# Problem Phrag?--Seeking thoughts and opinions



## Orchidzrule (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi all,

Here is a phrag I've had for some time. It's Phrag Mem. Estelle Getty. I got it from Orchids Limited when they attended my OS show about 3 or 4 years ago. I can't say if I actually bought it or if Jason was kind enough to give it to me for helping out, but it became my first ever phrag. Knowing absolutely nothing about them, I gave it way too much light (and perhaps too much warmth) and the leaves got really pale and some odd markings appeared on them. To make matters worse, I almost certainly under-watered it. It had a single growth when I got it and another growth initiated around about the time I realized I should move it to a less stressful location. I did so and the new growth improved in appearance and grew fairly well, but the old one was too far gone and, as you can see in this photo, died off.







Although the new growth never looked as bad as the old one, it too had a hint of the same odd markings on the leaves, as you can see in the second and third photos. (My apologies for the fuzziness of the third photo--it's highly magnified and I couldn't tell the focus was a little off until I saw it on the computer screen.)











Although I've been told viruses are rare in phrags, I can't help but wonder if that's exactly what these markings indicate. If you can't tell from the photos, the brown areas are raised. The yellowy lines are a bit exaggerated in the third photo, compared with how they appear in real life.


So, if it's a virus, I really ought to throw the plant out of course, but I'm curious as to whether there is a possibility these markings are simply an artifact of the harsh conditions it was formerly growing in.

I might have thrown it out, anyway, virus or not, but imagine my surprise when I looked at it today! (Sunday, November 27) You may notice the leaf on the upper left is the same as the one in the two previous photos.




It's fairly tough to bring myself to throw out a plant in spike!

So, what are your opinions? Virus? Environmental? Should I throw the plant out? Keep it in the hopes the next growth will be better? (The leaves on the second growth, which had initiated under the former growing conditions, are much better than the ones on the first were, so I am kind of hoping.) Let it bloom, and then throw it out?

For those who like the full plant photo, here is one more photo. It doesn't look that terrible, but...





Any opinions would be most welcome!


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 27, 2011)

I highly doubt that its virus. I've seen that kind of damage on nearly all my phrags at some point or another. Don't worry....just treat it with kindness and lots of water. Phrags are mostly hardy as a horse.


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## cnycharles (Nov 27, 2011)

I see salt buildup on top of those s/h pellets; flush water down through that pot!


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## NYEric (Nov 28, 2011)

Are you giving it pure water/every day??


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## Shiva (Nov 28, 2011)

Water it with rain or reverse osmosis water or melt snow if you have to. Phrags like good water quality, low fertiliser and anywhere between phalaenopsis and cattleya light. Temperatures between 15 and 25°C. If you see salt buildup in the pot, you can flush it with water as already mentioned or you can repot the plant in fresh mix. If the plant is spiking, that's a very good sign. Also, for many phrags, it's normal for old growth to die off after a while, unfortunately. As the plant becomes sronger, the old fans may also last longer.


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## Erythrone (Nov 28, 2011)

I had a Phrag Grande with Cymbidium mosaic virus :






According to what I see I don't see it is CymMV virus. Actually I don't think that is another virus too...

I have a Phrag Mem. Estelle Getty. It grows very well in a bark/leca/perlite/rockwool mix.

I now grow only 2 Phrags in SH in leca (acutally PrimAgra) since they dry out too fast for me. I must water almost every day in summer. Now I water every 2 to 3 days... I had sphagnum on the top and it helps. I aways flush with water before fertilisation because I had problem with salt deposits.


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## Orchidzrule (Nov 28, 2011)

Thank you all for your comments. Most informative! 

EricM, thanks for your reassurances. I am a terrible waterer--I would be the first to admit it, and I have no doubt that's a big part of the problem. Cnycharles, as soon as I saw the photos, I noticed the salt build-up and you will be pleased to know I thought I ought to really soak and flush the media, and duly did so. It's funny, though, the salt was more obvious in the photo than in reality. NYEric, I'm sure you've already guessed I don't water it every day, maybe even before my admission of my poor watering skills. It does sit in water in a saucer, and I do periodically replace the water with fresh. And, I think it's pure enough--all the members of my OS use our city's tapwater, including some really great growers--it's about 100 ppm dissolved salts. I think my real problem is I am not flushing enough water through when I do water.

