# wardii



## labskaus (Jul 15, 2009)

Got this from Ebay in early bud. It was offered as wardii "Tagara Dark Wing" x self, but the label reads only Dark Wing.
The "Tagara Dark Wing" got several awards in Japan, but looks quite different from mine. Shape is much better but flower is lighter, there is no red in the dorsal of the Tagara plant at all. Mine may be from Hilmar Bauchs "Dark Wing" strain from Germany which looks similar.
I'm very happy with the colour, it is the darkest wardii I've seen so far. In fact its a tad darker than in the pic.


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## Faan (Jul 15, 2009)

Nice red coloration.


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## GuRu (Jul 15, 2009)

"Tagara Dark Wing" x self or not - it looks beautiful and you like it and that's the most important thing. I would be pleased with it too.

Best regards, rudolf


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## biothanasis (Jul 15, 2009)

Amazing!!!


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## SlipperFan (Jul 15, 2009)

It's ugly -- you should send it to me right away for disposal. :wink:


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## KyushuCalanthe (Jul 15, 2009)

Wow, fantastic color indeed!


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## SlipperKing (Jul 17, 2009)

Interesting, most I've seen have much more green in the background. Yours is white


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## emydura (Jul 18, 2009)

SlipperKing said:


> Interesting, most I've seen have much more green in the background. Yours is white



I agree. The dorsal is very different. 

David


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## TyroneGenade (Jul 18, 2009)

There seems to be some variation in the flower colors of this species. See here:
http://www.speciesorchids.com/PAPHIOPEDILUMWARDIICHINADOLL.html
http://www.speciesorchids.com/PaphiopedilumWardiiChinaGreen.html


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## Roth (Jul 18, 2009)

TyroneGenade said:


> There seems to be some variation in the flower colors of this species. See here:
> http://www.speciesorchids.com/PAPHIOPEDILUMWARDIICHINADOLL.html
> http://www.speciesorchids.com/PaphiopedilumWardiiChinaGreen.html



China Doll is obviously a Maudiae type hybrid x wardii...

For Labskaus plant, I am pretty sure it is an hybrid involving purpuratum, I remember having seen something similar some years ago...


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## NYEric (Jul 18, 2009)

I don't have much experience w/ this species but I was thinking to myself that it does not look like the few I've seen.


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## TyroneGenade (Jul 18, 2009)

Sanderianum said:


> China Doll is obviously a Maudiae type hybrid x wardii...



Why do you say this? Can't there be variation in the species? The only difference between China Doll and China Green is the coloring in the dorsal.

Here is a Satchel Paige: http://www.rv-orchidworks.com/orchi...8179-paph-satchel-paige-brennans-orchids.html

Yes, it has the same dorsal colors but look what effect the Maudiae cross has had on the petals, how more diffuse the spotting is? Again, this is callosum x wardii: http://www.slipperorchid.com/other_orchids/Paph_callosum_GreenGuard_X_wardii_PotLuck_Free_2.jpg Again, notice the change in the petal spotting.

Here are 3 more wardii:
http://www.slipperorchid.com/other_orchids/Paph_wardii_b_Free_1.jpg
http://www.slipperorchid.com/other_orchids/Paph_wardii_Free_2.jpg
http://www.slipperorchid.com/other_orchids/Paph_wardii_PotluckXself_Free_2.jpg (notice the occurrence of the pink flaring on the edge of the dorsal in this selfing)

Why can't we be looking at natural variation?


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## Roth (Jul 18, 2009)

TyroneGenade said:


> Why do you say this? Can't there be variation in the species? The only difference between China Doll and China Green is the coloring in the dorsal.



There is not that much variation in this species, and I have seen some hundreds plants in bloom if not more, both from the wild in Baoshan and from seed... 



> Yes, it has the same dorsal colors but look what effect the Maudiae cross has had on the petals, how more diffuse the spotting is? Again, this is callosum x wardii: http://www.slipperorchid.com/other_orchids/Paph_callosum_GreenGuard_X_wardii_PotLuck_Free_2.jpg Again, notice the change in the petal spotting.



