# Brown spots on new Phrag. schlimii growth



## Hamlet (Jan 11, 2015)

My Phrag. schlimii is making a new growth and it looks like this:







What could this be, bacterial infection or fungus, too much fertilizer? It's only on the new growth, none of the older leaves have those spots. The plant had brown leaf tips when I bought it but not on the leaves that have grown since in my care.

Thanks for any input and help in advance!


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## mrhappyrotter (Jan 11, 2015)

The leaves look very light, bright green in color, as you would expect a typical phrag to look. I'm finding that Phrag. schlimii grows better in shadier conditions. The leaves look darker, wider and the plant grows more quickly.

You should also consider keeping the potting mix (but not the leaves) wetter. The dieback looks like what you'd get if you let the plant dry out or if there's too much fertilizer salt (or built-up salts). Regular flushing with good quality water helps, as does keeping the plant sitting in a bit of water and/or watering more often (daily?).

I don't think it's a disease, though I could be wrong.


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## Erythrone (Jan 11, 2015)

mrhappyrotter said:


> The leaves look very light, bright green in color, as you would expect a typical phrag to look. I'm finding that Phrag. schlimii grows better in shadier conditions. The leaves look darker, wider and the plant grows more quickly.
> 
> You should also consider keeping the potting mix (but not the leaves) wetter. The dieback looks like what you'd get if you let the plant dry out or if there's too much fertilizer salt (or built-up salts). Regular flushing with good quality water helps, as does keeping the plant sitting in a bit of water and/or watering more often (daily?).
> 
> I don't think it's a disease, though I could be wrong.



I am with mrhappyrotter. Give your plant more water, less fertilizer and put it in a shadier spot.


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## Hamlet (Jan 11, 2015)

Thanks mrhappyrotter & Erythrone. 

I'm relieved to hear that it doesn't look like a disease. I'll move the plant to a shadier spot and water it more/fertilize less. Should I also cut the leaves with the spots?

I'm always wondering if I'm giving my Phrags enough fertilizer (usually about 80-100 μS, it seems so low to me) but I'll try giving even less now. Though this is the only Phrag with these spots, none of my others look like that. I do already let in sit in water too, but maybe I leave it in the pot for too long (a couple of days, then I pour it out).


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## Erythrone (Jan 11, 2015)

Your mix looks very coarse. Maybe the water cannot reach the top of it. How are the roots? Is your plant a division ?


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## mrhappyrotter (Jan 11, 2015)

Hamlet said:


> Thanks mrhappyrotter & Erythrone.
> 
> I'm relieved to hear that it doesn't look like a disease. I'll move the plant to a shadier spot and water it more/fertilize less. Should I also cut the leaves with the spots?
> 
> I'm always wondering if I'm giving my Phrags enough fertilizer (usually about 80-100 μS, it seems so low to me) but I'll try giving even less now. Though this is the only Phrag with these spots, none of my others look like that. I do already let in sit in water too, but maybe I leave it in the pot for too long (a couple of days, then I pour it out).



You can snip the end portion of the affected leaves, no problem. It's up to you really, it's mostly just a cosmetic concern.

I only mentioned the water part because the top of the mix looks a little dry. It may be that you need to water every other day, or at least splash the top of the mix a little to keep it more damp. Even with a relatively low feeding rate, I'd still be sure to flush the pots periodically with pure water.

It is possible the roots have been damaged, I assume that could manifest with similar symptoms on the leaves. Does (or has) the water in the saucer ever smelled sour? That's a sign that roots may be actively rotting.


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## Hamlet (Jan 11, 2015)

Erythrone said:


> Your mix looks very coarse. Maybe the water cannot reach the top of it. How are the roots? Is your plant a division ?





mrhappyrotter said:


> You can snip the end portion of the affected leaves, no problem. It's up to you really, it's mostly just a cosmetic concern.
> 
> I only mentioned the water part because the top of the mix looks a little dry. It may be that you need to water every other day, or at least splash the top of the mix a little to keep it more damp. Even with a relatively low feeding rate, I'd still be sure to flush the pots periodically with pure water.
> 
> It is possible the roots have been damaged, I assume that could manifest with similar symptoms on the leaves. Does (or has) the water in the saucer ever smelled sour? That's a sign that roots may be actively rotting.



The mix is standard bark with some stones and sea shells. The top layer looks dry but it's wet below that.

It's a division, yes.

The roots were fine when I last repotted it and as far as I can tell, they're still good. I'll probably repot the plant soon as roots are starting to grow out of the holes at the bottom of the pot, I hope I'll see a good root system then. I'm thinking of mixing some rock wool with the bark, maybe that would more evenly retain moisture.

The water in the saucer never had any kind of smell or odor. Although I did probably leave it in the saucer too long sometimes, as it had turned yellow/brownish already... Even then, I assume bacteria in the water would have smelled, no? I also didn't really flush the pot, I just poured out the water in the saucer and watered again from the top. Maybe that's where my fault lies?


