# need some help guys, for a surefire mealy killer



## bwester (Sep 12, 2007)

Ok, these mealy bugs are some sort of mutant breed or something. I've treated multiple times with orthenex and malathion and they still eat at my paphs. 
grrrrrrrr
what can i use that is a sure fire mealy killer???


----------



## NYEric (Sep 12, 2007)

alcohol and a Q-Tip.


----------



## tocarmar (Sep 12, 2007)

I have had good luck using 70% alcohol & a Q-tip, it gets down in the leaf axils pretty easy without damage to the plant. The alcohol evaporates really quick as to not damage the plant either.
If you want to use a spray I mix about 60% water to 40% alcohol, just make sure the mix don't sit in the crown of the plant, as it will kill it faster than the mealy bugs.

Tom


----------



## Candace (Sep 12, 2007)

Orthene WP or Merit. I prefer Merit due to me hating the stench of Orthene...but Orthene WP is much less expensive. I also rotate and use Enstar on occasion, but that's very expensive too. With Merit you only use 1/8 tsp. per gallon so a $65 container lasts a long time. And it's worth it!

Sorry guys, but when you own a g.h. and have a sizeable collection, say over several hundred orchids, alchohol and q-tips are about as effective as spitting on them.


----------



## bwester (Sep 12, 2007)

i need some enstar


----------



## Rick Barry (Sep 12, 2007)

I've been battling mealies and sometimes other pests since I started growing orchids. I have come to the conclusion that such pests are impossible to fully eradicate. Even if you were to kill every pest in your collection new pests will undoubtedly arrive shortly. Pests are introduced by a variety of means, some of which are beyond our ability to prevent. 

Newly acquired plants frequently carry the seeds of an infestation in the form of larvae or immature adults. A plant can seem completely pest-free on the surface, only to harbor a nascent colony of nasties just below the surface of the media. The isolation of new plants may be beneficial, but I suspect that in this respect growers may talk a good game, but most of us fail to take effective action. It is difficult or even impossible for most growers to provide such isolation while providing adequate growing conditions. Few of us have the facilities for that.

I assume that all incoming plants have some level of infestation. This may be taken to imply that all commercial growers suffer from some level of infestation. This is probably a gross generalization, but who can say at any point in time just which facilities are currently pest-free? Better to err on the side of caution. Accordingly, I spray all new plants upon arrival. After flowering I always repot every new plant, dousing the entire plant (especially the roots, the incubation area for pests) in an Orthene WP spray.

In maintaining a collection it behooves the grower to become sensitive to even the subtle signs of the presence of pests. As a slipper grower I have become particularly adept at detecting the manifestations of a potential mealybug infestation. Mealies can be associated with the color white, that is, they are white, their nests are white and their immature young appear as white. If I see anything white on a plant, from an individual to a fuzz to even just a speck, I spray the affected plant immediately. 

The key in dealing with pests is regular inspection of each plant. I'm not sure if this can be accomplished in a really large collection, but it would be beneficial. Greenhouse growers tend to treat their orchids collectively while home growers treat their plants individually. The greenhouse grower treats benches, while the home grower treats individual plants. Though the greenhouse approach saves time and energy, the second is far more effective in spotting problems on individual plants. 

I maintain a spray bottle of pre-mixed Orthene at all times. Since insecticides degrade in the presence of light, I cover the spray bottle with black electrical tape. I use Orthene at about double the recommended strength with a spreader-sticker added. I have found that the recommended strength just isn't effective, and a larger dose is a sure killer. 

I have heard that a plant should be well watered prior to spraying for pests. I take the opposite approach, that the medium is more likely to maintain residual or systemic effects if it is allowed to absorb the spray. It seems far more likely to do so if it is sprayed in a dry condition. I have seen no detrimental effects from doing so.

I don't think pests can be eradicated, but they can be controlled. Start by upping the insecticide dosage, and protect yourself at all times.

Regards,
Rick


----------



## Jon in SW Ohio (Sep 12, 2007)

I have Malathion, Diazinon, Alcohol, and Chlordane resistant mealies...only squishing them has proved to actually kill them. 

Jon


----------



## SlipperFan (Sep 12, 2007)

Bayer Tree and Shrub has the same active ingredient as Merit, and is much cheaper. Someone told me to use a proportion of 1 C to 1 gallon of water. This has been working very well for me for mealies, scale and aphids. It can be used as a soil drench, as well, because it is a systemic. I've had no problems with phytotoxicity. But I spray my plants outdoors and leave them in the shade until they are dry.


