# Smuggler with Australian native orchids - the power of the media



## Roth (Sep 19, 2012)

The Bozos in action. In fact it is hard to know whether I should cry or laugh, but the libel suit promises to be interesting :evil:

But at least I learned that dendrobium seedlings and cattleya seedlings hybrids are 'Australian native orchids'. Next time I will try to collect some Brazilian cattleya in Alice Springs, just to see... :evil:



> Customs and Border Protection media release
> Tuesday, September 18, 2012
> 
> Customs and Border Protection seizes native orchids during export attempt - 18 September
> ...



It took time to realize that the 5 dendrobium seedlings and 4 cattleya seedlings hybrids from Rosella ( a really excellent breeder and grower of mini catts and many other things...) were the 'Australian native orchids'...

PV from the Customs, scan from the original , 9 orchids in small black pots (plug/plug+ size...) :




And the invoice from the wild Koala who helped me poach the Sophrolaeliocattleya and other cattleya and dendrobium in plug pots and perlite, with thermoformed tags please, in the bush:





9 plants of hybrid orchids, in plug pot size, referred as 'australian native orchids' by someone from the press service of the Australian Customs who apparently had no pride or no glory, and tried to get her minute of glory that every human deserves, according to the tradition. 

I am sure that she will have that at the court during a trial for libel :evil: :evil: :evil: 

But at least their informant was right, I did have indeed 9 orchid seedlings with me :rollhappy:

On the other side, seeing as how distorted a story can be, we wonder what we can trust when we read the media. I tend to think ' not that much '.


----------



## NYEric (Sep 19, 2012)

Hahaha! You, my friend, are back on "The List"!! :rollhappy:


----------



## Roth (Sep 19, 2012)

Reading the 444A and the 13A of the Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation act 1999, quoted in the Notice of Seizure, it apparently does not apply to what they confiscated and I have some experience in that kind of paperwork, once I can get the laws/acts as I just did.

Luckily there is a form to get the specimens returned on the back of the notice :rollhappy:

But indeed it is funny, and in a way I am grateful to that informant, made a new experience to me, and a nice libel suite to come...


----------



## ronan (Sep 19, 2012)

i thought you were a bit older...


----------



## gonewild (Sep 19, 2012)

Just curious how come the date on the receipt is today's date?
Better change that real quick! oke:


----------



## mormodes (Sep 19, 2012)

gonewild said:


> Just curious how come the date on the receipt is today's date?
> Better change that real quick! oke:



Nono, he's on the other side of the dateline, so is tomorrow there already.


----------



## gonewild (Sep 19, 2012)

mormodes said:


> Nono, he's on the other side of the dateline, so is tomorrow there already.



But the "crime" was committed on the 16th? 
Before the plants were purchased?


----------



## Rick (Sep 19, 2012)

Did y'all put Xavier's birthday into the ST birthday calendar?

I think we should run his astrological chart now too, and add to the legend:wink:


----------



## Roth (Sep 19, 2012)

gonewild said:


> But the "crime" was committed on the 16th?
> Before the plants were purchased?



Actually when you are at a show it is difficult to print commercial invoices, so the invoice is printed once you return. It is very common and normal that, once the show is completed, the grower puts in the accounting the total earned at the show, and can issue hand written bills at the show. if you require a printed invoice, it is always after the show, and for official purposes, it is always better to have a printed one.

But that's really a funny story on one side I think


----------



## Stone (Sep 19, 2012)

What a F**kn bunch of F**kn D**k Heads. It just confirms that the stupid f**king creeps would have absof**inlutely no f**kin clue if their arses were on f**kn fire!! They deserve a damn good thrashing:rollhappy:


----------



## eggshells (Sep 19, 2012)

Stone said:


> What a F**kn bunch of F**kn D**k Heads. It just confirms that the stupid f**king creeps would have absof**inlutely no f**kin clue if their arses were on f**kn fire!! They deserve a damn good thrashing:rollhappy:



Lol! Tell them what you really feel.


----------



## cattmad (Sep 20, 2012)

It took time to realize that the 5 dendrobium seedlings and 4 cattleya seedlings hybrids from Rosella ( a really excellent breeder and grower of mini catts and many other things...) were the 'Australian native orchids'...


9 plants of hybrid orchids, in plug pot size, referred as 'australian native orchids' by someone from the press service of the Australian Customs who apparently had no pride or no glory, and tried to get her minute of glory that every human deserves, according to the tradition. 

