# AOS judging fees increased



## ehanes7612 (Apr 13, 2018)

So, let me get this right..judging has decreased, less people interested in having their plants judged and AOS is hurting for membership ..so they increase their fees for awards by 33 %?

Well, I am officially done with the AOS


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## SlipperFan (Apr 13, 2018)

Prices on everything go up periodically. That's the nature of living today.

No, I'm not happy about the price increase.


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## Tom Reddick (Apr 14, 2018)

News to me, but in a standard business model the price increase is a common reality with a commodity that is declining in general demand but still of great importance to a certain audience. All about covering fixed costs, and given how prior leadership irresponsibly decimated the finances of that organization, I suspect they had little choice.


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## Linus_Cello (Apr 14, 2018)

When was the last price increase?


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## Ray (Apr 14, 2018)

For commercial entities, for whom awards are a way to increase the value and demand for their clones, the cost of the award is insignificant and can be written off as a business expense.

An increase may discourage some private growers from showing their plants, but not the commercial folks, who seem to already get the majority of the awards.


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## ehanes7612 (Apr 14, 2018)

TBH, it really doesn't matter to me anymore ...AOS no longer has a judging center in or around seattle. Any small desire to drive over 300 miles was killed by this increase. I wonder when there will be absolutely no judging in the Northwest, since the main reason why they stopped IN Seattle was because of the inability to attract new apprentices


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## Spaph (Apr 16, 2018)

It is unfortunate about the Seattle center.
If you are a member of the AOS awards are much cheaper than non member. I believe $60 non member, $40 for a member.


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## orchidmaven (Feb 17, 2019)

ehanes7612 said:


> TBH, it really doesn't matter to me anymore ...AOS no longer has a judging center in or around seattle. Any small desire to drive over 300 miles was killed by this increase. I wonder when there will be absolutely no judging in the Northwest, since the main reason why they stopped IN Seattle was because of the inability to attract new apprentices


The Seattle judging center closure is a sad state of affairs for everyone in the once vibrant Orchid Growing Pacific Northwest Region. When orchid growers and local societies do not support the judging centers by bringing in plants, getting involved and participating, this is what happens. The Seattle Judging Center was once one of the most exciting centers with many Orchid Growers both commercial and private. Bringing plants to be judged is not just about getting awards. It's about educating the judges and hobby growers about what is being grown, what is possible, what is exceptional. The local societies belong to you as does the health and well being of the local judging centers. If you don't support either, expect a weak and unhealthy orchid community in your area. Seattle was once a vibrant orchid growing community and one I remember quite well, not that long ago.


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## ehanes7612 (Feb 17, 2019)

orchidmaven said:


> The Seattle judging center closure is a sad state of affairs for everyone in the once vibrant Orchid Growing Pacific Northwest Region. When orchid growers and local societies do not support the judging centers by bringing in plants, getting involved and participating, this is what happens. The Seattle Judging Center was once one of the most exciting centers with many Orchid Growers both commercial and private. Bringing plants to be judged is not just about getting awards. It's about educating the judges and hobby growers about what is being grown, what is possible, what is exceptional. The local societies belong to you as does the health and well being of the local judging centers. If you don't support either, expect a weak and unhealthy orchid community in your area. Seattle was once a vibrant orchid growing community and one I remember quite well, not that long ago.



The ease of using the internet for selling, especially Ebay, diluted any need for a community that required physical presence in a room for the exchange of ideas and orchids. Orchid businesses no longer need the AOS (and I hate to say it, their politics) to function...as well as those sellers (and hobbyists) who feel the AOS and their judging criteria is off the mark and don't want to support the idea of judging. I know there was a lot of bad blood created between orchid businesses and judging centers in the 90's with regards to what got awards and what did not. (Personally, I thought the judges at NWOS (seattle) were very astute in their abilities).

I remember what it was like in the nineties as well for a hobbyist. The NWOS display and sales in the Feb Flower and Garden show in Seattle was quite a spectacle. I remember the excitement of spring rolling around and planning my weekends for trips along the northwest from the flower and garden show to shows in central Oregon..meeting with people who were legends in the orchid community. Times have changed ..people don't need the Orchid Society anymore, at least in the capacity that the Orchid Society tries to maintain itself..but I don't know a solution to that myself. It's not enough to say they need our support..people need a strong incentive to join a club and so far the AOS has failed on pretty much every effort to gain back that support...yet, Orchid growing as a hobby is stronger than ever.


