# Paphiopedilum spicerianum ‘Hercules’



## DrLeslieEe (Dec 25, 2019)

So here is the spicerianum that refused to bloom for over 2 seasons that I stuck in the cold section. It immediately sent up a spike and unveiled the bloom within a month. It’s very stout and round, almost looking huskier than most and with a wide flat dorsal sepal. Those qualities remind me of Hercules. So I will call this little guy by that cultivar. It also represents the Herculean task it took me to rebloom it lol. Similar in shape to the ‘Tustin’ AM/AOS. In addition, the staminode structure and coloration is in line with a spicerianum identity as some hybrids like Bruno looks similar except in their deeply superior cleft on staminoidal shield. The staminode shield on Hercules is quite striking with the ‘green spider’ in the center, flanked by the deep magenta peripheral to it, and white marginal picotee. 

NS 8 cm x 7 cm
DS 6 cm x 5 cm
P 2.2 x 4 cm


----------



## Don I (Dec 25, 2019)

Beauty, I don't know why, but I kill these things left and right.
Don


----------



## blondie (Dec 25, 2019)

A very good bloom.


----------



## DrLeslieEe (Dec 25, 2019)

Thanks all! I think he’s adorable lol

The staminode design is just an art from nature. The green spider logo is a trademark of this species. 

Don, this species need gentle air blowing over it constantly.


----------



## DrLeslieEe (Dec 25, 2019)

May I reach out to the experts out there like Tom, Olaf and Braeme to confirm if this is a true and valid spicerianum based on staminode etc? I would be interested to know their opinions.


----------



## Guldal (Dec 28, 2019)

Love it! 

Btw. Braem isn't here anymore - he left in anger, even before I joined the forum!


----------



## NYEric (Dec 30, 2019)

Nice. Very wide dorsal! Thanks for sharing.


----------



## DrLeslieEe (Jan 6, 2020)

Unfortunately the plant did not get an award from AOS this past weekend due to reasons beyond my understanding even after it was confirmed by Harold Koopowitz as a true species. There was doubt and that it could be a hybrid. The lesson from this is that we judges are not taxonomists and should relegate this to the professionals. It could have been awarded and sent to the species identification task force (SITF). That is the right and logical way to handle this conundrum. Lesson learnt. 

Here are the pics:



taken at judging. In many people’s eyes it is one of the best spicerianum seen to date. That is probably why it was passed. It was too good to be a species even though the plant was selected from over 100 siblings from In-Charm breeding.


----------



## Guldal (Jan 13, 2020)

It seems to be the season for transcontinental spicerianum suffering:




I just took my own dearly beloved (see my recent post for more photos) to be judged at the last gathering of our orchid society. In some way a bit of a distant cousin to Hercules - and in my (in this case not so) humble opinion also among the best (the brown spot on the dorsal wasn't of course not there then!).

Almost the same fate befell my plant as yours, Leslie, although, the judges at least did not question its species status (which would also have been something of a faux pas, as both parents had been awarded a BM by the stern judges of the German Orchid Society, DOG).

But apart from that, they didn't care a iota about my plant - they disliked the form of the flower, they rated it low in colour (sic!) and size (sic) with its NS of 7 cm and its DS of 6 cm.

I dont know, if it's any consolation to you to know, that you have a fellow sufferer?

Most kind regards,
Jens

Ps. I tried to pm you about this, but couldn't. I hope, I haven't said or done anything to be blocked on purpose?


----------



## DrLeslieEe (Jan 13, 2020)

Dear Jens, I have not blocked you at all. Not sure why it doesn’t go through. Please know I truly value your camaraderie. 

Your flower is adorable and nicely shaped with great colour, size and stance. This is the only species I know that bigger is not better. But alas, the previous contamination of Bruno genes have ruin the true value of improving this species. I’m sorry you had to go through similar frustrations as me. Another day then. Onwards my brave warrior!


----------



## BrucherT (Jan 14, 2020)

Guldal said:


> It seems to be the season for transcontinental spicerianum suffering:
> 
> View attachment 17677
> 
> ...


A $10 DNA sequence analysis would solve these issues...I remain surprised that it hasn’t caught on among orchids.


----------



## DrLeslieEe (Jan 14, 2020)

BrucherT said:


> A $10 DNA sequence analysis would solve these issues...I remain surprised that it hasn’t caught on among orchids.



