# Continual irrigation??



## quaker (Sep 17, 2011)

Just set my phrags on a continual drip irrigation system on the advise of one of the best phrag and paph growers in the UK. His multifloral paphs are really a sight to behold and I was wondering if anyone else has experience of watering this way. He says that the continual process of water passing thru' the compost eliminates any chance of stagnant water hence he can keep running continually.. He doesn't use rockwool and doesn't repot very often.

Ed


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## gonewild (Sep 17, 2011)

A continual water flow would work great on phrags as long as you don't recirculate the water without monitor the chemistry.

One side effect might be that the plants grow adapted to the constant flow and if you stop the method they may suffer.


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## John M (Sep 18, 2011)

quaker said:


> Just set my phrags on a continual drip irrigation system on the advise of one of the best phrag and paph growers in the UK. His multifloral paphs are really a sight to behold and I was wondering if anyone else has experience of watering this way. He says that the continual process of water passing thru' the compost eliminates any chance of stagnant water hence he can keep running continually.. He doesn't use rockwool and doesn't repot very often.
> 
> Ed



Very interesting! So, what does he use as potting medium?


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## Roth (Sep 18, 2011)

Is he Alan Burdis or John Gay? They both are excellent UK growers using this kind of setup....

It is working perfectly well, providing the irrigation water is properly monitored, fertilizer, buffering capacity, pH... Now if the setup stops working for a day, the roots will not be in the best possible condition, and the plants can eventually collapse. I used something similar before, with a daily watering schedule for rothschildianum seedlings, they did great, but you cannot let them dry out.

Rockwool is used for this kind of continuous irrigation, because it supposedly does not break down ( but it is too inert, there are spines and needles that bruise the plants, etc, etc...). In theory, anything can be used for continuous irrigation, as long as it is either stable, or the decomposition products are easy to flush. I saw in Malaysia beautiful lawrenceanum, dayanum, and bullenianum in chinese sphagnum moss, watered daily. However, if they dry out, the roots will die pretty quickly. Another thing, in case of pythium, phytophthora, or a couple other things, they can be devastating in no time in such a setup.


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## paphioboy (Sep 18, 2011)

Hourai Orchids in Malaysia used the irrigation technique (recirculated water) on paphs using perlite. For the past few years however they changed their medium to florist's foam. I noticed that roots in perlite were stronger than those in the florist foam..


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## quaker (Sep 18, 2011)

Sorry Roth it's neither of these two people. Many thanks for the information in your reply which I have made a note of.

quaker


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## quaker (Sep 21, 2011)

John M said:


> Very interesting! So, what does he use as potting medium?



Straight forward douglas fir bark with a small amount of perlite.

quaker


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## cnycharles (Sep 21, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> Hourai Orchids in Malaysia used the irrigation technique (recirculated water) on paphs using perlite. For the past few years however they changed their medium to florist's foam. I noticed that roots in perlite were stronger than those in the florist foam..



I would guess that the roots in perlite had access to more air, and floral foam might actually be too 'wet' at the root contact (not enough air)


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## gonewild (Sep 21, 2011)

quaker said:


> Straight forward douglas fir bark with a small amount of perlite.
> 
> quaker



Would be better to increase the perlite and decrease the bark because under the continual irrigation the bark is going to decompose quickly.


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## quaker (Sep 21, 2011)

gonewild said:


> Would be better to increase the perlite and decrease the bark because under the continual irrigation the bark is going to decompose quickly.



I agree but I have seen his kolopokingii and the compost is almost black and looks fully decomposed. The plant is huge and the florescences fantastic. So it looks like there are many ways to'skin a cat' that we don't know of and are closely held secrets.


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## NYEric (Sep 21, 2011)

I grow in hydro and agree media breakdown is a big issue. .


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## gonewild (Sep 21, 2011)

quaker said:


> I agree but I have seen his kolopokingii and the compost is almost black and looks fully decomposed. The plant is huge and the florescences fantastic. So it looks like there are many ways to'skin a cat' that we don't know of and are closely held secrets.



