# Merit of adding Mycorrhizae to potting medium



## Kawarthapine (Apr 10, 2016)

I am wondering whether there is any merit in adding endo and ecto myco strains to my potting mix to enhance soil chemistry, nutrient uptake plant vigour.

Any experience or advice would be appreciated.

Duncan


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## NYEric (Apr 10, 2016)

There should be some for seedlings. There are other posts here on STF about this.


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## Kawarthapine (Apr 10, 2016)

I should have phrased my question better. 

I am trying to figure out if one strain of myco is better than another, and if wet or dry applications make a difference.


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## naoki (Apr 10, 2016)

Where are you getting those? In Europe, there are some source for fungi associated with terrestrial orchid such as Dactylorhiza (B1). In South Australia, I heard that native orchid society of Austria (NOSSA) is distributing some fungi. It was posted on their Facebook (April 2, 2016 post). In Japan and Korea, there is some orchid mycorrhizal fungi for sale (I'm not sure if it is still in the market). I haven't found a source of orchid related fungi in the US. Is it available in Canada?

To answer your question, the different species and strains will have different effects (there are some scientific experiments).


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## paphioboy (Apr 11, 2016)

I have not used this but to my knowledge, orchid mycorrhizae can be quite host-specific. General mycorrhizae for other crops/flowers may not be compatible with orchids.


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## troy (Apr 11, 2016)

Inocucor is a live culture beneficial, although I'm not sure what affect synthetic fertilizers has on it


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## Ray (Apr 11, 2016)

Basically, nothing negative.

Nitrogen will cause the bacteria to grow and reproduce faster, having more effect on the plant.


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## gego (Apr 11, 2016)

I have read and was mentioned here that urea is a better food for these critters.


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## Kawarthapine (Apr 11, 2016)

There are several products available in Canada. Bustan urban Gardening Essentials, based in Toronto lists several products incl.:

Hydro Organics Rooters Mycorrhizae Blend
Mykos Pure Mycorrhizal Innoculum
Humboldt Nutrients Myco Maximum Granular

These products, available in dry and liquid formulations contain several different varieties of myco bacteria as well as nutrients.

Many of my indoor gardening friends swear by the stuff.

Duncan


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## Ray (Apr 12, 2016)

gego said:


> I have read and was mentioned here that urea is a better food for these critters.




That may be, but nitrates and ammoniums are apparently also effective.

After the Exxon Valdez spill, Elf Aquitaine (now Total) sprayed an emulsion of olive oil and a commercial fertilizer (Elf used to make fertilizers, too, and being a petrochemical company, it seems likely they were a mix of nitrogen sources) on a few miles of Prince William Sound. The fertilizer stimulated the growth of the indigenous flora and fauna, who rapidly consumed the easy-to-digest olive oil carbon source, allowing the population to explode. When the olive oil was gone, they started in in the spilled crude.

In just 6 weeks, there was no trace of oil, and unlike the steaming going on elsewhere, the ecology was unaffected, as the microorganisms populations just subsided back to normal levels.

It was so successful, we made a business unit to apply the technology to other spills, such as rail yards. It turns out to be effective with in-situ toxic waste digestion, too.


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## cnycharles (Apr 12, 2016)

Cool


Elmer Nj


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## naoki (Apr 12, 2016)

Duncan, take a look at the species in these products. None of them seem to contain known fungi for orchids. When you are looking at the list, the following genus is known to form mycorrhizae with photosynthetic orchids (I'm excluding myco-heterotrophic orchids, which seems to be able to use quite different kinds of fungi). I'm grouping them based on the larger grouping (Order and family). I think I compiled this from 
Rasmussen, H. N. 2002, Recent developments in the study of orchid mycorrhiza. Plant and Soil 244(1): 149-163. (link to abstract, which might not work).

## Order: Cantharellales, Family: Ceratobasidiaceae
Ceratobasidium
Rhizoctonia 

## Order: Cantharellales, Family: Hydnaceae
Sistotrema

## Order: Sebacinaceae, Family: Sebacinaceae
Serendipity

## Order: Agaricales, Family: Mycenaceae
Mycena

## Order: Tulasnellales Family: Tulasnellaceae
Tulasnella
Epulorhiza

Most of the fungi seem to be sporophytic (breaks down organic matters), but you might notice that some of them can be plant pathogens. For example, Rhizoctonia repens is a mild pathogen for most plants, but they forms mycorrhiza with orchids (documented with Cymbidium goeringii).

