# Mealy bugs and Scale. End of me I Quit



## lady slipper (Sep 10, 2014)

I have loved and enjoyed orchids for more than ten years and have a fairly large collection built up...fav paphs and phals. I got a start of mealy bugs from a greenhouse in SD. I never had them before and boy did I find out what those critters are like. I hand water daily and besides this take huge chunks of time to hand pick scales and mealies. When I do get a nice truss of phal blooms I get sticky crap in and around petals that ruin those. I have tried various chemicals and all to no avail....yes, I know try this try that. I spray alchohol and pick bugs and am just at my wits end. It just spoils all the fun. As much as i love orchids I am only one or two days away from loosing it and into the garbage they go!! HELP.


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## NYEric (Sep 10, 2014)

Unfortunately, the best way to get rid of them in a home environment is manually. I do plant maintenance on a part of the collection daily. (1-2 hours). After removing any bad critters manually I spray with a solution, Water, alcohol, Dr. Bonner's lavender soap, Neem oil and Merit 75. I follow up in a month with another application, seems to work. Keep hope alive, we can win this battle.


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## eggshells (Sep 10, 2014)

Mealys are one of the easiest to get rid of in my opinion. You just need to do a diligent spray of insecticide to break the cycle as they don't hatch at the same time. I use Safer's works great on them.


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## JeanLux (Sep 10, 2014)

I just had a cleaning of my gh, meaning 600 plants out, high-pressure cleaner, and plants back.. but most of them had to be checked for mealies and similar! For me the best remedy is still a solid tooth-brush when you have mature plants...!!! Jean


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## TyroneGenade (Sep 10, 2014)

Try malathion. It is harmless to humans and most other critters and doesn't seem to harm the plants. It smells terrible, so spray the plants/green house and then go out for the day. This stuff even knocked the mealybug from my lemon tree. Plants seem to take the chemical up into their tissues so it serves as a systemic. I never needed to use the malathion a second time.


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## Justin (Sep 10, 2014)

I have been there. After years of suffering i went for the big guns. It is expensive but oh-so-worth it...

I use a mix of Enstar II and Decathlon 20 WP. I bought them both from Hummert. I have never had another infestation after implementing this. If a single mealy or scale comes in from the outside, i do a quick spray down of the collection, repeat a week later, and see nothing again for months.


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## Erythrone (Sep 10, 2014)

TyroneGenade said:


> Try malathion. It is harmless to humans and most other critters and doesn't seem to harm the plants. It smells terrible, so spray the plants/green house and then go out for the day. This stuff even knocked the mealybug from my lemon tree. Plants seem to take the chemical up into their tissues so it serves as a systemic. I never needed to use the malathion a second time.



Harmless to humain?? Systemic?


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## likespaphs (Sep 10, 2014)

i guess malathion does have fairly low mammalian toxicity, even though it's an organophosphate
at least, that's what wikipedia says


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## emydura (Sep 10, 2014)

I had the same problem with mealy bugs. A big infestation that I couldn't get rid of. I was wanting to give up my hobby too. Then I read that the best way to kill them was to mix white oil with ROGOR (50% mix). The ROGOR is systemic and the white oil helps the plant absorb the ROGOR. I sprayed it for 3 weeks in a row. I haven't had much problem since. The ROGOR stinks though. I hate the smell.


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## likespaphs (Sep 10, 2014)

if you don't mind having a few bugs in the house, you could get some lacewing eggs (or larvae) to eat the mealies
they won't go after adult scale though
and they will bite and it will hurt a little, if you cross them, so to speak
you'll also find dead adult lacewings around eventually too, but i don't think they actually eat as adults, but certainly don't have any interest in people


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Sep 10, 2014)

Don't forget what every you spray, do multiple spraying a week apart. I usually go for 4 spraying. 

On another note, I've been spraying horticulture oil at 1 tablespoon per gallon on my whole collection (greenhouse) once a month. Have been doing this for over a year and no little bugs to date.


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## mrhappyrotter (Sep 10, 2014)

Regular preventative maintenance is necessary with sizable collections of plants, particularly if there are exposure risks (i.e. new acquisitions, plants coming in from outdoors, etc).

The important thing to note is that, it can take time for these methods to work, and most of them do require regular treatment. Once the pests are visibly gone, you will still need and want to develop a strategy to keep them at bay.

My pest/disease preventative is monthly to bi-monthly application of Neem oil. I like it because it makes the leaves shine, kills insects, and seems to significantly reduce the spread of fungal/bacterial infections. I mix a relatively weak dose with some dish detergent and spray. It seems effective. It does have a pungent odor, but the smell is far more palatable than the bitterants or whatever it is they add to insecticides to make them smell so repulsive.

