# Phrag Albopurpureum 'Sir Arthur'



## Gilda (Jun 24, 2008)

Like Marilyn stated , this is a lot like Schroderae . My Albo. is darker than Schrod. and the petals don't twist . I jumped the gun and took this pic before the dorsal was finished opening.


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## NYEric (Jun 24, 2008)

Wow. that's an old cross, registered in 1877!


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## SlipperFan (Jun 24, 2008)

Amazing how different these can be:
Phrag. Albopurpureaum


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## NYEric (Jun 24, 2008)

Dot, as I said B4, your's looks very diff.


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## Wendy (Jun 24, 2008)

Your flower is beautiful.

I think Dot's and mine (which came from the same place) are actually Calurum. They both look the same and totally different from yours.


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## Gilda (Jun 24, 2008)

SlipperFan said:


> Amazing how different these can be:
> Phrag. Albopurpureaum


 
The difference between your X and the awarded 'Sir Arthur'

The description of phrag Albopurpureum 'Sir Arthur' in Wildcatt is as follows:
_Two flowers & one bud irridecent pink in color- darker pink pouch ,petals curving around pouch to form a frame extending down 65 cm._ 
This pretty much describes mine.


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## SlipperFan (Jun 24, 2008)

Wendy, mine came from John at Zephyrus. He had a photo of the flower with the plant when I saw it, which is why I purchased it. It's obvious to me that John thinks this is labeled correctly.

It would be nice to know for sure what it is. From the photos I've seen of Calurum, I don't think it's that -- mine is too pale compared to those. But I agree that it doesn't look like the other photos posted of Albopurpureum. However, I think I should keep the label as such until it is shown to be another name.

Meanwhile, Gilda, yours is very, very pretty.


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## Wendy (Jun 24, 2008)

Agreed...I have both labels in mine and won't use it for breeding as I will never know for sure. It's a keeper whatever it is. Mine is also very pale...almost white. It's in bloom right now with three inflorescence; a very vigorous plant.


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## SlipperKing (Jun 25, 2008)

OK Ladies,
Let me throw a wench-in-the-works just to give you all something to think about and discuss.

Here is a comparison of 2 of my plants both Albopurureum
The first one:




Now the second:




Here are the two together:




And a close up of the leaves to compare sizes:




Both are Albopurpreums, neither one has a clonal name. So, are they or are they not the same cross???


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## Roy (Jun 25, 2008)

Rick, I just did an RHS check on the parentage of Schroderae and Albopurpurem. Both crosses should look similar to each other as per the Albopurpureum shown by Gilda, the petal twisting would be the only minor difference. Your second pic looks similar to but more open than the pic on Phragweb ( which isn't operating, for me anyway ) of Phrag Saundersianum = caudatum x schlimii. I have a Saundersianum but it hasn't flowered yet, the description given to me by the sellers is as for your second pic, plant size included, compact size to small. Different clones different flower shape.


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## NYEric (Jun 25, 2008)

SlipperKing said:


> OK Ladies,
> Let me throw a wench-in-the-works ?


Wench in the works. I think you're going to pay for that. oke: 
Dot, I'm sure your's is Calurum v. Candidulum.


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## Leo Schordje (Jun 25, 2008)

In the Olden Days, mid 1960's and very early 1970's when several large batches of old even then Phrag hybrids were brought in from England by Jones and Scully. They broguht in several hundreds of plants in one shipment from a firm going out of business. Most of them came in with no lablels, names were put on after the fact from lists of probable suspects. There is a better than 50% chance that these plants are not really what their labels say. And the errors were made more than 30 years ago. It is an excersize in frustration trying to sort them out. If it is an old Phrag hybrid the name on the tag is Apocryphal at best. You can make a guess as to what the parents might be, but I would not assume to know anything about what it is from the tags. There are clones that obviously are Schroderae some are obvious as Calurum (synonymn Ainsworthii). If it isn't obviously one or another, I would hazzard it could very well be something else completely unrelated. There are a lot of old crosses that could be suspects. 

Post 1970's remakes from the species with some provenance - those are the only names I would more or less trust. 

Leo


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## John M (Jun 25, 2008)

I noticed that Wendy's plant seemed to be mislabelled the first time that she bloomed it. Finally, on February 5, 2008 (after Wendy shared a bit with me), I wrote to John Doherty to ask about the provinence of this plant. Here is the exchange:

"Hi John, 

I've got a question for you. This has been bothering me for a couple years now and I'd like your opinion.

