# Growing brachypetalum



## Stone (Jul 10, 2012)

I'm planing to try the Tanaka method of growing brachys. Basically he pots seedlings into small 2-3 inch pots. When they are established, he transfers them to very large pots (6 inch dia.) pots with a very large particled mix consisting of bark and stones. Then he will leave them for years without touching them. He waters each individually. Has anyone tried this? He seems to have great success!

Mike


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jul 10, 2012)

I haven't tried it, but it makes sense. For plants that seem to need frequent repotting, I find that brachy's resent repotting...something that most paphs welcome like a badly needed diaper change. My approach is simply to add more inorganic material to the medium, and try to repot no more often than every 2 years.


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## Stone (Jul 10, 2012)

Just realised this should be on the ''culture'' board. Oops.


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## naoki (Jul 10, 2012)

What mix are you planning to use? In the US, we can't get some components of his mix. Winter time would be a challenge with his method. Dr. Tanaka is talking about not repotting for 4 years or more.


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## Stone (Jul 10, 2012)

naoki said:


> What mix are you planning to use? In the US, we can't get some components of his mix. Winter time would be a challenge with his method. Dr. Tanaka is talking about not repotting for 4 years or more.



1 part hard bark, 1 part treefern cubes, 1 part baked clay, 2 parts polystyrene chunks, 1 part charcoal. (or something like that) Trying to keep all materials the same size. Most of seedlings will not be ready for 18 months but I might try a couple this spring/summer?
I would like to find large size zeolite and diatomite.


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## Ozpaph (Jul 11, 2012)

keep us updated with photos, please.


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## Roth (Jul 11, 2012)

All the stones, and the Orchiata would last for several years for sure, polystyrene of course, charcoal, it can make some problems after a while depending on the wood used. Tree fern, definitely fine too...
In my earlier experiments with Orchiata, I repotted some hangianum in 30 Orchiata Power (9-12 mm) + 4 pumice ( the grey one) + 4 polystyren beads ( the 1cm ones) + 2shredded tree fern and 1 coir, with some chemistry grade calcium carbonate added. They got nutricote every 4 months, and I found out two weeks ago that I still have 50 plants in the original mix, never repotted, in a corner of the nursery. It did not decompose at all at nearly 5 years now and the plants definitely have a lot of active root tips, no dead roots or nearly so. Only the plants are grossly overgrown, so they need repotting, but I think another 1-2 years more would be absolutely possible. Therefore, it would be possible to have a mix where we can avoid repotting for several years. In fact, the plants are rarely repotted in the wild, and apart from some plants growing in moss, where the fresh moss 'renew' the growing media in some ways ( but antique roots are still alive an well, deep below), many species are at the same spot for decades, untouched. The water, nutrients, whatever, keep the media suitable seemingly forever...


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## Ozpaph (Jul 11, 2012)

great insight, thanks Roth!


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## Stone (Jul 11, 2012)

Roth said:


> All the stones, and the Orchiata would last for several years for sure, polystyrene of course, charcoal, it can make some problems after a while depending on the wood used. Tree fern, definitely fine too...
> In my earlier experiments with Orchiata, I repotted some hangianum in 30 Orchiata Power (9-12 mm) + 4 pumice ( the grey one) + 4 polystyren beads ( the 1cm ones) + 2shredded tree fern and 1 coir, with some chemistry grade calcium carbonate added. They got nutricote every 4 months, and I found out two weeks ago that I still have 50 plants in the original mix, never repotted, in a corner of the nursery. It did not decompose at all at nearly 5 years now and the plants definitely have a lot of active root tips, no dead roots or nearly so. Only the plants are grossly overgrown, so they need repotting, but I think another 1-2 years more would be absolutely possible. Therefore, it would be possible to have a mix where we can avoid repotting for several years. In fact, the plants are rarely repotted in the wild, and apart from some plants growing in moss, where the fresh moss 'renew' the growing media in some ways ( but antique roots are still alive an well, deep below), many species are at the same spot for decades, untouched. The water, nutrients, whatever, keep the media suitable seemingly forever...



