# Brown areas on Phragmipedium besseae leaves



## Ghosthunt64 (Aug 18, 2013)

So, I've had this Phragmipedium besseae 'Big Bob' x 'Colossal' for a while now and it has recently taken off in light of the fact that I'm actually taking care of it now. This plant has had these brown spots for a while but I had always assumed that it was simple mechanical damage. Now, though, they appear to have become a little soft & sticky. I'm going to assume that whatever it is, the prescription will be "chop off the parts that are doing that, sterilize the wound, and see what happens," but I'd still like a second opinion...


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## keithrs (Aug 18, 2013)

I'm not one that's to good at telling by pic what the issue is, I would heat up(each cut) some scissors and chop the parts in question off.


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## Trithor (Aug 18, 2013)

Difficult to tell from a picture showing a leaf at a time. But those pale luscent areas are very worrying, they normally indicate cell damage from infection. Do you have any pictures of the leaf undersides? In the interim, I would isolate the plant.


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## ehanes7612 (Aug 18, 2013)

quite common, this happens with besseae when the plant is stressed (change your culture, maybe not enough water?)..usually doesnt go very far as besseae seems to have good counter measures (much better than paphs), ..I would just cut the affected region


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## Ghosthunt64 (Aug 18, 2013)

keithrs said:


> I'm not one that's to good at telling by pic what the issue is, I would heat up(each cut) some scissors and chop the parts in question off.



I plan on doing that as well as repotting it later today.



Trithor said:


> Difficult to tell from a picture showing a leaf at a time. But those pale luscent areas are very worrying, they normally indicate cell damage from infection. Do you have any pictures of the leaf undersides? In the interim, I would isolate the plant.








I isolated the plant as soon as I noticed the problem.


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## phraggy (Aug 18, 2013)

I would just cut the affected parts off and seal the wounds with wood glue. Keep the plant wet ( not damp ) and go easy on the fertilizer. Phrags are not big feeders and they show too much fert is being given by the drying and browning of leaf tips.

Ed


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## Ghosthunt64 (Aug 18, 2013)

phraggy said:


> I would just cut the affected parts off and seal the wounds with wood glue. Keep the plant wet ( not damp ) and go easy on the fertilizer. Phrags are not big feeders and they show too much fert is being given by the drying and browning of leaf tips.
> 
> Ed



Thanks, I've done as said and repotted it while I was at it. I'm keeping it isolated, just to be safe. Will keep you posted.


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## keithrs (Aug 18, 2013)

A hot knife or scissors will seal the wound...


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## Ghosthunt64 (Aug 18, 2013)

keithrs said:


> A hot knife or scissors will seal the wound...



I sterilized the clippers after every cut with a blowtorch.


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## keithrs (Aug 18, 2013)

Ghosthunt64 said:


> I sterilized the clippers after every cut with a blowtorch.



The leaves should sizzle when you cut it to seal it.


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## NYEric (Aug 18, 2013)

Those are not a real problem.


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## Trithor (Aug 19, 2013)

NYEric said:


> Those are not a real problem.



What do you think they are? (I mean that in all seriousness) I only have a few phrags, and have never managed to grow them well. I have always found them to be very prone to rots in my conditions (obviously far from ideal conditions)


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## NYEric (Aug 19, 2013)

It's not in the crown and is therefore exposed to air. Phrags mostly rot fatally from the crown out. Honestly some of the damage looks like a former scale or dirt issue.


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## Ghosthunt64 (Aug 19, 2013)

keithrs said:


> The leaves should sizzle when you cut it to seal it.



They did.



NYEric said:


> It's not in the crown and is therefore exposed to air. Phrags mostly rot fatally from the crown out. Honestly some of the damage looks like a former scale or dirt issue.



I still removed the tissue exhibiting the symptoms just to be safe. I do have a slight mealybug problem, but we're getting that sorted out. Perhaps that was it?


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## NYEric (Aug 19, 2013)

IDK. Take the best care of it you can.


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## Trithor (Aug 20, 2013)

Is it not possibly viral?


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## limuhead (Aug 20, 2013)

Trithor said:


> Is it not possibly viral?



