# And the 'Best' fertilizer for orchids is...



## limuhead (Aug 17, 2013)

None of the above. After experimenting with many different fertilizers and amendments over the years I have come to the conclusion that there is no best or better fertilizer. Here is why I believe what I believe. Proper culture, good water, and adequate light can't be remedied with fertilizers or amendments of ANY type. I have excellent growing conditions; great light, humidity levels, air movement. I have used Miracle Grow, Peters, MSU, K-lite, Fish Emulsion and maybe a dozen other products. I use and have used Calcium Nitrate, Epsom Salts, Dolomite, EM, Kelp, as well as a few other product to promote beneficial microorganisms to boost growth. The healthiest and most vigorous orchids I have are the ones growing in the mosses in my trees. They rarely get fertilizer, are watered when it rains(or occasionally when I have time or remember to hit them with the hose) and every once in a while get some insecticidal soap or a light dose of biological fungicide. Other than the plants in the trees my best plants are the ones in baskets with little or no media and tons of aerial roots. I think Lance of Gone Wild posted some pictures of wild orchid roots that were in mosses that were really kind of growing through them, not really attached. That pretty much confirms what I believe. Mounted orchids that I grow and Paphs and Phrags that are potted in a very loose mix(at least 30% large perlite) are doing really good but as far as fertilizer I have not seen anything that would make me believe that one is better than the other. As far as fertilizers are concerned the only measureable results I have seen are that ammonia/urea based fertilizers will give you rapid growth, but without enough light that growth will be soft and susceptible to bacteria and fungal problems because it has not had a chance to harden off; in other words if they grow too fast it weakens the plant as a whole. The maximum strength fertilizer I use is >100 ppm on hot sunny days in the summer. I flush my pots at least once a week, and by flushing, and I mean complete drenching, overflowing pots. I will saturate my entire collection and then repeat the process several times; waiting about 10 minutes between watering. This, more than anything will make a difference as far as fertilizers are concerned. Maybe under less than ideal conditions fertilizers make a real difference. When I joined this forum my intention was to become a better grower, which has happened thanks to a multitude of information provided by informed and exceptional people. I think the best way to grow the healthiest, vigorous orchids of any type is to do your best to simulate the natural environment that the orchid comes from; which granted is difficult at best to do. Of all the variables concerning orchid growing fertilizer is, in my opinion, the least important. Going outside to take a few pictures, will post some later. I am looking forward to feedback; pro and con in order to help myself as well as others become better growers(because that is what Slippertalk is all about... Right?)


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## ehanes7612 (Aug 17, 2013)

i am beginning to think the same thing..I think my achilles heel was growing in mostly CHC while giving too much light (concerning paphs) ..my phrags seem to do well in anything..now I grow in bark and about 1/3 perlite


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## limuhead (Aug 17, 2013)

This is an unknown Dendrobium hybrid growing on my neighbors Ti leaf plant. Roots totally embedded in moss and lichens, spike or spikes on almost every growth, leaves, psuedobulbs, and roots growing like gangbusters, NEVER gets ANY fertilizer, water(other than rain), fungicide, insecticide, or other amendments.


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## limuhead (Aug 17, 2013)

Dendrobium cumulatum in my Macadamia nut tree. Check out the roots growing up and through the moss. This, as well as all of the other orchids in my trees are ones that were struggling or fell out of the pots because of little or no roots...





It has been pretty much in bud or in bloom shortly after mounting in the tree. Pretty decent considering it is 'supposed' to bloom once a year...


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## limuhead (Aug 17, 2013)

Dendrobium cuthbersonii that was all but dead. Stuck it in the moss on the Macnut tree. It had zero roots, and was losing leaves...





Less than 3 months later it has a bud developing and is locked in...


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## limuhead (Aug 17, 2013)

Epigenium lyonii blooming on growths out of the pot. Everything in the pot is tattered; roots are history except those that are starting on the growths in mid-air. This one is going on the tree after it done flowering.


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## Paphman910 (Aug 17, 2013)

I totally agree! 

I grow alot of my Paphs in a mixture of CHC, moss, charcoal and perlite. 

My multifloral species do tend to grow about twice the size compared to someone who grows it locally in a greenhouse because I get constant light from the HID and warmth year round.

I decided to alternate with 25-10-10, 20-20-20, 10-52-10, and calmag each week. I also added osmocote 20-7-10 in my bark mix medium.


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## limuhead (Aug 17, 2013)

Roots coming out of and going back in the basket of a Formosum Dendrobium hybrid. The basket has 2 or 3 chunks of large pathway bark; just enough to hold it stable while the roots are established. This is another plant that had no roots when it was 'mounted'. I say mounted because essentially that's what it is.


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## limuhead (Aug 17, 2013)

Some assorted Phrags recently potted up from 2 inch to 4 inch pots. The media is 1/3 Kiwi bark, 1/3 CHC, and 1/3 large(#3) perlite. These plants exploded with new growth after transplanting. If you look closely you can see some 'light' areas on the leaves. Not sure what happened, but it corrected itself when I switched fertilizers and moved the plants into an area that gets more light. I don't think the fertilizer made a difference but we will never know because I changed multiple variables and the problem corrected itself...


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## limuhead (Aug 17, 2013)

A while back I posted about getting a whole bunch of Cymbidium plugs. Here are a few of them. In my opinion more perlite + less fertilizer + more water = faster, but more importantly BETTER growth. The only thing that sucks is that the smaller plants that I put in 2 inch pots are going to need to go into 4 inch pots within a month or so...


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## gonewild (Aug 17, 2013)

The only thing you said I disagree with is "_there is no best or better fertilizer."_

I've spent the last couple months looking at how orchids grow in the wild and specifically where their nutrients might come from. There is no doubt the nutrients come mostly from moss, lichens and the host tree. Some of the nutrients comes from dead leaves but I don't think enough to grow the plants.

Growing in Nature orchids get all the correct nutrients from entities, live moss live lichens, live tree bark and live fungus that decompose dead leaves.

The reason I disagree with _"there is no best or better fertilizer."_ is because almost all orchids in collections are grown in dead or non living media. So to replace what a living media provides growers must supply artificial nutrient supplies. There is some fertilizer formula that best replicates what the living organisms provide in Nature and what ever that formula is it is "the best".

Your growing conditions are "Natural". The plants growing on your trees in association with lichen and moss get what they need without additional fertilizer. But very few growers have an environment that will support moss in contact with the roots.

Planting in a pot full of bark is about as far from natural as you can get. I say this because the bark is dead. It does not replace living tree bark. Moss does not grow below the surface around the roots. No orchid in Nature grows in a mass of bark chips. Most epiphytes have their roots growing attached to bark with the majority of the root exposed to air not buried in dead bark. The exposed root surface is most often in contact with living moss and lichens.

The ideal solution is to create an environment that would allow the plants to grow in or on a living media. But this is not feasible for most growers. As a substitute to the living media we must fertilize dead media with some form of nutrient supply.

