# LEGAL Paphiopedilum hangianum



## Pete (Jul 16, 2011)

the time is now folks. FINALLY. i have in my possession, papered, legal, documented, Paph. hangianum. the plants were deemed of legal (Chinese) origin, and legally imported to the united states in the past week, with all paperwork, including all CITES documents etc, being accepted. :rollhappy:


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## Wendelin (Jul 16, 2011)

He he, congratulations!!:clap:


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## Roth (Jul 16, 2011)

Good news at least. hangianum is a really important parent that was really missing in the US... (even if it is not a Chinese species by any means )

Do you have a photo of the plants by chance? Those are Holger plants I think.


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## Pete (Jul 16, 2011)

yes they are from holger. no photos.


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## quietaustralian (Jul 16, 2011)

Good luck to you, breed the $hit out of them. We may need some back in VN in the near future if they keep collecting them as they do.

I believe some other shipments made it to the US last year with papers but as they were commercial growers, I think they have kept quiet until they have produced more plants.

Regards, Mick


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## Pete (Jul 16, 2011)

ya i think there were numerous people who got plants on this go 'round.


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## Roth (Jul 16, 2011)

quietaustralian said:


> Good luck to you, breed the $hit out of them. We may need some back in VN in the near future if they keep collecting them as they do.
> 
> I believe some other shipments made it to the US last year with papers but as they were commercial growers, I think they have kept quiet until they have produced more plants.
> 
> Regards, Mick



In fact, most people just waited to get hangianum with CITES to legalize their stocks. That's where Holger has made a small mistake in terms of business... I did the same mistake with gigantifolium years ago, took the pain to get legal ones, sold very few, and I just legalized all the stocks worldwide, including the US newer ones, directly and indirectly. Holger will realize that in a few months, once he will have supplied legal plants to several countries, no one will buy those from him. Taiwan has really massive stocks of screened, several years cultivated hangianum that they sell for 3-4US blooming size. Get the stock imported under hybrid names from Taiwan, use Holger CITES, and that's a good deal. I am sad for him, because he is a nice guy.


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## NYEric (Jul 16, 2011)

"Your papers please!?" - _(Gestapo guard at the train station, The Great Escape)_


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## quietaustralian (Jul 16, 2011)

Roth said:


> In fact, most people just waited to get hangianum with CITES to legalize their stocks. That's where Holger has made a small mistake in terms of business... I did the same mistake with gigantifolium years ago, took the pain to get legal ones, sold very few, and I just legalized all the stocks worldwide, including the US newer ones, directly and indirectly. Holger will realize that in a few months, once he will have supplied legal plants to several countries, no one will buy those from him. Taiwan has really massive stocks of screened, several years cultivated hangianum that they sell for 3-4US blooming size. Get the stock imported under hybrid names from Taiwan, use Holger CITES, and that's a good deal. I am sad for him, because he is a nice guy.



Or, Maybe Holger is a nice guy and isn't a slave to the almighty dollar. :clap:

Mick


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## Brian Monk (Jul 16, 2011)

Woohoo!

"We're gonna need a bigger boat" -Jaws


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## tocarmar (Jul 16, 2011)

Its about time!! Now if we can just work on all the others that are still illegal (Cyps for example), than there we can get rid of CITES for good.... 

Just think of the money the US would save to close a branch of the Govt for good..


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## Rick (Jul 16, 2011)

tocarmar said:


> Its about time!! Now if we can just work on all the others that are still illegal (Cyps for example), than there we can get rid of CITES for good....
> 
> Just think of the money the US would save to close a branch of the Govt for good..



I guess if you are only concerned with slipper orchids.

You forgot about things like elephants, rhinos, sun bears, siberian tigers....goldenseal, ginseng........

The trade in illegal slipper orchids is pretty miniscule compared to the other things CITES regulates. And CITES is international, so I doubt that the US will drop out of the CITES world community for lack of having to dink around in orchids.


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## Rick (Jul 16, 2011)

Roth said:


> In fact, most people just waited to get hangianum with CITES to legalize their stocks. That's where Holger has made a small mistake in terms of business... I did the same mistake with gigantifolium years ago, took the pain to get legal ones, sold very few, and I just legalized all the stocks worldwide, including the US newer ones, directly and indirectly. Holger will realize that in a few months, once he will have supplied legal plants to several countries, no one will buy those from him. Taiwan has really massive stocks of screened, several years cultivated hangianum that they sell for 3-4US blooming size. Get the stock imported under hybrid names from Taiwan, use Holger CITES, and that's a good deal. I am sad for him, because he is a nice guy.



I've brought these economics before, but doubt that Taiwan can make any money in the hangianum pot plant market in the US for more than a year or so. I think the only big losers are the locals and indigenous who have just finished raping their own land and now have nothing to show for it except a big hole.


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## gonewild (Jul 16, 2011)

Rick said:


> I've brought these economics before, but doubt that Taiwan can make any money in the hangianum pot plant market in the US for more than a year or so. I think the only big losers are the locals and indigenous who have just finished raping their own land and now have nothing to show for it except a big hole.



But remember the locals and the indigenous don't see the big hole so they really aren't effected and they did get paid for their efforts to collect.


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## Rick (Jul 16, 2011)

gonewild said:


> But remember the locals and the indigenous don't see the big hole so they really aren't effected and they did get paid for their efforts to collect.



Well they won't get paid anymore (for hangianum anyway), and the big hole I'm referring to is usually a mine, oil operation, golf course, logging operation, or palm oil plantation. In Vietnam the coffee plantation is more popular than palm oil.


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## ehanes7612 (Jul 16, 2011)

soo, dont know exactly how to ask this...can anyone inquire about buying hangianum from this person (Holger)..if so do u know his contact info?