Let's say a maudiae group hybrid to be correct, but for sure it is an hybrid, I have never seen a wild wardii like that.

Here are 3 more wardii:
http://www.slipperorchid.com/other_orchids/Paph_wardii_b_Free_1.jpg
http://www.slipperorchid.com/other_orchids/Paph_wardii_Free_2.jpg
http://www.slipperorchid.com/other_orchids/Paph_wardii_PotluckXself_Free_2.jpg (notice the occurrence of the pink flaring on the edge of the dorsal in this selfing)

Why can't we be looking at natural variation?[/QUOTE]

The last one Pot Luck x self is not likely to be a wardii as well, should be some argus thrown in the mix or something similar. The first two ones are real wardii. 

With Labskaus wardii, I know a little more about thoses plants. If they come from Hilmar Bausch, he bought a large part of Kenntner plants in Germany. And coincidentally, Kenntner had many primary hybrids growing in Van der Weijden nursery in Kudelstaart, Netherlands. That's where I have seen trays and trays of fake wardii, that were the wardii x purpuratum...


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## SlipperKing (Jul 19, 2009)

I have to agree with Sanderianum. Carstens flower does show a strong purpuratum like influence to the dorsal and pouch. The 'China Doll' and 'China Green' are clearly hybrids
Here is a cross I maded years ago


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## SlipperKing (Jul 19, 2009)

A few more to add.
The same cross, different clone. Supersuk X wardii




another one




A different Maudiae type X wardii, F. Coyner





And my wardii


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## SlipperFan (Jul 19, 2009)

Mmmmmm, looks like washed silver! They are beautiful.


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## TyroneGenade (Jul 20, 2009)

Hmm... A very interesting discussion and a very good line of evidence as well.

Thanks for entertaining my curiosity.


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## breeindy (Jul 20, 2009)

Here's my maudiae x wardii that has not long finished flowering. One of my favourite coloured and long lasting flowering paphs. Doesn't look much like the others though...


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## breeindy (Jul 20, 2009)

woops! heres the pic..


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## SlipperKing (Jul 21, 2009)

Welcome to the forum Breeindy and thanks for adding to the discussion. I'm curious as to how certain you are about the parents of your plant? Not that it couldn't be the parents you mentioned but the spotting on the petals are not what comes to mind when I think of a wardii hybrid.


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## breeindy (Jul 21, 2009)

im not certain,only going off what came on the tag.


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## labskaus (Jul 22, 2009)

This has been a very interesting discussion indeed. Thanks a lot to all of you for your input!
Well, after I read the first comments here who doubted the identity of this Paph, I did some research and now I'm trying to answer to those with doubts in a strictly arbitrary order.

breeindy's flower has no wardii in it that I can see, I rather see a Maudiae-type hybrid with mastersianum influence.

Rick showed very nicely how close a wardii hybrid can look like the parent species. I would have guessed his Supersuk x wardii # 3 is a straight wardii.

I disagree with sanderianum that wardii is a relatively uniform species. I haven't been to the habitat, but I've seen my share of wardiis at shows and in nurseries. The wardii pitures at Stephen Manzas site demonstrate how diverse this species is (www.slipperorchids.info).
Let's go into detail:
This is another picture of my flower taken in a different light. What remains unusual for me is the lack of green in the flower that Rick mentioned, the shape of the dorsal, and the colour of the dorsal.







This is the centre of the flower. The staminode looks typical wardii to me. Purpuratum has a staminode shield that is much broader than high. Right in the centre the petals are green, that colour is just overlaid by purple further on. If you look at Sam Tsuis web page, for example, he has photos of wardiis that have almost solid red-brown petals. The dusting in the lower part of the dorsal appears to be not so rare in wardii, since I found a few pictures of wardii with these spots by google.






