# Masdevallia potting experiment



## Paul Mc (Feb 13, 2013)

Thought I'd let everyone here benefit from my experiment, based upon Ray's website info.

I've never been good with Masdevallias, but have finally managed to keep one alive for over a year now. It hasn't been too happy, but alive nonetheless.

I had been considering using a modified zeer pot for evaporative cooling effect when Ray suggested using S/H in a modified scenario to also create a similar effect. Since I had the LECA to use, I did just that. However, I also have clay pots and sand as well to create a side by side test with once I find a few more Masdie's to add to the experiment.

My 2 Masdie's are now potted in only LECA inside unglazed clay pots. The pots are say directly in a saucer of water, with care that the roots are not immediately on top of the water line.

As ambient humidity can be an issue with evaporative rates, I placed a small fan right next to the pots so there is constant airflow, hopefully increasing the evaporation rate inside and around the pots.

Here is a pic.






After 1 complete day in this setting, I had to refill the saucers about 3 times. Further, I had an orchid in a clay pot without LECA that I say nearby so I could feel both and see if there was a notable temp difference on the outside of the pot. I was shocked at the temp difference I was able to feel just by hand! What the actual temp difference is I have yet to test though. However, the combo of the hand feeling test and the need to refill many times in 1 day would suggest that something is working.

As others have stated, which I fully agree with, the plants will ultimately be the judge of this set up, lol...

Just thought someone out there might find this interesting and perhaps even helpful.


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## wjs2nd (Feb 13, 2013)

Very cool. Thanks for sharing.


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## goods (Feb 13, 2013)

Awesome! Adding the fan should really help with cooling. In order to maximize evaporative cooling effects, you want to keep the outside environment drier, so that more moisture can evaporate more easily into the air. Make sure you find a good medium between the humidity needs of the plant and the humidity needed to generate adequate cooling.


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## Paul Mc (Feb 13, 2013)

Good thought Goods. Hadn't even thought of that yet, but guess thats why Im wanting to test zeer pots as well. What other mediums would you be thinking of. This is all about me testing and learning from the experiences, and all thoughts are totally welcome to add more ideas to my experiments.


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## goods (Feb 13, 2013)

I would look into those "cool pots" from The Orchid Gallery. I think they are similar to your technique here, but may be slightly different. Also, the Hygrolon looks to be an interesting media, especially if you used it similar to the Epiweb IIS system or those clay tubes. They would stay consistently moist, potentially creating a humid microclimate around the plants, while still providing some evaporative cooling. 

What Masdies are you trying to grow and what is your typical indoor relative humidity?


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## Paul Mc (Feb 13, 2013)

I'll have to get back to you on the name of one Masdie. The second I bought 2 weeks ago without a tag at a discount price for this.

I've tried the regular cool pots as I'd heard good things. Didn't work for me, but it may have been my medium choices at that time and misunderstanding of product use. I'm still planning in purchasing their tubes for future use though. I see the benefits, just trying to sort out the details. 

I've also found a retailer for hygrolon here in the US and have been following "Magnus" progress and work with this product. Great ideas, and I'd love to try them in the future, in fact I want a new terrarium to use this stuff in!!! It seems awesome, but working through details still. Have a few small terrariums and aquariums that would work great with this I think. Unfortunately, im searching for a job so costs must be minimal for now. Future project!!! Yippee!!!

My humidity is generally between 40 to 60 inside, but has been known to hit +/- 10 from there. In the summer, we often are quite higher.

Thank you so much for your thoughts in this! As I said before, just more thoughts and data to think about and use!!! Love it!!!!


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## goods (Feb 14, 2013)

Depending on the species or species in the background of the hybrid, you may be able to get away with just keeping these indoors in a terrarium. There are some nice true warm growers and some that are I-W don't seem all that hard to grow as long as you get healthy plants to begin with. I've even gotten away with some of the more intermediate growers by just growing them indoors in a room temperature terrarium. 

I've been using the Hygrolon for about a month now, and I'm starting to see some results from the initial experimenting. So far, so good. When the growth is obvious in a picture, I'll post some before and afters in a thread.


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## Marc (Feb 14, 2013)

Looking forward to your updates, looks like an interesting setup.


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## Paul Mc (Feb 14, 2013)

Thanks Marc!

Goods, yes Id love to see some before and after shots with an explanation of your potting and culture. I live Masdie's but haven't figured then out completely yet. I fear they see me coming and start screaming for their lives right now, lol...

