# Ebay just look



## Dido (Mar 5, 2012)

Hy I dodnt know in which field of post it fits. 
But it could be interesting. 

Just seen that a member is offering something special here. 

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Cypripedium-...268?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item256dbc520c

This one is special for hakone oke:


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## Hakone (Mar 5, 2012)

Dido said:


> Hy I dodnt know in which field of post it fits.
> But it could be interesting.
> 
> Just seen that a member is offering something special here.
> ...



thank you very much


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## NYEric (Mar 6, 2012)

:rollhappy:
what a tip!


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## tim (Mar 6, 2012)

how does canbejing get plants into the states with no paperwork? Is this pure smuggling? How the hell does a place that just smuggles plants have such a high rating? Some of their plants are great, but I don't want to be illegal to get them...


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## Dido (Mar 6, 2012)

Asking him he is a memeber here :evil:

Some of his plants are breaded, I think this one to and the segawai fore sure. 

Subtropicum for sure not, but he is able to grow them


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## Hakone (Mar 6, 2012)

tim said:


> how does canbejing get plants into the states with no paperwork? Is this pure smuggling? How the hell does a place that just smuggles plants have such a high rating? Some of their plants are great, but I don't want to be illegal to get them...



Cyp. japonicum album growing only in Japan , of course, he has paper for japonicum album.


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## tim (Mar 6, 2012)

and so that would be sent to me with phytosanitary paperwork?

What about the hangianum the same seller is offering? 

I was under the impression that even if the seller has export cites paperwork or phyto that I have to have import documents as well. There is no mention of any of that in the shipping section of the canbeijing's ebay store.


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## Hakone (Mar 6, 2012)

tim said:


> and so that would be sent to me with phytosanitary paperwork?
> 
> What about the hangianum the same seller is offering?
> 
> I was under the impression that even if the seller has export cites paperwork or phyto that I have to have import documents as well. There is no mention of any of that in the shipping section of the canbeijing's ebay store.



- Cyp. japonicum album will be send with phytosanitary and Cites Paper. He can send you the paper before. 

- We are here to cypripedium thread that has to do to with Hangianum?. Hangianum is Paph.


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## Dido (Mar 6, 2012)

I think for the most of his Cyps he can not provide cites. 
What I heard the Japonicum is from Japan and the segawai too. 

For subtropicum there is no plant in the world which is legal. 

Nothing offical imported to europe as I heard from customs, even if there are plants in europe, have heard from palnts and it was discussed before. 

If I read correct, the foto on this listing is not Japonicum it is a photo of an alba. 
I think our friend from Japan has posted a pic from the alba before. 

Would love to get it, but I will not spend so much money. 

Before that I would buy the segawai from him


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## Hakone (Mar 7, 2012)

the flower picture is C.fomosanum album, saw flower stem .


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## s1214215 (Mar 7, 2012)

Subtropicum may be soon be legal.. A friend germinated from seed I sent with a phyto and has deflasked it in the USA. I have flasked the seed on the same recipe, so fingers crossed. Fingers crossed it grows well out of flask.

As to why Canbeijing such a good rating??? Well a lot of countries may say they follow CITES, but in reality dont give a stuff about it and ignore it as much as they can.. This goes for Asia and the EU.

Also I have been told by a China expert it is not illegal to collect plants within China for internal sales (except in national parks). Its only illegal once you send plants outside the country. The internal market for plants is huge.

Its not impossible to get plants in China with a phytosanitary permit, CITES is another matter.

Brett


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## Dido (Mar 8, 2012)

But how they can be legal in the US if no plant with origin in Vietnam, see the discussion in other topics are legal. 
And did you Import the seed with full Cites work and wirth knowing the officals. 
I know its legal to send seed from orhcids, because in the Cites is nothing about seed only parts of the plant but in the listing they do not mention seed. But can you get a legal plant in US out of such seeds. 

I just received seed too from another species and not out of China but thinking on if this is legal or not. 
I know to get the seed is fully legal here, because it was controlled offical with Phyto. But I had no cites for this seed.


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## NYEric (Mar 8, 2012)

That is double-speak. Guess what; seeds are parts of the plant. In fact, they are the whole plant. If you have them dont worry about the legality.


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## Hakone (Mar 8, 2012)

Seed had no CITES paper , to follow seedling is illegal


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## Berthold (Mar 8, 2012)

NYEric said:


> seeds are parts of the plant.



No, seeds are not part of plants. Seeds are independent of plants. Only seeds in capsula at the plant are parts of the plant.


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## Hakone (Mar 8, 2012)

Cypripedium ( example : subtropicum ) , ist seeds or seeds in capsula .


