# Leucochilum



## kiwi (Jan 31, 2021)

A bunch of first flowering from Taiwanese flask.


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## Tom-DE (Jan 31, 2021)

Very nice!
Is your name Jordan?


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## kiwi (Jan 31, 2021)

Hi Tom,
My name is Jason.


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## DrLeslieEe (Jan 31, 2021)

Your selected one is very nice. 

Any idea of parentage?

How long from flask to bloom in GH?


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## kiwi (Jan 31, 2021)

Thanks Leslie. I deflasked these in March 2019. The parents are as follows.


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## DrLeslieEe (Jan 31, 2021)

Amazing! Fast growers and good shapes overall. The parents passed the good genes on.


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## Ozpaph (Jan 31, 2021)

that is superb growing and a very nice group of seedlings.


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## Justin (Feb 1, 2021)

Excellent!


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## Just1more (Feb 1, 2021)

I’d love to own any or all of those quints! They are beautiful!


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## BrucherT (Feb 1, 2021)

kiwi said:


> A bunch of first flowering from Taiwanese flask.View attachment 25121
> View attachment 25122


Wow. Who produced the flask?


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## kiwi (Feb 1, 2021)

BrucherT said:


> Wow. Who produced the flask?


These came from YY orchids in Taiwan


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## werner.freitag (Feb 1, 2021)

number 4 is great ! very fast to flower !


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## GuRu (Feb 2, 2021)

These are lovely flowers, well grown plants and extremely fast growers when I think of 1.5 years from deflasking to flower. Congrats 
But sorry to be the killjoy, not all are P. godefroyae var. leucochilum in the strict sense. Leucochilum means 'clearly white pouch' without any red spots on it.
But this doesn't matter anything. I for myself enjoy all these flowers if they are P. godefroyae or P. godefroyae var. leucochilum.



kiwi said:


> A bunch of first flowering from Taiwanese flask.View attachment 25121
> .....


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## HairBear73 (Feb 2, 2021)

Beautiful, excellently grown


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## BrucherT (Feb 2, 2021)

kiwi said:


> These came from YY orchids in Taiwan


Thank you!


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## NYEric (Feb 2, 2021)

Nice shapes. Good job.


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## Duck Slipper (Feb 2, 2021)

Very nice.


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## Hien (Feb 2, 2021)

extremely beautiful . Some of your flowers are even better than the FCC Leucochilum/godefroyae from Krull Smith in the past . Obviously this cross is outstanding as other recent crosses , I wonder whether YY acquired any of the parent stud plants from Thai's breeders. One of the famous ones comes to mind is the famous Joe . By the way this species is my favorite paph as well. I currently have 38 leucochilum and godefroyae in collection, if I have to keep just a few plants, they definitely a must .


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## DrLeslieEe (Feb 2, 2021)

I made a sib cross of my black leucochilums last year and they are just sprouting in the lab. I hope they bloom 2 years out of flasks too!! Any secret?


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## kiwi (Feb 2, 2021)

GuRu said:


> These are lovely flowers, well grown plants and extremely fast growers when I think of 1.5 years from deflasking to flower. Congrats
> But sorry to be the killjoy, not all are P. godefroyae var. leucochilum in the strict sense. Leucochilum means 'clearly white pouch' without any red spots on it.
> But this doesn't matter anything. I for myself enjoy all these flowers if they are P. godefroyae or P. godefroyae var. leucochilum.


Thanks. So if there is even one spot on the pouch are they godefroye? Some have no spots while others have some.


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## kiwi (Feb 2, 2021)

DrLeslieEe said:


> I made a sib cross of my black leucochilums last year and they are just sprouting in the lab. I hope they bloom 2 years out of flasks too!! Any secret?


I got a flask of black ones from the same supplier and have a first flower almost open. I will post soon.


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## kiwi (Feb 2, 2021)

DrLeslieEe said:


> I made a sib cross of my black leucochilums last year and they are just sprouting in the lab. I hope they bloom 2 years out of flasks too!! Any secret?


I keep these at a minimum of 18oC and try not to overwater.


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## kiwi (Feb 2, 2021)

Hien said:


> extremely beautiful . Some of your flowers are even better than the FCC Leucochilum/godefroyae from Krull Smith in the past . Obviously this cross is outstanding as other recent crosses , I wonder whether YY acquired any of the parent stud plants from Thai's breeders. One of the famous ones comes to mind is the famous Joe . By the way this species is my favorite paph as well. I currently have 38 leucochilum and godefroyae in collection, if I have to keep just a few plants, they definitely a must .


Thanks Hien. I will definitely be keeping all of these.


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## DrLeslieEe (Feb 2, 2021)

kiwi said:


> I got a flask of black ones from the same supplier and have a first flower almost open. I will post soon.


