# ease of growing besseae



## Amy (Mar 29, 2008)

I would like to know how easy is it to grow and bloom Phrag besseae in the "house" conditions??

I don't want to waste money on buying one if it needs special living and blooming conditions??

Amy


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## rdlsreno (Mar 29, 2008)

Good humidity with good moist media (SH) using RO (reverse osmosis) water. Good light 1,000 FC and intermediate temperature. Hope this helps.

Ramon


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## Heather (Mar 29, 2008)

I grow mine in a bark mix, use distilled water (or rainwater), fertilize every week or two and give it good (south) facing light. I've always found them pretty easy as far as Phrags go, though not everyone does...


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## kentuckiense (Mar 29, 2008)

Heather said:


> I grow mine in a bark mix, use distilled water (or rainwater), fertilize every week or two and give it good (south) facing light. I've always found them pretty easy as far as Phrags go, though not everyone does...



Pretty much the same way I grow mine. I've found 'em to be pretty easy.


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## Amy (Mar 29, 2008)

Thank all, I was under the impression that these Phrags had to be in a cool room in order to survive and bloom.

Can you tell me, are the plants of these orchids small or do they get huge light most Phrags??

Also, how long do they bloom for??

Cheers,
Amy


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## Heather (Mar 29, 2008)

They don't get too huge - it's a smaller growing species and I haven't found that the ones I've had have been prone to clumping - mine tends to bloom on each mature growth, and then by the time the next new growth is mature, the older one dies back. 

They like bright light - cooler temps will often cause them to bloom a brighter shade of red but they should do fine in normal household temps. 

Because they bloom sequentially, they can bloom for many months, one bloom after the next. I find they tend to generally have 4-7 buds over time.


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## Amy (Mar 29, 2008)

Sounds lovely. Now I have a question for you all. The place I am going to order from has a few different "besseae". But out of these two which one would you choose for ease of growing, blooming etc in the home with normal window light??

Phrag Prissy (St. Quen x besseae)

or 

Phrag besseae "Wings of fire x self"


Some of the besseae crosses don't have that definate shape of the besseae itself so the first one is the only one I could find from this vendor that would be the close form type.

Amy


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## Heather (Mar 29, 2008)

Prissy is a hybrid - and not an easy one to find, so I'd do both, personally. But I'm a dangerous girl...bad to ask, really! And that's especially true when besseae is involved as it is a favorite of mine. Just be glad Eric from NY is out of town today - then you'd really get an earful! He was searching for Prissy for ages!

Wings of Fire is a known cross of the species besseae and should do well for you also. But, if you are nervous about the species, start with the hybrid and see how you do, as it will be a bit easier. 

Prissy is about 3/4 besseae species, so it's a good one to practice on. St. Ouen is besseae x Hanne Popow, Hanne Popow is besseae x schlimii. So, there's a lot of besseae in Phrag. Prissy. 

If you had to choose only one, I'd go with Prissy - grow it, practice on it, then get a besseae. Or just get both now!

oh, both should stay fairly small also, 12-18" leafspan at the most, likely. Being that there is no longifolium or sargeantianum in the background helps to keep the plants down in size.


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## smartie2000 (Mar 29, 2008)

Prissy can be red or pink. The one they brought in bloom for sale at the show was a delicate salmon pink, though they have several in bud that time.


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## Candace (Mar 29, 2008)

Get both plants to save yourself the trouble of deciding. You're welcome.:>


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## Amy (Mar 29, 2008)

Thanks for the replies. I am only able to get "one" so this will be tough.

Phrag Prissy looks very nice, is it the same form of flower at besseae??

I just want to make the right decision and out of the two the easier on for me to start with.

Amy


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## kentuckiense (Mar 29, 2008)

I always hear of people killing Phrag. Prissy.


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## smartie2000 (Mar 30, 2008)

The one paramount brought at the sales table was besseae form. So imagine a salmon pink besseae....I almost bought it! I don't know how I resisted

The culture is probably very close to besseae. Maybe the breeding has given some vigor, but proper culture is what will keep it alive. 
I think it depends on luck too. I had bought a besseae that is not a very good grower (maybe I need to change something), but a Waunakee Sunset (75% besseae, 25%fischerii, very similar to Prissy) is a good grower. Both of them grow in sphag moss and came from the same person.

