# What is a "true" manzurii?



## eteson (Jan 8, 2015)

The differences between manzurii and schlimii are usually not so obvious and it is not easy to put a sharp line between the two “species”. When you see a true manzurii it is clear that it is something different from schlimii but it is much more usual to find plants that are in between the two end members and sharing characteristics from both… Olaf Gruβ named this entities x Colombianum and proposed it being a natural hybrid of manzurii X schlimii and described it as very rare in nature. During the last years we have found that this is more common that initially was thought and I am thinking that it could be not the natural hybrid but something evolving from a common antecessor because manzurii and schlimii end members do not share habitat. These middle members are usually sold as manzurii here in Colombia and I think that some of the “manzurii” that have reached Europe and the US are not the true thing. I´ve been “hunting” true manzurii plants for a while and so far I have got only three (of about 30 that I got labelled as manzurii...).
I have noticed that the staminode trends to be inverted heart shaped if grown cold and trends to be squarer if grown warm to hot. The more characteristic feature of the “manzurii end member” is the pouch shape, especially the upper part around the pouch “hole”… it tends to be acute and with small dentations while in schlimii it tends to be more globular, flat in the upper part and with less evident dentations.
Yesterday a friend arrived to my house with a nice gift… it is the closest plant to the manzurii holotype I’ve never seen. And looking the pictures it is easier understand what a true manzurii is.


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## NYEric (Jan 8, 2015)

OK, self it! 
Nice gift BTW!!!


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## tomkalina (Jan 8, 2015)

Beautiful photos! Section micropetalum in Colombia is so in need of taxonomic study - maybe during Olaf's visit some of this can be done. You are fortunate to be able to visit the (relatively) nearby habitats.....


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## MorandiWine (Jan 8, 2015)

I am loving all of these species you are sharing!!!

tyler


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## abax (Jan 9, 2015)

Yes! Exactly what MorandiWine said. I'm really enjoying all the "new"
finds being posted lately.


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## Drorchid (Jan 9, 2015)

Thanks for the pictures and the info! Very interesting!

Based on your description that there are a lot of "intermediary" forms between "manzurii" and "schlimii", I don't think "manzurii" is a true species, but rather that it belongs within the "complex" of schlimii, and that in fact schlimii is a very variable species that has a lot of different sub populations spread over a wide area. Some of these "sub-populations" over time have evolved into their own species, as they have probably been isolated or separated long enough that no cross breeding has taken place. I would consider "anguloi" and "fischeri" to be examples of those, and I would consider them to be "true" species. manzurii in my mind is still too close to schlimii (especially as you have all these intermediate forms, which implies there is gene flow occuring between the populations). I would be more inclined to call the true "manzuri" a "form" or a "variety" of schlimii...come back in 10,000 years, and yes, it will probably evolve into a new species!


Robert


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## eteson (Jan 9, 2015)

Drorchid said:


> Thanks for the pictures and the info! Very interesting!
> 
> Based on your description that there are a lot of "intermediary" forms between "manzurii" and "schlimii", I don't think "manzurii" is a true species, but rather that it belongs within the "complex" of schlimii, and that in fact schlimii is a very variable species that has a lot of different sub populations spread over a wide area. Some of these "sub-populations" over time have evolved into their own species, as they have probably been isolated or separated long enough that no cross breeding has taken place. I would consider "anguloi" and "fischeri" to be examples of those, and I would consider them to be "true" species. manzurii in my mind is still too close to schlimii (especially as you have all these intermediate forms, which implies there is gene flow occuring between the populations). I would be more inclined to call the true "manzuri" a "form" or a "variety" of schlimii...come back in 10,000 years, and yes, it will probably evolve into a new species!
> 
> ...



Hi Robert, thanks a lot,
This is exactly my point... I´ve always considered the manzurii as a end member of the schlimii complex. I am working in documenting the intermediate forms between manzurii and schlimii. I do have a quite big amount of material but I need much more..


