# Paph spicerianum



## Rick Barry (Nov 14, 2008)

Paph spicerianum 'St. Elsewhere' x 'Boss'

From a really outstanding cross that produced plants that are uniformly excellent in size, form, and color. Last year a group of these were brought to a judging session for consideration for an Award of Quality, but one of the judges insisted that they were actually hybrids, based upon some detail in the staminodes. Since the cross was made by the Orchid Zone, I'm very skeptical of such a claim, and so is nearly everyone else who has seen these plants. You can decide for yourself.







Regards,
Rick


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## biothanasis (Nov 14, 2008)

This is so great, like every spicerianum!!! When will I obtain mine???


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## P-chan (Nov 14, 2008)

It sure looks like spicerianum to me. And a beauty, at that!


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## Candace (Nov 14, 2008)

Yes, I've heard all about that. Word sure gets around;> Isn't this the group of plants that have the flatter than normal dorsals, too?


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## SlipperFan (Nov 14, 2008)

Looks like spice to me. I wonder what about the staminode isn't spice? I don't see it.


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## Corbin (Nov 14, 2008)

SlipperFan said:


> Looks like spice to me. I wonder what about the staminode isn't spice? I don't see it.



With this thought in mind I thought that doesn’t look like mine. 






Then I went to http://www.slipperorchids.info/paphspecies/index.html There seems to be quite a variety. It would be nice to know the specifics as to what they thought was wrong.


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## Rick Barry (Nov 14, 2008)

There is a P. spicerianum in the possession of a prominent Japanese collector that apparently has an unusually flat dorsal (relative, no doubt, to the usual funnel-shape) and I believe that plant is in the ancestry of the cross in question. If there is any basis for questioning whether the Zone's spicerianums are true species plants, it has to be based upon the inclusion of that specific plant in the family tree. To argue that this group is actually hybrid you must first prove that this specific ancestor is a hybrid. That would be difficult, since it is unlikely the owner would be willing to offer his plant for inspection, given its probable value. Certainly, the plant is roundly accepted to be Paph. spicerianum.

The judge himself has declared the staminode as the decisive factor in making his declaration. I won't try to explain his rationale, but that is where he anchored his claim.

The Zone plants don't have what you would call particularly flat dorsals. They may be large, but so are the rest of the floral segments. 

Actually, I've talked with nearly everyone concerned, and definitely have heard both sides of the story. The judge who declared the cross to be a hybrid told me months ago that he was writing a paper to clarify and support his position. He deserves credit for that, because he risks being scrutinized at the procedural level. Awards can be granted provisionally, subject to confirmation from an orchid identification center like Selby. Assuming any of the plants were awardable, that might have been the best approach.


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## Corbin (Nov 15, 2008)

Are there genetic test that can be done?


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## JeanLux (Nov 15, 2008)

Looks like a spicerianum to me, but with a much better shape and color than mine  !!! Jean


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## rdlsreno (Nov 15, 2008)

As I know it, the clone 'Boss' came from a selfing or sib of the clone 'Bostock's' of Ratcliffe which the dorsal remains flat for several days before curving back some of its siblings went to Japan. (see Tropical Slipper Orchids by Koopowitz page 145). If you notice, the color and shape is very similar to the one's coming from OZ. The clone 'St. Elsewhere' came from the clone 'St. Albans' which is a very good old jungle collected clone. I am posting a picture of a clone that won (I think) best paph species in the recent WOC the clone 'Super' a clone from a selfing of 'St. Albans' (see the similarity of the staminode to the bottom picture of 'St. Albans'). Also, I will post a staminode of a plant that came from OZ and that of the clone 'Super' They are so varied. Some say it should be green but if you look at Cribb description, it can be colored yolk-yellow (Cribb page 273). They say that it might be infused with the hybrid that was awarded many years ago 'Marshall' (notice no green or yellow 'X' mark at the center of the staminode). Which I think should make the flower huge since it has a NS of 10.5 cm. but the flowers that are coming form OZ are of the typical size of 6.5 to 7.5 cm. Other say that the serration at the tip of the petal is an indication that it is a hybrid (Paph. Bruno 'Model') but it can also come from ploidy of the plant. The award photo of 'Marshall' and 'St. Albans' are courtesy of AOS slide file.

This are just my observations.

Ramon

clone 'Super'




staminode




clone 'chunky' from OZ




staminode




'Marshall'




'St. Albans'


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## aquacorps (Nov 15, 2008)

Rick, when you get a copy of the judge's paper i would be interested in getting a copy. Is the paper going to be peered reviewed? Is the judge a taxonomist? Rusty


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## Candace (Nov 15, 2008)

I'd like to open this discussion a little further. We've had example after example of plants mislabeled incorrectly and then awarded. The judges catch flack for not catching the incorrect parentage and giving the award. But, on the other hand, if a judge stands up and claims the parentage is in question, it seems he's "damned if he does, damned if he doesn't". So, what exactly should a judge do when he questions the parentage of a certain plant? As in the case of these spicerianums? I would think a provisional award would be given and based on taxonomist approval, awarded or not awarded. From what I understand, a taxonomist saw the plant photos and agrees with the judge, that it's a hybrid. Of course, rumor and gossip turns much truth into playing 'Telephone'.


