# Cypripedium subtropicum



## Hakone (Dec 20, 2019)

* 
from the friend in his garden[URL='https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003843145510'] ( Xuân Sinh )[/URL]*


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## mrhappyrotter (Dec 20, 2019)

Awesome! Thanks for sharing these. Really nice to see something so unusual.


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## abax (Dec 20, 2019)

What a treat to see such outstanding Cyps. Where
is this marvelous garden?


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## Hakone (Dec 21, 2019)

Lai Chau , North Viet Nam


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## likespaphs (Dec 21, 2019)

wow!


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## KyushuCalanthe (Jan 6, 2020)

Neat to see the previous year's leaves still intact. This species truly is unique. Do you know how long these have been in cultivation? Wenqing Perner offered seedlings this year for sale and I was really tempted to try a few, but I've heard they are nearly "impossible" to grow.


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## TropiCool (Jan 8, 2020)

Wow! This is definitely on my wish list, but virtually impossible to source here in the EU. And starting with seedlings seems a death wish. I'd even be delighted with fresh pollen!


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## Berthold (Jan 8, 2020)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> Neat to see the previous year's leaves still intact. This species truly is unique. Do you know how long these have been in cultivation? Wenqing Perner offered seedlings this year for sale and I was really tempted to try a few, but I've heard they are nearly "impossible" to grow.



I tried a lot of seedlings and adult plants too.They need the original mycorrhiza substrate from North Vietnam or connecting China. Otherwise they rot quickly. Or You can grow them sterile in containers.


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## NYEric (Jan 8, 2020)

These are impossible to grow here. Might be a collected specimen. Super-nice though. thanks for sharing.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Jan 8, 2020)

Berthold said:


> I tried a lot of seedlings and adult plants too.They need the original mycorrhiza substrate from North Vietnam or connecting China. Otherwise they rot quickly. Or You can grow them sterile in containers.



Hey Berthold, that was my suspicion. All the ones I've seen or heard of in cultivation were wild collected or recently deflasked seedlings. None that I know of survived. Too bad it is relatively simple to germinate, but not simple to grow. Hopefully cultivated specimens in its native homelands will grow successfully, and more importantly that a few hang on in some remote valley. Have the fungal symbionts been identified?


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## Berthold (Jan 8, 2020)

Tom, I don`t think that the symbiont has been identified.


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## Steve G (Jan 22, 2020)

It is currently being offered for sale as 3 year post-flask young plants for £30 ($40) on eBay UK. This same seller probably operates under a number of names on eBay.co.uk and is currently selling an amazing array of rare, dwarf Cypripedium species (or selected alba forms) as well as a number of choice Paphs at seemingly reasonable prices. Unfortunately these too good to be true offers are fraudulent scams. The plants are sold as cultivated European stock (not from wild) and that part is true. The rare Paphs are common cheap hybrids whilst the rare dwarf Cyps are young lab-grown Cyp. calceolus seedlings.

I suspect that this seller is currently active under the names: “begoniaceae67, “war-3971” and “paphphrags”. Take the name begoniaceae67 and check the last 5 *purchases *made by this “seller”. They are from a reputable seller of young in-vitro raised orchids. These purchases were for fifty young Cypripedium calceolus plants described by the seller as: “10 mehrtriebige XXL Jungpflanzen, mindestens 20 Sprosse” =10 multi-shoot XXL young plants, at least 20 shoots. I am not for a second suggesting that the german source of these Cyp. calceolus seedlings (who sells on eBay.de) is anything other than reputable. However, these robust cyp. seedlings purchased for 3euros each are then being passed on as dwarf cyp. species and sold on for £25-£50+ by our many-named seller. The irony is that the buyer will receive a smallish robust healthy-looking cyp. rhizome with numerous pristine white roots and perhaps 2 or 3 noses -prompting positive feedback. Only after one or more seasons of growth will the scam become apparent by which time the option of raising a dispute through eBay or Paypal has long gone as has the chance of leaving a negative review.

Strangely this seller (under the various names) seems to be based in Germany (though one of the names is also linked to Brussels) and offers Worldwide delivery with the exclusion of Germany. The seller paphphrags (until very recently greenhousetropicals) is definitely Kai Najda who I believe was investigated for online fraud by the German prosecution service a few years ago. Perhaps some of our German members have knowledge of this? 

I complained to eBay but they did nothing. I suspect that the seller convinced eBay that my complaint was driven by malice. I tried to purchase some of this seller’s material to have it tested. I bought Cyp. wardi (through my wife’s eBay account -Kai Najda had blocked my account after my first complaint to eBay) but after 45 days received nothing. I raised a dispute through eBay and hoped that I could highlight this seller’s practices to eBay but although I was refunded they closed the dispute without any further dialogue. I chose Cyp. wardii as I currently have lab-raised material of this species for comparison -it looks different to young Cyp calceolus. Last year I saw a “large multi-nosed Cyp. wardii” rhizome sold by this vendor which looked to me to be a monster calceolus seedling that had been exposed to too much hormone in-vitro; it bore no resemblance to the long, delicate rhizome of an adult Cyp. wardii plant.


