# Trouble with Paul Parks



## Shiva (Nov 12, 2011)

This Paph is in trouble but I don't know what's really wrong with it. All the leaves have these pits and brown patches and even the new leaves become affected in time. No obvious insects. Bacterias would have killed the plant already and the underleaf is quite healthy and green. This is the only plant in my collection that looks like this. Would a virus damage only the top part of the leaves? I only spray my plants with insecticidal soap from time to time for prevention. The plant gets water the same as the others. Intermediate temperatures and good ventilation.
Any idea?


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## ehanes7612 (Nov 12, 2011)

maybe over fertilizing?


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## Erythrone (Nov 12, 2011)

Maybe mesophyl collapse???

I think it can be virus too.... Did you test it for CymMV and ORSV? I think you use Agdia test, don't you? Of course it can be another one. Like Fleck Virus....

"Orchid fleck virus (KORV)
The orchid fleck virus usually appears on the older leaves of the plants of Phalaenopsis, Paphiopedilum, Cymbidium, Coelogyne, Oncidium and other orchids, whereas young leaves still look healthy. First symptoms on the leaf surface are spots or stripes, with increasing infestation the tissue concerned becomes dry, there are white-grey, clearly defined sunken spots, but not on the underside. Subsequently there is secondary fungus infestation and the infested areas turn black. The virus can be latent in the plant without showing the above-described symptoms. They may appear any time on the leaves, if the plant is exposed to stress. "

http://www.hark-orchideen.de/Pflanzenschutz/Virosen/biologie.php?lang=en&navID=99&page=2


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## paphioboy (Nov 12, 2011)

Where do the symptoms start from? Leaf tip? Leaf base? How quickly does it 'spread'?


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## NYEric (Nov 12, 2011)

Can you post a photo of the whole plant, thanks. I'd isolate this one.


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## eggshells (Nov 12, 2011)

Erythrone said:


> Maybe mesophyl collapse???
> 
> I



Looks like it. It seems like after the cell collapse and once it gets exposed to strong light. It turns brown.

I had one on my philippinense. I will post a picture. Not as severe as this one but pretty similar.


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## Paphman910 (Nov 12, 2011)

eggshells said:


> Looks like it. It seems like after the cell collapse and once it gets exposed to strong light. It turns brown.
> 
> I had one on my philippinense. I will post a picture. Not as severe as this one but pretty similar.



I agree! I was thinking the same thing! Wasn't there a heat wave back east this year with temperatures above 30 C! Also the parents are not high light plants.

Paphman


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## eggshells (Nov 12, 2011)

Paphman910 said:


> I agree! I was thinking the same thing! Wasn't there a heat wave back east this year with temperatures above 30 C! Also the parents are not high light plants.
> 
> Paphman



Yeah. We were troubleshooting this a while ago. When my condo reached 31c and I have left on the weekend. The plants got heat stressed and this thing manifested. I dont know if cold can do that also.

Those brown spots started as really white spots and sunk a bit. Then it turned brown. Now I caught it right away so some of the white turned back to green but unfortunately it left those marks. 

If you need a high res pic to compare I can send it to you.

Good luck!


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## Shiva (Nov 12, 2011)

There is some similarities but it's much worse for me. I didn't think of last summer heat but it's possible. The last two leaves are not as bad. I'll post a pic tomorrow.


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## Shiva (Nov 12, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> Where do the symptoms start from? Leaf tip? Leaf base? How quickly does it 'spread'?



The leaf tips are OK. I first noticed the brown patches and mesophyl collapse on the bottom leaf last summer, then it got much worse on the leaf above it. It doesn't seem to be spreading now though the new leaves have some slight pittings on top. Maybe I'm giving it too much light. I'm inclined to think Paphman910 might be right.


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## Shiva (Nov 12, 2011)

Erythrone said:


> Maybe mesophyl collapse???
> 
> I think it can be virus too.... Did you test it for CymMV and ORSV? I think you use Agdia test, don't you? Of course it can be another one. Like Fleck Virus.



