# K-Lite experts, please help



## Trithor (Apr 9, 2013)

I am trying to change my fertilising, but have had a few unpleasant starts. Now that my greenhouse is starting too smell less like a bad fish market, and more like that accustomed jungle smell, I have new energy to try and resolve the problem.
Originaly when I was using my previous fertilizer as a foliar feed only, I was getting great results, but as the collection grew, that no longer was feasible, so I switched to fertigation. It was then that I noticed my plants going backwards (leaf tip die back and a high incidence of flower deformity, as well as slow growth). It is only now after reading the posts on this forum that I had a look at the chem comp of the product and I see that the potassium is stratospheric.
My next attempt was even worse (dont ever use a fish product in your greenhouse!)

I can get a hydroponic formulation 3.2.1(19) with ME, would this be appropriate and what should I add to improve the balance (Mag sulph and Ca nitrate have been mentioned)


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## Stone (Apr 9, 2013)

Trithor, By all means try low K low P type of formulation but please first realize that leaf tip burn was not caused by excessive K. Much more likely it was high overall Total Disolved Salts ( high salinity ) which caused that issue or something you have not mentioned. Therefore I strongly recommend you purchase an EC meter from you hydroponic supplier so you can monitor the strength of your feed. I suggest starting with an EC of about 0.5 dS/m or lower regardless of the formulation. If you want to increase Ca and Mg, add the nitrate and sulphate forms to bring EC up to 0.9 and dilute back to 0.5 with more water. Mag sulphate should be about 1/4 of the Nitrate. Or use just these two nutrients every other feed. Or just order some from Ray! This will reduce all the minor elements as well but the plants probably only need much less than what we give them anyway.


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## emydura (Apr 10, 2013)

I personally find the application of a foliar fertliser so much easier than fertigation. I just need to fill up my 5 litre sprayer once and that does my whole glasshouse (I mix 4L actually). I do fertigate every 4th watering. It just happened to be today actually. I had to mix four 9L watering cans to cover my glasshouse. It is a lot more work for me and heavier as well. And like you I'm very happy with the effect of the foliar fertiliser.


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## Ozpaph (Apr 10, 2013)

Flush a lot.
Lower fertilizer concentration - use a TDS (or similar) meter.
I alternate various fertilisers (lowish K) and add MgSo4 and Cal Nitrate


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## Trithor (Apr 10, 2013)

Perhaps I should give more details of my problem. 
I water twice a week, once during the week (midweek, at about 7am). This watering is with plain council tap water, but the watering is very thorough, I allow the water to drain liberally through the pots. I don't worry about wasting water as the greenhouse is tiled with terra cotta tiles and all the runoff collects in a big tank which I use to water the lawn and garden. The second watering is over the weekend and is done in two stages, the first at 7am, as above with council water, and then I go to breakfast, and about an hour later I rewater with a mix of council and RO (winter) or rainwater (summer)
I mist with trace elements once a month, and fertigate once a month. The fertigation solution is mixed to half recommended strength (the concentration was lab checked when I calibrated the fertigation system)
As late summer approaches I substitute the trace element session with a fungicide as I have found that as we get cooler wet days before the onset of winter, fungal problems do manifest themselves, so I opt for a preventative treatment for two months (early autumn, and early winter)
I do not feed during mid winter or mid summer)
A portion of leaf tip die-back was as a result of a potting mix which I switched to. I started to use coconut husk chips, as good bark was not available. These coconut chips degraded to a mush over a six month period. The surface of the pot still looked great, but the problem lurked in the bottom of the pot.
When my collection grew to in excess of 5k plants, foliar feeding became too time consuming and so I switched to fertigation.
Not all my plants show problems, but the few that do, concern me (perhaps 2%)
What I have noticed which is far more worrying is that plants which previously had great flowers, became recalcitrant bloomers, or showed floral defects not present before. The most affected with defects were the multis, particularly those with roths and stonei in their background. Again it is not all of them, and also not consistent. A multi which won 'best on show' at our nationals last year had two perfect spikes, but the third spike which opened about a week after the show was so deformed that it nowhere resembled the previous blooms.
I am also not happy with the last two seasons growth ( about when I switched to fertigation, also when I changed to the new brand of fertilizer) I strongly believe that the excessively high K is partly if not completely to blame. I have been blaming the incorporated auxins until now, (still not happy with auxins in the fertilizer)


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## DavidCampen (Apr 10, 2013)

Trithor said:


> I am also not happy with the last two seasons growth ( about when I switched to fertigation, also when I changed to the new brand of fertilizer) I strongly believe that the excessively high K is partly if not completely to blame. I have been blaming the incorporated auxins until now, (still not happy with auxins in the fertilizer)


Why have you switched from blaming the auxins to blaming potassium? What was the composition (NPK, types of nitrogen, calcium, magnesium levels) of the fertilizer that you were using for foliar feeding compared to what you are using now for fertigation? When you changed from foliar feeding to fertigation why did you change fertilizers?


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## gonewild (Apr 10, 2013)

Trithor said:


> I mist with trace elements once a month, and fertigate once a month. The fertigation solution is mixed to half recommended strength (the concentration was lab checked when I calibrated the fertigation system)



What is the recommended strength for feeding once a month?
Does your fertigation solution contain any trace elements?



> As late summer approaches I substitute the trace element session with a fungicide as I have found that as we get cooler wet days before the onset of winter, fungal problems do manifest themselves, so I opt for a preventative treatment for two months (early autumn, and early winter)



This is a disease problem that low potassium levels seems to eliminate.



> I do not feed during mid winter or mid summer)



You feed once a month so that would be 12 applications?
And then you don't feed mid during mid winter or summer, so how many fertilizer applications do you actually apply in a year?


> What I have noticed which is far more worrying is that plants which previously had great flowers, became recalcitrant bloomers, or showed floral defects not present before. The most affected with defects were the multis, particularly those with roths and stonei in their background. Again it is not all of them, and also not consistent. A multi which won 'best on show' at our nationals last year had two perfect spikes, but the third spike which opened about a week after the show was so deformed that it nowhere resembled the previous blooms.



