# Cymbidium goeringii 'Tian Cao'



## Happypaphy7 (Mar 23, 2015)

My lazy watering blasted all but one bud over the summer, and the lone survivor is open now. 
It would have been amazing with all 7 flowers open. oh, well. 
next year.

The flower is strongly scented, but can't describe it. It is neither good nor bad. Ok, slightly good.


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## Ozpaph (Mar 23, 2015)

very unusual, and pretty


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## NYEric (Mar 23, 2015)

Looks like it has white edges on the leaves. Can you post a photo of the foliage, thanks.


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## Shiva (Mar 23, 2015)

Very nice!


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## SlipperFan (Mar 23, 2015)

Interesting splashes.


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## abax (Mar 23, 2015)

Where did you find this lovely plant? I emailed an ebay
grower and he/she was very terse and wouldn't give me
any information as to the color of the ensifoliums offered.
I'd appreciate any leads you can give me.


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## Happypaphy7 (Mar 24, 2015)

NYEric said:


> Looks like it has white edges on the leaves. Can you post a photo of the foliage, thanks.



How many more leaves do you want to see, Eric? 
There are plenty in this photo! hahaha

Well, the cream colored variegation appears near the tip along with the edge. That is typical of Tain Cao.
Also, any goeringii with this variegation will also have variegated flowers.

There are a whole bunch of terms describing subtle differences in color and pattern and shape of the leaves and flowers in these cymbidiums, but I have no idea if they even exit in English. Here these are no where as popular as they are in the Far East.


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## Happypaphy7 (Mar 24, 2015)

abax said:


> Where did you find this lovely plant? I emailed an ebay
> grower and he/she was very terse and wouldn't give me
> any information as to the color of the ensifoliums offered.
> I'd appreciate any leads you can give me.



I bought this from Ten Shin Gardens at a show last year. 
They come from Taiwan and usually bring a lot of these Far East cymbidiums for great price.

These are highly sought after in the Far East and quite expensive. Some are beyond believe how expensive they get.

Check the website of Ten Shin Gardens. There are many pictures of different cymbidiums, goeringii, sinense, ensifolium...
They have more than what it shows on the website. so if you have a specific name, you can ask them. but what they list on their website is quite extensive for many people here I believe.


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## jokerpass (Apr 6, 2020)

How is the Cymbidium goeringii TianCao (Amakusa)? 

Cymbidium goeringii in Chinese/Japanese is the Spring Orchid. In the normal biological cycle of a Cymbidium goeringii, the buds are induced/set in the middle of the summer. By early Sept to the end of October, you should be able to see the flower buds peaking out from the top of the pot (about 3-5cm). Then, the flower buds go into dormancy until Winter Solstice. After Winter Solstice, the plants are grown in an ultra low temperature, between 0C-14C (30F-50F) for a period of time (basically just above freezing) so the flower buds will develop properly. The instructions in both Chinese and Japanese books indicate that when you see buds in the summer, you should get rid off the flower buds because the off-season flowers actually weaken the orchids. Here are a couple pictures of Japanese Cymbidium goeringii in my personal collection.

FYI: Tenshin usually bring 2nd/3rd tier varieties that are not collectable to me. As a Chinese, I will never consider any of the varieties he brings. For Chinese Cymbidium goeringii, there are 8 traditional varieties discovered from the Shanghai and Zhejiang Province that are truly classics have withstand time for 200-300 years and are appreciated generation after generation. 

I did some research on Cymbidium goeringii 天草 TianCao (Amakusa) that is quite popular in Europe and North America. The Chinese reading for 天草 is TianCao, and the Japanese reading for 天草 is Amakusa. First, this is a Japanese Cymbidium goeringii, from the City of Amakusa. I cannot find information/description of this clone anywhere in any of my Japanese Cymbidium goeringii books, so I suspect that it is just named after the city of Amakusa, implying that there is nothing too outstanding about this clone. There is another Japanese clone called Amakusa-Nisshin (天草日進), both clones look very similar both in flower and the leaves. However, Amakusa-Nisshin is bigger (longer leaf length) and taller flower stem, and has a much bigger flower. When I visited a Japanese Cymbidium goeringii nursery in Japan, compared both clones side by side and Amakusa-Nishhin is far more superior clone than Amakusa. Amakusa-Nisshin is a more majestic clone than Amakusa in my opinion.


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## Guldal (Apr 8, 2020)

Jokerpass, you should definately take up on BrucherT's proposal and write, that book in english on _growing_ Cymbidiums!