Where would this place be? Share a link and I will submit for DNA test. By the way, the dorsal did curl like the species in the end lol


----------



## BrucherT (Jan 15, 2020)

I’m involved in the Mycoflora Project, which seeks to straighten out mushroom ID through DNA sequence analysis. Individuals and clubs negotiate a number of samples to test; typically its 50 samples for $500. That’s where I get the $10 figure. I don’t know why orchid clubs wouldn’t do the same? Though orchid ID exponentially less inscrutable than mushroom ID.


----------



## DrLeslieEe (Jan 16, 2020)

Where is this test done and do they have a baseline for orchid species?


----------



## DrLeslieEe (Jan 16, 2020)

Just an update on the folded turret dorsal after 3 weeks. The flat dorsal was only for 8-10 days, after which it returned to ‘normal’ state.


----------



## BrucherT (Jan 16, 2020)

THAT is a spicerianum! WOOF! Which you always knew. 
The tests are done at uni labs. That’s the thing: I don’t know that there is an orchid baseline, I don’t know at all where orchids are with regard to sequencing. I never hear about it.


----------



## BrucherT (Jan 16, 2020)

That dorsal just makes it.


----------



## DrLeslieEe (Jan 16, 2020)

Yes, that dorsal can confuse many... Hercules just has a big head like Jen's flower.
The baseline DNA sequence might be at Dr. Chase's database. I'll see if I can track him down in WOC Taiwan.


----------



## BrucherT (Jan 17, 2020)

That may be the difference...mushroom culture (the community of mushroom people) by and large makes all information available to everybody. That’s the ethos. Compared to orchids, mushrooms are a million times more challenging to identify and learn and DNA sequencing has exploded the historical concepts of diversity, it’s pure craziness. If orchidists did the same, a lost tag would never be more than an annoyance.


----------



## cnycharles (Jan 18, 2020)

Nice flower!


----------



## ChuckG1970 (Jan 19, 2020)

Sometimes plants are so vastly different then the “standard” that they can freak the judges out. I don’t necessarily think that plant was treated with colchicine, but you might see where some judges could think it was. I don’t have any idea if polyploid plants can be awarded or not, but I’m sure that judges have opinions on the topic. Anyway it’s a beautiful plant and I was glad to see that the dorsal recurved that certainly make it a spicy.


----------



## tnyr5 (Jan 19, 2020)

BrucherT said:


> That may be the difference...mushroom culture (the community of mushroom people) by and large makes all information available to everybody. That’s the ethos. Compared to orchids, mushrooms are a million times more challenging to identify and learn and DNA sequencing has exploded the historical concepts of diversity, it’s pure craziness. If orchidists did the same, a lost tag would never be more than an annoyance.



Ah but then we wouldn't be able to BS each other.


----------



## Hoppy (Jan 19, 2020)

Back in May I posted this thread.

https://www.slippertalk.com/threads/variation-in-paphiopedilum-spicerianum.47887/

Noone here would entertain the idea that Plant B could be pure.

Since then I have ascertained plant B came from a grower in Queensland who usually specialises in multi's, and imports flasks from reputable growers.
Comparing with your pics on this thread, and the known history of the seedling, I again think it could be pure spicerianum.
The dorsal also reflexed after after a couple of weeks and looked more spicerianum as it aged.


----------



## DrLeslieEe (Nov 19, 2020)

It’s spicerianum season and ‘Hercules’ is just opening... already the same size as last year as of now. Wonder if he will stretch bigger over the next few weeks like last time.


----------



## swamprad (Nov 19, 2020)

So fantastic!


----------



## musa (Nov 20, 2020)

Most beautiful! However impressive the dorsal might be, to me the staminode which sits in the center like a sparkling juwel is the essential part of that bloom.


----------



## GuRu (Nov 20, 2020)

Lovely, seein this is always a feast for the eyes. This year the colouration seems to be slightly lighter compared with the flower of last year.


----------



## Ozpaph (Nov 20, 2020)

now it looks like a species.


----------



## Guldal (Nov 20, 2020)

Ozpaph said:


> now it looks like a species.


It did last year, too!


----------



## werner.freitag (Nov 20, 2020)

Super !


----------



## BrucherT (Nov 21, 2020)

You have some of the best plants on Earth and to each his own but a turretless spicerianum is a bridge too far for me.


----------



## emydura (Nov 21, 2020)

That is an amazing clone. So it wasn't awarded because the judges weren't convinced it was a full species?