For more pro-active care, I'll hit plants with some Safer soap if I see scale insects, mealy bugs, or mite damage. I actually don't know whether it's more effective than Neem, but I feel like mixing things up a bit will help prevent the pests from adapting. For fungal or bacterial issues, I keep a spray bottle of cinnamon extract, though I use that very sparingly after finding out the hard way that bromeliads and several other types of plants can't handle even a bit of side splash.

I can't say I've had any major battles with mealy or scale (yet), but I know in my collection, it seems to be mites that find their way in from time to time. Other than that, most of my creepy crawlies are more benign, such as pill bugs, spring tails, fungus gnats, and spiders. I don't generally bother to spray or treat for those. A good flush tends to flood most of them out periodically and keeps those populations in check.


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## bullsie (Sep 10, 2014)

I like the products that you drench with. Plant takes it up, unwanted livestock get the effects no matter where they are hiding and my plants become pest free. Spraying wasn't an option for me. I have been using Merit 75 as a drench. Once a week for three weeks - four weeks for mealies. I haven't tried Orthene WP yet, although I have invested in it. Will have to just close the doors to the plant room when I do use it. 

Since we are on the subject! How long after using Orthene does it take before it doesn't smell so nasty?


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## Ozpaph (Sep 10, 2014)

emydura said:


> I had the same problem with mealy bugs. A big infestation that I couldn't get rid of. I was wanting to give up my hobby too. Then I read that the best way to kill them was to mix white oil with ROGOR (50% mix). The ROGOR is systemic and the white oil helps the plant absorb the ROGOR. I sprayed it for 3 weeks in a row. I haven't had much problem since. The ROGOR stinks though. I hate the smell.



David, where can you get ROGOR, nowadays?


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## AdamD (Sep 10, 2014)

bullsie said:


> I like the products that you drench with. Plant takes it up, unwanted livestock get the effects no matter where they are hiding and my plants become pest free. Spraying wasn't an option for me. I have been using Merit 75 as a drench. Once a week for three weeks - four weeks for mealies. I haven't tried Orthene WP yet, although I have invested in it. Will have to just close the doors to the plant room when I do use it.
> 
> Since we are on the subject! How long after using Orthene does it take before it doesn't smell so nasty?



I just used Orthene 97 for the first time, and I sprayed it in my house. NOT ADVISEABLE AT ALL! I'll never use it in home again. Not only was it stinky, it definitely traveled throughout the house. I was woozy for sure and so was my wife, who was one floor up from where I sprayed. I sprayed a week later outdoors, much better. That was this past weekend, and my plants still smell like dead rat/ burnt hair/ open sewer. But it is waning by the day. I still have a small scale problem on 4 plants, they've been quarantined and they'll have to be treated again this weekend. One thing I can say, no phytotoxicity whatsoever. But, please, do not spray this in your house. Especially if you have little ones or pets


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## emydura (Sep 10, 2014)

Ozpaph said:


> David, where can you get ROGOR, nowadays?



I still have the bottle I bought many years ago. I don't need to use it much. Is it no longer available?

Whatever you use you need something systemic. A lot of people recommend Confidor. It kills mealy bugs that are directly sprayed on but does nothing on the majority you can't see.


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## daniella3d (Sep 10, 2014)

I don't beleive in biological control. It is impossible for a predator to eliminate all prey, and in nature it is conterproductif to do. Population tend to balance and there will always be some bugs left with biological control.

There is a greenhouse here advertising a chimical free environment and biololical control only. Well I went there and many of their plants were infested with mealbugs and other insects. As a result many of the orchid leaves were full of black spots and in poor condition.

I battled mealbugs for 2 years in some of my orchids and finally got rid of them with washing, brushing, etc... but if I had a large collection infested I would take out the strong products. Easy to get rid of? I did not think so.



likespaphs said:


> if you don't mind having a few bugs in the house, you could get some lacewing eggs (or larvae) to eat the mealies
> they won't go after adult scale though
> and they will bite and it will hurt a little, if you cross them, so to speak
> you'll also find dead adult lacewings around eventually too, but i don't think they actually eat as adults, but certainly don't have any interest in people


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## TyroneGenade (Sep 10, 2014)

Erythrone said:


> Harmless to humain?? Systemic?



Yeah, some guy drank a glass of the stuff to prove to people that it was safe to spray on suburban areas to kill mosquitoes (West Nile paranoia I think). I must dig up the article... Anyway, he lived.

The bottle I had advised not eating fruits off a sprayed tree for 30 days... I can't image why. If a glass won't kill you, a trace wouldn't.


