# gigantifolium & it's hybrids



## goldenrose (Jun 29, 2011)

We're seeing new gigantifolium hybrids making the scene. I'd like to use this thread to discuss first the culture of gigantifolium as a species and then of course let's compare the offspring & see pictures!
How many have straight specie gigantifolium plants? What potting media, light, etc or you giving it?
Are they slow to get to blooming size but after that fairly quick growers?


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## jtrmd (Jun 29, 2011)

Have mine in a bark mix,medium light(Phal light),water up to several times a week,and fertilize just about every watering @ 1/4 strength 20-10-20 jacks peat lite.Once a month I water with epsom salts.I probably dont need to,but it became a habit yrs ago.


It has been a slow grower for me,and still has a little while before getting to blooming size.If anyone knows a trick to speed this one up lmk.


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## Rick (Jun 29, 2011)

I have a handful of seedlings of straight gigantifolium that came from both Orchid Inn and Piping Rock. Initially picked up about 3 (maybe 4??) years ago with about 4-6" leaf spans. Until this winter they were in bark or CHC mixes, and grew OK when it was warm, but lost roots and leaves during winter. One of the bigger plants actually added two new growths over the years, but lost the older growths to slow rots. Very little net growth overall. The epsom salt spiking I started a year ago seemed to stabilize them, but putting them in the sphag basket system they have gone to town. The smaller ones (with only a couple leaves and 1 root apiece) have all doubled in size, double the number of leaves, and have enough roots that I can pick them up by the plant and not have them pull out of the basket.

I grow them in the shadier part of the green house next to the sanderianums and supardii. This is also closer to the wet pad, but on the east side of the GH that gets morning sun, and probably runs a bit warmer than the west side.

From checking the data logger, temps have been staying under 85, and humidity stays >70%

Overall they remind me culture wise of kolopakingii, but wanting less light. They can grow at a pretty good rate when warm and happy, but I hope to have the winter regression licked with the basket system.


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## goldenrose (Jun 29, 2011)

Thanks guys - good input.
Rick - checking out Lance's book, it sounds like your basket culture is the way to go! I can also see where winter could present some troubles, as in nature there's a 6-8 degree temp diff between winter & summer! (My house wouldn't be warm enough for it to be happy, let alone my GH!).
You mentioned supardii, which has similar natural conditions but supposedly does better in an intermediate house for optimum growing results rather than warm, a reason I went with one, are you finding it easier than the gig?


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## Rick (Jun 29, 2011)

Here's my gigantifolium the three on the right are from Sam and purchased in Fall 2006 the two on the left are Fall 2008 purchase from Glenn D. 4" and 6" 
baskets for scale. The biggest has a leaf span of 13". The 2 smallest (1 from each source) were virtually rootless 2 leaf plants in January of this year before moving them to baskets.

I'm kind of beating myself over the head for how much abuse I put my multis through for the last 5 years. They could all be much bigger if I knew then what I know now. The supardii have been pretty easy once I got them out of the bright light where the stonei's and roths do so well. I probably lost a year or two keeping my first one way too bright and hot, but they've also been more tolerant of the nutrition issues as long as I get them in very small pots. You may remember some of the old pics of 24" span multi plants in 2" pots. Having that high root mass to mix ratio I think was the only way to cope with heavy watering and high potassium rate. I moved my two adult supardii and a few of the seedlings I've produced over the years into baskets, and they are doing very well.

Anyway it looks like roots are going everywhere now, so I should be able to develop much healthier root mass to foliage ratios.


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## polyantha (Jun 30, 2011)

Here is my P. gigantifolium in flowering size. It is growing very well and the pot was filled with roots in no-time.






Size comparison with Paph. philippinense:





It is growing very well in CHC/ bark mix.
I found out that the gigs are easier the bigger the plant. Young plants are growing slowly. The new growths are developing quite fast:

New growth April 5, 2011:





New growth June 30, 2011:





Keep it humid and avoid direct light. It does not need big amounts of fertilizer.
In nature Paph. gigantifolium is growing close to rivers and ponds. See here: http://www.lacourdesorchidees.fr/Paphiopedilum%20a%20Sulawesii2.htm It does not need very much light (approx. like kolopakingii). If root problems occur, then heat the pot up to 30°C. Bigger plants will recover much faster than seedlings do.


