# My new puppy!



## Sirius (Apr 7, 2008)

5 Weeks Old

I can't contain myself any more! I have to show you all these photos of my new puppy, Sirius. He is a white Boxer, and just turned 5 weeks old. He won't be coming home for another 3 weeks, and I can't wait. I just found out today that his eyes will probably stay blue. He passed a hearing test, so he is not deaf (which is a common genetic defect in many predominantly white animal species from what I read). His nose will eventually turn all the way black, but it has been fun watching the process of black freckles appear on his nose. Anyway, I am very excited about getting him, and my wife has fallen in love with him after the visits we have made to the breeder. We have our fingers crossed that he checks out ok at the vet. It is so hard to wait!





4 Weeks Old





3 Weeks Old





1 Week Old





3 Days Old


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## biothanasis (Apr 7, 2008)

LOVELY... and cute...!!!! I think it likes the camera a lot... You have a superstar...!!!!  Be patient and time will pass very quickly...


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## Elena (Apr 7, 2008)

I wouldn't be able to contain myself either. He's just precious :smitten:


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## Heather (Apr 7, 2008)

Sirius is just adorable! I love the new pics and his freckles!


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## likespaphs (Apr 7, 2008)

so cute! boxers are neato


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## rdlsreno (Apr 7, 2008)

He is sooooo adorable!!!!!:smitten:

Ramon


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## ohio-guy (Apr 7, 2008)

He looks like a great pup! Congratulations!


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## Sirius (Apr 8, 2008)

We played with him for 30 minutes this afternoon. He is cute, and he knows it! Shortly after he licked my face in the picture above, he pulled a Mike Tyson on my ear lobe.  He was all "snuggles and love" with my wife.




\

His right eye is brilliant blue, and the left is slightly darker blue-green. He is only six weeks old, so I guess they still might change, I don't know.


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## cnycharles (Apr 8, 2008)

sounds like he was already trying to tell you that he was the boss! i'd love to have another dog but it just isn't doable with the way things are now


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## Ernie (Apr 8, 2008)

How about _B. cereus_? As in _Bacillus cereus_!  Although your little guy certainly doesn't cause nausea and intestinal disruption! He's C-U-T-E cute! My wife loves boxers (the doggies mostly). 

-Ernie


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## Heather (Apr 8, 2008)

I about fell over and died from cuteness when I saw that first photo - watch out for those claws though - he's gonna be big, I think!


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## MoreWater (Apr 9, 2008)

Very interesting eye colour. I see this is going to be one spoiled puppy. (okay, he's cute, like he needs more people to say that!) You even have a Day 3 photo!


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## Greenpaph (Apr 9, 2008)

Nice progressive shots, John!

Beautiful pup! I have never seen a white boxer!

:clap::clap:


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## streetmorrisart (Apr 9, 2008)

Greenpaph said:


> I have never seen a white boxer!
> 
> :clap::clap:



Me neither, but he's very cute! I liked the one boxer I knew--spastic but friendly.


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## Ron-NY (Apr 9, 2008)

he is adorable


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## Sirius (Apr 9, 2008)

Here are some snippets of info about Boxers that I have learned over the past couple of months...

-White Boxers are not albinos. They contain the Piebald gene, which is the same gene that causes the white coloration in Dalmations and English Bulldogs. The Boxer "breed" is actually a hybrid between the now extinct German Bullenbeiszer and the Bulldog, which as you may know can be brown or white.

-Approximately 25% of all Boxer puppies are born white, or mostly white. The litter that Sirius was born in had 3 white puppies, and 6 flashy/brindle puppies.

-White Boxers can have blue eyes, blue green eyes, brown eyes or any combination of these, i.e. one brown, one blue.

-20% of all the white Boxer puppies are born partially or completely deaf. This is due to the lack of pigment in the cells of the inner ear. This genetic defect also occurs in Dalmations, Bulldogs, and several other dog breeds. It can also occur in cats, especially those that are white with blue eyes.

-White Boxer puppies are often killed at birth. Read that again. 

