Phal bastianii/mariae

cnycharles · Apr 18, 2009

I bought this plant from Jim Rice Orchids a while ago, it was labeled phal mariae. He had imported several phal species pre-cites, and had many mariaes that he would self and make outcrosses of. He also received some phal deltonii's, some of which I had purchased (and are now called phal bastianii as the name wasn't official). I don't remember how his mariae's looked, or if I ever saw any of the deltonii's/bastianii's, but the flowers on this plant look more like phal bastianii. It is very possible tags got switched in the greenhouse. I am also wondering if this plant might be an accidental hybrid of mariae and bastianii, so if there is anyone who can really tell the difference between the two I'd be happy to hear from you! It is really flowering this year, more than triple the number of buds/flowers that it's had before.

I have Eric Christensen's Phal Species Monograph and from most descriptions and pictures, it sounds like phal bastianii more than mariae. Other plants that I have labeled mariae look a bit different, but they haven't flowered yet.

Yoyo_Jo · Apr 18, 2009

Wow, congrats on those blooms, they make a gorgeous display. :clap:

Rick · Apr 18, 2009

Charles
There seems to be allot of variation amongst the variations of mariae and bastianii

This particular flower looks quite a bit different from Tom Harper's awarded bastianii which virtually has red bands across the petals. The flowers of his bastianii are smaller (but more numerous per spike) than various mariae I've seen.

That being said I've seen many other "bastianii" that look much more like your flower. Tom Harper is an AOS judge and phal specialist. You might contact him and see what he thinks.

Kyle · Apr 18, 2009

My guess is that you have a hybrid.

The flowers are cupped, but not enough to be marie, and the spike is to verticle, but not striaght up and down enough to be bastiani. Bastiani has very flat flowers.

Cruise over to peter lins phal forum. This differences are discussed quite ofter and there are more then enough photo comparisions there.

Kyle

Candace · Apr 18, 2009

Beautiful!

cnycharles · Apr 18, 2009

Kyle said:
My guess is that you have a hybrid.

The flowers are cupped, but not enough to be marie, and the spike is to verticle, but not striaght up and down enough to be bastiani. Bastiani has very flat flowers.

Cruise over to peter lins phal forum. This differences are discussed quite ofter and there are more then enough photo comparisions there.

Kyle

*sigh* yes, I agree with these observations... I was actually on peter's site earlier looking at pics of bastianii, most looked more 'round' than star-shaped. that said there were others that did look like this plant, I think I'll contact a judge to see what they think. It does have nice flowers but I probably haven't had a mariae live and flower and the other bastianii that I had from Rice's isn't alive anymore

SlipperFan · Apr 18, 2009

Then I wonder about mine. It's labelled mariae: I think I bought it from Oak Hill.

cnycharles · Apr 18, 2009

well, christenson says that mariae has pendant flower spikes, and strongly recurved sepals/petals; bastianii has upright spikes and flat flowers. mariae is supposed to have lots of trichomes on the lip, bastianii few.

now, that said, the pictures of mariae in christenson's book are pretty flat, I don't see that much recurving. looking again at christenson's descriptions it looks more like mariae than bastianii. it looks like the flower in your picture is on an upright spike and has a flat flower. it also has lots of trichomes on the lip!
(I have a headache...)

this reminds me of what aggravation flower i.d. is from trying to tell different grades of fall-flowering species of spiranthes apart, that likely have introgression between species. sometimes I think certain plants/species have too many mixed genes and our trying to fit them into a shoebox doesn't work so well

I also looked at more pictures of bastianii's on peter's site, there were plants there called bastianii that had flat inflorescences, lots of trichomes on the lip, and things like that that are supposed to be signs of mariae. I'm not convinced of anything, really, but don't know what is a 'real' mariae or bastianii. christenson does say that it's likely there are only a few real mariae in cultivation

SlipperFan · Apr 18, 2009

It sure gives me a headache, also!
The truth is, I think the spikes are a bit pendant. I usually bring them upright to conserve space.

Kyle · Apr 18, 2009

Yes, thats bastianii. I think Oak Hill is one of the main nurseries spreading the miss-labled plants. Mine came indirectly from there.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with bastianii.

