# Kelp / Seaweed Additives



## Ray (Nov 15, 2011)

After learning that Rick is using a seaweed supplement, I socked away my concerns about the "snake oil" potential and started to look around. There are lots of "tidbits" of info in various threads here, but no "centralized resource" thread, so if nobody objects, i'd like to start one.

The general agreement is cold processing is preferred, to avoid breaking down the naturally-occurring auxins and cytokinins.

Interestingly enough, kelps harvested from the northern hemisphere seem to yield more cytokinins than auxins, while the reverse it true from some southern hemisphere genera. That raises the question "which do we want?". 

I think the answer truly is "both", as - if I am to believe a Wikipedia post (iffy) - plant cells exposed to auxins or auxins and cytokinins combined displayed growth effects, but those exposed to cytokinins only did not. I read elsewhere that the cytokinins tend to be active primarily in the "body" of the plant, where they have a significant effect on the apical meristem, whereas auxins work throughout the structure, including roots, which would explain why the "rooting hormone" products on the market primarily contain auxins.

Based on those factors, I would tend to favor a seaweed product heavy in auxins, since they stimulate root growth and roots generate their own cytokinins as they do.

Thoughts?


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## eggshells (Nov 15, 2011)

How do you use this seaweed kelp extract thing. Do you mix this with normal fertilizer or is it just a supplemental nutrition for your regular feeding program. Another thing is this allowed in Canada? I take it its an organic fertilizer?


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## mormodes (Nov 15, 2011)

My only comments would be anectdotal. I've been adding a seaweed product to msu fertilizer. But I have no science to back up why the plants seem to do better. Doesn't the much maligned Superthrive have some trace amount of plant hormone in it? In addition to vitamin B1.


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## Ray (Nov 15, 2011)

Yes, it is used as an additive, as they tend to be loaded with the hormones, enzymes and trace elements, but are weak in the basic mineral ions.

Yeah, SuperThrive, Hormex, K-L-N and others all contain auxins and B1, and they DO work. I think the problem is that folks buy old stuff or store it wrong, resulting in active ingredients that are no longer active.

Kept in a refrigerator, most fresh batches are good for about a year. At room temperature, maybe 6 months, and if allowed to get warm (picture on a shelf in a greenhouse in summer) or if exposed to sunlight, much less.


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## Mrs. Paph (Nov 15, 2011)

Thanks for the storage tip Ray - I assumed K-L-N should be refrigerated, since tissue culture stocks of hormones are, but can't remember if the bottle stated that that was necessary or not. Also reminds me, planted a bunch of roses this fall and used far more than I ever have needed for the orchids, so time to order more soon lol
As for the kelp, I know it's not uncommon as an organic fertilizer/additive, but hadn't really looked into it from a plant perspective. My Samoyed dog gets a little bit of dried Kelp in his diet as a trace mineral supplement - as you said, not much if any of the major minerals, but trace amounts of a number of other things that can be lacking in cultivated soils, and therefor on up the food chain as well. I doubt dogs as carnivores would get anything out of plant hormones, if they're even preserved in a dried down state, but I'll be watching this thread for possible plant applications of products meant for that


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## Ray (Nov 15, 2011)

I spoke to the importer of Kelpak, which is one of the mostly-auxin brands out of western South Africa, and he sells a bunch to pecan growers, and uses it himself on his vinyard.


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## mormodes (Nov 15, 2011)

So then I should probably refrigerate the kelp product I use. I never thought about degradation.


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## mormodes (Nov 15, 2011)

I use Max Sea or something like that. Its a brown liquid. Whether its the same as the MaxSea dry fertilizer I have no idea. But as with any dry fertilizer why pay for water?

As far as I know these 'natural' products uptake via the roots (of course) but also via the guard cells of leaf stomata. I have never been one for foliar feeding. I just toss that out to see if anyone else has input.


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## keithrs (Nov 15, 2011)

The two major species of kelp used are Ascophyllum nodosum(Norwegian) and Macrocystis Integrifolia(British Columbia). Most of your kelp extracts are going to be Norwegian kelp. A few companies like to use B.C. kelp because it has more growth hormones in it(claim to anyway). I can't back up there claims. All I have used has been Norwegian kelp. I have noticed that you get what you pay for, pretty much.

I hear that fulvic acid and yucca are excellent to mix in when you apply kelp. Maybe alittle Urea cut in half or Cal Nitrate when you do foliar spray!


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## keithrs (Nov 15, 2011)

I have not seen or heard of Ecklonia maxima used or sold in any nutrient line yet.


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## Lanmark (Nov 15, 2011)

Ray said:


> Thoughts?



_"Sometimes you get out on the sea and in the middle of the night, you can't see your hand in front of your face. There's a way to navigate, though, by the stars. I never learned.

But I always loved the sea, and stuff about the sea: sea horses, sea shells, C minuses ... stuff about the sea."_ - Bette Midler :wink:

I've had concerns about the "snake oil" potential of seaweed supplements as well. I'm starting to think, however, that there may be something useful in using such a product, even if it's only for the nutritional elements therein. Thanks for sharing that bit of information about the differences between kelps harvested in the northern and southern hemispheres. It's most interesting indeed!

I think the refrigerated storage of any such product is a very good idea too. I'm quite tempted to try some of this stuff on some of my Neos just to see what happens. Maybe it will just make a big smelly ol' mess, but then again, maybe the plants will love it.

Recently I repotted several prized African Violets into a blend of perliite and FoxFarm's Ocean Forest® Potting Soil and was rewarded with a billowing white "forest" of remarkably resilient mold.


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## Rick (Nov 15, 2011)

A friend of mine who is an AOS Judge, master Phale grower, and goes back and forth to Taiwan, says this is the primary supplement in Taiwan for those monster phals they produce in those industrial orchid warehouses over there.

I also saw a reference to its use in an interview with one of the major Taiwanese phal growers in Orchids Magazine. This is what prompted me to use it in the first place.

Used in conjunction with a fertilizer is another area altogether. As noted besides the auxins and cytokinins, there are all kinds of organic acids in these extracts which help in the transport of metals (like K, Na, Ca, Mg, and our favourite trace metals) into the plants.

Yes I keep mine in the fridge (as per bottle reccomendations).


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## biothanasis (Nov 15, 2011)

Interesting!!! Thank you all for the info!!


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## Stone (Nov 15, 2011)

I think we need to not get too carried away with too many different types of 
nutrients, concoctions, magical lotions and potions. I wonder if anyone has done a scientific trial on the real needs of low-nutrient requireing paphs.
If so, would there be a great difference in the end? Things like temperature,
light and water have hugely profound influence. Nutrients always come last
on the list. 
Having said all that, when we do get the environment right, we need to do
something while we wait for the plants to grow so we experiment with whatever we can find. I bet I'm #1 experimenter.
I have gone to the trouble of making my own ''Japanese'' fertilizer by combining bone meal and soybean, letting it harden and ferment, disolving
it in water, letting it ferment and age like a fine wine again, straining, diluting and useing.
Making leafmold tea in the hope that the slippers will apreciate nutrients in the form they have evolved with, while introducing the right sort of bacteria to support the rhizosphear.
Making a ''special'' compost in the backyard for worms to eat and using their
castings as a base for liquid feeds.
I have even started the process of growing my own osmunda!
And seaweed--It has been shown to stimulate growth with its various hormones. I've seen trees on the brink of death recover almost overnight
after a strong dose of seaweed, but give it to normal plants at the peak of 
health and It's hard to notice a real difference.
How do we really know if better growth in a plant is the result of one thing and not another? Maybe if we're growing a few plants under lights on a window sill we could spot little changes. But with hundreds of orchids in a large greenhouse, it took me a year to notice the difference of adding one extra fan.
Seaweed? Yes


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## Ray (Nov 16, 2011)

keithrs said:


> I have not seen or heard of Ecklonia maxima used or sold in any nutrient line yet.



Kelpak is.

