# Monsanto shall pay 289 million US$ indemnity



## Berthold (Oct 23, 2018)

Judge Bolanos now will reduce indemnity from 289 to 78 million US$

But how can know Suzanne Ramos Bolanos that glyphosat (Roundup) causes cancer while official US authority and authorities from 160 further nations don't see a correlation between Cancer and glyphosat.

Is judicature in the USA based on emotional faith?


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## CarlG (Oct 23, 2018)

One can never predict what a jury will do. Emotions are often involved, and lawyers on both sides play to that: If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If neither are on your side, pound on the table.


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## orchid527 (Oct 23, 2018)

Berthold

It is a real problem in this country. The lawyers look for a suit friendly state like California or Louisiana where the awards are higher than average. They also advertise on the TV for clients for class action suits. Then they shop around for paid "experts" to support their position in court. That said, the real issue is that most people cannot distinguish between correlation and cause and effect. I'm sure that many people believe that if they have a problem and have ever used a product, it's the product's fault. The magnitude of this ignorance is demonstrated by the belief that vaccines cause autism. Mike


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## Berthold (Oct 23, 2018)

Mike, I see the problem and I am baffled.

The WHO sees the cancer risk of Glyphsat on the same level as hairdressing profession and the consumption of hot drinks as "probably carcinogenic", sunbeams and alcohol as "safe carcinogenic".
Is that a base for a 70 million US$ indemnity really?

Are these members of the jury perhaps Homeopaths, who know about the strong impact of substances below a dilution of D30, what is 1 to 10**30 ?


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## ehanes7612 (Oct 23, 2018)

yeah, I am certain a 66 billion dollar company is really hurtin to pay that 79 million , I was at Home Depot yesterday..they are still devoting half a lane for Monsanto glyphosate products ....this thread is another example of someone (the OP) who needs to get a life


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## KyushuCalanthe (Oct 23, 2018)

CarlG said:


> If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If neither are on your side, pound on the table.



Man, I don't know if that is yours or not, but it is brilliant!:clap:


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## Hien (Oct 24, 2018)

orchid527 said:


> Berthold
> 
> It is a real problem in this country. The lawyers look for a suit friendly state like California or Louisiana where the awards are higher than average. They also advertise on the TV for clients for class action suits. Then they shop around for paid "experts" to support their position in court. That said, the real issue is that most people cannot distinguish between correlation and cause and effect. I'm sure that many people believe that if they have a problem and have ever used a product, it's the product's fault. The magnitude of this ignorance is demonstrated by the belief that vaccines cause autism. Mike



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDyI10Z8aH0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bN3LXjigjIg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjkJbramtbk

when in doubt, we should always protect ourselves, they never tell you the truth until it is too late for you to change your fate.


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## Berthold (Oct 24, 2018)

ehanes7612 said:


> yeah, I am certain a 66 billion dollar company is really hurtin to pay that 79 million ,




Nonsense, 8000 further suing for damages would destroy the whole company.

Glyphosat is the best product in the world for that application. There is no alternate substance known jet with such minimal byeffect.

I fear Your skill is not in this field.


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## Berthold (Oct 24, 2018)

About 25% of Coca Cola drinkers in Germany die of Cancer. That are about 30000 people per year.

I think Coca Cola company shall pay 70 million Euro to each of them, because nobody knows if Coca Cola can cause cancer.

That is the logic of the jury from Madame Bolanos.


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## ehanes7612 (Oct 24, 2018)

Berthold said:


> Nonsense, 8000 further suing for damages would destroy the whole company.




GOOD!!!


