# Naming Question



## JAB (Nov 18, 2016)

So lets say my Paph sukhakulii 'Fat Boy' that I got from Hillsview gardens blooms. Two questions:
- Since it has already been named and "ranked" (for lack of a better term) is there a point in taking it to judging? Is one simply looking to get a better score? What if 'Fat Boy' has already won a FCC?
- Say I do take it to judging and it scores the highest score ever of a suk... do I add to the name 'Jake and the Fat Boy' or is it forever 'Fat Boy' and I am credited with the score? 

Hope that makes sense. I am new to the judging world so not sure how it works in this regard. 

Thanks
Jake


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## orcoholic (Nov 18, 2016)

It's my understanding that you can always take an orchid to judging and hope for a higher score - as long as there is a new booming.

I'm not sure what you mean by "ranked". If you mean the clonal name 'Fat Boy', I'd say that depends. If it is *not* a division of another suk 'Fat Boy', and has *not* yet been awarded, you can probably change it without anyone being the wiser and it probably doesn't really matter. You probably shouldn't change it if it has been judged before and got no award. That would be a little deceptive.


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## consettbay2003 (Nov 18, 2016)

Since you have only purchased a division of this plant you cannot alter the clonal name 'Fat Boy'. If you had purchased the entire plant then you could change the clonal name. This would not be advisable if the plant had previously been used for breeding and had proven itself to be a valuable parent. 
If you take it to judging and it gets and award you will be credited with the score and will be noted as the exhibitor.


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## tnyr5 (Nov 18, 2016)

Also, even if a plant has been awarded, it can be taken in again on a different blooming, if the exhibitor blooms a better flower and wants to try for higher.


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## Ray (Nov 19, 2016)

If you purchased 'Fat Boy', whether it was a division of the plant, a clone, or the entire thing, it will always be 'Fat Boy'. Renaming it is unethical.

If it was 'Fat Boy' FCC @ 95 points, and you got another FCC @ 99 points, it is still 'Fat Boy' FCC, noted as being shown by you.

The only possible exception to that first paragraph, probably due to the fact that the naming and award systems predate the technology, is the case in which a clone mutates during the process, then it seems OK to rename it.


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## JAB (Nov 19, 2016)

Thanks. Exactly what I was thinking


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## PaphMadMan (Nov 19, 2016)

Ray said:


> If you purchased 'Fat Boy', whether it was a division of the plant, a clone, or the entire thing, it will always be 'Fat Boy'. Renaming it is unethical.
> 
> If it was 'Fat Boy' FCC @ 95 points, and you got another FCC @ 99 points, it is still 'Fat Boy' FCC, noted as being shown by you.
> 
> The only possible exception to that first paragraph, probably due to the fact that the naming and award systems predate the technology, is the case in which a clone mutates during the process, then it seems OK to rename it.



It is not just appropriate, but necessary and required, to apply a new cultivar name if a mutation occurs that changes the characteristics of the cultivar. Not just orchids, all cultivated plants. Not just in cloning, anytime.


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## slippery (Nov 26, 2016)

Whether is was purchased as 'Fat Boy' or not is not important,
if it was awarded as 'Fat Boy' that is another matter. If it was
awarded you can always get a higher award on the plant, but
the name sticks. If it was not awarded and you get it awarded,
you have the right to name it whatever you like and the mother
plant from which the division came should also have your chosen
clonal name. Jerry


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## Ray (Nov 26, 2016)

I don't agree, Jerry. Renaming any named cultivar is, in my opinion, unethical. Consider this scenario:

You have a plant that you think is of award quality, and named the cultivar 'Jerry's Best'. You sold a division to someone, and later they show the plant, and it gets an FCC. However, they changed the cultivar name from 'Jerry's Best' to 'Joe's Tops'. 

At that point, by all rights, your plant and all of the other divisions you sold should also carry the award - they are genetically identical, after all - but they can't, as they are "different" cultivars.


