# Afghanistan.



## Stone (Sep 16, 2012)

Firstly..... let people do/believe what they like as long as it doesn't affect others! 
But with all the craziness going on about this anti Islam film ( I haven't seen it ),riots all over the place. ( Kids holding up banners saying ''Behead those who insult the Prophet'' )----Please!!.. Even here in Sydney for the first time ever. It brought home to me yet again the belief that we ( the West ) are wasting our time, money and lives tring to make a difference in Afghanistan. 
Right from the beginning I always believed that as soon as the the US etc. withdrew from there it would go back to exactly how it was within a matter of months. Some former Muslims here are saying the very same.
You hear all these military leaders saying we are doing this and that. We are building schools and hospitals..we are making a difference.
I don't kinow whether its the soldier mentality or whether they are too close to it see the big picture but I never hear them saying ''These people will NEVER be swayed. they look to the ''Afterlife'' for their strength, and they will wait 10, 100 or 1000 years to have their revenge or whatever they believe is important to achieve. (which is undeniable)
So why the hell do we bother.
What are the thoughts in the US on this?


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## gonewild (Sep 16, 2012)

Personally I don't know any who would disagree with you or that think we (USA) should be doing what we are doing.

Military leaders can only say what the President wants them to say or their careers would be over.


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## Rick (Sep 16, 2012)

I'm just glad that my boys are presently state side:clap:


One just got back a week or so ago.


I was definitely against the start of both Iraq and Afghanistan. But when the kids are there, I keep my mouth shut.


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## cnycharles (Sep 16, 2012)

if there was actually some camp that was definitely aimed or had succeeded at sending bad guys over and over to places to blow them up etc, then maybe on a short term it might have had some necessity. but, afghanistan and other places like bosnia just happen to be in areas that are crossroads between others, and people want to control them. (what i've heard on historical channels) the people there (afghanistan) have probably been exposed to so much fighting and flag changing through the centuries, in addition to being migratory somewhat, that they don't so much care what 'government' is in charge; they also in recent history have had invaders there, so fighting 'against the man', is their culture now. they don't have any idea of stability or idea what it is or if it's even desired, and once you have others from the outside bringing in hate and ideas on how to release it, then I don't think there is any future in anything soon there. though i respect other's beliefs or right to have a lack thereof, the belief of the people rioting now is to kill or subjugate anyone that isn't themselves by any means necessary, or won't convert to what they believe.


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## Paul Mc (Sep 16, 2012)

And yet, the video supposedly came from the u.s.! I'm not saying the uprisings were at all justified, nor the killings, but the creator of that film is guilty of just as much hatred as those in the uprisings! Why would you create a film that would create such anger, knowin that good people (and Christians at that, since the creator was supposedly Christian) would be killed in the riots!!!!! What kind of person would do that?!!!! The Middle East may be more outspoken with their extremists, but the U.s. is certainly filled with them as well. 

Sorry for my rant. Just my 2 cents worth.


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## cnycharles (Sep 16, 2012)

sorry, but there are idiots in any country. because one idiot makes a film (look at youtube ), doesn't mean a whole country is 'bad' and you should run around killing people. that's just as idiotic to react that way. so what if the guy sent a video from the united states; I could send a film to timbuktu and have it uploaded by a local there, and they'd kill their ambassador

i didn't watch any video, but try watching some of the anti-west videos that come from the middle and near east; what kind of hatred is expressed in those films? there is extreme, extreme hatred everywhere, there is no need to use something like this to point a finger and start blaming whole groups of people. hatred is everywhere

the point is, people who have succumbed to hatred have no idea or control over what they are doing, or what the outcome will be, nor do they care. the trick is to not let other's hatred push you to the point where you no longer have control over yourself. those who let others push their buttons to get a reaction, then react, and then blame others for their actions are just as guilty as those who start the hatred. nobody can blame someone else for their actions or reactions. the only person who can ultimately control your actions/reactions is 'you'.


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## Paul Mc (Sep 16, 2012)

And I'd like to add two points.

1. It wasn't the entire nation in an uproar,, but a very statistically minimal few. In my mind, that doesn't justify blaming a whole nation or area of the world.

