# MSU Fertilizer



## gonewild (Mar 23, 2007)

It would be interesting to know how many different formulas of MSU type fertilizers are being sold and used. There are many people selling it under their own labels and I wonder if they are all actually from the same bulk supplier.
Everyone please post where you buy your MSU fertilizer from and what formula you use. Post a link to the suppliers webpage if possible. This is not meant to endorse suppliers or brands but rather to learn what is available and from where.

I buy mine from First Rays. The formula is 13-3-15-8Ca-2Mg


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## littlefrog (Mar 23, 2007)

I get mine right from Blackmore. I think it is the same breakdown as yours (I don't have a label anywhere handy). I certainly didn't customize it in any way. RO Special and Well water special are the only two I've ever bought.


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## likespaphs (Mar 23, 2007)

i got mine from Kelley's Korner Orchid Supplies 
MSU - Tap Water Special 19-4-23


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## Candace (Mar 23, 2007)

Ditto to Lance. And that reminds me I need to place my order this weekend as I'm starting to get low.


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## suss16 (Mar 23, 2007)

I think I got mine at First Rays... I do not use it all of the time. I still use dyna-grow 795/Ca-Mg fert mixture as much as I use MSU. And use RO water.

If you have not read the 5 part article written by Bill Argo, Phd. (2003 IPA journal) it provides a comprehensive overview of water, fert, substrate, ph etc. Don't laugh I review it weekly and recently started to do pour through tests. Still learning and tweaking.


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## Heather (Mar 23, 2007)

likespaphs said:


> i got mine from Kelley's Korner Orchid Supplies
> MSU - Tap Water Special 19-4-23



Me too.


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## eOrchids (Mar 23, 2007)

got mine at rePotme.com

13-3-15 8Ca-2Mg


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## phrag guy (Mar 23, 2007)

I get mine from Blackmore also,the R.O. one,I am sure it the same formula.


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## gore42 (Mar 23, 2007)

Got mine from orchidmix.com. The pure water formula is 12-6-13, the tap water formula is 17-9-18, the former with 7% Ca and the latter with 4%, and the tap water formula has no magnesium for some reason. I actually don't like how coarse this fertilizer is (takes longer to dissolve), so I'll probably get it from a different vendor next time.

-Matt


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## SlipperFan (Mar 24, 2007)

http://portersorchids.com/catalog_info.htm#Plant Food

Formulas are on that page.


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## paphreek (Mar 24, 2007)

I get mine from Blackmore, also.


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## DavidH (Mar 24, 2007)

I get mine from Fred Clarke at Sunset Valley Orchids. He uses a version the folks at MSU help design for water on the west coast.


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## TADD (Mar 24, 2007)

I got mine from..... Why am I not one of the cool kids????? I use free Dyna Gro 7-9-5.


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## Rick (Mar 24, 2007)

gore42 said:


> Got mine from orchidmix.com. The pure water formula is 12-6-13, the tap water formula is 17-9-18, the former with 7% Ca and the latter with 4%, and the tap water formula has no magnesium for some reason. I actually don't like how coarse this fertilizer is (takes longer to dissolve), so I'll probably get it from a different vendor next time.
> 
> -Matt



I also use orchidmix pure water from Robert's flower supply. The pure water formula dissolves well for me, especially when I add superthrive to it.


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## gonewild (Mar 25, 2007)

DavidH said:


> I get mine from Fred Clarke at Sunset Valley Orchids. He uses a version the folks at MSU help design for water on the west coast.



I don't see it listed on his website. Does he sell it retail?


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## Candace (Mar 25, 2007)

I wonder what's different about this west coast variety?


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## gonewild (Mar 25, 2007)

Candace said:


> I wonder what's different about this west coast variety?



That is what I would like to know also.


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## DavidH (Mar 25, 2007)

Fred worked with MSU to develop their fertilizer for the west coast region. I don't know the details, but Fred said the water on the west coast differs from the east coast (i don't know if it's PH related or something else). I do know the fertilizer works well from personal usage and it mixes well with my RO water.

