# Paph Villosum



## lanthier (Nov 25, 2020)

So one of the first Paphs I owned was Paph Villosum, which I promptly killed after the bloom finished. I was excited to see this nice plant at a local seller. This Paph Villosum v annamense 'Chuck's Warrior' AM/AOS x self.


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## Herbert (Nov 25, 2020)

Looks very close to var. laichauense.


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## lanthier (Nov 25, 2020)

Herbert said:


> Looks very close to var. laichauense.


Very interesting! For each of these Villosum variants, I see several different images! Hard to sort them out.....


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## GuRu (Nov 26, 2020)

Herbert said:


> Looks very close to var. laichauense.



I agree, maybe the tag of the plant and the award are from times when var. laichauense wasn't described yet. As far as I know it was described in 2018.


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## Guldal (Nov 26, 2020)

Nice flowers - and well grown plant!

I suspect, it might be a misnaming, stemming from the otherwise most estimable Sam - and if not originally from him, he has furthered it in some of his crosses.

It is without doubt var. laichaunum. Rudolf (GuRu) fyi: I once had to eat humble pie, when I - a bit haughtily, I fear - corrected someone on the varietal name, insisting on v. laichauense, and they pulled the article with the description! 

I've attached this article from 'Die Orchidee', the magazine of the German Orchid Society. It has an abstract in English and the description is likewise translated - and it has some very clear photos of other forms of villosum. You will here notice the white dorsal ground colour of var. annamense.


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## Phred (Nov 26, 2020)

Definitely looks like var laichaunum to me. I've bloomed 7 siblings with two more in bud and they are all... basically identical to the description. Yours looks the same.


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## Phred (Nov 26, 2020)

Herbert said:


> Looks very close to var. laichauense.


I believe 'Chucks Warrior' was awarded with no varietal reference but 'Chucks Warrior' is villosum var. laichaunum... definitely not var. annamense.


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## BrucherT (Nov 26, 2020)

lanthier said:


> So one of the first Paphs I owned was Paph Villosum, which I promptly killed after the bloom finished. I was excited to see this nice plant at a local seller. This Paph Villosum v annamense 'Chuck's Warrior' AM/AOS x self.


Wonderful flowers. The mistake of calling it annamense I have now seen in multiple Facebook groups from Australia to South America to Taiwan and beyond (obviously here in the U.S.). Plants from this breeding must’ve been really widespread or else someone relied on Acker’s listing as a source? Interesting. Orchid Inn currently has plants called annamense with a laichaunum flower.


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## lanthier (Nov 27, 2020)

BrucherT said:


> Wonderful flowers. The mistake of calling it annamense I have now seen in multiple Facebook groups from Australia to South America to Taiwan and beyond (obviously here in the U.S.). Plants from this breeding must’ve been really widespread or else someone relied on Acker’s listing as a source? Interesting. Orchid Inn currently has plants called annamense with a laichaunum flower.



Fantastic! I love this kind of discussion as I am not a taxonomist. I know the plant is fantastic, and the tag is hand-written...... So, Always willing to learn. So to summarize, my Villosum appears to be:

Paph Villosum var laichaunum 'Chuck's Warrior" AM/AOS

Is that it???? ! Cheers all, I really do appreciate the discussion....


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## Phred (Nov 27, 2020)

lanthier said:


> Fantastic! I love this kind of discussion as I am not a taxonomist. I know the plant is fantastic, and the tag is hand-written...... So, Always willing to learn. So to summarize, my Villosum appears to be:
> 
> Paph Villosum var laichaunum 'Chuck's Warrior" AM/AOS
> 
> Is that it???? ! Cheers all, I really do appreciate the discussion....


Not quite... unless you have a piece of the awarded 'Chucks Warrior' it would be Paph villosum var laichaunum (villosum 'Chucks Warrior' x self). 
AOS hasn't changed the 'Chucks Warrior' award to reflect the variety name laichaunum but only because no one has asked.


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## Hakone (Nov 27, 2020)

lanthier said:


> So one of the first Paphs I owned was Paph Villosum, which I promptly killed after the bloom finished. I was excited to see this nice plant at a local seller. This Paph Villosum v annamense 'Chuck's Warrior' AM/AOS x self.


from Sam Tsui ?


