# Yes, I Want To Know About CHC



## sunshine (Jun 8, 2009)

I searched CHC and did not return any results, so I put in 
coconut husk chips and got a few threads that I looked through.

Is there an overall consensus? Can I grow epiphytic plants in say
the medium CHC?

I do know to get the triple washed type (like Crystal bales).

I was blasted on the Stemma forum for mentioning it. Told that
my plants would die from the salt and that no one in Hawaii EVER
grew any epiphytes in it. (That was from a grower there, I am not
there.)

This is the most scientific forum, you all will know.


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## TyroneGenade (Jun 8, 2009)

CHC were discussed recently at my orchid society meeting. As people were exclaiming how they had killed their Catts etc... in it a thriving Dendrobium hybrid potted in CHC was being passed around... 

If you have hard water which you use to water your plants then it probably isn't a good idea. Because of the fibrous nature of the medium it will soak up water and salts and then allow the water to quickly evaporate, concentrating the salts. This, of course, would be death to any orchid. Of course, this problem applies equally well to any potting medium.

For epiphytes which require more air circulation around the roots, I would suggest you work some polystyrene or stones into the mix to air it.

If you can ensure that this salt build-up doesn't happen then all should be fine. I, personally, haven't tried the stuff.


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## Ernie (Jun 8, 2009)

Where are you? We, and several growers, in the nothern midwest (we're in Chicago) have tried it, but switched out of it because it holds water too long in cooler, "dimmer" weather causing root rot. There is one local grower that makes it work quite well though (Natt's). It can come laden with salts (think where coconut trees live and the entire purpose of the coconut itself- water dispersal in the ocean). It can accumulate salts. BUT a good watering, fertilizing, flushing regimen can alleviate these issues. 

Why are you considering CHC? What are you using now? What is driving you to try CHC? These aren't aggressive questions, just trying to see if there's an underlying issue. 

IMO, you can grow in anything you want as long as you understand the whole "story" of the medium and it's relationship to all other growing conditions... and you're willing to spend the time and money needed to make it work. So, pick something that works well for you and is time and economically acceptable. 

-Ernie


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## paphreek (Jun 8, 2009)

What Ernie says makes a lot of sense. 

I personally use CHC as the base for most of my Paph mixes. I then amend it with charcoal, large perlite, and sometimes fir bark to create a mix that dries out in about a week under my conditions, growing in the house. I water weekly with R/O water, using a MSU formulation fertilizer at a rate of about 100 ppm of N. Every 4-6 weeks I flush with pure R/O water with a small amount of epsom salts. The majority of my plants grow under artificial light (both florescent and HPS) with as much supplemental indirect sunlight as possible.

This formulation is not the ultimate end all mix, but it works for me, right now. I watch all my plants and adjust the mix, light, and/or watering when a plant or group of seedlings does not seem to be doing well. Not every plant works in this type of mix, but most do.


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## sunshine (Jun 8, 2009)

Thanks for the replies. Earnie, I am in Alabama. The reason(s) I wanted
to use it - the medium size just looks so chunky, like it would have air
space and bark breaks down.

I use orchid type mixes for other epiphytic plants as well. I have one
hoya in a pot of loosely added medium size chunk and it is the first
time it seems happy. It seems to stay looser because it is lighter.

But I don't want any declining plants. I have a dendrobium that 
needs a new medium. It is a NOID but one of the Japanese hybrid
types. Did okay in hydroton but not flourish.

In a nutshell, I want to use it as an amendment and with some things
as the medium....just don't want to end up regretting.

Also, Earnie, water is not too hard, but I prefer rainwater. Thanks!


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## 2ljd (Jun 8, 2009)

Hi sunshine,

Just to clear the air, there are folks in Hawaii that use CHC or coconut coir as a base for our medium. As long as it is properly washed/soaked to remove the tanins and salts, it works great. In actuality, I prefer it over bark because as you pointed out, it doesn't break down. Furthermore, it seems to last a lot longer than the bark. I haven't lost a plant yet...paph, phrag or otherwise.


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## Candace (Jun 8, 2009)

I've switched over many of my paphs from semi hydro to a CHC/Perlite mix. So far so good. Though I wash it, soak it relentlessly before use and I mainly use R.O. water.

