# General Beginner Neofinetia Questions



## Papaholic (Feb 11, 2010)

Greetings members!
This is officially my first forum posting and go figure it's not even a question about Paphs [ my first passion] but rather Neofinetias.

I purchased my first Neos and then several thoughts occurred to me afterwards. Hence, my questions here, since I am still learning the ropes with them.

1) Do Neofinetias lose their bottom leaves as they throw out new ones (the same way Paphs do)?
2) I purchased a Seikai ( or alternate spelling Sekai) on ebay for a steal and know they were small but what would exactly constitute a full sized mature growth leaf-span be?
mine is probably a whopping 1" main growth with a small baby growth to the side.
3) Are there average leaf spans for various Neofinetia varieties that can be used as a benchmark to determine when they are considered blooming sized? For example, I know that when my Prince Edward of York hits 26-28" LS it can throw that 2nd growth (which I am waiting for) at any time and be "blooming sized".
What would be considered as such (Leaf Spans) for Benisuzume, Koukakuden, Seikai, and Shutennou? These are of course the ones I now own.
Last question, once a small growth is spotted emerging from a larger growth or at the base of one, does it take about a year to mature like paphs or longer?
Any additional tid-bits of information fellow forum members may have in the way of Neofinetias would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks fellow members for entertaining my long winded questions.
Papaholic


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## SlipperFan (Feb 11, 2010)

Where are you, lanmark??? 

Mark is an excellent Neo grower. I'm sure he can help you with this, as can Jason Fischer.


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## Lanmark (Feb 11, 2010)

Welcome Papaholic!  (HaHA :rollhappy: Hi Dot! I was typing  )

1) Yes many Neos do lose their bottom leaves as they continue to grow. It is not a strict ratio of "gain one on top, lose one on the bottom" but leaf attrition from the bottom up does occur as the plant grows. That being said, some bean leaf cultivars are especially noted and coveted for their ability to hold onto their leaves for extraordinarily long periods of time. This results in tall plants fully clothed in leaves from top to bottom.

2) Seikai doesn't get big. I don't think I've ever seen one with a leafspan of more than 2 inches in width. One to two inches would be considered a mature sized leafspan for Seikai. Variations in culture and growing environment can affect the leaf size somewhat. Seikai can form relatively large clumps, but the leafspan of each growth or fan always remains small. This link shows a Seikai in bloom with what appears to be one main mature growth and a half-grown keiki. http://www.orchidweb.com/OrchidOfWeek.aspx?id=1192 Seikai is a shy bloomer. I can't honestly say when your plant might bloom. It could be later this summer, or it might not happen until five years from now.

3) Yes, different varieties or cultivars of Neos have different sizes and growth habits. Each is unique. Shutenno's leaves are generally curved or reflexed somewhat, and a typical leafspan would be around 5 or 6 inches. Benisuzume is a somewhat smaller variety with leafspans of around perhaps 3 inches per growth. Koukakouden would be typically 7 or 8 inches in leafspan when mature. Most all Neofinetia falcata varieties tend to form clumps. A better measure of maturity, viability, and willingness to bloom would be to look at the size of the overall clump. The more mature individual plants within a clump, the more success you will have. That's not to say that buying small starter plants is a bad thing because certainly they are far more affordable, but you should be prepared for only a few flowers for the first few years until the plants have increased in size and numbers within each clump.

Your babies or keikis at the base of your Neos will generally take longer than a year to mature. Two, three, four? A lot of it depends on the variety and your growing conditions.

Good luck! Neos are my obsession!


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## Papaholic (Feb 11, 2010)

Wow, thanks for the quick reply, and more so, for the informative answers. I will take advantage and ask you if you care to divulge this information openly; what is your favorite neofinetia(s)?
any particular color groups you like? 
I guess I might as well follow up with a last question I'm sure you (Lanmark) know the answer to.
What would be considered some of the rarest forms? I see and read of prices ranging from a few hundred to thousands. This question is more for curiosity than for making a purchase ( the majority of folks like myself are of course on limited budgets). The whole reason I myself have made the purchases are because of the specific color and type of bloom my plants will give and the principal reason: their fragrance ( which I have yet to experience).
thanks again for the kind reply.
Papaholic


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## smartie2000 (Feb 11, 2010)

I think, but I'm not 100% sure, the rarest forms have golden white leaves....I don't think they are easy to keep, and don't bloom well. More of a collectable orchid


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## Lanmark (Feb 12, 2010)

You're very welcome, Papaholic. I'm glad to help. I don't know much about Slippers, to be honest, so this is my chance to shine just a little bit. 

