# Paphiopedilum Rothschilidanum question



## jeroenarends (Nov 24, 2008)

I have one question.
My name is Jeroen Arends i am a beginner orchid grower from the Netherlands.

I have Paphiopedilum rothschildianum as a small seedling.
In books and on the internet they say is from soil that doesn’t contain lime.
But this site says it’s from ultra basic rock:
http://slipperorchids.info/paphdatasheets/polyantha/rothschildianum/index.html

I thought that lime was the component that caused alkaline soils?

Is there a way I can give my Rothschildianum an alkaline medium without addling lime?


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## Paul (Nov 24, 2008)

hello Jeroen and welcome, 
This Paph needs very bright light and regular fertilizing to grow well, fast.
I'm watering mines with municipal water, pH=7, and add a little slow release fertiliser (such as osmocote) on the top of the pot (once each spring) + organic fertiliser in the water at medium rate. I don't add any lime, calcium is into the water.
Good luck!!


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## Leo Schordje (Nov 24, 2008)

The ultra basic rocks originate from basalt, or from eroded basalt and metaomoric rocks derived from basalt. Mt. Kinabalu (source habitat for roth) is one of the volcanoes that the llava flows usually tend to deposits basalt. 

Most of us in the USA find that adding a little horticultural grade lime, or crushed oyster shell. For us the crushed oyster shell is easily available at any farm supply feed store. It is used as grit for poultry. It is mild enough in its pH buffering that Paph rothschildianum and its hybrids respond quite well to it. When I use oystershell, I don't think roth really 'notices' that it is not growing on andesite, or any of the other basalts. 
I personally have had unsatisfactory and unpredictable results from horticultural lime. Sometimes it is great, then occasionally it burns the plants roots up. I think it is a product quality issue. Some bags are not completely hydrated. So I use crushed oystershell.


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## NYEric (Nov 24, 2008)

Welcome from NYC!


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## SlipperFan (Nov 24, 2008)

Welcome, jeroenarends -- I hope your question is answered.


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## P-chan (Nov 24, 2008)

Welcome aboard! It's good to have you with us! I'm pretty new, also!


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## Nutz4Paphs (Nov 24, 2008)

I swear by crushed OYSTER SHELLS. Many paph species (and primaries too) enjoy the more basic media environment oyster shells provide. Ive always been worried applying hort lime - anyway, I know that a couple of others have suggested this so Im just adding my own voice.
WELCOME


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## Rick (Nov 24, 2008)

The geology that roths are found over is called serpentine. It is ultrabasic and when directly exposed can have a pH of 11. Most plants (include roths) are rarely directly in contact with it. Serpentine is very different from calcareous (limestone) geologies in that it is very low in calcium but high in magnesium and silicates.

In practice roths do well in cultivation without high pot pH or high calcium content. In general they will respond well to mixes that contain some oyster shell that will help keep the pH neutral and act as a sink for phosphorus. You may also consider some periodic waterings with about a teaspoon/gal of Epsom salts which will give it a boost of magnesium now and then. But all in all my roths haven't been as picky about potting mix or fertilizer as they are about having bright light with breezy humid conditions to keep from getting too hot.


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## jeroenarends (Nov 25, 2008)

Thanks for al your information.



Paul said:


> hello Jeroen and welcome,
> This Paph needs very bright light and regular fertilizing to grow well, fast.
> I'm watering mines with municipal water, pH=7, and add a little slow release fertiliser (such as osmocote) on the top of the pot (once each spring) + organic fertiliser in the water at medium rate. I don't add any lime, calcium is into the water.
> Good luck!!



Organic fertilizer sounds very good.
What can I use for that?
For some orchids I use dried cow manure. I apply this in the summer on the pot(not for paphs yet)
Can I add some to water and let it extract nutrients in it?

I never heard of slow release fertilizers for orchids. I will look into it.

I will look for some crussed oystershels but I don’t know if it’s available in the Netherlands.

Until now I give al my orchids the same water.
I prepare this from R.O water by adding fertilizer (between 500 – 1000 µs/cm)
The pH is approximately 6,5.
On this site I see its better to water my pahs with water of a pH 7,5-8.
I have added lime and let is stand overnight but the pH is still below 7.

Can I also apply high pH water to al my orchids?
Maybe this neutralizes the acid formed during the decaying of the soil?


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## Paul (Nov 25, 2008)

jeroenarends said:


> Thanks for al your information.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Epiphytes orchids don't need high pH. 5,5-7 is suitable, 6-6,5 is the best.
Most Paphs likes pH 6,5-7. Some of them need 7 or more (sanderianum at least), some others prefer more or less pH 6 (lowii & co, adductum & co, PNG Paphs, venustum, sukhakulii, sangii, tigrinum...)
 If you don't want to care too much, just had oister shells, or crushed eggs shells, and water as your other Paphs. when it will be stronger you will be able to fertilize a little more. But light is the first clue for it.