2. I'm sorry if my rants offend anyone. Again, they are a personal opinion. I am obviously reeling from this as much as the next, but I believe that the actions of a few should never speak for the conscious of an entire nation.


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## NYEric (Sep 16, 2012)

I fully support our troops and leadership. Any setback to fundamentalism (of any religion) is a good thing. 
BTW, I heard that the funding of the film was from an American of Coptic background and if any group has reason to stand and portray Islam as "not quite a nice thing" it would be them!


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## Paul Mc (Sep 16, 2012)

Ooooh, thank you for that info!!!! I must research more. I still believe that the creator is just as guilty though. I do understand the perceived "need" for such a film, but the consequences on even the religion that created it do not seem to have been considers. I agree with the above poster that hatred is hatred, and that the goal is to reach beyond it and act with more consciousness than that which was shown, for the good of all people, regardless of creed, nationality, religion...


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## kentuckiense (Sep 16, 2012)

Paul Mc said:


> I still believe that the creator is just as guilty though.



Look, I get what you're trying to say. The guy that made the movie is probably a jerk and very likely hates Islam. However, there is a BIG difference between making a crappy movie and firing a rocket-propelled grenade.

I guess what I'm saying is cultural relativism should never be an excuse for brutality, and that's coming from one of the most liberal people (especially from a civil liberties standpoint; ie the right to make crappy movies about Islam) on this forum.


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## Stone (Sep 16, 2012)

Paul Mc said:


> And I'd like to add two points.
> 
> 1. It wasn't the entire nation in an uproar,, but a very statistically minimal few. In my mind, that doesn't justify blaming a whole nation or area of the world.
> 
> 2. I'm sorry if my rants offend anyone. Again, they are a personal opinion. I am obviously reeling from this as much as the next, but I believe that the actions of a few should never speak for the conscious of an entire nation.



I think you may be surprised at just how widespread this feeling (even though they don't act on it) is among muslims in general. My wife experienced this a couple of years ago when she had a small car accident in a ''Muslim'' neighbourhood a few years ago. She was hit by a muslim woman flying around a corner without looking. After getting out of the car and demonstrating her (wife) discontent (she's American:rollhappy, she was immediately surrounded by a bunch of young men screaminig obsenities and telling her to ''F**k off home to her own country'' These guys were mostly born here! so the feelings are learned again and again.......
Its like talking to a squashed apricot and expecting rationonality.


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## Stone (Sep 16, 2012)

NYEric said:


> > setback to fundamentalism
> 
> 
> No setback!!!...... Just feeding more.


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## Paul Mc (Sep 16, 2012)

I realize my opinion may be in the minority, but I fully believe in considering the consequences of your own actions before acting. I understand that merely thinking about killing someone is far different than actually speaking to someone about commencing those actions or doing them. For me, the bottom line is think before you act, despite your reasons for hatred. I, personally, would never judge anyone on the actions of one or a few to speak for the entire race/religion/whatever. I am a minority myself, but I would hope and pray that people see me as something other than what I see/feel that I am represented as through the actions of others.

Again, I want to express my deepest apologies for any offense these comments may make. I am at heart a believer that all people deserve basic human rights and respect until that person individually has proven otherwise. And even then, I would never deny them their basic human rights.


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## Paul Mc (Sep 16, 2012)

And I do agree, creating a movie isn't the same as cutting someone's throat. However, we all know the volatile nature of that area and this person should have thought more than hated given the potential may have been, even for those Coptic's remaining there

But as the old saying goes, "You just can't fix stupid."


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## NYEric (Sep 16, 2012)

What makes it worse is terrorist seem to have hijacked the protest for their own agenda! I hope the people behind the murders of the Diplomatic Service workers are hunted down and killed like dogs!!


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## Paul Mc (Sep 16, 2012)

I just realized that since I'm on my phone I can't show my location as being from St. Louis, MO, USA. I fear that some may read my comments as an outsider to the nation I was born as raised in. My apologies.


