# My Polyanthas in 2022



## GuRu (May 25, 2022)

First one of my Polyanthas in flower is Paph. supardii.....it's the little brother of Paph. rothschildianum in my eyes. I bought it as a very young plant from Hilmar in an eBay auction some years ago. This is the first flowering and I'm pretty pleased with 3 pretty flowers.
Paph. supardii











and for Brucher and Jens the whole plant



To be continued because the next one is just about to unfold its petals.........


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## Paphman910 (May 25, 2022)

Nice flowers!


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## DrLeslieEe (May 25, 2022)

Hmmm… it looks at first glance a supardii with the correct staminode… but the straight red and long petals are not consistent with the species. Might be bred back to supardii from roths?


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## Martin (May 25, 2022)

Congrats for flowering it! But for me also no straight supardii. Great photo quality btw!


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## GuRu (May 25, 2022)

DrLeslieEe said:


> Hmmm… it looks at first glance a supardii with the correct staminode… but the straight red and long petals are not consistent with the species. Might be bred back to supardii from roths?


Leslie and Martin, to be honest....I expected this demur because I have photos of another Paph. supardii which I flowered in 2008 (by now unfortunately the plant doesn't live anymore) and the petals of this plant were shorter and more twisted.....a bit untidy. I dont know if these petals are within the normal variation of the species or if there was any breeding with other species ?


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## DrLeslieEe (May 25, 2022)

GuRu said:


> Leslie and Martin, to be honest....I expected this demur because I have photos of another Paph. supardii which I flowered in 2008 (by now unfortunately the plant doesn't live anymore) and the petals of this plant were shorter and more twisted.....a bit untidy. I dont know if these petals are within the normal variation of the species or if there was any breeding with other species ?


Unfortunately I conferred with some growers like Eggshells and we all agree that it is not within the range of supardii. Perhaps confirm with Hilmar and see other sib blooms?


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## GuRu (May 26, 2022)

DrLeslieEe said:


> Hmmm… ....Might be bred back to supardii from roths?


The primary hybrid Paph. rothschildianum x Paph. supardii is Paph. David Ott which resembles my flowers a lot.



DrLeslieEe said:


> ..................Perhaps confirm with Hilmar and see other sib blooms?


I sent Hilmar an email and we will see what he will say.


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## fibre (May 26, 2022)

What ever it is, it is very well photographed!


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## Ozpaph (May 26, 2022)

before reading any other posts - "its a hybrid", was my first thought.


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## BrucherT (May 26, 2022)

GuRu said:


> First one of my Polyanthas in flower is Paph. supardii.....it's the little brother of Paph. rothschildianum in my eyes. I bought it as a very young plant from Hilmar in an eBay auction some years ago. This is the first flowering and I'm pretty pleased with 3 pretty flowers.
> Paph. supardii
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you! Beautiful.


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## GuRu (May 27, 2022)

Few moments ago I recieved the response of Hilmar. He wrote that he looked up his old breeding book and fund out he made two crosses with Paph. supardii in 2006.....Paph. supardii x self and Paph. gigantifolium x Paph. supardii. He wrote furthermore that my plant would not be Paph. David Ott = Paph. rothschildianum x Pah. supardii which he not had for sale during that time.
Paph. gigantifolium x Paph. supardii was registered as Paph. Memoria Heinz Rengers by Hilmar Bauch in 2014......but unfortunately I can't find more than 2 or 3 photos Paph. Memoria Heinz Rengers in the net. In my eyes the flowers of my plant resemble more Paph. David Ott.....but Hilmar says this is impossible if the origin of the plant was his nursery......and it definitely was.


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## DrLeslieEe (May 27, 2022)

Such interesting provenance!

I guess we have to accept the fact that gigantifolium is a parent!


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## Martin (May 27, 2022)

...or that his supardii wasnt a true one.


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## DrLeslieEe (May 27, 2022)

Martin said:


> ...or that his supardii wasnt a true one.


Hmmm maybe Hilmar can produce a picture of this supardii parent?


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## Tony (May 27, 2022)

I don't see any gigantifolium in it. I could believe the supardii parent was a mislabeled David Ott and this is the result of a selfing.


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## GuRu (May 27, 2022)

DrLeslieEe said:


> Hmmm maybe Hilmar can produce a picture of this supardii parent?


I will ask him if he has a photo.


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## GuRu (May 27, 2022)

Martin said:


> ...or that his supardii wasnt a true one.


Maybe, if he has a photo we will see if it was a true one.


Tony said:


> I don't see any gigantifolium in it....


