# giant P. sanderianum on ebay



## lienluu (Jan 24, 2008)

Has anyone seen this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Paphiopedilum-s...ryZ42218QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Odd that it would be that size in 14 years...and that there aren't any spent spikes on the plant (though they could have done a really good job of removing them)...the leaves don't look totally right either.


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## Rick (Jan 24, 2008)

I've never seen one with growths as densly packed as that one, but I got a seedling in 2001 and just this last year it started 4 new growths at the same time. So with that kind of momentum it might look like that in 7 more years?!?

Most of the sanderianums Ive seen have bigger floppier leaves, but there are documented wide and narrow leafed (or long and short) leaved varieties.

I don't know what to think??

I don't have $4000 anyway.


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## kentuckiense (Jan 24, 2008)

I don't think I'd gamble $4k on it.


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## Candace (Jan 24, 2008)

I'm with Rick, that the sanderianums I've seen had floppier, larger leaves. What would put me off is for that kind of $ there should be an actual picture of the flower posted, not a "representative" photo. If I lived in Miami, though, I'd be happy to gamble with someone else's money!!:evil:


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## Ron-NY (Jan 24, 2008)

It could be a sanderianum but what I am wondering is why he didn't show a pic of his plant in bloom (the flower pic, obviously is not the same plant he is selling). I am quite sure if I had a sanderianum blooming on multi spikes, I would have a pic of it.


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## SlipperFan (Jan 24, 2008)

I agree. If I had a plant like that, you can be sure I'd have photos of the flowers. 

This auction smells really bad.


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## paphioland (Jan 24, 2008)

could be sanderianum. In the Florida weather multiflorals grow like crazy. Who knows though. I agree for that price I would want to see the flower. Who wants 5 spikes of a crappy sanderianum? I don't even like sanderianums to begin with lol. It it were cheaper it might make a nice decoration in the greenhouse.


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## kentuckiense (Jan 24, 2008)

paphioland said:


> Who wants 5 spikes of a crappy sanderianum?



Probably everyone else on this forum, I'd imagine.


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## paphioland (Jan 24, 2008)

kentuckiense said:


> Probably everyone else on this forum, I'd imagine.



not for 4000


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## kentuckiense (Jan 24, 2008)

paphioland said:


> not for 4000



Yeah, that wasn't your question though.


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## Heather (Jan 24, 2008)

Not me - I prefer a good Michael Koopowitz, actually.


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## paphioland (Jan 24, 2008)

kentuckiense said:


> Yeah, that wasn't your question though.



it is implied multiple times in the statement.

I still have no real desire to have a crappy sanderianum. They can be hideous. Who knows if this one is crappy or not but for 4k you could buy an outstanding multifloral hybrid or a very good roth. If it were cheaper it might make a nice hanging plant in the greenhouse. Then again if this bloom is even good this price is not unreasonable.


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## paphioland (Jan 24, 2008)

Heather said:


> Not me - I prefer a good Michael Koopowitz, actually.



I agree. I actually am not a huge fan of sand or its hybrids except paul parks maybe. The sand has such a scrawny dorsal and passes it on


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## Heather (Jan 24, 2008)

Have to agree with you, the dorsal bugs me and I don't like the shape of the pouch, generally.


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## NYEric (Jan 25, 2008)

If it is sanderianum is it worth the price? The ad says if you have questions contact him I'm sure you can ask for a picture of the blooms. Personally, long petal multiflorals really aren't my thing. Now if it was a nice besseae hybrid...


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## SlipperKing (Jan 26, 2008)

It sold for a 1000K, saw it today. That was the best offer


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## NYEric (Jan 26, 2008)

SlipperKing said:


> It sold for a 1000K, saw it today. That was the best offer


R U sure? A million is a lot for one plant. oke:


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## JeanLux (Jan 27, 2008)

sakuraba101 won this item with a Best Offer of US $1,000.00. 

text from eBay
Jean


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## SlipperKing (Jan 27, 2008)

I meant bucks, 1000.00


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## rdlsreno (Jan 27, 2008)

That is no suprise. There was a Paph. stonii album division that was sold for $5,000 at the show. Cash!!!!!!:crazy:

Ramon


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## paphioland (Jan 27, 2008)

rdlsreno said:


> That is no suprise. There was a Paph. stonii album division that was sold for $5,000 at the show. Cash!!!!!!:crazy:
> 
> Ramon



That is actually reasonable for that plant even though it sounds crazy. It is prob worth more.


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## Heather (Jan 27, 2008)

Looks as though someone got it for a steal...(if it's really what the vendor says it is...)


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## Candace (Jan 27, 2008)

> It sold for a 1000K, saw it today. That was the best offer.


Quite the gamble for a plant with no flower photo posted. I hope the bidder hasn't been snookered.