While I dont think there is a strong correlation between cancer and glyphosate,.. I do believe the company has overreached in proprietary rights with their seeds. I grew up on two different farms in my childhood..the idea of a seed that is resistant to glyphosate while that seed enters the life cycles of other corn crops (transgenes) is an affront to many farmers and sensible people who understand the need for diversity in our food chain as well as protecting their own livelihood from lawsuits from Monsanto. The dependence on a single genetic strain of corn is a recipe for disaster in the long run. Monsanto is an insidious example of monoculture gone wrong. Right now, most corn crop is used for feeding cows (which is bullshit given that cows are ruminants and probably contributes to the need for antibiotics) and for food additives like lecithin and high fructose corn syrup , the principle component of COCA COLA!!! (the latter being more of an issue with health problems than the direct application of glyphosate ), so while there may not be a direct correlation to cancer, there is a connection to health issues from the application of glyphosate in our crops. I, myself , will use any opportunity to diminish the use of glyphosate and the culture it encourages in our food system. I actively discourage the use of glyphosate and any synthetic herbicides when asked. There are better ways. ...and yes, I am very aware of the science ...my bachelor's degree was in molecular biology of plants and I was in a Phd program in biotechnology on the early 90's. I studied and worked with plasmid DNA vectors.The agency for creating altered DNA back in the 90's. I left when I realized what path that education might lead me to. (Implant snide/ignorant remark by Berthold right here)

You don't have to be a Homeopath (for what its worth, I find that the use of the word here on this forum displays a profound ignorance of homeopathic practices ) to understand the complexity of our food system within our ecology...and to know that we are what we eat...monoculture is creating a dangerous situation for humans on this planet..we didn't evolve this way..we evolved from a diverse array of genetic strains in our environment, Monsanto cannot have this or their profit margin dwindles...as orchid growers , we should all know this


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## littlefrog (Oct 24, 2018)

Berthold said:


> About 25% of Coca Cola drinkers in Germany die of Cancer. That are about 30000 people per year.
> 
> I think Coca Cola company shall pay 70 million Euro to each of them, because nobody knows if Coca Cola can cause cancer.
> 
> That is the logic of the jury from Madame Bolanos.



You realize that the baseline rate for cancer diagnosis is 33% (1 in 3) over lifetime? 25% sounds pretty good for coke - is it protecting people? Yes, I know diagnosis and death rates are different, point is that statistics are dangerous weapons.

You will need far more persuasive data to get coca cola to be liable for damages. And yes, the jury was bamboozled.


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## littlefrog (Oct 24, 2018)

Fully 100% of all cancer death patients have consumed water. Take that homeopaths.


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## ehanes7612 (Oct 24, 2018)

littlefrog said:


> You realize that the baseline rate for cancer diagnosis is 33% (1 in 3) over lifetime? 25% sounds pretty good for coke - is it protecting people? Yes, I know diagnosis and death rates are different, point is that statistics are dangerous weapons.
> 
> You will need far more persuasive data to get coca cola to be liable for damages. And yes, the jury was bamboozled.



he was being sarcastic


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## Berthold (Oct 24, 2018)

ehanes7612 said:


> GOOD!!!
> 
> 
> While I dont think there is a strong correlation between cancer and glyphosate,.. I do believe the company has overreached in proprietary rights with their seeds. I grew up on two different farms in my childhood..the idea of a seed that is resistant to glyphosate while that seed enters the life cycles of other corn crops (transgenes) is an affront to many farmers and sensible people who understand the need for diversity in our food chain as well as protecting their own livelihood from lawsuits from Monsanto. The dependence on a single genetic strain of corn is a recipe for disaster in the long run. Monsanto is an insidious example of monoculture gone wrong. Right now, most corn crop is used for feeding cows (which is bullshit given that cows are ruminants and probably contributes to the need for antibiotics) and for food additives like lecithin and high fructose corn syrup , the principle component of COCA COLA!!! (the latter being more of an issue with health problems than the direct application of glyphosate ), so while there may not be a direct correlation to cancer, there is a connection to health issues from the application of glyphosate in our crops. I, myself , will use any opportunity to diminish the use of glyphosate and the culture it encourages in our food system. I actively discourage the use of glyphosate and any synthetic herbicides when asked. There are better ways. ...and yes, I am very aware of the science ...my bachelor's degree was in molecular biology of plants and I was in a Phd program in biotechnology on the early 90's. I studied and worked with plasmid DNA vectors.The agency for creating altered DNA back in the 90's. I left when I realized what path that education might lead me to. (Implant snide/ignorant remark by Berthold right here)
> ...



Sorry, You missed the topic of this thread.