I got a sample - 2.5 gallons! - and was advised to start at a 400:1 dilution, and never apply it more than every 14 days, as more often may over-stimulate the plant. Menopausal hormone rage in plants?

Oh yeah, it is said to be stable for "at least two years" at room temperature.


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## Lanmark (Nov 16, 2011)

Ray said:


> Kelpak is.
> 
> I got a sample - 2.5 gallons! - and was advised to start at a 400:1 dilution, and never apply it more than every 14 days, as more often may over-stimulate the plant. Menopausal hormone rage in plants?
> 
> Oh yeah, it is said to be stable for "at least two years" at room temperature.



Let us know if you decide to sell Kelpak!


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## mormodes (Nov 16, 2011)

So you are choosing auxins over cytokinins?


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## keithrs (Nov 16, 2011)

Ray said:


> Kelpak is.
> 
> I got a sample - 2.5 gallons! - and was advised to start at a 400:1 dilution, and never apply it more than every 14 days, as more often may over-stimulate the plant. Menopausal hormone rage in plants?
> 
> Oh yeah, it is said to be stable for "at least two years" at room temperature.



Well, other than Kelpak.... I meant more like a full nutrient line like General Organics or Advanced Nutrient. 

That's about what rate I apply @ with a foliar feeding once a month..... I use it more on my "garden" plants than my orchids. Works well!!!

For my garden plants, I brew cold pressed kelp with worm castings, molasses, and plant success mycorrhizal inoculants..... Works very well. I have started to use that recipe on my cymbidiums once a month... Time will tell if it will work of the long haul. Plants have shown a good respond to it so far. 


You should do a study to see how different species of orchids respond to the different kelps.....


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## Ray (Nov 16, 2011)

I have to admit to being a slouch in the orchid care arena lately. Dealing with lymphedema, a weird fall snowstorm/power outage/week-long speaking tour has got me WAY behind on the greenhouse.

I have only used the Kelpak on indoor tropical houseplants so far, but their response is phenomenal. Plants that were more-or-less languishing in the low light conditions suddenly started growing like weeds. Interestingly enough, the aglaonemas dumped a bunch of leaves, then started to put out more than ever before.

Can't wait to try it in the greenhouse, although is winter the best time for such a trial?


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## keithrs (Nov 16, 2011)

I'm sorry to hear about your dealing!!!!!! I can only imagine!!!!

Your probably right about starting it now, But if your going to use it, minus well see if you get plants to respond to it now.... maybe you'll get a better response come spring. Active plants should respond.... one way or the other.


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## NYEric (Nov 17, 2011)

Ray said:


> I have to admit to being a slouch in the orchid care arena lately. Dealing with lymphedema, a weird fall snowstorm/power outage/week-long speaking tour has got me WAY behind on the greenhouse.



Need help!? Will work for plants!


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## keithrs (Nov 22, 2011)

I wonder if you used at a lower dosage every other water, How that would effect the plant?


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## Rick (Nov 22, 2011)

I use a low dose once a week with my fertilizer. Have been since spring.

Lots of roots, growths, and leaves, but don't know if its the rest of the program.

At least nothing negative to report.


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## cnycharles (Nov 23, 2011)

is there really any difference in the products that are fish extracts that may have kelp/seaweed, or is it better to use the kelp/seaweed extracts without fish? (for nutrition, not to avoid the smell  )


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## Ray (Nov 23, 2011)

I guess it depends upon what you're trying to accomplish.

The kelps provide all sorts of minor elements and enzymes and the like, while the fish is going to be primarily a source of macronutrients, no?


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## Dido (Nov 23, 2011)

I am wondering if there are products in europe so I could start a trial with cyps and seedlings too.


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## Rick (Nov 23, 2011)

cnycharles said:


> is there really any difference in the products that are fish extracts that may have kelp/seaweed, or is it better to use the kelp/seaweed extracts without fish? (for nutrition, not to avoid the smell  )



The believe the growth regulator hormones of plants (cytokynins and auxins)
are not the same as for fish.

Fish extracts also should not contain fulvic acid.

So I really think this is an apples to oranges thing.

I think what got the world as fired up on kelp as a general plant aid, is that it is known to be the fastest growing plant in the world. So if you grind it up and press out the extract, then at least you should be applying the "magic essence" of a mega growing plant to your plants.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 23, 2011)

But is kelp really a "plant"? Taxonomy of seaweeds is a mess.....I guess some people still consider kelp and other macroalgae as plants... but most, formerly, seemed to consider them as "protists", which is a totally worthless concept, scientifically (although its great in a simply descriptive sense). I've seen some taxomomies that simply assigned kingdoms to some of the macroalgae's.....Point being, if its not a plant, how much of its characteristics can be equated with plants?


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## Rick (Nov 24, 2011)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> But is kelp really a "plant"? Taxonomy of seaweeds is a mess.....I guess some people still consider kelp and other macroalgae as plants... but most, formerly, seemed to consider them as "protists", which is a totally worthless concept, scientifically (although its great in a simply descriptive sense). I've seen some taxomomies that simply assigned kingdoms to some of the macroalgae's.....Point being, if its not a plant, how much of its characteristics can be equated with plants?



Regardless of taxonomy it seems to be full of max quantities of plant stuff (like auxins and cytokynins).

It's been a few years since taking algology, but alga were in the plant kingdom back then because they had so many process/structures analogous with terrestrial vascular plants.


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## mormodes (Nov 24, 2011)

mormodes said:


> So you are choosing auxins over cytokinins?



Bump. 

AFAIK there is a difference in terms of stimulating axillary (side) growths vs apical growths.


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## Rick (Nov 24, 2011)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> But is kelp really a "plant"? Taxonomy of seaweeds is a mess.....I guess some people still consider kelp and other macroalgae as plants... but most, formerly, seemed to consider them as "protists", which is a totally worthless concept, scientifically (although its great in a simply descriptive sense). I've seen some taxomomies that simply assigned kingdoms to some of the macroalgae's.....Point being, if its not a plant, how much of its characteristics can be equated with plants?



Wikipedia had some interesting points on this. Parts of the group that includes kelp (don't have the spelling in my head) were put into protists (something about mold and slime algae). Species considered "brown algae" were put into plants. Then somewhere in 2005 the entire original "kelp" group were given a kingdom all unto themselves along with 5 other eukaryotic groups.

It is a mess, but it looks like taxonomists are still having problems calling them something other than a plant.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 24, 2011)

That's why I like the Domain system. Too many inconsistencies with "kingdoms". this way, they are all just Eukaryotes.


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## Ray (Feb 6, 2012)

OK. Did some more digging, and have started carrying Kelpak.

If the cytokinins are at- or above the level of the auxins, whether the plant has an "auxin response" or a "cytokinin response" is apparently dependent more on the plant than anything else, and varies all over the map. If, on the other hand, the auxin level is higher, the response is consistently an auxin one. Kelpak is higher in auxins, but it appears that's more dependent upon processing than genus or species.

Their research shows auxins causing the initiation of root branching and new root tip growth, and root tips are where a cytokinins are primarily produced, so you get a bigger root mass (enhancing water and mineral uptake), and the cyto's spur on top growth supported by the enhanced uptakes.

I'm also starting to market a product that is fertilizer and seaweed in one - I call it "Solo" as you only need the one product. Right now I'm making it with MSU, but I might go with K-Lite in the future, if that pans out.


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## Rick (Feb 6, 2012)

Pretty cool Ray.

Besides the plant hormones, kelp extracts usually have many of the trace metals added to the MSU type ferts.

Do you have analysis to share of the kelp extract beyond the auxin/cytokynin numbers?


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## eggshells (Feb 6, 2012)

Does kelp fertilizer stinks?


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## Ray (Feb 6, 2012)

Only that it contains 1% K2O


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## Ray (Feb 6, 2012)

eggshells said:


> Does kelp fertilizer stinks?