The real secret to orchid nutrition lies in learning how the living media feeds the orchids and in what form the nutrients are supplied. I have my doubts that the nutrients come in the form of soluble salts but rather some other form, perhaps amino acids.


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## Ray (Aug 17, 2013)

Limuhead - Holy crap, man! Learn to use the return key! Paragraphs are your friend.

You are biased, as you live in an environment where the conditions are so favorable, that variations in one or another aspect of growing is probably not that evident. For those of us growing in more "marginal" conditions, one little blip can have a big impact.

Lastly I'll most agree with you. I believe that nutrition is quite low down on the plants' "Maslow Hierarchy".

Lance - a l-o-n-g time ago, a retired organic chemist in Florida invented an organic liquid fertilizer (and I mean organic in the chemical way) that contained all of the required ions from a single component, and it was a chemical compound, not a solution. If I recall, it was a very complex-, or was based upon an amino acid. I had a couple of gallons, and they worked quite well. Too bad the guy went out of business.


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## limuhead (Aug 17, 2013)

gonewild said:


> The only thing you said I disagree with is "_there is no best or better fertilizer."_
> 
> I've spent the last couple months looking at how orchids grow in the wild and specifically where their nutrients might come from. There is no doubt the nutrients come mostly from moss, lichens and the host tree. Some of the nutrients comes from dead leaves but I don't think enough to grow the plants.
> 
> ...



Couldn't agree with you more about the living environment, and I am really glad you replied. The moss you see my orchids growing in is starting to grow in some of my pots and other mounted plants. What do you think about inoculating pots with the moss(it grows everywhere here) and all but eliminating fertilizer? I bet I could make 1 bag of fertilizer last me the rest of my life if I could figure out the beneficial relationship between the moss and the orchids...


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## TyroneGenade (Aug 17, 2013)

This thread on fertilizer gels so wonderfully with another thread wherein I imparted sage advice that I cannot help but point you in its general direction. The questions is "What fertilizer do you recommend" and the answer: http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=424827&postcount=10


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## AdamD (Aug 17, 2013)

I grow in clear plastic pots. I almost never get moss on top of my pots but almost all of my plants have moss growing inside the pots, within a few weeks of repotting. I consider it a nuisance and try to control it with physan. Even my water containers once in a while will start growing algae, reminding me it's time for Physan. Should I discontinue this practice and let the tiny microhabitat do its own thing?


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## limuhead (Aug 17, 2013)

AdamD said:


> I grow in clear plastic pots. I almost never get moss on top of my pots but almost all of my plants have moss growing inside the pots, within a few weeks of repotting. I consider it a nuisance and try to control it with physan. Even my water containers once in a while will start growing algae, reminding me it's time for Physan. Should I discontinue this practice and let the tiny microhabitat do its own thing?



I am not so sure about that one. One thing that I have noticed, and it may have a lot to do with my conditions, is that the healthiest, most vigorous potted plants I have all have some type of moss or algae growing in the pot or on the media. I am more inclined to believe, and again I have no proof other than what I see is that my orchids that are growing along with mosses, lichens and similar to how they grow in nature seem to be the healthiest. For the most part these are the ones that get little or no fertilizer. Look, I know that I am fortunate; if not blessed to have the conditions I have. I was just wondering if the relationships that are happening and promoting good orchid health could and should be focused on more. I, for one am interested in using less fertilizers and chemicals. If symbiotic relationships could be developed to work in pots then I think all orchid growers would be better off not using so many chemicals...


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## gonewild (Aug 17, 2013)

Ray said:


> Lance - a l-o-n-g time ago, a retired organic chemist in Florida invented an organic liquid fertilizer (and I mean organic in the chemical way) that contained all of the required ions from a single component, and it was a chemical compound, not a solution. If I recall, it was a very complex-, or was based upon an amino acid. I had a couple of gallons, and they worked quite well. Too bad the guy went out of business.



He was probably on the right track! 
In the past I would have said no way that we had to stick to traditional fertilizer methods, but not now.... we need to look in different directions.


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## Rick (Aug 17, 2013)

I have made the point ad-nauseum about following natures lead with regard to growing orchids. And that meant including the chemical environment (along with light, water, temps). The typical feed rates growers use are orders of magnitude greater than what they see in the wild. And now after arguing that point with us for the last year or so, you are making the same conclusion it seems.

In some ways K lite was just the stepping stone for many of the same conclusions I made when developing the concept in the first place. Mounted plants better than potted, folks growing great specimen plants with no supplementation at all. You just mentioned that you think growers would be better of using less chemicals. That's exactly what low K was all about!! It has less K and P than traditional balanced ferts, and it works fine.

I've linked multiple papers to this site on what orchids "see" chemically in the wild with regard to basic inorganic nutrients for the last couple years in the development of the low K concept, and it seems indirectly that you found that it works.:wink:


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## gonewild (Aug 17, 2013)

limuhead said:


> Couldn't agree with you more about the living environment, and I am really glad you replied. The moss you see my orchids growing in is starting to grow in some of my pots and other mounted plants. What do you think about inoculating pots with the moss(it grows everywhere here) and all but eliminating fertilizer? I bet I could make 1 bag of fertilizer last me the rest of my life if I could figure out the beneficial relationship between the moss and the orchids...



YES!

If we could get the right moss species or lichen species and then manage an environment that would support those species we would not need fertilizer. As near as I can find out very little has been studied in this area. So we need to experiment.

I'm not sure how successful inoculating pots will be because what I am seeing in the wild plants is the actual contact between moss and roots. If the surface of the pot is covered in moss we don't know if the nutrients are carried down through the media by water. There might be a direct contact exchange between the moss surface and orchid root.
I have always encouraged moss to grow in my pots because the plants grow healthier. I assumed it had more to do with environment than nutrition but now I'm not so sure.

But perhaps all moss species do not have the nutrient benefit. Maybe it is more to do with lichen that grows on the moss?

And now consider that many growers use sphagnum moss and don't get the benefit. Sphagnum moss is a bog plant and not the same as epiphytic moss. Sphagnum moss is almost always dead in potting media.

The way to use moss to advantage is to figure out how to grow live moss around our orchid roots. For most people this might be impossible because of the humidity and light requirement moss has, not easy to accomplish on a window sill.

For most growers we need to find the correct nutrient ratio to use in fertilizer to substitute for the natural supplies. This is where the "best" fertilizer point of view comes to play. Rick's approach at using leaf litter content as a basis to determine the K-lite ratio is spot on. Now we need to compare that to what comes from mosses and lichens and if needed adjust the numbers.
Where the low potassium part enters into play is in it's toxicity to micro fauna. The micro fauna (bacteria, funji, moss, lichen, ect) probably are important to the root nutrient exchange. 
My question is why are there lichens growing on or near every wild orchid I look at and never on orchids growing in pots?

We need to keep an open mind and try new ideas and not rely on proven science.


