# paph and non-slipper leaf issues



## cnycharles (Dec 16, 2011)

I'm pretty sure these are two different issues

First: I repotted a few paphs early last spring into some standard paph seedling mix from kelly's korner, mixed with some beach sand that I thought I had completely cleaned and soaked until the water coming off had the same tds reading as my tap water (very low), plus a small amount of small rockwool cubes for moisture. Most of these probably had gotten a bit dry between waterings, but I'm wondering if the reactions are from high salt from the sand? I had read 'don't use beach sand', but at the time I couldn't find any sand that wasn't a 50lb bag or larger or these little bags of decorative beach sand, and I thought 'I'll just wash it alot and clean it (beach sand) up' and it'll be okay.






paph spicerianum. a division of a plant I posted flower pics of a few weeks ago; leaves should be smooth, but this one has pocked leaves, some shiny silver and older leaves really yellow/orange





close-up of same plant





this is a paph barbigerum. it has the same media, same pocks and dying old leaves

there is a tiny paph micranthum with the same pocked leaves and though it's also in some woods moss it also had that sand. I also put some of the sand into the media of a paph delenatii that had been growing pretty well, and it reacted negatively as well
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Now, this is a different leaf issue. First plant is a pholidota imbricata and next is a dendrochilum. There is some sort of leaf spot thing which results in leaf death eventually, and is on other plants as well.





pholidota imbricata; orange/red and spots, leaf dies





philippine dendrochilum, leaf spots resulting in leaf death

I'm going to repot the paphs that had that sand, but I'd like to know what the paph leaf issues were, if the beach sand did end up leaching salts into the media and poisoning the plants?


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## SlipperFan (Dec 16, 2011)

Is there still sand in your potting mix? I don't see evidence of it in your photos. Beach sand is very fine -- maybe it washed out of your pots when you watered?


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## cnycharles (Dec 16, 2011)

I tipped the barbigerum out of it's pot, and there is still sand mixed evenly through the media. This sand actually was fairly coarse...

the larger paph spicerianum with the flowers doesn't look like this; it was repotted into something else beforehand. the one pictured here had been in semi-hydro and the leaves were clean but bleached probably from not enough fertilizer, and changed to look like this after having the new media


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## biothanasis (Dec 16, 2011)

In the first pic the silvery appearance of the leaf indicates a spier mite occurance. Check thoroughly. The markings on the other plants seem like bacterial or something???  If you had a ny incident of leaf rotting in the point where the base of the plants is connecting with the roots then it is a bacteria which I had too, but do not remember the name of. 
I would try to reduce watering frequency, perhaps it will make things better.... (???)


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## cnycharles (Dec 16, 2011)

well actually the leaf spots get larger, then the leaf turns yellow and eventually it falls off. it doesn't actually rot at the bottom, just falls off like an 'old leaf'. I'm pretty sure there aren't any mites, though there are some mealybugs around here and there.

I just looked closely and there aren't any mites, but the mealybugs are a bit smaller and some look pink a bit instead of white. They seem to be more out on the leaves than hiding in the leaf axils; they probably came in from something from a warmer area as we don't usually have that kind around here (ours usually hide in the axils and corners)


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## tim (Dec 16, 2011)

all the leaves of all the plants you show have severe mite damage, which is common when growing indoors in lower humidities. silvery leaves and pockmarks are indicators. the best "treatment" is higher humidity, short of spraying.

In addition, the spotting on dendrochilum leaves and dead paph growths look to me like water quality or salt-related issues, so your guess of beach sand is probably correct. fyi those plants i've seen grown well in beach sand are in very humid greenhouses; i would be concerned with overdrying indoors. 

you're growing in a very difficult environment. best of luck!


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## cnycharles (Dec 16, 2011)

thanks. there isn't any sand in the dendrochilum media, so the damage would have to be from something else. I've checked the plants under the leaves. there aren't any mites, unless they are broad or something smaller than the standard mites that love dry conditions. I've swiped under the leaves, and there is no red smear. there are some small pink mealybugs, but no two-spotted spider mites. there is no webbing, and the phrags and other plants right next to them that didn't receive the same media, don't have the marks


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## Paph_LdyMacBeth (Dec 16, 2011)

I agree with the mite damage so, perhaps its old news?
The plants almost looked "cooked" to me. I had a few paphs that I left sitting in a window two summers ago and they looked very similar to this. Could they be too hot?


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## cnycharles (Dec 16, 2011)

maybe the small pink mealybugs are making damage like mites, but unless there are broad or false mites that are very tiny and don't have any webs, there weren't any before to have been 'gone'. they've been progressing to this 'look'. it's not that hot in there, and where I had the plants they weren't that close to the one light. I think the beach sand is messing with them and i'll nuke them with imidacloprid for those small pink mealybugs (after repotting and getting rid of the sand)

I mixed in a little bit of small grodan rockwool cubes; this couldn't be bothering the plants? I have other plants right in there but the ones that didn't have this particular repotting don't have this kind of damage


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## biothanasis (Dec 17, 2011)

Charles, are their roots ok??? Have u considered of changing into fresh potting medium to see if anything changes? Was the sand clean when you used it? maybe some pathogens from the sand did the damage, which is your first guess...


