# Tough Orchid Suggestions



## Ernie (Jan 12, 2011)

Looking for suggestions on orchids we might try naturalizing in the yard. Either in the ground or on trees. Lots of nooks on the palms that bromeliads have been loving. Would need to be pretty rugged. Summers are hot, 90+ F, bright, and humid and winters are dry, breezy, and mild but we get several nights near or slightly below freezing. Have both full sun and bright shady spots and everywhere in between. Would certainly do the typical tricks to protect from extreme cold, but ideal candidates wouldn't mind some light frost once or thrice a winter. Will consider both hybrids and species. The brighter and showier the better. 

Already have some Spathoglottis planted and they've done great through our couple frosts with NO protection! Haven't planted the Phaiocalanthes yet, but will try. Already have a ghost out there too. And did find an Arundina (bamboo orchid) but won't plant in the ground until spring. 

Have some parvis in pots that have gotten pretty chilly and did fine too, but I love them too much to risk full exposure yet. 

Vanda hybrids with lots of coerulea seem to take the chill well too. 

How about your favorite Encyclia/Prosthecheas? cochleata has naturalized in south FL, but how about something a little flashier. 

Epidendrums? 

Dendrobiums? 

The really neat Habenarias? 

Cattleya alliance? Seems terete leaved stuff (B nodosa) might work??? And how about Laelia anceps and its hybrids? 

Thanks!


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## paphioboy (Jan 12, 2011)

I do not have personal experience with orchids that grow in cold climates, but these are the ones I find thriving in Adelaide, despite growing in just shadehouse conditions:
1. Cymbidiums?
2. Dendrobium (Thelychiton) speciosum, kingianum, delicatum and related hybrids
3. Laelia anceps
4. Schomburgkia species - not sure if they take temps down to freezing
5. Not a showy one, but very fragrant, might raise interest when it flowers - neofinetia falcata
6. I suppose many of the aerides and rhynchostylis from more mountainous regions would do well - Rhyn gigantea etc..


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## cnycharles (Jan 13, 2011)

what about neo's? tom grows them on sides of trees in japan, even that other nice phal-looking orchid that you would think wouldn't take cold, he puts on trees (has very nice fragrance, my brain has shut down for the night!  )


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## Kevin (Jan 13, 2011)

Well, just from the time I had down in Miami and the Everglades, I would go with Encyclia tampensis and cochleata, Cyrtopodium punctatum and Schomburgkia (not sure which - maybe any?). You already have Spathoglottis, so that's good. I think the Laelia anceps types might do well, as would the B. nodosa. If you can get a good sized Cyrtopodium punctatum, that would be stunning! Also Oncidium luridum. Saw a massive one in the Everglades. Stunning. That's about all I can say.


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## emydura (Jan 13, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> I do not have personal experience with orchids that grow in cold climates, but these are the ones I find thriving in Adelaide, despite growing in just shadehouse conditions:
> 1. Cymbidiums?
> 2. Dendrobium (Thelychiton) speciosum, kingianum, delicatum and related hybrids
> 3. Laelia anceps
> ...



I agree with 1 and 2. Dendrobium speciosum is one of the toughest plants of all so should thrive in your conditions. It is commonly grown in the garden in Australia.

David


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## John M (Jan 13, 2011)

When my greenhouse froze, the temp went down to -1*C in the middle and colder around the outside walls. I had about a dozen Cattleya intermedias in different locations all around the perimeter of the greenhouse and they were completely untouched by the cold. I also had other stuff that was damaged that did come back. Trouble with them was it took them 1 to 2 years to begin blooming again. That timetable is no good if they get a chill at least once every winter.

Edit: How about Coelogyne cristata? It's supposed to get snow where it grows naturally.


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## paphioboy (Jan 13, 2011)

> ...even that other nice phal-looking orchid that you would think wouldn't take cold,



Charles, do you mean sedirea japonica..? 

Other suggestions: 
- some of the clumping species and hybrid dendrobiums: thyrsiflorum, farmeri, fimbriatum, densiflorum (I think I saw one growing on someone's rooftop here or in flickr!)
This link is simply awesome for landscaping with orchids:
http://flickriver.com/photos/epiphyte78/favorites/

- Brassocattleya Maikai 'Mayumi' - fast and very prolific grower, which is very free flowering... Brassolaelia Yellow Bird is a similar one..


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## Bolero (Jan 13, 2011)

I would try the dendrobiums first, they are pretty tough. If that works out then experiment with others.


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## Shiva (Jan 13, 2011)

Don't forget Den kingianum and Laelia anceps would definitely be happy there. Brassavola nodosa may produce keikis instead of flowers when growing cold. Some sobralias will make good. If you have a pond with constantly running water, you may try some Disas on the edge.


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## JeanLux (Jan 13, 2011)

Some coelogynes like cristata don't mind light frost Imo!!! Jean


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## cliokchi (Jan 13, 2011)

HI Ernie,

some V. coerulea species, v. coerulescens, parviflora, lilacina, pumila,denisoniana
holcoglossum kimbaliana, subulifolium, amesianum
Den. aggregatum major, wardianum,pierardii, anosmum,fimbriatum,pulchellum,chrysotoxum
Ascocentrum ampullaceum, ampullaceum 'red from china', curvifolium, miniatum
severall species from Madagascar
but you need to use the right host tree, not every tree is suitable
I use mango trees, lamyai trees malalucca types but you need a bark with lost of little ribulets for the roots to cling on to
cliokchi


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## Dido (Jan 13, 2011)

The Link is really nice. 
Especially the photo of the Oncidium sphacelatum 

If you like to grow orchids outside in your area try it with the european kinds, like serapias, himantoglossum. Some orchis and orphis should do well too, but some need lower temp in winter. Or bletilla, calanthe should do really nice in your area. 
Snow is just melting here, and I see that most calanthe ( some now for 3 years) I tryed new are survived till now, so tricarniata, discolor, bicolor, smithii, japonica, arcuata and some hybrids grow well for me at -16C. 
I have a Cymbidum gorengii and a kind I dont really know growing outside, the second have this year a bud, will post it, so hopefull will know what it is.


