# What's wrong with my Paph phillipinense?



## emydura (Nov 4, 2012)

For the third year in a row I have got heavily deformed flowers on my Paph phillipinense (laevigatum form). The pouches are badly crippled and sunken and the petals never really developed properly. It affects almost all of the flowers. The first two times I flowered it this plant was fine with no crippling. This is a division off a friends plant who has never had this problem. So it would appear to be a cultural problem. My friend thinks it is a result of the plant being too dehydrated. Possible as it nearer the fan than most of my orchids. But then the potting mix seems to stay quite moist and the plants around it don't seem to be affected. The plant itself looks fantastic. Lots of lush deep green healthy growths.

Any one else have this problem?


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## Roy (Nov 4, 2012)

David, I would have thought that the spikes wouldn't have developed as they have or the plant look as is does if was dehydration. If anything, maybe the plants growing too fast. Too much fertiliser ????


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## emydura (Nov 4, 2012)

Roy said:


> David, I would have thought that the spikes wouldn't have developed as they have or the plant look as is does if was dehydration. If anything, maybe the plants growing too fast. Too much fertiliser ????



This problem seems to have occurred under my different fertilsier regimes. I changed fertilisers late last year, but this problem has occurred well before that. I've also changed potting mix. Initially it was in a CHC mix and I repotted it in bark. But the flowers keep opening up deformed. Here is a photo from late 2009 -


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## emydura (Nov 4, 2012)

Initially it flowered fine. Here is a photo from early 2009.


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## fibre (Nov 4, 2012)

Hmm... I had a problem with a niveum some years ago. It had quite crippled flowers. Its damage was done by Californian Flower Thrips. But this problem affected more plants lately, not only this one.
Did you have a look at the bloom with a magnifying glass?


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## wjs2nd (Nov 4, 2012)

Hot weather can deform a bud when it's developing.


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## Rick (Nov 4, 2012)

I see a lot of brown bracts like they have been sun burnt or overheated. Almost like the spike is maturing and senescing too fast.

Do you still have a heating system running? Propane fumes?

Can you check EC of your potting mix?


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## Rick (Nov 4, 2012)

Is it possible that you have more magnesium going into the plants than Calcium?

There is really no absolute "do not exceed" concentration for magnesium, as long as it is less than the calcium concentration.


But Slipperking had crippled flowers for a while with Phrag longifolium types while Mg was boosted for an extended period.


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## polyantha (Nov 4, 2012)

Rick said:


> I see a lot of brown bracts like they have been sun burnt or overheated.



In fact this is normal for many philis..


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## emydura (Nov 4, 2012)

Rick said:


> I see a lot of brown bracts like they have been sun burnt or overheated. Almost like the spike is maturing and senescing too fast.
> 
> Do you still have a heating system running? Propane fumes?
> 
> Can you check EC of your potting mix?



Some of the flowers have been open for a while so are starting to age.. I find the flowers in all of my phillipinense don't last real long. I don't have gas heating, just electric. I think I agree with Polyantha on this.



Rick said:


> Is it possible that you have more magnesium going into the plants than Calcium?
> 
> There is really no absolute "do not exceed" concentration for magnesium, as long as it is less than the calcium concentration.



I don't think so. The calcium concentration in the CMB fertiliser is very high. Plus this problem has occurred under different fertiliser regimes. If it was related to fertiliser, you would think a lot more plants would be affected. While like everyone, I get the odd crippled flower, it is chronic in this plant and the crippling is so much more severe. Unless this plant is particularly sensitive.


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## emydura (Nov 4, 2012)

wjs2nd said:


> Hot weather can deform a bud when it's developing.



It definatly hasn't been too hot during the bud development which has occurred over late winter-early spring.


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## gonewild (Nov 4, 2012)

Maybe contracted a "rare" virus?
Maybe a genetic condition that manifests with old age?

What ever it is it is not pretty.


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## Stone (Nov 4, 2012)

Rogor can do this as can too much seaweed?


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## emydura (Nov 4, 2012)

Stone said:


> Rogor can do this as can too much seaweed?



