# cardboard propagation of Dactylorhiza purpurella



## naoki (Mar 1, 2015)

In Japan, people have been successfully germinating some terrestrial orchids with cardboard for a long time. There are semi-scientific study about this, but none knows why the cardboard works. Actually, I started to put cardboard strips into the side wall of epiphytic orchids, too. I tried this method of propagation with my Dactylorhiza purpurella. I posted the photo of this plant in another thread. The parent came from Great Lakes Orchids. I didn't do hand pollination of this parent (which I'm calling 'NT3'), and I think that some insects did the work for me (they were growing outside). About 5 of them were flowering at the same time.

Sept 29, 2014:
The seeds were harvested when the three capsules naturally dehisced (or almost splitting) around Sept 29.

Oct 17, 2014: Cardboard sowing

potting soil from garden, coarse perlite, some small bark, sheet moss from backyard. Then placed in garage, which could go down to 40F. Around Jan, it was brought into the bedroom around 60-70/50-55F in the dark grow tent. Feb 26, lots of germination, about 0.5-2mm. some seems to have starrted root.

I made holes to the bottom of a salad container (about 30x20cm with 10cm height). Then cut up strips from a cardboard box.




Arranged the cardboard strips, and fill it with about 1.5" of dirt. I forgot the exact composition. I mixed potting soil (peat based) used for other plants previously and added a bit of coarse perlite (sponge rock). Maybe 2:1? Then I dug up some soil (organic layer, topsoil) from my backyard which is mixed Spruce, Poplar, Birch forest (as source of fungi) and mixed in (probably 1/10 of the total volume).





Then I sprinkled a little bit of live "sheet moss" which I found in my backyard.





Then I sprinkled orchid seeds with help of my 3 year old son.





Then I covered it with a lid, and set it in a tray of water. My helper's foot with a polar bear sock is in the photo, too!




I left it in the garage which is about 40F for about 2 months. Then I moved it indoor (55F) around the end of Jan. I noticed that mold was starting to grow at this time. I kept it completely dark indoor, and I have forgotten about it.

Feb 26. 2015:
After 1 month of darkness, this is what you get:

















The protocomb is between 0.5-2.5mm. It appears that the root is starting to form (the first photo top right). I've heard that other people tried this with Dactylorhiza, and they also got the protocombs, but the growth after that was slow. So I still don't know if it will continue to grow, but I'll try to keep editing this original message to document the failure or success.

I was going to post it when the story is more complete, but I need some help from people with more experiences with European terrestrials. My question is that when is a good time to bring them out from the darkness. Any advise?


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## NYEric (Mar 1, 2015)

No idea, I've never tried terrestrials from seed. I saw your post about raising Ponerorchis this way, it just says to transplant them. If you have extra corms...


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## Berthold (Mar 2, 2015)

naoki said:


> My question is that when is a good time to bring them out from the darkness. Any advise?



As soon as possible, but don't kill the fungi by dry air


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## naoki (Mar 2, 2015)

Than you, Berthold. I was hoping that you'll give me the answer!

Eric, yes, this method was used for Poneorchis graminifolia at first (around 1983, and introduced to public by a magazine around 1988). Then people started to try it with others. I've heard successes with Amitostigma keiskei, A. gracile, A. lepidum, Bletilla striata, Neottianthe cucullata, Microtis unipolar, Orchis chidori, Pecteilis radiata, Spiranthes sinensis var. sinensis. I have lots of seeds from last year, so if you want to try it, I can send them to you.


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## NYEric (Mar 2, 2015)

Sure. Seeds of what?


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## naoki (Mar 2, 2015)

Sorry, I meant the seeds of Dactylorhiza purpurella. If you are interested in them, you can send me your mailing address or something via PM. I think that growing them after gemination may be the difficult part with this lazy sowing method, though.


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## Rick (Mar 2, 2015)

That's really cool:clap:

I wonder if the cardboard is an easy source of degradable cellulose?