Orchids can grow in almost anything as was stated. The can grow without media as well as in tires, rock, cow manure...you name it. It really just depends on your conditions. I'd suggest trying it to see if you like it. Hopefully on a plant that's easily replaceable if you decide you and your plants don't care for it.


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## sunshine (Jun 8, 2009)

It seems very logical to me that if so many people 
have not had loss or damage from salt build-up that it
is more than reasonable to use it.

I want to use it. I like it. On some thread I found searching
archives I saw something about soaking it in calcium or 
something. Does anyone do that?


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## sunshine (Jun 8, 2009)

Also, one more question:

Is it important to get it from Crystal Company or could another
orchid supplier be okay?

I would ask about the name of the business but not sure if it
is okay on the forum. (?)


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## paphreek (Jun 8, 2009)

I get all my CHC from The Crystal Company and have had no complaints. I soak mine for 3 days, rinsing each day. I add some epsom salt to the first soaking. Here is a link to an article on CHC written by Bob and Lynn Wellenstein on AnTec's website. This article provides good information on preparing and using CHC in orchid mixes.
http://www.ladyslipper.com/coco3.htm


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## Renegayde (Jun 8, 2009)

currently I am using a mix of Aussie Gold and a CHC mix from Kelly's http://www.kkorchid.com/1medium_potting.asp#kkspecialanchor ..... I mix them about half and half and it works for me.....though I do find I do not have to water as often probably because of CHC and also maybe the diatomite? I got some plants the other day in a mix though that I am thinking about switching to which was Rexius Bark, Pumice, and Charcoal.....just sort of like the way it looks and perhaps it might dry faster than my current mix

Todd


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## sunshine (Jun 8, 2009)

Does anyone use Repotme.com?


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## Renegayde (Jun 8, 2009)

just my opinion but I thought repotme was a bit expensive

Todd


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jun 8, 2009)

In my experience, CHC is the best medium I have ever used for most epiphytes...cattleya's, oncidioids, vandaceous, and dendrobiums love it....on repotting, after several years, the medium is packed solidly with roots. On the other hand, phal's and pleurothallids hate it. For terrestrials, its OK as an addition to a cymbidium mix. For slippers, phrags hate it...I gave up on using it for paphs. On repotting, paphs will do really well, then decline. In all fairness, not all paphs..multiflorals like philipinense love CHC...but others like haynaldianum hate it. Barbata hate it....insigne types and cochlo's tolerate it well enough...brachy's and parvis do Ok in it, but delanatii hates it. Overall, I just use bark based mix for all slippers now...but CHC exclusively for most epiphytes. And, yes, I soak it thoroughly, at least 3 times...5 gal water to 1 gal CHC, with the second soaking conatining MgSO4 and calcium nitrate......Take care, Eric


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## sunshine (Jun 8, 2009)

Great information!

I know about MgSO4 (epsom's) but where do you get calcium
nitrate? What are the concentrations for a 5 gallon bucket?

Todd, thanks for the opinion. I'll get the chunk from Crystal.
Any way to order online or do you have to call?


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## NYEric (Jun 8, 2009)

Candace said:


> I've switched over many of my paphs from semi hydro to tires, rock, cow manure...you name it. I'd suggest trying it to see if you like it.


 :evil: 
LMAO! I couldn't even finish reading the rest of the thread! :rollhappy:

OK, I use CHC, I started after some Porthos got a root into a pot of some and before I knew it the pot was full of roots. After all the fervor about salt build up I use less of it in the mix, that's the only ammendment.


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## sunshine (Jun 8, 2009)

Do you notice salt build-up with it?

Does anyone using the washed type notice a build-up?
In how much time?


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## Candace (Jun 8, 2009)

> LMAO! I couldn't even finish reading the rest of the thread!



Oops, forgot the "it". Meant to say I've switched over many of my paphs to it and others grow in....

Too funny. Maybe I'm drunk and I don't know it?


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## NYEric (Jun 8, 2009)

No, I did not but I don't really pay attention to the chemical issues. IMO, the most detrimental factor in Orchid growing is the break down of media so as long as the material stays whole I'm OK.

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist messing with your post Candace.


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## emydura (Jun 8, 2009)

I grow most Paphs in it OK, including the Barbata group. I am still working out how to use it best. It certainly is a lot different to bark. I have found I must use much shallower pots than I did with bark. I also use CHC's that are a size bigger than I would use with bark. I mix CHC's with lava rock to break it up a bit.

