# Orchid Police?



## heliomum (Mar 16, 2008)

I read _Orchid Fever_ which mentioned the orchid police. What are they? Are they like CITES agents? Are they run by the government? Do they even do anything anymore? And are they really as sinister as the book says? Do they really have files on people and watch people? From what the book says they sound like the CIA.


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## practicallyostensible (Mar 16, 2008)

You mean they-who-shall-not-mentioned? jk


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## heliomum (Mar 16, 2008)

Huh?


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## Candace (Mar 16, 2008)

I've heard they pose as newbies on forums and try to get you to say something incriminating.:rollhappy:


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## heliomum (Mar 16, 2008)

What's that supposed to mean?


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## heliomum (Mar 16, 2008)

Well if everyone's this reluctant I kind of have my question answered.


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## heliomum (Mar 16, 2008)

Ok, I 'm not the orchid police. I was just curious what they were. And I can tell that apparently they are very scary if no one is answering this. So OK you don't have to answer this I was just curious.


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## Roth (Mar 16, 2008)

It's just a thinking that concept of "plant police". Actually, people are working for many different fields, plants, animals, wood... and some choose, with more or less happiness and skill, orchids, pandas, tiger penis as an investigation field. I have been a customs expert and teacher for many years actually, and I had to train customs people from many different countries, discuss with them...

Basically, the main problem is that they are poorly trained, those who have the knowledge are on the "other side" of the border for most of them.

Many will use CITES Guide to identification of orchids and this kind of crap, there was a guide by the University of Leiden about identification of paphiopedilum by the leaves, and identification of wild plants, the sources, conservation status. This guide is extremely rare, and I may well be one of the few individuals to have been presented a copy of it, about 50 pages.

What can be sorted out from that guide is that it has been made by "botanists". I have nothing against taxonomists or botanists, except that nearly all of them are exceedingly unknowledgeable about "real world of orchids". The variations within a species, how a precultivated wild plant looks like, the concept of "colonies", all of that is out of their mind, completely. And they are pretty sure that their dried herbarium specimens, and couple of plants in the "living collection" are matching the reality. 

You end up with paph wardii has boldly tesselated leaves ( wrong, half of the wild plants have plain green leaves, no mottling), paph sanderianum is a 40 cm leafspan plant maximum, extremely rare and unlikely to be seen in numbers as wild plants (meaning, if there are 500 sanderianum with not too rough leaves, they cannot be from the wild!), and there are many, many mistakes. I have been working on a revised version of the guide, only to realize that if you do not grow orchids, as an enforcement officer, you are unlikely to understand the subtle differences between a plant of helenae and the dwarf coccineum, or between a paph lawrenceanum from the wild and a maudiae hybrid. And if you do, most likely, you have to be in contact with people from the "other side of the border", not good for your career...

In many of the highly publicized instances I can think of right now, whether Kovach, Azadehdel, Boscha Popow, regardless of the fact they had really illegal plants or not, those cases appeared only because they have been either careless or could be competitor later. Some people got a supply ( from Boscha Popow as an example, at a time the paphs were Appendix II, not I) of Chinese paphiopedilum, several hundreds plants of each species, and thereafter contacted the authorities to "blank" their stocks by giving their supplier. That was a matter of jealousy, unwillingness to have a competitor ( some small player take a stock like that and want to destroy their supplier, first knowing that their supplier will always have stock and sell to everyone, and second to destroy the competitors and have a monopoly), and they will push individuals officers. Of course, what they inform might be illegal (like the people who informed the Customs aboutSian Lim in England as well), BUT the main fact is that those informants first have a financial reward, second are not disturbed when selling their stock, third have a temporary monopoly, fourth increase the value of their investment. That's it and that's all.

Based on my experience with enforcement officers, most of them are humans and comprehensive. A hobbyist with some illegal plants will not have any problems. First, those officers understand that it's peanuts, second, that a hobbyist with few plants is not doing that for any kind of business. Same for the breeding stock of companies that do really make propagation. Remember that all the sands from Azadehdel have been recorded as illegal by the US Customs, but they choose to leave all those plants in the hands of their owner, because they were doing breeding and propagation ( sand Deep Pockets, Jacob's Ladder are such plants). On the other side, a shipment of wild sanderianum to Hawaii of 400 plants has been seized and prosecuted. That's a completely different matter, former was for artificial propagation, latter was just for buy and sell business.

The most dangerous people are few people who blatantly lie about the rarity of paphs. NO! Paphs are/were not rare in the wild. Paphiopedilum armeniacum is "on the verge of extinction" for the last 20 years according to some people. So where are those thousands of wild plants coming each year from ???

Paph. rothschildianum is extremely abundant in the wild, it is easy to find a collector to take 2000 plants in a week or so. I visited such places in Sabah, with few hundreds CLUMPS of roths, freshly collected. And so on for most species. Paph zieckianum is very common in the Arfak Mountains, hundreds of thousands of plants. Wentworthianum is common in Guadalcanal. I got a picture from a guy who advertised on the orchidmall for that species, he had some thousands plants freshly collected.

The real truth is that some people made alarming reports, that led to 2 disastrous consequences:

- Nearly no one trust that paphs are rare in the wild anymore.
- The prices are higher, so there is more demand
- There is no way to enforce CITES at present time correctly
- Huge stock are collected, for pot plant, and because some crazy people think that, being in demand, there is a lot of customers.

Result: sooner or later some species will really disappeared. Some start to, and not the ones we are thinking of. Paph. coccineum, Paph.hookerae, Paph. celebense are nearly extinct now. But not at all sanderianum, roth, micranthum, or armeniacum that are still plentiful.

People should not dream. Every single paph breeder in the world has "illegal" plants or plants of doubtful source. Some wil breed them, some will simply sell them. But the authorities know perfectly well that there are illegal plants around. They do not bother at all if those facts are not "public", and if those plants are well cared for, and used for breeding. Of course, there could be a couple individuals officers that are completely crazy, and potentially very dangerous, but they are very, very rare... 

I met only 1 out of several hundreds. He did two things, first went to a garden center and seize all the paphiopedilum ( they are appendix I, right?), ask for the import CITES ( Pinnochio plants and the like from Holland, so no CITES), screw the director of the garden center ( 2 days in jail for investigation), and being screwed by his chief for doing that... He was moved to another job, control at an airport. Second time, 2 Paph delenatii in the suitcase of a passenger ( usually the customs never bother with something like that), he arrested the passenger, fined him some thousands euros, and sent him in preventive jail. That time he was fired of his job quickly...


One last thing, about the files, every single letter received by the customs has to be stamped, stored, and the facts in it recorded. Every informant declaration has to be recorded as well. Therefore some people have "huge files" at the customs of their country, that's completely true. No one can believe how many letters from informants per day the customs can receive. Now, whether they investigate or just store it because they are forced to store the information is another matter.