QUOTE]

I must be missing something, I dont see anywhere they are referred to as 'Australian Native orchids', only X9 small orchids, the country of origin is australia, this is where you purchased them as proven by your receipt.



Stone said:


> What a F**kn bunch of F**kn D**k Heads. It just confirms that the stupid f**king creeps would have absof**inlutely no f**kin clue if their arses were on f**kn fire!! They deserve a damn good thrashing:rollhappy:



over-reaction of the day!
AQIS were right to seize the plants, the Xavier had no legal CITES permit. I dont want to get into an argument on the validity of CITES, but they are LAW in this country like it or not. I'm surprised Xavier wasn't hit with a massive fine


----------



## Ozpaph (Sep 20, 2012)

It might have gone better if the specific plant details where on the invoice and matched the labels in the pots.


----------



## Roth (Sep 20, 2012)

cattmad said:


> I must be missing something, I dont see anywhere they are referred to as 'Australian Native orchids', only X9 small orchids, the country of origin is australia, this is where you purchased them as proven by your receipt.
> 
> AQIS were right to seize the plants, the Xavier had no legal CITES permit. I dont want to get into an argument on the validity of CITES, but they are LAW in this country like it or not. I'm surprised Xavier wasn't hit with a massive fine



It is referred in the Customs press news, look the first part of my post, as Australian Native Orchids, that's where I complain... Hybrid orchids is something, it may be illegal or not, but in a way, there is nothing at all unethical, it does not destroy the wildlife, does not disturb anything in the wild, and that's it.

In fact I do grow a lot of pot plant things too here, for the purpose of assessing the growth and this kind of thing. Australian have a lot of interesting hybrids, from sarcochilus ( no I did not...) to dendrobium through cymbidiums, that have a large scale pot plant market potential, and when I see growers that I advise as a tech adviser, I like to inform to them where they can source new or interesting things, it is not really bad I think... 

AQIS was not involved to seize the plants, about the massive fine, there is no need to dream about that, the fine is proportional to the value of the plants, and in fact, they were art propagated dendrobium and cattleya hybrid seedlings. On to the CITES, it is very litigious when it comes to the Appendix II species ( not the I, which is the subject of this forum...), because the mentions are about species, not hybrids, so it is very, very slippery, to be honest... Same about the Australian law, there is no reference to hybrids in the text quoted for the purpose of seizing the plants.

And you are right, they say 9 small orchids in small black plastic pots ( actually with a stapled thermoformed tag...), if you read, the press service of the australian customs converted it into australian native orchids, that's where they have a really BIG problem.

Technically it would be difficult to get a CITES permit for a car or a computer, and in fact, people have to go back to the CITES convention text, the original one, found at www.cites.org ...

As for the CITES Convention:

For the purpose of the present Convention, unless the context otherwise requires:

(a) "Species" means any species, subspecies, or geographically separate population thereof;

then

Regulation of Trade in Specimens of Species Included in Appendix II
1. All trade in specimens of species included in Appendix II shall be in accordance with the provisions of this Article.

and so on... The CITES Convention NOWHERE speaks about hybrids in fact, that's why I always said it is 'slippery'. The exempt hybrids in a resolution, but they do not confirm in the said resolution that the others hybrids are CITES covered...

In fact I never wanted to use that atomic weapon, even if I know about it for over a decade, because it open doors to many things, and could destroy completely the CITES Appendix II until they rewrite the entire convention, but anyway... 

The main problem being that many countries did not pay attention, and did not include the resolutions in their local law, as there is one resolution that recommends the inclusion of hybrids in both CITES Appendix. A resolution of the CITES is not automatically converted into a local law.

Add to that that many countries do not understand what is an orchid, and the difference. The CITES Thailand gave an hybrid of Nigrohirsute dendrobium ( Dawn Maree x christianum...) as an example of dendrobium nobile hybrids...

That's the reason too I did not see anything wrong with the catts and dendrobium hybrids - hybrids... and I am quite certain that in a court, that would be really a massive problem.

Let's see how my lawyer will handle the libel part, but with the extension and versions floating around, it is very clear that it will be costly for them in a libel suite, especially if they have to publish rebuttal everywhere...