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## Cochlopetalum (Dec 17, 2011)

The Pholidota and Dendrochilum reminds me of damages i had on a Tecopus.
Looking like some kind of fungi.

http://www.hark-orchideen.de/Pflanzenschutz/Colletotrichum/bilder.php?lang=en&navID=99


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## Cochlopetalum (Dec 17, 2011)

The Paphs have mites. I had a lot of those false spidermites and you need a magnifying glass to be able to see them. You have to look close, because they are realy, realy tiny.


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## cnycharles (Dec 17, 2011)

would the mites also be on the phrags, because they are right there... don't see that damage on them. a paph armeniacum and roth right next to the others don't show anything (and not sure if they had the sand)

I'll check the roots, thanasis. though the barbigerum when I knocked it out last night the roots looked okay. this is why using generic sand makes me nervous because you really don't know what might be mixed in. i'll be repotting all of them anyhow 'just 'cause'.


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## biothanasis (Dec 17, 2011)

If you would like to add sand into the mix to give it better characteristics, then you could try the sand used for aquariums. It is more whitish than beach sand. I do not remember the substrate origin though (looks like silica sand as I have seen photos of...). I use it for my terrestrials (e.g. habenaria) mixed with perlite.

I hope they recover really really soon...


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## Cochlopetalum (Dec 17, 2011)

cnycharles said:


> would the mites also be on the phrags, because they are right there... don't seem that damage on them. a paph armeniacum and roth right next to the others don't show anything (and not sure if they had the sand)
> 
> I'll check the roots, thanasis. though the barbigerum when I knocked it out last night the roots looked okay. this is why using generic sand makes me nervous because you really don't know what might be mixed in. i'll be repotting all of them anyhow 'just 'cause'.



I had the same experience. Clean healty plants, next to badly infested with these tiny mites. I have given this a lot of tought and maybe something is not quite alright with the infested plants, like a nutriens inbalance.

Im trying the low K, to se if that makes any differens to my problem.

My Phrags never had any mites. I dont think this kind of mites find them tasty.


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## cnycharles (Dec 17, 2011)

There may also be some issues from one of my water sources that I'm not using anymore, that contributed to the overall bad look of these plants... I had purchased a water filter from a greenhouse supply company that is supposed to go on a hose bib before you hook up your garden hose, and it's supposed to filter the water. It doesn't really say how it works, and I'm worried that somehow it's a water softener because some of the plants I was watering turned tan/brown and died! Also some of these plants looked burnt like you say. I had a phal parishii and a phal amboinensis that just turned tan/brown and kicked the bucket pretty quickly.... I would hook up a water sprayer hose to the kitchen faucet using that filter, and at times I thought things looked funny after watering with it a few times. I'll repot all those paphs and see how they look (also after spraying the mealybugs)


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## NYEric (Dec 18, 2011)

IMO, it looks like the Paphs got too dry. On the others with the spotted leaves, it looks like something with a problem dripped on them. Was there another plant above them?


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## Rick (Dec 18, 2011)

I doubt if the sand is an issue. Even "beach" sand is not going to hold up much in the way of "salts" with minimal rinsing. The bark would retain more.

I would still be looking at mineral/nutritional imbalance and low humidity as culprits though.


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## SlipperFan (Dec 18, 2011)

I agree with Cochlopetalum -- I had an infestation of spidermites on my Paphs and Phals, but the Phrags right next to them we free from the critters.


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## cnycharles (Dec 19, 2011)

I'm sure the plants got dry. I looked at the roots on the paph spicerianum division that had previously been in semi-hydro (the one that looked pretty silvery on some leaves) and the roots weren't so hot. it's repotted in some orchiata/aragonite/charcoal and sponge rock plus some bone meal. actually everything is going to be in orchiata with some variation of the rest, just because my tap water is so empty but has chlorine and fluoride, I worry that since I even fertilize sparingly that I'm stripping things out of the leaves and such when I use the water wand from the sink, and replacing things with chlorine and fluoride. when I tried using that water filter I thought that was when I really noticed that some of the plants looked funky, and I had phals parishii and amboinensis that were previously pretty healthy, go boots up. both plants had a sort of tan color to them, not the usual leaves turn yellow and fall off


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## NYEric (Dec 19, 2011)

Plants dont need a *lot *of fertilizer.


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## cnycharles (Dec 19, 2011)

well, mine get very little  . and from seeing root tips turn black, and plants with leaves that get dull and turn yellow at the tips and then die back (mostly phals), I know that I much too often just grab the misting wand hooked up to the city water and just hit them with that. I know from work that seedlings that get misted like this get pale and look crusty because the water leaches nutrients out, and because they lack some nutrients i'm sure that's making them more susceptible to other things, including the chlorine in the water. i'm hoping that the minerals in orchiata will help along those lines, but i've already started fertilizing more, and I've started seeing roots start up again and healthy root tips. I wish there were an easy (meaning non-messy) way to hook up some fertilizer to my misting wand so that I could put at least calcium nitrate on my plants all the time weakly between regular feedings, but as the hozon portable injector I bought drips all over the place (not good in an apartment), and my two gallon sprayer that I use for mounted plant feeding leaks a lot out of the handle (haven't found any that don't leak), I end up falling back to grabbing the misting wand/clear water because I hate making a mess whenever I want to water/fertilize my plants. 

I use an aquarium pump, tube and five gallon bucket to feed potted plants (and sometimes squeeze the end to make a 'mist'), but to water upper level plants I have to put on a stool etc but that can tip over


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## NYEric (Dec 19, 2011)

Phals and other vandaceous plants need more fert than others. Also the orchiata supplemented with rockwool and diatomite should reduce the dryness issue.


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