# K-Lite Testers: What do you grow, and have you made any observations?



## Ray (Nov 21, 2012)

I ask because I just had a user contact me about cattleyas and nobile dens growing outside in Florida.

They often tolerate the 40's before being brought in, but the observation was a reddening of the edges of older/lower leaves (possibly indicative of P-deficiency), and apparently premature loss of lower leaves.

The question was "can the low mineral levels lead to lowered temperature tolerance?"

I am close to 1 year of exclusive use of the formula on a wide variety of plants - paphs, phrags, a variety of vandaceous types, cymbs, catts, phals, oncids, etc. - and I have seen no negative effects.

Thoughts? Comments? Possible alternate explanations?


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## likespaphs (Nov 21, 2012)

could it be a water quality issue or is the only water for the plants rain?


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## Marc (Nov 21, 2012)

One observation I've done so far is that since I've been using K-lite I haven't seen any orange rot / erwinia. Yay


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## gonewild (Nov 21, 2012)

Ray said:


> The question was "can the low mineral levels lead to lowered temperature tolerance?"
> 
> Thoughts? Comments? Possible alternate explanations?



If you are talking to about lower mineral levels within the plant tissue then I would say the answer is, No. 
Speaking about plants in general and not just orchids it has always been my experience that plants that have had fertilizer withheld prior to winter tolerate colder temperatures better. A plant that is "hardened off" compared to a plant that is in a state of active growth resists temperature extremes better.

Probably the K-Lite has kept the plants in a more active state of growth so the lower temperatures may have more of an effect. 

On the Dends you refer to perhaps the change they see is actually more normal for the species going into dormancy?


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## Rick (Nov 21, 2012)

My catt's and what few dendros I have are doing fine, but they are in the GH and not getting down below 60 so far.

Is the K lite being used with a tap or well water rather than an RO, rain, or otherwise soft low alkalinity system?

I took a really great growing/blooming doritus pulcherima to a show recently, where it experienced a significant temp and humidity drop. In less than 2 weeks its dropped almost all its flowers, and several lower leaves on different growths. Off all the plants I took to the show, this one showed the strongest effect.

How was the growth over the summer?


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## keithrs (Nov 21, 2012)

I grow out doors and have nothing neg. to report. I do have one plant... Rhyncholealia glauca that does have red pigment around the edges of the older leaves and are yellowing but that's because I keep it in full sun. It's going into spike as we speak.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 21, 2012)

It's been just about a year I've been doing low K. No ill effects at all. Can't say I am that much better either, but as long as it has no negative effects I will keep up with it.


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## abax (Nov 22, 2012)

I can't speak for outside growers, but in my greenhouse K-Lite has been
a blessing. I grow Phal. species and primaries with a scattering of hybrids and Paphs. (mostly Brachy) and a few miscellaneous orchids and other stuff
like a Bearss lime tree and everything is doing especially well. Not a laggard to be seen at all. I'm very impressed with K-Lite.


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## Stone (Nov 22, 2012)

Ray said:


> ,
> 
> 
> > but the observation was a reddening of the edges of older/lower leaves
> ...


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## Ray (Nov 22, 2012)

Here is another response from the grower:

"_Thanks for getting back to me. BTW I saw the post on slippertalk - no problem with any of my Dens or where you combining different people?_ (No, just my poor memory adding that...)_

To answer the some of the questions from there, I water mostly with rain water, supplement with tap water. But my tap water comes out of the faucet at avg. of 6.8pH. Mineral content of the tap is very very low.

Also, yes the plants new growths are hardened off for the most part. The majority of them do their growing in summer. Growth this past summer was better than previous years.

Also, its not the edges of the leaves turning red, it's the whole leaf. Not that bright red you get from high sun, but a dull red._"

With 10% Mg in the formula, I don't see how it could be a deficiency in that, but I hope to get a report back later.


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## Rick (Nov 22, 2012)

It's not inconceivable that magnesium is deficient if Ca is boosted well beyond what is in the K lite, either through calcareous pot amendments or from the drinking water.

pH 6.8 say's nothing directly about the mineral content of water. What is the TDS, or more specifically the hardness of the tap water?

I would give it a shot to supplement a bit with epsom salts.


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## Ray (Nov 25, 2012)

Had another bit of off-line feedback:

_I exclusively used k-lite for almost a year. Everything grew fine through spring and through summer. Not any better than regular MSU but equally as well. I usually don't have to many things spiking in summer so everything seemed fine. Toward the end of summer I noticed things slow down on growth just as they should have been picking up. I noticed a good amount of leaves getting a yellow green cast (a sign of potassium def.). Then not to many things spiking. I have some phrags that bloom every year better than the last. This year the bloomed but kept blasting buds (multiple plants). When they started spiking they started dropping older leaves quick. I fed with a normal fert and in two weeks the same spikes were blooming. Now my plants are blooming and back to green. There are so many variables it could have been a lot of things like my water or mix. I do flush a lot, before every feeding and during the week so maybe they just weren't getting enough fert because of that. But I had not changed anything else but k-lite. Same water, mix, light and temp from year to year. On another note my Den. nobile are not setting buds this year, they had already in previous years. They are dropping a lot of leaves._

I have a few comments of my own.

1) I have used the K-Lite fertilizer for right on a year now - using it exclusively at 50 ppm N at every watering. I am experiencing none of the problems this person passed along. In fact, my plants seem to be growing significantly better as fall has come along, and many of my complex paphs are in-bud/in bloom now and look great. A couple of plants that had not bloomed for year are doing so again - although I attribute that to not overdosing them, rather than the formula, itself.

2) The cross I made is still holding two slowly-plumping capsules, so I see no issue there.

3) Personally, I do not see this formula as "adding" anything, so I would not expect to see an improvement over the MSU formula. Instead, it is intended to forestall - and maybe prevent - issues associated with the accumulation of potassium.

4) The comment that "I fed with a normal fert and in two weeks the same spikes were blooming." suggests very strongly to me that the original problem was not nutrient related - plants simply don't respond that quickly.


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## Rick (Nov 25, 2012)

I would really like to get a comprehensive water quality analysis of their irrigation water and know whether or not there are amendments to the potting mix.

General "paleness" is not the usual symptom of K deficiency.

I would be more concerned about nitrogen and Mg deficiency first.


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## Ray (Nov 25, 2012)

Rick said:


> I would really like to get a comprehensive water quality analysis of their irrigation water and know whether or not there are amendments to the potting mix.
> 
> General "paleness" is not the usual symptom of K deficiency.
> 
> I would be more concerned about nitrogen and Mg deficiency first.



I agree.

I noticed a paleness in a few plants a while back, but it corrected itself when I resumed watering (and feeding) more frequently. I suspect that now that I am feeding at a very low concentration, compared to previous years, there is little excess in what I apply, suggesting that a reduction in frequency can cause an overall deficiency, not specific to the formula.

Quoting Bill Argo's comments to me early in this trial:

"_As these plants grow, watch out for 2 things._

_Potassium deficiency - you will see an edge burn that starts on the lower leaves and works its way up the plant.

Phosphorus deficiency - The growth will stall, and the plants will either take on a dark green cast, or they will have a reddish color in the older leaves._" Not paleness.

Again - if you think of feeding as a way to provide "calories", and the low concentration is a "low-cal" diet, it is obvious that it is important to keep up the "meals" provided. I would have to ask folks to provide concentration and feeding frequency in their analyses.

I am still not convinced that the current K-Lite formula is the final, correct one, but I have not seen issues.


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## Rick (Nov 25, 2012)

Looking back at Bjorns results with urea or ammonium nitrate addition resulted in some pretty fast "greening up". Also advocated by Xavier in the European market where the water is notoriously hard and alkaline.

Here in North America, Wendy, Leo, and Cheyenne had good results with MSU, and they either have very hard water or/or lots of calcareous pot amendments.

The only paling I've seen in my plants occurred in pots/baskets were I had lots of Cichlid Sand, or where potting mix TDS (including alkalinity) went too high. Flushing with my RO shifted things back to green pretty fast. There are also several folks here in middle TN that are doing some form of low K work around and seeing great results. One grower that has really weird very low TDS/hardness/alkalinity well water is seeing exceptional results. His collection is predominantly Catts and Stanopheae types.

The present K lite is made for RO/rain water. If we need a second formula for the high hardness/alkalinity folk, I would look at changing the nitrogen component.


