# Submitting plants recently purchased in bloom: ethical or unethical?



## kentuckiense (Oct 16, 2007)

The title says it all, really. To me, an AOS award is as much about your ability to get the plant to bloom as it is the actual quality of the bloom, so I say that submitting plants purchased in bloom/spike is unethical. Counterpoint? Other opinions?


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## bwester (Oct 16, 2007)

I very much agree. A grower's skill should be an integral part of any award.


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## Mark (Oct 16, 2007)

Depends on the award, really. Flower quality awards really "belong" to the plant and its breeder in a way, culture awards to the grower.


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## littlefrog (Oct 16, 2007)

It depends on how you represent yourself. It is unethical to submit a plant with the intention of having it judged for culture, if you haven't been responsible for its culture. Quality awards (HCC, AM, FCC) are awards to the plant, not you. If you want to take credit for it, blame it on your excellent skills at picking plants to buy.

Excellent flowers should be recognized regardless of who grew the plant. If they aren't, how am I (as a judge) supposed to know what I'm comparing the next plant to? The more plants we look at, the better the standards become, and the better we can evaluate the next generation of breeding.


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## Hien (Oct 16, 2007)

Mark said:


> Depends on the award, really. Flower quality awards really "belong" to the plant and its breeder in a way, culture awards to the grower.



I kind of agree w/ Mark.
1) The FCC, AM,HCC is really about the flower so it belongs to the plant no matter what. Although it is true partially of what Zach said, If the owner is not a good grower(as myself) and just buy the plant then he/she may not be able to reach the flower quality as awarded again .
If the person actually makes the cross with his/her own parents stock plants then he/she can be proud of the result (even if it is awarded for flower quality).
2) the culture award is really about the grower.


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## paphioland (Oct 16, 2007)

I totally disagree. The quality award is about the potential and genetics of the plant. It is supposed to provide some objective value to the plant so people know the quality of the bloom. It has nothing to do with culture. IT just shows that this plant has this potential. So to label something as unethical is a heavy statement and is attacking the character of the person doing it. Please specify why you think it is unethical. Is it wrong in a moral sense? I don't think it is. Does it represent an fundamental untruth? Absolutely not. The award does not require you to bloom it and is not the nature of the award. Is it harmful to others? No I think it theoretically helps set standards that help breeding goals.

By your logic then once a plant with an award is sold the award should be voided. 

I totally disagree with your statement. That is why there are awards of quality


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## paphioland (Oct 16, 2007)

Actually you could say that it is unethical or not in the best interest of the orchid community not to take an awardable plant to judging and keep it all to yourself. When people do this they do not let others know the true standard and breeding trends in the world of orchids.

I do not believe this because I don't take good plants all the time. This is just for argument sake.


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## Candace (Oct 16, 2007)

> The quality award is about the potential and genetics of the plant. It is supposed to provide some objective value to the plant so people know the quality of the bloom. It has nothing to do with culture.



You really believe quality awarded plants(HCC, AM, FCC) have nothing to do with culture? I agree those awards are for the plant, but there's no way the plant will be awarded without good culture. Awards are upgraded all the time due to someone having better growing culture for that blooming cycle.

Zach has raised a good question. I don't think it's unethical, but I don't have any special respect per se for someone who's bought a plant in bloom and brought it in for judging and received an award. As a matter of fact, most good orchid growers I socialize with snicker and whisper about those who do this.


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## Heather (Oct 16, 2007)

I have to say, I agree with the quality vs. cultural award system. 

That said, our society has a rule about our SHOW table that you must have a plant in your possession to have it judged for at least six months (you can show it but will not get a ribbon). 

While it is just show and tell, and encouragement to bring plants in for people to see, we do have a pointing system for our ribbons and the person with the most points at the end of the year wins an award and graduates from "hobbiest" to "advanced" or "advanced" to "expert" status.

I actually think it is a very good system - third place = 1 pt. 2nd place = 2pts, 1st place = 3 points, and if you deserve a cultural award, you get a first AND a 4pt. "grower's commendation" ribbon. 

Ironically, my two greatest competitors growing the Cypripedium alliance in my society were both just moved out of my way to win. But now I have no plants to show! :sob: I'm just going to have to keep that Mexipedium of mine in one piece! 

*edit* I agree with Candace in that I would have less respect for people in my society who brought in blooming plants they just bought at Home Depot and got pointed ribbons when they had no participation in growing that plant.


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## Heather (Oct 16, 2007)

One more edit - I made a rule with myself that I only bring the Mex. for the show table on each NEW blooming - you cannot bring a plant 6 months in a row and get away with that either!

I have not yet decided whether or not I will show it at the MOS show in 2 weeks. I did get it ribboned at an MOS meeting last Spring. Actually, this is the first time I realized I still could. It has been blooming since April! It's a great educational plant, though, and one I like to encourage others to grow, so I like to show it off!


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## paphioland (Oct 16, 2007)

how do u know it is not just a bigger plant? why does it have to be culture?

I care about potential of a plant period. Unless you have a huge greenhouse and can bloom hundreds of the same plant it is hard to get fcc quality plants, actually it is damn unlikely. It is also not cost effective. To be honest growing is not as hard as finding good genetics. Should I bloom 50000 lowiis so I can find an album??

Most people I socialize with care about quality because that is key when it comes to hybridizing. Quality on small plants that says alot about the potential of a plant.

actually I do not pretend to be some super grower. I have never gotten a plant from the OZ and not had it get better as it gets bigger as Terry sells his plants usually one growth and maybe a start. Like that Heryanum got much bigger on its second bloom. One of my roths got thicker. My point is as a plant matures the flowers get better unless your culture is horrible.

Regardless it is not unethical


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## paphioland (Oct 16, 2007)

Candace said:


> You really believe quality awarded plants(HCC, AM, FCC) have nothing to do with culture? I agree those awards are for the plant, but there's no way the plant will be awarded without good culture. Awards are upgraded all the time due to someone having better growing culture for that blooming cycle.
> 
> Zach has raised a good question. I don't think it's unethical, but I don't have any special respect per se for someone who's bought a plant in bloom and brought it in for judging and received an award. As a matter of fact, most good orchid growers I socialize with snicker and whisper about those who do this.



