# Lc. Mini Purple



## Phred (Nov 23, 2020)

This is a mericlone of the awarded Lc. Mini Purple ‘Tamami’ AM/AOS. The flower is a nice but the foliage, which is variegated, is even nicer. Haven’t seen one like this before.


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## DrLeslieEe (Nov 23, 2020)

That’s interesting the flower is normal too. Love variegated leaves.


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## monocotman (Nov 24, 2020)

Interesting!
David


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## Ozpaph (Nov 24, 2020)

ditto


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## Guldal (Nov 24, 2020)

Beautifull both flower and leaves! The variegated leaves, that almost look like a cross with Neofinetia, ought to make the japanese drool!


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## NYEric (Nov 24, 2020)

Cool. I used to have mini-Catts. Very sad story.


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## SouthPark (Nov 24, 2020)

Interesting Phred! I definitely didn't know that 'Tamami' has variegated leaves. I grow a 'Tamami' ----- and mine doesn't have variegated leaves. And I haven't seen photos online of 'Tamami' with variegated leaves. Which then raises the question of whether your orchid really is a 'Tamami'. It probably isn't a Tamami ----- or at least not anymore. Quite a special one!


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## Phred (Nov 24, 2020)

Obviously a mutation through mericlon process but from Tamami for sure


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## SouthPark (Nov 24, 2020)

I also believe it was from 'Tamami'. It is now a different name! Eg. 'Tamami m. Variegated' (example *only* ----- Tamami mutation variegated). And very nice too.


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## Phred (Nov 24, 2020)

SouthPark said:


> I also believe it was from 'Tamami'. It is now a different name! And very nice too.


I've asked a number of people and the comcesis is 'Tamami' but maybe Leslie could confirm


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## SouthPark (Nov 24, 2020)

Once the DNA has changed, it is no longer the same cultivar. It is a different 'person'. Your orchid is ultra nice Phred! You rightfully can choose a cultivar name for that one maybe.


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## Phred (Nov 24, 2020)

SouthPark said:


> Once the DNA has changed, it is no longer the same cultivar. It is a different 'person'. Your orchid is ultra nice Phred! You rightfully can choose a cultivar name for that one maybe.


I'd love too... was planning on having it judged but the center closed down again


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## Guldal (Nov 24, 2020)

Notice, SP says it's "_from_ 'Tamami" and thus recognizes it's origin/heritage!

May I propose: LC Mini Purple 'Tamami' typo variegatum?

But the suggestion to consult Leslie (DrLeslieEe) is a sound one - with his profound knowledge and many years of experience in the field of Catts! We would also almost have a direct link to the august body of AOS with his status as ass. judge!


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## Phred (Nov 24, 2020)

I selfed it last bloom but I think I waited too long and the pod failed right away


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## SouthPark (Nov 24, 2020)

Guldal said:


> May I propose: LC Mini Purple 'Tamami' typo variegatum?



A fair proposal!

Although, I was under the impression that a cultivar name associated with a cultivar plant ----- is tied to directly to DNA. So a division, or a clone (where a clone for example refers to a meri-stem propagated orchid having exact DNA copy of the original) can have a cultivar name that is the same as the 'original' plant.

But if a mutation somehow occurs, then the mutated orchid no longer has the same DNA ----- so it will not be the same cultivar, and so it is then free to get assigned a new cultivar name.


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## DrLeslieEe (Nov 24, 2020)

Guldal said:


> Notice, SP says it's "_from_ 'Tamami" and thus recognizes it's origin/heritage!
> 
> May I propose: LC Mini Purple 'Tamami' typo variegatum?
> 
> But the suggestion to consult Leslie (DrLeslieEe) is a sound one - with his profound knowledge and many years of experience in the field of Catts! We would also almost have a direct link to the august body of AOS with his status as ass. judge!


It is not unusual for a mutation of a mericlone population to differ enough to warrant its own cultivar name, particularly when a flower changes to similar (but different color or markings) or better (thicker, larger, more spotting etc). Case in point is the Phalaenopsis Golden Peoker 'Brother' that mutated to harlequins 'SJ', 'Everspring', 'Nancho' and 'BL'. These were so significantly different that they created the fantastical harlequin phals we see today. 