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## ohio-guy (Jan 27, 2008)

what would a roth album go for? (I know there is none yet known)


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## Roy (Jan 28, 2008)

ohio-guy said:


> what would a roth album go for?



The seller should go to jail for fraud!!!


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## paphioland (Jan 28, 2008)

ohio-guy said:


> what would a roth album go for?



If there was one discovered now. I would say between 15,000 -25,000. Maybe more. It would all depend on what someone were willing to pay for it.


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## NYEric (Jan 28, 2008)

Yeah, an adult [i.e. flowered for proof] roth. album I could see going for $10,000.00+.


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## paphioland (Jan 28, 2008)

NYEric said:


> Yeah, an adult [i.e. flowered for proof] roth. album I could see going for $10,000.00+.



I actually think it would be closer to 25k or more for the first division or whole plant.


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## NYEric (Jan 28, 2008)

Really, who would pay that much? I think that's beyond what most U.S. hybridizers would pay and that would hold the cost down.


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## paphioland (Jan 28, 2008)

NYEric said:


> Really, who would pay that much? I think that's beyond what most U.S. hybridizers would pay and that would hold the cost down.



It is the private collector who would suck that baby up. 

Believe me that plant would sell and for definitely over 10k


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## NYEric (Jan 28, 2008)

Shhhhh.. don't spill the beans or else they'll be coming out of the woodwork. [Why invest in a roth IRA when you can invest in my roth album!?]


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## paphioland (Jan 28, 2008)

The problem is if you get a division what do you do with it. You know if the person was a commercial grower they are going to self it to death. So then you are stuck knowing that your plant is rare for about 8-10yrs. So then you are almost forced to self it yourself. If you have the whole plant you could never divide it or cross it.


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## NYEric (Jan 28, 2008)

With rare plants and animals they only hold their value if they're not used. Which is kind of selfish and defeats the purpose of commercialization. If you breed with it you make available new crosses. If you selve it the value goes down. If you do nothing with it you win a few awards or sell a division once in a while. I remember when 'leucustic' leopard geckos first came out they were $1500/ea. 4 years later they were $50.


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## paphioland (Jan 28, 2008)

NYEric said:


> With rare plants and animals they only hold their value if they're not used. Which is kind of selfish and defeats the purpose of commercialization. If you breed with it you make available new crosses. If you selve it the value goes down. If you do nothing with it you win a few awards or sell a division once in a while. I remember when 'leucustic' leopard geckos first came out they were $1500/ea. 4 years later they were $50.



Or you and friends could admire it. 

You could also self it and cross it to a colorform and do your own breeding while keeping all the seedlings. You could then release them whenever you felt like you were bored with the album roth and didn't mind seeing them everywhere.


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## NYEric (Jan 28, 2008)

Yeah but time is a factor. If someone sold you a roth album x seedling today would you believe it? If so, I have a plant for you..:evil:


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## paphioland (Jan 28, 2008)

NYEric said:


> Yeah but time is a factor. If someone sold you a roth album x seedling today would you believe it? If so, I have a plant for you..:evil:



??? No the whole plant. If you had the whole plant time is no factor. You control what happens to the plant. You could never release anything from it if you wanted to. You could bloom out all your roth album seedlings yourself or you could sell them


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## cwt (Jan 28, 2008)

This got enormous potential. a New game? The saga of the elusive white roth. And its offspring.Just remember : never a person by name never a country by name.Or is it to dangerous, or was it never possible? If this sounds boring, dont reply. If not,I will guide you in a possible direction....remember, always fictional


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## NYEric (Jan 28, 2008)

paphioland said:


> ??? No the whole plant. If you had the whole plant time is no factor. You control what happens to the plant. You could never release anything from it if you wanted to. You could bloom out all your roth album seedlings yourself or you could sell them


As I said, once you sell the selvings [and remember it takes TIME to grow seedllings and prove they are what you say they are] the value goes down. It also takes time to grow and sell divisions. If you keep the plant and it dies, Bumkiss!


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## ohio-guy (Jan 28, 2008)

If you develop a game of the white roth ( or maybe the golden roth, make it a flavum, its fiction anyway) you can back track to when roth was first discovered, and make the rare plant one than fell into the hands of a secretive collector, and then what he might or might not have done with it....selfings, divisions, outcrosses and back crosses, could unfold over the years, to the point where if something is out there today, it could be almost anywhere and could be any permutation of the origional.
Just a game, all fiction anyway, right?


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## cwt (Jan 28, 2008)

Aha. lets try and figure out. This is going to turn into a rather philosophical discussion. Lets say it turned up somewhere, maybe 15 years ago, with offspring,in a clollection, and it was sold for a fortune to somebody on the other side of the earth,and they started to flower now. Not unlike some PK problems that was encountered. What would happen. all fictional


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## paphioland (Jan 28, 2008)

NYEric said:


> As I said, once you sell the selvings [and remember it takes TIME to grow seedllings and prove they are what you say they are] the value goes down. It also takes time to grow and sell divisions. If you keep the plant and it dies, Bumkiss!



