# Time to throw in the towel...



## The Mutant (Jan 28, 2014)

I think it's about time to throw in the towel and toss the major part of my Paph collection in the bin. The reason? Well, I'm a stupid Paph owner who kept my affected Delrosi, and now, whatever it has, has spread to almost the entire collection (as I know some of you predicted would happen).

I'm going to try a last thing, the only available fungicide I've found here in Sweden, called CurEra Kumulus DF. It seems to be a sulfur based fungicide which is mainly used against mildew, and is apparently effective against Monilia and Venturia, too. If this doesn't work, it's the waste basket for about 90% of my entire collection. :sob:

We have a saying in Sweden; "Är huvudet dumt så får kroppen lida", roughly (and badly) translated to "If the head's stupid, the body will suffer". In my case, the saying should be changed to; "If the head's stupid, the wallet will suffer". 

I hope this will work now, if not I'll have to start all over again.


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## Justin (Jan 28, 2014)

can you post some pics of the afflicted plants?


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## NYEric (Jan 28, 2014)

Yes. Post a photo of affected plants. I never heard of a fungus that couldn't be stopped. Dragon's Blood is particularly effective.
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2106&highlight=Dragons+Blood


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## eteson (Jan 28, 2014)

NYEric said:


> Yes. Post a photo of affected plants. I never heard of a fungus that couldn't be stopped. Dragon's Blood is particularly effective.
> http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2106&highlight=Dragons+Blood




I agree with Eric, try Dragon's blood. It would be esaier to find in Sweden than fungicides and works very well against fingal and bacterial problems.


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## Erythrone (Jan 28, 2014)

Or cinnamon extract with alcool.


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## The Mutant (Jan 28, 2014)

I will try to see if I can get some good photos tomorrow. It's way too dark now, and my camera is rather light sensitive, and the spots are hard to see on some plants.

The thing is, I have no idea what it is. It could be fungus (I think it's the most likely ailment), it could be insects, but I've recently treated the entire collection against insects and the problem continues, it might even be virus. 

It took some time for me to discover the fact that it had spread as much as it has, due to it only being visible on the underside of the leaves as yellowish spots. On most Paphs, it's only the older leaves that are affected, but on some, even the newer ones. On the severely affected ones, the yellow spots merge and get visible on the upper side of the leaves too, like it goes through the leaf tissue. This happened to my sukh, and I cut everything off, except the two top most leaves, since these were free from the spots. Now, a yellow spot has appeared on one of the leaves left.

It seems to be slow and so far, it doesn't seem to affect the plants in any visible way, except that they look ugly on the underside of the leaves. I have no idea what it is, but I don't like it.

I have tossed my Paph. Wössner Vietnam Star, since this one was so heavily infected, I didn't dare keep it (it stood close to my Delrosi before I discovered those nasty spots on it, so it seems to have been infected during this time). 

Hmm... I checked the Dragon's Blood thingy, and it seems available here in Sweden actually. I might be able to get a hold of Physan 20, which one of these would you recommend I use?

I've attached a picture of the spots on my Delrosi (it looks worse now, but the infection, those yellow spots, looks the same on my other infected Paphs):


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## Justin (Jan 28, 2014)

Doesn't look like virus, it is fungal or bacterial infection. 

i had the EXACT same problem with my plants a couple years ago. It was definitely infectious across plants. I was in deep despair but overcame the problem. 

The strategy for me was 1) stop the spread by removing infected tissues, and 2) change culture to make plants stronger/less susceptible.

Along with surgical removal, copper fungicide helped stop the spread (Phyton 20 wes effective). 

But then the biggest change that helped me was culural. I had previously been using reverse osmosis water which was starving my plants of Calcium and Magnesium (even though the fert I was using had them). Rick would say it was Potassium overload.

When i switched back to tapwater and a K-lite formulation with Calcium NItrate in it, I never saw the problem again. (after a year of K-Lite, today i alternate K-lite with 30-10-10 urea fert)

So for a start, definitely suggest cutting that heavily infected leaf off the Delrosi with a flame-sterilized tool, and find some copper spray.