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## Rob in Puyallup (Feb 18, 2019)

Good Old Days...

I first joined the Tacoma Orchid Society way back in 1975 when I was 15 ... I miss the interesting meetings that tended to be very informative usually led by one of the local AOS judges. I miss the Beall Orchid Co over on Vashon Island, Orchids Unlimited and Cascade Orchids in Tacoma. I miss the friendships with folks old enough to be my grandparents all of them long gone. I miss the days of purchasing orchids with labels that listed parentage. I, too, miss the huge orchid show and sales areas at the Flower and Garden Show at the convention center ..


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## tomp (Feb 18, 2019)

orchidmaven said:


> The Seattle judging center closure is a sad state of affairs for everyone in the once vibrant Orchid Growing Pacific Northwest Region. When orchid growers and local societies do not support the judging centers by bringing in plants, getting involved and participating, this is what happens. The Seattle Judging Center was once one of the most exciting centers with many Orchid Growers both commercial and private. Bringing plants to be judged is not just about getting awards. It's about educating the judges and hobby growers about what is being grown, what is possible, what is exceptional. The local societies belong to you as does the health and well being of the local judging centers. If you don't support either, expect a weak and unhealthy orchid community in your area. Seattle was once a vibrant orchid growing community and one I remember quite well, not that long ago.


Well said. If you do not support Local and Speciality you get big box indifference


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## ehanes7612 (Feb 18, 2019)

tomp said:


> Well said. If you do not support Local and Speciality you get big box indifference



Seattle orchid is a small operation that brokers plants. They are constantly getting new items from around the world and they can be quite diverse. They have an excellent website and an excellent reputation and real easy to work with. Ebay sellers range from hobbyists like me to places like larger operations like Orchids unlimited..selling all kinds of stuff. There is no lack of support for local or specialty ...the internet has made Orchid Societies obsolete, at least in their ability to market themselves as vital to the community. They have trouble reaching out to new people and they lack innovative and creative ideas for their own survival. This is not just me saying this but people on this board as well as many conversations I have had in person. Seattle is still a vibrant orchid growing community as well as many places..it's just that the AOS doesnt have a monopoly on the structure anymore ...in fact, the community is more diverse than ever, even in the face of stricter CITES regulations compared to decades ago. So if the interest in orchid growing is the importance here , then all the boxes are checked. We have boards like this that consolidate expertise and we have easy access to all types of orchids and breeding with the push of a button. If the important thing is to keep alive an outdated and impotent structure....?


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## ehanes7612 (Feb 18, 2019)

I find it interesting that we are discussing this in light of the new changes for Slippertalk


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## orchidmaven (Feb 19, 2019)

As I travel and speak to Orchid Societies around the country there are indeed Orchid Societies that are quite vibrant and in no danger of becoming obsolete. Anyone who had visited the Florida region certainly knows the incredible number of local members that participate not only in their own society but several. The Pacific South Region has Orchid Shows all through the year without member participation this would not be possible. The National Capital Orchid Society serving the greater Washington DC area hosts the Paph Forum each year bringing in speakers and participants from all over the country. My own local Orchid Society the Portland Orchid Society holds two Orchid Auctions a year and in the past has held two Orchid Shows Fall and Spring with Orchid Judging at our regular membership meeting once a year. The local Orchid Societies are well represented at Region Judging each and every month in Kaiser, Oregon.

I assure you sitting in front of the computer screen is not the same as attending the Santa Barbara International Orchid Show, The Pacific Orchid Exposition, the International Slipper Symposium, etc...…..


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## mrhappyrotter (Feb 19, 2019)

ehanes7612 said:


> I find it interesting that we are discussing this in light of the new changes for Slippertalk



I'm glad, too. The forum software actually works now! People can login, easily see what they've missed (using the new posts link), and discuss/contribute. Lots of the conversations in these less active/visible sections rarely if ever crossed my eyes until now because I rarely took the time to click through them all individually when I stopped in to see the latest paph and phrag photos. I really do hope that this helps spur activity and conversation, since before I felt like it was a hindrance and knew it was for me personally.



ehanes7612 said:


> Seattle orchid is a small operation that brokers plants. [...] They have an excellent website and an excellent reputation and real easy to work with.



