# Question about rot



## abax (Sep 18, 2013)

I found two Paphs. today in my greenhouse that looked fine. I touched the
pots for some reason or other and the two plants fell apart. The leaves had rotted at the base of the plants at soil level. When I emptied the pot,
the roots were in good condition. All of the leaves looked healthy with good
color. See if this sounds reasonable: this part of KY has been very wet and
overcast all summer and I think I've been watering when I should have left
the plants alone. What does erwinia look like? The plants weren't close
together and both were one growth plants. I examined all the other plants
very closely and can't find any indications of further damage. Any suggestions, ideas?


----------



## ehanes7612 (Sep 18, 2013)

abax said:


> I found two Paphs. today in my greenhouse that looked fine. I touched the
> pots for some reason or other and the two plants fell apart. The leaves had rotted at the base of the plants at soil level. When I emptied the pot,
> the roots were in good condition. All of the leaves looked healthy with good
> color. See if this sounds reasonable: this part of KY has been very wet and
> ...



first..you will be asked to provide a picture (probably from NY ERIC)

second...all the leaves ?


----------



## Secundino (Sep 18, 2013)

Have you seen a caterpillar or the excrements (round pellets)?
Erwinia can have a characteristic smell, ever had rotting potatoes or carrots? That is one of many Erwinias....


----------



## NYEric (Sep 18, 2013)

Could also be snail/slug damage. The clue to rot/erwinia is that damn sweet, nasty smell. Where's the photo?


----------



## biothanasis (Sep 18, 2013)

It is due to a microorganism (erwinia.. other bacteria... fungi... I do not remmeber).
I had opened a similar thread, back when I had some paphs and used to have the same problem. Plants with healthy leaves and roots, but damaged (mushy and rotten) only at the point where these 2 structures meet (base of the plant).
Unfortunatelly this was the last stage.
Good aeriation and a more cautious watering regime could reduce the problem.
Perhaps there could be some treatment (with chemicals) for prevention, but I have no idea!
Take good care of the other ones you have and inspect them frequently.


----------



## eggshells (Sep 18, 2013)

Smells like over-ripe pineapple. 

http://www.staugorchidsociety.org/culturepests-diseases-erwinia.htm


----------



## Trithor (Sep 18, 2013)

I have found two contributing factors. 
Firstly try to never tug a dead leaf off the plant. I know it looks untidy, but until it has come loose on its own, the action of tugging the dead leaf causes a wound at the plant base which is an entry point for the fungus/bacterium. If the brown leaf is too unsightly, use a small scissors to cut it off near the base. I first soak the blades in a strong bleach solution (don't rinse the chlorine solution off, I find that the chlorine helps sterilize the cut)
Secondly slugs, they seem to feed at the leaf base (if and when they are not eating the bloom) The damage they do is small, almost like they are feeding on algae, but they damage the epithelia and allow pathogens in. I find a definite decrease in rot after a comprehensive slug treatment)
(these are the two factors that I find cause plant base rot, as opposed to crown rot and other maladies)
Without too much questioning, I suspect that chances are high that you 'tugged' a near dead leaf off these two particular plants. I know when it happens to me, that this is the most frequent cause.


----------



## SlipperFan (Sep 18, 2013)

Erwina makes the affected parts brown and mushy, besides the distinct rotting smell.


----------



## Rick (Sep 18, 2013)

My rain and overcast issues aren't much different down here in Nashville Angela, and since cutting back feed rates to roughly 1/20th what I used to feed in the good old days, I'm watering a lot more with better results.

Not noticing a severe basal (or crown) rot to the point that the plant falls apart by mild vibration seems pretty odd to me. But a few days ago I was touring a collection of a grower in Alabama (that's two more highway hours south of me for you out of towners), where I would guess about 1-5% of the slipper collection had some level of erwinia or crown rot. And didn't say anything about it.

I would guess there were at least 300 slippers in this GH, but I would guess at some point for a 90+ year old grower you either don't notice/care, or consider it a normal amount of disease and mortality. There were a lot of really awesome plants as well that she was deservingly proud to show off to me.

I guess after all this rambling I may not have a point except I don't think we can blame the cool wet summer on our disease problems.


----------



## abax (Sep 19, 2013)

I examined the photos of erwinia closely and it wasn't that. No slugs or snails.
Normally, I cut off old leaves with pruners that have been either flamed or
in trisodium phosphate. There was no smell that I could detect and the
base of the leaves was brown, but not mushy. I wasn't blaming the weather: I'm blaming myself for over-watering. I drench with Cleary's
3336 about every two to three months and after repotting, but I've never
had any damage. I may have tugged on a leaf, but I don't remember doing it. I meant literally that both plants just fell apart...all the leaves.
Nice looking leaves and great roots.  Anyway, I drenched the whole bench
of my Paphs. with Cleary's and await further developments

*Eric, I can take a photo of my garbage can if you like. I instantly dumped both plants. One was a delenatii album that I liked very much and had bloomed nicely for me.


