# AOS Decline



## tim (May 12, 2013)

Hi,

I wonder if you all might help me. A quick search of ST did not find a recent thread on this topic; if there is one I'm not aware of a link would be great. At our annual AOS judging business meeting, we heard that the AOS currently has about 8600 members, down from a peak of 30000 members in the 1990s, and the same number as it had in 1960-something. Between these membership issues, the move to Fairchild, and recent issues on the board, I see an organization in trouble. I wonder why that is. As a fairly young accredited judge (I am 32), particularly one interested in history of paphs and awards to them, I have a real interest in seeing the AOS continue to be an organization that provides important services to its members and continues to judge flowers. So that we're all above board, my actual name is Tim Culbertson, and I'm a judge in the Northeast center, and I used to be in the Pacific Central center. Would you be willing to answer a question? Here's how you can help:

1. If you are a member of the AOS, why are you a member?

2. If you are not a member of the AOS, what could I suggest to the AOS that might help change your mind?

I'm not involved in the AOS Board, and I'm not a trustee. I have two little boys and very little time to be physically involved in the running of much of anything. Likewise I have no idea how much all the various things like awards and the magazine actually cost to produce. I know all those things are expensive, and I'm not sure they can be changed. What I am is young, in the organization, and loud, so maybe I could help. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of improvements in customer-service. Some suggestions I have include stuff like: be more friendly; digitize articles from the old AOS Bulletin and make them available online for free (sell advertising space); make an online version of AQ (or AQPlus or OrchidsPlus or whatever) that is fast and works on apple and specifically tablet OS and is free; have judgings be during weekends or times where people don't have to take time off work to attend...

Any suggestions would be great, either here or PM if you're more comfortable with that.

If you are a young person, you are in the demographic that is the most difficult to attract to a society, even a non-meeting based, "virtual" one like the AOS, so I would be most pleased to hear from you.

Sorry for the long post, and thanks for your help. I will actually take ideas to the AOS.
-Tim


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## ehanes7612 (May 12, 2013)

so i can register awards...i suspect the internet is the main culprit in a dwindling membership..IMO, the only real offer the AOS can make that is an incentive for membership is award registration..any information that a person wants to find on orchids is available on the internet..complete with millions of pictures and videos..i dont see how the AOS could provide any incentive for people not registering awards to pay for membership


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## limuhead (May 12, 2013)

As a former student judge in the AOS system I believe there are numerous problems that have led to the decline of the AOS. One of the concerns that many orchid enthusiasts that bring in plants for judging is that they are getting tired of seeing the judges award each others plants. Sure, I know that the judges will bring in plants that they know are awardable, they know what to look for. The average orchid society member that comes to shows, displays plants, and tirelessly volunteers thier time are the ones who the AOS needs to take care of. Judges need to recognize that they are the ones who are providing a service and should be appreciative that they have the priveledge to do so. Without the general public bringing in plants to judge they would be gone.


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## orchid527 (May 12, 2013)

I have been a member for most of the past 30 years. I did drop my membership a few years ago when it appeared as though the AOS was becoming the Florida Social Society, but re-joined to keep the cost of awards down. When I re-joined, I did a 2 year deal to get the discount coupon. When I tried to use it to buy some paphs, I was told the grower's paphs were already discounted. It did not seem that way from his prices. Anyway, I try to ignore the AOS at the national level and just focus on the people at the local level. The closest Judging Center is in Cincinnati and the judges there are excellent people. As individuals, they may win more awards than the rest of us, but to be honest, they are better growers. We have a cluster of societies in the area and we all suport one another. Our society is healthy and growing. In my opinion the AOS needs to focus on judging and awards. The magazine will need to be online only, and maybe just 6 times a year. Let everything else go and cut to the bone. Mike


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## paphreek (May 12, 2013)

Living in the hinterlands, the AOS' presence comes mainly in the form of the magazine and judging once a year at the St. Paul Winter Carnival Orchid Show.

Being a small orchid business, now, I continue to support the AOS and local societies as another way to connect to one part of my potential customer base, to keep current on happenings in the orchid world, and to support the judging system.

However, with the rise of the internet and its "free" content, combined with the escalating cost of producing a quality magazine, I think many former members, whose only connection with the society was the magazine, dropped their membership (subscriptions) just like they have dropped subscriptions to Newsweek, or Time, or their local newspaper.


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## Rick (May 12, 2013)

I am an AOS member, but didn't join until after getting a plant awarded. The discount for the awards for members was the incentive at that time).

I got into orchids for the "science" of it, rather than the social aspects of the local society or show aspects. At the time I was more impressed with the academic quality of Orchid Digest rather than the heavy commercial and society flavor of Orchids (about 10 years ago).

I now subscribe to both, and I have seen a change in Orchids to have an increased focus on the science/culture aspects of the orchid hobby over the years.

In general I see a decline over the last 10 years in interest in the orchid hobby. I don't think its all the fault of the AOS, and I think there a multiple demographic factors contributing that they have no control over. 

We have discussed this before on ST more than once.

I would really use a free access to AQ. I would even pay a bit more in membership fee for this.


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## Hera (May 12, 2013)

As a hobbyist the cost of joining just doesn't seem to be worth it. I'm not all that impressed with the magazine, I haven't been in a position to win awards and I have no plans to become a part of the judges training any time soon. I rather put my money towards good monographs, I rely on solid resources on the web and my local society puts me in touch with knowledgeable people in the industry. I just don't think the AOS offers enough for the hobby grower.


