# Looking for secret



## dodidoki (Jan 18, 2013)

I read few article about mycorrhizae fungi, they are mainly Tulanella spec., they live in dead plant parts and during biodegradation they made NO2, No3, So2 ,PO4 and HCO3 ions, mainly acidic.(ph 5,5-6)
Does anyone know specific mycorrhizea biochemicals for orchid? Other biochemicals are used for fruits and other flowers with very good result. 
I think many orchids die in GH because lost their Tulanellas. ( selenipediums, Solomon slippers)


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## gonewild (Jan 18, 2013)

A lot of orchid species are believed to have their own personal mycorrhizae.
No one has actually identified a positive proven general substitute.

Logic would be to collect mycorrhizae from the wild orchids plants in situ but of course it would never be allowed to legally transport the microbes.


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## keithrs (Jan 18, 2013)

There was a company in EU some where that was making myco for orchids. Not sure of the spp tho.

I'm looking to see if I can find it again...

.............

I still can't find the company.

But the quick research I did on the strain Tulanellas is part of the Rhizoctonia family which causes all kinds of problems. Not sure I would want that strain with my plants.


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## Ozpaph (Jan 18, 2013)

This is an interesting topic. I have a few questions if someone can educate me I'd be appreciative.
If mycorrhizae are important to plant survival how do the plants grow in a cultivated environment when deflasked? I have my deflasklings away from adult plants and in new mix. How do they grow and survive? When do the roots become colonised? In a mixed orchid collection are there different fungi for different genera?
Thanks


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## SlipperKing (Jan 18, 2013)

You provide through water and fertilzer what the fungus provide through biodegradation.


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## keithrs (Jan 18, 2013)

Ozpaph said:


> This is an interesting topic. I have a few questions if someone can educate me I'd be appreciative.
> If mycorrhizae are important to plant survival how do the plants grow in a cultivated environment when deflasked? I have my deflasklings away from adult plants and in new mix. How do they grow and survive? When do the roots become colonised? In a mixed orchid collection are there different fungi for different genera?
> Thanks



The orchid that you and I own are only dependent on fungi for seed propagation in the wild. They dont need them to survive just like a tomato doesnt fungi to survive. With at said There are others like the coral root orchids that depend on fungi to draw energy from near by trees. The coral root orchid has no leaves to produce energy. 

A very elementary way fungi works is that it sends out very small root like threads(mycellium) that gather nutrients and bring it back for the plant. In exchange the plants gives of sugar that it produces. 

Very few plants need fungi to survive but a huge benefit if you can supply it.


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## Stone (Jan 18, 2013)

Ozpaph said:


> This is an interesting topic. I have a few questions if someone can educate me I'd be appreciative.
> If mycorrhizae are important to plant survival how do the plants grow in a cultivated environment when deflasked? I have my deflasklings away from adult plants and in new mix. How do they grow and survive? When do the roots become colonised? In a mixed orchid collection are there different fungi for different genera?
> Thanks



You can pretty much bet that a lot of the orchids in your/our greenhouse are ''infected'' with myco as we speak. (many studies have found this) And a lot probably aren't. It doesn't seem to make much difference when they are being artificially fed. Also, to ensure that an orchid is inocculated and continues the relationship with the fungus, you almost have to grow them in lab conditions because its apparently so easy to tip the balance and kill the myco. I've also read that some orchids have only temporary associations and need to renew every year. And some can and do actually attack and kill their
host when they're feeling in the mood!
Unless you're trying to grow some of the crazy terrestrials, nearly all the cultvated orchids can be grown to perfection without worrying about mycos so should we bother? Maybe one day when/if the science is more solid it will help?
I do know that they are having very good results with some woody plants innoculated with several species of mycos and transplanted into the open ground. Survival rates for these were much higher than the controls! I guess if you are re-introducing orchids back into the habitat, mycos would be vital.


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## keithrs (Jan 18, 2013)

I will say that I have use myco's on my orchids and see no difference in growth.


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## Ozpaph (Jan 18, 2013)

Thank-you. So Dodidokis quest for myoc seems pointless, then?


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## keithrs (Jan 18, 2013)

Ozpaph said:


> Thank-you. So Dodidokis quest for myoc seems pointless, then?



No not really... I do believe that cyp., Selenipedium and species like goodyera could benefit.


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## gonewild (Jan 18, 2013)

Ozpaph said:


> Thank-you. So Dodidokis quest for myoc seems pointless, then?



No it is never pointless to try to discover new methods or learn how to improve.
But the quest for mycorrhizae is not new and likely won't show any visible results.