----------



## cattmad (Sep 20, 2012)

Roth said:


> It is referred in the Customs press news, look the first part of my post, as Australian Native Orchids, that's where I complain... Hybrid orchids is something, it may be illegal or not, but in a way, there is nothing at all unethical, it does not destroy the wildlife, does not disturb anything in the wild, and that's it.
> 
> In fact I do grow a lot of pot plant things too here, for the purpose of assessing the growth and this kind of thing. Australian have a lot of interesting hybrids, from sarcochilus ( no I did not...) to dendrobium through cymbidiums, that have a large scale pot plant market potential, and when I see growers that I advise as a tech adviser, I like to inform to them where they can source new or interesting things, it is not really bad I think...
> 
> ...



OK, I was looking at the seizure notice. Interesting.

I know CITES has major issues, but if they were to simply say you only need CITES permits for species everybody would only ever import hybrids, the loophole would be exploited to no end.


----------



## NYEric (Sep 20, 2012)

cattmad said:


> AQIS were right to seize the plants, the Xavier had no legal CITES permit. I dont want to get into an argument on the validity of CITES, but they are LAW in this country like it or not. I'm surprised Xavier wasn't hit with a massive fine



Explain again why you need a CITES permit for *exporting* hybrids.


----------



## gonewild (Sep 20, 2012)

NYEric said:


> Explain again why you need a CITES permit for *exporting* hybrids.



Because the hybrids look exactly like species and the inspectors have the authority to hold for exam any plant passing the border.

Even though hybrids are not subject to CITES to protect yourself and the shipment from overzealous inspectors it is best to have a CITES certificate from the country of origin that the material is in fact artificially propagated hybrids.
With this the border inspector has no "valid" reason to question the contents.


----------



## keithrs (Sep 20, 2012)

Stone said:


> What a F**kn bunch of F**kn D**k Heads. It just confirms that the stupid f**king creeps would have absof**inlutely no f**kin clue if their arses were on f**kn fire!! They deserve a damn good thrashing:rollhappy:


----------



## cattmad (Sep 20, 2012)

NYEric said:


> Explain again why you need a CITES permit for *exporting* hybrids.



in my expierience the exporting country is the one who supplies the CITES certificate

Australia is different in that you need an export CITES from the country of export and an import CITES from the asutralian government for any plants coming imported


----------



## gonewild (Sep 20, 2012)

cattmad said:


> in my expierience the exporting country is the one who supplies the CITES certificate
> 
> Australia is different in that you need an export CITES from the country of export and an import CITES from the asutralian government for any plants coming imported



It is the same in the USA.

The export country issues a CITES "certificate".
To enter the USA the importer must have a CITES import "license".

The certificate is specific to the contents of one shipment.
The license allows the importer to import repeated shipments.


----------



## Stone (Sep 20, 2012)

cattmad said:


> > over-reaction of the day!
> 
> 
> Its not an over-recation if you know what really goes on in customs.
> ...


----------



## Stone (Sep 20, 2012)

keithrs said:


>


Now this guy can ACT!
:rollhappy::rollhappy::rollhappy:


----------



## Gcroz (Sep 20, 2012)

Stone said:


> What a F**kn bunch of F**kn D**k Heads. It just confirms that the stupid f**king creeps would have absof**inlutely no f**kin clue if their arses were on f**kn fire!! They deserve a damn good thrashing:rollhappy:



+1


----------



## Howzat (Sep 21, 2012)

Stone said:


> cattmad said:
> 
> 
> > Its not an over-recation if you know what really goes on in customs.
> ...


----------



## Howzat (Sep 21, 2012)

Exporting hybrid plants (9 tiny hybrids of no Australian connection) is a crime under Australian law. But for a government Department to misinform, (whether deliberately or out of ignorance or to feel the glory), the public at large that those plants were indeed Australian native is 100 times worse than the "crime " itself.
Roth may face humiliation in countries that he may visit in the future, as a native species orchid smugler. I think he has grounds to believe that he has been libeliously portrait as such.


----------



## s1214215 (Sep 22, 2012)

Just a note, be careful guys what you do say here. DAFF does monitor this site. That much I know for sure having had a DAFF senior inspector once ask me to confirm that I was s1214215 on this site. I regularly import orchid flasks and plants and they do keep an eye orchid forums. Good or bad, its what they do and for anyone who imports to Oz, I would consider this.

