# Suspicious spots on Paphs



## The Mutant (Jan 19, 2015)

I'm trying to help a fellow member of the Swedish orchid forum identify what could be going on with two of her Paphs.

Here are the afflicted leaves in question:






Whatever it is it seems to be very slow spreading as she noticed it on her Gloria Naugle before summer and now she noticed the same thing on her Harold Koopowitz. It starts on the oldest leaves but I'll have to ask her if it spreads to the younger ones as well.

Both Paphs have been quarantined as a precaution. 

Since I see virus and mites everywhere right now, I don't dare to give a possible suggestion of what it could be. Does anyone have any idea? These are her most precious Paphs so she doesn't want to throw them away unless it's necessary.

Thanks for any input you might have.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 19, 2015)

Well, it is a bad news. 
I had the exact same thing happened this past summer.
I got hooked on Gloria Naugle and was in search for it.
One day, they came up on eBay and I bought a few.
All of them looked perfectly fine but the underside of the leaves (yes, I'm very thorough and check everywhere for any suspicious marks and presence of bugs) were like your friend's paph. 
They all had this, some were worse than others, and the worst one had almost all the leaves affected and the worst leaves had some of these spots appearing on the top side of the leaves as well.
I had no idea as they looked very different from any disease marks I had seen, but apparently they were not normal. 
I knew that because one, I already had perfectly "clean" Gloria Naugle, two I have never seen something like this on any of my paphs.

Well, I contacted the seller and she (or he) said how they were in the business for so long and they know that it is nothing to worry about but would refund the money if I sent them back.
Well, I should have sent them back because I was always worrying about the plants looking the way they did.
Well, I kept the plants and the symptom very slowly and steadily got worse and the plants were all in the garbage now. 

I bought one more GN from a different seller last year. Well, it had the same issue but very very minimal. So I did not think much of it.
Well, now after about 4 months, it is only getting worse. I cut off the affect leaf right away, but the new leaf will start showing spots shortly after.
I sprayed miticide thinking it might be done by some invisibly small mites of some sort. Well, it did not help, either. 
I'm thinking of pictching that one also. I hate it and they give me such headache.
I will just buy a flask of them (if I can find anywhere lol) and start fresh.

I see this similar things on one of my Delrosi.
My HK also shows very slight case of this.
I guess it might be something that many of the parvi X roth hybrids are susceptible to?
Whatever it is, I had the most terrible time ever with plants because of this!
I'm going to pitch them all. Absolutely disgusting! 
Well, I need more space for new plants and growing seedlings anyway. 

No more online shopping, at least unless I ask about the presence of spots on the leaves both underside and top, and have guarantee before buying.


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## SlipperFan (Jan 19, 2015)

It looks like sucking insect damage to me. Scale? Spider mites?


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## daniella3d (Jan 19, 2015)

yes it looks like insects bites. I had the same on one very much afflicted paph and after a treatment of imidacloprid and floramite, they are gone and the new shoots that are now quite big are all clean of it. There are 3 babies growing from this mother plant and all show no sign of it. I would treat your plants for insects.

Here is a picture of one of mine, showing the old groth fully infested, and the new growth, clean and healthy.


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## abax (Jan 19, 2015)

Can you get Orthene 97% wettable powder in Sweden?


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 20, 2015)

daniella3d said:


> yes it looks like insects bites. I had the same on one very much afflicted paph and after a treatment of imidacloprid and floramite, they are gone and the new shoots that are now quite big are all clean of it. There are 3 babies growing from this mother plant and all show no sign of it. I would treat your plants for insects.
> 
> Here is a picture of one of mine, showing the old groth fully infested, and the new growth, clean and healthy.



The marks are totally different, not the same at all.
I'm glad that your plant is fine now.


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## Ozpaph (Jan 20, 2015)

My initial impression is insect damage but an in-focus, close up would help a lot.


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## The Mutant (Jan 20, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Well, it is a bad news.
> I had the exact same thing happened this past summer.
> I got hooked on Gloria Naugle and was in search for it.
> One day, they came up on eBay and I bought a few.
> ...


Funny part is that my Delrosi brought something similar into my collection. It turned out to be false spider mites which I am still battling. They've ignored the Delrosi this time around and killed my Neo and chewed on my lowii instead. All the new leaves and the new growth on the Delrosi are blemish free.

I don't know if you also had false spider mites or not, but that seems to be what mine had and what parts of my collection still has.

Interesting that all of us has had it on parvi/roth hybrids.




SlipperFan said:


> It looks like sucking insect damage to me. Scale? Spider mites?


