# Tobacco Mosaic Virus in paphs



## papheteer (Jun 1, 2014)

A local grower that I know smokes is selling some of his paphs and I am interested in a few. My worry though is I have seen him smoke and touch his plants after. I have read somewhere that the virus can be passed to orchids simply by touching them. How susceptible are paphs to this? Any thoughts? [email protected]!!


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## Justin (Jun 1, 2014)

i would be concerned too.


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## TyroneGenade (Jun 1, 2014)

Has there ever been a confirmed case of TMV in Paphs?


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## lepetitmartien (Jun 1, 2014)

http://www.buffalo-niagaragardening.com/2011/11/15/quit-smoking-now-its-bad-for-your-plants/
See comments…

I'm looking into horribly serious books for references… I've found a reference for TMV in Cypripedium.


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## lepetitmartien (Jun 1, 2014)

- TMV and ORSV a very closely related viruses.
- the reference I've written a little about is not good enough, I've read too fast… not the right virus on the right genus.

In my "Maladies à virus des plantes ornementales" by Josette Albouy & Jean-Claude Devergne, ed. INRA (french national institute for agricultural research), 1998, they list specifically TMV (TMV-O, for orchids) as infecting orchids, though they give reference for an article on TMV on Orchis and that's all. There's also TRV (tobacco rattle virus) infecting orchids.

For all tobamoviruses, they are persistant in outside of plant conditions, and transmitted by simple contact or sap.

Agdia has a flashkit for TMV, valid for many but not all tobamoviruses (Cucumber green mottle mosaic virus (CGMMV), Kyuri green mottle mosaic virus, Odontoglossum rinspot virus (ORSV), Pepper mild mottle virus (PMMoV), Ribgrass mosaic virus (RMV), Streptocarpus flower break virus (SFBV), Sunhemp mosaic virus (SHMV), Tobacco mosaic virus including common strain (TMV and TMV-c), Tomato mosaic virus (ToMV).) If needed, I would ask Agdia if the TMV-O is detected specifically by this test.


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## Ozpaph (Jun 1, 2014)

I wouldnt worry to much if the plant looks healthy and its worth buying - can always test it.


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 5, 2014)

Oh, my...soooo many virus everywhere!!!

Everytime I prepare salad, or washing & eating fruits, I get all paranoid.
Will my hands be all contaminated now?

I mean I rarely touch my orchids, but then I do move them around quite a bit for watering. Who knows what virus particles find their way from my hands into water into the roots or leaves...
I hope this does not happen, but definitely possible.

Such headache....


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 5, 2014)

lepetitmartien said:


> - TMV and ORSV a very closely related viruses.
> - the reference I've written a little about is not good enough, I've read too fast… not the right virus on the right genus.
> 
> In my "Maladies à virus des plantes ornementales" by Josette Albouy & Jean-Claude Devergne, ed. INRA (french national institute for agricultural research), 1998, they list specifically TMV (TMV-O, for orchids) as infecting orchids, though they give reference for an article on TMV on Orchis and that's all. There's also TRV (tobacco rattle virus) infecting orchids.
> ...



Do you know how long TMV related viruses can stay viable outside the host organisms??


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## Linus_Cello (Sep 5, 2014)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Do you know how long TMV related viruses can stay viable outside the host organisms??



Supposedly, one's plants can get TMV infected from aerosolized tobacco (i.e., smoking)


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 5, 2014)

Yes, but I want to see any proof that a smoker's hand touching a healthy plant can transmit the virus.
I have also read it somewhere, but it seems like one of those stories that gets spread around.

Maybe it is ture, mayb not, but I want to know.


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## Linus_Cello (Sep 5, 2014)

It's not the smoker's hand, but "second had smoke" that supposedly spreads TMV.


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## Erythrone (Sep 5, 2014)

Linus_Cello said:


> Supposedly, one's plants can get TMV infected from aerosolized tobacco (i.e., smoking)



I wonder how a "burnt" virus on smoke can be harmfull to plant.


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## Chicago Chad (Sep 5, 2014)

> I wonder how a "burnt" virus on smoke can be harmfull to plant.



Exactly. Naoki do you have any technical info on this?


