# Sophronitis coccinea 4n



## monocotman (Sep 30, 2012)

Hi,

bought this plant in the spring from Popow and this is the 2nd flower though the first of several to come this autumn. I just love the flower - it is a clear 'disa' red and sparkles in the sun. Also so flat it looks like it's been ironed. 
In addition, though you cannot see it, there is a 2nd flower on the same stem.
The plant is in pure sphagnum moss which is actively growing.
I use rain water and Akerne's rainmix to feed. It seems to love it. 
The comments in another thread about using actively growing moss seem to be borne out here.
There are 8 more growths to come over the winter and so far they are all 'chunky' so should each have a flower.
It did well in our soggy cool summer in the unheated greenhouse and is now back on the kitchen windowsill. 
The cool temperatures and good light aren't a problem but I was worried that it would need a higher level of humidity that I could give it but so far, so good,

Regards,

David


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## SlipperFan (Sep 30, 2012)

Beautiful flower -- that looks like a really good one.


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## Erythrone (Sep 30, 2012)

A very nice one!


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## John M (Sep 30, 2012)

It is REALLY RED! Beautiful!!!! I've never heard of a Soph. coccinea producing anything other than a single flower per growth. That leads me to think that this might possibly be a hybrid.....something might have been crossed with a coccinea a few generations ago to give this very coccinea looking flower with the multifloral characteristic.

BTW: You might get more comments about this thread if you post it in the "Non Slipper Orchid Photographs" section, where more people will see it.


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## Ozpaph (Oct 1, 2012)

John M said:


> It is REALLY RED! Beautiful!!!! I've never heard of a Soph. coccinea producing anything other than a single flower per growth. That leads me to think that this might possibly be a hybrid.....something might have been crossed with a coccinea a few generations ago to give this very coccinea looking flower with the multifloral characteristic.



I think he means second flowering not 2 flowers io a spike.
Its lovely and well grown.
Thanks for the cultural tips.


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## monocotman (Oct 1, 2012)

*coccinea 4n*

John - not sure how to move the post - there isn't the facility in 'edit'.
The plant comes originally from Japan where these were all developed.
Orchid web have a nice video on youtube which explains about their development.
They were first line bred for improved flowers then finally converted into tetraploids.
The resulting plants are easier to grow than the original species, being more temperature tolerant( not usually necessary in the UK) and vigorous.
This plant has smaller flowers than some you can see on the web but I'm very happy with it.
There is a mention that they can occasionally produce 2 flowers, so I'm not sure that it has any hybrid blood in it.
The great thing is that this plant will be in flower for the next 6 months.
Each flower lasts ages and the younger growths will be out soon.
It seems to love being kept fairly damp and growing in moss and has sent up multiple leads.
David


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## John M (Oct 1, 2012)

Ozpaph; at the beginning of the second paragraph, David does say "In addition, though you cannot see it, there is a 2nd flower on the same stem."

David: Well, it certainly does look like pure coccinea..... a really, really good one. I can't see any other evidence of possible hybrid contamination other than the double bloom on one stem characteristic you mentioned. Perhaps the line breeding and/or the converstion to 4n gives them a bit of extra vigour to enable them to put out a second flower. If you're confident of the source and the provinence of the plant itself, then, I'd go with the idea of it being pure bred, just a very special, vigorous clone. I know one thing; I'd love to get my hands on some of these Japanese 4n coccineas too! They are true eye candy!


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## monocotman (Oct 1, 2012)

*coccinea 4n*

John - thanks - I'll post a photo of the 2nd flower when it opens.
These 4n's are generally available in Europe and the USA - not sure about Canada. You should be able to source one soon if not now.
I don't think this clone is particularly good - there are some amazing ones out there if you google for them. It is just that the line breeding and 4n conversion has produced a much bigger flower.
The Tokyo Orchid Nursery has some very nice and very expensive clones.
I seem to be keeping mine wetter than the ones in the orchid web video.
Not sure whether this is OK long term but so far so good,
Regards,
David


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## NYEric (Oct 1, 2012)

John M said:


> I'd love to get my hands on some of these Japanese 4n coccineas too!



At the typical price you will only be able to get one _"hand"_ on them! :evil:


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## monocotman (Oct 1, 2012)

*coccinea 4n*

Eric,
they're a bit cheaper in Europe.
I bought this one for about £40 and it has about 12 mature growths,
David


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## Ozpaph (Oct 2, 2012)

John M said:


> Ozpaph; at the beginning of the second paragraph, David does say "In addition, though you cannot see it, there is a 2nd flower on the same stem."



