# Suggestions for balanced fert available in the UK?



## garysan (Aug 2, 2016)

I've been using OrchidFocus for last year or so with ok results but wanted to move to a well-respected balanced alternative. I've tried Akernes Rain Mix with disappointing results but not sure where/what to try next.

I suspect 10 replies will yield 10 different answers but thought I'd ask all the same


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## Ray (Aug 2, 2016)

You are the second person I am aware of that has had issues with the Akerne Rain Mix, which I find baffling, as to the best of my knowledge, it is identical to the MSU fertilizer sold in the US, which is an extremely popular formula.

Can you share more about your feeding regimen and on "disappointing results"?


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## garysan (Aug 2, 2016)

Used at every watering as per instructions (actually spoke to Akernes guys at Spring Flower Extravaganza in London who confirmed that every single watering it should be used (phrags, paphs, phals, etc.).

I got leaf tip burn on some phrags and burnt/blackened roots on a couple of my phals. Paph's seemed unaffected but didn't seem vigorous either if you know what I mean. They all seem 'happier' on OrchidFocus (half strength for paphs and phrags).

Danni from Little Miss Orchid Girl also has had blackened/burnt roots with it although she's set up some sort of strainer to run the fert through before it hits the plants as not all of it seemed to be dissolving correctly. I was quite careful to make sure it had all dissolved before fertilising but possibly missed a few particles...?



Ray said:


> You are the second person I am aware of that has had issues with the Akerne Rain Mix, which I find baffling, as to the best of my knowledge, it is identical to the MSU fertilizer sold in the US, which is an extremely popular formula.
> 
> Can you share more about your feeding regimen and on "disappointing results"?


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## gonewild (Aug 2, 2016)

What is the chemical content of your water.
City water, well water or RO???

May not be the problem of the fertilizer but rather the water supply combined with the fertilizer.


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## garysan (Aug 2, 2016)

Rain water - don't know the TDS value but PH is 6.2.



gonewild said:


> What is the chemical content of your water.
> City water, well water or RO???
> 
> May not be the problem of the fertilizer but rather the water supply combined with the fertilizer.


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## gonewild (Aug 2, 2016)

garysan said:


> Rain water - don't know the TDS value but PH is 6.2.



Then the water is not likely the problem.


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## Ray (Aug 2, 2016)

Approximately how much do you mix per liter, and how often are you applying it?

One of the issues I have heard is the heterogeneity of the product - prills, flakes of different sizes, and dust. Same here, but if you make a liquid concentrate from a relatively large volume of the product, and use that liquid to dilute for application, you can trust that you are getting the full formula at all times.


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## garysan (Aug 2, 2016)

I was using it as recommended (1 level blue scoop per 2L rain water). I never thought about mixing how you've suggested. I was using it at every watering, again, as recommended.

I'm not fussed about going back and trying with the RainMix again to be honest. Some of my phrags are only just starting to properly recover and I thought a couple were going to be composted. Just looking for a suggestion of a balanced, liquid fert. I can get here in the UK.


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## Ray (Aug 2, 2016)

1) what is the volume of the blue scoop?

2) how frequently do you water?


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## naoki (Aug 2, 2016)

According to this:
https://orchidsupplies.co.uk/Akernes-rain-mix-orchid-food-fertiliser
1 g per blue spoon. So if it is same as MSU (13%N), it is 65ppmN, which could be a bit high for every irrigation for some plants, but it isn't too crazy, I guess. I have done 120ppmN MSU every watering for a year a couple years ago, and most of them were OK.


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## Masdyman (Aug 2, 2016)

Ray said:


> 1) what is the volume of the blue scoop?
> 
> 2) how frequently do you water?



Ray, As you know I sell this.
The spoon is 1ml to two litres.
I've just run a test of three batches of Rain mix and all adequately dissolved and all in the range of 250-350 ppm, level ish spoons, not heaped. This as you will know could give big differences.
I've used it for 7 years and not had such issues so I'm baffled, I've even directly sprayed my 100 Neo collection, no adverse reactions at all.
I've just done a video which I'll upload tonight to Love of Orchids & Gardening on YouTube. I show all three batches, pour on to three separate plants and see if there's any reactions.
Akerne's also water their whole collection 10000+ plants and sales plants, I know they aren't selective and again no problems.
I think what they did establish was they don't advocate stock solutions as you can get dissipation thus the solution becomes insoluble. I noticed this with powdered feed before and noticed calcium would just sit there when I once tried K lite.
Saying this I've mixed stock solutions and never noticed any adverse reactions, I do have a couple of indoor Phals which I was solely mixing from a strong stock solution and these two plants do have brown stains on the surface roots, they also get pushed to the max and fully dry before I water.
The powder for Dani looked like it contained too much moisture hence she noticed white specks once mixed, (CaS04) which had become insoluble.
Another reason was plants do not receive enough water so some of them dry out as a consequence. The roots in the pots are in a moist environment and can transport whatever moisture there is available to the plant, the ones in open air do not succeed in this and dry out.
Think they also established a drop of water(10-50uL-microlitre) in size on a root tip would contain 5-25ugr of Rain Mix at 1/2g per litre, which is insufficient to cause any burns so that was ruled out.

