# Phrag. besseae, jungle form



## John M (Sep 10, 2010)

This came from Equagenera years ago. Presumably, it was originally wild collected; or, at the least, first generation seed grown. By today's standards, it's no award winner; but, I like it's colour intensity and side-branching habit. Plus, as much as I love the big, round line-bred besseaes of today, I kind of like having one with the classic "wild look" in my collection.


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## Shiva (Sep 10, 2010)

Gorgeous John! I agree with your comments. Wild is nice!


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## goldenrose (Sep 10, 2010)

:clap: :drool: :clap: :drool: :clap: I'll take classic too!
This is a funny species for me, can't grow straight bess, some bess X's do really well for me, others ..... :sob:


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## Drorchid (Sep 10, 2010)

Hi John,

This one looks a lot like the one that was labeled dalessandroi that I posted earlier, but everyone thought was a Phrag. Jersey (or a sib cross between 2 natural hybrids of besseae and dalessandroi).

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17443

As yours also branches do you think this may be a natural hybrid between dalessandroi and besseae?

Robert


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## Kyle (Sep 10, 2010)

From my observation of besseae in the wild - two populations - large healthy plants will branch. I think it is a testiment to Johns growing ability that he can get a plant to branch.

Robert, do any of your peruvian besseaes branch? Or self pollenate?

Could be a natural hybrid, or that ecuagenera accidentally made Jersey. Knowing what I know about the pollenatoin of phrags and the geography of south america, I don't see these two species hybridizing in the wild. There is to much distance between the populations. Assuming there isn't a hidden dalessandroi population near the besseae population.

Kyle


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## Lanmark (Sep 10, 2010)

Nice! It's certainly a keeper!


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## John M (Sep 10, 2010)

Thanks very much for your comments everybody!



Drorchid said:


> Hi John,
> 
> This one looks a lot like the one that was labeled dalessandroi that I posted earlier, but everyone thought was a Phrag. Jersey (or a sib cross between 2 natural hybrids of besseae and dalessandroi).
> 
> ...



I agree Robert. I almost posted this photo in your thread because of the discussion there and what I was thinking about this plant. However, I decided to post it as besseae, which is the name it had when purchased from Ecuagenera (by Wendy) and see if anyone picked up on it's dalessandroi "look". Interestingly, I also posted this over at OSF and Eric Christenson commented that he though it was likely a cross between besseae and dalessandroi. 

It does have narrow petals like dal. and it's got lots of colour on the staminode sheild as well as the branching habit; but, it was sold as pure besseae (by people who *should* know the difference), it's got nice, rich petal colour of besseae and it has a strongly ascending growth habit, just like besseae. So, I'm just not sure; but, I'm leaning towards it being a man-made hybrid between the two. Perhaps Ecuagenera made the cross way back when the two were widely considered to be the same species and treated as such?



> From my observation of besseae in the wild - two populations - large healthy plants will branch. I think it is a testiment to Johns growing ability that he can get a plant to branch.
> 
> Robert, do any of your peruvian besseaes branch? Or self pollenate?
> 
> Could be a natural hybrid, or that ecuagenera accidentally made Jersey. Knowing what I know about the pollenatoin of phrags and the geography of south america, I don't see these two species hybridizing in the wild. There is to much distance between the populations. Assuming there isn't a hidden dalessandroi population near the besseae population.



Thanks for the compliment, Kyle. I do have other besseae that branch. The one on the home page of my website branches and it definitely does NOT look like dalessandroi; plus, it's got about 6 inches of rhizome between growths! As far as this clone (pictured above), is concerned, I do think it's likely that Ecuagenera accidentally made Jersey. This flower has a dalessandroi "look"; but, not enough to look like pure dalessandroi. To be honest, I do think that my culture, while adequate, could've been better. It's way overdue for some fresh mix and it shares it's pot with plenty of grass (seeds were planted there by a chipmunk about 4 or 5 years ago)!


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## Shiva (Sep 10, 2010)

It looks a lot like the besseae picture on orchidspecies.com.


