# Cymbidium goeringii



## Silvan (Mar 11, 2015)

Cute miniature cymbidium. Nothing out of the ordinary but I like it a lot. 
I have two more that I'll post in this thread when they'll flower. This one was
in a hurry as last year it flowered at the end of march.. anyway here it is:


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## OrchidIsa (Mar 11, 2015)

Oh yeah! It's a beautiful one! Congrats!


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## Linus_Cello (Mar 11, 2015)

Where'd you buy these from? I'm guessing a canadian source.
I would like to try these outdoors all year around; supposedly it works in zone 6b/7a (I would of course bury these in leaves like my potted cyps and calanthe).


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## Silvan (Mar 11, 2015)

OrchidIsa said:


> Oh yeah! It's a beautiful one! Congrats!



Thanks and it's also fragrant! My other green one for some reason isn't. 



Linus_Cello said:


> Where'd you buy these from? I'm guessing a canadian source.
> I would like to try these outdoors all year around; supposedly it works in zone 6b/7a (I would of course bury these in leaves like my potted cyps and calanthe).



I think florapeculia.ca sells to the US. But I bought mine on eBay. 
Not sure about growing them outside in a 6b zone. I don't even grow them outside during summer/fall season and they still manage to bloom.


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## SlipperFan (Mar 11, 2015)

Striking markings.


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## naoki (Mar 11, 2015)

Pretty, Silvan! It is fairly large even if it is "miniature" for Cymbidium, isn't it?

Linus, New World Orchids has some listed. Ten Shin Gardens usually have quite a lot of selection. seed engei had quite a few varieties in the latest Jan 2015 price list (they are not listed in their web page). Most are around $50-60.
Haruippin
Kakushoso
Oujiso
Keienbai
Shikichou
Suippin
Ouzaki
Kimisakushun
Suikaso
Shuryu
Kakushoso
Teikan
Bundanso
Kakushouso
Setsuzan
Itoran-hakka
Setsuzan
Soubai


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## mrhappyrotter (Mar 11, 2015)

I want one of these guys. I've resisted temptation, since I haven't had a lot of luck with cymbidiums in the past. Supposedly, C. goeringii is hardy in my area, perhaps with some protection and mulching.


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## Migrant13 (Mar 11, 2015)

That's nice. Is one flower per spike typical for this species?


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## abax (Mar 11, 2015)

Gorgeous flower. I love and try to collect ensifoliums, but
it's quite hard to find them since Maisie Orchids is no longer
in business. I don't think I'd put any of the Chinese Cyms.
outside, even the cool-growing ones. They're quite particular about watering and they don't need a lot of direct sun like standard Cyms.

*I sure would like to sniff that beauty.


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## lazzaret (Mar 12, 2015)

Linus_Cello said:


> Where'd you buy these from? I'm guessing a canadian source.
> I would like to try these outdoors all year around; supposedly it works in zone 6b/7a (I would of course bury these in leaves like my potted cyps and calanthe).



maybe with a "good" leaf litter....i have cymbidium ensifolium which lives in pot last year outdoor. There is some damages but it's vigorous and it seems well. (zone 8)


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## Silvan (Mar 12, 2015)

Thanks all for your kind words.


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## Silvan (Mar 12, 2015)

abax said:


> Gorgeous flower. I love and try to collect ensifoliums, but
> it's quite hard to find them since Maisie Orchids is no longer
> in business. I don't think I'd put any of the Chinese Cyms.
> outside, even the cool-growing ones. They're quite particular about watering and they don't need a lot of direct sun like standard Cyms.
> ...



I bought an ensifolium from Ten Shin. They have a great selection. If the member "Lazzaret" can grow them outside in a zone8, maybe there's hope. But I wouldn't try it with goeringii.. 



Migrant13 said:


> That's nice. Is one flower per spike typical for this species?



I'm no expert, but I think that goeringii is always a single flower per spike and the ensifolium is the multifloral type.


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## Silvan (Mar 12, 2015)

mrhappyrotter said:


> I want one of these guys. I've resisted temptation, since I haven't had a lot of luck with cymbidiums in the past. Supposedly, C. goeringii is hardy in my area, perhaps with some protection and mulching.



If you ever succumb to the temptation, be sure to get a multi growths plant (at least two, ideally three growths).


