# Paphiopedilum druryi



## fibre (May 11, 2010)

This is a very interesting druryi. I got it from Kenntner in Germany.


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## GuRu (May 11, 2010)

Are you sure it's a straight druryi?? It might be a hybrid - at least in my eyes!!


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## John Boy (May 11, 2010)

it's this typical villosum x druryi!!!

This is a very fine, and very rare Hybird, and quite certainly not what you wanted Fibre?! Should you be interested to loose it again: I'd be very happy to find you something on my tables in return!

Thanks for showing!
JB


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## NYEric (May 11, 2010)

Def. not straight druryi .


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## emydura (May 11, 2010)

Yes, it doesn't look quite right. Whatever, it is stunning.

David


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## KyushuCalanthe (May 11, 2010)

Nice rich colors!


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## SlipperFan (May 11, 2010)

I like the flower -- but my first thought when I saw the picture was that it's not druryi.


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## fibre (May 12, 2010)

GuRu said:


> Are you sure it's a straight druryi?? It might be a hybrid - at least in my eyes!!



Ohh, I was quite sure, that you all would cry it is not a straight druryi! :clap:
I thougt the same, as the bud opened. I thougt it is druryi x exul, because of the big synsepalum . 
But Willi Kentner told me, he got this plant many many years ago. It was a natural collection from the far South of India. And there grows no villosum or exul for sure!


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## GuRu (May 12, 2010)

fibre said:


> ....But Willi Kentner told me, he got this plant many many years ago. It was a natural collection from the far South of India. And there grows no villosum or exul for sure!


But vice versa that dosn't prove it to be a straight P. druryi!!
Obviously Willi Kentner wasn't the collector and so it has been at least a 1+x hand plant for him and on the other hand you and I know:
-records can get lost
-tags can get mixed off ......and so on.
Don't get me wrong it is a beautiful flower but I doubt it to be straight P. druryi!???


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## paphjoint (May 12, 2010)

Hi,

The plant is definitely not a druryi. A real druryi should look like this 

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16055&highlight=druryi

Unfortunately nurseries will sell plants with fake names - they are making business not botanics.......


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## labskaus (May 12, 2010)

Yeah, I got to hear the same story, that this type was collected some 300 miles north of the normal druryi habitat and that it was an intermediate form with villosum influence. The collected material was said to be obtained by a botanical garden in Eastern Europe and further distributed west-wards through exchange in good old iron curtain times.

Yours is a really nice flower of Winnieanum (and unlikely x winnieanum).


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## fibre (May 12, 2010)

labskaus said:


> Yeah, I got to hear the same story, that this type was collected some 300 miles north of the normal druryi habitat and that it was an intermediate form with villosum influence. The collected material was said to be obtained by a botanical garden in Eastern Europe and further distributed west-wards through exchange in good old iron curtain times.
> 
> Yours is a really nice flower of Winnieanum (and unlikely x winnieanum).



Sorry labskaus, yours is a different story. I've seen plants and flowers of that Eastern Europe stuff and they look quite different! The leafs are curved - not straight, and a little bit 'floppy'. The flowers are much more brownisch and pale with 'color-divided' petals as it is typical for villosum-hybrids. 

Offer: if the plant is established, I will self it by its next flowering. So you all can get a flask and we will see, what is coming out ...


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## valenzino (May 12, 2010)

Very interesting palnt...probably hybrid..... I will also bet x exul....
But can also be an area variant druryi...the difference is in dorsal white margination that is first time I see(but typical exul)cause for the over parts of the flower....there are some around with different forms and colours...ex:
Paphiopedilum druryii 'Marriott Monarch' AM/AOS


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## biothanasis (May 13, 2010)

Very nice!


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## SlipperKing (May 14, 2010)

Hybrid with fake story to sell the plant, IMHO. Is it open all the way at the time of this pic?


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## fibre (May 14, 2010)

SlipperKing said:


> Hybrid with fake story to sell the plant, IMHO. Is it open all the way at the time of this pic?



The seller is really a very serious businessman! 

At the time, the pic is done, the flower was fully opened for about two weeks.


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## paphjoint (May 14, 2010)

please define serious businessman :rollhappy:

You should trust our fellow members - what they see is what it is. 






fibre said:


> The seller is really a very serious businessman!
> 
> At the time, the pic is done, the flower was fully opened for about two weeks.