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## jtrmd (Jan 28, 2014)

I think a lot of growers run into a rot issue eventually. I treated mine with a couple different fungicides in rotation and it went away. Mine was a plant that was tucked behind a lot of multi's that I never seen declining and it spread like crazy. If I were you I would treat everything,unless you're looking for a reason to get rid of plants you don't want or have a ton of divisions of


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## John M (Jan 28, 2014)

I've seen this in Phrag besseae. The leaf tissue seems to liquify on the inside, while the outside remains dry. It was a calcium deficiency. I solved the problem quickly by feeding with Phostrogen, which contains calcium and Magnesium. Nowadays, I use Calcium Nitrate and Epsome salts in my regular feeding schedule and I never see this problem anymore.

This problem of yours could be physiological, not a contagious disease caused by a pathogen.


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## Justin (Jan 28, 2014)

Definitely agree on the Calcium Nitrate and Epsom Salts. Made a huge difference for my plants on this issue.


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## TyroneGenade (Jan 28, 2014)

Mr Mutant, my advice is for you to go through your plants right now and separate every healthy plant from the unhealthy plants. Move them into a different room if you can and, assuming you are accidentally transmitting the fungus with your equipment, get new equipment for watering etc...

If the dragon's blood doesn't work, you might still be able to save some plants with good quarantine procedures.


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## gnathaniel (Jan 28, 2014)

That stinks! Is it actually causing damage or does it just look unsightly?

You might, in addition to 'bigger guns,' try getting some powdered aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid) and mixing it in your irrigation water at 1/8-1/4 tsp per gallon. I don't have time to link articles right now but you can find papers on Google Scholar referencing the role salicylic acid apparently plays in plants' 'immune response' to pathogens, the jury's still out on effectiveness of dosing extra but it certainly doesn't seem to harm plants plus it's cheap to buy and relatively nontoxic to handle.

Good luck!


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## The Mutant (Jan 28, 2014)

Thanks for all of your opinions guys, much appreciated. I think it's a combination of something cultural and the fact that the Delrosi was infected when I got it. This, coupled with bad quarantine procedures and probably, bad sanitary ones, has led to the problem I have today.

I have removed all suspicious looking tissue from all my Paphs (the Phals are unaffected and are not standing together with the Paphs), and treated them with this sulfur based fungicide. I've gotten some more tips that I'll try if this or Dragon's blood doesn't work.

I have been mixing K-lite with Blomstra, since, for some reason, if I only use K-lite, my plants will barely grow, and if I only use Blomstra, they look like they might suffer from Magnesium deficiency (even if I add Magnesium which I have done). I feel I have more problems with insects and this, whatever it is, since I started using Blomstra, so I want to make K-lite work. I have some ideas that I'll try, and then we'll see.  



gnathaniel said:


> That stinks! Is it actually causing damage or does it just look unsightly?
> 
> You might, in addition to 'bigger guns,' try getting some powdered aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid) and mixing it in your irrigation water at 1/8-1/4 tsp per gallon. I don't have time to link articles right now but you can find papers on Google Scholar referencing the role salicylic acid apparently plays in plants' 'immune response' to pathogens, the jury's still out on effectiveness of dosing extra but it certainly doesn't seem to harm plants plus it's cheap to buy and relatively nontoxic to handle.
> 
> Good luck!


As far as I can tell, it doesn't seem to cause any damage to some of the plants. The exception was my sukh, where the spots merged and started to go through the leaf tissue, and same with my Wössner Vietnam Star. So, if left alone, it eventually causes damage, or maybe if the Paph in question has some health problems, it might prove lethal.

I have aspirin and have thought about using it, but haven't gotten that far. I think it's about time I do, though.


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## Clark (Jan 28, 2014)

I usually crack open a few beers during times like this.


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## Ozpaph (Jan 28, 2014)

Cant you buy fungicides etc on eBay from the USA and get them sent? - I do to Australia.


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## MorandiWine (Jan 28, 2014)

I am having the exact same issue with one of my Paphs right now. Gonna tag along and try these steps. Thanks

Those of you using Epsom Salts, what is the dosage? I use RO water as well because our water here in California is horrible.

Thanks again and good luck!

tyler


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## Paph_LdyMacBeth (Jan 28, 2014)

We all run into issues at some point so beating yourself up isn't worth it. You can only learn from this experience!

Also, I think you can call yourself a true "orchidist" when you get to the point where throwing out hundreds of dollars of plants only phases you a little (cause let's face it you'll never entirely get over it). 

I think if you can keep them well isolated its worth a shot to try and save them. 

Good luck

Sent from my BlackBerry Bold 9900 using Tapatalk


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## The Mutant (Jan 28, 2014)

Ozpaph said:


> Cant you buy fungicides etc on eBay from the USA and get them sent? - I do to Australia.