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## abax (Nov 26, 2012)

*Just an observation about watering immediately*

before fertilizing: what's the use of fertilizing if the outer coating of the
roots has already absorbed the water? I don't advocate completely dry
conditions before fertilizing, but if the velum can't absorb additional moisture it seems to me that fertilizing at that time could produce a deficiency of several key components of the fertilizer. Makes no sense to me.


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## The Mutant (Nov 26, 2012)

I haven't used K-lite for that long, but I've noticed some issues which might have to do with some deficiency of some sort. I've noticed yellowing of leaves, and what I believe might be potassium deficiency, and a high amount of bud blasting. This, on the other hand, could have to do with me being a newbie to Paphs or it could have something to do with what *Rick* says in the quote below here in the bold part:



Rick said:


> Looking back at Bjorns results with urea or ammonium nitrate addition resulted in some pretty fast "greening up". Also advocated by Xavier in the European market where the water is notoriously hard and alkaline.
> 
> Here in North America, Wendy, Leo, and Cheyenne had good results with MSU, and they either have very hard water or/or lots of calcareous pot amendments.
> 
> ...


I do not use RO/rain water, so I think I should switch back to my original 20-20-20 fertilizer, or maybe mix it with K-lite ('cause I think the Ca, Mg are good for my chids).

My tap water has rather low dH-levels, 2.9 - 3.1, but pretty high pH-levels, 7.8 - 8.4. Conductivity are 15 - 17 mSm (which is pretty low for tap water I've heard). 

Oh, BTW, what does *TDS* stand for?


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## gonewild (Nov 26, 2012)

The Mutant said:


> I haven't used K-lite for that long,



How long?


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## The Mutant (Nov 26, 2012)

gonewild said:


> How long?


Good question! I've no idea really, thought i had written it down, but apparently I hadn't. I think about six months at least.


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## Brabantia (Nov 26, 2012)

@abax:
Ionic species can enter the root already impregnate with water by the osmosis phenomenon. Osmosis is a natural phenomenon that creates a balance (isotonicity) in pressure between liquids and solutes inside and outside the cell. Water and ionic solutes will pass in and out of cell walls until an equilibrium is reached and the level of solutes in the water surrounding the cell is the same as the level of solutes in the cell. When the water surrounding the roots disappears (the roots are drying) salts concentration in the cell (in the root) increase. This is the reason why the roots can be burned when this concentration increase at to hight values.


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## Rick (Nov 26, 2012)

The Mutant said:


> My tap water has rather low dH-levels, 2.9 - 3.1, but pretty high pH-levels, 7.8 - 8.4. Conductivity are 15 - 17 mSm (which is pretty low for tap water I've heard).
> 
> Oh, BTW, what does *TDS* stand for?



TDS stands for total dissolved solids (salts).

converting your dH and conductivity levels to what I use in TN, your hardness is 53.5 mg/L as CaCO3, which is soft by EPA standards. But double check your conductivity units. If it really is mSm and not micro (uSm) then your conductivity is about 16000 uSm. For comparison my well water straight up has a conductivity of maybe 600 - 800uSm. And I dilute my well water for final conductivity around 50-80 uSm. 

Also the pH of around 8.0 with that low hardness could indicate a fairly high alkalinity (which is the big driver for ammonia, rather than nitrate use in K lite). Do you have an alkalinity value?

Also have you been addling lime or other high carbonate materials to your potting mix?

To have a low hardness and high conductivity would indicate a high amount of monvalent (sodium or potassium) salt in your system.

Do you use a water softener at your house?

Really need to get a better handle on your water chemistry.


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## Rick (Nov 26, 2012)

Actually just caught that you conductivity units are as mS per meter instead of centimeter as I use in US.

So you divide by 100 to get to cm

So your conductivity is about 160 uScm, which is just fine and representative of soft water.

So the next question is are you using any pot ammendments?


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## The Mutant (Nov 26, 2012)

Rick said:


> TDS stands for total dissolved solids (salts).
> 
> converting your dH and conductivity levels to what I use in TN, your hardness is 53.5 mg/L as CaCO3, which is soft by EPA standards. But double check your conductivity units. If it really is mSm and not micro (uSm) then your conductivity is about 16000 uSm. For comparison my well water straight up has a conductivity of maybe 600 - 800uSm. And I dilute my well water for final conductivity around 50-80 uSm.
> 
> ...





Rick said:


> Actually just caught that you conductivity units are as mS per meter instead of centimeter as I use in US.
> 
> So you divide by 100 to get to cm
> 
> ...


It's really hard with all these different units! Especially for someone like me with no knowledge of chemistry and other fun things like that. 

I'm reading on the website about our water quality, and it says that they add something, sodium hydroxide, I don't know if that's the correct term, to increase the pH-levels.

What's an alkalinity value (yup, you're talking to newbie here)? I don't have any figures for that one I'm afraid. I think I could call the city hall and ask tomorrow though.

In my own mix I use, bark (pine), sphagnum, and perlite, but most of my Paphs are still in the substrate they came in which is plain bark (don't kow which kind though). Lime? Do you mean like the fruit (yes, I'm very tired now) or as in limestone/crushed oyster shells? I use crushed oyster shells in the substrate for my calcicolous Paphs, but no other.

We don't need a water softener, this is the communal tap water I'm using and it's soft enough already.


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## Rick (Nov 26, 2012)

The Mutant said:


> I'm reading on the website about our water quality, and it says that they add something, sodium hydroxide, I don't know if that's the correct term, to increase the pH-levels.
> 
> What's an alkalinity value (yup, you're talking to newbie here)? I don't have any figures for that one I'm afraid. I think I could call the city hall and ask tomorrow though.
> 
> ...



After figuring out your units for conductivity, this water is soflt and low salt. Adding sodium hydroxide (caustic) is a fast way to raise pH, but my be pushing the alkalinity up. Try letting the water stand or aerate with an aquarium pump for a day or so and see if the pH drops.

You shouldn't need to add the crushed oyster shell or other lime products when using K lite.

Given the very short time frames over which you are seeing problems, I think you have something more fundamental in your culture going on. Temp fluctuations, low humidity, and/or lighting limitations.


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## abax (Nov 27, 2012)

Brabantia, please explain "ionic species". I understand the concept of osmosis, but I don't see exactly how that applies to fertilizing roots that
are already totally soaked with water. Wouldn't some components of the
fertilizer be lost in the balancing process?

Please understand that I have a PhD in Renaissance English Literature and a limited understanding of chemistry beyond the most basic level.
Forgive my ignorance.


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## Ray (Nov 27, 2012)

Brabantia said:


> @abax:
> Ionic species can enter the root already impregnate with water by the osmosis phenomenon. Osmosis is a natural phenomenon that creates a balance (isotonicity) in pressure between liquids and solutes inside and outside the cell. Water and ionic solutes will pass in and out of cell walls until an equilibrium is reached and the level of solutes in the water surrounding the cell is the same as the level of solutes in the cell. When the water surrounding the roots disappears (the roots are drying) salts concentration in the cell (in the root) increase. This is the reason why the roots can be burned when this concentration increase at to hight values.



True enough, but you are ignoring that the rate of permeation is highly dependent upon the concentration at the membrane.

If the velamen is saturated with water, and the fertilizer solution "zooms by" as it does through most media, then the amount that penetrates that saturated velamen will be quite low, and the amount penetrating the cell membranes beneath will be minimal.

Add to that the fertilizer dilution factors many of us use, and the amount making it to the plant is minuscule, making Angela's "why bother" entirely appropriate.


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## Hera (Nov 27, 2012)

Ray, where does this put the advice we usually see of watering with plain water then fertilizer water ie: not fertilizing dry roots? Is that wrong? I'm a light fertilizer to begin with and I'm concerned that perhaps my approach is wrong.


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## Bjorn (Nov 27, 2012)

If this is a potential problem, then why not start to add fertilizer with every watering? I have done it for a couple of years now with excellent results growth-wise. Normally approx 400ppm TDS (should be some 40-50ppm N). I turn off the fertilizing regime in winter though to leach out excess. My water is mainly rain water these days, and never hard/alkaline. I have never had burnt leaf-tips or roots. even with phragmipediums like bessae, kovachii and schlimii.
Btw. been using K-lite for almost a year now. No negative effects yet, except for (perhaps) too vigorous growth?
Since my composts (for calcicolous paphs/phrags) are mainly composed of limestone, marble etc, I would have liked some more ammonia/urea in the mix though.


