# What's Everyone's Experience with Paphiopedilum vietnamense?



## Happypaphy7 (Jul 27, 2022)

I suspect it is nothing like delenatii and more like other parvis? haha 
Please include your growing conditions in detail so this will be educational for all.
Thanks in advance!


----------



## NYEric (Jul 28, 2022)

Don't get me started!


----------



## abax (Jul 28, 2022)

By all means, get started Eric. We'll be more educated and entertained.


----------



## Justin (Jul 29, 2022)

I grow them in Orchiata mix. They like a lot of water. I killed several over the years, but have a couple from Taiwan circa 2014 that grow robustly. 

They are difficult to bloom well. Mine usually blast or the flower does not fully open. Form is poor. I still love them


----------



## Paph Paradise (Jul 29, 2022)

This species can be a bit of a pain. They are subjected to a very wet monsoon in the summer, but they grow on limestone cliffs so they are never sitting in water. The winters are dry, but cool enough to provide heavy dew. We like to give them good drainage and extra calcium in the mix in the form of crushed oyster shells. 
Paph vietnamense may appreciate beneficial microbes. I know someone who used a mycorrhizal product and grew a huge clump of growths. Then he couldn't find the product again and the plant went backwards. Ours grow and flower well, but never keep the old growths for too long. I suspect they are dependent on their association with mycorrhizae in nature and we can't quite replicate that.
Dave


----------



## Guldal (Jul 29, 2022)

I can only chime in with the experience, that the first vietnamense I had in bloom died (it was a first time bloomer, and I should probably have cut it immediately after I took the photo). RIP:


----------



## chris20 (Jul 29, 2022)

I killed one rather quickly—also a Ho Chi Min. Delenatii does well for me.


----------



## Happypaphy7 (Jul 30, 2022)

Thanks for the input, everyone! 
Keep it coming!


----------



## Happypaphy7 (Jul 30, 2022)

chris20 said:


> I killed one rather quickly—also a Ho Chi Min. Delenatii does well for me.


I have tried quite a few HCM myself and find them easy just like delenatii. Amazing what delenatii can do!


----------



## Happypaphy7 (Jul 30, 2022)

Guldal said:


> I can only chime in with the experience, that the first vietnamense I had in bloom died (it was a first time bloomer, and I should probably have cut it immediately after I took the photo). RIP:
> View attachment 35616


Did you get this one when Orchid Inn travelled to EU or did they export to you??
It is a nice flower. What a shame it died on you! 
By the way, I don't believe in cutting the flower off. At least you got to enjoy the flower while it lasted. Imagine you cut it off and the plant died anyway? Yikes!!


----------



## mSummers (Jul 30, 2022)

Paph Paradise said:


> This species can be a bit of a pain. They are subjected to a very wet monsoon in the summer, but they grow on limestone cliffs so they are never sitting in water. The winters are dry, but cool enough to provide heavy dew. We like to give them good drainage and extra calcium in the mix in the form of crushed oyster shells.
> Paph vietnamense may appreciate beneficial microbes. I know someone who used a mycorrhizal product and grew a huge clump of growths. Then he couldn't find the product again and the plant went backwards. Ours grow and flower well, but never keep the old growths for too long. I suspect they are dependent on their association with mycorrhizae in nature and we can't quite replicate that.
> Dave


Do you remember what type of mycorrhizae product your friend used? I’d like to try that if I can find another supplier.


----------



## hamiltons (Jul 30, 2022)

Guldal said:


> I can only chime in with the experience, that the first vietnamense I had in bloom died (it was a first time bloomer, and I should probably have cut it immediately after I took the photo). RIP:
> View attachment 35616


Sad story, similar to some of my own sad stories about Orchids that died, especially vietnamense, it can be a tough cookie to deal with, I have had a number of them too, with varying success, this one looked very nice Guldal, and I can see that you grow in Greenmix toomy success rate has improved a Lot since I began with this Media more than 25 years ago, I have a vietnamense now from Popow thas has survived 2 years now from seedling so I am hopeful that it will maybe Bloom eventually...PS: Guldal IT would still be nice if you send me a private message


----------



## lori.b (Jul 31, 2022)

It's like a teenage girl! (Which I once was.......) With that said, I've had my vietnamense since 2013 and I got it to bloom quite easily twice in the early days. Then it became extremely temperamental. I repotted it in Orchiata/perlite/pumice/charcoal a couple years ago and it's been bouncing back slowly. It's watered regularly year round and I now fertilize mostly with MSU/CalMag.


