# Triple spiking P.thaianum



## poozcard (May 29, 2011)

Should discharacteristic be added to the description of P.thaianum?

:drool::drool::drool:







3 spikes are from the same growth.






:drool::drool::drool:


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## Rick (May 29, 2011)

Pretty crazy.

What growth hormone are they using?oke:oke:oke:

Unless at least 20% of them do this (in the wild) I wouldn't give it much more than a footnote in the taxonomic description.

Seems like you can make a plant do just about anything in culture.


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## poozcard (May 29, 2011)

Haha.
Don't take to too serious.
That is just cool for me to see this.

The greatest things is diversities we have on the earth.
Lots are waiting for you to discover.


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## Rick (May 29, 2011)

poozcard said:


> Haha.
> Don't take to too serious.
> That is just cool for me to see this.
> 
> ...




Yes lots to see. 

You stay on this site long enough you see lots of crazy things. We've seen this a few times on random plants (usually hybrids). Sometimes we think parasites or some disease in the crown stimulates the crown for additional growth. Sometimes spikes, sometimes a whole new plant.


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## paphioboy (May 29, 2011)

I think maybe too much fertiliser... Thai growers are known for force-feeding their plants to get many big bloomings..   What fertiliser are you using for this plant? How often?


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## poozcard (May 29, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> I think maybe too much fertiliser... Thai growers are known for force-feeding their plants to get many big bloomings..   What fertiliser are you using for this plant? How often?



Haha, you will not believe until you have the plant in your own collection.
I know the trick too well. 

:evil::evil::evil:


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## paphioboy (May 29, 2011)

Share, share your secret....


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## SlipperKing (May 29, 2011)

AHhhh a four headed monster on a three necked body! most interesting!


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## Roth (May 29, 2011)

It looks like the plants from the second colony ( the one that is mixed with pure niveum). I found plants from that colony to be overall bigger and stronger than the 'original' thaianum... 

I still wonder if thaianum is a species or just a very poor type of niveum...


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## poozcard (May 29, 2011)

More to share, double spiking this time


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## poozcard (May 29, 2011)

Rick said:


> Pretty crazy.
> 
> What growth hormone are they using?oke:oke:oke:
> 
> ...




The tripple spiking is found as 1 of 2000 flowers we have seen.
But double spiking is aprox. 10 of 2000 (0.5%)

Footnote is find for me in this case. 

The 1st plant in this topic, triple spiking one, is giving some year 1 spikes or 2 spikes or 3 spikes depends on the weather.

Double/Triple spiking plants are found from different collections which has different use of fertiliser.


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## poozcard (May 29, 2011)

Roth said:


> It looks like the plants from the second colony ( the one that is mixed with pure niveum). I found plants from that colony to be overall bigger and stronger than the 'original' thaianum...
> 
> I still wonder if thaianum is a species or just a very poor type of niveum...



I also have dwarf niveums too. The size is quite similar to P.thaianum or a little bit bigger (leaves are shorter than 7cm)

And it is also heard that 1 wild collected niveum can also have double spikes too.

But the fact is, in the mountain we found thaianum, there is not a single plant of niveum. Only Paph.godefroyae fma.leucochilum is found there and the ones that we believe it is a natural hybrid between P.godefroyae fma.leucochilum x P.thaianum. 
Those are only 2 plant in that habitat.

And also there are many attributes of thaianum distinct from nivemu such as
Rough leaves surface
Blooming starts 1 month ealier (approx)
Green textured staminode 
etc

Those reasons make me believe that it is not a poor form of P.niveum


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## poozcard (May 29, 2011)

But I have to accept that P.thaianum is very close cousin of P.niveum.
They are only 2 Brachys having this look when spiking

1. P.thaianum






2. P.nivemu






They look like a spout of teakettle. 
Or sometimes resembles a swan neck
Very obviously.


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## NYEric (May 30, 2011)

Nice. It would be nicer to get some of those here!


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## Pete (May 30, 2011)

i would NOT put that anywhere in a taxonomic description as it is almost certainly not typical, or even close to it. it is some sort of hormone imbalance and likely wont or hasnt yet had the effect on many others and these are just the ones to show it so far. have you been messing around with cytokinins or gibberellins?


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## valenzino (May 30, 2011)

As is not a 1 time phenomena,will be worth trying to select the characteristic through breeding(using only plants with that characteristic)...try it?


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## poozcard (May 30, 2011)

Pete said:


> i would NOT put that anywhere in a taxonomic description as it is almost certainly not typical, or even close to it. it is some sort of hormone imbalance and likely wont or hasnt yet had the effect on many others and these are just the ones to show it so far. have you been messing around with cytokinins or gibberellins?




