# Paphs in stagnant water



## paphioboy (Sep 20, 2014)

It is as it sounds in the title. This is at my friend's nursery. They have used this setup for 5 years now. The water is permanently stagnant. They just top it up to the same level (covers bottom 2 inches of the pots). Media is volcanic rock topped with cocopeat, which is very wet. 

Bellatulum and brachys






Kolopakingii





Exul





Multiflora crosses


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## paphioboy (Sep 20, 2014)

In contrast to the above, the Barbata-type species do not sit in water. They have them in shallow plastic baskets, grown in very shady areas. Media is volcanic rock, sphagnum and cocopeat mix.

Delenatii





Callosum





Superbiens


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## Parryaw (Sep 20, 2014)

Wow! The kolopakingii and superbiens look really good, such big healthy clumps! Wouldn't mosquitoes be a problem for him?


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## ALToronto (Sep 20, 2014)

Do you know the pH of this stagnant water? I think if it's not too low, it would be ok for plants. And what material is the tray made from?


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## paphioboy (Sep 20, 2014)

I am not sure of the pH, but our water tends to be acidic. The whole system was meant to be a circulating water system similar for growing phrags, but they have not let the water circulate. The tray is made of cement. 



> Wouldn't mosquitoes be a problem for him?



Yes. He puts Abate (mozzie-killer).


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## Stone (Sep 20, 2014)

It shows that most paphs do well with constant moisture during the growing season more than a wet and dry cycle.... So in theory you should be able to water heavily every day with no problems!


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## paphioboy (Sep 20, 2014)

Stone said:


> It shows that most paphs do well with constant moisture during the growing season more than a wet and dry cycle.... *So in theory *you should be able to water heavily every day with no problems!



This is the important bit. Why the difference in theory and practice (most paphs in collections die when kept too wet)?


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## Stone (Sep 20, 2014)

paphioboy said:


> This is the important bit. Why the difference in theory and practice (most paphs in collections die when kept too wet)?



Dunno


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## Ozpaph (Sep 20, 2014)

interesting, thanks.


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## troy (Sep 21, 2014)

Lol..


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## paphioboy (Sep 21, 2014)

Nobody saying Low K? lol


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## JeanLux (Sep 21, 2014)

Yes, interesting Li!!!! Plastic or / and clay pots? Jean


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## polyantha (Sep 21, 2014)

paphioboy said:


> Nobody saying Low K? lol



Lol 

This setup could work pretty well for anitum and ooii too.


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## NYEric (Sep 21, 2014)

paphioboy said:


> This is the important bit. Why the difference in theory and practice (most paphs in collections die when kept too wet)?


It's probably warm enough there that evaporation is a factor tin keeping the roots from getting waterlogged.


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## Brabantia (Sep 21, 2014)

This reminder me the following facts. A French amateur cultivated successfully Paphios in his basement on small rockwool cubes (very humid). He maintained a rather high temperature. He wrote an article on his culture method, it appears on the site of Tanaka. Ref:_Here_


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## Lmpgs (Sep 21, 2014)

During hot greek summer, I grow my phals, paphs and phrags in plastic saucers with 3-4 cm water. The water is not stagnant as I renew it latest every other day. My plants love it so far. This summer was the second in row I tried this method. 

All plants are growing outdoor, minimum summer temperature 26-28 C and maximum 36-38C. When the temperature is dropping the plants don't absorb so much water.


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## cnycharles (Sep 21, 2014)

I think that the temps (high) makes a big diff for both the slippers and phals. If too cool and not growing they'll rot


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## paphioboy (Sep 21, 2014)

NYEric said:


> It's probably warm enough there that evaporation is a factor tin keeping the roots from getting waterlogged.



HUH?  I did say they are permanently sitting in 2 inches of water.. As hot as you like to think the tropics actually are, daily evaporation does NOT remove 2 inches of water overnight...



> Yes, interesting Li!!!! Plastic or / and clay pots? Jean



Jean, these are plastic pots.


