# sanderianum cross



## Roy (Aug 10, 2007)

I'm happy I don't own this plant and hope there are better ones about. This is P bellatulum x sanderianum at a recent show here.


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## Candace (Aug 10, 2007)

Hmmm. Not the beauty of the ball is it?


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## Heather (Aug 10, 2007)

Sometimes I wonder why people cross certain things...


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## Elena (Aug 10, 2007)

Gosh, that's.....ummm....unfortunate oke: I hope the person didn't pay too much for that plant.


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## Frederick (Aug 10, 2007)

*Put it*

out of its misery.
Frederick


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## DukeBoxer (Aug 10, 2007)

Ditto Heather


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## ohio-guy (Aug 10, 2007)

its probably hard to bloom too


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## DukeBoxer (Aug 10, 2007)

Hey, thats a phragmapaphium isn't it...oke:


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## rdhed (Aug 10, 2007)

To bad. It looks like it was put together by a committee. It maybe started as a good idea and got a few good things (i.e. color combo and sepal twists), but all in all it should have stayed home like a dirty little secret.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Aug 10, 2007)

I've seen uglier. The dirty little secret of bellatulum is that, while its best crosses are beautiful, many of its crosses are absolutely hideous....if you can get them to bloom. One of the ugliest paphs I've ever seen was a cross of bellatulum x vietnamense. Small, cupped petals, and a cubic, yes, cubic, pouch. Yech! Take care, Eric


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## rdlsreno (Aug 11, 2007)

Needs improvement!

Ramon


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## SlipperFan (Aug 11, 2007)

Actually, it has a cute staminode.


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## goldenrose (Aug 11, 2007)

We'd always like to give it the benefit of the doubt & say it will be better it's next bloom BUT ....
I'm with Eric! I don't think it's a dirty little secret, as I too, have seen too many bellatulum X's that I thought were dogs.


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## NYEric (Aug 11, 2007)

I think the color is a little green. If the striping on the petal had been light tan and dark then it would be nice, and bloom twice a soon as sanderianum!


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## Roy (Aug 11, 2007)

Most agree that this Paph is not worth having and as mentioned Brachy x Multis have far too many problems to mention. Then WHY do we all still want one of them when we see a good pic??? I for one think its time to admire the good ones and put the wanting away. It may take handcuffs and a blindfold though.


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## goldenrose (Aug 11, 2007)

Hey Roy - do you know anyone that may have a deal on multi x brachy's?!
Well said, couldn't agree more!


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## Roy (Aug 11, 2007)

There are one or two places trying to sell these crosses here but not with much luck. Most knowledgable Paph growers here say well away from them.
Mind you, the price being asked is from A$20 for a plant in a 2 or 3 inch pot. Leaf span approx' 4 inches if your lucky.


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## kentuckiense (Aug 11, 2007)

I'd grow it.


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## goldenrose (Aug 11, 2007)

After all this, Nick on SOF said he'd take the rejects! (We have somewhere to send them!)
Personally I just don't get it. when the odds are against you (and doesn't everyone pretty much have limited space), why would you want to spend good money first & then invest the time, upkeep, electric, heating, etc. in a plant that's not going to bloom or once in a 10 year time span?


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## Candace (Aug 11, 2007)

> After all this, Nick on SOF said he'd take the rejects! (We have somewhere to send them!)
> Personally I just don't get it. when the odds are against you (and doesn't everyone pretty much have limited space), why would you want to spend good money first & then invest the time, upkeep, electric, heating, etc. in a plant that's not going to bloom or once in a 10 year time span?



I think most people simply don't know this and most would probably not buy them for all the reasons you mentioned above. For me, I do grow some crosses like this because of the challenge to get them to bloom. But, if they were to bloom out unattractively(in my eyes) I wouldn't keep it.


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## gonewild (Aug 11, 2007)

goldenrose said:


> After all this, Nick on SOF said he'd take the rejects! (We have somewhere to send them!)
> Personally I just don't get it. when the odds are against you (and doesn't everyone pretty much have limited space), why would you want to spend good money first & then invest the time, upkeep, electric, heating, etc. in a plant that's not going to bloom or once in a 10 year time span?



