# Stonei slower than roth?



## The Mutant (Sep 15, 2013)

So, I just accidentally ordered a stonei seedling (I just slipped into the basket, dunno how it happened) and did a search on the forum for some stonei culture. According to what you guys said to another one asking the same things I would've, it's roth conditions for these guys (although not mine when it arrives, since it has a leaf span of supposedly 15 cm (6"), I'm tired of burning multiflora seedlings to crisp).

You also cautioned this other member that they are slow growers until they get to be multigrowth plants. My question is; are they even slower than roths? Just so I know what to expect.


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## jtrmd (Sep 15, 2013)

They are for me.


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## Justin (Sep 15, 2013)

They start out slow. For a seedling grow it a little brighter then a phal with good humidity and air flow. After it is 12" you can give it very strong light so that the leaves are light green. expect a spike in about 5-6 years.


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## Trithor (Sep 15, 2013)

The core difference as I understand it is that roths dislike Ca, but stonei like Ca. The rest is pretty similar, slow to mature the first growth, but tend to break multiple growths after that which make it appear to be faster growing, certainly forms a clump easier, not so sure about flowering. Roths flower reasonably easily, stonei, not so much for me.
Hope someone can be of more assistance.


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## eggshells (Sep 15, 2013)

Stonei are faster for me than the roths.


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## Rick (Sep 15, 2013)

Trithor said:


> The core difference as I understand it is that roths dislike Ca, but stonei like Ca. The rest is pretty similar, slow to mature the first growth, but tend to break multiple growths after that which make it appear to be faster growing, certainly forms a clump easier, not so sure about flowering. Roths flower reasonably easily, stonei, not so much for me.
> Hope someone can be of more assistance.



The Ca like/dislike thing is really a myth based on the underlying geology of the places where these plants come from.

Roth is found over serpentine which is high in alkaline magnesium silicates but low in Ca. Stonei is found over limestone (high in Ca). However, forest soil analysis from Mt Kinabalu indicates that there is generally more Ca than Mg available and the pH is still somewhat acidic. Analysis of leaf litter and forest soils over karst areas show a higher ratio of Ca to Mg, but not out of range of what you can find on Mt Kinabalu or other tropical ultramorphic soil deposits.

The commonality to both sites is that K is low (again). Overall nutrients are low (again).

If you feed your multi seedlings (roth/supardii/stonei/lowii) at very low rates (down around 5ppm N) with very low K, I'm sure you'll find they grow as fast as anything else. 

I'm finding that our slowest growing species have been inhibited by too much food rather than inherently being slow growers when small.

Also dig back to one of Stones threads where he posted a paper on photosynthetic rates relative to size (it may be in his thread on "Specimen Plants"). It was pretty obvious that even when scaling down for leaf area differences, the photosynthetic rates of little plants is lower than for the big plants. 

Mineral uptake is correlated to photosynthetic rate, and photosynthesis is inhibited by excess nutrients. You need to match the feeding rate to the growing potential of the size of the plant, or the plants growth is inhibited.


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## Trithor (Sep 15, 2013)

Rick, I think there is more to it than simple myth. I base that tentative statement on observation. I realise I am not the best, or most experienced grower, but I have noticed that roth roots seem to avoid limestone chips , while stonei roots seem not to care one way or the other. I sought out a supply of ca based rock chips some years ago with everyone claiming that you had to add Ca to your mix in one form or another. At a natural stone importer, I found a variety of different types of stone chip intended for decorative purposes. I went through a stage of using gravel of various types as a drainage medium. I figured if the plants were growing in leaf litter overlying various rock types that perhaps I should not use it in the medium, but beneath it as a drainage aid. Long story short, the roths roots seemed to circle the pot above the stone layer, while the stonei roots seemed to go all over the place including between the stone chips. I realise it can be a lot of other things other than the type of stone, perhaps even pH. Perhaps the pH was too high for roths and the root tips avoided it, perhaps not. Just an observation. Having said that I am a really lousy stonei grower, and currently I seem to be rotting my roths as well.


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## Rick (Sep 15, 2013)

I used to push roths into higher pH systems (using magox) to replicate that serpentine effect, but it ended up not helping. Now seeing the soil analysis of the serpentine soils on Mt Kinabalu I was shocked that it was acidic. 

I don't think relative calcium availability has anything to do with good seedling growth, but I think the overall tolerance to excess levels of nutrients (especially K) varies a lot. 

