# true hydroponic orchid bloom production



## cnycharles (Dec 12, 2011)

I was letting my fingers do the walking through the internet when I found this link
http://hydroponics.com.au/free-articles/issue-96-barrita-orchids
I was trying to find a basis for the reason that fertilizer companies have tried to tell everyone that fertilizers should have a fairly balanced ratio between N and K. We have been having discussions about lowering the level of K that we feed our orchids, because of problems possibly observed with plant/media being overwhelmed by K (potassium), and while I generally agree with the observations that lowering the K in the fertilizer seems to be a good thing, on the other hand I know there are many orchid growers out there, that probably just throw on their plants whatever is available and get good results. 

I was hoping to find some fertilizer research that has been done with orchids, and I found the above link. The Barries have been growing orchids completely hydroponically in Australia for a number of years. They use only rock wool, styrene and perlite, and water overhead. They also mention in their article that by altering the leaf levels of N and K in their plants (mostly cymbidiums, cut-flower production) they can help to induce flowering. I emailed the owner and asked him about their hydroponic methods and how they came about their ratios, and if they had done any specific research that let them know what were the best ratios of N:K and all for their cut-flower production. It should be interesting!

(... and I will post whatever I learn here)


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## Rick (Dec 12, 2011)

Yes

I hope they throw in their info on Ca/Mg too.

It's obvious that they use it, but its often neglected in consideration of leaf tissue analysis.


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## eggshells (Dec 12, 2011)

I hope they tell you. That will be really helpful


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## Rick (Dec 12, 2011)

It also occurred to me that the bulk of high K orchid literature is focused on mass produced hybrids/mericlones. The Barries commercial focus is also on cut flowers, and with most of the K in a plant directed towards the flowers, doesn't this go back to something like the corn or potato analogy to maximize an annual harvestable biomass?

We talk about how line bred / multi-generational plants are nothing like there wild counterparts and so much easier to culture.

Since all these hybrids are selected under high K growing conditions, could it be that the genes for high K uptake rate have been lost in hybrids? Selective breeding for tolerance to toxicants is a much stronger selective force than breeding for things like big flowers.

The handful of hybrid plants I have rarely seem to have problems (but they are responding favorably to the low K regime anyway).

Other factors to consider in terms of total dose are frequency and duration.


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## poozcard (Dec 13, 2011)

i am quite new here.
could you give some evidence that the low K gives better result.
in what way, and how good it is?

thank you.


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## NYEric (Dec 13, 2011)

Interesting.


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## Rick (Dec 13, 2011)

poozcard said:


> i am quite new here.
> could you give some evidence that the low K gives better result.
> in what way, and how good it is?
> 
> thank you.



Poozcard

Try jumping into some of the threads like "K-Lite fertilizer"


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## likespaphs (Dec 13, 2011)

to make it easy: http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23249&highlight=k-lite


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## Rick (Dec 13, 2011)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1092060/pdf/plntphys00868-0110.pdf

Here's yet another twist.

Chloride effects the movement of K in plant cells (read link).

If you are using MSU in RO water, your plants would have virtully no chloride available.

If you use any tap water or fertilizers that use chloride salts of Mg, Ca, or K, then you have plenty of Cl to work with the plant to regulate K.

Hard to say how much chloride is standard in different types of potting mixes too.

I recently came across a paper that demonstrated that K was fine at much higher ppms than natural (and attributed to N-K ratio) BUT they also had a bunch of Ca in the system supplied as CaCl2.


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## keithrs (Dec 13, 2011)

Where would a vanda get choride from naturally?


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## poozcard (Dec 13, 2011)

Rick said:


> Poozcard
> 
> Try jumping into some of the threads like "K-Lite fertilizer"



Thx
will do


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## Stone (Dec 13, 2011)

Rick said:


> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1092060/pdf/plntphys00868-0110.pdf
> 
> Here's yet another twist.
> 
> ...



Reading that was begining to make my eyes crossed! I've been looking for a way to add Ca to my c/weed hit to balance some of the K but without adding N. I still have an unopened container of CaCl+Mg so maybe I could use that but adding Cl to anything other than olive trees goes against my instinct.
Maybe you could suggest an app rate so if something goes wrong I've got someone to blame.


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## poozcard (Dec 13, 2011)

May I ask what is MSU?


this K issue interests me cuz I have been using high K for 3 years without problem noticed (Or it might be me that is wrong haha)

I am using mainly pumice + bark + limestone as pot mix.
and watering with tap water only (and rain seasonally but no RO)

maybe the Ca in pot mix and Cl in tap keep my plant save from that boost of K from fertilizer 

haha


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## gonewild (Dec 13, 2011)

Be careful to not misunderstand the idea about lowering the potassium level.

Orchids grow very well with the low standard fertilizer ratios. MSU fertilizer grows beautiful and healthy plants, even if you use it forever. The idea about reducing the potassium is to "improve" growth and plant vigor.

