# Art in 9 minutes? You be the judge. Amazing



## IdahoOrchid (Jan 6, 2007)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1246174515665636969&pr=goog-sl


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## Persephone (Jan 6, 2007)

Incredible. I kept wondering how he came up with that technique.


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## phrag guy (Jan 7, 2007)

That was amazing.


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## Heather (Jan 7, 2007)

That's pretty cool. Especially how three dimensional it ends up being.


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## smartie2000 (Jan 7, 2007)

At first I thought he was crazy lighting it work with his torch! Is it to seal the painting?


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## gore42 (Jan 7, 2007)

It's like Bob Ross with spray paints instead of oils  It's better performance art than it is fine painting, but its pretty cool either way 

- Matt


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## Cannonball (Jan 7, 2007)

Art? No.

Kitsch? Yes.

There are a lot of talented artists who produce kitsch. It sells. It provides an income while they work behind the scenes on other art. There are a few who never move past the kitsch. See: Thomas Kinkade.

Here is another extremely talented street artist. http://users.skynet.be/J.Beever/pave.htm

Makes you wonder if this guy works on stuff when he isn't drawing on sidewalks.


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## kentuckiense (Jan 7, 2007)

Cannonball said:


> There are a few who never move past the kitsch. See: Thomas Kinkade.


You mean Thomas Kinkade, breast fondler and serial public urinator, is not a legitimate and respected artist?!

Nobody compares to Brandon Bird.


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## Heather (Jan 7, 2007)

LOL Zach! 
Wow, learn something new every day around here....:rollhappy:


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## IdahoOrchid (Jan 7, 2007)

As far as I am concerned, anything that is better than I can produce is ART. So that qualifies.


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## Mark (Jan 7, 2007)

That reminds me, the Starving Artists' sale is coming up at the Radisson. I hope they have some sofa-sized paintings. 

Disclaimer: I didn't watch the whole video since I'm eating.


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## NYEric (Jan 8, 2007)

Cannonball said:


> Art? No.
> 
> Kitsch? Yes.
> 
> ...


Jealouos elitist bullcrap. Deinately art.


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## NYEric (Jan 8, 2007)

That's definately Art. Although I'm sure he will die soon from all the high VOC paints etc.


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## Cannonball (Jan 8, 2007)

NYEric said:


> Jealouos elitist bullcrap. Deinately art.




Eric,

I am going to treat you with more respect than you have shown me.

1. Go here and look up the definition of kitsch. www.wikipedia.org.

2. Go here and study a REAL fantasy artist's work. www.mccallstudios.com

If you visit the links above and still think that the spraypainter's work is art, come back here and debate me about the topic at hand.


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## Mark (Jan 8, 2007)

I'm gonna have to vote "Hero" now :ninja:


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## Heather (Jan 8, 2007)

Mark said:


> I'm gonna have to vote "Hero" now :ninja:



LOL! 
Come on, Eric, let's hear it....:chick: :chick: :chick:


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## IdahoOrchid (Jan 8, 2007)

Based on what I read about the word kitsch it is a fake word. Art is what the viewer makes of it. There is much that is considered famous art that I consider to be trite and all of those other words used in that article.

Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so it art. If it can be viewed and appreciated for WHATEVER reason, then it is worthy.


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## Cannonball (Jan 8, 2007)

I can respect your opinion, even though I don't agree. 

Kitsch is not a "fake" word any more than realism, impressionism and cubism are "fake" words. They all describe a style, or genre, with certain characteristics that define each.

Should we hang Dogs Playing Poker and a velvet Elvis in an art museum? Not unless we are celebrating the very best of kitsch. And before you call me a snob, you should realize I collect art and own at least four or five pieces of kitsch.

The guy in the video is an artist. But he has chosen to paint in kitschy themes because it sells. Call it "kitsch art" if it makes you feel better, but it is just good old kitsch through and through.


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## kentuckiense (Jan 8, 2007)

Kitsch will always have a very special place in my heart. I was given a very lovely poster of this piece:
http://brandonbird.com/sega_ford.html


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## Equestris (Jan 8, 2007)

kentuckiense said:


> Kitsch will always have a very special place in my heart. I was given a very lovely poster of this piece:
> http://brandonbird.com/sega_ford.html



I LOVE it! LOL


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Jan 9, 2007)

I can't believe I've never seen that piece before!!