You can already put me on the list for a signed copy of the 1st edition!


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## Happypaphy7 (Apr 18, 2020)

I gave it away long ago.
Yes, this is about the most common varieties offered in the trade it seems. The fact that it is so common and so cheap means it is not for the cymbidium goeringii collectors. It is a great for a beginner as a practice piece I'd say.
It has its charm, but as you say, there are MANY fine varieties of this species out there. And of course, with anything collectable, it's a rich man's game if you want the best. I'd love a fine yellow flowered variety of the species but I wouldn't pay quarter million dollars for plants of any kind.


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## jokerpass (Apr 18, 2020)

In Japan, retail price for blooming size C. goeringii (6-10 growths), I would call them traditional classic varieties (all the classic red, orange, yellow varieties), nothing fancy, would cost you anywhere from $250-$500 USD for the plant. That is just how much they cost. I have seen plenty of $30-$50 USD C. goeringii in Tokyo Dome show but they are medium seedings (will take 2-3 years to bloom). Those are cheap, but I don't get those.

Below is a new Korean variety called En-kou-zetsu (円紅舌). This variety has all the desirable trait you want in a C. goeringii (current trend). It has round petals, splashy colour (like a waterpainting), and a very dark purple lip. Lastly, it has Chabo leaf (thich waxy, short leaf 10-15cm max). A 3 growth noplants was in this year's special display and it was estimated at $110,000 USD!!!


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## Guldal (Apr 19, 2020)

Amazing! And what the price pertains: chocking!


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## Linus_Cello (Apr 19, 2020)

“Traditional” cymbidiums are mericloned. Can these be mass produced as well?


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## Happypaphy7 (Apr 20, 2020)

Linus_Cello said:


> “Traditional” cymbidiums are mericloned. Can these be mass produced as well?


I'm not sure, but I would say yes. but those rare varieties with odd variegations or other rare mutations may not come out true when mericloned kind of like Neofinetia falcata. Also, even if it is possible to mericlone them, I don't think it would be done. The collectors and the close net association/societies in Japan and South Korea won't allow that to happen. It's their privilege. Trust me. haha


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## Happypaphy7 (Apr 20, 2020)

Guldal said:


> Amazing! And what the price pertains: chocking!


If you go sit in one of the auctions in Japan or South Korea, you would pass out at how much money is being poured on these plants! hahaha
but then again, it is how life is. Not everyone can drive Aston Martin or carry crocodile Hermes Burkin bag.


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## jokerpass (Apr 21, 2020)

In the old days (1960s), it is not possible to mericlone Asian Cymbidiums, so the only way to propagate them is by division. Then, the mericlone and flasking technology comes to light, then there is a market crash for Asian Cymbidiums. This is especially the case for C. ensifolium and C. sinense in Taiwan. C. ensifolium and C. sinese are dirt cheap in Taiwan, you can get a blooming size multiple growth for $15USD (retail price, whole sale is cheaper). Now for C. goeringii, doesn't matter where you purchase them, it is pricy for whatever reason compared with C. ensifolium and C. sinense (for blooming size only, min 6-7 growths. I don't buy medium seedling, takes too long to grow and often have weak root system). Even for C. goeringii that are from flasking, it can still be in the hundreds of dollars if you want a blooming size plant. Having said that, yes, the C. goeringii variety that are produced from flasking will have very similar characeteristics as the original plant but it is still not the same (some have huge differences, some have minute difference). For example, Chinese C. goeringii 宋梅 Songmei (Ch reading)/Soubai (Jp reading), one of my favourite Chinese C. goeringii with round petals (plum petals), 99% of the ones you see one the market is from flasking. I have seen some plants from flasking, the leaf width is too wide. Another example is Chinese C. goeringii 緑雲 Lu-yun (Ch reading)/Ryoku-un (Jp reading), with short wide leaf with 6 plus flower petals. It is the Queen of Chinese C. goeingii and it is notorious in been difficult in cultivation. This variety was flasked by the Koreans so 99% of the plant you see on the market is again from flasks. The real C. goeringii 緑雲 Lu-yun (Ch reading)/Ryoku-un (Jp reading) is passed down in the family who discovered it. it is a passed down as a family heirloom and it is not for sale. The advantage of the plants from flasking is that most of them will be easier to grow in the cultivation and the price is in the range for hobbyists (still going to run a few hundred dollars for blooming size plants).




