# Orchids Mag



## jtrmd (Apr 20, 2012)

Did anyone else see those bad FCC's? HAHAHAHAHA!

Especially the Memoria Rex Van-Delden.


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## Gcroz (Apr 20, 2012)

I'd like to know about the Paph. Chiu Hua Dancer: who is Springwater orchids and Thanh Nguyen? AOS judging only allows for awarding of this hybrid if the plants originated from Glen Decker, and will not award controversial species abroad. I had this plant, with paperwork from Glen, awarded and the award subsequently nullified.

Anyone know how to file a grievance? My plant is better anyway...


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## jtrmd (Apr 20, 2012)

Gcroz said:


> I'd like to know about the Paph. Chiu Hua Dancer: who is Springwater orchids and Thanh Nguyen? AOS judging only allows for awarding of this hybrid if the plants originated from Glen Decker, and will not award controversial species abroad. I had this plant, with paperwork from Glen, awarded and the award subsequently nullified.
> 
> Anyone know how to file a grievance? My plant is better anyway...



The same thing happened to a friend who got an AM.


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## Gcroz (Apr 20, 2012)

jtrmd said:


> Did anyone else see those bad FCC's? HAHAHAHAHA!
> 
> Especially the Memoria Rex Van-Delden.




We thought the same about the Rex Van-Delden! That plant would have been screened by the "hanging" judges we have in Boylston!


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## Justin (Apr 20, 2012)

Gcroz said:


> I'd like to know about the Paph. Chiu Hua Dancer: who is Springwater orchids and Thanh Nguyen? AOS judging only allows for awarding of this hybrid if the plants originated from Glen Decker, and will not award controversial species abroad. I had this plant, with paperwork from Glen, awarded and the award subsequently nullified.
> 
> Anyone know how to file a grievance? My plant is better anyway...



Thanh is a well-known orchid/paph seller in Florida, and a very nice person to deal with. Not sure about the award in question but I can say nice things about Thanh and his plants.


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## Gcroz (Apr 20, 2012)

Justin said:


> Thanh is a well-known orchid/paph seller in Florida, and a very nice person to deal with. Not sure about the award in question but I can say nice things about Thanh and his plants.



all I'm concerned about is the provenance of that plant. I couldn't find any info on the exhibiters, but I admit I'm not the best at internet researching. I just want to know whether he had the paperwork!


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## Scott Ware (Apr 20, 2012)

I can't offer any insight on the _Paph._ Memoria Rex Van-Delden (it may need a more creative explanation than I could come up with), but the photo of the _Phalaenopsis_ John Naugle has been stretched so far out of aspect ratio it is absolutely unrecognizable. A real shame - I saw this flower in person and it is the most spectacular huge, *ROUND* white phalaenopsis of the heaviest substance one could imagine - nothing like the freakish stretched out pathetic mess depicted in the magazine photo.


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## jtrmd (Apr 20, 2012)

Scott Ware said:


> I can't offer any insight on the _Paph._ Memoria Rex Van-Delden (it may need a more creative explanation than I could come up with), but the photo of the _Phalaenopsis_ John Naugle has been stretched so far out of aspect ratio it is absolutely unrecognizable. A real shame - I saw this flower in person and it is the most spectacular huge, *ROUND* white phalaenopsis of the heaviest substance one could imagine - nothing like the freakish stretched out pathetic mess depicted in the magazine photo.



I missed that one at first.Who let that photo slip through the cracks during editing?


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## mormodes (Apr 20, 2012)

This (usa-illegal plants getting AOS awards in international shows) is on the agenda at Wichita. Act fast, Wichita is coming up at the end of this month. And no. I don't know how to spell Whichita. Wichita. Wixita.*G*


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## Gcroz (Apr 20, 2012)

mormodes said:


> This (usa-illegal plants getting AOS awards in international shows) is on the agenda at Wichita. Act fast, Wichita is coming up at the end of this month. And no. I don't know how to spell Whichita. Wichita. Wixita.*G*



Sadly, I have no doubt that foreign interest will win. "American" Orchid Society may be a misnomer...


