# Cloning Paph's



## JAB (Dec 24, 2015)

Here is an interesting paper from a few years back on cloning Paphiopedilum (which was once thought impossible): http://www.academicjournals.org/…/article-full…/AF1EC6E29634

Does anyone have any first hand experience with cloning Paph's? I have experience with cloning terrestrials but not orchids at all.

Thanks
JAB


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## troy (Dec 24, 2015)

Can not clone paphs & phrags


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## Linus_Cello (Dec 24, 2015)

JAB said:


> I have experience with cloning terrestrials but not orchids at all.
> 
> Thanks
> JAB



Does this include cyprepediums? There are cloned cyps.


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## valenzino (Dec 24, 2015)

Paph cloning is not impossible,and there are already on the market cloned Paph. Maudiae type...i seen personally process and plants in Taiwan....also have been made many times in the past....the problem is that is not an efficient system for many reasons,(cost,damaging motherplant,mortality,seedling growth issues...)and so not much seedlings are produced....and so reproducing by seeds still the best way


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## troy (Dec 24, 2015)

Cloning is the most known way to reproduce paphs & phrags only select people do it lol...


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## TyroneGenade (Dec 24, 2015)

Jab, can you please give the reference information for the link you sent. If I click I get a firewall asking for a password with no information regarding the paper.

Thanks


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## SlipperFan (Dec 24, 2015)

Me too, Tyrone.


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## John M (Dec 26, 2015)

troy said:


> Can not clone paphs & phrags



Yes, it is possible. Orchids Limited did it with Phrag. besseae from a protocorm (clonal name 'Icarus') and Oak Hill Gardens did it with Phrag. Sedenii 'Blush' from a flower stem growing tip.


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## troy (Dec 26, 2015)

Excellent!!! I'm sure in no time at all ripening seed pods and sending off for flask will be nonexistent, why go through all that trouble and time 3-7 years. Cloning max 1 yr.


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## NYEric (Dec 26, 2015)

Read what Valentino wrote. He is one of the people I would listen to and believe when it comes to Paph culture and breeding.


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## Ozpaph (Dec 26, 2015)

Nicky Zurcher has cloned paphs. He was Radcliffe's head grower for many years, I understand.

His catalogue lists a mericloned paph and his Facebook page (link in catalogue) shows a group of cloned paphs including Orchilla 'Chilton'.

http://www.nickysslippers.com.au/wp...s-Slippers-Orchid-Catalogue-December-2015.pdf


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## troy (Dec 26, 2015)

In all honesty, I am digusted at having to wait 1-2 years for a flask so, I would really like to see cloning of slippers more successful, although I've told that the success rate is very low because of genetics of the slippers


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## gonewild (Dec 26, 2015)

troy said:


> In all honesty, I am digusted at having to wait 1-2 years for a flask so, I would really like to see cloning of slippers more successful, although I've told that the success rate is very low because of genetics of the slippers



Cloning actually takes longer than seeds and as hobbyist you would never be able to afford to have a plant cloned. So I don't see how this will keep you from having to wait. 

Would you buy a flask of Paphs and know that every one of the 30 plants were going to be exactly alike after growing them for several years?
Or are you just hoping to be able to buy better quality flowers cheaper?


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## troy (Dec 26, 2015)

I've been missinformed then about cloning, I think it's absurd sending a seed pod off then getting a flask 1- 3 years later


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## John M (Dec 27, 2015)

troy said:


> I've been missinformed then about cloning, I think it's absurd sending a seed pod off then getting a flask 1- 3 years later



Well, 3 years is longer than normal; but, cloning is no quicker than seed propagation. You send the correct portion of the plant to the lab and they disect the meristematic tissue out and grow it on as they constantly, but gently, agitate it to stop it from differentiating and forming a little plant with leaves and roots. Instead, it forms a undifferentiated lump of green cells. Then, they chop up the lump and grow all the bits on longer. Then, they chop up all the lumps and repeat....and repeat....and repeat, until the desired number of "lumps" has been produced. Then, they are placed on firm agar and not agitated; but, they are allowed to differentiate into small plantlets. The whole process can take longer then growing from seed.


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## My Green Pets (Dec 27, 2015)

But! They are identical! Very important.


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## gonewild (Dec 27, 2015)

CambriaWhat said:


> But! They are identical! Very important.



Important for mass production but worthless for the process of breeding new varieties. 
Hobbyists will buy a flask of a new hybrid cross and get 30 different seedlings with 30 different flowers. Not many hobbyists will buy a flask with 30 exact cloned duplicate plantlets.

The lab cloning process generally requires a minimum of 5000 plants to be produced to bring the cost down to the low price of seedlings. And that is for plants that are easy to clone.


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## monocotman (Dec 27, 2015)

*Cloning*

But sometimes clones are not all identical. The constant cell proliferation in the first part of cloning occasionally allows a few mutations to develop. This is termed 'somaclonal variation'. Sometimes this is visible in different colour flowers. Vulstekyara Cambrian 'plush' was cloned so many times it produced eventually 'lensings favourite' with less red in the flowers. 
David


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## gonewild (Dec 27, 2015)

monocotman said:


> But sometimes clones are not all identical. The constant cell proliferation in the first part of cloning occasionally allows a few mutations to develop. This is termed 'somaclonal variation'. Sometimes this is visible in different colour flowers. Vulstekyara Cambrian 'plush' was cloned so many times it produced eventually 'lensings favourite' with less red in the flowers.
> David



Yes but these mutations show up as a single plant produced out of 10s of thousands of clones produced. In the case of V. Cambrian 'Plush' there were probably 1 million plants cloned to see the 'lensings favorite' appear.

Cloning is good for large growers and box store buyers not serious hobbyists or small commercial growers.


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## Justin (Dec 27, 2015)

the wonderful thing about paphs is the diversity of seed-grown plants. no two are alike so there is the excitement of possibility in growing out something great.


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## SouthPark (Dec 15, 2019)

monocotman said:


> *Cloning*
> 
> But sometimes clones are not all identical.



Getting up to exactly 4 years late on this one! Know just what you mean MM! Although - it comes down to definitions. If the definition of clone relates to identical DNA ----- identical to the original, then that is quite clear. Otherwise, if the results of an attempted cloning process ends up with alterations - so not identical DNA - then some particular results won't be clones as such. They'd be mutations - not clones.


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