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## NYEric (Mar 8, 2012)

NYEric said:


> In fact, they are the whole plant.


Please see above noted quote. What part of the plant is not contained in the seed except some symbiotic fungi required to manufacture food for the plant?


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## Dido (Mar 8, 2012)

Berthold said:


> No, seeds are not part of plants. Seeds are independent of plants. Only seeds in capsula at the plant are parts of the plant.



I agree with berthold I have the same knowledge and so the botanical gardens act too. 
Bring dryed plants in its Ok without cites they only have to pass Phyto and the same for the seed. 
If you look close its not mentioned the seed in the cites law. They only speak about the parts of the plant who are alive. But by definition there is no live at a seed so I learned it in my study time. 
Only if growth starts then the live begins.


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## Berthold (Mar 8, 2012)

Dido said:


> Only if growth starts then the live begins.



Live begins when pets are dead and children leave parents home


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## Dido (Mar 8, 2012)

Berthold said:


> Live begins when pets are dead and children leave parents home



This will be hard for me, you and Claus are already at this stage. 
My first one is 4 and the next one on the way. 
I have a dog and a cat some brids some haorses, goats, and some smaller ones who I dont want to talk about oke:


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## biothanasis (Mar 8, 2012)

LOL.....!!!!

Just a question! Aren't seeds products of plants? Why plants in different age stage are legal or illegal (seed=young plant embryo, seedling=young plant, plant=plant....plant...)? What does a plant mean? What are their products? Don't plants "produce" seeds? What kind of botanists made these laws/terms and why on earth should uncomprehensible laws be implemented??? And what do we protect the plants from? 

Did anyone grow any plants from 0? Weren't all seeds obtained from the wild in the first place? Don't we live in the wild (perhaps a modified wild, anyway....). If so, isn't lineage & everything illegal then, according to Cites etc etc??? Then why do they continue propagating them?

Additionally, how can a phyto cert provide me with safety that no microorganisms / pests are evident? Who decides that?

And to come to the crucial point.... Isn't exchange of pathogens in between different parts of the world a biodiversity procedure? Why then should it be stopped if we are all eager to protect biodiversity? Who decides what?

(Well it is all in one question...hehehehehe...you can get my point...! )

Perhaps it is all to get money money money money money $$$$$$$$$ & protect our humane ego? Only one knows, I guess...!

Does anyone dissagree/agree?

(Sorry for the long thought, but it is this time of the year when thoughts about righteousness arise...lol...)


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## s1214215 (Mar 8, 2012)

Not all countries have the same silly rules. Australia for one requires no CITES permit or phyto permit for seed. I can legally import seed from anywhere that permits its export. As far as I know China has no laws prohibiting sending out seed and I have check on the matter.

The Cyp subtropicum seed was imported into Thailand legally under Thai law, then re-exported legally to the USA with a Thai phytosanitary permit naming the seed as Cyp subtropicum. USDA inspected it and passed it, and sent it to the person recieving it. My understanding is that makes it legal.

As for sending paph seed, I have no idea why USDA inspected the Paph vietnamense seed I sent to a friend, passed it and sent it on to him. It was sent with a Thai phyto and named as Paph. vietnamense. However, they did so. Back then I was not aware of the Lacey Act etc, or I may not have bothered.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Mar 8, 2012)

As far as I know, much of this discussion is moot. Cypripedium is not given the same tight restrictions by CITES that paphs and phrags get. That's why there are so many Chinese cyps sold openly. Cyps are not Appendix 1.


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## Hakone (Mar 9, 2012)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> As far as I know, much of this discussion is moot. Cypripedium is not given the same tight restrictions by CITES that paphs and phrags get. That's why there are so many Chinese cyps sold openly. Cyps are not Appendix 1.



that is to say Cyp does not need a CITES paper , and why say Dido this is not legally .


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## Dido (Mar 11, 2012)

All orchids are under Cites.
If you look into the cites paper, you dont need paper in the EU but you need to prove where they come from. 
But for sure Cyps need Cites paper if you want to import them into the US or Into Europe. 
Only Hakone dont need them


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## Hakone (Mar 11, 2012)

Hi Dido,

Why would you import cyps Into Europe. Cyps have been growing for 100 years in Europe.

*All orchids are under Cites*. Are you sure ?


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## Dido (Mar 11, 2012)

Hybrids not 
I would import Cyps like Rebunense, and I think you need Cites for that. 

To Import Cyps from Canada years ago I needed Cites. 

Ask the customs, they told me that.

I have Cites papers. 

A friend imported japonicum and other kinds last year from Japan he had to do the paper work. 