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## cnycharles (Apr 21, 2012)

if they are judging plants in another country, then they should judge plants that are legal to have in that country. very easy to determine, anything else is ........


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## Gcroz (Apr 21, 2012)

cnycharles said:


> if they are judging plants in another country, then they should judge plants that are legal to have in that country. very easy to determine, anything else is ........




However, that puts US growers at a distinct disadvantage! Lets take _hangianum_ for example. If that species gets a lot of awards in other countries while it is still illegal here, then it will be awarded out. Once it becomes legal here, it will become very difficult, if not impossible, for US growers to get parallel awards. Also, it is rewarding the pecuniary interest for foreign growers, while punishing US growers for their "accident" of nationality.

Personally, I don't think AOS should be in the habit of playing CITES politics or in the habit of doing USFWS job for them. Stick to judging all orchids and let others enforce the laws and treaties. AOS isn't an enforcement agency...


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## Roth (Apr 21, 2012)

Gcroz said:


> We thought the same about the Rex Van-Delden! That plant would have been screened by the "hanging" judges we have in Boylston!



I have never seen a good Paph Memoria Rex Van Delden... It is always a poor version of Dollgoldi indeed...

As for the gigantifolium, the history is really weird about those 'legal' and those 'illegal' plants. The original paperwork came from Indonesia as flasks. I did have some of those flasks ( genuine, nevertheless), and some went to Au Yong. He grew the plants better than me in 2001, as within a year, he was able to export gigantifolium with CITES, multigrowth plants. I bought some ( though I have been cheated and some plants were swapped for runts, as usual with Au Yong, but anyway).

The legal plants from Glen Decker came from Au Yong, not directly ( some indeed came through me, through Germany...). Same for the Taiwanese ones. The illegal plants from Sam Tsui came through Au Yong, through Hawaii. In fact, the importer in Hawaii made a CITES for sanderianum, rothschildianum, stonei and gigantifolium. When he got caught with some of the sanderianum ( indeed freshly collected), he made a plea bargain, and accepted to cancel the import. As a result it canceled as well the CITES, including those gigantifolium plants. Suddenly, the plants from Sam Tsui became illegal.

But the funny part is that, anyway, they all had the same exporter, but some lucky ones still have valid CITES, the unlucky had their CITES canceled...

There are more imports in the USA of gigantifolium that are still legal than the only plants from Glen Decker.
We have, according to the CITES Trade Database:
2001 Malaysia to the USA, canceled permit
2006 Germany to the USA from France, 40 plants ( Glenn Decker stock)
2007 Taiwan to the USA ( accepted, import permit emitted and import completed) 5 plants. Don't know where... and the US emitted a reexport permit of 3 plants to Canada. All legal then...
2008 Taiwan to the USA one gigantifolium again...
2009 People's Republic of China to Canada, 2 plants ( which confirms that Holger Perner is not the only one to export legally from China...)
2009 Canada to the USA, 5 plants
2009 Taiwan to the USA, 5 plants.

It appears very clearly that, if the AOS Awards commitee accepts only Glenn Decker plants as legal, they are plain wrong, and sponsoring directly one trader against the others... There are more nurseries and more people who have legit gigantifolium.

In the CITES Trade Database, I copied only the plants whose import has been accepted by the USFWS as legit, completed, and not canceled...


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## Gcroz (Apr 21, 2012)

Thanks Roth. As always you information is interesting and thorough!

As for sponsoring Glen, over others. It was explained to me that AOS judges were recognizing his Chiu Hua Dancers as legit because Roddy Gabel at USFWS had recognized them as the only legal import of that hybrid. As for _gigantifolium_ I don't know that status. Also, the information regarding that hybrid came to me as of November. As of January's CAIOS show, there was one illegal Chiu Hua Dancer exhibited there, but not judged.

Perhaps the status of Chiu Hua Dancer has changed? Anyone know?


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## Roth (Apr 21, 2012)

Gcroz said:


> It was explained to me that AOS judges were recognizing his Chiu Hua Dancers as legit because Roddy Gabel at USFWS had recognized them as the only legal import of that hybrid.
> 
> Perhaps the status of Chiu Hua Dancer has changed? Anyone know?