I'm glad you said it and not me. Spider mites was my first thought when I saw the damage, but I see mites everywhere right now. She wiped the undersides of the leaves but they came away clean. I'll ask her if she has a magnifier so she can check the plants thoroughly.




abax said:


> Can you get Orthene 97% wettable powder in Sweden?


Unless it's sold under a different name, it doesn't seem like it.




Ozpaph said:


> My initial impression is insect damage but an in-focus, close up would help a lot.


I've asked about better pictures, but she said this was the best she could do. I'll ask her again though because it would really help.


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## The Mutant (Jan 20, 2015)

Here's a close-up of one of the leaves:


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## Bjorn (Jan 20, 2015)

Rust?.....could intolerance to iron be something to look into?...


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## TyroneGenade (Jan 20, 2015)

Downy mildew? "leaves might look yellow at first, but a brownish-black mold is then likely to appear on the underside." according to http://www.dispatch.com/content/sto...10/07/11/ohio-basil-threatened-by-mildew.html

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downy_mildew 

The alternative is Rust, which is a virus... but lets go forward with the fungal infection hypothesis for now.


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## The Mutant (Jan 20, 2015)

TyroneGenade said:


> Downy mildew? "leaves might look yellow at first, but a brownish-black mold is then likely to appear on the underside." according to http://www.dispatch.com/content/sto...10/07/11/ohio-basil-threatened-by-mildew.html
> 
> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downy_mildew
> 
> The alternative is Rust, which is a virus... but lets go forward with the fungal infection hypothesis for now.


It's a virus? I've read it's a fungus. 

Rust diseases


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## TyroneGenade (Jan 20, 2015)

Oops, sorry, you are right. Rust is a fungus... Senile moment. Sorry.


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## Bjorn (Jan 21, 2015)

Think you got me wrong; rust aka iron hydroxide, spots due to iron poisoning. Some species/provenances have a almost allergic reacton to iron. I do not know wheter this could be something like it but..... Also, too acid substrate can make iron and manganese too easily available and turn a normal amount poisonous. If I am not wrong, these hybrids are of species from limestone areas, or regions with low availability of iron sooo


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## Bjorn (Jan 21, 2015)

Found it!
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23168&highlight=iron&page=3
Not exactly as in the Pictures but a problem might have different manifestations. So perhaps? One last question, the soil that the plant grows in, what is the pH?


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## TyroneGenade (Jan 21, 2015)

That is an interesting idea, Bjorn. If so, raising the pH of the potting medium should prevent a reoccurrence of the symptoms.

Since multiple plants are involved, perhaps we can do an experiment: treat some for fungus and some for iron toxicity and then we see what works... Not a very rigorous experiment, and probably not producing any general hypotheses, but it would be more effective than treating all the plants the same and then seeing them all die because you lost the 50/50 bet on fungus vs toxicity.


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## Ozpaph (Jan 21, 2015)

looks like mites etc


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## gonewild (Jan 21, 2015)

Bjorn said:


> Some species/provenances have a almost allergic reacton to iron.



Can you expand on what other orchids are known to have iron toxicity beyond what is mentioned by Roth in the link?


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## Bjorn (Jan 21, 2015)

Sorry Lance, I should have written that according to Roth...... Its not my idea. but it can make sense that some species growing on limecliffs can have a lower tolerance for micronutrients than species that grow acid. Simply due to the solubilty/availability issue. Those on lime must be much more effective in their uptake than those on ultramafic soil (high Fe, high pH) or lower pH soils (easier accessibilty of Fe). But you are right, there is not much to prove that assumption.


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## gonewild (Jan 21, 2015)

Bjorn said:


> Sorry Lance, I should have written that according to Roth...... Its not my idea. but it can make sense that some species growing on limecliffs can have a lower tolerance for micronutrients than species that grow acid. Simply due to the solubilty/availability issue. Those on lime must be much more effective in their uptake than those on ultramafic soil (high Fe, high pH) or lower pH soils (easier accessibilty of Fe). But you are right, there is not much to prove that assumption.



It seems logical to me also, that's why I asked if you knew more about it...I'm interested. The use of excess amounts and combinations of different nutrients may be the cause of many instances of "infections". Just like in this case where it looks like insect damage but there are no insects present or it looks like fungus but does not respond to fungicide.


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## Bjorn (Jan 21, 2015)

Ihave looked a bit into the web, but have not found much on the topic, so I cling to this idea without proof.but it seems more and more likely to me that traditional feeding regimes jave been one important promotor of many of the problems seen in paph.(orchid) culture.
Also the more I look into these things, the more I get convinced that mcuh of the effect seen with eg kelp is due to the chelating action of the relatively high amount of aminoacids it contains. Those chelates are seemingly important for the transport through the cell membranes and i to the roots. Next step might be adding micros to kelp juice and feed with that??


