# What category should this plant be entered in for ribbon judging?



## Orchidzrule (Mar 21, 2010)

The Manitoba Orchid Society show will be held this upcoming weekend (March 26 through 28) and a friend intends to enter this plant, but she is a bit puzzled as to category and I was wondering if any of you had any thoughts on the subject. 

It is Shirley Amundson, a primary hybrid (hookerae X acmodontum), and our show has the following choices for primary hybrid paphs:
32 white
33 green/yellow
34 bronze/mahogany
35 red/pink
36 other colors/vinicolors

Obviously, it's not white. I also tend to rule out green, in spite of a goodly bit of green at the base of the laterals. The pouch could be called bronze/mahogany. Obviously, it could be called pink, since the laterals are quite bright pink. If those were the only choices that's (35) what I'd tell her to enter as. It's the "other" colors that I'm wondering about. Clearly, it isn't vini, but I'm wondering if "other" colors is something used for a flower not neatly fitting into any one category.


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## luvsorchids (Mar 21, 2010)

I would go with the red/pink because to me that's the general impression of color that it gives, at least to me. I think the "other" designation is a catch-all in case something really unusual shows up, and also includes the dark vinis, which really don't fit the other categories.

Susan


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## SlipperKing (Mar 21, 2010)

#36, Other Colors
*True*"other" colors is something used for a flower not neatly fitting into any one category.


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## Ernie (Mar 21, 2010)

Rob,

Got your e. Was out of town (thanks for the fun weekend Omaha-ans!). Depends which side fo the bed you wake up on. IMO it's super silly to break Paphs up by color, but that's what we have to work with. You could easily cover Paph color by simple saying "fall mulch" or "spring mulch" tones.  This is not an "other color" flower- other colors are usually like peach, "blue", sunset tones, (most shows have "vini" as a color choice for Paphs?)... It's either green/yellow or red/pink IMO. I'd personally leave out bronze/mahogany IMO. ALSO, read your show schedule- some say "predominant color" or "background color" or some qualification for how to pick a color class. Your SAFEST bet when you're not sure is to enter it in the earliest class possible. But if you just stick it in the very first paph class (probably unifloral species if you're using the Mid-America schedule), you'll just tick someone off with lack of effort. Why the earliest r_easonable_ possibility? If you stick it in red/pink and the team decides it is actually green, they could bump it up, BUT they probably already judged that class, so you get a nice DQ (not a nice Dairy Queen ice cream cone either). It's way easier to bump stuff _down to unjudged classes_. At your show, one team will probably have all the Paphs, so don't sweat it. At bigger shows, the slippers are sometimes split up amongst teams, so you might not get a fair shake if you mis-enter. 

Also, slippers only have one "lateral" sepal- the synsepal. Your "laterals" are petals. 

Hope this helps. 

See you in a couple days!!! It better not be -40 C/F this year, and I better not get molested by imigration/customs at the border AGAIN!  Unless you get some hotter, um.. Mounties (nudge, nudge).  

-Ernie


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## NYEric (Mar 22, 2010)

I'd call it other but there is a point to get it viewed earlier before judges get bored! :snore:


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## smartie2000 (Mar 22, 2010)

I don't like this...why is it done by colour?! Parvi primaries (Chinese paphs they call them at my OS) should be judges against each other, multifloral against multifloral, etc. 
But then you have the interesctionals, I guess you choose the most dominating parent.


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## NYEric (Mar 22, 2010)

At large shows they are split up that way.


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## smartie2000 (Mar 22, 2010)

their show in Winnipeg would be equal size or smaller than my society's show. But I could be wrong, people in Ontario may travel over.

This is what we have:
606 Paphiopedilum hybrids – one or both parents oriental type
607 Paphiopedilum hybrids – vinicoloured and coloratum Maudiae type
608 Paphiopedilum hybrids – green or white Maudiae type
609 Paphiopedilum hybrids – primary hybrid, but not a multi-floral and not oriental
610 Paphiopedilum hybrids – multi-floral 
611 Paphiopedilum hybrids – all others (generally refers to complex hybrids, also referred to as standard or bulldog type)

Then we don't judge a Paph Harold Koopowitz against a Paph Maudiae (albino) , or Paph Leeanum. I notice we lack a brachypetalum class though, but perhaps we lumped it with the oriental type.