Actually, I have far too many plants and it would be impractical and very costly to check them all for viruses. And then I would always worry anyway about false positives and false negatives. I'm very strong however on sterelyzing cutting tools everytime I use them. There's no point taking chances. I've thrown out many plants on suspicion of diseases, viruses or not. To me, nothing is worth the space in my growing room if it's always sick, doesn't ever flower or sits there sulking for too long. In short, I can live with viruses if the plants look healthy, grow well and flower well.


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## Shiva (Nov 13, 2011)

The three lower leaves are the most affected. The top new leaves have a few pits an mesophyl collapse that are too small to show on these photos.

I didn't think of it first but too warm and too cold temps...Could that be it?


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## Ray (Nov 13, 2011)

I was under the impression that mesophyll collapse primarily resulted from tissue getting suddenly overcooled, not from getting too warm (which I don't think the quoted temperature are, anyway. My GH got up into the 90's a few times over the summer, and I've seen none of that.)

Now, if they were that warm and you hit them with cold water...

However, those first photos don't look like that to me, anyway.


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## likespaphs (Nov 13, 2011)

i don't know if you could send it to Critter Creek labs here in the US or is there a lab that could test for virus up there?


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## eggshells (Nov 13, 2011)

Hi Ray, our weather here in the prairies gets really really dry so that was a combination of both the humidity that day clocked at 29% RH.. Shiva's plants are in the GH so humidity may not be the problem.

I have ready that if the leaves surface are warm and gets hit by cold water. This can result to cell collapse also.


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## Shiva (Nov 13, 2011)

eggshells said:


> Shiva's plants are in the GH so humidity may not be the problem.
> I have ready that if the leaves surface are warm and gets hit by cold water. This can result to cell collapse also.



Not in the g/h anymore. The plant is in my growing room inside the house. But it spent a good part of the summer outside and cold night rain at 10°C may have caused this. Such injuries often take time to develop and I may just be seeing the full damage now. 

You guys help me a lot figuring out what I'm doing wrong in this case. I can never thank you enough. 

Eventually, I plan to keep the phrags and paphs inside the house all year and cool the growing room with an air conditionner in summer. No more cold rain, no more bugs coming in with the plants and lesser risks of bacterial or fungus infections.


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## SlipperKing (Nov 13, 2011)

I've gotten the same exact thing on multies before. The one that comes to mind is a Lady Isabel X sandie. I think in the case of mine, it was a combination of poor roots and some extreme weather. My plants are never outside so the cold rain never bothers my plants and it probably didn't effect yours either.


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## Shiva (Nov 13, 2011)

SlipperKing said:


> I've gotten the same exact thing on multies before. The one that comes to mind is a Lady Isabel X sandie. I think in the case of mine, it was a combination of poor roots and some extreme weather.



Rick, how is your plant now?


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## Erythrone (Nov 13, 2011)

likespaphs said:


> i don't know if you could send it to Critter Creek labs here in the US or is there a lab that could test for virus up there?



I think like you...:sob:


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## likespaphs (Nov 13, 2011)

just to be sure
i have no idea whether or not it is actually a virus
one would also have to be sure that the lab can test for the virus you're concerned is there


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## Roth (Nov 14, 2011)

Iron toxicity, it was typical of the old sanderianum wild plants and some of their hybrids... It happened easily too in a sour or acid media ( the iron availability increases). It is genetic.

Increase the liming very heavily, repot, avoid any sphag or anything that could make the media acid from now. I got this long time ago, now I control it, and I still have plant that can be susceptible to it. If you grow them with proper liming, the media never becomes acid, the plants will be fine. 

It is not a virus, guaranteed, so no need to spend money for nothing. It is not temperature, or I would have killed all of my multis plants this summer ( went up to 40 degrees celsius for a couple of weeks, with three peaks at 42, no damages nowhere...).


Eggshells problem is very different, could be a latent infection, or local injury...


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## Shiva (Nov 14, 2011)

Could well be the explanation Borat! I did add some iron to my plants last summer when a couple of phrags came up with whitish leaves. I was very careful with the amount but this plant was new to my collection and had not been repotted yet in my neutral mix (6.2 water pH). As I said previously, none of the other plants showed this symptom and all the whitish growhts in my phrags turned back green.
The plant has since been repotted and let's hope all the damage has been done already. Thanks for your insight.