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## bullsie (Sep 10, 2014)

AdamD said:


> I just used Orthene 97 for the first time, and I sprayed it in my house. NOT ADVISEABLE AT ALL! I'll never use it in home again. Not only was it stinky, it definitely traveled throughout the house. I was woozy for sure and so was my wife, who was one floor up from where I sprayed. I sprayed a week later outdoors, much better. That was this past weekend, and my plants still smell like dead rat/ burnt hair/ open sewer. But it is waning by the day. I still have a small scale problem on 4 plants, they've been quarantined and they'll have to be treated again this weekend. One thing I can say, no phytotoxicity whatsoever. But, please, do not spray this in your house. Especially if you have little ones or pets



Because I do grow in my home, I never spray. I do drench. I've been using the Merit 75 but have trouble with a pest that doesn't mind the Merit (I think thrips). Was hoping the Orthene would fix everybody. I can tolerate the smell if it goes a week. But I am also wondering if application will have to be more than once - as I do the Merit? (I couldn't treat them outside this year as we had a bumper crop of leopard frog babies everywhere. I was afraid of poisoning them.)


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## abax (Sep 10, 2014)

Orthene 97% WP as a DRENCH will take care of just about any critter
around. Don't spray! Just drench the potting medium outside and then
wait an hour or so and take the plants back inside.


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## Bjorn (Sep 11, 2014)

For those of you that complain about smell. Most insecticides do not smell. Most of the unpleasant odor that we notice when we spray, is something the manufacturer has added as a security precaution to warn for spills/use etc. So, if the smell gets too bad, then try a different brand (with the same active ingredient e.g. acephate or imidacloprid) and see if the smell improves.
One word on acephate (aka Orthene) Its not poisonus for the insects unless they feed on it. The insectial metabolism supposedly transform the acephate into poison. So, no effect on non-feeding insects. Makes several applications necessary.


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## Lordoftheswarms (Sep 11, 2014)

I just used a systemic insecticide, all my scale and mealy bug are gone. Easiest solution ever.


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## mrhappyrotter (Sep 11, 2014)

TyroneGenade said:


> Yeah, some guy drank a glass of the stuff to prove to people that it was safe to spray on suburban areas to kill mosquitoes (West Nile paranoia I think). I must dig up the article... Anyway, he lived.
> 
> The bottle I had advised not eating fruits off a sprayed tree for 30 days... I can't image why. If a glass won't kill you, a trace wouldn't.



The difference between acute poisoning (drinking a glass of it) versus chronic exposure (long term, but smaller doses from eating fruit treated with a chemical) can be pretty significant.

When chemicals and pesticides go through government review, the entity/entities developing/registering them must submit an extensive amount of study data regarding the safety of the ingredients. In the case of pesticides, there are typically numerous studies done on a range of animals detailing the effects of both chronic and acute exposure. This is because the effects can be vastly different.

You're thinking of it in terms of eating a single fruit, which is probably safe enough, even if it's been recently sprayed.

But if a large enough percentage of growers are using it (or similar products) then additional precautions are necessary to limit your chronic exposure. Sure, it's just one apple today. A slice of tomato tomorrow. A salad on the next, and so on. It doesn't take long before you risk chronic exposure.


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## Stella (Sep 11, 2014)

JeanLux said:


> I just had a cleaning of my gh, meaning 600 plants out, high-pressure cleaner, and plants back.. but most of them had to be checked for mealies and similar! *For me the best remedy is still a solid tooth-brush when you have mature plants...!!!* Jean




What do you mean by toothbrush Jean ???


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## bullsie (Sep 11, 2014)

abax said:


> Orthene 97% WP as a DRENCH will take care of just about any critter
> around. Don't spray! Just drench the potting medium outside and then
> wait an hour or so and take the plants back inside.



Thanks so very much!!!!!:clap::clap::clap::clap:

Will one application work? I'm looking forward to a bug free winter.


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## likespaphs (Sep 11, 2014)

one application probably will not lead you to a bug-free winter
orthene is a dangerous pesticide so be careful when you use it and make sure people, animals, and anything else you don't want to kill are out of the area




daniella3d said:


> I don't beleive in biological control. It is impossible for a predator to eliminate all prey, and in nature it is conterproductif to do. Population tend to balance and there will always be some bugs left with biological control.
> 
> There is a greenhouse here advertising a chimical free environment and biololical control only. Well I went there and many of their plants were infested with mealbugs and other insects. As a result many of the orchid leaves were full of black spots and in poor condition.
> 
> I battled mealbugs for 2 years in some of my orchids and finally got rid of them with washing, brushing, etc... but if I had a large collection infested I would take out the strong products. Easy to get rid of? I did not think so.