I'm still loving the stuff and see no reason not to use it.
Like Akerne's I also like to give them a good soak, I cannot tell you the pleasure I get on a Summers evening pouring water over them with a can rose like it's raining.
So to conclude maybe the key is to soak your plants and provide humidity.
I also think this is relevant to powdered feeds not just Rain Mix, there is another YouTuber that doesn't use Rain mix but another brand and she also gets some brown staining to the surface roots.

It would be good to get your thoughts on this Ray as you know MSU, powdered feeds and chemistry like no other for me.
I know very little on that side and to be honest haven't any interest to know that deeply.
Regards
Keith


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## Masdyman (Aug 2, 2016)

I've also had feedback from a few customers that it sorted leaf tip burn with Phrags and other orchids.
I've never flushed the pots in 7 years and the TDS value from a pour through test has been up to 300ppm maximum.


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## Masdyman (Aug 2, 2016)

For anyone that's interested here's the link to my basic test to determine consistency of TDS, pH and solubility from current and past batches.
https://youtu.be/Jvd6-ptd8rc
Thanks 
Keith


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## Redtwist (Aug 2, 2016)

Not sure if its very helpful garysan, but I'm also using OrchidFocus here in the UK (although I only have paphs and a few phals) and v.happy with the results so far. 
I feed with it at about quarter strength every other water, using a mix of dist./rain water, topped up with about 20% tap and a pinch of bicarb to pep the ph up a bit. The only other thing I use is epsom salts every few weeks. So far, no leaf tip or root burn I can see, though I always make sure I wet the roots with unfertilised water before feeding. Leaves are good and strong, though I think that is more down to good air movement - I get them outdoors whenever possible.
It might be nothing to do with the feed brand that is giving you disappointing results - the role of feeding can be over-stressed compared to that of light, humidity, fresh air, etc.


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## Masdyman (Aug 3, 2016)

I've now uploaded the result of my batch test for those that maybe interested.


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## garysan (Aug 6, 2016)

I've found a supplier here in the UK who sells Green Jungle which is (supposedly) specifically for Paphs & Phrags. Can anyone recommend it or shoot it full of holes?


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## Stone (Aug 7, 2016)

garysan said:


> I've found a supplier here in the UK who sells Green Jungle which is (supposedly) specifically for Paphs & Phrags. Can anyone recommend it or shoot it full of holes?



Depends what's in it. If it's a liquid, it's a waste of money. (mostly water and probably with precipitates in it. 
IMO, your best bet is to go to a hydroponic shop which sells a good quality 2 part powdered fert. Then get yourself a good quality ''regular'' powdered fertilizer with high urea and or ammonium. Mix the two to your feeding concentration requirements in water. (don't make concentrates) Use kelp and or organic ferts like fish occasionally. Later, when you get bored, you may want to play with trace elements.


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## phraggy (Aug 11, 2016)

To get away from different fertilizers I honestly believe that whatever fert you use shouldn't be above 400ppm on the tds. I water my paphs at the very least 5 times per week and 1 hour after every feed I flush the plants with RO water with a little bit of seaweed extract ( I consider this to be just one watering ). If you look on the site which is dealing with crown rot issues I have placed a pick of one of my plants which has been left outside under no cover and never fed for 4 months. I wonder if we get problems with just dosing the plants with too much fert -- whichever you use?

Ed


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## gonewild (Aug 11, 2016)

phraggy said:


> To get away from different fertilizers I honestly believe that whatever fert you use shouldn't be above 400ppm on the tds. I water my paphs at the very least 5 times per week and 1 hour after every feed I flush the plants with RO water with a little bit of seaweed extract ( I consider this to be just one watering ). If you look on the site which is dealing with crown rot issues I have placed a pick of one of my plants which has been left outside under no cover and never fed for 4 months. I wonder if we get problems with just dosing the plants with too much fert -- whichever you use?
> 
> Ed



Are you applying 400ppm of NPK+?
Or do you mean fertilizer combined with source water.

The overdosing concept is what led to the K-lite formula.


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## gego (Aug 11, 2016)

Ed, do you feed each watering? Seems like that's what you mean but just want to check with you. But it makes sense since you are flushing after feeding.


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## Stone (Aug 11, 2016)

gonewild said:


> The overdosing concept is what led to the K-lite formula.



Rick's belief that K was the source of all troubles is what led to the K-lite formula.

