# Phrag. besseae, and dalessandroi - Some thoughts and observations.



## Lars Pedersen (Nov 23, 2011)

Phragmipedium besseae, and dalessandroi.
Some thoughts and observations.


For a long time I have been wondering about the different types of Phragmipedium besseae, and dalessandroi, and the relationships between them.

It is my hope that some day soon, someone professional, with a much deeper knowledge in this subject than I have, will write a monograph on “the,besseae complex” and sort out all the issues regarding types, species and variations within this magnifisent group of plants. 
There are just too many asumptions and false stories surrounding these plants.

In the mean time, I will try to contribute with my own thoughts and observations, knowing all too well that it probably raises more questions than it provides answers.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

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1.
dalessandroi.
Over the years there has been alot of discussion about wheather dalessandroi is a valid species or a variant.
I think the consensus today is that it is a valid species. 

2.
besseae, Ecuador.
There seem to be a general consensus that there are 2 types. The “Paute type” and the “Chigllinda type” The first having wider and rounder petals, and the later having narrower sometimes slightly dropping petals.

My own observations: 
First I must say I have not been to the habitat where the Paute population grows. 
But I have visited the habitat of the “Chigllinda type”, and I must say I am quite surpriced how big the variation is. 
There are - at the same location - growing both stolonous and non stolonous plants.
And also plants with both narrow and wide petals. Pictures below is from that location.


























As far as I know, it was in this area that dalessandroi was discovered. Could the large non stolonous plant on the first picture be a dalessandroi ?

Or have I got the geography wrong ?

Is the same variations present at the Paute habitat ?

3.
besseae, Peru
I have the impression that the Peru type is more compact than the Ecuador type, and more red in color. 
Is that a fact, or is it because of selected clones available ?

Is the Peru type concistently non stolonous or is it showing the same variation as the Ecuador type ?.

4.
besseae flava
The yellow type was found somewhere in Peru.
As far as I know only one plant was found.

Is it stolonous or non sotlonous, and is it consistant in that manor ?

5.
dalessandroi
This ecuadorian species, is (or was?) found only in a very limited area in southern Eccuador.
There has been alot of discussion over the years regarding these plants.
But I still have few questions.

Are there both multifloral, and sequentilaly flowering forms of this species ?

Are the multiflorals “just” well grown plants, or is it genetically determined ?

If it is genetical, are they still the same species ?

Here is a picture of my multifloral type.





6.
Natural hybrids 
There has been alot of talking about a natural hybrid between besseae and dalessandroi (Phragmipedium Jersey).
Is that a known fact or is it an asumption ?

Has mixed populations of besseae and dalessandroi ever been documented ?

From what I have seen of the habitat where they grow, it could be a probleme mixing the species if they dont grow quite close together. 
The terrain is very mountainous, and “just in the next valley”, does not mean that both are within reach for a polinator.

Well this is it for now 

Lars


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## Dido (Nov 23, 2011)

Great pictureas from the wild love them


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## Shiva (Nov 23, 2011)

Lots of very good questions Lars. Your suggestion of a monograph is long overdue in my opinion.


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## NYEric (Nov 23, 2011)

The yellow type came from a large bunch that Popow had. . I dont know where the batch came from. It was a single sport and Tom Kalina was able to save it and that is the source of all of them.


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## gonewild (Nov 23, 2011)

How close to the Peruvian border in Ecuador are the besseae locations?
I'm wondering how far geographically apart they are.


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## Lars Pedersen (Nov 23, 2011)

The only distributionmap that I know of is this:
http://www.slipperorchids.info/phragdatasheets/mapmicro.jpg

I dont know if it is the reality.

Thanks Eric for the info.


Lars


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## Rick (Nov 23, 2011)

With all the variation in plant habit at one site, and my observations of how much nutrition effects can change plant habit, I would argue that plant habit is not a viable way to differntiate species.

The concept of species is based on genetic isolation (which for flowering plants is strictly based on the form/function of the flower).

One Mountain valley may be a rough traverse for a human, but probably not much for a flying insect. But even if you are dealing with a low traveling (maybe territorial insect) with a small home range, that still doesn't mean that pollen must be transfered across the valleys on a regular basis to make the different flower forms the same "species"

At this point we are talking blonde vs brunette Italians. Just some local/regional village differences of the same species. Not enough to preclude them from being both Homo sapiens.


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## gonewild (Nov 23, 2011)

Rick said:


> At this point we are talking blonde vs brunette Italians. Just some local/regional village differences of the same species. Not enough to preclude them from being both Homo sapiens.