Kyle

cnycharles · Apr 18, 2009

her flowers, though have lots of trichomes on the lip; isn't that supposed to be a sign of mariae or isn't that a good thing to go by? the picture in christenson's book of bastianii shows very few trichomes, also it has just as much if not more recurving of the sepals and petals as the pictures of mariae
???

Orchidzrule · Apr 18, 2009

I was all set to say I bought one from a vendor who, in turn, had bought it from Oak Hill, but I see Kyle beat me to it! He & I bought from the same vendor a few years back. Mine has yet to bloom, but I'm sure it will be the same--bastiani mislabelled as mariae. Mind you, both are great looking flowers. If mine would ever bloom...

Rick · Apr 18, 2009

Man I just looked at a bunch of pictures of both species on phals.net, and there is so much variation in color form and structure within each concept, I can't tell a thing.

Also at one point, bastianii was considered just a form of leudmaniani. If you check out that species, then you have a total mess.

SlipperFan · Apr 19, 2009

Is this another case of splitter vs. lumper?

cnycharles · Apr 19, 2009

it's tough to say; I've read that there are at least three different color forms of mariae probably depending on location, and bastianii isn't that far away as far as where it grows in comparison to mariae. it could be like the spiranthes that though not exactly the same thing, they are diverging and have lots of things mixed up. also plants in cultivation were probably all called mariae, and used for making outcrosses and are now different grades of hybrids; you take a wide mix of colors/shapes and then cross a few together and all around and it could be very tough to tell what is exactly what (unfortunately). to top it off, I was consoling myself that at least the mariae I had from oak hill would be a mariae, and here I hear that they are likely bastianii!

oh my aching head! this is why I didn't want to get into buying plants like phal cornu cervi and it's near neighbors pantherina and the others, and now these dark forms. I bought a phal pantherina from a usually reputable source, and later have been told that it actually is probably a nice cornu cervi, and that the cornu cervi I have could be a line bred creation with possible mixes with other things in it.
when things in nature are too close together, it's too easy to start saying 'new species', 'new varieties', and have to try and buy a bunch of different things and hope you are getting what the label says, or that the plants aren't really anything different

Leo Schordje · Apr 20, 2009

Hey CHarles,
THe problem with comparing your plant to photos on the net is that many of the net photos are misidentified. Go to the source. Email Eric Christiansen the pictures of your flower, I know he is in town this week. I will send you his email address in a PM. It is best to base your identification on the species type description, not some 3rd partie's photos on the net.
Leo

cnycharles · Apr 20, 2009

good advice! I think the rounder plants with more white are mariaes, and the ones with more color mixed through are bastianii, though mariae is supposed to have three color forms (??)
thanks,
charles

SlipperFan · Apr 21, 2009

Eric Christiansen confirmed that the information and photos of bastianii and mariae on this website are true:
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/bernard...es%20mati%E8res/table%20des%20mati%E8res.html

Thanks to Wendy for calling my attention to this website.

cnycharles · Apr 21, 2009

hybrids

I did email Mr. Christenson last night, and he confirmed that both my and Dot's phals pictured here are hybrids. He also said that he then went to look at a bunch of internet sites with pictures, and none of them he looked at were mariaes, both the pictures of bastianii and mariae on Jay Pfahl's website are of bastianii, and one other site the plant pictured was neither but a lueddemanniana hybrid! So, accurate pictures are very hard to find.

He pointed out that the real point to look for to find mariae, is a pendant flower spike. As he put it, that doesn't mean horizontal or sloping down, but hanging right down like limp spaghetti! He also made some points about differences in shape of sepals and petals, but I guess if that spike isn't drooping right down then it definitely isn't a mariae. I guess for these species, if you want to know what it is before buying it, you need to see the parents or a plant that has already flowered or at least has put out a spike long enough to be able to droop. *sigh*

Sorry Dot! Looks like the mariae/bastianii I also have from oak hill is probably a hybrid as well.

Kyle · Apr 21, 2009

Thanks for posting the info.

I am curious to see my bastianii come into bloom again. It came from Oak Hill, but I did not see any evidence of maria in the flower. Plus the plant was ID in person by Olaf, who did the original description of the species. Unfortunatly I never took a picture of the flower, so I will have to wait till it blooms again. Fingures crossed.

Kyle

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