Thank-you for the correction.


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## neo-guy (Oct 2, 2012)

2 flowers on S. coccinea is not that rare anymore. I have several plants that exhibit this feature. Most of the ones you see these days are either triploids or tetraploids. And yes, the best line bred ones are coming out of Japan now. They seem to grow them like weeds there!
The key to growing them successfully is to have a good root system. They only form roots once a year in the fall. I have found they are better off on the dry side than constantly wet. 
Pete


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## Cheyenne (Oct 2, 2012)

I have seen them a few places. Orchid inn sticks out in my mind. And they are 4N from Japan.


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## JeanLux (Oct 7, 2012)

A Beauty !!!! Jean


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## Roth (Oct 7, 2012)

John M said:


> It is REALLY RED! Beautiful!!!! I've never heard of a Soph. coccinea producing anything other than a single flower per growth. That leads me to think that this might possibly be a hybrid.....something might have been crossed with a coccinea a few generations ago to give this very coccinea looking flower with the multifloral characteristic.
> 
> BTW: You might get more comments about this thread if you post it in the "Non Slipper Orchid Photographs" section, where more people will see it.



The Japanese strain of Sophronitis coccinea usually produces 2 flowers per spike. It is a Doctor whose name I forgot who started the line breeding of coccinea. There was an article in the AOS bulletin. He bought the finest specimens around, got the seeds colchicine treated, and started his line that way. A good specimen in Japan usually sells for 350-500USD, sometimes up to a couple thousands USD. The Tokyo Orchids Nursery website has a selection of selected plants, priced accordingly...

Unfortunately, the diploid coccinea have nearly vanished in Europe, and that's the ones most people need to make some hybrids to start with... and when people try to improve the xanthina and the pure white forms of coccinea...


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## abax (Oct 8, 2012)

Oh my, this flower is the definition of RED and gorgeous.


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## monocotman (Oct 8, 2012)

*coccinea 4n*

Roth,

thanks for the information.
I'm quite happy to buy the 'runts' of this strain for £30-£40 if they're all like this.
The selected Japanese plants appear to have wider petals than this clone as well as being larger.
Popow has had quite a few for sale on ebay over the last 6 months and I must admit to having bought another smaller plant.
The 2nd flower has opened as is expanding but may not reach the size of the first. I'll post a photo soon.
The first flower has a final petal width of just over 5.5cm and seems to have stopped growing,
Regards,
David


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## Roth (Oct 8, 2012)

monocotman said:


> Roth,
> 
> thanks for the information.
> I'm quite happy to buy the 'runts' of this strain for £30-£40 if they're all like this.
> ...



Popow had two batches,

One out of a selfing of unselected coccinea 4n from Japan, from maybe 10 years ago, the selfing was done by Orchideen Wlodarczyk.

More recent ones that he imported from Japan, that are a couple generaton further, and with better parents ( the selected ones, then the selected ones again crossed together).

Honestly the 'runts' can be as good as some of the Japanese highly selected ones. The trend in Japan for those is goofy, extra wide petals, that makes a non flat flower, but still filling a circle, and no windows between the petals. Those are the most expensive, but we prefer a flatter, full form for us Westerners... and those are cheaper.


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## monocotman (Oct 8, 2012)

*coccinea 4n*

Roth -thanks - your knowledge is encyclopaedic!
You're right - I do prefer the flat flower that I grow to the ruffled ones with extremely wide petals. I love the balance of the flower and the size ratio of the petals to sepals.
Seems like everyone is happy.
If it contines to grow and flower at it's current rate then in a couple of years....wow.
We can all dream!
David


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## andre (Oct 9, 2012)

For Canadians you can get them for Tropical Orchid Gardens. They are from Japan and were hand picked and are very lovely and easy to grow. Definitely not as fussy as the regular type.


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## monocotman (Oct 9, 2012)

*coccinea 4n*

Roth -thinking about it from a breeding point of view, the strain should become more uniform and consistent as it goes through successive generations of line breeding.
It isn't surprising that the unselected clones are this good,
David


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## mormodes (Oct 9, 2012)

Tom Perlite at Golden Gate Orchids has ones with a huge, dark stripe at the mid-rib of the leaf. I think I paid $60 for one. Or was it $40? I can't recall being in orchid-heat at the time. Potted in sphagnum and clay pots. Whether these are the same as the ones under discussion I don't know, but they are impressive.


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