# roth seedlings



## ehanes7612 (Jun 13, 2013)

so i would just like to see how i am doing with growing..all my deflasked roth seedlings are 4.5 years old and seem incredibly slow..until last summer i grew in CHC and i think they slowly suffered...but they seem to be doing bettter now (switched to klite last year too, or was it the year before , cant remember)
i have the following crosses 

Gigantic x Samurai (4 to 6 in LS)
Gigantic x Perfection (4 to 6 in LS)
Sams choice x Perfection (6 to 10 in LS)
Jims Krull x Can club (4 inch to 6 in LS)
Oriental red x MM (two at 12 " LS and the rest between 8 and 6 inches)
Golden Boy x Giant WIngs (5 to 6 in LS)

I sold all the smaller ones as compots a couple years ago, so these are the largest of the bunch..but who knows..those compots may have outgrown these

SOOO, i was wondering how others are faring with their deflasked seedlings of these crosses


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## Stone (Jun 13, 2013)

I have a gigantic x perfection and a krull x CC. I got them 2 years ago. They were about 2-3 inches across and very yellow. Now they are about 6-7 inches across with good colour. It seems they are picking up speed well. I will be looking for a spike in 2 years I think.


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## Justin (Jun 13, 2013)

My conditions are not perfect, but for me the fastest roths from flask reach BS at about 7-8 years. 

i have several flasks from the same vintage as yours and we are about on the same track. The leaders of the pack are at 10-12", and the majority are at 4-6". (I cull runts BTW.)

I have plants from a year or two before that batch that have some pack leaders at BS w/ new starts now (Rex Jr. x MM Best) and (Sam's Choice x MM Best).

My OZ seedlings are BS now and i *think they are 8 years old. I have some of the various "RO" and "New Bear" Taiwan crosses BS now too but none have flowered for me yet. 

From all the above I think right now I have about 125 roth seedlings but I also have around 25 mature plants/divisions in 5" pots or bigger.


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## Fabrice (Jun 13, 2013)

Modern rothschildianums have to bloom in 5-6-7 years max.

The size you announced is not normal. There's something what's not good. Except if the seedlings quality were very bad.

But with all those different crosses, it's probably not the reason.


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## ehanes7612 (Jun 13, 2013)

Fabrice said:


> Modern rothschildianums have to bloom in 5-6-7 years max.
> 
> The size you announced is not normal. There's something what's not good. Except if the seedlings quality were very bad.
> 
> But with all those different crosses, it's probably not the reason.



so you grow these crosses?..i know the general 'hype' about what is to be expected...looking for actual hands on experience with these crosses


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## NYEric (Jun 13, 2013)

What are you growing them in now Ed?


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## Rick (Jun 13, 2013)

Also what rate of feeding are you using?

For these babies I'd go down to 25 ppm N max.


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## Stone (Jun 13, 2013)

Rick said:


> Also what rate of feeding are you using?
> 
> For these babies I'd go down to 25 ppm N max.



I must disagree, these will handle 100ppm N no problem and will look the better for it. Also use at least 50% ammonium N and I wouldn't be too worried about K
( I should add thats assuming they have good roots and plenty of warmth and light! )


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## Stone (Jun 13, 2013)

This is Gigantic x Perfection. Like I said it was about 2 inches across and yellow when it I recieved it. 2 years later ( actually about 18 months) it is 8 1/2'' across. It is fed with osmocote as well as liquid feeds. Easily gets 100ppm N. K is standard. Not slow and quite healthy and fast.


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## eggshells (Jun 13, 2013)

I got Oriental Red x MM. It's a little less than 4 years from flask. Wayne gave it me last year at 9-10 inches If I remember correctly. It's about 20 inches now. I also use slow release on my plants (20-7-10) on top of of my normal feeding of (25-10-10).

















I also got a Highlander x Gigantic from Wayne a few months ago. He grew it nicely as well.


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## emydura (Jun 13, 2013)

It is looking good Mike. Nice and healthy and good colour. Might be a bit more than two years to flower though, unless it really flies.


