# Angraecoid save update



## Shiva (Jan 26, 2011)

I think it necessary at this time to bring some precisions about the move of the national French angracoid orchids collection to Montreal.
Some 80 species of angracoid orchids will be moved to the Montreal botanical garden, a total of 230 plants. Many species will come in double mature size plants to help in reproduction.
Not all plants of the French national collection will come to Montreal as some are too large and would be too expansive for transport. Thus, at least a good part of the national collection will remain in France. No one knows at this time what will become of them should the company close its doors as it is widely rumored.
Also all angracoid plants of the National collection were grown from seeds. No angracoid orchids plants were ever taken out of Madagascar by Maurice Lefoufle, only seeds.
In short, the Montreal botanical garden will have more than two hundred plants issued from the original national collection, but the older part of the french collection will remain in France.

There should be a media event in Montreal at the end of march or early april to celebrate the arrival of the plants.

I hope this clears things up for everybody.


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## NYEric (Jan 27, 2011)

Specimens Yay! :drool:


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## ronan (Jan 27, 2011)

"Also all angracoid plants of the National collection were grown from seeds. No angracoid orchids plants were ever taken out of Madagascar by Maurice Lefoufle, only seeds."

really? :rollhappy:


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## paphjoint (Jan 27, 2011)

Hi Shiva

Well I guess you mean Marcel Lecoufle?

Its well known among older orchid growers in France that almost all the Angracoids at Lecoufle's are of collected origin, so what ? 
what's the issue that was back in the sixites - they use to go there on collecting trips.




Shiva said:


> I think it necessary at this time to bring some precisions about the move of the national French angracoid orchids collection to Montreal.
> Some 80 species of angracoid orchids will be moved to the Montreal botanical garden, a total of 230 plants. Many species will come in double mature size plants to help in reproduction.
> Not all plants of the French national collection will come to Montreal as some are too large and would be too expansive for transport. Thus, at least a good part of the national collection will remain in France. No one knows at this time what will become of them should the company close its doors as it is widely rumored.
> Also all angracoid plants of the National collection were grown from seeds. No angracoid orchids plants were ever taken out of Madagascar by Maurice Lefoufle, only seeds.
> ...


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## Shiva (Jan 27, 2011)

paphjoint said:


> Hi Shiva
> 
> Well I guess you mean Marcel Lecoufle?
> 
> ...



Yes of course! I meant Marcel. A new TV documentary has been made on Marcel Lecoufle and I had the pleasure of seeing it along with several other people. I don't think it has been shown yet on television. In it, Marcel makes this comment about never bringing out an angracoid plant out of Madagascar. I thought it interesting since he went several times to Madagascar during his life.


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## Shiva (Jan 27, 2011)

ronan said:


> "Also all angracoid plants of the National collection were grown from seeds. No angracoid orchids plants were ever taken out of Madagascar by Maurice Lefoufle, only seeds."
> 
> really? :rollhappy:



Give me a break! I do tend to mix up their names once in a while. I try not to, but it happens.


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## ronan (Jan 27, 2011)

Shiva said:


> Give me a break! I do tend to mix up their names once in a while. I try not to, but it happens.



why a break? did i have to apologize for something?! 
and i don't care about the name...

do you really think he only brought seeds back? :rollhappy: this is why i laugh...
he may have to say that, but it's a joke...

that's all...you're the one who speak a lot! and i'm not arguing, but as i'm french and as i feel concerned i just use my right to tell you how wrong you are.

why truth should be annoying to you? :wink: i'm not arguing!!! please, respect my freedom of speech


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## paphjoint (Jan 27, 2011)

Hey Guys
May I sugggest not to start a flame war - does not do anyone good

Even though MArcel Lecoufle says he did not take any plants out of Madagascar - its just a way of being politically correct if he would have said the contrary it could easily have been taken out of context and today its not what people want to hear - 
Now this company have been in the business for so long and back then - several decades ago it was just common practice to go and rip of entire area for orchids -

have a good day


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## Shiva (Jan 27, 2011)

ronan said:


> why a break? did i have to apologize for something?!
> and i don't care about the name...


Oui Ronan, je parle beaucoup et parfois trop, et je ne voudrais en rien vous empêcher d'exprimer votre opinion que je respecte au plus haut point. Vos remarques sont pertinentes.
Cela dit, je ne crains pas d'avoir tort. Je préfère parler à tort parfois que de ne rien dire du tout. Pour moi, la conservation de notre environnement est primordiale et si les orchidées malgaches ne s'avèrent pas «sexy» pour certains, ce n'est pas une raison pour les ignorer. Vous avez peut-être remarqué que le sort des orchidées malgaches n'a guère attiré d'intérêt ailleurs qu'en Europe. Très peu de gens aux États-Unis ont montré de l'intérêt pour le sujet. 
Peut-on croire Marcel Lecoufle. Je réponds pourquoi pas? J'ai souvenir d'un autre grand Français qui s'est battu pour la protection de l'environnement bien avant tout le monde. Il s'appelait Jacques-Yves Cousteau.
Je vous souhaite une bonne journée.