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## gonewild (Aug 17, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> This thread on fertilizer gels so wonderfully with another thread wherein I imparted sage advice that I cannot help but point you in its general direction. The questions is "What fertilizer do you recommend" and the answer: http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=424827&postcount=10



Fairys play an important role in orchid nutrition. Problem with your method is that you grind up the Fairys. Create an environment and allow the Fairys to live and they carry little buckets for food to each orchid root. 
(I hope the Mother does not punish me for letting this slip)
:wink:


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## gonewild (Aug 17, 2013)

AdamD said:


> I grow in clear plastic pots. I almost never get moss on top of my pots but almost all of my plants have moss growing inside the pots, within a few weeks of repotting. I consider it a nuisance and try to control it with physan. Even my water containers once in a while will start growing algae, reminding me it's time for Physan. Should I discontinue this practice and let the tiny microhabitat do its own thing?



Moss growing in the pot is a desirable thing in my opinion. When you use a chemical to kill it you kill all beneficial organisms. I would never do that.
Algae is a different issue. If it is the right Algae species then it will create Nitrogen for you plants. But probably the algae growth is a result of high nutrient levels and the algae is growing and consuming the fertilizer you are applying. Normally we would say that algae consuming the nutrients we apply is a bad thing but is it? maybe the algae is doing you a favor by reducing the nutrient levels when they are to high for orchids.
I have pictures of slimy algae growing on healthy wild orchid roots so it is actually a natural occurrence.


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## gonewild (Aug 17, 2013)

limuhead said:


> If symbiotic relationships could be developed to work in pots then I think all orchid growers would be better off not using so many chemicals...



There is a major discovery waiting for someone to discover it.


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## TyroneGenade (Aug 17, 2013)

gonewild said:


> Fairys play an important role in orchid nutrition. Problem with your method is that you grind up the Fairys. Create an environment and allow the Fairys to live and they carry little buckets for food to each orchid root.
> (I hope the Mother does not punish me for letting this slip)
> :wink:



A good point. Perhaps this success in Hawaii has to do with the proximity to the forest, which is obviously full of fairies.

But now for some sane points:

1. Dust. Rain drops coalesce around dust particles. These particles can bring various nutrients as the dust can be old skin cells (full of NP and a little K oke: ) or volcanic ash (full of minerals: Mg, Ca, Fe etc...). 

2. Trees are really good at catching the rain... and therefore also of dust. So trees are very good at gather nutrients.

3. Trees harbour insects, birds, fairies etc... Which will leave behind little packets of poo which are very good sources of N and P.

Therefore, an orchid in a tree is well supplied with nutrients and the hose pipe would do a very good job of washing all this nutrition away if there weren't some mosses and lichens to hold onto it.

limuhead, do you water with rain water? (but this could be beside the point) Looking at your mix I notice the CHC which has great water retention properties which will increase pot humidity and favor root growth. The perlite would increase pot aeration which is needed to have high humidity without rotting roots. 

Mosses and stuff could be correlative with a healthy pot and not be the cause of the healthy pot. Surely an experiment can be performed to test this (there is ample moss in your pig's forest), can you spare some plants for an experiment: 5 plants in normal mix and 5 plants in normal mix with moss. Weigh each plant before and after as we want to calculate the percentage change in mass for each plant as a measure of growth. I suppose we could add a 3rd group of 5 plants in normal mix plus a small twice-weekly amount of dilute fertilizer.

Bye


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## limuhead (Aug 17, 2013)

I am a carpenter by trade. I know that there are more than a few scientific minds that contribute to this forum on a regular basis. Being a person that likes to keep it simple would my organic fish emulsion (5-1-1) and the right combination of dolomite and Epsom salts give me similar results as K-lite type formulation? I would be willing to put more time and effort into my plants if I could eliminate the use of chemicals entirely. I go to First Ray's website frequently and think that some of the things there work great(I am afraid to try some as well). I wouldn't lose any sleep if I didn't give any more of my money to the chemical companies.


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## gonewild (Aug 17, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> But now for some sane points:



Wouldn't that require that we stop growing orchids?


> 1. Dust. Rain drops coalesce around dust particles. These particles can bring various nutrients as the dust can be old skin cells (full of NP and a little K oke: ) or volcanic ash (full of minerals: Mg, Ca, Fe etc...).



I don't think this concept applies in the tropical rainforests. There just is not enough dust and too much rainfall. Somehow an orchid must get a lot of nutrients in a short time to grow new growth. 
Rainfall here in the mountains measures 0ppm and streams measure barely 10ppm so nutrients must come from another source rather than dust delivered by water.



> 2. Trees are really good at catching the rain... and therefore also of dust. So trees are very good at gather nutrients.



Trees tend to shed water and nutrients to their drip line and not down their trunks or on their limbs where orchids grow.

And if trees catch a lot of nutrients why are tropical soils so poor in nutrients?



> 3. Trees harbour insects, birds, fairies etc... Which will leave behind little packets of poo which are very good sources of N and P.



This used to be my favorite point and it is valid. But the insects get a huge amount of their food from moss and lichens and that is what they poop on the orchid roots.....don't kill insects.



> Therefore, an orchid in a tree is well supplied with nutrients and the hose pipe would do a very good job of washing all this nutrition away if there weren't some mosses and lichens to hold onto it.



I see so many trees here that support orchids but when I look up I see only sky. The tree is not delivering nutrients by rain runoff to these plants, nor are leaves falling and collecting around the roots. 
So far the only logical source is directly from the moss, lichens and tree bark. There is no reason to dismiss the possibility that orchid roots get nutrients directly from the bark of the host tree. Maybe that makes them parasitic?



> Mosses and stuff could be correlative with a healthy pot and not be the cause of the healthy pot.



Agreed. All parts work together to complete the whole. That is why we need to figure out the correct artificial fertilizer to replace the missing parts in our pots.



> Surely an experiment can be performed to test this (there is ample moss in your pig's forest),



We would need to know if the moss is a nutrient supplying species to make the experiment valid. If the plants grew better it would prove that moss supplied nutrients but if the plants grew poorly then we would have to question the moss species. To do the experiment the forest moss must be known to exist with orchids.


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## Stone (Aug 18, 2013)

Its great to see activity in SOC again:clap:
I absolutely agree that fertilizer should always come dead last on the list of things to get right when you are setting up for growing orchids. The environment is 95% (or more) of the equation. But when you have done everything you possibly can (or can afford) to get the environment right, then the feeding is the only thing left you have to play with.

Firstly, if your growing rothschildianum and micranthum in the same greenhouse, one is going to suffer, it has to. So there's your first limiting factor, so we can't expect optimum results for everything we try to grow. The ultimate would be to specialize in just one species and do that to perfection but who's going to do that??