1. The only question the Balonos jury had to decide was "is there a clear caused correlation between Glyphosat and cancer".
The jury decided yes but had no data for that.

2. Homeopathy is an absurd faith based ideology which is in contradiction to all scientific knowledge. It has no physiological effect at all, which is proved in an lot of scientific studies.
Dangerous is that there is a psychological effect on human beings, what we call Placebo. People feel good and therefor don't ask for medical assistance but they have a fatal disease.
There are some similarities between Homeopathy and religions.
Glyphosat seems to have a homeopathic effect on some human beings also.

So homeopathic practices should be prohibited.


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## ehanes7612 (Oct 24, 2018)

Berthold said:


> Sorry, You missed the topic of this thread.
> 
> 1. The only question the Balonos jury had to decide was "is there a clear caused correlation between Glyphosat and cancer".
> The jury decided yes but had no data for that.
> ...



You opened the floor by saying Glyphosate is a godsend of a product (paraphrased)...this opened your topic to a wider variety of criticism because Glyphosate has multiple applications and contributions that aren't necessarily measured in direct health effects but also is a consequence of society in general and how we approach our problems

The placebo effect has a very strong relationship in standard medical practice especially with pain management and cancer treatment (practiced by medical doctors )...homeopathy is in the forefront of this philosophy. Your statement that homeopathic practices should be prohibited is in regard to only acknowledging a tiny part of a spectrum of the practice (such as practices by Romani or certain christian sects). You would outlaw a doctors suggestion that a patient move to a more hospitable environment because there may be short term advantages (or even long term) ..this is also Homeopathy


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## Berthold (Oct 24, 2018)

ehanes7612 said:


> Your statement that homeopathic practices should be prohibited is in regard to only acknowledging a tiny part of a spectrum of the practice (such as practices by Romani or certain christian sects).


For Your information only, unfortunately I am very familiar with the complete homeopathic applications spectrum due to family connection to a homeopath.
And in addition there are some more physicians in my family and my surrounding.

All this homeopathic nonsense bases on fantasy of the German Samuel Hahnemann, which could never verified scientifically


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## ehanes7612 (Oct 24, 2018)

There are charlatans and bad people in every practice...it is common practice in the US for doctors to push a specific drug by a pharmaceutical company either because they are too busy to research the alternative drugs (that may be more effective) or because they are getting kickbacks. Homeopathy has its charlatans too...I live in Seattle ..probably the area with more homeopaths per square mile than any other city in the US...many of them prescribe to a balanced approach to homeopathy and medical science...they are called naturopaths/osteopaths. And, of course, there are those who are are zealots about homeopathic purity (such as the anti vaxxers) ...I consider them to be dangerous people for various reasons...but the only way to resist them is with information and not prescribing an entire sect of philosophical tenets to being flawed and requiring a prohibition. Although, if it weren't for homeopaths , the awareness of the need for clean drinking water would have been delayed by some years...they do provide a certain amount of passion to the argument for more healthy practices...especially the argument that we have to view our material health in a more wholistic sense (spiritual , emotional as well as physical) to be of sound mind and body...and to me , that is what lawsuits like those against companies like Monsanto, represent..even if those attributes are not admissible in court


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## troy (Oct 24, 2018)

Berthold, do you even grow orchids? You keep posting your personal political beleifs, than arguing without knowing what you are arguing about, you should be banned


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## ehanes7612 (Oct 24, 2018)

troy said:


> Berthold, do you even grow orchids? You keep posting your personal political beleifs, than arguing without knowing what you are arguing about, you should be banned



it is plant related


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## CarlG (Oct 24, 2018)

Not mine. Read it on a law blog years ago.


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## Berthold (Oct 25, 2018)

ehanes7612 said:


> I live in Seattle ..probably the area with more homeopaths per square mile than any other city in the US...many of them prescribe to a balanced approach to homeopathy and medical science...they are called naturopaths/osteopaths.



Yes, that is typical evidence for decadence of a affluent society.
Osteopaths are a special form of faith healers also.

For Troy, my special field is generative propagation of Calypso bulbosa. But I think that is to much special for You.


