# Methanol for paphs



## papheteer (Jan 6, 2014)

I read some stuff on another forum about the benefit of adding some methanol in fertilizer water for some orchids. Has anyone tried it for paphs and saw results? Also I happened to find Methyl Hydrate 99% in the Paint Section of Home Depot. Is this the same stuff as the methanol used? Thanks!


----------



## Ray (Jan 6, 2014)

Yes, methyl hydrate = methyl alcohol = methanol.

It seems unlikely it would be effective on paphs.


 The patent on the technology relates that it works on high-light plants only.
 One of the mechanisms for methanol's functioning I've heard speculated upon is akin to the sprinter - the limiting factor in a sprinter's speed being the ability of the body to pump sufficient blood to the muscles, supplying oxygen, and taking away byproducts. It has been theorized that a high light plant may "want to" photosynthesize at a very high rate, but cannot, due to a limitation in the delivery of "fuel" to the process - something supplemented by vascular methanol. In a lower-light plant, in which the rate of photosynthesis is limited by the light intensity, rather than fuel supply, that added fuel adds nothing.


----------



## naoki (Jan 6, 2014)

Interesting idea, Ray. But "fuel" to photosynthesis is light, CO2, H2O, ADP, and NADP, so how does methanol influence the fuel supply to photosynthesis? I was guessing that methanol influence the root cell membrane structure, and permeability might be influenced (so nutrient uptake might be higher across the outer layer of the cells). But low light plants are less likely to be limited by mineral nutrients, so the benefit of overloading the root cells with fertilizer doesn't influence the growth much. Is this what you meant: Growth of low light plants are more C-limited than the limitation of other mineral nutrients?


----------



## Eric Muehlbauer (Jan 6, 2014)

There used to be a fertilizer called Jerry's Grow. (Someone, was it Naoki? posted that they still use it.) It was loaded with methanol. I used it for a few years. It was terrible for paphs...they really hated it. So did phals. But epiphytes, cymbidiums, phrags and pleurothallids (the latter 2 at half dose) loved it. It was best on my pepper plants in pots...got really good flavor. I corresponded with Jerry about my bad luck using it on paphs. He said that results seemed to be regional...growers down south and in California reported good results, while northern growers like me all said they had bad results.


----------



## naoki (Jan 7, 2014)

That's me, Eric. I still have some left-over, and use it occasionally. Could the bad effect you saw be due to the lack of other nutrients? JG's label contains only N, P, K, so if NYC water is really pure, Ca & Mg might have been lacking. It's very interesting to know there is temperature dependence, though. 

Now I have RO and rain barrel, so I can't use it 100% of time. I'm just trying to use it up now by rotating with others. I didn't notice bad effects even when I was using it 100% in NC 10 years ago. Well, I wouldn't have noticed subtle effects of fertilizers because the other growing condition for paphs was probably sub-optimal (due to my inexperience).


----------



## Ray (Jan 7, 2014)

Naoki - the enhanced cell wall permeability was my thought, but an orchid-growing veterenarian I know suggested the "fuel" scenario - methanol certainly contains more carbon than does air.


----------



## NYEric (Jan 7, 2014)

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...&mid=19FF25457CE8B4406D2E19FF25457CE8B4406D2E


----------



## naoki (Jan 7, 2014)

haha, just like our 2-year old son, whose default answer is 'no'. Eric (NYEric), you didn't have good results with Jerry's, neither?


----------



## TyroneGenade (Jan 7, 2014)

Plants can use methanol as a carbon source unlike us to whom methanol is deadly poisonous stuff. So, methanol is used to fuel plant metabolism to make sugars and other intermediary metabolites.

http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/123/1/287.abstract

Methanol is toxic to us and I would advise *against *its use in confined spaces or anywhere where a toddler may grab a bottle and take a drink.


----------



## naoki (Jan 7, 2014)

Ray said:


> Naoki - the enhanced cell wall permeability was my thought, but an orchid-growing veterenarian I know suggested the "fuel" scenario - methanol certainly contains more carbon than does air.



Thanks, Ray. At first, I thought this doesn't make sense, but my quick check shows that this occurs. I learned a new thing today! The original patent (of Jerry's grow) didn't have explanation of why methanol is useful.

http://pelagiaresearchlibrary.com/e...biology/vol2-iss5/EJEB-2012-2-5-1697-1702.pdf

I don't completely understand it, and the paper is about methanol foliar spray. Methanol gets absorbed into leaf tissues rapidly, and they get metabolized into CO2, which can be used for photosynthesis. So it is providing high CO2 to O2 ratio in the leaf tissue. For Chick peas, 25 (v/v) % of methanol was the best (tested between 0 and 35%).

Also the benefit of methanol is magnified when the plant is under drought stress according to this paper. Under drought, the plants can't open stomata, and concentration of O2 in the leaf becomes high. The relative ratio of CO2:O2 determines whether photosynthesis (which assimilates CO2 into sugar) or photorespiration (which wastes the assimilated sugar for no good reason) occurs. So during the drought, high O2 concentration in leaves causes the wasteful photorespiration. Boosting the CO2 level by foliar methanol minimizes this wasteful reaction.

This explains why the effects of methanol may depend on light intensity (more effective in high light), temperature (more effective in heat), water availability (more effective in drought condition), and humidity (more effective in low humidity). Basically, methanol works well in 'bad'/difficult growing condition (and when C (not other mineral nutrients) is the limiting factor of the growth).

For example, EricM's observation that it worked ok with pleurothallids may be because these plants like super high humidity, but most of us can't provide 90-100%RH. (Some) Phrags like constant water, and even though we give lots of water, they might be feeling like drought. This doesn't explain why Paphs hated it, though.

Since CAM plants have a different way to deal with photorespiration problem, advantage of methanol may be reduced (compared to C3 plants).


----------



## MaryPientka (Jan 7, 2014)

Would methanol be useful for chlorotic plants?


----------



## NYEric (Jan 7, 2014)

naoki said:


> haha, just like our 2-year old son, whose default answer is 'no'. Eric (NYEric), you didn't have good results with Jerry's, neither?



No, not that, I just wouldn't add another factor into plant feeding.


----------



## naoki (Jan 8, 2014)

MaryPientka said:


> Would methanol be useful for chlorotic plants?



Mary, if the main benefit of methanol is to help photosynthesis, it's unlikely to address chlorosis. But Tyrone's link suggests that methanol may help other aspects of plant growth, so I don't know.


----------

