# Venustum or Venus Rising?



## TrevorNW (Jun 30, 2014)

Hello everyone. I've been following this great forum for a while, but this is my first post. I'm a windowsill grower in north Wales, UK, and have been building up my limited collection recently. P venustum was one of the first sp I grew (at the tender age of 12!) and wanted to grow it again so purchased a plant from a vendor on ebay. This plant has now flowered:


















Now, it's a superb little thing and I'm really happy with it, but I don't think it's pure venustum. What do you think? By chance, another UK vendor was selling plants of Venus Rising at the same time. I've also bought one of these - it's not flowered yet but internet photos of it look identical to this one.


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## NYEric (Jun 30, 2014)

Welcome to the forum from NYC. I don't know which it is but one of the species growers on the forum should be able to help.


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## eggshells (Jun 30, 2014)

Congrats with your Paph. venustum. Nice pouch!


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## Trithor (Jun 30, 2014)

Venus Rising is a Makuli hybrid, (involving venustum in a small portion) I see no reason to doubt that this is venustum. I would be happy to consider it a venustum, and a good one at that!


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## PaphMadMan (Jun 30, 2014)

Not Venus Rising. That glimpse of foliage and the little turned back upper edge of the petals is right for venustum, and would be unlikely in Venus Rising no matter how much the flower has a general resemblance. 

Overall, I would accept it as venustum. The only thing that might make me question it is that venustum's pouch sometimes is more bulbous and usually has more prominent veins. There is always a chance of some other hybrid, but it would have to be something with venustum on both sides of the family tree.


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## SlipperFan (Jun 30, 2014)

The staminode shield looks like a venustum, but the pouch looks like a hybrid.


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## abax (Jul 1, 2014)

I'd accept it as a good venustum. The petals aren't reflexed and the color
is very nice. It's a better one than I have...wanna trade?

Welcome to ST from KY.


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## Ozpaph (Jul 1, 2014)

Id accept it as venustum.


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## TrevorNW (Jul 1, 2014)

Thank you so much for your replies. It was the pouch that worried me really - I was expecting something more bulbous, green and with more prominent veins. The second bud has also opened now, something I also didn't think was a venustum character:






I'm thrilled you all concur it's venustum as I love it. Looks like selection & breeding in this species has developed it a bit since I last grew it 33 years ago!

BTW - I don't grow all my Paphs in gold-coloured pots, that's just to keep the better half happy!


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## John M (Jul 1, 2014)

Welcome to SlipperTalk, Trevor!

Sorry; but, I'm going to rain on your parade. I have followed this thread with interest and surprise at some of the comments. I believe that the provinence of this flower is HIGHLY suspect and I would never consider it to be pure venustum. The veining on the pouch is the most distinctive feature of venustum. There are other species with striped dorsals, raspberry/red coloured petal tips and petal spots; but, the veining (to the degree that it is found on venustum), is unique to only venustum. This flower lacks the most notable defining element of venustum....that crazy veining, reminding one of brains. I believe it is a hybrid; probably Paph. Christmas Cheer (venustum x argus). Or, it could even be Christmas Cheer crossed back onto venustum. Not only is the veining lacking; but, there is a very un-venustum-like overlay of chocolate brown on the pouch. So, to me, it's not only a case of pale coloured veins; but, also the addition of another non-venustum trait added to the mix.

Also, the fact that you are located in the U.K. tells me that this plant probably came from a nursery in Europe. There are a number of BIG nurseries that produce pot plant Paphs there. Many of them just don't care about accurate naming. They source nice plants that are suitable for the trade; to be sold in grocery stores and florist shops and they propagate them by the thousands and thousands. They often use plants that are not named; or, they add their own name. They've done this with yellow primulinum. The primulinum coming out of Europe and saturating the world market are spectacular plants with huge, wonderful flowers. They are great house plants. But, they've been produced by crossing true primulinum with alba forms of other Cochlopetalums. Because the offspring looked like prinulinum on steroids, they just called them primulinum and sold them with that name. Nowadays, it's really hard to find a true, purebred yellow primulinum. 

Seeing the pouch on your flower and assuming that it came from a Euorpean nursery, makes me almost completely certain that it is not pure venustum. European producers grow and sell some awesome plants; but, you just can't trust the names. The mentality of many Dutch growers in particular is that the true name does not matter. In fact, it's seen as a business advantage to put their own company names on the plants that they sell because then they are promoting a "line" of products that appears to be unique to them. Or, they like to call a hybrid that looks a lot like a species by that species name. It's easier to grow, maturing more quickly, which is an advantage for them and most of the public who buy them won't know the difference between what they've got and the true-blooded species. 