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## xiphius (Oct 25, 2018)

ehanes7612 said:


> GOOD!!! While I dont think there is a strong correlation between cancer and glyphosate,.. I do believe the company has overreached in proprietary rights with their seeds.



 ...I actually must admit that I had the same sentiments at the decision. I don't agree with the evidence presented, but it was wonderful to see Monsanto get slapped down for once. I have to wonder how much of the jury decision was based purely on bias against Monsanto. I have no sympathy here, Monsanto brings this on themselves - funny thing, when you act like a douchebag, people tend to not like you...




ehanes7612 said:


> Right now, most corn crop is used for feeding cows (which is bullshit given that cows are ruminants and probably contributes to the need for antibiotics) and for food additives like lecithin and high fructose corn syrup , the principle component of COCA COLA!!!



It's actually much worse than that. Feeding cows corn creates a health risk for humans who eat the butchered meat. Because they are ruminants and not adapted to eating grains, feeding grain creates a much more acidic stomach environment then is seen in grass-fed beef. This leads to acid-resistant strains of E. coli that would normally die in the human digestive tract, but can now survive and cause food poisoning in humans. While grass-fed beef is not, and has never been, free from E. coli problems, the risk is a lot lower.

http://news.cornell.edu/stories/1998/09/simple-change-cattle-diets-could-cut-e-coli-infection


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## ehanes7612 (Oct 25, 2018)

xiphius said:


> It's actually much worse than that. Feeding cows corn creates a health risk for humans who eat the butchered meat. Because they are ruminants and not adapted to eating grains, feeding grain creates a much more acidic stomach environment then is seen in grass-fed beef. This leads to acid-resistant strains of E. coli that would normally die in the human digestive tract, but can now survive and cause food poisoning in humans. While grass-fed beef is not, and has never been, free from E. coli problems, the risk is a lot lower.
> 
> http://news.cornell.edu/stories/1998/09/simple-change-cattle-diets-could-cut-e-coli-infection



yep, I stopped eating beef in the nineties when word of this was seeping into the public conscious...I will occasionally eat it now because the availability of grass fed beef is fairly high in my state


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## ehanes7612 (Oct 25, 2018)

Berthold said:


> Yes, that is typical evidence for decadence of a affluent society.
> Osteopaths are a special form of faith healers also.



it's because Seattle is a leading center for medical education and research (especially cancer). The awareness of health in Seattle has attracted many cross disciplines that work in tandem with western medicine...such as massage and feldenkrais.

You obviously believe that someone is best off just taking 30 kinds of pharmaceutical pills for their ailment and call that good health...makes sense, you seem to be a corporate puppet anyway. I bet you even have a great deal of investment in pharmaceutical companies. We know you like to do lap dances for Monsanto


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## Berthold (Oct 25, 2018)

ehanes7612 said:


> it's because Seattle is a leading center for medical education and research (especially cancer). The awareness of health in Seattle has attracted many cross disciplines that work in tandem with western medicine...such as massage and feldenkrais.



Homeopathy is no science and by that cannot be part of university education. It is an ideology.
I agree that placebo effect can be useful in some medical status of disease.

But homeopaths deny the placebo effect and insist in a true physiologic impact of a D30 dilution, what means a real deception of patients.


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## ehanes7612 (Oct 25, 2018)

Berthold said:


> Homeopathy is no science and by that cannot be part of university education. It is an ideology.
> I agree that placebo effect can be useful in some medical status of disease.
> 
> But homeopaths deny the placebo effect and argue a true physiologic impact of a D30 dilution, what means a real deception of patients.





well, science can be applied to homeopathy because it is falsifiable...just because something fails to be effective in clinical trials based on strict controls does not mean it cant be scientific..it just shows that homeopathy has no effectiveness...you can apply science to ghost hunting also. Western medicine is also an ideology ...anything is an ideology, science can be an ideology (especially in interpretation of evidence) , ..I think the term you want is 'faith' in the context of no evidence ...yes, homeopathic tinctures as they are called lack the credibility based on scientific but can still undergo scientific scrutiny...religion/spirituality cannot be scrutinized under science because it lacks the ability to be falsifiable..so, religion is strictly a faith based ideology. Strictly speaking , homeopathy is the application of small doses of a material, for the treatment of disease, that would normally be toxic to an individual (not usually practiced in a scientific way but nonetheless, can be)..it is not faith based but some people apply a faith to it from the inclusion of religion...this is how human minds work...anyway, treatment of disease is more than just the application of western medicine (environment and placebic effect are very important) ...science already knows this...pharmaceutical companies don't want you to know this. 

