# Fertilizing paphs _Help !



## Gilda (Apr 2, 2009)

I have no fancy PH meters(I do have some aquarium PH sticks). I do not understand TDS . EC , Alklanity ,PH etc. Please explain all this in easy to understand language. My head is spinning from reading about all this on the interent.

I have been using tap water(and it PH test strips on the hard side).Yes, we do get buildup in our water heater and coffee pot.

I have been using 20-20-20..1/4 tsp per gal. It stays on the PH hard side after mixing. My paph roots have burnt tips , plants aren't growing. I know I over did the fertilizing thru the winter, but even before that the plants just were not growing...I know paphs are slow but this was SLOW to nil . They have been repotted into a bark mix and I want to know what /how to feed them . HELP !
Thanks !


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## paphioboy (Apr 2, 2009)

I can only give you the definitions of the abbreviations, but I can't help with much else as I'm also not a very technical person when it comes to fertilising orchids..  TDS = total dissolved solids (which is the concentration of salts and otehr minerals in the water). EC = electrical conductivity, a term used to measure the concentration of charged ions in the water. pH is the measure of acidity/alkalinity. The pH scale ranges from 1-14. A neutral substance is one that is neither neutral nor alkali and has a pH value of 7. Acidic substances have pH 1-6 and alkaline substances have pH 8-14. Hope this helps.


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## parvi_17 (Apr 2, 2009)

Paphioboy was spot-on with the definitions. By the way, pH stands for "power of Hydrogen", referring to the activity of H ions in the substance. But that is just trivial .

Hmmm...It sounds to me like you have some really hard water. Although higher pH readings indicate a presence of minerals in the water, TDS is a more precise way to measure this. pH has to do with the availability of nutrients for the plant to take up, and the ease of reproduction for fungi and bacteria. Different plants have different pH preferences. Most Paphs grow well at a neutral pH, and it is a good general rule of thumb to aim for that level. However, you don't really need to worry too much about either TDS or pH (or EC, which is also used to check for mineral concentrations). This just overcomplicates things and all the scientific mumbo-jumbo should be left to the vendors and scientists, I think. We know that your water is too hard because of the way your plants have responded. So basically, over time minerals from that hard water can build up in the mix and this can burn Paph roots. The plants likely won't grow well or respond well to fertilizer when this happens, so that is probably why they are growing slowly. 

The best thing to do in this situation is to flush the pots really well every couple of weeks with pure water, such as rain, RO, distilled. This will help to drain the minerals out and your Paphs should do better. You can also lower the concentration of your fertilizer and do it more often, that should help too. It is generally a good idea for any one who uses tap water to flush with pure water now and then. Some people switch over entirely to pure water, but I don't think that's necessary. I have seen and purchased plants before that have heavy mineral buildup from tap water on their leaves, and they were healthy. The mix just needs to be flushed, and the fertilizer is best done "weakly, weekly".


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Apr 2, 2009)

You can get a "Tap Water Purifier" from any online pet supply place for about $25 or so. Its just a de-ionizer cartridge that hooks up to your faucet. If you only use it for watering orchids, the cartridges should last several months. Much cheaper than RO. Take care, Eric


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## Jimsox (Apr 2, 2009)

Parvi. WOW thank you for that easy explination. You cleared my head up on some issues. Thanks again, Jimi


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## Rick (Apr 2, 2009)

Gilda

I'm on a well in middle TN right in the heart of limestone country. My well water chemistry is basically too salty for use as primary irrigation water. However, Ed Merkle down in Nashville, is on Cumberland River city water, and the TDS levels are about 1/4 of my well water. His plants love the stuff after chlorine removal. So I drag home water from my labs RO system for all my primary irrigation needs.

As mentioned in the good posts above, pH measures acids or bases, but not hardness. Having a fertilizer pH in the 7-8 range is not likely an issue to your plants. It may actually help a bit since bark mixes acidify the water as it travels through the pot. So a mildly alkaline mix will help buffer the potting mix, and help prevent it from getting acidic too fast.

However if the TDS of your irrigation water is high (you might get a handle on this from measuring hardness, but conductivity is the best way), you would see the problems you mention.

You also didn't mention how much fertilizer you are using, which during winter I cut back to about 1/4 of what I use during the summer.


