# Dwarf form of Cypripedium parviflorum in Newfoundland



## toddybear (Jun 4, 2009)

I rescued this small clump of native Cypripedium parviflorums from northern Newfoundland last summer. Considering they were dug in July, they came through fine. I was hoping they would turn out to be the Newfoundland form called planipetalum but alas, they are not. However, the plants are only 15 cm high with no hint of brown in the petals...quite delightful!


----------



## raymond (Jun 4, 2009)

very nice


----------



## SlipperKing (Jun 4, 2009)

Nice Todd. Why the rescue?


----------



## Jorch (Jun 4, 2009)

I love the color! :drool:


----------



## L I Jane (Jun 4, 2009)

Beautiful!


----------



## nikv (Jun 4, 2009)

Very nice! And I'll also chime in. Why the rescue? Was its habitat about to be destroyed?


----------



## Drorchid (Jun 4, 2009)

Very yellow!

Robert


----------



## toddybear (Jun 4, 2009)

Yes, a parking lot was being constructed where they grew....thankfully, it was the only clump being affected....mind you the perimeter of the parking lot is now dotted with lady's-slippers that barely escaped!


----------



## nikv (Jun 4, 2009)

I'm glad you were able to rescue them! They are indeed lovely!


----------



## bench72 (Jun 4, 2009)

"they paved paradise and put up a parking lot"

good work rescuing these beauties!


----------



## NYEric (Jun 4, 2009)

Damn metric conversions!  6" pretty small. Thanx for posting.


----------



## SlipperFan (Jun 4, 2009)

bench72 said:


> "they paved paradise and put up a parking lot"



I hope the rest don't get trampled. Good rescue, indeed!


----------



## biothanasis (Jun 4, 2009)

WOW!!! They are so beautiful!!!


----------



## KyushuCalanthe (Jun 4, 2009)

Very cool Todd! I agree they aren't the planipetalum type, but that form really is variable anyway. It will be interesting to see if yours change stature over time. Lovely lemony flowers and the orange-red around the lip orifice and staminode is a nice touch.


----------



## Kevin (Jun 4, 2009)

Very nice colour on those. Haven't seen many that short. As for the var. planipetalum, check out this link http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=1&taxon_id=242101551 What is called var. planipetalum is actually just var. pubescens that looks a bit different due to the habitat. This petal feature does not breed true, since it is an evironmental factor, not genetics.


----------



## KyushuCalanthe (Jun 4, 2009)

Kevin said:


> Very nice colour on those. Haven't seen many that short. As for the var. planipetalum, check out this link http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=1&taxon_id=242101551 What is called var. planipetalum is actually just var. pubescens that looks a bit different due to the habitat. This petal feature does not breed true, since it is an evironmental factor, not genetics.



Most botanists agree with this and Dr. Charles Sheviak has even done experiments with varieties pubescens and "planipetalum" to prove the latter to be an ecotype. However, I know of a couple folks who have been growing this variety for several years and the petals have remained more or less flat and the plants haven't gained in stature. So, perhaps the jury is still out on whether there is no genetic influence.


----------



## Kevin (Jun 4, 2009)

I think they will continue to have that feature, as long as the habitat remains the same. The people you know, where are they growing them, and where did the plants come from? I wouldn't mind getting one of these and seeing how it does here. This 'variety' has been found in Manitoba, but I've never seen it.


----------



## fundulopanchax (Jun 4, 2009)

A very pretty clone! Congratulations!

Ron


----------



## parvi_17 (Jun 4, 2009)

I love it!


----------



## cyprimaniac (Jun 5, 2009)

hey,
this is an interresting discussion about the "planipetalum".

I am not a botanist, 
but in fact, the RHS accepts it as "distinct", 

and you can find an accepted hybrid, made with planipetalum.
so you can see, 
that *Cyp. Betty Maier* has the "flat" petals from its parent:

*Cypr. Betty Maier *(macranthos X planipetalum)






otherwise it would be like the famous Aki (or Gisela), 
which ALWAYS has twisted petals,
to see in Werner Froschs web site:
http://www.w-frosch.de/Cypris/Hybriden/aki.htm
http://www.w-frosch.de/Cypris/Hybriden/gisel.htm

or in my pic.
*Cypr. Gisela* (macranthos X pubescens)






enjoy
dieter


----------



## P-chan (Jun 5, 2009)

They're so sweet! Nice save.


