# Neofinetia ranking question(s)



## Papaholic (Mar 28, 2010)

Greetings neofinetia collectors.
I was curious to know, now that I actually saw a neo ranking chart ( I bought a copy of Jason Fischer's article in Orchid Digest where I saw it- Highly recommended article), what are the 9 highest ranked Noes?
I assume that with the big dogs it probably does not change too much from year to year.
I know they are expensive and I probably will not be able to afford one but I am really curious to know which varieties they are and if they share any common characteristics such as all being bean leaf types, or all being variegated, etc..
If anyone knows about the current or past top Neos I would love to learn more about each of them.
Thanks,
Papaholic


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## Lanmark (Mar 28, 2010)

I haven't seen a current chart for 2 or 3 years now so I can't tell you which ones are currently the nine highest ranked varieties. I believe Fukiden pretty much always ranks at #1 or close to it. New World Orchids is currently offering a three growth plant of Fukiden (leaves have yellow marginal variegation with green centers) for $1590 USD. A single growth Fukiden plant online, if you can obtain it, might cost you around $1000 USD. Other heavy hitters on the chart include Suisen, Mangetsu, Kinbotan, Beniougi, Maizuru, Benkeimaru, Keiga and Homeiden. Prices vary widely.

Common characteristics would be uniqueness and rarity. Some are variegated, some are bean leaf and so forth. All aspects of Neofinetia falcata plants are noted and appreciated such as the color of the root tips, the texture, color, width, shape, curve, pattern and habit of variegation of the leaves, and the shape of the tsuke including the straight line, the curve/month/moon, the mountain, and the ocean wave. Differences in the color and shape of the flowers are appreciated too.

A single growth Suisen plant (a special bean leaf) with a leafspan of about 1.75 to 2 inches max with 7 leaves will currently set you back $1000 USD. Homeiden has come down somewhat in price, and you can really get a bargain if you buy a small seedling from a selfing of Homeiden. It will only cost you $150 USD, and if you're lucky it might turn out to be as good as a division of the real thing.

I gave away a small (2 - 3 growth) Mangetsu plant in 2008 to a friend of mine since the plant didn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Sometimes a plant just leaves me feeling cold or it doesn't perform well for me so I give it away.  There are many varieties I have tried and disliked...but many more that I have tried and fallen in love with. 

Currently some of the better varieties in my collection include Homeiden, Kinkounishiki, Manjyusahge, Seikai, Unkai, Ouzanomai, Hanakanzashi, Sobiryu, Kinginrasha, Kinkosei, Tensho, Hisui, and Tosamidori. Certainly not all of these are top ranking plants, but many of them do appear on the Meikan chart. I have many other varieties as well. None of them seem to satisfy my craving for more. :drool: My wish list is long and it includes a nice Manazuru, Beniougi, Hanamatoi, Kokuryu, Gokousei, Suisen, and Shigyoku. :evil:


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## Linh (Mar 30, 2010)

I recently received the 2009 and 2010 charts but I can't translate any of the names into Japanese, sorry. I don't know if they all share a common characteristic but I think many of them are variegated and have ruby roots.


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## ncart (Mar 30, 2010)

Linh said:


> I recently received the 2009 and 2010 charts *but I can't translate any of the names into Japanese*, sorry. I don't know if they all share a common characteristic but I think many of them are variegated and have ruby roots.



oke:


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## Lanmark (Mar 31, 2010)

Linh said:


> I recently received the 2009 and 2010 charts *but I can't translate any of the names into Japanese*, sorry. I don't know if they all share a common characteristic but I think many of them are variegated and have ruby roots.





ncart said:


> oke:


:rollhappy: :clap: :rollhappy:

:evil:


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## Linh (Mar 31, 2010)

ncart said:


> oke:


oke: Okie dokie, go at it.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/constant_gardener/4479410492/sizes/l/

I think....
Gold box on the left hand top corner is Ooemarushima.
Gold box in the middle of top row is Fuukiden.
Gold box on top row right hand side is Kinbotan.
5th white box counting from left on top row is Botan-nishiki.
6th white box counting from left on top row is Higuma.
3rd white box counting from right on top row is Kinkirin.

Ones in gold boxes are very expensive. Ones in white boxes on top row, only people like Oprah can afford.

I thought Jason said the current year's Meikan is not available until May of that year. However, Satomi said the chart in the flickr link above is the 2010 chart. So anyways, as far as I know, the chart above is the most current Meikan.