Now looking through Paramount's catalogue: For something that is compact and vigorous try the Ecua-bess or Mary Bess they are offering. Don Wimber will probably also be vigorous (and more besseae shaped), though some plants may get a little larger. These sorts of hybrids are easier to grow usually. My ecua bess is a weedy grower and the plant is not too big. Scarlet O'Hara would have been my first choice for a besseae shaped, but I do not know why they are not available (and I have not bothered asking yet...)


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## Amy (Mar 30, 2008)

Fren,

Hi, have you ever ordered from Clouds Orchids??

I have ordered most of my plant from Paramount, my only complaint is the most of the stuff you order is seedlings and so small.

I am going to think about the Phrags though, thank you very much for the great info though.

Now I have a question for you. I absolutley love the bellatulum paph and have one that is doing very well. I hope for a bloom real soon.

Now, I would love to get a couple more paphs but they have to be the bellatulum shape and a cross with them would be great too.

From the two places, Clouds and Paramount do you have any recommendations there??

Amy


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## NYEric (Mar 30, 2008)

Hi! Phrag besseae or Prissy you say? Neither of them are especially easy. It's the other species that make besseae type phrags easy to grow. Waunakee Sunset can have a similar shape. If you want to pick something similar Mt. Maid is nice; Hanne Popow is similar and usually fragrant. You can look up infrageneric hybrids in the Phragweb site. JP Faust is in Canada and Orchids by Kimberly are 2 other Candian vendors [+ phrag guy here should have some for sale]. And Heather its another apricot colored Prisssy that I've been trying to get.


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## smartie2000 (Mar 30, 2008)

I have order a lot from Cloud's orchids and I do recommend them. I believe they truely know what they are doing when it comes to the genetics of their plants. My paphs and phrags I got last year are still growing... I am assuming cloud's phrags won't be huge because they seem to be recent additions to their catalogue. Their blooming size plants are large!

I have seen Paramount's orchids at shows and they do not bring small phrags to shows, all blooming size. I cannot testify for mail orders, though Todd or someone might (I think todd recieved one in spike). I can always deal with them in person because they come to Edmonton for society meetings

I also get some nice phrags from a local phrag grower, Chuck. I don't think he mails his plants around regularly (which is why I don't see his email posted online), but I am sure he won't mind emailing what he has to say about phrag culture and perhaps sending a plant...he is a silent member here too


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## NYEric (Mar 30, 2008)

Lurker! Oh I forgot, Phrag Saint Ouen has similar shape and seems easier to grow, plus comes in variety of colors!


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## Amy (Mar 30, 2008)

Okay, now that I have all the phrag stuff straight, will have to think about it for a while.

Back to Clouds, they have an orchid I have been wanting. Paph concolor, anyone have this orchid??

I have bellatulum and wanted concolor soooooo bad. Any feed back about it??

Amy


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## smartie2000 (Mar 30, 2008)

I just bought a concolor and bellatulum this orchid show....I haven't been growing many brachysepalums They like good water quality and can take low light. From what I heard on this forum concolor is supposed to be easy to grow.

My Vanda M. Pearman (bellatulum x delanatii) is in low spike . It has been a easy grower. Some of them turn out odd, but mine was nice last time it bloomed. The brachy look is very dominate in this cross


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## Amy (Mar 31, 2008)

See the problem is Cloud has the concolor and you have to place a 50.00 order with them. When you only want the one orchid that is not easy to do. However, there is a friend of mine here that has placed a huge order with them to be shipped in May so if they have it in stock I might get them to put it with her order.

I love the look of the Paph Vanda M Pearman, but do you think it would look to much like the bellatulum colors??

Another not brachy orchid that has caught my eye is Paph armeniacum, what do you think of this one??

As you can tell I love the color yellow.

Amy


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## smartie2000 (Mar 31, 2008)

Paph Vanda M. Pearman will be very much like betatullum. Mine is white and faintly spotted with pink (the parent bellatum was albino) and pouch like a bellatum. Some can be boldly spotted too.