As a general basis, I would say that if the hobbyists do not do things that are too obvious, and NO, REALLY NO business ( selling a couple divisions or otherwise is perfectly fine, but not 20 plants of helenae as an example), the risks are virtually nonexistent. Think about all those illegal plants sold on ebay.com USA, how many buyers got problems ? I think none...


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## rdlsreno (Mar 16, 2008)

Wow that is cool!


Ramon


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## NYEric (Mar 17, 2008)

The CITES police are like the revinue agents of the prohibition. The zeal with which they pursue infractions varies between the individual agent. I was told by one vendor that the regulating people had hired a known criminal to break into his nursery to allow them to look for illegal plants. yes lots of hobbyist have non-legal plants though and unless your flaunting it out loud you shouldn't be bothered by the authorities.


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## likespaphs (Mar 17, 2008)

i'm not entirely sure, but here in the u.s., i think that the department of fish and wildlife are those who regulate it here.


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## NYEric (Mar 17, 2008)

Yes, orchid experts all!


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## NYEric (Mar 17, 2008)

rdlsreno said:


> Wow that is cool!
> Ramon


BTW, you're on the list now buddy! oke:


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## smartie2000 (Mar 17, 2008)

the police are free to look at our collections but they will have a hard time finding out what is non-legal. They don't have a clue what we are growing and what to point out in our collection. I am finding this is nonsense nowadays (or at least in Canada), otherwise we would be hearing more recent stories. "Orchid Smuggler" does make a good news report, if the enforcement officers are acute enough to catch them. I keep all my reciepts if they want to look at them.

The one story in Canada I read was a break into air cargo boxes stuffed with wild collected paphs, and that story was made in 2000 I think. It was a shipment to a good nursery too though I have not purchased from them yet. Lol the police had to bloom the plants at a conservatory before they could make a charge, b/c they couldn't ID them. Come on they were micranthums, bellatums, etc.

Where they do sieze plants is during the shipments at customs. 

Also sometimes you can't buy a blooming sized paph species and know 100% it was not collected. Nurseries (even reputable ones) can grow it a little and it will look as healthy as their own, and some are collected very healthy looking as shown before.

Police should probably be more concerned about ppl growing weed. I wonder if anyone got checked for that yet.

Hey someone in USA posts his blooming hangianums on another forum. He did share pollen and hangianum are around. Now can the police point him out for me or are they even trying?...

I think to the grower it is more important to be ethical. Buy what you feel is ethical to have.

If police ever try to break into my house in the vicious way they did in 'Orchid Fever' They will be invading my human rights and I will take action.


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## NYEric (Mar 17, 2008)

The problem is mostly in US because CITES enforcers interpretation of Vietnam's statement that no Cat I plants were legally released! All those plants are legal in Canada! One problem is that some plants were released before they were moved to CITES Cat. I and most people didn't keep receipts.


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## Roth (Mar 17, 2008)

NYEric said:


> The problem is mostly in US because CITES enforcers interpretation of Vietnam's statement that no Cat I plants were legally released! All those plants are legal in Canada! One problem is that some plants were released before they were moved to CITES Cat. I and most people didn't keep receipts.



For the Vietnamese paphs, it is actually half true. Vietnam governement has a 2 step system for export of orchids.

- Buying 200 hangianum in the streets is legal.
- There are a lot of licences to get for export, not only a phyto or whatever, but permit to export, permit to make business with a foreign company for wildlife, etc...

Furthermore, there are offices that issued export phytosanitary certificates for all the paphs species from Viet Nam, but the Vietnamese governement reclaimed those permits, on the basis that the office was not allowed to issue them. Same story in China actually.

No one completed it fully actually.

About the plants that were released before they were moved to CITES App I, it is true and wrong. when the paphs have been upgraded to App I, there was a 1 year (or 2 years???) timeframe where the commercial growers and the hobbyists could declare their plants to the authorities. Most Orchid societies, at least in Europe, did not inform their members. Only some commercial growers did it, and hide it, because they knew that it would be a valuable asset for the future. That was not fair...

On the plants that were imported before Cites App I, I am pretty sure there are not that many alive in the trade ( I do not speak about private or breeder collection).

And from the new species of paphs, apart from anitum that existed for years ( I remember AnTec had a picture of a beautiful anitum over 10-15 years ago!), the hangianum helenae tranlienianum etc... were unknown in cultivation when the paphs were upgraded to app I.



smartie2000 said:


> the police are free to look at our collections but they will have a hard time finding out what is non-legal. They don't have a clue what we are growing and what to point out in our collection.
> 
> Lol the police had to bloom the plants at a conservatory before they could make a charge, b/c they couldn't ID them. Come on they were micranthums, bellatums, etc.
> 
> ...



Some people from the customs are higly knowledgeable, I know about 10, and I trained several. But they will be highly discriminating, because they all understand the problem. Never touch the hobbyists, never touch the breeding stocks... and they can tell apart some groups of species easily.

About the bellatulum and micranthum, it is not laugheable. I have to explain from the inside how an expertise arise, so everyone will understand. It happened to me twice that the plants had to be bloomed to confirm ( delenatii !).

The plants are seized and it is found that they are partially precultivated. The expert makes a report that those are plants from the wild, precultivated. Fine...

Now the owner of the plants will claim that they are poorly grown pot-plant hybrids ( like in the Canada story). The case will be brought in front of a court, where the judge have NO CLUE about what people will be talking about. So, to avoid any risks, the only way is to wait until some plants bloom. Then the court gets a report:

- Plants are orchid species of that type ( picture attached), precultivated because the roots are this and that, and the leaves have damage.

Otherwise, maybe the owner will scream and complain that those plants are pot plant hybrids, the judge will be fed up, and will not do anything...




NYEric said:


> I was told by one vendor that the regulating people had hired a known criminal to break into his nursery to allow them to look for illegal plants. yes lots of hobbyist have non-legal plants though and unless your flaunting it out loud you shouldn't be bothered by the authorities.



I have been a customs expert and conciliator for over 10 years now, so I had a lot of cases, and have been asked by quite a lot of people from the "plant police". In many instances, I will have to shut up forever, but the evidences, the papers, and the tape records did NOT match at all what has been publicly said by those growers. Actually it never does. I can give 2 examples, because I happened to know the truth throught the enforcement agency on one side, and by myself on the other side, so I do not break any secret.

First, there has been this story of the poor guy that imported Paph sanderianum through Hawaii, 500 plants. Those were nursery raised and bred, etc... so those bastards of the "plant police" broke an honnest businessman. The truth is that he hired himself collectors in Sarawak, then paid a nursery to get CITES. There were gigantifolium that another man from Indonesia brought to Sarawak to put in the shipment, along with a CITES of course. All those plants were freshly wild collected, period.