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## jeroenarends (Nov 25, 2008)

Paul said:


> just had oister shells, or crushed eggs shells, and water as your other Paphs. when it will be stronger )




crushed eggs shells i can made myself are thes as good as oister shells?


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## Heather (Nov 25, 2008)

I think that would be fine, Jeroen.


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## goldenrose (Nov 25, 2008)

jeroenarends said:


> crushed eggs shells i can made myself are thes as good as oister shells?


I don't know about you but I can't throw egg shells away! Actually I use both!
WELCOME to the forum, the French Connection is growing!


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## JeanLux (Nov 25, 2008)

goldenrose said:


> I don't know about you but I can't throw egg shells away! Actually I use both!
> WELCOME to the forum, the French Connection is growing!



As you are from Holland, you have a lot of sea with beaches full of mossels, clams and shells! I suppose that this should work, too!!?. Jean


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## jeroenarends (Nov 25, 2008)

Yes i think i can get some mossels shels en crusch those.
But the problem is that paph. rotschildianum is from soil without lime..
If i add eggs shells or something simmilar i that not going to harm him??


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## Rick (Nov 25, 2008)

jeroenarends said:


> Yes i think i can get some mossels shels en crusch those.
> But the problem is that paph. rotschildianum is from soil without lime..
> If i add eggs shells or something simmilar i that not going to harm him??



No it won't. The pH is more important than the calcium concentration.

You may also consider bone meal.


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## jeroenarends (Nov 25, 2008)

Thanks for al your info.
I just repotted my paph. Specerianum seedling because i suspected rooth rot.
Because the medium was alway very wett.
But the roots were oke.

I have measured the pH and is was 6,5 so that to acidic.
Salt contenc was low (>400µs/cm).

My paph Rothschildianum had the same (but fresser) medium.

In the new mixture i did soms lime because this species likes it.

If i in the fuer only water with pH 7,5 wil this be enough to keep the pH of the medium high?

Should i repot my Rothschildianum too?


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## john mickel (Nov 25, 2008)

Hey - I thinks - Hard boil some eggs and use the shells as a cheap product for calcium - but remember check the PH of your water before you start adding anything - but you can get oyster shells from farm supplies places - From what I know this is more important for Brackys which always have been collected from " lime-stone cliffs " If your plant is growing good in a pot from the seller - why change it - I really dont like changing mixes and pots if the lil plants are doing ok - J


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## Drorchid (Nov 25, 2008)

Hoi Jeroen!

Welkom! het is leuk om nog een andere Nederlander te zien op Slipper Talk!

To all those people who cannot speak Dutch I just welcomed him and said it was nice to see a fellow Dutch person on Slippertalk. Ha! now I can gossip to someone in Dutch and no one will be able to understand!

It seems that we are getting more people from Europe on this forum, which is a good thing!

Robert


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## NYEric (Nov 25, 2008)

Rob (Smitty) Zuiderwijk is in Holland also, I believe. I'm sure he could lead you to some nice besseae hybrids. :evil: http://www.phragweb.info/phragmipedium/hybrids/infrageneric/infrageneric_hybrids.asp


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## Paphman910 (Nov 25, 2008)

If it is small you can give it the same amount of light as for Phalenopsis. Seedlings prefer to be given warm temperatures of about 68 F at night and about 75-80 F during the day. They also like to be repotted yearly and require a slight movement in air circulation. Humidity should be at least 50% during the day and lower at night. I use coconut husk, large perlite, charcoal and crystallize limestone(comes from a horticulture shop that sells animal feed). I suggest you water with a pH of about 6.5-7.0 should be fine. The pH will affect the absorption of certain elements need by the plants so becareful to not bump the pH to high (alkaline). When they reach over 40 cm, you will need to increase the light intensity to keep it growing. I find Paph rothschildianum to be a fast grower due to selective breeding from Orchid Zone and TON. I would also suggest that you get a high intensity discharge lights such as a 400 Watt Metal Halide system to grow them. The constant amount of light increases the growth rate. My seedling rothschildianum from flask reached 60 cm in about two years growing under these lights. The lights are on for 12 hours a day and the roths kept growing even in the winter time.

Paphman910


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## Rick (Nov 25, 2008)

jeroenarends said:


> Thanks for al your info.
> I just repotted my paph. Specerianum seedling because i suspected rooth rot.
> Because the medium was alway very wett.
> But the roots were oke.
> ...



I think you should focus your attention on the light levels airflow, and air humidity before getting too excited about substrate and water pH. 6.5 to 7.5 for substrate pH is good. Your water goes through the substrate too fast to make a big differnce on the substrate.

