# what is this plant?



## baodai (Apr 6, 2010)

ID please
Thanks,
BD


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## tim (Apr 6, 2010)

guaranteed sangii cross there...seen delenatii x sangii and micranthum x sangii and the staminode's a dead ringer. other parent is an interesting question...what's sympatric with sangii in nature? plz show whole plant...


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## JeanLux (Apr 6, 2010)

the larger flower being one of the hirsutissimums, nor idea of the small bloom's id , very unique shape!!! Jean


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## smartie2000 (Apr 6, 2010)

the plant on the right is certainly very unique.

Was it found in the wild?


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## baodai (Apr 6, 2010)

tim said:


> guaranteed sangii cross there...seen delenatii x sangii and micranthum x sangii and the staminode's a dead ringer. other parent is an interesting question...what's sympatric with sangii in nature? plz show whole plant...



Tim,
It is not my plant so i can't take more pictures, There is no sangii in the area
Thanks,
BD


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## Pete (Apr 6, 2010)

no idea what it is, but its ugly as hell! ha


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Apr 6, 2010)

The bastard child of dianthum and hiepii?


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## fibre (Apr 6, 2010)

Very interesting! Where was it growing in nature or could it be a man made hybrid, baodai?


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## valenzino (Apr 6, 2010)

Its a new species.


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## SlipperKing (Apr 6, 2010)

Don't know but it's not from this world! Somebody squash that giant green cockroach so we can see the staminode!


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## Lance Birk (Apr 6, 2010)

This is a deformed flower. It happens sometimes, even in captive culture. It can be caused by damage from insects, or from fungal or bacterial injury as it just started to develop, or it can also be genetic. In the first case it will probably produce a normal flower next time; in the latter it will not.

Seeing a good photo of the plant will give a clue but more data is needed for making a better guess.


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## Damas (Apr 6, 2010)

I vote for deformed child of urbanianum x tranlienianum


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## valenzino (Apr 6, 2010)

Lance Birk said:


> This is a deformed flower. It happens sometimes, even in captive culture. It can be caused by damage from insects, or from fungal or bacterial injury as it just started to develop, or it can also be genetic. In the first case it will probably produce a normal flower next time; in the latter it will not.
> 
> Seeing a good photo of the plant will give a clue but more data is needed for making a better guess.



I've seen more photos of the plant and flower.Its 100% a new species in my opinion,and is not a single flower happening...but many,have same kind of flower so....new species.


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## labskaus (Apr 6, 2010)

I agree with Leo and others, with the little data at hand it is hard to say and easy to speculate what this is. I would guess it has until recently lived in a jungle in China or Vietnam.
I agree it looks deformed, and that pouch yells "parvisepalum!" at me. Well, actually it yells "parvi-hybrid". I have not yet seen a Barbata, Paphiopedilum or Polyantha species that produced such an inflated pouch even under the worst conditions.
Eric thought dianthum. There's the hybrid of dianthum x villosum (x petshleungianum or so) described which I find ugly and unlikely but possible.
A natural hybrid between something hover-fly pollinated like dianthum and something bee (?) pollinated like a parvisepalum- species on the other hand seems so unlikely to me that I wonder if somebody helped Mother Nature out with a toothpick.
From the combination of characters visible from baodais pictures I couldn't even place this flower in any section of the genus Paphiopedilum.

Valenzino, if you mean by "species" what botanists consider a botanical species, I have some doubts. If you mean a new "kind" including a hybrid of whatever origin, well, maybe. Having only one plant of this thing at hand makes a hybrid even more plausible to me.


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## labskaus (Apr 6, 2010)

valenzino said:


> ..but many,have same kind of flower so....new species.



I'm not sure if I read this correctly; are you saying that there are many people out there who who own plants of this particular kind? Meaning, that there's not just this one ugly duckling but many of them?


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## NYEric (Apr 6, 2010)

It's either a weird cross or new species, but I don't believe the latter, [unless it was found in the wild near no other types]. Please post a photo of the plant.


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## luvsorchids (Apr 6, 2010)

I also saw the photos on the other forum. The person who owns the plant lives in Vietnam. From what I understand, the plant was collected around a year and a half ago along with 5 others that the plants look the same. As far as I know the others have not bloomed yet. There was no other information provided about what might be nearby. 

