# Phrag warscewiczianum temps



## orchidman77 (Mar 27, 2010)

Hey guys!

I ordered a phrag warscewiczianum and it should be coming in soon. I live in an area where it's hot and humid--what are the maximum temps for it? I don't want to rot it by having it outside when it's too hot to grow.

Thanks!
David


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## Rick (Mar 27, 2010)

Are you referring to the old (popowii) or new (wallisii) warcze?

In either case if you spend much time with leaf temps above 85F you need to look out for erwinia (basal rots). I think popowii is even more susceptible than wallisii.

However, I found that keeping humidity and airflow high, and supplementing with a some epsom salts during brighter warmer weather helps.:wink:

And be prepared with dragons blood and cinnamon 

I've gone through about 3 popowii and on my second wallisii. The popowii's came and went before I started the epsom salt spikes (getting about 2-3 years max out of them). The first wallisii actually did well for about 3 years before it trickled away its growths to rot. The newer one has had minimal rot problems, and has had even fewer issues since I started the Mg supplementation. I also have an exstaminodium that is relatively impervious in comparison.


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## orchidman77 (Mar 28, 2010)

I'm referring to popowii.

I guess I'll have to grow it inside in that case.....I have epsom salts and the high humidity, i'll work on that airflow.

How in the world do temperature alone cause erwinia?

Thanks,
David


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## Rick (Mar 28, 2010)

orchidman77 said:


> I'm referring to popowii.
> 
> I guess I'll have to grow it inside in that case.....I have epsom salts and the high humidity, i'll work on that airflow.
> 
> ...



Several theories:

1) All biological processes operate within temperature ranges that the organism has evolved to. This gets down to the molecular enzymatic level. When the temperature ranges are exceeded (in either direction) stress occurs which can overwhelm repair systems (such as immunity to disease, which plants have as well as animals).

2) Starting again with the top theme, amend with "all biological individuals are actually ecosystems". If you change the temperature for the organism in question you change it for the entire ecosystem that lives inside and outside that organism. Opportunistic invaders are everywhere, and waiting in low numbers (kept in check by non-optimal conditions for them) for conditions to swing more in their favor.

What I have found with erwinia is that it is present in low numbers in the environment almost everywhere. However, it's waiting for an environmental cue to go crazy. In this case the production of a new growth under stressful (high temp/inadequate nutrition) conditions is a cue. When new growths are generated between the lower leaf axials, the plant generates an enzyme to lyse (cut off) the old leaf. Kind of like when a baby is teething and having new teeth cut through the gums. If the conditions are hot and nutrition is such that the plant tissue in the compromised area is immune deficient then erwinia becomes pathogenic.


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## Rick (Mar 28, 2010)

All that being said, there are a ton of variables concerning "proper nutrition".

This includes the makeup and age of your potting mix, the bacteria and fungal species colonizing it, the type of fertilizer and supplements you use, and the makeup of your irrigation water.

So everyone's conditions (and potential experiences) will be different, and I'm just describing mine.

However, it seems that erwinia basal rots have (and still are) experienced by even the best phrag growers in different parts of the country (who tend to link the problem to the warm times more than not). So there is a bit of consensus on the need to control temps.


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## Rick (Mar 28, 2010)

Here's an article I dug up on how Ca helps prevent erwinia (non orchid). I googled several others short notice, but this was the most current and accessible.

Please note though that Ca and Mg use in orchids are closely intertwined, so you could have a plant floating in Ca and cause an Mg deficiency and vice-verse.

enjoy

http://www.fluidfertilizer.com/pastart/pdf/36P16-19.pdf


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## orchidman77 (Mar 29, 2010)

wow, thanks rick! I appreciate all of this. I have a southen window that i'm planning to put the popowii in, it's the best window in the house, light-wise. I'm concerned about the temperatures...is there anything I can do besides give it more air movement to help keep rot to a minimum? I've got a sphagnum moss/CHC blend ready to pot it up, planning to use only rainwater, and supplement with Ca/Mg and regular fertilizer.


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## smartie2000 (Mar 29, 2010)

clay pots are also a good way too keep root systems cool, due to evaporation
...but you will need to water more often (or sit in water, I personally haven't had issues with sitting caudatum types in water, but others may differ)


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## Paphman910 (Mar 29, 2010)

smartie2000 said:


> clay pots are also a good way too keep root systems cool, due to evaporation
> ...but you will need to water more often (or sit in water, I personally haven't had issues with sitting caudatum types in water, but others may differ)




I am doing the same with my Phrag popowii at the moment! My Phrag leaves were getting smaller over the year so I repotted in in a clay pot and added about two inches of pumice stones on the bottom of the pot. Then I added bark to the root system and added sphagnum moss as a top dressing. The clay pot is sitting in about one inch of water. I hope this will help but only time will tell if it works.

