# Abert Einstein did not believe in God



## Berthold (Dec 8, 2018)

Einstein letter auctioned for three million dollars

A handwritten letter from Albert Einstein has been auctioned in New York for a record $ 2.89 million (2.55 million euros). In the letter to the philosopher Eric Gutkind, the famous physicist doubts the existence of God. The auction house Christie's spoke of a record price for a handwritten letter from Einstein.

Einstein states in his 1954 letter written in German that to him the word "God" is nothing but the expression of human weakness. Like all other religions, he also refers to his own Jewish religion as superstition. Most recently, according to Christie's, this letter was sold to a private collector for $ 404,000 in 2008.


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## Hien (Dec 9, 2018)

St. Peter said , 
Lord , what is going on, there is a crazy hair homeless man wandering around for 63 years out there.
the Lord replies,
Oh my Peter, the gate is wide opened but he did not believe his eyes because the address said "the house of God" :rollhappy:

I could think of a better joke,

On the day of auction at the Christie,
2,89 million going once going twice sold to the gentleman in red with 2 sharp bumps on his forehead


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## Happypaphy7 (Dec 9, 2018)

I was at Christie's that day and read the letter.
Of course, religions are man-made and used to control people.


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## ehanes7612 (Dec 9, 2018)

I wonder if there were any orchids up for auction that day ??????


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## Ray (Dec 9, 2018)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Of course, religions are man-made and used to control people.


Yes, there is some of that.

The Hebrew admonitions about what you can- and cannot eat were wise guidance for the time. Are they applicable now in our society? No, in my opinion, but some people take all such stuff literally. If that's the "control" you're referring to, so be it. It's not control at all, in my mind.

I really think that ancient documents like the Bible, Torah, Koran, or whatever, are the documented interpretations of observations or suppositions - from the time they were written. That means that they are outdated, and should be read only as _interpretations_, not as fact.

I am an active member of my Episcopal parish and sing in the choir. However, being an engineer and scientist, I really have a hard time believing that there is an all-powerful being called "God". However, as a keen observer of nature, and for other reasons I won't go into, I have a very hard time believing that there isn't some sort of universal force that has set everything we know in motion. Call it "God", "nature", "the universe", I don't care - it's your personal interpretation.

Nothing exists without there being a reason for it to do so...including you and me. 

There is a force, or energy, or call it what you will, that exists within the physical, chemical and biological makeup of everything that exists. What happens to it when we "die"? Some will say "we go to heaven" (or hell - and you know who I'm referring to...), but I believe that the energy is released back into the "universal pool" of energy and knowledge, to the advantage of the entire universe. Don't forget that matter an energy may be exchanged, but cannot truly be destroyed. That makes me think that our only purpose for existing is to advance that pool somehow; however we are best designed to do so.

For a mountain, it is affected by the climate and is eroded, releasing trapped nutrients into the environment. Bacteria, fungi, and plants receive that and flourish, giving higher forms of life nutrition. They have "learned" from their environments, and have therefore contributed to it, advancing it. We accept nutrition from those forms of life, enabling us to advance it further.

Back to religion for a moment... Look into them in detail. The "root" message in all of them is "love". Yep. That's as controlling as possible. Yes, there are people who want to use the lore to control others, but if you understand the true aspect and not buy into the BS, all is good.

I think a lot of the world could use to consider that.


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## ehanes7612 (Dec 9, 2018)

There is only Bob

JR 'Bob' Dobbs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1Byf9KbWbo


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## Berthold (Dec 10, 2018)

Ray said:


> Yes, there is some of that.
> 
> The Hebrew admonitions about what you can- and cannot eat were wise guidance for the time. Are they applicable now in our society? No, in my opinion, but some people take all such stuff literally. If that's the "control" you're referring to, so be it. It's not control at all, in my mind.
> 
> ...



No, The first half of religious laws is control and maintenance of power, the second half is supposed to ensure social peace in the community and avoid murder and manslaughter.


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## Berthold (Dec 10, 2018)

Happypaphy7 said:


> I was at Christie's that day and read the letter.
> Of course, religions are man-made and used to control people.