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## Rick (Jun 30, 2011)

Wow, is that a centimeter scale or is that plant pushing 8 ft across?

I think we have some commonalities coming up. Warm and shady.

Also the bigger the plant the faster the growth.

Kind of fits that may be overdosing fertilizer with small plants in proportionately large pots, while big plants in relatively small pots don't get locked up by excess K (especially with bark or CHC mixes).


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## polyantha (Jun 30, 2011)

It is a centimeter scale. That plant has 4 feet leafspan. Hope it will bloom soon.


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## Rick (Jun 30, 2011)

How do you heat the pot to 30C?

Heating mat?


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## Justin (Jun 30, 2011)

Wow they look a little more difficult than i would have thought. Almost as difficult as adductum I'm thinking. I wish I had gotten some seedlings before Sam's stock was confiscated.

Rick I am growing supardii and I find them very easy to grow in my conditions. They are from flask and the biggest are now big NBS plants. I think they are easier than stonei. They do seem a little prone to fungal infection but nothing serious. I am looking forward to seeing them bloom in the next couple years--i've never seen one in real life.


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## Rick (Jun 30, 2011)

Justin said:


> Wow they look a little more difficult than i would have thought. Almost as difficult as adductum I'm thinking. I wish I had gotten some seedlings before Sam's stock was confiscated.
> 
> Rick I am growing supardii and I find them very easy to grow in my conditions. They are from flask and the biggest are now big NBS plants. I think they are easier than stonei. They do seem a little prone to fungal infection but nothing serious. I am looking forward to seeing them bloom in the next couple years--i've never seen one in real life.



Now that I've changed my fertilizer and potting system around the couple of adductums I picked up from Tom Kalina are moving right along.

I agree that supardii are pretty tolerant barring they don't like bright light. The taxonomists generally compare them to rothschildianum, but culture wise they are nothing like roths. My second supardii was a seedling I got from Tom Kalina (after making my mistakes with a big adult plant I got from Jerry Fisher) and it bloomed only about 4 years after purchase. When they are happy they are very fast growing plants.

I don't think that gigantifolium are going to be hard to grow, but they do like it warm, and when they are in growth mode they can suck up the food and water. The hard part is to be disciplined in the winter to not feed and control watering better.

In some ways growing orchids in pots is more like feeding fish in an aquarium. If they are not eating, and you feed anyway, the food just goes to the bottom and rots. The fish end up dying from bad water quality. Oxygen deprivation and metabolite (ammonia) toxicity.

Things get cool and dark in a lot of greenhouses in the winter. A lot of plants slow down to a crawl. Things are much harder to see in a pot than in an aquarium, and its hard to see potting mixes getting "polluted" by excess fertilizer when the plant is really slowing down. At a certain point, excess potassium will cause calcium and magnesium deficiencies putting a stalled winter plant into a tailspin.


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## goldenrose (Jul 1, 2011)

Rick said:


> Wow, is that a centimeter scale or is that plant pushing 8 ft across?
> I think we have some commonalities coming up. Warm and shady.
> Also the bigger the plant the faster the growth.....





polyantha said:


> It is a centimeter scale. That plant has 4 feet leafspan. Hope it will bloom soon.


:rollhappy: I was thinking the same thing & wondering what size are those tiles?
That's one long plant polyantha! When did you get the plant & what size was it? 
I think we can add to our commonalities that they are not popular because of their size & people don't have the space!


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## paphioboy (Jul 1, 2011)

Interesting discussion. I will find this when I get gigantifolium eventually.. :evil: They're still very pricey at the moment.. 

polyantha, where are you located?