Paphman910


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## orchidman77 (Mar 29, 2010)

I've always read that the caudatum types don't really like to be sitting in water....it'll be put in a mix that's a little over half sphagnum, so I think it'll be okay there. I hope that the roots stay cool enough....only time will tell.

David


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## Rick (Mar 30, 2010)

My first wallisii was in a plastic basket of moss (which turned live over time) that I kept in about a 1/2 inch of water. For at least 3 years it grew and bloomed like crazy without any troubles. Then I toured it around for some shows, and it started going down hill. I went to repot it, but I traumatized it severely trying to get it untangled from the pot. Then I chased erwinia from one growth to the next and over a year I ended up losing the plant.

This was before I looked into things like bone meal and epsom salt supplementation, or had Dragons blood. At this point I think that erwinia infections may have as much to do with inadequate/improper nutrition as environment. 

So I have no doubt you could be successful with keeping your phrags very wet as long as the potting system is very airy.


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## smartie2000 (Mar 30, 2010)

orchidman77 said:


> I've always read that the caudatum types don't really like to be sitting in water....it'll be put in a mix that's a little over half sphagnum, so I think it'll be okay there. I hope that the roots stay cool enough....only time will tell.
> 
> David



If you ever find my forum post from 3-4 years ago, I would have though the same way.

Since then I had to sit them in water because I found that I was keeping the caudatum types too dry. Works fine, the roots grow into the water like other Phrags.


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## orchidman77 (Mar 30, 2010)

smartie2000 said:


> If you ever find my forum post from 3-4 years ago, I would have though the same way.
> 
> Since then I had to sit them in water because I found that I was keeping the caudatum types too dry. Works fine, the roots grow into the water like other Phrags.




Really? That's interesting. I guess I'll just see what works and formulate a plan. Since we grow these plants all over the globe, I'm not that surprised that different people from different places have different methods to grow these plants successfully! I'm most worried about it getting to hot and rotting, but I think if I keep it healthy enough, it won't have much of a problem.

David


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## Kevin (Mar 30, 2010)

I'm currently growing a lindenii in semi-hydro, and it seems very healthy. I never thought it would, since I thought like you, that those types liked it drier. Maybe if you pot in S/H and water with cool or cold water (not enough to stress the plant), that might help it stay cooler.


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## Rick (Mar 31, 2010)

Kevin said:


> I'm currently growing a lindenii in semi-hydro, and it seems very healthy. I never thought it would, since I thought like you, that those types liked it drier. Maybe if you pot in S/H and water with cool or cold water (not enough to stress the plant), that might help it stay cooler.




I'd say what works good for your lindenii will do the same for popowii.


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## swamprad (Mar 31, 2010)

I have always grown my caudatum types wet, just like my besseae hybrids, and they seem to do fine. I suspect that the oft repeated advice to grow caudatum types drier is not entirely accurate.


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## Rick (Mar 31, 2010)

swamprad said:


> I have always grown my caudatum types wet, just like my besseae hybrids, and they seem to do fine. I suspect that the oft repeated advice to grow caudatum types drier is not entirely accurate.



Also "dryer" is a relative term.

Even if I don't have my caudatum types sitting in water like all my other phrags, they still get watered at least twice as much as any of my "wettest" paphs.


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## SlipperFan (Mar 31, 2010)

And I find that any Phrag's roots will rot if the media breaks down too much and does not let air through. I don't like to keep them too wet.


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## orchidman77 (Apr 2, 2010)

I received the popowii today! It's rather small but looks pretty healthy. The leaves are crinkled, but not badly, so i'll just watch it extra carefully for the next few months.

I potted it into the small 2 inch pot it came in (exchanged media with sphagnum) and then put it inside the clay pot (also with sphagnum) to keep the roots cool. I'll get a fan and have it going all the time in the southern window. Water with rainwater when it starts to dry. Sound good?

David

David


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## Rick (Apr 2, 2010)

orchidman77 said:


> I received the popowii today! It's rather small but looks pretty healthy. The leaves are crinkled, but not badly, so i'll just watch it extra carefully for the next few months.
> 
> I potted it into the small 2 inch pot it came in (exchanged media with sphagnum) and then put it inside the clay pot (also with sphagnum) to keep the roots cool. I'll get a fan and have it going all the time in the southern window. Water with rainwater when it starts to dry. Sound good?
> 
> ...