----------



## gonewild (Sep 12, 2007)

Is "1 C" = 1 cup?


----------



## SlipperFan (Sep 12, 2007)

gonewild said:


> Is "1 C" = 1 cup?



Yes -- someone in our OS calculated that proportion.


----------



## Eric Muehlbauer (Sep 12, 2007)

I have some luck with Bifenthrin....and there used to be stuff with methoprene that worked, but I agree with Rick...mealies are here to stay, and while you can control them, you can never eradicate them. Putting them outdoors for the summer helps lower the mealie population, except for the most severe infestations (and I think we all have some plants in that category), but I doubt that they can ever be wiped out...Eric


----------



## Candace (Sep 12, 2007)

Dot, I have to disagree with you here. I think Bayer SUCKS. The bugs didn't mind it at all. Many people on several forums have found the Bayer product severly lacking and have the same sentiments as me. And for the amount you have to use Merit or Orthene WP works out to be cheaper solutions in the long run. Plus, needing to use a cup per gallon sort of lets on how weak the product is...


----------



## Jon in SW Ohio (Sep 13, 2007)

Do NOT get the Bayer on any gesneriads like african violets etc! I was only using a tablespoon per gallon with no luck, but wow did the gesneriads I watered with it melt quick.

Jon


----------



## likespaphs (Sep 13, 2007)

i've had good luck with talus, marathon ii, safari. these are all fairly expensive chemicals, though.
another option, if plants haven't been sprayed for a while (this amount of time depends on the pesticide(s) used) but if you get lacewing larvae and spread them around they can be very effective....


----------



## NYEric (Sep 13, 2007)

YAY natural solutions!


----------



## SlipperFan (Sep 13, 2007)

Candace said:


> Dot, I have to disagree with you here. I think Bayer SUCKS. The bugs didn't mind it at all. Many people on several forums have found the Bayer product severly lacking and have the same sentiments as me. And for the amount you have to use Merit or Orthene WP works out to be cheaper solutions in the long run. Plus, needing to use a cup per gallon sort of lets on how weak the product is...



Bayer makes several products. Are you sure we are talking about the same one???


----------



## Candace (Sep 13, 2007)

> Bayer makes several products. Are you sure we are talking about the same one???
> __________________



Yup.


----------



## Rick (Sep 13, 2007)

I've been very happy with Bayer (actually I believe it's their "Rose and Bloom" that has Merrit in it). It comes pre mixed in a pump sprayer, and for 5 or 6$ it will work a small collection of 100-300 plants fairly well.

I've gone through the usual alcohol, insecticidal soaps, oils,and predatory insects, but only Merrit (as used in the Bayer product) has made the situation controllable for me.


----------



## gore42 (Sep 13, 2007)

I had great results for several months with the Bayer Rose and Flower spray with Merit. Then I got a plant from a grower in Kansas that had some mealies on it, and they were resistant. They were super-mealies; they have been resistant to quite a few things that I've sprayed o them... luckily, I've been able to quarantine the plants, and I think they're all gone now. I'm going to get some Enstar anyway 

- Matt


----------



## Candace (Sep 13, 2007)

Rick,
If you're happy spending $4.50 to $5.00 a container for the Bayer and you get some ridiculously low% Imidacloprid go for it....If I remember correctly it was close to only 1%. You're mainly paying for water, glycerine and an antifoaming agent.

My Merit WP is 75% Imidacloprid and you only need 1/8 tsp. per gallon. Not a crazy amount like with the Bayer.


----------



## Rick (Sep 14, 2007)

Candace said:


> Rick,
> If you're happy spending $4.50 to $5.00 a container for the Bayer and you get some ridiculously low% Imidacloprid go for it....If I remember correctly it was close to only 1%. You're mainly paying for water, glycerine and an antifoaming agent.
> 
> My Merit WP is 75% Imidacloprid and you only need 1/8 tsp. per gallon. Not a crazy amount like with the Bayer.



Afraid is not just the economy of it. I'm a toxicologist by trade, and I just prefer to own and use as few chemicals as possible. If the beneficial insects had done the trick I would have quite there. I get lots of spiders and occasional lacewings and hover flies in the gh, and I hate to loose all that with tougher chemical regimes. I handle plently of nasty things at work, and prefer not to increase my exposure at home too.


----------



## SlipperFan (Sep 14, 2007)

Rick said:


> I've been very happy with Bayer (actually I believe it's their "Rose and Bloom" that has Merrit in it). It comes pre mixed in a pump sprayer, and for 5 or 6$ it will work a small collection of 100-300 plants fairly well.



