# Phrag Kovachii awarded



## ehanes7612 (Nov 19, 2011)

this plant grown by Jerry Hoffmeister

received an 87 point AM/AOS.i sat in as an observer, according to AQ only CHM previous award for a kovachii...from a glenn decker flask


----------



## e-spice (Nov 19, 2011)

That's a pretty one. I think if that one is AM quality, there was one from Orchids Limited that Robert posted that should have been FCC awarded.


----------



## Shiva (Nov 19, 2011)

If a plant is to be awarded, it has to be judged first.
I would be more than happy with this one. :drool: Great growing Jerry!


----------



## Rick (Nov 19, 2011)

Great color and big spread.

Do you know what the flower span is?


----------



## ehanes7612 (Nov 19, 2011)

Rick said:


> Great color and big spread.
> 
> Do you know what the flower span is?



i think it is 13 cm x 10 cm


----------



## toddybear (Nov 19, 2011)

Wow!


----------



## SlipperFan (Nov 19, 2011)

That's beautiful. But I don't believe the color.


----------



## John M (Nov 19, 2011)

It's very beautiful! It'd be nice if that were the true colour; but, I'm with Dot right now. The colour just seems too intense and too blue. Of course, I've never seen a kovachii in person; so, I'm hoping my impressions are wrong and colour like this does actually exist with this species. I've got some seedlings that originated from Glen Decker and if I got something like this, I'd be thrilled!

It is just me; or is an 87 point AM a bit high? I mean, we've all seen better shaped flowers (flatter, fuller), by now and 13 cm's is only about 5 inches....for a species reported to have flowers as large as ~9 inches. So, what's the reasoning for 87 points?

This Phrag. kovachii thread is in the Paph gallery. I wonder if Heather can move it to the Phrag gallery so that it will show up in future reference searches?


----------



## SlipperFan (Nov 19, 2011)

Good idea, John. It's done -- with a redirect that will expire in a month. But it will always be in the Phrag photo section.


----------



## ehanes7612 (Nov 19, 2011)

John M said:


> It's very beautiful! It'd be nice if that were the true colour; but, I'm with Dot right now. The colour just seems too intense and too blue. Of course, I've never seen a kovachii in person; so, I'm hoping my impressions are wrong and colour like this does actually exist with this species. I've got some seedlings that originated from Glen Decker and if I got something like this, I'd be thrilled!
> 
> It is just me; or is an 87 point AM a bit high? I mean, we've all seen better shaped flowers (flatter, fuller), by now and 13 cm's is only about 5 inches....for a species reported to have flowers as large as ~9 inches. So, what's the reasoning for 87 points?



one of the benefits of no previous quality awards...difficult to compare gainst just pictures on the internet and the northwest doesnt have the benefit oif having seen these in bloom as much as some areas


----------



## Orchidzrule (Nov 19, 2011)

ehanes7612 said:


> and the northwest doesnt have the benefit oif having seen these in bloom as much as some areas



I think this underlines a problem with any "new" plant, be it a species like kovachii, or the first bulldog paphs or harlequin phals. Judges are fallible and their enthusiasm colors their judgement when they first see them. You almost need someone who hates everything (is there no Simon Cowell amongst AOS judges?) to bring the others down to earth. I'm sort of tongue-in-cheek with the previous sentence, but you get the idea.


----------



## ehanes7612 (Nov 19, 2011)

Orchidzrule said:


> I think this underlines a problem with any "new" plant, be it a species like kovachii, or the first bulldog paphs or harlequin phals. Judges are fallible and their enthusiasm colors their judgement when they first see them. You almost need someone who hates everything (is there no Simon Cowell amongst AOS judges?) to bring the others down to earth. I'm sort of tongue-in-cheek with the previous sentence, but you get the idea.



i think in the greater scheme of things...with the inevitable awards that will be placed on this species, that its not that big of a deal...it was exciting being a part of the judging team, even as an observer, and everyone there was excited to be judging this plant ...in my opinion it was a solid AM/AOS award


----------



## tim (Nov 20, 2011)

please god not armeniacum again...


----------



## John M (Nov 20, 2011)

Thanks for moving the thread, Dot. Yes, good point, Ed. Time will tell how this one measures up to future awards. I presume that it will grow larger. I hope it keeps it's shape while it does that. Phrag. kovachii could prove challenging for judges because of the continual changes in the flower shape and size that most clones are reported to express. Whatever the challenges and quirks this species brings to the table, I don't think the orchid world is going to lose interest in this amazing beauty. Hard to believe that such a thing went undiscovered for so very long.