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## goldenrose (May 12, 2013)

I am not an AOS member, back in the 80's I did belong. I could hardly wait each month for The AOS Bulletin to arrive, yes the articles could be very interesting, especially when they pertained to paphs. As been mentioned, I get more info right here at this forum than I could ever get with any subscription. Then there was all the advertising and the monthly deals so many companies would offer. There's very little advertising any more. When the economy took a nose dive, everyone seems affected. When an orchid addict considers the cost of a subscription, they'd rather spend that money on a plant these days, is my feeling. Yes the quality of Orchids is very good, the photos are fantastic but I don't think that's enough. There's sometimes too much time spent on the computer so an online membership isn't even appealing to me. 
Belonging to an OC, being on the board & the show chair, we don't feel we get much support from AOS. There's an 'annual' donation in addition to the membership amount, we buy their show award twice a year, we pay a table fee to have an AOS representative there and what do we get? We have a plant sales table at every show & there's always Orchids magazines bundled up for an attractive price of $12 or less.
If I had plants in bloom at the time of judging and they were awardable, then yes it would be a consideration to join. AOS judging in our area is on the 2nd Saturday each month, working a retail job that's a work day for me so unless I put in several weeks ahead to have off, chances are I'll be working. It would be nice to earn an award, but that's not the reason I'm an orchid addict.


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## Shiva (May 12, 2013)

I was a suscribing member of the AOS for many years. I suscribed as well to Orchid Review and Orchid Digest. I dropped every magazine in time when I realized the money could be better spent on quality orchids. With the Internet and this forum, you can learn a lot for free and won't bother piling up magazines with articles on orchids you don't grow anyway. And I don't care that much about awards. I'm in it for the pleasure, not for the awards, though Ill admit getting an award from time to time is gratifying, even when it's not an AOS award.


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## cnycharles (May 12, 2013)

I have heard and read a good number of reasons why people had been dissatisfied with the AOS, with judging and other related things. I can relate some of them, and they don't necessarily reflect my opinions, just what i've heard.

Orchids used to be very big, in a very different way than many other plants and had sort of a mystique to them in the plant world and outside. Huge numbers of orchids have been discovered in the last certain long time period, many of them very unusual and flashy. To see orchids in flower was an amazement, and to own and grow one was quite a thing as many were very expensive or hard to find/get. There were many explorers searching them out, and big gardeners, highly financed business people and others striving to be part of the game, and have their name associated with them. Lots of science was being done on plant and orchid biology and reproduction, and many had lots of interest in what was going on because of the fascination of orchids in general. The AOS was there to collect, take part in and distribute the words and pictures of all of this; many subscribed to their magazine because this was one of the very few ways that a person could see, read about and find a place to buy an orchid, other than a garden center where there might be an extremely expensive plant they could buy. There was a sort of prestige associated with the AOS, because it was the pre-eminent source of new science, judging, awards and all with this vast collection of orchid news and information. To have an AOS award was a very special thing. To have access to this growing knowledge base and awards database you needed to have membership.

Over time, there have been lots of developments making it easier to see pictures of, articles about and research done about orchids, and there are many available orchids and places to get them. It is still relatively easy to find a place to buy them if you look on the internet, and there are trillions of pictures available on the internet. At one time there were many orchid societies who were affiliated with the AOS so that they could have their orchids judged in shows, and it was necessary for part of the club or at least one or two to be members of the AOS so that they could uphold their affiliation. Without a club membership in the AOS, they couldn't have a judged show (at least a formally judged one with AOS awards). Many books have also been printed about many thing orchid-related, and many orchid societies have these books/pictures in their closet (so to speak; literally for the CNYOS). Also, there relatively aren't as many orchids being discovered, though kovachii and a few others show that there are still orchids out there, but there also isn't the large amount of science being done on orchid biology and reproduction, data that can be presented in articles in the AOS magazine. There is some growing interest in north american native orchids, which have taken a back seat to the more flashy tropical orchids until recently. Articles about natives have drawn more interest, and there are places where the public can view these treasures. Time will tell if a balance can be found where increasing knowledge, interest and curiosity can be developed without damaging places where these orchids live

So, lots of access to amazing thing orchid-wise from many avenues, not necessarily associated with the AOS. Many people like to be part of organizations, and support their activities. One unfortunate thing that happened was that the AOS bought or built a huge facility sort of like a museum, botanical garden and library with the funds they had. It's upkeep/construction ended up costing much more than expected, or much more than members wanted to support. Before this, they had a small office center and lived more modestly. The economy started going bad, and people either didn't want to support this huge financial drain or couldn't afford the rising memberships. Others were disgusted with the disproportionate focus on the mausoleum (as they called it) in florida, which only served to support a few local people. It didn't have the draw like say disneyland might have, so though on paper it may have seemed like a great idea, it didn't realize it's possible potential. Many members spoke out, but were either ignored or turned away. Many left because of this.

I became an AOS member back in the '80's, and continued for a few years until I became an orchid society member. I could look at the journals at meetings. The AOS magazine was an amazing source of pictures, information, science, plant culture and most importantly a place to find Orchid Vendors! No internet, and the magazine was where you had to look to find either ads, or a list of vendors who were listed. Even now there are orchid vendors who are not on the internet, and it took then and now, scouring information sources to find that certain orchid you know you just have to have.