Here is a  link to a newer review:
Dearnaley, John (2007). Further advances in orchid mycorrhizal research. Mycorrhiza, 17 (6): 475-486. ISSN 0940-6360.


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## gego (Apr 12, 2016)

From my readings, critters consume either amino acid or ammonium.


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## gonewild (Apr 12, 2016)

gego said:


> From my readings, critters consume either amino acid or ammonium.



Not that limited. Here's one example for fungi... 
http://scialert.net/fulltext/?doi=biotech.2012.296.306


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## JAB (Apr 12, 2016)

I nominate Naoki for the "Most Awesomest Forum Member" Award! He is always sharing great info that is sound! Thanks amigo!! You rock!


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## naoki (Apr 12, 2016)

Gego, which "critters" are you talking about? EM-1 and Inocucor are mostly bacteria with some yeast-type fungi. Obviously bacteria can use wide variety of N source (NO2, NO3, NH3, organic, and even atmospheric N2), and different species uses different subset. If you are talking about Orchid mycorrhizal fungi, I'm not sure if we know about it. Some fungi (including some ecotmycorrhizal fungi) appear to prefer ammoniacal and organic N over NH3 as you said, but I'm not sure if it is generalizable. Orchid fungi are completely different species from those other mycorrhizal fungi.

Thanks, JAB, but I should be clear that I'm not trained in mycology (I'm trying to learn because my 4 year old son is fascinated about mushrooms). It is all from my casual reading about the topic. So I can be wrong about what I say.


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## gego (Apr 12, 2016)

gonewild said:


> Not that limited. Here's one example for fungi...
> http://scialert.net/fulltext/?doi=biotech.2012.296.306



This is a different process, nitrogen removal. We are talking about critters having this relationship with our plants. They need organic source of nitrogen and the by product is exchanged to our plants as nutrient, in a very simple terms.
Please check Naoki's posts above. That is more scientific.
This topic is very popular with the cannabis guys and they use this principle. These critters if they are already present in the media, need to be fed with organic food. These guys either use amino acid from organic fert or urea in their regiment in addition to nitrates.

I also read that in high altitude tropical forest floor, amino acid (decomposing matters) is the dominant source of nitrogen for these little guys and so for our precious paphs.


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## gonewild (Apr 12, 2016)

gego said:


> This is a different process, nitrogen removal. We are talking about critters having this relationship with our plants. They need organic source of nitrogen and the by product is exchanged to our plants as nutrient, in a very simple terms.
> Please check Naoki's posts above. That is more scientific.
> This topic is very popular with the cannabis guys and they use this principle. These critters if they are already present in the media, need to be fed with organic food. These guys either use amino acid from organic fert or urea in their regiment in addition to nitrates.
> 
> I also read that in high altitude tropical forest floor, amino acid (decomposing matters) is the dominant source of nitrogen for these little guys and so for our precious paphs.



What little guys are you referring to? Fungi? Sorry if I misunderstood what you meant when you said the critters only eat ammonium or amino acid.

If the critters you refer to eat urea (ammonia) then they are removing Nitrogen just as in the example link I gave.

I've been saying for years that micro organisms produce compounds including amino acids that orchids gain nutrients from, I do understand the process/relationship.


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## gonewild (Apr 12, 2016)

Mycrorrhiza....
_
"It has been reported that extraradical hyphae take up inorganic nitrogen and transport it to intraradical hyphae in the form of amino acids (Govindarajulu et al. 2005). There, it is released in the form of ammonia into the apoplast where it can be used by the cells of the root (Chalot et al. 2006). In addition, the transport of nitrate via mycorrhizal fungi to the host plant has been demonstrated preferentially under drought when nitrate diffusion in the soil is reduced (Tobar et al. 1994)."_

Quote from;
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2799628/


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## Kawarthapine (Apr 12, 2016)

Naoki:

Thank you for the depth of information provided.

Most of my work-related botanical experience relates to tall and mixed grass prairie ecosystems, terrestrial and riparian ecosystem restorations.

Indoor orchid culture is a hobby slowly turning into an obsession.

I really need to learn more about soil chemistry and not 'leap before looking.'

Input and experience from you and your peers make this website a tremendous resource.

Thank you.

Duncan

PS: same goes for all you other orchid maniacs!


