# Phrag longifolium albino



## slippertalker (Aug 13, 2012)

as promised, this was a seedling from Tom Kalina from his selfing:


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## Spaph (Aug 13, 2012)

Wow! What incredible green, great growing from flask and true alba!


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## eaborne (Aug 13, 2012)

Outstanding!


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## Silvan (Aug 14, 2012)

I love that green color. But I'm not sure I'd grow it though.. How long as it take to get from seedling to flowering size ?


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## Shiva (Aug 14, 2012)

This is very nice!


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## SlipperKing (Aug 14, 2012)

Nice one Bill. How does the size of the flower compare to the standard ones?


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## Susie11 (Aug 14, 2012)

Nice.


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## tomkalina (Aug 14, 2012)

Hi Bill,

As far as I know, your's is the first Phrag. longifolium fma album 'Fox Valley Mint' (x self) seedling to bloom, and it's beautiful. Great job of growing the seedling to blooming size! As far as culture, the seedlings are good growers under typical P. longifolium conditions - at least for us. Not sure if Bill did anything special, but it would be interesting to know. 

As a side note, this is one of the most difficult of Phrag species to grow out of flask. There were only ninety-one seedlings that reached saleable size out of eleven flasks! Once the survivors reached leaf spans of 6-7 inches, however, they grew like little weeds. Thanks for sharing!


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## eggshells (Aug 14, 2012)

Oh wow. Very nice. I think this is the first alba phrag that I saw.


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## slippertalker (Aug 14, 2012)

SlipperKing said:


> Nice one Bill. How does the size of the flower compare to the standard ones?



The flower is a bit smaller than the normal form, but I have hopes that it will get larger as the plant matures. The photos don't really show the rich greens of this flower.


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## slippertalker (Aug 14, 2012)

tomkalina said:


> Hi Bill,
> 
> As far as I know, your's is the first Phrag. longifolium fma album 'Fox Valley Mint' (x self) seedling to bloom, and it's beautiful. Great job of growing the seedling to blooming size! As far as culture, the seedlings are good growers under typical P. longifolium conditions - at least for us. Not sure if Bill did anything special, but it would be interesting to know.
> 
> As a side note, this is one of the most difficult of Phrag species to grow out of flask. There were only ninety-one seedlings that reached saleable size out of eleven flasks! Once the survivors reached leaf spans of 6-7 inches, however, they grew like little weeds. Thanks for sharing!



I didn't do anything special other than keep the roots wet like longifolium likes, but I do have very good water too. The plant is always in a small pool of water. This plant has one mature growth and 3 more that are about 3/4 of maturity. It is quite a lovely flower in person.....


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## slippertalker (Aug 14, 2012)

Silvan said:


> I love that green color. But I'm not sure I'd grow it though.. How long as it take to get from seedling to flowering size ?



I don't remember the exact time, but from a 6" seedling to blooming in about 1 1/2 years.


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## slippertalker (Aug 14, 2012)

eggshells said:


> Oh wow. Very nice. I think this is the first alba phrag that I saw.



The only other known albino phrag species is Phrag besseae flavum......


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## FrankRC (Aug 14, 2012)

tomkalina said:


> Hi Bill,
> 
> As far as I know, your's is the first Phrag. longifolium fma album 'Fox Valley Mint' (x self) seedling to bloom, and it's beautiful. Great job of growing the seedling to blooming size! As far as culture, the seedlings are good growers under typical P. longifolium conditions - at least for us. Not sure if Bill did anything special, but it would be interesting to know.
> 
> As a side note, this is one of the most difficult of Phrag species to grow out of flask. There were only ninety-one seedlings that reached saleable size out of eleven flasks! Once the survivors reached leaf spans of 6-7 inches, however, they grew like little weeds. Thanks for sharing!



Actually, the plant that you refer to as Phrag. longifolium fma album 'Fox Valley Mint' is actually Phrag. longifolium fma album 'Pepe'. It is a division of Pepe Portilla from Ecuagenera's longifolium album and you even aknowledged this on the other slipper orchid forum. With this knowledge Mr Kalina, you continue to perpetuate fraud. The plant is not and never was 'Fox Valley Mint'. Pepe verified this to you when you called him on the clonal name for his plant. In your rush for endless self promotion it seems you forgot about the real clonal name and the real owner of the mother plant...

Would you like me to repost your own words here?

I think its time to honestly represent the correct clonal name and origin of the plant don't you think?


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## tomkalina (Aug 14, 2012)

Hi Frank,

Glad to see you back on the forum; your self proclaimed expertise has been missed. Regardless of your opinion on this matter, there is no fraud here. There's no secret that Mr. Portilla was the original owner of our plant, but when we purchased a division, he can tell you there was no clonal name on the tag. When we were successful in selfing that un-named clone, I applied the 'Fox Valley Mint' clonal name. If Mr. Portilla would like us to change the clonal name 'Pepe' to reflect his ownership of the original plant, that's fine with me; he has only to ask. 