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## Lanmark (Mar 31, 2010)

Linh said:


> Ones in gold boxes are very expensive. Ones in white boxes on top row, only people like Oprah can afford.



:rollhappy: Wellllll....maybe one does not require the _full_ wealth of Oprah to afford them  but yes, they tend to be quite expensive in that top row of white boxes.

_I think_... the top row far right white box is Koto-nishiki, next to it in the top row in the second white box counting from the right side toward the center is Haku-botan, the fourth white box counting from the right toward the center on top row might be Suiho, the fourth white box in the top row counting from the left side toward the center is Kinkaku..._I think these are correct...but I could be wrong. I'm still working on it._ 

Thanks for sharing that chart with us Tracy! :drool:


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## ncart (Mar 31, 2010)

Linh said:


> oke: Okie dokie, go at it.
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/constant_gardener/4479410492/sizes/l/
> 
> ...



Tracy, you did good. So did you, Lanmark

Top Left white box from left. 

Kongodakara, Hanamatoi, Nishiki-ori, Kinkaku, Higuma. 

Top Right white box from right. 

Koto-nishiki, Hakubotan, Kinkirin, Suihou, Kohakuden, Hanakanzuki. 

Let me know if you want to know MORE.


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## Papaholic (Mar 31, 2010)

Thank you all so much for this information.
The more I am learning from these discussions the more I am suprised at the quantity of varieties that exist for the Neofinetia. Add to that the differences each plant has ( some subtle- others extreme) and all within the same species! [ I may go broke folks!!!] 
I do have an off topic (E-Z question) for anyone who cares to answer.
My first neo bloomed today ( 3 of 4) buds are open on my Benisuzume. I can't begin to describe the fragrance other than it's wonderful! But....How long do the flowers last on these plants? Or does it vary from neo to neo?
Now I cannot wait till the others bloom.
If I can purchase my camera soon I will post some pics and see what you all think. I was hoping for a better flower count but I think that will come with a larger mature plant.
How many flowers does a Benisuzume typically make per growth anyway?
Thanks again for the chart replies and sorry for digressing here but I'm just so excited about these little plants that it is hard to contain my enthusiasm at times.
Papaholic


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## Lanmark (Apr 1, 2010)

ncart said:


> Tracy, you did good. So did you, Lanmark
> Let me know if you want to know MORE.



Thanks! 

I want as many translations as you care to provide, but I don't want to be greedy about it either. :clap: 

Hanamatoi is high on my wish list. Shigyoku is another. :drool:


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## KyushuCalanthe (Apr 1, 2010)

Hey Papaholic,

The number of flowers you'll get per growth will vary depending on the size of the overall plant. The more growths, the more flowers generally speaking. For that reason, don't break clumps up unless they get truly unmanageable size. 'Benisuzume' is easy to flower and grow, so likely you can have a nice size plant with a few years. Under really good conditions the flowers might last a couple weeks.

Regarding the ranking system and how many fuukiran have been officially accepted - don't concern yourself with it too much. Think about what you like most - colored flowers? aberrant flowers? variegation? colored root tips? leaf shape? and so on.

You also need to consider price, especially if you're buying outside of Japan where prices can be back breaking. Here are some good ones to start with IMO, both for form and relative affordability:

Colored flowers - Shutennou, the cheapest Kibana you can find (they're all hybrids anyways, so don't spend too much), Hisui, Benisuzume

Variegated leaves - Tenkeifukurin (Gogyofukurin is fine too), Orihime, Nishidemiyako, Akebono, Asahiden

Tiger leaves - Kinroukaku, Kishusekko

Bean leaves - Tamakongou, Kinkujyaku

Rasp leaves - Kujyakumaru

Odd flowers - Shunkyuuden, Hoshiguruma, Kinboshi (nice tiger leaves too), and if you can find them, Tenshin and Soubiryu 

Odd flowers and leaves - Seikai, Unkai, Kinginrasha (leaves and flowers are rasp type), Kutsuwamushi, Suikaden, Kuroshinjyu

And one more, Onamiseikai

These are a good place to start. The top of this list would be Seikai, Kuroshinjyu, Shunkyuuden, Tamakongou, Tenkeifukurin, Nishidemiyako, Shutennou and Hisui. There are other great ones, but they are harder and more expensive to get. 

