# pyrethrin recommendation?



## Justin (Jan 13, 2013)

Can anyone recommend an affordable pyrethrin concentrate? 

Have been trying to eradicate some mealy bugs in my collection and insecticidal soap is only keeping them in check. I grow my orchids inside the house so want to add pyrethrin since it is less noxious than other chemicals...

Am hoping to find a good concentrate that i can add to the soap mix for under $50...any recommendations?


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## Ozpaph (Jan 13, 2013)

Will pyrethrin actually kill them?
Have you tried a q-tip and alcohol (since you're indoors).


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## Ozpaph (Jan 13, 2013)

I found this refernce, ? might be useful. http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/r280300711.html
I undestand pyrethrum needs to directly contact the insect and isn't systemic. Could you take the plants outside (oops, its winter in Ohio), or somewhere and spray them with a systemic insecticide?


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## emydura (Jan 13, 2013)

Ozpaph said:


> I found this refernce, ? might be useful. http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/r280300711.html
> I undestand pyrethrum needs to directly contact the insect and isn't systemic. Could you take the plants outside (oops, its winter in Ohio), or somewhere and spray them with a systemic insecticide?



I agree it has to be systemic for mealy bug. If you can see some mealy bug there is a lot more you can't see. A mixture of rogor and white oil is the only thing that works for me. I hate using that stuff though.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jan 13, 2013)

Pyrethrin works well on any mealies it contacts. I've never found soap or oil to be effective on them (although oil is effective on scale). The problem with pyrethrin is that you have to spray every day, just about. On the other hand, it is very safe, and it doesn't damage flower buds. I hate the way mealies get between the bud and the bract on paphs!


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## Rick (Jan 14, 2013)

Have you thought about using Merrit? It's a systemic

There are some Bayor products available at regular garden supply (Like the "Rose and Bloom") spray.
Merrit is the trade name for Imacloprid (I know I just butchered the spelling so look it up later). But it is very effective on scale and mealies.

Interesting though, that even though its a systemic, it apparently does not transfer into the flower spikes. So you still need some direct contact with the mealies on flowers.


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## Erythrone (Jan 14, 2013)

Why don't you use Botanigard?


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## goldenrose (Jan 14, 2013)

How about the SucraShield thru Ray, suppose to be effective on all soft body insects?


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## Ray (Jan 14, 2013)

Part of the problem with mealie bugs is that they can colonize the root system, making it particularly difficult to eradicate lithe population.

I highly recommend adding Enstar AQ to the insecticide application, as it prevents the maturation of all stages of the critter's development, so it cannot breed.


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## SlipperFan (Jan 14, 2013)

Do you sell Enstar, Ray???


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## abax (Jan 15, 2013)

Enstar is o.k., but Orthene Wettable Powder 97% is a systemic that you can
drench through the potting medium with no need to spray. It stinks and
it's probably dangerous to use inside unless you have a garage or some place to move the plants to until the Orthene dries. However, you'll never
see mealies again...ever. A large-ish can is about $18.00 and lasts practically forever.


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## NYEric (Jan 15, 2013)

Real men don't take plants out to the garage!


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## Ray (Jan 15, 2013)

1) No, I don't, Dot. It is expensive; Google is your friend.

2) Angela, Enstar is not an alternative, it is an adjunct to insecticides. I have seen no data that tells me how long a systemic insecticide stays active in the plant, and I have no doubt that it varies by chemical and plant, so maybe it is ineffective by the time a newly-laid egg hatches. If it has been exposed to the IGR however, it's not going to mature, so it has been taken out of the repopulation equation.

I have seen much quicker infestation eradication when using it with insecticides - including Orthene - than using them alone.


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## Justin (Jan 15, 2013)

thanks for the recommendations and discussion everyone!


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## abax (Jan 16, 2013)

I don't know very much about Enstar's effectiveness. I do know that Orthene does the job and is much less expensive. I don't have to use it very much just because it's so effective. I do drench newly bought and
repotted plants once with Cleary's and then wait a week and do a drench
with Orthene...or vice versa if I'm suspicious. I like to pull out the big guns rather than struggle with less effective methods. I've even gotten
used to the smell as long as I vacate the greenhouse quickly! :>)

Eric, do real men choke up and fall over in the house???? Sometimes your comments
make my day a bit funnier. Thank you for that.


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## SlipperFan (Jan 16, 2013)

How long does it take for the smell to leave your greenhouse?


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## Paphman910 (Jan 17, 2013)

How about Azomax from General Hydroponics?

Paphman910


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## abax (Jan 17, 2013)

Usually the smell is gone the next day if the louvers are open. In winter
a bit longer...a couple of days.


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## SlipperFan (Jan 17, 2013)

abax said:


> Usually the smell is gone the next day if the louvers are open. In winter
> a bit longer...a couple of days.


Yuck!!!


