# Legal Status of Hangianum and Hybrids?



## Happypaphy7 (Jul 23, 2016)

I know it's been talked about a while ago. 
I just want to know what is current.
The only thing I found on AOS page seem outdated?
It says all hybrids are illegal but species itself that entered the U.S. As mature plant past 2011 ( forgot the month) is legal.
What the hell??


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## gonewild (Jul 23, 2016)

Happypaphy7 said:


> I know it's been talked about a while ago.
> I just want to know what is current.
> The only thing I found on AOS page seem outdated?
> It says all hybrids are illegal but species itself that entered the U.S. As mature plant past 2011 ( forgot the month) is legal.
> What the hell??



When that was written all hybrids in the USA could only have been made with illegal parents, thus they are/were illegal.


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## Hien (Jul 23, 2016)

gonewild said:


> When that was written all hybrids in the USA could only have been made with illegal parents, thus they are/were illegal.



Isn't it strange that the rule which applied to orchids is more strict than the rule applied to immigration .
If anyone born in the states is an american and not an illegal alien regardless of the status of the parents then why the authorities keep insisting on oppressing these poor little hybrids made from flasks


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## troy (Jul 23, 2016)

It gives a group of people a wage without actually having to do anything, immigration of people actually require work. Oh the beauty of having a total bullshit govt. Job lol..


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## Tom-DE (Jul 23, 2016)

CITES isn't perfect but it does prevent some plant species from being wiped out of this planet.....most of the agents are working hard to enforce the laws and I respect that.


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## ehanes7612 (Jul 23, 2016)

Fish and Wildlife agents have plenty to do, they earn their keep


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## bullsie (Jul 25, 2016)

What is the status for owning hangianum? Still need the paperwork for it?


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## troy (Jul 25, 2016)

The problem is the local population pulling up whole colonies, of orchids then all them die on their marketplace floor, at least if they were able to send them here they would have a chance!!


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## Tom-DE (Jul 26, 2016)

As long as people(in Europe and N. America) are buying/importing illegal orchids, people in Asia or South America will continue collecting them illegally. If that continues, all of the slipper orchids will disappear on earth someday. *Stop buying illegally-collected orchids!*


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## Ozpaph (Jul 26, 2016)

Tom-DE said:


> . *Stop buying illegally-collected orchids!*



Amen!


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## NYEric (Jul 26, 2016)

N. That determination of legality is old enough that there are mature plants of both the species and it's hybrids to be legal. In a crunch an ambitious USF&G official could ask you to produce documents but ..I don't think the AOS would require them now.


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## troy (Jul 26, 2016)

The fact is orchids are sought after and as long as they are no matter what unintellegant, or uneducated or just plain ignorant of knowing that they are going extinct the local people are going to uproot whole colonies and take them to the local market, maybe a few will make it to a place where people have enough sense to keep it alive the others will die, so tom de please tell me that you are smart and understand that or get everybody on the hate bandwagon


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## Tom-DE (Jul 26, 2016)

troy said:


> The fact is orchids are sought after and as long as they are no matter what unintellegant, or uneducated or just plain ignorant of knowing that they are going extinct the local people are going to uproot whole colonies and take them to the local market, maybe a few will make it to a place where people have enough sense to keep it alive the others will die, so tom de please tell me that you are smart and understand that or get everybody on the hate bandwagon



The only uneducated or plain stupid ones are those who ignore the laws, buying and importing illegally-collected orchids. How many Paph. armeniacum and micranthum colonies have been wiped out in China? The first Mexipedium xerophyticum colony is gone, and the list can go on and on....Conservation is not in local people's mind. Making money is only purpose. They collect what they can and sell them on the market. Many of those illegally-collected orchids will die on the market before they sell them, and that doesn't bother them! As long as people in N.America and Europe are buying them, the locals just go out to get more until they are all gone. No demand, no supply! If you are truly smart and educated, you should understand the theory, right?.......... We don't have plenty of orchids in wild and they don't grow like weeds! Got it this time, boy?
BTW, "hate bandwagon"? You must have some chips on your shoulder!


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## troy (Jul 26, 2016)

The us is not the only place thats interested in orchids, in europe and other countries they are more lienant, I'm sure there are more species alive in our collections than in the wild, the only setback is we have been breeding for award purposes not for their survival......


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## Happypaphy7 (Jul 26, 2016)

Guys, please keep it relevant to the subject here, hangianum and its hybrid.

