# Problem with Phal



## grasshopper (Jan 3, 2010)

Hi All,
I know this is a slipper forum, but has anyone seen this , I cant fiqure what it is, thought it was fungus or bugs but that dont seem to be it, disease?? I have it isolated from my others until I can identify the problem. It starts out as pale spots on healthy leaves then gets the brown spots. Seems to be slow to develope I have two plants that are from the same "mother plant" and they both have this, one is done flowering and developing a keikei and the other is in flower yet.


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## SlipperFan (Jan 3, 2010)

Maybe a virus? You might send a sample to Critter Creek for analysis.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jan 3, 2010)

What is the history of the plant...where is it from? I have found that many of the inexpensive Taiwanese phals look gorgeous while in bloom, then decline and die later...leaves turn all sorts of colors, drop off, next thing you know the whole plant is dead. Can stay in bloom for weeks, but the decline can be very fast. Hopefully, that is not the case with your phal. Take care, Eric


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## luvsorchids (Jan 3, 2010)

Might be fungal-Phyllostic Leaf Spot (Phyllostictina capitalensis).

Susan


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## grasshopper (Jan 4, 2010)

I bought this off a well known source off Ebay thats in Florida, I was told its a old cross "Buddhas Treasure" Ive never had anything like this on my other phals, I did give them a shot of pysan and will repeat in a week or so, it just seems kind of funky to me. Im assuming the keikei will be infected as well since its feeding off the mother yet


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## Hera (Jan 4, 2010)

How do the roots look? Sometimes the leaves look that way when the roots are starting to rot. This I know from experience.


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## Leo Schordje (Jan 4, 2010)

You have done most of what I would do, except step 3. My eyes are not young enough, so I tend to treat based on probability and symptoms, rather than seeing the critters. 
1. treat for insects, especially spider mites, false or true, they are hard to see and more common than most people realize. 
2. Fungal disease - best controlled by modifying the environment. More air movement being key. Water in morning to be sure plants are dry before evening. Treat with broad spectrum fungicide

3. There are a couple disease organisms that are neither fungal nor true bacterial. I believe it is some sort of ameboid critter, that lives in the vascular tissues. Your leaves look a lot like the case of seen of this disease. These tend to respond to Copper containing compounds. Phyton 27 is essentially a Copper Sulfate, follow directions, use at the strength they recomend. It is a little pricey, much more expensive than Physan, but cheaper than the more advanced fungicides. Your leaves look a lot like this affliction.

4. If it is only one or two plants, and especially if there are color blotches in leaves or weird blotches in flowers: Assume virus, throw the plants out. There is no cleaning up a virus. Sterilize pots before re-using them. 

your problem does not appear to be #5 but I'll toss this in for the other Phal growers.

5. I helped diagnose a problem recently for a windowsill collection, where the Phals would never go much beyond 2 or 3 leaves, even though they were 10 or more years old. Blooming was sparse. Old leaves would develop a similar sickly look then drop off. They seemed weak and susceptable to rots and problems. - Key is that all the Phals were affected to some degree in this collection, not just one plant. Turns out the person was under fertilizing. After checking and doing 1 thru 4, we tried this: The bleaching was malnutrition. They switched to 1/2 teaspoon of MSU fertilizer per gallon of water every two weeks and the collection perked right up. Leaves became green, more turgid and new leaves have develped without old leaves falling off. There is now a flush of flowers coming for the spring Phal season that the owner has never seen before. Especially on a windowsill collection where fertilizing is not convenient, it is possible to starve your plants. The first few years the collection won't show much effect, but eventually the malnutrition will manifest itself, and will be hard to diagnose.

Hope one of these ideas help.


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## SlipperFan (Jan 4, 2010)

Thanks, Leo. That is helpful.


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## grasshopper (Jan 5, 2010)

Thanks everyone,

Here is more info....I removed one from its pot today and it was a bit dry, I wasnt expecting that, I was expecting to find that maybe it was too wet, although I have several other phals in the same mix and style pot with no trouble, unless these guys want more water and if they do they didnt show signs of it. The roots were typical of my other phals, although there was not an overabundance of them, both plants are starting new roots , the one is in bloom and the flowers shown no abnormalities, just the leaves. One other thing that I find strange, maybe its normal, the spike with the flowers is growing a root out of it, and the other spike is growing a keikei, personally Ive never seen a root out of the flower stalk before, is that normal? Usually I have to break out the paste to get a keikei. I did give a pysan treatment, but I think Im going to try the pyton 27 as well, Im curious though , maybe im missing something simple like it wanting more water/ drying out too much inbetween, or fertilizer although I do regulary feed at 1/4 teaspoon per gallon, then every third/fourt watering I flush, same as my other phals. Im hoping its not a funky disease and have to trash them. This maybe a dumb question but are my phrags suseptible to this funkiness?


