# schlimii and mazurii side by side



## Hugorchids (Nov 16, 2015)

I saw some discussions around these two Phrags and since both of mines are blooming I thought I share some pics. The mazurii came from Chucks and that overgrown schlimii from OZ. 





The flowers look alike but the mazurii plant is a miniature compared to the schlimii by a wide margin.

Here's close up of the mazurii:




and schlimii:


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## JeanLux (Nov 16, 2015)

Wow, that schlimii is a beautiful monster !!!!

And yes, the flowers of both are quite similar!!

Jean


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## Hamlet (Nov 16, 2015)

I have to agree. What a beautiful monster of a plant! Wow.


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## SlipperKing (Nov 16, 2015)

Based on these two, I wouldn't be able to tell one from the other except for plant size. That may not be a consent either.


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## Achamore (Nov 16, 2015)

SlipperKing said:


> Based on these two, I wouldn't be able to tell one from the other except for plant size. That may not be a consent either.



I agree. Very good to see these photos, it certainly gives fodder for the discussion. Great schlimii..!


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## John M (Nov 16, 2015)

They're both wonderful. Of course, the schlimii is impressive not only for it's size and vigour; but, the flower is really nice too. However, even though I tend to be an avid "splitter", I just don't see the justification for separating manzurii from schlimii. I can't help but to ask things like why is Paph. concolor v. longipetalum considered to just be a variety of concolor; but, manzurii is considered to be a separate species and not simply a variety of schlimii?


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## trdyl (Nov 16, 2015)

Thanks for posting!


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## eggshells (Nov 16, 2015)

Incredible clone of schlimii.



John M said:


> They're both wonderful. Of course, the schlimii is impressive not only for it's size and vigour; but, the flower is really nice too. However, even though I tend to be an avid "splitter", I just don't see the justification for separating manzurii from schlimii. I can't help but to ask things like why is Paph. concolor v. longipetalum considered to just be a variety of concolor; but, manzurii is considered to be a separate species and not simply a variety of schlimii?



John, concolor var. longipetalum is considered as a species now. It's name is changed to Paph. josianae.


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## eteson (Nov 16, 2015)

If you cannot distinguish it from a schlimii it is schlimii, maybe a expensive one! No matter what label says because a label does not make a plant to be what it is written on it. IMHO it could be XColombianum.


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## John M (Nov 16, 2015)

eggshells said:


> Incredible clone of schlimii.
> 
> 
> 
> John, concolor var. longipetalum is considered as a species now. It's name is changed to Paph. josianae.



Right. I'd forgotten that. Bad example. So, let's say micranthum. There are a lot of different varieties of micranthum. Many look more different from each other than schlimii and what we're seeing posted as manzurii. I think Eliseo is right. There is a lot of contamination and it's still rare if not impossible to find a pure manzurii. I seem to remember the very first photos we saw of manzurii were of very yellow flowers. Where'd they go?


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## troy (Nov 16, 2015)

Both are excellent blooms!!! Congrats on the blooming!!! Do you grow those outside or greenhouse?


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## dodidoki (Nov 17, 2015)

I agree, shchlimmi is outstanding, but I feel doubt about "manzurii".
Original description: "Sepals yellow-green, 2 cm long, 1.4 to 1.7 cm wide. Petals white, flushed with pale violet, 2.2 to 2.8 cm long, 1.1 to 2 cm wide. Labellum white flushed pale violet, yellow-green at base, with violet markings. 1.8 to 2.4 cm long, 1 to 1.7 cm wide"
You can see pics here:
http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/orchid/org/shinshu/Phrag/ennew13.html
It is a different flower, I think.


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## dodidoki (Nov 17, 2015)

BTW, if you read this article, you can notice, that manzurii is not a compact plant at all, leaves about 30-35 cm long.


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## eteson (Nov 17, 2015)

I cannot understand how a description based only in color was admitted to name a new species... 
Didoki you are right manzurii is not a compact plant, but schlimii is also very variable in size, so plant size cannot be used to separate it. (the same as in longifolium).

