# Paph roth. Mt. Milais



## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Dec 5, 2007)

I know that Mt. Milais is awarded and is used alot in breeding. What I don't know is what it is known for? Example? is it know for blooming on small growths (18 inch leaf span or smaller) Is it know mostly for color or shape? Naturally it was awarded so it is a good flower. When they breed with it what are the breeders looking for? Possible blooming on a single growth?

Thanks


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## paphioland (Dec 5, 2007)

Bob in Albany said:


> I know that Mt. Milais is awarded and is used alot in breeding. What I don't know is what it is known for? Example? is it know for blooming on small growths (18 inch leaf span or smaller) Is it know mostly for color or shape? Naturally it was awarded so it is a good flower. When they breed with it what are the breeders looking for? Possible blooming on a single growth?
> 
> Thanks



It had excellent shape and color for a collected roth. It imparts those traits as well.. It was not a large roth flower wise however. Hence the logical cross with rex. An added benefit is the compact size which doesn't always come through in the crosses esp with rex


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## Ron-NY (Dec 5, 2007)

plus it is my understanding that it isn't a reluctant bloomer and passes this on to it's progeny.


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## Leo Schordje (Dec 5, 2007)

LienLiu did a nice paper on rothschildianum, maybe he has his data handy. I am working from memory, perhaps Lien will correct me if I am wrong. 

rothschildianum "Mont Milais' FCC/RHS was exhibited by the Eric Young Orchid foundation. It was a large flower, on a large plant, the flower was over 30 cm natural spread. Not small. The plant is not small either. It is famous for it's good size, and BOLD color contrast. Its background is fairly light, close to white and the stripes are deep red-brown. So the visual effect is quite bold. Many roths have a base color that is almost yellow, so the stripes don't pop as much visually. The other thing that really made Mount Milais famous was its owner, EYOF. They knew how to put the plant to good use, and promoted it. They also shared pollen with W. Robert Weltz and with Terry Root and Wharton Sincler. Hence the cross "Rex' x 'Mont Milais'. Rex was the very large collected rothschildianum that belonged to Rex van Delden (at one time Paph breeder at Stewarts Orchids) before he sold it to Orchid Zone. 

'Mont Milais' is the clone of choice for a roth with bold colors, good form, large flower and medium large plant habit. Definitely one of the best of the era. 

'Borneo' is the clone of rothschildianum that blooms on a small plant, often with just a single flower. 'Borneo' was awarded with a 28 cm flower, which is on the medium - small side for current awards. Colors of markings are very dark, over a butter yellow backgound, so the striping can look almost muddy. A blooming on a multigrowth plant will have 3 or 4 blooms. A good roth, but the new seedlings coming up will be so much better.

'Rex' is one of the most vigorous of the roths, and large too. These traits are passed on to its offspring. 

'Janet' is the clone from Lee & Janet Kuhn, a collected plant originally exhibited as Paph elliotianum. This is a very vigorous clone, with a large flower, ~30 cm natural spread, but the petals and dorsal are a little bit narrow. This plant could have become as famous as 'Rex' but was not 'promoted' nor used in breeding as expertly. Then in the mid 1990's an unscrupulous varmint sold divisions of a mediocre roth; deliberately mis-labeled as 'Janet'. So there are a few real divisions floating around, and many more 'fakes' floating around. 

Today IMHO the best roths for the 2010 to 2020 generation will be from several of the seedling crosses made by Sam Tsui of the Orchid Inn. 

now I need to get back to work.