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 11, 2015)

That reminds me of my first and only phrag Eumelia Arias, which is half schlimii. 
I bought mine with some brown tip, but didn't think much of it.
but then newly growing leaves had those same sunken brown marks, which got worse and worse slowly.
I hate to use chemicals in the house, so I just trimmed off the affected leaves. A few weeks and even months would pass without any symptoms only to show up again and again with long intervals.
So after about one year of battling, I got tired and pitched the plant.

Fertilizer burns eat up the leaf from the tip down.
Also, mine was fed very weakly, so it cannot be fertilizer burn.

I believe it's a brown rot (fungal) disease of some sort.


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## fibre (Jan 11, 2015)

To me it looks more like Oribatids (Moosmilben) or Tarsonemids (Weichhautmilben). They sit in the center of the crown and you see the symmetrical damage when the inner leaves grow out.


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## orcoholic (Jan 11, 2015)

This looks like a water based rot that happened a little while ago. The new leaf in the middle looks fine. Maybe try to be careful when watering if the orchid has any new growth - don't get any water on the tender new leaves - or better yet,, just water by letting the orchid sit in a tray of water i.e. no watering leaves or pot at all. Just keep putting fresh water in the tray.


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## mrhappyrotter (Jan 11, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> That reminds me of my first and only phrag Eumelia Arias, which is half schlimii.
> I bought mine with some brown tip, but didn't think much of it.
> but then newly growing leaves had those same sunken brown marks, which got worse and worse slowly.
> I hate to use chemicals in the house, so I just trimmed off the affected leaves. A few weeks and even months would pass without any symptoms only to show up again and again with long intervals.
> ...



I, agree, I can't rule out pathogens causing the damage.

I've seen this, or something like this before. In the affected plants, it was seemingly persistent. You could cut the leaf off, or cut it back, and there was still a good chance of it happening again. Cinnamon spray, neem oil, peroxide and things of that nature don't seem to have an effect.

But, what I did notice is that keeping the plant watered, keeping the water fresh, and seemingly most important, lowering the light level seems to be the magic bullet. I've never seen it occur on phrags that have dark green leaves (from lower light levels), only on the ones with brighter green leaves, and even then, it's usually only on newer leaves, which in theory get more light than lower ones.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 11, 2015)

Yes, the browning kept coming back although my plant was growing quite vigorously shooting up many fans. 
I was quite sad because the plant itself other than the brown issues were doing well. I've never seen anything growing that fast and well.

I had mine sitting in the water, and I was completely blown away how much difference it made! 

I want to buy that plant just for the fun of watching it grow. Maybe someday.


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## Erythrone (Jan 11, 2015)

I've found some divisions to be tricky to recover under my conditions, even if I received them with good roots. My Rosy Charm, my Foolerisch 4 N and a awarded division of a Red Baron showed similar symptoms as your plant. The roots roted. I repotted 2 of them tice in less than a year, reduce fertilisation and light, flush with "pure" water and they are now nice. I just repotted the Red Baron a few days ago after seeing an ugly black tip on a new growth... The root system was a mess.


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## abax (Jan 11, 2015)

I love seeing the posting of Je suis Charlie here. We all
stand together for France and the world. *holding a pencil
high*


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## tomkalina (Jan 12, 2015)

I've seen similar damage caused by watering or splashing the leaves with cold water.


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## NYEric (Jan 12, 2015)

I think it is a rot problem and not an insect problem because there is no trace of insects showing. Just be careful watering but, watch for thrips and their larvae in your mix.


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## Erythrone (Jan 12, 2015)

abax said:


> I love seeing the posting of Je suis Charlie here. We all
> stand together for France and the world. *holding a pencil
> high*



I am glad to read this !oke:


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## SlipperFan (Jan 12, 2015)

abax said:


> I love seeing the posting of Je suis Charlie here. We all
> stand together for France and the world. *holding a pencil
> high*





Erythrone said:


> I am glad to read this !oke:



I'm holding my pencil high, also. Je suis Charlie.


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## Erythrone (Jan 12, 2015)

SlipperFan said:


> I'm holding my pencil high, also. Je suis Charlie.



oke:


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## Hamlet (Jan 13, 2015)

Thanks everyone for your input. I'll repot the plant tomorrow to see how the root system is doing.

I must say, this is a great community. I've browsed many orchid forums and usually you see two or three replies and that's it. Here people really try to help and generally it seems there's more replies in threads than in many other forums, that's awesome! It's the main reason besides this being a slipper specific forum why I chose to register here.

Also: Moi aussi, je suis Charlie.



fibre said:


> To me it looks more like Oribatids (Moosmilben) or Tarsonemids (Weichhautmilben). They sit in the center of the crown and you see the symmetrical damage when the inner leaves grow out.



I hope it's not that but I'll make sure to examine the crown.


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## fibre (Jan 13, 2015)

Hamlet said:


> I hope it's not that but I'll make sure to examine the crown.



