# To slipper Vendors who sell overseas..



## Kavanaru (Jun 1, 2012)

I can only say: If you are specialized in slippers and you are good at it, then stay selling them and do not pretend to sell something you have no ******* clue about!

My apologies but I need to let this out!

I import Catasetinae since many years from Asia, USA and different countries from South America! I have received mislabeled plants sometimes, but I have rarely received rotten plants! 

A while ago I placed an order of Catasetinae from a slipper vendor who was coming to Europe from the USA. He had good Catasetinae from Sunset valley Orchids, so I thought the guy knows what he is doing (he has always received great feedback here regarding his slippers!) A group of friends and I put an order together for several hundreds €... result, most plants arrived rotten because they were wrapped on plastic and with the heat of the summer... placed a complain, he apologized that he was not very experienced with this group and bla bla bla bla rubbish bla bla bla... I received a money voucher for a second order... I ordered ONLY slipper the second time..

OK, I am always fpr it, that we should give a second chance.. so... same vendor sent a message he is coming to Europe again.. I placed another order, combining slippers and few Catasetinae.. I gave instructions how to pack the Catasetinae telling him that plastic is not a good idea... Recently, I received confirmation the plants had been shipped, and that he had to cut off the leaves to avoid rot (not optimal, but not so bad!)

Today I receive my plants... AAARRRGGGGHHH!!!! rotten! they were wrapped in newspaper (completely WET!) and then wrapped in plastic! He must be happy to be far far far away from me now! I could punch his face and make him eat all the crap I have received!

I cannot even say that his slipper were good this time! 

I ordered two Paph. sanderianum (two different crosses)... they arrived with fantastic leaves, but rotten roots! WTF!? On top of that, both plants wrapped together, and the labels wrapped apart.. what's the point of ordering two "bred" plants from different crosses, if they are packed in such a way you cannot even tell which label belongs to which plant?


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## John Boy (Jun 1, 2012)

Maybe we should through together your frustration with Sam, and mine with the brazilian growers, stuff the lot of them, and start our own nursery!? I strongly believe that I could do most things quite a lot better, than most of these guys...


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## Kavanaru (Jun 2, 2012)

With over 100 plants from Brazilian vendors in my collection I have never received rotten or sick plants from them! And I am not complaining about prices, nor am I putting all USAmerican vendors in one bad pot because one of the made a mistake or is bad or his/her plants are too expensive for me or because I do not know their mother plants or understand their system!
Just to make it clear, I am complaining about a single vendor from whom I once received rotten plants, I discussed with him what went wrong and giving him a second chance I told him how to avoid the previous mistake, and he made it worst! 
And now, because not everything is bad, I have received a message from him apologizing and admitting he should indeed stop bringing Catasetinae to Europe because he has no clue about them and "they do not ship good together with slippers" (his statement not 100% correct, but I am fine with it)... and he offered to replaced the sanderianum plants if they do not do well within the next 2 months... let's see!


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## Candace (Jun 2, 2012)

Ouch...I feel your frustration.


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## biothanasis (Jun 2, 2012)

Very annoyiing!!! I wish everything goes fine wi the plants!!!


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## John M (Jun 2, 2012)

You have my sympathies too. It's very disappointing when you decide to treat yourself to something like this and the experience ends up being unpleasant. You are paying your money to buy a luxury item to enjoy. When you end up angry and frustrated, you feel like you've wasted your money....and in fact, taken for a fool. That's a terrible feeling. I've had troubles with the same vendor on more than one occasion. I know it's not deliberate....he's just too busy to get everything right. However, sometimes a little mistake has big consequences and that ruins the whole thing for the customer. The last order I received contained some Paph seedlings. They were shipped to me from Montreal. It was October; but, the weather was warm. Even so, a heat pack was put inside with the seedlings.....right up against them! Half of them cooked! I complained and was told he'd send more the next time he came to Canada. I never got any replacements. He forgot that too.


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## emydura (Jun 2, 2012)

I have spoken to a few Paph growers in Australia who will never buy from him again. The main complaint has been that the seedlings in the flask were way too small and all but impossible to grow on. I have to say that was my experience as well. I like a a lot of people here have wasted a lot of money. I have found the Taiwanese flasks were so much better. Much bigger plants that were easier to grow.

To wrap orchids in plastic is just bizarre. Of course they are going to rot. I don't care how busy you are. That is unacceptable.