Another unfortunate thing that happened was that with the rise of orchids and the prestige involved, many vendors, judges and/or AOS officers became overly heady because of their involvement and association with the AOS and orchids in general. This does always turn people off, in general. There was at one point a sense to members that the officership had no interest in what they thought or needed, and the forum on the new internet often would turn away dissension from being posted on their forum. This information is directly from many former or present members, and isn't hearsay. Again, this disenchants people, and if the cost to be a member gets to be pretty high, then many of those people don't see a reason to stay members.

Also, there has been a perception in some areas that the judging system supports only other judges, vendors or specific species that certain judges know well and ignore other species/genera that aren't well-known; this could very well be the case, and understanding human nature and that people are people and we are all flawed, and at times people can be very self-serving, probably is partly true. It is true, however that we all think that 'our' orchids are better than others, and may not understand why they don't win awards, and perceive that they are being unfairly treated. I am sure that reality is a mix of some unfairness and overly high expectations.

I do have to point out, that in recent history I have met and worked with a large number of AOS judges who are from the northeast, eastern canada and other nearby areas, and a very high percentage of them have been very nice people who love what they do, and are very interested in involving local club members in learning about judging and creating interest in having any of them become judges if they had the time to develop an interest in this. No judges get paid, and their travel and lodging expenses, if not subsidized by the society they are visiting, they pay for it all themselves. Also they pay for any research material they have to collect in the time period they are becoming student, probationary and then later on fully accredited AOS judges. This isn't a full-time job; most have full-time jobs and love orchids, and do enjoy working with the club members where they visit. We in upstate ny rarely have (or at least when I lived up there since I just moved south) had any lack of interest when we ask judges to come to our shows, because our members are usually very nice and the judges appreciate our hospitality.

One disadvantage that the AOS has in getting computer things done, or at least was an issue in the past, is that the AOS is an all-volunteer organization. For anything to get done it either must be farmed out to individuals who have the time and expertise to do such a thing, or they have to come up with the funds to make software and then update it constantly. If volunteer time isn't available to do things, then there must be money, and that takes members or donors.

I think there have been moves recently by officers and the selling of the AOS orchid museum that will make it easier to reach out to and retain members, they will just have to be as outwardly friendly and accessible to members who have chosen to be part of the organization. There are still orchid fanatics, the AOS just has to find the best most efficient way to bring them on board. I doubt any club will have the membership they once had, but if the AOS can find a way to create a large, virtual landing pad of every kind of orchid information and pictures etc.

The AOS will have to become lean and mean, if they want to lower membership or have the resources to create and develop internet resources. Also, people interested in orchids also need to develop interest in supporting their local societies, and also learn about becoming AOS judges. It would be a very interesting pursuit for someone who had a little time on their hands


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## Trithor (May 12, 2013)

I have been an AOS member for 20 odd years. I look forward to the magazines arrival each month. Being in South Africa there is very little other benifit to being a member other than the magazine. I have a problem accessing the AOS members section of the website, as I have forgotten my password, and after trying to remember the secret question/answer combo, the only option was to phone to get assistance in resetting the password (not a real option from overseas, so I gave up) I find myself having to seriously think about the cost to value ratio from overseas without being able to access the website properly and no real other benifits than the mag, so probably wont be renewing my membership when it expires.


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## jtrmd (May 12, 2013)

Not sure why I belong anymore to tell you the truth.It was to get the discount on awards,but I only show a few plants a year when something I know is award quality.I have thrown my magazine away like junk mail for the past 6 issues.I did however recoup my 2 yr membership renewal price selling my previous issues at my OS meeting.The articles weren't much,I could do a Google search if I want to see the pretty pictures of Orchids. 


I don't think I will be renewing once this membership one runs out.I don't buy many Orchids anymore.I am currently trying to thin down my collection down to around 200,or less.


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## SlipperFan (May 12, 2013)

I've been an AOS member for a dozen or so years, and have no plans at this time to cease my membership. I look at it as a way to support an organization that supports my addiction. I enjoy Orchids Magazine, even though not every article or edition is of interest to me. I also subscribe to Orchid Digest and am a member of the Slipper Alliance. Addicted.

The one thing I'd like AOS to do is to make AQ available to members through the internet, as part of being a member -- not for extra cost. I'd like it to be accessible through any computer, not just PC owners. It should be accessible not only to traditional computers, but also smart phones, iPads, etc.


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## ehanes7612 (May 12, 2013)

SlipperFan said:


> I've been an AOS member for a dozen or so years, and have no plans at this time to cease my membership. I look at it as a way to support an organization that supports my addiction. I enjoy Orchids Magazine, even though not every article or edition is of interest to me. I also subscribe to Orchid Digest and am a member of the Slipper Alliance. Addicted.
> 
> The one thing I'd like AOS to do is to make AQ available to members through the internet, as part of being a member -- not for extra cost. I'd like it to be accessible through any computer, not just PC owners. It should be accessible not only to traditional computers, but also smart phones, iPads, etc.



exactly


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## tim (May 12, 2013)

SlipperFan said:


> The one thing I'd like AOS to do is to make AQ available to members through the internet, as part of being a member -- not for extra cost. I'd like it to be accessible through any computer, not just PC owners. It should be accessible not only to traditional computers, but also smart phones, iPads, etc.



I hope to encourage this not just for AQPlus but for AOS Bulletin back issues as well! I think the trick is to outsource this project to someone who is a professional...the data's all there - building the interface should be pretty straightforward and not too expensive. It is so irritating to not be able to browse AQ images on my ipad...


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## jtrmd (May 12, 2013)

tim said:


> I hope to encourage this not just for AQPlus but for AOS Bulletin back issues as well! I think the trick is to outsource this project to someone who is a professional...the data's all there - building the interface should be pretty straightforward and not too expensive. It is so irritating to not be able to browse AQ images on my ipad...



