# Strange behaving Phragmipedium dalessandroi



## Lars Pedersen (Sep 12, 2011)

Hi

Can anyone tell me what is going on....

I imported 4 plants labeled Phragmipedium dalessandroi.

One of them turns out to become apron. 2 times the size of the others.
It puts up a stem now that is really ...REALLY big.

It is now a bit further, so I can see that in the first floral bract, a flower or a branch is forming.

....and what is even more puzzling is that a second stem - normal size - is emerging from the same point as the big one....???

More pictures will come when it becomes visible enough to photograph it.

.....anyone seen or heart of something like that before ?












Here is a picture of one of the normal ones 







Looks like dalessandroi or natural hybrid ?


Lars


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## Shiva (Sep 12, 2011)

Wow! It certainly will be interesting to see what happens next. One thing sure, you got one strong dalessandroi.


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## ohio-guy (Sep 12, 2011)

Could it have become a polyploid (4N) somehow?


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## NYEric (Sep 12, 2011)

The top fotos are Pk! oke:
No, I really have no idea. Nice looking blooms though, thanks for posting and good luck.


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## Lars Pedersen (Sep 12, 2011)

Ok, I Foundation another thread on multispiking:

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21086

But I dont use hor ones or heavy fertilizing...
I guess that sometimes it just happens..


Lars


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## valenzino (Sep 13, 2011)

Just wait for the flower,is very interesting,if it is a dalessandroii...


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## cnycharles (Sep 13, 2011)

I think babies got switched in the nursery, time for a blood sample!


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## Sirius (Sep 13, 2011)

cnycharles said:


> I think babies got switched in the nursery, time for a blood sample!



Take the plant on the Maury Povich show. He can do a scandalous "Which of these three orchids is my baby's daddy?" special.

Disclaimer* This is only funny if you are familiar with daytime, U.S. television programs. And even then, it's not that funny.


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## koshki (Sep 13, 2011)

John, wouldn't life be wonderful if Maury Povich actually did shows on orchids??!!


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## Lars Pedersen (Sep 20, 2011)

Here is a couple of more photos.




























On the last one you can see - apart from the 2 new growths - the extra small spike comming up from basis.

Maybe it will turn out as the ones at the famous picture of the group from Jersey displayed as besseae ? (see here http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=34367 )

More will come when it is more developed


Lars


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## Shiva (Sep 20, 2011)

Certainly an exciting plant and an exciting time for you. I'm already very jealous.


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## valenzino (Sep 20, 2011)

The additional stem can be in reality a branching that has start growing down in the low part of the stem


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## SlipperFan (Sep 20, 2011)

Shiva said:


> Certainly an exciting plant and an exciting time for you. I'm already very jealous.



My thoughts, exactly!


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## Lars Pedersen (Oct 7, 2011)

Well it is developing...

looks like 5 flowers at one time.

And the more I study it I think it is a normal Phrag. dalessandroi, true to the type specimen described by Olaf Gruß.

Also, like Kyle points out, the leaves are very very wide and long.
Overall this is going to become a very big plant in the coming years.






Here it is in the windowsill .... in cat safe hight  with more Phrags and Paphs.

:wink:
Lars


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## Shiva (Oct 7, 2011)

This thing is enormous compared to my unflowered ''flowering size'' dalessandroi. How big was it when you bought it? :smitten:


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## NYEric (Oct 7, 2011)

There is no such thing as cat safe!


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## Shiva (Oct 7, 2011)

Wrong thread Eric. But I really was thinking of the safety of the cat...!:evil:


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## SlipperFan (Oct 7, 2011)

What a beautiful plant!!!


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## NYEric (Oct 7, 2011)

Lars Pedersen said:


> Here it is in the windowsill .... in cat safe hight  :wink:
> Lars





Shiva said:


> Wrong thread Eric. But I really was thinking of the safety of the cat...!:evil:



No, correct thread, and if the cat knocked that over or otherwise damaged it I think the cat would be wondering about its own safety!! oke:


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## Shiva (Oct 7, 2011)




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## cnycharles (Oct 7, 2011)

are you sure that this is a seedling? I would be surprised if anything that large turned out to be d'alessandroi. how many besseae were ever that large and vigorous from seedling stage? am curious to see what it turns out to be, though!