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## Stone (Jun 14, 2013)

eggshells said:


> I got Oriental Red x MM. It's a little less than 4 years from flask. Wayne gave it me last year at 9-10 inches If I remember correctly. It's about 20 inches now. I also use slow release on my plants (20-7-10) on top of of my normal feeding of (25-10-10).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Very nice eggshells. Look at that colour and shine! This THE way to grow them!!


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## Stone (Jun 14, 2013)

emydura said:


> QUOTE] Might be a bit more than two years to flower though, unless it really flies


.[/QUOTE]

Oh yeh thats wishfull thinking for sure


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## ehanes7612 (Jun 14, 2013)

i am now using 50 ppm in bark perlite mix..i think growing in CHC they weren't getting enough water (or something else that presented a problem with CHC)..although most plants show a slow anecdotal change ..some have shown remarkable changes in new leaf development since switching to bark..the OR x MM seem pretty hardy, actually my measurement on the OR x MM is about 16 inch LS for two of them ...but the other crosses seem more finicky... i think i may have lost some advantage by growing in CHC


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## The Mutant (Jun 14, 2013)

eggshells said:


> I got Oriental Red x MM. It's a little less than 4 years from flask. Wayne gave it me last year at 9-10 inches If I remember correctly. It's about 20 inches now. I also use slow release on my plants (20-7-10) on top of of my normal feeding of (25-10-10).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's really really nice! I have a sibling to this one, and it's not such a nice dark green colour at all. I'm starting to think that they all suffer from some sort on nutrient deficiency, since they are all so pale... Or, it could be that I kept the T5 too close before. I've moved it up now.

I have three (four?) roth seedlings, x sib Jim Crull x CC, x sib 'Oriental Red' x 'Mont Miliais', and 'Starship' x self, but since I grow them on a windowsill, none are growing exceptionally fast. The ones form Orchid Inn have all lost leaves, but I think they have acclimated to my conditions now and established themselves, at least the 'Oriental Red' x 'MM' since it has started to put out a new root. The 'Jim Crull' x 'CC' is the poor thing I burned under the T5... No active root growth as far as I can see, but its new leaf is growing well. Don't know if it'll make it yet or not. The 'Starship' x self is the one doing the best together with my acclaimed MM x self (but I still don't believe that's it's a real MM selfling). Pictures to come later, now I'm off to have a nice dinner together with my colleagues.


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## Bjorn (Jun 14, 2013)

Stone said:


> Very nice eggshells. Look at that colour and shine! This THE way to grow them!!



Mike/ eggshells
Are you feeding with all nitrate nitrogen or is there some urea/ammonia in there?
B


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## The Mutant (Jun 14, 2013)

Here are photos of my baby roths. First out is 'Starship' x self:

How it looked when I got it:





How it looks now (it has turned so yellow, that there must be something wrong...):





The acclamied 'MM' x self when I got it:





Now:





The x sib 'Jim Krull' x 'CC' when I got it:





And what's left of it now...:





The x sib 'Oriental Red' x 'MM' when I got it:





And now:





I can't believe how yellow they've all gotten! Why is this and how can i fix it? It can't only be that I had the T5 too low, it must be something else too. 

I need to stay away from roths I think...


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## eggshells (Jun 14, 2013)

Bjorn said:


> Mike/ eggshells
> Are you feeding with all nitrate nitrogen or is there some urea/ammonia in there?
> B



Hi Bjorn, here is the N breakdown of 25-10-10

Nitrate Nitrogen 3.0%
Ammoniacal Nitrogen 7.6%
Urea Nitrogen 14.4%


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## Justin (Jun 14, 2013)

mutant those are way too yellow. cut back the light and add some epsom salts to your feeding (1 tsp/gallon).


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## eggshells (Jun 14, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> I can't believe how yellow they've all gotten! Why is this and how can i fix it? It can't only be that I had the T5 too low, it must be something else too.
> 
> I need to stay away from roths I think...



