# Can I apply Physan 27 and a Safer Soap together?



## Scooby5757 (Apr 25, 2008)

So I grow under lights and I have some spider mites that I wanna zap and as the weather warms I want to do a preventative application of Physan cause this is when I get my occasional rot pop up. Can I apply both at the same time. I really dont have a phytotoxicity issue with the HPS.

Thanks!


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## Hien (Apr 25, 2008)

Do you mean Phyton 27 (not physan 27) ?
-Phyton 27 kills many of my dendrobium nobiles
-Safer soap actually kills many of the best & rarest parvie hybrids that I bought last year from GNYOS. The leaves turn brown very fast.
Using both of them together maybe too much for the paphs to handle.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Apr 25, 2008)

I would stay away from safer's soap. Aside from being ineffective, except for aphids, soap solutions by Safer are also marketed as herbicides...its a fine line between insecticide and herbicide with this stuff...and many plants are sensitive to it. Take care, Eric


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## Scooby5757 (Apr 26, 2008)

OK, so what do i use for the spider mites. These things are such a b***h. I spray, they die down, then Ill go in after the mister has been on and you can see the strands with minute water droplets on them. And now Im getting those coppery marks on leaves from where they have been having fun. 

I want unblemished leaves, or at least I want to be the cause.


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## Candace (Apr 26, 2008)

There are miticides on the market that are pretty pricey but work great. Maverick Aquaflow is one. I bought it years ago for use in the g.h. and haven't had to use it. I only get mites on indoor plants-usually phals that get too dry. I've had good success using water to wash them off and spraying with the Safer Soap. But, I've never used Safer on paphs, just catts and phals inside. 

If you've got mites it's a symtom of too low humidity. If you can increase the humidity, you'll have less problems with them.


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## Scooby5757 (Apr 26, 2008)

Candace said:


> If you've got mites it's a symtom of too low humidity. If you can increase the humidity, you'll have less problems with them.



I know low humidity is something that can help mites, but there is NO WAY i have low humidity. It is consistantly above 65%. It's an enclosed area with a water flow table for phrags, a mister, and 200+ plants. I have a gauge in there, three actually, and they all are almost always a few degrees or percent difference of each other.


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## Candace (Apr 26, 2008)

Yeah with that humidity you must have bought a plant with a mite problem. I just got one in Feb. that had them:<


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## Roth (Apr 26, 2008)

Candace said:


> Yeah with that humidity you must have bought a plant with a mite problem. I just got one in Feb. that had them:<



I got a mite problem 3 years ago, when still in France, and a friend got that one as well. Brevipalpus mite, and they like high humidity. There is an epidemic of that mite genus, and it is very hard to kill. My best treatment at that time ( and I tried quite a few) was clofentezine + bromopropylate. Be warned though that mites can be made insensitive to nearly all miticides with a single application of imidacloprid... Avermectin was totally ineffective as an example.

There are some wild species of mites as well on paphs from Indonesia/Malaysia, pretty hard to kill as well. But for sure I would never use Safers or that kind of product, they are not effective enough and anything that is nonsystemic is at risk of clogging leaf stomatas or stick to the leaves for too long time... I should make a table of the phytos I have been used and my records of phytotoxicity/efficiency one day...


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## Candace (Apr 26, 2008)

> Brevipalpus mite, and they like high humidity.



I've heard about this mite. Luckily, I've seemed to only have had the ones that can't stand water. Maybe Scooby is battling this type... I've also heard that Merit(imidacloprid) acts as an aphrodisiac for them;> Although I'm a big Merit fan for mealy and scale, I wouldn't use it if I had mites in the g.h.


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## Yoyo_Jo (Apr 26, 2008)

Sanderianum said:


> ...I should make a table of the phytos I have been used and my records of phytotoxicity/efficiency one day...




Yes, that would be most useful! And thanks for the tip regarding Safers. I used it once on a Paph. micranthum x gardineri but it seems to be I had second thoughts and rinsed it off the leaves. Plant looks fine today.

Joanne


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## Roth (Apr 26, 2008)

Candace said:


> I've heard about this mite. Luckily, I've seemed to only have had the ones that can't stand water. Maybe Scooby is battling this type... I've also heard that Merit(imidacloprid) acts as an aphrodisiac for them;> Although I'm a big Merit fan for mealy and scale, I wouldn't use it if I had mites in the g.h.




There are 2 groups of studies about imidacloprid, one shows clearly that it is aphrodisiac ( have to be careful with greenhouse owners maybe :evil , and another group shows clearly enhanced longevity of the mites. I found out that imidacloprid made the mites insensitive to many, many classes of miticides. I treated quite a few plants with miticides because of the outbreak of brevipalpus caused by imidacloprid, and only bromopropylate and clofentezine tank mixed were effective. All the remaining, dicofol, dienochlor, avermectin, etc... ( I tried many, trust me !), were totally ineffective, with a nearly 0% mites death. Under the binocular lens, the leaves did not have a single dead mite! ( well maybe 1-2 because they were too old).


