# Should I self the kovachii I just got awarded?



## jhoff (Nov 22, 2011)

There's a thread about it and pix in the Phrag pictures forum...

Question for you guys - should I self this plant? I'm really tempted... or should I let it grow for another year or so before I try and put a pod on it? And do you know if they're like besseae where the pollen needs to be very fresh? And how about approx how long the gestation period is? I could also put the pollen on another phrag but all I have in bloom right now is some longifoliums (they're always in bloom...) and a besseae that's a bit past it's prime.


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## slippertalker (Nov 22, 2011)

Use the pollen but don't stress the plant. It is a small first bloom seedling and putting a pod on it might just sap too much energy.


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## jhoff (Nov 22, 2011)

Yeah, I know - I'm still tempted tho  I'd send the seed to Troy Meyers which would be a big help to him...


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## John Boy (Nov 22, 2011)

A plant that's ready to flower, is ready to carry a pod. I'd pollinate it, without any doubt. And I'd buy in a few other good plants, to use up the remaining pollen while they are frech to make nice hybrids.


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## jhoff (Nov 22, 2011)

So I'm still deciding but leaning towards doing it 

Does anyone know if the pollen needs to be fresh like besseae? I haven't even tried to do any research yet but will. Much nicer to just ask you guys who know tho


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## jhoff (Nov 22, 2011)

and do I need to pollinate the flower fresh as well or can I enjoy it for a few more days?

I should probably write to / call Fritz and ask...


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## John M (Nov 22, 2011)

Sorry John Boy. I disagree with that statement. From the plant's evolutionary point of view, the point of being alive is not to live, it is to produce progeny.....even if sometimes the parent plant sacrifices itself by sapping all it's strength to make those fertile seeds. Many plants bloom themselves to death....especially first bloom seedlings that are triggered into bloom by environmental influences before the plant is really mature enough to handle the energy tapping stress producing and carrying a flower and then a capsule. 

Even though it got an AM award, I see much room for flower form improvement. This flower has the potential to be much larger in overall size. The petals could be much larger too, both in length and width. The staminode could be much larger and more flaring at the bottom edge and the stem could have more than just one flower on it. All these things are indications of a juvenile plant doing it's best; but, not meeting it's potential because it is still too young and not up to full strength. Blooming will have set it back and slowed the timeline to full maturity because of the energy the plant has had to put into making that flower, instead of a new growth and roots. Carrying a capsule will weaken it more....perhaps to the point of it dying just as the capsule reaches full term and ripens. If this were my plant, I'd use the pollen on other plants; but, not on itself. If I did, I couldn't be surprised if the plant croaked during, or immediately after, producing the capsule.


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## nikv (Nov 22, 2011)

From what I've read, kovachii sometimes self pollinates, so you might not get a choice. It's up to you whether or not to allow the potential seed pod to develop.


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## gonewild (Nov 22, 2011)

Use the pollen to make hybrids.


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## Berthold (Nov 22, 2011)

John M said:


> Sorry John Boy. I disagree with that statement. From the plant's evolutionary point of view, the point of being alive is not to live, it is to produce progeny.....even if sometimes the parent plant sacrifices itself by sapping all it's strength to make those fertile seeds. Many plants bloom themselves to death....especially first bloom seedlings that are triggered into bloom by environmental influences before the plant is really mature enough to handle the energy tapping stress producing and carrying a flower and then a capsule.



Yes but the most power is needed to produce the big flower not for producing the seeds. So if the plant starts producing the seed pod it is out of the wood.

You should think about cutting the first bud not the first pod.


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## John Boy (Nov 22, 2011)

*From where I sit John has a valued point that many people would share.* I've come to the point where I just think practical (which John does also in a way!),...but I'd claim that 95% of the drain has happened producing the buds and flower. And yes, it certainly is true, a pollination will cost the plant that little bit extra, but is it really such a big deal to turn a flower (which is there and history) into a pod? I for my part, doubt it. Talking drain, biomass-production and potential plant-loss: I just believe most people overreact when it comes to pollinating young plants, though again: John has a just and valued point here all the same. 

The one thing in my defence is: The flower is there!!! Even the pod is there already, all that needs happening now, from a "production-perspective" is: *the pod needs filling* And here's my point: *Filling that pod with viable seeds is a doddle for a healty plant!* Had the plants weak roots, is it looking stressed, does it appear "ill" or generally weak: you should have chopped the spike as it developed, not riscing to loose the entire plant....


