# Paph vietnamense



## papheteer (Mar 14, 2013)

I'm thinking of ordering a vietnamense from orchidinn. I'd like to know if its considered an easy or hard to grow plant. Thanks!!


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## The Orchid Boy (Mar 14, 2013)

I think it is considered an easy grower. It is similar to Paph. delenatii in the habitat it grows in. Paph. delenatii does grow at a little higher elevations and on granite, not limestone.


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## JeanLux (Mar 14, 2013)

see my threads on vietn.! I consider it an easy to grow species !!!! Jean


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## Justin (Mar 14, 2013)

it's easy to grow; however, I have had trouble keeping them alive after they flower. I've flowered a couple that then collapse and quickly die. Hoping my third one lives. 

they are beautiful little plants though with lovely foliage and flowers. well worth the effort.


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## NYEric (Mar 14, 2013)

The foliage is very nice but the blooms, at least in the US legal stock , are very short lived. I like the hybrids almost as much as the species. I'm hoping someone starts selling Ho Chi Minh x vietnamense to get the deeper colored petal influence,


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## Leo Schordje (Mar 14, 2013)

I would not call vietnamense easy. It does not really need anything special, but for most of us, they are prone to sudden unexplained death. This habit of suddenly rotting away for no apparent reason is why I would consider vietnamense to be a tricky species to keep long term. 

Definitely make sure you repot often enough that the potting mix does not break down. Once the potting mix deteriorates, Paph vietnamense roots deteriorate too. They are difficult to get to re-grow roots. 

Position the plant in your collection so it has good air movement.

I found the flowers, on the same plant, will last only a few days if I keep the plant wet, or will last for a month if as the flower is opening I move the plant out of my collection so that I don't water it with everything else. Run them dry, water infrequently once the flower is open. The flower will last longer this way. 

But, as far as humidity, light, temperatures etc, I pretty much grow vietnamense with my malipoense, bellatulum, concolor, micranthum & armeniacum. It does not need anything different, it is just 'touchy'.


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## Fabrice (Mar 14, 2013)

I completely agree with you Leo!

And delenatii is clearly easier!


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## Dido (Mar 14, 2013)

Fabrice said:


> I completely agree with you Leo!
> 
> And delenatii is clearly easier!



I would say the same. 

I send 2 to haven and the onece I have grow slow. 

One in inorganic and the other in organic media, but no differences in growth. 

Some vendor keep it in the same temp as delenatii, so I think it is not that easy


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## Fabrice (Mar 14, 2013)

I add: in my growing conditions...

It depends genetic too.


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## Stone (Mar 14, 2013)

I agree that its not ''easy''. I have five seedlings, all different clones. Two are really struggling, The others are certainly not thriving! but growing excruciatingly slow. I would love to get some detailed habitat conditions and some more info from successful growers. Quiet Australian says they are VERY seasonal. ie: VERY dry and quite cool during the dormant season and no doubt the opposite during the growing season. I believe they also grow in limestone cracks like the brachys. Mine have hardly moved all summer
On the subject of limestone cracks, 2 days ago I was talking someone who has visited the godefroyae habitat and told me they grew in these cracks in a hard red soil the same colour as the rocks. Try growing your plants in hard red soil:rollhappy:


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Mar 14, 2013)

I agree with Leo. I have found vietnamense to be very difficult...none have survived. They can grow well for a year or 2...not very fast growers, but then, as Leo said, sudden death. But delanatii is among the easiest of paph species to grow.


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## Bjorn (Mar 15, 2013)

I would not say it is too slow growing. Not quick but not bad either. I am performing a test right now and my plants (new leaf) seems to grow at a speed of 2-3mm a week. Not fast but ok.


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## papheteer (Mar 15, 2013)

thanks for the input guys. I didnt get one. I ended up getting a delenatii alba and a dunkel in its place.


