# cross with tranlienianum



## fibre (Mar 26, 2017)

I'm interested in your opinions.
If you would use a _Paph. tranlienianum_ for breeding, what would be your goals? What traits would you like to see in its progenies?


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## MorandiWine (Mar 26, 2017)

The only real advantage that I would see using tran in hybrids would be to make smaller sized plants. The dorsal curl and petal ruffles would likely dominate. Crossing with other plants that have these traits might be interesting.


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## fibre (Mar 27, 2017)

I really like the ruffles of tranlienianum's petals and the curl of its dorsal. But 'I don't like it's dull color. That's why I prefer its albine green form. 



MorandiWine said:


> Crossing with other plants that have these traits might be interesting.



What other Paphs do you think of? P. fairrieanum, coccineum, spicerianum, sanderianum?


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## PaphMadMan (Mar 27, 2017)

Crossing with another curled dorsal ruffled petal type is the type of breeding that has been registered more than anything else - with Paph spicerianum and a few spicer heavy complex like Bruno. The 2 pictures I have seen really just look a lot like spicer. Yawn.

Crosses with Maudiae-types have also been registered, and a couple with small species like helenae and barbigerum. Crosses with villosum, fairrieanum and wardii complete the list of registered hybrids. 

Rather than dull, I think some of the darker forms of tranlienanum are quite attractive, and I think that intensity of color of those is worth breeding with. The small size can contribute to teacup types. The very ruffled petals are interesting, especially in the ones that have a white edge.

What is conspicuous is the complete lack of brachy, parvi, cochlo and multifloral crosses. Also complex crosses other than spicer heavy types. 

I would try brachy crosses, either the heavily spotted to almost solid dark forms or go for small size with thaianum and niveum. Also parvi, with delenatii or vietnamense or their hybrids. Pick any colorful cochlo to get to small very ruffled semi-sequentials. Maybe a spotted red complex. But what I'd really like to see is a cross with a dark flowered twisty petal multifloral - get that white edge, see how the ruffles and twists combine, on a small plant with 2-3 flowers. Oh, and Paph henryanum for sure.


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## mrhappyrotter (Mar 27, 2017)

It really depends on what your expectations are. I just don't think Paph. tranlienianum has the potential to result in any really great primary hybrids. My assumption is that it would muddy and mute the colors of anything you crossed it with. It's almost certainly going to "ruin" any attempts to create the traditional flat, round shapes that are popular these days. The main thing it has going for it is that it's a small grower, though obviously there are species like P. helenae that would achieve the goal of reducing plant size while also being better suited to preserving color and form.

That being said you could see how it goes, and test the genes with some other species that tend to produce really good hybrids. Cross it with P. delenatii and you're guaranteed lots of pink. You can see how it goes with P. henryanum and hope it picks up some of the color and charm. Same goes with choosing a nice, colorful complex hybrid to cross it with, you might end up with a few really good clones out of that.

Something else you might consider is just foregoing color and just crossing it with things of a similar palette such as P. spicerianum, P. dianthum, or P. kolopakingii. The tranlienianum's size should reduce the size of a kolo hybrid, and who knows, you might end up with some clones bearing 5 or more flowers.


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## JAB (Mar 27, 2017)

I agree with Mori, but overall I think the ruffled petals are gorgeous and natural in all species!


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## fibre (Mar 28, 2017)

Thanks for your inspiring input! I especially like the idea to intensify the dark color and to cross it with dark flowering brachys. This is something I would never have thought of by myself. 
And I think it is a good point to keep an eye on the white edge of the petals too!

I'm not sure about the plant size of P. tranlienianum. In my experience they are small plants when they are in flower the first time. They are as small as P. helenae then. But they can grow on to leave size like P. spicerianum or even bigger.


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## fibre (Mar 28, 2017)

*Paphiopedilum Philippo Lippi*

So this is what I have done: I put some pollen of a short leaved P. _tranlienianum_ on the old style white complex hybrid P. Greensuds. This one is mostly P. F.C.Puddle. I've chosen this one because its leaves are relatively short and the flowers have narrow petals rather than the broad petals of todays complex hybrids. I liked to keep as much as possible from the natural charm of the _P. tranlienianum_. 

Unfortunately I got back from the lab only about 20 seedlings. This probably is the fault of the P. F.C.Puddle background from P. Greensuds. Four of these have flowered so far and I registered it as _Paphiopedilum_ Philippo Lippi
This one is the best of them:


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## MorandiWine (Mar 28, 2017)

Interesting outcome! 

A couple years ago I did cross tran with jackii. The seed was sent off to my former flasking service only to fail due to multiple attempts all resulting in contamination. 

I do like your idea of using complexes, might have to play again......


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## JAB (Mar 28, 2017)

Not bad!


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## fibre (Mar 28, 2017)

MorandiWine said:


> A couple years ago I did cross tran with jackii. The seed was sent off to my former flasking service only to fail due to multiple attempts all resulting in contamination.



That's really sad!


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## tnyr5 (Mar 28, 2017)

A good red complex x tran would be my pick. The eventual goal would be a deep chocolate-brown complex with a white dorsal. Might be a good idea to use a tetraploid tranlienianum, though.


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## myxodex (Mar 31, 2017)

Nice result with big staminode. For me the proportionately large staminode on tranlienianum is part of it's charm.

My fantasy cross would be alba hookerae x alba tranlienianum, ... and hope that the albinism is not complementary, ....although it wouldn't surprise me if the alba hookerae no longer exists.


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## fibre (Apr 1, 2017)

myxodex said:


> Nice result with big staminode. For me the proportionately large staminode on tranlienianum is part of it's charm.


Oh yes you are right with the staminode! But also the special shape of the tranlienianum pouch - it isn't visible so clearly here, but it contributes a nice smiling face to this flower. 




myxodex said:


> My fantasy cross would be alba hookerae x alba tranlienianum, ... and hope that the albinism is not complementary, ....although it wouldn't surprise me if the alba hookerae no longer exists.



This is a very exclusive fantasy!
I would be happy to *own* a hookerae alba!


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