# Growing in water, Phrag types



## D-novice (Feb 28, 2018)

At my local orchid society yesterday, I purchased two Phrags from the speaker, a regional expert (more in Paphs than in Phrags) - Jason Fischer and Caudatum.

He said Jason Fischer and other Besseae types do fine in my conditions, sitting in 3" of water (a humidity tray with the grate removed) but that Caudatum doesn't want to sit in water.

I have grown and bloomed a giganteum sitting in water, and according to Eliseo Teson Giganteum is 50% caudatum.

Does anyone have any advice on what types can sit in 3" of water? I tried _klotzschianum_ and it slowly died. My Piping Rock has some kind of progressing rot - but I had a _dallesandroi_ that got the same problem, and it should like sitting in water. Could be something besides sitting in water of course.

Thanks for your advice!!

p.s. Most of my plants are hybrids. I did bloom the natural hybrid _richteri_ under my conditions.


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## StreetVariety (Feb 28, 2018)

I had the same rotting issue except for my kovachii. I just water them a lot now.


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## D-novice (Feb 28, 2018)

By and large they are doing OK. Maybe I should avoid species. Too bad because I just spent $50 on a caudatum in bud.

Urgandiae, Giganteum, Inca Embers, richteri, Geralda, and Franz Glanz have all bloomed, some of them more than once (in 2.5 years).


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## xiphius (Mar 1, 2018)

I will preface this by saying that I do not (and have not) grown any of the drier-growing phrags. All of the species and hybrids I have are from the wet-class, and I have a few species (longifolium, besseae, pearcei, hirtzii, andreettae, and QF Maria).

3 inches of water sounds a little extreme for constant submergence unless this is what the plants were already accustomed too, but I have always grown mine standing in 1-2 inches of standing water and have never had any rot issues to speak of (knock on wood). I recently transitioned them to a recirculating water table where they are in about 1.5 inches of water and they all seem to be doing fine.

In fact, pretty much all of them (including the reportedly fussy andreettae) have started pushing new growths (for several of them, this is their second or third new growth in less than a year!).

I would hazard to say that it is probably either something with your water or something else that is off about your culture that is leading to the rot (maybe the media or the pot itself not letting in enough air?). Either that, or the plants were transitioned too quickly into deep standing water and are having trouble adapting to the sudden change in culture? Maybe?

For reference, I use RO water for my phrags and fertilize with 30-50ppm N. They are (mostly) in clay pots and potted in a mix of Sphag moss, red lava rock and charcoal. I try and avoid bark because it breaks down so fast in standing water. I still have a couple in a mix with some bark, but I will probably transition next time I repot them.


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## Gilda (Mar 1, 2018)

I agree 1-2 inches doesn't hurt my caudatums. I learned this from HP Norton, after seeing his growing sitting in water.


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## Linus_Cello (Mar 2, 2018)

I guess a question is what temperature are growing these? More chances of problems at cold ( or too hot) conditions?


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## Gilda (Mar 2, 2018)

Linus_Cello said:


> I guess a question is what temperature are growing these? More chances of problems at cold ( or too hot) conditions?



I would think too cold would hurt more . Mine grow low 60's in Winter to about 82 ish now in Summer. Use to go up into low 90's in Summer before AC was installed last year. I grow phals, and they are not happy in the winter below 60.


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## NYEric (Mar 3, 2018)

Low 60's, and you call that Winter?! oke:
Stagnant water should be made to flow. I use circulating pumps. Otherwise 3" seems a little deep. Good luck. 

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## D-novice (Mar 3, 2018)

OK, thanks.
Correction - it's a little over two inches of water when the trays are full, after evaporation they get closer to 1.5".
By and large I'm using rainwater, though in summer it's filtered tapwater, PPM ~125.
In Northern California, our susceptibility to drought, R/O isn't an option, and collecting rainwater is a great idea. I think my plants like it.
It definitely could get cold in there. Older houses around here are frequently uninsulated, and my phrags and their water trays are in east and south facing corner, with windows at either corner. It can get chilly in that room, but I'm sure the water almost never falls below 55.
From April - October they are either in an outdoor plastic greenhouse or in an intermediate greenhouse.
The rot could be from misting them and the water happening to stand too long when it happens to get cold.