1) It's not a fertilizer, but an additive.
2) Concentrated, it smells like a day at the beach after a storm. Dilute is close to undetectable.


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## emydura (Feb 6, 2012)

Thanks for the tip on storing Superthrive.

The fertiliser I have started using includes kelp. Does that mean using a product such as Superthrive is now redundant?


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## keithrs (Feb 6, 2012)

emydura said:


> Thanks for the tip on storing Superthrive.
> 
> The fertiliser I have started using includes kelp. Does that mean using a product such as Superthrive is now redundant?



No... But you find that you only have to use superthrive in moderation. Quality of kelp products vary greatly along with amounts used in organic fertilizers. Good quality cold pressed kelp can go for $100 for 500 ml. But you only have to use .5-1 ml per gal.


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## Stone (Feb 7, 2012)

1 I thought Superthrive was banned in Oz because they couldn't substantiate the claims??

2 I can't find a kelp product which is low in K??


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## keithrs (Feb 7, 2012)

Bioweed from GH has a NPK of 0.2-0-0.3


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## emydura (Feb 7, 2012)

Stone said:


> 1 I thought Superthrive was banned in Oz because they couldn't substantiate the claims??
> 
> 2 I can't find a kelp product which is low in K??



1. I hadn't heard that. It is easily available. Our local hydroponic store has it on their shelf.

2. I use the following which has only 0.45% K but then it is not purely a Kelp product so may not be that useful for you. 

http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/products/liquid-fertilisers/trio-cmb-foliar.html


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## Rick (Feb 7, 2012)

I think the name of the product I'm using is Seaplex and has something like .01-0-0 listed on the bottle.

http://www.botanicare.com/Seaplex-001-0-0--P80.aspx


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## Ozpaph (Feb 15, 2012)

I recently bought this - http://www.natrakelp.com/uploads/analysis(1).pdf.
We'll see how it goes.


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## Ray (Feb 15, 2012)

FWIW, I started using SOLO (MSU/Kelpak) on my tropical houseplants about 2 months ago, and two agalonemas are now spiking.


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## Stone (Feb 15, 2012)

I have read from a few different sources (although maybe just repeating each other) that kelp extract is best applied via foliar spray as this is 10-20 times more efficient than delivery through root drench. Any one have further information on this?


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## emydura (Feb 15, 2012)

Stone said:


> I have read from a few different sources (although maybe just repeating each other) that kelp extract is best applied via foliar spray as this is 10-20 times more efficient than delivery through root drench. Any one have further information on this?



I think they say that about fertilisers in general don't they. The fertiliser I use (which includes a kelp extract) can be used as either foliar or a fertigate. The company told me it is 12 times more efficient to apply it as a foliar fertiliser. I can also apply it at much higher concentrations (5 times more) as a foliar fertiliser than though the potting mix. I assume at higher concentrations you can burn the roots. Every 4th watering I apply it to the roots at the recommended lower concentration.


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## Stone (Feb 15, 2012)

Actually my references say roots are much more efficient in taking up nutrients and foliar sprays should be reserved for special circumstaces such damaged roots or for getting N or Mg. or whatever quickly into leaves. So I was wondering why/if seaweed was better sprayed?

Mike


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## emydura (Feb 15, 2012)

Stone said:


> Actually my references say roots are much more efficient in taking up nutrients and foliar sprays should be reserved for special circumstaces such damaged roots or for getting N or Mg. or whatever quickly into leaves. So I was wondering why/if seaweed was better sprayed?
> 
> Mike



If you do a google search you will find thousands of links telling you the advantages of foliar fertilising over fertigation. Interestingly they also generally say that foliar fertilising should be additional to fertigation rather than used solely. Hence I use both. But I foliar fertilise at very high concentrations. Since using this, my plants have never looked so good. They have certainly gone a darker green. You can see this from the leaves on my dianthum. It is as deep a green as you can imagine and it never used to be like that.


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## keithrs (Feb 15, 2012)

Stone said:


> Actually my references say roots are much more efficient in taking up nutrients and foliar sprays should be reserved for special circumstaces such damaged roots or for getting N or Mg. or whatever quickly into leaves. So I was wondering why/if seaweed was better sprayed?
> 
> Mike



Foliar sprays are more for plants the grow fast like tomatoes.... In a soil environment it hard to get all the trace elements to the roots(why glacier dust is so important).. Foliar sprays allow the plant to take advantage of all the trace elements by absorbing them though there stomata. Also kelp has hormones that are used by the leaves. Orchids being slow grower don't benefit as much as long as you have a good root system.... you'll benefit more from a good media soak.


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## keithrs (Feb 15, 2012)

I noticed bigger improvement with a wetting agent added to foliar sprays.


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## Stone (Feb 15, 2012)

So when you fertilize by pouring with a watering can you're actualy doing both. The thing is, plants with waxy leaves (most orchids) should be foliar fed with a spreader (wetting agent) which I'm not too crazy about using too often.


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## Stone (Feb 15, 2012)

Ha! You beat me to it keith!


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## keithrs (Feb 15, 2012)

Foliar sprays are only effective when the stomata are open... evening through early morning and the water solution needs to get on the bottom side of the leaves.


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## emydura (Feb 15, 2012)

keithrs said:


> I noticed bigger improvement with a wetting agent added to foliar sprays.



The fertiliser I use has a sticking agent. You can see it sticking to the leaves. It washes off very easily though next watering.



Stone said:


> So when you fertilize by pouring with a watering can you're actualy doing both. .



Yes, but then I would have to fertilise at 1/5 th of the recommended concentration. 



keithrs said:


> Foliar sprays are only effective when the stomata are open... evening through early morning and the water solution needs to get on the bottom side of the leaves.



Yes, they say spray before 10.00 am. Also don't spray with temperatures above 25oC (22oC is ideal) which generally isn't a problem at that time of the morning. Yes, bottom of the leaves is better which is another reason why it is better to apply it with a mister rather than a watering can. A finer mist is also better.

They say using a foliar fertiliser also greatly improves the absorption of fertiliser through the roots as well as increase root growth.


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## Stone (Feb 15, 2012)

emydura said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Stone (Feb 16, 2012)

keithrs said:


> Foliar sprays are only effective when the stomata are open... evening through early morning and the water solution needs to get on the bottom side of the leaves.



It seems we can forget about stomata and presumably spray any time humidity will stay high for a some time (Page 7)

http://www.growersmineral.com/pdf/The GP - Foliar Nutrition.pdf


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## keithrs (Feb 16, 2012)

Stone said:


> It seems we can forget about stomata and presumably spray any time humidity will stay high for a some time (Page 7)
> 
> http://www.growersmineral.com/pdf/The GP - Foliar Nutrition.pdf



I normally don't have high humidity. 10-30% is normal....

I'll also add that fulvic acid helps stimulate the cell walls and you get increased absorption.


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## Stone (Feb 16, 2012)

Yes I've been reading about the great chelating properties of fulvic acid just recently.


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## emydura (Feb 16, 2012)

Stone said:


> emydura said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...


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## Ozpaph (Feb 16, 2012)

emydura said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > If you fertilise at 1/8 the recommended soil fertilisation rate, that would make it 1/40 the recommended foliar rate.
> ...


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## Ray (Feb 16, 2012)

keithrs said:


> (snip)Foliar sprays allow the plant to take advantage of all the trace elements by absorbing them though there stomata.


That was what I thought, too. However, having purchased a couple of textbooks on the subject, I now find that ONLY gases (including nutrient vapors, like ammonia) pass through stomata. However, the ectodesmata that tend to be near the guard cells that surround stomata DO provide something of a pathway.

I think it's interesting that the less ionic a liquid is, the easier it will pass into the leaf tissue. That may explain why many foliar nutrients generally contain more urea than ammonium- or nitrate-based nitrogen.


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## emydura (Feb 16, 2012)

Ozpaph said:


> emydura said:
> 
> 
> > David, what wetting agent are you using?
> ...


