# Will the real Cyp. subtropicum please stand up!



## KyushuCalanthe (Aug 1, 2009)

Well, there may be a new Cyp in our midst. Check out this link for photos of the new described Cyp. singchii. Be sure to read the responding post by Michael Weinert - it has a pdf file describing the plant, habitat, and a good photo of the flower. 

Cypripedium appendiculatum/subtropicum/singchii

There will be some debate about this plant for a while I'd imagine since good specimens of the nearly mythical C. subtropicum are few and far between. To wit, it may be in fact that species growing at a new location.


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## Rick (Aug 1, 2009)

The color pic on the PDF shows a stunning and unusual flower.

They were very stingy with any site local data (SE Yunan seems like a big place). I'm sure they don't want whatever plants are there to get pillaged, but whatever happened to GPS?

I don't know much about subtropicum. Where is it supposed to come from in relation to this new find?


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## mccallen (Aug 1, 2009)

What a beautiful flower!
Is _subtropicum_ supposed to be more yellow?
I have Cribb's book packed away somewhere, but I'm having trouble quickly finding descriptions on the internet.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Aug 1, 2009)

Rick said:


> The color pic on the PDF shows a stunning and unusual flower.
> 
> They were very stingy with any site local data (SE Yunan seems like a big place). I'm sure they don't want whatever plants are there to get pillaged, but whatever happened to GPS?
> 
> I don't know much about subtropicum. Where is it supposed to come from in relation to this new find?



Rick, exact reporting of these finds have lead in recent years the absolute pillaging of sites. I know of an instance last year when a site containing a dozen or so plants of the alba form of C. tibeticum were taken after pics of them in habitat were posted on the web. The pictures were posted in the summer and by fall all the plants were gone. This form has not been seen before or since. So, I think any specific information should be kept secret.

The first location of C. subtropicum was in Tibet, in an alluvial forest of a tributary of the Tsangpo River. The new find is south of this area.



mccallen said:


> What a beautiful flower!
> Is _subtropicum_ supposed to be more yellow?
> I have Cribb's book packed away somewhere, but I'm having trouble quickly finding descriptions on the internet.



Well, exactly what color the original C. subtropicum was is indeed an interesting question. It was collected only once, never was photographed, and the type site was destroyed by a flood! Add to that, it was collected among hundreds of other plants and so nobody even remembers the plant very well. So, flower color is a matter of memory....


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## SlipperFan (Aug 1, 2009)

And color memory is very unreliable. Just try to find a color to match something in your home or clothing without taking a sample!

Thanks for the info, Tom. Very interesting.


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## Rick (Aug 1, 2009)

The Tsangpo River is a big one that flows into the Brahmaputra in N India. Has there been much exploration of India looking for subtropicum?

Tibet and Yunan province do share a border, and it looks like several river systems that flow west-east through Tibet end up funneling through Yunan too.

Still its allot of miles involved. Maybe just allot of disjoint populations of closely related very very rare plant species.

Hopefully they at least kept a small piece of this plant for DNA analysis


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## KyushuCalanthe (Aug 1, 2009)

Rick, accessing the area in which C. subtropicum was found is highly restricted because it lies along the disputed border between India and China. Indeed, it is very possible that these are disjunct populations of the same, or very similar species. Cyps in general have relic distributions and with many in western China this pattern can be severe. 

There is of course more to this story than is being revealed, though I haven't heard anything more through the grapevine as yet. I'll let you know if I find out any juicy tid-bits.


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## Rick (Aug 2, 2009)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> There is of course more to this story than is being revealed, though I haven't heard anything more through the grapevine as yet. I'll let you know if I find out any juicy tid-bits.



Pretty exciting huh!!

Going through the jungles and never leaving my computer screen.

That's the only way this 50+ year old is going to compete with Indiana Jones!

I did find it amusing given the security issues you mentioned that the river you mentioned seems to be a white water, kayaking mecca. Kind of like the Mt Everest of the white water rapids.


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## SlipperKing (Aug 2, 2009)

Nice find. Enjoyed the read.