I find that CHC's initially dry out very quickly. For the first couple of months I'm watering it more often than bark. Pots are drying out within a day or two. But after a while it starts to retain a lot more moisture. Because of this I initially made the mistake of use too small a mix. This was fine to start with but after 6 months or so it was retaining way too much moisture and I had to repot them all in a larger mix. I generally repot in autumn so so that the mix is retaining more moisture come summer.

I find that I get much bigger, stronger growths with CHC but inferior root systems. Which contradicts most theories.

David


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## Rick (Jun 8, 2009)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> In my experience, CHC is the best medium I have ever used for most epiphytes...cattleya's, oncidioids, vandaceous, and dendrobiums love it....on repotting, after several years, the medium is packed solidly with roots. On the other hand, phal's and pleurothallids hate it. For terrestrials, its OK as an addition to a cymbidium mix. For slippers, phrags hate it...I gave up on using it for paphs. On repotting, paphs will do really well, then decline. In all fairness, not all paphs..multiflorals like philipinense love CHC...but others like haynaldianum hate it. Barbata hate it....insigne types and cochlo's tolerate it well enough...brachy's and parvis do Ok in it, but delanatii hates it. Overall, I just use bark based mix for all slippers now...but CHC exclusively for most epiphytes. And, yes, I soak it thoroughly, at least 3 times...5 gal water to 1 gal CHC, with the second soaking conatining MgSO4 and calcium nitrate......Take care, Eric



My experience with CHC is similar to Erics, however, my collection is mostly paphs, and its not a big collection, so my multis are in CHC while I'm still playing around with various bark mixtures for Barbata. I get my CHC from Robert's Flower Supply, who tell me that their source is Sri Lankan. At one time Sri Lankan was superior to Mexican since it seemed that Mexican CHC had problems desalting no matter how you tried to rinse it.


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## Renegayde (Jun 9, 2009)

when you talk about certain Paph groups not growing well in CHC are you talking about in just CHC or a mix with CHC in it? I have several delenatiis growing in the mix I use and so far they are doing ok

Todd


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## sunshine (Jun 9, 2009)

I went to the Roberts Flower Supply site and it has several
options for chc.

I am assuming (not always safe without asking) that it is 
straight chunk either bagged or a bale?

I ask because I saw a compressed brick offered, but it was
the coir (peat-type) and chunk mixed. 

As for size - I am thinking in the medium range for epiphytes.
Does that sound right?


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## Rick (Jun 9, 2009)

Renegayde said:


> when you talk about certain Paph groups not growing well in CHC are you talking about in just CHC or a mix with CHC in it? I have several delenatiis growing in the mix I use and so far they are doing ok
> 
> Todd



I've never tried straight CHC except for some Catts (which have done just fine in it straight up). But the barbata type paphs (wardii, callosum, sukhakulii, barbatum, appletoniuanum, etc.) have been in mixes with sphagnum, sponge rock and charcoal (varying). For me, some have done OK for a year or two, but even with annual (or more frequent) repotting they ended up doing poorly. I rarely have problems with multis in CHC mixes at all in comparison.


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## Rick (Jun 9, 2009)

sunshine said:


> I went to the Roberts Flower Supply site and it has several
> options for chc.
> 
> I am assuming (not always safe without asking) that it is
> ...



I've never tried the coir, just small or medium chunk. Bag or bale just depends on how much you want for your $.

Even though they say its fully rinsed, I still go through a whole rinsing process when I get it , including a spike with Ca/Mg phosphate and MgSO4


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## sunshine (Jun 9, 2009)

Where to get the calcium nitrate?

The MgSO4 is easy enough.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jun 9, 2009)

First Ray's sells CaNO3...he's on this group. I only use plain CHC on Cattleya's and other epiphytes. When I still used it on paphs, it was part of a mix with lots of sponge rock, charcoal, lava rock....if you use it on paphs, make sure that there is lots of aeration in the mix...and repot frequently.


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## Renegayde (Jun 9, 2009)

hmmm perhaps I should start looking for a place to buy some inexpensive Rexius Bark, Pumice, and Charcoal.