I don't know. Can I? I think I gave up on ordering anything orchid related after trying to get hold of certain types of fertilizer. I simply assumed that the fungicides were liquids, too, which meant it wouldn't get shipped to Sweden. Are these fungicides in powder form? And if they are, which one should I get?



Paph_LdyMacBeth said:


> We all run into issues at some point so beating yourself up isn't worth it. You can only learn from this experience!
> 
> Also, I think you can call yourself a true "orchidist" when you get to the point where throwing out hundreds of dollars of plants only phases you a little (cause let's face it you'll never entirely get over it).
> 
> ...


I know, but I wish I could learn without my Paphs suffering too much. 

There are only a few I consider hopeless to save (three so far), the rest I hope might pull through after the mangling I put them through. I have moved the plants around, clearing up some space, which I hope will help now and in the future. All of the worst affected plants have been isolated.

Thank you.


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## Paphman910 (Jan 28, 2014)

Mutant:

That picture reminds me of my problems a few years ago. It started as light yellow patches and it looks like the plant got weaken very quickly. 

Turns out it was a thrip infestation! Lost about 50-60% of my sanderianum seedlings!

I suggest you spray with some insecticide soap and treat it with some sort of fungicide.


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## DavidCampen (Jan 28, 2014)

MorandiWine said:


> Those of you using Epsom Salts, what is the dosage? I use RO water as well because our water here in California is horrible.
> tyler



Less than 1 gram per gallon. I prefer magnesium nitrate to Epsom Salt (magnesium sulfate) since I can apply it with calcium nitrate. You can buy both here:
http://www.jrpeters.com/Products/Specialty-Nutrients/Buy-Specialty-Nutrients.html

Or you could use a formulation made for use with pure water like:
http://www.jrpeters.com/Products/Ja...d-Formulas/12-3-15-Orchid--RO-Type-Water.html
http://www.jrpeters.com/Products/Hydroponics/Buy-Hydroponics.html


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## PaphMadMan (Jan 28, 2014)

Haviing lost an entire collection twice (mealy bugs in my case) I feel your pain. When I saw the picture my first thoughts were spot necrosis from calcium deficiency, or thrips damage. Either could provide the weak spot for an opportunistic pathogen to cause further damage. Others beat me to these suggestions. If it was my plants, I'd want to rule out or address those possibilities first. And start some kind of fungicide.


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## Stone (Jan 28, 2014)

I agree with Paphman910. Nothing to do with Calcium or Magnesium or Potassium or any other nutrient.
It is either mite or thrips (I would bet mites) damage with has allowed fungus or bacterial infection. You should treat your entire collection with a good insecticide, an acricide and a fungicide 3 times about 10 days apart.
It is very important to assume any new plant is infested and treat it before it joins the others. If you do the above you WILL get on top of this!  Sulphur is a good start as it will kill mites (especially the microfine formulations) but you need to find a systemic as well.
I recommend using rubber gloves and holding each plant up with one hand and spraying every square millimetre top and bottom incuding the pots and media. Its a lot of work but its the best way!

Just had another look. The small bottom leaf shows definite mite damage on its upper surface!!!


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## abax (Jan 28, 2014)

Cleary's 3336 is a powder/granular systemic fungicide and Orthene 97%
wettable powder is an insecticide that will do the job even on mites. Both
stink, but will stop fungi AND insects. Since you don't have to broad spray,
both might be a better option. I just drench the potting medium until
it runs through the bottom. Sunspray Ultrafine Horticultural Oil is a good
follow up treatment for mites.


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## NYEric (Jan 29, 2014)

Erythrone said:


> Or cinnamon extract with alcool.


Dragon's Blood works better. After you remove the heaviest damaged parts and treat with a dessicant/fungicide (I bet foot powder might even work!) separate the plants. From the photos I think you have a salt problem, lighten up on the fertilizer and definitely use RO or distilled water to flush the media. Then to take care of whatever is making the pock marks on the top of the leaves use Neem oil. I have had weeks where I have thrown out 10+ plants and trust me I mean expensive Pk hybrids, I dont think you're at that point with this problem!


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## Trithor (Jan 29, 2014)

I am saddened to read of your problem. There is a lot of good advice being given. One thing I would advise is to treat your whole collection as if it is affected/infected, no matter if the plants are or are not showing signs of the malady or not. One thing to remember is that if it is an infection, your potting medium will be contaminated as well, and if it is an infestation, they will be hiding in the potting medium. Don't just pay attention to the plants, also pay attention to the pots and potting medium. (I am not going to advise that you get rid of the topdressing of sphagnum as part of your approach, as I already said that in your original post)
Good luck, I hope it clears!


