# Marble chips on Kovachii's potting mix?



## Luca69 (Feb 22, 2016)

Dear ST friends
I need an advice on Kovachii' culture. 
I live in Rome, a big city but far from limestone quarry. I'm not able to find limestone chips, but I have found Marble chips. 
This is chemical analysis
CaCO3 97%
Ca 37%
Sio2 0,38%
First thing hard to understand is that addition is not 100% but more!! I receive documents from 2 different stone quarry and results are more or less the same. 
My questions are:
- may I use Marble chips instead of limestone chips in potting mix for my Kovachii?
- Would you use it alone or togheter with granite chips?
- would you add crushed oyster in any case?
Thanks to everybody


Luca


----------



## Linus_Cello (Feb 22, 2016)

What about oyster shells instead for Ca, etc? They sell them often to feed chickens.


----------



## trdyl (Feb 22, 2016)

Hello Luca,

I do not know about granite or marble chips. I do know that crushed oyster shell does very well in my application with Phrag kovachii.


----------



## Erythrone (Feb 22, 2016)

Don't think marble will have the same effect in the mix than limestone. It is much stable IMO. 

I grow 2 kovachii and I don't grow them with limestone, granite, or marble. For extra calcium, I use crushed oyster shell.


----------



## Stone (Feb 22, 2016)

Luca69 said:


> > This is chemical analysis
> > CaCO3 97%
> > Ca 37%
> > Sio2 0,38%First thing hard to understand is that addition is not 100% but more!! I receive documents from 2 different stone quarry and results are more or less the same.
> ...


----------



## tomkalina (Feb 22, 2016)

I'd suggest using dolomite powder as well if you can get it.


----------



## gonewild (Feb 22, 2016)

For growing P.kovachii marble will not be as good as limestone, it is less reactive when in contact with the roots. 

Oyster shell will give equal results to limestone chips.

I tested all 3 on kovachii and that was what I learned.

And I tested using dolomite powder and it was no better than using high Ca content in the liquid fertilizer.

Best results were when the media contained physical chips of limestone or oyster shell with a content of more than 20% and less than 80%. And Ca content of the fertilizer is plentiful.


----------



## Luca69 (Feb 23, 2016)

Thanks to everybody 
@ Gonewild
I know that Marble is less reactive. In any case i have put a small amount of washed marble chips in a cup of pure water (22ppm) and after 4 days ppm is 53, so I think that something has been released. Using oyster shell the problem is that they are wash out easily from the bottom of pot, considering the fact that pots are in an ebb and flow system. 
I thought to use marble and oyster shell togheter to give calcium from both and the benefits of the contact thanks to marble chips. 
Which are main symptoms of calcium deficence?


Luca


----------



## PaphMadMan (Feb 23, 2016)

Limestone varies in chemical composition. It can be almost pure calcium carbonate, as your marble is. Blend in enough magnesium carbonate and we call it dolomite. If it is more granular it could be called sandstone, especially if there is some quartz or feldspar content too. There is no clear line between any of them, and they can contain almost any other minerals in some quantity too. They are sedimentary rocks, so whatever wears off rock and flows downstream or builds up on the sea floor from shells etc. can go into limestone. Marble is what limestone becomes given enough pressure, heat and time. The chemical composition does not change so can be anything in the limestone range, it just becomes harder and more crystalline, so the surface area and reactivity is reduced by some amount. Much of what a sculptor or builder would call marble a geologist would call limestone. Obviously, this all makes generalizations about them hard to make. If what you have available is some form of marble just be aware you may need more of it in the mix, or in smaller pieces, to get the same results. The activity will depend on media, water chemistry and watering practices too, adding another set of variables. Use what you can get, observe the results, and make changes if needed. Anyone's conditions are a unique experiment.


----------



## gonewild (Feb 23, 2016)

Luca69 said:


> Thanks to everybody
> @ Gonewild
> 
> Which are main symptoms of calcium deficence?
> ...



If you are applying fertilizer that contains calcium I doubt you will see any obvious sign of calcium deficiency on kovachii.