I didn't say it doesn't but it is much easier to find adequate culture than fcc quality genetic plants. The OZ has awesome stuff but those are the best out of hundreds sometimes. Most of the plants especially hybrids aren't fcc quality. Is Terry a good grower??? He is the best I know with some of the best genetics and still most plants are not award quality.


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## Candace (Oct 16, 2007)

> The OZ has awesome stuff but those are the best out of hundreds sometimes. Most of the plants especially hybrids aren't all that fantastic. Is Terry a good grower??? He is the best I know with some of the best genetics and still most plants are not award quality.



Interesting...


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## Rick Barry (Oct 16, 2007)

I'm reminded of Kay Rinaman, a longtime grower here in the Bay Area who passed away a few years back. She was a bit of a legend hereabouts for her ability to spot an awardable plant among dozens of also-rans. She was highly regarded in the orchid growing community for a talent that seemed almost inexplicable to even the most experienced growers and breeders. She would have been foolish not to exercise an ability that few of us possess. 

The practice of submitting plants for judging that were purchased in bloom has long standing in the orchid community. It happens far more often than most of us realize. Some breeders don't even bother taking their plants for judging, due to the efforts required, or even out of a lack of respect for the judging system. In such a case, I think it is far preferable that someone, anyone, take exceptional plants where they can be viewed and evaluated. 

Regards,
Rick


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## kentuckiense (Oct 16, 2007)

Interesting discussion!

I agree that "unethical" is probably too harsh of a word. I'm not known for my ways with words. In addition, I certainly did not make the original post to be passive-aggressive towards anyone, don't worry. I just thought that it's an interesting topic of debate.


I think Candace summed up my feelings best:



Candace said:


> Zach has raised a good question. I don't think it's unethical, but I don't have any special respect per se for someone who's bought a plant in bloom and brought it in for judging and received an award. As a matter of fact, most good orchid growers I socialize with snicker and whisper about those who do this.


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## neo-guy (Oct 16, 2007)

All are correct when referring to the AOS quality award, that the award is for the flower. Although most flowers that get awarded have culture as a factor, it still does not matter if the plant was just purchased or owned for a period of time.

For ribbon judging and most society displays, there is usually a requirement that the person has grown it for a period of time. The ribbon is often both for the plant and the grower.

The AOS quality award is meant to recognize the flower, and that clonal name and award stays with it forever. I see no ethical issues if one purchases a plant and it receives an AOS award.

Hope that helps,
Peter.


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## Heather (Oct 16, 2007)

Perhaps some of the language used repeatedly as of late led to this discussion...


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## paphioland (Oct 16, 2007)

Rick Barry said:


> I'm reminded of Kay Rinaman, a longtime grower here in the Bay Area who passed away a few years back. She was a bit of a legend hereabouts for her ability to spot an awardable plant among dozens of also-rans. She was highly regarded in the orchid growing community for a talent that seemed almost inexplicable to even the most experienced growers and breeders. She would have been foolish not to exercise an ability that few of us possess.
> 
> The practice of submitting plants for judging that were purchased in bloom has long standing in the orchid community. It happens far more often than most of us realize. Some breeders don't even bother taking their plants for judging, due to the efforts required, or even out of a lack of respect for the judging system. In such a case, I think it is far preferable that someone, anyone, take exceptional plants where they can be viewed and evaluated.
> 
> ...



I agree with this.

All the award says is that this plant is capable of this quality. Again by others logic the award should be taken away when it gets another owner. So every one who gets awards are great growers?? I think it is kind of silly to snicker over something so ridiculous. The goal of judging is the quality of the flower not the owner.

I guess people have different emphasis on their hobby. Seems many of you are concerned with growing. I am much more concerned with hybridizing and genetics than growing. I care about culture but that is not the goal of my collecting. I care about my eye and ability to someday create great crosses. Also just to behold something that pleases my eye. To see beauty.

I am sure many people are good growers but there are only a few great hybridizers. Maybe hybridizers should not be allowed to use pollen from flowers they have not grown from seed.
*
DOES EVERYONE GROW THEIR PLANTS FROM FLASK???? How many people here have ever awarded a plant grown from flask?? Better yet of their own breeding. We all know it is hardest to grow plants from flask and to hybridize quality crosses. If you haven't done both these things isn't it unethical to get an award on a plant you have not grown through its most difficult phase and had no part in creating its genetics????????*


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## kentuckiense (Oct 17, 2007)

paphioland said:


> Again by others logic the award should be taken away when it gets another owner.



We aren't talking about just buying a plant, we're talking about buying a plant in bloom and then having it judged. Nobody here is arguing that awards should be removed when plants change hands, and from reading the thread, I'm not sure where you even got that notion from.


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## kentuckiense (Oct 17, 2007)

Also, as I mentioned before, "unethical" was a poor word choice as nobody is being hurt. I defer to Candace's first post in this thread to sum up my feelings on the subject.


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## Candace (Oct 17, 2007)

> I guess people have different emphasis on their hobby. Seems many of you are concerned with growing. I am much more concerned with hybridizing and genetics than growing.



True. I would like a reputation in the orchid community as a good grower, not a great "buyer" or someone with deep pockets.


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## paphioland (Oct 17, 2007)

kentuckiense said:


> We aren't talking about just buying a plant, we're talking about buying a plant in bloom and then having it judged. Nobody here is arguing that awards should be removed when plants change hands, and from reading the thread, I'm not sure where you even got that notion from.



But it makes sense right if you use the same thought pattern? Why should someone get the plant never have bloomed it themselves and have an awarded plant. Shouldn't they have to bloom the plant again and not only bloom it but up to award quality?


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## kentuckiense (Oct 17, 2007)

paphioland said:


> But it makes sense right if you use the same thought pattern? Why should someone get the plant never have bloomed it themselves and have an awarded plant. Shouldn't they have to bloom the plant again and not only bloom it but up to award quality?



What thought pattern? Look back a few posts. I accept that HCC/AM/FCC are solely based on flower quality. I've said twice now that my original post was poorly worded and not thought out well and that Candace's first post best summed up my views. Essentially, I don't see the "fun" in buying plants in bloom and then having those blooms awarded. However, as you pointed out, we all focus on different aspects of orchids culture, so to each their own.


