# Paph rothschildianum



## emydura (Nov 20, 2008)

This is my roths (Janet FCC/AOS x Western Springs AM/AOS) flowering for the first time. In fact it is the first time I have ever seen a roths in flower. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a bit dissappointed. The first flower is barely out of the sheath, has a dorsal that is folded, a busted right shoulder and the flowers are marginally bigger than my druryii. I'm pretty happy with the photos though.

I do get an incredible amount of deformities from first flowerings especially amongst the multiflorals. But they always come good the next flowering. Hopefully this will be better next time.

David


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## P-chan (Nov 20, 2008)

Beautiful photo is right!  I had a folded dorsal on a second blooming of one of my Paphs.- It is frustrating when that happens.  Your plant looks gorgeous. Nice job! :clap:


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## bench72 (Nov 20, 2008)

you sure know how to make them look pretty... after your description, i was looking forward to seeing Quasimodo!


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## Heather (Nov 20, 2008)

Lol Tim! 

David, it's not that bad....I haven't heard fabulous things about the Janet parent in general, but as it is a first time flowering, hopefully it will improve. Of course, you'll be waiting a while for that...:wink:


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## Roy (Nov 20, 2008)

David, the plant is small and the top flower is fine. Hey, you flowered a roth, I'd like a dollar for every Paph grower in Australia that would their (%^%*) just flower one. Just get that new growth rocking !!!!


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## @[email protected] (Nov 20, 2008)

emydura said:


> I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a bit dissappointed. The first flower is barely out of the sheath,



You have not to be dissappointed ! Just tell you, i've got a wild form ! Next flowering will be better


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## SlipperKing (Nov 20, 2008)

Hey I could be happy it bloom! A lot of roths wait for multi growths before blooming.....which means years! Great foto


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## goldenrose (Nov 20, 2008)

For crying out loud! Cut it out! WAY TO PICKY! I think you're being too critical for a first time bloom. As Roy said the plant is small & by god it flowered! Try focusing on what's good - nice color, clear, defined lines in the dorsal, petals & synsepal!
The photos are lovely, keep it up David!


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## jblanford (Nov 20, 2008)

Hey David...I'm with Rose, it looks great and the photo also, thanks. Jim.


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## Candace (Nov 20, 2008)

I think it's fine to have a critical eye when you're looking at your plants. Especially if bench space is a concern. I agree, nice photo and at least you got 2 blooms. My first bloom roth only had one. And then it had the nerve to croak!


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## JeanLux (Nov 20, 2008)

bench72 said:


> you sure know how to make them look pretty... after your description, i was looking forward to seeing Quasimodo!



:rollhappy::rollhappy: Without Notre-Dame cathedral background, Quasimodo looks pretty good!!! I would be lucky to have one of these .. flowering!! Jean


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## NYEric (Nov 20, 2008)

I agree, you should be happy to have flowered it. Well done.


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## emydura (Nov 20, 2008)

Roy said:


> David, the plant is small and the top flower is fine. Hey, you flowered a roth, I'd like a dollar for every Paph grower in Australia that would their (%^%*) just flower one. Just get that new growth rocking !!!!



You are right about that Roy. I can go to my grave a happy man. I flowered a roth. One of my goals ticked off. 


It is just one of those things. You wait all those years to flower it, you see it in bud, the big build up of anticipation and it doesn't quite work out the way you like. And you know it is at least another 3 to 4 years before it will flower again. Growing multiflorals can test your character a bit.

David


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## GuRu (Nov 20, 2008)

emydura said:


> ...I can go to my grave a happy man. I flowered a roth. One of my goals ticked off.



That's the only thing that counts !!! 



emydura said:


> It is just one of those things. You wait all those years to flower it, you see it in bud, the big build up of anticipation and it doesn't quite work out the way you like. And you know it is at least another 3 to 4 years before it will flower again. Growing multiflorals can test your character a bit....



That's absolutely true, growing multiflorals makes you become a patient guy!!
But as others wrote already before the upper flower looks absolutely immaculate, good coloration, good stance, no distortion. It gives you a good outlook *how all flowers* surely will be with the next flowering.

Best regards from Germany, rudolf


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## em_tee_w (Nov 20, 2008)

David,

Congrats on blooming your roth! I have a question for all of you now, though.

I bought a seedling labeled (roth x tigrinum) several years back. It finally spiked after 3 years, and I was so excited to see what it would look like. I certainly had mixed emotions when it bloomed, however, since for the life of me I couldn't see any evidence of tigrinum in it. It did look like it had mostly roth in the background. My question is, could this be a pure roth and not a hybrid?




Mike


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## emydura (Nov 20, 2008)

em_tee_w said:


> David,
> 
> Congrats on blooming your roth! I have a question for all of you now, though.
> 
> ...


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## Leo Schordje (Nov 20, 2008)

David, that is actually nice for a first bloom seedling. It can improve dramatically on subsequent bloomings.