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## keithrs (Feb 16, 2012)

I guess my knowledge is old school... I need to up date it!


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## keithrs (Feb 16, 2012)

Updating my knowledge....

Stomata


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## Stone (Feb 17, 2012)

emydura said:


> > If you fertilise at 1/8 the recommended soil fertilisation rate, that would make it 1/40 the recommended foliar rate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Stone (Feb 17, 2012)

keithrs said:


> > I normally don't have high humidity. 10-30% is normal....
> 
> 
> 
> Hang on!! 10%-30%?? How can you grow paphs in that? Thats desert territory. On the hottest, driest days we get a north wind blowing down from the central Australian desert ( the dryest continent on earth ) and I don't think we get down to 10%? outside, let alone in the g/house.


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## emydura (Feb 17, 2012)

Stone said:


> emydura said:
> 
> 
> > What I mean is that I'm fertilizing p/media at about 1/8 recommeded rate so if the leaves happen to get wet in the process, all good and well. You are obviously having good results feeding at your rate but it seems a tad high to me given what we have learned about habitat? But that brings back the old argument about nature v captivity.
> ...


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## keithrs (Feb 17, 2012)

Stone said:


> keithrs said:
> 
> 
> > Hang on!! 10%-30%?? How can you grow paphs in that? Thats desert territory. On the hottest, driest days we get a north wind blowing down from the central Australian desert ( the dryest continent on earth ) and I don't think we get down to 10%? outside, let alone in the g/house.
> ...


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## Rick (Feb 17, 2012)

keithrs said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > I live in high desert... Some times it's down to 1%... I have only three paph a this point. Rest are mostly aussie dens and catts/laelia with a few others mixed in. I had a huge problem with seedling... In order to keep them from resperating to death I had to water them constently witch would cause them to rot. I have finely build a small encloser to house them inside..... Boy what a difference. I'm in the process of building a small green house(5x10 or so) to house the more tempered ones.
> ...


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## keithrs (Feb 17, 2012)

Rick said:


> keithrs said:
> 
> 
> > YUP. I grew up in SO Cal and when those Santa Anna winds kick in I've seen watered green lawns shrivel up and brown in half a day in Irvine, Ca! It's not as bad here in TN, but its amazing how dry it can get with a north wind and electric heaters going in the GH. I've needed to build an air recirculating system for my wet pad, and add a fogger to keep humidity at good levels in the winter.
> ...


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## eggshells (Feb 25, 2012)

Rick said:


> I think the name of the product I'm using is Seaplex and has something like .01-0-0 listed on the bottle.
> 
> http://www.botanicare.com/Seaplex-001-0-0--P80.aspx



Hi Rick, I bought a bottle of seaplex. How often do you use it and what is the application per gallon of water? 

Thanks.


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## Rick (Feb 25, 2012)

eggshells said:


> Hi Rick, I bought a bottle of seaplex. How often do you use it and what is the application per gallon of water?
> 
> Thanks.



I'm using it once a week with the K-lite formula. 1/4 tsp per gal (same rate as what I'm doing with Klite at present)


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## Ray (Mar 14, 2012)

An update on the use of the "Solo" product (MSU + Kelpak):

I have found a negative: I have to water more.

You may recall that I started by using my tropical houseplants as "guinea pigs", and they are all doing very well, but the S/H pots (I use the kind with gauges for them) are needing to be watered more often than before.

I first thought that it might be evaporation due to winter's dry air, but lately it has been very mild (15°-20° above our historical average) and moist, so that can't be the issue.

I unpotted an aglaonema (Chinese evergreen), and the root system is unbelievable!

It makes sense, doesn't it? More roots = faster water uptake.

I have started using a variant - K-Lite + Kelpak - in the greenhouse, but considering that I water at every opportunity the sunlight gives me, I doubt I'll see the reservoirs draining faster.


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## Rick (Mar 15, 2012)

I don't know if I'd call it a negative that root growth has increased even if labor requirements for upkeep have increased accordingly.

Ultimately will you end up with a better plant with better roots?

Or am I missing a bit of sarcasm?


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## Ray (Mar 16, 2012)

Rick said:


> Or am I missing a bit of sarcasm?



Yep oke:


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## Rick (Mar 16, 2012)

Ray said:


> Yep oke:


I'm getting slow in my old age!


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## Ray (Mar 30, 2012)

So while the all of the orchids are on a steady K-Lite diet, I tried K-Lite + Kelpak on a few vandaceous plants. The ones getting K-Lite only are growing nicely, putting out new roots, growing new foliage nicely.

This is one getting K-Lite + Kelpak - look at the branching roots!


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## Rick (Mar 30, 2012)

Yes, I like.

Using the paphs/phrags in the basket routine, I'm also seeing a lot of root growth.

However, I don't have a no-kelp condition to compare to.


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## eggshells (Mar 30, 2012)

Hey Rick, I'm getting lots of growths as well.


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## Rick (Mar 30, 2012)

eggshells said:


> Hey Rick, I'm getting lots of growths as well.



Can you list species/cultivars?


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## eggshells (Mar 30, 2012)

Most paph species are having good root growths. My paph intaniae is doing good as well. New roots and a leaf. same with adductum. My best adductum grew 2 leaf in 4 months. 1.5 leaf.

One ridiculous paph is paph philippinense. I just potted this last november and Now I am needing to pot it again.

















I was just actually telling my friend paphman about the seaweed. I'm going to send him some to try.


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## Stone (Mar 31, 2012)

I think I read somwhere that too much kelp can deform flowers/growths. anyone hear of this?


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## Rick (Apr 1, 2012)

Stone said:


> I think I read somwhere that too much kelp can deform flowers/growths. anyone hear of this?



I heard this too, but not sure what constitutes "too much".

When I use it (weekly) at 1/4 tsp/gal I'm well below the label recommendations.


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## emydura (Apr 1, 2012)

Stone said:


> I think I read somwhere that too much kelp can deform flowers/growths. anyone hear of this?



The fertiliser I use has kelp included. I seem to have had a few flower deformities lately. Currently have two Delrosi in bud where both plants had buds develop straight out of the crown. Both times the flowers were pretty deformed as well. Normal spikes seem to be developing now. They are both first flowering divisions so it is no big surprise. My Harold Koopowitz had one flower with no dorsal and another two flowers with dodgey staminodes. But then these sort of hybrids often seem to throw up deformed flowers. I've had flowers with no deformities. None of the 15 dianthum flowers were deformed. 

Anyway I will keep a closer eye on this. At the moment I'm happy to sacrifice a few flowers for the huge increase in new growths I'm seeing. I was checking my roth yesterday and noticed a few new growths. It has two flowered growths and 4 new leads including 3 new leads from the one growth. I'm seeing a lot of that now where previously I couldn't even get 2 new leads a growth.


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## Stone (Apr 1, 2012)

Hi David, I think I also read of a Taiwan grower who uses kelp as part of his feeding program specifically to get more leads on his plants. Not sure if he was growing paphs or phals but kelp is gaining a reputation for doing this.


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## emydura (Apr 1, 2012)

Stone said:


> Hi David, I think I also read of a Taiwan grower who uses kelp as part of his feeding program specifically to get more leads on his plants. Not sure if he was growing paphs or phals but kelp is gaining a reputation for doing this.



As I have changed a few things at once I'm not sure what is the main driver behind this. It could be the huge increase in Ca, Mg, or kelp or the reduction in k or the change to a foliar fertiliser or all of the above. But it is nice to see the increase in growths as this was one of my biggest concerns. I'm really excited about how my plants will look in 2 or 3 years time if they keep growing at this rate.


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## Ray (Apr 1, 2012)

I know that excessive application of IBA and NAA can cause deformities in phalaenopsis flowers - I've seen it myself - but that was at one tablespoon per gallon at every watering, and they are far more concentrated than seaweed extracts.