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## NYEric (Apr 14, 2016)

JAB said:


> I nominate Naoki for the "Most Awesomest Forum Member" Award! He is always sharing great info that is sound! Thanks amigo!! You rock!



Fairbanks, Alaska, not much else to do! oke:


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## naoki (Apr 14, 2016)

NYEric said:


> Fairbanks, Alaska, not much else to do! oke:



Haha, that is true, no orchid show or orchid shop to visit!


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## naoki (Apr 15, 2016)

A couple quick things to add.

I was reading a Japanese book about Cymbidium goeringii (this one), and it mentioned the results of Korean University researcher. He isolated Tulasnella repent from some Cymbidium, and inoculated seedlings from flask and compared them to the control (no inoculation). After 1 year, the size of the inoculated seedlings were 1.1-1.5x larger. More significantly, rate of developing certain disease was < 1/5. Different variety of Cymbidium appear to have responded differently (1 variety got more benefits). I don't have the access to the original article, so I'm not sure about the statistical significance. But it seems to be a huge difference. He commercialized the product, which is called Oh-chid, but I haven't found any info about it. This product could infect fairly distant orchids (e.g. Phalaenopsis (Sedinera) japonica).

After looking around more info, the researcher is Kee Yoeup Paek (link to his ResearchGate) from Chungbuk University (Korea). I found a link to the abstract of their Chinese article about Oh-chid trial.

Another interesting thing is from a relatively recent article:

Sathiyadash, K. et al. 2012, Mycorrhizal association and morphology in orchids. Journal of Plant Interactions 7(3): 238-247.

They looked at 31 adult wild or cultivated orchids (all photosynthetic, some terrestrial, but majority is epiphytic). All orchids including epiphytes show strong association with fungi. The study included Acampae, Aerides, Bulbophyllum, Coelogyne, Cymbidium, Dendrobium, Epidendrum, Eulophia, Gastrochilus, Habenaria, Luisia, Malaxis, Oberonia, Polystachya, Rhyncostylis, Robiequetia, Satyrium, Sirhookeriana, Spathoglottis, Vanda, Vanilla. I'm guessing that non-Indian orchids are under cultivation (they didn't mention which one is from wild and which one is from cultivation). The infection rate doesn't seem to be drastically low in non-indian species, which is a bit surprising to me.

Another interesting thing is that infected region is patchy in roots of epiphytes. Here is the quote:

"All epiphytic species occurred in association with accumulated organic debris, mosses, and other plants. Aerial roots were colonized only when they were in contact with the substrate, while the roots which were not in contact were free from colonization."

It makes sense, but this might be a part of the reason why mounted and potted orchids may require a bit different fertigation scheme.


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## Ray (Apr 16, 2016)

naoki said:


> It makes sense, but this might be a part of the reason why mounted and potted orchids may require a bit different fertigation scheme.




I think the rapid drying is probably more significant.

While having the specific microorganisms for each plant would be ideal, I have to wonder just how necessary that is.

Speaking VERY generally, many of these plant-related microorganisms release a variety of chemicals that break down chitin and cellulose, releasing nutrients and sugars, auxins that stimulate growth, plus amino acids and who-knows-what else. If they do so in association with the plant, the plant will benefit.

Now, maybe the specificity is necessary for seed germination, and maybe the benefits of the association would be maximized if we had the "right one", but the benefits of these inoculants are there nonetheless.


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## gonewild (Apr 16, 2016)

Ray said:


> While having the specific microorganisms for each plant would be ideal, I have to wonder just how necessary that is.



Ideal or not it will be impossible. Importing orchids is not easy but imagine how difficult it would be to import and release, into the environment, foreign fungi.


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## gego (Apr 16, 2016)

Hahaha, need to go thru TSA. 

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## naoki (Apr 16, 2016)

I agree, Ray, this stuff is interesting. I used to think that mycorrhizal fungi in cultivated orchids are unlikely, but I think it is probably not the case. Specificity of fungi-orchid relationship is still getting investigated. There was a paper about Cypripedium with narrow specificity (except C. califonicum). On the other hand, in some plants, you may observe narrow specificity in nature, but they are capable of using other fungi if there is no other choice. It is suspected that the fungi at the germination stage could be different from that of adult stage. In general, for seed germination, orchids seem to use a wider variety of fungi. At this stage, it is not mutualistic, and orchids are just eating fungi, so they don't have to be picky. But at the adult stage, they are expected to offer carbon to fungi, so they want to find a good partner who doesn't cheat.

