# How long to pod maturity?



## Scooby5757 (Dec 5, 2008)

Im sure it's different depending on the type of cross, but I had mentioned back in July that I had a (Somer's Isle x philippinense f. alboflavum) that I put pollen from a nice phil. f. alboflavum onto. So, it took, <yay!> and has swelled and plodding along. I was hoping to try flasking them with the Root family's flasking business, I think they were mentioned in another thread. I was hoping to doing green pod, and Im not sure when exactly it's "done".

So any suggestions from people who have done this before?? I talked to Doc. Wilson at judging, he's got hundreds of crosses to his name, and he said "It's a homosapien. Nine months." Any confirmations or contradictions?


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## Drorchid (Dec 5, 2008)

Besides the type of cross (Parvi's are the fastest: 4 to 6 months, complex the slowest: up to 12 months), pod maturation depends on temperature (so in the summer they can mature faster than in the winter time, or if you keep your temps warmer than us they mature faster), but on average in our greenhouse for most multifloral and maudiae Paph crosses (which your cross will be) it takes about 6-7 months. I usually harvest them after 7 months. But keep an eye on it, if after 6 months or so it starts changing color (turning more yellow or brown in color) it will be ready.

Robert


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## Rick (Dec 5, 2008)

My multis always seem to be much faster than barbata, subgenera paphiopedilums, and Brachys (don't have much experience with Parvis).

However, philippinense have consistently been matured and ready to pop for me in the 4-5 month range. Suprisingly fast.

Most Barbata have taken 11 or more months (I usually quite waiting after 12 anyway).

Given the double dose of phili in this cross it may go faster rather than later. Is the pod dark red? Dark pods are harder to tell when they are getting ready to pop. They just get a bit dirtier looking and then split. But if its nice and green, then you will get plenty of warning when it yellows.


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## P-chan (Dec 5, 2008)

I received a generic listing when I was flasking some Pot. capsules. It just says 10 mos. Paphs. -Obviously not reliable. Meyers Conservatory prefers the pods NOT be green. (as do a few others that I've spoken with) They prefer dried seed collected. According to them, "green" pods can still transmit viruses etc...Just my 2 cents worth...


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## Drorchid (Dec 5, 2008)

P-chan said:


> I received a generic listing when I was flasking some Pot. capsules. It just says 10 mos. Paphs. -Obviously not reliable. Meyers Conservatory prefers the pods NOT be green. (as do a few others that I've spoken with) They prefer dried seed collected. According to them, "green" pods can still transmit viruses etc...Just my 2 cents worth...



That is true for orchids that can have a lot of viruses like Cattleya's, but luckily Paph's do not get too many viruses (only once have I seen a Paph with a virus), so you do not have to worry too much about viruses when you green pod. I prefer to green pod, as I get less contamination when I do so, and also I lose less seeds when I green pod.

Robert


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## P-chan (Dec 5, 2008)

Drorchid said:


> That is true for orchids that can have a lot of viruses like Cattleya's, but luckily Paph's do not get too many viruses (only once have I seen a Paph with a virus), so you do not have too worry too much about viruses when you green pod. I prefer to green pod, as I get less contamination when I do so, and also I lose less seeds when I green pod.
> 
> Robert



Ahhh! I'm learning something new every day! Thanks for that info!


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## Rick (Dec 5, 2008)

P-chan said:


> I received a generic listing when I was flasking some Pot. capsules. It just says 10 mos. Paphs. -Obviously not reliable.



Definitely, unless it considers only Barbata / Maudeae types


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## Scooby5757 (Dec 5, 2008)

Hmmm, all very good info. Thanks everyone. 

The pod is green in color not a dark burgandy or purple, but it is not looking yellow yet. It's good to know I should be looking for color change as well. I guess I really need to nail down who the flasking service is and figure out how they prefer to do it.

At any rate though, if four months is an option, I really need to be keeping an eye on this bugger.

Anyone have a flasking service they recommend? It's been suggested to me several times over by various people to not choose someone who requires they know the cross and keep several flasks for themselves. This may be paranoia on their part, but some of their arguement holds true.


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## Rick (Dec 5, 2008)

Scooby5757 said:


> Anyone have a flasking service they recommend? It's been suggested to me several times over by various people to not choose someone who requires they know the cross and keep several flasks for themselves. This may be paranoia on their part, but some of their arguement holds true.



I use Troy Meyers, but his free flasking service is not extended to hybrids. I have used him for hybrids, and he wants to know whats in the cross because he apparently tweaks the medium for certain species (?). If you stipulate that you want the balance of the noncommited flasks destroyed he will, but for hybrids you need to commit to purchase of at least 4 flasks (about $130 worth I think). Details on his web site.

You may want to give the Root family a go, and tell us how it goes.