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## Rick (Nov 15, 2008)

I think this also goes back to all our debates on definition of species and natural variation of a species. This flower looks 95% like every other spicerianum to me, so to be invalidated as the "true" species based on a subtle detail of the staminode seems pretty harsh. What about the possibility of a sport (mutation)? In this case it wouldn't take much of one (compared to going albino or melanistic) to change the color of the staminode center spot. If it was a hybrid then with what? And then it would need to be back crossed to spicerianum several more times to result in this flower. I can't imagine why anyone would expend that much time and effort just to make a super spicer. 

I think this also makes a catch 22 for giving quality awards to species since there must be variation to imply judgmental differences in quality, but the variation is simultaneously considered as evidence of hybridization (and subsequently disqualified).


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## aquacorps (Nov 15, 2008)

If the judge has "evidence" and the backing of a taxonomist I believe he has the duty to present his paper/findings to other judges. By not presenting their findings (and the basis for them) the judge and taxonomist are undermining the judging system. I find it difficult to believe that a person would spend over seven years becoming a judge and not try to uphold the judging sytem, especially when he has the backing of a taxonomist. rusty


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## Candace (Nov 15, 2008)

I'm confused. When a judge disqualifies a plant from judging, why would he have to write a paper? If person X submits a plant for judging and Judge Y says it's not a specie, but a hybrid and disqualifies it. What does person X do if he believes Judge Y is wrong? Does X take it to another judging center? File a written complaint with the AOS? How is it ultimately resolved? Does a written statement from a taxonomist have to be submitted and who would pay for this?


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## Rick (Nov 15, 2008)

Candace said:


> I'm confused. When a judge disqualifies a plant from judging, why would he have to write a paper? If person X submits a plant for judging and Judge Y says it's not a specie, but a hybrid and disqualifies it. What does person X do if he believes Judge Y is wrong? Does X take it to another judging center? File a written complaint with the AOS? How is it ultimately resolved? Does a written statement from a taxonomist have to be submitted and who would pay for this?



For provisional awards the flower is sent to an AOS sanctioned taxonomist for verification at no cost (other than shipping) to the flower owner. And I believe their is a structure for petitioning the AOS over such grievances including the presentation of new taxonomic imformation. However taxonomists are only as good as the keys they have available, and for species coming from remote and inaccessible places on this earth these keys are generally based on very limited material.


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## aquacorps (Nov 15, 2008)

Candice, sorry to confuse you. Who is the judge and the taxonomist? Simple straight forward question. Rusty


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## Candace (Nov 15, 2008)

I'd prefer not to name names, especially since my info. is from gossip/heresay. It sounds like the best way for judges to handle these situations are to grant the provisional award and let the taxonomists decide. And maybe this is the written or unwritten rule? Of course, what happens when taxonomists disagree? Sticky situation.


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## Corbin (Nov 15, 2008)

When are the judge's and the taxonomist's reports expected to be out? I hope their reports can be posted here so that we all can read them and we can discuss their findings. I am no taxonomist but I am eager to learn.


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## rdlsreno (Nov 15, 2008)

Candace said:


> I'd prefer not to name names, especially since my info. is from gossip/heresay. It sounds like the best way for judges to handle these situations are to grant the provisional award and let the taxonomists decide. And maybe this is the written or unwritten rule? Of course, what happens when taxonomists disagree? Sticky situation.



I agree!!!


Ramon


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## rdlsreno (Nov 15, 2008)

Rick Barry said:


> There is a P. spicerianum in the possession of a prominent Japanese collector that apparently has an unusually flat dorsal (relative, no doubt, to the usual funnel-shape) and I believe that plant is in the ancestry of the cross in question. If there is any basis for questioning whether the Zone's spicerianums are true species plants, it has to be based upon the inclusion of that specific plant in the family tree. To argue that this group is actually hybrid you must first prove that this specific ancestor is a hybrid. That would be difficult, since it is unlikely the owner would be willing to offer his plant for inspection, given its probable value. Certainly, the plant is roundly accepted to be Paph. spicerianum.
> 
> The judge himself has declared the staminode as the decisive factor in making his declaration. I won't try to explain his rationale, but that is where he anchored his claim.
> 
> ...



Here is I think is a link to the picture of that particular plant that came from Japan which garnered a FCC/JOS. http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~PAPHIO-IN-OKINAWA/aakansai1.htm#label0. You can see that it do have a similar staminode of a spicerianum but I think the pouch and petals are to green.