Thanks!


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## Chicago Chad (Jul 27, 2016)

I think something should be said for Holger Perner. Most of us here would not even have a hangianum or a hang hybrid if he did not take on the venture he has.


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## troy (Jul 27, 2016)

Everybody should send holger and wenging thank you emails!!!! They are truly great people!!


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## tomkalina (Jul 27, 2016)

I consider this the great failure of CITES. There's been a ton of money spent on enforcement by all signatories to the treaty; money that should have been spent setting up propagation facilities in the countries of origin. It would have benefited the countries of origin financially, and taken pressure off the natural habitat -re: illegal collection.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jul 27, 2016)

Couldn't agree with you more, Tom!
Sigh~ 

Btw, are you the one who made the cross Jennifer Kalina ( chamberlainianum x malipoense)?
I have one plant which I think is ready to flower soon. 
Can't wait!!!!


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## John M (Jul 27, 2016)

tomkalina said:


> I consider this the great failure of CITES. There's been a ton of money spent on enforcement by all signatories to the treaty; money that should have been spent setting up propagation facilities in the countries of origin. It would have benefited the countries of origin financially, and taken pressure off the natural habitat -re: illegal collection.



I agree! It would be much better if a fraction of the money (that governments spend policing, prosecuting and imprisoning people), was spent on setting up labs in the countries of origin and guarding the wild colonies of highly desireable species. Unlike rare, large Mammals, most orchids can be mass produced by the hundreds of thousands by skilled technicians in a lab. There is NO need for plants to be "illegal"! Wild collonies of commercially valuable plants should be protected and managed properly. A relatively small number of seed capsules should be collected on an annual basis and local labs with skilled technicians should be contracted to grow those seeds into a saleable commodity for the world market. This way, everyone wins. The wild colonies are actively protected from poachers; keeping the number of wild plants stable and preserving gentic diversity in the natural habitat. The local human population gets to earn a living exploiting the local resource in a sustainable way and vendors and hobbyists all over the world get to enjoy owning and growing the lab produced plants, guilt free. 

The whole concept of plants being "illegal" is absolutely ridiculous and it shows just how much people in government can be nothing more than a bunch of ignorant, idiot boneheads. The same rules, regulations and restrictions should NOT apply to animals and plants equally, as it does now with CITES. A single hobbyist with time and materials, as well as a laminar flow hood in his basement, could single-handedly propagate an extremely rare species by the thousands and bring it from the brink of extinction and make it very common in cultivation. That can't be done with rare and endangered animals.


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## tomkalina (Jul 27, 2016)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Couldn't agree with you more, Tom!
> Sigh~
> 
> Btw, are you the one who made the cross Jennifer Kalina ( chamberlainianum x malipoense)?
> ...



I am. Named it after my youngest daughter, Jennifer. Hope your's flowers nicely!


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## troy (Jul 27, 2016)

Very well said john m!!!! I agree


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## s1214215 (Aug 3, 2016)

On the matter of CITES protecting orchids. Its easy to say that people in other countries are to blame for the mass pillaging of orchids in the wild. Sure blame people in the EU, USA etc. Its bull however. I spent a decade living in SE Asian and the bulk of wild orchids are sold to locals. The internal markers for many countries like China, Thailand Malaysia etc far exceed what is exported. That said the borders in the region are so porous and CITES can do very very little to prevent flows from Vietnam to Thailand, Malaysia to Thailand, Burma, China. Its very hard to police. On top of this, it is totally legal to collect plants in China as long as they are not in national parks. So if countries dont have laws in place to protect plants internally, its not going to help much is it? The reality is unless countries really want to protect what they have, shut down the internal markets, it wont make a dent in the problem of illegal collection. Cry about exports to overseas, but its s drop in the bucket.


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## s1214215 (Aug 3, 2016)

I am with you John M. Most governments, bureaucrats are boneheads. It would be much better to have legalised breeding programs and get grass roots movements involved in plant conservation. Hey but that would be sensible wouldnt it. 

Ah well, its probably all going to be cooked with global warming soon anyway as not one gives a toss about that too it seems.


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## SlipperFan (Aug 3, 2016)

s1214215 said:


> I am with you John M. Most governments, bureaucrats are boneheads. It would be much better to have legalised breeding programs and get grass roots movements involved in plant conservation. Hey but that would be sensible wouldnt it.
> 
> Ah well, its probably all going to be cooked with global warming soon anyway as not one gives a toss about that too it seems.