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## paphioland (Dec 5, 2007)

Leo Schordje said:


> LienLiu did a nice paper on rothschildianum, maybe he has his data handy. I am working from memory, perhaps Lien will correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> rothschildianum "Mont Milais' RCC/RHS was exhibited by the Eric Young Orchid foundation. It was a large flower, on a large plant, the flower was over 30 cm natural spread. Not small. The plant is not small either. It is famous for it's good size, and BOLD color contrast. Its background is fairly light, close to white and the stripes are deep red-brown. So the visual effect is quite bold. Many roths have a base color that is almost yellow, so the stripes don't pop as much visually. The other thing that really made Mount Milais famous was its owner, EYOF. They knew how to put the plant to good use, and promoted it. They also shared pollen with W. Robert Weltz and with Terry Root and Wharton Sincler. Hence the cross "Rex' x 'Mont Milais'. Rex was the very large collected rothschildianum that belonged to Rex van Delden (at one time Paph breeder at Stewarts Orchids) before he sold it to Orchid Zone.
> 
> ...


 
I would not consider mm a large flower by any means. It was awarded with a 26 cm NS, 5.5 cm dorsal and 1.5 cm petals. It more commonly blooms around 24cm ns. I have never heard of a large selfing of it either. It is rex that gives rex x mm its size. The only awarded mm x self is a mistake, it is actually rex x mm.

Who will have the best roth crosses? There will be many of them coming from all over. Including the TON and OZ. Sam does not have the level of rex x mm that Terry used in his crosses, I can almost guarantee that. He does however have some nice crosses using some of the TON roths as parents. Lots of private collectors are making great crosses as well. Since you mentioned it, Lien has made some nice crosses. Lien and I also made some nice crosses together and made some by myself. I would not limit where the great crosses are going to come from to the OI exclusively. There are personally many other roth crosses I'd rather have , not to take anything away from the OI they also have nice crosses it just is not exclusive.


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## charlie c (Dec 5, 2007)

Please pardon my ignorance; TON ??

charlie c


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## paphioland (Dec 5, 2007)

charlie c said:


> Please pardon my ignorance; TON ??
> 
> charlie c



Manchan's tokyo Orchid nursery.


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## charlie c (Dec 5, 2007)

Thank you.

charlie c


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## paphioland (Dec 5, 2007)

Terry and Sincler were partners at the time. They did not have pollen they had a division of the plant and used the pollen many times to remake the cross. The OZ then sold their division later on.


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## Leo Schordje (Dec 6, 2007)

Thanks. Paphioland, I was working from memory, so I will accept your comments on Mont Milais. As to Orchid Inn, I admit, I have a bias in favor of Sam Tsui. I also have personally visited his greenhouse several times over the years and have seen his rothschildianums. I was truely impressed by his stock. You are correct that there are many private growers making great crosses, and the OZ too. I knew Lien was doing some breeding. I was mostly pointing out that Terry Root and the OZ does not have the 'exclusive lock' on high quality rothschildianum in the USA. I am looking forward to see what these next generations of crosses will bring.


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## NYEric (Dec 6, 2007)

Leo Schordje said:


> I am working from memory, perhaps Lien will correct me if I am wrong.



I have him trapped in the g/h, he won't be correcting anything!! :evil:


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## paphlady (Dec 6, 2007)

So Leo, have you ever visited OZ, TON, and many the other people's nurseries and seen their roths in bloom?


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## berrywoodson (Feb 6, 2008)

Frank Smith had an awesome one in his exhibit at the WOC. I understand that it is a MM selfing.


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## paphioland (Feb 6, 2008)

No it is not. It is Rex x MM.


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## paphiness (Feb 6, 2008)

Both roth 'Atticus' and 'Jim Krull' were on display, and both plants are from the Orchid Zone's Rex x MM cross.

Also, the huge top prize-winning Michael Koopowitz at the K-S exhibit was from the Orchid Zone. 

The besseae's under the bridge at the exhibit, and the one that received the best species plant award, were from OZ.


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## paphioland (Feb 6, 2008)

paphiness said:


> Both roth 'Atticus' and 'Jim Krull' were on display, and both plants are from the Orchid Zone's Rex x MM cross.
> 
> Also, the huge Michael Koopowitz at the K-S exhibit was from the Orchid Zone.
> 
> The besseae's under the bridge at the exhibit, and the one that received the best species plant award, were from OZ.



