# Phragmipedium exstaminodium propagation.



## luis mendoza (May 27, 2011)

Hi everyone...

I'm a new member in this forum, I live in Mexico. My orchids collection is composed almost exclusively by species, some of them are slippers. The only one is blooming now is Phragmipedium exstaminodium and I'd like to propagate it by seeds sowing; actually I have experience doing that with other genus but nothing about slippers. I understand that media election could be crucial in order to get some plants. Could you please tell me your experience breeding this species or genus? I appreciate that, have a nice weekend ....

luis


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## SlipperFan (May 27, 2011)

Welcome to the forum, luis!

I'm sure there are folks here than can help with your question. Not me, though!


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## NYEric (May 27, 2011)

Welcome from NYC. IDK but you can contact Orchidbabies and ask Mr. Bailey about that.


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## tomkalina (May 28, 2011)

You won't have to do much. If it's a true exstaminodium, it will self pollinate.


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## Rick (May 28, 2011)

tomkalina said:


> You won't have to do much. If it's a true exstaminodium, it will self pollinate.




What is the frequency of self pollination Tom?

I know its certainly a possibility but I doubt it's 100% either.

Once you get seed (either by hand pollination or self pollination) Luis, you will probably get better germination success by flasking rather than sowing seed around the base of the mother plant. There are probably several recipes for flask media, and some are proprietary. The process is pretty involved so you may look for a lab near you that can flask your seed. You may check with Ecuagenera.


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## tomkalina (May 28, 2011)

Hi Rick,

According to Phragweb, the species is autogamous; i.e. it self pollinates, and every one I've owned or heard of does this. This stands to reason, because it lacks a staminode, which means it also lacks the infra-red signature (pattern) of the staminodal shield that slipper orchid pollinators are attracted to. Lacking a staminode, it would be extinct if it didn't self-pollinate.


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## Rick (May 28, 2011)

tomkalina said:


> Hi Rick,
> 
> According to Phragweb, the species is autogamous; i.e. it self pollinates, and every one I've owned or heard of does this. This stands to reason, because it lacks a staminode, which means it also lacks the infra-red signature (pattern) of the staminodal shield that slipper orchid pollinators are attracted to. Lacking a staminode, it would be extinct if it didn't self-pollinate.



However slipper species in the wild with staminodes may only get successfully pollinated one in every 100 flowers it produces over its lifetime, and they are not going extinct (except by loggers or bulldozers).

Exstaminodium, is still very rare in its range, so I doubt that every flower produced will successfully produce seed or it should be more common. 

I have heard from Earl Baily that his exstaminodium clone Gandalf does self, but I just had 2 flowers come and go on my selfing of Gandalf that didn't produce seed. Did he line breed out the selfing characteristic of was it just luck? My plant is only 3 growths,and the first blooming blasted, so maybe the selfing kicks in after multiple mature growths have been produced?


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## Shiva (May 28, 2011)

Welcome to the Forum from the wet notrheast.


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## tomkalina (May 28, 2011)

Rick,

I think the problem with in situ propagation of exstaminodium is not so much the frequency of self pollination, but the viability of the seed produced. When you have an inbred population like exstaminodium, the lack of genetic variation has to result in limited seed viability. In cases of in situ slipper orchid pollination in species having staminodes, I wouldn't be surprised if the problem was not only a declining population of plants, but also a declining number of pollinators.


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## Rick (May 28, 2011)

tomkalina said:


> Rick,
> 
> I think the problem with in situ propagation of exstaminodium is not so much the frequency of self pollination, but the viability of the seed produced. When you have an inbred population like exstaminodium, the lack of genetic variation has to result in limited seed viability. In cases of in situ slipper orchid pollination in species having staminodes, I wouldn't be surprised if the problem was not only a declining population of plants, but also a declining number of pollinators.



True. But my basic question is do you see a viable seed capsule produced with every flower produced in exstaminodium? I would be surprised if it was 100%. I can't get 100% pollination success on normal flowers I pollinate by hand.


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## luis mendoza (May 29, 2011)

Hello guys .....

I'm so glad for reading all you have wrote. I've have read before about how pollination occurs in this species. Flasking is a wonderful method and I enjoy doing that, so the most important thing in this moment is that pollination takes place ..... When does it happens?, my exstaminodium is a wild one and has two flowers (really 2 years at home), From the very beginning the idea is to multiply this wonder of the nature .... Should I practice manual pollination, when is the precise moment?

I remember Phytotechlab produces some media specially designed for slippers. Have you ever used one of them? I'm sure I could get them in Mexico. It will be a pleasure staying among you, excuse me for my english.

See you.

luis


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## Heather (May 29, 2011)

Can't help here but wanted to say Welcome!


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## Rick (May 29, 2011)

luis mendoza said:


> Hello guys .....
> 
> I'm so glad for reading all you have wrote. I've have read before about how pollination occurs in this species. Flasking is a wonderful method and I enjoy doing that, so the most important thing in this moment is that pollination takes place ..... When does it happens?, my exstaminodium is a wild one and has two flowers (really 2 years at home), From the very beginning the idea is to multiply this wonder of the nature .... Should I practice manual pollination, when is the precise moment?
> 
> ...



