# And now - scales



## The Mutant (Jan 10, 2015)

Because, why not?

This year hasn't really started out well...

I discovered what is most likely scales on one of the newest acquisitions today. They're incredibly small, but I've read that that probably has to do with their age, round, glossy, reddish brown, blisters on top of some of the leaves of my new Dendrobium. They're impossible to physically remove, but that could be due to their miniscule size and the fact that the leaves are rather soft on the Dend, so they just sink into the leaf tissue instead and get squished.

Luckily, I haven't had the plant for that long; over 24 hours when I discovered the scales and the plant was already in quarantine since it's new. It has been totally isolated now together with its traveling companions and three other new plants which all stood together on a dresser. They didn't stand close together, but I'm not taking any chances. 

All new plants are now being treated and I hope it'll work. I'll keep an extra eye on the rest of the collection, too. If I get a scale infestation I will give up and toss every single plant. I just feel enough is enough. I can't help getting really down by this kind of start to the new year. :sob:


----------



## Justin (Jan 10, 2015)

it's all part of the game. just treat them and re-treat in seven days. if you catch them early before the infestation spreads it's easy to snuff them out.


----------



## Paph_LdyMacBeth (Jan 10, 2015)

Ah yes, that's always disheartening when a new plant comes in with scale. Its honestly, relatively easy to deal with. 
I usually take a cotton ball soaked in rubbing alcohol and gently pull it along the back side of the leaves -this should be enough to pull the scale off with it. 
Then, spray with insecticidal soap every 5-7 days for at least a month to prevent recurrence. The issue with scale is that only the immature stage is affected by the soap, the adults in their shell that you see are not. 
It'll be ok though.


----------



## PaphMadMan (Jan 10, 2015)

A toothbrush can sometimes be an effective way to remove scale from exposed areas. The bristle tips can be just the right size to get under the edge of the scale. Not so good for tight spots though. Choose a soft enough bristle to not damage the leaves.


----------



## The Mutant (Jan 10, 2015)

Thanks guys. I just felt "not again!" when I saw them. So tired of things popping up and I've been overdoing everything lately so I don't deal very well. 

I'm treating them with horticultural oil (didn't know that that's what it was) with Pyrethrum in it. This is what killed the false mites I had earlier and I hope it'll deal with these too. It says it's effective against scale but that it should be applied once a day for three days straight? Seems a bit strange, but the manufacturers hopefully know what they're talking about.

Oh, these are on the surface of the leaves. I think they haven't read where they're supposed to hang out. No scales on the backside of the leaves, I checked with a loupe to be sure.

I'll try that toothbrush-thing tomorrow. I think I might have pushed them too deep into the leaves though, and I couldn't find any more of them.


----------



## cnycharles (Jan 10, 2015)

If you can't remove them it's possible they are just leaf warts. Also if underneath there is no discoloration that may indicate nothing is chewing on the other side 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gonewild (Jan 10, 2015)

What Charles said. Scales should not be impossible to remove and tiny ones basically just rub off. Maybe it's just bumps?


----------



## SlipperFan (Jan 10, 2015)

Exactly what I was thinking, Charles and Lance.

How about a photo, if you can find any more.


----------



## NYEric (Jan 10, 2015)

Yeah; some scale are tenacious but not impossible to remove. Let's see a photo.


----------



## Bjorn (Jan 11, 2015)

Teresa, give usa photo, you know it might be something else? I have a population of scale that I am just now fighting, and one that I am not. Have done that before with sucess and the trick is to use systemic insecticides repeatedly. Sounds worse than it is actually.:viking::viking:
Some of our suppliers have obviously turned "green" and started using predatory organisms. That controls their pests, but as it never eradicates the pest entirely, it forwards the problem to us, the hobby'ists. That is one reason why flasks are preferable in my opinion, they do not transmit pests. Every second time I get new aquisitions they bring something unwanted into the greenhouse. At least it seems like that. Better to grow flasks.


----------



## The Mutant (Jan 11, 2015)

Photos taken today, and I also took one yesterday before I started trying to remove the suspicious looking warts.