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## Heather (Apr 26, 2008)

I would be wary of using either. Short and sweet!


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## Roth (Apr 26, 2008)

Heather said:


> I would be wary of using either. Short and sweet!



I think the same... For the copper products, I will make one day a long post to explain how to avoid phytotoxicity, but to make it short, the product must be applied at a strong enough concentration so thatthe pH will not swing at the first fertilizer application or otherwise. Trying to use low concentrations of coppoer compounds invariably led to massive problems, because the copper ion is in the solution, but the buffering capacity of a mild dilution can be quickly overcome by a fertilizer at pH 6.5 or otherwise. I know people who use Kocide full strenght without any problems ( though I would most likely use a copper fungicide with a homemade buffer solution, strong one, to keep the pH over 7.3...).


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Apr 26, 2008)

There used to be a combo insecticide on the markey, with Pentac (I think that's a miticide)...or was it Kelthane...regardless, it was a combination of stuff...very good, but I never see it anymore. However, I didn't use it for mites, at least on orchids. Funny....I've dealt with every imaginable orchid disease and pest, but never mites....on the other hand, the mites used to (and occasionally still) do go for my cactus big time.....Take care, Eric


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## Scooby5757 (Apr 27, 2008)

Im at my wits end. They never die. It's like some horrible orchid STD.

Did Paph. huonglanae "Village People" stop by and leave a "gift" with my plants? It's like the herpes of orchids.


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## Candace (Apr 27, 2008)

You crack me up.


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## likespaphs (Apr 27, 2008)

if you haven't applied anything other than safer or a strong water spray, look into predatory mites...


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## NYEric (Apr 27, 2008)

Or ladybugs, available by the pint from garden supply mail order. BTW if you wash w/ Physan and Safer soap together you may get a rash in your privates! oke:


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## likespaphs (Apr 27, 2008)

ladybugs typically won't go after mites as they're too small. there are some predators specifically for various types of mites...

(click here for some mite info from GreenMethods.com)


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## Heather (Apr 27, 2008)

I hate Safer. (and Eric disturbs me....)


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## mgt56 (Apr 27, 2008)

My 2 cents.... I would try blasting them off with water. Awhile back I thought I aquired a plant that was infested with mites so every day for two weeks I use my kitchen sink sprayer, and bombared the plant with water and I have not seen any pock marks on the newer leaves.


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## Heather (Apr 27, 2008)

mgt56 said:


> Awhile back I thought I aquired a plant that was infested with water...



I think he means mites...


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## Scooby5757 (Apr 27, 2008)

I can't tell you what an ordeal it would be to take all the plants out individually and wash them off. That preditory mite thing sounds interesting. I really want something that's a hardcore killer of the mites and any other pests I dont see. Start this years growing cycle off right.


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## Scooby5757 (Apr 27, 2008)

Ok so I rea this on that www.greenmethods.com..." Please note, however, if you see tiny, individual silken strands randomly strung from one plant to another any distance greater than one inch, you’re probably not seeing spider mite webbing. Instead, especially if seen in a structure where chemicals are not used, you’ll have spiders working in your facility. You, therefore, will have no reason for alarm." 

The strands are longer that one inch, much longer in some cases. This is good and bad. Good that I might not have have spider mites. (yay) Bad that I've got something and I don't have a clue what it is. Im gonna take pics of what Im seeing on these plants an post. 

Im sure its some horrible virus that can't be cured and Ill have to toss all the plants in the oven.


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## smartie2000 (Apr 27, 2008)

I have a phal bellina and phal bellina x amboinense that is constantly infested with mites (or the symptoms I can't see mites). I can't grow any new leaves on the either, they keep dying...probably attacked too (I can't believe I can't grow a phal)

Luckily no paphs have been attacked by mites

I bought the 75% merit powder and have used it (expensive stuff!). Also used Pyrithrins (I tried to stay away from it, I did an experiment on _Brassica_ and it dwarfs the plants). My mealy bug infestation is nearly gone. I'm waiting to get a third type of pesticide once garden centers load up for spring and wipe out that mealy bug population completely.


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## mgt56 (Apr 27, 2008)

Heather - yes I mean mites. 

scooby5757- I could see how it would be a pain to spray down a large number of plants. I was lucky to catche the problem before the plant was placed with my other plants.


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## myxodex (Apr 27, 2008)

Just a note for those that might be unaware ... Physan 20 at least is a quarterniary ammonium ion, as are some other disinfectants (don't know about phyton), however these agents are neutralised by normal detergents (negatively charged) ... again don't know about safer soap ... if it is a soap type detergent then don't use with quarts.
Tim


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## NYEric (Apr 28, 2008)

Heather said:


> (and Eric disturbs me....)



As in hot and bothered!?:evil:


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