# Anyone using CO2?



## Jim Toomey (Nov 30, 2008)

Hello all,
Anyone using CO2?

Please describe your experiences; your setup and equipment you use or recommend.

Pitfalls to avoid?

I am thinking of using bottled CO2 in my hobby-house (500 SQ FT) hooked up to a monitor/controller (maybe C.A.P. brand) set to 1500 ppm.

I am thinking bottled CO2 would be better than the propane CO2 generators. While I have propane for my heater available, I am concerned about the added heat buildup in the summer that will just get vented out every-time the exhaust fans kick in (and they would kick in much more frequently in my small hobby-house due to the heat from the flames).
I am interested to know after the expense would you do it again?
Are the results significant enough?
Thanks for your time,
AHAB


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## Ernie (Nov 30, 2008)

Interesting. I'm curious to hear some responses. I have used yeast CO2 generators in planted aquariums, but haven't gone that extra mile for land plants. 

-Ernie


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## Kyle (Nov 30, 2008)

A guy in my OS used compressed CO2 for cooling. Not sure of the details.

Kyle


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## Rick (Nov 30, 2008)

I don't use it in my GH but at work we use it to regulate water pH in toxicity tests.

We use bottled CO2 in conjunction with a monitor/controller.

The setup is in a relatively well sealed room about 8X8X8. At concentrations appropriate for horticulture use the 25 lb bottle will last at least a month in this room.

In water with normal buffering content 800 to 1500 ppm will regulate pH effectively. But I really can't give you any hands on info on how well orchids will grow in this setup.


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## Jim Toomey (Nov 30, 2008)

I recently had a small greenhouse built (for paph's of course) and now I'm looking into the limiting factors of plant growth. I'm trying to tie in information from all types of agriculture. 

From what I've read CO2 is one of the limiting factors in the plants growth that I have not addressed.
So I'm trying to find out if anyone else has had success with adding CO2 to their growing space. I am looking to see if it is viable, practical, and cost effective. 
Thanks,
AHAB 
(nickname from the slightly obsessive compulsive captain in Moby Dick)


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## Candace (Nov 30, 2008)

I would think you'd have to have a pretty airtight g.h. for CO2 release. If you've got an evap. cooler, shutters, door gaps etc. it would let the CO2 right out.


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## Ernie (Nov 30, 2008)

I recall Russ Vernon saying Eric Young Orchid Foundation uses CO2 generators? 

-Ernie


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## cnycharles (Dec 2, 2008)

one problem with co2 treatment with plants that are long-term growth is that research I don't have personally available is that when a plant is initially subjected to co2, it will grow more (very general statement, more involved). after a point, the plants' growth rate will slow to before as it gets 'used' to the higher gas content. if you are growing plants quickly and turning them over it might be a good idea if you can seal things up. when the co2 is being released you won't be able to vent or exchange internal/external gases. we have co2 generators at work (huge propane burners) and sensors for co2 levels that are useless for that use because of the need to keep things sealed when the gas is released. we use them for backup heat, but that's it.

there is more science to the explanation, but I haven't read or heard it for a number of years and haven't retained much of the info. I don't think it is really like an increase of fertilizer where you could have continued growth with more (as long as the plant is able to take it up and other environmental conditions are good, warm and humid with adequate moisture etc) that continues, growth will rise to a point but then settle and not increase any more.

I also think I remember that the best time to try it is during the night, but other than it being a time when the need for venting might be lower, I don't remember the reasons


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## Rick (Dec 2, 2008)

cnycharles said:


> I also think I remember that the best time to try it is during the night, but other than it being a time when the need for venting might be lower, I don't remember the reasons



That's not very intuitive since plants generate CO2 at night when there is no light, but need it during photosynthesis.

Most of the applications I've heard about were aquarium use, which is a much more sealed/closed system than most terrestrial and GH systems.

When I was purchasing the system for our lab, the vendor website had some how too for GH use testimonials and such. I bet you could get some results pretty fast by googling.


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## Ray (Dec 3, 2008)

There is a gentleman posting at the OrchidSource who is a believer. He has a CO2 sensor and automated regulator, so just like heat, it is possible to compensate for greenhouse losses fairly easily.

Assuming I can find a decent local source for bottled gas, I am planning on trying it myself. The much-less-expensive controller I will use is an on/off timer, set based upon calculations, but with some inexpensive testing, it can be "tuned" reasonably well.

