# coconut husk chips: good or evil



## TyroneGenade (Jan 29, 2013)

Back in 2006 there was the following reply in response to a question about CHC:



Mahon said:


> Stephan,
> 
> Xavier mentioned something about this too... CHC is sometimes contaminated with Fusarium, which produces hormones that promotes strong root growth. As soon as the hormones run out, the plant will die.
> 
> ...



It is now 2013 and I would like to know if there are still people who feel the same or have most people converted to CHC? I am very curious... I have been asked to prepare a lecture on potting Paphs and have decided to start by researching CHC. Other topics will follow.

I am interested in the following information:
water retention: how frequently do you water?
fertilization: what ferts work well, which don't?
how often do you need to repot?
Pretreatment: Ca(NO3)2 or MgSO4 or both?

Any other info would be appreciate. Oh, and I would like to see photos if you have them.

Thanks


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## wjs2nd (Jan 29, 2013)

I don't use CHC because of preference. Orchiata bark works well with fewer risks of salt build up.

I do have one orchid mount on half a coconut husk and it does very well!


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## dodidoki (Jan 29, 2013)

wjs2nd said:


> I don't use CHC because of preference. Orchiata bark works well with fewer risks of salt build up.
> 
> I do have one orchid mount on half a coconut husk and it does very well!



I do not use, too. I use it before, after beginning good resullts(many new roots) I suddenly lost almost all of my plants. I think it is good as root indicator but after I advice to repot paphs in bark.


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## ehanes7612 (Jan 29, 2013)

after growing in hundreds of plants in CHC..here is my take..i think you get a lot of good roots because CHC soaks up water and provides a humid environment, but not wet because it acts like a sponge. It also allows plenty of air just because of the way bark is striated..my brachys, phrags and parvys love the stuff (i have to water more often for the phrags though)..with that said i think the biggest problem with CHC is its tendency soak up water and not provide enough to the roots..this can be a problem with wet loving multifloral paphs..and even greater problem for adductum/anitum, lowii, and sanderianum/some sandy hybrids..especially once these guys reach a certain age and start soaking up water like its out of style.Another huge issue with CHC has to do with how it breaksdown..it just turns to mush and loses its properties ..it actually can be beneficial (as a sort of compost in the top layer, but acts as a toxic brew in the bottom part of the pot) so if you use CHC its absolutley vital to leave the bottom third with inert material (ie styrofoam). I dont know about hormones (seems far fetched)..but i can agree with CHC having an issue with salt buildup , which seems to me would happen if your mix dries out too much (easy to do with CHC) and you dont fertilize accordingly to your mix. I would discourage use of CHC beyond seedlings that are beyond compot age ( that point when their roots dont like to dry out anymore)..i repotted most of my plants(including seedlings) in bark/perlite last year just for continuity and less watering..will do the rest later as they arent ready to be disturbed yet, but they are brachys/parvys and phrags


with CHC i had to water every two to three days (four to five now with bark), and when i started growing in CHC , i asked a lot of vendors and they said they would never grow in CHC cause they cant water so often

i used ( and still do) a low K (seaweed) with a High N (Fish) fertilizer , every other watering in the summer and once a month in winter (fish fertillizer and seaweed seems more forgiving than the regular salt fertlizers)..i changed to a Low K a few years ago (on Rick's advice) and over a six month period noticed a significant change in leaf viablilty (color and texture) but i still grew in CHC for another 18 months afterwards and still had problems with my adult multi's..so i am hesitant to think CHC has any significant nutrient upload effect (thats just my gut feeling though)

with CHC i had to repot every year,..which is suicide for many plants and probably the biggest reason to give up CHC

I never pretreated but i used Epsom Salts once a month anyway (i never noticed any effect)


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## Rick (Jan 29, 2013)

CHC is not just able to store salts but is an active cation exchanger.

It likes to suck up and hang on to Na/K and give up Ca/Mg

So everytime you ferilize with a high K system it preferentially hangs on to the K (unless you add a disproportionate more Ca).

If you flush with RO it hangs on to the K regardless. You need to flush with a solution containing Ca (and/or Mg) to purge the K out of the CHC and move Ca/Mg back into it. I didn't mention Na since we usually try to avoid water with significant sodium. But for some people using surface waters, this would be a compounding issue.

Actually bark and sphagnum do this too, but not apparently as extreme.

I've moved quite a few orchids back into CHC based mix with very good results since K lite, and TDS monitoring.