Beware some of the mericloned plants (sometimes called "seedlings" by vendors) since they can't all be guaranteed to be true to form. The best example of this are the Manjyushage coming on the market now. Most are untested mericlones that could end up with very ordinary flowers. Buyer beware!


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## KyushuCalanthe (Apr 1, 2010)

Lanmark said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Hanamatoi is high on my wish list.



Are you planning to sell your car? Can't touch one of these in Japan for less than $2000-$3000 for a 2-3 growth plant!


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## Linh (Apr 1, 2010)

Papaholic said:


> [ I may go broke folks!!!]Papaholic


I *AM* broke from my new neo purchases this season. I can't go back to OL to buy any new Paphs for a while:sob:


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## Lanmark (Apr 1, 2010)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> Are you planning to sell your car? Can't touch one of these in Japan for less than $2000-$3000 for a 2-3 growth plant!



:rollhappy: I would hope my car would sell for more than that! 

I have purchased some _very_ expensive Neo plants in the past. While spending a few thousand on a single plant isn't the norm for the majority of the plants in my collection, it's certainly not out of the question.


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## Papaholic (Apr 1, 2010)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> Hey Papaholic,
> 
> The number of flowers you'll get per growth will vary depending on the size of the overall plant. The more growths, the more flowers generally speaking. For that reason, don't break clumps up unless they get truly unmanageable size. 'Benisuzume' is easy to flower and grow, so likely you can have a nice size plant with a few years. Under really good conditions the flowers might last a couple weeks.
> 
> ...


KyushuCalanthe,
You have certainly given some excellent recommendations.
I thought you may want to comment or give your opinion on two plants I am seriously interested in. The first ( much more affordable) is Jyukai which I understand is exactly like Seikai but with all white flowers ( Unkai was also a consideration), and the other was Maizuru. After I saw the picture on the cover of Orchid Digest ( Neo Issue) I was WOW'ed by it.
Do you or any one else have any thoughts on these [ Jyukai, Unkai, and Maizuru]?
Obviously Maizuru would be the rarest but any comments on the flower colors, ease of blooming, growth rate, desireability of the plant, etc concerning those three would be greatly appreciated
Papaholic


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## Lanmark (Apr 1, 2010)

Papaholic said:


> ...but any comments on the flower colors, ease of blooming, growth rate, desireability of the plant, etc concerning those three would be greatly appreciated
> Papaholic



I'm not KyushuCalanthe but my experience with Unkai has been very good. I believe it would be the fastest growing of the three and also the one which will most readily bloom.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Apr 2, 2010)

Papaholic, sorry for the late response. I only grow Unkai and I too have found it to be easy to grow and a good flowerer (is that a word?). Sekai by comparison is much more stingy, but an awesome plant. I know nothing of Jyukai, not even seen one in person, so I cannot comment. Maizuru is very nice, but a slow grower and no doubt not cheap either. That one that Jason took a pic of was exceptionally well grown - not an easy task and SLOW going.


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## Linh (Apr 4, 2010)

Has anyone here seen any variegated, screw leaf varieties or owns one? Apparently, they exist. Somewhere. I've never pictures of any yellow + green ones. I've only seen the one in the Neo dictionary with similiar shape to Naniwajishi and has variegation like Akebono.


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## Lanmark (Apr 4, 2010)

Linh said:


> Has anyone here seen any variegated, screw leaf varieties or owns one? Apparently, they exist. Somewhere. I've never pictures of any yellow + green ones. I've only seen the one in the Neo dictionary with similiar shape to Naniwajishi and has variegation like Akebono.



I haven't seen anything like that, Tracy. I did find a link online to a photo of Tatsuhoko-no-shima 龍鉾の縞 but I can't see much variegation. Perhaps it will develop more variegation over time. http://fuukiran.seesaa.net/pages/user/search/?keyword=%97%B4%96g%82%CC%8E%C8

#7 on this page appears to be tiger variegation and corkscrew: http://www8.ocn.ne.jp/~ftgogo/fuuranrusuto.html

I'll follow up if I find any more.


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## huiray (Apr 10, 2010)

Linh said:


> I thought Jason said the current year's Meikan is not available until May of that year. However, Satomi said the chart in the flickr link above is the 2010 chart. So anyways, as far as I know, the chart above is the most current Meikan.