Years ago, the Dutch producers flooded the world market with Phal. leucorhoda hybrids. The problem was that leucorhoda is a hybrid, not a species. So, it should be spelled with a capital "L". Also, what they called leucorhoda was in actual fact, Phal. philippinensis! It created a huge lot of messy confusion in the orchid world to have all these phals out in the trade with the wrong name on them. Judges and awarding bodies like the RHS and AOS, etc., had a hell of a time sorting out what was bogus and what was correct.

Growing nursery plants is big business in some parts of the world. For companies that are more interested in the bottom line, rather than being taxonomically correct; or even horticulturally correct, messing with the names is not an issue.....and they do it all the time.


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## Trithor (Jul 1, 2014)

I think everyone has reservations based on the pouch, but it is difficult to come up with another cross that is available which would generate the same result. Whatever the alternative is, it is strongly venustum, not just a simple primary like argus x venustum. The question is, is anyone selling a possible hybrid commercially?


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## John M (Jul 1, 2014)

Trithor said:


> I think everyone has reservations based on the pouch, but it is difficult to come up with another cross that is available which would generate the same result.


 That's the problem with trying to identify complex hybrids. Once you get past considering primaries, the job becomes a WHOLE lot more difficult, and more often than not, it is impossible. 



Trithor said:


> Whatever the alternative is, it is strongly venustum, not just a simple primary like argus x venustum. *Agreed. But, it's always easier to say what a plant is not, rather than what it is. I think that this is not pure venustum; but, I can't say without reservation what it actually is. If it were mine, I'd put a question mark beside the venustum name and just enjoy it, as it is; but, I'd never use it in breeding.*


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## SlipperKing (Jul 2, 2014)

To me this plant screams hybrid. I've had a number of venustum hybrids over the years and all looked like well taylored venustums. In the 90's OZ made a number of Maudiae type/ venustum hybrids. As I said, they looked like a well taylored venustum but larger flowers. Do so measurements and get back to us. You'll probably find out the sizes are out of range even for the best venustums.
Selective line breeding would capitallize on the fantastic veining of the pouch as well as other features not mute them out as in this pouch.


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## Trithor (Jul 2, 2014)

Too true, that is why I commented that it would be interesting to see how it breeds (not that anyone will wait around for the results) I was not aware that much 'Maudiae' breeding had been done with venustum, but that certainly looks like the lineage.


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## John M (Jul 2, 2014)

Yes, the pouch screams "I'm not venustum". The trouble with there being Maudiae in the backgrownd, or just callosum, or just lawrenceanum, is that I'd expect to see a much larger dorsal in this flower. However, if Makuli is a parent, then, sukhakulii will bring down the dorsal size quite a bit. 

I've done some more investigation. 

Here's a Venus Rising from the Internet: http://http://hybridorchid.la.coocan.jp/Paphiopedilum/Paphiopedilum%20Venus%20Rising/DSC08793.JPG

It looks a LOT like the flower in this thread!

Venus Rising is: Makuli x Venus Hold. 

Makuli is:
sukhakulii x (callosum x lawrenceanum) 

Venus Hold is:
venustum x (callosum x (callosum x lawrenceanum))

Both Sukhakulii and venustum will bring down the dorsal size a lot. Also, whenever you use vensutum in hybridizing, the pouch veins are NEVER carried over anywhere nearly as intensely. However, the rest of the vensutum characteristics, petal spots, dorsal shape, size and stripes, pink petal tips; are carried over. Whenever you use callosum, or lawrenceanum, or their hybrid, Maudiae, the chocolate brown pouch colour IS carried over very well. 

I'm changing my mind. I don't think there's something like argus in this. I do think that it is Venus Rising, or a hybrid with Venus Rising. Whatever it is, which we cannot say for sure, IMO, it is not pure venustum.


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## NYEric (Jul 2, 2014)

NYEric said:


> Welcome to the forum from NYC. I don't know which it is but one of the species growers on the forum should be able to help.



Best answer yet!


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## TrevorNW (Jul 2, 2014)

Thank you all so much; it's a fascinating discussion and your contributions and detail is much appreciated, especially about the characteristic venustum lip not being carried over into hybrids. That would explain a lot!

As mentioned initially, another ebay vendor had Venus Rising for sale around the same time. It was illustrated with the photo in the link John M has posted. I brought it before buying the "venustum" pictured here and, although it's a while away from flowering at the moment, it will provide a good comparison when it does. By the way, the foliage of both plants is identical. I now suspect both vendors actually got their plants from the same source, it's just that one called them "venustum" and the other one Venus Rising. So it might turn out that I have two plants of this, whatever it is!