I am kinda creeped out by the kid playing Nintendo's resemblence to me as a kid though  

Jon


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## NYEric (Jan 9, 2007)

Cannonball said:


> Eric,
> 
> I am going to treat you with more respect than you have shown me.
> 
> If you visit the links above and still think that the spraypainter's work is art, come back here and debate me about the topic at hand.


I'm not saying anything to disrespect you. I took plenty of studio art at Vassar, enough to agree that Art is in the eye of the beholder. Are the little Russian [Matriochka] dolls not art? Certainly they're Kitsch. Is Hip Hop music not art? [I think you need to listen to Eric B. and Rakim if you don't think so.] You're certainly entitled to your opinion but like anyone, I think you can be more open, especially to the definition of 'Art'. :wink:


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## Cannonball (Jan 9, 2007)

I want to make one distinction before I begin my response. The title of this thread is "Art in 9 minutes? You be the judge". That is an open invitation to give an opinion. I hope you understand, I am not here to argue this to the bitter end. I don't have the time. But I do feel my opinion is an educated one, and worthy of consideration.



NYEric said:


> I'm not saying anything to disrespect you.



So calling someone a jealous elitist who spews bullcrap is respectful? That's playing a little fast and loose with the definition, no? 

People earn respect. I guess I haven't earned yours yet. I just fail to see what I did to lose it in the first place, except accurately describe a cheap copy of fantasy art as kitsch. Kitsch = a cheap copy of a well established style.



NYEric said:


> I took plenty of studio art at Vassar, enough to agree that Art is in the eye of the beholder.



That's great! Unfortunately you missed that literature class where they would have taught you that the proverb, as interpreted by Shakespeare and Benjamin Franklin, is actually "beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

I don't have any problem with calling the "Krylon Solar System" beautiful. I have a problem with calling it art. It is not. If you really want to be aggrivated with me, ask me what I think of realist painters. 



NYEric said:


> Are the little Russian [Matriochka] dolls not art? Certainly they're Kitsch.



Dolls are crafts, not art. Now I get to be yelled at by the Museum Curator who has a Native American Kochina. What a can of worms!



NYEric said:


> Is Hip Hop music not art? [I think you need to listen to Eric B. and Rakim if you don't think so.]



No. It's not art, it's music.



NYEric said:


> You're certainly entitled to your opinion but like anyone, I think you can be more open, especially to the definition of 'Art'. :wink:



This strikes me as a funny thing for you to tell me.


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## Heather (Jan 9, 2007)

Cannonball said:


> Dolls are crafts, not art. Now I get to be yelled at by the Museum Curator who has a Native American Kochina. What a can of worms!



and that's Kachina (or Katsina). ; ) Not a museum curator, but did handle the summary for the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act at my local Indian museum, as well as cataloging and selling quite a few historic ones in Santa Fe. 

Anyway, I disagree with you both - The Russian dolls are Folk Art. While it may be of the craft tradition, Folk Art additionallly reflects traditional social values, of various social groups.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_art

Definitely not kitsch. Just because it collects dust doesn't make it kitsch.


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## Persephone (Jan 9, 2007)

OK, I'm going to weigh in here as I have an MFA from Pratt Institute. The term "art" is subjective. I remember the inception of 'conceptual art' when the artist would hang a piece of string on the gallery wall and be prepared with a treatise on the significance of the string. The spray painted piece seems more like illustration than art. It's formularized, but then again some would consider it 'art'. Personally I hold it with the same esteem I do for paintings of dogs playing cards on velvet. Now *that* is kitch. Sorry if I offended anyone reading this who has one of those. My sister an I used to call my mother the Queen of Kitch and now that she's gone we value her collection as camp. (but we keep it in the closet )


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## Heather (Jan 9, 2007)

I completely agree that the term 'art' is subjective, but I also know CB has pretty stringint opinions about Fine Art. Personally, I prefer folk art and the decorative arts and crafts to fine art in general. 

I do think it is pretty neat what that guy can do in 9 minutes, but also, clearly, very commercial and kitschy, IMO.


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## Persephone (Jan 9, 2007)

Fine Art is spiritual.........
just as spiritual as
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orchid growing.


