# I support Pat Mahon



## Lance Birk (Oct 20, 2006)

Pat Mahon said it right; there is no global warming on this planet caused by Man’s activity and/or carbon dioxide. While the earth actually is warming to a slight degree, so are all the other planets in our system. It is caused by the actions of our sun. Cosmic rays, not carbon dioxide are causing the raise in temperatures --- in some places more than others.

Just because some of you have chosen to believe different ‘theories’ that Pat Mahon does not accept, does not, in any way, mean that you are correct. It only means that your concept of the earth is governed by the fact you think man actually has significant influence over it. 

Global warming is a political agenda. It has everything with the United Nations and corruption, and the transference of wealth from developed countries to selected undeveloped ones. It has nothing to do with reality. But I, myself, hold no expectations of ever convincing anyone who believes in the bogus science that ‘proves’ the global warming BS. This is all about MONEY!!! (Incidentally, I can provide documented, convincing and provable evidence that the earth is square, too.)

For those of you who so viciously have attacked him, shame on you! Where’s the polite debate? For the administrator of this forum to continuously bully and threaten Mahon, I think his actions are reprehensible, … and it speaks volumes about his true character. 

Pat Mahon has an active intellect. For a young 17-year old, I see a person with a critical mind filled with volumes of knowledge. He has ideas that most adults couldn’t even have a conversation about. His ideas of conservation and selfless pursuit of plant conservation are commendable…yet he is attacked and bullied by ignorant critics. Is this what this forum is about? Must be, some of you same people attacked me, too.

I will also support Rush Limbaugh, who I heard quote a passage from my Paphiopedilum book last week. Rush speaks continuously about moral and traditional values. I have never heard him speak anything but truth. He, also, is highly intelligent and is undeservedly criticized by people who neither know him nor listen to him.

I salute Pat Mahon, and David Halla (David H), and I thank them both for their military service to our country.

Have a nice day.

Lance Birk


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## kentuckiense (Oct 20, 2006)

I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the theory of evolution by mutation and selection.


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## Heather (Oct 20, 2006)

Lance Birk said:


> For those of you who so viciously have attacked him, shame on you! Where’s the polite debate? For the administrator of this forum to continuously bully and threaten Mahon, I think his actions are reprehensible, … and it speaks volumes about his true character.



I take extreme issue with the above statement. 
Clearly, you have not read the entire thread, Lance, for if you had, you would have seen the following message. 



PHRAG said:


> I was going to a take a back seat on this one, but I think something needs to be said.
> 
> Mahon,
> 
> ...



There was absolutely no bullying and threatening done by any of the administrators of this forum! 
I also find it interesting that, though the thread continues on a positive note and the argumentative nature has dissipated, you felt the need to stir the waters up again, Lance. 

This is a place of open discussion, and if you cannot handle the heat, get out of the kitchen; or keep your mouth shut and don't read the thread. Simple as that.


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## slippertalker (Oct 20, 2006)

Lance,

You were somewhat convincing until you brought up Rush Limbaugh. To support this bloviating mass of flesh is truly disgusting. I'm not surprised that you take an anti-global warming view if you support such a highly political supporter of the administration and it's anti-science policies.

To say this man speaks of moral and traditional value is probably true, but it is hypocritical. He's a drug addict (oxycontin and hydrocodone which are opioids) and recently came back from the Dominican Republic with viagra pills that weren't prescribed for him. Of course, the fact the the D.R. is a haven for child prostitution is just a coincidence. 
from Wikipedia:
Limbaugh is highly critical of environmentalism and has disputed human-caused global warming and the relationship between CFCs and depletion of the ozone layer.

If I were Pat Mahon, I would certainly not like to be lumped with this man. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but Pat has a lot of potential and needs to open his intellect to multiple ways of thinking rather than a closed and politically biased version of intellect.


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## nyorchids (Oct 20, 2006)

how about everyone show us pictures of our plants talk about growing areas,potting media and leave the science to scientistsity:


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## Jmoney (Oct 20, 2006)

I couldn't care less what anyone's beliefs are as long as they don't infringe on me. However, I don't see ONE THING in that post that relates to CULTURE AND TAXONOMY. buzz off I say.


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## Heather (Oct 20, 2006)

Jmoney said:


> However, I don't see ONE THING in that post that relates to CULTURE AND TAXONOMY.



Point taken! this thread has been moved.