As for nutrients, every species is probably different so how on earth can we perfect that aspect? Again we cannot so I beleive that in the absense of irrefutible information ( and unless we feed each species a different formula ) that we should probably settle on a balance of the 2 N forms together with an organic source of N and (agruably) medium to lowish K, low P together with all the other requirements and use that on everything at a very dilute strength. At least until we know more. Thats what I do unless some shows me I'm wrong :wink::evil:


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## Stone (Aug 18, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> > 3. Trees harbour insects, birds, fairies etc... Which will leave behind little packets of poo which are very good sources of N and P.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## gonewild (Aug 18, 2013)

> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > Its great to see activity in SOC again:clap:
> ...


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## gonewild (Aug 18, 2013)

Stone said:


> TyroneGenade said:
> 
> 
> > But actually there was an experiment where some branches supporting various epiphytes in a rainforest were regularly sprayed with a P solution. Growth was explosive so P is definately a limiting factor in epiphyte communities.
> ...


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## Ray (Aug 18, 2013)

If I may be so bold...

Orchids are 90%-95% water, so that makes me think that the BEST thing you can do for your plants is give them an environment where they can be watered very frequently, and use very pure water to do so. Then, add a tiny amount of a complete nutrient, and you're about as close to hitting the mark as you can in a domesticated environment.


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## gonewild (Aug 18, 2013)

Ray said:


> If I may be so bold...
> 
> Orchids are 90%-95% water, so that makes me think that the BEST thing you can do for your plants is give them an environment where they can be watered very frequently, and use very pure water to do so. Then, add a tiny amount of a complete nutrient, and you're about as close to hitting the mark as you can in a domesticated environment.



100% agree. Moisture is the most important factor. Ideal conditions allow for humid air and frequent wetting of leaves and media. 

Now let me be bold too... 
Under these ideal conditions moss and lichens will grow and produce nutrients for the orchids.
(Now how do we keep the moss from growing on the kitchen cabinets?  )


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## TyroneGenade (Aug 18, 2013)

Ray said:


> Orchids are 90%-95% water, so that makes me think that the BEST thing you can do for your plants is give them an environment where they can be watered very frequently, and use very pure water to do so. Then, add a tiny amount of a complete nutrient, and you're about as close to hitting the mark as you can in a domesticated environment.



Our minds tend to think in terms of absolutes: 10 ppm vs 100 ppm instead of time: 10 ppm every week vs 100 ppm once a month. The real issue is nutrient supply, i.e. whether the required nutrients are supplied constantly to allow for constant growth. In which case, 1 ppm every day could be better than 10 ppm once a week. 

This nutrient supply issue continues to vex planted aquarium folks. You can find lush, algae free, plant growth in Amazon basin with virtually zero NPK but if you try maintain an aquarium with anything less than a constant 10 ppm N and you get an algal mess. WHY??? :sob: Aquariums seem even more sensitive to CO2 levels (too low ==> algae!) which isn't the case in the wild... Of course, in the wild the water has a near constant supply of 0.00...1 ppm N and constant low CO2 levels during the day.

Part of the virtue of mediums such as agra and stone is that you can keep them wet and the plants aerated all the time. In SH you can keep a constant supply of low concentration nutrients as well. Of course, not everyone has success with SH so there is a lot more going on than simply nutrient and water supply.

Getting back to moss: limuhead, do you think you could rescue some moss from a plants that are doing well to put with seedlings?

As regards your organic fish emulsion, it is already low PK and if you look closely it has a good supply of calcium and magnesium. I was very surprised when I had a look at my Seagrow and did the math (now long forgotten) and discovered that it approximates the K-light very closely.


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## gonewild (Aug 18, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> Our minds tend to think in terms of absolutes: 10 ppm vs 100 ppm instead of time: 10 ppm every week vs 100 ppm once a month. The real issue is nutrient supply, i.e. whether the required nutrients are supplied constantly to allow for constant growth. In which case, 1 ppm every day could be better than 10 ppm once a week.



Or 0.1ppm constant 24/7.
Do orchids take in nutrients during the day or night?
Or do orchids take in nutrients constantly like fuel to a fire?



> As regards your organic fish emulsion, it is already low PK and if you look closely it has a good supply of calcium and magnesium. I was very surprised when I had a look at my Seagrow and did the math (now long forgotten) and discovered that it approximates the K-light very closely.



Don't let the big chemical companies hear you say that. 
(You know the guys that have done all the trials that show we need to use huge amounts of potassium and phosphates and just happen to be the ones that sell it to us.)


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## keithrs (Aug 18, 2013)

Now let me be bold..... 

If you have perfect conditions, perfect watering schedule, moss growing, potting media should be extremely coarse to nonexistent.

I also have to say that humidity and watering will trump condition to a degree.

Now that we have determined how to ideally grow an orchid. What is the ideal watering schedule? I water most my plant more then I should because of my dry contions, but I water daily in the summer. Im hooked to a timer sprinkler system now... Thank God! I would spend hour and half watering after work. Ill water for 10 mins wait 30 min then water for 3 mins every 15 for two hours in late afternoon. That about a total of about 30 min of watering daily.


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## gonewild (Aug 18, 2013)

keithrs said:


> Now let me be bold.....
> 
> If you have perfect conditions,
> 
> What is the ideal watering schedule?



oke: Depends on the species of orchid!

Under perfect conditions....
Set your timer to mist the plants one minute every hour.
Under perfect conditions the plants and media will not be over watered and beautiful moss will grow on everything.


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## Rick (Aug 18, 2013)

limuhead said:


> I am a carpenter by trade. I know that there are more than a few scientific minds that contribute to this forum on a regular basis. Being a person that likes to keep it simple would my organic fish emulsion (5-1-1) and the right combination of dolomite and Epsom salts give me similar results as K-lite type formulation?



There's definitely Ca, Mg and micros in the fish emulsion too, so most likely you can (or are) able to get similar results to K lite. 

Adding the fish emulsion to your local drinking/stream/well water would probably ensure that you end up with a good mix of Ca and Mg without messing with dolomite and epsom salts.

A good drinking water will have very little N P K, but will often have plenty of the other good things that plants need. But as frequently pointed out that "need" is tiny compared to what we've learned (incorrectly applied) from agriculture science.

Lots of people have been sending me analysis of the drinking water, to determine a good balance of whatever fert mix and/or individual compounds to add. I'm getting my best results in 13 years of growing just adding a tiny "spit" of feeding to my daily watering routine, instead of the old "weakly weekly" routine. And using a fraction of the fert I used to use per week.


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## Rick (Aug 18, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> In which case, 1 ppm every day could be better than 10 ppm once a week.
> 
> This nutrient supply issue continues to vex planted aquarium folks. You can find lush, algae free, plant growth in Amazon basin with virtually zero NPK but if you try maintain an aquarium with anything less than a constant 10 ppm N and you get an algal mess. WHY??? :sob: Aquariums seem even more sensitive to CO2 levels (too low ==> algae!) which isn't the case in the wild... Of course, in the wild the water has a near constant supply of 0.00...1 ppm N and constant low CO2 levels during the day.
> 
> ...



:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:


YES! And this works great for orchids too even if you stick them on bark plaques or in pots of bark mixes.