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## Rick (Jan 19, 2013)

Ozpaph said:


> This is an interesting topic. I have a few questions if someone can educate me I'd be appreciative.
> If mycorrhizae are important to plant survival how do the plants grow in a cultivated environment when deflasked? I have my deflasklings away from adult plants and in new mix. How do they grow and survive? When do the roots become colonised? In a mixed orchid collection are there different fungi for different genera?
> Thanks



In the wild, the point of "infection" is at the germination stage of the orchid embryo. This is also the time the orchid has no roots or chlorophyll to obtain and make it's own nutrients. It is generally believed that by the time the seedlings make it out of flask with roots and chlorophyll in leaves that the fungi are not necessary.

The process of flasking (starting orchid embryos in a nutrient rich media) was a landmark development that generally bypassed the need to for symbiotic fungi. However, I have seen some articles of certain species germinating and growing better when fungus are added to a very weak media. (High strength media is generally detrimental for symbiotic fungi)


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## Rick (Jan 19, 2013)

dodidoki said:


> I read few article about mycorrhizae fungi, they are mainly Tulanella spec., they live in dead plant parts and during biodegradation they made NO2, No3, So2 ,PO4 and HCO3 ions, mainly acidic.(ph 5,5-6)



A lot of these same compounds are produced by bluegreen algae which are in common association with mosses. And both terrestrial and epiphytic orchid species are frequently found in association with mosses (as well as fungi).

Needless to say, the orchids have evolved to live in generally nutrient poor systems where they develop relationships with simpler organisms that are more proficient at developing fairly inert materials into usable nutrient building blocks.


We have often speculated that these associations supply unknown trace amounts of highly specialized (almost magical) nutrients that are requirements for the thriving orchid. But over the years I'm seeing less and less evidence of this.


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## Rick (Jan 19, 2013)

Sept 2012 edition of Orchids has an article on germinating an Epi species using gel beads of Epi seeds and Ceratobasidium fungi.

The food source is peat moss. The process doesn't require sterile conditions as in standard orchid flasking systems.

January 2013 issue of Orchids has an article on evolution of the symbiotic relationship of orchids with fungi.


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## dodidoki (Jan 19, 2013)

I opened this thread and discussion because of some problematic species, selenipediums, paph. wentworthianum, bougainvilleanum.
All of reports said that these plants died within a short time after digging out of their natural habitat. Other interesting point that arteficial reproduction of these species is impossible with our current knowledge.
I think, that these plants have chlorophyll for photosyntesis, indeed, however they are not independent from fungi, they got "something" from fungi what is essential to survive ( hormones maybe???)
Only one sel. aequinoctiale reported to bloom in GH, died soon after blooming. One palmifolium reported has bloomed in GH- only this one, what was digged out with a large soil ball. This one died after blooming, too.
I think bad fate of these plants begins with soaking their roots and desinfection against diseases with fungicides.
My first seleni arrived with bare roots, died within few weeks.
Second one has a little soil ball around roots, this one produced a nem growth, 80 cm tall, survived more than one year but nowadays is about to die. I think my efforts against rot killed its fungi.
If I will try again I think I will avoid seleni from any chemicals and will ask seller sending plant with bigger original soil ball.


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## Rick (Jan 19, 2013)

dodidoki said:


> I opened this thread and discussion because of some problematic species, selenipediums, paph. wentworthianum, bougainvilleanum.
> All of reports said that these plants died within a short time after digging out of their natural habitat. Other interesting point that arteficial reproduction of these species is impossible with our current knowledge.



I also have seen very little to no good results for selenipedium, but the others have been propagated artificially before, but wentworthianum and bougainvilleanum are very rare in culture today.

I have some seedlings from Ten Shin that are labeled P papuanum, but the foliage looks more like wentworthianum (or bougainvilleanum). They are doing very well for me. But I guess unless I get to see pics of the parents or these plants bloom, they could be hybrids.

It was also speculated that most Cypripedium could not survive without fungi or fungi facilitated flasking. But now many Cyps are propagated without such influence.


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## dodidoki (Jan 19, 2013)

Can you post me pics?

I have papuanum ( syn zieckianum), too. I had two ones before, all of them flowered and died. This third one is going very well, but I grow this one in sphagnum with living fern covered plus by a larger transparent pot. So humidity near plant is always around 90-95%. Plant seems to be happy this way.

Maybe you know, too, that almost all of wentworthianum sold by nurseries turned to be fake ones, mostly mastersianum or dayanum. I have one "wentworthianum", too, never bloomed but happy with 3 bs growths, I expect flower this year. I have no doubt that mine is fake, too. I look for closer pics from a real one for comparison but can't find.
If you interested, I can post pic about my zieck.