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## Ray (Nov 27, 2012)

Personally, I think the "water first, before fertilizing" guidance is very old, and based up the practice of feeding very infrequently, but with strong solutions.

Back when I was asked to feed the orchids at the "public greenhouses in Piedmont Park" (Atlanta Botanical Gardens) - almost 40 years ago - feeding was roughly monthly, and was done with solutions that were bright blue coming from the hose, suggesting a very high concentration. I don't recall the dilution, but I'd bet it was in the 300-400 ppm N area, with a TDS in the multiple-thousands. With that regimen, one absolutely HAD TO water first.

Using the 40-50 ppm N Bjorn and I agree on now, it's not only unnecessary, but counter-productive.


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## Cheyenne (Nov 27, 2012)

When I water before fertilizing I do it on the weekend. That lets me water on Saturday morning, a good flush. Then I turn my fans up, I have fans under my benches that allow air under the pots. Then I come back on Sunday afternoon and fertilize everything. So the pots are not still saturated. The bark is just moist. Then I turn the fans underneath off if I don't need them. I am not usually fertilizing at 50 ppm N, usually higher, thus the reason I flush first. Sometimes is I do use around 50 or so ppm then I skip the flush. If I did feed that low and water right before I fertilized then obviously the plants would not be getting that much fert. I spoke with Sam from Orchid Inn, I think everyone can agree that he grows some awesome slippers. He said this is what he does every watering every week. When I used other fertilizers, same amount of fert, same flush, same temp, same water, same mix, same light. No problem, plants were nice green, blooming great. But I had to rotate between cal nitrate, mag sulfate and fert. I do realize K can get in the way of uptake of cal, mag, ect. The logic is right, even if I don't believe it had to be that low, but is a good Idea. I figured it would allow the plants to take up more cal/mag and still supply nitrogen. So that is why I tried it, to simplify things. Not because I was having problems before but to cut steps out.


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## Erythrone (Nov 27, 2012)

Marc said:


> One observation I've done so far is that since I've been using K-lite I haven't seen any orange rot / erwinia. Yay



It is a very good for using K-lite!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Brabantia (Nov 27, 2012)

abax said:


> Brabantia, please explain "ionic species". I understand the concept of osmosis, but I don't see exactly how that applies to fertilizing roots that
> are already totally soaked with water. Wouldn't some components of the
> fertilizer be lost in the balancing process?
> 
> ...


Ionic species are the fertilyser constituents like, nitrate (NO3-), potassium (K+), phosphate (PO4---), Calcium (Ca++), Magnesium (Mg++) and the micro-elements Iron (Fe+++), Zinc (Zn++) and so one. In solution all these species are in ionic form, (they are dissociate) and carrying positive or negative charges which are in equal quantities in the solution (the solution is electrically neutral).
About the transfer of ionic species in the roots: indeed there is a limit with the quantity of ionic species which can be absorbed by the plant. This is why there is no reason to increase the quantity of fertilyser distributed beyond a certain value. This quantity of fertilyser to be solubilized can be evaluated by measuring the ionic species remaining (not fixed by the roots) one or two days after the fertilyser distribution. One can have an image of this quantity by percolating a modest amount of pure water through the substrate and measuring the electric conductibility of the solution obtained. More higher the conductibility is larger is the quantity of manure which was not consumed. This is the "pour through" method. You can find  Here more detail about this subject.


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## keithrs (Nov 27, 2012)

I fertilize @ <30 PPM N every watering(daily) when plants are in growth. I have stopped for the winter(plus I'm out of K-Lite). The only thing I have seen is less coloring in the flowers in a few Catts. Maybe due to the low light levels in my back yard since the sun has moved!?!


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## gonewild (Nov 27, 2012)

keithrs said:


> I fertilize @ <30 PPM N every watering(daily) when plants are in growth. I have stopped for the winter(plus I'm out of K-Lite). The only thing I have seen is less coloring in the flowers in a few Catts. Maybe due to the low light levels in my back yard since the sun has moved!?!



Who moved the sun?


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## keithrs (Nov 27, 2012)

gonewild said:


> Who moved the sun?



God!


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## gonewild (Nov 27, 2012)

keithrs said:


> God!



He has expanded his duties? He used to just move the Earth!


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## keithrs (Nov 27, 2012)

gonewild said:


> He has expanded his duties? He used to just move the Earth!



:smitten: love ya!


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## abax (Nov 28, 2012)

Thank you for the explanation Brabantia. I think I understand the concept
a bit better now and will read the recommended material.


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## Leo Schordje (Nov 28, 2012)

Well I am about to begin my K-Lite trial. Have finally exhausted my last 25 pound bag of regular MSU. Only a half pound or so left, I will be on K-lite before Christmas. 

Yes, Rick is right, I am largely happy with MSU, but have noticed the 'stall' effect, especially when I tried to push plants into faster growth last spring by going up to 120 ppm N MSU every watering vs my usual 50 to 72 ppm N dose rate. But for those that are not sure about K-Lite, I really don't recommend going backward to the old 20-20-20 style formulas. 

In my opinion

0-20-0 'Blossom Booster" is a formula incompatible with life. Bad, bad, bad for orchids, its even bad for vegetables growing in the ground these days where we have the "Clean Air Act" and some pollution controls on our industries. The low nitrogen & high phosphorous is a hangover from 19th century gardening practices in London, when all heat for homes and industry was from coal. The acid rain from the coal smog provided English vegetable gardens with all the nitrogen they needed. London smog is where the adage about using high phosphorous in autumn comes from. As people started the autumn heating season, firing up their coal burning home heating plants or stoves for cooking. The coal smoke began precipitating nitrogen in the form of acid rain and acid fog on the vegetable gardens. The smog provided all the nitrogen the vegetables needed. The science was good for its day, but it is good practice that is viable only where you have a choking dense heavy smog, laden with lots of nitrous oxides. Today high phosphorous would only work well for outdoor vegetable gardens in Beijing, or other cities when their smog is bad. If you are not under a smog & ozone alert, don't use a high phosphorous fertilizer indoors or out. An acceptable use of high phosphorous fertilizer is when you are making your own complete formulation, if you add the other components in the ratios the plants actually use. 

10-10-10 or 20-20-20 is a continuation of old 19th century chemistry for outdoor gardens, essentially left overs from the dark ages. If you notice, in gardening books, the tendency is to repeat and repeat the old, out of date recommendations, rather than to read and report any of the 20th century science of of the agricultural land grant universities. (Yes, the science behind the original MSU is SO last century, 20th century) 10-10-10 is 19th century. 

The 30-10-10 is getting a little better, Stern's Mira-Acid was an even better formulation. I used these for many a year when they were the best thing going for the home retail market. 

Somewhere in my time with 30-10-10 I began trying a continuous feeding program. I figure I like to eat every day, the plants want nutrients continuously available for better growth too. Key was to get concentrations right. That didn't happen right away. 

The Dyna Grow high nitrogen plus micro nutrient formulations were a nice improvement over the old 30-10-10. Here you actually had some 20th century science. Got my first CCM/AOS and first 2 flower quality awards on plants while using Dyna-Grow products. My program then was continuous feeding, somewhere near 75 ppm, more or less. I forget details now. 

Finally MSU has given me the best performance of all the fertilizers I have used to date. Once I started with MSU in the middle 1990's, I finally felt I had good enough growth that I didn't have to keep switching things up. One product was all I needed. I pitched all the other old fertilizers and haven't looked back. Got my second CCM/AOS and several more flower quality awards. By the way, for you bonsai growers, my pines and junipers in completely inorganic soils have developed the best color I ever had, nice healthy blue-green, and vibrant green in the trees that are not naturally glaucous. Good color in my azalea and flowering quinces too. they all get the same continuous feeding too. 

Now I am trying the K-Lite formula. I hope this will give me slightly better performance, especially when I want to force a little faster growth out of my plants. I won't be pushing the whole collection, just a flat or two of seedlings. I am hoping a couple of my problem species will pick up and perform better with K-Lite at the 70 ppm continuous feed program. I would love to get my Ray Rands sourced, wild collected Paph mohrianum to hold on to a back growth. I need it to get strong enough to set seed on. Also I would like my micranthum to speed up a little. So I am looking for the incremental improvement, I don't expect miracles. But I am excited to try K-Lite.

