# Paphiopedilum bullenianum bud



## DrLeslieEe (Feb 8, 2021)

I'm so excited to see this open!

Took 2 years to establish after a harrowing trip back from Japan. From a select plant of Hanajima Orchids with scarlet red petals. 

Anytime soon...


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## musa (Feb 9, 2021)

Looking forward to see it!
How much light does it need? I got a seedling one and a half years ago. Since I moved it to a darker spot I think it is developping an elongated growth...


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## DrLeslieEe (Feb 9, 2021)

It's been getting 1200-1500 fc, next to callosum and lawrenceanum hyeanum.


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## DrLeslieEe (Feb 10, 2021)

Slowly.. she's unfolding.


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## Don I (Feb 10, 2021)

Neat.
Don


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## GuRu (Feb 10, 2021)

Leslie, that's another lovely bloom within your green jungel.


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## DrLeslieEe (Feb 11, 2021)

A little more love!






Another couple days more to full maturation.


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## Guldal (Feb 11, 2021)

Gorgeous, Leslie! Such striking colours - esp. in the first photo of the last three, with that almost purple hue!


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## Paphman910 (Feb 11, 2021)

Really nice!


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## Ozpaph (Feb 12, 2021)

please show it in natural light.


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## Martin (Feb 12, 2021)

Nice one! Whats the difference to appletonianum?


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## GuRu (Feb 12, 2021)

Martin said:


> .......Whats the difference to appletonianum?



Among other differences, their origins are completely differnt. Have a look here Paph appletonianum and Paph. bulleanum


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## Martin (Feb 12, 2021)

GuRu said:


> Among other differences, their origins are completely differnt. Have a look here Paph appletonianum and Paph. bulleanum


Thank you! So Leslies plant look a lot like appletonianum to me


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## dodidoki (Feb 12, 2021)

GuRu said:


> Among other differences, their origins are completely differnt. Have a look here Paph appletonianum and Paph. bulleanum


I can t see differences.Geographical difference is not a reason to mention them as separate sp.Eg. cyp. calceolus can be found in many places in the nature all around the world.


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## dodidoki (Feb 12, 2021)

Very nice, anyway.


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## GuRu (Feb 12, 2021)

dodidoki said:


> I can t see differences.Geographical difference is not a reason to mention them as separate sp.Eg. cyp. calceolus can be found in many places in the nature all around the world.



Istvan, I wrote 'among other fifferences' and not 'the only difference is' !! Read the describtions in the links carefully and you will find at least 3 differences which are necessary to create a new species.


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## dodidoki (Feb 12, 2021)

GuRu said:


> Istvan, I wrote 'among other fifferences' and not 'the only difference is' !! Read the describtions in the links carefully and you will find at least 3 differences which are necessary to create a new species.


Thanks, i will look after.My eyes could see the same till this time.


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## DrLeslieEe (Feb 12, 2021)

Ozpaph said:


> please show it in natural light.


I will take one when sunny inside. It's minus 12C outside lol.


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## DrLeslieEe (Feb 12, 2021)

Martin said:


> Nice one! Whats the difference to appletonianum?


The lineage are plants from Borneo. The Japanese do not make mistakes... usually lol... esp if they consider it valuable. 

But I will do my research as I'm curious about the differentiation of the appletonianum complex.


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## DrLeslieEe (Feb 12, 2021)

GuRu said:


> Among other differences, their origins are completely differnt. Have a look here Paph appletonianum and Paph. bulleanum


Here's an appletonianum from a friend to compare:




Differences in staminodes, roundness of pouch bottom and petal/dorsal angles, from my observations. 

I will look further into literature.


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## Martin (Feb 12, 2021)

DrLeslieEe said:


> The lineage are plants from Borneo. The Japanese do not make mistakes... usually lol... esp if they consider it valuable.
> 
> But I will do my research as I'm curious about the differentiation of the appletonianum complex.


Thanks for the Infos! I never saw plants like yours that are Borneo Origin. i know that Paph linii (bullenianum var. linii) occurs at Bako NP Sarawak. But looks completly different. Plants which i grew in my old collection as bullenianum also looked very different. Thats why i am confused.


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## DrLeslieEe (Feb 12, 2021)

Martin said:


> Thanks for the Infos! I never saw plants like yours that are Borneo Origin. i know that Paph linii (bullenianum var. linii) occurs at Bako NP Sarawak. But looks completly different. Plants which i grew in my old collection as bullenianum also looked very different. Thats why i am confused.


