# Paph sanderianum seedling died



## orchideya (May 22, 2012)

It was potted into opaque plastic pot with bark. I am not good with bark for anything, just can't say when this stupid thing needs to be watered. It seems that first I rotted some roots and then dried out all the rest.
:sob:
Now I have a big urge to move St.Swithin and Lady Isabel out of bark and the only thing that stops me - they are in clear pots, so I water when there is no condensation on the pot walls.
Do you have any other hints on how to water paphs in the clear plastic pots with bark. Their roots are always brown, the skewer seems to be always moist


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## Paphman910 (May 22, 2012)

What mix do you use for your Paphs? And what size of bark are you using? What size pot you are using? I would uses fine bark, sphagnum, perlite, and charcoal for pots under 4 inches.

What conditions do you have? Temperature, humidity and light for day and night?

Paphman910


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## The Mutant (May 22, 2012)

I'm so sorry to hear that. 

Since I'm a Paph-newbie myself, I can't really help you, but all of my Paphs are planted in a bark/sphagnum/perlite mix and since I also have a problem with judging if they want to have water or not, I use the skewer method and so far so good.

I only water when the skewer feels cold to the touch but isn't feeling moist anymore (there's usually condensation on the inside of the pots when the skewer feels like this, so the condensation trick doesn't work for me). I think most of my Paphs dry out too slow compared to others and I believe this is because of too fine graded bark and not enough airflow around the roots, so I'm vary when it comes to watering when the skewers are still moist.


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## orchideya (May 22, 2012)

humidity 60 -70%
temps through winter around 20 C with sun pushing it up to 23-25 on bright days.
temps now climbed up to 24-25 C and we usually keep it there with a/c through the summer.
Here is what St Swithin and Lady Isabel are potted in - bark, charcoal and perlite:






See that condensation in the pot? I usually water when it desappears. Am I underwatering?






Thanks a lot.


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## The Mutant (May 22, 2012)

You probably underwater them. The condensation method works fine on Phals, but not on Paphs I've learned. I stick to my skewers and disregards the condensation completely, this after being educated from knowledgeable people on OB about Paphs and their watering needs.
BUT I can't claim to have any experience to lean back upon, since I've only had Paphs for about two months, but I've managed not to kill any of them...yet...


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## orchideya (May 22, 2012)

Thank you The_Mutant.
I guess I am still thinking phals and too paranoyed about root rot. I will try to increase the watering and get my skewer again.
It is so much easier with moss...


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## The Mutant (May 22, 2012)

You're very welcome and I'm glad if I can help another newbie going through exactly what I've been through when it comes to watering these darn orchids. 

I also saw that you've gotten some very good advice on OB as well in regards to the skewers being moist all the time. I think I should adopt the advice about putting the skewer in 1/2 an hour before watering, too.


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## Mocchaccino (May 22, 2012)

Based on what you said and the photo given, I don't see any terrible things you have done to the Paphs. Watering is always the most difficult thing. 

I got similar mixes as you do. Humidity of my place also varies between 50 - 70%. I water them once every 4 days in summer with temperatures ranging from 22 - 28 degrees, and once every week in winter when temperatures drop to 14 - 16 degrees. This has been a year and most of them are in good condition. Personally I would prefer under-watering than over if I could not judge when to water. Rotting the roots is much harder to recover the plant. 

Don't be worry if you lose a a plant. I believe they would suffer from disease too, especially you mentioned it is a seedling. I lost two Paphs before, both got rot from the crown. Perhaps you can do more preventive measures such as giving regular fungicides.


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## Paphman910 (May 22, 2012)

Your plants look fine! Mutant and others gave you good tips on growing Paphs. When weather warms up you may have to water every 2-3 days to keep medium moist! A friend of my eggshells boils the bark for 10 minutes to make the bark more moisture absorbant.

BTW your Paph sanderinaum seedling was probably not healthy to begin with so it didn't grow! Your temperature conditions suit your growing needs for a Paph sanderianum.

Paphman910


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## orchideya (May 22, 2012)

Thank you guys.
Paphman, I had it since end of march and it arrived pretty healthy looking. There wasn't too many roots, but I manged to kill them all. Now i am afraid to do the same with my BS hybrids that are still alive. Although, their roots systems were very good and it might take longer to kill.
As far as I understood you, I should water more often even though the medium hasn't dried out completely yet, right? Keep it moist bit not standing in the puddle, is that the idea?
Thanks again.