Sorry to hear that. I don't think that T5HO has enough intensity to do that to your plant. Especially on a 12 hr photo period. Clearly It's a malnutrition issue.


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## Cheyenne (Jun 14, 2013)

That is exactly what my plants started to look like (especially multi florals) when i used all nitrate feeds. Now I throw in some 30-10-10 with alot of urea like eggshells and they all have recovered or are almost there. Now they are nice and green. By the way that is with no potting amendments like oyster shell and lime and they still didn't like the all nitrate formula.


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## The Mutant (Jun 14, 2013)

Justin said:


> mutant those are way too yellow. cut back the light and add some epsom salts to your feeding (1 tsp/gallon).


Is this really caused by lack of epsom salts? Not urea/ammonia? 



eggshells said:


> Sorry to hear that. I don't think that T5HO has enough intensity to do that to your plant. Especially on a 12 hr photo period. Clearly It's a malnutrition issue.


Okay, Bjorn has told me to give them more N. 



Cheyenne said:


> That is exactly what my plants started to look like (especially multi florals) when i used all nitrate feeds. Now I throw in some 30-10-10 with alot of urea like eggshells and they all have recovered or are almost there. Now they are nice and green. By the way that is with no potting amendments like oyster shell and lime and they still didn't like the all nitrate formula.


I have a 5-5-5 fertilizer and a 4-3-5. Which one is the best to mix with K-lite?


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## likespaphs (Jun 14, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> Is this really caused by lack of epsom salts?....



the epsom will green them up quickly


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## The Mutant (Jun 14, 2013)

likespaphs said:


> the epsom will green them up quickly


Okay, I'll add that too.


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## Bjorn (Jun 14, 2013)

eggshells said:


> Hi Bjorn, here is the N breakdown of 25-10-10
> 
> Nitrate Nitrogen 3.0%
> Ammoniacal Nitrogen 7.6%
> Urea Nitrogen 14.4%



Just what I thought. Last year I confined to k-lite i.e. No ammonium and the plants got yellower. In the fall I started mixing k-lite with an urea based foliar feed, lowering pH down to around 5with citric acid, and voila, all greened up during a few weeks. Since then it has been a 50:50mix, and I am happy with that


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## Bjorn (Jun 14, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> Okay, Bjorn has told me to give them more N



No, I have not! I told you to get some ammonium-N


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## eggshells (Jun 14, 2013)

Bjorn said:


> Just what I thought. Last year I confined to k-lite i.e. No ammonium and the plants got yellower. In the fall I started mixing k-lite with an urea based foliar feed, lowering pH down to around 5with citric acid, and voila, all greened up during a few weeks. Since then it has been a 50:50mix, and I am happy with that



I had the same problem as you. Please see:

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25209&page=3


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## Cheyenne (Jun 14, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> Is this really caused by lack of epsom salts? Not urea/ammonia?
> 
> 
> Okay, Bjorn has told me to give them more N.
> ...



The ratio of NPK is not what is important in this case. It is what the fertilizer is made of that is important. I used 30-10-10 because it was low in P and K which I didn't need more of and high in urea and ammonical nitrogen which is what I needed. So to answer your question, read the labels and find a fertilizer that has alot more urea/ammonium as the nitrogen source.


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## Justin (Jun 14, 2013)

I was using all Calcium Nitrate as well, but for the summer i have switched to using a 30-10-10 urea-based fertilizer this summer (still rotate in some calcium nitrate-based low-K every third watering) and my plants are looking greener. 

In the winter I will go back to favoring the Calcium Nitrate/low-K in the rotation.


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## gonewild (Jun 14, 2013)

Justin said:


> and my plants are looking greener.



Is greener healthier or just more appealing to look at?

Don't assume that greener is automatically better.

What is the visual symptom of excessive Nitrogen?


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## ehanes7612 (Jun 14, 2013)

gonewild said:


> Is greener healthier or just more appealing to look at?
> 
> Don't assume that greener is automatically better.
> 
> What is the visual symptom of excessive Nitrogen?