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## Roth (Oct 8, 2011)

The plants from Ecuagenera if that's the ones I think those are were not seedlings, but wild collected plants... ( as usual with them anyway). I do not think they had any hybrids ( except what they import for the local pot plant market...).

It can well be a dalessandroi, I have seen such plants at the Eric Young that were that big. I tend to think that there are more types of besseae/dalessandroi than the botanists and people think. For me the crappy single flowered plants sold as dalessandroi for years were clearly not dalessandroi, despite the chromosome count. Years ago as well, people sold besseae Zamore Paute, Ecuador... and in fact for years, nearly no one could get a besseae in Peru ( Arias used to import those from Ecuador). Recently they have been rediscovered, and there are some very interesting things in those new wild plants, including another flavum apparently.


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## Lars Pedersen (Oct 8, 2011)

When I got it, it was flowerig size. But not bigger than an average besseae.
That was in april 2010.

I have 4 more plants, also dalesessandroi, All of them from Mundiflora, also in Cuenca, and all are divisions of wild plants they had permission to collect when they started up.

I bought 5, so I thought that I had a bigger chance of getting the real thing after several years of buying besseae labeled as dalessandroi.
Some of the others are showing potential too, so maybe next year ......


Lars


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## Kavanaru (Oct 8, 2011)

very nice... interesting development on this plant....


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## Lars Pedersen (Oct 11, 2011)

A flower is opening now, and more will follow in the comming days












Well, there is no doubt in my mind anymore. It is a Phrag. dalessandroi.

I have not studied the flower yet, but the facts that the leaves are up to 6,5 cm wide and up to 39 cm long from base to tip, and flowers comming out in the right angle all point in the right direction, acording to Kyles fine description.

More pictures when all flowers are open.... hopefuly at the same time.

 I am happy.

Lars


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## Shiva (Oct 11, 2011)

You should be! You're a very lucky guy.


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## NYEric (Oct 11, 2011)

Show me when its open all the way, please.


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## SlipperFan (Oct 11, 2011)

Where *is* that jealous smiley?!!


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## Lars Pedersen (Oct 19, 2011)

*Phrag. dalessandroi*

Just a small update.

No doubt any more. It is a dalessandroi true to the type.

I will post more when fully open.


Lars


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## Roth (Oct 19, 2011)

I have never seen a plant like that since Alan Moon showed those to me in 1993... This explains too why I always remember the tetraploid 'besseae' from the Eric Young as having massive leaves, branching spikes... I think that tetraploids out of your plant would be really interesting... It confirms too that most dalessandroi in cultivation are most likely not dalessandroi, no matter the flower size shape, etc...

I remember that Don Wimber told me in those days that the caryotypes were way different between what they called the Besseae Zamora, Paute, and new type in those days. Not only the counts, but the morphology by itself.

It was nearly 18 years ago.


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## Trimorph (Oct 19, 2011)

Really a great plant, I like the multibloom!
Would like to take it too 

Trimorph


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## Shiva (Oct 19, 2011)

Roth said:


> It confirms too that most dalessandroi in cultivation are most likely not dalessandroi, no matter the flower size shape, etc...




It may be so, but in my opinion, one extraordinary plant doesn't mean all the other dalessandroi are not really dalessandroi.


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## cnycharles (Oct 19, 2011)

nice plant!


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## Rick (Oct 19, 2011)

Roth said:


> I have never seen a plant like that since Alan Moon showed those to me in 1993... This explains too why I always remember the tetraploid 'besseae' from the Eric Young as having massive leaves, branching spikes... I think that tetraploids out of your plant would be really interesting... It confirms too that most dalessandroi in cultivation are most likely not dalessandroi, no matter the flower size shape, etc...
> 
> I remember that Don Wimber told me in those days that the caryotypes were way different between what they called the Besseae Zamora, Paute, and new type in those days. Not only the counts, but the morphology by itself.
> 
> It was nearly 18 years ago.



We don't consider polyploids of rothschildianum (or any other described species) to be different species. So why would a tetraploid, giant dalessandroi, be a different species from the normal smaller dalessandroi?

You have mentiond both long and short leaf sanderianums found in Borneo, but didn't declare them different species.