I do apply Rogor from time to time when I have Mealy Bug problems, although I don't think I have applied it within the last 6 months. The CMB does have kelp in it but then I wasn't using it a year ago.


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## eggshells (Nov 4, 2012)

At first I was thinking of under watering but then you mentioned that it was kept moist all the time. Did you have some other plants blast their buds? Not particularly deformed.


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## emydura (Nov 4, 2012)

eggshells said:


> At first I was thinking of under watering but then you mentioned that it was kept moist all the time. Did you have some other plants blast their buds? Not particularly deformed.



Not really. My Lebaudeyanum blasted its first bud but the other 3 buds developed fine. That plant is a chronic bud blaster though.

I haven't given up on the under watering theory totally. I guess it could be possible that vigorous air movement results in the plant dehydrating even though the mix is still relatively moist. While it is relatively close to the fan, I don't think the air movement around the plant is incredibly strong and other plants around it seem to flower fine. Anyway I will move the plant to the other end of the glasshouse so it is as far away from the fans as possible.


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## gonewild (Nov 4, 2012)

What is the humidity of the air that is vigorously moving?

If it is environmental it probably is from ethylene gas.


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## emydura (Nov 4, 2012)

gonewild said:


> What is the humidity of the air that is vigorously moving?
> 
> If it is environmental it probably is from ethylene gas.



It varies. On cold nights whe the fogger is off, it can get below 50%. But during the day, when the weather is warm, around 60% plus.


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## Ozpaph (Nov 4, 2012)

I was going to suggest insectide/fungicide during early bud development. Any other deformed flowers recently or about to flower (goes to timing)?


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## gonewild (Nov 4, 2012)

Ethylene gas is a prime suspect since you say other plants often abort buds. Some individual plants are more sensitive to it.
Check for leaks in heater vents and other sources of Ethylene such as decaying vegetation, including aging flowers.


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## cnycharles (Nov 4, 2012)

you can have wet media and dehydrated flowers (to a degree), if the air moves very vigorously, the moisture can be pulled from plant tissue, to the point that the moisture in the pot can't be pulled up fast enough to replace it. but, like someone else already pointed out you would think that the buds would just blast before the flowers were forming. I have heard of other chemicals that can have quite a lasting effect on flowers, especially if the chemical was applied on a spot of tissue that eventually ended up growing into a flower stem. some chemicals, though they aren't listed as being 'systemic' in their control of a particular disease or such, may still be somewhat systemic and be inside of a plant and affect other things


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## emydura (Nov 5, 2012)

Ozpaph said:


> I was going to suggest insectide/fungicide during early bud development. Any other deformed flowers recently or about to flower (goes to timing)?



I get the odd deformity here and there. The Julius I posted recently had a very small deformity on the pouch of one flower. But the phillipinense is on another scale. Huge deformities on a regular basis on most of the flowers. 




gonewild said:


> Ethylene gas is a prime suspect since you say other plants often abort buds. Some individual plants are more sensitive to it.
> Check for leaks in heater vents and other sources of Ethylene such as decaying vegetation, including aging flowers.



I actually get very little blasting overall. Probably less than most people. 

Many explanations could explain the odd deformity here and there but I don't think can explain the consistent deformities since 2009. 

I think I am just going to have to experiment a bit. I have another two phillipinense in high bud, so it will be interesting to see how they turn out. They have never been a problem in the past though.


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## Linus_Cello (Nov 5, 2012)

Hope you flowers turn out normal next time. 
I had a first bloom Michael Koopowitz with very similar problems this past spring. I just assumed it was the plant was not mature enough. I wonder if it is genetic; maybe my MK has the bad genes that your philip (laev) has? Also, I didn't use seaweed extract before it bloomed (just started after it bloomed).

Have you looked at the roots? What's the root development like? If I recall, my MK didn't seem to have great roots like some of my other sand crosses.


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## Leo Schordje (Nov 5, 2012)

Running through the list of proposed causes, to me the 2 most likely routes to explore would be the 'location' of the plant, maybe swap positions with a philippinense that blooms normal. If the normal one blooms deformed where the deformed on was, then you know it was the location in the breeze from the fan. 