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## Leo Schordje (May 14, 2010)

This goes to the discussion on another thread. Several issues arise. 
1.) Voucher of the provenance of the plant. I'm certain Fibre is telling us exactly what he was told, so as such, the truth. Reasonably likely Kenntner is telling us exactly what he was told. But was the original infrmation truthful? Maybe.
2.) Without the collection location information, accurate enough to point to a map and say, within a reasonable number of kilometers or miles that this is where it came from, we have to work with reasonable guesses as to the veracity of the 'wild' collected status of the plant. The issue is; does this plant represent a sample of a population that exists in the wild?
3.) Assume that it does indeed represent a valid sample of a particular wild population. Now what do we do with it? The downfall of modern taxonomy is the "Essentialist" approach, in that there is little or no mechanism for dealing with real plants that deviate from the 'Ideal', in this case druyii. Clearly it does not fit druryi in the strict sense. So what is it? and how do we figure out what it is?
4.) ASSUME (and this is not verified) it does represent a natural wild population. Current distribution of species is not necessarily the same as distribution in the past. Say 9,000 years ago, this is recent enough that most of the species then were likely more similar than not to the current modern species. At that time, prior to extensive human deforestation, distributions of species could have been wider. Exul and villosum may have had more outlier populations. As true with druyii. Back then natural hybrids could have been occuring. Later drought and deforestation would then isolate populations and these remnant populations would then be isolated. These interbreeding isolated population would have genes from earlier occasional natural hybrids. The genes would get spread around in the population so that all the plants of the group are more similar to each other than any other population. This IS NOT the same as a natural hybrid in the traditional Linean sense. Gene introgression is the modern synthesis term for it. The problem is we don't have an easy mechanism for naming these populations, in tradition taxonomy. If you had the place name, the best way to label the plant would be Paph druyii of the (insert place name here) population. 

This confusion is the tragic effect of not having collection location information preserved with each specific plant.


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## goldenrose (May 14, 2010)

fibre said:


> ...Offer: if the plant is established, I will self it by its next flowering. So you all can get a flask and we will see, what is coming out ...


Good idea!
I, too, love the flower, but would guess exul x druryi. Any chance we could get a pic of the plant?
Interesting post Leo, you make some very logical/possible points, unfortunately it's not helping fibre.:-(


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## fibre (May 15, 2010)

goldenrose said:


> Interesting post Leo, you make some very logical/possible points, unfortunately it's not helping fibre.:-(



Thank you goldenrose, but I need no help. As I bought this plant, I wasn't looking for a druryi (I have an other one). I took this plant, because of its couriosity. It was in bud and it had a long stem and very small and short leaves. And now, the flower is great, wether it is a druryi or a druryi x something. 

I completely agree with Leo! I will try to verify the information about the collection location etc. next week (if possible). 








Ns of the flower is 6 cm, leafhigh 18 cm, leaves are about 2,6 cm broad. The stem is 24 cm long.


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## fibre (May 15, 2010)

paphjoint said:


> please define serious businessman :rollhappy:
> 
> You should trust our fellow members - what they see is what it is.



Uri, I know Willi Kenntner nearly since I'm into Paphs, and that was about 25 years ago. It isn't quite gentleman like to rollhappy about me, to trust him. 

IMO, best is, what Leo said:


Leo Schordje said:


> Reasonably likely Kenntner is telling us exactly what he was told. But was the original infrmation truthful? Maybe


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## emydura (May 15, 2010)

It certainly has that druryi bolt upright spike habit. You never need to stake a druryi. If it is a hybrid it is the most beautiful druryi hybrid I have seen. The combination of the white dorsal and the yellow is just stunning.

David


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## paphioboy (May 15, 2010)

Nice one..  The plant habit reminds me of exul..


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## goldenrose (May 17, 2010)

Thanks for the pic - what a gem!
Plant habit looks like my exul.


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## paphjoint (May 17, 2010)

Yeah sure 

now if you want to misinterprete my statements go ahead - make your day, I could not care less

Show us a picture of the staminode to begin with - also would like to see other growers here having clones that comes close to yours 

As i said before check out my druryi's pictures I post them every year - this is how a standard druryi should look like -

thank you - and have a good day 







fibre said:


> Uri, I know Willi Kenntner nearly since I'm into Paphs, and that was about 25 years ago. It isn't quite gentleman like to rollhappy about me, to trust him.
> 
> IMO, best is, what Leo said:


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## fibre (May 17, 2010)

goldenrose said:


> Thanks for the pic - what a gem!
> Plant habit looks like my exul.