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## Drorchid (Jan 9, 2015)

We have probably one of those "intermediate" forms of schlimii and manzurii in our collection, and have had it for more than 15 years, long before manzurii or x colombianum was described. This form of schlimii (which I believe is a wild collected plant, or a first generation seedling) has a lot of yellow pigments in the petals and even in the pouch. Phrag. schlimii 'Golden Halo':





Robert


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## MorandiWine (Jan 9, 2015)

Going off of what you have said about anguloi I would say that it is a unique species. Referring to the statement that the hybrids using that plant are more vigorous in-vitro than the straight species.

Tyler


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2


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## eteson (Jan 9, 2015)

Robert your plant is a very nice example of the intermediate forms. Most likely it is a wild collected plant because 15 to 10 years ago a huge amount of wild collected plants where exported and very few people was really interested in Phrag reproduction and conservation... in any case it is a very nice plant.

Tyler, I have no doubts about anguloi being a true species... this was the reason why I pushed the description... do you mean manzurii?

You are right about the hybrids usually are much more vigorous in-vitro and ex-vitro than the straight species... I think that this is particularly true for the primary hybrids....


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## SlipperFan (Jan 9, 2015)

Interesting discussion. Thanks.


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## goods (Jan 9, 2015)

Could this range of populations potentially represent a ring species situation where schlimii and what is being called the "true" manzurii are actually distinct species (maybe these populations are too far away from one another for direct gene flow), but there is a ring of populations connecting the two where gene flow does exist?

Something like:

A---B---C---D---E---F

where each letter represents a population. "A" is schlimii, and "F" is manzurii. "B,C,D,E" are intermediaries. Each population has gene flow with only the populations directly to the left or right of one another, so little to very few of "A" genes ever make it to "F".


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## eteson (Jan 11, 2015)

Goods, this is a good point thanks a lot for your input. I am trying to get some more data... because the more I know the less understand...


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## SlipperFan (Jan 12, 2015)

eteson said:


> Goods, this is a good point thanks a lot for your input. I am trying to get some more data... because the more I know the less understand...



I am so glad to hear you say that! I sure am in that same boat!!!


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## Drorchid (Jan 13, 2015)

goods said:


> Could this range of populations potentially represent a ring species situation where schlimii and what is being called the "true" manzurii are actually distinct species (maybe these populations are too far away from one another for direct gene flow), but there is a ring of populations connecting the two where gene flow does exist?
> 
> Something like:
> 
> ...



That is EXACTLY how I see how it works!

Robert


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## Phrag-Plus (Jan 18, 2015)

eteson said:


> Goods, this is a good point thanks a lot for your input. I am trying to get some more data... because the more I know the less understand...



Very interesting post!


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## eteson (Nov 6, 2015)

Hien, Here are the pictures again.


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## NYEric (Nov 6, 2015)

The dark spot in the staminodal shield is a diff shape and manzurii always seemed to be 'greener' than schlimii to me. I know color is not a distinguishing factor but..


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## abapple (Nov 6, 2015)

Eliseo: have you seen the pictures of manzurii I posted earlier this week? I would be interested what you think of them as being true manzurii


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## eteson (Nov 6, 2015)

Hi abapple,
It is hard to say from the pictures... can you take more detailed pictures of the pouch from the side? Chuck has at least a true one (Waunakee). Not sure about Warrior. 

Enviado desde mi SGH-I337M mediante Tapatalk


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## trdyl (Nov 7, 2015)

Thanks for reposting the photos. 
Eliseo, from what you have seen are most manzurii fragrant?


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## eteson (Nov 7, 2015)

trdyl said:


> Thanks for reposting the photos.
> Eliseo, from what you have seen are most manzurii fragrant?



The holotype is very fragant, much more than the regular schlimii and the scent is so nice, something like rose+honey. The others I have seen are also scented but not as strong as the pale form.


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## Achamore (Nov 7, 2015)

Very interesting thread..!


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