Yes exactly! Tanaka also says it is important not to damage new roots on the seedling when transplanting and not to touch the old compost at all, even if its decomposed and let the new roots enter the new mix by themselves. or it can set your plant back a year or 2.


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## ehanes7612 (Jul 11, 2012)

i really believe that success of Brachy's is heavily dependent on the flasker...the main problem i have is the time they need to spend in a compot after deflasking...the worst thing one can do is forcibly separate the roots on brachy (and parvis).. i dont even wash off the agar (which i used to do and plants would bleach out )..this presents a problem for some flasks because of the media some flaskers use (The Roots) ..all the old roots end up dying before they can grow new roots ...so once they are able to be separated they have a significant journey to establishing good roots..really frustrating. I have had better success with flasks that have looser media (Springwater and pretty much anyone else)..they grow roots a lot quicker. I have asked Sam about this but he only receives his plants from the lab after they have been established in compots and doesnt know what they do...anyoe have any idea how to treat flasks that come from The Roots lab?


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## Rick (Jul 11, 2012)

I have a multi growth niveum and a BS seeding belatulum in 4 inch wood slat baskets. Sphagnum/large limestone gravel/building sand/cichlid sand for media. Both doing very well. The niveum has been in this basket since Jan 2011, and the belatulum about 4-5 months less. When they overgrow the baskets they're in, I'll just break out a side, (or two) and put them in a bigger basket.


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## SlipperFan (Jul 11, 2012)

Stone said:


> Just realised this should be on the ''culture'' board. Oops.



So moved...


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## Roth (Jul 11, 2012)

ehanes7612 said:


> i really believe that success of Brachy's is heavily dependent on the flasker...the main problem i have is the time they need to spend in a compot after deflasking...the worst thing one can do is forcibly separate the roots on brachy (and parvis).. i dont even wash off the agar (which i used to do and plants would bleach out )..this presents a problem for some flasks because of the media some flaskers use (The Roots) ..all the old roots end up dying before they can grow new roots ...so once they are able to be separated they have a significant journey to establishing good roots..really frustrating. I have had better success with flasks that have looser media (Springwater and pretty much anyone else)..they grow roots a lot quicker. I have asked Sam about this but he only receives his plants from the lab after they have been established in compots and doesnt know what they do...anyoe have any idea how to treat flasks that come from The Roots lab?



I deflasked a lot of brachys species and hybrids, and other paphs, and I found out that, if the seedlings are strong ( not etiolated), you can absolutely break a part of the roots, in fact I recut the roots at ca. 1-2 cm for the brachys, dip them in a mix of dithane, aliette and subdue (Ridomil), let them dry on a towel for an hour or two, until there is no visible humidity, but before they dry out, and repot in plugs. Never lost a single seedling. What you see with the 'dead roots' is not a matter of media or growing condition, it is root rot guaranteed. 

Some flaskers have media too that make bad quality ( sugar loaded) roots, those can be tricky to deflask, but they respond well to the same treatment.


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## Rick (Jul 11, 2012)

Roth said:


> Some flaskers have media too that make bad quality ( sugar loaded) roots,



Too much Koke:oke:oke:

I just couldn't contain. In the last year since dropping the K and using hard well water instead of RO water I'm having no problems with deflasked brachy seedlings.

Brachy's were purportedly "salt sensitive" which I thought was ironic since a bunch of them are found within range of ocean spray. To that end, they seem to love salts as long as its low in K relative to Ca/Mg (and even Na).


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## Stone (Jul 11, 2012)

Rick said:


> Too much Koke:oke:oke:
> 
> I just couldn't contain. In the last year since dropping the K and using hard well water instead of RO water I'm having no problems with deflasked brachy seedlings.
> 
> Brachy's were purportedly "salt sensitive" which I thought was ironic since a bunch of them are found within range of ocean spray. To that end, they seem to love salts as long as its low in K relative to Ca/Mg (and even Na).