Also, there may be a better fungus than what orchids generally associate with under cultivation. These may not be optimum for each species, but it may be better for wide range of orchids. I think Dr. Kee Yoeup Paek inoculated other orchids (Blettila and Neofinetia) in addition to Cymbidium with the fungi isolated from Cymbidium. There was no data presented, but it mentioned that there was a positive effects in all 3 hosts plants. These 3 orchids are all in Epidendroideae (Paphs are in Cypripedioideae), but they are fairly distantly related within Epidendroideae.

Well, people used to grow orchids with heavy application of fungicide as preventative measure and high dosage of P (generally negative effect on mycorrhizae formation, but I'm not sure if it is the case for orchid mycorrhizae), so we know that fungi is not "necessary" (unless you are growing non-photosynthetic orchids). But I think that there could be some fungi which can be used widely. 10-50% increase in growth rate isn't easy to achieve.

I don't know about the regulation part, Lance. Trichoderma seems to be marketed all over the world, though.


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## gonewild (Apr 16, 2016)

naoki said:


> I don't know about the regulation part, Lance. Trichoderma seems to be marketed all over the world, though.



I was referring to the idea of finding the actual fungi that a wild orchids associates with. To be able to import/export the living fungi would require a huge amount of pre research and proof that the living organism would not harm the importing countries environment. basically the same costs as registering a new pesticide.


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## gego (Apr 16, 2016)

Naoki, we need to know what these fungi are feeding to the plant so we can provide them instead. 

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## naoki (Apr 16, 2016)

Lance, I'm sure it would be expensive to develop the commercial products, and maybe there isn't enough market. Maybe someone should try crowd funding.

I don't think the exchange between orchid and fungi is completely known, but the main part is water, P, and N. For example, Goodyera repens got 100 times more P with fungi than without fungi. This is a reason why high P will discourage the association (plants don't want to waste carbon from photosynthesis to fungi if there is enough nutrients). The article I linked earlier has some review of this topic. We do not seem to completely understand how protection against disease is done. But it could be competition between good and "bad" microbes (similar to the idea of effective microbes). Trichoderma eats some pathogenic fungi to give the protection, but the fungi for orchid mycorrhizae are mostly sporophytic (or mycorrhizal fungi of other plants) and they aren't that aggressive, I think.


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## gego (Apr 16, 2016)

So the form of N they provide is amino acids?

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## naoki (Apr 17, 2016)

I don't know about it. I'm guessing that nobody knows about it yet. Even in more commonly studied Arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi (=endomycorrhizae), it isn't completely known according to this wikipedia. The wikipedia page says that one model in AMF is that arginine may be used as the transport from outside into the fungi in the root, then N gets released as ammonium.


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## gego (Apr 17, 2016)

Most likely ammonium but I wont be surprised if amino acids are involved. Going back to where these plants mostly grow, thier roots are. crawling along moist humus soil

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## Ray (Apr 18, 2016)

Amino acids are a significant secretion in many of the microorganisms involved.


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## gonewild (Apr 18, 2016)

Ray said:


> Amino acids are a significant secretion in many of the microorganisms involved.



Thank you Ray, I'm tired of saying it. Lets see if anyone listens to you. :clap:


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## naoki (Apr 18, 2016)

I'm not sure if we are talking about the same topic, Ray and Lance. I think gego is talking about the mechanism of how the plants and fungi communicate. Yes, they can release amino acids or more likely proteins which help nutrient uptake and degradation of organic matters through enzymatic reaction. And there are lots of evidence that plants, including orchids, can absorb amino acids. But that might not be the way how fungi and plants exchange goods at the peloton (the place where they are likely to communicate, here are photos). Similarly, the facts that some forms of N (or whatever mineral nutrients) is in the soil, and that roots can absorb them are just a part of the story. After the N moves from the surrounding region into the root cells, they have to be loaded to xylem, and they need to get distributed. Different forms of N has different efficiency at these other steps. It appears that in general NO3 is easier to transport in long distance (from root to leaves) than NH4.


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## Happypaphy7 (Apr 22, 2016)

I'm wondering if those fungi would stay alive in pots once artificially introduced?

I'm an indoor grower, so the humidity level is lower than greenhouse, so it might be even more difficult for them to stay alive.

