# Two New AOS Awards



## Phred (May 19, 2021)

Saturday I brought two older Cattleya walkeriana to Judging. I received an AM/AOS on each. They were named but not awarded. Since I’m sure many people have bought divisions of these over the years I kept the name the same so they would know their plants now carry the award. The price for these will go up now so if you’d like one you should get It before everyone finds out... lol.

*CATTLEYA walkeriana ‘TERRA AZUL’ AM/AOS *(81pts)


*CATTLEYA walkeriana ‘SVO WHOPPER’ AM/AOS *(82pts)


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## DrLeslieEe (May 19, 2021)

Congrats Fred on the awards!

FYI you cannot rename a ‘named’ division plant except for two reasons:

1. you own the original plant (and you sold divisions of that one mother plant) or

2. you get permission from the original owner (like Fred for SVO Whopper) to rename it.


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## Phred (May 19, 2021)

DrLeslieEe said:


> Congrats Fred on the awards!
> 
> FYI you cannot rename a ‘named’ division plant except for two reasons:
> 
> ...



It would not be renaming it. A species plant that is not awarded is not ‘named’. Breeders name unawarded species (and hybrids) so they can keep track of breeding or to identify it when selling divisions... or mericlone seedlings.


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## DrLeslieEe (May 19, 2021)

Phred said:


> It would not be renaming it. A species plant that is not awarded is not ‘named’. Breeders name unawarded species (and hybrids) so they can keep track of breeding or to identify it when selling divisions... or mericlone seedlings.


I guess it depends on which system you are referring to. I’m sure Terra Azul has been awarded in South America by their judging systems.

Under AOS system, we also refrain from changing names of a well known cultivar/clone for tracking purposes. Or else confusion ensues and multiple awards given to the same cultivar.


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## Phred (May 19, 2021)

DrLeslieEe said:


> I guess it depends on which system you are referring to. I’m sure Terra Azul has been awarded in South America by their judging systems.
> 
> Under AOS system, we also refrain from changing names of a well known cultivar/clone for tracking purposes. Or else confusion ensues and multiple awards given to the same cultivar.


Terra Azul is a Ching Hua clone. No award recorded anywhere in OrchidWiz. To your second point... that’s why I kept the names the same.


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## Katahdin (May 19, 2021)

They both look nice, I like the form and even color of 'terra azul'. The latter one looks to have loddigesii in it.


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## DrLeslieEe (May 19, 2021)

Katahdin said:


> They both look nice, I like the form and even color of 'terra azul'. The latter one looks to have loddigesii in it.


It’s definitely a walkeriana lol.


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## abax (May 19, 2021)

Gorgeous walkers! Congratulations on the awards...not so easy to accomplish.


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## tomp (May 20, 2021)

Congratulations on the double, that makes a nice drive home!


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## NYEric (May 20, 2021)

Congrats. Catts,


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## dodidoki (May 20, 2021)

Congrats, first is especially nice!


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## Guldal (May 20, 2021)

Congratulation on both awards....and the gorgeous flowers, that truly deserves the awards of merit! 

Actually, I think you (underneath) maybe agree to some degree, Phred and Leslie?

In Europe, at least, valid clonal names are only given, when a plant is awarded - and what some local judges sometimes forget is, that the clonal name has to be documented before the actual award is handed out (the German judges, though, are very conscientious in this respect). I.e. any other clonal names than those given this way can only be considered pet-names.

I will have to consult someone with more knowledge than me (i.e. mr. Christiansen in Fredensborg, when I visit him next time), but I think this Terra Azul example is a good one to learn something from:

1) I for my part would, if I bought a plant from a professional nursery, carrying a clonal name, pressuppose, that the plant in question had been awarded (even if the award wasn't specifically mentioned). But I might be in error on this?

2) As Phred's clone of 'Terra Azul' is the awarded one, mightn't it be rather confusing for further breeding to keep the same name as all the rest from the Ching Hua batch - unless they all are results of a divsion, that is?
Well, this is at least how it works in the Paph-world - what all the Cattleya merstemming does to this is rather confusing (here logic would have prevailed, if the breeders from the onset of merristemming had used the epithet 'MC' to designate, that this plant carrying the same clonal name, actually is produced due to MC and isn't a division of the originally awarded plant! Or what you maybe would be more interested in knowing: this plant without the 'MC' designation, actually, IS a division of the originally awarded plant).
If propagated by seed the rest of the plants from Ching Hua would, if I'm not totally off the rails, be considered siblings - and can't be considered the same clones as Phred's plant. This is why we sometimes sees the epithet for a new cross described by ex. ('Terra Azul' x sib) - meaning that the clone 'Terra Azul' has been crossed with another plant, that came out of the same seed pod (= sibling). The clones, that come out of this cross would, if awarded, have to have different names than that of the (one) parent(s).

[This is one of the few instances, where I think, Sam Tsui might error, as he seems to use the designation 'x sib' as meaning, that it is the same species beeing crossed with itself. It might be the case, though, that all his sib-crosses actually are sibling crosses (i.e. crosses made by clones originating from the same pod). But I've always wondered a bit, as all his crosses, that are not the result of selfing ('x self') are described as sibling-crosses.
In writing this, I just made one genealogical stab at one of his alleged sib-crosses: Paph. rothschildianum x sib ('New Horizon' FCC/AOS x 'Raptor' GM/JOGA): the parents of 'New Horizon' are: 'Flying Eagle' x 'Green Valley' - the parents of 'Raptor': 'MM' x 'Val'. 
Hence it clearly follows, that this can in no way can be a sibling cross! The correct way for Sam to designate the cross would have been: P. rothschildianum ('New Horizon' FCC/AOS x 'Raptor' GM/JOGA)]


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## orchidmouse (May 20, 2021)

Wonderful - Congrats!!


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## Duck Slipper (May 20, 2021)

Phred said:


> Terra Azul is a Ching Hua clone. No award recorded anywhere in OrchidWiz. To your second point... that’s why I kept the names the same.


Good job Phred!


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## Duck Slipper (May 20, 2021)

Guldal said:


> Congratulation on both awards....and the gorgeous flowers, that truly deserves the awards of merit!
> 
> Actually, I think you (underneath) maybe agree to some degree, Phred and Leslie?
> 
> ...


Guidal,
I am in no-way trying to argue your point, but my question is; If it is a Roth, any Roth, is it not a sib?


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## Duck Slipper (May 20, 2021)

Excellent Walkers and congratulations on the awards.


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## My Green Pets (May 20, 2021)

Both nice of course but my, my, Terra Azul is gorgeous!


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## Ozpaph (May 22, 2021)

Duck Slipper said:


> Guidal,
> If it is a Roth, any Roth, is it not a sib?



Actually, I dont believe so. To be a sib it has to be a brother/sister. Hence "sibling". For orchids(and humans and animals) that means from the same parents (and I think for the same pod for orchids)


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## cnycharles (May 23, 2021)

We are all told in aos club meetings that if you divide a plant, you give it a clonal name. It doesn’t have to be awarded to get a clonal name. But, if you receive an aos award, you must name the clone. I guess you could say it’s just a ‘pet name’ if it hasn’t been awarded, but thats more snobbery than anything. Plant naming doesn’t depend on a plant having had an award or not. But it’s just different practices in different places. But if you divide a plant and give parts away, it’s a great practice to identify the clone so if someone gets an award, everyone else can apply that award distinction to their same clone. Also if people want to collect different plants of a species or hybrid, or they want multiple pieces of the same clone, then they would desire to have the clonal name
Yes siblings would be from the same pod. I guess you could call all other species of the same name ‘cousins’


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