Paph armenicum requires a cool winter to bloom which should not be a huge issue with Canadian winters. It is a parvisepalum which can take more light than brachys. It can also gets many stolonous growths so some growers place them in baskets or wide pots. I am sold that sphag and hanging basket is a good method of culture and I am going to try it myself with the ones I have when I find a basket. I think you said you are close to Vancouver...I wonder if they will grow outside for you, they can handle near freezing.

Armenicum hybrids are also gorgeous and should be easier to bloom. I would love to have a armenicum x concolor.

IMO $25 for a seedling sized concolor is a lot, but only because you can get larger sized at a similar price if you search (maybe locally). However I do trust clouds imports good flasks that are selected for quality flowers and perhaps worth the money and the wait.


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## NYEric (Mar 31, 2008)

Armeniacum species are not easy to bloom, try a hybrid.


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## Amy (Mar 31, 2008)

Thank you both. I think I should just sit tight then. What I should do first of all is get my bellatulum to bloom first then think about getting something else.

Thanks for the info about Armeniacum, I will pass on this one for now.

The $25 for concolor is a bit steep I do agree especially when you have to wait for a couple of years like my bellatulum for a bloom.

Will keep my eyes open though and will have to take in a show for sure.

Amy


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## Candace (Mar 31, 2008)

> The $25 for concolor is a bit steep



$25 for a concolor is rather inexpensive.


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## Amy (Mar 31, 2008)

It is not really the price for me that matters so much it is the size of the plant. I ordered 4 seedlings from a vendor and all I have left is the bellatulum which is a nice size now after 2 years.

I lost one I just loved the look of and it was niveum.

So I am a bit reluctant to order seedlings again unelss they are quite a size.

Say does anyone here have Paph deperle???


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## smartie2000 (Mar 31, 2008)

I bought my deperle from paramount orchids. It's a easy grower and easily available...
Forestview gardens is also a orchid vendor who specializes in paphs and close to your area. They sell well grown plants.


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## Gilda (Mar 31, 2008)

I have Paph concolor..it is easy to grow and bloom...blooms last a long time. Paph armeniacum I believe is harder to grow & bloom especially for a beginner. Paph deperle is easy for me...a good beginner paph.


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## Kyle (Mar 31, 2008)

i've been out of town for a bit, so I havne't read this thread. I'll try and comment on what I've read.

Ameniacum is harder to bloom then concolor.

Candace, I went to my first show in california last month (poe) and was blown away at how different it was from any canadian show. For 25 you could get a in bloom paph species. In canada, you get a seedling 2-3 years from bloom. So, it is steep in Canada. We don't have producers who grow large numbers of paphs.

Clouds has good plants at good prices. In my opinion they have always been bigger then expected.

Paramounts has an excellent selection, and thier phargs are big- multigrowth.

JP faust is, in my opinion, the best in CAnada. Best selection, best prices, big plants. Remember, he is the breeder, does all the lab work and growing. Everyone else in canada buys flasks or compots to re sell. Russell on this forum does his own breeding and flasking, but not on the scale as JP. 

Chuck AKA fat old bald guy orchids, from edmonton does some of his own breeding, but also brings some flask in from the states (chuck acker stuff) and sells seedling sometimes. I don't know about his shipping policy. 

The above are all good, honest guys.

Orchids by kimberly has a good selection and she is very knowledgable, but in my experience, her plants never have roots.. When you buy from her, it is an uphill battle to establish the plants. And her prices are on the high end of the bell curve , especially for what you get.

There are a lot of US vendor that come to canadian shows that can bring plants for you. Sam tsui is coming to vancouver next month, Bloomfield does lots of shows in the east. Norito hasagawa does Calgary quite often. And Ecuagenera can send phrags from many of the shows they do.

This weekend in Vancouver, Sun Moon orchids from Vancouver had in bud bellatulum and concolor for $15.

If you want something ask on the forum and someone should be able to tell you where to get it from in Canada.

Kyle



NYEric said:


> Hi! Phrag besseae or Prissy you say? Neither of them are especially easy. It's the other species that make besseae type phrags easy to grow. Waunakee Sunset can have a similar shape. If you want to pick something similar Mt. Maid is nice; Hanne Popow is similar and usually fragrant. You can look up infrageneric hybrids in the Phragweb site. JP Faust is in Canada and Orchids by Kimberly are 2 other Candian vendors [+ phrag guy here should have some for sale]. And Heather its another apricot colored Prisssy that I've been trying to get.