Leaf mutations are rarely noted with new cultivar names if the flowers remain the same as the original for size and color. They may instead be given a horticultural name instead like the mutate leaf phals and odonts. If an award is given to commend the leaves, usually a new name is not given out, but merely a point is made that the mericlone has 'interesting' leaf patterns, worthy of recognition. 

In the case for this Mini Purple, I compared the original award photos and the current photo. It looks like Phred's flower is bigger and rounder (esp the petals) than the original photo. If Fred can give the dimensions (NS, size of petals and lip, both by width x length, in cm ;o) and feel the texture (medium, firm, hard), we can ascertain if the plant had mutated to a polyploid (4N?) in conjunction with the leaf changes. In this case, the plant can be possibly deemed sufficiently with enough differences from the original plant to warrant a new cultivar designation. 

Also, research must be done to see if this plant is unique for the leaf traits or if it was mericloned specifically for the leaf mutation, and that there are not thousands out there.

I will confer with AOS HQ further in this and get back to this thread when I get a confirmation.


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## Guldal (Nov 24, 2020)

Thank you, Leslie, I knew we could count on your expertise!


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## SouthPark (Nov 24, 2020)

I really like Mini Purple a lot ......... currently growing 'Tamami', 'Tracy', and 'Orchid Centre'.

It will be nice to check ----- for orchids only ----- that 'cultivar' pertains to orchids having all the same DNA ....... identical DNA match (if theoretically possible to test for identical DNA match). Any mismatch at all in an individual from the rest of the group .... different DNA sequence ..... will be a different 'cultivar'. Or if a different word is to be used ------- we can use 'clonal name'. And 'clone' is an exact copy ------ full DNA match. Anything that doesn't have exact DNA match will not be a clone.

That's my assumption - which is assuming the words within the pair of single quotation marks is 'clonal name' or 'cultivar name' ........ and the definition of cultivar name in the orchid arena (eg. AOS) is probably different from the regular horticultural definition of cultivar.


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## eds (Nov 25, 2020)

A cultivar doesn't have to be genetically identical - outside of orchids there are annual cultivars propagated by seed which, by their nature, are genetically different to greater or lesser degrees.

The 9th edition of the ICNCP (International Code of Nomenclature of Cultivated Plants) just states they should retain their characteristics and be propagated in a way that ensures they maintain their characteristics.

So, as long as this plant can be propagated in a way that maintains these new characteristics and they are stable (which isn't always the case with variegation) then it would warrant a new cultivar name IMO.


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## Guldal (Nov 25, 2020)

eds said:


> A cultivar doesn't have to be genetically identical - outside of orchids there are annual cultivars propagated by seed which, by their nature, are genetically different to greater or lesser degrees.
> 
> The 9th edition of the ICNCP (International Code of Nomenclature of Cultivated Plants) just states they should retain their characteristics and be propagated in a way that ensures they maintain their characteristics.
> 
> So, as long as this plant can be propagated in a way that maintains these new characteristics and they are stable (which isn't always the case with variegation) then it would warrant a new cultivar name IMO.


Thank you for this very enlightening input, Ed. Really usefull!
I knew there was an International Code of Botanical Nomenclatura, as Dr. Braem in his works on Paphiopedilum often refers to it. But for growers the ICNCP, referred to by you, seems to be an equal, if not even more usefull ressource!


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## Guldal (Nov 25, 2020)

On the homepage of the International Society for Horticultural Science they offer for free a download (PDF-format) of the ICNCP (Scripta Horticulturae #18) - you can also find an orderform for buying it in hardcover and support their work:








International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants, Ninth Edition | International Society for Horticultural Science







www.ishs.org


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## SouthPark (Nov 25, 2020)

eds said:


> A cultivar doesn't have to be genetically identical - outside of orchids there are annual cultivars propagated by seed which, by their nature, are genetically different to greater or lesser degrees.