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## emydura (Jun 10, 2009)

I was having a lot of trouble with various Barbata species (callosum, purpuratum, hookerae etc) in bark. The leaves were dying off quicker than they could be replaced. I tried CHC's and they have never looked back. I think it all depends on your culture. CHC's are a lot different to bark. Hence your culture must be different as well. CHC's will suit some peoples culture but not others.

I have found CHC's take a long time to break down. If you need to repot regularly with it, you are not starting off with the right mix. You need a coarser mix and a shallower pot. I would also never combine it with sphagnum moss. I did to begin with as I initially found CHC's on its own dried out too fast. However after a few months the mix became so clogged up it would never dry out.

David


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## Ernie (Jun 10, 2009)

Renegayde said:


> hmmm perhaps I should start looking for a place to buy some inexpensive Rexius Bark, Pumice, and Charcoal.



Hausermann's had Rexius bark last time I was there. Oak Hill has graded charcoal. 

-Ernie


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## Ernie (Jun 10, 2009)

I think it is clear from this discussion one of my original points that everyone's conditions are different. Some can grow anything in it, others only Coryos, others Barbata... Look at the geography of your respondants too- NY, CA, IL, Australia, MN, South Africa, etc. How do they compare to AL? 

Therefore, if you WANT it to work, the correct question to ask is "hey all of you that like it, what are your conditions (water, year-round min max temps, light, GH or lights, ammendments, pot types (plastic, clay, tall, short, clear, opaque, lotsa holes, few...), fertilizer, media prep, etc???" 

Anyway, I love playing with mixes. Go for it! Try some plants in CHC and see how they do. Good luck! Have fun! 

-Ernie


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## Ernie (Jun 10, 2009)

All of this being said, when choosing a mix, I'd recommend to use components that are...

available
affordable (unit cost and shipping!)
consistent 

-Ernie


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## NYEric (Jun 10, 2009)

Ernie, when have any of those factors mattered in orchids!?


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## Rick (Jun 10, 2009)

Ernie said:


> I think it is clear from this discussion one of my original points that everyone's conditions are different. Some can grow anything in it, others only Coryos, others Barbata... Look at the geography of your respondants too- NY, CA, IL, Australia, MN, South Africa, etc. How do they compare to AL?
> 
> Therefore, if you WANT it to work, the correct question to ask is "hey all of you that like it, what are your conditions (water, year-round min max temps, light, GH or lights, ammendments, pot types (plastic, clay, tall, short, clear, opaque, lotsa holes, few...), fertilizer, media prep, etc???"
> 
> ...



Right on Ernie.

I'm in TN (just an hour or so away from the AL border. So conditions are close (just a tad cooler) than most Al conditions. But there are still a ton of other variables as you noted. There are some great growers in the Huntsville and Birmingham societies that I'm sure also use CHC at some level. So there should be somebody within driving range down there in Al for you to access.

Rick


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## sunshine (Jun 10, 2009)

Right.

I'm getting a good picture.

One point Earnie brings up that is pertinent is with
regard to fertilizing.

If you are not repotting often, for whatever reason, are
you getting build-up? (That sort of applies anywhere.)


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## emydura (Jun 10, 2009)

Ernie said:


> All of this being said, when choosing a mix, I'd recommend to use components that are...
> 
> available
> affordable (unit cost and shipping!)
> ...



We have only been able to use CHC's here in Australia in the last 2 or 3 years. So we are still coming to terms with it.

CHC's are certainly cheaper. It is less than half the price of bark and you don't need to repot as often. I'd say it is about the 1/5 of the price of bark all up.

David


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jun 10, 2009)

I must add that i pot my paphs in tall pots. CHC plants, when repotted, had new roots only on top...deep roots were dead, and the bottom CHC chips were surprisingly broken down after a year in the mix...as bad as bark. However...could US sources of CHC be different from Australian? Take care, Eric


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## emydura (Jun 11, 2009)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> I must add that i pot my paphs in tall pots. CHC plants, when repotted, had new roots only on top...deep roots were dead, and the bottom CHC chips were surprisingly broken down after a year in the mix...as bad as bark. However...could US sources of CHC be different from Australian? Take care, Eric



That is my experience as well. The roots don't tend to go very deep. That is why I prefer shallower/wider pots. I use deep pots for bark as well. 