Wouldn't go down for years. Again you wouldn't have to sell the selfings. As the plant gets bigger you just divide it. So you have extra copies lol.


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## NYEric (Jan 28, 2008)

What would be the point of keeping the plants?


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## paphioland (Jan 28, 2008)

back up copies. Personal pleasure and enjoyment????? Rare plants and outstanding clones dissapear all the time into private collections not to be seen again. LOL
I personally would breed with it an release the hybrids. I would wait to release selfings or the mother plant until I felt ready to do so.


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## NYEric (Jan 28, 2008)

NYEric said:


> With rare plants and animals they only hold their value if they're not used. Which is kind of selfish and defeats the purpose of commercialization.


I amend this statement. Of course they have high value in a private collection but first of all I can't believe the public wouldn't know about a roth album. 2nd, I find it hard to believe someone would cross or breed with it.


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## paphioland (Jan 28, 2008)

If a private person bought it from a wild plant collector in bloom people wouldn't know. It may just be a rumour or not known at all unless the private buyer wanted it shown and known. Right?


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## ohio-guy (Jan 28, 2008)

why not cross or breed with it? There was only one yellow besseae found wasn't there? It was crossed and bred, selfed, outcrossed back crossed, etc. Still rather rare though.


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## NYEric (Jan 29, 2008)

I still don't get the point. I understand having some unique object of high value; but I really can't understand not sharing it unless it is highly illegal. JMHO.


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## Candace (Jan 29, 2008)

You're a nice guy Eric, that's why you think of sharing..but many commercial folks who have to make money to stay in business would do just as Paphioland suggested. Most of us grow and love orchids as a hobby, but if I had to feed my family with the proceeds from orchid sales, I'd see them more as a commodity.


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## NYEric (Jan 29, 2008)

OK, as I said it would only be profitable to distribute a roth album genetically or by propagation.


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## paphioland (Jan 29, 2008)

Candace said:


> You're a nice guy Eric, that's why you think of sharing..but many commercial folks who have to make money to stay in business would do just as Paphioland suggested. Most of us grow and love orchids as a hobby, but if I had to feed my family with the proceeds from orchid sales, I'd see them more as a commodity.



You can call me Ken


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## paphioland (Jan 29, 2008)

NYEric said:


> OK, as I said it would only be profitable to distribute a roth album genetically or by propagation.



True but not everyone is in it for money. Some people just really love the plants! Other like the rarity and other like both.


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## Candace (Jan 29, 2008)

I didn't know if you were on the down-low or not.:rollhappy::rollhappy:


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## paphioland (Jan 29, 2008)

Candace said:


> I didn't know if you were on the down-low or not.:rollhappy::rollhappy:



Definitely not on the DL. LOL


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## NYEric (Jan 29, 2008)

paphioland said:


> Some people just really love the plants! Other like the rarity and other like both.


 If that is true wouldn't this person proudly show the plant, and if it was shown wouldn't we know about it?


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## paphioland (Jan 29, 2008)

NYEric said:


> If that is true wouldn't this person proudly show the plant, and if it was shown wouldn't we know about it?



Some people don't care what other people think or know about. It is for their personal pleasure. Same reason why some don't take things for judging. Others do. It is all personal preference. Some people fall in between. Some start one way and become another. Dealing with people is a big pain in the neck for some and it ruins their orchid experience. For others it enhances it. For some it depends on the individual person they are interacting with. I don't know why but that is just the spectrum of people into orchids....


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## Candace (Jan 29, 2008)

And hypothetically speaking, since this is all a fantasy...if someone were to receive this plant through wild collecting and without CITES docs etc. they may not want it shouted to the world. They may choose to sit on it for a while. Not literally sit on it, of course:> That would be painful and a horrible waste of plant material.


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## NYEric (Jan 29, 2008)

"No Sweet-ums, of course that plant doesn't make your butt look big."


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## Roy (Jan 30, 2008)

Might tickle her fancy though !!!!!


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## gotsomerice (Apr 11, 2008)

The pictures don't look like Paph. sanderianum to me. Look like PEoY of St. Swithin. What do you guys think?


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## paphioland (Apr 12, 2008)

gotsomerice said:


> The pictures don't look like Paph. sanderianum to me. Look like PEoY of St. Swithin. What do you guys think?



I own the plant. It is hard to tell from the pic. It could be PEOY or a SAND. Definitely not a St Swithin you can see that from the pic. It absolutely has sand in it. You can tell from the leaves. Whether it is a hybrid or not I can't ascertain until it blooms but the seller was very adamant about it on the phone and in messages.


