# How can i identify a 4N?



## Peru (Oct 20, 2017)

Hi guys, i was wondering if theres a way to identify a 4N orchid w/o using any expensive test. Tnx in advance


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## naoki (Oct 20, 2017)

Chromosome counting is not expensive (well as long as you have a compound microscope). It is very tedious, and time consuming.

If it doesn't have to be accurate, you can take a look at the guard cell size of the stomata. In many plants, the cell size is correlated with the nuclear size. Eliseo has posted some of his trials. You can paint a small area of the bottom side of the leaf with nail polish. After drying it for 5-10min, you can put a scotch tape on top of it, and peel it off. Then you can observe the impression there. You'll need 100-400x magnification.

Flow cytometry is really cheap and easy if you have an access to the machine (e.g. biol. dept. of university).


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## xiphius (Oct 22, 2017)

naoki said:


> Flow cytometry is really cheap and easy if you have an access to the machine (e.g. biol. dept. of university).



Lol. I would say not so much unless you know someone in the lab that owns the instrument. The instrument is very expensive and a lot of universities/departments charge hourly usage fees to keep up with maintenance costs. It's been a while, but I think our department charges like $60-$80/hour for the flow cytometer. So probably not super feasible.

Good to know about the guard cell stuff though! Interesting.


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## naoki (Oct 23, 2017)

xiphius said:


> Lol. I would say not so much unless you know someone in the lab that owns the instrument. The instrument is very expensive and a lot of universities/departments charge hourly usage fees to keep up with maintenance costs. It's been a while, but I think our department charges like $60-$80/hour for the flow cytometer. So probably not super feasible.
> 
> Good to know about the guard cell stuff though! Interesting.



That is a lot of charge! Yours is probably a fancy one with a high service contract. Ours is also relatively high end, but we couldn't justify the high yearly contract, so they are off the contract. For estimating c-Value of DNA, the cheapest simple machine is sufficient, and I wish ours is the simplest one which doesn't break easily...


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## littlefrog (Oct 24, 2017)

naoki said:


> That is a lot of charge! Yours is probably a fancy one with a high service contract. Ours is also relatively high end, but we couldn't justify the high yearly contract, so they are off the contract. For estimating c-Value of DNA, the cheapest simple machine is sufficient, and I wish ours is the simplest one which doesn't break easily...



If it breaks all the time it is easy to justify the service contract... We once had a 30 year old centrifuge that failed at least 3 times a year, but it was cheaper to get the service contract than a new one. I have no idea why they kept selling us the contract, but it was costing them thousands of dollars a year.


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## xiphius (Oct 24, 2017)

naoki said:


> That is a lot of charge! Yours is probably a fancy one with a high service contract.



Yeah, I think it is a higher-end model. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a service contract for it (I think most of the equipment that is shared by multiple labs have service contracts). No idea how much it costs, but I bet it isn't cheap.


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