# HELP!!! Seedling root rot :-(



## Nutz4Paphs (Oct 29, 2008)

I know, I know...I committed one of the worst crimes in orchid growing. I left plants in another growers mix!!! I usually always take a plant out of its growing media and put it in mine since I know how it reacts to my environment. Anyway, I purchased several complex paph seedlings from a great grower and left them in the original mix since they were seedlings. This mix retains much more moisture than the mine. I was looking closely at the plants today and noticed that the plants were looking just a little sad. I decided to take one out of its pot and look at the roots. Well,  the little root system was almost gone. The leaves look healthy enough and no signs of crown rot. This is quite embarrassing since I pride myself on healthy roots. See my kolopakingii 'Riopelle' roots I posted a couple of weeks ago if you dont believe me  
What do I do to save these little guys? I worry that if I try to baby them, they will just get worse. 
HELP!


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## Damas (Oct 29, 2008)

Try the bag with moisted sphagnum, or just sphagnum, it works ! And as soon as you see new roots coming, you put them in your own media. Here


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## Nutz4Paphs (Oct 29, 2008)

Thanks Damas,
I read the thread, but I am still a little confused I get a plastic bag, put some moist sphag in it, place the plant base in the moss...but do I close the bag to give high humidity or leave it open for more air circulation. Place in the shade, under my flourescent lights or should I give them natural light in the greenhouse? I also have a large terrarium that has good humidity and is constantly warm but not much air circulation. Maybe that?


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## Damas (Oct 29, 2008)

Hum... I think you should do it the way you prefer. I only have experience on placing the plant directly in the moisted sphagnum, under artificial lights, 14 hours a day. T° was from 22° at night to 27° during the day. No plastic bags, and it worked well.
The other way is to put plant in a bag, sphagnum in the bag too, but not touching the plant. Bag inflated by blowing into it, and sealed with a rubber, hanged on the front of a window.. Once a day you open the bag and blow it again (that is supposed to provide CO2, to help the plant). I did not test it myself, but people I know had good results. You can also plant it in sphagnum and top it with a plastic bag upside down, kept open for aeration. The idea is to keep constant humidity near the plant base, where new roots will emerge and to avoid rot, by providing light and heat to the plant.


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Oct 29, 2008)

I vote for a whole diffrent approach. Take a piece of that green wire that many of use to hold our spikes up with. Cut off a small piece and take each end of it and twist it back onto it'self so that it forms a circle approx. the size of a quater. After you have that done on both ends take the wire in the middle and twist it around what is left of the roots at the base. Then just repot it into your normal mix and treat it like you would the rest of your plants. That wire will hold the plant firm so that it can grow some new roots. I got this tech. from Hadley of Marriott Orchids. I've seen him do it to plants with no roots at all and bring them back to life. That spagnum and bag thing never seemed to work for me.

Hope this helps.


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## SlipperKing (Oct 29, 2008)

There is an article in a recent AOS mag where the grower put new roots on 1/2 doz. plants by placing them in straight sponge rock(in a pot) and watered. He did add a growth hormone at the begining and maybe something else was done. Or was it in the Orchid Digest? Oh well, someone here will remember and add to this! Good luck


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## NYEric (Oct 29, 2008)

With sphag-n-bag I use a closed plastic bag. I have about 50% success rate. Since you have seedling*s* you can test diff methods if you want.


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## swamprad (Oct 29, 2008)

SlipperKing said:


> There is an article in a recent AOS mag where the grower put new roots on 1/2 doz. plants by placing them in straight sponge rock(in a pot) and watered. He did add a growth hormone at the begining and maybe something else was done. Or was it in the Orchid Digest? Oh well, someone here will remember and add to this! Good luck



It was a recent Orchid Digest, I have heard about this article but I just subscribed to OD, so I don't have my own copy. I would greatly appreciate hearing more details of this method!

I have used sphag in bag successfully on several occasions. I put the orchid base in moistened sphagnum, seal the bag, and put it on a shelf, not under my grow lights, just in ordinary room light, and wait a few weeks.


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## Mrs. Paph (Oct 29, 2008)

There's a post awhile back where I described my 'sphag in Vase modified 'sphag in bag method - I've had issues w/ moisture collecting on the bag, and it tipping over onto the plant, which leads to nothing good, so you might look up that and try it. If you already have really good humidity levels though, the twist tie in regular media sounds like it could be good too. I just don't have the humidity I would like to have in my current setup, so if something's damaged, I really feel I need to help it out by upping the humidity somehow. I also agree w/ the comments about lowering the light for awhile. Good luck w/ the seedlings!