I haven't given it a lot of thought, but I'm not sure I "buy" the bit about plants "getting used to" the higher gas content. It seems to me that plant growth is sort-of like a car engine - given enough fuel and air, it will run faster and faster, up to some design limit. That limit is genetics, and the "fuel" is likely the combination of chemical raw materials and light. If we increase only one component, I could picture that there might be an initial "surge", but then it simply could not keep up. Increase everything appropriately, and we might see "another gear" kick in.


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## Inverness (Dec 3, 2008)

*CO2 usage*

Here's some info that may answer many of the questions.

www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/crops/facts/00-077.htm

In commercial situations CO2 is normally only used when the greenhouse is closed up. Once the space requires venting or cooling the benefits disappear and costs skyrocket.

Ken B.


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## charlie c (Dec 3, 2008)

Inverness said:


> Here's some info that may answer many of the questions.
> 
> www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/crops/facts/00-077.htm
> 
> ...



Thanks Ken. 
An interesting read. And an informative site.

charlie c


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## Rick (Dec 3, 2008)

Ray said:


> There is a gentleman posting at the OrchidSource who is a believer. He has a CO2 sensor and automated regulator, so just like heat, it is possible to compensate for greenhouse losses fairly easily.
> 
> Assuming I can find a decent local source for bottled gas, I am planning on trying it myself. The much-less-expensive controller I will use is an on/off timer, set based upon calculations, but with some inexpensive testing, it can be "tuned" reasonably well.



Ray I've been amazed as to how little gas from the bottle will launch the CO2 concentration through the roof. I wouldn't administer by timer without any way to monitor and calibrate the CO2 concentration you want. In our small test room, the controler will pop on and off every few hours (depending on traffic in and out of the room), but it is generally only on for 30 seconds to a minute at a time.

We buy our gas from a company called Nexair, and I think they have branches all around the country. They supply all types of gases to industry and medical needs.


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## Jim Toomey (Dec 4, 2008)

Hey all,
Thank you very much for all of the feedback!
I read the article from Inverness, it really helps firm up that using CO2 is viable.
The controllers are expensive though, even on ebay they are around $500.
So I am still looking for an accurate CO2 monitor controller.

Any other pro's or con's?
Thanks,
AHAB


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## Inverness (Dec 4, 2008)

*CO2 Revisited*

Another comment on the CO2 usage. Unless all other cultural parameters are near optimum, there may not be as much benefit from elevated CO2 levels as expected. Also, plants that tend to grow rapidly, such as those that reach full flowering/vegetative maturity in as little as ten to twelve weeks (mums, points, lettuce) will often show good response to higher levels of CO2. Plants such as orchids, cacti, azaleas and others may well receive added benefit; but it won't be as of a striking nature. Saving a week in twelve is significant, saving a week or two over several years doesn't have the same appeal. It's possible that paring CO2 with eighteen hour days as provided by HID lighting and a uniformly warm growing temperature could induce a better growth response, but you'd have to decide how accelerated growth response compared with overall cost to achieve it.

Ken Brewer


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## Rick (Dec 4, 2008)

The system I use in our lab can be checked out at:


www.CAPcontrollers.com

we got the CO2 reulator 1 and the monitor/controller ppm3


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## Ray (Dec 6, 2008)

Rick,

The timer/controller I'm talking about has a regulator and flow meter, in addition to the timer-controlled solenoid.

The concept being that you calculate a flow needed for the desired level, and the timer opens the valve every 15 minutes for a set time period. There is a test kit to allow you to fine tune the settings. While not as precise or stable as the other systems, it's a lot cheaper!


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## Rick (Dec 6, 2008)

I understand Ray.

There's allot of tolerance in the system as far as the amount of CO2 that would be considered dangerous or an overdose, so you shouldn't have a safety issue if your calculations are wrong. 

You've been dosing all kinds of stuff for years now, so I can't imagine you'd have any problems figuring this out.

If your leakage (or plant uptake) is more (or less) than anticipated you wouldn't have any way of optimizing your dose. Kind of like driving a car blindfolded with only one speed set on the gas petal.

If you have a spare pH meter, and an aquarium air pump handy you can get a rough idea of how much CO2 is in the air, by how much the pH of a cup of water is depressed as the gas goes into the GH.

In our lab a cup of lab water with moderate hardness and alkalinity has a static background pH of about 8.1. Ambient CO2 about 500-600 ppm. When we pump the CO2 to 1500 ppm the pH will drop to about 7 - 7.2.

Before we got the controller, this is how we used to control CO2.


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## Ray (Dec 7, 2008)

Why is your ambient CO2 level so high? 300-400 is normal.


