# Temperatures



## Stone (Nov 20, 2011)

Another question that has probably been covered before.

Do you keep your whole growing area a uniform temp. if so. what is your minimum winter night temp.

Or--- if not, what minimums do you hold for: (mid winter night)

Nth.Vietnam/Sth China sp.
Indian/Burmese sp.
niveum/godfroyae etc.
delenatii
Borneo/Sumatra sp.


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## Shiva (Nov 20, 2011)

Could you be more precise as context? What kind of plants?


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## paphioboy (Nov 20, 2011)

I grow outdoors in a tropical lowland climate. Maximum 35 degrees Celsius, minimum about 25 degrees Celsius. There is no winter


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## Rick (Nov 20, 2011)

In general I try not to let the GH get below 58F for night lows in winter. If its cloudy and cold it may not clear 70 during winter days. Summer uses lots of cooling energy for the wet pad and fogger. I try to keep it down to the high 80's during the day and may drop into the mid high 70's at night on those really hot muggy days.

Those are temps in the upper 3rd of the GH and away from the wet pads. There are liable to be cooler spots near the shaded end in front of the wet pad.


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## Stone (Nov 20, 2011)

Shiva said:


> Could you be more precise as context? What kind of plants?



Sorry I don't uderstand your question


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## Stone (Nov 20, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> I grow outdoors in a tropical lowland climate. Maximum 35 degrees Celsius, minimum about 25 degrees Celsius. There is no winter



Do you have success with high altitude species?


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## Stone (Nov 20, 2011)

Rick said:


> In general I try not to let the GH get below 58F for night lows in winter. If its cloudy and cold it may not clear 70 during winter days. Summer uses lots of cooling energy for the wet pad and fogger. I try to keep it down to the high 80's during the day and may drop into the mid high 70's at night on those really hot muggy days.
> 
> Those are temps in the upper 3rd of the GH and away from the wet pads. There are liable to be cooler spots near the shaded end in front of the wet pad.



That sounds almost exactly the same as I get in winter, I'm just concerned that it is too low for some. (del, niv, sand, stonei )


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## Erythrone (Nov 20, 2011)

Too low for delenatii?


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## emydura (Nov 20, 2011)

There would be a bit of variation in the glasshouse but the thermostat is set for a minimum of 16oC. The big problem I find is that the maximums don't get hot enough. Really they should be 10oC hotter than the minimums but I would never get close to that in winter. On some days there would be no difference.

David


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## Stone (Nov 20, 2011)

Erythrone said:


> Too low for delenatii?



I was looking at Tanaka's site and he recommends high minimums for delenatii (18-20c) He says some people complain that thier plants lose lower leaves and get smaller every year and attributes this to low temps and dryness.
I don't know, I only have a few young plants and I'm keeping them warm until they're a bit bigger.


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## Rick (Nov 20, 2011)

Stone said:


> That sounds almost exactly the same as I get in winter, I'm just concerned that it is too low for some. (del, niv, sand, stonei )



I haven't had any problem with the multi's. I think my temp shortcoming is that I don't get it cold enough in the winter to really make micranthum and armeniacum as happy as they could be.


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## Stone (Nov 20, 2011)

emydura said:


> There would be a bit of variation in the glasshouse but the thermostat is set for a minimum of 16oC. The big problem I find is that the maximums don't get hot enough. Really they should be 10oC hotter than the minimums but I would never get close to that in winter. On some days there would be no difference.
> 
> David



You are up against it in Canberra during winter! I agree that a good rise in temp during the day is just as important but sometimes so difficult to achieve.


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## Stone (Nov 20, 2011)

Rick said:


> I haven't had any problem with the multi's. I think my temp shortcoming is that I don't get it cold enough in the winter to really make micranthum and armeniacum as happy as they could be.



Could you set up some sort of cold-frame for them or does it get too cold?


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## Rick (Nov 20, 2011)

Stone said:


> Could you set up some sort of cold-frame for them or does it get too cold?



It can get into single digit nights in TN, so I wouldn't trust a cold frame.

Maybe I can find a drafty spot in the GH.


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Nov 20, 2011)

In New York at the moment have the temp set at 55 F both day and night. The sun warms it up some during the day. Some days quite a bit other hardly at all. In another 10 days at the beginning of December I'll move that minimum tempt up to 60 degrees F. and to 66 F during the day. Winter will be hitting us strong in a short time and that fuel oil really gets burning. With me it's a balancing act between the cost of fuel, making the plants happy and staying married. Usually in the summer, there are not too many days that go over 90 in the greenhouse. Most days is stays in the high 80s and cools down into the 70's during the day.


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## Stone (Nov 20, 2011)

Bob in Albany said:


> With me it's a balancing act between the cost of fuel, making the plants happy and staying married


. 