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## Jmoney (Oct 20, 2006)

you're being generous. I'd probably have axed it altogether. but I admittedly have a low tolerance for idiocy.


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Oct 20, 2006)

That's the best laugh I've had all day, thank you! Everything makes so much more sense now as the picture comes together.

Jon
________
 Herbalaire Vaporizer Review


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## couscous74 (Oct 20, 2006)

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :rollhappy: 

I am so glad to hear that you also don't believe in that evilution bunch of BS. Long live the Flying Spaghetti Monster!!


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## Heather (Oct 20, 2006)

Marcus - we are many....


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Oct 20, 2006)

All hail his noodley master, for in time we shall all drink from the beer volcano!

Jon
________
CLASS ACTION LAWFIRM


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## Heather (Oct 20, 2006)

yo, ho, ho...!!!


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## Tony (Oct 20, 2006)




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## paphioland (Oct 21, 2006)

I think I missed something???


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## paphioland (Oct 21, 2006)

I think Lance has some points here. I don't read all the threads on here but just searched through the one that is being discussed here. Although some might not agree with Mahon he is a 17 yo kid and he should be encouraged for his independent thinking. While I think he has much to learn about radiation and so do I and I am a radiation oncologist. I am pleased that a 17 yo is even thinking about such things. Lets all try to be supportive if possible or at least polite and noncondescending. We all love slipper orchids. YAY!


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Oct 21, 2006)

I agree on that....I do not agree with what Pat is saying, but he is undoubtably gifted..and he is 17....That is definitely an age where intelligence, emotion, and articulation do not always arrive in sync...hell, I used to be a teenager....and I have raised 4 of them, and I teach teenagers as a living. My oldest is in med school...he has always been brilliant. When he was 16 he was presenting his research at the Intel international science fair, and winning prizes...he also thought that Communism was the most beautiful philosphy he ever had encountered. I allowed him his freedom of thought....(although I fortunately convinced him not to join the communist youth party...perhaps it was the idea of the government investigating us that swayed him?) My son no longer holds the beliefs that he held as a teenager, but through those explorations he has become a far more historically and politically informed person than I am. Whether or not Pat holds on to his ideas in adulthood, he will certainly know how to express them and justify them, whatever they may be, in a more pursuasive manner....lets give the guy a break, he is certainly learning a lot from this discussion, as are we all. Take care, Eric


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Oct 21, 2006)

To be honest, when I saw this thread originally I was thinking of responding seriously. But today I saw the hook the worm was attached to and decided not to bite. I assure you that you should not be taking any of us too seriously, Mahon knows why people are taking him with a grain of salt, and I think the last couple days have just been a little needed release.

So instead of wasting a few more pages on what could get ugly, I'm glad to see the Flying Spaghetti Monster showed up to keep us all light hearted and focused on the truth. He reminds us that the TRUE reason for global warming still remains in DIRECT CORRELATION with a saddening lack of Pirates.
Do your parts this Halloween and maybe, just maybe, if enough of us go as pirates we can drop the global temperature by a degree or two.

WWFSMD?
________
MAGYAR SUZUKI HISTORY


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## Mahon (Oct 21, 2006)

Jon in SW Ohio said:


> Mahon knows why people are taking him with a grain of salt



Actually, I was quite unaware of this... perhaps you can enlighten me upon this, or is it your personal opinion? Thanks in advance 

-Pat


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Oct 21, 2006)

http://www.slipperorchidforum.com/forum/archive/index.php?t-1677.html
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=475
________
Ferrari club of america specifications


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## paphjoint (Oct 21, 2006)

>there is no global warming on this planet caused by Man’s activity and/or >carbon dioxide. While the earth actually is warming to a slight degree, so >are all the other planets in our system,
>>Global warming is a political agenda. It has everything with the United >>Nations and corruption, and the transference of wealth from developed >>countries to selected undeveloped ones. It has nothing to do with reality

MR Birk - stop please you're making a fool out of yourself - 
- Now believing that there's a complot behind global warming - is nonsense too but comprehensive from your point of view as people often becomes paranoiac with ageoke:


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## Mahon (Oct 21, 2006)

Jon,

I in fact quit Slipper Talk, as I disagreed with Steve Topletz being kicked off... sorry, but I support friends, and I also support people who share similar interests in conservation and propagation... I infrequently visit there to see a few Paphiopedilum or Phragmipedium pictures or scour for information... 