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## paphioland (Oct 17, 2007)

I am not going to get into names but I know many of the best growers in world do this often. It aids in breeding and profit for them. If they buy a plant for breeding it makes sense to get it awarded so that when they breed with it the cross will be worth more. Unless u are someone like Terry who already has the reputation of being an outstanding hybridizer and doesnt need awards. The divisions of the plants also are easier to sell. 

I personally care little about judging but it does help add validity in the mind of the public to a cross's potential.


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## paphioland (Oct 17, 2007)

Candace said:


> True. I would like a reputation in the orchid community as a good grower, not a great "buyer" or someone with deep pockets.



I would like to someday be a great hybridizer and bloom my own crosses. To do this I hope to cont to develop my "eye" and see as many plants of a cross as I can. To do this you also need great genetics. I don't have the time to grow out hundreds of each cross and select the best. I have a demanding full time job. This is my passion and hobby. I don't want to make it into work.


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## bwester (Oct 17, 2007)

Hella good thread, Zach.


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## Ernie (Oct 17, 2007)

I agree that AOS flower quality awards can most certainly be awarded to plants fresh off the sales table. Just means you have a good eye! The judging handbook states that a plant considered for *cultural awards* must have been in the growers care for... six months is it? 

Our local OS requires a plant be bloomed by the grower for the monthly meeting ribbon judging. I like that idea because there, it's more about the grower and not the plant. 

-Ernie


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## paphioland (Oct 17, 2007)

kentuckiense said:


> What thought pattern? Look back a few posts. I accept that HCC/AM/FCC are solely based on flower quality. I've said twice now that my original post was poorly worded and not thought out well and that Candace's first post best summed up my views. Essentially, I don't see the "fun" in buying plants in bloom and then having those blooms awarded. However, as you pointed out, we all focus on different aspects of orchids culture, so to each their own.



I think this difference all stems from you putting alot of value in awarding. 
To base your "fun" on blooming a plant and then getting it awarded is not what is fun for me.

Sometimes I get the itch to take a plant to get awarded because the process is kind of exciting like gambling at a casino. Lots of anticipation and sometimes you get to see some great paphs and interesting commentary. THat process is exciting for me.

I have only gotten a plant I have not bloomed awarded once. But even if I had more often I wouldn't care. I know the quality of each of my paphs. I definitely don't need awards to certify my growing ability.


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## NYEric (Oct 17, 2007)

I don't see any problem in taking a superior plant to judging no matter how/when it is obtained. If it's superior and not seen [taken to judging], how will the standard be raised? If you feel guilty about having a purchased in bloom plant awarded name it after the grower! Personally I don't take plants in for judging although next year maybe...


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## Hien (Oct 17, 2007)

Ernie said:


> I agree that AOS flower quality awards can most certainly be awarded to plants fresh off the sales table. Just means you have a good eye! The judging handbook states that a plant considered for *cultural awards* must have been in the growers care for... six months is it?
> 
> Our local OS requires a plant be bloomed by the grower for the monthly meeting ribbon judging. I like that idea because there, it's more about the grower and not the plant.
> 
> -Ernie



-My sentiment is that there is no harm to take a plant (that you grow or buy) for an award .If they don't, we will never be awared of such plants exist (although I never did either, unless they create a new award category for the successively growing smaller plant, I can keep most of my compots in bonsai size forever:rollhappy:.) 
Some growers do enter to validate the plants potential (just as paphioland mentioned) and not as an ego strip.
That said, if you give me an awarded plant, I can reduce that plant to non-awarded status in no time.:sob:


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## slippertalker (Oct 17, 2007)

I understand both sides of this argument. There is a large amount of accomplishment growing plants from flask and having them recognized as superior. Along with the genetics involved, a plant needs the best culture possible to show off to the best of it's ability. In my opinion the best flowers are a combination of breeding and culture.

Regarding purchasing plants of award quality then receiving awards. I have never done this myself, but I'm sure it is done especially from certain wholesalers. Many of the winners at the Tokyo Dome show are purchased from Terry at OZ and others, and receive JOGA awards and also monetary awards. For these people, spending a big pile of money for an exceptional plant then having it awarded can produce a net profit. I don't perceive this as honorable or particularly ethical, but it isn't against the rules of the game.


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## tocarmar (Oct 17, 2007)

I am trying to understand this thread. As I have never brought a plant for judging. I might be bring 1 this month I buy my plants off of e-bay or through growers websites. Beign that I also breed most of the lady slippers that I buy. I like them to be in sheath. I try not to buy them in bloom beacause the pollen is better within the first 4-5 days of beign open. So it grows on to flower with my care for the month or so until it opens. Now, my Question.. I bought the plant from a seller/ reseller weather or not they flowered it before (could be a 1st bloom seedling, or a 10 growth speciman). I would like to take it to be judged as the flower is an exceptional example of the species/hybrid. Is this O.K.??

Tom


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## paphioland (Oct 17, 2007)

Of course it is OK. Don't listen to others do what you want. It is perfectly within the rules. There is nothing unethical or dishonarable about it. It will be a good experience for you also. It can be exciting. If you believe in awards all plants should be evaluated if possible.


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## NYEric (Oct 17, 2007)

It's unethical and wrong and you will be damned w/ the Democrats! :evil: oke:


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## NYEric (Oct 17, 2007)

Sorry, I couldn't resist. :rollhappy:



Hien said:


> That said, if you give me an awarded plant, I can reduce that plant to non-awarded status in no time.:sob:



Umm..there's this flavum Phrag St. Ouen oke:


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## Candace (Oct 17, 2007)

> I would like to take it to be judged as the flower is an exceptional example of the species/hybrid. Is this O.K.??


 There are no rules against entering a plant you bought in bloom. For me, there would be no pleasure in the award since I would feel like I didn't earn it, the grower did. I guess that's what it's all about. For me, I've earned my awards and have deserved them. But it's all about what is your end goal.