Second, an "old" nusery that dealt in paphiopedilum from the Philippines. The owner was screaming like hell to whoever wanted to listen to him that those were "legacy vinage plants". Good proof: their nursery was sooooo old. Truth: he ordered 6000 plants from the Philippines few months before the customs seized them in his greenhouse. I have heard ( but of course I do not know if it is true or not ) that he signed to the customs a paper acknowledging that he imported illegally all those plants, and was willing to pay a fine to stop the court case. Still, he comes around exhibitions and complains about the bastards of the customs that seized their vintage paphs...

No one must believe those people when they speak about their misery with the customs. No one is in the office when the same people have to explain what they did exactly. 

One more point, many professionnal growers have a lot of awful stories that hobbyists got a "CITES Plant Police Raid" and got 2-3 plants seized; police in his home. I can say, on official behalf that it is FAKE. All the plants seized are reported to CITES Office in Geneva first, and I know that, apart from some express parcels seized with 30 plants ( and just a small fine, or no fine, paid by the receiver), all the "raids" concerned people that had first a lot of plants, second were dealing in those plants.

Why so awful stories ? It's easy. It raises the price, and makes the customers more willing to pay more, and in cash ( no invoice). Byebye the taxes ( in some countries, they can be pretty hefty !). All thoses stories are really, really fake ones.

I know of a couple stories where "hobbyists" got actually a "plant raid" in their greenhouses, but many professionnal growers use hobbyists to store the dirty collected plants, therefore the "hobbyists" are not exactly "hobbyists", but partners of a commercial business ( and get cash money out of that). Same for some others "hobbyists" that were doing a lot of business underground. The real hobbyists never had any single problem so far.


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## Gcroz (Mar 18, 2008)

A lot of great info in this post! It has been my understanding, as previously stated, that it is largely up to the individual officers. Ever had an ******* cop stop you for something minor and treat you like you were "Jack the Ripper" himself, meanwhile the last cop you met was a nice guy?

I currently have a CITES issue and decided the best course was a good offense. I've hired a lawyer and they are working with USDA/USFW to resolve the issue. The long and short of it is that, as my lwyer said, very few people approach the agencies for help in resolving the issues because they are scared. This keeps them in a state of clandestine illegal activity, which doesn't look good to authorities. 

I'm sure I'll post what the end result of all this is, if anyone is inteested.


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## NYEric (Mar 18, 2008)

Sanderianum said:


> In many instances, I will have to shut up forever, but the evidences, the papers, and the tape records did NOT match at all what has been publicly said by those growers. Actually it never does.
> 
> No one must believe those people when they speak about their misery with the customs. No one is in the office when the same people have to explain what they did exactly.


Very informative as usual. However in my info. the issue was told to me by a commercial grower and I do not believe any of his plants ended up being seized. Just in the wrong place at the wrong time I guess. The problem is that too many people operate on different levels of morality. The foreign govt's should coordinate w/ US re: export/import so everyone could make a fair profit and world economic traden continue. Coca-Cola is made in a lot of places it is impossible for a US citizen to travel!


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Mar 18, 2008)

The case that NYEric is talking about is tied in to the infamous Cycad bust that involved one of the big Colombian growers...forget the name in an Alzheimer's moment......I thing the burglar was also involved in the cycad case...it was written up in the NY Times Magazine a few years ago. Eric


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## Candace (Mar 19, 2008)

> I'm sure I'll post what the end result of all this is, if anyone is inteested.



We're always interested, but only if it's o.k. for you to share the info.


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## NYEric (Mar 19, 2008)

You better not grow
You better not buy 
You better watch out
I'm tellin' you why..
CITES Police are coming 
to town! 
_To the tune of "Santa Claus is coming to town." _


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## Roth (Mar 19, 2008)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> The case that NYEric is talking about is tied in to the infamous Cycad bust that involved one of the big Colombian growers...forget the name in an Alzheimer's moment......I thing the burglar was also involved in the cycad case...it was written up in the NY Times Magazine a few years ago. Eric



I like cycads a lot, and actually collected some... The problem is very different.

For the South American dealer that went into a lot of problems, it was Portilla from Ecuagenera. Actually, quite a few of the big players from EcuadorPeru are dealing in anything they can get from the wild. They fit well the "business" concept. They do not care about conservation or anything else, just make money.

My feelings about cycads are very different than from orchids. A Paph sanderianum is blooming size in the wild in a couple of years. If removed, a seedlings can be "identical" in a few years in the forest. A cycad has 30% value because of the species, and 70%value because of the age. Most of the really expensive cycads are 100+ years old. So their removal cannot be replaced as quickly as a paph in the forest.

The prices are however irrealistic, like for the orchids, in the newspaper and cout cases. Paph rothschildianum was quoted at 2000US$ a plant in front of a London court very recently, and cycads quoted for some thousands US$. Except a few very rare beautiful and old specimen, it is not the "trade price". 

Microcycas calocoma can be purchased from Italy, big, for EUR 200...


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## NYEric (Mar 20, 2008)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> The case that NYEric is talking about is tied in to the infamous Cycad bust that involved one of the big Colombian growers...forget the name in an Alzheimer's moment......I thing the burglar was also involved in the cycad case...it was written up in the NY Times Magazine a few years ago. Eric


Actually what I was refering to was something personally told to me by an orchid species vendor from California. Either way, lack of real knowledge and sensationalism are affecting U.S. vendors and hobbiests.


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## Ernie (Mar 20, 2008)

At the end of each week, someone post the Cliff's Notes version of Sanderianum's posts for me.  

-Steve Jobs (Ernie)


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## Kyle (Mar 20, 2008)

NYEric said:


> Actually what I was refering to was something personally told to me by an orchid species vendor from California. Either way, lack of real knowledge and sensationalism are affecting U.S. vendors and hobbiests.



I think you are talking about the same case. It was a few years back. No charges were laid against Portilla, just a few tense hours in jail. I think his visa was suspended for a while too. There were multiple people targeted in this sting operation, not just ecuagenera. I believe the case as a whole is ongoing to this day.

Thats about all I know of that subject.

Kyle


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## NYEric (Mar 20, 2008)

Well, maybe it's the same case but certainly a different 'target'.