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## NYEric (Sep 16, 2012)

Saint Louis -traitor! :viking:


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## gonewild (Sep 16, 2012)

Paul Mc said:


> Again, I want to express my deepest apologies for any offense these comments may make. I am at heart a believer that all people deserve basic human rights and respect until that person individually has proven otherwise. And even then, I would never deny them their basic human rights.



You never need to apologize for expressing your opinion....never.


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## Paul Mc (Sep 16, 2012)

ROFL!!!!!!

Yes, I am a traitor!!!!! LOL...


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## gonewild (Sep 16, 2012)

NYEric said:


> What makes it worse is terrorist seem to have hijacked the protest for their own agenda! I hope the people behind the murders of the Diplomatic Service workers are hunted down and killed like dogs!!



Or terrorists actually made the movie to create kaos?


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## NYEric (Sep 16, 2012)

Paul Mc said:


> ROFL!!!!!!
> 
> Yes, I am a traitor!!!!! LOL...


Everyone in the world needs to not take everything too seriously!


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## Paul Mc (Sep 16, 2012)

Thank you gonewild, but I strongly want to respect everyone else's opinions. I realize that this topic of politics is of itself a volatile subject of which there are many accepted thoughts and beliefs, even those I cant understand at the moment. I just really hope to not offend anyone with these my personal thoughts. Generally, I am far more mild natured, holding true to my philosophy of basic human respect for all.


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## Stone (Sep 16, 2012)

I just tried reading the comments and couldn't log on. I thought I was banned :sob: I gotta stop bringing this stuff up! Let's keep it coooooooooool


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## Paul Mc (Sep 16, 2012)

LOL...

I'm sorry that you were worried over that. It's just that I've heard a lot of people talking about "just nuking the middle east and being done with it.". That mentality is disturbing to me, personally, and I will be the first to admit that I may have read more into this than was appropriate.

Forums are, after all, only a stripped down version of language that removes all personal background, tone and emotion from the words we want to speak. As a linguist, I should have known better to react with such harsh words to begin with, rather than attempt to calm them down latter.


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## Rick (Sep 16, 2012)

I'm not going to defend the actions of the mob that is rioting and killed our diplomats over a religious slight,.......but it is always curious to me that the spiritual beliefs of Americans have been so bashed by commercialism that we can't see what gets them so blood boiling mad over there, but when we think someone is about to take "our oil" then its "send the attack helicopters in for shock and awe"!!

Face it, the vast majority of Americans care nothing for religion and spirituality. Just cash and consumption. So of coarse we see the Middle East as a collective of religious fanatics.

I am old enough (and living in LA) during the Watt's riots and later with the Rodney King riots. You push the right button at the wrong time, and violence goes nuts. They tore up their own homes and neighborhoods in the process. 

I guess my point is everyone has a button, and there always seems to be some%#%^%^$button pusher out there.


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## abax (Sep 17, 2012)

First the British and the U.S. should stop this "nation building" by invading and/or sending "aid" in the form of
weapons to the middle east. The Bush Admin. accomplished nothing in Iraq except hate and fanaticism
between the Shia'a, Sunni and Kurds who are united by nothing aside from hating the U.S. Afghanistan is the same ole, same ole as it has been for hundreds of years.
The only ones who benefit are arms manufacturers and
the ones hurt the most are women and children.


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## Shiva (Sep 17, 2012)

The muslims pretend that we are at war with them and their way of life, and they're right!. We have always been at war with them, for thousands of years. We all promoted the creation of the State of Israel, in territories that were once occupied by arabs. The jewish people is part of our western culture and it was the thing to do. The muslims violent reaction continues today, feeding on their weakness. In my view the God part is only window dressing. They're just sick of being beaten time after time after time. They have a huge complex of inferiority and it will never go away. We may say, and truly believe, that we don't want a war with the arabs but we are at war, for better or for worse. We are forced to kill the extremists, and everytime one goes down, we're feeding their anti-west frenzy. And there will be collateral damages on both sides. Nobody knows how to end it. In Canada, we have a law to prosecute hate mongers. Maybe the US should go that way too. Fighting extremists on only one side will not work. American extremists are just as dangerous for us.


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## paphreek (Sep 17, 2012)

Shiva said:


> ..... American extremists are just as dangerous for us.



