# why should not people be able to collect wild orquides?



## Dupuy (Jul 19, 2010)

as i have seen many of you 'novices' and experts are really good at what you do! here is when i ask what makes one person to collect and grow wild orquides for trade and sale acceptable while others who pick them from the great rain forests a complete tragedy? is it because those who bribe and eliminate competition through laws fraudulence and deceit also contain the greatest ability to grow the new species orquides? why can not the little man be great at growing and making more of the orquides? perhaps we are all bound by laws of the wolf in sheeps clothing with a scare of the orquide policia?


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## NYEric (Jul 20, 2010)

I was just reading my copy of Orchid Fever last night. Apparently the laws allow orchid destruction on large scale for construction and farming projects while simultaneously penalizing the small man for collecting for enjoyment or to protect and propagate the plants. If I had access to wild orchids and could protect them in secret or make a small profit, I would go for it in the face of stupid laws.


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## Damas (Jul 20, 2010)

I do agree with Eric. So many laws are made to protect profits nowadays, rather than species or ecosystems...
I am ready to be an outlaw regarding orchids, in this non sens legal world.


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## Bolero (Jul 20, 2010)

Why do we need to go and collect wild orchids when you can buy the plants in flask? I think everything on CITES is available somewhere for purchase and I am yet to see much that is unaffordable.

The legal propagation and export via flask world wide should be reducing the need to collect wild stock.......shouldn't it?


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## gonewild (Jul 20, 2010)

Bolero said:


> Why do we need to go and collect wild orchids when you can buy the plants in flask? I think everything on CITES is available somewhere for purchase and I am yet to see much that is unaffordable.
> 
> The legal propagation and export via flask world wide should be reducing the need to collect wild stock.......shouldn't it?



Only a small fraction of the orchid species are available in flasks or even available legally in nurseries for that matter.


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## Dupuy (Jul 20, 2010)

of where do everyones legal plants originiate? it is the fake craze of the outside countries that makes collectors of orquides collect out all plants they find. i have mean to speak of collectors that are really preserve orquides from destruction or let the specie into peoples collection which prevent completely erradicacion! the orquide specie are meant for everyone not just select few who claim they are the only company capable of grow. the company monopolized the specie so they make profit through lies and charts and laws. you then can buy the specie but are never as good a grower as the company to have the origin of plant. fake craze collects the plants from wild!


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## Bolero (Jul 21, 2010)

Ok, let's say only a small fraction are available right now.......more will become available over time and they will become widely available to everyone. These things take time. Do we have the right to go and collect the wild plants? I think there are arguments both ways, certainly if the immediate habitat is under threat then it could be justified but otherwise I can't see it. Remembering that not all of their habitats are under threat.


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## baodai (Jul 21, 2010)

The village people doesn't care much about everything else except for food. If they can collect wild plants and trade for food then what are you going to do !!! save plants or human? Would you or CITES send food to these areas so people stop collecting wild plants !!! Of course, they can find other way to trade for their food, but trading plants for food is easier way for some family. CITES is the main source to blame for all of this. By writting the law but no one at local level enforce it, It makes plants more marketable ... I can go on and on about this issue ...but nothing i can do. So, I will sit back a listen
BD


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## NYEric (Jul 21, 2010)

Bolero said:


> Ok, let's say only a small fraction are available right now.......more will become available over time and they will become widely available to everyone. These things take time.


This, unfortunately, is a pipe-dream!


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## SlipperFan (Jul 21, 2010)

Baodai, what do you think is the answer? What should be done?


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## Dupuy (Jul 21, 2010)

Baodai say it all! people will do whatever just to survive. trade in the markets for food and meat. the Phragmipedium peruvianum were in no danger of destruction and human even died to get america and europe what purple shoe orquide they want! it is the fake law CITES cause corruption and make great collectors into criminals! it is CITES that restrict good growers such as many of you from growing a populous specie. do visit the forests yourself there is no shortage of orquideas just travel higher! within specie many are rare but naturale selection makes the orquide this way! there are many collected Maxillaria is beautiful that are only plants of the specie! if never collected it would be forever lost to what fate nature had for the plant. collecting specie in the forest has brought to you your legal collection. it is the story behind a specie discovery that makes it interesting and valuable! many ugly orquideas too I admit!


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## KyushuCalanthe (Jul 21, 2010)

There are no pat answers to this question. To deal with the inevitable loss of biodiversity around the world you have to look at all the factors whether they be social, political, environmental, or economic. The only way is to deal with such problems is to address human problems first - adequately feeding and caring for populations with as little damage to what is left of natural ecosystems. The only other option is genocide, whether it be human or the continuing erosion of naturally functioning systems.

