# PK culture using ebb and flow



## LostInPeru (Mar 11, 2014)

Has anyone had success from home using the ebb and flow/flood system to grow PK with minimal care?

Between the hydroton/expanded clay and automated water/nutrient delivery I could see the culture of this species being incredibly easy.

Does the ebb and flow system ensure a very high success rate with this plant does anyone know? 

Also I am in Australia and can't seem to locate any for sale here. I see a lot of relatively inexpensive small systems on ebay that look perfect for a home gardener like myself but don't really want to purchase from overseas because all the electronics will be incompatible with our sockets.

Also a lot of the smaller ones seem to have a tray that is too shallow and I was wondering if this matters. Regarding fertilizer is it necessary to use special hydroponic stuff or will the soluble fertilizer you purchase at your local garden center do?


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## NYEric (Mar 11, 2014)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwPnlwtShcQ
You can make your own ebb-flow system pretty easily. I would not use expanded clay alone though.


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## LostInPeru (Mar 11, 2014)

I saw that video from Orchids Limited and it's what made me start thinking about this way of growing them.

But I thought they don't seem to have many PK when you consider how large the seed pods are and all the seedlings they have probably produced which makes me think even with this system you still get a large failure rate. 

I would try other medium but have heard diatomite is bad for your health and want to get away from organic medium that breaks down after a year. I'm lazy and have seen photos of someone growing their PK in hydroton and thought why not as it seems easy.


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## NYEric (Mar 11, 2014)

OL has tons of Pk, as many as anyone in the USA.


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## LostInPeru (Mar 11, 2014)

My idea of Hydroton is it seems to not present the problems seen with mix's that break down and suffocate the plants and or stay too wet and cause root rot.

But so many people seem to have problems with PK that I am thinking why they never thought to try this way of growing them and that their must be more to it than just using this system and that essentially PK seems a nightmare to grow from what I have been reading.

To be honest can't believe I have to go to all this trouble just to grow this plant. Have decided to put PK in the too hard basket. Plus I don't have the desire to wait 6 years or more to see one flower.

When you consider my options for acquiring one, I have to pay all the customs, shipping and three months of quarantine fees on top of the paperwork fees. Makes me think CITES is nothing but a revenue generating tool and is why international governments have embraced the treaty with open arms. The chances are any plants I purchase will be stolen, either from my house or while in the quarantine greenhouse. Plus I don't have the money to purchase the plant, pay all the customs and paper work fees, pay for a ebb and flow system and then mess around trying to source hydroton and the proper fertilizers and nutrients etc.

Sorry for wasting your time but I won't bother pursuing this interest. I think I would have a nervous breakdown if I got one anyway struggling to keep it's conditions perfect. I don't have the patience of a saint required for plants lol. Thanks for talking but I realize this hobby is not for me.


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## NYEric (Mar 11, 2014)

Hahahaha! How many dead plants ago have I said that?! My favorite orchid, Phrag besseae, is one of the ones that I find most difficult, that will never stop me. There are many orchids you can get cheaply and have many happy blooms so don't dismiss the hobby. You chose one of the rarest and most difficult orchids to begin with and haven't even started. You sound like you want to have your dreams handed to you on a plate. It would be nice but where's the challenge and accomplishment in that? Plus, in what life does that happen to anyone?


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## Dido (Mar 11, 2014)

I know experts which fail on PK and dont know why
The same for other kind in Phrag and Paph 
Schlimii for example grows good for me but I did not flower one till now. 
I have some PK hybrids one grows like hell, and made 3 grows in 1,5 years the other I have problems to keep alive. 
I bought 3 flask and received bad quality of this hybrids with PK. 
I was only able to get 2 plants to survive and they grow good, but have not one really root till now, it seems that they live only from my spraying so no idea why. Now I changed medium again. 
At least this changed one gave a new leave to another seedling of PK hybrid I got from a friend. 
So I am doint something wrong for sure, but try to learn and find out what but you see at least is growing like hell for me under the same condition I nearly kill the others.