----------



## NYEric (Jun 5, 2009)

Wow, did we just get burned!?


----------



## KyushuCalanthe (Jun 5, 2009)

Kevin said:


> The people you know, where are they growing them, and where did the plants come from? I wouldn't mind getting one of these and seeing how it does here. This 'variety' has been found in Manitoba, but I've never seen it.



In Canada. They are grown much like their neighboring larger cousin, v. pubescens, that is, in a garden setting. I've never seen these for sale though, so cultivated specimens are likely wild sourced. It would be nice to get seed of some wild plants and grow them up to lay to rest the nature/nurture argument once and for all. 

Interesting observations Dieter. I'd like to see more pictures of Betty Maier to confirm that the flat petals are consistent across the range of plants. Regarding RHS and acceptable names for parent plants, they definitely are very lax about this. For example, they accept "speciosum" and "hoteiatsumorianum" as acceptable names to create new hybrids even though both varieties fall under the species concept of C. macranthos to date.


----------



## Kevin (Jun 6, 2009)

Thanks Dieter. That's interesting. Although, Cyp. Gisela is using var. parviflorum (or perhaps makasin), and not pubescens. That would be Aki. I'd like to see more of this Cyp. Betty Maier. 

KyushuCalanthe - I agree, I'd like some more testing to be done too. I've definitely learned a lot about the RHS since joining this forum. Seems the'll accept almost any cross, and change the rules whenever they want. I know they are the final word, but don't they take into account respected taxonomists' writings and findings? Sometimes they do, I guess, which leads to things like Sophronitis purpurata, and then sometimes they don't like in this var. planipetalum case. Weird. 

What I meant by my question, is, did the plants come from a very 'harsh' environment, and is that where they are being grown now? Newfoundland has the most cases of this 'variety', and, although it is not as cold as other areas, it would be classified as 'harsh' - am I right, Todd? If transplanted to a less 'harsh' location, the theory is that they would revert back to the typical var. pubescens look.


----------



## cyprimaniac (Jun 6, 2009)

hey, 
I dont know, how many "planipetalums" you have seen.

I have seen several from different sources/cultivators here in Germany.
they are in cultivation for long time here, 
and they are not from only one imported plant..
but they all are smaller growing plants,
always! have (more or less) flat petals.

I had long correspondence with the RHS 
conc. the acceptance of those "forms" 
and after some discussion they accepted *again in 2006 *
the planipetalum as a sep. "form" for registrating this hybrid 
*after deleting the first registration from 1999!*

this is a pic from the breeder Erich Maier.
I have not seen many, but some, 
and they always have that flat petals







BTW I have much more problems to accept "alba forms" as a separate parent
(as per new hybrid "Charles Frail")
*BUT WHY NOT..............*

so think what you like, 
but enjoy
dieter


----------



## cyprimaniac (Jun 6, 2009)

Kevin said:


> ....... Although, Cyp. Gisela is using var. parviflorum (or perhaps makasin), and not pubescens. That would be Aki.




ok Kevin, you are right.
in fact, MY pic is *Aki* and not *Gisela*, 
its wrong named in the former posting, 
sorry about that..................

but if you follow the two links from # 20, 
you must state from the many pics, 
that there is no big difference in those two hybrids.
they have a wide color range
and variation of shape,
but they make the "twisted" petals 
in contrary to the *Betty Maier*

cheers 
dieter


----------



## KyushuCalanthe (Jun 6, 2009)

Kevin said:


> KyushuCalanthe - I agree, I'd like some more testing to be done too. I've definitely learned a lot about the RHS since joining this forum. Seems the'll accept almost any cross, and change the rules whenever they want. I know they are the final word, but don't they take into account respected taxonomists' writings and findings? Sometimes they do, I guess, which leads to things like Sophronitis purpurata, and then sometimes they don't like in this var. planipetalum case. Weird.



Yes, Kevin, I agree about RHS - they are very confusing. The again, just because someone's "in control", it doesn't make them "right." I have strong reservations about their free use of varietal forms, even largely unaccepted ones, as legitimate separate parents. Indeed weird.



