# Is dolomite soluble



## keithrs (Jan 4, 2013)

I was wondering how to make a liquid Ca/Mg additive that can be used on mounts and plants with no media to retain pellet form and was wondering if dolomite lime would work?


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## Rick (Jan 4, 2013)

If you are refering to peletized agricultural dolomite the answer is yes.

It's pulverized dolomitic limestone held together in little pellets with a polymer binder. As soon as it gets wet if comes apart. pH is around 12 when it does this.

Otherwise, dolomitic limestone is just slightly more soluble than low magnesium limestone (dolomite is just high magnesium, up to 50% Mg carbonate content) limestone.

I would like to access some dolomitic limestone because of the higher Mg content, but for some reason it is hard to get the raw stuff even in TN (the land of limestone).

However every coop, home depot and lowes garden center carries the peletized stuff.

Because of the high pH release of this material I opted for playing mostly with gypsum/epsom salt options that don't change pH.


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## gonewild (Jan 4, 2013)

Rick said:


> If you are refering to peletized agricultural dolomite the answer is yes.
> 
> It's pulverized dolomitic limestone held together in little pellets with a polymer binder. As soon as it gets wet if comes apart. pH is around 12 when it does this.


Is it actually soluable or does it just come apart into fine particles?


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## Rick (Jan 4, 2013)

gonewild said:


> Is it actually soluable or does it just come apart into fine particles?



Not instantly 100% but the powder is very fine, and provides almost an instant pH/soluble hardness boost. (I actually took it into the lab and measured the soluble hardness).

Both myself and Eric M have used the Epsoma product and noted the pH jump. 

Actually there is a lot of soluble Ca and Mg in most regular surface/tap/well waters, so I don't know what the advantage of boosting with dolomite would be relative to just adjusting a tap water with RO or rain water to the desired hardness. Add a dash of epsom salt to the mix to change the Ca/Mg ratio.


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## Stone (Jan 4, 2013)

I have a table of solubility here. Make of it what you will!

Solubility in cold water (about 15C)(g/Litre)

Dolomite: 0.01
Calcium carbonate: (Limestone, calcite) 0.015
Calcium nitrate: 2660
Calcium Chloride: 350 
Calcium hydroxide: 1.85
Calcium sulphate: (gypsum) 2.41
Magnesium carbonate: (magnasite) 0.11
Magnesium sulphate: 710

Thats MAXIMUM solubility so the finer the particles the quicker you'll reach these figures


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## Stone (Jan 4, 2013)

keithrs said:


> I was wondering how to make a liquid Ca/Mg additive that can be used on mounts and plants with no media to retain pellet form and was wondering if dolomite lime would work?



You might be better off using very dilute ''Cal-Mag'' (Calcium chloride-Mag sulphate)
I was hesitant at first (because of the chloride) but I add it to the water from time to time at about 1/2 of a cap to 30lt of water and at that rate it seems ok. Probably brings your pure (rain, RO) water close to most city waters.


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## keithrs (Jan 4, 2013)

Rick said:


> If you are refering to peletized agricultural dolomite the answer is yes.
> 
> It's pulverized dolomitic limestone held together in little pellets with a polymer binder. As soon as it gets wet if comes apart. pH is around 12 when it does this.
> 
> ...



I have dolomite 65 powder... My garden center carries it ... $8 50lbs bag


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## keithrs (Jan 4, 2013)

Rick said:


> Not instantly 100% but the powder is very fine, and provides almost an instant pH/soluble hardness boost. (I actually took it into the lab and measured the soluble hardness).
> 
> Both myself and Eric M have used the Epsoma product and noted the pH jump.
> 
> Actually there is a lot of soluble Ca and Mg in most regular surface/tap/well waters, so I don't know what the advantage of boosting with dolomite would be relative to just adjusting a tap water with RO or rain water to the desired hardness. Add a dash of epsom salt to the mix to change the Ca/Mg ratio.



I was told and have read that Ca in my tap can not be taken up by plants... Needs to be broken down into usable form for plants to absorb it. Is this true? And would dolomite in a solution be up taken by a plant via leaves or root system?


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## Rick (Jan 4, 2013)

What is the hardness of your tap water, and what is the target Ca/Mg concentration you want to reach?


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## Stone (Jan 4, 2013)

keithrs said:


> I was told and have read that Ca in my tap can not be taken up by plants... Needs to be broken down into usable form for plants to absorb it. Is this true? And would dolomite in a solution be up taken by a plant via leaves or root system?



No and Yes


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## Rick (Jan 4, 2013)

Stone said:


> I have a table of solubility here. Make of it what you will!
> 
> Solubility in cold water (about 15C)(g/Litre)
> 
> ...



