# Phal problem



## OrchidIsa (Apr 14, 2014)

Here are three of my last phals. I put all my others in the garbage (and so my oncidium papillio and my superb asco mikasa blue) because of something like that. Can somebody tell me what's the problem here and how can I solve this before all of them die??!

There is a bellina, a violacea HP Norton and a corningiana.


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## Hera (Apr 14, 2014)

I've been experiencing this with all of my phals and I've lost all 25 of them. No one has been able to pinpoint the cause. They tested negative for all the commonly tested viruses. The nearest we've come up with is some kind of microfungus but fungicides haven't stopped it either so basically I'm stumped and have written off phals from my collection. Maybe someone else will chime in with a different idea I haven't thought of. Sorry.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Apr 15, 2014)

Mesophyll cell collapse? I certainly wouldn't throw those plants out.


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## mormodes (Apr 15, 2014)

Hera said:


> I've been experiencing this with all of my phals and I've lost all 25 of them. No one has been able to pinpoint the cause. They tested negative for all the commonly tested viruses. The nearest we've come up with is some kind of microfungus but fungicides haven't stopped it either so basically I'm stumped and have written off phals from my collection. Maybe someone else will chime in with a different idea I haven't thought of. Sorry.



Ditto.


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## ALToronto (Apr 15, 2014)

Nearly all my phals are like that. I've only thrown away one, the rest are too valuable to me. I tend to lean toward mesophyll cell collapse, since my other orchids are not affected. It has been cold this winter. I'm hoping that their strong root systems will carry them through, and I'll try to keep them warmer next winter.


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## lepetitmartien (Apr 15, 2014)

*There's signs of deficiencies (chlorotic lines) => change the diet now*
You've got something around Ca, Mg, Zn… that is not at the level it should.

There's also brevipalpus the nasty acarian that can be gooning here… check


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## Wendy (Apr 15, 2014)

I lost most of my Phal collection to micro fungus years ago. It was horrible and not curable no matter how hard I tried. Here's a link to a great article on it...... http://www.orchidmall.com/general/microfun.htm It may or may not be what you have but an interesting read regardless.


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## OrchidIsa (Apr 15, 2014)

Thanks Wendy! I read it all. Very interesting! I'm devastated, just like my phals. I will see how it goes in a few weeks and maybe do just like you did: garbage :sob:


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## gonewild (Apr 15, 2014)

It looks Nutrient related to me.

Not likely fungal because of the interveinal chlorosis that has a specific pattern. 

Micro fungal is misleading because pretty much all fungal infections are micro.

What does a plant look like that is bad enough to throw away?

If this were an infectious disease affecting specifically phalaenopsis there should be a lot of mention of it within commercial growers and I don't see any.

Look at your nutrient levels for an answer, either a deficiency or toxicity.


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## lepetitmartien (Apr 15, 2014)

So called microfungus is misleading, it's (for me, given my winter adventures) brevipalpus + fungus associated + eventually if you're really lucky Orchid Fleck Virus (OFV). If only the 2 first are around, there's a chance.

I'm sure there's clearly a deficiency here, but the spots in the middle of some leaves are bothering me.


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## gonewild (Apr 15, 2014)

lepetitmartien said:


> but the spots in the middle of some leaves are bothering me.



The spots seem to be organized in "rows" following the veins. I think fungal would be more random.

Also there seems to be longitudinal color striping n the larger leaf.

Why are the leaf tips cut off?


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## lepetitmartien (Apr 15, 2014)

The stripping is on all leaves, save the brand new ones. That's for the defficiencies.

The line of spots in the gutter can be either a consequence of the deficiencies to a high level. Or the causeway of the acarians, fungis following them. Sometimes they follow a line, another time they colonize a patch… Depends of the mood.

Anyway, right now, what should be done first things first is a change to the feeding (advices?) and something against mites in case there's some. So that the urgent is covered imho.

Bring out the epsom salts!


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## ALToronto (Apr 16, 2014)

I've done 4 weekly sprays with SucraShield, which is supposed to kill mites, and the leaves keep degrading. So now I'll try adding more tap water for the minerals. I hope I can save them; some are in a really bad shape - my only hope would be a basal keiki. Does anyone have suggestions on how to start one?


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## lepetitmartien (Apr 16, 2014)

It's up to the phal to start one. You can't promote it.

How were you watering? Water and fert.

Btw I did a bit of homework, and microfungi exist (kept reading it didn't). It's a paraphyletic group of fungi causing sometimes plant diseases (mold, mildew, rusts, rice blast, elm disease, phytophtora, botrytis…), sometimes lifesavers (blue cheese, penicillium). Now to tell if what we cal microfungus is really one and which one…

ALToronto, sucrashield cares about the mites and soft body arthropods. It won't do one cent against a deficiency or a fungus or a virus. We're pretty adamant on the deficiency, just wondering about what's way not be one.


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## gonewild (Apr 16, 2014)

I sent the picture to a Phal producer in Taiwan and asked his opinion. This is his reply....