----------



## Stone (Nov 20, 2011)

What do I have to do to get one:drool:


----------



## Shiva (Nov 20, 2011)

Stone said:


> What do I have to do to get one:drool:



Getting one is easy. Keeping it alive up to flowering size is the challenge. I've killed four so far and with any luck, #5 may flower some day, but don't hold your breath.


----------



## phrag guy (Nov 20, 2011)

very nice to see,and they are not hard to kill


----------



## quaker (Nov 20, 2011)

No matter what awards this plant has got it is one beautiful flower.

Ed


----------



## Rick (Nov 20, 2011)

tim said:


> please god not armeniacum again...



Well at least the 1st award was not an FCC.


----------



## Rick (Nov 20, 2011)

ehanes7612 said:


> one of the benefits of no previous quality awards...difficult to compare gainst just pictures on the internet and the northwest doesnt have the benefit oif having seen these in bloom as much as some areas



It definitely happens, but AOS is national and judges are supposed to be aware of national standards/trends and not be regionally unaware or influenced. I hang out periodically at the Atlanta center, and there is always a program of review of new awards and periodic reports of trends different orchid groups. The Atlanta center also maintains a library of taxonomic references. I've had plenty of good looking species flowers turned down (even though the judges had never seen the species in life) because when the taxonomic description was reviewed, the flower fell into the "normal range" of what the species was expected to do in the wild.

If it was an obscure species its easy to get isolated regional results, but kovachii has been making international orchid headlines for years, and its hard to believe that a regional body is behind the times.

Yes, with the lack of quality awards all you have is the CBR's and CHM's to compare too. I can't recall the specs on Glenn's original CHM plant so instructively we could compare this flower to the CHM if someone still has that info around.

There are a lot of different judging philosophies from one center to the next. Some have much less concern over lateral awarding and can produce a lot of different quality awards without concern of "locking out" newer plants based on past award history. Some are very strict with precedent.

So I'd rather not try to spend a lot of time 2nd guessing judges decisions and enjoy the flowers.


----------



## ehanes7612 (Nov 20, 2011)

Rick said:


> It definitely happens, but AOS is national and judges are supposed to be aware of national standards/trends and not be regionally unaware or influenced. I hang out periodically at the Atlanta center, and there is always a program of review of new awards and periodic reports of trends different orchid groups. The Atlanta center also maintains a library of taxonomic references. I've had plenty of good looking species flowers turned down (even though the judges had never seen the species in life) because when the taxonomic description was reviewed, the flower fell into the "normal range" of what the species was expected to do in the wild.
> 
> If it was an obscure species its easy to get isolated regional results, but kovachii has been making international orchid headlines for years, and its hard to believe that a regional body is behind the times.
> 
> ...


I can tell you from being on that roundtable and from the 'pictures' ive seen this plant had really good form, and the color, even on its own with no comparison, was breathtaking,...so , all the judges agreed it was a solid AM/AOS, perhaps it was scored too high? probably..this was an actual judging seminar, comprising of judges from BC to central oregon, several regions


----------



## jhoff (Nov 20, 2011)

*Comments from the owner of the plant *

First, no, the colors aren't accurate in that picture - I will take and post a better picture later - hopefully today. And I will post the award photo when I get it - likely in a week or so. The photographer is my friend 

Second, I didn't think the flower was all that great when I first saw it either but thought I should bring it to judging anyway. I *think* this is the first of that cross (Laura x Ana) to bloom - Fritz said he hadn't heard of any others. Anyway, the judges LOVED it - two of them scored it above 90 (91 and 94). It has a beautiful pouch / lip which you can't see from the picture above. I'll take some... I'll also post a scan of the award form.

Jerry


----------



## Clark (Nov 20, 2011)

Jerry-
Congrats!

I didn't kill mine, it was suicidal from flask.