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## Cannonball (Jan 9, 2007)

This thread is just full of fun ideas.  

At what point does a Kachina (I learned to spell  ) doll become art? You wouldn't put a modern day Kachina on the same level of importance as one from the 1800's, especially if it was hand painted in Pakistan. If a Kachina is art, would a porcelain baby doll be considered art?

Is jewelry art? I don't think so. You could carve a thousand whales into ivory beads and string them into a necklace, but all you would have is a well CRAFTED necklace. Is scrimshaw art, and if so, wouldn't plastic beads strung on yarn be considered art?

Form vs. function. How would you classify a bread box that has been painted by a Master tole painter? Is it art when you paint strawberries on a tobacco can? Or is it craft?

If art is as interpretive as some of you would say it is, then you have to let people like me have my opinions, and let people paint with feces and call it art, and let people dance naked in public and call it performance art, and let people...you get the idea. 

This reminds me of my favorite Rudyard Kipling writing:

The Conundrum of the Workshops 

WHEN the flush of a newborn sun fell first on Eden's green and gold, 
Our father Adam sat under the Tree and scratched with a stick in the mold; 
And the first rude sketch that the world had seen was joy to his mighty heart, 
Till the Devil whispered behind the leaves: "It's pretty, but is it Art?" 

Read the rest here... http://www.bartleby.com/103/50.html


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## Cannonball (Jan 9, 2007)

I think one could easily bring about the end of the world by painting a kid playing a Nintendo game about dogs playing poker inside a spaceship piloted by Elvis on a black velvet covered Kachina doll.


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## Heather (Jan 9, 2007)

Cannonball said:


> At what point does a Kachina (I learned to spell  ) doll become art? You wouldn't put a modern day Kachina on the same level of importance as one from the 1800's, especially if it was hand painted in Pakistan. If a Kachina is art, would a porcelain baby doll be considered art?



As I indicated, to me, folk ART has to have social meaning to the cultures who are crafting it. So no, to Pakistan and no to porcelain baby dolls. 



Cannonball said:


> Is jewelry art? I don't think so. You could carve a thousand whales into ivory beads and string them into a necklace, but all you would have is a well CRAFTED necklace. Is scrimshaw art, and if so, wouldn't plastic beads strung on yarn be considered art?



Yes, I think real, *designed* jewelry is a form of art. A decorative art, such as that of a silver or goldsmith. I've not heard of plastic-smiths, to be frank.  



Cannonball said:


> Form vs. function. How would you classify a bread box that has been painted by a Master tole painter? Is it art when you paint strawberries on a tobacco can? Or is it craft?



Because I don't believe Tole has socio-cultural ties (though I admit I don't have time to look it up) ; ) I would say it is a craft. 
Let's look at this: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craft



Cannonball said:


> If art is as interpretive as some of you would say it is, then you have to let people like me have my opinions, and let people paint with feces and call it art, and let people dance naked in public and call it performance art, and let people...you get the idea.



Yes. Exactly. It's all subjective. There is no objectivity when it comes to any form of art.


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## gonewild (Jan 9, 2007)

Cannonball....
Please define art in terms a layperson can understand.


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## Heather (Jan 9, 2007)

Cannonball said:


> I think one could easily bring about the end of the world by painting a kid playing a Nintendo game about dogs playing poker inside a spaceship piloted by Elvis on a black velvet covered Kachina doll.



And if it was done by a Navajo man, it would be folk art.  
Case in point - Marcus Amerman and Diego Romero. Probably the two most well known young contemporary Native artists of this generation. 

http://www.sarpress.sarweb.org/iarc/dubin/amerman/beadwork01.htm
http://www.adobegallery.com/detail.php?item_id=1142094369


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## Persephone (Jan 9, 2007)

Cannonball, you are certainly welcome to your opinions. I don't know if there is any official authority that deems something 'art' or not. Then again are we talking about all art or only Fine Art? Is Dada art? Are the crayon drawings that used to adorn my refrigerator art?

Or....is art like pornography? We can't define it, but know it when we see it.
Maybe it has something to do with the intent? 

Gosh I didn't realize that visiting a slipper orchid forum could become heady!


