# When to warn against sellers?



## P.K.Hansen (May 3, 2019)

I've bought quite a few plants on ebay - mostly without any issues.
But I have a few plants from a seller, which have not turned out to be what they were sold as.
Big White hybrid is a big green one instead, violascens is a barbatum. I have one more from him, and I doubt it'll be correct either. I have heard from another buyer with the same experience.
But the question is, how many screwups does it take, before it is fair to warn others against buying from him?
He did offer to take the first plant back, but sending it from Denmark to the UK just doesn't make sence unless he'd pay for it - which wasn't offered. He hasn't responded to my complains about the second plant.

Didn't know where to post this, so I decided it's under problems


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## troy (May 3, 2019)

Alot of people visit this website is a perfect spot, if I was you I would warn others of this guy or woman fraudulently selling plants to people immeadetly, especially after 3 wrong plants


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## eds (May 3, 2019)

I think if you accurately state what you ordered, what you were sent and what offer, if any, there was to fix it then no seller could say you were being unfair in posting that on a forum and it would help those of us who buy stuff from eBay over here (just debating a few purchases from a seller as I type so hoping it's not them!)


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## abax (May 3, 2019)

Right here is the best place to put a notice
that a seller is dishonest...also compliment
those vendors who are dependable and honest.
FYI, I stay away from ebay at all times unles
I know the seller.


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## Ray (May 4, 2019)

I don't know about eBay's policies outside of the US, but if you did not get what you paid for, you may be able to open a dispute and ultimately not pay for it at all.


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## Ozpaph (May 5, 2019)

The problem with ebay disputes is that in most cases the plant flowers months/years later, well past the deadline for feedback or disputes.


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## Hien (May 6, 2019)

P.K.Hansen said:


> I've bought quite a few plants on ebay - mostly without any issues.
> But I have a few plants from a seller, which have not turned out to be what they were sold as.
> Big White hybrid is a big green one instead, violascens is a barbatum. I have one more from him, and I doubt it'll be correct either. I have heard from another buyer with the same experience.
> But the question is, how many screwups does it take, before it is fair to warn others against buying from him?
> ...


here is what I think:
1) "Big White hybrid is a big green one instead" with hybrid, there is no guarantee until the plant flowers, it can look like the father, or the mother, or all the sizes,shades and forms in between the two parents.
Unless the vendor post the plant in flower, and say this is the exact plant, the exact flower the buyer will receive, otherwise it is just an example flower from the batch, and the next photos are the available juvenile plants, sometimes the seller will say "WYSIWYG" which means "what you see is what you get"

2) "violascens is a barbatum" the problem with this is unless the seller or his/her supplier is very experience, the two plant do have almost similar leaves ' pattern, again without flower you may not be able to tell, further more, unless the plant is line breeding and grown from flasks, or division from a violascens, the misidentifying can happen, especially if the plants are exported from south east asia, the wild collectors can only guess what it is , let's say they see a bunch of plants grow in the same spot, and one of them in flower as violascens , they will assume the rest of them are violascens, but in nature plants will grow on the same spots. I see it in posted youtube, in Vietnam, many times the buyers from the cities bought plants from the highlanders, when flowers , what looks like just one big plant of dendrobium turn out to be 3 or 4 different unrelated species grow so tightly together on a chunk of wood.

3) the last of my opinion is , it is always nice to warn your slippertalk fellows of vendors with problems (not necessary dishonest sellers, could be just inexperience) so we can approach him/her with precaution


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## mrhappyrotter (May 6, 2019)

Ozpaph said:


> The problem with ebay disputes is that in most cases the plant flowers months/years later, well past the deadline for feedback or disputes.



That's the crux of the problem in general, particularly when you're buying immature slipper orchids. It takes so long before they bloom that if it turns out they are incorrectly labeled, you're mostly at the mercy of whomever you bought them from, whether you purchased through Ebay, directly from the vendor, or otherwise.


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## P.K.Hansen (May 7, 2019)

I agree that the seller has to believe his supplier, and that the problems may be there. But it has been nearly a week since I wrote him about the plant, and he has not responded. That is a problem for me - not being willing to adress the issue.
in regards of the hybrid, it was sold as a White Knight, which is a nice round, flat shape (and White  ) but the plant In got is none of that.


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## pluckerup (May 7, 2019)

It is a sad fact that orchids are mislabeled all the way through the supply chain, from breeder, lab, distributor, nursery, retailer to the end user. Hybrids can turn out far different to what is expected.
Sometimes orchids are deliberately mislabeled by labs or distributors to make sales. Typically the majority are honest and try to do the right thing.