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## hchan (Jan 29, 2014)

Another possible thing to try is hydrogen peroxide, but I think you probably already have enough suggestions! Good luck, I hope it all works out


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## Secundino (Jan 29, 2014)

So sad.
But keep your spirit up, follow Stone's and Trithor's advice and add a bit more of ventilation. 

On an other side - can somebody enlighten me and tell me what _Dragon Blood_ is supposed to be? What I managed to goo88el and what I found using the search of ST, it seems just a joke? (If it is not, I beg pardon. If it is and anybody wants to grow a Dragon Tree, tell me, I have some spare seeds. Everywhere.)


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## The Mutant (Jan 29, 2014)

Again, thanks guys. 

It has also been suggested that I water too much and that this could be one of the reasons why I have these problems. I'm not ruling that option out either.

Anyway, the entire collection has been treated with the sulfur based fungicide, and now I hope I'll be able to get my hand on something better.



Stone said:


> I agree with Paphman910. Nothing to do with Calcium or Magnesium or Potassium or any other nutrient.
> It is either mite or thrips (I would bet mites) damage with has allowed fungus or bacterial infection. You should treat your entire collection with a good insecticide, an acricide and a fungicide 3 times about 10 days apart.
> It is very important to assume any new plant is infested and treat it before it joins the others. If you do the above you WILL get on top of this!  Sulphur is a good start as it will kill mites (especially the microfine formulations) but you need to find a systemic as well.
> I recommend using rubber gloves and holding each plant up with one hand and spraying every square millimetre top and bottom incuding the pots and media. Its a lot of work but its the best way!
> ...


Here's the thing, I've already treated my entire collection with a systematic insecticide since I also suspected mites (and I chose one that's effective against mites and thrips). So at least that part is done. 

And yep, I need better routines when introducing new plants to the collection, that's obvious.

______________________________________________________________________

Some more pictures:



























It's very hard to capture these spots on a photo, they're much more visible IRL. I'm also wondering if maybe some of them are discolourations from the insecticide I used. But better safe than sorry, I guess.


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## monocotman (Jan 29, 2014)

*rot or insects?*

Interesting thread.
I have a very similar problem with a Phrag Don Wimber at present.
The problem looks just like the discoloured patch at the base of the youngest leaf in your first photo. I am sure mine is rot.
The same plant was attacked two years ago and I saved it by cutting out all affected tissue and treating the edges with cinnamon powder.
Howvere it did disfigure the plant badly and I was hoping that the present new large growth was a new beginning.
Don't discount the possibility of this being rot.
You've already treated for bugs and if any are left they should be visible under a hand lens. 
The initial damage could be due to sucking insects and the present damage to rot.
I would cut out all problem areas and then try to grow the plants 'harder' for a bit of time and use epsom salts and a bit of aspirin and cinnamon. 
Maybe give the plant a bit more light to encourage thicker and more resistant leaves.
It is what I will be trying,
Regards,
David


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## Bjorn (Jan 29, 2014)

Secundino said:


> So sad.
> But keep your spirit up, follow Stone's and Trithor's advice and add a bit more of ventilation.
> 
> On an other side - can somebody enlighten me and tell me what _Dragon Blood_ is supposed to be? What I managed to goo88el and what I found use the search of ST, it seems just a joke? (If it is not, I beg pardon. If it is and anybody wants to grow a Dragon Tree, tell me, I have some spare seeds. Everywhere.)



I use it all the time and have good use of it, particularly for erwinia/pseudomonas and their look-alikes. I believe it was the below thread that made me test it, and although the number and severity of incidences have shrunk (touch wood!) I still apply a drop if I see watery bloches. more often than not, even crown rots are stopped and plants survive when I use the stuff.
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5007&highlight=dragons+blood
I used to buy it from Lance, but his mail order stopped working for me so I had to find alternative Sources. It has to be resin (sap) of the Croton lechleri tree, not Dracena Draco which is what I believe is the one you are familiar With.