----------



## Cklinger (Jul 31, 2022)

I have a seedling a couple years old and a compot in seedling size orchiata, perlite, and charcoal. I’ve learned from the seedling that I need to keep it more wet than anything else I seem to have. I use K-Lite as well but they’re all doing quite well!


----------



## Suchortomena (Jul 31, 2022)

In April around 12 years ago I bought a _P_. _vietnamense_ on an orchid exhibition in the Palmengarten in Frankfurt Germany. The plant was, with several other species (mostly without label), that all were in bad condition (damaged leaves, no flowers or buds) on a bargain bin. As I saw the broad leaves I was convinced to know what it was. Costing only ten Euros, the plant was very cheap, so I took the risk. At home I planted it in a mixture of coarse pumice, charcoal and bark and placed it on the windowsill (southwest exposition northern hemisphere) next to my other plants. A new grow emerged three to four months later. Around two years later, the plant flowered for the first time. Since then, this plants flowers regularly around every two years (two years ago with three flowers, this year with one flower). I have transplanted it only twice in the meantime, always in the same mixture. Since then, this plant produced several capsules (mostly hybrid pollination).

I have sown these seeds on a coarse mixture of pumice and pine bark, that I first sterilized in zip log freezer bags (in the microwave), then infected with soil particles from other pots where orchids germinate, after some months of resting to let the fungus develop its mycelium. It usually does not work with all bags, but with my restricted space, I get enough seedlings. They can stay in the bag for around two to three years.

In my personal experience the species is not difficult at all. As I have experienced so often, the main problem in successful culture of _Paphiopedilum_ is to eradicate pests like _Tenuipalpus pacificus_ and _Brevipalpus_ spp. These mites are present in so many professional cultures where they are held down so that they cause only minor damage. When such a plant comes into a new culture (especially where the air is drier), these pests explode and destroy. Because of that, every new plant in my culture is put into a sealed bag, poisoned and stays there for at least four months.

All the best,
Ralph


----------



## Suchortomena (Jul 31, 2022)




----------



## Happypaphy7 (Jul 31, 2022)

Cklinger said:


> I have a seedling a couple years old and a compot in seedling size orchiata, perlite, and charcoal. I’ve learned from the seedling that I need to keep it more wet than anything else I seem to have. I use K-Lite as well but they’re all doing quite well!


It might have a lot to do with the climate also? Parvis in general occur in the area where they go through cold winter and cool to vaguely warm summers based on what I have read about their habitat info. 
Nothing beats good growing conditions.


----------



## Happypaphy7 (Jul 31, 2022)

Suchortomena said:


> In April around 12 years ago I bought a _P_. _vietnamense_ on an orchid exhibition in the Palmengarten in Frankfurt Germany. The plant was, with several other species (mostly without label), that all were in bad condition (damaged leaves, no flowers or buds) on a bargain bin. As I saw the broad leaves I was convinced to know what it was. Costing only ten Euros, the plant was very cheap, so I took the risk. At home I planted it in a mixture of coarse pumice, charcoal and bark and placed it on the windowsill (southwest exposition northern hemisphere) next to my other plants. A new grow emerged three to four months later. Around two years later, the plant flowered for the first time. Since then, this plants flowers regularly around every two years (two years ago with three flowers, this year with one flower). I have transplanted it only twice in the meantime, always in the same mixture. Since then, this plant produced several capsules (mostly hybrid pollination).
> 
> I have sown these seeds on a coarse mixture of pumice and pine bark, that I first sterilized in zip log freezer bags (in the microwave), then infected with soil particles from other pots where orchids germinate, after some months of resting to let the fungus develop its mycelium. It usually does not work with all bags, but with my restricted space, I get enough seedlings. They can stay in the bag for around two to three years.
> 
> ...


Ralph,
Thank you for photos and the detailed info regarding your experience with the species.

I also find those annoying flat mites a potential major problem. Parvis with the unique colors on their leaf underside, it makes spotting the presence of the flat mites very difficult about 8-10 times smaller than common red spider mites) unless one takes a very close look and knows what they are looking at. 
Often, it is when the infestation has progressed quite a bit.


----------



## Cklinger (Aug 1, 2022)

Happypaphy7 said:


> It might have a lot to do with the climate also? Parvis in general occur in the area where they go through cold winter and cool to vaguely warm summers based on what I have read about their habitat info.
> Nothing beats good growing conditions.


Very true. In my enclosure it reaches around 68-70 F in the winter and around 82 F in summer, they seem to be doing well


----------



## Paph Paradise (Aug 1, 2022)

mSummers said:


> Do you remember what type of mycorrhizae product your friend used? I’d like to try that if I can find another supplier.


