# General lighting for phrags I have purchased



## TheLorax (Sep 18, 2007)

I have two basic cat-free areas in which to grow phrags. The first area has bright indirect light and I have been growing my mottled leaf paphs there and they have been doing very well. The second area is where I have been growing phals and other paphs and I used to grow highland Neps there and they all did well. The area where the mottled leaf paphs grow receives no direct light at all but the ceilings in that room are very high and the walls are painted a semi gloss white and the light bounces around quite a bit from two mirrors over opposing vanities. The second area where I have been growing the others is in the same room but does receive some direct light mid afternoon although it is through windows and screens that we leave up all year round. The light is filtered as if I had shade cloth. The exposure for both is a western exposure.

These are the areas I have without adding supplemental lighting which I want to avoid like the plague. 

I took some time to sort out which area I thought my new phrags should go into and which area the phrags that are on their way to me should be sorted into this morning based on comments made by lots of people. So many comments have been made that I'm sort of in a tail spin so thought it best to list out what I have and go from there. 

Should mention that all phrags are in about a 1/4" of water. 

This is what I came up with so far and I tried my best to avoid phrags which required more light than what I had to offer but may have made mistakes-

P. Cape Sunset- second area
P. Kelly Nash- first area
P. Les Dirouilles- second area
P. longifolium- second area
P. Magdalene Rose 4N x Barbara LeAnn- move from the second area over to the first area
P. Paul Eugene Conroy- first area
P. Sedenii- second area
P. Sorcerer’s Apprentice- second area
P. caudatum- second area (no standing water)
P. pearcei- first area
P. pearcei hybrid- first area
P. schlimii- first area
P. Schroederae- first area
P. wallisii- first area (no standing water)

Just out of curiosity, which area would these be grown in should I ever purchase them in the future-
P. boissierianum- second area
P. equadorense- first area
P. lindenii- second area (knock out, consider trying in a few years)

While I'm at it, what general signs would I look for to clue me in that one of these phrags might be getting too much light? Are there indicators to look for that apply to phrags in general or is this one of those deals where it is going to vary from species to species and hybrid to hybrid? Photos appreciated if possible.

What general signs are there of not enough light?

editing to add more comments to keep everything together for me personally-
Pearcei and many of its hybrids have darker green leaves and the color is not necessarily a sign of too little light.


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## parvi_17 (Sep 18, 2007)

Well, the first thing I'd like to mention is that caudatum and wallisii should not be grown in standing water - they like it drier (like Paphs). As for the lighting, too much light causes bleaching and scorching, while in too little light the leaves appear a deep green. They should be bright green. Phrag schlimii likes a little lower light than the other Phrags you listed.

Joe


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## goldenrose (Sep 18, 2007)

TheLorax said:


> Just out of curiosity, which area would these be grown in should I ever purchase them in the future-
> P. boissierianum
> P. equadorense
> P. lindenii
> ...



Looks like you have them in the right places, on paper anyway! The Mag Rose x Barb would go the lesser light area.
Here's the info, I have, on:
boissierianum - Peru, Equador, Peruvian Andes(montane species), epiphyte treat same as caudatum.
equadorense - lower light levels.
lindenii - 2400-3000f.c. Culture the same for all in this group - south of equator, Ecauador, Peru, Columbia. Bright shade to full sun.Warm rainy season Nov-Apr.. 80day/50night. Winter cooler, drier May-Oct.40-45night
Pics are in the camera, coming soon!


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## TheLorax (Sep 18, 2007)

Thank you parvi, I edited the post and noted those two phrags aren't to be in water. I do have to comment that all of the leaves are looking deep green to me. Perhaps in time as I become more cognizant of phrags while out visiting nurseries, I will learn the difference between the greens. Thanks also for the comments about leaves looking bleached out and scorched if they are getting too much sun. That makes sense to me. Someone had mentioned that they curl if they are getting too much light.

Thanks goldenrose, lindenii looks as if it's going to be out for me no matter how beautiful it is. I did sort them into the appropriate areas by editing the post above. I'll go back and edit the Mag Rose x and move that into the first area. 

Ok, this is good for now. A base line from which to work.