Until very recently, the American Kennel Club supported the culling, or killing of white Boxer puppies at birth. Today, many Boxer breeders still kill all the white puppies as soon as they are born. They freeze them in the freezer, drown them, or break their necks. The AKC has softened their stance on culling, but they have not banned it as a practice

I am sorry to be so blunt about this, but when I found out that dog breeders were putting puppies to death that were otherwise as perfectly healthy as their brown siblings, I was furious. It's a good thing I don't have the powers of Superman, because I would tear these people in half if I could.

White Boxers should not be bred, because it will increase the gene that causes deafness in the breed. I understand and agree with this concept. But to kill healthy puppies, or somehow say that they are less deserving of a happy life because they have a higher chance of being deaf is absurd. All Dalmations can be born deaf. White Bulldogs can be born deaf. Many other white dog breeds can be born deaf. I don't understand why white Boxers are culled like they are.

White Boxers are also sold as "limited registration" animals. This means that they are considered second class dogs by the AKC. They cannot be shown in dog shows, except for obedience/agility contests, and they are not to be bred. Any puppy born to white parents is not eligible to be registered as a full blooded Boxer.

I knew I wanted a Boxer, and after our cat Lefty died, we needed some new energy in our lives. When I found out about the white Boxer, I knew that I wanted one. I have his papers from the breeder, but I am not going to register him. I refuse to support the AKC in any way. 

Oprah recently did a story on puppy mills and how the dogs they raise are often abused. From what I have read, many so called "Professional" breeders aren't much better. I purchased Sirius from a private dog owner who is raising the puppies inside her home with her family. This type of "back yard breeding" is also looked down upon by professional dog breeders, but at least they don't kill the white puppies.

Ok, I am off my soapbox now.


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## Sirius (Apr 9, 2008)

Here is a link to some more information about deafness in white colored animals if anyone is interested.

http://www.lsu.edu/deafness/genet.htm

Go here for more information about white Boxers.

http://www.boxerbuddies.org/Boxer Info/white_boxers.htm


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## goldenrose (Apr 10, 2008)

I hesitate in making this post BUT ...... here I am!
John has gathered some good information & makes some good points. There is another side to the fence, it's only fair to look at both sides. I would like to speak from a dog instructor's position & as a breeder. 
It's very hard being a dog (or any pet) lover to sometimes seperate your emotions from this whole picture. Sometimes we need to face reality. Keep in mind how many *healthy* dogs of any age, any breed are destroyed in animal shelters every day.
As a dog obedience instructor I have dealt with pet owners TRYING in vain to train a deaf dog. Most don't really know how much work it will be & after 6 months (if that), realize they can't cope with it. Now what is to become of this animal? Who's going to want it? What type of fate will it be met with? Where's that happy life? Consider the high energy level of a boxer. When outdoors this dog can only be off leash in a secure area, if the dog squeezes out the gate or an open door, you're in big trouble. What's worse - culling at birth or being hit by a car or abused? 
The AKC is being criticized for supporting culling. Reality check. In the wild does nature have it's way of culling? Just think a moment, there's culling going on all around us. I would like to hear from some of the European countries. Back in the '70's when I got involved in dog training I met a Dobe breeder. He trained protection dogs/breeds. He claimed that in Germany, you as a breeder you DID NOT have a choice in culling. All litters were automatically culled down to a certain number & you as the breeder did not have a choice in deciding who stayed & who went! Can you imagine some stranger coming into your home & making these decisions??? YIKES!!! If this was true back then, I would have never been a breeder in Germany! 
Don't be to quick to paint a nice picture of backyard breeders. YES -There are some good ones (you are fortunate). There are BAD "professional" breeders as well. There is a reason why "professional", (I prefer the word "experienced") breeders look down upon them. Most do not educate themselves before taking this big step. They have no idea what are the health problems in their breed. Do they have health clearances on the dog they want to, or are going to, or did already breed? NO! How could they, they didn't know? They didn't take the time to research it. Did they buy this dog from a reputable breeder? Well ..... What's wrong with buying from the pet shop after all they have papers?! What are the reasons you want to breed this dog? Because you think it would be nice to experience 'motherhood' thru your dog? Because it would be good for your kids to see puppies being born? And what happens when the inexperienced momma dog accidently chews off the puppy's front leg while chewing thru the amblical cord? What happens when the momma dog dies 24-48 hours later? What are your dog's physical faults/structural weaknesses? Well look - 4 legs, 2 eyes, 2 ears, a nose & a tail - what faults?! Does the mate share these SAME faults? Most importantly - what is the temperment of your dog? Here's where emotions come into play big time! The dog has a wonderful temperment, he/she just doesn't like some people, other dogs, being touched in certain places, etc. the list goes on!
As a breeder, you get blamed for everything. A conscientious breeder can do all the health clearances, try to make the best decisions on a mate, but yet it's still your fault if every dog isn't perfect. So often I get asked, are your dogs guaranteed? My reply is NO. I then proceed to ask them what health problems are in your family, your spouse's family? Did that stop you from procreating? What guarantee do you give your children? Sheds a little bit different light, doesn't it? I can't control mother nature, there are no guarantees in life! I'll try to do the best I can!
Time to get off my soapbox!