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## Ernie (Jan 13, 2011)

Awesome suggestions all! Keep 'em coming! 

Remember our extreme central Florida summer heat too. Disas would likely keel over above 90 although we do have a small pond. 

Forgot about Bletilla striata. My dad has a huge clump he grew from a couple bulbs I gave him years ago. Will get a chunk from him. 

European orchids (Ophris and friends)- I've never seen them offered here. Will look deeper.


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## Ernie (Jan 13, 2011)

Stanhopeas and Gongoras?


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## NYEric (Jan 13, 2011)

too hot!


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## etex (Jan 13, 2011)

My Stanhopea wardii did fine all summer, with several days of temps over 100,hanging from a hickory tree. Was also one of the last I brought in, when temps in low 40's.
One orchid that really liked the cold spell is Den Dream 'Ace'- it's full of buds now.


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## Brian Monk (Jan 13, 2011)

Ernie - 

I have lived in Orlando. A couple of suggestions and opinions. Don't frget that few (if any) of the plants mentioned so far are freeze-tolerant. Even the Florida natives are not freeze tolerant, they imply exist in niches where freezes don't occur. I have always wanted to naturalize with Paphs. Some strap-leaved species might do well. Any of the Cym. ensifolium hybrids would be worth a try. Den. speciosum is a must-try; a friend of mine has one outside in the Keys, on a tree. It blooms every year.


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## Dido (Jan 13, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Awesome suggestions all! Keep 'em coming!
> 
> Remember our extreme central Florida summer heat too. Disas would likely keel over above 90 although we do have a smal
> 
> European orchids (Ophris and friends)- I've never seen them offered here. Will look deeper.



The heat for sure is not a problem fore the italian and the greace kinds. 
Serapias are really nice and have a summer dormancy. 
No special soil is needed only inorganic with 5% of soil. 
they are wintergreen and survive short cold piriots if is not going to deep. 

if you need some page me. :wink:

Did you tried it with Paph Armeniacum, because I brought my ones late inn 
and they did fine, had -2C fore a few days.


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## Rick (Jan 13, 2011)

Hey Ernie

How much difference in climate is there between Orlando and Homestead.

Robert Fuchs has a ton of stuff out doors down there, and could give you lots of ideas.


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## W. Beetus (Jan 13, 2011)

I don't know how they would fare, but some bright Epidendrums would be quite showy. If I could grow them outside, I would have a lawn of them...


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## SlipperFan (Jan 13, 2011)

How about Neofinetia falcata?


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## Kevin (Jan 13, 2011)

Oncidium sphacelatum? There were some Epidentrum radicans at the Fairchild Tropical Garden, but that might be warmer than where you are.


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## cnycharles (Jan 13, 2011)

tom also grows sedirea japonica outside in japan, I think (took me a while to remember that name)


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jan 13, 2011)

I didn't see anyone mention Epidendrum conopseum (actually, it has a new name now, but its slipped my mind). Its native to the southeast, found as far north as the Carolina's. I've even considered it in NYC....it would be a stretch...but maybe low on the east side of my house......


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## Ernie (Jan 13, 2011)

Rick said:


> Hey Ernie
> 
> How much difference in climate is there between Orlando and Homestead.
> 
> Robert Fuchs has a ton of stuff out doors down there, and could give you lots of ideas.



Hard to believe, but a full 10 degrees F. Our average min is 25-30, theirs is 35-40.


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## paphioboy (Jan 13, 2011)

Paphs insigne, fairrieanum, spicerianum, villosum, all of which clump readily into magnificent specimens.. And don't forget the older hybrids like Leeanum..


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## Kevin (Jan 14, 2011)

I'm sure you've thought of this already, but how about looking around at what people have growing around you? Look at local gardens, botanical gardens, even Disney - I'm sure they have a few orchids naturalized throughout the grounds. Get some ideas and go from there.


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## Brian Monk (Jan 14, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Hard to believe, but a full 10 degrees F. Our average min is 25-30, theirs is 35-40.



That is not the average minimum temp for Homestead. It is the average lowest temp. The average minimum temp in winter is the high side of 50.


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## Ernie (Jan 14, 2011)

Brian Monk said:


> That is not the average minimum temp for Homestead. It is the average lowest temp. The average minimum temp in winter is the high side of 50.



You're right. Typo.


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## Ernie (Jan 14, 2011)

Kevin said:


> I'm sure you've thought of this already, but how about looking around at what people have growing around you? Look at local gardens, botanical gardens, even Disney - I'm sure they have a few orchids naturalized throughout the grounds. Get some ideas and go from there.



Didn't see any at Leu BG. Don't recall any at Sea World. Haven't hit the other parks yet, but will watch. My neighbors don't do much other than palms, avacados, bananas, and such.


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## NYEric (Jan 14, 2011)

Talk to Kerry about it. There was a vendor in your area getting rid of some giant specimens but I can't remember the name.


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## Kevin (Jan 14, 2011)

Never heard of Leu BG - looked it up. Hard to believe that a botanical garden in that type of climate would NOT have orchids as part of the display. What a shame. I was thinking in Disney, perhaps Animal Kingdom and maybe some other places. How much different is your climate from Santa Barbara? Check here for some ideas: http://www.santabarbaraorchidestate.com/ They grow a lot of their plants outside.


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## NYEric (Jan 14, 2011)

I don't believe Santa Barbara gets as hot as Orlando in the hot season!! I was in Polk City October 2 years ago and the heat made Orlando seem like the Artic!!! It was hotter than Chicago in the summer!


