# Orchiata and Water/fertilizer



## papheteer (Dec 31, 2015)

To those that use orchiata and have great results with it: what type and water and fertilizers do you use? Thanks!


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## Carper (Dec 31, 2015)

Have always used RO water adding only the feed I want in the mix. No problems with breakdown of the bark. I always "pot on" so as not to disturb the roots with no problems.

Gary
UK


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## Justin (Dec 31, 2015)

I have read here i think that ammonia based is recommended...that is what i use with my current fir bark mix but i am switching to orchiata this year...plan to continue with the ammonia/urea...


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## consettbay2003 (Dec 31, 2015)

http://www.besgrow.com/Downloads/Paphiopedilum culture in Orchiata.pdf


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## papheteer (Dec 31, 2015)

Thank you!


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## papheteer (Dec 31, 2015)

Justin said:


> I have read here i think that ammonia based is recommended...that is what i use with my current fir bark mix but i am switching to orchiata this year...plan to continue with the ammonia/urea...



Let me know how it goes for you. i am happy with it for the most part. But there are plants that still prefer the fir bark mix.


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## Ozpaph (Jan 2, 2016)

consettbay2003 said:


> http://www.besgrow.com/Downloads/Paphiopedilum culture in Orchiata.pdf



Thanks - that's useful.


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## Ray (Jan 2, 2016)

FWIW, I have been using K-Lite on plants in Orchiata for several years now, and have no issues.


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## Ozpaph (Jan 2, 2016)

Ray said:


> FWIW, I have been using K-Lite on plants in Orchiata for several years now, and have no issues.



Me too (and other stuff to mix up the fertilizer regimen)


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## consettbay2003 (Jan 3, 2016)

Ozpaph said:


> Me too (and other stuff to mix up the fertilizer regimen)



The 'other stuff' probably contains either some urea or ammonium.


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## Ray (Jan 3, 2016)

And how would you know that?


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## gonewild (Jan 3, 2016)

Does anyone know what the pH of orchiata is after it has been used for a period of time? Like half way through it's life span and then again shortly before it is worn out?

The linked recommendations from Besgrow favor using ammonia nitrogen and the implied reason is to lower the pH of the media. That is necessary to offset the amount of calcium they add to the bark. Over time as the Calcium leaches out the ammonia fertilizer could cause a pH crash.

Ammonia toxicity can be an unseen growth inhibitor.


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## consettbay2003 (Jan 3, 2016)

Ray said:


> And how would you know that?



I didn't say I knew that. I used the word probably.


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## JAB (Jan 3, 2016)

Justin,
Why are you switching to Orchiata?


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## Justin (Jan 3, 2016)

I have used fir bark forever and get great results but am thinking the orchiata will last longer. We did a big group order in our OS so i figured i would give it a try.


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## Ozpaph (Jan 3, 2016)

gonewild said:


> Does anyone know what the pH of orchiata is after it has been used for a period of time? Like half way through it's life span and then again shortly before it is worn out?
> 
> The linked recommendations from Besgrow favor using ammonia nitrogen and the implied reason is to lower the pH of the media. That is necessary to offset the amount of calcium they add to the bark. Over time as the Calcium leaches out the ammonia fertilizer could cause a pH crash.
> 
> Ammonia toxicity can be an unseen growth inhibitor.



Ive had plants in it for over 12 months (though add aragonite for paphs) - how do you want me to test the ph? I could run though RO water or sit in RO water for a while and ph test if that helps?


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## Ozpaph (Jan 3, 2016)

consettbay2003 said:


> The 'other stuff' probably contains either some urea or ammonium.



It does. Though I use the other chemical (as opposed to seaweed etc) fertilizers less than monthly.
I must say that I think the 'key' is the old adage 'weakly-weekly' and good quality water ('city' rain water for watering).


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## gonewild (Jan 3, 2016)

Ozpaph said:


> Ive had plants in it for over 12 months (though add aragonite for paphs) - how do you want me to test the ph? I could run though RO water or sit in RO water for a while and ph test if that helps?