Hmmm interesting. Have you pics of these flowers for comparison you can share here?


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## Martin (Feb 12, 2021)

For example:


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## dodidoki (Feb 12, 2021)

How about hainaense???


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## dodidoki (Feb 12, 2021)

Martin said:


> For example:



It is diffrent from Leslie's bullenianum to me.


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## GuRu (Feb 12, 2021)

dodidoki said:


> How about hainaense???



Paphiopedilum hainanense is synonym to Paph. appletonianum


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## DrLeslieEe (Feb 12, 2021)

Martin said:


> For example:



Indeed the staminode is very different. 

The twisting of petals is variable and is not diagnostic. 

Dorsal markings and the bigger spotting on the basal part of petals are also different. 

Hmmmm... will do more checking..


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## DrLeslieEe (Feb 12, 2021)

Today:


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## Ozpaph (Feb 12, 2021)

DrLeslieEe said:


> I will take one when sunny inside. It's minus 12C outside lol.


Near a sunny window, inside? Minus 12C.......................yuck.


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## DrLeslieEe (Feb 12, 2021)

Ozpaph said:


> Near a sunny window, inside? Minus 12C.......................yuck.


Hehe that's what I meant. But no sun yet lol.


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## DrLeslieEe (Feb 13, 2021)

So the research starts! Gathered my library together lol.




Plus I reached out to Frank Cervera, Olaf Gruss, David Sorowsky, Glen Decker and Sam Tsui. 

Unfortunately the previous owner is undergoing major surgery this month so will not be available till later to add his version of events. 

I have some homework to do!


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## Greenpaph (Feb 13, 2021)

Thanks for sharing!


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## DrLeslieEe (Feb 13, 2021)

Flower today:


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## DrLeslieEe (Feb 14, 2021)

Finally, the sun has parted the clouds and shone in. So I took a few pics in various locations in growing area. This is the true color in natural light.









The petals appear to be a dark pink lavender in all kinds of light with a glossy texture. 

Also, I discovered the label. It was a sib of ('Eagle' x 'Atsumi' BM/JOGA) when it was robinsonii, a synonym of bullenianum! So this one was not originally from Borneo as I had thought. So now even more drama and confusion lol.

The research for ID continues as neither bullenianum or robinsonii fits the bill. So far likely candidates are appletonianum, cerveranum and amabile.


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## Martin (Feb 14, 2021)

Very beautiful flower! I like the colorful petals in theese species group.
I thought cerveranum and amabile are also synonym of appletonianum now. I had all "species" from this group in flower and havent seen any significant difference. I for myself think that theese are all one species with different local varieties.


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## GuRu (Feb 14, 2021)

DrLeslieEe said:


> .............neither bullenianum or robinsonii fits the bill. So far likely candidates are appletonianum, cerveranum and amabile.



Leslie, Paph. cerveranum / Paph. appletonianum var. cerveranum are synonyms to Paph. appletonianum. Paph. amabile / Paph. amabile is synonym to Paph. bulleanum var. bulleanum. So if you tend to Paph. amabile your tag would be right Paph. bulleanum var. bulleanum. Otherwise the only other possibility would be Paph. appletonianum.


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## Mike_B. (Feb 14, 2021)

Absolutely beautiful.


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## DrLeslieEe (Feb 14, 2021)

GuRu said:


> Leslie, Paph. cerveranum / Paph. appletonianum var. cerveranum are synonyms to Paph. appletonianum. Paph. amabile / Paph. amabile is synonym to Paph. bulleanum var. bulleanum. So if you tend to Paph. amabile your tag would be right Paph. bulleanum var. bulleanum. Otherwise the only other possibility would be Paph. appletonianum.


I understand most are synonyms of each other as I consult WCSP regularly (esp. in this case).

However all taxonomists who have lumped or separated each entity have always had doubts on their respective reclassification, indicated in all their descriptions. Most recommend that each entity be kept and bred in their own group until a full DNA study is carried out. The karyotypes range from 38 to 42 I think and therefore we might be seeing speciation of the ecotypes evolving. For this reason, the WCSP may not reflect the true identification just yet. 

As a result, in my current research, I have decided to keep the most viable subvarieties with full descriptions in literature as possible options. This was because the experts I consulted did so as well, giving me amabile and cerveranum as potential candidates. 