Deformed in what way?
Do you see flowers wilting in a short time?



> I am also not happy with the last two seasons growth ( about when I switched to fertigation, also when I changed to the new brand of fertilizer) I strongly believe that the excessively high K is partly if not completely to blame.



That is the conclusion k-lite users are reporting (proving). But there are other possible reasons also for the problems you have. The high potassium levels may not be the actual cause but they may very well aggravate the problems.



> I have been blaming the incorporated auxins until now, (still not happy with auxins in the fertilizer)



What auxins are in the fertilizer?


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## Stone (Apr 10, 2013)

gonewild said:


> > What auxins are in the fertilizer?
> 
> 
> 
> Or more to the point WHY are auxins in the fertilizer?


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## Ray (Apr 10, 2013)

Foliar feeding of trace elements????? Why? A very slim, periodic addition to the fertigation solution is plenty. Excessive trace elements often lead to confused symptoms of other nutritional issues.

I also doubt the auxins are playing a role. For one, they can be very unstable, so when incorporated in a fertilizer formula kept at room temperature, they'll likely degrade readily.


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## gonewild (Apr 10, 2013)

Stone said:


> gonewild said:
> 
> 
> > Or more to the point WHY are auxins in the fertilizer?
> ...


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## Trithor (Apr 11, 2013)

I have no idea what the cytokinins and auxins are in the formulation, or why they are included. It is a ready made hydroponic/foliar/fertigation feed for use in greenhouses on flowering plants and fruit.
The formulation is as follows;
Nitrogen 141g/kg
Phosphorus 46g/kg
P2O6 105g/kg
K 275g/kg
K2O 331g/kg
Sulphur 13g/kg
Magnesium 2g/kg
Zinc 500mg/kg
Iron 500mg/kg
Manganese 200mg/kg
Copper 200mg/kg
Boron 1g/kg
Mo 50mg/kg
Cytokinins 34mg/kg
Auxins 57mg/kg
Above is mixed as 200g per 100liter stock solution and applied at a mix rate of 1 in 100 fertigation

The blooms do not seem to fade quickly at all, I cannot claim that that has posed a problem.
The deformities are deformed pouch on some, others have a deformed dorsal, and some the one petal is fused to the dorsal. They are significant deformities, not just a slight distortion. Some blooms are so deformed that it is a struggle to identify the flower as a paph, and absolutely impossible to discern what the actual hybrid or species is. The deformity is not constant, from one spike to the next on the same plant (both from one flowering to the next, as well as at the same flowering)
I feed arround 11 times a year (4 weekly intervals, but do not feed mid summer or mid winter unless the weather is a bit cooler in mid summer or a bit warmer in mid winter. I have noticed that growth rates are lower at both these times and so reduce the feed accordingly.
I mist with a trace element mix (mist= very light application) once a month, as the trace element mix contains a broader range of elements incl silicon. When I starded with this I did see an improvement in growth quality and rate (the growths seemed firmer and larger, and also seemed to mature quicker)


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## Stone (Apr 11, 2013)

So if I understand that correctly, your actual NPK is 14.1%-4.6%-27.5%.
If thats the case, It falls within the general ratios of your ''normal'' type fertilizers.
I see no Ca, so you should add that as nitrate which would bring your N level higher, Reduce your P/N ratio (a good thing) and reduce your K/N ratio as well as adding Calcium. 
But I really don't know if I like the idea of hormones added to the feed. It might be worthwhile finding a different one? 
Also, an interval of 4 weeks is probably too long for a liquid feeding program. I would suggest a weekly feed at 1/4 of the normal rate. Again, an EC meter is a handy tool.


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## gonewild (Apr 11, 2013)

Potassium is WAY to high.

I would not use fertilizer that contains auxins. Not knowing what the auxins are it is difficult to comment but they could very well be the cause of the flower deformations.

You need a different fertilizer formula.

You are applying 200 grams of fertilizer in 10000 liters of water, how many total ppms is this?


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## Ray (Apr 11, 2013)

Actually, in standard fertilizer parlance, it's a 14.1-10.5-33.1 formula, but at 200g in 10000 liters (200,000mg/10,000kg), that's only a 20 ppm total addition, which makes me think that the fertilizer and the hormones (if we assume they are active) are playing no role.


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## DavidCampen (Apr 11, 2013)

AS ray says, the fertilizer solution you are feeding with is only 20 ppm. And, you are only feeding with this once a month. This is such a small amount that whatever your problems are they are not caused by you fertilizer formulation. You could replace this fertilizer with pure potassium chloride or pure table salt and at 20 ppm once a month it won't have any effect. Most of your mineral nutrition is likely coming from the council water that you use weekly and your potting media. 

I believe that you said that this fertilizer concentration is 1/2 the recommended concentration; but remember that that recommended concentration was likely intended for hydroponic use where the roots have constant contact with the solution. If you are going to feed at 20 ppm TDS then you should do it with every watering; then you also need to know the analysis of your council water to determine if you should add calcium and magnesium.

The level of boron in this fertilizer formulation is also curiously high - twice the level of iron but I guess that it won't hurt anything.


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## gonewild (Apr 11, 2013)

Ray said:


> Actually, in standard fertilizer parlance, it's a 14.1-10.5-33.1 formula, but at 200g in 10000 liters (200,000mg/10,000kg), that's only a 20 ppm total addition, which makes me think that the fertilizer and the hormones (if we assume they are active) are playing no role.



I've never use K2O but....

Doesn't 

K 275g/kg
K2O 331g/kg

come out to be 550 g of K?
Doesn't that make 55% K?


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## gonewild (Apr 11, 2013)

Your nutrient level is low based on the amount you apply. Previous logic would say the fertilizer is not your problem.

BUT since the use of K-lite is giving us new insight into nutrient levels for orchids we shoud not make this assumption.

I have known for a long time that the correct ratio balance between nutrients was more important than the amount applied to orchids. Until k-lite use revealed that rapid growth can be achieved with very low nutrient levels we did not know how little nutrients orchids actually need.