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## Rick (Jul 16, 2011)

ehanes7612 said:


> soo, dont know exactly how to ask this...can anyone inquire about buying hangianum from this person (Holger)..if so do u know his contact info?



Holger Perner is in China. As you can tell he is not Chinese but he has been working in orchids there for many years. Orchids Magazine has been publishing a series of his articles on Chinese Cyps where he is working with at a nature reserve, and I believe he is also partnering with a commercial/research operation for growing medicinal plants (including orchids). I believe that was also a fairly recent Orchids magazine article.

There was an email address he left in one of those articles which I corresponded with him about Chinese Cyp pollination (which he graciously replied too), but that was a couple of years ago, and I don't have it handy.

(I don't have the articles at my fingertips, so hope I paraphrased accurately).


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## Rick (Jul 16, 2011)

Pete said:


> the time is now folks. FINALLY. i have in my possession, papered, legal, documented, Paph. hangianum. the plants were deemed of legal (Chinese) origin, and legally imported to the united states in the past week, with all paperwork, including all CITES documents etc, being accepted. :rollhappy:




Pete did you get a wholesale lot of these? Or a small handful for breeding stock.


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## Howzat (Jul 16, 2011)

If anyone wants Dr. Holger Perner contact, here it is. I met him in Taiwan earlier this year. He certainly is a nice man with a nice chinese wife.
"Jinwan village, Pengzhen, Shuangliu county, Chengdu City, Sichuan 610203, China". Tel +86-28-85 85 98 05
EMail : [email protected].
He currently lists himself as Technical Director of Hengduan Mountains Biotechnology Ltd.
Probably he may have made good business contact with the Taiwanese counterpart.
He is one of the invited guest speaker at this year's WOC in Singapore, so there is a good chance I will meet him again.


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## John M (Jul 16, 2011)

Pete said:


> the time is now folks. FINALLY. i have in my possession, papered, legal, documented, Paph. hangianum. the plants were deemed of legal (Chinese) origin, and legally imported to the united states in the past week, with all paperwork, including all CITES documents etc, being accepted. :rollhappy:



Good for you Pete....it's about bloody time!:clap:


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## Pete (Jul 17, 2011)

Rick said:


> Pete did you get a wholesale lot of these? Or a small handful for breeding stock.



the later.


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## s1214215 (Jul 17, 2011)

I dont think you will see a slew of hangianum flask being imported from all sources. When I talked to Fisheries and Wildlife about it, they were very strict on the point that plants had to be verified as sourced from legitimate stock and that had been propagated.  Otherwise I would have been sending hangianum flasks to the USA ages back.

I will contact F&W again on the matter to ask for more info. 

I hope Holger makes some money out of it. He has put in the hard work, so he deserves it. It took him a lot to get these certified as legal plants out of China.

Brett


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## Roth (Jul 17, 2011)

s1214215 said:


> I dont think you will see a slew of hangianum flask being imported from all sources. When I talked to Fisheries and Wildlife about it, they were very strict on the point that plants had to be verified as sourced from legitimate stock and that had been propagated. Otherwise I would have been sending hangianum flasks to the USA ages back.
> 
> I will contact F&W again on the matter to ask for more info.
> 
> ...



It's not that... wild collected, established hangianum will be imported from many sources under complex hybrid names, than the invoice from Holger will be used to sell those plants very cheaply. That's the way the business has always been running for that kind of thing. 

Hangianum from seed is very costly, very slow growing. jungle, previously bloomed, cultivated plants cost less than 5USD in Taiwan. No one can make a blooming size hangianum for 5USD from seed in this world.

Anyway, anyone can have instant legitimate stock with one of Holger invoice, even for 3 plants. Imagine a Taiwanese nursery buying 5 legal hangianum with CITES. All of its flasks, plants, seedlings, species, hybrids, become legal after a few months. Exported to the USA, the F&W has to accept it, because the exporter bought 5 legal hangianum with CITES. Period. Same happened to me with the fucking gigantifolium. I imported legal plants with CITES, divided some of them, propagated some, sold some plants with CITES copies. Well, I sold 7 plants, to 3 people. Afterwards, gigantifolium from more, and more sources became legal, and now they are legal, but I sold 7 plants and made flasks that are worthless. I will NEVER grow a seedling to blooming size and sell it for 2USD a 2growth plant, no way.

Note, since thaianum can be exported legally from Thailand, massive quantities are being collected, like never before. That proves my point that when a species is legalized, it's not artificial propagation that follows most of the time, but green light for wild, cultivated plants, because they are cheaper than any propagated plant :evil:


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## s1214215 (Jul 17, 2011)

Sorry Xavier, I dont buy your $5 per seedling argument. It costs me 100 baht (US$3.50- min buy of 10 flasks) per flask over a year or two in Thailand. I have friends making paph flasks and have taken that long or more in the lab. Thailands not expensive to produce flasks.

Well yes you could buy Holgers flasks, but hey, surely F&W/USDA are not that dumb that they cant tell hangianum in flask cant be produced from flasked plants that fast... Um.. or are they? Lets see. Time will tell. I will wait for the USA hangianum glut and I will check if Thai CITES will let me send some.. Hey, if they will let me, great. Last time I mentioned Vietnamese species (hangianum, helenae) to them, they said no way.

Sorry, I also dont buy the legalisation means an easy CITES arguement. Some countries, perhaps. Others no. But then the USA reaction will tell at the recieveing end.

I sent Thaianum legally to Australia as mature plants last year and even though the plants were cultured from seed and certified, CITES Thailand nearly rejected them. I sent plants from the same batch to Japan and they got sent back. USDA refused non-flask plants 6 months later. 