Ramon


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## tim (Nov 15, 2008)

Candace,

To answer your question, yes it is absolutely a written procedural rule in AOS judging that when the authenticity of a species is in doubt, the award is to be given provisionally pending identification by the Species Identification Task Force of the AOS. The SITF is comprised of 4-5 members who are good at IDing species. If they cannot tell if something is a species, then they are able to request that it be professionally IDed at the time and expense of the exhibitor. A professional identification must be made using a preserved (pickled) flower. Typically, costs for shipping the flower, time allotted to collecting the flower, and the cost of professional IDing (usually $50 or so) is enough to discourage exhibitors from intentionally mis-IDing species.

The problem with this pathway is that sometimes taxonomists make mistakes!! Such is life I guess...but the procedure is definitely there and documented and written down. I'll be very interested to read the report.

Hope this helps clarify a muddy situation...

-Tim


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## Candace (Nov 15, 2008)

Thanks, Tim.


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## Heather (Nov 16, 2008)

tim said:


> Species Identification Task Force of the AOS.
> -Tim



OMG, this actually exists? Plant people....way too serious!


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## Rick (Nov 16, 2008)

Heather said:


> OMG, this actually exists? Plant people....way too serious!



There is also a less serious group. I have a plant that received a CHM (which all require taxonomic verification before awarding). I just had to send it in to a single AOS sanctioned taxonomic authority, and it only cost me shipping.

I guess the big guns are pulled out for more serious grievances.


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## SlipperFan (Nov 16, 2008)

Interesting discussion. I'm glad I'm not a judge!


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## tim (Nov 16, 2008)

SITF is a recent change; Rick's experience is how CHMs and CBRs used to be treated, but it's changed now. It's just a name, and, quite frankly, it's significantly less formal than the certified taxonomist protocol that used to be the case. That's the whole idea, although I agree the name is a little high-falutin.


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## paphioland (Nov 16, 2008)

I have tried to hold my tongue. I was actually there when this ridiculous situation occurred. The Judge was Alan Koch. He single handily claimed that these were hybrids. In the write up he based this on the slight variation in leaf width and length. Also a reference to color with green dots-yellow dots in the staminode that I don't agree with. Wild Spicers have these. He also made a claim to have himself spread a hybrid years ago all over. So of course since these were so nice these must have come from this hybrid.LOL. He also claimed to be an expert in taxonomy. I saw hundreds if not over a thousand in bloom with my own eyes. I picked out what I thought were the four best at the time and took them home with me. The point is that the flowers were incredibly uniform. Uniformly great. There was no evidence of this being a hybrid out of over a thousand plants. I looked through them all. I am very curious to see this article and to see how he is going to explain this. He also violated the protocol that Tim correctly described on what a judge is supposed to do if the species label is called into question. They should have gotten a provisional award.


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## Rick (Nov 17, 2008)

paphioland said:


> In the write up he based this on the slight variation in leaf width and length.



Shoot!!!! different growing conditions can cause variation in leaf width/length ratios!!


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## NYEric (Nov 18, 2008)

Terroriste Genetique!


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## biothanasis (Nov 18, 2008)

Fussy procedures...!!!!


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## Rick Barry (Nov 19, 2008)

It is an interesting subject, because it puts a sharp focus on the lack of respect on the part of many breeders towards the judging system. To really appreciate the negative effect the events on that night might have on the reputation of the judging system, you first must consider the context.

Growers unfamiliar with our own regional judging here in the Bay Area might question how knowing the grower or breeder of a plant might affect a judge's evaluation of the plant itself. Besides, aren't the judges supposed to be ignorant regarding the ownership of plants? Isn't that what they mean about being impartial? There may have been a small number of judges there that night who didn't instantly recognize the plants as being from the Zone, but you can be certain that they were quickly informed by those who did.

If my copy of OrchidWiz is right, there has never been an AQ awarded to any group of Paph spicerianums. That an AQ is awarded to any line-bred species is rare enough, but to do so for the first time is historic. Lets not pretend that this was just any other monthly judging session. That any group of plants from the Zone are presented is a real rarity. That fact alone made this not just another night. The potential importance of that night made it doubly important that the judges get the job done right, because you can be certain that any group of plants from the Zone had Terry Root's personal approval with respect to quality. These plants were undoubtedly 'the good stuff'. 

Apparently there is little debate over whether an AQ would have been granted had the plants not been declared to be hybrids. That implies that there would have been quality awards given to at least some of the individual plants. 

I have no problem with someone who wishes to voice his own minority opinions, but I hate to see anyone trying to force such opinions upon the majority. It also leaves me with diminished regard for those would let force of personality overwhelm their own personal judgment. Did anybody even whisper the word 'provisional'? Maybe some of the judges don't particularly like Paphs, and were just itching to go home. Why did they bother to show up, in the first place? Were all the judges with backbones meeting elsewhere?

I think that the AOS needs to take a serious look at the judging system, a system that is deeply in need of reform. I think they need to bridge the gap between what judges want and what breeders are trying to achieve. They can oftentimes be at odds.


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## aquacorps (Nov 19, 2008)

Still waiting for the name of the taxonomist who backs Mr. Koch.


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## penangirl (Oct 31, 2012)

people on power trips need to be judged.
my question is, could someone else who happens to own this cross now bring it to a judging center,to be awarded.


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