# Critter Help



## Corbin (Aug 27, 2008)

have a small collection of long tailed mealies, scale, and what I think are mites. The mite conclusion is based on the pitting on the underside of the leaves and comparisons to pictures in books. I also have some small orange/reddish brown little bugs that zip across the leaves and down into the media. They are too big I think to be mites as from what I have read you have to have a magnifying glass to see the mites. 

I have been doing the alcohol and Q-tip thing but the infestations are getting out of control what with the introduction of the “mites” on a plant I recently acquired from what I thought was supposed to be a very reputable dealer. 

Anyway I have been reading several threads on our forum and think, from what I have read and from one member I PM-ed, that a Bayer product with Imidacloprid will be safe enough to use on my apartment and being systemic, should enable me to get the infestations under control. BUT and this is really the main question, there were several remarks in the thread, from regular contributors, that indicated this product should not be used if you had mites. Here are some examples:

An example: “and definitely don’t use if there is any mite issue.” 
“and yes, it did cause a mite explosion on my phals!”
“it is a combination of fertility drugs and Viagra for spider mites”

Is this really the case and if so what do I use when I have mites and other critters too?


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## goldenrose (Aug 27, 2008)

Sorry, I have no idea what small orange/reddish brown little bugs that zip across the leaves and down into the media could be & I'm thankful I haven't experienced them. I don't have experience with the Bayer product, I've heard the results go both ways. One product may not get them all, just as one antibiotic doesn't get all the different bacterias. It's time to bring out the big guns. If you want to keep chasing, I'd try neem oil, that ought to smother them plus a few drops of dishwashing soap won't hurt either.


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## Candace (Aug 27, 2008)

You would want to use a miticide. I've got Mavrik Aquaflow but have never used it since mites aren't a problem for me. 

Personally, and I've said this before, I think the Bayer products aren't worth the packaging they're sent out in-but if you've read the other threads you know my opinion. If you're having a huge problem with critters don't you want stop it now?? Forget the Home Depot products that have less than 1% active ingredient,are mostly glycerine and water, and buy what kills them dead right away. Not 6 months from now.

I would move all your plants outside or into your garage and spray them. Then in 7-10 days depending on the directions of the product, move them back out and do again. Orthene WP is a systemic and works great, but stinks to high heaven. But, who cares if you do it outside. Merit75(Imidacloprid), a systemic used in conjunction with a miticide or Enstar(insect growth inhibitor) will do the trick effectively. And if effective is what you want then use the correct tool;> 

Go to www.rosemania.com


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## rdhed (Aug 27, 2008)

Ed...Are the mites possibly 'false mites'? Damage shows up as silvery pitting on the leaves. I had an outbreak a couple years ago and treated with a product called Triazicide and treated every 10-14 days for approx. 8 to 12 weeks. Also making sure my plants did not touch when placing them back in my grow area. Everything was taken to the bathroom and treated while wearing a mask with the window open and door closed before and after treating until air clears. I am now pest free. If I see anything I now hit the 'hot spot' with Murphy's Oil Soap/Alcohol/Water mixed in equal parts. Also, at the time they attacked my phals. and the population seemed to explode I unpotted them all and made a dip of Neem Oil w/dish detergent. After unpotting they got forcefully rinsed under the tap, dipped, and repotted. That is when I started treatment with the Triazicide on next watering. Seems like alot of work but I only lost one phal. Good luck...pests are a pain. 

--Allen--


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## NYEric (Aug 27, 2008)

Orthene WP, Triazicide, where's a city boy to get this stuff from???


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## Heather (Aug 27, 2008)

NYEric said:


> Orthene WP, Triazicide, where's a city boy to get this stuff from???



Ever heard of something called the internet, Eric?


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Aug 27, 2008)

How many plants are we talking about here?

I've been through all the pesticides you can imagine with surprisingly poor results. I'd usually cycle through Malathion, Diazinon, and Chlordane and still have bugs. I've used alcohol and the Bayer...both worthless on my collection but apparently work for some.