Thanks eds! That's probably where 'clonal name' should be used for clarity ------- for orchids that is. So that all clone orchids of C. Mini Purple 'Tamami' will be genetically identical. Any mericlone orchid that happens to be not a 'clone' of 'Tamami' (eg. a mutated orchid) --- will not be genetically identical, and so should not be labelled 'Tamami'.


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## eds (Nov 25, 2020)

SouthPark said:


> Thanks eds! That's probably where 'clonal name' should be used for clarity ------- for orchids that is. So that all clone orchids of C. Mini Purple 'Tamami' will be genetically identical. Any mericlone orchid that happens to be not a 'clone' of 'Tamami' (eg. a mutated orchid) --- will not be genetically identical, and so should not be labelled 'Tamami'.



With my genetics hat on I'm afraid it's not even that simple! Transcription errors occur even through cloning or general growth, it's one of the reasons variegated growth can revert to plain growth and cancerous growths occur. Different parts of the same plant may have slight differences. So very nearly identical but not necessarily exactly the same. And you can get some pretty big changes to genomes without any visible changes to the appearance of an organism, even to the extent of chunks of chromosomes missing!

I'd stick with thinking about the appearance because without sequencing the entire genome you can't know how different it is.

To paraphrase a saying about ducks, I'd say that if it looks exactly 'Tamimi' and grows exactly like 'Tamimi' and was purchased labelled as 'Tamimi' it is 'Tamimi'! Any differences it probably needs a new name!


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## Guldal (Nov 25, 2020)

eds said:


> I'd stick with thinking about the appearance because without sequencing the entire genome you can't know how different it is.


Always 'Keeping Up Appearences' as is with the Hyacinths!


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## eds (Nov 25, 2020)

Guldal said:


> Always 'Keeping Up Appearences' as is with the Hyacinths!



Ha ha! 
I do hate that program but understand that it has quite the following on the continent. I used to tease my mum's telephone voice about being like Mrs Bucket!


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## SouthPark (Nov 25, 2020)

eds said:


> With my genetics hat on I'm afraid it's not even that simple! Transcription errors occur even through cloning or general growth, it's one of the reasons variegated growth can revert to plain growth and cancerous growths occur.




True eds! That is exactly why we have to define 'clone'. A clone has the same DNA as the original plant. Any deviation or departure ------ is then not a 'clone', or no longer genetically the same as the original. Uncertainty about the DNA sequence (when compared with the original) is something we have to just deal with. But when getting down to the actual definitions ------ as in identical DNA, then it's true to say that a clone isn't a clone if it doesn't have identical DNA, and so for correctness ----- can't and should not use the same clonal name for a non-clone, even for a plant that just so-happens to have the DNA changed due to mutation. That's not a problem. It is just definition.

Somebody still has a choice to use the same clonal name for what they like - but that would then be based on 'assuming' same DNA (or some other reason). But if something is clearly different - such as mutated, then it makes sense to not use the same clonal name - due to obvious visible feature differences ----- such as nearly all or every leaf of an orchid being variegated - while all the other members have no variegation.

Here, I'm just limiting the field to orchids. Definitely not even going to go there with non-orchids, such as some variegated monstera.


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## Guldal (Nov 25, 2020)

eds said:


> Ha ha!
> I do hate that program but understand that it has quite the following on the continent. I used to tease my mum's telephone voice about being like Mrs Bucket!


When it came out, it certainly had a following in Denmark. Recently Downtown Abbey has been more en vogue - I guess, it could somewhat be described as 'Keeping Up Appearences without the laughs' (to parafrase a derogatory remark about Pfitzner's opera Palestrina).
I liked the program, when it first came out, but somehow tired of its both stock characters and plots. Maybe my relationship with it is best caught as a love-hate one. A friend has recently started sending me Youtube snippets with scenes, he finds hillarious. I'm thinking of giving it another go - but will surely adhere to the warning on the packet: 'only to be taken in limited doses'!


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## Phred (Nov 25, 2020)

DrLeslieEe said:


> If Fred can give the dimensions (NS, size of petals and lip, both by width x length, in cm ;o) and feel the texture (medium, firm, hard)


Texture is definitely firm to hard. (In my untrained opinion)


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