Best Regards, Tom


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## NYEric (Aug 14, 2012)

That's one sexy green Phrag. There are album schlimii also.


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## Cheyenne (Aug 14, 2012)

That is a very nice albino phrag. I wish there were more albino phrags.


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## tomkalina (Aug 14, 2012)

Cheyenne,

Wish there were more as well, but Bill is correct - long fma album and besseae fma flavum are the only ones we know of. Eric - the only white or almost white schlimiis we've seen are those bloomed under very warm conditions. When grown cool, however, the pink color returns on these clones. Our schlimii 'White Star' clone is one of these.

Thanks,


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## tomkalina (Aug 14, 2012)

Forgot to mention - we have about a dozen of the larger selfings remaining. Too few to list on the website, but anyone interested can PM me.


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## NYEric (Aug 14, 2012)

Then the ones used to make the St. Ouen 'Snow' must have been exceptional!


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## tomkalina (Aug 14, 2012)

Eric,

I think Bill was talking about species, not hybrids. :wink:


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## NYEric (Aug 14, 2012)

Of course, there are plenty of album-ish/flavum hybrids!


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## tomkalina (Aug 14, 2012)

Is this a word, "album-ish"?


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## NYEric (Aug 14, 2012)

Anything is a word if you use a hyphen!


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## Drorchid (Aug 14, 2012)

tomkalina said:


> Cheyenne,
> 
> Wish there were more as well, but Bill is correct - long fma album and besseae fma flavum are the only ones we know of. Eric - the only white or almost white schlimiis we've seen are those bloomed under very warm conditions. When grown cool, however, the pink color returns on these clones. Our schlimii 'White Star' clone is one of these.
> 
> Thanks,



I think there used to be a Phrag. schlimii albiflorum, which was an "almost" white schlimii, but unfortunately is now considered lost. Instead of having a pink pouch it had a white pouch, but looking at the painting, it looks like there where some pink/red pigments on the inside of the rim or pouch, so it was not a "true" album form.

for the picture see: 
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=586&page=3

Robert


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## John M (Aug 14, 2012)

I don't like longifolium (don't even own one).......But, I like this and I want it!!!!

Quick, put besseae v. flavum pollen on that and make some big, bright, concolor yellow Eric Youngs!


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## W. Beetus (Aug 14, 2012)

Awesome bloom! Stunning coloration.


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## John M (Aug 14, 2012)

Drorchid said:


> I think there used to be a Phrag. schlimii albiflorum, which was an "almost" white schlimii, but unfortunately is now considered lost.


 According to the discussion in the thread at the link posted, Ecuagenera had schlimii albiflorum in stock in 2006. Does anybody know if they lost them all; or, do they still have them. Or, did they even actually truly have this variety?


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## tomkalina (Aug 14, 2012)

Hi John,

Not sure if this clone actually exists. Kyle, you might chime in on this, since you spent a good deal of time with Ecuagenera. If so, do you have a photo? 

Thanks,


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## SlipperFan (Aug 14, 2012)

Good response, Tom. I'm glad you are watching this thread.

Bill, congrats on blooming this very unique species.


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## Kyle (Aug 14, 2012)

No, they never had any white schlimii. Just pale ones.

Congrats on the flower.


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## Cheyenne (Aug 15, 2012)

I don't know the story. Did this the longifolium pop up in a cross of colored ones or was it wild collectd originally?

Just like someone found out if you treat the protocorms with chemicals they can turn 4n, I wish someone would find a way to treat them to surpress their ability to make pigments. They would be very rich.


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## FrankRC (Aug 15, 2012)

tomkalina said:


> Hi Frank,
> 
> Glad to see you back on the forum; your self proclaimed expertise has been missed. Regardless of your opinion on this matter, there is no fraud here. There's no secret that Mr. Portilla was the original owner of our plant, but when we purchased a division, he can tell you there was no clonal name on the tag. When we were successful in selfing that un-named clone, I applied the 'Fox Valley Mint' clonal name. If Mr. Portilla would like us to change the clonal name 'Pepe' to reflect his ownership of the original plant, that's fine with me; he has only to ask.
> 
> Best Regards, Tom



I have never left the forum, nor have I "self proclaimed" any expertise. Unlike some, self aggrandizement has never been my style. If I can help I will. I think Pepe did in fact tell you the clonal name of the plant was "Pepe", and that it did indeed have a tag as such when you aquired the division. In fact, you did state that given the facts, you would change the clonal name back to "Pepe". On December 21, 2006 at 3:00 PM you posted on the SlipperOrchidForum:

"I've been in contact with the original owner of our Phrag. longifolium var album, Jose Portilla, and he informs me that he did breed the original plant under a different clonal name before we purchased a piece of it. Because of his prior use of this plant for breeding purposes. We will change our clonal name of `Fox Valley Mint' to `Pepe' to comply with current practices. The original owner also assured me that Fox Valley Orchids has the only division of this particular clone so I must assume yours has a different clonal name ? It would be great if there was more than one clone......."