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## Trithor (Jan 29, 2014)

Most infestations/infections are indicative of some problem with culture. The incorrect cultural technique predisposes the plant/s to insect infestation or microbial infection. The secret is to find out what you are doing wrong as well as treating the ailment. If you don't correct the problem, you may win this bout, but the problem will recur. A growing environment is such a complex interaction of factors that it is difficult to come to grips with them all. The majority of us provide an averaged environment which suits some plants better than others. To complicate things further (or make them easier), there are a range of microclimates within our growing environments. 
Obviously introducing a new plant into any environment should be done with care. The minimum I would be comfortable with is a close inspection, accompanied by repotting into my own mix in a clean pot.
One thing I have found has reduced the incidence of infections is adding EM to my water once a month.


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## Secundino (Jan 29, 2014)

Thanks, Bjorn. I'd read that and that's why I thought it might be just another joke. 

Agree completely with Trithor; just add that a windowsill is still more complicated than a GH, and nordic climate (light, tº) doesn't help. 
As an afterthought: I've noticed (comparing posts in a few forums and looking at my own - diseased - plants) that most of the fungal/bacterial rot-diseases appear mostly in midwinter and the first autum-like days (which may be in summer...). They have in common: low light level, shorter photoperiod, lower temperatures and high humidity. Conditions that a lot of plants dislike (even outside!) and (lot of) fungi adore...
So I think it is a good advice, keeping in mind the interaction of all parameters that influence plant growth, to add ventilation (lowers tº but also humidity, encourages transpiration and thus helps ass- und dissimilation) and to add light (rise of tº eventually, helps assimilation) this time of the year. I have grown orchids many years in the north, and I've learned a lot to adapt the way I'm growing them now at 28º latitude...!


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## The Mutant (Jan 29, 2014)

monocotman said:


> Interesting thread.
> I have a very similar problem with a Phrag Don Wimber at present.
> The problem looks just like the discoloured patch at the base of the youngest leaf in your first photo. I am sure mine is rot.
> The same plant was attacked two years ago and I saved it by cutting out all affected tissue and treating the edges with cinnamon powder.
> ...


I think the only thing I can say with certainty, is that it's not any form of rot. If it's rot, it's the slowest rot in the history of rot. I've had the Delrosi for about 8 months (it has had this, whatever it is, the entire time), for example, and despite being almost completely yellow on the underside of some of the leaves, they were still firm, and didn't smell anything. So, not rot.

The bug treatment took place about two weeks ago, so it's quite recent that I started to pay attention to the issues I had within the collection.

I do believe that it most probably was initially caused my mites, and then this, whatever it is, happily followed after.

All the infected tissue, has been removed, and I think your advice is a sound one. The worst infestations seem to have happened to the plants with the softer leaves. 




Bjorn said:


> I use it all the time and have good use of it, particularly for erwinia/pseudomonas and their look-alikes. I believe it was the below thread that made me test it, and although the number and severity of incidences have shrunk (touch wood!) I still apply a drop if I see watery bloches. more often than not, even crown rots are stopped and plants survive when I use the stuff.
> http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5007&highlight=dragons+blood
> I used to buy it from Lance, but his mail order stopped working for me so I had to find alternative Sources. It has to be resin (sap) of the Croton lechleri tree, not Dracena Draco which is what I believe is the one you are familiar With.


Thank you for all of your advice Bjorn, and I will order from the link you provided me. 




Trithor said:


> Most infestations/infections are indicative of some problem with culture. The incorrect cultural technique predisposes the plant/s to insect infestation or microbial infection. The secret is to find out what you are doing wrong as well as treating the ailment. If you don't correct the problem, you may win this bout, but the problem will recur. A growing environment is such a complex interaction of factors that it is difficult to come to grips with them all. The majority of us provide an averaged environment which suits some plants better than others. To complicate things further (or make them easier), there are a range of microclimates within our growing environments.
> Obviously introducing a new plant into any environment should be done with care. The minimum I would be comfortable with is a close inspection, accompanied by repotting into my own mix in a clean pot.
> One thing I have found has reduced the incidence of infections is adding EM to my water once a month.


I've tried to like your post, couldn't.  I want a like button on ST.

So many wise words (you been looking too deep into the wine bottle again? :wink: ) and all I can do is agree. As I mentioned in my first post, I think it's something cultural that has contributed to the problem, and I need to figure out what. I won't buy any more Paphs until I have, because it's not fun if I buy them, only to kill them all.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

When I used K-lite, the leaves on the plants got firmer, but smaller and the growth rate went down, plus some got rather pale leaves (not only the ones that got waaaaay too much light). With Blomstra, the growth rate went up, the leaves turned a nicer shade of green, but some plants got floppy leaves instead, and this problem (points to the thread in general) increased. So, I need the positive aspects of both of these fertilizers, then I think most of the cultural issues would disappear. It could be that something in my culture is causing the issues with the fertilizer in the first place, too... So many possibilities. 