The flowers are big - 11cm across and 9cm tall. 

I'll contact the vendor and enquire about the source, just to clear up where it comes from. He actually has a large range of very 'specialist' orchids available, including many multifloral paphs, cattleyas, masdevallias and other interesting species, not the sort of things you'd get in a supermarket, garage or garden centre.

Whatever it turns out to be, I like it a lot. But I must admit to being a tad disappointed; I find the species have a charm and elegance missing in many hybrids. And, of course, I've been sold something that's not what it was advertised as, a bit like getting a Ford when you've ordered a Ferrari (ok, not quite!).


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## PaphMadMan (Jul 2, 2014)

Those measurements are within the upper size range for awarded venustum, big but certainly not impossible unless a third of awarded venustum are misidentified. 

I'm not arguing that it is venustum, but I think a lot has been said based on a single flower. We don't even know if this is a typical flower for this plant. The pouch doesn't fit the common mental image of vensutum, but the leaves, staminode, petals and dorsal are all pretty typical. It is likely that cultivated plants have been selected for veins since the species is distinctive for that. That doesn't necessarily mean that every plant will look like that. 

That fact is that we can never really be certain that any multi-generation cultivated plant is really what the tag says it is, and all those plants have been selected for characteristics that are not typical of the species.


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## Trithor (Jul 3, 2014)

I agree with all the above, JohnM, your point is well argued and backed.


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## Stone (Jul 3, 2014)

The leaves are pure venustum. If it were a hybrid, I doubt the leaves would hold that venustum pattern. But it may have something else in it from several generations ago.


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## John M (Jul 3, 2014)

Stone said:


> The leaves are pure venustum. If it were a hybrid, I doubt the leaves would hold that venustum pattern. But it may have something else in it from several generations ago.



I agree. The leaves, what we can see of them, do look very "venustum". So, this adds to the mystery even more. If this is pure venustum, it's an example of a VERY extreme variety with very little of the veining that makes venustum stand out among species. .....And without the veining, why bother with it? There are plenty of other species with similar colours, shapes and spot patterns; but, only (normal), vensutums have that spectacular veining pattern on the lip.


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## Stone (Jul 3, 2014)

John M said:


> I agree. The leaves, what we can see of them, do look very "venustum". So, this adds to the mystery even more. If this is pure venustum, it's an example of a VERY extreme variety with very little of the veining that makes venustum stand out among species. .....And without the veining, why bother with it? There are plenty of other species with similar colours, shapes and spot patterns; but, only (normal), vensutums have that spectacular veining pattern on the lip.



Agreed. And nice to see you spelling ''colour'' the correct way.


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## TrevorNW (Jul 4, 2014)

In case it helps (or maybe not!), here are some better pics of the foliage











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## labskaus (Jul 4, 2014)

The leaves on your plant have a purple base and just a light flush of purple underneath, whereas venustum should have dense fine spotting on the whole lower surface of the leaves. Doesn't look right for venustum, to me.


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## emydura (Jul 4, 2014)

labskaus said:


> The leaves on your plant have a purple base and just a light flush of purple underneath, whereas venustum should have dense fine spotting on the whole lower surface of the leaves. Doesn't look right for venustum, to me.



Absolutely agree. The flower looked suspicious to me and now the foliage proves conclusively that it is not a 100% venustum. The underneath of leaves look nothing like venustum. In fact even the top of the leaves don't look fully like a venustum. The leaves of venustum has more of a velvety look about it.


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## Ozpaph (Jul 4, 2014)

That foliage doesn't look pure venustum, close up - the sheen and markings are not 'right'.


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## PaphMadMan (Jul 4, 2014)

I agree the foliage is off for venustum now that we have a clear view.


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## John M (Jul 4, 2014)

I agree too. Thanks for the clearer photo of the foliage. It's not a pure venustum.

I suspect that your suspicions are correct....that the two different vendors you bought from have acquired these plants from the same nursery and one of them decided to change the name and let a very venustum-looking hybrid masquerade as the pure species. This would allow him to charge a premium price. A pure venustum would fetch much more than a pot-plant hybrid. The world is FULL of dishonest people. Buyer beware!