As for my research on Florida native orchids, what are you trying to make a point of? There are too many things discussed... was it I asking Zach about possibly collecting those orchid pods? How could I predict where those plants are? If they were on his property, good for me if he was willing to cooperate, and I wouldn't have to write many messages (writing in order to get straight to the point). If they weren't on his property, he could have simply corrected me... I find that to be an over-dramatic act... and the overall subject an error... and I personally find that it is a loss to Zach and everyone else, as my propagation efforts could re-populate that area in about a year. 

Very interesting though, you failed to point out to me who these people are, and why they would take me as a grain of salt... of course, if it is that important to you to find a flaw with me, then keep on going... well, at least I know that I am on your mind! 

-Pat


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Oct 21, 2006)

I wasn't referring to you leaving, as you still post there. I was referring to you losing the trust of two people who before dealing with you had no reason not to trust fellow members.

Jon
________
SILVER SURFER VAPORIZER


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## Mahon (Oct 21, 2006)

Again, in the other thread 'The End of the Line', I posted the website with some information...(http://epw.senate.gov/speechitem.cfm?party=rep&id=264027) it is information, and we have 2 sides... so naturally, both sides will debate with each other. My opinion is that global warming is non-existent... other's, and obviously yours Uri, are supportive that global warming exists... 

I find that there are variations in climate, and we try and link everything together... this year, it was predicted by our Florida meteorologists that there will be around 10 or more hurricanes... we didn't have a one this year... yet, it was broadcasted many times on the news, and we were to expect the worse this year... it slowly died down after a while though...

And what about the Ice Age, if we can actually prove this to be ABSOLUTELY true... what, did human interaction with earth not exist enough? Did we need more caveman fires? Come on, isn't it really possible that we don't actually know what is going on with earth, assuming that global warming actually exists? 

I find that Lance is not making a fool out of himself... he is someone that I personally look up to. I am reading his 2nd edition of 'The Paphiopedilum Grower's Manual', and I must say that it is very informative and of upmost value. I am disappointed that many of you have been ignorant enough to say you would disregard his book because of your prejudiced opinion upon him. I find it very foolish that that is done, yet it is your own loss for not even questioning the book constructively... instead, you jump at a single biased opinion and keep on it (I mean, if you changed opinions, then who knows WHAT might happen)... well regardless, to tell you the truth, and being a very avid Paphiopedilum grower, it is very useful, more so than Cribb's book... Lance's book speaks more in practicality and more in cultivation aspects (hence, the title of his book!)... the pictures aren't of the best quality, but the details and information about the native habitats sure make up for it (elevations and details on the months of rain are very important to know)... besides, if you are looking for pictures, I then suggest looking on the internet... 

-Pat


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## Mahon (Oct 21, 2006)

Jon in SW Ohio said:


> I wasn't referring to you leaving, as you still post there. I was referring to you losing the trust of two people who before dealing with you had no reason not to trust fellow members.
> 
> Jon



Jon,

You have a partial story concerning Heather... I wish not to really bring it up here, as I do not want to cause any problems. But if Heather feels the need to discuss the story, then it will be discussed only then. 

As for Zach, I still don't see what you are talking about? I don't understand how my trust could be lost from an inquiry? 

I notice how none of these exactly point to anything, one being an incomplete story (which I discussed with Heather within an hour of joining here), the other some overdramatic reaction... perhaps you just don't like me, or more so despise me? 

-Pat


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## paphjoint (Oct 21, 2006)

>> well regardless, to tell you the truth, and being a very avid >>Paphiopedilum grower, it is very useful, more so than Cribb's book... 

*Read the title before the content :* 

Birk's books is a grower's manual, Cribbs book is a Botanical monograph


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Oct 21, 2006)

I never said I disliked you, and if you presumed I was going that way I apologize. You asked why I would say people take you with a grain of salt. I gave two examples of you giving people a reason not to trust you. If you can't be trusted, you loose credibility. If you lack crediblity, you are taken with a grain of salt. Simple as that. I have no interest of going into your past with these and other members, I was just answering your question indirectly figuring you would be able to read between the lines and get the answer I said above.