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## paphioland (Nov 26, 2016)

Ray said:


> I don't agree, Jerry. Renaming any named cultivar is, in my opinion, unethical. Consider this scenario:
> 
> You have a plant that you think is of award quality, and named the cultivar 'Jerry's Best'. You sold a division to someone, and later they show the plant, and it gets an FCC. However, they changed the cultivar name from 'Jerry's Best' to 'Joe's Tops'.
> 
> At that point, by all rights, your plant and all of the other divisions you sold should also carry the award - they are genetically identical, after all - but they can't, as they are "different" cultivars.



Don't forget breeding ramifications.


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## slippery (Nov 26, 2016)

Ray, still not a problem for me. If 'Joe's Tops' gets an FCC I'll gladly
rename 'Jerry's Best'. I do keep track of the few divisions that I sell
and Joe would in theory contact me after the award to let me know.
Now if there are 10 divisions out there, that might be a problem.
If that were the case, I would consider it my responsibility to notify
the other plant owners of the award because all clones would as you
say carry the award. Just a different way of looking at things.
Jerry


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## gonewild (Nov 27, 2016)

slippery said:


> Ray, still not a problem for me. If 'Joe's Tops' gets an FCC I'll gladly
> rename 'Jerry's Best'. I do keep track of the few divisions that I sell
> and Joe would in theory contact me after the award to let me know.
> Now if there are 10 divisions out there, that might be a problem.
> ...



Changing the name is not correct and should never be done. You may keep track of the divisions you sell but you have no way to keep track of divisions sold down the ownership line. Changing the name would also add confusion into the genetic tracking of crosses made with it as a parent.


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## terryros (Nov 27, 2016)

This type of thing, accidental and deliberate, is why I only buy named clones, mericlones, or divisions when I can reliably track the ownership chain (and even this isn't perfect). It is like establishing the provenance of an antique. If you can't do this well, you don't know what you are getting. Many people have experienced this disappointment.

A classic example is the conflict between between Paph. Maudiae 'Bankhaus' and 'The Queen'. Circumstantial evidence suggests 'The Queen', awarded later than 'Bankhaus', came from a division of 'Bankhaus', but the truth is now buried in records that are now gone, or at least not publicly available.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## PaphMadMan (Nov 27, 2016)

The rules about naming cultivars come from an international agreement, *International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants*, maintained by the International Society for Horticultural Science. It isn't a matter of opinion. As I was taught, as long as a single owner has all divisions or clones of the plant and the name has not been publicized the name can be changed. Once a cultivar is publicized (as with an award designation or catalog description) or is distributed (which includes giving one division to different ownership) the name can't be changed. An exception would be an unpublicized cultivar that was distributed could be changed if all owners of divisions can be identified, and all agree. Whether this is legally binding could depend on laws and legal interpretation in different countries. The potential downside of changing the cultivar name of a unique and valuable plant is obvious, as others have mentioned. In some cases a cultivar can be marketed under another name though.

To be clear, the circumstances I discussed in a previous post are different. If significant characteristics of a cultivar have changed, as in a permanent genetic change in flower color for instance, then it no longer conforms to the original cultivar and should no longer be given that name. Then the name can and must be changed.


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## tnyr5 (Nov 27, 2016)

What Kirk said. 
If I sold someone a named division of a plant that I thought was award-quality, and someone had it awarded and changed the name, I would be VERY upset. Hunt-you-down upset lol.


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## My Green Pets (Nov 27, 2016)

Lol


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## paphioland (Nov 27, 2016)

slippery said:


> Ray, still not a problem for me. If 'Joe's Tops' gets an FCC I'll gladly
> rename 'Jerry's Best'. I do keep track of the few divisions that I sell
> and Joe would in theory contact me after the award to let me know.
> Now if there are 10 divisions out there, that might be a problem.
> ...