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## Kyle (Mar 31, 2008)

Amy said:


> It is not really the price for me that matters so much it is the size of the plant. I ordered 4 seedlings from a vendor and all I have left is the bellatulum which is a nice size now after 2 years.
> 
> I lost one I just loved the look of and it was niveum.
> 
> ...



Seedling arn't for beginners. 

Forestview gardens has deperle. He ships, but isn't very far from you, in aggasi BC. His selction isn't fantastic, but his plants are excellent. If you are looking for Ho Chi Minh in canada, he is the best source.

Kyle


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## Amy (Apr 1, 2008)

This weekend in Vancouver, Sun Moon orchids from Vancouver had in bud bellatulum and concolor for $15.

Oh Kyle I did not need to hear this. Oh my gosh, I could have had my friends that live there get it and sent it to me. Darn.

I do have bellatulum and it growing very well, waiting for the bloom now. I really wanted to add concolor along side with my bellatulum as I love yellow. 

So my question to you is, do you know of anyone close to me besides Clouds that has this orchid (concolor)???

Clouds has it in a seedling size $25, I don't know if their seedling size is the same as Paramounts which are very small seedlings. But I am waiting to hear from Clouds as to their size on it.

Amy


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## Jorch (Apr 1, 2008)

Hi Amy,

If you can wait until May, you can either try to attend the Vancouver show or ask one of your friends (or me) to pick one up for you. Sun Moon is returning for the Vancouver show, I believe.. as well as other vendors that probably would have a blooming size brachy around $20-25.


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## Amy (Apr 1, 2008)

Jorch said:


> Hi Amy,
> 
> If you can wait until May, you can either try to attend the Vancouver show or ask one of your friends (or me) to pick one up for you. Sun Moon is returning for the Vancouver show, I believe.. as well as other vendors that probably would have a blooming size brachy around $20-25.




Thanks for the offer, where do you live???

Amy


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## Jorch (Apr 1, 2008)

Vancouver. I will be volunteering at the show as well as attending it.


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## Amy (Apr 1, 2008)

That is great, I will keep you in mind for sure. Say, can I ask you a question about the shows in the Vancouver area. Which one is the best one to attend?? 

I know there are a few there some in the fall too.

Amy


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## Hien (Apr 1, 2008)

Wonder whether SunMoon brings those red hangianum seedlings & flasks that the forum members who went to WOC said they saw.


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## Jorch (Apr 1, 2008)

Amy said:


> That is great, I will keep you in mind for sure. Say, can I ask you a question about the shows in the Vancouver area. Which one is the best one to attend??
> 
> I know there are a few there some in the fall too.
> 
> Amy




I personally like to the Fraser Valley show in October more. Although they do not have as many oversea/US vendors as the Vancouver show does, the members sale table are often full of goodies, afterall, it is the best time to sell off less loved plants to make space on the benches for the babies that have grown bigger over summer or all the new purchases for the year. 

Best to find out yourself, by attending BOTH shows! :evil: :rollhappy:


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## Kyle (Apr 1, 2008)

Hien said:


> Wonder whether SunMoon brings those red hangianum seedlings & flasks that the forum members who went to WOC said they saw.



Yes they did, and they never sold out. they will be available agian in Vancouver. They also had antium and micranthum ebur...

Kyle


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## NYEric (Apr 1, 2008)

You *mean* they never sold out of hangianum flasks! There were no hangianum or micranthum v. ebur. left.


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## Kyle (Apr 1, 2008)

There are probably half a dozen hangianum flasks left one Sunday.


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## NYEric (Apr 1, 2008)

Yeah, I'm not comfortable w/ paph flasks. I'm still a little burned about the hang seedlings though.


