# Paphiopedilum hangianum



## Kavanaru (Jun 13, 2010)

This is a first bloomer. The flower has some deformities which I hope are correct for the next blooming (there is a second flower coming on this spike and a second spike growing too). Not the best shape as it is right now, the petals could also be wider, and the color pattern is not very symetric... however, I think the color of this plant is reason enough to keep it and wait for improvements in the coming years


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## John Boy (Jun 13, 2010)

I hate to say this, but: *that's not a hanginanum*, it seems (hence the colour freakin'out), that there's something or someone else in there as well. Looks like a micrathum-type-pattern colouration to me....

Also the second flower/bud looks suspiciously like a micrathum trait…

*PS: Any chance to see the rest of this plant? I'm wondering what these leafs look like.*


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## Kavanaru (Jun 13, 2010)

John Boy, I also have my doubts about this plant as the staminode does not look 100% like hangianum to me... 

as for micranthum, I would discard it, as it would be the first Paph Paphiopedilum hangianum with plain green leave I would have seen. 

The plant has plain green leave, which makes me discard that this is a primary hibrid with any other Parvi or Brachy.


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## John Boy (Jun 13, 2010)

Ramón, 
I'd be verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrryyyyy careful with that sort of thing. I have seen Glauria Naugle in flower looking like small rothschildianums just by seeing the leafs. I'm sort of unsure if the micrathum leaf-pattern has to be visible in every Hybrid all the time. I have a strong feeling that this doesn't have to the case... But as you say: it would be easier to accept if the pattern would be present... Maybe the others have better ideas.


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## likespaphs (Jun 13, 2010)

i was wondering if it has primulinum in it.


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## PaphMadMan (Jun 13, 2010)

Interesting color/pattern. I haven't had they chance to see hangianum hybrids in person, but my first impression was something like hangianum x Ma Belle.


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## Jorch (Jun 13, 2010)

Could it be Paph Alexej (hangianum x roth)? Of the pictures of hangianum x primulinum available on the web, the petals are not dark colored like Ramon's plant. just my guess  It's definitely a keeper for that color though!


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## Kavanaru (Jun 13, 2010)

ok, here more info about this plant. In theory, it should come from the same or similar batch of hangianum as this one: http://www.popow-orchids.com/module...11&cPath=27051&showpage=3&new=0&location_id=5 )I say in theory, as it was only told to me by the owner of the nursery, but it is not written on the label)

as for hangianumxprimulinum, I have seen many of these plants and they all look different than this flower. Petals are more like "foxhound ears", somehow similar to Golddollar too. and the leve are also completely different. 

Please note that the "pseudo-patterns" on the leave are actually a problem I satarted having since I changed to MSU, and which I have not been able to control yet.


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## paphioland (Jun 13, 2010)

Hang x Roth is my opinion


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## John Boy (Jun 13, 2010)

just what I thought!

Many thanks for these pictures. I've spent the last 20 seconds 2 inches away from the screen with my nose. Most of these leafs are slim enough, and have enough pattern (for me),...for me to uphold my initial micrathum idea. Seeing the more or less entire plant, and the tall spike I'd say micrathum or a strong micrathum primary hybrid...

The only thing that is holding me back is: from a simple hangianum x micrathum (gut-feeling!) I'd have expected a more V-shape staminoid disc, not a flat one, as a delenatii would leave the offsprings with.


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## John M (Jun 13, 2010)

I love it! This is very beautiful; but, it's not pure hangianum. It looks exactly like what I would expect to see from a cross of Harold Koopowitz and hangianum. Check out the photos of Harold Koopowitz on the web and compare the staminode with that of hangianum. The staminode of this flower is intermediate.....so is the rest of the flower. Presumably, a nice, dark hangianum was used to cross with a Harold Koopowitz to get that nice, rich colour in the petals.

It basically looks like an improved Harold Koopowitz, (rounder shape, richer colours), which is what you'd expect a good hangianum parent to do when crossed with HK.


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## John Boy (Jun 13, 2010)

Hmmmm, interesting. 

John, I hear what you say, but have an idea (no idea on what base) that H.K. x hangianum should (or would) mean darker leafs and a bulkier, bigger plant...possibly with much wider leafs. Also, but that's just me again...I'd be expecting much bigger flower from H.K. x hangianum.


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## Kavanaru (Jun 13, 2010)

John Boy said:


> just what I thought!
> 
> Many thanks for these pictures. I've spent the last 20 seconds 2 inches away from the screen with my nose. Most of these leafs are slim enough, and have enough pattern (for me),...for me to uphold my initial micrathum idea. Seeing the more or less entire plant, and the tall spike I'd say micrathum or a strong micrathum primary hybrid...
> 
> The only thing that is holding me back is: from a simple hangianum x micrathum (gut-feeling!) I'd have expected a more V-shape staminoid disc, not a flat one, as a delenatii would leave the offsprings with.



John, as I said, those patterns in the leave has apperaed just recently when I changed to MSU. I have the same problem in most of my other Paphs. They were not there 6 months ago. In that case, you can really trust me that this plant has plain green leave! 