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## yijiawang (Aug 3, 2009)

very similar to subtropicum except color.There are many high mountain between southeast of Yunnan and southeast of Tibet, several mountain over 4000meters. so these 2 areaes got very different flora. southeast of Yunnan is not a big area and without very high mountain, mountains between 500~2000meters.and special climate in there, not very warm and without frozen in winter,typical lime stone, many rain and foggy, so many special plants can grow there. another, this area is belong to war area between China and Vietnam in year 1980, many landmines in the earth until now---who dare walk on the ground? so many new species in there that person never see.
sorry for my pool English, hope bring some interesting things to you all!


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## KyushuCalanthe (Aug 3, 2009)

yijiawang said:


> very similar to subtropicum except color.There are many high mountain between southeast of Yunnan and southeast of Tibet, several mountain over 4000meters. so these 2 areaes got very different flora. southeast of Yunnan is not a big area and without very high mountain, mountains between 500~2000meters.and special climate in there, not very warm and without frozen in winter,typical lime stone, many rain and foggy, so many special plants can grow there. another, this area is belong to war area between China and Vietnam in year 1980, many landmines in the earth until now---who dare walk on the ground? so many new species in there that person never see.
> sorry for my pool English, hope bring some interesting things to you all!



Thanks for the extra information Yijiawang! Yes, it does sound very dangerous there indeed. Except for the limestone, the climate seems similar to where I live in southern Japan. The photograph in the pdf looks just like the mountains here - short and covered in subtropical broadleaf evergreen forest.

Question - have you ever seen C. subtropicum flowers in person?


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## NYEric (Aug 3, 2009)

Mines and difficult conditions, thanx and good luck!


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## Kavanaru (Aug 3, 2009)

NYEric said:


> Mines and difficult conditions, thanx and good luck!



Eric, when du we plan a trip to Southeast Yunnan? seems to be a paradise "Adventure Tourism" with orchids appeal...


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## yijiawang (Aug 7, 2009)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> Thanks for the extra information Yijiawang! Yes, it does sound very dangerous there indeed. Except for the limestone, the climate seems similar to where I live in southern Japan. The photograph in the pdf looks just like the mountains here - short and covered in subtropical broadleaf evergreen forest.
> 
> Question - have you ever seen C. subtropicum flowers in person?



never, I hope I can see it when I live~ but a friend of mine who find several plants from some henryi, but these plant become dry sample for science:sob:


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## Rick (Aug 7, 2009)

Your English is just fine.

Keep the reports coming in.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Aug 8, 2009)

yijiawang said:


> never, I hope I can see it when I live~ but a friend of mine who find several plants from some henryi, but these plant become dry sample for science:sob:



Thanks for the response. I have a feeling very few people have ever seen these in person. Hopefully some will be propagated from seed before they are completely stripped from the wild.


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## Hakone (Aug 16, 2009)

http://www.w-frosch.de/Cypris/Arten/subtr.htm


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## KyushuCalanthe (Aug 16, 2009)

Hakone, thanks for showing the update on Frosch's site. It is interesting to see he is supporting the the idea these are in fact just a new population of _C. subtropicum_, but also gives nearly zero information about the plant* I'm sure there will be a battle to come this year about the identity of these new plants - keep your eyes open for new publications this year from opposing camps. One thing's certain, this plant is radically different from any other _Cypripedium_, perhaps enough to warrant a new genus altogether.

*I just noticed that on the distribution map he put a big red blotch in the southern Yunnan/Myanmar region far away from the original dot in SE Tibet where the species was first found. Perhaps this signifies that plants have been found over a large area...or it is just a guess.


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## kentuckiense (Aug 16, 2009)

Also, check out the colors.

So far, we've got plants with dark brown, orange, and green sepals/petals.


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## kentuckiense (Aug 19, 2009)

My copy of Dr. Eccarius' monograph on the genus arrived today. I was interested to see if he was able to give suptropicum any additional treatment. I didn't detect anything notably new (ie. singchii) while deciphering the German text, but I did notice on the range map that he has the type location AND a location on the Vietnam border. I can't find an explanation in the text for that second site, though.