i have had a different experience with beneficial insects and have used them effectively in greenhouses (and in my home) for years
it depends upon the insect and the environment as to whether or not they will eat everything
Cryptolaemus montrouzieri (mealybug destroyers) typically will not eat all of the population of mealies 
Lacewing larvae on the other hand will eat everything they can fit into their mouths, and they'll take a bite out of things that are too big
depending on the greenhouse, some of the mealies (and probably aphids too, if they were present) may have been parasitized (stung by a wasp that lays its egg in the varmit. the egg hatches and the larva consumes the host from the inside out, then cuts itself out of the varmint and moves on to the next pest)
if the greenhouse you visited had aphids, did you notice if they were bronze or goldish colored?


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## TyroneGenade (Sep 11, 2014)

mrhappyrotter said:


> The difference between acute poisoning (drinking a glass of it) versus chronic exposure (long term, but smaller doses from eating fruit treated with a chemical) can be pretty significant.



A good point.

For the record: this worked for me as a one-off application so I don't think there is any risk of chronic exposure.


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## likespaphs (Sep 11, 2014)

abax said:


> Orthene 97% WP...wait an hour or so and take the plants back inside.



actually, orthene has a 24 hour restricted entry interval (the amount of time that needs to pass before it is safe to enter the area or touch the plants without personal protective equipment)

http://www.amvac-chemical.com/products/documents/orthene97_specimenlabel.pdf


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## bullsie (Sep 11, 2014)

likespaphs said:


> actually, orthene has a 24 hour restricted entry interval (the amount of time that needs to pass before it is safe to enter the area or touch the plants without personal protective equipment)
> 
> http://www.amvac-chemical.com/products/documents/orthene97_specimenlabel.pdf




Is that for drench or spraying or both?


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## Paph_LdyMacBeth (Sep 11, 2014)

There are predatory mites that you can purchase which feed on the pests. Seems kinda weird to introduce them into your home, but they aren't interested in anything other than their food source. Non toxic! Just creepy! 

Sent from my BlackBerry Bold 9900 using Tapatalk


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## abax (Sep 11, 2014)

Susan, I'd wait out the 24 hours if the plants are taken into your home
after drenching. If your plants have been outside all summer, I'd drench
a couple of times with one teaspoon per gallon of water. I keep a two
gallon pump sprayer in the greenhouse and drench every plant no matter
how clean it looks before the plant settles into my collection. I haven't
had any kind of infestation in years. *knock knock*


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## bullsie (Sep 12, 2014)

abax said:


> Susan, I'd wait out the 24 hours if the plants are taken into your home
> after drenching. If your plants have been outside all summer, I'd drench
> a couple of times with one teaspoon per gallon of water. I keep a two
> gallon pump sprayer in the greenhouse and drench every plant no matter
> ...



Sounds good! I can do that. Right now our temps are going to be in the 40's and I've brought everyone in for the winter, but I have them on carts so a trip outside on the cart will be easy. We get another warm spell and they will get a good 'foot bath'!


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## JeanLux (Sep 12, 2014)

Stella said:


> What do you mean by toothbrush Jean ???



I spent quite some time yesterday cleaning a large Ansellia growth from mealies with a toothbrush..., and I do the same for my catts, laelias and similar ..!! Jean

Sorry, maybe this helps => οδοντόβουρτσα (I hope the translator-result is shown correctly here)


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## cnycharles (Sep 12, 2014)

TyroneGenade said:


> Yeah, some guy drank a glass of the stuff to prove to people that it was safe to spray on suburban areas to kill mosquitoes (West Nile paranoia I think). I must dig up the article... Anyway, he lived.
> 
> The bottle I had advised not eating fruits off a sprayed tree for 30 days... I can't image why. If a glass won't kill you, a trace wouldn't.



Yes a ny legislator or something like that, long time ago. It was a publicity stunt, and it's not as benign as that

Do a google search for malathion msds


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## Erythrone (Sep 12, 2014)

cnycharles said:


> Yes a ny legislator or something like that, long time ago. It was a publicity stunt, and it's not as benign as that
> 
> Do a google search for malathion msds



And we must always remember that adjuvant are often added to pesticides. Are all adjuvants harmless to humain?


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## PaphMadMan (Sep 12, 2014)

TyroneGenade said:


> Yeah, some guy drank a glass of the stuff to prove to people that it was safe to spray on suburban areas to kill mosquitoes (West Nile paranoia I think). I must dig up the article... Anyway, he lived.
> 
> The bottle I had advised not eating fruits off a sprayed tree for 30 days... I can't image why. If a glass won't kill you, a trace wouldn't.