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## ehanes7612 (Jan 29, 2013)

Rick said:


> CHC is not just able to store salts but is an active cation exchanger.
> 
> It likes to suck up and hang on to Na/K and give up Ca/Mg
> 
> ...



well, i can accept that but K aside ....i mostly think its evil because of how fast it breaks down and the need to water so often..but it seems beneficial for some species


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## ehanes7612 (Jan 29, 2013)

just read on Fusarium..that's pretty scary..dont recall nay plants having those symptoms though


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## Rick (Jan 29, 2013)

ehanes7612 said:


> well, i can accept that but K aside ....i mostly think its evil because of how fast it breaks down and the need to water so often..but it seems beneficial for some species




I've had it hold up for over 3 years, so not sure about the fast break down thing.


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## ehanes7612 (Jan 29, 2013)

Rick said:


> I've had it hold up for over 3 years, so not sure about the fast break down thing.



i should say i used straight CHC ..with styrofoam bottom..perhaps that's why it broke down so fast (could be a brand thing too, and how big the chunks are)..i do use a little CHC in my current mix but its mostly bark and perlite


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## wjs2nd (Jan 29, 2013)

I've had trouble with my paphs blasting or not developing their buds right.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jan 29, 2013)

For starters, I would not take anything Mahon said seriously. As for CHC, I still use it almost exclusively for my cattleyas, oncidiae, dendrobiums, basically all my epiphytes except for pleurothallids and phals, which hate it. I never used it on phrags...their dislike of it was immediately apparent. (Funny how phrags tolerate anything else, including severely decayed bark, basically turned into peat...) My paphs would like it at first, then decline after about 6 months. It does break down way to quickly in moist situations, even though its original selling point was its long life in a mix. It does last many years with my catts, etc. I gave up on it long before I started with K-lite with my paphs. I'm not about to try it again, though, as I am very happy with orchiata.


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## SlipperFan (Jan 29, 2013)

I've been growing my Phrags in a CHC mix for several years (8 or so) and they seem to be doing quite well. So my experience is very different from Erics. Maybe it's where the chips originate?


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jan 29, 2013)

Perhaps, but it could also be the plants. I don't know how many phrags I tried in CHC, probably only 1, but I have never seen such a fast and negative response to a medium. Within weeks the plant just started to look like crap. So I repotted it into my usual bark/sponge rock/sphagnum mixture and it recovered. Never tried it on a phrag ever again. (No salts...I always triple soaked my CHC, using MgSO4 and CaCO3 in the 2nd soak. The fact that brachy's would do well in CHC, at least the first few months, shows that salt couldn't have been a problem.)


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## paphreek (Jan 30, 2013)

I had very good luck using a CHC mix with charcoal and perlite when I grew in the house, where conditions were relatively stable year round. (30-50% humidity and 60-75F). In the greenhouse, I have better luck with Pinus radiata bark, either Kiwi bark or Orchiata, although I still add a little CHC to the larger grades of bark when potting Paphs. They seem to like those little pockets of extra moisture.


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## TyroneGenade (Jan 30, 2013)

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

To me it seems that CHC can work well if you use K-light fertilizer, water regularly and lighten the mix a bit. For Phrags and multis more water is needed else trouble... The quality of the CHC may also be a factor as some break down fast and others slowly. Do you think bigger chunks make for a longer lasting mix?

For the talk I will need photos... Anyone have a good photo of a well grown plant in CHC they could "lend" me for the presentation? A good photo of root development (before & after) might be nice.


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## Rick (Jan 30, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> Thanks for sharing your experiences.
> 
> To me it seems that CHC can work well if you use K-light fertilizer, water regularly and lighten the mix a bit. For Phrags and multis more water is needed else trouble... The quality of the CHC may also be a factor as some break down fast and others slowly. Do you think bigger chunks make for a longer lasting mix?
> 
> For the talk I will need photos... Anyone have a good photo of a well grown plant in CHC they could "lend" me for the presentation? A good photo of root development (before & after) might be nice.



I'll have to double check what my exul is in. I think its a CHC based mix, but it hasn't been repotted in 3-4 years. 20+ growths and 6 spikes this spring. I've had the plant since 2001, and maybe repotted 3 times.


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## eggshells (Jan 30, 2013)

Chc is the preffered choice of nurseries in the Philippines albeit they use the big chunks (not exactly chips). Also it is the most abundant and cheapest orchid medium there. Orchid bark is very expensive there as they have to import it.