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## tocarmar (Oct 17, 2007)

Yes, I believe in the award sytem. Plants /flowers & culture awards they all for me anyways goes back to the initial thing that is beign judged,, the flower. Yes the culture & genetics all play a part in its growth to ultimitaly bloom. It should not matter who grew it longer, it is the 1 that saw the beauty of it to bring it to be judged. (I think all of them should be judged)LOL
But, if a person is selling, say a rock, & the buyer buys the rock & gets it judged as a diamond who is the 1 responsible to receive the award the seller or buyer!!

Tom


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## Candace (Oct 17, 2007)

> That said, if you give me an awarded plant, I can reduce that plant to non-awarded status in no time.


 Hein, I can't tell you how much I enjoy your honesty and humor. You remind me of a good friend that used to be a member of my OS before he moved away. I passed him one evening at a meeting and asked' "How's the orchids?" I fully expected a great or fine...and I loved his answer. He said, "Killing them left and right!!" We had a good laugh. We all have casualties but so many people don't like to admit that. I find it refreshing you've got such a good attitude.


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## Hien (Oct 17, 2007)

NYEric said:


> Sorry, I couldn't resist. :rollhappy:
> 
> 
> 
> Umm..there's this flavum Phrag St. Ouen oke:



Eric, that plant is not awarded yet.
If it grows, I cut you a piece, and you can enter the plant for judging.
In fact, If I remember correctly, maybe Lien gave a piece of this one to both Blake & Zach?
Did Lien, Blake, or Zach ever enter it?


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## Candace (Oct 17, 2007)

> But, if a person is selling, say a rock, & the buyer buys the rock & gets it judged as a diamond who is the 1 responsible to receive the award the seller or buyer!!



No one "grows" a rock. No culture or work required.


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## NYEric (Oct 17, 2007)

Hien said:


> If it grows,


That's what I'm worried aboutoke: 


Hien said:


> In fact, If I remember correctly, maybe Lien gave a piece of this one to both Blake & Zach?
> Did Lien, Blake, or Zach ever enter it?


I don't think so; but didn't Blake sell you his?


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## kentuckiense (Oct 17, 2007)

Hien said:


> In fact, If I remember correctly, maybe Lien gave a piece of this one to both Blake & Zach?
> Did Lien, Blake, or Zach ever enter it?



If I remember correctly, Lien had a whole batch of sibs that bloomed out fully flavum. Thus, what we all have are sibs and not divisions. I'm hoping mine will bloom in a few months.


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## Hien (Oct 17, 2007)

NYEric said:


> That's what I'm worried aboutoke:
> 
> I don't think so; but didn't Blake sell you his?


 Yes, I will try my best. honest.


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## paphioland (Oct 17, 2007)

Again the award is not about earning, it is about the potential of the plants genetics!!!!! If you want to be recognized for that get cultural award!
Again if you want to talk about earning you would have to have collected all parents in bloom from the wild, made all the crosses, grown all the parents from flask, made all subsequent crosses and then get it awarded. *This is a community like the scientific community. They are striving for truth and build on the work of those who come before. Most of us are striving for quality and it is more efficient to build upon the work of others.*

Great growers do not have all awardable plants. People are greatly overemphasizing culture in awarding. Again I am no super grower but my plants pretty much ALWAYS improve on their second bloom. A larger plant puts up better blooms. Much of culture is financially related too. Greenhouses, heat, ro water are darn expensive! Again many great growers few great hybridizers.


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## Hien (Oct 17, 2007)

kentuckiense said:


> If I remember correctly, Lien had a whole batch of sibs that bloomed out fully flavum. Thus, what we all have are sibs and not divisions. I'm hoping mine will bloom in a few months.



Really, I have the assumption that it is only from one plant, since on OL website they all varying so much (and none is yellow)
That is quite something to get a whole batch that turn out yellow.


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## Candace (Oct 17, 2007)

> People are greatly overemphasizing culture in awarding.


 You've stated the same thing over and over. I'm not overemphasizing. I just believe that culture is at least 50% of a healthy, awardable plants merit . Whereas you strictly believe in genetics. We get it, really. 



> Much of culture is financially related too. Greenhouses, heat, ro water are darn expensive!


 More the reason the grower deserves credit for an award.


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## Rick Barry (Oct 17, 2007)

There is yet one more argument for having an orchid judged without regard to the question of who actually bloomed it.

The value of a plant is considerably enhanced when it receives an award. This is especially true of a genus that we are not currently capable of mericloning, such as Paphiopedilum. 

Consider the Paphiopedilum Armeni White 'Gold Country' FCC/AOS, which Candace recently had awarded. I don't know what she might have paid for it, but you can assume that its value increased exponentially upon receipt of that award. It went from being a very nice plant to being one of the rarest of Paphs. In Japan or Taiwan a division would likely be worth a small fortune. Had she purchased that plant in bloom and taken it directly to judging she would still have made a huge return on her investment. It was simply an Armeni White when she brought it to judging, but it was pure gold by the time she left. Regardless of the provenance of the plant, it was a very wise investment that could only be realized upon receipt of an award.

Most of us would like to receive awards on plants we have personally cultivated, but making a killing on a purchase is acceptable consolation.

Regards,
Rick


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## NYEric (Oct 17, 2007)

Rick Barry said:


> It was simply an Armeni White when she brought it to judging, but it was pure gold by the time she left.



Word!


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## slippertalker (Oct 17, 2007)

I have grown orchids for about 30 years, and there is no doubt that well grown plants bloom much better than poorly grown plants. If the plant has the best genetics and is poorly grown, it will most likely bloom poorly - no up to it's potential. When I received my one and only FCC, I called the hybridizer to let him know and the first thing out of his mouth was that I had given the plant good culture. Culture cannot be overemphasized, that being said you are wasting your time growing inferior quality plants. They will never bloom as well as their well bred relatives.


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## Candace (Oct 17, 2007)

> Most of us would like to receive awards on plants we have personally cultivated, but making a killing on a purchase is acceptable consolation.


That makes me smile. Your right, money is a good consolation prize. Since I've not sold a division, I've made no profit. But, it IS nice to know there is value there. 

Slippertalker, I think you summed up my feelings exactly. 