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## Rick (Jan 19, 2013)

dodidoki said:


> Can you post me pics?
> 
> I have papuanum ( syn zieckianum), too. I had two ones before, all of them flowered and died. This third one is going very well, but I grow this one in sphagnum with living fern covered plus by a larger transparent pot. So humidity near plant is always around 90-95%. Plant seems to be happy this way.
> 
> ...



http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26342

Here's some pics of Paphman's papuanum seedlings in compot. Mine are considerably bigger, but look very similar for the lack of patterning on the leaves. There is a good chance that mine are from the same source/parents. The catalog number for mine from Ten Shin was HS 1451, but if you go to the Ten Shin site, the Paphs are blocked on their e catalog and they purportedly get their paphs from Hung Sheng (the HS from the Ten Shin list?). Paphman was able to get pics of the parents for his and the pictures are definitely papuanum or wentworthianum flowers (no foliage in the pics to see).


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## dodidoki (Jan 19, 2013)

Yes, Wayne asked me for a pic of my zieck few weeks ago for comparison of his compot. I think it might be real zieck.


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## Rick (Jan 19, 2013)

dodidoki said:


> Maybe you know, too, that almost all of wentworthianum sold by nurseries turned to be fake ones, mostly mastersianum or dayanum.



I can believe mastersianum since that species the leaves are very similar to wentworthianum. Only weakly patterned thick and glossy. But dayanum has strongly patterned leaves that are not very glossy, more like hookerae or lawrencianum.

Mastersianum is also a fairly rare and difficult species. Since going low K and baskets they are doing very well for me. Under standard potted conditions they seemed slow, but after I checked pot TDS and found it high, I flush the pots regularly with very low TDS water, and now they grow very well.

I'm finding that the bloom and die syndrome is frequently tied to high potassium in the plant and/or the pot. 

Going to low K fert and watering by TDS measurements I am getting much more new growth before and after blooming, and not having plants wither and die.


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## Ozpaph (Jan 19, 2013)

Thank-you all for enlightening me.


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## Rick (Jan 19, 2013)

dodidoki said:


> Yes, Wayne asked me for a pic of my zieck few weeks ago for comparison of his compot. I think it might be real zieck.



OK, I found out that HS1451 is definitely on the Hung Sheng price list. But also separate from any of the ziekianum's listed.

HS has pics of the ziekianum "bear" flowers, but no pictures showing for any papuanum.

I emailed them so maybe something will come up.

I am also encouraged that the pics of parnatatum on his site look like the authentic species (since I got a few of those too).


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## dodidoki (Jan 19, 2013)

OK, I will buy TDS meter. Optimal ppm value for paphs?


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## Rick (Jan 19, 2013)

dodidoki said:


> OK, I will buy TDS meter. Optimal ppm value for paphs?



I don't think there is a universal optimal value, especially if you consider that different ions effect the conductivity differently.

So I just try to keep it much lower than my well water. Maybe try to shoot for way under 300 useimens/cm. The mastersianum are consistently below 200 us/cm. May need to check units on whatever you get.

I actually got a conductivity meter instead of TDS (total dissolved solids). Also the unit I got (Hanna 98331) has a soil probe that's real handy for working with pots/baskets.


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## dodidoki (Jan 19, 2013)

Thanks. Does EC mean electrical conductivity? I ordered EC/ TDS meter.


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## gonewild (Jan 19, 2013)

dodidoki said:


> Thanks. Does EC mean electrical conductivity? I ordered EC/ TDS meter.



Yes it does.


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## Stone (Jan 20, 2013)

Its worth noting too that different fertilizers supplying the same amount of a nutrient element can have different EC values.
(Sorry Rick I just noticed you did note that)

For example 100ppm of N from Calcium nitrate has an EC of 0.84 dS/m (840 uS/cm)
100ppm of N from Ammonium nitrate has an EC of 0.51 dS/m
100ppm of N from Ammonium sulphate has an EC of 0.96 dS/m

So you need to have a some idea of the particular compound and its effects before you can make a lot of sense from an EC reading.

Example: if your fertilizer has Ammonium nitrate as its N component, the same EC could give you close to double the N as it would if you were using Cal nitrate. 
If it has Urea, it WILL NOT register BUT plants will see it as any other salt. So you need to increase the measured EC by 1.5 dS/m (1.500 uS/cm) for every gram of Urea per Lt.

If your water has the slightest amount of NaCl, your plants could be on a starvation diet going by EC alone.