Yellow is my favorite color in flowers overall, but in Neos I prefer plants having flowers of pink or white because they are the pure species. The yellow flowered forms, while awesome, are most likely hybrids which were then bred back to the pure species for one or more generations to achieve a more natural appearance. Certainly they are a work of art, but they don't quite make my list of absolute favorites. Their scent isn't quite the same either.

My favorite Neo? Hmmm...I've thought about it but find I can't choose just one. I've narrowed it down to these , and here's why.

Kyokko - This is a pink flowered form which arose from Shutenno. I don't know if it originated as a mutation or from a seedling, but my best guess is that it began as a seedling. The plant is a little more petite than Shutenno and the leaves are shorter and a bit less curved but just as wide or wider than Shutenno's and very dark green in color. The flowers are more saturated in color than Shutenno's and have a little more substance but a shorter spur. It grows and blooms well and presents very nicely. I just like how it looks.

Ootakamaru - This is a slightly larger bean leaf type having white flowers touched with pink. Superb fragrance and frequent bloom cycles make this variety an outstanding performer for me.

Houmeiden - This is what is known as a tiger stripe variety, but it is different than most tiger stripe plants. The topmost leaf always comes out a creamy snow white in color at its base and darkens as it ages. Root tips are hot pink. Flowers are standard white with a touch of pink, and the plant overall is medium-smallish in size with wide leaves. Simply a gorgeous plant!

Manazuru - This plant has awesome marginal stripes of blue-green on the leaves with shades of yellow and cream in the centers. A ruby blush graces the central stem. I guess if I had to choose a favorite it would be this one. It's gorgeous in or out of bloom. Flowers are standard white with little touches of pink here and there.

Manjyushage - Each white flower has three spurs which curve forward making making it look like an alien spider reaching out to grab you. Root tips are hot pink. Spectacular!

Unkai - Narrow bean leaf type with ocean wave tsuke, pinkish white flowers shaped like those of Seikai but much easier to bloom. What's not to like?!

I think the rarest and most expensive forms are mostly of the variegated bean-leaf types. I see one online right now for sale at $1500. It's a single-growth plant with a 1 inch leafspan, marginal stripe green and yellow variegation. Ryokuhou-No-Shima. That's a pretty good price.


:clap:

*Edit:* Fren may be correct as to the rarest forms having golden white leaves. Recently I've seen some amazing-looking plants with creamy yellowish-white and pink leaves which are barely touched with green in a few places. Probably the most expensive Neos ever sold would be the variegated Seikai plants. Very few exist and they command very high prices. I think it's really exciting to see all the new forms coming out these days. I wish I had access to them all, but often it takes years before they become commercially available. The prices can be prohibitive at first but eventually they drop to more affordable levels. I have an extensive wish list.


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## smartie2000 (Feb 12, 2010)

Thanks for the suggestions Lanmark. 

I might consider getting a pink one. I see that Benisuzume and Shu Ten Nou are availble in Canada. And also Awa Hari Beni that is slightly pink.(I had a Shutennou but it died on me...not so vigorous for me. small plant that got sick)

I also suggest gettting a bigger plant. They grow much faster as they are already established. I know tha it will cost more money though!
My normal neo clump is now growing and dividing itself!


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## Lanmark (Feb 12, 2010)

smartie2000 said:


> Thanks for the suggestions Lanmark.
> 
> I might consider getting a pink one. I see that Benisuzume and Shu Ten Nou are availble in Canada. And also Awa Hari Beni that is slightly pink.(I had a Shutennou but it died on me...not so vigorous for me. small plant that got sick)
> 
> ...





My Shu Ten Nou (there are four or five ways to spell it in English, I swear ) is quite vigorous, but it _is_ large and I've had it a very long time. Shoujou is nicely pink and vigorous too. It's very similar to Shu Ten Nou. I gave big chunks of both of these to Dot less than a year ago so I hope they will do well for her also. I don't like Benisuzume as much, but it's just my personal taste. It seems a little less showy to me.