What was Your maximum offer for the letter in auction?


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## Ray (Dec 10, 2018)

Berthold said:


> No, The first half of religious laws is control and maintenance of power, the second half is supposed to ensure social peace in the community and avoid murder and manslaughter.





There may be religions that are designed to function that way, and there are some people who subjugate themselves to that, but I believe you are painting with too broad of a brush if you think they're all that way.

Don't you have a mandatory "church tax" in Germany? We don't here. Maybe that explains your belligerent attitude.


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## Berthold (Dec 10, 2018)

Ray said:


> Don't you have a mandatory "church tax" in Germany? We don't here. Maybe that explains your belligerent attitude.



No, we don't have mandatory church tax in Germany.
We had a mandatory church tax 900 years ago when we were still burning witches and when we killed infidels on the Crusades. But this is no longer common in Germany of today.


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## xiphius (Dec 10, 2018)

Berthold said:


> No, we don't have mandatory church tax in Germany.
> We had a mandatory church tax 900 years ago when we were still burning witches and when we killed infidels on the Crusades. But this is no longer common in Germany of today.



Funny. I thought there was a church tax in Germany as well. And a little googling around pulls up a ton of articles just like this one from just a couple years ago (link). The general consensus is that there is a tax if you were baptized (because then you are automatically considered a Christian) unless you "officially" renounce your faith. I am not entirely sure what they mean by "officially" but I am guessing there is some paperwork involved since there is apparently a fee involved with that also.

That said, not knowing the full ins-and-outs of German tax law, there might be some kinda loophole that allows most people to just ignore it anyways. According to a lot of articles though, it is collected automatically out of most people's paychecks.


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## xiphius (Dec 10, 2018)

...and here is another article specifically about how to avoid having to pay the church tax if you are moving to Germany from another country... from just last year... (link)

Perhaps you should take a closer look at your taxes next year Berthold ... (unless you were never baptised or are non-Christian, 'cause then it just wouldn't apply and that might explain why you were unaware of this).


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## Berthold (Dec 10, 2018)

xiphius said:


> .
> Perhaps you should take a closer look at your taxes next year Berthold ... (unless you were never baptised or are non-Christian, 'cause then it just wouldn't apply and that might explain why you were unaware of this).



I have two professionals who have to have a look at my taxes 

I can assure You, there are no church taxes in Germany and I never payed taxes to the church but a lot to the state.
But what You mean could be that the German state collects the membership fee for the Catholic and Evangelical Church in Germany.
That is a special service of the state administration for the two Christian churches in Germany. But for this service a part of my taxes are taken.


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## Berthold (Dec 10, 2018)

Ray said:


> There may be religions that are designed to function that way, and there are some people who subjugate themselves to that, but I believe you are painting with too broad of a brush if you think they're all that way.
> ...



On one point I agree with you.
There are many people who need a God. This God tells them not to kill their neighbor. We call that ethics. 
Albert Einstein and me are not among these people.

But sometimes this God forgets to explain to them that they should not kill the disbelieving neighbor from the side road either. That we call religion.


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## ehanes7612 (Dec 10, 2018)

Berthold said:


> But sometimes this God forgets to explain to them that they should not kill the disbelieving neighbor from the side road either. That we call religion.



That's zealotry ...which is a partition of religion that is mostly fringe, and does rear its ugly head in the face of charisma or when people believe they are being oppressed. 99.999999 % of the time, religion functions to create identity within a community. As an agnostic, I can still understand the need for this , especially before the 20th century. It's not without its problems, group identity along any lines usually creates division and the classification of an other...but its main purpose (religion) has been to create solidarity among a tribe or community. This is why Europe has so many Gothic and Romanesque churches. It requires the resources of that entire community coming together to build such architecture. You can have your cynical reason why these structures were built but it still doesn't belie the nature of their service..as a place of worship and sanctuary from the outside ..a place of respite. When I am in Europe I spend a significant time in these churches. I don't believe in a god either and I am totally on board with Einstein, but I still can recognize the value of a religion.