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## Gilda (May 22, 2012)

Great roots on your St Swithin X and healthy looking plant ! In their growth mode, new root tips/ new growths emerging...I think paphs can use more water. Longer days ..brighter light etc. 
In the winter you would need to cut back on watering when the paph isn't using much for growing roots and growths. 
Try a bigger seedling next time....bigger seedlings are easier to grow in my opinon. Worth the extra money


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## jtrmd (May 22, 2012)

I grow everything that isn't mounted in a bark mix.The Paphs might get watered up to 3x a week in the summer,depending on the temps,weather,and everything else out in the GH.


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## Paphman910 (May 22, 2012)

orchideya said:


> Thank you guys.
> Paphman, I had it since end of march and it arrived pretty healthy looking. There wasn't too many roots, but I manged to kill them all. Now i am afraid to do the same with my BS hybrids that are still alive. Although, their roots systems were very good and it might take longer to kill.
> As far as I understood you, I should water more often even though the medium hasn't dried out completely yet, right? Keep it moist bit not standing in the puddle, is that the idea?
> Thanks again.



Situation sound similair to my friend who bought a plant with healthy looking leaves and there wasn't many roots!

Paphs in general like to stay moist. I find bark drys really quickly so I use moss to retain moisture and water it 2 times a week in the summer or more if the top 1.5 inch of the medium is dry!

Don't let it stand it a puddle of water!

Paphman910


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## gonewild (May 22, 2012)

orchideya said:


> I am not good with bark for anything,



Then don't use bark if your not good with it!

Use a mix that is better suited to the care you provide.
If you think you over water then use a media that drains better and does not absorb water.


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## gonewild (May 22, 2012)

orchideya said:


> I had it since end of march and it arrived pretty healthy looking. There wasn't too many roots, but I manged to kill them all.



I doubt you destroyed all the roots in a month and a half. The roots were probably already declining when you got the plant.


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## nikv (May 22, 2012)

You could always pick up the pot and feel it's weight. If it seems light to you, then water it. If it feels heavy, then don't water.


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## orchideya (May 22, 2012)

Thank you for the advices, everybody. 
Gonewild, I am really good with sphagnum moss, but it probably wouldn't work with paphs. My parvis are in straight chc and are fine (more or less, there was some roots damage at the beginning, but now I figured it out)).
I use the weight trick with my phals that are in sphag and plastic pots, it could work for bark too, I guess.

The plant did have decent roots and I bought it from reputable seller. I think it is all my fault. Here are some pics I took when repotted on arrival:










I am not buying anymore multies until I figure out watering for my two hybrids that are still healthy.


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## cnycharles (May 22, 2012)

in all the pictures you've taken that show media, it just looks to me like it's been soaking wet for a while... bark gets a certain look when it hasn't been allowed to dry out at all. also I was beaten to 'weigh the pot'; which is excellent advice. water is the heaviest ingredient in that pot, and if you trust your judgement on how heavy/light a pot gets when water changes you won't even have to look inside.

one thing that I think is very important, after looking at your last pics, is that it looks like your pot is too big for the roots. there is a lot of media, and it will take a long time for it to dry out. i have had many phals and others of course go backwards when I moved a plant from a 3 or 4 inch pot to a 5 or bigger, because there simply was too much media to dry out and everything rotted. get a pot that is just a hair bigger than the roots, put some media in and around the roots and it will dry out more reliably and your roots should be happier. if you want to water more, then put a lot more chunky media in the pot like sponge rock. looking at the roots again, to me they look like they haven't seen enough air for a while; getting good roots on any plant is a fine balance between air and moisture. where in nature it seems like a plant is standing in water or has it dripping/running over the roots much of the time, it's important to know that the moving water has a lot of air dissolved in it; standing water often has very little or at least much less air in it, and this can lead to 'soggy' media, which means much water but no air


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## goldenrose (May 24, 2012)

nikv said:


> You could always pick up the pot and feel it's weight. If it seems light to you, then water it. If it feels heavy, then don't water.


Thank You Nik! Couldn't agree with you more! I certainly don't have consistent temps, etc to be able to say _I water the plant every 4 days_, reality is water when it needs it. I don't think clear or translucent pots are always a good idea. Does sunlight hit the pot? heating up the roots? In nature, wouldn't the roots be cooler & shaded?


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## Ozpaph (May 24, 2012)

Your last photo suggests to me the mix is a bit fine, perhaps over potted and over watered. 
Even where I live in the subtropics I only water 2X/week in summer and 1-2X in winter. I think you should aim for damp mix, not wet.
I use some clear pots and like the condensation. I suspect its too dry if all the condensation has gone.