If you have pure water and you're happy with the fertilizer you use, then you're laughing


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## Stone (Jan 20, 2013)

Rick said:


> > Maybe try to shoot for way under 300 useimens/cm. The mastersianum are consistently below 200 us/cm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## valenzino (Jan 20, 2013)

All those species (appart from P.wenthworthianum,due to lack of plants for reproduction), have been succesfully reproduced.(including Cyp irapeanum etc)...And mostly all times they die due to wrong media/conditions...but some are really a challange...
In my opinion the problem linked to the dependency of the plant to the fungi,have to be seen under a different point of view,the michorizae protect the plants from other phatogens.So,when the protection is lost,those plants becames very sensitive to various infections.This can explain also why are difficult to deflask...cause they have a poor immunitary system.Can also someway explain why are also sensitive to systemical chemicals...
Maybe can be interesting try to grow them with standard horticoltural michorizae that protects against various pathogens...



dodidoki said:


> I opened this thread and discussion because of some problematic species, selenipediums, paph. wentworthianum, bougainvilleanum.
> All of reports said that these plants died within a short time after digging out of their natural habitat. Other interesting point that arteficial reproduction of these species is impossible with our current knowledge.
> I think, that these plants have chlorophyll for photosyntesis, indeed, however they are not independent from fungi, they got "something" from fungi what is essential to survive ( hormones maybe???)
> Only one sel. aequinoctiale reported to bloom in GH, died soon after blooming. One palmifolium reported has bloomed in GH- only this one, what was digged out with a large soil ball. This one died after blooming, too.
> ...


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## Ozpaph (Jan 20, 2013)

How do you test the tds/ppm of the mix without a soil probe?
Do you sit the pot in distilled water for a while then take the measurements?


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## eggshells (Jan 20, 2013)

Ozpaph said:


> How do you test the tds/ppm of the mix without a soil probe?
> Do you sit the pot in distilled water for a while then take the measurements?



If you are using a bark based mix. I dont think that a soil probe will work properly. It is best to run close to 0 ppm water through the pot and catch it in a basin. And then measure that.


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## terryros (Jan 20, 2013)

The method published by several authors is to water/feed a plant and then an hour or so later, pour about 50 ml RO water through the plant sitting in a saucer. The amount can vary a bit with the plant size, but you need enough effluent to come through to do the measurement. Pour the effluent from the saucer into a container and measure the ppm/EC.

As noted by other authors, TDS meters that produce a ppm reading are actually measuring EC and then converting to ppm. However, different meters can use different conversion factors. I purchased a calibration solution at a hydroponics store and found that my meter has EC = 2 X PPM as the conversion (using the mostly commonly used units being used by Stone and Rick in this chain).

For example, when I make a fertilizer solution with K-Lite in my RO water at a calculated 50 ppm N strength, I get a measured ppm of about 250 so the EC is about 0.5. When I do the pour through method on most plants, my effluent is usually around the same as my fertilizer solution, so about 0.5 and I begin to flush if it starts to get much higher than this (I grow in sphagnum moss).

Thus, to get to the levels that Rick is talking about I would need to be using much lower concentration of K-Lite than 50 ppm N.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD.


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## Rick (Jan 20, 2013)

Ozpaph said:


> How do you test the tds/ppm of the mix without a soil probe?
> Do you sit the pot in distilled water for a while then take the measurements?



The standard practice is to slowly pour some water through the pot and collect/test and then mutliply by two.

Paph mixes are very open, so I find that water travels through the pot so fast that it does not pull much salt out. So I think something like you are suggesting is just as legitimate as long as you standardize the process for yourself.

You want to minimize the dilution effect of the water being added. If you have a cup or other water holding container that is very close in size to the pot in question, then use that. Fill up the pot, let it sit for maybe up to an hour, drip out and test.

You could collect a time series (15 min, 30, 60, 90...) to see when you get max transfer. Just take good notes so you can repeat with other pots to get consensus on your method.


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## Rick (Jan 20, 2013)

terryros said:


> The method published by several authors is to water/feed a plant and then an hour or so later, pour about 50 ml RO water through the plant sitting in a saucer. The amount can vary a bit with the plant size, but you need enough effluent to come through to do the measurement. Pour the effluent from the saucer into a container and measure the ppm/EC.
> 
> As noted by other authors, TDS meters that produce a ppm reading are actually measuring EC and then converting to ppm. However, different meters can use different conversion factors. I purchased a calibration solution at a hydroponics store and found that my meter has EC = 2 X PPM as the conversion (using the mostly commonly used units being used by Stone and Rick in this chain).
> 
> ...



Yes 0.5X EC = TDS is a calibration for sodium or potassium chloride. As Stone noted, the EC of individual constituents is all over the board, and you are generally looking at an average of constituent EC's. In tap water (generally low in Na/K salts but high in Ca/Mg salts, the conversion is usually closer to TDSX1.8 = EC. 

The use of TDS/EC is really to track accumulations of salts in the mix, rather than target absolute values. As you noted, the EC of fert mix is pretty high compared to rain water or dilute tap water. So rather than looking at the EC of fertilizer influenced mix, you need to use potting mix with clean irrigation water as your baseline. Then you will get to see numbers in the lower range that I use as my target. 

If you see numbers in the 200+ TDS (400 EC) range after a pot flush and you haven't applied fert in a week, then typically your potting mix is holding a lot of left over food from the previous feedings.

