# Paphiopedilum hangianum on ebay US



## Roth (Sep 7, 2006)

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-PAPH-ORCHID-SPECIES-emersonii-BS-plant_W0QQitemZ280024683386QQihZ018QQ

Nice wild-collected plant... but that's not an emersonii, it is a hangianum for sure, the leaves are typical.


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## Mycorrhizae (Sep 7, 2006)

Really? I never would have caught that, but then, due to the illegality of _Paph. hangianum_ in this country, I've never been fortunate enough to see _Paph. hangianum_ in real life. 

But I do have dozens of _Paph. emersonii_ from stock I acquired in the 80's and others I have raised from the seed of those plants - and while they don't look anything like that now, that plant in the lower photo is very much how I remember the first plants of _Paph. emersonii _looked when I got 'em almost 20 years ago. I do agree that the plant in the lower photo absolutely does look like it has been wild-collected.


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## kentuckiense (Sep 7, 2006)

For some reason I find the high bidder's username to be absolutely hilarious.


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## cdub (Sep 7, 2006)

I've received plants from this seller before, but this auction seems sketchy. It's basically a mystery plant until it blooms. They sell a bunch of other normal stuff, so I wonder why they would all of a sudden gamble on a wild-collected, illegal, plant?

I'm going to make a username HigherbidYouSuck and outbid fairbid2win!


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## Mahon (Sep 7, 2006)

I saw this auction a few days ago. Just by looking at it, you can tell it is wild collected (we don't have those bugs that do that damage on leaves in Florida)... and yes, I will agree it is _Paph. hangianum_, _Paph. emersonii_ has different leaves... _Paph. hangainum_ has those flattened leaves, while _Paph. emersonii_ has more succulent leaves... there are a few other differences just in vegetative features...

Also, Thanh mentions it is a plant of the same batch from the pictured _Paph. emersonii_... let us just say this _Paph. hangianum_ is actually a _Paph. emersonii_... if it was from the same batch, would it AT LEAST have 2 growths, or already have flowered? If this was from the same batch, then it must be a real runt... heh...

-PM


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Sep 7, 2006)

Could be either IMHO. Definitely looks wild collected, but why would you represent hangianum as emersonii? I'd think it would be the other way around.

I should get an eBay account so I can be BidSnipedU

Jon
________
Stocks To Buy Now


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## Leo Schordje (Sep 7, 2006)

Come on guys,
As a sometimes good grower who sometimes grows a really bad plant, how the hell can you guys be so confident that it is a jungle collected plant from a photo? Bull Dung. You can not make definitive proclamations from a photo. You are blowing smoke by saying so. That can be a real disservice to a law abiding citizen. Not Fair. You want USFW visiting you because some idiot on a forum thought the picture you posted was wild collect rather than badly grown? I have a Paph esquirolei that got knocked down, and repeatedly stepped on, dragged around, then found a week later. It is so chewed up that it is hard to believe some huge beetle wasn't chewing on it. If it didn't have an AM/AOS I would have thrown it out. It will live, but for the next 5 years I'm certain I'll get idiots who will swear it 'looks collected'. Give that seller a break. 
Also, from what I know of that seller, it could be domestic production, badly grown, there is the outside chance it is wild collected. The seller doesn't have very good facilities for growing where they are at. They mostly bring in product from others, and resell as quickly as possible. They may have been sold domestic plants that were poorly grown. They have been suckered by wholesalers in the past. I know they look for the cheap deal when buying stock, and as a result they have been stung a few times. I could not say for certain. That damage could be mechanical, from leaves getting caught on the edge of a box or a wire mesh bench, or being packed too tight when shipping. Who knows? Without an entomologist examining the plant in person, with a loupe and a reference guide to insect chew marks you can not make a solid judgement. It could be anything, but that seller does try to give you what they promise. So my bet would be that if you bought that plant it will turn out to be a beat up emersonii. Though, I could not say for certain. As I said, it is only a photograph. (besides, I might bid on it on the outside chance it really IS a hangianum. One can never have too many emersonii either). 
Leo


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## Paphman910 (Sep 7, 2006)

What about the folks that grow there Paphs outside year round in the warm states like florida? Their plants may look wild collected sinces the plants are grown outside.

Paphman910


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## SlipperFan (Sep 7, 2006)

I agree with Leo. Actually, I've purchased many plants from Thanh Nguyen, and can say that I have always been more than pleased. He is as honest as they come, and I would have no problem purchasing anything he sells. I know that if something is found to be not what it was said to be, he would refund. I've been communicating with him about this thread, and he said that if it turned out not to be emersonii, he'd buy it back.

He also said that if anyone wants to communicate with him about this, his email address is: [email protected]


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## Heather (Sep 7, 2006)

I bought a plant from Thanh a year ago and just recently he emailed me offering a refund because they are not blooming out as expected. I have to say I have always had nice dealings with him (though that was the only one I have bought, I admit).


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## SlipperFan (Sep 7, 2006)

Thanh has also told me that he purchases plants from Thailand, where they grow their plants outside. He said that his source told him that the plants are certified lab grown plants. Because they are grown outside and because they tend to get "beat up" from travelling that distance, when they first come into the US, they look like they've been wild collected. After he has had and grown them for awhile, they look pretty domesticated. He said that takes about a year.