So which is it, Pepe Portilla breed with the plant and it already has a clonal name and you are going to change the name back, or all of a sudden he told you there was no clonal name he did not breed with the plant? Fraud is knowing the plant had a clonal name, knowing the plant was used in breeding, and hijacking the clonal name. Sorry, but a spade is a spade.

This is not the first time someone has noticed a misrepresented clonal name on one of your plants is it?


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## tomkalina (Aug 15, 2012)

Bill - I apologize for Frank's hijacking of a thread that should have been a celebration of your growing skills, and appreciation of a beautiful plant in bloom, but this has been going on for years and I don't suppose it'll stop any time soon. 

Best, Tom


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## slippertalker (Aug 15, 2012)

No problems Tom, I didn't realize that this was such a point of contention. LOL, I will have my own name on this plant........

Thanks for sending such a vigorous seedling of a special variety.....

Bill


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## eaborne (Aug 16, 2012)

The flower is very nice and great job growing it out so fast.


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## Phrag-Plus (Aug 16, 2012)

slippertalker said:


> No problems Tom, I didn't realize that this was such a point of contention. LOL, I will have my own name on this plant........
> 
> Thanks for sending such a vigorous seedling of a special variety.....
> 
> Bill



That is just gorgeous! A real beauty! An that will be a great plant to put your name on it! :clap:

I’m too very happy to see it! I was worrying about the result of that selfing after seeing the Eric Young made with it… I can’t hardly wait to see mine in bloom now…

About the clone name, usually growers and especially breeders, use different name on their plants to recognise a particular plant. And for me I think it is normal when you have a business or a trade mark to use a particular name. But the knowledge of the source of the plan should be kept in our data for further demand. 

But in my opinion, considering a fraud to change an unregistered clone name is not quite right.. The word is a little bit to excessive, in fact it is more a question of regard than fraud… 

But I do agree, when buying a registered or an awarded plant, changing it’s name will be a fraud, we should never change a registered clone name.


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## tomkalina (Aug 16, 2012)

Hi Jean-Pierre,

I'm sure your's will be as beautiful as Bill's and you can apply whatever clonal name you wish. I, too, was a bit nervous after the first few Phrag. Eric Young (longifolium fma album x besseae fma flavum) sdlgs bloomed, especially when they were not the clear yellow that was expected, but with a good amount of pink mixed with the yellow. It was the same with our first yellow besseae selfing - which Guido said would be normally colored and not yellow. Thank God Guido was wrong, because I ended up having to guarantee the color would be yellow to the customers who spent a large amount of money for those flasks, or return the money! 

As far as a registered clonal name having priority, I agree completely. Regardless of the breeder, when you buy a plant with a clonal name attached, it should never be changed, especially if the plant was already used for breeding, otherwise we'd lose track of the plants breeding performance. But when you buy a plant without a clonal name on the tag and you plan to breed it you should attach a clonal name to it to separate it from others of the same species in your breeding program. If the original owner then contacts you and asks you to apply a different clonal name, it's up to you. If someone other than the original owner demands this be done, especially someone with a hidden agenda, then you have to use your best judgment. 

Interestingly enough, Mr. Portilla told me during a subsequent visit that a certain customer tried to buy a division of that clone at a much lower price, claiming it was the normally colored form. Luckily, someone recognized the plant for what it was and the transaction was stopped. 

Best Regards,


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## NYEric (Aug 17, 2012)

Hopefully someone  crossed the flavum Eric Youngs back onto each of the flavum parents!!!


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## tomkalina (Aug 17, 2012)

That's the plan, Eric......eventually, I'd like to have a clear, bright yellow Don Wimber.


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## eaborne (Aug 17, 2012)

I can't wait to see those and I hope you have some for sale on day!


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## biothanasis (Aug 18, 2012)

Wonderful flower!!!


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## John M (Aug 18, 2012)

eaborne said:


> I can't wait to see those and I hope you have some for sale on day!



Eron, check out page 2 of this thread; Tom says this: "Forgot to mention - we have about a dozen of the larger selfings remaining. Too few to list on the website, but anyone interested can PM me."

Happy shopping! 'Better hurry up and get one before they're all gone!


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## Rick (Aug 18, 2012)

clean and green!


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## John Boy (Aug 18, 2012)

Outstanding growing, and how about that sort of speed?! If only I could grown Phragmipediums well over time! One day.... and it will come.