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## eggshells (Apr 1, 2012)

I have heard of KLN, superthrive and hormex when applied in huge amounts but never heard of kelp yet. I'm following Rick's 1/4 dosage and application. I have a couple of buds, delenatii and niveum so I will post those soon and see if they have some sort of deformation.


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## Rick (Apr 1, 2012)

I've been using things like ST, KLN, Kieki Pro, and Kelp almost continuously for the last 10 years. Kelp (the latest) for about a full year now. Probably my highest rate of crippled flowers was during the Keiki Pro or ST times, which were all high K times too. At this time I've seen virtually no crippling over this present period of low K and kelp.

My present theory is that the K is actually the big bloom forcer (as blooms and fruits are where most of the K goes to in plants), and what ever hormone enhancement is added is mainly an enabler.

So if the basic plant foundation is inadequate (small, stunted, anemic) from low or constrained Ca, Mg, then forced plants will have a higher rate of flower crippling.

I think the glaucophyllum I've been posting about may be a good example since they bloom on the same spikes over extended periods, and new growths will start spiking before the old spike is done. The first spike (from a growth produced during a previous owner) produced almost all faulty flowers. I almost felt like pitching the plant. But with newer growths and spikes the flower quality is improved considerably. The newest spike with no faulty flowers at all so far.

If you need another caution, then also consider the excess use of magnesium. Magnesium is rarely found in the environment at higher concentrations than Ca. In my tox testing with aquatic organisms, even fairly low concentrations of Mg cause impairment to organisms if the Mg concentrations exceed Ca concentrations. Slipperking experienced some flower crippling in his phrags (with longifolium parents) when we were pushing epsom salts pretty heavy, and probably giving chronic doses of Mg in absence of adequate Ca.

So Ca may be the best regulator to use as the balance point of all these feeding trials.


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## Stone (Apr 1, 2012)

Years ago I had a haynaldianum which produced badly distorted flowers often with parts missing for three consecutive years so I ended up burning it!
With the Ca Mg thing, My reference says that ratios are not critical but a Ca/Mg ratio of 5 is commonly used. Also if high levels of K are being applied and the water contains little Mg, then the ratio should be nearer to 2, and that media in which growth is excellent tend to have extractable Ca/Mg ratios in the 3 to 4 range.
Gypsum is a good source of slow release Ca. as it is far more soluble than Dolomite 2.41 g/L compared to 0.01g/L for Dolomite.
My problem with Gypsum is that 5 out of 5 samples I've tried where contaminated with lime!


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## Rick (Apr 1, 2012)

Most natural surface or ground waters already have a minimum 2:1 Ca to Mg ratio. Waters/terrestrial environments with reversed Ca:Mg ratios are rare.

Even if your water is "soft" (not "softened") that ratio will still hold. 

It's usually pretty easy to get a local ag or analytical lab to determine the calcium and magnesium content of your water. Most municipal supplies get tested regularly and the reports are free from the municipality.

If your water has a hardness of 80 - 100 mg/L as CaCO3 you will probably have water with about 25 ppm Ca and 5 ppm Mg in it. Using this regularly on your plants will decrease dependence on adding solid lime or dolomite to potting mixes. 

I'm spoiled in my lab with easy access to reagent grade salts. Gypsum is just calcium sulfate and probably easy to get from a chemical supply house without any lime contamination.

I was also surprised to find that agricultural grade calcium nitrate has a pretty high amount of residual ammonia in it compared to the lab grade stuff I was using (but still only about 1%).


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## eggshells (Apr 1, 2012)

It was a good timing that I was potting my paph helenae that I got as a small seedling last year. 9 cm leaf span at that time. Got a lot of healthy roots as well!


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## The Mutant (Apr 2, 2012)

I've started using seaweed extract now too, but I'm using SM 6 since it was the only one I could get here in Sweden. Unfortunately, I can't use the magnesium since the calcium won't be available until June/July, and after reading that you should use these chemicals together, I'll just have to wait until the calcium is in stock.


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## keithrs (Apr 12, 2012)

Found a company out of Maine that makes and sells kelp and fish products.

noam kelp


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## Ray (Apr 13, 2012)

From my reading (and my experience, as limited as it is), you want an extract that is higher in auxins than cytokinins.

Auxins primarily stimulate the growth of root tips (hence my photo in this thread), while cytokinins primarily function in the elongation of cells - growth of the plant.

Different plants react differently to the two classes of hormones. If the additive is higher in cytokinins, you will probably see plant elongation and growth , but that _may, or may not_ not be accompanied by more root growth. If, on the other hand, the additive has more auxins, you will always see more adventitious root tip growth, and as they growth, they produce cytokinins to aid in the plant growth.

I'm really interested to see how these kelp additives work with flowering plants, as most of the experience is with food crops. The guy that imports Kelpak is primarily a vintner, and he specializes in syrah and petit syrah. He uses the stuff in the spring to stimulate root growth and kick start the vines so they grow better, and thereby produce more and better fruit. Then, as the grapes grow, he applies it again, only this time he's looking for the cytokinins to cause extension in the rachis, separating the grapes so he can get more effective penetration of fungicides, giving him more, top-quality grapes per bunch.


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## keithrs (Apr 13, 2012)

I read that you don't want to use much when flower past the flowering stage because the hormones can deform the flowers and reduce the count.....that is for veggies at least.


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## Rick (Apr 13, 2012)

As opposed to using things like Superthrive, KLN, or Keikipro, kelp products have a lower percent of the total product as auxins and cytokinins. There are a lot of other beneficial organic compounds that do things like help transport and chelate metals (including the majors like Ca/Mg/Na/K).

Many of these compounds will be similar to the organics that leach out of bark moss or chc. So this could be a plus for SH and hydro growers that use primarily inorganic media.

I wouldn't be to scared of using kelp at low doses.


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## Ray (Apr 14, 2012)

True enough, Rick.

Kelpak is 11mg/L auxins (7 different ones) and 0.031mg/L cytokinins (12 of them), giving it a grand total of just over 11 ppm hormones.

K-L-N, by contrast is 0.15% auxins - 1500 ppm.


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## Ozpaph (Apr 14, 2012)

I recently started using this - http://www.natrakelp.com/uploads/analysis(1).pdf
Only problem is its so thick I had to drill out the holes in my watering cans rose!


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## Ray (Apr 14, 2012)

Some comments on the "Natrakelp":

1) The natural hormones are all cytokinins

2) They added IBA to provide auxins, and it's synthetic and quite unstable.

3) That is a very dilute formulation.


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## Ozpaph (Apr 15, 2012)

Ray said:


> Some comments on the "Natrakelp":
> 
> 1) The natural hormones are all cytokinins
> 
> ...



thanks for your input.
I'm not sure what else is available downunder - will keep looking.


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## emydura (Apr 15, 2012)

Ozpaph said:


> thanks for your input.
> I'm not sure what else is available downunder - will keep looking.



Don't you use Trio™ (CMB) Foliar? That already has kelp in it.


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## Ozpaph (Apr 15, 2012)

emydura said:


> Don't you use Trio™ (CMB) Foliar? That already has kelp in it.



yes I do, but not sure about the 'hormone' content - which is the object of my mid week foliar feeding programme.


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## consettbay2003 (Apr 16, 2012)

Ray, I would appreciate your thoughts on what quantity of kelpak to add to a gallon of water and also how often you would recommend using it.


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## Ray (Apr 16, 2012)

I may be the sole retail outlet in North America, but I'm learning, too.

The advice I've gotten from the manufacturer is primarily based upon food crops and turf, although they did provide some minimal hydroponics experience, as well.

Don't use below a concentration of 500:1, as it will have no appreciable effect.

Start at 400:1 and see how it goes, increasing the dosage as you see fit.

Vegetables, tomatoes - 100:1 every 2-3 weeks

Turf - 200:1 monthly​I am using it at 256:1 (1 tablespoon per gallon) at every watering, in addition to 75 ppm N via K-Lite. My new "Solo" product matches that, but I am targeting smaller-scale, windowsill growers, and recommending it to be used once every 2- to 4 weeks.