Even they use cytokinins, I think it has been used widely all over the world.
Have you found this happens with other species?


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## Rick (May 30, 2011)

poozcard said:


> Even they use cytokinins, I think it has been used widely all over the world.
> Have you found this happens with other species?



Yes, We've had people post multi spikes on this forum before.

Like I said you can create just about anything in the GH or the lab.

Generally has nothing to do with genetics and nothing to do with species status.

.01% not even close to anything but same chance for any paph species. Just about same odds as getting struck by lightning.


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## poozcard (May 30, 2011)

Rick said:


> Yes, We've had people post multi spikes on this forum before.



Oh that is interesting.
Could you please give me the link? Thx

:rollhappy::rollhappy:


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## Rick (May 30, 2011)

poozcard said:


> Oh that is interesting.
> Could you please give me the link? Thx
> 
> :rollhappy::rollhappy:



Maybe someone who posted can. I have to go to work in a few minutes and don't have time to search.

At 1 incident per 2000 posts you can tell there would be some digging on this forumoke:oke:

The thread titles where usually something like "this is wierd" or "is this normal"


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## valenzino (May 30, 2011)

Rick said:


> Yes, We've had people post multi spikes on this forum before.
> 
> Like I said you can create just about anything in the GH or the lab.
> 
> ...



Agree but reading the post seems that some of this plants reflower with multispikes...right poozcard?Will be like a lightning strickeing 2 times in same point..oke:

If that's true,can be genetic...also cause as said also others from the same population had shown multispikes...
Did other species or hybrids in the same growing area shown the same feature(if yes will be a proof that is due to cultivation hormons etc...).


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## s1214215 (May 30, 2011)

I support Poozcard and sorry, Roth.. I dont agree.. The pics are too low resolution to tell for sure its a cross.. But you would say anything, that has bcome clear. 

Look, it true a lot of fertilisers and nutrients used here are overboard for long term good and produce abnormal results, but not everyone uses them that way too. 

Brett


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## Rick (May 30, 2011)

poozcard said:


> The tripple spiking is found as 1 of 2000 flowers we have seen.
> But double spiking is aprox. 10 of 2000 (0.5%)
> 
> Footnote is find for me in this case.



You guys are gamblers!

The odds are better at the slots in Vegasoke:oke:

Try another way. I believe you said you were an engineer. What kind of liability insurance could you get for a building design that had a 10 in 2000 chance of surviving a normal seasonal typhoon?


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## Rick (May 30, 2011)

valenzino said:


> Agree but reading the post seems that some of this plants reflower with multispikes...right poozcard?Will be like a lightning strickeing 2 times in same point..oke:
> 
> If that's true,can be genetic...also cause as said also others from the same population had shown multispikes...
> Did other species or hybrids in the same growing area shown the same feature(if yes will be a proof that is due to cultivation hormons etc...).




Sorry, but 0.5% odds can't prove anything (that will pay the bills anyway). But I'm very impressed that someone bothered to count! I do environmental biometrics for a living, anything less than 1% is total conjecture. Sometimes you can get folks to buy into something at 10%. By 20% you could pass in a court of law or get your pHD dissertation approved.


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## Rick (May 30, 2011)

valenzino said:


> Agree but reading the post seems that some of this plants reflower with multispikes...right poozcard?Will be like a lightning strickeing 2 times in same point..oke:



Actually I had a good friend who had been struck twice during his lifetime. He died of cancer a couple years ago. I heard on the radio that there was an unofficial club here in the US for people who have been hit by lightning. At least 1 of their members had survived 3 strikes!!!!!! 

Despite the joking around, I would like to see a comprehensive survey of the population metrics of thaianam in the wild (before removal to cultivation). What's the pollinator?


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## valenzino (May 30, 2011)

Rick,I think that only easy thing to do to see results,is to try and not calculate,if human lives are not involved....
If I had enough space,and can do outdoor paph growing year round,this will be a nice challenge...in this case is an interesting "diversity"...in the other species,the rate is not 1/200,is 0-1/over 100.000...so in this case we have a goood percentage(if 1/200 was a bad percentage,quantum fisics will be never tried or studied...)is not so far for the selection of an albino paph from a selfing of a semialba one...
Rick,I think plants breeding is working on different numbers...I just selected a sukakulii that is probably 4N...the only different plant in a batch of 2500+ seedlings in compots...if its real true 4N the possibility was of 1/2500...but easy just have to search the batch and know what to see...
If have space outdoor to grow seedlings selected and breeded for that characteristic only time and space(and a good lab) needed...and brachys are quite fast plants...so in 6-8 years will be already at 3rd generation...