The one that has a tag is Meijiana x stobelii and is the small one just barely seen behind the larger cheap one featured in the photograph I posted.


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## Erythrone (Feb 14, 2013)

I tried SH with mine and it was a mess.


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## Paul Mc (Feb 14, 2013)

Erythrone said:


> I tried SH with mine and it was a mess.



Could you expand on the issues you faced? All info is welcome as it gives me things to be aware of and consider. Would love to hear your thoughts about your experience.


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## The Orchid Boy (Feb 14, 2013)

I'll be trying this soon with a M. Aquarius. So you really have to fill the saucers 3 times a day? Or does it hold water after a time and you do not have to fill it so often? What would happen if I went on a 3-10 day vacation and had my masdevallia in this set up?


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## Paul Mc (Feb 14, 2013)

It's evaporating and not holding water. I have an emergency trip for family I must make, so I plan to use a very large saucer and fill it with water when I leave. Yes, extended time away will be an issue with this set up, but it would also have been with the zeer pot. I'm still working out the details for a trip away, including asking a very kind neighbor to assist, lol...


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## wjs2nd (Feb 14, 2013)

The advantage to this setup is it sounds like you can't over water. Should be easy for your neighbor to care for them, which is nice.


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## Erythrone (Feb 15, 2013)

Paul Mc said:


> Could you expand on the issues you faced? All info is welcome as it gives me things to be aware of and consider. Would love to hear your thoughts about your experience.



The plants were: Hampshire Prolific, Bella Donna, Red Wing and Angel Tang.

Medium: small sized Prime Agra. 

The roots just didn't want to grow in the pot, between the LECAs. They were growing on the top. 

I watered (always on the top of the medium) 2 times a week with water from dehumidifier mixed or not with water from our well (pH of our well water is 7 to 7.2). And after that leaching, I added a solution of MSU fertiliser (30 to 50 ppm N).

No one of the plants died but they were starving. The are now growing on straight rockwool or on a bark mix.


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## The Orchid Boy (Feb 15, 2013)

So what do masdevallias need for light and fertilizer? I've heard so much contradicting info on the two subjects. Ranging from Catt light to Phal light and heavy feeders to light feeders.


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## goldenrose (Feb 16, 2013)

What masdies would require catt light? Haven't heard that one.
Light feeders is what I've always heard. When I'm dealing with a plant that has thin roots, common sense tells me NO heavy fertilizer. 

Jason Fischer was guest presenter at our OC in January and he talked about about the ebb flow system they've been using with phrags & how well they're responding, (which I'm setting up now). I think masdies would do great with this system. I find refilling saucers 2-3x a day just won't work for me. There is a low ebb tide system, one could put the pump on a timer & flood the shallow tray 3 times a day.


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## Paul Mc (Feb 16, 2013)

Interesting! Low ebb system. I've seen a guy locally who studies Cypridiums using one. 

I ended up purchasing some larger clear water reservoirs so the time between refilling is decreased since Im leaving today for 2 days, then may be making an emergency trip to TN for a family member in the ICU.


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## Rick (Feb 16, 2013)

The issue that I see most critical for the pleurothalid group in general, that I've not seen discussed (except by Goods) is humidity level. The bulk of them requiring very high humidity at all times. (70-80% minimum)

Some individual species/genera are better than others, but I've never been able to get feeding/watering/lighting/temperature issues compensate for a dry environment.


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## cnycharles (Feb 16, 2013)

I don't think you need to have a fan directly on the pot/reservoir all the time to keep it cool. only if there was really hot weather might this help, but there are other things that you can do to increase the cooling capacity if you really need to.
for what rick suggests above about raising humidity, you could get a really large, fairly tall clay pot and set that in the water, and then put your other pots inside with the wicking material around it (with the plants/pots above the water level). if the outer pot is higher it will help to hold in some humidity and keep some cooler air inside as well as wick and cool the media inside
if you weren't pointing a fan at your wicking pot, then it won't dry out so fast and you won't have to refill as much


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## Erythrone (Feb 16, 2013)

Rick said:


> The issue that I see most critical for the pleurothalid group in general, that I've not seen discussed (except by Goods) is humidity level. The bulk of them requiring very high humidity at all times. (70-80% minimum)
> 
> .



I agree. They are tricky about relative humidity.