I think that attitude is gradually changing. Hope it is not too late.


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## s1214215 (Aug 4, 2016)

Dot I can only hope people change their tune about global warming as all the scientific people I know say we are heading for extinction or close too it if we do not.

Brett


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## Tom-DE (Aug 4, 2016)

s1214215 said:


> On the matter of CITES protecting orchids. Its easy to say that people in other countries are to blame for the mass pillaging of orchids in the wild. Sure blame people in the EU, USA etc. Its bull however. I spent a decade living in SE Asian and the bulk of wild orchids are sold to locals. The internal markers for many countries like China, Thailand Malaysia etc far exceed what is exported. That said the borders in the region are so porous and CITES can do very very little to prevent flows from Vietnam to Thailand, Malaysia to Thailand, Burma, China. Its very hard to police. On top of this, it is totally legal to collect plants in China as long as they are not in national parks. So if countries dont have laws in place to protect plants internally, its not going to help much is it? The reality is unless countries really want to protect what they have, shut down the internal markets, it wont make a dent in the problem of illegal collection. Cry about exports to overseas, but its s drop in the bucket.



Brett, I probably will agree most of what you said and observed, however, those illegally-collected wild orchids for the *big *"international" buyers will never show up on the daily local markets, so there are far more than just few wild orchids that are illegally coming into EU and North America each year.... regardless what CITES and local laws may or may not allow you, if you(orchid hobbyist) really care about conservation, you should never buy any illegally-collected orchids. 
If you do want to import orchids, please check out the federal and state regulations carefully. Obviously we have some expert(good and bad) opinions posted here and on other threads, but do your own home-works also. Just remember, that person who gave you the "great" advice is not the one going to jail.


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## NYEric (Aug 5, 2016)

Neal, read my first post. 
I'm curious to know if there are any "big international buyers " of Paphs in the USA. If there are, they must be eating the huge shipments.


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## gonewild (Aug 5, 2016)

SlipperFan said:


> I think that attitude is gradually changing. Hope it is not too late.



Global warming will help the plant populations not hurt them. More C02 and fewer humans. It's the only solution.


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## Tom-DE (Aug 5, 2016)

NYEric said:


> I'm curious to know if there are any "big international buyers " of Paphs in the USA. If there are, they must be eating the huge shipments.



Although you have said a lot on "Everything", you have no clue sometimes, Eric. To begin with, I am not just talking about Paphs or just talking about what happens/happened in Asia. I am talking about all illegally collected orchids worldwide. The international demands for wild species is still strong, especially in less restricted countries. When the locals fill those orders, they just clean out one local colony to another until they're all gone. I blame this on the buyers because they are the ones who have choices and financial powers. And, I doubt all the illegally collected orchids are for commercial...they might "eat" them privately.
If you(orchid hobbyist) care about conservation, don't buy wild collected species! and while you are on vacation, please don't steal a few from the forests and try to bring them in by yourself. The custom agents are watching you and the local goverments (for example, Costa Rica) are watching you also!


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## Tom-DE (Aug 5, 2016)

BTW, how many of you still think the wild species is the only real species? 
I guess some do think that way.....and I think that is one of the reasons why the wild orchids are still in such a demand.


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## Chicago Chad (Aug 5, 2016)

Once again, I want to reiterate that if Perner did not take on the venture he has, I am fairly certain that every hangianum available would be without paperwork.


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## troy (Aug 5, 2016)

One thing is sure of the wild plants only the strong survive and carry those genes over n over regardless of flatness and roundness of flower, that beiing an awardable flower species plant will not survive in the wild if put there


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## troy (Aug 5, 2016)

Tom de read the canhii thread a new person who has lived in those countries explains it!!!! I don't know why you insist on saying we are the problem!!!???


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## NYEric (Aug 5, 2016)

Tom, I specifically said Paphs.


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## troy (Aug 5, 2016)

Pictures of my hangianums and hybrids







These are growing very well, all the plants have active new roots, so if one of these were put back into the wild it would probably survive


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## NYEric (Aug 6, 2016)

If it they were put back into the wild they would probably end up in a market in China!


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## troy (Aug 6, 2016)

Lol....


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## Tom-DE (Aug 6, 2016)

troy said:


> Tom de....I don't know why you insist on saying we are the problem!!!???



Well, certainly the "we" you are referring is part of the problem....There will be no supply if there is no demand! I guess you still don't get it.