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## Berthold (Jan 22, 2020)

Steve G said:


> It is currently being offered for sale as 3 year post-flask young plants for £30 ($40) on eBay UK. This same seller probably operates under a number of names on eBay.co.uk and is currently selling an amazing array of rare, dwarf Cypripedium species (or selected alba forms) as well as a number of choice Paphs at seemingly reasonable prices. Unfortunately these too good to be true offers are fraudulent scams. The plants are sold as cultivated European stock (not from wild) and that part is true. The rare Paphs are common cheap hybrids whilst the rare dwarf Cyps are young lab-grown Cyp. calceolus seedlings.
> 
> I suspect that this seller is currently active under the names: “begoniaceae67, “war-3971” and “paphphrags”. Take the name begoniaceae67 and check the last 5 *purchases *made by this “seller”. They are from a reputable seller of young in-vitro raised orchids. These purchases were for fifty young Cypripedium calceolus plants described by the seller as: “10 mehrtriebige XXL Jungpflanzen, mindestens 20 Sprosse” =10 multi-shoot XXL young plants, at least 20 shoots. I am not for a second suggesting that the german source of these Cyp. calceolus seedlings (who sells on eBay.de) is anything other than reputable. However, these robust cyp. seedlings purchased for 3euros each are then being passed on as dwarf cyp. species and sold on for £25-£50+ by our many-named seller. The irony is that the buyer will receive a smallish robust healthy-looking cyp. rhizome with numerous pristine white roots and perhaps 2 or 3 noses -prompting positive feedback. Only after one or more seasons of growth will the scam become apparent by which time the option of raising a dispute through eBay or Paypal has long gone as has the chance of leaving a negative review.
> 
> ...



Be carful please.

We know this seller under following names
cakai2012
Calcagnile1981
2013rainforest
bellaxxx2011
cariati.1960
choicexxx
crazy.toni
deliciosum
dendro-fan
ladyultraviolett
leila-guitar
missviolett09
o-seven-eleven
papua-orchids
*leverage*
alpenjodel.13
baerbelde
insectosyplantas
ka_calca
eastside-orchids, als Standort wurde Fellbach angegeben
botanicalsandmore2011
rare-vivarium*terrarium-specials
tropicalfactory
begoniaceae67 (vermutlich, nicht gesichert)
kahacksc-0

The German Public Prosecutor's Office has investigated him


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## Steve G (Jan 22, 2020)

“The German Public Prosecutor's Office has investigated him”

Is that the reason why this scammer doesn’t sell in Germany?


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## Berthold (Jan 22, 2020)

Sure, Steve. His operation base is Fellbach near Stuttgart/Germany.
He is under observation by the public prosecutor and police in Germany


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## Don I (Jan 22, 2020)

Thanks.
Don


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## Hakone (Jan 23, 2020)

Cyp. wardii ?


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## KyushuCalanthe (Jan 23, 2020)

Yes, they are! In Germany?


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## Hakone (Jan 24, 2020)

Yes Sir .


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## Alex (Jan 25, 2020)

Hakone said:


> Yes Sir .


Wonderful. It seems they are outside - can you share any more information about their growing conditions? Temperatures Summer and Winter? Any extra watering or overhead protection?

alex


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## Berthold (Feb 1, 2020)

Alex said:


> Wonderful. It seems they are outside - can you share any more information about their growing conditions? Temperatures Summer and Winter? Any extra watering or overhead protection?
> 
> alex



Sorry, I think these data are not available.


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## Hakone (Feb 6, 2020)

very difficult to plant, no success.


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## BrucherT (Feb 6, 2020)

Hakone said:


> very difficult to plant, no success.


Are you saying these specimens died on him....


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## Hakone (Feb 7, 2020)

Yes


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## dodidoki (Mar 7, 2020)

Hakone said:


> Yes


Damn...breeding has been succesful by Albiflora but all of plants died within few weeks out from flaks.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Mar 7, 2020)

Getting confused by which species we are talking about now, subtropicum or wardii? 

As far as I know, nobody has been successful growing either adult wild collected specimens of subtropicum, nor seedlings once deflasked. Everyone I know who has tried has failed. As for wardii, I know of a few people who have grown these on in their gardens for a number of years, but I'm unsure of their long term fate. I saw two plants growing at Hengduan Biotech's Cyp nursery in Huanglong, but I'm not sure what happened to those plants either. Certainly not an easy species to grow.


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## dodidoki (Mar 7, 2020)

I talked about subtropicum.


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## Berthold (Mar 7, 2020)

dodidoki said:


> Damn...breeding has been successful by Albiflora but all of plants died within few weeks out from flaks.



You can keep it running in a sterile surrounding, but that is a big job. Otherwise You need the original mycorrhizal fungi and You have to keep it alive. 
But I think it is not yet tested. Who pays for that?


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## TropiCool (Mar 8, 2020)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> Getting confused by which species we are talking about now, subtropicum or wardii?
> 
> As far as I know, nobody has been successful growing either adult wild collected specimens of subtropicum, nor seedlings once deflasked. Everyone I know who has tried has failed. As for wardii, I know of a few people who have grown these on in their gardens for a number of years, but I'm unsure of their long term fate. I saw two plants growing at Hengduan Biotech's Cyp nursery in Huanglong, but I'm not sure what happened to those plants either. Certainly not an easy species to grow.


I wonder if anyone has tried using subtropicum pollen in crosses w/ other spp?


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## Berthold (Mar 8, 2020)

TropiCool said:


> I wonder if anyone has tried using subtropicum pollen in crosses w/ other spp?


subtropicum pollen on wardii should work. But it can be difficult to get subtropicum pollen in China at the moment due to corona restrictions. You should have a look in norther Vietnam for that in the next 3 month.


