# New Seedlings



## hchan (Jan 16, 2011)

I'm excited and also a bit nervous, the paph seedlings I've ordered are on their way. These will be my first paphs so let's see how I go. I'm ordering at a funny time of year, so there isn't the widest choice, but here is what I'm getting:

*Paph. philippinense* (phil x sib) ('phil#2' x 'phil#3), 50-80mm leaf span (Qty 3)
*Un-named grex* (Hsinying Cyber Leopard 'Blood Red' x Hsinying Macasar 'Hsinying'), 80+mm leaf span (Qty 3)
*Paph. Jennifer Stage* (philippinense var alba x leucochilum var alba), 100-120mm leaf span (Qty 3)
*Paph. Berenice* (philippinense var alba x lowii var alba), 80+mm leaf span (Qty 3)
*Paph. Shin-Yi Genevese* (Shin Yi Lady x sanderianum), 60+mm leaf span (Qty 2)

Mostly hybrids, which should hopefully make it easier for a beginner! I didn't even ask whether the philippinense is var roebellinii or not, but I don't mind what it is at this stage. The nameless Maudiae type is in there as it should be easier to grow. The alba remakes of Jennifer Stage and Berenice should be interesting, I haven't seen any pictures of alba forms of these two, but maybe they're around and I just haven't found them. It seems albas can sometimes be a bit fussier, hmm... The Shin-Yi Genevese has a lot of sanderianum in it, I think it is ((((stonei x phil) x roth) x sand) x sand). I wonder how easy or hard it will be to grow?

In terms of growing areas, I have the choice of an east facing window or under a skylight (slope of the roof facing west). I'm going to experiment a bit but I think both areas should be fine, though I'm thinking the Shin-Yi Genevese will want more sun.

Wish me luck!!

Hubert


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## ehanes7612 (Jan 17, 2011)

grow them in moderately low levels. if you can acquire a light meter, levels for the multifloral seedlings should not exceed 1500 footcandles for more than a couple hours and best if the light is around 800-1000 footcandles.the Berenice albas can tolerate a little more (1200 ..lowii influence) but you have to be careful with seedlings that small. The problem with experimenting with seedlings is that they may not respond quickly enough before the damage is done and if that happens recovery is very difficult.. humidity is important also...above 50 %ensures better growth although some hybrids do ok in lower conditions.


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## hchan (Jan 17, 2011)

Thanks for the tips. So seedlings generally want a little less light than adult plants? Morning light from the east window might be a bit much then. I don't have a light meter...


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## goldenrose (Jan 17, 2011)

hchan said:


> ...*Paph. Berenice* (philippinense var alba x lowii var alba), 80+mm leaf span (Qty 3)
> The alba remakes of Jennifer Stage and Berenice should be interesting, I haven't seen any pictures of alba forms of these two, but maybe they're around and I just haven't found them. It seems albas can sometimes be a bit fussier, hmm...
> Hubert


I have Berenice album, a 3 plant compot that I got off ebay a year ago, by April they were ready for individual pots, so I certainly don't think they're a bit fussy at all! I've not seen any pics either, I'm expecting they won't be true albas, like Lebaudyanum album (phili album x haynald alba), but maybe I'll be wrong at least on one plant!
I would think an east window would be ideal.


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## chrismende (Jan 17, 2011)

Hi, Hubert, I'm realizing that it's summer there, right? Just watch out for too much sun from both places. I'd start at the periphery of the light and work slowly inward for a couple weeks or so. I have an east window that's great as long as I use a diffusion blind or thin white cloth curtain during the hottest time of the day.


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## hchan (Jan 17, 2011)

Thanks Chris! Yes it is summer here and it has been very warm and humid (much more humid than normal). The skylight is rather difficult to shade, but I can shade the east window and also move the table away from the window and then move it back gradually. Thanks for the idea


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## ehanes7612 (Jan 17, 2011)

goldenrose said:


> I have Berenice album, a 3 plant compot that I got off ebay a year ago, by April they were ready for individual pots, so I certainly don't think they're a bit fussy at all! I've not seen any pics either, I'm expecting they won't be true albas, like Lebaudyanum album (phili album x haynald alba), but maybe I'll be wrong at least on one plant!
> I would think an east window would be ideal.