Hmm for someone based in Vietnam you seem to know a lot about thaianum trafficking here. Sorry, I dont believe you. I see wild markets weekly (no not just Jatujak) and know enough people who will say your story is bull

Brett


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## Rick (Jul 17, 2011)

John M said:


> Good for you Pete....it's about bloody time!:clap:



Pete's a good grower too, and they'll be blooming and breeding in no time.

I expect the shift in legal hangianum will be much faster than for kovachii since they have been worked over culturally for more years and in much greater numbers.

They'll be as easy to get as emersonii in short order. (And then emersonii will probably disappear from cultivation.oke:oke Kind of like the way parishii and dianthum trade off on availability.


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## s1214215 (Jul 17, 2011)

Good luck Pete.. I wish you well and I hope to see hangianum freely available to people in the USA before long.

Brett


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## Roth (Jul 17, 2011)

s1214215 said:


> Sorry Xavier, I dont buy your $5 per seedling argument. It costs me 100 baht (US$3.50- min buy of 10 flasks) per flask over a year or two in Thailand. I have friends making paph flasks and have taken that long or more in the lab. Thailands not expensive to produce flasks.
> 
> Well yes you could buy Holgers flasks, but hey, surely F&W/USDA are not that dumb that they cant tell hangianum in flask cant be produced from flasked plants that fast... Um.. or are they? Lets see. Time will tell. I will wait for the USA hangianum glut and I will check if Thai CITES will let me send some.. Hey, if they will let me, great. Last time I mentioned Vietnamese species (hangianum, helenae) to them, they said no way.
> 
> ...



Actually the flask price is about 70thb. Add to that about 5 years growing for Hangianum from flask, risk of losses, and a percentage of the seedlings from flask will not grow fast. So the price per plant will approx 5USD, after 7 years - 6 months to make seeds from a blooming plant, a year and a half to make seedlings in flask, 5 years to get plants in bloom. OR get precultivated hangianum from Taiwan, 2 years out of the wild, it costs 5USD, and they are available right now with nice leaves and roots.

Japan rejects easily imports, because the plants need to be certified 1D not 1A if their discovery occured AFTER Paphiopedilum have been placed on Appendix I. It is their local law in Japan regarding CITES Appendix 1 plants. Thailand usually makes CITES for 1A, and this is usually rejected. I know as I exported plants to Japan many times. If you got plants rejected, it is most likely because of that. You cannot get the 1D, or very rarely, and the CITES office usually does not agree to make 1D CITES in Thailand. Get a 1D CITES from Thailand, then you can export to Japan freely. Same for the USA.

Taiwan can issue anytime a 1D CITES. This type of Appendix 1 CITES MUST BE accepted by the parties as a proof that the plants are artificially propagated from legitimate parents, in a locally certified nursery. The parties, if the species is non-native to Taiwan, like hangianum, can request a proof that parents have been legally imported. So a CITES from Holger to Taiwan, a year later, everything is kosher.

I am sure that if you import legal hangianum with CITES, you can get pretty soon export CITES from Thailand by the way.

For thaianum, I was there a month ago, and that was the very first time I have seen offered a thousand real plants at once at very cheap price - and they were not on the wild markets believe it or not. Some more nurseries had nice big batches freshly potted as well. Suddenly, when the species can be legalized, massive batches appear. And even on Jatujak, there were two sellers who had basket with about a hundred plants each, one with the orchid people, and another one on the opposite close to the huge trees sellers. I don't care if you believe me or not, but so far, yes, I know pretty much everything that goes on in Asia with paphs, even if I am in Vietnam.

Don't forget too that there are different groups of people, and if you don't know all of them, and some are quite conservative regarding who they are dealing/talking with, you will not know anything. If you go to Malaysia, some nurseries and hobbyists will tell you that rothschildianum costs a hundred bucks a growth, is very rare. Another group of people, who has the proper connections, will tell you that it is right now 4USD per plant, and there are some thousands available. Same for concolor longipetalum, some people can painfully get 20 wild collected plants, some others can get several boxes in no time.

However, this said, I expect that line bred thaianum are going to catch up on the market in the coming years, like the line bred niveum, concolor, godefroyae and the like in Thailand. You should remember too that brachypetalum blooms typically a year to two years out of flask, where things like hangianum will be 5 years, parishii, dianthum, ooii, intaniae, gigantifolium, 4-7 years on average. Some will bloom before, most will bloom in this timeframe and after. It makes a big difference. 

As for hangianum, there will be blooming size seedlings from selected parents for sure in the future, yet if we follow armeniacum, emersonii, malipoense, most of the trade is made of wild collected plants cultivated for a while. There are blooming size seedlings available of those three, but not so many in fact. It has to do with the fact too that they are very cheap as precultivated plant ( armeniacum 2US, emersonii 3US, and malipoense 2US for very big, healthy and strong plants from Taiwan, but guaranteed lousy flowers).



Rick said:


> Pete's a good grower too, and they'll be blooming and breeding in no time.
> 
> I expect the shift in legal hangianum will be much faster than for kovachii since they have been worked over culturally for more years and in much greater numbers.
> 
> They'll be as easy to get as emersonii in short order. (And then emersonii will probably disappear from cultivation.oke:oke Kind of like the way parishii and dianthum trade off on availability.



Well, for parishii and dianthum, both are supplied mostly from wild cultivated plants, same for most emersonii, one has to say the truth. So when the stocks are depleted, it can take a while before they are available again. There are seedlings, like for emersonii, but they represent a fraction of the total offer.


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## Rick (Jul 17, 2011)

Roth said:


> Well, for parishii and dianthum, both are supplied mostly from wild cultivated plants, same for most emersonii, one has to say the truth. So when the stocks are depleted, it can take a while before they are available again. There are seedlings, like for emersonii, but they represent a fraction of the total offer.



