# Phrag D'allesandroi



## smartie2000 (Mar 18, 2007)

I just came home from my society meeting and bought 4 cubic feet of bark (113 litres) and other potting stuff. I also got 2 masdevallias for only $6, someone just wanted to rid of them. There were so many cheap masd, but I bought too late and got the left overs.

And I got this D'allesandroi, which I believe are rare to find, especially in Canada. I didn't notice that it was misspelled as Phrag besseae var. dealesandro x sib (‘Echo’ x ‘Doug Pulley’) on its original tag with it's the stock number beginning with Z untill I got home. I google it and I find speculation that this cross is actually a Phrag Jersey (D'allesandroi x besseae) from OZ on SOF. I bent the spike on this during transit so I don't know if it will keep blooming, maybe it will branch?...I'm starting to really love besseaes!
What do you think ID experts?


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## kentuckiense (Mar 18, 2007)

Whatever it is, it's gorgeous.

Does it have stolons? I've seen photos of OZ "d'als" that clearly weren't because they were climbing with huge stolons.

Furthermore, I'm not entirely convinced of d'alessandroi as an acceptable taxon. Have there been any studies that show that all of the Ecuadorian d'alessandroi populations are monophyletic when compared with Ecuadorian besseae as a whole?


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## toddybear (Mar 18, 2007)

I'm green with envy! I've never seen dallesandroi or Jersey for sale in Canada! I'd be happy with either!


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## smartie2000 (Mar 18, 2007)

This guy is so obsessed with phrags, its where I get most of Phrags here. He called himself FatOldBaldGuy Orchids:rollhappy: at the orchid show and got an AOS nomination for a besseae this year. I think he brought this plant up from the states himself.

I'm gonna go check on stolons the plant is potted so deeply...


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## smartie2000 (Mar 18, 2007)

The new growth is higher up than the old growth so it is potted deeply, so it looks like it climbs. The new growth is close to the old growth. I don't want to unpot it yet because I don't want to have an accident with the spike, the media is all heavy rock.

The pot is clear and I see no stolons or runners.


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## Heather (Mar 18, 2007)

I think it is probably a besseae if it climbs. Or Jersey. JM2cents.


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## Kyle (Mar 18, 2007)

kentuckiense said:


> Furthermore, I'm not entirely convinced of d'alessandroi as an acceptable taxon. Have there been any studies that show that all of the Ecuadorian d'alessandroi populations are monophyletic when compared with Ecuadorian besseae as a whole?



I don't think thats ever been done, but when you see a real dalessandroi beside a besseae, you will believe that the seperation is warranted. The plants and flowers are quite distinct. I have heard that some natural hybridization occurs, but can't back that up with any proof.

Your plant looks like besseae, maybe a Jersey. The pouch is to long and pointed and the floweres come off the spike at the wrong angle (close to 90 instead of 45), and the stolon.

Just my opinion.

Kyle


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## smartie2000 (Mar 18, 2007)

oops I noticed I even spelled the species wrong! ....dalessandroi is what the orchid registry uses. No wonder I can't find more info when I googled...

Another vendor also had a more ideally shaped dalessandroi for $65. The shape looked exactly like a full shaped besseae....


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## Hien (Mar 18, 2007)

It is still a very nice flower


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## smartie2000 (Mar 19, 2007)

A picture of the plant, and staminode and arrangement of petals. 













I think the bloom was knocked quite badly. It's developing bud is limp...


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## Park Bear (Mar 19, 2007)

love the color


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## isaias m rolando (Mar 19, 2007)

I do not understand why it is not just a variety of P. besseae. It certainly looks similar, and very nice, than many P. bessae in Peru. Does anyone know if DNA studies fingerprints have been done? 
Thanks for info
Isaias


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## NYEric (Mar 19, 2007)

The flower shape doesn't look like [most] stuff I've seen called Phrag. dalessandroi, but then again the one I got from Dennis Dalessandro hasn't bloomed yet so I wont say for sure.


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## smartie2000 (Mar 19, 2007)

Tom from Fox Valley has told me that all of (`Echo' x `Doug Pulley') were Jersey. It's a sibbling cross, so I'm guessing both parents were Jerry then.

It does have what I think is a tiny horn on it's staminode. According to Kyle's post on SOF these dalessandroi have no horn. Tom's last OZ bloom fell off so he can't look at the staminode to see if there's a 'protuberance'. His also had some stolon growth, but shorter than a besseae. Tom also told me that Kyle is writing a paper on this stuff. Do Jersey's have horns?

My second bud is developing even though it is like flopping on the other bloom. I wish I took better care

Is dalessandroi still recognized as a species? Someone said it wasn't....


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## kentuckiense (Mar 19, 2007)

smartie2000 said:


> Is dalessandroi still recognized as a species? Someone said it wasn't....


Kew Monocot Checklist lists it as a variety. I'd agree with that.


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## ORG (Mar 19, 2007)

Here a picture of a true _Phragmipedium _Jersey. The growth are very near together without climbing stolones.





Best greetings

Olaf


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## smartie2000 (Mar 19, 2007)

Then its called Phrag besseae var. Jersey? lol...


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## ORG (Mar 19, 2007)

It should be called *Phrag. Jersey*, when it is the cross between _Phrag. besseae_ and _Phrag. dalessandroi_. 
Both species are accepted in the registration of hybrids by the Royal Horticultural Society.

The name _Phrag. besseae_ var. Jersey is really nonsense.