I will with my trial decide how to handle the calcarious loving species where I added oystershell and or horticultural limestone. I will go with one or the other of Rick's suggestions, either phase out the limestone & oystershell, maybe revive the old RO system, or use tap water and add a little ammonium nitrate to the K-Lite. I got a week or two to kick it around, maybe work out the details in a new thread.


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## Rick (Nov 28, 2012)

This is pretty exciting Leo. Since you are using MSU and ultimately Klite in a high Ca and alkalinity system.

Just for encouragement I have 2 mastersianum seedlings in spike that are less than 3 years out of flask (I'll double check, but I don't think I'm far off). Masters' are pretty closely related to mohrianum, so I'd be confident this could help.

I'm also getting nice clumping on a P. cililare, and noticed two or 3 low bracts poking up on it.

For continuous feed you may consider what Keither's is doing at roughly 30-50ppm N. Which is about the rate I'm using on my weekly feed.

Looking up my TM records those mastersianum came out of flask 3/29/10, so if blooms open by Christmas then only 2,3/4 years out of flask to blooming.


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## SlipperFan (Nov 28, 2012)

That was an interesting survey of fertilizer history, Leo. I wonder if you or someone could address the adage "Weakly weekly" in that light. My unscientific opinion is that it doesn't hold for contemporary fertilizers like MSU or K-lite, and that the recommended doses should be a fairly good guideline for application.


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## Rick (Nov 28, 2012)

SlipperFan said:


> I wonder if you or someone could address the adage "Weakly weekly" in that light. My unscientific opinion is that it doesn't hold for contemporary fertilizers like MSU or K-lite, and that the recommended doses should be a fairly good guideline for application.



From the poking around in looking at the development of the contemporary fertilizers, "weakly weekly" is a pragmatic adaptation to the observation that standard heavy doses of basic balanced fertilizers were killing orchids. Going back into the history of horticulture, plant "feeding" was started for the development of food crops, with the goal to produce the most high calorie edible product in the least amount of time. 

Food crops are highly selected domesticated species. Generational time is about 1 year compared to 5-10 years for orchids (if you push). The priority to maximize food production is way beyond the need to maximize production of ornamental crops. So plant research and nutrition in the food crop area is light years ahead of ornamental plant research. Then if you look into things like nutrient flux in rain forests, no body got serious about that till the 1950's when the worlds population wanted to replace all the rainforests with farms (still the priority on food crops).

Before MSU, orchid growers were adapting applications for more common indoor/outdoor ornamentals, which were adapted from crop production feeding regimes. And by observation, figured out that orchids just can't keep up with corn. These observations (complaints) are just about the same ones I brought up when thinking of K lite, but more frequent, obvious, and severe. Weakly weekly was how orchid people with the "difficult plants" got them to hold up.

MSU formula was really cutting edge by looking at leaf tissue data for direct application to ornamental plant requirements. But it came out of the culture of the annual cut flower world and greenhouse/hybrid orchid venue. Still a fair amount of genetic selection involved, and a push for fast growth return.

K lite just takes this a notch farther by leaning more on species data, in situ jungle leaf tissue data, and physiology data from epiphytic species.


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## Leo Schordje (Nov 29, 2012)

Thanks Rick. Just so it is here, could your go over briefly what I should be doing if I use city water, at roughly 225 to 250 ppm TDS assume 175 or so ppm as Calcium Carbonate? 

If you think I should add a little ammonium to the continuous fertilizing K-Lite regime while using city water, how would household ammonia from the local grocery store work as a source of ammonium ions? Since I want to max out at about 70 ppm N, and the bulk will be from the K-Lite, would it be a good alternative source. What do you think. Or should I find a source of ammonium nitrate. I no longer work at a Chem Manufacturer, so getting shipped to me might be a problem. (Homeland Insecurity, etc) For those that don't know, ammonium nitrate can be used in primitive home made explosives. 



SlipperFan said:


> That was an interesting survey of fertilizer history, Leo. I wonder if you or someone could address the adage "Weakly weekly" in that light. My unscientific opinion is that it doesn't hold for contemporary fertilizers like MSU or K-lite, and that the recommended doses should be a fairly good guideline for application.



Hi Dot, 
Rick is dead on, weakly weekly, with clear water in between was a work around for my orchids. I forgot where I first heard it, definitely the low dose, 1/8 to 1/4 teaspoon per gallon for a 30-10-10 fertilizer was to compensate for the damage the excess phosphorous and potassium was doing to the plants. But it is weakly weekly that inspired my first forays into continuous feeding. One merged with the other.


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## Stone (Nov 29, 2012)

Leo Schordje said:


> > to compensate for the damage the excess phosphorous and potassium was doing to the plants.
> 
> 
> I see no evidence of standard potassium levels damaging my orchids. Where is the damage? What should I be looking for? I'm using 16-4-9 or something like that on everything and so far I've never had better growth and flowering. It still seems to me that as long as there are no gross imbalances, that Ca is higher than Mg and that K is not too high during the growth season and the overall level of nutrients is low to very low, the plants find what they need regardless of what we do. Don't get the idea that K is evil, on the contrary, it can have many positives. For instance, a dose of K along with reducing N during the slow-down period in the fall/winter will help ''toughen'' plants up for the cold season. In fact I'm almost certain that giving your plants a very low K diet along with a mainly inert media with very low CEC will eventually lead to trouble. It has to! IMO k-lite should be used only with media containing lots of moss or chc or peat. ONLY MY opinion!! CEC of bark is pretty low until it starts to humify by which time we usually throw it out.


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## The Mutant (Nov 29, 2012)

Rick said:


> After figuring out your units for conductivity, this water is soflt and low salt. Adding sodium hydroxide (caustic) is a fast way to raise pH, but my be pushing the alkalinity up. Try letting the water stand or aerate with an aquarium pump for a day or so and see if the pH drops.
> 
> You shouldn't need to add the crushed oyster shell or other lime products when using K lite.
> 
> Given the very short time frames over which you are seeing problems, I think you have something more fundamental in your culture going on. Temp fluctuations, low humidity, and/or lighting limitations.


I've tried to see if I can find any testing kits for water quality here in Sweden, but no luck so far. I have, however, found some on amazon.uk, I hope they deliver to Sweden.

Oh, I didn't know that, no crushed oyster shell, that's good. One thing less to think about. 

I always let the water stand at least 24 hours before using it. Problem is, I can only do this with 2 liters at a time, so that water always go to the species I figure are more sensitive (my Phrag, my violascens, etc.). BUT, this is important, I have found out where to get RO-water! So I'm going to buy as much as I can afford to and start mixing it with my tap water. This should help a bit I hope.

Yes, I think you're right, and that it's some sort of lighting limitation and humidity issue. I'll see what me and my wallet can do to ease the problems some. I don't know which of the problems to address first though, light or humidity?

Again, thank you so very much for your help and thoughts. It means a lot to me.


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## Ray (Nov 29, 2012)

Just a comment or two on "recommended" rates of application:

► Dave Neal, president of Dyna-Gro (or was; I haven't spoken to him in years) was a big believer in very dilute application of fertilizer. He once told me that he thought it encouraged the plants to grow more roots in an effort to find more nutrition. I went with about 30 ppm N of his "Grow" formula (7-9-5) at his recommendation for about 10 years, and was quite happy.

► A few months ago, in a discussion with Bill Argo, he brought up the 125 ppm N level they used in the MSU study, and said "You know how we came up with that? We tried it and it worked. No scientific thinking or any analysis was used.", and he acknowledged that it may be "great" or "way off" of the true needs of the plants. That 125 ppm N is the recommended level I list on the labels when I repackage the stuff, but it's stronger than I use.

► I just reordered some product from Bill, and he and I had a fairly lengthy chat about plant nutrition, mostly so I could update him on what we've observed - or had not observed, like deficiencies, which may be even more important. My take is that he thinks we might be in for a rude awakening some day in the future, but he acknowledged that nobody really knows what goes on within the plant when it comes to nutritional formulas and uptake. Analytical techniques have improved and may help with that, but plant tissue analyses and sampling of the environment only paint a very limited picture, so to me, experimentation like we're doing is the way to go.


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## Rick (Nov 29, 2012)

Stone said:


> Leo Schordje said:
> 
> 
> > I must say that I see NO evidence of standard potassium levels damaging my orchids. I'm using 16-4-9 or something like that on everything and so far I've never had better growth, leaf colour and flowering.
> ...