Perner had problems to bring his Cyps into germany last year, because he did not do a perfect paperwork 
and german did not agree with the chinese Cites paper, they had to stay for weeks on the broder in the fridge, ask him he can tell you. 
Most Cyps are very rare so why they should not need Cites.


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## Hakone (Mar 11, 2012)

Dido said:


> Hybrids not
> I would import Cyps like Rebunense, and I think you need Cites for that.
> 
> To Import Cyps from Canada years ago I needed Cites.
> ...



What is *Rebunense*? Is Rebunense a *macranthos*? Since when does a *macranthos* Cites?. *Macranthos* is imported for long time to Europe .

You can buy almost all CYPs here in europe, why import more?


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## Dido (Mar 11, 2012)

If customs comes to you, you have to prove where your plants from, and for me its better to have cites for them. 
And I know from my plants where they come from. 
And I dont tell breaders, sorry your seedlings are to expensive I buy Cheaper wild collected plants and they bloom fast. 

I buy plants from grower who have told me they are breaded, or been in cultivation for long years and clones from them. 

The last years some cyps was imported from US, like passerinum or do you think P did grow them himself. Then arientum is still not realy to buy, and there was imports the last years from canada. 
For me it is the Rebunense, that you dont belive in this kinds we dicussed in another thread and again if you think different I am happy with that, but you need a license to get them into europe. I and a friend we imported some Cymbidiums from Japan and needed cites. 
I know you dont belive in that and you love to import wild collected plants, but I try to stay on the side of the law, and only try to buy from sellers who have raised them and proved that there plants are not from the wild. I have get plants too and tryed to keep them alive and sometimes I was succesfull. 

It doesent matter fro me if they are rare or not. But I dont like collecting them from the wild. 

And here in europe on eBay and on others siedes there are a lot of illegal plants for sale. I dont want to get them, so I try to buy from people I trust. 
But not always this will help. So more and more true kinds I try to raise from seed.


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## Hakone (Mar 11, 2012)

Dido said:


> If customs comes to you, you have to prove where your plants from, and for me its better to have cites for them.
> And I know from my plants where they come from.
> And I dont tell breaders, sorry your seedlings are to expensive I buy Cheaper wild collected plants and they bloom fast.
> 
> ...



All your arguments are purely assumption:

- passerinum and arientum can you by in Europe without Cites


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## Dido (Mar 11, 2012)

You dont need Cites by dealing inside in Europe. 

Why you dont understand the different. 

But they were imported to Europe with Cites.


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## Hakone (Mar 11, 2012)

Dido said:


> You dont need Cites by dealing inside in Europe.
> 
> Why you dont understand the different.
> 
> *But they were imported to Europe with Cites.*



I repeat again, that we not need any import, they are growing already *HERE*


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## Hakone (Mar 11, 2012)

I open your eyes. look:

Albiflora.be - Cypripedium


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## Berthold (Mar 11, 2012)

Hakone said:


> I repeat again, that we not need any import, they are growing already *HERE*



I guess You are speaking about passerinum and arietinum seedlings from Crustacare, do You?


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## Hakone (Mar 11, 2012)

you are intelligent, for long time has Crustacare bardolphianum, fargesii , margaritaceum, debiles, lichiangense, plectrochilon, .. etc. ..in program.

*Question:* has crustacare Cites . Dido, do you understand . All these plants had come to Europe before CITES Convention.

Berthold and Dido, do you have an argument .

" wenn du weiß, sagst . Wenn du nicht weiß , hälst die Klappe bitte "

" if you know , you can say. If you do not know , keep your mouth please "


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## Berthold (Mar 11, 2012)

Berthold said:


> I guess You are speaking about passerinum and arietinum seedlings from Crustacare, do You?



Hakone what is Your answer? Are You mixing up some things again?


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## Hakone (Mar 11, 2012)

Berthold said:


> Hakone what is Your answer? Are You mixing up some things again?



I'm afraid , that Dido not understand. I answered your question in general for him, naturally passerinum and arietinum are incl.


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## Kavanaru (Mar 11, 2012)

just my two cents for the discussion... calceolus grows naturaly in Europe (and of course even centuries before CITES convention!)... but if I want to bring a plant from Switzerland (also grows naturally there, but this country is not part of the EU!) I need CITES and Phyto certificate... simple as that...


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## Berthold (Mar 11, 2012)

Hakone said:


> I answered your question in general for him, naturally passerinum and arietinum are incl.



No, I don't think so. I don't know anything about availability of adult Cypripedium passerinum and arietinum in Germany.

