# Paphiopedilum x herrmannii



## Phred (Jul 23, 2020)

I have a number of these and this is a first time bloom for this one. It’s a very dark flower and I think a cross with a nice concolor might be cool.


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## DrLeslieEe (Jul 23, 2020)

Nice one.

What do you mean by concolor? All yellow or all brown?


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## Phred (Jul 23, 2020)

Paphiopedilum concolor


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## Ozpaph (Jul 24, 2020)

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
Love it just the way it is with great colour.


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## Guldal (Jul 24, 2020)

Great colours! Do you know it's parentage?


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## setaylien (Jul 24, 2020)

Phred said:


> I have a number of these and this is a first time bloom for this one. It’s a very dark flower and I think a cross with a nice concolor might be cool.
> 
> View attachment 21413
> View attachment 21414


It is possible that the "x" should not be there. Dr. Olaf Gruss amongst others considers it a valid species. It has been proposed that it is a natural hybrid between Paph. helenae and P. esquirolei, but I see no influence of esquirolei in this flower.  I have one in bloom at the moment and its colour is similar to yours but with more green in the dorsal sepal and more purple in the pouch. I turned it while the bud was developing so the dorsal sepal came out angulated to one side so I will not post it on this flowering. 
For people who have not seen an actual plant in flower, it is surprisingly small and plants that appear small seedlings are actually blooming size with a leaf span of only around 9" and a flower width of just 2.5".


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## DrLeslieEe (Jul 25, 2020)

Phred said:


> Paphiopedilum concolor


I think concolor will wash out the colors from this flower. It will be advantageous to maintain the deep pink of pouch with henryanum or dorsal size with charlesworthii (while maintaining a dark pouch). Unless you want a peach colored flower?


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## DrLeslieEe (Jul 25, 2020)

setaylien said:


> It is possible that the "x" should not be there. Dr. Olaf Gruss amongst others considers it a valid species. It has been proposed that it is a natural hybrid between Paph. helenae and P. esquirolei, but I see no influence of esquirolei in this flower. I have one in bloom at the moment and its colour is similar to yours but with more green in the dorsal sepal and more purple in the pouch. I turned it while the bud was developing so the dorsal sepal came out angulated to one side so I will not post it on this flowering.
> For people who have not seen an actual plant in flower, it is surprisingly small and plants that appear small seedlings are actually blooming size with a leaf span of only around 9" and a flower width of just 2.5".


Sometimes natural hybrids will stabilize into its own and be relegated to species status (such as wenshanense). Such will happen in this case. 

I definitely see henryanum in the background of this hermanii, possibly villosum (or one of its variety) as the second parent. I agree with Setaylien that hirsutissinum is an unlikely co-parent.


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## Phred (Jul 25, 2020)

Guldal said:


> Great colours! Do you know it's parentage?


Sorry for the delay... just catching up. The label did not give the parentage so I’ve no idea on this one.


setaylien said:


> It is possible that the "x" should not be there. Dr. Olaf Gruss amongst others considers it a valid species. It has been proposed that it is a natural hybrid between Paph. helenae and P. esquirolei, but I see no influence of esquirolei in this flower. I have one in bloom at the moment and its colour is similar to yours but with more green in the dorsal sepal and more purple in the pouch. I turned it while the bud was developing so the dorsal sepal came out angulated to one side so I will not post it on this flowering.
> For people who have not seen an actual plant in flower, it is surprisingly small and plants that appear small seedlings are actually blooming size with a leaf span of only around 9" and a flower width of just 2.5".


Hello setaylien,
I believe the “x” is there to designate that this is a species resulting from the natural cross between two species in nature that has stabilized to the point of receiving species status. If I were to cross the two species myself the “x” would not be there.


DrLeslieEe said:


> I think concolor will wash out the colors from this flower. It will be advantageous to maintain the deep pink of pouch with henryanum or dorsal size with charlesworthii (while maintaining a dark pouch). Unless you want a peach colored flower?


Hi leslie
The purpose of crossing to concolor or something like it would be to widen the petals. Both henryanum and charlesworthii have thin petals much like this x hermannii does and I would likely end up with more of the same.