Yes that would help. Try it both ways.
Test fresh bark, have used bark and worn out bark if you can.
Then we can compare the readings and estimate how the bark might change.


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## JAB (Jan 3, 2016)

Thanks Justin. I will have to hit a meeting next time I'm back in Columbus.


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## paphioland (Apr 27, 2016)

Truthfully has anyone used orchiata for years with consistent dense root growth through the medium?


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## abax (Apr 27, 2016)

I don't think Orchiata has actually been around for many years. I've been using Orchiata and K-Lite exclusively for
Paphs. and Phrags. for a couple of years and find it more
than satisfactory. My water is very close to neutral and I
use rain water for the Phrags. Oh, I also use K-Lite for
species and primary Phals. However, I fertilize only about twice a month this time of year.


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## paphioland (Apr 28, 2016)

abax said:


> I don't think Orchiata has actually been around for many years. I've been using Orchiata and K-Lite exclusively for
> Paphs. and Phrags. for a couple of years and find it more
> than satisfactory. My water is very close to neutral and I
> use rain water for the Phrags. Oh, I also use K-Lite for
> species and primary Phals. However, I fertilize only about twice a month this time of year.


It has been around for at least 5 years


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## Ray (Apr 28, 2016)

Orchiata has been available in Hawaii and on the west cast for a while. I started using and carrying it in April 2009, and it had been available on the east coast for a short while before that.

The proper way to use the "pour through" method of pH determination is to water the substrate completely, and let it stand for about an hour. Then, trickle a small volume of pure water (distilled, RO, etc.) over the surface of the medium, and capture the small volume that drains through for testing.


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## paphioland (Apr 28, 2016)

Ray said:


> Orchiata has been available in Hawaii and on the west cast for a while. I started using and carrying it in April 2009, and it had been available on the east coast for a short while before that.
> 
> The proper way to use the "pour through" method of pH determination is to water the substrate completely, and let it stand for about an hour. Then, trickle a small volume of pure water (distilled, RO, etc.) over the surface of the medium, and capture the small volume that drains through for testing.



Do your roots grow through the media? Do you have root bound plants ever?


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## Ray (Apr 28, 2016)

Certainly they grow throughout the potting medium, and yes, the roots fill the pots quite readily.


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## abax (Apr 29, 2016)

Yep! I have excellent root development all the
way to the bottom of the pot.

I didn't know Orchiata had been around that
long. I didn't know about it until Ray began
talking about it. I'm glad he did!


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## paphioland (Apr 29, 2016)

abax said:


> Yep! I have excellent root development all the
> way to the bottom of the pot.
> 
> I didn't know Orchiata had been around that
> ...



How long have you been using it? Do the roots go to the side of the pot and down or all through the media? Most of the positive comments I hear are from people who have financial stake in orchiata. I can tell you in my experience for 4 yrs is that root growth is good in the beginning then the roots start looking to get away from the bark. They go to the sides bottom and top. I never saw this with fir bark.


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## Ozpaph (Apr 29, 2016)

Ray said:


> Certainly they grow throughout the potting medium, and yes, the roots fill the pots quite readily.



That is my experience over 2-3 yrs. Great roots. This might not be quite what you meant - 




image upload with preview


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## gonewild (Apr 29, 2016)

Ozpaph said:


> That is my experience over 2-3 yrs. Great roots. This might not be quite what you meant -



I think his question is are the roots evenly growing all through the pot. Like root bound making a solid mass of roots and not roots thick near the pot edge leaving the center of the media with few roots. Your picture tends to support his complaint that the roots are trying to get away from the bark by leaving the pot rather than filling the center. (I'm neutral on the subject but very interested in the outcome).


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## Ozpaph (Apr 29, 2016)

does it matter? Good healthy roots are good healthy roots. They happen to grow out the bottom because I have them on a constantly damp surface.