Puffin used to be avaliable in the App store if your not jailboken yet,but Cydia had a lot of good add-ons that helps with that issue.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (May 12, 2013)

I was a member for over 30 years, until 2 years ago. In the 80's, it was an astounding magazine. I still rely on info I learned. And the ads! After A few years, I was making more money and could buy plants....great places...Stewarts, Bob Jones Mt. Madonna, even Norris Powell's Orchid house, whose great ads usualy ended up as mislabeled plants. But something changed in the 90's....the magazine got more strident, then fancier and glossier. In a post to the old OLD, I said I wasn't happy with the changes...which got me a less than friendly email response from someone at AOS. By the late 2000's, the magazine was irrelevant. I got more info from the internet, and most of my plants. But I hung on through loyalty. Finally, I decided why continue with a very expensive subscription, with issues I didn't look at for days, and rarely read. That was it...but overall, if it hadn't gotten so expensive I would have stayed.


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## NYEric (May 12, 2013)

Hi Eric. 
I have been a member for about 4 years. Since I have been growing orchids for a while I am interested in getting into the judging program. I support the AOS because it provides a congregation of knowledge and helps establish a standard of judging orchids.


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## Roy (May 12, 2013)

I was a member for a few years till the print versions of AQ were discontinued. I would like to pick up a book for a browse where ever & when ever rather than having to switch on the computer.


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## couscous74 (May 13, 2013)

I'm not a member anymore. I was a for a year or two. The magazine was so-so.
I don't go for awards. 
I have get far more use out of ST, than AOS.


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## mormodes (May 13, 2013)

I think Ron McHatton accesses AQ+ via his iPad while judging. I think via the web page, but I'm not 100% sure about that. I think another student accesses the info that way too (iPad and webpage).

I'd like the index on the web page as a member benefit, but understand the ownership of the Bulletin Index isn't owned by the AOS but by the authors. However the index to 'Orchids' could be online - heck it might be - I rearley go to the web page to look.

I'm a member the same way Dot is. Not all the articles are to my taste but I'm always amazed how going back I find stuff of interest I never noticed before.


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## DavidCampen (May 13, 2013)

tim said:


> I hope to encourage this not just for AQPlus but for AOS Bulletin back issues as well! I think the trick is to outsource this project to someone who is a professional...the data's all there - building the interface should be pretty straightforward and not too expensive. It is so irritating to not be able to browse AQ images on my ipad...



I like getting the print magazine but I don't want to dedicate space to storing back issues so I would really like to see back issues available online as a membership benefit.

I would belong to AOS even if only just to support one of the few orchid hobbyist organizations . I also subscribe to Orchid Digest and prefer Orchid Digest magazine over Orchids. I find Orchids to be too basic for my tastes - lots of "I just got my first orchid and now what do I do with it" type articles.


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## nikv (May 13, 2013)

I was a member of the AOS for about twenty years. I just recently realized that my membership must have run out as I no longer receive the magazine each month. I haven't been in a hurry to rejoin. I don't belong to a local society as I'm unable to attend the meetings on Monday nights. I've never had a single plant judged. I grow orchids simply for my own pleasure and to share with my coworkers on occasion. I do find it frustrating that the AOS didn't bother to contact me when my membership ran out. A reminder would have been nice. Oh, well. As for the usefulness, it has diminished over the years. I used to look forward to receiving my AOS Bulletin each month and would turn immediately to the ads. They used to be my primary source of orchids for sale. No longer. I now shop online or on eBay. Another point of irritation to me was the as the years rolled by, my issue would arrive later and later in the month. It wasn't unusual for a the March issue to arrive during the first week of April, for instance. No fun if the orchid deals were already expired. Complaining to the AOS wouldn't help much. And I found it insulting to have to pay extra postage and handling just to receive my magazine in a timely fashion. As far as I'm concerned, I no longer need the AOS. I do enjoy the articles in the old issues. I hold onto them and re-read them from time to time.


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## Shiva (May 13, 2013)

SlipperFan said:


> The one thing I'd like AOS to do is to make AQ available to members through the internet, as part of being a member -- not for extra cost.



If I could get the electronic monthly edition at a much lower cost, whitout having to pay to get the printed copy, I might very well return. I suscribe to the electronic edition of New Scientist Magazine for less than $40 a year, with a new edition every week. I can also look through every magazine content they ever produced and read old articles. If the AOS could do as much, it would be fantastic.


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## The Orchid Boy (May 13, 2013)

I'd really like a closer judging center. The closest one to me (that I know of) is over 10 hours away. Also more technical articles for free online would help attract more people. There is always basic care and habitat info online, it is not always detailed. Like subgenus and alliance, temperatures, range maps, habitat pictures, ect. And convince more people that orchids aren't just for women! There are plenty of orchids that aren't exactly frilly and pretty.


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## KyushuCalanthe (May 13, 2013)

Sounds like the job of setting standards for judging is one of its primary roles these days. Printed materials for relatively obscure hobbies is mostly a thing of the past as the world turns more to electronic media. If you want technical reports they can be had in pdf format online or by contacting folks who are willing to share information. Tough days to be in the paper printed magazine biz anymore. 

BTW, I was a member on and off in the 80s and 90s. As a kid I remember fondly going into my dad's closet full of back issues (to the late 60s, uninterrupted) and digging out jewels. So in the end I owe my interest in orchids to AOS and my dad.