35 years ago I had a horticulture professor who was often heard to say that you could use a spoonful of malathion to sweeten your coffee and it wouldn't hurt you. And it is an approved treatment for lice and fleas on humans and pets. Mammallian toxicity is pretty low. But it is highly toxic to bees and amphibians.


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## daniella3d (Sep 12, 2014)

It's impossible to have predators without preys or they would die probably before they manage to eliminate every single pests or their eggs. If you only control with predators, then you surely have preys still in your plants.

The greenhouse I visited have mealy bugs, some plants pretty badly infested. I did not look for aphids, so not sure about them.

I also saw thripps on some. Sure enough the predators cannot possibly eliminate all the bugs.

I tried biological control in my reef aquarium for aiptasias, a real pest. The creature that eats them multiplied a lot but populations tend to reach a balance and stay there. I did have less of the pest but of course if they would eat all of them they would simply die. So the predator simply multiplied less when the food was going scarse and I still had the pest anyway. Not good as I wanted them out of my aquarium for good.

This is the greenhouse I visited which advertise biological control:

http://www.leparadisdesorchidees.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=main.entreprise&pano=1

There was about 30 plants put aside as well for they were infested with mealybugs. I bought two plants from them and one of them does have mealy bugs that I found yesterday.

The use of beneficial insects limits the proliferation of a pest and regulates the population in a natural and constant manner, but does not eliminate them.



likespaphs said:


> i have had a different experience with beneficial insects and have used them effectively in greenhouses (and in my home) for years
> it depends upon the insect and the environment as to whether or not they will eat everything
> Cryptolaemus montrouzieri (mealybug destroyers) typically will not eat all of the population of mealies
> Lacewing larvae on the other hand will eat everything they can fit into their mouths, and they'll take a bite out of things that are too big
> ...


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## Erythrone (Sep 12, 2014)

> The use of beneficial insects limits the proliferation of a pest and regulates the population in a natural and constant manner, but does not eliminate them.



That's why it is biological control, not biological elimination (Although I have a few success stories about aphids and spider mites).

I use biolocical control since 2008 or 2009. You are right. Auxilliaries usually cannot eliminate pests. That is why we must monitor the pest population and add auxillaries frequently. Sometimes we can find how to raise auxilliaries without pest. Some of them can be raised on pollen (cucumeris is an example). I raised Orius insidiosus (a thrips predator) on flowering basil plants, but they need warm temperatures to breed well (my growing room is too cold for many auxillaries many months of the year). But I must admit I now spray botanigard every 2 or 3 weeks for control of mealies and thrips. And it works very well. I only saw a few thrips for the last year. And no more mealies.

So I use a similar strategy than the one of Le Paradis des Orchidées (Laurent and I often discuss about pest control). But I think the grower cannot spray Botanigard as often than I because their greenhouses are to warm in summer.


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## Bjorn (Sep 13, 2014)

And when we buy these orchids and get them home-voila-an eruption of pests unless we spray diligently. One reason to stay with flasks, every time I get some plants i also get mealies:evil:


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## Ozpaph (Sep 13, 2014)

emydura said:


> I still have the bottle I bought many years ago. I don't need to use it much. Is it no longer available?
> 
> Whatever you use you need something systemic. A lot of people recommend Confidor. It kills mealy bugs that are directly sprayed on but does nothing on the majority you can't see.



I cant find Rogor here anymore. Condifor works reasonable well but need to rotate chemicals to minimise resistance.


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## Erythrone (Sep 13, 2014)

Bjorn said:


> And when we buy these orchids and get them home-voila-an eruption of pests unless we spray diligently. One reason to stay with flasks, every time I get some plants i also get mealies:evil:



I agree... almost all growers sold me someday some plants with scales, false spides mites or mealybugs even if they use "strong" chemichals.


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## Stella (Sep 14, 2014)

JeanLux said:


> I spent quite some time yesterday cleaning a large Ansellia growth from mealies with a toothbrush..., and I do the same for my catts, laelias and similar ..!! Jean
> 
> Sorry, maybe this helps => οδοντόβουρτσα (I hope the translator-result is shown correctly here)




Oh, I know what toothbrush means 
Do you mean that you use a toothbrush to clean the mealies without any chemical??? That is what confuse me....


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## SlipperFan (Sep 14, 2014)

I don't know that I'd use a toothbrush on mealies -- a little too rough, I think. A cotton-tipped toothpick or Q-tip dipped in alcohol works well. As does spraying the little buggers with alcohol (drug-store type).