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## Dido (Nov 22, 2011)

At least you could do both with the pollen self it and put some on the longifolium could be an interesting cross.


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## JC94030 (Nov 22, 2011)

I have some nice Phrags in bloom so would appreciate some pollen if possible.
--Jason Fischer, Fritz Schomburg, besseaes.
I sent you a PM.
JC


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## Berthold (Nov 22, 2011)

John Boy said:


> I'd claim that 95% of the drain has happened producing the buds and flower. And yes, it certainly is true, a pollination will cost the plant that little bit extra, but is it really such a big deal to turn a flower (which is there and history) into a pod? ..



You can estimate the power ratio of needed power for the flower and needed power for the pod by weighting the flower inclusive pedicel and pod. Multiply the pod weight by 1.5 due to less water in it.

I have no idea but I roughly guess flower is 20 g, pod is 2 g. That is 20/3, 87% for the flower, 13% for the pod.

That means if You enjoy the flower don't cut the pod.


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## Brian Monk (Nov 22, 2011)

I spoke to Hadley Cash a while back about using first bloom plants as parents. He said that he won't use one as a pod parent, b/c he has rarely gotten viable seed. I don't know if he ever lost a plant, but if you won't get good seed and the plant is spending ANY energy toward trying to make seed, then I would cut off the spike and let the plant develop. I see this in triploid Cattleyas, as well - strong, large plants can be slightly fertile, but never when small. Use the pollen, save the plant.


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## John M (Nov 22, 2011)

Yes, I agree that in general the best thing to do (in the case of a small, or weak, or very young plant), is to cut the spike as soon as it emerges. However, the argument that once the flower has been made, it's pretty much unimportant whether or not the plant also continues to make a capsule full of viable seeds is flawed. The whole process of bloom initiation, growth, fertilization and ripening of the seeds is governed by plant hormones. Allowing the plant to carry a capsule to maturity completes the hormone cycle of reproduction and that sends some plants the signal that it's time to die now. One Genus that this occurs VERY often with is Disa. So many fantastic Disas grow well, bloom spectacularly and when they are finished, they drop dead without making a tuber. But, if you cut the spike, a tuber is more likely to be formed and the plant lives to bloom again. Cutting a spike at any point distrupts the reproductive hormone cycle and the plant's response, now that it cannot reproduce, is to keep growing and try to bloom again. 

So, it is not just the conservation of energy. It's also about not stressing a plant by allowing it to bloom and produce seeds while too young or weak, which could just have the effect of sending it the signal that is has served it's purpose. This is why many plants (tropical Hybriscus, etc.), will side branch with multiple branches when you cut just a single lead. The plant reacts by coming back even better, with more stems, giving it an even better chance that some stems will get to carry flowers and eventually produce seeds. Cutting the flowerstem on a small or weak Phrag, or cutting the flower before a capsule is able to form, interupts the reproductive cycle and that sends the (hormonal), message to the plant to rev up and grow more foliage, instead of wimp out, give up and wither away because it's job of reproduction is done.


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## Berthold (Nov 22, 2011)

John M said:


> Allowing the plant to carry a capsule to maturity completes the hormone cycle of reproduction and that sends some plants the signal that it's time to die now. One Genus that this occurs VERY often with is Disa. So many fantastic Disas grow well, bloom spectacularly and when they are finished, they drop dead without making a tuber.



You are very right, that is true for monocarpic plants. It is the natural way of live for theses species. But Phrag. kovachii isn't monocarpic.


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## Rick (Nov 22, 2011)

I started a thread last week on whether or not capsules draw negatively from the plant.

I aggree with Johnboy and Berthold that if the plant survives flowering, capsule formation is a drop in the bucket.

Orchid seed has no nutrient store added to it (like corn seed), and the capsule walls themselves are photosynthesising just like leaves (making chemical energy).

I think that plants "stressing out" from blooming and seeding is just another symptom of K overdose.

If the roots are good on this plant, I would self it, but then knock down the standard high K fertilizer and start beefing up Ca and Mg fertilization (if that's the normal regime for this plant now). . Even better if there's a new growth start already.

You may also consider adding a kelp extract to the mix. This could shift the plants hormonal balance to encourage new growth with the capsule formation.


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## John M (Nov 22, 2011)

> You are very right, that is true for monocarpic plants. It is the natural way of live for theses species. But Phrag. kovachii isn't monocarpic.