I call Fred to place orders. You can email him and ask detailed info.


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## gonewild (Mar 25, 2007)

DavidH said:


> Fred worked with MSU to develop their fertilizer for the west coast region. I don't know the details, but Fred said the water on the west coast differs from the east coast (i don't know if it's PH related or something else). I do know the fertilizer works well from personal usage and it mixes well with my RO water.
> 
> I call Fred to place orders. You can email him and ask detailed info.



I sent Fred an email and gave him a link to this thread.


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## couscous74 (Mar 25, 2007)

I bought mine from First Ray's awhile back. I figured if I'm paying to ship a heavy box of clay rocks, they can ship an extra 5 pounds of fertilizer too.


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## gonewild (Mar 26, 2007)

I communicated with Fred Clarke at Sunset Valley Orchids about his MSU formula.

It is essentially the same as the one sold by First Rays, 13-3-15-8Ca-2Mg

Fred says they customized his formula to raise the pH about .5 over the normal formula. That sounds like a added benefit for slippers, but he gave no explanation how they did it and the label is exactly the same as far as I can tell.


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## DavidH (Mar 26, 2007)

Good details! I guess the biggest thing to consider is where you live and what's the cheapest shipping rate.


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## gonewild (Mar 26, 2007)

DavidH said:


> Good details! I guess the biggest thing to consider is where you live and what's the cheapest shipping rate.



Right, shipping fertilizer across the country can cost more than the fertilizer. I did not ask Fred, but I assume he only sells it in 25 pound bags. That may be too much for some people.


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## littlefrog (Mar 27, 2007)

gonewild said:


> Right, shipping fertilizer across the country can cost more than the fertilizer. I did not ask Fred, but I assume he only sells it in 25 pound bags. That may be too much for some people.



Yup... It is the shipping that kills you. Try to buy supplies (especially the heavy ones) locally. I don't sell the fertilizer online, but if you want to avoid shipping and can arrange to see me in person I'm always happy to bring some along. #25 bags, whatever you want. At most of the shows in our region somebody is selling it in smaller containers (Porters Orchids sells a lot, and a few other vendors), so I don't normally bring it.


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## NYEric (Mar 27, 2007)

While we have this thread, are you supposed to use MSU solo or as an additive to other fertilizer?


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## littlefrog (Mar 27, 2007)

By itself it is a complete fertilizer.


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## NYEric (Mar 27, 2007)

Thanx.


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## gonewild (Mar 27, 2007)

Yes, MSU is complete by itself. When you add it to other fertilizers or other fertilizers to it you change the balance between the nutrients. The MSU formula of nutrient ratios was found to be the most ideal for most orchids. 
Remember the ratio of each nutrient present in the water or media is what the plants depend on for optimum growth.

The MSU formulas are not new discoveries, they are very similar to what has always been used by commercial growers. MSU did tests and research to fine tune the formulas and publish the results based on their findings for use on orchids. In the past to get these ratios growers had to mix all the raw ingredients from scratch, now you can buy it prepared and ready to mix. Very simple to have a good fertilizer now days.


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## DavidH (Mar 29, 2007)

FYI. My 25 lb bag just arrived from Fred today. Shipping was $13.


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## gonewild (Mar 29, 2007)

DavidH said:


> FYI. My 25 lb bag just arrived from Fred today. Shipping was $13.



Where are you located?


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## DavidH (Mar 30, 2007)

I live in Tucson. He sent it via FedEx.


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## gonewild (Mar 30, 2007)

DavidH said:


> I live in Tucson. He sent it via FedEx.



Does it say anything on the bag label how it raises the pH higher than other MSU formulas?


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## DavidH (Mar 31, 2007)

No. It only has the mix ratio numbers in grams and ounces for the different Nitrogen ppms.


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## Ray (Mar 31, 2007)

I remember Bill Argo (Blackmore - the inventor) mentioning that a very few locales around the country needed a slight adjustment, but that's only true for the "well water" formula.