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## JeanLux (Mar 16, 2013)

You should have tried one !! Whereas my viets. grow 'easy' since some 6 years, I am unable to reflower any of my delen.!! Jean


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## Leo Schordje (Mar 18, 2013)

I started with 3 different flasks worth of Paph vietnamense, picking up the first from AnTec way back when. Its been 11 years or more since I bought my last flask of vietnamense. I sold maybe 2/3 of the seedlings when they were 1 to 3 years from flask in 2.5 inch pots. Haven't sold any since. I kept maybe 20 for myself. Today 11 or so years later I have 7 plants. 

One has bloomed at least 4 or 5 times. It has yet to hang on to old growths, it is still a one growth plant, but it sends up a new growth, old growth fades, it flowers and then repeats the cycle. Blooming seems to be every 2 years, not bad for a Paph species. A fairly nice flower. It seems resistant to my occasional mistakes, but it doesn't make multiple growths. It has the best overall flower quality of the 'survivors'. 

The next 3 have been growing well enough, slow, but steady, they have all bloomed, each has one or more traits with their flowers that would keep me from putting them in an orchid show, but they grow, bloom every 2 to 4 years and they do seem to hang on to older growths. I haven't divided any yet, and none have fallen apart so none are for sale. The most growths in a pot is 4 growths. 

I have another three plants that at 11 years of age are still single growth seedlings that have not bloomed yet. For each I can pinpoint a time or event that by not repotting, or letting it get stuck in a bad spot, or during a past insect plauge outbreak, these seedlings were seriously set back, but didn't die and I have been slowly nursing them back to health. I don't consider them 'genetic defects' because I can assign cause, things I did that set these back, so I don't think it is something unique in their genetics, its just that I am a less than consistient grower. 

The remaining 13 out of the original 20 I set aside for myself died, one or two at a time over the last 11 years. Often the cause is they got moved to a back corner of the collection where the air circulation is not as vigorous, and then suddenly rotted away. This is most likely to happen when they are over due to be repotted. The quality of available fir bark has been deteriorating, I had to step up my repotting a couple years back for this reason. Once the mix goes bad (pH drops, suddenly retains a lot more water, collapses so it doesn't allow air in, etc) the roots soon fall victim to a random rot. 

I have begun the switch to Orchidrata (Pinus radiata bark), which seems to be much longer lasting, though it starts out being almost water repellent, it does seem better. Now instead of just fir bark for the 'organic' part of my potting mix I use a blend of fir bark, radiata pine bark, and small size coconut husk chunks. The ratios range from roughly equal to heavy on the radiata bark if I want a plant to run dry, to heavy on the fir bark if it is something I want wet (Phrags for instance). Coconut husk chunks are in there because they see to last without collapsing, and hold water and air space well. I don't like it as the sole organic component, but I do like it in the blend. Recently haven't had the smaller grade of CHC hasn't been available, but I think that is temporary, and I still can get it and use it for my medium and larger pot size mixes.

All in all, I suggest do try vietnamense, understanding it won't forgive you if you neglect repotting or put it in stagnant location. They really don't need anything special beyond that. Grow them like any other Paph that comes from a Karst habitat. Treat them like a concolor or belatullum and you won't have trouble. (the somewhat dry during the cooler winter is what the brachys and parvies like) Still air and high humidity is a recipe for problems. Other than that they seem very forgiving of most conditions. They do come back from small fragments if you keep on top of them. 

Buy 3, and most likely one of the 3 will be with you 10 years later. That one that survives will be the one that is best adapted to your style of growing. It is a choice species with beautiful foliage, enjoyable even without the flowers. 
Well worth try.

I have switched to K-Lite end of December 2012 so 2013 will be my first year of K-Lite. So far only 3 months in I have seen some general improvement in the collection overall, but nothing specific. I will be very curious, my hope is the lower K concentrations will help the vietnamense fight off fungal infections better and help my 'good one' to retain old growths and finally become a multigrowth plant. That is my hope, and so far, so good, but not enough time has passes yet. I probably won't 'know for sure' until late 2014 or even later. I really hope the K-Lite "takes the brakes off" on several of my Paphs, mastersianum, vietnamense, volonteanum, hookerae, dayanum, and a few others are plants that just have not thrived with vigor, they live, and sometimes bloom, but not thrive and I am hoping K-Lite will be the trick.


