# Phrag. besseae 'Fox Valley' FCC/AOS



## tomkalina (Jan 16, 2012)

Photo taken under natural (high) light conditions in the greenhouse, so color doesn't appear as saturated as usual, but still a nicely balanced flower with above average form. 





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## nikv (Jan 16, 2012)

Nice!


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## Gcroz (Jan 16, 2012)

Stunning! I think the natural light does wonders for orchid photos. There is just something about the color of your flower that is so mesmerizing!


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## W. Beetus (Jan 16, 2012)

Great shape and color!


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## Lycaste53 (Jan 16, 2012)

Very nice, 
best regards, Gina


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## SlipperFan (Jan 16, 2012)

Wow, Tom -- it looks very saturated on my monitor. Gorgeous!!!


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## Rick (Jan 16, 2012)

Wide petals and perfect symetry.

FCC:clap::clap:


Is this the awarded flower or a recent blooming from the plant?


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## phrag guy (Jan 16, 2012)

that is a very nice one,amazing how wide the petals are


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## tomkalina (Jan 16, 2012)

Hi Rick,

The plant is currently in bloom and the photo was taken this morning. If you compare it to the awards photo, the form is the same, but the color is deeper in the awards photo because the light level at which the photo was taken was much lower.


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## Rick (Jan 16, 2012)

tomkalina said:


> Hi Rick,
> 
> The plant is currently in bloom and the photo was taken this morning. If you compare it to the awards photo, the form is the same, but the color is deeper in the awards photo because the light level at which the photo was taken was much lower.



How many years ago did it get the award Tom? This is a great looking flower.


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## tomkalina (Jan 16, 2012)

Rick,

It received it's FCC/AOS in December, 1993, almost twenty years ago and still arguably one of the best examples of the species. Here's the original awards photo under more controlled lighting. 

Thanks, 





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## SlipperKing (Jan 16, 2012)

Super nice examlpe of the species....and still alive! (after 20 years)


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## tomkalina (Jan 16, 2012)

Hey Rick,

One of the reasons it's lasted almost twenty years is because we've resisted mightily the urge to use it as a capsule parent. We've used it several times as a pollen parent for line breeding to create a superior besseae strain, but not as a capsule parent. 

Thanks,


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## NYEric (Jan 16, 2012)

Gcroz said:


> There is just something about the color of your flower that is so mesmerizing!


That's the color of besseae!


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## Rick (Jan 16, 2012)

tomkalina said:


> Hey Rick,
> 
> One of the reasons it's lasted almost twenty years is because we've resisted mightily the urge to use it as a capsule parent. We've used it several times as a pollen parent for line breeding to create a superior besseae strain, but not as a capsule parent.
> 
> Thanks,



How many growths is this plant now?


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## JeanLux (Jan 17, 2012)

What a beauty :drool: !!!! Jean


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## Paul (Jan 17, 2012)

it's a very nice one !!!


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## Susie11 (Jan 17, 2012)

Looks nice.


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## Mathias (Jan 17, 2012)

That is a great flower on a great species! :clap::drool:


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## e-spice (Jan 17, 2012)

Such a beautiful species and this is a superb example.


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## Rick (Jan 18, 2012)

tomkalina said:


> Hey Rick,
> 
> One of the reasons it's lasted almost twenty years is because we've resisted mightily the urge to use it as a capsule parent. We've used it several times as a pollen parent for line breeding to create a superior besseae strain, but not as a capsule parent.
> 
> Thanks,




Tom does that mean that all your capsule parents are dead?

That would be like the pollen from this flower is the kiss of death!!!


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## tomkalina (Jan 19, 2012)

Hi Rick,

No, they're not all dead, but the majority of our capsule-bearing Phrag besseaes' do appear to be under some stress by the time capsules are harvested, and I don't want to risk losing a highly awarded $$$ plant.