I'm going to be that person because I've been personally burned more times than I'm proud to admit (I really like to give folks the benefit of the doubt) and I've read enough similar stories to know I'm not alone: I would hardly call their reputation excellent. For those of us who aren't locals that can stop in, their reputation is questionable, for good reason in my opinion. They do have a nice website, though, so I won't disagree there.


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## ehanes7612 (Feb 19, 2019)

"""I'm going to be that person because I've been personally burned more times than I'm proud to admit (I really like to give folks the benefit of the doubt) and I've read enough similar stories to know I'm not alone: I would hardly call their reputation excellent. For those of us who aren't locals that can stop in, their reputation is questionable, for good reason in my opinion. They do have a nice website, though, so I won't disagree there."""

+Quote doesnt work so well

anyway, I knew I would get in trouble for saying that...having worked there myself, I should know that they don't have an excellent reputation..let me rephrase...they are interesting enough for new people to engage in their business..I will leave it at that...lol


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## ehanes7612 (Feb 19, 2019)

orchidmaven said:


> As I travel and speak to Orchid Societies around the country there are indeed Orchid Societies that are quite vibrant and in no danger of becoming obsolete. Anyone who had visited the Florida region certainly knows the incredible number of local members that participate not only in their own society but several. The Pacific South Region has Orchid Shows all through the year without member participation this would not be possible. The National Capital Orchid Society serving the greater Washington DC area hosts the Paph Forum each year bringing in speakers and participants from all over the country. My own local Orchid Society the Portland Orchid Society holds two Orchid Auctions a year and in the past has held two Orchid Shows Fall and Spring with Orchid Judging at our regular membership meeting once a year. The local Orchid Societies are well represented at Region Judging each and every month in Kaiser, Oregon.
> 
> I assure you sitting in front of the computer screen is not the same as attending the Santa Barbara International Orchid Show, The Pacific Orchid Exposition, the International Slipper Symposium, etc...…..



yeah, Portland shows are about as exciting as the ones in Seattle. I stopped going to all Northwest regional shows because they lack the ability to bring in a diverse set of vendors as well as a diverse showing of plants and just participation in general. (although I keep checking each year, but nothing seems to change). I have been to both shows by POS and OOS..yeah, I suspect the politics between both your organizations had something to do with lack of attendance to shows. Does Portland really need two Orchid societies????? I dont know. Southern California shows will probably always have great support...they can draw from millions of people around the region (millions of people who don't have to even be members) and vendors who know their time wont be wasted. I talk to vendors, I know what's up with their concerns. Same with Florida, especially southern Fla. So a few regions will survive and do well while AOS slips into oblivion, struggling to survive. Sitting in front of a computer screen may not be the same..but when I can get anything I want (pretty much) and don't have to travel far and wide to get it...the choice is kinda obvious. Essentially, growing is a million times more important than face to face interactions. ANd why would a vendor sell at an Orchid show , lose 20 % of their sales to fees or whatever fees , lose on traveling expenses, when they can sell online for less cost and guaranteed sales?? or just go to guaranteed shows like in Socal. Makes no sense to me.

The Paph forum is exactly the kind of creativity that is needed for an an Orchid society...too bad more societies don't catch on to being more creative


I can tell you this...when NWOS books someone like Sam Tsui...it gets a lot of attention and the room is standing room only and a lot of people order from him. But , he hasn't been booked in three years (which is weird because he waives his speaking fees for a minimum order from the Orchid society as a group).

Given the centrality of the Oregon regional judging I can see that they would have a lot of participation. Wasn't there a time when the entire Pac Northwest regional judges held their monthly judgings in the Tacoma area?