The St Swithin is also from the OZ

Roth Frank Smith that is listed as mm x self by the aos is a mistake. It is rex x mm.


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## paphioland (Feb 6, 2008)

I don't know the backround of the backround of Krull's color magic?


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## paphioland (Feb 6, 2008)

Man Frank Grows some crazy multiflorals though. He is an awesome grower obviously. Those plants wouldn't look that good bloomed by someone else. They would still be great though. He pushes those multis to the max of their potential.


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## paphioland (Feb 6, 2008)

Hi Dean


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## paphiness (Feb 7, 2008)

I totally agree that Frank Smith is an amazing grower of multifloral orchids (and pretty much everything else).

Actually, I think this touches on the age-old nature vs. nurture question. Rothschildianum breeding and growing is a great example. 

There are clearly particular cultivars that possess superior form, color, and size. Breeders hope that these stud plants will pass their superior traits on to their progeny. That's the nature side of the equation.

On the other side is the nurture, or skill of the grower. I'm sure I could take a top OZ or TON roth worth many thousands of dollars, and grow it so that it looks like it's a $50 plant. I would venture that many of us could accomplish that horticultural feat quite easily. But, very few grow with the skill of Krull-Smith or the Orchid Zone.

So to see the best roths (or the result of any breeding), you've got to go to a place with the top genes, and a wide number of plants in bloom from a good year of growing/watering to see the limits of what is possible.


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## paphioland (Feb 7, 2008)

I see your point but I suprised as a geneticist you may take the nurture too far. LOL. I am not an amazing grower or anything. At this moment in my life I don't have the time to be. I don't always repot when I should. I don't always adjust the shade cloth when it should be. I don't supplement with lights when the days get shorter. I don't have multiple greenhouses so I can have three seperate conditions to grow my plants in. I can say this however. I have yet to rebloom an OZ plant and have it be sig worse than it was the first time. Sometimes the same, sometimes better. I am sure that if it was a multi and Frank grew down in Florida it would bloom better than I could. I am sure that if it were a complex or almost anything else and Terry grew it, the flower would be better than I could. Much of my stuff from the OZ are first bloomm seedlings bought in bloom. As the plant gets more mature the flowers get better. If your growing conditions are not ideal for the plant the flower may stay the same.

Obviously if you wanted you could make culture or environment the ulitmate factor. Like if you don't water for a month, most of your plants will die (some may survive due to genetics). Or stop fertilizing all together with RO water, your plants will slowly die or have serious issues. Stop giving them light, have no air movement etc etc. 

As long as you do things 75% right genetics are very important in flower quality. So for most people on this forum I would say genetics of the flower are more important. Culture is also still very important but as long as it is decent, not as much as some think.

Look at how many complexes have to be bloomed to get great ones, even at the OZ where the conditions are ideal. Hundreds to thousands?? Depending on the cross.

I guess what I am saying is that under extreme environmental conditions genetics can always be trumped. Genetics is always stuggling to keep up with relatively minor changes in environment though out the history of life. However, under somewhat stable conditions genetics creates most of the variability, if this weren't true there would be no life at all.


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## OrchidFrank (Feb 7, 2008)

Well, Ken is right about the roth Frank Smith. but the St Swithin 'Crystelle ' FCC is my remake tht I made in the late 80's that has receiver many awards over the years including another FCC on a plant owned by Charles Alford. Also the Michael Koopowitz 'KS AM/AOS GM/19/WOC that was the WOC Grand Champion is from my cross that receiver an AQ several years ago. We flowered several hundred of these in the mid 90's and saved about 50 of each cross to grow on and see their potential. I think that I had 8 of these MK's in the WOC Exhibit. Also, I would like to thank all of you for the kind comments about our exhibit and plants. We worked very hard so that all of you could enjoy our plants and your trip to the WOC.


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## paphioland (Feb 7, 2008)

Hello Frank. Thanks for the clarification.  You are prob the best multifloral grower in the world. Your lowii's are to die for as well. 