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## Leo Schordje (Jan 18, 2013)

I have been using a 2nd generation synthetic chlorinated pyrethrin, Decathalon WP. I started using it as a WP (wettable powder) alternative to Mavrik. Mavrik is also a chlorinated synthetic pyrethrin. Both are not too expensive. But I never use them alone. I always add Enstar to the mixture. It is the combo that is very effective. I have been able to go as much as 18 months between spraying. Two applications, about 10 days apart, and the collection is clean. 
My Source:

http://www.hummert.com

Decathalon has a lot less odor than Mavrik

Given the value of your collection, you should not limit yourself to $50 or less, spend the money on something that works. Get the 'good stuff', and save your plants. 

By the way, there are many chemicals that do work. Some of the other suggestions were quite good. Yes, Orthene can work, I don't like that I have to keep re-applying it. Apparently locally we have some critters resistant to Orthene, two applications does not completely clean up the collection.


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## keithrs (Jan 18, 2013)

OG Bio War has an Bio control for all sorts of insects. It uses fungi to kill insects. I have not used it mainly because I have no need for it. 

foliar pack


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## Justin (Jan 18, 2013)

great insight Leo. much appreciated. thanks again everyone.


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## Justin (Mar 25, 2013)

Just an update, went with Leo's recommendation of the Decathlon 20 WP and Enstar II AQ from Hummert, and it cleaned up the mealy bugs RIGHT QUICK. Took care of some scale too.

I could have spared myself much misery if I had started using this before. A little does go a long way too. Good stuff.


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## Stone (Mar 26, 2013)

Most pyrethrums only break down in a couple of days but there is also a slow release (encapsulated pyrethrum) and one called permathrin which lasts for many weeks and is very effective. Check out your local agricutural supplier.


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## cnycharles (Mar 26, 2013)

to answer the first question, you can find simple pyrethrin concentrates at box stores and others. about orthene, in some states it is no longer legal to sell/buy it. how much did the enstar 2 cost? when I bought some from a wholesaler a number of years ago, it was $80 for a tiny bottle! that plus the decathlon must have cost well over your $50 target (just curious)


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## Justin (Mar 27, 2013)

Through hummert the Decathlon was $81 for a 8 oz jar of powder, and the Enstar II AQ was $136 for a quart. For my small collection of plants, (<200) that should last many many years depending on shelflife.

Similar to Leo's experience, I must have spent hundreds in the past on "OTC" products that weren't very effective. Definitely worth it for products that work immediately and are effective in extremely small doses.


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## cnycharles (Mar 27, 2013)

that's probably about the same price as I would have expected.

by the way, never put enstar into plastic bottles or measuring containers... it starts to melt them right away! the last time I bought some, I was going to split the bottle with someone else and was measuring it in a little plastic measuring scoop, and the cup started to sag and melt! had to quickly find something glass or at least more durable to put it into quickly
enstar has an rei like some other igr's, even though they aren't harmful to humans. the 'dissolving' agent in enstar and others is pretty harsh so once it's dispersed then it's safe; the active ingredient isn't harmful


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## DavidCampen (Mar 27, 2013)

cnycharles said:


> by the way, never put enstar into plastic bottles or measuring containers... it starts to melt them right away!


That is true of the old "Enstar" that came in glass bottles. What is sold now is "Enstar II AQ"; it is a water based dispersion and comes in plastic bottles.

The new Enstar II AQ (I guess that the AQ stands for "aqueous") is supposed to be less likely to exhibit any phytotoxicity. Has anyone experienced phytotoxicity with the old solvent based Enstar? I thought I might have, but then I was using other materials at the time and the phytotoxicity was quite likely from something else but now I am a bit fearful of using the old solvent based Enstar.


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## cnycharles (Mar 27, 2013)

oh, okay; good. we usually put it through foggers and didn't really have high volume on a plant. if you were using the old kind and weren't putting it on flowers that were going to be displayed in a show or had been flowering for a while, I would try it on one or two and see. if it did, then you could always wait and spray when the flowers are done

I don't ever remember there being a problem with enstar II and flower problems, and never plant problems, but then we weren't spraying orchids, so it'd be better to be safe


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## Ray (Mar 28, 2013)

DavidCampen said:


> That is true of the old "Enstar" that came in glass bottles. What is sold now is "Enstar II AQ"; it is a water based dispersion and comes in plastic bottles.
> 
> The new Enstar II AQ (I guess that the AQ stands for "aqueous") is supposed to be less likely to exhibit any phytotoxicity. Has anyone experienced phytotoxicity with the old solvent based Enstar? I thought I might have, but then I was using other materials at the time and the phytotoxicity was quite likely from something else but now I am a bit fearful of using the old solvent based Enstar.



David, I used the solvent-based stuff with acephate or imidicloprid - sometimes both at once- and never saw any signs of phytotoxicity.


Ray Barkalow
Sent using Tapatalk


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