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## Gilda (Apr 2, 2009)

Thanks for all the help guys ! Your the BEST ! The mumbo jumbo was what I couldn't figure out . Thanks Parvi for the clarification.

Eric, thanks for the heads up on the water purifier !

I have requested a water quality report from my water dept., but I don't think it will tell me much other than maybe my TDS. I will give you a report when I receive it.

These paphs have been in semi hydro, *and I am switching them to a bark mix.* Hopefully some will recover. 1/4 tsp per gal. is what I used. Rick, the wardii babies are doing great, but they have been in a bark mix since I received them. I unpotted the smallest and his roots were fine.

I am gulity of not flushing the pots regulary, but that has changed ! I also loved them thru the winter too much, that will change also.:wink: Any other thoughts please advise !
Thanks again !


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## Heather (Apr 3, 2009)

Gilda, have you searched on pH here? There was a LONG thread back when I had this question and Rick gave a lot of useful information, as did others.

Edit: actually water quality was a better term to search on. I turned up quite a few threads, you might try that.


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## Ernie (Apr 3, 2009)

Gilda,

Looks like everyone else took care of you. Your plants should respond favorably to a good clean-up and repotting regardless of what you put them in. Yes, not flushing regularly will lead to a slow demise regardless of if you're in bark or SH. I can't stress enough the importance of at least a monthly DRENCH for root health (Ray B's "fire hose method"- love the term). Every watering is even better. For folks under lights (are you?), it's difficult to go nuts with a water wand, but ya gotta try. I find that SH somewhat helps this case, because you can fill the pot to the top easily and each nook and cranny gets wet then drains. Plants in regular pots, especially big, husky multigrowth Paphs, seem to get problems because the plant might cover up a good bit of the surface of the pot and dribbling water on the pot doesn't get the whole thing wet (the leaves shield it). 
I'd typically recommend folks using HARD irrigation water to grow a little on the moist side and go easy on fertilizers. Why grow moist? If the salts in your water remain in SOLUTION and don't dry up on your roots, you're less likely to see root damage. If you have hard water and your media dries completely, the salts (crap in your water) will accumulate in the media and on your roots causing burn. Growing moist will also mean modifications to other aspects of your culture- most significantly, you'll probably want to pot in a more open mix or put "crock" in the bottom of your pots, and you'll want to increase air movement and prevent nights from getting too cool (or provide bottom heat). 

-Ernie


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## goldenrose (Apr 3, 2009)

Gilda - when I read your post I said that sounds like me 7 years ago! What turned things around in a BIG way for my plants? I started collecting rainwater! Sometimes it's a pain hauling 5 gal. buckets but well worth it! I did invest in a TDS meter & if rainwater is getting scarce I'll mix it with my hard well water & start the rain dance!


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## Leo Schordje (Apr 3, 2009)

Ed M is near you in TN, you might contact him for advice. 

I want to emphasize Ernie's post - you really can compensate for hard water by growing wetter. It have seen beautiful orchids grown using water so hard fish bounce twice before going under.  

Also read the references on www.ladyslipper.com and on Ray B's wensite First Rays. 

Third - I have been using MSU fertilizer for 5 years now and won't change to anything else. Try it. Available from Oak Hill Gardens in 2 pound packages, or from GreenCare in 25 pound bags.


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## Rick (Apr 3, 2009)

Ed M gave a great talk to our orchid society in Nashville on fertilizing too, so he is a great contact.

Also what is your air humidity level at present.

If it's been dropping down in the 50% or lower range that dessicates pots very quickly and will cause salt concentration in the pots.

With winter heating systems and north winds, I used to experience 20-30% humidity levels around the plants and saw the same results. Trying to compensate by watering more often caused root rot rather than root growth, but boosting air humidity into the 70%+ range helped dramatically.


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## Gilda (Apr 3, 2009)

Thanks agin giys & (gals) for the info.
Ernie,
I grow under flourecents and in a sunroom. Air movement, hubby says we live in a wind tunnel...fans blow 24/7. I did water thoroughly each time(with fertilizer water and thought that was flushing the semi hydro pot. I *never* just filled the reservoir.

Rick, 
my humidity is always 55 to 60% +..very seldom goes below that. Right now it is 68%. I have to run a dehumidifer in the winter or I get too much condensation on the windows.