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## Paul (Oct 30, 2008)

hello,
I know this problem. If you have superthrive, then you can soak the roots and crown into a solution at max strengh (look at the instructions on flask) for 15-30min then repot into your normal compot. Then the best would be to use 10-52-10 fertilizer for 2-3 weeks not more (at pH 6.5 to 7.0 for best results). You should have strong roots quickly (I do that way)
good luck!


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## biothanasis (Oct 30, 2008)

Good luck...! I hope they all grow up and reward you with great blooms...


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## Rick (Oct 30, 2008)

SlipperKing said:


> There is an article in a recent AOS mag where the grower put new roots on 1/2 doz. plants by placing them in straight sponge rock(in a pot) and watered. He did add a growth hormone at the begining and maybe something else was done. Or was it in the Orchid Digest? Oh well, someone here will remember and add to this! Good luck



I read this article too.

Not only did they go into sponge rock, but they used KLN (maybe in a semihydro setup. KLN I believe is a high K fertilizer, but also has the same hormone and B1 as superthrive in it.

The article also says to support rootless plants in high humidity conditions.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Oct 30, 2008)

The article was in the Orchid Digest. I am currently trying it with 6 rootless paphs. Some have been in it for 2 months. No roots on any of them. The leaves do stay firm....but I have yet to see a single root. One appears to be on its way out...another seems to be starting to go downhill...the rest have firm leaves, but no root growth. Take care, Eric


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## Rick (Oct 30, 2008)

Yup. It's OD 72-3 3rd 1/4 2008

It is a SH treatment using sponge rock as media. Dyna Grow KLN is the supplement.

KLN is not a high K but a high P fertilizer. It took a little digging, but its a 9/11/6 mix. It also has IBA, NAA, and B1 in it (NAA and B1 are in Superthrive). The authors also profess that maintaining a high air humidity is critical. They also say that starting in fall/winter seems to be much slower than for spring.


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## Corbin (Oct 30, 2008)

Bob in Albany said:


> I vote for a whole diffrent approach. Take a piece of that green wire that many of use to hold our spikes up with. Cut off a small piece and take each end of it and twist it back onto it'self so that it forms a circle approx. the size of a quater. After you have that done on both ends take the wire in the middle and twist it around what is left of the roots at the base. Then just repot it into your normal mix and treat it like you would the rest of your plants. That wire will hold the plant firm so that it can grow some new roots. I got this tech. from Hadley of Marriott Orchids. I've seen him do it to plants with no roots at all and bring them back to life. That spagnum and bag thing never seemed to work for me.
> 
> Hope this helps.




I've read this several times and I still can not figure out, for certain, what you do with the two ends that you twisted into circles. Will you help a confused old man out please.


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Oct 31, 2008)

Corbon. What you are going is attaching the wire to the plant at the base where the roots should be. You plant the wires into you meidium as if they were roots. It stablizes the plant so that it can grow roots. In other words these wire are proforming only the stabilization functin. Naturally it doesn't do anything more then keep the plant stable and allow new roots to grow. I'm telling you it works great. Least it does in my growing space which is a green house.


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## NYEric (Oct 31, 2008)

But don't you grow in S/H Bob?


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Oct 31, 2008)

Eric the vast majority of my collection is in S/H. However in the last year and a half most of what I've been buying I'm putting in chc and aliflor (or similar product). It seems to me that some of my s/h plants may be growing slower then they would in a chc mix. I've decided to experiment with chc and aliflor. As a matter of fact I bougth about 40 paphs just to experiment with. I put them in diffrent formulas and diffrent kinds of pots. Some are in clay and some in plastic. I even when so far as to put a couple in staright CHC to see what happens. The ones in straight CHC are already starting to fail as the days are getting shorter. I however will not move any of the plants out of there pots no matter how badly they do. That is not until about 12 to 15 months into the experiment. One of them in my test group in currently in high bud. Seems it's a white complex.


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## NYEric (Oct 31, 2008)

I think the sphagnum may have some property that the roots like to grow into - simulates natural condition!?


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## Corbin (Oct 31, 2008)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> The article was in the Orchid Digest. I am currently trying it with 6 rootless paphs. Some have been in it for 2 months. No roots on any of them. The leaves do stay firm....but I have yet to see a single root. One appears to be on its way out...another seems to be starting to go downhill...the rest have firm leaves, but no root growth. Take care, Eric



Eric,

I have a concolor that I unpotted after blooming to find that it had absolutely no roots. It just had a stub sticking down into the medium. I have had it potted in sphagnum now for 6 or 8 months. The original growth and the existing second growth have not grown any. Two new growths have started but are growing so slow they seem to be standing still. I unpotted it again about 2 weeks ago and it still had no roots despite the fact that it added two new growths. Part of me says keep trying and the other part of me, which is probably winning, says give it up and get another one.