Even though your fertilizer applications are very low in nutrient content they are out of balance. It is very likely that at low nutrient levels the balance between nutrients becomes more critical.

Based on the short time but posttive results of K-lites low K ratio I still maintain your potassium levels are way to high and could be a source of toxic conditions.

That said your deformed flowers point to environmental factors. Possibly atmosphere pollution. Ethylene Gas?

Excess Auxins and Cytokinins in the environment become environmental pollutants. Unless you know how and why to use them you should not apply them.

When you fertigate do you wet the foliage and flower spikes? If you do this could explain why one flower spike is deformed and others not. Applying auxins during a certain stage of bud development could easily cause deformation. Possibly this could happen also by a sudden increase taken in by the roots.


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## DavidCampen (Apr 11, 2013)

gonewild said:


> I've never use K2O but....
> 
> Doesn't
> 
> ...



They are giving the amount of potassium in two different ways - as the weight of potassium and again as the weight of potassium oxide; 275g K equals 331g K20. In the U.S. the K of N-P-K is expressed as the weight of K2O. K2O would not be in a fertilizer formulation - it would react violently with water, except that it wouldn't last that long since it would quickly react with ambient moisture to form KOH.


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## DavidCampen (Apr 11, 2013)

gonewild said:


> Even though your fertilizer applications are very low in nutrient content they are out of balance. It is very likely that at low nutrient levels the balance between nutrients becomes more critical.


That reminds me of a joke I already told here - about the homeopath who forgot to take his medicine and died of an overdose.

And anyways, he is watering weekly with council water which likely contains a substantial amount of calcium and magnesium and is much greater than the small amount of K from his fertilizer.


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## gonewild (Apr 11, 2013)

DavidCampen said:


> That reminds me of a joke I already told here - about the homeopath who forgot to take his medicine and died of an overdose.
> 
> And anyways, he is watering weekly with council water which likely contains a substantial amount of calcium and magnesium and is much greater than the small amount of K from his fertilizer.



I don't like to make assumptions about water supply content. Unless we know what is in the council water we can't assume it has a substantial amount of anything.

The weekly water applications do not offset the nutrient imbalance that occurs once each month. In fact it increases the problem. Plants like orchids need a steady consistent supply of nutrients. You can't expect living tissue to be happy with only feeding once a month. At best it causes a sudden growth spurt that gets starved to death for the next 30 days.
When I speak of balance of nutrients it is in a multi dimensional view, balance between available nutrients as well as being available at all times for tissue growth.


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## gonewild (Apr 11, 2013)

_"Cytokinin responses include:

cell division (cytokinesis) 
organ development (shoot formation) 
delayed senescence and promotion of chloroplast development 
affect nutrient sink strength of organs 
promotion of lateral bud growth 
promotion of cotyledon expansion (only in certain species) 
* inhibition of auxin-induced elongation" *_

The line I bolded might explain the deformed buds?


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## Trithor (Apr 11, 2013)

Thank you for your ongoing feedback. Our council water is claimed to have very low levels of Ca and Mg, however having said that, we can no longer take any claims made by our councils at face value. I would have to send a sample away for testing (will first ask an irrigation company in the area if they dont have a recent test result) Having said that, our kettle/coffee machine has little or no 'scale' after years of boiling.
It is interesting that you should say that most of the plant feeding in my system should come from the council water. Up to three years ago I almost never fed my plants at all, and they did not seem to struggle at all. The best growth was with foliar feeding, I am sure the fertilizer levels were much higher, also I used to feed every fortnight.


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## gonewild (Apr 11, 2013)

Trithor said:


> Thank you for your ongoing feedback. Our council water is claimed to have very low levels of Ca and Mg, however having said that, we can no longer take any claims made by our councils at face value. I would have to send a sample away for testing (will first ask an irrigation company in the area if they dont have a recent test result) Having said that, our kettle/coffee machine has little or no 'scale' after years of boiling.



This is why I ask questions before making assumptions. there are so many possible variables when it comes to minerals in water.


> It is interesting that you should say that most of the plant feeding in my system should come from the council water.
> Up to three years ago I almost never fed my plants at all, and they did not seem to struggle at all.



They did not struggle because they were growing very slowly on a balanced supply of basically only natural nitrogen sources with very low PK levels.



> The best growth was with foliar feeding, I am sure the fertilizer levels were much higher, also I used to feed every fortnight.



The growth was the best because that is when they had a better balance of nutrients. Once you began the fertigation with the out of balance nutrient supply is when your problems started. even if the nutrient ratios are correct feeding only once a month creates an out of balance nutrient supply curve. 
A balanced constant supply of nutrients is what plants grow best with.


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## Ray (Apr 11, 2013)

gonewild said:


> _"Cytokinin responses include:
> 
> cell division (cytokinesis)
> organ development (shoot formation)
> ...



I doubt it.

The amount of hormones in that fertilizer are very low to start with - 57 mg auxins and 34 mg cytokinins per kg - he uses 1/5 of a kg. then dillutes that 10,000-to-1, suggesting that the applied solution is 1.14 ppb auxin and 0.68 ppb cytokinin - as I said earlier - nothing at all.


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## Stone (Apr 11, 2013)

Ray said:


> Actually, in standard fertilizer parlance, it's a 14.1-10.5-33.1 formula, but at 200g in 10000 liters (200,000mg/10,000kg), that's only a 20 ppm total addition, which makes me think that the fertilizer and the hormones (if we assume they are active) are playing no role.



0.83 x 33.1% K20 = 27.47 % Elemental K
0.44 x 10.5% P206 = 4.62 % Elemental P
Thats what the plants are getting in K and P nutrition. In Oz we use the straight N-P-K system rather than the archaic percent phosphoric acid etc. Its all very well in the lab but doesn't mean that much to the plants. It can be misleading, unless you convert you may assume your plants are getting 10.5% P. And have you guys gone metric yet?????????????