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## parvi_17 (Mar 11, 2014)

LostInPeru said:


> My idea of Hydroton is it seems to not present the problems seen with mix's that break down and suffocate the plants and or stay too wet and cause root rot.
> 
> But so many people seem to have problems with PK that I am thinking why they never thought to try this way of growing them and that their must be more to it than just using this system and that essentially PK seems a nightmare to grow from what I have been reading.
> 
> ...



I hope I don't sound too rude in saying this, but honestly I have read a bunch of your posts and you have said this like three times before, only to be gung-ho about it again the next day. It's bizarre. Just buy some easy and cheap Phrag hybrids and experiment with them, if you don't want to risk killing an expensive plant. Phrag kovachii will only get cheaper and more available in the future - you don't need to rush to get one now when you have no experience. That said, if you really want to, do it, but your complaining about how hard it is to grow is getting old. I always say, nothing that is easy is worth doing. The challenge is half of the allure of growing these plants for most of us. You're contemplating giving up before you have even started - how much sense does that make? We all started somewhere, and it wasn't growing Phrag kovachii.


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## Stone (Mar 11, 2014)

LostInPeru said:


> > Has anyone had success from home using the ebb and flow/flood system to grow PK with minimal care?
> 
> 
> 
> I have a friend using this method and it works well although it's not necessary. If you keep it in a saucer of water with frequent changes or just water a lot it will grow fine. ( assuming all other factors are right)


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## Ray (Mar 12, 2014)

Eric: Why would you not use LECA?

Mike: I think an advantage of an active system is the fact that the medium never dries at all - no drying mean no mineral or waste buildup, so the root zone is more "pristine" and constantly low in EC. Of course, sharing a nutrient bath is a great way to share pathogens.


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## LostInPeru (Mar 12, 2014)

I always thought the organic media was the reason why the first PK growers had so much trouble because it made their mix acidic which PK doesn't like whereas the expanded clay is neutral and this problem never arises with it. But I am just a newbie who has never grown an orchid so what would I know.

This person seems to be growing a PK seedling happily with no problems in expanded clay/ hydroton.

http://www.neovita.com/orkideer/no.cgi?gem=visaNyckelord&nyckelord=phragmipedium kovachii

Process through google translate for english version.

Although I never realized what I was getting into with orchid people until I read the book by Pittman and think it's best no to get involved in this world.

It seems people will stop at nothing to acquire this plant, and hearing some of the lows people will go to at orchid shows stealing this plants blooms for pollen and even up to recent times selling for thousands of dollars just doesn't attract me at all to this hobby. 

I was toying with the idea of how easy it would be to purchase a legal plant with all proper papers of flowering size which is most probably been yanked from the jungle to satisfy the demand for mature plants. But I can't justify purchasing a plant that I know had otherwise been sitting in a rainforest for probably 10-20 years. 

CITES and INRENA have no legitimacy in my eyes, as they are both compromised by corruption and shady back room deals and I would only be supporting them by acquiring a plant as I see all PK stock integrity as being compromised due to the nature of the Peru government and others to be unreliable when it comes to being truthful and am under no illusions about this. 

Plus this is just another parasocial relationship I don't need.


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## gonewild (Mar 12, 2014)

LostInPeru said:


> whereas the expanded clay is neutral and this problem never arises with it.
> 
> Expanded clay is not pH neutral.
> 
> ...


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## Ray (Mar 12, 2014)

gonewild said:


> LostInPeru said:
> 
> 
> > Expanded clay is not pH neutral.
> ...


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## gonewild (Mar 12, 2014)

Ray said:


> gonewild said:
> 
> 
> > What makes you sat that, Lance?
> ...


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## NYEric (Mar 12, 2014)

LOL!
I would not use straight leca in anything. I saw salt build up when I tried it and I almost never add fertilizer to the RO water I use.


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## Ray (Mar 12, 2014)

gonewild said:


> Ray said:
> 
> 
> > Is pH 5.6 neutral?
> ...


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## Ray (Mar 12, 2014)

gonewild said:


> Is pH 5.6 neutral?




No, but that's the equilibrium pH of pure water with CO2 in the air. The fact that it did not change in a year suggests "pretty inert" to me. 