Do you enjoy the fragrance of your Neo blossoms, Fren? I often bring a plant into my bedroom at night when in bloom. One thing I've noticed is that indoors at night the scent is present but somewhat muted. Place it next to an open window, however, or take it outside and almost instantly the plant seems to recognize the more naturally buoyant air and pours out a massive blast of fragrance. :drool:


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## KyushuCalanthe (Feb 12, 2010)

The only other thing I would add about these plants is that they like a good seasonal shift. Come winter cool them down quite a bit, perhaps the 50's is perfect, but they can take right down to freezing. Also back off on the water in winter, but don't truly dry them out or you'll lose flower stalks that are resting. In spring (April) increase warmth and water. Begin to fertilize them too. In June and July don't be afraid to water them with abandon since this is the natural monsoon season. The best temperatures are in the mid 80's in summer, but they can take higher. Come fall (November) start preparing them for winter by backing off on watering and fertilizer as the temperature cools. Humidity should remain high - no less than 60% year round.

Seikai is an oddball in many respects, but one of the best in my opinion. Watch your plant carefully though since these are subject to rot, a thing not typical of most varieties. You'd laugh at some of the most expensive ones - you'd wonder why they command such a high price. Usually it isn't so much about a nice appearance as it is about rarity. My favorites are the oddball flowers with extra parts, etc. Benikanzashi comes to mind and Manjyushage.


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## Clark (Feb 12, 2010)

Lanmark said:


> I see one online right now for sale at $1500. It's a single-growth plant with a 1 inch leafspan, marginal stripe green and yellow variegation. Ryokuhou-No-Shima. That's a pretty good price.



If this is same seller we used from California, caution on shipping with this vendor, he/she will ship on Thursday and Friday, which means my plants sat in a icebox warehouse over weekend. Have feeling one is not going to make it. This was after -Please don't ship till Monday.
Don't pay till Saturday afternoon. Warm weather folks- no worries.


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## Lanmark (Feb 12, 2010)

Clark said:


> If this is same seller we used from California, caution on shipping with this vendor, he/she will ship on Thursday and Friday, which means my plants sat in a icebox warehouse over weekend. Have feeling one is not going to make it. This was after -Please don't ship till Monday.
> Don't pay till Saturday afternoon. Warm weather folks- no worries.



Yes, agreed. They have done the same thing to me as well. Don't pay until you are ready for them to ship, and if you live in cold area, it is safest to wait until warm weather has arrived. Fortunately, none of my plants have ever suffered damage, but I had to go through the learning curve the stressful way. They ship at will, not at request. I think it is a language barrier more than anything. Another word of caution: "Heat Pack" is NOT a heat pack. It's foam insulation and nothing more. oke: Otherwise, this is a pretty good vendor. How awesome it would be if they could adjust and make corrections regarding these two issues!


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## Clark (Feb 12, 2010)

Lanmark said:


> Otherwise, this is a pretty good vendor. How awesome it would be if they could adjust and make corrections regarding these two issues!



So true! Everything else about previous transactions- all good!

Mark- only bought from ebay site, and have not seen plants for sale there in last 2weeks, which is the last time we bid. For a bit, it seemed it was weekly auction- Have you noticed breaks in offers before? The plants on home site are somewhat out of my budget. Thanks.


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## Lanmark (Feb 12, 2010)

Clark said:


> So true! Everything else about previous transactions- all good!
> 
> Mark- only bought from ebay site, and have not seen plants for sale there in last 2weeks, which is the last time we bid. For a bit, it seemed it was weekly auction- Have you noticed breaks in offers before? The plants on home site are somewhat out of my budget. Thanks.



Yes, there have been breaks in offers before. I've no doubt they'll be back in a week or two or three.  You probably already know Jason Fischer and Glenn Lehr both offer Neos for sale, too, but their prices might be out of your range as well. Most of my plants have come from Glenn, some from Jason, some from Satomi, plus a few from other sources.