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## Trithor (Apr 12, 2013)

The packaging gives the ratio as N.P.K 3 1 6 (46)
If I have understood correctly a 3 1 1 would be more appropriate, with added Mag sulph and Ca nitrate?
How many kg of each should I add to a 25kg package of base fertilizer?
If I change my feeding to a weekly fertigation, how much should I increase the concentration to to supply improved nutrient levels?
I am going to buy the fertilizer on the way to the farm this weekend, and will post the composition of what I have found on my return


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## DavidCampen (Apr 12, 2013)

Trithor said:


> The packaging gives the ratio as N.P.K 3 1 6 (46)
> If I have understood correctly a 3 1 1 would be more appropriate, with added Mag sulph and Ca nitrate?
> How many kg of each should I add to a 25kg package of base fertilizer?
> If I change my feeding to a weekly fertigation, how much should I increase the concentration to to supply improved nutrient levels?
> I am going to buy the fertilizer on the way to the farm this weekend, and will post the composition of what I have found on my return



Since you are making a liquid concentrate that you then dilute 1:100 using an injector; you will have to account for the limited solubility of calcium sulfate. For a rough example, in my formulations, where I have about 5g calcium per liter of liquid concentrate at pH 5.5, I can add only about 1g of ammonium sulfate; 1.5g of ammonium sulfate would cause precipitation of calcium sulfate. Epsom Salt, which is magnesium sulfate heptahydrate, has about 1/2 the amount of sulfate as ammonium sulfate so you can use about twice as much before you get calcium sulfate precipitation. 

I see that the fertilizer you have already has about this much sulfate. Can you buy magnesium nitrate?


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## cnycharles (Apr 12, 2013)

another way around this would be to have two injectors (costly) and have two separate inputs to your water line, or water once with one type/part and then again the next time with another. also if you have a big tank, fill it half-way with the one type and then switch your intake and fill it the rest of the way with the other half (or at whichever ratio makes the right fertilizer application you want)

if you have the above together in concentration you will def. get the precipitate, but if you inject them into your feed water separately it is assumed that the concentrations are low enough to avoid precipitation (at least conventional hort. consultants believe this to be the case)

this said, it would be easier to use materials that wouldn't precipitate in the first place, just providing other options


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## gonewild (Apr 12, 2013)

DavidCampen said:


> Since you are making a liquid concentrate that you then dilute 1:100 using an injector; you will have to account for the limited solubility of calcium sulfate. For a rough example, in my formulations, where I have about 5g calcium per liter of liquid concentrate at pH 5.5, I can add only about 1g of ammonium sulfate; 1.5g of ammonium sulfate would cause precipitation of calcium sulfate. Epsom's Salts, which is magnesium sulfate heptahydrate, has about 1/2 the amount of sulfate as ammonium sulfate so you can use about twice as much before you get calcium sulfate precipitation.
> 
> I see that the fertilizer you have already has about this much sulfate. Can you buy magnesium nitrate?



Why are you recommending Calcium Sulfate?


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## gonewild (Apr 12, 2013)

Do you know the source for the Nitrogen in the fertilizer?

Is it an option for you to start over and use a different base fertilizer?


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## Trithor (Apr 12, 2013)

DavidCampen said:


> Since you are making a liquid concentrate that you then dilute 1:100 using an injector; you will have to account for the limited solubility of calcium sulfate. For a rough example, in my formulations, where I have about 5g calcium per liter of liquid concentrate at pH 5.5, I can add only about 1g of ammonium sulfate; 1.5g of ammonium sulfate would cause precipitation of calcium sulfate. Epsom's Salts, which is magnesium sulfate heptahydrate, has about 1/2 the amount of sulfate as ammonium sulfate so you can use about twice as much before you get calcium sulfate precipitation.
> 
> I see that the fertilizer you have already has about this much sulfate. Can you buy magnesium nitrate?



Sure, not a bad idea, at least with the calcium nitrate and now magnesium nitrate, if the fertilizer don't work, I have two colours covered for a range of fireworks.....oke:


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## DavidCampen (Apr 12, 2013)

gonewild said:


> Why are you recommending Calcium Sulfate?



I was not recommending calcium sulfate. I was stating that if you are formulating a liquid fertilizer concentrate that contains both sulfate and calcium then you have to consider the limited solubility of calcium sulfate. The hydroponic fertilizer that he is using now has enough sulfate that if you add additional sulfate from magnesium sulfate then you may find that you get a precipitate of calcium sulfate when you also add calcium (nitrate) to the liquid concentrate.


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## DavidCampen (Apr 12, 2013)

Trithor said:


> Sure, not a bad idea, at least with the calcium nitrate and now magnesium nitrate, if the fertilizer don't work, I have two colours covered for a range of fireworks.....oke:



Yeah, I have wondered if a calcium soap would be sufficiently soluble in alcohol so that I could make an alcohol lamp with a pretty red flame.

When you buy fertilizer grade calcium nitrate or calcium ammonium nitrate you need to be certain that it is water soluble - labeled as "water soluble", "greenhouse grade" or "hydroponic grade" - since it is possible to get material labeled "calcium nitrate" or "calcium ammonium nitrate" that is intended to be spread on a field and is actually just a mixture of (insoluble) limestone and ammonium nitrate.


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## DavidCampen (Apr 12, 2013)

cnycharles said:


> another way around this would be to have two injectors (costly) and have two separate inputs to your water line, or water once with one type/part and then again the next time with another. also if you have a big tank, fill it half-way with the one type and then switch your intake and fill it the rest of the way with the other half (or at whichever ratio makes the right fertilizer application you want)
> 
> if you have the above together in concentration you will def. get the precipitate, but if you inject them into your feed water separately it is assumed that the concentrations are low enough to avoid precipitation (at least conventional hort. consultants believe this to be the case)
> 
> this said, it would be easier to use materials that wouldn't precipitate in the first place, just providing other options



Yes, I use a Dosmatic injector pump and have been thinking about buying a second one so that I can increase the amount of sulfate that I am applying. Using dual Dosmatic injectors they are placed in series so that the supply water passes through both. The supply water powers the pumps and (with an additional kit) the chemical solutions are combined just downstream from the pumps.