Ray Barkalow (via Tapatalk)


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## gonewild (Mar 12, 2014)

Ray said:


> No, but that's the equilibrium pH of pure water with CO2 in the air. The fact that it did not change in a year suggests "pretty inert" to me.
> Ray Barkalow (via Tapatalk)



It suggests "inert" but not pH "neutral". When media is refereed to as neutral I think pH7 or near to it. If I am incorrect please correct me.

I did extensive tests when you switched to the new primeAgra and it definitely caused pH swings towards acidic where the old form did not.
I have a current catalog that lists an expanded clay product "Arcitek" and they list the pH as 9.0-10.0 at 25c.
At the very least there is a great variability between expanded clay products so that is why I say they are not pH neutral.


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## Ray (Mar 13, 2014)

I see your point, Lance. It just seemed to me that if the water pH did not change, it indicated there was nothing coming from the LECA to change it, suggesting "neutral", since H2CO3 is a very weak acid that can be very easily overwhelmed, and does little to buffer the water. I could be wrong.

I have some "pH Pencils" - you make a mark on something solid and then wet it, and it's supposed to tell you the surface pH of the material.

I think there may be some value in testing a variety of substrates.

Now if I can only find some time...


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## jtrmd (Mar 13, 2014)

I think if I give this one a try again. I am going to use straight diatomite and sit the pot in a saucer of water.


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## Silvan (Mar 13, 2014)

jtrmd said:


> I think if I give this one a try again. I am going to use straight diatomite and sit the pot in a saucer of water.



If you do that, you'll have to water your plant every day. I really don't 
know why people want to grow a kovachii using a media
they're not familiar with, ...

Anyway, Good luck finding diatomite rocks


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## NYEric (Mar 13, 2014)

He has a hidden stash!!


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## jtrmd (Mar 13, 2014)

Silvan said:


> If you do that, you'll have to water your plant every day. I really don't
> know why people want to grow a kovachii using a media
> they're not familiar with, ...
> 
> Anyway, Good luck finding diatomite rocks



I have a huge 25# bag of them and add it to my besseae mix. The Phrags get watered pretty much everyday now, unless its been cloudy for a few days and their mix isnt drying out.


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## jtrmd (Mar 13, 2014)

NYEric said:


> He has a hidden stash!!



How did you know? It was free too hahahaha! I think Eric has been peeking his head into my potting mix stash.lol!


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## NYEric (Mar 13, 2014)

Right now, I'm looking as far as Florida for medium size diatomite.


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## cnycharles (Mar 14, 2014)

I saw diatomite at the NJOS show; was it too small?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Clark (Mar 14, 2014)

NYEric said:


> Right now, I'm looking as far as Florida for medium size diatomite.



What is it worth to you?


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## jtrmd (Mar 14, 2014)

Clark said:


> What is it worth to you?



HAHAHA!

I saw it at the Maryland Show, but cant remember who was selling it. I remember seeing it on the Repotme website some time back.


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## gnathaniel (Mar 14, 2014)

Is stalite (expanded shale/slate) sufficiently similar to diatomite? I got a 65# bag of Sunleaves brand 'Rocks' (available in two size ranges, 0.25-0.5" and 0.5-1.5") for a little over $20 at a hydroponics store. Some concrete-supply places sell stalite, and garden centers sometimes carry it under the names haydite or Perma-Till.


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## LostInPeru (Mar 14, 2014)

parvi_17 said:


> I hope I don't sound too rude in saying this, but honestly I have read a bunch of your posts and you have said this like three times before, only to be gung-ho about it again the next day. It's bizarre. Just buy some easy and cheap Phrag hybrids and experiment with them, if you don't want to risk killing an expensive plant. Phrag kovachii will only get cheaper and more available in the future - you don't need to rush to get one now when you have no experience. That said, if you really want to, do it, but your complaining about how hard it is to grow is getting old. I always say, nothing that is easy is worth doing. The challenge is half of the allure of growing these plants for most of us. You're contemplating giving up before you have even started - how much sense does that make? We all started somewhere, and it wasn't growing Phrag kovachii.



ha ha what I find bizarre is that to purchase a PK from a supposedly legit source I have to fork out a whopping great amount to fill the minimum order requirements, not to mention all the extra fees and charges associated with the CITES and Photosanitary paperwork, shipping, customs inspection and fumigation fees, three months of quarantine fees to pay someone to watch it grow for three months in their greenhouse, import permit fees and their are probably more hidden fees and charges I am unaware of. I thought by getting into orchids they would be cheaper than my old hobby which revolved around expensive collectable robots which are by far rarer and more valuable than any PK, yet ironically are cheaper than PK. I can't figure it out.