When I said "they drop dead without making a tuber", I meant that the whole plant dies without producing any new vegetative growths, which Disas should and normally do in habitat; but, often don't in cultivation. While each rosette of leaves follows a monocarpic-like life cycle, the individual clone does not....normally. 

True monocarpic plants divert *all* their energy from the roots and leaves to the production of fruit/seeds only. Disas are not true monocarpic plants. The main rosette of leaves does die after flowering; but, as it does that, the energy, which was not entirely consumed by the production of fruits and seeds, is used to make new offshoots and tubers. Thus, the plant lives on to bloom again, just from different growths. In that sense, they resemble the way a Phrag grows more than they they do not. Old bloomed Phrag growths do eventually die, they just take longer to do it. However, they will never bloom again. An old bloomed Phrag growth's only function is to support the new growths. A Disa's old bloomed growth's function is the same; except, it happens more quickly and completely. Still, the individual clone itself does not die. It propagates vegetatively by means of offshoots and tubers. Monocarpic plants compltely die, without leaving vegetative propagated bits of themselves. Biennials are a good example of a true monocarpic plant...such as Foxglove and Mullin. Disas are not monocarpic.


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## gonewild (Nov 22, 2011)

According to the News hybrids consume less energy.


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## Rick (Nov 22, 2011)

John M said:


> When I said "they drop dead without making a tuber", I meant that the whole plant dies without producing any new vegetative growths, which they should and normally do in habitat; but, often don't in cultivation. While each rosette of leaves follows a monocarpic-like life cycle, the individual clone does not....normally.



Plants locked up with K can't readily produce new growths. High K keeps the plant from uptaking Ca, Mg, PO4 and a host of micro metal nutrients needed for new growth. Disa in habitat come from very impoverished conditions, so when we feed them like monocarpic cultivated corn I would not expect them to support cyclical perenial growth patterns in the GH. 




John M said:


> An old bloomed Phrag growth's only function is to support the new growths.


 They gotta produce capsules sometimes though??


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## John M (Nov 22, 2011)

> _I started a thread last week on whether or not capsules draw negatively from the plant.
> 
> I aggree with Johnboy and Berthold that if the plant survives flowering, capsule formation is a drop in the bucket.
> 
> ...





Hey Rick! Now you've gone and thrown a new spanner in the mix. But, I like your point. It may very well be true that plants that "stress out" in our care do so because of a nutrient imbalance, especially excessive K. Hmmmm? Goof food for thought! Thanks! 
However, a small/young plant is still not going to have as much energy reserves as a large one. Blooming/producing seeds is the whole point of any plant's existence. A plant that has poor roots, is very young, or otherwise fragile, etc., could bloom itself to death if allowed to complete the reproductive hormone cycle (by carrying a capsule to maturity, vs. having that interrupted mid way). Disas can be brought to bloom in less than 2 years from sowing the seed. These early blooming plants typically immediately die without ever trying to reproduce vegetatively. There is no energy left. Even though they were healthy and a good size, they were too young and weak to both produce the flowers/seeds as well as have energy leftover to make a tuber or side shoots. These otherwise healthy plants "choose" to sacrifice themselves for the sake of creating a future generation. However, an older, stronger plant can both bloom/set seeds and make tubers and offshoots. 

In the case of this Phrag, it's really difficult for any of us to determine if it is wise to make it carry a capsule because we haven't the benefit of being able to closely examine the plant...In fact, I've not even seen a photo of the plant. I just know that it's a first time blooming seedling and I'm assuming that it's still got room to mature. Because of it's value, both real and sentimental, it'd be a shame if it died. That's why I tried to discourage Jerry from selfing it just now.


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## John M (Nov 22, 2011)

Rick said:


> Plants locked up with K can't readily produce new growths. High K keeps the plant from uptaking Ca, Mg, PO4 and a host of micro metal nutrients needed for new growth. Disa in habitat come from very impoverished conditions, so when we feed them like monocarpic cultivated corn I would not expect them to support cyclical perenial growth patterns in the GH.



So, it's not just the lack of Ca and Mg etc., it's also the excess of K that causes problems. You've giving me new ideas about how to grow my Disas! Thanks!




Rick said:


> They gotta produce capsules sometimes though??


Yes of course. That happens BEFORE they become OLD, BLOOMED growths.


