# Ebb and Flow for Phrags



## Candace (Feb 7, 2011)

Well, I'm about a week or two away from starting my ebb and flow venture with phrags. Since phrags don't care for heaving feeding, I will have to experiment with foliar feeding and what I put in my solution. Anyone grow phrags this way? I'd appreciate any tips or caveats as this will be new for me!


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## Erythrone (Feb 7, 2011)

Since my Phrag love to rot when I wet the crown, I never use foliar feeding.


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## NYEric (Feb 7, 2011)

I would avoid it also. If you're doing ebb and flow, just flush w/ unfertilized water once a month.

I was thinking this might be the best way to go. I don't want to over fertilize though, so.... I don't know what the best TDS for phrags would be as I fertilize them pretty rarely and only use R.O. currently.


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## Lanmark (Feb 7, 2011)

I don't grow Phrags but I do have experience with ebb and flow.

I don't know how much moisture you hope to maintain at the roots, but be very watchful as you get to know how things work. Be prepared to adjust the frequency and timing of your flood and drain cycles until you get things just right. LECA holds water, and generally it will be either more than you expect or less than you hope. :rollhappy:

Use a dilute solution of fertilizer, very dilute if you are worried about overfeeding. Be sure to check the TDS and the pH levels frequently. These values can and do change (the pH can change quite rapidly) as ions are exchanged between the roots and the ebb & flow solution. 

Always be vigilant, watching for any sourness, foulness, excessive clouding or "rotting" odor coming from your reservoir of ebb & flow solution.

Don't allow your ebb & flow solution to become too cold unless your Phrags like cold roots.

I wish I could give you information which is more specific to Phrags, but perhaps you'll at least find something useful in what I've shared.


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## Candace (Feb 7, 2011)

I'm thinking about maybe using a aquarium heater if necessary during the winter, or stepping back the watering significantly. Though, my resevoir would be actual g.h. temp...


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## Rick (Feb 7, 2011)

Since I only do species phrags I couldn't generalize for all phrags and their hybrids.

I have all my "short" petaled swamp dwellers in some form of SH that "ebb and flows" based on how leaky the trays are

I also broadcast spray (foliar spray) everything and I don't think I've ever seen a case of crown rot (just basal Erwinia problems during the summer) in my phrags.

Longifolium, pearcei, and their hybrids will probably go nuts for you in this system.

I'm very pleased with the results of my sphag/wooden basket method for the long petaled phrags. I planted an exstaminodium, a beat up lindenii, and a wallisii, and they are all producing new growths, roots, and elongating leaves.

I took a chance on the exstaminodium since I saw the tip of a bract in the crown of the oldest mature growth when I replanted, and the spike has now grown at least 2 inches.


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## Rick (Feb 7, 2011)

Seems like Ed M has an ebb and flow bench for a bunch of his phrags.

I haven't seen him much lately, maybe you could PM him.


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## Shiva (Feb 8, 2011)

I wouldn't use such a system. I prefer to water every plant individually. That way I can isolate any plant that has a problem quickly. Ebb and flow may solve some problems but it also may create others. It's just a different can of worms to me.


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## Wendy (Feb 8, 2011)

Shiva said:


> I wouldn't use such a system. I prefer to water every plant individually. That way I can isolate any plant that has a problem quickly. Ebb and flow may solve some problems but it also may create others. It's just a different can of worms to me.



Agreed. If one plant has a pathogen then they will all get to share it. Like Shiva I prefer the one at a time method. I do have ebb and flow trays but the drain is never shut and the water runs freely out into the catch bucket. That way no one is sitting in anyone else's 'germs'.


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## Candace (Feb 8, 2011)

Wendy said:


> Agreed. If one plant has a pathogen then they will all get to share it. Like Shiva I prefer the one at a time method. I do have ebb and flow trays but the drain is never shut and the water runs freely out into the catch bucket. That way no one is sitting in anyone else's 'germs'.



In the ebb and flow method the nutrient solution is drained away.

I've grown in s/h for years, so it's not much of a jump.


