# Cattleya lueddemanniana coerulea venosa



## monocotman (Aug 24, 2020)

Morning,
Another plant flowering for the first time on a less than fully established division. I can see the coerulea bit but the venosa part hasn’t developed. Not sure it will on this flower Venosa give a ‘veined’ look to the petals and sepals. It’s pretty uncommon.
Dr Leslie,, would you care to comment? Is venosa something that can come and go in cattleyas like flaring on the petals?


David


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## DrLeslieEe (Aug 24, 2020)

David, the venosa patterns doesn’t appear all the time. Sometimes it may take a few days to develop. 

Other times, the flower is label incorrectly as venosa when it’s lightly veined at edges (which is normal in some pure coerulea flowers). 

So in this case you might have to wait a few more days or see the next flowering on a stronger plant. Hope this helps.


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## monocotman (Aug 24, 2020)

Many thanks Leslie!
fingers crossed!


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## Ozpaph (Aug 24, 2020)

i learn everyday!


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## Guldal (Aug 24, 2020)

Very lovely lip....keep us posted, where the rest are going, David!


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## DrLeslieEe (Aug 24, 2020)

Here’s my lueddemaniana coerulea venosa from Orquidário Americana in Brazil: 




You can see clearly the ‘blue’ veins running throughout the flower from tip of petals and sepals to the base of floral parts. 









Orquidário Americana


Referência mundial no cultivo de espécies e orquídeas especiais para coleção Atuação assídua em... Rua Antônio Cia, nº 540, 13477450 Americana, SP, Brazil




www.facebook.com


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## monocotman (Aug 25, 2020)

That is stunning! Thanks.


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## setaylien (Aug 25, 2020)

DrLeslieEe said:


> Here’s my lueddemaniana coerulea venosa from Orquidário Americana in Brazil:
> 
> View attachment 21889
> 
> ...


In the photo the veins look more pink than blue, at least to my eyes. The form is really good!


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## monocotman (Aug 27, 2020)

We now have veins!
Maybe not as good as Dr Leslie’s plant but it’s a start. They may continue to develop.


David


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## DrLeslieEe (Aug 27, 2020)

There you have it! Shape will improve as plant gets stronger within the next two years.


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## monocotman (Aug 27, 2020)

Thanks. I’m very pleased that it has flowered true to the label. The vendor has since retired. These things are as rare as hens teeth in Europe. It’s the only one I’ve ever seen offered for sale.


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## DrLeslieEe (Aug 27, 2020)

Too bad you are across the big ocean, because I have many great plants I can divide to sell or backup in UK with an excellent grower like yourself.


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## monocotman (Aug 27, 2020)

How annoying! Never mind. My windowsills are full and although I’m thinking about a new greenhouse come garden room I’m not there yet.
Do you know anything about the genetics of the venosa type? Is it something that occurs in a proportion of coeruleas or has it to be bred in?


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## Guldal (Aug 28, 2020)

monocotman said:


> We now have veins!
> Maybe not as good as Dr Leslie’s plant but it’s a start. They may continue to develop.



Your veins look great to me, David!  

And by the way, you and Leslie have now lured me into the dangerous quackmire of Cattleyas  So far the plants grow and seem to thrive...now we just have to find out, whether I can make them flower?!


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## monocotman (Aug 28, 2020)

That’s great news! If they’re growing but not flowering then they are either too small to flower or not receiving enough light. Have you managed to track down a copy of the Chadwick‘s classic cattleyas?


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## DrLeslieEe (Aug 29, 2020)

monocotman said:


> How annoying! Never mind. My windowsills are full and although I’m thinking about a new greenhouse come garden room I’m not there yet.
> Do you know anything about the genetics of the venosa type? Is it something that occurs in a proportion of coeruleas or has it to be bred in?


The 'blue' venosa markings were inherent in wild plants like 'Siquie Siquie' and 'Mariauxi', both fantastically shaped lueddemanniana coeruleas that were used to breed the modern blues. The depth and coverage of the lines vary across the breeding lines, and were not the focus, but rather the shape and size of the flowers were the top priorities. Eventually there were cultivars like 'Adoriana', 'Canaima Friend' and 'Veronica' that were selected with distinct veins. Today, the best coerulea color is created by these veins that are very fine across the flower like the ones below, all bred and grown by Orquidaro Americana in Brazil.


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## DrLeslieEe (Aug 29, 2020)

Below are all lueddemaniana coeruleas, even though they look pinkish in some photos.


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## Guldal (Aug 29, 2020)

monocotman said:


> That’s great news! If they’re growing but not flowering then they are either too small to flower or not receiving enough light. Have you managed to track down a copy of the Chadwick‘s classic cattleyas?


