# Alert: Orchid Polize



## NYEric (Feb 7, 2010)

I was discussing things with the propietor of a orchid store and he discussed that another N.E. collector, and member of this site, recently had a delivery of plants from overseas confiscated by the authorities. I guess this person was too open about having plants that are CITESrestricted and the postal service was alerted to make the seizure. My recommendation is to be more discreet, i.e. PM people you trust about your plants, also, use 2nd party buyer, and if you order plants have them sent to your neighbors. It sucks that this whole mess is still going on, especially if the spreading of plants to growers around the world is better than losing them to habitat loss, etc.


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## likespaphs (Feb 7, 2010)

dang it. if only the u.s. would make some rational decisions about cites!


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## Shiva (Feb 7, 2010)

Better to buy a small number of plants at a time. A small package of one or two must have plants attracts much less attention.


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## goldenrose (Feb 7, 2010)

It's a shame in so many ways for the plants. We've had threads/postings as to what the consequences can be, so why take a chance? Play with fire & you're gonna get burned!


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## Bolero (Feb 7, 2010)

NYEric said:


> I was discussing things with the propietor of a orchid store and he discussed that another N.E. collector, and member of this site, recently had a delivery of plants from overseas confiscated by the authorities. I guess this person was too open about having plants that are CITESrestricted and the postal service was alerted to make the seizure. My recommendation is to be more discreet, i.e. PM people you trust about your plants, also, use 2nd party buyer, and if you order plants have them sent to your neighbors. It sucks that this whole mess is still going on, especially if the spreading of plants to growers around the world is better than losing them to habitat loss, etc.



So your recommendation is to lie and do something illegal? Really?

I am not saying CITES is the right approach but I don't recommend being dishonest with authorities either.


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## SlipperKing (Feb 7, 2010)

It's only logical that the "authorities" would be monitoring internet forum sites such as ours. Like Forest said "Stupid is as Stupid does"


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## smartie2000 (Feb 7, 2010)

what a waste of time and money. I have not much else to say....I have had my time and money wasted before (non-orchid related). The American government is wasting your tax dollars on this crap too.


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## Roth (Feb 7, 2010)

It's more complicated than that. 

The asians sellers sends a hell of a lot of boxes every month to the USA, Europe, and wherever. There is a part of the boxes that are seized, but on the seller's side, there are no legal risks really - a tip and that's finished - second, the sellers are making so much profit for each box that goes through, that the 'lost ones' are nothing.

Of course, when one box is seized, the complete network is watched, however in China, there are many networks, maybe 20-30 different ones, using many different sending companies and agents FedEx, DHL, UPS, etc... It's a hit or miss. 

Generally, except there has been a physical informant that went to the Customs of the USFWS, nothing happens. And for sure, even if the authorities watch the forums, they do not care that much. There are many possible pretenders, many small size shipments, etc... 

The thing being that if you ask the sellers in Asia 'everything goes smooth', but based on Kaichen that I happened to know, the rate of seized boxes per year is about 15% on her shipments. She does not care, because she earns far more than enough with the remaining. But the customers are in deep, deep **** afterwards...

Eric, your suggestion is in fact a very bad idea. If a hobbyist gets a box seized, and the box was supposedly for him, he gets a fine, and some problens. If the hobbyist ask a third part, or delivery to the neighbors, etc... it becomes far more criminal, it's like a mafia network, or a 'smuggler network'. Alone, you can loose your plants. 

If you involve third part, first they will speak 99.999999999999999% of the time and give your name to the customs, second it means that you really know you do something illegal. Last, it makes a network.


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## etex (Feb 8, 2010)

Whoa! This is some heavy stuff! I don't understand why the AOS doesn't get involved in changing the laws. Seems like political bull! 
Doesn't seem right that we are under basically British Law when they were the ones ripping millions of orchids from their habitat at the time they were known as the graveyard for orchids!
It would seem it would be better for the propagation of the species if orchid growers were stewards of the plants that have already been plucked from the wild. That way the species will be cared for and places like Troy Meyers Conservatory can help with dispersal to other orchid growers.


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## eOrchids (Feb 8, 2010)

If someone (outside the orchid world) would just understand if you get rid of strict shipping policies, you will be increasing the survival of thousands of species thru trades, tissue culture and etc.