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## Trithor (Aug 18, 2013)

If I am reading the above correctly, there are a number of factors which we are considering. This all goes back to basics, and I am sure a discussion we have all had with novice growers at our respective Orchid Societies, namely the various factors which we need to attend to in order to successfully grow orchids (or any plants for that matter). We are not all as lucky as those living and growing in Hawaii to have most of them taken care of naturally, so we need to attend to each factor individually, but still being aware that they are mutually dependant and not exclusive. So factors such as temperature, light, air movement, humidity, potting medium, water quantity and quality, and feeding (or not). These are all inter-dependant and a change in one will require a change in the others. I have always believed that no amount of tweeking of feeding will be met with any success if the other factors are not in line. I always advise the novices to first worry about those factors which are easy to adjust before trying to adjust those that are not. Again it goes back to a multitude of threads, no sense in tweeking fertilizer if you don't know what your water composition is. I firmly believe that water quality is something most of us are aware of as being of paramount importance, but many choose to ignore for some reason in favour of changing potting mixes and tweeking chemical additives.


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## Rick (Aug 18, 2013)

keithrs said:


> If you have perfect conditions, perfect watering schedule, moss growing, potting media should be extremely coarse to nonexistent.
> 
> I also have to say that humidity and watering will trump condition to a degree.
> 
> Now that we have determined how to ideally grow an orchid. What is the ideal watering schedule? I water most my plant more then I should because of my dry contions, but I water daily in the summer. Im hooked to a timer sprinkler system now... Thank God! I would spend hour and half watering after work. Ill water for 10 mins wait 30 min then water for 3 mins every 15 for two hours in late afternoon. That about a total of about 30 min of watering daily.



Size of collection is a concern in figuring out time constraints, but I spend about an hour a day watering/pruning/feeding/....my orchids. I use a pump sprayer, and kind of take care of all three simultaneously. Also during that hour of watering/poking, I identify conditions that will take more serious time (for the weekend), plus enjoying whatever is flowering. But my collection fits in a 12X12 GH so if it was bigger, then time expenditure would go up, and I'd never get to work. 

In some ways, the orchid growing is the fun/passion in my life, so I consider the watering aspect as much of an excuse to spend time appreciating and keeping tabs on the plants rather than a chore that gets in the way of some other aspect of growing. I really can't see how or why I would come up with a set watering schedule to account for all the variables of my growing conditions, or to increase the efficiency of management so I can spend more time at work and less with the plants.


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## Rick (Aug 18, 2013)

Trithor said:


> no sense in tweeking fertilizer if you don't know what your water composition is.



Yup, but that's why so many have inadvertently gone to RO or other pure water sources rather than looking into what their local water source is capable of providing.


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## gonewild (Aug 18, 2013)

Rick said:


> I really can't see how or why I would come up with a set watering schedule to account for all the variables of my growing conditions, or to increase the efficiency of management so I can spend more time at work and less with the plants.



Then I suggest you water at least twice a day. One hour less work and one hour more passion. :clap:


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## Trithor (Aug 18, 2013)

Rick said:


> Size of collection is a concern in figuring out time constraints, but I spend about an hour a day watering/pruning/feeding/....my orchids. I use a pump sprayer, and kind of take care of all three simultaneously. Also during that hour of watering/poking, I identify conditions that will take more serious time (for the weekend), plus enjoying whatever is flowering. But my collection fits in a 12X12 GH so if it was bigger, then time expenditure would go up, and I'd never get to work.
> 
> In some ways, the orchid growing is the fun/passion in my life, so I consider the watering aspect as much of an excuse to spend time appreciating and keeping tabs on the plants rather than a chore that gets in the way of some other aspect of growing. I really can't see how or why I would come up with a set watering schedule to account for all the variables of my growing conditions, or to increase the efficiency of management so I can spend more time at work and less with the plants.



Agreed, my problem is that without some automation, when I return home from a trip, I will find that I have a lot of room for new plants, and a lot less space on the compost heap.


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## Rick (Aug 18, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> This nutrient supply issue continues to vex planted aquarium folks. You can find lush, algae free, plant growth in Amazon basin with virtually zero NPK but if you try maintain an aquarium with anything less than a constant 10 ppm N and you get an algal mess.



Not only an algae mess but sick/dead fish.

I just saw (another) sustainability program that uses water from a fish aquaculture application as a sole source of water/nutrients for crop production.

Yes you can effectively grow plants on water that has fish living in it, without further supplementation. And if the fish are alive and healthy, then I can guarantee that NPK are going to be what orchid growers would consider "extremely low" compared to the fert concentrations we have historically applied.


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## Rick (Aug 18, 2013)

gonewild said:


> Then I suggest you water at least twice a day. One hour less work and one hour more passion. :clap:



That's a good dream for sure Lance:wink:


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## Rick (Aug 18, 2013)

Trithor said:


> Agreed, my problem is that without some automation, when I return home from a trip, I will find that I have a lot of room for new plants, and a lot less space on the compost heap.



Understood

Besides the WET wall, I also have a fogger tied to a humidistat. And wife/friends to cover in my prolonged absences:wink:

Extended trips are rare for me, and cause other areas of consternation

For instance "you love your orchids more than your grandkids"!!!


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## Trithor (Aug 18, 2013)

Rick said:


> Not only an algae mess but sick/dead fish.
> 
> I just saw (another) sustainability program that uses water from a fish aquaculture application as a sole source of water/nutrients for crop production.
> 
> Yes you can effectively grow plants on water that has fish living in it, without further supplementation. And if the fish are alive and healthy, then I can guarantee that NPK are going to be what orchid growers would consider "extremely low" compared to the fert concentrations we have historically applied.



I have started a trial 'aquaponic' program up at the farm. I have been trying to set up a system that will provide my staff with a source of protein and vegetable. We culture 'duck-weed' in a water reservoir, this water overflows into the fish dam (tilapia), and the duckweed is fed to the tilapia. The water from the fish dam percolates through a SH grow bed (currently chillis), and is returned to the water reservoir. Not a great success at the moment. The chillis are not thriving, although they are growing, and birds eat my fish before they grow large enough to warrant me eating.


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## Trithor (Aug 18, 2013)

Rick said:


> Understood
> 
> Besides the WET wall, I also have a fogger tied to a humidistat. And wife/friends to cover in my prolonged absences:wink:
> 
> ...



......and the problem with that is?:rollhappy:


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## Rick (Aug 18, 2013)

Trithor said:


> ......and the problem with that is?:rollhappy:



Rolling pin to the Head:sob:


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## gonewild (Aug 18, 2013)

Trithor said:


> I have started a trial 'aquaponic' program up at the farm. I have been trying to set up a system that will provide my staff with a source of protein and vegetable. We culture 'duck-weed' in a water reservoir, this water overflows into the fish dam (tilapia), and the duckweed is fed to the tilapia. The water from the fish dam percolates through a SH grow bed (currently chillis), and is returned to the water reservoir. Not a great success at the moment. The chillis are not thriving, although they are growing, and birds eat my fish before they grow large enough to warrant me eating.



