# Imidacloprid Products



## Happypaphy7 (Dec 6, 2016)

So, I went to a garden center in Brooklyn and they had what I was looking for in Manhattan store that no longer carries them.

It is a granular form with 0.22%. The product is mainly for potted houseplant and it says it protects up to 8 weeks. It doesn't say anything about fertilizers mixed it, but it does claim it helps with strong roots and growth on the front label. I've read a paper that studied tomatoes and cucumber with different dilution of immidacloprid, and it said even the lowest recommended amount cause toxicity (showed up in one week after application) in the form of mineral deficiency. I believe it said immidacloprid can interfere with either metabolism or uptake of certain minerals (I think it was Mn and Co).

I don't like this product because most of it just went straight down to the saucer when watered. It is meant for plants in dirt or soil for best results I think, although I did soak my orchids in water and this granular stuff for a while, so hopefully it took up some. 

I also got a left over from a friend. This is labled Tree N Shrub and with 1.47%. It is meant for outdoor use only it says, and it is good for up to one year. 

I used up that bottle and wanted to get one more online. and there were a lot more products than I thought. 
Merit WP was significantly higher in content, I think 75%.
I believe it is meant for foliar application, since that use seem to use higher concentration. not sure.

So, this lead me to wonder why on a few things. 
How come 0.22% one last up to two months while 1.47 can last up to one year inside a plant?? 

From what I read, this product is supposed to be used as a foliar spray or soil drench outdoor or soil in pot. For soil use, it is supposed to be taken up by the plant slowly over some time. Big trees may take a few weeks to a couple of months it says. 
So I wonder if my orchids would have taken enough for single soak, or would I need to repeat this process more since they are not in soil but in very open mix?? I hope to give at least one regular watering before applying again and see if any phytotoxicity develops in any of them. 

Oh, one more questions, none of the targeted insects listed on the lable mentions mites. I wonder mites are somehow immune to it?
I wonder how this is. It says it is very toxic to other animals with no backbones, and mildy toxic and possible carcinogen for humans and mammals.


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## abax (Dec 6, 2016)

I've tried bayer products that have imid. and never been
impressed at all...inside the greenhouse and outside on
roses. I've talked to other orchid growers who use Merit with some success, but it seems never to last very long.
When I use an insecticide product, I want it to work and
never use it any more than absolutely necessary. Imid.
doesn't seem to have that property for me. Orthene does.
In addition, I drench every plant throughly as soon as I receive
it. I haven't had any kind of infestation in years.


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## Happypaphy7 (Dec 7, 2016)

Hmmm that worries me. I wonder why though. perhaps the bugs you had were already immune populations to immidacloprid.

I can't use orthene because you said it stinks like crazy for a good week.
All my plants are in the bedroom.


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## Ray (Dec 7, 2016)

This is only a semi-educated guess, but the "up to one year" of efficacy is for woody plants, so maybe they generally retain the metabolites that have the insecticidal properties longer.

I have used the 1.47% product on orchids in the past at one ounce per gallon, but always apply that three times at one-week intervals. I have stopped using it altogether as imidicloprid is a neonicitinoid, which has been implicated in the demise of bees.


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## NYEric (Dec 7, 2016)

Stop being a Wuss! I'm making a batch of insecticide up for a friend and I'll make a bottle for you. I heard increased moisture works against mites.


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## cnycharles (Dec 7, 2016)

If you never have bees in your greenhouse or room, you have no fear of using neo's. Merit is designed for pots, it and others will go through an orchid pot. Ive heard others suggest liquefying a bit and running all into a pot until used up?

When mites are exposed to imidacloprid, I've heard, the population quickly goes up


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## RandyT (Dec 7, 2016)

There are 2 general forms of imidacloprid. A granular form that is meant to be sprinkled in a pot and watered in. You usually see this as Marathon. The second is a powder or liquid (and I suppose someone may have created a pelletized form as the powder is extremely fine and blows around) that is mixed with water and watered around the plant. You commonlly see this form as Merit or Bayer's 3 in 1 or a similar product. Imidachlorprid and all the "neonics" are extremely water soluble so allowing the water to run out of the pot is a no-no. It is recommended to water extremely carefully for 2 weeks, by then, the chemical should have been taken up the plant. It is not the easiest chemical to use on orchids with very porous media.

When used as a foliar spray, it is used as a contact killer and can have translaminar effects (goes from the top surface of the leaf to the bottom.) Notice I say it "can" not it will. Depends on plant. To be systemic, it must go thru the roots. Most neonics are mobile only upward thru the plant through the xylem. So xylem will transport water, nutrients, chemicals, etc. from the roots to the crown, but not from the crown to the roots.

Tristar, one of the new neonics, is mobile both up and down the plant and it is recommended only as a spray. It is supposed to be mobile in both the xylem and phloem.