A few years ago, a friend of Wendy Hoffman bought a Phrag. Albopurpureum from you at the London show....as a gift for Wendy. 

As I'm sure that you know, Albopurpureum is Dominianum x schlimii; so, I would expect a very "Schroederae" looking flower with good colour, on a fairly compact plant. Dominianum is like a pint-sized Grande; but, better looking and with better colour, in my opinion. Of course, schlimii is a small plant also. So, Albopurpureum is also on the compact side. 

However, the Albopurpureum's that you had (have?), are huge plants when well grown. Plus, the flowers don't look at all like other Albopurpureums; not resembling Schroederae at all. They look just like Calurum, which is Sedenii x longifolium. Calurum does get to huge proportions (because of the heavy longifolium influence), when well grown. Plus, Calurum is also known as Ainsworthii, which is also Sedenii x longifolium (v. roezlii).

My question to you is this: Is it possible that at some point in your plant's past, the label was originally "Ainsworthii"; but, was rewritten mistakingly as "Albopurpureum"? It wouldn't be the first time that somebody made such a mistake.....writing the wrong name down from memory. 

Thanks for your time.

Best Regards,

John Marcotte"
**********************************************************

John Doherty's reply:

"Hi John – anything’s possible! It’s an old old cross, so the odds of a transcriptional error are high. I haven’t seen enough of either to say for sure….."


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## John M (Jun 25, 2008)

In my opinion, Gilda's plant is labelled correctly, while Wendy's plant and Rick's tall one, are not. They are probably Calurum; but, figuring out exactly what a plant is, is very difficult. Figuring out what a plant is not, is much easier! These plants that are big, tall and have flowers without Schroderae-like, long petals are not Albopurpureum. There is just no way that a long, ribbon-petaled plant like Dominiamum is a direct parent of these stocky, short petaled ones.


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## Grandma M (Jun 25, 2008)

Wow. That is a 'wench-in-the-works'. 

Leo, are you saying that mine could be Schroderae. I am tempted to bellieve that is what it is. I also have Schoderae 'Monroe' and 'Clyde'. There is a very distint similarity to both of these. I sure wish I knew for sure what I have. My 'Sir Arthur' plants were bought from two different dealers in different years, but they both look alike. The $64.00 question, what are they?

Marilyn


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## NYEric (Jun 25, 2008)

Another reason to say, Yay besseae hybrids!


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## Leo Schordje (Jun 25, 2008)

Marilyn, 
I don't know which photo you are refering to when you say "'mine could be Schroderae?" - but basically I am saying if it looks like Schroderae, it probably is Schroderae, never mind what the tags say. 

I know it sounds a bit flip, but these old hybrids have been through so much history, not all of it kind to them. WW2 really disrupted all the old European collections. 

So if you have 3 of these pre WW2 hybrid plants that side by side, and they look alike, and they have 3 different names on the tags - pick the best name and put it on all 3, they may very well be divisions of the same clone. 

Leo


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## SlipperFan (Jun 25, 2008)

This is all very interesting. Wendy, see what you started?:evil:

Rick, your first one looks almost identical to mine.



NYEric said:


> Dot, I'm sure your's is Calurum v. Candidulum.


Tell me more. I've never heard of this one -- do you have any photos? Google didn't give me any.


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## Gilda (Jun 25, 2008)

This has been a very interesting discussion..here are the 2 side by side for comparison. The Albo. 'Sir Arthur' is on the left..much bigger plant, although the Schrod. is no compact grower !! The coloring is much deeper in the Albo. I took these without a flash to try and keep the colors as true as possible. I will keep mine labeled as they are. 
2 side by side






Albopurpureum 'Sir Arthur'





Schroderae


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## Wendy (Jun 25, 2008)

I'm having a great time reading this thread. Discussions like this are wonderful. Thanks everyone.


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## John M (Jun 26, 2008)

More wrenches!

Gilda, now that I see your photo of the two plants together (thank you!), I take back that I think your Albopurpureum is properly labelled. 