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## SlipperKing (May 13, 2013)

*Dudes! AOS Mag is on line. You just have to be member to access it* April was the first month I believe. I did fine it difficult to use on-line. In order to enlarge the print enough for me to read I had to do a lot of panning back and forth along with scrolling. That was a pain and distracting.

See here
https://www.aos.org/default.aspx?id=1


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## Shiva (May 13, 2013)

SlipperKing said:


> *Dudes! AOS Mag is on line. You just have to be member to access it* April was the first month I believe. I did fine it difficult to use on-line. In order to enlarge the print enough for me to read I had to do a lot of panning back and forth along with scrolling. That was a pain and distracting.



I think you still have to pay full price for membership including delivery of the printed magazine at home. I was talking of an electronic version of the magazine at a lower cost without delivery of the printed version. I'll have to check if there has been changes.


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## The Orchid Boy (May 13, 2013)

I really don't like e-books, online magazines, ect. I really, really prefer to have it printed out and have a hard copy. 

The AOS does have an option for online only. It is the same price as the paper magazine, unless you live in another country, then it's cheaper.


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## Shiva (May 14, 2013)

I see there is a digital only Orchid magazine for $65 US and the same thing for students for $40. I don't think it should cost more to make a digital edition for non students. So why not set the price at $40 for everyone? As for the coupons, they're useless to people living outside the US because most américan sellers don't ship to Canada or elsewhere, and those who do charge for phytosanitary certificates and CITEs papers. Which end up costing more than the subscritpion itself.

In fact, the AOS would save tremendous amount of money by going mostly digital and the subscription rate may increase, especially if we had access to older issues of the magazine.


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## SlipperKing (May 14, 2013)

Shiva said:


> I think you still have to pay full price for membership including delivery of the printed magazine at home. I was talking of an electronic version of the magazine at a lower cost without delivery of the printed version. I'll have to check if there has been changes.



That has been suggested and I think they're working on that.


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## Trithor (May 14, 2013)

Exactly, the only benifit to out-of-USA members is the mag. Currently it is a bit expensive and correcting issues with connectivity is not user friendly from out of the USA. It does not help if you have to phone in working hours from the other side of the world. I know we are a small percentage of the membership, but we still pay for it and being ignored is .... offensive?


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## slippertalker (May 15, 2013)

Tim,

I have been growing orchids for almost 40 years and have been an AOS member since 1978. During that period of time I have seen the large growth and ensuing diminished AOS. The reason are really pretty simple.

1) loss of large orchid nurseries with big scale hybridizing programs
2) advent of the pot plant market starting out of Taiwan and expanding to cheap, disposable mericlones.
3) internet cut advertising revenue and made it easier to circumvent the AOS as a provider of orchid sources and information.
4) social interaction is diminished from 20 or 30 years ago, all social groups are struggling including floral groups and fraternal organizations. People interact via email, facebook and twitter rather than face to face discussions.
5) expense.....the membership fee is $65., basically for a magazine.
6) people don't buy newspapers or magazines as they previously did....internet.

I am an AOS judge and have been involved nationally for several years. The AOS, in my opinion will contract until it reaches a stable point of existence. We can all cry about mistakes made with the facilities in Florida and the politics of that, but in the end it will survive due to the energy and desire of some to have that as a goal.

Bill Zimmerman


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## chrismende (May 16, 2013)

My perspective on all of this:
I joined the AOS as soon as I realized how important orchids were to me. I felt the need to support the national organization and learn from it what I could. When I began to have some awardable plants and wanted to get awards, it was a no-brainer to continue to support the organization that makes those awards.

Since I am relatively new in orchids, I want to continue my AOS membership, because I feel strongly that a national organization should exist and without enough members it clearly cannot do what we all want it to do. I don't know numbers, but I do know that an all volunteer organization needs lots of strong volunteers -from exactly which pool do we expect these to come if not from the membership who care about the future of the organization?

The AOS magazine is often frustratingly uninformative. Certain articles are wonderful, but many seem to address their topics too superficially. The expertise level it addresses is lower than I'd like. However, I do enjoy the magazine enough to want to keep them and reread them later, since my own interests change and later may not be at all what they were when the issue first arrived! I will always love to lie in bed reading a magazine. I also love lying in bed reading on a smart device. I can spend lots of time on the smart device throughout the day both in the greenhouse and at home or at a meeting, looking up many orchids and other topics. Pictures aren't as beautiful on a magazine as on a digital screen, though - 

My main beefs with the AOS are three:
1. I am not sure the judging system can be fair to species when they get judged by the standards of fashion. I feel that species should be judged on their own merits without the artificiality of 
exaggerated line breeding. Bigger is not always better. Flatter is not always preferable, etc.
2. The website is unbelievably cumbersome in design Some good hearted volunteer made it, and I honor his efforts. However, it needs to work more intuitively. I am generally very good at finding things on websites. On the AOS site, I can go round and round and finally end up calling the office. That should not have to happen!
3. AQ Plus should be designed to work on Macs without a workaround needed.I have three separate Macs and had to buy a PC just for AQ and OrchidWiz. That sucks! Ease of use in the digital world is essential. The AOS must get more thoroughly on board with that.


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## Trithor (May 16, 2013)

Chris, you have made a number of good points. I would just like to point out that as a USA based member you have the benifit of the mag, web, awards, and the adverts being aplicable. As an overseas member we have the benifit of the mag only. The web does not work as you cannot simply phone if you need to sort out a problem. Balance all this against the cost as an overseas member and see what each mag costs then. I would rather buy back issues from a second hand dealer on the web (as the delay in reading is neither here nor there if the mag takes 2-3 months to arrive in any case. A point of interest is that last year I purchased a pack of back issues which happened to have the most recent issue as part of the pack, and the pack arrived before the actual most recent issue from AOS). Having said all this, I too would like to continue supporting a cornerstone organisation of my favourite obsession.