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## Silvan (Mar 12, 2015)

naoki said:


> Pretty, Silvan! It is fairly large even if it is "miniature" for Cymbidium, isn't it?
> 
> Linus, New World Orchids has some listed. Ten Shin Gardens usually have quite a lot of selection. seed engei had quite a few varieties in the latest Jan 2015 price list (they are not listed in their web page). Most are around $50-60.



Thanks Naoki for the links! I had forgotten that Ten Shin was selling those. Do you know (or anyone) if tortisepalum and lianpan are the same?


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## Stone (Mar 13, 2015)

Silvan said:


> Cute miniature cymbidium. Nothing out of the ordinary but I like it a lot.
> I have two more that I'll post in this thread when they'll flower. This one was
> in a hurry as last year it flowered at the end of march.. anyway here it is:



Nicely grown and beautiful.


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## naoki (Mar 13, 2015)

Silvan said:


> Thanks Naoki for the links! I had forgotten that Ten Shin was selling those. Do you know (or anyone) if tortisepalum and lianpan are the same?



Silvan, I looked up Du Puy & Cribb (2007) "The Genus Cymbidium" (I don't know why I have this book). According to them, C. lianpan is nomem nudum (description published with insufficient description?), and is listed under C. tortisepalum var. tortisepalum. The distribution of this species is quite interesting: fairly disjunct with this variety in Taiwan, and the other variety (var. longibracteatum) in Sichuan region.


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## naoki (Mar 13, 2015)

Linus_Cello said:


> I would like to try these outdoors all year around; supposedly it works in zone 6b/7a (I would of course bury these in leaves like my potted cyps and calanthe).



Linus, I was looking around a bit of info about this, and it might work. The northern most distribution of C. goeringi appears to be Okushiri Island in Hokkaidou, which is zone 7b/8a. I think the northern end of Calanthe discolor is similar to it. In your other thread, your C. discolor is overwintering successfully for a couple years, so it might work for Cym, too. But the northern end of Japan has high winter precipitation, and the plants are well insulated by snow. It would be nice to find ones originated from Northern region.

Japanese people recommend keeping at least 32F for Japanese C. goeringi and 41F for Chinese ones.


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## Linus_Cello (Mar 13, 2015)

naoki said:


> But the northern end of Japan has high winter precipitation, and the plants are well insulated by snow. It would be nice to find ones originated from Northern region.
> 
> Japanese people recommend keeping at least 32F for Japanese C. goeringi and 41F for Chinese ones.



Bury in 8-12 inches of leaves should be the same as snow? (I guess even more for the tall leaves?)


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## Ozpaph (Mar 14, 2015)

very pretty flower. Are they all 'semi-peloric'??


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## abax (Mar 15, 2015)

Growing outside is chancy for most of the Chinese Cyms. and the Japanese traditionally keep them in a special nook
in the home to enjoy the grace of the leaves and the splendid look of a three growth plant in special Cym. pots. Damaged leaves from outside growing would scandalize Oriental growers who enjoy the classic beauty
of the plant with or without flowers. The object being
grace and serenity.

Oh, forgot to add that there's a Chinese Cym. grower on ebay, but
the vendor uses the traditional Chinese/Japanese names and I have
no idea which ensifolium is which concerning color.


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## eaborne (Mar 17, 2015)

Neat flower!


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## jokerpass (Apr 5, 2020)

Just a summary of all the messages I read about Asian/Oriental Cymbidiums. Here is a culture tips for Cymbidium goeringii. The same applies for Cymbidium sinense and Cymbidium ensifolium, the only exception is that the winter temperature must maintain above 10C (50F).
First: You want to grow them outside in a shaded sheltered spot as long as possible, I grow them outside from mid-May until Halloween (Oct 31st). I live in Toronto Canada. From mid-May until Halloween, all Cymbidium goeringii receive only morning sun from sunrise to no later than 11:30am.
By mid May, the temperature is more stable in the day and night, and has no dry wind like in early spring. In Toronto, the summer temperature can reach 30C (85F) and they love it.
The flower buds for Cymbidium goeringii is induced in the middle of the summer, you should be able to see the flower buds poking out from the surface of the pot anywhere from beginning of September to the end of October.
The flower buds become dormant until Winter Solstice.
From Winter Solstice, my growing conditions are the following:
temperature is between 6C (42F) to 11C (51F). You can go down as low as 0C(32F). The temperature must be below 14C (57F); otherwise, the plant will go out of dormancy and the nutrient is diverted to growing leaves instead of concentrating its energy for flower development. This is one reason why the flower buds blast.
Humidity: 50%-70%
Watering: Keep it dry, I barely water it in the winter.
You should start seeing the flower buds to develop in mid January. The flower buds will become bigger and rounder. 
The flowers should start to bloom from mid-end of February to beginning of April (depending on the varieties).