That's correct, Rick. The reason for suggesting the Tree & Shrub is because it's the same active ingredient (Imidacloprid) but in a larger bottle that you mix yourself, so it goes a lot further -- importart in you have a lot of orchids you want to treat. The premixed is good if you only have a few plants to treat. 

Merit may be even more economical, but for the amount of orchids I have (about 400), I'd rather spend $40 for two bottles and use them up over a season than over $100 (I presume) and have left over chemical sitting around.

Matt: Interesting about the super mealies. I suspect any chemical will eventually create bugs that are resistent to it.


----------



## Candace (Sep 14, 2007)

Dot, my Merit was around $50 and has lasted me over 3 years....

And it's a powder form there's no 'left over chemical sitting around'.


----------



## likespaphs (Sep 15, 2007)

SlipperFan said:


> ... I suspect any chemical will eventually create bugs that are resistent to it.



yup. that's why pesticide labels speak of practices to _delay _resistance. rotate rotate rotate.


----------



## lienluu (Sep 15, 2007)

SlipperFan said:


> That's correct, Rick. The reason for suggesting the Tree & Shrub is because it's the same active ingredient (Imidacloprid) but in a larger bottle that you mix yourself, so it goes a lot further -- importart in you have a lot of orchids you want to treat. The premixed is good if you only have a few plants to treat.
> 
> Merit may be even more economical, but for the amount of orchids I have (about 400), I'd rather spend $40 for two bottles and use them up over a season than over $100 (I presume) and have left over chemical sitting around.
> 
> Matt: Interesting about the super mealies. I suspect any chemical will eventually create bugs that are resistent to it.




Are you talking about Merit 2.5G for ornamental shrubs & small trees? I bought this instead of Merit 75WSP and now have no idea how to dose it. Is this what you're referring to (the 2.5G)? If it is, how do you mix it?. 

Thanks
Tomas Johannsen


----------



## Heather (Sep 15, 2007)

I found thrips resistant to the Bayer after the initial application. It took moving to do them in. 

BTW, I have my plants outside and plan to bring them in tomorrow. I am not planning to spray with anything as I have had no problems - except there are a few small spiders that I'd prefer not to infiltrate my living quarters. Can I just brush them away and hope they don't re-appear? If they do it's no big deal but....I already have too many of them in my basement and I'm tolerant for a couple weeks and then I vacuum them up.


----------



## likespaphs (Sep 15, 2007)

thrips are super quick to become resistant. leafminers are even faster, i've been told...

i try to trap the spiders in cups then release 'em outside, but i'm funny like that.


----------



## likespaphs (Sep 15, 2007)

this is how you use merit 2.5 g. it's a granular so i don't know how well it'll be picked up by a plant in orchid media but it may work...


----------



## SlipperFan (Sep 15, 2007)

rothschildianum said:


> Are you talking about Merit 2.5G for ornamental shrubs & small trees? I bought this instead of Merit 75WSP and now have no idea how to dose it. Is this what you're referring to (the 2.5G)? If it is, how do you mix it?.
> 
> Thanks
> Tomas Johannsen


Sorry Tomas -- I don't know the dilution rate for Merit. Maybe Candace does.


----------



## NYEric (Sep 16, 2007)

Keep the spiders they're fun to watch.


----------



## likespaphs (Sep 16, 2007)

SlipperFan said:


> Sorry Tomas -- I don't know the dilution rate for Merit. Maybe Candace does.



(pssst... the underlined thing in my post has a link to the label.) it has all the usage instructions. the thing is it is a granular and is not meant to be diluted. as the label says, it's to be spread around the base of the plant...


----------



## practicallyostensible (Feb 19, 2008)

*Mealie Issues*

*Bump*

Hey all, well I've been reading through the old posts to try and get some answers on battling mealies but over the past few weeks have had no luck in combating the little suckers. I've gone through with a q-tip and alcohol everyday, and it just seems like they are spreading. My whole collection is indoors (about 60 slippers) so I am reluctant to use heavy chemicals but I found a few on my favorite lowii this morning... and that means war. Any suggestions????? If it comes to it can I use a systemic spray on plants that are living indoors with me?


----------



## John D. (Feb 20, 2008)

Julia
Going back in the thread a couple products are mentioned. This is spring and the box stores are stocking up. Some stuff get packaging changes and some gets reformulated. The Bayer Advanced "Rose and Flower" was the premixed spray bottle in my area. 24 oz $6-$7 ballpark. read the label =.012% Imidacloprid (Merit) and .0015% B-cyfluthrin (Tempo ultra) 

A quart of Bayer advanced "Complete Insect Killer" was about $18 =.72% Imidacloprid. and also contains Tempo ultra. Dilute that 60 to 1 (1.5 teaspoons in a pint of water) in a spray bottle and you make 60 quarts of spray for a lot less. Spray the top of the medium as well as the plant to get where they hide. 