What I observed was that when the media contains chunks (chips) of limestone both root growth and leaf growth increased compared to calcium supplied as liquid or powder.

I don't think the increased growth was because of overall pH or increased availability of dissolved calcium. It seems that the roots benefit from direct contact with the limestone surfaces. 

So the direct answer to you question is the symptom you would notice is slow growth without the limestone.
(oyster shell is equal to limestone in this instance)

For marble my experience was with broken marble tiles that had different pretty colors. The colors are from some other minerals that may or may not have a different effect on the plants. Maybe better than plain limestone if you are lucky.


----------



## valenzino (Feb 23, 2016)

Ciao Luca,il marmo bianco tipo carrara funziona bene anche se la dolomite,che non si trova facilmente,funziona meglio....l'alabastro e' troppo morbido e si scioglie troppo in fretta...
Comunque a mia esperienza la cosa piu' importante e' la continua disponibilita' di acqua e di aria a livello radicale,anche se il sasso calcareo aiuta le radici a costruire "la strada" da seguire,e quindi promuove molto lo sviluppo della pianta,senza un flusso continuo di acqua e aria nel vaso,la pianta rallenta molto la crescita...
@ GONEWILD
we have pure white marble in italy and it works well...I tried also alabaster but its too soft and dissolve too fast giveing too much...
The good thing of Carrara White marble that contains also Magnesium so helps the overall equilibrium(CaMg(Co3)2-1,76% and MgO 1,32% mol).

kovachii can be happy cause there is also a percentage of Gold!(seen small pieces included in blocks just cutted) :rollhappy: :drool:


----------



## Luca69 (Feb 23, 2016)

gonewild said:


> If you are applying fertilizer that contains calcium I doubt you will see any obvious sign of calcium deficiency on kovachii.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'm asking about symptom of calcium deficence, because I'm trying to understand why my Kovachii have bright green leaves, instead of dark green, leaves are thinner and softner than usual plants I have seen. 
My fertilizer is K-lite alternate to an european version of Msu, both with calcium inside. 
Here you can see left and middle ones have been grown by myself and right one is a new one I have bought just some weeks ago. 
What do you think can be?











Luca


----------



## gonewild (Feb 23, 2016)

valenzino said:


> kovachii can be happy cause there is also a percentage of Gold!(seen small pieces included in blocks just cutted) :rollhappy: :drool:


 
Gold may be the secret for kovachii. Geology in the natural habitat of kovachii is rich in gold. Maybe the kovachii plant is the guardian of Paititi! We just need to go look where the flowers are looking and we will be rich.


----------



## gonewild (Feb 23, 2016)

Luca69 said:


> I'm asking about symptom of calcium deficence, because I'm trying to understand why my Kovachii have bright green leaves, instead of dark green, leaves are thinner and softner than usual plants I have seen.
> My fertilizer is K-lite alternate to an european version of Msu, both with calcium inside.
> Here you can see left and middle ones have been grown by myself and right one is a new one I have bought just some weeks ago.
> What do you think can be?
> Luca



There are so many possible variables that could make the difference all we can do is guess.
What strength is you fertilizer applied at? How often?
My first guess is that the new plant had more nutrients available.


----------



## Luca69 (Feb 23, 2016)

gonewild said:


> There are so many possible variables that could make the difference all we can do is guess.
> 
> What strength is you fertilizer applied at? How often?
> 
> My first guess is that the new plant had more nutrients available.




I fertilize one time a week at 250ppm (total), using 90% rain water and 10% tap water. 
Ebb and flow system runs one time a day for 15 minutes with pure rain water. 
I agree with you that new plant had more nutrients, my doubt is if mine cannot assume all nutrients due to some deficence 


Luca


----------



## gonewild (Feb 23, 2016)

Luca69 said:


> I fertilize one time a week at 250ppm (total), using 90% rain water and 10% tap water.
> Ebb and flow system runs one time a day for 15 minutes with pure rain water.
> I agree with you that new plant had more nutrients, my doubt is if mine cannot assume all nutrients due to some deficence
> Luca



Yours can't assume more nutrients mainly because you are not supplying them.
I would add nutrients to the ebb and flow. Basically your nutrient supply is only allowing the plants the needed nutrients for one day per week and only for a duration of time from when you apply nutrients until the ebb flows.