I have an idea of going exclusive K-lite again, but add some household ammonia, maybe to the water or maybe spray the plants with the solution. Household ammonia would be ammonium hydroxide, and I got this idea earlier, but discarded it. Maybe it could be worth a shot? What do you guys say? I really cant get my hands on urea, it's impossible, otherwise I would try that instead.


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## The Mutant (Jan 29, 2014)

Secundino said:


> Thanks, Bjorn. I'd read that and that's why I thought it might be just another joke.
> 
> Agree completeley with Trithor; just add that a windowsill is still more complicated than a GH, and nordic climate (light, tº) doesn't help.
> As an afterthought: I've noticed (comparing post in a few forums and looking at my plants) that most of the fungal/bacterial rot-diseases appear mostly in midwinter and the first autum-like days (which may be in summer...). They have in common: low light level, shorter photoperiod, lower temperatures and high humidity. Conditions that a lot of plants dislike (even outside!) and (lot of) fungi adore...
> So I think it is a good advice, keeping in mind the interaction of all parameters that influence plant growth, to add ventilation (lowers tº but also humidity, encourages transpiration and thus helps ass- und dissimilation) and to add light (rise of tº eventually, helps assimilation) this time of the year. I have grown orchids many years in the north, and I've learned a lot to adapt the way I'm growing them now at 28º latitude...!


I agree... It's trying to get a reasonable balance between your and your apartments likes and dislikes, and the orchids... And yes, this sort of exploded now during the darkest time in Sweden, so I need some better light for my collection. I think the ones I have are too weak.


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## eggshells (Jan 29, 2014)

The last set of photos that you posted. It seems like something chewed on them. As Paphman said it could be thrips or mealies. Could also be mites. By the way, mites are not insects so you need a miticide for that and not insecticide. There might be some chemical controls that works for both if its indeed a pest problem.


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## The Mutant (Jan 29, 2014)

Guys, I found some Dolomite supplement available here in Sweden. It contains some sort of extra that I don't know if it's good for plants (I'll try to translate as well as I can); starch from corn, magnesium salts (?), some cellulose of some kind (says mikrokristallin cellulosa).

I have also found what looks like straight Dolomite powder.

Could this be used to add Ca and Mg to the plants, or does have any effect at all? 



eggshells said:


> The last set of photos that you posted. It seems like something chewed on them. As Paphman said it could be thrips or mealies. Could also be mites. By the way, mites are not insects so you need a miticide for that and not insecticide. There might be some chemical controls that works for both if its indeed a pest problem.


The insecticide I used is supposed to work against mites, thripes, and mealybugs (since I suspected it was mites, I bought something that was supposed to be effective against them). It's just me who doesn't know the proper terms for things. Apparently the sulfur based fungicide is also effective against mites, so if there are any mites left, they are triple-dead by now. :wink: I hope...


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## Paphman910 (Jan 29, 2014)

The Mutant said:


> Guys, I found some Dolomite supplement available here in Sweden. It contains some sort of extra that I don't know if it's good for plants (I'll try to translate as well as I can); starch from corn, magnesium salts (?), some cellulose of some kind (says mikrokristallin cellulosa).
> 
> I have also found what looks like straight Dolomite powder.
> 
> ...



What insecticide are you using?


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## The Mutant (Jan 29, 2014)

Paphman910 said:


> What insecticide are you using?


Natria Pyrsol Spray.


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## Paphman910 (Jan 29, 2014)

The Mutant said:


> Natria Pyrsol Spray.



Same stuff as EndAll. 

Did you spray it during the evenings? If you spray it during the hot sunny day, it could cause blemishes on the leaves. Maybe that is why there are spots on your plants.


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## Paphman910 (Jan 29, 2014)

Forgot to ask, How long does it take your potting medium to dry out?


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## Secundino (Jan 29, 2014)

Hot sunny day? LOL


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## Paphman910 (Jan 30, 2014)

Secundino said:


> Hot sunny day? LOL



I meant that if the plant was sitting on a windowsill and the sunlight hits the plant and causes the leaves to get quite warm even on a winter day


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## Ozpaph (Jan 30, 2014)

Those last pictures suggest insect damage to me, too. I believe in the 'blunderbuss' approach - use everything! (insecticide and fungicide).
Is there a local orchid society meeting close to you? You could phone them and ask if there was some way an experienced member could look at your plants. You could also take a few to the meeting but leave them outside or away from the other plants and ask if someone could look at them. 
The length of this thread shows that 'orchid' people like to help each other.