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## hardy (Jul 2, 2011)

Sad to say, I had one. It succumbed to rot.... :sob:


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## polyantha (Jul 2, 2011)

@ Rick: I heat it up with heating cables. A mat is also possible. You have to be careful with the temperature. Use wet expanded clay (right word?) under the pot so that you have space between pot and heating element.
@Justin: It is not a difficult plant. Adductum is also quite easy and there are parallels between this two species regarding their preferences: warm and wet. The variety anitum is much more difficult than the P. gigantifolium. But it is possible that there are differences within the species.
@ goldenrose: I got the plant a year ago nbs. The new growth appeared few months after receiving it. After this time, the mature growth has only made one leaf, so i think that it is collecting energy for blooming (the standard in my muti-collection).
It is a big plant, but nothing compared to the huge multi-growth kolos. I'm glad to have one in my collection anyway.
@ paphioboy: I'm from Switzerland.


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## paphioboy (Jul 2, 2011)

polyantha, I saw how you revived a rootless randsii on one of the other forums... Did you do the same for this one too?


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## polyantha (Jul 3, 2011)

Hi paphioboy! This plant was just a little bit dehydratet, but it already showed root tips when i bought it. So i didn't repot for two months and after this time it recovered nicely. Now the pot is filled with roots.
If someone is interested in the technique that paphioboy mentioned: http://www.slipperorchidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=657150
Rescuing a randsii is a damn hard job, trust me. Anitum is even easier.


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## SlipperKing (Jul 6, 2011)

Interesting save Polyantha. So the randsii in now out of the bags and is growing normally now? lots of roots?


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## polyantha (Jul 7, 2011)

You have to know that this randsii is the most difficult plant in my collection, and I have all multis except supardii, ooii and intaniae. (Well, lowii alba, parishii alba and kolopakingii var. katherinae are also missing) And no, there are not lots of roots. There is only one. The thickest root i have ever seen tough. :drool:


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## SlipperKing (Jul 7, 2011)

Hummm... Interesting about the randsii. Keeping my fingers crossed it pulls through. I looked up kolopakingii var. katherinae because I've never heard of that variety. We did have a discussion on the album form of kolopakingii I believe on the forum.


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## Howzat (Jul 7, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> Interesting discussion. I will find this when I get gigantifolium eventually.. :evil: They're still very pricey at the moment..
> 
> polyantha, where are you located?



Hi PaphioBoy
If you live in Penang , buy yourself a gigantifolium from a nursery in KL. I was there 2 years ago and last year and they had huge wild collected one for 40Ringgit (about $13) Same as wild collected sanderianum and rothschildianum.
In flower they only cost 60 ringgit ($20.00)


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## Ernie (Jul 7, 2011)

SlipperKing said:


> I looked up kolopakingii var. katherinae because I've never heard of that variety. We did have a discussion on the album form of kolopakingii I believe on the forum.



Paph. kolopakingii fma. katherinae is the album version of kolopakingii.


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## paphioboy (Jul 8, 2011)

Howzat said:


> Hi PaphioBoy
> If you live in Penang , buy yourself a gigantifolium from a nursery in KL. I was there 2 years ago and last year and they had huge wild collected one for 40Ringgit (about $13) Same as wild collected sanderianum and rothschildianum.
> In flower they only cost 60 ringgit ($20.00)



Seriously..??? Where? Where? Where? :drool: :drool: :drool:


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## Howzat (Jul 10, 2011)

I cannot remember the name of the nursery. But I will find out from my friend in KL who directed me to the nursery. The nursery sell cheap flask of phalies and cattleya at 20 ringgit each, In fact if you buy 30+ they come down in price to 15 ringgit. But don't know the quality. I know a guy here who goes to KL twice a year, buying all these cheap stuff in flask. 6 months later he sells seedlings of phalie and catts for $10 each. Made a killing and still have free holiday.


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## paphioboy (Jul 10, 2011)

Howzat said:


> I cannot remember the name of the nursery. But I will find out from my friend in KL who directed me to the nursery. The nursery sell cheap flask of phalies and cattleya at 20 ringgit each, In fact if you buy 30+ they come down in price to 15 ringgit. But don't know the quality. I know a guy here who goes to KL twice a year, buying all these cheap stuff in flask. 6 months later he sells seedlings of phalie and catts for $10 each. Made a killing and still have free holiday.