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## DavidCampen (Apr 12, 2013)

We have gotten off on this fertilizer formulation tangent but, as Ray and others in this thread have noted, it seems unlikely that your problems with deformed flowers are because of your fertilizer. It seems more likely to be some environmental problem; someone mentioned ethylene gas.


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## gonewild (Apr 12, 2013)

I suggested environmental problems and factors like ethylene gas. Now knowing the fact that only 2% of the plants are affected with problems is an argument against the pollutants.

Several healthy spikes and one deformed one on one plant indicate that the problem occurred at a specific point in time when the deformed spike was at a susceptible stage of development. This is a reason to look at the auxin application.

Even though the nutrient level applied is low and it would seem that it is not enough to cause problems I think differently. The Potassium ratio is extremly high. What this is pointing towards is yet another case to support the K toxicity theory. (sorry).

Theory....
The part about potassium being "toxic" is in the instance that it's levels are to high compared to the other minerals the plant requires. In this case very low levels of N and Ca are available while a very high level of K is available. During the 30 days of no fertilizer application the N and Ca are either consumed or leached and the K is being bound to the media. During the last two years since fertigation began the K levels have become toxic. Keep in mind it is not the amount of nutrients but the ratio of each that causes the effect. 
The problems and fertilizer used here just scream out in support of the K-lite theory.

I have no idea why excess K might cause flower deformities....But we don't know what the auxins might do when the plant is "toxic" with K.

True the ppm of the auxins applied is rather low but auxins are formed inside plant tissue for the plant and are not expected to be absorbed from the outside environment. When you apply auxins, hormones, ect to growing plants you are really screwing things up. Maybe the screwed up growth is desirable or maybe not. NAA is an auxin included in most rooting compounds and I can tell you positively that NAA is toxic to some plant species and kills the plant tissue rather than causing roots to form. But it is still used.
Don't under estimate the effect of low doses of auxins.

Who are the target users of this fertilizer formula?


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## gonewild (Apr 12, 2013)

DavidCampen said:


> It seems more likely to be some environmental problem; someone mentioned ethylene gas.



If it was ethylene gas flowers would be wilting prematurely.


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## cnycharles (Apr 12, 2013)

you mentioned spot damage at certain periods of time; if there were auxins in beaded water sitting on developing buds/sheaths, that could either cause cell damage if the plants were hot and the water was cold, or and/or the auxins (with the scenario of k being too high in plant) sitting in that beaded water could concentrate the chemicals sitting on that bud, especially if the sun were very bright and/or the water evaporated leaving a locally higher concentration where the water/chem was sitting.

I was wondering if the same thing could be happening if overhead water was applied to buds that had trace elements in it, and it got locally concentrated in beaded water on buds (or a combination of any of the above  )


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## gonewild (Apr 12, 2013)

cnycharles said:


> I was wondering if the same thing could be happening if overhead water was applied to buds that had trace elements in it, and it got locally concentrated in beaded water on buds (or a combination of any of the above  )



Yes the chemistry in the concentrated water drops could be a factor to the bud deformation.
Considering there is no good reason to add hormones to fertilizer why take the chance? And then read a little about auxins and cytokinins and consider what might happen if these were applies to rapidly growing flower bud tissue, they make plant cells do strange things......

_
Oversynthesis of cytokinins in plant tissue causes abnormal growth: crown gall tumor disease caused by the bacterium Agrobacterium tumefaciens is an example of excessive production of cytokinins in local tumor tissue._

_Cytokinins exhibit a wide range of physiological effects when applied externally to plant tissues, organs, and whole plants. Exogenous applications of this hormone induce cell division in tissue culture in the presence of auxin. The formation of roots or shoots depends on the relative concentrations of auxin and cytokinin added to the culture medium. High auxin and low cytokinin concentrations lead to root formation, while low auxin and high cytokinin concentrations give shoots. Tissue culture techniques have been employed by plant biotechnologists to grow genetically engineered plant cells into whole plants._
_
The ratio of auxin to cytokinin plays an important role in the effect of cytokinin on plant growth. Parenchyma tissue cultured with auxin but without cytokinin have cells that grow large but do not divide._


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## Stone (Apr 12, 2013)

gonewild said:


> QUOTE] In this case very low levels of N and Ca are available while a very high level of K is available. During the 30 days of no fertilizer application the N and Ca are either consumed or leached and the K is being bound to the media.


As far as N is concerned, It depends on the form. Nitrate is readily leached where as Ammonium is just as tightly bound as the K. In fact it easily crowds out the K in plant tissues. (as well as other cations) So there may be a big difference to the K ''problem'' depending on the N source.


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## gonewild (Apr 12, 2013)

Stone said:


> As far as N is concerned, It depends on the form. Nitrate is readily leached where as Ammonium is just as tightly bound as the K. In fact it easily crowds out the K in plant tissues. (as well as other cations) So there may be a big difference to the K ''problem'' depending on the N source.



I assume the plants are using up the small amount of N that is applied while not using the K. The K then accumulating in the media.


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## gonewild (Apr 12, 2013)

Stone said:


> As far as N is concerned, It depends on the form. Nitrate is readily leached where as Ammonium is just as tightly bound as the K. In fact it easily crowds out the K in plant tissues. (as well as other cations) So there may be a big difference to the K ''problem'' depending on the N source.



Only a guess based on the high K level, but probably most of the N comes from Potassium Nitrate in this fertilizer mix.


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## Trithor (Apr 14, 2013)

I doubt that ethylene is a cause of my problem. There is no source of ethylene present or near the greenhouse at all.
I think the target market for the fertilizer are the tomatoe growers. When I purchased the fertilizer I never realy considered the composition to be a problem, it was labeled as 'fertigation fertilizer for flower and fruit'. I bought 50 kg of the stuff!
The reason why I originally thought that the flower deformities was due to auxin/cytokinins is because I experienced something similar many years ago. As a med student I used to grow a very varied collection of ferns. I used to use a brand of contraceptive pill on the ferns (used to get them from the family planning clinic at the hospital which I worked at, plenty of expired pills were always available). I can only assume that a component of the pill was converted into an active growth hormone by the potting mix or fern itself, because the plants receiving the pill grew much faster than those not. After I started growing orchids I tried the same on them, but did not see any change in growth rate, but the flowers were nearly all deformed.