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## Ray (Apr 29, 2016)

I don't view roots growing around the perimeter of the pot as a negative either, and certainly don't see it as "trying to get away from the medium". Instead, I view it as a way the plant is attempting to get itself mechanically stabilized in the pot.

Orchiata is not nearly as compressible as softer ingredients, like steamed fir bark and CHC, so if used dry, or with minimal pre treatment, it may move around in the pot more easily, so cannot provide the stability the plant needs. I find that if I pour very hot water on it (not soaking, but just enough to wet it thou roughly with minimal runoff), wait 15-30 minutes, then repeat, it "opens up" the structure, making it softer and easier to pack in the pot, and it holds water better going forward.


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## paphioland (Apr 29, 2016)

gonewild said:


> I think his question is are the roots evenly growing all through the pot. Like root bound making a solid mass of roots and not roots thick near the pot edge leaving the center of the media with few roots. Your picture tends to support his complaint that the roots are trying to get away from the bark by leaving the pot rather than filling the center. (I'm neutral on the subject but very interested in the outcome).



This is exactly what I'm asking. I am neutral as well. I'm hoping I don't have to chuck the rest of my pallet of orchiata.


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## paphioland (Apr 29, 2016)

Ozpaph said:


> does it matter? Good healthy roots are good healthy roots. They happen to grow out the bottom because I have them on a constantly damp surface.



So when you repot do the roots go through out the pot? If so can you share what you put in the bark.
I think it does matter. Id rather have roots through out the whole pot. After awhile the plant stops trying to drive new roots in the medium as much as other mediums Ive used. This problem seems to be the worst for seedlings. Again this is my experience. I am going to try to add some other supplemental material to the bark in addition to the perlite charcoal and lava.

If orchiata only gets good root growth for one year through the medium then you need to repot there is not any advantage in my mind.


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## gonewild (Apr 29, 2016)

paphioland said:


> I am going to try to add some other supplemental material to the bark in addition to the perlite charcoal and lava.



Commercial Phal growers add about 10% peat moss to bark. I have read and been told that this helps keep the roots in the pot as opposed to growing out looking for a more favorable environment. Rather than outward the roots grow into and fill the center of the media in theory.

We started adding peat moss and I do notice the roots do stay more in the pots. (I'm not using bark, but a similar material)

Roots not filling the center of the media may mean the media is to dense without enough ventilation. Keep in mind roots of epiphytes normally grow on living bark not dead wood.


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## Stone (Apr 30, 2016)

gonewild said:


> Commercial Phal growers add about 10% peat moss to bark. I have read and been told that this helps keep the roots in the pot as opposed to growing out looking for a more favorable environment. Rather than outward the roots grow into and fill the center of the media in theory.
> 
> We started adding peat moss and I do notice the roots do stay more in the pots. (I'm not using bark, but a similar material)
> 
> Roots not filling the center of the media may mean the media is to dense without enough ventilation. Keep in mind roots of epiphytes normally grow on living bark not dead wood.



Bark is alive?


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## Ozpaph (Apr 30, 2016)

So I unpotted this plant just for you, Ken.
Orchiata + jumbo perlite + some charcoal.




image hosting over 10mb


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## naoki (Apr 30, 2016)

Stone said:


> Bark is alive?



It seems weird, but bark of living trees contains living cells (under the botanical definition of bark). Technically, bark is anything outside of vascular cambium, so secondary phloems (living cells) are a component of bark. What we casually call bark is botanically "cork", which is dead cells! Pretty confusing, and its a good exam question for my intro botany class!


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## gonewild (Apr 30, 2016)

Stone said:


> Bark is alive?



When bark is attached to a living plant it is alive and growing.
When bark is detached from the plant it is dead like wood.

As dead wood decays it looses it's ability to support the orchid plant.
Roots can detect this decay and will grow "outward" in search of a solid object to anchor the plant to so the plant does not fall.