As someone has already pointed out, I wonder how necessary it might be when plants are already being fertilized on a regular basis, other than the efficiency, which I assume will be much better with such relationship than via chemical fertilizers.


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## Ray (Apr 23, 2016)

Very good points, Naoki, but I am pretty sure that plants can- to some degree, get nitrogen from amino acids, as I figure they probably break down in the substrate, too, even if they aren't absorbed directly.


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## Ray (Apr 23, 2016)

I think the reasons for applying the probiotics go well beyond nutrient sourcing or transfer. In fact, assuming those do occur, they are secondary benefits at best. Mycorrhizae might be essential for nutrient and fuel transport into seed for germination in situ, but that's certainly not the case with a plant.

As to whether they stay active in our typical environments, I'd say "yes", but that the true question is "for how long". These are living critters that have finite life spans, specific needs for fuel for growth and reproduction (fortunately not THAT specific, as long as it's digestible carbon), and likely preferred conditions. The vats in which they were cultured probably come as close to ideal as anything, and once applied, it's less so.

However, the fact that, in many field evaluations (speaking of the Inocucor product, for which there is solid test data), a single treatment at germination or transplanting has been shown to have significant effects months later, suggests that there is an active population still contributing.

That said, going back to your question related to our growing environments, I suspect the longevity isn't so great, which is why periodic retreatments are in order.


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## keithrs (Apr 23, 2016)

Having experience working with mycorrhizal fungi and beneficial bacteria on a hobby level for several years, there are no commercially available products for orchid specifically. 

That said, I have found that terrestrial orchids are the only ones to benefit from commercially available myco. fungi simply with breaking down organic media for the plant to use. This holds especially true if you use organic fertilizers. I have not tested on terrestrials grown in inorganic media. 

As for epiphic orchids, I have only found that trichoderma fungi and some beneficial bacteria to be of any use. They help in the way of helping to keep pathogens at bay mostly. I have tried N. fixing bacteria with no real benefit. The use of commercially available myco. Has not helped.

I have noticed the greatest benefits from beneficial bacteria and trichoderma on seedlings. When I deflask seedlings, I mix up a dose of bio war folar with 5ppm N k-lite and seaweed extract. I brew for 4hrs with an air stone. The main purpose of the fertilizer allows the bacteria to propagate faster. I then soak the seedlings for 1min and allow to air dry before potting or mounting. I also soak the media and/or mount for 30 mins. I spray the same mix once a week intel I feel the seedlings are strong enough. 

Just as a procation for those who use bark, coco, tree fern and moss as medium. Fungi will not be your freind for long! These mediums will breakdown at an alarming rate. You will most likely get mushrooms and little white strains(roots) growing in your media.:evil:


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## Happypaphy7 (Apr 23, 2016)

Interesting info. I might try this.
but soaking for just 1 minute??

nevermind, stupid me. That is for the initial soaking out of the flask, right? still seem very short, but you said you soak for 30min. 

I soak my plants for a long time sometimes, but that's just me. lol


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## Ray (Apr 23, 2016)

keithrs said:


> Just as a procation for those who use bark, coco, tree fern and moss as medium. Fungi will not be your freind for long! These mediums will breakdown at an alarming rate. You will most likely get mushrooms and little white strains(roots) growing in your media.:evil:



I have been using the Inocucor product regularly for three years, and I have not seen any premature decomposition, nor the growth of of any ectomycorrhyzae.


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## Rick (Apr 23, 2016)

naoki said:


> I'm not sure if we are talking about the same topic, Ray and Lance. I think gego is talking about the mechanism of how the plants and fungi communicate. Yes, they can release amino acids or more likely proteins which help nutrient uptake and degradation of organic matters through enzymatic reaction. And there are lots of evidence that plants, including orchids, can absorb amino acids. But that might not be the way how fungi and plants exchange goods at the peloton (the place where they are likely to communicate, here are photos). Similarly, the facts that some forms of N (or whatever mineral nutrients) is in the soil, and that roots can absorb them are just a part of the story. After the N moves from the surrounding region into the root cells, they have to be loaded to xylem, and they need to get distributed. Different forms of N has different efficiency at these other steps. It appears that in general NO3 is easier to transport in long distance (from root to leaves) than NH4.