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## Kevin (Jan 14, 2011)

Wouldn't the cold in the winter be more of an issue than the summer heat? I think Ernie is more looking at the frost tollerance. Maybe Santa Barbara stays cool longer in the winter, so Cymbidiums do well, but I'm not sure they would do well in Florida.


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## gonewild (Jan 14, 2011)

Santa Barbara is no where near as hot or humid.

Look for Andean species that grow between 1200 and 2000 meters. That altitude has very warm summer temps and also experiences some freezes in winter.

When you grow your plants outdoors just don't expect them to always look perfect like when grown indoors. Wild growing orchids look pretty ragged most of the time because of the unstable environment. Wind, rain, heat,cold, dry, insects, animals all beat the heck out of plants. You should expect the same for garden grown plants. Maybe that is why the flowers are so beautiful?


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## Ernie (Jan 14, 2011)

Kevin said:


> Never heard of Leu BG - looked it up. Hard to believe that a botanical garden in that type of climate would NOT have orchids as part of the display. What a shame. I was thinking in Disney, perhaps Animal Kingdom and maybe some other places. How much different is your climate from Santa Barbara? Check here for some ideas: http://www.santabarbaraorchidestate.com/ They grow a lot of their plants outside.



Big difference between Leu having them and me finding them.  I asked and just got blank stares. Maybe asked the wrong people. 

I did happen upon the SBOE site while looking for a source of L. anceps and they have awesome info and recommendations on cold tolerant plants- many of which we mentioned here. 

Yeah, Santa Barbara and us are roughly in the same USDA zone (theirs varies because of such a huge vertical change in the city and surrounding area), but their summers are mild usually because of the proximity to the cool Pacific. I spent some time in SB and the hotel room had a window and a ceiling fan. No A/C, no heater. No it wasn't the usual dives I'd stay in, it was the Montecito http://www.montecitoinn.com/gallery/default.asp and I recommend it highly! If you can't afford those digs, buy a $80,000 light scattering detector from Wyatt Technology on work's tab- they fly you out to SB for a week of training.


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## Ernie (Jan 14, 2011)

gonewild said:


> When you grow your plants outdoors just don't expect them to always look perfect like when grown indoors. Wild growing orchids look pretty ragged most of the time because of the unstable environment. Wind, rain, heat,cold, dry, insects, animals all beat the heck out of plants. You should expect the same for garden grown plants. Maybe that is why the flowers are so beautiful?



Agreed! Not looking to grow CCMs, just having fun and learning by gardening/landscaping with orchids. Thanks!


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## luvsorchids (Jan 14, 2011)

NYEric said:


> I don't believe Santa Barbara gets as hot as Orlando in the hot season!! I was in Polk City October 2 years ago and the heat made Orlando seem like the Artic!!! It was hotter than Chicago in the summer!



You are correct. SB is not as warm or humid as Orlando, it can get some hot days and some cold days, but they are fairly rare and generally not prolonged. The climate is much more moderate than Orlando. Great for growing Cymbidiums and the Mexican Cattleys (Laelias).

Susan


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## gonewild (Jan 14, 2011)

luvsorchids said:


> You are correct. SB is not as warm or humid as Orlando, it can get some hot days and some cold days, but they are fairly rare and generally not prolonged. The climate is much more moderate than Orlando. Great for growing Cymbidiums and the Mexican Cattleys (Laelias).
> 
> Susan



And when the temps in SB hit 100 the humidity is often 8.


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## Kevin (Jan 14, 2011)

Yes, I know there are differences in the climates between SB and Orlando, but I thought that since we are mainly talking about frost tollerance, that would be a good place to look. I would assume most of the plants that can survive outside year-round in SB would be fine in Orlando, but maybe not. 

I've never been to the Marie Selby Botanical Gardens, but would that be a good place to look? Maybe a bit too warm?


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## Brian Monk (Jan 14, 2011)

There are no outdoor gardens in Florida that I know of (including in South Florida) that utilize orchids in their outdoor landscaping. Again, the native orchids of Florida are either terrestrial and experience a dormancy period; or are epiphytic and exist in very specific microclimates that do not freeze. 

The problem is not one or two nights of frost, but a week or more of temperatures below 40; or 1 or more hard freezes in a season.

As far as I know, very few orchids are capable of surviving these conditions. If they were, then there would already be a considerable number of native species present.


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## cnycharles (Jan 14, 2011)

Brian Monk said:


> As far as I know, very few orchids are capable of surviving these conditions. If they were, then there would already be a considerable number of native species present.



welll, start thinking bogs  there are a good number of plants that grow in the usually continually-moist areas of the south including most of florida


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## Rick (Jan 14, 2011)

There are a couple of guys in our society that grew up in Florida (not sure where quite honestly).

Both of them "naturalized" either some Catt or Vanda hybrids on the trees in their backyards.

One of these gentlemen said he recently visited the house where he grew up and his Vandas where still there and doing fine.

Seems like I've heard a couple of similar tales for south Louisiana.

Next time I see them I'll find out more.


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## Ernie (Jan 14, 2011)

Brian, you're such a killjoy.  Still won't stop us from trying.  

I can totally see how this weather would confuse the crap out of any tropical/tender perrenial. A couple days at 75 with 57 nights followed by a couple days at 55 with 35 nights, repeat.


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## Kevin (Jan 14, 2011)

Brian Monk said:


> There are no outdoor gardens in Florida that I know of (including in South Florida) that utilize orchids in their outdoor landscaping. Again, the native orchids of Florida are either terrestrial and experience a dormancy period; or are epiphytic and exist in very specific microclimates that do not freeze.
> 
> The problem is not one or two nights of frost, but a week or more of temperatures below 40; or 1 or more hard freezes in a season.
> 
> As far as I know, very few orchids are capable of surviving these conditions. If they were, then there would already be a considerable number of native species present.



