# Phrag schlimii 'Wilcox' AM/AOS



## parvi_17 (Feb 27, 2007)

One of my absolute favorites - I just bought it this weekend at my society's annual show. Top pic is at show, bottom at home!

Thanks for looking


----------



## kentuckiense (Feb 27, 2007)

Looks really really awesome! Congrats on the purchase! I may have to pick up one of these sometime. How's the size?

Were you aware that the plant is actually Phrag. Cardinale 'Wilcox' AM/AOS? Anyone know how long ago that error happened?


----------



## Jon in SW Ohio (Feb 27, 2007)

kentuckiense said:


> Were you aware that the plant is actually Phrag. Cardinale 'Wilcox' AM/AOS? Anyone know how long ago that error happened?



Not sure of the exact date...but it goes back to lithographs if that's any indication.

Beautiful pictures! No matter the name, a must in every collection:clap: 

Jon


----------



## kentuckiense (Feb 27, 2007)

Jon in SW Ohio said:


> Beautiful pictures! No matter the name, a must in every collection:clap:



Exactly! A loooooong time ago Marcus offered me one for free. However, I had just taken someone else up on a freebie offer and didn't want to be a plant hog.


----------



## parvi_17 (Feb 27, 2007)

Kentuckiense, yes I was aware of that - I heard the error happened around 100 years ago. Thanks for the compliments everyone!


----------



## kentuckiense (Feb 27, 2007)

parvi_17 said:


> Kentuckiense, yes I was aware of that - I heard the error happened around 100 years ago. Thanks for the compliments everyone!



Ok, cool. I always hate bringing that up when people post that plant. It's hard to point it out without sounding like a jerk.


----------



## Ron-NY (Feb 27, 2007)

very nice!! I added one to my collection last year...waiting for it to spike for me.


----------



## NYEric (Feb 28, 2007)

Yep. always liked the color and shape of that one.


----------



## Heather (Feb 28, 2007)

This is a gorgeous plant but the naming really annoys me. 
I brought it up at our ribbon judging because this so-called "schlimii" was competion for my besseaes in the species class! 

Luckily, the rest of the team really liked my bessies and we didn't ribbon the imposter. :evil:


----------



## NYEric (Feb 28, 2007)

Was that really in w/ species?!?


----------



## Heather (Feb 28, 2007)

Yup, the AOS judge on my team told me that because it was awarded as schlimii the name takes precedence.


----------



## Kyle (Feb 28, 2007)

I think that there is some serious problems with the logic in the Judges desicion to keep that plant in the species class. If they know a plant is mislabled, they should not perpetuate the mistake. I haven't been present for many jusdging sessions, but the I do remember plants being disqualified for being mislbled and therefore in the wrong class. 

I find it hard to believe that the rule is for it to remain Phrag schlimii forever, its wrong for so many reasons. 

I think every grower should rename their plants Sedenii 'wilcox'. Of course the award isn't applicable any more. 

I can't believe the AOS would have this stance on an acknowledged mislabled plant.

Kyle


----------



## Heather (Feb 28, 2007)

I will elaborate. I voiced my dismay that it was in the wrong class and she told me what I wrote above, however, she added "let's see if it's even worthy of a ribbon and then worry about the class it's in". It wasn't so it became a non-issue. 

I totally agree that it should be up to the growers to make sure their plant is labeled and enterred correctly. It amazes me how many people who have been growing plants for years, and who know about 'Wilcox' and 'Birchwood' and STILL continue to post photos year after year on these forums as schlimii and not Cardinale!


----------



## Kyle (Feb 28, 2007)

Right, Cardinal. My mistake.

I'm glad it was a non issue. I just can't believe the judges would allow a mistake like that. Isn't part of there mandate to educate people?

Maybe littlefrog can shed some light on this.

Kyle


----------



## slippertalker (Feb 28, 2007)

This clone of Phrag Cardinale was awarded in 1972 at the 17th Eastern Orchid Conference in Hartford, Ct as Phrag schlimii. "Birchwood" was awarded under Phrag schlimii a year earlier in St. Louis and is also probably Phrag Cardinale. I would guess that both of these clones had been in existence for a number of years before they received the award. Interestingly enough Phrag Cardinale "Birchwood" is awarded both under Cardinale and schlimii so there were some judges that understood what this was.

Specimens of true schlimii have been fairly rare until the 1970's, and the specimens of Cardinale were labeled as schlimii. That's where the confusion started---mislabeled plants. If you have seen the plants side by side (or not), they are totally different. 

Most judges today are very aware of this problem, know what the difference is between the two. I'm an AOS judge and see mislabeled plants in almost every show I judge. If these misidentified plants are used in future breeding, the progeny will look different from the "true" crosses. I'm sure that it's already happened many times, but once the error is made the cat is out of the bag.

If I were on the ribbon team and saw Phrag Cardinale in a species category, I wouldn't consider it for the ribbon since it was misclassified.


----------



## parvi_17 (Mar 1, 2007)

Heather said:


> I will elaborate. I voiced my dismay that it was in the wrong class and she told me what I wrote above, however, she added "let's see if it's even worthy of a ribbon and then worry about the class it's in". It wasn't so it became a non-issue.
> 
> I totally agree that it should be up to the growers to make sure their plant is labeled and enterred correctly. It amazes me how many people who have been growing plants for years, and who know about 'Wilcox' and 'Birchwood' and STILL continue to post photos year after year on these forums as schlimii and not Cardinale!



This is an annoying issue; I still name it as schlimii because I've heard that the plant's identity is both Sedenii and Cardinale on separate occasions from different people, yet other clones of both these plants look nothing like this one that I've seen (though I've seen plants labeled as Cardinale or Sedenii with no clone name that are actually this one). I've also never seen the documentation that proves this plant IS Cardinale or Sedenii. However, it is obviously a hybrid and growers should absolutely enter it in the right category!


----------



## NYEric (Mar 2, 2007)

Time for a DNA check.


----------



## Kyle (Mar 2, 2007)

I don't think anyone disputes that it isn't schlimiii. But DNA test to prove what hybrid it is.

Kyle


----------



## Grandma M (Mar 2, 2007)

I have a plant labeled -----schlimii ‘BIRCHWOOD’ AM/AOS

This is what was listed on the web site of the grower.

This AM/AOS plant is worth seeing! Probably a Cardinale backcrossed to schlimii; this is a beautiful sequential blooming plant. 

What do I really have? Should i change the label.


----------



## NYEric (Mar 2, 2007)

Neither the Birchwood nor the Wilcox is schlimii.


----------



## Heather (Mar 2, 2007)

You have a Cardinale.


----------