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## NYEric (Feb 8, 2010)

NYEric said:


> My recommendation is to be more discreet,...


:ninja:


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## Paph_LdyMacBeth (Feb 8, 2010)

NYEric said:


> :ninja:



...that and you just wanted an excuse to use the ninja smiley


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## tenman (Feb 8, 2010)

etex said:


> Whoa! This is some heavy stuff! I don't understand why the AOS doesn't get involved in changing the laws. Seems like political bull!



Yes, and it's a major reason many people have left or are disenchanted with the AOS (which has lost over one third of its membership in the last 6-7 years).




eOrchids said:


> If someone (outside the orchid world) would just understand if you get rid of strict shipping policies, you will be increasing the survival of thousands of species thru trades, tissue culture and etc.



But they can't because they're idiots and beaurocrats (same thing, really!).


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## kentuckiense (Feb 8, 2010)

NYEric said:


> I guess this person was too open about having plants that are CITESrestricted and the postal service was alerted to make the seizure.


That is almost certainly not chain of events. I'm betting a package got inspected and then the "illegal contraband" was found and seized. I highly doubt a USFW person monitored this forum, noticed a US citizen posting "illegal" plants, subpoenaed Slippertalk for his/her IP address, subpoeanaed his/her ISP for his/her street address, and then somehow "screened" all of his/her incoming packages.



NYEric said:


> use 2nd party buyer, and if you order plants have them sent to your neighbors.


So that your friends/neighbors could potentially get hit with fines/charges too? If you're going to play with fire, don't include innocent bystanders.

And, I must clarify, I think the USFW interpretation of CITES via the Lacey Act is just as ridiculous and counterproductive as everyone else here thinks.


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## NYEric (Feb 8, 2010)

Don't believe that these things just happen.


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## kentuckiense (Feb 9, 2010)

NYEric said:


> Don't believe that these things just happen.


And they aren't nearly as cloak-and-dagger as you're trying to present them.

A portion (the % of which I'm unaware) of packages entering the USA are inspected/searched as they enter the country. When USFW inspectors find "illegal" plants, they do one of two things:

1. Confiscate the plants and then send you a note or a note in an empty box.
2. If they feel like you're a bigger (commercial?) fish, they'll let the package continue to you, only to bust you moments after you accept the package from your mail delivery person.

The only info on Slippertalk readily available to USFW is that information that you put in your profile. If they actually want to track someone down, they'd have to start by getting your IP information. As a member of the Slippertalk moderating team, I'm quite positive that we have neither been contacted nor subpoenaed regarding such information. If someone from Slippertalk got busted, it's not because they were too "brazen" online. It was because they were taking too many risks with international orders and the numbers game caught up with them. Remember, it only takes one package with undocumented plants.


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## NYEric (Feb 9, 2010)

I never said that STF online activity got anyone in trouble, but if you think that the government doesn't mine information online [using key words, etc] then you're sadly naive.


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## kentuckiense (Feb 9, 2010)

NYEric said:


> I never said that STF online activity got anyone in trouble



Ok, that's fair. This is from your original post:


NYEric said:


> I guess this person was too open about having plants that are CITESrestricted and the postal service was alerted to make the seizure. My recommendation is to be more discreet, i.e. PM people you trust about your plants, also, use 2nd party buyer, and if you order plants have them sent to your neighbors.


I interpreted your statement as suggesting that this person was too open with their online orchid-related activities. Obviously, I should've noted that includes more than Slippertalk.



NYEric said:


> but if you think that the government doesn't mine information online [using key words, etc] then you're sadly naive.



I never suggested anything like that anywhere, Eric, so insinuations of my naivety are unfounded. Of course the government monitors the internet. However, I think their search terms of interest generally aren't of the "hangianum" and "helenae" variety. It's important to keep in mind that when the government makes arrests, they want them to result in convictions. Thus, even if they know exactly who you are, I'm betting they would still go through the IP subpoena process just to have all their ducks in a row for the hearing. As I've mentioned before, I have no knowledge of that IP information being requested of Slippertalk.

However, I don't want my posts to result in a false sense of security. Do USFW people browse the forum? I'd assume they do. And I think that's a good rule to keep in mind when posting here. Assume that a USFW agent is looking at every picture or collection list you post. I think we can all agree that level of discretion is a good idea.