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## Rick (May 30, 2011)

valenzino said:


> Rick,I think that only easy thing to do to see results,is to try and not calculate,if human lives are not involved....
> If I had enough space,and can do outdoor paph growing year round,this will be a nice challenge...in this case is an interesting "diversity"...in the other species,the rate is not 1/200,is 0-1/over 100.000...so in this case we have a goood percentage(if 1/200 was a bad percentage,quantum fisics will be never tried or studied...)is not so far for the selection of an albino paph from a selfing of a semialba one...
> Rick,I think plants breeding is working on different numbers...I just selected a sukakulii that is probably 4N...the only different plant in a batch of 2500+ seedlings in compots...if its real true 4N the possibility was of 1/2500...but easy just have to search the batch and know what to see...
> If have space outdoor to grow seedlings selected and breeded for that characteristic only time and space(and a good lab) needed...and brachys are quite fast plants...so in 6-8 years will be already at 3rd generation...



I like your thinking Valenzino!!! Lets write a grant


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## poozcard (May 31, 2011)

Rick said:


> Actually I had a good friend who had been struck twice during his lifetime. He died of cancer a couple years ago. I heard on the radio that there was an unofficial club here in the US for people who have been hit by lightning. At least 1 of their members had survived 3 strikes!!!!!!
> 
> Despite the joking around, I would like to see a comprehensive survey of the population metrics of thaianam in the wild (before removal to cultivation). What's the pollinator?



Welcome to Thailand.
I would like to see it too.

:clap::clap::clap:


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## poozcard (May 31, 2011)

valenzino said:


> Agree but reading the post seems that some of this plants reflower with multispikes...right poozcard?Will be like a lightning strickeing 2 times in same point..oke:
> 
> If that's true,can be genetic...also cause as said also others from the same population had shown multispikes...
> Did other species or hybrids in the same growing area shown the same feature(if yes will be a proof that is due to cultivation hormons etc...).



That is really good to know that hormones may cause this result too.
I have never thought about before.
Will try next time when I got the plant in my own collection.

Maybe we can see 5 spikes blooming in the same time.


:drool::drool::drool::drool:


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## valenzino (May 31, 2011)

Rick said:


> I like your thinking Valenzino!!! Lets write a grant



Ok,you put money,I put knowhow!:clap:oke::rollhappy:
Or maybe we ask Poozcard to put everything and we only take the merits of the research.. :evil::rollhappy::sob:

Always open to new orchids experiences and researches!



poozcard said:


> That is really good to know that hormones may cause this result too.
> I have never thought about before.
> Will try next time when I got the plant in my own collection.
> 
> ...



Sometimes hormones give strikeing results,but quite always you pay them seeing the plant die!Like a bit doping in sport oke:

I've done some experiment with NFT sistems,using some pure animal extracts from a factory that produce a whole gamma of nutrients(was the pure concentrated product that have to be diluted thousand times to be used...I used it pure,1 drop every 2 days in a 20 litre basin nft system).That was derived from cow/horse/pig blood.A deadly smelly black dense product extrafull of everithing(hormons proteins aminoacids etc....).I had some Bulbophyllums doing 10 leaves x Bulb!!!But after 1 year all died and no one have flowered while the original plants have flowered as usual...

Can be interesting to do some experiments,but bad thing on a long term basis.And,for peoples selling plants,its a real scum!
They buy a extra powerfull plant that in few months fade away...they feel unabl to grow orchids and loose passion...so not to be done.Some giberellins and others can be well used to stimulate new growth and new roots but must be used as an help not a solution.
The use of some hormons,in a right percentage,at the beginning of the vegetative groth,(apply 2-3 times at medium low concentration just before or at the beginning of the vegetative periode),can help in create faster specimen plants,but if done too much,the plant can collapse because of missproportion and uselees organs dimensions compared to the environment.

If you dont use hormons etc,will be worth trying to cross the 3spiked thaianum with the 2 spiked thaianum and see the result...after the outcome all flowered,if other multispiked ones occured,select them and recross them again,to see if the percentage of multispikeing is improving...if that occurs,in 3-4 generations you will end up with a population of all multispikeing thaianums...and possibly that characterisctic can be passed to their hybrids also...so a whole new line of multispikeing paphs...


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## poozcard (May 31, 2011)

valenzino said:


> Ok,you put money,I put knowhow!:clap:oke::rollhappy:
> Or maybe we ask Poozcard to put everything and we only take the merits of the research.. :evil::rollhappy::sob:
> 
> Always open to new orchids experiences and researches!
> ...



Thank you Valenzino for your advise.


I did cross the 2-spike thaianum with this plant of mine in the pic.
Let's see.

For the 3 spikes we did not success in selfing it this year. Will try again next year.