I understand:clap:


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## paphioboy (Nov 20, 2011)

Stone said:


> Do you have success with high altitude species?



I have not tried them, but I know some other growers have successfully rebloomed supposedly 'cool-growing' species like fairrieanum and spicerianum flower in Singapore.


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## Rick (Nov 20, 2011)

Stone said:


> He says some people complain that their plants lose lower leaves and get smaller every year



That was characteristic of mine and several other species in my GH until I dropped K and boosted the Ca/Mg. 

I think delenatii is also big on silicates.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 20, 2011)

I have a room with a glass south facing wall that is separate from my main heating. I keep my cool growers there- parvi's, insigne types and complex. Usually, winter temperatures will drop into the 50's at night, but once it really gets cold, 40's. Rarely its hit the 30's. (Never lost a plant to cold in that room.) Daytimes can get quite warm on sunny days, over 80 except in the depths of winter, but it will still go way up into the 70's. My light garden goes by house temperatures...my thermostat is set at 60 nights, but it rarely drops that cold. Daytime is set at 70. I'd keep it lower, but my wife would complain.....My window greenhouse is in that room, where I have phrags, some multi's, and catts. While the room doesn't get cold, the window greenhouse can get pretty cold. No problems though (except once when I didn't realize that the window was open a crack...and a philipinense, in spike for the first time in almost 20 years, froze.) While my delanatii's are in the warmer room, I keep them outdoors to get a chill before bringing them in.


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## Stone (Nov 20, 2011)

Yes Si is another interesting matter. I wonder if anyone has tested paph leaves for Si levels. I read some plants show great improvement when it's added but others do not. I believe that some sp. grow with bamboo which is high Si content but whether they actually use it.? Probably many other sp. have contact with Si as well.

I read an artical in a Hort mag some time ago which stated one of the benefits observed from adding Si was increased Ca uptake, root health, desease resistance.

I'm not too crazy about whats on offer in the market so I've been using diatomite ''solution''. I grind some in a mortar and pestle until it's as fine as talc and mix this with water. Even after 3 months some of the exteremly fine particles are still suspended (cloudy water). I figure this must have some of the plant available Si that diatomite is supposed to have, so I add this to my liquid feeds. Ph is 7 and ec is very low. Not very scientific but...........


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## Stone (Nov 20, 2011)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> > Usually, winter temperatures will drop into the 50's at night, but once it really gets cold, 40's. Rarely its hit the 30's. (Never lost a plant to cold in that room.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thats good to know. I won't freak so much now when we get a cold snap and I've got delenatii airing off out of it's warm bed.


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## Rick (Nov 20, 2011)

Stone said:


> Yes Si is another interesting matter. I wonder if anyone has tested paph leaves for Si levels. I read some plants show great improvement when it's added but others do not. I believe that some sp. grow with bamboo which is high Si content but whether they actually use it.? Probably many other sp. have contact with Si as well.
> 
> I read an artical in a Hort mag some time ago which stated one of the benefits observed from adding Si was increased Ca uptake, root health, desease resistance.
> 
> I'm not too crazy about whats on offer in the market so I've been using diatomite ''solution''. I grind some in a mortar and pestle until it's as fine as talc and mix this with water. Even after 3 months some of the exteremly fine particles are still suspended (cloudy water). I figure this must have some of the plant available Si that diatomite is supposed to have, so I add this to my liquid feeds. Ph is 7 and ec is very low. Not very scientific but...........



I don't have any data specific to paphs, but the leaf litter data for Sumatra rain forest indicates Si is lower than Ca, but 2-3X higher than K.

Dynagro Protekt has high soluble Si, but with K (essentially a potash solution). I haven't totally ruled out the use of it (to reduce K), but for the time being the plants are really producing some stout crisp leaves, so I think I'm OK for the time being. 

I add some plain old sand to my mixes, but don't know if any of it ever ends up in plants. There is probably some in my well water too, which may be another reason why my plants perked up so much after putting 10% of my well water back into the RO.