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## kentuckiense (Feb 9, 2010)

I think the main point I'm trying to make is that hobbiests are FAR more likely to get in trouble from ordering "illegal" plants internationally than for posting their photos on the internet, but practicing good discretion is always a good idea.


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## paphjoint (Feb 9, 2010)

ditto



kentuckiense said:


> I think the main point I'm trying to make is that hobbiests are FAR more likely to get in trouble from ordering "illegal" plants internationally than for posting their photos on the internet, but practicing good discretion is always a good idea.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Feb 9, 2010)

You can get ratted out by a third party however. I know of at least a couple busts that went down that way. In general the more noise you make, the more likely you are to find trouble...not that that is surprising!


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## kentuckiense (Feb 9, 2010)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> You can get ratted out by a third party however. I know of at least a couple busts that went down that way. In general the more noise you make, the more likely you are to find trouble...not that that is surprising!



I hadn't thought of that. Good point.


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## etex (Feb 9, 2010)

What of plants you get from reputable US vendors? Are plants from crosses, like Ho Chi Minh and helenae crosses also considered illegal?


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## tenman (Feb 9, 2010)

etex said:


> What of plants you get from reputable US vendors? Are plants from crosses, like Ho Chi Minh and helenae crosses also considered illegal?



They can come for you anytime they want for anything they want now, that is the legacy of the previous administration. As a noted grower knows, who had legally imported plants with all appropriate paperwork, bred with them and sold the offspring, and then, over ten years later, was surprised when they came and seized his plants. They had changed their minds and decided to say the original legal, approved importation was illegal. Surprise! The cites nazis strike again!

So when they change their minds again and decide gratrixianum is illegal, moquettianum is illegal, insigne is illegal, they'll come for the rest of us!!


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## kentuckiense (Feb 9, 2010)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> You can get ratted out by a third party however. I know of at least a couple busts that went down that way. In general the more noise you make, the more likely you are to find trouble...not that that is surprising!



Come to think of it, I bet this accounts for a significant portion of "busts." As with any hobby, there are feuds, jealousy, and some vindictive personalities.


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## Roth (Feb 9, 2010)

tenman said:


> They can come for you anytime they want for anything they want now, that is the legacy of the previous administration. As a noted grower knows, who had legally imported plants with all appropriate paperwork, bred with them and sold the offspring, and then, over ten years later, was surprised when they came and seized his plants. They had changed their minds and decided to say the original legal, approved importation was illegal. Surprise! The cites nazis strike again!
> 
> So when they change their minds again and decide gratrixianum is illegal, moquettianum is illegal, insigne is illegal, they'll come for the rest of us!!



No, the stories are very different. If it is about the gigantifolium, the problem being that the EXPORTER has been fucked, and at that time, he explained that those plants exported with CITES to US were illegal, jungle plants, established in his nursery. 

The importer of all of that, sands + gigantifolium, acknowledged that the import was illegal ( nearly no one know his name in the hobbyists), and his customers - the one we are thinking about-, got problems afterwards based on that.

The importation was approved to be legal because the plants were artificially propagated. When it appeared that those were - very well - laundered plants, the importation became illegal. Like if you import diamonds as zirconium. You get a permit to import zirconium, but if the customs realize 5 years later that you have priceless diamonds, you cannot show them the zirconium permit...

As for people who order from Asia, the plants are so cheap that sometimes hobbyists will order couple hundreds plants. The sources are watched by the wildlife of many countries - like Kaichen or Mulyanto - and parcels are regularly seized, it's to be expected...


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## NYEric (Feb 9, 2010)

My original post was to notify members of this forum that the authorities have started to investigate and prosecute [in various ways] orchid hobbyists. Through a member's own actions, both here and elsewhere, governmental agents seized a shipment of plants. My recommendation was to be more discreet. If you order a plant from overseas on eBay, and it doesn't have the proper paperwork, guess what!? Violation! I'm sorry kentuckiense was possibly offended by my comment but this thing is getting serious.


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## tocarmar (Feb 9, 2010)

I just read this whole post !! & could not beleive it!! But instead of saying "Welcome to New York", I will say "Welcome to the US"!! & as a side note for those that DO ORDER FROM OVERSEAS (E-BAY, or Other) Maybe they can post links to how to go about DOING IT LEGALLY, So This does NOT happen to any more of US.