Because a mass of bark in the center of the pot is dead the roots may be growing outward and attaching to the solid pot wall rather than into the center of the mass of decaying "dead wood". 

Maybe Orchiata works well because it is fortified with mineral lime and that hides the decay from the roots, tricks them into thinking the bark is actually a rock. :rollhappy:
But when the lime is finally leached out the roots leave (die and rot away).
Add another component to the bark media like perilite, charcoal, or moss and the roots feel more secure to live in the center of the pot so they stay. (I said maybe).


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## Stone (Apr 30, 2016)

Ozpaph said:


> So I unpotted this plant just for you, Ken.
> Orchiata + jumbo perlite + some charcoal.
> 
> 
> ...



Nice! What is the plant?


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## Stone (Apr 30, 2016)

Stone said:


> The outer bark on trees (the stuff we use to grow orchids) is dead. In Pinus radiata, (orchiata) anything up to 15 layers (years) thick is dead tissue. In other species it can be just a few cells thick.
> It probably resists attack from bacteria because it does not stay wet for long enough on the tree. Possibly some compounds get absorbed into it from deeper tissue???? But certainly not alive.
> http://www.botgard.ucla.edu/html/botanytextbooks/generalbotany/barkfeatures/fulltextonly.html


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## gonewild (Apr 30, 2016)

Stone said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > The outer bark on trees (the stuff we use to grow orchids) is dead. In Pinus radiata, (orchiata) anything up to 15 layers (years) thick is dead tissue. In other species it can be just a few cells thick.
> ...


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## Ozpaph (Apr 30, 2016)

Susan Booth ‘Highercombe’


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## paphioland (Apr 30, 2016)

Ozpaph said:


> So I unpotted this plant just for you, Ken.
> Orchiata + jumbo perlite + some charcoal.
> 
> 
> ...



I appreciate that. Do the roots grow into the center of the bark mass? The peripheral roots are great! How often do you repot? I've noticed in the plants I've tried to leave more than a year without repotting but the length between reporting is purported to be a benefit.


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## Stone (May 1, 2016)

gonewild said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > Are you making a statement or quoting someone or something?
> ...


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## Ozpaph (May 1, 2016)

I simply pulled the plant out of the pot and the rootball and 'mix' stayed intact. I assume there are roots in the middle but I wasnt about to shake it out with winter coming. That being said I still think healthy roots are healthy roots. 
I dont think roots necessarily grow evenly through the pot. In nature they grow attached to surfaces - rock/bark etc through 'leaf litter'. They 'seek' solid surfaces so I don't expect them to 'sit' in the middle of the pot.
I repot 2nd yearly, in general. I do that because mostly they need the next size pot by then. I also think they respond to 'fresh' mix. Whether that means the 'trauma' stimulates new roots or that removing 'old/toxic' mix is good for them, I dont know.
Since changing to Orchiata a couple of years ago my catts and paphs are definitely better (obviously not a controlled experiment) - through better roots primarily.


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## gonewild (May 1, 2016)

Stone said:


> gonewild said:
> 
> 
> > The very fact that you feel it necessary to ask that makes me want to not answer.
> ...


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## gonewild (May 1, 2016)

Stone said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > The outer bark on trees (the stuff we use to grow orchids) is dead. In Pinus radiata, (orchiata) anything up to 15 layers (years) thick is dead tissue. In other species it can be just a few cells thick.
> ...


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## paphioland (May 1, 2016)

Ozpaph said:


> I simply pulled the plant out of the pot and the rootball and 'mix' stayed intact. I assume there are roots in the middle but I wasnt about to shake it out with winter coming. That being said I still think healthy roots are healthy roots.
> I dont think roots necessarily grow evenly through the pot. In nature they grow attached to surfaces - rock/bark etc through 'leaf litter'. They 'seek' solid surfaces so I don't expect them to 'sit' in the middle of the pot.
> I repot 2nd yearly, in general. I do that because mostly they need the next size pot by then. I also think they respond to 'fresh' mix. Whether that means the 'trauma' stimulates new roots or that removing 'old/toxic' mix is good for them, I dont know.
> Since changing to Orchiata a couple of years ago my catts and paphs are definitely better (obviously not a controlled experiment) - through better roots primarily.