Brett


----------



## s1214215 (Sep 22, 2012)

Also, be they little or small, hybrids or species, if you seek to take plants out of Australia without the correct permits you are breaking the law. It was made clear on the AOC website how to get these permits.


----------



## Roth (Sep 22, 2012)

s1214215 said:


> Also, be they little or small, hybrids or species, if you seek to take plants out of Australia without the correct permits you are breaking the law. It was made clear on the AOC website how to get these permits.



- The AOC Website did not mention about exporting orchids out of Australia indeed, because they were not suppose to. It is a national conference, and we were not so many foreigners ( and quite a lot at the same time).

- I agree with you if you do not have the correct permits, however, the points are that those plants are dendrobium and cattleya hybrids, juvenile, still in their pots with industrial printed tags. The story is then a bit different. In fact, I reread the Act 1999 and the law appending, and I failed to find out anything about hybrid orchids, as well as CITES in the core of the text. I wait to get another version, to confirm, but there is a legal flaw in the core of the text ( in fact not only one). Most people who do real smuggling and are caught prefer to pay a couple thousands AUD of fine and go out, rather than to go to the court, make a legal analysis of the Act, a long process (but interesting), and eventually end up 10 years of jail and 100000AUD of fine. So no one before had a purpose to challenge some parts of the law.

- Nothing to complain about the Customs officers in Perth, they got an informant tip, they did their jog, but not on Australian Native Orchids after all...

- The media report is pure libel, in its extreme quintessence. It goes on even to the extent of not including the quantity ( you can find a guy where they counted the boxes of ants, and how many ants totally, and put it in the media, all the drug smuggling, knives reports have the detailed quantity, but not those orchids hybrids, 9 plants is maybe not enough to be impressive). It has been written by people who just want to make something 'outstanding and interesting' out of a really small story, without ethics, to serve their own personal glory, as previously said. I give them a chance to correct the whole report, maybe they did make a mistake, but otherwise we go to a 5-6 digit lawyer and a long court case for libel.


----------



## gonewild (Sep 22, 2012)

I am sympathetic to your cause but....



Roth said:


> -
> - I agree with you if you do not have the correct permits, however, the points are that those plants are dendrobium and cattleya hybrids, juvenile, still in their pots with industrial printed tags.



The problem is that you did not have the export certificate from the AU agency identifying the plants as hybrids. Just because they have industrial printed tags does not mean they are actually what the tag says. How many smugglers change the labels and try to export orchids......many. It is common knowledge that the inspectors don't know diddly about orchid id so they must rely on paperwork, unfortunately for you you did not have any for them.



> - The media report is pure libel, in its extreme quintessence. It goes on even to the extent of not including the quantity ( you can find a guy where they counted the boxes of ants, and how many ants totally, and put it in the media, all the drug smuggling, knives reports have the detailed quantity, but not those orchids hybrids, 9 plants is maybe not enough to be impressive). It has been written by people who just want to make something 'outstanding and interesting' out of a really small story, without ethics, to serve their own personal glory, as previously said. I give them a chance to correct the whole report, maybe they did make a mistake, but otherwise we go to a 5-6 digit lawyer and a long court case for libel.



You have just defined "acceptable" 21st century journalism.


----------



## Roth (Sep 22, 2012)

gonewild said:


> I am sympathetic to your cause but....
> 
> The problem is that you did not have the export certificate from the AU agency identifying the plants as hybrids. Just because they have industrial printed tags does not mean they are actually what the tag says. How many smugglers change the labels and try to export orchids......many. It is common knowledge that the inspectors don't know diddly about orchid id so they must rely on paperwork, unfortunately for you you did not have any for them.
> 
> ...



Actually, the industrial printed tags were part of the pot, and the plant was rooted in the pot, so that could be a good indication of what they are, but you are right... 

The problem being that they are said to be 'Australian Native Orchids', which means that the people who wrote the news report identified them as Australian Native Orchids... that's where their screw up is, because they are obviously Cattleya. When people don't know, they can speak about 'orchids', and finish. Those plants are orchids, if no one knows the proper identification, they remain as orchids. Stating 'Australian Native' is just to make the matter important, and get a nice thing to put online on their news website...

As for smuggling, indeed, but in most cases the plants pass with the proper name, and the proper CITES permit, just they have that cute 'A' appended on the CITES. That's a key point, most really smuggled orchids are smuggled... with the proper permits, except the real source ( wild instead of artificially propagated...). In this CITES is highly inefficient to serve its real purpose.