I'm sure there are differences between the various suppliers. There is only one place in Australia you can buy reliable CHC's. The others are terrible. Have too much fine stuff and I think too much salt. The company I get mine from have started shipping it in from Sri Lanka over the last couple of years. They have gone to a lot of trouble to promote CHCs as previous experiences with CHC's in this country has been terrible. Many growers swear they will never use it again as a result. My provider guarantees that the mix has a maximum salt level and tests regularly to ensure that it doesn't exceed safe limits. I heard recently they rejected a whole shipment as they were unhappy with the level of salt. I'm not sure other sellers are so conscientious.

David


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## Rick (Jun 11, 2009)

sunshine said:


> Right.
> 
> I'm getting a good picture.
> 
> ...



The multis I have in it generally go for 2 or so years before repotting. I don't see the typical signs of salt buildup, but I also irrigate during the rest of the time with RO water, only fertilizing on Sundays. If you looked at the recent thread of my stonei, and look up another big thread titled To Chc Or Not To Chc? (last post in 11/2008 in the slipper culture section), you would also see that I use pretty small pots for large plants. So it doesn't take much water to flush out the pots, and they dry quicker between waterings.

As Ernie pointed out there's a ton of variables to consider.


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## Bob Wellenstein (Jun 12, 2009)

Sunshine, congratulations, you have started what became the sanest, most thoughtful and useful thread on this subject I've seen. You've gotten great input from folks who have good experience. You will notice a couple of common themes, you can grow Paphs in just about anything as long as it supports the roots and holds some moisture and air, and does not contain toxic substances in concentration. A few years backm when he was alive, Nic von Bosch from Tasmania would have suggested fresh horse manure with which he was very successful. Second theme is you have to match your conditions. High humidity gives you lots of leeway, if you have low humidity you really have to finetune. Do not let people convince you Paphs will die if they dry out once in a while, this is just not true and quite frankly they would have pretty much perished from the earth long ago if it was. Ideally you will design a mix that will approach drying without being "bone" dry in about three days. Many use multiple component mixes with water retentive items such as CHC or bark or moss, and less water retentive items such as sponge rock and charcoal so they can fine tune the mix to meet the above. Humidity, pot such, plant size particularly with regard to the root system, temperature, light and many other factors will affect the rate of drying. Another theme is that the same components are not always of the same quality. We tested and used CHC when the quality bark we had been using became unavailable, and only precomposted bark was on the market. Later, we saw the quality of CHC we could get deteriorate, but good bark again became available. Whatever you use, learn how to prepare it properly, be it pre-soaking bark or properly rinsing CHC in an ion exchange process, do not rely on the suppliers statements. And finally, with a few exception regular repotting really is useful, the exceptions we have found are stonei and sanderianum where you have to be ultra careful not to disturb the root system, and the really fat rooted brachys. Also, always be aware that change in mix that creates a dramatic shift in the moisture air ratio of the root systems environment will cause some initial root loss, the goal is to time it so that the new root growth will be vigorous, for example if you live in the north where I do mid winter is not a good time to change mixes, rather wait for spring. Well, I've probably used up most of my spare time for the month, but it was really encouraging to see such consistently thoughtful responses.


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## Rick (Jun 12, 2009)

To endorse Bob's comments. The biggest improvement to all my orchid growing (regardless of species, potting mix, or fertilizer regime) happened when I conciously monitored and manipulated air humidity.

When I controled air humidity from the ambient 30-60 to a constant 70+, it was like a switch was thrown in the GH and growth went wild for the vast majority of my collection.

Potting mixes and fertilizer regimes are now like fine tuning to try to improve longevity, control periodic disease, and increase size of the stubborn persnickety species.

Since increasing humidity I've been growing a handful of vandas with no substrate at all, just hanging in an empty basket/pot or simple wire.I have a Vanda roebelingii that I have just propped up amongst the leaves of a Bulbo grandiflorum that I haven't got around to officially setting up in its own basket/mount for almost a year. It's been growing roots and leaves at a pretty high rate.


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## Ernie (Jun 12, 2009)

Well, Bob.... a lot of us here learned from the best.  Good to hear from you. 

-Ernie


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## sunshine (Jun 16, 2009)

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread.
It has proven extremely helpful.

And fortifies my belief that this is the best place
to get tried and true usable information.


Best regards,


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## etex (Dec 11, 2009)

I second that! It is the best place to get reliable information! Good thread. I am sticking with bark mix.


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