Since my award was mentioned I'll bring this up,(I don't want to beat it into everyone's head at every given moment). When it was awarded, the breeder of the plant and AOS judge, announced it at our OS meeting and he said this, "Candace bought this as a division from me 5 years ago. She's bloomed it better than I ever did. Don't you hate it when you sell someone a division and they show you up?" Everyone laughed. To me, that was one of the biggest compliments I've received as a grower and what I remember most. This comment came from a great grower and hybridizer, who has won countless AOS awards and at least one FCC of his own. Him saying that made my night.


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## Inverness (Oct 17, 2007)

Superior genetics is the prerequisite for award potential. Culture is the process that allows genetics to manifest themselves in a manner that confirms the expectation of the resulting award. Flowers are awarded on the basis of what's on the judging table, not the pedigree sheet. Because there are no rules regarding who did or did not grow the plant, you have to do what is acceptable to you.

Ken Brewer


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## aquacorps (Oct 17, 2007)

Candance, did the individual that sold you the division also judge it when it got awarded? Rusty


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## Candace (Oct 17, 2007)

> Candance, did the individual that sold you the division also judge it when it got awarded? Rusty



No, they have to excuse themselves from judging. He actually didn't know for certain he bred it, because the clerks remove all tags before setting the plants before the judges. But he thought it looked familiar, so he sat out on the judging just in case. And from what I've been told, the head judge will excuse other judges if an entry has a personal association with someone's nursery or breeding program.


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## rdlsreno (Oct 17, 2007)

littlefrog said:


> It depends on how you represent yourself. It is unethical to submit a plant with the intention of having it judged for culture, if you haven't been responsible for its culture. Quality awards (HCC, AM, FCC) are awards to the plant, not you. If you want to take credit for it, blame it on your excellent skills at picking plants to buy.
> 
> Excellent flowers should be recognized regardless of who grew the plant. If they aren't, how am I (as a judge) supposed to know what I'm comparing the next plant to? The more plants we look at, the better the standards become, and the better we can evaluate the next generation of breeding.



I agree!

Ramon


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## Bolero (Oct 18, 2007)

In Australia the rule is that you must own a plant for 6 months before submitting it for judging in either a show or for an award. I agree with this, it stops people trophy hunting.......getting 1st for a plant one month and giving it to someone else the next month so they can get first place the next month.

It means that you have to have flowered it yourself before you can gain credit. I think that's a good thing but I know not everyone agrees with me.

I know we argue that the plant is the one who gets it.........if that's the case why is it always the owner smiling after it wins an award???


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## Heather (Oct 18, 2007)

I am with you, Bolero...all the way. I still think this is the most ethical way to treat things. That's how our society does it as well. 

I think this would be a really good round table discussion for a society meeting if you have enough judges to have one at each table. That and just the judging standards and how they are changing because of people like Terry Root (for the better or for the worse?)


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## paphioland (Oct 18, 2007)

Bolero said:


> In Australia the rule is that you must own a plant for 6 months before submitting it for judging in either a show or for an award. I agree with this, it stops people trophy hunting.......getting 1st for a plant one month and giving it to someone else the next month so they can get first place the next month.
> 
> It means that you have to have flowered it yourself before you can gain credit. I think that's a good thing but I know not everyone agrees with me.
> 
> I know we argue that the plant is the one who gets it.........if that's the case why is it always the owner smiling after it wins an award???



I think it is about the plant. Who gets it is meaningles to me. I would agree with Candace in the sense that anyone who gets tons of fcc's is one very passionate and two has deep pockets. Or they could just be great breeders and orchids are their business. That being said I think again you are missing the point of the award. It really is for the plant. If you did it this 6 month way people would know very little about what is out there and actually you would prob get an increase in FCC because people show their plants too immature.

I personally don't care who grew it and how great of a grower they are. I care about the potential of the plant for breeding purposes and aesthetic qualities. That being said if a plant is being a phenomenal bloomer on a single growth that peaks my curiosity. If the plant is a large multi growth plant that has previosly bloomed and grown by a great grower I count that as a slight negative because I think that maybe as good as the bloom will get so it better be phenomenal.

If you do this hold for six months then bloom our knowledge of the spectacular clones out there will be mitigated. I really just want to know what great plants exist. I really never stop to think this person has this many awards so they must be a great grower. I think this person either spends alot or has great genetics or both.


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## NYEric (Oct 18, 2007)

Bolero said:


> In Australia the rule is that you must own a plant for 6 months before submitting it for judging in either a show or for an award.



Then what happens to the spectacular flower that you just bought but can't show it or have it judged. Then the public is restricted from the option to use this plant's genetic material to improve the breed. Kind of contradicts the purpose.


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## littlefrog (Oct 18, 2007)

NYEric said:


> Then what happens to the spectacular flower that you just bought but can't show it or have it judged. Then the public is restricted from the option to use this plant's genetic material to improve the breed. Kind of contradicts the purpose.



I don't think that is true, actually. You can use the plant for breeding any time you want, it doesn't need an award. Heck, a lot of plants that are great studs are unawardable, but contribute something awesome (color, for example) to their offspring.

I think we are nibbling from the wrong side of the apple here. Awards should be distinct from breeding. I don't think anybody would argue that you could immediately breed with a plant you just purchased (I do it all the time...). The debate seems to be whether or not you should be able to have such a plant judged by the AOS. 

Awards are nice, and they make you feel good. But they aren't necessary. As a judge I would prefer that every very nice plant be evaluated, just so I know what I'm looking for. But as an orchid grower, I have plenty of plants that I know are nice, I love them, and I've never exhibited them. And I have several awards to plants that aren't all that good, and a few awards that I think are way to low... Point is, I own the plants, I grow them for myself, and it is really up to me to determine how much _I_ like them. Awards are a side-note.