Niveum, godefroyae, leuc, and possbaly thaianum could be subjected to sea spray NaCl? Bellatulum and concolor should be considered seperately. Maybe when they talk about low salt they refer to total salinity whether from N or K or whatever?


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## Rick (Jul 11, 2012)

Stone said:


> Niveum, godefroyae, leuc, and possbaly thaianum could be subjected to sea spray NaCl? Bellatulum and concolor should be considered seperately. Maybe when they talk about low salt they refer to total salinity whether from N or K or whatever?



I think most non-chemist people only know "salt" as NaCl. But more appropriately should be considered as Total Dissolved Solids (TDS). But even so all you here is the blanket statement about brachies (no divisions) are salt intolerant which doesn't make sense either way (TDS or NaCl) with most of these species ending up so close to 20,000ppm of NaCl.

Bellatulum is definitely inland, but some populations of concolor are also coastal island types like niveum. I thought thaianum was inland too? But all brachies are associated with limestone.

Anyway although 2/3 of ocean water is NaCl, Magnesium is about 3 times higher than K, and Ca about 1.5 times K (which is down around 400 ppm, or less than 2% of TDS in Ocean water).

I think regardless of your brachie species, they all like lots of soluble Ca/Mg


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## abax (Jul 12, 2012)

*TN Rick, about those baskets, what are you*

using to hold the medium inside the basket? I grow several orchids in baskets and use long-fibered coco around the inside of the basket to keep the potting medium from
ending up on my gh floor. I'd like to experiment with Paphs. in baskets, but I have no idea whether the coco
might make a good "holder-inner" or not.

Oh, do keep harping on the low K. The difference in the
low K diet is amazing compared to other fertilizers I've used in the past.


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## ehanes7612 (Jul 12, 2012)

Roth said:


> I deflasked a lot of brachys species and hybrids, and other paphs, and I found out that, if the seedlings are strong ( not etiolated), you can absolutely break a part of the roots, in fact I recut the roots at ca. 1-2 cm for the brachys, dip them in a mix of dithane, aliette and subdue (Ridomil), let them dry on a towel for an hour or two, until there is no visible humidity, but before they dry out, and repot in plugs. Never lost a single seedling. What you see with the 'dead roots' is not a matter of media or growing condition, it is root rot guaranteed.
> 
> Some flaskers have media too that make bad quality ( sugar loaded) roots, those can be tricky to deflask, but they respond well to the same treatment.



good to know , thanks!


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## ehanes7612 (Jul 12, 2012)

Rick said:


> Too much Koke:oke:oke:
> 
> I just couldn't contain. In the last year since dropping the K and using hard well water instead of RO water I'm having no problems with deflasked brachy seedlings.
> 
> Brachy's were purportedly "salt sensitive" which I thought was ironic since a bunch of them are found within range of ocean spray. To that end, they seem to love salts as long as its low in K relative to Ca/Mg (and even Na).



yep, low K..like i said ..i only have problems with one flasker..unfortunately most of my flasks have come from them


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## Stone (Jul 12, 2012)

Rick said:


> > I think regardless of your brachie species, they all like lots of soluble Ca/Mg
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Ozpaph (Jul 12, 2012)

Rick (et al) could you use shade cloth as a lining for the basket, to keep the media in? Drains well. Sphagnum just doesnt seem to stay alive for me.
Could those plastic basket type pots work or would they dry out too fast?


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## naoki (Jul 12, 2012)

Stone said:


> 1 part hard bark, 1 part treefern cubes, 1 part baked clay, 2 parts polystyrene chunks, 1 part charcoal. (or something like that) Trying to keep all materials the same size. Most of seedlings will not be ready for 18 months but I might try a couple this spring/summer?
> I would like to find large size zeolite and diatomite.