Just the dorsal. I agree it is pretty flat, but from this angle the shape looks wardii-like enough to me. Most wardiis have a smallish, cupped dorsal that gives them a "natural" look. Ricks wardii is a nice example. Many linebred, awarded wardiis have a larger, flat dorsal.
What is most unusual is the veining. This flower has relatively few (16) rather thick veins with a lot of purple in them. Also, the veining is a bit irregular for a wardii. I have to admit that I haven't found a picture that clearly shows dark purple veins in the dorsal the way my flower has them. Gildas plant shown at Stephens site may be a candidate, and a few more I found by google. But, in many cases the pictures were of awful quality or heavily altered, so I simply can't tell.






I think the number of veins and pattern are in the normal range for wardii. Number of veins is usually between 16 and 22 (counted numerous google pictures). The veining can be a bit irregular especially in line-bred flowers as well. Look at these Japanese plants for different veining:

http://images.google.de/imgres?imgu...=paph+wardii&ndsp=20&hl=de&sa=N&start=80&um=1

I already mentioned that I believe my plant to be of Hilmar Bauchs breeding. Here are links to three examples of his Dark Wing strain:

http://digilander.libero.it/uparis/mostre/mporzio2001/mp2001_190.jpg

http://www.tropical-paradise.ch/index.php?id=772

http://www.paphiopedilumworld.de/shop/pic/pages/10060%20p.%20wardii%20%B4Darkwing%B4.htm

All three are pretty similar, and all three have veins in the dorsal which are purple at the base, and to some extend further up. I admit that, despite the colour, the dorsal of all three looks like what I'd expect from wardii.

I emailed the Ebay vendor who sold me the plant but haven't got a reply. The unique substrate the plant is in tells me that he bought the plant from one particular nursery in Western Germany.
I emailed Hilmar as well. He confirmed that two years ago he had sold a batch of wardiis to that nursery. He also identified that plant as one of his, possibly of the F2 generation. He stated that "some of those early ones were pretty red". This comment leaves me a bit uneasy, actually. China Doll comes to mind.
Hilmar says that he got his motherplants about 15 years ago, and he is now at the F4 generation of breeding those. According to him, Kenntner never had any of those wardiis and his plants were not from Kenntner. He obtained the plants from somebody else who is well connected and imports plants frequently. It is unlikely that this source of the plants intended to buy hybrids. But, remember Paph. dixlerianum. One simply can't exclude the chance that someone somewhere "stretched" an order of species with a batch of man-made hybrids.

Last, regarding sanderianums idea of my plant being a purpuratum hybrid.
Well, the hybrid purpuratum x wardii is called Dale Edward Lawless and I found only one picture of it. Sorry for the size:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_y8Q8lCmyg...h/Paph.DaleEdwardLawless.ThreeKings.light.jpg

That one is a purpuratum hybrid: almost solid pouch colour, wide, oval petals almost held horizontal and the typical, reflexed dorsal. I can see very little of that in my flower. Also look at the leaves, tesselation yes but no wardii-snake skin. Mine has a typical wardii-pattern on its leaves. Of course Rick showed how wardii-heavy such a hybrid can be, but I'm still not convinced.

Conclusion: for the time being I'll treat my plant as an unusual wardii but keep you guys concerns in mind. You just can't be 100% sure of what you get.

Best wishes,


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## Rick (Jul 22, 2009)

I think that the characters of this flower may be different with different nutrition and potting mix.

Try some additional phosphate and Mg (from epson salts) and see if it reduces red/dark pigment.

How much anthocyanin pigment is in the underside of the leaves?


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## SlipperFan (Jul 22, 2009)

I think you are safe with wardii, Carsten. The photos are indeed similar to yours, and the staminode of the hybrid is very different, IMO.


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## labskaus (Jul 23, 2009)

Rick said:


> I think that the characters of this flower may be different with different nutrition and potting mix.
> 
> Try some additional phosphate and Mg (from epson salts) and see if it reduces red/dark pigment.
> 
> How much anthocyanin pigment is in the underside of the leaves?



Good idea, Rick,

I'm going to repot after flowering anyway, and wanted to try the epsom salt for a while now. Need to get some high-P fertilizer, still.
Foliage ist not "darker" than my other wardiis, just the last leaf looks pretty pale (bleached out) which I attribute to the potting mix/fertilizer issue.

Thanks Rick, and thanks Dot,


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