Pure is pure, no matter where you live. (Let's not get into the esoteric BS about the minuscule differences in pure water supples... They are irrelevant in our applications.)


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## gonewild (Mar 31, 2007)

Ray said:


> I remember Bill Argo (Blackmore - the inventor) mentioning that a very few locales around the country needed a slight adjustment, but that's only true for the "well water" formula.
> 
> Pure is pure, no matter where you live. (Let's not get into the esoteric BS about the minuscule differences in pure water supples... They are irrelevant in our applications.)



Ray, 
Does the RO process equalize all water to the same pH? 
Regardless of the pH of the source water?


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## DavidH (Mar 31, 2007)

Actually, based on experience PH varies based on the incoming water source. The PH from my RO water in the summer is 7.5. In the winter it is 8.0. This difference is also cited in the monthly water bill summary that lists the PH and various PPM's of the water sources in my area. With fertilizer, I run about 6.3 PH in the summer and 6.8 PH in the winter.


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## gonewild (Mar 31, 2007)

DavidH said:


> Actually, based on experience PH varies based on the incoming water source. The PH from my RO water in the summer is 7.5. In the winter it is 8.0. This difference is also cited in the monthly water bill summary that lists the PH and various PPM's of the water sources in my area. With fertilizer, I run about 6.3 PH in the summer and 6.8 PH in the winter.



Do you know what the pH of your incomming water is compared to what your RO outputs?


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## paphreek (Apr 1, 2007)

I'm interested in this question, also. Can the pH of R/O water vary? Intuitively, it would seem that once the dissolved solids are removed, that all R/O water should be close to 7.0, depending on the efficiency of the system. Am I wrong in this assumption?


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## IdahoOrchid (Apr 1, 2007)

Dang, where was it that I read that RO water was corrosive to metal pipes????? If RO water can have a ph of 7.5 or even 8 how can THAT be corrosive?


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## DavidH (Apr 1, 2007)

My RO water has an approximate 0.5 PH difference from the incoming tap water. It was almost a 1.0 PH difference when the RO water was deionized after going through the RO process, but I removed that process because it served no purpose and raised my PH higher. I use a digital PH/TDS/EC when I measure and occasionally check it against the testing solutions to verify accuracy. 

For further clarification, TDS on the incoming water is around 280-290 ppm. TDS on the output water is 16 ppm. My system consists of a sediment filter, two carbon filters (one granular and one carbon block), two 100 gpd RO membranes in parallel, and a final carbon filter (not really needed). I also have an aquatec pump raising the system pressure to 100 psi to speed up tank filling. The waste water feeds my desert plants in the backyard.

When I first started, I also thought pure water would neutralize the PH to 7.0. Experience has shown otherwise so I wasn't worried about the results (i.e. it's close enough). However, I did learn that if slime builds up on the inside of the tank (i.e. trash can), my PH rises a little more in the tank as compared to the water output from the system. The winter PH was the biggest surprise. I figure those 16 ppm must be having some effect.


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## kentuckiense (Apr 1, 2007)

IdahoOrchid said:


> Dang, where was it that I read that RO water was corrosive to metal pipes????? If RO water can have a ph of 7.5 or even 8 how can THAT be corrosive?



In Chemistry Lab, we got deionized water down to a pH of 5.5 simply by stirring it. The carbon dioxide in the air forms carbonic acid when mixed with the water.


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## Ray (Apr 1, 2007)

In theory, if 100% of the dissolved solids are removed by the RO membrane, no matter what the input, the output is totally pure water and will have a pH of 7.00000000000000000...

However, no membrane is 100% efficient, so there still will be some minuscule amount of dissolved solids that can affect the pH, and as kentuckiense mentioned, gases absorbed from the atmosphere can affect it as well.

The reason that pure water can be so corrosive is that it's unbuffered, so the slightest amount of dissolved solids can make it quite corrosive, if they acidify it. If they make the water more basic, your copper pipes are likely to build up a deposit of copper hydroxide.

