# Micranthum



## dodidoki (Dec 25, 2012)

Dear All!
I need help, my mic doesn't get well at all, does nothing for one year (1 leaf/ year....). I need infos about potting mix, watering, fertilizing, light, humidity.


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## NYEric (Dec 25, 2012)

If you're growing inside and can keep them warm try straight sphagnum.


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## The Orchid Boy (Dec 25, 2012)

Maybe try cool to cold temps during the winter months. I'm going to watch this thread a lot because I want to know how to grow one too.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Dec 25, 2012)

Welcome to the wonderful world of micranthum! Sounds like you are describing mine...and they get a long season outdoors and a winter in a cool room.


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## The Orchid Boy (Dec 25, 2012)

What are your winter/summer temperatures?


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## Rick (Dec 25, 2012)

Over the years mine have gone through boom and bust cycles. Sometimes bust all the way to death after a few years.

I have a few now that seem to be recovering. The less fert I use the better they seem to do.

Low K / high Ca/Mg for sure, but it seems like they've been doing their best to make a comeback since I cut total N per feeding down to around 25-40 ppm (no more than weekly).

They don't like high temps in the high 80's, but they don't seem to require temps below 50 to get them happy either.

Look up some of Leo's (many) posts on growing them in his basement.


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## dodidoki (Dec 26, 2012)

Many thanks for reply, I keep it under light tube (fluora), distance about 80 cm, humidity about 80% constantla, temperature 1618 celsius. Potting media is bark with some chopped shell, watering with rain water, RO if rain water get empty, watering once per 8-10 days ( if water drops disappear from inside of pot).

My vittatum did this for 2 years,too, this winter something happened, two new leaves and 3 new roots started.I changed many things in my geenhouse, all of plants get well, I'm glad, only micranthum is standing.


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## Cheyenne (Dec 26, 2012)

dodidoki said:


> Many thanks for reply, I keep it under light tube (fluora), distance about 80 cm, humidity about 80% constantla, temperature 1618 celsius. Potting media is bark with some chopped shell, watering with rain water, RO if rain water get empty, watering once per 8-10 days ( if water drops disappear from inside of pot).
> 
> My vittatum did this for 2 years,too, this winter something happened, two new leaves and 3 new roots started.I changed many things in my geenhouse, all of plants get well, I'm glad, only micranthum is standing.



I think its your temp 1618 celcius is pretty dam hot. I am surprised they lasted that long. I think they would be dead in about 1 minute. oke:


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## dodidoki (Dec 26, 2012)

Cheyenne said:


> I think its your temp 1618 celcius is pretty dam hot. I am surprised they lasted that long. I think they would be dead in about 1 minute. oke:



Oh, I mean 16-18 celsius.


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## Dido (Dec 26, 2012)

micranthum dont like calcium too much. 

They do well in pure bark and in kanuma for me, now I mix the both, they like to be humid all the time. 
Keep them even cooler in winter time.


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## dodidoki (Dec 26, 2012)

Dido said:


> micranthum dont like calcium too much.
> 
> They do well in pure bark and in kanuma for me, now I mix the both, they like to be humid all the time.
> Keep them even cooler in winter time.



Interesting. Other says that mic loves calcium. Kanuma is a little acidic, isn't it?


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## Dido (Dec 26, 2012)

Not sure, 

but at 2 of the best growers in germany you see them liek that. 
One have the bad one in pure Kanuma the others are in a mix of abrk and kanuma. 
Mine do better in this mix, for armenacums I add a kind of limestone to this mix


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## goldenrose (Dec 26, 2012)

dodidoki said:


> ..... watering once per 8-10 days ( if water drops disappear from inside of pot).
> 
> My vittatum did this for 2 years,too, this winter something happened, two new leaves and 3 new roots started.I changed many things in my geenhouse, all of plants get well, I'm glad, only micranthum is standing.


what size pot? Is this your watering schedule in the summer months as well? How are the roots?


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## dodidoki (Dec 26, 2012)

6 cm across pot, roots are okay but no any new root for 1 year.

Something is not clear for me after that: does mic like lime or not?


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## dodidoki (Dec 26, 2012)

goldenrose said:


> what size pot? Is this your watering schedule in the summer months as well? How are the roots?




Watering in summer was more frequent because of hot summer, nowadays I try to go on mostly arteficial conditions independently from weather.