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## Hakone (Mar 16, 2020)

You can buy adults plant from North Viet Nam or seedling ( deflasked Size ) from Germany


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## Berthold (Mar 16, 2020)

Hakone said:


> You can buy adults plant from North Viet Nam or seedling from Germany


But that will not help You.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Mar 16, 2020)

This is not aimed at anyone in particular, however, please do NOT buy any adult plants of this species no matter where you get them from. ALL are wild collected, and at this rate the species will extinct not only in the wild, but everywhere since nobody is growing it successfully long term outside its native range. One thing I cannot back up with direct information is whether folks in either China or Vietnam are growing them successfully. I sincerely doubt all but a few are, and again there is no clear evidence of it. Needless to say, buying plants online via all the usual auction platforms is the surest way to help drive this species into extinction. Please don't.


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## Hakone (Mar 16, 2020)

If you don't buy the plants, they will be thrown away after 1 month.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Mar 16, 2020)

Yes, let's devour the world before it spoils.


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## Hakone (Mar 16, 2020)

And the result ?


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## Berthold (Mar 17, 2020)

Hakone said:


> And the result ?


What you are showing here is a serious violation of international laws and rules.
But in this regard, the Vietnamese seem to be completely painless and only looking for additional income.


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## Hakone (Mar 17, 2020)

it will be installed to find a substrate for subtropicum.
It is a cohort study, seeling and adults in the same soil

Photo is from nursery in Nothr Viet Nam . " You need the original mycorrhizal fungi " 
who said ?. Does he have *evidence* or is it just a guess


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## Berthold (Mar 17, 2020)

Hakone said:


> it will be installed to find a substrate for subtropicum.
> It is a cohort study, seeling and adults in the same soil



Who should believe that?


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## Berthold (Mar 18, 2020)

Hakone said:


> You can buy adults plant from North Viet Nam or seedling ( deflasked Size ) from Germany


What is the price for these plants. I guess selling is illegal, but Vietnamese don't care.
Hakone, can You smuggle the plant to Germany?
What is Your personel profit?


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## Hakone (Mar 18, 2020)

stupid question !
You fly there, go to the nursery and buy the plants . It's that easy.
@ Berthold
I hope here a civilized and sophisticated conversation with you. Do you understand


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## BrucherT (Mar 18, 2020)

Hakone said:


> If you don't buy the plants, they will be thrown away after 1 month.


If you do buy the plants, you create a market for the plants. Stop.


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## BrucherT (Mar 18, 2020)

Hakone said:


> stupid question !
> You fly there, go to the nursery and buy the plants . It's that easy.
> @ Berthold
> I hope here a civilized and sophisticated conversation with you. Do you understand


And then get arrested and jailed for breaking CITES laws which, though imperfect, are there to protect these and other plants.


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## BrucherT (Mar 18, 2020)

Berthold said:


> What you are showing here is a serious violation of international laws and rules.
> But in this regard, the Vietnamese seem to be completely painless and only looking for additional income.


I agree with you but I cannot vilify poor Vietnamese collectors. It is we should create this market who are to blame.


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## Hakone (Mar 18, 2020)

BrucherT said:


> If you do buy the plants, you create a market for the plants. Stop.



They sell on the side of the road. You go past, after 3 days throw them in the trash can. The process will be repeated next year...


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## Hakone (Mar 18, 2020)

BrucherT said:


> And then get arrested and jailed for breaking CITES laws which, though imperfect, are there to protect these and other plants.




Selling and buying within Vietnam is allowed. Bringing abroad is your problem


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## Berthold (Mar 18, 2020)

Hakone said:


> stupid question !
> You fly there, go to the nursery and buy the plants . It's that easy.
> @ Berthold
> I hope here a civilized and sophisticated conversation with you. Do you understand



I am not interested in illegal business, I am not a vietnamese.


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## Berthold (Mar 18, 2020)

Hakone said:


> Selling and buying within Vietnam is allowed.


I think, that is not true


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## Hakone (Mar 18, 2020)

I do not understand what you're saying. *I don't sell any plants. *
I say:" If you want to buy the plants, fly to Vietnam. Do you have money for the flight, Mr German? "


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## Berthold (Mar 18, 2020)

Hakone said:


> I do not understand what you're saying.


Sorry, I can't help You.
I'm sure everyone else here on the forum will understand what I said.


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## Berthold (Mar 19, 2020)

Hakone said:


> Selling and buying within Vietnam is allowed. Bringing abroad is your problem


Hakone is lying. Vietnam is an active CITES member. CITES prohibits the free trade with CITES products.

What is a liar doing in this forum?


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## Hakone (Mar 19, 2020)

You have a lot of fantasies.

The nursery make flaske



Berthold , do you have money for the flightn to Viet Nam ?

Chau Nguyen Nursery in Zentral Viet Nam


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## Berthold (Mar 19, 2020)

Hakone said:


> The nursery make flaske



We are talking about illegal deal with Cypripedium subtropicum not about a nursery producing orchid seedlings of common orchid species like thousand of orchid nurseries around the world do.


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## Hakone (Mar 19, 2020)

You fantasize a lot.
Your perception has a big problem. You can buying Seedlings of cypripedium subtropicum . But have you money , you don't get as a gift


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## BrucherT (Mar 20, 2020)

Hakone said:


> They sell on the side of the road. You go past, after 3 days throw them in the trash can. The process will be repeated next year...


“The process,” as you call it, will stop when you stop buying the plants. You created the market. You perpetuate it.


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## Hakone (Mar 20, 2020)

if you don't buy, buy the natives Vietnamese


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## Hakone (Mar 22, 2020)

TropiCool said:


> Wow! This is definitely on my wish list, but virtually impossible to source here in the EU. And starting with seedlings seems a death wish. I'd even be delighted with fresh pollen!