My best so far and current treatment is to wash the plants with warm water as thoroughly as possible in the sink to remove all the bugs I can see, and then hose them down with Safer Insecticidal Soap. It doesn't eliminate them but keeps their population down much more than any other things I've done.

Ant killing syrups are also a must since those little %&^[email protected] will be the scale and mealies personal chauffeur to new and unaffected plants.


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## Candace (Aug 27, 2008)

Eric, I gave you a link. They carry the Merit65 and OrtheneWP. I don't know about the others.


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## Leo Schordje (Aug 27, 2008)

I buy all my toxic chemicals from 

http://www.hummert.com/catalog.asp?C=65&SC=1

My prefernce is for Mavrik & Enstar II cocktail. It is pricey, but it works, if you save 4 Paph seedlings @ $25 each you have the cost of the two pestacides combined. The Mavrik is relatively cheap, the Enstar is pricey but I feel it has really cut down on how often I have to spray. I'm down to two fall sprayings, 10 days apart. That's it, the rest of the year the collection stays clean. I put plants outside in summer, the fall spraying is to clean up as they come in. 

Do not use Enstar II alone. It was designed to be part of a cocktail. You must use it as a Mixed spray with some other pesticide that does the quick kill. Enstar works well with most of the modern pesticides. Mavrik and Decathalon are the 2 that I use most often.


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## PaphMadMan (Aug 27, 2008)

Jon in SW Ohio said:


> I've been through all the pesticides you can imagine with surprisingly poor results. I'd usually cycle through Malathion, Diazinon, and Chlordane and still have bugs. I've used alcohol and the Bayer...both worthless on my collection but apparently work for some.



Chlordane? Seriously? Not since 1988 I hope... :sob:


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Aug 27, 2008)

I don't mess around lol


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## PaphMadMan (Aug 27, 2008)

Jon in SW Ohio said:


> I don't mess around lol



I suppose you can assert a right to use it in small quantity on your own property with due care, but I must remind everyone else that there is no legal use of Chlordane in the US, and no safe exposure level.


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## Candace (Aug 27, 2008)

Jon, be sure not to confuse that with your moonshine jug.


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## Heather (Aug 27, 2008)

:rollhappy:


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## rdhed (Aug 28, 2008)

Funny Candace...I had the same thought as I started to scroll down and caught sight of the neck of that glass jug. :rollhappy::rollhappy::rollhappy:

--Allen--


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## NYEric (Aug 28, 2008)

Love this forum!


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## Candace (Aug 28, 2008)

Oh, and I forgot to say something about dipping plants. That's not a good idea. It spreads virus and other pathogens. Especially if you are dipping phals and cattleyas and most importantly if they are from Taiwan. Researchers trying to test for a new "Taiwan Virus" found 33% of the phal crop from Taiwan they tested were infected with either OSRV and/or CymMV present. 

http://www.floracultureinternationa...n=com_content&task=view&id=436&Itemid=7&ed=40


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## goldenrose (Aug 28, 2008)

YIKES! Remember this poor guy is in an apartment and we don't know how many plants he's dealing with! He's stuck between a rock & a hard place. The so called 'safer' products don't work as well but the 'big guns' that are recommended come with - wear protective clothing, eye protection, a respirator & don't re-enter for 12-24 hours! The best advice was to move them outside or do you have more than 1 bathroom? A bath tub or shower stall, depending on the numbers, might make it easier, as long as you have someplace to GO for the next 12-24 hrs.!


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## cnycharles (Aug 28, 2008)

one point; if you have a chemical in your possession that you bought legally, you can have and use it forever as per the instructions on the last legal label. you can't sell it, and you would have a hard time properly disposing of it unless the local trash and other collection service had an amnesty collection of things not otherwise able to dispose of, as long as you could accurately label and identify what it was. means you can use ddt if *you* bought it when it was still legal.

enstar II is labeled for use in interiorscapes, hence an apartment is okay. the bayer rose and flower is also labeled for use indoors. neem oil also of course is allowable indoors. can mix enstar with just about anything; enstar itself is not toxic, insect pheremones and such. what is nasty is the petroleum carrier that makes the enstar mixable in water. there are also some bonide systemic houseplant insecticides that are labeled for in house use, but it is very strong and must use very carefully especially if animals or children could chew on plants or come in contact with spots or splashes from application.