_"At first glance I thought that the plant might have a virus, but this would have to be tested.
It does look like a bacterial/fungal attack, which could be the result of water sitting on the leaves for too long overnight.

For now I would keep them away from all other plants to avoid spreading of any disease. 
Your friend should also wash his hands afterwards before touching other plants. I will pass your photo on to see what our growers think.

Species and primary hybrids are more susceptible, so they need a good temperature (not too hot, not too cold) and aeration."_

Let's see if any growers know what the problem is.

If anyone has pictures of the problem in a more advanced stage it would help.


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## OrchidIsa (Apr 16, 2014)

gonewild said:


> The spots seem to be organized in "rows" following the veins. I think fungal would be more random.
> 
> Also there seems to be longitudinal color striping n the larger leaf.
> 
> Why are the leaf tips cut off?



I cut the tips when the problem started. I thought maybe cutting where there was something weird helped not spreading the disease and put some cinnamon on the edges... I don't know if it was a good idea but wanted to try something


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## OrchidIsa (Apr 16, 2014)

Today's pictures:


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## lepetitmartien (Apr 16, 2014)

How old is the sphagnum? Is it Chile or NZ? If Chile, was it washed of salts?

The new leaves are clearly chlorotic too. And necrotic spots are clearly appearing to.


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## OrchidIsa (Apr 17, 2014)

lepetitmartien said:


> How old is the sphagnum? Is it Chile or NZ? If Chile, was it washed of salts?



The moss in only a few months old and it's NZ.


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## gonewild (Apr 17, 2014)

It seems a number of growers have or have had this problem. I tried searching other forums but all seem to have a dead end without any result.

There are several mentions about testing negative for virus. Does anyone know what viruses were tested for?

It seems perhaps only common viruses were targeted in the tests?
If this is a virus it certainly is not a common one so I'm changing my opinion from nutrient to viral infection.

From the time symptoms are first noticed until plant death...how much time?

Someone please post a picture of a plant that was thrown away because of this problem. What does a decomposing leaf look like/


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## Paphman910 (Apr 17, 2014)

How are the roots on them?


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## OrchidIsa (Apr 18, 2014)

There are plenty of healthy roots. The plants seem to continue growing normally.


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## lepetitmartien (Apr 19, 2014)

Usually people test for CyMV and ORSV, as it's the most common ones and there are rapid tests available from different sources. But there's 30+ viruses of concern in orchids, fortunately most are rare stuff, but one common has no rapid test and has only for a few years an ELISA available : OFV. It could be OFV but it's a wild guess without testing.

And there ARE deficiencies.


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## OrchidIsa (May 11, 2014)

Here are some other pictures (evolution of the problem)

The first one is to show the texture of the leaf.


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## gonewild (May 11, 2014)

That's ugly.
Close up it looks like a virus. Not one of the well know types that a simple test will determine.


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## Justin (May 11, 2014)

ugh i would incinerate or trash those now. start over with healthy plants and a different fertilizer regime.


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## Rick (May 11, 2014)

Anyone checking pH on pot drainage.

Could be iron or sulfate deficiency if pot pH has crept up to >7.

Epsom salts or epsom salt+ an iron supplement.

But check pH first.


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## Rick (May 11, 2014)

In general are all these phals in pots or any mounted?

I've seen more "deficiency" like problems in potted phals, especially using moss, and virtually no problems with mounted plants. Moss holds onto, and accumulates things more than other substrates. Especially metals (the " micronutrients" in our fert mixes)

What could be "deficiency" could actually be "toxicity".

Even if your substrate is only a few months old, I'd change it out for something more porous. Like big chunky bark. The closer you get to a mounted situation the better for phals.


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## Stone (May 11, 2014)

OrchidIsa said:


> Today's pictures:



The third picture here is almost certainly a virus.


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## Ozpaph (May 11, 2014)

I agree with Mike.


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## OrchidIsa (May 12, 2014)

This plant on the third picture is gone. Was put in the garbage a few weeks ago. From those three, only the bellina is remaining (I just posted pictures of the problem evolution)

I just bought another phal violacea HP Norton from the same prod that doesn't look good...


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## Justin (May 12, 2014)

try Big Leaf orchids if you want healthy phals with great breeding.


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## orcoholic (May 12, 2014)

This looks like overfertilization.

I've never seen anything like it on Phals so unless it's a new disease, I doubt it's fungal or viral. I get Phals from four different vendors each month and would think it would show up somewhere if it were fungal, viral, or some kind of new insect. I also grow about 500 Phals.

What intrigues me is so many growers on this site have or had the same problem that so many people have never seen before.

Overfertilization causes are mostly obvious, but since most of the growers are experienced I doubt it's because they used a lot more fert. on a consistent basis. 

My wildass guess is that it's a batch of bad potting media, that was loaded with salts and bought from the same vendor or, that a few vendors got potting media from the same outlet and then distributed it nationwide.

It's also interesting that none of the European growers and Australian growers have indicated they are having the same problem, or even seen the same problem.

If everyone having the problem would list where they got the medium that they planted the phals in, I hope that would solve the problem. If you have any of the medium left, soak it in water and see what the TDS or mS is after it soaks for a night.