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## Stella (Sep 15, 2014)

SlipperFan said:


> I don't know that I'd use a toothbrush on mealies -- a little too rough, I think.* A cotton-tipped toothpick or Q-tip dipped in alcohol works well. *As does spraying the little buggers with alcohol (drug-store type).




I do exactly the same thing if the infection is limited (seems to work the cotton-tip) otherwise I spray with chemicals....


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## lepetitmartien (Sep 15, 2014)

On my side, it's:
- Cleaning of beasts with cotton, q-tip, and Alcohol 70°.
- General spraying of a mix water/alcohol/safer soap. Repeated every 2-3 days and when spotting a monster.
- If the invasion is severe, a bath with 3 tsp of alcohol / liter of water to eliminate those hidden in the pot (after a watering to limit exchanges), then I rince. (note, I do this on Phals, as I only have mealies on them)
- Or eventual repotting as its not always the right time.
- Spraying of a dilution of nettle manure at 1-2%, to boost defences and given the plant a baaaad taste. Mealies don't like.
- every watering for a month with 1-2% of nettle manure.

And if after a month there's still some suckers, I go on chemicals, they are so weak it's the end of it.


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## JeanLux (Sep 15, 2014)

Stella said:


> Oh, I know what toothbrush means
> Do you mean that you use a toothbrush* to clean the mealies without *any chemical??? That is what confuse me....



No, not without, but the brush does a great deal during the first stage, then chemicals..,and ev. brush again.. ! Jean


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## naoki (Sep 15, 2014)

LPM, do you use nettle water as the source of NH4 nitrogen? Or is there something else against the insect?


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## Stella (Sep 15, 2014)

JeanLux said:


> No, not without, but the brush does a great deal during the first stage, then chemicals..,and ev. brush again.. ! Jean



Thank you for the response Jean!!!


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## reivilos (Sep 15, 2014)

Piece of cake. I've had a mealy / thrips combo lately and I just unpotted / repotted / treated / isolated in bags each and every one of them. Mealies are out. As for thrips,I'll rely on auxiliaries for the last round:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orvvxkbz8rE


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## phraggy (Sep 16, 2014)

There's a product called vitax 2 in 1. Either mix it yourself or buy the spray bottle. It not only kills all the bugs but puts a very thin film over the plant which eliminates the eggs of critters by cutting off their oxygen supply. Works every time,

Ed


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## lepetitmartien (Sep 16, 2014)

naoki said:


> LPM, do you use nettle water as the source of NH4 nitrogen? Or is there something else against the insect?


For nettle water, there's terpenes that are precursors of defenses of plants. And insects and mites don't like.

I don't know what happens in the fermentation to other potents molecules that are in the nettles (the stinging part), it's never addressed in the literature I've read on the subject.

With fresh nettles it kills (12-24h maceration), with first fermentation (a few days to 2-3 weeks), it's repulsive. Never use the second fermentation (the stinky one, the state of stink afterwards) as repulsive, it'll bring in pests, but you can use it to activate compost or water plants by watering the soil, but never on the plant.

And besides it brings N and elements that are god for the plant, as long as it's diluted enough. There was an article on the SFO website giving a 5% dilution for orchids (article removed seemingly), the actual article is back at 20% which is the usual dilution for all plants. Myself I use 1-2% dilutions as I search the repulsive effect mainly.

I'm making small experiments with it as sole treatment after a thorough cleaning, I have not the perfect procedure yet for all case but have greatly reduced my use of chemicals to some mealies reluctant to die. (For the hairsplitters here, it's not scientific, I don't have the time, the money and the plants in dozens to make such thing.)

Note that I'm in Europe, and use the common stinging nettle here (Urtica dioica) which is the one commonly used in this, or the stabilized product available for trade. It's possible to buy dry Urtica dioica for the time of the year when it's not fresh out there.

There's Urtica plants all around the world, by I would be very cautious with other plants in the genus, some species can kill… (especially in Oz and Papua afaik).

(There's silica in it btw…  LOL


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## Erythrone (Sep 17, 2014)

Thanks LPM! And I am proud to say Urtica dioica is a common weed here too! 

BTW, can you tell me if there is any risk of virus transmission by using nettle water on orchids?


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## Secundino (Sep 17, 2014)

Great LPM!
I can confirm the three degrees of fermentation, used them in my garden. As it is a bit difficult to choose the right day for 1st fermentation (depends on temperature) I don't use it any more for orchids, nor indoors. There are fine rooted orchids that don't like it at all (_Dendrobium_), even very diluted. I assume it is because of the high amount of bacterial activity in fresh nettle water. 
But in the garden its liquid gold!


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## naoki (Sep 17, 2014)

Very interesting, and thanks for the info, LPM!