Sounds good. Dr. Tanaka seems to be into something called Ceraton (some kinds of Ceramics) (about 30-40% of his mix). He mentions that it is used as aquarium filter material, and it has the property to ?emit? infra-red energy. I dug around a little bit with google, but I'm not completely sure what this material is. He thinks that it may help root growth and reduce rotting. Does anyone knows what this is?


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## ehanes7612 (Jul 12, 2012)

well, is there anything that is available that is effective in stimulating root growth for small seedlings?


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## naoki (Jul 12, 2012)

Do you mean natural or synthetic auxin?


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## Brabantia (Jul 12, 2012)

ehanes7612 said:


> well, is there anything that is available that is effective in stimulating root growth for small seedlings?



Seaweed liquid extract (like Kelpack) is a natural root growth stimulator you can use.


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## Linus_Cello (Jul 12, 2012)

naoki said:


> Sounds good. Dr. Tanaka seems to be into something called Ceraton (some kinds of Ceramics) (about 30-40% of his mix). He mentions that it is used as aquarium filter material, and it has the property to ?emit? infra-red energy. I dug around a little bit with google, but I'm not completely sure what this material is. He thinks that it may help root growth and reduce rotting. Does anyone knows what this is?



Do you think it could be these ceramic rings?
http://www.thatpetplace.com/ceramic-rings-pcml-160-220-360-530-filters

Or more probably this (as it helps supposedly buffer the pH)?:
http://www.southernoakaquatics.com/humic.html


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## Rick (Jul 12, 2012)

Ozpaph said:


> Rick (et al) could you use shade cloth as a lining for the basket, to keep the media in? Drains well. Sphagnum just doesnt seem to stay alive for me.
> Could those plastic basket type pots work or would they dry out too fast?



I just pack the slats with dead sphag. But I don't see any reason to avoid any other plastic or natural netting material to retain the rest of the substrate materials.

Since I've cut overall amount of fert to the 30-50ppm N range and K is way down, I'm having a lot better growth of live mosses in general.


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## Rick (Jul 12, 2012)

Stone said:


> Rick said:
> 
> 
> > I think no more than any other sp. And I think they get most if not all of their Ca/Mg from leaf litter etc, Concolor for eg. has often been found growing in moss on trees. I believe niveum has too. And I've seen pics of malipoense and other ''limestone growers'' growing in tree crotches right away from the rock. To me this says they get their Ca (and everything else) from tree litter, dead grasses and exudates from living plants etc. ( maybe only tiny traces from the rock ) The deep rooted plants (trees) would get Ca from the decomposed limestone soil and as we saw in the tables the other day, a lot of the Ca in leaves is not resorbed but discarded with the dehisced leaves.
> ...


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## Ozpaph (Jul 12, 2012)

Rick said:


> I just pack the slats with dead sphag. But I don't see any reason to avoid any other plastic or natural netting material to retain the rest of the substrate materials.
> 
> Since I've cut overall amount of fert to the 30-50ppm N range and K is way down, I'm having a lot better growth of live mosses in general.



Thanks Rick.


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## naoki (Jul 12, 2012)

Linus_Cello said:


> Do you think it could be these ceramic rings?
> http://www.thatpetplace.com/ceramic-rings-pcml-160-220-360-530-filters
> 
> Or more probably this (as it helps supposedly buffer the pH)?:
> http://www.southernoakaquatics.com/humic.html



Maybe the ceramic rings are something similar, but they are kind of expensive. I wonder if there is something cheaper. Maybe large ceramic bearings? Dr. Tanaka's description about infra-red emission is a little puzzling. I guess when the material is used in ceramic space heater, it is converting the energy from heating wire to IR, but I don't know if it emits IR by itself. So it sounds a little gimmicky.


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## Stone (Jul 12, 2012)

Ozpaph said:


> Rick (et al) could you use shade cloth as a lining for the basket, to keep the media in? Drains well. Sphagnum just doesnt seem to stay alive for me.
> Could those plastic basket type pots work or would they dry out too fast?