As you said, teh stami of Liberty Taiwan looks different: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/4453780074/


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## John M (Jun 13, 2010)

John Boy said:


> Hmmmm, interesting.
> 
> John, I hear what you say, but have an idea (no idea on what base) that H.K. x hangianum should (or would) mean darker leafs and a bulkier, bigger plant...possibly with much wider leafs. *I don't feel the leaf colour is off. From what I've seen of hangianums, they are normally a grass green, not as dark as this foliage. In fact, this foliage looks pretty dark to me; but, maybe that's just my computer screen? Also, I think that the leaf size and shape depends a lot on the clones used in the breeding. If roth 'Rex' had been use, the offspring would be monstrous! If 'Commander' had been use, the offspring would be very compact. Plus, even though malipoense has relatively wide leaves, roth and hangianum have more strap shaped leaves that are more succulent. The leaves in the photo look about right for me.*Also, but that's just me again...I'd be expecting much bigger flower from H.K. x hangianum. *'Not sure why you are saying that. We haven't been told the size of this flower. You can't accurately tell the size of a flower by looking at a 2 dimentional photo with no ruler for reference.*


..


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## Kavanaru (Jun 13, 2010)

hangianumx roth... hhmm... coloration would be as expected, however, I recall longer petals on that hybrids, and taller spikes too


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## Kavanaru (Jun 13, 2010)

John M, the leave are actually grass green (and I insist, with no pattern, except the problem caused after using MSU!)

the flowers are 12 cm wide (4.7" NS)


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## John M (Jun 13, 2010)

Kavanaru said:


> John M, the leave are actually grass green (and I insist, with no pattern, except the problem caused after using MSU!) *That means the pattern is there - genetically, it's just hidden by the normal amount of chlorophyl. When the production of chlorophyl is thwarted, the pattern shows through. The fact that this plant has a slight pattern (even though it is normally hidden from our eyes), supports the idea that it's got malipoense as a grand parent.*
> 
> the flowers are 12 cm wide (4.7" NS) *Thanks. That's a good size and again, it falls within what I'd expect from a hang x HK hybrid.*
> 
> *Also, notice that the pouch on your flower has a slight pointed up rim right in the front. HK hybrids have a much more pronounced "point" in the same place. I bet Popow Orchids records will show that he was making crosses with a HK at the same time that he crossed his two hangianums. Unfortunately, he got some HK pollen onto the toothpick that was supposed to have only hangianum pollen on it. It would be very interesting to know if Popow could confirm that he made HK crosses at the same time as this hangianum (red x red), cross.*


..


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## John Boy (Jun 13, 2010)

I’m getting your point John. Regarding the size issue:
I agree, you are right! We haven’t been given the flower dimensions before. I have used the wire, clip and wooden-stick to arrive at my judgement, which is not very professional, I admit. On that base the flower does/would appear small, even in hangianum terms. 
The first time I have ever seen a Harold Koopowitz I nearly passed out because of is enormity. I do know that H.K. hybrids do pass on the “big flower gens”…


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## John M (Jun 13, 2010)

Kavanaru said:


> hangianumx roth... hhmm... coloration would be as expected, however, I recall longer petals on that hybrids, and taller spikes too



I disagree with this statment....sorry. Roth primary crosses typically take on the background colour of the other parent....and they retain the striping of the roth parent. Think of bright yellow Dollgoldi, or bright pink Gloria Naugle, or medium pink Delrosi, or honey coloured Lady Isabel, etc. So, I don't think that this is a primary with roth only. Along with roth as a grand parent, I think a particularly dark malipoense is a grand parent and a particularly well coloured hangianum is a parent.


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## Kavanaru (Jun 13, 2010)

John M, I understand what you say, however teh pattern you see there is more a problem with nutrition. similar to what you see in the pictures below (two primary hybrids, species involved: Paph. helenae, Paph charlesworthii and Paph gratrixianum - none ofthem have patterned leave) I also have the same "chlorotic pattern" in two Cattleyas. And though, I would never say these are species with "hidden" pattern.









as for the hangianumxroth color patterned, I said "as expected" as it is the color of the 3 Paph Alexej I have seen. I am not very much into hybridization of Paphiopediul, therefore I do not knoe what is normally to be expected from roth, however, I know what I have seen...


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## John M (Jun 13, 2010)

John Boy said:


> I’m getting your point John. Regarding the size issue:
> I agree, you are right! We haven’t been given the flower dimensions before. I have used the wire, clip and wooden-stick to arrive at my judgement, which is not very professional, I admit. On that base the flower does/would appear small, even in hangianum terms.
> The first time I have ever seen a Harold Koopowitz I nearly passed out because of is enormity. I do know that H.K. hybrids do pass on the “big flower gens”…



Of course, as we debate this, I recognise that nobody is going to be proven to be correct. The provenence of this plant is unknown (at this point) and we are only making educated guesses here. However, I believe that size only is a very weak criteria to use in identification. When you think about any plants, be they dandelions, trilliums, arisaema, etc., there are always some very large clones and some very small ones in the same colony. While the "good" ones are normally big to huge, I've seen some very small roths and downright tiny malipoenses as well as some very small armeniacums and micranthums. Also, perhaps the MSU fertilizer, which seems to be causing some sort of deficiency in this case, has reduced the size of these blooms???


