# Yellow Neofinetia/Ascofinetia Information



## Jason Fischer (Oct 4, 2006)

*Yellow Neofinetia Follow-up*

Since some of you have questioned my dear friend Glenn Lehr about yellow neofinetia, I thought that I had better follow up with a better explanation.

I base my opinions after personal research done in Japan by talking with other neofinetia growers. I have been told by 3 very reputable growers that ascocentrum influence in the background is what makes them appear yellow. I also know that there has never been a yellow flower neofinetia that has made it to the ranking chart, which is only because that group of judges does not accept it as a true species.

However, Dr. Lehr has other sources than I do for purchasing neofinetia, and one of his sources claims that he collected a yellow flower type himself from the wild. I would not rule it out as a possibility, but have also brought this issue up with other growers of the fuukiran society who did not know of this finding. I have not heard news otherwise about this particular finding. 

I do know that there is one species with very flat leaves and pale yellow flowers that was discovered in China. I also believe this is the same one that was described as neof. richardsoniana (never seen a pic of this) by taxonomist Eric Christianson, making it the second species in this genus.

Now, about Japan and the yellow neofinetia:

1. They allow them all to be labled as neofinetia falcata, and even judge them so (but not in the fuukiran society, as far as I know).

2. They are extremely valueable, with specimen plants that have been sold at $10,000 and more, and are always in very high demand and very expensive to import. Mine are usually gone quite quickly. Dr. Lehr has invested more than I have in this field, which is why you see more available on his site.

I think people in Japan and the US will be displaying and juding these as yellow neofinetia falcata, and that much more research needs to go into finding out the history of each type of yellow neofinetia. This will keep me busy! Hope this helps!


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## Marco (Oct 4, 2006)

Great info. Thanks Jason


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Oct 5, 2006)

I personally am not convinced about ascocentrum being in the background of yellow neos. I'd like to see some breeding done to see just how many backcrosses it would take to produce a plant identical to Neofinetia with yellow flowers. Hopefully they don't get too common, maybe I can retire on my Ogonmaru with another 40 years of growth. 

I'm still on the fence about richardsiana, especially with how variable falcata is. I guess I'd have to see one in person to make a final decision. I respect Christenson a lot though, which is the only reason I even consider it could be different.
http://www.orchidspecies.com/neorichardiana.htm
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/6917/images/neofinetia_richards.JPG

Jon
________
DODGE D SERIES SPECIFICATIONS


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## PHRAG (Oct 5, 2006)

Just so you know, it wasn't me that contacted Dr. Lehr. Personally, I don't care if yellow neo's are crossed or collected. I still don't have one.  

I get distracted buying the bean leaf and pine needle leaf variations, and I am behind on colored flower forms.


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## Heather (Oct 5, 2006)

PHRAG said:


> ... and I am behind on colored flower forms.




hehe...who's telling you that exactly? oke:

I am amused by these little things that dictate our collecting habits.


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## Jason Fischer (Oct 5, 2006)

One thing I know for sure is:

'Ogonmaru' and 'Kibana Fuuran' (simply translated as 'Yellow Fuuran') are both descendants of ascocentrum. I can tell simply by the leaves. Ascocentrum hybrids tend to get purple spots on or under the leaves, as well as make the leaves grow much larger than regular neofinetia, and I have seen many Ogonmaru and Kibana that do this. 

Also, in the fuuran flower picture book (since I can read a good amount of Japanese), it is stated right under the pictures that most of the yellow flowers in that book are produced with ascocentrum. In fact, I'll look over a few and translate them into English and post what pages they are on for those of you who own this book:

http://www.orchidweb.com/cat_dtl.asp?P_Recno=3742&f_pagenumber=1&tpn=2

I would have to think only 1 or 2 back crosses will get you that look. From there, the most 'neofinetia-looking' flowers can be sib-crossed to continue those traits. I've already made some of these crosses so we'll see what happens. I think they will grow faster than regular neofinetia since they will have that 'hybrid vigor'.