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## Hien (Mar 20, 2008)

Sanderianum said:


> ...
> In many of the highly publicized instances I can think of right now, whether Kovach, Azadehdel, Boscha Popow, regardless of the fact they had really illegal plants or not, those cases appeared only because they have been either careless or could be competitor later. Some people got a supply ( from Boscha Popow as an example, at a time the paphs were Appendix II, not I) of Chinese paphiopedilum, several hundreds plants of each species, and thereafter contacted the authorities to "blank" their stocks by giving their supplier. That was a matter of jealousy, unwillingness to have a competitor ( some small player take a stock like that and want to destroy their supplier, first knowing that their supplier will always have stock and sell to everyone, and second to destroy the competitors and have a monopoly), and they will push individuals officers. Of course, what they inform might be illegal (like the people who informed the Customs aboutSian Lim in England as well), BUT the main fact is that those informants first have a financial reward, second are not disturbed when selling their stock, third have a temporary monopoly, fourth increase the value of their investment. That's it and that's all.
> 
> The most dangerous people are few people who blatantly lie about the rarity of paphs. NO! Paphs are/were not rare in the wild. Paphiopedilum armeniacum is "on the verge of extinction" for the last 20 years according to some people. So where are those thousands of wild plants coming each year from ???
> ...



I love to read your posts, actually I should say, I am looking for them everytime I am on the forum. 
I met Mr. Boscha at the show in New York, he is quite a cheerful, witty, friendly & down to earth person from what I can tell. 
Hate to hear that something happened to him. I was not awared that it was something publicized. I am only heard about the Kovach & Norris cases. And I felt so bad for both of them.
Just the thirst to have a species named after yourself, and you got slapped left & right. Where as hundred of kovachii plants were exported away by others.
The way I see it, All the species start out as collected, all the hybrids we have right now can trace back of ancestry from the jungles. Period.
True conservation,
- is refuse to buy into the hype of the likes of Humvees that waste energy resources,
-is not to eat so much meat that acres of rain forest are downed to make way for ranches.
- I even think that all of those disappeared mountains from mining may affect earth weather pattern (or at least the local).
These things combined may increase the temperature to a point that decimate the habitats for orchids & everything else more than any wild harvesting action .
And about the informants, the vietnamese has a fable with a moral quote in the end. every kids in Vietnam heard this growing up.
"There was a man who save a few animals & a person from drowning. Each animal repay the kind deed with gratitude, only the fellow human betrays, lies, and informs to put the guy in prison. Finally the animals save the prisoner."
That is a very short sighted way to do business. Once peoples know the person's reputation of selling/betray suppliers for a little bit of profit, nobody else would want to have anything to do with him. 
So no more future business.


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## NYEric (Mar 20, 2008)

Hien said:


> True conservation,
> - is refuse to buy into the hype of the likes of Humvees that waste energy resources,
> -is not to eat so much meat that acres of rain forest are downed to make way for ranches.
> - I even think that all of those disappeared mountains from mining may affect earth weather pattern (or at least the local).
> These things combined may increase the temperature to a point that decimate the habitats for orchids & everything else more than any wild harvesting action .


I don't know about that but it's certainly going to be a factor for all type of life on this planet! 
_Year 3010, Cockroach decendent couple:_ "Look at the prehistoric human bones honey, let's get a set to mount on the living room wall!"!!!


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## gonewild (Mar 20, 2008)

NYEric said:


> I don't know about that but it's certainly going to be a factor for all type of life on this planet!
> _Year 3010, Cockroach decendent couple:_ "Look at the prehistoric human bones honey, let's get a set to mount on the living room wall!"!!!



I doubt if it will be legal for cockroaches to dig up the bones of their primitive ancestors in 3010.


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## NYEric (Mar 20, 2008)

Yes, mutant cockroach plant and game police ratify exploration clause in 3005!


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## gonewild (Mar 20, 2008)

NYEric said:


> Yes, mutant cockroach plant and game police ratify exploration clause in 3005!



Ahh, but not for the hobbyist den owner to hang on their wall like some kind of art!


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## NYEric (Mar 20, 2008)

People will think the DB is affecting us! :rollhappy:


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## gonewild (Mar 20, 2008)

NY Eric said:


> People will think the DB is affecting us! :roll happy:



It is..... we are sane.


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## NYEric (Mar 20, 2008)

At least we can still laugh at the difficulties.


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## Roth (Mar 20, 2008)

Hien said:


> I love to read your posts, actually I should say, I am looking for them everytime I am on the forum.
> 
> I met Mr. Boscha at the show in New York, he is quite a cheerful, witty, friendly & down to earth person from what I can tell.
> Hate to hear that something happened to him.



That was long time ago, as Mr. Boscha was the best supplier at that time of many paphiopedilum ( in the 80's, so pre-CITES App I !). Many people started to be jealous, and they tried to destroy him actually.

A part of the story that is untold, in Germany at that time everyone was importing wild plants. I think there were not that many plants from seed, if any. The problem is that Mr. Boscha was willing to travel to find the sources worldwide, whereas most of the other growers would stick their fat a$$ on their chairs, only call the suppliers, and wait him to come back to buy.

If you do not travel, there is NO WAY you can get original quality plants. I have seen shipments from Ecuagenera, from Thailand... where the customer did not travel. Well in Thailand, the paph leucochilum blooming size ranged from hybrids to collected rough plants with 2 leaves, to 5 growth plants, all mixed.

The "chinese" paphiopedilum and paph sanderianum were out of reach for someone who does not travel at that time. It should be noticed too that sanderianum was the "focus" why Mr. Boscha at that time started to have huge problems, but all the growers imported massive quantities of stonei, and I cannot figure out the difference between stonei and sand in terms of "legality".

So his competitors join-ventured and tried to destroy him. Fortunately, he recovered.

About the people that inform to the customs about him and Mr. Azadehdel, well, they are quite famous figures of the orchid world, and still doing good sales...



> The way I see it, All the species start out as collected, all the hybrids we have right now can trace back of ancestry from the jungles. Period.



I would say that the hybrid market consumes as much if not more wild plants than the species market actually... To make hybrids of hangianum with a pedigree and selected parents, people have to bloom hundreds of them. To sell blooming size hangiaum, they can buy 100 plants, grow them 6 months and sell them...



> - I even think that all of those disappeared mountains from mining may affect earth weather pattern (or at least the local).



Some mountains have been chopped off in Sarawak, at their base they built a huge road, deemed to be Kuching-Kota Kinabalu. The mountains "drains" faster as a result, and many sanderianum died as a consequence... not to mention most of the plants on those mountains.



> That is a very short sighted way to do business. Once peoples know the person's reputation of selling/betray suppliers for a little bit of profit, nobody else would want to have anything to do with him.



That would be the logic, but I know that in all instances, even if those informants people are known, they still do business, and good one at that. Several reasons 

- for the conservationist that scream whenever they see a wild collected dandelion they are "heroes"
- people forget when it comes to "business". I know several cases where the informant and the jailed people still do business afterwards. There are not that many players in the orchid world, and sellers have to sell, buyers to buy...
- hobbyists that search for some peculiar plants will still buy from those informant sources.