You see, Albopurpureum is Dominianum x schlimii. Phrag schlimii it a small growing species and Dominiamum is caudatum x caricinum. Phrag caudatum is not so big and "leafy" as your Albopurpureum.....and caricinum is a small, almost grass-like looking species. Phrag Albopurpureum isn't a large plant. It simply doesn't have the genetics for it. I'll bet that 'Sir Arthur' is an old, old awarded plant that was mislabelled either by accident or as often happened, on purpose because it looked like an Albopurpureum on steroids, even though, it wasn't Albopurpureum. Think about that famous awarded plant schlimii 'Wilcox'. It's a Cardinale (Sedenii x schlimii); but, someone pulled a fast one and called it schlimii. It looks like a giant schlimii. Unfortunately, the judges were asleep at the wheel, or they were in on the name change.....

Look at the foliage of your plants. It's lo-ooong.....like longifolium! Schroderae is Sedenii x caudatum. Phrag. caudatum is large; but, has fairly upright to arching leaves. Sedenii has long, arching, soft, strap leaves as a result of having longifolium as a parent. 

So, lets say that the one on the right is actually a Schroderae. Schroderae should be much larger than Albopurpureum with longer foliage; but, the opposite is the case with your plants. The one on the left, just by looking at it's foliage is just too big and has leaves that are too long for it to be a true Albopurpureum. It's more likely a Schroderae as well....a nice, robust one; or, it was made with Dominiamum x (schlimii) 'Wilcox', which would introduce longifolium into it's gene make-up. Or, the Dominianum parent might have been mislabelled and was actually a Grande (caudatum x longifolium). Again, more longifolium. Whatever the case is, 'Sir Arthur' seems to me to have some big, honkin' longifolium in it's family tree somewhere, because Albopurpureum isn't supposed to have anything but fairly stiff and compact growing (caudatum), genes and some miniature, almost grass-like (caricinum and schlimii), genes in it's make-up. In fact, Albopurpureum's genepool is 75% from miniature, almost grass-like growing plants. Such a monster as 'Sir Arthur' is impossible to get from that breeding.


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## Grandma M (Jun 26, 2008)

I'll confuse the issue even more.










The first blooming and the third blooming of plant # 1. It is just about to bloom for the 4th time with 2 stems.

This is what is written on the label. Albopurpurem 'Sir Arthur' AM/AOS - Dominianum X schlimii- where Domenianum = purchinem X caudatum

It was sold to me as a division.

Marilyn


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## SlipperKing (Jun 26, 2008)

So John,
Based on your discription of Albopurpurem could my second plant be a true Albopurepurem? (See foliage pictures). It has the grasslike leaves in an upright position plus the flower has the appearence of a Schroderae but smaller.




SlipperKing said:


> OK Ladies,
> Let me throw a wench-in-the-works just to give you all something to think about and discuss.
> 
> Here is a comparison of 2 of my plants both Albopurureum
> ...


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## Wendy (Jun 26, 2008)

My plant (that I bought labeled Albopurpureum)...but I think is actually Calurum...has the same flower, stem habit and leaves as the plant on the left of your picture.


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## NYEric (Jun 26, 2008)

Yes, left=Calurum.


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## Gilda (Jun 26, 2008)

This is all very confusing ! So, what is this one ?
http://ablackorchid.com/PhragAlbopurpureumSAGrp1.jpg
All my phrag growths/leaves are larger than they were when I got them, perhaps due to growing in lower light ??
The staminode is much darker in the 'Sir Arthurs', mine , Marilyn's and in this picture link . In the %25 gene pool, could a monster not be lurking ? :wink:


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## NYEric (Jun 26, 2008)

Gilda said:


> This is all very confusing ! So, what is this one ?
> http://ablackorchid.com/PhragAlbopurpureumSAGrp1.jpg



In my humble opinion, this plant, Slipperking's top plant, Grandma M's plant all Albopurpureum. The ones w/ shorter diagonal lateral petals all Calurum. I first became aware of this hybrid because a vendor had fotos of a white one, when I went and actually saw the plant it was too pink/purple for my liking so I didn't take a division.


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## SlipperKing (Jun 26, 2008)

Thanks Eric for your HO! that's what I was think'in too!


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## Gilda (Jun 26, 2008)

I agree that Rick's small grasslike foliage looks like John M's description of Albo..Grandma's foliage doesn't look small and grasslike enough IMHO..too wide and floppy according to John's description.


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## John M (Jun 26, 2008)

Yes Rick. Your second plant seems to be true Albopurpureum. Yay!!! The flower is similar to Schroderae in overall shape, with long-ish petals; but, it's smaller than Schroderae, as it should be. The foliage is bang on what it should be and the pouch has *no* "horns". 

The lack of "horns" or remnants of them on either side of the pouch opening is important here. Phrag. caudatum, caricinum and schlimii (the species in the background of Albopurpureum), have *no* horns. 