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## SlipperFan (Nov 22, 2011)

gonewild said:


> According to the News hybrids consume less energy.


:rollhappy:


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## jhoff (Nov 22, 2011)

Ok, so I think I can make the decision on whether to self it or not  I have enough input on that at this point  Could someone answer my other questions? Does it need to be pollinated when the flower is very fresh like besseae or can I wait / enjoy it a bit longer? Does anyone know approx how long the capsule takes to mature? My flasker likes dry seed...


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## gonewild (Nov 22, 2011)

jhoff said:


> Does it need to be pollinated when the flower is very fresh like besseae or can I wait / enjoy it a bit longer?



Alfredo Manrique pollinates the flowers very quickly. But I don't know if that is because it is necessary.


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## Rick (Nov 22, 2011)

John M said:


> So, it's not just the lack of Ca and Mg etc., it's also the excess of K that causes problems. You've giving me new ideas about how to grow my Disas! Thanks!



Now you've got it!

Not sure I sent you the paper on rice plants that demonstrated that as tissue K went up Ca, Mg, and ultimately P went down (the uptake of P depends on Ca and Mg). Plants became deficient and poor producers.

Since I got onto this program I've also seen some pretty big improvements in the Pleurothalidae I still have. Many of these are cool growers from dripping rainforest. Also not liking heavy feeding in general. But now with very light applications with Cano3 and MgSO4 I'm starting to think about Draculas again.


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## John M (Nov 23, 2011)

Rick said:


> Not sure I sent you the paper on rice plants that demonstrated that as tissue K went up Ca, Mg, and ultimately P went down (the uptake of P depends on Ca and Mg). Plants became deficient and poor producers.*Yes, you did. I'll have to go and reread it again! Thanks.*


..


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## emydura (Nov 23, 2011)

Rick said:


> Plants locked up with K can't readily produce new growths. High K keeps the plant from uptaking Ca, Mg, PO4 and a host of micro metal nutrients needed for new growth.



So would that explain why I have so much trouble getting some of my Paphs to produce multiple new growths?

David


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## bullsie (Nov 23, 2011)

Just my curiousity, but what is the hurry to get a seed pod from this plant? I wonder that if there is the slightest chance that your plant will die and the pod will prove to be useless, would it have been worth it? Does making a pod now that may be good and doesn't stress the plant tip the scale greater than total loss of a plant that could have used a little more time to maturity and eliminate the risk?

Just my two cents if I were faced with the situation - and with todays economics, I don't think two cents even registers on the value scale.


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## Berthold (Nov 23, 2011)

bullsie said:


> I wonder that if there is the slightest chance that your plant will die and the pod will prove to be useless, would it have been worth it?



Yes it is because there is a very good chance that the plant survives and You have a good seed pod in addition.


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## NYEric (Nov 23, 2011)

do what you please, it probably wont kill it if the plant is strong.


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## Rick (Nov 23, 2011)

emydura said:


> So would that explain why I have so much trouble getting some of my Paphs to produce multiple new growths?
> 
> David



Quite possibly, David. I've been geting much better new growth production since reducing K. I wasn't sure whether it was more the kelp than the reduced K, but SlipperKing I believe has been getting similar results, and is not using kelp.


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## Rick (Nov 23, 2011)

bullsie said:


> Just my curiousity, but what is the hurry to get a seed pod from this plant? Does making a pod now that may be good and doesn't stress the plant tip the scale greater than total loss of a plant that could have used a little more time to maturity and eliminate the risk?



No experience with kovachii, but I've never lost anything else I've pollinated on a single growth plant.

I think the odds are very low that the plant will die, (certainly for reasons of making seed). No more than for loosing the plant over the next year for any other reason. And he only has one plant to loose (?). Using Troy M he could get flasking done for free, and with good seed get 25 more plants to start over with. 25 more chances to get it right the second time, or 25 more plants to sell and make back a fraction of what I've put into the single plant so far.

So for me, seedling production has been as much cheap insurance that I will have this plant to work with in the future.


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## jhoff (Nov 24, 2011)

I'm gonna pollinate it  And yes, I will send my seed to Troy.


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## jhoff (Nov 24, 2011)

and btw, the flower is still fairly flat and has grown to 6" / 15.25 cm


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## Berthold (Nov 24, 2011)

jhoff said:


> I'm gonna pollinate it



congratulation on that decision.