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## paphioboy (Sep 21, 2014)

Brabantia said:


> This reminder me the following facts. A French amateur cultivated successfully Paphios in his basement on small rockwool cubes (very humid). He maintained a rather high temperature. He wrote an article on his culture method, it appears on the site of Tanaka. Ref:_Here_



Thanks for the interesting link. I think that's because artificial lighting tends to be very drying on the plants. In my friend's nursery, all the paphs receive minmum direct sunlight, so overheating of plants does not occur (and evaporation is also minimum).


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## Rick (Sep 21, 2014)

paphioboy said:


> Nobody saying Low K? lol



Does he feed at all? The system does not seem to be overrun with slime and bluegreen algae, and the moss growth looks pretty good too. This would suggest pretty low nutrients over all.

This is really just a version of Semi Hydro and I would say this works fine if everything (especially nitrogen) is kept low.



You did mention the tanks are concrete, and if left un-sealed tend to keep the pH from getting too low.


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## Parryaw (Sep 21, 2014)

If I ever get my hands on another kolopakingii I will try this method as his specimen looks fantastic. ( can't forget the mosquito pellets though )


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## troy (Sep 21, 2014)

that setup messes me up, they are totally healthy??????


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## NYEric (Sep 21, 2014)

paphioboy said:


> HUH?  I did say they are permanently sitting in 2 inches of water.. As hot as you like to think the tropics actually are, daily evaporation does NOT remove 2 inches of water overnight...


It does not have to remove 2 " of water, it just has to transpire from the roots not sitting in water. Easy with volcanic rock, right?


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## SlipperFan (Sep 21, 2014)

Interesting. If I did that, my plants would be dead in a week.


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## troy (Sep 21, 2014)

Those images aren't cgi? Lol... I agree with slipperfan my plants would be dead


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## paphioboy (Sep 22, 2014)

NYEric said:


> It does not have to remove 2 " of water, it just has to transpire from the roots not sitting in water. Easy with volcanic rock, right?



Ok, I get what you mean. I do purchase plants from him, and the roots go way to the bottom of the pot, soaked in water, bellatulum and multis especially. He says barbata species are reluctant to send roots below the water level, they stay just above and circle around the pot.



> If I ever get my hands on another kolopakingii I will try this method as his specimen looks fantastic. ( can't forget the mosquito pellets though )



Not necessary. Just keep kolo wet and feed it well when in active growth. Bright diffused light.



> that setup messes me up, they are totally healthy??????



Yes.



> Does he feed at all?



They don't feed much. Their fertiliser regime for all orchids is in fact low N, high P and high K.


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## labskaus (Sep 22, 2014)

Very nice plants your friend has there, and a fascinating setup.

I have the impression, that there's relatively little fertilzer involved, as there's not much algaeal growth in the water zone.
It might help that there's a relatively large water surface and excellent airflow in that setup, nothing I can duplicate in my GH conditions.


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## Alex (Sep 22, 2014)

If they're in volcanic rock there will still be plenty of air spaces, and no breakdown if there's no organic material (except the peat topping - what's the point of that?).

My question is, please, how does he feed and, if it's just adding feed to the reservoir, does he ever flush with clean water to avoid salt build up?

Cheers,

Alex


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## PaphMadMan (Sep 22, 2014)

An excellent demonstration that water, fertilizer, media and all environmental factors interact, and what works in one situation is deadly in another. I think I'm inspired to try something similar as my collection grows again.


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## paphioboy (Sep 22, 2014)

PaphMadMan said:


> An excellent demonstration that water, fertilizer, media and all environmental factors interact, and what works in one situation is deadly in another.



I cannot agree more. So for those who want to try to duplicate this setup, I suggest you to proceed with caution, perhaps using more 'disposable' hybrids.



> My question is, please, how does he feed and, if it's just adding feed to the reservoir, does he ever flush with clean water to avoid salt build up?



I mentioned earlier, there is no flushing. Just topping up the water level.

BTW, does anybody knows how nutrients would interact in this kind of mostly aqueous environment? Would the ions adhere (adsorb) to the lava rock or be mostly in the water as a very dilute nutrient solution?