Yes. And aside from that aspect the area on the map between the Peruvian location and the Ecuador location has not been very well explored as of yet. In fact I have been told about a possible population of "red" Phragmipediums in Peru about halfway between the known locations. So it may turn out that there is a continual besseae population from Peru to Ecuador without any real gaps that would cause genetic isolation.


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## Roth (Nov 24, 2011)

NYEric said:


> The yellow type came from a large bunch that Popow had. . I dont know where the batch came from. It was a single sport and Tom Kalina was able to save it and that is the source of all of them.



In fact Popow imported a huge quantity of besseae for a nursery that was at the border with the East Germany. He sold them 'quite expensive', and the nursery owner called him one evening to tell him that he felt screwed, as the orange besseae turned to be yellow...

Popow got back the clump, that was really large ( I have seen photos of the plant nearly two decades ago). and sold a few divisions. All the 'early yellow besseae' were in fact division of that one, including the several Japanese awarded ones. 



Lars Pedersen said:


> Phragmipedium besseae, and dalessandroi.
> Some thoughts and observations.





> But I have visited the habitat of the “Chigllinda type”, and I must say I am quite surpriced how big the variation is.
> There are - at the same location - growing both stolonous and non stolonous plants.
> And also plants with both narrow and wide petals. Pictures below is from that location.



Paphiopedilum armeniacum, micranthum and malipoense do the same. A part of the stoloniferous habit is genetic, the other one is largely environmental. I would say that some plants can never make stolons (including in Paphiopedilum malipoense and emersonii colonies), and they will never. 

Some can make stolons genetically, some other colonies of malipoense, some colonies of emersonii, micranthum, armeniacum... but they will make short stolons or very long ones depending on the environment... Micranthum and armeniacum nearly always will make stolons, malipoense and emersonii will not usually if well grown, but plants from those colonies, under adverse conditions, can make very long stolons...



> As far as I know, it was in this area that dalessandroi was discovered. Could the large non stolonous plant on the first picture be a dalessandroi ?



In fact no one knows, except one of the many collectors that supply the traders, and even the traders maybe do not know anymore from whom they bought that batch....



> 3.
> besseae, Peru
> I have the impression that the Peru type is more compact than the Ecuador type, and more red in color.
> Is that a fact, or is it because of selected clones available ?



Always more compact, more red, and never makes stolons. I have seen couple hundreds plants in the 90's at Popow nursery, and Glanz had quite a few too. They never made any stolons. Tom posted a photo of those. They were considered extinct for two decades.

The Peruvian got it once from one collector, then the collector refused to collect again, so the Peruvians smuggled plants from Ecuador for resale. Only recently, apparently they found back the Peruvian colony without stolons.

4.
besseae flava
The yellow type was found somewhere in Peru.
As far as I know only one plant was found.
Is it stolonous or non sotlonous, and is it consistant in that manor ?

The original plant makes stolon, but not very long. It was in a batch from Ecuador, not Peru, supplied by Dennis D'Alessandro to Popow ( long story again), nearly 25 years ago.

5.


> dalessandroi
> 
> Are there both multifloral, and sequentilaly flowering forms of this species ?



The plants I have seen twenty years ago were all very similar, never sequentia, but always branchingl. It was really genetically determined, and it is a trait they pass to their F1 progeny very clearly... Yours is the first one I see since a very long time.





> Natural hybrids
> There has been alot of talking about a natural hybrid between besseae and dalessandroi (Phragmipedium Jersey).
> Is that a known fact or is it an asumption ?



That would be absolutely impossible, because dalessandroi and besseae do not have the same chromosome numbers, and when bred together to make Jersey, the hybrid is always sterile. The only way to make it fertile again is to treat it with colchicine and screen the tetraploids, a work Don Wimber did in his time for the Eric Young.



> Has mixed populations of besseae and dalessandroi ever been documented ?



If there are mixed populations, there could be no artificial hybrids, or just plants individually, because the hybrid is sterile. I would think too that the colonies would end up with all sterile plants given time, and the colony would disappear. I have seen it in France, where we have some natural tetraploid and diploid dactylorhizas. At the junction of two species ( some species are only known by their tetraploid state), you get a natural swamp of hybrids, and some decades later, a complete collapse...


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## Rick (Nov 24, 2011)

I don't think that a natural hybrid of plants with two different chromosome counts necessarily will result in sterile offspring.