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## Candace (Feb 8, 2011)

Rick said:


> Seems like Ed M has an ebb and flow bench for a bunch of his phrags.
> 
> I haven't seen him much lately, maybe you could PM him.



That was with his disas, which ran through a cooler. I think they all died after a break down of the system:<


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## NYEric (Feb 8, 2011)

I wouldn't worry about water temp that much unless your water is very cold.


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## Justin (Feb 8, 2011)

with recirculating systems i would be way too paranoid about virus or other pathogen spreading...


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## gonewild (Feb 8, 2011)

I used ebb/flo for phrag seedlings in Leca. It worked great for a while. After some time it became evident that salts were accumulating on the media surface. This caused a problem for the new root tips that phrags put out at surface level. So since I needed to flush the surface frequently anyway I stopped the flood irrigation method.

I think ebb/flo method works great for short term crops but for plants like orchids that live forever it is not the best. But Phrags will love you if you them sit in an inch of water, just make sure you have tall pots.


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## Candace (Feb 8, 2011)

gonewild said:


> I used ebb/flo for phrag seedlings in Leca. It worked great for a while. After some time it became evident that salts were accumulating on the media surface. This caused a problem for the new root tips that phrags put out at surface level. So since I needed to flush the surface frequently anyway I stopped the flood irrigation method.
> 
> I think ebb/flo method works great for short term crops but for plants like orchids that live forever it is not the best. But Phrags will love you if you them sit in an inch of water, just make sure you have tall pots.




I'm not fully convinced I should do the ebb and flow thing as I've had so much success keeping them in a small amount of RO. And I'd have to spend several hundred $ on more resevoirs as only 1 came with the set-up I bought. I may just put on large hole in the tray that can be plugged up and drain it occasionally to flush it. Rather than the recirculation. It would be much cheaper for me.


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## gonewild (Feb 8, 2011)

If you already have a reservoir and pump you might consider circulating the water that the plants sit in. The roots that grow out of the pot into the water would respond favorably to water movement.

One thing to consider about growing the plants in water is that the roots do grow out the bottom and into the water. The plants will grow great like this but when if you want to take a plant out of the water a problem may arise. The water roots will surely break off. Also when time comes to repot the water roots break off. Some Phrags absolutely don't like having their most active roots all broken off.


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## Candace (Feb 8, 2011)

gonewild said:


> If you already have a reservoir and pump you might consider circulating the water that the plants sit in. The roots that grow out of the pot into the water would respond favorably to water movement.
> 
> One thing to consider about growing the plants in water is that the roots do grow out the bottom and into the water. The plants will grow great like this but when if you want to take a plant out of the water a problem may arise. The water roots will surely break off. Also when time comes to repot the water roots break off. Some Phrags absolutely don't like having their most active roots all broken off.



Root breakage would be a consideration, I'm sure. I think the best way to handle this would be plastic pots that could be cut rather than cutting roots.


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## Rick (Feb 8, 2011)

Candace said:


> That was with his disas, which ran through a cooler. I think they all died after a break down of the system:<



That was something else. The refrigerator did fail, and then he "stole" Lydias frig from the house to try to salvage them. I don't think he salvaged much, but Lydia got a new fridge out of the deal.

He also had some big shelf size trays with phrags in them that he told me he would periodically flood, and then drain out slowly.


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## gonewild (Feb 8, 2011)

Candace said:


> Root breakage would be a consideration, I'm sure. I think the best way to handle this would be plastic pots that could be cut rather than cutting roots.



That's what I thought but it was impossible to cut away the pots without breaking the roots. When these roots on Phrags crack the root just dies off. Maybe an open bottom pot with a large mesh on the bottom to hold in a layer of coarse leca at the bottom.


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## Candace (Feb 8, 2011)

gonewild said:


> That's what I thought but it was impossible to cut away the pots without breaking the roots. When these roots on Phrags crack the root just dies off. Maybe an open bottom pot with a large mesh on the bottom to hold in a layer of coarse leca at the bottom.