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## Trithor (Apr 19, 2013)

At long last, ...... I have my new fertilizer. As advised I got extra calcium nitrate and magnesium nitrate. I arrived home to find the following on my doorstep;
25kg magnesium nitrate
25kg calcium nitrate
25kg magnesium sulphate
50 kg special mix as follows
198g/kg n( as 118g ammonium and 81g nitrates)
130g/kg P
65g/kg K
176mg/kg Fe
42mg/kg Mn
21mg/kg Zn
3mg/kg Cu
53mg B
5mg Mo

Now how much Mag nitrate should I mix in (or mag sulph if we don't want to increase the nitrate portion too much?) I have been advised to apply the calcium component separately to avoid precipitation of the calcium.


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## Trithor (Apr 19, 2013)

I forgot to mention that the fertilizer is finely ground up and very well homogenized. The included slip claims that a sample as small as 5mg will test 95% representative of the whole.


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## DavidCampen (Apr 19, 2013)

Trithor said:


> Now how much Mag nitrate should I mix in (or mag sulph if we don't want to increase the nitrate portion too much?) I have been advised to apply the calcium component separately to avoid precipitation of the calcium.



It is sulfate that causes calcium to precipitate. With my formulations, at about pH 5.5, I find that the concentrate solution that I make to use at 1:100 dilution will take sulfate up the equivalent of 1 gram of calcium sulfate per liter without forming a precipitate. If I increase the sulfate up to the equivalent of 1.5 grams calcium sulfate per liter I will get a precipitate; it is interesting to watch, it can take several hours to overnight for the precipitate to form.

So how much magnesium sulfate you can add depends on if there is any sulfate in the ready made formulation. I like to add sulfate up to the solubility limit because I feel that sulfur is an important nutrient.


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## Trithor (Apr 20, 2013)

David, then should I not keep the calcium and magnesium components separate and apply them a few days later? Ie apply the new fertilizer on day 1, a calmag mix on day 4, a water flush on day 7 and so on?


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## Ray (Apr 20, 2013)

I think that if you mix them in the about-to-be-applied dilution, and use the stuff right away, precipitation will not be an issues.

As David alluded-to, the ions have to travel to each other in order to combine into particles large enough to drop out of solution, so in a dilute solution, that is slower and less likely.


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## Trithor (Apr 20, 2013)

Thanks for all the assistance.


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## Rick (Apr 20, 2013)

The Greencare Klite has calcium nitrate and magnesium nitrate dry in the same mix (no mag sulfate). We haven't been getting calcium precipitation in concentrated solutions, but the amount of sulfate is not high enough to get gypsum formation (as mentioned previously).

If you are making up your fert solution in a well water or relatively hard surface/tap water, you shouldn't need to add any calcium or magnesium salts (already in the makeup water). If you are using RO or rain water then calcium/magnesium is added to achieve hardness of ~20-30 ppm (as CaCO3) if your total nitrogen application rate is also low and go up proportionally for higher rates of N application.

Keep Ca > Mg.

If you are using rain/RO water, then you will be using mostly the calcium nitrate and magsulfate with a dash of the mix. If you are using well water, then the mix will get primary use with maybe a dash of mag sulfate/mag nitrate.


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## gonewild (Apr 20, 2013)

Rick said:


> If you are using rain/RO water, then you will be using mostly the calcium nitrate and magsulfate with a dash of the mix. If you are using well water, then the mix will get primary use with maybe a dash of mag sulfate/mag nitrate.



How big is a dash? Can you express that in an approximate percentage or some volume comparison?


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## gonewild (Apr 20, 2013)

Trithor said:


> Thanks for all the assistance.



Are you wanting a dilution for direct application or a concentrate to use with an injector?


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## Trithor (Apr 20, 2013)

gonewild said:


> Are you wanting a dilution for direct application or a concentrate to use with an injector?



For use in the injector. It is currently set for 1 in 50 parts, so a mix for that would be great. Despite all the help, I am getting more confused with each passing day!


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## gonewild (Apr 20, 2013)

Trithor said:


> I am getting more confused with each passing day!



OK lets figure out how much fertilizer to mix to make your stock solution without worrying whether or not you should use it.....

How strong do you want the N to be in PPM?


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## gonewild (Apr 20, 2013)

gonewild said:


> OK lets figure out how much fertilizer to mix to make your stock solution without worrying whether or not you should use it.....
> 
> How strong do you want the N to be in PPM?



And how many ppm of K do you want?

You need to decide the ratio between Nitrogen and Potassium you want.

Do you want to try to come close to K-lite ratios?


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## Trithor (Apr 20, 2013)

Lance, thank you for getting so involved. I stopped using my previous fertilizer because i was concerned. After reading the posts on k-lite i decided that i needed to change. So yes I think I would like to approximate K-lite. I have currently applied 200mg of the premix in 10litre water applied through the injector as a 1 in 50. I figured that would be a fair starting point. I did not mix in any cal nitrate or mag nitrate, as I figured I needed to start somewhere. I have not been feeding for the last two weeks while I tried to figure out what to do.
I have read all the info on your site, trying to get a grip on the situation, and realise I need to get a water test before I realy know where I stand.
thanks, Gary.


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## ALToronto (Apr 20, 2013)

200 mg of premix? That's very little. Do you mean 200 ml or maybe 200 g?


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## Rick (Apr 20, 2013)

Trithor said:


> I need to get a water test before I realy know where I stand.
> thanks, Gary.



Yes I'm also confused without knowing what the water chemistry is of your irrigation water.

sorry for the additional confusion.


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## gonewild (Apr 20, 2013)

Lets work through this and check all our math. i reserve the right to make mistakes until we are done!

You have 4 different dry ingredients to work with.