Really? I know I'm not an expert, but I was in Florida for a short time in April of '07, and the Fairchild Tropical Gardens had Schomburgkias, Cattleyas, Encyclia tampensis, Cytopodium punctatum, some type of Oncidium, Cymbidium aloifolium, Phalaenopsis (only one plant that I saw), Vanilla and Epidendrum radicans. The only terrestrial I saw was Spathoglottis.

Just some suggestions, Ernie. You could also try Epidendrum nocturnum, which is native. I don't know how much frost Miami and area get, but you could try. 

What do you mean by 'very specific microclimates that do not freeze'? Growing on the side of palm tree in full sun with no protection - how is that a microclimate? Encyclia tampensis and Cyrtopodium punctatum seem to like gowing in very exposed areas.


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## Brian Monk (Jan 15, 2011)

By "microclimate" I mean just that: a specific area within an environment that maintains a very specific range of conditions that are significantly different from the average cimactic conditions of the same area. It is a common concept, not my own, and most growers use microclimactic conditions whether they know it or not. It explains why some plants just do better in "that spot." Have you seen the E. tampensis and Cyrt. puncatum in situ here in S. Florida? I have. They grow in protected areas, under heavy tree canopy, and often close to water. Al of these things contribute to the prevention of freezing temperatures that might permanently destroy the plant. There are plants that manage to colonize areas away from these protected spots. And every half-century or so, when temperatures drop to freezing, these plants are destroyed. Those growing in slighly more protected areas are damaged, but survive. Mother nature is a *****. 

I am not trying to be a kill-joy. Really. I think the idea of an effortless garden of orchids that require no care beyond what mother nature offers is a fantastic concept. But the orchids that grow outdoors in Florida without assistance from humans are very limited in either growth habit or microclimate. Even the bog plants in south Florida experience a seasonal dormancy, though this has more to do with moisture than temperature. The plants that are grown outside at Fairchild are either mobile or covered during harsh weather. The cold we are currently experiencing has no been seen in south Florida for over a century. It froze in places that never typically drop below 50. It froze for several days in a row in areas that commonly experience only one or two days of these temps in a year. Last year, we had sub-40 degrees at my grow area for 12 days in a row. In a protected area. 

I am not trying to discourage anyone, but just trying to advise Ernie that his plant choices should be highly discriminating, and that there is probably no perfect solution available. And again, if the single-most highly adapted and diverse group of flowering plants on the planet has not colonized central Florida, and the trees there don't drip with fantastic and colorful flowers of all orchid forms, then there is a reason.


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## Kevin (Jan 15, 2011)

I understand what you are saying, and I know what the deffinition of microclimate is. I have seen E. tampensis and C. punctatum in the wild, in a variety of different habitats. So, these two species seem to be highly variable and not too specific in their requirements. 

Regarding the hardiness of Florida natives, yes, if an area gets extreme cold, like once every hundred years, and the plants die, then they are not trully hardy. I think that the plants listed as native in Florida, and elsewhere in North America, have gone through enough harsh years, and been documented by people, that we can say they are hardy to that area. The plants that are so specialized in that they need very specific conditions are still hardy, but only in their habitat. That is where they grow, and they grow there for a reason. If that area happens to be 'micro', then so be it. Not all species have wide ranges. 

I didn't understand why you said that there are no gardens in Florida that utilize orchids in their landscaping. If it is true that the epiphytes are covered for the winter, then okay, but that can also be done at home, so no reason not to grow them. Are you sure that the gardens cover these species? Looking at the photo I took of the Cymbidioum aloifolium sitting in a crotch of a tree, completely surrounded by branches, I would wonder how that would ever be protected - or maybe the tree is protecting it? If so, it _is_ then possible to grow orchids permanently outside, in the right spot. It would be very interesting to find out how many of the naturalized orchids that I saw there survived this recent freeze. That would add a lot to this discussion. As any gardener knows, you need to place a plant in the right spot and the righ conditions in order for it to thrive. 

As to why central Florida is not dripping with colourful orchids, we have no chance of answering. Epidendrum magnoliae grows all the way up to North Carolina, if I'm not mistaken. Why just one species? Why aren't there 10s or hundreds of species that can handle the same conditions native to that area? That's just the way they were created. We can't answer the 'why'.


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## Kevin (Jan 15, 2011)

Ernie - you said you have a small pond. Have you thought of Calopogon? What about Bletia? Also, if there are some epiphytes that need higher humidity, maybe you could put a large dead branch or stump or something upright in the pond, and put the epiphytes on that? I know you are not specified on natives, but those are usually the best bet for hardiness. Take a look at this site:http://www.flnativeorchids.com/ The Platantheras are stunning, as well as the Sacoila. Then there's Habeneria, Pogonia and Spiranthes. I didn't look where you could buy them, but just some ideas. It would be cool to add some pitcher plants to the pond too, and maybe some Venus Fly Traps. Might be a little warm for them down there, but you can try. Hey, what's gardening without experimentation and trial and error? If someone says 'you can't grow that here', plant more of them and prove them wrong! Also, we have to think about climate change, and maybe some plants that we think won't last long, might infact be very hardy in the years to come.


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## Ernie (Jan 15, 2011)

Wo there. Easy guys. 

Yes, there are microclimates in every yard. Frost has yet to get closer than three feet from my house- it's warmer by the house, that's a microclimate. Bromeliads on the southeast side of a palm are in great shape even through a handful of nights just at/below freezing, those on the exact opposite side (northwest) got lots of cold wind and are cold-fried (not sunburnt), that's two microclimates within a couple feet of each other... 

Anyway, let's take this back to the original brainstorming of plants you'd try if you're crazy like me. I'll pick and choose from the list, will try some things, and will try to post updates. 

I'm sure lots of these will need covered or brought in on cold nights, that's okay too. 