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## parvi_17 (Sep 18, 2007)

You're very welcome. The curling I've never experienced before so I can't say anything about that, but wuith your dark green leaves, if you just got them the leaves may take a little while to return to normal color (maybe the plants are a little stressed from transit?), and note also that pearcei and many of its hybrids have darker green leaves (forgot to mention that).


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## TheLorax (Sep 18, 2007)

Ok good, that particular plant did have the darkest leaves of all when I saw them for sale. When mine come, I'll take a look see and compare them to others. 

The color of the leaves appears to be consistent with the color of the leaves on the day I bought them so stress might not be a factor, at least in my particular situation. 

I've never experienced curling before in phrags because I've never had any before. Chances are you haven't experienced it before because the lighting you provide meets the needs of your plants.


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## goldenrose (Sep 19, 2007)

This is a bess X that I got from Chuck Acker. I asked him what was causing the leaves to curl, as I thought it was not wet enough. He claims too much light, this is what it looks like:




 This is a division so maybe a combination of adjusting & light & water? It's putting up new growths, it seems to be doing fine. If this were a houseplant I would be saying - SPIDERMITES! I've checked, don't see anything & used neem just incase. Any suggestions?


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## NYEric (Sep 19, 2007)

The leaves curl like that because it's a characteristic of some besseae breeding lines. In the hybrids it's crossed out. Nice group of phrags there,and don't worry about the cats, don't you remember Seymour from Little Shop of Horrors; he was a phrag!:evil:


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## TheLorax (Sep 20, 2007)

I had to move a lot of plants around and add a third area to grow them in based on a visit from goldenrose. The third area is a southern exposure and does have supplemental lighting if needed. 

P. Cape Sunset- first area
P. Kelly Nash- second area
P. Les Dirouilles- second area
P. longifolium- second area
P. Magdalene Rose 4N x Barbara LeAnn- second area
P. Paul Eugene Conroy- second area
P. Sedenii- second area
P. Sorcerer’s Apprentice- second area
P. caudatum- third area (no standing water)
P. pearcei- second area
P. pearcei hybrid- second area
P. schlimii- first area
P. Schroederae- second area
P. wallisii- second area (no standing water)

purchase them in the future-
P. boissierianum- third area
P. equadorense- second area
P. lindenii- third area (knock out, consider trying in a few years)

I had to make a whole shelf in front of that oversized double window in the third area available to phrags and a few paphs so now I have some room to move plants that may need more light onto that shelf and I suppose there will now be room to add a few more phrags ... until the shelf is full. I also had to give away 13-14 highland Nepenthes this morning (sigh), but they had really grown too big for my space anyway. The problem with Nepenthes is that they don't stay cute and little for long and before you know it, you end up with some 8'- 10' vine on your hands making a break for your hallway. They are huge plants and I should have passed them on a while ago anyway but I get sort of attached to my plants. 

I also had to move my Neos in by my remaining highland and intermediate Nepenthes. Ugh, I hated doing that.

Let's see how this works out over time.


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## Candace (Sep 20, 2007)

You need to post some photos!


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## TheLorax (Sep 20, 2007)

I can get photos of the plants but most of them would simply be leaves. Some are shooting up a flower scape. A few were in bloom when I bought them but two blooms got knocked off when I put them in my car which left two plants with blooms on them and one of those was a Paph not a Phrag. Without walking upstairs, I think at least one Phrag was in spike. I can try to take a photo of those plants. 

Do you really want a photo of leaves or should I only post photos of the ones that still have a bloom left on them?


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## Candace (Sep 20, 2007)

You might get some good advice if you post some photos of your growing setup. And some pics of the other plants you grow would be cool.


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## TheLorax (Sep 21, 2007)

I can post some photos of the areas I will be growing these plants. That's easy enough. If I take the picture at the right time of day it should reveal the lighting I have. 

I don't post photos of carnivorous plants any more and don't feel comfortable listing any that I grow unless they are common. I have hundreds and I've had hundreds stolen, not once, but twice now over the years. I took some heavy hits in the past. Other people who grow carnivorous plants have also taken heavy hits so I'm not alone. Sad, very sad. 