----------



## Trithor (Sep 19, 2013)

I am sorry that you have this problem. The worst thing is when you cant quite figure out why. It is difficult to correct a problem if you don't know what it is, very frustrating and I am sure worrying.


----------



## Stone (Sep 19, 2013)

abax said:


> QUOTE] Any suggestions, ideas?



More fans, more fans and then some more fans If its not windy in your g/house there probably not enough air getting moved and its the cause of most of these problems.


----------



## SlipperKing (Sep 19, 2013)

Did both plants come from the same vendor?


----------



## Trithor (Sep 19, 2013)

I can almost hear the incoming artillery shells.



Uploaded with ImageShack.com


----------



## abax (Sep 19, 2013)

I spotted the problem this afternoon. Condensation from the ceiling of
my greenhouse was dripping on those two plants right into the crown...
bullseye! The situation has been corrected and no other plants affected.

Air movement suggestion: I have two 24" louvers and a 32" exhaust fan,
two 52" ceiling fans and one small 10" fan blowing just over the tops of
the Paphs. It's windy in there and very humid. I can't think of anything
to add and keep the pots upright. ;>) The 10" and the two ceiling fans are
on 24/7.

Oh, my feeding schedule is 1/4 tsp. K-Lite every ten days or so and a
good flushing twice a month. I add kelp to the K-lite once a month.



*not from the same [email protected]


----------



## Rick (Sep 19, 2013)

condensation from surfaces like that could be bad.

I don't know if you remember legionairs disease, but that was a bacteria growing in airconditioner condensate.

In our tox lab, the most obnoxious bacteria are growing in the most impoverished systems like cooling towers and chem based treatment systems. Biological treatment systems with diverse bacteria and fungal communities seem to have very low numbers of pathogenic species in them. In some cases we have taken pathogenic bacteria and fungus cultures from cooling towers and "fed" them to activated sludge systems to neutralize the pathogenicity.

Sometimes "sterility" can cause big problems.


----------



## ALToronto (Sep 19, 2013)

Maybe the Cleary's should be sprayed overhead. 

What about plain powdered sulfur? I'm apprehensive about using a water based solution to treat a water-caused problem. Does it work as well as commercial fungicides?


----------



## abax (Sep 19, 2013)

Rick, do you think an additional drench with aspirin might be needed? I clean the walls of my greenhouse a couple of times a year with Physan and
thought that would be enough to keep down the fungi/bacteria population.
Also the use of Cleary's as a drench seems to work well for most things of
that nature. Can you suggest any other measures I can do to prevent
these little sneaky things?

I'm interested in AL's question too. Since Cleary's is a systemic, I can't imagine what
good it might do on the gh ceiling. I'm not familiar with powdered sulfur.


----------



## SlipperKing (Sep 20, 2013)

I would hope this rot issue is just a "one off" Angila for you and not happen again. My GH drips all winter long on the plants and don't recall any rot issues from ceiling bugs. As a fact, my best effort growing and finally blooming a Mexipedi was the direct result of ceiling drips in the pot and kept it wet all winter! I would just avoid having a pot under that spot, do your cleaning otherwise and not worry anymore.


----------



## NYEric (Sep 20, 2013)

Crown rot sucks but I believe it can be treated with lime powder and/or Dragon's Blood, if caught in time.


----------



## Rick (Sep 20, 2013)

I'm with Rick H on this Angela

Focus on making your plants tougher rather than beating the environment into a false sense of sterility (which is always a loosing proposition in my book).

I think the regular asprin application is helpful and keep reducing nutrient application.

The plants are only using a tiny fraction of what we have typically applied and the rest is feeding bugs (some good:clap: and some bad:evil.

I would think we ultimately want the plants to be the driver of our environment and not the pests.


----------



## Trithor (Sep 21, 2013)

That sounds like good advice


----------



## abax (Sep 22, 2013)

I use the Physan on the ceiling and walls of my gh to clean algae off. There
ain't no sterility in my environment anywhere!


----------



## Rick (Sep 22, 2013)

If I hadn't cleaned the algae off the walls and ceiling of my GH (with bleach) I would have my light reduced a lot, so we do what we need to do.

I wouldn't start washing everything down again at this point. But could just be me being lazy


----------



## abax (Sep 22, 2013)

I usually wait until late October to clean algae off...unless I fall in the
meantime. Falling on an algae covered, wet concrete floor will get one's
butt in motion really quickly!


----------