Have some Venus flytraps and they are doing well. Only lost one (might come back?)- the Red Dragon, damn, it's always the coolest ones! 

As far as Brian's diversity question, I think of this all the time down here. We see pix from tropical America of branches covered with loads of orchids, like Pleurothallids etc. Then here in Fl you see a tree loaded up similarly, but with only one or two species of Bromeliad (usually Tillandsias). The true tropics (we're in the subtropics) drive diversity.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jan 15, 2011)

Epidendrum magnoliae is the current name for E. conopseum.


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## Ernie (Jan 15, 2011)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> Epidendrum magnoliae is the current name for E. conopseum.



Who cares, it's ugly. :rollhappy: (and just for saying that, it'll be the only thing that will live)  Kidding, thanks! Sheesh, we're gonna need a big dog. People will be scaling our fence.


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## Kevin (Jan 16, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Wo there. Easy guys.
> 
> Yes, there are microclimates in every yard. Frost has yet to get closer than three feet from my house- it's warmer by the house, that's a microclimate. Bromeliads on the southeast side of a palm are in great shape even through a handful of nights just at/below freezing, those on the exact opposite side (northwest) got lots of cold wind and are cold-fried (not sunburnt), that's two microclimates within a couple feet of each other...
> 
> ...



Did I come across as too abrasive? Sorry. Anyway, I wish you good luck in your endeavour. It would be cool to find out if anyone or any garden has successfully overwintered which species for how many years in your area. I never thought that the opposite side of a Palm tree could have that much difference in conditions to be life-or-death. Very cool. Another suggestion to look is the (former) AOS headquarters gardens. I think they had (or still have, whoever owns it now, if it has been sold already) quite a bit growing outside. If your plants should die in a severe winter, say every 20 or 30 years, that's still 20 or 30 years that you have had them, so I say go for it! That's called zone-pushing, and every gardener has done it (well, most, anyway). Some people here have tried Catalpa without protection, but they freeze to the ground each winter. Still, in a mild winter, they will get to a good size. If we start getting milder winters, who knows, they might just be fully hardy, and then, the people who have had them for years will then have mature trees! Very cool to expertiment like that.

Cool to hear you have VFT's doing well! You should try some Sarracenia, then. Some are native to central and northen Florida. We look forward to your pics!


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## Ernie (Jan 16, 2011)

Was gonna do Sarracenias, but time ran out before our "winter" set in. Eventhough it's mild, it's still a crappy time to plant newbies. Saw fbrems Sar bog and fell in love with it. We'll see...


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jan 16, 2011)

I've been able to keep venus fly traps alive on Long Island (except Red Dragon, of course). They survive the winter well enough...its the summer heat that does them in.


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## Ernie (Jan 16, 2011)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> I've been able to keep venus fly traps alive on Long Island (except Red Dragon, of course). They survive the winter well enough...its the summer heat that does them in.



I was surprised how well they did this summer here. We made these Logan's plants at his request and he had to take care of them. They are all potted individually in NZ sphag and he'd dunk them in the pond each day if they didn't get rained on, and we keep a shallow (maybe 1/2") water pool beneath each (a trimmed down pastic cup for each). They are in full sun. We do have great humidity (plant-wise at least) in summer.


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## Kevin (Jan 16, 2011)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> I've been able to keep venus fly traps alive on Long Island (except Red Dragon, of course). They survive the winter well enough...its the summer heat that does them in.



That seems odd. They are native to North Carolina, and have naturalized (or have been planted) as far south as the Florida panhandle. Seems it would be much hotter there than on Long island, but maybe not. Perhaps yours are not wet enough?


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## Kevin (Jan 16, 2011)

Ernie said:


> I was surprised how well they did this summer here. We made these Logan's plants at his request and he had to take care of them. They are all potted individually in NZ sphag and he'd dunk them in the pond each day if they didn't get rained on, and we keep a shallow (maybe 1/2") water pool beneath each (a trimmed down pastic cup for each). They are in full sun. We do have great humidity (plant-wise at least) in summer.



Try planting them on the edge of the pond. Make an area with pure peat and washed sand, so that there are not nutrients or minerals in the mix. Have it right on the edge of the pond so it stays wet. What is the water quality of the pond? It needs to be pretty pure for them to survive.


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## Lanmark (Jan 16, 2011)

Others have already suggested these, but I'll suggest them again: Encyclia tampensis and Epidendrum radicans. They may suffer some minimal damage from the cold, but established plants should continue to thrive afterward. I really like Epi stamfordianum too, but it may well need protection on really cold nights. Plumerias (obviously these are not orchids) should do well in large planters and brought in for storage in a sheltered area during dormancy in colder months. Junglejacksplumeria.com has an awesome mini (yes a _mini_!) which would do well grown in this manner. I am also partial to Jasminum humile 'Revolutum' but there are other jasmines which are probably more suitable to your area. Eugenia uniflora is another shrub I particularly enjoy. Top Tropicals may have improved varieties available for sale from time to time. There are so many orchids, vines, trees, shrubs, annuals and perennials to choose from when gardening in Florida that it becomes overwhelming! I miss living there...


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## Rick (Jan 16, 2011)

Brian Monk said:


> And again, if the single-most highly adapted and diverse group of flowering plants on the planet has not colonized central Florida, and the trees there don't drip with fantastic and colorful flowers of all orchid forms, then there is a reason.




The pythons and boas knocked the epiphytes out of the trees, which were then promptly eaten by the pacu and hypostomus catfish in the streams.oke:oke:

I've done some work around Plant City, and the local streams are infested with tropical exotics. I was actually pretty surprised about the general lack of trees except in very old neighborhoods. I did think it pretty cool to see the mosses hanging from what trees were around, and all the Caribbean anole species scampering around. 

It's not Equatorial, but I'm sure you'll get something to adapt.

On the other hand what is native for the area? Are there any options to landscape with natives ( or cultivars of natives)?