Journalism, indeed, but not only 21st Century. Beginning of the 20th Century, people started the 1st World War because of some journalists who reported tampered breaking news. We got, thanks to that and them too, the 2nd World War, with 'a few' casualties' if your unit is millions. The problem is a total lack of ethics in reporting the news. One time, I went to a Middle East country for 3 weeks, spent time there, discussed with the people, including some officials, very high rank, Muslims. No problem, and it was interesting. Interesting too that gays are absolutely accepted, as a kind of mistake, but the Ayatollah declared that, because there is a hope that they are real women with a medical problem, they must be accepted as gays. I have seen quite a few openly gay people during my stay. In regard to Islam, to protect them from attacks by ignorant people, they are just said to be a slight medical mistake, that can be corrected by surgery shall they wish... ( stupid according to our westerner standards, and definitely unacceptable, but in a hardcore Islamic country, to keep up with their belief, it is not so bad, the law is unacceptable, but the result is that gays and lesbians are free to do whatever they want, to some extent, in the streets or wherever...). That's a hardcore, Islamic country, that is quoted as bad and primitive by the journalists ( and believe it too, their scientist, including in agriculture, do not have to be envious of Europe or the USA...).

In a more 'tolerant' country, they got the diameter of their ******* checked, in Lebanon, to assess whether they are gays or not, which is one of the most disgusting things I have ever heard. Yet Lebanon is said to be a nice country by the journalists...

When I came back to France, journalists all over the world reported about 2 of those people I met, they refuse any foreigner, any Christian, they are assholes, they do not talk, they are primitive ( go for it, they spoke perfect French and knew a lot about our history ! And it was not a former French colony, far from it), the mass murders in the streets, the unveiled women that were beaten in that specific city ( they should have rented couple hundreds people to beat all the unveiled ones I have seen there, and it was not 'scheduled' by the authorities, I walked sometimes very far alone, and could see their real life...).

The same applies more recently to the 'resistance' in one country at war now, some are actual opponents, very few. The others are Middle Age Neanderthal people that the media push as 'victims' and 'good guys', like for many countries in the Arab Spring, but they are just so primitive that we do not want them anywhere, They want to allow only one book, the original Quaran, not even the Hadith or the commentaries by later islamic authorities, and ban music, as 'the only music acceptable is the recitation of the Quaran'. 

I have been there, met them. Journalist were happy too with the 'Arab Spring' that see women as a support for the men, with not too many rights, or the millions of tons of mass destruction weapons of Saddam Hussein farce, that in fact turned a corrupt, dictatorial country in a law less rogue country, with real bad guys ( though good 'opponents') there now.

Anyway, back to orchids and after that rambling.


----------



## Hakone (Sep 23, 2012)

John Swinton sur l '«indépendance» de la presse

John Swinton | rédacteur en chef du New York Times


"Une presse libre n'existe pas. Vous, chers amis savent que, et je
serait de même. Pas un seul parmi vous oserait son Avis de dire honnêtement et ouvertement. Le commercial est un publiciste plutôt, de détruire la vérité, de mentir purement et simplement, à pervertir, à la calomnie, au fauve aux pieds de Mammon, et lui-même et de sa race vendre au souci du pain quotidien, encore et encore. nous sommes Outils et esclaves des puissances financières dans les coulisses. Nous sommes le Marionnettes danser et de sauter quand ils tirent sur ​​le fil. Nos compétences nos capacités et même nos vies appartiennent à ces hommes. Nous ne sommes rien de plus que les prostituées intellectuelles ».


John Swinton (1830-1901) à une compilation NYC journaliste ", 12 Avril 1893

(Source:. Untold Story Laboratoire, publié par Richard O. Boyer et Herbert M. Morais, de la United Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers of America, New York, 1955/1979)


"A free press does not exist. You, dear friends know, and I would be the same. No one among you dare to say its Opinion honestly and openly. The mall is a publicist rather to destroy the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to slander, to fawn at the feet of Mammon, and himself and his race in order to sell daily bread, and again . Tools we are slaves and financial powers behind the scenes. We are the puppets dance and jump when they pull on the wire. Our skills and our abilities even our lives belong to these men. We are nothing more than intellectual prostitutes. "


----------