I seriously doubt it's viral; I haven't seen it on YouTube :drool:


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## Paul (Aug 20, 2013)

looks like bacterial spots to me. Here, I cut the parts and put cinnamom on the cuts. It works very well


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## Erythrone (Aug 20, 2013)

NYEric said:


> Those are not a real problem.



I agree. When I see those kind of spots, I do ... nothing unless the patch is enlarging quickly and unless it has a wet look. I sometimes remove a very bad leaf.

This plant has similar symtoms as yours under some leaves... It was a few months ago and it is still growing and it will bloom again soon




[/url]
Phragmipedium Evening Blaze_web par Erythrone2, sur Flickr


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## NYEric (Aug 20, 2013)

:drool:


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## Trithor (Aug 20, 2013)

Wow!


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## Brabantia (Aug 20, 2013)

Waouh! very nice!


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## SlipperFan (Aug 20, 2013)

Gorgeous!


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## Ghosthunt64 (Aug 20, 2013)

NYEric said:


> IDK. Take the best care of it you can.



Working on it, thanks. All input is good input. The plant seems to be stable...



Trithor said:


> Is it not possibly viral?



Definitely not.



limuhead said:


> I seriously doubt it's viral; I haven't seen it on YouTube :drool:



Errrrr...Durr..durr... It's a PUN!



Paul said:


> looks like bacterial spots to me. Here, I cut the parts and put cinnamom on the cuts. It works very well



Did that when I repotted. Well, at least, tried to. The cinnamon wouldn't stick...


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## Ghosthunt64 (Aug 20, 2013)

Erythrone said:


> I agree. When I see those kind of spots, I do ... nothing unless the patch is enlarging quickly and unless it has a wet look. I sometimes remove a very bad leaf.
> 
> This plant has similar symtoms as yours under some leaves... It was a few months ago and it is still growing and it will bloom again soon
> 
> ...



They did have a bit of a wet look. Also, gorgeous plant. Seems to have taken my thread over, but that's not a bad thing. Not in the slightest.


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## keithrs (Aug 22, 2013)

I have had those "spots" also. It was done to leaving the plant out in the cold over night, wet. Mine was not bacterial but more along the lines of cells breaking down. I moved it inside and allowed the plants to dry out and the spots dried up. Bacterial rots will become mushy and brown in color 99% of the time. 

I would watch it next time to see what happens.


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## Ghosthunt64 (Aug 22, 2013)

keithrs said:


> I have had those "spots" also. It was done to leaving the plant out in the cold over night, wet. Mine was not bacterial but more along the lines of cells breaking down. I moved it inside and allowed the plants to dry out and the spots dried up. Bacterial rots will become mushy and brown in color 99% of the time.
> 
> I would watch it next time to see what happens.



The plant had been inside the entire time. However, I do practice the "tray of water" technique, but I would think besseae wouldn't find this a problem...


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## NYEric (Aug 23, 2013)

Personally speaking, besseae and its hybrids can be notorious for problems with rot due to humidity if they aren't getting very high volumes of air flow. I grow in circulating trays of water and have fans and open windows to help reduce problems. Instead of cinnamon if you can get some Captan 50 for cut edges it would help.


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## Erythrone (Aug 23, 2013)

Ghosthunt64 said:


> They did have a bit of a wet look. Also, gorgeous plant. Seems to have taken my thread over, but that's not a bad thing. Not in the slightest.



These are not wet spots. And it was many months ago and the plant is still very strong. And sorry for taken you thread over. I will not do it again.


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## NYEric (Aug 23, 2013)

I think he was talking about his plant.  Threads are like land, they are not really owned by anyone.


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## Trithor (Aug 23, 2013)

NYEric said:


> I think he was talking about his plant.  Threads are like land, they are not really owned by anyone.



That is very revolutionary for a USA citizen? I assume you are?:rollhappy:


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## NYEric (Aug 23, 2013)

First USA citizens were Native Americans.


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## Trithor (Aug 23, 2013)

Correct, ... Bit scared to reply to this one


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## Secundino (Aug 23, 2013)

Native Americans had (have) to fight for their passports in the USA. In the beginning of the USA as such, some thought they were not fully humans at all.