Both species are very difficult in cultivation in Germany for special reasons. Passerinum is a little bit easier than arietinum.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Mar 11, 2012)

To make it clear to all outside Europe...All orchids are under CITES, but cyps are not under CITES 1, the most restrictive category. CITES 1 includes all paphs and phrags, and some others, like Vanda coerulea.


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## Hakone (Mar 12, 2012)

*I don't know anything about availability of adult Cypripedium passerinum and arietinum in Germany. :
*
-	does not mean that they do not exist in Germany

*Both species are very difficult in cultivation in Germany for special reasons. Passerinum is a little bit easier than arietinum.:*

- assumption

*in memory:*

you have a cordigerum, still lives. If not why.

If all the plants die after purchase, what is the error . You or the plants .


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## Hakone (Mar 12, 2012)

Kavanaru said:


> just my two cents for the discussion... calceolus grows naturaly in Europe (and of course even centuries before CITES convention!)... but if I want to bring a plant from Switzerland (also grows naturally there, but this country is not part of the EU!) I need CITES and Phyto certificate... simple as that...




Cyp. calceolus grow like weeds in Europe. Why do you want another more take to Europe. I do not understand your logic , why you are looking for something more complicated. Are calceolus from Switzerland different from calceolus from Europe.


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## Kavanaru (Mar 12, 2012)

Hakone said:


> Cyp. calceolus grow like weeds in Europe. Why do you want another more take to Europe. I do not understand your logic , why you are looking for something more complicated. Are calceolus from Switzerland different from calceolus from Europe.



It is a hypothetical example, just to illustrate that you NEED cites and phyto to bring cyps into teh EU. If you cannot understand that, your problem!

on the other hand, to make the hypothetical example understandable for you... I recently moved from Switzerland to France, if I would have had a nice clon of calceolus or any otehr Cyp available in the EU and CH, I would have wanted to bring it with me. In this case, I am not making things complicated, but still need CITES and Phyto, otherwise, I would have been breaking the laws in Switzerland and the EU, bringing plants illegally with me (illegal, because I had no CITES, not because they are illegal plants in the EU)


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## Hakone (Mar 12, 2012)

Kavanaru said:


> It is a hypothetical example, just to illustrate that you NEED cites and phyto to bring cyps into teh EU. If you cannot understand that, your problem!
> 
> on the other hand, to make the hypothetical example understandable for you... I recently moved from Switzerland to France, if I would have had a nice clon of calceolus or any otehr Cyp available in the EU and CH, I would have wanted to bring it with me. In this case, I am not making things complicated, but still need CITES and Phyto, otherwise, I would have been breaking the laws in Switzerland and the EU, bringing plants illegally with me (illegal, because I had no CITES, not because they are illegal plants in the EU)



- you live only with hypothetical ?. never with practically ?

- when you moved from Switzerland to France : compost your CYPs in Switzerland , buy new in Europe. Who is your problem.

- we are talking past each other:

a/- Cyps need Cites to import to Europe. 

*but*

b/- All cyps you can by legal in Europe . Why do you want they to import to Europe. Does it cost money and time.


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## Berthold (Mar 12, 2012)

Hakone said:


> - you live only with hypothetical ?. never with practically ?
> 
> Who is your problem?



Hakone is the problem :evil:


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## Kavanaru (Mar 12, 2012)

Hakone said:


> - you live only with hypothetical ?. never with practically ?



what?  ???
guy go and take your pills!


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## Hakone (Mar 12, 2012)

Kavanaru said:


> what?  ???
> guy go and take your pills!





Kavanaru said:


> *It is a hypothetical example*, just to illustrate that you NEED cites and phyto to bring cyps into teh EU. If you cannot understand that, your problem!
> 
> on the other hand, *to make the hypothetical example understandable for you... *I recently moved from Switzerland to France, if I would have had a nice clon of calceolus or any otehr Cyp available in the EU and CH, I would have wanted to bring it with me. In this case, I am not making things complicated, but still need CITES and Phyto, otherwise, I would have been breaking the laws in Switzerland and the EU, bringing plants illegally with me (illegal, because I had no CITES, not because they are illegal plants in the EU)



take pills , you or me ? 

*to make the practical example understandable for you... :* compost your cyps in Switzerland , buy new in Europe.