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## Mocchaccino (May 24, 2012)

goldenrose said:


> Thank You Nik! Couldn't agree with you more! I certainly don't have consistent temps, etc to be able to say _I water the plant every 4 days_, reality is water when it needs it. I don't think clear or translucent pots are always a good idea. Does sunlight hit the pot? heating up the roots? In nature, wouldn't the roots be cooler & shaded?



Smart that you realize the principle of watering. You can do this_ ideally_ when you own just a few slippers. 

Consider this way of watering when you are owning a few hundreds. I wont have the time to lift all pots up to feel the weight, and certainly I wont remember the weight of each pot. 

As a start with a few paphs, considering the weight is perhaps the best way for beginners to learn when to water. That is to supply when they are in need. But when your collection gets larger, you may have to develop a more systematic watering schedule.

To know whether the roots are cooler and shaded, you have to understand each species. Most slippers are lithophytic and just some of them are epiphytic. For some, their roots grow into humus. Then the roots would likely to be cooler, moist and shaded. For some like charlesworthii, their roots cling to limestone rocks and would likely to be exposed. In this case their roots wont be cool and shaded.


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## orchideya (May 24, 2012)

Thank you everyone for your input.
The last two pictures were from the time I unpotted sandie on arrival. There was some root rot, so some pieces just came off, and the mix looked too fine to me, and pot was a tad large. At that point I moved it into fresh chunkier shultz mix in a smaller pot. But I think I was waiting for it to dry out too much before watering again. So, when the leaves started to wilt, I unpotted it again - all the remaining roots were decomposed and dried out. That's the story. 
I will try to keep my two hybrids a bit damp between waterings. Good thing their roots were much better on arrival and they are mature plants. Now they look ok, and roots still show those whitish growing tips.
Hope I'll get it right.


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## Paphman910 (May 24, 2012)

orchideya said:


> Thank you everyone for your input.
> The last two pictures were from the time I unpotted sandie on arrival. There was some root rot, so some pieces just came off, and the mix looked too fine to me, and pot was a tad large. At that point I moved it into fresh chunkier shultz mix in a smaller pot. But I think I was waiting for it to dry out too much before watering again. So, when the leaves started to wilt, I unpotted it again - all the remaining roots were decomposed and dried out. That's the story.
> I will try to keep my two hybrids a bit damp between waterings. Good thing their roots were much better on arrival and they are mature plants. Now they look ok, and roots still show those whitish growing tips.
> Hope I'll get it right.



The shultz orchid mix is really bad as it holds a lot of water and I found it to contains a lot of fine peat moss in it. It becomes quite muddy and can suffocate the roots.

Paphman910


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## eggshells (May 24, 2012)

Paphman910 said:


> The shultz orchid mix is really bad as it holds a lot of water and I found it to contains a lot of fine peat moss in it. It becomes quite muddy and can suffocate the roots.
> 
> Paphman910



I hate that product. The picture in front of the bag is nothing like that product inside. Broken down bark with stones and fine charcoal. Not to mention fungus gnats eggs and larvae.


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## eggshells (May 24, 2012)

To Orchideya. You should use the size of the roots as a reference and not the leaves. Unless you are growing on netpots those dry really quickly because air is through and through.


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## goldenrose (May 24, 2012)

Mocchaccino said:


> Smart that you realize the principle of watering. You can do this_ ideally_ when you own just a few slippers.
> 
> Consider this way of watering when you are owning a few hundreds. I wont have the time to lift all pots up to feel the weight, and certainly I wont remember the weight of each pot.


Hmmm .....I do have a few hundreds. 
You don't have to remember, that's why you're picking the pot up, does it feel heavy? medium? light? Also group them by pot size, if a couple of them need watering, then more than likely they all do. It's not really that difficult nor time consuming.



Mocchaccino said:


> To know whether the roots are cooler and shaded, you have to understand each species. Most slippers are lithophytic and just some of them are epiphytic. For some, their roots grow into humus. Then the roots would likely to be cooler, moist and shaded. For some like charlesworthii, their roots cling to limestone rocks and would likely to be exposed. In this case their roots wont be cool and shaded.


Couldn't agree with you more but when I started having a problem with some of my multis, which were located on an upper shelf in the GH, they were in clear/translucent pots & double potting them made a big difference, I really feel their roots were getting baked & they didn't like that....
just offering suggestions.


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