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## Stone (Jul 4, 2014)

Yep now that I see the leaves well, I agree it's a hybrid


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## TrevorNW (Jul 5, 2014)

Well, the vendor in question has put another "venustum" up for sale with very familar leaves. The photos of flowers are the same used with the plant I bought. 
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161353492398 


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## John M (Jul 5, 2014)

That's Ryan Burton!!!! He's a dirty thief!!! Don't ever deal with him! Tell everybody you know to never deal with him! He stole my photo of my Paph. hangianum last June 2013 and used it in his eBay auctions. I told him to take it down. He ignored me. I sent him an invoice for the commercial use of my copyrighted property. He ignored me and kept using my photo. This person has no ethics. Now that I know the vendor you got your so-called venustum from is this a$$hole, I am certain that your plant was deliberately mislabelled. He's only interested in telling lies to make money. You should demand a refund. The venustum flowers in his current eBay auction do look like pure venustum; but, since he's shipping plants like the one you got, he's obviously deliberately being dishonest. He's employing "Bait and switch" to get people like you to order plants and send him your good money. Then, he's sending you something else. I only hope that he rips off the wrong person who happens to live close enough that they can go to his house and deal with him in person! What a scumbag!


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## Ozpaph (Jul 7, 2014)

Tell us what you really think!
He doesn't sound like a nice person at all. The best way to deal with this is negative feedback on EBay. People will read it and be more cautious.


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## John M (Jul 7, 2014)

How do I post negative feedback? Do I have to be an eBay member? I hate eBay. They are as bad as the crooks that steal photos because they make themselves very scarce if you have a complaint and they won't do anything about the theft of photos. After all, when someone sells a plant by using a stolen photo, eBay benefits too; so, why would they listen to me?

Yeah, I know my previous post is a bit over the top; but, I was really, really furious with both Burton AND eBay at the time because I could not get ANY reaction or response from either one of them.


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## Ozpaph (Jul 7, 2014)

try 'customer support' > 'report an item'. You will need to know the item number where your photo was used illegally and/or a purposely mislablled plant.
Its best if the purchaser contacts the seller for a response, then posts negative feedback if they are dissatisfied.


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## John M (Jul 7, 2014)

Thanks. If it happens again, I'll try again to complain.

BTW: HEY DOT!!! This creep is using your photo of your awarded Paph. Vipanii right now! Your ST thread: http://http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17821&highlight=vipanii

....And his current auction, using YOUR photo:
http://http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Slipper-Orchid-Paphiopedilum-Vipanii-Bloom-Size-/151343256246?pt=UK_HomeGarden_Garden_PlantsSeedsBulbs_JN&hash=item233cc2d2b6#ht_0wt_0


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## SlipperFan (Jul 7, 2014)

Thanks, John -- I'll contact eBay.


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## John M (Jul 7, 2014)

He's also using an award photo of Cattleya Pittiae 'JFS' HCC/AOS, taken at the Chicago AOS judging centre. This guy is seriously dishonest!


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## John M (Jul 7, 2014)

....And! He's currently using MY photo of my Paph. Liberty Taiwan!


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## John M (Jul 7, 2014)

As I said, I HATE ebay! Ozpaph, I tried "customer support" and then "report an item"; but, I had to register and join ebay to be allowed to report the theft. But now that I'm a member, I can't get their links to open the pages I need to report anything. I've spent ages, just like the last time I tried to get ebay's help with this crook Burton, and nothing works. I'm so fed up. Why should I have to join and jump through all their fire-burnig hoops just to report that one of THEIR members has stolen MY property? If they REALLY gave a damn, they'd make reporting infractions a LOT easier! God! I HATE ebay!

Why can't there be a simple link or a 1-800 number for people to call and register complaints? I think the reason is because ebay really doesn't want to hear about photo thefts because if they mess up seller's listings by forcing the removal of photos, they lose income too because then less stuff gets sold. That makes them just as dishonest and crooked as the sellers who steal photos. Did I mention that I HATE ebay?


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## Ozpaph (Jul 8, 2014)

If you open the eBay listing and click on 'report item' (right side of page in blue writing) then you can complain (yes, you must be a member).
John, perhaps for your own mental health you shouldn't shop on eBay?


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## John M (Jul 8, 2014)

Ozpaph said:


> If you open the eBay listing and click on 'report item' (right side of page in blue writing) then you can complain (yes, you must be a member). *That doesn't work from my end. I have no idea why.*
> John, perhaps for your own mental health you shouldn't shop on eBay?*Never have; never will!*


..


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## reivilos (Jul 8, 2014)

That guy and his friend "margaretmouse" are real a$$es. Almost all that he/she sells is fake (one can tell from the look of the plants). Pictures are usually stolen, except for one shot before the white door.
I bought one plant that turned out the real thing, but the others didn't. He/she regularly starts ebay complaints if you don't pay fast enough. I even told he/she to go <you know what> him/herself once.
Considering the fancy hybrids offer, I believe this person must hang around ST.