I am doing all the heavy lifting here Berthold..would be nice if you could explain your reasoning more..you know, like someone who knows what they are talking about

You are human Berthold...not a robot..you can make distinctions but still acknowledge that we don't live in bubbles ..everything is interconnected ..everything came from the same source


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## Berthold (Oct 25, 2018)

I can recommend all educated people only application of evidence based medical therapy. That will extend life time.

Homeopathy is not evidence based.


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## ehanes7612 (Oct 25, 2018)

Berthold said:


> I can recommend all educated people only application of evidence based medical therapy. That will extend life time.
> 
> Homeopathy is not evidence based.



How christian of you..and if the person isn't educated? what if the person asks why? are you going to insult their intelligence because you don't have the ability to extend a conversation beyond simplistic statements and absolute conclusions?
There is more to living than just extending life...if quality of life is terrible, what's the point ? if a person is in excruciating pain everyday , can barely function because they don't have the energy , because the chemo they received may give them a 20 % chance of living a few more months ..whats the point?? There comes a point in everyones life when they need to take stock and accept the terms that they are facing...the ideology of western medicine promotes sickness while being alive (an ideology reinforced by catholicism BTW), much of which is based in fear...but many of us are conditioned in this manner. I am not going to say that everyone who chooses homeopathy over western medicine is well informed but if you, are it takes a high level of courage to discard that evidence. If homeopathy gives a patient the respite to face death as part of being a fully alive person , then homeopathy has done more than western medicine could ever do. If there is one thing that science can confirm about being human...is that we are much more than evidentiary based beings. 

When I was much younger, I studied the Iching and some tarot, studied the Tibetan Book of the Dead, The Tao...to gain insight into my life and what direction I wanted to go.. I always remember this card from the only tarot deck I have owned..it reminds me of the mentality of 'western' ideologies ..how pervasive it is in every sector of our society ..from health to food , just our environment in general.








The question we could all ask ourselves..Why am I here? It's a deeply personal question and goes beyond any social construction we have invented for ourselves...and has an infinite number of answers and usually requires a great deal of reflection and insight...letting go of what is 'absolute truth', I have found is a way to aid the process


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## Berthold (Oct 26, 2018)

ehanes7612 said:


> There is more to living than just extending life...if quality of life is terrible, what's the point ?



Yes, if live is boring You can apply ASMR and You will have more joy to wait for the next decision of the court against Monsanto.
I am not christian or religious.


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## ehanes7612 (Oct 26, 2018)

Berthold said:


> Yes, if live is boring You can apply ASMR and You will have more joy to wait for the next decision of the court against Monsanto.
> I am not christian or religious.



you are of a western mindset, like most of us ...we all have grown up under the very strong influence of christianity ..it is as much a part of our social structure as our need to breathe air


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## Berthold (Oct 26, 2018)

ehanes7612 said:


> ...we all have grown up under the very strong influence of christianity ..it is as much a part of our social structure as our need to breathe air



No, I was influenced by ethic moral principals of my parents, who were not religious. 
Many years later I noticed that Christians and other religions follow parts of these principals also.

So from the 10 commandments of the bible I only accept commandment 4 to 10 (catholic counting).

But now enough off topics


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## KyushuCalanthe (Oct 26, 2018)

CarlG said:


> Not mine. Read it on a law blog years ago.



Ah! Honesty! Kind of ironic given the subject.


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## ehanes7612 (Feb 14, 2019)

one more notch in the belt of crapo Monsanto 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/14/health/us-glyphosate-cancer-study-scli-intl/index.html


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## troy (Feb 14, 2019)

Lol...


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