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## Rick (Nov 29, 2012)

Stone said:


> Leo Schordje said:
> 
> 
> > In fact I'm almost certain that giving your plants a very low K diet along with a mainly inert media with very low CEC will eventually lead to trouble. It has to!
> ...


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## keithrs (Nov 29, 2012)

I agree that one is not going to starve their plants but that's not to say that will not see deficiencies at some point. We may see no deficiencies at all.


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## Ray (Nov 29, 2012)

The jury is still out in my mind, too.


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## keithrs (Nov 29, 2012)

I'm wondering how many of us are using kelp? I'm wondering if the person in FL is using it also? Being that it supplies some where in the realm of 70 vitamins and nutrients. Could be masking deficiencies in the k-lite program? 

I'm probably the only one using fulvic acid and on the rare occasion humic acid. 

I think if where going to see any true deficiency in the plants its going to be in the spring. (At least for the ones getting a winter rest) No fertilizer for 4-5 months then spring growth kicks in......Will see.....


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## Rick (Nov 29, 2012)

keithrs said:


> I agree that one is not going to starve their plants but that's not to say that will not see deficiencies at some point. We may see no deficiencies at all.



However, these wouldn't be deficiencies caused by lack of resource as opposed to antagonistic deficiences caused by excess of a resource.


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## Rick (Nov 29, 2012)

keithrs said:


> Being that it supplies some where in the realm of 70 vitamins and nutrients. Could be masking deficiencies in the k-lite program?



Micro nutrients. Of which most of the important inorganic materials are in MSU or K lite.

I believe lots of users of either MSU or K lite are not using kelp so not benifiting from the organic micro nutrients or vitamins.


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## Rick (Nov 29, 2012)

keithrs said:


> I'm wondering how many of us are using kelp? I'm wondering if the person in FL is using it also? Being that it supplies some where in the realm of 70 vitamins and nutrients. Could be masking deficiencies in the k-lite program?
> 
> I'm probably the only one using fulvic acid and on the rare occasion humic acid.
> 
> I think if where going to see any true deficiency in the plants its going to be in the spring. (At least for the ones getting a winter rest) No fertilizer for 4-5 months then spring growth kicks in......Will see.....



If you remember one of the threads started by Chris in Florida, with his terrarium system. He doesn't fertilize/supplement at all and posted rainfall data (going back to natural levels of nutrient availability) indicating that deficiences from lack of fertilizing are really a fantasy.

Perenial plants growing in the wild do just fine at nutrient levels a fraction of what we pour on our plants. I never fertilize the plants/trees/ shrubs on my property nor the woods across the street (which I don't water either). And they seem to do just fine without truckloads of fertilizer being dumped on them.


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## Stone (Nov 29, 2012)

Rick said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > > What is a "standard" potassium level Mike?
> ...


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## Rick (Nov 29, 2012)

Stone said:


> Rick said:
> 
> 
> > Stone said:
> ...


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## Rick (Nov 29, 2012)

Stone said:


> Rick said:
> 
> 
> > Stone said:
> ...


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## Rick (Nov 29, 2012)

Stone said:


> Rick said:
> 
> 
> > Stone said:
> ...


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## keithrs (Nov 30, 2012)

Rick said:


> However, these wouldn't be deficiencies caused by lack of resource as opposed to antagonistic deficiences caused by excess of a resource.



Not sure what you mean by antagonistic deficiencies!?!


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## keithrs (Nov 30, 2012)

Rick said:


> If you remember one of the threads started by Chris in Florida, with his terrarium system. He doesn't fertilize/supplement at all and posted rainfall data (going back to natural levels of nutrient availability) indicating that deficiences from lack of fertilizing are really a fantasy.


What are deficiencies from then? 

I thought Chris just bought some MSU? I could be wrong.....



> Perenial plants growing in the wild do just fine at nutrient levels a fraction of what we pour on our plants. I never fertilize the plants/trees/ shrubs on my property nor the woods across the street (which I don't water either). And they seem to do just fine without truckloads of fertilizer being dumped on them.



Trees and shrubs are far different than orchids.... They have relations with fungi, nematode and other things that break down the leaf litter to use as food and massive reserves. Take away those relation and see how long they live for. Orchids(slippers) have adapted to using broken down leaf litter for feed but there most be a constant supply for the plant to have any chance at surviving.


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## Rick (Nov 30, 2012)

keithrs said:


> Not sure what you mean by antagonistic deficiencies!?!



When you have too much of one chemical it blocks the plants ability to uptake or metabolically utilize another one.

In this case excess K causes what appears to be deficiencies of N, P, Ca, Mg.

I will post the lnk again to the ANTEC site with the table of deficiency/antagonism symptoms.


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## Rick (Nov 30, 2012)

keithrs said:


> Trees and shrubs are far different than orchids.... They have relations with fungi, nematode and other things that break down the leaf litter to use as food and massive reserves. Take away those relation and see how long they live for. Orchids(slippers) have adapted to using broken down leaf litter for feed but there most be a constant supply for the plant to have any chance at surviving.



Many of these same relationships can and do develop in pots. Also epyphitic and cliff dwelling species live with very limited access to reserves of leaf litter.

I found a study that concluded that less than 1% of rainforrest leaf fall is actually retained in the trees.

This is totally different for the ant obligate species, but they do not comprise the majority of orchid species.


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## Rick (Nov 30, 2012)

http://www.ladyslipper.com/minnut.htm

Scroll down to just about the bottom of the page to the table on deficiencies and excess.

Even though this is written with respect to orchids, I've seen similar tables in general agri litterature for food crops.


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## Linus_Cello (Nov 30, 2012)

keithrs said:


> I'm wondering how many of us are using kelp? I'm wondering if the person in FL is using it also? Being that it supplies some where in the realm of 70 vitamins and nutrients. Could be masking deficiencies in the k-lite program?



I asked this question to Ray on another thread:
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27783&page=2

My impression from his answer is there is no conflict as kelp has auxins, not nutrients.


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## Rick (Nov 30, 2012)

Linus_Cello said:


> I asked this question to Ray on another thread:
> http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27783&page=2
> 
> My impression from his answer is there is no conflict as kelp has auxins, not nutrients.



Kelp has a ton of other organic materials that are great at chelating metals (including Ca, Mg, Na, K, besides the trace metals). Chelation helps metals stay soluble and move them into biological systems. It also includes many of the same trace metals as in the MSU and K lite product.

So its not a simple answer to Keither's question based on knowledge of what the known ingredients are. The only good way to answer this is testing with and without kelp extract.

I know several folk using a reduced K / boosted Ca-Mg system that are not using kelp and not experiencing trouble.


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## keithrs (Nov 30, 2012)

The kelp product I use has an NPK of .1-1-1.2. No other elements are list on the label.


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## Rick (Nov 30, 2012)

keithrs said:


> Not sure what you mean by antagonistic deficiencies!?!



See if you can access this article.

http://jcsp.org.pk/index.php/jcsp/article/view/1047/667


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## Stone (Nov 30, 2012)

Rick said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > Rick said:
> ...


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## Stone (Nov 30, 2012)

Rick said:


> > I have a compot of callosum seedlings that are in a leaf litter mix.  They are growing great for about a year now, and I haven't fertilized them at all (just straight low EC water). I also potted up a blooming size Liparis in the same leaf litter media, and its putting up all kinds of new growth over the last year. Also no fert at all.
> 
> 
> No fert is ok for a whlie but if you feed up a plant with N and stimulate growth it will also need everything else to go along with the N including K. the more cells manufactured the more K required. There always must be the right balance of all the elements. I just wonder if K lite will provide enough K for plants which don't have access to held cations like your plants on cork. But if you say they're doing well I guess it may be...


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## Stone (Nov 30, 2012)

Rick said:


> > Perenial plants growing in the wild do just fine at nutrient levels a fraction of what we pour on our plants. I never fertilize the plants/trees/ shrubs on my property nor the woods across the street (which I don't water either). And they seem to do just fine without truckloads of fertilizer being dumped on them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Ray (Dec 5, 2012)

Stone said:


> Rick said:
> 
> 
> > Yes but there's a difference. Plants in the ground have unlimited scope to run their roots looking for what they need and also as nutrients become depleted from colloids (humus AND clay) they attract more from thier neighbours, water etc so the level of nurtients in a natural system should remain consant.
> ...