If you compare this to aquarium management, this is comparable to adjusting the feeding rate of your fish so you don't have piles of rotting uneaten food sitting in the bottom of the tank.


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## Rick (Jan 20, 2013)

Stone said:


> Rick said:
> 
> 
> > I'm begining to think 300 (or 0.3 dS/m) might be too low. (At least for summer) Thats been about the EC of my fert solutions with basically feed - flush - feed etc. That equates to under 30ppm N (for my fert.)
> ...


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## Rick (Jan 20, 2013)

Stone said:


> Rick said:
> 
> 
> > I'm begining to think 300 (or 0.3 dS/m) might be too low. (At least for summer) Thats been about the EC of my fert solutions with basically feed - flush - feed etc. That equates to under 30ppm N (for my fert.)
> ...


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## Rick (Jan 20, 2013)

Stone said:


> Rick said:
> 
> 
> > If I look at the Dutch figures for optimum EC and ppm-N for Chrysanthemum or Gerbera grown in rockwoll. ( and both of these are deemed VERY senstive to salinity ) They give an EC (Gerbera) of 1.5 dS/m (1500 us/cm) and 158ppm NO3 + 21ppm NH4. But thats for constant moisture levels.
> ...


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## Stone (Jan 20, 2013)

Rick said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > > How can 1500us/cm be considered salt sensitive?
> ...


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## Stone (Jan 20, 2013)

Rick said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > > There was a fragment of insitu orchid data we can use. The kovachii field data. Soil EC was 400 us/cm. Water EC was 40 us/cm (I believe it said 20ppm).
> ...


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## Rick (Jan 20, 2013)

Stone said:


> Rick said:
> 
> 
> > Stone said:
> ...


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## Rick (Jan 20, 2013)

Stone said:


> Rick said:
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> 
> > Stone said:
> ...


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## Stone (Jan 20, 2013)

Rick said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > Rick said:
> ...


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## keithrs (Jan 21, 2013)

Dodidoki- You may want to find some Alaskan humus. Mix it in with rootshield and your potting mix. Than every two to three weeks make a tea out of it. This is the only way to get a very diverse mix of microbes and keep them at high levels. 

If you want to use the tea as a fertilizer then look into bountea products. I use them in the garden with great success. I highly recommend to stay away from "standard" fertilizers. They will kill the microbes in the soil.


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## Rick (Jan 21, 2013)

keithrs said:


> I highly recommend to stay away from "standard" fertilizers. They will kill the microbes in the soil.



That's part of the point about TDS monitoring and control


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## keithrs (Jan 21, 2013)

Rick said:


> That's part of the point about TDS monitoring and control



Yes sir...


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## Stone (Jan 21, 2013)

keithrs said:


> > I highly recommend to stay away from "standard" fertilizers. They will kill the microbes in the soil.
> 
> 
> 
> That statement is simply not true. Probably spread by the ''Organic'' people trying to sell their products. Don't believe it! The correct, non toxic, consentration of ANY fertilizer will actually INCREASE populations of soil flora. Actinomycites, bacteria and fungi all need the same nutrients as any other organism and they will use it wherever it comes from as long as there is sufficient carbon present.


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## keithrs (Jan 21, 2013)

Stone said:


> keithrs said:
> 
> 
> > That statement is simply not true. Probably spread by the ''Organic'' people trying to sell their products. Don't believe it! The correct, non toxic, consentration of ANY fertilizer will actually INCREASE populations of soil flora. Actinomycites, bacteria and fungi all need the same nutrients as any other organism and they will use it wherever it comes from as long as there is sufficient carbon present.
> ...


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## Rick (Jan 21, 2013)

Stone said:


> Rick said:
> 
> 
> > Stone said:
> ...


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## Ozpaph (Jan 21, 2013)

keithrs said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > Stone...You should do some research. There are lots of info on this topic.
> ...


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## Rick (Jan 21, 2013)

http://ufdcimages.uflib.ufl.edu/UF/E0/02/13/67/00001/stewart_s.pdf

This paper has a lot going for it from mychorizae, orchids, germination nutrients...

Ozpaph there's a lot in it about fungal germination of orchid seed to answer your previous questions.


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## keithrs (Jan 21, 2013)

Ozpaph said:


> keithrs said:
> 
> 
> > That article says nitrogen 'stimulates soil microbes'....
> ...


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## dodidoki (Jan 22, 2013)

Rick, you drive me crazy with ppm..... You wrote "50 ppm N". What do you mean?
Eg: if I use Ca(NO3)2 and solve it in water, how do you count ppm only to N?


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## dodidoki (Jan 22, 2013)

I only ask it because watching your plants your theory works, I only would like to understand.