Well, I do not believe that so much... As long as they recognize gigantifolium from many countries to be legal, and allow the import to the USA, they have to accept its hybrids from those same countries, as well as US made hybrids.

So far for paphiopedilum hybrids, they can be traded as paphiopedilum hybrids, no need to mention the parentage according to the CITES regulations. Now maybe Glenn Decker is the only one to have a CITES writtent 'Chiu Hua Dancer' on it, but it has technically no more value than 'hybrids', and surely less than a legit gigantifolium CITES as several others traders in the USA have...


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## NYEric (Apr 21, 2012)

Correct. You can import hybrids no problem.


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## Gcroz (Apr 21, 2012)

NYEric said:


> Correct. You can import hybrids no problem.



Excuse me if I'm wrong, but if the hybrid is created by using a plant from the "no-no" list, then don't the CITES and LACEY Act rules apply to that hybrid as if it was gigantifolium, ie requiring proper documentation for the source material? Otherwise, why haven't we had legal hangianum hybrids in the US for the past several years?

Roth: Like I said, I was only re-stating what I had been told, which was backed up by other growers. I didn't ask USFWS.

I realize I'm simplifying this response. I simply don't have time to write more detail at the moment, but I think everyone reading should be able to get the gist of what I'm trying to say.


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## NYEric (Apr 21, 2012)

When you get plants inspected to export from outside and import, if the vendor documents and your paperwork says, "paphiopedilum hybrids", that usually gets CITES inspection approval. At least in my experience.


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## Roth (Apr 21, 2012)

That's another issue as well, in the Netherlands they made a lot of complex x helenae and complex x coccineum pot plants, that are legit under the tag 'Paphiopedilum hybrid. Same for Ho Chi Minh, used as pot plant...

Under the Lacey act, yes, but so far there has been legit import to the US, USFWS approved, of ALL the known species of Paphiopedilum, including hangianum, etc... under their legit name, well before Holger Perner or Glenn Decker did so... This includes even ooii, anitum, gigantifolium... 

Now, as I said previously, many growers have legit gigantifolium, but they will not make invoices to you at any cost. One invoice of a legit gigantifolium, for one plant, can launder thousands of wild gigantifolium, seed grown from illegal parents, hybrids... I made that mistake years ago too, selling gigantifolium with invoice and CITES, thanks to me they are legal around the world, and only thanks to me, no one else...

I belive that the three people who imported ooii with a CITES ( one well known paph grower too...), or hangianum, some years ago in the USA, will NEVER issue any invoice. You pay in cash, get the plant, but they could not charge anyone the proper price for legalizing millions of plants by making an invoice... ( I do indeed have a CITES for ooii, but I will never release any plants of it with a copy of the CITES indeed...)


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## NYEric (Apr 21, 2012)

You can get any paph in this country, you just have to know where/who. CITES enforcement in the USA is crippling the ability of vendors to sell crosses. A simpler annual comparison of which countries are registering hybrids will show this. Forget awards, think sales.


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## Gcroz (Apr 21, 2012)

My head is swimming... seems my understanding of how this all works together wasn't complete.

When you say a tag of "Paphiopedilum hybrid" you mean a tag that does not include the proper parentage info or name of the hybrid?

Also, it was my understanding that Vietnam never released any legal _hangianum_ to the US, or as I understood it any country. Therefore, until Perner started releasing "Chinese" _hangianum_, shouldn't all the others be fruit of the poisonous tree? How then were these plants entering the US legally for commercial trade?

I admit, it seems there is a lot of misinformation going around. It's also early for me after a long night with a teething baby, so perhaps the brain isn't firing correctly.