Other possible reasons could be the K-lite regimen or watering with very low amounts of fertilizer (and starving the plant). I only say these because these have been adopted by so many growers on the site and the problem seems to be limited to growers on the site.


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## gonewild (May 12, 2014)

orcoholic said:


> > This looks like overfertilization.
> >
> > I've never seen anything like it on Phals so unless it's a new disease, I doubt it's fungal or viral. I get Phals from four different vendors each month and would think it would show up somewhere if it were fungal, viral, or some kind of new insect. I also grow about 500 Phals.
> >
> ...


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## Hera (May 12, 2014)

I've experienced this with several types of medium, several ferts and new and old medium. Once it starts its impossible to stop, antifungal sprays don't do anything to retard it and cutting off the affected leaves dosen't stop it.


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## gonewild (May 12, 2014)

Hera said:


> I've experienced this with several types of medium, several ferts and new and old medium. Once it starts its impossible to stop, antifungal sprays don't do anything to retard it and cutting off the affected leaves dosen't stop it.



Does it spread from plant to plant quickly or appear on many plants at the same time?
Is it only on Phals?


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## orcoholic (May 12, 2014)

1. I think the new virus theory gets ruled out because it would be more widespread by now, especially if the problem does go back at least a year. There are only a limited number of Phal producers these days so I believe we would see a lot more of it by now - unless all the affected plants were from a small breeder here in the US.

2. I never said all Sphagnum was affected. I said some, from one vendor, or from a group of vendors that sourced their moss from the same place may have been affected and loaded with salts.

3. I'm not aware of a lot of orchids, other than Phals, that are planted in Sphagnum - at least here in the US.

4. I agree there is no reason to associate the problem with K-Lite or low TDS use. It just seems that there are a lot of people on this site using these regimens and that may be the problem. Also, you don't know that the growers on other sites haven't gotten their moss from the same vendors that the growers on this site did.

5. To take commercial studies and use them a source of reference is useless. The commercial studies are produced for commercial growers with perfect conditions that never vary. No one reproduces those conditions outside of the huge commercial growers that spend a lot of money to create the conditions.

6. I deal with Taiwanese vendors every month. Someone would have said something if there is a new virus about.

I'm sticking with overfertilization or too much salts in the medium - especially since the first place the problem showed up was on the tips of the leaves - which were cut off.


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## gonewild (May 12, 2014)

orcoholic said:


> 1. I think the new virus theory gets ruled out because it would be more widespread by now, especially if the problem does go back at least a year. There are only a limited number of Phal producers these days so I believe we would see a lot more of it by now - unless all the affected plants were from a small breeder here in the US.



You make the assumption that if it is a virus it would have started in or be present in commercial production. It may very well be a virus that appeared in a private collection and is being passed from hobbyist to hobbyist.



> 2. I never said all Sphagnum was affected. I said some, from one vendor, or from a group of vendors that sourced their moss from the same place may have been affected and loaded with salts.



Of course anything is possible but it is highly unlikely that Sphagnum moss would come loaded with enough salts to kill entire collections of only one genera.



> 3. I'm not aware of a lot of orchids, other than Phals, that are planted in Sphagnum - at least here in the US.



You then will be surprised! many growers add sphag to their mixes for other genera.



> 4. I agree there is no reason to associate the problem with K-Lite or low TDS use. It just seems that there are a lot of people on this site using these regimens and that may be the problem. Also, you don't know that the growers on other sites haven't gotten their moss from the same vendors that the growers on this site did.



I think if you look at other forums and search this problem you will see that it predates the K-lite theory and use.


> 5. To take commercial studies and use them a source of reference is useless. The commercial studies are produced for commercial growers with perfect conditions that never vary. No one reproduces those conditions outside of the huge commercial growers that spend a lot of money to create the conditions.



Geez, I finally reference a research paper and now I'm told research papers are useless.....you sound like me. 



> 6. I deal with Taiwanese vendors every month. Someone would have said something if there is a new virus about.



Only if it were in Taiwan, which it apparently is not.



> I'm sticking with overfertilization or too much salts in the medium - especially since the first place the problem showed up was on the tips of the leaves - which were cut off.



Did you read post #34?
Where Hera said..
_"I've experienced this with several types of medium, several ferts and new and old medium. Once it starts its impossible to stop"_

That rules out contaminated sphagnum and nutrients.


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## Erythrone (May 12, 2014)

OrchidIsa doesn't use K-lite anyway. I know she uses MSU for pure water, 20-20-20 and 25 -10-10 for ochids in bark. I don't know about the strength of the solution for the plants growing on sphagnum.


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## Erythrone (May 12, 2014)

gonewild said:


> You then will be surprised! many growers add sphag to their mixes for other genera.



Right! I grow many genus on straight sphagnum.. or sometimes with perlite or Leca: Aerangis, Phrags, Masdies, Paphinia. Even a large complex Paph.

And think about the Neofinetias.... Almost everybody are growing them in sphagnum!