Was reading a paper on fungal endophytes in Vanda and Bulbophyllum (in India). The most common root fungus was Aspergillus niger. This fungus is coincidentally the same species used for commercial citric acid production. So coupled with the other research I've come across on organic acids, plant metabolism, and fungus-plant associations I suspect that the OA's (especially citric and malic acid) are among the most important chemicals that orchids derive from fungal associates.


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## gonewild (Apr 23, 2016)

Rick said:


> Was reading a paper on fungal endophytes in Vanda and Bulbophyllum (in India). The most common root fungus was Aspergillus niger. This fungus is coincidentally the same species used for commercial citric acid production. So coupled with the other research I've come across on organic acids, plant metabolism, and fungus-plant associations I suspect that the OA's (especially citric and malic acid) are among the most important chemicals that orchids derive from fungal associates.



You mentioned in another thread that you use 1ml/4L lemon juice. Do you know how much citric acid that is applying?


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## keithrs (Apr 23, 2016)

Ray said:


> I have been using the Inocucor product regularly for three years, and I have not seen any premature decomposition, nor the growth of of any ectomycorrhyzae.



Ray- That's not the experience I have had with about half of the 6 or so products I've used. I've pulled Den. Kingianums from plastic pots that where repotted with in 6 months with pine bark and had mycelium growing all over the bark. The bottom 1/2" was all decomposed bark and worm castings. I have had the same with CHC. (worms love CHC)

How do you like your product? Does it help in any way?


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## Rick (Apr 23, 2016)

gonewild said:


> You mentioned in another thread that you use 1ml/4L lemon juice. Do you know how much citric acid that is applying?



I'm using the grocery store lemon juice in the plastic fake lemon bottle. It supposed to have about 1gram of citric acid per fluid oz. 

So with all the conversions it may be around 8mg/L of citric acid. And probably around .8mg/L of malic acid.

There's a few other folks like Ed M using straight citric acid/malic acid with good result too, but he has more math issues than me trying to figure out what's coming out of his Dosatron.

Typically you can get away with almost as much as you want as long as the pH doesn't go below ~5.5


When I get a chance I post some update pics from that thread I started around July of last year.
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38369&highlight=lemon&page=6
The results are pretty nice.


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## gonewild (Apr 23, 2016)

Rick said:


> I'm using the grocery store lemon juice in the plastic fake lemon bottle. It supposed to have about 1gram of citric acid per fluid oz.
> 
> So with all the conversions it may be around 8mg/L of citric acid. And probably around .8mg/L of malic acid.
> 
> ...



Thanks. I have powdered citric acid I want to try but no idea where to start. I need to keep my pH up so don't want to use more than necessary.


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## Rick (Apr 23, 2016)

gonewild said:


> Thanks. I have powdered citric acid I want to try but no idea where to start. I need to keep my pH up so don't want to use more than necessary.



Lance.

Its looking like a combination of citric w/malic is better than just straight citric acid. Ratio of about 10:1 seems fine.


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## gonewild (Apr 23, 2016)

Rick said:


> Lance.
> 
> Its looking like a combination of citric w/malic is better than just straight citric acid. Ratio of about 10:1 seems fine.



And where the H am I supposed to find malic acid? 
What is it used for? (other than fertilizer)

I may have to squeeze lemons, problem is there are no lemons here....only Limes!


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## Rick (Apr 23, 2016)

gonewild said:


> And where the H am I supposed to find malic acid?
> What is it used for? (other than fertilizer)
> 
> I may have to squeeze lemons, problem is there are no lemons here....only Limes!



Limes are bad either but fresh squeeze will be a pain!!

From Ed M it didn't sound like malic was hard to find.

This has been working on ALL my orchids including a handful of hybrid phalaes.


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## Kawarthapine (Apr 23, 2016)

Guys. Malic acid is usually consumed by certain yeasts during wine fermentation, but I have noticed it did precipitate out of some of my white wines.

Perhaps commercial wineries or wine making stores would have some available. 

Certainly chemistry/chemical supply stores will have it available.


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## gonewild (Apr 23, 2016)

Kawarthapine said:


> Guys. Malic acid is usually consumed by certain yeasts during wine fermentation, but I have noticed it did precipitate out of some of my white wines.
> 
> Perhaps commercial wineries or wine making stores would have some available.
> 
> Certainly chemistry/chemical supply stores will have it available.



Thanks for the clue about malic acid. Unfortunately there are no such supply sources here where I am.