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## monocotman (May 7, 2019)

It depends. White knight is a very desirable white cross and worth many times what the plant you pictured is worth.
If it one particular vendor I am thinking of, who sells divisions of many very rare orchids, then it is likely to be a fraud. It is worth looking at the negative feedback on this vendor, if there is any,
Davis


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## Guldal (May 8, 2019)

One vendor (the one Davis talks about) is definately an outright crook, that people on this site has been warned about innumerable times... the tricky thing about him is, that he is working under different guises on ebay... his signature, though, is the barrage of viscious, vitriolic counter attacks everytime he gets negative feedback... I would say that that alone ought to be a warning post crying to heaven: DO NOT SHOP HERE!

The seller of your hybrid and the other two mislabeled plants I don't suspect of being a devious and calculating fraud...albeit, your experiences of communication and dealing with him is definately in no way satisfying...I think it would be okay for you to share your experience here with other STC-members... but in this case I, myself, would keep to a rather factual description of events instead of going into an interpretation of motives and intentions... If the mislabellings are accidental or the handling of the case due to incompetence, then at least you would have kept yourself free of being guilty of libelious action! And if you and the seller in the due course of time reach a more satisfactory solution of the problems, you can just make an update in the thread later 

And btw who would deal with a minor UK-based vendor after Brexit? (duties and taxes, CITES-permits for species, etc. etc.) 

Kind regards,
Jens


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## P.K.Hansen (May 9, 2019)

This is not a "burn the witch", vendeta kind of thing, and I have no interest in starting a flame war against anybody.
But the silence from his side pisses me off, I'll gladly admit. I'll give him a few days more before mentioning any names.
You've had the pleasure of dealing with him too Jens


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## Duck Slipper (May 10, 2019)

I have kept away from eBay for orchids for the above reasons...I have bought numerous duck calls from eBay,but you know what your getting and I have never bought anything from eBay overseas. Certainly post any problems on this forum,a very good place to air grievances.
I would like to add...we have many excellent retailers available here in the states! I have purchased from Orchid Inn, Piping Rock, Orchids Limited, and all purchases were in excellent condition. I have also purchased Orchids from people on this forum, with excellent results and high quality plants. Duck


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## NYEric (May 10, 2019)

I've bought many eBay orchids and, with one rat-f()cker exception, been very pleased. Start the dispute, if you think you will get resolution. Better, ask them for a replacement so you can send the mislabeled plant back. Best way to get plants is at a show or at the vendor. Good luck.


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## Guldal (May 28, 2019)

I wonder, whether you some how have reached any conclusion in your deliberations over, whether to warn against these sellers or not?

If the same one(s) were involved in the low grade quality barbatums sold as respectively argus and violascens (https://www.slippertalk.com/threads/paph-barbatum-s.47860/), I would in your shoes have been pretty pissed-off by now! Or maybe you've decided just to let them roast in the eternal darkness of their Brexit?


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## P.K.Hansen (May 29, 2019)

Well Jens, as we talked about, *BlakesBothanicals* never answered, so here you have him 
As for the two other UK-sellers I'm a bit reluctant yet.


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## Guldal (Jun 3, 2019)

Well, I gather one of the other ebay-sellers in question is *Airplanefran. *I for my part won't hesitate in outing her - I bought a couple of plants from her in the beginning of my career as paphioholic, and neither showed up in the end to be the species, they were advertised as... Both just complex hybrids and really not interesting such ones!

I was under the impression then, that she was a hobbyseller and maybe unwittingly had just mentioned only one of the species involved in the grex by mistake... but as I've now seen she is still in the game, I get second thoughts... and I for one wouldn't touch any of her plants with a barge pole!


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## Guldal (Jun 3, 2019)

Now we have named two so far... maybe you should inform the Forum about your experiences dealing with the third party - so that the gloomy cloud of suspicion shouldn't loom over the decent british ebay-sellers (as for example Mark of Elite Orchids to mention one)!


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## P.K.Hansen (Jun 4, 2019)

I have absolutely nothing bad to say about Elite Orchids.
Airplanefran is one of them. The labels on the plants are writting in the same handwriting as those from blakes. Hard to ignore.


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## Elite Orchids (Jun 4, 2019)

very kind Guidal - it was because of Airplanfran that we set Elite orchids up - i bought consortipetalum, lowiis, sanderianum's, beseae flavum's from her - none of which were true to form. so i decided there may be space for a company that isn't the cheapest, but offer's plants "in flower" and in clear pots so you can see the roots - therefore the customer can be fairly confident with what they are buying.


