# MSU and K-Lite?



## wjs2nd (Nov 29, 2012)

I have a few questions about the two and didn't want to hijack anyone's thread (I saw that Ray's thread is about K-Lite reviews and I have never used K-Lite). Plus, I hope this becomes informitive for others. Their is so much experience with these two fertilizers and I don't have any.

1. I read some discussion about continual dose feeding. What dose do you suggest with MSU and K-Lite? It seemed no higher then 70ppm N was recommended. What is the easiest way to measure this/figure this out? I know easiest isn't always best, but not all of us have TDS meters. I have RO water. Can I use 1/4 teaspoon per gallon, or should it be even less?

2. With the discussion about deficiencies, has anyone thought about rotating between MSU and K-Lite? Could this cause an imbalance? (I know none of the deficiencies/issues seem to actually be from K-Lite).

3. From what I could read, you don't need to add calcium if your using K-Lite? Is that because of how it is balanced? 

4. If you continually feed, what do you do during winter: every other watering, or stop feeding altogether? I have a few orchids where I'm not suppose to feed them in the winter.

These are all the questions I can think of. If anyone else has questions please post them.


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## Ray (Nov 29, 2012)

First understand that the K-Lite formula was actually derived from the MSU RO.

Both are designed for continuous feeding. The concentration and frequency of application both play roles in the mass of food you end up providing.

If you have a calculator handy, you can do the following:

At 1 teaspoon per gallon, each %N on the label provides 12.5 ppm N in the final solution. Therefore, if you're shooting for 50 ppm N, 50/12.5=4, so take whatever fertilizer you have and divide 4 by the %N to determine the teaspoons per gallon to use. If you're shooting for 75 ppm N, divide 6 (75/12.5) by that label percentage.

Alternating/rotating the two would be roughly equivalent to blending the two, giving you a formula somewhere in between. We are intentionally suppressing the P & K, so that would defeat the purpose of the experiment.

For most plants, the fertilizer has plenty of calcium in it. There may be some species that are particularly demanding of it, so a bit of crushed oyster shell on top of the medium may be warranted for them. Personally, I don't bother.

If you have plants needing a rest period, simply withhold fertilizer altogether.


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## Cheyenne (Nov 29, 2012)

About the pitting amendments, I have always believed that the potting amendments like oyster shell and limestone chips were to keep PH in the pot at an acceptable range. 6-7 seems to be a common ground where most things are available to the plants. If you grow in S/H or some other way where you PH isn't going to drop drastically then you would never need to add them. But if you grow in bark and are not right on top of your repotting schedule then the PH drops as the bark degrades. I can see it in my plants. I was never under the impression that oyster shells would dissolve fast enough to provide the plants with an adequate amount of calcium. Dolomite power may do a little better at providing some calcium. When I first started growing I had alot of conversations with growers about this and the concensus seemed to be the same oyster shell for PH adjustment, cal nitrate for calcium. So I dont see why you would not need to add it with k-lite because the ph is still going to drop.


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## wjs2nd (Nov 29, 2012)

Ray: thanks for the explanations! I finally feel like I understand how to measure %N for feeding (at 12.5 N per teaspoon, 4 teaspoons will give you 50 ppm N per gallon of water). It is good to know that both are meant for continual feeding. I guess I should have clarified that I didn't mean alternating between the two every watering, but more spacing the change out (few months MSU, few months K-Lite). Of course, this was also before I knew K-Lite was derived from MSU.


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## Linus_Cello (Nov 29, 2012)

Ray- can you address continuous feeding using K-lite and: (1) hydrogen peroxide and (2) seaweed extract?


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## keithrs (Nov 29, 2012)

Ray said:


> Both are designed for continuous feeding.



What do you mean by continuous feeding? It can be taken several ways....


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## likespaphs (Nov 29, 2012)

every feeding has a light fertilizer solution instead of just giving the plant a periodic dose


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## gonewild (Nov 29, 2012)

likespaphs said:


> every feeding has a light fertilizer solution instead of just giving the plant a periodic dose



Minor correction.... Every watering has fertilizer content,

Probably a better choice of words would be "constant" feeding. Meaning continuous with a constant amount without interruption.


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## Rick (Nov 29, 2012)

Cheyenne said:


> About the pitting amendments, I have always believed that the potting amendments like oyster shell and limestone chips were to keep PH in the pot at an acceptable range. 6-7 seems to be a common ground where most things are available to the plants. If you grow in S/H or some other way where you PH isn't going to drop drastically then you would never need to add them. But if you grow in bark and are not right on top of your repotting schedule then the PH drops as the bark degrades. I can see it in my plants. I was never under the impression that oyster shells would dissolve fast enough to provide the plants with an adequate amount of calcium. Dolomite power may do a little better at providing some calcium. When I first started growing I had alot of conversations with growers about this and the concensus seemed to be the same oyster shell for PH adjustment, cal nitrate for calcium. So I dont see why you would not need to add it with k-lite because the ph is still going to drop.