Your only source of potassium is from the stock mix at 65g/kg K
You only source for Phosphorous is the stock mix at 130g/kg P

The stock mix contains all the micros so we have to use it and accept what ever ratios and amounts of micros we end up with.
We won't be concerned with the ratio of Phosphorous for the same reason and we don't really know how much P to use with the low potassium anyway. 

K-lite has about 10 times more N than K.
So we start with one approach.

1 kg of stock mix + 3 kg of Calcium Nitrate
This mix will give you 4kg containing:
198g N from the stock mix + 465g N from the Calcium Nitrate = 663g of N
+
65g of K from the stock mix

Divide that by 4 and you get 165g of N and 16g of K per Kg.
That is about a 10:1 N/K ratio similar to K-lite ratio between the two elements.

Does this make sense so far?

Gotta take a walk on the beach, I'll be back later.


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## Trithor (Apr 20, 2013)

Sorry yes, it was 200g not mg


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## gonewild (Apr 20, 2013)

Back to post #59.....

we still need to add Mg and consider the amount of Ca but you need a water analysis to fine tune those.
Assuming you wanted to use this combo as is......

grams/kilogram
N = 165
P = 32.5
K = 16
Ca = 142
Fe = .004
Mn = .003
Zn = .005
Cu = .00075
B = .013
Mo = .005
*Mg = 0*

Add 1kg of the mixture to 100 liters of 0ppm water to make a stock solution.
1kg = 1000g
+
100 liters = 100000g 
=
101000 gr
of stock solution containing 165g of N

The stock solution would contain approximately 1650ppm of Nitrogen
Run that through your injector at 50:1 and the irrigation water would have: 33 ppm of Nitrogen
6.5 ppm of Phosphorous
3.2 ppm of Potassium
28.4 ppm of Ca

But there still is no Magnesium so we need to add it either with Magnesium Nitrate or Magnesium Sulfate. And then recalculate the above ppms of the other nutrients.

Are you understanding or confused more?


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## Rick (Apr 20, 2013)

Assuming he has almost RO grade water quality, I would add enough magsulfate to get 3-5 ppm Mg. He doesn't need to add any more nitrogen to the mix.


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## gonewild (Apr 20, 2013)

Rick said:


> Assuming he has almost RO grade water quality, I would add enough magsulfate to get 3-5 ppm Mg. He doesn't need to add any more nitrogen to the mix.



OK let's add 20g of Mg by adding 220g of Magnesium Sulfate to the 100 liter solution.

That should be about 4 ppm of Magnesium and about 6 ppm of Sulfur.

Now will this concentration stay in solution?


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## Rick (Apr 20, 2013)

gonewild said:


> OK let's add 20g of Mg by adding 220g of Magnesium Sulfate to the 100 liter solution.
> 
> That should be about 4 ppm of Magnesium and about 6 ppm of Sulfur.
> 
> Now will this concentration stay in solution?



Whats the concentration of CaSO4 at 50X strength.

Solubility of CaSO4 is about 2000 mg/L David C was getting overnight precip at 1500. At 2000+mg/L it precips much faster.


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## gonewild (Apr 20, 2013)

Rick said:


> Whats the concentration of CaSO4 at 50X strength.
> 
> Solubility of CaSO4 is about 2000 mg/L



Help on this part?


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## Rick (Apr 20, 2013)

gonewild said:


> Help on this part?



Wife hid calculator

Also is the mag sulfate and cal nitrate hydrated or anhydrous? Agri grades of both usually have a lot of waters of hydration.


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## gonewild (Apr 20, 2013)

Rick said:


> Wife hid calculator



You use a calculator?


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## Rick (Apr 20, 2013)

Rounding off for easy math you came up with a final Ca concentration of about 30 ppm so 50X is 1500ppm

You came up with about 6 ppm sulfur (I think that should be ~18ppm sulfate) so rounding to 20ppm X50 =1000. 

2000 ppm of CaSO4 is 571 mg Ca, but 1371 mg/SO4, a bit over 1028 ppm to get the slower precip at 1500 mg/L CaSO4 

So it looks like you have enough Ca but not quite enough SO4 to generate gypsum (fast) at 50X 

But this is Q&D math


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## Rick (Apr 20, 2013)

gonewild said:


> You use a calculator?



Depends on how many cups of coffee I've hadoke:oke:

Not enough today


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## gonewild (Apr 20, 2013)

So far....

1000g stock mix
3000g Calcium Nitrate
220g Magnesium Sulfate

1000g of the mixture mixed in 100 liter of water (pure)
and then diluted 50:1
gives a irrigation nutrient solution of:

Nitrogen 33 ppm
Phosphorous 6.5 ppm
Potassium 3.2 ppm
Calcium 28.4 ppm
Magnesium 4.0 ppm
Sulfur 6.0 ppm

Iron 0.44 ppm
Manganese 0.105 ppm
Zinc 0.05 ppm
Copper 0.008 ppm
Boron 0.13 ppm
Molybdenum 0.01 ppm

Someone check and look for errors.

You can test the solubility by mixing 
10g of the stock fertilizer + 30 gr Calcium Nitrate + 2.2g Magnesium Sulfate into 1 liter of water.
Mix each one separately in a portion of water (like 3 containers each with 333ml of water). After each one is completely dissolved pour them all together. 
Watch to see if anything precipitates (settles) out.

Also check the ppm of this sample solution by diluting it 50:1 with water. That sample will represent what would come out of your injector.


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## gonewild (Apr 20, 2013)

Rick said:


> Depends on how many cups of coffee I've hadoke:oke:
> 
> Not enough today



After the walk on the beach i can't seem to relate to gr, mg and ml. 
Probably because 3mg mixed in 5000 liters of water does not matter anyway.
:clap:


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## DavidCampen (Apr 20, 2013)

With the concentrate that I make with about 4000 ppm Ca and pH 5.5; I find that 250 ppm S from sulfate will not cause a precipitate while 375 ppm S from sulfate will cause a precipitate.


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## valenzino (Apr 21, 2013)

Trithor said:


> ...
> A portion of leaf tip die-back was as a result of a potting mix which I switched to. I started to use coconut husk chips, as good bark was not available. These coconut chips degraded to a mush over a six month period. The surface of the pot still looked great, but the problem lurked in the bottom of the pot...



