# Urgently need advices for my paph x phrag



## Hien (Jul 3, 2009)

Around June 2005 I sent a few of my paph x phrag seed pods to 2 labs.
Of all the seeds under microscope exam at the time, all seems to not having embryo. But they were flasked anyway just in case some escaped the notice.
5 year later , last month I received the email from Dawn & Ken Mettler of Rockbridge Lab, with wonderful new that one plant did germinate.
I was asking if they can divide the plant and replate to make more, but they advice me to plant it instead, since one growth has the leaf measure at 3inch (single leaf length).
The problem is after received the flask, I delay deflasking to get all the small growths catch up (very bad decision of mine).
Unfortunately, today, I notice the leaves start to look rotten. I deflask immediately.
What do I do now, trim the wet leaves to the dry parts , or hope that the rot will not spread (the problem is I will have to mist it regularly to keep the seedling alive)


----------



## biothanasis (Jul 3, 2009)

Hmmm!! I have no idea what could be done after deflasking, but surely it would be better to keep them in high humidity of air, but not misting! small drops of water do great damage! Also I would carefully remove the rotten parts! Additionally I think that it would be helpful to gradually acclimatize the seedlings, but I am not sure if it is ok to start now! 

I wish you good luck!!!!!!


----------



## cnycharles (Jul 4, 2009)

you should definitely remove any rotten tissue. some people use a dilute solution of hydrogen peroxide to sterilize rot when it doesn't involve the roots of plants. either that or you could use a fungicide like banrot or clearys to stop the rot (but the rotten parts should definitely be removed no matter what)


----------



## Jim Toomey (Jul 4, 2009)

Hi,

1. Use a NEW razor blade and cut into the healthy tissue, scissors can crush the leaves. When I cut something off a plant I throw the blade away each time, very cheap compare to the cost of the plant.

2. Dust with an anti-fungal, cinnamon is a fairly cheap and handy anti-fungal.

3. Depending on how long they have been deflasked you may want to either invert a larger pot over the compot to keep humidity relatively high.

Or

If they are in a high humidity environment, keep them in a very, very gentle breeze.

4. If they continue to degrade, you may want to go ahead and separate them and repot them individually to increase the survival rate.

4. Water the pot, not the leaves.

I hope this helps some.

Best of luck and please let us know how they do.
Jim T


----------



## NYEric (Jul 4, 2009)

Phragmepaphium; you mad scientist! Put me down for one!  Good luck! keep us posted.


----------



## Hien (Jul 4, 2009)

The wet areas definitely are spreading compare to yesterday.
Down from tip of leaves toward the base.
It is too dark now to do the operation, I will do the trimming tomorrow.
Will use blade as advice.
I would be very upset, if this plant dies because I had leave it in the flask too long. :sob:One plant from so many seeds.

Thank you for the helps everyone.


----------



## Hien (Jul 5, 2009)

Do the trimming and dusting this morning. However the plant is so small, some leaves down at the base are impossible to reach, so I have to take a chance and let them rot.
The seedling looks as if it had a bad crew cut.
Barely any leaves left untouched. I am not sure it will survive. The largest growth is gone, most other leaves now down to 1/2 inch.
And yes, Eric, if by any chance it survives, I will cut you a division.


----------



## Hien (Jul 5, 2009)

Forget to post the image of the hair cut


----------



## ohio-guy (Jul 5, 2009)

Actually, for a seedling, I think it looks pretty good. Good luck on growing it out!
What were the parent species if I may ask?
Were they diploid. or tetraploid?


----------



## Hien (Jul 5, 2009)

ohio-guy said:


> Actually, for a seedling, I think it looks pretty good. Good luck on growing it out!
> What were the parent species if I may ask?
> Were they diploid. or tetraploid?



The mother is phrag and the father is paph, though, I did many crosses (rarely the plants produce seed pods, that year, pure luck, the phrags decided to produce a few pods, however only one seedling germinated) so I will have to dig it up from the record to be sure the species involves. But one thing I am sure of is that I always do weird crosses, with what ever flowers at the time( most of the times not even to its own closely related species or genera) for the curiosity, fun in it.

Like Oncidium intergeneric w/ phals (which carry the pod only a while then abort) The reverse cross, the phalaenopsis rejected it right away.)
I did phal w/ dendrobium
cattleya w/ oncidium
renanthera w/ dendrobium.
Etc... Just kid stuff. not serious (althought I am no longer young)


----------



## biothanasis (Jul 5, 2009)

Hien said:


> Like Oncidium intergeneric w/ phals (which carry the pod only a while then abort) The reverse cross, the phalaenopsis rejected it right away.)
> I did phal w/ dendrobium
> cattleya w/ oncidium
> renanthera w/ dendrobium.
> Etc... Just what kid stuff.



You really are a crazy scientist

Btw, I find that Listerine (mouthwash) is a great disinfectant for the plant tissue, but I do not know if it won't hurt the tender tissues of the seedling! It works on mature plants!


----------



## Fabrice (Jul 5, 2009)

Good luck!

Which phrag with which paph please?


----------



## NYEric (Jul 5, 2009)

Hien is Ms. Frankenstein!


----------



## Hien (Jul 5, 2009)

Fabrice said:


> Good luck!
> 
> Which phrag with which paph please?