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## Ozpaph (Jun 2, 2012)

emydura said:


> I have spoken to a few Paph growers in Australia who will never buy from him again. The main complaint has been that the seedlings in the flask were way too small and all but impossible to grow on. I have to say that was my experience as well. I like a a lot of people here have wasted a lot of money. I have found the Taiwanese flasks were so much better. Much bigger plants that were easier to grow.
> 
> To wrap orchids in plastic is just bizarre. Of course they are going to rot. I don't care how busy you are. That is unacceptable.



who are you talking about?
My experience with Orchid Inn flasks, when Sam was here last year, was excellent. Great plants that have grown very well ex-flask.


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## ronan (Jun 2, 2012)

i'm quite happy with my order...just quite happy: my Paph doesn't have big nice growing roots, but only just enough to make them restart to grow...and usually lower leaves are removed...maybe it's due to customs rules...

3 years ago i stopped buying from an other ( the most expensive) american seller because of the strange feeling that europeen people are commited not to get the best...
they replace the plants? of course! just ask! but time is expensive too, frustration even more...


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## Ray (Jun 2, 2012)

I have received tons of plants that had been unpotted, the roots surrounded with moist sphagnum, then wrapped in plastic kitchen wrap (the roots and moss, not the whole plant). They arrive in absolutely great shape.


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## John Boy (Jun 2, 2012)

Same here Ray!, I had some sanderianums with a root-system on the small-ish side, but had no trouble whatsoever, to get them to grow on nicely as well as quickly. And for international shippings and Paphiopedilums Sam does an outstanding job. If I have issues, which does happen on occasion, they're dealt with instantly, as well as generously. Have I ever had arguements, or issues that weren't resolved in my favour? *Never ever.*


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## ronan (Jun 2, 2012)

John Boy said:


> Same here Ray!, I had some sanderianums with a root-system on the small-ish side, but had no trouble whatsoever, to get them to grow on nicely as well as quickly


i'm ok with that.


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## John M (Jun 2, 2012)

A few years previous to my "cooked seedlings" shipment, I ordered a dozen flasks from the same vendor. One flask, lowii x tigrinum, had more dead seedlings inside than live ones. Sam said that he wasn't surprised because he just grabbed the flasks based on what was written on top, not on what the seedlings inside looked like. He didn't even look at the seedlings inside while pulling my order. He did replace the flask with another one that wasn't much better; but, the total number of seedlings probably was about right for one good flask. ....And of course, I had to wait until the next time he came up to Canada. While in the end, I did get what I paid for, it was not a fun experience to get dead seedlings and have to file a claim with him and then to have to wait for another "half dead flask" to arrive sometime. When you buy plants like this, you want to feel like it's Christmas morning while you're unpacking your order.....you want to be pleased right from the start. It seems that what is acceptable to Sam is sometimes below standard. There needs to be less spread between what Sam ships and what people are rightfully expecting to receive. Sam simply needs to step up a bit. Yes, some people expect too much; but, most are reasonable and sometimes, what they get is simply not good enough. I placed another order with Sam a few years after the "cooked seedling" shipment (which by the way, he argued with me about how they were packed. He said that they could not have been packed like I said; but, I KNOW what I unpacked and it was a bundle of seedlings right up against the heat pack without any insulation between them. He was at the Montreal show, doing the show and I presume that he must've had help with packing all the mail orders for Canada that he was sending out from there. My plants were NOT packed properly). Anyway, the last order was for a division of a Mexipedium that I was supposed to pick up in person at the show in Toronto. After the unpleasaant experience with the lowii's and the fact that Sam argued with me about the way that they were packed....and the fact that he never did send me replacements, I did NOT want anything mailed to me from him again. I wanted to pick them up in person at the show that he was attending. However, he screwed up the paperwork and had to leave my plants at the border when he crossed over into Canada. He said he's ship them to me from there when he returned to the USA and (presumably), the correct paperwork would've arrived by then. Again, I was disappointed; so this time, I cancelled the order. I did not want to receive plants that had just spent a long weekend sitting in a customs storage room, at God only knows what temperature. I did NOT want to have to complain to Sam again about more bad plants. From my previous experience (when I did NOT receive any replacements), I concluded that I would have trouble getting satisfaction if something was wrong with this latest order because of the long delay at the border. Each time I had problems, I wasn't offered much of an apology. I felt that I was viewed as a difficult customer and not simply someone who had a right to expect reasonable value for the money.

Sam has nice plants and lots of people get nice plants from him. I would buy from him again, under specific circumstances; but, nobody can just assume that if you deal with Sam, you can't go wrong, because, yes you can! It depends on a variety of circumstances and what kind of mood he's in.

I want to be very clear. I do not think that Sam is a con-artist or that he intends to rip off people. I believe that his intentions are honourable. I just think that he's WAY too busy to pay enough attention to quality control and customer satisfaction.....and that's a mistake. Both of those things are vitally important if you want to enjoy a blemish free reputation. When a vendor is so involved in running their business and watching their bottom line, that they push personalized, quality, customer service and customer satisfaction down to a less important status, there will inevitably be problems and unhappy customers as a result.