Yes, the Meikan you show in your pic is the current year's Meikan. The way to tell for any of them (and for other 'official' Japanese documents) is to look for the year-of-reign designation on it. The pic you took cut out the borders/margins, but if you look again at your actual Meikan you will see in the top right margin, starting from the top, 平成 = Heisei (the era name of the current emperor Akihito) followed by the kanji for twenty-two. This is year Heisei 22 = 2010. (a useful explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heisei_period) [Yes, I am looking at my copy of the Meikan]

BTW the left margin of a Meikan gives valuable info - the varieties that were accepted for registration that year (three for 2010) and which will therefore appear at the right end of the second row in the following year's Meikan, enclosed in purple-lined boxes within the row. (So the three you see in the purple-lined boxes in this year's (2010) Meikan were in the left margin of last year's (2009) Meikan. Since you say you have last year's Meikan, do take a look and compare the two.


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## Linh (Apr 11, 2010)

huiray said:


> Yes, the Meikan you show in your pic is the current year's Meikan. The way to tell for any of them (and for other 'official' Japanese documents) is to look for the year-of-reign designation on it. The pic you took cut out the borders/margins, but if you look again at your actual Meikan you will see in the top right margin, starting from the top, 平成 = Heisei (the era name of the current emperor Akihito) followed by the kanji for twenty-two. This is year Heisei 22 = 2010. (a useful explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heisei_period) [Yes, I am looking at my copy of the Meikan]
> 
> BTW the left margin of a Meikan gives valuable info - the varieties that were accepted for registration that year (three for 2010) and which will therefore appear at the right end of the second row in the following year's Meikan, enclosed in purple-lined boxes within the row. (So the three you see in the purple-lined boxes in this year's (2010) Meikan were in the left margin of last year's (2009) Meikan. Since you say you have last year's Meikan, do take a look and compare the two.


Yes, I do see it now. Interesting, thanks for explanation, Ray.


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## Linh (Apr 12, 2010)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> Are you planning to sell your car? Can't touch one of these in Japan for less than $2000-$3000 for a 2-3 growth plant!


Tom, Lanmark or Ray, or anybody who might know....

Do you guys know any neo vendors located in central Japan? I know Seed Engei has plants but does anybody have names of other sellers?


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## huiray (Apr 12, 2010)

Linh said:


> Tom, Lanmark or Ray, or anybody who might know....
> 
> Do you guys know any neo vendors located in central Japan? I know Seed Engei has plants but does anybody have names of other sellers?



http://www.fuukiran.net/
and here's the google-translated version:
http://translate.googleusercontent....le.com&usg=ALkJrhhJesF7M6shayR14ZsigCof4sFC5w
Most of them are in the Tokyo-Osaka region/corridor (incld Shizuoka prefecture, between Tokyo and Osaka, where Seedengei and Sakurai are).


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## huiray (Jun 9, 2010)

huiray said:


> (snip)
> 
> BTW the left margin of a Meikan gives valuable info - the varieties that were accepted for registration that year (three for 2010) and which will therefore appear at the right end of the second row in the following year's Meikan, enclosed in purple-lined boxes within the row. (So the three you see in the purple-lined boxes in this year's (2010) Meikan were in the left margin of last year's (2009) Meikan. Since you say you have last year's Meikan, do take a look and compare the two.



Here are pics of the three varieties accepted last year, shown in purple-lined boxes on the right of the second row of the 2010 Meikan:
On far right: getsurin (月輪) http://www.nihonfuukirankai.com/image/shintouroku2/21nendo/getsurin.jpg
second from right: kirinju (麒麟樹) http://www.nihonfuukirankai.com/image/shintouroku2/21nendo/kirinju.jpg
third from right: shunrai (春雷) http://www.nihonfuukirankai.com/image/shintouroku2/21nendo/shunrai.jpg

...and here are pics of the three varieties registered in 2008, appearing in purple-lined boxes in the 2009 Meikan; since then one (金剛宝) was moved into the top row, the other two moved into the current second row:
On right of 2nd row (2009 Meikan), now at left of 1st row (2010 Meikan): kongouhou (金剛宝) http://www.nihonfuukirankai.com/image/shintouroku2/20nendo/kongouhou.jpg
Second from right of 2nd row (2009 Meikan), now 6th from right of 2nd row (2010 Meikan): tensen (天仙) http://www.nihonfuukirankai.com/image/shintouroku2/20nendo/tensen.jpg
Third from right of 2nd row (2009 Meikan), now 7th from right of 2nd row (2010 Meikan): surugabotan (駿河牡丹) http://www.nihonfuukirankai.com/image/shintouroku2/20nendo/surugabotan.jpg


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## Linh (Jun 9, 2010)

huiray said:


> Here are pics of the three varieties accepted last year, shown in purple-lined boxes on the right of the second row of the 2010 Meikan:
> On far right: getsurin (月輪) http://www.nihonfuukirankai.com/imag...o/getsurin.jpg
> second from right: kirinju (麒麟樹) http://www.nihonfuukirankai.com/imag...do/kirinju.jpg
> third from right: shunrai (春雷) http://www.nihonfuukirankai.com/imag...do/shunrai.jpg


I can't see the photos, Ray. It says "404 error not found".


