# Paphiopedilum villosum var. annamense



## DrLeslieEe (Nov 22, 2019)

After blooming my villosum aureum I started to get more interested in the species. So I decided to try a couple more plants. This one I bought from Tropical Gardens in B.C. from the line breeding of Orchid Inn. The flowers just opened for two days and may expand a little more. I like the color and stance. The other sister plant’s flower should open in a few days so I can compare. NS 10 cm, DS 5.4 cm


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## Ozpaph (Nov 22, 2019)

big, flat dorsal


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## DrLeslieEe (Nov 22, 2019)

It is a rather husky looking fella.


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## Guldal (Nov 23, 2019)

Lovely! Thx for sharing!


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## DrLeslieEe (Nov 25, 2019)

Three days later the flower has stabilized in size and form. 

NS = 10.5 cm
DS = 5.5 x 5.5 cm
Petal = 4.0 x 6.0 cm
Pouch = 3.5 x 6.0 cm


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## DrLeslieEe (Nov 29, 2019)

Updated pic a week after it opened. Size is more open and the colour of DS intensified to a yellow background with deep chestnut overlay. I read that villosums can last 60 days. Is this true? My aureum villosum lasted only 30ish days.


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## DrLeslieEe (Nov 29, 2019)

In addition the sister plant from same batch just opened as well. Narrower DS that’s green rather than yellow with condense chestnut blotched rather than the webbing. Overall flower dimensions smaller. It has a different bos or umbo colour, which is greenish rather than orange yellow (like the above).I prefer green as in my aureum.


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## Guldal (Nov 30, 2019)

Besides being from Sam's briefing line do you have more specific details about their parentage?!


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## Phred (Nov 30, 2019)

Hi Leslie
Your villosums are not bar annamense. Paph villosum var annamense has a White dorsal sepal not yellow. See attached link for description.

http://www.slipperorchids.info/paphdatasheets/paphiopedilum/villosumvarannamense/index.html

At present there are many seedlings from “Chuck’s Warrior x self” on the market. They are sold as var. annamense but they are not. “Chuck’s Warrior” AM/AOS from photos is not var. annamense either.


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## BrucherT (Nov 30, 2019)

DrLeslieEe said:


> After blooming my villosum aureum I started to get more interested in the species. So I decided to try a couple more plants. This one I bought from Tropical Gardens in B.C. from the line breeding of Orchid Inn. The flowers just opened for two days and may expand a little more. I like the color and stance. The other sister plant’s flower should open in a few days so I can compare. NS 10 cm, DS 5.4 cm
> 
> View attachment 17061
> View attachment 17062
> View attachment 17063



love the spread of villosums! You have quite a range but yeah I think these aren’t annamense for reasons Phred elucidated. But who cares! All are wonderful. The dorsal on the first, stout one is spectacular. Might one prevail upon you to include your aureum in this thread?


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## Phred (Nov 30, 2019)

You’re mostly correct ButcherT... the reason it’s important is that Leslie shows or has his orchids judged. The AOS has already incorrectly awarded two many villosum as var. annamense. The villosum in Leslie’s photo looks like the newly described... and accepted var. laichaunum. Paphiopedilum villosum var. laichaunum has probably been in the trade for a long time. When ‘Chuck’s Warrior’ was awarded it was awarded just as villosum with no varietal designation. ‘Chuck’s Warrior’ appears to be var. laichaunum therefore all of the (‘Chuck’s Warrior’ x self) would be also. I got a villosum (‘Chuck’s Warrior’ x self) seedling awarded last year. The label said Paphiopedilum villosum var anamense (‘Chuck’s Warrior’ x self). First they compared it to ‘Chucks Warrior’ and according to the judges it was bigger/better than ‘Chuck’s Warrior’ in every respect. Then because the label said var. annamense they compared it to the most recent awarded var. annamense. At the time I didn’t know any better or I would have left the tag out. It was incorrectly compared to var. annamense and was awarded an HCC/AOS as var. annamense. I contacted AOS and provided them with the var. laichaunum information and the question about ‘Chuck’s Warrior’. It took almost a year to hear back but Ron McHatton at AOS said they now accept var. laichaunum and they will be looking at ‘Chuck’s Warrior’ to see if they agree with me that it is var. laichaunum. If they agree they will re-classify ‘Chuck’s Warrior’ as var. laichaunum (with its award) and then they will reclassify my award.
Attached is a photo of my awarded villosum


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## DrLeslieEe (Dec 1, 2019)

Hi Fred, thanks for this information. I actually looked it up online and in the journals and you and BrucherT are right! The yellow dorsal sepal is a dead giveaway as well as the rest of the flower colours, larger synsepal than pouch, as well as the plant characteristics of smaller size and narrower leaves. Mine have these characteristics and rightly should be labeled var laichaunum. This complex is indeed confusing and so many varieties and colour range.