Jon
________
WEBSITE DESIGN


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## Mahon (Oct 21, 2006)

paphjoint said:


> >> well regardless, to tell you the truth, and being a very avid >>Paphiopedilum grower, it is very useful, more so than Cribb's book...
> 
> *Read the title before the content :*
> 
> Birk's books is a grower's manual, Cribbs book is a Botanical monograph



Yes, you are correct, Cribb's book is a monograph of the genus, while Lance's book is a book upon cultivation... I find Lance's book more comprehensive and informative than Cribb's monograph of Paphiopedilum... I find that Cribb's pictures are useful, but Lance's book offers more valuable information (more geared towards cultivation) and pictures (just not the best quality though)... don't get me wrong, I love Cribb's monographs, like Cypripedium, Paphiopedilum, and Pleione... but it does not compare to Lance's book... 

Personally, this is the only orchid book besides Robert Dressler's 'The Orchids', that I can read like a normal book... it is quite interesting and Lance's knowledge on their cultivation is astounding! The details for each species is very valuable in Lance's book... 

-Pat


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## Mahon (Oct 21, 2006)

Jon in SW Ohio said:


> I never said I disliked you, and if you presumed I was going that way I apologize. You asked why I would say people take you with a grain of salt. I gave two examples of you giving people a reason not to trust you. If you can't be trusted, you loose credibility. If you lack crediblity, you are taken with a grain of salt. Simple as that. I have no interest of going into your past with these and other members, I was just answering your question indirectly figuring you would be able to read between the lines and get the answer I said above.
> 
> Jon



Jon,

I apologize for assuming that you disliked me or wanted to start trouble. Those two incidents, I personally take as a grain of salt... 

Neither incident is of any significant importance to me. If either person involved in those two incidents wishes to lose their trust in me (or people who don't exactly know what is going on and lose their trust in me), then that is their problem. In one incident, a question was being asked, and was taken the wrong way... I will take some blame as to being my fault, as it wasn't clearly written, but surely nothing illegal was ever suggested. Besides, I make it very clear and well known all the time that I completely support conservation of the orchids.. I support that information is very important in the conservation of orchids (actually, any organism for that matter)... I also find that propagation achieves conservation of a species...

I must get to sleep, I can only watch Family Guy and write for so long... 

-Pat


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## Heather (Oct 21, 2006)

Pat Mahon, 
I don't believe a word that comes out of your mouth, and I'm not the only one. From the ongoing trade incidents, to the "research" you do, to your "practice" descriptions in which you involve your "good friend" Olaf Gruss (without his knowledge!). 

I would caution any of my friends against trusting you.


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## Rick (Oct 21, 2006)

Has anyone read The Weather Makers by Tim Flannery? Or have I got into this post (or end of the line post) way too late?

I don't agree with everything in his book, but there are tons of good convincing numbers in it.

And as far as conspiracy theorists go, there is a great chapter on the funding and media spinning by the right wing/fossil fuel energy anti-global warming coalition.


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## paphioland (Oct 21, 2006)

Weather is a chaotic system. A very chaotic system. Too many variables to measure accurately and if we try to measure, the error inherent in the numerous measurements needed for the equation will accumulate making the end value far from what it should be. Also we are part of the system so we cannot measure it. The truth is no one understands global warming and if you find a reputable scientist who says they thoroughly understand it without making any conjectures they are lying. I am not saying what is or isn't contributing to it or the percentage that these aspects contribute. 

Also, Evolution and global warming are far from the same thing. So to compare the knowledge of the science behind them is crazy. The better thing would be to say is global warming occuring the answer appears to be yes. Will it continue and until when-Who knows. What exactly is causing it in what proportion, too difficult to answer.


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## the jive turkey (Oct 21, 2006)

I have some comments.



Lance Birk said:


> Global warming is a political agenda. It has everything with the United Nations and corruption, and the transference of wealth from developed countries to selected undeveloped ones. It has nothing to do with reality. But I, myself, hold no expectations of ever convincing anyone who believes in the bogus science that ‘proves’ the global warming BS. This is all about MONEY!!! (Incidentally, I can provide documented, convincing and provable evidence that the earth is square, too.)


the term "global warming" is political. I'm not sure about the other claims though. I'm not sure if you are talking about the way data is used by politicians which discredit theory on climate change or the theory itself is flawed. For the science, I posted some neat links below that you might take a look at.

Also, it might be fun to see documented, convincing and provable evidence that the earth is square, please post.




Lance Birk said:


> For those of you who so viciously have attacked him, shame on you! Where’s the polite debate? For the administrator of this forum to continuously bully and threaten Mahon, I think his actions are reprehensible, … and it speaks volumes about his true character.