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## paphioland (Oct 18, 2007)

littlefrog said:


> I don't think that is true, actually. You can use the plant for breeding any time you want, it doesn't need an award. Heck, a lot of plants that are great studs are unawardable, but contribute something awesome (color, for example) to their offspring.
> 
> I think we are nibbling from the wrong side of the apple here. Awards should be distinct from breeding. I don't think anybody would argue that you could immediately breed with a plant you just purchased (I do it all the time...). The debate seems to be whether or not you should be able to have such a plant judged by the AOS.
> 
> Awards are nice, and they make you feel good. But they aren't necessary. As a judge I would prefer that every very nice plant be evaluated, just so I know what I'm looking for. But as an orchid grower, I have plenty of plants that I know are nice, I love them, and I've never exhibited them. And I have several awards to plants that aren't all that good, and a few awards that I think are way to low... Point is, I own the plants, I grow them for myself, and it is really up to me to determine how much _I_ like them. Awards are a side-note.



I agree with this. Very true. 

However, making the awards for the plant and not making people bloom them also lets people who want good genetics to know more of what is out there and makes the plants easier to locate. So, I think it does aid in a small time person's breeding


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## Candace (Oct 18, 2007)

If I were Queen for a day and ruler of the universe, I'd support changing the AOS awarding system similar to Australia's(Bolero's). But, it will never change due to the business aspect of it. Vendors who sell trophy hunters plants wouldn't support this. And money makes the world go 'round.


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## paphioland (Oct 18, 2007)

There may be "trophy hunters" but who cares. I don't worry about what others do. Awarding all plants that are worthy is good for the orchid growing community. I truly believe this. Actually I almost never take plants to get awarded and feel guilty that I am being selfish swallowing great plants and letting them dissapear into my collection. That is why I am breeding. Again I don't see awards and think of the person I think of the plant and maybe the hybridizer. It is all about the plant lol. That is why it says exibitor. I guess I just don't place emphasis on the people or the award all that much. If someone likes awards and it makes them happy let them get them. I don't care it is not hurting me! I enjoy the plants I enjoy no matter.


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## paphioland (Oct 18, 2007)

Award process can be educational as well as exciting so I think this thread could be bad for a beginer. I encourage all begginers to take plants they think are good whether you just got them or not. You will get a kick out of the experience and you will definitely learn things. Sometimes not the right things lol but most of the time you will hear good stuff to learn from.


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## Candace (Oct 18, 2007)

> I think this thread could be bad for a begginer.


 I think beginners should know there are a good amount of orchid growers out there who will hold little respect for someone who wins an award off of a plant they didn't grow. And there's obviously growers that don't give this a second thought. I think it was summed it up well that we have to do what we think is right.


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## paphioland (Oct 18, 2007)

Candace said:


> I think beginners should know there are a good amount of orchid growers out there who will hold little respect for someone who wins an award off of a plant they didn't grow. And there's obviously growers that don't give this a second thought. I think it was summed it up well that we have to do what we think is right.



I have now asked 3 of the top paph growers in the world and not one thought anything was wrong with it.

Would you really base the respect you have for someone based on this? There is nothing unethical about it. They just have a different outlook and value system. Shouldn't respect be based on important things like do they help people, are they good at their jobs, are they passionate about paphs, are they fun, interesting........


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## paphioland (Oct 18, 2007)

again what constitutes growing? From flask? Lets be totally honest *most* of the time it is not hard to grow established, multi generation from the jungle paphs, esp hybrids. Blooms are based on more then just genetics and an individual's culture. Sometimes everything just lines up right and the plant puts up a slightly better bloom. Maybe the day length was just right. Or the shade from the plant next to it gave it just the right amount of light. The temp during the summer was just right and during the other seasons too initiate spiking just when it should. I guess you could micromanage these things but NO ONE does. And no one knows the exact perfect ratio. It prob actually varies from plant to plant.


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## Heather (Oct 18, 2007)

Is it me, or is anyone else thinking about the film, _Gattaca_ right now?

Kinda scary, if you ask me, all this emphasis on breeding and genetics.


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## Candace (Oct 18, 2007)

> I have now asked 3 of the top paph growers in the world and not one thought anything was wrong with it.


 Yes, and like I said they make a lot of $ off of trophy hunters. So, I'd assume they'd be very supportive of this practice. If you like it or not, there are many folks who think and believe differently from you.



> Would you really base the respect you have for someone based on this? There is nothing unethical about it. They just have a different outlook and value system.


 Well, since their value system would be the complete opposite of mine I wouldn't have any respect, no.


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## paphioland (Oct 18, 2007)

Candace said:


> Yes, and like I said they make a lot of $ off of trophy hunters. So, I'd assume they'd be very supportive of this practice. If you like it or not, there are many folks who think and believe differently from you.
> 
> Well, since their value system would be the complete opposite of mine I wouldn't have any respect, no.



So here is a better question for you Candace. You lack respect for people who award plants that they did not "grow" prior to bloom, whatever your requirements maybe for this. Right? So what is the difference between this and buying an awarded plant. That person didn't grow it right? It was awarded on a bloom they did not "culture". If someone buys the whole awarded plant what makes that different? 

Regardless the rules clearly state that the award is for the plant. This is like having the race horse Secretariat and his owners were to have died. Then the chidren have no interest in racing and want the money and sell him. Should the new owners not race him?? Just because they did not grow him from birth. The whole horse racing community would have lost a hero and a legend in this pretend senario I have created.


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## kentuckiense (Oct 18, 2007)

paphioland said:


> Like my roth 'Dazzler'.



Half yours. Give credit when credit is due.


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## Candace (Oct 18, 2007)

> Does Michael Jordan's trainer say wow I am an awesome trainer look how good MJ is at basketball?



If I had to water, fertilize and wipe an immobile Michael's butt for life then yeah, I'd probably take the credit and say what an awesome trainer I am.:rollhappy:


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## paphioland (Oct 18, 2007)

This has been interesting but I am going to stop perseverating. Thank you for the discussion.


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## kentuckiense (Oct 18, 2007)

Yep, it's been interesting and thought provoking.


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## Candace (Oct 18, 2007)

> This has been interesting but I am going to stop perseverating. Thank you for the discussion.



What, was it the wiping Michael's butt comment? All kidding aside, I think we all did pretty well keeping our arguments civil. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, I think.


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## paphioland (Oct 18, 2007)

Candace said:


> What, was it the wiping Michael's butt comment? All kidding aside, I think we all did pretty well keeping our arguments civil. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, I think.



no nothing to do with anything. Just said everything I could say and even started to say ridiculous stuff. So I am done LOL . Too much time also.