If you add a little crushed limestone, oyster shell, or bone meal to your potting mix that will buffer the mix well regardless of your water pH. I think egg shells are very poor at buffering soil pH.


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## Rick (Nov 25, 2008)

Paphman910 said:


> If it is small you can give it the same amount of light as for Phalenopsis. Seedlings prefer to be given warm temperatures of about 68 F at night and about 75-80 F during the day. They also like to be repotted yearly and require a slight movement in air circulation. Humidity should be at least 50% during the day and lower at night. I use coconut husk, large perlite, charcoal and crystallize limestone(comes from a horticulture shop that sells animal feed). I suggest you water with a pH of about 6.5-7.0 should be fine. The pH will affect the absorption of certain elements need by the plants so becareful to not bump the pH to high (alkaline). When they reach over 40 cm, you will need to increase the light intensity to keep it growing. I find Paph rothschildianum to be a fast grower due to selective breeding from Orchid Zone and TON. I would also suggest that you get a high intensity discharge lights such as a 400 Watt Metal Halide system to grow them. The constant amount of light increases the growth rate. My seedling rothschildianum from flask reached 60 cm in about two years growing under these lights. The lights are on for 12 hours a day and the roths kept growing even in the winter time.
> 
> Paphman910



Haven't heard from you in a while!! I'm getting great growth from the roth seedlings from the joint breeding we did a couple of years ago.

I keep the humidity much higher though with minimum day humidity of 70%, and the humidity just tends to go a bit higher at night when the temperature drops.


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## cnycharles (Nov 25, 2008)

Drorchid said:


> Ha! now I can gossip to someone in Dutch and no one will be able to understand!



 when I first started working at my present job, the general manager was dutch and my boss (the head grower) was also dutch. even when they were speaking english we sometimes had a hard time understanding them. maybe it was because they first spent some time in canada before heading to upstate ny! (real twist of accents!)


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## Paphman910 (Nov 25, 2008)

Rick said:


> Haven't heard from you in a while!! I'm getting great growth from the roth seedlings from the joint breeding we did a couple of years ago.
> 
> I keep the humidity much higher though with minimum day humidity of 70%, and the humidity just tends to go a bit higher at night when the temperature drops.



Good to hear from you! I am glad our joint venture turned into something fruitful! 

Paphman910


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## jeroenarends (Nov 26, 2008)

Paphman910 said:


> If it is small you can give it the same amount of light as for Phalenopsis. Seedlings prefer to be given warm temperatures of about 68 F at night and about 75-80 F during the day. They also like to be repotted yearly and require a slight movement in air circulation. Humidity should be at least 50% during the day and lower at night. I use coconut husk, large perlite, charcoal and crystallize limestone(comes from a horticulture shop that sells animal feed). I suggest you water with a pH of about 6.5-7.0 should be fine. The pH will affect the absorption of certain elements need by the plants so becareful to not bump the pH to high (alkaline). When they reach over 40 cm, you will need to increase the light intensity to keep it growing. I find Paph rothschildianum to be a fast grower due to selective breeding from Orchid Zone and TON. I would also suggest that you get a high intensity discharge lights such as a 400 Watt Metal Halide system to grow them. The constant amount of light increases the growth rate. My seedling rothschildianum from flask reached 60 cm in about two years growing under these lights. The lights are on for 12 hours a day and the roths kept growing even in the winter time.
> 
> Paphman910



Thank you Paphman for the information.
My seedling is very smal from 1 leaf top to the leaftop on the other side is 10cm.
If recently placed it a little warmer and a higher humidity.
I think he likes it because there is a new leaf growing and its more upright.
I dont think coconut husk is a good idee for me jet because its verry small.

I will increase light intencity and repot it in the spring.
I was thinking of perlite+lime+ Tree bark.
Never saw i an orchid in charcoal jet.
Charcoal is heated wood until its black material am i correct?


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## Rick (Nov 26, 2008)

The batch of seedlings from the cross Paphman and I did are in:

2 parts CHC (chips about 1cm which may need cutting)
1 part chopped sphagnum
1 part sponge rock (perlite)
1/2 part charcoal
1/8 - 1/4 part oyster shell


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## Paphman910 (Nov 26, 2008)

jeroenarends said:


> Thank you Paphman for the information.
> My seedling is very smal from 1 leaf top to the leaftop on the other side is 10cm.
> If recently placed it a little warmer and a higher humidity.
> I think he likes it because there is a new leaf growing and its more upright.
> ...



You can use perlite, charcoal, fir bark and sphagnum moss. Use fine grade fir bark and the amount of sphagnum moss depends on how much you water. If you water everyday then you don't need sphagnum moss. If you water it once a week then you should add about 25% volume of uncompacted sphagnum moss to your potting medium.

Charcoal is heated wood until it is black!