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## SlipperKing (Nov 16, 2011)

Shiva said:


> Rick, how is your plant now?



Still scared but growing nicely on the top!


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## Leo Schordje (Nov 16, 2011)

Myself, when I see that sort of damage, I would first treat for both false and true spider mites. Then repot the plant checking the roots for issues. Spray again if mealies or spider mites or any other pests are found. 

Treat for spider mites especially if more than one plant is affected. Old spider mite damage is susceptible to all manner of secondary rots and infections. As a result of these secondary rots, the damaged plant can look like it was suffering from something completely unrelated to spider mites, even though the mites were the original cause. When the mites are active, they are so small that most of us over 40 (or 50) just can't see them. Their damage might not always look like the textbook images. Many growers (not all) have chronic low level infestations that will flare up on a few plants every now and then until environmental factors or spraying knocks them back under control. 

Second, of the possible causes proposed, Roth's (Xavier's) explanation seems to me to be more likely than virus, though virus is not entirely off the list. Repotting and adding lime to your mix will take care of that. Being cautious about using micro nutrients is advisable, many plants have specific sensitivities. Dilute Dilute Dilute is key when applying micro-nutrients. 

My 2 cents.


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## Potterychef (Nov 17, 2011)

Just wanted to put in my two cents. Roth's assessment of iron toxicity makes good sense to me. I had exactly the the same looking issue on a p. Lady Rothschild x sanderianum. Same circumstances...plant was missed during repotting and mix went sour. Plant has since been repotted and seems to be holding its own, but looks a mess. And, it was the only plant this happened to, the other 30 or so primary-ish sanderianum hybrids had all been repotted and look great. Doug


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## Roth (Nov 17, 2011)

Leo is right for the mites, but I would not think about it if only that plant is affected and because it is a sanderianum hybrid. I got few dozen sanderianum like that a decade ago, and it was iron toxicity.

This said, the mites stories can be really much of an headache. I have seen symptoms as chlorotic leaves with dark green 'spots' that came from tarsonemid mites, they kindly sit in the crown, do their job, and the leaves emerge with those dark green spots. If you do not break the crown, you never see any mites. Pleated leaves can come from mites too, and chlorotic/necrotic patches as well, with no sign of mites. A large group of mites attack orchids, and there are not many pictures of symptoms on orchids ( except a few on Hark website). Tarsonemid mites, cyclamen mites, even some types of dust mites, they all hide, make damages and cannot be spotted on the leaves. Another misconception is that mites 'hate' humidity. I have seen wild sangii and mastersianum covered with brevipalpus mites out of the jungle, dendrobium vexillarius, dendrobium malvicolor from Java, cuthbertsonii, some phalaenopsis... 



Many mites in fact are to be found in extremely humid weather.

For mites, bromopropylate was the best miticide, followed by dicofol and pentac. aldicarb works nicely as long as there is no resistance. Propargite works really well, but I heard people destroyed many plants with it (Omite), though I never got a problem with it.

Nematodes are another very bad pest, I have seen it infrequently, it is spectacular, hard to diagnose, usually makes some sort of 'tumor' or gall/tumor like patches of tissues.


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## nikv (Nov 17, 2011)

When I read the title of this thread, I immediately thought of the Hitchcock movie "The Trouble with Harry". In the later case, the trouble was that he was dead. I hope that this orchid recovers from it's malady and doesn't suffer the same fate.


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## Shiva (Nov 17, 2011)

nikv said:


> When I read the title of this thread, I immediately thought of the Hitchcock movie "The Trouble with Harry". In the later case, the trouble was that he was dead. I hope that this orchid recovers from it's malady and doesn't suffer the same fate.



So do I. 
I put it in my Orchid window and it looks ok for now. 
Although it's always a possibility I never saw mites on the plant, not even with a 15x magnifying lighting lens. There is absolutely no damage at all under the leaves. Only above.

See: Left is over, right is under:


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