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## Hakone (Nov 27, 2020)

paphiopedilum villosum var. annamense ( laichaunum ) , Sam Tsui


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## Phred (Nov 27, 2020)

Hakone said:


> paphiopedilum villosum var. annamense ( laichaunum ) , Sam Tsui
> View attachment 23499


This is not var annamense... its var laichaunum. Many orchid growers have ('Chucks Warrior' x self) for sale and most are still labeling them as var annamense. I bought several of mine from Jerry Fische and all were labeled Paph villosum var annamense 'Chucks Warrior' x self. Same with the ones I got from Dave Sorokowski. All 'ChucksWarrio' x self... no matter where they come from are villosum var laichaunum.


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## Hakone (Nov 27, 2020)

Here are 2 villosum, which is laichaunum , which is annamnense.


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## Phred (Nov 27, 2020)

Hakone said:


> Here are 2 villosum, which is laichaunum , which is annamnense.
> View attachment 23501
> View attachment 23502


Neither... both look like var. laichaunum. See the Paphiopedilum edition of the Orchid Digest. Great photos of villosum var. annamense. Paphiopedilum villosum var annamense has a burgundy type color dorsal with a white edge while var. laichaunum has a yellow dorsal over laid with a chestnut... no white edge. Interestingly I did a quick internet search for photos of var. annamense and most photos are var. laichaunum. The RHS facebook page even has a photo of one of my awarded paphiopedilum villosum var. laichaunum and has it misslabeled paphiopedilum villosum var. annamense.


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## Hakone (Nov 27, 2020)

Lai Châu (About this soundlisten) is a province in the Northwest region of Vietnam. Lai Châu Province is the most sparsely populated in Vietnam, and it shares a border with China. Sìn Hồ is a rural district of Lai Châu Province in the Northwest region of Vietnam. There are various ethnic minorities of people such as the Mong and Dao.

Paphiopedilum villosum (LindL.) Stein var. laichaunum Hai et tuan var. nov. 

Diagnose: The new variety is similar to the typical variety of Paphiopedilum villosum (LINDL.) STEIN, Stein's Orchideenbuch: 490, 1892, but distinctly differs from all known infraspeciﬁ c taxa of Paph. villosum by the shorter and narrower leaves, the circular, pointed dorsal sepalum, with wavy base, 
without spots and a dark brown centre fading to the tip, by a large and broad synsepalum that is larger than the lip. Type: Northern Vietnam, Lai Châu province, Sìn Hô district; coll. Nguyen Hoang Tuan and Nguyen Son Hai 2014; ex cult. 15-September-2015 (Holotype HNu/N. H. Tuan 014)

Below are all the villosum from Sinh Ho :


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## Guldal (Nov 27, 2020)

Check out the attachment to my post #5 - even if most of the article is in German, you will see very good and clearly defined photos of different varieties and colour forms of villosum, categorized by well estimed botanists!


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## lanthier (Nov 28, 2020)

Thank you all for the information on the ID. I love knowing the true identity of the plant, and will make up an appropriate label.


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## lanthier (Nov 28, 2020)

Guldal said:


> Check out the attachment to my post #5 - even if most of the article is in German, you will see very good and clearly defined photos of different varieties and colour forms of villosum, categorized by well estimed botanists!



Thank you so much, very helpful!


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## Hakone (Nov 28, 2020)

Guldal said:


> Check out the attachment to my post #5 - even if most of the article is in German, you will see very good and clearly defined photos of different varieties and colour forms of villosum, categorized by well estimed botanists!


the article is in German ? I've read it 20 x


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## BrucherT (Nov 28, 2020)

Herbert said:


> Looks very close to var. laichauense.


*laichaunum. Not pretending I’m an esteemed botanist but I’ve paid attention in here and read the paper.


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## BrucherT (Nov 28, 2020)

Guldal said:


> Check out the attachment to my post #5 - even if most of the article is in German, you will see very good and clearly defined photos of different varieties and colour forms of villosum, categorized by well estimed botanists!


Now who’s going to tell Sam?


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## BrucherT (Nov 28, 2020)

everybody here is getting the name, right?
laichaunum, not laichaunense. It confuses me too.


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## DrLeslieEe (Nov 28, 2020)

BrucherT said:


> Now who’s going to tell Sam?


I nominate you!


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## Guldal (Nov 28, 2020)

BrucherT said:


> everybody here is getting the name, right?
> laichaunum, not laichaunense. It confuses me too.