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## Erythrone (Feb 16, 2013)

The Orchid Boy said:


> So what do masdevallias need for light and fertilizer? I've heard so much contradicting info on the two subjects. Ranging from Catt light to Phal light and heavy feeders to light feeders.




IMO many Masds can take higher light levels if the temperature is cool but not as much as the larger sun loving species Cattleyas. But I must say many of my Cattleyas are compact hybrids that grow well under the same light level as my Masdies in winter.

Here is an very interesting paper about Masd coccinea, written by Theresa Hill. 

http://hillsviewgardens.com/textfiles/Growing Masdevallia coccinea.pdf


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## Paul Mc (Feb 16, 2013)

Thank you all! This is exactly the type of discussion I was hoping for. I'll read that paper in a bit!


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## Rick (Feb 16, 2013)

"There is an average of rainfall that fluctuates between one thousand five hundred and two thousand eight hundred cubic meter, this is the reason why the monthly relative humidity is in direct relation with the rains, by which the average humidity is 77% during the dry months and 91% in the rainy months."

I pulled this off of a site on Machu Picchu. Now there are highland and lowland Masdies, and Masdies found in other parts of SA, but one of our favorite Masdei species (veitchiana) can be found growing on the walls of Machu Picchu.

Fairly open/bright, but even at the warmest, it looks like it maxes out at 80F, with lows in the low 50's.

There are websites that you can get the moment by moment temp and humidity at Machu Picchu, and I saw some noontime values that dipped into the 50-60% range, but past noon, it rises pretty quick again to >70%.


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## Rick (Feb 17, 2013)

http://courses.missouristate.edu/alexanderwait/notes/lecture notes/lecture 11.htm

Check this out Paul I think implications of low humidity, high temp, and excess fertilizer are integral with issues concerning water and nutrient transport in orchids (especially in upland Pleurothalid species)


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## Paul Mc (Feb 18, 2013)

The Theresa Hill article was very interesting. Some good information there.


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## Paul Mc (Feb 18, 2013)

Rick, that's a good breakdown of how plants deliver nutrients. I think it's aster of finding the correct balance for these guys.

In a side note, I turned the fan off while I was out of town for two days. I returned and maybe half the water had been used as opposed to having to fill daily. I upped the size of The water reservoir to compensate. However, they are still much cooler to the touch than my test potted plant next to it.


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## Erythrone (Feb 18, 2013)

For a cooling effect, you can just put the pot on a larger clay pot and fill with moss. It was great for my Masdies last year.


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## The Orchid Boy (Feb 19, 2013)

I just transferred my only masdevallia into s/h in clay exactly 15 hours ago. It isn't close to a fan or anything, is under T8 lights and hasn't used near as much water as I thought.

What about temperature needs for masdevallias? What is the most comfortable high and low temps that the average cool growing masdevallia can thrive in? What about root temps?


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## Rick (Feb 19, 2013)

The Orchid Boy said:


> I just transferred my only masdevallia into s/h in clay exactly 15 hours ago. It isn't close to a fan or anything, is under T8 lights and hasn't used near as much water as I thought.
> 
> What about temperature needs for masdevallias? What is the most comfortable high and low temps that the average cool growing masdevallia can thrive in? What about root temps?



I think humidity is more important than temperature (but the two work together). 

There's lots of species of masde, and tons of hybrids. So really can't generallize for all of them. But try not to let your top end temp go above 80, and try to get into the 50's at night.

But if you can't maintain a humidity of 60% at that low end temp, you'l probably still be in trouble.


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## goods (Feb 19, 2013)

In regards to necessary humidity to grow Pleurothallids versus low enough humidity to generate an adequate cooling through evaporative cooling, I think growing these in terrariums (high humidity) and hooking up an outside cooling system using home air instead of terrarium air (lower humidity) for cooling is the best combination. If the ambient humidity in your house is less than 50%, you can simply take a rubbermaid container, cut a square out of the side (where you'll attach a cooling pad), add in an aquarium pump that passes water over the pad and a fan that pulls outside air into the container. Connect this to the tank using a dryer duct or something similar and attach a fan to one side of the duct to pull air from the rubbermaid and push air into the tank. 

The key to this is to keep the ambient humidity in the room where this is growing as low as possible. The lower it is, the more efficient the cooling will be. If you live in an environment where the ambient humidity is naturally high for much of the year, this won't work. I've tried it in Louisiana and aside from large greenhouse cooling pads, there is no cooling here.


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