# Paph micranthum, what varity is this?



## SlipperKing (Mar 27, 2009)

I can't lay claim to bringing this fellow in to bud but I didn't blast it either! As you can see the pouch is 85-90% white with a light blush of pink a round the rim. The flower is not completly opened yet. Is this the eburneum varity or just a very pale normal micranthum? Any rate this a quick flash pic to post before turning in for the night!






I have another surprise for you all in regards to this flower later.


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## Hakone (Mar 27, 2009)

SlipperKing said:


> I can't lay claim to bringing this fellow in to bud but I didn't blast it either! As you can see the pouch is 85-90% white with a light blush of pink a round the rim. The flower is not completly opened yet. Is this the eburneum varity or just a very pale normal micranthum? Any rate this a quick flash pic to post before turning in for the night!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hello Rick,
have you photo of the leaf ?


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## Bolero (Mar 27, 2009)

No idea but when it flattens out it will be a beauty. Such lovely colour definition!


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## biothanasis (Mar 27, 2009)

I love it!!!! Truly great colours!!!


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## SlipperKing (Mar 27, 2009)

Hakone, Leaf PIC tonight!


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## CodPaph (Mar 27, 2009)

magnific, very nice


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## goldenrose (Mar 27, 2009)

:clap: :clap: GORGEOUS!!! :drool: :drool: :smitten:


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## Elena (Mar 27, 2009)

I can't answer your question but it's gorgeous!


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## parvi_17 (Mar 27, 2009)

It's a gorgeous micranthum, whatever variety it is! Usually eburneum is pure white on the pouch but I have seen pics of ones that are pale pink as well. The leaves will tell.


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## likespaphs (Mar 27, 2009)

SlipperKing said:


> ...I have another surprise for you all in regards to this flower later.



when you gonna tell us what it is? 
i ain't no good with surprises....


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## e-spice (Mar 27, 2009)

Very nice. To my untrained eye it looks like a great looking standard micranthum.

e-spice


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## Potterychef (Mar 27, 2009)

Rick , nice looking mic. Doug


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## slippertalker (Mar 27, 2009)

I wouldn't call this an eburneum but it is very nice. Paph micranthum is very variable in shape and color as they come from multiple populations with some segregation.


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## NYEric (Mar 27, 2009)

It doesn't look like eburneum.


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## SlipperFan (Mar 27, 2009)

I like the white pouch.


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## SlipperKing (Mar 28, 2009)

As Promised, here is the leaf picture. I know the flower is out of focus but the leaf is clear.





Two more looks: The back





Ans a not so great side shot


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## kentuckiense (Mar 28, 2009)

The leaf certainly makes me think micranthum var. micranthum. micranthum var. eburneum is generally wider and far less upright. The leaves on mine are almost parallel to the ground.


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## SlipperKing (Mar 28, 2009)

Thanks for the input Kentuck. They are certainly upright.


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## SlipperKing (Mar 28, 2009)

likespaphs said:


> when you gonna tell us what it is?
> i ain't no good with surprises....


I was wondering how long it would take before someone ask about the surprise! Pan down and take a look at this and tell me want you all think.





















It has expanded slighty more since yesterday but not to what I would call normal. I truely believe it went under some stress getting to me and I'm lucky I guess it didn't blast. This could an example of how micranthum got it's name originally.


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## Hakone (Mar 28, 2009)

Hello,
Congratulation , that is paph. micranthum var. eburneum :clap:


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## kentuckiense (Mar 28, 2009)

Ah. I will defer to Hakone on this one. Probably knows a lot more about these than me.


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## SlipperKing (Mar 28, 2009)

Hakone said:


> Hello,
> Congratulation , that is paph. micranthum var. eburneum :clap:


Thanks Hakone. I appreciate your keen eye.

Kentuck, again thanks for your input as well.


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## goldenrose (Mar 28, 2009)

Hakone said:


> Hello,
> Congratulation , that is paph. micranthum var. eburneum :clap:



:drool: Share with us the difference please!