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## Hien (Mar 20, 2008)

Sanderianum said:


> That would be the logic, but I know that in all instances, even if those informants people are known, they still do business, and good one at that. Several reasons
> 
> - for the conservationist that scream whenever they see a wild collected dandelion they are "heroes"
> - people forget when it comes to "business". I know several cases where the informant and the jailed people still do business afterwards. There are not that many players in the orchid world, and sellers have to sell, buyers to buy...
> - hobbyists that search for some peculiar plants will still buy from those informant sources.



It is strange indeed, the business world of orchid.
Still, betraying is the hardest thing to forgive


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Mar 20, 2008)

NY Eric....I was with you when we both heard the story....I think I mentioned the cycad incident to him, and I think he confirmed that the same person, or people associated with him, were involved...Eric....then again, who knows...another alzheimers moment?


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## paphjoint (Mar 22, 2008)

Interesting debate in this thread -- 
Sanderianum you seems to be very well informed, 
but what is your personal opinion on buying wild collected plants (that is when its evident that the plants are wild collected)


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## Roth (Mar 23, 2008)

pandora said:


> Interesting debate in this thread --
> Sanderianum you seems to be very well informed,
> but what is your personal opinion on buying wild collected plants (that is when its evident that the plants are wild collected)



I do not know myself sometimes... It depends on the species. Quite a few are used as pot-plant or decorative/ornamentals in their country of origin. My thread on armeniacum is a very, very good example. So a hobbyist buying a wild collected plant from that, even through a reseller, is not going to harm the wild plants that much, because the collection does not occurs for hobby market, but for pot-plant market. Hobbyists buying such plants most likely save them from the pot-plant trade, where the plants perish by the dozens of thousands.

If you take sanderianum, and the others, then it is very different. The plants are collected in huge numbers, and most nurseries do not know how to care about them. For 1 plant of thoses species sold to hobbyist, there has been 10 or 20 killed, minimum. Buying such plants however does not encourage the collection as well, most of the wild collected paphs from the "non pot plant type" ends up in large nurseries who make "selection" out of them, like in Taiwan.

In all instances, a hobbyist buying wild plants is a consumer of "rejected plants". He is not the main market. Most of the wild plants are dead, or used to make the so beautiful flasks, prized by the "conservationists" as "protecting the wild plants"... One very selected sanderianum "needs" many hundreds plants of sands collected.

Sometimes I have good laugh about that, because if you take 1 highly awarded sanderianum, that required let's say 500 plants to be collected ( that's a good estimate), this sand will make 2000 seedlings in flask, whose only 200 will reach blooming size ( and be praised as "artificially propagated). So 200 sands from seed require... 500 sands from the wild. There is something wrong somewhere...


Now, I think that whole scheme of wild collecting plants is completely wrong at present time. 

If people who collect try to value their "product", make beautiful established plants, no diseases, they would no need to collect 10000 plants and destroy everything, I think maybe 100-500 selected in the wild in bloom would be, at most, more than enough for 1 or 2 years of market, perfectly grown... And the wild populations numbers thousands of plants, the pressure would not be important. it is working very well with tree ferns, some macrozamia, lepidozamia...


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## paphjoint (Mar 23, 2008)

*Xavier *
-- you did not answer my question -- or if its your answer its an hypocritic one. 
You're always talking about what the others do -- 

In terms of illegal plant imports from what I've heard your're big shot yourself right ?

I've heard that you now live somewhere in Asia and are collecting plants and selling them via outlets in Europe.

I know that you sold a batch of sanderianum's in Europe recently that was far from being legal. 

How do you relate to that given the fact that you're sort "preaching" the contrary ?

No offense of course


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## Roth (Mar 23, 2008)

pandora said:


> *Xavier *
> In terms of illegal plant imports from what I've heard your're big shot yourself right ?
> I've heard that you now live somewhere in Asia and are collecting plants and selling them via outlets in Europe.
> I know that you sold a batch of sanderianum's in Europe recently that was far from being legal.



I never sold any "batch of sanderianum that was far from being legal"... It is simply defamatory. Please name the people who made such statement...


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## paphjoint (Mar 23, 2008)

Sanderianum said:


> It is simply defamatory. Please name the people who made such statement...



Ha -- As well as the plants that you're exporting from Vietnam right? Somebody forwarded us the list -- Impressive!!

although I found that you've some gap's in Paphiopedilum taxonomy knowledge - but what the theck if it can't be sold under a name then lets sell it under another.


Legal plants Ha Ha Ha


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## Gcroz (Mar 23, 2008)

Seems to be getting a little hostile in here. 

Sand, thanks for the info, I love reading your posts.

Now, what truly is the problem about making orchid plants illegal, and thus hampering the propogation business, is that all these plants will one day be extinct in situ due to a variety of causes. Therefore, there should be free trade in the orchid flasks (I'm applying this to the US which dosn't allow the Vietnamese Paphs. technically) since collectors and breeders will one day be the only place that thse plants grow. This may not be in my lifetime, but someday it will come to pass.

So perhaps as orchid growers, rather than fighting amongst ourselves, maybe we could set an example of how not to rape Mother Earth.

And yes, to those who know me, I may sound hyppocritical. But then again, Hypocrisy is a sin we ALL are guilty of at some point in our lives.


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## Heather (Mar 23, 2008)

For the record:

This forum is much about freedom of expression, so if you have a problem with something that is said it is up to you to refute it. It is not up to me to delete it.


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## Rick (Mar 23, 2008)

I think we should try to quantify rarity for discussions of conservation.

For instance in my home state Tennnessee which covers about 50,000 square miles and has 95 counties (roughly 500 sqm/county), the convention used for describing rarity is as follows:

Common - found in 48 or more (50% or more) of counties
Frequent - found in 32 - 47 counties
Occasional - found in 11 - 31 counties
Infrequent - 6-10 counties
rare - <5 counties

These conventions are widely used by biologists and state/federal regulators. Also do not confuse rarity with local abundance, and read on.

The topic of "endangered" or "threatened" is based on more subjective criteria, and based more on impacts rather than rarity. For instance the Nashville crayfish is listed as Federally Endangered. It is found only in 3 counties (one watershed) in TN. At any one location you can find 1000's in a few hundred square feet, but since this species is in a fast developing area, it is considered endangered since one person with a bulldozer can wipe out millions in a good days work, and the odds are good that this can (and does) happen.

In contrast there are darter (fish) species I have collected that are found in only one watershed (in two counties) and are found in groups of a couple dozen at a time if you find the right boulder. These species only got "State watch and concern" status since the counties are rural and have very little human impacts going on. The danger of wiping these guys out is considerably lower although they have much lower local abundance than Nashville crayfish.