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## Sirius (Apr 10, 2008)

Goldenrose,

What about pet owners who buy a dog just because it's fashionable, and then later abuse them or drop them off in a shelter? Isn't this more a problem of stupid people being allowed to purchase a dog and not so much a problem of deaf dogs being hard to train? I would bet good money that a majority of animals that end up in the humane society are the product of people not spaying/neutering, or not taking responsiblility for their hearing pets. 

I think what you were trying to say is that deaf animals could end up abused, abandoned or in a shelter because they are difficult to train. If this is the point you were trying to make, then I must imagine you also support the killing of deaf Dalmation puppies, deaf Bulldog puppies, and deaf Persian kittens? Or are we talking about killing white Boxers only? 

You ask what is worse, culling puppies that MAY end up deaf, or a deaf dog being hit by a car. I am going to have to go with culling as my answer. See, the breeders who cull white Boxers don't wait until the puppies are a few weeks old, until the ear canal opens and the puppy becomes aware of it's environment. If they waited until this point, they could perform simple hearing tests to determine which puppies are deaf. But then they would have to kill a five week old deaf puppy that looks like the one in my pictures above. You would have to be a real monster to do that. So instead, they simply put all the white puppies, hearing and non hearing, in the freezer until they freeze to death. So much more humane don't you agree?

My criticism of the AKC runs far deeper than just supporting culling. Let's be honest, the main reason white Boxers are culled is because they don't fit the breed standard. If white Boxers could be shown in dog shows, you would see an immediate turnaround in culling practice. If deafness is really the reason that white Boxers are culled, then why does the AKC allow Dalmations to be bred at all? Every single Dalmation puppy ever born stands a chance of being born deaf. I really hope entire litters of Dalmations are not being culled.

You say nature performs culling. Sure, and if a puppy is born with a severe birth defect, I support the humane euthanization of the puppy. But we aren't talking about puppies with severe birth defects here, or even puppies born in the wild. We are talking about healthy white Boxers that have a 1 in 5 chance of being deaf, but otherwise completely healthy. Yet, all of them are killed before hearing tests can even be performed. How civil. Circle of life and all that, right?

I am not trying to bully you, but I do want to state my opinion, and I just think all the arguments to support culling are total bull. There is no reason for it. Or, if you are still saying that the chance a puppy may be born deaf is a good reason to cull the puppy, why not wait until the puppy is old enough to go through a hearing test, giving the hearing puppies a chance to find a good home? Because only the brown puppies can be shown in the ring, so why bother with the white puppies? That's why.


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## goldenrose (Apr 11, 2008)