IDK, I do long for the old days..but when I remember the old days and compare the availibility of plants (because of the internet)...it's so much better now..so it's a pleasant tradeoff..one that I can live with just fine..and apparently, so can a lot of other people


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## orchidmaven (Feb 19, 2019)

A.O.S. is not in danger of slipping into oblivion nor struggling to survive rest assured. As a commercial grower and hobbyist at hart, nothing can compare to attending a local orchid society meeting and engaging with the speaker, exchanging ideas and growing techniques.
The different color forms of Dendrobium cuthbertsonii, Miltoniopsis vexillaria alba FCC/RHS original plant from 1910, Dracula gorgona xanthina 'Colomborguidea' FCC/AOS, and other rare plants offered at the Portland Orchid Society annual auction could not be found anywhere online.
Attending symposiums, local orchid society meetings, interacting with other's with a desire to hybridize and grow their own seedling in-vito, I have learned much more than I ever could sitting in front of a computer screen. While attending the Santa Barbara International Orchid Show I had the chance to have lunch with Kobsukh Kaenratana of Pakkret Floriculture, Thailand and spent the next hour or so discussing ploidy induction. I learned more in that hour than anything available online. Yes there are some very exciting orchid libraries available online offering the Orchid Review Magazines from it's inception, along with many rare volumes from the Missouri Botanical Library, The Biodiversity Heritage Library, etc. Perhaps it's just me, but I prefer interacting with friends and like minded orchid aficionados at the local meetings and even our open house and open weekends when local orchid society members enjoy each other's company. By the way, there use to be three orchid society's in the PDX area and yes, quite exciting to have two!


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## ehanes7612 (Feb 20, 2019)

ok


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## Linus_Cello (Feb 20, 2019)

Oh deer 


orchidmaven said:


> As a commercial grower and hobbyist at hart, nothing can compare to attending a local orchid society meeting and engaging with the speaker, exchanging ideas and growing techniques.


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## Silverwhisp (Feb 20, 2019)

Linus_Cello said:


> Oh deer



Pun? What pun?


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## SlipperFan (Feb 20, 2019)

I agree with orchidmaven. Orchid shows and society meetings are a great way to see and interact with orchids and their growers. Yes, I use the internet. A lot! I've found good resources for orchids I can't get locally, and vendors who are honest and have quality products. But there is nothing like going to an orchid show and being able to choose from thousands of blooming plants, as well as seeing the variety of plants in the many displays both from societies and vendors. 

Our show is this coming weekend, and I wouldn't want to be anywhere else during that time. If you want to come, and/or learn about who will be participating, please go to: https://www.greaterlansingorchidsociety.com/GLOSShow.html

As for the AOS - yes, they've had problems. But they are the group that is dedicated to the kingdom I love. Perhaps the question should not be "what can I get from them" but rather, "how can I support them so they continue to advocate for our common passion?"


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## ehanes7612 (Feb 20, 2019)

SlipperFan said:


> I agree with orchidmaven. Orchid shows and society meetings are a great way to see and interact with orchids and their growers. Yes, I use the internet. A lot! I've found good resources for orchids I can't get locally, and vendors who are honest and have quality products. But there is nothing like going to an orchid show and being able to choose from thousands of blooming plants, as well as seeing the variety of plants in the many displays both from societies and vendors.
> 
> Our show is this coming weekend, and I wouldn't want to be anywhere else during that time. If you want to come, and/or learn about who will be participating, please go to: https://www.greaterlansingorchidsociety.com/GLOSShow.html
> 
> As for the AOS - yes, they've had problems. But they are the group that is dedicated to the kingdom I love. Perhaps the question should not be "what can I get from them" but rather, "how can I support them so they continue to advocate for our common passion?"




Unfortunately, there has not been an orchid show like that in the northwest in years...I stopped going to Portland's shows because vendors I wanted to see stop going..and literally the last time I was at an orchid show in Portland, at the convention center, I was one of three people buying orchids in the early afternoon. I remember talking to Andy (Andy's orchids) ..he said he probably couldn't afford to come up anymore because of the lack of turnout. I was seriously bummed. That was the Oregon Orchid Society show. I also went to the POS shows at the exhibition hall...maybe five vendors in a small space carved out during the home remodeling show. Seattle shows have not been much better. I don't disagree that shows are a great way to meet people..if people show up..got tired of wasting my time with these shows here in my region. Maybe it will get back to being something worthwhile to do...I check their websites every year...same old stuff. I was involved with my orchid society a lot more in the 90's , even wanted to be a judge ,started mentoring under Allen Clark. Got tired of the politics and people (meaning judges) who were more discouraging rather than being encouraging. You're right though, it takes a passion from people to have an institution prosper..I am just not seeing it from enough people in this region. I know I have no faith in it.


