# what do you think?



## Renegayde (Oct 6, 2008)

ok I bought a couple of plants off e-bay they are Paph Grassau which is Paph Victoria-Regina x Delenatii which I was a bit disappointed in when I opened the box....they were advertised as Large Multi-Growth seedlings and this is what I got....2 seedlings that both have 2 growths and leaf spans of about 8"-10" on each of the larger growths....think I have a right to be upset?

Todd

forgive the one sitting on top of newspaper....after paying $19 for shipping I opened the box to find most of the medium spilled out of that one....FYI those are 5" pots they are in


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## Candace (Oct 6, 2008)

Well technically they are multi-growth seedlings. And 'large' is in the eye of the beholder.. I guess I would have to ask what they are and what you paid for each. I wouldn't be thrilled at the shipping cost and how they were packed. I don't buy plants sight unseen on ebay. Maybe consider this a lesson learned.


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## biothanasis (Oct 6, 2008)

You could ask half refund if you can grow them well in the condition they are and apparently you are not pleased with what promised by the seller!!!! So you should leave feedback with adequate ratings in the details of the transaction...! Good luck...!


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## Renegayde (Oct 6, 2008)

Normally I do not buy plants without pictures of the actual plants but in this case I thought they were reputable and there would be no problems....sorry I forgot to put that they are both Paph Grassau=Paph Victoria-Regina x Delenatii....as far as what I paid for them.....I realize that at $5.01 apiece they are not that expensive however as they were advertised as large and multi-growth I could have ended up paying more.....there were 5 plants in the auction and I won 2 of them.....I e-mailed the seller and expressed my dissatisfaction.....also adding that to me when you use multi growth and large to describe them that I was expecting 3-5 growth plants.....price wise yeah they are worth the money though the shipping was a bit much and then being forced to buy insurance that brought the total per plant to $16.00 each.....

Todd


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## nikv (Oct 6, 2008)

Todd,

Bummer! I purchase a lot of my orchids on eBay and haven't had too many problems. I think it's a gutsy move to bid on orchids that don't have a photo. Practically everyone has a digital camera these days. As for a remedy, I would wait and see what the seller does in response to your dissatisfaction. If nothing, then I'd consider giving negative feedback. Surely, the shipping charges couldn't have been anywhere close to nineteen dollars. And to require insurance on a 5.01 item is bogus. And the plants should have been taped up enough so that the potting medium didn't spill out. Anyway, good luck to you! I'd like to see photos of them when they bloom!

Best Regards,
Nik


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## goldenrose (Oct 6, 2008)

Candace said:


> Well technically they are multi-growth seedlings. And 'large' is in the eye of the beholder.. I guess I would have to ask what they are and what you paid for each. I wouldn't be thrilled at the shipping cost and how they were packed. I don't buy plants sight unseen on ebay. Maybe consider this a lesson learned.


Sorry I have to agree with Candace on this one. Anything more than a single growth, can be called multi-growth. Honest people would state 1 mature growth & 1 start or NBS.



Renegayde said:


> Normally I do not buy plants without pictures of the actual plants but in this case I thought they were reputable and there would be no problems....sorry I forgot to put that they are both Paph Grassau=Paph Victoria-Regina x Delenatii....as far as what I paid for them.....I realize that at $5.01 apiece they are not that expensive however as they were advertised as large and multi-growth I could have ended up paying more.....there were 5 plants in the auction and I won 2 of them.....I e-mailed the seller and expressed my dissatisfaction.....also adding that to me when you use multi growth and large to describe them that I was expecting 3-5 growth plants.....price wise yeah they are worth the money though the shipping was a bit much and then being forced to buy insurance that brought the total per plant to $16.00 each.....Todd



$5 a plant is a steal. Shipping & insurance is absolutely ridiculous BUT you knew this before you bid?


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## gonewild (Oct 6, 2008)

I think considering the cross they could be considered as large seedlings.
Multi growth? Not really. One growth with a new start, yes.

