# Extremely Lightly Colored Leaves on Paphiopedilum Pink Sky.



## Happypaphy7 (Aug 18, 2016)

This is one of my Pink Sky plants. 
For some reason, new leaves come out very pale green, almost yellow green, in fact, they are brighter in person, and as they age, it darkens from the tip down.

I treat them all the same way, but only this one behaves this way.
Special?


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## NYEric (Aug 18, 2016)

No bueno!


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## SlipperFan (Aug 18, 2016)

Something cultural going on, I suspect. But what??


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## Happypaphy7 (Aug 18, 2016)

That is the question. No idea! lol


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## Brabantia (Aug 19, 2016)

Which fertilyser are you using ? I observed the same situation with fertilysers having nitrogen in a all nitrate form.




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## paphioboy (Aug 19, 2016)

Not a good sign but I cannot help you. A couple of my Maudiae-types also turned this way when grown indoors. I do not see this when I grew them outdoors, so not sure why. Multifloras and other paphs grown indoors do not exhibit this symptom.


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## myxodex (Aug 19, 2016)

It looks like the classic sulphur deficiency symptom but as it is only this plant showing this symptom it could also be genetic. 
There are neo varieties that show this symptom as a varietal feature. The Japanese have a term for this which I can't remember but it is consistent feature of these varieties and so likely a mutation; two examples are Kinbotan and Akogare.

Even if this is genetic it doesn't necessarily mean that it is completely independent of cultural conditions. It might be worth giving the odd feeding of just MgSO4 for example. Many fertilisers have low S levels to avoid precipitation problems and it's possible that 
genetic differences in efficiency of S uptake or metabolism could be at play. If it's a need for reduced N, as Brabantia is suggesting, you could try spraying the leaves with urea as this is easily absorbed through leaves and it has been reported more one than once here on ST that this greens up leaves, ... or just include urea with the MgSO4 feeding.


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## Happypaphy7 (Aug 19, 2016)

I thought the same thing, Sulfur.
So I dumped Epsom salt solutions on it a few times earlier, but didn't help.

I used balanced fertilizer. 

Maybe urea spray might darken it up, but I don't know.

All other plants are fine, so I'm thinking this one has some problem of its own as you say.


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## troy (Aug 19, 2016)

How long ago did you use epsom salts?


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## myxodex (Aug 20, 2016)

Good to know, ... and anyway with S deficiency you wouldn't expect the greening up from tip to base to happen so distinctly because in slower growing plants an S deficiency gives a more dispersed chlorosis. This is exactly like the neos in which the new leaves are yellow, and then green up from the tip back to the base and end up a normal green. So my guess is a mutation that causes a delay in the initiation or rate of chlorophyll synthesis or alters the light response that initiates and regulates chlorophyll synthesis. 

It seems that you have a rare plant. I wouldn't change your feeding to be any different from what works with your other plants in this case. 

You might find that this plant has a different light sensitivity. If you are growing it quite bright you might want to experiment with more shade. In the neo Akogare for example, strong light delays the greening up of the new leaves and can even cause a general chlorosis ... and is why this variety is often grown bright in order to enhance this feature. 

It will be very interesting to see whether the emerging flower spike is a different colour ... don't throw out this plant it might just have a pleasant surprise to come !


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## Happypaphy7 (Aug 20, 2016)

troy said:


> How long ago did you use epsom salts?



At least three times in the last four months.


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## Happypaphy7 (Aug 20, 2016)

myxodex said:


> Good to know, ... and anyway with S deficiency you wouldn't expect the greening up from tip to base to happen so distinctly because in slower growing plants an S deficiency gives a more dispersed chlorosis. This is exactly like the neos in which the new leaves are yellow, and then green up from the tip back to the base and end up a normal green. So my guess is a mutation that causes a delay in the initiation or rate of chlorophyll synthesis or alters the light response that initiates and regulates chlorophyll synthesis.
> 
> It seems that you have a rare plant. I wouldn't change your feeding to be any different from what works with your other plants in this case.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your input. 
I hope it'll be special in a good way.


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## gego (Aug 20, 2016)

How much Ca do you have? Sometimes Mg needs Ca to be more effective. 

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## Justin (Aug 20, 2016)

The light is too strong...you are bleaching it out.


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## Happypaphy7 (Aug 20, 2016)

gego said:


> How much Ca do you have? Sometimes Mg needs Ca to be more effective.
> 
> Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk



I thought they work against each other??


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## Happypaphy7 (Aug 20, 2016)

Justin said:


> The light is too strong...you are bleaching it out.



I doubt it. 
This is the only plant that does this. And the color returns to normal eventually.


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## gego (Aug 21, 2016)

Happypaphy7 said:


> I thought they work against each other??



They are not antagonistic to each other. As long as any of the four main cations is not overly supplied, plants will take what they need. They can compete against each but as long as you are within the acceptable range, deficiency is unlikely to happen. Google the function of calcium, not only that it's needed in the cell formation, it also helps transport nutrients.