And Minnesota's Sixth district keeps electing one of them to Congress.:evil:


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## Shiva (Sep 17, 2012)

Maybe Obama should send her as a special good will envoy to Afghanistan and she would probably accept. Once in Kabul, she would probably find a way to leave her protection agents behind, and go shopping on her own. She then would tell the Afghans how we do this or that better in America, using her loud mouth. With any luck, she would make a sly remark about Allah and laugh at how funny she is....

Well, we can always fantasize.:rollhappy:


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## keithrs (Sep 17, 2012)

Its a shame any of this happened.... from the film to the riots and killings. 

Having several muslim friends and growing up around them, They can be very dramatic people if you disagree on there beliefs.... especially there profit/religion. I do agree that stems from not having stability in there lives and religion is one thing that has been there for them to believe in. It not just muslims that are like this... Most poor and/or troubled countries are like this. 

Another reason why tolerance needs to be taught in todays society. Just because the film maker has the right to express his points/believes doesn't make it right to make a film on them, then broadcast them on youtube for the whole world to see.


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## TyroneGenade (Sep 18, 2012)

Paul Mc said:


> ...the creator of that film is guilty of just as much hatred as those in the uprisings! Why would you create a film that would create such anger, knowin that good people (and Christians at that, since the creator was supposedly Christian) would be killed in the riots!!!!! ...



I'm not saying that the film creator shouldn't bare some responsibly but to blame him is to blur the moral issues. If we blame him for the violence we, at the same time, excuse the offenders of their actions. It is the people who did the killing, burning etc... who solely bare the responsibility for their actions. Only they had the moral power to decide otherwise. We are all put into situations which excite us to anger and even retaliation but most of use decide otherwise than to kill some one. In the past, this inclination to rise above our emotional impulses used to be called dignity.

I had read that the filmmaker is Jewish (and Islamic lie to besmirch Israel?) but whether they are "jewish" or "christian" their actions are totally opposed to Judeo-Christian morality which stands against hateful speech (larshon hara) in all its forms. While Judeo-Christianity supports free-speech it does limit it and it is unfortunate that Western Society (which is founded on Judeo-Christian values) has tossed politeness under the bus of anything-goes-if-we-can-call-it-freedom-of-expression. Here in South Africa we have the same problem of artists defaming people publicly and calling it freedom of expression to get away with hurting and insulting people. Inscribed on the wall at the Jefferson Memorial is "God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?" Few stop to think that the God who gives freedom of expression also gives the right to life and dignity. You cannot call freedom of expression "right" when it comes at the expense of someone else's dignity or life. Jefferson was about as Christian as Voltaire* but both understood that freedom removed from morality was a recipe for disaster. Voltaire narrowly avoided the ensuing disaster which was the French Revolution (which has had its repeat performance in the Arab Spring) by dying just before the event.

The remarks about people growing up in bad environments and turning bad is another issue which is close to home. Decades of anti-apartheid resistance which constituted plotting terror attacks, violent protests etc... have come full circle. The ANC government, which orchestrated all the resistance, is now powerless to control an uncontrollable population which takes to the streets with the least provocation. They find themselves enacting the same Apartheid -era laws which we used against them for crowd control! The irony is very sad.

It was Nelson Mandela's birthday a few weeks back and an ignoramus on the news declared that Mandela was better than Martin Luther King or Ghandi. I nearly fell of my chair. What Ghandi and King accomplished through non-violence puts them orders of magnitude above Mandela! Both were moral men who were driven by the value of each human life to fight for liberty. It took 20+ years of prison (for attempted murder) and several very kind and Christian guards to get Mandela to reflect on morality and turn him into the statesman he became.

As one of your political commentators points out, the problem here is that there are vastly different views, between Islam and Judeo-Christianity, of just what is moral and right.

*Voltaire wrote to a friend that "I am not a Christian, but it is so that I may love Thee (God) better." On studying the Bible he was convinced of its rightness (like Jefferson) but for the sins of the French Catholic Church couldn't bring himself to accept Christianity. I imagine Jefferson had similar gripes with the "christians" around him.