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## Hera (May 12, 2014)

gonewild said:


> Does it spread from plant to plant quickly or appear on many plants at the same time?
> Is it only on Phals?



Generally spread slowly but inevitably through my collection. No other genera seem to be affected.


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## gonewild (May 12, 2014)

Hera said:


> Generally spread slowly but inevitably through my collection. No other genera seem to be affected.



Since it spread through the collection and affected only Phals that lessens the probability it is nutrient related and continues to suggest viral.


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## Stone (May 13, 2014)

OrchidIsa!
A lot of opinions flying here! We would love to know whats causing it but I think you must provide detailed information about your growing conditions and techinique before we can zero in on the problem (if that is possible)

Temps, Humidity, Air movement?
Water temps, quantity and quality?
Fertilizer type?
Fertilizer strength?
Fertilizer frequency?
Are all the affected plants from the same source?
Have you noticed it developing on plants that were nice and healthy before?
If so, were they potted in sphag as well?

You mentioned no other genera were affected. What else are you growing?

BTW you definitly have/had a mite issue which would be the vector if it turns out to be virus. You can see small pitting on the leaves here and there.

In the end Phals are quite cheap and fast growing so it might pay to throw them all out and start again as somone suggested.


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## orcoholic (May 13, 2014)

All right. I agree. 

This has to be a brand new virus or fungus that was never seen before a year or so ago and hasn't been seen since a few months ago. It only affects the Phals of a few people, except for Hera whose every genera has been effected. Most likely it only effects orchids of growers that post on orchid forums since there hasn't been even a whisper of it anywhere else. 

Luckily, I guess everyone elses plants have some kind of genetic immunity to it.


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## gonewild (May 13, 2014)

orcoholic said:


> All right. I agree.
> 
> This has to be a brand new virus or fungus that was never seen before a year or so ago and hasn't been seen since a few months ago. It only affects the Phals of a few people, except for Hera whose every genera has been effected. Most likely it only effects orchids of growers that post on orchid forums since there hasn't been even a whisper of it anywhere else.
> 
> Luckily, I guess everyone elses plants have some kind of genetic immunity to it.



If you want to have valid meaningful sarcasm then at least read the posts you base your sarcasm on.
You wrote: _"except for Hera whose every genera has been effected"_
But that is 100% incorrect because Hera wrote :


> "No other genera seem to be affected."



No one here is insisting it is a virus but to some it seems that other possible causes have been mostly eliminated. 

It would be nice to have a peaceful and helpful discussion about the problem so let's try to be open minded and discuss and keep it factually accurate. If you have contacts you deal with in Taiwan send them the pictures and see what they say. I did and the first comment was that it looks like a virus but not one seen before. It would be great if the problem turned out to be a cultural issue but to many experienced growers have reported it. Some people refer to it as a microfungus and it could be but "microfungus" is a made up pathogen in this case.


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## Paphman910 (May 13, 2014)

A few of my Phals showed the same sympton as OrchidIsa. 

It turns out my plants were imported from Taiwan but I was having trouble with them because the roots were not adapted to my condition in moss. 
All the roots died and I got the same yellow streak and the plant looked virused.

Then I repotted in a mix of moss with perlite and roots started to grow.... again I had problems because my phals became bone dry in 2 days and it stunted the roots!

Now I repotted them back into moss and they are growing well with no problems!


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## gonewild (May 13, 2014)

Paphman910 said:


> A few of my Phals showed the same sympton as OrchidIsa.
> 
> It turns out my plants were imported from Taiwan but I was having trouble with them because the roots were not adapted to my condition in moss.
> All the roots died and I got the same yellow streak and the plant looked virused.
> ...



In post #22 OrchidIsa said....
_"There are plenty of healthy roots. The plants seem to continue growing normally."_


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## orcoholic (May 13, 2014)

You wrote: _"except for Hera whose every genera has been effected"_
But that is 100% incorrect because Hera wrote : You're right. Misread that.

No one here is insisting it is a virus but to some it seems that other possible causes have been mostly eliminated.

I probably misread your posts because I thought you were pretty convinced it was a new virus or fungus. On the other hand, I think everything but cultural causes have been eliminated.

If you have contacts you deal with in Taiwan send them the pictures and see what they say. [/QUOTE]

I would, but I have no idea how to send pictures. I'd post pics here if I knew how. I used to, but forgot. I'm an old dude.  I can't even figure out how to use the quotes from previous posts like you can. I can type because I took a typing course in High school on a manual typewriter so I could type essays because my teachers couldn't read my handwriting and my parents thought everyone should know how to type.

Here's why I came up the bad medium idea - and I'm not saying that's the cause. In my original post it was just put forth as a wildass guess.

Several years ago I bought a few bales of CHC from a vendor that swore it was washed three times. I was putting my Phrags into a mix made up mostly of CHC so I figured it would save me the washing time. (CHC needs to be soaked a few times before it can be used because of the amount of accumulated salts in it.) So, I used it and my phrags got black leaf tips and then the leaves started yellowing - just like OrchidIse pictures. 

When I repotted them, the roots were still nice and hard, albeit black and thin, but after repotting the plants grew fine new growths without any of the problems.