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## The Mutant (Jan 30, 2014)

Paphman910 said:


> Same stuff as EndAll.
> 
> Did you spray it during the evenings? If you spray it during the hot sunny day, it could cause blemishes on the leaves. Maybe that is why there are spots on your plants.
> 
> Forgot to ask, How long does it take your potting medium to dry out?


Yup, but it seems to be quite strong. All the blemishes they got, appeared after the second spraying, so it might have been too much for some of the Paphs.

It totally depends on the plant in question, since they all are in more or less different sized pots, and some dry faster than others (for no apparent reason that I can see), while others take their sweet time. I would say at least all are watered once a week, the smaller Paphs more often since their pots are so small (5 cm or 2"). I still need to learn how often to water them though.



Ozpaph said:


> Those last pictures suggest insect damage to me, too. I believe in the 'blunderbuss' approach - use everything! (insecticide and fungicide).
> Is there a local orchid society meeting close to you? You could phone them and ask if there was some way an experienced member could look at your plants. You could also take a few to the meeting but leave them outside or away from the other plants and ask if someone could look at them.
> The length of this thread shows that 'orchid' people like to help each other.


I'm glad that this is exactly what I'm doing at the moment. Insecticide has been used, now I'm waiting for a better fungicide to arrive and finish the job. 

I do have a meeting close to me, but I've forgotten to apply for membership, and I really don't want to take my Paphs out into the blizzard. And since I'm such a genius and removed all the suspicious looking tissue, there's nothing to see, except some heavily pruned Paphs.


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## papheteer (Jan 31, 2014)

Great advices have been given already. I have only one to add. Try and give them the best growing conditions. Its never gonna be perfect. Don't fuzz over them every second and expect the worst to always turn out. "Ignore" them and hope for the best. Works for me.


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## Rick (Jan 31, 2014)

Ozpaph said:


> Those last pictures suggest insect damage to me, too. I believe in the 'blunderbuss' approach - use everything! (insecticide and fungicide).
> The length of this thread shows that 'orchid' people like to help each other.



I agree

Those random spots all over the leaves are not typical of rots that frequently all run up from the base of the leaves. That funny pimpling also looks buggy rather than bacterial or fungal.

Excessive bug damage could set up a plant for secondary pathogens kicking in, but in some ways it looks more like "bruising" caused by bug bites.


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## Rick (Jan 31, 2014)

John M said:


> I've seen this in Phrag besseae. The leaf tissue seems to liquify on the inside, while the outside remains dry. It was a calcium deficiency. I solved the problem quickly by feeding with Phostrogen, which contains calcium and Magnesium. Nowadays, I use Calcium Nitrate and Epsome salts in my regular feeding schedule and I never see this problem anymore.



Problem with calcium/mg deficiencies, is that plants in the presence of even moderate K concentrations will preferentially take that up no matter how much Ca they are sitting in.

So the Blomstra additions would constantly negate boosted Ca/Mg with either potting mix ammendments or liquid supplements. 

Mutant, if you think that growth/leaf color is poor with straight K lite, then boost P and Mg instead by using dilute use of Dynagrow Bloom boost Mag Pro. That will keep the K down will boosting P and Mg.


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## DavidCampen (Feb 1, 2014)

Rick said:


> Problem with calcium/mg deficiencies, is that plants in the presence of even moderate K concentrations will preferentially take that up no matter how much Ca they are sitting in.


That is your thesis, but you have presented essentially no evidence that it is true.


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## Rick (Feb 1, 2014)

DavidCampen said:


> That is your thesis, but you have presented essentially no evidence that it is true.



The old 1978 Cornell study has been discussed and presented before.
That one is actually based on orchids.
The Winkler and Zotz 2010 bromeliad study is another.
And you could look through a bunch of agri data for domesticated crop plants.

Not just a theory, but a well study plant physiology understanding.


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## Rick (Feb 1, 2014)

DavidCampen said:


> That is your thesis, but you have presented essentially no evidence that it is true.



And I have yet to come across any leaf tissue data indicating that you can force plants to take up Ca in presence of moderate to high K.