On the upside, by all accounts the earth has dealt with huge changes in the past and just look how diverse it remains after all millions of years of evolving! Now, how human civilization will fare is another issue. Perhaps we should be focusing on that one more closely.


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## baodai (Jul 21, 2010)

SlipperFan said:


> Baodai, what do you think is the answer? What should be done?


Dot, I was going to sit and listen but here my other 2 cents.
To me personally, there are many ways to resolve this problem:
*First*, CITES has to separate plants and animals into 2 diff (calatories???). 
*Second*, Get the real data from local government and upgrade or downgrade Appendices, It has to be from local government, not from someone sit at the office and guess about the quota of each particular plant. Is it too much for CITES to do, yet it is. But if you write the law you have to do it right (with correct information), or you don’t do it at all.
*Third* ... you want to hear more ...?
BD


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## KyushuCalanthe (Jul 21, 2010)

baodai said:


> Dot, I was going to sit and listen but here my other 2 cents.
> To me personally, there are many ways to resolve this problem:
> *First*, CITES has to separate plants and animals into 2 diff (calatories???).
> *Second*, Get the real data from local government and upgrade or downgrade Appendices, It has to be from local government, not from someone sit at the office and guess about the quota of each particular plant. Is it too much for CITES to do, yet it is. But if you write the law you have to do it right (with correct information), or you don’t do it at all.
> ...



Yes, I'd love to hear more. So far I'm totally with you.


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## NYEric (Jul 22, 2010)

The problem is there seems to be no non-self serving advisory body to revise and improve these laws!


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## etex (Jul 22, 2010)

What I don't understand is why the AOS and the RHS are not more active/involved in fixing the problems with CITES. I would think that the more endangered species would be in better hands being propagated by caring,competent growers.


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## tenman (Jul 22, 2010)

Bolero said:


> Why do we need to go and collect wild orchids when you can buy the plants in flask? I think everything on CITES is available somewhere for purchase and I am yet to see much that is unaffordable.
> 
> The legal propagation and export via flask world wide should be reducing the need to collect wild stock.......shouldn't it?



No, you can't but them in flask - not here in the US. And pray tell me, how soon will flasks of, say, tranlienianum album be available anywhere - let alone here in the US? The answer is probably never - or at least not in my lifetime.


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## Kavanaru (Jul 22, 2010)

tenman said:


> No, you can't but them in flask - not here in the US.



as previously mentioned in other threads of this forum, this particular case is not deficit of CITES, but a problem with the interpretation of it by the USA authorities... 

and no, I am not saying that CITES is perfect, I am on this more on the same alignment as baodai... CITES need to be amended, and very quick!! in order to cover correctly, both animals and plants (and based on real data!)

but let's be honest, if the USA-authorities would have a more relaxed interpretation of the CITES (like the one most countries have), and all the "prohibited" Paphios from Vietnam and other regions would be readily available as seed-grown plants in the USA... would most of the orchids-fans in the USA still complain that CITES is rubbish and only blocks the trade of plants and promote black market?


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## NYEric (Jul 22, 2010)

etex said:


> What I don't understand is why the AOS and the RHS are not more active/involved in fixing the problems with CITES. I would think that the more endangered species would be in better hands being propagated by caring,competent growers.



When I brought this up at the Florida Symposium a couple of years ago, the AOS speaker basically dismissed my question. If someone pointed out the reality that by limiting species here, they gain value other places and set U.S. commercial growers back. Optimally, US Forestry would have an office to sampleand maybe randomly test flasks and plants being shipped across borders and then pass them on; but the way it works is CITES officers in the export country make money to certify the plants so the import is dependent on that certification only or else your plants are legally confiscated!


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## SlipperFan (Jul 22, 2010)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> Yes, I'd love to hear more. So far I'm totally with you.


Yes, I agree on both counts.


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## chrismende (Jul 22, 2010)

This is such a sad subject: our worldwide interest in these orchids has, indeed, made it very profitable for locals to collect and sell. Those locals need to eat, as others say, and will continue to collect as long as there are buyers. Also, the constant pressure of the need by our complex civilization for land continues and will continue to disrupt habitats. Preserves, public education, botanical gardens, individual growers whose commitment is to perpetuating species must all continue. No one answer exists. CITES is an international effort that has many, many flaws but was well intended. 
And, in answer to the original question, of course locals often know how to grow these plants well!


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