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## gonewild (Jan 21, 2015)

Bjorn said:


> Ihave looked a bit into the web, but have not found much on the topic, so I cling to this idea without proof.but it seems more and more likely to me that traditional feeding regimes jave been one important promotor of many of the problems seen in paph.(orchid) culture.
> Also the more I look into these things, the more I get convinced that mcuh of the effect seen with eg kelp is due to the chelating action of the relatively high amount of aminoacids it contains. Those chelates are seemingly important for the transport through the cell membranes and i to the roots. Next step might be adding micros to kelp juice and feed with that??



I agree completely, this is the track I have been on. I don't know much about amino acids but I know that lichens do excrete amino acids among other compounds. Perhaps other organisms produce chelate like compounds that are not even yet identified and these compounds are what orchids derive the nutrients from in Nature. Dissolved nutrients as salts obviously supply nutrients but perhaps these salts in our normal high doses cause reactions and issues that look like a disease but is not caused by a pathogen. The theory that Roth gives about Iron fits this very well. And theories like this begin to explain symptoms like these strange spots on the Paph.


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## Bjorn (Jan 21, 2015)

Think we are in line there.
B


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## orcoholic (Jan 21, 2015)

Orthene 97 wettable powder is now labeled as acephate 97 and is a very inexpensive, albeit smelly, insecticide. It is an effective contact insecticied with no systemic or translaminar action.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 21, 2015)

TyroneGenade said:


> Downy mildew? "leaves might look yellow at first, but a brownish-black mold is then likely to appear on the underside." according to http://www.dispatch.com/content/sto...10/07/11/ohio-basil-threatened-by-mildew.html
> 
> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downy_mildew
> 
> The alternative is Rust, which is a virus... but lets go forward with the fungal infection hypothesis for now.



The article says and shows pictures that it is black mold, which grows on the surface of the leaf underside.
This dark brown spotting issues on the underside of GN and Delrosi we're talking about is not mold but rather they appear inside the leaf tissue.
If you look very closely, these marks have almost black center which is very very very small, and this center is surrounded by brown area.
I wiped them but they don't come off. They are not mold.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 21, 2015)

Bjorn said:


> Found it!
> http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23168&highlight=iron&page=3
> Not exactly as in the Pictures but a problem might have different manifestations. So perhaps? One last question, the soil that the plant grows in, what is the pH?



Most of the pictures on that thread are gone and the ones I do see have marks that are vastly different than the ones we're talking about here.


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## The Mutant (Jan 21, 2015)

Bjorn said:


> Found it!
> http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23168&highlight=iron&page=3
> Not exactly as in the Pictures but a problem might have different manifestations. So perhaps? One last question, the soil that the plant grows in, what is the pH?


It's alkaline apparently, so I guess mites and/or rust fungus are the most possible alternatives? Should I tell her to treat with miticide and fungicide?


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## mrhappyrotter (Jan 21, 2015)

I'm just going to say it (haven't read the whole thread yet), but Neem is my latest go-to weapon, and while it has its cons, I'm starting to like it.

So, I guess what I'm saying is, if you have spots of any kind, consider adding a routine & preventative Neem routine to your collection. From my (admittedly anecdotal) experience, it seems to be able to prevent the spread of bacterial and fungal pathogens. It's also effective against leaf-living pests.

Just be mindful that not all plants tolerate treatment with Neem, so do your research first. I'm confident its safe on slippers, but there are reports that it can cause issues with dendrobiums and other plants in general.


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## The Mutant (Jan 21, 2015)

mrhappyrotter said:


> I'm just going to say it (haven't read the whole thread yet), but Neem is my latest go-to weapon, and while it has its cons, I'm starting to like it.
> 
> So, I guess what I'm saying is, if you have spots of any kind, consider adding a routine & preventative Neem routine to your collection. From my (admittedly anecdotal) experience, it seems to be able to prevent the spread of bacterial and fungal pathogens. It's also effective against leaf-living pests.
> 
> Just be mindful that not all plants tolerate treatment with Neem, so do your research first. I'm confident its safe on slippers, but there are reports that it can cause issues with dendrobiums and other plants in general.


The funny thing is that I recently purchased Neem oil and have used it on two Paphs recently (the lowii that showed sign of having had unwanted guests again for example). Since apparently my culture isn't optimal, I need to add some sort of preventative treatment and also try to improve my culture as much as possible. 

But my issues with my Paphs is not what this thread is about (talking to myself here), but my fellow forum member. I still don't know what to recommend that she should do, except treating against mites and fungi are probably good ideas.


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