# Is it longifolium hincksianum?



## goldenrose (Mar 24, 2009)

I posted this in my frag fever thread, some may have missed it. It's time for Jean-Pierre's suggestion because now I'm confused!
Read on & add your 2 cents worth!










Question/quiz - on a sales table I saw a miniature version of this, flower wise. The foliage was almost grassy, like ecaudorense & only about 6" tall. It was labeled hincksianum but seeing this was the same vendor I got the Cardinale from that was labeled Schroderae, NO WAY! Any idea what it might have been? It was cute as could be!


----------



## goldenrose (Mar 24, 2009)

Here is Jean-Pierre's post:
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=144332#post144332


----------



## goldenrose (Mar 24, 2009)

Yes, I saw it in bloom. The plant size was about 6" tall, the flower size was maybe 3'" across with it's outstretched petals. The color of the flower had more red like mine does but shape wise it's like both of ours.
I guess the first question is what is the difference between a regular longifolium & the hincksianum variety? I'm under the impression, the richer color? Second question - how can this little mini version, having a different plant habit, be called a hincksianum too?


----------



## parvi_17 (Mar 24, 2009)

I posted this on the other thread, but I'll post it here too.

I have a plant called longifolium f. gracile that is a mini longifolium, and looks the same as Jean-Pierre's plant and matches your description. On phragweb.info there is a page on it:

http://www.phragweb.info/phragmipedium/species/display_species_phrag.asp?phrag_id=182

BTW, the plant is in spike; I'll post photos when it blooms.


----------



## smartie2000 (Mar 24, 2009)

hincksianum is a dwarf variety according to my limited knowledge. I have a Eric Young using hincksianum, and she said it is the compact lonigolium


----------



## Leo Schordje (Mar 24, 2009)

Not all longifolium are hincksianum

ALL hincksianum are longifolium. 

Phrag hincksianum is a geographic race of the wide spread species longifolium. (think hincksianum is a subset or subspecies)

Phrag longifolium includes the wide leaved forms from Colombia & Venezuela that can have flowers stems 5 feet tall down to the little Ecuadorian races with narrow sedge shaped leaves and total less than 12 inches tall. Hincksianum is the Panama race of longifolium with narrow sedge shape leaves and is about 24 inches tall.

My taxonomic recollection has not been updated to the 21st century - I have not read much taxonomy the last 5 years so my info is a little out of date. I believe there is an article out there citing why hincksianum is not a valid name, also gracile, and proposing the correct names, with a clearer definition of what constitutes what - but I have not read it yet - so I don't know the latest. But the name hincksianum was in common use when I was reading the literature - so my comments reflect the way the name has been used through to 2001. 

What is really key - these names are tied to geographic regions of origin. If you have a plant, and you don't know where it came from, you may NEVER be able to say with certainty what the plant is beyond calling it longifolium. The small forms of Phrag longifolium from Ecuador commonly called the variety gracile are difficult to differentiate from the somewhat taller growing form from Panama - but the vouchered speciemens truely known to be from one location or the other are definitely different subspecies, and clearly not of the same origin. Once they get mixed up in cultivation there is no way to separate them reliably. There is no vouchered DNA referance database that can be used. One would have to go through the expense of going to each country and collecting DNA there in order to create a reliable vouchered DNA database. Unfortunately the money is not available to do this. Unfortunately what people tell you about the origin of any particular plant in cultivation may be suspect - if there were any mis-recollections or mis-statements as the plant changes hands, you can end up holding a mis-labelled plant. 

To my eye, your photo and description of a plant whose vegetation is only 6 inches tall more closely suggests the subspecies gracile which is of Ecuadorian origin, rather than the taller hincksianum which is of Panamanian origin. 

But a badly grown hicnksianum might be shorter than a well grown gracile. With plants in cultivation it is often impossible to say anything more specific than that's a nice Phrag. or maybe that's a nice Phrag longifolium.


----------



## tomkalina (Mar 24, 2009)

I looked at this plant closely as well and think it could be something called Phrag, longifolium var Hartwegii that I once saw blooming in Dick Clement's collection back in the day. The leaves on the mystery plant seemed wider than I would expect for a typical "gracile" and a lot shorter, and the flower was smaller than a typical longifolium. I wish someone like Cribb or Olaf would publish a book on this Genus in total. Wouldn't it be great to have something like Cribb's "The Genus Paphiopedilum" covering Phrag. species? Long overdue, IMHO. 

Thanks, Tom


----------



## parvi_17 (Mar 24, 2009)

This taxonomy gets confusing but my dwarf longifolium is labelled as "gracile", and I always thought that hincksianum was big and gracile is small, as Leo said. As to how big hincksianum is compared to regular longifolium, I'm not really sure.


----------



## Leo Schordje (Mar 24, 2009)

small to big

gracile (under 12 inches) - hincksianum - roezlii - longifolium (up to 5 ft tall)

I am not sure where hartwegii fits in, I am not sure I ever saw a real one. I did not see the Dick Clements plant in bloom. The plant I had labelled as hartwegii also had a tag saying gracile. Also had plants labelled hirtzii that were clearly longifolium var gracile. Not sure what to think on all that.


----------



## NYEric (Mar 24, 2009)

I want a pot of the little one; did you buy it and who was selling?


----------



## kentuckiense (Mar 24, 2009)

tomkalina said:


> Wouldn't it be great to have something like Cribb's "The Genus Paphiopedilum" covering Phrag. species? Long overdue, IMHO.



I agree, but have it include all of the neotropical slippers! I've heard rumors that one is in the works.


----------



## goldenrose (Mar 24, 2009)

NYEric said:


> I want a pot of the little one; did you buy it and who was selling?


I'm glad Tom saw it as well. It was a cute as can be, I was so tempted BUT ....
no I didn't buy it, this was the same vendor at the Madison show that I got the so-called Schroderae from, that turned out to be probably Cardinale, according the forum members here. I felt I already gave him $35 for technically a noID, did I want to do it again?
Fool me once, same on you,
fool me twice, shame on me ....


Thanks for the history lesson, once again Leo!


----------



## SlipperKing (Mar 24, 2009)

Rose,
Here is the thread I put in last spring (I think). Hopefully I'll be able to post these flowers again with better pics
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6774


----------



## SlipperFan (Mar 24, 2009)

I agree with Tom, that a definitive book on Phrags is long past due. Right now, the best source is phragweb, but it would be good to have a book.


----------



## goldenrose (Mar 25, 2009)

SlipperKing said:


> Rose,
> Here is the thread I put in last spring (I think). Hopefully I'll be able to post these flowers again with better pics
> http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6774


Thanks Rick! Yours has the pinkish/red blush to the pouch, whereas mine does not. What's interesting is this morning when I looked at it, the petals have twisted over the past couple of days. It's the philipinense of phrags!


----------



## SlipperKing (Mar 25, 2009)

Cool Rose, the twisting petal thing is unique!


----------



## Ernie (Mar 25, 2009)

I thought gracile was less colorful (less red/pink) too? Hinksianum has been described to me as the most colorful of the longifoliums, but on modest to big plants? I'm certainly not up to speed on my green phrags though. 

-Ernie


----------



## goldenrose (Mar 26, 2009)

Actually it added one twist from when the photo was taken.


SlipperKing said:


> Cool Rose, the twisting petal thing is unique!


:rollhappy: probably due to the daytime high of 62 in my house!


----------