And yes it is OK indoors, be carefull to use good care as with any chemicals, don't get it on you if you can help it and wash up well.


----------



## Ron-NY (Feb 20, 2008)

John I don't recall the % of midacloprid (Merit) but Bayer Advance also make a tree and shrub systemic...I have used that one.


----------



## Park Bear (Feb 20, 2008)

I use Enstar II and Merit twice a year....when I take them outsidein the spring and just before I bring them in for the winter. I also add protekt or any like product to my watering schedule (weekly). I have not hand any buggs for a year now.


----------



## Grandma M (Feb 20, 2008)

Park Bear said:


> I use Enstar II and Merit twice a year....when I take them outsidein the spring and just before I bring them in for the winter. I also add protekt or any like product to my watering schedule (weekly). I have not hand any buggs for a year now.



Does protekt help for red spider? I fight with that.


----------



## Park Bear (Feb 20, 2008)

the simple way it was explained to was it makes the plant harder to eat and less tastey


----------



## Rick (Feb 20, 2008)

Grandma M said:


> Does protekt help for red spider? I fight with that.


ProteKt is a potash solution with high silicates.

So you get a bunch of potassium hydroxide with a bunch of silicates. Adding silicates has the potential of stiffening/thickening cell walls, and potentially making them more resistent to disease and pests.


----------



## Elena (Feb 20, 2008)

I noticed a couple of scale on my Psychopsis spike a few weeks ago  so I got Provado Ultimate Bug Killer by Bayer. The active ingredient is imidacloprid. I have 2 cats but I think I think it's fairly safe (same stuff as used in flea collars??) as long as you are careful, like with any chemical. After a few treatments I've not seen any more scale :evil:


----------



## Park Bear (Feb 20, 2008)

I knew Rick would get in here and give the real scientific answer.....he is an Orchid God


----------



## Leo Schordje (Feb 20, 2008)

*Enstar should be used as part of a cocktail - never use it alone*

I'm reading this thread for the first time. If you have more than 50 orchids you really should not fool around with half measures. It is possible to kill off mealy bug infestations completely, but you must resort to chemical warfare. 

First - about Enstar II, according to the original Sandoz labelling it was not designed to be used alone. It is not efective that way. It was designed to be used as part of a tank mix (cocktail) when applied to the plant. The other component originally recomended was Mavrik, another Sandoz product that is a relatively inexpensive 2nd generation synthetic pyrethroid. The combination at manufacturer's recomended dose works wonders. When I find a mealie infestation I spray my collection with this mix twice, about 10 to 14 days apart. And that is it. I have had 100% kill of all pests with this mixture. Generally I do this in the Fall, after a frost so that I get few or no new recruits from outside. My collection will stay clean until mid summer following. Which means there are no significant populations of mealies hiding and survivng. The new recruits come in from outside or come in on new acquisitions. 

Tank mix cocktails that have worked for me include:
Mavrik + Enstar II 
Mavrik + Enstar II + Pentac WP + 2 drops wetter sticker
Decathalon WP + Enstar II + Pentac WP + 2 drops wetter sticker
Decathalon WP + Enstar II + wetter sticker
Merit + Enstar II
Merit + Enstar II + Pentac WP

The patttern is use a cocktail, use WP or AD formulations when possible. (fewer problems with effects from the solvents) I add Pentac WP when I see evidence of spider mites or false spider mites. The 3 part cocktail kills 'em all and lets God sort 'em out. 

These chemicals are not cheap to buy, but are very effective in these types of combinations and become cheap to use because they work, which means you use them less often. 

You must wear protective gear, and must get out of the growing area until the foliage is dry once you have used these things. Take a shower afterward, change clothes. don't go back into the greenhouse or growing area until the next day. 

My collection is too valuable to fool around with half measures. So I do what the commercial guys do. When I use this mix on 'house plants' or orchids that are grown in the home, I move all the plants to an outdoor patio (weather permitting) or a garage. Then spray there. Clean the house area where the plants were before putting the plants back. Bring the plants back in once they are dry. Key is spray everybody, don't skip any plants because they look 'clean', sure enough this is where a pregnant mealie will be hiding. 