True I'm sure for Asian ( I can't vouch for European) markets. US and Australia seem to be relying mostly on seed grown plants produced from a tiny handful of wild stock or early generation stock.

Go to any big garden center or nursery, and orchids are a tiny fraction of what the general US population is interested in. Maybe because they can't be maintained outside year round, or a general disinterest in natural beauty. But American households are generally disinterested in maintaining cheap and disposable houseplants compared to Asian counterparts. If Americans want to spend time maintaining something, their cars, computers, TV sets and I pods are way out front on interest before even dogs/cats other pets or houseplants.

The primary US orchid market (especially for plants other than hybrid phalaes) is driven by a small population of enthusiasts with inherent value driven tastes. Species are only popular as long as they are uncommon and expensive. So a US seed propagated paph is somewhat competitive and profitable. A flood of cheap imports (either collected or propagated) will drop the price down to African violet levels and then the enthusiasts will loose interest, and the general consumer would rather stick with free flowering African violets or the other myriad of easy to bloom windowsill plants. Emersonii has never shown up on the average American's kitchen table.


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## ehanes7612 (Jul 17, 2011)

Rick said:


> True I'm sure for Asian ( I can't vouch for European) markets. US and Australia seem to be relying mostly on seed grown plants produced from a tiny handful of wild stock or early generation stock.
> 
> Go to any big garden center or nursery, and orchids are a tiny fraction of what the general US population is interested in. Maybe because they can't be maintained outside year round, or a general disinterest in natural beauty. But American households are generally disinterested in maintaining cheap and disposable houseplants compared to Asian counterparts. If Americans want to spend time maintaining something, their cars, computers, TV sets and I pods are way out front on interest before even dogs/cats other pets or houseplants.
> 
> The primary US orchid market (especially for plants other than hybrid phalaes) is driven by a small population of enthusiasts with inherent value driven tastes. Species are only popular as long as they are uncommon and expensive. So a US seed propagated paph is somewhat competitive and profitable. A flood of cheap imports (either collected or propagated) will drop the price down to African violet levels and then the enthusiasts will loose interest, and the general consumer would rather stick with free flowering African violets or the other myriad of easy to bloom windowsill plants. Emersonii has never shown up on the average American's kitchen table.



wasnt there a recent report that orchids have become the second largest consumer purchase of plants, second only to poinsettias? orchids (phals and intergenerics) are becoming increasingly popular and overwhelming grocery stores ..they are becoming very cheap...most people buy plants in general stores and supermarkets not nurseries


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## Rick (Jul 17, 2011)

ehanes7612 said:


> wasnt there a recent report that orchids have become the second largest consumer purchase of plants, second only to poinsettias? orchids (phals and intergenerics) are becoming increasingly popular and overwhelming grocery stores ..they are becoming very cheap...most people buy plants in general stores and supermarkets not nurseries



That's true, but we are still not talking species paphs, and plants in general are still way down the list on what Americans bring into their homes to take care of in their homes. How many people do you know (excluding NYEricoke: and the 150 or so indoor plant growers on ST) have their windowsills, countertops, coffee tables, sunrooms, bathroom counters.......covered in potted plants (let alone poinsettias and orchids)? This apparently is not a rare condition in Asian countries. Also survey the ST participants about what percentage of their plants are purchased from supermarkets or nursery and I would suspect is a fairly low percent (we tend to go for the value stuff). I frequently talk to members of rose, gesneriad, iris, and general garden society folk who are completely flabergasted that anyone would pay more than $5 dollars for an orchid when you can get what they are growing for so much less. They just about pass out when I tell them I may pay more than $20 for a plant thats only in bloom for a couple months for the year. 

I would probably have to agree with Roth with regards to indoor plant purchases overall that US is probably a drop in the global bucket for indoor pot plant consumption, and subsequently the US influence on conservation because of financial power is probably negligable.


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## Hien (Jul 17, 2011)

Guys, there is no need for guessing & predicting, here is the current price:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ORCHID-P...?pt=AU_Plants_Seeds_Bulbs&hash=item2c5e072537


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## paphioboy (Jul 17, 2011)

Rick said:


> They just about pass out when I tell them I may pay more than $20 for a plant thats only in bloom for a couple months for the year.
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Rick (Jul 17, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> [
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> :rollhappy: :rollhappy: But then again, we orchid growers are fanatics, almost cult status compared to them mere non-orchid growing mortals..



!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gods or Demons:evil:


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## Roth (Jul 18, 2011)

Rick said:


> True I'm sure for Asian ( I can't vouch for European) markets. US and Australia seem to be relying mostly on seed grown plants produced from a tiny handful of wild stock or early generation stock.



For Europe it is very true. Most hobbyists have no understanding about parentage, so you still can sell easily rothschildianum without parent names there. 

For the USA, some species are propagated, because the flower quality is superior to the wild plants (rothschildianum as an example, but not all. There are still wild roths entering the USA, like Redlands, etc... This is marginal however). Many species are propagated too. 

However some species are rarely propagated, and sold usually as seedling sized plants for the propagated ones, like emersonii, exul, parishii, dianthum (except the album of course), armeniacum, micranthum, malipoense... 

The adults of those species are said to be 'imported' or 'divisions', and end of the story. Three reasons, some are not easy to propagate in big quantities, they are slow growing, and the wild cultivated plants are cheaper. The parishii that you have in the USA at 50-75USD a growth are wild, precultivated plants from Thailand, where they cost 3-5US a growth. Emersonii, armeniacum, etc... they are 'nice blooming size plants' or 'divisions', and end of the story. But they are wild plants for most of them, no mistake. I do no condone or criticize, that's just a fact.