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## Pete (Jun 13, 2010)

it kind of looks like Jade Dragon x Hangi


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## cnycharles (Jun 13, 2010)

interesting discussion. if the plant was getting poor nutrition and had bright light, it would likely be stunted a bit. nutritional deficiencies/imbalances often can show interveinal chlorosis (green pattern) and can be a way to try and discover just which nutritional problem it is .. as far as which parents it has, way beyond me! I definitely agree that it's a nice flower with very nice color even if it is a hybrid


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## paworsport (Jun 13, 2010)

leaves are narrow and the overall look let me think to gardineri plant : clump of small growth with narrow green leaves. The color is close to gardineri too. But in fact I never heard of hangianum x gardineri.....


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## John M (Jun 13, 2010)

Pete said:


> it kind of looks like Jade Dragon x Hangi



That is another VERY good possibility. At first I wondered about that and then dismissed the idea because of the lack of fairieanum-shape influence on the petals and dorsal sepal. However, I've just googled Jade Dragon and found plenty of photos that show the normally very dominant shape of fairieanum are much more subdued than I had remembered. There were many photos of Jade Dragons that if crossed with hangianum could produce a flower just like Kavanaru's. Paph. Jade Dragons even have the pointy tip to the lip rim!

So, if fairieanum is a grand parent and not roth, that would fit with the smaller plant size as well as flower size, colour and shape. Hmmmmm?


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## John Boy (Jun 13, 2010)

Ramón, am I right guessing that there a at least 2 if not 3 seperate (individual) plants within this pot? The second plant-picture sort of gives away that the front plant has narrower leafs than the plant in bloom...and looks different altogether. If that would be right, we'll probably get another shot at guessing when the next one opens up!


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## Kavanaru (Jun 13, 2010)

John Boy, this is only one plant. it came with two larger growths and a small one (this is the one with the second spike) and has grown to a 7 growths plant.


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## PaphMadMan (Jun 13, 2010)

paworsport said:


> leaves are narrow and the overall look let me think to gardineri plant : clump of small growth with narrow green leaves. The color is close to gardineri too. But in fact I never heard of hangianum x gardineri.....



Petals WAY too broad for a gardineri cross.


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## PaphMadMan (Jun 13, 2010)

Pete said:


> it kind of looks like Jade Dragon x Hangi



I could see that - somewhat similar to my hangianum x Ma Belle suggestion.


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## John Boy (Jun 13, 2010)

Just to think it out aloud and to potentially make myself unpopular…
I can’t believe or imagine any rothschildianum or fairianum involvement here. With either I would ever so strongly expect to find some hints within the overall flower shape, or pouch shape or form… I was under the impression that with any fairianum involvement, no matter how far down the tree that would have happened, there would be a flower-shape that would give it away. As for rothschildianum: the staminode-disc doesn’t work for me. And I can’t believe you could hide rothschildianum within a flower to the extend that “only it’s colouration” would show through, but all other aspects like shape, form or its distinct and hairy staminode structure (including its weird and distinct shape) would disappear in full. Most certainly not, if that rothschildianum would only be a parent or grandparent or uncle. Non of this really works for me…


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## Kavanaru (Jun 13, 2010)

here some pics of Paph Alexej I have found in the web:

http://www.slipperorchid.org/gallery.display.photo.asp?image_id=71&lib_id=6
http://www.slipperorchid.org/gallery.display.photo.asp?image_id=72&lib_id=6
http://www.slipperorchid.org/gallery.display.photo.asp?image_id=73&lib_id=6
http://www.cloudsorchids.com/paphs.htm the first plant.

teh plant in ebay http://cgi.ebay.de/Paphiopedilum-Al...en_Garten_Blumen_Pflanzen&hash=item3cae10e36e

also Paph Palace Harmonie (St. Swithin X hangianum)

http://www.slipperorchid.org/gallery.display.photo.asp?image_id=80&lib_id=6
http://www.slipperorchid.org/gallery.display.photo.asp?image_id=81&lib_id=6
http://www.slipperorchid.org/gallery.display.photo.asp?image_id=82&lib_id=6

Paphiopedilum In-Charm Hangbird = (Susan Booth x hangianum )
http://www.slipperorchid.org/gallery.display.photo.asp?image_id=83&lib_id=6
http://www.slipperorchid.org/gallery.display.photo.asp?image_id=84&lib_id=6


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## John Boy (Jun 13, 2010)

*Does it strike you too? *
All these flowers are disfigured or are heavily twisted. Yours isn’t!!!, yours only has slight colouration hiccup. I can’t help it…: there’s no multifloral in your plant! I would think we need to consider the Parvisepalum Primary Hybrids around malipoense and keep our eyes on your staminode disc.


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## PaphMadMan (Jun 13, 2010)

John Boy said:


> *Does it strike you too? *
> All these flowers are disfigured or are heavily twisted. Yours isn’t!!!, yours only has slight colouration hiccup. I can’t help it…: there’s no multifloral in your plant! I would think we need to consider the Parvisepalum Primary Hybrids around malipoense and keep our eyes on your staminode disc.



And none of them come close to the broad petals and full form in general.


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## John Boy (Jun 13, 2010)

*I think I've got a hunch!!!!!!!!!!*

Could you guys consider hangianum x Fanaticum for me please!? Tell me I'm mad!!! I know it anyways!