----------



## chris20 (Nov 21, 2020)

Really nice.


----------



## Just1more (Nov 22, 2020)

I just adore this bloom! I must have a try at growing spicerianum!!!


----------



## DrLeslieEe (Nov 22, 2020)

emydura said:


> That is an amazing clone. So it wasn't awarded because the judges weren't convinced it was a full species?


Yes, they had doubts it was pure species due to the large size and flatter than normal dorsal.


----------



## monocotman (Nov 22, 2020)

It seems that the issue with all those close hybrids flooding the market has poisoned the minds of the judges. It maybe a long time before another spicerianum is awarded.


----------



## BrucherT (Nov 23, 2020)

monocotman said:


> It seems that the issue with all those close hybrids flooding the market has poisoned the minds of the judges. It maybe a long time before another spicerianum is awarded.


Maybe just grow spicerianums that bear a passing resemblance to what’s in the jungle instead of this dinnerplate Dahlia.


----------



## DrLeslieEe (Nov 23, 2020)

BrucherT said:


> Maybe just grow spicerianums that bear a passing resemblance to what’s in the jungle instead of this dinnerplate Dahlia.


I could but I don’t grow for awards. I just grow what I like and select. 

As it turns out, one week later the dorsal is beginning to turret. See the flower pics below. You can see the bottom sides of the dorsal just starting to fold and turn outwards to face back. By a week, the full curvature would be done.


----------



## Paph Paradise (Nov 24, 2020)

Unfortunately most of the spicerianum on the market are tainted. The hybrids grow better and look better so they were selected by breeders over the true species. I wrote a blog post about this, not sure if I have already posted it here:
Paph spicerianum

We are maintaining 2 breeding lines of the species with clear providence to jungle collected plants. Unfortunately many other breeders don't really care. I know of one who just bought a bunch of seedlings knowing they are not pure. He basically said that they were close enough.

Dave


----------



## DrLeslieEe (Nov 24, 2020)

Great article Dave. 

I guess until I get a DNA study or send it to SITF, I won’t really know for sure. The provenance of this plant is that it was selected from Taiwan breeding stock from hundreds of plants that were lined bred. If the contamination of ‘Marshall’s’ did enter the line, no one knows. Other than the big dorsal that is flat on opening (but later turrets after 10 days or so), all other details of flower and plant matches the species descriptors, especially the important identifying unique staminode. Mind you, there are some Bruno’s (spicerianum x Leeanum) with this matching staminode. This will forever cast a doubt in Hercules’s true heritage (eventhough a well-known taxonomist has confirmed that Hercules is a spicerianum in his opinion). 

Looking at the award pic of spicerianum ‘Marshall’, whose name has been changed to Leeanum ‘Marshall’ AM/AOS (insigne x spicerianum), it is pretty clear that the staminode is not that of a species. I guess in 1976 there wasn’t enough experts to catch this. 

The mysterious ID continues...


----------



## DrLeslieEe (Nov 24, 2020)

GuRu said:


> Lovely, seein this is always a feast for the eyes. This year the coloration seems to be slightly lighter compared with the flower of last year.


Yes the pouch is lighter this year. The magenta striation in the center of the dorsal is also slightly lighter. The flower however is slightly bigger.


----------



## BrucherT (Nov 24, 2020)

Paph Paradise said:


> Unfortunately most of the spicerianum on the market are tainted. The hybrids grow better and look better so they were selected by breeders over the true species. I wrote a blog post about this, not sure if I have already posted it here:
> Paph spicerianum
> 
> We are maintaining 2 breeding lines of the species with clear providence to jungle collected plants. Unfortunately many other breeders don't really care. I know of one who just bought a bunch of seedlings knowing they are not pure. He basically said that they were close enough.
> ...


I’ll order from you if you’re purveying! Can’t wait to read the post. Thank you!


----------



## BrucherT (Nov 24, 2020)

DrLeslieEe said:


> I could but I don’t grow for awards. I just grow what I like and select.
> 
> As it turns out, one week later the dorsal is beginning to turret. See the flower pics below. You can see the bottom sides of the dorsal just starting to fold and turn outwards to face back. By a week, the full curvature would be done.
> 
> ...