:clap: Congrats Rick 'The King'! :clap:
The pressure is on to keep it alive, grow & rebloom it!


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## Hakone (Mar 28, 2009)

the leaf and the dorsal pouch


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## goldenrose (Mar 28, 2009)

Hakone said:


> the leaf and the dorsal pouch



Can you describe the difference or show pics?


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## Hakone (Mar 28, 2009)

Hakone said:


> the leaf and the dorsal pouch




micranthum var. eburneum







micranthum normal


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## goldenrose (Mar 28, 2009)

:clap: Thanks Hakone- a picture is worth a thousand words!


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## parvi_17 (Mar 28, 2009)

Those are definitely regular micranthum leaves. var. eburneum has much wider leaves, as kentuckiense said. Also, they have silver spots on a very dark green background, so the mottling is slightly different as well. It's a very nice micranthum, though!


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## parvi_17 (Mar 28, 2009)

Nice pics Hakone!


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## kentuckiense (Mar 28, 2009)

Check out the pics from slipperorchids.info:

var. micranthum:
http://slipperorchids.info/paphdatasheets/parvisepalum/micranthum/Paphmicranthum(topview).jpg

var. eburneum
http://slipperorchids.info/paphdata...thum/Paphmicranthum(var)eburneum(topview).jpg

Here's a quick and dirty photo of mine. var. eburneum on left, var. micranthum on right.


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## NYEric (Mar 29, 2009)

I'm suprised it's so teenie! I can't wait to get one to bloom and to get some thaianums! Yay mini Parvis!!!


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## SlipperKing (Mar 29, 2009)

NYEric said:


> I'm suprised it's so teenie! I can't wait to get one to bloom and to get some thaianums! Yay mini Parvis!!!


That sounds like a wonderful plant Eric.
I've bloomed micranthums before, granted this is the first eburneum if that is correct, but none of the others I've bloomed have been so little. I was very surprised to see that it was "teenie". I think on future bloomings it will be much larger.


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## Leo Schordje (Mar 30, 2009)

Hey Rick, 
I only play a taxonomist when prognosticating on the Web, I am not a real taxonomist. With that comment made, I have been growing and occasionally blooming micranthum var eburnum for many years. I do not feel your plant is eburnum. I think your plant is likely from Viet Nam. The description of micranthum var eburnum says they come from Kwong See (Cantonese transliteration of the Chinese province name) The leaves are a MUCH deeper blue green than the color of the leaves you have pictured. There are relatively few silver flecks in the leaves so the overall effect is a blue-black leaf color. The pouch is nearly pure white with just a hint of pink around the edges. The pouch interior does have the same dark spotting. The background color of the dorsals and petals are more yellow fading to white. Some eburnum flowers almost look albino.

(I read on the internet) There was a large (probably illegal, but don't really want to go there) importation of hundreds of micranthum collected in Viet Nam that turned up with a number of California growers in 1997. Most were sold as 'seed' raised plants, so their origin information was lost. (laundered) 
They have the lighter colored leaves of type micranthum, but they have pouches that vary from bi-colored pink & white through to a nearly white pouch. They are not var. eburnum because that variety only comes from China, and has the very dark colored foliage. But because they have the white or mostly white pouch people incorrectly call them eburnum. 

I recently bloomed a dwarfish micranthum that I am guessing is from that 1997 Viet Nam collection, though I would not be able to prove one way or the other where it came from. I am guessing your plant is from that same sub-population. Here is my picture. I think I would just leave the label as Paph micranthum, or micranthum Dwarf Variety, and resist the temptation to call it eburnum. You might also send your photos to Olaf, see what he thinks. 

The foliage that Kentuckiense has posted as being var eburnum is too light, unless that light color is an artifact of the flash. I would doubt that his is true var.eburnum either. Sorry, not trying to be negative, that is just this man's opinion. The proof will be in the blooming. When my laptop gets back from the shop I will post images of both eburnum and normal micranthum. But that may be a few weeks away. 
- Leo


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## Rick (Mar 30, 2009)

Leo

Has your "dwarf" variety bloomed more than 1 time (i.e. is the trait consistent with the plant)?