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## daniella3d (Sep 5, 2014)

sounds highly unlikely. Maybe there are lots of myths around about this? not sure if it can be true.




Erythrone said:


> I wonder how a "burnt" virus on smoke can be harmfull to plant.


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## Erythrone (Sep 5, 2014)

daniella3d said:


> sounds highly unlikely. Maybe there are lots of myths around about this? not sure if it can be true.




I am with you... I tried many times to find scientific proofs .... For me it is a "légende urbaine" (I did not know how to translate it in English... I just discovered I should write... urban legend! :rollhappy: )


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## daniella3d (Sep 5, 2014)

Oh my....very long it seams:

"Tobacco mosaic virus is the most persistent plant virus known. It has been known to survive up to 50 years in dried plant parts. "

http://www.extension.umn.edu/garden/yard-garden/vegetables/tomato-tmv-disease/

"The most common sources of virus inoculum for tobacco mosaic virus are the debris of infected plants that remains in the soil and certain infected tobacco products that contaminate workers hands. Cigars, cigarettes, and pipe tobaccos can be infected with tobacco mosaic virus. Handling these smoking materials contaminates the hands, and subsequent handling of plants results in a transmission of the virus. Therefore, do not smoke while handling or transplanting plants."

and, this is scary:

"Dipping tools in household bleach is not effective for virus decontamination."

conflicting information:

"To reduce infection of plants with TMV all tools should be washed with soap or a 10% solution of household bleach to inactivate the virus."

http://www.apsnet.org/edcenter/intropp/lessons/viruses/Pages/TobaccoMosaic.aspx




Happypaphy7 said:


> Do you know how long TMV related viruses can stay viable outside the host organisms??


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## Chicago Chad (Sep 5, 2014)

> Viruses differ from fungi and bacteria in that they do not produce spores or other structures capable of penetrating plant parts. Since viruses have no active methods of entering plant cells, they must rely upon mechanically caused wounds, vegetative propagation of plants, grafting, seed, pollen, and being carried on the mouth parts of chewing insects. Tobacco mosaic virus is most commonly introduced into plants through small wounds caused by handling and by insects chewing on plant parts.



(from the article)
If this is correct, smoking alone is not a problem for transferring the virus.


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## likespaphs (Sep 5, 2014)

i was always told that tmv can be transferred by touching a cigarette (or other source of the virus) that one can transmit it
as such, i wasn't allowed to pot up anything in that family without gloves
but i have no facts to support this


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## lepetitmartien (Sep 5, 2014)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Do you know how long TMV related viruses can stay viable outside the host organisms??


No.

We need more money, and more people studying this… And it's clearly not a top priority for mainstream phytopathology research (totally focused on a few agricultural crops).

AFAIK, there's only a few labs working on orchids diseases in Holland, France, Taiwan, Madagascar… And they all have an interest into genus that have an economic interest (Vanilla, phals, dens, oncidium hybrids). Paphs are not top of list. oke:


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## lepetitmartien (Sep 5, 2014)

For the virus itself, all depends on the type and its sensibility to aggression (dryness, heat…) It's specific to the family of the virus for general properties and the peculiar virus studied. 

I won't bet without literature under hand about the resistance of a proteic capsid. It tooks years to have some certitudes on HIV resistance outside a body…


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## naoki (Sep 5, 2014)

Chicago Chad said:


> Exactly. Naoki do you have any technical info on this?



no, Chad, virus is an extremely cool organism, but I have only basic knowledge. I would guess that if it is under high heat, most vidi would be broken down in the smoke. I recently bought a book, but I haven't read it yet. 

http://www.naktuinbouw.nl/en/form/form-viruses-orchids

Title: Viruses of Orchids: Symptoms, Diagnosis, Spread and Control
Authors: Narinobu Inouye, Koa Harvey, Harm Huttinga
Publisher: Blue Bird Publishers, 2008
ISBN: 9079598038, 9789079598038
Length: 176 pages

I bought the original Japanese version, but the link has English version. It seems to be much more detailed than the AOS booklet. Some of you might be interested in it.

There are multiple strains of TMV, and I wonder if Nicotiana can have orchid type.


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## Paphman910 (Sep 5, 2014)

Not so sure about second hand smoke transferring virus since it is burnt! 