Need a croc to eat birds and add them to the water fertility.


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## Rick (Aug 18, 2013)

Trithor said:


> I have started a trial 'aquaponic' program up at the farm. I have been trying to set up a system that will provide my staff with a source of protein and vegetable. We culture 'duck-weed' in a water reservoir, this water overflows into the fish dam (tilapia), and the duckweed is fed to the tilapia. The water from the fish dam percolates through a SH grow bed (currently chillis), and is returned to the water reservoir. Not a great success at the moment. The chillis are not thriving, although they are growing, and birds eat my fish before they grow large enough to warrant me eating.



Dang. Need birds that poop without eating fish!! Then you need to worry about snakes and turtles (or crocs?!?!)


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## Trithor (Aug 18, 2013)

I just need to refine the system. I think I need a larger biomass of fish to SH grow bed. The problem is that a small pilot hobby project has an alarming tendency to become a venture which makes you realize that it would have been better to have simply continued buying chicken and veg for the staff. Some projects are best left for NGO's and Startrek.
(Fortunately I have no crocs to contend with, but snakes, birds and genets take their toll)


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## TyroneGenade (Aug 18, 2013)

Trithor said:


> I just need to refine the system.



Your mistake is using chillies. These plants want to be cool which is hard in the African sun. May I suggest tomatoes or zucchini? Beans may also work (high in protein).

You need to put some mesh or chicken wire of the dams to keep the birds out. The problem with this solution is that leaves etc... accumulate on top and make an ugly mess. Deeper ponds are another solution. Tilapia remain mostly at the bottom of the pond. I would ditch the duckweed (horrible stuff!) and switch to kitchen scraps.

Back to orchid fertilizer: I would continue to use the Seagrow if I weren't not thinking about growing indoors (bad smell...). So I am now planning to get K-light from Ray as well as Agra etc... I have a nice wide windowsill which is North facing (and one which is South facing for winter). (Ray, if you are back from holiday let me know!) I'm in Iowa so the tap water is liquid rock... Not sure how much K-light to add to that... But I would be spraying it on one day and then the next day spraying plane water and then just alternate like that and see how it goes. In the end, the plant will tell you whether it is happy or not.


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## gonewild (Aug 18, 2013)

Look closely at the bark of the trees you are putting orchids on and you will see Lichen as well as moss. 


The white stuff on the tree bark is Lichen.




limuhead said:


> Dendrobium cuthbersonii that was all but dead. Stuck it in the moss on the Macnut tree. It had zero roots, and was losing leaves...
> 
> Less than 3 months later it has a bud developing and is locked in...


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## Trithor (Aug 18, 2013)

Do you generate a lot of kitchen scraps by some chance? Chillies seem to grow just fine in Mexico, I assume it is not too different from Africa climatically? Chilies grow well in open ground, but not so well under my aquaponics. I assume you have never tried to grow tomatoes in Africa (as opposed to Cape Town)? You might find that monkeys, antelope and nearly every other African wild animal would prefere them to chillies! 
Chilies were a trial, I would not expect my staff to survive on a diet of chilies and fish alone, even if the thought makes me smile a bit.:rollhappy:


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## Rick (Aug 18, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> Your mistake is using chillies.



They grow pretty good in the desert SW of the US (with appropriate water availability). That's probably comparable to African sun!

I was thinking he should try Disas if the water was cool enough:rollhappy:


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## TyroneGenade (Aug 18, 2013)

Oops... Sorry, was thinking of peppers.

I understand your problem with tomatoes. Hmm...


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## NYEric (Aug 18, 2013)

There probably is a best fertilizer but it is probably made from and extract of Dali Lama poop!  I would love to grow all my orchids naturally , on moss and lichen in the trees, but I dont live anywhere that that is possible. Therefore, I must supplement with man made products.


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## gonewild (Aug 18, 2013)

NYEric said:


> There probably is a best fertilizer but it is probably made from and extract of Dali Lama poop!  I would love to grow all my orchids naturally , on moss and lichen in the trees, but I dont live anywhere that that is possible. Therefore, I must supplement with man made products.



That is why we need to figure out what the best fertilizer is and not just assume the old ones are the best. There is no way to replicate Nature because there are too many variables. So we need to figure out what is the best substitute. Ricks use of the leaf litter ratios are probably correct. But if we consider the living moss and lichens there may be some tweaking to do.


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## Stone (Aug 19, 2013)

gonewild said:


> That is why we need to figure out what the best fertilizer is and not just assume the old ones are the best. There is no way to replicate Nature because there are too many variables. So we need to figure out what is the best substitute. Ricks use of the leaf litter ratios are probably correct. But if we consider the living moss and lichens there may be some tweaking to do.



Leaf litter is a good start but you must also take into account nutrients from rain, wind deposits, soil and rock minerals, N fixing bacteria and algae, exudations from living leaves including moss and lichens, mycorrhiza and other fungi, dead soil animals, various droppings, nitrifying bacteria, the effect of neigbouring plants, etc. so off you go Lance.....figure it out


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## gonewild (Aug 19, 2013)

Stone said:


> Leaf litter is a good start but you must also take into account nutrients from rain, wind deposits, soil and rock minerals, N fixing bacteria and algae, exudations from living leaves including moss and lichens, mycorrhiza and other fungi, dead soil animals, various droppings, nitrifying bacteria, the effect of neigbouring plants, etc.



Leaf litter is a way to measure all the things you list except soil and rock deposits, but epiphytes grow above the soil and rock. Everything else that comes from above winds up in the litter. But the leaf litter may actually be low in content since all the epiphytes above have absorbed a lot of incoming nutrients. The open question is how accurately the leaf litter measurements compare to the actual root area of the orchids growing above.



> so off you go Lance.....figure it out



I already have.


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## Brabantia (Aug 19, 2013)

Not later that yesterday I saw at the aunt's of my wife splendid Cymbidiums (foliage without any stain and in very good health). They are cultivated in some humus of leaf sieved (under beeches). I asked him how she prepared this substrate here is its method: move aside the upper coat of leaves, collect the coat of material which is under this one and sieve it on the 8 mm sieve. She never gives any fertilyser. Knowing the voracity of Cymbidiums this organic matter must certainly be very rich in nitrogen (mineral and organic forms) and other necessary elements. ... to be tried! 
Remark: she added no dolomie, no bark, no sponge rock, no perlite ... nothing, nothing else pure leaves humus!


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## NYEric (Aug 19, 2013)

gonewild said:


> ..I already have.


Send me a sample; but if it turns out to be Dali Lama poop you're going to get it!!


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## gonewild (Aug 19, 2013)

NYEric said:


> Send me a sample; but if it turns out to be Dali Lama poop you're going to get it!!



Dali Lama lives is Asia, down here we have the Incas. No poop.