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## Rick (Mar 23, 2008)

I suspect under the above descriptions most orchids are rare to uncommon at best. Although locally they may be very abundant. Threatened and Endangered are based on human impacts to maintain a sustainable population. Some species with wide geographic distribution "common species" will probably not be locally abundant.

Orchids that are deceptive pollinators that offer no energetic reward (most orchids and probably all slippers) cannot be more common than the condition or species they are mimicking. Otherwise they will burn out their pollinator and have to resort strictly to vegetative reproduction. Pollination and seed production maintains genetic diversity and is a more efficient means for widespread dispersal.


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## Sirius (Mar 23, 2008)

pandora said:


> In terms of illegal plant imports from what I've heard your're big shot yourself right ?
> 
> I've heard that you now live somewhere in Asia and are collecting plants and selling them via outlets in Europe.
> 
> ...



Pandora, I must request that you provide some sort of proof to your claims that Sanderianum is selling plants illegally. Had you bothered to read our forum rules before posting, you would have found that this forum requires proof of any accusation made like this. Our forum rules also spell out the policy for banning a forum member. In the event a member is personally attacking another member, they will recieve two warnings before being disciplined. I personally believe that posting unproven, derogatory statements falls under the category of personal attack. Perhaps you could enlighten us all with some tangible proof of your accusations?




pandora said:


> Ha -- As well as the plants that you're exporting from Vietnam right? Somebody forwarded us the list -- Impressive!!
> 
> although I found that you've some gap's in Paphiopedilum taxonomy knowledge - but what the theck if it can't be sold under a name then lets sell it under another.
> 
> ...



I suppose you are going to post the list? After all, why should anyone believe you since it seems your sole purpose for joining the forum was to discredit Sanderianum?


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## Heather (Mar 23, 2008)

I must admit, I'd like to see the list as well....


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## Candace (Mar 23, 2008)

Phrag, good points.


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## paphjoint (Mar 23, 2008)

Unfortunately I can't do that -- I promised the people who forwarded me the lists to keep quiet about their origin. and you're right my sole point was to discredit Xavier --

He has been hurting people since he first showed up back in the early 90's he was just a young lad at that time. 

Most of you know him from the book Orchid Fever - which is also a piece of crap especially the part in which he plays.

More recently he f.... up a French orchid forum -- believe me he really f... it up -- this guy is bad and I just thought you should know - and believe me you don't know half of it -- 
Roger over and out


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## Sirius (Mar 23, 2008)

And finally, some truth.

Pandora, I will spare everyone from asking you any more questions, because you aren't going to post any more on this subject, right?

You started this account to attack another member knowing from the beginning you were never going to provide any proof to back up your claims. It doesn't matter if Sanderianum did or did not do the things you said he did. At this point, you're half-attempts are doing nothing but creating more problems.

Sanderianum, if you truly have a past that warrants this kind of attention, I feel sorry for you. I hope your future posts contain verifiable statements. Or at the very least, that you make sure everyone knows that what you are saying is opinion, so that everyone can make up their own mind about the information you present. The friends of our enemies are also our enemies.

I think the forum rules make it clear enough where this thread went wrong. If you all disagree, we can continue to sort this out by presenting some facts. I think many of you dread where that might lead.


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## Paul (Mar 23, 2008)

You speek with wisdom, John. 

It's true about what Sanderianum did to the french forum 2 years ago (the forum is now nevertheless very popular). I hope now it's past and will never happen here. 
Please keep cool guys.


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## Heather (Mar 23, 2008)

Perhaps we could know the story of the French forum?


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## smartie2000 (Mar 23, 2008)

I'm a little curious about the french forum. Keep in mind paul says it was two years ago...
Je parle un peu francais, but very little since I don't get the chance to use my high school french. I'd probably get lost if I looked myself

I do feel that Sanderianum is a valuable member with lots of info, both about paphs and the politics of them....


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## Paul (Mar 23, 2008)

Heather said:


> Perhaps we could know the story of the French forum?



What I can testify is that Xavier was co-administrator of the forum (but not the owner), and when the owner and other administrator have learnt more about him, he was fired. And then he hacked the forum some times before it was udpated and more secured, then the forum has grown.
When he was member/administrator, he was very active and provided many many cultural informations to the forum members (these infos have been removed thanks to his wish)
BUT he took pleasure to send "special" private messages when administrator, and make some jokes like porn photos and drawings in his private messages to members (I personnaly received one before I was moderator, one can say hazing) The forum was said elitist, and today it's not true...


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## Paul (Mar 23, 2008)

I precise it's truth, it happened, but it's past and I hope never happen again anywhere.


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## Sirius (Mar 23, 2008)

smartie2000 said:


> I do feel that Sanderianum is a valuable member with lots of info, both about paphs and the politics of them....



Just remember that everything he has posted to date are his opinions. It is our responsibility as members of this forum to take the information somebody else posts, and interpret it with objectivity. Personally, I want to know the real source of any information given to me.


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## Ernie (Mar 23, 2008)

Woah! Hold the phone. Who's this French Xavier person??? I was totally led to believe that Sanderianum was like some collegiate yet shoeless, twenty-something Vietnamese kid that wanders the jungles by day and browses the street markets every weekend??? Did I read too much into the posts??? Anyone else with me or am I alone? I'd like to know more about this person now so I can go back and reconsider the posts and the accuracy to which I lent them. 

-Steve Jobs (Ernie)


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## swamprad (Mar 23, 2008)

Better dust off your copy of Orchid Fever!


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## Heather (Mar 23, 2008)

Best be reading those posts again, Mr. Jobs. oke:


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Mar 23, 2008)

This is why I post everything under my own name....I have no choice but to take responsibility for what I say, and everybody knows who said it....and what I have said in the past, in other places...if anybody chooses to look for it, will find it.....unlikely, since everybody else has a life..............Take care, Eric


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## NYEric (Mar 23, 2008)

Wow, I stay off the forum for a couple of days and the kids go crazy! Eric M. you may be right about the alzheimers moment I've been going downhill since 18 Y.O.


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## Heather (Mar 23, 2008)

Eric M. I agree - it's one reason I am here as Heather and not one of the other names I have been known as on forums (Paphgirl generally). It's also one of the reasons I no longer go by "grex whore" in my avatar...Running a forum means one needs to be recognizable and responsible (I like Administratrix tho...keeping that one for a while...)


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## rdlsreno (Mar 24, 2008)

This really interesting!!!!


Ramon


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## Gcroz (Mar 24, 2008)

Heather: at least "Administratrix", despite having a lovely s&m feel to it, is actually a legal term. I've used it many legal briefs.

Who said being a lawyer isn't fun.