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## terryros (Apr 16, 2012)

Ray, do you have any educated guess about whether Kelpac is likely to be beneficial throughout the entire growth cycle or perhaps only up to spike initiation? Perhaps we don't start again until towards the end of blooming?


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## Ray (Apr 17, 2012)

I have no idea, Terry.

I am applying it to plants in all stages, but they have not necessarily had it for their entire cycles yet. If I use the importer's grape example, it can play a tole in spiking and flowering, too.

Surely their are others here with more general seaweed experience that can chime in.


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## suss16 (Apr 17, 2012)

Wow... I have been using it (Kelpak) at 1/4 tsp per gallon. I guess I really need to increase the dose? 

Funny, I thought my most of my new fat root growth was due to the Kelpak and not my or Ray's version of K-lite?


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## Rick (Apr 19, 2012)

Ray said:


> True enough, Rick.
> 
> Kelpak is 11mg/L auxins (7 different ones) and 0.031mg/L cytokinins (12 of them), giving it a grand total of just over 11 ppm hormones.



Yes, and I bet most out there don't have a good feeling for how little 11 mg (0.011gr) of a substance is within 1000 grams of water.

Even though kelp products are thick and gooey, they are probably about 95% water anyway. That means there would be about 49.989 grams (4998 mg) of other stuff besides the hormones in every liter of product.


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## Rick (Apr 19, 2012)

suss16 said:


> Funny, I thought my most of my new fat root growth was due to the Kelpak and not my or Ray's version of K-lite?




Hormones direct the direction of growth but do not actually produce/support growth on their own. That's what the fert is for. Remember the plants will produce the hormones themselves, but they can't produce the macro nutrients needed to make growth.


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## Ray (Apr 24, 2012)

The importer of Kelpak has told me that the use of these products tends to increase the number and size of the vascular bundles in plants.

Improved vascular bundles means more/faster transport of nutrients and sugars throughout the plant, leading to better flowering and fruiting.

I have had a Phrag Cape Sunset for years that was "typically frustrating" in that as soon as a second blossom opened, the first would immediately drop off, even though it looked pristine. For the last couple of months, it has gotten K-Lite and Kelpak.

Here it is again, now in day 7 of two blossoms!!! Coincidence?


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## keithrs (May 7, 2012)

I noticed something interesting over the weekend.....

I had been feeding kelp to all my plants(orchids, garden alike) over the last several months, but I had stopped about two weeks ago. Over the weekend I was going through my collection and noticed that all most all new roots on my orchids had stalled in there growth. You think this could be related to the growth hormones or lack of... that caused this?


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## Rick (May 7, 2012)

keithrs said:


> I noticed something interesting over the weekend.....
> 
> I had been feeding kelp to all my plants(orchids, garden alike) over the last several months, but I had stopped about two weeks ago. Over the weekend I was going through my collection and noticed that all most all new roots on my orchids had stalled in there growth. You think this could be related to the growth hormones or lack of... that caused this?



Is this on mounted plants or plants in clear pots that you can see the roots day to day?

Especially if mounted you may consider the humidity levels before suspecting the loss of kelp derived hormone. 

Also how do the "stalled" roots look. Are the tips looking dead and burnt or still green/white?

Is the whole plant stalled or just the roots? Even with hormone supplements roots start and stop based on what the rest of the plant is doing at different times of years.

Not an easy one to answer Keithrs.


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## keithrs (May 7, 2012)

Rick said:


> Is this on mounted plants or plants in clear pots that you can see the roots day to day?
> 
> Especially if mounted you may consider the humidity levels before suspecting the loss of kelp derived hormone.
> 
> ...



It is on all plants that I can see the root systems... Seedlings to specimens. There are a few plants that are potted that I can't see the root systems. Some of my warm plants and my seedlings are in a grow tent with a humidifier and same thing seems to happen. Some plants have green tips still and other are white all the way to the tip except for a small dot the size of a ball point pen. Everything else still to be growing still. 

I just found it weird that this time of year when most orchids are growing roots like crazy that the roots that started stalled.


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## Stone (May 7, 2012)

I'm always on the lookout for anything or method that might improve root growth. I think it's worth considering the importance of Boron which I have learned is absolutely vital for root growth and root tip formation. In fact it's apparently as important as Ca although in extremly smaller quanaties.
The fact that B is not held on colloids and is one of the most easily leached nutrients means that without a constant supply, it's quite possible to reach a state of deficiency which will quickly put a stop to all root growth.
It's probably unlikly that most people will have deficiency of B if they are feeding regularly with a complete fert. and I think kelp has an amount in it but this could vary? So the problem is probably rare but I thought it was worth a mention.
Interesting to note B aids Ca uptake and high Ca in media can lead to deficiency of B.
While looking at trace elements for treating raw organic p/media I found that once Fe Cu and Zn were added they are held tightly against loss through leaching Mn to a lesser extent and much less for B.
So if you are using very pure water and feeding little it could be worth checking your B. If your adding a little well water like Rick, you are maybe raising your B levels.
Keith, if your root tips are not black and dead, but just sealed off, I think you have another problem. What have you changed recently? or what about the weather/humidity?

Some light reading if your interested.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC440008/pdf/plntphys00341-0003.pdf

Mike


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## Rick (May 7, 2012)

Both K lite and traditional high K MSU have 0.025% B. Most of the kelp extracts I've seen also have B present, but there's no reason to suspect that the B concentration in K lite alone is deficient.


I conducted a toxicity test in our lab on Boron and needed to check local water for Boron concentration for control water. Boron concentration for middle TN surface and well waters is non detect at 50 ug/L. So my 10% addition of well water to RO has no significant Boron. My plants get it pretty much strictly from the fert and kelp.

May want to look at something more fundamental like pH.


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## keithrs (May 8, 2012)

Thanks for the read Mike!

The weather has been getting warmer in the afternoon but it has been overcast intel about 11 or so.(May gray) Wind has also picked up. Maybe the plants feel too dry even tho the humidity has been in the 60's. Or maybe the humidity drops far more then I really know. I find it odd that the plants in my grow tent have stalled also. I do check the pH every time I fill my trash can and/or fertilize. I have started using about 30 ppm of N instead of 80 ppm tho I did hold fertilizer for several weeks while I was still using kelp. I have not had a pH lower than 5.9 after correcting it with city water. I found some of my plants to be very dark green. I'm finding that 80 ppm N is far to much for every watering.

I do have boron in powder form for my garden plants. It's very easy to overdose boron. I use 1 oz for 5 gal. when I mix up dry fertilizer for my garden plants.


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## Rick (May 8, 2012)

keithrs said:


> Thanks for the read Mike!
> 
> The weather has been getting warmer in the afternoon but it has been overcast intel about 11 or so.(May gray) Wind has also picked up. Maybe the plants feel too dry even tho the humidity has been in the 60's. Or maybe the humidity drops far more then I really know. I find it odd that the plants in my grow tent have stalled also. I do check the pH every time I fill my trash can and/or fertilize. I have started using about 30 ppm of N instead of 80 ppm tho I did hold fertilizer for several weeks while I was still using kelp. I have not had a pH lower than 5.9 after correcting it with city water. I found some of my plants to be very dark green. I'm finding that 80 ppm N is far to much for every watering.
> 
> I do have boron in powder form for my garden plants. It's very easy to overdose boron. I use 1 oz for 5 gal. when I mix up dry fertilizer for my garden plants.



I don't think its time to panic and supplement boron separately yet. Watch for another couple of weeks (hopefully getting sunny again) and maybe get a few cheap hygrometers to see what your humidity is really at (my plants really prefer 70% or greater).


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## Stone (May 8, 2012)

keithrs said:


> .
> 
> 
> > It's very easy to overdose boron.
> ...


