# Phrag. caudatum variety?



## Magicboy (Jan 1, 2008)

I wonder what the diffrence is between Phrag. caudatum var. giganteum, Phrag. caudatum var. sanderianum and a regular Phrag. caudatum?

Does someone have photos so I can compare?


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## NYEric (Jan 2, 2008)

Never heard of em, but
http://www.phragweb.info/phragmipedium/species/display_species_phrag.asp?phrag_id=51


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## Rick (Jan 4, 2008)

I can't tell you much of anything about giganteum, but sanderianum (or sanderae?) is a pale flowered version of the nominal caudatum. In comparison to the nominal the coloring will be similar to wallisii (now warczewicksianum) or greener, but the flower structure is definitely caudatum.


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## weiweidc (Jan 18, 2008)

Does anyone know what Phrag caudatum var fortune looks like or how it differs from the other types of Phrag caudatum? 
This is a name from Ecuagenera. I can't find it anywhere else on the web.


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## Kyle (Jan 18, 2008)

They are warzerwicianum (terrible spelling) I am 95% sure of it.

Kyle


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## Leo Schordje (Jan 21, 2008)

OK - nobody tackled this, Guido Braem and Sandy Ohlund really are the ones that should be handling this. I'll give it a go. 

There is the widespread species that in its classic forms from Peru & Bolivia that is the type for Phrag caudatum. It is a big plant, big flowers which are basically green with lighter patterns and dark markings especially in the petals. In some the petal ends are fairly red. Pouch is green with some amount of brown on the outside. This is the classic caudatum. 
. The name caudatum variety giganteum is a horticultural name that was not validly published. It was used as part of the sales pitch by 19th century dealers trying to distinguish the Peru-Boliva caudatum from the Colombian species that had smaller flowers and variously has been called caudatum, wallisii and last by Braem & Ohlund now called warscewiczianum. So the name giganteum is nomen nudum = a name with no meaning. 
. The name caudatum variety sanderianum is another 19th cenutry sales pitch. The firm of George Sanders & Sons, used to add the variety name 'sanderianum' to any select clone of a species that came through their doors. THE NAME DOES NOT MEAN ALBINO. The firm Sander's used it the way Orchids by Hausermann would use "Addison" or "York" as clonal designation. It just so happened that many of the individual clones of albino Paphs the Sanders firm named 'Sanderianum' back when latinized cultivar names were allowed. But they also put that name on a few highly colored clones of some species. In the case of Phrag caudatum var. sanderianum the plant described in the Garden Chronicals matches the type description for the normal form of the Peru-Bolivia version of Phrag caudatum. In particular there was mention of the big green & gold flower with long petals with red petal tips. This again is typical of the Peru and Bolivia races of Phrag caudatum. 
. So both names are not valid, they both refer to the typical form of Phrag caudatum. Use of these names has persisted because of the confusion between taxonomic variety and horticultural cultivar, especially when cultivars got latinized names this really confused the difference. 
. that is what I believe is true, Sandy or Guido - correct me if I missed the mark, I did not hit the reference books. 
Leo


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## ORG (Jan 21, 2008)

Dear Leo,
you have written it very well.
It is really very bad with these names, also in other genera an d species.
Sometimes these trade or horticultural names are the base for further confusion. Typical example is the caudatum sanderae.

Best greetings just now from Miami

Olaf


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## Kyle (Jan 21, 2008)

Kyle said:


> They are warzerwicianum (terrible spelling) I am 95% sure of it.
> 
> Kyle



To clear up my post, the plants that I saw in Ecuageneras greenhouse labled as caudatum fortuna were phrag warzerwiczianum (sp?). I don't know for sure if those plants were parents to the plants that were in flask labled as caudatum fortuna, but for me it was a reasonable assumption.

Kyle


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## ORG (Jan 21, 2008)

Dear Kyle,
have you any picture of such a clone?
In Europe the var. fortune, also when it is only a tradename, unknown.

Best greetings

Olaf


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