Go to Bunnings and buy some fiberglass flyscreen. You can cut it with scissors and its very cheap.


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## Stone (Jul 12, 2012)

naoki said:


> Sounds good. Dr. Tanaka seems to be into something called Ceraton (some kinds of Ceramics) (about 30-40% of his mix). He mentions that it is used as aquarium filter material, and it has the property to ?emit? infra-red energy. I dug around a little bit with google, but I'm not completely sure what this material is. He thinks that it may help root growth and reduce rotting. Does anyone knows what this is?



Its some sort of porous ceramic material ( I think natural) with a High CEC. something like zeolite. Don't know about the light energy though. Sounds a bit StarTrek. Although I think I recall Spock growing some paphs once.


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## Stone (Jul 12, 2012)

Rick said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > Yes somantics. I think most of the Ca/Mg deficiency symptoms in orchids are from excess K. Brachies (and most plants in general) live in situations where Ca is not restricted. The lack of Ca recycling in dehisced leaves supports that the environment is not restricted in Ca (and most likely Mg too).
> ...


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## Rick (Jul 12, 2012)

Yes the big rock in the potting mix is just for aeration, and neutral surface. Not much different than adding styro peanuts or pottery shards. But that's why I add a dash of the fine aragonite sand. That stuff really does slowly dissolve.

I checked my well water again today, since we finally got enough rain to raise the local creek levels.

I live on essentially a limestone hill here in TN. Groundwater starts at roughly 50 to 80 ft. I live on the top of the ridge. Spring fed creeks pop out all over starting at about 50 ft below the ridge, and get bigger and more continuous the farther down grade you go from my place. Anyway today's analysis. 

Conductivity = 600 useimen
Hardness = 380 mg/L as CaCO3
Alkalinity = 114 mg/L HCO3
pH = 7.3

I had a previous sample analyzed for calcium and magnesium content separately and found the Ca:Mg ratio is 13.5 to 1. So if I used it to water at full strength the plants would see almost 140 ppm of Ca and 10ppm of Mg under present conditions. But even when I water with 10:1 RO/well water the plants get a 14 ppm dose of Ca (that's hardness of 34.7 by the way if you are using soft water in comparison). So lots more than when I was using nothing but RO.

I also measured Na and K, and there was only 3ppm of sodium and K was non detect at 1ppm.


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## Rick (Jul 13, 2012)

That 14:1 Ca to Mg ratio I think is not especially helpful. Depending on the type of limestone you are over (more dolomitic) you get closer to a 1:1 ratio. And ocean water has about 4-5 times more Mg than either Ca or K. So those coastal brachies would see a lot more Mg in their lives than if they lived on Tennessee cliffs. 

I add a dash of epsom salts on the sunny days to compensate. 

That got a lot of my cliff dwellers fired up before I started low K.

I have a paper on leaf litter ion concentrations of plants over serpentine geology. (High in Mg, and low in Ca). A few of our favorite Borneo slippers (rothschildianum most famous) are found over this type of geology. Somehow the plants manage to scrounge the Ca and K from somewhere to end up with essentially the same ion ratios as plants over karst limestone, and whatever the Panamanian forest was over in that paper you found!

I think its pretty crazy that the wild undomesticated plants all over the world, on all types of geology, end up with similar levels of NPK Ca Mg.


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## Stone (Jul 13, 2012)

Rick said:


> > I think its pretty crazy that the wild undomesticated plants all over the world, on all types of geology, end up with similar levels of NPK Ca Mg
> 
> 
> 
> So does that mean I can throw a handfull of horse sh*t on my pots and let them sort it out?:rollhappy:


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## Ozpaph (Jul 13, 2012)

Stone said:


> Go to Bunnings and buy some fiberglass flyscreen. You can cut it with scissors and its very cheap.



excellent idea!