At low nutrient levels (250ppm total is low) plants need to be in constant supply of food to grow constantly. Feed them one day per week and they will grow fast...one day per week.

Try supplementing your fertilizing with Calcium Nitrate once per week between the "K-lite" feedings. Mix the Calcium nitrate at about 500ppm. adding also Magnesium sulfate would help.
or 
add your "k-lite" formula to the ebb flow water.
or 
double the strength of your weekly fertilizer.

Then to further consider why your plants are lighter green consider the temperature and light intensity you have.... are you growing under artificial light? The growth on your plants looks a little thin and elongated compared to the new plant. More light and more nutrients may change that.


----------



## Linus_Cello (Feb 23, 2016)

Luca69 said:


> Using oyster shell the problem is that they are wash out easily from the bottom of pot, considering the fact that pots are in an ebb and flow system.



Why don't you make a packet of oyster shell wrapped in cheese cloth (tied with string)? Then the oyster shell won't wash away?


----------



## trdyl (Feb 23, 2016)

Or partly block drain holes in the pot with something to keep the medium from coming out.


----------



## gonewild (Feb 23, 2016)

Or use coarser oyster shells.


----------



## Luca69 (Feb 23, 2016)

gonewild said:


> Yours can't assume more nutrients mainly because you are not supplying them.
> 
> I would add nutrients to the ebb and flow. Basically your nutrient supply is only allowing the plants the needed nutrients for one day per week and only for a duration of time from when you apply nutrients until the ebb flows.
> 
> ...




I thought that Kovachii needs low nutrients, I have some other pk hybrids that are grow in same way and they grow well. So do you think Kovachii species must eat more? 
I'll do in this way. I'll begin to add one feeding with calcium nitrate and Magnesum sulfate. Can I mix them togheter or is better alternate one week each one?
I grow them in greenhouse, no artificial light but I think light is enough. Multifloral paphio (Roth and Saint Swithin) are flowering at these light levels. 


Luca


----------



## Luca69 (Feb 23, 2016)

trdyl said:


> Or partly block drain holes in the pot with something to keep the medium from coming out.




I have done, but in any case they tend to stay in lower part of the pot


Luca


----------



## gonewild (Feb 23, 2016)

Luca69 said:


> I thought that Kovachii needs low nutrients, I have some other pk hybrids that are grow in same way and they grow well. So do you think Kovachii species must eat more?
> I'll do in this way. I'll begin to add one feeding with calcium nitrate and Magnesum sulfate. Can I mix them togheter or is better alternate one week each one?
> I grow them in greenhouse, no artificial light but I think light is enough. Multifloral paphio (Roth and Saint Swithin) are flowering at these light levels.
> Luca



I grew my kovachii at high nutrient rates (125ppm N) and that was the level that was best. And that was constant daily doses with overhead fresh water mists to keep a flush through. This was before K-lite was conceived and I used a base nutrient supply of the MSU formula with the Calcium Nitrate supplement plus a few extra changes. The plants grew extremely well. 

My opinion is that all or most Phrags like high nutrient levels as long as they have a good strong growing environment. You can search back in the forum archives and find threads where I detailed the growth and methods.

You can mix the Calcium nitrate and Magnesium sulfate in the same container at the concentration you will apply to the plants.


----------



## gonewild (Feb 23, 2016)

Luca69 said:


> I have done, but in any case they tend to stay in lower part of the pot
> 
> 
> Luca



Your oyster shell is finer that what I am used to. Based on the fineness of the shell I would use your marble chips to get a coarser more open media.