In the old days a paph growth was considered to be a plant with 1 old growth and 1 new mature unbloomed growth and one new growth starting. But in those days even the cheapest (ugliest) paph was worth way more than $5.

As far as shipping, you got ripped off. Not for the amount you paid but for the sloppy job they gave you.

All said and done the plants you got are worth the $15 you paid (assuming you wanted the hybrids), even if they were bare root.


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## Renegayde (Oct 6, 2008)

yeah I knew the shipping charges up front....although I thought for the $$ they were going to be shipped fedex and not USPS priority mail flat rate box.....they had some sort of grab bag Cat, Phal, I think Den and something else for like $1 a plant but the combined shipping was so much that I questioned it and knew up front what the shipping charges were going to be for the Paph auction....in this case $12 for the first Paph and $7 for the second Paph......LOL I wish I had taken pics of them in the box....they were shipped in a flat rate box that is suppose to be 3" thick I guess....so the 5" pots were squeezed into a oval shape to get them in the box.....and I agree that the plants were worth more than $5.00 however they started the bidding on this auction at .99 cents per plant.....I think that no matter if the plants were worth more than 5.00 my problem is they were in my opinion misrepresented......the seller is a e-bay vendor with 11,400 feedbacks and a feedback score of 99.4% so I felt that it was worth the risk buying them with no pics of the actual plants just a bloom pic....... and as I say they were listed as Large Multi-Growth plants and "These are nice sized multi growth plants. Most have bloomed before and will bloom again their next cycle. They are sequential bloomers so will have a few flowers at a time. " and I cannot see that these have bloomed before.....this again goes back to me being a newbie but normally there are remanents of the blooming spike left sticking up correct?.....anyway LOL the reason for the orginal post was to see if anyone else thought the listing was misleading or a misrepresentation of the plants.....I am waiting to hear from the seller.....perhaps based on what you guys have said I will just let them know it is my being new and assuming the wrongly that multi-growth means 3 or more growths

Todd

I am not questioning what I paid for these.....what I am questioning is the way they were advertised


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## nikv (Oct 6, 2008)

Todd,

I'd have a bigger issue with how they were packaged and shipped. Squeezing the pots out of shape so that they fit into a 3-inch box is unacceptable. Especially for $19.00 shipping and handling. 

Best of luck to you.

Best Regards,
Nik


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## gonewild (Oct 6, 2008)

Squeezing a 5 inch pot into a 3 inch box is really very poor service and plain stupid.
There is no excuse for that especially since the USPS has a 5.5 inch deep flat rate box.


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## SlipperFan (Oct 6, 2008)

It looks to me like the shipping and insurance costs were inflated to make you pay more for the plants. You may "think" you got a bargain at $5 ea, but in reality, you may have gotten a decent buy, but no bargain.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Oct 6, 2008)

I always check out the shipping before I bid on Ebay. I've passed on many a reasonable plant because the shipping was too high. Eric


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## Renegayde (Oct 6, 2008)

had these been 3-5 growth plants even with the shipping cost....which I knew about upfront....I would have been happy with them.....I just feel a 2 growth plant is not really what I would call a multi growth plant....again just my opinion....incidently I heard back from the vendor.....and all they would say is..."Todd these plants have bloomed for us in the past and that's pretty much what we all want. If you're not happy with the plants you can always send them back to us for a full refund. We will not cover your shipping costs back to us but we will refund the shipping cost you paid already.".....so now I have to decide whether to send them back or whether to just chalk it up to experience....leave neutral feedback and just move on....

Todd


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## goldenrose (Oct 6, 2008)

It's nice they offered a return.....Hmmm ...... Do you know you can reuse a flat rate box, at the flat rate fee? If it's the small box, I believe it's $6.95. If you decide to return, I'd recommend tracking or confirmation so they can't say they didn't get them.


