# Paph fairrieanum + culture question



## smartie2000 (Jan 22, 2009)

Here's my first bloom fairrieanum, parentage ‘Supernymph’ x ‘Excel’. I think the bloom is small, nothing special compared to what we've seen before on this forum. 





Since I bought this plant a while back it, its leaves turned orange. Some of the older leaves died off. I'm not sure why it turned orange? It doesn't happen on my other paphs.




I love this species. I wouldn't mind another one, once I figure out how to better grow it.


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## SlipperFan (Jan 22, 2009)

The flower looks fine. Fairrianum is a smallish flower.

I'd be concerned about the orange stuff.


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## Ernie (Jan 22, 2009)

Fren,

That's a perfectly lovely fairrieanum. 
Casual observtion and speculation, not scientifically backed data: Could be mite damage that caused the discoloration. They munch away for a while, and sometimes, even long after they are eradicated, the pits discolor as the damaged cells slowly give in. Look at the leaf bases- unscarred. Mites sometimes avoid this area probably because it forms a local, humid microclimate compared to the less protected, flat areas of the leaves. It is totally possible the damage was done before you ever laid hands on the plant. Mite damage takes a while to become necrotic sometimes. If it was something else munching, I'd expect to see damage especially at the leaf bases because true insects like that more protected type of spot (mites are arachnids not insects). Sometimes chemical damage looks like this, but is much more uniform in distribution. 

-Ernie


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## smartie2000 (Jan 23, 2009)

Thanks for your explanation Ernie  maybe they were mites, but are gone now


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## goldenrose (Jan 23, 2009)

I agree with Dot, my fairries aren't that big - it's hard to judge size by photos!


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## SlipperKing (Jan 23, 2009)

Ernie could very well be right about mites. What bothers me is the abrupt lines of damage vs non-damaged areas. I wonder if it could be some kind of chemical burn. Maybe from the media when it's watered or something was sprayed on the plant and a chemical reaction accured when mixed with sunlight,water or maybe temperature change. The second leaf up on the left looks highly suspicious for mites though.

PS. Great flower!


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## Ernie (Jan 23, 2009)

The line from orange to clean shows where the eradication occurred. One of my buddies showed me some leaf damage from critters sitting in a Paph crown in which the critters munched the leaf as it grew from the crown. Left chevron shaped marks every 1/2 inch or so that stopped once he killed the beasts leaving perfectly clean leaves afterward. The lower leaves are orange nearer the base because they were likely mature during the feast whereas the upper ones were still growing??? 

-Ernie

-Ernie


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## smartie2000 (Feb 1, 2009)

I think it looks better now that the dorsal has developed


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## John M (Feb 1, 2009)

I think that the flower is beautiful....nothing wrong with this one!

The orange does NOT look like mite damage to me. It looks more like rust disease, which can be quite devastating if left unchecked. I could be wrong of course, it's difficult to diagnose anything from just a photo and no positive diagnosis can be made without a culture being done. However, to be safe, I'd immediately remove all the leaves with any sign of the rust and spray the plant thoroughly with Funginex, 3 times, a week apart. Also, I'd spray any other plants that were near this one in your collection. 

There's no need to panic; but, you really should do something to stop this from spreading. Good luck.


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## Lance Birk (Feb 2, 2009)

Don't cut off those leaves, that is not rust. Sorry to disagree John M, but it does look like mite damage to me.

Rust is a fatal disease. Looks nothing like this. First sign of rust damage is when you see a tiny rust-colored lesion on a leaf margin somewhere. I mean TINY, and by that time your plant is DEAD!

There is no known cure for the rust that attacks paphs, well, there might be one if anyone else were to experience this disease and who may have found one. To the best of my knowledge, I am the only person who's plants were attacked by rust, at least in the US. I'm certain the disease is still out there in Thailand somewhere, .... just waiting.

Sorry, I have no photos, I did not want to "infect" my camera, if you understand what I mean.


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## NYEric (Feb 2, 2009)

I don't know about mites but definitely some pest damage caused a lot of my paphs to get discolored like that. I treated w/ Merit 75 now Neem and the problems seems to be lessening. Nice fairrie BTW.


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## biothanasis (Feb 4, 2009)

These are always beautiful....!!! Great one...!


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## John M (Feb 4, 2009)

Lance Birk said:


> Don't cut off those leaves, that is not rust. Sorry to disagree John M, but it does look like mite damage to me.



No problem, Lance. Discussions like this are how we all learn. As I said, I could be wrong about it being rust. However, I am fairly certain that it is not mite damage; but again, I'd be a lot more confident if I could see the leaves in person...with a magnifying glass! In my experience, mite damage does not have such defined edges. If the mites do happen to favour an area of leaf tissue, they will concentrate there and the visible damage will become less and less, the further away from the 'hot spot' you look. The damage on this plant has clearly defined edges, indicating to me that it is caused by a systemic disease, not critters. Also, this plant has raised, orange lesions on the underside of the leaves as well as severely pitted areas on the top of the leaf. Sure, it resembles mite damage; but, it's not quite right IMO. 

My advice was given as more of a precautionary action, rather than a definite diagnosis. If it were my plant and I didn't want to bother with going to the trouble of doing a formal investigation and identification of the pathogen, I'd still remove those leaves and spray with Funginex. I'd also spray with Benomyl and any other systemic fungicides that I could get my hands on....in the hopes of hitting on something that had a protective effect....in case I'm right about it being rust....or, some other fungal disease.

Also, if I wanted to know for sure, I'd send the leaves to my local government agricultural lab for a definitive diagnosis. 
In Canada, the CFIA should be able to provide the address of the nearest diagnostic lab. (1-800-442-2342 or 1-613-225-2342 or http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/tools/feedback/commene.shtml)


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## Lance Birk (Feb 5, 2009)

The defined leaf edge damage seen here is the result of the leaf being attacked during the stage of growth where it was still emerging, leaving no space where the mites could enter. The damaged area to the leaves above shows where mites had free access, and it is less defined.