By the way, the plant I posted in this thread was from Thanh. It has multiple growths, 3 spikes and 6 flowers. I sent it to judging, and it would have gotten an HCC except that I hadn't had it long enough:
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=649&highlight=delenatii+mastersianum


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Sep 7, 2006)

I agree with Leo also. Yes, the photo looks wild collected....but then again, just look at some of my paphs now that they have been out all summer in the elements....after a season indoors with mealies...I have several complex hybrids that beat out that photo in the "wild" look. I have seen some of the paphs that were imported from Malaysia this year, like stoneii...they certainly look wild to me....yet they are nursery grown, as far as I know. I have dealt with Thanh many times, through eBay and privately...he is always honest and fair, and has very high quality plants...some of which are great deals, like my $35 budded Maudiae "The Queen", about to bloom soon. I do think we have to be very careful about what we say publicly about growers and potentially illegal plants. Its one think when the plants appear to be blatantly illegal (Chinesegreen come to mind?)....but if by chance Thanh did end up with a wild collected plant, it would be through accident, not intention....and it would be a shame if he got into trouble for it. Take care, Eric


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## Mycorrhizae (Sep 7, 2006)

SlipperFan said:


> Thanh has also told me that he purchases plants from Thailand, where they grow their plants outside...



This goes a long way to explain the wild-collected appearance.


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## Jmoney (Sep 8, 2006)

SlipperFan said:


> I sent it to judging, and it would have gotten an HCC except that I hadn't had it long enough:
> http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=649&highlight=delenatii+mastersianum



there's a minimum plant possession period to get AOS awards? I thought you could buy a specimen from someone and immediately get yourself a CCM, if so inclined...


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## littlefrog (Sep 8, 2006)

There is absolutely no minimum time you must own a plant in order to receive an American Orchid Society quality award (HCC, AM, or FCC). If you were told that, somebody didn't know the rules. Show rules are different, the show might specify that any plants exhibited be owned for some minimum period of time. But that isn't an AOS rule.

In fact, I have witnessed plants purchased off of the sales tables at shows getting AOS guality awards. We have a judge in our center who is adept at this... I've never managed to do it, myself.

Quality awards you must have owned the plant for at least 6 months (I think it is six months, don't have my handbook).


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## SlipperFan (Sep 8, 2006)

I was told I had to have owned the plant for 6 months before it could be eligible for a cultural award. That's from your judging center, Rob. (Ann Arbor)


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## Mycorrhizae (Sep 8, 2006)

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, the HCC is not a cultural award - it is a quality award. From my understanding, a cultural award would be a CCM or CCE. It sounds like there may have been some confusion at the judging center.

Edit: Pay no attention to my blither. If I had read the entire thread, I would know that Rob already covered this.


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## silence882 (Sep 8, 2006)

littlefrog said:


> There is absolutely no minimum time you must own a plant in order to receive an American Orchid Society quality award (HCC, AM, or FCC). If you were told that, somebody didn't know the rules. Show rules are different, the show might specify that any plants exhibited be owned for some minimum period of time. But that isn't an AOS rule.
> 
> In fact, I have witnessed plants purchased off of the sales tables at shows getting AOS guality awards. We have a judge in our center who is adept at this... I've never managed to do it, myself.
> 
> Quality awards you must have owned the plant for at least 6 months (I think it is six months, don't have my handbook).



I think Rob mistyped in that last sentence and meant 'Culture awards'. He covered the quality awards in the first two paragraphs. In the AOS judging handbook, in order to receive a CCE, CCM, or CHM, it says "The plant must have been in the care of the exhibitor at least six months immediately prior to the award." (p. 44)

--Stephen


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## SlipperFan (Sep 9, 2006)

And I may not have remembered correctly the award they would have given the plant. I do remember that it was given 84 points. And that it would have been a cultural award.


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## Jason Fischer (Sep 10, 2006)

I think there is a guy on ebay named greenpaph? I have seen this person selling hangianum and I can say I'm 99% sure they are jungle collected ONLY because I have seen hundreds upon hundreds of jungle collected hangianum when I was in Japan (asia gets everything first, one way or another). 

It really is a sad mess as natives will almost always drive the plants into extinction because of black market demand. It would be nice to see all countries set up export rules like Peru did with the kovachii in order to somewhat preserve natural habitat. But what do I know, I'm just an orchid grower!


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## kentuckiense (Sep 10, 2006)

Jason Fischer said:


> I think there is a guy on ebay named greenpaph? I have seen this person selling hangianum and I can say I'm 99% sure they are jungle collected ONLY because I have seen hundreds upon hundreds of jungle collected hangianum when I was in Japan (asia gets everything first, one way or another).


ChineseGreen is who you're thinking of, I think.


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## gore42 (Sep 10, 2006)

The seller on Ebay was/is ChineseGreen, not our own Greenpaph!  (ooh, Zach beat me to it)

Kovachii. Hmmmmmmmmmm. Think I'd better leave that topic alone.

- Matthew Gore


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## Mahon (Sep 10, 2006)

There is actually another illegal seller of _Paphiopedilums_ named "Greenpaph"... I believe he is located in Hong Kong, I don't remember.

Not to be confused with the member of this forum... 

-Pat


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