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## Renegayde (Oct 6, 2008)

if I decide to return them I live just a few blocks from the PO so picking up a new box is not a big deal and yeah I will get delivery confirmation if I return them......like I said before my only disappointment is they are only two growth plants......right now I am leaning towards keeping them......although I guess I should check out Oak Hills website as both seedlings have OakHill tags so I wonder if they orginally came from Oak Hill......and I am still not convinced these are previously bloomed plants

Todd


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## goldenrose (Oct 7, 2008)

Oak Hill definitely has them, I've seen them there before. What I don't recall is size or # of growths.


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## Ernie (Oct 7, 2008)

gonewild said:


> Squeezing a 5 inch pot into a 3 inch box is really very poor service and plain stupid.
> There is no excuse for that especially since the USPS has a 5.5 inch deep flat rate box.



And also considering the flat rate is about $9. It's ~$13 for a large size FRB which these did not require. 

All in all, though, you got what you paid for plant size wise. 

-Ernie


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## Renegayde (Oct 7, 2008)

I am not doubting that the plants are worth what I paid for them.....my problem is the fact that I feel the vendor in this case portrayed these as bigger plants than what they were......again just my opinion....perhaps more seasoned growers would have thought when they saw the words multi growth and large used to describe these, would have been expection 2 growth medium sized plants......there was at the same time a listing for another Paph Grassau from another vendor and while it was a 2 growth plant and more expensive size wise it was more inline with what I was expecting for a large plant http://cgi.ebay.com/Paph-Delenatii-...ItemQQimsxZ20080926?IMSfp=TL080926151007r8350 ...I almost bought this one instead but took a chance on the other 2 that I bought......again I am not saying the plants I got were not worth $16 apiece just saying I felt they were misrepresented....if there would have been more bidding on the plants I did buy I would have paid $26 for them as my max bid on them was $15....would you still feel they were worth what I paid for them and portrayed correctly?

Todd


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## Candace (Oct 7, 2008)

Todd, I think it boils down to coulda, woulda, shoulda. In the future, no photo...no bidding. Learn from it. I don't think the plants were inherently misrepresented. But the shipping costs were completely inflated and shipping quality was substandard. Of course, if this was in the stated auction it's not like they pulled a fast one last second. Many ebay sellers are doing this to avoid paying the percentage of ebay fees. And if they are screwing ebay....well, you have to question ethics.

I say, give feedback that states your disatisfaction with the high price vs. shipping quality you received. But, buying plants unseen will always be a risk. 

As for the reason they didn't go for more money and get bidded up. Many people would have looked at the shipping charges and ran :>


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## NYEric (Oct 7, 2008)

I was initially going to say, "I try not to!", Secondly I was going to say, "It depends on what they are supposed to be.."; but you answered that. IMO the plants are a little puny for what they were described as, but you did get what you paid for. I always try to confirm from photos and only buy from limited amount of vendors who I have good experience with, John Chant, Springwater, OrchidsTN...


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## Renegayde (Oct 7, 2008)

I have decided I will keep them since I have been unable to find any Paph Grassau for sale anywhere else......as far as feedback since I am keeping them and they did offer to refund all my money if I sent them back.....I will not leave negative feedback....though I will leave neutrel feedback and just move on....I guess even when dealing with a vendor with very high feedback and one who says they are a pillar of the e-bay community you still have to watch out....lesson learned...as far as the shipping what you run into is ppl charging shipping and HANDLING so the excuse is of course the excess you pay is the handling charge....I have bought lots of plants off of e-bay and I pay very close attention to the shipping charges and determine whether the plant is worth the cost after winning with the shipping charges added in....there have been several auctions I have backed away from because the combined shipping charges are way to much....though sometimes what is advertised as the combined shipping is much less when the seller sends the actual invoice....case in point Orchids of Los Osos.....I recently won 5 of their auctions on e-bay and the advertised combined shipping was going to be I believe between $23-$25....when they actually invoiced me the shipping was only $10 so there are some vendors out there who charge acutal shipping charges and not inflated shipping charges.

Todd


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## goldenrose (Oct 7, 2008)

Good choice Todd! Candace pretty much wraps it up - leave feedback regarding outrageous shipping costs, they also have a question in regards of how the item was portrayed, so you could rate accordingly.