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## kentuckiense (Feb 9, 2010)

NYEric said:


> My original post was to notify members of this forum that the authorities have started to investigate and prosecute [in various ways] orchid hobbyists. Through a member's own actions, both here and elsewhere, governmental agents seized a shipment of plants. My recommendation was to be more discreet. If you order a plant from overseas on eBay, and it doesn't have the proper paperwork, guess what!? Violation! I'm sorry kentuckiense was possibly offended by my comment but this thing is getting serious.



Eric, I'm not really sure where you are getting the idea that I was offended by your original post. Your original post was somewhat vague. I attempted to discuss the fact that ordering undocumented plants internationally was the best way get caught and that posting a lab propagated yet "illegal" helenae on ST probably isn't much to worry about, but is ill-advised. Indeed, in your most recent post, you mentioned the possibility of getting caught via international eBay purchases. See! We agree on virtually everything. Don't risk it via international purchases of "illegal" plants. Perhaps the main thing we disagree on is the risk posed by discussing your plants on internet forums like this one. However, we both agree that using good discretion is never a bad idea. I think that's the take home message that we're both trying to convey.


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## kentuckiense (Feb 9, 2010)

Does anyone have any info on the inspection rate of packages entering the US from China, Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc.? I've ordered several books from China that came in what appeared to be unopened packages, but it was probably pretty easy for customs to tell it was just a book.


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## Candace (Feb 9, 2010)

> DO ORDER FROM OVERSEAS (E-BAY, or Other) Maybe they can post links to how to go about DOING IT LEGALLY, So This does NOT happen to any more of US.



I've imported from Thailand before. Even with the correct legal documents, CITES, phyto and my import permit it was a complete pain in the rear. I doubt I'll ever do it again. It's up to you to do your research as no one is going to hold your hand through it. There are plenty of sites with all the info. if you do a google search.


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## kentuckiense (Feb 9, 2010)

Candace said:


> I've imported from Thailand before. Even with the correct legal documents, CITES, phyto and my import permit it was a complete pain in the rear. I doubt I'll ever do it again. It's up to you to do your research as no one is going to hold your hand through it. There are plenty of sites with all the info. if you do a google search.



Candace, if you don't mind me asking, did you import CITES app. I (Paphs, Phrags) or app. II (everything else) species?


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## Lanmark (Feb 9, 2010)

Candace said:


> I've imported from Thailand before. Even with the correct legal documents, CITES, phyto and my import permit it was a complete pain in the rear. I doubt I'll ever do it again. It's up to you to do your research as no one is going to hold your hand through it. There are plenty of sites with all the info. if you do a google search.



I've wanted to purchase some Sarcochilus plants (just a few) from Australia that I haven't been able to find in USA. I often wish I knew of a vendor in Australia who knew the paperwork, would be willing to sell a few specific plants to me and at least guide me thru the required paperwork, then ship via an expedited method...if that is even legal or possible! I've not found anyone who wants to do it because of the cost of the CITES and Phytosanitary certs, but if I (the customer) am willing to pay in advance for all these expenses plus pay for uber fast shipping and generously compensate the seller for the time and effort to do all of this, why don't vendors want to do it? It is because I don't wish to purchase thousands of dollars worth of plants all at once? I've pretty much given up on it for now and have spent my money elsewhere, but I can see myself once again wanting to do this in the future...unless the plants in question finally become available in USA.


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## Clark (Feb 10, 2010)

When Geico was allowed to cross borders into NJ to compete and provide auto insurance, cost dropped 50% for us.


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## NYEric (Feb 10, 2010)

True, costs would go down on pplant material but also true bureaucracy perpetuates itself!


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## Roth (Feb 10, 2010)

kentuckiense said:


> Does anyone have any info on the inspection rate of packages entering the US from China, Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc.? I've ordered several books from China that came in what appeared to be unopened packages, but it was probably pretty easy for customs to tell it was just a book.



From what I know, 'documents' or 'books' usually pass through without much check. That's the way the Chinese usually send the plants overseas. They can do that for years without any single problem, but if once there is a seized parcel, usually the ones afterwards get into trouble. The ones before too, because usually too the customs will look back who received 'documents' from the same sender. Tracking at UPS or this kind of companies usually is kept for a couple years.


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## Candace (Feb 10, 2010)

kentuckiense said:


> Candace, if you don't mind me asking, did you import CITES app. I (Paphs, Phrags) or app. II (everything else) species?