Also I am not sure if a smoker could inflect a plant just by touching the leaves as the virus needs to penetrate the cell wall on the surface of the plant.

A virus transmission would more likely to spread by insects and mites!


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## lepetitmartien (Sep 5, 2014)

Some viruses need 500°C + to be destroyed… oke::evil: bwahahaha

Now, I'd be more afraid of a smoker of cigars, cigarillos and the like or of people rolling their cigarettes and other uses of raw tobacco. Their big dirty fingers are directly in contact with tobacco unburnt.

In doubt there's an agdia test including TMV.:viking:


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## Paphman910 (Sep 5, 2014)

lepetitmartien said:


> Some viruses need 500°C + to be destroyed… oke::evil: bwahahaha
> ....



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire


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## eaborne (Sep 5, 2014)

lepetitmartien said:


> Agdia has a flashkit for TMV, valid for many but not all tobamoviruses (Cucumber green mottle mosaic virus (CGMMV), Kyuri green mottle mosaic virus, Odontoglossum rinspot virus (ORSV), Pepper mild mottle virus (PMMoV), Ribgrass mosaic virus (RMV), Streptocarpus flower break virus (SFBV), Sunhemp mosaic virus (SHMV), Tobacco mosaic virus including common strain (TMV and TMV-c), Tomato mosaic virus (ToMV).) If needed, I would ask Agdia if the TMV-O is detected specifically by this test.



Agdia has a test that tests for both CymMV and ORSV together, which I have used numerous times. TMV-O is the name used in previous years and in older literature for ORSV, which is now what it is referred as. This is explained in detail in the book How to Control Orchid Viruses, by Gail Wisler, and also in the book Orchid Pests and Diseases, published by the AOS. (This is the bad one that causes color break, so it is easy to see as long as the plant is not asymptomatic.) 
I have read conflicting info regarding the actual TMV, non orchid strain and it's transmission.

ORSV has been found in dried tissue over 30 years old.


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## Justin (Sep 5, 2014)

tobacco plant material in the form of dust is also all over the outside of the cigarette and filter...


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## daniella3d (Sep 5, 2014)

From what I understand, if a person handle a cigarette and then handle plants he or she could transmit the virus. It is best not to smoke and wash the hands before handling plants just in case some of the virus could be in the cigarette. nasty habbit anyway.



Justin said:


> tobacco plant material in the form of dust is also all over the outside of the cigarette and filter...


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 6, 2014)

Just to be safe, I guess I'll have to ask if the vendors and their employees smoke at work next time I buy plants. hahaha

The shocking info, although not proven, is that comment about the house bleach.

I do not reuse old pots and just toss of course, but I have reused some decorative pots after washing it with house bleach. I'm freaking out!!!

In the end, pot plants under cultivation are exposed to virus issues at much greater degree compared to plants in the wild I would assume. All that handling...

While in the wild, plants just sit there and live without harm unless some bugs carrying virus come by and chew on them, or some virused plants fall on them by accident and thus damage them.

This is such a headache that sometimes makes me quit growing plants.


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## Ray (Sep 6, 2014)

Paphman910 said:


> Not so sure about second hand smoke transferring virus since it is burnt!


But do we know if all of the vapors leaving a cigarette are combustion products? Couldn't they simply be vaporized at lower temperatures?


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## gonewild (Sep 6, 2014)

Happypaphy7 said:


> While in the wild, plants just sit there and live without harm unless some bugs carrying virus come by and chew on them, or some virused plants fall on them by accident and thus damage them.



If plants just sit there and live without harm then how did some plants get the virus and fall? oke:

Wild plants are exposed to multitudes more pathogens and diseases than plants in cultivation. Thousands of insects pass over wild orchids, in a home collection or nursery there are relatively few insects.

And remember Tobacco Mosaic Virus is not something the tobacco companies invented it is a pathogen that exists in wild plants also.


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## gonewild (Sep 6, 2014)

Ray said:


> But do we know if all of the vapors leaving a cigarette are combustion products? Couldn't they simply be vaporized at lower temperatures?



Yes! As a smoker inhales the hot air (smoke) is drawn through the cigarette and would vaporize some plant juices before they reach a sterilizing temperature and that could easily carry live virus air born.