If he enters it in as a pink it will be certainly judged with delenatii and vietnamense hybrids.

some judges don't have the patience for ribbon judging to recategorize unless the bloom is truely spectaular


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## Drorchid (Mar 22, 2010)

I always have a hard time myself with categorizing paph's in different color groups, especially like in this case when you have more than one color. I like the way Winnipeg does it better; Personally I think they should change all the catogories by "Type" of orchid; :

Paph. hybrid: Primary cross
Paph hybrid: Complex Maudiae type 
Paph hybrid: Complex Parvi type hybrid
Paph. hybrid: Complex Brachy type hybrid
Paph hybrid: Complex Multifloral with two or more flowers per spike
Paph hybrid: Complex Sequential flowering hybrid
Paph hybrid: Complex Bulldog type 
Paph hybrid: Other Complex hybrid (Intersectional hybrid that does not fit any of the catogories above)

Robert


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## SlipperFan (Mar 22, 2010)

I'm with you, Robert. I always have a hard time trying to figure out color based on the Mid-America schedule. Color is just not a good categorizing subject anymore, if it ever was!


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## Orchidzrule (Mar 22, 2010)

Thanks for all your comments--helpful, as well as fun to read! I agree the system we are using at our show is flawed. This is the last year it will be used and my understanding is we will probably use the same system as Edmonton next year. We would have adopted the new one this year, but unfortunately the show books got printed prematurely and we didn't want to waste the money spent.

I'm OK with how the system we use treats species--they're broken down into normally one or two flowers when mature; normally 3 or more when mature (i.e. multiflorals); and sequentially blooming (essentially the cochlopetalums like primulinum). No mention of color at all. I'd prefer to see the first one further divided into a few sub-categories, but it's a workable system. 

It's only with the hybrids where color comes into play. As things stand rothschildianum & philippinense are in a totally separate class from callosum & lawrencianum; yet a St. Swithin would be in the same class (33 Green/Yellow primary hybrid) as an alba Maudiae!

My only problem with Edmonton's classification, as outlined by Fren is the "Oriental" designation. All paphs are Oriental! If they mean parvi and/or brachy, then say so.

I'm with Dot & Robert. Those categories make much more sense.

Ernie, you exaggerate a tad. It wasn't -40 last year! It probably was about -2 or 3, though, and it looks as though we can expect about the same, if the forecast is to be believed. And, as far as your experience with our customs people goes, I say you got a great story out of the whole experience. Do bring your camera, though, and (unlike your experience in Omaha) we can get a fairly good Slippertalk group photo--with Kevin, Kyle & me, that's four of us, including yourself!

Fren, our show is almost certainly smaller than yours. We really don't get anyone coming in from elsewhere. We're too far away from all other societies. The judges will usually move a plant into a yet-to-be judged category at our show, but if the right category has already been judged, the plant's owner is normally SOOL.

Again, thanks for all the comments. I'm going to tell Darlene to put her plant in Yellow/Green, since it's the first category, especially as Ernie may be judging the paphs & phrags!


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## Kevin (Mar 22, 2010)

I'd go with green/yellow, since green seems to be the most dominant. Like has already been said, it can be bumped down, if the judges think it doesn't fit.


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## smartie2000 (Mar 22, 2010)

I disagree calling them "oriental" as well! But earlier in the schedule they indicate them as parvisepalum. Some growers don't understand what parvi means, which is why I assume they wrote it this way in Edmonton this year...

We need a category for cochlopetalum paphs, as well as brachypetalum paphs. This year we had to judge a Avalon Mist (they thought a good one) against complex paphs. I did not like that. Also a complex brachy hybrid was put into complex, I think.


