# Paph.rothschildianum 'Mont Millais' flask



## kiwi (Jul 17, 2019)

I am thinking about buying a flask of Paph.rothschildianum 'Mont Millais' FCC/RHS,AOS x self from Tokyo Orchid Nursery but was wondering if there is any point as this won’t produce anything that hasn’t already been bloomed. Do the roth experts out there think that this is a waste of time or would you buy it. It is expensive so don’t want to waste money


----------



## emydura (Jul 18, 2019)

I'm sure it would produce some nice flowers but if Paphioland was still on this forum, he would say it is not a step forward. Compared to the better clones, the flowers on MM are pretty small. I think flasks from TON involving clones such as Tarantula or Tokyo Fantasy would be better bets.


----------



## troy (Jul 18, 2019)

The consensus is wider bigger leaves = bigger flowers, the roth specialists give their plants some growth hormone to boost their size, phytohormones or colchicine or both


----------



## emydura (Jul 20, 2019)

Interesting that on the TON website they have divisions of MM and 'Tokyo Fantasy' for sale. The MM division is way more expensive. In Australian dollars that would $14,250 for the MM and $9,860 for the Tokyo Fantasy. I am not sure if they are the same size divisions. MM is a proven breeder. I am not sure about 'Tokyo Fantasy'.


----------



## Ozpaph (Jul 21, 2019)

Im told the MM x self seedlings often grow slowly.
I didnt buy any.
The newer hybrids should be better. Personally cant wait for the "King Kong' crosses to flower (in 6-8 years)


----------



## kiwi (Jul 21, 2019)

I agree the King King crosses are exciting. I will also pass on the MM flask.


----------



## emydura (Jul 22, 2019)

Ozpaph said:


> Im told the MM x self seedlings often grow slowly.
> I didnt buy any.
> The newer hybrids should be better. Personally cant wait for the "King Kong' crosses to flower (in 6-8 years)



You must be growing yours well. I think mine will take a bit longer.

I agree about the King Kong breeding. Now that should be a step forward.


----------



## Fabrice (Jul 22, 2019)

Difficult to compare plants from several generations of selection to a wild collected plant.

MM and its story will be always in my eyes an extraordinary clone because "made by nature". (Like some other very good too but less famous)

If you choose MM selfing, you will obtain probably some similar one and possibly better one.

Except the last generation from OZ what is really impressive but not in my taste for many plants, I asked me recently where is the last generation produce with Tarantula, Perfection, Leo, etc... from Val x MM or MM x Val? I think MM is a wonderful plant but Val was not.

Same question about Raptor? The cross with New Horizon is very difficult to grow, not vigourous.
Perfecto x Raptor is easy to grow. 
So, even if you cross 2 recent roth. , not sure to obtain vigorous seedlings

I'm a fanatic of roth. No question for me to grow only in my collection the "caricatural" plants from OZ what are "BIG MUSCLES" flower. The charm is not only in the size for sure.

For your choice, depend to you taste and your space in your growing area. If you like last generation only, don't buy MM x self. If you like what is really rothschildianum from the beggining of the story until now, this flask is for you. If you have space and money, choose the 2!


----------



## Guldal (Jul 22, 2019)

I recently at our local mastergrower, Hans Christiansen, in Fredensborg, saw a division of MM in bloom. The flowers might not have been the mega-biggest, I've seen, though they could in no way be called small. But the proportions of the flowers, its colours and their interplay, made it in my eyes as close to perfection as can be.

In this sense, one can only second Fabrice. So many parameters can be the foundation for a decision like kiwi's - apart from the latest fads in breeding and judging, and the breedability of the plants; one also has to reckon with one's personal, aesthetic preferences....and here the old adage comes true: it's all in the eyes of the beholder. As Fabrice's example with some of the OZ-clones amply illustrates: what to one person might be seen as a huge step forward, might for another be a caricature!



emydura said:


> Interesting that on the TON website they have divisions of MM and 'Tokyo Fantasy' for sale. The MM division is way more expensive.