Best greetings

Olaf


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## isaias m rolando (Mar 19, 2007)

Well, I've got an answer for DNA finguerprints for what is called Phrag dallesandroi. Who told me? Dr Mark Chase is here in San Jose de Costa Rica for the III International Orchid Conservation Conference. We attended also the Orchid Show last sunday. The answer is NO, the DNA counting is similar so it should be considered as a variety, NOT a specie. Probably this is why at Kew's list it is considered a variety and not a species.
If anybody would like answers I have a group of fine scientists here, all toguether. So lets take advantage.
Have a good night


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## ORG (Mar 19, 2007)

Dear Isaias,
I could live with the decision that _dalessandroi _would be a variety of _besseae_, but the here shown is whether a typical _besseae _nor a typical _dalessandroi _(or in your line _besseae _var. _dalessandroi_).

We need in the future a clear line of artificial propagation and the labeling of the results. In the past a great mxture between all local forms of _besseae _was produced. Now it is near impossible to identify these plants.

Best greetings

Olaf


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## Kyle (Mar 20, 2007)

I was under the impression that the two had different chromosome counts. Is that true?

Kyle


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## isaias m rolando (Mar 20, 2007)

What a propblem Olaf
It will be just imposible to follow up the hybrids...
We are trying the DNA testing in our University. Lets wait for the results of DNA counts and fingerprints...
Isaias


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## NYEric (Mar 20, 2007)

Has anyone made a chromosonal check w/ plants from Dennis D., whom, I'm sure, has access to the original material?


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## Kyle (Mar 20, 2007)

NYEric said:


> Has anyone made a chromosonal check w/ plants from Dennis D., whom, I'm sure, has access to the original material?



I think the best plant for DNA would be tom Kalinas plant that was ID'd as a true dal. That or a plant collected from the wild in a area far from known besseae populations.

Counts have been done, I done know by who. I imagine Olaf knows. Olaf?

Kyle


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## John M (Mar 20, 2007)

It was my understanding that D'allesandroi was considered a variety of besseae *until* the chromosone count was done and it was discovered that D'allesandroi had a different number than besseae. This fact, as well as the physical differences between the two, is the reason why D'allesandroi was elevated to species status.


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## isaias m rolando (Mar 21, 2007)

I'll check with Phil Cribb, Rudolf Jenny and others here in San Jose to look for exact data on counts and DNA fingerprints, if scientifically published.
Hope to have answers by Friday or Saturday.
I think Olaf's opinion is VERY NECESARY here now, OLAF?
Isaias


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## ORG (Mar 21, 2007)

Here are the chromosome-numbers counted by Don Wimber

Species
Art
Phragmipedium	Chromosomenzahl	Autor
besseae 2n = 24	WIMBER
dalessandroi 2n = 28	WIMBER
besseae var. flava 2n = 24, 25, 26	WIMBER


The chromosome-number is an interesting hint for the status of a species, but the morphology is more interesting. I have decided some year ago for myself that a difference of 5 points is necessary for a new species, 3 for a variety.
When I described dalessandroi together with Dodson we described differences in the growths, the inflorescence, the staminode, the petals and also the colour. So we thought that it is enough for a distinct species.
Kyle has shown these differences very clearly in an article of our journal Die Orchidee.

The final decision is always a subjective decision, also when we tried to decide on the base of objective criteria.
The DNA analyze (based only on a sequence of the DNA) could give us new informations about the relationship between the species but cannot give us the final decision if our decision was correct or not.

On the other hand. For me it is necessary that we cultivate these plants under the correct names, if as a species or a variety. We know also that there is a difference bewtween the different local forms of besseae and also dalessandroi. We should stop the mixing of these gene-potential. When we don't do it, we will have in the future no true species only a mixing.


Here the picture of the typeplant of _Phrag. dalessandroi_






and a group of some years ago in Jersey, named in this time as besseae







Best greetings

Olaf

Please excuse the short words and my bad english, but I had along and hard day in the school.


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## isaias m rolando (Mar 21, 2007)

Amen Olaf, Amen...
I agree with you. DNA SEQUENCE AND COUNT SHOULD NOT be considered as the last word. As you said at the very end it will be alwyas a subjective issue at the botanist discretion. I am very fine with that.
Thank you very much Olaf for your kind info.
Isaias


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## isaias m rolando (Mar 21, 2007)

Olaf
Is there anything I can do for you in this IOCC Meeting?
Isaias


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## ORG (Mar 21, 2007)

Dear Isaias,
many thanks for your words.
Just this time you could say only the best greetings to Phillip and Rudi. I hope that Rudi yould get his slides early enough for his lecture there.
Perhaps I will have time and the possibility in the future to come to a meetings of IOOC.
Best greetings from the now snowy Bavaria

Olaf


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## isaias m rolando (Mar 21, 2007)

OK Olaf
I will stand behind Rudy, and try to be nice with Phil C...
Best regards
Isaias


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## Heather (Mar 21, 2007)

NYEric said:


> The flower shape doesn't look like [most] stuff I've seen called Phrag. dalessandroi, but then again the one I got from Dennis Dalessandro hasn't bloomed yet so I wont say for sure.



I'll be curious to see yours bloom Eric. The one I got from him was most likely a Jersey. 

Regarding the points of difference, I have noted that Jersey and dalessandroi both seem to have more pronounced fenestration on the pouch than besseae also.


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## NYEric (Mar 22, 2007)

ORG said:


> Best greetings from the now snowy Bavaria
> 
> Olaf


Home of Mad Ludwig!oke:


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