I saw a non sterile method in Orchids a few years ago that made little gelatin balls out of orchid seed and purified mycorhyzae inoculant. The balls (maybe a few mm across) were placed on petri dishes of damp peat moss. Germination and growth was great.

(I think some type of oncidium).


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## NYEric (Mar 2, 2015)

Sure I will try them, thanks.


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## naoki (Mar 3, 2015)

Rick said:


> I wonder if the cardboard is an easy source of degradable cellulose?
> 
> I saw a non sterile method in Orchids a few years ago that made little gelatin balls out of orchid seed and purified mycorhyzae inoculant. The balls (maybe a few mm across) were placed on petri dishes of damp peat moss. Germination and growth was great.
> 
> (I think some type of oncidium).



Good to see you back, Rick! You must have been busy recently.

The cardboard has extremely high C:N ratio, and it is because of cellulose (and maybe lignin?) as you mentioned. Some people think the cellulose degrading fungi help orchid germination. From reading a little bit, orchids seem to have a wider range of fungi for gemination than for mycorrhizal relationship at the adult stage. At this gemination stage, they are basically "eating" fungi, and they can deal with some "pathogenic" fungi.

I've heard that one person tried cardboard method with Dendrobium moniliform and reported success, but it is not confirmed (no photo etc). Most people assume that it doesn't work with epiphytes. One person has successfully germinated Cyp. reginae, but she couldn't get it keep growing.

It would be interesting to see if some nutritional/hormonal supplement after germination (maybe with sugar, oats, or fruit juice). I know P isn't good for fungal association.

Symbiotic germination is pretty interesting stuff. I wonder what mycorrhizae was used for epiphyte. I think that there is a new NSF funded project to study mycorrhizal diversity of tropical epiphytic orchids. My friend is in the team, but I haven't gotten the details about the project yet.

Eric, sounds good.


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## eteson (Mar 4, 2015)

Very Cool!
Naoki, thanks for sharing.


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## gonewild (Mar 4, 2015)

naoki said:


> It would be interesting to see if some nutritional/hormonal supplement after germination (maybe with sugar, oats, or fruit juice). I know P isn't good for fungal association.



I think using sugars or fruit juices would cause a bloom of undesirable molds and yeasts to grow which likely would overtake the seedlings and consume them.
I had a bunch of Epidendrum seeds germinate in one of our growing beds and germination was good and a lot of seedlings made it to the root stage. But at that point there was an algae/fungal sheet bloom that quickly covered the media surface and all the germinated seed and seedlings quickly vanished.


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## naoki (Mar 4, 2015)

Thanks, Lance. I think you are probably right that other fungi could take over. When it was in dark, algae (cyanobacteria) weren't the problem, but I should watch out for them.


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## Stone (Mar 5, 2015)

Great stuff! They are growing paphs from seed in a similar way in Japan apparently..


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## cnycharles (Mar 5, 2015)

gonewild said:


> I think using sugars or fruit juices would cause a bloom of undesirable molds and yeasts to grow which likely would overtake the seedlings and consume them.



a few years back I tried using mountain dew drench (for caffeine) to kill snails and all i got was some nasty slime growing on the media! 'guess i should have used the 'sugar free'


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## John M (Mar 6, 2015)

Stone said:


> Great stuff! They are growing paphs from seed in a similar way in Japan apparently..



Ooooooh, tell me more, please! :drool:


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## Berthold (Mar 6, 2015)

John M said:


> Ooooooh, tell me more, please! :drool:


I do not believe


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## naoki (Mar 6, 2015)

In a Japanese book (Have fun with reproduction of wild orchids by Tokyo Alpine Garden Society), which describes card-board method, they mention an example where someone successfully obtained seedlings of P. micranthum x P. delenatii from the cardboard method. But there was no detail. I've seen a blog where the person tried it with P. delenatii, but the results weren't reported (so I assume that it failed). So I don't know if it is possible or not with Paphs. I also think that it is unlikely, but it is interesting to try (and it's probably super inefficient).