Just like with fuukiran, very nice clones of yellow, dare I say ascofinetia, are divided and hold great value. It just breaks down to a matter of what you 'know', or what you 'choose to believe'. This is not the only case of improper taxonomy... our own Dr. Robert Quene described the new phrag species braziliense which is still in major debate as to whether it really is a new species as there is a hybrid that looks _exactly_ like it, and I think even Robert agrees on this! Robert, your opinion?


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## Jason Fischer (Oct 5, 2006)

OK I decided to move this thread to this section as opposed to the contest winner area  

I have BREAKING news! So, last night, in my frustration, I decided to re-open this can of worms I had set aside so long ago at what I knew, and started to e-mail growers in Japan, even people I did not know, about this situtation.

I have two replies today, and to me, they are _exactly_ the replies I expected to get. Here we go, translated by yours truly:

Reply 1:

There is no such thing as a yellow flowered neofinetia that does not have the blood of ascocentrum in the background, and no such thing as a yellow neofinetia that has been discoverd in the wild. BUT, there are two registered fuukiran in which we can say have 'some' yellow. 'Oukan', in which only the flower buds are yellow, but once they open the flowers are white. 'Zuiun', which opens up with very pale yellow flowers that fade to white. Both of these fuukiran have been self pollinated with offspring that carry the same traits.

Reply 2:

Although there is a yellow flower of mountain picking, it is the flower of cream (light yellow) rather than yellow. The 'Yellow' fuuran you see on the market now has been skillfully hybridized to look like and be sold as yellow neofinetia falcata, even though it is not a true species. Even the flower fragrance is not the same as regular fuuran (this is true, they smell different). There has been a problem with 'bad businessmen' who will introduce dark yellow ascofinetia into the wild, then re-collect them and re-sell them at a very high price. I think to myself, 'Is this any good', because I know I have something that is not of a true species. But then again, they have been so skillfully bred to look the same that one can only be drawn to and appreaciate this yellow flower form. Since I believe there is no such thing as a true 'mountain collected' yellow fuuran, I would be careful as to how much money I spend on a variety claimed to be picked from the mountain.

Back to Jason now,

So there we have it. Just as I thought. I will keep you updated if I get more responses, but I am convinced that I don't need anymore. Even my own provider, who is a highly involved member of the fuukiran society (he arranged the entire meeting for 2005) says there's no such thing. So it boils down to this. The ONLY person who says there is a mountain collected yellow neofinetia is the person selling them. I don't even have the energy to contact this person after reading comment #2. Want more proof? I looked over that neofinetia flower book today, EVERY single yellow flower said it had ascocentrum background EXCEPT for 2 varieties, both of which are said to be collected in the wild, by the same person, who is also the person selling them. 

You can judge for yourself now, I've done enough research to conclude my own beliefs.


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## Jason Fischer (Oct 5, 2006)

*Pricing*

Even though comment #2 said to be careful on pricing, I can tell you from what I have to pay from any vendor I see in Japan that you will not be seeing blooming size plants under $100 anytime soon. Most likely, $100 to $1000 will still be the average. When he says large sums of money, that means $5000 to $100,000 because that is really what many rare varieties go for in Japan.


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## Heather (Oct 5, 2006)

I hope no one minds, I moved the most recent related posts over to this new thread. Seemed to make sense.


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## Jason Fischer (Oct 6, 2006)

By the way, when I said this:

"he ONLY person who says there is a mountain collected yellow neofinetia is the person selling them."

I did not mean Dr. Glenn Lehr, I meant the guy in Japan. Glenn is innocent


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## Drorchid (Oct 6, 2006)

Jason Fischer said:


> our own Dr. Robert Quene described the new phrag species braziliense which is still in major debate as to whether it really is a new species as there is a hybrid that looks _exactly_ like it, and I think even Robert agrees on this! Robert, your opinion?



I will post a new thread regarding Phrag. brasiliense

Robert


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## Heather (May 28, 2007)

Ok, so Ogonmaru is NOT a true species? Am I understanding correctly? 
I'm new here...


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## TADD (May 28, 2007)

O Boy, H you are in real trouble...


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