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## Linus_Cello (Apr 5, 2020)

Thanks for the info. Where do you get your Cymbidiums from?


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## jokerpass (Apr 5, 2020)

I get them directly from my Japanese Cymbidium goeringii vendor. They don't ship and do not speak a word of English. Either I pick them up when I visit him (usually in the fall), or I ask my friend to pick them up for me at the Tokyo Dome Show. I am very specific on the varieties, sizes, and root conditions, I always ask for more than 7 growths or more and blooming size only. The Japanese vendor has always sent me pictures and explain each variety in detail (they are all different) and of course the conditions of each plant. They are sensitive plants, so I don't cheap out when I buy them. If I buy them at the Tokyo Dome show, I ask Flora Peculia from Toronto to pick up the plants for me and I prepay the total in advance.

FYI: Many Cymbidium goeringii you see for sell in USA/Canada are small/medium seedlings (they usually come in 3 bulbs only and not so good roots). Therefore, I don't buy any Cymbidium goeringii from Taiwanese vendors (I am Taiwanese by the way), I go to the source to buy them to ensure quality and true to the variety. Many Taiwanese vendors sell you fake ones (when it blooms, it is not the correct variety). Lastly, Medium seedlings will take 2-3 years to bloom (if you have the perfect conditions for them), small seedling take longer. Each new growth will take 2 years to mature, like a dendrobium, it only blooms on mature growth (last year's growth). 

Here are some of the flowers for this year!




, so


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## mrhappyrotter (Apr 5, 2020)

After commenting in this thread all those years ago, I did end up getting a C. goeringii (actually have a couple of them now). The first one I bought several years ago, and it flowered for me this year for the first time! I did not expect it. It didn't have a varietal name or any chinese name attached to it, simply labeled Cymbidium goeringii. The minute, slender, grassy foliage is attractive enough that it didn't matter to me if I could bloom it or not. Plus, I was secretly hoping to grow it out until it was large enough to divide and then I intended (or still intend) to test a small clump outdoors in the ground in my 7b climate.

What worked for me was, I grow it outside in partial sun (but still lots of shade) most of the year. From October through December I'd bring it in whenever the night temperatures dropped below freezing and I kept it very dry. Around January or February, the temperatures were consistently cold enough outside that the plant stayed inside. So, temperatures were in the 65F - 70F range mostly. Perhaps I have a more temperature tolerant clone, but the buds didn't blast in that temperature range. It may also have helped that I kept the plant dry to inhibit vegetative growth.

The plant bloomed in February for me, several spikes, each having a solitary flower. The flowers lasted a few weeks each, so not terribly long lived but that may be related to the temperatures. They were highly fragrant, very pleasantly so. The scent took a day or few to fully kick in, and then the last week or so the flowers weren't fragrant at all.


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## DrLeslieEe (Apr 5, 2020)

jokerpass said:


> Just a summary of all the messages I read about Asian/Oriental Cymbidiums. Here is a culture tips for Cymbidium goeringii. The same applies for Cymbidium sinense and Cymbidium ensifolium, the only exception is that the winter temperature must maintain above 10C (50F).
> First: You want to grow them outside in a shaded sheltered spot as long as possible, I grow them outside from mid-May until Halloween (Oct 31st). I live in Toronto Canada. From mid-May until Halloween, all Cymbidium goeringii receive only morning sun from sunrise to no later than 11:30am.
> By mid May, the temperature is more stable in the day and night, and has no dry wind like in early spring. In Toronto, the summer temperature can reach 30C (85F) and they love it.
> The flower buds for Cymbidium goeringii is induced in the middle of the summer, you should be able to see the flower buds poking out from the surface of the pot anywhere from beginning of September to the end of October.
> ...


Thanks for sharing M. 
Well bloom plants too!