I prefer to grow my multis in the light green range, mutant's example of MMx self (2nd pic) ( as some of the best growing and blooming multis i have seen are light green in color) ...i had a compot of roth seedlings that were dark green growing in CHC that was extremely decomposed (there was an assumption on ST that it was providing excessive N)..they had good roots ..within 3 months after repotting they went yellow...while all my other roths i repotted from CHC (which was still fairly fresh) to bark started growing better and staying the same light green ( I have read accounts of people having plants be great for the first six months in CHC then going downhill dramatically..i believe it)
My roth seedlings are doing well now and putting up healthy leaves in Klite 50 ppm but i have a mix now that provides plenty of water and i make sure the roots stay wet . In fact i had problems with many of my sanderianum hybrids yellowing too much under lights (the color mutants example of 2nd pic of starship).. which i contribute to their drying out too much in CHC, but i think those sanderianum hybrids are more forgiving than roth seedlings, as they bloomed well and never showed any other negative signs. I am in the greenhouse now...and have repotted everything in a bark perlite mix that retains more free water. All my multis have since put up greener leaves (in the light green range) and just look healthier with that nice sheen


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## ehanes7612 (Jun 14, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> Here are photos of my baby roths. First out is 'Starship' x self:
> 
> How it looked when I got it:
> 
> ...


the color on the MM x self (2nd pic) seems healthy and the color i shoot for, this plant looks healthy and seems to be growing well, the last two have problems that indicate lack of water (either roots are damaged or you arent watering enough)..I am going to take a guess here and say that the change in your plants is a combination of repotting (if you did) and not watering enough for these two. The first plant is growing well but as other have said seems like it it may not be getting as much nitrogen as before, it may adjust to your new conditions and eventually put out greener leaves ..Roths like lots of water and from what i can tell with the composition of your mix it could be watered almost every day (unless you have moss mixed into the lower parts , but i cant tell from the pic), ..also, growing under lights, your plants are gonna dry out more


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## ehanes7612 (Jun 14, 2013)

likespaphs said:


> the epsom will green them up quickly



i have never actually seen any plants green up for use of epsom salts and i have tried it before..perhaps there is some water chemistry i have that prevents it..maybe it was the CHC preventing it


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## Trithor (Jun 14, 2013)

ehanes7612 said:


> i have never actually seen any plants green up for use of epsom salts and i have tried it before..perhaps there is some water chemistry i have that prevents it..maybe it was the CHC preventing it



I think it depends on if the plants were recieving too little Mg in the first place. This depends a lot on the water source. Borhole/well water is likely to have significant ammounts of Mg and Ca, however council/mains water often does not have high levels, and obviously rain/RO has non. If you water with high Mg water, the addition of Epsom will not have an effect, however if you are using rain water, and you fertilizer has a low Mg profile, the result can and will be dramatic. it goes bak to many threads, each emphasising the need to know what is in the water you are using as the first step in trying to solve any deficiencies or toxicities.
Mutant, I would suggest you check your photo exposures first in order to compare 'apples with apples' and then if you are still unhappy with the green colour of your multis, then to check your water chemistry before you start a whole alchemy waltz with your fertilizers


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## ehanes7612 (Jun 14, 2013)

Trithor said:


> I think it depends on if the plants were recieving too little Mg in the first place. This depends a lot on the water source. Borhole/well water is likely to have significant ammounts of Mg and Ca, however council/mains water often does not have high levels, and obviously rain/RO has non. If you water with high Mg water, the addition of Epsom will not have an effect, however if you are using rain water, and you fertilizer has a low Mg profile, the result can and will be dramatic. it goes bak to many threads, each emphasising the need to know what is in the water you are using as the first step in trying to solve any deficiencies or toxicities.s


yeah, i was thinking my plants received enough Mg anyway


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## The Mutant (Jun 14, 2013)

Okay, I'll see if I can find some 30-10-10 fertilizer and use together with the K-lite.

Neither of the two last roths had any great root systems when I got them and I got them in October I think so they were not in a growth period really. 