John - As a started my post, I indicated one needs to take their emotions out of this whole picture & that is hard for some of us to do. Those that can do it may come across as cold blooded or heartless. You are entitled to YOUR opinion as am I. You once again make some good points - by 3-4 weeks of age a breeder could easily detect a deaf puppy, it would probably take another 1-2 weeks to notice a blind or partially blind puppy. Most puppies are fully weaned & ready to go to their new homes at 7 weeks of age. At this stage of the game, how would you or anyone else know if this animal has/ or will have a compromised immune system? These are all things mentioned in the links you provided, that can be associated with white Boxers. Yes, SOME will be fine. Will you be the lucky one to recieve that dog?
Your links indicate that white boxers have the same temperment of colored ones. I agree a color gene should not have any affect on temperment but deafness does or can. What if that deaf dog is not trusting? You now have a potential fearbiter on your hands. Is that really a happy, perfectly healthy dog? People invest so much in their animals - time, emotion & money. Call me a murderer if you'd like but if I can spare A WHOLE FAMILY that kind of heartbreak & agony then I will cull if I have to. Do I like to cull - HELL NO! It is just sometimes necessary. Can it be done humanely - YES. Would I have any of the breeds you mentioned? NO, because then I'd be forced to make decisions I don't want to make & have to act on them! 
Alot of breeds are/or were a mess because of us humans interfering. Who's going to clean up the mess & how? Selective breeding, test breeding & along with that, unfortunately, comes culling. There are only so many homes out there for handicap dogs. Do you wonder what breed I have? Golden Retrievers.


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## Sirius (Apr 11, 2008)

goldenrose said:


> You once again make some good points - by 3-4 weeks of age a breeder could easily detect a deaf puppy, it would probably take another 1-2 weeks to notice a blind or partially blind puppy.



Why are you bringing blindness into the equation? White Boxers are no more inclined to blindness than their brindle siblings. This discussion is about deafness, which aside from ability to sunburn, is the only health issue white Boxers encounter more than their brown siblings. 



goldenrose said:


> Most puppies are fully weaned & ready to go to their new homes at 7 weeks of age. At this stage of the game, how would you or anyone else know if this animal has/ or will have a compromised immune system? These are all things mentioned in the links you provided, that can be associated with white Boxers.



I think you need to re-read the links I posted. Not once is it mentioned that white Boxers have compromised immune systems. You are perpetuating myths that white dogs are somehow less healthy than their colored counterparts. I suggest you read this essay... http://www.newcastleboxers.com/white.shtml

I think you might find the last paragraph interesting 

_"An independent Boxer Health Survey by Hawkleigh Boxers reveals that the only health problems that are "significantly" (my term - at least 1% more incidence) more frequent in white Boxers are deafness and sunburn. In fact, white Boxers are "significantly" less affected by skin tumors, gastrointestinal disorders, and spinal/skeletal problems. Granted, this is an unscientific survey based on anecdotal evidence - but it seems to at least indicate a need for further study." _

While it is not definitive proof that whites are any healthier than colored Boxers, it sure does counter the myth that whites are more prone to health problems than colored Boxers.



goldenrose said:


> Yes, SOME will be fine. Will you be the lucky one to recieve that dog?



I am not sure how to respond to this. I think it's a big crapshoot buying any pet, especially "pure"bred dogs (what a joke that term is). I don't want to go into all of the genetic diseases that can affect all Boxer puppies like hip dysplasia and heart murmurs. That would lead to a huge discussion about all dog breeds, including Golden Retrievers, and frankly I want to stick to the discussion of white Boxers. My main point has still gone unanswered. You seem to support that white Boxer puppies should be culled at birth because they stand a 1 in 5 chance of being born deaf. 

I recently read an article which quoted a Boxer breeder as saying that he culled white puppies because he couldn't stand the idea of someone breeding a white boxer. This argument is so monumentally retarded. Two brown boxers bred together will produce 25% white puppies. SO, to minimize the chance of more white puppies being born, you kill them. Then breed more brown boxers, which produce more white puppies, which you kill. How is this reducing the number of white puppies born? Wouldn't it be better to spay/neuter the white puppies instead, preventing them from being bred but still providing great family pets? That is exactly what some breeders are doing.

I will leave you with this thought GoldenRose, because obviously neither one of us is any less passionate about our own ideas, and we could go on debating each other enlessly in this thread while other forum members ignore us. 

White Bulldogs are allowed by the AKC to be shown in competition. White Bulldog puppies are prone to being born deaf, because they have the same gene that Boxers carry. The Bulldog is the ancestor of the Boxer for crimeny sake! Here is a link to the Bulldog standard... http://www.akc.org/breeds/bulldog/index.cfm

Now, here is a link to the Boxer standard... http://www.akc.org/breeds/boxer/index.cfm White Boxers are not allowed for showing. One in five white Boxers are born deaf, and yet many white puppies are killed at birth that will grow up to be healthy, hearing and happy dogs for some family. You can't deny this.