Limestone has virtually no K whatsoever. So it would make sense that species that grow on limestone cliffs may be effected by it more strongly than those from other habitats.


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## polyantha (Sep 15, 2013)

Roths aren't very slow anymore. In fact some of the modern clones are pretty fast. The roth plants in my collection are almost as fast as my gigs. As for the stonei: yes my stoneis are way slower than my roths. But I am sure it depends on what clone you have.

The very old roths were sometimes terribly slow. Some progenies of Charles E (Wild collected togetzer with MM) are very slow as an example.


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## The Mutant (Sep 16, 2013)

Well, I don't know which clone I'll get, and I don't know how big it'll be (the vendor's site says a 15 cm leafspan (6"), but I've gotten bigger ones before), but I won't repeat the whole "Oooh, let's burn my multis to crisp!"-fiasco again. Lesson learned.

So, slower than roths then, that's good to know. Thanks guys.


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## Paphman910 (Sep 16, 2013)

Justin said:


> They start out slow. For a seedling grow it a little brighter then a phal with good humidity and air flow. After it is 12" you can give it very strong light so that the leaves are light green. expect a spike in about 5-6 years.



Justin hit the nail on the head!

As mature plants they grow faster than stonei IMO! They readily clump. Always buy the larger plant if available. It took me 5 years to get it up to 7 growths!
It grows like a weed for me.


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## goldenrose (Sep 16, 2013)

Right now for me it's a tie! 
I'm setting up a warm winter grow room in my basement so I'll see if that makes any difference. The roth clones can make a difference, none of mine seem to be fast, none have bloomed yet. My roth hybrids on the other hand grow faster & bloom easier. I only have one stonei & it has bloomed so I don't know that I'm the best judge. Just my 2 cents worth and looks like I need another stonei or 2!


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## Stone (Sep 17, 2013)

Rick said:


> The Ca like/dislike thing is really a myth based on the underlying geology of the places where these plants come from.
> 
> Roth is found over serpentine which is high in alkaline magnesium silicates but low in Ca. Stonei is found over limestone (high in Ca). However, forest soil analysis from Mt Kinabalu indicates that there is generally more Ca than Mg available and the pH is still somewhat acidic. Analysis of leaf litter and forest soils over karst areas show a higher ratio of Ca to Mg, but not out of range of what you can find on Mt Kinabalu or other tropical ultramorphic soil deposits.
> 
> ...



I can't seem to find anything to disagree with here  All (or the great majority) of the paphs I have gathered so far have been seedlings and I am finding that they all resond to pretty much the same treatment. ie very warm, very humid and lots and lots of air. 
I have 1 small stonei and 1 small supardii and they get exactly the same treatment as the roths. I do throw in a small amount of dolomite gravel as I'm using rain water to irrigate. A little more for the rock dwellers and a little less for the forest floor dwellers but they all get a bit. There is no doubt that the small seedlings can get by on very little feeding and at the moment I'm leaning more towards amino acid rather than ''chemical''. Root growth and colour is very good. 
Even the anitums I recently delfasked are looking happy with this treatment. So far I haven't lost any and they have only been fed fermented fish/crustation shell liquid and kelpac, both at very week concentrations. It seems to be all they need!


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## Ozpaph (Sep 17, 2013)

Mick, whats the 'fermented' stuff?


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## 2Toned (Sep 17, 2013)

Ozpaph said:


> Mick, whats the 'fermented' stuff?



my immediate thought! sounds like fish sauce


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## Stone (Sep 17, 2013)

Ozpaph said:


> Mick, whats the 'fermented' stuff?



Eco amino grow. I looked for the manufactures web site but I'll be damned if I can find it!! But its the only product with chitin and other compounds available.


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## The Mutant (Sep 18, 2013)

I thought more along the lines of surströmming, and couldn't help thinking that your GH must reek something awful! :rollhappy:

I have tasted this...blargh, once and never again. My father loved it so he had it every autumn (the cans have to be opened outside, otherwise people will probably throw up from the stench alone).  Swedes are crazy people...*shudders*


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## naoki (Sep 18, 2013)

Mike, why Chitin? I wouldn't think that such a long polymer can be absorbed by plants. Wikipedia mentions that it could induce plant defense system. Is this the reason? Does Chitin mimics fungal infection since it is a component of their cell walls?