Wow can't wait. Also same period of growth?


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## kiwi (Feb 2, 2021)

E


DrLeslieEe said:


> Wow can't wait. Also same period of growth?


xa the same


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## kiwi (Feb 2, 2021)

kiwi said:


> E
> 
> xa the same


Exactly


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## Hien (Feb 3, 2021)

DrLeslieEe said:


> I made a sib cross of my black leucochilums last year and they are just sprouting in the lab. I hope they bloom 2 years out of flasks too!! Any secret?


I would love to see the photos of your two black leucochilum parents , could you post them ?


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## DrLeslieEe (Feb 3, 2021)

Here are the parents of my sib cross of my black leucochilums:





Paph. leucochilum 'Black Beauty' JC/AOS (bottom pic) x Paph. leucochilum 'Freckled Pouch' (top pic).

What's interesting is that the 'black color in them are actually very dark magenta or dark brown that layers on top of each other multiple times until it looks black in certain lights and angles. That's why in this breeding line, solid 'reds' also occur.


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## GuRu (Feb 3, 2021)

kiwi said:


> Thanks. So if there is even one spot on the pouch are they godefroye? ......



Exactly, that's what the description means. Only on this base you could create a new varity. You can't count spots and say until X spots its leucochilum and more than X spots it's godefroyae.


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## GuRu (Feb 3, 2021)

DrLeslieEe said:


> Here are the parents of my sib cross of my black leucochilums godefroyaes:
> Paph. leucochilum godefroyae 'Black Beauty' JC/AOS (bottom pic) x Paph. leucochilum godefroyae'Freckled Pouch' (top pic).



Leslie, sorry to say this in your case, too. They both are beauties but they aren't var. leucochilum but Paph. godefroyae.


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## kiwi (Feb 3, 2021)

DrLeslieEe said:


> Here are the parents of my sib cross of my black leucochilums:
> 
> View attachment 25165
> View attachment 25166
> ...


These are amazing


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## DrLeslieEe (Feb 3, 2021)

GuRu said:


> Leslie, sorry to say this in your case, too. They both are beauties but they aren't var. leucochilum but Paph. godefroyae.


Rudolf, I understand the reasoning behind the definition of leucochilum, where the delineation from gofefroyae is a spotless pouch. 

However as far as I know, the dark black 'leucochilums' come from direct pure white pouched leucochilums. As a result of this heritage, the names were maintained to reflect this lineage. 

Since leucochilum is a 'distinct' species from godefroyae based on current taxonomy and Kew checklist, the name has been maintained in this line breeding, eventhough it obviously does not fit the initial original description of this species. 

It is my thinking that this definition must be revisited by today's taxonomists to broaden it to reflect current breeding. One cannot simply renamed a leucochilum line into another species by virtue of these selectively bred traits. 

For the record, I myself think they are the same species with varying amounts of color in their pouches. You see, not all pure white pouched leucochilums breed 100% pure white pouches. Nor do all godefeoyaes never produce pure white pouched offspring.

Therein lies the dilemma that will forever be a moot point in these kinds of discussions, until a taxonomic review clears these distinctions between these two species.


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## GuRu (Feb 3, 2021)

DrLeslieEe said:


> Rudolf, I understand the reasoning behind the definition of leucochilum, where the delineation from gofefroyae is a spotless pouch.
> However as far as I know, the dark black 'leucochilums' come from direct pure white pouched leucochilums. As a result of this heritage, the names were maintained to reflect this lineage.
> Since leucochilum is a 'distinct' species from godefroyae based on current taxonomy and Kew checklist, the name has been maintained in this line breeding, eventhough it obviously does not fit the initial original description of this species.
> It is my thinking that this definition must be revisited by today's taxonomists to broaden it to reflect current breeding. One cannot simply renamed a leucochilum line into another species by virtue of these selectively bred traits.
> ...



Leslie, I understand your thoughts and some of them I carry in my mind, too. I'm no taxonomist I just pointed at the problem. I also kwow that many breeders/vendor use the name 'leucochilum' very 'easy' without beeing aware what it means in the sense of the desription. But what I think to know is....you never could let judged your plants as Paph. godefroyae var. leucochilum but only as Paph. godefroyae.


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## Ozpaph (Feb 3, 2021)

I have no idea how you flower these 2-3 years from flask - amazing.
All tips appreciated.


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## kiwi (Feb 3, 2021)

Ozpaph said:


> I have no idea how you flower these 2-3 years from flask - amazing.
> All tips appreciated.


I think they are just very vigorous. I keep them at a minimum of 18oC and use k-lite at around 20ppm N at every watering. I think they like to be kept moist but not soaked.