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## Heather (Jan 9, 2007)

Persephone said:


> Gosh I didn't realize that visiting a slipper orchid forum could become heady!




:rollhappy:
Ohhh, dear! We are among the "headiest" of the orchid growers....hence the term "Paph-head"!


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Jan 9, 2007)

That's what makes this forum great! We have a diverse group with many specialties and backgrounds, and we have differing viewpoints that are not only tolerated, but encouraged.

I define art as a very general term encompassing nearly everything, and have dabbled in a few different styles and categories of it over the years.

Jon


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## Heather (Jan 9, 2007)

Jon, such the diplomat.  

You're right though - that's only one reason I am so proud of this place. I love how tolerant we are. There's been a big discussion over at OGD the last day or so about the AOS forum and one of the main complaints is how much lack of discussion (*cough* censorship) has contributed to the decline of their forum. I think we have a - dare I say it - *artful* forum. And we managed to maintain it without tragically slow (advertising-induced) load times to boot!


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## gonewild (Jan 9, 2007)

Heather said:


> Jon, such the diplomat.
> I think we have a - dare I say it - *artful* forum. And we managed to maintain it without tragically slow (advertising-induced) load times to boot!



I agree Slippertalk is artful and not at all kitschful.


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## Mark (Jan 9, 2007)

My dada's not art, he's Joe.


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## ScottMcC (Jan 9, 2007)

I went to a lecture back in college that was given by a military illustrator, the topic of which was the difference between illustration and art, and a brief history of military art and illustration.

his conclusion was that illustration was only meant to convey the specific idea or concept that was commissioned. ie here's a painting of the new fighter jet, look how pointy it is. or here's a portrait of the general, look at how general-y he looks. 

art, on the other hand, expands upon merely depicting an object, and does something more than that--it is not merely representational, but also creative. unfortunately, as such, it's hard to really pin down when something truly IS art. it's very easy to say something isn't art, but much harder to do the converse.

he also said that many works of "art" he considers illustrations, based at least in part on the artist/illustrator's motivation (ie who commissioned the painting and for what purpose) and also the techniques used. for instance, many historic paintings were produced using a camera obscura or other optical device, but "fine artists" scoff at such, and say that a "true artist" would only paint using the mind's eye and a finely skilled hand. or in the case of portraiture, most of it is illustration, because it exists solely because some rich guy commissioned it to depict him in his glory.

as for the speaker, he considers himself a pure illustrator, and while his hand is very technically skilled at applying paint to canvas, he does most of the prep work on his computer, uses whatever optical aids he feels like, copies most of his pictures from photos, and makes no pretenses about his work being creative, innovative, or even all that interesting. but I personally find beauty in it, and I know that I could never match his skill in illustration.

now I'm no art scholar, but I found the lecture very interesting. and as for the spray painting at hand, I think the kid is quite talented, regardless of what you call it.


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## Heather (Jan 9, 2007)

Oh, I also am interested in the "illustration as art" argument since I know some people involved in this discussion are very much into comics. 

:noangel:


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Jan 9, 2007)

Does hentai count??

Jon


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## kentuckiense (Jan 9, 2007)

Jon in SW Ohio said:


> Does hentai count??
> 
> Jon



No.

No.

_No._


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## adiaphane (Jan 9, 2007)

I think it does!


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## Persephone (Jan 9, 2007)

Heather said:


> Oh, I also am interested in the "illustration as art" argument since I know some people involved in this discussion are very much into comics.
> 
> :noangel:




Graphic Arts as opposed to Fine Arts?  

I think Fine Art is more concerned with pure aesthetic than the other Visual Arts.


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## NYEric (Jan 10, 2007)

Refer to Longman (Dictionary of Contemporary English) "Art: The use of painting, drawing, sculpture, etc. to represent things or express ideas." also, "The Arts [plural]: Art, Music, Theatre, Film, Literature, etc. all considered together. So, while you may think something is "Art" because it has a certain level of detail, or is made of a certain material, or took a certain amount of time to create, I find art to be something produced that has no scientific, constructive purpose. Is a dancer not an artist? I think the people I went to school w/ at SUNY Purchase would think so. Is a Mozart piece not art? And who knows what a porcelan doll says about a society/ The only reference we have to an ancient hunting society is their graffiti on a cave wall.


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