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## jokerpass (Apr 5, 2020)

Mrhappyrotter:
congratulations in blooming your Cymbidium goeringii!!
Cymbidium goeringii has a few subspecies:

Cymbidium goeringii variation goeringii
Cymbidium goeringii variation tortisepalum
Cymbidium goeringii variation formosanum
Cymbidium goeringii variation gracillimum

Depending what C. goeringii you have, it can tolerate a higher temperature in the winter.
Cymbidium goeringii tortiseaplum and Cymbidium goeringii formosanum can take higher temperature because they are from Southern China and Taiwan.

When you buy Cymbidium goeringii, it is best to find out from the Vendor what type of Cymbidium goeringii you have.

All Japanese and Korean Cymbidium goeringii and Chinese Cymbidium goeringii around Shanghai Region and Zhejian Province are Cymbidium goeringii goeringii. They are distributed in the northern most border where the species is naturally found. These are the ones that will require the low temperature range I described above. 

I live in Toronto Canada where from early November until late March, night temperature is consistently below freezing constantly, so I do not have the luxury to grow them outdoor after Halloween.


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## Ozpaph (Apr 6, 2020)

very helpful and lovely flowers and pots.


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## BrucherT (Apr 6, 2020)

This thread drops from the sky like a miracle. I have been trying to learn these plants and acquiring them is very difficult. Your cultural directions are easily adaptable to me here in Chicago! The plant I actually desire most is a red C. kanran “Makesu,” which I did acquire and which died on me despite my best efforts and kind counsel from the very reputable vendor (she said I did nothing wrong and offered to replace it; I declined because I KNOW I did something wrong, I just need to figure out what), it browned off and died.

The one thing I don’t see in your cultural advice is anything about mix or potting or feeding. I have struggled to figure that out and would love advice.

I currently grow the following Jensoa Cymbidiums in South windows in a Chicago apartment:

1 C. ensifolium, in a 14-inch tree pot; mix is small bark, some sphagnum, charcoal (Hausermann’s seedling mix), osmunda chunks, lots of pumice, limestone, some akadama, some red lava rock. It has grown for me for 2.5 years and bloomed late last spring. It seems robust. I potted it at the same time as my C. kanran and they grew next to each other; kanran died last summer, ensifolium looks pretty good here.

2 C. quiebiense, 1.5 years with me. These arrived with the kanran; one of these thrived, the other went down down down...until I treated it with a two rounds of Safari and then started watering with Innocur (thanks FirstRays!) and it stabilized, our on a new growth. The other, which I picture below, seems be thriving, has matured two growths and its biggest issue seems to be stubborn scale. The quiebiense are potted mostly in rock with a bit of Hausermann’s seedling mix. “Rock” = pumice, limestone chips, red lava, akadama...

Lastly pictured is the little C. goeringii I picked up at Hausermann’s open house 7 weeks ago. No label but I recognized it and made a deal. Was the only one in the place and was very bad-looking at the time but leaves and growths sprouted for new I am delighted. I don’t even care for variegated plants particularly, am more into natural “wild”-type species, but this is the first one I’ve ever actually beheld for sale and I grabbed it. It seems to be potted in bark that needs replacing but I was hoping for more info from someone before I did that...biggest question is what is “Kanuma,” exactly? Asian growers add it to their rocky mixes sometimes up to 50% and I just can’t figure out what it is, if there’s a U.S. equivalent product?

In any case, THANK YOU for the gift of cultural info above. My Jensoas will go outdoors soon, gawd help them and us.

Grateful regards!

P.S. the photos posted exactly backwards. Hopefully you will just recognize the species; I give up.


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## Linus_Cello (Apr 6, 2020)

Where did you get your cyms from?

Kamuma is used often for bonsai

https://www.kusamonogardens.com/soil/kanuma


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## jokerpass (Apr 7, 2020)

Linus_Cello and BrucherT: Yes, Kanuma and Akadama are used for bonsai but are also used for Cymbidium **there are different qualities**, only get the best quality for Cymbidium goeringii. I get my Asian Cymbidium potting mix directly from Japan, they are not available in North America, I go to the source directly to purchase them. This potting mix is the Japanese standard to grow any Asian Cymbidiums including C. ensifolium, C. sinense, C. kanran, C. goeringii, and C. faberi. This is exactly the mix you see in all the Japanese website and Japanese books. The potting mix is composed of 3 different kinds of pumice: 1. hard Kanuma, (硬質鹿沼土), 2. baked/fire treated Akadama (焼き赤玉土), and Satsuma (薩摩土). I buy them as a premixed bag, in a premixed ratio. Each pumice has different properties, when you mix them in a certain ratio, they will have a perfect pH, perfect balance of moisture/wetness, and perfect aeration for the roots. Once all my Cymbidium goeringii are potted in this mix, all of them grow like any other orchids, and all the ones that have flowers last fall, all bloomed this spring. In this potting mix, I doubled the size of a Chinese Cymbidium goeringii in 3 years, also 3 of the Japanese Cymbidium goeringii came half dead (almost all the leaves fell) due to the delay in customs last year. I was able to rescue all of them (they are very healthy now) in 1 growing season and I bloomed one of the 3 plants this year.