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Mar 18, 2013)

Alot or people talk about them flowwering and then they die. I have two that I've had from a compot of 3 that seem to be of flowering size, yet single growth plants.. What do you guys and ladies think of keeping them in a darker location (under the bench) and letting them get to be three growth before putting them back into the light and letting them flower.


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## paworsport (Mar 18, 2013)

At home I grow viet and delenatii in the same place but viet is easier in my condition than delenatii

I received a small pot of viet 18 months ago with two plants in the pot, rhe smallest was very small and now it has dobbled in size, the biggest is close to flower.
My delenatii is making a new growth and nothing else.
My water is full of calcium (paris water) and I suppose is not the cup of tea for delenatii
For culture : tap water, peter fertilizer, close to dried compost in winter and average condition in summer ( very hot in my paph room, 32-35 c degre during the day). I have moved one year ago and All my brachy in my new conditions have been growing very fast like the viet. The difference is light : viet is growing with less light than the brachi.

If you have pieces of advices to boost delenatii...

Philippe


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## Rick (Mar 18, 2013)

Leo Schordje said:


> I have switched to K-Lite end of December 2012 so 2013 will be my first year of K-Lite. So far only 3 months in I have seen some general improvement in the collection overall, but nothing specific.



Since I haven't tried any vietnamense, but seen good results with my delenatii, I wasn't going to jump in on this one. But many of the "symptoms" that Leo is describing for his vietnamense seedlings I saw with belatulum seedlings (another limestone crack species). I've started to play around again with brachies (including a large seedling belatulum and a handful of thainanum seedlings) since going to low K, and getting good results.

From looking at the plant physiology litterature, it seems apparent that the more K you give a plant, the lower the Ca and Mg it will be able to uptake (even in the presence of elevated Ca). Limestone is particlularly devoid of K (as opposed to granitic geology where delenatii is found). I wouldn't put it past any karst/limestone based plant to have a bigger problem with K than one that comes from soil/geology types that can have a bit more K available.


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## Rick (Mar 18, 2013)

paworsport said:


> At home I grow viet and delenatii in the same place but viet is easier in my condition than delenatii
> 
> I received a small pot of viet 18 months ago with two plants in the pot, rhe smallest was very small and now it has dobbled in size, the biggest is close to flower.
> My delenatii is making a new growth and nothing else.
> ...



You may want to check the TDS of the potting mix. (With a pour through test). 

I don't think delenatii are partial to high TDS levels concentrating in the potting mix. And flushing with a low TDS water may be all that's needed to jump start your plant.


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## Justin (Mar 18, 2013)

Bob in Albany said:


> Alot or people talk about them flowwering and then they die. I have two that I've had from a compot of 3 that seem to be of flowering size, yet single growth plants.. What do you guys and ladies think of keeping them in a darker location (under the bench) and letting them get to be three growth before putting them back into the light and letting them flower.



hi bob, i've had paphs die when they didn't receive enough light. so darker might be ok but not too much so.

@Leo, i've only grown a handful, but from my experience if extrapolated out i can see your scenario occurring very easily.


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## emydura (Mar 18, 2013)

Yes, I agree delenatii is a lot easier to grow. I bought two plants. One was a large costly plant and the other was a small seedling. The larger plant struggled and eventually died. The small plant grew steadily and is now a good size. It looks quite healthy actually. I was looking at it this morning and I think it is in bud. So fingers crossed.


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## Rick (Mar 18, 2013)

emydura said:


> The small plant grew steadily and is now a good size. It looks quite healthy actually. I was looking at it this morning and I think it is in bud. So fingers crossed.