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## Bjorn (Nov 21, 2011)

Working in a company producing nano-sized amorphous silica, I have acess to some inhouse results on silicon fertilisation by the means of amongst others Diatomeous earth. Silicon is an often overseen nutritional element, since it is so easy to think that "most of the soil is silica so that supply is plentiful". This is however not true, the reason is of course that its mainly monosilicic acid that is available to the plants and soil composed of crystalline silica like sand(quartz) show very low levels of that monosilicious acid. Further, monosilicic acid is unstable, if too much of the stuff, it starts to polymerize to unavailable polysilicic acid. I would doubt that addition of "Protekt" does anything but covering up the leaf surface with a silica based gel. Ok, that makes a barrier so it may work exellently as a protection against infections, but I doubt that the silica is actually absorbed by the plants. As far as I understand, the product in question (Protekt) is a watery solution of either a potassium silicate or a potassium based "water-glass". In both cases it will be higly alkaline and will produce a silica gel when it gets neutralised. This gel is due to polymerisation of the silicic acids formed during that condensation btw. :evil:So, in principle it may add to Si nutrition if applied at very low rates. On long term however, it will boost the pH upwards.
Addition of Diatomers have however shown positive results to many crops (annuals though) and may result in a higher availability of monosilicic acid. Other effective materials are rice hull ash, and nano-sized amorphous silica.
Silicon deficiency is a problem in intensive agriculture, where the soil gets heavily depleted. I do have my doubts whether that is the situation in orchid growing though. An unexpected side effect of the silicon nutrition seems to be that it boosts available phosphorous. I have not been able to find the mechanism behind that, but it is an interesting observation. I have myself not conducted any experiments on silicon nutrition to my orchids, I have the ingredients, but just have not done anything- yet.
Just for info, in nature the source of monosilicic acid is from decomposing organic matter. Since my mixes normally contain such material (twigs and leafs of oak and other things) I do not expect to see much difference. However as many peple grow in more "artificial" mixes, for some it may be an important nutritional element that is often overseen.


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## Ozpaph (Nov 21, 2011)

Bjorn, thanks for the first hand knowledge. Very interesting.


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## Rick (Nov 21, 2011)

Bjorn said:


> Just for info, in nature the source of monosilicic acid is from decomposing organic matter. Since my mixes normally contain such material (twigs and leafs of oak and other things) I do not expect to see much difference. However as many peple grow in more "artificial" mixes, for some it may be an important nutritional element that is often overseen.



Yes as noted the leaf litter (from mixed evergreen hardwoods in Sumatra) contains a lot of Si.

Grasses in general are very high in Si (which is one reason that horses are continually growing teeth to keep up with abrasive where from silica in grass).

The wetlands plant, horsetail, is also very high in silica.


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## Stone (Nov 21, 2011)

Bjorn;. [QUOTE said:


> Other effective materials are rice hull ash


, 
So apparently is sugar cane but do you have to burn it or could you compost and strain into water?


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## Rick (Nov 21, 2011)

Stone said:


> Bjorn;. said:
> 
> 
> > I would just incorporate some dried plant material in your potting mix.
> ...


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## Stone (Nov 21, 2011)

Just to get back to temps for a sec., Are you folks saying that you can get sanderianum, phillipinense, stonei etc. to grow and flower well with a min. of 60F--16c?


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## Rick (Nov 21, 2011)

Stone said:


> Just to get back to temps for a sec., Are you folks saying that you can get sanderianum, phillipinense, stonei etc. to grow and flower well with a min. of 60F--16c?



Haven't flowered any sanderianum yet, but yes the phillies, stonei grow and bloom fine for me, and sanderianum growing well, and they do periodically get below 60 in my GH.


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## Stone (Nov 21, 2011)

Rick said:


> Haven't flowered any sanderianum yet, but yes the phillies, stonei grow and bloom fine for me, and sanderianum growing well, and they do periodically get below 60 in my GH.



Excellent! I presume you keep the phill. in bright light?


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## emydura (Nov 21, 2011)

Stone said:


> Just to get back to temps for a sec., Are you folks saying that you can get sanderianum, phillipinense, stonei etc. to grow and flower well with a min. of 60F--16c?



I flowered 4 different clones of phillipinense this year at 16oC minimums. I don't have the others.

David


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## Stone (Nov 21, 2011)

emydura said:


> I flowered 4 different clones of phillipinense this year at 16oC minimums. I don't have the others.
> 
> David



Thanks David, I have 2 clones but both young plants...waiting.....


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## Rick (Nov 21, 2011)

Stone said:


> Excellent! I presume you keep the phill. in bright light?



http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11853
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11593
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18949

Here's threads on my stonei and roebellinii from 2009. The roebellinii bloomed in 2010 but not as well as the previous year. I've been getting at least one spike a year from this plant since about 2005. It gets "vanda" light. The stonei was purchased as a small seedling 6 or 7 years ago. It didn't bloom in 2010 but it has a sheath on it now.

I just threw in the thread on last winters exul blooming (since we've been talking about niveum and its found on the same cliffs with niveum). I've had this plant since 2002 and it's bloomed almost every year. Has three or 4 spikes presently.


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## Stone (Nov 21, 2011)

That's supurb! I sometimes wonder why people bother with hybrids when nature can produce things like that.


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## Rick (Nov 21, 2011)

Stone said:


> That's supurb! I sometimes wonder why people bother with hybrids when nature can produce things like that.