And if I decide to bring these two brothers to judging next weekend, I will include the new variety as described in the paper below:

https://orchidee.de/neubeschreibungen/2018/10/Paphiopedilum_villosum.pdf

Furthermore, during my background search of the parentage today, the label read Paph. villosum fma amnamense ('Shine & Glory' x 'Chocolate Dorsal' AM/AOS). I asked Sam about it and showed him the flower pics. He says they are not amnamense and possibly labelled wrongly during distribution. This further confirms what Fred was saying. 

BTW Red, your 'Lily' looks like 'Husky's' little sister. I hope you get to show her again this year to correct the variety name and upgrade the award.

That's why I love ST! You get updated info and tips that would not present itself until too late!

PS....Now I have to collect the other villosum varieties after looking at the paper. I have possibly the var fusco-roseum (mislabeled as coccineum?).


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## Guldal (Dec 1, 2019)

Sorry to be a stickler for precision, but the correct epithet is: villosum var. laichauense, i.e. from Lai Châu, North Western province of Vietnam on the border to China!


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## BrucherT (Dec 2, 2019)

Excellent! Here is a nice annamense I found randomly:


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## Hien (Dec 3, 2019)

There is this article by Averyanov , he describes many varieties of villosum in Vietnam, he also provides keys to differentiate them
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316919348_Variations_of_Paphiopedilum_villosum_in_Vietnam
keep scroll down in the article to see it


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## Hien (Dec 3, 2019)

And there is this article showing many types of villosum in Vietnam
http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/orchid/org/shinshu/enshinshu86.html
Among them I like "Laichau" type the best, and your is a very nice one.
I saw on the internet, there were even more variations shown by vietnamese than those listed above
by the way, after one thousand year under Chinese occupation, around 40 AD , the vietnamese Trung sisters threw them out, but different Chinese dynasties attempted invasions again and again almost until modern time. There was a time in 111 BC, the Chinese called Vietnam "Annam" , the French took that word from the Chinese, so villosum annamense is just a type of villosum from Vietnam that the western scientist name after the old country's name.

Sorry Leslie, I did not pay attention that you already posted the Dutch version of the article, I posted the same thing in Japanese


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## Phred (Dec 3, 2019)

Thank you Hien for those links... I had not seen the first one.


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## Hien (Dec 3, 2019)

BrucherT said:


> Excellent! Here is a nice annamense I found randomly:


The one you show may be closer to fusco-roseum than annamense ?


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## Elf (Dec 3, 2019)

I'm following this with interest, as I have two Paph villosum, both with very different habit/foliage. The first one has bloomed, and has upright, strap-like foliage - am I correct in assuming this is annamense (photo attached)? The other has very long and floppy foliage - I am eagerly waiting for it to bloom.


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## Ozpaph (Dec 4, 2019)

All very interesting, and technical, but why would adding the 'forma' be important in awarding a species? Surely they are all 'just' colour variations of villosums and should be collectively compared as they are a single species.


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## Phred (Dec 4, 2019)

Ozpaph said:


> All very interesting, and technical, but why would adding the 'forma' be important in awarding a species? Surely they are all 'just' colour variations of villosums and should be collectively compared as they are a single species.


Not always quite that simple Ozpaph. A true variety of a species is not just a different color. It would have one or more different morphological traits that distinguish it from the species form. A true variety also breeds true.
Most importantly, in my opinion, is the fact that there are many plants that were once classified as a variety of a species that have since been elevated to species level themselves. If we don’t keep them separate by name they get bred together as if they were the same and we end up with a bunch of offspring that are not what we think they are. It makes a real mess for those who are trying to breed/collect true species or hybrids. Use Paphiopedilum malipoense as an example. At one time we had Paphiopedilum malipoense and Paphiopedilum malipoense var. jackii. If someone had bred them together in the past would they have been considered Paphiopedilum malipoense? How many crosses and back crosses between the two might have been made where the variety name might have been left off? How many ‘malipoense’ are out there that may not be pure? Paphiopedilum malipoense var. jackii has since been elevated to species level and is now considered a separate species... Paphiopedilum jackii. Today if you cross Paphiopedilum malipoense and Paphiopedilum jackii you get the primary hybrid named Paphiopedilum Marie Ponse. 