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## Kavanaru (Jun 2, 2012)

As I said, slippers in first and second order were good... Cannot complain... But Catasetinae in first and third order, as well as some Paphios in third order were bad! I have complained and he has apologized, but not offered to replace the Catasetinae or give money back... Not good... But also so fed up with the guy I really do not care at all at this point and he can keep the money if he wants... Would he offer me another voucher for a next order? I could print it out and use at the toilette, cause I anot planning to place another from him again...

As for his flasks coming to Europe, I have heard from friends and contacts (4 in total) who also had terrible experience with him and received very bad quality plants, most of them were not even possible to save! Even though, they all mentioned the big plants were fine!


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## eggshells (Jun 2, 2012)

I had the same experience. I'm not the only one as well as my friend put an order for flasks both are crappy flasks. I specifically ask for a 4 growth plant. I did get my multi growth paph plant and paid good money for it however when I unpotted it, There are no roots. So far the plant has 2 small growths because the other growth died and the small one that fall off is currently being nursed by a friend. I have never been so disappointed for an order. Im pretty sure my friend will chime in after he reads this post. As I'm reading Kavanarus post. I knew who is he talking about right away.


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## NYEric (Jun 2, 2012)

Ramon has not mentioned any name. Inthe Paph order from the East that I'm putting together I'm only ordering seedlings. Flasks are too sensitive and open to problems.


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## John M (Jun 3, 2012)

Everyone on Sam's e-mail list knows that it's Sam who is a USA Paph specialist that also sells Sunset valley Orchids' Catasetinae and who also travels the world to sell his plants. Is there really any doubt at all who Ramon is talking about? Really!?


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## fibre (Jun 3, 2012)

I'm happy about Sam, because he is a travelling salesman with Paphs. Without Sam I never would have got the Paph divisions and rare Paph seedlings I got from him. 
I know, his way packing the roots in plastik is a problem and I lost some of his plants because of that. His flasks are of very different quality regarding the status of vitality (sometimes to small, sometimes much to long in flask). But if I managed to establish his seedlings out of flask, all of them grow like weed and it is a big fun to see them grow!


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## Kavanaru (Jun 3, 2012)

Just a comment to clarify the packing of the plants. In my 3 orders with him (yes, no doubt it is Sam, even if I did not want to mention the name openly in my first post!), it was not only the roots but the whole plants wrapped in plastic!


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## fibre (Jun 3, 2012)

Kavanaru said:


> Just a comment to clarify the packing of the plants. In my 3 orders with him (yes, no doubt it is Sam, even if I did not want to mention the name openly in my first post!), it was not only the roots but the whole plants wrapped in plastic!



 terrible


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## John M (Jun 3, 2012)

Kavanaru said:


> .....it was not only the roots but the whole plants wrapped in plastic!



That is a huge problem. Sam has got to know this is bad. I wonder if he's got someone helping him pack who doesn't know and he hasn't taken the time to train them? Whenever I ship plants, I wrap them in newspaper or corrugated cardboard wrapping specifically so that moisture is NOT allowed to condensate on the foliage. Wet foliage in the dark = bad news. I always make sure that plants in a pot are not watered too closely to packing day. Dry plants will recover from the physiological effects, if any. Wet plants that begin to rot, then become diseased plants and that condition is something that must be cured......not easy to do sometimes.

I once recieved some Phrags from Orchids Limited. The roots were packed in a generous amount of fresh, barely moist sphagnum, contained in a plastic bag; but, the foliage was not covered with the plastic. They arrived in perfect condition. In fact, they looked so happy, that because I was very busy at the time, I simply stood the plants up in some empty pots, sphagnum and plastic bag packing undisturbed. As it happened, I didn't get back to them for about 10 days. When I did, the plants had grown tons of new, beautiful roots inside the bag. The slightly moist condition of the moss was perfect for root formation. However, I have NO DOUBT that if the whole plants had been covered with plastic, they'd have been rotten upon unpacking. You just can't wrap the foliage in plastic. When they're in a shipping box, the plants are getting no light at all. Therefore, they don't need to be kept moist. They should always be packed with dry foliage and a slightly dry root ball; or at least, one that is NOT wet....and the foliage must be wrapped in a material that breathes and wicks excess moisture away, like paper or corrugated cardboard wrapping. Catasetinae especially should be packed bone dry and wrapped in paper.


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## Ray (Jun 3, 2012)

I view a little moisture at the roots as a way to provide a little bit of evaporative cooling, and to provide a bit of compensation for the moisture loss in the warm box.