Michel


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## ronan (Jan 27, 2011)

c'est bien que le canada est racheté une partie de la collec, pour ces memes raisons de conservation...je l'ai dit dans l'autre post.
(mais oui t'en a trop dit par ailleurs...)

et c'est clair qu'il a pas ramené que des graines! il est obligé de le dire comme ça, mais bon, ça n'a pas de sens. c'est ça qui me fait marrer, c'est du politiquement correct, c'est marrant! apres les americains sur bcp de forums sont tres sensibles sur ce sujet...j'en rajoute donc pas!
++


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## Shiva (Jan 27, 2011)

paphjoint said:


> Hey Guys
> Even though MArcel Lecoufle says he did not take any plants out of Madagascar - its just a way of being politically correct if he would have said the contrary it could easily have been taken out of context and today its not what people want to hear -



Uri!
You may be right for all I know, but is it fair to apply our modern cynicism to all of those who came before us?
Rachel Carson published her very influential book ''Silent Spring'' in 1962 and another Frenchman, Jacques-Yves Cousteau was among the first at about the same time to begin to raise ecological worries about the health of the global ocean. Maybe Marcel Lecoufle was among those few that saw what was coming. I'm not ready to throw him in the bin of History along with all the other orchid collectors simply because he could have been like them. But we'll never know for sure one way or another, unfortunately.


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## Ernie (Jan 27, 2011)

Shiva said:


> Très peu de gens aux États-Unis ont montré de l'intérêt pour le sujet.



Pas du tout la cas IMO!


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## Shiva (Jan 27, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Pas du tout la cas IMO!



I love to be contradicted that way. Thanks Ernie. That cheers me up a lot. :rollhappy:


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## Erythrone (Jan 27, 2011)

(Sorry for those of you who don't read French)

Merci pour toutes ces informations, Michel.

La finalité pour moi, c'est que tout le travail de conservation des espèces fait par Marcel Lecoufle n'est pas perdu, quelque soit le pays qui en prenne charge. 

Pour ce qui est des plants prélevés en pleine nature, je ne suis pas prete à condamner tous ceux qui l'ont fait, surtout si de toute façon l'habitat allait être détruit. Le problème n'est pas toujours un problème de cueillette. N'empêche que je suis fondamentalement contre le pillage d'espèces en milieu naturel.


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## Ernie (Jan 27, 2011)

A fait d'accord.


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## paphjoint (Jan 27, 2011)

Ok good point

BUT the thing is that in the past I've attended several of Marcel's conferences on Angracoids orchids here in France .... and I will say no more 





Shiva said:


> Uri!
> You may be right for all I know, but is it fair to apply our modern cynicism to all of those who came before us?
> Rachel Carson published her very influential book ''Silent Spring'' in 1962 and another Frenchman, Jacques-Yves Cousteau was among the first at about the same time to begin to raise ecological worries about the health of the global ocean. Maybe Marcel Lecoufle was among those few that saw what was coming. I'm not ready to throw him in the bin of History along with all the other orchid collectors simply because he could have been like them. But we'll never know for sure one way or another, unfortunately.


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## Shiva (Jan 27, 2011)

Erythrone brings a very valuable argument to this discussion. In short, she says that many orchid collectors may have saved a great many species by taking them from their natural habitat years ago. I totally agree with her views.
I'm convinced that the CITEs regulations are today killing more orchids or animal species than they are saving. I think we're way beyond that in protecting the environnement now.
There is a beautiful vanda species called luzonica. It used to grow on the flanks of Mount Pinatubo in the Philippines. The eruption not long ago of this volcano has probably destroyed the local habitat of the species and all of the plants there. Imagine if I had been there before the eruption running around trying to save the plants, I would probably have been thrown in jail for violating the CITEs reglementation and trying to export the plants to safety. 
Everywhere, destitute people are encroaching on the environments and destroying their local floras only to stay alive, and it's likely to get worse before it get's better. The response has been to create a rigid bureaucracy that will make sure nothing much survive in the end.
What must be done is take those orchids, those animals and other endangered species and put them in collections or zoos around the world to save them from extinction. 
That's where we are now. Climate change, the pressure of growing populations everywhere and the need to bring them up to speed with self government and independance and also a sense responsibility are overwhelming. We're like Noah before the biblical flood and we need a biiiiig Ark to save what can still be saved, and I'm sure it won't happen with CITES. :viking:


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## ronan (Jan 27, 2011)

luzonica is a great Vanda! 

collecting orchids is a difficult subjet with many issues. but Cites is not, this regulation is only a question of money.
btw when it was in the 60-70 it was totaly an other kind of story...i really don't blame lecoufle! thx to him for collecting all these species.

he didn't make politics...he takes care of madagascar in a way.