Some places have been so overrun and developed its hard to tell anymore.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jan 16, 2011)

I keep my Venus Fly Traps along with Sarracenia's in a "bog"...a laundry bin sunk into the ground, filled with sand and sphagnum. Its probably dryness rather than heat that does them in...my older bogs dry out to much now. But they do survive winter well.


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## Ernie (Jan 16, 2011)

Lanmark- love jasmines, planted a sambac (my fave) and it died back except for one sprig which still has green leaves. It'll likely come back strong. There's a huge confederate jasmine bush a couple houses down. I boosted some cuttings, but they were too woody to root. Anyway, I don't find confederates as strongly fragrant as sambac. Carolina yellow jasmine works here too. 

Rick- highly likely scenario!  Native orchidaceae is limited and most are green and white and brown. Enc tampense just doesn't do it for me. 

Eric M- my bog behind the pond is a cement tub with holes drilled about half way up the side. It has some elephant ears and a glorious (once it refoliates) water hibiscus and equisteum (horse tail). Not enough room in there for some short, light-loving carnivores. Will probably start another for VFTs and sarracenias???


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## Lanmark (Jan 17, 2011)

E. tampense is anything but spectacular, but it sure does smell good when it blooms in the spring and you come across a big old live oak tree which is filled with it. :drool:

The Caroline yellow jasmine is lovely but it is toxic to honey bees and wreaks havoc by killing entire hives/colonies when they feed on it.

Jasminum sambac is fantastic! Some cultivars are a lot more vigorous than others.

Try the Asian cousin of confederate jasmine, Trachelospermum asiaticum. I think it's much nicer.

I'm a sucker for night-blooming jessamine, Cestrum nocturnum, but not everyone likes its fragrance.


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## Ernie (Jan 21, 2011)

Angraecoids- who'd've thought...
http://www.aosforum.org/pdf/Angraecoids_Outdoors.pdf


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## Ernie (Jan 21, 2011)

This has been a very fun search effort!!! Thanks all and keep ideas coming! 

I think we're going to make this a priority in our scheme. We'll try to identify plants in our catalog that have known 'extreme temperature tolerance' and any hybrids made with those species. Of course we'll try to offer plants that are still manageable in size and light requirements to satisfy our light gardeners too. It has become apparent the advantages of temp tolerance in managing a collection, and Hillerman pointed out the thriftiness of slight to modest thermostat adjustments almost thirty years ago!


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## Lanmark (Jan 21, 2011)

That Hillerman article is great!
Good luck with it all, Ernie!


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## Ernie (Feb 14, 2011)

Added a Phaius to the collection last weekend. No idea if it's t'villeae or a hybrid or what- tag simply said Nun Orchid. It was among a variety of such things at the garden center. Three gallon pot _full _of plant and four developing spikes about 1.5 inches in diameter! Will probably plant it in a shady spot (or sink the pot in the ground) once it's done flowering. Same with a Phaiocalanthe Kryptonite I got in fall. They had some other Nuns of smaller plant proportion but I didn't see any with spikes, so passed. 

The five Vandas have survived many nights below 40 and at least two nights slightly below freezing so far. 

Got an Arundina graminifolia a month or so ago and it's survived well too. Two or three gallon can full of bamboo-like canes (old name is bambusifolia), so it should establish fast and well once we plant it out. 

Like someone said (Lance?), they have some 'signs of nature' already (sun tanning and mild burning, bird and anole poop (free fertilizer!), and falling citrus dings), but they put up with the weather well thus far. 

Picked up Martin Motes' growing Vandas in Florida book this weekend too. No, we won't become vanda folks, but there are lots of good tips for subtropical orchid gardening in it. Martin was a guest speaker at our JC's spring training seminar. He's a piece of work for sure. Very knowledgeable. 

And met or very own Tim Toomey at the seminar too! 

I plan on doing a parvi planting this spring too and maybe another with villosum, spicerianum, purpuratum, and fairrieanum and another with concolor and bellatulum. As well as a 'bed' of Epidendrums (per SBOE's site, cinnabarinum is _not _cold tolerant). These will be in sunken containers so we can move them in if we need to. Some Den kingianums and Cat intermedias and L. anceps and Sedirea and Neos for the trees and we'll be off to a stellar start!

Keep the suggestions coming...


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## Kevin (Feb 14, 2011)

Sounds awesome Ernie! I think we need pics, though. oke:


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## SlipperFan (Feb 14, 2011)

Sounds pretty cold for Florida, Ernie!


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## NYEric (Feb 15, 2011)

*J*im Toomey! oke:


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## Ernie (Feb 15, 2011)

NYEric said:


> *J*im Toomey! oke:



Err. Or the dude that writes the Sherman's Lagoon cartoon??? Holy crap, Jim, is that you???!!! Yes, I meant Jim Toomey (sorry Jim). Thanks, Eric. My chem teacher in high school used to say, "I never make misnakes." Me either.


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## Ernie (Feb 15, 2011)

Kevin said:


> Sounds awesome Ernie! I think we need pics, though. oke:



Will do once we get some stuff planted out. Or do you want to see big nursery cans of stuff in the driveway and me scratching my head about where to put it all?


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## Kevin (Feb 15, 2011)

That would be a good one too!:rollhappy:


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## Ernie (Apr 6, 2011)

You wanted pictures...

In this one, note the two lush bromeliads in the center. If you look very closely, there is a brown mess directly to the right of them. That's where another one, same species, bought the farm this winter. It's a little less protected. The Nepenthes is carried in and out as weather permits. Last year's pitchers are mostly dried up, but it has lots of new ones coming now that it's getting warmer...




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And a Phaius with four spikes. These things smell fabulous, sometimes blanketing most of the front yard in blissful aroma. Another Nepenthes is hanging above it (note background in flower pic). And no, the Mitsu 3000 GT isn't ours. 