Neonics are ineffective on mites. It is recommended to use it only twice in a row before rotating out to another class of chemicals. 

They've been seeing over 1 year of control with Merit as a tree injection, but that's another whole can of worms.


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## Ozpaph (Dec 7, 2016)

that's useful Randy.


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## Happypaphy7 (Dec 7, 2016)

Ray said:


> This is only a semi-educated guess, but the "up to one year" of efficacy is for woody plants, so maybe they generally retain the metabolites that have the insecticidal properties longer.
> 
> I have used the 1.47% product on orchids in the past at one ounce per gallon, but always apply that three times at one-week intervals. I have stopped using it altogether as imidicloprid is a neonicitinoid, which has been implicated in the demise of bees.



I was thinking that I would buy this bottle (since I ran out) and reapply a couple more times to make sure the plants take up enough of this chemical.

but reading Angela's comments sort of discourages me.

Regarding bees, yes, isn't it direct spray that kills or negatively affects bees?
I read about colony collapse syndrome and bees sort of wander around and die, although many were dead inside the beehive.

Anyways, so what do you use now to combat pests??


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## Happypaphy7 (Dec 7, 2016)

NYEric said:


> Stop being a Wuss! I'm making a batch of insecticide up for a friend and I'll make a bottle for you. I heard increased moisture works against mites.



Hey, if you hear about some sad stories of others, you would think twice about it.

Getting sick is never a good thing, not especially in USA.


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## Happypaphy7 (Dec 7, 2016)

cnycharles said:


> If you never have bees in your greenhouse or room, you have no fear of using neo's. Merit is designed for pots, it and others will go through an orchid pot. Ive heard others suggest liquefying a bit and running all into a pot until used up?
> 
> When mites are exposed to imidacloprid, I've heard, the population quickly goes up
> 
> ...



People I know who spray in their greenhouse wear the whole protective gear, head to toe. 

I wonder what makes the bug population pops. 
Someone said the same about mealy bugs which are supposed to be killed or controlled by the treatment. I wonder if these are even real??


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## abax (Dec 7, 2016)

Happy, Orthene doesn't smell worse than imid. products and I hope I didn't say a week. I'd say a couple of days
the smell is detectable not overwhelming. Here is the
thing for me: one use and the bugs are gone, no spraying all over the place, just a through drench and
done. I've even used it as a first knock-down on bush
snails while I waited for an order of metaldehyde. (sp?).
It worked quite well. Surprised even me!


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## Happypaphy7 (Dec 7, 2016)

Hmm ok. 
Immiacloprid had very little scent to my nose, and only the concentrate close to my nose. Once diluted with water, I could smell anything. 
Maybe you smelled Merit which is 75% ??


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## NYEric (Dec 8, 2016)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K780NXS_WKs
Merit, the force is strong!


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## Erythrone (Dec 8, 2016)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Regarding bees, yes, isn't it direct spray that kills or negatively affects bees?
> I read about colony collapse syndrome and bees sort of wander around and die, although many were dead inside the beehive.



Nope... Systemic pesticides can affect bees even when applied in the soil... The toxic effect is IN the plant, that's why such pesticides are so helpfull. 

http://www.extension.umn.edu/garden...ees-beneficial-insects-systemic-insecticides/

BTW I read a paper recently about bees "poisoining" after drinking water from puddles of water in the fied

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0108443


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## Happypaphy7 (Dec 9, 2016)

Yikes! 

I feel bad.


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## cnycharles (Dec 11, 2016)

Happypaphy7 said:


> People I know who spray in their greenhouse wear the whole protective gear, head to toe.
> 
> 
> 
> ?




The discussion about neonics, is if they are safe or not for bees. If you have no bees in your house neonics are not an issue because no bees can be harmed. 

Nobody would be wise to apply chemicals anywhere without adequate safety protection

Studies have shown bees harmed by direct spray contact and contacting pollen or nectar sources later. Also not widely discussed but personally observed were bumblebees affected by touching flowers on drenched plants. Bumblebees I've read do more pollinating of American crops, nurseries etc so could be more of a negative even than honeybees


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## Happypaphy7 (Dec 11, 2016)

I know, but didn't know nectar will contain the stuff as well?
What about the honey we eat??? 

Back to bees, yes, it's a tragedy! 
Hopefully it'll be all banned and bees will thrive again.


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## cnycharles (Dec 12, 2016)

I've heard if you find a tree with wild honey you're not supposed to eat it. I don't know how anyone would know if honey were safe or not, good question


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## gonewild (Dec 12, 2016)

cnycharles said:


> I've heard if you find a tree with wild honey you're not supposed to eat it.



Said the beekeeper.


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## Paph_LdyMacBeth (Dec 14, 2016)

Just as a note imidocloprid has been shown to increase reproduction rates in certain mites. I can't find the article right now.
But it's definitely something to watch for.


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