 Maybe, here is yet another paramter at stake - as Sam of Orhcid Inn probably would put it: here you buy a piece of history! 

Kind regards,
Jens


----------



## Fabrice (Jul 23, 2019)

2 things it's necessary to not forget:

1- the quality of growing conditions (and the culture secrets!) are very important for the quality, size and even color bloom. Tarantula bloomed in the past with 39cms dark flower by the TON. I'm almost sure 95% of roth. lover in the world (me too!) couldn't bloom it with this quality, particulary with this size.
Several personns told me MM bloomed in he past with 32cms flower while many personns bloom it 27/28cms.

2-About Tokyo Fantasy against Mont Millais, The 1st one is a very good plant from the 1st generation of roth. (MM x Val) . Even if it's a very nice plant, it's not sure it's a good parent. On the contrary, MM proved it was consistently a good parent with exceptionnal genetic potential. 
So, even if the size of the division could influence the price, I'm not surprised MM is much expensive.


----------



## NYEric (Jul 23, 2019)

emydura said:


> In Australian dollars that would $14,250 for the MM and $9,860 for the Tokyo Fantasy.]


Bahahhhahahhha!! Ha!


----------



## Guldal (Jul 23, 2019)

NYEric said:


> Bahahhhahahhha!! Ha!



Eric, is your pattern of laughter to be interpreted as 'Bahahhhahahhha!!' - wild and crazy laughter + 'Ha!' - more of a sarcastic snort?

Or are you, actually, aiming more towards 'Muhahahaha Haaaa!' - sinister, evil laughter?


----------



## emydura (Jul 24, 2019)

Guldal said:


> I recently at our local mastergrower, Hans Christiansen, in Fredensborg, saw a division of MM in bloom. The flowers might not have been the mega-biggest, I've seen, though they could in no way be called small. But the proportions of the flowers, its colours and their interplay, made it in my eyes as close to perfection as can be.
> 
> In this sense, one can only second Fabrice. So many parameters can be the foundation for a decision like kiwi's - apart from the latest fads in breeding and judging, and the breedability of the plants; one also has to reckon with one's personal, aesthetic preferences....and here the old adage comes true: it's all in the eyes of the beholder. As Fabrice's example with some of the OZ-clones amply illustrates: what to one person might be seen as a huge step forward, might for another be a caricature!
> 
> ...



Yes, certainly buying a piece of history. It is quite simply the most important roth clone of all in terms of modern breeding.

I guess size is relative. MM is larger than any roth I have flowered but small compared to clones such as these. Size isn't everything as you say.




[/URL]

There haven't been a lot of great photos of MM on the internet. So it has never been put in a good light. Justin has recently posted some nice ones. I think this is the best one I have seen from TON. The colour and presentation are magnificent.







I still don't think there is much point in buying a selfing of MM. It has already been selfed previously, so it is not new. Given it is such a great breeder, I would rather have it crossed with some of the bigger clones in the list above. It tends to bring out the best in such crosses.


----------



## emydura (Jul 24, 2019)

Fabrice said:


> 1- the quality of growing conditions (and the culture secrets!) are very important for the quality, size and even color bloom. Tarantula bloomed in the past with 39cms dark flower by the TON. I'm almost sure 95% of roth. lover in the world (me too!) couldn't bloom it with this quality, particulary with this size.
> .



True. I don't think even TON have flowered it at that size since.


----------



## Fabrice (Jul 24, 2019)

Right David. The best compromise is probably MM x "last generation good clone". I would prefer that to "last generation" x "last generation".

But as it's almost impossible to buy a MM division, it's interesting (in my opinion!) to have a good selfing of it in a collection. Just to remember what was a very good wild roth before the selection permanently erases the original memory.


----------



## Paph Paradise (Jul 24, 2019)

Fabrice said:


> Right David. The best compromise is probably MM x "last generation good clone". I would prefer that to "last generation" x "last generation".
> 
> But as it's almost impossible to buy a MM division, it's interesting (in my opinion!) to have a good selfing of it in a collection. Just to remember what was a very good wild roth before the selection permanently erases the original memory.