The overdosing concept has been around for a century! (or at least 50 years)
Quote Gilbert 1951 ''Cypripediums do better when regularly repotted into fresh compost rather than giving liquid manure''
Paraphrase Rentoul in the 80's ''The feeding solution should be so diluted as to render it innocuous when given at every watering''


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## Ozpaph (Aug 12, 2016)

Stone said:


> Depends what's in it. If it's a liquid, it's a waste of money. (mostly water and probably with precipitates in it.
> IMO, your best bet is to go to a hydroponic shop which sells a good quality 2 part powdered fert. Then get yourself a good quality ''regular'' powdered fertilizer with high urea and or ammonium. Mix the two to your feeding concentration requirements in water. (don't make concentrates) Use kelp and or organic ferts like fish occasionally. Later, when you get bored, you may want to play with trace elements.



Mike, do you use hydro based fertilizers? which? Thanks


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## Stone (Aug 12, 2016)

Ozpaph said:


> Mike, do you use hydro based fertilizers? which? Thanks



I use this: http://www.gardensmartshop.com/Powder_Nutrients_p/117.htm (the powder not the liquid)

together with Manutec ''Orchid'' or ''Bloom Booster'' or Campbells yellow if you want more P. ( I like the fact that these are low in Fe )

Manutec also makes a good 2 part hydro fert which has a touch of ammonium in it.


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## phraggy (Aug 12, 2016)

gego said:


> Ed, do you feed each watering? Seems like that's what you mean but just want to check with you. But it makes sense since you are flushing after feeding.


.

Today I fed with Tomorite + seaweed extract in RO water at 385ppm. I flushed thru' with RO water only about i hour later. The weather is dull here with a temp of 18c so I will give the greenhouse a miss tomorrow but proceed as usual the day afterwards.

Ed


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## gego (Aug 12, 2016)

Tomorite is high potash + seaweed, not a K-lite fan? Is this your regular feed or just once in a few of your regular feed?


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## Ozpaph (Aug 13, 2016)

Stone said:


> I use this: http://www.gardensmartshop.com/Powder_Nutrients_p/117.htm (the powder not the liquid)



Thanks. Are the ingredients listed somewhere?


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## phraggy (Aug 13, 2016)

gego said:


> Tomorite is high potash + seaweed, not a K-lite fan? Is this your regular feed or just once in a few of your regular feed?



Hi gego. I alternate the feed between Tomorite, phostrogen and akernes rain mix with seaweed extract used at nearly every dosing. Always flushed after each feeding. Seems to be working OK for me so I'm not doing any changes.
Although I have placed a roth out in the open air to get the rain and differing heat with plenty of wind movement as an experiment.

Ed


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## gonewild (Aug 13, 2016)

phraggy said:


> Although I have placed a roth out in the open air to get the rain and differing heat with plenty of wind movement as an experiment.
> Ed



Are you gong to continue the same feeding schedule/amount/method as if it did not get rain?


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## phraggy (Aug 13, 2016)

gonewild said:


> Are you gong to continue the same feeding schedule/amount/method as if it did not get rain?


. 

Hi Lance. Definitely I'm not going to feed the roth I will leave it to it's own devises with the exeption that if we get short of rain ( if only!!) I will not let the plant dry out too long so will water with RO just to keep it ticking over.
As I've said before I've got my Angraecums and renantheras outside and I haven't fed them for 4 months. Most of the time they are wet not only in the pots but also in the crowns, The only thing I have observed is an abundant growth in arial roots and good growth in the crowns even though they are almost constantly flooded. I wonder when they start producing flower stems in September will they still be as fruitful.

Ed


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## Stone (Aug 13, 2016)

Ozpaph said:


> Thanks. Are the ingredients listed somewhere?



The labels have come off my jars but the ingredients are similar to this.
No ammonium and I think the P is 3% but much the same.
http://www.solublefertilisers.com.au/index.php/soluble-fertilisers/for-hydroponics/


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## Brabantia (Aug 15, 2016)

Stone said:


> The labels have come off my jars but the ingredients are similar to this.
> No ammonium and I think the P is 3% but much the same.
> http://www.solublefertilisers.com.au/index.php/soluble-fertilisers/for-hydroponics/


A lot for Potassium in this one ! Why ?

Envoyé de mon Nexus 9 en utilisant Tapatalk


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## Ozpaph (Aug 16, 2016)

Thanks. Yes, lots of K+......


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## Stone (Aug 16, 2016)

Brabantia said:


> A lot for Potassium in this one ! Why ?
> 
> Envoyé de mon Nexus 9 en utilisant Tapatalk



Why not?

Don't forget it's a 2 part fert. You can add as much N as you want.
The mixing instructions are for annual crops (usually tomatoes and the like)
If you follow them you will end up with a K/N ratio of 1.2 (same as MSU)
If you go 50/50 you end up with a K/N ratio of 0.8

Litter plus throughfall in lower montane New Guinea habitat delivers K/N of 0.82

So what exactly is the problem?


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