i've been told that if you see something that is mite-like but is moving very quickly, that they are predatory mites. now I don't have enough experience or info about flat or false mites to know if they move quickly or not... 

usually the best first thing to do before spraying plants, is to take them to your bathtub or shower and blast them as hard as you can with water, such that the plant can take without damage. that will get rid of as many bugs before you have to treat. maybe you do this a few times, then spray. you could put them in the tub, blast away for a while, then let them sit. the remaining ones will likely look for higher ground, then you can blast again. this works for mealybugs especially if you spray into the crevices where they hide; they will want to get some air and then you can get after them as well. safer's soaps are irritants, and often are used when fogging plants to get the bugs to move around so that they are more likely to come in contact with the chemicals to kill them

hope some of this helps


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Aug 28, 2008)

Forgot about the small fast movers. In my collection those are harmless Springtails.


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## Elena (Aug 28, 2008)

I received a plant with a few mealies  a while ago and used Bug Clear (I think it's by Miracle Gro). It's suitable for indoor use and, unlike many other sprays, is effective against spider mites as well as other pests. I'm not sure if it's available in US but it worked an absolute treat.


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## dave b (Aug 28, 2008)

Asides from the drooling and weird twitches of head and limbs, Jon seems to have suffered no ill affects from his bug killing experiences. 

As Jon mentioned, ive also had good luck with Safer soap.


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## likespaphs (Aug 29, 2008)

beneficial insects!


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## NYEric (Aug 29, 2008)

OK but how big does your collection have to be to justify the amount of insects you get. I remember researching and it was ladybugs by the pint!


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## likespaphs (Aug 29, 2008)

right. it is very important to identify what you have and what will take it out. i don't think ladybugs are all that effective but.... (i do have some larvae out back and i keep stopping people to show them how they look). ladybugs can also be stored in the fridge for a couple months...
the other thing is that they're typically not a quick kill...

green methods site. lots of great info....


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## NYEric (Aug 29, 2008)

Actually ladybug larvae are very effective on mealies, are they good against scale?


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## likespaphs (Aug 29, 2008)

i think lacewing larva are more effective but need to be reapplied.
i dunno about scale. there is a beetle specifically for scale, though. i just got some spider mite predatory beetles. they're tiny!


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## NYEric (Aug 29, 2008)

I just went thru the collection w/ alcohol and swabs. If I continue to find problems maybe I'll look at beneficial insects. Are they seasonal?


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## Corbin (Sep 3, 2008)

Candace said:


> You would want to use a miticide. I've got Mavrik Aquaflow but have never used it since mites aren't a problem for me.
> 
> Personally, and I've said this before, I think the Bayer products aren't worth the packaging they're sent out in-but if you've read the other threads you know my opinion. If you're having a huge problem with critters don't you want stop it now?? Forget the Home Depot products that have less than 1% active ingredient,are mostly glycerine and water, and buy what kills them dead right away. Not 6 months from now.
> 
> ...



I agree with you Candace but the plants grow in my living room and I do not have a garage. I have postage stamp balcony that gets some strong light so though I could take them out and spray them I really can not leave them out very long. I do not want to use anything that could possibly harm me when they are brought back into the living room.


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## Corbin (Sep 3, 2008)

goldenrose said:


> YIKES! Remember this poor guy is in an apartment and we don't know how many plants he's dealing with! He's stuck between a rock & a hard place. The so called 'safer' products don't work as well but the 'big guns' that are recommended come with - wear protective clothing, eye protection, a respirator & don't re-enter for 12-24 hours! The best advice was to move them outside or do you have more than 1 bathroom? A bath tub or shower stall, depending on the numbers, might make it easier, as long as you have someplace to GO for the next 12-24 hrs.!



One bathroom. One L shaped room that is kitchen, living room and bed room. One closet. I have 37 plants and only add 1 or 2 new plants a month. So far, knock on wood, I have not lost a plant.