In general Phragmipedium flowers don't last as long as Paphiopedilum flowers, so if you want to do a manual pollination you should probably do it before the petals have reached full length. (Full petal length for my long petalled Phrags is probably about 3/4 the full life of the flower). 

I can't tell you when the flower "does" it by itself for self fertilization, but you won't be able to tell until the flower starts to wilt and falls off. If the capsule stays green over a week or so after the flower drops then it is pollinated. If the capsule turns brown a couple days after the flower drops then it is not pollinated.

However by then it would be to late to manually pollinate.

Maybe since you have 2 flowers you can manual pollinate one and leave the other to see if it self pollinates.

Can you take pictures of your exstaminodium? Do you know were your plant originated from? The amount of staminode left in each flower seems to vary a lot. Do your flowers have small remnants of staminode?


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## luis mendoza (May 29, 2011)

Hello Rick ....

My plant comes from Chiapas, Mexico. It's good to know all the data your talking about, very interesting, I actually know a few about slippers, some of the pictures I've taken are posted at Flickr. I hope to post them OK here, the fist time I use this kind of system, promise to take a better close up tomorrow morning. See you.

luis




http://www.flickr.com/photos/luismendoza/5766796268/in/photostream


http://www.flickr.com/photos/luismendoza/5766795566/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/luismendoza/5774055972/in/photostream/


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## luis mendoza (May 29, 2011)

Thanks a lot Heather, I'll be over here.


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## Rick (May 30, 2011)

Wow those are pretty dark flowers Luis!

I need to send you a link for a paper I found on exstaminodium. It is in Spanish, and I haven't been able to get a good translation so far on some key points. 

If you do a search on this site, you can find some threads on exstaminodium for plants we have bloomed ourselves (including myself less than a month ago).


http://www2.ine.gob.mx/publicaciones.../534/cap10.pdf Here's the link to a paper that might be good to read (and maybe help us translate better than the computer)

Rats it doesn't seem to work any more. I may have to scan and send it to you.


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## Rick (May 30, 2011)

http://www2.ine.gob.mx/publicaciones/libros/534/cap10.pdf

Try this. In particular there is a section called "relevance of the species" that I am very interested in. I did get a partial translation on another section that suggests that capsule production per flower produced is pretty high by self pollinating mechanisms, but that seed germination is low. ( I found another paper that looked at germination rates of 3 different Phrag species and germination for exstaminodium can be about 3%).


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## luis mendoza (May 31, 2011)

Rick said:


> http://www2.ine.gob.mx/publicaciones/libros/534/cap10.pdf
> 
> Try this. In particular there is a section called "relevance of the species" that I am very interested in. I did get a partial translation on another section that suggests that capsule production per flower produced is pretty high by self pollinating mechanisms, but that seed germination is low. ( I found another paper that looked at germination rates of 3 different Phrag species and germination for exstaminodium can be about 3%).



Hi Rick...

Yes, I know this interesting item, I translated the chapter "Relevance of the species". Thanks a lot, see you.

luis


Relevance of the species.

Phragmipedium genus was reported in Mexico in the 1960’s. It was considered then like P. caudatum, a species described at first in Perú. In 1984 it was described as new species, scientists emphasized that mexican species don't have staminode a sign of all the species in this genus.  In 1998, Atwood and Dressler proposed that in Central America, there was only one species of the P. caudatum complex, giving life again and describing a name that had been dobtuful and lilltle known, P. humboldtii, and including here plants at first considered like P. warscewiczianum Rchb. f. ( Hamer 1985). These scientists determined that population without staminode from México is very similar in relation to plants found in Guatemala, some of which have a perfect staminode, others have a distorted one an some others don´t have any. In view of this, it seems better considering P. exstaminodium like a P. humboldtii subspecies.

Phragmipedium humboldtii, exstaminodium susbsp. has a high value for conservation, it was considered by the UCIN like "The plant of the 1998 year", and like a symbol for the plant conservation projects during that period. It also is into the CITES appendix I.


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## Rick (May 31, 2011)

Thanks Luis.

That point of the variability of staminode structure was a big debate about the validity of present known plants as being "true" exstaminodium. This document would suggest that exstaminodium can have a wide range of fragmentary to almost complete staminodes.

I was able to pick out some bits and pieces on the rate of self pollination which seems pretty high. If you find that section could you translate that too?

Where in Mexico are you? Highlands or lowlands?


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## luis mendoza (May 31, 2011)

Rick said:


> Thanks Luis.
> 
> That point of the variability of staminode structure was a big debate about the validity of present known plants as being "true" exstaminodium. This document would suggest that exstaminodium can have a wide range of fragmentary to almost complete staminodes.
> 
> ...





You're welcome Rick .....

Maybe the next lines are the piece you're talking about. If they are not, please send that piece. I'm in Uruapan Michoacán:

Uruapan Mich., Mex.
Altura 1634m SNMM
Latitud 19°24'56" N 
Longitud 102° 03' 46" W

See you.

luis




The number of individuals isn’t related with the lack of reproductive succes, seeds production is so high because of the autopollination mechanism of the flowers. In the cenote population, at least 9 plants produced seeds in 1989 and there is no evidence that pods production could be different in other years, because it was posible to observe the remainings of the previous year in a similar number of individuals. We think that low population number is related with the lack or low germination rate or because of a high mortality at the plantelet stage.


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