Growing in wet mush is the same as growing hydroponically in water. The roots become different than when growing in a normal standard moist media.

The plants will attempt to adapt to the degrading media as the media breaks down and if the transition is successful the plant will grow great. But if you change for some reason in the future the plant may collapse and not adapt well in reverse. This could be for example when you do decide to repot into fresh media. Or divide the plant and want to move part to another media or even to take the plant to a show for a few days.

Nothing wrong with trying the "new" idea just try to think ahead so known problems don't surprise you.


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## keithrs (Sep 21, 2011)

The hydro store down the street has a few Cym. on a recirculating system that use there koi pond. Can't remember what they use for media.


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## Candace (Sep 22, 2011)

keithrs said:


> The hydro store down the street has a few Cym. on a recirculating system that use there koi pond. Can't remember what they use for media.



Any cyms. I'd put in recycling water would have to be, for sure, tested virus free!


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## Ray (Sep 23, 2011)

Not if it's the only one that sees that pond water!

Once again, I think it all comes down to air exposure. Flowing water entrains a lot of air and likewise, carries away waste products. If the medium is stable enough that a catastrophic, sudden change won't affect the roots like Lance described, probably any plant can be grown with continuously-flowing irrigation solution.

It really is amazing how adaptable plants' roots can be. I know from my tropical plant culture in semi-hydro that plants that are, in nature, very dry growing, thrive. I have a nearby customer growing her cacti and succulents in S/H culture, and that completely blows my mind!


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## Roth (Sep 23, 2011)

Ray said:


> I have a nearby customer growing her cacti and succulents in S/H culture, and that completely blows my mind!



I have ariocarpus and field collected Somali Pseudolithos and euphorbias in Orchiata so far here, for some years... They do really well :evil:



gonewild said:


> The plants will attempt to adapt to the degrading media as the media breaks down and if the transition is successful the plant will grow great. But if you change for some reason in the future the plant may collapse and not adapt well in reverse. This could be for example when you do decide to repot into fresh media. Or divide the plant and want to move part to another media or even to take the plant to a show for a few days.
> 
> Nothing wrong with trying the "new" idea just try to think ahead so known problems don't surprise you.



Absolutely right... Before, many growers would not repot their plants for some years, until the substrate was totally collapsed. The plants would grow really well, adding lime every couple of months. But when they repotted, it was a major shock/loss. Pretty much like when the Victorian time growers were repotting from rotten osmunda and sphagnum mixes, sometimes the plants would shrink down in size, and take some years to recover.

Paphiopedilum henryanum and tranlienianum can have a huge, extensive root system and rhizomes in the wild, growing in something one could describe as a strange mud. The new roots would emerge however in fresh moss, leaf pieces, in close contact with limestone. But the older roots adapt progressively to this sticky mud. When you get such plants from the wild, if you do not cut all that old part and force the roots to restart, many of the plants die of bacterial rot within days. The old roots look fine, but in fact when you repot they start to rot and die immediately ( the same for wild cypripediums...).


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## Justin (Sep 23, 2011)

Candace said:


> Any cyms. I'd put in recycling water would have to be, for sure, tested virus free!



I would be too afraid of virus or other disease to grow orchids in recirculating system. That being said, i had a small sample of my paphs (and even a phal) tested for virus this summer and they all came out clean (for those viruses detectable by the test).


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## Candace (Sep 27, 2011)

Justin said:


> I would be too afraid of virus or other disease to grow orchids in recirculating system. That being said, i had a small sample of my paphs (and even a phal) tested for virus this summer and they all came out clean (for those viruses detectable by the test).



I wouldn't be too concerned about paphs or phrags (although it can happen). But, cyms for sure. I plan on doing an ebb and flow set up, but many of my phrags have come out of flask so I know the odds of virus are very low.


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## NYEric (Sep 27, 2011)

Whatcha got!? oke:


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