Thanks,


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## John M (Jan 20, 2012)

tomkalina said:


> Hi Rick,
> 
> No, they're not all dead, but the majority of our capsule-bearing Phrag besseaes' do appear to be under some stress by the time capsules are harvested, and I don't want to risk losing a highly awarded $$$ plant.
> 
> ...



Hmmm; interesting. Obviously, you've got tons of experience. So, is it safe to assume that you feel allowing a reasonably healthy plant to flower is okay; but, putting a capsule on any plant causes it considerable additional stress and can in some cases, facilitate premature death, especially if the plant is weak or immature to begin with(?), as discussed here: http://http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23286


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## tomkalina (Jan 20, 2012)

Hey John,

Thanks for the interesting thread-link. I'm probably being a little too conservative about the ability of Phrag. besseae `Fox Valley' FCC/AOS to mature a seed pod without harming the plant, but it's based on several decades of watching my favorite Phrag. species (besseae) grow, bloom and (sometimes) die as a result of our propagation activity. Sometimes, unfortunately, there are few physical markers to rely on to gage plant health; only a gut feeling that a plant might suffer as a result of pollination. In those cases, especially as it concerns our awarded plants, we tend toward being conservative rather than aggressive.


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## John M (Jan 20, 2012)

So, you take a "better safe than sorry"...just in case, approach to putting a capsule on a special plant. Makes sense. That's basically why I had the opinion I did in the other thread about putting a capsule on that awarded kovachii. It was a valuable, awarded plant that was not terribly big or robust. So, I felt that it would be better to wait until the plant was older and larger, before it was made to carry a capsule. As you read, some others felt differently.


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## tomkalina (Jan 20, 2012)

Hi John,

As breeders, we need to let the plants grow to become large, healthy specimens before using them as capsule parents. Not only because it's easier on the plant, but also because germination rates tend to be higher when we use healthy parents. The urge to produce seedlings, especially from weak awarded stock or poorly grown rarities like Pk, can be hard to resist because of market demands, but the result is too often the loss of valuable breeding plants. When this happens, the alpha gene pool is diminished.

Thanks,


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## Leo Schordje (Jan 20, 2012)

I agree with Tom's approach toward using a valuable plant as a capsule parent. 

Not stated is a second reason to be cautious with which plants you use as pod parents. VIRUS. It is possible to transfer some infected tissue along with the pollen on a toothpick when hybridizing. IF the pollen donor is infected with a virus, there is the chance that the capsule parent can be infected by the tissue that came along with the pollen. This has been documented in Cattleya and Phals. There are some documented cases of Phrags carrying virus, especially the old pre- WWII hybrids like Sedenii and Calurum. With a valuable plant, I grow it until I can have 2 or 3 divisions (heir and a spare) and then label only one division as being allowed to be used as a capsule parent. I then also take precautions with that plant after it has carried a few seed capsules, and treat it as if it were asymptomatic for virus. This way I keep a division or two clean for vegetative propagation and exhibition, and in addition have the division that is used only for carrying capsules. Tom's technique fits quite well with a good virus control program. 

This approach does slow down the 'mad race' to produce hybrids, but it is the only way to keep valuable genetic material clean for the long term. 

Good thinking Tom.


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## John M (Jan 20, 2012)

All very well said, Leo.....and a good point about the virus risk. I have not made some crosses with my Cattleyas because I had this same concern.


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## Erythrone (Jan 21, 2012)

Leo Schordje said:


> I agree with Tom's approach toward using a valuable plant as a capsule parent.
> 
> Not stated is a second reason to be cautious with which plants you use as pod parents. VIRUS. It is possible to transfer some infected tissue along with the pollen on a toothpick when hybridizing. IF the pollen donor is infected with a virus, there is the chance that the capsule parent can be infected by the tissue that came along with the pollen. This has been documented in Cattleya and Phals. There are some documented cases of Phrags carrying virus, especially the old pre- WWII hybrids like Sedenii and Calurum. With a valuable plant, I grow it until I can have 2 or 3 divisions (heir and a spare) and then label only one division as being allowed to be used as a capsule parent. I then also take precautions with that plant after it has carried a few seed capsules, and treat it as if it were asymptomatic for virus. This way I keep a division or two clean for vegetative propagation and exhibition, and in addition have the division that is used only for carrying capsules. Tom's technique fits quite well with a good virus control program.
> 
> ...