The market in the USA, and many parts of the world is protected, because it requires great knowledge of the networks and sources to get the plants. Otherwise you will be doomed soon, like a certain someone who imported sanderianum and gigantifolium in Hawaii years ago. 

So not many people import anyway, because not many people know where to get plants at the proper price, with the proper paperwork, and none of the real sources from Asia for this kind of things are on the internet or attend exhibitions overseas, even today (they will not even attend Singapore WOC, because they already sold to the resellers that will be there, and they never want to compete with the distributors/resellers). There are several for EACH Asian country.

If they don't know you, they don't reply to you, period. If they know that you will not buy big batches, they will offer you a few plants at 'public price'. If they know that you may be a wholesaler, you get an offer for some hundreds, like the thaianum in Thailand, and for business they have no 'friends' to whom they will do confidences.

I would say many paphiopedilum (except the ones from selected parents) are like a diamond. By a careful market control (kovachii was a blatant, public example), the price can be pushed way over its real value and controlled. Things like the Dou Fong x Green Valley, Fly Eagle x Big Garden, this kind of crap, the US importers paid 15US per plant, not more. Yet they are offered from between 90 and 400USD per plant. Some had wonderful blooms, so they were worth even more, but most of them not so to be honest.

Armeniacum, they paid 2-3 USD to Taiwan, sold from 30 to 95USD. On the other side, as I said before, the market is very small, and if someone was offering armeniacum blooming size at 10USD in the US, he would not sell more plants than if he is selling them for 50USD. He would even loose money.


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## NYEric (Jul 18, 2011)

Rick said:


> How many people do you know (excluding NYEricoke: and the 150 or so indoor plant growers on ST) have their windowsills, countertops, coffee tables, sunrooms, bathroom counters.......covered in potted plants (let alone poinsettias and orchids)? This apparently is not a rare condition in Asian countries.


But we make up for the rest of the country, right?! 



Rick said:


> I would probably have to agree with Roth with regards to indoor plant purchases overall that US is probably a drop in the global bucket for indoor pot plant consumption, and subsequently the US influence on conservation because of financial power is probably negligable.


This is probably true, which makes the way US restrictions are imposed even more ridiculous!  The natural habitats are raped while the propagation materials are not allowed to be shipped to growers.


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## s1214215 (Jul 18, 2011)

The Paph thaianum I sent to Japan that got rejected were 1D certified by Bangkok CITES. I had to get that to send them to Australia too and Australia accepted them with the 1D. I got this for 20+ plants from Chiang Mai with a reciept from the certified seller.

Well to be honest I doubt Holger is too concerned with USA sales anyway even if it now opens the gates, as the Chinese market is huge, and the now can export legally out if China to other countries that have less issues with regard to Vietnamese species.

YEs, there are quantities of _said _thaianum on offer at JJ and other markets: well said to be so, but then even paph experts cant be certain on these until they bloom as I have seen. A couple of visiting Paph exports IDed some plants for me a while ago and half bloomed as thaianum and others 1 hybrid and godefroyae dwarf form. I dont think because thaianum now can enter the USA that the flood gates are open. Firstly CITES Thailand doesnt approve the plants unless they feel they look cultivated. I have seen them reject plants with documents, but looking damaged. More likely plants are to go elsewhere or the local market, and thaianum has been popular here of late. Good thing is flasks are now being produced with line bred forms.

Roth you are right that thaianum line bred will catch up, as it is already being worked on here in Thailand with hobbyists select breeding already. 

Interesting how you keep ripping into the Taiwanese, when I have seen some plants imported to Thailand with great form flowers. But I am sure you will say otherwise, as you are the all knowing.

Any way, this is way of topic and my last comment on this.. Good luck getting more hangianum into the USA. I hope we see more of this species legally sent there soon.

Brett


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## Roth (Jul 19, 2011)

s1214215 said:


> The Paph thaianum I sent to Japan that got rejected were 1D certified by Bangkok CITES. I had to get that to send them to Australia too and Australia accepted them with the 1D. I got this for 20+ plants from Chiang Mai with a reciept from the certified seller.



Legally they cannot reject them then you have the right to ask the reasons, scientifical authority or paperwork matter, and challenge it.



> YEs, there are quantities of _said _thaianum on offer at JJ and other markets: well said to be so, but then even paph experts cant be certain on these until they bloom as I have seen.



Actually the thousands batch plant I have seen is thaianum for most of it, without doubt. What's strange is that many were in low bud, but they were thaianum. I ll post a photo of those later.



> Firstly CITES Thailand doesnt approve the plants unless they feel they look cultivated. I have seen them reject plants with documents, but looking damaged.



So we have not seen the same shipments, I have seen some shipments out of thailand with freaky wild collected plants, including paph intaniae, gigantifolium (the same posted by Paphioboy in the gigantifolium thread), few weeks ago... Or most likely the shipment sent is not the shipment shown to get the CITES permit and they are swapped before the cargo.



> Interesting how you keep ripping into the Taiwanese, when I have seen some plants imported to Thailand with great form flowers. But I am sure you will say otherwise, as you are the all knowing.



I have several close friends in Taiwan, including the former TOGA president, some TPS former presidents, etc... You can ask them if you know them. But even some of them are not too confident about many tagging of paphs from some nurseries in Taiwan, and if the parents said are the parents used...

Now, there are excellent things going out of Taiwan, but there are more lower quality plants, way more. Rothschildianum is a blatant example, some nurseries (iweyshen is around on the forum), you buy roth A x B, you bloom them, you are happy and get many good to excellent flowers. 