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## Roth (May 8, 2012)

Rick said:


> I don't think its time to panic and supplement boron separately yet. Watch for another couple of weeks (hopefully getting sunny again) and maybe get a few cheap hygrometers to see what your humidity is really at (my plants really prefer 70% or greater).



To be honest, from time to time in the past I got sometimes stunted roots. Repotting solved the problem in most cases, but after a while it would restart again. An analysis of the potting mix at the time of repotting and when the plants started to exhibit stunted roots showed no major accumulation/deficiency, and nothing that could explain really the problem, except low boron and zinc. I tried zinc alone, but it did not help. Boron on the other side restarted the root growth in a week or two, and the plants never looked happier.

Norman's Orchids is selling now another 'magic fertilizer' ( Turbo thrive), that most people claim do wonders. In fact, the only important ingredients in this fertilizer additive are molybdenum ( to help for the nitrate uptake, especially for MSU users...), and boron.

I supplement boron, but I would not advise anyone to do so unless you are ready to pay for a potting mix analysis, water analysis, and be exceedingly careful to whatever you add to the water, fertilizer, pesticides. It is indeed very easy to overdose boron (though I went up to 10ppm in an experiment with Paph. St Swithin seedlings, and they did not show any trouble over a year...). The way you flush the pots is important. If you flush a lot, then the boron can be deficient. If you do not flush enough, then there can be an accumulation up to a very toxic level if you supplement boron.

Overall, many growers experience a boron deficiency, many growers experience as well a boron toxicity. The symptoms are stunted roots, chlorosis of the whole plant, or part of, and stunted shoots after a while ( small leaf syndrom). After a long time with boron deficiency, the older leaves will start to become bronze colored, then dry to a brownish color. It is very hard to correct at that time. Sometimes the plants will make a lot of side shoots that do not grow well.

Many potting materials have enough boron to start with ( lava rock especially...), but after a while, the supplies are depleted. If you use too much calcium too, the boron deficiency will be sharper, and the symptoms will be quite similar to a calcium deficiency ( anyway, calcium needs boron to be absorbed so it's normal).

If you are a chemist, and willing to pay for analysis, go ahead with the boron, it really helps to grow the plants better and faster. If not, better be happy with the way your plants are growing...

Boron is locked up at high pH, and is readily soluble, and flushed quickly at low pH. As a result, it is always recommended to apply boron at low rates all the time, depending on the crop ( some crops need really high levels of boron, I remember about pansies, and one nut tree...). If you have a boron deficiency, whenever you use calcium nitrate or lime, the plants will become a strange chlorotic color, and the leaves will be stunted quickly, that's why now the new trend in the Netherlands is to add boron to calcium nitrate all the time.

Most fertilizer companies supply a fertilizer that is extremely low in boron, to be on the safe side. Years ago, they used to supply fertilizers with higher, suitable boron content. However, some users had already enough boron in their potting mix or water, and the added boron from the fertilizer brought a lot of those fertilizer manufacturers to the court, with entire crops being stunted by boron toxicity.


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## keithrs (May 9, 2012)

Rick said:


> I don't think its time to panic and supplement boron separately yet. Watch for another couple of weeks (hopefully getting sunny again) and maybe get a few cheap hygrometers to see what your humidity is really at (my plants really prefer 70% or greater).



I'm not going to supplement anything at this point. I do have several hygrometers but they don't respond that fast. Analog type....


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## Stone (May 9, 2012)

Roth said:


> > the new trend in the Netherlands is to add boron to calcium nitrate all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting. How much B is added? Is this when Calnitrate is used alone?


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## Ray (May 10, 2012)

Roth said:


> Norman's Orchids is selling now another 'magic fertilizer' ( Turbo thrive), that most people claim do wonders. In fact, the only important ingredients in this fertilizer additive are molybdenum ( to help for the nitrate uptake, especially for MSU users...), and boron.


I just got back after 10 hours on the road from Dayton, so may be "road dazed", but I don't understand that statement. MSU has both micronutrients already.


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## Roth (May 11, 2012)

Ray said:


> I just got back after 10 hours on the road from Dayton, so may be "road dazed", but I don't understand that statement. MSU has both micronutrients already.



The concentrations of boron is definitely too low in MSU and most fertilizers, and the concentration of molybdenum can be too low under certain circumstances. Tap water or potting mix can supplement, but in my conditions, I found out boron deficiency to be somewhat of a problem, the main symptoms of a mild deficiency being that the plants do not grow as fast as they should. If it goes further, chlorosis, root stunting...


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## cnycharles (May 11, 2012)

a number of our fertilizers at work have low amounts of boron and molybdenum added, and my boss during earlier years would point out to us the signs of boron deficiency. when we make up pansy/petunia feed, we do add a set amount of boron, iron and citric acid to each barrel for these plants. sometimes I think the petunias look a little 'gray' green, and wonder if this is too much boron. on these fertilizer packages, they do state that the levels of ferts and micros are for a 'constant' feed rate, so if you are continually using these fertilizers, the micros most likely would be enough as they are being added all the time, though in low amounts. if you were doing feeding like for houseplants where you give a large dose and then not feed for a long period of time, then it's very possible that the micros aren't enough. then again, the only time you would have a truly constant application of the fertilizer would be in an aqua culture/hydroponics


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## Ray (May 11, 2012)

Roth said:


> The concentrations of boron is definitely too low in MSU and most fertilizers, and the concentration of molybdenum can be too low under certain circumstances. Tap water or potting mix can supplement, but in my conditions, I found out boron deficiency to be somewhat of a problem, the main symptoms of a mild deficiency being that the plants do not grow as fast as they should. If it goes further, chlorosis, root stunting...



Thanks for the explanation. So what boron level should we be looking for?


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## Roth (May 12, 2012)

Ray said:


> Thanks for the explanation. So what boron level should we be looking for?



At present time I am using the following for the micros, but a disclaimer, I have no idea how it would work in any specific setup. I have most of my plants in Orchiata, some in tree fern and sheet moss ( mostly Solomons stuff and ooii...), and some in other things here and there. 

The well water is sprinkled to precipitate the iron since some days now (before I did not, and ended up with a brownish reddish sludge in the RO system, that I though was bacteria slime, but in fact is iron hydroxide...), then cheaply filtered. Afterwards, the pH is raised to 10-11 with KOH to precipitate the boron if any, dropped with HCl to 7, and the remaining is filtered through a high performance RO system under high pressure, about 250L/hour (costly crap...). The EC of my water is currently below 8 microsiemens.

I have a friend using rain water with the same mix, successfully, and another one in Malaysia using the same mix, with city water. So anyone who wants to try the following, do it at your own risks, and try it for some months. I use it for a couple years now, though I increased even more boron last year. The leaves of all the paphs are dark green, and most of the Solomons species, as well as ooii and intaniae, grow really wonderfully well and fast.

Final concentration in the feeding water (approximate) in ppm:
Fe 0.3
Mn 0.65
Zn 0.3
Cu 0.35
B 0.45
Mo 0.5

mg/L of final fertilizer:
NaFe EDTA 2mg
MnSO4, H2O 2mg
H3BO3 2.4mg
ZnSO4, 7H2O 0.8mg
CuSO4, 5H2O 1mg
Na2MoO4 1mg

all the time. It is vastly more than MSU (especially if the MSU is used at less than 1g/L final concentration...). You can get good results with lower B and Mo indeed, but for some species, there has been many problems to grow them unless the boron was raised.

I got some foliar analysis of phalaenopsis malipoensis and maculata where the boron level in the leaves was several times the level that would kill a rose or lily...

If anyone wants to try, feel free to do it, but do not complain if your plants are toasted afterwards  As for me, the plants are growing great, and I feel there is an increase in seed quantity and quality since I am using those concentrations. It would be logical, as boron in some other crops helps promote good quality seeds in case of deficiencies...