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## lepetitmartien (Sep 17, 2014)

To help, *the recipe :*
(note, it's not the legal in france, as it's been fixed by a ministry law, and the official recipe is wrong…)

- fresh nettles (usually before flowering, but it's just for convenience for filtering, flowers and seeds make a mess…) 1 kg. Choose only clean, unstained, nettles, without fungus marks nettles.
(or dried nettles 200-300g)
Don't think that adding more will make it better, it won't.
- rain water 10 liters (No hard water! It must be acid)
- a container, more wide than deep (for practical reasons when mixing the witch soup) larger than necessary. A large plastic bin is fine. Wood is fine, but no metal!
- a place protected of the sun, of wind, with a regular temperature if possible in the 15-25°C range.
- preferably a big tissue bag, or a wood piece to put on the nettles or a cover (with an opening)
- Something to turn the mixture
- A colander (with a 1-2mm net), pieces of clothes or an old tee shirt to filter (not too wide, not to small openings)

Large quantities are easier to control than small ones.

Set the nettles in pieces a few cm long, in the container, cover with the water. turn the mixture to remove the air bubbles. Add the cover.

Turn a few minutes the mixture everyday, or twice a day if it's hot. After 24-48 hours a foam of small bubbles will turn up, it's the first fermentation. It'll last 4-5 days to 2-3 weeks depending of the temperature. The hotter, the faster. Don't go too fast, the timelapse to stop the fermentation is short (a day at best) and should not be missed.

As long as there's the foamy little bubbles, there should be nothing else to do. There should be next to no odor save maybe those of nettles, it can go stronger but never stinky.

When the bubbles stop, the first fermentation is done, it's time to filter and store. The surface of the liquid should be a little oily. Removed the big bits (the big tissue bag helps here), then use the colander to filter, then the tee shirt. The liquid in the end should be quite transparent, though colored (green yellow, but mine is red-brown), the filtering must not be perfect, just spraysafe. The aim is to remove the bits with chlorophyl, that can fuel the second fermentation.

The garbage filtered can be used in compost.

Store in plastic bottles/containers, with no air inside, in the dark and in a fresh place. It should stay fine for months.

There's stabilization processes around, to help conservation. but I have no access to those used by pro-ducers here. So I can't help on this, one may involve lactoserum, another a toxic compound (sulfur dioxide), note that I don't know which are used and how, it may even be something else, it's the only information I've found yet.

If it STINKS, it went thru the second fermentation and should not be used as repulsive, it won't work…

*About viruses…* I've searched on my own, asked a friend who has access to scientific literature databases, and I have not been able to find:
- if nettles have viruses in common with orchids, not even a list of viruses infecting nettles.
- if viruses survive the fermentation.
So I'm in the dark in this regard.

Hope this helps


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## NYEric (Sep 18, 2014)

I wonder if lady slipper/Phrag Man - is still around?!


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## Erythrone (Sep 19, 2014)

lepetitmartien said:


> To help, *the recipe :*
> (note, it's not the legal in france, as it's been fixed by a ministry law, and the official recipe is wrong…)
> 
> - fresh nettles (usually before flowering, but it's just for convenience for filtering, flowers and seeds make a mess…) 1 kg. Choose only clean, unstained, nettles, without fungus marks nettles.
> ...



Thank you!


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## NYEric (Sep 19, 2014)

I don't even know what nettles are!


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## lepetitmartien (Sep 19, 2014)

You'll know it when it'll sting you. :evil::evil::evil:

(For the silica part, the "injectors" of nettles are made of it, pure silica glass which is inert.) :fight:


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## NYEric (Sep 19, 2014)

I looked it up. Not much chance of that in the concrete jungle! BTW i didn't know you could cook and eat them!


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## lepetitmartien (Sep 19, 2014)

You can cook, make tea, use the fibers, fertilize, kill/repulse pests, feed the animals in the farm… quite good all rounder it is! Now you can perfectly have some in town, it likes some human unbalanced fields, with too much N for a normal balance. It's common in Europe near places where theres a lot of urea (near buildings in farms for example). You can have some in wasteland too.


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## Erythrone (Sep 19, 2014)

I've often found it as a weed with annual bedding plants sold in pots in spring. Like LPM I am pretty sure there are some in NY city. Maybe you should take a look at community gardens?


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## cnycharles (Sep 19, 2014)

maybe some between the apple tree and the bee hive


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## ALToronto (Sep 20, 2014)

In Russia, nettles are about as commonplace as dandelions, and are considered a noxious weed. They grow everywhere. They're very rare in Canada, and I have no idea why - the climate and growing conditions are the same. 