Beauty is relevant. If that were the flower on a bulbo everyone would be excited and it would even stink. But on a Paph it is ugly? Not really it is just different.

Don't you plan on being around in 10 years? I hope you don't feel the same way about your human children. :rollhappy:

Just imagine how exciting it is to have an "old friend" plant that has been around for a decade finally decide to show what it has.


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## goldenrose (Aug 11, 2007)

gonewild said:


> Don't you plan on being around in 10 years? I hope you don't feel the same way about your human children. :rollhappy:


 What human kids? oke:That's why I have dogs!


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## smartie2000 (Aug 11, 2007)

well the colours are nice. If the dorsal was flat and the pouch was in better shape then it would be fine. There have been uglier plants.


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## gonewild (Aug 11, 2007)

goldenrose said:


> What human kids? oke:That's why I have dogs!




Poor puppies! oke: Just kidding!


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## goldenrose (Aug 11, 2007)

You should be so lucky to be one of my dogs!


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## gonewild (Aug 11, 2007)

goldenrose said:


> You should be so lucky to be one of my dogs!


Maybe but I'm sure glad I'm not one or your brachy hybrids!!


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## Candace (Aug 12, 2007)

Oops, I was thinking this cross sounded familiar. And very much like somthing I'd buy thinking it was intriguing. So, I hunted around in the g.h. this morning. Its name is Wossner Bellsand, and yes, I've got it. I've also got a conco-bellatulum x sanderianum. Hope I have a better result than this one...:sob:


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## NYEric (Aug 13, 2007)

Candace said:


> For me, I do grow some crosses like this because of the challenge to get them to bloom. But, if they were to bloom out unattractively(in my eyes) I wouldn't keep it.


If you want to get rid of it I'll take it. I'm not so much into the challenge as to have house plants. Of course if you've seen my house you may think I've gone a little crazy!:crazy:


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## Candace (Aug 13, 2007)

O.K. it's getting near B.S. At least I think it is, who knows with these crosses! And if it is indeed a fugly one you can adopt it;>


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## NYEric (Aug 13, 2007)

Yay! PS, for smilies mouth is shift&zero.


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## Hien (Aug 13, 2007)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> I've seen uglier. The dirty little secret of bellatulum is that, while its best crosses are beautiful, many of its crosses are absolutely hideous....if you can get them to bloom. One of the ugliest paphs I've ever seen was a cross of bellatulum x vietnamense. Small, cupped petals, and a cubic, yes, cubic, pouch. Yech! Take care, Eric



A really perfect cube pouch is interesting. The sharper the line the better. I would give that plant a place in the collection. I imagine it could be mesmerizing.
(If everything else about the flower is in balance & the color pattern is pleasing)
Last week one of my phal decides to have a really strange flower, square shape w/ zigzag petal tips. while all the other flowers on the same spike are round. very interesting.
Does anyone know the answer for this question:
- if I self this flower, does the seedlings retain this flower shape? or the result plants still bloom out normal like the other flower of the same spike?


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## toddybear (Aug 13, 2007)

Some crosses just shouldn't be done. My dog has passed better specimens! (ouch, that's harsh!)


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## goldenrose (Aug 13, 2007)

Ouch - that is harsh!ity:
I don't particularly care for it but I've seen ALOT WORSE!


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## Leo Schordje (Aug 13, 2007)

This (bellatulum x sanderianum) has single handedly set Paph breeding back 150 years. 
Why do people keep making and re-making this type of cross, because the occasional (rare) 'good one' can be very good. Like playing a 10 year lottery. One other reason is that a good one of this type of cross could be back crossed with another long petaled sanderianum hybrid to get long petaled multiflorals with a lot of red markings over a white or yellow background. 
I have my Rolfei and my Delrosi, they bloom infrequent, and always a little freaky, but I enjoy them.


