# Paphiopedilum Recovery ?



## werner.freitag (Jun 14, 2020)

A plant I brought from Germany to Thailand more than 10 years ago with label missing.
Could be P. philippinrnse x sukhakullii . Any opinion , thanks ?


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## Tony (Jun 14, 2020)

I wouldn't expect a philippinense primary to have such a richly colored pouch.


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## DrLeslieEe (Jun 14, 2020)

More info is needed to guesstimate... What are the dimensions of flowers and leaves (mottled?).


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## troy (Jun 14, 2020)

I would guess a gigantifolium x


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## werner.freitag (Jun 14, 2020)

p
picture from SLIPPER.INFO


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## werner.freitag (Jun 15, 2020)




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## richgarrison (Jun 15, 2020)

looks to have some cochliopetalum in there ...maybe vanguard x phil. (Doktor Karlheinz Senghas)


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## GuRu (Jun 16, 2020)

richgarrison said:


> looks to have some cochliopetalum in there.....



I think your pointing in the right direction.


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## Guldal (Jun 17, 2020)

GuRu said:


> I think your pointing in the right direction.



Once again, it's difficult to disagree with Rudolf!  If x sukhakulii, I would have expected more speckled leaves (like in Paph. Iantha Stage - roth x sukh).


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## werner.freitag (Jun 17, 2020)

thanks a lot for your input !

I checked an old plastic bag with all the labels removed before my my orchids went to inspection , before sending them to Thailand.
This was about 10 years ago.
3 were of interest:
-P. philippinense x Utgard ( from Hausermann )
-P. philippinense x primulinum
-P. philippinense x sukhakulii


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## troy (Jun 18, 2020)

Phillie primary hybrids all have neutral color pouches


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## richgarrison (Jun 18, 2020)

that Utgard cross is 'Susan Andrews' and the only photo i could find easily looks like a primulinum 

maybe your focus on philippinense as a parent is leading you astray?


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## DrLeslieEe (Jun 19, 2020)

I have been watching this thread since its inception, and have resisted answering until I did my research more fully... and I have been this entire time LOL

The more I research (books, orchid wiz, awards) the more the confusion befuddles my mind. I researched all phillippinense hybrids et al, and looking at their pouch color and leave markings as well. 

Then I realized, keep it simple and think without any direction from comments what it could be (sorry folks, everyone's opinion is valid, but very misleading at times).

So putting logic to it (as I did before in a previous post), here are what we know:

1. plain leaves with no mottling (rules out mottled species like barbatas and hybrids, usually)
2. red pouch (rules out cochlopetalums)
3. staminode with hairs on sides (brings in the coryopedilum like roths)
4. medium long petals (brings back philippinense, rules out other longer petal species)
5. petals swept back (rules out sukhakulii and wardii, again barbata)

By all accounts of these characteristics inheritable from its parents, as paphs are notoriously for taking phenotypic traits from each sire so precisely, I would predict the following 3 species are in it background:

1. philippinense = plain long narrow light green leaves, medium long abducted (raised) petals, staminode
2. supardii = petal wart markings, red pouch ***, overall flower color similarity
3. rothschildianum = the hairy staminode and the 'stance' of the flower which only a roth hybrid can present. 

In all, this is highly unlikely a primary hybrid between two species, but rather a combo of the above (or not) with maybe another. At this point it's all guestimation when a label is lost.


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## Tony (Jun 19, 2020)

The leaves show some faint but distinct tesselation, too much for a combo of just those three species IMO.


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## GuRu (Jun 19, 2020)

DrLeslieEe said:


> ........So putting logic to it (as I did before in a previous post), here are what we know:
> 
> 1. plain leaves with no mottling (rules out mottled species like barbatas and hybrids, usually)
> 2. red pouch (rules out cochlopetalums)
> ...


Leslie, thanks a lot for you complex input and yes, logic is a very important tool/resource but in cases of heredity not always leading in the right direction.

I for myself wouldn't completely rule out all Cochlopetalums. Because of the shape of the pouch of this hybrid makes me think of Paph victoria-mariae which can have a strong red pouch too and there are even hairs on sides of the staminode. A good photo of Paph. victoria-mariae you can find on Jay Pfahl's sites Paphiopedilum victoria-mariae
Just my thoughts......but in the end there must be a real fortune to find out the parentage or name of this hybrid.


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## richgarrison (Jun 19, 2020)

DrLeslieEe said:


> In all, this is highly unlikely a primary hybrid between two species, but rather a combo of the above (or not) with maybe another. At this point it's all guestimation when a label is lost.



I love your long thoughtful threads... They always thought provoking and informative.  and i have to admit sometimes i post just to see your reaction...


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## werner.freitag (Jun 19, 2020)

thanks everybody for the input to this guestimation ( Leslie ) !
just buying 2 new leucochilum from cross

have a good weekend


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## DrLeslieEe (Jun 20, 2020)

That’s so round. Great shape! What does the other one look like?


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## DrLeslieEe (Jun 20, 2020)

Tony said:


> The leaves show some faint but distinct tesselation, too much for a combo of just those three species IMO.


I looked hard at the leaf pics and was deciding that the mottling we see are the veins of the plant vasculature, rather than patterns from mottled leaves. Of course I could be wrong. If I am (maybe Werner can verify), then another mottled species such as argus (some red in its pouch) might be involved?


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## werner.freitag (Jun 20, 2020)

DrLeslieEe said:


> That’s so round. Great shape! What does the other one look like?


Leslie, thats the first one blooming. I bought recently 5 plants from another cross, same grower from Bangkok
. Price about 13 US for blooming size.


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## DrLeslieEe (Jun 20, 2020)

GuRu said:


> Leslie, thanks a lot for you complex input and yes, logic is a very important tool/resource but in cases of heredity not always leading in the right direction.
> 
> I for myself wouldn't completely rule out all Cochlopetalums. Because of the shape of the pouch of this hybrid makes me think of Paph victoria-mariae which can have a strong red pouch too and there are even hairs on sides of the staminode. A good photo of Paph. victoria-mariae you can find on Jay Pfahl's sites Paphiopedilum victoria-mariae
> Just my thoughts......but in the end there must be a real fortune to find out the parentage or name of this hybrid.


Indeed Guru, the VR does have the pouch shape you mention, a sharp ‘v’ like this hybrid in question. The only reason I rule out the Cochlopetalums is that their round staminodes are dominant in their progenies, producing dark blotch in the center (unless bred with brachys or parvis, both of which were ruled out).

It is also possible that the VR red pink pouch could produce a red coloured pouch if combined to roths. But without the dark round staminode of the cochlopetalums, it seems to be less likely the candidate to do this.

What do you think?


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## DrLeslieEe (Jun 20, 2020)

werner.freitag said:


> Leslie, thats the first one blooming. I bought recently 5 plants from another cross, same grower from BangkokView attachment 20797
> . Price about 13 US for blooming size.


I wanna go shopping in Thailand!!


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