I didn't know that you only have one seedling so you don't need to invest in 400W metal halide light. You can grow them under flourencent lights. I would grow them under 4 - 4 feet 40watt flourencent lights.

Paphman910


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## jeroenarends (Nov 26, 2008)

I have more multifloras ( philippinense, sanderianum, wilhelminiae, rothschildianum)
So a good sourche of light is welcome i think...

This weekend i will buy an HQL lamp for my plants.
I have now only one 70watt metal lamp. 
The lamp i am going to add is a 125watt lamp.

What for light levels are best for these plants i have a licht meter so i can cheak it.

Thankyou for al te information.


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## Paphman910 (Nov 26, 2008)

jeroenarends said:


> I have more multifloras ( philippinense, sanderianum, wilhelminiae, rothschildianum)
> So a good sourche of light is welcome i think...
> 
> This weekend i will buy an HQL lamp for my plants.
> ...



What are the units? lumens or foot candles?

Paphman910


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## jeroenarends (Nov 27, 2008)

Paphman910 said:


> What are the units? lumens or foot candles?
> 
> Paphman910



Hi Paphman,

I prefer in Lumen but if you only have it in foot candles i think i can calculate lumens out of it.

Thanks


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## Paphman910 (Nov 27, 2008)

Conversion of lumens to footcandles are the same. I would say your roth seedling needs at least 800 lumens(footcandles) and when it gets bigger (about 25 cm) it can take up to 2300 lumens without any harm with increased air circulation. The leaves should be a light green and cool to the touch! They will respond to better grow with increased humidity and quarter strength balanced fertilizer every two weeks. It will flower when the plant puts out a new growth. Also if you see the growth produce a smaller odd looking leaf before it flowers. I would say that if you are patience then you are looking at 5 years for it to flower.

Do you know who the breeder is? It would be good to know the heritage of your roth seedlings. Does it list cultivars used on your rothschildianum seedling tag?

Paphman910


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## jeroenarends (Nov 27, 2008)

Paphman910 said:


> Conversion of lumens to footcandles are the same. I would say your roth seedling needs at least 800 lumens(footcandles) and when it gets bigger (about 25 cm) it can take up to 2300 lumens without any harm with increased air circulation. The leaves should be a light green and cool to the touch! They will respond to better grow with increased humidity and quarter strength balanced fertilizer every two weeks. It will flower when the plant puts out a new growth. Also if you see the growth produce a smaller odd looking leaf before it flowers. I would say that if you are patience then you are looking at 5 years for it to flower.
> 
> Do you know who the breeder is? It would be good to know the heritage of your roth seedlings. Does it list cultivars used on your rothschildianum seedling tag?
> 
> Paphman910




800 lumens is very low i think? as far is i know every orchid requires atleas 1000lumens i have measured the light intencity and its 2300 lumens.
And i think its growing oke but it is very smal yet.
I am in the process of expanding my growing area so i dont have to lower the light to increase light levels.


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## Paphman910 (Nov 27, 2008)

jeroenarends said:


> 800 lumens is very low i think? as far is i know every orchid requires atleas 1000lumens i have measured the light intencity and its 2300 lumens.
> And i think its growing oke but it is very smal yet.
> I am in the process of expanding my growing area so i dont have to lower the light to increase light levels.



You should be fine with 2300 lumens. Just make sure the leaves are not too dark green.

Paphman910


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## jeroenarends (Nov 27, 2008)

Hi paph man.

My light meter can switch between lumens en foot candels.
En wen i switch i measur only 250 ft candels at the sam place??
So there is somting frong with 800Lumens=800 foot candels????


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## Rick (Nov 27, 2008)

jeroenarends said:


> Hi paph man.
> 
> My light meter can switch between lumens en foot candels.
> En wen i switch i measur only 250 ft candels at the sam place??
> So there is somting frong with 800Lumens=800 foot candels????



It seems like you can't really compare lumens to foot candles since lumens are total light energy spread out over a square ft (depending on the meter) and foot candles are point measurements of light intensity. So with 2300 lumens spread out over a square foot, your intensity at any one point may only be 250 ft candles. Try leaving your meter on FC and bring it closer to the light bulb. If it is a typical florescent bulb, 800 to 1000 FC will probably be between 4 to 6" from the bulb. If you have multiple bulbs and a good reflector you may get the correct intensity at 1 ft or so from the bulbs.

As Paphman explained temperature must still be cool and humidity high. As you get closer to the bulb, be careful that the temperature does not get too warm. If temperatures get too warm you may need to add a fan.

From, reading your earlier post, you are using some type of "metal" lamp (? metal halide, sodium vapor?), but only 70 watts. If they are intense as similar rated compact florescent's you may see 1000 fc within 1 to 2 ft from the bulb.


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