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## keithrs (Jul 13, 2012)

naoki said:


> Maybe the ceramic rings are something similar, but they are kind of expensive. I wonder if there is something cheaper. Maybe large ceramic bearings? Dr. Tanaka's description about infra-red emission is a little puzzling. I guess when the material is used in ceramic space heater, it is converting the energy from heating wire to IR, but I don't know if it emits IR by itself. So it sounds a little gimmicky.



ceramic balls

Folks on here told me it was a gimmick.


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## Rick (Jul 13, 2012)

Stone said:


> Rick said:
> 
> 
> > So does that mean I can throw a handfull of horse sh*t on my pots and let them sort it out?:rollhappy:
> ...


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## keithrs (Jul 13, 2012)

Stone said:


> So does that mean I can throw a handfull of horse sh*t on my pots and let them sort it out?:rollhappy:



I spray worm **** on my plants.oke:


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## Stone (Nov 25, 2015)

*Update*

At the start of this thread I mentioned that I was going to try the Tanaka method of growing brachys. That is to basically put them in a big pot and leave them for a number of years.
Well I finally had a concolor which I thought was big enough to try. It was growing in a 3 inch tube and I have placed it in a 8 inch (aprox) bowl and plan to leave it there.
I used large orchiata and peices of granite and a sprinkling of zeolite. Its a bit hard to know when to water!

We shall see how it goes......


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## troy (Nov 25, 2015)

Stone, what happened to the plants you origionally started this with in 2012?


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## paphioboy (Nov 25, 2015)

Looking good, stone..


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## Bjorn (Nov 26, 2015)

Mike, glad you came with this one now....The reason is that I have recently potted up (from a flat) a bunch of leuchos and that was the most difficult thing I have come across. I was shocked by the size and brittleness of the roots and afterwards most of them seem to succumb from rot. Thrown away half of them now; Lets hope the remains stays alive and avoid rot. The lesson learned is probablybly to pot up as soon as possible after deflasking and be very careful.


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## Stone (Nov 26, 2015)

Bjorn said:


> Mike, glad you came with this one now....The reason is that I have recently potted up (from a flat) a bunch of leuchos and that was the most difficult thing I have come across. I was shocked by the size and brittleness of the roots and afterwards most of them seem to succumb from rot. Thrown away half of them now; Lets hope the remains stays alive and avoid rot. The lesson learned is probablybly to pot up as soon as possible after deflasking and be very careful.



I found what works best for me is to put deflasked seedlings (5 to 7) in a smallish compot not a flat and leave them until they are completely covering it (2 -3 years) by then they will be quite strong plants but the roots are easy to handle and compact. They just don't do as well for me in individual pots after flask.

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23601&highlight=compots&page=3

Unfortuately the pic seems to be gone??


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## krisk (Nov 26, 2015)

For me the biggest thing was to avoid deflasking in autumn or winter. Now I take them out in late spring I have no issues. I plant into compots of 10-15mm bark with a small amount of sphag and shell grit. Here is one that is 12 months old. I have no issues repotting.


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## Bjorn (Nov 26, 2015)

krisk said:


> For me the biggest thing was to avoid deflasking in autumn or winter. Now I take them out in late spring I have no issues. I plant into compots of 10-15mm bark with a small amount of sphag and shell grit. Here is one that is 12 months old. I have no issues repotting.



Looks great! Might be a good advice, must try to remember.....


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## Paul (Nov 26, 2015)

Hi

I had the very best results and impressive growth when growing under MH light for Brachy's. Concolor were ready to bloom about 1 year and 1/2 after deflask. 

Now I grow all of them at the south side of greenhouse, medium is medium bark + expanded clay balls + a little moss. I've started in spring and it grows much better and faster than previously with a little more shade and no moss no clay balls. Temperature drops a little more than previously but is higher when sunny. they get as much light as my Catts, if not more. I almost don't need to water in winter this way.


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