Poop is junk food for orchids, we need to feed them a natural diet based on good nutrition. Stop obesity!


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## Trithor (Aug 19, 2013)

Brabantia said:


> Not later that yesterday I saw at the aunt's of my wife splendid Cymbidiums (foliage without any stain and in very good health). They are cultivated in some humus of leaf sieved (under beeches). I asked him how she prepared this substrate here is its method: move aside the upper coat of leaves, collect the coat of material which is under this one and sieve it on the 8 mm sieve. She never gives any fertilyser. Knowing the voracity of Cymbidiums this organic matter must certainly be very rich in nitrogen (mineral and organic forms) and other necessary elements. ... to be tried!
> Remark: she added no dolomie, no bark, no sponge rock, no perlite ... nothing, nothing else pure leaves humus!



In Frederick Boyles' book, 'The Culture of Greenhouse Orchids - Old System and New' 1902, he describes a potting medium used in Belgium and Netherlands as being exactly this, and goes on to say that the plants do exceptionally well in it. If I recall correctly, he also indicated that results were very different from one leaf type to another. I will need to look through my books to find the passage


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## Trithor (Aug 19, 2013)

PS. what happened to 'Limu'?


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## gonewild (Aug 19, 2013)

Trithor said:


> PS. what happened to 'Limu'?



He took a hike.
Probably gathering all the moss along the trail.


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## Stone (Aug 19, 2013)

Brabantia said:


> Not later that yesterday I saw at the aunt's of my wife splendid Cymbidiums (foliage without any stain and in very good health). They are cultivated in some humus of leaf sieved (under beeches). I asked him how she prepared this substrate here is its method: move aside the upper coat of leaves, collect the coat of material which is under this one and sieve it on the 8 mm sieve. She never gives any fertilyser. Knowing the voracity of Cymbidiums this organic matter must certainly be very rich in nitrogen (mineral and organic forms) and other necessary elements. ... to be tried!
> Remark: she added no dolomie, no bark, no sponge rock, no perlite ... nothing, nothing else pure leaves humus!



Does she use what is left in the sieve or what falls through?
I think good leaf mold is very good. For cyms which can fill a big pot with roots very quickly and ''eat'' all the humus there is probably no problem, but for paphs which grow very slowly, if you use 100% leaves, it can turn to mud before the roots fill the pot. I thought about trying leaf mold mixed with big peices of polysytrene to keep it open for longer. But now I'm using chopped oak leaves and moss at about 10-15% with bark, charcoal and some sand and the paphs seem to love that and you don't have to worry about feeding so much. Always experimenting!


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## Rick (Aug 19, 2013)

I set up a compot of Paph calosum var sublaeve seedlings in a mix of mostly shredded fall leaves (~80% by volume) with some sand a little sponge rock, and charcoal. They have been in it for about 2 years and get no fertilizer (other than what drips or overspray from everything over and near them). 

The mix volume did decline after a year, so last fall/winter I shredded a fresh batch of leaves to add on top of the old stuff. Shredding is by the food processor. 

I also set up a few individual plants in 2" pots with a CHC mix, and set up another compot in a bark mix that was given feeding (first weekly at 50-100ppm N, but now almost daily at 1-5ppm N.

The compot of leaf mix with no food is ahead of the bark compot. But the bark mix is starting to catch up since they've been getting the dilute ration. The individual pots are a mix of way better than the leaf litter compot, and about average for either of the compots.

The same time I set up the calosums, I set up a 4" pot with a common Liparis species (viridiflorum I think). Also no fert. It grows like crazy but hasn't bloomed even though it puts of lots of sheaths. I started giving it the Mg phosphate mix, and it got a lot greener, and bigger, but still no blooms yet.

My leaf litter is a mix of mostly two species of oak, some black locust, and some poplar.


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## TyroneGenade (Aug 19, 2013)

I was mixing leaf litter into stone and that seem to work OK. I would mix equal volumes of leaf and stone. The leaf litter compacted a lot. It does break down to mud very quickly and think this would need to be repeated yearly. Growth was very good and water retention was also very high---I was quite surprised.


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## Stone (Aug 19, 2013)

Rick said:


> > Shredding is by the food processor.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## paphioboy (Aug 20, 2013)

> Poop is junk food for orchids, we need to feed them a natural diet based on good nutrition. Stop obesity!



Obesity is good (for plants)..:evil: Goat and chicken poop is the way to go (for me).. but not regular.. 3-4 times a year


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## SlipperKing (Aug 20, 2013)

Lance,
*My question is why are there lichens growing on or near every wild orchid I look at and never on orchids growing in pots?*
You probably already touched on this. We have "dead" bark in our pots not live trees.


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## Brabantia (Aug 20, 2013)

@Stone


Stone said:


> Does she use what is left in the sieve or what falls through?


She use what is falls through.


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## gonewild (Aug 20, 2013)

SlipperKing said:


> Lance,
> *My question is why are there lichens growing on or near every wild orchid I look at and never on orchids growing in pots?*
> You probably already touched on this. We have "dead" bark in our pots not live trees.



Lichens do grow on dead surfaces. If we could make the environment correct lichens would grow and then we would have the perfect environment for orchids.
I think the main reason lichens don't grow in our environments is because lichens are extremely sensitive to air pollution.


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## Trithor (Aug 20, 2013)

gonewild said:


> Lichens do grow on dead surfaces. If we could make the environment correct lichens would grow and then we would have the perfect environment for orchids.
> I think the main reason lichens don't grow in our environments is because lichens are extremely sensitive to air pollution.



And I would imagine even more sensitive to water pollution


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## gonewild (Aug 20, 2013)

Trithor said:


> And I would imagine even more sensitive to water pollution



If that is true (probably) then when we fertilize we probably prevent Lichens from growing.


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## NYEric (Aug 20, 2013)

I think that on the evolutionary scale we have been looking at lichens incorrectly. In order it should be algaes, mosses, than lichens. If I could grow all my plants in mixture heavier in live moss i might be able to get lichens to grow. Unfortunately in an indoor environment the efficient break down of media leads to all types of fungal and insect, and snail issues.


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## Trithor (Aug 20, 2013)

I too wish I could get lichen to grow, as the more I research them, the more I believe that they are a missing link in my growing. I am not too sure how they will help my paphs, but them aside, the rest of my collection could do with a bit of help at the moment! I am sure that council water, fertilizer and all the chemicals we throw at our plants have a long term effect on preventing any lichen growth.


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## Brabantia (Aug 20, 2013)

This discussion about lichens remember me my thread of 05/06 this year (_Here_). On the first picture on the right side is this lichens?


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## TyroneGenade (Aug 20, 2013)

No, I think its a liverwort.