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## huiray (Jun 9, 2010)

Linh, fixed the links (removed the ... the application here put into the urls, and put in the full paths). Try them now.


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## Linh (Jun 9, 2010)

huiray said:


> Linh, fixed the links (removed the ... the application here put into the urls, and put in the full paths). Try them now.


Oooh, nice! I like Kirinju.:smitten: Thanks, Ray.


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## Lanmark (Jun 9, 2010)

huiray said:


> Here are pics of the three varieties accepted last year, shown in purple-lined boxes on the right of the second row of the 2010 Meikan:
> On far right: getsurin (月輪) http://www.nihonfuukirankai.com/image/shintouroku2/21nendo/getsurin.jpg
> second from right: kirinju (麒麟樹) http://www.nihonfuukirankai.com/image/shintouroku2/21nendo/kirinju.jpg
> third from right: shunrai (春雷) http://www.nihonfuukirankai.com/image/shintouroku2/21nendo/shunrai.jpg
> ...



I'm currently in a position to accept one or more of each of these varieties as gifts from anyone wanting to give. Just contact me when you're ready.  :rollhappy:


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## NYEric (Jun 9, 2010)

No problem! Where's your first-born?! :evil:


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## John Boy (Jun 9, 2010)

I would be generous enough to volunteer too!!!

I’m still blown to bits with the wealth of knowledge I keep finding relating to Neo’s within this forum. Thank you all!!!...for that. 
As you by now know I’m in Europe, which (as far as I’m aware) is Neo-Dessert-/Hell-/Mars is probably nearer, than anything Neo-related. Apart from one very committed Ebay seller within the U.K., Europe is sort of in the dark ages, when it comes to Neofinetia altogether. 

I have been involved with orchids for most of my life, which sums up to nearly 37 years of orchid-mania. But this Neofinetia business these days, adds an altogether other dimension to it. As some of you might know, I also run a small lab (when I can), so every orchid I come across I view from a breeding perspective. Again: Neofinetia is a complete mystery to me. I view an Orchid from my Western European perspective, and just to sound very very stupid on this occasion, I can’t help but ask: are all these so-called Neofinetia falcata all Neofinetia falcata? Botanically speaking I have HUGE difficulties accepting that all this variation comes under one species. I know that to someone within the depths of the matter that might sound troublesome questioning. I don’t want to trouble anyone. I just want to learn whatever there is to learn. Are all these bean-leaf, and red roots, all these tiger-leafs and purple spur plants one and the same thing? What will I get, if I bred the tiniest of bean-leaf plants to the tallest of tiger-leaf plants I can find? Are these individual groups stable when it comes to breeding? I’m so ignorant when it comes to Neos, and I’d so much love to understand what I see, and come across… I can (and have been) design(ing) entire breeding programs for Cattleya’s, Paphio’s and Phal’s, and I’m quite at home with anything new that comes from Brazil at this moment in time… Neofinetia is a mystery to me. And I don’t like that. 

???


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## Lanmark (Jun 9, 2010)

John Boy said:


> I can’t help but ask: are all these so-called Neofinetia falcata all Neofinetia falcata? Botanically speaking I have HUGE difficulties accepting that all this variation comes under one species.



Yes, for the most part, all this variation comes under one species. The yellows are proving to be an exception. Apparently there is some Ascocentrum in the yellows. Some of the dark solid pink varieties like Beniotome, Fujimusume and Kouyou are hybrids as well. The rest are simply the results of collection from nature, mutation and careful selection and breeding over a period of several hundred years.

Glenn from NWO travels to UK every June and takes with him pre-ordered plants which he can ship to European destinations. The minimum order is something like $100usd I believe.