I'd advise quarantining any new Neofinetia acquisitions from the rest of your collection until you are absolutely certain there are no mealybugs, scale, mites or other pests present on your new plants. Eradicating these pests from one or two plants is soooo much easier than from a hundred plants.  :rollhappy:

Also, I do have some very nice yellow-flowered Neo plants in my collection which I adore, but I believe most of the yellow-flowered varieties I own are the results of hybridization with Ascocentrum followed by backcrosses to the pure N. falcata species to achieve the end results.

'Zuiun' has flowers which open creamy pale yellow, changing to white. It's likely that 'Zuiun' is a plant of the true Neofinetia falcata species and not a hybrid. 'Koukan' or 'Oukan' -- (I'm not sure if these are two different varieties or simply two different English spellings for a single variety. I know this plant as 'Koukan' but I've seen Jason refer to a plant called 'Oukan' in this same context) -- is a very beautiful plant in my opinion. Some say it is the true unadulterated species, others say it is a hybrid. Its buds are very yellow.


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## Linh (Feb 12, 2010)

Papaholic said:


> What would be considered some of the rarest forms? I see and read of prices ranging from a few hundred to thousands. This question is more for curiosity than for making a purchase ( the majority of folks like myself are of course on limited budgets).Papaholic


I was told this one is in the 5 digit price range. I don't have this one; it's just a picture from my 2010 Neo calendar from OL.








Clark said:


> only bought from ebay site, and have not seen plants for sale there in last 2weeks


If anyone wants to know, here is a link to Satomi's current inventory. Even if she doesn't have stuff listed on ebay, she still takes orders through email.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AtOJh_kCUq9JdE1MZGdTTlhrbkRZNXZiX3FvZnZiRVE&hl=en


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## Lanmark (Feb 12, 2010)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> The only other thing I would add about these plants is that they like a good seasonal shift. Come winter cool them down quite a bit, perhaps the 50's is perfect, but they can take right down to freezing. Also back off on the water in winter, but don't truly dry them out or you'll lose flower stalks that are resting. In spring (April) increase warmth and water. Begin to fertilize them too. In June and July don't be afraid to water them with abandon since this is the natural monsoon season. The best temperatures are in the mid 80's in summer, but they can take higher. Come fall (November) start preparing them for winter by backing off on watering and fertilizer as the temperature cools. Humidity should remain high - no less than 60% year round.
> 
> Seikai is an oddball in many respects, but one of the best in my opinion. Watch your plant carefully though since these are subject to rot, a thing not typical of most varieties.



Good advice, Tom! :clap:



KyushuCalanthe said:


> You'd laugh at some of the most expensive ones - you'd wonder why they command such a high price. Usually it isn't so much about a nice appearance as it is about rarity. My favorites are the oddball flowers with extra parts, etc. Benikanzashi comes to mind and Manjyushage.



One such variety commanding high prices which may baffle the uninitiated is 'Suisen' but I think it's divine. :drool: It is very high on my wish list, and I see one available online right now for $1K. I'm tempted  

'Manjyushage' is super cool! I have this one, and I love it! My 'Benikanzashi' hasn't bloomed for me yet, and my two 'Hanakanzashi' plants have both bloomed with single spurs so far. I hear the flowers are variable from year to year so I hope someday to see three spurs on these otherwise very nice pink flowers.

I like the really deformed flowers with extra parts, too, like 'Syunkyuuden' , 'Nangokunomai' and 'Tennyonomai' ...to me they seem to have a fragrance even stronger than standard-form flowers possess.

Other unusual plants in my collection include 'Surusumi' a pointed bean leaf type with very strong dark inky marks on both sides of the leaves and occasional blue-on-green stripes too, 'Tensyou' which is a smaller plant -- I'd call it a needle-leaf type -- with spurs which come out from the middle of the flower, 'Kinginrasya' a small growing rasp-leaved plant with beautiful form and smallish thicker-textured sky-facing flowers having a bumpy texture and spurs which curve upward, '(K)Ouzanomai' (not sure of the spelling for this one) with very curly flowers on downward-hanging spikes and a plant which wants to grow downward and roots which tend to grow up toward the sky :rollhappy: , a 'Hisui' plant with _very_ green flowers  , 'Soubiryuu' with nice downward curving-leaves and white flowers varying from year to year but often having two spurs and two lips, and an outstandingly variegated (yellow and green stripe) 'Kinkounishiki' plant. :drool:


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## Lanmark (Feb 12, 2010)

Linh said:


> I was told this one is in the 5 digit price range. I don't have this one; it's just a picture from my 2010 Neo calendar from OL.