> There are many people who need a God. This God tells them not to kill their neighbor. We call that ethics.
> Albert Einstein and me are not among these people.



I don't agree with this. I don't believe morality or ethics is a consequence of religion but religion is a consequence of morality and ethics. We did not learn the value of not killing our neighbor from a god..we were engrained with it from the need to support each other and survive. As our communities grew, inclusion grew. The law that you shall not kill is of a punitive nature, a legal need to command an authority for the penalty of murder. It is not designed to be preventative..if there were suddenly no laws , people would not just go out killing suddenly because they had free reign...they would need something to incite them and that really doesn't depend on any law, either way. Ethics are something you learn from your tribe, from the inclusion of familial and community structures, and tend to be UNIVERSAL!!!!!!!!, which underlies a genetic propensity to be moral..people may still call on religious law to enforce ethics but the the main ethical tenants are predominantly guided by these familial and community structures that would exist without religion


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## Berthold (Dec 10, 2018)

ehanes7612 said:


> I don't believe morality or ethics is a consequence of religion but religion is a consequence of morality and ethics.



Ethics is a value of human society which facilitates coexistence.

Religious societies also want to live with less conflicts in the group. Therefore Religion also propagates some of the ethic rules.


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## xiphius (Dec 10, 2018)

Berthold said:


> I have two professionals who have to have a look at my taxes
> 
> I can assure You, there are no church taxes in Germany and I never payed taxes to the church but a lot to the state.
> *But what You mean could be that the German state collects the membership fee for the Catholic and Evangelical Church in Germany.
> That is a special service of the state administration for the two Christian churches in Germany. But for this service a part of my taxes are taken.*



If a portion of your income is compulsorily collected by the state and given to the church as part of a non-optional "membership fee" ... then that is most definitely a "church tax" by any definition. If it makes you feel better to call it something else, then so be it . 

The only way to get out of paying it is to "officially" renounce your faith. Germany is one of a handful of European countries where church and state are intertwined like this. There is nothing like this in the Americas.

In fact, the "Moving to Germany" guide I linked actually advises that if you are moving to Germany and have been baptized, then it is better to officially declare your religion and go through the official process of renouncing it. There have been a couple documented cases (admittedly rare though) of Germany actually coming after foreign expats and trying to make them "prove" that they are not part of a specific church. This is VERY hard to do if you are from a country like the US... since we have no official system in place to declare or renounce church membership. If you wanna go, then you go... if you don't, then you don't. It's your business. It is possible to be a baptized, but non-practicing, member of a Christian church (a status which Germany does not recognize).


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## ehanes7612 (Dec 10, 2018)

Berthold said:


> Ethics is a value of human society which facilitates coexistence.
> 
> Religious societies also want to live with less conflicts in the group. Therefore Religion also propagates some of the ethic rules.



Yes, religious societies are human societies...just because the religion pops up doesnt mean that they lose their previous values...typically, they co-opt those values and give them a different spin but underlying those values is still the root value that preceded all religions


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## ehanes7612 (Dec 10, 2018)

xiphius said:


> If a portion of your income is compulsorily collected by the state and given to the church as part of a non-optional "membership fee" ... then that is most definitely a "church tax" by any definition. If it makes you feel better to call it something else, then so be it .
> 
> The only way to get out of paying it is to "officially" renounce your faith. Germany is one of a handful of European countries where church and state are intertwined like this. There is nothing like this in the Americas.
> 
> In fact, the "Moving to Germany" guide I linked actually advises that if you are moving to Germany and have been baptized, then it is better to officially declare your religion and go through the official process of renouncing it. There have been a couple documented cases (admittedly rare though) of Germany actually coming after foreign expats and trying to make them "prove" that they are not part of a specific church. This is VERY hard to do if you are from a country like the US... since we have no official system in place to declare or renounce church membership. If you wanna go, then you go... if you don't, then you don't. It's your business. It is possible to be a baptized, but non-practicing, member of a Christian church (a status which Germany does not recognize).