Do you have a hygrometer? Humidity should not get below 50% and optimally higher than 70 for a new plant.

BTW where did you get this plant?


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## orchidman77 (Apr 3, 2010)

I don't have a hygrometer, but I put it in a tray of water where the roots wouldn't touch it so that'll raise humidity.

I got it from Hausermanns!!! Here's the link: http://www.orchidsbyhausermann.com/...=PROD&Product_Code=FV-20139&Category_Code=FXV

It's a sibbing between 'Dark Tower' and another plant, unnamed....

David


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## SlipperFan (Apr 3, 2010)

Mmmmmmm -- thanks for the link!


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## SlipperKing (Apr 3, 2010)

orchidman77 said:


> I don't have a hygrometer, but I put it in a tray of water where the roots wouldn't touch it so that'll raise humidity.
> 
> I got it from Hausermanns!!! Here's the link: http://www.orchidsbyhausermann.com/...=PROD&Product_Code=FV-20139&Category_Code=FXV
> 
> ...



David, the ad say crossed self not sibling................nice buy


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## orchidman77 (Apr 4, 2010)

Dot, you're welcome!

Rick, the website says it is a selfing but the tag says "Phrag popowii 'Dark Tower' (x sib)." I guess they just typed it incorrectly on the website???

David


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## Rick (Apr 4, 2010)

orchidman77 said:


> Dot, you're welcome!
> 
> Rick, the website says it is a selfing but the tag says "Phrag popowii 'Dark Tower' (x sib)." I guess they just typed it incorrectly on the website???
> 
> David



In either case $45 is a good price for this species.


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## Rick (Apr 4, 2010)

orchidman77 said:


> I don't have a hygrometer, but I put it in a tray of water where the roots wouldn't touch it so that'll raise humidity.
> 
> I got it from Hausermanns!!! Here's the link: http://www.orchidsbyhausermann.com/...=PROD&Product_Code=FV-20139&Category_Code=FXV
> 
> ...



In my house humidity trays don't work. AC in the summer and electric heat in the winter drys things out to much. My indoor plants are in a Wardian Case (Aquarium for plants) like system that has a little swamp cooler in it for humidification. I've seen some other good systems that surround bakers racks (or similar shelving systems) with clear plastic shower curtains with cool mist humidifiers inside them.

A decent hygrometer can be purchased for less than 1/2 the cost of your new plant. I think this is a critical piece of equipment for a new slipper grower.


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## goldenrose (Apr 4, 2010)

orchidman77 said:


> ....I got it from Hausermanns!!! Here's the link: http://www.orchidsbyhausermann.com/...=PROD&Product_Code=FV-20139&Category_Code=FXV It's a sibbing between 'Dark Tower' and another plant, unnamed....David


Actually it came from Fox Valley, whenever FV precedes the # it's one of Tom's plants.


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## tomkalina (Apr 5, 2010)

Right you are, Rose; All Paphs or Phrags on the Hausermann website starting with the "FV" prefix are our breeding. Also, the tag in the plant is correct - it's a sibbing, not a selfing, of Phrag. popowii. I've requested the Hausermann website description for this species be changed today to reflect the correct info. 

Thanks,


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## orchidman77 (Apr 5, 2010)

Glad that cleared up, Tom!  In any case I think it won't be too long before it blooms--it has a ls of 8 1/2 inches total and I've always read they bloom small....

Rick, I'll look into a hygrometer--funds are a little tight but I'll do what I need to do to keep my slippers happy!

David


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## Rick (Apr 6, 2010)

orchidman77 said:


> ..
> 
> Rick, I'll look into a hygrometer--funds are a little tight but I'll do what I need to do to keep my slippers happy!
> 
> David




You don't have to look too far. You can get them at Home Depot for between $15 and $25

However, knowing what the humidity is versus regulating it are two different issues. Humidity and temp regulation are much more $ intensive than just measuring it.:sob:


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## orchidman77 (Apr 7, 2010)

Rick said:


> You don't have to look too far. You can get them at Home Depot for between $15 and $25
> 
> However, knowing what the humidity is versus regulating it are two different issues. Humidity and temp regulation are much more $ intensive than just measuring it.:sob:



Luckily, I live in the perfect environment for growing multifloral Paphs (my absolute favorites)....hot and humid. That's right, it's already in the 80's here and exTREMEly humid.  But that's not too good for the long-petaled phrags. i'll have to grow those inside year-round and learn to regulate the temps/humidity.  but hopefully my popowii will be strong enough to last through at least a year of (possible) torture. :evil:


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