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## Leo Schordje (Mar 30, 2009)

My dwarfish micranthum has bloomed twice, and so far the trait seems consistient. Your plant makes the 2nd dwarf I have heard of. If your stays consistient, we may have stumbled into a new "variety" of micranthum. Because we do not have collection data, at best we could list this as a horticultural variety. We should not refer to it as a taxonomic variety. That would only muddy the water further. The foliage of your dwarf is nearly identical to the foliage of my dwarf. 

On the same theme there is a dwarf form of armeniacum that comes from Yin Nan, I had seen a few a decade ago, but I think they were mostly lost because their flowers were not big enough for the growers to stay interested in them. I am keeping my eye out for this one also. Ross, you thinking about these in a breeding program?

I don't want to discourage anyone who may have paid extra for a micranthum eburnum, but there are really very few true var eburnums in the USA, and some of the dealers may actually not know the differance and may be unintentionally sell the slightly more common white pouch Viet Nam type wrongly thinking they have true var. eburnum from Kwong See, China. Regardless, I have never seen a micranthum that I did not find at least pretty to exquisitly beautiful. It is a wonderful species. All of them are a delight to bloom.


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## SlipperKing (Mar 30, 2009)

Thanks for the info Leo...At the time of the photo w/ quarter the flower measured ~1 inch across and 1.5 vert which is pretty teenie. I believe it has expanded more.


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## kentuckiense (Mar 30, 2009)

Leo, my plant is from the Kwongsi sib cross offered by both Orchid Inn (http://orchidinnusa.com/plants.jsp?kind=paphiopedilum&type=species&page=2) and Orchids Limited (http://www.orchidweb.com/detail.aspx?ID=1219). Perhaps it is due to not white-balancing my camera before taking the photo, but my plant has silvery-blue leaves.


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## SlipperKing (Mar 30, 2009)

Well, I thought the small size was due to stress but maybe I am really surprised! It would be cool to capitalize on this unique trait.


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## kentuckiense (Mar 30, 2009)

I agree. I'm a big fan of miniature slippers.


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## NYEric (Mar 30, 2009)

The dark color in the leaf tasselations of eburneums I've seen was bluish-green.


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## Leo Schordje (Mar 30, 2009)

kentuckiense said:


> Leo, my plant is from the Kwongsi sib cross offered by both Orchid Inn (http://orchidinnusa.com/plants.jsp?kind=paphiopedilum&type=species&page=2) and Orchids Limited (http://www.orchidweb.com/detail.aspx?ID=1219). Perhaps it is due to not white-balancing my camera before taking the photo, but my plant has silvery-blue leaves.



OK, both Orchid Inn and Orchids Limited are knowledgable, in fact it was Sam, Orchid Inn, who I got my Kwong See from back in 1993 or 1994. So your sources are good. Must be the camera and lighting not showing the dark color. 



SlipperKing said:


> Well, I thought the small size was due to stress but maybe I am really surprised! It would be cool to capitalize on this unique trait.



My flower started almost as small as yours, but it did expand to its current size over the course of a week. - yes, instead of dumping these plants as small flowered loosers, let's create a new market for mini-micranthum. :evil: I like the shape of your plant a little better than mine. Starting bids at $$$$.


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## parvi_17 (Mar 30, 2009)

This is turning out to be an interesting thread. If this helps, here are some of my plants:




These are two of my regular micranthums. To me, the top one looks like the leaf in Rick's photo. The bottom one is a little different but still has the narrow leaves.




And this is micranthum var. eburneum, from Orchid Inn, with darker, broader leaves.


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## SlipperKing (Mar 30, 2009)

Wow Joe it looks like your eburneum is in bud. Is it?

Great comparion too thanks


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## parvi_17 (Mar 30, 2009)

SlipperKing said:


> Wow Joe it looks like your eburneum is in bud. Is it?