Sorry, I don't know what it was. Some sort of a powdered formula. Thanks to the pot industry there are many of these preparations out there at hydroponics stores now. I plan to do a trial with a few of them when I find the time. Just be careful as the liquid ones usually create a very acidic solution. We buffer them with potassium hydroxide.
Dave


----------



## mSummers (Aug 2, 2022)

Paph Paradise said:


> Sorry, I don't know what it was. Some sort of a powdered formula. Thanks to the pot industry there are many of these preparations out there at hydroponics stores now. I plan to do a trial with a few of them when I find the time. Just be careful as the liquid ones usually create a very acidic solution. We buffer them with potassium hydroxide.
> Dave


Thanks Dave. I think I’m going to wait to try anything until after my plant decides to divide itself. I’m hopeful that this one is awardable based on its first bloom and don’t want to kill it in an experiment.


----------



## Justin (Aug 4, 2022)

Suchortomena said:


> In April around 12 years ago I bought a _P_. _vietnamense_ on an orchid exhibition in the Palmengarten in Frankfurt Germany. The plant was, with several other species (mostly without label), that all were in bad condition (damaged leaves, no flowers or buds) on a bargain bin. As I saw the broad leaves I was convinced to know what it was. Costing only ten Euros, the plant was very cheap, so I took the risk. At home I planted it in a mixture of coarse pumice, charcoal and bark and placed it on the windowsill (southwest exposition northern hemisphere) next to my other plants. A new grow emerged three to four months later. Around two years later, the plant flowered for the first time. Since then, this plants flowers regularly around every two years (two years ago with three flowers, this year with one flower). I have transplanted it only twice in the meantime, always in the same mixture. Since then, this plant produced several capsules (mostly hybrid pollination).
> 
> I have sown these seeds on a coarse mixture of pumice and pine bark, that I first sterilized in zip log freezer bags (in the microwave), then infected with soil particles from other pots where orchids germinate, after some months of resting to let the fungus develop its mycelium. It usually does not work with all bags, but with my restricted space, I get enough seedlings. They can stay in the bag for around two to three years.
> 
> ...



Truly remarkable!


----------



## orchid527 (Aug 4, 2022)

Suchortomena said:


> In my personal experience the species is not difficult at all. As I have experienced so often, the main problem in successful culture of _Paphiopedilum_ is to eradicate pests like _Tenuipalpus pacificus_ and _Brevipalpus_ spp. These mites are present in so many professional cultures where they are held down so that they cause only minor damage. When such a plant comes into a new culture (especially where the air is drier), these pests explode and destroy. Because of that, every new plant in my culture is put into a sealed bag, poisoned and stays there for at least four months.


THIS, THIS, THIS, 

I have been thinking about this comment and I believe it may be the single most important piece of information ever presented in this forum. I have been examining leaves of weak/dying plants under a microscope and I am finding a nearly perfect correlation with the presence of mites. They cannot be seen with a magnifying glass and they leave no red stain when wiped with a tissue. They are easy to control, but you have to investigate plants that are failing for no good reason. Mike


----------



## DrLeslieEe (Nov 10, 2022)

Suchortomena said:


> In April around 12 years ago I bought a _P_. _vietnamense_ on an orchid exhibition in the Palmengarten in Frankfurt Germany. The plant was, with several other species (mostly without label), that all were in bad condition (damaged leaves, no flowers or buds) on a bargain bin. As I saw the broad leaves I was convinced to know what it was. Costing only ten Euros, the plant was very cheap, so I took the risk. At home I planted it in a mixture of coarse pumice, charcoal and bark and placed it on the windowsill (southwest exposition northern hemisphere) next to my other plants. A new grow emerged three to four months later. Around two years later, the plant flowered for the first time. Since then, this plants flowers regularly around every two years (two years ago with three flowers, this year with one flower). I have transplanted it only twice in the meantime, always in the same mixture. Since then, this plant produced several capsules (mostly hybrid pollination).
> 
> I have sown these seeds on a coarse mixture of pumice and pine bark, that I first sterilized in zip log freezer bags (in the microwave), then infected with soil particles from other pots where orchids germinate, after some months of resting to let the fungus develop its mycelium. It usually does not work with all bags, but with my restricted space, I get enough seedlings. They can stay in the bag for around two to three years.
> 
> ...



Ralph, based on your pictures of the leaves and flowers of your plant, it looks like Ho Chi Minh, which is easily confused with vietnamense. Sorry to be bearer of this unfortunate news. 

The differences are pretty clear if you grow both side by side as I have for many years.