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## Stone (Sep 18, 2013)

naoki said:


> Mike, why Chitin? I wouldn't think that such a long polymer can be absorbed by plants. Wikipedia mentions that it could induce plant defense system. Is this the reason? Does Chitin mimics fungal infection since it is a component of their cell walls?



Yes something like that. Though the real reason I use it on orchids is for the wide range of amino acids in it. However I also use it on some of my bonsai as a means to help control nematodes as I've read that chitin promotes certain bacteria which consume it and part of the nematode or its eggs? contain chitin as do many insects etc.


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## Brabantia (Sep 19, 2013)

Stone said:


> Yes something like that. Though the real reason I use it on orchids is for the wide range of amino acids in it. However I also use it on some of my bonsai as a means to help control nematodes as I've read that chitin promotes certain bacteria which consume it and part of the nematode or its eggs? contain chitin as do many insects etc.



Is casein hydrolysate a good alternative to chitin? Casein is used in In-Vitro orchids culture as a source of amino-acids.


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## The Mutant (Sep 19, 2013)

I picked up my little stonei baby today, and as I suspected, it's twice the size of what is written on the vendor's site (30 cm or 11.8"). I'm actually starting to wonder if the leaf span they write, at least on the Paphs, is in fact the size of the leaves? I don't know German, but Blattspanne, sounds an awful lot like bladspann (leaf span in Swedish), but maybe it's just my lack of knowledge about the German language which has led to this misunderstanding. 

Anyway, it looks healthy, the top part at least, and I'll repot it tomorrow and put it together with the Phal crowd.


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## Paphman910 (Sep 19, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> I picked up my little stonei baby today, and as I suspected, it's twice the size of what is written on the vendor's site (30 cm or 11.8"). I'm actually starting to wonder if the leaf span they write, at least on the Paphs, is in fact the size of the leaves? I don't know German, but Blattspanne, sounds an awful lot like bladspann (leaf span in Swedish), but maybe it's just my lack of knowledge about the German language which has led to this misunderstanding.
> 
> Anyway, it looks healthy, the top part at least, and I'll repot it tomorrow and put it together with the Phal crowd.



Please post a picture of it!


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## The Mutant (Sep 20, 2013)

Paphman910 said:


> Please post a picture of it!


Sure thing! I just had to repot it first, and it had a great root system. I'm _very_ pleased with this young stonei. 







It has a leafspan of 30 cm (11.8"), and the largest leaves are also 4 cm (1.6") wide. I hope I'll be able to grow it properly now.


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## Trithor (Sep 20, 2013)

That is a beautiful stonei! The leaves show good width to length ratio. I am seriously jealous!


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## Justin (Sep 20, 2013)

Nice one! That could be up to blooming size in just 2 years easy.

Congrats!


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## eggshells (Sep 20, 2013)

Nice, it will only get wider and longer.


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## The Mutant (Sep 20, 2013)

Thanks! Let's just say that I was very happy with my order, since all three plants were of similar quality (a Phal. Cornustris Dark and a Phal. Bernice Maskin joined the order too). 

Now I hope I won't mess up since I've gotten such a nice stonei, keep your fingers crossed!


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## eggshells (Sep 20, 2013)

I thought you were moving away from phals and getting more slippers. Are you back collecting both again


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## The Mutant (Sep 20, 2013)

Actually, no, but I have some serious problems with resisting equestris primary hybrids. :rollhappy: 

I'm still more inclined to Paphs, and there are more Paphs than Phals that I want (still have equestris 'Orange' on my wishlist though). I'm selling one of my equestris 'Blue Lip' at the moment, and I'll try to give away the Cornustris I already have, since I found it rather drab. So all in all, my collection of both genera won't increase, since my big philippinenese var roebelenii is about to kick the bucket too.


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## Leo Schordje (Sep 20, 2013)

Growth rates are a function of multiple factors. Rick's, Stones, and other suggestions are great, but nobody specifically mentioned temperatures. 

Paph rothschildianum is from medium to higher elevations on Mt. Kinabulu. P. stonei is from lower elevations in the Mulu Hills (Karst formation) area near Kuching, Sarawak. Habitat differences, are mainly that stonei is in a warmer temperature regime. 

For us home growers, stoneii would be happy in an the warmer end of intermediate range. It will get along fine in a warm greenhouse where the lowest temps at night would be 68 F. In nature the coolest stonei regularly experiences I guess would be around 64 F. Mike (Stone) am I about right on this? I could be off a few degrees. 

