# Cattleya jenmanii



## Phaladdict (Dec 25, 2019)

Second time it bloom and it improved a lot and even if flower have not much substance I like it


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## Don I (Dec 25, 2019)

It's very pretty.
Don


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## Ozpaph (Dec 25, 2019)

very pretty, indeed


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## abax (Dec 25, 2019)

I like it too. The colors are harmonious and
quite pleasing.


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## DrLeslieEe (Dec 26, 2019)

PhalAddict, I think this might be a labiate var mosca, based on color markings and shape of the flowers (most jenmanii hold there petals straight up at almost 30-40 degrees at 2 and 10 o'clock position). Hard to tell as jenmanii rarely come in this coloration (though not uncommon). Can you show the whole plant? Also what is the scent like? Jenmaniis have a very sweet (almost too sweet) scent in the morning that permeates the entire room space. 

Of course I could be wrong lol. I have grown so many jenmaniis and labiatas to spot and judge the differences.


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## Phaladdict (Dec 26, 2019)

DrLeslieEe said:


> PhalAddict, I think this might be a labiate var mosca, based on color markings and shape of the flowers (most jenmanii hold there petals straight up at almost 30-40 degrees at 2 and 10 o'clock position). Hard to tell as jenmanii rarely come in this coloration (though not uncommon). Can you show the whole plant? Also what is the scent like? Jenmaniis have a very sweet (almost too sweet) scent in the morning that permeates the entire room space.
> 
> Of course I could be wrong lol. I have grown so many jenmaniis and labiatas to spot and judge the differences.



To be honest I also have some doubt it is really jenmanii, I also have think can be a labiata, plant is a bit bigger than average jenmanii (though I also have had occasiinally jenmanii clone s this size but in general with upright bulbs) flowers as you noted have details thath can think me more to labiata than jenmanii, so I'm not really sure... 
Smell is sweet and delicate, definitely less intense than other jenmaniis I used to have


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## Phaladdict (Dec 26, 2019)

Pot is 12 cm


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## DrLeslieEe (Dec 26, 2019)

The plant habit is similar to some of my jenmaniis esp the semialbas (and looks like labiate growth as well). It is hard to tell the difference between the two other than what we mentioned re the flowers. You mentioned the scent is not overpowering, so that might be a clue.

Labiatas will rest their new summer growths a month or two and then bloom while jenmaniis will grow and bloom immediately (see buds in sheaths as growth is almost mature). Also labiatas can have double sheaths, unlike jenmaniis.

I see your plant has a second growth. Labiatas usually bloom if both growths are matured. Are there buds in the new growth?


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## Phaladdict (Dec 27, 2019)

DrLeslieEe said:


> The plant habit is similar to some of my jenmaniis esp the semialbas (and looks like labiate growth as well). It is hard to tell the difference between the two other than what we mentioned re the flowers. You mentioned the scent is not overpowering, so that might be a clue.
> 
> Labiatas will rest their new summer growths a month or two and then bloom while jenmaniis will grow and bloom immediately (see buds in sheaths as growth is almost mature). Also labiatas can have double sheaths, unlike jenmaniis.
> 
> I see your plant has a second growth. Labiatas usually bloom if both growths are matured. Are there buds in the new growth?


Hello
Yes there are buds and will bloom soon, no rest, they bloom as soon as growht mature, Mauro Rosim (he know something about cattleya) told me is labiata, other say is jenmanii and to someone else is a hybrid (I don't think so but you never know...) I changed tag to labiata but I think I have been too fast to do, it can well be jenmanii after all


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## Phaladdict (Dec 27, 2019)

Well if we look at single sheat and flowering time (this one flower when normally labiata season is ending) I think we have here one of these jenmanii thath are very similar to labiata, i think will change again the #@%%x tag...also smell while not overpowering can well be jenmanii too


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## DrLeslieEe (Dec 27, 2019)

You have a dilemma where a plant has qualities of both... either way, it is a pleasure to enjoy the blooms as long as you can. Let us know what you decide which it is. Both Mario and I think it’s a labiata.


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## Phaladdict (Dec 28, 2019)

DrLeslieEe said:


> You have a dilemma where a plant has qualities of both... either way, it is a pleasure to enjoy the blooms as long as you can. Let us know what you decide which it is. Both Mario and I think it’s a labiata.



At the moment I also tend to think is labiata, but still the single sheath and late flowering make me think... (but this can be explained by light pollution thath is strong and single sheath can happen also on labiata so...)


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## Phaladdict (Dec 30, 2019)

DrLeslieEe said:


> You have a dilemma where a plant has qualities of both... either way, it is a pleasure to enjoy the blooms as long as you can. Let us know what you decide which it is. Both Mario and I think it’s a labiata.