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## kentuckiense (Aug 19, 2009)

Ah, ok, found the answer in Dr. Perner's Cypripediums in China series. Apparently he saw an herbarium specimen of a plant in fruit from that area that could have been C. subtropicum.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Aug 20, 2009)

kentuckiense said:


> Ah, ok, found the answer in Dr. Perner's Cypripediums in China series. Apparently he saw an herbarium specimen of a plant in fruit from that area that could have been C. subtropicum.



Based on the new collections (from what I hear there were multiple sites found), it is likely this species is spread over much of southern Yunnan, apparently from Vietnam to Tibet, and I'd guess it possibly even exists in Myanmar and India.

BTW, I've heard that the pillaging is already happening this year to at least one site, but I have been given no specifics. Hopefully not all will perish.


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## montanum (Aug 29, 2009)

I am very excited to hear of the "New" plant, whether she truly be singchii or subtropicum! Perhaps Holger will be able to ship some seeds out eventually? Although I do worry that, given it's location and habitat, this plant will be akin to the other subtropical Cyps and Selenepedium in that it could be very hard to prop and grow! 

I'm glad to hear that Dr. Eccarius's book has made it out, though I'm still waiting for mine to come...


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## VAAlbert (Sep 14, 2009)

Hello:

If anyone can get their hands on a leaf + pressed flower (for the record) for each of these different plants, I'd be happy to check out their DNA. Would be very exciting.

Best wishes,

Victor Albert.


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## kentuckiense (Sep 15, 2009)

VAAlbert said:


> Hello:
> 
> If anyone can get their hands on a leaf + pressed flower (for the record) for each of these different plants, I'd be happy to check out their DNA. Would be very exciting.
> 
> ...



I'd be very interested to see if C. subtropicum/singchii actually clades with C. wardii as has been proposed.


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## fundulopanchax (Sep 16, 2009)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> BTW, I've heard that the pillaging is already happening this year to at least one site, but I have been given no specifics. Hopefully not all will perish.




Sadly, I have heard of plants offered at $1000 each (a reasonable price if legal ones were available - which they are certainly not, at least for shipment to the US - and have heard that a batch has reached Europe, but in unsalvagable condition.

Ron


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## KyushuCalanthe (Feb 10, 2010)

*C. subtropicum update*

A bit more information about the newly found colonies. 

First the bad news. Yes, plants are being collected and sold via eBAY, etc. The condition of the colonies is not well known at this point, but things aren't looking good for the plants that have been found.

Now some good news. Seed pods were taken at one site and have been successfully flasked, although it's anyone's guess how difficult this plant will be in culture. The plants are still at the protocorm stage.

A few fun facts about these guys. Clearly this is not your typical Cyp species:

*Habitat:* True subtropical rain forest subject to a strong seasonal monsoon. The plants were found growing in deep shade and the soil was a mucky consistency. No frost at these sites. Interestingly, C. henryi, a plant occurring in much colder areas was found along side C. subtropicum. Paphiopedilum villosum was found growing epiphytically nearby along with a number of other epiphytic plants. This habitat is in strong contrast to the type site which was a alluvial forest of alder trees.

*Growth Cycle*: Apparently this is the only known Cyp. that carries leaves over from one season to the next. The new growth will flower, set seed, and remain on the plant for at least one more growth cycle. The plant's habit is likely an ancestral type for the genus.

*Flower/Reproduction:* The flower is supposed to have an odd odor and it is likely it is not pollinated by bees or the like, but possibly flies. Fruit set is high, suggesting that the flowers are at least partially self-fertilizing. Despite the plant having an ancestral growth habit, the flowers are highly specialized and differentiated, so this species shouldn't be thought of as an "original" Cyp.

*Naming:* Still in dispute, but based on my source, the species C. subtropicum and C. singchii are synonymous. The confusion arose from the original collection back in the 80's. The flower's description was sketchy at best and the white spotting on the lip orifice was misinterpreted as mold growth on the herberium material. This lead to the erroneous description of the new taxa C. singchii. That saga will continue for a time I suspect. Interestingly it very likely this plant was first collected all the way back in the 1940's, but since it was not in flower it was mistaken to be a Epipactis species.


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## smartie2000 (Feb 11, 2010)

Very interesting.
It resembles Selenipedium in ways
The blooms are quite striking actually. I do wonder what it can do in hybrids!