First I was playing with the albino version of malipoense, (just to get rid of the raspberry colour in the disc)...but mybe we don't have to, since there's so much variation in Fanaticum, depending on the micrathum parent!....

Am I mad?


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## John Boy (Jun 13, 2010)

This would be my father parent:

http://www.slipperorchids.info/paphdatasheets/parvisepalum/micranthum/PaphFanaticum.jpg


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## Mrs. Paph (Jun 13, 2010)

lol, I don't think you're mad - we can't know for sure, so I'd say that's a good contending guess. And I'd agree - if there's any multifloral influence on the hybrid it's back a ways, b/c that's a Beautiful hybrid, and those multi x hang ones are decidedly not! Even without deformities, those other hybrids weren't close in shape.


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## John Boy (Jun 13, 2010)

Kavanaru said:


> *It does fit. Even if I'm mad!*


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## tenman (Jun 13, 2010)

Have you sent these pics to popow and asked him? That would be my first move.


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## Pete (Jun 13, 2010)

it has multiple flowers so it likely has something from cochlopetalum or coryopedilum in it


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## NYEric (Jun 13, 2010)

I'm no paph expert but I'm pretty sure it's not straight hang!


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## paphioland (Jun 13, 2010)

Pete said:


> it kind of looks like Jade Dragon x Hangi



Jade dragon is usually sterile. Has it ever been used as a parent?


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## Kavanaru (Jun 14, 2010)

tenman said:


> Have you sent these pics to popow and asked him? That would be my first move.



I sent the pictures to the nursery where I bought the plant from. I am waiting for their reply (they do not work during the weekend). 

I posted a link to Popow's website, because it is the only picture of "Red" hangianum I know. The plant however is not from him, as I do not buy from him at all anymore: VERY bad experience with his plants (quality and ID), and the last time I contacted him the only answer I received were insults! (I was questioning the sudden price increase of a plant that was cheaper when I placed the order). So, he is now banned from my list of vendors.


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## Kavanaru (Jun 14, 2010)

Pete said:


> it has multiple flowers so it likely has something from cochlopetalum or coryopedilum in it



well, it has two flowers, which can be possible in hangianum two. Normally one flower, rarely two.


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## Pete (Jun 14, 2010)

anything CAN be possible. i'd say 2 flowered hangi's are _very_ rare


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## emydura (Jun 14, 2010)

Can't help on the identification, but it sure is a stunning flower. A keeper for sure.

David


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## Kavanaru (Jun 14, 2010)

Pete said:


> anything CAN be possible. i'd say 2 flowered hangi's are _very_ rare



That's my point.... because the plant has two flowers, it does not necessarily mean a multiflora parent in this case.


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## Kavanaru (Jun 14, 2010)

just another picture I have found ofa very dark hangianum. This would also suggest that the dark coloration in my plant can also have its origin in the hangianum parent.


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## John M (Jun 14, 2010)

Kavanaru said:


> just another picture I have found ofa very dark hangianum. This would also suggest that the dark coloration in my plant can also have its origin in the hangianum parent.



I agree. Some hangianums are really dark. I think baodai's avatar has two hangianums in it...one very dark and the other very yellow.


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## Ayreon (Jun 14, 2010)

No matter what.. I think the flower looks fantastic!


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## Hera (Jun 14, 2010)

How hairy is it and can we get a close-up of the staminode?


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## PaphMadMan (Jun 14, 2010)

Pete said:


> it has multiple flowers so it likely has something from cochlopetalum or coryopedilum in it



I don't know about hangianum, but double flowers are actually somewhat common in some other parvis in my experience.


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## Kavanaru (Jun 14, 2010)

Hera said:


> How hairy is it and can we get a close-up of the staminode?



Hi Hera, 

I have posted larger photos. you can see the stami better here.


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## valenzino (Jun 14, 2010)

At first sight I was thinking at a Primary x hang.
Probably (roth x cochlo) x hang.
Also if the patern is really micranthum like not said that there is micranthum inside.
The flower form is really cochlo x hang like,and a roth parentage inside the cochlo can justifie the colouring and patern.But a cross like Vanguard x hangianum I will expect a different result.

Another choice will be (multy x brachy) x hang
I've seen some multy x brachy with nearly plane green leaves.The added hangianum will be the reason of the enhanced green leaves possibility.
So can also be something like (roth x leucochilum) x hang.

Also can be,as previously said a Paph Alexej with a very nice form.This can be also possible cause there are a lot of this cross around and selling easily cause have nearly always a bad shape.
The plant itself is really Alexej like...and those hybrids are reeeely variable in shape colour and dimension...so...

Still a nice one to keep...is very nice.

Double flower hang is really "a white fly"...is easyer to find an albino one!!!


A characteristic of this flower that is a clue to the parents is the tips of the petals that are hooked...


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## Kavanaru (Jun 14, 2010)

Valenzino, thanks a lot for your input. Do you really think this could be an Alexej? I have not seen many Alexej yet, but all of them had really bad shape... 

as for the hooked tip of the petals, I would not put much attention on it with this particular flower. I am almost sure it is more the result of them not opening freely at the beginning (the bud needed some help to open)... Let's see in the next flowers whether this thread is stable or just an artifact...