It is likely all may be grouped under appletonianum as subvarieties. Until then each must be identified and separated from cross breeding until the DNA is studied.

Therefore identifying my plant is essential for me to maintain the integrity of that subvariety (as I have many of these appletonianum types here).


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## UweM (Feb 15, 2021)

this is not a Paph. bullenianum or Paph. amabile from Sarawak (Borneo), but Paph. cerveranum (old name Paph. robinsonii) from Indochina


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## DrLeslieEe (Feb 15, 2021)

UweM said:


> this is not a Paph. bullenianum or Paph. amabile from Sarawak (Borneo), but Paph. cerveranum (old name Paph. robinsonii) from Indochina


Thanks for input but can you explain your deductions based on floral (or other) characteristics? I'm interested in how you conclude this identification, be it personal experience (like Martin) or literature etc.


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## UweM (Feb 15, 2021)

We Paphio lovers in particular should have an interest in distinguishing the plants according to their country of origin or island.

A DNA analysis or the descriptions in Paphio books are only possible if there are still living specimens of the individual "species" in the cultures - and then it becomes difficult.

Thanks to CITES, we will never see some local location variants live and the pictures of them are often not correctly described.

The best source for information on this subject has been the articles and site descriptions by Dr. Fowlii in Orchid Digest magazine.
From this I derive the following "types" or location variants:

the real bullenianum from Sarawak with the red underside of the leaf
amabile from Sarawak (Mt. Klamm)
linii from Sarawak (Bako Park) and Kalimantan
bullenianum (?) from Sabah




__





Paphiopedilum bullenianum


small flower, about 5-6cm wide. Another one (brother) to come




www.slippertalk.com




celebensis from Celebes
bundtii (bundtianum) from Celebes not officially described - collector Mr. Bundt
amboinense from Ambon
ceramense from Ceram
johorense from Malaysia Penisular and the island Tioman
tortipetalum from Sumatra


appletonianum from Indochina
hainanense from the island of hainan
cerveranum (previously robinsonii) from Indochina
wolterianum from southern Thailand
schmidtianum also as wolterianum var. schmidtianum


lots of space for splitter and lumper!


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## DrLeslieEe (Feb 15, 2021)

Great geographical compilation list of the related species. 

I'm looking for the reasons you think this is cerveranum (and not amabile as an example). Is it the staminode?


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## UweM (Feb 15, 2021)

yes, it is the heart-shaped staminodium.

In Europe these plants are also been sold as Paph. amabile.

But the true P. amabile comes from Borneo and not from Indochina.


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## DrLeslieEe (Feb 15, 2021)

The cordate or heart shape staminode with a tooth protrusion at the base is a good case for cerveranum indeed. This is also Olaf Gruss's determination. 

Plus what we assume the plant came from the Indo-China area, with Bangkok as source of original parents (Hanajima Orchids have a nursery there).


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## Ozpaph (Feb 15, 2021)

that's for the lovely natural light photos.


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## marcher85 (Feb 16, 2021)

Well done. Your plants are always awesome.


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## DrLeslieEe (Feb 17, 2021)

UweM said:


> yes, it is the heart-shaped staminodium.
> 
> In Europe these plants are also been sold as Paph. amabile.
> 
> But the true P. amabile comes from Borneo and not from Indochina.


Here's an amabile (pic courtesy of Paph Paradise) for comparison. Note the similarities in all but the staminode:





And here is one of the original jungle cerveranum to compare:




You can observe that the dark tooth on lower staminode margin is the same as on my flower, confirming the identity (in most likelihood).


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## Duck Slipper (Feb 17, 2021)

After reading and studying this thread, I agree, cerveranum.


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## myxodex (Feb 17, 2021)

I would say you have a nice cerveranum.

I agree we definitely need DNA work on these species. 

I've had a number of plants sold in the EU as amabile/or bullenianum and they all fitted the description of cerveranum. Cerveranum has a ciliated pouch rim, whereas in appletonianum it is smooth and also thicker in substance. The true bullenianums, including celebensis, have similar pouch and staminode surface characteristics to appletonianum, which are smooth (not pubescent or ciliated). If you look at older pictures of bullenianum (including celebensis) the petals are always edged with a thin border of yellow or green, eg. here : Paphiopedilum bullenianum 

If you google bullenianum images, most of what you get are wrong, except for a few nice pics from this forum (but the links are too long to include).
In general the flowers of bullenianum types have a thicker substance and are very glossy (which can make them tricky to photograph), which is not the case for cerveranum which has a more satin-like sheen. A plant I had of tortipetalum, looked very much like it belonged in the bullenianum complex, (just like Robhy Satria's photo in above link), but it died of fusarium infection after years of regular blooming, I miss it a lot, both beautiful leaves and flowers, and it's unlikely I'll ever be able to replace it. I also had a true celebensis which was also typical of the bullenianum "look", but not as colourful as my tortipetalum. 