I’m happy for this news! Still suspicious of this big waxy thing but if it curls back, at least it’s making an effort. Good for you for growing what you like...I’m just a grump who feels late to the party. I see breeders already ruining rungsuriyianum before I get to venerate a single specimen, let alone the flask I crave, and I can’t even find a good spicerianum. You maybe surprised to see my spicerianum, which also refuses to turret, among other issues; here she blows:


----------



## Guldal (Nov 24, 2020)

BrucherT said:


> You may be surprised to see my spicerianum, which also refuses to turret, among other issues;


Oh, but she makes an effort, Bruch, albeit, admitted, a bit turretly challenged!


----------



## Paph Paradise (Nov 25, 2020)

BrucherT said:


> I’ll order from you if you’re purveying! Can’t wait to read the post. Thank you!


I will have to see if any are ready to go. We moved a whole bunch. I have an outcross of two jungle plants in community pots. We hope to offer seedlings next fall.

Dave


----------



## musa (Nov 25, 2020)

Interesting article, Dave; I guess that effect is not limited to spicerianum as there are lots of people who don't care.
For Leeanum's staminode see my avatar, looks somehow boaring compared to spicerianum.


----------



## Paph Paradise (Nov 25, 2020)

musa said:


> Interesting article, Dave; I guess that effect is not limited to spicerianum as there are lots of people who don't care.
> For Leeanum's staminode see my avatar, looks somehow boaring compared to spicerianum.



Indeed not limited to this species. We bloomed a rothschildianum from overseas that is clearly a hybrid. Also lowii album that is a Toni Semple hybrid. 

We refuse to use this material for breeding.

Dave


----------



## BrucherT (Nov 25, 2020)

Guldal said:


> Oh, but she makes an effort, Bruch, albeit, admitted, a bit turretly challenged!


Lol isn’t it awful? This is my fourth time blooming it after grabbing it off the Hausermann’s sale bench for cheap. It blooms like this every time. I actually wonder if it’s a hybrid! But I haven’t had the heart to get rid of it because each mature growth produces THREE new fans and I run light and food experiments on it. But it always blooms exactly like this; crooked everything. I just hope Dr. Leslie is laughing at my bitchiness.


----------



## BrucherT (Nov 25, 2020)

BrucherT said:


> I’ll order from you if you’re purveying! Can’t wait to read the post. Thank you!


We’ve done business before. I need to send you pics of that incredible OZ survivor philippinense.


----------



## Guldal (Nov 25, 2020)

BrucherT said:


> Lol isn’t it awful? This is my fourth time blooming it ... It blooms like this every time.


I think I will alter my former statement to 'genetically challenged'!


----------



## DrLeslieEe (Nov 28, 2020)

BrucherT said:


> I’m happy for this news! Still suspicious of this big waxy thing but if it curls back, at least it’s making an effort. Good for you for growing what you like...I’m just a grump who feels late to the party. I see breeders already ruining rungsuriyianum before I get to venerate a single specimen, let alone the flask I crave, and I can’t even find a good spicerianum. You maybe surprised to see my spicerianum, which also refuses to turret, among other issues; here she blows:


Poor pinched dorsal. If this has happened over the last 2-3 bloomings, then I’m afraid it’s genetically coded. Don’t expect it to stray from this unfortunately. Too bad unless you don’t care about looks.


----------



## DrLeslieEe (Nov 28, 2020)

So Hercules has turret more and looks like a oversized steroid flower. With the top so thick and heavy, he’s barely keeping his eyes open. Almost too funny.


----------



## Guldal (Nov 28, 2020)

Could you take an in toto pic with the now turreted Hercules and the plant, so he can be enjoyed in all his glorious glory!


----------



## DrLeslieEe (Nov 28, 2020)

Here is the ToTo lol:


----------



## Guldal (Nov 28, 2020)

Thank you - and gorgeous he is. 

I think my spic. carries through - left is one old growth and a well grown new one! But no reason not to pray to the orchid deities for redemption!


----------



## DrLeslieEe (Nov 28, 2020)

Guldal said:


> Thank you - and gorgeous he is.
> 
> I think my spic. carries through - left is one old growth and a well grown new one! But no reason not to pray to the orchid deities for redemption!


Your new growth will bloom! Let’s us nod our heads and pray to the orchid deities. 

Hercules has another large maturing growth and 2 baby growths. He had a mishap after last year’s blooming where the center started a rot. Luckily I saw and removed it. Then repotted in new mix. It saved me from crying the orchid woes. Phew!


----------