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## Pete (Jun 14, 2010)

that is not the result of them not opening freely. it is genetic. i have seen it time and time again around here and abroad on hangi crosses with other subgenera, including brachypetalum


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## Kavanaru (Jun 14, 2010)

hhhmm.. I mean, I have 5 other hangianum hybrids, and none of them has those "hooked" petals... In this plant I just have seen the problems with the flower, so I assumed that was the reason... as I said, time will say...


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## Kavanaru (Jun 14, 2010)

as an extra comment... I have just received Olaf Gruss' opinion about this plant: "I have some problems with the determination of your plant. The colour is correct (for Paph Alexej) but the shape is different, perhaps it is a cross with a primary hybrid."


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## smartie2000 (Jun 14, 2010)

before I started reading this thread I thought to myself farrieanum x hangianum due to the resemblance to Jade Dragon.

I am very disappointed that there is no proper label. this is a good flower and not seen often


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## KyushuCalanthe (Jun 14, 2010)

Certainly the colors are all wrong for a pure hangianum. It is a stunner, regardless!


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## SlipperFan (Jun 14, 2010)

My reaction was -- "That's a hangianum????" I'm glad to see others think it's not the species, also.


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## parvi_17 (Jun 14, 2010)

What a gorgeous plant, even if it isn't hangianum!


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## paworsport (Jun 15, 2010)

Delophyllum x hangianum ? Or (delenatii x cochlo ) x hangianum ? The staminode is close to this type of hybrids and the double flower could be explained , the hairy petals too


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## Drorchid (Jun 15, 2010)

Oh I had not seen this thread yet!

#1 That is one amazing flower!!! :drool::drool:

#2 It definately is NOT a pure hangianum and I have to agree with John M's first idea. I think it is a hangianum crossed onto a primary. One of the parents of the primary parent is definately malipoense. I don't think the primary is a pure parvi (like Fanaticum) because the petals would be much rounder in that case. I don't think it is Jade Dragon either, because Jade Dragon is pretty much sterile and does not breed, and if it was Jade Dragon, the petals would be more reflexed (like a fairrieanum). I am leaning the most towards Harold Koopowitz (malipoense x rothschildianum) as the other parent. I don't think it is a straght Paph. Alexej (hangianum x roth) because the petals are too wide, and the staminode has more of a "parvi" look.

Robert


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## John Boy (Jun 15, 2010)

Hi Robert,
I find it totally impressive how you, or the others come to any possible rothschildianum involvement because *I so can’t see that*.  I assume we are talking about a roth. Primary Hybrid, or maybe a Parvi-Primary x roth hybrid…?! That again means that rothschildianum would only be 3 to 4 stages away form this flower, and I just can’t make out anything rothschildianum here….
For me the only possible answer is something like a pure Parvi primary hybrid like Fanaticum x hanginaum. Anything rothschildianum would have done god-knows-what to the folwers’ shape and that never happened either…

Tata,
JB

PS: I hope you guys realise that this flower is being discussed sort of worldwide and in other Forums too, by now? 
:drool::clap::clap:


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## Drorchid (Jun 15, 2010)

I looked it up and Paph. Harold Koopowitz x hangianum has been registered as Paph. Chen Samn Challenger. I actually found a picture on-line: http://www.paph.idv.tw/tps1/910.JPG 

To me that picture looks like a more beefy Harold Koopowitz, but I do see some hangianum in the staminodal shield so it is possible. But I agree it does not look like our mystery plant, so who knows it may be Fanaticum x hanginaum after all (That would be my 2nd Choice).

Robert


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## Pete (Jun 15, 2010)

i dont think theres been enough breeding time elapsed to have used a roth 4 "stages" (generations) away... Robert is likely correct, a primary of some sort with hangi. whether it has roth or not who knows


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## John M (Jun 15, 2010)

John Boy said:


> Hi Robert,
> I find it totally impressive how you, or the others come to any possible rothschildianum involvement because *I so can’t see that*.  I assume we are talking about a roth. Primary Hybrid, or maybe a Parvi-Primary x roth hybrid…?! That again means that rothschildianum would only be 3 to 4 stages away form this flower, and I just can’t make out anything rothschildianum here….
> For me the only possible answer is something like a pure Parvi primary hybrid like Fanaticum x hanginaum. Anything rothschildianum would have done god-knows-what to the folwers’ shape and that never happened either…



John Boy. I just don't see how you can be missing the roth. I see a lot of possible roth involvement. Presuming the parents involved were both very good quality clones, the perfect shape of the dorsal sepal is very roth-indicative. The slightly downswept slant to the petals is in the same plane as what we see on most roths. The multifloral characteristic supports a multifloral ancestry; ESPECIALLY since one of the parents (hangianum), is predominantly single flowered. But, most of all, the staminode is bang on intermediate between any roth/Parvi hybrid and hangianum. Have you really looked at what a Parvi does to a roth staminode sheild in the first generation (= primary hybrid)? Consider the shape and colour pattern of the staminode sheild on any Delrosi (roth x delenatii), or Dollgoldi (x armeniacum), or Howard Koopowitz (x malipoense), or Gloria Naugle (x micranthum). Then, compare it to a pure hangianum staminode sheild and the staminode sheild on Kavanaru's flower. I believe the basic flower shape comes from HK; but, it's been rounded and "beefed" up a good bit by the addition of hangianum genes. The netting markings in the petals are from the malipoense grand parent and the deep dark colour is from a very dark hangianum parent. It will not be from a roth because roth colour is almost always replaced by the other parent's colours in primary hybrids (Delrosi is pink; Dollgoldi is yellow, Woluwense is white, etc.).