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## Shiva (Jan 27, 2011)

ronan said:


> luzonica is a great Vanda!
> 
> collecting orchids is a difficult subjet with many issues. but Cites is not, this regulation is only a question of money.
> btw when it was in the 60-70 it was totaly an other kind of story...i really don't blame lecoufle! thx to him for collecting all these species.
> ...



The worst part of collecting was done in the early days when orchid hunters collected all they could and destroyed the rest to insure the plants would bring more in sales. That's when the real crimes were done, but they didn't know any better.

Coming back to the angraecoid collection, I've been told that Geneviève Lecoufle will be in Montreal for the occasion, that is if her health makes it possible. I look forward to meeting her.

B/W, I hope you stay active on this forum. If not, I'll shoot my mouth out again.


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## etex (Jan 28, 2011)

How wonderful for Montreal!! Congrats! It must be so exciting to get a part of such an important collection!


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## oisifml (Jan 29, 2011)

ronan said:


> why a break? did i have to apologize for something?!
> and i don't care about the name...
> 
> do you really think he only brought seeds back? :rollhappy: this is why i laugh...
> ...



There is documentated film footage of the expédition... the bundle of plants he brought back did not look like seeds to me...:wink: when I say bundle I mean truckloads.


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## Shiva (Jan 29, 2011)

Well! I only reported what he said.


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## oisifml (Jan 29, 2011)

Shiva said:


> The worst part of collecting was done in the early days when orchid hunters collected all they could and destroyed the rest to insure the plants would bring more in sales. That's when the real crimes were done, but they didn't know any better.
> 
> Coming back to the angraecoid collection, I've been told that Geneviève Lecoufle will be in Montreal for the occasion, that is if her health makes it possible. I look forward to meeting her.
> 
> B/W, I hope you stay active on this forum. If not, I'll shoot my mouth out again.



It's true that in the 19 century orchid hunters were ruthless and collected and destroyed remaining plants with little discernation but to be honest it is peanuts compared to what has been done in the 20th century with what is really the destruction of the habitat, the search for precious lumber, grazing land ( and for angrecoids, the making of charcoal in Madagascar)…the encroachment of wild land by farmers and the culture by burning the land and I’m not mentioning Palm tree plantations in Asia…

As a side note, Cousteau did not come up with a spontaneous ecological conscience, true he was fascinated by the sea..but if you watch his early films, if you read his early writing ( and I’m not mentioning his collaborationist brother) you will notice it was only much later in his career that he embraced ecology…when he realized how marketable it could be..

Nowadays, it is no secret that a few of Cousteau’s expeditions were also in part coupled with spying for the French Military( he was after all an navy officer on prolonged leave) 
his later obsession with overpopulation have a nasty smack of Malthusianism.
As for G.L. her health has been mentionned already, I don't know the rules of etiquette in the US and Canada but I can tell you that in France those infos are not shared on a forum.

Sorry to be the party pooper.


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## Shiva (Jan 29, 2011)

Different culture here. Although I'm French, this is North America and we know everything we want or don't want to know about every celebrities. So this morning, Charlie Sheen has gone into rehab (Do I really care?) And US presidents get in the news almost every time they get a bad cough. Even the Obama's dog made more news than many critical findings in science. We're so used to talk about other people's ailments we don't even think twice about reporting them. Remember Clinton's escapade? Mega news in America, almost ho-hum in the rest of the world. 
As for the party pooper part, well, I can take it.


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## Erythrone (Jan 29, 2011)

I am a party pooper...

I live in North America too.

Is Geneviève Lecoufle a public figure like Bill Clinton?

And are all news about celebrities of public interest ?


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## Shiva (Jan 29, 2011)

In Quebec, we have a tendancy to go for compassion when we learn a public figure is sick, and I believe that for us orchidophiles, Geneviève Lecoufle is one such person. You have known such a person yourself Lise. 
I mentioned Bill Clinton as an example of different perception between the US and the rest of the world.
Here when we learn a public figure has a cancer or is sick, we're sure to find doctors on television explaining what type of cancer or other ailments he has, what are the prognostics for survival and so on. In a way we learn about the disease while being compassionate at the same time. 
As for the question about illnesses of celebrities, I agree we don't need to know most of the time (not that we have a choice). Once in a while though, there are people passing that we must know about. That said, we're generally more respectuous of other people in Canada than in the US, which is why many American consider us a gentle and polite people.


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## cnycharles (Jan 29, 2011)

Shiva said:


> B/W, I hope you stay active on this forum. If not, I'll shoot my mouth out again.



:wink: I think the phrase is 'shoot my mouth off ...' but we know what you mean 

... and the part about north american (or maybe american) news being over-abundant, it's very true, and often people in circles like the orchid world, are more semi-private than public, because so many people know others and are concerned enough so that they appreciate being told about someone's condition. I wouldn't want to go to the new york times and print it, but in a sheltered circle like this or an orchid email list it's probably not an off-hand thing (in the u.s., I appreciate the difference in France)


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## Shiva (Jan 29, 2011)

Thanks Charles, and I'll try not to shoot my mouth off again.


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