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## Rick (Sep 18, 2012)

TyroneGenade said:


> I had read that the filmmaker is Jewish (and Islamic lie to besmirch Israel?) but whether they are "jewish" or "christian" their actions are totally opposed to Judeo-Christian morality which stands against hateful speech (larshon hara) in all its forms.



I hope they clean this one up sooner than later. The authorities have been having lots of troubles figuring out exactly who produced the film. There were several fraudulent names and undocumented names with bogus addresses and false paper trails (obviously the "whoever" was trying to be anonamous).

At one point the producer was listed as an American (in Los Angeles) realstate agent of Jewish faith. That turned out to be one of the false/dead ends. The latest (as Eric alluded to) was a Coptic Egyption in Los Angeles.

I have not heard if he has legal US citizenship or is an Egyption national. Apparently he has been in and out of jail several times for other various frauds, and was on some type of restraining order banning him from internet activities.

Suposedly the actors had no clue what the film was about and have expressed deep remorse about getting involved with it in the first place.

This was according to NPR about 3-4 days ago. It may be worth getting on their website to get any updates or a better understanding than I presented.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...yWKqPw?docId=80b06a6ab90443feb4d91aefb6674cc6


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Sep 18, 2012)

This is actually a far more complex situation than it appears on the surface. This film has been a convenient catalyst for the demonstrations in the Mid East, but in many cases it's just the excuse. The Libya situation is unique...that was obviously pre-planned, and the film provided a great, but coincidental, excuse. For the rest, the film is just a convenient excuse for the voicing of anti-US, and secondly, anti-west frustrations. Which in turn leads to the complexity of their complaints, and how much of it is really due to western/US actions, and how much to dumping it on the US scapegoat. Of course, much is made of the "culture clash" and how the Mid East societies have no comprehension of our idea of freedom of speech. Now, there is not much we can do about Mid Eastern societies. I could voice some opinions, but I try to avoid politics on my "hobby" websites. But one thing really bothers me on our end. Yes, we have freedom of speech. And yes, we should be free to criticize any concept, even religious ones. And in doing so, Islam should be as reasonable a target as Christianity, Judaism, Scientology, Hinduism, etc. There are a lot of "shoulds" there! But sometimes "should" doesn't cut it. Is it right to exercise your freedom of speech about a particular religion, knowing that people may well DIE because of your exercise? My son and I have been arguing about Salman Rushdie. My son thinks he was dumb, because he knew about the provocation The Satanic Verses would cause. I think it was very risky, but gutsy...but Salman Rushdie is one person, taking the consequences upon himself. When guys like these produce films, in this climate, and foist them on the world, or a bunch of inbreds burn Korans,then they are spreading the blame and broadening the targets. Should Islam never be criticized, because of the fear of the consequences? NO! But, should such great risks to human lives and stability be taken over a crappy movie made by bitter partisans? Over the burning of Korans by a bunch of people who collectively have fewer teeth than my mouth? With freedom comes responsibility....and when the consequences of expressing freedom are so serious, than it is vitally important that the expression of some of these freedoms comes at a time and place when it can have a value that makes the risk justifiable.


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## quaker (Sep 19, 2012)

On a lighter note the Muslim weather forecast for today is sunny in the morning and shi'ite in the afternoon.
Hope this doesn't offend anyone.


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## Tom499 (Sep 19, 2012)

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

This film was awful, in both production value and content, but I believe, as a supporter of Freedom of Speech, that if someone wants to release and show this they should. 

There is a big elephant in the room regarding Islam, as to whether it is the Religion itself, or its use as a sword and shield for people wanting control.

While it is quite easy to explain the riots in countries of the Middle East and Africa, where Autocracy is the norm, Government censors and controls all, and the people there believe the rest of the world is run the same. Those unemployed, uneducated rioters, who already have 'cause' to hate the West, only need one match to burn a thousand trees. 

Where I do worry however, is when the riots happen in countries like Australia. A country which most would regard as Westernized, where Islamic backed Autocracy is not in charge, where people of many different backgrounds live together. So why aren't some Muslims able to integrate into different societies? Is it because they cling to their values from their previous country? Is it that they feel safe with what they know, are they scared of the new? 