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## NYEric (Jan 5, 2010)

anything is suseptible to anything. SOme plants come w/ diseases, some get issues due to cultural problems. Do what you can to prevent getting problems, work on keeping things healthy and if a plant gets beyond help, chuck it!


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## Shiva (Jan 5, 2010)

*Leo's #4 solution northern style*

I had four large phals that developped small faint yellow blotches on the leaves. I tried everything, found no bugs with a 15x lens. New leaves would develop normally, then the tiny yellow blotches would appear again and gradually turn sunken brown. I was worried that whatever it was would eventually move on to my other phals, so I got fed up with those four and went for Leo's #4 solution, northern version.








Now, all the others have been warned! :evil:


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## NYEric (Jan 5, 2010)

YIKES!


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## grasshopper (Jan 6, 2010)

Yeah I hear ya, I emailed the people who sold them to me to see if they would offer any input / support, After browsing through the forum here and other places I have seen several other posts with problems from the same vendor. Not exactly what I have but similar.....A fellow at work offered to take them if I trash them, he has nothing to loose since his wife has cacti , it would be interesting to see what would happen.


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## cnycharles (Jan 6, 2010)

well, I can't really offer diagnosis without being there and really seeing conditions and results. I do know that there have been foreign vendors in places that grow plants that have nasty bugs (diseases), and they treat them with chemicals which are supposed to remove these nasties, but at best they only seem to suppress them. the plants look good but once they are shipped and aren't being treated with these chemicals they revert to 'diseased' look and condition. I think from what I remember hearing, the vendors have very bad cultural conditions and don't know or care enough to fix them, and just use the pesticide to suppress the symptoms. I know there are many places in the east that don't know how or why diseases start or spread, and they either don't know or can't afford to change the conditions so disease spreads like wildfire from old to new plants. I can't say that this is happening here, but when the plants really look very funky it's either chemical exposure or the signs of a truly nasty disease. (or someone left the plant cart out in the cold and they are now showing damage) I know this is over-simplification, just a different observation


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## Yoyo_Jo (Jan 6, 2010)

I tossed my last two phals yesterday - Shiva, your picture reminds me of what I was doing - tossing them into a freezing cold garbage pail.

Every phal I've owned has eventually succumbed to "something" that starts out with soft brown spots or patches that spread and eventually result in necrosis. Whatever it is, it doesn't affect any of my other orchids.

This is a picture of one of the first phals I owned in the early stages of the disease - it went to heaven long ago. 





This is a link to a newsletter from the International Commerical Orchid Growers Organization. In it is an article entitled "Economically Important Orchid Viruses...". Figure 5 of that article shows a phalaenopsis infected with 
Cymbidium mosaic virus (CymMV) and Odontoglossum ringspot virus (ORSV). The orchid in the photo looks exactly like one of the orchids I tossed yesterday.

http://www.icogo.org/images/ICOGO_Vol_2_No_1_2008_WEB.pdf


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## Shiva (Jan 6, 2010)

Very much like my four phals. The thing is, why bother and spend months trying to save these sickly things? I had one stuartiana that actually took years to die. In the end, I bought a new one which is now in spike. I found that once an orchid takes a bad turn, it becomes very hard to save it.


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## Ernie (Jan 6, 2010)

Underfertlizing and underwatering will cause back-leaf drop in phals. 

Good advice Leo and NYEric. 

-Ernie


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## etex (Jan 7, 2010)

It sure is best to buy from our vendors who grow the plants, care for them and does everything possible so the customer starts with a healthy plant!This post does not make me want to buy from overseas!
Shiva-Your other phals should take heed with the warning you gave!!


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## grasshopper (Jan 9, 2010)

Yes indeed, I did email the people who I bought the plants from and they have been very helpfull so far, asking about my conditions and how Im trying to elliminate other possibilities, ultimately I wont truly know unless I get it tested but it looks weird to me. Ill have to let everyone know how it turns out. Meanwhile Ill keep my fingers crossed!


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## grasshopper (Jan 9, 2010)

Well everyone, it looks like the vendor that I bought these from went from being helpful to outright blaming me for the problem, It appears that once we discused everything, temps , watering, fertilizer, the problem was blamed on my sustrate, and its my fault they look that way. I have 12 other phals in the same mix and all are either growing or in spike at the moment, Im rather dissapointed , There are so many other vendors that are wonderfull to work with, form now on Ill pay the extra to deal with those who have a good reputation....lesson learned! Maybe all give the sicklies the Leo's # 4 treatment northern style. Thanks everyone for the input


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