# International Paph Breeding Trends



## chrismende (Nov 12, 2013)

Hi, all!
I'm going to give a brief overview of the current state of Paph hybridization for a local orchid society here and would enjoy input from as many of you as possible on what your top few trends would be. Quote specific hybrids, breeders, etc. This should be fun!


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## NYEric (Nov 12, 2013)

No it's not! 
Look at it this way. Breeding with hangianum, adductum, gigantifolium, etc...ILLEGAL in the USA!! I don't see any fun in that.


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## ehanes7612 (Nov 12, 2013)

since when is adductum illegal?


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## NYEric (Nov 12, 2013)

I meant anitum, one of those stupid mulitflorals! Forgive me; I'm upset.. Just thinking about idiotic CITES enforcement...Argh!! :viking:


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## Chicago Chad (Nov 12, 2013)

Eric- if I was to ever be cornered on the anitum issue, I would have to go back to Kew's original description that it is at most, a variety of adductum.

I would reiterate that any variety of a legal species is also legal/ no paperwork needed/ ect.

*My belief* is that anyone prosecuted on anitums (if it ever happens) will not be convicted as a result of there own inconsistencies.

Chris- I think that the breeding trends are influenced from Taiwan for the most part. certainly with MFs and parvis. Hangianum being the most influential right now. Which as Eric said, is all disappointing that the US cannot *really* compete.


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## NYEric (Nov 12, 2013)

I apologize for my digression. 
Breeding for dark color dorsals in multifloral plants will be influenced by anitum. Round shaped blooms will come from hangianum, these will come from Taiwan growers (In-charm, etc). Hangianum will take the place of emersonii in hybrids to make faster blooming plants.


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## Chicago Chad (Nov 12, 2013)

well said


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## reivilos (Nov 12, 2013)

I've got the whole RHS paph register as of April 2013, if you're interested. You could see for yourself what the current trends are, and what has never been registered.
That's public data after all.


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## chrismende (Nov 13, 2013)

OK - so that went pffftt! 
Apart from the envy of countries not under strict CITES, I'd love to hear from you about specifics!
In the realm of multis, for instance, is the only thing everyone is looking for the dark dorsals? Wider dorsals? Longer long petals?
In parvis, is the only matter at hand substituting hangianum for emersonii?
How about brachys? Is it all about blending the spots on bellatulum into a dark solid color? And flattening out cuppiness in niveum? And creating darker yellow on anything with pale yellow?
Is there actually any momentum in the teacup breeding? Will judges ever really accept them?
Apart from "Taiwan" how about Japanese breeders? I know we don't really have access to their plants, but don't they do some particularly nice complex breeding?
I'd love Paph breeders from other countries to join in this discussion! Those in Taiwan and in Japan as well as Germany: what are your breeding goals these days?


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## Justin (Nov 13, 2013)

Line breeding of species for improved form...bigger, darker, rounder, and flatter. line breeding of rothschildianum in the US and Japan...leucochilum seems to be big as well.


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## Chicago Chad (Nov 13, 2013)

I also think thaianum is important for decreasing plant size.


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## NYEric (Nov 13, 2013)

reivilos said:


> I've got the whole RHS paph register as of April 2013, if you're interested. You could see for yourself what the current trends are, and what has never been registered.
> That's public data after all.



It would be cool to show registration by country or hybridizer here. 



chrismende said:


> OK - so that went pffftt!
> Apart from the envy of countries not under strict CITES, I'd love to hear from you about specifics!
> In the realm of multis, for instance, is the only thing everyone is looking for the dark dorsals? Wider dorsals? Longer long petals?
> In parvis, is the only matter at hand substituting hangianum for emersonii?
> ...





Chicago Chad said:


> I also think thaianum is important for decreasing plant size.



Those last to points are interesting but not many people seem to be going that way, in fact I've seen thaianum line bred plants getting bigger. It would be nice to see helenae/barbigerum x thaianum x a parvi crosses. 
We know Brachy breeding is moving toward specific patterns and fully red plants. Definietly sanderianum hybrids are coming out that show longer petal.
And BTW, it's not envy. Only people who don't have get that! oke:


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## Chicago Chad (Nov 13, 2013)

> in fact I've seen thaianum line bred plants getting bigger



so are you saying that line bred species are getting larger in cultivation than in situ plants or that line breeding with a thaianum parent is not reducing hybrid plant size?


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## Dido (Nov 13, 2013)

I think tranlimenianum could get importent in breeding

Would love to see more hybrids with armeniacum


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## NYEric (Nov 13, 2013)

Chicago Chad said:


> so are you saying that line bred species are getting larger in cultivation than in situ plants



This, and also than older plants. I saw some new ones that were as big as niveums!


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## Trithor (Nov 13, 2013)

I think there is a very big difference between what paph enthusiasts are looking for and what the pot plant industry is looking for. Also what enthusiasts are looking for is not always the same as what judges are looking for. So to get an answer to your question, you would have to identify which facet you are looking for trends in, or is it a general question?


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## TyroneGenade (Nov 13, 2013)

I'm not sure there are trends other than larger, flatter, brighter complexes. That is the only observable long-term trends. There are "fads" drive by new species but most of these just seem to merge into complex breeding. For example, consider armeniacum: it has been crossed into almost every species with some lovely results but most of the 2nd generation crosses are taking place in the complex line. Go see DrOrchid's breeding on orchidweb.