It is also possible to be an atheist christian (christian atheist?) in the US...people who identify Christ as a morale and ethical leader but don't recognize the trinity..I often classify myself as such when I am secure in my knowledge that god doesnt exist. I embraced the values of christ's teachings on ethical matters but rejected holy matters and growing up in a the south..my community was christian ..I went to church (and liked it until I was 12) but was one of those kids who often questioned the existence of god (although I have gone back and forth on believing in a western religious type diety, moreso not believing lately)


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## Berthold (Dec 10, 2018)

ehanes7612 said:


> Yes, religious societies are human societies...just because the religion pops up doesnt mean that they lose their previous values...typically, they co-opt those values and give them a different spin but underlying those values is still the root value that preceded all religions



In religious societies some ethic rules are overlaid by other rules.So religious societies have partly different rules and not all general ethic rules are accepted.


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## ehanes7612 (Dec 10, 2018)

Berthold said:


> In religious societies some ethic rules are overlaid by other rules.So religious societies have partly different rules and not all general ethic rules are accepted.



Can you provide an example? because religious texts are extremely complicated and highly articulate. Generally speaking, they cover pretty much every ethical value ever conceived by humans...every religion has issues with coveting, with precedent of God, murder , stealing, adultery , suicide, familial authority , lying, honoring important days...I doubt you can find any ethical value in secular human societies that doesn't have its counterpart in religion...obviously religion adds


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## Hien (Dec 11, 2018)

Berthold said:


> On one point I agree with you.
> There are many people who need a God. This God tells them not to kill their neighbor. We call that ethics.
> Albert Einstein and me are not among these people.
> 
> But sometimes this God forgets to explain to them that they should not kill the disbelieving neighbor from the side road either. That we call religion.


Since you and Einstein know for sure that there is no God,
I would like to pose a few questions to you:
on the inside of things,
-do particles know they are inside a virus?
-do virus know they are inside an ant?
on the outside of things,
-does an ant know that there is a human being out there?
So how do you actually know that you are not a virus inside God, how do you know for certain there is not a God outside of you that you are not capable of observing. Same for Einstein, he can not prove that something is not in existence just because he can not see it, feel it, touch it, aware of it. What he said is pure personal sentiment, neither logical nor scientific, what experiment did he perform to prove that God does not exist? 

-how much awareness do you think we have, even physically, we are not aware of many phenomena beyond our senses, some animals could see things we could not, some of them could hear things we could not.
Everything else we rely on machines to measure for us, to see for us, to hear for us, to tell us certain things exist. Do you think machines can tell you, can prove to you that there is no God?

For me, I conclude that I would not be able to say that there is God, and I would not be able to say that there is no God either. That is the most reasonable conclusion.

And if you think that scientists have all the answers, ask them, what the universe is inside of ? if they tell you it is inside something, ask them what that thing is inside of? they can keep going forever, and like the russian doll 
in reverse to infinitive. Human is so arrogant , thinking his little brain can explain the ultimate . 
Even if Einstein is still alive, he will not be able to tell you anything about it. he would not be able to , what ever he or anyone can come up with is pure bull.... No human brain can solve it.
They say it starts with a big bang, really, what was before it? out of nothing? where does that nothing reside in?


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## ehanes7612 (Dec 11, 2018)

Ohh.. geezus...Skopes trial all over again..Hien is drawing the sword of God.. he's set to smite his enemies..those damn heathens

I find it hilarious that a dead man (Einstein) can cause so much ruckus..


......oh wait


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## Berthold (Dec 11, 2018)

ehanes7612 said:


> ..I doubt you can find any ethical value in secular human societies that doesn't have its counterpart in religion...obviously religion adds



No, religion does not expand but restricts, for example, on the equality of people between the sexes or sexual orientation (Death penalty on homosexuality in Islamic Saudi Arabia or stoning in Iran).
Also check out the rules of scientologists.


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## Berthold (Dec 11, 2018)

Hien said:


> Since you and Einstein know for sure that there is no God,



No, no. no. Stop.

No one knows if there is a god.
Einstein *suspects* there is no god. He can't prove it, of course, and he doesn't want to prove it. So do I.
Einstein sees no reason to accept the existence of a god. So do I.
Einstein doesn't need and seek life support in a religion. So do I.