Thanks for your experience.


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## Ray (May 1, 2016)

Having unpotted a few plants that needed to be moved to larger pots, I assure you that roots grow throughout the medium. I'm not about to unpot one just to prove it to you, though.


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## gonewild (May 1, 2016)

Ray said:


> Having unpotted a few plants that needed to be moved to larger pots, I assure you that roots grow throughout the medium. I'm not about to unpot one just to prove it to you, though.



Ray, I hope you are not speaking to me because I did not ask the question or request "proof". I'm just interested in the accurate outcome of the request.
But one point that was made along with the question was that the "proof" should come from someone that does not have a financial interest in promoting Orchitia. (no offense to you).


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## Ray (May 1, 2016)

First and foremost, I do not promote or sell ANYTHING that I do not use and believe in. I have found Orchiata to be an excellent potting medium, and have experienced none of the issues others claim to have seen.

Also, my financial interest in promoting it is soon to end. As my current stock is sold, I will no longer be carrying it. That applies to PrimeAgra, too, as I am narrowing my product line down to chemicals, RO systems and components, and lighting.

However, I will be holding onto some of each for my own use, will simply be a retail customer of them in the future, and will continue to promote them.


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## gonewild (May 1, 2016)

Ray said:


> First and foremost, I do not promote or sell ANYTHING that I do not use and believe in. I have found Orchiata to be an excellent potting medium, and have experienced none of the issues others claim to have seen.
> 
> Also, my financial interest in promoting it is soon to end. As my current stock is sold, I will no longer be carrying it. That applies to PrimeAgra, too, as I am narrowing my product line down to chemicals, RO systems and components, and lighting.
> 
> However, I will be holding onto some of each for my own use, will simply be a retail customer of them in the future, and will continue to promote them.



Of course Ray. That's why I said no offense to you.


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## paphioland (May 1, 2016)

What I've taken from this is orchiata works well for one to two years and needs repotting just like other bark. The environment is probably toxic judging by the ph at the pot I've done over the years. The bark looks fine after years but the roots don't. This is what is suspected from my own experience. I still don't think the roots love the bark as much as fir bark but it doesn't break down as easy. I guess everything has advantages and disadvantages.


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## Ozpaph (May 1, 2016)

I certainly dont.
What does Orchiata cost in the USA?


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## paphioland (May 1, 2016)

Ozpaph said:


> I certainly dont.
> What does Orchiata cost in the USA?



You don't repot every one to two years?


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## Ozpaph (May 1, 2016)

I repot every 2 years for most paphs. Some of the big multis I leave 3 years. Catts I leave 3 years, mostly. They seem very happy. Orchiata is certainly much more 'resilient' that the stuff we've had in Oz for the last 5-10yrs. Its noticeably and considerably better than any local product (I havent tried 'Kiwi Bark').

Cost in USA???


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## paphioland (May 1, 2016)

I don't remember the cost. I bought a pallete


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## Ozpaph (May 1, 2016)

anyone, please?


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## Stone (May 2, 2016)

http://www.quarteracreorchids.com/orchiata.html


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## Ozpaph (May 2, 2016)

Thanks - so it cheaper here? (after exchange rates)


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## cattmad (May 2, 2016)

Yep cheaper here. I think the shipping may hurt over there


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## Stone (May 2, 2016)

Ozpaph said:


> Thanks - so it cheaper here? (after exchange rates)


 And so it should be!


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## kiwi (May 2, 2016)

I feel very lucky I pay NZ$13 about US$9 per 40L oke:. However, it is very difficult to get hold of here as most of it is exported.


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## Ozpaph (May 2, 2016)

you dirty dog!


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