P.amabile was described as a new species in the bullenianum complex, although Cribb dismissed it as identical. I have yet to see an amabile plant that comes anywhere close to looking like a member of the bullenianum complex, IMO it's simply a "commercial species". P.cerveranum is a lot, lot easier to grow and keep alive than the true bullenianum types, which is why, I suspect, that the true bullenianum identity is being supplanted by cerveranum. I've had a number of cerveranums over the years, bought mostly as amabile, but also labelled as bullenianum, celebesis and ceramesis.

The staminode in cerveranum is finely pubescent, and the apical tooth (usually dark red or brown) points backwards between the labellae at the back of the pouch. Cribb thought that robinsonii (now cerveranum) was a hybrid with hookerae (accounting for the pubescent staminode and ciliated pouch rim), but subsequently as more cerveranums have been collected it has turned out to be a variable species in it's own right. I recently got a plant also bought as amabile that has all the features that define cerveranum, but the pubescense on the staminode is much reduced compared to what I'm used to, and I suspect that appletonianum is being cross breed with cerveranum and the differences are being lost, despite the ease with which you can tell them apart, easier with a hand lens.


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## DrLeslieEe (Feb 17, 2021)

myxodex said:


> I would say you have a nice cerveranum.
> 
> I agree we definitely need DNA work on these species.
> 
> ...


Thanks Myxodex for that detailed experience with this species. It really sheds light into a complex that has seen tectonic changes to it in terms of names and relationships. 

And I'm glad my research had gone the right way. Goes to show if there is a will, there's always someone with an answer. Or at least a book lol.


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## UweM (Feb 18, 2021)

If you want to see more pictures of the individual "species" of bullenianum, appletonianum, wolterianum and cerveranum or of other Paphio species, I can only recommend the German orchid forum "orchideenfreunde.net". 
Simply register for free.









Paphiopedilum Naturformen


Forum für Neueinsteiger und Profis im Fachbereich Orchideen




www.orchideenfreunde.net





the little german text can then be translated


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## FrankRC (Feb 21, 2021)

Good morning all. This has been a very interesting thread to read and I want to thank everyone for sharing what appears to be years of thought, observation, and research into this name. There are few things I would like to add. 

_Paph. cerveranum_ demonstrates a lot of variation in the leaves. There are darker leaves, lighter colored leaves, leaves that are more heavily mottled, and leaves that present variations of color at the crown and along the underside of the leaves. Many of the larger Thai nurseries insist that they can ID a _cerveranum_ based on the leaves but this is not true, and these plants all originate from the same areas. Flowers also show some variations, as has been very well illustrated by Dr. Leslie in the three photos. The third photo in that group is one of my plants. I have six (6) and each varies somewhat in the depth of color, the size and quantity of the spots, and how hairy the staminode is, is also variable. The petals will reflex after being open for some time. How much the petals reflex is based on culture (humidity mostly) and individuality. Back in the early part of the last decade I had the chance to go to Vietnam and visit a nursery whose owner claimed he had a bench full of _cerveranum_. As expected there were variations. But not in the presence of the horn at the bottom of the staminode. As correctly noted by Olaf (Gruss, I think we all know him), this is the one diagnostic feature that is consistent and repeats from year to year. The horn at the bottom of the staminode, which is present in all three of the photos included here, is what you look for.

These plants were recognized as being different for quite some time, at least as far back as I can remember (1980's - no old man jokes please) and based on my conversations with several high profile Paph importers and taxonomists from that era, back as far as the 1970's. That seems to be where anyones first hand memories of these plants dates to. Throughout the 80's and 90's these plants were noted as different from appletonianum, imported as, and labelled as, "robinsonianum". It might still be possible today to see this name on a tag in a pot in a very old collection. These plants remained this way until the formal description. "_Robinsonianum_" had never been formally described as a species or natural hybrid. 