I would just like to see better support against the Administration of this forum and for better cultivation of some special orchids.




Hien said:


> For me, I conclude that I would not be able to say that there is God, and I would not be able to say that there is no God either. That is the most reasonable conclusion.


Absolute correct.


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## Ray (Dec 11, 2018)

Berthold said:


> No, religion does not expand but restricts, for example, on the equality of people between the sexes or sexual orientation (Death penalty on homosexuality in Islamic Saudi Arabia or stoning in Iran).
> Also check out the rules of scientologists.



I think you are grossly overstepping by cherry-picking bad examples and applying it so broadly.


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## Berthold (Dec 11, 2018)

Ray said:


> I think you are grossly overstepping by cherry-picking bad examples and applying it so broadly.



Ray, I only picked up the biggest cherries, there are a lot more of them. 
But nevertheless, only a single example would be good enough to confirm my statements.


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## Berthold (Dec 11, 2018)

xiphius said:


> The general consensus is that there is a tax if you were baptized (because then you are automatically considered a Christian) unless you "officially" renounce your faith. I am not entirely sure what they mean by "officially" ..



That is the essential difference between tax and membership fee for a club or other association:
The membership fee You can avoid by official revoke Your membership. In most cases, you have to comply with a notice period. That You can do at any time for the membership of the Christians Churches, even without notice period.

I would appreciate very much to revoke my membership in the German state in order to save income tax. Not really, because I like to pay taxes.


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## xiphius (Dec 11, 2018)

Berthold said:


> That is the essential difference between tax and membership fee for a club or other association:
> The membership fee You can avoid by official revoke Your membership.
> 
> I would appreciate very much to revoke my membership in the German state in order to save income tax. Not really, because I like to pay taxes.



Exactly. The only difference is that a membership fee is collected and administered by _a private organization_ for the members. Tax is essentially "membership fees" for a country (as you stated) and is collected by the government. *Since the government collects the fees for the church and manages membership in the church as an organization, it is most definitely a tax...*. If this tax was managed by a church or churches individually, it would be easier to avoid (just don't go to this or that church). The church would also have less of a legal avenue to come after you if you don't pay the fee (the worst a private organization can really do is kick you out for not paying dues...). Having the government manage church membership and collect dues for them inexorably intertwines church and state (to a level that I find a bit unsettling, but then, I am not a very religious person). 

Also, I find the notion of having to pay a church tax just because your parents decided to get you baptized, even if you don't, and have never, attended church to be a bit ridiculous in today's world. Non-practicing Christians have already been discussed above.


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## Berthold (Dec 11, 2018)

xiphius said:


> Exactly. The only difference is that a membership fee is collected and administered by _a private organization_ for the members. Tax is essentially "membership fees" for a country (as you stated) and is collected by the government. *Since the government collects the fees for the church and manages membership in the church as an organization, it is most definitely a tax...*. If this tax was managed by a church or churches individually, it would be easier to avoid (just don't go to this or that church). The church would also have less of a legal avenue to come after you if you don't pay the fee (the worst a private organization can really do is kick you out for not paying dues...). Having the government manage church membership and collect dues for them inexorably intertwines church and state (to a level that I find a bit unsettling, but then, I am not a very religious person).
> 
> Also, I find the notion of having to pay a church tax just because your parents decided to get you baptized, even if you don't, and have never, attended church to be a bit ridiculous in today's world. Non-practicing Christians have already been discussed above.



The Church is similar to a club/association, where you must also officially declare your exit in order to avoid the contribution.
The absence is not enough.

You can explain your church exit to the pastor in his clubhouse.
This paper confirmed by the pastor You send to Your tax office. That's it.
It's not much more difficult than to leave the rifle club.

But the connection between state and church is still far too close in Germany.
Even the word "God" You find in our constitution, luckily not on our banknotes :wink:.


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## Hien (Dec 11, 2018)

ehanes7612 said:


> Ohh.. geezus...Skopes trial all over again..Hien is drawing the sword of God.. he's set to smite his enemies..those damn heathens
> 
> I find it hilarious that a dead man (Einstein) can cause so much ruckus..
> 
> ...