My experience with the Administrator has only been positive. I think he just wants to help-that also says something about his character, otherwise he would not get involved in Mahon's discussions like me.



Lance Birk said:


> Pat Mahon has an active intellect. For a young 17-year old, I see a person with a critical mind filled with volumes of knowledge. He has ideas that most adults couldn’t even have a conversation about. His ideas of conservation and selfless pursuit of plant conservation are commendable…yet he is attacked and bullied by ignorant critics. Is this what this forum is about? Must be, some of you same people attacked me, too.



Yeah, but when he is having a conversation with adults, posting ideas on a public forum, he must expect that people will have disagreements and he should be able to consider his critics' arguments. The nature of these internet forums(i.e quick responses, concise language) can make somone seem rude or on attack. The fact that he is 17 shouldn't have anything to do with anything else at all. Having said that, I have read several other of Mahon's posts in different forums and I think he will love college. 


on Rush Limbaugh


slippertalker said:


> To say this man speaks of moral and traditional value is probably true, but it is hypocritical. He's a drug addict (oxycontin and hydrocodone which are opioids) and recently came back from the Dominican Republic with viagra pills that weren't prescribed for him.


+1




paphioland said:


> Weather is a chaotic system. A very chaotic system. Too many variables to measure accurately and if we try to measure, the error inherent in the numerous measurements needed for the equation will accumulate making the end value far from what it should be. Also we are part of the system so we cannot measure it.



Meteorology is the scientific study of weather. You can take measurements of temperature, atmospheric pressure, wind speed ect . . . with an acceptable margin of error. 
this site explains simply what Meteorology is and does:
http://www.ace.mmu.ac.uk/eae/Weather/Older/Meteorology.html
http://www.ace.mmu.ac.uk/eae/Weather/Older/Measuring_Weather.html

this might be fun to look at too.
http://ww2010.atmos.uiuc.edu/(Gh)/guides/mtr/home.rxml




Lance Birk said:


> Pat Mahon said it right; there is no global warming on this planet caused by Man’s activity and/or carbon dioxide. While the earth actually is warming to a slight degree, so are all the other planets in our system. It is caused by the actions of our sun. Cosmic rays, not carbon dioxide are causing the raise in temperatures --- in some places more than others.


and


paphioland said:


> The truth is no one understands global warming and if you find a reputable scientist who says they thoroughly understand it without making any conjectures they are lying. I am not saying what is or isn't contributing to it or the percentage that these aspects contribute.
> 
> Also, Evolution and global warming are far from the same thing. So to compare the knowledge of the science behind them is crazy. The better thing would be to say is global warming occuring the answer appears to be yes. Will it continue and until when-Who knows. What exactly is causing it in what proportion, too difficult to answer.



It's not that difficult to answer:
(this is from the Environmental Protection Agency http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/stateofknowledge.html)


> What's Known
> 
> Scientists know with virtual certainty that:
> 
> ...



Take care,
Thomas


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## Mahon (Oct 21, 2006)

I agree with Pahioland. Weather is a very chaotic system, and I think we really don't fully understand it. 

Of course, for those of you who live in Florida (especially on the coasts), you will notice all the "expert's" commercials. These are meteorologists who have commercials on themselves with their affiliated TV company (NBC, ABC, Local news, etc.)... on these commercials, they tell you "John Smith; studying meteorology for over 30 years, and in the Bay Area for 20... he is the one you can trust...", or something along those lines. Of course, there were ranges from 10-20 hurricanes predicted for this year. We have had none. So, could it be that we really DON'T know everything about weather and things affiliated with it, but yet we try to pretend as if we really understand it?

As for college, I am not going. 

And for Rush Limbaugh, I listen to his talk radio show quite a bit. He has very interesting things to say. Is it perhaps he didn't go to school that he is not liked, becuase he makes a few million bux each year... 

I am really finding that almost everything discussed here is political, I notice that the majority of you are liberal, and that's basically why my views and ideas are not accepted by many... 

-Pat


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## couscous74 (Oct 21, 2006)

Mahon said:


> As for college, I am not going.
> -Pat



Yeah, college is just for a bunch of liberal know-it-all weenies anyways.
Pat, your parents are loaded, right?


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## Mahon (Oct 21, 2006)

couscous74 said:


> Yeah, college is just for a bunch of liberal know-it-all weenies anyways.
> Pat, your parents are loaded, right?