Your display was amazing from the pics. Also you were flat out robbed at the WOC from what I have heard and seen. Politics is a *****. I am sorry you worked so hard and weren't recognized as you should have been. I think the knowledgable people in the world know you won best display though.

I have heard you do have MM x self plants. I don't know if this is true but if it is do you find them to be less vigorous? I find mine to be.


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## paphioland (Feb 7, 2008)

Frank what is the backround on Krull's color magic? I am curious because it looks a little different than most rex x mm? It might be I can't tell from the pics. Can you help me out?


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## OrchidFrank (Feb 7, 2008)

Hello Ken, I do have a couple hunred MM x self and don't see them to be that slow. I have made a couple dozen sibs and out crosses with the plants I got from Terry, MM, Excelsor, Admiral, and several other selected roths to see if we can get these to flower any faster. Plants like MM Admiral and a few of the other jungle plants are a little slower to flower but the seelings from Crystelle grows like weeds. As you know the hybrid I made of Roth Crystelle and Double Trix(another plant from OZ) flowered 2 years out of flask. I had one of these get 97 pts(FCC) last weekend. I have several seedlings of roth Crystelle x roth 'KS' FCC in spike now only 4 years out of flask. I think it is all up to the individual roth on how fast the seedlings are.


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## paphioland (Feb 7, 2008)

thanks for the info. Yeah I guess you are the wrong person to ask about mm x self since you grow all multis like weeds. LOL. Have you seen any extraordinary flowers from mm x self? I would imagine if you outcrossed a good one you would get the vigor back and could make some great roths.

I have one more question. What is your opinion on the "real mm" and the "other mm" clones that people say were passed of as MM dishonestly by a worker at EYOF. Is this true? It is all lore to me and I would love to know your take on it. To me the one used by the OZ is the one I value just because it made the great rex x mm.


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## paphioland (Feb 7, 2008)

congrats on the high fcc. That is a great cross and I really like that direction of breeding, keep up the good work!


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## berrywoodson (Feb 7, 2008)

Is roth.'Crystelle' from the 'MM' x 'Rex' cross or 'MM' x Self one ?


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## paphioland (Feb 7, 2008)

rex x mm

There are no AOS awarded mm x self clones. Crystelle is a gorgeous roth.


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## OrchidFrank (Feb 7, 2008)

Crystelle is MM x Rex from OZ. I no nothing about another MM (other) I also got an FCC of 95 points on lowii 'Frank Smith last week. It is really amazing. I wish everyone could see it. You should plan to come down in November for the Int. Paph Sym. We always have a good time.


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## berrywoodson (Feb 7, 2008)

Frank:

How do you get your roths. to bloom so early ?


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## paphioland (Feb 7, 2008)

OrchidFrank said:


> Crystelle is MM x Rex from OZ. I no nothing about another MM (other) I also got an FCC of 95 points on lowii 'Frank Smith last week. It is really amazing. I wish everyone could see it. You should plan to come down in November for the Int. Paph Sym. We always have a good time.



That is not suprising with your Lowii LOL. Congrats.

I don't know about the other mm either. There are all these crazy stories being passed around that the rhs one is not the aos one and so on. I was hoping you might be able to clarify all these stories. Oh well. What was the ns on your amazing Lowii? Maybe I will come down for that thanks for the info.


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Feb 9, 2008)

Frank, you know I'll back down in Florida this Nov. for the Int. Paph. Sym. I wouldn't miss it for the world. You other forum members need to start saving your money for such a great event.


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## e-spice (Feb 15, 2008)

paphioland said:


> Hello Frank. Thanks for the clarification.  You are prob the best multifloral grower in the world.



After seeing how every plant in the Krull-Smith display was so ridiculously well grown I don't think that I would limit Frank to being the best multifloral paph grower in the world. In my humble opinion he may be the best grower in the world, period! Everything in the display appeared to have near perfect culture. Lots of the displays were great but this one stood out to me and everyone I talked to as the best of all by far.

e-spice


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