Charles, controlling sugar is probably pretty difficult. I was reading about D. moniliform cultivation in Japan, and some people are trying to use sugar supplement to enhance the growth and "features" of the varieties. They said that it is tough to get the right concentration and combination of ingredients (the person didn't reveal the secret additive). Most of the time, it ends up killing the plants by causing some infection. I need to read more about it. I think John M uses sugar water for acclimation of dehydrated plants?

For snail control, caffeine powder (not pill) from eBay seems to be the cheapest way to get it. DavidCampen and I talked about this (and he probably mentioned it here on in another forum), but the concentration of caffeine used for the Bush snail experiment was pretty high. So I'm not sure Mountain dew has enough caffeine. Additionally, there are several experiments testing for phytotoxicity of caffeine. The bush snail dosage is around the level where plants' root growth is suppressed. I think Ray had success with caffeine getting rid of slug or snail. So it may be ok for occasional use. DavidCampen suggested Phyton 20 for bush snails. When I sprayed it, it did kill a bush snail. When I get a chance, I'll probably breed some more bush snails and experiment more.


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## John M (Mar 6, 2015)

naoki said:


> In a Japanese book (Have fun with reproduction of wild orchids by Tokyo Alpine Garden Society), which describes card-board method, they mention an example where someone successfully obtained seedlings of P. micranthum x P. delenatii from the cardboard method. But there was no detail. I've seen a blog where the person tried it with P. delenatii, but the results weren't reported (so I assume that it failed). So I don't know if it is possible or not with Paphs. I also think that it is unlikely, but it is interesting to try (and it's probably super inefficient). *Hmmm. Thanks. Maybe I'll give it a try and play around a bit with this method.*
> 
> I think John M uses sugar water for acclimation of dehydrated plants?
> *Nope. Not me. Dehydrated plants get plunged and soaked overnight in plain, fresh water.*



..


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## cnycharles (Mar 6, 2015)

It is suggested that plant cuttings that have had a hard trip through the mail or stored in cooler a bit long get a soak in sugar water (unrooted annual/perennial cuttings). Don't know general rate, but it is an accepted horticultural practice


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## KyushuCalanthe (Mar 11, 2015)

Interesting. Reminds me of the tree bark method: http://www.orchideenvermehrung.at/cgi-local/framebreaker/reload.pl?english/seed germination/bark/ The big issue is to get the little guys to grow up to maturity.

As an aside, I've had volunteer seedlings of Dendrobium moniliforme and Ponerorchis graminifolia show up in my garden - the former on tree fern mounts and the latter in moss covered pots. Of course every year dozens of Spiranthes make an appearance, usually in pots of "old soil".


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## eteson (Mar 11, 2015)

You would try the use of Methylparaben. I tested it some years ago when i started flasking. I do not remember exactly the concentration but i think that it was around 0.3 to 0.5%. It avoids fungus formation and I think that it stops also bacterial contamination.


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## naoki (Mar 11, 2015)

Sorry, John. I was thinking of Roy from this thread.



cnycharles said:


> It is suggested that plant cuttings that have had a hard trip through the mail or stored in cooler a bit long get a soak in sugar water (unrooted annual/perennial cuttings). Don't know general rate, but it is an accepted horticultural practice



Thanks for the info about horticultural practice, Charles!



KyushuCalanthe said:


> Interesting. Reminds me of the tree bark method: http://www.orchideenvermehrung.at/cgi-local/framebreaker/reload.pl?english/seed germination/bark/ The big issue is to get the little guys to grow up to maturity.
> 
> As an aside, I've had volunteer seedlings of Dendrobium moniliforme and Ponerorchis graminifolia show up in my garden - the former on tree fern mounts and the latter in moss covered pots. Of course every year dozens of Spiranthes make an appearance, usually in pots of "old soil".



That is an interesting web site, Tom. I agree that germination part seems to be easy, but making them grow is the tough part with this kind of lazy method. Are these Den and Ponerochis from seeds from the nature or from your plants? It is pretty cool, though.



eteson said:


> You would try the use of Methylparaben. I tested it some years ago when i started flasking. I do not remember exactly the concentration but i think that it was around 0.3 to 0.5%. It avoids fungus formation and I think that it stops also bacterial contamination.