Multiply by 1000 to get ppm for a start, and increase temp a bit. It doesn't take much in pH reduction to increase solubilty either. Next week I'll see how much a gram of EPSOMA will "disolve" into RO water.

Just using this a gram per liter of raw dolomite (doesn't specify %Mg), will give you a solution of 10mg/L. Not much but how much do you need?

Also given the pH boost from the pelletized product I bet it also contains a significant percentage of calcium hydroxide and magnesium hydroxide.


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## Rick (Jan 4, 2013)

keithrs said:


> I was told and have read that Ca in my tap can not be taken up by plants... Needs to be broken down into usable form for plants to absorb it.



Soluble Ca and Mg in tap water is just as ionic as soluble Ca/Mg from purifed compounds placed in RO water like CaSO4 and CaCl2..... Ca and Mg are elements and can't be "broken down" any further (except maybe in a nuclear reactor).

A true hardness test only tests soluble Ca/Mg if its measured its soluble and not complexed or solid.


Soluble is soluble.


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## keithrs (Jan 4, 2013)

Rick said:


> What is the hardness of your tap water, and what is the target Ca/Mg concentration you want to reach?



My water district is listing it @ 263 ppm or 19gr. 

I want to try an organic k-lite program in the spring... So what ever will work for that. 

I went on GH website and looked at there organic CaMg.... Its catalyzed seashell(flour I'm sure), dolomite lime, and some plant extract(kelp I'm thinking)


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## keithrs (Jan 4, 2013)

Rick said:


> Soluble Ca and Mg in tap water is just as ionic as soluble Ca/Mg from purifed compounds placed in RO water like CaSO4 and CaCl2..... Ca and Mg are elements and can't be "broken down" any further (except maybe in a nuclear reactor).
> 
> A true hardness test only tests soluble Ca/Mg if its measured its soluble and not complexed or solid.
> 
> ...



The explanation I got was that the compound chain was too long for the plant to uptake and needed to be broken down.


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## Rick (Jan 4, 2013)

keithrs said:


> The explanation I got was that the compound chain was too long for the plant to uptake and needed to be broken down.



There is no compound chain of soluble Ca. It is an ion not a complex.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jan 4, 2013)

For liquefied calcium, there are some products sold for reefkeepers that are essentially liquefied aragonite, I think brand names include Aragamilk and Araga-might. However, since these are intended for reefs, I have no idea of what their sodium content may be, or even if there is any sodium.


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## Rick (Jan 4, 2013)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> For liquefied calcium, there are some products sold for reefkeepers that are essentially liquefied aragonite, I think brand names include Aragamilk and Araga-might. However, since these are intended for reefs, I have no idea of what their sodium content may be, or even if there is any sodium.



Aragonite is pure calcium carbonate. In this case derived from ancient biological process rather than purely mineral calcite. There shouldn't be any sodium unless the water content is derived from sea water.

The Caribsea "cichlid sand" I got from Petsmart also is primarily aragonite. After soaking it in fresh water it does produce calcium but also raises the alkalinity considerably.

Not sure why Keithers is getting on calcium kick. Also if you bury the plant in calcium you'll end up with magnesium deficiency. At least dolomite has a good balance of Ca and Mg to start with, but most tap waters across the nation have enough Ca to do the job just fine, and a dab of epsom salts will provide a good balance for Mg.


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## abax (Jan 5, 2013)

Might using K-Lite and Orchiata produce sufficient Ca/Mg for almost any
Paph.?


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## keithrs (Jan 5, 2013)

Rick said:


> Not sure why Keithers is getting on calcium kick. Also if you bury the plant in calcium you'll end up with magnesium deficiency. At least dolomite has a good balance of Ca and Mg to start with, but most tap waters across the nation have enough Ca to do the job just fine, and a dab of epsom salts will provide a good balance for Mg.




I'm going to try a organic k-lite program. So straight dechorinated tap + N + micros will do the job?


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## keithrs (Jan 5, 2013)

abax said:


> Might using K-Lite and Orchiata produce sufficient Ca/Mg for almost any
> Paph.?



Most of my plants are mounted... I want to try something other then k lite... It does a fine job but I find organics to be more the way I want to go if I can.


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## keithrs (Jan 5, 2013)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> For liquefied calcium, there are some products sold for reefkeepers that are essentially liquefied aragonite, I think brand names include Aragamilk and Araga-might. However, since these are intended for reefs, I have no idea of what their sodium content may be, or even if there is any sodium.



I'm looking to be cheap!


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## Rick (Jan 5, 2013)

keithrs said:


> I'm going to try a organic k-lite program. So straight dechorinated tap + N + micros will do the job?