I also noticed that a couple growers experiencing the same problem were from the midwest and thought they may buy medium from the same vendor. One was from N. CA but, good medium is only purchasable at a show or through the mail, unless you're lucky enough to live near someone that sells it. In any case there are limited suppliers and there is a possibility that everyone purchased from one supplier.

Whether or not OrchidIse or the other forum members (or the members of other forums who may be the same posters as on this one that were just looking for some additional help) overfertilized or overwatered is way more likely, IMO, than a new virus or fungus - the possibilities of which (IMO) are tiny.

Everyone that ever grew orchids has overwatered and probably overfertilized to try to get the orchid to grow faster. To jump to a conclusion or suggest a probability that this is a new virus or fungus isn't supported by the symptoms and is extremely less likely. 

Where did the new virus or fungus come from? Did it just happen to mutate in a couple of collections? After more than a year, why hasn't it shown up in more collections? I can't figure out any answers to even those basic questions. Therefore, (IMO) a new virus can be dismissed unless the more logical reasons are eliminated first.

A bacteria that has dried up and is resolved is possible. The symptoms are more suitable, and since it spread through just the Phals, which I would assume were all close together is much more likely. But still not as likely as overwatering (which could cause a bacterial infection) or even overfertilizing.

Here's my theory on what happened. I don't know how to get back to the original post without losing everything I've typed, so am playing this out from memory.

The original plant was purchased after being in it's original pot too long or was left without being repotted for too long. It also could have been that it was repotted from something other than moss into moss - which I've heard kills the root system although never have actually experienced. Or, the orchid was overfertilized, overwatered, or put into bad moss. At any rate, the roots were somehow ruined, which in turn ruined the leaves. 

The reason there was some healthy roots when the plant was discarded 4 months later was because whatever caused the problem was stopped and the Phal started to put on new roots If it was put into bad moss the salts could have been washed out during the four months since repotting and getting rid of the orchid.

Now regarding another post (I really wish I could get back and quote it) about moss being mixed with other material, unless it was a major part of the mix, maybe there wasn't enough of it to effect the roots.

Regarding the neofenetia falcaltas, they are mostly done in a 5A grade of moss which may not have been effected (if it were a bad batch of moss),


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## gonewild (May 13, 2014)

orcoholic, email this link to your taiwan contact and it will open one of the pictures.... http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/834/u8h0.jpg

If you read through this whole thread you'll see that at first I said it was a nutritional problem. But after hearing how it appears basically only in Phals and how fast it spreads and it is fatal and it continues to progress while the plant is actually growing with healthy roots..... That makes me thing it is caused by a pathogen.
It does not respond to fungicide so may not be a fungus. the chlorosis resembles viral symptoms so that makes me suspect virus and that is where my thought is now. 
If you look close in some of the pictures you'll see active growing roots so I don't think the plant should die in a few weeks time because of "bad roots".
The leaves don't look limp and desiccated from lack of water.

The problems you describe with CHC are definitely a quality control issue. But CHC is produced in a sodium rich environment so it is easy to have a bad batch of fiber. But Sphagnum moss is produced from fresh water bogs where there is not salt contamination. 

To the point of if it's a new virus and where did it come from and why has it not spread faster.... Look at HIV, it started in one place and then slowly spread within a community and then spread quickly to the entire world. i'm no expert on viruses but I believe that a new virus can just appear as a mutant of another virus and spread from that point.


Maybe one of Monsantos genetic pets has escaped? 
Something strange is killing entire Phalaenopsis collections and someone needs to figure it out soon.


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## ALToronto (May 13, 2014)

I have this problem in phals from many different sources:

Big Leaf, purchased directly from Peter when he was in Toronto
Kingfisher Orchids in Canada, imported from Taiwan shortly prior to my purchase 
WalMart in Toronto, grown in Ontario, mass market noid
Lowes in Toronto, grown in Ontario, noid
No Frills (grocery store) in Toronto, grown in British Columbia, unlabeled wiganiae
Whole Foods in Toronto, had been growing well in original bark medium, declined once I potted it in lava rock.

Some of these plants have only pitting, and some have pitting and chlorosis. These conditions haven't prevented the phals from blooming - all of these are either currently in bloom or just finished blooming. All have lots of healthy looking roots. No signs of insects on any of them, but I sprayed them with SucraShield 4 weeks in a row just in case. The photos below were taken just after a spraying, in the bathtub. I'm dumbfounded.

Here are the worst affected phals


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## naoki (May 14, 2014)

Yours look quite different from Isa's. It is almost impossible to diagnose viral infection with eyeballs, but the one on the top with spots remind me something I saw in a recent paper (I might be remembering it wrong, though). This is the abstract of the paper:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10658-008-9281-6
It identified a novel virus class (new to Phals, a kind of potyvirus). Earlier, it was called Phalaenopsis chlorotic spot virus (PhCSV). I don't have the access to the full text of the paper. You can probably see the figures of this paper here:
http://www.springerimages.com/Images/LifeSciences/1-10.1007_s10658-008-9281-6-0

But if you google potyvirus, you can get this document with some photos:
http://hark-orchideen.com/CD/EN/Pflanzenschutz/Virosen/print.html
I don't know how accurate this document is, though.