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## gotsomerice (Apr 14, 2008)

Good luck paphioland. Will the seller refund your money if it is not?


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## paphioland (Jun 14, 2008)

This plant is def not sanderianum.It has 12 spikes. I will post pics later. Hasn't opened yet but looks like a philip. Any advice on how to not let this person get away with this fraud?


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## Heather (Jun 14, 2008)

Candace said:


> Quite the gamble for a plant with no flower photo posted. I hope the bidder hasn't been snookered.



Cut your losses?


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## paphioboy (Jun 14, 2008)

> This plant is def not sanderianum.It has 12 spikes.



:drool::drool::drool::drool::drool::drool::drool:


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## gotsomerice (Jun 14, 2008)

I am so sorry paphipland. I know that you spent so much money on this plant! I would be so mad! When I saw the plant. It doesn't look at all like sanderianum. Then when you offered him the price and he accepted. I knew right away that it was way too low for a sanderianum with that many growth. Only a few people in this country would have sanderianum that big and I don't think they will be selling it for that price or even selling the plant at all. I am sorry. I hope you can get your money back. Goodluck!


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## Hien (Jun 14, 2008)

gotsomerice said:


> I am so sorry paphipland. I know that you spent so much money on this plant! I would be so mad! When I saw the plant. It doesn't look at all like sanderianum. Then when you offered him the price and he accepted. I knew right away that it was way too low for a sanderianum with that many growth. Only a few people in this country would have sanderianum that big and I don't think they will be selling it for that price or even selling the plant at all. I am sorry. I hope you can get your money back. Goodluck!



I thought someone with the name sakuraba101 bought the plant for 1,000 dollar? and it has 5 spikes?
How does it end up land on Paphioland's lap? and 12 spikes?
My suggestion is cut it up into divisions after you see the flower, 50 bucks a piece as unknown sanderianum hybrids. you have all the money back.


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## Candace (Jun 14, 2008)

12 spikes is impressive, no matter what it is. Hopefully you'll be able to concretely i.d. it and if you don't like it sell off divisions like Hein suggested. If you can i.d. it, I bet it stands a good chance of a cultural award if the spikes are all open at the same time. 

Or take him to Judge Judy. I would be sure to Tivo that one.


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## Heather (Jun 14, 2008)

Hien said:


> 50 bucks a piece as unknown sanderianum hybrids. you have all the money back.



If it IS a sand. hybrid! (??)


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## lienluu (Jun 19, 2008)

paphioland said:


> This plant is def not sanderianum.It has 12 spikes. I will post pics later. Hasn't opened yet but looks like a philip. Any advice on how to not let this person get away with this fraud?




You went into this transaction fully knowing that it was doubtful that this plant was a P. sanderianum.


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## Heather (Jun 19, 2008)

Caveat emptor!


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## paphioland (Jun 19, 2008)

rothschildianum said:


> You went into this transaction fully knowing that it was doubtful that this plant was a P. sanderianum.



true but in the pic there is no way to say that it is not a sanderianum by the leaves. Just the vigor makes it unlikely. Actually ebay is being very helpful. The seller has the responsibility to accurately advertise the item. This seller stated with certainty both over the phone and by email that this was a sanderianum and was insulted that I would question them since they have seen it bloom many time.


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## Hien (Jun 20, 2008)

paphioland said:


> true but in the pic there is no way to say that it is not a sanderianum by the leaves. Just the vigor makes it unlikely. Actually ebay is being very helpful. The seller has the responsibility to accurately advertise the item. This seller stated with certainty both over the phone and by email that this was a sanderianum and was insulted that I would question them since they have seen it bloom many time.


 If you have not seen the flower yet, and the seller is so certain, as you stated that you can not tell by the leaves, then maybe it is still sanderianum. Perhaps a very healthy sanderianum strain.


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## paphioboy (Jun 20, 2008)

> If you have not seen the flower yet, and the seller is so certain, as you stated that you can not tell by the leaves, then maybe it is still sanderianum. Perhaps a very healthy sanderianum strain.



If it certainly is, then you MUST self it and spread it all over the world... hehe..


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## Heather (Jun 20, 2008)

paphioland said:


> ...since they have seen it bloom many time.



Surprising then that they wouldn't have a photograph. The whole episode screams red flags to me.


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## NYEric (Jun 20, 2008)

Heather said:


> The whole episode screams red flags to me.


And that makes you want to lower your horns and charge! Ole! oke:


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## Scooby5757 (Jun 20, 2008)

Do you still have the phone number? Maybe that could help locate them, but then again, they are required to post correctly. What are the legal ramifications if they don't. 

Sorry to hear about the possible fake, I look forward to seeing the flowers though! All of the photos you post are some super stuff.


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