I chose not to go to college, because it does not appeal to me. Instead, I choose a more gauranteed future for myself, and have enlisted in the Navy for at least 8 years in IT as a Seaman Apprentice (E-2)... 

I do not wish to talk about my parents. Sorry. 

-Pat


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## paphioland (Oct 21, 2006)

the jive turkey said:


> I have some comments.
> 
> 
> the term "global warming" is political. I'm not sure about the other claims though. I'm not sure if you are talking about the way data is used by politicians which discredit theory on climate change or the theory itself is flawed. For the science, I posted some neat links below that you might take a look at.
> ...


Thomas,
Typing this sounds rude but it is not my intention.
If you read about Chaos theory and Heisenberg's uncertainty principle you should better understand what I'm saying. 

Just because you can measure these things there is huge error when you add all the measurements up. (The error comes from that a measurement can always be more accurate and you can never know the exact position and energy level of a particle without shooting a photon off it. If you do that you change the energy/velocity and postion of the particle anyways.) 

You are also not taking account how complicated weather is. Even if you view the earth as a closed system, which it is not it is still too complicated. You can break down aspects of the environment down but you can't add them together and figure out causally how they interact. There is no scientific determinism period. Until the uncertainty principle is dissproven that is the truth. So you can say in a small system that co2 raises the temperature to acertain degree in a vacuum to certain percentage degree of certainty.Usually to a very small percentage point of uncertainty. If you start making the system larger and more complicated requiring trillions of measurements the error is astounding. 
At best deterministic meteorlogy is an art/science, like medicine. Actually it is much more comlicated than medicine.
Physics is the science and trying to use the knowledge to predict how complicated systems act and then predict the future is an art.
If you through quantum mechanics into the measurements you are in for a world or uncertainty do to the probalistic nature of how small particles interact. Basically physics is only good at figuring out simple systems and the motion of larger objects. There is still error in our measurements but they are usually insignificant for what we need them for.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Oct 22, 2006)

To comment on just one point...the reason this year's hurricane season was less than predicted was because an El Nino developed in the Pacific....something that scientists will agree occurs independently of global warming (although it may contribute to the intensity of its effects...but El Nino effects are not severe in the eastern US...as you can see, it improves things for us...) Take care, Eric


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## aquacorps (Oct 22, 2006)

If God speaks to man, he undoubtedly uses the language of mathematics. Henri Poincare


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## Marco (Oct 22, 2006)

couscous74 said:


> Yeah, college is just for a bunch of liberal know-it-all weenies anyways.
> Pat, your parents are loaded, right?



hey nothing wrong with being liberal and being a weeny sometimes keeps you out of trouble oke: its somewhat kept me of trouble...i guess... on the other hand i did think my college experience was BS anyway.i barely use anything i learned in a practical manner. most of what i know is learned on job. I honestly think its just a way to keep people out of the labor force so that the people in it can have enough time to save up for retirement without having to worry about low pay from competition with people looking for jobs that wouldnt mind being paid less. I think almost anyone, granted they "must" have interest in the particular matter, can learn on the job. The only problem with this is it cuts down on effeciency. And a person must have a contact for a possible position. I bet if people are allowed to go straight into the work force without "technical training" give it a couple of years and all the big wigs making the big bucks who want to keep their pay and avoid the random prodigy from taken chunks from their compensation are gonna start pouring donations for lobbyists to push for some kind of law. paying money to keep money. doesnt make sense but whatever. like the farmers who dump tons of food in the water to maintain prices while people in africa and developing third world countries are starving. and people wonder why theres famine/deforestation and stuff. but thats a whole other story. The mechanics of our society sometimes really blows my mind away, actually any developed capitalistic society that is.Bottom line, no connections for a possible trainer no interest, college is a must. rich get richer and poor get poorer eh? oke:. 

**edited**sry major brain fart.... hope you guys dont mind but when i get on a thought it just keeps stringing along and stringing along and along and along. but i must stop cause i need to go read again. 



aquacorps said:


> If God speaks to man, he undoubtedly uses the language of mathematics. Henri Poincare









looks like my kinda math! without numbers oke:


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## SlipperFan (Oct 23, 2006)

I suppose college experience is like anything else: It depends on three things: the courses you take, the college you go to, and your attitude. The latter is probably the most important.