But, if I were you, I'd try bunch of systemic and protectant fungicides in addition to Aspirin (it can't cure viral disease, but reduced viral transmission rate were observed in some virus and non-orchid plants). http://www.smokymtnorchidsociety.com/FungicidesandBactericidesforOrchidDiseases.pdf

Also, some of them don't look like the same symptom.


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## gonewild (May 14, 2014)

ALToronto said:


> I have this problem in phals from many different sources:



Did this start with one plant and then spread to the others?
If yes....
What was the source of the plant?
How quickly did other plants become infected (or afflicted)?

Are you using any kind of unusual fertilizer scheme?


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## gonewild (May 14, 2014)

naoki said:


> Yours look quite different from Isa's.
> 
> Also, some of them don't look like the same symptom.



Is it possible for the same pathogen to present differing symptoms under differing environmental and nutritional conditions?

There looks to be some similarity to Isa's plants in the advanced stage along the leaf center?


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## ALToronto (May 14, 2014)

gonewild said:


> Did this start with one plant and then spread to the others?
> If yes....
> What was the source of the plant?
> How quickly did other plants become infected (or afflicted)?
> ...



Naoki, thanks for the paper links. I shudder to think that it might be a virus.

The affected phals were in different locations. I had a group of 3 sitting together (bottom photo), then some distance away two more, then 3 others in a different room. The only commonality between them was the abrupt drop in temperature when winter arrived with a vengeance. 

Now that I think about it, temperature was probably the biggest factor. I hate air conditioning, so in the summer, the temp inside our house reaches 30 degrees, especially in the windows. And in the winter it pretty much stayed at 16-18. Humidity is 60% in the winter, 70-80% in the summer. Could it be that the phals got used to the heat and couldn't handle the cold? Am I better off running the air conditioning in the summer to avoid such huge temp swings between seasons? My husband would certainly appreciate it!

So could this be an extreme case of mesophyll cell collapse? The new leaves that have come out since these photos were taken and since the temp went up above 20 degrees are all perfect.


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## ALToronto (May 14, 2014)

My fertilizer regime is very little, every watering. I keep the N at 10-20 ppm and alternate between K-lite, Dyna-Gro Grow and Neptune's Harvest fish and seaweed, all with RO water. On rare occasion I will use Plant Prod 25-10-10 with 75-25% RO-tap water.

Some of the phals are in sphagnum and are watered weekly or so. Some are in lava rock and are watered daily.

Most significant - no other orchids are affected. Only the phals, and only the mature phals. Of the hundred or so seedlings I have, only about 5 plants are showing these symptoms, and they all experienced the same temp swings. They're also close to both groups of affected orchids on my main windowsill (the one in my avatar).


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## gonewild (May 14, 2014)

The temperature swings are within the range for Phals. The sudden drop in temps below 20c will induce flower spikes.

The fact you are seeing healthy new leaves is something to note.
When the problem appeared were new leaves affected right away or were the new leaves not deteriorating until they matured?

Nutritional suspect might be the seaweed, specifically the ammino acids and hormones they are adding.

That is one unknown chemical set that many people are adding to the K-lite regime of low potassium fertilizing. 

So growers that have or had this problem.... Are you using seaweed or other products with the amino acids/hormone content?

What effect does an excess of amino acid have on Phals?


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## orcoholic (May 14, 2014)

ALToronto said:


> The photos below were taken just after a spraying, in the bathtub. I'm dumbfounded.



Did they look this bad before spraying? This looks like a chemical burn - almost like an oil based spray put on and then plants put in sun.


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## orcoholic (May 14, 2014)

Had to go to one of the Taiwanese growers today and took my laptop so he could see pics. He looked and looked and then said "I don't know".

Thanks for the link Lance . He's sending it to his company in Taiwan to see if they can help.


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## ALToronto (May 14, 2014)

orcoholic said:


> Did they look this bad before spraying? This looks like a chemical burn - almost like an oil based spray put on and then plants put in sun.



Yes, they looked this bad before spraying. I'm using SucraShield, diluted as per label directions. I use it on all my plants with no problems. Prior to SS I had been using a sulphur spray, but stopped due to the muddy residue. I've used sulphur powder straight with no issues.


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## orcoholic (May 15, 2014)

ALToronto said:


> Yes, they looked this bad before spraying. I'm using SucraShield, diluted as per label directions. I use it on all my plants with no problems. Prior to SS I had been using a sulphur spray, but stopped due to the muddy residue. I've used sulphur powder straight with no issues.



Is sucrashield rated for mites? Pitting could be from them. 

Is the shiny, sappy looking stuff on the leaves always there, or a result of recently spraying with ss?


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## ALToronto (May 15, 2014)

Yes, they're wet from the SS, and it's rated for mites. I checked for mites very closely but couldn't find any signs of them. My first reaction was insects, but then why wouldn't they eat the cattleyas that are touching leaves with these phals? I think something else is in play here.