Susan


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## callosum (Apr 6, 2010)

hirsutissimum


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## baodai (Apr 6, 2010)

some more pics


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## valenzino (Apr 6, 2010)

labskaus said:


> I'm not sure if I read this correctly; are you saying that there are many people out there who who own plants of this particular kind? Meaning, that there's not just this one ugly duckling but many of them?



I mean that the owner(and discoverer) of this plant,have more that bloomed,taken from the same area,and all plants have this flower form.
There are some photos of the plant in another forum and is very different from others.(still parvi like but have its own separate characteristics).
I know that some taxonomists are already studiyng this plant so soon we will have a more precise answear.


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## myxodex (Apr 6, 2010)

If it is a natural hybrid from Vietnam I would go for hiepii X purpuratum as their ranges come close in the north, ... they just bloom at completely different times of the year.


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## Drorchid (Apr 6, 2010)

What ever it is, it looks pretty interesting. To me it also looks like some natural hybrid between a parvi (perhaps hiepii) and some barbatum type species.

Robert


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## NYEric (Apr 6, 2010)

Man made or natural! :ninja:


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## kentuckiense (Apr 6, 2010)

What I find particularly interesting are the Parvi-esque abaxial leaf spotting and leaf stance.


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## John M (Apr 6, 2010)

myxodex said:


> If it is a natural hybrid from Vietnam I would go for hiepii X purpuratum as their ranges come close in the north, ... they just bloom at completely different times of the year.



I thought purpuratum came from Hong Kong, not Vietnam. Have a missed news of this species being discovered in Vietnam as well?


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Apr 6, 2010)

I don't know what it is about that flower that creeps me out...kind of like the cyclops kitten or the anencephalic baby that was worshipped as a god...no doubt that if it becomes available I will want it anyway...there was a time when I thought that sangii was the ugliest paph conceivable...now I want it...and the ugliest paph award now goes to......?


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## Pete (Apr 7, 2010)

the pouch of _sangii_ is weird, kinda like a _venustum_, only moreso..but its got unreal petals!
but this thing is downright busted. and thats coming from a guy whos a fan of warts and hairs on flowers... ha!


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## myxodex (Apr 7, 2010)

John, P. purpuratum was discovered in northern Vietnam near the Chinese border in 2000 by Averyanov. In his book "Slipper Orchids of Vietnam" (2003) there are photographs of Vietnamese plants in situ. It also occurs in regions of SE China that border Vietnam. A new species called P.aestivum was described from this region, however in the above mentioned book they conclude that this plant, which differs from purpuratum in having a horizontal dorsal, distinct veins on it's leaves and which flowers at a different time of year to P. purpuratum, nonetheless falls into the natural variation of P. purpuratum. They speculate that purpuratum "aestivum" actually originates in Vietnam and appeared together with typical purpuratum at a market in the Chinese border town of Wenshan where Vietnamese plants are regularly traded.
It is the dorsal and the green reticulate markings on the staminode that made me think of Barbata species, and the other two Barbata species from Vietnam, callosum and appletonianum occur far to the south.
However it's just idle speculation on my part as I cannot see how these two species could produce that profoundly ugly thing, unless we are looking at a seriously deformed flower.


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## Pete (Apr 7, 2010)

it looks like a damaged flower, like something happened to the plant when the bud was at a critical time of development. ive seen crazily distorted stuff like this before from like pesticide damage..


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## Pete (Apr 7, 2010)

i dunno its just so small looking, could it be a deformed (hiepii x purpuratum) or something?


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## valenzino (Apr 7, 2010)

Pete said:


> i dunno its just so small looking, could it be a deformed (hiepii x purpuratum) or something?




If you look to the flower,its simmetrical,with no strange issues on its parts well opened and in the "opening sequence",opens with no evident deformations.
In my opinion this cannot be absolutely a deformed flower.Maybe a mutation(also mutation have nearly always evident simmetry problems) but also difficult.
Impossible can be a hiepii hybrid,the plant and flower is too small.
The plant is + or - micranthum size with little bit rounder leaves....
The only flower similar to this(but still very different and size still too big) is 
P. malipoense var. angustatum.