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## naoki (Aug 20, 2013)

Well, lichens probably grow too slowly to be any practical use for the cultivation of orchids. At least the ones which I'm familiar with from arctic, alpine, tundra, and boreal forests. I wonder if tropical lichens which Lance is talking about have a higher metabolism. Do they grow quickly in tropics? Here is some info of culturing lichen: http://lichenlovers.org/lichen_growth_formula.phtml
In pots, they get easily outcompeted by moss etc.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Aug 20, 2013)

Has anyone tried mounting an orchid on lichen covered bark? In terms of pollution, lichens had been extinct in NYC for years. As air quality improved, lichens came back. Now there are loads of trees in my neighborhood with lichens on the trunk.


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## gonewild (Aug 20, 2013)

naoki said:


> Well, lichens probably grow too slowly to be any practical use for the cultivation of orchids. At least the ones which I'm familiar with from arctic, alpine, tundra, and boreal forests. I wonder if tropical lichens which Lance is talking about have a higher metabolism. Do they grow quickly in tropics? Here is some info of culturing lichen: http://lichenlovers.org/lichen_growth_formula.phtml
> In pots, they get easily outcompeted by moss etc.



Tropical lichens grow very quickly. At least some species do. I see lichens on leaves of plants that I know are less than 6 months old.


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## gonewild (Aug 20, 2013)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> Has anyone tried mounting an orchid on lichen covered bark? In terms of pollution, lichens had been extinct in NYC for years. As air quality improved, lichens came back. Now there are loads of trees in my neighborhood with lichens on the trunk.



That's pretty cool about the lichens coming back after the air cleaned up!


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## TyroneGenade (Aug 20, 2013)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> Has anyone tried mounting an orchid on lichen covered bark?



I got some cork bark with lichen on. I was told to bleach it before mounting my Tolumnia on it. So I did but two chunks never got bleached as well as the others. Best root developming: on the bleached cork. I think the lichen can be a barrier to root development but this doesn't mean having them in proximity to the plants isn't beneficial in nutrient supply.


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## Trithor (Aug 21, 2013)

At our previous house, I planted a number of the trees with cold tolerant orchids. The Madagascar peppercorn had loads of lichen on it. The orchids planted on that tree grew way faster than any of the others on any other tree. I had a number of clones of Laelia anceps which eventualy were way larger and floriferous than the mother plants which were in the greenhouse.


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## limuhead (Aug 22, 2013)

I am really 'lichen' some of the posts in this thread...


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## NYEric (Aug 22, 2013)




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## Rick (Aug 25, 2013)

Trithor said:


> At our previous house, I planted a number of the trees with cold tolerant orchids. The Madagascar peppercorn had loads of lichen on it. The orchids planted on that tree grew way faster than any of the others on any other tree. I had a number of clones of Laelia anceps which eventualy were way larger and floriferous than the mother plants which were in the greenhouse.



And how often were you feeding the orchids outside on the peppercorn tree (as opposed to the plants in the GH)?


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## Rick (Aug 25, 2013)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> Has anyone tried mounting an orchid on lichen covered bark? In terms of pollution, lichens had been extinct in NYC for years. As air quality improved, lichens came back. Now there are loads of trees in my neighborhood with lichens on the trunk.



I mount a lot of stuff without doing much cleaning off of whatever lichen/moss is already on it. (Usually just try to power wash off the dirt and loose stuff). 

I don't usually use pieces very thick in lichen (as opposed to mosses), and I haven't noticed anything in particular where the lichens have taken off. But I'll poke around the mounted stuff and see what I find. 

I was cleaning off our deck and just pitched a load of wooden deck furniture with luxuriant lichen growth with no moss growth. I didn't think to try putting any orchids on them


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## Trithor (Aug 25, 2013)

Rick said:


> And how often were you feeding the orchids outside on the peppercorn tree (as opposed to the plants in the GH)?



I never fed the plants in the peppercorn. I actually never gave it much thought until recently. The plants growing naturally were bigger, greener and flowered more often. Our winters are very dry, so the only interference in the natural course was to hose them down every now and again in the dry season.


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## Paul (Aug 25, 2013)

Hi,
Now that I'm feeding only 15-20ppm N, a plant like kolopakingii mature growth in less than a year... growths over a meter large and leaves wide as my hand...


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## Rick (Aug 25, 2013)

Paul said:


> Hi,
> Now that I'm feeding only 15-20ppm N, a plant like kolopakingii mature growth in less than a year... growths over a meter large and leaves wide as my hand...



Pretty crazy isn't it.


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## Rick (Aug 25, 2013)

Well I couldn't find any obvious lichens still growing on any of my mounts.

There were a few gray-green smudges here and there, that I think are new.

Maybe you can only get the lichens to kick in on starvation diets.

Maybe I should try another experiment and spray some lichen covered twigs with fert out in the backyard and see if they crap out.


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## Paul (Aug 25, 2013)

Rick said:


> Pretty crazy isn't it.



yes and last year, when I only had the time to water with pure municipal water (same EC and pH than the water I use for feeding now), so with NO fertilizing, plants were really decreasing in size and more sensitive to any disease.


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## gonewild (Aug 25, 2013)

Paul said:


> Hi,
> Now that I'm feeding only 15-20ppm N, a plant like kolopakingii mature growth in less than a year... growths over a meter large and leaves wide as my hand...



What nutrient ratio are you using?


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## gonewild (Aug 25, 2013)

Rick said:


> Well I couldn't find any obvious lichens still growing on any of my mounts.
> 
> There were a few gray-green smudges here and there, that I think are new.
> 
> ...



Yes try that.
It may be that they are sensitive to certain chemical excess in water.
It may also be that the lichen species that exist in your are don't grow under the environment you maintain for your orchids.

Spray some lichens with msu and some others with K-lite and see which decline fastest.


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## keithrs (Aug 25, 2013)

I have some lichen growing on some mounts. I'm not sure that they get much of any thing from it. All my plants are feed a modified K-Lite @ about 15ppm N





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## Rick (Aug 25, 2013)

gonewild said:


> Spray some lichens with msu and some others with K-lite and see which decline fastest.



All in the name of science hey:wink:


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## Rick (Aug 25, 2013)

Keith has the lichen growth increased or decreased since you set up the mount?

It looks like its been there long enough for a few new roots to either go through it or over the top of it.


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## Rick (Aug 25, 2013)

gonewild said:


> What nutrient ratio are you using?



http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28485&page=3

Paul appears to be using some version of a low K diet.


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## Paul (Aug 26, 2013)

yes, but Calcium is supplied in the municipal water (50/50 with rain water) and in the media (very little dolomie). And N is half N03- and half NH4+.


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## keithrs (Aug 26, 2013)

Rick said:


> Keith has the lichen growth increased or decreased since you set up the mount?
> 
> It looks like its been there long enough for a few new roots to either go through it or over the top of it.



It's increased but by a small amount. Most of its dormant. There is a small amount that has grown on top of a root. The anceps has only been there for 1 year or so. I just cant keep the humidity high enough is the summer months to sub stain growth. Most of it will start the regrow in the winter.


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## gonewild (Aug 26, 2013)

Rick said:


> All in the name of science hey:wink:



No, in the name of Horticulture!


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