The vast majority of my personal plants are natives and they are all outside in the ground. Most are indigenous to the county in which I live and are therefor all temperate species. I think I have one plant inside for every 200 or so that I planted outside. 

I do have a few quasi tropicals that are in pots that I haul in for the winter but nothing to write home to Mom about although there was a Curcuma, a variegated Hymenocallis (not blooming now), and a few Zephyranthes that goldenrose seemed to like so I could take photos of those to share. 

Oh, my beloved Amorphophallus bulbifer bit the dust and I left it in the pot as a reminder to my husband to not move my plants around when I am gone. I noticed my husband moved it off the porch and into the sun while I was taking a mini vacation a few weeks ago. He thought it needed better light. It was pretty dead when I came back. Sad but kinda funny that I left the plant in its pot right where it keeled over. It's a conversation piece. 

I also have a few Hedychium coronarium in pots that I am very happy with but they aren't doing much of anything currently. It's the end of the season for us Midwesterners. 

I truly don't have any house plants other than some gesneriads, hoya, my mottled leaf paphs, the jewel orchids the fat slug chowed down on, and the orchids I recently purchased. I have to be really careful what I grow inside. Any plant I buy has to either be hanging from a hook in a the ceiling, in an aquarium or a Wardian case, in this one big bathroom that can be shut off from the rest of the house, or in the exercise room or I can guarantee it would end up eaten by a cat and barfed up or chewed up by a dog and left on the floor in pieces. Well; soccer balls, remote controlled zeplins, and other projectiles have been known to claim a few plants too. 

In the winter, I begin starting trays of temperate species herbaceous perennials and woodies. I don't keep any of these plants. Last year I trayed over 150 different species. That's kind of interesting but I'm cutting back to about 50 this year because we have too many projects on our hands for me to be able to keep up with more than that. Those get cold stratified; either in refrigeration units, the garage, or outside, and then about half are brought down to the basement and grown out under metal halides while the other half are left outside to germinate. This is the main reason why I'd really like to get a commercial hoop house some day. A small one that is around 12 x 20 would work fine for me. I'd also like some cold frames. But these are projects for another year as I'm hoping to start another big project next year. 

Sorry to disappoint you Candace. I really don't have much other than native plants. I'm sure you all will change that over the next few years. If what has happened to me in the past few weeks is any indicator of how this house is going to fill up, I better start drilling more holes in the ceiling quick.


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## Candace (Sep 21, 2007)

> I don't post photos of carnivorous plants any more and don't feel comfortable listing any that I grow unless they are common. I have hundreds and I've had hundreds stolen, not once, but twice now over the years. I took some heavy hits in the past. Other people who grow carnivorous plants have also taken heavy hits so I'm not alone. Sad, very sad.



Yikes. This is what I'm afraid of. Can you tell us what happened?


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## TheLorax (Sep 21, 2007)

It’s hard to say what happened. I don’t understand myself. We travel a lot and there are lots of people coming and going all the time when we are home. I doubt seriously it was any of the children who visited the property in a group but one could have shared what they saw to an older sibling, classmate, or neighborhood kid and then in turn that kid shared what he/she heard and you know how that goes. More likely an adult was at the root to how it came to be that somebody got over here. Many of the people who come here are actively involved in something or other and there’s that seven degrees to separation and all and one very well could have innocently commented to the wrong audience. My husband is convinced it was an online comment or photo. I belonged to another forum but have since ceased posting there. One thing is for sure, I know that NOBODY I am involved with would have let this happen to me intentionally. 

There was a time when I had over 450 distinct species, subspecies, forms, hybrids, and cultivars of CPs. Now I have about a 100. Whoever was here was familiar with the plants. They chose well and we’ll just leave it at that. Sad that they got their hands on three cultivars that exist only in name because those are irreplaceable and died along with the creator and the theft of the three I was growing. Maybe, just maybe there are a handful of people out there quietly growing these three. Can’t even put a value on those three plants because there’s an International market of collectors out there that would probably give up a kidney to be able to get their hands on any one of them. Whoever was here was also familiar with the community and had to have known that people would try to start sending me divisions and seedlings in an attempt to build me back up hence a second visit to my property over a year later. Since then, I haven’t replaced anything and specifically asked people not to even attempt to build me back up. I don’t want any surprises in the mail. I’ll work on that myself over the years to come now that we’ve taken precautions. 