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## mormodes (May 16, 2013)

As to number 3 have you tried logging on to the AOS website via the iPad or other mac device? When I log on I get 3 tabs in that same small box. One says 'edit profile' one says 'social' one says 'JC program'. Since you subscribe to the AQ+ you should be able to access award data via clicking on the 'JC Program' tab. That'll bring up a sceond page with 4 tabs. One of which is 'Orchid Search'. Hovering over that shows a drop down menu, one selection of which is 'Search Awards'. You should be able to fill out the information about the orchid you want to look at. Yes that interface is clunky to use too.

Remember you always need a genus in the genus blank. and you always have to hit 'search'. Just hitting 'enter' doesn't start the search. You don't necessarily have to capitalize any names anymore. Or fill in the complete name either.

You will have to noodle around with the program and learn the way it thinks. It doesn't think the way we do. Or maybe I should say it doesn't think the way I do. My friend who access awards via her iPad discovered sometimes you have to scroll left and right to find the results of the search - whereas they show up just fine on a computer monitor.

I still get frustrated when trying to compare and contrast between awards, but I think that's my problem, not one I'd continue to experience once I got the knack of the program.

*Again, this assumes you subscribe to AQ+* If you aren't a subscriber you won't get the data. 

Just for my information and education can someone try this so I can learn if it works for members and subscribers teh same way it works for me? I enter data for my center so I have different access than regular people do. And if I'm wrong I'd like to know it so I can shut up about this thing.

As to number one above - every judge that I know feels the same way you do. Even those at the Pacific Central, LOL! They trained me so I know. We've had some pretty good fights over the years. *G* But generally when looking at published awards I admit I have a 'what were they thinking' moment when I see an award to something like a Paph gratrixianum with smeared blurred dorsal sepal with streaks of color instead of defined spots, but I assume the judges were looking at something I'm not looking for. Maybe they like the intense color, I dunno. But I listen to the discussion and then score my heart's desire. 

As to #2, yes the website sux. I double dog dare you to find an entry form on teh webpage. After noodling around you can find it. I usually go to the sitemap in order to find what I'm looking for. Having said that the article about illegal paphs is right on the front page. Where it belongs. *G*

Kathy Barrett


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## mormodes (May 16, 2013)

Chris, it works as I said. I just logged in to the webpage and accessed the award data using a macbook. Dang the images are so much better with this video card than my HP laptop, LOL!


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## mormodes (May 16, 2013)

Trithor said:


> The web does not work as you cannot simply phone if you need to sort out a problem.



I thought you said you couldn't remember your passwords nor could you remember the answers to your security questions. That's why the webpage didn't work for you. 

As far as I know if you email the webmaster (Greg Allikas) you can get help via email or directions to someone who can help you.


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## Trithor (May 16, 2013)

mormodes said:


> I thought you said you couldn't remember your passwords nor could you remember the answers to your security questions. That's why the webpage didn't work for you.
> 
> As far as I know if you email the webmaster (Greg Allikas) you can get help via email or directions to someone who can help you.



Thank you, I will try that


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## mormodes (May 16, 2013)

Trithor said:


> Thank you, I will try that



[email protected] That's the email address that should go directly to Greg. Even tho your question isn't about publications. Tell him your trouble and see if he as web master can help. He may have to take it to teh technical people like Howard Bronstein - I doubt it, but he may.


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## Trithor (May 17, 2013)

mormodes said:


> [email protected] That's the email address that should go directly to Greg. Even tho your question isn't about publications. Tell him your trouble and see if he as web master can help. He may have to take it to teh technical people like Howard Bronstein - I doubt it, but he may.



Thanks for your help, I managed to get sorted out. This forum is incredible, it is a bit like a 'Captain Fixit' site. 
Thanks again!


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## mormodes (May 17, 2013)

Trithor said:


> Thanks for your help, I managed to get sorted out. This forum is incredible, it is a bit like a 'Captain Fixit' site.
> Thanks again!



Glad it worked out. Now you should be able to down load the magazines from this year in e-format. I still haven't figured out if you absolutely positively have to download the program with each one (I do so, simply because its easier than thinking or learning, *G*).


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## SlipperFan (May 17, 2013)

mormodes said:


> ...
> 
> *Again, this assumes you subscribe to AQ+* If you aren't a subscriber you won't get the data.
> 
> ...


Apparently that is the case. I logged on, went to the site map, but I couldn't find a thing relating to AQ+.

That's what I'd like to see changed -- access to AQ+ should be a benefit of being a member of AOS.


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## Ray (May 18, 2013)

Unfortunately, it's likely a bit of a "Catch 22".

The AOS' mission is to "promote and support the passion for orchids through education, conservation, and research", so allowing more general access would certainly move that in the right direction.

But that takes money.....

When I win the lottery tonight, we'll see if I can help out a bit.


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## mormodes (May 18, 2013)

SlipperFan said:


> Apparently that is the case. I logged on, went to the site map, but I couldn't find a thing relating to AQ+.
> 
> That's what I'd like to see changed -- access to AQ+ should be a benefit of being a member of AOS.




OOps sorry. I get to the award data screen by the same 'box' where I log in... not the site map. Sorry, I must have been unclear and sorry again for not knowing the term for the code for the thingy I will call a 'box'.