LOL.. :rollhappy: :rollhappy: I want a lifestyle like that too..  Hmm, it might be Lum Chin nursery. They do a lot of dend, phal, vanda types... Also have species but the last time I was there, they didn't have any paphs.


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## Roth (Jul 10, 2011)

Cheah Wah Sang orchid farm


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## paphioboy (Jul 10, 2011)

Thanks Xavier..


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## michi (Jul 10, 2011)

would anybody doing a shopping trip for me?????????:drool:


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## Howzat (Jul 11, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> LOL.. :rollhappy: :rollhappy: I want a lifestyle like that too..  Hmm, it might be Lum Chin nursery. They do a lot of dend, phal, vanda types... Also have species but the last time I was there, they didn't have any paphs.



Just got an EMail back from KL. Yes it is Lum Chin Orchid Garden. Jalan Kuchai Lama. Lot 1872. They don't always have paphs. If they don't have at the time of your visit just ask when the next shipment will come. When I was there last (year), they had about 20 gigantifolium sanderianum/rothschildianum. All wild collected. I am not in this market.
There is also a collector in west java who had about 50 gigantifolium, last time I went there October 2010. Asking about $20 each


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## paphioboy (Jul 11, 2011)

Thanks for the info, Howard. Wild paphs are always a big gamble if they haven't been established for a while before offered for sale. I can reestablish and grow wild stonei and lowii with ratty-looking leaves and nearly no roots, but 2 kolos I received from a friend didn't make it..


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## Ozpaph (Jul 14, 2011)

There are some moral issues surrounding the purchase of jungle collected plants.........and ivory and whaling.........


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## emydura (Jul 14, 2011)

Ozpaph said:


> There are some moral issues surrounding the purchase of jungle collected plants.........and ivory and whaling.........



I agree with you. I've always been a bit surprised that buying jungle collected plants is perfectly acceptable on this forum. Never heard a bad word said about it.

It reminds me of an Australian nursery selling multi-growth plants of Paph parishii for a price I was happy to pay. When I asked them where did they come from, they told me they were jungle collected. I said "no thanks". I could have brought that nursery to its knees if I reported them. 

David


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## Roth (Jul 14, 2011)

emydura said:


> I agree with you. I've always been a bit surprised that buying jungle collected plants is perfectly acceptable on this forum. Never heard a bad word said about it.
> 
> It reminds me of an Australian nursery selling multi-growth plants of Paph parishii for a price I was happy to pay. When I asked them where did they come from, they told me they were jungle collected. I said "no thanks". I could have brought that nursery to its knees if I reported them.
> 
> David



Frankly, about the wild collected plants, in quite a lot of instances buying flasks is way more damaging, especially from Taiwan. I have been involved in the trade of paphiopedilum for a very long time to say the least, and flasks sometimes do more harm than good.

I will give one example, intaniae. One nursery imported half a thousand plants of intaniae in bud in Taiwan. They made a lot of seed capsules, killed the plants. The seeds did not germinate for most of them, and they ended up with 17 flasks of intaniae. 

Plants are collected all over Asia for the local trade, not for overseas. Overseas buy very little compared to the local trade. Paph. parishii, most of the established wild plants are sold within Thailand, few are exported. Not buying plants will not stop the trade, you or anyone outside of Asia is absolutely nothing compared to the 'real' customers who buy by few hundreds pots each species locally for the pot plant market or local hobby market ( when such a thing exist, like Thailand or China).

About the flasks, Taiwanese import big batches of fresh wild plants, a month or two before the blooming season. They bloom them, rootless things, and make the seed capsules. Few plants survive after the seeds are ready. For some species, none. That's how they killed hundreds of sanderianum, rothschildianum, anitum, hangianum... 