Robert; IMO, that link shows a Harold Koopowitz. I see no hangianum in that at all. I found the same Taiwan website with that photo displayed and the staminode on that flower is virtually identical to the HK that they also posted.


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## Pete (Jun 16, 2010)

it almost looks kind of similar to what youd expect out of like a (malipo x adductum/other multi) x hangi. GoldenRose posted this picture of a Hideki Okuyama but i dont think that crossed with a hangi would result in what were seeing. i saw some multis in taiwan that were things like lady isabel x godefroyae and leucochilum x anitum.. those things kind of also resemble what you would think would be a mate with hangi for this flower..


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## Pete (Jun 16, 2010)

oops
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4857


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## Damas (Jun 16, 2010)

What about Karl Ploberger = (bellatulum x hangianum) ?






















Or Wossner Concohang






Or unregistred hangianum x S.Gratrix






Well, you get the idea : brachypetalum x hangianum ?


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## John Boy (Jun 16, 2010)

No way. You'd be able to see that in the leafs and overall plant.
Nice pictures anyway.


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## Kavanaru (Jun 16, 2010)

Damas said:


> What about Karl Ploberger = (bellatulum x hangianum) ?
> 
> Or Wossner Concohang
> 
> ...



Nope! I have Karl Ploberger, Wössner Concohang, Wössner Favorite and Chou-Yi Yuki, and have as well seen first hand other Brachyxhangianum hybrids. You can strognly see the influence of Brachy on the leave (color and general shape). The general shape of the flowers is also pretty different too (ok, I admit this can vary quite a lot)
I must admit I am quite lost with my plant... I agree that the other parent must by a primary hibrid and not a pure species, however this should be (most probably) a plant "easily" available in Europe (the plant is supposed to be of European origin.. but ok, it was also supposed to be pure hangianum :rollhappy: therefore my credibility on this nursery is as good as non-existent - add lack of response from them to it)


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## Drorchid (Jun 16, 2010)

John M said:


> Robert; IMO, that link shows a Harold Koopowitz. I see no hangianum in that at all. I found the same Taiwan website with that photo displayed and the staminode on that flower is virtually identical to the HK that they also posted.



That is what I thought, OK, I am back to it being HK x hangianum. By the way it is definately not a Brachy x hangianum.

Robert


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## Drorchid (Jun 16, 2010)

I found a picture of Paph. Harold Koopowitz x armeniacum on the web. This gives you an idea of what the flower looks like of HK x a parvi. comparing this to our Mistery plant I still do believe it could be HK x hangianum. The dark colors come from the hangianum parent. Also the roth in its backgound usually darkens the colors.

http://www.incharmorchids.com/galle...4&sessionid=ea29aa813a0a49e9bcbaccc0721b40f7#

Robert


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## John M (Jun 16, 2010)

Drorchid said:


> I found a picture of Paph. Harold Koopowitz x armeniacum on the web. This gives you an idea of what the flower looks like of HK x a parvi. comparing this to our Mistery plant I still do believe it could be HK x hangianum. The dark colors come from the hangianum parent. Also the roth in its backgound usually darkens the colors.
> 
> http://www.incharmorchids.com/galle...4&sessionid=ea29aa813a0a49e9bcbaccc0721b40f7#
> 
> Robert



Very interesting photo. HK x armeniacum is one worth getting! If you imagine that flower with a little bit fuller, rounder shape and with a very dark overlay of mahogany (both from a round, dark hangianum), then, you'd pretty much have a flower like Kavanaru's.

BTW Robert: You say that "....the roth in it's background usually darkens the colours". I've not heard of that. I'm sure that you have WAY more experience and knowledge than I do about how roth genes behave. Does the colour from roth come through in F2 generation hybrids even though it does not seem to come through in F1 generation hybrids? It is interesting that the roth colour genes might be "recaptured" or enhanced in a later gereration.


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## Drorchid (Jun 16, 2010)

John M said:


> BTW Robert: You say that "....the roth in it's background usually darkens the colours". I've not heard of that. I'm sure that you have WAY more experience and knowledge than I do about how roth genes behave. Does the colour from roth come through in F2 generation hybrids even though it does not seem to come through in F1 generation hybrids? It is interesting that the roth colour genes might be "recaptured" or enhanced in a later gereration.



Yes, in general when you cross a roth onto another Paph (from a different group, say a parvi or a vini colored Maudiae) it will intensify the colors, and yes it will probably come through in the F2 generation.

