# Kovachii hybrids



## Bjorn (Jun 28, 2011)

Got some Cirila Alca and Eumelia Arias the other day. I am a little confused regarding potting medium, with or without limestone? Does anyone have experience with the above hybrids? What about other hybrids like Haley Decker?
Bjorn


----------



## e-spice (Jun 28, 2011)

I grow Haley Decker and Cirila Alca semi-hydroponically without any limestone. I use the MSU fertilizer formula which has a decent amount of calcium if I'm not mistaken. Although some might disagree, I have found the kovachii crosses to be pretty vigorous and easy to grow. I grew the Haley Decker from a very small seedling and now it blooms several times a year now. The Cirila Alca is still pretty small - I bought it less than a year ago.


----------



## Shiva (Jun 28, 2011)

In my experience, kovachii hybrids grow just as well as other phrags with the exception of Cirila Alca which does the same as it's kovachii parent. It grows a leaf and loses one and on and on. In more than two years, it's still the same size.


----------



## NYEric (Jun 28, 2011)

I'm growing some of my seedlings like Lien Liu, in sphagnum moss with styrofoam peanuts underneath. The post sit in water up to the level of the top of the peanuts. Others I'm growing like Orchids limited in a mix of dolomite and rockwool. Larger plants are in whatever they come in. The ones from piping rock seem to have some small gravel in the mix. others come w/ oyster shell.


----------



## mormodes (Jun 28, 2011)

NYEric said:


> I'm growing some of my seedlings like Lien Liu, in sphagnum moss with styrofoam peanuts underneath. The post sit in water up to the level of the top of the peanuts. Others I'm growing like Orchids limited in a mix of dolomite and rockwool. Larger plants are in whatever they come in. The ones from piping rock seem to have some small gravel in the mix. others come w/ oyster shell.



Do you notice any differences in size, vitality between these media?

I have a seedlings of Fritz Schomberg that's just been lingering in sphagnum moss. No growth, smaller seedlings from the flask have succumbed. I was going to repot into something different when this thread started. So I figured I'd see what y'all thought before I did something potentially stupid.


----------



## Bjorn (Jun 29, 2011)

The plants were quite well developed, particularly the Eumelia Arias were multigrowth, the Ciricla Alca was a two-lead. Quite similar to kovachii btw.
They came from Peruflora, we had an import from them the other day. Some very nice plants indeed.
The question is basically about pH of the substrate. Without limestone, it gets fairly low typical substrate for bessae, schlimii etc, with limestone it should be neutral or slightly alkaline, try to mimic the kovachii conditions.
Making hybrids of schlimii and kovachii (=Eumelia Arias) raises the question: what pH should you give those plants? Are they fine with shlimii conditions or is the kovachii dominant? That is the question gentlemen(and ladies).
Just to make sure, I planted one of each in both mixes. So time will show which gets the best roots.
Bjorn


----------



## e-spice (Jun 29, 2011)

Here are the roots on my Phrag. Haley Decker. It is like that all around the pot. It just finished blooming and is in spike again. I described how it is grown in a post above. Like I said, I grew it from a tiny seedling that I got from Piping Rock when they first came out in 2006 or 2007. It was so small I was scared it would come apart in my hands when I first repotted it.

I don't do any limestone addition or pH tinkering. Just S/H medium, R/O water with a very dilute MSU-type fertilizer, and light from a high pressure sodium lamp. I have found it is easier and more practical to try to emulate what another grower was successful with rather than trying to estimate the conditions occurring in nature (which can't do for hybrids anyway).


----------



## Bjorn (Jun 29, 2011)

Looks convincing, great roots, how is your water? R-O, well, hard/soft etc?


----------



## goldenrose (Jun 29, 2011)

Bjorn said:


> ...
> The question is basically about pH of the substrate. Without limestone, it gets fairly low typical substrate for bessae, schlimii etc, with limestone it should be neutral or slightly alkaline, try to mimic the kovachii conditions.
> Making hybrids of schlimii and kovachii (=Eumelia Arias) raises the question: what pH should you give those plants? Are they fine with shlimii conditions or is the kovachii dominant? That is the question gentlemen(and ladies).
> Just to make sure, I planted one of each in both mixes. So time will show which gets the best roots.
> Bjorn


If they're multi-growth plants then it sounds like they aren't too picky. 
I guess plant size at this point in time, would be an indication if it's kovachii dominant. I got a flask from Chuck Acker last year, if they were any way near ready to seperate I'd do what you did. Another option is to add limestone gradually & see how it goes. One question arises in my mind - what would you expect to see if it were hindering the plant(s)?


----------



## e-spice (Jun 29, 2011)

I have RO water.


----------



## NYEric (Jun 29, 2011)

mormodes said:


> Do you notice any differences in size, vitality between these media?
> 
> I have a seedlings of Fritz Schomberg that's just been lingering in sphagnum moss. No growth, smaller seedlings from the flask have succumbed. I was going to repot into something different when this thread started. So I figured I'd see what y'all thought before I did something potentially stupid.



I have to check to see if I did a varied media test with the same crosses. Just so you know I've killed bunches of small Pk hybrid plants from Peruflora and others. The fact that they're doing better in the 2 media mixes I mentioned is enough to keep me happy at this point!


