# Phrag. besseae 'Smokin' x 'Haven'



## Paul (Dec 5, 2007)

This is a first bloom, is there any one who can confirm it's a 2N cross, please?


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## NYEric (Dec 5, 2007)

Yay besseae!


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## littlefrog (Dec 5, 2007)

Terry told me they were all diploid. "I have seen tetraploids, and these aren't tetraploids", to paraphrase the response.

Only way to be sure is to get the chromosomes counted.


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## Paul (Dec 5, 2007)

littlefrog said:


> Terry told me they were all diploid. "I have seen tetraploids, and these aren't tetraploids", to paraphrase the response.
> 
> Only way to be sure is to get the chromosomes counted.



Ok, thank's a lot litllefrog.
Do you know if it's the same with 'Big Bob' x 'Colossal' ?


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## swamprad (Dec 5, 2007)

My, my, my, I never get tired of gazing upon besseae...


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## littlefrog (Dec 5, 2007)

Yes, as far as I know. When I bought them (I got about 200 when they were first released) I asked about polyploidy. He said all of them should be diploid. Having seen them all bloom I'm in awe of the master, if he can get that kind of action without polyploidy. I'd love to see some of that breeding converted to 4N.


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## Paul (Dec 5, 2007)

littlefrog said:


> Yes, as far as I know. When I bought them (I got about 200 when they were first released) I asked about polyploidy. He said all of them should be diploid. Having seen them all bloom I'm in awe of the master, if he can get that kind of action without polyploidy. I'd love to see some of that breeding converted to 4N.



Yes, that should be very interesting, the improvment could be impressive!
I would like to try breeding two nice 2N besseae and then try to convert some to 4N.


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## slippertalker (Dec 5, 2007)

These flowers seem to really improve on the 2nd and 3rd bloomings in my experience. Keep that in mind if you have several plants that you are grading out....


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## SlipperFan (Dec 5, 2007)

This one certainly is intense in color.


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## NYEric (Dec 6, 2007)

Did someone say they were weeding out besseae!?! :drool:


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## Paul (Dec 7, 2007)

new photo under natural light (full sun):


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## NYEric (Dec 7, 2007)

It opened nicely. I have trouble w/ straight besseae so it's good to see a nice [not orange] one.


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## Paul (Dec 7, 2007)

NYEric said:


> It opened nicely. I have trouble w/ straight besseae so it's good to see a nice [not orange] one.



This one could be salmon colored, if I grow it under very bright light (I asked Sam Tsui about this cross)


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## Magicboy (Dec 7, 2007)

Paul said:


> Yes, that should be very interesting, the improvment could be impressive!
> I would like to try breeding two nice 2N besseae and then try to convert some to 4N.



How do you convert a 2N to a 4N?


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## Paul (Dec 7, 2007)

Magicboy said:


> How do you convert a 2N to a 4N?



You need to do a colchicine treatment (strong agar medium with 0.05% colchicine) when the seedling are protocorms, you replate them into this medium for a few days (3-5) then replate into "normal" medium. Then you wait and see what plants survive. These plants may be 4N, but they could be also 2N or rarely 3N.
I have never tried it yet, of course...
Maybe I will try with other species first (Cattleya), but colchicine is very dangerous (and quite dangerous even at this very low concentration)


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## NYEric (Dec 7, 2007)

Everyone and their mom has one of these. Most are orangey; I have a couple that are supposed to be "salmon"! But I'm still looking for reds!


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## paphlady (Dec 7, 2007)

Paul said:


> This one could be salmon colored, if I grow it under very bright light (I asked Sam Tsui about this cross)



Don't think so. From what I've seen, Smokin x Haven have produced fire engine red, salmon colored, and various shades of orange and red -- all with the SAME growing conditions.


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## paphioland (Dec 7, 2007)

Paul said:


> This one could be salmon colored, if I grow it under very bright light (I asked Sam Tsui about this cross)



Like paph lady said this is not true. It is genetic and only happens in certain crosses, smokin x haven being one of them. It is pretty rare color variation as well. It is not a spectrum as in the cross goes from red gets lighter depending on how much light you give it and then goes to peach. In the same environment the bloom is very distinctly peach and the other normal colored ones are very red. The successive blooms follow in this pattern. I have 5 peaches I think and they cont to be peach every bloom no matter where they are blooming and opening. Conditions might affect the color a little but does not make a red into a peach.


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## NYEric (Dec 7, 2007)

That is one of the reddest of this cross I've seen.


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## toddybear (Dec 7, 2007)

Intense colour!


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## Billie (Dec 8, 2007)

*Don't you like the way the petals glow in full sun .wow*

-somehow the photos don't always pick it up -nice coloured plant 
Billie


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## tan (Dec 8, 2007)

always love the color...


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## Magicboy (Dec 8, 2007)

Paul said:


> You need to do a colchicine treatment (strong agar medium with 0.05% colchicine) when the seedling are protocorms, you replate them into this medium for a few days (3-5) then replate into "normal" medium. Then you wait and see what plants survive. These plants may be 4N, but they could be also 2N or rarely 3N.
> I have never tried it yet, of course...
> Maybe I will try with other species first (Cattleya), but colchicine is very dangerous (and quite dangerous even at this very low concentration)



How do you see on a seedling that it worked or do I have to wait for it to get in bloom? I have never seen a tetraploid orchid so the only thing I know is that a tetraploid plant has bigger flowers, right? How can I separate i 3N from a 4N?


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## NYEric (Dec 10, 2007)

Tetraploids usually have bigger and more rounded blooms, like a person on steroids! Unfortunately, they grow slower. The vendor of 4N plants should list if the plant is colchicine treated. There are pictures here of Phrag. hybrids w/ 4N parents i.e. 3N plants and also search Phrag. besseae 'Rob's Choice'.


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