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## goldenrose (Aug 13, 2007)

and that's the bottomline ...... you know their faults/weakness & you ENJOY them! 
I got chomped on earlier in this post by Lance & that's OK, we all have our opinion. When one goes knowingly into these hybrids then it's their choice. I was feeling a bit sorry for Nick because he is retired, he shows alot of restraint in his purchases & it just seems his money could be better spent in a different cross. I would love nothing more than him to end up with one, bloom it successfully & on a regular basis & be able to rub my nose in it!


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## gonewild (Aug 13, 2007)

Chomped? 
I just like to point out that we should always look deeper than the surface for beauty.

Even thought the plant in the photo that started this discussion is not very attractive it does still have some valuable assets.

1. It bloomed.
2. It bloomed on a rather small (young) plant for the type of hybrid.
3. It has long petals on a compact plant.
4. The flower is not all distorted.

It may be more desirable than we think and very well could prove to be an important ancestor to a new style of hybrid paph.
Back cross it to a betulatum or sanderianum and it will likely start to take a form that is more appealing yet very different from either parent group.
Gotta start somewhere.


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## goldenrose (Aug 13, 2007)

You're absolutely right on all counts. In my first post I indicated it should get better on it's next bloom. I might be whistling a different tune then. I think it's a great idea to cross it back to sand or a sand X. What would you want/expect to see by crossing it back to bellatulum?


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## kentuckiense (Aug 13, 2007)

gonewild said:


> Chomped?
> I just like to point out that we should always look deeper than the surface for beauty.
> 
> Even thought the plant in the photo that started this discussion is not very attractive it does still have some valuable assets.
> ...



I agree. I don't understand all the hate. I'm glad the cross was made simply so that we can see what results. Is it "pretty?" Probably not. But it IS interesting to see how the two parents combined. I'd take this over a bulldog any day of the week.


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## gonewild (Aug 13, 2007)

goldenrose said:


> What would you want/expect to see by crossing it back to bellatulum?



I answered this once but the post never showed up so I'll take a chance of repeating myself...

Maybe...
Large white based flowers with spots and long petals on a compact plant with moderate length stems that would fit under fluorescent lights?


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## Roy (Aug 14, 2007)

I placed the original photo to show growers something of a cross that is unusual. I have enjoyed reading the posts. I still say I'm happy I don't own the plant. I tend to agree with Leo on most points but also a little with Lance that it might breed something better down the track BUT I still ask Why Bother?? Wouldn't it be most cost effective and more efficient to line breed to improve what we have now. Bellatulums are being ling bred which is making them easier to grow and flower and the same with the Multi florals. I think for time, space and economics plus the added fact that you eliminate the flowering & growing problems and the questionable flower shape at the end. Too many nurseries are producing seedlings like the pictured cross and Paph lovers are paying good money for little if any results. I think its time for breeders to get back to reality and start looking at what people can grow and not the breeder wants them to grow.
Roy.


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## NYEric (Aug 14, 2007)

I'll still take it.


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## gonewild (Aug 14, 2007)

Roy said:


> I placed the original photo to show growers something of a cross that is unusual. I have enjoyed reading the posts. I still say I'm happy I don't own the plant.



Personally I don't much like that plant either but it is interesting to hear peoples ideas and opinions about these controversial lines of breeding



> I tend to agree with Leo on most points but also a little with Lance that it might breed something better down the track BUT I still ask Why Bother?? Wouldn't it be most cost effective and more efficient to line breed to improve what we have now.



Why not do both? Commercial breeders and growers need as much variety as possible. Cost effective for a breeder is creating something that your customers want and your competitors don't have.



> Bellatulums are being ling bred which is making them easier to grow and flower and the same with the Multi florals. I think for time, space and economics plus the added fact that you eliminate the flowering & growing problems and the questionable flower shape at the end.



Crossing the betatulum with a sanderianum is an exploration of a new frontier and can't really be compared with line breeding in either species.



> Too many nurseries are producing seedlings like the pictured cross and Paph lovers are paying good money for little if any results.



But nobody forces Paph lovers to buy a screwball hybrid. If a Paph grower wants a sure thing they have thousands of other choices. If that flower had come out with the same exact form but was pure white with big dark polka dots this conversation would be praising the ingenuity of the breeder.