Did any of these seedlings make it into Europe Tom???


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## phrag guy (Aug 19, 2012)

very nice indeed


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## eaborne (Aug 19, 2012)

Thanks John for mentioning that it must have been late when I read the thread. And since they weren't on the site, I assumed he was out.



John M said:


> Eron, check out page 2 of this thread; Tom says this: "Forgot to mention - we have about a dozen of the larger selfings remaining. Too few to list on the website, but anyone interested can PM me."
> 
> Happy shopping! 'Better hurry up and get one before they're all gone!


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## FrankRC (Aug 20, 2012)

tomkalina said:


> Hi Jean-Pierre,
> 
> If the original owner then contacts you and asks you to apply a different clonal name, it's up to you. If someone other than the original owner demands this be done, especially someone with a hidden agenda, then you have to use your best judgment.
> 
> Best Regards,



Not sure where you're going with this Mr. Kalina. The dictionary defines fraud, in part, as a breach of confidence for personal gain. The original clonal name always takes precedence, you conceded as much publically and indicated that you would change the clonal name back to "Pepe". In this matter, you did in fact confirm for yourself that the longifolium album was already used in breeding and the original owner did in fact tell you the clonal name was "Pepe" and wanted it changed back. You can dance around the subject all you want talking in circles about hidden agendas and rules that you make up as you go along, changing them to suit your own agenda. When you breach someone's confidence for your profit or gain, you are committing fraud. One can only assume that is where the moniker "Fraud Valley Orchids" comes from.

For those of you on the forum not familiar with that moniker there was a series of postings to the Orchid List Digest some years ago detailing a long line of such activities by Mr. Kalina and the author coined the term "Fraud Valley Orchids" to describe his dealings with Mr. Kalina.

Not only that, but it would appear Mr. Kalina both "loves it" when threads get hijacked and flips over to an apologist when the thread concerns his activities. There is a quote from Mr. Kalina as such on this forum not long ago...

The only agenda here is to protect the interests and reputation of a man and his business, a man who was kind enough to sell you a division of his plant only to have you replace his clonal name, and put the name of your business on his plant. When you sent the picture of the P. longifolium v. album to the Orchid Digest for publication, did the description include a note that the same was a division of Ecuagenera's plant? No, that piece of relevant information conveniently disappeared like Pepe's clonal name...

Hopefully now we can stop talking in circles and simply do the right thing.

For the forums reference here is Mr. Kalina's original posting on the subject. Judge for yourself:

December 21st, 2006, 03:00 PM #18 

tomkalina 
Gold Member



Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Tom in Villa Park, IL
Age: 71
Posts: 383
First Name: Tom
Interests: Slipper Orchids 
________________________________________
I've been in contact with the original owner of our Phrag. longifolium var album, Jose Portilla, and he informs me that he did breed the original plant under a different clonal name before we purchased a piece of it. Because of his prior use of this plant for breeding purposes. We will change our clonal name of `Fox Valley Mint' to `Pepe' to comply with current practices. The original owner also assured me that Fox Valley Orchids has the only division of this particular clone so I must assume yours has a different clonal name ? It would be great if there was more than one clone.......

Best Regards, 

tomkalina
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## tomkalina (Aug 20, 2012)

Give it up, Frank. It isn't working


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## FrankRC (Sep 10, 2012)

I didn't think you had a credible response Kalina. When does the fax go out telling your customers you stole Ecuagenera's clonal name? Not happenenig? Not surprised...


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## goldenrose (Sep 10, 2012)

:sob::sob::sob:
I've been rather absent from the forum this summer, things went from worse to bad, I'm not quite seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, yet but it's there! I'm having a hard time biting my tongue on this thread as I try to catch/keep up. Guys - isn't life too short? Is this really worth it? Aren't things going a bit too far? Thank You for making us aware of both sides of the coin, each individual on this forum can make up their own mind regarding this matter. Those that have purchased seedlings, know the history behind the breeding plant and now it's up to them to do what they think is appropriate.
JOB WELL DONE BILL! KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!


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## FrankRC (Sep 12, 2012)

goldenrose said:


> :sob::sob::sob:
> I've been rather absent from the forum this summer, things went from worse to bad, I'm not quite seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, yet but it's there! I'm having a hard time biting my tongue on this thread as I try to catch/keep up. Guys - isn't life too short? Is this really worth it? Aren't things going a bit too far? Thank You for making us aware of both sides of the coin, each individual on this forum can make up their own mind regarding this matter. Those that have purchased seedlings, know the history behind the breeding plant and now it's up to them to do what they think is appropriate.
> JOB WELL DONE BILL! KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!



Well said... Thank you for all the work you do keeping this forum up and running for all of us.:clap:


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## tomkalina (Sep 12, 2012)

Welcome back, Rose.


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