# hybrids registration



## reivilos (Apr 3, 2013)

Hello,
I've walked the RHS database using their search.
Initially I wanted to draw the graph of all hybrids made so far. It turned out horrible - impossible to read.
Then I came up with this:





This is the number of paph hybrids registrations per year. As expected, the number of new hybrids increases over time. However there's a drop in the 80s. Anyone knows why?
Olivier
 
Registrations count per "Originator" to come...


----------



## TyroneGenade (Apr 3, 2013)

Paphs went out of fashion.


----------



## reivilos (Apr 3, 2013)

I've only mentionned the first 50, covering 55% of the 23k hybrids.


----------



## Erythrone (Apr 3, 2013)

Very interesting!


----------



## NYEric (Apr 3, 2013)

I'm actually thinking of doing some research into the number and location of Paph hybrids registered. I think it will show that CITES enforcement is crippling production of Paphs in some locations.


----------



## Shiva (Apr 3, 2013)

''However there's a drop in the 80s. Anyone knows why?''

I stopped buying orchids for a while.


----------



## NYEric (Apr 3, 2013)

Wow!


----------



## limuhead (Apr 3, 2013)

I think that Paph hybrids went down in the 80's because of Disco. I am pretty sure that if you did some research you would find that Phal hybrids skyrocketed during the Disco era.... :rollhappy:


----------



## reivilos (Apr 3, 2013)

Yeah but not everybody listens to disco... Not all Paphiomaniacs turned
to phals, did they?


----------



## Ozpaph (Apr 3, 2013)

I think hybridising markedly increased after the introduction of many new species esp the parvis and increased availablity of species esp in the USA and Europe (as opposed to UK/Ratcliffes).
Can you search what the hybrids were after the dip?


----------



## Ozpaph (Apr 3, 2013)

limuhead said:


> I think that Paph hybrids went down in the 80's because of Disco. I am pretty sure that if you did some research you would find that Phal hybrids skyrocketed during the Disco era.... :rollhappy:



........are you saying Disco is over???..................I'm always the last to know!


----------



## gonewild (Apr 3, 2013)

reivilos said:


> However there's a drop in the 80s. Anyone knows why?
> Olivier



Prior to 1980 Paphs were not common. They were not easy to grow. Good ones were VERY expensive and most of the quality plants were in the hands of only a few growers. So the "hobbyist" did not produce hybrids to register.

During the 80's plants got cheaper and more species became available to use to hybridize. Some of the big growers liquidated stock at lower prices and this made more plants available. 

The increase you see in the 90's is the result of crosses made in the 80's...remember it takes some years to bring the seedlings into flower so they can be registered.


----------



## Leo Schordje (Apr 3, 2013)

How's this for an explaination: In the 1970's and early 1980's species that were largely lost to cultivation were being imported again. Rothschildianum was down to just a handful of plants, when the Collinette Expedition brought back some 50 or so new clones of Paph rothschildianum. A lot of time was spent re-making rothschildianum and other primary hybrids. 

Then about 1975 or so, the first vinicolor callosum was identified. The lack of registrations during the 1980s is most likely because VINICOLORS and PRIMARY HYBRIDS were the rage, and everybody was RE-MAKING old 19th century primary crosses using vinicolor callosum and vinicolor Maudiaes. All those old Maudiae hybrids were re-done. Well, the RHS database does not get a 'hit' for a re-make. That's why the low count for new hybrids. 

That my thought.


----------



## SlipperFan (Apr 3, 2013)

Interesting thread -- very interesting charts. Thanks for doing this.

This would make a great article for the Slipper Alliance. Or Orchids Magazine. Or......


----------



## cnycharles (Apr 3, 2013)

with the oil/gas problems in the 70's and shortages, did this affect heating prices in the mid/late 70's? could be that a bunch of people got out of plants/greenhouses and weren't making new hybrids so they weren't for sale or registered in the 80's? i think the other explanations sound better myself

my other non-slipper take was that the only things available around that time-period were big, waxy plastic winston churchill type things, and nobody wanted to buy them or make hybrids with them (just my phal-species opinion  which isn't worth very much) and probably not very accurate, either


----------



## gonewild (Apr 4, 2013)

cnycharles said:


> > with the oil/gas problems in the 70's and shortages, did this affect heating prices in the mid/late 70's? could be that a bunch of people got out of plants/greenhouses and weren't making new hybrids so they weren't for sale or registered in the 80's? i think the other explanations sound better myself
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Trithor (Apr 4, 2013)

It would be interesting to see the position of new species introduction/rediscovery on your timeline graph. I suspect as others have pointed out, that the reintroduction of horticulturaly desirable species was a big influencing factor (roths and delenatii come to mind) as well as the introduction of the whole parvi group in ?early 80's?