I was warned NOT to try to import any paphs so I stuck to hybrids(mainly cattleya). And I still had issues. You never know what inspector you're going to get and how they personally 'read' the rules. I was "lucky" enough to get a new inspector who knew nothing about orchids so I had to have my broker argue with him about flasks. It was a bit nerve racking and it proved to me that commercial importers earn their money.


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## Candace (Feb 10, 2010)

Lanmark said:


> I've wanted to purchase some Sarcochilus plants (just a few) from Australia that I haven't been able to find in USA. I often wish I knew of a vendor in Australia who knew the paperwork, would be willing to sell a few specific plants to me and at least guide me thru the required paperwork, then ship via an expedited method...if that is even legal or possible! I've not found anyone who wants to do it because of the cost of the CITES and Phytosanitary certs, but if I (the customer) am willing to pay in advance for all these expenses plus pay for uber fast shipping and generously compensate the seller for the time and effort to do all of this, why don't vendors want to do it? It is because I don't wish to purchase thousands of dollars worth of plants all at once? I've pretty much given up on it for now and have spent my money elsewhere, but I can see myself once again wanting to do this in the future...unless the plants in question finally become available in USA.



Yes, you've got it...the cost of importing makes it only sensible to do it in bulk, not one or two plants. Plus, if like me you don't live a close distance to a port of entry hiring a broker is an added cost. It's like buying a plant for $6 and the USPS shipping is $7.00....you need to buy enough to make the expense feasible.


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## Lanmark (Feb 10, 2010)

Candace said:


> Yes, you've got it...the cost of importing makes it only sensible to do it in bulk, not one or two plants. Plus, if like me you don't live a close distance to a port of entry hiring a broker is an added cost. It's like buying a plant for $6 and the USPS shipping is $7.00....you need to buy enough to make the expense feasible.



But see, sensible or not, I don't mind paying all those extra expenses _if I want the plant badly enough_. It depends on how much I want the plant. If I want a plant and I simply can't get it anywhere else without importing it, shouldn't it be _my_ choice if I want to spend $500 or $1000 or more to import a plant which might only cost the equivalent of $50 - $200 in its home country? Therein lies my dilemma. I have, in the past, been willing to pay someone very generously for their time and effort, pay all the associated fees, and pay for expedited shipping in order to get a plant I could get nowhere else (and still can't) -- but the seller wouldn't do it. I'd understand if they hadn't ever exported a plant before and had no idea how to go about doing it, but this was a grower who routinely exported plants all over the world. It baffles me!  A plant might be worth only a certain amount of money on the market, but to me it might have far more value because I have very specific interests and tastes. The old saying "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" could be modified to "Value is in the eye of the purchaser" in this case. Perhaps it's not sensible, but life is really boring if we only ever do sensible things! Life is short, and sometimes I just want to spoil myself a little bit before I'm dead and gone. Why shouldn't I be able to do it if I have the means to do it? I'd much rather throw my money wantonly at another orchidist than waste it on gambling or drugs. oke:

*Edit:* To be fair I should make note of the fact that two vendors of Japanese orchids have done this for me in the past. I have been very pleased with my purchases and they were very pleased to make some extra cash in the process. I legally aquired plants which were not available anywhere else, and I have no regrets for doing business in this manner. I hope someday I'll find access to the Aussie plants I wish to cultivate.


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## Candace (Feb 10, 2010)

I think if you contacted a commercial importer in the U.S. with cash in hand it might tempt them more. I suspect they'd be hesitant to do it and then be stuck with a $1,000 plant they can't resell for a profit. So, $ up front would be the way to go. If the cost is worth it to you. Make it clear to them. The vendors who say no are probably just to busy to do it as it does take quite a bit of work. Most overseas nurseries require money transfers which means a trip to the bank. Plus, if a commercial grower here has never dealt with the other grower.... There's just a lot of variables as to why a grower here doesn't want the hassles. Hiring a broker and dealing with the shipping etc. is a pain. Especially for one or two plants. But, keep searching there will be someone who'll do it for you. Especially if the grower is considering doing a bulk order from Australia.