The material in oyster shell or lime/stone is calcium carbonate. As it dissociates (in acidic soils) it releases calcium and bicarbonate. The bicarbonate is the chemical that buffers the pH (as alkalinity), but the calcium either gets picked up or flushed away. 

Soil pH (kind of a big environmental black box concept) controls the uptake of lots of different materials, bicarbonate ion (also available from baking soda or soda ash) is directly part of the uptake of nitrogen (specifically ammonia). So that's why K lite (98% or so nitrogen from nitrate) should not use lots of calcareous potting ammendments.

In the absence of soil ammendments, soil pH can be controled by use of increasing percentage of inorganic media in the mix, and watering frequency.

One of the reasons soil goes acidic under high ammonia fertilization rates, is that nitrificatious bacteria use alkalinity to convert ammonia to nitrate. In the process of loosing alkalinity, pH drops.

So pH drop can be just another symptom of overfeeding since significant nitrification in the potting mix means you are feeding the bacteria in the potting mix instead of the plant.


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## wjs2nd (Nov 29, 2012)

Thanks Rick. I'm guessing this process will increase the breaking-down of your medium. This in-turn increase the nitrification process which increase your medium break-down (a vicious cycle).


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## Cheyenne (Nov 29, 2012)

So if you feed at a low rate will the ph stay constant for an infinite number of years with no drop at all? Even in bark that has turned to dirt. 
Have you checked this, let bark turn to dirt while only fertilizing at a low rate and checked the PH the periodically throughout the process?


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## Rick (Nov 29, 2012)

Cheyenne said:


> So if you feed at a low rate will the ph stay constant for an infinite number of years with no drop at all? Even in bark that has turned to dirt.
> Have you checked this, let bark turn to dirt while only fertilizing at a low rate and checked the PH the periodically throughout the process?



I'll never admit to infinite:wink:

But there are also organic acids that come out of bark and moss products that lower pH.

But working with a fresh batch of sphagnum moss in a single basket I did find over the coarse of a year, that the organic acids in the moss that were forcing the pH to about 6.0 initially, flushed out. So by the time the moss was pretty well broken down and crumbling, I was getting pH a bit higher than 7.0 in flush water (esentially the assumed organic acids had been washed away and not effecting pour through pH).

I work in the waste water biz, which focuses on nitrifciation. It's pretty amazing how much a small amount of these bacteria can change the environment. Bill Argo (in consideration of the development of the "rain water and well water" forms of MSU also considered the nitrification effect in developing the 2 formulations.


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## Ray (Nov 29, 2012)

Linus_Cello said:


> Ray- can you address continuous feeding using K-lite and: (1) hydrogen peroxide and (2) seaweed extract?


Hydrogen peroxide? Essentially no nutrient value whatsoever, and probably has little-to-no effect on the nutrients.

Seaweed? Probably some trace elements, but I use it for the auxins to stimulate growth, not as a nutritional supplement.


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## Justin (Nov 29, 2012)

wjs2nd said:


> Ray: thanks for the explanations! I finally feel like I understand how to measure %N for feeding (at 12.5 N per teaspoon, 4 teaspoons will give you 50 ppm N per gallon of water). It is good to know that both are meant for continual feeding. I guess I should have clarified that I didn't mean alternating between the two every watering, but more spacing the change out (few months MSU, few months K-Lite). Of course, this was also before I knew K-Lite was derived from MSU.



4 tsp? that sounds like a lot.


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## SlipperFan (Nov 29, 2012)

Justin said:


> 4 tsp? that sounds like a lot.



I agree, 4 tsp. to attain 50 ppm can't be right. For MSU RO, to get 125 ppm N use .768 teaspoon (That is directly from the Greencare label for MSU RO). If K-lite is based on the same formula, the proportion should be the same.


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## Rick (Nov 29, 2012)

Missed 1 part of the math.

12.5 ppm of N for EACH 1% of N on the label.

So if the fert mix is 12% N (look at the NPK label on the bottle) then each teaspon yields 150 ppm of N.

So if shooting for 50ppm final then 50/150 = 1/3 of a Tsp.


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## SlipperFan (Nov 29, 2012)

Much better!!! Thanks for the clarification, Rick!


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## wjs2nd (Nov 29, 2012)

Okay, I thought that was high but I don't have a lot of experience with this. 
So if grow more 20-10-20 has 20% N 
Then, 1 teaspoon yields 200 ppm of N
So a 1/4 teaspoon would be 50 ppm of N
I planning on getting MSU and am trying to figure out the math first.