Tony, so do I. My flower resembles more Paph. David Ott than Paph. Memoria Heinz Rengers, at least by photos which are available in the net.


Tony said:


> I could believe the supardii parent was a mislabeled David Ott and this is the result of a selfing.


That's another posibility.


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## Guldal (May 27, 2022)

DrLeslieEe said:


> Hmmm… it looks at first glance a supardii with the correct staminode… but the straight red and long petals are not consistent with the species.


It's a nice plant and flowers, but this was exactly my thought - the petals don't provide us with the clownish anarchy so characteristic of supardii (that I love and Ozpah, due to his coulrophobia, detests). From the pictures you provide with the link, Rudolf, that trait seems to be preserved in P. Mem. Heinz Regners.


DrLeslieEe said:


> I guess we have to accept the fact that gigantifolium is a parent!


That's a rather debatable proposition. The characteristic colouring of the ovary of gigantifolium (white) carries over to its hybrids - at least to some extent, I think. Again I refer to Rudolf's photo link for Mem. Heinz Regners, where such influence is pretty clear.
May we have a closeup from the side of the your plant, displaying the ovary, Rudolf?
I already tend to endorse the mislabeling hypothesis, and if no influence from gigantifolium can be detected in respect to the ovary, I would consider this the clinching argument!


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## SlipperKing (May 27, 2022)

__





Paph David Ott, an old tymer


Almost lost this clone. My second larger plant has smaller flower developing. Go figure. roth X supardii




www.slippertalk.com





Here is a link to a David Ott I posted in 2014


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## GuRu (May 28, 2022)

SlipperKing said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Rick, thanks for the link. The more photos of David Ott I see, your photo included, the more I'm convinced my plant is a mislabeled David Ott.


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## SlipperKing (May 28, 2022)

Welcome to the hybrid world Rudolf!


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## KyushuCalanthe (May 28, 2022)

Lovely flowers, and lovely photos - very effective lighting.


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## GuRu (May 28, 2022)

SlipperKing said:


> Welcome to the hybrid world Rudolf!


Thanks, Rick. To be honest, I've grown already 4 Paph. and one Phrag hybrids so you see I'm not completely against them. As long as the hybrids look pretty and achieve an improvement of the look of the flower or the vigour of the plant.....they are o.k.. What I don't like are crosses between species which have been crossed without an concept.....just because they were in flower at the same moment and overbreeded species......like complex Paph. hybrids. But to be honest 3 of my Paph. hybrids were mislabeled plants and the Phrag. hybrid (my one and only Phrag) was a gift of a vendor at one of the Dresden Orchid Shows many years ago. I bought only my Paph. Lynleigh Koopowitz deliberately but by coincidence because it was cheap about 20 years ago when I started again to be in orchids after a spell without almost all orchids because of moving house and thereafter building a new house.


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## GuRu (May 28, 2022)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> Lovely flowers, and lovely photos - very effective lighting.



Tom, at this day I didn't need any lighting set.....it was all natural light.


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## David B (May 28, 2022)

GuRu said:


> I will ask him if he has a photo.


I like where this investigation is going. Breeders who have integrity are accountable for the heritage tree of their progeny. Alas hybrid determination is not exacting.


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## incharm (May 30, 2022)

From the color pattern of dorsal, petal and pouch, and the form of petal, think it has philippinense inside. Not supardii itself, or David Ott. But I cannot sure if it is supardii x philippinense straightly. Maybe other species inside too. Mislabeled is always a trouble thing!


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## Guldal (May 30, 2022)

David B said:


> I like where this investigation is going. Breeders who have integrity are accountable for the heritage tree of their progeny.


I'm all with you...in principle! 

Considering, though, how many plants that are passing through the hands of Hilmar Bauch of Asendorfer Orchideensucht (or in any other nursery of an equal size), the odd mishap is bound to happen once in a while. I think, that's unavoidable.
The other side of the coin: it shouldn't happen too often - and absolutely crucial is, how the nursery owner handles the problem, if confronted with it!

I got this as a freebie from Hilmar with a larger order some time back. P. wardii album as the tag heralds, it most likely ain't...but it actually have triggered my curiosity immensely, and I so much hope, that I will succeed in keeping it alive untill flowering, and the revelation of the mystique mystery dawns.



Though, in all truth, I have to admit, that I'm probably only able to preserve a certain detached stoicism in the matter, because it was an extra, and not some highly coveted cross, I had dreamt of acquiring for years!