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## Candace (Dec 5, 2008)

I'm using a friend and fellow orchid lover/lab owner in Reno. I would suggest, if possible, you find someone within driving distance as mailing the flasks is expensive and 9 times out of 10 you'll have to deflask them immediately upon receipt. I know this isn't always possible for people, but if you know someone closer rather than far, that's the way I'd go.


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## Rick (Dec 5, 2008)

Candace said:


> I'm using a friend and fellow orchid lover/lab owner in Reno. I would suggest, if possible, you find someone within driving distance as mailing the flasks is expensive and 9 times out of 10 you'll have to deflask them immediately upon receipt. I know this isn't always possible for people, but if you know someone closer rather than far, that's the way I'd go.



Troy sends back the seedlings deflasked, and if the weather is not too bad you can go priority mail for less than $15 (maybe cheaper). Which is pretty cheap compared to driving these days. But I haven't shopped around for any other services to compare the basic cost of flasking.

For larger packages UPS ground is pretty cheap, and in many cases faster than USPS. It just depends on how many states over you are shipping.


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## Candace (Dec 5, 2008)

True, but I like to grow them up to a decent size before deflasking. And shipping negates that option. Also, I don't have to worry about weather affecting shipments. All things considered, if I had to mail off pods and then mail in flasks, I'd probably do it myself.


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## Rick (Dec 7, 2008)

Candace said:


> True, but I like to grow them up to a decent size before deflasking. And shipping negates that option. Also, I don't have to worry about weather affecting shipments. All things considered, if I had to mail off pods and then mail in flasks, I'd probably do it myself.



If I had a spare room and didn't feel like sleeping at night after work, I'd think it be great fun to flask my own, but I only spend about $5 dollars per pod to send out, and a year or two later about $15 per deflasked flask to get back the babies. No muss no fuss. And those compots take up a bunch of space and care time of their own once you get breeding fever. So at this point I'll let somebody 1/2 way across the country hatch my babies for me.

If you can find a local flasker that will let you breath over their shoulder while they do their thing would be great, but you may be looking for a while.


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## Scooby5757 (Dec 29, 2008)

OK, so it started to turn color two+ weeks ago so I wrapped it up in wax paper and when I got home for break it had split. :clap: There's not tons of seed by any means, but I do see what I believe to be (itsy bitsy) seed clinging to the paper from static. I'm trying not to shake it too much, so Im guessing theres more still in the pod.

Sooo, does any one have a clue what viable vs. non-viable seed will look like. Ive seen some pics with embryos in them, but not ones to compare that are duds. I'm back at school, so it shouldnt be hard to get a microscope...any suggestions?


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## Rick (Dec 29, 2008)

Scooby5757 said:


> OK, so it started to turn color two+ weeks ago so I wrapped it up in wax paper and when I got home for break it had split. :clap: There's not tons of seed by any means, but I do see what I believe to be (itsy bitsy) seed clinging to the paper from static. I'm trying to shake it too much, so Im guessing theres more still in the pod.
> 
> Sooo, does any one have a clue what viable vs. non-viable seed will look like. Ive seen some pics with embryos in them, but not ones to compare that are duds. I'm back at school, so it shouldnt be hard to get a microscope...any suggestions?



About the only thing you can go by as far as viability goes is presence or absence of embryos. This is still not a guarantee of ability to germinate and grow. The process for scoping seed is to place a small amount of seed on a slide, add a drop or two of xylene, a cover slip, and apply a mild vacuum.

This process gets the excess air out of the seed, and collapses the seed coat around the embryo so you don't get a visual false positive for embryos instead of big fat air bubbles in empty seeds.

Did you figure out who's going to do your flasking? Did you every check out the TM website. He recommends collecting the seed in a clean paper coffee filter, avoiding contact with the capsule, hands, tools, (and everything else). But at this point it sounds like the capsule is still rolling around in the seed. The seed is tiny, and easy to loose, so you may not want to play with it much, and just send on what you have as is at this point.


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## Scooby5757 (Dec 29, 2008)

Well it figures I did it wrong. I was kinda in a rush out of the house for two weeks when I noticed it maturing and it is my first time. A learning curve for everything....so by mild vacuum do you mean a gentle push down on the cover slip? From there it should be rediculously obvious if they are viable or not?


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## Candace (Dec 29, 2008)

Go to the TM site. There are pictures of seed assays and what the embryos look like.


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## Rick (Jan 2, 2009)

Scooby5757 said:


> so by mild vacuum do you mean a gentle push down on the cover slip? :



No you actually need to put the slide in a vacuum flask and pull a small suction on it. You can often see small bubbles coming out from the seed.

I used to try just water with no vacuum before Troy clued me in, and often you have apparently healthy looking empty seeds with a big air bubble that looks like an embryo.


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## Rick (Jan 2, 2009)

Scooby5757 said:


> From there it should be rediculously obvious if they are viable or not?



Well if there are no embryos that would be obvious that nothing is going to germinate.

However even if embryos are present they may have other non visually obvious problems (such as genetic faults) that will reduce viability.


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