As a little summer project a few years ago, I tested various potting media for Cymbidium goeringii that are readily available in North America including USA/Canada including Sphagnum moss, homemade bark mix (bark, charcoal, perlite), and Coconut bark/husk and they all failed miserably, these potting media don't have the right properties for Cymbidium goeringii.

To grow them successfully, you can disregard ALL instructions that is in English about Cymbidium culture, they are all wrong. I wrote a manual to grow Cymbidium goeringii. Here is a brief summary:

Water: only use clean water, RO water, rain water, or you buy distilled water from grocery store. When using the potting mix described above, when the surface of the potting is dry, I water so it varies depending on the month of the year.

Another very important point: Always keep the roots cool, do not ever let the sun shines on the pots, you will roast the roots and kill the plants. Here are my growing conditions which are adjusted according to the 4 seasons:

Spring: March-Mid May (basement underlight)
Temp: average around 15C (59F). Keep it cool
humidity:50-70%
underlight

Summer: Mid-May to beginning/mid Sept
I grow them outside below my shady perrenials. So the temperature and humidty is outside temp. I live in Toronto Canada so Chicago has a very similar summer climate. Morning sun only, from sunrise to around 11:30am. Flower is induced in the middle of the summer. The flower bud induction has nothing to do with the cool fall winter.

Fall: mid Sept-Halloween:
I grow them outside below my east facing porch. This location receives direct sun from sunrise to around 11am. This time, it is okay to give direct sun for a few hours because it is cooler. The direct sun will make the pseudobulbs strong.

Winter (part 1): Nov 1- winter solstice
In the basement. 
Temp average around 15C (59F)
underlight

Winter (Part 2): Winter solstice-end of Feb
In the basement, underlight.
Temperature range is between 6C (42F)-11C(51F). The temperature can never go above 14C (57F), otherwise, the plant will go out of dormancy into vegetative growth (growing leaves), so instead of concentrating the nutrient to the flower bud, it goes to the leaves. As a results, the buds blast.
humidity 50-70%

All these conditions have been tested and tried for a few years now and works every year.

To purchase these Asian Cymbidiums, I purchase from my Japanese Cymbidium vendors directly. I can get it every year if I want to. He doesn't ship and does not speak a word of English. He sells mainly Cymbidium goeringii but he also has loads of Cymbidium kanran.


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## BrucherT (Apr 7, 2020)

jokerpass said:


> Linus_Cello and BrucherT: Yes, Kanuma and Akadama are used for bonsai but are also used for Cymbidium **there are different qualities**, only get the best quality for Cymbidium goeringii. I get my Asian Cymbidium potting mix directly from Japan, they are not available in North America, I go to the source directly to purchase them. This potting mix is the Japanese standard to grow any Asian Cymbidiums including C. ensifolium, C. sinense, C. kanran, C. goeringii, and C. faberi. This is exactly the mix you see in all the Japanese website and Japanese books. The potting mix is composed of 3 different kinds of pumice: 1. hard Kanuma, (硬質鹿沼土), 2. baked/fire treated Akadama (焼き赤玉土), and Satsuma (薩摩土). I buy them as a premixed bag, in a premixed ratio. Each pumice has different properties, when you mix them in a certain ratio, they will have a perfect pH, perfect balance of moisture/wetness, and perfect aeration for the roots. Once all my Cymbidium goeringii are potted in this mix, all of them grow like any other orchids, and all the ones that have flowers last fall, all bloomed this spring. In this potting mix, I doubled the size of a Chinese Cymbidium goeringii in 3 years, also 3 of the Japanese Cymbidium goeringii came half dead (almost all the leaves fell) due to the delay in customs last year. I was able to rescue all of them (they are very healthy now) in 1 growing season and I bloomed one of the 3 plants this year.
> 
> As a little summer project a few years ago, I tested various potting media for Cymbidium goeringii that are readily available in North America including USA/Canada including Sphagnum moss, homemade bark mix (bark, charcoal, perlite), and Coconut bark/husk and they all failed miserably, these potting media don't have the right properties for Cymbidium goeringii.
> 
> ...