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## NYEric (Feb 11, 2010)

eBay!? :ninja:


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## smartie2000 (Feb 26, 2010)

Another thread on a Chinese forum that has nice closeups of the pouch
http://www.orchidata.com/read.php?tid=15707


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## NYEric (Feb 27, 2010)

Fascinating. Thanx for sharing.


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## Berthold (Apr 16, 2010)

End of last year somebody sold Cypripedium subtropicum on the european market via Ebay for the adequate price of 250 US$.
What I heard and saw some of these plants are in flower now. They were Cypripedium henryi. Clients feel cheated.

The Email-Address of the seller starts with yijiawang.


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## Kavanaru (Apr 16, 2010)

Berthold said:


> End of last year somebody sold Cypripedium subtropicum on the european market via Ebay for the adequate price of 250 US$.
> What I heard and saw some of these plants are in flower now. They were Cypripedium henryi. Clients feel cheated.
> 
> The Email-Address of the seller starts with yijiawang.



well.... that was to be expected... I have also seen those ebay offered plants, and if we are talking about the same ones, they were to be sent from Asia (do not remember the country right now)... "cheap" plants "sent with papers...", but only if requested and there was also a note "normally we sent and the plants are not confiscated by customs" or something like that... in other words, dubious ebay sources... I could swear that if you check in Ebay for those vendors, they will not exist anymore...


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## Berthold (Apr 16, 2010)

Kavanaru said:


> in other words, dubious ebay sources... I could swear that if you check in Ebay for those vendors, they will not exist anymore...



I suppose its the person which posted here in this forum under the user name "yijiawang"


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## KyushuCalanthe (Apr 16, 2010)

Well, if the plants came without any leaves, then it would be anyone's guess what they might turn out to be. As noted C. henryi was found in the same area as the new plants, so there is a possibility of a mix-up, but that's hard to rationalize since C. subtropicum is evergreen...

You play, you pay I guess. Is an adult C. subtropicum worth $250? $2500? More? Given their scarcity I'd say they are like living treasures that shouldn't be peddled over Ebay in the first place, legally or otherwise. Based on the plants found so far, this species is at the very least highly threatened or more likely critically endangered. Since no known cultivated plants exist yet, that means they are becoming more endangered with each one ripped out of the wild. 

So, sympathy is not the easiest thing for me to feel at the moment except for the plants and the places they were taken from.


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## parvi_17 (Apr 16, 2010)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> Well, if the plants came without any leaves, then it would be anyone's guess what they might turn out to be. As noted C. henryi was found in the same area as the new plants, so there is a possibility of a mix-up, but that's hard to rationalize since C. subtropicum is evergreen...
> 
> You play, you pay I guess. Is an adult C. subtropicum worth $250? $2500? More? Given their scarcity I'd say they are like living treasures that shouldn't be peddled over Ebay in the first place, legally or otherwise. Based on the plants found so far, this species is at the very least highly threatened or more likely critically endangered. Since no known cultivated plants exist yet, that means they are becoming more endangered with each one ripped out of the wild.
> 
> So, sympathy is not the easiest thing for me to feel at the moment except for the plants and the places they were taken from.



I am so glad you said that Tom. I totally agree with you.


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## Berthold (Apr 16, 2010)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> Since no known cultivated plants exist yet, that means they are becoming more endangered with each one ripped out of the wild.
> 
> So, sympathy is not the easiest thing for me to feel at the moment except for the plants and the places they were taken from.



Tom I agree. Holger Perner is testing propagation. He showed a glas with little protocorms. I hope he will succeed.


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## Kavanaru (Apr 16, 2010)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> Well, if the plants came without any leaves, then it would be anyone's guess what they might turn out to be. As noted C. henryi was found in the same area as the new plants, so there is a possibility of a mix-up, but that's hard to rationalize since C. subtropicum is evergreen...
> 
> You play, you pay I guess. Is an adult C. subtropicum worth $250? $2500? More? Given their scarcity I'd say they are like living treasures that shouldn't be peddled over Ebay in the first place, legally or otherwise. Based on the plants found so far, this species is at the very least highly threatened or more likely critically endangered. Since no known cultivated plants exist yet, that means they are becoming more endangered with each one ripped out of the wild.
> 
> So, sympathy is not the easiest thing for me to feel at the moment except for the plants and the places they were taken from.



right to the point...