those were probably the ones i sold you, that cross is quite exceptional and can tolerate quite a bit of light....i grow them with my adult plants (but thats still around 1200 FC)...HCHAN...i would not give the sanderianum cross much light, sanderianum crosses bleach real easy, which is not good for seedlings. Best to start out with low light , you want the little ones to adjust under new conditions anyway... phil seedlings can take a little more but still not as much as adults...the Jennifer stage might be NBS so it can take adult light but watch the bleaching effect that happens with changes in environment...because phil and brachys have thick epidermal layers they give early signs of damage showing up as sunken tissue...this could mean a few things, and quite often accompanies changes in envt, as long as the sunken tissue doesnt spread too far , it should be okay


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## paphioboy (Jan 17, 2011)

Great purchase... Where did you get them from, if you don't mind my asking..?


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## ehanes7612 (Jan 17, 2011)

chrismende said:


> Hi, Hubert, I'm realizing that it's summer there, right? Just watch out for too much sun from both places. I'd start at the periphery of the light and work slowly inward for a couple weeks or so. I have an east window that's great as long as I use a diffusion blind or thin white cloth curtain during the hottest time of the day.



this is a great idea


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## W. Beetus (Jan 17, 2011)

Berenice alba sounds interesting! Those all sound like great choices for seedlings. I think you will do well with the multi's. All I can say is that they LOVE light, and lots of it!


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## hchan (Jan 17, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> Great purchase... Where did you get them from, if you don't mind my asking..?



I bought them from Ivan: www.ivanorchids.com.au. Some of the seedlings are the last ones of that particular type, but he has others still in stock that you can choose from. Plus he will have some new stock in 1-2 months. Are you based in Adelaide still or back overseas?


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## hchan (Jan 19, 2011)

The seedlings arrived safely on Tuesday and seem to be settling in OK at this stage!


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## emydura (Jan 19, 2011)

Looks good Hubert. Best of luck.



> /= you will do well with the multi's. All I can say is that they LOVE light, and lots of it!



Only the adult plants though. I would keep the seedlings heavily shaded. Mine did so much better once I removed them from bright light.

David


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## hchan (Jan 19, 2011)

emydura said:


> Only the adult plants though. I would keep the seedlings heavily shaded. Mine did so much better once I removed them from bright light.



Thanks David! How many footcandles are your seedlings getting at the moment? BTW, do you still do that fish tank thing with your seedlings that I saw in another thread?


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## paphioboy (Jan 20, 2011)

Thank you for the link, Hubert..  I will be returning to Adelaide sometime next month.


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## NYEric (Jan 20, 2011)

Interesting choices, I was considering a couple of those from Sam Tsui.


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## hchan (Jan 20, 2011)

Yes I think Orchid Inn is one of the places he sources from, so you're likely to come across the same crosses. There's some extra info on the tags I haven't posted yet, so I'll do that tonight.


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## emydura (Jan 20, 2011)

hchan said:


> Thanks David! How many footcandles are your seedlings getting at the moment? BTW, do you still do that fish tank thing with your seedlings that I saw in another thread?



I wouldn't have a clue what the footcandles are. I have them on the bottom benches under 3 layers of 70% shade cloth. You don't want too much shade though as the leaves will get soft and then prone to rot.

I've got lots of Phalaenopsis growing in the fish tank at the moment. They are powering on. All the Paphs are in the glasshouse. A fish tank under lights is a good way to speed up your growth. 

David


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## ehanes7612 (Jan 20, 2011)

i think you can measure footcandles or lumens with a SLR camera's metering system and a piece of white paper. i dont remember how exactly (i used to do it years ago before i bought a light meter) but there are probably explanations on the internet..this is another source although i am not too sure about their method of shadow casting as a dependable measure of light intensity

http://www.ladyslipper.com/1stpaph.htm


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## ninnin (Jan 20, 2011)

Jennifer Stage alba and Berenice alba should be interesting.


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## hchan (Jan 20, 2011)

OK a bit more info on the tags:

*Paph. Shin-Yi Genevese* (Shin-Yi Lady 'CY#2' SM/TPS x sanderianum 'Red Longhair')

*Paph. Jennifer Stage* (philippinense var. album 'Albino Beauty' x leuchochilum var. album 'White Knight')

Two of them are now in S/H, going to wait a while before I do the others. The others are hanging suspended in a fish tank, the bottom of which is filled with wet Hydroton, with the tank lid half on for better air circulation (I don't have a small fan).