Wow. So much to think about. SO MUCH. Several have tried to help but I feel I have missed critical info and/or potting materials have been unavailable. And I guess they still are, because I cannot shop in/from Japan. If you ever had a notion to order extra, I would gladly pay if it’s within my reach. Is there any website to look at your Japanese vendor’s plants...? Even seeing named varieties is a thrill, even if it’s all in Japanese. The closest I ever was able to come to the kanran of my dreams was through Wenqing Perner, a variety she called “Makesu.” That’s the one I lost. I am sure I have not even seen the best of Japanese beauties. I love everything about the way they grow and am also into their Neofinetia culture (though somewhat ironically, the best plants to which I have access to are from a wonderful Korean dealer).

Basically, I am reading from you that mixing my own mix from materials available here is iffy at best; and yet, I have to do it, and soon. Is there ANYTHING here you can recommend? It is currently bark and looking good for now but I don’t want to lose it. I will have to try something else. I’m trying to know, what IS “kanuma?” What is the English word for the substance of which it is made? Likewise on “Satsuma.” Such pretty words...sung mysterious components. “Akadama,” I have learned, is more or less what we call “turface” or “turfaced calcined clay.” 

Thank you infinitely for this post and response. You yourself have quintupled my former pathetic knowledge of how I might conjure-culture these beautiful entities. I hope you will not mind a continuing conversation...there really is almost nothing of value on them in English. If you wanted to talk about doing a book, I’m available and a qualified writer-editor! What I lack is the knowledge and experience, despite years of trying to garner same.


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## jokerpass (Apr 7, 2020)

Since I don't go to Japan every year (I try to go once every 2 years), I only have enough Cymbidium goeringii potting mix for my own use. The potting technique is quite complicated, in addition of the 3 pumices I mentioned in the previous post, the potting mix is sorted out into 3 sizes (grades), large, medium, and small. So, bottom 10% large grade mix, 80% medium grade mix (majority of the pot), top 10% small grade mix. 

So, these pumices are volcanic in origin (acidic), the names reflect where they are found, both Satsuma and Kanuma are place names. Akadama is not a place but it translates into red ball (because it has a red colour). Akadama is the most acidic out of the three, but when mix in a correct ration, the pH of the mix is around 6.5. Since I have the mix, I just use it and that is it!! Most people don't have this mix, so what I would suggest is a mix of sphagnum, bark, charcoal, perlite, pumice (if you can find it). Basically to throw everything into the mix. I know some collectors in Toronto uses 50% bark, 50% satsuma. You might be able to find satsuma, hard kanuma (sometimes called Hyuga), and akadama (get baked/fired akadama if you can find it) in the US. I remember there are some bonsai gardens in California that sells them but they are sold individually in huge bags.

If I don't personally go to Japan, Flora Peculia (from Toronto Canada) can get the plants for me at the Tokyo Dome Show. I gave my Japanese Cymbidium vendor and Flora Peculia specific instructions, so the arrangement is smooth. If there are varieties you want (I need the Kanji/Chinese characters), I can try to ask my Cymbidium vendor for a pricing for you. Keep in mind that they are sold per growth and size (either if it's blooming size or not). I always prepay my orders.


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## Guldal (Apr 8, 2020)

Guldal said:


> Jokerpass, you should definately take up on BrucherT's proposal and write, that book in english on _growing_ Cymbidiums!
> 
> You can already put me on the list for a signed copy of the 1st edition!


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## seer (Nov 22, 2020)

BrucherT said:


> This thread drops from the sky like a miracle. I have been trying to learn these plants and acquiring them is very difficult. Your cultural directions are easily adaptable to me here in Chicago! The plant I actually desire most is a red C. kanran “Makesu,” which I did acquire and which died on me despite my best efforts and kind counsel from the very reputable vendor (she said I did nothing wrong and offered to replace it; I declined because I KNOW I did something wrong, I just need to figure out what), it browned off and died.
> 
> The one thing I don’t see in your cultural advice is anything about mix or potting or feeding. I have struggled to figure that out and would love advice.
> 
> ...