Shiva, are you saying it may not be strictly my bad cultural practices that resulted in the death of the original growth? I don't know about fischeri, but the other parent is longifolium and I thought it tended to grow into decent specimens. I still think I should take the blame! 

Erythrone commented on the LECA being too quick to dry out and I know someone else who said the same thing (not publicly on the forum). I should perhaps mention when I got it, it was potted in a bark mix and it was always drying out. I wasn't using a saucer with water at the time and when I decided to try it, I thought it might not be desirable to keep bark constantly wet, sitting in water, and so I changed it to the LECA. However, I now know of several people who do grow phrags in bark sitting in water and so maybe I erred in changing. 

So nobody thinks it's virus? I guess I was sort of conditioned to suspect it by a remark made by a judge at our show this year. Another member of our club got this same grex, possibly the same clone, when I got mine. He got a more mature plant and is a much better grower and so it was in bloom for the show. It was a stunning plant and got pulled for AOS judging. It wound up not getting awarded, and one judge commented on the markings on the leaves, saying "this could well be virused" and since my plant came from the same source, I have wondered ever since. Unlike my plant, his was (other than the leaf markings) a really happy looking plant.

Anyhow, thank you again for your comments. I think I have learned quite a bit and will do a little experimenting with my growing technique.


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## Kevin (Nov 28, 2011)

After it blooms, try repotting it into a small plastic drink cup or something similar, using the clay pellets, but with holes half way up the cup. From your photo, it looks like, even if you fill the saucer, there isn't enough water to sustain your 'poor watering skills'. Another trick is to put some moss on the top, to try to keep the new roots moist in between waterings. Just some thoughts.


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## Shiva (Nov 29, 2011)

I don't know about fischeri but if it's anything like schlimii, it will tend to lose old growths. I was talking more in general terms. Many phrags grow bigger while eventually still losing the old growths. I have a large collection of phrags but most are still young and perhaps, as the growths get bigger, they will clump more readily.
I don't agree with Kevin on punching holes in a plastic cup. Phrags are terrestrial orchids and want a great deal of moisture at the roots. So good quality water and frequent watering is essential in a mix like yours. And again, make sure you avoid excessive temperatures.


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## Erythrone (Nov 29, 2011)

Do you have some thrips in you collection?


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## Shiva (Nov 29, 2011)

Erythrone said:


> Do you have some thrips in you collection?



I will assume this question is adressed to me. If so : No! Never had any. I have some occasional problems with mealies and scales but no thrips.


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## NYEric (Nov 29, 2011)

Probably addressed to OrchidzRule.


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## Erythrone (Nov 29, 2011)

I was adressed for OrchidRule!


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## Rick (Nov 29, 2011)

Also everything we've been talking about concerning reducing K and uping Ca/Mg applies equally well to phrags as for paphs.

The dead spotting and leaf tip burn that was common in my phrags has all but disappeared with the new low K feeding program.


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## Kevin (Nov 29, 2011)

Shiva said:


> I don't agree with Kevin on punching holes in a plastic cup. Phrags are terrestrial orchids and want a great deal of moisture at the roots. So good quality water and frequent watering is essential in a mix like yours. And again, make sure you avoid excessive temperatures.



What I was saying, was to grow the plant more in a semi-hyrdo way - if there are no holes in the cup, then the plant is just sitting in a stagnant cup of water. You need the holes. I suggested the holes be halfway up, to leave a large resevoir. Phrags seem to respond very well to this type of potting.


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## Shiva (Nov 29, 2011)

OK! I get it Kevin! I was thinking holes in the bottom too.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 29, 2011)

Before you try SH, check the roots. If the roots are good and growing, or new roots are forming, its worth a try. I've only had 1 SH phrag success, but its a monster...many others have had better luck than me on more plants. But if the roots aren't in good shape, than SH may not be a good move.