The plants labelled Albopurpureum (such as 'Sir Arthur'), that have horns on either side of the pouch must have something else in their genetic make-up. In this case, because of the long leaves, it's probably longifolium. 

I think that true Albopurpureum is quite rare because it just looks like the smaller, less vigorous, less showy, little brother of Schroderae and in order to show off, some people put the name of Albopurpureum onto their Schroderae in order to seem as if they've got a super good clone of Albopurpureum. There are a lot Schroderae out there labelled as Albopurpureum!

Rick your taller plant seems to be Calurum.

Marilyn; I've never heard of "purchinem". I'm not sure what the writer meant to say. It's hard to tell from your photos; but, there does seem to be a bit of "horn" on the flower on the left. I can't tell in the other photo. From the limited views that I have to work with here, I'd guess your 'Sir Arthur' is also a Schroderae....or better to say, I don't think that it is Albopurpureum.

Okay. Sorry Eric; but, in my humble opinion, Rick's smaller plant is Albopurpureum. You agree with me on that. However, I think that 
Gradma M's plant is likely Schoderae and this plant of Gilda's http://ablackorchid.com/PhragAlbopurpureumSAGrp1.jpg is definately not Albopurpureum. Look at those horns on the pouch. Now compare to Rick's true Albopurpureum. Albopurpureum should not have any hint of horns on the pouch rim and it should have foliage just like Rick's plant.


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## John M (Jun 26, 2008)

Also, it should be noted that in Rick's photo of his true Albopurpureum, the bud is fuzzy. This is expected because schlimii has fuzzy buds and schlimii is a direct parent, contributing half the genetic make-up. However, look at the buds on the other plants....not fuzzy. In these cases, if they are actually Schroderae, then, schlimii is a generation further back (contributing only 25% of the genetic make-up), having less influence and therefore, producing much less fuzz on the buds.


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## Phrag-Plus (Jun 27, 2008)

Very interesting discussion, this is one of the reasons that brought me into hybridization years ago to understand the transmission of genes and characteristics in that group. 

I do have a labelled Albopurpureum 'Sir Arthur' in my collection to, but always toughed than it was a Schrooderae because those 'horn'. 

I'm agreeing with John for most of his explanations, none of the 3 species used in the Albopurpureum cross has horns... Other one look’s like Calurum for me, with its distinct horn... 

My experience in Phragmipedium hybridization, (I’m exclusively work on Phrags) shows me than, we can sometime have very small but sometimes huge differences in the transmission of characteristics in the seedlings from the same seedpod (size, leaves, flowers.... ) And guess why I’d name some of my cross as "Brainteaser" and "Bamboozle "...

Marilyn, I never heard "Purchinem" neither, but I’ve seen Pulchellum = Grande x Sedenii and Porphyrum = syn. of Sedenii who can be close in the spelling...


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## SlipperKing (Jun 27, 2008)

My plant on the left, the *fake* Albopurpureum has a new name now! This fuzzless bud wonder is now Calurum!! Thank You John, Leo, Eric and etc al!!:rollhappy::clap::clap:

PS. It has the nasty habit of "climbing out of the pot". Which species contributes that? schlimii?


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## NYEric (Jun 27, 2008)

I'll have to look at my schlimii's tonight to see if they're stolonous.


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## John M (Jun 27, 2008)

"PS. It has the nasty habit of "climbing out of the pot". Which species contributes that? schlimii?"

Hmmm? This is a physical characteristic that I'm not so knowledgeable about. I don't have any longifolium to look at; but, my schlimii does have a somewhat ascending growth habit. If that characteristic was carried along into Calurum, then, just being a bigger plant, the Calurum would show this more obviously. Maybe Jean-Pierre or Leo can comment on the growth habit of longifolium and let us know what they think?


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## Phrag-Plus (Jun 28, 2008)

Hi Rick,
Some of my longifoliums are doing kind of stolons with times, like other Phrags. But never like those see in some besseae and some of its hybrids... It is the way Phrags are fighting with the environmental changes and competition in nature.

When you do your repotting, did the first new growths are doing it too? Or it is worst over time?

Some plants do it more apparently, when the mix breaks down, like they want to move out of their pot. You’ll have to find the reason why, to much water? Phrags love water but roots need to breathe too... Or the mix is too old and become anaerobic = toxic for the plant.... Or it is just a physical characteristic of your plant...


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