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## Rick (Dec 26, 2012)

Dido said:


> Not sure,
> 
> but at 2 of the best growers in germany you see them liek that.
> One have the bad one in pure Kanuma the others are in a mix of abrk and kanuma.
> Mine do better in this mix, for armenacums I add a kind of limestone to this mix



Given that they grow on limestone cliffs, they can't be too alergic to Ca.

However, I keep hearing that much of the water available for irrigation in Europe is very hard (full of soluble Ca/Mg). So even if you don't have any calcareous materials supplemented in the potting mix, they get plenty in the irrigation water.

Leo's plants also get plenty of soluble Ca since the water he generally uses has very high hardness also. This seems to be able to offset potassium toxicity from fertilizers with high potassium concentrations.

In the future I understand he will be using a low K fert and reduce the hardness of his irrigation water (using more RO). 

However,


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## The Orchid Boy (Dec 26, 2012)

Normal paph temps in summer? What kind of temps in winter? Do you grow micranthums and armeniacums the same or similar?


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## SlipperKing (Dec 26, 2012)

I don't know about lime or not but apparently it doesn't like to dry between waterings. A friend in Calif. grows a number of clones in straight sphagnum and does very well. I have one he gave me in sphagnum and it fine so far (6 weeks) Others I have are in Orchiata and are kept damp to wet..never dry. All are doing fine so far. I do use the K Lite fert 1 out of every 4 times watering. Strong sun in the winter.


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## Rick (Dec 26, 2012)

SlipperKing said:


> I don't know about lime or not but apparently it doesn't like to dry between waterings. A friend in Calif. grows a number of clones in straight sphagnum and does very well. I have one he gave me in sphagnum and it fine so far (6 weeks) Others I have are in Orchiata and are kept damp to wet..never dry. All are doing fine so far. I do use the K Lite fert 1 out of every 4 times watering. Strong sun in the winter.



Keep in mind that Orchiata bark is lime impregnated, and K lite fert has more Ca than K (even if you use it in straight RO or rain water).

There's not a plant on earth that doesn't require Ca, but it's not worth arguing whether micranthum has a special Ca need greater than other species.

Remember the whole premise of the K-lite program was that excess K blocks the uptake of Ca/Mg, which is needed in all plants.


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## Stone (Dec 26, 2012)

dodidoki said:


> Interesting. Other says that mic loves calcium. Kanuma is a little acidic, isn't it?



Its not the Calcium thats the problem. Its the carbonate, anything over pH 6.5 to 7 and you will start to get problems with nutrient avaiability-especially Iron. I think you would do well to start off micranthum at pH 6 and add a little dolomite if your pH drifts down too much. Say to 5.5. You should check media pH every six months or so until you get a ''feel'' for what going on in the mix. You should totally forget the ''Limestone Factor'' and try duplicating thier habitat conditions by adding lots of lime. Its obvious that if they can do well in sphagnum, they need ACIDIC conditions at the roots. Alkalinity always causes trouble. For example cactus growers are well aware that trying to grow Ariocarpus species (which grow in nothing but limestone chips in Mexico) in an alkaline media (greater than pH 6.5), they just won't grow! And its the same with all other ''lime loving plants''- in the pot at least, they need slightly acid conditions if they are to prosper. As dido has said micranthum does well in Kanuma pH 5.5 and bark. Calcium is very important but you can easily over do it with the lime or dolomite or other forms of Calcium carbonate.
If you use Calcium nitrate for your N you should not need to add any other Ca. If you use Ammonium or Urea as your N, your pH will drift down and eventually you will need to add lime. If you look at the ''Limestone Paphs'', they often grow in moss or the remains of moss along with a little clay and humus etc. Moss simply will not grow with more than fractional amounts of carbonate so I believe it should be slightly acid for ALL paphs but with a source of Calcium always present from Calnitrate or bone or Gypsum or whatever.


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## dodidoki (Dec 27, 2012)

Stone said:


> Its not the Calcium thats the problem. Its the carbonate, anything over pH 6.5 to 7 and you will start to get problems with nutrient avaiability-especially Iron. I think you would do well to start off micranthum at pH 6 and add a little dolomite if your pH drifts down too much. Say to 5.5. You should check media pH every six months or so until you get a ''feel'' for what going on in the mix. You should totally forget the ''Limestone Factor'' and try duplicating thier habitat conditions by adding lots of lime. Its obvious that if they can do well in sphagnum, they need ACIDIC conditions at the roots. Alkalinity always causes trouble. For example cactus growers are well aware that trying to grow Ariocarpus species (which grow in nothing but limestone chips in Mexico) in an alkaline media (greater than pH 6.5), they just won't grow! And its the same with all other ''lime loving plants''- in the pot at least, they need slightly acid conditions if they are to prosper. As dido has said micranthum does well in Kanuma pH 5.5 and bark. Calcium is very important but you can easily over do it with the lime or dolomite or other forms of Calcium carbonate.
> If you use Calcium nitrate for your N you should not need to add any other Ca. If you use Ammonium or Urea as your N, your pH will drift down and eventually you will need to add lime. If you look at the ''Limestone Paphs'', they often grow in moss or the remains of moss along with a little clay and humus etc. Moss simply will not grow with more than fractional amounts of carbonate so I believe it should be slightly acid for ALL paphs but with a source of Calcium always present from Calnitrate or bone or Gypsum or whatever.