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## Kevin (Mar 22, 2010)

Orchidzrule said:


> Again, thanks for all the comments. I'm going to tell Darlene to put her plant in Yellow/Green, since it's the first category, especially as Ernie may be judging the paphs & phrags!



You could also tell Darlene to join Slippertalk herself! oke:


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## Ernie (Mar 23, 2010)

Position yourselves carefully on the gym-class-like judging team selection line so you're on the slipper team!  Or maybe bribe someone to swap teams.  But only if you like not-so-warm chicken for dinner.  

See you Manitobans soon. 

-Ernie


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## Kevin (Mar 24, 2010)

Ernie said:


> It better not be -40 C/F this year,
> -Ernie



It should be nice for the show this year. Tomorrow will be cold, but it's supposed to be above zero by Friday. Low tonight: -20C with a windchill of -27C!! Not very good for bringing plants to the show!


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## Orchidzrule (Mar 29, 2010)

*An update*

Well, I passed on Ernie's message to Darlene and she duly followed his advice and entered Shirley A. in Yellow/Green primary hybrids. Ernie also suggested I strategically place myself in line so as to be on the slipper judging team, or do some bribing, but I got on it without having to resort to any tricks. However, instead of Ernie as our team's judge, Head Judge Terry Kennedy assigned slippers to Mario Ferrusi. I was sorry to miss Ernie, but I've been on a team with Mario before and I enjoyed it then, and also enjoyed it this time. He made many astute comments and I think I learned quite a bit. (How much I retain is another question, but that's getting off topic...)

Alas, Mario isn't a slipper freak. His reaction to my saying that our show rules state we ignore dorsal color when classifying color was "You ignore the dorsal???? It's the most conspicuous part of most Paphs!" When we got to Shirley, he asked "What is this doing in Green/Yellow?" It was so hard to resist saying "Because Ernie said to put it in here!" In the end, I explained I was partially responsible for its placement, but that we'd had it suggested by another judge for the reasons Ernie has mentioned in this thread. I didn't mention Ernie by name, but Mario may have figured it out. Anyhow, Shirley took the second place ribbon in "her" class. Mario initially thought the flower was a bit small, but then when he looked at the fact it was a first bloom on a seedling, he allowed for that.


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## Shadow (Mar 30, 2010)

Congratulations! :clap: So, what was "her" class in the end? Bronze or pink?


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## Orchidzrule (Mar 30, 2010)

Shadow said:


> Congratulations! :clap: So, what was "her" class in the end? Bronze or pink?



Actually neither. In the end, Mario grudgingly let it stay in its entered class. This was a miracle in itself because we moved so many that were incorrectly entered. He did say "Your members seem to be in need of some instruction on placement of entries." While I didn't totally disagree, I had to point out the last two such moved plants had been entered by vendors! :rollhappy: Gotta say I had fun!


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## goldenrose (Mar 30, 2010)

Orchidzrule said:


> Actually neither. In the end, Mario grudgingly let it stay in its entered class. This was a miracle in itself because we moved so many that were incorrectly entered. He did say "Your members seem to be in need of some instruction on placement of entries." While I didn't totally disagree, I had to point out the last two such moved plants had been entered by vendors! :rollhappy: Gotta say I had fun!


The last show I clerked we had the same problem. We were doing part of the paphs so one we ended up moving, another was left alone & the other it was just too late, couldn't go back. It's funny how some interpret the rules - one might think that when the rules say dominate color, whatever color there's the most of, typically the dorsal, it should be. When a color dominates your eye, does that make a difference & makes it the dominate color?


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## Ernie (Mar 30, 2010)

Yeah. Crazy all around. Like has been said, color is a stinker of a way to separate slippers for ribbon judging. 

Remember, the reason I said to put it in green/yellow was not necessrily because it was the _right_ class, but because it is the _earliest possible_ decent choice. It's very possible if the show repeated itself this weekend with the same pool of judges, it'd end up somewhere else after some rearranging. Oh well. I'm not losing any sleep over it. 

BTW, I made it through customs (both ways) without issue this year. Was sort of dissappointing after last year's adventure. 

-Ernie


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