May I ask where you found C.Kanran and C. quiebiense in the US? Thanks!


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## BrucherT (Nov 22, 2020)

There is nothing in English on growing these Asian Cymbidiums. I think you’re making some kind of joke but if you haven’t grown these Jensoa Cymbidiums, only the big western-favored corsage Cymbidiums, well, they’re nothing alike in terms of growing. Nothing. It’s very frustrating to try to grow these Asian Cymbidiums without the proper mixes and ethereally beautiful pots.


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## BrucherT (Nov 22, 2020)

seer said:


> May I ask where you found C.Kanran and C. quiebiense in the US? Thanks!


Excellent question and the answer is, I didn’t! The plants came from Wenqing Perner of Heng Duan Biotech nursery, in China. Please write to Wenqing at [email protected] for her incredible list; tell her Bruch Reed sent you!


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## seer (Nov 22, 2020)

BrucherT said:


> Excellent question and the answer is, I didn’t! The plants came from Wenqing Perner of Heng Duan Biotech nursery, in China. Please write to Wenqing at [email protected] for her incredible list; tell her Bruch Reed sent you!


Will do. Thank you so much! Did you also get your kanran from her? Regarding the potting mix for Asian cymbidium, there’s no straight answer. The principle is that you want the potting mix to be moist but not wet for as long as possible. I’ve seen people had success with regular potting mix with perlite/pumice, LECA mixed with some coco coir, and believe it or not, partially broken down peanut shells mixed with regular compost in China. It really depends on your environment. However, I’d say Japanese substrates make it relatively easier and you can follow the recipes on the packages of either Kanuma 鹿沼土 or Kiryu 桐生砂. Usually it’s a mix of the above plus hyuga 日向土. When these substrates are moist, they have a darker color and they can hold moisture very well without being wet. This gives you a very good clue of when to water as the color of the substrates approaching light but not completely. As long as you follow the principle, it doesn’t really matter what substrates you use.


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## jokerpass (Nov 22, 2020)

Asian Cymbidium Mix: a mix of Hard Kanuma, baked Akadama, and Satsuma. bottom 10% 0f the pot, large grade of this Mix. majority of the pot 80% of the pot, medium grade of this mix, top 10%, small grade of this mix.
Fertilizer: rule for fertlizing is this, if you get a bareroot plant, DO NOT fertlize for for the first year, only start to fertlize from the 2nd year. My Japanese vendor told me that fertilizer is NOT NECESSARY to grow and bloom them (Which I believe because I was able to grow them well and bloom them in 1 season without any fertilizer). Now, the fertlizer I use for strong estalbish plants is slow release fertlizer for Asian Cymbidiums from Taiwan. For C. kanran, you follow the same protocols as C. goeringii. C. kanran starts budding in July into mid Sept and starts to bloom by Sept to November.


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## seer (Nov 22, 2020)

jokerpass said:


> Asian Cymbidium Mix: a mix of Hard Kanuma, baked Akadama, and Satsuma. bottom 10% 0f the pot, large grade of this Mix. majority of the pot 80% of the pot, medium grade of this mix, top 10%, small grade of this mix.
> Fertilizer: rule for fertlizing is this, if you get a bareroot plant, DO NOT fertlize for for the first year, only start to fertlize from the 2nd year. My Japanese vendor told me that fertilizer is NOT NECESSARY to grow and bloom them (Which I believe because I was able to grow them well and bloom them in 1 season without any fertilizer). Now, the fertlizer I use for strong estalbish plants is slow release fertlizer for Asian Cymbidiums from Taiwan. For C. kanran, you follow the same protocols as C. goeringii. C. kanran starts budding in July into mid Sept and starts to bloom by Sept to November.
> View attachment 23411


Does your Japanese vendor have Kanran or Shunran only? Can they provide CITES?


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## jokerpass (Nov 22, 2020)

My Japanese vendors: 95% what he grows are Cymbidiusm. Mostly C. goeringii (shunran) Chinese, Japanese and Korean varieties,, C. goeringii subspecies such as C. formosanum, C. longibracteasum....etc, C. kanran (kanran), and C. faberi. He has C. qiubeiense too. No, he doesn't ship overseas unfortunatey.


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## seer (Nov 22, 2020)

jokerpass said:


> My Japanese vendors: 95% what he grows are Cymbidiusm. Mostly C. goeringii (shunran) Chinese, Japanese and Korean varieties,, C. goeringii subspecies such as C. formosanum, C. longibracteasum....etc, C. kanran (kanran), and C. faberi. He has C. qiubeiense too. No, he doesn't ship overseas unfortunatey.


