# cleistogamous buds



## Chicago Chad (Sep 19, 2013)

Will a plant that produces cleistogamous buds, ever develop a normal flower? I have one in my collection and I'm about threw with it. I found some articles on the subject, but nothing orchid specific.


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## naoki (Sep 19, 2013)

Chad, what species are you talking about? In Viola and Impatiens, they produce cleistogamous and chasmogamous flowers. Others like some Polygonum species produce mostly cleistogamous flowers. I'd like to know if there is cleistogamous orchid species.


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## Chicago Chad (Sep 19, 2013)

Pleurothallis/Specklinia tripterantha is the one I have. The one I bought for someone else also looks like it will be the same. I have also heard of Dendrobium delicatum having the same problem.


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## NYEric (Sep 20, 2013)

Photo?


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## Doug (Sep 20, 2013)

*Cleitogamous orchid*



naoki said:


> Chad, what species are you talking about? In Viola and Impatiens, they produce cleistogamous and chasmogamous flowers. Others like some Polygonum species produce mostly cleistogamous flowers. I'd like to know if there is cleistogamous orchid species.



A couple of our USA native coralroot orchids are or can be cleistogamous.


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## Chicago Chad (Sep 20, 2013)

Sorry Eric, no photo today. I spoke with a good friend and vendor and he stated that he has some plants that are notorious for this and that you have to be aware for which they are. Sorry again, I don't have a list, but I remember he mentioned Epi. nocturnum. With some circumstances, it may come and go. It may be one season, one spike or one flower. He also stated if the trend repeats itself, it will continue on for what may be be infinity. He stated that if this clone or plant had reverted back to this due do a loss of a pollinator, it may take 10s of thousands of years to undue, if ever. We also discussed if culture could be a factor, but that was dismissed. If culture was the issue, would it even send a spike in the first place?! Certainly not many, many spikes with the same result under what can be said as proper culture. 

Just his opinion in another orchid discussion that I thought I would share. If anyone thinks its worth keeping let me know, because I need the space.


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## NYEric (Sep 20, 2013)

I wanted to see how "unopen" the blooms on the Pl. tripternatha are.


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## Chicago Chad (Sep 20, 2013)

No problem Eric, but it will have to be on Monday. They are completely closed. A few have already split, some others I have cut off, but I have a spike with a few left.


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## naoki (Sep 20, 2013)

Chicago Chad said:


> It may be one season, one spike or one flower. He also stated if the trend repeats itself, it will continue on for what may be be infinity. He stated that if this clone or plant had reverted back to this due do a loss of a pollinator, it may take 10s of thousands of years to undue, if ever. We also discussed if culture could be a factor, but that was dismissed. If culture was the issue, would it even send a spike in the first place?! Certainly not many, many spikes with the same result under what can be said as proper culture.



Interesting info, Chad. From the view point of the plants, this isn't a developmental/genetic problem, it's rather a feature of these species, right?

Cleistogamy can be an adaptation, and there is a strong selection pressure to promote selfing (you can pass 2 copies of your gene through seed instead of only 1 copy via outcrossing). This advantage of selfing is inherent in addition to the advantage you mentioned (reproduction without pollinators). This selection pressure is usually countered by the disadvantages of selfing (such as inbreeding depression). So sending up lots of shoots with cleistogamous flowers could be normal (and I don't think this can be used to a counter argument that the environment doesn't contribute to cleistogamous flowers). 

I can see the advantage of environmentally induced cleistogamy vs chasmogamy. For example, let's say if you are providing great environment, so the plants think that its genotype is well matched with the environment. Then they could produce selfed offspring, which is likely to be a good match to the environment. On the other hand, if you (as a plant) is highly infected by disease, it is advantageous to escape from this by outcrossing.

Well, it's kind of long-and-windy way of saying that it could be a "problem" to the owner who wants to see the flower open, but it seems to be an interesting biology of this species, and it would be interesting to see if you can change the behavior. Maybe you are giving too nice environment? Torture time?

Thanks Doug, you are right Corallorhiza could have cleistogamy.


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## Tom-DE (Sep 20, 2013)

NYEric said:


> I wanted to see how "unopen" the blooms on the Pl. tripternatha are.



The flowers won't open. They are just self-pollinated and form seedpods.

Chad, I will send you a cutting of my Pthl. tripterantha if you like. Mine is not cleistogamous. 

Yup, the white form of Den. parvulum is known for its cleistogamy. Den. brymerianum and Barkeria chinensis often have cleistogamous problem also. I am sure there are some more species having the same problem, including few Bulbo. species...


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## Chicago Chad (Sep 23, 2013)

Thanks Tom. I tossed it last night.

Eric/ as requested:


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## NYEric (Sep 24, 2013)

Thanks. I would have taken it. I was looking for a yellow one, mine is a darker one.


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## Chicago Chad (Sep 24, 2013)

If you want it, it is still sitting around. I took it off the mount and set it aside. I got busy and didn't throw it out. If you want it you can have it, but it will most likely never open.


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## NYEric (Sep 24, 2013)

I will chemically induce it to open.


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