By corydors at 2011-04-06





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A wonderful recommendation from the Canadians- Arundina graminifolia (ex bambusifolia). I got one cheap at Home Depot in early winter. It was rough looking and not in spike, but the price was right. It survived winter fine, but no spikes, so I bought another at a show in Sebring a couple weeks ago in spike with one pink flower open. Of course, days later I noticed the original had a bud and it ended up white. The white clone has shorter, narrower leaves and the flowers only last a day or two. The pink ones last a little longer...




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A quick preview of our small pond. There is an Epidendrum low on the right- the canes are pretty obvious as are the three heads of flowers. Reedstems are quickly becoming a favorite. We have many more to plant out. You can probably make out the horsetail (equisetum) almost dead center. The barrel is the pond filter and some Colocasia Black Magic and Umbrella Palms grow in it. 




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## JeanLux (Apr 7, 2011)

Great, I esp. like the Arundinas!!!! Jean


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## Kevin (Apr 7, 2011)

Very cool, Ernie! Thanks! That one pic didn't come through, though.


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## ohio-guy (Apr 7, 2011)

Maybe you could develop your own....has anyone crossed the cold hardy "ugly"
Epidendrum magnoliea with something like a Laelia anceps to introduce color and retain cold tolerance?
Get one of the E. Magnoliea and when it blooms start putting pollen on it from promising donors!
(Get back to us in 5 yrs or so and update us on the progress!....lol. Sorry I don't have Orchid wiz to see if E mag. has been crossed with anything )


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## paphreek (Apr 7, 2011)

ohio-guy said:


> Maybe you could develop your own....has anyone crossed the cold hardy "ugly"
> Epidendrum magnoliea with something like a Laelia anceps to introduce color and retain cold tolerance?
> Get one of the E. Magnoliea and when it blooms start putting pollen on it from promising donors!
> (Get back to us in 5 yrs or so and update us on the progress!....lol. Sorry I don't have Orchid wiz to see if E mag. has been crossed with anything )



E mag. is registered in 45 crosses. There have been 12 awards given to five of those crosses.


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## Ernie (Apr 7, 2011)

ohio-guy said:


> Maybe you could develop your own....has anyone crossed the cold hardy "ugly"
> Epidendrum magnoliea with something like a Laelia anceps to introduce color and retain cold tolerance?
> Get one of the E. Magnoliea and when it blooms start putting pollen on it from promising donors!
> (Get back to us in 5 yrs or so and update us on the progress!....lol. Sorry I don't have Orchid wiz to see if E mag. has been crossed with anything )



I think anceps onto E mag would be a step backwards in this case. Anceps already is already very cold tolerant and seems to be the gold standard for pretty 'yard orchids' in extreme conditions (heat, cold, drought...). 

Have some anceps and intermedia hybrids we will 'plant out' soon...


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## Ernie (Apr 7, 2011)

Kevin said:


> Very cool, Ernie! Thanks! That one pic didn't come through, though.



Put the missing Phaius pic back in, but the 403 error is still there (ignore it).


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## SlipperFan (Apr 7, 2011)

Cool, Ernie. Thanks for the update.


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## paphioboy (Apr 7, 2011)

Nice... Love the phaius..


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## Kevin (Apr 7, 2011)

Yeah, love the Phaius! Is it planted right in the ground? Did it survive the winter, or is it new?


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## Kevin (Apr 7, 2011)

Love the Nepenthes too! Do you know what kind?


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## Kevin (Apr 7, 2011)

Ernie said:


> I think anceps onto E mag would be a step backwards in this case. Anceps already is already very cold tolerant and seems to be the gold standard for pretty 'yard orchids' in extreme conditions (heat, cold, drought...).
> 
> Have some anceps and intermedia hybrids we will 'plant out' soon...



It would be a step back maybe for L. anceps, but a step forward for E. magnoliea, don't you think? If you want small, clumping orchids with brightly coloured flowers, look for some of the E. magnoliae hybrids. The F1 hybrids with pics on OrchidWiz look pretty nice! Some of them, anyway.

Looking forward to pics of the anceps and intermedia hybrids!!:clap:


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## Ernie (Apr 7, 2011)

Kevin said:


> Yeah, love the Phaius! Is it planted right in the ground? Did it survive the winter, or is it new?



The Phaius is in a 3 gallon nursery can on the front porch at the moment. Got it a couple months ago in spike. Once it's done blooming, will put it in the ground (either directly or will sink the pot) and will try to propagate it from the inflorescences (sort of like dendrobe canes, lying flat on moist sand). I guess you might consider Phaius tender perennials here. Will cover it on nights at/below freezing.


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## Ernie (Apr 7, 2011)

Kevin said:


> Love the Nepenthes too! Do you know what kind?



They both came unlabeled, but I think the bushy, smaller one is either alata or ventricosa and the bigger one might be Miranda??? Will post some pix of the pitchers once some more mature. Have a small starter plant of sanguinea too.


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## Ernie (Apr 7, 2011)

Kevin said:


> It would be a step back maybe for L. anceps, but a step forward for E. magnoliea, don't you think? If you want small, clumping orchids with brightly coloured flowers, look for some of the E. magnoliae hybrids. The F1 hybrids with pics on OrchidWiz look pretty nice! Some of them, anyway.
> 
> Looking forward to pics of the anceps and intermedia hybrids!!:clap:[/QUOTE
> 
> Will check them out...


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## paphioboy (Apr 8, 2011)

The smaller nepenthes looks like x ventrata (alata x ventricosa) from where I'm sitting..  Larger one resembles Miranda from far. Need pitcher pics to confirm ID..


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## Leo Schordje (Apr 8, 2011)

Definitely look at the Calanthe species that are native to Japan and more northerly parts of China. Calanthe arisanensis from China seems like it will survive some frost (left it out one year by accident) I winter it in the cold storage space I use for Satsuki azalea and other sub-tropical bonsai. 