P. rothschildianum comes from an intermediate temperature regime. Its night time temps tend to be a bit cooler. On the average I would guess the night temps run in the 58 F to 65 F range. Occasional dips a little lower. Roth is happy in an intermediate range greenhouse, and will get by in the warmer range. 

Not a large difference in temperatures, but Paph stonei was originally adapted to a slightly warmer regime. People who tend to average warmer growing will probably find stonei to grow as fast as or faster than rothschildianum. People who grow more in the intermediate range will likely find rothschildianum quicker. 

My warm growing Paphs, stonei, sanderianum, kolopakingii, philippinense, and a few others just leap forward in our 3 months of warm and humid weather. My roths grow more steady, they do grow well in the heat, but they keep growing in the cooler weather. In cooler temps, especially sanderianum and stonei tend to be sluggish in my intermediate conditions. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## Paphman910 (Sep 20, 2013)

Leo Schordje said:


> Growth rates are a function of multiple factors. Rick's, Stones, and other suggestions are great, but nobody specifically mentioned temperatures.
> 
> Paph rothschildianum is from medium to higher elevations on Mt. Kinabulu. P. stonei is from lower elevations in the Mulu Hills (Karst formation) area near Kuching, Sarawak. Habitat differences, are mainly that stonei is in a warmer temperature regime.
> 
> ...



I agree with your statement regarding Paph stonei! 

My friend who grows some of the best miltoniopsis in Canada had a stonei from Ray Rand and it use to have several large growth but over the years the plant grew really slow and suffered from root rot. 

It almost died 2 years ago until I took it home. It took another year before it put out any new roots and put out a new growth that is 4 inches across.

He told me that this stonei has long black stripe on the dorsal sepal and it is a very nice clone. Maybe another 5 years before it will flower again!

Mutant's condition should be great for a stonei as most of her Phals are warm grower. Roth still grows well in her condition but will need to up the light intensity.


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## Paphman910 (Sep 20, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> Sure thing! I just had to repot it first, and it had a great root system. I'm _very_ pleased with this young stonei.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Should flower in 3-4 years!


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## Paul (Sep 21, 2013)

Nice seedling!!
I think it should bloom in a couple years. I've had smaller plant that bloomed in 3 years, after blasting the first bud. It looks like a vigourous plant!! :wink:


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## The Mutant (Sep 21, 2013)

Leo Schordje said:


> Growth rates are a function of multiple factors. Rick's, Stones, and other suggestions are great, but nobody specifically mentioned temperatures.
> 
> Paph rothschildianum is from medium to higher elevations on Mt. Kinabulu. P. stonei is from lower elevations in the Mulu Hills (Karst formation) area near Kuching, Sarawak. Habitat differences, are mainly that stonei is in a warmer temperature regime.
> 
> ...


This was actually the major reason I bought one of these guys. I think it was *Paphman910* who posted pictures of his monstrous stonei with five flowers that did it. He responded to a comment (mine or someone's else) that it's a warm grower, and I started thinking if maybe stonei would actually do better on my windowsill, than, for example, roth (or any of the other colder loving Paphs, with the exception of purpuratum). 

The Phals seem to do okay, so it's going to be interesting to see how the stonei does.


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## The Mutant (Oct 12, 2013)

*Stonei faster than roth in my conditions*

Okay, I've been a stonei owner for less than month, but it has grown about 1 cm during this period. This Paph is definitely faster than my roths in my flat, so it seems all the wise things said in this thread so far, were spot on. I love that it grows so fast (for a multi species, although my parishii has it beaten) and hope that it'll continue growing well. So far, I love being a stonei owner, and can't help wondering what took me so long before I got one. 

Thanks dear enablers!


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## Paphman910 (Oct 12, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> Okay, I've been a stonei owner for less than month, but it has grown about 1 cm during this period. This Paph is definitely faster than my roths in my flat, so it seems all the wise things said in this thread so far, were spot on. I love that it grows so fast (for a multi species, although my parishii has it beaten) and hope that it'll continue growing well. So far, I love being a stonei owner, and can't help wondering what took me so long before I got one.
> 
> Thanks dear enablers!



You're welcome! Keep us posted on how it is doing!


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## The Mutant (Oct 12, 2013)

Paphman910 said:


> You're welcome! Keep us posted on how it is doing!


I will!  I still hope it'll stay a bit smaller than your monster though...


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