What is the name of this variety, Linh? I'm in lust/love! :smitten: :drool:


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## Linh (Feb 12, 2010)

Lanmark said:


> What is the name of this variety, Linh? I'm in lust/love! :smitten: :drool:


Lanmark, I THINK it is Kuro Hiyou. The Kanji name is on the bottom right hand side and next to it in microscopic print is the Japanese name written in Hiragana. Jason told me the name but I forgot so I had to sound it out using my Hiragana/Katakana syllabary book.


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## Lanmark (Feb 12, 2010)

Linh said:


> Lanmark, I THINK it is Kuro Hiyou. The Kanji name is on the bottom right hand side and next to it in microscopic print is the Japanese name written in Hiragana. Jason told me the name but I forgot so I had to sound it out using my Hiragana/Katakana syllabary book.



Thank you! Ah yes, I see the Kuro part. Thank you!  We'll have to find out for certain from Jason, then figure out who has it for sale :evil: :rollhappy:


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## NYEric (Feb 12, 2010)

You Neo people are nuts! :crazy:


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## Papaholic (Feb 12, 2010)

Well I see that there are Neofinetia addicts coming out of the woodwork. From what I see, it appears to be a pretty big community.
I honestly had no idea that there is so much interest in this variety of plant, nor that there are so many variations of the plant itself.
Are there any other Paph people like me who are also into, or starting into Neofineia's?
On that note...I have plenty of reference material for Paphs but does anyone know of or can recommend any Neofinetia publications? I searched but did not find much in the way of dedicated titles to this particular variety. It would be nice to own a few copies of books that I can reference for descriptions, varieties, etc.
Papaholic
P.S. I can say that I'm Nuts with Roths!!!


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## Linh (Feb 12, 2010)

Papaholic said:


> On that note...I have plenty of reference material for Paphs but does anyone know of or can recommend any Neofinetia publications? I searched but did not find much in the way of dedicated titles to this particular variety. It would be nice to own a few copies of books that I can reference for descriptions, varieties, etc.
> Papaholic
> P.S. I can say that I'm Nuts with Roths!!!


It's really not a big community. That's why it's so hard to find books or reference material in English. I'm a big fan of Paphs too but I got into the neos first. There's a book that NWO sells for around $50 that has pics of 315 varieties. It's all in Japanese though. However, Glenn had his translator make a list of names in the book translated into English. Some of the other Japanese reference books have English names next to the plant but the rest of the material in the books is in Japanese. I only know of 3 articles/ publications written in English. 

1)article by Jack E. Craig in AOS Bulletin Feb 1971
2)book by Thomas Mulhollan
3)Jason's article in Orchid Digest Vol 70-2

I believe T. Mulhollan wrote another article in OD about Neos also. It was in vol. 68-3, I think but not positive. There could be other stuff out there in English but I haven't come across it yet. 

If you're looking for culture info, I found that the Bakers sheet on neos and the article from Jack Craig was most helpful.


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## SlipperFan (Feb 12, 2010)

Papaholic said:


> Well I see that there are Neofinetia addicts coming out of the woodwork. From what I see, it appears to be a pretty big community.


I think I sent some info to lanmark about someone who was trying to start a Neo society here in the states. I've not followed up, have you, Mark?



Papaholic said:


> Are there any other Paph people like me who are also into, or starting into Neofineia's?


Thanks to Mark, my "collection" went from 7 to 14, almost overnight! Plus a few hybrids.


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## tocarmar (Feb 12, 2010)

I have a small collection. I have an Amami Island (from Longwood last year) . I also got a seedling from Troy Meyers. I just got some from Satomi,
Hanagoromo 1 gr, 3 babies with white/yellow leafs
2 Furan 1 with 2 spikes 4 growths ea.
Amaminomai 3 growths 2 babies
Hisui about 10+ growths
Tamakongou x Oonamiseikai 4 growths 

I can't wait for the blooms to start.