Here is a vini x rothschildianum:
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4149&highlight=nachtwacht
The colors turn out even darker compared to a straight vini, and almost look black.

vietnamense x rothschildianum (Wossner Vietnam Love):
http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/society/ajos/flowerdata2/4351.html
(much darker compared to a vietnamense)

Even when crossed onto a yellow Paph. armeniancum, the yellows become richer and more saturated; Paph Dollgoldi (armeniancum x rothschildianum):
http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/society/ajos/flowerdata2/4354.html

on that same site was a cool picture of Paph. Alexej (rothschilidianum x hangianum):
http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/society/ajos/flowerdata2/4352.html
showing similar "chocolate" colors compared to our mystery plant. Add some "malipoense" genes to the mix and I think we will get Kavanaru's plant.

Robert


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## John M (Jun 16, 2010)

Thanks for the explanation. So, it's not that the roth colour genes are totally cancelled out and have no influence; but, the roth genes have the effect of intensifying the colour of the other parent; no matter what it's colour. That makes sense when you think of the roth primaries that I mentioned. While they are all the colour of the "other" parent, the colours are much more intense than the "other" parent.

That Alexej is awesome! Thanks for posting that link. Although, it's hard to know 100% difinitively, I think that if Kavanaru's plant had been sold as HK x hangianum, nobody would've ever questioned it.


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## John Boy (Jun 16, 2010)

Well, I think the question we should be asking is:
*Where do I get one?*
I don't really care too much what it is, but:

I want one!

Okay put it this way:
*I do care what it is, but i don't mind!*


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## Kavanaru (Jun 16, 2010)

Drorchid said:


> Yes, in general when you cross a roth onto another Paph (from a different group, say a parvi or a vini colored Maudiae) it will intensify the colors, and yes it will probably come through in the F2 generation.


interesting info, I was not aware of that and always thought it was just the roth primary shown were just the best ones... and therefore the colors were always so intense.. 



Drorchid said:


> on that same site was a cool picture of Paph. Alexej (rothschilidianum x hangianum):
> http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/society/ajos/flowerdata2/4352.html
> showing similar "chocolate" colors compared to our mystery plant. Add some "malipoense" genes to the mix and I think we will get Kavanaru's plant.


 hhhmmm.... that's an interesting Paph Alexej... if I compare to the Alexejs I have seen, this is absolutely the best of the best... 



John Boy said:


> Well, I think the question we should be asking is:
> *Where do I get one?*
> I don't really care too much what it is, but:
> 
> ...



hehe, I like your attitude


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## NYEric (Jun 16, 2010)

Addicted!


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## John Boy (Jun 16, 2010)

look who's talkin'!oke:


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## cnycharles (Jun 16, 2010)

interesting discussion! who says you have to pay money to be educated these days?


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## NYEric (Jun 17, 2010)

John Boy said:


> look who's talkin'!oke:


Really!?


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## Hera (Jun 17, 2010)

I've been away for a few days, now I am back and taking another look at the blooms. I keep going back to the shape of the pouch. Its defined somehow that I can't put into words. The hangianum has such a softened and pastel shaded pouch that is quite distinctive. This one reminds me of the shape of something with a shinier, shaplier pouch. My uneducated self(in orchids) says roth.


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## Kavanaru (Jun 17, 2010)

One of the potential parents discussed at some point on this thread was Paph Fanaticum. The Hybrid Fanaticum x hangianum is Paph Alois Handlbauer... Here is a photo of this hybrid, side by side with a photo of m yplant...








quite different I would say...


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## cnycharles (Jun 17, 2010)

I know nothing about staminodes, or which species has what shape and all that, but from the above two pics the two plants' staminodes definitely look different


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## John Boy (Jun 18, 2010)

from what I see, that Alois Handlbauer almost looks like a simple hangianum x malipoense. Where's the micrathum gone off to?


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## Kavanaru (Jun 18, 2010)

no idea... maybe to the Stami and deeper colors?  If I recall it correctly from Shannan, this plant was displayed by Franz Glanz...

it seems that the malipoense staminodium is pretty dominant over hangianum in the primary hybrid (as per google search). This is the Shun-Fa Golden (hangianum x maliponese) I know in flowers:


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## Hien (Jun 18, 2010)

I think your plant does have hangianum bloodline.
The differences in shape , color, & staminode that we see in the pictures may be the results of whether fanaticum or hangianum were used as the mother plant.
I would guess that yours has the fanaticum mother
& the one in the other picture with hangianum mother


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## John Boy (Jun 18, 2010)

Yeah, very good point. Hien has a point there. Given the chance, I wouldn't try hangianum as a mother. Given Fanaticums' ease of growth, and the speed with which they grow...one would take "the long way round" using hangianum as the mother. Having said that...I'd still be using hangianum as mother, when considering the giant-leafed species.


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## John Boy (Jun 19, 2010)

I just found another intersting picture.

http://cgi.ebay.de/Paphiopedilum-Sh...en_Garten_Blumen_Pflanzen&hash=item3cae1dcb6e

I find that one on Ebay, just the flower-picture, rather fantastic. I would assume that this one was made the "malipoense x hangianum way around", whilst your example in post 85 was made the other way arround. Ramón, you wouldn't possibly happen to have a plant picture of that one?