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## Renegayde (Oct 7, 2008)

You know I was just thinking about this....on e-bay we all insist on seeing a pic of the plant we are buying but when we buy from vendors we seldom if ever see a pic of the plant and usually trust the vendor to be honest and upfront about what they are selling us......sort of a double standard LOL

Todd


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## Candace (Oct 7, 2008)

Orchid vendors have usually proven themselves(or not). Any crack-pot with a computer can sell their crap on ebay...and the old feedback system made it easy for retaliation over negative complaints. I suspect the newer feedback is more accurate.


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## gonewild (Oct 7, 2008)

Renegayde said:


> You know I was just thinking about this....on e-bay we all insist on seeing a pic of the plant we are buying but when we buy from vendors we seldom if ever see a pic of the plant and usually trust the vendor to be honest and upfront about what they are selling us......sort of a double standard LOL
> 
> Todd



I agree with you but there is a big BUT to consider.....

One thing to remember is the cost of the photo. It takes time to photograph the plant. It takes time to remember which photo belongs to which plant when the listing is being created. It takes time to get the photo from the camera to the ebay listing. Ebay charges an additional fee to use more than one picture. In reality it probably consumes about $5 wort of time to show a photo in a listing. If a grower (or seller) can use one photo as a representative to sell a group of plants one at a time the cost is averaged out and is OK. 
BUT Sell a single plant for $5 on Ebay and you start out loosing money on just the time it took to make the photo.

How much do you suppose the plants cost the seller? At least $2 even if the grower started with a flask. If this grower bought the plants from Oak Hills he most likely paid a lot more?
Ebay and Paypal fees amount to about 12% of a sale assuming everything you list sells. (And if you sold a plant for $1.00 that is less than the ebay fees)
It takes time to deal with buyers, collect payment, create invoices and prepare the plant for shipment. Then it takes time to pack the plant. ( At least another couple dollars even to do a crappy job). Packing materials cost money also and can easily run $1 per plant.

Now add in the unhappy buyer that wanted something in a larger size and wants his money back. Or just the buyer who is a crook and habitually gets things for free under the threat of negative feedback. And I assure you there are more bad buyers than there are bad sellers.

Keeping all this in mind it should be easy to see why sellers try to make a few dollars on the shipping side. Often that is all the profit there is and often it is not even profit. Any plant (except tiny seedlings) that sells for less than $10 is a complete loss to the seller. 

It costs someone a lot of money to raise orchids to blooming size. Even the huge growers like Matsui get more than $5 for their plants wholesale. 

In my opinion buyers are expecting more than serious growers can sustain. As such one day soon there will be no more true commercial growers to provide us with plants. But that will be good because there will spring up a lot of small backyard growers to provide the (small) new hybrids we will be eager to pay $100 to get into our collections. When that day comes we can reflect on those two great plants Todd got for only $15 each. Those were the days!

Do you like to fish? How many times have you gone fishing and caught only a couple fingerling perch? I bet you still remember those days? I bet you went expecting to to catch a couple big uns? I bet you still enjoyed the day? In concept of acquisition how exactly do the two fingerling paphs differ from the two small seedling perch? I bet that fishing trip cost you more than $30?

Enjoy your two new plants and be thankful they have not flowered yet because now you get to be the first to see them.


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## gonewild (Oct 7, 2008)

Candace said:


> Orchid vendors have usually proven themselves(or not). Any crack-pot with a computer can sell their crap on ebay...and the old feedback system made it easy for retaliation over negative complaints. I suspect the newer feedback is more accurate.



Not really. 

All one seller has to do is buy a few cheap plants from his competitor and that gives him the opportunity to leave negative feedback. A few negs and the sellers rep is down the tubes. 

How is this more accurate? Now there is no control over rouge buyers.
No checks and balances anymore.