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## Kevin (Nov 30, 2011)

You have a point, but looking at Orchidzrule's photo, the plant is already kind of growing in S/H - potted in clay pellets, sitting in a resevoir of water. I have some growing like that too, I just think this plant could use a bit more water.


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## Orchidzrule (Nov 30, 2011)

Why do you ask about thrips? What suggests them to you?


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## Stone (Dec 1, 2011)

In the first close up you can clearly see raised area in the middle of the leaf. I've seen this a few times on cattleyas. Not virus. I would put my money on a reaction to irritation by mealybug when the leaf was developing?
Further proof of this in second pic showing symetrical damage when leaf was still folded


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## Orchidzrule (Dec 1, 2011)

Stone said:


> In the first close up you can clearly see raised area in the middle of the leaf. ..... I would put my money on a reaction to irritation by mealybug when the leaf was developing?
> Further proof of this in second pic showing symetrical damage when leaf was still folded



Regarding any insects (including thrips, as previously mentioned by Erythrone) I am inclined to dismiss them as the cause for a couple of reasons. This plant, for a few months, grew with three other Phrags, often with the leaves touching. (Yeah, I know it's better to not let plants touch, but space constraints...) None of the others ever developed these symptoms. Shouldn't they have if it was an insect-caused problem? The only other plant I have seen having symptoms like my plant was the plant (same grex, quite possibly out of the same flask) my fellow OS member exhibited at the show. (Which I mention in my first post on the thread.)

The lack of symptoms in my other phrags, combined with the symptoms in another plant of the same grex, possibly same clone, owned by someone else suggested three possibilities:
1. Virus (as suggested by one of the judges).
2. Some genetic weakness in this particular plant.
3. Environmental stress.

Of course, numbers two & three are not mutually exclusive and might work in tandem.

I would be the first to admit my plant cultural techniques are far from stellar. Since everyone seems unanimous in saying it's not a virus, I think it's my bad care that needs to be worked on!

Thank you all for taking time to offer your suggestions. I hope to see some improvement in the plant, as a result of what you have told me.


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## NYEric (Dec 2, 2011)

Orchidzrule said:


> This plant, for a few months, grew with three other Phrags, often with the leaves touching. (Yeah, I know it's better to not let plants touch, but space constraints...)


:rollhappy:


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## quaker (Dec 4, 2011)

Phrags are not greedy feeders so require very little fertilizer but keep them very wet by flushing out stagnant water from the compost every day. They will ( or should )get their oxygen needs from the fresh water.

Ed


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## Erythrone (Dec 4, 2011)

Orchidzrule said:


> Why do you ask about thrips? What suggests them to you?



Sorry. I didn't read your comment before.

I was asking about thrips because some of my Phrags had some this year (not all of them. And that was not because the affected ones were growing side by side.)

Unfortunatly I "raise" thrips for many years now (mainly in Dendrobium nobile hybrids. Fortunatly I can remove the foliage when it is too ugly in fall!) but last summer was the first time this pest really took a lunch at some of my Phrags. They fed on newer leaves and I saw some tan colored streak on the new leaves. Although the damage is not exactly the same on your plant, I was thinking this could be the result of another species of thrips.


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## John M (Dec 4, 2011)

This does not look like virus to me. It's cultural. Some plants love S/H potting medium and some don't. If this plant were mine, I'd repot it now, regardless of the spike forming and throw out those pellets. It's not happy in that potting mix. Use a mix with at least a little bit of bark, moss or CHC; with lots of gravel and drainage material like shredded styrofoam. Water often and thoroughly. Not watering often enough or heavily enough is a big problem with Phrags. You need to learn to water better if you want to grow great Phrags. And yes, I agree with Rick; make sure that you are not overfeeding with K; but, also make sure that you are providing enough Ca and Mg.


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## SlipperFan (Dec 4, 2011)

I agree, John.


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