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## Kavanaru (Jun 19, 2010)

JB, there are many photos of Shun-Fa Golden. Different quality of flowers. Some of them are really fantastic (like the one in ebay - which, by the way, I am almost sure I know already from an asian nursery). They all show the strongly dominat malipoense staminodium. http://www.google.com/images?q=Paph...den&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi

as per the info in ebay, the cross of thi splant was also hangianumxmalipoense and not the way around... but as always.... who knows.... hhmm... trying to remember which nursery is orchidfactory02 (I should have this somewhere)

as for the plant I photographed... gosh, I had to check those old pics  I always make a pic of the label at the orchids shows in order to help with the name of the plants later on.. I luckily stil had thi sone  (normally they are deleted after naming the photos)... as you can see, hangianum was the mother  and the leave are strongly "marbled" (which once again, is not the case in my plant) and the plant habitus is also quite different to that of my plant. Note: there are two plants to be seen in the photo. Both of them are the same cross, and the photo of the flower I showed in my previous post, is from the right, from which you see several leave.


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## Kavanaru (Jun 19, 2010)

here is one malipoensexhangianum posted by Olaf Gruss in another forum http://www.slipperorchidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8158

P.S.- if I recall it correctly (I just had a look on the other pictures I had from the orchid show last year in Karlsruhe) the photo I posted earlier is from Franz Glanz (Wössner Orchideen)


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## smartie2000 (Jun 19, 2010)

It cannot be Paph Alois Handlbauer (hangnianum x Fanaticum). You plant does not have a tesselated staminode. I think that almost all of Alois Handlbauer would have tesselated staminodes because both Fanaticum and hangianum have some tesselations in the staminode.

It is not malipoense x hangianum

I can see the Harold Koopowitz x hangianum as a possibility. The dorsal size and width on your plant is suggestive of some roth influence. In addition the color of your paph is extremely dark, and the leaves have lost its tesselation, your plant resembles my hangianum x roth (which easily became multigrowth on my plant. I don't know if I will bloom it and it won't be as spectacular as your plant). As well the staminode is quite plain. 

The only other parvi species I can think of with a plain staminode are Paph delenatii, Paph armeniacum and Paph vietnamense. And this bloom is not a primary cross between any of those.


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## smartie2000 (Jun 19, 2010)

I hope you will get a more positive ID when more hangianum crosses bloom out. Your plant is unlike anything bloomed yet and perhaps distinctive enough to ID. A search of the asian forums might yield better results if your noid is not the first blooming of the hybrid.


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## John Boy (Jun 19, 2010)

I doubt that Ramóns plant was the first to bloom, whatever it is. Just look at its size... They would have flowered elsewhere, I'll bet ya.
One more thing: Fren, you mentioned delenatii. I've been busting my head with that idea as well, but I can't make out how it would fit in, or where.


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## Kavanaru (Jun 19, 2010)

Being honest I also don't see malipoense or Fanaticum as possible parent. Both crosses look to different to me, especially the leave. 

I am also convinced it is not a primary. rothxhang (Alexej) is a NO NO NO, the flowers are way too different too.

The idea HK seems very plausible to me, but I cannot be 100% sure of that (and have not found a single photo of this cross anywhere.

x delenatii is Paph. In-Charm Handel... no way, I have this cross. It has not bloomed for me, but the plant habit is totall ydifferent. I have seen many In-Charm Handel, and tehy are completely different too 
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1102
http://www.cloudsorchids.com/images/5937_0.jpg


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## Kavanaru (Jul 26, 2010)

retaking this thread one month later... few weeks ago I received confirmation from the nursery (not from the owner, but from the guy responsible of the slippers), that the plant was indeed mislabelled and that it should be Paph. Chen Samn Challenge (HKxhangianum... and which is more or less aligned with what we had discussed already)... in theory, the plants were bought from Franz Glanz (but who knows!) 

today, I have found this photo in another forum (link below), and it looks different again... I think I will never know by sure what my plant is... 




http://www.slipperorchidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12529
I must admit, this is also not what I was expecting from HKxhangianum... I was expecting a better shaped flower... 

I am not really sure about this, but... primary hybrids tend to be "quite" homogeneous in appearance, and the more species are involved in a hybrid, the highest variability is obtained, right? Could it be possible that the offspring from a primary with a species could be variable enough to have plants (in the case HKxhangianum) to look more like rothxhangianum and other looking more like malipoensexhangianum? I know that at least in catasetum this is case... this could explain, that if my plant indeed is Paph. Chen Samn Challenge, it could reasonable show differences to the Paph. Chen Samn Challenge shown by Olaf....


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## NYEric (Jul 26, 2010)

Keep guessing! oke:


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## Ryan Young (Jan 25, 2014)

It looks very similar to this one... which is philippinense x hangianum

http://fatmama-paphs.blogspot.ca/2011/07/paph-nathaniels-pride.html


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## NYEric (Jan 25, 2014)

Very similar.


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## troy (Oct 2, 2015)

This is not a straight hangianum!!!


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## Paphluvr (Oct 3, 2015)

Whatever it is, in my book the form and color would make it a keeper. It would be nice to have a positive ID on it though.


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## troy (Oct 3, 2015)

It's a cool bloom, just not a straight hangianum


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## edkravcik (Oct 3, 2015)

Fanaticum x rothschildianum perhaps? Registered as Paph Krull's Lace


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## troy (Oct 3, 2015)

I would have to say that krull's lace looks like the closest match I've seen, with the super popeye pouch trait from the malipoense


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