I think one of the parent of this hybrid is a parvisepalum, these species will need extra Ca supplements.

Just try, it doesn't hurt since you already tried the other obvious suspects.
You did not say how much Ca you are supplying so I would say bring Ca up as much as your N or even higher. If you feed really low ppm, keep your Ca up around 40-50 ppm. It might be worth a try. The response is also fast. Let me know what you see.

And when you do this, provide air movement on the leaves right after applying.


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## Stone (Aug 21, 2016)

Did the leaf before this one start this way?


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## Rick (Aug 21, 2016)

gego said:


> They are not antagonistic to each other. As long as any of the four main cations is not overly supplied, plants will take what they need. They can compete against each but as long as you are within the acceptable range, deficiency is unlikely to happen.




The order of antagonism is NH4>K>Mg>Ca, and until you get to very low ammonia and K (like <1ppm N and 2-5 ppm K) the plants selectively pull up the more antagonistic items. I'm not sure what you consider "acceptable ranges" but ammonia and K is rare in the environment at more than a ppm or two.

You might want to get a pH strip and see if you can get a pH in contact with the roots (not the substrate). If the pH at the roots is > 6.5~7 you are likely seeing a N deficiency, and a dash of ammonia would help. Sue Bottom
wrote a nice article in August issue of Orchids that highlights the forms of N and which way it drives the rhyzosphere pH.

What the plant would do is start pumping out more citric and malic acid to lower the pH at the root down to ~ 5.8s.u. (which is where I started adding lemon juice to support what the plant would normally be doing anyway).


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## Happypaphy7 (Aug 21, 2016)

gego said:


> They are not antagonistic to each other. As long as any of the four main cations is not overly supplied, plants will take what they need. They can compete against each but as long as you are within the acceptable range, deficiency is unlikely to happen. Google the function of calcium, not only that it's needed in the cell formation, it also helps transport nutrients.
> 
> I think one of the parent of this hybrid is a parvisepalum, these species will need extra Ca supplements.
> 
> ...



I tried CalMag a few times, too. I saw no change. 

Regarding parvies needing more Ca, I do not believe this. 
Many species that grow near or on the lime stone do not necessarily need higher pH or more Ca. My personal take is that people started to speculate that it is the case and some started to add extra Calcium sources.
I have seen others who never use such additives and their plants grew just fine as are all mine. 

Plus, I remember reading site study of P. armeniacum and how the pH around the root was slightly acidic. After all, at least for many parvies, they might be sitting on or near the lime stone, the roots are still heavily covered with moss, dirt and such.


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## Happypaphy7 (Aug 21, 2016)

Stone said:


> Did the leaf before this one start this way?



It's been growing this way for a little over one year.


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## Happypaphy7 (Aug 21, 2016)

Rick said:


> The order of antagonism is NH4>K>Mg>Ca, and until you get to very low ammonia and K (like <1ppm N and 2-5 ppm K) the plants selectively pull up the more antagonistic items. I'm not sure what you consider "acceptable ranges" but ammonia and K is rare in the environment at more than a ppm or two.
> 
> You might want to get a pH strip and see if you can get a pH in contact with the roots (not the substrate). If the pH at the roots is > 6.5~7 you are likely seeing a N deficiency, and a dash of ammonia would help. Sue Bottom
> wrote a nice article in August issue of Orchids that highlights the forms of N and which way it drives the rhyzosphere pH.
> ...



It is around 5.5-6.0


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## Rick (Aug 21, 2016)

Happypaphy7 said:


> It is around 5.5-6.0



Then your inorganic chemistries are likely perfect and you may look more at temp / light / humidity issues.


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## Happypaphy7 (Aug 21, 2016)

I'm not sure.
I'm leaning toward mutation as other member has pointed out.

This plant was in the natural light where other of the same variety was growing perfectly fine, and this plant was doing the same thing then.

They have all been under T8 light since April this year.
All are well, except this one being yellow as usual, but I would say even yellower under light. 

T8 might be too bright. 
I saw T8 bulbs at Home Depot the other day and they looked exactly like conventional T8 except they were LED and a bit pricy.

I think I might switch to those next year. At least I would have less of a heat issues.


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## gego (Aug 21, 2016)

Ok so you already tried. Cal Mag was not very effective for me. I cant add enough because of the high iron on it. Ca Mg+ from GenOrganics has no iron, calnit is good plus a lil bit of tap. I make my solution out of ro by adding lime ang marble chips. Just sharing my line of thinking since you are using balance formula so that is very hard to increase Ca without adding any of the NPK. Of course you need to control your pH
I dont agree that the sorrounding elements do not count. Rain picks up calcium from limestone in a form of calcium bircarbonate. 
They are not there for nothing. Or they would have grown somewhere else

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## gego (Aug 21, 2016)

Rick said:


> The order of antagonism is NH4>K>Mg>Ca, and until you get to very low ammonia and K (like <1ppm N and 2-5 ppm K) the plants selectively pull up the more antagonistic items. I'm not sure what you consider "acceptable ranges" but ammonia and K is rare in the environment at more than a ppm or two.
> 
> You might want to get a pH strip and see if you can get a pH in contact with the roots (not the substrate). If the pH at the roots is > 6.5~7 you are likely seeing a N deficiency, and a dash of ammonia would help. Sue Bottom
> wrote a nice article in August issue of Orchids that highlights the forms of N and which way it drives the rhyzosphere pH.
> ...