----------



## John M (Nov 20, 2011)

Welcome Jerry! Thanks for the insight. I'll look forward to more photos. I NEVER get tired of photos of this species! It is hard to judge anything from just one photo. It seems that you agree; 87 points might be a bit high; but, IMO, it's definitely an AM. I'd just have liked to see the score in the low 80's, not the high 80's. That would leave room for lots of equal and improved quality flowers to be awarded AM's too, while reserving the FCC award for only the very, very best. As it stands now, with your plant as an example of what an 87 point AM should look like, almost anything else that comes along with significantly better form is automatically an FCC. I think that in the years to come, with line breeding, there will be plenty of better forms seen. Unless we want there to be hundreds of FCC's around, I think the judges needed to be a bit more reserved when pointing this first quality award.


----------



## Brian Monk (Nov 20, 2011)

Orchidzrule said:


> You almost need someone who hates everything (is there no Simon Cowell amongst AOS judges?) to bring the others down to earth.



Andy Easton can't be everywhere.


----------



## SlipperKing (Nov 20, 2011)

Brian Monk said:


> Andy Easton can't be everywhere.



Ha!:rollhappy: Great flower/plant Jerry and welcome!


----------



## SlipperFan (Nov 20, 2011)

Looking forward to your photos, Jerry. Welcome to Slippertalk!


----------



## jtrmd (Nov 20, 2011)

Orchidzrule said:


> is there no Simon Cowell amongst AOS judges?



U havent made it to the National Capital region.lol!


----------



## NYEric (Nov 20, 2011)

The color does not seem to be that off from the typical; if anything seems a little light. I find it hard to believe that got an 87 also. that doesn't leave a lot of rooom for improvements that will surely come. Thanks for posting and congrats to the owner anyway. Oh he's here now, welcome from NYC.


----------



## jhoff (Nov 20, 2011)

Ok, let's see if I can figure out how to link photos. Going to try first a scan of the award form...


----------



## NYEric (Nov 20, 2011)

There's an instructional sticky. Go thru a 2nd party like photobucket or flickr; more time consuming but it doesn't clog up bandwidth.


----------



## jhoff (Nov 20, 2011)

I'm just putting it up on my webserver but looks like I should resize it first - working on that! Ok, that's better - now to take a few pictures of the flower to post... And thanks for the welcome Eric!


----------



## jhoff (Nov 20, 2011)

Taking good pictures especially w/o a good light / background setup is hard. Here's a closeup of the pouch. Colors are fairly accurate - could be a bit browner / less pink.


----------



## jhoff (Nov 20, 2011)

Here's the whole flower, no flash


----------



## jhoff (Nov 20, 2011)

last picture - with flash this time. Natural spread is currently approx 14.3 cm.

I believe the CHM awarded plant had a natural spread of 18-19 cm. I'll have to look it up / see if I can find the award photo online anywhere.


----------



## John M (Nov 21, 2011)

Very cool! Thanks for the extra photos. That's a great thing to have the first quality awarded kovachii in the AOS judging system. Congratulations!


----------



## JeanLux (Nov 21, 2011)

Thanks for those pics, and Congrats!!!! :clap: Jean


----------



## jhoff (Nov 21, 2011)

Yes, pretty exciting  Plant is from the 1/2 flask I bought when they were first available from Piping Rock... so I have a bunch left  I'm pretty sure this one started to spike last year and the spike rotted before it got more than an inch high or so. And I have another that spiked this year but it rotted before it got out of the sheath for the first node...

And to respond to an earlier post - they're really not that hard to grow. I sold several from my 1/2 flask which paid for it  but of the rest, I think I've only lost 1 or 2. I grow them in straight diatomite with some added oyster shell. They're in a tray that's sitting in maybe an inch of water. They're in the back of my greenhouse on an upper shelf so they get a decent amount of light although I'm in Seattle and my greenhouse is down in a valley... And the back wall is all mounted plants w/ a mister so they get misted every other day or so... I think the most important thing is to keep them wet and in a medium that's going to be alkaline. Oh and the other thing is here in Seattle, our water is very pure - maybe 20 PPM total dissolved solids...


----------



## Roth (Nov 21, 2011)

tim said:


> please god not armeniacum again...



We are on the way for that with a couple of things. 

Favorite: kovachii, 

Possible outsider: hangianum ( sure whenever one will bloom, it will get an award, AM or FCC...).

Nightmare in Elm Street : micranthum var. eburneum ( they award horrible things, but whenever one blooms it gets an award. The one from Mr.Beetus is still excellent and UNDERratter, go figure... but Bubble Gum etc... are pieces of crap of the worst style. 