You can buy from albiflora.be 

https://www.albiflora.be/files/docs/pricelist_1.pdf?v=1584912776


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## Berthold (Mar 23, 2020)

Hakone said:


> You can buy from albiflora.be



No, albiflora doesn't sell pollen or seed


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## Hakone (Mar 23, 2020)

Do you have any Liste from albiflora ?


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## Berthold (Mar 23, 2020)

Yes, all list and good personal contact.


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## Hakone (Mar 23, 2020)

Cypripedium subtropicum singchii ( the father from Ms Chenyi from Peking )


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## Hakone (Mar 28, 2020)

sutropicum is sprouting now , Thai Nguyen ( North Viet Nam )


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## Hakone (Mar 30, 2020)

subtropicum in Nursery , south Vietnam


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## dodidoki (Mar 30, 2020)

All of them are digged out from wild and will die.So called" nursery" will kill all plants and sp. will extinct forever.I don' t understand: these plants are growing there in forests.Why don' t they use collected seed-pod for breeding.Maybe they should start a project to set back young plants into the wild.


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## Berthold (Mar 30, 2020)

dodidoki said:


> All of them are digged out from wild and will die.So called" nursery" will kill all plants and sp. will extinct forever.I don' t understand: these plants are growing there in forests.Why don' t they use collected seed-pod for breeding.Maybe they should start a project to set back young plants into the wild.



Yes, many Vietnamese are painless and ruthless. They are not so interested in their nature.


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## Hakone (Mar 30, 2020)

Berthold said:


> Yes, many Vietnamese are painless and ruthless. They are not so interested in their nature.


Berthold , I forbid you to write *racially *here


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## Hakone (Mar 30, 2020)

dodidoki said:


> All of them are digged out from wild and will die.So called" nursery" will kill all plants and sp. will extinct forever.I don' t understand: these plants are growing there in forests.*Why don' t they use collected seed-pod for breeding.*Maybe they should start a project to set back young plants into the wild.


Cypripedium subtropicum seedling can you by in Germany.


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## Berthold (Mar 30, 2020)

I strictly recommend to delete this whole thread.
Hakones propaganda for illegal plant culture in Vietnam is not a win for the image of this forum.


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## Hakone (Mar 30, 2020)

dodidoki said:


> All of them are digged out from wild and will die.So called" nursery" will kill all plants and sp. will extinct forever.I don' t understand: these plants are growing there in forests.Why don' t they use collected seed-pod for breeding.Maybe they should start a project to set back young plants into the wild.



The problem is not a seeling but a *substrate. 
All plants have been alive for 3 years
*


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## Berthold (Mar 30, 2020)

Do not lie please.


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## Hakone (Mar 30, 2020)

Berthold said:


> Do not lie please.


Yes , You are very famous


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## Hakone (Mar 30, 2020)

in the garden subtropicum Lover . During the break period, temperature must be below 15 degrees


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## BrucherT (Mar 31, 2020)

I stand with Berthold on this. These are wild plants that do not survive in culture. Responsible culture would involve seed pods only and the progeny raised would maybe be growable. As far as his comment on Vietnamese people, I do not believe he was speaking “racially,” as Vietnamese is a nationality and not a race. The race would be “Asian.” And all he’s really saying is that poor people anywhere will exploit their resources. It is we who are to blame by creating and maintaining the hungry market for such plants.


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## Hakone (Mar 31, 2020)

BrucherT said:


> I stand with Berthold on this. These are wild plants that do not survive in culture. Responsible culture would involve seed pods only and the progeny raised would maybe be growable. As far as his comment on Vietnamese people, I do not believe he was speaking “racially,” as Vietnamese is a nationality and not a race. The race would be “Asian.” And all he’s really saying is that poor people anywhere will exploit their resources. It is we who are to blame by creating and maintaining the hungry market for such plants.



Did you buy the plants ?



BrucherT said:


> These are wild plants that do not survive in culture. Responsible culture would involve seed pods only and the progeny* raised would maybe be growable*.



Do you have evidence or is it just a Claim ?




BrucherT said:


> I do not believe he was speaking “racially,” as Vietnamese is a nationality and not a race. The race would be “Asian.”



Racial harassment means that someone is bothering you, threatening you or treating you unfairly because of your perceived:
race
colour
ancestry
place of origin
ethnic origin
creed
citizenship.

The Ontario _Human Rights Code_


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## Berthold (Apr 1, 2020)

Hakone is criticized here because he makes propaganda for illegal plant culture, which destroys nature, not because he is Vietnamese, Catholic, homeopath or something else.


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## Hakone (Apr 1, 2020)

your behavior is racist


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## dodidoki (Apr 1, 2020)

Yes, it is true.But out of flasks all of plants die.The main thing i d like to point the recultivation plants into the forests.In UK there is a project that works very well.Many of plants were recultivated successfully into the willd , mainly cyp. calceolus and henryi.


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## Hakone (Apr 10, 2020)

up date


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## BrucherT (Apr 10, 2020)

Hakone said:


> Did you buy the plants ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Berthold (Apr 10, 2020)

Hakone, You forgot to post Your Cypripedium tibeticum pot in this thread.


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## Hakone (May 20, 2020)

The theory of growing together with mushroom is just a Berthold´s fata morgana. People have changed their cultural condition. The plants thrive well


https://www.ecosia.org/search?tt=mz.../100040935096738/videos/268318361209332/?t=60


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## Phaladdict (May 20, 2020)

Berthold said:


> Be carful please.
> 
> We know this seller under following names
> cakai2012
> ...