:wink: You know, it is very hard to resist chiming in when Bert posts something, I found the topics that Bert chose fascinating .:wink:
wait, Einstein might not be fully a dead man yet.
In another parallel universe, or other parallel universes , where time runs slower, or much more advance in life extension science, many Einsteins may still be alive , in one of those, he may not even be a scientist, just a garbage man , and never write that letter, and we never have this discussion on the Slippertalk.


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## Berthold (Dec 11, 2018)

Hien said:


> :wink: You know, it is very hard to resist chiming in when Bert posts something, I found the topics that Bert chose fascinating .:wink:





ehanes7612 said:


> Berthold is an expert on religions now..since you know..he was a power utilities engineer..so obvious


(from his deleted post)

Yes, in this forum You will quickly become an expert in all fields, as confirmed by ehanes7612 as well.


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## h_mossy (Dec 11, 2018)

I believe the Einstein said he was not an atheist, but was an agnostic. I'm sure that could be looked up, and either de-bunked or reinforced.


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## Berthold (Dec 12, 2018)

h_mossy said:


> I believe the Einstein said he was not an atheist, but was an agnostic.



He was an agnostic atheist.


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## Happypaphy7 (Dec 12, 2018)

Berthold said:


> No, religion does not expand but restricts, for example, on the equality of people between the sexes or sexual orientation (Death penalty on homosexuality in Islamic Saudi Arabia or stoning in Iran).
> Also check out the rules of scientologists.



I agree.


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## Happypaphy7 (Dec 12, 2018)

Berthold said:


> What was Your maximum offer for the letter in auction?



I went to have a close look at the letter, not to participate in the auction itself.
I knew it would go for a big sum of money.


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## ehanes7612 (Dec 12, 2018)

Berthold said:


> No, religion does not expand but restricts, for example, on the equality of people between the sexes or sexual orientation (Death penalty on homosexuality in Islamic Saudi Arabia or stoning in Iran).
> Also check out the rules of scientologists.



I did not say "EXPAND". You should learn to ask questions about language idiosyncracies or at least look at the word in the context of the statement, but even so..German is complicated enough not to pigeon hole words into singular meanings, so you should know better (unless you want to be thought of as closed minded) ... I said ..'add'.. meaning, Religion 'ADDS' more rules...which is what you do when you 'RESTRICT"


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## cnycharles (Dec 12, 2018)

Fascinating discussion, and very well-behaved; im impressed! This is a great exchange

From historical things Id seen over time, it seemed like Einstein was relatively agnostic. Using English terms to describe levels of religious faith can be dicey, especially when people who marginally use it or you have different countries the variations of English are coming from. 

The word atheist from Greek I had heard was used more from people whose mindset was that they believed firmly that there was no God, or in the back of their mind they knew there was God but they had decided to stick out their lower lip, cross their arms and *not believe* in the form of turning their back and spiritually turning away purposely with desires of rejection. 

Agnostic from what I&rsquo;d gathered from people who had called themselves such, were on the fence not really knowing, not rejecting, just being of the mind that if there were proof someday they could follow or acknowledge the existence, not much emotion or angst either way. In my small and humble opinion a good number of very vocal atheists had had a life event which made them angry or resentful of what they knew as God and had pronounceable turned and rejected. Im sure there are many others who feel science shows fully to them that testing hasnt shown a god so its not possible for Him to exist. 