Yes, there is a lot, that reminds me of exul. 

Today I've sent a pic of flower and plant to Mr. Kenntner. Perhaps he can remember this flower and tell us a more detailed story or even, that tags got mixed off ...


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## emydura (May 17, 2010)

I have both druryi and exul and this plant looks much more like my druryi. In fact it looks nothing like my exul which has very thin rigid leaves.

David


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## fibre (May 18, 2010)

emydura said:


> I have both druryi and exul and this plant looks much more like my druryi. In fact it looks nothing like my exul which has very thin rigid leaves.
> 
> David



Yes I know these exuls. But there is an other form of exul too, with shorter leaves. Here is a picture of such one, not really a good flower for an exul, but an example for one of that type. (Leaves are 18 cm long and 2.5 cm wide)


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## Dido (May 18, 2010)

Still a very lovely looking plant.


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## John Boy (May 18, 2010)

Agreed!!!
I'd have it, and give a real druryi in return for it...!!!
This "short" exul is quite cute too!


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## emydura (May 18, 2010)

fibre said:


> Yes I know these exuls. But there is an other form of exul too, with shorter leaves. Here is a picture of such one, not really a good flower for an exul, but an example for one of that type. (Leaves are 18 cm long and 2.5 cm wide)
> [/IMG]



Thanks. Yes that looks different to mine. My exul is in sheath for the first time so I'm looking forward to seeing how it turns out.

David


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## NYEric (May 18, 2010)

John Boy said:


> This "short" exul is quite cute too!


Yes it would look great x helen or x barbi!


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## fibre (May 19, 2010)

John Boy said:


> Agreed!!!
> I'd have it, and give a real druryi in return for it...!!!
> ...



Sorry John Boy, I'd prefer to keep it!


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## fibre (May 19, 2010)

NYEric said:


> Yes it would look great x helen or x barbi!



I agree, they would be nice little plants. But the shape of the flowers wouldn't be quite flat, because they all hold their petals forward.


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## Fabrice (May 20, 2010)

I don't know what it is but I prefer this one to the standard druryi!
And with gratrixianum maybe, even there's no point on the dorsal?

@Uri: you should be more reserved. You're maybe a great grower but I don't think you're God... oke: 
We know that nature can be more complex than a simple vision of staminode and I like the point of view of Leo.
PS:and you, as you're also a big businessman, can you tell us what's a serious one?


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## Fabrice (May 20, 2010)

On this french forum, there's a plant what could be from the same origin... or not...

http://www.orchidees.fr/forums/index.php?showtopic=56831&hl=gratrixianum


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## paphjoint (May 20, 2010)

Ha fabrice my dear friend - go get lost oke:



Fabrice said:


> I don't know what it is but I prefer this one to the standard druryi!
> And with gratrixianum maybe, even there's no point on the dorsal?
> 
> @Uri: you should be more reserved. You're maybe a great grower but I don't think you're God... oke:
> ...


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## Fabrice (May 20, 2010)

Your interventions in this thread are unpleasant. I say out loud what I think.
It would be the same thing with a new member or with a famous grower.

But maybe do you have an idea for this plant because you tell us it's not druryi (with a wonderful photo of YOUR druryi) but you don't tell what do you think about this flower...?


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## fibre (May 20, 2010)

Fabrice said:


> On this french forum, there's a plant what could be from the same origin... or not...
> 
> http://www.orchidees.fr/forums/index.php?showtopic=56831&hl=gratrixianum



Thank you for this link, Fabrice! It is really *very* similar to mine. The petals of this one are darker at the upper half, maybe an influence of the villosum group? It would be interesting to know, where it is from. 

I don't think, that it is a druryi x gratrixianum. There is a pic of this hybrid on Tanakas site (the last one on the right):

http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/InterOrShow/Guild/en005soukai.html

Ohh, but by looking on this picture, ... maybe it could be ... ?


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## Fabrice (May 21, 2010)

gratrixianum have some different forms so I think it's a possibility.

2 differents gratrixianum:

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12238&highlight=gratrixianum

http://www.orchidees.fr/forums/index.php?showtopic=63467&hl=gratrixianum

And mine:http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/6701/gratrixianumus7.jpg

For the origin of the other plant, I'm waiting for the reply of its grower.


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## emydura (May 21, 2010)

The first one is mine. It is actually in high bud at the moment. I will have to cross it with my druryi although they tend to flower at totally different times.