The cross (Paphiopedilum malipoense x Paphiopedilum Valerie Tonkin) is registered as Paphiopedilum Hsinying Po Tree but the cross between (Paphiopedilum jackii x Valerie Tonkin) is Paphiopedilum Dragon Charm. Might there be some plants labeled as Paphiopedilum Hsinying Po Tree that are actually (Paphiopedilum Marie Ponse x Paphiopedilum Valerie Tonkin) and therefore not Paphiopedilum Hsinying Po Tree?

The short story is if we keep everything labeled correctly and keep good records we can always make corrections later if we need to.
Other examples might be:
adductum and anitum
concolor and josianae
barbigerum and coccineum


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## BrucherT (Dec 4, 2019)

This was posted in an Australasian Facebook forum a couple days ago. It was thrilled because there’s also one for insigne (I have a mystery, bowdlerized-label insigne).


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## DrLeslieEe (Dec 5, 2019)

I agree with Pherd. The separation of varieties is important to distinguish the various types of villosums based on color markings, localities and genetic isolation evolution. They are all in the villosum complex and descend from the same ancestor. Like many of the complexes in the Paphiopedilum alliance, many have been elevated to species level, even though they started as mere variants of the type species. For example, we have new species outlaid in the recent Orchid Digest (2019 Volume 82-4) Paphiopedilum Annotations by Koopowitz that introduce the following gratixianum (also of the villosum complex) and villosum types as their own species ranking; _christensonianum, cornuatum, daoense, denssisinum, guangdongense_, and _stenolobum_. To keep these varieties named and separated are the key to maintaining species purity and correct registration of future hybrids.

Thanks to Hien for the article links.

And a nice pic of the var annamense from BrucherT. Might be villosum var fusco-roseum too.

Elf, if the leaves of the flower you showed have narrow leaves (less than 4 cm) and finely spotted, it may be a Paph. christensonianum or Paph. villosum fusco-roseum, and not annamense?

Jens, the official name for this variety is laichaunum based on the description on Die Orchidee by Olaf Gruss et al as well as on the offical WCSP (World Checklist in Kew).

Phred, I sent a message to AOS to clarify these issues with the previous awards mislabeled as annamense. As well as to ask what to do when I bring the plants in for judging this coming weekend (if I should label as laichaunum even though tag says annamense). I will keep you posted on this thread.


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## Guldal (Dec 5, 2019)

I stand corrected and bow in deference: laichauanum seems to be the validly published epithet...var. laichauense thus reduced to synonymity!


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## DrLeslieEe (Dec 6, 2019)

Jens, no need to bow in a healthy discussion and clarification of points discussed. All done in good faith and love of taxonomy!

I received message back from the AOS that the plants should be labeled correctly as var laichaunum. Wish me luck for judging on Saturday!

BTW does any own the var boxalii (syn. atratum)? I am looking for one with great markings like the one below on left pic from Orchids Limited.

https://www.orchidweb.com/orchids/paphiopedilum/species/paph-villosum-var-boxalii-syn-attratum


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## richgarrison (Dec 6, 2019)

not willing to crap shoot on their seedlings?.... 85$ seems in line with the rest of their pricing ;-)


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## DrLeslieEe (Dec 6, 2019)

I have very limited room to try to gamble. If they were albums yes, but nowadays I just procure the best ones LOL.


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## Elf (Dec 6, 2019)

DrLeslieEe said:


> Elf, if the leaves of the flower you showed have narrow leaves (less than 4 cm) and finely spotted, it may be a Paph. christensonianum or Paph. villosum fusco-roseum, and not annamense?



Thank you. Leaves are around 2.5 cm, but are not spotted. ??


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## DrLeslieEe (Dec 7, 2019)

Hmmm no spotting? Could be var fusco roseum then?


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## DrLeslieEe (Dec 7, 2019)

Unfortunately no awards to neither villosum var laichaunums. Flowers too small as first bloom seedlings. Next time. There were other same types there too. The judges had a great time relearning the new type vs annamense... 

Here are pics at judging of other 2 there for comparison. None got awarded for now.


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## Elf (Dec 7, 2019)

DrLeslieEe said:


> Hmmm no spotting? Could be var fusco roseum then?