----------



## Stone (Feb 23, 2016)

Luca69 said:


> > I'm asking about symptom of calcium deficence, because I'm trying to understand why my Kovachii have bright green leaves, instead of dark green, leaves are thinner and softner than usual plants I have seen.
> > My fertilizer is K-lite alternate to an european version of Msu, both with calcium inside.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Bjorn (Feb 24, 2016)

On my monitor the kovachii leaves look perfectly healthy. They look grass-green and that should be fine I think. The plant to the right is in my opinion too dark, has it got an overdose of N or too little light?
Lance; I know that you posted a lot of kovachii seedlings many years ago what happened to those?. Did they grow up and flower?


----------



## gonewild (Feb 24, 2016)

Bjorn said:


> Lance; I know that you posted a lot of kovachii seedlings many years ago what happened to those?. Did they grow up and flower?



I grew about 160 plants, as they reached blooming size I sold some to individual collectors. A few bloomed while I was out of the country and I did not get to see them or even a picture. 
When we decided to move back to Peru I sold the entire lot back to Piping Rock, Glenn bought them because they were larger than any he had growing. Now where I'm at it is just too hot to keep them alive more than 6 months.


----------



## Bjorn (Feb 24, 2016)

Thanks Lance, just wondered what happened to them


----------



## Luca69 (Feb 24, 2016)

Stone said:


> Luca69 said:
> 
> 
> > It could be a lot of things but if you are using all nitrate, that might be a reason for the different colour.
> ...


----------



## Bjorn (Feb 24, 2016)

If the leaves are very thin, could they be mislabeled? kovachi does not have very thick leaves, but they are quite hard to the touch.(perhaps not the best explantion)


----------



## gonewild (Feb 24, 2016)

Luca69 said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > I know that all nitrate N could get light green leaves, and I'll get some ammoniun or urea fertilizer, but the color isn't the only difference. Leaves are also thiner and softer than most plants I have seen on ST or by myself.
> ...


----------



## phraggy (Feb 24, 2016)

Luca69 said:


> I fertilize one time a week at 250ppm (total), using 90% rain water and 10% tap water.
> Ebb and flow system runs one time a day for 15 minutes with pure rain water.
> I agree with you that new plant had more nutrients, my doubt is if mine cannot assume all nutrients due to some deficence
> 
> ...



In my opinion using calcium nitrate together with liquid seaweed gives you the calcium you require . This type of calcium is the easiest to be taken up by the roots which, in turn, makes the nutrients from the liquid seaweed easily assimilated by the roots. I may be wrong but in my experience it seems to be working very well.

Ed


----------



## phraggy (Feb 24, 2016)

gonewild said:


> I grew my kovachii at high nutrient rates (125ppm N) and that was the level that was best. And that was constant daily doses with overhead fresh water mists to keep a flush through. This was before K-lite was conceived and I used a base nutrient supply of the MSU formula with the Calcium Nitrate supplement plus a few extra changes. The plants grew extremely well.
> 
> My opinion is that all or most Phrags like high nutrient levels as long as they have a good strong growing environment. You can search back in the forum archives and find threads where I detailed the growth and methods.
> 
> You can mix the Calcium nitrate and Magnesium sulfate in the same container at the concentration you will apply to the plants.



Good advise Lance but I would not mix the calcium nitrate together with the Epsom Salts which will cause them precipitation. Better to dissolve them in separate containers and then put them together.

Ed


----------



## gonewild (Feb 24, 2016)

phraggy said:


> Good advise Lance but I would not mix the calcium nitrate together with the Epsom Salts which will cause them precipitation. Better to dissolve them in separate containers and then put them together.
> 
> Ed



I guess I assumed that is what he would basically do. Only mix them together in the fertilizer tank at the rate that goes on the plants.
Dissolve them in separate containers and add them one at a time to the bulk water. 
There should be no precipitation at the diluted rate, or at least not much.


----------



## gonewild (Feb 24, 2016)

phraggy said:


> In my opinion using calcium nitrate together with liquid seaweed gives you the calcium you require . This type of calcium is the easiest to be taken up by the roots which, in turn, makes the nutrients from the liquid seaweed easily assimilated by the roots. I may be wrong but in my experience it seems to be working very well.
> 
> Ed



Sounds good. Maybe the seaweed/Calcium nitrate combo is creating chelated calcium making it more easily available to the roots.