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## Erythrone (Sep 22, 2014)

paphioboy said:


> I cannot agree more. So for those who want to try to duplicate this setup, I suggest you to proceed with caution, perhaps using more 'disposable' hybrids.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So there is a "roof" over the plants? No rain at all?


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## paphioboy (Sep 23, 2014)

Erythrone said:


> So there is a "roof" over the plants? No rain at all?



Yes, they are grown shaded from rain. They install an automatic watering system.


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## Erythrone (Sep 23, 2014)

Can we say it is really stagnant water if there is watering? I guess they water several times a week in very hot weather? So the water is draining and replacing the water on the bottom, right?


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## troy (Sep 23, 2014)

Would I recommend this method? bottom half of pot in stagnant water. what about the just add ice method of watering? but hey different climates different watering methods


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## paphioboy (Sep 24, 2014)

Erythrone said:


> Can we say it is really stagnant water if there is watering? I guess they water several times a week in very hot weather? So the water is draining and replacing the water on the bottom, right?



The tank is sealed. Water does not flow out, so topping up water level is done at a minimal, perhaps once a week only. So water is stagnant for most of the time.


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## paphioboy (Sep 24, 2014)

No answers to my question, so I'll ask again: does anybody knows how nutrients would interact in this kind of mostly aqueous environment? Would the ions adhere (adsorb) to the lava rock or be mostly in the water as a very dilute nutrient solution?


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## Stone (Sep 24, 2014)

paphioboy said:


> No answers to my question, so I'll ask again: does anybody knows how nutrients would interact in this kind of mostly aqueous environment? Would the ions adhere (adsorb) to the lava rock or be mostly in the water as a very dilute nutrient solution?



Unless they form prespitates, they will stay in solution.


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## PaphMadMan (Sep 24, 2014)

Lava rock is variable in composition, but mostly silicates and oxides in any case. It wouldn't hold nutrients like hydrated clay minerals do.


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## Rick (Sep 25, 2014)

paphioboy said:


> No answers to my question, so I'll ask again: does anybody knows how nutrients would interact in this kind of mostly aqueous environment? Would the ions adhere (adsorb) to the lava rock or be mostly in the water as a very dilute nutrient solution?



Can you give some numbers?

What is low N and high K?

the lava rock would have very little to do with N and K directly. But they offer a huge surface (both aerobic and anaerobic conditions) for bacterial colonization.

What ever N is not sucked up by anything photosynthetic would be sent back into the atmosphere as gas. The K probably won't go anywhere with respect to the lava, and the bacteria need very little for growth and metabolism.

Now P can bind up to Fe in lava rock, and bacteria and algae will pick up a lot more P than K.

But aside from this very qualitative description of process, need to take some measurements to get beyond speculation.


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## Rick (Sep 25, 2014)

lava rock was used in waste treatment and large aquarium wet/dry filtration systems because of the large surface area to volume ratio for bacterial colonization. Also it had both surface and deep internal porosity which offered lots of both aerobic and anaerobic habitats for a very diverse bacterial fauna.

It fell out of favor because it was so variable (mostly in metals composition).


I've used it as a common central filter for large commercial installations, and you can take out large quantities of both ammonia (aerobically) and nitrate (anaerobically).

Add good lighting and algae/moss, and this could be a great polishing system. Not "stagnant" or septic at all.


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## Rick (Sep 25, 2014)

Also we've seen some great results with semi hydro. So what is the difference?


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## gonewild (Sep 25, 2014)

Do you mean the water is "stagnant" as in contaminated and not healthy or do you mean "static" as in without circulation?

This really is simi hydro, even with CHC as the media.
Look at the water in the trays, it is not stagnant water. it is clear, clean and fresh looking. Maybe it does not circulate but it obviously has stabilized into a balanced healthy environment.


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## orcoholic (Sep 25, 2014)

paphioboy said:


> This is the important bit. Why the difference in theory and practice (most paphs in collections die when kept too wet)?


 Maybe because the volcanic rock doesn't break down? New bark can be watered pretty frequently. Problems start when it breaks down.


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## Rick (Sep 25, 2014)

orcoholic said:


> Problems start when it breaks down.