Hmm... very tempted to try some CO2 injection. Where are my sachets of yeast?! :evil:


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## hchan (Jan 20, 2011)

ehanes7612 said:


> i think you can measure footcandles or lumens with a SLR camera's metering system and a piece of white paper. i dont remember how exactly (i used to do it years ago before i bought a light meter) but there are probably explanations on the internet..this is another source although i am not too sure about their method of shadow casting as a dependable measure of light intensity
> 
> http://www.ladyslipper.com/1stpaph.htm



Thanks for the link, I've been to that site, but skipped that page. It says nice nice things about east windows, which is reassuring!:rollhappy:

I've found something about estimating footcandles with a camera's exposure system, there is a little worksheet from Kodak. I haven't had a chance to try it out just yet though.


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## hchan (Jan 20, 2011)

Here are the Paph. Jennifer Stage parents:

Paph. philippinense var. album 'Albino Beauty'
Photo: Orchid Inn






Paph. leuchochilum var. album (not specifically 'White Knight')
Photo: www.orchid.or.jp


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## paphioboy (Jan 20, 2011)

That last pic looks like F.C. Puddle or one of its hybrids to my complex-untrained eyes.. Definitely NOT leucochilum...


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## Ernie (Jan 20, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> That last pic looks like F.C. Puddle or one of its hybrids to my complex-untrained eyes.. Definitely NOT leucochilum...



Yeah, that's Paph. White Knight 'Destiny' AM/AOS.


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## NYEric (Jan 20, 2011)

If there's a paintball place near you you can buy CO2 tanks and gas.


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## hchan (Jan 20, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Yeah, that's Paph. White Knight 'Destiny' AM/AOS.



Thanks guys, my bad! I didn't read the label properly. Did think it was an interesting shape should've double-checked.  I've substituted another photo now.



NYEric said:


> If there's a paintball place near you you can buy CO2 tanks and gas.



That's gonna be a lot of CO2! I'm just using some yeast for now. People have talked about CO2 addition before, but has anyone actually tried it?


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## emydura (Jan 20, 2011)

hchan said:


> That's gonna be a lot of CO2! I'm just using some yeast for now. People have talked about CO2 addition before, but has anyone actually tried it?



I use to add CO2 (using yeast) to my fish tank when I had acquatic plants. The growth rates were unbelieveable (a few inches a day for some plants). Every week I had to massively prune the plants. Oxygen bubbles would be pouring out of the leaves as the plants were photosynthesising. It is very effective when setup well.

David


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## hchan (Jan 20, 2011)

I have some experience with planted tanks as well, kind of an ex-hobby hehe. Yes certainly made a difference!

Just found *this*, which mentions CO2 and paphs. Also found *this *as well which talks about stomatal responses in paphs.

OK so let's see... optimal growing conditions are 1000-1500 footcandles (for mature plants), blue light supplement, high humidity and high CO2 levels. Hmm... I think that sounds like a Blue Light Disco!! :clap: Have you ever been to a nightclub where the condensation was dripping from the ceiling? :rollhappy: I wonder whether this lack of guard cell chloroplasts explains why paphs can be so slow growing? Maybe if we're growing under lights, we shouldn't just aim for "natural" sunlight but something a bit bluer?


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## NYEric (Jan 21, 2011)

hchan said:


> That's gonna be a lot of CO2! I'm just using some yeast for now. People have talked about CO2 addition before, but has anyone actually tried it?


Not nec. You can get a 10-30 ounce tank, like for on the gun for probably $25 and refill when nec. Jim Toomey was planning on a CO2 setup but he's been away for a while so he cant respond. 



hchan said:


> OK so let's see... optimal growing conditions are 1000-1500 footcandles (for mature plants), blue light supplement, high humidity and high CO2 levels. Hmm... I think that sounds like a Blue Light Disco!! :clap: Have you ever been to a nightclub where the condensation was dripping from the ceiling? :rollhappy:


 Yes, many times!


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## hchan (Jan 21, 2011)

Just think of all that wasted CO2 and humidity that could be feeding our orchids!


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## NYEric (Jan 21, 2011)

Hmmm, interesting idea, wardian case in the club!!