> What I meant by my question, is, did the plants come from a very 'harsh' environment, and is that where they are being grown now? Newfoundland has the most cases of this 'variety', and, although it is not as cold as other areas, it would be classified as 'harsh' - am I right, Todd? If transplanted to a less 'harsh' location, the theory is that they would revert back to the typical var. pubescens look.



As Dieter suggests, this is not always the case, hence the likelihood that some genetic differences really exist. Honestly, despite work done by various botanists in the past (most notably Dr. Charles Sheviak) the species concept of C. parviflorum remains complex and hazy at best. The variety commonly called v. pubescens is found over an immense geographic area and necessarily different populations are under extremely different selective pressures. Western Canadian plants in particular are poorly studied. It would be nice if someone would do a comprehensive study of this species throughout its range, including all varieties, to clear up this confusion. Sounds like a great doctoral dissertation!

Dieter, yes, there should be some overlap in Gisela and Aki since both v. parviflorum and v. pubescens are such variable plants. It is very interesting to see these "v. planipetalum" crosses. Do you have any pics of the straight variety, that is, of plants being grown in Germany?


----------



## cnycharles (Jun 6, 2009)

though some of these plants may have genetics that are reasonably the same but look different in north and south, just because a gene is the same doesn't mean that it will look or grow the same. if the environmental triggers that have set off or turned down the genes for height (making a smaller plant) haven't been reversed, then the plants will stay smaller. I have heard about the plants being taken from northern canada to new york and they have reverted, it could be that there was enough summer heat stress here to snap the genetic expression back to taller plants. also for some reason maybe it doesn't get as extreme in germany and nearby so that these genes aren't changing expression. also again if they have been selected for flatter and/or shorter plants when in cultivation it may become harder for the genes to switch. one last also, as already stated here there likely are plants that have more 'short' expression than other populations so that they seem to breed true to 'flat'. I know from trying to i.d. spiranthes from species/hybrid swarms of different shape but mostly same genetics, it is very difficult to tell what is a 'species' or not (headaches!)

nice looking flowers, though!


----------



## cyprimaniac (Jun 6, 2009)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> Do you have any pics of the straight variety, that is, of plants being grown in Germany?



hey Tom,
I have seen several, 
grown for many years here in Germany,
ALL have the same tiny growth and (more or less) "flat petals"
but only have THIS pic:






cheers
dieter


----------



## toddybear (Jun 6, 2009)

Wow, I never imagined the stimulating converstaion that my pics would illicit!

The plant in question came indeed from a harsh environment....windswept, near the ocean in northernmost Newfoundland. Most of the forms there are quite short in stature. Some have mostly yellow flowers, others more typical with mahogany petals....I would think more are pure yellow. Twisting of the petals may be non-exisitant or more commonly, restricted to just a single twist.

Where the plant is now growing is in our botanical garden (where I work)....not harsh at all...quite sheltered in fact. This is the first year and the plant is still as short as it would be in the wild. Will this remain? I have no idea yet.

Meanwhile, our BG also has a form of parviflorum collected in western Newfoundland, an area not so harsh as northern Newfoundland. Those plants reach about 18" with larger flowers with longer, twisted petals...more in line with a typical parviflorum (at least those I've seen in western Canada). We have both a yellow and a mahogany form of the typical parviflorum. Again, even in sheltered natural range of this species in Newfoundland, the yellow form is more common than those with mahogany petals.


----------



## toddybear (Jun 6, 2009)

Here are pics of our more typical form











and a whole clump


----------



## SlipperFan (Jun 7, 2009)

Wow!


----------



## Yoyo_Jo (Jun 8, 2009)

Words escape me... :clap::clap::clap:


----------



## NYEric (Jun 8, 2009)

It's wild that the top photo w/ the dark petals is the same species.


----------



## KyushuCalanthe (Jun 9, 2009)

Nice pix Todd! It really is amazing how variable v. pubescens is - some look almost like v. parviflorum, some are huge, some are small...

Love that clump especially.


----------



## goldenrose (Jun 9, 2009)

STOP! STOP! I don't have the time, space or money! These cyps are killin' me!


----------



## NYEric (Jun 9, 2009)

There are some on eBay right now, and if Eric can grow them in NYC... :evil:


----------