A little about rothschildianum 'Janet' FCC/AOS - Hien -correct me if I'm wrong, I am writiing from memory again - and this can get into the realm of "Vague but True". This clone is from Janet and Lee Kuhn, the original founders of J & L Orchids way back in the 1960's. The clone was one of the jungle collected rothschildianums that came in as part of the Collinette Expedition that re-discovered Paph rothschildianum in the wild on Mtn Kinabalu, Sabah. (she also brought back Vireya Rhododendrums & Nepenthe)It is a vigorous clone, the Kuhns received an CCM on their original plant back in the early 1970's, it sends up new growths forming a colony fairly easily. The first award was under the name elliotianum, but it was re-exhibited later as rothschildianum when it got its FCC. 

The natural spread of Janet, depending on culture still runs right up there into the range of natural spreads for FCC awards granted in the 1995 - 2000 bracket - so the flower on Janet is still big enough for awards. The three principal reasons 'Janet' has been falling out of favor is that the petals and dorsal sepal are a bit narrow for todays FCC standards. A second reason 'Janet' is falling out of favor is the over production of the cross ('Janet' x 'Chester Hills') which was a inferior pairing of parents, that did not produce many award winners. They kept selling the same cross for over a decade, the resulting seedlings giving the impression that 'Janet' was a bad breeder. There are thousands of seedlings from this cross out there. 

In addition, the third reason, in 1993-1996 a different grower than the one referred to above, this one being in the mid-west, took some mediocre rothschildianum seedlings, labeled them as divisions of 'Janet', and sold them in the mid-west USA at high $$$ to make a few bucks. So, if you got your division of Janet from Lee & Janet Kuhn, you have the real 'Janet', if you got your division 'Janet' before 1993, you probably have the real 'Janet', if you got your division later - maybe yes, maybe no. Some of the impostor 'Janet' clones have been used as breeders, and as you imagine, they also lent to the belief that 'Janet" is not a good breeder. 

So in the end, rothschildianum "Janet' is a fine parent when paired carefully with a rothschildianum that has wider segments. 'Janet' will bring vigor, ease of bloom induction and good natural spread to the table, the other parent needs to be chosen to improve petal width, and brighten the colors. It being a jungle collected plant represents the 'wild type' for rothschildianum, and is valuable for that reason also. 

Why would I care enough to remember all this? I bought a division of 'Janet' in 1990, and someday I may want to sell a division. I can trace my division to the Kuhn's, but I no longer have the receipts. The great thing is, once one sees a good blooming on a well grown division of 'Janet', one will not doubt why it was awarded the FCC it has. It is so much nicer in person than its award photos in the old AQ's.


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## Leo Schordje (Nov 20, 2008)

emydura said:


> You are right about that Roy. I can go to my grave a happy man. I flowered a roth. One of my goals ticked off.
> 
> It is just one of those things. You wait all those years to flower it, you see it in bud, the big build up of anticipation and it doesn't quite work out the way you like. And you know it is at least another 3 to 4 years before it will flower again. Growing multiflorals can test your character a bit.
> 
> David



I have had thousands of potential FCC awardable plants in bud, I don't have any FCC certificates hanging on the wall. Who said patience is a virtue?


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## nikv (Nov 20, 2008)

^ ^

Thanks, Leo, for the history lesson. Information such as this is what I reallly love about this forum! Where else would one learn such things? But now I have a question for you. I've seen the 'Janet' x 'Chester Hills' cross available from Carter and Holmes Orchids. They still offer it, I think. I've often thought of purchasing one of them since I don't have a pure roth in my collection. Would you recommend it or recommend against it? I value your opinion.

Best Regards,
Nik

Edited to add: I notice that Krull-Smith has some very nice roth seedlings too. Would that be a better choice?


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## emydura (Nov 20, 2008)

Thanks Leo for the positive feedback and interesting history lesson. It does seem to be a good grower. More vigorous then my other roths. To be honest this would be the most important trait for me. Ease of growth.

Am I correct in saying Janet is the first roths to get an FCC award. I remember reading that somewhere.

You say Janet and Chester Hills are not a great matchup. Do you know anything about the roths clone "Western Springs" AM/AOS and its compatability with Janet. Can't say I have heard of it myself. There is a few of this cross around in Australia. I have another one as well but a lot smaller.

A fellow Paph grower here in Canberra supposedly has a division of Janet he got from the big Paph nursery in NZ and paid quite a bit for it. I don't even know if he has flowered it. Maybe once but I haven't seen it. He has had it for years and the plant is huge. Just grows and grows but seems reluctant to flower. 

David


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## Rick (Nov 20, 2008)

Barely bigger than your druryii??

I'd hate to get measured by your ruler Davidoke:oke:

It looks like a fine flower for a 1st time blooming roth.