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## Rick (Dec 5, 2012)

Ray said:


> Correctamundo!
> 
> It's the clays and humus that give soils their cation exchange capacity, which is orders-of-magnitude greater than that in any orchid potting medium.
> 
> As those cations are taken into solution and absorbed by the plants, the CEC sites replenish themselves from the soil minerology. Even if orchid media HAD a lot of potential exchange sites, the only "minerology" available is what we add, and it's a lot more finite of a supply.



However, when you look at the amount (per unit area) of leaf litter and soil nutrients they still don't compare to the amount of nutrients we pour onto our plants during routine "feeding"......except in a cornfield.

When you look at soil conductivity in the forrest versus in a pot you can often get much high levels of TDS (from fertilizer) buildup in pots. Yes you have a more finite supply of exchangable sites in a pot, but we seem to be able to overload them much easier in pots than in the forest.

The forest plants don't use nutrients any faster than a potted orchid, so if we can accumulate salts in a pot (as evidence by conductivity measurement) then by reason forest systems just cycle on much less nutrient/unit space then in our artificial space.


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## Rick (Dec 5, 2012)

It's the clays and humus that give soils their cation exchange capacity, which is orders-of-magnitude greater than that in any orchid potting medium.

As those cations are taken into solution and absorbed by the plants, the CEC sites replenish themselves from the soil minerology. Even if orchid media HAD a lot of potential exchange sites, the only "minerology" available is what we add, and it's a lot more finite of a supply.[/QUOTE]

However, when you look at the amount (per unit area) of leaf litter and soil nutrients they still don't compare to the amount of nutrients we pour onto our plants during routine "feeding"......except in a cornfield.

When you look at soil conductivity in the forrest versus in a pot you can often get much high levels of TDS (from fertilizer) buildup in pots. Yes you have a more finite supply of exchangable sites in a pot, but we seem to be able to overload them much easier in pots than in the forest.

The forest plants don't use nutrients any faster than a potted orchid, so if we can accumulate salts in a pot (as evidence by conductivity measurement) then by reason forest systems just cycle on much less nutrient/unit space then in our artificial space.


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## gonewild (Dec 5, 2012)

Rick said:


> Ray said:
> 
> 
> > However, when you look at the amount (per unit area) of leaf litter and soil nutrients they still don't compare to the amount of nutrients we pour onto our plants during routine "feeding"......except in a cornfield.
> ...


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## Rick (Dec 5, 2012)

gonewild said:


> Rick said:
> 
> 
> > These minute clay particles may contribute a lot to ionic exchange of orchid roots. Or maybe not, but it should be considered.
> ...


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## Rick (Dec 5, 2012)

OK

I went and got some forest soil from the 'reforested' area in my front yard.

About 15 years ago it was lawn (sort of) under mature scarlet and white oak. We covered it up with big sheets of cardboard and buried the cardboard in about 4 inches of hardwood mulch. Since then we've never removed the annual leaf drop, and never watered (except when adding a new tree or plant). The cardboard and remnants of the original mulch are long gone, and the leaves self compost each year, so presently there was only a 3" layer of this years leaves with soil underneath.

I added just enough RO water to get the air out, and been soaking for 3 hours now. Conductivity has not got above 150uS/cm.

In comparison I had pre flush moss baskets set up less than 2 years that had climbed to 600 uS/cm. That pot of hydroton balls (clay balls) with my Phrag. caricinum got up to 600+, and since I've been flushing the crap out of it for the last few months, it still leaches out water that clears 200 uS/cm.


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## cnycharles (Dec 5, 2012)

so, quality in the forest is more important than quantity (for those here who may not be scientifically inclined but are curious), in a broad sense.


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## keithrs (Dec 6, 2012)

Rick said:


> OK
> 
> I went and got some forest soil from the 'reforested' area in my front yard.
> 
> ...



Why test EC? Thought EC test saltinty?


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## Ray (Dec 7, 2012)

EC tests electrical conductivity, which results from the presence of ANY ionic species in the solution.

The conductivity level is related to three things: the charge(s) on those ions, the concentration of them, and their mobility. A little bit of a classic inorganic salt like NaCl will result in the same conductivity level as a relatively larger amount of something like limestone, but they both contribute to the conductivity of the solution.


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## keithrs (Dec 7, 2012)

The reason I ask(as explained to Rick) having zero scientific backround is that I was once told by a rep. for Earth Juice is that you can not test organic compounds/fertilizers with EC.


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## Rick (Dec 7, 2012)

http://www.uky.edu/Ag/Horticulture/anderson/orgfert1.pdf

This article shows that organic ferts have EC too.


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## Ray (Dec 7, 2012)

keithrs said:


> ...I was once told by a rep. for Earth Juice is that you can not test organic compounds/fertilizers with EC.


Be careful accepting info from some reps - many have no technical background whatsoever, repeating what they "think" they heard or read, without considering the validity of it. 



Posted using Tapatalk


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## keithrs (Dec 7, 2012)

Interesting....


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## Rick (Dec 7, 2012)

Rick said:


> http://www.uky.edu/Ag/Horticulture/anderson/orgfert1.pdf
> 
> This article shows that organic ferts have EC too.



I don't know if any of you checked this article out, but thought the analysis of two different kelp products was striking.

"Algamin" liquid 0.2 - 0.0 - 0.4 Ca = 0.46, Mg = 0.62

"Ohrstom's Garden Maxicrop" (powder) 1.0 - 0.0 - 4.0 Ca = 0.66
Mg = 0.24

In both cases, phosphorus is very low (there is some on actual analysis), and K is higher than N. But in Algamin, Ca and Mg are higher than K, but this is reversed in Maxicrop.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jan 14, 2013)

OK.....now after almost a year and a half of using K-lite, I think I have finally noticed some patterns. First- if plants are going downhill, or about to go downhill, K-lite is no panacea. It has not saved any plants in poor condition.
Second- plants that are doing well continue to do well, and in fact, seem to do better. That for me is the important part. I try to repot more or less yearly, and this is the time of year that I do most repotting. Normally, repotting reveals a number of paphs that I thought were doing well, but turn out to be rootless or on their way to being rootless. This is not happening as much, if at all. Plants are turning out to have healthy or growing roots at a much greater rate. I still don't get heavy, extensive root systems on paphs, but these are good, healthy systems, about as good as my paphs usually get. So....I'm definitely glad I switched over.


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## abax (Jan 15, 2013)

Since I don't really understand the chemistry, I'll simply state that I pot
all my Paphs. in Orchiata and have been using K-Lite for more than six
months. ALL my Paphs. are doing very well, several one growth plants
are in bud or blooming and I haven't lost a single plant and have actually
saved a few trade plants in bad shape when I received them. In addition to the Paphs., I'm using K-Lite on Phals. and various other plants in my
greenhouse including a lime tree and all have improved...better roots,
better foliage, better color. I'm well pleased with K-Lite and I thought my plants looked good before using it. They look GREAT now.

BTW, good on you Ray.


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## Brabantia (Jan 15, 2013)

@ Eric M and abax: have you used the seaweeds extract (Kelpack) together with K-Lite and do you have used seaweeds extract before the use of K-Lite.


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## Ray (Jan 15, 2013)

Rick said:


> I don't know if any of you checked this article out, but thought the analysis of two different kelp products was striking.
> 
> "Algamin" liquid 0.2 - 0.0 - 0.4 Ca = 0.46, Mg = 0.62
> 
> ...



And in the case of KelpMax, it's a 0-0-1.


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## Rick (Jan 15, 2013)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> OK.....now after almost a year and a half of using K-lite, I think I have finally noticed some patterns. First- if plants are going downhill, or about to go downhill, K-lite is no panacea. It has not saved any plants in poor condition.
> Second- plants that are doing well continue to do well, and in fact, seem to do better. That for me is the important part. I try to repot more or less yearly, and this is the time of year that I do most repotting. Normally, repotting reveals a number of paphs that I thought were doing well, but turn out to be rootless or on their way to being rootless. This is not happening as much, if at all. Plants are turning out to have healthy or growing roots at a much greater rate. I still don't get heavy, extensive root systems on paphs, but these are good, healthy systems, about as good as my paphs usually get. So....I'm definitely glad I switched over.



Eric

I'm glad you are seeing some good signs with your plants. What rate (dose and frequency) are you feeding at?

Also did you ever pick up a soil probe TDS meter to see what pot conditions were doing? I turned around a lot of poor doers by spending more time (and water) just flushing out high TDS pots that had accumulated a bunch of K from all the previous MSU feeding.