LOL


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## NYEric (Mar 24, 2008)

[Lawyer] Joke of the day:
For every man in jail;
there's a lawyer on the outside that represented him.


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## Ernie (Mar 24, 2008)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> This is why I post everything under my own name....I have no choice but to take responsibility for what I say, and everybody knows who said it....and what I have said in the past, in other places...if anybody chooses to look for it, will find it.....unlikely, since everybody else has a life..............Take care, Eric



I'm with you Eric. Note that there are very few of us that use our real name and actually have info filled in in the top right part of our posts and on our public profile. My previous post with the innocence of a schoolgirl was to emphasize that many forum folk hide their identity for one reason or another. Some just do it because they are creative enough to come up with some cool name. 

-Steve Jobs (Ernie)


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## NYEric (Mar 24, 2008)

Ernie said:


> . Some just do it because they are creative enough to come up with some cool name.
> -Steve Jobs (Ernie)


Why thank you Steve!


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## Roth (Mar 25, 2008)

> Ha -- As well as the plants that you're exporting from Vietnam right? Somebody forwarded us the list -- Impressive!!
> 
> although I found that you've some gap's in Paphiopedilum taxonomy knowledge - but what the theck if it can't be sold under a name then lets sell it under another.
> 
> ...



Still defamatory posts... I do not care about that at all, do you know ? For the gap in taxonomy knowledge, I do not think that much ( and I am not a pretender anyway...).

If you speak about my tissue culture lab, thanks, it is up and running, no problems about that.

Anyway, I think I know who you are, and if like that, I think as well you owe to me. That's a good lesson, never be kind with people like you. I should have known.

Rick, about the above descriptions, it depends, and how well the things are explored. From experience, you know they are in "that" mountain, you go to see them, but you climb the path that is 50m on the left of the right one. You will see very, very few plants. Some meters on the left, they are by the thousands, but to access, you have to go down-down and up-up again... Paphs colonies cannot be easily quantified, because they are on mountains, and it is not that easy to access, you cannot compare with plain land. 

Pandora, I like "More recently he f.... up a French orchid forum --. This guy is bad and I just though you should now blablabla...

You cannot discredit me, and you know it very well... I ll ask the webmaster of orchideefantome.com if he is willing to explain what really happens, including the private stories behind and who did what. 

Otherwise I will have to do it myself ( with the database from that time, that I backed up from that forum, including a huge log of all the connections, entries, who typed what from where...).

What is true, and maybe you mistake a little bit:

- There was a forum, orchidees.fr forum actually. After a while, some homophobic, and awful pictures appeared. 3 members ( administrators at that time of orchideefantome, I was not yet "administrator, just moderator), complained that they got a lof of homophobic, necrophiliac, and whatever you can imagine messages, and that the webmaster of that forum did not do anything to prevent/upgrade the forum ( at that time it was true, but he could not do, he used a "list type" webpage for that forum, no options of getting members registered, no options of logging the IP, a little bit like an open blog where anyone can add anything anywhere. Actually, they got private homophobic messages from a couple of members from that forum ( and those members were clearly at that time identified), and the webmaster would not ban/filter those people.

Because of those discriminatory posters, we all decided to make orchideefantome. That was the basis of that forum.

Another problem was the heavy pollution at that time, many people would stuff the forum with "shall I cut my flowerstem" posts many, many times. It was obvious as well that many questions were here, not posted by "real" novices, but by "fake ones" that were just on purpose to make that forum painful to read ( shall I remember that it was a list-webpage style forum at that time, so you had to browse everything to find interesting posts). There were FAQs of course, but those "strange" posters kept asking the same and the same question over and over...

The new forum was not meant at first to be "elitist" in its members reading, but more "higher level" for the questions/answers. 

I was quite willing to do that too, because sometimes beginners can misunderstand, or follow quite "dangerous" advice. At that time on the new forum, many hormons, chemicals ( Cygon, but Temik as well, Carbofuran...) were discussed, some culture techniques that were experimental, etc... 

Frankly, the access to some sections was restricted, as some people are very poor chemists too, and I have seen posts asking if it is OK to dilute Temik in water and spray in the kitchen, or so on... So we wanted to avoid that. Some uses were clearly illegal according to the plant phytosanitary chemicals laws too (and yes I, as well, discussed and advised about that, plant matters !), so it was difficult to make some parts public.

I never f___d up that forum as Pandora said, actually it was a very nice forum at that time. Some personnal matters started to interfere, including the reappearance of the porn messages. The wolf was actually amongst the sheeps in that forum again, and so far amongst the earlier members.

I disgressed about a problem of MP readings, one of the later administrators on that forum was reading all the MP like crazy, and she still does as far as I have heard. 

We have a problem in France, and Europe regarding the forums. The owner ( Steph actually for that forum) is in charge of ANY legal matters around the forum, including pedophiles that could try to catch someone by MP, or people dealing drugs by MP, or whatever can happens. It is a very unfair law, but it's like that.

Therefore not crypting the MP can save a lot of problems with the police, shall they ask who contacted who during a criminal investigation. Many forums owners have got into deep, deep trouble because they could not let the investigators access to the MP, or they let dangerous people using the MP and the forums. The regulations are different in the USA as far as I understand...

In France, you have to respect strongly the privacy, but on the other side, the law is very explicit, you are in charge. That's pretty much like carrying a sealed suitcase for someone you do not know. You open it and you break privacy, you don't and you can have problems. So many forums administrators there choose to have access to the MP, so they can not be legally charged ( there is no proof that people read the MP or have access to them, but there is proof that illegal MPs were on the board). They choose the lesser risk.

I heard as well that some MP were modified, some much after I left the forum completely as an administrator. The owner is as a standalone very OK guy, very knowledgeable, but he has some people close to him that are far, very far from being nice.

As I have nothing to feel guilty of, I am not bothered about that forum story.

Paul, as far as I know, you cannot testify anything, only what 2 people told you. I was not exactly fired actually... I give up because reading the MP, and having some hidden forums to have a lot of paranoia coming from one girl (administrator now) reading the MPs and interpreting everything 'ha she's a lesbian ! I guessed it from long ago !', 'That guy should be fired, you see he posts that he likes XYZ, but I hate XYZ', and all the puppets around saying yesyesyes we do we do my "Queen"...) was not to my taste, to say the least ! 

Then, the problem is that there were forums inside the forums, where 1 admin and 2 modos can have access, or 2 admins together, or, or... and discuss/complain about everything, everywhere anytime.

Paul, you are moderator. Only the administrators can make you learn what happens exactly, and introduce you to the private forums ( there are several still on orchideefantome). Ask to be administrator immediately, no delay, and read ALL the forums, and see by yourself. Do not wait for some of those forums to be deleted... 