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## keithrs (Jan 22, 2013)

dodidoki said:


> Rick, you drive me crazy with ppm..... You wrote "50 ppm N". What do you mean?
> Eg: if I use Ca(NO3)2 and solve it in water, how do you count ppm only to N?



PPM N stands for Parts Per Million of Nitrogen.


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## dodidoki (Jan 22, 2013)

keithrs said:


> PPM N stands for Parts Per Million of Nitrogen.



Solved N does not exist. Only ions or polarized molecules. ( eg. NO3-, urea, NH4+).
That is why I don't understand "ppm for N".
Eg.: 50 ppm N = 50 ppm NO3-???
or 50 ppm N = 50 ppm NH4+???


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## Rick (Jan 22, 2013)

dodidoki said:


> Solved N does not exist. Only ions or polarized molecules. ( eg. NO3-, urea, NH4+).
> That is why I don't understand "ppm for N".
> Eg.: 50 ppm N = 50 ppm NO3-???
> or 50 ppm N = 50 ppm NH4+???



You kind of understand based on above.

Because the molecule weight varies so much based on form of N the convention is just to express as the concentration of only the N and not the O3,H4....

In this case you don't have to compute from scratch since the measuring of most ferts for household use is based on a target N concentration.

For instance K lite and MSU should supply 100 ppm N at 1/2 tsp/gal (??? Anyone can jump in and correct if I'm off on this one). So 1/4tsp/gal should be about 50 ppm N

If you want to work from scratch, the NPK values are % by weight (of N, PO5, and KO).

So if the N is listed as 12 that means that every gram of solid fert contains 12% (120mg) of N. So 1 gram per liter of water should be 120ppm. Since a gallon is 3.785 L then 1 gram per gallon is ~32ppm.

I cant recall if a 1/2 teaspon of solid is roughly 4 grams of fert, but I think you can figure it out from there.


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## NYEric (Jan 22, 2013)

I hate to ask but; how did this go from a question of biology to chemistry? I think we need to look at the actions and affects to our orchids on a wholistic level.


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## Rick (Jan 22, 2013)

NYEric said:


> I hate to ask but; how did this go from a question of biology to chemistry? I think we need to look at the actions and affects to our orchids on a wholistic level.



Where's the boundary between chemistry and biology?

There's always this push pull of looking at things as a big black box, and then finding that inadequate because of the laundry list of variables, complexities, assumptions (due to fragmented data), and caveats.

So then we frequently tailspin into details that we can control. This is especially a problem with our hobby since most of the time we only have a couple of plants to try to test anything out on. How many Selenpedium are you aware of in culture?

I can hardly find any reliable habitat information. Anything wholistic would be total conjecture.


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## Rick (Jan 22, 2013)

dodidoki said:


> Rick, you drive me crazy with ppm..... You wrote "50 ppm N". What do you mean?
> Eg: if I use Ca(NO3)2 and solve it in water, how do you count ppm only to N?



Just to drive Eric nuts.

the molecular weight of anyhydrous calnitrate is 164 and contains two N's of molar mass 14 (sum 28).

28/164 is about 17% N in this case, so 1 gram of anhydrous calnitrate contains about 170 mg/N. If you stuck it in a Liter of water that would be 170 mg/L or ppm.

If you really are using straight calnitrate you need to check if you are using the agricultural grade that has 4 waters of hydration and ammonia impurity. So the % N is actually lower to acount for that.


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## dodidoki (Jan 22, 2013)

Rick said:


> Just to drive Eric nuts.
> 
> the molecular weight of anyhydrous calnitrate is 164 and contains two N's of molar mass 14 (sum 28).
> 
> ...



I will receive my EC/TDS meter on Thursday, I will see my fertilizers and will ask some questions, if it is not problem.


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## Rick (Jan 22, 2013)

dodidoki said:


> I will receive my EC/TDS meter on Thursday, I will see my fertilizers and will ask some questions, if it is not problem.



No problem, but might to start a different thread so its not all chemistry.


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## Rick (Jan 22, 2013)

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15144

Back to the matter at hand, Here's a thread started out by Olaf of Selenipedium in the wild.

Ecuador, sunny, steep hill overlooking river, wet red clay soil with ferns.

Sobralia growing nearby.

Maybe Olaf can elaborate more on conditions.????


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## Rick (Jan 22, 2013)

http://www.clays.org/journal/archive/volume 12/12-1-509.pdf

Here's an old paper on the minerology of red clay soils in SE USA.

Lots of iron, low pH (<5.), relatively high Mg (by weight about 50/50 with Ca), and low K.


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## Rick (Jan 22, 2013)

http://www.dbc.uci.edu/~flcarpen/papers/landuse.html

Here's yet another paper on red clay soil (Ultisols) in Costa Rica and mychorizae.

There is a reference (Graham) in the document that says that high phosphorus inhibits mycorhrizae in these soils.