:rollhappy::rollhappy::rollhappy:


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## Rick (May 31, 2011)

Yup keep in mind that Roundup herbicide is just an overdose version of our favorite auxin (or is it cytokinin?).

What doesn't kill you can make you crazy!


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## poozcard (May 31, 2011)

Rick said:


> Yup keep in mind that Roundup herbicide is just an overdose version of our favorite auxin (or is it cytokinin?).
> 
> What doesn't kill you can make you crazy!



Ahhhh
This is also new to me.
Have to spend sometimes studying how to use those hormones.

But so bad, i am not in the mood now.
I just lost an old dog last night.
He was too old at age 16. Good for him though.


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## valenzino (May 31, 2011)

Rick said:


> Yup keep in mind that Roundup herbicide is just an overdose version of our favorite auxin (or is it cytokinin?).
> 
> What doesn't kill you can make you crazy!



Yes,like some Russian Male sportsmen that,before the ban of many hormons etc...use to have big tits!!:rollhappy::rollhappy::rollhappy:



poozcard said:


> Ahhhh
> This is also new to me.
> Have to spend sometimes studying how to use those hormones.
> 
> ...



Sorry about your lost...in my family,dogs and cats are top members of the family and always feel very sad when go missing!Sorry again.


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## Rick (May 31, 2011)

That is very sad about your dog.

We just put down one of our old dogs this past week. She just couldn't get up any more.

She just showed up on our doorstep(lost) on Christmas day in 1997 or 98, and not sure exactly how old she was when she found us.

But these dogs are definitely part of the family.


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## Heather (May 31, 2011)

I don't know what I do without my little Pup. She's been with us just a year now and I'm so happy we adopted her. She brings me so much joy. 

So sad for both of your losses.


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## poozcard (May 31, 2011)

Thank you Valenzino, Rick and Heather.
Growing paph is much less sadness when the paphs die.


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## goldenrose (Jun 1, 2011)

poozcard said:


> .... But so bad, i am not in the mood now.
> I just lost an old dog last night.
> He was too old at age 16. Good for him though.



Sorry to hear of your loss, Rick too, it's hard not to miss them. Try to think of the good times and that you had him around that long to enjoy!


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## poozcard (Jun 1, 2011)

poozcard said:


> Thank you Valenzino for your advise.
> 
> 
> I did cross the 2-spike thaianum with this plant of mine in the pic.
> ...




sorry i forgot the pic
:evil::evil::evil:


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## valenzino (Jun 1, 2011)

Wow,very nice one!I really like this ones with green staminode.
I think is a good try but to right one to do was to do the cross between 2 multispiked one.But still a good try,maybe you will already have good results with this(shurely on shape,is nearly perfect!)


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## fibre (Jun 1, 2011)

What a thaianum !!!!!!!!


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## poozcard (Jul 9, 2011)

Another 2 double spike thaianum from the show today.
Both of them are coming from different growing area/ different grower

:drool::drool::drool:


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## poozcard (Jul 9, 2011)

sorry for low quality picture i took from mobile phone
If I can find a better photo, the spike on the right is almost having branch!!!


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## poozcard (Jul 9, 2011)

2nd double spike
the flower looks better.






2nd spike is coming from the same growth


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## fibre (Jul 9, 2011)

Very interesting!


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## s1214215 (Jul 9, 2011)

Faster than me Montri LOL.. I will post my pic when I get it of my phone if it is better. Didnt see you at the BFC meeting

Brett


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## paphioboy (Jul 9, 2011)

Very interesting... Maybe thaianum is a species which naturally has high propensity to produce multiple spikes from the same growth..


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## Roth (Jul 9, 2011)

Apparently there are some more out of the new colony that is currently being collected ( and was mixed that time with plants of both leucochilum for those I have seen in Bangkok two weeks ago). Those look nicer than the original collection.


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## s1214215 (Jul 9, 2011)

Hmm , maybe, maybe not

Thai friends have told me this species has been in cultivation for some time, more than 15 years some say, but it was largely regarded as poor form of niveum and thus ignored by most.

There are flasked plants bloomed here now.. some growers are trying to make better forms. I have seen line breds here that have had more than one bloom.

Brett


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## s1214215 (Jul 9, 2011)

Roth, I last week saw a hybrid with leucochilum (collected) in Jatujak for sale. They do overlap, but it was distinctly a hybrid and not a straight thaianum. 

Brett


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## NYEric (Jul 9, 2011)

When am I going to have a compot of these, multi-spiking or not!!?!?!


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## Lars Pedersen (Sep 12, 2011)

Here is a multispiking Phrag. dalessandroi
I Will post more pictures later.

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=312884#post312884


Lars


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