DrLeslieEe said:


> Sometimes natural hybrids will stabilize into its own and be relegated to species status (such as wenshanense). Such will happen in this case.
> 
> I definitely see henryanum in the background of this hermanii, possibly villosum (or one of its variety) as the second parent. I agree with Setaylien that hirsutissinum is an unlikely co-parent.


Last reply... lol
I believe x hermannii is the result of helenae and hirsutissimum esquirolei and the following are my reasons:
The dorsal is more like hirsutissimum than henryanum both in color and shape. The dorsal bending forward is a helenae trait that is very dominant. When looking at a hybrid you can say one plant parent is more likely than another based on the traits expressed in the plant before you. That’s not necessarily possible when looking at a natural hybrid that may have taken years and years of crossing back and forth to the point that it stabilizes to the level considered species. If I bred helenae to hirsutissimum the offspring would be variable... the first test of a species. Some would have traits of one parent, some the other and maybe some a mix between... In that cross I’m sure you might see some obvious hirsutissimum traits.


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## Phred (Aug 5, 2020)

Well I made a cross... tell me what you think. x hermannii x concolor fma. chlorophyllum.


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## DrLeslieEe (Aug 5, 2020)

Be interesting to see outcome... which is pod parent?


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## Phred (Aug 5, 2020)

DrLeslieEe said:


> Be interesting to see outcome... which is pod parent?


x hermannii is the pod parent... bred leaving the pouch on.


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## DrLeslieEe (Aug 5, 2020)

The concolor should improve for the rounder shape with splashes of color from the xhermannii. Kinda like art shades.


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## setaylien (Aug 6, 2020)

Phred said:


> Sorry for the delay... just catching up. The label did not give the parentage so I’ve no idea on this one.
> 
> Hello setaylien,
> I believe the “x” is there to designate that this is a species resulting from the natural cross between two species in nature that has stabilized to the point of receiving species status. If I were to cross the two species myself the “x” would not be there.
> ...


Thanks for your input but, seriously, I find many of your speculations are yet to be proven.


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## Phred (Aug 6, 2020)

setaylien said:


> Thanks for your input but, seriously, I find many of your speculations are yet to be proven


Lol... I’m not sure I speculated about anything.


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## setaylien (Aug 6, 2020)

Phred said:


> Lol... I don’t think I speculated about anything. The experts have said the natural hybrid was between helenae and hirsutissimum var. esqhi


Not all "experts" are in agreement. You should see the informed opinions of Dr. Olaf Gruss regarding Paph. hermannii: he makes a very logical case for it being "a good species" and not a hybrid at all. Averyanov et al. were only speculating when they stated their belief that it was suspected to be a natural hybrid: actually, this has never been proven.


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## Phred (Aug 6, 2020)

setaylien said:


> It is possible that the "x" should not be there. Dr. Olaf Gruss amongst others considers it a valid species.


Dr. Olaf Gruss and others are correct that Paphiopedilum x hermannii is a species. But there has to be a way to differentiate between a new species that has been discovered and a natural hybrid that has been elevated to species status... Since all species are not the result of natural hybridization the ‘x’ tells us just that. .


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## Phred (Aug 6, 2020)

setaylien said:


> Not all "experts" are in agreement. You should see the informed opinions of Dr. Olaf Gruss regarding Paph. hermannii: he makes a very logical case for it being "a good species" and not a hybrid at all. Averyanov et al. were only speculating when they stated their belief that it was suspected to be a natural hybrid: actually, this has never been proven.


Thanks... I’ll check that out.


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## Pinebark (Aug 6, 2020)

Stunning!


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## GuRu (Aug 17, 2020)

Beautiful P. hermanii and a similar dark clone as mine which I showed here in November 2018 Paph. hermanii. 
Though some taxonomist see it as a stabilized natural hybrid.......I'm with Setaylien and Olaf Gruß....in my humble opinion it is a true species...but who knows really?


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## Phred (Aug 17, 2020)

I'm perfectly fine with (x) hermanii being a species either way... as long as it's a species I'm happy. I wish my others would bloom now.


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## Ozpaph (Aug 18, 2020)

i think you will end up with disappointing muddy coloured flowers, if the pod takes at all.


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