I agree that the way to go is MM x something new. Since we sell TON plants here I had the opportunity to buy the MM x self flasks but I passed. I felt there would be more demand for the MM outcrosses, and I'm really not a huge fan of selfings. Especially in something as slow as a roth. Outcrossing will give more vigor and we rely on sib crosses for enhancing traits we desire. 

There seems to be a tremendous amount of mystique surrounding 'Tarantula'. TON certainly gets top dollar for divisions. The Tarantula crosses were the first to sell out for us last year. We put it onto 'Dark Angel' this year. I think brining these OZ crosses into the TON mix will give us some tremendous results. I guess we will find out in 100 months or so (somehow sounds less intimidating than 8+ years!)

Dave


----------



## Duck Slipper (Jul 25, 2019)

This is an excellent topic to read and follow. All of the different opinions, of different crosses and breeding is fascinating. Tarantula and King Kong, growth hormones, phytohormones, colchicine. Interesting thread!


----------



## Justin (Jul 26, 2019)

My division of MM reached 31cm NS this year. Will post some pics when I get a chance.


----------



## kiwi (Jul 26, 2019)

I look forward to the photos. Justin what do you think are the most important factors to ensure that roths flower? Apart from age.


----------



## Paph Paradise (Jul 26, 2019)

kiwi said:


> I look forward to the photos. Justin what do you think are the most important factors to ensure that roths flower? Apart from age.



The Orchid Zone used to force blooming out of season in February for sales during show season. The accomplished this by chilling the plants in late fall, then ramping up the temperature. Terry grew these plants very warm with nights at 65 F as I recall.

Along with good nutrition including calcium, roths need plenty of light and warmth to beat their best. We had a cold, exceptionally wet and dark winter and it was our poorest blooming season ever for them. Low flower counts and short spikes with flowers in the foliage.

Dave


----------



## Justin (Jul 27, 2019)

Dave pretty much nailed it on the culture.


----------



## Justin (Jul 27, 2019)

Actually it was shy of 31 cm, around 30.5 this year. That is the best it has done. On the other hand this year it only had four flowers. It usually has five. Here's a photo from 2016. And 2019 pic with ruler.


----------



## kiwi (Jul 27, 2019)

That’s absolutely awesome.


----------



## emydura (Jul 28, 2019)

That is amazing Justin. Great growing. It seems incredible that it could increase in size so much compared to when it was awarded an FCC.

Is the DS wider than 5.5 cm?


----------



## gego (Jul 28, 2019)

*Fantastic!!!*


----------



## Justin (Jul 29, 2019)

emydura said:


> That is amazing Justin. Great growing. It seems incredible that it could increase in size so much compared to when it was awarded an FCC.
> 
> Is the DS wider than 5.5 cm?



Thanks! Yes 6.0 dorsal. 1.5 cm PW.

Very vigorous grower too. Really has it all!


----------



## Guldal (Jul 29, 2019)

It's adorable- I simply love it!!!

Would (almost) kill for a division! 

Kind regards, Jens


----------



## NYEric (Aug 6, 2019)

Guldal said:


> Eric, is your pattern of laughter to be interpreted as 'Bahahhhahahhha!!' - wild and crazy laughter + 'Ha!' - more of a sarcastic snort?
> 
> Or are you, actually, aiming more towards 'Muhahahaha Haaaa!' - sinister, evil laughter?


That's the sound that rational people emit when someone says that they spent 1/2 a car to buy an orchid!


----------



## Guldal (Aug 6, 2019)

NYEric said:


> That's the sound that rational people emit when someone says that they spent 1/2 a car to buy an orchid!


----------



## Fabrice (Aug 7, 2019)

Thank you Justin!

MM well cultivated is awesome and more charm in my eyes than many OZ last crosses. The worst in my eyes with the OZ selection is the too width petals.


----------



## musa (Aug 9, 2019)

wow! I'm stunned...


----------