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## hchan (Jan 21, 2011)

Er... I think that should be "in da club".


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## Howzat (Jan 26, 2011)

All my tiny seedlings, just deflasked, I only give 400 Footcandle for 1 year.
Particularly for the Maudiae's I don't give more than 500 foot candles. My multi's are only given 800 foot candles together with my cmplexes. But not for my rothschildianum, when I had them under 7-800, the flowerspikes tend to be too short and stumpy, until I moved them to the 600 area, and since then I have a good length of flower spike. Howard.


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## Ernie (Jan 26, 2011)

You might want to check your light meter or your units? I doubt 700-800 fc is strong enough to encourage a roths to bloom. More like 2000-3000 fc IMO.


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## Rick (Jan 26, 2011)

Ernie said:


> You might want to check your light meter or your units? I doubt 700-800 fc is strong enough to encourage a roths to bloom. More like 2000-3000 fc IMO.



I agree

It's tough for me to get just about any plant to grow right at light levels less than 500 fc.

I also grow my roths/philis/stonei under and next to the Vandas with documented summer lighting up to 3000fc.


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## Howzat (Jan 26, 2011)

I have cheched my lightmeter. Outside under 70% shade cloth in my cymbidium shade house 3000 foot candle, and under 70 plus 50% for my cattleya 2000. Outside (naked) under full sun 12000 - 13000 foot candle. Inside the GH area of Phrag 800 foot candle, area of multis 700-800, area of seedlings 400-500, area of parvis and Maudiaes 500-600. Not sure if the meter is not accurate for lower intensity of lights. Area of Phallies 600-700, and I know they are not growing as well as in my friend's FloraPot nursery who grows his phallies under 1000 , which I observed using my light meter.


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## Rick (Jan 26, 2011)

Howzat said:


> I have cheched my lightmeter. Outside under 70% shade cloth in my cattleya
> shade house 3000 foot candle. Outside (naked) under full sun 12000 - 13000 foot candle. Inside the GH area of Phrag 800 foot candle, area of multis 700-800, area of seedlings 400-500, area of parvis and Maudiaes 500-600. Not sure if the meter is not accurate for lower intensity of lights. Area of Phallies 600-700, and I know they are not growing as well as in my friend's FloraPot nursery who grows his phallies under 1000 , which I observed using my light meter.



Something seems a bit off. All the sources I could Google said that full sun is about 10,000 FC (although 13000 may be "about"?? ). And it seems like most of your stuff grows too good to be consistently under 800. I know we aren't taking peak vs 12 hour average into account. Maybe incident angle?


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## hchan (Jan 27, 2011)

Howard, can you clarify whether you're using artificial or natural light please?


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## Howzat (Jan 27, 2011)

My GH is under under natural light. In western Australia, the sunlight is pretty intense. Always tried to take the measurent at right angle to where the sun is and took the reading around 12-1pm.
250mm under the fluorescent light in my aquarium (Only use it in winter, with 150mm water and an aquarium heater) I could only get 160 ft candle.


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## Ernie (Jan 27, 2011)

Does your light meter require batteries? I've found the analog ones that run without batteries (usually with a needle that swings back and forth http://www.horticulturesource.com/product_info.php?products_id=3658) can be all over the place- consistently. So they might tell you that 1200 fc is 700 fc all the time. 

Shoot, man, just go with it. If you know that genus X grows and blooms well where your meter says it's 800 fc, that's just fine. Even if it's not a representation of reality.


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## Rick (Jan 27, 2011)

Howzat said:


> My GH is under under natural light. In western Australia, the sunlight is pretty intense. Always tried to take the measurent at right angle to where the sun is and took the reading around 12-1pm.
> 250mm under the fluorescent light in my aquarium (Only use it in winter, with 150mm water and an aquarium heater) I could only get 160 ft candle.



What is the wattage of the bulb? See if you can get a reading right up next to the bulb.

10" from the bulb can be a long distance for an old low wattage bulb, and 160fc may not be that far off.

In our lab we have to use an anually "certified and calibrated" light meter for our tox tests, and right up next to a 40W bulb I think we typically clear around 800 fc. We only want about 100fc on the tests, which is about like the ambient room lighting from the overhead fixtures. For running an EPA algae test, we need a light level of about 500fc. To achieve that we have a foil lined box with 8, 20W bulbs about 10" from the water surface.