----------



## goldenrose (Jun 29, 2011)

I wish more were chiming in. This thread made me go check out my compot, I recieved the flask 9/15/10, used a fine seedling bark mix. A couple of chunks of bark were a bit spongy so I decided to repot. There was one that had enough of a root system to pot by itself. Half had decent roots, half so-so. What I found interesting/different about these guys is there were little plantlets growing off the roots of larger ones which was making repotting interesting. I'm at a loss for proper terminology, the opposite of climbing the big growths were on top, new growth off stolons? I used orchidata bark/tiny lava rock/perlite, a mix our orchid club makes up & sells. So now to lime or not?
Got a mini compot of Cirila Alca from a source here on the forum, as did others. They came in sphagnum, they did nothing, they croaked in sphagnum. I've gotten mini compots from Chuck - Andean Tears & Incan Treasure, didn't have any trouble with them, although other people have grown them to BS faster than I, but they didn't croak, so why not try a flask?!


----------



## Bjorn (Jun 30, 2011)

> If they're multi-growth plants then it sounds like they aren't too picky.
> I guess plant size at this point in time, would be an indication if it's kovachii dominant. I got a flask from Chuck Acker last year, if they were any way near ready to seperate I'd do what you did. Another option is to add limestone gradually & see how it goes. One question arises in my mind - what would you expect to see if it were hindering the plant(s)?


The plants were coming bare-root so no indication of what they had been growing in previously. The Eumelia Arias were quite big, must have been some 6-8lead plants appearance/habit similar to a mature schlimii, the Cicrila Alca looked just like a kovachii with one old and one well developed new lead, leaf-span 12-13cm (5inch) width 3-4cm(1.5inch). From the appearance one could say that the EA should be without lime the other with limestone. BUT is it that easy??
I suspect that there might not be any connections betwee the looks of the leaves and the requirements of the roots, - or am I wrong??
Ok time will show, in a years time the condition of the roots/plants will tell more about this. If they like the compost they will grow, if the pH is not to their liking they will suffer. Possibly they can take both?


----------



## Bjorn (Oct 11, 2011)

Update:
After insecting the plants in limestone-containingt vs non-limestone potting, the answer seems obvious: This one is the Eumelia Arias without limestone:





Not easy to judge, but compare with this one, the same but in limestone mix:





With lime in the mix the roots sprawl out of the pot, without barely root growth. Below is the Cirila Alca grown with limestone: The white stuff is limestone(marble)





and without:




I did an repotting into limestone containing mix and the roots were quite small but not dead in the acid compost.


----------



## Rick (Oct 11, 2011)

Bjorn said:


> Got some Cirila Alca and Eumelia Arias the other day. I am a little confused regarding potting medium, with or without limestone? Does anyone have experience with the above hybrids? What about other hybrids like Haley Decker?
> Bjorn



Probably need to define your form of limestone. Big chips (about 1/2- 1" or so) of a hard limestone for road construction won't do much for general media pH, but great for drainage. I expect that if roots contact the chips they can develop a healthy rhyzosphere and maintain a neutral pH at the surface of these large chips.

If you get crushed/soft limestone fines (close to sand) that would help with general media pH.

I have a kovachii (species) in basket. Mostly moss (some live too) with limestone chips, silica sand, and "cichlid sand" (pH buffering aragonite sand). I've only had the plant a few months, but growing well.

My irrigation and fertilizing regimes are in other threads.


----------



## Rick (Oct 11, 2011)

We've seen coarse marble chips used in water treatment reactors instead of true limestone, and they really didn't do anything for pH control.

If you are seeing a big difference in the pH of the pots, I would suspect it is from the fast rate of water coming through the pot with the chips rather than any chemical buffer released from the marble.


----------



## Bjorn (Oct 12, 2011)

Sorry Rick, forgot to say that the mix contains all limestone and dolomite of sizes from lumps down to milled fractions typ 200 mesh size. I would be surprised if it did not influence pH of the (water in the) mix. The sphagnum in the pic is just on top to give some added humidty locally.
The proof of the pudding would of course be to measure pH of the mix, but since I am a slow mover I have not yet done that, even if it should be relatively easy as I do have access to all necessary hardware and chemicals.
One day I'll do it. Promise:rollhappy:


----------



## Rick (Oct 12, 2011)

Bjorn said:


> Sorry Rick, forgot to say that the mix contains all limestone and dolomite of sizes from lumps down to milled fractions typ 200 mesh size. I would be surprised if it did not influence pH of the (water in the) mix. The sphagnum in the pic is just on top to give some added humidty locally.
> The proof of the pudding would of course be to measure pH of the mix, but since I am a slow mover I have not yet done that, even if it should be relatively easy as I do have access to all necessary hardware and chemicals.
> One day I'll do it. Promise:rollhappy:



I think you may have it covered if you also have soft limestone and dolomite down to 200 mesh.

The dolomite will provide a healthy dose of magnesium too.

Some people call marble "limestone", but marble is metamorphic limestone. Heated and compressed so the calcite melts and recrystallizes and becomes very hard.

Its kind of like comparing pig or cast iron to tempered steel.


----------



## wonderlen3000 (Oct 17, 2011)

Thanks for the threat. I just got a Phrag. Fritz Scomburg this weekend from a show and looking for kovachii hybrid culture.


----------



## NYEric (Oct 17, 2011)

wonderlen3000 said:


> Thanks for the threat.


 "No limestone for you!" oke: 
I see the difference in the root growth; maybe the non-limestone is doing more leaf growth. that would be interesting to measure.


----------