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## Renegayde (Oct 7, 2008)

Lance

perhaps I am misunderstanding you and perhaps ppl have misunderstood my complaint with this seller.....I am in no way complaining about what I paid for these plants.....my complaint is that I felt they were sort of misadvertised.....but as far as the price goes on these.....I am not the one that set the price at $5.......the seller started these at 99 cents so I guess thats all they felt like they were worth? or they assumed that starting them cheap would get lots of bids and they would end up getting more bids and the price would be higher....I realize it takes lots of $$ to raise orchids and it is hard to recoup the costs.....however don't you think the seller has a obligation to portray their product accurately and responsibly? If the seller chooses to sell plants cheap but advertises them as multi growth plants does that mean I should accept anything they send me just because they are selling them cheap and it costs lots of money to raise them? as far as the shipping charges go I knew upfront what the charges were going to be on these and I was willing to pay that......figuring that flat rate on these was going to be around 7.50-9.50<I had looked it up beforehand> so I knew they were charging me $12-$15 for handling in this case...a little steep but since I was getting a good deal on some large multi growth plants I was willing to pay it.......again my disappointment was in the fact that I felt the plants were misrepresented and perhaps that is my ignorance since I have only been growing a few years and throught multi growth large plants were going to be 3-5 growths.

reading your post you make it sound like we should take whatever a seller is willing to send us and just be quiet about it....but perhaps I am misunderstanding you....again they set the price so to speak on these not me so price is not the issue here the question I was asking of everyone at the start was basically what would you expect if some one said they were sending you large multi growth plants?......not.....do you think I got my moneys worth?

Todd


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## gonewild (Oct 7, 2008)

Todd,

I'm not suggesting that you should accept misrepresentation as OK.
It never is. I was not even disagreeing with your view of the transaction. 
Costs were mentioned trough out the thread and so was the requirement of having pictures or else not buying. I just wanted to point out some of the reasons buyers might consider giving sellers a little leeway when a problem or misunderstanding arises. 

You gave the seller plenty of opportunity to satisfy you. They did not give you what you paid for. They charged you for professional packing and gave you a poor job. In all reality they know most buyers will not bother to return the plants, so they win. They deserve a negative feedback for the position they put you in.

Now for the size of the plants? I think they are large multi growth seedlings. When I see a plant described as a seedling I assume it has not flowered before. Once a plant flowers it becomes a mature plant and I would not call it a seedling. If the description said they were seedlings then it was fairly accurate. If the description said they were previously flowered and they are not then they mis-represented the plants. If they had previously flowered you would see an old spike in the growth.

I agree with you, the seller is wrong, obviously, because the buyer in not happy.


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## Renegayde (Oct 7, 2008)

Lance sorry I misunderstood you.....and as far as pics go that is sort of what I was trying to point out in my comment E-bay sellers.....every one will say do not buy from them if there is no pic.....I understand that reasoning especially if they are a new seller....but when I purchase off of a vendors website I seldom see pics of the plants I am buying......I have to trust the vendor to send me what they are advertising.....the plants in question were listed as "Paph grassau 5" pots Large Multi growth Orchid Species" and "These are nice sized multi growth plants. Most have bloomed before and will bloom again their next cycle. They are sequential bloomers so will have a few flowers at a time. " these are direct quotes from the listing....LOL I have avoided putting a link to the auction as I do not want to ppl to avoid the seller if indeed this is all just my misunderstanding of the wording "multi-growth".......I did look them up on the Daves Garden<?> website after Candace posted the link in another thread for JK.....and on that website they had 9 posts 4 Positive 2 Neutral and 3 Negative.....would I have still bought these plants had I seen that....yes......would I have still bought these plants if they had been listed ast 2 growth plants with pics of the actual plants....yes.......do I feel like the plants I received are worth the $16 each they cost me.....yes......my orginal question like I said before was.....would you consider a 2 growth plant to be a multi growth plant......LOL I had avoided putting in the orginal post how much I paid for them because ppl automatically start saying....they were worth the money you paid for them....or you got what you paid for......thats not the issue or what I was questioning to begin with

Todd


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## NYEric (Oct 8, 2008)

I stopped reading about 6 posts up - too many words!


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