In winter, I take the opposite approach and ship dry.


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## Paphman910 (Jun 3, 2012)

My order from Sam was not what I expected! Lowered expectation than what I had thought! 

I complained because paid my hard earn money to get good flasks. Send photos of my flasks and he said he will send replacements next time he is in Canada. 

He gave me a discount which is good but I do not like to buy bargain flasks because they are setback for at least a year+ and prone to rot and death! 


Paphman910


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## Kavanaru (Jun 3, 2012)

John, the Catasetinae were wrapped in very wet newspaper and then all together wrapped in plastic. Pathos were individually covered with shredded waxed paper, then in newspaper and then all 
Together again in plastic... When I complained the first time he admitted he has no clue about Catasetinae, and for this reason I gave instructions NOT to wrapped in plastic... Second complain, he admitted he actually don't want to sell Catasetinae but does it to help Fred Clarke (yeah, right....) and as for the Paphios, "it was his employee" missing up the labels and apparently he had selected the best sanderianum he had for me (yeah, right...). Furthermore, according to him Catasetinae and Paphios do not travel well together... And therefore the problems... Then I ask myself if he knows that, why he keeps shipping then together? On the other hand, I must admit that the excuse of those plants not traveling well together is so ridiculous as saying that you cannot ship Masdevallias with Cattleyas because the first want it cool and the other intermediate...


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## Kavanaru (Jun 3, 2012)

Ray said:


> I view a little moisture at the roots as a way to provide a little bit of evaporative cooling, and to provide a bit of compensation for the moisture loss in the warm box.
> 
> In winter, I take the opposite approach and ship dry.



Ray, I fully agree with you on this. A bit of moisture, e.g. Barely moist sphagnum... But this guy uses completely wet newspaper!


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## Roth (Jun 3, 2012)

Ray said:


> I view a little moisture at the roots as a way to provide a little bit of evaporative cooling, and to provide a bit of compensation for the moisture loss in the warm box.
> 
> In winter, I take the opposite approach and ship dry.



I send a few cargo shipments a month, and so far, Sam plants travel as a batch by cargo... a little moisture means soaking wet on arrival, the plants have to be borderline dehydrated. Some cargo airlines will have a properly heated facility, many, the plants will go down to 5-7 celsius, up to 35, down to 6 celsius. Don't ask, I put min max thermometer in several shipments... With such temperature swings, the plants will be soaking wet on arrival, even when they are 'just dry'...

Add to that that plants not properly packed tend to 'heat up' themselves through some kind of fermentation, when they are exposed to cold suddenly, they make condensation water...

Usually Sam SENDS good plants, but he has to go through an importer/distributor, that maybe do not open the box immediately. In many cases too, it is impossible to forward a cargo shipment immediately, you have to store the plants in the nursery to check out the rots that always appear ( even in commercial phals or cattleya pot plant shipments) for a week. If the importer just unpacks, put in the box with the bill and byebye, it is a guaranteed disaster.

Orchids Limited used a freak in England to dispatch their shipments, as a result, they lost many customers in Europe, because orchids Limited plants when they arrived to the end customer were nothing short of terrible, three times. But the plants they SEND are excellent...

Many orchid nurseries are hobbyists as well when it comes to send plants overseas. You need to use fungicides to protect them from diseases during transportation.

On the other side, it is absolutely not the customer's concern, the sender/seller needs to know what to do so the plants arrive in good condition, period. I just explain, but that's not an excuse....


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## cnycharles (Jun 3, 2012)

if you take a properly hydrated plant that is quite warm, and wrap it in plastic or newspaper and plastic, it will breathe out quite a bit of moisture and become prone to rot. I have seen plenty of plants from our greenhouses that were put on rolling carts, and get wrapped with shrink wrap and head to the truck; the plastic gets soaking wet from the respirated moisture from the leaves. not saying that the plants were wrapped properly or not....


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## abax (Jun 4, 2012)

I find this thread surprising. I've bought plants from Sam for years and have always gotten very good plants. It seems this doesn't hold true for exports. It's very sad and
disappointing to hear.


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## Mathias (Jun 4, 2012)

I have had the same experience as Kavanaru regarding Catasetiine and Orchid Inn. I had ordered a large quantity and they were affected by rot in the last shipment. He replaced them without fuss and I got the new plants a few days ago. They were in soaking wet newspaper as Kavanaru desribed and with fungal damages on the leaves. However, mine were not in any plastic so damages were not fatal. 

However, I have always found the Paphiopedilums of great quality and packed in a very good way. If I compare how they are packed bare-root with for example Orchid Limited and In-Charm I believe Sams are better. His Cattleyas has also been great.


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