Nothing to be sacred of, Trithor, most of the countries I have lived in have the same sad history. Just am scared if things happen again...

Would be happy owning such a beautiful Phrag, btw! Mine have brown marks on the underside since they were sent to me last november with freezing temperatures. But the plant didn't resent it, it is about to flower in a couple of weeks. Cannot post a pic of the leaves as I have no camera in the moment. But I agree, Phrags are very strong growing plants, just lots of (good) water, ample ventilation and they are happy!


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## Erythrone (Aug 23, 2013)

NYEric said:


> I think he was talking about his plant.



OK!


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## Ghosthunt64 (Aug 23, 2013)

Erythrone said:


> These are not wet spots. And it was many months ago and the plant is still very strong. And sorry for taken you thread over. I will not do it again.



That would seem to be the case; more below. And please! Stay as long as you want, you are my guest.



NYEric said:


> First USA citizens were Native Americans.



I thought that defined the term..? Meanwhile it looks like you were completely correct and I overreacted. This morning, it seems like the 'symptoms' were showing themselves again, but I waited this time and sure enough they were gone by the afternoon. Boy have I learned my lesson! 

So, I probably stressed the crap out of the plant, and, moreover, now it feels like I've wasted all of you people's time... Sorry. Thankfully, the plant still seems to be growing at a decent rate.


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## SlipperFan (Aug 23, 2013)

Not a waste of time -- we all learned something and had some fun, too.


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## Leo Schordje (Aug 25, 2013)

Back to the original question in the Original Post.  (don't want to go down the side trails)

As others said, I wouldn't worry, too much. Your plant is big enough it should recover. However the way the leaves roll at the edges says to me the plant is stressed. Good news is you repotted. 

Often bacterial infections hit old bug bites. So your BIG problem is MEALY BUGS. Kill those bastards off completely. Don't stop until you have sprayed every plant at least twice at the (manufacturer recommended) interval for the product you are spraying. Be sure to keep at it. If your bug spray says every 7 to 10 days, then you need to spray every thing every 7 to 10 days. Don't stop until you have sprayed everything at least once or twice after the last living mealy bug was spotted in your collection. If you don't kill them off completely then they will come back, and the ones that do will be resistant to your bug spray. 

The spots are secondary, the bugs are the primary cause. I will see similar from spider mite damage, look at those too. 

The rolled leaves makes me wonder about your humidity, or enough water, or high temperatures or something is stressing the plant. The leaves in a 'happy besseae' will be fairly flat with little rolling. You might just need more roots, can't tell over the internet. 

I would just put the plant back in the spot it grows best in. It will recover better there. You are treating all the plants in the collection for mealies, often where we isolate plants the growing conditions are less than ideal and actually make problems worse. 

Also look at air movement. Spider mites, bacterial and fungal infections, and other problems are easier to control with good air movement. Good air movement helps with getting better roots. 

Hope this helps.


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## abax (Aug 25, 2013)

Are Phrags. sensitive to Cleary's and/or Orthene 97%? I don't have any
Phrags, but have been considering a couple. I keep both Cleary's and
Orthene in pump sprayers in my gh handy at all times.


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## Trithor (Aug 25, 2013)

Leo Schordje said:


> Back to the original question in the Original Post.  (don't want to go down the side trails)
> 
> As others said, I wouldn't worry, too much. Your plant is big enough it should recover. However the way the leaves roll at the edges says to me the plant is stressed. Good news is you repotted.
> 
> ...



Thank you Leo, sound advice as always. I am always amazed how air circulation is overlooked as factor required for a healthy growing environment. I think we all know about it, and often talk about it, but I wonder how many of us have sub-optimal air movement. I know I certainly do. Threads like this encourage me to go buy a couple more fans on Monday, rather than just 'tweeking' the couple that are working (overtime) at the moment.


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## Erythrone (Aug 25, 2013)

Leo Schordje said:


> Also look at air movement. Spider mites, bacterial and fungal infections, and other problems are easier to control with good air movement. Good air movement helps with getting better roots.
> 
> Hope this helps.