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## Lanmark (Feb 10, 2010)

Thanks Candace.  Yeah, I offered cash up front, promises of no strings attached and all sales final -- just ship me the plant please, LOL, but I can understand why someone overseas would be hesitant to do it. Maybe they thought I was trying to scam them. I think the way to go is indeed through a commercial grower here in USA who imports, then pay them up front to aquire the plant for me. I did approach a grower/seller once here in USA to have them ship one of their plants to Europe as a gift to a friend of mine but they refused to do it. Same situation: "We're not going to bother with this for just one plant." It didn't matter that they already had all their CITES and phytosanitary paperwork and certifications for their plants completed and in order and that they routinely shipped overseas nor that I offered to pay cash in full up front for the $75 plant and all the shipping, handling, and paperwork costs plus a few hundred more for their trouble. They were just plain stubborn and I told them so.  Someone else ended up hand-carrying an identical plant for me on a flight across the Atlantic, CITES and Phytosanitary paperwork in hand. I paid them to do it and everything turned out fine in the end. My friend is delighted with the plant. It's funny, though, how some people get stubborn ideas stuck in their heads and won't budge an inch (like me, HAHA). oke: :rollhappy:


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## gonewild (Feb 12, 2010)

Being lucky to get a package through from China?

Forget CITES violations problems with illegally importing plants. Just discussing about how to avoid being caught is a Federal crime.... Conspiracy can add two years to a sentence.

IP addresses may need a warrant to be found but every post on a forum is public and can be used to prosecute, or to force a plea deal. An investigator could easily learn a posters true identity by hacking the forum. True they may not be able to use the IP id as evidence but once they new where to look to see what was posted all of that material could not be denied by the poster. To do so would be another crime... lie to a Federal Officer?

Just because you get away with receiving small packages in the mail does not mean that the USDA does not know about it. They may watch for years to compile a case, then all of a sudden they arrest everyone.


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## gonewild (Feb 12, 2010)

Lanmark said:


> Thanks Candace.  Yeah, I offered cash up front, promises of no strings attached and all sales final -- just ship me the plant please, LOL, but I can understand why someone overseas would be hesitant to do it. Maybe they thought I was trying to scam them. I think the way to go is indeed through a commercial grower here in USA who imports, then pay them up front to aquire the plant for me. I did approach a grower/seller once here in USA to have them ship one of their plants to Europe as a gift to a friend of mine but they refused to do it.



Even though you may have offered to pay all the expenses for the shipper it still may not have been enough for the amount of effort it takes to get the documentation. Some countries have laws that require all plants to be commercially exported rather than just be mailed. In Peru this would cost at least $1000 by the time all the documentation and handling is done. This amount is for a "shipment", no matter whether it is one box or a sea container full.
Then on the USA side there are more import fees for commercial shipments and USA customs is slow and plants die and you pay for all surprise random inspections. remember USDA and Customs are now run by Homeland Security.

The exporter gets blamed for everything so you see it just is not worth the trouble even if you were willing to pay the expenses.

If you truely are willing to pay all of the costs involved you are a very rare buyer. Next time if you truly want to get the plants offer the seller a months wages in advance as a bonus. Or better yet go and get the plants in person, it would likely be cheaper.


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## NYEric (Feb 12, 2010)

Cheaper, but not cheap.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Feb 12, 2010)

gonewild said:


> Just because you get away with receiving small packages in the mail does not mean that the USDA does not know about it. They may watch for years to compile a case, then all of a sudden they arrest everyone.



That has happened more than once to be sure.


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## Lanmark (Feb 13, 2010)

gonewild said:


> Even though you may have offered to pay all the expenses for the shipper it still may not have been enough for the amount of effort it takes to get the documentation. Some countries have laws that require all plants to be commercially exported rather than just be mailed. In Peru this would cost at least $1000 by the time all the documentation and handling is done. This amount is for a "shipment", no matter whether it is one box or a sea container full.
> Then on the USA side there are more import fees for commercial shipments and USA customs is slow and plants die and you pay for all surprise random inspections. remember USDA and Customs are now run by Homeland Security.
> 
> The exporter gets blamed for everything so you see it just is not worth the trouble even if you were willing to pay the expenses.
> ...