Very interesting!


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## Leo Schordje (Jan 21, 2012)

John M said:


> All very well said, Leo.....and a good point about the virus risk. I have not made some crosses with my Cattleyas because I had this same concern.



If you use the suspected virused plant as the capsule parent, and then allow the seed capsules to mature to dry seed, sowing the seed only after it is dry - the seed will be free of virus. Green pod seed culture is off limits if you suspect virus. Selfing a virused plant and letting it go to mature seed pod & dry seed is a good way to clean virus out of a genetic strain or line. Any sap transfered in handling green pods can carry the virus and infect the mother flasks. 

Actually it was Arnie Klehm who was my original source for this information on viruses. I had been offered a known virused plant, and was asking how to handle it so that I wouldn't infect my other plants. After an hour or so of back and forth discussion, I chose to not accept the virused plant from the 3rd party, even though it was a very rare in the US plant (Lycaste mathiasae). Sadly the 3rd party didn't want to risk having a virused plant in their collection, and destroyed the plant before a safe home could be found for it. I don't know if this species is still in cultivation. A sad little tale from some 20 years ago. 

Anti Virus Keys:
1.) Wash hands between touching virused and non-virused plants. 
2.) sterilize cutting tools between plants, I use single edge razor blade and just throw them out after use. (in a metal tin, then into the recycling bin). 
3.) absolutely keep all sucking insect infestations to zero. It is documented that aphids can transfer bean mossaic virus from plant to plant, I suspect (but have no proof) that they can transfer other viruses as well. In the same light, I also suspect that other sucking insects might be able to move virus from one orchid to another. 
4.) If a plant is suspected of being virused, do not let its leaves touch other plants. Keep a segregated, spacially separate area for virused plants. 
5.) sterilize pots before re-use, also never transfer used media from one plant to another. 

There may be more steps, but this is what comes off the top of my head. 
Hope this helps.


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## tomkalina (Jan 21, 2012)

Virus is, thankfully, quite rare in modern day Phrag. breeding. As charming as a Pre-WW2 Phrag. Sedenii, Calurum or Schroederae can be, I wouldn't allow one in the greenhouse because of the virus issue. Once again, I'm probably erring on the side of being too conservative, but that's the way it is.


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## Leo Schordje (Jan 24, 2012)

I have always been impressed with your skill at growing and maintaining healthy stock over the years.


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## Justin (Jan 25, 2012)

tomkalina said:


> Virus is, thankfully, quite rare in modern day Phrag. breeding. As charming as a Pre-WW2 Phrag. Sedenii, Calurum or Schroederae can be, I wouldn't allow one in the greenhouse because of the virus issue. Once again, I'm probably erring on the side of being too conservative, but that's the way it is.



i just got a sedenii division...was that a mistake? no clonal name. is there any way to know if it is modern or "heirlooom"?


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## NYEric (Jan 25, 2012)

To be honest I only know of one vendor who had modern Sedenii, where did you get yours?


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## Lycaste53 (Jan 25, 2012)

What means ´Pre-WW2 Phrag. Sedenii´, 
I have two Sedenii, from Franz Glanz, Unterwössen, Germany, but I don´t understand the term ´Pre-WW2´?
Best regards, Gina


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## Justin (Jan 25, 2012)

i got mine when i visited roberts flower supply last month. they had several dvisions they got from another grower.

i suppose i can send it in for testing. any idea which particular virus Sedenii is known to have?