Some other nurseries, you buy big batches ( I bought up to 200 NBS roth from some crosses, so I have a bit of expertise in the field, and that's what decided me to pay 15000USD for the Mt Millais motherplant, at least I know what I am getting, rather than spending over the years 15000USD to find out that none of the roth seedlings bloom true or nice...), you bloom them, you realize that they are from several different parents, and none is good.

I would say that Ruey An, Mainshow Orchids, Shin-Yi, Iweyshen/Shen Yi-Wey would be my best choices to get genuine great things. Ching Hua for Maudiae paphs as well. The remaining is hit and miss, most of the time miss.

Some nurseries in Taiwan are specialized in wild collected paphs only, thousands of fresh wild plants, when they have clean leaf, export. Ask Holger Perner even about that, he made a tour during the Taiwan show, and visited such places. There were even a couple hundreds kovachii in bloom (first and only time I saw wild kovachii in quantity, but they were legally exported/imported from Peru, so...).

Some others specialize in flasks, I visited one of them, the wild plants with capsules were in total delirium, but the owner told me his business is flasks, not plants. Indeed, seeing a 8 flowers kolopakingii, rootless from the wild, with 8 seed caps does not preclude any good prognosis for the plants.

They are wholesalers, who usually sell to other Taiwanese nurseries, and those later nurseries put their names on the flasks and plants to be exported. So the access to such places is really not easy.


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## Marc (Jul 19, 2011)

Roth said:


> For Europe it is very true. Most hobbyists have no understanding about parentage, so you still can sell easily rothschildianum without parent names there.



Sorry but I'm not sure what you mean, are your stating that a lot of the plants available in Europe are propagated? Or are lot of the plants available in Europe smuggled and wild collected plants?

I might be naive and blind but as far as Paphs go I haven't seen any plants which are obviously wild collected. And the few nurseries that I've visited since my interest in Paphs was reignited seem to do a lot of propagating themselves.

And regarding the lack of interest in breeding lines in Europe I partially blame the judging systems that various societies have. I'm not a veteran in the orchid hobby but I've allready seen and heard about various judgings that easily raise an eyebrow or two.


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## Roth (Jul 19, 2011)

Marc said:


> Sorry but I'm not sure what you mean, are your stating that a lot of the plants available in Europe are propagated? Or are lot of the plants available in Europe smuggled and wild collected plants?
> 
> I might be naive and blind but as far as Paphs go I haven't seen any plants which are obviously wild collected. And the few nurseries that I've visited since my interest in Paphs was reignited seem to do a lot of propagating themselves.
> 
> And regarding the lack of interest in breeding lines in Europe I partially blame the judging systems that various societies have. I'm not a veteran in the orchid hobby but I've allready seen and heard about various judgings that easily raise an eyebrow or two.



Yes, there is a large amount of paphs in Europe that are definitely not propagated... Look at the following as an example (wild taken is obvious, import means AS WELL wild taken)

satira.juf.ru/db/elsner-price2.xls

At least you get a pricelist where the things are clear. But many other nurseries deal the same species, same plants. Some species, i have never seen blooming size plants that were not wild collected in Europe, like sangii, mastersianum, zieckianum, violascens. Mastersianum from the wild is pretty impressive, big plants, healthy leaves, not a single mark anywhere, nice roots... They look in fact better than cultivated ones.

Now if you imagine wild collected plants to look very rough, it's a very big mistake. Most malipoense fresh from the wild have pristine leaves. micranthum can have several growths with perfect leaves and roots, and be fresh from the wild. many sanderianum can get a CCM/AOS anytime out of the jungle. Look in the gigantifolium thread about the photos of the wild plants. That's the real wild collected plants.

Violascens:
http://cgi.ebay.de/Paphiopedilum-violascens-4-/250823570353#ht_500wt_1156

Sangii:
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270752480215
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270748085395

Randsii:
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270754146747

Anitum:
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250825569576#ht_500wt_1156

And the sister plants of Hakone's photos zieckianum semialbum here:
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270740947686#ht_500wt_1156

wild zieckianum.



Those are guaranteed not seed grown, but the leaves look more or less fine. I know what they are because I know how they arrived in Europe, so I know what I am talking about.

You are right for the judging systems, except England, it has little meaning. The DOG system has no meaning whatsoever, a lot of plants are awarded with below average quality flowers, or worse, they have a GM/DOG, which is a FCC equivalent but for CULTURE, not for flower ( they state it in the award description). I myself attended a judging some years ago in Germany where a cymbidium goeringii got a SM/DOG for the flowers, because it had many flowers, well it was a kanran 

At a time as well the DOG would award all the plants from some exhibitors, and none from the others.

The RHS system on the other side is excellent, and the awards are longer lasting than eve the AOS. A FCC/AOS usually lasts a couple of years before something far superior appears ( like for rothschildianum armeniacum, micranthum, many Maudiae hybrids paphs). A FCC/RHS, well think about Maudiae The Queen, rothschidianum Mt Millais, Eric Young Trinity. All of those are still worth of their award as of today.


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## NYEric (Jul 19, 2011)

Interesting info.


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## s1214215 (Jul 19, 2011)

Info may be interesting, but dont take it for reality unless evidence is proven.. Which in the most cases can not be done.

Sorry, Japan did reject the plants with a 1D. Australia accepted.

Plants I saw at JJ and other markets had no buds.

Xavier, that ebayer if I am not mistaken is a regular Ebay faker. Why use that person as an example? He sells fakes and continually changes his name. If this is proof, well it makes a fraud.

Interesting you say the ex-TOGA president back your argument as he just said that HS is fine and a friend. 

This argument will progess nowhere.. However, I await your last say.

Brett


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## mormodes (Jul 19, 2011)

Holger Perner is scheduled to appear at the Paph Guild in January


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## chrismende (Jul 19, 2011)

Thanks to Holger! Hooray!