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## Johntinner (Feb 20, 2019)

That shut down is unfortunate for people of the aos. Hopefully the local societies can stay strong and can keep the shows going, I was told by a longtime orchid society member that politics of the aos was a problem


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## ehanes7612 (Feb 20, 2019)

Maybe this is just a regional issue unique to the Northwest. Oregon and Washington shows don't seem to have the influence to attract vendors unless those vendors are local or/and on their show circuit like Ecuagenera. But Oregon and Washington have lost a lot of local vendors that were very experienced and had great breeding programs (white river orchids, bill leonard, roger crawford, clackamas orchids, just off the top of my head). Now that I think more of it, Portland had a string of good to great shows in the 90's up until the AOS meeting show in May 2002.Everything seemed to go downhill from there. 

Seattle orchid has no interest in being part of those shows anymore, they tried..but with the internet they see no reason to try to hustle their plants at shows and pay fees they cant recoup. I rarely see paph growers from other regions come up to the Northwest to speak and sell. Just no incentive ?? I dont know. Like I said earlier, when Sam Tsui shows up , people show up ...but no one seems to book him over here anymore. Back in the 90's, local vendors were a main reason why orchid shows here were so good..most of those are gone now..and replaced by ebay or seattleorchid.com as well as other websites. I have been to shows in SoCal , Chicago area and have heard about the Redlands show..they put the Northwest to shame...maybe it's the type of people that are attracted to the NW...just not as interested in clubs as much because of everything else one can do.


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## ehanes7612 (Feb 20, 2019)

I just looked at Fred Clarke's speaking schedule...a very prolific speaker, incredible breeder ...goes everywhere..well, everywhere except the US NW. Why is that??????? Anyway, the NW is still a great place to live and grow orchids.
https://www.sunsetvalleyorchids.com/htm/speaking.html


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## SlipperFan (Feb 22, 2019)

ehanes7612 said:


> I just looked at Fred Clarke's speaking schedule...a very prolific speaker, incredible breeder ...goes everywhere..well, everywhere except the US NW. Why is that??????? Anyway, the NW is still a great place to live and grow orchids.
> https://www.sunsetvalleyorchids.com/htm/speaking.html


Fred goes where he is invited?


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## Ray (Feb 22, 2019)

I don't have a great deal of experience here, but let me throw out a couple of comments:

Ed asked why a vendor would sell at shows, having to pay a commission, travel expenses, etc., rather than just online. Well, for one thing, at a well attended show, one is likely to sell a hell of a lot more than one would via internet orders in that same time period, and it is actually likely that those internet orders will still be there upon returning from the show.

Secondly, (0.80 x a large number) - costs > much smaller number.

I often noted that show prices are greater than website prices, too.

Switching gears, I noticed nobody has brought up the influences that demographics and climate can have on the size and vibrancy of local orchid societies.

In my travels, it appears that locales that have more retirees, or at least an older population, tend to have more active societies (at least until the membership gets too old). Younger generations tend to be more comfortable with being online, so would naturally lean more in that direction than going to meetings, shows and nurseries, as is more the case with older folks.

Also, if one lives where orchid growing can be easily accomplished without the need for a greenhouse, tons of indoor space or artificial lighting, you can expect to see its popularity to increase, carting the "vibrancy" of the orchid community to new heights.

Hence the reason there is so much activity in Florida, where both situations apply.


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## mrhappyrotter (Feb 22, 2019)

My local society meetings are during the week in the evening. In the 10+ years I've lived in the area, there was only a 1 year span where my schedule was flexible enough and I lived close enough to possibly attend meetings without having to move mountains to make it happen. A predictable 9 - 5, M - F job is a pipe dream for a lot of people, especially younger folks. If my situation is somewhat common, and I definitely think it is, then it suggests the pool of potential members who are able to attend regularly is becoming more limited.

Also, my local society meets in a very inconvenient place for my situation. Given the time of day, for many people who live or work in Raleigh, it can take them as long or longer to drive to the center of Durham where the local society meets than it would for a lot of people who live and work in Durham to drive to the next closest society meeting, which as far as I'm aware is in Greensboro. This is due to the sheer size of Raleigh, but also due to the amount of traffic congestion in the evenings during the work week when meetings take place. By choosing to have the meetings when and where they are, it automatically limits the number of people who are willing and able to attend.

My guess is that the current time and location does work for most of the current members, so to them it makes sense to meet there, and I'm not faulting them for that. Truthfully, they may not even be experiencing a drop in participation/membership. But, if this type of decision making is the general trend, I'm certain it contributes to the general issue of dwindling participation.


