# cyp. parvi var parvi + more in virginia



## cnycharles (Jun 2, 2008)

ken hull and I took a lightning trip down to virginia over the memorial day weekend, saw some small southern yellow ladyslipper plus some other wildflowers and orchids at an undisclosed location in the heart of the state. the ladyslippers were all in one large clump and were just over 100 flowers in the clump. we were told there were more within a few miles but didn't find them. it was beautiful weather and there were u-pick strawberries to be had but ken was driving and wasn't interested in stopping (grr). the ladyslippers had a different fragrance which I couldn't place, maybe like very old-fashioned perfume of some kind






the whole clump was only maybe three feet across and mostly in full sun and on a fairly dry bank. ticks were to be found guarding the plants as well as the deer that ran away as I found the plants















trying to show the top and inside lip color





















----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
also were some wildflowers we found, ken knew what they all were





ken pointing out the edible fruits on the pink azalea


----------



## Heather (Jun 2, 2008)

Well, gee. I'm not posting MY Cyp. parvi var. parvi now! Good heavens that's FABULOUS!


----------



## cnycharles (Jun 2, 2008)

Heather said:


> Well, gee. I'm not posting MY Cyp. parvi var. parvi now! Good heavens that's FABULOUS!



well i'm not completely sure that these are small southern yls, so I need to see your pictures! some pictures i've seen the plants and flowers look different than this and others look pretty much like this; confusing
... and thanks!


----------



## Heather (Jun 2, 2008)

Tell me about it! 

I'm not sure either! These are the smaller of the two we have at GITW. Brian (who visited the other day) and I went round and round trying to figure out what our signage was telling us. I think we decided that the small was parvi. var. parvi, and the large was parvi var. pubescens? But contrary to my thinking, pubescens does not indicate larger, just fuzzier. 

Can we get some sort of final clarification on this (and NO jokes!)


----------



## Heather (Jun 2, 2008)

okay, here's my SMALL yellow.
Labeled parviflorum var. parviflorum.


----------



## NYEric (Jun 2, 2008)

Heather, give me my camera back! :viking: 
Cnycharles, that's amazing I can't believe they were just there and not planted and not totally eaten by deer, I hate ticks! Thanx for posting, U2 H.


----------



## Heather (Jun 2, 2008)

NYEric said:


> Heather, give me my camera back! :viking:




okay, that made me laugh - I will admit I thought when I uploaded the Ulla photo, "damn, how'd you get Eric's camera?" :sob:


----------



## cnycharles (Jun 2, 2008)

oh, too funny! :rollhappy:

usually, all things considered the standard yellows (parviflorum var. pubescens) will be much larger than the southern small yellows and the northern small yellows. .... you must be used to hearing from from nyeric all the time, I hadn't even thought about making a joke  
thanks for the pic, heather, the necks on those flowers is amazing. I can't say if that is normal because i've only seen pictures online. the plants we saw were fairly short, but then they were right in the sun and that could make them shorter

about the plants being 'there', I thought they might've been planted though when we were told there were others a few miles away I thought maybe there was a better chance they were 'just there'. about the deer, from what i've seen I don't ever remember seeing yellow ladyslippers of any kind eaten by deer. I've definitely seen showy ladyslipper buds/flowers eaten by deer. I've heard that you can get contact dermatitis if you handle the yellows too much so maybe that does ward off the deer a bit. maybe there is a way to isolate this compound and market it as a spray to put on plants that you don't want to get chomped by deer. 

Two summers ago I took a native orchid picture-taking trip through eastern long island, connecticut, mass., r.i. and cape cod, and I got some ticks on me from getting down to take pictures of spiranthes tuberosa. I didn't notice they were in the very short grass until I saw some dirt on the back of my film camera; I tried to wipe it off on the grass and then when I looked at the camera again it was covered with a swarm of tiny ticklets......  I was not happy to see them on me as well


----------



## Heather (Jun 2, 2008)

cnycharles said:


> oh, too funny! :rollhappy:
> you must be used to hearing from from nyeric all the time, I hadn't even thought about making a joke



Unfortunately, yes. oke:

Ticks are a problem here, indeed...I have a funny story about that but it needs to wait until I hook up a new surge protector. I'll PM you. We had a power outage last week and 3 weeks earlier a lightening strike at work so I'm a paranoid girl right now with regards to electronics.