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## chrismende (Jul 19, 2011)

You are certainly right about this, Rick! It's fascinating stuff from a marketing standpoint.


Rick said:


> True I'm sure for Asian ( I can't vouch for European) markets. US and Australia seem to be relying mostly on seed grown plants produced from a tiny handful of wild stock or early generation stock.
> 
> Go to any big garden center or nursery, and orchids are a tiny fraction of what the general US population is interested in. Maybe because they can't be maintained outside year round, or a general disinterest in natural beauty. But American households are generally disinterested in maintaining cheap and disposable houseplants compared to Asian counterparts. If Americans want to spend time maintaining something, their cars, computers, TV sets and I pods are way out front on interest before even dogs/cats other pets or houseplants.
> 
> The primary US orchid market (especially for plants other than hybrid phalaes) is driven by a small population of enthusiasts with inherent value driven tastes. Species are only popular as long as they are uncommon and expensive. So a US seed propagated paph is somewhat competitive and profitable. A flood of cheap imports (either collected or propagated) will drop the price down to African violet levels and then the enthusiasts will loose interest, and the general consumer would rather stick with free flowering African violets or the other myriad of easy to bloom windowsill plants. Emersonii has never shown up on the average American's kitchen table.


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## Roth (Jul 20, 2011)

s1214215 said:


> Info may be interesting, but dont take it for reality unless evidence is proven.. Which in the most cases can not be done.



That's evidence there.



> Sorry, Japan did reject the plants with a 1D. Australia accepted. Plants I saw at JJ and other markets had no buds.



When they reject, they must tell the CITES office in Thailand the reason, so you need to ask for that, then you can resend. That's the way it works ( by the way, sometimes Japan rejected FLASKS with a CITES, because flasks from art prop parents etc... are exempted from CITES)

I am sure that the plants had buds, at least the batch I saw, you should have a look again, the buds are in the crown, the spike not yet elongated. I would say about 70% of the batches of real thaianum I have seen were like that a month ago. They all had mites too. And it is indeed possible to tell apart thaianum from small godefroyae pretty easily, from experience.



> Xavier, that ebayer if I am not mistaken is a regular Ebay faker. Why use that person as an example? He sells fakes and continually changes his name. If this is proof, well it makes a fraud.



No, you mistake once again. That ebayer is Baumann Orchids, a company that exists, is legal, since about 30 years. It was a very famous name in the orchid trade before. The Excel file is Elsner Orchids, who made most of the breeding of red phalaenopsis in Germany 40 years ago, and was a key breeder for Phalaenopsis. They had to turn to the species trade when the phal hybrid market was taken over by Taiwan... Two big nurseries, so that's proof of what I say. I do not condone. I am just sad that there are wild collected plants in the trade WITHOUT PROPER CARE INSTRUCTIONS. Many will die.

By the way, the fake fraudster on ebay (botanicalsandmore), I have some doubt about his real identity. If so, he is quite important in the 'honest' paphiopedilum trade as well. One of the auctions had a picture I took myself in Sabah, and I sent that picture only to 1 person. Another one has a concolor album (from Yen in Thailand), I took the picture myself as well, and because it was a wire hanger, I had to take the plant, so there is my shirt on the plant photo (this photo appeared as well on ebay a couple of times, but different cutting). However I do not want to badmouth anyone, so I stay quiet. But I really have a doubt 



> Interesting you say the ex-TOGA president back your argument as he just said that HS is fine and a friend.



Mmmh... First it depends which former president, but I will not extend about that. 

Second if you just ask like that they will not reply anything bad. In a way HS is fine, they are big customers, big suppliers ( to many resellers who put their clonal names and tags on their plants...), they are very good growers, even if their conditions are too extreme, antibiotics + aminoacids, so when the plants are grown elsewhere they need a very long adaption, and some die in the process. Many of their flasks are not what they are supposed to be, it gets proven more and more over time (my roth ro-6 blabla, the gigantifolium flasks sold to my friends in Germany, some thaianum flasks that have shiny leaves and wrong tesselation, the Australian flasks posted here, and more people coming to complain...). It could be a general lab mistake as well, though they have their own lab, so 

You know Brett, if you talk to the key people in Thailand, not some wrangler, they know me very well, and they can back my statements. I have a close friend who has a lot of rothschildianum in Thailand, he bought a lot from Taiwan as well, several suppliers, ask him how many **** he bloomed with great parentage, and how many fake roths (hybrids) he bloomed. I did not buy the plants together with him, and I got the same thing happening. So...

One more disturbing thing, he had a rothschildianum, different leaves ( because of a different grower, so the leaves were more yellow), that was an hybrid again, exactly the same type as my 'Arschfick' I posted, but different parentage on the tags.



I will tell another story about Taiwan as well. About 25 years ago, Terry Root from the Orchid Zone released sanderianum 'Deep Pockets' x 'Jacob's Ladder' seedlings, over several years. 

In 1994, two different Taiwanese people, very important in the trade, told me that they are fake, they are Prince Edward of York (in fact I think someone tried to screw Terry Root heavily from the inside of his company at the time he made the DP x JL cross, at least that's what I have heard). I told Terry Root, who did not believe me, and one of his close friends, they did not trust it, because those very same customers still bought a lot of those, even more than before. 

When the fact was proven, years later, those two Taiwanese came to the Orchid Zone to reclaim the money. I was surprised, and another Taiwanese, long time friend, told me how it worked:

- sanderianum from the Orchid Zone had the OZ tag. They were easy to resell, with a huge profit.

- when they realized they were fake, they still traded those in Taiwan, making a lot of profit, because they had the OZ tag (hence not their responsibility for their own reputation), and the profit for the investment was excellent.