My well water has a pH of 4.7 coming out of the ground, and we neutralize it by injecting potassium carbonate solution into the incoming stream. If I forget, I get pinholes in the copper piping, and if i overdo the concentration, I get nice blue-green copper hydroxide and carbonate deposits in the shower.


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## IdahoOrchid (Apr 1, 2007)

Thank you Ray, quite an understandable answer.


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## NYEric (Apr 2, 2007)

Ray said:


> My well water has a pH of 4.7 coming out of the ground, and we neutralize it by injecting potassium carbonate solution into the incoming stream. If I forget, I get pinholes in the copper piping, and if i overdo the concentration, I get nice blue-green copper hydroxide and carbonate deposits in the shower.


Cool you can grow stalactites !oke:


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## wallyworld (May 24, 2007)

Well, I use something alittle different. I have been using Peters Excel 15-5-15-Ca5-Mg2 with good success. I don't have anyone local that I can get the MSU fertilizer but this is pretty close. I switch with Dyna-Gro 7-9-5 off and on where the plants don't get use to it.


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## NYEric (May 25, 2007)

What does good success mean?


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## Corbin (Oct 20, 2007)

suss16 said:


> If you have not read the 5 part article written by Bill Argo, Phd. (2003 IPA journal) it provides a comprehensive overview of water, fert, substrate, ph etc. Don't laugh I review it weekly and recently started to do pour through tests. Still learning and tweaking.



Can this article be found on the web and if so where?


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## aquacorps (Oct 20, 2007)

Ray has them on his web site. http://www.firstrays.com/nutrition.htm


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## MoreWater (Oct 20, 2007)

I think I'm going to try MSU.... but which formulation should I get? Most of my plants get tap water pushed through a Brita filter (don't laugh! it works and is my only option right now) to reduce the solids a bit. The pleuros get distilled water from a bottle. I only want to buy one type of MSU, so I'm thinking I should get it for the tap (pleuros don't eat much and I don't have that many of them...) and hopefully some customizing can be done for using it with distilled...? 

And well and tap formulas - are they the same? They both seem to be 19-4-23.

Last question - does the stuff smell? I can't stand the smell of my bottle of cal-mag.....


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## NYEric (Oct 21, 2007)

I recently swtched to Orchid Ltd Green Jungle fert and wow! Smells like fertilizer! No really strong even 50% dilute from mixing instructions, stinky. Hopefully that's the secret to it's success.


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## goldenrose (Oct 21, 2007)

MoreWater said:


> I think I'm going to try MSU.... but which formulation should I get? And well and tap formulas - are they the same? They both seem to be 19-4-23.Last question - does the stuff smell? I can't stand the smell of my bottle of cal-mag.....



One would assume that because they offer different formulas, they are not the same. 19-4-23 doesn't have much to do with the quality of the water that you are adding the fertilizer to. Well/tap waters have a higher mineral content &/ TDS levels. Rainwater & RO doesn't - zilch, very low. If I took that formula & used it with well water, it might be too strong.
I've never detected a smell.
I think it's good to rotate brands of fertilizers, things change in nature, why shouldn't it for our plants too?


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## MoreWater (Oct 21, 2007)

Actually I was asking if well and tap formulas are the same. It seems websites offer either a well or a tap version, but not both.


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## jblanford (Oct 21, 2007)

I buy it in 25# bags for the BATAVIA OS, from Hilltop Orchids,13-3-15-8 Ca-2 Mg. I break into 1# bags and sell it to members, it's a great deal for them and makes a little money for the OS. Jim.


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## goldenrose (Oct 21, 2007)

MoreWater said:


> Actually I was asking if well and tap formulas are the same. It seems websites offer either a well or a tap version, but not both.


Yes I would say so.


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## SlipperFan (Oct 21, 2007)

goldenrose said:


> Yes I would say so.


Yes. Well water/tap water are both ground water, having minerals. Whereas rain/RO/distilled do not. That's why there are two different formulas.