I keep seeing VERY low pH's for these soils in some references less than 4.

Maybe you should look at the culture of Cypripedium acule for comparison.

There was very successful ex-situ culture of these by Vermont Lady Slipper.


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## keithrs (Jan 22, 2013)

NYEric said:


> I hate to ask but; how did this go from a question of biology to chemistry? I think we need to look at the actions and affects to our orchids on a wholistic level.



I was wondering the same thing! Only you have the balls to ask!oke:


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## Rick (Jan 22, 2013)

Now it looks like our very own Eric Muehlbaur wrote an article on Cyp acule culture. 
I can't find the old article written by Vermont LadySlipper, but the website says there is a culture sheet for acule that accompanies the plant purchase.

I also have a copy of John Tullock's book on Growing Hardy Orchids that has some stuff on acule.

The low pH soil condition, which may include watering with a weak vinegar solution is kind of a common thread.

Since Sobralia pulcherima is a sympatric terrestrial we should ask who is doing good with them.

At one time Leo Schordje appeared to by doing a lot with Sobralia.


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## Rick (Jan 22, 2013)

keithrs said:


> I was wondering the same thing! Only you have the balls to ask!oke:



So I just laid down 4 posts with links and contacts for holistic approach and you have no commentoke:


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## keithrs (Jan 22, 2013)

Rick said:


> So I just laid down 4 posts with links and contacts for holistic approach and you have no commentoke:



LOL.... Not every one has a cake job like you!!!!oke:

Serious I'll read them hear soon...


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jan 22, 2013)

Thanks, Rick...and our own Olaf Gruss translated it into German for Die Orchidee!
Actually, the first I heard about growing C. acaule ex situ was many years ago from Bill Steele (to whom I used to send my acaule pods). He told me that it took lots of experimentation, but he was finally able to grow acaule in a 50:50 mix of fine sphagnum and sand. Probably a close approximation of the soil I grow my Cutchogue acaules in- almost pure sand, with some oak humus, with a pH of 3.9.


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## Rick (Jan 22, 2013)

Ok so going through Tullock's treatise on acule (which he says is in agreement with Durkee, Vermont Ladyslipper).

"Maintaining strongly acidic, nutrient-poor conditions in the growing medium is essential to the horticulture of C.acule".

So rain, RO or DI water with 1 ounce of white vinegar per gallon. NO fertilizer.

For mixes, the Durkee mix is two parts partially composted pine bark fines and one part chopped sphagnum

The Tullock acule mix is the same for the pine bark fines with one part peat moss.

Given the red clay thing, at least a bunch of sand is in order. But it's also mentioned in the Tullock book that it seemed fine to set acule up on a bed of clay and just mulch over with a layer of the above mix.

There are whole sections on the debate over need for symbiotic fungus, but apparently in culture, adult plants don't need symbiots.


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## Rick (Jan 22, 2013)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> Thanks, Rick...and our own Olaf Gruss translated it into German for Die Orchidee!



Your Welcome

It was pretty cool when I was surfing for articles, and at the bottom of one seeing your name.

Hey I know that guy:wink:


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## Rick (Jan 22, 2013)

The nutrient conditions may be comparable for Cyp acule and Selenipedium, but for sure temps and light conditions are nowhere similar.

The habitat shots show pretty much short cover (full sun), and having Sobralia nearby also usually indicates very bright light.


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## keithrs (Jan 22, 2013)

I found this....

orchid mycorrhizae


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## Stone (Jan 23, 2013)

Rick said:


> > Still lots of epiphytic plants get huge with no more than 20ppm of salts coming there way in the rain water.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Stone (Jan 23, 2013)

Rick said:


> > Yes it gets fed at about 50ppm N once a week (less in winter) which has a conductivity of 300 - 500 us/cm, but the top ups and flush are with water less than 50 us/cm. This morning the sump was empty (the day after fertilizing too) so I just added enough water to fill the sump without flushing. This evening I let all the dregs from the pot drip into the sump and the conductivity is 160us/cm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Stone (Jan 23, 2013)

Rick said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > Rick said:
> ...


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## dodidoki (Jan 23, 2013)

Rick, looking at your plant I have another question:
plant is great, wery well cultivated, there in no doubt about it. As I can see do you use only anorganic clay as media?


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## Rick (Jan 23, 2013)

dodidoki said:


> Rick, looking at your plant I have another question:
> plant is great, wery well cultivated, there in no doubt about it. As I can see do you use only anorganic clay as media?



Yes this one is only in hydroton balls. I threw some scraps of live moss from time to time to get that growing on top, but that has only recently seemed to take.


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## Rick (Jan 23, 2013)

Stone said:


> Rick said:
> 
> 
> > Stone said:
> ...