Plants are so much more genetically "plastic" than animals. There is are several intriguing animal cases were hybridization between sympatric (lizard) species of differing chromosome counts has resulted in fully viable parthenogenic populations.


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## Roth (Nov 24, 2011)

Rick said:


> I don't think that a natural hybrid of plants with two different chromosome counts necessarily will result in sterile offspring.
> 
> Plants are so much more genetically "plastic" than animals. There is are several intriguing animal cases were hybridization between sympatric (lizard) species of differing chromosome counts has resulted in fully viable parthenogenic populations.



Yes, and there are more strange things, besseae x longifolium and dalessandroi x longifolium are fertile, however the dalessandroi x besseae have been done a few times, and the progeny was really sterile... except when converted to tetraploids.


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## Lycaste53 (Nov 24, 2011)

Lars, 
I like your questions, and the answers too, which you got , maybe it needs someone who has the time and experience to summarize all the informations, 
to share it ´au public´in one of the international orchid magazines?
Best regards, Gina


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## Lars Pedersen (Nov 24, 2011)

Hi
Thanks all
I just got home from spanish class, and it is now bedtime 
I will read the answers more closely tomorrow and get back to you..

Thanks again
Lars


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## Lars Pedersen (Nov 26, 2011)

I guess that the nursery owner who returned the yellow clump must have been red in his face later 

So the original yellow clone came from Ecuador ? 
I would love to read that story some day!
I am very interested in the histore of our plants, and I think it adds to the vallue of a plant when the history surrounding it is availible.

The thing you mention about autark hybrids beeing sterile makes good sence.

But it also raises questions about the supposed natural hybrids of besseae and dalessandroi in the wild.
I Will ask questions about this, when I hopefuly next hear is back in Ecuador.

Also it makes good sence that the reportedly stolonous peruvian besseae, are actualy ecuadorian specimen that "mystreriesly" turns up in Peru.

Two things still puzles me ( at least):

The plants with long stolons groning along side with nonstolonous plants under the same conditions (or at least within a few meters from each other). See the first two pictures.

And the sequentially versus the multiflower dalessandrois.....???

I was told, on the site of out guides, that some of the plants were dalessandroi.
...... But were they?
At least I saw no evidence of multifloral plants.
I know that doesnt nessaseraly mean that they were not there.....

Again I Will ask questions in Ecuador.

.... And here until I feel enlightened 

....article.... yes good idea. 
I will work Getting someone to do that.

Thanks
Lars


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## Kyle (Nov 26, 2011)

I got back from Ecuador yesturday. I visited five besseae populations. There is a variation between shape and colour between the populations. This points to some isolation of genetic material and that pollenators do not easily move from site to site.

However, I never saw any plants that I would consider dalessandroi or xjersey. The only place I saw true dalessandroi was at a nursery near Loja. A nursery of local collected plants. This makes me believe that dalessandroi comes from that area. It would be a couple hundred kilometers from the closest besseae population I know about.

I have GPS points from all the populations I've visited, I will try to import them to Google earth and post the map so you can get an idea of the distribution.

Kyle


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## Lars Pedersen (Nov 27, 2011)

Thanks Kyle

Maybe you could PM the coordinates to me, I would really love to see the if somme pattern start to show.
If the altitudes are recorded, i would love to see them too.

If more of you have data, the more precise we can make the map.

Have you taken more pictures ?

Thanks
Lars


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## Justin (Nov 27, 2011)

Kyle said:


> I got back from Ecuador yesturday. I visited five besseae populations. There is a variation between shape and colour between the populations. This points to some isolation of genetic material and that pollenators do not easily move from site to site.
> 
> However, I never saw any plants that I would consider dalessandroi or xjersey. The only place I saw true dalessandroi was at a nursery near Loja. A nursery of local collected plants. This makes me believe that dalessandroi comes from that area. It would be a couple hundred kilometers from the closest besseae population I know about.
> 
> ...



is it a good idea to post that info publicly?


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## Kyle (Nov 27, 2011)

Yeah, all the sites I have are road sides. Not really secret sites.


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## Lars Pedersen (Dec 29, 2011)

5. Phrag. Dalessandroi


This ecuadorian species, is (or was?) found only in a very limited area in southern Eccuador.
There has been alot of discussion over the years regarding these plants.
But I still have few questions.

Are there both multifloral, and sequentilaly flowering forms of this species ?

Are the multiflorals “just” well grown plants, or is it genetically determined ?

If it is genetical, are they still the same species ?



Anyone have any thoughts on this ?

Happy Newyear
Lars


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