I think the confusion stems from the fact, that plants are sometimes sold under the name var. laichauense. Lai châu is a vietnamese province - and people might have thought, that the name ought to parralel the name for the Paph. coming from the county Malipo in China, namely P. malipoense.
Maybe the difference is due to the one plant coming from Vietnam, the other from China - i.e. based on the two different languages of the country of origin? Maybe it's because the one comes from a province, the other from a county? Or maybe it simply became var. laichaunum, because that was what the botanists, that described and validly published it, decided to call it?!


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## Hakone (Nov 30, 2020)

to me laichaunum = annamense


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## Hakone (Nov 30, 2020)

Guldal said:


> Check out the attachment to my post #5 - even if most of the article is in German, you will see very good and clearly defined photos of different varieties and colour forms of villosum, categorized by well estimed botanists!


unfortunately the botanists haven't seen all of the varieties. Were they in Lai Chau?

Lai Chau , paphis sell


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## Hakone (Nov 30, 2020)

Villosum , onwer : Lucky Pham


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## BrucherT (Dec 1, 2020)

DrLeslieEe said:


> I nominate you!


I’m shy!


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## BrucherT (Dec 1, 2020)

Hakone said:


> to me laichaunum = annamense


That’s interesting, because they are clearly very visibly different.


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## Guldal (Dec 1, 2020)

Hakone said:


> to me laichaunum = annamense


I have just for once broken my vow to ignore Hakone's posts, in spite of his often beautiful and interesting photos.
His posts in this thread is an example of the often rather indecirapherable comments, that made me take my 'vow of silence'. The above quote raises some questions: why is v. laichaunum for him identical with v. annamense? And has he bothered at all to open the article in #5? If so, why does he disagree with the botanists?

Another of his comments might point in the direction, that he didn't open it, as he pours forth:


Hakone said:


> unfortunately the botanists haven't seen all of the varieties. Were they in Lai Chau[?]


I would say, that there is a fair chance they were there - 3 of the 4 co-authors have, I would say, suspiciously, vietnamese sounding names: Nguyen Hoang Tuan, Nguyen Son Hai and Chu Xuan Canh (known in these pages for his fabulous onsite photos and his own, excellently cultivated plants). 2 of them resides in Hanoi, and 1 in Viet Tri city in the Phu Tho province, according to the article's colophon.


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## Hakone (Dec 1, 2020)

My answer : 

1/- And has he bothered at all to open the article in #5? If so, why does he disagree with the botanists?: 

- The botanists weren't there ( Laichen / Sinh Ho )

2/- I would say, suspiciously, vietnamese sounding names: Nguyen Hoang Tuan, Nguyen Son Hai and Chu Xuan Canh (known in these pages for his fabulous onsite photos and his own, excellently cultivated plants). 2 of them resides in Hanoi, and 1 in Viet Tri city in the Phu Tho province, according to the article's colophon.

- I know these 3 people. What do you mean by that ?

3/-Check out the attachment to my post #5 - even if most of the article is in German, you will see very good and clearly defined photos of different varieties and colour forms of villosum, categorized by well estimed botanists! 

- I've read this article and don't see any differences .. If you see the differences Annamense vs Laichaunum please show me.


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## Phred (Dec 1, 2020)

Hakone said:


> 3/-Check out the attachment to my post #5 - even if most of the article is in German, you will see very good and clearly defined photos of different varieties and colour forms of villosum, categorized by well estimed botanists!
> 
> - I've read this article and don't see any differences .. If you see the differences Annamense vs Laichaunum please show me.


You refer to the article in your above post at #5. You talk about “The clearly defined photos of different varieties and color forms of villosum, categorized by well esteemed botanists”. 
If I’m not understanding you correctly let me know... you say you don’t see the difference between villosum var anamense and villosum var laichaunum. The “clearly defined photos of different varieties and color forms” show a distinct different in the dorsal between the two.
*First: villosum var anamense *


*Second: villosum var laichaunum *


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## Phred (Dec 1, 2020)

If my translator is correct there are also differences between the two varieties in the written descriptions:

*anamense dorsal sepal:*
obovate broadly ovate to ovoid, white with a broad chestnut-brown central part
*laichaunum dorsal sepal:*
round, pointed at the top, notched at the bottom, no points, stalks, middle part of brown wings, faded upwards, veins brown and wider, in the middle

*anamense petal:*
obovate, spatula-shaped, brownish gold at the narrow point, lavender-brown markings at the base, narrow in the middle
*laichaunum petal:*
narrow spatulate, lavender in the upper half, lemon yellow in the lower part, without a white border


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## Phred (Dec 1, 2020)

BrucherT said:


> Now who’s going to tell Sam?