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## Ray (Jan 15, 2013)

I'll throw my two cents in...

I would not expect any fertilizer to help save a plant - unless it was starving - any more than I would expect filling up the gas tank to fix a broken-down car.

The first Greencare-produced batch of K-Lite came in to me in late November/early December of 2011, and I have been using it exclusively since then. For 4 months, I was applying it at 125 ppm N, but then dropped it to 50. I apply KelpMax at 256:1 irregularly, every 4 to 6 weeks, manually with a hose end sprayer. I would be more regular, but having two full-time jobs SUCKS. I have not applied it since September, due only to my crazy schedule.

My paphs are growing significantly larger, the blossoms are easily 10% bigger on most of them, and in several cases, bigger. Plants are producing more leads, although that tends to happen with more mature plants anyway, so I don't know how much of that I can even casually attribute to the feeding regimen.

I am seeing great growth on other genera, as well. My cymbidiums have more blossoms per spike than I have ever seen, and some seedling onciidinae types are throwing up really big spikes.


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## gonewild (Jan 15, 2013)

Ray said:


> I'll throw my two cents in...
> 
> I would not expect any fertilizer to help save a plant - unless it was starving - any more than I would expect filling up the gas tank to fix a broken-down car.



Well said.
Without healthy roots plants can't take up nutrients no matter what formula of fertilizer is used.


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## Rick (Jan 15, 2013)

Ray said:


> I'll throw my two cents in...
> 
> I would not expect any fertilizer to help save a plant - unless it was starving -



In some ways having high K around was technically "starving" plants of Ca and Mg.

So I would say it was possible to turn bad plants around. It depends on how bad and how bad the potting mix was.

Without roots its definitely a steep uphill battle to bring them back, but I did have that happen. Back before K lite came out, and I was working with the MSU work around, I also used doses of epsom salts to help overcome the K induced deficiencies. Mg (unlike Ca) is easily moved through a plant, even with poor roots.

Once the plant was "unlocked", having a low salt potting mix around was critical as the plant would try to generate new roots. There was a time lag between when I did this by guesswork, and when I got the conductivity meter to give me actual data to work by.

But yes I have crappy plants turning around.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jan 15, 2013)

One of these days I'll get a TDS meter...I really should. I hate math, so I simply use 1 tspn/gal for Vandas, Catts, strap leaf paphs, hybrid and large sized phrags. 1/2 tspn/gal for the rest of my paphs, Phrags besseae and schlimii, pleurothallids. Under lights plants get it every 2nd watering, window plants get it seasonally...every 2 weeks now, weekly in spring/summer (none for some of my species cool growing paphs until Feb.) I've never tried kelp or seaweed extract. To be honest, I can't afford that many extras. I've been skimping on potting materials as it is. I really need to make a big orchiata and sponge bark order. I also use too much ebay (damn! why do I have to win? I think I'm being cheap and I'm sure I'll lose....) My kids have to find work and get rich.....


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## abax (Jan 16, 2013)

No, I don't overload my plants with additives. I use K-Lite exclusively at
1/4 tsp. per gallon once a week in the summer and whenever I have a sunny day or two right now (which isn't often). I agree with TN Rick that
many of us often fertilize waaaay too much and add whatever happens to
be the fad of the moment when unsuitable culture is the problem, not
nutritional needs.


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## Justin (Jan 16, 2013)

I am still using Rick's early MSU K-Lite workaround (MSU for pure water/Epsom Salts/Calcium Nitrate). Also have added a dilute kelp product. 

I also made the change to mix back in 50% tapwater with my R/O. This gets the water pre-fert to close to 100 ppm. With fert the ppm is approx. 250.

With these changes I have had no recurrence of rot in my collection. Have lost a few plants that were already going downhill but the whole collection has stabilized and is growing very well. New growths are very hard and strong, where I had been having a huge problem a year ago with new growths being very soft and rotting easily. I believe that issue was caused by mineral deficiency from using pure R/O for 5-6 years.

So with the above changes I have had a great turnaround in my collection.


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## wjs2nd (Jan 16, 2013)

I have been toying with the idea of adding tap water to my RO water. What kind of chemicals and additive do you need to worry about in tap water? I know you can sit tap water out for a day or two in the sun and gas-off some of them. 

I am going to get the water test from the city. Ray, do you have anything on your website to help me understand the meanings of these test numbers?


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## keithrs (Jan 16, 2013)

wjs2nd said:


> I have been toying with the idea of adding tap water to my RO water. What kind of chemicals and additive do you need to worry about in tap water? I know you can sit tap water out for a day or two in the sun and gas-off some of them.
> 
> I am going to get the water test from the city. Ray, do you have anything on your website to help me understand the meanings of these test numbers?



Chlorine and chloramine are the big one you want out. 
Chlorine will gas off faily quickly... And even faster if you airate it. But chloramine has to be removed via a carbon filter. 

You can get a 24" housing fairly cheap as well as the filters. I plumbed mine in outside before my tap. I also have a whole house carbon/ceramic filter.


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## wjs2nd (Jan 16, 2013)

So a carbon filter, like on a brita, will remove the chloramine? That is nice to know. Does it remove any important minerals though?


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## Rick (Jan 16, 2013)

wjs2nd said:


> So a carbon filter, like on a brita, will remove the chloramine? That is nice to know. Does it remove any important minerals though?



No major ions, but can remove some trace metals. But it all comes back with the fert if you are using MSU or K lite or kelp.

In tap water the only thing significant to take out is the chlorine/chloramine, and carbon is very effective for that.


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## wjs2nd (Jan 16, 2013)

So what does tap water have in it, that doesn't get removed, that RO water can not supply the plant. Hence, why add tap water?


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## Rick (Jan 16, 2013)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> I really need to make a big orchiata and sponge bark order....



I've never used orchiata, and since K-lite I'm getting good results (with barbata types!!) going back to CHC. This is especially the case since tracking pot TDS.

Also still getting great results in baskets with mixtures of gravel sand and sphagnum.

I know some folks are getting good results with the orchiata, but I don't think its neccesary if you cut feed way back and monitor pot conductivity.


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## Rick (Jan 16, 2013)

wjs2nd said:


> So what does tap water have in it, that doesn't get removed, that RO water can not supply the plant. Hence, why add tap water?



Calcium, Magnesium, Sodium, potassium, bicarbonate, sulfate, chloride, silicates.


It depends what part of the country you are in. The composition can vary a lot on a very local basis. In general though potassium higher than 4ppm is very rare compared to the other consitituents. Silicates can also be rare.

That's why at a minimum I like to get a Hardness, alkalinity, and conductivity value for the water to be used, to adjust how much to blend in to RO.


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## keithrs (Jan 16, 2013)

wjs2nd said:


> So what does tap water have in it, that doesn't get removed, that RO water can not supply the plant. Hence, why add tap water?



That would depend on the source of your tap water.... But in general you'll have some K,Ca,Mg,Fe, and other trace elements like aluminum and boron. 

The idea behind adding tap is mainly to...
1) Aid the plants with Ca/Mg and minor amount of other elements.
2) Add alkalinity to the water so your pH doesn't fluctuate as much when you add fertilizer.


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## keithrs (Jan 16, 2013)

Rick said:


> I know some folks are getting good results with the orchiata, but I don't think its neccesary if you cut feed way back and monitor pot conductivity.



I think the reason that folks are seeing good growth in orchiata is because the amounts of Ca/Mg in the bark makes it hard for those bacteria that cause problem to set up shop. And you get the benefits of slow release Ca/Mg. 

I do think orchiata is a great product just for its repot cycles. I love CHC also.


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## Rick (Jan 16, 2013)

keithrs said:


> And you get the benefits of slow release Ca/Mg.



I think this was especially true when folks were getting improved results before low K came out.

There were 2 directions for this to work.

1) Slow release Ca/Mg to offset fertilizer K going into the plant
2) High divalent cation content of the bark matrix preventing build up of monovalents (K and Na) in the bark. (i.e. inhibiting unfavorable cation exchange).

If one was a strict RO user, the only monovalent added would be K, which in unsupported bark matrices, a high buildup of monovalent salt ions is not only directly toxic to plants, but shifts soil pathogens into unfavorable populations.


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## Ray (Jan 16, 2013)

Just a quick note to advise that K-lite is back in stock.