At the top of the AOS website is a place for members to log in. After logging in - inside that same 'box' - 3 tabs should now appear at the top of that 'box'. One's 'Edit Profile', one's 'Social' and one's 'JC Access'. Click on 'JC Access'. That should take you to the Orchids Plus screen which you can find award data via the 'Orchid Search' tab. There's a drop down menu that's take you to awards. Again assuming you subscribe. If you don't subscribe it won't work.

Having said that I agree with the notion that award data should be universal, or at least fully acessable to AOS members. IMHO that would stop the appearence that only judges get awards - because only they are privy to what features make a plant awardable because they have to subscribe to the AQ+. 

True, the AOS will say anyone can subscribe to AQ+, and that's right. Anyone can. But most people don't. Most people don't show their plants. But maybe more people *would* if they knew their plants were as good or better than those previously awarded. Knowledge is power.


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## SlipperFan (May 18, 2013)

mormodes said:


> OOps sorry. I get to the award data screen by the same 'box' where I log in... not the site map. Sorry, I must have been unclear and sorry again for not knowing the term for the code for the thingy I will call a 'box'.
> 
> At the top of the AOS website is a place for members to log in. After logging in - inside that same 'box' - 3 tabs should now appear at the top of that 'box'. One's 'Edit Profile', one's 'Social' and one's 'JC Access'. ...
> 
> True, the AOS will say anyone can subscribe to AQ+, and that's right. Anyone can. But most people don't. Most people don't show their plants. But maybe more people *would* if they knew their plants were as good or better than those previously awarded. Knowledge is power.



Thanks -- I have only 2 tabs, apparently because I don't subscribe to AQ+. But I certainly agree that all AOS members should have access. Seems pretty elitist as it is now. Somebody should tell AOS that Knowledge is Power...


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## NYEric (May 20, 2013)

That'll be $50 please! :evil:


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## SlipperFan (May 20, 2013)

$50 + $65? Not.


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## Brandon Tam (May 20, 2013)

The AOS has to incorporate, integrate, and attract the next generation of young orchid hobbyists.


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## shadytrake (May 22, 2013)

I am an AOS member plus I have the AQ+ full subscription (computer disc and internet). One of the things that is lacking with the AOS is follow up for computer related issues.

For example: Apparently my AQ+ subscription is expired. I did not receive any notification from AOS about this until well after it expired (several months).

It would have been great if I had received an e-mail since this is the preferred form of communication now (to avoid waste paper generation and snail mail costs).

Also, the notice I finally received only advised me that it had expired. There was no information about how to renew or where to renew electronically.

How do they expect to retain membership for the AQ+ if they do not make it easy to renew? I fully expect to renew my AQ+, but right now I don't have the time or energy to try to track down the renewal process on their website. So it will wait a little bit more.

As far as overall AOS membership, I am a member to support the association for my hobby. I usually use the discount with SVO because Fred is one of the best vendors for accepting the AOS discount coupon. He either gives the discount or sends a free plant. Last time, he sent a free plant that was similar to the style I was ordering and was on my wish list but out of my budget at the time. 

I personally do not like online magazines. I work on the computer all day and the last thing I want to do is read on a computer. Not only is it bad for your eyes to spend so many hours staring at a screen, you have to haul the computer with you to read it. I would much rather read the magazine in paper, but I also know that to be environmentally responsible reducing paper waste is the way to go....I still like the magazine in paper. If the AOS goes to online only, I will probably subscribe to Orchid Digest and stop reading the AOS mag.


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## slippertalker (May 22, 2013)

It is easy to pay membership fees and AQ+ on the website (aos.org). I do agree that it should be easier to notify when such subscriptions are finished.


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## lepetitmartien (May 23, 2013)

My 2 cents of an outsider:

There no reason there can't be a reminder by email before a subscription is over. It can easily be scripted and semi or fully automated.


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## shadytrake (May 24, 2013)

lepetitmartien said:


> My 2 cents of an outsider:
> 
> There no reason there can't be a reminder by email before a subscription is over. It can easily be scripted and semi or fully automated.



I agree which is why I was quite surprised that I didn't get an AQ+ notification but I did receive an email about my annual membership expiry in June. Weird.


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## Chicago Chad (May 24, 2013)

> I personally do not like online magazines. I work on the computer all day and the last thing I want to do is read on a computer. Not only is it bad for your eyes to spend so many hours staring at a screen, you have to haul the computer with you to read it. I would much rather read the magazine in paper, but I also know that to be environmentally responsible reducing paper waste is the way to go....I still like the magazine in paper. If the AOS goes to online only, I will probably subscribe to Orchid Digest and stop reading the AOS mag.



ditto


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## Trithor (May 25, 2013)

I find it very difficult to read a online magazine in the wc, but the paper mag makes a great read in the only place I can sit quietly alone for a while.


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## wjs2nd (Jul 19, 2013)

I'll keep my answer short. I'm a young guy and mony is short. Why would I pay so much for a magazine when I can buy more orchids with that money.

If the AOS wants more members they should do a cheaper (much cheaper) no magazine option.