Leo, 
Too funny about the fish bouncing twice in hard water. Growing wet, I thought it can't get much wetter than semi hydro ? I was thinking I should have grown drier during the winter, even though my temps don't go below 67 in the grow room ? I have read and re-read Antecs and Rays info on watering/fertilizing, and that is when my head started spinning... I even printed off some for easy reference.

I feel like I am getting a heads up on all this ! Keep the help coming !


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## Clark (Apr 3, 2009)

Gilda said:


> I have to run a dehumidifer in the winter or I get too much condensation on the windows.



I use the water from the dehumidifier (located in basement) for my
orchids and CPs.


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## Renegayde (Apr 3, 2009)

I just got some MSU Tap water fertilizer and Oyster Flour from Kelley's today so it should be interesting to see what difference it makes....btw....any recommendations on how much oyster flour to use? I first thought about mixing some in with the potting medium as I repot but I do not know if this is a good idea

Todd


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## Gilda (Apr 3, 2009)

Clark Edward said:


> I use the water from the dehumidifier (located in basement) for my
> orchids and CPs.



Duh...why haven't I thought of that ! Instead of draining outside I can collect it and use it through the winter !


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## SlipperFan (Apr 3, 2009)

Gilda said:


> Duh...why haven't I thought of that ! Instead of draining outside I can collect it and use it through the winter !



Be careful -- I've seen some pretty slimy humidifier water.


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## Ernie (Apr 3, 2009)

Rick said:


> Trying to compensate by watering more often caused root rot rather than root growth, but boosting air humidity into the 70%+ range helped dramatically.



Yes, growing wetter will rot roots, so it takes a lot of forethought if using organic media. The most important thing from all of these suggestions is that ALL growing conditions are altered by a simple change to one. 

-Ernie


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## Leo Schordje (Apr 3, 2009)

When you grow wetter - you have to make sure your media breathes - I use hardware cloth screens to eliminate fines which would plug up the air voids. With good air voids - it is safer to run wetter.


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## goldenrose (Apr 4, 2009)

Renegayde said:


> I just got some MSU Tap water fertilizer and Oyster Flour from Kelley's today so it should be interesting to see what difference it makes....btw....any recommendations on how much oyster flour to use? I first thought about mixing some in with the potting medium as I repot but I do not know if this is a good idea Todd


Haven't heard of oyster flour, do they grind it fine & charge lots for it? I certainly would mix it into the potting medium, don't see anything wrong with that.


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## SlipperFan (Apr 4, 2009)

Gilda, it sounds like you might be running into the same problem I had with my Phrags growing in S/H -- after two years of apparently doing very well, they started to decline. Although some suggested it was because I wasn't flushing the pots, looking back, I think it may have been that the roots took over the air spaces between the Prime Agra pellets, and they couldn't breathe anymore. I hadn't repotted for over 2 years, so maybe it was as simple as that. I used rainwater and MSU fertilizer, BTW.


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## Gilda (Apr 4, 2009)

SlipperFan said:


> I think it may have been that the roots took over the air spaces between the Prime Agra pellets, and they couldn't breathe anymore. I hadn't repotted for over 2 years, so maybe it was as simple as that. I used rainwater and MSU fertilizer, BTW.



Dot,
I wish my problem was roots taking up air space...what I am finding is rotten roots or good roots with black tips, a sure sign of fertilizer salt burn from me not flushing the pots and also not having good water/fertilizer combo. 

I have a doz or so of my mature paphs that have good roots or what I can see through the pot seems to be good. I thought I might leave them as is (in semi hydro)but after what I am seeing, I think they will get a once over(dumped pot for inspection) too, and make my decision after I see what is in the pot.
Thanks !


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## Corbin (Apr 4, 2009)

"It is generally a good idea for any one who uses tap water to flush with pure water now and then." parvi 

"His plants love the stuff after chlorine removal" Rick

I have put a couple quotes in here to start as I have questions about them. I have a small collection so I take my plants to the sink and realy run the water through the pots for three or four minutes each pot. I do this because I grow in medium bark mix (for the most part) and I find that if I don't do this they are dry in 24 hrs. If I know that I am not going to be able to get to them for several days I will soak them in small pots with the water up to the top of the bark for 20 or 30 minutes. It would take many many gallons of water in jugs to wet them like I do under the tap. My water in Atlanta had a uS/cm of 10 and the water here in Johnstown has a uS/cm of 30 so relatively pure in both cases. 