About 1/4 of the substrate is sphagnum, so they stay moist pretty long. I think these are the multis I water the most, but I'm very scared to over water them.

About the pictures, I know that the light is different in the old and new pics, BUT the roths are too yellow, especially 'Starship' (which also happens to be the one being repotted a month ago and which had a great root system).

*Bjorn:* I'm sorry and stand corrected.


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## Stone (Jun 14, 2013)

Bjorn said:


> Mike/ eggshells
> Are you feeding with all nitrate nitrogen or is there some urea/ammonia in there?
> B



Very little nitrate Bjorn, maybe 5%. Mainly Urea.


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## Stone (Jun 14, 2013)

gonewild said:


> > Is greener healthier or just more appealing to look at?
> 
> 
> Healthier
> ...


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## Rick (Jun 14, 2013)

ehanes7612 said:


> yeah, i was thinking my plants received enough Mg anyway



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpentine_soil

Roths are found over serpentine geology. It's a pretty unique habitat for plants.

Nutrient impoverished, but backwards in Ca:Mg ratio.

Looking at leaf tissue data from serpentine sites though, the Ca:Mg ratio is not reversed (its still more Ca than Mg!!).

It could very well be that the problem is not lack of Mg, but too much Ca.

In all organisms there is a competition between Ca and Mg. Since Ca is a critical player in plant metabolism, then plants from serpentine may be predisposed to picking up Ca at all costs, and high Ca blocks Mg uptake. Same as the excess K causes blockage of Ca/Mg uptake in plants.

In most cases you want to supply Ca to plants at greater rates than Mg, but serpentine plants may want a more even balance.


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## Rick (Jun 14, 2013)

Cheyenne said:


> By the way that is with no potting amendments like oyster shell and lime and they still didn't like the all nitrate formula.



Cheyenne. At one point I thought you said you used well water.(?) 

Or are you using RO or rain water?

Typical hard well water will supply 50 or more ppm of Ca, and 100ppm of alkalinity. So no potting amendments needed at that rate.


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## ehanes7612 (Jun 15, 2013)

Rick said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpentine_soil
> 
> Roths are found over serpentine geology. It's a pretty unique habitat for plants.
> 
> ...



Like I said .. All is much improved since reporting out of CHC into bark..i should also say that i never saw any darkening of any of the paphs i had, with epsom salts


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## Rick (Jun 15, 2013)

I found a paper by Proctor on serpentine forest soils in SE Asia.

Even has a couple data points for Sabah. What is suprising to me is that the pH is so low for something derived from ultramafic rock.

Mt Silam (300 M)
pH = 5.8
K = 0.17 (mEqiv/100g)
Ca = 2.3 (mEqiv/100g)
Mg = 15.7 (mEqiv/100g)

Mt Kinabalu (1200M)
pH = 4.8
K = 0.39 (mEqiv/100g)
Ca = 2.5 (mEqiv/100g)
Mg = 2.2 (mEqiv/100g)

No N given Silicates are probably high.


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## ehanes7612 (Jun 15, 2013)

Rick said:


> I found a paper by Proctor on serpentine forest soils in SE Asia.
> 
> Even has a couple data points for Sabah. What is suprising to me is that the pH is so low for something derived from ultramafic rock.
> 
> ...


but wouldn't ultramific rock have high FeO that would lower the pH?


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## Rick (Jun 15, 2013)

http://www.firetailorchids.com.au/_pdfs/poole_and_seeley.pdf

Posting this one here too. I really urge to read the section on the push pull of N and Mg in the Cattleya section.


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## Rick (Jun 15, 2013)

ehanes7612 said:


> but wouldn't ultramific rock have high FeO that would lower the pH?



Must ultramific rock is not the high Fe type, but the Mg type.

I also believe both are hydroxyl/silicate forms that generate high pH in closer proximity regardless of Fe or Mg.

In serpentine sites in dryer climates it may be more common to see the pH shoot up over 8.0, but in these sites the combination of massive rain and carbon accumulation seem to have swamped out the alkalinity.

PM me your email address, and I send you the paper.


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