It is!!


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## kentuckiense (Mar 30, 2009)

Leo Schordje said:


> OK, both Orchid Inn and Orchids Limited are knowledgable, in fact it was Sam, Orchid Inn, who I got my Kwong See from back in 1993 or 1994. So your sources are good. Must be the camera and lighting not showing the dark color.



Do you think it could be related to culture, too? I was discussing this issue with someone I consider to be my micranthum mentor, and he told me that wild collected Kwongsi micranthum actually have fairly typical long and narrow leaves. Once in cultivation, the leaf morphology becomes that of what we normally consider to be var. eburneum. He showed a photo of freshly collected micranthum from Kwongsi and they had fairly typical leaves. I wonder just what level of leaf morphology plasticity there is.


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## Rick (Mar 30, 2009)

kentuckiense said:


> Do you think it could be related to culture, too? I was discussing this issue with someone I consider to be my micranthum mentor, and he told me that wild collected Kwongsi micranthum actually have fairly typical long and narrow leaves. Once in cultivation, the leaf morphology becomes that of what we normally consider to be var. eburneum. He showed a photo of freshly collected micranthum from Kwongsi and they had fairly typical leaves. I wonder just what level of leaf morphology plasticity there is.



On plants that I've had for 5+ years (pre dating my humidity control efforts). I've seen huge changes in the size and shape of leaves.

Basically warm dry and bright = short broad leaves, while cool humid and shaded = long relatively narrow leaves (much more surface area in general).

I bet I've seen this about a dozen times, and not just paphs.


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## Leo Schordje (Mar 30, 2009)

Kentuckiense - "Cutlure is Everything" yes, that can dramatically change the way a plant looks. People often under estimate this effect. As I think about it some of my eburnum have thrown new growths with narrow leaves. Let's see what they bloom like. 

Joe - your plant var. eburnum is exactly the slight blue shade in the dark green that I see in my var eburnum. 

A general note, and something to watch out for. For Paphs that occur in both Viet Nam and in China, there is a long established smuggling route that goes from Viet Nam to China, where the species gets mixed in with plants of Chinese origin. Then from China to Taiwan, from Taiwan to Europe and the USA. Sometimes Europe to USA, also. At each step the origin of the plants may get altered or 'fictionalized'. The final importer may really believe they are getting seedlings raised in cultivation, or what ever they are being told, so there may be no wrong intent on the part of many of the middlemen, or the final seller, but the origin listed for the plants is frequently not what people are being told. Long ago I learned not to be too attached to the stories that people tell me about the origins of their plants. On the other hand, as much as possible I preserve the tale - just in case time and flowers give me evidence it is true. Trust - but don't bet too heavily on it unless you can verify it by some other means. Over the years I had some interesting lies told me, and mistakenly believed most of them, even repeating a few of them out loud and proud. The public embarrassment when shown wrong does teach humility. 

Leo


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## NYEric (Mar 31, 2009)

OK, then I will only buy Paph micranthum v. Eburneum in bloom! $$


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## Leo Schordje (Mar 31, 2009)

NYEric said:


> OK, then I will only buy Paph micranthum v. Eburneum in bloom! $$



If the price is about the same as a regular micranthum, buy it anyway, because worst case, you got another micranthum. And I have never seen a micranthum I didn't like. 

If the premium is modest - likely the plant being sold is the Vietnamese variety with the white pouch, a worthy variety in its own right. Somewhat more available than the Kwong See eburnum, but not very common. 

But if you are paying a significant premium, it might be better to wait and get one in bloom or a division of a previously bloomed plant with photographs, or a guarranttee that you can return or exchange it if it is not true to type.

Those are my thoughts
Leo


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## SlipperKing (Mar 31, 2009)

I like your thoughts Leo. Eric could have a plant now for a mier 100 bucks, guarenteed!


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## NYEric (Mar 31, 2009)

Oh no thanx, I never bargain shop!


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