NYEric, I *was not* talking about Paph. hangianum at the beginning...Matter of fact, I had no intention to talk about Paphs. My first post was for Troy's commends on U.S. gov't agents. CITES is not perfect as I mentioned on my first post, but if there is no CITES, the "we" people will buy all the wild collected orchids without any restrictions, and guess what would happen to the wild orchid population then?


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## troy (Aug 6, 2016)

Tom, I guess you didn't read my last posting, in the canhii thread there is a guy who lives or lived in the wild collected plant regions, he breaks it down how the orchid extinction problem is happening, I'm guessing you just want to be angry annd take anger out on somebody, me beiing an easy target for you


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## C. Rothschild (Aug 6, 2016)

*divisions?*

I can't say that 100% of those orchids on eBay from China weren't propagated in someone's backyard. I mean if the conditions were perfect they could be divisions from a garden. Not sure if that's possible with Hangianums. The climate and everything would have to be just right to have enough extras to sell. That being said if there was some website that clearly stated it's illegal to buy then I wouldn't. I've tried to find a clear answer about buying orchids from China but never received a reply.


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## troy (Aug 6, 2016)

Hengduan mountains biotechnology, holger and wenging perner sell propagated hangianum plants & flasks


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## s1214215 (Aug 6, 2016)

Tom-DE said:


> Brett, I probably will agree most of what you said and observed, however, those illegally-collected wild orchids for the *big *"international" buyers will never show up on the daily local markets, so there are far more than just few wild orchids that are illegally coming into EU and North America each year.... regardless what CITES and local laws may or may not allow you, if you(orchid hobbyist) really care about conservation, you should never buy any illegally-collected orchids.
> If you do want to import orchids, please check out the federal and state regulations carefully. Obviously we have some expert(good and bad) opinions posted here and on other threads, but do your own home-works also. Just remember, that person who gave you the "great" advice is not the one going to jail.



I would not import illegally collected plants knowingly Tom. That said, I get annoyed that bureaucrazy seldom seems to care about propagation programs to help make plants legally available. I mean woudlnt it make sense to propagate an plant like Paph rungsuriyanum and take a percentage of sales money and put it back into local conservation? Locking plants up doesnt work, and thats easy to see. Well luckily CITES in Australia accepted 2 flasks of that species a friend and I were able to get. :clap: So now I will work on growing them to blooming size with him, and then flasking them.. Hopefully in the years to come they can legally be exported. I feel that is the best way to protect them in the wild. Make them legally available with CITES docs. Why buy illegal plants if you can get legal ones.


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## s1214215 (Aug 6, 2016)

I always feel sad when I look at it being totally legal to collect plants in China, as long as they are not in a national park.


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## Tom-DE (Aug 6, 2016)

troy said:


> Tom, I guess you didn't read my last posting, in the canhii thread there is a guy who lives or lived in the wild collected plant regions, he breaks it down how the orchid extinction problem is happening, I'm guessing you just want to be angry annd take anger out on somebody, me beiing an easy target for you



No, I am not picking on you and I am not angry with you. I just have problem with your commends on the agents and people who ignore CITES. Am I against collecting wild orchids? You bet I am! Do I think lab propagation is a great solution? Absolutely! but we can't ignore illegal wild orchid trade and blame CITES for whatever reasons.

@ the canhii thread, I have read it.... I have known Brett through forums for years and I certainly know he used to live in southeast Asia before he moved back to Australia.... but that is his story and opinion. What he said on that thread is not relevant to what I tried to say here .... I wish him good luck with his canhii and his endeavor in Australia.


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## Tom-DE (Aug 6, 2016)

s1214215 said:


> I always feel sad when I look at it being totally legal to collect plants in China, as long as they are not in a national park.



Brett, I can't commend on the situation in China because I don't know the details.... however, you can always help to solve the problem by not buying them! They won't collect them if there is no market for the orchids.


@*"Locking up plants doesn't work"*. No it doesn't! It kill the plants in most cases but it is necessary! The agents are there to enforce the laws. If the plants are legal and they are brought in with all the necessary documents and permits, then the agents won't "lock up" the plants. Should they handle the "locked-up" plants differently? Perhaps! They could ask some botanical gardens for help, but that is easier said than done and it could lead to other problems or situations as well if the program is not managed properly. They tried here in US with some orchid nurseries but I am not sure how successful the program was.


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## NYEric (Aug 6, 2016)

Most of the rung were collected by a responsible collector for the purpose of propagation.