David


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## Fabrice (May 21, 2010)

@fibre: the plant of the link is the same origin. From Ketnner via Regina Elsner.


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## fibre (May 21, 2010)

Fabrice said:


> @fibre: the plant of the link is the same origin. From Ketnner via Regina Elsner.



Europe is so small ... - especially if you are into Paphs


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## fibre (May 21, 2010)

emydura said:


> The first one is mine. It is actually in high bud at the moment. I will have to cross it with my druryi although they tend to flower at totally different times.
> 
> David



David, your P. gratrixianum 'Geyserland' is fantastic!!! 

It would really be interesting to see it crossed with a druryi.


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## NYEric (May 21, 2010)

Fabrice said:


> On this french forum, there's a plant what could be from the same origin... or not...


yes, that's a very similar bloom. I think if it is druryii it comes from a very distinct population and I've never seen these before as druryii. It is very nice and maybe could even be a new species!! :wink:


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## fibre (Jun 16, 2010)

Here is the result of my correspondence with the former owner of this plant, Willi Kenntner. He told me, that he got this plant from an German grower, who told him, that this plant is wild collected in the late 1970s or early 1980s by someone who is called "Mr. Mammen". Believe it or not ... So we don't know much more about it than before.

W. Kenntner said, he divided this plant at least one time, so the French plant is probably the same clone.


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## John Boy (Jun 16, 2010)

Well, one thing's for sure! You do have a cool plant there. And though I've never heard of the guy, If Willi Kenntner says that sort of thing: that's how got to be the owner of that plant. 

Even if it is (or would be) a Hybrid made in India: It's something very unique!


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## Leo Schordje (Jun 17, 2010)

fibre said:


> Here is the result of my correspondence with the former owner of this plant, Willi Kenntner. He told me, that he got this plant from an German grower, who told him, that this plant is wild collected in the late 1970s or early 1980s by someone who is called "Mr. Mammen". Believe it or not ... So we don't know much more about it than before.
> 
> W. Kenntner said, he divided this plant at least one time, so the French plant is probably the same clone.



I am working from memory, so if somebody has more details, or I am in error, please post the correct info. 

In the late 1960's or early 1970's an avid orchidist by the name of Mammen lead an expedition to re-discover Paph druryii in the wild. By that time Paph druryii was rare in cultivation and most of the then known habitats had been destroyed or depleted by over collection. The 'Mammen Expedition" found and collected Paph druryii, some clones famous in the USA are from that expedition. I believe Paph druryii "The King" AM/AOS is from the Mamman expedition. If this plant, whose image started this thread is really supposed to be from the 'Mammen' expedition, then it in theory would be of the same geographic race or population as Paph druryii "The King". This claim I find rather unlikely. I could accept this plant as a 'collected' plant if it were from a distinctly separate geographic population. So the claim that this plant is from Mr. Mamman, actually makes it more unlikely that the provenance of the plant is true. Something is not correct. Either this plant is an artificial hybrid being passed off as druryii, or if it indeed is a collected from the wild plant, then the tale of it being from the Mamman Expedition is a wild yarn, told to increase the sale price. I am not saying Willi Kenntner is the one who spun the yarn, I am saying somebody told Mr Kenntner a whopper of a story to get him interested in a plant that clearly is not a good fit for druryii. 

The truth is, there is no way to really sort this out. Anecdote is not a good substitute for facts. The phrase "I was told ..." in a provenance is not a solid fact, an old photo from the 1960's showing this plant, or an entry in the Mamman Expedition's accession log would be solid facts. Does anyone here know where the records of the Mamman Expedition were deposited? Perhaps at one of the Indian Universities. The accession log and herbarium specimens could shed some light, any Slipper Talkers visiting India in the near future? It could be an interesting project. 

Enough time has passed between the "collection" of this plant (if indeed it was collected) that it is very likely some of the players involved have passed away. If someone knew where his nursery's records are, or if the notes from the expedition were deposited in a university archive, they might shed some light, but most likely this is not possible. 

I was willing to accept this plant as a representative of a population that exists(or did exist at one time) somewhere in the wild. But I am quite skeptical that this plant was collected by Mamman, particularly the "Mammen Expedition".

And I would like to repeat, I am not accusing any one person of being deliberately untruthful, certainly not Mr Kenntner. I am saying that somewhere in the "chain of custody" of this plant somebody did invent a history for this plant, either willfully or by unintentionally mis-remembering the facts.