Another eminent name joined the labiata corus louis Varela, and I do agree flower is all labiata, but then when I read the books I remember thath jenmanii clones virtually identical to labiata are not so rare and thath we can tell apart from the absence of double sheath and late flowering period, so we have to judge the flowers only or look at other details thath do have diagnostic value? If the latter then is jenmanii... But when I look at flower I see a fxxxxx labiata..,


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## Phaladdict (Dec 31, 2019)

Ok, for who is interested, as jenmanii and labiata can have, on some clones, virtually identical flowers and historically they have been(and still are) tell apart from the absence of double sheet and late flowering period on jenmanii I conclude thath even if flower looks very similar to labiata, whath we have here is jenmanii, as in this case we can't look only at flowers


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## Ozpaph (Jan 1, 2020)

can you explain 'double sheath', please?


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## DrLeslieEe (Jan 2, 2020)

Double sheath means there is a smaller sheath inside the bigger sheath. Some labiatas and sometimes even jenmaniis will have these. That's why the two species can be confused together although the former is from Brazil and the later from Venezuela. To compound that, warneri can also look like labiata, growing around 500 km away in Brazil as well.

The main thing that screams labiata to me is the white lip of the mid-lobe of the lip. Combined that with the brushed purple striations on it is almost a trademark of the 'Cara Blanca' types of labiatas of the purpureo-lineata or purpureo-striata types. This is so rare in jenmanii that I have not seen one so demarcated like yours. 

Plus the flowering season of labiatas and jenmaniis overlap. My labiata posted here is also in bloom now, but it has bloomed in early spring as well in other years. My jenmaniis bloom from August till April. 

After all that is said, whatever the name you want to call it matters only if it is brought in front of concerned orchid judges. Other than that, it is a pretty flower no matter what it's called.


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## Phaladdict (Jan 2, 2020)

DrLeslieEe said:


> Double sheath means there is a smaller sheath inside the bigger sheath. Some labiatas and sometimes even jenmaniis will have these. That's why the two species can be confused together although the former is from Brazil and the later from Venezuela. To compound that, warneri can also look like labiata, growing around 500 km away in Brazil as well.
> 
> The main thing that screams labiata to me is the white lip of the mid-lobe of the lip. Combined that with the brushed purple striations on it is almost a trademark of the 'Cara Blanca' types of labiatas of the purpureo-lineata or purpureo-striata types. This is so rare in jenmanii that I have not seen one so demarcated like yours.
> 
> ...


Well I can't agree thath no matter as it is showed everywhere on the internet and I tend to be precise,also I like to know exactly whath I have, if not I would have collected noid not species, also perhaps I will show it to judges who know? thath are the reason I consult and buy books articles and consult people more expert than me on cattleya, again this is a rare coloration in jenmanii I do agree but not impossible as jenmanii have all coloration thath have labiata, take a look at Mr chadwick book or simply the article he writed on his site, just to cite one.
All this said if we look only at flowers then you said Also Warneri can be very similar and especially jenmanii, you can't look only at flowers and i have never seen a jenmanii with double sheath,and i have seen very few labiata with single sheat, if we look only at flowers and not at the rest then jenmanii was still a labiata like when it was just found, a bad labiata was though to be, you can't dismiss other details in cattleya, too many similarity on some clones of some species.
So in definitive while I'm the first to say thath looks like a labiata I think going deeper and analyze all details is a better approach in my eyes, not looking only at a flowernot in this case at least as again we know jenmanii have clones virtually identical to labiata so.... I still I'm not sure like you seems but analyzing all details take me in the jenmanii direction, if I just look at the flowers then I do agree looks like labiata, but then all the tools we have used to differentiate unifoliate similar cattleyas like jenmanii/labiata on some cases are not good anymore?


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## Ozpaph (Jan 2, 2020)

thank-you for the helpful explanation. This discussion is very informative.


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## DrLeslieEe (Jan 3, 2020)

I am in agreement with you in terms of using all phytological, morphological and floral characteristics to determine the identity of this plant. And to know the real species in question is an absolute must for us species collectors. I myself collect many of these cattleya species (over 300 in my collection, many of which are divisions of unifloliates) and have many books, journals and articles on them. I have also travelled to Japan, South America, and US to study, lecture and judge thousands of them. As such I’m using my experiences and studies to make logic and deduce from what was presented in front of me. That was how I came to this conclusion. If I was judging this plant, I would point to labiata unless conclusive evidence points it elsewhere.


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## Phaladdict (Jan 4, 2020)

Yes, in general I would have think the same looking at the flowers,also yours and eminent friend opinion i take in consideration, but still I can't dismiss the details thath go in the jenmanii direction, so in definitive i will put a question mark on the tag and continue to do research as cattleya is not my genus but Its growing on me everyday and already accumulated a decent collection...


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