Are you using CHC on all your plants that have probles
I've seen smilar problems in Asia due to mix of CHC + Hormons ...

As your fertilizer concentration is so low,I doubt that the problem is caused by it...(but auxins etc...in my opinion can affect the plant even in very small percentage if are active....)


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## Trithor (Apr 21, 2013)

Thanks everybody for all this assistance. Everything seems a lot clearer this morning (Probably because I am drinking coffee and not scotch) Now I feel confident enough to go to the greenhouse and mix up the test solutions and check for precipitation. Looks like I owe you all dinner, perhaps at WOC next year?


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## Trithor (Apr 21, 2013)

valenzino said:


> Are you using CHC on all your plants that have probles
> I've seen smilar problems in Asia due to mix of CHC + Hormons ...
> 
> As your fertilizer concentration is so low,I doubt that the problem is caused by it...(but auxins etc...in my opinion can affect the plant even in very small percentage if are active....)



I have nearly repotted all the plants that were in CHC, only a hundred or so to go, my job for this afternoon (as a hobby, growing orchids is a lot of work!). I think the leaf tip die back is a combo of the coco husk, high K and the presence of high Cl and F in the council water. My next project is to switch my watering over to RO water completely. My current RO does not supply enough to use pure, I use it to cut the council water in the hope that it at least improves the water quality. I also have a large rainwater tank which I use to add to the whole system to reduce my reliance on the mains water supply, but in winter (our dry season) I am heavily reliant on council water, a situation I badly need to correct.


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## Trithor (Apr 21, 2013)

So let me see if I understand the math here. If I work out the ppm of the solution I used yesterday,
200g stock in 10 litres, run through the injector at 1 in 50 should give me a ppm of arround 77.6?
200g in 10,000g water = 10,200g
198g/kg N = 39,6gN in 10,200g
3882.3 ppm in concentrate
with 1 in 50 dilution = 77.65ppm?


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## Rick (Apr 21, 2013)

Trithor said:


> high Cl and F in the council water.



F shouldn't be much more than a ppm or so. It generally only shows up in the drinking water supply as an additive. At neutral to high pH it generally plates out with calcium.

Would really like to see a water chem report for your council water.


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## gonewild (Apr 21, 2013)

Trithor said:


> So let me see if I understand the math here. If I work out the ppm of the solution I used yesterday,
> 200g stock in 10 litres, run through the injector at 1 in 50 should give me a ppm of arround 77.6?
> 200g in 10,000g water = 10,200g
> 198g/kg N = 39,6gN in 10,200g
> ...



Yes


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## gonewild (Apr 21, 2013)

Trithor said:


> Thanks everybody for all this assistance. Everything seems a lot clearer this morning (Probably because I am drinking coffee and not scotch) Now I feel confident enough to go to the greenhouse and mix up the test solutions and check for precipitation. Looks like I owe you all dinner, perhaps at WOC next year?



What is the ppm of your scotch? Maybe we need to see what the problem is?
If you are mixing it with water we still need to see that water analysis.
:rollhappy:

Remember that what ever is in your supply water will add to the PPMs in your final irrigation water.


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## Trithor (Apr 21, 2013)

Wheweeee! At long last I am starting to understand this ppm thing! As for mixing my scotch with council water, no way! I bring back water from the farm for that, tastes much better. Tomorrow I will hunt down a water test, and if I cant find a recent one, I will send water away for a test.
Now for that scotch ........


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## gonewild (Apr 21, 2013)

Trithor said:


> Wheweeee! At long last I am starting to understand this ppm thing! As for mixing my scotch with council water, no way! I bring back water from the farm for that, tastes much better. Tomorrow I will hunt down a water test, and if I cant find a recent one, I will send water away for a test.
> Now for that scotch ........



OK now we know the actual problem. Do you thing for a minute that your orchids don't know you are keeping the best water for yourself? I suppose you drink it in front of the too?
:sob:


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## Trithor (Apr 22, 2013)

Its all about balance, they live in a nicer house than me, and I drink scotch with better water than them? Or perhaps it is just the fact that the scotch affects my reasoning?


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## gonewild (Apr 22, 2013)

Trithor said:


> Its all about balance, they live in a nicer house than me, and I drink scotch with better water than them? Or perhaps it is just the fact that the scotch affects my reasoning?



In the Peruvian Andes the people (all farmers) always offer a small part of an alcoholic drink to the Pachamama (Mother Earth). They do this by tipping their glass to allow a small amount to spill to the ground. As they do this they thank the Pachamama for all she shares. The Pachamama repays this thoughtful act with bountiful crops. It is all about respect.......

It's Earth Day.... Maybe a good day to tip a glass to your orchids?

:clap:


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## Trithor (Apr 22, 2013)

Great idea! I will pour myself a scotch and head to the greenhouse. Any idea how scotch will affect my orchids? I am a bit concerned that they may keep us and the neighbours up all night with enthusiastic singing!


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## gonewild (Apr 22, 2013)

> Trithor said:
> 
> 
> > Great idea! I will pour myself a scotch and head to the greenhouse. Any idea how scotch will affect my orchids?
> ...


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## cnycharles (Apr 22, 2013)

Trithor said:


> Great idea! I will pour myself a scotch and head to the greenhouse. Any idea how scotch will affect my orchids? I am a bit concerned that they may keep us and the neighbours up all night with enthusiastic singing!



I have a feeling that scotch might contribute to root loss, but it would probably kill scale and mealybugs


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## Trithor (Apr 23, 2013)

cnycharles said:


> I have a feeling that scotch might contribute to root loss, but it would probably kill scale and mealybugs



Never noticed it getting rid of scale and mealybugs on me, it has bumped a few brain cells I am sure! All about 'swings and round-abouts', so a few roots for happy disposition is a fair swap.


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## cnycharles (Apr 23, 2013)

sorry, I was intending mild humor but forgot to add the smiley  I was substituting 'root loss' for 'brain cell loss' or liver damage


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