The Japanese species and hybrids might make a great addition, but plant in part shade to avoid the afternoon heat a little. Should naturalize well. 
Calanthe discolor, sieboldii, nipponica, tricarinata and their hybrids might be a good start. C. triplicata grows in karst derived soils, Florida coral limestone might work well. Worth trying but possibly tender would be Calanthe sylvatica (also as masuca). Tom - Kyushu has experience with these, maybe he will weigh in. 

Another worth exploring would be Calanthe calanthiodes (aka mexicana) native to some elevation in Mexico. Should tolerate heat well, and some freezing. 

Cymbidium goeringii, these are found in both Japan, China and Korea, should be hardy almost to Memphis as far as winter is concerned, summer heat might be a problem, plant in shade or some morning sun only. 

That hybrid from Windsong, originally made by Leon G (former Hoosiers O.) Stenosarcos Vanguard, might be a good terrestrial. The Florida native Stennorhyncha species might work, nice red flowers. Also consider growing Platanthera blephiglottis (white) or cilliata (bright orange) all are hardy much farther north. Spiranthes is a group that domesticates well. There are many native Florida terrestrials that are showy whose native range does include Orlando area. Check books and articles by Roger Brown, or Sheviak or even Luer's Native Orchids of Florida. These could really become permaculture, right through the 100 year frosts. 

You are going to run out of room in your yard. :evil:


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Apr 9, 2011)

Calanthe discolor survived a few years in my yard, and my Cymbidium goeringii just survived its 2nd winter, here in NYC, Z7.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Apr 9, 2011)

Hey Ernie,

Well, I had lived in Florida for many years before coming to southern Japan, and both places are suitable for growing orchids outside, even epiphytic ones. My suggestions for epiphytes would include:

Dendrobium, moniliforme, nobile, loddgesii, kingianum, and any of their hybrids. Most of the deciduous caning species should be OK as well if sited well.

Neofinetia falcata and most of its hybrids

Sedirea japonica

Gastrochilus japonicus

Cymbidiums - especially the Jenosa section and honestly any of the large hybrids if grown in slightly elevated beds of pumice and the like.

Leptotes unicolor, bicolor

Pleurothalis sonderana

Neolauchea pulchella

Isabela virginalis

Sophronitis acuensis

Maxillaria varibilis

Coelogyne cristata

Vanda coerulea

Encyclia tampensis and its hybrids

Cyrtopodium punctatum, and any others from the grasslands of Brazil would be worth a shot (if you can find them!)

Harrisella porrecta - these may even be found near you in orange groves. The hard part is finding them - they are tiny.

Epidendrum magnoliae - worth a try, but getting one to establish is another thing. They are surprisingly difficult to get going.

The trick is to find species that can withstand the heat of Florida's summer and not melt in the occasional frost. If you can keep crystalline frost from forming on their leaves, then you can try even more things. The only problem is that below 25-27 F damage will start happening fast with many. Winter deciduous species and terete leaf species hold more promise. Virtually any of the native ones in mainland Japan could have a shot, but most of those are pretty tiny and would be hard to source in the US.

Terrestrials are a pain in the bupkis. Bletilla striata and Spathoglottis plicata are usually no brainers. If you can find Phaius flavus (AKA P. minor), you'll find it to be one of the more cold tolerant species. Of the Calanthe, I would try the deciduous bulb forming ones from SE Asia. Japan's species except those of the southern islands (sylvatica, triplicata) are too temperate for your climate I think. If you can source some, the south Florida native Bletia purpurata may do well in a sandy bed. Bog species that are pretty easy include Calopogon tuberosus and Plantenthera species native to the southeast.

Beyond that, I highly recommend trying some epiphytic ferns, especially Platycerium bifurcatum (very easy and cold hardy even here) as well as P. superbum (stunning, a bit less cold resistant, but still a good bet for you). I'd also get a hold of Asplenium antiquum, the most cold hardy of the large growing birdnest ferns. The hard part will be finding true A. antiquum since most plants on the market are A. australasicum. Another great genus is Pyrrosia with lingua being the most common, though you can no doubt source hastata if you search for it. If you can get hold of the green penny fern, Lemmaphyllum microphyllum, it too is a great little epiphyte. All of the above mentioned plants are cold hardy down to 27 C and even lower if the freeze is not long in duration.

Don't even get me started on tree ferns...


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## s1214215 (Apr 10, 2011)

Hi Ernie

I planted a friends garden in Australia with orchids. A lot of species are hardier than you think. His garden got the rare light frost, but not often. However, temps at night could fall to 0 celcius during the coldest winter months, but days would warm to close to 20c.

THe plants I put in are still thre and growing.

Oncidium spathulatum - full sun
Dendrobium nobile - full sun
Seidenfadenia mitrata - bright light under a palm
Dendrobium thyrsiflorum - bright light under a palm
Laelia anceps - full sun on a palm and tough as an old boot
Stanhopea nigroviolacea on a tree fern.
Dendrobium aphyllum syn. peirardii - bright light under a palm.
Various terete/semi terete vandas.
Spathoglottis
Reed stem Epidendrums (didnt like frosts, but handled inferquent very light ones).
Dendrobium aggregatum, lindleyii, and jenkinsii mounted on rock walls in very bright light to full sun.
Schomburkia brysoniana (?) - bright light under a palm
Various Coelogyne species under shade in a protected area along the house wall.
Phaius tankervillae under shade in a protected area along the house wall

Your idea about the habenaria sounds nice, but I think the SE Asian ones you will have to be careful with as some like carnea dont like the cold. 

Brett


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## s1214215 (Apr 10, 2011)

Hey Tom.. Good to see you chip in on this one.

Brett


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## Kevin (Dec 30, 2011)

Hey Ernie - how's the garden coming?


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