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## Rick (Jan 30, 2013)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> The fact that brachy's would do well in CHC, at least the first few months, shows that salt couldn't have been a problem.)



Most Brachy's come from environments exposed to ocean spray, so they are not generally intolerant of "salt".

That is not to say they are more tolerant to ion imbalances.

Ocean water is very consitent with LOTS of Na Cl followed by magenesium and calcium salts. Magnesium ion is about 3 times that of potassium in sea water.

Potassium is less common in sea water than the other major cations. If you present a condition of potassium as the most common cation to brachies (i.e watered with RO and fertilized with only NPK and no soluble Mg and Ca supplements) they will present as being very salt sensitive due to the gross imbalance of major ions presented to them.


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## katzenhai2 (Jan 30, 2013)

I repotted all my Paphs in 2009 into CHC. I washed them twice overnight in buckets until the water they were in had 250 µS. Bigger chips are stable for a longer time than smaller ones. Some were supplemented with Ca/Mg and others not. Can't decide a difference. But I grow all my Paphs in a greenhouse. CHC can dry out VERY quick if humidity is low (like on a window sill). Many pots standing on living sphagnum moss so they are permanent wet without having a chance of drying out.

The substrate of this P. sanderianum (young plant) is almost decomposed to humus. All sorts of millepedes and other creatures living in there. Never had problems with CHC. All my problems I had with my paphs were sourced otherweise (light, nutrient restriction because of sphagnum moss, Erwinia because of no fans in my greenhouse etc). Never a problem with buds or blooming. I use an NPK fertilizer of 14-8-7-2Mg and water with 500 µS.

In my opinion CHC greatly benefits if it has the chance to decompose to almost humus with his own ecology like bacteria, fungi, little insects etc. If it hasn't the chance to stay wet all the time the ecology can't be established and you need to repot the Paphs every six months IMHO because of the decomposed (and dead) humus!


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## wjs2nd (Jan 30, 2013)

Very healthy looking! Have you had any trouble with root rot?


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## Stone (Jan 30, 2013)

What I've learned about the stuff is:
1) It can vary enormously depending on which country and batch it comes from.
2) It usually has very high levels of K and low levels of Ca, Mg, and S
3) It should be treated before use (if you what to be sure) by soaking in water until it sinks and change water frequently until clear. Its pH is usually high so it should be amended with gypsum and Magnesium sulphate.
Or ageing by wet/dry or leave it out in the weather for a year seems ok too.
4) You must fertilize much less than with bark if you use NH4 as your N source. and you should use less K.
5) As already mentioned use styrofoam at the bottom of the pots.


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## SlipperFan (Jan 30, 2013)

Interesting observation, katzenhai2 -- and welcome to Slippertalk!


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jan 30, 2013)

One point of interest. I use K-lite on all my orchids. While paphs have shown a real improvement, the epiphytes (Cattleyas, Vandas, Dends, Oncidium, etc) that still grow in CHC are not showing any improvement in any way over the usual MSU I had been using. But, they always did well, so this is not to be taken in any negative way. It's just that my CHC growing epiphytes seem to do well whether there is higher K and P or not.


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## Rick (Jan 31, 2013)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> One point of interest. I use K-lite on all my orchids. While paphs have shown a real improvement, the epiphytes (Cattleyas, Vandas, Dends, Oncidium, etc) that still grow in CHC are not showing any improvement in any way over the usual MSU I had been using. But, they always did well, so this is not to be taken in any negative way. It's just that my CHC growing epiphytes seem to do well whether there is higher K and P or not.



Did you repot them after switching to klite?

My mounted epiphytes (especially Phales and Bulbos)have demonstrated significant improvement with Klite too. However I do have a handfull of Catts in pots of straight (old)CHC, and seeing improvements in those has been much slower. I presume the old CHC is already kind of screwed up from the older fert regime, and it may take a long time to clean it up if I only apply weak fert to them.


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## Brabantia (Jan 31, 2013)

@katzenhai 2: are you using the Schwerter 14-7-8 +2 fertilyser? Are you from Germany? What is the ratio nitric nitrogen and ammonium nitrogen ? I can't read these informations on there site.


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## katzenhai2 (Jan 31, 2013)

wjs2nd said:


> Very healthy looking! Have you had any trouble with root rot?


No, never. Only when the CHC dry out too much and roots will die. Then all the "dead" stuff (dead roots, dead humus/CHC) will begin to rot (as will be the same with bark). If it stays wet all the time there are no problems.