By the way, it is funny, I think I just got an email from you asking questions about how to import flasks to France, and I replied at lenght to it, is that correct ? 

It is a bit harsh to criticize me publicly and ask me for informations ( I never refused any informations to anyone who sent to me an email...) privately. Do not worry, you are not the only one to do or have done that (including several from orchideefantome !), like Judas did it in his time right? ( and now I am not Jesus !).

Many people I provide advise, freely, and then I discover that many people have two sides. That's interesting...

About asking my posts to be deleted from orchideefantome. Yes, I DID ! Orchideefantome was at that time restricted to the members, (and I have not been fired because the admin discovered blablabla. The admins discussed with me off that forum for many emails, exchanging ideas, and asking about advise, if you want to know the true. And I like to share my knowledge on orchid growing, so I was STUPID AS HELL enough to reply to many, many questions), and I did not see any points to keep my posts on that forum and leaving it because of people behaving with me improperly. Furthermore, there was no public access, so to let people that criticize and threaten me have access privately to my posts, why should I allow that?

You pass to your best friend your car so he can go to make shopping. Then you learn that he just was going with your wife in a hotel. You think it is unfair to ban him from using your car ? No way !

About being fired from orchideefantome, yes... "Someone" allowed some members for a short time to see the messages on orchideefantome, including all those hidden/secret ones, criticizing and laughing at the others members. I think they can testify here if you wish.

I think that you promised a couple things to me that you never did, then I was fed up and told you to forget it, right ?


Xavier Garreau de Loubresse
( and I think many people know that Sanderianum is my posting avatar...).


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## Paul (Mar 25, 2008)

Hello Xavier,
This is not my goal to criticize what you tell or did/did not. Someone spoke about something that happened on Of.com before/when you left it.
I wanted to give my opinion on what I "saw" that time. I'm not talking about all I was told by administrators, because it's not me to say that and I could tell it wrongly. The story about one message with as humoristic as "hard" drawing you sent to me is true, but it's the kind of message you send to a friend, not to someone you don't know much. I took it like a joke, and never like an offense (but others could have been). You used to make me one or two others very little jokes (And you wrote a little about it on private section that I read when I become moderator). It was like a test for you to see if I could be moderator (if I can be "zen"). And Yes I am! 
Well, I would be curious to know your own "story" about it, but maybe it should be on private messages.
Bye



Sanderianum said:


> Paul, as far as I know, you cannot testify anything, only what 2 people told you. I was not exactly fired actually... I give up because reading the MP, and having some hidden forums to have a lot of paranoia coming from one girl (administrator now) reading the MPs and interpreting everything 'ha she's a lesbian ! I guessed it from long ago !', 'That guy should be fired, you see he posts that he likes XYZ, but I hate XYZ', and all the puppets around saying yesyesyes we do we do my "Queen"...) was not to my taste, to say the least !
> 
> Then, the problem is that there were forums inside the forums, where 1 admin and 2 modos can have access, or 2 admins together, or, or... and discuss/complain about everything, everywhere anytime.
> 
> ...


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## NYEric (Mar 25, 2008)

Well if this doesn't draw attention to the forum..
OK guys, I'm not an administrator or moderator or anything. In fact, there is one admin here whose posts I refuse to read. However, I, for one, would appreciate people not bringing old feuds, or bad personal feelings, or corrupt business practices to this place.


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## Hien (Mar 25, 2008)

pandora said:


> Ha -- As well as the plants that you're exporting from Vietnam right? Somebody forwarded us the list -- Impressive!!
> 
> although I found that you've some gap's in Paphiopedilum taxonomy knowledge - but what the theck if it can't be sold under a name then lets sell it under another.
> 
> ...




Pandora
I think you can provide/post the list of exporting plants from Vietnam.
I would really like to get a glimpse of what is considered IMPRESSIVE. I am not sure anything can be that impressive anymore. Considering the fact that Taiwanese & Japanese growers have all the vietnamese species that discovered to this point by the zillions (I am exagerating here). Even vietnamese paphs are not rare in Europe, Canada, Australia etc.. etc...
Only the USA growers are hanging by the b..., so we are the exception
From what I can see:
-the list does not incriminate whoever you said that Sanderianum sending it to (you don't have to say who receiving it).
-posting the list also does not prove that Sanderianum sending it either.

So it is no harm to let us see the list. Just so that the USA citizens like me can salivate.


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## NYEric (Mar 25, 2008)

Hien!


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## Hien (Mar 25, 2008)

NYEric said:


> Hien!


 Eric, when ever I hear of any list of unattainable , desirable, desperately want-able thingy. I salivate like Doctor's Pavlo's puppy.
:evil:


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## NYEric (Mar 25, 2008)

vietnmense album, jackii album, hangianumxbellatulum... 
Good thing you weren't at the WOC, we would have needed a bucket to sop you up. oke:


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## Hien (Mar 25, 2008)

NYEric said:


> vietnmense album, jackii album, hangianumxbellatulum...
> Good thing you weren't at the WOC, we would have needed a bucket to sop you up. oke:


 I recommend some spanking for any Slippertalk member who went to the WOC and did not buy these plants.


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## rainforest (Mar 25, 2008)

Unfortunately, it appears clearly that KGB methods were used by the staff managers to break up some \"members\" on this French forum. This is a nasty bad love French story as i like. I can give you all names if you want : ririsushi, becasse, lates, seb..............

Several persons I know were or are still victims of the paranoia, not from moderators or the owner of this french forum, but from the woman administrator. Paul or other moderators should adopt global vision for a good understanding of the situation.

Good bye Pandora, keep this forum quite

R2D2 Team…..


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## Rick (Mar 26, 2008)

Sanderianum said:


> Rick, about the above descriptions, it depends, and how well the things are explored. From experience, you know they are in "that" mountain, you go to see them, but you climb the path that is 50m on the left of the right one. You will see very, very few plants. Some meters on the left, they are by the thousands, but to access, you have to go down-down and up-up again... Paphs colonies cannot be easily quantified, because they are on mountains, and it is not that easy to access, you cannot compare with plain land.
> 
> 
> 
> avatar...).



Of course it depends on exploration, but the entire country of Vietnam is only 2.5 times bigger than Tennessee (so add Kentucky and Northern Georgia), and most of our orchid species are found in the Appalachian mountain range on the eastern end of the state. The lady slippers in TN, are found in very similar habitats to the paphs in Vietnam and China, and yes you can find pockets of them that number in thousands of plants. But one new Walmart Super Center or a new subdivision would easily bulldoze a sizable portion of the entire states Cyp. resources because the total number of large populations is very low. Under logging pressures nobody realizes this until they can't find them any more.


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## NYEric (Mar 27, 2008)

When will we stop the insanity!?


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