I must confess to be dumping maudiae types into "complex" as, again, most of the popular crosses are not very complex. Most of the inroads with these seem to be driven by the availability of new or rare species but, again, there is a lot of action on the front merging the maudiae types with complex line---consider the crosses with charlesworthii in the back ground to get larger, rounder, flatter, brighter dorsals...

Same thing for Parvie and Brachy breeding: larger, flatter, rounder, brighter/darker color...

Multi breeding seems to revolve around roths: taller, bigger, flatter, wider, longer-petals. These are now getting pretty complex as well the goals is either stonei-contrast or roth-size and -deportment. To my eye it seems breeding with sanderianum the goal is to get the long petal genes and then breed all the other traits out in favor of the roth genes. But now most breeding seems to be producing plants that are mostly identical. Only bulldog-complex breeding is actually producing something like a trend. There is certainly a divergence now between big and small but otherwise: rounder, flatter, brighter color.


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## paphioboy (Nov 13, 2013)

Trithor said:


> I think there is a very big difference between what paph enthusiasts are looking for and what the pot plant industry is looking for. Also what enthusiasts are looking for is not always the same as what judges are looking for. So to get an answer to your question, you would have to identify which facet you are looking for trends in, or is it a general question?



I agree with Gary. The Taiwanese approach has been mentioned. Paph growers in Thailand seem to be either line-breeding native species (bellatulum, godefroyae, leucochilum, niveum, exul) or remaking known crosses. Some growers are remaking intersectional primary hybrids, some are not too bad (exul x bellatulum, exul x philippinense, niveum x villosum). There was one (godefroyae x spicerianum) which I thought was interesting, but my friend personally thinks is disgusting.


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## TyroneGenade (Nov 13, 2013)

paphioboy said:


> Some growers are remaking intersectional primary hybrids, some are not too bad (exul x bellatulum, exul x philippinense, niveum x villosum). There was one (godefroyae x spicerianum) which I thought was interesting, but my friend personally thinks is disgusting.



I think all those crosses you mention are lovely! Even the Paph Vera (godefroyae x spicerianum). Looking at the exul crosses this species has now moved to the top of my "want list".


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## Trithor (Nov 14, 2013)

The pot plant industry breeds for small plant with a long lasting flower (or a series of blooms as in cochlo hybrids). They have to be cheap to produce (read quick to develop and flower). 
Paph fanciers have different tastes, both from the average pot plan tbuyer and from each other. With this group, price (again time to flowering being a factor, as well as ease of breeding and production) are not the most important factor, and neither is ease of culture. For this group 'line bred' plants feature quite prominently. In Multis I would say that adductum/anitum are the new speed.
Judges look for (admittedly not all judges) certain trait, the shape, colour and size are very important in getting an award. I personally like something 'different', and that 'different' does not necessarily fall within the award parameters. There are a number of hybrids which have never been awarded or if so very rarely, but are still popular with enthusiasts.


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## reivilos (Nov 14, 2013)

https://app.box.com/s/trvc9fe6q1qp0chnz9jp

Have fun.


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## mormodes (Nov 14, 2013)

Talk to Dennis Olivas


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## Trithor (Nov 14, 2013)

reivilos said:


> https://app.box.com/s/trvc9fe6q1qp0chnz9jp
> 
> Have fun.



Your function has developed a problem, so I was unable to have any fun at all?


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## NYEric (Nov 15, 2013)

Revils, "server developed a problem"!


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## reivilos (Nov 15, 2013)

You mean you're unable to download ?


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## Chicago Chad (Nov 15, 2013)

yes. I couldn't either. I think you have to be a member.


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## reivilos (Nov 15, 2013)

This is such a pain to share a file nowadays! I can't believe it.
Here is the google doc link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2-aYy92nudiQjVCVUtZZ0I3d0E/edit?usp=sharing


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## Chicago Chad (Nov 15, 2013)

Thanks for giving it another shot. This one pulled up right away.


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## NYEric (Nov 15, 2013)

I saw this before. Interesting to see whom is registering what!!


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## Leo Schordje (Nov 15, 2013)

A lot of information, thanks


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## chrismende (Nov 17, 2013)

Thanks for this diverse set of responses! I'm actively working on the talk, so any other ideas anyone has, I'm "all ears!" I would still like to hear from any Asian or European breeders who frequent this forum! Any following this thread?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mormodes (Nov 17, 2013)

find out who is doing 4n conversions. afaik asia and europe are not. or not as much.


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## mormodes (Nov 17, 2013)

dave sorokowsky is speaking on something similar at the peninsula os this friday. you may want to pick his brain


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## fibre (Dec 13, 2013)

reivilos said:


> This is such a pain to share a file nowadays! I can't believe it.
> Here is the google doc link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2-aYy92nudiQjVCVUtZZ0I3d0E/edit?usp=sharing



Thanks a lot for sharing this this helpful list!
Is there a way of an easy and continuing (i.e. quarterly) updating?


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## reivilos (Dec 14, 2013)

fibre said:


> Thanks a lot for sharing this this helpful list!
> Is there a way of an easy and continuing (i.e. quarterly) updating?



I doubt the RHS would appreciate... Besides they could do it themselves!


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