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## Rick (Nov 24, 2011)

jhoff said:


> I'm gonna pollinate it  And yes, I will send my seed to Troy.



I better hurry up and put it on my favorites/want list then!!!!


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## jhoff (Nov 24, 2011)

I'm gonna take one pollen bundle and use it to do the selfing, the other I'm gonna divide between longifolium and besseae...


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## Rick (Nov 24, 2011)

jhoff said:


> and btw, the flower is still fairly flat and has grown to 6" / 15.25 cm




GO!GO!GO!GO!


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## Rick (Nov 24, 2011)

John M said:


> The whole process of bloom initiation, growth, fertilization and ripening of the seeds is governed by plant hormones. Allowing the plant to carry a capsule to maturity completes the hormone cycle of reproduction and that sends some plants the signal that it's time to die now.
> 
> Cutting a spike at any point distrupts the reproductive hormone cycle and the plant's response, now that it cannot reproduce, is to keep growing and try to bloom again.
> 
> Cutting the flowerstem on a small or weak Phrag, or cutting the flower before a capsule is able to form, interupts the reproductive cycle and that sends the (hormonal), message to the plant to rev up and grow more foliage, instead of wimp out, give up and wither away because it's job of reproduction is done.



There's another way to look at this. Once the plant is blooming , the blooming action is expending nutrients and energy. Starting a capsule is essentially the same (energy wise) for an orchid as cutting the spike. It should truly produce a hormonal signal that "flowering energy and resources are no longer needed", and should start it on the path of producing a new growth while the capsule takes care of itself. 

Yes, its job of luring a pollinator in for sexual reproduction is now done and it can proceed to asexual budding now that the blooming switch has been turned to off with pollination.


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## John M (Nov 24, 2011)

Rick said:


> It should truly produce a hormonal signal that "flowering energy and resources are no longer needed", and should start it on the path of producing a new growth while the capsule takes care of itself.


 Yes, I agree. That's how it is supposed to work with a plant like a Phrag. However, "should" is the key word here. If the plant only has energy reserves to either bloom and carry a capsule, or, produce a new growth, allowing it to bloom is sealing it's fate. That's the risk one takes when pollinating any first bloom seedling. Of course, we are talking about stunted, weak, or juvenile plants here, not normal, healthy, *mature* plants. This entire debate is based on the assumption that the plant in question is quite young and therefore, possibly not energetic enough to do a good job of both blooming/producing seeds AND putting on new growths. 

Personally, in the case of a specific plant that is particularly valuable, of high sentimental value, or important to me in some other way, I'd never allow it to bloom; or set seeds unless it was fully mature and in the peak of health. There is no reason to believe that his kovachii is not in the peak of good health; but, I do get the feeling that it is young and not yet up to it's full potential, as many Paphs and Phrags are not on their first bloom. That is because they are young and therefore, small, resulting in them not being up to the task (energywise), of doing their very best. In that case, I would not want to further stress such a plant by causing it to carry a capsule. Carrying the capsule could or should (whichever you prefer), as Rick suggests, send the signal to begin a new growth. But, if the energy reserves are low, that signal could be misinterpreted as a signal to put EVERYTHING into the capsule at the expense of it's own life.


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## Wendy (Nov 24, 2011)

I agree with you John. If this were my plant I wouldn't want to take a chance with it. There is always the next flowering when it has much more maturity. Taking a chance now and possibly losing the plant means there is no 'next time'.


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## Rick (Nov 24, 2011)

John M said:


> Y But, if the energy reserves are low, that signal could be misinterpreted as a signal to put EVERYTHING into the capsule at the expense of it's own life.




Which goes back to the assumption that significant reserves (energetic or material) go into making a capsule or new growths.

This is orchids not corn ,and no significant resources come out of the plant to produce seed. The capsules are virtually self sustaining (probably another reason why it takes a year for a paph to produce a capsule while a corn plant matures an ear of corn in a few weeks.


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## Kevin (Nov 25, 2011)

jhoff: Did you say in another thread that this plant did try to spike last year, but the spike rotted off? Is so, then wouldn't the energy that it saved last year be transfered to this flowering? This flower, then would be 'better' than the previous blooming, since I hear a lot that Phrag flowers 'improve' in subsequent bloomings. This is a comment on the quality of the flower and number of flowers (just 1), but also that the plant should be strong enough to hold a pod, since it is on it's second blooming already. Just an amateur's thoughts.