----------



## phraggy (Feb 24, 2016)

gonewild said:


> Sounds good. Maybe the seaweed/Calcium nitrate combo is creating chelated calcium making it more easily available to the roots.



Spot on Lance.

Ed


----------



## consettbay2003 (Feb 24, 2016)

phraggy said:


> Spot on Lance.
> 
> Ed


How much calcium nitrate and how much seaweed extract do you recommend per gallon of RO water and what is the approximate EC reading of the final solution?


----------



## Stone (Feb 25, 2016)

gonewild said:


> Luca69 said:
> 
> 
> > With kovachii I noticed that increasing the ammonia nitrogen was not a benefit and produced softer and weaker foliage. (The same observation applies to besseae hybrids as well.)
> ...


----------



## gonewild (Feb 25, 2016)

Stone said:


> gonewild said:
> 
> 
> > Increasing from what to what?
> ...


----------



## valenzino (Feb 25, 2016)

gonewild said:


> Gold may be the secret for kovachii. Geology in the natural habitat of kovachii is rich in gold. Maybe the kovachii plant is the guardian of Paititi! We just need to go look where the flowers are looking and we will be rich.



Great,when you decide to go i'll go with you!!!I'll help you carry the Paititi Gold!!!
I bet the city will be just under that kovachii alba waiting there!!!!


----------



## gonewild (Feb 25, 2016)

valenzino said:


> Great,when you decide to go i'll go with you!!!I'll help you carry the Paititi Gold!!!
> I bet the city will be just under that kovachii alba waiting there!!!!



And I bet the alba would kill us before we could carry the gold out!


----------



## valenzino (Feb 25, 2016)

gonewild said:


> And I bet the alba would kill us before we could carry the gold out!



:rollhappy::rollhappy::rollhappy:

aggressive kovachii with a broken bottle in one petal and a teser in the other one!!!oke::rollhappy:


----------



## Stone (Feb 25, 2016)

gonewild said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > From very little to too much.
> ...


----------



## gonewild (Feb 25, 2016)

Stone said:


> gonewild said:
> 
> 
> > Well you need to be careful with ammonium nitrate as it's all N. If you just add the AN without reducing the same amount of N from the Calnitrate you could easily reach a stage where you're overdosing the N and end up with the above symptoms. I use something similar to the MSU but with the Calcium nitrate separate so I can halve the Calnitrate and increase the ammonium nitrate. (both to reduce free Calcium and increase NH4 - most Ca is now supplied as lime). I have no issues with sappy or weak growth with anything. On top of that I cut the above mix with 50% urea based feed so there's plenty of ammonium going in. (relatively) And plenty of K too by the way...Ha!
> ...


----------



## Ozpaph (Feb 26, 2016)

PaphMadMan said:


> Limestone varies in chemical composition. It can be almost pure calcium carbonate, as your marble is. Blend in enough magnesium carbonate and we call it dolomite. If it is more granular it could be called sandstone, especially if there is some quartz or feldspar content too. There is no clear line between any of them, and they can contain almost any other minerals in some quantity too. They are sedimentary rocks, so whatever wears off rock and flows downstream or builds up on the sea floor from shells etc. can go into limestone. Marble is what limestone becomes given enough pressure, heat and time. The chemical composition does not change so can be anything in the limestone range, it just becomes harder and more crystalline, so the surface area and reactivity is reduced by some amount. Much of what a sculptor or builder would call marble a geologist would call limestone. Obviously, this all makes generalizations about them hard to make. If what you have available is some form of marble just be aware you may need more of it in the mix, or in smaller pieces, to get the same results. The activity will depend on media, water chemistry and watering practices too, adding another set of variables. Use what you can get, observe the results, and make changes if needed. Anyone's conditions are a unique experiment.



very interesting and helpful, thanks.


----------