So if I chop and change my mind I have a pretty good reason. I also find it outrageous that the amount I am being asked to pay for plants is to my mind disproportionate to their real value. It is just insanity. 

Regarding their culture it seems pretty much to be a no brainer. Just grow them in a material that won't cause root rot or acidic ph levels. Don't let them get too much indirect sunlight. And use an ebb and flow to keep them constantly wet without any worries about over watering or under watering. 

Your tired of hearing about my complaining about how hard PK is to grow, and I am tired of everyone telling me not to start with PK. Your comments don't make any sense.

As for growing other types of orchid I don't understand why you would think I would waste hard earned cash on common run of the mill stuff when I can have the holy grail of the hobby. It just doesn't make any sense. Won't bother this place again.


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## NYEric (Mar 15, 2014)

Thanks.


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## Ray (Mar 15, 2014)

gnathaniel said:


> Is stalite (expanded shale/slate) sufficiently similar to diatomite? I got a 65# bag of Sunleaves brand 'Rocks' (available in two size ranges, 0.25-0.5" and 0.5-1.5") for a little over $20 at a hydroponics store. Some concrete-supply places sell stalite, and garden centers sometimes carry it under the names haydite or Perma-Till.



That depends upon what properties you're referring to with "sufficiently similar".

Diatomite's microstructure is one of tiny little gaps within the dense network of diatom "skeletons". Think of it as an ultra-fine textured sponge. They absorb really well, but it is difficult to get water and minerals back out of the central part of the particles.

Shale has a flat, layered structure that has water molecules bridging and bonding the layers. Once heated up so that water is driven off, the layers separate, providing space to absorb water (just like a related mineral, vermiculite). It won't hold nearly as much water as diatomite, but isn't likely to build up minerals and wastes as quickly, either.


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## Erythrone (Mar 15, 2014)

LostInPeru said:


> Your tired of hearing about my complaining about how hard PK is to grow, and I am tired of everyone telling me not to start with PK. Your comments don't make any sense.



:sob::sob:


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## parvi_17 (Mar 15, 2014)

LostInPeru said:


> Won't bother this place again.



Since I'm pretty sure you will be back to read this, I will attempt to educate you a bit...



LostInPeru said:


> ha ha what I find bizarre is that to purchase a PK from a supposedly legit source I have to fork out a whopping great amount to fill the minimum order requirements, not to mention all the extra fees and charges associated with the CITES and Photosanitary paperwork, shipping, customs inspection and fumigation fees, three months of quarantine fees to pay someone to watch it grow for three months in their greenhouse, import permit fees and their are probably more hidden fees and charges I am unaware of. I thought by getting into orchids they would be cheaper than my old hobby which revolved around expensive collectable robots which are by far rarer and more valuable than any PK, yet ironically are cheaper than PK. I can't figure it out.



When you are attempting to buy a CITES listed species and have it shipped across international borders, this is what you have to deal with. And since all orchids are listed on CITES, it's what we all have to deal with as orchid growers if we want to trade internationally. If you are really passionate about orchids, as all of us here are, you either suck it up or just buy domestically. But it doesn't sound like you are really interested in orchids, other than this one plant. So I don't know what to say.



LostInPeru said:


> So if I chop and change my mind I have a pretty good reason. I also find it outrageous that the amount I am being asked to pay for plants is to my mind disproportionate to their real value. It is just insanity.



The "real value" of anything, whether it be your robots or Phrag kovachii, is determined by two things: supply and demand. Phrag kovachii has high demand and low supply, therefore it commands high prices. There are also many people who are willing to pay those prices. Thus the price you are being asked to pay is in fact its true value. If vendors have been curt or brief with you, as you seem to have indicated before, it's because they aren't going to waste their time on someone who isn't serious about buying one of these expensive plants. There are lots of people who are.