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## labskaus (Apr 7, 2010)

valenzino said:


> The only flower similar to this(but still very different and size still too big) is
> P. malipoense var. angustatum.



I am convinced that both hiepii and angustatum are aberrant forms of jackii/malipoense, and as far as I know Averyanov thinks the same about hiepii by now. I won't comment on the work of the people who published angustatum and a lot of other Paphiopedilum names. Just that much: 
That plant which is the subject of this post looks a lot like hiepii and therefore looks a lot like the aberrant, deformed flower of a badly treated, weak and highly stressed plant. You're pointing out that the plant size is small, maybe it is simply too young to carry a normal flower?
I still find it unlikely that a natural hybrid should exist between a Parvisepalum and a species from a different section. There's Barbata (purpuratum?) influence in this flower, so who got his toothpick out to fool the Paph community (and earn a few bucks) with this new species?:evil: Remember Paph jogjae.


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## valenzino (Apr 7, 2010)

labskaus said:


> I am convinced that both hiepii and angustatum are aberrant forms of jackii/malipoense, and as far as I know Averyanov thinks the same about hiepii by now. I won't comment on the work of the people who published angustatum and a lot of other Paphiopedilum names. Just that much:
> That plant which is the subject of this post looks a lot like hiepii and therefore looks a lot like the aberrant, deformed flower of a badly treated, weak and highly stressed plant. You're pointing out that the plant size is small, maybe it is simply too young to carry a normal flower?
> I still find it unlikely that a natural hybrid should exist between a Parvisepalum and a species from a different section. There's Barbata (purpuratum?) influence in this flower, so who got his toothpick out to fool the Paph community (and earn a few bucks) with this new species?:evil: Remember Paph jogjae.



About hiepii and angustatum I can agree,like mich oblatum and globulosum...

The plant is small but not young,is a multigrowth plant(the one in the photo is 3 growths).
About similarity to this plant with hiepii...I dont see similarity,is like saying that delenatii can be confused with vietnamense.
Also i cant see any Barbata character in this flower.And finally,as i mentioned before is not a single plant...there are more.
Important is that the owner is an hobbist/explorer that dont sell plants and is keeping secret the original location at the moment.


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## John M (Apr 7, 2010)

Thanks for the explanation myxodex.


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## labskaus (Apr 7, 2010)

Thanks for your replies, Valenzino. No offense intended towards you. Let's sit back, and wait what comes out of this.


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## valenzino (Apr 7, 2010)

labskaus said:


> Thanks for your replies, Valenzino. No offense intended towards you. Let's sit back, and wait what comes out of this.



Dont worry,I think this are positive discussions to have,to have a comparison about ideas....usually truth stays in the middle....
Shurly soon more news about it...

If its a species....with what you will cross it?


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## Leo Schordje (Apr 7, 2010)

Time, which will allow the collection of better information, will tell what this is. If it is a natural hybrid my guess would be Paph (hainaniense x micranthum), that could account for the petals, narrow dorsal, the stripes in the dorsal, but not likely for the column & staminode sheild. It will become another one on the list needed to make a complete collection.


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## wonderlen3000 (Apr 7, 2010)

could it be emersonii natural hybrids?? probably with hiepii that is under nutrition. lol The plant does have typical emersonii hybrid pouch and you can see the slight tessellation on the petal, that is typical of malipoense. 

Flower is small, but don't forget hirtsutisismum is a very large flower and some clone can be as big as 6-8" across.


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## Pete (Apr 7, 2010)

> If its a species....with what you will cross it?



I'd self it and see if theres a lot of segregation


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## Hakone (Apr 27, 2010)

paphiopedilum canhii

http://www.hoalanvietnam.org/Article.asp?ID=681


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## Pete (Apr 27, 2010)

cool! thanks for the link. that thing is just so strange looking. I would just love to see what selfings of it came out to look like


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## SlipperKing (Apr 27, 2010)

I second that Pete. Thanks for the link Hakone.


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## Ernie (Apr 27, 2010)

Wow. Who'd'a thought. The race is on...

-Ernie


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## labskaus (Apr 27, 2010)

Well, it got a name. Let's see if that name stands the test of time.

Thanks for the link, Hakone.