I am with you. I am a big "fan of fans"! :evil:


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## Ghosthunt64 (Aug 25, 2013)

Leo Schordje said:


> Back to the original question in the Original Post.  (don't want to go down the side trails)
> 
> As others said, I wouldn't worry, too much. Your plant is big enough it should recover. However the way the leaves roll at the edges says to me the plant is stressed. Good news is you repotted.
> 
> ...



Definitely will, we'll be getting the Orthene this week and do it at least thrice.


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## NYEric (Aug 25, 2013)

The best way to get rid of mealys is to physically remove them with a paper towel soaked in alcohol. Nothing is more satisfying than watching them suffer as you torture and then crush them in revenge for the damage they have done to your plants.  After that i use a spray solution of water, alcohol, Dr. Browns violet oil, Neem and Merit 75, (always pre/post-spray leaves with water as the oils can stay on the leaves and the plants can dry out in the sun). Repeat after 2 weeks to kill any that come from eggs or survivors.


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## abax (Aug 26, 2013)

Eric, that sounds like a ton of trouble when one drench of Orthene will do
the dirty deed. On the other hand, one has to live with the smell of Orthene for a couple of days. I like to drag out the Big Guns early!


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## NYEric (Aug 26, 2013)

My solution is mostly natural but the Merit 75 packs the Bhopal style punch! I will put my solution against yours any day!


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## Trithor (Aug 26, 2013)

NYEric said:


> My solution is mostly natural but the Merit 75 packs the Bhopal style punch! I will put my solution against yours any day!



I am sure that blanket spraying all your plants might lead to an interesting living environment. Especially those plants on the stove and dining room table!


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## Erythrone (Aug 26, 2013)

NYEric said:


> My solution is mostly natural but the Merit 75 packs the Bhopal style punch! I will put my solution against yours any day!



Mostly natural? With Merit?


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## Justin (Aug 26, 2013)

Leo turned me on to the highly effective cocktail of Decathlon 20 WP and Enstar II AQ.


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## NYEric (Aug 26, 2013)

Trithor said:


> I am sure that blanket spraying all your plants might lead to an interesting living environment. Especially those plants on the stove and dining room table!



We don't blanket spray, we surgically strike, that Merit is dangerous stuff, I hold my breath when I add it to my solution! 



Erythrone said:


> Mostly natural? With Merit?



Water, Alcohol, Violet soap, and Neem are mostly natural.


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## abax (Aug 27, 2013)

Is Merit 75 imadicloprid ( terrible spelling I know)? If so, I'm not impressed. I tried imad. on my roses for aphids and Japanese Beetles and
it didn't work very well at all.


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## NYEric (Aug 27, 2013)

Whew! Good thing I don't have any of those in my living room!


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## likespaphs (Aug 27, 2013)

NYEric said:


> ...that Merit is dangerous stuff, I hold my breath when I add it to my solution!



actually, the Merit (Imidacloprid) is reported to have very low mammalian toxicity and, and i'm just guessing here, but i'll guess you're a mammal just like me so....
:rollhappy:
that is not to say that i would advise you to be reckless while preparing or using any pesticide.
(i think imidacloprid is in the pesticide for dogs called Frontline)


*edit*
well, i just checked and i'm wrong, it's not in Frontline but it is one of the ingredients in K9 Advantix, Advantage, and a few others


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## NYEric (Aug 27, 2013)

OK, but I'm still not using it for a sugar substitute!


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## Erythrone (Aug 27, 2013)

The problem with some pesticides is not the active ingredient alone but the stuff added to the mixture. But I don't know about Merit.


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## likespaphs (Aug 27, 2013)

very true, Erythrone
i forget which pesticide it is, but in {at least} one, it was the carrier and not the actual pesticide that was killing pests


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## Trithor (Aug 27, 2013)

likespaphs said:


> very true, Erythrone
> i forget which pesticide it is, but in {at least} one, it was the carrier and not the actual pesticide that was killing pests



Hopefully that is pests and not pets!


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## abax (Aug 28, 2013)

Thank you, paaaawtucket, for correcting my spelling. Boy, did I ever
chop it up!


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## likespaphs (Aug 28, 2013)

that word just kinda sticks in my head
:crazy:
sometimes the petroleum products that are used as carriers in pesticides can cause phytotoxicity too


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