----------



## cnycharles (Apr 4, 2013)

gonewild said:


> In the 70's I forget the exact date Universal Orchid Company burned and all their Paphs were destroyed. They had been buying up all the high quality plants they could get their hands on so a lot of top breeding plants were lost in one moment. Hundreds of crosses growing in flats were lost.



bigtime ouch! 



> Actually everyone wanted to buy them but no one could afford the price of a quality plant. Divisions sold for $500 for a decent plant and awarded clones $1500 and up.


that would have kept me out of the market 

one other thing of historical note is that in the 70's and 80's, jim rice orchids in homer ny started really importing a ton of orchid species from all over the world. many of their plants came from old collector's collections, people that jim had met in his travels and most likely had a few beers or such with... when a collector would pass away, their wives would often contact jim and give him the collector's private collection. many of antec's paph species (and some hybrids) came originally from rice's orchids, or from others who bought species from rices. so, many of antec's species and hybrids, that led to awards at and after this time and went into many antec hybrids, came from rice's orchids (and many species that I bought and killed came from there also  . )


----------



## tim (Apr 4, 2013)

dip corresponds to the discovery of callosum 'JAC' (or viniferum or whatever) and a shift in market trends from complex as pot plants to maudiae-types as pot plants; working with less complex breeding material, re-making older hybrids with vini forms of callosum, waning market interest in complexes, increased interest in species and vinis, as well as the loss of major american hybridizers around the 1980s - Tonkins stopped breeding, Frank Hughes stopped breeding, Bob Jones sold his collection, Stewarts and McClellans dropped their complex lines - all this makes for a little dip...


----------



## Erythrone (Apr 4, 2013)

What about this explanation :

In the 80s, the orchid register decided to take a few sabbatical years 

(just kidding...)


----------



## Secundino (Apr 4, 2013)

I had more paphs 'prior to 1980' than now...and those weren't expensive at all. 
And it was the time the first reliable and big rose and red Phalaenopsis appeared, Phal. Zada, Phal. Lippezauber,....remember? In a few years 'orchid' meant Phalaenopsis. There was the money to make.
Nice colors in the chart...


----------



## slippertalker (Apr 4, 2013)

My impression is that prior to the 1980's most of the hybrids were traditional complex bulldog types. With the discovery of several new species including sukhakulii, vinicolored callosum, etc and the ensuing CITES1 listing, all of these species were imported in huge numbers, then selectively bred. The interest in paph species, then new primary hybrids drove the increase. Of course, everyone wants what is tough to obtain.


----------



## reivilos (Apr 4, 2013)

Here are the 35 most frequent parents from 75 to 89.


----------



## reivilos (Apr 4, 2013)

Crosses per "originator" in the 80s (top 20 originators over the period).


----------



## NYEric (Apr 4, 2013)

More recent info is needed. I bet you will find a huge shift to Asian breeders using Parvisepilum species.


----------



## reivilos (Apr 4, 2013)




----------



## Ozpaph (Apr 5, 2013)

I love this data, thanks.
Radcliffe's fell off a cliff! Then started and stopped. I wonder if there head 'breeder' changed or their programme changed direction a few times?


----------



## tim (Apr 5, 2013)

moving from the lovely English countryside to Florida and trying to bring your complex paphs with you will make all kinds of difficulty for your breeding program...


----------



## TyroneGenade (Apr 5, 2013)

reivilos said:


> Here are the 35 most frequent parents from 75 to 89.



Can you give us a table of the total top 35 most frequent parents? I see Winston is being used a lot but how many progeny did he have in total over the 15 years? I would expect fairrianum to also be a popular breeder.

Any chance you can split the list between pod/pollen parent?


----------



## NYEric (Apr 5, 2013)

WOW!! Look at Mukoyama's rush!! Who are the top breeders in Mainland China going to be?? 

BTW. When Ratcliffe moved to Kissimee they got access to a lot of new species. I think BS with CITES seizures and Mary's health put a crimp in their hybridization work.


----------



## Drorchid (Apr 5, 2013)

Yeah! I show up on the list, as have made 83 Paph hybrids thus far (can't believe it is already that much!)

Thanks for posting those, very interesting!! Can you make similar lists for Phragmipedium hybrids?