I tried MSU, like Wendy, and the multifloras looked like crap indeed after only a few weeks using it, really. I tried as well to add some ammonium sulfate to the MSU, which improved the things a bit. Now I am forced to try the MSU again, to understand why it is such a failure, and indeed, it is still a giant crap without ammonium in my condition, but there is a significant (huge) improvement with increased boron. Again, too much calcium with not enough boron can result in a boron deficiency, that will indeed induce a calcium problem. I am doing more trials with the MSU again ( as one orchiata customers wants absolutely to use MSU, I cannot figure why he is focused on MSU, but anyway...), to see what's wrong after all. Boron and ammonium seem to be two of the problems, in my condition, and quite a few other people's ones ( including sphag growers, bark/peat Dutch growers...).


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## Rick (May 12, 2012)

The boron issue does appear to have a lot of species specificity.

When preparing for the boron project in my lab, we reviewed the toxicity literature, and the most sensitive data was developed for wetlands plants. The organisms like worms, scuds, water fleas, mollusks,..... all could handle several orders of magnitude more boron than the plants. And the amount the wetlands plants (like cattails, sedges, rushes) was absolutely tiny compared to the amount we are throwing on our orchids in fertilizer.

Then there are places that have naturally high boron concentrations (with high Calcium concentrations) that wetlands plants grow just fine.

Now with K lite and kelp I don't have any paphs (including multis) having problems developing roots. And since my base water is virtually devoid of boron, then it seems that the boron level in K lite is adequate or compensated for with the kelp.


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## Rick (May 12, 2012)

http://www.ajol.info/index.php/wajae/article/viewFile/45717/29195

Here's an interesting link to a paper on boron in African coffee plantations.

Although it acknowledges the link between Boron and Calcium, it appears that organic content and pH are more influential for uptake of B than calcium concentration. Subsequently in soils that would normally be considered impoverished for boron for growing coffee, the plants with appropriate OC and pH environment demonstrated good leaf tissue Ca/B ratios despite the low soil boron concentrations.

Extrapolating the B concentration from % in K lite or MSU (0.2 mg/L B at 100ppm N application rate) it seems to be in the middle to lower end (concentration wise) of what would be considered normal for agricultural soils.

Considering this thread's focus was originally on Kelp extracts, the additional B and high OC of kelp extracts in conjunction with MSU levels of B should provide more than enough "bioavailable or bioactive" boron to do the job.


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## Rick (May 12, 2012)

Roth said:


> Final concentration in the feeding water (approximate) in ppm:
> Fe 0.3
> Mn 0.65
> Zn 0.3
> ...



If you are using K lite or standard MSU at 100ppm N then you should have 0.2 ppm B, which I wouldn't say that a factor of 0.44 is "vastly" less than the above.

Going back to pH though, Keithers mentioned that his pH is now always > than 5.9 s.u. But in the coffee paper, it appeared that boron uptake dropped significantly at pH greater than 5.8, and optimal boron uptake was at pH below 5.8 (which was where his pH used to be) regardless of calcium concentration.

So if all of Keithrs root growth or lack thereoff was related to B then yes his system was optimal when his pH was lower, and OC's from Kelp were present.


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## myxodex (May 14, 2012)

Anyone have any experience of BioAg's Cytoplus ... a blend of humates and kelp extract with micronutrients added ? Can't find a source for it this side of the pond ... and maybe better to have a humic/fulvic concentrate separate from kelp extract anyway, if you don't want to apply hormones regularly but want to leverage the chelating properties of fulvic more regularly.


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## Ray (May 15, 2012)

Looking into the Cytoplus, it appears to be leaning more to the cytokinins, rather than auxins - good for growth, no so much for rooting. There's a Cytoplus/worm tea comparison on pot plants that favored the worm tea.

If anyone is interested, I received a PDF slide show summary related to flowers from the Kelpak people.


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## Ray (May 15, 2012)

I inquired of the Kelpak folks about the specifics of their recommendations, and got the following response:

The reason why we recommend the 14 day interval is based on the responses we see. The effect to the roots in many plants we start seeing after about 7 days and the effect to top growth at about 14-20 days. The plant clearly is going through a series of responses and we would like to see the cycle completed, before we take the plant through that cycle again. The flush in roots is causing an increase in natural cytokinin production (as these hormones are produced only in root tips). The improved nutrient uptake, together with the higher cytokinin levels now promote shoot growth, flowering. If you keep applying an auxin dominant product such as Kelpak, you are not allowing the cytokinins to become dominant. So with appropriate time once the cytokinins was allowed to become dominant and trigger their typical responses, you can start applying auxins again, to take the plant through the next cycle. We have often seen less good results with weekly applications as compared to biweekly applications. We normally apply 2 biweekly applications when we want to boost the roots, then we would do two applications again when we want to initiate flowers and so forth.

The 1:500 dilution is what we found to be the lowest rate of Kelpak to cause a response in most plants. There are a few species that will respond to lower rates applied as a drench such as roses and here are a few species known that will need up to 1:300 to cause a rooting response. With flowers and especially herbaceous flowers we seem to get good responses with 1:400 to 1:300 dilutions applied as drenches. 

As for trying a rate of 1:1000, we certainly have seen an effect on roses, but with several species we have had no responses. I think you must determine yourself which of your species will still respond to such a low level of Kelpak. The theory is that you need a certain concentration of auxins on the outside of the cell membrane to allow transfer over the membrane by diffusion, to enter the cytoplasm of the plant where it will trigger the response.


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## Brian Monk (May 15, 2012)

I would caution anyone to view these statements about Boron in the light of the types of plants they are growing. Boron levels can be very high (can't rememeber exact PPM, but MUCH higher than surface water) in the deep wells in southern Florida, and resulted in a toxicity problem in my GH that eventaully resulted in the loss of over 75% of the intergeneric Oncidiinae collection.


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## Roth (May 16, 2012)

Brian Monk said:


> I would caution anyone to view these statements about Boron in the light of the types of plants they are growing. Boron levels can be very high (can't rememeber exact PPM, but MUCH higher than surface water) in the deep wells in southern Florida, and resulted in a toxicity problem in my GH that eventaully resulted in the loss of over 75% of the intergeneric Oncidiinae collection.



That's what I said already... Many growers experience a boron deficiency, and many growers experience a boron toxicity, that's why the fertilizer companies never include enough boron in the stuff they sell, because depending on the water and the potting mix, you can damage your entire nursery. I suspect that there are some oddballs too which require levels of boron that would be toxic to other species, like it happens for general horticulture. 

My water to start with has over 25ppm of boron from the well, that's why I process it down to 0ppm, then I add it back. However in Europe and many parts of the USA, there will be 0ppm to start with, same with RO water processed through a specific boron-removal setup, or some of the newer sea water/marsh water specific ROmembranes.

But if it is deficient, the symptoms are really dramatic, the same if it is in excess...


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## Ray (May 16, 2012)

There is a product now called "Mega Thrive" (formerly Turbo Thrive) that is a 3-0-3 (or 4) with extra boron and molybdenum, and is touted as a foliar booster.

Someone pointed me to a video on their Facebook page that is intended to describe its benefit, but it strikes me as being a really good descriptor of the benefits of high-auxin seaweed additives. https://www.facebook.com/megathrive


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## consettbay2003 (May 16, 2012)

Ray, as paphs are relatively slow growing, do you think that perhaps a 14 day cycle is too short for Kelpak use. You were told that in many plants the effect on roots is apparent after about 7 days - I can't imagine paphs responding that quickly. At the moment I use Kelpak ( 1 Tbs./ gallon ) every 14 days but have not used it long enough to make comments on it's befefits.


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## Ray (May 16, 2012)

consettbay2003 said:


> Ray, as paphs are relatively slow growing, do you think that perhaps a 14 day cycle is too short for Kelpak use. You were told that in many plants the effect on roots is apparent after about 7 days - I can't imagine paphs responding that quickly. At the moment I use Kelpak ( 1 Tbs./ gallon ) every 14 days but have not used it long enough to make comments on it's befefits.


That would assume I'm an expert in paph physiology, which I'm not....


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