Why is there a difference in the breed standard for Bulldogs, and the breed standard for Boxers? Because a long time ago, some jackass decided that it should be so. I would hope that eventually, this will change.

The AKC, by setting breed standards that aren't based in reality, promotes the killing of healthy puppies. No emotion is involved in this statement. I am not some PETA whacko with an agenda. I am merely letting everyone see it with their own eyes. Why did two members post that they had never seen a white Boxer before? Because there simply aren't as many of them around, as there are colored boxers. Yet.


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## cnycharles (Apr 11, 2008)

all other points aside, I would think that if a breeder were to wait until they could tell if the puppy were deaf, spay/neuter them at the appropriate time and then offer them to families then that would be fine. if as it is stated that these white dogs aren't albinos and they are offspring of other white dogs then from the info it doesn't seem like they are any more unfortunately likely to have a bunch more health problems than many other acceptable breeds. if the pups are released as 'non-propagating' pets like many animals that go through rescue programs, they can't further the possible genes to make more animals that could really have many health problems.


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## Sirius (Apr 11, 2008)

Exactly Charles! And this is starting to happen, but it is very slow in process. 

I couldn't care less about showing dogs. But it just seems that the breed standards that dictate showing dogs is causing the acceptance of white Boxers to happen more slowly than it should. After all, white Bulldogs are born deaf every day, yet you can show a white Bulldog in the ring while white Boxers are still being killed at birth. Something is rotten in Denmark with this kind of spotty logic.


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## kentuckiense (Apr 12, 2008)

How did I miss this? Awesome puppy. I _need_ a dog.


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## cnycharles (Apr 13, 2008)

i used to own a red/white border collie until he was pts because of cancer. many border collie owners especially those who used them for herding were adamant that the akc not have them be an 'accepted' breed to be included in their registry, because they had concerns that bc's don't have a 'standard' look and they were bred to have a behavior pattern (herding instinct), and that an akc breed standard would be bad for the breed. i also had peripheral contact with bc breed rescue and know that many bc's had health problems like many other breeds because of those who bred them for looks, especially different colors like red/white, red merle and blue merle. one of the problems my dog had that was documented for color breeding was retinal decay though that's not the proper term for it. 
dog standards have no rhyme or reason, and like with orchids the striving for 'perfection' of some stated standard usually ends up with things not ending up well for either one a good percentage of the time. it is a shame that mostly healthy animals are killed, but then it is just as bad that there so many people who are breeding for things that should be avoided in the first place or the whole process should be thought about a lot more beforehand. there are so many animals already, that more breeding really doesn't need to be done unless it is to try and rescue a breed that has had lots of things happen to it, like changing conformation standards for german shepherds


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## practicallyostensible (Apr 13, 2008)

My family breeds and shows Rhodesian Ridgebacks, who like most other pure bred dogs have congenital problems. All of our dogs are x-rayed prior to being bred for hip, elbow, and shoulder problems. Our dogs however, are still pron to issues, namely dermoid cysts and being ridgeless. We don't cull dogs. Ridgeless dogs, like most white dogs, have a cosmetic defect, other then that they are good sound dogs. One puppy in our last litter was born with a small dermoid cyst, it had a small surgery and was sent off to a great home to lead a normal healthy life. All of our dogs are non-showing dogs sent our with spay/neuter contracts, and we require all owners to send us copies of the vet bill proving that the procedure was indeed carried out. Some breeders cull ridgeless dogs and dogs with dermoids (no matter how small). I personally think that the practice is barbaric. If we culled every "pet-quality" dog in a litter we would only wind up with 2 or 3 out of 9 to 12, and a lot of great people would miss out on having a great companion. Our pet quality dogs can still lure course, can still herd, can still do obediance, can still be the best friend you've ever had. The bottom line is, responsible breeders keep issues to an absolute minimum in the first place, period. That brings me to the following quote:



PHRAG said:


> Oprah recently did a story on puppy mills and how the dogs they raise are often abused. From what I have read, many so called "Professional" breeders aren't much better. I purchased Sirius from a private dog owner who is raising the puppies inside her home with her family. This type of "back yard breeding" is also looked down upon by professional dog breeders, but at least they don't kill the white puppies.