After, they sell the flasks, but in fact, the quantity of seedlings made of a given species is LOWER than the quantity of wild collected plants fucked to make those seed capsules. The hobbyists feel happy to have artificially propagated plants, but in fact, they were more damaging to the wild than to get wild collected plant...

Some Taiwanese nurseries really grow their motherplants, note well, but the trend is more to use wild plants to make quickly seed capsules. What they don't know and will never learn, a disabled plant or weak plant produces less seeds, of far less quality than a well grown plant. On the time, they are in a hurry to produce as many different species and hybrids as possible, so they do not care about the collateral damages.

See for example that parent plant pictured here:







Guaranteed that the plant did most likely not survive this blooming

Gigantifolium, you rarely see flasks of those, and if you grow well a wild plant, it is saved. Another problem, most of the collected plants end up in the wrong hands and are killed too, but if you are a good grower, the plants will really grow well and for long time. I still have the original wild collected gigantifolium used for the description, about 15 years ago. After some setback, it is now a 6 growth plant.

The last problem, they are so common at present time from the wild, that most nurseries will still stock huge wild plants of gigantifolium. The collector sells them 40000 rupiah per huge 2 growth plants, which is about 2USD. Sometimes it is better to buy those when a nursery has nice plants than to let them die of neglect.


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## Rick (Jul 14, 2011)

Sounds like they are going to kill them from collecting or poor culture no matter what. Same result, all gone.

That's why we have this thread going to try to figure out what good culture techniques work.

Maybe someday, collectors and nurseries in Asia could use these techniques to keep their collected mother plants alive after breeding.


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## goldenrose (Jul 14, 2011)

:sob::sob::sob:
a no win situation ...
you'll be damned if you do, damned if you don't!


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## paphioboy (Jul 14, 2011)

> Sometimes it is better to buy those when a nursery has nice plants than to let them die of neglect.



I agree. I am a believer in 'conservation through cultivation'  If the plant is reasonably healthy and reasonably priced, I will give it a go. Most I see are beyond rescue when offered for sale. And the prices on some are quite outrageous!



> The collector sells them 40000 rupiah per huge 2 growth plants, which is about 2USD.



2USD?? :drool: :drool:


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## Roth (Jul 15, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> I agree. I am a believer in 'conservation through cultivation'  If the plant is reasonably healthy and reasonably priced, I will give it a go. Most I see are beyond rescue when offered for sale. And the prices on some are quite outrageous!
> 
> 2USD?? :drool: :drool:



Yes but you have to buy 500 plants...

Some nurseries in Malaysia have outrageous prices for everything they sell, unfortunately they are as well the ones going to the shows around the world and exporting a lot. They simply buy plants very cheap from the other nurseries or the collector, pack them and sell them with a x10 x20 profit sometimes much more. I always have a big smile with the bulbos especially, I pay them in Malaysia, with export permits, around a dollar or two, but they are sold 8US up to some dozen dollars and more by some nurseries, same source. Bulbo kubahense, I am getting some, and pay them about 3USD. Some nurseries in Malaysia want 80US per plant right now, but they buy them from the same supplier ( and both of us have export CITES for the price).


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## paphioboy (Jul 15, 2011)

I agree, Xavier.. by the way, I find this quite interesting, albeit kinda sad. This is how wild collected gigantifolium plants look like (these pictures are not mine, and neither are the plants. I found this on a Thai website offering these plants for sale).. I think the plants have come straight from Indonesia (or via a Malaysian distributor), because the newspaper in the background is in Malay.. 













I think it might be useful to compare the colour of the leaves between wild ones and cultivated gigs. By the way, Xavier, do you think plants in this kind of state can be rescued with so little/no live roots?


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## Roth (Jul 15, 2011)

You have to take the plant in your hands and see if the roots are broken at their junction with the growths. If yes, it is more difficult. But these look fresh and healthy enough to be grown.

I would expect those plants to survive easily even without roots, but they will loose quite a lot of leaves through dehydratation. 

Properly cultivated gigantifolium have the same leaves in fact...


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