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## fibre (Jun 17, 2010)

Leo, I agree with you. That's why I wrote "He told me ... who told him...".

But one is for sure: this plant was divided. One part lives in France and an other on my windowsill! And, as I told befor, I bought it in bud because of it's long stem and short leaves and in addition I got a wonderful flower!


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## Drorchid (Jun 17, 2010)

Interesting info Leo! Thanks, and I totally agree with you. Does anyone know if there are still some populations of Paph. druryii left since the Mammen expedition, or are they totally extinct in the wild?

Robert


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## Leo Schordje (Jun 17, 2010)

definitely enjoy the plant for what it is. It is lovely. And, the mystery as to its 'true' identity may be an enjoyable puzzle to work on as time allows. I have had a few mystery plants over the years, and some I have actually been able to resolve with some certainty. It is a pretty flower, with good habit. And if you divide it and pass it on, pass on the story too, maybe someone else will figure it out in the future.


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## Drorchid (Jun 17, 2010)

Never mind, I answered my own question. Here is a link to a webpage, of someone who took a picture of Paph. druryi in the wild (near Kerala, India) back in 2006, so apparently there are still some pockets of wild Paph. druryi left:

http://enchantingkerala.org/kerala-travelogues/agastyarkoodam-tour.php

Robert


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## NYEric (Jun 17, 2010)

Cool, thanx for sharing Rob.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Jun 17, 2010)

Yes, thanks for sharing that Robert. Sounds like a wonderful place. It gladdens my heart to know that some wild areas yet exist - I forget that living in Japan!


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## fibre (Jun 18, 2010)

Leo Schordje said:


> definitely enjoy the plant for what it is. It is lovely. And, the mystery as to its 'true' identity may be an enjoyable puzzle to work on as time allows. I have had a few mystery plants over the years, and some I have actually been able to resolve with some certainty. It is a pretty flower, with good habit. And if you divide it and pass it on, pass on the story too, maybe someone else will figure it out in the future.



Leo, I will do this for sure!


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## fibre (Jun 21, 2010)

Ohh, have a look there and see, what I have found last Saturday night:










These pictures are from the website of the Swiss Orchid Society with their awards: http://www.orchideen.ch/Bewertung/v03-0309.htm

This afternoon I called the owner Mr. Gunzenhauser. He told me, that his mother got this plant with an import from India in the mid 1970's. But he don't know his name, wether he was a collector or a gardener, or anything else about him. 
The Swiss plant looks very similar to mine, but I think it is different enough to be considered as a separate clone, but I'm even not sure about this...


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## paworsport (Jun 22, 2010)

Hi

look very similar to your druryi ! beautifull plant !


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## paphjoint (Jun 23, 2010)

Interesting thread back from 2007
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11022


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## Kavanaru (Jun 23, 2010)

fibre said:


> Ohh, have a look there and see, what I have found last Saturday night:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Interesting plant... I have never seen it at Gunzenhauser's. I go pretty often to visit him and his amazing collection, and spend long time discussing with him about Paphies (have learned a lot from him! and also have some plants from him too). Need to check for this plant next time...


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## fibre (Mar 19, 2011)

*Update*

Here are new pictures of my mysterious plant. The flowers are open for about three weeks now. I selfed it, so we will see, how the progenies will look like one day.


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## John M (Mar 19, 2011)

My fingers are crossed that you get lots of viable seed!


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## fibre (Mar 20, 2011)

John M said:


> My fingers are crossed that you get lots of viable seed!



Thank you, John! I hope so ...


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## Dawn (Nov 20, 2012)

*regarding beautiful paph debated as druryi*

Hello. This is actually my first post. How is this flower/plant doing now? Have you found out anything else about it? Did you get any seeds that would be seedlings by now? Thank you, Dawn


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## SlipperFan (Nov 20, 2012)

Welcome to Slippertalk, Dawn. Please tell us a little about yourself and your orchids in the Greetings and Salutations section.


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## fibre (Nov 21, 2012)

Welcome to ST! 

This plant isn't doing as well under my conditions as expected. I give it as much light as to my niveum and as I would give to a regular druryi but it seems to like less light. It seems to be very sensitive to too much water and cool conditions in the pot. 

I tried to pollinate it several times (including selfings) but it never took.
Does anyone know a trick to get better success in selfing Paphs?


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## toddybear (Nov 21, 2012)

Gorgeous!


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