I have indeed got hold of a used (but completely as new) copy of Chadwick & Chadwick and it's a great read, informative as well as entertaining! 
My Catt-interest is so new, that I find it advisable to wait judging on or changing anything culture wise, before we are through one-two growth seasons...I was just elated to see some newly acquired and repotted Catts sending out new shoots, e.g. C. bowringiana presenting 4-5 new growths!
And on your recommendation, David, I've bought a nice set of Catt/Laelia young plants, that Hilmar Bauch from Assendorf offered for sale on ebay + a few additional plants!


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## monocotman (Aug 29, 2020)

The veins continue to develop in this flower!
Dr Leslie, thanks for all the information. Those blooms are amazing. Perfection.
I’ve seen photos of the amazing quality of those coerulea lueddemannianas from the wild. Armando Mantellini comments on ‘mariauxi’ on his new website. 
I bought what is supposed to be a division of mariauxi from a German vendor last year but so far no flowers although it’s growing well. When I see Armando offering this clone for 1500 dollars, I am very unsure that it is correct!
Guldal, glad to see you’ve started on the cattleya road. For me the biggest learning issue was watering. After paphs and phrags, catts are so different. If in doubt, don’t water. They need a very definite wet dry cycle otherwise the roots rot. The species are more sensitive than the hybrids. I learned with hybrids but now the collection is moving over into the unifoliates species.


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## southernbelle (Aug 29, 2020)

monocotman said:


> Morning,
> Another plant flowering for the first time on a less than fully established division. I can see the coerulea bit but the venosa part hasn’t developed. Not sure it will on this flower Venosa give a ‘veined’ look to the petals and sepals. It’s pretty uncommon.
> Dr Leslie,, would you care to comment? Is venosa something that can come and go in cattleyas like flaring on the petals?
> View attachment 21878
> ...


Very lovely color.


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## Guldal (Sep 2, 2020)

monocotman said:


> now the collection is moving over into the unifoliates species.



Doesn't this need some further qualification, as in specialities and rarieties also?!


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## monocotman (Sep 2, 2020)

Guldal,
I can send you a list of plants I’m growing.
It’s a combination of selected clones and seedlings.
The species are the usual large flowered species including labiata, lueddemanniana, mossiae, warscewiczii, trianae, jenmanii, gaskelliana.
When you get into this world there are so many to chose from! You could have a greenhouse full of plants of a single species and everyone would be different!
David


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## monocotman (Sep 2, 2020)

Oh and let’s not forget cattleya/laelia purpurata!


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## Guldal (Sep 3, 2020)

monocotman said:


> Oh and let’s not forget cattleya/laelia purpurata!


No, no reason to forget that one! I just bought a relatively large and well grown clone of purpurata var. vinicolor from the chairman of our local orchid society. Can't wait to see it bloom!


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## Guldal (Sep 3, 2020)

monocotman said:


> The species are the usual large flowered species including labiata, lueddemanniana, mossiae, warscewiczii, trianae, jenmanii, gaskelliana.
> When you get into this world there are so many to chose from! You could have a greenhouse full of plants of a single species and everyone would be different!



What happened to percivaliana?!


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## monocotman (Sep 3, 2020)

It’s not my favourite as the scent is a bit weird. All the others have scents that vary between good and amazing. I always look for scent in a plant and it can vary quite a bit between clones of the same species. Saying that I do have a good named alba clone but it did arrive as a freebie.


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## monocotman (Sep 3, 2020)

I’m finding purpurata to be a really vigorous grower when mature. Good luck with yours.


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## Guldal (Sep 4, 2020)

monocotman said:


> I’m finding purpurata to be a really vigorous grower when mature. Good luck with yours.


Thank you, David!


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## Guldal (Sep 4, 2020)

monocotman said:


> I can send you a list of plants I’m growing.
> It’s a combination of selected clones and seedlings.



Yes, please!

And, by the way, David, I'm always up for a division, if you have a compact growing clone of a species or two to spare?  But we might have to hurry up before (the hard) Brexit is done! 

Kind regards, Jens


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## DrLeslieEe (Sep 4, 2020)

It is true that percivaliana has a very different distinctive scent that may insult some noses lol. To me it’s like a natural cough medicine of sorts... or crush insects (ewwww).

To its credit, it has several charming traits:

1. it blooms in time for Xmas
2. It has very full round shape naturally
3. It has very small footprint and tight small growths
4. it is one of the easiest species to grow
5. it breaks multiple leads easily

For these qualities, I highly recommend this species to everyone !