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## NYEric (Apr 27, 2010)

Thanx for the link. I'll take 2. [it does look like a green cockroach!]


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## smartie2000 (Apr 27, 2010)

It has recently been described then, thanks! it doesn't look bad. The staminode has a nice patterning. Something neat to have in the collection, though I wouldn't go nuts for it.

paph sangii is uglier generally. I don't like the pouch


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## baodai (Apr 27, 2010)

NYEric said:


> Thanx for the link. I'll take 2. [it does look like a green cockroach!]



Come to RI and see me Eric


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## NYEric (Apr 27, 2010)

Maybe within the next 2 weeks, or our family reunion in Kingston in June, thanx.


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## baodai (Apr 27, 2010)

Hakone said:


> paphiopedilum canhii
> 
> http://www.hoalanvietnam.org/Article.asp?ID=681



Thank you Hakone,

I have a question:
How much would you pay for this plant? How much do you think it worth? and how much do you think the Taiwanese will pay for it.
I hate to see Taiwan be monopoly at this one. I will self cross when one of them flower for me.

I also will make (paph sangii x canhii), Is there a award for the ugliest paph? What other crosses would you like to see ?
Thanks,
BD


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## Hakone (Apr 27, 2010)

baodai said:


> Thank you Hakone,
> 
> I have a question:
> How much would you pay for this plant? How much do you think it worth? and how much do you think the Taiwanese will pay for it.
> ...



Hello baodai,
for 1000 USD you can buy the Plant in Ha Noi 
thank you very much baodai but I cultivate only abino form :drool:


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## emydura (Apr 27, 2010)

Thanks Hakone. Exciting news. Personally I think this is way uglier than sangii. Easily the ugliest Paph found yet. 

David


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Apr 27, 2010)

Its ugly as sin.......and I want one!


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## likespaphs (Apr 29, 2010)

NYEric said:


> Maybe within the next 2 weeks, or our family reunion in Kingston in June, thanx.



if you feel like it, lemme know when you're around...


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## goldenrose (Apr 29, 2010)

emydura said:


> Thanks Hakone..... Personally I think this is way uglier than sangii. Easily the ugliest Paph found yet.
> David


Now hold on there - sangii has an alien like, unique appearance in my eyes. So yes I agree this is ugly, it has one of those paph x phrag looks. Must say the leaves are gorgeous though!


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## emydura (Apr 29, 2010)

goldenrose said:


> Now hold on there - sangii has an alien like, unique appearance in my eyes. So yes I agree this is ugly, it has one of those paph x phrag looks. Must say the leaves are gorgeous though!



Sangii certainly isn't pretty (none of the Paphs are really), but there is still something about it that greatly attracts me. The flower has a lot of character. This new species has absolutely nothing going for it in my eyes. Still I want one. 

David


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## PaphMadMan (Apr 29, 2010)

emydura said:


> Sangii certainly isn't pretty (none of the Paphs are really), ...



None??? delenatii? armeniacum? niveum? purpuratum? charlesworthii? henryanum? fairrieanum?

Really, none?


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## emydura (Apr 29, 2010)

PaphMadMan said:


> None??? delenatii? armeniacum? niveum? purpuratum? charlesworthii? henryanum? fairrieanum?
> 
> Really, none?



It all depends on your definition of pretty I guess. They are certainly "prettier" than sangii. I guess I have never considered slipper orchids really "pretty" flowers. Not like daffodills, roses or pansies for example. Fascinating, majestic, different "Yes". But pretty? I'm not sure. I show photos of slipper orchids here at work and rarely does anyone say they are pretty. "Alien" is a word used a lot to describe many of them.

David


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## parvi_17 (Apr 30, 2010)

This has been very interesting to watch unfold.

Personally I'm surpised so many people think it's so ugly - I think it's kind of cute.


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## dodidoki (Apr 30, 2010)

There is an article descibing this as a new species, canhii. Anyway it is very similar.


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## NYEric (Apr 30, 2010)

likespaphs said:


> if you feel like it, lemme know when you're around...



I will, if possible for us to meet up w/ baodai we will eat spicy food, lust over plants and tell funny stories till it hurts!


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## likespaphs (Apr 30, 2010)

dig it!


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