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## PHRAG (Oct 24, 2006)

Lance,

I wasn't sure how to respond to your comments implying I was somehow responsible for bullying Mahon in a previous thread. What I had attempted to do, was ask Pat to wait until his theories were more fully developed before launching them on people who are familiar with the works of the people he was quoting. He read my advice, and continued to do what he wanted. Simple as that. I don't believe I played any sort of role in bullying him. If he feels differently, I will apologize and that will be the end of it.

I have been making an honest attempt to be as non-confrontational as possible, since it seems a few of you believe that the free speech aspect of this forum only applies to someone not wearing an admin badge. I will continue to do so if I am not baited. It seems that I don't need to discuss what I think of you, as you do a fine job of showing forum members exactly who you are.


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## PHRAG (Oct 24, 2006)

By the way, I am on vacation, so any delay in responding to future thread posts is based solely on my lack of a decent internet connection.


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## the jive turkey (Oct 24, 2006)

paphioland said:


> Thomas,
> Typing this sounds rude but it is not my intention.
> If you read about Chaos theory and Heisenberg's uncertainty principle you should better understand what I'm saying.


What tha &@#$ did I step in?!
those were a lot of ideas in your post. Let me try to organize by showing some, um, neat things I found on the web (I'm just not smart enough to use my own words) 

Chaos theory


http://www.societyforchaostheory.org/tutorials/#1 said:


> WHAT IS CHAOS THEORY? Chaos theory is one of a set of approaches to study nonlinear phenomena. Specifically, chaos is a particular nonlinear dynamic wherein seemingly random events are actually predictable from simple deterministic equations. Thus, a phenomenon that appears locally unpredictable may indeed be globally stable, exhibit clear boundaries and display sensitivity to initial conditions. Small differences in initial states eventually compound to produce markedly different end states later on in time. The latter property is also known as The Butterfly Effect. Chaos has a close relationship to other dynamics, however, such as attractors, bifurcations, fractals, and self-organization.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle said:


> In quantum physics, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle or the Heisenberg indeterminacy principle — the latter name given to it by Niels Bohr — states that one cannot measure values (with arbitrary precision) of certain conjugate quantities, which are pairs of observables of a single elementary particle. The most familiar of these pairs is the position and momentum.




Scientific Determinism


paphioland said:


> There is no scientific determinism period. Until the uncertainty principle is dissproven that is the truth.


here are some different views


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_determinism said:


> Physicists have sometimes used the term "determinism" in a special way that people such as Karl Popper and Stephen Hawking have called scientific determinism.
> 
> Popper insisted that the term "scientific" can only be applied to statements that are falsifiable. Popper's book The Open Universe: An Argument For Indeterminism defines scientific determinism as the claim that ...any event can be rationally predicted, with any desired degree of precision, if we are given a sufficiently precise description of past events, together with all the laws of nature, a notion that Popper asserted was both falsifiable and adequately falsified by modern scientific knowledge.
> 
> "These quantum theories are deterministic in the sense that they give laws for the evolution of the wave with time. Thus if one knows the wave at one time, one can calculate it at any other time. The unpredictable, random element comes in only when we try to interpret the wave in terms of the positions and velocities of particles. But maybe this is our mistake: maybe there are no positions and velocities, but only waves. It is just that we try to fit the waves to our preconceived ideas of positions and velocities. The resulting mismatch is the cause of the apparent unpredictability." (conclusions section of A Brief History Of Time)



global warming part (I added punctuation and parenthesis):


paphioland said:


> . . . You can break down aspects of the environment, but, you can't add them together and figure out causally how they interact. So (while) you can say in a small system that co2 raises the temperature to a certain degree in a vacuum with a certain percentage of certainty, there is usually a very small percentage of uncertainty (built in).


well . . . 

Limits of Meteorology and study of the weather (I added punctuation):


paphioland said:


> At best deterministic meteorlogy is an art/science, like medicine. Actually, it is much more comlicated than medicine. Physics tries to use knowledge to predict how complicated systems act, and, then predict the future, (an art.) If you _threw _quantum mechanics into the measurements, you are in for a world or uncertainty do to the probalistic nature of how small particles interact.