I’ll tell Sam... lol. I told Jason Fischer a couple years ago. I haven’t checked to see if he changed it in his system or not. I would think you could get a better price for a newly identified variety... at least initially.


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## Guldal (Dec 1, 2020)

Phred said:


> If my translator is correct there are also differences between the two varieties in the written descriptions:
> 
> *anamense dorsal sepal:*
> obovate broadly ovate to ovoid, white with a broad chestnut-brown central part
> ...


Exactly!


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## Hakone (Dec 2, 2020)

Phred said:


> You refer to the article in your above post at #5. You talk about “The clearly defined photos of different varieties and color forms of villosum, categorized by well esteemed botanists”.
> If I’m not understanding you correctly let me know... you say you don’t see the difference between villosum var anamense and villosum var laichaunum. The “clearly defined photos of different varieties and color forms” show a distinct different in the dorsal between the two.
> *First: villosum var anamense *
> View attachment 23601
> ...




The “clearly defined photos of different varieties and color forms” show a distinct different in the dorsal between the two. 

My answer : 

the color forms and the dorsal petal does not play an important role . The Staminode plays a big role. A number of variants of Villosum have been described. All of them differ only slightly from the " normals " forms. See # 14 and # 16 all these paphis are villosum in Lai Chau . It also depends on when the photos are taken, fully flowered or just open.


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## Phred (Dec 2, 2020)

Hakone said:


> The “clearly defined photos of different varieties and color forms” show a distinct different in the dorsal between the two.
> 
> My answer :
> 
> the color forms and the dorsal petal does not play an important role . The Staminode plays a big role. A number of variants of Villosum have been described. All of them differ only slightly from the " normals " forms. See # 14 and # 16 all these paphis are villosum in Lai Chau . It also depends on when the photos are taken, fully flowered or just open.


The shape of the dorsal is different not just the color. The shape of the petals are different. Also if the staminode is much different you're heading in the direction of a different species.


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## GuRu (Dec 2, 2020)

Hakone said:


> unfortunately the botanists haven't seen all of the varieties. Were they in Lai Chau?.....
> 
> 
> Hakone said:
> ...



Tai, I follow this discussion with great attention and I know you are of Vietnamese ancestry, but I also know, you've been living for many years here in Germany. So my question is: Did you ever visit Lai Châu before and did you see all these P. villosum varieties there in situ? Or do you discuss here only by 'hearsay'?



Phred said:


> The shape of the dorsal is different not just the color. The shape of the petals are different. Also if the staminode is much different you're heading in the direction of a different species.



Fred, that's completely logical.


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## Hakone (Dec 2, 2020)

every year i was in Vietnam on an expedition. There are many forums where people sell their Paphis. You can see so many varieties. 

exemplar:

Paphiopedilum Forum Sinh Ho - Lai Chau 






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Paphiopedilum Forum ( Süd - Zentral - Nord Viet Nam )






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Paphiopedilum Forum Da Lat






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total 10 Forens


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## GuRu (Dec 3, 2020)

Tai, I know that you traveled very often to your home country and furthermore you traveled all around the world, because I read some of your blogs. You linked some of them in Berthold's forum. But my question was: Did you visit Lai Châu ?
I think all those estimated botanist can also read in these forums so all these varieties won't be new to them, or am I wrong?


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## Hakone (Dec 3, 2020)

Did you visit Lai Châu ?
Answer : Yes 
I think all those estimated botanist can also read in these forums so all these varieties won't be new to them, or am I wrong?
Answer : I can't tell if all those estimated botanist read these Forums or not. But I'm sure they weren't in Lai Chau


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## Hakone (Dec 6, 2020)

the botanist were already here ?


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## Hakone (Dec 6, 2020)

Villosum ?


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## GuRu (Dec 7, 2020)

Hakone said:


> the botanist were already here ?.....



Tai, I watched this video with great interest and I have the impression by the rustling of the leaf litter that it was quite dry there when this guy took the video.


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