I don't know how you are defining "professional breeder", but I can tell you that I know just about every person that shows Rhodesian Ridgebacks in California, as well as the top breeders nationwide, and we all raise our dogs in our homes and our puppies underfoot. We sleep with the litter so no puppy is rolled over and would most definitely take offense to being called either a "backyard breeder" or a"professional breeder". Backyard breeders don't screen their dogs for problems prior to breeding and don't keep careful documentation of their lineages. Reputable breeders aren't doing it for profit, we do it because we love the breed and our dogs. Trust me between vet bills, vaccinations, missed days of work and sleepless nights we hardly break even.


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## Sirius (Apr 14, 2008)

practicallyostensible said:


> I don't know how you are defining "professional breeder", but I can tell you that I know just about every person that shows Rhodesian Ridgebacks in California, as well as the top breeders nationwide, and we all raise our dogs in our homes and our puppies underfoot. We sleep with the litter so no puppy is rolled over and would most definitely take offense to being called either a "backyard breeder" or a"professional breeder". Backyard breeders don't screen their dogs for problems prior to breeding and don't keep careful documentation of their lineages. Reputable breeders aren't doing it for profit, we do it because we love the breed and our dogs. Trust me between vet bills, vaccinations, missed days of work and sleepless nights we hardly break even.



Well, the terms I have chosen to use are thrown about without any real definition by every dog group on the web. I am sorry if you took offense to my usage of them, but honestly, these are the terms used by breeders online. Here are my interpretations...

Professional (or experienced, if you wish) breeder: A person who raises one breed of dog with the intention of continuing champion bloodline show dogs. They probably test their animals before breeding them, and participate in culling puppies that they consider outside the breed standard regardless of physical condition. They may have a kennel built to house the numbers of breeding dogs they may have at any given time. The dogs are not raised in puppy mill conditions, but they aren't raised in the home either. Conformation is king, all else is a waste of time. 

Amateur, or "Backyard" breeder: A person who breeds whatever registered dog they can get their hands on. They often do not own both parents of the litter, and do not perform any health testing of the animals prior to breeding. They often try to sell the puppies at a premium, before panicking when they don't sell and end up giving some of the puppies away. The worst case scenario in action.

You can obviously understand my confusion with these terms when they are used quite often to describe many different types of breeders. In between the worst case scenario and the champion bloodline breeder are all the gray area folks.

We can discuss all the semantics and terms we want. What it all boils down to is this: healthy Boxer puppies, and the occasional deaf but otherwise healthy Boxer puppy are destroyed by breeders who claim they are doing it for the right reasons. There are no right reasons to destroy healthy animals. That's the point I wanted to make, and I think I made it somewhere in between all the other discussion. I will post some more cute pics soon, since that was the original reason for the thread.


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## goldenrose (Apr 14, 2008)

PHRAG said:


> Why are you bringing blindness into the equation? White Boxers are no more inclined to blindness than their brindle siblings. This discussion is about deafness, which aside from ability to sunburn, is the only health issue white Boxers encounter more than their brown siblings.
> 
> The boxer buddies link, under 10 Quick White Boxer FAQ's, #5 states that some can be both & #6 brings up the subject of cancer. I used the term compromised immune system (to try to keep the post shorter) because if one's body is working correctly, one should not get any disease.
> 
> ...


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## DukeBoxer (Apr 15, 2008)

John, nice dog! I have one, as you can see in my avatar. He's almost 4 years old. You're in for a ride for sure! I brought mine up in Costa Rica at a mountain hotel that we worked at. He was allowed to run free all day long, there was more than enough room there for him, and the tourists loved him. I wanted a white one but the litter was all colored. One thing I read about white boxers is this. One of the first "Boxers" from the bullenbieser cross was actually white, it was a female, I forget the name. Anyway, right away from the creation of the breed there were always white ones, but at one point the German police started using them as police dogs, and the white one were more visible at night, which made them less desirable, and that is when they started breeding away from the whites, or discouraging them.

Thats something I read somewhere, if it's true or not, I'm not sure, but it sounds like it could be believable. Take care, good luck and be prepared for a lot of laughs, they are real characters!!!


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