Not so much between Ca and Mg if they are within the ratio a plant prefers. I think he uses a balance fert so his K is pretty high already and i believe he will need to overcome that ratio between K and Ca. And this thing about cation ratio is very species specific. im only thinking about this specific plant 

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## Happypaphy7 (Aug 21, 2016)

I normally use balanced fertilizer with both Ca and Mg included.

On this plant, I used CalMag alone seperatley, and Epsom Salt separately.

I don't think it is deficiency.


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## gego (Aug 21, 2016)

So you have covered that part. I was just thinking that you have lots of K in your media and so you msy need more Ca to evercome that. 
Btw, what I mean about Ca supplement doesnt mean a plant needs extra Ca. Some species just is not as efficient in taking this cation and so you provide more. It seems like K is easily absorbed while the availabilty is low. 
I have a few parvi hybrid and just like the others here experienced, the newest leaf is prone to seem like black rot. I remember some catts I hsve before showed the same syptoms and it wasnt rot but Ca deficiency. 
I did the same thing on these plants and the new leaves now show no black lesions. 

This Ca supply is sometimes tricky. My experience is that its not as effective if mixed with urea and sulphur although i didnt see any precipation. I was struggling then. Alil bit of ammomium seems to work better. 

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## Stone (Aug 21, 2016)

Happypaphy7 said:


> I normally use balanced fertilizer with both Ca and Mg included.
> 
> On this plant, I used CalMag alone seperatley, and Epsom Salt separately.
> 
> I don't think it is deficiency.



I've seen your other plants HP. This has nothing to do with nutrients.


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## Happypaphy7 (Aug 21, 2016)

gego said:


> So you have covered that part. I was just thinking that you have lots of K in your media and so you msy need more Ca to evercome that.
> Btw, what I mean about Ca supplement doesnt mean a plant needs extra Ca. Some species just is not as efficient in taking this cation and so you provide more. It seems like K is easily absorbed while the availabilty is low.
> I have a few parvi hybrid and just like the others here experienced, the newest leaf is prone to seem like black rot. I remember some catts I hsve before showed the same syptoms and it wasnt rot but Ca deficiency.
> I did the same thing on these plants and the new leaves now show no black lesions.
> ...



I don't think I've seen Ca deficiency in my plants. Even when I went one year without any fertilizing. Oncidium, Dendrobium, Phalaenopsis, Paphiopedilum, Cattleyas. All grew and flowered fine. Not a single spots other than certain Oncidiums, which I believe had nothing to do with nutritions. These are those that get ugly spotty leaves no matter what.
I don't do these any more for that reason. Yuck! 

So I would think these plants either have lots of reserve in the older growths, and/or the deficiency has to be severe to show up.

Then, the Ca deficiency symptoms themselves differ by crops, and sometimes even by varieties within the same plant. 
Orchids are less known for this.
The only thing I've seen photos of are certain bifoliate Cattleya, and I wish I knew the name. Small circular necrotic spot(s) may develop near the tip of the newly emerging growth. 

So, telling apart from Ca deficiency and fungal spots might be a challenge, I would think. I mean, how do you know for sure?

Now, it's turning into the dreaded nutrition talk here. hahaha


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## Happypaphy7 (Aug 21, 2016)

Stone said:


> I've seen your other plants HP. This has nothing to do with nutrients.



That's what I'm thinking. 
I mean, I can't think of anything else for this particular phenomenon.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 18, 2017)

*Update*

I took this plant out of the light set up and put it on a window sill in about two weeks ago.
It's amazing how fast the color returns normal. 

I guess it just didn't like the light from the tubes. lol

Honestly, it looks ugly now. Either full green or yellow was prettier. haha

I have one other Pink Sky in spike. If that one turns out nice, this one might have to go.


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## troy (Jan 18, 2017)

Don't throw it out, I'll take it!!


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## NYEric (Jan 18, 2017)

Hey now!?


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 18, 2017)

Sorry, Troy, but I'd rather dispose locally.

I usually just throw them in the garbage or bring to the local meeting. or Eric. hahaha

Eric-When the other Pink Sky comes into bloom, I'll decide and let you know if I'm going to toss this funky one.


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## consettbay2003 (Jan 19, 2017)

What is the Kelvin rating of your tubes?


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 19, 2017)

Typical white light. 5000 or 6000K I think.

Can you tell me how that is related to the plant?
All I know is that is shows how close the artificial light resembles the natural light in human eyes. 

Note that I have many plants under the same light and nothing behaved like this one, although a few others did bleach in varying degree. 
Then the rest seem fine.


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