Now the questions. Would I really see much of a difference if I used pure water? What is the chlorine doing to my plants?


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## Corbin (Apr 4, 2009)

I used to adjust the pH of my fertilizer water but then I got to thinking. When I am all finished watering and fertilizing 90% or better of the water that went in the pot was straight out of the faucet so what good did it do to adjust the pH of that last little bit of water/fertilizer water. I have basically quit taking the time to adjust the pH of the fertilizer solution. My water right out of the tap has a pH of about 7.8 and after adding fertilizer it is about 5.8.

I use a heaping 1/2 tsp. of MSU RO fertilizer and a teaspoon of Epson salts at each watering.

Comments / thoughts please.


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## cnycharles (Apr 5, 2009)

it can be confusing comparing pH of water/fertilizer going into the pot and reading what the 'potential acidity or basicity' of the fertilizer is on the bag; for example a chelated plug feed 13-2-13 has a decent potential basicity but out of the hose the pH is pretty low. after the plant takes up the fertilizer, the pH can rise. now does the low pH negatively affect some plants, all plants or no plants in the meantime while the roots are in contact with the new fertilizer that has very low pH? that's something I'd love to hear about from someone, especially in regards to mounted plants. often the potential acidity/basicity levels are in regards to plants in soil or peat-based soilless media, and I don't know how it would be different in other organic, inorganic or mount based potting systems


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## Rick (Apr 5, 2009)

Corbin said:


> I used to adjust the pH of my fertilizer water but then I got to thinking. When I am all finished watering and fertilizing 90% or better of the water that went in the pot was straight out of the faucet so what good did it do to adjust the pH of that last little bit of water/fertilizer water. I have basically quit taking the time to adjust the pH of the fertilizer solution. My water right out of the tap has a pH of about 7.8 and after adding fertilizer it is about 5.8.
> 
> I use a heaping 1/2 tsp. of MSU RO fertilizer and a teaspoon of Epson salts at each watering.
> 
> Comments / thoughts please.


I've ended up kind of in a similar pattern. I set up MSU in RO water. It would normally end up with a pH lower than 5, and then I add Superthrive or Keiki Pro. When I add ST it drops the pH to <4, so I add some Protek to get it back up to about 6. When I add Keiki pro the pH comes out to about 6 to 6.5 so I do no further adjustments.

I used to play with pH of fert mixes allot more, depending on the type of paph they were, but now I add more or less buffer (sand/oystershell/bonemeal, etc.) to the potting mix instead, and leave the pH of the fert mix at high 5's to low 6's.

With regards to chlorine, Nashville runs allot of chlorine (often >3ppm) and you can smell it off the tap. Ed M and Tom Harper(an AOS judge who grows fantastic phals) saw big improvements in overall growth when they removed the chlorine from the tap water for their regular irrigation. They either use carbon or one of those magic silver substrate filters (or both). Kind of like a Brita filter.


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## SlipperFan (Apr 5, 2009)

Interesting that some people advocate the use of an occasional watering with a 1% chlorine bleach solution, both for algae control and control of fungus gnats.


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## NYEric (Apr 5, 2009)

Sounds a little extreme to me!


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## Rick (Apr 6, 2009)

SlipperFan said:


> Interesting that some people advocate the use of an occasional watering with a 1% chlorine bleach solution, both for algae control and control of fungus gnats.



Big difference (I hope) between occasionally and daily.

1% btw = 10,000ppm which is definitely toxic to just about anything.

It takes less than 1ppm to kill fish. 3-5 ppm is about swimming pool levels. Obviously there are strains of bacteria and algae that are resistant to this level of chlorine, and they are not generally beneficial strains.

Chlorine gets "used up" by organic matter, and going through potting mixes with charcoal usually is pretty good about taking out low doses, but chronic use at 3ppm seems to be adverse to good results. I expect you definitely get a buildup of resistant strains of pathogenic bacteria.


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## Ray (Apr 10, 2009)

The recommendation I've heard and made was one ounce per gallon (0.78%) of liquid chlorine bleach, which is about 0.05% sodium hypochlorite in the first place, so even at 1% you're looking at 500 ppm active ingredient.

I used it for for years, but prefer the smell of Physan to the bleach.


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