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## Rick (Nov 25, 2011)

Kevin said:


> jhoff: Did you say in another thread that this plant did try to spike last year, but the spike rotted off? Is so, then wouldn't the energy that it saved last year be transfered to this flowering? This flower, then would be 'better' than the previous blooming, since I hear a lot that Phrag flowers 'improve' in subsequent bloomings. This is a comment on the quality of the flower and number of flowers (just 1), but also that the plant should be strong enough to hold a pod, since it is on it's second blooming already. Just an amateur's thoughts.



Jeff does mention that in the first thread on this plant, which suggests that this is a multigrowth plant, (and should have more resources than a single growth plant).

He also mentions that this plant is one of a half flask of plants he's raised, so he has about another dozen NBS or BS kovachii plants in his possession to tide him over if this one gets set back from this breeding experiment.


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## Roth (Nov 25, 2011)

If you ask someone who is in the trade like me... 

You can self it and sell the flasks for a very expensive price to Japan and eventually Taiwan. If you can save the energy and not self it, as soon as you can divide it, you can sell a division a premium to Japan, or exchange against plants they usually do not sell for money, that's for sure. Because of the award, people are willing to pay really high price for it...


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## Rick (Nov 25, 2011)

Roth said:


> If you ask someone who is in the trade like me...
> 
> You can self it and sell the flasks for a very expensive price to Japan and eventually Taiwan. If you can save the energy and not self it, as soon as you can divide it, you can sell a division a premium to Japan, or exchange against plants they usually do not sell for money, that's for sure. Because of the award, people are willing to pay really high price for it...



That's probably already understood Xavier. I would suspect that since most of us are not making a living on orchids, the $ is not our primary motivator. 

There is so much criticism of the hobby with respect to lack of conservation, that I like to use TM as a way to disperse large numbers of seedlings at a fairly low price.

Flasks of suk, roth, awarded roth, PK, all go out the door at $32 a flask first come first served.

Is that socialized orchid growing??


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## slippertalker (Nov 25, 2011)

Kevin said:


> jhoff: Did you say in another thread that this plant did try to spike last year, but the spike rotted off? Is so, then wouldn't the energy that it saved last year be transfered to this flowering? This flower, then would be 'better' than the previous blooming, since I hear a lot that Phrag flowers 'improve' in subsequent bloomings. This is a comment on the quality of the flower and number of flowers (just 1), but also that the plant should be strong enough to hold a pod, since it is on it's second blooming already. Just an amateur's thoughts.



The plant has one relatively small growth that is flowering and a smaller older growth. That is it......Jerry has larger plants that have not flowered yet. Having seen the plant, it has a way to go before it is truly mature, perhaps a couple of years. Putting seed on it is not very prudent at this time unless one is willing to lose the plant.


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## gonewild (Nov 25, 2011)

Rick said:


> Which goes back to the assumption that significant reserves (energetic or material) go into making a capsule or new growths.
> 
> This is orchids not corn ,and no significant resources come out of the plant to produce seed. The capsules are virtually self sustaining (probably another reason why it takes a year for a paph to produce a capsule while a corn plant matures an ear of corn in a few weeks.



Where does a phrag store energy and what would this stored energy be used for and how?

I agree with you on the energy reserve point. I don't think plants like phrags have energy reserves that are saved or drained by plant growth. They tend to get energy from growth from light and nutrients and produce what they need when they need it. If a plant has bad roots and is not able to pick up water then adding any growth (mass) that taxes the availability of moisture is bad for the survival of the plant. But I think that has more to do with the intake of water and not stored energy.


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## John M (Nov 25, 2011)

slippertalker said:


> The plant has one relatively small growth that is flowering and a smaller older growth. That is it......Jerry has larger plants that have not flowered yet. Having seen the plant, it has a way to go before it is truly mature, perhaps a couple of years. Putting seed on it is not very prudent at this time unless one is willing to lose the plant.



I guess we'll see what happens by the time spring rolls around and the capsule ripens. I hope that Jerry still has his plant; but, considering the way Erwinia can eat up a stressed and/or weakened plant overnight, I'm concerned for it. Good luck, Jerry! I hope my concerns are unfounded.


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## Paphman910 (Nov 25, 2011)

I agree with others on this one! It would be safer to pollinate a multigrowth plant with 5-7 growths! After it produces a seedpod the plant's new growth could shrink to a very small size or no new growth! My friend who judged your plant said it is a really nice.