There are some plastic net type pots that I've got-I think they'd be pretty easy to cut. Though, if I stick to the same method I use now, I'll just pot them in spagnum and repot every 6-8 months. I did NOT have success with my phrags in leca. They like spag. much better. I could also experiment with rock wool or grow-cubes. Most likely, if the roots start to escape, I'd just repot.


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## gonewild (Feb 8, 2011)

Stick with the spag if it works for you. Leca would probably work for you if you kept the plants sitting in water as will the moss.

I would not bother with rock wool. I have some no orchid plants in it and "I under estimated the creepyness of it".


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## Candace (Feb 8, 2011)

What don't you like about the rock wool?


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## Rick (Feb 8, 2011)

Candace said:


> There are some plastic net type pots that I've got-I think they'd be pretty easy to cut. Though, if I stick to the same method I use now, I'll just pot them in spagnum and repot every 6-8 months. I did NOT have success with my phrags in leca. They like spag. much better. I could also experiment with rock wool or grow-cubes. Most likely, if the roots start to escape, I'd just repot.



I had a wallisii in one of those net type basket pots in sphag. I grew fantastically, constantly wet, kind of SH. But it maxed out the pot and roots were everywhere. I ended up mutilating it cutting up the pot, and then it came down with slow burning Erwinia until it went from 10+ growths to nothing. Instead of trying to remove the entire pot, I probably should have just cut the rim off and stuck the whole root mass with the old pot intact into a bigger net basket with more sphag.

Anyway that's my strategy for using the wooden slat baskets. Bigger openings, and if the wood isn't rotten, just cut the wire pins holding the corners together and the pieces fall out. Then stick the root mass into a bigger basket.


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## Ernie (Feb 9, 2011)

gonewild said:


> Maybe an open bottom pot with a large mesh on the bottom to hold in a layer of coarse leca at the bottom.



Take a peak at mesh pots marketed for pond plants. Like for lilies and irises etc. They have a pretty tight mesh and I would imagine phrag roots wouldn't get through?


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## Lanmark (Feb 9, 2011)

I think Ernie's just given a great suggestion here: pond plant mesh pots! The mesh really is very small! You could try one or two plants in them using sphagnum moss and discover how easy or difficult it will be to repot them 6 - 8 months from now. I wonder if there is some way you could treat the interior of these pond plant mesh pots with a non-greasy, non-toxic, permanent, non-stick coating which wouldn't wash away or soak off. Quick! -- should we run off to the patent office?! :rollhappy:

Lance is right. Avoid the rock wool, and it also sounds to me like you'd probably have better results with sphagnum moss than with LECA, but still allowing the tall pots to rest in shallow, frequently-changed RO water which is aerated/moving. Ditching the idea of ebb and flow for your Phrags might be the right choice.

One of the things I really appreciate about this forum is this ongoing awesome exchange of ideas and the wise tips we can all glean from experienced growers like Lance, Ernie, Rick, Candace, Rose, Dot, and so many others. :clap:


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## Candace (Feb 9, 2011)

Very interesting idea about the pond pots. And guess what? I've got a 4,000 gallon koi pond and they never even crossed my mind.


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## gonewild (Feb 9, 2011)

Candace said:


> What don't you like about the rock wool?



Visually it looks like a mess that would be swept up from a construction site. One of the main reasons to grow orchids is for the beauty and to bring nature into our lives. Rock wool just looks un-natural.
But if you want your greenhouse to look commercial and industrial then the above does not apply.

The cuttings that I have rooted in it have not produced roots as well as an organic or sand media. New roots start but don't grow out as well from stem cuttings on woody plants. I am using rock wool cubes for rooting an aroid plant and the roots do grow well. But the only reason I'm using the rock wool is because these plants will be used as aquatics in aquariums and the rock wool is inert and complies with soil less ag requirements. Probably once you learn how to grow in rock wool it would be good. One thing I did notice is that if you stick your finger into the rock wool it collapses and is no longer a good media in a pot.