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## Justin (Feb 3, 2021)

DrLeslieEe said:


> Here are the parents of my sib cross of my black leucochilums:
> 
> View attachment 25165
> View attachment 25166
> ...



Amazing. Will you keep all your flasks?


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## DrLeslieEe (Feb 3, 2021)

Justin said:


> Amazing. Will you keep all your flasks?


Depends on how many flasks I get. Germination rate is low unfortunately.

Also, most flasks are already on waiting list. 

Please standby.


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## Ozpaph (Feb 3, 2021)

what mix are you using? watering schedule?


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## kiwi (Feb 3, 2021)

Ozpaph said:


> what mix are you using? watering schedule?


I use kiwi bark (seedling grade), perlite, and clay balls at a ratio of 4:1:1. Watering on average is every 2 days.


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## kiwi (Feb 3, 2021)

Hien said:


> I would love to see the photos of your two black leucochilum parents , could you post them ?


I cant find the photos of the parents but they were both the same as this.


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## Neill Sams (Feb 3, 2021)

DrLeslieEe said:


> Here are the parents of my sib cross of my black leucochilums:
> 
> View attachment 25165
> View attachment 25166
> ...


Incredibly beautiful ! Does anyone sell flasks of these?


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## kiwi (Feb 3, 2021)

Neill Sams said:


> Incredibly beautiful ! Does anyone sell flasks of these?


I am currently looking for more so I can let you know once I find out.


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## Neill Sams (Feb 3, 2021)

That would be fantastic, Thanks!


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## emydura (Feb 3, 2021)

Just incredible. I wish I could grow these.


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## DrLeslieEe (Feb 3, 2021)

kiwi said:


> I am currently looking for more so I can let you know once I find out.


Lots in Taiwan and Thailand. You will need to 'secure' them, perhaps in group orders for each country.


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## Djthomp28 (Feb 3, 2021)

Great thread. Informative post and phenomenal photos! I have three leuchochilum. However none like these.


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## musa (Feb 4, 2021)

It's all your fault... now I'm in desperate need of leucochilum... and still no orchid show in reach!


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## DrLeslieEe (Feb 4, 2021)

musa said:


> It's all your fault... now I'm in desperate need of leucochilum... and still no orchid show in reach!


Try Popow?


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## GuRu (Feb 4, 2021)

DrLeslieEe said:


> Try Popow?



Yes try Popow.....but be aware Popow is also a nursery/vendor who uses the term 'leucochilum' far-ranging. If you want a true var. leucochilum with a pure white pouch buy only (a) flowering plant(s) and insist of seeing a flower photo before the buy. Another source is Hilmar Bauch


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## Ozpaph (Feb 4, 2021)

David, me too..........................just fabulous culture


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## musa (Feb 4, 2021)

Leslie, Popow is for a while on my screen. There are two crosses leucochillum Black Pearl x Red Dragon I had in mind...
Rudolf, Hilmar is my usual dealer when coming to Hirschstetten show, pitty it is cancelled this year. Thanks for the reminder.
And finaly there is the new list of Hengduan... my budget is not happy...


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## Guldal (Feb 4, 2021)

Rudolf is absolutely right in reserving the epithet 'leucochillum' for plants with flowers with an outside, exclusively unspotted pouch.

Well aware, that I'm just a humble orchid grower, in my world it would make much more sense to see them as different colour forms of godefroyae: i.e. Paph. godefroyae and Paph. godefroyae fma. leucochillum. I think, that Leslie's information about the different outcomes in breeding could be seen as supporting this assumption.


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## werner.freitag (Feb 4, 2021)

Thats how Thai growers differentiate the two varieties / species with common names .
And they grow in different provinces.
The pouch is not a clear characteristic.

-Naree white shoes, Chumphon (P. godefroyae)
-Naree yellow shoes, Trang Or Phangnga Nari shoes (P. godefroyae var. Leucochilum)

I think they are varieties ...................................


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## southernbelle (Feb 4, 2021)

Thats black!!


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## musa (Feb 5, 2021)

I do not yet have an idea as I'm just starting with Brachys. But godefroyae var leucochilum sounds reasonable...


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## werner.freitag (Feb 5, 2021)

just looked in Olaf Gruss new book . He follows Braem & Chevron and calls it godefroyae forma leucochilum.


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## Guldal (Feb 5, 2021)

werner.freitag said:


> just looked in Olaf Gruss new book . He follows Braem & Chevron and calls it godefroyae forma leucochilum.





Guldal said:


> ...in my world it would make much more sense to see them as different colour forms of godefroyae: i.e. Paph. godefroyae and Paph. godefroyae fma. leucochillum. I think, that Leslie's information about the different outcomes in breeding could be seen as supporting this assumption.


I'm humbled of being in such illustrious company!


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