I've used this compressed brick (from ebay 3 years ago) but I doubt its any special:






This is my source of info about CHC. They also say you should supplement Ca and Mg because CHC acting as cation exchanger (as Rick stated):
http://www.ladyslipper.com/coco3.htm


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## Rick (Jan 31, 2013)

katzenhai2 said:


> This is my source of info about CHC. They also say you should supplement Ca and Mg because CHC acting as cation exchanger (as Rick stated):
> QUOTE]
> 
> By the way, what is the chemistry of the water you mix your fertilizer in and irrigate with between feedings?


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## katzenhai2 (Jan 31, 2013)

Rick said:


> By the way, what is the chemistry of the water you mix your fertilizer in and irrigate with between feedings?


I use RO water. I add fertilizer to each watering and never "flush" the substrate.

I've read that "flushing", especially with RO water, could be dangerous. See "Fertilizer" on page 7 and "Watering Paphiopedilum" on page 33 in this pdf:
http://eurobodalla.org.au/fileadmin...012/Paphiopedilum_culture_and_propagation.pdf


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## SlipperFan (Jan 31, 2013)

katzenhai2 said:


> No, never. Only when the CHC dry out too much and roots will die. Then all the "dead" stuff (dead roots, dead humus/CHC) will begin to rot (as will be the same with bark). If it stays wet all the time there are no problems.
> 
> I've used this compressed brick (from ebay 3 years ago) but I doubt its any special:
> 
> ...



That looks very similar to the compressed bricks of CHC I use. I think it's different from what one buys in bags because this is very loose and fibrous. Maybe that's the difference between what Eric and I used and why he didn't have success with CHC and we do.


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## Rick (Jan 31, 2013)

I get mine in large compressed bails from Robert's flower supply.

Purportedly its from Sri Lanka, which is supposed to be washed better than the stuff from Mexico.
I never use it straight out of the bag anyway, and wash it a lot first with RO water (until that gets minimum conductivity), which is initially very high.

Then some soaks with my well water with mag sulfate added (for divalent cation exchange).

Then one more RO soak.

I still have more than 3/4 of all my slippers in moss/baskets anyway, but I invested in a big bail of the stuff in the past, so I use it up slowly but surely with different "experiments".


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jan 31, 2013)

OK Dot....now I understand. when I talk about CHC, I'm referring to Coconut husk chips and chunks. The powdered stuff is cocopeat. I have used both. I have had paphs do OK in a 50/50 mix of cocopeat and perlite, but root growth is very minimal. I think I tried a phrag in it once...it hated it even more than CHC chunks. I only use cocopeat on Ludisia and Cymbidiums. The latter seems to really love the stuff. Interestingly, I find orchids handle cocopeat better than non orchid plants.
Rick- since I've been using K-lite for over a year now, some of these plants have been repotted during this time. No change in growth. But, as I said, these plants have always grown well for me.


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## SlipperFan (Feb 1, 2013)

No, definitely not the powdered stuff. The compressed bricks are definitely chips, only more fibrous than the chips I've seen sold in bags.

I did try the cocopeat on some zygos, which did fine for about a year then started to deteriorate. I don't use that anymore.


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## keithrs (Feb 1, 2013)

The "powder stuff" is coir or coco as the hydro guys call it.

I love CHC!:drool:

I also get great roots with it. I added a worm or two to every pot I use CHC in. Worms are great at keeping root rot away and helping to keep the pot aerated as the media breaks down.

On a side note.....Has any one used the "mulching" CHC? I just bought some and it going through its 5th wash as we speak. My next soak will be with Ca/Mg. I picked it up for $8 for 2 CuFt. That's not bad!


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## katzenhai2 (Feb 1, 2013)

[quote="SlipperFan]That looks very similar to the compressed bricks of CHC I use. I think it's different from what one buys in bags because this is very loose and fibrous. Maybe that's the difference between what Eric and I used and why he didn't have success with CHC and we do.[/quote]
Interesting. I only used these bricks and never tried the loose CHC in bags. I remove any fibre from the chips when I'm ready with washing them so only pure chips are left. That is one hour of work to get manually rid of it but its worth IMHO.

I've once tried to let the fibre in the CHC and repotted some paphs but it seemed not so aerated than only chips (although only some single fibre are left in the substrate). The difference is overhelming and the paphs seems not so happy about it. Root rot seemed possible.


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## Cheyenne (Feb 1, 2013)

I bought a piece of chicken wire type screen at the hardware store that has about 1/4 inch squares and mounted it to a wood frame. After I rinse the CHC and let them dry I shake them out on the screen and the fibers fall through and leave the chips.