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## emydura (Nov 20, 2008)

Rick said:


> Barely bigger than your druryii??
> 
> I'd hate to get measured by your ruler Davidoke:oke:
> 
> It looks like a fine flower for a 1st time blooming roth.



My mother told me a million times never to exaggerate. 

I have a couple of roth primaries open at the moment which are considerably bigger than the roth itself. But as everyone keeps sensibly saying, you can't really judge it till its 2nd or 3rd flowering. Fingers crossed I can get it to that stage.

David


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## emydura (Nov 20, 2008)

SlipperKing said:


> Hey I could be happy it bloom! A lot of roths wait for multi growths before blooming.....which means years! Great foto



Rick - I have found with these multis that I am better off in the long run to have flowering delayed and the plant grow into a sizeable clump before it first flowers. All my best and most reliable plants are those that have done this. They are much more vigorous and flower much quicker and better. I find that those that flower early such as this roths are a bit of a battle to grow on after flowering and can take many years to flower again. It is like they are in permanent seedling mode. 

David


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## Leo Schordje (Nov 20, 2008)

nikv said:


> I've seen the 'Janet' x 'Chester Hills' cross available from Carter and Holmes Orchids. They still offer it, I think. I've often thought of purchasing one of them since I don't have a pure roth in my collection. Would you recommend it or recommend against it?
> Nik


I've seen a couple, the background color is a nice rich yellow, the markings are fairly rich dark brown, they are pleasing to the eye. If you just want a rothschidianum to grow & bloom, they are not too expensive. If you are looking for potential awards, more into the competitive aspect of growing, buy from Krull-Smith, Orchid Inn, or Orchid Zone through one of the California Retailers.



emydura said:


> Thanks Leo for the positive feedback and interesting history lesson. It does seem to be a good grower. More vigorous then my other roths. To be honest this would be the most important trait for me. Ease of growth.
> Am I correct in saying Janet is the first roths to get an FCC award. I remember reading that somewhere. David



I don't think so, but I don't know. Someone from the judging system could answer this with AOS - AQ on DVD, or WildCatt? 



emydura said:


> You say Janet and Chester Hills are not a great matchup. Do you know anything about the roths clone "Western Springs" AM/AOS and its compatability with Janet. Can't say I have heard of it myself. There is a few of this cross around in Australia. I have another one as well but a lot smaller.


I don't know the clone 'Western Springs' at all, perhaps Hien does? 



emydura said:


> A fellow Paph grower here in Canberra supposedly has a division of Janet he got from the big Paph nursery in NZ and paid quite a bit for it. I don't even know if he has flowered it. Maybe once but I haven't seen it. He has had it for years and the plant is huge. Just grows and grows but seems reluctant to flower.
> David


 Well, it is good that his plant is huge, when he does flower it, the comparison to the award photo won't have the issue of being a distressed one or two growth blooming. They should compare favorably. There will never be any way to be absolutely certain, but there are photos around of the original 'Janet', if the measurements match the award description within a centimeter or two on lengths and a millimeter or two on widths, and the 'look' is similar to the photos, it likely is the real deal. But how different is enough to say they are not? Different growing environments will change the look of the flower some, so like I said, it will be impossible to be certain that one has the real deal. I would NOT go to your friend and tell him he doesn't really have 'Janet', that would be wrong. Just keep my tale in mind, and if he is disappointed with his division of 'Janet' when it blooms, you might offer up my tale as a possible explaination. - Leo


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## SlipperFan (Nov 20, 2008)

Interesting discussion. So much I don't know.

The flower looks pretty good to my roth-untrained eye.


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## swamprad (Nov 20, 2008)

Leo, I find such orchid tales very fascinating, thanks for sharing.


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## Wendy (Nov 20, 2008)

Nice first bloom flower. Great post as well. I have several roths and one is the mentioned cross 'Janet' x 'Chester Hills'. It has bloomed and I was happy with it but will reserve judgement on it until it blooms a second time. I do have several Orchid Inn crosses and am really looking forward to seeing those flower....in another 3-4 years. I also have 'Commander' x self and it is a smaller growing plant with a somewhat smallish flower. Very vigorous though!


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## rdlsreno (Nov 20, 2008)

emydura said:


> Hi Mike
> 
> There is definately no tigrinum in it. It is a hybrid. Susan Booth I think which is roths x praestans. Very nice too. I like the dark pouch.
> 
> ...



I agree! Looks like Paph. Susan Booth.


Ramon


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## Paul (Nov 21, 2008)

Good job and a nice bloom that will surely improve on a much bigger plant!! ;-)

I'm waiting (very excited!!) for my first 2 roths to bloom, soon now (normally in spring). one was deflasked spring 2005, the other was bougth 18 months ago as... a young plant (knight challenge SM/JPG x Titanic GM/JPG!! lol)
The latest crosses are much faster and easier to grow than old ones.


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