There are other chemicals that work, but key is, 2 applications, close enough together that juvinal mealies from eggs hatching after the intitial spray don't have a chance to mature and start egg laying before the second spray. The second key is use a cocktail that include a growth hormone regulator. This is what really breaks the pernicious infestations. Use it in the cocktail. 
Cheers
Leo


----------



## NYEric (Feb 20, 2008)

I'll abstain, thanx!


----------



## Corbin (Feb 21, 2008)

Candace said:


> Sorry guys, but when you own a g.h. and have a sizeable collection, say over several hundred orchids, alchohol and q-tips are about as effective as spitting on them.




We should all be so luckyoke:


----------



## NYEric (Feb 22, 2008)

Leo Schordje said:


> Tank mix cocktails that have worked for me include:
> Mavrik + Enstar II
> Mavrik + Enstar II + Pentac WP + 2 drops wetter sticker
> Decathalon WP + Enstar II + Pentac WP + 2 drops wetter sticker
> ...


This looks like a WW 1 trench warfare chemist's diary! :sob:


----------



## Leo Schordje (Feb 22, 2008)

It is warfare, when you have $$$$ worth of orchids, you need to keep the collection as insect free as possible. If you let a chronic infestation develop you end up spreading virus besides the direct damage from the mealies and aphids. Aphids do spread virus, and once infected virus is forever. SO in order to control virus, I am a zealot when it comes to insect control. 
Leo


----------



## Candace (Feb 22, 2008)

I'm with you Leo. I guess some people have lots of money to throw down the toilet. I'm a bug and virus zealot, too.


----------



## likespaphs (Feb 23, 2008)

NYEric said:


> This looks like a WW 1 trench warfare chemist's diary! :sob:




actually, those are all pretty modern pesticides which may or may not be "reduced risk". it's the old school stuff you really have to worry about as some of those really are modified nerve agents that may have been used back then....


----------



## Mrs. Paph (Mar 1, 2008)

Funny, I'm a North Dakota certified private applicator (did it for class, and to add to my resume), but I've never been one for chemicals unless Really necessary, but I've finally reached necessary I guess and had to look up this thread and get myself some Bayer Advanced Rose and Flower...errr First Paph I ever got was from a 'going out of business sale' (learned my lesson there, the cranky lady taking my order should have been my 1st clue to hang up and order elsewhere...), so now years and years later, sometimes going months w/o seeing another soft scale, I see they've found my yummy little fast growing henryanum seedlings, so it's time for them to just be GONE. 
On a non-chemical note, I did very nearly get rid of them ~1yr ago using seed grown citrus as a trap crop, since these particular scale must prefer key limes to orchids - when I noticed I was picking less off orchids, and the key limes were covered, I threw the limes out, along w/ most of the scale - I may save some more pie making leftovers and plant some seedlings again after a couple treatments w/ the imid. and test the effectiveness :evil: If they suddenly become covered in jumbo sized soft scale again (they grew much more robustly on the citrus, sappy gunk everywhere and Much larger than they ever get on my orchids), then I'll bag em and throw em out and start over again and see how long it takes me to divert all the little buggers 
....If anyone would like my key lime pie recipe, just let me know:evil::rollhappy:


----------



## NYEric (Mar 3, 2008)

Just a slice of pie thanx! Good luck w/ the bug war.


----------



## practicallyostensible (Mar 22, 2008)

Well, I am pleased to announce that what has been not so affectionately termed "The Great Mealy Crisis of 2008" seems to be over. I lost a few great plants and a bunch of brachys, but things seem to be fine now (knock on wood). I haven't seen a mealy in a week, but regardless, everything got sprayed with Bayer Tree and Shrub today, and I have a bottle of Malathion waiting in my cupboard. From here on out I am going to spray and quarantine all new plants, I've been quite stupid not to in the past.


----------



## kellyincville (Mar 23, 2008)

Glad the battle has been successful.

Question on the same topic...how long do you all keep plants in quarantine after the last time you see a mealie? I picked up a compot about a month ago that arrived _covered_ in mealies. Went through the song and dance and haven't seen one in three weeks.


----------



## paphreek (Mar 23, 2008)

kellyincville said:


> Glad the battle has been successful.
> 
> Question on the same topic...how long do you all keep plants in quarantine after the last time you see a mealie? I picked up a compot about a month ago that arrived _covered_ in mealies. Went through the song and dance and haven't seen one in three weeks.



The conventional wisdom is quarantine them for at least three treatments 7-10 days apart.


----------



## NYEric (Mar 23, 2008)

practicallyostensible said:


> From here on out I am going to spray and quarantine all new plants, I've been quite stupid not to in the past.


 Hopefully we all learn from these mistakes!


----------