Indeed thath is v. calcagnile and her husband, real hardcore scammers, be very careful


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## Phaladdict (May 20, 2020)

Hakone said:


> The theory of growing together with mushroom is just a Berthold´s fata morgana. People have changed their cultural condition. The plants thrive well
> 
> 
> https://www.ecosia.org/search?tt=mzl&q=https://www.facebook.com/100040935096738/videos/268318361209332/?t=60



As far as i know Berthold is right, either with fungus, in original soil(with the fungus) or in a sterile container, do you have evidence of long term success In different conditions? The link does not work


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## Berthold (May 20, 2020)

Phaladdict said:


> As far as i know Berthold is right, either with fungus, in original soil(with the fungus) or in a sterile container, do you have evidence of long term success In different conditions?



Hakone is a specialist in old traditional Chinese medicine, not in the cultivation of plants in a complex environment


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## Berthold (May 20, 2020)

Phaladdict said:


> Indeed thath is v. calcagnile and her husband, real hardcore scammers, be very careful


Actual names are :

plant_laboratory--eu
bboo585 
Prices are in British pound mainly


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## Phaladdict (May 20, 2020)

Berthold said:


> Actual names are :
> 
> plant_laboratory--eu
> bboo585
> Prices are in British pound mainly


Well the ones I'm talking about are located in Germany, at least one of the names is of Victoria calcagnile and Co. and they are real scammers really the worst i have ever seen because they sold fake of things thath cost real money even cahnii album once obviously fake


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## Hakone (May 20, 2020)

There is one P canhii semialbum


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## Berthold (May 20, 2020)

Phaladdict said:


> Well the ones I'm talking about are located in Germany, at least one of the names is of Victoria calcagnile and Co. and they are real scammers really the worst i have ever seen because they sold fake of things thath cost real money even cahnii album once obviously fake


Yes he is located near city of Stuttgart.


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## Berthold (May 22, 2020)

Phaladdict said:


> Well the ones I'm talking about are located in Germany, at least one of the names is of Victoria calcagnile and Co. and they are real scammers really the worst i have ever seen because they sold fake of things thath cost real money even cahnii album once obviously fake


Fangelkatze is his new name


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## Hakone (May 23, 2020)

Xuan Sinh Nursery


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## dodidoki (May 23, 2020)

Hakone said:


> Xuan Sinh Nursery
> View attachment 20198
> View attachment 20199


It is obviously wild collected plant.


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## Hakone (May 25, 2020)

Xuan Sinh Orchids


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## Berthold (May 31, 2020)

In this forum I do not like documentation of an illegal plant culture in Vietnam.
I think it would be better if the police and the media in Vietnam were made aware of this nursery.


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## Hakone (May 31, 2020)

Berthold said:


> In this forum I do not like documentation of an illegal plant culture in Vietnam.
> I think it would be better if the police and the media in Vietnam were made aware of this nursery.




It is not an illegal culture. Paphiopedilum and Cypripedium cultivation in Viet Nam are allowed . But you can't Export. I myself have 3 small nurseries for my hobby in Vietnam.

Uncle, I think you're confused.


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## Berthold (May 31, 2020)

Hakone said:


> It is not an illegal culture. Paphiopedilum and Cypripedium cultivation in Viet Nam are allowed . But you can't Export. I myself have 3 small nurseries for my hobby in Vietnam.



Mischief, Cypripedium subtropicum is subject to CITES.
Vietnam has accepted CITES, so the culture and trade are illegal.

I think You have nothing in Vietnam.


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## Hakone (May 31, 2020)

In certain autonomous areas in Vietnam, Cites has no application

" I think You have nothing in Vietnam " . hahaha , jealous

​


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## Hakone (May 31, 2020)

Example : 

http://www.eerikas-bilder.de/orchid...dium/cypripedium/cypripedium_subtropicum1.htm

http://albiflora.be/plantdetail.php?id=504


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## Berthold (May 31, 2020)

There are no autonomous areas in CITES possible. CITES applies the whole country or nothing of the country.


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## Hakone (May 31, 2020)

Berthold said:


> There are no autonomous areas in CITES possible. CITES applies the whole country or nothing of the country.



Example :

Taiwan

The CITES Convention includes provisions and rules for trade with non-Parties. All member states of the United Nations are party to the treaty, with the exception of Andorra, Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Federated States of Micronesia, Haiti, Kiribati, Marshall Islands, Nauru, South Sudan, East Timor, Turkmenistan, and Tuvalu. UN observer the Holy See is also not a member. The Faroe Islands, an autonomous country in the Kingdom of Denmark, is also treated as a non-Party to CITES (both the Danish mainland and Greenland are part of CITES).

CITES does not interfere with the sovereignty of a state, i. that is, the legal implementation and enforcement are the responsibility of each Member State.


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## Hakone (May 31, 2020)

Northwest Autonomous Region in North Viet Nam :

Thái - Mèo Autonomous Region : Mường Tè, Mường Lay, Sình Hồ (nay viết là Sìn Hồ), Điện Biên, Quỳnh Nhai, Sông Mã, Tuần Giáo, Thuận Châu, Mường La, Mai Sơn, Yên Châu, Mộc Châu,Phù Yên, Phong Thổ (thuộc tỉnh Lào Cai), Than Uyên, Văn Chấn (Yên Bái).

only autonomous law applies there


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## Berthold (May 31, 2020)

Hakone said:


> Example :
> 
> Taiwan
> 
> The CITES Convention includes provisions and rules for trade with non-Parties. All member states of the United Nations are party to the treaty, with the exception of Andorra, Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Federated States of Micronesia, Haiti, Kiribati, Marshall Islands, Nauru, South Sudan, East Timor, Turkmenistan, and Tuvalu. UN observer the Holy See is also not a member. The Faroe Islands, an autonomous country in the Kingdom of Denmark, is also treated as a non-Party to CITES (both the Danish mainland and Greenland are part of CITES).