Maybe Cycnoches Jumbo Gold 

I have a few FCC armeniacum from before, for fun. So far the only FCC I own and is still worth its FCC is Los Osos (Norris Powell sold to me nice divisions straight out of his motherplant for 50US, still a very good deal). The remaining, I have them for history and fun...


----------



## jhoff (Nov 21, 2011)

spread is about 1/8 inch larger this AM (14.6 cm) and the flower is still nicely flat


----------



## Brian Monk (Nov 21, 2011)

Roth said:


> Maybe Cycnoches Jumbo Gold
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Orchidzrule (Nov 21, 2011)

ehanes7612 said:


> i think in the greater scheme of things...with the inevitable awards that will be placed on this species, that its not that big of a deal...it was exciting being a part of the judging team, even as an observer, and everyone there was excited to be judging this plant ...in my opinion it was a solid AM/AOS award



I thought I should clarify things here. In no way did I mean to suggest this plant was not worthy of an AOS award. Firstly, because I simply do not have any expertise or experience whatever--I have never seen one "in the flesh" in bloom. Secondly because it's clearly well-grown and the bloom presents itself well. So, definitely the grower has done a fine job and I admire this flower!

My concern was (and others here have stated it better than I did) the exuberance of the judges in response to a striking bloom resulted in a very high score and leaves little room to award future flowers.

And no, I haven't met Andy Easton nor made it to the National Capitol Region! :rollhappy::rollhappy:


----------



## tim (Nov 21, 2011)

Roth said:


> We are on the way for that with a couple of things.
> 
> Favorite: kovachii,
> 
> ...



yessss....

so many hangianum are butt-ugly tho...
i agree with brian that awarding the first kovachii )or the first anything) you've seen in person an fcc is a mistake and speaks volumes towards lack of staying current.


----------



## Rick (Nov 21, 2011)

jhoff said:


> spread is about 1/8 inch larger this AM (14.6 cm) and the flower is still nicely flat



Is the flower still growing?


----------



## likespaphs (Nov 21, 2011)

tim said:


> yessss....
> 
> so many hangianum are butt-ugly tho......




really?
i ain't never seen one in person but, well, perhaps i didn't see any photos of the bad ones.
any way you could direct me that way?
i figure either i'm so taken by them that i won't be able to see the forest for the trees, so to speak, or that we have a difference of opinion
oke:
:viking:
:crazy:


----------



## gonewild (Nov 21, 2011)

Congratulations on the flowering and the award. 
:clap:
However the judges got a little too excited, a cultural award would have been more appropriate. The flower quality will prove to be only "normal" as more plants bloom.


----------



## slippertalker (Nov 21, 2011)

I agree that the judges got a bit excited, in fact very excited but this was a small first bloom seedling so a cultural award was out of question. My guess is that this will seem quite typical as a seedling, but all of them are spectacular. With a small reference point, this is a likely result.


----------



## jhoff (Nov 22, 2011)

Rick said:


> Is the flower still growing?



Well it did over last night. Doesn't seem like it changed any from this AM to this evening. I'll let you all know again tomorrow AM...

I will say tho it's difficult to accurately measure.


----------



## raymond (Nov 22, 2011)

vry nice


----------



## jhoff (Nov 22, 2011)

Question for you guys - should I self this plant? I'm really tempted... or should I let it grow for another year or so before I try and put a pod on it? And do you know if they're like besseae where the pollen needs to be very fresh? And how about approx how long the gestation period is? I could also put the pollen on another phrag but all I have in bloom right now is some longifoliums (they're always in bloom...) and a besseae that's a bit past it's prime.


----------



## jhoff (Nov 28, 2011)

Here's the award photo:






Photograph ⓒ 2011 Mike Pearson

Thanks Mike for the photo!


----------



## SlipperFan (Nov 28, 2011)

Very lovely. 

It's interesting to see so many kovachii's being awarded before enough have bloomed and be seen to know what is common and what is awardable.


----------



## jhoff (Nov 30, 2011)

there's only one award...


----------



## Phrag-Plus (Nov 30, 2011)

Gorgeous!


----------



## Shiva (Nov 30, 2011)

Sigh!


----------



## Marc (Nov 30, 2011)

Lovely award photo.


----------



## jhoff (Nov 30, 2011)

Yes, Mike does a much better job at it than I do. I've been meaning for years to setup something where I have decent lighting and a black back drop. But I never think about it except right when I need to take a picture...


----------



## Candace (Dec 1, 2011)

Verrry nice.


----------

