# Catasetum or Cycnoches????



## biothanasis (Jan 8, 2009)

Hello,

Could someone tell me how to tell if a plant is a Catasetum or a Cycnoches if there are no flowers??? I have resently purchased one plant of each genus! I was not here when they arrived, so my girlfriend treated them and she forgot to put tags on them!!! Shall I have to wait till they bloom??? Is there any differential characteristic??? Thank you in advance!!!


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## P-chan (Jan 8, 2009)

I have a Cycnoches, but not a Catasetum, so I'm not sure what to tell you. I'm pretty new to this part of the orchid world. I'm sure someone will help out soon.  I would like to know also.


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## nikv (Jan 8, 2009)

Not sure if this is gonna help you, but this is a photo of my one and only Cychnodes. 







I don't have a Catasetum, so no help there.

Best Regards,
Nik


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## SlipperFan (Jan 8, 2009)

I don't know, either. I can't tell the difference. If no one here knows, contact Fred Clarke at Sunset Valley Orchids.


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## Rick (Jan 8, 2009)

I think the basic/general plant habit is the same with deciduous leaves on top of a big, kind of rough pseudo bulb. There may be special plant habits for particular species that may help identify them (maybe overall size or leaf shape if they are still in leaf). Some species may not even be deciduous, and that might help.

Do you know what species you are supposed to have?


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## JeanLux (Jan 9, 2009)

Thanasis, in the book 'the world of catasetums' by A. Holst, I almost found no hint allowing to differenciate the 2, except that for cycnoches the flower spike are generally issued higher on the pseudo bulb (upper half), whereas for catasetums *'where inflorescences are produced from the first, second, or third ring above the base ot the pseudobulb, occ. higher, rarely even above the middle (as in the genus Cycnoches)'*! 

. maybe there are rests of old spikes on your plants' bulbs 

Jean


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## biothanasis (Jan 9, 2009)

Hello all, the plants I got are flowering sized plants (2-3 pdbs) and i think they have not bloomes yet!!! One of then is Catasetum tenebrosum and the other one is a Cycnoches hybrid that I do not remember.... I hope I will find out one day of which is what!!! TY all for the info...


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## NYEric (Jan 9, 2009)

Order 2 more and this time put the labels in the right pots! oke:


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## fbrem (Jan 9, 2009)

I want to start off by saying that Catasetinae is one of my favorite groups of orchids, they rock my world. could you post pics of them. I have tenebrosum, some other ctsm. and a few cyc. From what I've seen Ctsm seems to have more stout pseudos and softer wider leaves, whereas Cyc. leaves and pseudos are generally longer and thinner and leaves are stiffer (more cellulose). Take this with a grain though 'cause I've seen only a small sampling of these awesome plants. 

Forrest


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## rdlsreno (Jan 9, 2009)

JeanLux said:


> Thanasis, in the book 'the world of catasetums' by A. Holst, I almost found no hint allowing to differenciate the 2, except that for cycnoches the flower spike are generally issued higher on the pseudo bulb (upper half), whereas for catasetums *'where inflorescences are produced from the first, second, or third ring above the base ot the pseudobulb, occ. higher, rarely even above the middle (as in the genus Cycnoches)'*!
> 
> . maybe there are rests of old spikes on your plants' bulbs
> 
> Jean



True. Catasetum inflorecense usually start from the bottom of the bulbs and Cycnoches between the axil of the leaves.

Ramon


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## biothanasis (Jan 9, 2009)

Maybe Forrest has helped me a bit cause I can see no spike evidence...  (yet...!!) There is a very small difference in the structure of the bulbs, one has round psbs and the other somehow elipsoid (like pressed a little in the sides)! I may post a picture tomorrow!!!

Eric, your suggestion sounds tempting!!!


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## Rick (Jan 10, 2009)

biothanasis said:


> Eric, your suggestion sounds tempting!!!



Actually to get out of statistical bias your girlfriend should buy you 5 more of each plant, and maybe a few of other species for similar comparison, and to test Forrest's observations.

All in the name of science of course!!


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## biothanasis (Jan 11, 2009)

Rick said:


> Actually to get out of statistical bias your girlfriend should buy you 5 more of each plant, and maybe a few of other species for similar comparison, and to test Forrest's observations.
> 
> All in the name of science of course!!



:rollhappy::rollhappy::rollhappy:


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## Kavanaru (Jan 11, 2009)

well... new to this forum, and funny of it, my first entry is not for slipper but for Catasetinae  was just tracked to this thread as this tribe is my big passion, and the one that hooked my into the orchids world...

The most reliable feature to differentiate Catasetum from Cycnoches when not in bloom, is to check where the older spikes were located on the PB: Catasetum at the lower third of the PB, Cycnoches ate the upper third of the PB (& Mormodes in teh middle thrid of the PB). However, there are always some deviations... Ctsm. normally produce 1 - 2 spikes (exceptionally 3 or more), while Cycnoches and Mormodes can produce several spikes per PB.

The size and form of the PB and or leave is not accurate, as some Ctsm. also have long and "slender" PBs, like those normally described for Cycnoches. Same for the leave!

However, something quite accurate too, ist that Cycnoches normally do not have more than 3 or 4 PBs, while Ctsm can form very large clumps of PBs (exceptions for both can be found).


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## rdlsreno (Jan 11, 2009)

Kavanaru said:


> well... new to this forum, and funny of it, my first entry is not for slipper but for Catasetinae  was just tracked to this thread as this tribe is my big passion, and the one that hooked my into the orchids world...
> 
> The most reliable feature to differentiate Catasetum from Cycnoches when not in bloom, is to check where the older spikes were located on the PB: Catasetum at the lower third of the PB, Cycnoches ate the upper third of the PB (& Mormodes in teh middle thrid of the PB). However, there are always some deviations... Ctsm. normally produce 1 - 2 spikes (exceptionally 3 or more), while Cycnoches and Mormodes can produce several spikes per PB.
> 
> ...



Welcome to Slippertalk Kavanaru!


Ramon


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## Kavanaru (Jan 11, 2009)

rdlsreno said:


> Welcome to Slippertalk Kavanaru!
> 
> 
> Ramon



 Thanks! 

I must say I was a bit confused where you knew my name from, then I found out you are also Ramón 

grettings from Ramon (in Switzerland)


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## biothanasis (Jan 12, 2009)

Thank you for the info Ramon!!!


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## sierravista333 (Jan 12, 2009)

Hi Ramón and Ramon... do either of you [or anyone else] know of a forum like this devoted to the Catasetinae... I've been searching for one... but no luck so far. [I've found a blog... and a couple of groups... but no forum yet]
Thanks... Curtis.


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## Kavanaru (Jan 12, 2009)

Hi Curtis,

I am in the same situation as you... I have been looking for Catasetinae Forum, but withot success...


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## biothanasis (Jan 12, 2009)

Welcome Curtis!!!


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## SlipperFan (Jan 12, 2009)

Hi Curtis. Welcome to Slippertalk. I'm not sure, but I think you may be the first member from Mexico.


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## sierravista333 (Jan 12, 2009)

Thanks to all for the Welcome... Mexico is wonderful... where I am there are many epiphytes... but slippers are in short supply. Actually, I'm in California right now caring for elderly parents, and longing for the balmy days in Mexico.
Soon... soon...


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