That makes sense - in the nighttime flash photo I posted, the colors look much more intense than in daylight - I would say that the flower has an overall sort of dull pink color in the daylight - which translates to fusco roseum. Are there any other distinguishing factors to consider? Thanks for your knowledge on this topic!


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## DrLeslieEe (Dec 7, 2019)

Perhaps you can post day pics of flowers, plant and leave base? Let’s get a closer look


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## Elf (Dec 7, 2019)

DrLeslieEe said:


> Perhaps you can post day pics of flowers, plant and leave base? Let’s get a closer look



I absolutely will do that tomorrow


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## Elf (Dec 8, 2019)

DrLeslieEe said:


> Perhaps you can post day pics of flowers, plant and leave base? Let’s get a closer look



Here's my plant in question, and the first photo best demonstrates its natural daylight colors. The second photo (side view) best demonstrates its proportions. The foliage is 2.5cm at the widest point, and the flower is about 8cm both tall and wide. I got it from a lovely gentleman at an orchid society show this spring, labeled with just villosum. Thanks for your expertise in looking at this one!


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## Ozpaph (Dec 8, 2019)

I suppose it all depends on whether your a 'lumper' or a 'splitter'......................Im the former.


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## DrLeslieEe (Dec 9, 2019)

Better pics in daylight.It does look like the base of narrow leaves have light spotting. That combined with the white dorsal sepal and the red patch through the center gives this the var annamense type to me. Let's see what other think?


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## DrLeslieEe (Dec 9, 2019)

Ozpaph, I myself am a lumper. I consider all villosums, each with their distinct varieties. I don't think using phenotypes of floral colours and leaf width a good determination of raising them to species level, particularly if they can be distinctly traced to a recent common ancestor. That's just my opinion.


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## BrucherT (Dec 9, 2019)

White and cranberry dorsal = annamense, as far as I know.


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## Guldal (Dec 10, 2019)

I'm absoluttely with Leslie & Brucher in designating this plant as var. annamense!


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## DrLeslieEe (Dec 11, 2019)

Perhaps Olaf may give input if he is still on here?


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## BrucherT (Dec 11, 2019)

Guldal said:


> I'm absoluttely with Leslie & Brucher in designating this plant as var. annamense!


It was Olaf, wasn’t it, who pointed this distinction out the other day? I wouldn’t have known otherwise. Now I’m correcting people!


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## Elf (Dec 11, 2019)

Thanks for all the ID help with my little plant! I have learned so much from this wonderful thread. Now to wait for my other villosum to bloom to see what variety surprise it might be


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## howard peter martin (Dec 19, 2019)

here is my villosum annamense. I read from a source that this is actually v. laichaunum. any thoughts people?


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## Happypaphy7 (Dec 19, 2019)

Based on what I have been reading here, this is definitely not annamense which has white dorsal with dark purple center. 
It does look like what I had and what others are showing here, which is laichaunum.


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## Happypaphy7 (Dec 19, 2019)

DrLeslieEe said:


> Updated pic a week after it opened. Size is more open and the colour of DS intensified to a yellow background with deep chestnut overlay. I read that villosums can last 60 days. Is this true? My aureum villosum lasted only 30ish days.
> 
> View attachment 17133



The one I had, laichaunum, lasted about two months. I also had a very large villosum, which I have no idea what variety, but very large plant with large flower, a typical color pattern (sorry to be so vague, but it just looks like any common villosum haha). It was already in bloom at the time of purchase but lasted a good one month before starting to look tired. I think it is pretty much like complex hybrid which stays in bloom for a very long. I had insigne lasting over two months in bloom. Spicerianum only lasts barely one months for me, although one odd blooming did last for longer than a month. Mine blooms every year and it is always barely 30 days in bloom. 

Complex hybrids typically lasted 2-3months for me. There were two exceptions to this and they lasted for 6-7months! That was shocking!


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## DrLeslieEe (Dec 20, 2019)

Howard, is this from 'Chuck's Warrior' x self?
This is definitely the laichaunum form.

Happy, 6-7 months??? Wow... longest for me was the green complexes that lasted about 3 months.


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## howard peter martin (Dec 20, 2019)

thank you Leslie, yes it is the 'Chuck's Warrior' x self. I'm glad thats cleared up. there is one in the new magazine that was awarded anamense and it looks laichaunum form


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## GuRu (Dec 20, 2019)

This recently described variety laichaunum of P. villosum is a real stunner and perhaps the pretties of all P. villosum types, at least for me. All photos here in this thread show really lovely flowers. Some of them deserve to be awarded in the future.