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## GuRu (May 30, 2022)

Guldal said:


> ..............I got this as a freebie from Hilmar with a larger order some time back. P. wardii album as the tag heralds, it most likely ain't...


Jens, you are a lucky one.....your mislabeled Paph. wardii album ....... is in reality.....Paph. hangianum album !! What a haul !!


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## Guldal (May 30, 2022)

GuRu said:


> your mislabeled Paph. wardii album ....... is in reality.....Paph. hangianum album !! What a haul !!


That would indeed be a pleasant surprise!    Sounds, though, too good to be true!


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## DrLeslieEe (May 30, 2022)

GuRu said:


> Jens, you are a lucky one.....your mislabeled Paph. wardii album ....... is in reality.....Paph. hangianum album !! What a haul !!


I definitely agree this is not wardii album, which has mottled leaves. See pic below in front row. Back rows are javanicums. 

But a hangibum would be amazing!!! A possibility based on leave shape now.


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## Justin (May 30, 2022)

incharm said:


> From the color pattern of dorsal, petal and pouch, and the form of petal, think it has philippinense inside. Not supardii itself, or David Ott. But I cannot sure if it is supardii x philippinense straightly. Maybe other species inside too. Mislabeled is always a trouble thing!



I agree. I can see supardii crossed with philippinense here.


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## tnyr5 (May 30, 2022)

Just because the breeder is honest doesn't mean the flasker is.


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## Guldal (May 31, 2022)

tnyr5 said:


> Just because the breeder is honest doesn't mean the flasker is.


An apt comment!
The late Popow sr. received a whole batch of sukhakulii fma. album from his flasker - or maybe more correctly stated: fma. allegedly album, which none of the plants turned out to be. I can't imagine how tiresome a proces it must have for him been, as the complaints one by one started to come in.
The flasker might not have been dishonest, though. Maybe the whole hullaballoo could have been caused by a blank, drawn in the great lottery of genetics - or what we witnessed might have been the result of an all too human error ("Errare humanum est")!
Popow, by the way, handled the situation exemplarily and with grace: he let me keep the plant and made a full refund of the cost.


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## Guldal (May 31, 2022)

DrLeslieEe said:


> See pic below....


Oh, Leslie, if I didn't cherish my Slippertalk penpal so dearly, I would probably have a wee bit difficulties in surpressing the urge to: kill, kill, kill!


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## tnyr5 (May 31, 2022)

Oh, they can be very dishonest, much more so than that. It's the reason I now do my own flasking. Seed can't magically change species if it never leaves the house.


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## GuRu (May 31, 2022)

incharm said:


> From the color pattern of dorsal, petal and pouch, and the form of petal, think it has philippinense inside. Not supardii itself, or David Ott. But I cannot sure if it is supardii x philippinense straightly. Maybe other species inside too. Mislabeled is always a trouble thing!
> 
> 
> Justin said:
> ...



Maybe you both are on the right track.
This morning I received the response of Hilmar B. and he sent mi photos of his Paph. David Ott, and of his parentage plants. He also repeated that my plant wouldn't be a Paph. David Ott and he wrote that he forwarded my photos to O.Gruss and Olaf uttered my plant could be Paph. Super Saint which is a cross of Paph. supardii x Paph. Saint Swithin. This new constellation would explain the influence of Paph. philippinense and paph. rothschildianum.
With regard of Hilmars photos I'm waiting of his consent to show them here.


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## David B (May 31, 2022)

Ok, for Guldal, so absolutely no offence to Hilmar, I was not throwing shade, I have had no dealings with this person, but I was applauding the group consensus in their effort to solve this identity situation. Honest mistakes happen, but we should also applaud integrity.


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## Guldal (May 31, 2022)

GuRu said:


> Olaf uttered my plant could be Paph. Super Saint which is a cross of Paph. supardii x Paph. Saint Swithin. This new constellation would explain the influence of Paph. philippinense and paph. rothschildianum.


That proposition is the one so far, that IMHO makes most sense!


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## GuRu (Jun 6, 2022)

I think there shouldn't exist two different opinions about the idendity of my next Polyantha in flower, Paph. sanderianum. I bought the plant from A. Popow in 2014 and she flowered for the first time in 2016. Now she's flowering again with 4 flowers and I, as a windowill grower, am very pleased with it. The lenght of the petals is between 55 and 60 cm.
Paph. sanderianum :


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## Martin (Jun 6, 2022)

Well done! Sanderianum is Always impressive to me!


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## Guldal (Jun 6, 2022)

Well done, Rudolf! And here I can only support your statement concerning the certainty about the identity of your plant!


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