And bark/chc media can last a real long time (almost constantly wet) if you curtail the amount of N going to it.


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## paphioboy (Sep 26, 2014)

Rick said:


> And bark/chc media can last a real long time (almost constantly wet) if you curtail the amount of N going to it.



That is not really applicable in practical terms, is it? Plants in bark need more N to compensate for N used up in microbial breakdown, that's my understanding. Without supplemental N, your plants will show symptoms of N-deficiency.


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## paphioboy (Sep 26, 2014)

gonewild said:


> Do you mean the water is "stagnant" as in contaminated and not healthy or do you mean "static" as in without circulation?
> 
> This really is simi hydro, even with CHC as the media.
> Look at the water in the trays, it is not stagnant water. it is clear, clean and fresh looking. Maybe it does not circulate but it obviously has stabilized into a balanced healthy environment.



Static then, according to your definition. As I said before, water level is maintained by topping up. Never have I seen any semi-hydro pots filled with 2 inches of water (5cm). Its always about an inch max. High temperatures that we have here causes much more rapid algal growth than SH in temperate countries.


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## Stone (Sep 26, 2014)

paphioboy said:


> That is not really applicable in practical terms, is it? Plants in bark need more N to compensate for N used up in microbial breakdown, that's my understanding. Without supplemental N, your plants will show symptoms of N-deficiency.



Correct PB. Microbes out-compete the plant for N unless there is enough for both. If you don't supply enough, the plant starves first. Reducing the N in the hope the bark will last longer is false economy.


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## Rick (Sep 29, 2014)

Sure it's practical

Been doing it for a year now.

Water with N hitting roots goes to plants. Water with N going into bark (middle of matrix with no contact to roots anyway) goes to bacteria.

If you reduce N then the size of bacterial population otherwise expected to use all the N going to bark (not in contact with roots anyway) declines, and leaves more to plants as roots increase contact with more parts of the pot.

Trying to use bark as a long term (more than 48 hour) storage site for nitrate and ammonia is impractical and inefficient since that encourages large bacterial growth that "eats" most of the N.

Actually if you starve out the nitrifiers and denitrifiers (which are also decomposing the bark) you can actually encourage the growth of nitrogen fixers (such as BG algae living in moss and lichen matrices) that will start "making" soluble N products that the orchids can use.

Your friend may consider going "aquaoponic" and instead of adding fertilizer adding some live fish, and just feed the fish.


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## Stone (Sep 29, 2014)

Rick said:


> Sure it's practical
> 
> Been doing it for a year now.
> 
> ...


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## Denverpaphman (Oct 2, 2014)

Woah, interesting. I've been thinking about trying this out. Currently I have a Oncidium and catasetum sitting in water and they're going crazy. The rest of my paphs I have in a hydroponic flood bed that I fill up daily, and then completely drain.

I would be very interested in trying out this method, it would be so easy!


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## Leo Schordje (Oct 7, 2014)

The shallow concrete trays remind me of what I saw at the Royal Botanic Garden at Kew when I visited in 1988. They were dry, draining water away, but I suspect at one time in their history they were used to hold water. In many of the growing areas, especially the greenhouses over a century old, these trays were being used. I've seen them in pre-WW2 era greenhouses here in the USA. In the "olden days" commercial cut flower producers would use essential an early version of ebb and flow to keep cut flowers watered without getting water spotting on the blossoms from watering with a hose. 

Concrete water benches went out of fashion when they felt virus, bacteria and fungus could move through the water from a single infected plant to all the other plants that shared the water bath. The water was blamed, possibly before they understood that the primary source of virus spread was their cutting tools for the cut flowers. By the time virus control was well understood, commercial growers had become set against using a common pond of water to keep plants wet, whether ebb and flow, or hydroponic, or semi-hydro, the fear of spreading disease kept commercial growers away from these techniques. 

Today, with our understanding of disease transmission, and wider array of chemicals for treatment, re-using water is not as big an issue. But do keep in mind that many plants sitting in the same tray of water can "share" problems with each other. For my Phrags, I use individual trays, just in case one of my older clones has picked up a virus. 

For what it is worth, my 2 cents.


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