As for air, that is an interesting question. I once had a Memoria Dick Clements, huge plant, wouldn't stop blooming. Before I donated it to the auction at the local orchid society I decided to repot it, and the bark had turned to mud. Actually, mud. And the roots were growing everywhere, no signs of stress, and I'd had it in my usual 2" of water for months.

My potting mix is a semi random combination of orchiata (mostly), charcoal, perlite, leca balls, sphagnum, plus a handful of granite chips. Have been trying out some new tree fern fiber, too, that Cal-West recently got in.


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## D-novice (Mar 3, 2018)

oh circulation. I have one pump. I move it between the two trays every couple days, when I think of it. Probably no harm in getting another one of those cheap little pumps!


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## gego (Mar 3, 2018)

Temp below 60 and very high humidity above 75 is a home for fungus and bacteria in a gh. In the winter, i use dehumidifier and maintain 65 H in the evening. I get heating too at the same time

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## My Green Pets (Mar 4, 2018)

My Grande was plagued with rot until i potted it in rock wool and sat it in about 2 cm of water. Now it's blooming and putting up a new growth.


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## abax (Mar 6, 2018)

Interesting discussion. I never grow any of my 60 or so Phrags. sitting in
water and they're blooming very well. My humidity is high with lots of air
movement, but it seems sitting Phrags. in water is asking for erwinia. I grow
my Phrags. exclusively in clay pots with holes all around the sides and a very
coarse mix of Orchiata and perlite. I do have to water more often, but I suspect the constant air movement is beneficial.


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## monocotman (Mar 7, 2018)

*phrag growing - my views*

I grow all my phrags sat in water year round and they do fine.
However my humidity is not high as I grow indoors on windowsills.
I never mist or water the leaves of the plants to try to increase humidity.
In addition I have almost no air movement and very little rot or erwinia.
My comment would be that the higher the humidity, the less need for sitting in water as the plants are transpiring less.
However high humidity is good for fungal growth and rots hence the need for air movement.
In a home low humidity means that you can get away with much less air movement as the growth of fungus and rots is inhibited. 
Plus, to counteract the effects of low humidity the plants need much more access to water so sitting them in a tray with a constant 1cm of liquid works well.
It all depends on where you grow your plants.
David


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## D-novice (Mar 8, 2018)

I grow them indoors ~6 months a year, sitting in a windowsill; sitting in ~2" of water that is sometimes standing and sometimes circulated with a small pump; I spray them occasionally; and I run a humidifier in the room.

If I had to guess what causes rot, occasionally, in a couple of the plants, I'd guess standing water from spraying, combined with susceptibility in the plant itself. Our plants are hothouse flowers after all!

In nature a lot of these plants are continuously wet and sometimes submerged in a river or stream or bog for a decent period of time. The longifolium I saw in Valle del Cauca Dept, Colombia, was the classic waterfall location, continuously 100% humidity and roots always sodden, and the leaves and flowers in the equivalent of a spraystream 24 hours a day.

What I saw in the rainforest makes me puzzled about the generic recommendation about many orchids needing to dry out. Maybe it's based on the time of year I was there, but I fail to see how they can *ever* dry out.


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## cnycharles (Mar 8, 2018)

In nature you have conditions and media that is hard to replicate in pots. Most especially the natural bioflora and air movement, aerated moisture, constantly replenishing materials that renew the soil, and usually not overwhelming amounts of fertilizer. Root temps stay moderate while in home pots the temps can get really hot. Just a few things


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## gego (Mar 8, 2018)

In nature the supply of moving air is boundless, providing almost constant humidity low enough to take some more moisture to any surface it gets contact to but high enough not to desiccate plants.

In a closed area like a greenhouse, the moving air will aid in faster evaporation and at higher temperature (daytime) more moisture can be absorb. All good, plants are dry.

The problem comes when the temp goes down (nighttime) and the same air that has been circulated starts to get saturated with water. Humidity shoots up over 90 and condensation follows as the air will not be able to hold the moisture anymore. 

Surfaces starts to get wet including the plants. Fungus and bacteria are always present but when the temp and moisture are right, they multiply really fast and become really active. When they are active they need food.


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