# RO fertilizer question



## etex (Jan 15, 2010)

Hi! Recently got an RO unit, and received MSU Pure Water Special Orchid Fertilizer by Green Care repackaged by Kelley's Korner.Googling today and found a disturbing thread about this product from this vendor on Garden Web Orchid Forum. What do you guys think? Thanks for your help(again)

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/orchids/msg0721012011352.html


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## Ernie (Jan 15, 2010)

I'd guess they screwed something up. The first responder to that post asked all the right questions. Don't overdo it, don't apply to bone dry plants. 

-Ernie


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## etex (Jan 15, 2010)

Thanks Ernie! That was my guess,too. But, wanted to check with you guys before I used it because I sure wouldn't want to be wrong on this one!


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## SlipperFan (Jan 15, 2010)

I'd like to try to clear up a couple things:

1. Greencare is the maker of the MSU formula. MSU is the originator.
2. They make two versions (that I know of). One is for rain/RO/distilled water and the other is for tap/well water.
3. Any color to the fertilizer is only a dye, and it can be any color requested by the company that repackages the fertilizer for sale.
4. Since the fertilizer comes in 30# bags, it is incumbent upon the repackager to be sure the bag is mixed thoroughly before repackaging. I know that with one of the formulas, at least, you used to have to mix two commponents together before repackaging. I think Greencare now does that themselves, but I don't know if the two-package formula is still available or not.
5. The dilution rate for 125 ppm for the RO formula is 3/4 t., and for the tap water formula is 1/2 t.
6. The well/tap water formula has 19% total nitrogen whereas the RO/rain/distilled formula has 13% total nitrogen. They are not interchangeable.


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## Ray (Jan 16, 2010)

The problem the original poster had was using the tap water formula with NYC tap water - it is some of the purest water in the world, so the RO formula should be used.

Because she used the WW formula, I'd bet her pH was in the basement some where.

As to the mixing of the ingredients, the degree of homogeneity is dependent upon the season - particularly the humidity level, as the calcium compounds are very hygroscopic. If they try to gring finely in the summer, it clogs up all of their equipment. The homogeneity is also, to some extent, dependent upon who they purchase raw materials from, and that changes all the time.

For the RO formula, for example, as a way to get around that issue, I recommend that folks mix 1# into 1 gallon of concentrate with hot water. That concentrate - totally homogeneous - can be used at one ounce per gallon for 125 ppm N.


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## Lanmark (Jan 16, 2010)

Ray said:


> For the RO formula, for example, as a way to get around that issue, I recommend that folks mix 1# into 1 gallon of concentrate with hot water. That concentrate - totally homogeneous - can be used at *one ounce* per gallon for 125 ppm N.



One ounce as in 2 tablespoons?


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## etex (Jan 16, 2010)

Sounds better!! Thanks for the input!


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## paphreek (Jan 17, 2010)

Ray's recommendation is the best way to use the fertilizer. Making a liquid concentrate also makes the fertilizer much easier to use. Constantly dipping a measuring spoon into the tub exposes the fertilizer to the humidity in the air. The fertilizer absorbs the moisture in the air, making it much harder to use. I pre-weigh the fertilizer and put it into ziplock bags so whenever I need another gallon of concentrate, I simply grab a bag and mix with a gallon of water.


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## Leo Schordje (Jan 17, 2010)

I have used MSU made by Green care for years, I have never had a problem. As Erinie & Ray have pointed out, the poster in Garden Web Orchid Forum had to be doing something wrong, and I suspect Ray's analysis is likely dead on. Follow the directions for the 125 ppm solution and you won't have trouble.


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## etex (Jan 17, 2010)

I bought the 3 lb. tub of the RO fertilizer and looking at the mix-flakes,powder and little balls, I don't know if it is possible to get a homogeneous 1 lb to add to a gallon of hot water. Maybe I am fixating on this, but after reading Sanderianums post this morning, my concerns have reawakened.


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## Kavanaru (Jan 17, 2010)

Ray said:


> I recommend that folks mix 1# into 1 gallon of concentrate with hot water.



sorry for the ignorance, but which unit is #? I have never seen it before, so I assume is kind of an USAmerican unit...


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## John D. (Jan 17, 2010)

# is used to represent pound also lb.


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## Kavanaru (Jan 17, 2010)

John D. said:


> # is used to represent pound also lb.



Thanks! I knew only "lbs"


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## Leo Schordje (Jan 17, 2010)

I believe Sanderianum is growing in troical southeast Asia, where humidities are always quite high. His statements about the instability of the 'dry' mix may be quite true for his experience, but probably don't match the experience of many more temperate and more arid climate growers. 

I do not like making up a stock solution for the Green Care, MSU formulas. To avoid the instability issues of solutions, I prefer to keep my fertilizer in the 'dry' state. (I use quotes recognizing that these dry looking powders have salts with various degrees of hydration). 

I do like Ross and some of the others, buy the large bag, and immediately break it down into smaller quantities, taking care to store all in as tightly sealed and as low humidity as practical containers. I use a few 2 lbs screw top polyethylene jars for the small containers. I keep the main part of the bag sealed and inside a sealed bucket to minimize humidity from seeping in. I only open the big bag when I have depleted the small 2 pound cans. Thus limiting the number of times the big bag gets opened & exposed to humidity. I go through about 2 pounds per month, so this works well for me. There are dozens of ways to skin this cat, but basically, Ray's and Ross's suggestions are generally right in line with my experience. I think the MSU formulation is superior to any of other fertilizer formulation I have tried in my 35+ years of growing orchids. I would not let the one posting on Garden Web, nor Sanderianum's comments disuade you from giving the MSU formula a try. There are good suggestions for handling all fertilizers, such as not overstocking, and keeping humidity out of the dry powders. The making of a stock solution is very important for people using proportioners to apply their fertilizers. But if you are making and applying fertilizers directly without using a proportioner, I personally suggest skipping the creation of stock solutions. 