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## Howzat (Jan 28, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Does your light meter require batteries? I've found the analog ones that run without batteries (usually with a needle that swings back and forth http://www.horticulturesource.com/product_info.php?products_id=3658) can be all over the place- consistently. So they might tell you that 1200 fc is 700 fc all the time.
> 
> Shoot, man, just go with it. If you know that genus X grows and blooms well where your meter says it's 800 fc, that's just fine. Even if it's not a representation of reality.



My Light meter is Al1334 with a range of 20-20,000 foot candle. This use battery 9V.


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## Howzat (Jan 28, 2011)

Rick said:


> What is the wattage of the bulb? See if you can get a reading right up next to the bulb.
> 
> 10" from the bulb can be a long distance for an old low wattage bulb, and 160fc may not be that far off.
> 
> In our lab we have to use an anually "certified and calibrated" light meter for our tox tests, and right up next to a 40W bulb I think we typically clear around 800 fc. We only want about 100fc on the tests, which is about like the ambient room lighting from the overhead fixtures. For running an EPA algae test, we need a light level of about 500fc. To achieve that we have a foil lined box with 8, 20W bulbs about 10" from the water surface.



Rick, I checked my single fluoro light and it is an NEC T8, 37 W.. But that is about right if you have 8-20W and get 500fc??? 160W =500fc and mine 37W=150fc???. My lightmeter I bought from Scientific instrument shop is a Al1334 with batteriy of 9V.
Prior to this discussion I've never heard people (in WA) growing Paph under 1500-2000fc, even the Standard complex. Anyway it is a stimulating subject. WE 'll try to get to the bottom of this.


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## hchan (Jan 28, 2011)

If all else fails, next time I'm in Perth we can do a side by side comparison with my light meter hehe (yes I got myself one).

By the way, for the purposes of some rough and ready benchmarking, what speed does everyone's new leaves grow at on their seedlings? I'm getting new leaf growth and I'm just curious as to how my cultural conditions are going. Does anyone have some rough info on mm per week or some other measure? Multifloral vs. non would be good or more detailed if you have it. Thanks


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## Rick (Jan 28, 2011)

Howzat said:


> Rick, I checked my single fluoro light and it is an NEC T8, 37 W.. But that is about right if you have 8-20W and get 500fc??? 160W =500fc and mine 37W=150fc???. My lightmeter I bought from Scientific instrument shop is a Al1334 with batteriy of 9V.
> Prior to this discussion I've never heard people (in WA) growing Paph under 1500-2000fc, even the Standard complex. Anyway it is a stimulating subject. WE 'll try to get to the bottom of this.




Checking in our lab your meter doesn't seem obviously off.

I put the sensor right up next to a 35 watt fluro and got 1000fc. Ten inches away 80fc.

Might have to look up more sources of suggested light levels. Who knows, you might get twice the growth rates you're getting now??


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## Rick (Jan 28, 2011)

However you may need to consider that light/heat/humidity are interconnected.

If you are working in a warm environment to start with, adding more light can be detrimental because it will elevate leaf temps above the ambient just by conductance.

If the humidity is low that will further stress the plant when it is hot, by sucking out all the water in it. (Despite getting some evaporative cooling).


Seems like the Pacific NW people have real good luck with Pleurothalids types because it's cool, damp and dark a lot more than here in the South East US. But down here, our bulbos and Vandas are super easy.


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## Howzat (Jan 28, 2011)

Rick said:


> However you may need to consider that light/heat/humidity are interconnected.
> 
> If you are working in a warm environment to start with, adding more light can be detrimental because it will elevate leaf temps above the ambient just by conductance.
> 
> ...




I am also battling with low humidity. For all I have done in the last few year 1. lining the inside with soft plastic (guaranteed to last 10 years), air evaporative cooler (to control temp as well) constant auto misting (I can adjust this , now it is on every 15 minutes for 10 secs) the under the bench, I could only get 50% during summer afternoon. I winter I space it to every 50min for 8 secs. Even with evaporative cooler and I set at 30C (cuts in at about 28C), when the temp outside goes up to 40C, inside it is 35C. We have temp up to 45C once in a while. When hot (over 36C-43C) I have to go out and hand sprayin the plants to cool them down and also add humidity. In the last 3 days and today as well we are having 38-39C.
Sounds like you live in Florida ????