> I think its time for breeders to get back to reality and start looking at what people can grow and not the breeder wants them to grow.
> Roy.



I think breeders are looking at what people want to grow as well as what they can grow. Some growers thrive on the challange of growing and not necissarily on the quality of the flower. Breeders will always strive to create something new and different. There are not many options left for "different" in the orchid hobby so in the case of this hybrid breeders are starting at the bottom. In a few decades the hybrids will be perfected but in the meantime there will be lots of ugly ducklings.


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## Roy (Aug 14, 2007)

Lance, experimentation is a good thing and growers, new and old, I agree are looking for something new. The problem is, as expresses in this and other forums, growers see only the ones that actually grow and flower so they buy the seedlings. They may not be aware of the difficulties that come with the cross, like P. Rolfei, in flowering. New fruit, vegetables, roses etc are tried and proven by the hybridist BEFORE they are released to the public, not so with orchids. Taiwan Paph nurseries seem to have it down to a fine art in showing great pics of the experimental crosses ( the good ones or only ones to flower ), remaking the crosses and selling off to the unsuspecting. They seem to be 4 to 6 years ahead in flowering crosses that are only just making our market. What better advertising to sell plants.


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## Hien (Aug 14, 2007)

gonewild said:


> But nobody forces Paph lovers to buy a screwball hybrid. If a Paph grower wants a sure thing they have thousands of other choices. If that flower had come out with the same exact form but was pure white with big dark polka dots this conversation would be praising the ingenuity of the breeder.
> 
> .



This is only one example plant, maybe there is a sibling of this plant with polka dots on white background.
By the ways , I still have the unanswered question:
 If you selfing an abnormal flower (I have a strange square phal flower on a normal flower inflorescence), will the result plants flower square blooms or will they all carry normal flower?


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## gonewild (Aug 14, 2007)

Roy said:


> Lance, experimentation is a good thing and growers, new and old, I agree are looking for something new. The problem is, as expresses in this and other forums, growers see only the ones that actually grow and flower so they buy the seedlings. They may not be aware of the difficulties that come with the cross, like P. Rolfei, in flowering. New fruit, vegetables, roses etc are tried and proven by the hybridist BEFORE they are released to the public, not so with orchids. Taiwan Paph nurseries seem to have it down to a fine art in showing great pics of the experimental crosses ( the good ones or only ones to flower ), remaking the crosses and selling off to the unsuspecting. They seem to be 4 to 6 years ahead in flowering crosses that are only just making our market. What better advertising to sell plants.



I bet there is one thing orchid growers do not want. They do not want the breeders growing out a hybrid and not selling any of the seedlings until the cross is pr oven. Paph and all orchid growers all want to be one of the first to flower a new hybrid. This separates orchid growing from new fruit, vegetables, roses etc where a single plant is selected and then "cloned" for the public.

When you define the problem with the Taiwanese Paph breeders, I agree with you completely. I guess I was referring to honorable breeders. The practice you describe is not the type of breeding and growing I was thinking of. What you describe is pure deception and fraud, they are only using Paph breeding as a tool to steal. Not every culture has the same business standards as a driving force.


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## gonewild (Aug 14, 2007)

Hien said:


> By the ways , I still have the unanswered question:
> If you selfing an abnormal flower (I have a strange square phal flower on a normal flower inflorescence), will the result plants flower square blooms or will they all carry normal flower?



If it is just one square flower on a spike of normal flowers it is probably a deformed flower. The genetics would likely match the round flowers. But unless you want to breed plants that produce deformed flowers you should not use the plant for breeding.


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## Hien (Aug 14, 2007)

Thanks for the answer, Lance,

If I have time I would post the picture later & you see what I mean.


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## Roy (Aug 15, 2007)

OK Lance now we are on the same page. Yes, we all want to flower that new, exceptional hybrid. I think that probably through forums like this & others plus Orchid discussion in general, the problems that could occur with the 'experimental' hybrid can be explained carefully so that we all are made aware of the 'potential' faults or 'benefits' a crossing may hold.
In fact, thats not a bad idea for a forum Discussion Board.?????


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