Watusi and Pigmy in Africa are both still Homo sapiens.


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## Lars Pedersen (Oct 19, 2011)

Hi

I dont know if it is a tetrapoid plant. If it is, it is a natural one.

The thing I have been looking at, is that it looks like these:
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=34367 

The top one is the typeplant for Phrag. dalessandroi.
The spike with branches, the flowers, and that all flowers open at the same time, makes me think that it is the same plant.

I too have not seen these plants, other than on the photos on the above link.
They are from Jersey like Roth says.
And that is the real mystery to me... is it because they are not around in collections ?

I Think there is alot more to be Said in the besseae / dalessandroi / Jersey diskussion, but I know too litle about it to sort it out.


The important thing is that finally I have got it, after many years of searching.
I will try to self it and make it availible to other growers.


Lars


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## cnycharles (Oct 19, 2011)

it seems that the type plant and this one could be tetraploid, with the smaller versions just ones with 'normal' chromosomes? could be that a larger (tetraploid) plant caught the eye first and was described before the normal version?


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## NYEric (Oct 22, 2011)

Put me on the list.


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## Roth (Oct 22, 2011)

Shiva said:


> It may be so, but in my opinion, one extraordinary plant doesn't mean all the other dalessandroi are not really dalessandroi.



One plant yes, but at the time of Alan Moon, who 'got' the first dalessandroi, they got quite a lot of jungle dalessandroi. 

Some others were growing at De Wilg, all very, very big plants. 

When the Eric Young made the colchicine treatment of those dalessandroi, the plants were even bigger than Lars plant, the leaves were wider than my hand... But the original wild plants were absolutely massive, nothing to do with the besseae-size plants sold under the name of dalessandroi.



Rick said:


> We don't consider polyploids of rothschildianum (or any other described species) to be different species. So why would a tetraploid, giant dalessandroi, be a different species from the normal smaller dalessandroi?
> 
> You have mentiond both long and short leaf sanderianums found in Borneo, but didn't declare them different species.
> 
> Watusi and Pigmy in Africa are both still Homo sapiens.



The story is a bit more complcated. In fact Don Wimber made a lot of chromosome countings, and he found that some of the 'besseae' did have 2n=28. The plants were very strong, with branching spikes, and the backbone of the EYOF Phrag breeding. They were described afterwards as 'dalessandroi'. He made Phragmipedium Jersey ( besseae x dalessandroi, 2n=24 x 2n=28), that were absolutely sterile at their diploid stage, but the colchicine converted plants (tetraploids...) were fertile. So at that time it confirmed that dalessandroi and besseae were definitely different species.

Afterwards, those giant dalessandroi disappeared. Many plants were sold under the name of dalessandroi, about the size of a besseae, and people were looking at the staminodium... OK... that's besseae. OK that's dalessandroi. Chromosome counts were made 'again' on those small plants sold as dalessandroi, and found to be 2n=24.

As no one saw again a besseae or dalessandroi with 2n=28, the people just said that Don Wimber made a mistake when counting the original dalessandroi, end of the story. No explanation why the first Jersey made at the EYOF were sterile, nothing. 

Now, with Lars plant, I would be very curious to know its chromosome counting, and I would suspect it to be 2n=28. That's why I say that it would be the first time that genuine dalessandroi appear after 20 years, because since that, all the 'dalessandroi' sold had the same chromosome number as besseae...



cnycharles said:


> it seems that the type plant and this one could be tetraploid, with the smaller versions just ones with 'normal' chromosomes? could be that a larger (tetraploid) plant caught the eye first and was described before the normal version?



No, Don Wimber counted the big dalessandroi, 2n=28.... Besseae 2n=24. People said he made a mistake ( he was however the father of the colchicine treatment, chromosome counting for orchids, and scientific breeding of orchids), because all dalessandroi known since had 2n=24. Having known Don Wimber, I know he would not make such a mistake, that's why I am sure Lars plant would be 2n=28 and a 'real' dalessandroi.