I do not have a very educated point of view and i am not a taxonomist but... could the true manzurii be the lost schlimii var albiflorum?

http://plantillustrations.org/illustration.php?id_illustration=113453


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## Linus_Cello (Nov 17, 2015)

Could these plants be representative of a clinal variation? (e.g., one is from lower altitude, other from higher?)

Have these schlimii and manzurii been crossed? What's the name? What does it look like?


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## eteson (Nov 17, 2015)

Linus_Cello said:


> Could these plants be representative of a clinal variation? (e.g., one is from lower altitude, other from higher?)
> 
> Have these schlimii and manzurii been crossed? What's the name? What does it look like?



Both are from about the same altitude (about 1600-1800 masl) typical schlimii comes from Central Cordillera in Colombia while the variation comes from Eastern Cordillera.

the man made cross is called Colombianum and it is a very vigorous schlimii you would find it in one of my old posts.

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36672


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## Hien (Nov 17, 2015)

dodidoki said:


> I agree, shchlimmi is outstanding, but I feel doubt about "manzurii".
> Original description: "Sepals yellow-green, 2 cm long, 1.4 to 1.7 cm wide. Petals white, flushed with pale violet, 2.2 to 2.8 cm long, 1.1 to 2 cm wide. Labellum white flushed pale violet, yellow-green at base, with violet markings. 1.8 to 2.4 cm long, 1 to 1.7 cm wide"
> You can see pics here:
> http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/orchid/org/shinshu/Phrag/ennew13.html
> It is a different flower, I think.


 That article seems to narrow to the green type only as manzurii , but does manzurii has to be semi albo viridis (is that the term)? perhaps the one in the photo is neither schlimii mini nor manzurii but a different species


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## Hien (Nov 17, 2015)

dodidoki said:


> BTW, if you read this article, you can notice, that manzurii is not a compact plant at all, leaves about 30-35 cm long.


perhaps the one in the photo is neither schlimii mini nor manzurii but a different species


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## SlipperKing (Nov 17, 2015)

dodidoki said:


> I agree, shchlimmi is outstanding, but I feel doubt about "manzurii".
> Original description: "Sepals yellow-green, 2 cm long, 1.4 to 1.7 cm wide. Petals white, flushed with pale violet, 2.2 to 2.8 cm long, 1.1 to 2 cm wide. Labellum white flushed pale violet, yellow-green at base, with violet markings. 1.8 to 2.4 cm long, 1 to 1.7 cm wide"
> You can see pics here:
> http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/orchid/org/shinshu/Phrag/ennew13.html
> It is a different flower, I think.



Clearly in this descriptive article there are two, maybe three different flowers and they are all compatible with each other. Unless these were from a highly isolated colony and manzurii has a wider color range, one should be looking for a green flower. The manzurii staminode looks nothing like a schlimii staminode either, unless again, these are isolated flowers intentionally inserted into this article to mislead the reader.

Clearly one cannot buy this species with any confidence without a blooming plant in hand!


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## Happypaphy7 (Nov 17, 2015)

Can't tell the difference between the flowers really.
But the plant size, is it always the case??
One is much bigger than the other species??


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## Hugorchids (Nov 18, 2015)

Both plants are grown in a greenhouse, side by side. If I recall, the blooms are more yellow/cream when they first open and fade over time. This is a second bloom, the other flower was very similar to this one. They both bloomed in a compot so I'm sure they're grow a little bigger when they are divided.


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## SlipperFan (Nov 18, 2015)

John M said:


> They're both wonderful. Of course, the schlimii is impressive not only for it's size and vigour; but, the flower is really nice too. However, even though I tend to be an avid "splitter", I just don't see the justification for separating manzurii from schlimii. I can't help but to ask things like why is Paph. concolor v. longipetalum considered to just be a variety of concolor; but, manzurii is considered to be a separate species and not simply a variety of schlimii?



Not anymore. Now it is Paph. josianae: http://richardiana.com/pdfRich/Richardiana-vol14-20-Paphiopedilum.pdf


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