 There is a big chance that the phrag mother is a Don Wimber (because I have a lot of them from Piping Rock at the time), if my memory is reliable, without turning the house upside looking for the written record (I am a PackRat)
The paph is tougher to guess because I don't have many plants of the same type, but all different paph species (I just know that none of the paph carries the pod long enough, they aborted their pods after a month or two, It could also mean that they were too young/weak to carry the seed pods), I will have to defer the answer until I could dig the record up.
Wish I input those crosses in the computer like I am doing now. All of the weird ones I am doing this year are input in the computer, and update right away so which one aborts the flowers/pods too many times, I won't use it again.
This is so painful to watch this only plant fighting for life.


----------



## paphioboy (Jul 6, 2009)

Umm.. Hien, I suggest you might want to experiment with intergeneric crosses that are more closely related.. pollinated eulophia and geodorum and geodorum and phaius because I thought they might be related. The seed pod developed halfway and then dropped off. But to cross phals with oncidiums? I think they have diverged so far apart that evolution never meant them to see each other again..


----------



## Hien (Jul 6, 2009)

paphioboy said:


> Umm.. Hien, I suggest you might want to experiment with intergeneric crosses that are more closely related.. pollinated eulophia and geodorum and geodorum and phaius because I thought they might be related. The seed pod developed halfway and then dropped off. But to cross phals with oncidiums? I think they have diverged so far apart that evolution never meant them to see each other again..


 Actually one of the oncidium did take the phal pollen and right now the seed pod is growing, fat & green, so I will have to wait to see if it will abort later or most of the seeds will be emty of embryo (which is most of the time, from what I heard).
These two species are so far apart geographically as well.


----------



## NYEric (Jul 7, 2009)

She's cwazy! :crazy:


----------



## tenman (Jul 21, 2009)

There have been a couple of putative phragmipaphiums but I have yet to see proof that they were what they claimed. Flowers would be such proof, but I haven't seen any such (not that they aren't out there; I just haven't seen them yet). Often they have turned out to be selfings through the unknown vector of an insect. I hope yours turns out to be what you hope for, and look forward to seeing the flowers.


----------



## valenzino (Nov 5, 2009)

tenman said:


> There have been a couple of putative phragmipaphiums but I have yet to see proof that they were what they claimed. Flowers would be such proof, but I haven't seen any such (not that they aren't out there; I just haven't seen them yet). Often they have turned out to be selfings through the unknown vector of an insect. I hope yours turns out to be what you hope for, and look forward to seeing the flowers.



I have done quite a few succesfull germinating Phragmipaphium hybrids.(some of themh.Don Wimber x armeniacum,Ph.boisserianum x sanderianum,Ph.Longifolium x concolor)Unfortunately I lost all seedlings last year cause of a violent spider mites attach while I was away,but my laboratory still have few protocorms in motherflasks that have to be replated.
Is easy to see if its a selfing or not.
The only way to succed with this hybrid is use Phrag as pod parent,but the outcome will take 90% Paphs genetic...so also if the pod parent is a Phrag,the outcome will be a Paph like plant(based on my experience and on literature about Phragmipaphiums and so if the outcome is Phrag like plant probably was a phrag self fertile pod).
I think your plant leaves are becomeing black not for illness but for carency of some elements and bad balance roots/leaves.
Disinfect plants with a mild solution of systemic copper based anti fungi/bacterial product and keep them in very humid environment but well ventilated and dont water the leaves.Pay attention also in light...keep it low.
Good luck and hope you will got a new Phragmipaphium to register!!!
Pay attention that the biggest problems found by breeders with this hybrids was always in deflasking.


----------



## tim (Nov 5, 2009)

heehee based on those roots i'd say you got yourself a nice cattleya flask there!!


----------



## paphioboy (Nov 6, 2009)

No!!!! Stop the breeding of phragmipaphiums.. Just kidding..  But seriously, if these intergeneric hybrids prove fertile, those botanists might consider reclassifying paphs and phrags into a single genus.. The horror!


----------



## Roth (Nov 6, 2009)

I discussed two weeks ago with one of the judges that has seen Phragmipaphium Hane's Magic. He is one of the most skilled breeders anyone can think of, and for him it was sure that the plant was not a pure paph or a pure phrag. The chromosomes were those of a paph, but with some 'abnomalities' that were never explained - anyway it was in the early days, so chromosome counting was possible, to check if some satellite dna was around and could make up for a difference was out of question -

He told me that no paph parents could have done such an hybrid... The plant died some years later, but was growing quite vigorously before...


----------



## NYEric (Nov 6, 2009)

I think genetically it's quite possible, look at the lion/tiger hybrid! 
I think in a way it would be the best of both worlds but...there could be some real hideons!!


----------



## paphioboy (Nov 7, 2009)

Kovachii x sanderianum... :drool::drool: Or roth x besseae.. :drool::drool:


----------



## SlipperFan (Nov 7, 2009)

paphioboy said:


> Kovachii x sanderianum... :drool::drool: Or roth x besseae.. :drool::drool:



sanderianum x caudatum


----------



## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 7, 2009)

Its hard to imagine...the chromosomes are so completely different...lions and tigers are still in the same genus (Panthera) and separated by a few million years of evolution...but paphs and phrags have very different chromosomes, and are not only in different genera but geographically isolated for many million years of evolution. Take care, Eric


----------



## valenzino (Nov 7, 2009)

SlipperFan said:


> sanderianum x caudatum



sargentianum x rothschildianum 
kovachii x hangianum
schlimi x delenati (flowers incredibly similar,see link).

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/3512599490/sizes/l/


----------



## NYEric (Nov 8, 2009)

schlimii x delenatii! Think of the money I could save!


----------



## SlipperFan (Nov 8, 2009)

Interesting comparison, valenzino.


----------