Ray's math makes sence to me now. I had some trouble following the wording. Math is easier for me to follow with more of an exsample based problem.


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## Rick (Nov 29, 2012)

Well if the 1tsp = 12.5ppm holds up for your fert then that's actually 250 ppm per tsp. and a 1/4 tsp is 62.5 ppm (close enough to 50).

However, volume of fert (tsp) doesn't always track with weight.

So you might expect to be off by 20% or more measuring different solids by volume rather than weight.

That's because the NPK values are % based on weight of the different ingredients.

For instance a 20-10-20 fert has 20% N by weight so every 100 grams of fert has 20 grams of N 10 grams of P (actually phosphate) and 20 grams of K (actuall potash). For one thing notice that the sum of those 3 doesn't add up to 100 grams.

Then which takes up more space? a pound of lead shot or a pound of feathers? Different solids have different densities, so a Tsp of feathers is going to have a lot less mass of product than a Tsp of lead shot.

Fortunately fertilizer salts aren't as extreme as feathers and lead shot for density differences so you can usually get away with tsp measurements and be close enough.


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## rangiku (Nov 29, 2012)

Link to Ray's fertilizer calculator. Very, very helpful. Scroll down to "Nitrogen Management".

https://www.firstrays.com/fertcalc.htm


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## keithrs (Nov 30, 2012)

k-lite data sheet


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## keithrs (Nov 30, 2012)

H2O2 is used in hydroponics to one supply O2 to the roots and two to disinfect the feed stock.


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## wjs2nd (Nov 30, 2012)

Thanks Rick, I was not figuring the ppm x each % of N. Haha, I finally have it figured out. I was realizing later on my math was missing something I just didn't know what yet.
Using grow more as an example isn't perfect. It doesn't show ppm just %s. So for the example, we'll assume it is 12.5ppm per % of N.
12.5ppm X 20%N = 250ppm of N per teaspoon.
250ppm of N / by 4(gives you quarters) = 62.5
Cool, now I finally have it. Thanks Rick! 
Thanks rangiku, Ray's fert mix calculator is very nice and helpful, but there is just something about being able to do it yourself.


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## Ray (Nov 30, 2012)

Rick said:


> However, volume of fert (tsp) doesn't always track with weight.


That's absolutely correct Rick, but if you look at the bulk density of fertilizer powders and that of liquids, it's close enough.

As a materials engineer, I always worried about that very mass/volume conversion, but later learned that it's not so far off to be a concern, and when you throw in the fact that we are making VERY dilute solutions anyway, it really is no reason to be concerned.


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## Rick (Nov 30, 2012)

Ray said:


> That's absolutely correct Rick, but if you look at the bulk density of fertilizer powders and that of liquids, it's close enough.
> 
> As a materials engineer, I always worried about that very mass/volume conversion, but later learned that it's not so far off to be a concern, and when you throw in the fact that we are making VERY dilute solutions anyway, it really is no reason to be concerned.



Yup No reason to go out and by a scale.

I mentioned probably being off by maybe 20% as no big deal.


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## gonewild (Nov 30, 2012)

Rick said:


> Yup No reason to go out and by a scale.
> 
> I mentioned probably being off by maybe 20% as no big deal.



And the target ppm is only a guess anyway. The important thing is to remain consistent so you can look back and know what has actually been applied.


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## Ray (Nov 30, 2012)

gonewild said:


> And the target ppm is only a guess anyway. The important thing is to remain consistent so you can look back and know what has actually been applied.



Yes. Be consistent and be observant, so you can react quickly if you see an issue.

One thing Bill Argo did mention is that once a plant has developed a nutrient deficiency, it's not a "quick fix" to correct it, but that it will take a long time to recover. If you think about what we've discussed in these several threads - stuff like "RO only for 6 months before starting the new fertilizer" or "CaNO3 & Epsom Salts only for a year with no trace elements" - and *with no sign of any issues*, it stands to reason that the physiological changes connected to nutrition are VERY slow in plants, so the development of deficiencies and the recovery from them might be long-term issues.

I would have to consider nitrogen to be an exception, but it's such a huge part of the overall picture, that stands to reason as well.


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## wjs2nd (Nov 30, 2012)

Thanks Ray. It's very interesting about long term effects taking awhile to clear up. Roots can only take in nutrients so fast.


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## NYEric (Nov 30, 2012)

I am so under-nourishing my plants!


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## wjs2nd (Nov 30, 2012)

NYEric said:


> I am so under-nourishing my plants!



It makes you wonder.


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## rangiku (Nov 30, 2012)

wjs2nd said:


> Thanks rangiku, Ray's fert mix calculator is very nice and helpful, but there is just something about being able to do it yourself.


Totally agree with you. Glad Ray shared the formula here.


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