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## Berthold (Apr 16, 2010)

but in this case I regret shipping of the wrong species because I was standing by for seeds to sow.


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## Dido (Apr 17, 2010)

Would be nice if Mr. Perner would have succes so maybee one day we could get one for making Hybrids.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Apr 17, 2010)

Berthold said:


> but in this case I regret shipping of the wrong species because I was standing by for seeds to sow.



Yes, it would be nice if someone would be successful growing them from seed. What I find curious is the ambiguous legal status of such plants - clearly the plants were shipped illegally, so what would the legal status of their offspring be? I can guarantee you that 90% of Cyps in collections today have such roots, whether they be seed grown or established adult divisions.



Dido said:


> Would be nice if Mr. Perner would have succes so maybee one day we could get one for making Hybrids.



Yes, it should be interesting to see what comes of those plants. I can't say that I am most interested in seeing hybrids made though, it would be more interesting to see the species maintained long-term since wild populations may not endure in the coming decades. If Japan is any model for what will eventually come to pass in China, there will be few Cyps (or other desirable and rare plants) left in the wild with a few decades. A bummer, but inevitable I think. 

BTW, when I asked Dr. Perner how he planned to grow them out of flask he said he had no special plans, just to grow them in the normal substrate he uses for other species. Let's hope they prove to be more adaptable to cultivation than the Mexican species.


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## Berthold (Apr 17, 2010)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> Yes, it would be nice if someone would be Let's hope they prove to be more adaptable to cultivation than the Mexican species.



Tom if You sow them You have a selection effect of the genetic most robust individuals out of some thousand seedlings. 
Sowing is the best way to get cultivatable plants and the only way in case of sensitive species.


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## Berthold (Apr 23, 2010)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> Yes, it would be nice if someone would be successful growing them from seed. What I find curious is the ambiguous legal status of such plants - clearly the plants were shipped illegally, so what would the legal status of their offspring be? I can guarantee you that 90% of Cyps in collections today have such roots, whether they be seed grown or established adult divisions.



CITES only define international trading restrictions of plants and part of plants, not of seeds. Seeds are not part of plants because they are seperated from plants but seed capsules are. So You can ship seeds of protected plants internationally also if collecting is illegal in the origin country. So there is no european law against sowing cypripedium seeds in Europe of protected plants from China.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Apr 23, 2010)

Berthold said:


> CITES only define international trading restrictions of plants and part of plants, not of seeds. Seeds are not part of plants because they are seperated from plants but seed capsules are. So You can ship seeds of protected plants internationally also if collecting is illegal in the origin country. So there is no european law against sowing cypripedium seeds in Europe of protected plants from China.



OK, but we don't all live in Europe!


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## Berthold (Apr 24, 2010)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> OK, but we don't all live in Europe!



right Tom, but same in Japan and USA. But we don't all live in Japan, USA or Europe. Most people live in China and there it is illegal to sow illegally collected seeds in China.


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## Dido (Apr 25, 2010)

Did not know that in this detail before.


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## Berthold (Apr 4, 2014)

*Will the real Cyp. subtropicum please stand up! *

I think it is on the right way. After 2 years sleeping underground its back again


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## KyushuCalanthe (Apr 4, 2014)

Let's hope this one makes it. So far, so good!


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## Berthold (Apr 5, 2014)

Most imported plants get infected in Europe and decrease to zero within 2 or 3 years, even when they flower in the first year.
I am optimistic because this plant already passed this phase alive.


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## Rick (Apr 5, 2014)

Awesome Berthold!!

Good luck:wink:


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## Berthold (May 3, 2014)

It's growing slowly but steadily

from 17.01.






same plant 3.5 month later


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## KyushuCalanthe (May 3, 2014)

Go baby go! I'm fascinated to see how your plant does. I've not heard of any confirmed success stories - just stories. If you can get it to flower it would be great to propagate this rare plant. Again, I've known a couple people who successfully germinated them, but none are doing very well out of flask.


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