Robert


----------



## reivilos (Apr 5, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> Can you give us a table of the total top 35 most frequent parents? I see Winston is being used a lot but how many progeny did he have in total over the 15 years? I would expect fairrianum to also be a popular breeder.


Winston Churchill was used as parent a total of 609 times (!). 180 in the 2000s, 161 in the 90s and 126 times in the 80s... Perhaps most funny is Paph. Afternoon Tea. (Winston Churchill × English Tea) :rollhappy:.

Most common parents since the "beginning":
Winston Churchill 609
insigne 421
fairrieanum 368
spicerianum 353
bellatulum 349
rothschildianum 341
Maudiae 306
Hellas 302
Leeanum 296
charlesworthii 264
niveum 259
villosum 237
callosum 230
Harrisianum 225
lawrenceanum 223
sukhakulii 214
Paeony 208
F. C. Puddle 208
godefroyae 201
Nitens 197
delenatii 191
Amanda 183
barbatum 180
philippinense 173
Saint Swithin 165
Pacific Ocean 163
boxallii 160
primulinum 160
hirsutissimum 156
superbiens 155
concolor 151
Cardinal Mercier 150
Skip Bartlett 149
venustum 147
glaucophyllum 147
Sparsholt 146
Chardmoore 143
Small World 133
chamberlainianum 133
Atlantis 132



TyroneGenade said:


> Any chance you can split the list between pod/pollen parent?



Does the RHS really care about seed and pollen ? Can we trust that information ? I'm not even sure which is which when I'm sold a plant - sometimes, not even the (re)seller...


----------



## mormodes (Apr 5, 2013)

revilios, which database are you pulling this from? Is this teh data online or is it a separate program you install in your own computer?


----------



## Trithor (Apr 6, 2013)

reivilos said:


> Winston Churchill was used as parent a total of 609 times (!). 180 in the 2000s, 161 in the 90s and 126 times in the 80s... Perhaps most funny is Paph. Afternoon Tea. (Winston Churchill × English Tea) :rollhappy:.
> 
> Most common parents since the "beginning":
> Winston Churchill 609
> ...



I am astounded by spicerianum, as it does not seem to breed very well, or am I very poorly informed?


----------



## TyroneGenade (Apr 7, 2013)

Spicerianum is in the back ground over every complex cross. Whether or not it breeds well it has very desirable traits and I think this is why it has been used so many time and had so many hybrids registered. That 353 is only the registered crosses made. There may have been many more that werent' worth registering.

Thanks for the info reivilos. I am not surprised by the top 10.

I think RHS can be trusted for pod/pollen parent and I think it matters are each parent contributes different: pod mostly size and vigour while the pollen may only contribute a little to vigour. Both parents should contribute equally to shape and color as this isn't mitochondrially inherited.


----------



## li'l frog (Apr 7, 2013)

Phrag breeding was almost non-existant for 80 years, began in a small way in the 60's & 70's. It wasn't until the late 80's that Phrag breeding increased, because of the discovery of Phrag besseae, and the addition of color and form to the genus.


----------



## Trithor (Apr 7, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> Spicerianum is in the back ground over every complex cross. Whether or not it breeds well it has very desirable traits and I think this is why it has been used so many time and had so many hybrids registered. That 353 is only the registered crosses made. There may have been many more that werent' worth registering.
> 
> Thanks for the info reivilos. I am not surprised by the top 10.
> 
> I think RHS can be trusted for pod/pollen parent and I think it matters are each parent contributes different: pod mostly size and vigour while the pollen may only contribute a little to vigour. Both parents should contribute equally to shape and color as this isn't mitochondrially inherited.



I agree that it occures in the background, but so does insigne, bellatulum and barbatum. If fact nearly every early introduced paph occures in the background of nearly every complex, that does not mean that the species breeds well, just that it was arround in the beginning when the hybridizing got started. I would hazzard a guess that bellatulum and roths which have been used less/similar, account for at least 10x the ammount of awards each. Awards to primary offspring of spicerianum must be very few and far between, with Bruno and Leeanum probably accounting for more than half of them In fact offhand I cannot think of many other awarded hybrids, appart from Stone Lovely (about the only recent one I think)


----------



## reivilos (Apr 7, 2013)

Now the phrags.

Almost nothing till the 90s:





The top 20 originators make up 70% of all crosses:


----------



## li'l frog (Apr 7, 2013)

Amazing what one little red flower can do.


----------



## NYEric (Apr 7, 2013)

You're forgetting about the Big Purple one! oke:


----------