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## orcoholic (May 15, 2014)

The roots look good, but i've never seen leaves so devastated as those w/o something like overexposure (and a lot of overexposure) to sun or a bad freeze - and it doesn't look like that as the leaves turn black after freezing.

Suggest throwing out anything that looks like them - especially if it spreads.


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## Rick (May 19, 2014)

Moss versus bark versus rock.

I have most of mine mounted, and even if still in a pot, encourage roots to go aerial.

Moss starts low salt, but accumulates fertilizer elements (including trace metals) very quickly. You need to fertilize at very low rates or very small application amounts to keep moss from turning into a high concentration mess after just a handful of fert applications. Also dry conditions accelerate this even more since salts/metals are left behind after the water evaporates from the media.

Also moss develops bacterial colonies quickly that generate very low pH conditions when nitrogen applications are >10ppm (especially with ammonia or urea base). Once the pH drops <<5.0 -4.0 then start looking for nutrient deficiencies even though you may be plowing even more fert into the pot. Death spiral.

Rock or mounting eliminates the complication of moss based pot chemistry, but then you have to water every day.

I use moss in limited applications (and almost never with Phals anymore), but these days limit feed rates to under 10ppm N with a nitrate based feed (k lite). Otherwise be prepared to change the moss every couple of months.

Beyond that consider disease issues, and look at Naoki's papers on use of asprin, but plants do have immune systems, so try to figure what may be the cause of low immunity letting disease take hold. Those trace metals are potent toxicants when they aren't in trace amounts.


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## Rick (May 19, 2014)

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...79j9iIKeqjAXuZDY5eViBHw&bvm=bv.67229260,d.b2U

Here's a big complex paper on metal toxicity. Just skimming saw some interesting comparisons between issues with solution based applications (no or limited media effects) or media based applications.

Also to consider are potential changes with base irrigation water. Unless working strictly off of RO/distilled water, is your irrigation water going through copper plumbing? Are you on an iron/manganese rich well water? Did your drinking plant just up the aluminum dose for water treatment?


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## Rick (May 19, 2014)

http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/88/61/01/PDF/hal-00886101.pdf

Aluminum looks pretty bad, and can pop up in surface/drinking waters fairly readily.

It looks like it causes lots of deficiencies that look like everything we've discussed.


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## Rick (May 20, 2014)

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.23...2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21104044306577

YIKES!


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## Erythrone (May 21, 2014)

Rick, I am very concerned about the "quality" of her water. She now uses reverse osmose system for purifying the well water. Analysis of the well water before treatment is very bad. I remember there was a lot of Na. Don't remember about Fe, Al or Cu. She told me there is methane on it a few days ago. 

I think an analysis of the RO water could be useful.


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## Rick (May 21, 2014)

Erythrone said:


> Rick, I am very concerned about the "quality" of her water. She now uses reverse osmose system for purifying the well water. Analysis of the well water before treatment is very bad. I remember there was a lot of Na. Don't remember about Fe, Al or Cu. She told me there is methane on it a few days ago.
> 
> I think an analysis of the RO water could be useful.



How long ago did she start with RO?

Was it a brand new home system or broke in?

I never set up my own personal home system (it's still sitting in the box), but in the directions it mentioned a biocide with brand new membranes that needed to be flushed out before use. (I steal all my water from a monster DI system at work).

Also if she's been using the system for some time, the system may be to the point where quality has declined significantly (as you may be eluding too).


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## ALToronto (May 22, 2014)

You're supposed to discard the first 5 gallons (I dumped it on my outdoor plants). Initially, my RO water was reading 12-13 ppm TDS, now it reads about 7. I guess anything biological wouldn't register, but the water tastes just fine and makes great tea and coffee. 

There is really not much to setting it up, as long as you have room for all the equipment under your sink. We didn't, so we had a more complex installation in a basement closet, directly under the kitchen sink. We had to buy extra tubing, as well as a proper valve for the water supply line - I will never use a puncturing needle valve. Took about an hour, not counting the trip to Home Despot.


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## Rick (May 22, 2014)

ALToronto said:


> You're supposed to discard the first 5 gallons (I dumped it on my outdoor plants). Initially, my RO water was reading 12-13 ppm TDS, now it reads about 7.



Sounds like it's running just fine. How long ago did you start using your RO system?


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## OrchidIsa (May 24, 2014)

Rick said:


> How long ago did she start with RO?
> 
> Was it a brand new home system or broke in?
> 
> ...



Hi! I'm back after a week (or so) of PC problems.

I'm using RO water since last November. It's a brand new system we installed at that time. I flushed the system, as we were told to do. We've been told to change the cartridges and membrane once a year (2 years for the membrane I think). The water been tested before the installation to know which system was the best choice. I've had the water tested again after passing through the system, to know how well it was working. I've been told there was only 21 tds in the treated water. Since there was 202 mg/L of Na, now with total TDS, I think the water is almost pure. Yes, I've been told that there is methane in the water but I can't find anything on the web saying it's a problem for plants... I'm going to ask elsewhere to see if someone knows if it can cause problems to orchids.