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## smartie2000 (Apr 1, 2008)

I would be tempted to get someone to buy a hangianum flask but I don't know how long to grow to blooming size! hangianum x armeniacum or hangianum x Joyce Hasegawa would be very nice too
If I google Sun Moon paph, I find a whole list of hangianum hybrids to drool on....sun moon flasks
their $25 maudiae type crosses are worth attempting b/c they are cheap, easy and grow so fast. 
But all their hangianum flasks are worth the money if they don't die since vendors already sell what hangianum hybrid seedlings they have for a lot (Assuming Sun Moon sells correctly labelled flasks since I've heard of issues in the past...)


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## Hien (Apr 1, 2008)

Kyle said:


> Yes they did, and they never sold out. they will be available agian in Vancouver. They also had antium and micranthum ebur...
> 
> Kyle



I wish so much for the day that I can hold one of those red hangianum flasks or eburneum in my hands.
Canadian SOF members are so lucky.
:sob:


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## Yoyo_Jo (Apr 1, 2008)

Hien said:


> I wish so much for the day that I can hold one of those red hangianum flasks or eburneum in my hands.
> Canadian SOF members are so lucky.
> :sob:



Awwww.... ity:


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## Hien (Apr 1, 2008)

Yoyo_Jo said:


> Awwww.... ity:



Thank you for the sympathy.
I should have said Canadian members of both SOF & ST are so lucky.


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## Jorch (Apr 2, 2008)

I decided against getting flasks from Sun Moon is exactly the stories I've heard about their mislabelled plants in the past. I don't want to spend 7 years growing the "hangianums" or other species to blooming size only to discover they are all mislabelled! Esp the micranthum var eber. and the hangianum 'big red' (or something like that) flasks are not cheap. 


Hien.. think of it this way, US phrag and neofinetia lovers are A LOT luckier than us Canadians ity:


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## Hien (Apr 2, 2008)

Jorch said:


> I decided against getting flasks from Sun Moon is exactly the stories I've heard about their mislabelled plants in the past. I don't want to spend 7 years growing the "hangianums" or other species to blooming size only to discover they are all mislabelled! Esp the micranthum var eber. and the hangianum 'big red' (or something like that) flasks are not cheap.
> 
> 
> Hien.. think of it this way, US phrag and neofinetia lovers are A LOT luckier than us Canadians ity:



Yes, what you say & Candace's post about a customer's unhappy Phal post on ebay today reminds me of the hangianum x roths seedlings with the Mem. Larry Hueur's leaves that I & other got in the past (although they are not from SunMoon)


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## smartie2000 (Apr 2, 2008)

ity:
I agree, I can't have get OZ besseae or the newest stuff from chuck acker and neofinetia are near impossible to get. Some of these phrags I get as second hand plants...my OZ besseae is a dog (but a pretty dog)

I am absolutely sure hangianums are in your country Hien....no one openly says so for the most part


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## NYEric (Apr 2, 2008)

Hien said:


> I wish so much for the day that I can hold one of those red hangianum flasks or eburneum in my hands.
> :sob:



Sorry ma'am; I didn't know you felt that way. And I could have traded half for a certain flavum St. Ouen. oke:


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## Amy (Apr 5, 2008)

Well I think I will just sit tight till I take in an orchid show. Maybe just maybe hubby will take in the May Vancouver show with me.

Anyhow, I did get responses from Paramount and Clouds. First of all, Paramount regarding besseae they are sold out of. They also said it can be a very temermental plant to grow and bloom just with home culture. They recommended Prissy though, but I will just wait and see if a hybrid with besseae at a show catches my attention.

Paramount also has some very small seedlings of concolor bellatulum. Estimated bloom time about 4 years. I will also pass on this but thought that maybe some of you that are closer to Paramount would like to know this, it is not on their site yet.

Clouds, has the concolor and again a seedling approx blooming time 4 years.

Don't really know if I truly like the yellow background and spots as appose to the bellatulum with the white and red spots.

So just thought I would let you all know this. I will work on my bellatulum that is shooting up another leave and hopefully will bloom for me this year. When it does you can be assure that I will post a picture for you all.


Amy


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## Paul (Apr 6, 2008)

Amy said:


> Clouds, has the concolor and again a seedling approx blooming time 4 years.
> 
> Amy



Hello Amy, 
Concolor normally don't take that time to bloom, it's a fast grower if provided bright light and quite high temps. 2 years (max 3 for the slowest) from flask seems closer to reality.


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