By that You confirm that the whole country of Vietnam is member of CITES and is bound to CITES rules. North Vietnam and South Vietnam does not exist any longer.


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## Hakone (Jun 1, 2020)

Berthold said:


> By that You confirm that the whole country of Vietnam is member of CITES and is bound to CITES rules. North Vietnam and South Vietnam does not exist any longer.



VN 1994 Accession but not Ratification

https://www.cites.org/eng/disc/part...puCx0ctBohAtBLGuFWs_hskWTh5SCZHxaSpEl3pFI9Po8

Uncle , I think you got it wrong. CITES is about international trade . This is about national trade between Vietnamese


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## Hakone (Jun 1, 2020)

Uncle,* I hope you get it*. You mean international trade . I am talking About national trade


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## Hakone (Jun 2, 2020)

Xuan Sinh Orchids Nursery


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## Hakone (Jun 15, 2020)

Saison Juni 2020 , Xuan Sinh Orchids


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## Hakone (Jul 1, 2020)

Bui Binh Linh Nursery


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## Hakone (Sep 6, 2020)

update today , from friend


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## BrucherT (Sep 6, 2020)

Newly poached?


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## Hakone (Oct 8, 2020)

live


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## dodidoki (Oct 8, 2020)

Hakone said:


> live



Ohhh, Lord!!!!!


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## NYEric (Oct 9, 2020)

AS far a I know they are not propagatable yet. Is that incorrect?


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## TropiCool (Oct 10, 2020)

I just want to see some crosses btwn subropicum and other more readily cultivated cyps. A good start.


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## Hakone (Nov 3, 2020)

update


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## Hakone (Dec 13, 2020)

seedling subtropicum


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## dodidoki (Dec 13, 2020)

Taken from wild.


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## Berthold (Dec 13, 2020)

All people have the right to destroy their own land as they wish


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## dodidoki (Dec 14, 2020)

Berthold said:


> All people have the right to destroy their own land as they wish


I don t think so. All the creatures in nature owned by the whole mankind not only few asians.


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## TropiCool (Dec 14, 2020)

dodidoki said:


> Taken from wild.


That's my impression as well.


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## Berthold (Dec 14, 2020)

dodidoki said:


> I don t think so. All the creatures in nature owned by the whole mankind not only few asians.


No, You can shoot and eat the deers in Your area. Not a single Vietnamese has access to it.


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## shariea (Dec 14, 2020)

Actually the hunt is controlled and you have to have buy a permit. You can't just go out and shoot all the deer you see. In many states you do not need a license to hunt on your own land, but most hunters are responsible because they want to have sustained deer populations, hence continued ability in the future to hunt. Deer populations in many areas were basically wiped out during the 1930's, so we learned the hard way what effect uncontrolled hunting (albeit to stay alive during the great depression) can do. We HAVE to respect our wild populations, or risk loosing them completely. No one wants that do they? Even in Vietnam? 


Berthold said:


> All people have the right to destroy their own land as they wish


That is really a sad opinion in my experience. If you think you have that right, you really don't care about the lives of future people (or your own children even), and why laws protecting land use and animal management are so very important. Or you are just looking for an argument.


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## Berthold (Dec 14, 2020)

shariea said:


> Actually the hunt is controlled and you have to have buy a permit. You can't just go out and shoot all the deer you see. In many states you do not need a license to hunt on your own land, but most hunters are responsible because they want to have sustained deer populations, hence continued ability in the future to hunt. Deer populations in many areas were basically wiped out during the 1930's, so we learned the hard way what effect uncontrolled hunting (albeit to stay alive during the great depression) can do. We HAVE to respect our wild populations, or risk loosing them completely. No one wants that do they? Even in Vietnam?
> 
> That is really a sad opinion in my experience. If you think you have that right, you really don't care about the lives of future people (or your own children even), and why laws protecting land use and animal management are so very important. Or you are just looking for an argument.



Sorry, You don't understand, what I mean. I am familiar with hunting and have all necessary licenses. But I don't kill animals for fun only.
The government of a country alone decides, what is allowed to their people. An American has no right to prescribe anyone in Vietnam what to do or to leave, also the other way round.
Every nation has the right to destroy its own country in whatever form. 
No country would dare to stop the USA from destroying its natural resources except Greta Thunberg.


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## dodidoki (Dec 14, 2020)

Dear Shairea.Thanks, you wrote everything what I wanted.I think every people have responsibilty to save our natural envirionment for the next generation.As I dont run into forests here to dig out orchids I can expect for other peoples all around the word.Fortunately there are many orchids excint from wild but arteficial propagation is successful and sp. saved for future, futhermore there are more attempts to set them into original habitat.( eg. cyp. calceolus in England, Cattleya maxima in Equador).I think responsibility is frightenly high in the case of suptropicum, because this species is very hard to grow from seed, almost impossible.So if these guys destroy all the populations in the nature, species will lost for the future forever.