I would rather act than hope!
I think the rot is a secondary damage. Usually you can't see the Oribatids (Moosmilben) or Tarsonemids (Weichhautmilben) if they are hiding deep in the crown. Their size is only 0,3mm!


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## Erythrone (Jan 13, 2015)

fibre said:


> I would rather act than hope!
> I think the rot is a secondary damage. Usually you can't see the Oribatids (Moosmilben) or Tarsonemids (Weichhautmilben) if they are hiding deep in the crown. Their size is only 0,3mm!



I tried to find those small mites in my Phrags. I use 30 x lens. Never saw anything. Since the plants always recovered, I was thinking my problem was a cultural one.

My question: Are Phrags and Paphs proned to Tarsonmids or other tiny mites? Many orchids are, but what about slippers ? I detected tiny mites on Masdies, Coelogyne and intergeneric Oncidiums. But never on slippers.


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## Hamlet (Jan 13, 2015)

I repotted the plant. The roots look like this:







Two roots were dead, the ones you see on the photo were all still hard and seemed ok to my (inexperienced) eye. There is no smell on the roots or the plant.



fibre said:


> I would rather act than hope!
> I think the rot is a secondary damage. Usually you can't see the Oribatids (Moosmilben) or Tarsonemids (Weichhautmilben) if they are hiding deep in the crown. Their size is only 0,3mm!





Erythrone said:


> I tried to find those small mites in my Phrags. I use 30 x lens. Never saw anything. Since the plants always recovered, I was thinking my problem was a cultural one.
> 
> My question: Are Phrags and Paphs proned to Tarsonmids or other tiny mites? Many orchids are, but what about slippers ? I detected tiny mites on Masdies, Coelogyne and intergeneric Oncidiums. But never on slippers.



Yeah, that's my problem too, I would have no idea how to spot those tiny things. Let's assume the schlimii had Tarsonemids, would they also affect nearby plants? I have two other Phrags making new growths standing right next to the schlimii and neither has those spots.


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## SlipperFan (Jan 14, 2015)

Erythrone said:


> I tried to find those small mites in my Phrags. I use 30 x lens. Never saw anything. Since the plants always recovered, I was thinking my problem was a cultural one.
> 
> My question: Are Phrags and Paphs proned to Tarsonmids or other tiny mites? Many orchids are, but what about slippers ? I detected tiny mites on Masdies, Coelogyne and intergeneric Oncidiums. But never on slippers.



I've personally had spider mites on my Paphs, but I've never seen them on my Phrags.

Hamlet, it looks like your plant might have, or had, some kind of rot on it, down close to the roots.


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## abax (Jan 14, 2015)

I had this problem with one Phrag. that I air layered and
it was on the new growth just like the photo. I drenched
a couple of times with Cleary's 3336 and the damage
stopped completely. I also cut away the damaged parts 
of the leaves. No new growth has shown this kind of
damage since the drenching. Whether it's the same problem? Maybe so, maybe no.


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## The Mutant (Jan 15, 2015)

Could it be Anthracnose: Orchid diseases? Scroll down till the 'Orchid Leaf and Flower Spotting Fungi', it's the first subject in this section.


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## Hamlet (Jan 15, 2015)

Thank you all for your suggestions.

I repotted the plant, removed dead roots, cut off the affected leaves and switched to less feeding. If the spots come again, I'll try some fungicide.



The Mutant said:


> Could it be Anthracnose: Orchid diseases? Scroll down till the 'Orchid Leaf and Flower Spotting Fungi', it's the first subject in this section.



That looks like it starts at the tip and then spreads downwards though, my plant has blotches and the tips are not affected. Looks quite different.


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## gonewild (Jan 15, 2015)

27 posts with talk about possible to much feeding (fertilizer).
No one has asked what you fertilize with or how much you use.
So number one question is what is in your fertilizer?


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## Hamlet (Jan 15, 2015)

gonewild said:


> 27 posts with talk about possible to much feeding (fertilizer).
> No one has asked what you fertilize with or how much you use.
> So number one question is what is in your fertilizer?



I fertilize with NPK 14-7-8 or NPK 20-5-10 standard fertilizer, 80-100μS (RO water is about 10μS before adding fertilizer). One of the fertilizers has 2% Magnesium added.


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## NYEric (Jan 15, 2015)

Mites usually don't survive on plants that are watered a lot like Phrags.


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## gonewild (Jan 15, 2015)

Hamlet said:


> I fertilize with NPK 14-7-8 or NPK 20-5-10 standard fertilizer, 80-100μS (RO water is about 10μS before adding fertilizer). One of the fertilizers has 2% Magnesium added.



The amount of fertilizer you are applying is not too strong.

This is one of the types of disease symptoms that seems to just happen to certain plants for no reason. It is an example of what I believe may be a reaction to elevated potassium levels. Not saying it is, just that it is a possibility. Your fertilizer does contain a fairly high ratio of K.
After I started using less potassium on Phrags I no longer saw plants with this symptom.


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