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## ehanes7612 (Feb 22, 2019)

Ray said:


> I don't have a great deal of experience here, but let me throw out a couple of comments:
> 
> Ed asked why a vendor would sell at shows, having to pay a commission, travel expenses, etc., rather than just online. Well, for one thing, at a well attended show, one is likely to sell a hell of a lot more than one would via internet orders in that same time period, and it is actually likely that those internet orders will still be there upon returning from the show.



All of what I said was in the context of low attendance at shows. It was the impetus of all the recent posts.

Yep, Florida and California have a lot of retirees but also climates in which a lot of money does not have to be spent for optimum temperatures..especially in winter

BTW, artificial lighting is very popular in the northwest .. lots of stores here that sell ( because of pot and hydro culture ) and we even have stores that sell plants habituated under lights ( seattle has a very popular store called indoor sun shoppe)


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## ehanes7612 (Feb 22, 2019)

mrhappyrotter said:


> My local society meetings are during the week in the evening. In the 10+ years I've lived in the area, there was only a 1 year span where my schedule was flexible enough and I lived close enough to possibly attend meetings without having to move mountains to make it happen. A predictable 9 - 5, M - F job is a pipe dream for a lot of people, especially younger folks. If my situation is somewhat common, and I definitely think it is, then it suggests the pool of potential members who are able to attend regularly is becoming more limited.
> 
> Also, my local society meets in a very inconvenient place for my situation. Given the time of day, for many people who live or work in Raleigh, it can take them as long or longer to drive to the center of Durham where the local society meets than it would for a lot of people who live and work in Durham to drive to the next closest society meeting, which as far as I'm aware is in Greensboro. This is due to the sheer size of Raleigh, but also due to the amount of traffic congestion in the evenings during the work week when meetings take place. By choosing to have the meetings when and where they are, it automatically limits the number of people who are willing and able to attend.
> 
> My guess is that the current time and location does work for most of the current members, so to them it makes sense to meet there, and I'm not faulting them for that. Truthfully, they may not even be experiencing a drop in participation/membership. But, if this type of decision making is the general trend, I'm certain it contributes to the general issue of dwindling participation.





I imagine every society has unique problems that some overcome and some cant and burnout of older members happens quicker as new people are less frequent. My orchid society has had issues with paying people for their table sales (i know this first hand), so I never sell at meetings anymore. They aren't that good at getting the word out of shows and meetings, so I suspect this is the reason new people are hard to come by. Plus they do not have a good relationship with Seattle orchid , so Seattle orchid will probably not care to push people toward the society...which is unfortunate as in the past , vendors were really important for steering newbies to orchid shows and meetings. I suspect this is more prevalent overall these days.


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## ehanes7612 (Feb 23, 2019)

SlipperFan said:


> Fred goes where he is invited?



Bingo !


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## tomp (Feb 23, 2019)

Orchidmaven is spot on.
Fred Clark is a great speaker. There are actually several who are willing to travel. I often recruit speakers at orchid shows.

Orchid Societies can be hard work. they generally consist of two types of members. Those willing to work to make them function and grow and those who just wish to show up and be entertained (true of most “clubs). As with most things your reward is a function of effort. I find that when educating the public is actually practiced by a society new membership grows. 

The AOS has had problems but the current president is working very hard to fix what she can. The magazine and the webinars are both improved and relevant. The judging system is still relevant for the intended audience.

I use the internet for acquiring some things but if possible would rather meet and support the local and or domestic growers and suppliers. If we don’t they won’t be there. More true everyday.


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## ehanes7612 (Feb 23, 2019)

well, like I said, if attendance of orchid shows in the northwest (oregon included) is any indication of the health of this region's orchid societies..then , well...this region is in trouble...oh wait, didn't Seattle lose its judging center also?????

Optimism is great but when you mix optimism with denial , problems arise. But you know, I have seen enough on this thread to be very pessimistic about orchid societies in general for the future..lots of responses just reinforcing my beliefs.

But Tomp, you have brought up a key factor in how the orchid world works. Those societies who catch on that the key to prospering is entertainment will do well (which, if done right can be very educational),... those who don't , won't. Nothing worse than boredom to kill a group/club


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