LostInPeru said:


> Regarding their culture it seems pretty much to be a no brainer. Just grow them in a material that won't cause root rot or acidic ph levels. Don't let them get too much indirect sunlight. And use an ebb and flow to keep them constantly wet without any worries about over watering or under watering.



Their culture is still in the "experimentation" stage, as it still isn't a widely owned species. The method you are referring to is one experiment that has worked for one major grower. One thing you learn with orchid growing is something that works for one person may not work for you. Everyone's conditions are different. This isn't the way I would personally grow this plant, because I wouldn't want to give up the money and space to set up the system for it. But I find this topic interesting because I can take elements of this method and adapt them to my own culture. That's what orchid growing is all about.



LostInPeru said:


> Your tired of hearing about my complaining about how hard PK is to grow, and I am tired of everyone telling me not to start with PK. Your comments don't make any sense.



I'm sorry to have offended you. But honestly, all anyone is trying to do is 1. save you money and heartbreak and 2. save a rare plant which could otherwise fall into the hands of an experienced hobbyist from almost certain death, particularly if you were to start with a small seedling. I'm sorry if that's insulting to hear, I'm just being frank with you. It's like giving me an endangered species of fish or something to look after. I could read up on it all I wanted and do the best I could, but without the experience of looking after other fish that someone else might have, I would have a very high chance of killing it.



LostInPeru said:


> As for growing other types of orchid I don't understand why you would think I would waste hard earned cash on common run of the mill stuff when I can have the holy grail of the hobby. It just doesn't make any sense. Won't bother this place again.



What I don't understand is why or how you would turn your nose up at other orchids, which are very similar to this species, yet be so obsessed with this one. That is what doesn't make any sense. I think maybe orchids aren't for you then?

Anyway, the topic you brought up here is interesting, and I look forward to seeing the conversation with some of our more experienced growers on the forum continue.


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## mormodes (Mar 15, 2014)

parvi_17 said:


> I look forward to seeing the conversation with some of our more experienced growers on the forum continue.



A friend of mine spent some effort on an ebb and flow system similar to the one mentioned in this thread. It didn't work for him. I'm not sure why or how he grows his phrags now. Despite my neglect I still have a very small pk seedling surviving in straight fine orchiata in a semi-hydro pot made from a plastic cup IIRC. Leaf span probably 3" tip to tip, *G*! From a flask from Decker I got years ago. Its been in that cup/bark for 2+ years. It has made the rounds of the GH's microclimates, most of which are varieties of intermediate. Ditto the amount of light, mostly cattleya-like. I guess this makes me the ranking champion of pk abuse. I'd post a pic but you'd all lose your lunches.


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## gonewild (Mar 15, 2014)

I grew pk with 4" pots standing in about 1 inch of moving water. I had set up the system to work as ebb and flow but it proved to be too tedious on a small scale (about 130 plants). So I just watered them everyday overhead but still maintained the standing water. The plants grew great, fast and I had zero mortality. But a problem arose in that the pk roots loved to grow out into the water. When I needed to move the pots they had roots 8 or 10" long growing out of the drainage holes. It was impossible to move the plants or repot without breaking the brittle roots. The pk did not like having their roots damaged and after the disturbance they stopped growing for about 6 months.
They did recover and grew normally to blooming size with pots not standing in water but still watered everyday.

So I see a potential problem for ebb and flow unless it is carefully maintained. Of maybe during the "ebb" the pots are not standing in water to discourage the adventurous roots. But then it is not a good idea to ever discourage roots!


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## chrismende (Mar 15, 2014)

I'm growing PK seedlings and their hybrids in ebb and flood very successfully. They are planted in regular Orchiata and Growstone (expanded glass the works similarly to perlite without the breakdown issue). I flood them twice a day for 15 to 30 minutes in warm seasons and once a day in winter, even stopping the floods in extremely humid periods. They grow very well. My water is RO, augmented with a fertilizer designed like MSU for RO water.


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## gonewild (Mar 15, 2014)

What is the difference between flooding the plants twice per day using e&f or just watering twice per day?


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## chrismende (Mar 15, 2014)

Not much, probably, though flooding avoids the crown rot of watering from above and simulates the seepage process best. They do stay wet. No rot problems.


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