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## John Boy (Jun 9, 2010)

Yeah, I know Glenn quite well, and I have to admit…I mostly did abuse him to bring back yellow Sophronitis for me from Japan to the UK. But I will have to start buying Neos from him too. I believe the Ebay seller I mentioned sells his plants as well.
Would you say that Neos are a Taxonomist nightmare, or are they all too much of a chicken, to touch the subject? Not that it matters to me, but the width of variation is somewhat unusual to be left alone. Find a Cattleya aclandiae which has 2 more dots than any other aclandiae, and “they” will make it a new species over night!!! I doubt that anyone in Japan would accept “any interference” anyhow, and I regard that as a good thing, but to understand this falcata issue with having in mind that the majority of us haven’t got a Japanese Mind-Set…. makes it even more difficult to come to grips with the enormity of falacata’s complexity, not to mention the naming of all theses cultivars, which I will be a lost case at, for the next few 000years.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Jun 9, 2010)

John Boy said:


> Would you say that Neos are a Taxonomist nightmare, or are they all too much of a chicken, to touch the subject? Not that it matters to me, but the width of variation is somewhat unusual to be left alone. Find a Cattleya aclandiae which has 2 more dots than any other aclandiae, and “they” will make it a new species over night!!! I doubt that anyone in Japan would accept “any interference” anyhow, and I regard that as a good thing, but to understand this falcata issue with having in mind that the majority of us haven’t got a Japanese Mind-Set…. makes it even more difficult to come to grips with the enormity of falacata’s complexity, not to mention the naming of all theses cultivars, which I will be a lost case at, for the next few 000years.



Well, if it makes you feel any better, they do that with just about any collectible plant here. They delight in choosing a plant and trying to make as many variations of it as possible (not all are lovely either). It indeed is part of the "Japanese mindset". I can't say that I have that mindset, but I have partaken in in collecting some of these variations. No doubt that some of the variation isn't exactly on the up and up all the time - but mums the word.


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## Lanmark (Jun 9, 2010)

I would definitely say Neos are a taxonomist's nightmare, or maybe better yet, a plant geneticist's nightmare. :rollhappy: A good example of the instability and variability of the species, however, can be found in the variety _'Nishidemiyako'_. Grow this variety well and grow it long enough and chances are one or more of your plants will eventually sport a keiki with a mutation which is a highly valued variety known as _'Manazuru'_ -- something a lot of Neo growers dream of having happen with their _'Nishidemiyako'_ plants! :drool: Another highly variable plant is _'Kinbotan'_ which is one of its qualities which makes it quite valuable. I suspect and have heard it said that environmental conditions as well as certain external influences such as [symbiotic?] fungi and perhaps even non-disease-causing viruses may play a role in some of these mutations. I think there are a lot of things we don't yet fully understand about genetic drift.


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## huiray (Jun 10, 2010)

Genetic variability is not that uncommon...in the animal world consider: a) a blond, blue-eyed Swede; b) a curly-haired dark-skinned Nigerian; c) a slant-eyed brown-haired yellow-skinned Chinese/Japanese; d) a pitch-black skinned Nubian...
I believe they are all considered members of the same species, yes?

Perhaps it is taxonomists in the Western Tradition peering at the plant kingdom who tend more to be splitters?

With Neos the source of this variability between varieties is not completely understood, as Lanmark has suggested...

In the context of the current discussion there is perhaps another benefit of paying a little attention to the Fuukiran Meikan - all the varieties on the chart are considered varieties of a single species, Neofinetia falcata, at least by the authorities of the Japanese Fuukiran Society. Hybrids would never make it onto the chart under historical and current practice as I understand it. Apart from the yellow-flowered "Neos", there are indeed many hybrids that have been and are being made between Neos and something else, as Lanmark and Kyushu Calanthe have mentioned, even though they may be considered as "Fuukiran" in the _horticultural_ sense. I think it is generally true that reputable growers/suppliers of fuukiran plants would immediately tell you if something is a hybrid, if they knew it to be so. That has certainly been true with a grower/supplier that I deal with occasionally in Japan. Within Japan and the fuukiran-growing community there, I would expect that it would be commonly known which ones are hybrids and which ones are considered species. (Kyushu Calanthe, would this be true in your view?)

Here's an old thread by Jason Fischer regarding yellow-flowered Neos: http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1307


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## SlipperFan (Jun 10, 2010)

huiray said:


> Genetic variability is not that uncommon...in the animal world consider: a) a blond, blue-eyed Swede; b) a curly-haired dark-skinned Nigerian; c) a slant-eyed brown-haired yellow-skinned Chinese/Japanese; d) a pitch-black skinned Nubian...
> I believe they are all considered members of the same species, yes?
> 
> Perhaps it is taxonomists in the Western Tradition peering at the plant kingdom who tend more to be splitters?