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## Phred (Dec 20, 2019)

I have several of these. I had one improperly awarded as var. annamense before I got AOS to agree that var. laichaunum was a legitimate variety. Now I’m working on getting the award changed from annamense to laichaunum. #2-5 are first time blooms Once they bloom again I’ll see if I can get any awarded correctly.


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## GuRu (Dec 20, 2019)

Wow....#4 that's my favourite.


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## DrLeslieEe (Dec 20, 2019)

Nice brood you have there!


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## Phred (Dec 21, 2019)

howard peter martin said:


> thank you Leslie, yes it is the 'Chuck's Warrior' x self. I'm glad thats cleared up. there is one in the new magazine that was awarded anamense and it looks laichaunum form


Hi Howard
What is the name of the awarded one in the magazine?


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## Hien (Dec 21, 2019)

Phred said:


> I have several of these. I had one improperly awarded as var. annamense before I got AOS to agree that var. laichaunum was a legitimate variety. Now I’m working on getting the award changed from annamense to laichaunum. #2-5 are first time blooms Once they bloom again I’ll see if I can get any awarded correctly.
> View attachment 17347
> View attachment 17351
> View attachment 17352
> ...


wow, so many to behold


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## BrucherT (Dec 21, 2019)

Phred said:


> I have several of these. I had one improperly awarded as var. annamense before I got AOS to agree that var. laichaunum was a legitimate variety. Now I’m working on getting the award changed from annamense to laichaunum. #2-5 are first time blooms Once they bloom again I’ll see if I can get any awarded correctly.
> View attachment 17347
> View attachment 17351
> View attachment 17352
> ...


Don’t suppose you’d care to part with villosum number 4


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## Elf (Jan 20, 2020)

The flower on my little annamense finally fell off today - that was a nice long run of 2 months, as it started blooming around November 20.


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## Phred (Jan 20, 2020)

BrucherT said:


> Don’t suppose you’d care to part with villosum number 4


Private message me


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## KateL (Jan 21, 2020)

Hi,
(My first post . . ., not sure about how to upload images, sorry). Based on this thread, it appears that my Paph. villosum is not fma. amnamense, notwithstanding the tag. On a positive note, it has a spread of 10.8 cm and this plant gave me two flowers on its second bloom.
View attachment 17899
View attachment 17900


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## monocotman (Jan 21, 2020)

Kate, welcome. Lovely flower,
David


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## Phred (Jan 21, 2020)

KateL said:


> Hi,
> (My first post . . ., not sure about how to upload images, sorry). Based on this thread, it appears that my Paph. villosum is not fma. amnamense, notwithstanding the tag. On a positive note, it has a spread of 10.8 cm and this plant gave me two flowers on its second bloom.
> View attachment 17899
> View attachment 17900


Hi KateL
You are correct... your plant is not var anamense. Paph villosum var. anamense has a white background color on the dorsal not yellow. Yours appears to be var. laichaunum.


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## KateL (Jan 21, 2020)

Phred said:


> Hi KateL
> You are correct... your plant is not var anamense. Paph villosum var. anamense has a white background color on the dorsal not yellow. Yours appears to be var. laichaunum.



Thanks, Phred! I am glad I finally joined the talk.


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## Don I (Jan 21, 2020)

Welcome aboard Kate. Sometimes I think I could make a collection of just villosum. 
Don


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## DrLeslieEe (Aug 1, 2020)

So update... nine months later this plant is reblooming. About the same size with deeper color compared to the first bloom. I’m surprised it’s doing it in summer and not late fall as most do. Not complaining though... 

Presenting Paphiopedilum villosum var laichaunum ‘Web of Lies’ denoting the numerous versions (formas and variations) it had to go through before final classification.


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## DrLeslieEe (Aug 1, 2020)

KateL said:


> Hi,
> (My first post . . ., not sure about how to upload images, sorry). Based on this thread, it appears that my Paph. villosum is not fma. amnamense, notwithstanding the tag. On a positive note, it has a spread of 10.8 cm and this plant gave me two flowers on its second bloom.
> View attachment 17899
> View attachment 17900


Somehow I missed this post. 

Nice bloom Kate (belated congrats) and welcome (belated again LOL).