- When the game was over, because some bloomed at the OZ, the Taiwanese came to reclaim, like most of the resellers, the money for those fake sanderianum. And Terry Root did good on that, replaced/refunded EVERYTHING. He was honest, but stupid in a way. He should have asked proof that his resellers were refunding the plants as well...

- In fact, the Taiwanese, who reclaimed the highest amount of money, did NOT refund to their customers, except if each, individual plant was brought back to them IN BLOOM one by one. They said 'some were genuine sanderianum, some not, so we refund only the plants in bloom'.

Of course, out of the thousands of sanderianum they traded from the Orchid Zone, many died. Those were pure profit ( Terry Root repaid their investment, plus they got those free plants already paid). Many, because they were resold a couple of times ( so they rejected those, because maybe their customer's customer swapped the tags). Some as of today did not bloom yet. A few were replaced at the end of the day. And they refused to refund some too because according to them the Orchid Zone did not refund (wrong...).

I will more about that, they even had the schedule that, when they will be proven to be fake, they would ask Terry Root for many of his motherplants to pay back the bill of those 'fake' sanderianum. Over a decade of trade, they calculated the Orchid Zone could not afford to pay back at once all those wrong sanderianum. They were luckily wrong, but you see how it works.

One of the former TPS president too told me (he is very kind and optimistic) that the trade is cleaning by itself, and with time all will be fine and beautiful. I think it may well be so, but it will take time...

So Brett, you see I know a lot of things about the orchid trade anyway, and I have reasons to be suspicious when the same group of people arrives and sell paphs with fantastic parentage, even if they have some fantastic plants with fantastic photos to show to the people.


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## Marc (Jul 20, 2011)

Roth, that's a pretty sad story in the end of your last post. But $$$$ makes people do silly stuff.

Ok so I might be naive and blind, I personally don't have any interest in wild collected material and at least would never willingly buy it. So the price list of Elsner which obviously states that there are wild collected plants on it would be a good guide in what to avoid and what not.

I prefer propagated plants over all, as I'm a windowsill grower my conditions are far from optimal and I'm sure that any stressed, wild collected, bug infected plant will die faster then that it can be shipped from Asia to Europe.


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## Hien (Jul 20, 2011)

Marc said:


> Roth, that's a pretty sad story in the end of your last post. But $$$$ makes people do silly stuff.
> 
> Ok so I might be naive and blind, I personally don't have any interest in wild collected material and at least would never willingly buy it. So the price list of Elsner which obviously states that there are wild collected plants on it would be a good guide in what to avoid and what not.
> 
> I prefer propagated plants over all, as I'm a windowsill grower my conditions are far from optimal and I'm sure that any stressed, wild collected, bug infected plant will die faster then that it can be shipped from Asia to Europe.



After reading many of the posts, I have the feeling that it is really not important whether a plant is wild or grows from seed (since there are not enough of collectors who collect the species).


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## Hakone (Jul 20, 2011)

Xavier, 

O & M, Popow orchids, Großräschener Orchideen, Franz gGlanz and la cour the orchidées are also well address for paph


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## NYEric (Jul 20, 2011)

Marc said:


> Ok so I might be *naive *and blind, I personally don't have any interest in wild collected material and at least would never willingly buy it. So the price list of Elsner which obviously states that there are wild collected plants on it would be a good guide in what to avoid and what not.



Probably the former, if you have certain species in your collection they are probably from the wild, no question. Sorry, just harsh reality.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jul 20, 2011)

We keep forgetting, although Lance Birk has sometimes reminded us, that wild collected plants can actually do very well. I had a better survival rate with my paph species before 1990, when most of my paphs were collected. The fact that they survived long enough to be in my care showed that they had to have strong, vigorous constitutions. Collecting in and of itself isn't bad...it just has to be responsible collecting...something not encouraged by CITES regulations.


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## Hien (Jul 20, 2011)

From Roth's post, I see that the nursery actually mentions which plants are wild collected, which are not.
This is a good policy, each buyer can decide for himself or herself what to buy depending on the individual belief. 
Although, I would really like to see that flasks can be imported by american companies regardless of parentage.
Don't forget that all orchids, all the species & hybrids, all genera on the market right now (every single one can be traced back with ancestors in the wild)


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## Rick (Jul 20, 2011)

Hien said:


> Don't forget that all orchids, all the species & hybrids, all genera on the market right now (every single one can be traced back with ancestors in the wild)



Of course, and we wouldn't have it any other way if it was even possible. The primary value for species collectors (which I include myself) have for our plants is that they represent the wild parent. 

But given how much easier it is to raise hybrids and meristems, and the flowers are even more exaggerated than the parent species, there's got to be something other than the desire to be surrounded by pretty flowers that supports a species orchid market. Could it be that all those people crammed into dense concrete cities are yearning for a piece of real nature? Ehanes mentioned a report that showed that in the US orchids have equaled or surpassed the seasonal poinsettia sales. But I also go into the grocery stores that sell orchids, and more square footage is actually devoted to non orchids and cut flowers (that sell for much less than orchids). So with all the great access to mass quantities of pretty cultivated flowers, why are wild slipper orchids being harvested?

But the point was how many wild plants are sacrificed to get those seedlings, how many are left in the wild, and how much wild is left for them to grow?


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## Bolero (Jul 21, 2011)

Sounds great! I have one for sale on Ebay as we speak. But I don't have many to sell.

;-)


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## NYEric (Jul 21, 2011)

Rick said:


> Could it be that all those people crammed into dense concrete cities are yearning for a piece of real nature?


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## paphioboy (Jul 21, 2011)

NYEric said:


>



Stop hoarding everyone else's 'piece of nature'...


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