When these people stole mature parent plants from me, they substantially robbed me of my ability to be able to share just about anything with individuals and groups that I work with that need the plants. There was a time when I wished I believed in a Hell so these people would rot in it but now I just cross my fingers hoping they grow and propagate what they stole from me very well so that some day the plants appear in cultivation.


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## Candace (Sep 21, 2007)

I've heard similar stories to this in the orchid community as well. Someone states on a forum that they're going on vacation and ironically their g.h. is pilfered through the during their absence. I'm so sorry you had to go through that and it is sickening. 

I'm so thankful to be surrounded by neighbors I can trust and to have spent a good amount of money on "protection" for my family and home. 'nuff said about the protection.

I'm sorry to hear your story, but maybe it will teach us all to be a little more careful with the information we post on public domains..


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## TheLorax (Sep 21, 2007)

We've got great neighbors however one really can't see the house from the street let alone the actual yard or beyond. I will admit that our dogs may be very big and very ugly and very intimidating but I'm pretty sure they're worthless, absolutely worthless. One doesn't even bark when somebody comes to a door. Another one rarely bothers to even get up. I suppose if startled, one of them might do something to somebody they don't recognize but doubtful. 

Security systems for a home as well as surveillance for the perimeter are great and I'd encourage everyone to do something but that's no substitute for somebody physically being in a home when the whole family is gone. A friend of ours stumbled upon an ad placed by a Seminary student. The ad was pretty simple- References available, will house sit in local area for $75 a day. We called, he came. We've never been happier. We came home and found that while he was here he had even cleaned all the bathrooms. I'm pretty fussy and that spoke volume to me. Our neighbors told us that there were quite a few cars here while we were gone. Turns out he had friends over for study groups. He had asked permission to do this before we left. He had such a great time here, he told all of his friends. So when he completed his studies last year, we had Pastors-to-be basically standing in line to house sit this home. All we had to do was change the code before he came and change it back after he left. Here's what's interesting. When we went on vacation prior to finding this ideal situation; we had to board 3 jumbo dogs, 7 cats, and pay somebody to come out and check on horses. Total cost? $25 per daily trip to the stables, $35 per dog, and $20 per cat. You do the math. So we pay them their $75 per day and give them a nice big fat bonus check. They're happy, we're happy, everyone's happy. Just a thought.


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## TheLorax (Sep 25, 2007)

I've got photos. I'm going to start with my beloved Amorphophallus bulbifer. This is what is left of it after my husband moved it into full sun while I was gone-


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## TheLorax (Sep 25, 2007)

Here are some plumeria seedlings that I have set aside for a project. Soon they will go into the greenhouse until next spring. 

Those are not dead plumeria leaves in and around the pots. That's what is blowing in from oaks and other species that are beginning to drop. I should have pulled them out for the photo. 






More later, gotta run.


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## TheLorax (Sep 26, 2007)

The first growing area I spoke of-





The second growing area I spoke of-





The third growing area I had to make available for slippers (exercise room)-


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## TheLorax (Sep 26, 2007)

My very first slipper that is now a few years old-






This plant started it all for me. When it blooms, I'll probably take a photo of one of the blooms and use it as an avatar. It blooms twice a year generally.


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## TheLorax (Sep 26, 2007)

Some of the places I hang plants to keep them away from cats-
















I have plants hanging in groups in many rooms. These happen to be newer cuttings that I wanted to take photos of to send to friends but I really do hang plants anywhere I can.


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## TheLorax (Sep 26, 2007)

Here are some of the Wardian cases I can grow plants in. I have others but they're duplicates of these-


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## TheLorax (Sep 26, 2007)

Some "other" plants-

The Hymenocallis (not blooming now) that goldenrose liked-





The Curcuma that is sort of past its hay day-





A white Plumeria that might actually bloom next year-





And a few Spiranthes I found this evening that are ready to pop-


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## TheLorax (Sep 26, 2007)

And last but not least, photos of some slipper blooms. This is sort of cheating though because I bought them either blooming or about to bloom-


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## NYEric (Sep 26, 2007)

Nice wardian case! BTW it's not cheating to buy plants in bloom it's hedging your investments.