All those early EYOF besseae, dalessandroi, etc... disappeared from everywhere, though they were available. Alan Moon offered to me dalessandroi and besseae at the WOC Glasgow, then a couple of years later. They had hundreds of seedlings There were as well amazing longifolium, with flowers maybe 30 cm, and hundreds of hybrids. I saw heaps of them sold at orchid shows in England for the next 4-5 years. Then no more, nowhere. That's why I do not believe a species can survive in cultivation for very long, because none of those original dalessandroi from the EYOF, their progeny, etc... are around anymore.

As an aside the Besseae flava original one had micronuclei, and some chromosome were clearly damaged. It existed a kind of violet colored besseae that died shortly after having been introduced from the wild. I saw once a picture at the EYOF. It existed too besseae with very big transparent windows in the pouch, from top to bottom, I saw those at the Eric Young, they had maybe a dozen wild plants of it back then. That would be really interesting to get many more old EYOF photos of besseae, etc... to see how things were at that time...


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## Lars Pedersen (Oct 22, 2011)

Hi again

I contacted the Eric Young Orchid Foundation, to try to clear things up.

Nice people, but obviously none from back then, when they had the plants photographed by Olaf.
Nobody could enlighten me.

But I got one important answer. Colchicine treatment would not make a plant mulifloral.
It will make a bigger plant, and bigger flowers yes, but it wil not make it go from sequential flowering to multi flowering.

So I have no reason to believe it is a tetraploid.
I know of no one who can make a count.....

Does anyone know if the plants Dennis found was multi floral ?
And does any pictures exist of his original collected plant ( and maybe habitat ? )

I have been looking for this plant for many years, so I will do some research....... I think there is a lot more to be said about the besseae / dalessandroi complex.

I will try to self it, and make some flasks.

Kind regards
Lars


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## Roth (Oct 22, 2011)

Lars Pedersen said:


> Hi again
> 
> I contacted the Eric Young Orchid Foundation, to try to clear things up.
> 
> ...



No one at the Eric Young knows anymore the story of most of EYOF plants, only the books, but the 'real' story, no one. Alan Moon has been 'retired', Martin Ahring passed away, and most of the people around the ealy 90's are not there anymore, Don Wimber passed away too, John Hainsworth died a decade ago...

Your plant is definitely a diploid. 

The original plants of dalessandroi came from Henry Azadehdel himself. He brought those in around 1986-1987 ( he was arrested with more dalessandroi in his suitcase in 1987, the beginning of the end). He supplied some to Germany as well, and to the Netherlands. I got the story from Norman Heywood, who was a customer of Henry at a point, and the owner of Orchid Sundries in England, and got it confirmed by some people at the Eric Young.

For some years, no one knew where he got many of his plants from. Boscha Popow knew some parts, but for some others Henry Azadehdel worked with several other people.

It is worth noting that Azadehdel was not exactly the random poacher that many people think. He was selecting very, very carefully all the plants, of course to get more money out of them, but most of the plants he supplied got awards or were award quality. Afterwards started a massive flood of paphs and phrags, good or bad quality flowers... no one cared anymore. Anyway.

The last thing, apparently Azadehdel had connections with some highly influential people from former USSR. There are UFO's reports, and some reports about the phone line etc... that are weird and would make him look like a mythomaniac, but the real, true, fact, he had access even in a very closed Vietnam or China, to remote area forbidden to even non resident, could travel freely, pick up plants, buy. Where in the Vietnam of the early 80's it was not 'so easy' to be mild.

I know as well he went to Mozambique, helped by people from the Frelimo, a marxist organization, linked tightly to former USSR, and brought back amazing aerangis rhodosticta, etc...

Dennis D'Alessandro supplied them at a point too, and he supplied some genuine dalessandroi as well later on. For habitat original pictures, you know, to be honest... now it is possible to travel really to the sources, jungle, wild. In those days, it was damn expensive, not worth it, so most of those 'plant hunters' hunted the plants at the local nurseries in the major cities and not so major cities. Paphiopedilum henryanum came originally from a woman, who still has photos of Henry Azadehdel with her at her nursery (now long time closed) in Hanoi. She got them from a trader, who got them from the collectors... Many plants have never been seen in their habitat until recently. Some have not yet been seen, or only by a very few people. And in some cases, I have seen amazing things, but the collectors would never allow anyone to bring a camera, or even a handphone with possible GPS to the location.