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## TrevorNW (Jul 8, 2014)

Well, not knowing all this until now, quite a few of my Paphs have come from this guy. To be honest, they are all good quality, healthy and vigorous plants, it's just that I don't know what they will turn out to be. I'll keep you posted (I have a Henrietta Fujiwara in bud from him). My most suspect plant is a Robinianum, with leaves that don't look quite right (they're quite different to another plant of this I have from a reputable nursery). At the end of the day, we have a Trades Description Act - if he has mis-sold me anything a prosecution is possible. 

Unfortunately, we have very few dealers or nurseries here in Britain and ebay often offers the best selection of plants. I now know they appear to be too good to be true!


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## SlipperFan (Jul 8, 2014)

Ozpaph said:


> If you open the eBay listing and click on 'report item' (right side of page in blue writing) then you can complain (yes, you must be a member).
> John, perhaps for your own mental health you shouldn't shop on eBay?



And now I am getting the run-around from ebay because the original email address I used when I first registered with them no longer exists. But they want me to email them from that address!!

Can you believe it?


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## Ozpaph (Jul 8, 2014)

no one said being right was easy................


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## John M (Jul 9, 2014)

Yes, Dot. I believe it!

I also believe (and hope!), that in time, eBay will get what's coming to it. The Internet is still a "toddler", despite how much it already intrudes into so many people's lives one way or the other nowadays. Just like the smokers and health insurance companies who finally went after the big tobaco companies for lying, I believe that eventually eBay will be hit hard by regulators for willfully enabling crooks like Burton and benefiting finanically from his (and others like him), crimes, while making it nearly impossible for people like you and me to get any satisfaction and justice, with their help. I'm going to contact the Attorney General of Ontario and find out how I go about filing a theft complaint with this jerk's local police. Maybe having the police at his door investigating Internet crimes will wake him up? It all depends on how seriously the UK takes these sort of crimes. Wouldn't it be great if they confiscated his computer(s)? How'd he be able to continue to rip off people all over the world, not to mention his EU customers who buy his mislabelled, misrepresented plants. Even if he ships the right species, in cases like when he steals my hangianum photo and now my Liberty Taiwan photo, he's lying to his customers because he does NOT have access to those plants in the photos. Those are not representative of the quality that he is selling. My hangianum and Liberty Taiwan, are, as far as I've seen, the best of the best quality anywhere; but, he's implying to his customers that when they buy his plants, they'll get the quality that they see in my photos. Not likely!


Yup. It's official. eBay sucks!


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## SlipperFan (Jul 9, 2014)

Love that idea, John.

I've communicated with 3 different people at ebay, all with the same department. I swear they do not talk to each other. After filling out forms and sending them per their request, we'll see what happens to my photo.


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## Fabrice (Oct 31, 2014)

I didn't see this thread.

About the ebay seller, necessary to forget this kind of joker...

About the flower, clearly not venustum. Could be Symondsiae (venustum x purpuratum) The staminode is near purpuratum.


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## abax (Nov 1, 2014)

Good for you Dot and John M. Get him! I've been tricked a couple of
times and didn't even know it until SlipperKing pointed out the differences
between what I thought I was buying and what I actually got.

John dear, you are a wonder when you get riled! WOOHOO!


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## Alex (Nov 1, 2014)

This is a well-worn Ebay trick - sell a plant that looks similar to the advertised, and only can be identified clearly as wrong when it flowers months or years later. By then, positive feedback will have been secured and the 90 day complaints window will probably have closed, leaving you with no recourse to these thieving sh*tbags at all.

I have never bought from margaretmouse/falconer/Ryan Burton, and have seen enough discussion online to know never to do so. We do not have top level Paphiopedilum vendors in the UK, but it is easy to order from Europe where people like the absolutely excellent Asendorfer Orchideen trade, so we do have some options. However, I did get screwed by an unrelated thieving turd last year for a rare Cypripedium which turned out to be rubbish, and I'm still angry. The seller was baerbelde, who is still advertising occasional rarities on the US Ebay site. As per John M on Ryan Burton, I really hope he rips off the wrong person soon :viking:.


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## myxodex (Nov 5, 2014)

@John, @ Dot, good luck with this, I suspect you are going to need a lot of patience and persistence. I live in the UK and I'm grateful for the info on this vendor, so thanks to all involved in this exposure.


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## Ryan Young (Nov 5, 2014)

Another indicator it's probably a hybrid that it has 2 flowers per inflorescence, that's fairly uncommon with venustum. Checking the awarded list only 1 CCM plant had more than 1 flower per inflorescence, out of 71 awarded plants. 

Sent from my oneplus one


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