The vietnamense leaves have an undulating edge, never straight as in HCM. They are also extra shiny like a coat of wax is poured over them. The mottle patterns are also very different from those of HCM, which forms whorls while vietnamense are in patches.

The flowers of HCM have a very distinctly marked staminode with red markings, while vietnamense have a pure green staminode veins (never any red on them). The pouch of the vietnamense also have a very rounded bottom, never pointy like HCM. 

With these differences, there is a clear distinction between the vietnamense vs HCM.

I might be mistaken with your photo analysis but check again your plant and flower to compare these differences?


----------



## richgarrison (Nov 10, 2022)

orchid527 said:


> THIS, THIS, THIS,
> 
> I have been thinking about this comment and I believe it may be the single most important piece of information ever presented in this forum. I have been examining leaves of weak/dying plants under a microscope and I am finding a nearly perfect correlation with the presence of mites. They cannot be seen with a magnifying glass and they leave no red stain when wiped with a tissue. They are easy to control, but you have to investigate plants that are failing for no good reason. Mike


100% with you on that. I’d also say that other ‘in pot’ ailments can go undiagnosed and take out a plant without any indication of why. Other than. ‘I lost my root system’. Repotting may address the local concerns of that plant, but without a holistic perspective on hygiene and maintenance, more ‘wtf am I doing wrong’ scenarios just keep cropping up. When I see evidence now, I take on an entire greenhouse, pot by pot drench and spraying program. That appears to be keeping things in check, but a 6 month interval on the drench just seems to be the natural course of events. 

Funny that there are more than a few folks I know that wonder about ‘issues’ others have that they don’t. And when queried more. You find out, Ya I do a yearly drench with ‘something that kills everything’, or. I naturally include physan in my irrigation water, or I put some soap in my water on a regular basis, Or. One person that says they smell chlorine after they water (they were on city water…). Anyhoo…. Ya to the mites thing.


----------



## Djthomp28 (Nov 10, 2022)

@richgarrison I agree. As an inside grower half the year, I am conscience of mites populations exploding with the transition inside where the humidity drops. Generally I treat the entire collections starting in late August/early September to bring down the pest populations before bringing things inside for their winter vacation. What do you use specifically for mites?


----------



## richgarrison (Nov 11, 2022)

I rotate amongst pylon, abemectin, and azamax. If I’m foggingfor something else I’ll include some soap


----------



## DrLeslieEe (Nov 11, 2022)

I use Safers Soap, Horticultural oil and Pyrethrins in rotation.


----------



## Happypaphy7 (Nov 11, 2022)

DrLeslieEe said:


> Ralph, based on your pictures of the leaves and flowers of your plant, it looks like Ho Chi Minh, which is easily confused with vietnamense. Sorry to be bearer of this unfortunate news.
> 
> The differences are pretty clear if you grow both side by side as I have for many years.
> 
> ...



All the HCM I have had had an undulating edge on their leaves. Also, I have seen quite a few vietnamense without such a feature. 

The leaves alone in those photos do not look odd at all for being a vietnamense to me. 
The flower staminode has a little bit of dark pigments, but then again, I don't know. It doesn't really throw me off.
Usually, the staminode on the species is green to greenish yellow while the flower is fresh. I have seen some with little bit of dark pigments. 
Now, nearly every single HCM I have seen had two very distinctive vertical dark bars or one big dark merged area near the center of the staminode. 
This is a hard case, but I can't say it isn't vietnamense with the reasons you propose.


----------



## DrLeslieEe (Nov 12, 2022)

Those two staminode dark marks are the ones that make me doubtful. The staminode as we know is the final determination of a species ID. 

The leaves are secondary to my assessment (although I’ve never seen a smooth leaves adult vietnamense that wasn’t a mistaken HCM).

But must see in real life for sure to be able to tell.

Caveat: I’m not a taxonomist, but just merely observations from growing/judging them and from literature research .


----------



## Happypaphy7 (Nov 15, 2022)

DrLeslieEe said:


> Those two staminode dark marks are the ones that make me doubtful. The staminode as we know is the final determination of a species ID.
> 
> The leaves are secondary to my assessment (although I’ve never seen a smooth leaves adult vietnamense that wasn’t a mistaken HCM).
> 
> ...


Observation is the key!


----------



## richgarrison (Nov 16, 2022)

richgarrison said:


> I rotate amongst pylon, abemectin, and azamax. If I’m foggingfor something else I’ll include some soap


I’d also add that Suffoil used to be in my rotation…. And I have no good reason for not including it. ;-)


----------



## Russ1992 (Nov 22, 2022)

NYEric said:


> Don't get me started!


Lol


----------