This is not correct etiquette. You can do whatever you want. You can get an awarded plant reawarded and use a different clonal name. It's just very poor orchid etiquette.The system is based on honor. If someone sells you a plant with a clonal name. You should tell them when buying it that you will change the clonal name, so they can refuse. If it has been used in breeding or been awarded or there are divisions the seller doesn't have and will not have the name changed you shouldn't and the seller should let you know. If it has never been used in breeding or divided and the seller agrees you can change it. But you can do whatever you want it is just shady.

From proper orchid etiquette you should never change clonal name unless it has never been used in breeding, there are no divisions or the person who gave it consents. The only way to change it ethically is if the person who gave the clonal name consents and is willing to change all records of the clonal name there is anywhere. If there is some part of the clonal name outside their control you should not change it. Meaning they can't change all breeding records or all divisions. If one seedling or division has been sold you should not change even if they consent which a reputable breeder would not. Even if the plant has not progeny divisions or awards if you change the clonal name you bought the plant with you are shaddy unless you get consent.

You should stick to buying unnamed clones if you are going to do shady things. When you buy a named clone there is an agreement that you are going to keep the clonal name unless you ask. They probably wouldn't sell the clone to you if the knew you were going to change it. See I only care about the flower I don't understand why everyone is so into naming and awards. You didn't create the cross so who cares. Appreciate the flower. The only people concerned should be hybridizers naming their crosses . The shaddiness that goes on there is a whole different subject.


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## PaphMadMan (Nov 27, 2016)

To reiterate - it is not just etiquette, it is not just orchids, it is not just a matter of opinion. There are internationally recognized rules for naming cultivars, and cultivar names can be viewed as similar to trademarks and brand identification. Any deliberate circumvention of the rules is not just shady. If you don't own every division it can approach fraud and theft of intellectual property, and may be illegal in some circumstances.


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## slippery (Nov 27, 2016)

Hey guys, put the big guns away and relax.
I have no intentions of ever getting an awarded plant
reawarded using a different clonal name. That would
be totally ridiculous and what would be the point? I
also have never bought a plant already having a clonal
name, therefore have never changed a clonal name and 
have never given a clonal name until after a plant is awarded.
Why name it at all until it is awarded? As far as awards 
are concerned I couldn't care less. I am perfectly capable 
of determining whether a plant is special on my own, no
help needed. No shadiness here, babe. Jerry


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## gonewild (Nov 27, 2016)

slippery said:


> Why name it at all until it is awarded?



Because when you divide a plant and create another clone identical to the original you should give each one a common id name so the divisions are known to be the same. It does not have to be a name can be an ID code like "slip1" or some way so know that the plants are divisions. That way if one gets an award someday by someone the other divisions will also have the same award status.


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## paphioland (Nov 27, 2016)

PaphMadMan said:


> To reiterate - it is not just etiquette, it is not just orchids, it is not just a matter of opinion. There are internationally recognized rules for naming cultivars, and cultivar names can be viewed as similar to trademarks and brand identification. Any deliberate circumvention of the rules is not just shady. If you don't own every division it can approach fraud and theft of intellectual property, and may be illegal in some circumstances.



Is there a single case of precedent for your comment? Everyone is so quick to say it's illegal. Good luck with that. First of all if it is in a state it would be state law and if it crossed state lines it would be federal. If it is in different countries it's just laughable. Please show me the statute or some orchid naming precedent where someone was prosecuted or found to be guilty in civil or criminal court. So it is just etiquette. You will not be found guilty of any law. Also biologic copyrighting is very difficult. It's just ridiculous. I'm sorry. How do you even prove it. It's crazy. But I agree that to keep our hobby honest the common courtesy rules should be followed. I guess you could sue someone in civil court for losses for violation of a contract. It would not be criminal though and I think you would have a very difficult time getting any significant damages. It's an orchid.


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## gonewild (Nov 27, 2016)

https://www.plantdelights.com/blogs/articles/name-that-plant


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## paphioland (Nov 27, 2016)

gonewild said:


> https://www.plantdelights.com/blogs/articles/name-that-plant



So like I said find me an example of orchid clonal names being trademarked and there being damages or a fine.


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