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## GuRu (Dec 14, 2020)

Berthold, I think not everbody of the members from all around the world understands your strange kind of humor. It's another situation than in your own forum.

Anyway, your absolutely right, every accepted nation reins her own territory with everythin what's there...living or dead material. On the other hand there are things too, which concern the entire mankind and these things can't be only under laws of one country/nation but under protection of the entire mankind i.g. saving endangered species from extiction or stabilisize (I don't say save) the world's climate (whatever this means).
But another fact comes in my mind, almost all of us live in contries which have a certain kind of prosperity. I don't know the situation in Vietnam (never was there) but I think it isn't a rich country, especially for people who live in ruaral zones. I won't judge too hard about people who sell digged plants to fill their plate by the money they earned but I can't understand people-single persons as well as industrial companies- who destroy endangered natur to make profit.


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## dodidoki (Dec 15, 2020)

Dear Guru, I don't judge poor people in Vietnam but I really don t like behavor of the government there.I think it must be few seriously protected area for saving rare species and government must do everything for conservation, propagation or setting back the extincted species into their habitat( eg. vietnamense disappeareed from most of old habitats but I never heard about the conservation of this slipper in the nature)


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## NYEric (Dec 15, 2020)

No one should want to destroy the land. Every part has its' place.


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## Berthold (Dec 15, 2020)

NYEric said:


> Every part has its' place.



*Nearly* every part has its' place.
I really don't need this Coronavirus and there are a lot more unwanted living beings.
I like polar bears, but I don't really need them really.


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## NYEric (Dec 15, 2020)

Berthold said:


> *Nearly* every part has its' place.
> I really don't need this Coronavirus and there are a lot more unwanted living beings.
> I like polar bears, but I don't really need them really.


Everything has it's purpose. Even though you don't need them, how do you know Polar bears are not necessary


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## Berthold (Dec 15, 2020)

NYEric said:


> how do you know Polar bears are not necessary


Because polar regions existed long before the polar bears and they took no harm.


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## GuRu (Dec 15, 2020)

dodidoki said:


> Dear Guru, I don't judge poor people in Vietnam but I really don t like behavor of the government there.I think it must be few seriously protected area for saving rare species and government must do everything for conservation, propagation or setting back the extincted species into their habitat( eg. vietnamense disappeareed from most of old habitats but I never heard about the conservation of this slipper in the nature)



Istvan, I agree completely and I didn't claim that you judge poor people. The issue you are talking about seems to be a generally problem of (some) Asian countries. Once again I never visited one Asiann country (only countries in Central America and the Caribbean) but I was told by friends who visited Thailand and Laos that there also orchids and other endangered species have been traded at the side of the road in some regions. Maybe Werner Freitag knows more about that issue.


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## BrucherT (Dec 16, 2020)

Berthold said:


> *Nearly* every part has its' place.
> I really don't need this Coronavirus and there are a lot more unwanted living beings.
> I like polar bears, but I don't really need them really.


What a simplistic, self-important, juvenile statement.


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## Berthold (Dec 16, 2020)

BrucherT said:


> What a simplistic, self-important, juvenile statement.



No, my contribution is very well thought out.
I'm afraid you just don't understand what nature really means for human existence.

Did you elect Donald Trump too?


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## Hakone (Dec 16, 2020)

dodidoki said:


> Taken from wild.


How do you know, dodidoki ?


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## Berthold (Dec 16, 2020)

Hakone said:


> How do you know ?


A professional will see this immediately.

Hakone, have you ever grown Cypripedium Yourself in your life?


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## Hakone (Dec 24, 2020)

up date


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## Hakone (Dec 24, 2020)

Berthold said:


> Hakone, have you ever grown Cypripedium Yourself in your life?



your girlfriend knows everything


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## Berthold (Dec 24, 2020)

Hakone said:


> up date View attachment 24258



Oh Pierre, you moved to Vietnam? A good idea, because in Germany we have the corona virus.


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## Hakone (Dec 24, 2020)

Berthold said:


> Oh Pierre, you moved to Vietnam? A good idea, because in Germany we have the corona virus.



Tai, remember, don't feed a troll!


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## Hakone (Dec 25, 2020)

up date


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## dodidoki (Dec 25, 2020)

I think it is my last comment here.Hakone, you post digged out plants day by day.We try to set some light in your brain that it is maybe the begining of something bad process.All plants you posted are wild collected plants.Only two persons all around the world who can propagate them.Albiflora in Belgium can propagate them from seed but never can get through and all plants dead after deflasking.Wenquig Perner has good results, he can get through deflasking, he has several plants, 2 or three years old REALLY seedlings.All you told here are just lies.Stop it please.


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## Hakone (Dec 25, 2020)

dodidoki said:


> .All you told here are just lies.Stop it please.



do you have any evidence ?


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## Berthold (Dec 25, 2020)

Hakone said:


> do you have any evidence ?



Oh yes, Your photos


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## Hakone (Dec 25, 2020)

There is seedling, not made in a laboratory, but sown directly in nature.


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## Berthold (Dec 25, 2020)

Hakone said:


> There is seedling, not made in a laboratory, but sown directly in nature.


Yes, sown by nature in nature


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## dodidoki (Dec 25, 2020)

All your pics are evidences.


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## Hakone (Dec 26, 2020)

dodidoki said:


> All your pics are evidences.



can you prove otherwise ? sown by man made in garden


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## dodidoki (Dec 26, 2020)

No need other evidence.I ended.