Afterwards, we started to get a lot of things under the name besseae, dalessandroi... some hybrids as well and the situation became a real mess.

What would be really interesting is to make chromosome counting of Lars plant, some dalessandroi in the trade, and some besseae, and see what's going on.


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## cnycharles (Oct 22, 2011)

Roth said:


> Many plants have never been seen in their habitat until recently. Some have not yet been seen, or only by a very few people. And in some cases, I have seen amazing things, but the collectors would never allow anyone to bring a camera, or even a handphone with possible GPS to the location.



 hey, if some fool can try to make a bomb out of his underwear, someone almost as 'creative' should be able to make a gps that is 'unseen'

interesting info


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## ohio-guy (Oct 22, 2011)

Dr Robert of our forum does chromosome counting I think.


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## NYEric (Oct 22, 2011)

Very interesting and yes, we would like to see some of those old photos, Roth.


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## Roth (Oct 22, 2011)

NYEric said:


> Very interesting and yes, we would like to see some of those old photos, Roth.



I will try to ask people in England... So far we only got a handful of public ones, there were some in the RHS Orchid Review as I remember, and a visit in 1995 with the BOC where some people took photos as well. Not easy to find those people back. Martin Ahring took a lot of photos, I remember very well, he was more or less in charge of that, but I don't know where are the photos. When I asked about him, he just had committed suicide I have been told. Alan Moon is still at the RHS, but he cannot move so much ( and was not that much on the photographic side...), John Hainsworth in the early days, before he started to fight with Alan Moon did take many photos, he left to California and died of a lymphoma. I will see who else...

The Eric Young had a lot of mysteries as well in the odontoglossum and cymbidium, some were not exactly made the supposed parents. 

It was a wonderful place, with wonderful times in the early 90's. Whilst Chris Purver for sure runs it very well now, there has been a gap between Alan Moon/Don Wimber and him, where many informations and plants went lost.

Here is Alan Moon by the way with one of his Miltoniopsis hybrids:







and it was not the biggest he had bred. I remember one he showed to me with dinner plate flowers, over 20 cm, but he told me that the flower count was too low. It was not very long before he had to get his surgery that ended up his work with the Eric Young. Many people did not like Alan Moon too because they though he was selfish, and felt himself 'high class'. It was completely wrong, but he was a bit like Terry Root on that side, he knew so much that he liked to talk with people who knew their subject very well. As for me, it was after they showed an Adaglossum, very big orange flowers, twisted petals (but excellent symmetry), I was a teenager at that time, but told him that it should be awarded because the size of the flowers and the improvement over previous hybrids was tremendous. He though the same, but we were a bit of a minority, the judges passed it. That's how we came to discuss about a lot of various things, including with Don Wimber. Don Wimber was the man behind the scene to care about chromosome counting, breeding, and a part of the feeding schedule in rockwool. Alan Moon was more the artistic side, and the grower to team up with Don Wimber.

It is very interesting to know too that the Eric Young in those days did not have a laminar hood. Therefore ALL the awarded plants, fantastic plants, etc... have been done using a bunsen burner for the sowing, and a glove box for the replate. I visited the lab upstairs, it was highly primitive. Don Wimber would usually take and preserve all the root tips, and do the counting in Oregon. The sowings were all done on Tsuchiya media, liquid one. He showed to me as well a 5 liters erlenmeyer with a massive callus of phalaenopsis, maybe 20 cm diameter, no shaker, nothing... made in homemade Glove Box. I asked him how he did that, he said that the shaker was absolutely not needed if the media is changed, and the flask is hand shaked every few days. Years later I found he was absolutely right.

As an aside, that's me who gave to the Eric Young my division of the original besseae flavum ( therefore the Fox Valley Gold division) during a show in Brighton, directly to Alan Moon in those days. It was priceless at that time, but I did not like it :sob: and I though they could do better than me with that.

Olaf posted this photo as well some years ago:






Of the dalessandroi at the Eric Young. 

One more note, the besseae (real ones) from Peru do not produce stolons. The besseae from Ecuador do make stolons. However Don Wimber counted both types at 2n-24. Only the dalessandroi were counted at 2n=28. The hybrid was counted at 2n=26, but sterile... The tetraploids at 4n=52 were fertile. That's why there is a lot to dig up behind this.