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## DavidCampen (Feb 1, 2014)

Rick said:


> The old 1978 Cornell study has been discussed and presented before.
> That one is actually based on orchids.
> The Winkler and Zotz 2010 bromeliad study is another.
> And you could look through a bunch of agri data for domesticated crop plants.
> ...



Not even a theory, just your bizarre and baseless thesis.


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## SlipperFan (Feb 1, 2014)

Rick, don't take the bait.


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## Stone (Feb 1, 2014)

Rick said:


> And I have yet to come across any leaf tissue data indicating that you can force plants to take up Ca in presence of moderate to high K.



I've read that high amounts of K (that is grossly imbalanced amounts) can inhibit Ca and Mg uptake. Problem is that I have yet to see a definative report that shows what constitutes ''grossly imbalanced'' 
As an example, take another look at andre's Paph niveum:http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32826. This is fed with hydroponic fertilizer which in every sample I have seen is loaded with K (usually as high as the N content) I don't see any problems with this plant!
Also ammonium will inhibit Ca and Mg uptake but it will also inhibit uptake of K so the matter is probably more complex than we think.


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## Rick (Feb 2, 2014)

John M said:


> I've seen this in Phrag besseae. The leaf tissue seems to liquify on the inside, while the outside remains dry. It was a calcium deficiency. I solved the problem quickly by feeding with Phostrogen, which contains calcium and Magnesium. Nowadays, I use Calcium Nitrate and Epsome salts in my regular feeding schedule and I never see this problem anymore.



I don't have the whole paper (since I can access it only for $40) but this could be a good read:

Calcium-Related Physiological Disorders of Plants
F Bangerth 1979
Annual Review of Phytopathology Vol 17: 97-122

Excerpt from the free access introduction.


" Many of the physiological disorders afflicting both storage organs, such as fruits , certain vegetables, roots, and young, enclosed leafy structures are related to Ca content of the respective tissues. Improving their Ca content normally diminishes the occurrence of the respective disease. Shear (157) has listed more than 30 Ca-deficiency disorders and this list probably will be extended as research in the field proceeds. These disorders are believed to be due to inefficient distribution of Ca rather than poor Ca uptake. This problem is illustrated by the observation that leaves contain considerably more Ca than storage organs or the young enclosed tissues from the same plant (19,23,126). Poor Ca distribution within the plant can also explain both the frequent appearance of Ca-deficiency disorders even on Ca-rich soils and the failure of Ca fertilization..."


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## Rick (Feb 2, 2014)

Stone said:


> but ammonium will also inhibit uptake of K so the matter is probably more complex than we think.



Yes noted in more than one source (including the Cornell document). Which may go back to why urea based ferts may see better results than nitrate based ferts with high K.


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## Rick (Feb 2, 2014)

Stone said:


> As an example, take another look at andre's Paph niveum:http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32826. This is fed with hydroponic fertilizer which in every sample I have seen is loaded with K (usually as high as the N content) I don't see any problems with this plant!



I don't either, but:
1) no NPKK content is listed so concentration presumed
2) his dilution rate is high
3) his frequency of application is low ("once every month or two")
4) his substrate is inorganic and low retentive so most of what goes in goes right out.
5) uses tap water of unknown hardness (but certainly harder than rain or RO water)

So compared to the "weakly weekly" program in a bark based matrix his total K application is very low even if the actual fertilizer composition is comparable to MSU.


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## Stone (Feb 2, 2014)

Rick said:


> > So compared to the "weakly weekly" program in a bark based matrix his total K application is very low even if the actual fertilizer composition is comparable to MSU
> 
> 
> .



Weakly weekly is a bit unsatifactory as a recommendation. It could mean anything. For instance I would consider 1/2 strength every week way to much. 1/2 strength every month with water in between more acceptable. But I would prefer 1/8 strength every week or maybe 1/16 strength every watering ok as well.

Full strength once per month
1/2 every 2 weeks
1/4 every week
1/8 every 4 days
The plant will see the same amount of nutrient with all of these but there's a big difference in EC fluctuation!
So yes if ''weakly weekly'' means 1/2 strength every week then I agree it is too much in many cases. It also gets complicated when you have to factor in plain water irrigations.
I remember proposing a while back that a very very weak solution given with every watering might be best. Lance (GW) said it wouldn't work.
It is almost getting to the ''old fashioned'' way of giving a little blood and bone once on spring and once in Autumn! It worked with the humusy composts used then but maybe not with the modern bony type mixes.


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