Is it still a single growth plant David?

The complaints I'm hearing about vietnamense are the same I've been noting for emersonii. But mine really took off after blooming and is up to 4 growths now.


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## emydura (Mar 19, 2013)

Rick said:


> Is it still a single growth plant David?
> 
> The complaints I'm hearing about vietnamense are the same I've been noting for emersonii. But mine really took off after blooming and is up to 4 growths now.



Yes, Rick. No new growths despite it looking like it is about to send up a spike.


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## Linus_Cello (Mar 19, 2013)

If I recall correctly, I believe there was some criticism of the vietnamense that was allowed in the USA years ago before it was prohibited for import. The vietnamense clones in the US were not as strong growers, and possibly had some genetic issues (dies after flowering). However, there were no such restrictions in Europe and other countries; in fact because import was allowed elsewhere, these places possibly got the better clones of vietnamese (stronger growing, better flowers, etc). 

Can this explain why some people say vietnamense is easy, and some say its hard? One person in the US suggests that these are hard (and I believe he's an accomplished sanderianum grower). I think other people have found it relatively easy (I don't recall if these people are in Europe or Asia). Maybe with an international forum, we might see a correlation?


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## Dido (Mar 19, 2013)

I think the gentic of Us is still here too. 

As the first ones was imported with papers from US, so much I know. 

At least a big vendor I know told me that. So not sure if it is true or not. 

You see here 2 lines the ones with the really dark leaves, they do better for me and the ones with more light leaves, I killed them all. Got today 2 new oens fro a not to bad deal, but the ones from him seem to do fine for me. 
Interesting are he changed the medium, the first ones I get are in bark now it is extremly smal with seramis and coconut fibre in it, the smaller ones, has really good roots. 




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## Leo Schordje (Mar 19, 2013)

Bob in Albany said:


> Alot or people talk about them flowwering and then they die. I have two that I've had from a compot of 3 that seem to be of flowering size, yet single growth plants.. What do you guys and ladies think of keeping them in a darker location (under the bench) and letting them get to be three growth before putting them back into the light and letting them flower.



At least in my collection, at my temperatures, a darker location would make my vietnamense more susceptible to rots. At least the way my collection is laid out 'under that bench' would not be a good idea. 

If your under bench area has air movement as good as on top of the bench, then you might not have a problem. But if your under bench area the air does not move as much as on top, you might have more problems. 

Paphs in general I found would get elongated, and new growths would climb out of the potting mix if I kept them too shaded. Then it takes a couple years in brighter than typical light to get them to stop trying to climb with each new growth. 

I don't have a feel for how shady your under bench area is, if you have more than 900 ft candles of light, I would say it would be bright enough. Vietnamense definitely seems to need more light than Paph Maudiae. So I would not shade them too heavily. 

Rather than putting it in the dark, if you are really worried about the one growth plant doing the 'bloom and die', as soon as you see the flower bud coming, pinch it out. Don't let it put much energy into making a flower. The energy will go into make a new growth. If you can bear to do it, don't let it bloom until its got 3 growths. That is a solution I should have tried with my 'one growth wonder', but each time I just couldn't make myself do it. It is such a nice flower I had to let it bloom. 

Hope that helps.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Mar 19, 2013)

I agree that the description of vietnamense growth compares to emersonii. Except in my experience, emersonii is easier to grow, although very slow. I've never gotten vietnamense to blooming size, but emersonii is easy to bloom once it gets there. And then it dies.


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## Rick (Mar 20, 2013)

Ed M brought a first time blooming multigrowth vietnamense into our society meeting last night. It is one of 5 that he purchased 7 (?) years ago from one of the first breedings from the confiscated plants ANTEC rescued.

He said he's had more growth and quality improvement in the last year since implementing his own low K program than in the previous 5-6 years. Apparently one is still is small and crappy looking, but there is a second one that looks to be in bract. But a year ago he was pretty pessamistic about any of them doing any good.


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