A few here have made good points about how do you prove or disprove existence of something that would expectedly be so much bigger than we are; modern science shows clearly that at certain physical states of higher or lower gravity, temperature, pressure and etcetera, the laws of physics and all seem to change. We strain to see and understand our internal and external world by our faint senses, equipment and mental processes... it has been my thought that our universe which we see and interpret as having been around for billions or googleplex oodles of years, could very well be the swirl of gases and sparks in the initially forming edge of a flame, on top of a match that God has struck to light his pipe  . If how atoms and particles interact and things form changed by when an action or reaction process point has progressed, we could have trillions of lifetimes in the span of another existence just barely having started. We would never be able to measure. Science is just us scratching around trying to find appropriate yardsticks with which to try and make sense of what we have just barely begun to realize exists around us. For people to make such huge statements and pronouncements of what is or isnt, really is them making their own religion to prove there isnt a God, and wanting to fend off the others who say that there is One


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ehanes7612 (Dec 12, 2018)

cnycharles said:


> Fascinating discussion, and very well-behaved; im impressed! This is a great exchange
> 
> From historical things Id seen over time, it seemed like Einstein was relatively agnostic. Using English terms to describe levels of religious faith can be dicey, especially when people who marginally use it or you have different countries the variations of English are coming from.
> 
> ...



Yep, people are complicated and self contradictory...often on the fence about deep philosophical issues..which, depending on where the pendulum swings, they may 'know' there is no god one day (when they are feeling cynical about the world for example) and maybe the next day they proclaim they dont know but dont believe


You made a very clear point about the distinction of our understanding of physics depending on the parameters involved. So often what the general public hears about science is filtered through media...which has its own agenda. As a student in physics..I have yet to see anyone express obstination about theoretical models without stating the preponderance of evidence. Often what is said about theoretical challenges is "then show me the evidence". 

I have seen exchanges between noted scientists (in history) stick to their guns with what they believe ..getting into these ego battles of will..but these tend to be more about personality clashes among professionals. Physics rarely intersects with the general population in any meaningful way..and when it does (as in the case of special relativity)...much of it is strewed about by the media ..perhaps to create drama and red herrings...but in the end scientists are only human also..and susceptible to the same egotistical defenses that everyone on this board suffers from


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## h_mossy (Dec 12, 2018)

Heard the one about the dyslexic agnostic insomniac? 

He used to lay awake at night wondering if there really was a dog.


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## ehanes7612 (Dec 12, 2018)

h_mossy said:


> Heard the one about the dyslexic agnostic insomniac?
> 
> He used to lay awake at night wondering if there really was a dog.



good one


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## Berthold (Dec 13, 2018)

As clarification for a common discussion base:

1. An atheist does not believe in the existence of a god *or* denies the existence of a god.

2. An agnostic claims that neither the existence nor the non-existence of a god can be proven

3. The correctness of rule or law of nature cannot be proven.
Only falsehood can be proven.
Natural science doesn't know absolute truth like mathematics.
So nobody can absolutely deny the existence of a god. 

So Albert Einstein is an agnostic atheist.
Einstein said God doesn't dice.
But by that, he meant there are no real coincidences in the world.
Unfortunately, he was probably wrong about it.


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## ehanes7612 (Dec 16, 2018)

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/10...where-did-the-universe-come-from-intermediate


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## ehanes7612 (Dec 25, 2018)

this is something I believe wholeheartedly. I have friends that are mystics, astrologers, christians and the sort...I think NGT sums it up beautifully how I approach these topics, especially loaded terms like 'truth' , 'atheist' , 'faith' etc. It's a great podcast in its entirety but for my point, listen from 47 minutes to 52 minutes


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGc4mg5pul4


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## Berthold (Dec 27, 2018)

ehanes7612 said:


> this is something I believe wholeheartedly. I have friends that are mystics, astrologers, christians and the sort...I think NGT sums it up beautifully how I approach these topics, especially loaded terms like 'truth' , 'atheist' , 'faith' etc. It's a great podcast in its entirety but for my point, listen from 47 minutes to 52 minutes
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGc4mg5pul4



Philosophic basics


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## StreetVariety (Dec 27, 2018)

There's no difference between the state and religion. They are both platonic functions that decide the "right" think and "wrong" think for people. Some people just like to be ruled, especially when they don't understand their slave morality.


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## StreetVariety (Dec 27, 2018)

Also, the truth? Go ahead and throw away your life chasing after something that can't be found.


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## Berthold (Dec 27, 2018)

StreetVariety said:


> Also, the truth? Go ahead and throw away your life chasing after something that can't be found.


Yes, some religions promote this way to get better control and influence on people


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