Paphman910


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## Rick (Nov 25, 2011)

John M said:


> but, considering the way Erwinia can eat up a stressed and/or weakened plant overnight, I'm concerned for it.



Now this would be a separate debate altogether.

I think I sent you this paper also, that susceptibility to erwinia is caused by excess K in plant tissues and subsequent lack of Ca. Any new leaf or root growth at the base of the plant can trigger an erwinia attack, and has nothing to due with "stress" or abnormal resource allocation. Pinch off spikes before or after blooming, and a plant overloaded with K is just as likely to die from erwinia when it goes to add roots or growths.

So I also suggested that Jerry drastically reduce the K and promote access to Ca/Mg. Now would also be a good time to top dress with a dash of bone meal or aragonite sand.


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## gonewild (Nov 25, 2011)

So just to be clear..... 
Is this a weak small plant?

I assumed that since it was judged and awarded that it must be in good health?

The fact that it may be a single growth does not mean it has only had one growth in it's life. Pk tends to not to keep old growths once the new growth has started to mature. With Pk don't expect to have a pot full of old growths. A 2 growth plant is likely 2 new growths on each side of an old one that withered away.


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## Rick (Nov 25, 2011)

Paphman910 said:


> I agree with others on this one! It would be safer to pollinate a multigrowth plant with 5-7 growths! After it produces a seedpod the plant's new growth could shrink to a very small size or no new growth! My friend who judged your plant said it is a really nice.
> 
> 
> Paphman910



Now this is what you told me about breeding my roth in 2006. After capsule formation it put on several new growths with no problem at all.

About a dozen flasks of our cross with your roth went out the door at Troys and I'm still raising seedlings to this day.

However, all this was from my high K days and the plant went from about 10 to 0 growths from end of 2009 to 2010 blooming the whole way out. I don't think this was delayed stress reaction to the 2006 breeding, but my novice inability to understand nutritional antagonism.


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## Paphman910 (Nov 25, 2011)

Rick said:


> Now this is what you told me about breeding my roth in 2006. After capsule formation it put on several new growths with no problem at all.
> 
> About a dozen flasks of our cross with your roth went out the door at Troys and I'm still raising seedlings to this day.
> 
> However, all this was from my high K days and the plant went from about 10 to 0 growths from end of 2009 to 2010 blooming the whole way out. I don't think this was delayed stress reaction to the 2006 breeding, but my novice inability to understand nutritional antagonism.



So how big are they now?

I think you got lucky on a vigorous roth!

Paphman910


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## Rick (Nov 25, 2011)

Paphman910 said:


> So how big are they now?
> 
> I think you got lucky on a vigorous roth!
> 
> Paphman910



I have a couple with 8" or so leaf span and a few others 6". But I'm chalking up a bunch of my seedling failures to high K too. 

I moved the most promising seedlings to baskets in Jan of this year, and they have just about doubled in size since then. More growth than in all the previous 2 years out of flask.

I've been nursing along a Noyo X Rex seedling since 2002. Boom and bust growths, but never blooming. Always "compact" pale growth. I split the two remaining growths into separate baskets, cut K and plowed in the Ca/Mg. Now its starting to look like a normal roth. One division has added 4 growths since Jan. The oldest "new" growth is bigger than the parent. The original "old" growth started a new "keiki" like growth from its crown. Maybe it will actually bloom this coming spring.


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## Roth (Nov 25, 2011)

Rick said:


> That's probably already understood Xavier. I would suspect that since most of us are not making a living on orchids, the $ is not our primary motivator.
> 
> There is so much criticism of the hobby with respect to lack of conservation, that I like to use TM as a way to disperse large numbers of seedlings at a fairly low price.
> 
> ...



Jhoff for flasks of kovachii AM/AOS x self, if he gets enough flasks, or for a division of his awarded one, can get from many nurseries either a lot of cash ( that is not so interesting in a way... I am not interested either, usually I prefer to exchange very expensive plants), or divisions of plants he could just dream of. As a fact, there are plants I always refused to sell, but if someone had something I was highly interested, I could make an exception and divide such plants. In Japan, an AM/AOS kovachii division could get a lot of interesting divisions in exchange. In the USA I am sure some of the paphs and phrags breeders could exchange a lot of things for a division too.

If you have an awarded paph, you would be really surprised to see, if you offer a division to some pros growers, what they can offer in exchange from their own breeding stock, believe me...