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## emydura (Jan 28, 2011)

Howzat said:


> I am also battling with low humidity. For all I have done in the last few year 1. lining the inside with soft plastic (guaranteed to last 10 years), air evaporative cooler (to control temp as well) constant auto misting (I can adjust this , now it is on every 15 minutes for 10 secs) the under the bench, I could only get 50% during summer afternoon. I winter I space it to every 50min for 8 secs. Even with evaporative cooler and I set at 30C (cuts in at about 28C), when the temp outside goes up to 40C, inside it is 35C. We have temp up to 45C once in a while. When hot (over 36C-43C) I have to go out and hand sprayin the plants to cool them down and also add humidity. In the last 3 days and today as well we are having 38-39C.
> Sounds like you live in Florida ????



I had the same problem here in Canberra. The summers here are hot and dry (except this year). I got one of those foggers from the US. Best thing I have ever bought. It is on a humidstat so comes on and off when it is required. Keeps the glasshouse humid as well as cool. The temperature never goes above 31oC in my glasshouse, even if it is 40oC + outside. I'm going to the coast on Monday for 5 or 6 days. The temperatures are projected 35-40oC every day. The fogger gives me peace of mind as I know the conditions will remain pretty stable inside the glasshouse irrespective of how hot it gets outside. I also find the increased humidity means I don't need to water that much in summer. I can go a week without watering. Funnily enough I probably water more in winter as the heating can really dry out my plants.

David


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## SlipperFan (Jan 28, 2011)

Which fogger did you get, David?


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## emydura (Jan 28, 2011)

SlipperFan said:


> Which fogger did you get, David?



Dot I bought the Jaybird Aqua400. I don't think they sell it anymore. I think it may have been superseded. It is mounted at the top of my glasshouse and the fine mist is propelled by a fan. You never see a dense fog.

It goes pretty well. I have to replace the pump every two years or so. That seems to be the most common problem. The pump is pretty cheap to buy though. It is a good idea to keep one or two spare so you can quickly have your fogger back working.

David


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## SlipperFan (Jan 28, 2011)

Thanks, David. That's something I think I will eventually have to look into. I'll remember Jaybird.


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## Rick (Jan 28, 2011)

Howzat said:


> I am also battling with low humidity. For all I have done in the last few year 1. lining the inside with soft plastic (guaranteed to last 10 years), air evaporative cooler (to control temp as well) constant auto misting (I can adjust this , now it is on every 15 minutes for 10 secs) the under the bench, I could only get 50% during summer afternoon. I winter I space it to every 50min for 8 secs. Even with evaporative cooler and I set at 30C (cuts in at about 28C), when the temp outside goes up to 40C, inside it is 35C. We have temp up to 45C once in a while. When hot (over 36C-43C) I have to go out and hand sprayin the plants to cool them down and also add humidity. In the last 3 days and today as well we are having 38-39C.
> Sounds like you live in Florida ????



No I live in Tennessee, which is barely in what most consider the SE. We do see summer highs 32 - 38 but humidity will be up as high as 70% with breezes coming in from the south, and pretty regular rainfall throughout the year. More likely though summer humidity has been under 60%, winter with heating can drop it to 30%. My house is about 1000 ft elevation so a bit cooler than right in Nashville at 500ft. Ernie is in Florida now, so warmer and muggier than me.

I've gone through lots of gyrations to get my GH humidity up too. I went from misters to foggers (a Jaybird like David's) to wet pad. I use a humidistat in conjunction with thermostat rather than timers. When I put the misting system together, it worked well for temp and humidity control, but used so much water I almost floated my house off its foundation:sob:

That's when I got the fogger. Definitely more efficient for cooling and humidification, but since it runs on my [email protected]!$% well water my plants get covered with a layer of sticky white dust (hard water deposits). It does use a fraction of the water that the misting system would use. Thats when I built the wet pad (known as a swamp cooler in this part of the world). It covers about 80% of my temperature and humidification needs, but I still have the fogger to bail me out for the peaks. Fortunately since the swamp cooler is doing most of the work, the amount of "white dust" is much less of a problem.