The other was the suggestion of thrips, or another of the small pests, false or true spider mite. Individual clones of plants can be more susceptible than the general population, and can harbor a persistent infestation that may stay localized to that one plant, at least for a while. I know myself, my eyes aren't good enough to see the actual creatures. I only know when these are around by the damage they do. Sometimes it is not easy to recognize the damage they are doing as being caused by an insect or mite. Maybe you have an uncommon thrip or spider mite that had come in from the 'bush', some eucalyptus eating mite or something, that attacks the odd orchid that is unusually susceptible to it. Plants do have immune responses, though not an immune system in the mammalian sense.

Those would be the 2 avenues I would look into next.


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## The Orchid Boy (Nov 5, 2012)

I had a paph that bloomed and I tried to straighten the pouch out with some wire and poked a tiny hole in tho pouch. I didn't think much of it, then a few days later it was severly crippled and deformed so I kind of think that it's a pest of some sort.


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## SlipperKing (Nov 5, 2012)

Very interesting and perplexing problem you have David. The only thing I can add is a similar situation that has recently occur on this side of the pond. Rick mention the Mg thing with Phrags I experienced but this isn't it. My deformed flowers are on a Phrag sargentianum. Originally potted in a bark mix with normal flowers, I decided to us up the remaining CHC with almost all my Phrags. They seemed to do great in it so what the heck. This is the first time for the sargentianum to be in CHC. With your philie issue, maybe there is something in/with CHC that can be toxic. At least it got me to thinking about my sargentianum. When I had the Mg/ deformities the Phrags were in CHC but, and emphasize but, the plants, themselves, never looked weird.
Maybe you philie needs to go through a growth/ bloom cycle or two in a bark mix to clear its system. I personally will be moving my Phrag back to a bark base mix.


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## emydura (Nov 6, 2012)

SlipperKing said:


> Very interesting and perplexing problem you have David. The only thing I can add is a similar situation that has recently occur on this side of the pond. Rick mention the Mg thing with Phrags I experienced but this isn't it. My deformed flowers are on a Phrag sargentianum. Originally potted in a bark mix with normal flowers, I decided to us up the remaining CHC with almost all my Phrags. They seemed to do great in it so what the heck. This is the first time for the sargentianum to be in CHC. With your philie issue, maybe there is something in/with CHC that can be toxic. At least it got me to thinking about my sargentianum. When I had the Mg/ deformities the Phrags were in CHC but, and emphasize but, the plants, themselves, never looked weird.
> Maybe you philie needs to go through a growth/ bloom cycle or two in a bark mix to clear its system. I personally will be moving my Phrag back to a bark base mix.



That is very interesting Rick. Your Phrag seems to have an identical history to this phillipinense. I initially flowered it well in bark. I then moved it over to CHC and have had problems ever since. I have moved it back to bark in the last year but the deformities still persist. Hopefully as you say this will eventually sort itself out over time.




Leo Schordje said:


> Running through the list of proposed causes, to me the 2 most likely routes to explore would be the 'location' of the plant, maybe swap positions with a philippinense that blooms normal. If the normal one blooms deformed where the deformed on was, then you know it was the location in the breeze from the fan.
> 
> The other was the suggestion of thrips, or another of the small pests, false or true spider mite. Individual clones of plants can be more susceptible than the general population, and can harbor a persistent infestation that may stay localized to that one plant, at least for a while. I know myself, my eyes aren't good enough to see the actual creatures. I only know when these are around by the damage they do. Sometimes it is not easy to recognize the damage they are doing as being caused by an insect or mite. Maybe you have an uncommon thrip or spider mite that had come in from the 'bush', some eucalyptus eating mite or something, that attacks the odd orchid that is unusually susceptible to it. Plants do have immune responses, though not an immune system in the mammalian sense.
> 
> Those would be the 2 avenues I would look into next.



Thanks Leo. I will definately move this plant to a new position and see if that helps. I looked over the plant and couldn't see any pests. The plant itself looks flawless.


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