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## Stone (Jan 16, 2013)

wjs2nd said:


> I have been toying with the idea of adding tap water to my RO water. What kind of chemicals and additive do you need to worry about in tap water? I know you can sit tap water out for a day or two in the sun and gas-off some of them.
> 
> I am going to get the water test from the city. Ray, do you have anything on your website to help me understand the meanings of these test numbers?



There's absolutely nothing wrong with straight rain or RO water as long as you provide for the plants' needs with fertilizer and keep tabs on pH of your media. (which is all pretty easy) Adding a dash of 50/50 lime/dolomite (1-3 grams/Lt of mix) every six months should make up for any carbonate shortfall.
And even that probably won't be needed if you use Calcium nitrate as you principle N source. All other elements will be provided for with your fertilizer progam. For all the ''unknowns'', use kelp occasionally. Iron seems to be the only one to really keep an eye on unless you add it as Ferrous sulphate to your bark berore potting in which case it will last for years.
I also like to add a sourse of silica (diatomite) I don't think there's much in the way of amorphous silica in most waters?


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## Rick (Jan 16, 2013)

All true, but you can do all the same by just adding some tap water and with every watering. To varying amounts (depending on local) everything you can add in solid form to the potting mix can be added from tap water already in soluble form from the tap.

Soluble silicates are present in varying amounts in tap water too, but varies drastically according to local.

If you consider orchids as epiphytes and orchids on the sides of cliffs, they rarely see anything as pure as collected rain water off of roofs and water out of RO machines.

I've got to look at lots of rainforest "throughfall" chemistry lately, and it's weak in ionic strength/makeup, but not 0 like RO.

And if you have a lot of mounted plants you have nowhere to add potting amendments.:wink:


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## wjs2nd (Jan 16, 2013)

Thanks for all the info everyone!

Rick, how would I know how much tap water to add? I'm going to goto my city hall and get the water readings/measurements. 

It is much easier for me to just add tap water. I'm going to switch from worm tea (which I do like) to kelp.


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## keithrs (Jan 16, 2013)

wjs2nd said:


> Thanks for all the info everyone!
> 
> Rick, how would I know how much tap water to add? I'm going to goto my city hall and get the water readings/measurements.
> 
> It is much easier for me to just add tap water. I'm going to switch from worm tea (which I do like) to kelp.



Kelp and worm teas are to different animals. You should add kelp to your worm tea!


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## Stone (Jan 16, 2013)

Rick said:


> All true, but you can do all the same by just adding some tap water and with every watering. To varying amounts (depending on local) everything you can add in solid form to the potting mix can be added from tap water already in soluble form from the tap.
> 
> Soluble silicates are present in varying amounts in tap water too, but varies drastically according to local.
> 
> ...



Also all true but beleive it or not, my rain water has a higher ec than my tap water. Probably from bird poop, dust and decomposed leaves falling into the tank. So I sometimes use tap water to dilute the rain water! (although its probably unnecessary) I've never used RO water but I did once use a carbon filter which removed the chlorine and flouride but left the carbonates.


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## Rick (Jan 17, 2013)

yes leaves have lots of nutrients in them.

Sounds like your rainwater is compost tea!


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## The Orchid Boy (Jan 18, 2013)

*How much K-lite (teaspoons) per gallon?*

This is a nice thread, I scanned through it all a few times. Sorry if this is a repeat. If it is maybe you could direct ne to the right page.

I know a lot or maybe everyone in this thread described how much fertlilizer they use by ppm. I justed ordered some K-lite from Ray and was wondering *how much K-lite per gallon to use? Like measurement in teaspoons or something?* I used my other 30-10-10 Grow-More at 1/4 stength. The package called for 1 tsp. per gallon, I used 1/4 tsp. per gallon. Not sure if this was enough, too much, or just right. I've always fertlized everything, paphs, phals, catts, ect. that are planted in different pots/mounts and mediums the same. *Should I change my fertlizing 'plan'?* I did water the phals in moss with more clear water and less fertilizer water though.


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## abax (Jan 19, 2013)

Since I'd rather under-fertilize a bit, I use 1/4 tsp. per gallon of K-Lite .
My orchids seem quite happy at that strength.


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## Ray (Jan 19, 2013)

The Orchid Boy said:


> This is a nice thread, I scanned through it all a few times. Sorry if this is a repeat. If it is maybe you could direct ne to the right page.
> 
> I know a lot or maybe everyone in this thread described how much fertlilizer they use by ppm. I justed ordered some K-lite from Ray and was wondering *how much K-lite per gallon to use? Like measurement in teaspoons or something?* I used my other 30-10-10 Grow-More at 1/4 stength. The package called for 1 tsp. per gallon, I used 1/4 tsp. per gallon. Not sure if this was enough, too much, or just right. I've always fertlized everything, paphs, phals, catts, ect. that are planted in different pots/mounts and mediums the same. *Should I change my fertlizing 'plan'?* I did water the phals in moss with more clear water and less fertilizer water though.



With ANY fertilizer, 8 divided by the %N on the label will give you the teaspoons per gallon for 100 ppm N. if you're shooting for 50 ppm N, as many of us are, divide 4 by the %N.

8/30 = 0.26667, so your quarter-teaspoon was close to 100 ppm N. K-Lite is a 12.9%N product, so for 50 ppm N, you'll need 4/12.9, or roughly 1/3 tsp/gal.


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## Ozpaph (Jan 19, 2013)

Stone said:


> Also all true but beleive it or not, my rain water has a higher ec than my tap water. Probably from bird poop, dust and decomposed leaves falling into the tank. So I sometimes use tap water to dilute the rain water! (although its probably unnecessary) I've never used RO water but I did once use a carbon filter which removed the chlorine and flouride but left the carbonates.



That's really odd. Is it a metallic tank or concrete? My rainwater (in the city straight of the roof. Mesh filter to keep the leaves out. Plastic tank.) has a tds of <30 but my tap water is about 300.


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## terryros (Jan 19, 2013)

If you like to work from a liquid stock solution, with a little help from Ray, I learned to make a 10% stock solution by weighing out 50 gm of K-Lite and adding RO into the flask to go to 500 gm. I use a nice, compact weighing device that wasn't overly expensive and comes in handy to weight other thing. This stock solution keeps very well for at least 2 weeks and probably longer. You use 15 mL per gallon of RO to create a final 50 ppm N solution.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## Rick (Jan 19, 2013)

Ozpaph said:


> That's really odd. Is it a metallic tank or concrete? My rainwater (in the city straight of the roof. Mesh filter to keep the leaves out. Plastic tank.) has a tds of <30 but my tap water is about 300.



That's probably about what 90% of the rest of us experience.

I only know of a handful of places in the US that has tap water with tds as low as rain water.


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## Ray (Jan 19, 2013)

Rick asked me for an update on how the distribution of K-Lite fertilizer was going, so I thought I'd share it here, as well:

To-date, I have shipped a total of 484 lbs (including my own consumption) to 95 people.

Distribution includes 30 US states (CA, CT, FL, GA, IA, ID, IL, IN, KY, LA, MA, MD, MI, MN, MO, NC, NE, NJ, NM, NY, OH, OK, OR, PA, RI, TN, TX, VA, WA, WI), 4 Canadian provinces (AB, BC, ON, QC), France, Israel, Italy, Japan, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, & Ukraine.


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## gonewild (Jan 19, 2013)

All the other locations already grow perfect orchids. :wink:


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## Rick (Jan 19, 2013)

gonewild said:


> All the other locations already grow perfect orchids. :wink:



Including the ones that never fertilize at all:wink::wink:


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## gonewild (Jan 19, 2013)

Rick said:


> Including the ones that never fertilize at all:wink::wink:



ity:


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## Ozpaph (Jan 20, 2013)

Rick said:


> That's probably about what 90% of the rest of us experience.
> 
> I only know of a handful of places in the US that has tap water with tds as low as rain water.



I thought he said his rain water was as high or higher than the stored rain water (where as mine differs by a factor of 10).


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## Rick (Jan 20, 2013)

wjs2nd said:


> Thanks for all the info everyone!
> 
> Rick, how would I know how much tap water to add? I'm going to goto my city hall and get the water readings/measurements.




I would look for a final Hardness of 20-40 ppm for your irrigation water. So if it you find that the tap water has a hardness of 100 then maybe try a 5:1 dilution.

Let me know what your tap water chemistry is and we'll play with it.


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