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## goldenrose (Sep 3, 2008)

So what did you decide on? How are the plants doing?


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## NYEric (Sep 4, 2008)

OK, the Merit seems to be a solution for scale and mealies but I'm a little leery about using in the apartment and also having to mix it, spray plants [in the shower] them move plants out, move more plants in, repeat, etc...


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## cnycharles (Sep 4, 2008)

merit isn't too bad of a chemical as far as people go; actually you could get the merit that is usually applied to the pot, and/or the mixable with water and just put it in your stock water. it will be taken up. it has a re-entry interval so it will break down. also, the bayer rose and flower is labeled to use indoors. a possible solution would be to put plastic around a window that you could vent out of, put a fan in the window to blow out, put plastic underneath the plants and spray them. let everything dry and sit for 12 hours or a day and you would be all set to move them back.


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## Corbin (Sep 5, 2008)

Thanks for all the comments. 

I have used safers soap and it works reasonably well but you have to actually get it on the insect. 

I think I am going to get some of the Bayer "Rose and Bloom", Bayer "Tree abd Shrub" and posibbaly Bayer "Complete Insect Killer" though the latter seems a little stronger than I probably want to use. I want a "mild" systemic that I can spray with every so often and kill everything with the repeated sprayings.


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## NYEric (Sep 5, 2008)

Me, I'm going for the Merit 75 and damn the neighbors!!! :evil:


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## Candace (Sep 5, 2008)

Merit 75 is a contact systemic. Meaning it doesn't have to enter the root system to be effective. It simply has to be sprayed on the leaves (if you get some on the roots that's fine). Spray the leaves until just before run-off. That's why this product is such a good one for hydro and semi hydro folks. I like systemics in general, but always worry that the plant sitting in a solution will get burned or harmed in some way. The tests for Orthene etc. aren't done plants with a water resevoir.

So, Merit is a very good choice since you don't fill up the pot with the product.

Apartment growers get my sympathy. You seem to have very few options.


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## NYEric (Sep 5, 2008)

Where's my "ity:"?


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## cnycharles (Sep 5, 2008)

Corbin said:


> I want a *"mild"* systemic that I can spray with every so often and kill everything with the repeated sprayings.



Hello Ed,
Though this might seem like a friendlier solution to the problem, you may find out that your insect population will instead become resistant to the chemicals you are spraying. If you make them sick but they live (or some of them live) this is a recipe for creating resistant bugs. Something either needs to kill them dead or not come in contact with them (and let them live to become resistant), to have the best overall results. Maybe what would accomplish the same thing as you desire would be to use two different (or three) chemicals or sprays that have different modes of action, like systemic to be taken into the bug, a growth regulator that will inhibit molting of skin shells and oils or such to burn or smother the bugs. Contact can be included with systemic, you don't have to have the bug eat it but they must come in contact with it like you said. You can use these types in rotation, or some can be used together (called a tank mix) but should check first to see if certain types can be used together. This type of treatment is highly suggested by many and gives the best results with the least risk of creating superbugs.

Another point to the marathon/merit systemic imidacloprid good knowledge to have when spraying is that imidacloprid will not be taken up into flowers, so if your bugs are hiding there almost exclusively then the chemical won't kill them. It may be a good idea to just remove flowers if possible before treating with imidicloprid insecticides; sometimes we have to do this at work if we are growing gerberas and the @#%^&* thrips will spend their time in the flowers where the chemical isn't taken up. Also Merit can be taken up into the plant through the leaves, but there are other formulations that are better designed for being taken into the plant and translocated from one side of the leaf to the other and through the plant. I think Marathon II is one of those, but of course more expensive than Merit. I don't know of the general equivalent to Marathon II...