This picture was taken before, but I hadn't noticed these spots yet, so I never tried to take any closeups. This is as good as it gets, I'm afraid:







The worst affected leaf (I really don't know how I could miss them, I guess I was too tired):






The whole plant before I noticed the spots, the plant is in a 6cm pot (less than 2½") and the leaves about 4cm-5cm (~1½"-2"). Just to give an idea about the scale (Oh, I'm so phunny!). One leaf got some cold damage I believe:






After I tried to get rid of the spots (and some, is it a tiny piece of sphagnum?):






Found one relatively unharmed one:






And as much of a closeup I can manage with my camera and shaky hands, again after I tried to remove the thingys:







cnycharles said:


> If you can't remove them it's possible they are just leaf warts. Also if underneath there is no discoloration that may indicate nothing is chewing on the other side
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No discolouration, but today some pockmarks where the biggest things/spots were/are. However, this could be caused by me damaging the leaf tissue when trying to remove the suspected scale, and the insecticide/horticultural oil I use has a very bad tendency to increase whatever damage there is (cell collapse, mechanical damage from earlier get bigger and uglier etc. - it's not orchid friendly really). 



SlipperFan said:


> Exactly what I was thinking, Charles and Lance.
> 
> How about a photo, if you can find any more.


Photos fixed.



Bjorn said:


> Teresa, give usa photo, you know it might be something else? I have a population of scale that I am just now fighting, and one that I am not. Have done that before with sucess and the trick is to use systemic insecticides repeatedly. Sounds worse than it is actually.:viking::viking:
> Some of our suppliers have obviously turned "green" and started using predatory organisms. That controls their pests, but as it never eradicates the pest entirely, it forwards the problem to us, the hobby'ists. That is one reason why flasks are preferable in my opinion, they do not transmit pests. Every second time I get new aquisitions they bring something unwanted into the greenhouse. At least it seems like that. Better to grow flasks.


I have gotten some systematic insecticides (finally!) and if it turns out to be scale, I'll use it. It's something they stopped selling here in Sweden that I bought before they did. I just didn't know I could use it on orchids. 

If I had the energy, space and the environmental requirements, I wouldn't mind buying flasks and try to grow baby plants that way. Considering how much I've bought from different vendors I haven't really gotten much in the way of insect pests, so I probably should consider myself lucky.


----------



## Bjorn (Jan 11, 2015)

I am not convinced its scale. Can you scrape them easily off and will the spot look quite normal? Scale appear like hmmm....... scales? And are relatively easy to remove. The scales then look a bit like.....scales......that are loose. Lousy description I know......


----------



## Clark (Jan 11, 2015)

IIRC, when I had scale, the adults were exact copies of one another. Exact.
Ldy MacBeth described my treatment.


----------



## The Mutant (Jan 11, 2015)

Bjorn said:


> I am not convinced its scale. Can you scrape them easily off and will the spot look quite normal? Scale appear like hmmm....... scales? And are relatively easy to remove. The scales then look a bit like.....scales......that are loose. Lousy description I know......


Nope, I can't get them off. All that happens is that they sort of 'sink' into the leaf tissue and become indents instead of blisters/warts however I should describe them. I tried scrape them of at first with some tweezers (I couldn't pluck them away since they were too small), then with a cotton swab, and finally my nails. Nothing worked. I also tried to wipe them away with some soapwater; nothing. 

Picture #5 is what they all looked like before I tried to remove them, except all were different sizes.



Clark said:


> IIRC, when I had scale, the adults were exact copies of one another. Exact.
> Ldy MacBeth described my treatment.


Yeah, but I've seen pictures and read that they are different sizes depending on their maturity. I don't have any rubbing alcohol. Took some time for me to figure out what it was in Swedish, but I've located where to buy some so I'll get it later during the week.


----------



## Secundino (Jan 11, 2015)

That aren't scales. Relax. 
Be whatchfull, but happy.


----------



## NYEric (Jan 11, 2015)

The Mutant said:


> The worst affected leaf (I really don't know how I could miss them, I guess I was too tired):


On the lower leaf at the bottom of the photo there look to be some things that could be scale, but...



The Mutant said:


> Nope, I can't get them off. All that happens is that they sort of 'sink' into the leaf tissue and become indents instead of blisters/warts however I should describe them. I tried scrape them of at first with some tweezers (I couldn't pluck them away since they were too small), then with a cotton swab, and finally my nails. Nothing worked. I also tried to wipe them away with some soapwater; nothing.


this description says it is something else. Scale do not sink into the plant tissues, thank God!!  unfortunately it sounds like you have something causing blisters on the plant. Keep it isolated and see what happens.


----------



## The Mutant (Jan 11, 2015)

Secundino said:


> That aren't scales. Relax.
> Be whatchfull, but happy.


Oh I am, trust me. Yay! Good news! :clap:



NYEric said:


> On the lower leaf at the bottom of the photo there look to be some things that could be scale, but...
> 
> 
> this description says it is something else. Scale do not sink into the plant tissues, thank God!!  unfortunately it sounds like you have something causing blisters on the plant. Keep it isolated and see what happens.