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## parvi_17 (Jul 21, 2013)

I think the simple answer, which everyone seems to be in agreement on, is that times have changed. The rise of the Internet has almost eliminated the need for the AOS for the average grower, because publications like the Orchids magazine are now obsolete. Personally, I still like to read magazines and both Orchids and The Orchid Digest are great publications that I used to subscribe to, but I just can't justify the cost anymore. So, as has been mentioned many times already, the AOS is really only useful to people who have their plants judged. Unfortunately, that might mean that the AOS has become more of a niche thing and may never return to its former level of membership. And that I think, is not such a terrible thing, as it shows just how much the hobby has grown and evolved; there are so many people growing orchids now that we no longer need to rely on getting this magazine in the mail to stay in touch with the orchid world. We have our smaller, local societies now, and there are so many of them that unless you live in a remote area there is bound to be a meeting place for one nearby.


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## Paul Mc (Jul 24, 2013)

Parvi, I couldn't agree more. Times have indeed changed. As a marketer and psych grad, I have been watching this thread closely, out of pure interest in other people's perspectives and for research about my/our own society. 

To be honest, less technical terms, articles and programs should be given for those who might have an interest. Anyone slightly interested in a hobby would be turned off by extreme technical language. What I have personally seen is that too many societies and publications focus exclusively on technical and hard to read content for those new to orchids who are just trying to get their bearings.

I'm totally not against a pro magazine in the slightest. There are niches for them, but niches tend to be not profitable and have a small audience which the AOS needs to address in my humble opinion. Local societies need to be aware of this as well and cater to those less interested in scientific jargon and appeal to those who just want to grow and bloom their beloved orchids.

There is a time and place for all, but as a marketer at heart, priorities should be set and companies recognize the changing times. If we do not (local societies, other organizations/publications) will quickly become obsolete.

Just as a reference point, what do each of you think the basic demographic of your society is? Male/Female, average age, etc... Most society video footage/pics/experience I have seen thus far are people 40/50'ish and above. Perhaps it is an economic/age issue, but that isn't what I have seen from participating on many forums.

My apologies for the extremely long post and I truly hope I have not offended anyone for their thoughts or opinions as I truly respect them all! This is only my psych/marketing background coming into play with the observations I have seen here and on other forums, in societies and the extent of current marketing strategies available to us all at no cost which my research doesn't yield much at this point.


Paul McMahon
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Paul Mc (Jul 24, 2013)

Rephasing my last sentence: "my research hasn't shown many orchid societies and organizations have taken advantage of yet."


Paul McMahon
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Scooby5757 (Jul 25, 2013)

If you have an interest in orchids, you have an interest in the AOS. Someone else is curating information and a level of documentation that the Internet hasn't gotten to yet, or, historically, ever....poo poo it, and the hierarchy has its problems, but it is still a central organization that has all of our interests at heart. We'd be fools to let it dissolve...


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## parvi_17 (Jul 25, 2013)

Scooby5757 said:


> If you have an interest in orchids, you have an interest in the AOS. Someone else is curating information and a level of documentation that the Internet hasn't gotten to yet, or, historically, ever....poo poo it, and the hierarchy has its problems, but it is still a central organization that has all of our interests at heart. We'd be fools to let it dissolve...



Unless they've added a lot more to their website in the past couple of years, the member's section of the AOS website simply doesn't have any information on it that I don't already have access to for free elsewhere on the Internet. Documentation of awards (which I'm assuming you're referring to) is interesting information but not worth the membership fee for me. So again, it's great for that niche group of people that really want access to that stuff but not really for the "average" grower. I would be sad to see the AOS dissolve, but that alone is not gonna make me open my checkbook. They have to offer me something that is very important: value. And right now, they just don't have that. I definitely think that not having what I believe to be the most important thing about the AOS right now (awards) would be a negative thing for orchid growing as a whole, but at the same time I personally don't get my plants judged, so I'm not going to donate money to support a service that I don't use.

Regarding some of Paul's comments, my orchid society definitely seems to consist of primarily middle-aged people and seniors. Which I think is inherent of any horticulture-based group, because young people don't usually "have the time" to bother with these kind of things and tend to partake in more shallow activities in their spare time. I say that as a 22 year old guy that has been a member of my society since I was 15. And I am one of only a few people in the group I would say under the age of 30-35. It is crucial for any group with a higher-aged demographic to try to attract younger people; you always need fresh blood to keep things interesting, and you need to encourage younger people to get into the hobby so that it continues to grow and doesn't die out with the current generation of growers. There are two things you can do right off the top of my head to attract younger people: cut costs and modernize (and often, the two go hand-in-hand). For example, if Orchids magazine were to become an electronic format and the cost of membership were cut as a result, I would be tempted to rejoin the AOS. Although it would be nice to see more value-added incentives beyond that, particularly for people outside of the States such as myself (if they are interested in remaining an international organization despite the name).


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## PaphGuy (Sep 29, 2013)

I was a member of AOS for 15 years, and was in the judging for 15 years too. I lost my AOS and judging passion, quit at the same time. But I still love growing orchids. My passion is growing orchid, not judging orchid. Growing orchids is much more satisfying than just sitting and judging other people's orchids.


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## reivilos (Dec 24, 2013)

I registered recently, to have a look.
Their website is a complete mess. Online AQPlus/Orchid Plus/whatever isn't working. The website keeps asking me to "Edit [my] profile". I can't even reset my password.
It really sucks.


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## Erythrone (Dec 24, 2013)

I bought AQ plus a few years ago and it was a disaster... Unable to see many pics, very bad seaching mode...


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## gonewild (Dec 24, 2013)

reivilos said:


> I registered recently, to have a look.
> Their website is a complete mess. Online AQPlus/Orchid Plus/whatever isn't working. The website keeps asking me to "Edit [my] profile". I can't even reset my password.
> It really sucks.



So what you are saying is that the website is working normally??


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