Today, this species is known from Southeast Asia, with populations in Vietnam (the source of the original plants) and Cambodia. This is not a natural hybrid or a hybrid swarm. Averyanov lumped this species in with _appletonianum. _However, that treatment ignored the stability of the staminodal horn and considered all variations of the staminode, plant, and flower, to be _appletonianum_. In my opinion, any argument made for or against _cerveranum_ as a species must be broadened to include all variable species concepts in the genus. Is anything that looks like _villosum_ a _villosum_, or do we have distinct species, varieties, and forms. Same for _coccineum_ which went from one name in the 1980's to perhaps a half dozen today depending on whose work you are reading. What is _gratrixianum _and how many more names will be applied to that concept? It appears that southeast Asia keeps throwing us curveballs when we are looking for something hard and straight. I fear genetics will never answer all our questions because there is variation in the genome within the genus. Although no proper study has been done on the genus there are studies on large genera of flowering plants that we can use as a guide. These studies demonstrate genetic variation within single species of flowering plants. If we are expecting a definitive answer from a genetic study, I don't think that will be forthcoming.

That all being said, _cerveranum_ can only be distinguished by the horn at the base of the staminode. _Appletonianum_ has a staminode that is nothing like this. Is this a species? Ask _villosum, coccineum, gratrixianum, philippinense, _and whomever is peddling a book for sale at the moment.

Kind regards,


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## DrLeslieEe (Feb 21, 2021)

FrankRC said:


> Good morning all. This has been a very interesting thread to read and I want to thank everyone for sharing what appears to be years of thought, observation, and research into this name. There are few things I would like to add.
> 
> _Paph. cerveranum_ demonstrates a lot of variation in the leaves. There are darker leaves, lighter colored leaves, leaves that are more heavily mottled, and leaves that present variations of color at the crown and along the underside of the leaves. Many of the larger Thai nurseries insist that they can ID a _cerveranum_ based on the leaves but this is not true, and these plants all originate from the same areas. Flowers also show some variations, as has been very well illustrated by Dr. Leslie in the three photos. The third photo in that group is one of my plants. I have six (6) and each varies somewhat in the depth of color, the size and quantity of the spots, and how hairy the staminode is, is also variable. The petals will reflex after being open for some time. How much the petals reflex is based on culture (humidity mostly) and individuality. Back in the early part of the last decade I had the chance to go to Vietnam and visit a nursery whose owner claimed he had a bench full of _cerveranum_. As expected there were variations. But not in the presence of the horn at the bottom of the staminode. As correctly noted by Olaf (Gruss, I think we all know him), this is the one diagnostic feature that is consistent and repeats from year to year. The horn at the bottom of the staminode, which is present in all three of the photos included here, is what you look for.
> 
> ...


Thank you Frank for such a nice commentary on the personal historical and morphological importance in the determination of this species. My research has indeed been a real eye opener for my understanding of this concept, where everybody with the stroke of a pen on their desk can move species through the ranks to any permutable allocations as they see fit, sometimes without the concrete evidence backing it up. This has lead to much confusion among the taxonomists and therefore to the growers ourselves. 

I do feel a combination of phytology, morphology and phenotypes need to be combined with the DNA studies to have a complete view of the plant. Then a logical conclusion can be made based on all aspects to determine the species and its relations with the others in its ilk.


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## lori.b (Feb 21, 2021)

I like yours better Leslie (but don't tell your friend). I this has been a bit like waiting for Santa to arrive for you.


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## UweM (Feb 24, 2021)

DrLeslieEe said:


> I do feel a combination of phytology, morphology and phenotypes need to be combined with the DNA studies to have a complete view of the plant. Then a logical conclusion can be made based on all aspects to determine the species and its relations with the others in its ilk.



It's too late for that - thanks to CITES we will never see or cultivate most of the species I have listed.

Almost all of the species mentioned have been described according to the botanical rules!

In China, botanists have described other paphs with herbal staminodium:

Paph. tridentatum, Paph. angustifolium and Paph. puberulum

Western botanists do not recognize these species - what are the rules for?

But I find it much worse that you are now crossing the many species or local location variants with each other - everything is Paph. bullenianum???

Most of the pictures that are shown on the internet of these species are often incorrect

Great prospects for our hobby


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## DrLeslieEe (Feb 24, 2021)

Well, lucky for us we are not taxonomists and we just enjoy the species as they are. We do our best to identify them and continue the line to the best of our knowledge and abilities. 

Let the academia fight among themselves hehe.


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