Good point!


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## KyushuCalanthe (Jun 10, 2010)

huiray said:


> Within Japan and the fuukiran-growing community there, I would expect that it would be commonly known which ones are hybrids and which ones are considered species. (Kyushu Calanthe, would this be true in your view?)



I refer to Jason's thorough approach in the above mentioned thread. Lots of money tied up in fuukiran, so you'll have to excuse me, but I trust almost no one concerning the "reality" of any given plant. Some are obvious hybrids and are claimed to be such, while others are much harder to discern and will remain in that no man's land - except in the minds of those who "found" them or more likely created them.

BTW, I am really just an outsider living in Japan and so have little inside knowledge (well, I have some confidants), so take everything I say with a pound of salt.


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## Lanmark (Jun 10, 2010)

Hehehe you are smart and skeptical, Tom.  I am a firm believer in the purity of certain varieties such as 'Seikai' , 'Mangetsu' , 'Suminagashi' , 'Mikado' etc.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Jun 11, 2010)

Lanmark said:


> Hehehe you are smart and skeptical, Tom.  I am a firm believer in the purity of certain varieties such as 'Seikai' , 'Mangetsu' , 'Suminagashi' , 'Mikado' etc.



Hey! Don't get me wrong, I do believe many are the real thing, but some I wonder about - a clear example would be 'Hisui' - not so much because of the flowers, but the plant isn't quite right. One grower I know swears that none of the purple/pink flowers are pure Neofinetia - not that I agree with him about all varieties, but some do look suspect to me.


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## Lanmark (Jun 11, 2010)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> Hey! Don't get me wrong, I do believe many are the real thing, but some I wonder about - a clear example would be 'Hisui' - not so much because of the flowers, but the plant isn't quite right. One grower I know swears that none of the purple/pink flowers are pure Neofinetia - not that I agree with him about all varieties, but some do look suspect to me.



Oh, I'm not getting you wrong.  Our ideas are actually quite similar.  I've also wondered about _'Hisui'_. The plant looks all wrong to me. _'Tosamidori'_, on the other hand, looks legit to my eye, but I haven't completely made up my mind just yet. Mine's in bud now; I'll be posting photos when it blooms. Some of the pinks are definitely not pure, such as _'Beniotome'_ and _'Kouyou'_ so it stands to reason that some of the other pinks have been influenced by outside genepools as well. Some of the pinks, however, I really do believe are untainted. Taking the time to observe the entire plant from root tips to leaf tips and everything inbetween (including the central stem, overall plant form, leaf: attitude, retention and attrition, root: girth, surface texture and behavior, overall plant vigor, tissue pigmentations, all aspects of the flower and length of spur etc) will yield a lot of clues. Mostly I just pick the varieties I like best and enjoy them.


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## myxodex (Jun 20, 2010)

Very interesting discussion. The comments above about species variation chime with me. Just take a look at the taxonomic nightmare presented by the cichlid fishes of lake Malawi. I wonder how easy it is to find Neo's in the wild these days and what sort of variation exists. I have to wonder whether the bean leaf types and the pine needle types are adaptations to different micro climates. For example the bean leaf varieties tend not to loose their lower leaves as readily and have thicker leaves thus lowering the surface area to volume ratio ... adaptation to relatively drier conditions possibly? It is probably genetically simpler for leaf variagation to arise, possibly single locus mutations appearing during cultivation and I cannot imagine any advantage in this for a wild plant, but who knows? Do we know of what variation existed out there in the Edo period when people started collecting these ?


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## Lanmark (Jun 20, 2010)

myxodex said:


> It is probably genetically simpler for leaf variagation to arise, possibly single locus mutations appearing during cultivation



Yes, a single _'Nishidemiyako'_ plant can sport baby plants with a number of distinctly different mutations, and each is given a name, like _'Manazuru'_ , _'Tamazuru'_ , and _'Tamanishiki'_ for example.



myxodex said:


> Do we know of what variation existed out there in the Edo period when people started collecting these ?



_'Seikai'_ is a very, very old variety (300+ years) which was most likely originally collected in the wild.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Jun 20, 2010)

myxodex said:


> I wonder how easy it is to find Neo's in the wild these days and what sort of variation exists.