As to whether self it or not, I think if the plant has a good active root system with active growths, there is little risk. I have seen fresh wild kovachii being selfed on their jungle flower spike, and the plants did not have any subsequent problem ( they were in marble chips and bark, constant watering, so that would match the extra calcium requirements, and low K...)


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## jhoff (Nov 26, 2011)

Women are often in particularly good health while "carrying a pod"...


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## paphioboy (Nov 26, 2011)

jhoff said:


> Women are often in particularly good health while "carrying a pod"...



Maybe plants with pods also have certain cravings which are not understood by us... :rollhappy: :rollhappy:


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## Rick (Nov 26, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> Maybe plants with pods also have certain cravings which are not understood by us... :rollhappy: :rollhappy:



I've never tried pickle juice and ice cream culture!!

Jerry, How are the leaf tips? I'm finding that "burnt" leaf tips are an early sign of K excess in Phrags.

So if you are seeing this, then another reason to back down the K.


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## jhoff (Nov 27, 2011)

leaf tips are fine - no problems there at all. i fertilized way less this summer than I usually do - not for any reason other than just not having time for it...

When I do fertilize, I use the MSU pure water formula (which fits our Seattle water well ) - https://www.firstrays.com/cgi/cart/...product=Chemicals!Nutrition&pid=214&keywords= 

Can't remember if I got it from Ray or from Wayne at orchidmix.com - pretty sure I've bought from both.


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## Rick (Nov 27, 2011)

jhoff said:


> leaf tips are fine - no problems there at all. i fertilized way less this summer than I usually do - not for any reason other than just not having time for it...
> 
> When I do fertilize, I use the MSU pure water formula (which fits our Seattle water well ) - https://www.firstrays.com/cgi/cart/...product=Chemicals!Nutrition&pid=214&keywords=
> 
> Can't remember if I got it from Ray or from Wayne at orchidmix.com - pretty sure I've bought from both.



Good

Do you add any lime "like" supplements to your potting mix (or top dress)? I picked up a kovachii and a couple of fisherii seedlings early this spring/summer. All are growing at good rates and putting on very nice roots. The kovachii is in the basket system I talked about earlier this year, but I left the fisherii in the bark mix they came in. Besides the supplemental Cal nitrate and Mgsulfate (with reduced use of MSU), I've been top dressing with aragonite "cichlid sand" by Caribsea. I got this from PetSmart. It's just a little coarser than standard building or play sand. But it is more friable than either oyster shell or limestone gravel. Aragonite is almost pure calcite.

I've been using it on plants that aren't known for coming from calcareous geologies too (hybrid Catts) with some good results supporting the nutrition changes I've been making.


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## jhoff (Nov 27, 2011)

I grow my kovachiis in diatomite w/ oyster shell mixed in...

I had some fisherii seedlings (think I bought a compot of them) some years ago but eventually lost them all - I had them in a CHC mix I think. curious how folks grow fisherii - like to try them again but not lose them...


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## Rick (Nov 27, 2011)

I picked up some from Orchidbabies (about 4 years ago). They grew and flowered (poorly), and eventually burnt out, died. I had them in hydroton/moss/chc with oyster shell using a kind of semi hydro system. They were never great doer's and I attributed their "crankiness" to my overall high temps.

Now the ones I just got from OL (3months?) are still in the bark mix the came in, and although I water a lot, they are not in SH conditions. I have added some sand and "cichlid sand" as top dress. As you've probably noted from many of my other posts, I've restricted K supplementation, by reducing the MSU rate and adding Canitrate and epsom salts.

So far these are darkening up and growing leaves and roots much better than my previous experience with the OB plants.


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## jhoff (Nov 27, 2011)

Pollination done at least in theory. I've not been successful pollinating phrags in the past but mainly I've tried to pollinate besseaes. Anyway, that was hard! Especially with my 50 year old eyes... Now we wait... Wondering if I should keep the plant in the house where I can 1) watch it and 2) keep it away from the slugs or if I should take it down to the nice humid greenhouse...


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## Rick (Nov 27, 2011)

In my experience pollinating phrags, high humidity correlated closely with success as anything else.

Maybe put it back in the GH and put a ring of slug killer around it.:evil:


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## jhoff (Nov 28, 2011)

it's back in the GH...

I got the award photo from the photographer today - I'll post it in the other thread under phrag photos...


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