Thanks for sharing the info! Is 蘭万園 your vendor? I really like their instangram account.
I understand most of the Japanese vendors do not ship overseas. I'm just wondering if they can provide CITES, which seems to be a little bit complicated to get myself. I'm thinking about flying there and bring some when COVID is over. Looks like phytosanitary certificates is easier to get at the airport.


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## jokerpass (Nov 22, 2020)

He doesn't ship overseas. They will not provide any documents to ship overseas, pretty much 99% of the Japanese vendors sell domestically because there is a market for Asian Cymbidiums. For all these Japanese vendors, I communicate with them in Japanese, if you try to communicate with them in English, you will pretty much be ignored (it has a very different business culture, ie the Japanese method). To answer your questions about CITIES, in order to get CITIES, the greenhouses has to be inspected. It requires a lot of work on their side to get the inspection for a little order by you (no offense, but compared to the earning they are going to get domestically, it doesn't make sense for them). My budget is $1000USD every time I purchase, and that usually get me 2-3 blooming size C. goeringii which is nothing for them. Lastly, in the Western Countries, 99% of the people don't even know what they are, there is very little market in the Western countries for Asian Cymbidiums. Even if you can get them, 99% of people cannot keep them alive.


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## seer (Nov 22, 2020)

jokerpass said:


> answer your questions about





jokerpass said:


> He doesn't ship overseas. They will not provide any documents to ship overseas, pretty much 99% of the Japanese vendors sell domestically because there is a market for Asian Cymbidiums. For all these Japanese vendors, I communicate with them in Japanese, if you try to communicate with them in English, you will pretty much be ignored (it has a very different business culture, ie the Japanese method). To answer your questions about CITIES, in order to get CITIES, the greenhouses has to be inspected. It requires a lot of work on their side to get the inspection for a little order by you (no offense, but compared to the earning they are going to get domestically, it doesn't make sense for them). My budget is $1000USD every time I purchase, and that usually get me 2-3 blooming size C. goeringii which is nothing for them. Lastly, in the Western Countries, 99% of the people don't even know what they are, there is very little market in the Western countries for Asian Cymbidiums. Even if you can get them, 99% of people cannot keep them alive.


Well this is disappointing. But thank you very much!


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## seveclaudio (Nov 23, 2020)

Can I take advantage of your expertise for a classification question ?
I have had a Cymbidium purchased as a goeringii for 15 years, but I have some doubts about the classification. It is vigorous, produces lanceolate leaves of about 50cm, dark green, and produces in December January a floral spike with 3 - 5 green flowers with red stripes on the lip (see photo). It does not seem to me to correspond with the 'classic' description, with normally single flower and more or less rounded petals; I recently bought two more goeringii, named 'Chinese Oi Lin' (not flowered yet) and 'New Moon', which bloomed in December last year with single, white flowers .... and both are much more compact than my first plant! Searching the net, I assumed it might be Cym. cyperifolium ...
Any suggestions?


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## jokerpass (Nov 23, 2020)

*seveclaudioe *
The average leaf length of a C. goeringii is between 25cm-35cm. There are C. goeringii with small short leaves (< 3.5cm) and there are also C. goeringii with leave length more than 35 cm. A true C. goeringii subsp. goeringii can only have 1 flower per stem. Other C goeringii subspecies including C. goeringii subsp. formosanum, C. goeringii subsp. longibracteatum, and C. goeringii subsp. gracillimum can have more than 1 flower per stem. There are other ways to identify a C. goeringii by looking at the leaves. The leaves should have a serrated leaf edge, also there is a clear line/marking between the leaf and the mature pseudobulb. C. goeringii (when grown properly, bloom from mid Feb to mid April). One very unique characteristic of C. goeringii is that it must go through vernalization (it requires an extended period of a very cold temperature close to freezing (0C) in the winter time to bloom properly, if you don't know what vernalization means, please check on wikipedia). Without vernalization, the flower buds will blast. It should not bloom in December or January, it is too early. By your description, it is most likely the "Fall/winter orchids" (classified by Chinese) such as Cymbidium cyperifolium.


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## seveclaudio (Nov 24, 2020)

It was my suspicion. Thanks for the clarification!


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