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## daniella3d (Sep 6, 2014)

Don't forget that both sites I have posted seem to be knowledgeable and serious sites, yet they have conflicting information about the bleach. One says it's not going to kill the virus, the other says to use 10% bleack. So I it's hard to tell which is true.

I would not worry if I was you, but maybe in the future just use heat as well as bleach!

Though, how common is this virus? I may have been lucky but I never saw this virus in plants sold around my area.




Happypaphy7 said:


> The shocking info, although not proven, is that comment about the house bleach.
> 
> I do not reuse old pots and just toss of course, but I have reused some decorative pots after washing it with house bleach. I'm freaking out!!!
> 
> ...


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## daniella3d (Sep 6, 2014)

Another good reason to quit smoking!

No orchid user should smoke!



gonewild said:


> Yes! As a smoker inhales the hot air (smoke) is drawn through the cigarette and would vaporize some plant juices before they reach a sterilizing temperature and that could easily carry live virus air born.


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## NYEric (Sep 6, 2014)

Um, no one should smoke.


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 6, 2014)

gonewild said:


> If plants just sit there and live without harm then how did some plants get the virus and fall? oke:
> 
> Wild plants are exposed to multitudes more pathogens and diseases than plants in cultivation. Thousands of insects pass over wild orchids, in a home collection or nursery there are relatively few insects.
> 
> And remember Tobacco Mosaic Virus is not something the tobacco companies invented it is a pathogen that exists in wild plants also.



uh...that is exactly what I said in the quote you used.
You are talking about the first half of the quote I think.


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 6, 2014)

daniella3d said:


> Don't forget that both sites I have posted seem to be knowledgeable and serious sites, yet they have conflicting information about the bleach. One says it's not going to kill the virus, the other says to use 10% bleack. So I it's hard to tell which is true.
> 
> I would not worry if I was you, but maybe in the future just use heat as well as bleach!
> 
> Though, how common is this virus? I may have been lucky but I never saw this virus in plants sold around my area.



Confusing indeed.

The thing is that virused plants can be symptomless.


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## lepetitmartien (Sep 7, 2014)

eaborne said:


> Agdia has a test that tests for both CymMV and ORSV together, which I have used numerous times. TMV-O is the name used in previous years and in older literature for ORSV, which is now what it is referred as. This is explained in detail in the book How to Control Orchid Viruses, by Gail Wisler, and also in the book Orchid Pests and Diseases, published by the AOS. (This is the bad one that causes color break, so it is easy to see as long as the plant is not asymptomatic.)
> I have read conflicting info regarding the actual TMV, non orchid strain and it's transmission.
> 
> ORSV has been found in dried tissue over 30 years old.


The INRA book a use as reference does discriminate between TMV-O and ORSV (note I don't have it here, I'm on holidays) But it's a bit "old" (1998) but a state of things way more recent than the Wisler (1989). I should buy the AOS book btw.)

You're right on ORSV as the only one with a clear symptom, not definitive but seriously raising the mark on the bin solution. I take personally that a repetitive break is enough to trash. Twice is enough. :fight:


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## Erythrone (Sep 7, 2014)

Here is an interesting study:
A.J. Hayes. 2008. GREENHOUSE SANITATION: EFFICACY OF DISINFECTANTS ON CUTTING BLADES USING TOBACCO MOSAIC VIRUS ON PETUNIA AS A 
MODEL

https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream...d=632E3380D9D6697B3890E2AD50AB39D8?sequence=1


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## daniella3d (Sep 7, 2014)

I guess that study says it all, bleach is effective in destroying the virus.

"Despite the detrimental effects (corrosion) on the blades, bleach
was one of the most effective treatments to reduce TMV transmission"

Very good to know, thanks for the link!



Erythrone said:


> Here is an interesting study:
> A.J. Hayes. 2008. GREENHOUSE SANITATION: EFFICACY OF DISINFECTANTS ON CUTTING BLADES USING TOBACCO MOSAIC VIRUS ON PETUNIA AS A
> MODEL
> 
> https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream...d=632E3380D9D6697B3890E2AD50AB39D8?sequence=1


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