Yep, I'm the rare buyer. If I want something badly enough and I say I'll pay all the expenses, then I pay _all_ the expenses. Period.  It doesn't make me a saint. It's just how I do business. I also don't promise to pay more than I can afford. Give me a figure and I will say yes or no. A month's wages may not be unreasonable if I want the plant badly enough. Going and getting it myself is also a viable option. I've actually been considering making a trip to Australia. Both of my parents are quite ill right now. Looking after them -- even with the help of all the visiting nurses, physical therapists and home health care workers -- while simultaneously managing two homes has been taking up most of my time and energy for the past few months. That is what is holding me back.

I guess I don't understand, however, what you are referring to when you say, "The exporter gets blamed for everything so you see it just is not worth the trouble even if you were willing to pay the expenses." 

The only plants I have ever wanted to import have been rare named varieties of Neofinetia falcata, one species of Sarcochilus and a couple of Sarcochilus hybrids. I want to import plants via legal means only. No funny business. I've had great success in getting the Neofinetias from Japan. Glenn has brought some back for me. Some I've purchased from Jason, and some came from Satomi. I've imported some directly. Some were far more expensive than others. My wish list never seems to get any smaller LOL. There are $50 plants on my wish list and there are $5000 plants on my wish list. There might even be one with a five figure price tag. :rollhappy: It might stay there a while too.  Then again...

Neos are tough almost like little cactuses. They can survive bareroot without water and light for an amazingly long time. Sarcochilus plants, I think, are fairly tough too, although probably not nearly as tough as the Neos. Last but not least, it is not unreasonable to expect that from time to time a plant will perish in the process of exportation/importation. I would take all possible precautions with the Sarcochilus plants, including purchasing a minimum of two plants of each variety on the list, and after that, all I can do is hope for the best. It's a risk I would take. I don't expect miracles and I accept the risk. If the seller told me there was amost no chance the plants would arrive alive, then I would probably not go ahead with the purchase. When the seller doesn't want to do it but doesn't explain why or says it isn't worth the bother is when I start to feel frustrated. Still, it's their choice and I can respect that, but then I'm left wondering what other options I may have.

I'm not requesting anything illegal. I am offering to pay all expenses. I am offering to make it worthwhile for the seller. I accept all risks of loss. So what are the everythings you are talking about for which the exporter would get blamed? I don't get it.  This is the attitude I don't understand. I've faced it more than once, and honestly, I'm not a jerk. Sometimes I just know what I want, and I'm happy to pay for it.


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## NYEric (Feb 13, 2010)

Haha, some people just don't want to go thru the hassle of getting the paperwork.


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## Lanmark (Feb 13, 2010)

NYEric said:


> Haha, some people just don't want to go thru the hassle of getting the paperwork.



 :rollhappy: LOL Maybe so!


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## gonewild (Feb 13, 2010)

Lanmark said:


> I guess I don't understand, however, what you are referring to when you say, "The exporter gets blamed for everything so you see it just is not worth the trouble even if you were willing to pay the expenses."



OK I will try to explain. 

It does not matter whether it is an export shipment or domestic sale for this example.
Ask any plant shipper what happens when someone receives a dead plant.
Almost always the buyer will expect the seller to refund the money, All the money including shipping. Does not matter if the buyer ordered the plant in the dead of winter or that the shipping company mishandled the shipment. The reality is even when only an occasional person complains it is a "cost" to the seller. When a buyer stops payment on a credit card payment it costs the seller a $35 fee on top of the lost goods and shipping. This is only an example of why many sellers will not want to take the time to consider a deal that may not be easy.

Now beyond the money loss the angry buyer posts on the internet that the seller did something wrong or ships bad plants and the seller gets a bad reputation almost immediately. 

Does this make sense as to why the seller gets blamed? And why most sellers make some policies and refuse to change?



> I want to import plants via legal means only. No funny business.



Have you ever considered that this is not a possible way to export some plants? Maybe the export of the plants you want would require some "funny business"?



> It's a risk I would take. I don't expect miracles and I accept the risk. If the seller told me there was amost no chance the plants would arrive alive, then I would probably not go ahead with the purchase. When the seller doesn't want to do it but doesn't explain why or says it isn't worth the bother is when I start to feel frustrated. Still, it's their choice and I can respect that, but then I'm left wondering what other options I may have.



So how does the seller know for sure you will actually accept the risk or blame for shipment failure? How does he know you will not tell all your friends on the internet that it was his fault? Unless you are an established client why should he take the risk for a small sale that probably will be your last purchase from him?