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## Rick (Dec 7, 2008)

Ray said:


> Why is your ambient CO2 level so high? 300-400 is normal.



Small closed room and people breathing.

It's kind of interesting how little it takes to make the meter jump up.


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## cnycharles (Dec 7, 2008)

I heard on the radio that some group somewhere wanted to make a regulation that would designate carbon dioxide as a pollutant gas. That would make quite a few businesses and organizations that had a net release or use of carbon dioxide need to purchase permits of several thousand dollars, which would end up making a large financial strain on these businesses. There was quite a bit of controversy as to if you could really qualify carbon dioxide as a pollutant; more political horse-hockey if you ask me. Some people just have too much time on their hands....


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## Rick (Dec 7, 2008)

cnycharles said:


> I heard on the radio that some group somewhere wanted to make a regulation that would designate carbon dioxide as a pollutant gas. That would make quite a few businesses and organizations that had a net release or use of carbon dioxide need to purchase permits of several thousand dollars, which would end up making a large financial strain on these businesses. There was quite a bit of controversy as to if you could really qualify carbon dioxide as a pollutant; more political horse-hockey if you ask me. Some people just have too much time on their hands....



This is being done already in Europe and people are making or saving money investing in technology to reduce GHGs. The US is lagging behind the rest of the developing world. We have already put cap and trade type emission standards on other pollutive gasses, imposed all kinds of regulations, fuel gas standards, etc. and US business didn't go bust despite all their forecasts of financial Armageddon. When the EPA was created in the mid seventies we heard all the same whining then, and it just didn't come true. When the government imposed the implementation of catalytic converters on cars Detroit made all the same noises then. Honda, instead of paying millions to layers to fight the new mandate, beat them to the punch and developed the CIVIC with a more efficient engine that actually thrived on a catalytic converter. They made a bunch of $$$ on that deal.

I guess you are not aware of NY Mayor Bloomberg's mandate to have all taxis turned over to vehicles with hybrids and other fuel efficient vehicles to save gas and reduce carbon. Do you think he is part of that wacko group trying to impose CO2 limits?

We are going to get dusted by the rest of the world if we don't get our act together on carbon. America used to look at challenges as opportunities rather than obstacles. I voted for Obama, but I often have to agree with the McCain campaign official who said that Americans have turned into a bunch of spoiled whiners.


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## cnycharles (Dec 7, 2008)

Rick said:


> I guess you are not aware of NY Mayor Bloomberg's mandate to have all taxis turned over to vehicles with hybrids and other fuel efficient vehicles to save gas and reduce carbon. Do you think he is part of that wacko group trying to impose CO2 limits?



 that's ny city; with apologetic regards to nyeric and others that live there, but I could care less about whatever is going on there especially politics-wise! news around here wouldn't report on city news anyhow unless it was either terror or entertainment (sports or otherwise) -related (or someone there had a scandal of some sort). having hybrids and such seems like a good idea to me no matter the politics involved



Rick said:


> We are going to get dusted by the rest of the world if we don't get our act together on carbon. America used to look at challenges as opportunities rather than obstacles. I voted for Obama, but I often have to agree with the McCain campaign official who said that Americans have turned into a bunch of spoiled whiners.



the last point (excess whining) is true, but with financial struggles only likely to get worse, and the fact that I heard on the radio today that some scientists faked data on temperature data concerning warming stuff, global warming may end up being a very low priority, especially if millions of more people start starving from lack of food

whatever the legislation was they were talking about (I was only listening with 1/2 of one ear) wasn't something old, but some other new regulation that would affect small businesses alot more. I guess I should have listened more...


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## Rick (Dec 7, 2008)

cnycharles said:


> the last point (excess whining) is true, but with financial struggles only likely to get worse, and the fact that I heard on the radio today that some scientists faked data on temperature data concerning warming stuff, global warming may end up being a very low priority, especially if millions of more people start starving from lack of food



You must be listening to that right wing talk radio. There have been several well publicized reports stating that the rate of global warming was underestimated and is presently accelerating. So I don't think you are going to hear to much about global warming as a left wing conspiracy for too long.

People in 3rd world countries aren't starving because they lost their blue collar job and can't afford to go to McDonalds any more. Farms are getting decimated by drought, and Petrodictators are displacing millions off what arable land they have to farm or the forests that afforded them food, and a host of other functions all related to oil and GHG's.