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## John M (Jan 25, 2012)

Gina, "Pre-WW2" means "from before World War II". He could have just as easily said "from before the 1940's" and it would've meant the same thing. His concern of course, is that plants which have been around for over 70 years....and which have been divided and divided and divided, are more likely to have been infected with virus at some point. It's not such a big concern with Phrags as it is other orchids; but, it is still a valid concern that a commercial grower with valuable breeding stock would take into consideration. Heirloom Cattleyas that have been around for decades is one group of orchids that often prove to be virused. You want to be very careful when buying an old Cattleya....especially if you are paying a high price!


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## Lycaste53 (Jan 25, 2012)

John M said:


> Gina, "Pre-WW2" means "from before World War II". He could have just as easily said "from before the 1940's" and it would've meant the same thing. His concern of course, is that plants which have been around for over 70 years....and which have been divided and divided and divided, are more likely to have been infected with virus at some point. It's not such a big concern with Phrags as it is other orchids; but, it is still a valid concern that a commercial grower with valuable breeding stock would take into consideration. Heirloom Cattleyas that have been around for decades is one group of orchids that often prove to be virused. You want to be very careful when buying an old Cattleya....especially if you are paying a high price!



Thank you very much.
Best regards, Gina


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## NYEric (Jan 25, 2012)

Justin said:


> i got mine when i visited roberts flower supply last month. they had several dvisions they got from another grower.



the newer looking ones I saw were at a vendor in NJ. The one I have I'm sure is from pre WW2. I was surprised that Sedenii's divisions have been around so long where as some besseae hybrids were made once and have pretty much disappeared.


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## Stone (Jan 26, 2012)

Superb:clap:


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## Justin (Jan 26, 2012)

the clonal name of my division is Sedenii 'Greenfields'. I'll have to send it in for testing.


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## Phrag-Plus (Jan 28, 2012)

Gorgeous flower!


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## Shiva (Jan 28, 2012)

Leo Schordje;338108
4.) Keep a segregated said:


> Very interesting info Leo.
> I have such a place for suspected virused plants or even a sickly plant. It's called a trash can. Better be safe than sorry as the saying goes.
> 
> I don't know how I could have missed this thread Tom. This is one very beautiful besseae.


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## Erythrone (Jan 29, 2012)

Leo Schordje said:


> If you use the suspected virused plant as the capsule parent, and then allow the seed capsules to mature to dry seed, sowing the seed only after it is dry - the seed will be free of virus.



Very interesting. Thanks for you comments!

Can you explain why the seeds will be free of virus after drying or the seed pod? If virus are destroyed with dryness, why should we always clean carefully and sterilized blades, cutting tools, pots?


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## John M (Jan 29, 2012)

The virus isn't killed by drying. The seed is virus free because the virus particles are unable to cross from the mother plant into the developing seed embryos, much like the way a human baby developing in an HIV possitive mother does not get the virus from it's mother's blood supply. The mother and baby have separate blood supplies, kept separated by the placenta, which does not allow the virus to cross into the baby. However, at birth, if things get messy, some of the mother's blood can infect the baby. With seeds, if a green pod sowing is done, then as the knife cuts through the green outer tissue of the capsule the virus can be introduced into the partially developed seeds inside, causing them to become infected too. However, if the capsule is allowed to ripen naturally and dry, the barrier between the seed embryos and the mother plant's tissues keeps it's integrity right up to when the seeds become independent of the mother plant and the virus does not have a chance to pass into the seeds.


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## Erythrone (Jan 29, 2012)

OK...Logical...

Thank you John.


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## W. Beetus (Jan 29, 2012)

I feel like this might be a good addition to this thread for future reference. This is the same bloom as seen in the first post.


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## Erythrone (Jan 29, 2012)

Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!

I love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## SlipperFan (Jan 29, 2012)

Erythrone said:


> Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!
> 
> I love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Ditto!


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