That's what I say all the time. Don't miss the exul thread I just added above.


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## emydura (Nov 22, 2011)

Stone said:


> That's supurb! I sometimes wonder why people bother with hybrids when nature can produce things like that.



Hybrid vigour. The hybrids are so much easier to grow and no less impressive. A nice Lady Isabel or PEOY or William Ambler is as good as the species in my opinion and way more vigorous. To grow the species well you need to have your culture close to perfect. With hybrids, you can get away with more. In the end my hybrids tend to look superior than the species as they clump better, have bigger flowers, more flowers and more spikes. That is my experience anyway. 

And then of course there is nothing in nature that looks like a Dollgoldii or Harold Koopowitz.

David


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## Stone (Nov 22, 2011)

emydura said:


> Hybrid vigour. The hybrids are so much easier to grow and no less impressive. A nice Lady Isabel or PEOY or William Ambler is as good as the species in my opinion and way more vigorous. To grow the species well you need to have your culture close to perfect. With hybrids, you can get away with more. In the end my hybrids tend to look superior than the species as they clump better, have bigger flowers, more flowers and more spikes. That is my experience anyway.
> 
> And then of course there is nothing in nature that looks like a Dollgoldii or Harold Koopowitz.
> 
> David



Yes thats all true, but for me, when I look at a hybrid I see something which (for me) has absolutly no botanical value or interest. Its like painting a tropical parrot a different colour just to see what it would look like.
''Please''----- no offence meant to all the hybrid growers. But for me its not just the production of spectacular flowers but the joy of successfully cultivating a life form produced by evolution over millions of years.
That is what REALLY impresses me


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## emydura (Nov 22, 2011)

Stone said:


> Yes thats all true, but for me, when I look at a hybrid I see something which (for me) has absolutly no botanical value or interest. Its like painting a tropical parrot a different colour just to see what it would look like.
> ''Please''----- no offence meant to all the hybrid growers. But for me its not just the production of spectacular flowers but the joy of successfully cultivating a life form produced by evolution over millions of years.
> That is what REALLY impresses me



There are others who just like to grow pretty flowers.  I'd probably have more species than hybrids actually. I'm from an ecological science background, so I would appreciate the species concept more than most. But I'm not precious about it. In anycase, I think after many generations of line breeding, the species start to become a fair way removed from those evolutionary selected populations from the wild.

David


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## Stone (Nov 22, 2011)

Yes line breeding is ok up to a point, after all everyone would prefer to look at a colourful, well-formed flower rather than a deformed miserable looking thing that sometimes come out of habitat. Some of the "best flowers'' though, have come straight out of the wild. No-one has been able to catch up with some of the fantastic Cattleya varieties (dowiana, trianiae etc.) that where found inthe 19th century. I'm sure it's the same for many genera.
I agree that if line breeding is taken too far the result begins to look nothing like the orignal.
This has happened in Oz. with Dend. kingianum. Breeders have mixed up so many varieties and forms for so long that I think it's wrong to call them kingianums any longer.
I haven't seen this so much with paphs yet except maybe spicerianum and callosum?


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## Rick (Nov 22, 2011)

I don't know about the line breeding thing.

I looked up the FCC award stats for a handful of very popular paphs that have been in cultivation for many years (maybe since the late 1800's), and compared the flower element sizes to the taxomomic description in Cribb's book (this is usually based on wild collected flowers).

At the most there was a 20% size difference for some species but there was no obvious general trend that line breeding had produced flowers that were unrecognizable from wild forms.

But we are really veering off the topic of temps.


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## Stone (Nov 22, 2011)

Rick said:


> > But we are really veering off the topic of temps.[/
> 
> 
> 
> I was thinking the same thing. so what about the exul and niveum. They come from an area that probably don't get lower that 20c/65-70f. Won't they suffer mins. of 58-60? Would it help to keep fairly dry over winter and only use warm water for irrigation to hold them over without regression?


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 22, 2011)

I have not found paphs to suffer from low temperatures, as long as they are above freezing. Maybe they'll be slowed down a bit, but not harmed. Worst I ever saw happen was a night when temperatures dropped into the high 30's while some plants were still outdoors. My P. hirsutissimum and Mas. veitchiana both suffered some leaf damage, but my warm growing Brazilian Miltonia's, and a bunch of other plants, were unscathed.


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## Rick (Nov 22, 2011)

Stone said:


> Rick said:
> 
> 
> > I was thinking the same thing. so what about the exul and niveum. They come from an area that probably don't get lower that 20c/65-70f. Won't they suffer mins. of 58-60? Would it help to keep fairly dry over winter and only use warm water for irrigation to hold them over without regression?
> ...


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