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## John M (Sep 10, 2010)

Yes, it sure does. Plus, that site doesn't even mention the branching habit of dalessandroi or the growth habit (ascending/clumping), of either one.


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## Kyle (Sep 10, 2010)

Although possible that they made a hybrid by mistake, Its unlikely. They keep know exactly which plants are which, because one costs $20 and the other $250+. Within each species there is a large variation, some will look like dalessandroi, while some not. Your is from that end of the spectrum. Plus the wild population where Ecuagenera first collected thier plants tend to have that 'look'. I would keep it labeled as besseae. Take a profile of of the plant, the two species hold thier ovaries at different angles.

Kyle


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## John M (Sep 10, 2010)

Kyle said:


> Although possible that they made a hybrid by mistake, Its unlikely. *That's what I figured originally: but, I keep flip/flopping back and forth between thinking it's pure besseae and a cross with dalessandroi.*They know exactly which plants are which, because one costs $20 and the other $250+.  Within each species there is a large variation, some will look like dalessandroi, while some not. Your is from that end of the spectrum. Plus the wild population where Ecuagenera first collected thier plants tend to have that 'look'. *Do you mean "their besseae plants"?* I would keep it labeled as besseae. Take a profile of of the plant, the two species hold thier ovaries at different angles. *I remember reading that before. Which is which? How does besseae hold it's ovary as compared to dalessandroi?*
> 
> Kyle


..


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## Kyle (Sep 10, 2010)

Yes, I mean the location where their besseae plants were collected from. 

Besseae holds it ovaries more horizontal, long and skinny. Dalessandroi are tighter to the stem, and shorter.






Kyle


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## gonewild (Sep 10, 2010)

Kyle.... How close to the Peruvian boarder did they collect besseae in Ecuador?


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## Kyle (Sep 10, 2010)

Here are some more pictures which show some differences











Kyle


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## John M (Sep 10, 2010)

Thanks Kyle. I'll go take a profile photo. Re: your photos. I can see what you mean about the ovaries; but, for the other photos, which is which? You haven't labelled them and told us what we're supposed to be looking at....besseae or dalessandroi.

'Just got back from the greenhouse. Here's a photo of the profile. Sorry for the poor quality and "off" colour. It's almost dark and I had to tweak my camera settings to get anything. Plus, I watered a bit late today; so, the flower was wet and reflecting the light in odd ways.





'Looks like besseae to me; but, if it were a hybrid, it would likely show some besseae characteristics; right? What do you think?


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## Drorchid (Sep 10, 2010)

Kyle said:


> From my observation of besseae in the wild - two populations - large healthy plants will branch. I think it is a testiment to Johns growing ability that he can get a plant to branch.
> 
> Robert, do any of your peruvian besseaes branch? Or self pollenate?
> 
> ...



Kyle, yes some of our Peruvian besseaes also branch (including our 4N 'Rob's Choice') especially when the plants are more mature. And yes we also have a Peruvian besseae that self pollinates. I am still not sure what the true identity of this plant is, just like dalessandroi it clumps, and does not form runners, but unlike dalessandroi, it self pollinates, and thus far does not branch, I think the differences are almost large enough to give it a different variety name. You mentioned you had seen a similar plant in Germany.

Here is a link to that plant:
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10726

Robert


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## NYEric (Sep 11, 2010)

It's a besseae!


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## phrag guy (Sep 11, 2010)

great color


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## biothanasis (Sep 12, 2010)

very nice flower with gorgeous colour!


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## Lars Pedersen (Sep 17, 2011)

Hi John

Have a look.here
http://forum.orkideer.dk/viewtopic.php?t=2325&start=30

There is a picture I took in Ecuador at the site Kyle mention.

I Think They are similar.

At the bottom a picture of one of mine in flower.


Lars


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## John M (Sep 17, 2011)

Thanks Lars. Yes, they do look similar. I like yours!


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## phrag guy (Sep 17, 2011)

very nice John,I agree with the right culture they will branch. Some years all my diffeernt ones branch other years they may not


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## SlipperFan (Sep 18, 2011)

Beautiful red.

Good information in this thread.


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