And why do some jump straight to violence? Is it because they live strict, controlled lives, and rioting against the West is the only time they get to blow off steam?

While I do not want to discuss religious indoctrination too much, I feel, that Islam is at a real crossroads. As technology has improved, with the internet reaching further, the tight grip used by these Islamic Autocracies is starting to slip. They can either loosen their grip, like Christianity did, or continue to squeeze and be wary of what pops out. 

Quaker - While your joke isn't that funny  The sooner Islam can learn to take a joke (see the South Park fiasco) the sooner they can move forward.


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## quaker (Sep 19, 2012)

Tom499 said:


> "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
> 
> This film was awful, in both production value and content, but I believe, as a supporter of Freedom of Speech, that if someone wants to release and show this they should.
> 
> ...



I agree fully on what you say Tom. Sorry if you dissaproved of my post but I'm an old man and after living thru the complete 2nd world war there is not much the man in the strret can do about the ways of the world so I was just,rightly or wrongly, trying to put a lighter note on things.
My apologise to you once again.
Ed


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## TyroneGenade (Sep 19, 2012)

Tom499 said:


> There is a big elephant in the room regarding Islam, as to whether it is the Religion itself, or its use as a sword and shield for people wanting control.



This is a very good point. There hasn't been a theocracy yet which didn't end-up as a tyranny with one man (or a small group of people) stirring religious fervor for their own gain. A good case is Thomas Paine's propaganda before the American Revolution using the Bible to stir up "christians" against Britain. After revolution he then produced anti-Christian propaganda in the form of his The Age of Reason. Closer to home, there wasn't an apartheid president who didn't declare that "god" was on our (the white's) side. When someone pointed out Galatians 3:28 (There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus) then the Apartheid government was quick to point out that the church shouldn't meddle in politics. The ANC government has adopted the same routine: God is good for elections but the church must be silent the rest of the time. The Age of Reason hasn't turned out so well. People cave in to their emotions just as easily now as then, and religion and politics is as good an excuse for, and fulcrum to focus, hatred as it ever was. You can always count on people to organize themselves against the most obvious difference, whether its race, culture, religion or the color or a T-shirt. Its just human nature.

If this Copt fellow is a member of a Christian Church I hope the elders have the good sense to excommunicate him. 

FYI: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" was never said by Voltaire (though it is often attributed to him). The phrase comes from Evelyn Beatrice Hall's _The Friends of Voltaire_ (written in 1906). While Voltaire had a cracking good wit and did, in his capacity, champion justice for others, he never used the licence of free speech to slander anyone. His fictional characters, which were in some respects his alter-egos, are always very virtuous. His _Zadig_ is a corruption of the word tzadig which is Hebrew for saint/righteous one. Inherent in his philosophy is strong sense of morality: right and wrong.

P.S. I worry that my opinions may incorrectly suggest that I approve of Government censorship. This is very much NOT the case. A government which can censor evil speech can just as easily censor good speech to serve its purposes.


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## Tom499 (Sep 19, 2012)

quaker said:


> I agree fully on what you say Tom. Sorry if you dissaproved of my post but I'm an old man and after living thru the complete 2nd world war there is not much the man in the strret can do about the ways of the world so I was just,rightly or wrongly, trying to put a lighter note on things.
> My apologise to you once again.
> Ed



Ed! My apologises to you, I meant my comment to be of humour too, and I take no offense atall!  I completely agree with you that it is very important to be able to laugh at a bad situation or occurrence sometimes


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## Rick (Sep 19, 2012)

From what I'm picking up is that the makers of the film were only trying to stir up violence to get the American military to do their fighting/revenge for them.

There was nothing constructive or educational about the contents of the video. It was purely inflamatory. This is not the American value that I want my sons risking their lifes to defend. It burns my butt that "haters" are trying to coopt the use of our sons and daughters to fight equally ignorant hating extremists.


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## chrismende (Sep 23, 2012)

The 'squashed apricot' is a pretty funny image - I'm down on the ground with it pleading that it not hurt me....


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