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## BrucherT (Dec 26, 2020)

C


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## BrucherT (Dec 26, 2020)

Berthold said:


> No, my contribution is very well thought out.
> I'm afraid you just don't understand what nature really means for human existence.
> 
> Did you elect Donald Trump too?



You’re old and will die soon and for you to make such a glaringly thoughtless statement shows how you heinously you have lived. To lose one form of life is to lose our own. Is that inevitable? Perhaps. But to reach such an advanced age as yourself and to express such callous, cavalier dismissal regarding the total eradication of an apex predatory organism is deeply appalling. Have you read nothing of value over your 8 decades? Is there an iota of humanity in you? Be ashamed. And don’t you ever accuse me of doing other than praying every day for Trump to be struck down by lightning.


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## Hakone (Dec 27, 2020)

dodidoki said:


> No need other evidence.I ended.
> I think it is my last comment here.



Thank you, then please do not comment any further here.


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## Hakone (Dec 27, 2020)

up date


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## Berthold (Dec 27, 2020)

BrucherT said:


> You’re old and will die soon



I think You will die before me but that is no problem for mankind.


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## NYEric (Dec 28, 2020)

Berthold said:


> Because polar regions existed long before the polar bears and they took no harm.


Yes, I agree the Ice will exist without polar bears, but not for long due to man. Your post is simplistic, self-serving, and one sided. VN highlands exist before canhii, and now it's gone. We all can agree subtropicum has not be propagated by man. IF it could you would see flasks and seedlings for sale. BTW, vegetative propagation is good but it still means plants were taken from nature, something that is known to not work in the long run.


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## Berthold (Dec 28, 2020)

NYEric said:


> We all can agree subtropicum has not be propagated by man. IF it could you would see flasks and seedlings for sale. BTW, vegetative propagation is good but it still means plants were taken from nature, something that is known to not work in the long run.


Eric, believe me, I have invested a lot of time and money in cultivating Cypripedium subtropicum. I now know very well what the problems with culture are. 
Solving them is possible in a laboratory environment, but very time-consuming, so that no one has really been interested in it so far. 
I consider the culture in the garden to be almost impossible without the micro-life environment from the original location of the species. 

In the other points I do not agree. Perhaps a City apartment in New York is not the right place to survey the conditions in the polar regions of our planet.


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## NYEric (Dec 28, 2020)

No one *where they come *from can propagate them in a laboratory. If you have them where you are, guess what? Stolen. And regarding a survey of polar regions, just like burning forest in the Amazon, melting ice caps are definitely a problem. Unfortunately, as stated in the movie The Matrix, 'humans are a virus", we are the fastest growing species and the one that affects the planet the most, so far negatively.


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## Berthold (Dec 28, 2020)

NYEric said:


> ... we are the fastest growing species and the one that affects the planet the most, so far negatively.



Yes, that's right, but I don't feel justified in killing or sterilizing other people so that they don't spread so quickly. 
Against viruses, insects or raccoons for example, I feel justified, even with polar bears, if they come into my garden and want to eat me.
Please give me a hint if my considerations are too simple for you.


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## BrucherT (Dec 29, 2020)

Berthold said:


> Yes, that's right, but I don't feel justified in killing or sterilizing other people so that they don't spread so quickly.
> Against viruses, insects or raccoons for example, I feel justified, even with polar bears, if they come into my garden and want to eat me.
> Please give me a hint if my considerations are too simple for you.


Hint.


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## NYEric (Dec 29, 2020)

Berthold said:


> Against viruses, insects or raccoons for example, I feel justified, even with polar bears, if they come into my garden and want to eat me.
> Please give me a hint if my considerations are too simple for you.


In all circumstances you mention, which I actually have been thru, bears, not polar, we took medicines, captured and relocated, or chased away. You justify your actions however you want, at some point, you may be the only person with live subtropicum ,but let's see for how long.


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## Berthold (Dec 29, 2020)

NYEric said:


> In all circumstances you mention, which I actually have been thru, bears, not polar, we took medicines, captured and relocated, or chased away. You justify your actions however you want, at some point, you may be the only person with live subtropicum ,but let's see for how long.



Modern mankind does not need medicine made from bear paws. We have a microbiological high technology also based on genetic engineering.
Grizzly bears only serve some people for mental edification, not for physical health or to earn more money.


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## Berthold (Dec 29, 2020)

BrucherT said:


> Hint.


I have simplified my thoughts so that you can understand them more easily. I'm afraid that not all visitors to this forum are on the level of Immanuel Kant.


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## NYEric (Dec 30, 2020)

Are you?


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## Tom499 (Dec 30, 2020)

Hakone said:


> up date
> View attachment 24322
> View attachment 24323
> View attachment 24324
> ...


Looks great! Fingers crossed !!


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## Berthold (Dec 30, 2020)

NYEric said:


> Are you?


I only discussed Kant a little, for example "Critik der reinen Vernunft".
I am a scientist and engineer, not a philosopher. Therefore, I think more about the problems of the real existence of several participants in the same environment, for example: humans and polar bears, viruses and humans, orchids and fungi, coal-fired power plants and the Greta-Thunberg generation, fungi and bacteria, Hakone in this forum etc. and a combination of all of that.


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## shariea (Dec 31, 2020)

Have we descended to the "I know you are, but what I am I" stage yet?


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## NYEric (Dec 31, 2020)

Not quite yet.


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## Hakone (Dec 31, 2020)

a little insight into my expedition


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## Berthold (Jan 3, 2021)

Waterfalls, oh great. I love the Niagara Falls


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## cnycharles (Jan 3, 2021)

Nice flowers and falls...


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