> I'm not requesting anything illegal. I am offering to pay all expenses. I am offering to make it worthwhile for the seller. I accept all risks of loss.



But see you are that rare person who is willing to pay all the costs. Probably if he told you he was going to add $200 to you invoice to cover the cost of his time to write you emails you would pay it. But most people would not. The fact is it takes time from his work day just to tell you "NO". Heck it probably cost me $20 in lost work time just to write this explanation. 
Yes the seller lost making money from your purchase but having his policy of "just say no" he did not loose money corresponding with 50 people who would decide after 10 emails to not order.



> So what are the everythings you are talking about for which the exporter would get blamed? I don't get it.  This is the attitude I don't understand. I've faced it more than once, and honestly, I'm not a jerk.



Are you still confused?
I face your problem all the time trying to get suppliers to do something special for me. I am frustrated but not confused about it.
Try this approach, decide what you would be willing to pay for the plants you want from Australia, the total including all the expenses you are willing to cover. Contact the possible exporters and offer them that amount of money. If they say no contact a orchid vendor here and offer them that much money for the plants. If no one will get you the plants then you are not willing to pay what the plants are worth in reality.



> Sometimes I just know what I want, and I'm happy to pay for it.



I wish I lived in Australia because I would be sending you the plants and I would already have a nice pocket full of money. :clap:


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## Lanmark (Feb 13, 2010)

gonewild said:


> Are you still confused?



I guess the bottom line is that the sellor/vendor/exporter/importer doesn't know me.

The only plants I want are documented, legally propagated, not endangered, not protected, definitely exportable/importable with obtainable CITES and phytosanitary certifications, and I've offered to pay far more than what the plants are worth and cover all costs/expenses and compensate the vendor more than fairly for their time and effort. I figure if I am going to ask a big favor, it's only fair to give one in return.

I'm not confused, just frustrated. 

I grew up in a time when business owners wanted customers' business and went out of their way to get it. I grew up in a time when store owners told their employees that "the customer is always right" but it was also a time when a person said "thank you" with sincerity when someone had done them a favor. It was a time when customers were loyal to the businesses that had given them good service. Times have changed. I haven't.

When I sell on eBay, for example, I contact the customer immediately at auction's end and thank them for their winning bid. Once payment has been received I ship either the same day or the very next day that the shipping service is open for business unless the customer requests otherwise. I keep the customer informed throughout the process. I email them immediately when their package has been shipped and provide them with a tracking nunmber. I track their package and email them when their package is out for delivery, and I contact them once it has been delivered to make sure they are happy with their purchase. Most of the time, however, when I buy on eBay I hear nothing from the seller and have no idea when my purchase might arrive until it actually arrives. I'm feel lucky if an email is answered. oke:


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## gonewild (Feb 13, 2010)

Lanmark said:


> I guess the bottom line is that the sellor/vendor/exporter/importer doesn't know me.



yes



> I'm not confused, just frustrated.



Good, as long as you understand why you are frustrated you are in good shape.


> I grew up in a time when business owners wanted customers' business and went out of their way to get it. I grew up in a time when store owners told their employees that "the customer is always right" but it was also a time when a person said "thank you" with sincerity when someone had done them a favor. It was a time when customers were loyal to the businesses that had given them good service. Times have changed. I haven't.



We must share the same birthday. I still live by those rules also. But times have not changed people have. Time has remained the same as always, a vicious predator.



> When I sell on eBay, for example, I contact the customer immediately at auction's end and thank them for their winning bid. Once payment has been received I ship either the same day or the very next day that the shipping service is open for business unless the customer requests otherwise. I keep the customer informed throughout the process. I email them immediately when their package has been shipped and provide them with a tracking nunmber. I track their package and email them when their package is out for delivery, and I contact them once it has been delivered to make sure they are happy with their purchase.



We do the same with our online business but I must admit when I analyze the cost of the extra service I wonder if the extra service is worth it from a $ perspective. 



> Most of the time, however, when I buy on eBay I hear nothing from the seller and have no idea when my purchase might arrive until it actually arrives. I'm feel lucky if an email is answered. oke:



Yes and those sellers usually have a million positive sales feedback.


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## Lanmark (Feb 14, 2010)

gonewild said:


> Time has remained the same as always, a vicious predator.


 You just gotta learn to run fast. :sob:


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