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## Lanmark (Feb 13, 2010)

SlipperFan said:


> I think I sent some info to lanmark about someone who was trying to start a Neo society here in the states. I've not followed up, have you, Mark?



 I haven't either, Dot.  I've been so busy that I can't seem to get anything done. Oh wait, I did manage to get switched over to CMH lighting.


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## Papaholic (Feb 17, 2010)

*more questions for the experts*

I figure since I already started this thread I can post some additional questions here for fellow Neo enthusiasts.
I've become more attuned to the prices for Neofinetias and actually they don't shock me at all considering a high quality Roth, Sanderianum, etc.. all command similar prices (in the hundreds) with awarded divisions commanding much more.
However... Do awarded Neos carry the huge premiums that Paphs do?
For example a good single growth Malipoense is near 50$ while an awarded division can be easily 500+.
The other part to my question on neos is what makes an "award quality" neo?
I read that a lot has to do with presentation but I'm sure there are other critical measures as well. I ask so that I know how to select higher quality plants for my next purchase. What do the rest of you folks look for when buying a selected variety? (I hope that's not a stupid question...)
Thanks again for all the informative replys.
Papaholic
P.S. Talk of a US neo society seems like a great idea.
Anyone in the greater Chicago area by chance??


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## Clark (Feb 18, 2010)

Clark said:


> If this is same seller we used from California, caution on shipping with this vendor, he/she will ship on Thursday and Friday, which means my plants sat in a icebox warehouse over weekend. Have feeling one is not going to make it. This was after -Please don't ship till Monday.
> Don't pay till Saturday afternoon. Warm weather folks- no worries.



Maybe I sneezed a little early, assuming 25/18F was a bit to cold to be w/o heat pack.
Plant in question is pushing out at least 3 new roots, and leaves feel 'not floppy' any more. Much more hardy than I assumed.


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## Lanmark (Feb 18, 2010)

Clark said:


> Maybe I sneezed a little early, assuming 25/18F was a bit to cold to be w/o heat pack.
> Plant in question is pushing out at least 3 new roots, and leaves feel 'not floppy' any more. Much more hardy than I assumed.



They are indeed very hardy little plants.  Although these shipping issues with this particular seller do concern me, I have to admit I've not lost any plants due to bitter cold/subfreezing weather during times of shipping. :clap: Overall I am a very satisfied customer. 
___________________________

To answer Papaholic, I would have to say "I don't know" in regards to your question about the pricing of awarded Neos. Awarded Neos in USA are few and far between as far as I know. Being awarded may very well impact the price of a plant, but I think the rarity of a variety, its position/ranking on the annual Meikan chart, the maturity/size/condition of the plant in question and whether it is a division, clone or seedling of the registered named variety will have much more influence on its price than any history of being awarded.

I say this because, all things being relative, many Neos are already very expensive. I can't imagine someone charging $5000 instead of $500 for a nice-sized 'Unkai' plant just because it had been awarded. They might charge $750, $1000, or maybe even $1500 for "an otherwise $500 plant", but I think a tenfold increase in price is unlikely. I wouldn't pay any such extra premium anyway unless *1)* I was purchasing the entire original plant which had been very recently awarded or a division of it which had been grown to comparable quality, size and condition as the original awarded parent plant and could therefore be considered as being an exceptionally nice specimen, or *2)* the award was particularly prestigious, maybe even having been earned at an especially famous venue and the documented recipient had been someone famous or well-known with prestige within the community of orchidists, or *3)* the plant had some consistently special feature above and beyond other plants of the same variety, a feature or set of features such as larger flower size, deeper flower color, more flowers per spike, higher than average frequency of blooming, improved vigor, better than average variegation and so forth. Even these things, however, could easily be the results of very good culture by the grower (including factors such as altitude, better than average lighting or a unique fertilizer system) rather than being the products of genetic superiority of the plant in question. Again, I would be hesitant to pay the higher price unless I was specifically looking for a particularly beautifully grown specimen plant. To anyone who thinks differently: please feel free to correct me on this if you feel I am wrong.

I also believe, in the case of 'All Nippon-registered' varieties, good culture, form and presentation would be most important when showing a plant in hopes of garnering an award.


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