# Are green complexes just albinos?



## StreetVariety (Jan 4, 2018)

Are green complexes created by crossing reds with ablinos? Is this why the recent white breeding are smaller whites crossed with big green complexes?


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## Ozpaph (Jan 7, 2018)

If you have access to Orchid Wiz you could check the genetic tree. 
I dont think your first statement is correct.


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## silence882 (Jan 8, 2018)

No, greens are not created by crossing reds with albinos.

The genetics of color in complex paphs is pretty complicated.

Paphs (and other types of orchids) express 3 types of color pigments:
anthocyanins - reds/browns/purples
carotenoids - yellows
chlorophylls - greens

The color and pattern of a bloom are a result of the combination of those 3 pigments.

In an 'albino' orchid, there is no expression of the anthocyanins in the blooms or leaves. This is why you get blooms that are a mix of green, white, and yellow. Any purple spotting on the leaves will be absent in an albino.

There is no such thing as an orchid that lacks carotenoids and chlorophylls. Both of these pigments, in addition to providing flower color, perform vital functions in plant metabolism. A plant without them wouldn't be able to grow.

Complex greens and yellows have albinos in their backgrounds - which is where the lack of expression of anthocyanins come from. But pure whites will also have albinos in their background. So that begs the question - why are some albinos white, some green, some yellow? That all comes down to the genetics of carotenoid/chlorophyll color expression & suppression in the blooms. Some species (e.g. a lot of the brachys) suppress virtually all carotenoid/chlorophyll expression in their blooms, leading to a flower with a pure white background. As such, the brachys play an important role in the background of white flowers.

So why do they keep breeding whites with greens in the hopes of getting big clear whites? Because each has a property the breeder wants: He wants the clear white color from the white and the size from the green (greens are some of the largest of the current complex hybrids). The hope is that some of the seedlings will inherit the large size from the greens and the ability to suppress carotenoid/chlorophyll expression from the white.

There is a lot more nuance to color development than what I've listed here. There is sometimes partial albinism in flowers and variations in the levels of color expression. This is especially true when a hybrid is 10+ generations removed from the original species.

--Stephen


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## SlipperFan (Jan 8, 2018)

Good explanation, Stephen.


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## Ozpaph (Jan 9, 2018)

I agree with Dot, thanks.


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## StreetVariety (Jan 9, 2018)

Thank you Stephen!


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 15, 2018)

Can anyone provide the size (just the natural spread) of largest recorded white complex flower? 
I have only seen so many, and they seem to run on the smaller side.

Also, the white ones seem to have varying amount of yellow, which disappear near the end of the flower life, and with/without tiny spots near the center. 

I would love to have a nice white complex, within reasonable price range, that is.


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## drschumann (Feb 2, 2018)

Almost all of the white complex are based on the species nivium which is a tiny flower. Basically, white complex are crossing/back crossing of nivium with insigne sanderae with bits and pieces of other stuff added in. The "other stuff" increases the size but also adds extraneous color. The purest white I know of is a very old plant, Meadowsweet Purity, but I'm not sure it's even around anymore. Some more modern ones that are fairly clear white are Anopuddle "Eureka", Icy, Icy Wind, Whitemoor "Ashlands" or "Norriton", Luminance "New World", etc. A large part of modern white breeding is based Skip Bartlett "White Pepper"; you can tell it has spots from the name. 
I don't know the answer about largest size, but so much depends on culture. White complex tend to be very cool growing. 
Hope this helps, Dr. Bill Schumann


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## consettbay2003 (Feb 4, 2018)

IMHO the best of current white paphiopedilum breeding is on a par with green/red/spotted complex paphs. I have been collecting 'white' complex paphs. for decades and am reasonably familiar with what are arguably the best grex and clones that fulfill the niche of desirable whites regarding size, vigour and purity of colour. There are no complex paph. clones that open to a colour that could be reasonably be described as true white but a number of clones certainly do fade within a reasonable period of time to be an acceptable paper white. I recently posted several images of paphs. that fit this criteria.
Under my conditions white paphs. would not fall under the description of 'very cool growers'.
I would not consider adding a 'white' paph. to my collection that was not at least 12.5 cm N.S. The largest clone I currently have has a N.S.of 14 cm.


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## Happypaphy7 (Feb 4, 2018)

Thank you for the input, both of you.

By the way, which one is it that you have that has 14cm spread??
That is large for any variety, but especially for white complex.


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## consettbay2003 (Feb 5, 2018)

I have several clones of Paph. Mystic Knight and one clone of Paph. Barnes Byford
that have a N.S. of 14 cm.


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