Thanks for the info, I'm not familiar with this, so I'll read about it. But it probably kills good fungi, too, doesn't it?


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## eteson (Mar 11, 2015)

Yes it does. It is more like asymbiotic germination.


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## Stone (Mar 13, 2015)

Berthold said:


> I do not believe





http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/research/tanaka/enseedling/enseedling7.html


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## KyushuCalanthe (Mar 13, 2015)

naoki said:


> That is an interesting web site, Tom. I agree that germination part seems to be easy, but making them grow is the tough part with this kind of lazy method. Are these Den and Ponerochis from seeds from the nature or from your plants? It is pretty cool, though.



I wish they were from natural sources, but I don't live near wild populations of either species. So, to answer your question, the seed is from my garden plants. The Spiranthes seed in by themselves since they are common roadside weeds here.


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## Berthold (Mar 13, 2015)

Stone said:


> http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/research/tanaka/enseedling/enseedling7.html



Stone, thanks, but some years ago there was a British physical chemist who caused a nuclear fusion in his laboratory. 
But the procedure could not be reproduced by himself or anybody else on the world


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## Linus_Cello (Mar 13, 2015)

Berthold said:


> Stone, thanks, but some years ago there was a British physical chemist who caused a nuclear fusion in his laboratory.
> But the procedure could not be reproduced by himself or anybody else on the world



And Utah (BYU)?


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## naoki (Apr 23, 2016)

Here is an update of this project. Here is the rough sketch of what happened during the last year.

- Oct 14, 2014
Cardboard sowing. Placed in the heated garage, which could go down to 40F.

- Jan., 2015
Brought them indoor (60-70/50-55F) in the dark grow tent.

- Feb 26, 2015
lots of germination, about 0.5-2mm.

- Mid March, 2015
some were transplanted to another cardboard setup. Too many germination, and it was getting too crowded. All of these were experimental, and they didn't make it. This is part of the reason that the number of survivors are low. I have to think how to deal with this transplant issue. The ones which was left in the original germination container survived, and kept growing.

- April 13, 2015
some were moved under T8 light. I left others (including the original germination tray which survived) in the dark until later in the summer (I forgot to record when I brought them under the light). But they appear to be able to stay in the dark for a long time.

- Oct 24, 2015
moved to cool garage (around 10F). By this time, the tubers were about 6-8mm long, and they looked dormant. Quite a lot of germinated seeds didn't grow as fast as the ones which grew well. In other words, there were 2 discrete group; good growers and not good growers (majority). By this time, most of the cardboard was completely degraded and became mash. In the first year, I could see the leaf like structure, but none of them expanded the leaves. I think they need cold period to expand the leaves.

- April 11, 2016
They were moved indoor (72F max, 63F min) under old-fashioned red+blue LED. Inside of the container was still moist, I watered only once or twice in the winter dormancy. I didn't see any green leaves, but the tubers looked ok.

- April 22, 2016
The leaves appeared from about 5 tubers, about 2cm long. Amazingly quick expansion of the leaves. I'm going to start to remove the cover gradually.

So, it seems that this may be a success after all. The rest should be similar to deflasked seedlings. The number of survivors is low, but if I paid more attention, I'm sure I have gotten quite a bit more than a half dozen. I sprinkled tiny beat of oat meal to "feed" fungi. It wasn't a good idea, and this killed some seedlings.

Last year, the parents flowered well, so I got lots of seeds, if anyone wants to try this, let me know. I can send you the seeds from 2015 or maybe something fresh this fall.

The leaves expanded to 2cm in 11 days after bringing them into warm room.




These two are smaller ones (about 1cm):




How the original germination bed looks like. You can see the leaves on far right. The cardboard pieces are completely degraded.


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## NYEric (Apr 23, 2016)

Thanks for sharing, I wonder if tubers could benifit from growing in a similar set-up.


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