----------



## cnycharles (Jun 2, 2008)

Heather said:


> Tell me about it!
> 
> I'm not sure either! These are the smaller of the two we have at GITW. Brian (who visited the other day) and I went round and round trying to figure out what our signage was telling us. I think we decided that the small was parvi. var. parvi, and the large was parvi var. pubescens? But contrary to my thinking, pubescens does not indicate larger, just fuzzier.
> 
> Can we get some sort of final clarification on this (and NO jokes!)



sometimes if the location is colder or fairly calcareous, the plants and flowers of standard yellow ladyslipper (cyp. parv. var pubescens) can be quite a bit smaller. In a fen a little ways north of where I work, there are a few yellow ladyslippers that aren't that tall except for one clump and that is mainly due to the lime in the water/soil and being cool. If you go much higher north in latitude where it is generally cooler they will be found more out in the sun, and the combination makes them shorter and with smaller flowers.

the northern small yellow (cyp. parv. var makasin) often has generally smaller plants but look sort of stretched with more stem between each leaf and flower, but definitely smaller flowers but the flowers look like they are on stilts kind of like what the flowers in your picture look like. I don't have enough experience to know what the cyp. parv. var parv (southern smalls) generally look like or if they range in size at all. I've seen pictures where the base of each leaf really clasp and wrap around the stems. most standard yellows seem to just have the leaves extending outwards and not really clasping the stem that much. small white ladyslipper (cyp candidum) really has that leaf that wraps around the stem


----------



## SlipperFan (Jun 3, 2008)

2nd photo is very striking.


----------



## KyushuCalanthe (Jun 3, 2008)

That clump is outstanding regardless if someone planted them there or not!


----------



## cnycharles (Jun 3, 2008)

SlipperFan said:


> 2nd photo is very striking.



thanks, I realized after I took it and was reviewing them all that it sort of looked like the old football play 'the flying wedge' with the running back trailing the front line. i know, guys can't seem to go very long without thinking about sports...

I agree about the planted or not thing; over a hundred blooms in a three-foot circle is just amazing, especially that as eric says the deer haven't eaten them or someone hasn't d** them u* . Ken was quite paranoid about our leaning over our cameras when someone would drive by as he didn't want to draw attention to something that a shovel-wielder might notice. a few people would ask what was so great that we were leaning over intently trying to get pictures and he would try to be really nonchalant and vague! we were right next to the road near a tourist area so not attracting attention was almost impossible.


----------



## JeanLux (Jun 4, 2008)

must have been a beautiful view!!! Jean


----------



## John M (Jun 5, 2008)

Wow. That clump with over 100 flowers is spectacular! Thanks for all the photos. It's so nice to see that!


----------



## paphreek (Jun 5, 2008)

Beautiful specimen! Thanks for the photos!


----------



## fundulopanchax (Jun 5, 2008)

An extraordinary wild clump! Well worth the trip to see it and thanks very much for sharing with us.

Ron


----------



## Nic (Jun 18, 2008)

Astounding. I was most impressed by the Trillium Grandiflorum Roseum. This is native to the Blue Ridge, but I cannot find a division anywhere. I have seen similar orchids in the hollers of Mason Co WV. That is an amazing clump, and in full sun, too!


----------



## cnycharles (Jun 18, 2008)

Nic said:


> Astounding. I was most impressed by the Trillium Grandiflorum Roseum. This is native to the Blue Ridge, but I cannot find a division anywhere. I have seen similar orchids in the hollers of Mason Co WV. That is an amazing clump, and in full sun, too!



I had thought they were just white trilliums that had gone past and turning pinkish and were more colorful about it than the ones I'd seen up here; didn't know it was a different variety. I'll have to tell Ken as he thought the same and didn't look closely at them.
I'd be interested in other spots where there might be some cyp. parv parv and that would be slightly closer to NY... sort of (smile). There had been a small tree to the right of the clump that had likely been over the plants originally, but had been cut away. I wondered if the plants would be taller if not in complete sun.


----------



## Nic (Jun 18, 2008)

cnycharles said:


> I had thought they were just white trilliums that had gone past and turning pinkish and were more colorful about it than the ones I'd seen up here; didn't know it was a different variety. I'll have to tell Ken as he thought the same and didn't look closely at them.
> I'd be interested in other spots where there might be some cyp. parv parv and that would be slightly closer to NY... sort of (smile). There had been a small tree to the right of the clump that had likely been over the plants originally, but had been cut away. I wondered if the plants would be taller if not in complete sun.



No I think that it is a blue ridge grouping called Grandiflorum var Roseum, on the cover of the Case's book "Trilliums" there is a clump. It is the Holy Grail for Trillium collectors and in jeopardy at the site you photoed. I cannot find anyone on the internet to sell me one, although I see them on plant lists for some institutional collections. Anyone sees any for sale let me know!


----------



## cnycharles (Jun 18, 2008)

Nic said:


> Anyone sees any for sale let me know!



I did a net search earlier and for the short time I looked at the list it was mostly sites in the uk that seemed to have them for sale. I did see results for grandiflorum roseum but didn't see us sites for sale


----------



## Nic (Jun 19, 2008)

cnycharles said:


> I did a net search earlier and for the short time I looked at the list it was mostly sites in the uk that seemed to have them for sale. I did see results for grandiflorum roseum but didn't see us sites for sale



Probably have to know someone who has it, and then barter.