Locally they are nearly extinct. With the exception of perhaps a few islands, these babies are nearly collected out in most areas of Japan. Some local guys told me that 30 years ago they knew a couple mountains that had good populations, but now plants exist only way up in the canopies anymore (20-30 meters up!) because all the lower plants have been collected. Entire businesses were run on collected material, but in Japan at least those days are over. 



> Do we know of what variation existed out there in the Edo period when people started collecting these ?



I can't speak for Edo times, but it is said that finding an unusual variety in the wild even back 30 years ago was difficult - very rare. Certainly the choices in those days must have been much greater. The same holds true for other collectibles like Cymbidium kanran and C. goeringii, Dendrobium moniliforme, all the wild Calanthe species and hybrids, and even Cypripedium macranthos. Still, even now plants are being found that are special. I know of a Cym. goeringii collected just last year with a pure yellow flower that sold for $800 US. Pickings are getting mighty slim though these days.


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## huiray (Jun 21, 2010)

myxodex said:


> ...<snip>... It is probably genetically simpler for leaf variagation to arise, possibly single locus mutations appearing during cultivation ...<snip>





Lanmark said:


> Yes, a single _'Nishidemiyako'_ plant can sport baby plants with a number of distinctly different mutations, and each is given a name, like _'Manazuru'_ , _'Tamazuru'_ , and _'Tamanishiki'_ for example.



My understanding is that the morphs should be separated from the mother plant and grown on and if they themselves then give rise to a pup of the same pattern then they are considered to have stabilized and can properly be given a new name and be submitted for judging. (Submission for judging _and registration_ when you have three individual plants of the same consistent pattern)



KyushuCalanthe said:


> I can't speak for Edo times, but it is said that finding an unusual variety in the wild even back 30 years ago was difficult - very rare. Certainly the choices in those days must have been much greater. The same holds true for other collectibles like Cymbidium kanran and C. goeringii, Dendrobium moniliforme, all the wild Calanthe species and hybrids, and even Cypripedium macranthos. Still, even now plants are being found that are special. I know of a Cym. goeringii collected just last year with a pure yellow flower that sold for $800 US. Pickings are getting mighty slim though these days.



It seems that nowadays most varieties (other than hybrids) arise from either the morphs discussed above, or from mutations in the seedling populations from selfings, or from crosses between "recognized varieties" (notwithstanding the uncertainties alluded to previously) of the species. Mutations from a selfing are said to be about 1 in 100,000 _(see old thread referred to below)_ so there are a lot of plants to go through, and a lot of time involved.

One example of a mutation is the variety SEKIREI (鶺鴒), arising from an OOTAKAMARU (大鷹丸) seedling population. Here's one plant: http://blog.goo.ne.jp/fuuranzannmai/e/062af758d0c31cfc097449f40fb957a9 This variety was pretty expensive but is coming down in price. It is not registered on the _Meikan_.

One example of a cross between "recognized species varieties" is the one between BENIKUJAKU (紅孔雀)(registered variety) and YODONOMATSU (淀の松)(registered variety) which has given rise, as I understand it, to the variety BENIMUSOU (紅無双) amongst others...[MUSOUMARU? (無双丸)] etc etc. These new varieties are not registered.

Here's an informative old thread with Jason Fischer's input: http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1242


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## Linh (Jun 21, 2010)

huiray said:


> most varieties (other than hybrids) arise from either the morphs discussed above, or from *mutations in the seedling populations from selfings*, or from crosses between "recognized varieties" (notwithstanding the uncertainties alluded to previously) of the species. Mutations from a selfing are said to be about 1 in 100,000 _(see old thread referred to below)_ so there are a lot of plants to go through, and a lot of time involved.


Uhh huh! This is exactly what I'm hoping for! My Kuro Shinjyu is selfed in hopes for that very slim chance that I'll get a miniature, variegated bean leaf from it. Oh a woman can only dream...:clap:


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## huiray (Jun 27, 2010)

huiray said:


> One example of a mutation is the variety SEKIREI (鶺鴒), arising from an OOTAKAMARU (大鷹丸) seedling population.



Correction: The above was what I was originally told by a Japanese dealer. It turns out upon further inquiry that this variety (Sekirei) actually arose from a mutation of KAIOUMARU, itself arising from a mutation of the Amami form. The Sekirei-type form of Ootakamaru is a variety called Ootaka-no-yuki.


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