Very interesting what you wrote, many thanks for that. I think I will try mic in shagnum with living fern. I have a zieckianum and very happy in sphagnum with fern, grow very fast however previously all ziekcs grew very slowly in any media what I tried. I only watered every 3 weeks, in 80-90 % humidity shagnum doesn't dries out at all.( I have some sphagnum stored in greenhouse and always wet however I don't water it at all )


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## Rick (Dec 27, 2012)

I would agree with much of Stones summary.

One thing to note is that alkalinity is not the same as pH and hardness (the measure of Ca and Mg concentration). So if you add things that increase alkalinity like lime or baking soda, the plants will require more of their nitrogen from ammonia rather than nitrate, and you could end up with nitrogen starvation in highly alkaline systems no matter how much nitrate you through on them.

Calcium nitrate (a big component of K-lite) has lots of Ca, but no alkalinity. It's use should be limited to low alkalinity systems to ensure the nitrogen ends up in plants.

Alkalinity if from hydroxide, carbonate and bicarbonate. The addition of pH buffering materials in potting mixes (like horticultural lime and oyster shell) not only supply calcium but supply alkalinity. You also can get a lot of alkalinity from standard surface or well waters.

Micranthum grow very well in low alkalinity systems, but you just need to keep in mind that when you manipulate one item you actually change two or three things.


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## Rick (Dec 27, 2012)

Stone said:


> Its the carbonate, anything over pH 6.5 to 7 and you will start to get problems with nutrient avaiability-especially Iron. I think you would do well to start off micranthum at pH 6 and add a little dolomite if your pH drifts down too much. Say to 5.5. You should check media pH every six months or so until you get a ''feel'' for what going on in the mix. You should totally forget the ''Limestone Factor'' and try duplicating thier habitat conditions by adding lots of lime.




I like this section a lot Mike.

There is a big difference between limestone and lime. And most of it revolves around the solubiltiy (or lack thereof) and the release of alkalinity in agriculture lime products.

As noted mosses grow directly on limestone rock, and still require acidic conditions. If you put chunks of limestone in water you would see very little change in pH compared to putting in the equivalent mass in horticultural lime or oyster shell.

In the case of the mosses, the acidity from the moss/algae complex slowly disolves the relatively inert limestone away to provide calcium and a bit of pH control (alkalinity) to keep from getting out of control acidic (like in a spagnum bog).


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## atlantis (Dec 31, 2012)

Dido said:


> micranthum dont like calcium too much.
> 
> They do well in pure bark and in kanuma for me, now I mix the both, they like to be humid all the time.
> Keep them even cooler in winter time.



I was talking last month with a french vendor about _P. micranthum _because mine has been doing nothing for a looooong time (not dying but not growing) and that was exactly what he told me to do.

He suggested to keep them cold and wet in winter (yes, wet even in winter). He´s using only fine bark, charcoal and perlite as medium, adding some dolomite twice a year (but not including any source of Calcium in the mix). 
I can´t tell you anything about the fertilizer regime because I forgot it. Sorry 

I´ll try this method for the next season (I have nothing to lose).

I hope this could help you with your tough micranthum.


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## Rick (Dec 31, 2012)

atlantis said:


> .
> 
> He´s using only fine bark, charcoal and perlite as medium, adding some dolomite twice a year (but not including any source of Calcium in the mix).



Dolomite is an excellent source of Calcium. It is a type of limestone, but has a higher percentage (up to 50%) of magnesium in it. If this is actually agricultural pelletized dolomitic lime, it is powdered dolomitic limestone held together with a polymeric binder. It disolves very quickly with watering to boost pH (since it supplies a lot of alkalinity too).

Also what is the nature of the irrigaiotn water used? Unless it is RO or rain water, then it will also have a good amount of calcium in it.

So at this point I don't see any evidence that micranthu do not like calcium.


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