Also just remembered that Marathon was one of the chemicals that was pretty safe to use when the plants were in flower, it was not prone to causing plant or flower burn, though you should test all chemicals here and there on plants in your own setting before using in a widespread fashion. So, would not be too concerned about drenching, as marathon merit was originally pelletized for sitting on top of a flower pot and watered in, and the best results were for long-term contact in the pot before watering again. So would seem fairly safe, though again should test and check results before using in your setting. A few years ago there is a rumor that someone I know used a lawn insecticide and placed the pellets on top of the pots, put moss on top to keep moist and allow to be taken up longer, and then went on vacation. Worked very well at the time, there was long-term contact with the chemical to the plants and the only problems were with that person's leaving the pellets on top of the pots for a long time which led to rot and death of plants because of this (I guess orchids don't like mulching).... worked very well for scale except for those on the ends of very long flower spikes.

hope this helps some, good luck!


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## Candace (Sep 5, 2008)

> Another point to the marathon/merit systemic imidacloprid good knowledge to have when spraying is that imidacloprid will not be taken up into flowers



Thanks, I didn't know that.


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## cnycharles (Sep 5, 2008)

you're welcome, and looking back at your previous post I now see that the merit you mention is likely the same as marathon II which moves through the leaves well


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## Corbin (Sep 9, 2008)

I bought the Bayer Advanced Rose & Bloom and sprayed all the orchids. Directions say that after one hour it is rain proof which I took it to mean that after an hour the plant had absorbed all it was going to or enough to be effective. It also said that it kept killing for a month or so (do not have the bottle her at work and do not remember exactly) but that for heavy infestations it should be reapplied at 7 to 14 days intervals. 

I did notice, when I was spraying, that the "Dragons Blood" I applied to the bottom of the leaves that had the pitting from mites, I think, was stopped and not spreading anymore. Question. Now that the mites seem to have been killed do I wash the Dragons Blood off?


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## NYEric (Sep 9, 2008)

Why? It doesn't hurt anything.


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## Corbin (Sep 17, 2008)

I remember that in one of the several discussions about dragons’ blood someone said that one of the reasons that it worked was because it smothered the insects and kept fungus spores from spreading by sealing them in. If this is true is it not sealing the openings through which the plant "breathes" and transpires moisture? I know on mine the dragon’s blood looks like varnish and one leaf is 80% coated and another, on the same plant, is 50% coated.


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## NYEric (Sep 17, 2008)

Ask Mr. Gonewild!


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## goldenrose (Sep 17, 2008)

Corbin said:


> I remember that in one of the several discussions about dragons’ blood someone said that one of the reasons that it worked was because it smothered the insects and kept fungus spores from spreading by sealing them in. If this is true is it not sealing the openings through which the plant "breathes" and transpires moisture? I know on mine the dragon’s blood looks like varnish and one leaf is 80% coated and another, on the same plant, is 50% coated.



Where did you get your DB? The first time I got DB it was in an alcohol base & it is kinda thick & goey. The DB from Lance is not.
I doubt that it smothers, it wouldn't take much to drown an insect or a spore, to me that's alot different.


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## Corbin (Sep 20, 2008)

I purchased it from "gonewild"

Lance are reading this?


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## Hien (Sep 20, 2008)

Corbin said:


> I bought the Bayer Advanced Rose & Bloom and sprayed all the orchids. Directions say that after one hour it is rain proof which I took it to mean that after an hour the plant had absorbed all it was going to or enough to be effective. It also said that it kept killing for a month or so (do not have the bottle her at work and do not remember exactly) but that for heavy infestations it should be reapplied at 7 to 14 days intervals.
> 
> I did notice, when I was spraying, that the "Dragons Blood" I applied to the bottom of the leaves that had the pitting from mites, I think, was stopped and not spreading anymore. Question. Now that the mites seem to have been killed do I wash the Dragons Blood off?



I put some Liquid Bayer Advanced in the hydroponic to get rid of the mealies . I am very surprised that the mites (the other problem) seems to leave those plants' new growths alone now (I don't think Bayer advance listed for mites, that is why I am surprised).
I start to have new unblemished growth , which impossible before. I will watch it a little bit more and maybe put Bayer Advance liquid to the rest of the collection.


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## Corbin (Sep 21, 2008)

I lost two spikes, which I contribute to getting/leaving too much of the insecticide in the crown. One was the only venustum I have and one of the few orchids I have that blooms in the winter.


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