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## katzenhai2 (Feb 1, 2013)

My CHC looks like that after washing:





After manually remove the fibers the CHC are on the left and the fibers/peat on the right:





Maybe I should try that "chicken wire type screen" or buy a bag with non-compressed chips and have a look for no fibers. Otherwise its lot of work...


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## SlipperFan (Feb 1, 2013)

I'd never do that...


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## Rick (Feb 2, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> Thanks for sharing your experiences.
> 
> 
> For the talk I will need photos... Anyone have a good photo of a well grown plant in CHC they could "lend" me for the presentation? A good photo of root development (before & after) might be nice.



I think this plant is pretty well grown. I've had it since 2001 and its been in some form of CHC mix since probably 2002.









The mix is fairly loose, and I didn't want to take it out of the pot, but I dug away some to show some roots at the top.

This plant hasn't been repotted since May of 2008! I used it in a potting demonstration for our society meeting back then, and looked up the old newsletter. There is a pic of me holding the plant up (roots showing). The pic is not that great, but you can see how much bigger the plant is now compared to then.

Back in 2008 I was still using a lot of oyster shell. I'm sure it was mostly washed out a couple years later. It was considered a pretty nice plant back in 2008, its given me at least 1 bloom every year I've had it. But low K has improved it drastically. I used to loose about every 3rd new growth to Erwinia each year. Maybe in 2005/6 it lost about 1/2 its growths to Erwinia. With low K started 2 years ago the leaf length increased by more than 20%, and haven't had a case of Erwinia since. I still haven't focused on flushing the crap out of this pot. EC was probably >1000 when I first checked it, but with 1 good flush got it down to about 600. I haven't checked it in months.

I can send you the pdf of the newsletter if you like (pm me your email address).


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## cnycharles (Feb 2, 2013)

I tried chc for a while and at first things seemed to be okay, but then would go downhill. .. and I was never a big overfeeder of my orchids or anything like that. the only thing that really liked my mixed chc media was my paph delenatii. and unfortunately I repotted it into the next wave of things and it has declined. I have to unbury my boxes that have potting media in them so that some things can get changed


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## emydura (Feb 2, 2013)

I used it for a while as well, but I found it too inconsistent. Some things did well in it but a lot didn't. I found overall the root growth not to be great. Roots would be initiated and grow for a bit and then suddenly die off. I ended up just going back to bark.


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## katzenhai2 (Feb 2, 2013)

emydura said:


> I used it for a while as well, but I found it too inconsistent. Some things did well in it but a lot didn't. I found overall the root growth not to be great. Roots would be initiated and grow for a bit and then suddenly die off. I ended up just going back to bark.


Have you washed the CHC before using it? What was your source - compressed chips or lose in a bag? How often have you watered the CHC?


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## Ozpaph (Feb 2, 2013)

Some of you might find this interesting. Its about phalies but in the mid part of the slide set is a lot about CHC.
I use the Orchidmate brand and Cultiplex treatment beforehand. I add about 20-30% CHC to my paph mix. I think its a 'salt magnet' so have had better results now I flush with rainwater weekly and cut back the fertilizer (and lower K+)

http://eurobodalla.org.au/fileadmin...d/Perth_2012/4._Graham_McKay_Phalaenopsis.pdf


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## Rick (Feb 2, 2013)

emydura said:


> I used it for a while as well, but I found it too inconsistent. Some things did well in it but a lot didn't. I found overall the root growth not to be great. Roots would be initiated and grow for a bit and then suddenly die off. I ended up just going back to bark.



That's similar to a lot of experiences I've had with select species/groups.

Eric M and I have had similar experiences (until recently I believe due to low K).

With regard to exul, it started out as a multigrowth plant, its a species adapted to getting hit with sea water, and I kept a lot of calcareous junk in the pot. Could be all luck, but in some ways just another high k/low K data point.


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## emydura (Feb 3, 2013)

katzenhai2 said:


> Have you washed the CHC before using it? What was your source - compressed chips or lose in a bag? How often have you watered the CHC?



I use to soak it in water for 12 hours or so over 4 or more days. I never pre-treated it with Ca(NO3)2 or MgSO4 though. I used OrchidMate which is the most commonly used brand here. It comes from Sri Lanka I believe. I was told the importer monitored the CHC's for salt and rejected a shipment on at least one occasion. They were compressed chips. I use to water it every 4 days or so depending on the temperature.


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