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## NYEric (Oct 18, 2007)

littlefrog said:


> I don't think that is true, actually. You can use the plant for breeding any time you want, it doesn't need an award. Heck, a lot of plants that are great studs are unawardable, but contribute something awesome (color, for example) to their offspring.



I didn't say the owner but 'the public'.


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## Mrs. Paph (Oct 18, 2007)

...Didn't have time to read through All the posts, but in my mind, if you found a treasure of a plant in bloom, bought it b/c you thought it was the best quality you'd seen and awardable, then why the heck not show it right away if you have the chance? Isn't that part of why you bought it - b/c you thought it might be awardable? Just don't go around preening like you thought up the cross, pollinated, prayed for fertilization, flasked and grew out the seedlings!


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## Candace (Oct 18, 2007)

> I didn't say the owner but 'the public'.



Eric, I don't know what you mean by this? But when someone shows a plant and it gets awarded(or not) the pollen belongs to the plant owner, not the public. The owner has the right to share, not share or even sell pollen. Just because the plant is awarded does not guarantee it will ever enter the breeding pool.


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## NYEric (Oct 19, 2007)

But Candace, per the Australian rules [which you said you agree with], the owner can't even show the plant for 6 months; so, except for personal contacts, the public has no access to how good the plant is or to the pollen.


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## Candace (Oct 19, 2007)

> But Candace, per the Australian rules [which you said you agree with], the owner can't even show the plant for 6 months; so, except for personal contacts, the public has no access to how good the plant is or to the pollen.



Yes, I believe this is the way our award system should work. The public has no access to pollen. It belongs to the owner of the plant. I'm confused by your logic, here. ?? People are very nice on this forum and offer pollen occasionally, but this doesn't always happen for several reasons. I would venture a guestimate that at least 80% of awarded plants are never used for breeding. I'm just pulling this number out of the air, of course. It may be more or less. But, of those I see who have plants awarded, very few are used in breeding and most owners aren't interested in hybridizing.


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## NYEric (Oct 19, 2007)

Isn't it nice to have the option!


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## Candace (Oct 19, 2007)

It was stated before, the plant doesn't have to have an award to breed with it. And I assure you, if the owner is interested at all in breeding with it, they will. They aren't going to wait for strangers asking for pollen to do so. And I would bet many plant owners with a recently awarded plant would not share pollen with strangers, anyway.


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## NYEric (Oct 19, 2007)

The point is, per the australian system, no-one in the general public can even see the plant. Imagine if the award winning Armeni White was purchased in bloom but couldn't be shown and died.


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## Candace (Oct 19, 2007)

So....? There are only a room full of people that have seen it, now. Plus, I've brought it in for show and tell for at least 3 years. So, the "general public" has seen it for years. In this case my OS. In Australia the plants can be seen, simply not judged for 6 mos. 

If it was purchased in bloom and died, then maybe it wasn't a strong genetic plant anyway. Or the grower was a complete dork.


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## NYEric (Oct 19, 2007)

Candace said:


> So....? There are only a room full of people that have seen it, now. Plus, I've brought it in for show and tell for at least 3 years. So, the "general public" has seen it for years. In this case my OS. In Australia the plants can be seen, simply not judged for 6 mos.
> 
> If it was purchased in bloom and died, then maybe it wasn't a strong genetic plant anyway. Or the grower was a *complete dork*.



Wow, now I've earned a new title. 

"In Australia the rule is that you must own a plant for 6 months before submitting it for judging in *either a show *or for an award."

The said plant, whether awarded or not, probably got more exposure from being shown, and certainly will from the judging and award. Remember the feeling you got from the producers compliment about your culture. Well suppose you picked out a plant and it bloomed in 4 months, BUT YOU COULDN"T SHOW IT! I don't see the benefit in this system.


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## Candace (Oct 19, 2007)

You could put it in a show, it would be viewed, it just wouldn't be eligible for an Australian award. I really don't see the problem. I don't know if you've ever been around a judging table, but people aren't tossing pollen around in a free-for-all. Owners of these plants don't lock them away from the general public and then unveil them at an AOS judging. It doesn't work that way.



> Well suppose you picked out a plant and it bloomed in 4 months, BUT YOU COULDN"T SHOW IT!


 I'd know it would bloom again for me, so it wouldn't bother me in the least. Plants grow and bloom all the time:> Yes, unless the grower is a dork.


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## NYEric (Oct 19, 2007)

Hmmm, maybe a GNYOS show AOS judging or 2[5]. The point is if you bloomed your plant in less than 6 months it couldn't be judged. Doesn't seem right to me.


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## Heather (Oct 19, 2007)

Candace said:


> You could put it in a show, it would be viewed, *it just wouldn't be eligible for an Australian award.*



EXACTLY. As I stated long ago, in my society, *you can bring the plant in to show it just isn't elegible for a ribbon or award!*


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## Drorchid (Oct 19, 2007)

As a breeder I have no problem with people buying a plant "in-bud" and bringing it to a show. If it does get an award (HCC, AM, or FCC), I feel like it is the plant that got the award (and not the person who brought it there), and thus if it comes from my line of breeding, I feel like I got part of the award too. The more plants that come from my line of breeding that make it to shows the greater chance I have that one of my hybrids will get an award.

Unfortunately we can't bloom out all our seedlings our selves, so often customers buy some of our plants in bud before I have seen them bloom, so once in a while they may pick out a "winner" and if they take the plant to a show, and it gets an award I think it is a good thing!

I do agree with Candice that getting an award is part genetics and part cultural, but without good genetics the plant will never get an award, but by growing it well, it will bring out it's full potential. As an example the Paph. Armeni White that got an FCC. I think that plant has great genetics, but probaly due to Candice's great growing skills it bloomed to it's full potential and thus got an FCC. If someone else (with not as good growing conditions) would have bloomed it, and taken it to a show, it may have gotten an HCC or an AM.

I do feel different about someone that just bought a plant and would take it to a show and it would get a cultural award, I don't think that person deserves it (if he or she has had the plant for less than 6 months). But I think this probaby very rarely hapens.

That is just my take of things as a breeder.