A big chunk of Americas present mess is that we got greedy and wracked up huge debt. Eventually someone had to blink and found out the "King really wasn't wearing any clothes". It was all just Monopoly money all along. We have huge opportunities to take advantage of in sustainable tech to get out of this financial mess, but if we squander it by doing same old same old we are going to get dusted. China and India are gearing up for the challenge as we speak.

You might take a peak at Tom Friedman's book Hot Flat and Crowded. He brings allot of info in from a large number of sources. It's an eye opener if you haven't had access to the bulk of information coming in the matter.


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## cnycharles (Dec 7, 2008)

Rick said:


> You must be listening to that right wing talk radio. There have been several well publicized reports stating that the rate of global warming was underestimated and is presently accelerating. So I don't think you are going to hear to much about global warming as a left wing conspiracy for too long.
> 
> People in 3rd world countries aren't starving because they lost their blue collar job and can't afford to go to McDonalds any more. Farms are getting decimated by drought, and Petrodictators are displacing millions off what arable land they have to farm or the forests that afforded them food, and a host of other functions all related to oil and GHG's.


 stating global warming is an incomplete observation and reporting of facts. I don't remember saying anything about conspiracies on either side of the fence concerning warming/chilling (I am not on either fence of the political system, both are very foolish), but am completely in agreement that global extremes are indeed accelerating rapidly. I read a publication that explains the atmospheric changed coming about and the large changes in ocean environments due to melting glaciers and warming in certain areas, and the expected results that are staggeringly bad. in a great deal of the world things are getting warmer, but in other areas it is getting colder. and at different times a spot that has gotten warmer than usual gets colder than usual. global weather extremes is more accurate, and where you have average highs getting higher all the snow melts. same spot the next year may have extremes colder than usual but the overall will still have melted snow. a very bad result of the initial warming could very well be localized cooling in regions of north america and western europe due to disruption in the ocean currents which could cause much colder weather in those areas. as a final result, you would have higher than normal conditions in many areas and much cooler in other areas; extremes in weather conditions like what we saw this spring/summer could become commonplace or even more severe

many people are starving because someone wanted power or wanted someone out of power, and getting the wars going was a good way to remove the other, and starving them along the way was to them a good quiet way to remove their opponent. lots of places could have food and there is enough food for everyone, but many places don't want poor people to have the food because the food brokers won't make enough money on it; others are holding onto dry food goods as the price goes up so that there will be higher demand and the price go up even more. not long ago I heard complaints from european and other countries that were large food brokers who were pissed because all the do-gooders were donating to food people starving in droughted countries... they would rather the people starved because the assistance was cutting into their bottom line. other places people in power have the food or are preventing the food from getting to the people starving, which people are on the wrong side of the political line and starving those people was how they try to get rid of them.

not everyone is greedy and wracked up tons of debt; if you mean 'us' as american big companies who will sell stupid variable rate mortgages to low-income people or giving credit card offers to kids in college who have no income or giving credit cards to people's dogs and cats, then that is a yes. there is enough greed in big companies to spread around to everyone several times over, but big marketing has been plastering people for years to make them think that if they don't have tons of goods in their closet then they will never arrive, most people have no sense of reality and very few good examples of how not to destroy themselves financially or what is really important; most all financial organizations now still think a typical american should have 'revolving credit at at least 20% of their income, and at least a mortgage of at least 40% of their income'... that sounds about like how deep in debt most people are, if not much more. there are very few good examples of how to deal with debt or how to tell truth from spin


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## Rick (Dec 8, 2008)

Looks like we are pretty much in agreement


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## cnycharles (Dec 8, 2008)

pretty much; as far as the use of co2 for orchids I think the best use might be for seedlings out of flask, compots and fast-growing hybrids or such that are being grown quickly for wholesale markets, where things don't have to be vented a lot, where there will be fast turnover and not a lot of venting when the gas is being used. I'd be happy to learn more about how it is being used well and profitably as I'm always looking for things that will help local growers (of any plants) without costing too much. I'm also wondering if many growers of more adult orchids for themselves might be better off just managing their growing environmental conditions a little better and get the better growth that way, and maybe possibly save some money instead of spending more with new gas setups and testing equipment

... but, if someone has time and money to invest in things and wants to fiddle with something different as a way of learning and gaining new knowledge, that sounds like part of the normal orchid growing fascination!  I'd probably have more high-power lights and all that if I could vent the heat in summer and afford the electricity... right now it's a search for making a disa flow table that has enough light, uses duckweed to filter out excess nutrients and keeps the roots cool in summer (keeping things cool in the winter isn't a problem  ) , oh, and also finding a way to get my small chinese phal species happy in both summer and winter..


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