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## NYEric (Sep 26, 2007)

I just saw the previous page, It looks like you have enough room to double your plant volume!


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## TheLorax (Sep 26, 2007)

Nope, I don't think so. That room is only 16 x 16 and although there is another set of double windows on the east wall, they are totally blocked by oaks from spring through to fall and even then some of them are red oaks and don't drop their leaves until the new growth pushes them out in spring. Very little light comes in those other windows but it is a bright location. About all I can grow there are hoyas. And then the other problem is that there is a tread mill, a stair master, some sort of an exercise bike, and one of those Ab-Doer Pro gut buster thing in there that my husband swore up and down he'd really use. Forgot to add the stand for the tv and vcr so he could watch the Ab-Doer video they sent with his purchase on how to remove 3" from his waistline in under 30 days. 

The other room that I am growing orchids in is actually a master bathroom. What you are seeing is the upper deck to a whirlpool tub. Because of the angle of the sun, plants grown on the left side of the tub receive nothing but very bright indirect light. Plants grown on the right side of the tub get some direct light but not all that much. The light is unobstructed though and the room is painted white with white tile and has very high ceilings. The other thing you aren't seeing from those photos is that there is a large half round decorative window over the top of a double set of windows dirctly over the tub and there are double vanities in that room with something like 6' x 6' mirrors behind them that bounce light everywhere. That's actually a great room to grow plants because we've got a steamer shower in there and he uses it every morning so that helps with the humidity a little bit. 

Basement has small round K-Mart kiddie pools that have metal halides suspended over them with oscillating fans trained over the grow areas. This is where I germinate carnivorous plants. No other plants will be in the same area as my babies. 

Sunroom is only for Pinguicula and I won't mix in any other plants there either. Nepenthes, for the most part, are in separate areas. That leaves the greenhouse and that's only for my Sarracenia so I can maintain the temps exactly where I want them for their dormancy. 

I really am at capacity once I get the last of the plants I ordered delivered and fill up the few remaining spots in my Wardian cases... unless I can grow newly purchased plants outside year round or hang some species of orchid from the ceiling inside the house and even then, all that's left is bright indirect lighting. I'm afraid I'm tapped out of grow space and a second greenhouse is out of the question- no where to put it without ramming it in somewhere odd.

Editing to add that I have quite a few potted patio type plants outside that all get brought into either the greenhouse or the house for the winter. Best guess, about 25 patio pots. That's a lot of floor space needed to over winter those every year.


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## NYEric (Sep 26, 2007)

Phals and paphs like indirect light.


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## Candace (Sep 26, 2007)

You are one dedicated grower! Will you be moving your paphs and phrags into your greenhouse? It must take you quite some time to water without making a mess!


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## TheLorax (Sep 26, 2007)

No, I won't be moving paphs or phrags into the greenhouse. I'm sort of afraid of those right now and I haven't had them all that long. Temps will only be maintained at 40F until February when I will kick it up to 50F and then the next month after that I'll kick it up again. 

Don't get overly impressed. The only plants I water myself are the indoor plants and the acaule in that raised bed I just created. Well, I do water plants I just stuck in the ground until they are established. I cheat on the watering- drip watering systems help. And, I will be creating some sort of an automatic tray watering system sometime next year using floats so that I don't need to fill trays any longer. 

Some potted patio plants will go out there, 10 days after they get a nice Orthene drench that I flush so I can re-drench. I don't care if I lose those plants but I don't want to unintentionally introduce anything to that greenhouse.


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## goldenrose (Sep 26, 2007)

Candace said:


> You are one dedicated grower! Will you be moving your paphs and phrags into your greenhouse? It must take you quite some time to water without making a mess!



Lauren is accustomed to care for plants in MANY different areas!!! She has plants EVERYWHERE - inside & out! I couldn't quite imagine anyone having a GH just for CP's ....... until I saw her collection! OMG!!


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