If this damage was caused by a systemic fungus or bacteria there would be no such delineation since it would be internal, most likely originating from the basal meristem. Removing leaves when there is latent damage can cause more harm than good. I fail to see the point.

Let me say it again: "Rust is a fatal disease. Looks nothing like this. First sign of rust damage is when you see a tiny rust-colored lesion on a leaf margin somewhere. I mean TINY, and by that time your plant is DEAD!"

I don't know about Canada, but in the US it is illegal to mis-use pesticides. As a California Registered Pesticide Operator I can tell you that there can be serious liabilities when they are mis-applied. Even common sense should dictate that the pest must be identified before the targeted and approved pesticide is applied. If you cannot determine if it is an animal or a plant causing the damage one should seek expert opinion. Guessing is not a sound management practice. Besides, pesticides are expensive.

Where I live we have an exceptionally active cut-flower industy, our local US Agricultural Department is exceptionally ignorant about pests and plant problems. The University of California Extension Service is exceptionally knowledgeable .... go figure.


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## John M (Feb 5, 2009)

The defined leaf edge damage seen here is the result of the leaf being attacked during the stage of growth where it was still emerging, leaving no space where the mites could enter. The damaged area to the leaves above shows where mites had free access, and it is less defined. *Well, that is a good point; but then, I would expect the bottom edge to be even more clearly defined and less uneven. Still, considering this does make sense.*

If this damage was caused by a systemic fungus or bacteria there would be no such delineation since it would be internal, most likely originating from the basal meristem. Removing leaves when there is latent damage can cause more harm than good. I fail to see the point. *The point is to help ensure that the plant is saved and others are not infected. It is my understanding that when a systemic pathogen spreads to the outside of a leaf, it is done in an attempt to spread and infect other plants. So, removal of the "fruiting" portions helps to control and prevent the spread of the disease to other plants. Then, spraying with a systemic is aimed at hopefully eradicating the pathogen that still remains inside the plant tissue. In the winter, it is not uncommon for me to find leaves in the crown of some Paphs and Phrags that have rot inside the leaf tissue. I pull them. I find that the rot almost never goes all the way down to the basal meristem; that is, if I find and pull the leaf soon enough. Sometimes the growing point is damaged or removed in the process of pulling the leaf; but, the plant does get to live to see another day. Being sympodial, it will soon produce a new growth from it's base to replace the damaged one.*

Let me say it again: "Rust is a fatal disease. Looks nothing like this. First sign of rust damage is when you see a tiny rust-colored lesion on a leaf margin somewhere. I mean TINY, and by that time your plant is DEAD!" *Yup. I got it the first time. Thanks. The problem is; there is information available that conflicts with your statement. I believe it is wise of me to always have an open mind and not blindly accept just one expert's emphatic opinion. You may very well be right; but, I am not an expert and I have no way of confirming your information. So, from a practical point of view, I must consider your opinion with serious regard; but, I will not blindly believe it to be 100% true and undeniable.*

I don't know about Canada, but in the US it is illegal to mis-use pesticides. As a California Registered Pesticide Operator I can tell you that there can be serious liabilities when they are mis-applied. Even common sense should dictate that the pest must be identified before the targeted and approved pesticide is applied. If you cannot determine if it is an animal or a plant causing the damage one should seek expert opinion. Guessing is not a sound management practice. *Now you're being arrogant and impractical. I did not recommend that anybody mis-use pesticides. Anything available to the general consumer and labelled for use on ornamentals is a reasonable candidate for use on orchids. Plus, I was assuming that the readers would have enough smarts to follow the instuctions provided on the label.....and not need me to tell them this. Also, yes of course, it is best to positively identify the pathogen and tailor the treatment for that specific disease. However, that is not practical in the case of most hobbyists with one or two plants affected....and it is mostly hobbyists who frequent this forum. While I did provide contact information for CFIA, I don't expect that anyone will really follow through with a formal diagnosis and tailored treatment. In the real world, people will weigh the cost to themselves in terms of money and effort against the value of the sick plant in question and in most, if not all (hobbyist), cases, they will opt for the "best educated guess" approach and not go through the formality, inconvenience and expense of a scientific identification. So, while you are basically correct, my comments were more suitable for the real world, where ordinary people are looking for an easy fix. Remember, context counts for a lot here. This forum is not exclusive to academics. It is not part of a formal education in plant diseases and pesticide application. It is a place where orchid growing hobbyists gather and share ideas and experiences. This place will have very little resemblance to a place where one receives a formal education. People here are looking for practical, helpful information. This is about real-world orchid growing for the hobbyist. Expecting that they have every sick plant tested and the disease possitively identified, BEFORE they try any sort of remedy, is simply not practical and it won't be done. * Besides, pesticides are expensive. *In your enthusiastic oposition of my viewpoint, you really overstep here. The cost of pesticides and whether or not people can or should afford them, is not for you to determine. Plus, I believe that a small package or two of fungicide purchased at a garden centre would cost far less than hiring an accredited laboratory to do a custom investigation and identification of a suspected pathogen. Plus, at the conclusion, the recommended treatment would very likely be a pesticide that is not available to anyone without a pesticide licence. The general public is shut out of being able to acquire and use these products. So, from a hobbyist's point of view, not getting a positive identification; but rather, going straight to a "best guess" treatment with a pesticide that is readily available to them, is the only real choice that they have. In the end, if the plant does not recover, they throw it out and buy something else. The loss does not have the same impact as a commercial grower losing a whole crop.*


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