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## P.K.Hansen (Jun 5, 2019)

Elite Orchids. Sorry if anybody thought you were one of sellers mentioned.
I've so far only bought a large haynaldianum from you - which is doing great. You do have a few on your list that I consider though 
But as mentioned in my last post - NOTHING bad to say about you or your business.


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## Guldal (Jun 11, 2019)

Per, I didn't mean to imply, that you stated anything negative about Mark & Elite... I only thought that we should name the other culprits - or should one say culbrits?!

So far two of the three has been identified. Has the time come to out the last of your negative adventures? Or did he/she return with a satisfying reaction?



P.K.Hansen said:


> I've so far only bought a large haynaldianum from you....



I thought, you didn't do larger multiflorals?!


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## P.K.Hansen (Jun 12, 2019)

Guldal said:


> I thought, you didn't do larger multiflorals?!


I (almost) don't 
That haynaldianum is a rather compact plant.


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## Elite Orchids (Jun 12, 2019)

Guldal said:


> Per, I didn't mean to imply, that you stated anything negative about Mark & Elite... I only thought that we should name the other culprits - or should one say culbrits?!
> 
> So far two of the three has been identified. Has the time come to out the last of your negative adventures? Or did he/she return with a satisfying reaction?
> 
> ...


no worries - no offence taken. i have a couple i could name......but it wouldn't be appropriate


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## P.K.Hansen (Jun 13, 2019)

The last one on my list won't be mentioned because the plants weren't sold as a different species, but they were much smaller than promised,or have been of poor quality and died quickly after arrival. So I haven't been able to flower a single one of them yet, and therefor can't say wether they are correct labeled or not.


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## P.K.Hansen (Sep 18, 2019)

I just want to share a pic of the last of my "paph. violascens" I bought from Blakessbothanical.
That makes it three out of three wrong.
No idea what it is. About 30-50% bigger than my Maudiae.


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## Elite Orchids (Dec 11, 2019)

talking about the above suppliers - this is violascens i bought from him/her - as you can see - not as described - possibly a hybrid - anybody got any guesses? thanks


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## BrucherT (Dec 12, 2019)

Have orchid fanciers not yet begun sending samples off for DNA sequencing? You can have it done for $10 per sample, in bulk. That would settle so many mysteries...


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## littlefrog (Dec 12, 2019)

Elite Orchids said:


> talking about the above suppliers - this is violascens i bought from him/her - as you can see - not as described - possibly a hybrid - anybody got any guesses? thanks


Paph. argus x some sort of Maudiae?


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## littlefrog (Dec 12, 2019)

BrucherT said:


> Have orchid fanciers not yet begun sending samples off for DNA sequencing? You can have it done for $10 per sample, in bulk. That would settle so many mysteries...


The main problem with that (I used to do genomics and high throughput sequencing...) is that while the price has come down to very good levels, you need reference material. You can't identify an unknown without something to compare it to. Even then it might not be trivial, I think a lot of our 'species' are really varieties and not as genetically distinct as you might hope. Not that this is a technical limitation (we do it with humans), but you need vast databases of samples to build a model that is reliable. We can't even do it reliably with humans yet (particularly humans who aren't of european descent), no matter what the DNA ancestry companies might say.


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## BrucherT (Dec 13, 2019)

littlefrog said:


> The main problem with that (I used to do genomics and high throughput sequencing...) is that while the price has come down to very good levels, you need reference material. You can't identify an unknown without something to compare it to. Even then it might not be trivial, I think a lot of our 'species' are really varieties and not as genetically distinct as you might hope. Not that this is a technical limitation (we do it with humans), but you need vast databases of samples to build a model that is reliable. We can't even do it reliably with humans yet (particularly humans who aren't of european descent), no matter what the DNA ancestry companies might say.



interesting, especially considering that we are doing exactly this with fungi, which have untold numbers of genera with a thousandfold the possible diversity of Paphiopedilum. It’s a matter of running lots of sequences and putting them online for others to run theirs against. The species concept becomes better and better defined the more specimens are run and cryptics can be identified. For an example, check out the Mycoflora Project.


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## littlefrog (Dec 15, 2019)

Completely agree, we just need somebody to take the lead on it and fund it for slippers. Maybe somebody is already working on it - I've been out of the DNA business for more than a few years now. If the only reason somebody isn't doing it is because they don't have bioinformatics support... Well, I'd dust off the keyboard for that project, just let me know.


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