I posted a link to analysis of several different commercial organic products. The liquid kelp extract in dilute tap water would cover your description in spades.

Call your local health department to get a copy of the tap water analysis. It may be online.

It should have all the major ion and metals data you want.


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## gonewild (Jan 5, 2013)

keithrs said:


> I'm looking to be cheap!



Then just throw on a handful of dolomite powder once in a while. Some of the powder will lodge around the roots or in the media and stay awhile for the plants to use it. That's cheap and seeing the powder on there you can at least feel like you are having results.

But remember things are cheap for a reason. Usually it is because they don't work as well as something else.


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## Stone (Jan 5, 2013)

abax said:


> Might using K-Lite and Orchiata produce sufficient Ca/Mg for almost any
> Paph.?



Definately. But all paphs need the same amount of Ca/Mg.


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## Rick (Jan 5, 2013)

Stone said:


> I have a table of solubility here. Make of it what you will!
> 
> Solubility in cold water (about 15C)(g/Litre)
> 
> ...


Ok so started the experiment with 0.5g Epsoma pellets in 100ml RO water. That's 5 gr/L.
Since I'm not at work all I have is conductivity available right now, which is about 300 us/cm, which is roughly equivalent to about 150mg/L TDS. So something is there at > than 10mg/L.

Interesting thing in the above table is that dolomite is a mix of calcium and magnesium carbonates, which individually have higher solubility values than dolomite. You would think it would be some average of the two??


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## gonewild (Jan 5, 2013)

Stone said:


> Definately. But all paphs need the same amount of Ca/Mg.



All Paphs need the same amount of Ca/Mg?


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## Ray (Jan 5, 2013)

keithrs said:


> I'm looking to be cheap!



Then you picked the WRONG hobby, dude!


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## Rick (Jan 5, 2013)

Ray said:


> Then you picked the WRONG hobby, dude!



Or the wrong country to practice itoke:

I'm sure most of the real cost is environmental control (heat/light/humidity). The feeding part is cheap.

If we lived in the country of origin that our babies come from then I bet it's pretty cheap for the locals.

At least Keith is in San Diego. Almost never gets to freezing, and normally sunny. A bit dry. You can probably do parvis outside year round!


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## keithrs (Jan 5, 2013)

Ray said:


> Then you picked the WRONG hobby, dude!



Orchids are not my only hobby! I build cars and do woodworking also! I have to spread the love.


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## SlipperFan (Jan 5, 2013)

keithrs said:


> Orchids are not my only hobby! I build cars and do woodworking also! I have to spread the love.



None of those are cheap, either!!! oke:


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## Stone (Jan 6, 2013)

Rick said:


> Ok so started the experiment with 0.5g Epsoma pellets in 100ml RO water. That's 5 gr/L.
> Since I'm not at work all I have is conductivity available right now, which is about 300 us/cm, which is roughly equivalent to about 150mg/L TDS. So something is there at > than 10mg/L.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Stone (Jan 6, 2013)

gonewild said:


> All Paphs need the same amount of Ca/Mg?



I think when its all said and done most paphs if not most orchids if not most of the vegetable kingdom needs roughly the same amount of Calcium as well as all other nutrients. Certainly they can all find enough Ca in the ferts and mixes and water etc which we give them to satisfy their needs.
There may be very slight variations but I haven't seen any data to show it. Only speculation. I'm sure the leaf samples taken from a wild kovachii, a wild niveum and a wild venustum or lowii in a tree would be the same. (more or less) I have had orchids which for some reason or other have not been fed for years and yet they still find enough Ca. to keep growing.
Its all in the balance I think. Hi level of ALL nutrients or low level of ALL nutrients (all in the correct balance of course) and the plants are happy.


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## Rick (Jan 6, 2013)

Stone said:


> I guess it depends on the samples taken. Dolomite can vary quite a lot as far as Mg. content and so can Limestone--from very low to maybe 10%?? and Dolomite from 15 to 50% or something.
> I have another list of the relative terms given to different lime rocks and at what Mg percentage limestone becomes dolomite.
> I will try to find it.



Yup, The Epsoma Ca/Mg percentages are on the bag. It's not a 50/50 mix (by memory) but its too cold and too late to walk out to the GH to check.


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## Rick (Jan 6, 2013)

Stone said:


> There may be very slight variations but I haven't seen any data to show it. I'm sure the leaf samples taken from a wild kovachii, a wild niveum and a wild venustum or lowii in a tree would be the same. (more or less) I have had orchids which for some reason or other have not been fed for years and yet they still find enough Ca. to keep growing.



Actually you supplied some pretty nice data one time Mike. It was a paper on Panamanian leaf tissue data. Had orchids and non orchids. Most plants really were about the same except those tended by ants (those had high amounts of K in tissue). 