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## Corbin (Oct 21, 2007)

aquacorps said:


> Ray has them on his web site. http://www.firstrays.com/nutrition.htm



Thanks:rollhappy:


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## SlipperFan (Oct 21, 2007)

So does Porter's Orchids. We carried them first!
http://portersorchids.com/catalog_info.htm#Plant Food


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## littlefrog (Oct 22, 2007)

The well water formula is based on MSU's well water, not yours! Or at least not necessarily yours. It usually works.


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## goldenrose (Oct 22, 2007)

littlefrog said:


> The well water formula is based on MSU's well water, not yours! Or at least not necessarily yours. It usually works.


REALLY good point! and not all rain water is the same either!


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## NYEric (Oct 22, 2007)

I believe that the OL Green Jungle fertilizer is actually making a difference in the couple of weeks I've been using it. It may be that it specifies 2 TABLESPOONS/gallon! But I think it really makes a diff and is MSU based.


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## Candace (Oct 22, 2007)

Eric, maybe you should start a new thread about the OL Jungle Fertilizer. I'd like to learn more about it.


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## NYEric (Oct 22, 2007)

If I had the bottle here I would post, but I got it after realizing how much thicker and stronger plants from Orchids Limited were; even compared to OZ. I should have taken photos but I believe my seedlings are reacting to the new fertilizer, I previously was using an MSU.


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## Corbin (Oct 22, 2007)

They seem to really push the Green Jungle. I almost bought that when I bought the Dyna-grow. I am interested in your experience with it, and everybody's else's for that matter.


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## NYEric (Oct 22, 2007)

I will take photos from now on.


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## MoreWater (Oct 22, 2007)

They don't give a lot of info on the website - can you get us some details?


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## SlipperFan (Oct 22, 2007)

littlefrog said:


> The well water formula is based on MSU's well water, not yours! Or at least not necessarily yours. It usually works.


And actually, the rain water formula is based on the rain in Lansing, MI.


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## NYEric (Oct 23, 2007)

cute!


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## NYEric (Oct 23, 2007)

MoreWater said:


> They don't give a lot of info on the website - can you get us some details?



Have you ordered any phrags from OL? I think phrags show the effect more because they're watered more than most other orchids.


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## Doug (Oct 26, 2007)

Question? For those using a MSU type fertilizer with tap or municipal water, which formula are you using, RO or well water? Thanks....


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## Candace (Oct 26, 2007)

Doug, Dot answered your question


> Yes. Well water/tap water are both ground water, having minerals. Whereas rain/RO/distilled do not. That's why there are two different formulas.



If you have typical well water/tap you'd use the well water/tap formula.


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## Corbin (Oct 31, 2007)

Does anybody know of a source for the MSU fertilizer in the southeast?


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## Shadow (Sep 21, 2008)

NYEric said:


> I will take photos from now on.



Hi, Eric. How is your experiment? Are you happy with your new fertiliser and is it better than MSU? I thought to try MSU, but I'll wait for an answer from you first.


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## NYEric (Sep 21, 2008)

I went with the Green Jungle fert. because that's what the best, strongest plants I have in my collection were raised in. I culturally can't tell if it's making a big difference than MSU. For all I know it is a liquid MSU, as I haven't checked out the ingredients. I'm just trying to get to a point where I can grow a good assortment of phrag hybrids. I apparently need to work on my maintenance because I still have a few issues w/ mealies and scale but at least I'm catching most of them. When I get the Merit 75 and apply it that will be the test of a product's effectiveness!


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## Shadow (Sep 21, 2008)

I do have OL plants, but I can't say they are the strongest from all I've got. From the other side, I don't have any phrag from them. May be their phrags are really different. Thanks for an answer, Eric.


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## Rick (Sep 21, 2008)

Corbin said:


> Does anybody know of a source for the MSU fertilizer in the southeast?



Ed
I just mail order mine from Roberts Flower Supply. Their website is www.orchidmix.com

$5 + shipping will keep you busy for quite a while.

Rick


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## Clark (Apr 19, 2010)

never had a problem with sneezing.


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