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## NYEric (Jan 23, 2013)

Rick said:


> So I just laid down 4 posts with links and contacts for holistic approach and you have no commentoke:



Ok, I finally had the time to lightly peruse the articles which were provided and I feel they obviously show that other factors, presense of material which breaks down nutrients, Light and temp, airflow, etc. were factors in the growth of plants in addition to the pH and ion factors. Thanks for your info.


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## Rick (Jan 23, 2013)

NYEric said:


> Light and temp, airflow, etc. were factors in the growth of plants in addition to the pH and ion factors.



Your welcome Eric.

Since it looks like light/temp/airflow are common to a lot of other easy to grow orchids, I kind of cut to the chase, and rule them out pretty early.

Sensitivity in the root zone looks to be significant so focused on those aspects and mainly to the possible parrallel to Cyp acule root zone issues.

That one seems to be worked out fairly well to not need a lot of help via the mychorizae for adult plants.

We haven't heard from Ron in CT in a long time or maybe Tom in Japan. They live more in the Cyp world and may have something up their sleeves.


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## NYEric (Jan 23, 2013)

I don't think selen. are so simple or else they would be easy to grow in controlled conditions. Just my humble opinion.


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## Rick (Jan 23, 2013)

NYEric said:


> I don't think selen. are so simple or else they would be easy to grow in controlled conditions. Just my humble opinion.



It's only fairly recently that anyone had multi-generational success with C. acule in controlled conditions. And it took a lot of trial and effort to get to where they are today. Everyone blamed the failures on mychorizae issues, and then it turned out to be pH and starvation rations.

But it's not uncommon that big chunks of the biological world are the same in many respects, and you don't always have to start over from scratch to solve problems.

By the way Ecuagenera sells these for $100 a plant. Compared to early kovachii prices that's pretty cheap. Are they just digging them up when they have a sale, or are they propagating completely ex situ? Anyone have contact with them for info?


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## keithrs (Jan 24, 2013)

Rick said:


> It's only fairly recently that anyone had multi-generational success with C. acule in controlled conditions. And it took a lot of trial and effort to get to where they are today. Everyone blamed the failures on mychorizae issues, and then it turned out to be pH and starvation rations.



I dont know much about C. acule but if you go over to the terrestrial orchid forum, they have a whole section devoted to mycro. and there propagation.


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## Rick (Jan 24, 2013)

keithrs said:


> I dont know much about C. acule but if you go over to the terrestrial orchid forum, they have a whole section devoted to mycro. and there propagation.



Sure, and I linked a paper on endangered species conservation program that looked a lot at the fungus. Especially for seed germination success.

There was some pretty good stuff in an Orchids article about using fungus mixed in a gelatin beads with orchid seed and then just letting them sprout in damp peat moss. Nothing sterile, no crazy media or nutrients.

It seemed like it could go either way (sterile/crazy media, or non sterile/no nutrients), but combining the two generally does not seem to be very successful.


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## dodidoki (Jan 24, 2013)

Hello Rick!

I received EC/TDS meter.I measured my collected rain water, 56-58 ppm.
My question: what is optimal all TDS value for slippers and what is optimal ratio of elements ( N/P/K/CA/MG).

Many thanks: Istvan


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## NYEric (Jan 24, 2013)

Rick said:


> By the way Ecuagenera sells these for $100 a plant. Compared to early kovachii prices that's pretty cheap. .. Anyone have contact with them for info?


On their website it says unavailable. I'll ask at the Deep Cut show in February.


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## Rick (Jan 24, 2013)

NYEric said:


> On their website it says unavailable. I'll ask at the Deep Cut show in February.



Hugh. Maybe it was an old page.

I sent an email to Gilberto, and invited him to respond on ST.


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## Rick (Jan 24, 2013)

dodidoki said:


> Hello Rick!
> 
> I received EC/TDS meter.I measured my collected rain water, 56-58 ppm.
> My question: what is optimal all TDS value for slippers and what is optimal ratio of elements ( N/P/K/CA/MG).
> ...



I don't think there is a universal "optimal value" for all slippers.

I'll PM you.


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## Ozpaph (Jan 25, 2013)

Rick said:


> I don't think there is a universal "optimal value" for all slippers.
> 
> I'll PM you.



Rick, could you post, too? Thanks.


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## Rick (Jan 25, 2013)

Just got a fragment back from Gilberto at Ecuagenera

Dear Friend.


Related to the condition of Selenipedium.
Grows at an altitude of 600 m in damp red clay soil, Temperature: 20 to 30 degrees, Humidity 80 % light exposure high.

We are cultivating this outside under this conditions.


Best Regards.
Gilberto.

Aside from the red clay soil this much tells you, you should be able to grow it with your Vandas.

But I am pressing for more info on the soil conditions/feeding/watering...


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## dodidoki (Jan 26, 2013)

Can't wait to see more information! Many thanks, Rick!


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