I still get nasty flashbacks from being stung by them when I was little. You have to wear gloves and thick long sleeves if you want to pick them.


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## Bjorn (Sep 20, 2014)

ALToronto said:


> In Russia, nettles are about as commonplace as dandelions, and are considered a noxious weed. They grow everywhere. They're very rare in Canada, and I have no idea why - the climate and growing conditions are the same.
> 
> I still get nasty flashbacks from being stung by them when I was little. You have to wear gloves and thick long sleeves if you want to pick them.



Not only in russia here at my place its everywhere and one of my main roundup targets. :evil:
Further its even one of the commonest weeds that seed into the orchid compost!
does not grow well there though as it likes high fertilizer levels. Its actually used as an indicator plant for N-rich soils.


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## Erythrone (Sep 20, 2014)

ALToronto said:


> In Russia, nettles are about as commonplace as dandelions, and are considered a noxious weed. They grow everywhere. They're very rare in Canada, and I have no idea why - the climate and growing conditions are the same.
> 
> I still get nasty flashbacks from being stung by them when I was little. You have to wear gloves and thick long sleeves if you want to pick them.



They are not very rare here


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## SlipperFan (Sep 21, 2014)

Very common here. And when I forget to wear gloves when I'm weeding....!


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## lepetitmartien (Sep 23, 2014)

When I made my fermented extract this summer, I forgot the gloves… So 2,5 kg later I had hands stinging though less than I thought it would. It helped me forget the pain in one wrist I had and still have, during 2 days, then it stopped.

There's simple cures to diminish the stinging, sodium bicarbonate in cataplasm, to lower the pH and break some molecules, and crushed leaves of Plantago major or Plantago lanceolata will lower the pain. It was too late for bicarbonate, but the Plantago works. 

BTW, on the mealies front, after my return 10 days ago, I did a mechanical removal, then water/alcohol/soap spray, and the nettle extract I had left on my hands (not much) and for now a big week later, no one in sight (but it'll come…). Next watering soon to come will be nettle powered "full force" (5% to try).


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## daniella3d (Oct 25, 2014)

I hope you understand that this will not eradicate, only control. YOu will always have pests in your plants.

Not good enough for me. All the 5 plants that I bought from this place are infested with mealy bugs. Today I used Imidacloprid. nough already.

Anyone tried to suffocate them with carbone dioxyde (dry ice)? I read about a method that should kill everything safely if done in a tightly scealed place like an aquarium with saranwrap. Someone used dry ice to generate carbone dioxyde in a scealed aquarium. He poured dry ice in a bowl of hot water and the dry ice instantly generated a lot of dioxyde, then he left this for an hour and all the bugs were dead. Seams like a very effective and safe way to kill them all. Totally harmless for the plants, even beneficial.





likespaphs said:


> one application probably will not lead you to a bug-free winter
> orthene is a dangerous pesticide so be careful when you use it and make sure people, animals, and anything else you don't want to kill are out of the area
> 
> 
> ...


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## NYEric (Oct 25, 2014)

Never heard of that. Let us know how it goes.


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## daniella3d (Oct 26, 2014)

I will not try the CO2 method myself because I don't have the equipement needed. Heck, I would not know where to buy dry ice or even co2 container, so I used imidacloprid. It's systemic and should be very effective.

Here is a link about the co2 method. Of course nobody should be allowed to breath the co2 so it must be very well contained.

http://www.orchidboard.com/eliminate-terrarium-pests-with-co2

Maybe I would try that next summer if I have pets problem so I could try that outside in an aquarium or terrarium.




NYEric said:


> Never heard of that. Let us know how it goes.


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## mormodes (Oct 26, 2014)

The original poster never returned to this thread to say if any of this helped, not that there's a requirement to do so, LOL! If you are still out there Ladyslipper I'd like to know if anything helped.


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## troy (Oct 26, 2014)

I got a pyrethrin spray blend that I sprayed in a haynaldianum crown I saw mealies in and it liquified them. problem solved no harm to the plant, I can post a pic of the product when I get home


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## cnycharles (Oct 27, 2014)

sometimes places that make/sell block or other ice have dry ice as well. i know of a beefalo producer in the jackson valley of wyoming that packs and ships frozen meat in boxes with dry ice


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## kellyincville (Oct 27, 2014)

Interesting idea with dry ice. In my area it's sold pelletized by some grocery stores. 

I use it at work sometimes when I need to drop the temperature of a container quickly. I would be very concerned about cold damage to the plants. In the link the person mitigated that by adding hot water but personally, I would still be wary. 

Unlike CO, breathing CO2 isn't going to hurt you but if you're inside some ventilation is needed. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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