. . . then that's probably why quantum mechanics isn't used to forcast weather. There are apparently differently methods of meteorology other than deterministic. Try this link:
http://www.bom.gov.au/bmrc/wefor/staff/eee/verif/verif_web_page.html#Introduction


http://www.bom.gov.au/bmrc/wefor/staff/eee/verif/verif_web_page.html#Introduction said:


> Describes methods for forecast verification, including their characteristics, pros and cons. The methods range from simple traditional statistics and scores, to methods for more detailed diagnostic and scientific verification.
> ...
> What is "truth" when verifying a forecast?
> The "truth" data that we use to verify a forecasts generally comes from observational data. These could be rain gauge measurements, temperature observations, satellite-derived cloud cover, geopotential height analyses, and so on.
> ...



i lifted some of your coments so they make sense to me:


paphioland said:


> Just because you can measure these things there is huge error when you add all the measurements up . . . If you start making the system larger and more complicated, requiring trillions of measurements, the error is astounding. . .There is still error in our measurements but they are usually insignificant for what we need them for.


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## Marco (Oct 24, 2006)

lol @ jive its keeping you active here so its cool oke:


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## paphioland (Oct 24, 2006)

the jive turkey said:


> What tha &@#$ did I step in?!
> those were a lot of ideas in your post. Let me try to organize by showing some, um, neat things I found on the web (I'm just not smart enough to use my own words)
> 
> Chaos theory
> ...




Don't know the points of these quotes. some of them actually support what I am saying. 

If scientific determinism is defined as using science to predict the future based on passed events until the Uncertainty principle is dissproven it is not possible based on modern scientic knowledge. This is not to say that the universe is or isn't deterministic we just can't predict the future based on the past even if there is determinism. Einstien didn't believe in the uncertainty principle by instinct but after the overwhelming logic of the idea and his inability to dissprove it he later agreed with it.


Read the whole description of chaos theory in Wilkipedia. It doesn't dissprove anything I say. It actually supports what I am saying.

Weather forcasting is really accurate.  Try to predict the weather a month from now.

The basis of everything is physics.

I can't even argue with the rest of you quotes would take too long. You will just have to believe I know what I am talking about or not.


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## paphioland (Oct 24, 2006)

If it is not possible to predict the weather one month from now how can you tell me the exact causes of global warming and the proportions, how they interact, and predict its course


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## paphioland (Oct 24, 2006)

Quote:
Originally Posted by paphioland
Just because you can measure these things there is huge error when you add all the measurements up . . . If you start making the system larger and more complicated, requiring trillions of measurements, the error is astounding. . .There is still error in our measurements but they are usually insignificant for what we need them for. 


I am saying that in simple closed systems there is still error in our measurements but they are usually insignificant for what we need them for. Like how we use physics to manipulate our world. I am not talking about chaotic systems, which after reading Wiki you should know what those are.


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## paphioland (Oct 24, 2006)

Did you read the thing on determinism and scientific determinism. I am not debating determinism I am just saying there is no scientific determinism. Your quote does not dissprove or even disagree with what I said. read the whole thing in wiki.
Also stephen Hawkings random thought with no proof about there possibly being no position or velocity is crap. The uncertainty principle till this day has stood, until disproven there is no Absolute scientific determinism period.

"Hawking admits that even the uncertainty principle does not absolutely rule-out a kind of determinism "in principle"."

Hawkings does not believe in scientific determinsim he is just trying to sound smart in his pop physics book and offer a totally nonsupported idea


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## paphioland (Oct 24, 2006)

You will not find one reputable physicist who will tell you that with the current scientific knowledge that scientific determinism is accepted. Also you will not find one who says that we have the ability to use scientific determinism to accurately predict all aspects of a choatic system like weather.


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## Heather (Oct 24, 2006)

Lance Birk said:


> I will also support Rush Limbaugh, who I heard quote a passage from my Paphiopedilum book last week. Rush speaks continuously about moral and traditional values. I have never heard him speak anything but truth. He, also, is highly intelligent and is undeservedly criticized by people who neither know him nor listen to him.




Oh yes, and Michael J. Fox is just acting out his Parkinson's.  Honestly...do the right thing on the 7th, people. Please.


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Oct 24, 2006)

I listen to Rush all the time, it's one of the more humerous things on the air. I especially love when someone makes a good point and he hangs up on them or else talks over them trying to keep them from making him look like the morose jackass he is.

As per the 7th, I've got some constitutional ammendments to knock down trying to further take away smoker's rights.

Jon
________
YAMAHA PSR-248 SPECIFICATIONS


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## Mahon (Oct 24, 2006)

...yet again, political opinions...


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