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## monocotman (Sep 5, 2020)

Guldal

List of catts

Species

bowringiana var splendens

dormanniana var Dark knight x self

gaskelliana (dark)
gaskelliana alba (fine var- Petrens)
gaskelliana var blue dragon

jenmanii var coerulea 'cruzana'
jenmanii alba x self
jenmanii alba ‘Fuchs snow’

labiata var amesiana (Orquis x Marcia Regina)
labiata var semi alba (Antonio Paccione x cooksoniae)
labiata var semi alba (Ice Palace x Snow Queen) 
labiata var semi alba (Strauß)
labiata var Rubra (schuller x?)
labiata var alba ‘Angerer’
labiata var ‘Emilia’
labiata var flamea ‘RS6’
labiata var coerulea ‘natural world’ x self


lueddemaniana 'pale' (fine var)
lueddemanniana var dark
lueddemanniana var splash labio solido
lueddemanniana var Cesar Fernandez
lueddemanniana var Sarita
lueddemanniana var alba ‘Virginia’
lueddemanniana var coerulea venosa
lueddemanniana var Cerro verde
lueddemanniana var mariauxi (maybe)

maxima semi alba var ‘la pedrena’

mossiae var alba
mossiae var alba ‘Bela Vista’
mossiae var reineckiana x2
mossiae var coerulea ‘canaima no.3’
mossiae var willowbrook

mendelli ‘herrenhausen’
mendelli concolor ‘Bucaramanga’


percivalliana alba var Oro blanco

purpurata var schusteriana 4n (Equilab x self)
purpurata var carnea
purpurata var werkhauseri
purpurata var tipo (select var)
purpurata var rubra(select var)
purpurata var Cindarosa
purpurata var tipo rosada ‘Brazil’
purpurata var tipo rosada ‘Claudio no.1’



schroderae (nomura x self)

trianaei var alba
trianaei alba var ‘Aranka Germaske’ ( 2 plants)
trianaei var mooreana
trianaei coerulea x self
trianaei (jungle queen AM/AOS x cashens FCC/AOS)
trianaei var coerulea pincelada
trianaei var Wein 2018
trianaei var semi alba


Warscewiczii semi alba ‘katia’
Warscewiczii alba var Leo Holguin
Warscewiczii var sanderiana

warneri var alba ‘Ricardo bells’
warneri var Graue


Primary hybrids 

x canhamiana coerulea (mossiae x purpurata)
x eximia coerulea (warneri x purpurata)
Hardyana var semi alba (dowiana x warscewiczii)
Stonehouse var Duke of Marlborough

and finally laelia tenebrosa!

regards

david


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## DrLeslieEe (Sep 5, 2020)

Great collection there David.

I see you have the lueddemaniana splash labio solido as well. It is a very nice flower.

I’m interested to see if you have bloomed that trianae coerulea pincelada. Is it a division?


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## monocotman (Sep 6, 2020)

No it’s not, just a seedling from eBay. At least three years to flowering.
Have you a photo of the splash labio? Mine is FS but not yet flowered.


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## DrLeslieEe (Sep 6, 2020)

Yes I do have a pic of mine. Quite stunning in real life. The red lip is almost dark blood purple red, as aptly named. Plus it’s a flamea too. Enjoy!




As for the trianae coerulea pincelada, can’t wait to see! I did have one but didn’t quite make it. So getting another two to make up for it lol...


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## monocotman (Sep 6, 2020)

Thanks Leslie, love it. Fingers crossed that mine is something similar. I bought mine from Max Strauß and his website shows something similar to yours with the very dark lip and flamea markings. 
Talking of flameas, my flamea labiata ‘RS6’ is just showing a bud in the sheath. Its a first time flowering of an unseen clone so that will be interesting.


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## Guldal (Sep 19, 2020)

David, thank you for that informative and impressive list! Definately a high quality collection you got there!

It seems, that I've acquired quite some different clones, if the name tags are to be believed. If I succeed in growing and flowering them, one day there might be a potential for exchanging divisions 

That is, if Boris doesn't botch it all, so we end up with impenetrable, firewall borders between you guys and continental Europe! He certainly at the present seems to work quite hard to obtain exactly that goal. One wonders, whether he considered himself exempt, when he so voraciously declared, that you should take back control?

PS. Someone seems to have a penchant for albas and semi-ditto?!

Kind regards, Jens


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## Guldal (Sep 19, 2020)

DrLeslieEe said:


> ...the lueddemaniana splash labio solido ... is a very nice flower.



Oh, yet again, Leslie, you take my breath away! That colour variety is simply to die for - the lueddemaniana to end (almost) all lueddemanianas! Colour, stance, everything is gorgeous!


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## monocotman (Sep 19, 2020)

I definitely prefer the albas and semi alba forms. Coeruleas less so, although some are ok.


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