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## goldenrose (Nov 1, 2008)

It added 2 growths & you want to dump it?  Don't give up!


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## goldenrose (Nov 1, 2008)

'I have a concolor that I unpotted after blooming to find that it had absolutely no roots. It just had a stub sticking down into the medium.... I unpotted it again about 2 weeks ago and it still had no roots despite the fact that it added two new growths. Part of me says keep trying and the other part of me, which is probably winning, says give it up and get another one."

It added 2 growths & you want to dump it?  Don't give up! Listen to the keep trying side! IMO 2 weeks is nothing to expect noticeable root growth when switching mediums.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 1, 2008)

My problem is that I never give up....I nurse decrepit plants for months, sometimes years,when they really have no future...but as long as I see life in them, and especially if they are something I want (I want them all............), I can't help trying to save them......usually unsuccessfully. Take care, Eric


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## Corbin (Nov 1, 2008)

goldenrose said:


> 'I have a concolor that I unpotted after blooming to find that it had absolutely no roots. It just had a stub sticking down into the medium.... I unpotted it again about 2 weeks ago and it still had no roots despite the fact that it added two new growths. Part of me says keep trying and the other part of me, which is probably winning, says give it up and get another one."
> 
> It added 2 growths & you want to dump it?  Don't give up! Listen to the keep trying side! IMO 2 weeks is nothing to expect noticeable root growth when switching mediums.



No, I first found it had no roots in the fall of 2007 so it has been almost a year in the spag. trying to grow new roots. I am amazed that it has not completely died. The two new growths would easily fit on a dime so they are very small and do not seem to have grown much in the last six months. I just repotted them again a couple months ago to see if fresh spag. would spur them on but it does not seem to have helped. Still since they are only in a 2 inch pot they do not take up much room.


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## paphiness (Feb 2, 2009)

*wires as roots*

I've dealt with many rootless plants myself, both home "grown" and ones that I've bought. I've seen and used two methods that have a fair success rate:

===
1) Wiring
This is a very interesting idea that I've seen or heard several professional growers attest to. Apparently the wires keep the plant very still so that new root tips are not jostled as they emerge from the plant. Why this works, I'm not really sure... 

After all, most plants are just sitting there -- how can there be enough movement to cause damage to new root tips? One answer I heard was that watering the plant can cause it to shift about. I'm still not totally satisfied with that answer, but that's what I've heard...

I've seen one venerable grower wrap the base of a big multifloral with stiff wire (a little more flexible than clothes hanger material) and make faux roots with it. The real roots seem to have no problem emerging later.


2) Sphag-and-bag
I've tried the sphag-and-bag, or in my case, sphag-and-box, and that has sometimes worked. I think it works best when you grow up the sphagnum for awhile, and new sphagnum starts to grow. Yes, I know that the sphagnum is supposed to be dead when you buy it in the rectangular cubes, but you can grow it given humid enough conditions. And no, I'm not talking about algae, either. Once the sphagnum starts growing again, it's quite apparent since you see new green vegetative matter that resembles miniature blades of newly-grown grass.

In any case, I've been able to root out many rootless seedlings in a small transparent box (6 in x 6 in x 6 in or so in size), and actually with no drainage, or air movement, either! A double slap at conventional wisdom...
===


I would estimate that my plant recovery rate using these two methods has been about 75%. It also has a lot to do with how healthy the rest of the plant is (i.e., the part without roots) is in the first place. If it's pretty healthy, it will have a better chance of recovering, whereas a plant with limp leaves and no roots has a more uphill battle.

Terry Root once told me that you can flower paphs with no roots, that foliar feeding could be sufficient for growth. But that's a whole other divisive topic...

There are a few more tricks I've heard; one day soon I'll post them on slipperorchidblog.com.


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## SlipperFan (Feb 2, 2009)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> My problem is that I never give up....I nurse decrepit plants for months, sometimes years,when they really have no future...but as long as I see life in them, and especially if they are something I want (I want them all............), I can't help trying to save them......usually unsuccessfully. Take care, Eric


Ah, a man after me own heart....


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## NYEric (Feb 3, 2009)

I do the same thing, I hate to give up on plants. I recently found that I was having a problem w/ some besseae flavum hybrids; I put them in sphag-n-bag and wouldn't you know I had a thrip/fungus gnat explosion inside some of the bags! I applied an insecticide and after I leave the bag closed to get any possible next generation I'll switch the plants and see how any growths do.


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