Those are my 2 cents. FWIW - Leo


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## Masdyman (Jan 20, 2010)

Hi , i have been using a MSU type fert for about 5 months so have read this post with interest and to see if anything needs to be tweaked .
Once you have mixed up your feed is there a shelve life ?
IF the ph is checked and adjusted before use is it ok not to use the mix up straight away?
I have been feeding at 100 ppm for my Masdevallias and 125 ppm for others ,i have been doing this for 3 waterings then ro flush.
I just hope i have done the right thing but only time will tell !
So far i am happy .


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## etex (Jan 21, 2010)

Thanks everyone for sharing your experience, vote of confidence with this product, and tips!! You are the greatest!!
Next time, I will buy the 1 lb size. For now, will separate and keep in sealed containers. Thanks again!!


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## Brabantia (Jan 21, 2010)

Masdyman said:


> Hi , i have been using a MSU type fert for about 5 months so have read this post with interest and to see if anything needs to be tweaked .
> Once you have mixed up your feed is there a shelve life ?
> IF the ph is checked and adjusted before use is it ok not to use the mix up straight away?
> I have been feeding at 100 ppm for my Masdevallias and 125 ppm for others ,i have been doing this for 3 waterings then ro flush.
> ...


100 ppm N for Masdies seems to be a little bit to high, I use 60 ppm one time each weeks during 3 weeks and I am flushing with pure water the fourth.


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## Masdyman (Jan 21, 2010)

Brabantia said:


> 100 ppm N for Masdies seems to be a little bit to high, I use 60 ppm one time each weeks during 3 weeks and I am flushing with pure water the fourth.



I will keep a eye on them and see what they do .


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## Brabantia (Jan 22, 2010)

Other question about fertilyser. What is the pH of a 125 ppm N solution made with the MSU fertilyser and RO water?


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## Masdyman (Jan 22, 2010)

Brabantia said:


> Other question about fertilyser. What is the pH of a 125 ppm N solution made with the MSU fertilyser and RO water?



I would imagine this will be variable between growers ?
Anyway mine is approx ph 5.9 ,i always have to adjust ph up.


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## Brabantia (Jan 22, 2010)

Masdyman said:


> I would imagine this will be variable between growers ?


No, if RO water is used.


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## Leo Schordje (Jan 22, 2010)

About pH, for low total disolved solids water, RO or rain, I would not worry about pH, it is a trivial issue. I wrote a longer explaination, but I will post it in a new thread, as it goes off topic.


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## Ray (Jan 23, 2010)

I, too, typically see 5.9, but that's just fine, so I use it as-is.


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## cnycharles (Jan 23, 2010)

I think this is helpful to have limestone in the media of some plants that prefer slightly higher pH's - it can stabilize the media pH no matter what the pH is of the fertilizer water. When we feed seed plugs at work with the 13-2-13 6 3 cal mag fertilizer, I believe the pH out of the hose is often fairly acidic. Since it has calcium and when the plants take up this fertilizer the media ends up becoming alkaline or higher pH (maybe not over 7, just higher than usual).


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## penangirl (May 6, 2010)

*5lbs. of msu ro got wet!!! ?ruined?*


my 5lbs can of msu ro granular, cover cracked and over the last week enough water got in to wet and change the color of all the granular. it did not liquify much. but it is still wet, were it has dried it is solid but im able to chip off enough to use. 
but is the fertilizer still good or is it garbage. what do you think,
its probabley not worth risking a valuable collection. unless somebody can garantee me.it is still aok.


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## cnycharles (May 6, 2010)

it's fine, the chemicals in it like calcium just attract water if you leave the top off or exposed to air. it's not damaged or chemically altered (other than having more water in it)


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## penangirl (May 6, 2010)

sound good charles, but is it good enough or has it not changed composition in the least bit..
i mean i have plenty of liquid msu, plus a multitude of other organic and various other orchid ferts. msu is my main stay, but i like to mix in other ferts, once or twice a month, to fill in any potential deficiencies plus who wants to eat the same thing every day for the rest of their life;l
If you tell me its 100 percent safe and efficient then i will use it...
one other thing is does the granular msu go bad after time, i dont have an experation date on the bucket, its been around a few years. what is their that could change in time and go bad on granular fertilzer?
thanks for the help


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## Ray (May 7, 2010)

With the exception of the EDTA used to supply iron, all of the ingredients in the formula are inorganic minerals, so quite stable.

The only real problem you're going to have is weighing it for mixing, as you don't really know how much of the mass is now water, but making a stock solution from the remaining material lessens that concern.


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## penangirl (May 7, 2010)

thankyou ray
i think thats what i will do;that is make a big final stock solution. how long will the stock solution stay viable;.
lm


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## Ray (May 8, 2010)

Keep it sealed between use, and shake well before dispensing, and you should not have any issues.


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## Rick (May 8, 2010)

Ray said:


> Keep it sealed between use, and shake well before dispensing, and you should not have any issues.



Periodically I've noticed an ammonia like smell when opening a started bottle of dry mix after it has been sitting out at room temp for a week. Since I'm usually opening and closing the bottle in the greenhouse I suspect I may be getting some damp air into the bottle. Subsequently, I keep mine in the fridge between uses now in case there is a humidity leak into the container.


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