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## Rick (Jan 28, 2011)

emydura said:


> Dot I bought the Jaybird Aqua400. I don't think they sell it anymore. I think it may have been superseded. It is mounted at the top of my glasshouse and the fine mist is propelled by a fan. You never see a dense fog.
> 
> It goes pretty well. I have to replace the pump every two years or so. That seems to be the most common problem. The pump is pretty cheap to buy though. It is a good idea to keep one or two spare so you can quickly have your fogger back working.
> 
> David


I think I've had mine for about 5 years and still use the original pump. But I do have to take the whole thing apart and clean the algae and hard water deposits out of it fairly regularly. I'm still pretty happy with it.

Even according to the Jaybird people they are making "droplets" a bit bigger than true fog (which I think takes a highly pressurized device or ultrasonic energy), but it's still way better than a misting system for the price and operational cost.


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## emydura (Jan 28, 2011)

Rick said:


> I think I've had mine for about 5 years and still use the original pump. But I do have to take the whole thing apart and clean the algae and hard water deposits out of it fairly regularly. I'm still pretty happy with it.
> 
> Even according to the Jaybird people they are making "droplets" a bit bigger than true fog (which I think takes a highly pressurized device or ultrasonic energy), but it's still way better than a misting system for the price and operational cost.



You are lucky. I think I have replaced 2 or 3 pumps now (average lifespan of 2 years). Jaybird told me it is the most common problem and that it is not unusual to have to replace them. Fortunately for me our water is low in TDS so I don't have the problem of the white hard water deposits all over my orchids.

David


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## SlipperFan (Jan 29, 2011)

Would softened water be appropriate for a fogger? I know that softened water is inappropriate for watering, but what about fogging?


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## Rick (Jan 29, 2011)

SlipperFan said:


> Would softened water be appropriate for a fogger? I know that softened water is inappropriate for watering, but what about fogging?



It's better for the fogger, but still just as bad for the plants getting fogged. 

The Jaybird 400 (or similar foggers) run at about 1/2 gal per hour if I remember correctly, which you could run on RO water if you couldn't get away with your regular tap water.

What is the hardness of your tap water Dot?


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## emydura (Jan 29, 2011)

Dot - whatever you get, make sure you get one with a humidistat. It was an optional extra with the Jaybird 400. They are a bit pointless without one.

David


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## SlipperFan (Jan 29, 2011)

emydura said:


> Dot - whatever you get, make sure you get one with a humidistat. It was an optional extra with the Jaybird 400. They are a bit pointless without one.
> 
> David


Yes -- thanks! I have 3 right now, but they all read differently, by as much as 10º! I hope the ones Jaybird sells are accurate.


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## Rick (Jan 29, 2011)

SlipperFan said:


> Yes -- thanks! I have 3 right now, but they all read differently, by as much as 10º! I hope the ones Jaybird sells are accurate.



Are you referring to hygrometers (strictly measuring humidity) or humidistats (which control devices that make humidity). Are the 3 you have all right next to each other for comparison? If so then you probably need to junk one of them. But it wouldn't surprise me to see a 10% difference several feet apart in the same GH. 

Actually as long as you have a hygrometer you trust, then the "accuracy" of any humidistat is irrelevant, since you just set it in to turn on/off your appliance in accordance to your most trusted hygrometer.


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## Rick (Jan 29, 2011)

I guess I'm not remembering correctly, I think my model is the 300 or 350 and it uses about 3-5 gal per hour ( I have some mist heads that I haven't used for years rated at 0.5 gal per minute, or 30 gal per hour)

I was on the Jaybird Mnfc. site and the hobby size unit is now the Aquafog 700.

It says it has no pumps or float valves (which mine and David's have). Direct feed off your house line, but has a flow control valve.

There unit price is $500+


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## SlipperFan (Jan 30, 2011)

Rick said:


> Are you referring to hygrometers (strictly measuring humidity) or humidistats (which control devices that make humidity). Are the 3 you have all right next to each other for comparison? If so then you probably need to junk one of them. But it wouldn't surprise me to see a 10% difference several feet apart in the same GH.
> 
> Actually as long as you have a hygrometer you trust, then the "accuracy" of any humidistat is irrelevant, since you just set it in to turn on/off your appliance in accordance to your most trusted hygrometer.