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## Tom-DE (Aug 6, 2016)

NYEric said:


> Most of the rung were collected by a responsible collector for the purpose of propagation.



I hate to say this sounds a lot like one of our presidential candidates! but do explain!


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## troy (Aug 6, 2016)

Lol!!!!! Tom de what are you growing anyways? if you have not lived in the country of origion that orchids grow in read the canhii thread, if you have not read the thread then you are pointless to talk to, if you have read the thread then you just don't get it. Are you a smart person?....


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## Tom-DE (Aug 6, 2016)

troy said:


> Lol!!!!! Tom de if you have not lived in the country of origion that orchids grow in read the canhii thread, if you have not read the thread then you are pointless to talk to, if you have read the thread then you just don't get it which also makes you pointless to talk to



Troy, please explain what Brett said on that canhii thread is relevant to what I said here. If you can't do that, you need to improve your reading skill! Take a class and educate yourself! Perhaps there is no point to talk to a thin skinned person like you.

FYI, I have not seen it all and done it all, but I can tell you I have visited countries, rain forests and the local markets, far more than you can imagine, kiddo.


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## troy (Aug 6, 2016)

It's what new s.t. member s1214215 says in that thread


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## Tom-DE (Aug 6, 2016)

troy said:


> It's what new s.t. member s1214215 says in that thread


His name is Brett and he has been a member here since 2009. I know who he is and He also posted on this thread few times.

Read both threads again from the beginning and explain why what he said is relevant to what I said here in your opinion.


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## Tom-DE (Aug 6, 2016)

*@what I am growing?* Since you asked after I quoted your post, Troy. 
Not many now. I sold my collection last year, ~1000 plants(mainly I/C growing miniature species--from A to Z, but also including Paphs Phals and Cattleyas and things in between)....... I have/had been growing orchids for over 30 years either in greenhouse or under light, and I posted thousands of photos of my orchids on other forums/internet. I will post some photos here once I find an easy way to do that.

Let's hear about your collection and experience, shall we?


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## troy (Aug 6, 2016)

Well I'm very new, 4 years growing orchids, some bulbophylums, cattyleas dendrobiums mostly slippers, paphs & phrags, I've been studying up, you have been growing 30 years is a long time, I could probably learn quite abit about orchids from you, the point I'm trying to get you to understand is people who live in tropical regions, native orchid growing areas say 95 percent of orchid colinies stripped out of wild go to people that live within driving distance of the local marketplace, and the local rich person 'collector' will pay top dollar to the scmuck who finds one closest described to the desire of the pursuer, the other 5 percent would be shipped over seas and propagated to which you or I would be growing, the problem is not us 15,000 miles away the problem is the locals within 100 miles drive radius


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## Tom-DE (Aug 7, 2016)

Troy, you mixed up the treads, didn't you? I am not going to discuss the *same* issue again, so read what I've posted on this thread regarding what Brett said. If you still don't get it, let's say we agree we disagree each other. I would rather spend time talking about the effect of deforestation.

One last thing I must say, the gov't agents are not freeloaders as you implied. Although the CITES is not perfect, it probably is one of the best things that have ever happened to the wild orchids. I doubt you will agree that.


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## troy (Aug 7, 2016)

Please read what I said in the above post, it would seem that for some reason you are a knucklehead and don't get it


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## Tom-DE (Aug 7, 2016)

"knucklehead"? LOL! I have not been called "knucklehead" since I was a little kid. Thank you for the laugh...... but serious though, you don't want to start that kind of game here with me........


Your last post/message is not based on facts. That is all in your head. Where is the percentage from? Even Brett would not use percentage to make his point earlier. Get real, Troy! If you can't understand people's posts or follow from thread to thread, sit and take a reading class.


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## NYEric (Aug 7, 2016)

Tom-DE said:


> I hate to say this sounds a lot like one of our presidential candidates! but do explain!


What needs explaining? I know what I stated. Unlike what occurred with canhii, a more responsible collection occurred.


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## s1214215 (Aug 10, 2016)

Tom-DE said:


> Brett, I can't commend on the situation in China because I don't know the details.... however, you can always help to solve the problem by not buying them! They won't collect them if there is no market for the orchids.
> 
> True, but again the market for Chinese orchids internationally is very small to the internal market. I guess thats my point. We can go on about plants crossing borders, but some countries like China, and Thailand for example, their local markets are massive.
> 
> ...


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