There tends to be a lot more Ca floating through the environment than most other minerals. 

In general living organisms (including plants) tend to reflect the relative commonality of elements in the environment both in what they need and what causes toxicity. "Too much and too little" pretty much tracks how much of it is in the environment. There are exceptions, especially in consideration of domesticated plants and animals with environments and purposes created by humanity (or ants!). Often the outliers are able to live in systems out of balance.


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## NYEric (Jan 7, 2013)

Rick said:


> Yup, The Epsoma Ca/Mg percentages are on the bag. It's not a 50/50 mix (by memory) but its too cold and too late to walk out to the GH to check.


What about the bag in the bathrooom! oke: 

BTW, in answer to the original post, everything is soluable in a large enough solution.


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## Rick (Jan 7, 2013)

Ok

Took my 5g/L solution of Epsoma Garden Lime into the lab.

conductivity = 270 us/cm
pH = 9.72
Alkalinity 440 mg/L as CaCO3
Hardness = 123 mg/L as CaCO3

The bag says its 21% Ca and 10% Mg

So with that hardness you can back calculate to 27 mg/L of Ca and 13mg/L of Mg.

For comparison Nashville tap water has a hardness of 100 and alkalinity of 50 conductivity around 200. Ca of 25 and Mg of 9 mg/L.

So if you are going cheap, I'd just use dechlorinated tap water.


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## keithrs (Jan 7, 2013)

That's interesting.... 

Did it all dissolve?

Here is my water quality report....

June water quality


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## Rick (Jan 8, 2013)

keithrs said:


> That's interesting....
> 
> Did it all dissolve?
> 
> ...



No there's still fine solids.

Looks like a 50% dilution of your tap water with RO or rain water will produce something very similar to what you get with the Epsoma pellets (except reduced alkalinity).

Also a 50% dilution would put this on par with Nashville tap water.


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## keithrs (Jan 8, 2013)

Rick said:


> No there's still fine solids.
> 
> Looks like a 50% dilution of your tap water with RO or rain water will produce something very similar to what you get with the Epsoma pellets (except reduced alkalinity).
> 
> Also a 50% dilution would put this on par with Nashville tap water.



That's what I was thinking too! I had added back 10% tap and my plants didn't show any response. Probably because I fertilize @ every watering and they got all they needed from it.

It seems to me that instead of adding cal/mag supplements, those that have semi hard to hard tap water would be better off using well water instead.... But I guess at would only work if you grow plant that where not sensitive to high TDS water.


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## Rick (Jan 8, 2013)

keithrs said:


> That's what I was thinking too! I had added back 10% tap and my plants didn't show any response. Probably because I fertilize @ every watering and they got all they needed from it.
> 
> It seems to me that instead of adding cal/mag supplements, those that have semi hard to hard tap water would be better off using well water instead.... But I guess at would only work if you grow plant that where not sensitive to high TDS water.



My well water is 2-3 times harder than your tap water. So I dilute it about 10:1 with RO

Your fert mix (MSU or K lite) already has higher hardness than your 10% tap water. So yes probably didn't even see the difference. But unless you try to run higher levels of K or need to offset a high alkalinity with a more ammonia based fert, I can't see getting much advantage out of running more Ca/Mg.

From looking at the analysis of the liquid kelp product I posted a ways back, you could just use that in RO or diluted tap water and everything would be happy.


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## keithrs (Jan 8, 2013)

Rick said:


> My well water is 2-3 times harder than your tap water. So I dilute it about 10:1 with RO
> 
> Your fert mix (MSU or K lite) already has higher hardness than your 10% tap water. So yes probably didn't even see the difference. But unless you try to run higher levels of K or need to offset a high alkalinity with a more ammonia based fert, I can't see getting much advantage out of running more Ca/Mg.
> 
> From looking at the analysis of the liquid kelp product I posted a ways back, you could just use that in RO or diluted tap water and everything would be happy.



Remember that I'm going to try an organic k lite program since I'm out of k lite. Not that I don't wont to buy k lite. I figure that this is the perfect time to try! I'm figuring to use 10-1-1 guano, neptunes kelp, 50/50 - Ro/tap, fulvic acid, and I'm going to try some N fixing bacteria. Will see I guess....

Everyone, Thanks for your help!!!


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## Ray (Jan 9, 2013)

Anyone coming to my store for K-Lite, don' freak. I'm totally sold out at the moment, but more is on the way.


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## Rick (Jan 9, 2013)

Ray said:


> Anyone coming to my store for K-Lite, don' freak. I'm totally sold out at the moment, but more is on the way.



That's good, I think I'm going to need to reload in the next month or so.


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