Could it be because it was shipped during cold conditions? The package arrived one day later than the one I got before and it looked like that extra day was spent on a truck, touring the city I live in. All plants were pretty cold when I got them and the 2 Phrags had developed what looked like brown rot/soft rot because of this delay (I immediately removed the infected tissue and it seems to have helped, fingers crossed).


----------



## Erythrone (Jan 11, 2015)

The Mutant said:


> Yeah, but I've seen pictures and read that they are different sizes depending on their maturity.



In fact, "young babies" are tiny crawlers very different from older stages. So tiny we usually don't see them. They are fast moving too. They look somewhat like a little Aphid IMO. For the species I 'raised', further stages were somewhat similar in shape but the older insects were larger, darker and "harder" (thicker) (Brown Soft Scale). For some species, the insect doesn't look the same if the scale is a "she" or a "he" (Boisduval Scale). 

I too think your problem is not linked to scales.


----------



## The Mutant (Jan 11, 2015)

Erythrone said:


> In fact, "young babies" are tiny crawlers very different from older stages. So tiny we usually don't see them. They are fast moving too. They look somewhat like a little Aphid IMO. For the species I 'raised', further stages were somewhat similar in shape but the older insects were larger, darker and "harder" (thicker) (Brown Soft Scale). For some species, the insect doesn't look the same if the scale is a "she" or a "he" (Boisduval Scale).
> 
> I too think your problem is not linked to scales.


Alright, I must have misunderstood what I read and I'm glad for that. Still keeping an eye on it due to those blisters... Or ex-blisters maybe I should call them. 

I looked up Boisduval Scale and it doesn't just fit the bill. The blisters are way too small (the largest ones were less than 1mm big) and if they are anything, they must be females since they don't move (nothing moves on the plant, I've checked the plant with a loupe and a flashlight).

But I'll keep it and its colleagues isolated because of those blisters. Need to keep an eye on them.


----------



## Happypaphy7 (Jan 11, 2015)

Photos are too blurry to see what exactly those are, but to me most of them look like bumps on the leaves.
They are rather common on dendrobiums and phal leaves.

Scales also come off rather easy. Just scrape them off with fingernails and they come off.
Your description of how difficult it is to remove but rather they would go into the leaf tissue also suggests that they are not bugs.
You are just damaging the leaves that way. lol


----------



## The Mutant (Jan 11, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Photos are too blurry to see what exactly those are, but to me most of them look like bumps on the leaves.
> They are rather common on dendrobiums and phal leaves.
> 
> Scales also come off rather easy. Just scrape them off with fingernails and they come off.
> ...


Yep, true. I think I just solved the mystery however. Removed a rotten leaf and had to cut off pretty much of a bulb to do it and what did I find? I slug... Honestly don't know if that's better or not.


----------



## Erythrone (Jan 11, 2015)

I prefer dealing with slugs than with Boisduval scales!!!


----------



## SlipperFan (Jan 11, 2015)

I agree: Not scale. However, not slugs, either. Nor damage from slugs chewing.


----------



## gonewild (Jan 11, 2015)

You said the spots were like blisters.
This might be Edema.


----------



## cnycharles (Jan 11, 2015)

I've seen various red spots on dendrobium leaves before


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Happypaphy7 (Jan 11, 2015)

Erythrone said:


> I prefer dealing with slugs than with Boisduval scales!!!



OMG, sooooo true! 
I'm still recovering from the horror of white scales from years ago! 
You scrub everything off, and spray, and think they are all gone, only to find them a few months later. and onto other plants!

I had to toss them all and that was the end of them.


----------



## The Mutant (Jan 12, 2015)

Erythrone said:


> I prefer dealing with slugs than with Boisduval scales!!!


That's good to hear! The slugs seems easier to prevent from spreading, at least in an indoor environment, no miniscule air-current riders in the case of slugs.



SlipperFan said:


> I agree: Not scale. However, not slugs, either. Nor damage from slugs chewing.



I think it's like Lance says:


gonewild said:


> You said the spots were like blisters.
> This might be Edema.


Yes and edema was my first thought so I think that's what it was. At least all of this led to me discovering the slug before it managed to damage more than the newest bulb, so it was not in vain.

Oh, and to repot the Den and its Paph friends only to confirm they all had a lot of rotted roots and were grossly overpotted. So in the end, I hope the results will be good. I just hope my little Den survive its very rough start at my place.


----------