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## OrchidIsa (May 24, 2014)

Rick said:


> Anyone checking pH on pot drainage.
> 
> Could be iron or sulfate deficiency if pot pH has crept up to >7.
> 
> ...



The PH of the treated water seems to be higher than 7. Ery told me she finds those results a bit weird.

I'll run some new tests and have my water tested by a lab soon.


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## OrchidIsa (May 24, 2014)

Rick said:


> In general are all these phals in pots or any mounted?
> 
> I've seen more "deficiency" like problems in potted phals, especially using moss, and virtually no problems with mounted plants. Moss holds onto, and accumulates things more than other substrates. Especially metals (the " micronutrients" in our fert mixes)
> 
> ...



This bellina is in a big bark pot. I'll repot it since it's more than a year old now. We'll see...


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## OrchidIsa (May 24, 2014)

Stone said:


> OrchidIsa!
> A lot of opinions flying here! We would love to know whats causing it but I think you must provide detailed information about your growing conditions and techinique before we can zero in on the problem (if that is possible)
> 
> Temps, Humidity, Air movement?
> ...



So:

Temps: to high hahahaha! Plants were in my large room that is going to 18C at night to 40C when it's sunny.

Last fall, there was a serious lack of ventilation in that room and so, I had big problems with rot in phrags, coelogyne, and phals began to get those spots. I had/have a mite problem too, that's not a secret. Since, I put a large fan in the room so there is a good air movement (and got 95% of my plants out of the room).

Fertilizer: I was using MSU, 20-20-20 and 25-10-10, each one week and then, a week of pure water. Before using RO, I was using rain water. Concentration: between 75 and 100 ppm N/ 4 liters

The plants are all from different places. 

Majority of phals were in bark. They were all healthy before those problems began last fall. They were almost all put in garbage. For now, only the bellina remains.

In that same area, I was growing paphs, phrags, a coelogyne, masdies, a dendro and stanhopeas.


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## Rick (May 25, 2014)

40C is really high.

Any idea of humidity %.


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## ALToronto (May 26, 2014)

Would it be advisable to mount a distressed phal? I've tried mounting distressed cattleyas, with about a 75% success rate. I'm tempted to put my phals (which are all growing perfect new leaves) on one of my living walls. I have other phals on them, but they haven't attached yet.


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## ALToronto (May 26, 2014)

OrchidIsa said:


> The PH of the treated water seems to be higher than 7. Ery told me she finds those results a bit weird.
> 
> I'll run some new tests and have my water tested by a lab soon.



I also have high pH of my RO water. At such low tds, it's very easy to unbalance the pH in either direction. If you breathe on a water sample while taking a reading, you can watch the pH plummet from the carbonic acid formed by the CO2 in your breath.


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## OrchidIsa (May 26, 2014)

Rick said:


> 40C is really high.
> 
> Any idea of humidity %.



Oh, wow. Totally forgot to mention that. When temp goes that hi, the humidity goes as low as 35%. I have a humidifier but it can't stabilize humidity at a good rate. When it's not that hot, I can keep the room at 50-55%. It's a living room so I don't want the humidity to be very high.


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## Rick (May 26, 2014)

OrchidIsa said:


> Oh, wow. Totally forgot to mention that. When temp goes that hi, the humidity goes as low as 35%. I have a humidifier but it can't stabilize humidity at a good rate. When it's not that hot, I can keep the room at 50-55%. It's a living room so I don't want the humidity to be very high.



Wow I would characterize 100F and 35%RH as brutal for phalaes.

If the light is decent I can see Catts doing ok but not Phalaes.

I don't think we need to discuss nutrition until the basic environmental conditions are under control


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## orcoholic (May 26, 2014)

ALToronto said:


> I also have high pH of my RO water. At such low tds, it's very easy to unbalance the pH in either direction. If you breathe on a water sample while taking a reading, you can watch the pH plummet from the carbonic acid formed by the CO2 in your breath.



Adding fertilizer to RO water can also drastically change the Ph. Would adding some tap water help stabalize the Ph? 

I mix in some well water with my RO water and then add fertilizer, or whatever I want to add, and bring the Ec up to 1. The Ph is adjusted to about 6.5. 

This works well for a very mixed collection, including recently unflasked seedlings, Pleuros, Phrags, Phals, Catts, Vandas, Paphs, Dens and others. Come to think of it, I never met an orchid I didn't like.


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## OrchidIsa (May 26, 2014)

Rick said:


> Wow I would characterize 100F and 35%RH as brutal for phalaes.
> 
> If the light is decent I can see Catts doing ok but not Phalaes.
> 
> I don't think we need to discuss nutrition until the basic environmental conditions are under control



Now that the plants are relocated in my office, they don't have all those drastic changes and things are going well. For a few years, I didn't have problems with plants in that room (even with phals), even if the environment was that awful. But the lack of sun (so more humidity) and lack of air movement last fall didn't help and problems appeared and spread. I know my ways of culture are not perfect (ohhhh I know!!) but I wasn't having problems like that before fall.


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