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## cnycharles (Mar 13, 2012)

Hakone said:


> b/- All cyps you can by legal in Europe . Why do you want they to import to Europe. Does it cost money and time.



you didn't read the one person's post, that there are many plants illegally brought to europe, native-dug plants. yes, as you say they are so-called 'legally available' because of deceitful importers/exporters, though many know that they came to europe illegally. the person replied that they want to import legal, flask-derived plants so that they know for sure that their plants were not dug up from the ground. many plants were brought in before cites came into effect, but that doesn't mean that all plants are legal, just because they have the same species name. if a plant was illegally brought into a country, then it is an illegal plant. it is deceitfully sold as a 'legal' plant; so a person is not legally buying a plant that was dug up somewhere else, they are being deceived, being told that it's legal, when it really isn't. there is a clear difference, and the people that want to import species with cites paperwork so that they are clearly legal, and not deceitfully sold illegal plants, want to make sure they are completely legal, and importing with paperwork is how they ensure this. not everyone does business with a wink and a nod, they have more character and integrity than that

kavanaru's point that you also didn't read, was that if he had a clone that was very desirable, he would want to bring that with him. cites papers would be necessary. if he could get that same or very similar clone elsewhere in europe, then it would make sense for him to sell his plant to someone else, or make seedlings of his plant in flask, and then have someone send him that flask after he has moved.


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## Hakone (Mar 14, 2012)

cnycharles said:


> you didn't read the one person's post, that there are many plants illegally brought to europe, native-dug plants. yes, as you say they are so-called 'legally available' because of deceitful importers/exporters, though many know that they came to europe illegally. the person replied that they want to import legal, flask-derived plants so that they know for sure that their plants were not dug up from the ground. many plants were brought in before cites came into effect, but that doesn't mean that all plants are legal, just because they have the same species name. if a plant was illegally brought into a country, then it is an illegal plant. it is deceitfully sold as a 'legal' plant; so a person is not legally buying a plant that was dug up somewhere else, they are being deceived, being told that it's legal, when it really isn't. there is a clear difference, and the people that want to import species with cites paperwork so that they are clearly legal, and not deceitfully sold illegal plants, want to make sure they are completely legal, and importing with paperwork is how they ensure this. not everyone does business with a wink and a nod, they have more character and integrity than that
> 
> kavanaru's point that you also didn't read, was that if he had a clone that was very desirable, he would want to bring that with him. cites papers would be necessary. if he could get that same or very similar clone elsewhere in europe, then it would make sense for him to sell his plant to someone else, or make seedlings of his plant in flask, and then have someone send him that flask after he has moved.





* "you didn't read the one person's post, that there are many plants illegally brought to europe, native-dug plants. yes, as you say they are so-called 'legally available' because of deceitful importers/exporters, though many know that they came to europe illegally. ......"*

1/- before cites came into effect were many cypss have been imported to EU and multiply. After cites came into effect , these plants were legal. You can buy and sell the plants inside EU.

2/- after cites came into effect was a lot of cyps imported into EU, with Cites paperwork . The plants were multiply and sold.

3/- the one person's post assumes that all plants were illegal in EU. Is that correct ?

4/- example : phytesia, crustacare , Frosch , Prins ...ect...

sell the plants with paper . Why do not buy from them, but again import . That is my question.

*
" kavanaru's point that you also didn't read, was that if he had a clone that was very desirable, he would want to bring that with him. cites papers would be necessary. if he could get that same or ......"*

1/- kavanaru wrote : “ *If he had a clone* …..” , If is conjunctive , is hypothetical ..

2/- *If *indeed a beautiful clones was, would the seller (kavanaru bought this beautiful clone of him) has already made flask , kavanaru can buy from him the seedling when he moved from Switzerland to France. Is not that simple ? or we should philosophize ?


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## Kavanaru (Mar 14, 2012)

Cnycharles, do not waste your time... it is obvious Hakone read but do not understand english... He only understand hakonian... 




Hakone said:


> 1/- kavanaru wrote : “ *If he had a clone* …..” , If is conjunctive , is hypothetical ..
> 
> 2/- *If *indeed a beautiful clones was, would the seller (kavanaru bought this beautiful clone of him) has already made flask , kavanaru can buy from him the seedling when he moved from Switzerland to France. Is not that simple ? or we should philosophize ?



Hakone, FYI:

"Conjunctive", in the way it exists in spanish or the way it exists in german (which is different!) does not exist in english. I was using the. "conditional", which on its way is NOT the same as hypothetical... 

for the rest, no need to explain you the difference of what I said and what you wanted to understand... you would not understand it anyway...


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## Hakone (Mar 14, 2012)

Kavanaru said:


> Cnycharles, do not waste your time... it is obvious Hakone read but do not understand english... He only understand hakonian...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Kavanaru ,

" *It is a hypothetical example*, just to illustrate that you NEED cites and phyto to bring cyps into teh EU. If you cannot understand that, your problem!"

what do you mean by *" It is a hypothetical example "* ???? which means * hypothetical * in English ? unrealistic or realistic ?


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