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## NYEric (Apr 21, 2012)

Example. If there are plants of hangianum legally in USA, even in an approved rescue center, and I import whatever x hangianum, I can do it legally. BTW, thank you to Sun Moon for their endeavors at Miami WOC. :evil:


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## Roth (Apr 21, 2012)

Gcroz said:


> Also, it was my understanding that Vietnam never released any legal _hangianum_ to the US, or as I understood it any country. Therefore, until Perner started releasing "Chinese" _hangianum_, shouldn't all the others be fruit of the poisonous tree? How then were these plants entering the US legally for commercial trade?



No. there has been legal hangianum before Perner ones, from China and from Vietnam. Some are in the CITES trade database, the flasks were not ( exported from Vietnam with the proper permits in 2006...).


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## Gcroz (Apr 22, 2012)

Here is the text from an email regarding my Paph. Chiu Hua Dancer. I hope you can see my confusion regarding the legality of certain Paphs in the US:

_"It has been brought to my attention by Ron McHatton, Chief Operating Officer at the AOS, that Paphiopedilum gigantifolium (and its hybrids) is ineligible for AOS judging. Ron is also in charge of Education, Nomenclature, Research and Regional Outreach. Per his note to me on June 29, 2010:

'According to the US Fish & Wildlife, these (note: referring to Paph gigantifolium) are not legally in cultivation anywhere - yes I know they are for sale here ... but there is a disconnect between USDA which clears plants and F&W which enforces CITES. Since no plants of gigantifolium can trace their history to legally obtained material none of their offspring can either. This then makes it impossible to clear them based on the CITES exemption for hybrids of paphiopedilum. Also, the JC voted (approved by the trustees) that we are no longer able to judge any of the post-ban species and their hybrids anywhere in the world unless it's the country of origin and they are collected legally or they have been released into the US by a rescue center.'"_


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## jtrmd (Apr 22, 2012)

McHatton responded to an email sent yesterday by my friend about hers and he said that once they receive a copy of the Decker paperwork that the award will be reinstated.I will see if she will forward me the text of the message and I will pos it.





Gcroz said:


> Here is the text from an email regarding my Paph. Chiu Hua Dancer. I hope you can see my confusion regarding the legality of certain Paphs in the US:
> 
> _"It has been brought to my attention by Ron McHatton, Chief Operating Officer at the AOS, that Paphiopedilum gigantifolium (and its hybrids) is ineligible for AOS judging. Ron is also in charge of Education, Nomenclature, Research and Regional Outreach. Per his note to me on June 29, 2010:
> 
> 'According to the US Fish & Wildlife, these (note: referring to Paph gigantifolium) are not legally in cultivation anywhere - yes I know they are for sale here ... but there is a disconnect between USDA which clears plants and F&W which enforces CITES. Since no plants of gigantifolium can trace their history to legally obtained material none of their offspring can either. This then makes it impossible to clear them based on the CITES exemption for hybrids of paphiopedilum. Also, the JC voted (approved by the trustees) that we are no longer able to judge any of the post-ban species and their hybrids anywhere in the world unless it's the country of origin and they are collected legally or they have been released into the US by a rescue center.'"_


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## Gcroz (Apr 22, 2012)

jtrmd said:


> McHatton responded to an email sent yesterday by my friend about hers and he said that once they receive a copy of the Decker paperwork that the award will be reinstated.I will see if she will forward me the text of the message and I will pos it.



This is good news! I was told in no uncertain terms that since the award had been nullified, I had no recourse and had to have the plant re-judged. I think I'll go and email McHatton tomorrow and see what happens. I'll post the reply!


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## Roth (Apr 23, 2012)

Gcroz said:


> This is good news! I was told in no uncertain terms that since the award had been nullified, I had no recourse and had to have the plant re-judged. I think I'll go and email McHatton tomorrow and see what happens. I'll post the reply!



Tell him to go to www.cites.org 
Resources
Trade Database
Then
Expert mode...
Then import country USA

He can check what the USFWS legally accepted for import, several times gigantifolium, and countless hybrids...


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## tenman (Apr 27, 2012)

Gcroz said:


> Personally, I don't think AOS should be in the habit of playing CITES politics or in the habit of doing USFWS job for them. Stick to judging all orchids and let others enforce the laws and treaties. AOS isn't an enforcement agency...



AMEN!


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