# Question about documents



## Shadow (Dec 18, 2006)

I have heard that if someone want his plant to be judged, he need documents to prove that the plant is legally obtained. Could someone explain what document or documents they are (I'm interested not only in USA rules but in European rules too)?
In my country all original documents (CITES and phytosanitary certificate) are taken by the custom and the custom gives a local certificate in local language that the plants are free from disease. I suppose this paper means nothing if I want, for example, to bring my plant to USA or Germany for judging?


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## NYEric (Dec 18, 2006)

I don't believe you can transport a _species_ to the USA w/out certs.


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## likespaphs (Dec 18, 2006)

a species Paph/Phrag etc, not without paperwork, perhaps a temporary import cert is available but i dunno.
i think all plants are also subject to inspection


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## Shadow (Dec 18, 2006)

NYEric said:


> I don't believe you can transport a _species_ to the USA w/out certs.


I agree with you. The problem is I don't know what documents I need to get my plant judged. Does somebody know what should I have? What sort of certificate?


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## littlefrog (Dec 18, 2006)

I believe the AOS ruling on some paph and phrag species and their hybrids has been formalized. Or at least this is what I got from the last business meeting at the judging center. We may now judge certain plants and their hybrids. However, these awards are provisional upon proof of status. This would include a receipt from a grower who has proof. So the new kovachii are fine, as long as you have a receipt from Glen Decker or one of the other legal importers. 

Phrag kovachii and a 'species' I'm sure is a variety of longifolium that has been here for 30 years that I can't remember the name of are the phrags that spring to mind. Most new paphs are still verboten, with the exception of vietnamense (and maybe a few others, I can't remember).


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## Ernie (Dec 19, 2006)

Paph. vietnamense and Ho Chi Minh obtained from Antec Labs are the only legal plants from the "new" vietnamese slippers (helenae, tranlienianum, hangianum...) that can be judged in the US. If you present viet or HCM for consideration, proof of source must be presented at exhibition (per judging committee). Although there are three awards to viet as of a couple months ago (two CHM's oddly) and not all state source in description. If you are outside the US different rules may apply, BUT you may not transport them into the US w/o proper documents from US and originating country authorities. Canadians get off the hook prety easy I understand. MOBG exhibited helenae 'Tower Grove' and got an award, but the curator was admonished for displaying the plant. Arg. I'm working on prepping the paper for Awards Quarterly and/or the Slipper Orchid Alliance publication. Frustrating situation. The best we can do is educate ourselves. 

As for kovachii and hybrids, at the trustees meeting in St Louis, I understand it was decided that the plants in question (Piping Rock and friends) should not be considered for judging for 'several years' based on the idea that plants from that batch will take some time to mature- however, several folks have sent legal flasks and seedlings to various parts of the earth with IDEAL growing conditions for contract growing where Phrags reach multi-growth, blooming size in 18 months +-. These legal plants should be available in bud/bloom in the very near future. 

-Ernie


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## Shadow (Dec 19, 2006)

Thanks. I feel this will be a pain. I don't know if I can temporarily export plant from my country if I have only receipt from the farm. I'm sure the custom should take only phytosanitary certificate and leave the CITES to me, but they don't.


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## Kyle (Dec 19, 2006)

Ernie said:


> Canadians get off the hook prety easy I understand. -Ernie



We canadians are completly off the hook:

We can get the 'illegal' easilly and at an excellent price, but they won't be considered for AOS judging. Or at least in my experience the judges ignore them. I've seen judges walk right by excellent HCM and not say a word.

Kyle


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## Per (Mar 20, 2007)

I have never had a plant judged, but it is something I might be interested in the future. Reading this thread, I have to ask, can I have a plant judged (say a lowii) that I know is from a dealer with a legal source, but I do not have the receipt from when I bought it? Until now, I have tossed my receipts, since I record all the information in an Excel spreadsheet. Do I have to have my receipts for judging, even if I know that the plant has been grown here from legal plants (almost all of them still have their original tags though), or is this requirement only for the most recently discovered plants? Is there anyway for me to show any of the several dozen plants I currently have that lack receipts?


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## likespaphs (Mar 21, 2007)

plants that were available before CITES went into effect do not need to have their parentage/legality proved... that is, unless you're importing them now. it's only the newly discovered species that have been found after CITES... at least, i think so....


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## Hien (Mar 21, 2007)

Kyle said:


> We canadians are completly off the hook:
> 
> We can get the 'illegal' easilly and at an excellent price, but they won't be considered for AOS judging. Or at least in my experience the judges ignore them. I've seen judges walk right by excellent HCM and not say a word.
> 
> Kyle




I think it is about time you guys should organize COS and give out :

CFCC=FCC/AOS
CAM=AM/AOS
CHCC=HCC/AOS

etc...etc...
I never heard of someone is not considered for miss universe because her parents are illegal aliens. If we are so strict, perhaps all the armeniacums awards should be stripped away.


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## practicallyostensible (Apr 28, 2007)

I was looking at a nice little Ho Chi Minh on e-bay and I asked the seller if he would provide me with the necessary paperwork so that if I wanted to, I could show the plant. The response that I got was that all I need is the invoice from him and then the judging organization could trace the plant back. He didn't want to give out the paperwork directly because people have, after seeing the paperwork, contacted his source and bought their entire supply. This didn't seem quite right to me and I was just wondering if this is a normal business practice, and if any of you knew if there was such a policy in AOS, or any other organization which traces the plant back for you.


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## Heather (Apr 28, 2007)

I'm pretty sure with regards to Ho Chi Minh that you need to have the certificate regarding the vietnamense. I know at the MOS show that they weren't pulled by the AOS because there were no certificates provided up front.


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## Roy (May 3, 2007)

I can't believe that the AOS is so harsh. Here in Australia you can get virtually anything in the way of Paph, Phrag or anything else "species".
I haven't seen any PK's in flowering size but I looked at an Outcross flask of PK's last weekend. In fact, there was a plant of Paph hangianum exhibited in flower here not that long after its discovery. Paph's tranliemianum, vietnamense etc are all over the place now. The only plants that are hard to get &/or are very expensive are sanderianum and tigrinum.
Hybrids from any of these are also freely available. NO paper work required.
Its almost like the word " conservation" doesn't exist in the AOS. Sure, the destructive clearing in the wild should be stopped, ( never will be ) but atleast the species will be kept going & increased by cultivation as many species already have been because of their natural habitat being destroyed by clearing for farming etc. 
I do not condone the theft from the wild by any means but one has to consider the survival of the species.
Just my thoughts.


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## Leo Schordje (May 3, 2007)

My understanding is the only for the new CITES I plants that the AOS wants to see a sales receipt or other item showing it was purchased in the USA. That would be the Viet Nam Paphs and Phrag kovachii. Everything else is business as usual.


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