----------



## Leo Schordje (Jun 19, 2008)

Years ago at Carson Whitlow's place - he had clumps of Cyp pubescens in bloom and a large clump of Cyp parviflorum. In addition to the differences in appearance, the fragrances were quite different. The Cyp parviflorum had a floral fragrance with a distinct rancid butter note in the fragrance. The Cyp. pubescens had a fruity floral fragrance, with a mango or peach note to the fragrance, very delightful. While not usually used for taxonomy - fragrances are good markers for the biochemisrty of the plant, and having different fragrances does point to selection for different pollinators.


----------



## Nic (Jun 19, 2008)

cnycharles said:


> I did a net search earlier and for the short time I looked at the list it was mostly sites in the uk that seemed to have them for sale. I did see results for grandiflorum roseum but didn't see us sites for sale



http://www.rareplants.co.uk/ has a T. Grand. Ros. but I think it is as shell pink hybrid and not the flower in your photo. This Trill opens a good pink, and deepens as it ages. Most Grandiflorum will pink up as they age but not to that extent. I think some of the Scots garden collectors have had Roseum for some time, they have some huge display clumps - in the Lowlands somewhere?


----------



## Heather (Jun 19, 2008)

Nic, I asked someone at work about this and will let you know if I find out anything via private message.


----------



## Nic (Jun 19, 2008)

Heather said:


> Nic, I asked someone at work about this and will let you know if I find out anything via private message.



Sweet!


----------



## cnycharles (Jun 19, 2008)

there was something I was wondering about at work today... if the pink grandiflorum is a different variety, then if there is a population of the red trilliums, and there are a few clumps that come up almost all white except for some veining that is red, is that a different variety or just near-albinism?
along the old erie canal trail very near my apartment there is a spot that has the largest population of red trilliums I've seen around, and there are some good numbers around upstate ny.

...and these aren't just a few white trilliums growing in with the reds, these populations don't mix along the trail and there are actually very few whites along there


----------



## Nic (Jun 20, 2008)

cnycharles said:


> there was something I was wondering about at work today... if the pink grandiflorum is a different variety, then if there is a population of the red trilliums, and there are a few clumps that come up almost all white except for some veining that is red, is that a different variety or just near-albinism?
> along the old erie canal trail very near my apartment there is a spot that has the largest population of red trilliums I've seen around, and there are some good numbers around upstate ny.
> 
> ...and these aren't just a few white trilliums growing in with the reds, these populations don't mix along the trail and there are actually very few whites along there



Getting in over my head here, but some Trilliums are red, just not Grandiflorum. The Roseum group is found in the wild only in the Blue Ridge, or so I have read. I have decided to get the Rareplants.uk Roseum anyhow, even with $35 for the CITES cert. Nice Galanthus selection also, and a frit treasure trove, but I will be too busy killing Cyps to kill any rare Frittilarys.


----------



## cnycharles (Jun 20, 2008)

i may have tried to put too many thoughts into my last post! There are two (more actually) trilliums in NY; trillium grandiflorum and trillium erectum (white and red trilliums). Down in the central atlantic region there are trillium grandiflorum usually white but one variety that grows pink instead. Up here there is a spot with a ton of trillium erectum, except there are a few clumps here and there that are almost all white. Just some red veining. They definitely aren't trillium grandiflorum. Should these red trilliums that are now white have a different variety name or are they just recognized as 'somewhat albino' trillium erectum? The flowers open this way, so it also isn't just a faded, old flower.
Just for the record there are at least two other trilliums in our area of NY; painted and nodding trillium.


----------



## Nic (Feb 23, 2009)

cnycharles said:


> i may have tried to put too many thoughts into my last post! There are two (more actually) trilliums in NY; trillium grandiflorum and trillium erectum (white and red trilliums). Down in the central atlantic region there are trillium grandiflorum usually white but one variety that grows pink instead. Up here there is a spot with a ton of trillium erectum, except there are a few clumps here and there that are almost all white. Just some red veining. They definitely aren't trillium grandiflorum. Should these red trilliums that are now white have a different variety name or are they just recognized as 'somewhat albino' trillium erectum? The flowers open this way, so it also isn't just a faded, old flower.
> Just for the record there are at least two other trilliums in our area of NY; painted and nodding trillium.



I have never seen painted trillium for sale. I would like to take a crack at that one year.


----------



## Nic (May 3, 2009)

Nic said:


> I have never seen painted trillium for sale. I would like to take a crack at that one year.



Apparently the Painted Trillium is impossible outside its native habitat. Thanks to Don Jacobs of Eco Gardens in GA for a great trillium book. Great plant list also for southern wildflowers to companion the orchids. I may have a source for the real pink grandiflorum. Sorry to bring the tone of this forum down with all of this trillium talk.


----------



## NYEric (May 3, 2009)

Evidently there's abunch of different trilliums planted downstairs, however I wouldn't know one if it was in the salad mix!


----------