The last point, I still remember the Phragmipedium Eric Young originally bred by the Eric Young and displayed at the WOC ( in the proceeding book there are photos of them too). They were the most amazing Eric Young I have ever seen, and some of the plants were simply monstruous. I have seen later supposed divisions, and the flower shape, leaf size, did not match at all the real plants from this era.


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## Fawkes (Oct 23, 2011)

Some years ago folks used dalessandroi in hybrids to get inflorescense branching and multiple open flowers. Memory fails me now, but I think that dalessandroi was lumped with besseae as a varietal form in earlier years.

That is a substantial plant in your pictures.


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## Phrag-Plus (Oct 27, 2011)

Congratulation! You did get a very nice dallessandroï! 
Very interesting thread too!


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## Lars Pedersen (Oct 27, 2011)

Thank you 

I have tried to self it......not sure I had any luck, beside ruining a few flowers.

So I have been searching a lot on the net, and of course I found out that it had to be wet. ( I have kids myself, so I should know  )

So I will try to self a few more flowers (or ruin a few more ).

If I succeed, how long do the seed capsules have to mature on the plant to send them of to someone as green capsules ?

.... also I try to ask around about clearing this thing with sequentially flowering / multi flowering types of dalessandroi.
I am quite sure it has nothing to do with ploidity. But what then ??

As I have said before, I think there is a lot more to be said about the besseae / dalessandroi complex. But maybe I should open a new thread in taxonomy about that. I know it is a "hot" subject, but one that needs to be sorted out at some point.

.... Of to spanish lessons...Adios 
Lars


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## NYEric (Oct 27, 2011)

If you open up this discussion to taxonomists they will start changing names on us! !!!


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## Lars Pedersen (Nov 8, 2011)

Here is a couple of picture more.
Not very good, they were taken in low lift with my phone, but hey give a impression of the inflorence with 5 flowers open.






And a bit closer 






The inflorence is leaning into the living room, because it is unsupported. But it is strong, so it is not a probleme, and we have a great view at the flowers that way.

.... any thoughts on sequential / multifloral type of dalessandroi ?
Because they are very different. Both regarding plant habit and inflorence.

Best from Denmark
Lars


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## Shiva (Nov 8, 2011)

NYEric said:


> If you open up this discussion to taxonomists they will start changing names on us! !!!



:rollhappy:


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## Marc (Nov 8, 2011)

Very impressive plant.

Any luck with the polinating.


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## NYEric (Nov 8, 2011)

This is without question dallessandroi, photo from Glanz is probably also dal.


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## cnycharles (Nov 9, 2011)

amazing plant and flowers! I would bet that if you put these pics on ebay you could make a few house payments with the proceeds! (except that I wouldn't be able to bid on in on this side of the ocean, nor would I have enough money to win)  good luck with the seeds, of course I would love to have some just like everyone else


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## tomkalina (Nov 9, 2011)

Sorry to get in on this thread so late, but that is a beautiful example of a true d'alessandroi. As far as habitat photos, here's one we took during a trip to Ecuador in 2005. As you can see, the habitat is very wet. Enjoy.....


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## Lars Pedersen (Nov 9, 2011)

Hi

Marc, no my first try to polinate it did not take. But I have nerver tried to do it before... polinating.
But I Will try again.
And if succesful, flasks will be offered to People's interested.
Because like Roth mention, I too have not seen these plants for many many years. In fact only on the pictures from the Eric Young Orchidfoundation.

Tom, it looks like the same place I vIsited last year. There are some pictures here:
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18269&highlight=Ecuador

Thanks All for your coments.
......and sory NyEric.." I just have to start the diskussion as soon as I have got all my thoughts and observations put on paper :sob:

Thanks
Lars


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## grasshopper (Nov 9, 2011)

Count me in on a flask!


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## tomkalina (Nov 9, 2011)

Hi Lars,

Your photos do look familiar. Were they taken around the area of Chiguinda? That is a popular place, especially if you go on the Ecuagenera tour. BTW - for those of you looking for seedlings of the true species, we have them......

Thanks,


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## Heather (Nov 9, 2011)

Fascinating thread and history - thanks everyone!


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