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## Phred (Aug 1, 2020)

Hi Leslie
Congratulations on the reblooming. I’ve got several in bud right now. Also, it’s taken me a couple years to get my villosum, awarded as var. anamense in 2018, re-classified as var. laichaunum. It took the first year for me to get the AOS to accept laichaunum as a variety after I provided all the available literature to them. Now after a number of emails this year they have changed my award to Paph villosum var laichaunum ‘Lily’ HCC/AOS. I just received the corrected award certificate last Thursday.


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## DrLeslieEe (Aug 1, 2020)

Phred said:


> Hi Leslie
> Congratulations on the reblooming. I’ve got several in bud right now. Also, it’s taken me a couple years to get my villosum, awarded as var. anamense in 2018, re-classified as var. laichaunum. It took the first year for me to get the AOS to accept laichaunum as a variety after I provided all the available literature to them. Now after a number of emails this year they have changed my award to Paph villosum var laichaunum ‘Lily’ HCC/AOS. I just received the corrected award certificate last Thursday.


Finally! Thanks for your perseverance that subsequent same type will be judged correctly under this variety. I hope your Lily reblooms even better to get rescored, ideally to the AM it deserves.


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## BrucherT (Aug 1, 2020)

DrLeslieEe said:


> So update... nine months later this plant is reblooming. About the same size with deeper color compared to the first bloom. I’m surprised it’s doing it in summer and not late fall as most do. Not complaining though...
> 
> Presenting Paphiopedilum villosum var laichaunum ‘Web of Lies’ denoting the numerous versions (formas and variations) it had to go through before final classification.
> 
> ...


Loving the name! Ha ha ha.


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## blondie (Aug 2, 2020)

Very nice lovely markings


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## Teresa Koncolor (Aug 3, 2020)

DrLeslieEe said:


> So update... nine months later this plant is reblooming. About the same size with deeper color compared to the first bloom. I’m surprised it’s doing it in summer and not late fall as most do. Not complaining though...
> 
> Presenting Paphiopedilum villosum var laichaunum ‘Web of Lies’ denoting the numerous versions (formas and variations) it had to go through before final classification.
> 
> ...


Beautiful bloom


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## DrLeslieEe (Sep 10, 2020)

Just a quick update. These villosums do flower a long time with no sign of waning. Wonder how long it will last. It’s in its 6th week now. I think the color gets deeper too?


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## Guldal (Sep 10, 2020)

Leslie, those colour are to die for - love the clonal name, [email protected]


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## DrLeslieEe (Dec 17, 2021)

It’s been more than a year now since this plant bloomed. I saw a bud in October and flower finally opened. 

Presenting villosum var. laichaunum ‘Web of Lies’ for 2021!


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## GuRu (Dec 19, 2021)

Great flower, Leslie........and you create alway really funny clonal names.


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## werner.freitag (Dec 19, 2021)

agreed, great flower, even better name..................


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## DrLeslieEe (Dec 20, 2021)

Thanks guys!


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## Guldal (Dec 21, 2021)

It's really a great clone, Leslie! With almost chameleonlike propensities: here the lip/ slipper is darker; there the slipper with an all most pastellike quality and the dorsal centrally, very darkly coloured. Very nice, and very interesting!

Ps. I'm a bit loss, whether I should wish you a Merry Christmas - or if a Happy Holidays would be the more appropriate address? (I know Indonesia is predominantly muslim - but I wonder, what denomination most Borneans belong to: Islam, Buddhism and/or something third?!)


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## DrLeslieEe (Dec 21, 2021)

Thanks Jen’s, it’s a nice reliable clone that blooms every year. What more can I ask for? 

Malaysia is mostly Islamic but I’m a non-denominational ‘agnostician’ lol (Catholic school trained hehe).


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## Guldal (Dec 26, 2021)

DrLeslieEe said:


> Malaysia is mostly Islamic but I’m a non-denominational ‘agnostician’ lol (Catholic school trained hehe).


Sorry, Leslie, for putting my foot in my mouth by confusing the nationality of the different parts of Borneo! 

If I had to label my own stance, it would be equally confusing. Basically taoist/buddhist (but more with respect to a philosophical tradition and when it comes to everyday practice), and I think my position when the discussion turns to the religious sphere might be exactly the same as yours: non-denominational agnosticism with a faint leaning towards an enlightened catholicism (Vatican II - and without the distorted sexual moral).
So: Happy holidays from one DA to another!


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