宋梅 Chinese C. goeringii Songmei (Ch reading)/Soubai (Jp reading)






Chinese C. goeringii 緑雲 (Ch reading lu-yun)/(Jp reading ryoku-un)


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## BrucherT (Apr 22, 2020)

Someone present talk about kanran? And mixes?


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## jokerpass (Apr 22, 2020)

BrucherT: C. karan can be grown using the same Japanese pumice (東洋蘭土）. Very similar set up, once the surface of the potting mix is dry, water. The buds like C. goeringii are induced at the end of July and early August. For varieties that buds later in the fall, the daynight temp difference of 10-15C will help. To get the bright flower colour, during flower stem elongation, make sure that the temp is low. If the temp is too high, then the colour will not be nice. C. kanran blooms in December-January in Japan, so once you see the flower buds poking out in the fall, you only need to wait for 2-3 months before it blooms. C. kanran is easiser than C. goeringii because it doesn't require a vernalization period to bloom (vernalization is the agricultural term for low low temp treatment for flower bud development). For C. karan, it means winter orchid because it blooms in winter, not because it grows cold. If you follow C. goeringii culture, you will be able to grow and bloom C. karan.


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## Guldal (Apr 23, 2020)

Incredibly beautifull goeringii photos! Thx for sharing!


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## Ozpaph (Apr 23, 2020)

im enjoying this discussion a lot. thank-you.


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## Happypaphy7 (Apr 24, 2020)

In Korea, the habitat of both C.goeringii and C.kanran overlap. C.kanran only occurs in one island in the farthest south while C.goeringii occurs in pretty much all over the South Korea due to global warming. Their northern most range was much lower in the past. 
The winter day average temperature in C.kanran habitat is around 3C (37.4F). So, they do have pretty cold winter months. It also snows a lot in their habitat. Interestingly, the summer is cooler in the kanran habitat due to ocean current.
So, in short, goeringii withstand lower winter temperature and higher summer temperature a little better. 
Under cultivation, both species will grow perfectly fine given that the growing conditions is focused on the requirements of kanran.


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## BrucherT (Apr 24, 2020)

Happypaphy7 said:


> In Korea, the habitat of both C.goeringii and C.kanran overlap. C.kanran only occurs in one island in the farthest south while C.goeringii occurs in pretty much all over the South Korea due to global warming. Their northern most range was much lower in the past.
> The winter day average temperature in C.kanran habitat is around 3C (37.4F). So, they do have pretty cold winter months. It also snows a lot in their habitat. Interestingly, the summer is cooler in the kanran habitat due to ocean current.
> So, in short, goeringii withstand lower winter temperature and higher summer temperature a little better.
> Under cultivation, both species will grow perfectly fine given that the growing conditions is focused on the requirements of kanran.



I’m eating up this thread. What about potting mix(es) please? Thank you.


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## Happypaphy7 (Apr 24, 2020)

BrucherT said:


> I’m eating up this thread. What about potting mix(es) please? Thank you.



In Korea and Japan where these plants are common and very popular, the potting mix are also common. I have not seen any of the same stuff here in the US. I'm not quite sure what exactly they are in English, but they are light tan and very light weight. Pumice perhaps? not sure.
It comes in three sizes for layering inside those long slender pot typically used for Asian Cymbidiums. Largest particle at the bottom, then medium sized particle in the middle, then finished with the smallest grade at the top third or so. Now this is the most basic and many people follow this although some people come up with their own variations. 

However, any other orchid mix should work and they don't have to be potted in tall slender pots unless you are going to compete at shows in the Far East. haha. Any well draining potting mix will do.


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## jokerpass (Apr 25, 2020)

The potting mix used for all Asian Cymbidiums is called Asian Cymbidium potting mix 東洋蘭土 (Touyouran tsuchi). The translation is touyouran = Asian Cymbidiums, and tsuchi = soil. This mix is composed of 3 pumices/soil which is kanuma (鹿沼土), akadama (赤玉土), and satsuma (薩摩土). This mix provides the perfect pH, perfect aeration for the roots, correct balance of wetness/moisture for the whole root system, and provides stickiness to the root system. This is the only mix I use for all my C. goeringii, cannot use anything else (I did a litle summer project many years ago, and this is the only potting material that worked). You use anything else, C. goeringii will decline and die. In other mixes, C. goeringii won't grow because it won't roots. Even if it grows roots, the roots won't stick/attach to the potting mix. I purchased the Asian Cymbidium mix directly from Japan, not avaiable in North America.


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