Your plants may very well be doing great on the standard fertilizer for years and may continue to do so. I have always used higher levels of potassium and have never had a reason to think it might not be the best until Rick told his observations. So remember using standard fertilizers is not "wrong", but it may not be the best.

It will be interesting to see what the Barries have to say about any low potassium experience they have had.


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## poozcard (Dec 13, 2011)

gonewild said:


> Your plants may very well be doing great on the standard fertilizer for years and may continue to do so. I have always used higher levels of potassium and have never had a reason to think it might not be the best until Rick told his observations. So remember using standard fertilizers is not "wrong", but it may not be the best.



I will check the link of K-lite fertilizer tonight.
thank you for your advise

I love experiment too. Let me check if I can run some test.


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## Rick (Dec 13, 2011)

Stone said:


> Reading that was begining to make my eyes crossed! I've been looking for a way to add Ca to my c/weed hit to balance some of the K but without adding N. I still have an unopened container of CaCl+Mg so maybe I could use that but adding Cl to anything other than olive trees goes against my instinct.
> Maybe you could suggest an app rate so if something goes wrong I've got someone to blame.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_the_chemical_elements

I'm not sure why folks get so up tight about things like Na and Cl. Generally there is a lot more of it floating around in the environment than K. Life forms have adapted to it if not became dependent on it.


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## Stone (Dec 13, 2011)

Rick said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_the_chemical_elements
> 
> I'm not sure why folks get so up tight about things like Na and Cl. Generally there is a lot more of it floating around in the environment than K. Life forms have adapted to it if not became dependent on it.



Thats easy, try feeding something with Na or Cl at the same concentration that would K and see what happens. Obviously some Cl could be acceptable but question is how much? In the end , its probably better to just leave it out. Plants certainly don't NEED it.


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## eggshells (Dec 13, 2011)

Stone said:


> Thats easy, try feeding something with Na or Cl at the same concentration that would K and see what happens. Obviously some Cl could be acceptable but question is how much? In the end , its probably better to just leave it out. Plants certainly don't NEED it.



I agree with Rick. I dont think that chloride on that supplement hurt at all. You're tap water probably contains more. And also I don't agree that plants don't need chloride, with all due respect of course. All things that are in excess are bad and that also applies with Na or Cl


The primary roles of chloride include:

Chloride is important in the opening and closing of stomata. The role of the chloride anion (Cl-) is essential to chemically balance the potassium ion (K+) concentration that increases in the guard cells during the opening and closing of stomata.

Chloride also functions in photosynthesis, specifically in the water splitting system.

Chloride functions in cation balance and transport within the plant.

Chloride diminishes the effects of fungal infections in an as yet undefined way.

Chloride competes with nitrate uptake, tending to promote the use of ammonium nitrogen. Lowering nitrate uptake may be a factor in chloride’s role in disease suppression, since high plant nitrates have been associated with disease severity.
Chloride*is a critical component in the development of plants.

Got that by googling


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## eggshells (Dec 13, 2011)

Rick said:


> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1092060/pdf/plntphys00868-0110.pdf
> 
> Here's yet another twist.
> 
> ...



Rick, do you think that is one of the reasons why there's more of a problem with Kalium when using pure RO water with fertilizer because it was stripped out with ca, mg and Cl which the plants use to regulate K? That makes sense.


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## Stone (Dec 14, 2011)

eggshells said:


> I agree with Rick. I dont think that chloride on that supplement hurt at all. You're tap water probably contains more. And also I don't agree that plants don't need chloride, with all due respect of course. All things that are in excess are bad and that also applies with Na or Cl
> 
> 
> The primary roles of chloride include:
> ...



Ok, point taken but where are the plants in my g/h getting their Cl from? Its not the water (rainwater)(ec 0.0 and its not the feed 0%CL, kelp 0% so if they are getting it, it must be from P/Media? so it must be arriving in extremely low concentrations. Maybe I should have said they certainly don't NEED any extra. The Ca/Mg boost I have was designed for things like vegies and fruit trees which can tolerate at least 4 times the salinity of sensitive species so if I dilute it 4 times recommended, I wonder if it would be worth the trouble for the amount of Ca I get.
Cl is usually the first ion to affect plants and show damage and cannot be removed so affected parts don't recover hence my reluctance.


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## eggshells (Dec 14, 2011)

I think it also come from rain water, dust, pollution, fertilizer,air and soil. It is abundant in the environment but i think it leach very easily. That's probably why organisms have adapted to it.

I do understand your reluctance on using it because the excess Cl looks like fertilizer burn. You're plants are getting it even if you don't know it. But like Rick said its abundant in nature and I think that supplement calmax is fine. But If you are asking about the proper levels of Cl. I don't know. But that supplement or tap water has worked well for me.

Maybe you're giving you're plants too little credit on utilizing Cl.


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## keithrs (Dec 14, 2011)

Is Cl overdose the reason why some orchid get pitted leaves, burnt root, and some sensitive Den. died from Physan?


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