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## NYEric (Feb 9, 2011)

Candace said:


> I've got a 4,000 gallon koi pond


If your weather permits it, why dont you just plant the phrags around that?


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## Ernie (Feb 9, 2011)

NYEric said:


> If your weather permits it, why dont you just plant the phrags around that?



Eric, that's actually sorta my inspiration for recommending the pond net baskets. I have some for the pond plants and was considering putting some Parvis in the net baskets and sinking them into the ground around the yard (and next to the pond which is a fraction of the size of Candace's). Figured it would be a good way to make them fairly naturalized, but mobile on those frosty nights. Was also considering using some with LECA in water trays.


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## Clark (Feb 9, 2011)

Sometimes when I feel like Wile E. Coyote, landscape fabric/weed barrier has come in handy. I have lined a pot or two with it.


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## NYEric (Feb 9, 2011)

For parvis I would think it would be too wet, but for thirsty phrags! :drool:


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## gonewild (Feb 9, 2011)

The concept of growing the Phrags in standing or moving water is so that the roots can grow out into the water. So you don't want a pot that will keep the roots inside the pot. What you want is a pot that has holes large enough so that when you need to repot the plant the roots don't get damaged.

I don't know how fine med pond mesh baskets are but a phrag might put roots right through it.


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## Candace (Feb 9, 2011)

Clark said:


> Sometimes when I feel like Wile E. Coyote, landscape fabric/weed barrier has come in handy. I have lined a pot or two with it.



Now that's a lovely idea too:> I have a bunch of it in the garage I've never used. Hmmmm.


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## Candace (Feb 9, 2011)

NYEric said:


> If your weather permits it, why dont you just plant the phrags around that?




Weather doesn't permit for me.


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## Shiva (Feb 9, 2011)

Clark said:


> Sometimes when I feel like Wile E. Coyote, landscape fabric/weed barrier has come in handy. I have lined a pot or two with it.



I love it when people remember their classics.


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## Ernie (Feb 10, 2011)

NYEric said:


> For parvis I would think it would be too wet, but for thirsty phrags! :drool:



The parvis would not sit in water (plants in big net pond pots in "typical" mix then sunk in ground), just the phrags (in LECA sitting in water).


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## NYEric (Feb 10, 2011)

I guess there are no openings in the bottom of these pots for water to come in thru then?


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## Ernie (Feb 10, 2011)

NYEric said:


> I guess there are no openings in the bottom of these pots for water to come in thru then?



No, fine mesh all around. They're baskets. Like this... http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/209415/product.web?gdftrk=gdfV2226_a_7c268_a_7c713_a_7c209415

Water doesn't hang around my yard much in most places- I have sand and very little soil.


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## NYEric (Feb 11, 2011)

OK, since you have little sitting water. BTW Ernie, just for fun, do you have a map of the area where you live? If you look at all the little circular lakes around your town, you should just be aware that, at one time that was solid water and the land was drained out. Eventually the aquifer below will collapse and the land areas will fall into sinkholes! Have a nice day. :evil:


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## Ernie (Feb 11, 2011)

NYEric said:


> OK, since you have little sitting water. BTW Ernie, just for fun, do you have a map of the area where you live? If you look at all the little circular lakes around your town, you should just be aware that, at one time that was solid water and the land was drained out. Eventually the aquifer below will collapse and the land areas will fall into sinkholes! Have a nice day. :evil:



What did I do to deserve that?  And when the great flood happens again, NY City and all of Florida will BOTH be part of Atlantis. Don't you watch disaster movies? :rollhappy:


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## NYEric (Feb 11, 2011)

With Nicholas Cage? forgetaboudit! I'll be in the mountains of Ecuador. 
Logan can come too. He knows how to repot plants, right?


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## gonewild (Feb 11, 2011)

:rollhappy:
Ecuador is going to be a pool of molten lava when North America sinks.


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## NYEric (Feb 11, 2011)

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!


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## gonewild (Feb 11, 2011)

NYEric said:


> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!



OK we won't let that happen.:evil:


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