P.S. When my first seedling bloomed of my first Paph. cross that I ever made, we took it in for judging and it got an AM! I felt so proud of my first baby! (and it meant I was doing something right!)

Robert


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## Rick Barry (Oct 19, 2007)

This conversation suggests a number of issues that that may be of concern to those of us that exhibit at shows and occasionally enter plants for judging.

Rules for exhibiting at a show are established by the society sponsoring the event. Societies have nearly complete control over the establishment of such rules. Most societies require that a plant has been in the possession of the exhibitor for at least six months to be eligible for ribbons and show trophies. The intent in establishing such a rule is to prevent exhibitors from receiving recognition for plants grown by others. As a statement of principle the rule is praiseworthy, but as a practical matter it is largely unenforceable. 

Exactly how does one establish when a plant came into their possession? Certainly a receipt or bill of sale cannot be required because so many plants are acquired through trades, as gifts, and from society opportunity tables. The word of the exhibitor must suffice, along with a faith in the honesty of all participants. Such faith is frequently revealed to be misguided, though proof is hard to establish. Even if ownership can be proven, how do you deal with plants that are boarded in commercial greenhouses? Such plants can hardly be considered to have been cultivated by their owners, or at least not entirely. One could argue that such plants violate the spirit of the rules and are little different from plants purchased just prior to the show. Show rules are based upon the honor system, and the honor system only applies to the honest.

When a society show includes judging by a regional or national society, such as the AOS or the CSA, the rules governing the judging are established by those respective organizations, independent of whatever rules are established for the local show. The AOS takes the position that flower quality is independent of culture. The assumption is that if a plant makes it through the screening process its culture was at least adequate. They long ago realized that any six-month ownership rule is unenforceable anyway and would only benefit the dishonest. They actually take this philosophy one step further, allowing exhibitors to receive flower quality awards on cut flowers shipped to the judging center. In theory, you can receive awards for flowers from plants you don't even own, though it is hard to imagine the motivation for doing so. 

With respect to cultural awards, the AOS enforces the six-month rule, even with the knowledge that it can be circumvented. Should a dispute arise over who actually grew an awarded plant (and really deserves the cultural award), they have little choice but to accept the word of the exhibitor. As mentioned above, it may be debatable whether one who boards their plants should be eligible for any cultural awards. 

Growers must use their own standards regarding the ethics they apply in exhibiting their plants. Even the six-month rule can be considered arbitrary. Some orchids can take over six months to go from initiating a spike to full bloom. One could buy a Cymbidium in October and enter it in a show and/or for AOS judging in April. One could do the same with Paph malipoense or any number of other orchids. In such cases, could the exhibitor really claim to have grown the plant? It is at least debatable. 

I don't really feel that I deserve credit for a blooming unless I grew the specific growths that are in bloom. To me, truly growing a plant is to nurture a new growth from its first appearance to full bloom. To my mind, that is the only way to establish that I am actually capable of growing a plant. Otherwise, I feel like I am simply finishing someone else's work. Growing and blooming orchids gives me a tremendous feeling of accomplishment, but only if I feel that I deserve full credit for that accomplishment.

When it comes to AOS or CSA awards, I'll take them when I can without violating any of the judging authority's rules. If I have a plant that I think is truly awardable, I'll try to get it judged, even if I bought it in bloom. If it is awarded I'll be happy for that, because awards add value to a plant, and I would get some satisfaction out of feeling that I have a good eye for quality in orchids. Nevertheless, I would prefer that it be a plant that I grew (by my own definition of 'growing') because that would give me an additional sense of accomplishment. I would be even happier to know that I grew the plant from seed (or even flask or seedling). 

I do feel that some exhibitors at shows are far too oriented towards getting ribbons, trophies and awards for their plants. I sometimes internally question the motivations of such exhibitors, and some behavior I have observed I can only attribute to selfishness. In the interest of harmony, I try to keep such opinions to myself. 

Regards,
Rick


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## kentuckiense (Oct 19, 2007)

Candace said:


> I don't know if you've ever been around a judging table, but people aren't tossing pollen around in a free-for-all.



I'm sorry, but this is a positively fantastic mental image. I picture lots of giggling and some occasional tickling.


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## Candace (Oct 19, 2007)

Excellent comments, Rick.



> I'm sorry, but this is a positively fantastic mental image. I picture lots of giggling and some occasional tickling.



Good one...


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## rdlsreno (Oct 20, 2007)

Rick Barry said:


> This conversation suggests a number of issues that that may be of concern to those of us that exhibit at shows and occasionally enter plants for judging.
> 
> Rules for exhibiting at a show are established by the society sponsoring the event. Societies have nearly complete control over the establishment of such rules. Most societies require that a plant has been in the possession of the exhibitor for at least six months to be eligible for ribbons and show trophies. The intent in establishing such a rule is to prevent exhibitors from receiving recognition for plants grown by others. As a statement of principle the rule is praiseworthy, but as a practical matter it is largely unenforceable.
> 
> ...



Excellent!!!!!:clap: I agree!!!


Ramon


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## Heather (Oct 28, 2007)

I was thinking about this again on the way home from the MOS show tonight and I have to say, while flower quality awards may be very rewarding, I really do feel they are more rewarding for the breeders out there. If I had won a show trophy for flower quality, and had only grown the plant well, honestly, it still wouldn't have been my award, it would have been the breeder's award. 

Winning a cultural award (which is what I won (not AOS but still...) felt much more rewarding to me tonight, driving home. I'm really proud of being able to GROW something that some people feel is hard to grow, and growing it WELL.


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## tocarmar (Oct 29, 2007)

Heather, 

Congrats again!! I saw your mexi today. Seeing it in person was a very rewarding experience. It now makes me have something to look forward to at next years show, to enter mine.

It was an excellent show I wanted 1 of everything!! lol 
I did come home with 2 new ones I bought from Glen (Piping Rock Orchids)

Tom


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## SlipperFan (Oct 29, 2007)

Heather said:


> Winning a cultural award (which is what I won (not AOS but still...) felt much more rewarding to me tonight, driving home. I'm really proud of being able to GROW something that some people feel is hard to grow, and growing it WELL.


As well you should! This is not the easiest species to grow, much less that well!


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