Actually, they are cheap devices that measure both temperature and humidity (separately). They don't control either one. I've put them side-by-side to see how close they are to one another. Two are within a degree or two of each other, and the third is way off. I have them in different parts of the greenhouse, and read them with a grain of salt -- especially the way-off one. But they give me an idea of what the humidity is.


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## Howzat (Jan 31, 2011)

I saw a fogger manufacturer in Taiwan. Strong unit and working on 1000psi. Could do about 100 nozzles and uses a 5 micron filter.
For the people in the eastern states, Camira Orchids is the agent for these fogger.


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## Rick (Feb 1, 2011)

Howzat said:


> I saw a fogger manufacturer in Taiwan. Strong unit and working on 1000psi. Could do about 100 nozzles and uses a 5 micron filter.
> For the people in the eastern states, Camira Orchids is the agent for these fogger.



This is definitely a true fogger, but isn't it pretty pricey?

Howard 

Did you see my PM on Aluminet.?


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## Howzat (Feb 1, 2011)

Rick said:


> This is definitely a true fogger, but isn't it pretty pricey?
> 
> Howard
> 
> Did you see my PM on Aluminet.?



Camira is selling in Australia for around $2500 including all the nozzles/piping It is probably good for a huge GH.
I don't know if it is too big for my hobbyist GH. I will find out more when I go to Taiwan next month, if they have a smaller unit.
Sorry, I don't know what your "PM on Aluminet" is????


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## hchan (Feb 1, 2011)

Howzat said:


> Sorry, I don't know what your "PM on Aluminet" is????



It means Rick sent you a Private Message regarding Aluminet. It's a fancy shadecloth. Have you checked your PMs?


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## Rick (Feb 2, 2011)

Howzat said:


> Camira is selling in Australia for around $2500 including all the nozzles/piping It is probably good for a huge GH.
> I don't know if it is too big for my hobbyist GH. I will find out more when I go to Taiwan next month, if they have a smaller unit.
> Sorry, I don't know what your "PM on Aluminet" is????



The last time I checked the prices on GH size presure foggers, the bulk of the price was the preasure pump which seemed to be the same for large or small GH's, which is which I went with the Aquafog unit for under $500 (at the time). But you will get a superior fog with a high pressure unit.


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## Howzat (Feb 3, 2011)

hchan said:


> It means Rick sent you a Private Message regarding Aluminet. It's a fancy shadecloth. Have you checked your PMs?


Thank you Hubert,


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## emydura (Feb 4, 2011)

Rick said:


> This is definitely a true fogger, but isn't it pretty pricey?
> 
> Howard
> 
> Did you see my PM on Aluminet.?



Sam Tsui was telling me you can get good foggers from Taiwan very cheaply. He recommended this option rather than get stuff from the US.

David


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## Howzat (Feb 5, 2011)

emydura said:


> Sam Tsui was telling me you can get good foggers from Taiwan very cheaply. He recommended this option rather than get stuff from the US.
> 
> David



Yes, at the TIOS show there was a new comer in this field and he was asking for US$550.-, but I did not know the quality and what the warranty is. The other problem is, the whole unit in the box is pretty heavy with all the compressor, piping, nozzle etc. And I don't know if my allowable baggage of 25kg can handle this. Or should I send it as unaccompanied baggage. See if he is still there at this year TIOS. I am bringing home some flasks too, maybe more than 6 allowed without permit. 
The other day, there was somebody posted a link to a website which offers hygrometer, siphoned fertilising unit amongst other things, did you see this????. I want to buy the siphoned type fertilising unit.


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## emydura (Feb 23, 2011)

Another pump on my Jaybird fogger went yesterday. Luckily I have a spare so I will have to fix it before I go to today as it is going to be hot here. I will have to get a couple of new pumps from JAybird as well. Given they have moved to pumpless foggers you wonder how much longer they will support the Jaybird 400.

David


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## SlipperFan (Feb 23, 2011)

emydura said:


> Another pump on my Jaybird fogger went yesterday. Luckily I have a spare so I will have to fix it before I go to today as it is going to be hot here. I will have to get a couple of new pumps from JAybird as well. Given they have moved to pumpless foggers you wonder how much longer they will support the Jaybird 400.
> 
> David


Maybe they'll give you a credit toward one of their new ones?


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