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## Ray (Apr 24, 2016)

keithrs said:


> Ray- That's not the experience I have had with about half of the 6 or so products I've used. I've pulled Den. Kingianums from plastic pots that where repotted with in 6 months with pine bark and had mycelium growing all over the bark. The bottom 1/2" was all decomposed bark and worm castings. I have had the same with CHC. (worms love CHC)
> 
> 
> 
> How do you like your product? Does it help in any way?




Keith, the Inocucor product is intended to prevent rots and stimulate plant growth, and I can vouch that it does.

I've been alternating it with KelpMax (each applied monthly), and aside from a complete lack of rots of any sort, I am seeing spectacular growth and. Blooming, but what is most impressive is how rapidly the plants multiply in number of growths. One-, to six or eight in a year is pretty common.


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## gonewild (Apr 24, 2016)

Ray said:


> Blooming, but what is most impressive is how rapidly the plants multiply in number of growths. One-, to six or eight in a year is pretty common.



That would be a result of the increased auxins. You may run into some ill effects at some point. The constant elevated auxin levels causing normally dormant buds to grow into stems may at some point over tax the plant to the point it just wears out.
Or maybe not.


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## Ray (Apr 24, 2016)

That's why I only add the KelpMax monthly.

Once you "spike" the process, it's takes about 7-10 days for the stimulation to reach a peak and drop back to normal levels again. The subsequent cytokinins spike follows a similar curve, but lags by about half the period, making the entire process anywhere from two-, to three weeks.

Monthly applications avoid overdoing it, and is much easier to remember.


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## keithrs (Apr 24, 2016)

I can't say that any of the products I have used directly promoted any growth. All have prevented rot and allowed a strong root system grow. Some better than others. Allowing strong roots is what I mainly contribute to heathy plants for me.


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## Ozpaph (Apr 24, 2016)

keithrs said:


> I can't say that any of the products I have used directly promoted any growth. All have prevented rot and allowed a strong root system grow. Some better than others. Allowing strong roots is what I mainly contribute to heathy plants for me.



If they prevent rot they would be worth their weight in gold to me...................just lost my second sanderianum. Growing great one day - brown mess a week later, despite every chemical in the world - even DB.
Prevention has got to be better.


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## myxodex (Apr 24, 2016)

Rick said:


> Limes are bad either but fresh squeeze will be a pain!!
> 
> From Ed M it didn't sound like malic was hard to find.
> 
> This has been working on ALL my orchids including a handful of hybrid phalaes.



According to the following paper limes have more malic acid and a little less citric acid than lemons, but citric acid is the most abundant in both.

lemons : 1.5 g/L malic, 73.9 g/L citric
limes : 5.2 g/L malic, 61.5 g/L citric

https://www.researchgate.net/public...Citrus_Juices_under_Reversed_Phase_Conditions

PS I look forward to update on organic acids


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## naoki (Apr 25, 2016)

Rick said:


> Was reading a paper on fungal endophytes in Vanda and Bulbophyllum (in India). The most common root fungus was Aspergillus niger. This fungus is coincidentally the same species used for commercial citric acid production. So coupled with the other research I've come across on organic acids, plant metabolism, and fungus-plant associations I suspect that the OA's (especially citric and malic acid) are among the most important chemicals that orchids derive from fungal associates.



I guess you are talking about this paper:
Sudheep, N. M. and K. R. Sridhar 2012. Non-mycorrhizal fungal endophytes in two orchids of Kaiga forest (Western Ghats), India. Journal of Forestry Research 23(3): 453−460
In case of A. niger, it seems that it uses sugar (glucose sucrose) and produce citric acid.

There is no doubt that there are lots of endophytes associated with orchids in addition to mycorrhizal fungi, but I don't think that people has convincingly demonstrated the benefit of endophytes on orchids. They may be just there without positive or negative effects. Or they may have minor negative effects. Here is an easy review, which I got this info from:
Bayman, P. and J. T. Otero 2006. Microbial endophytes of orchid roots. In B. Schultz, C. Boyle, T. Sieber (ends) Soil Biology Volume 9: Microbial Root Endophytes, Springer-Verlang, Berlin (I think the pdf is accessible to anyone). It mentions that when they killed all fungi (endophytes and mycorrhizal fungi), the plant suffered (e.g. higher death rate), but a targeted fungicide, which doesn't kill orchid mycorrhizal fungi, didn't have much effect (p.172). The authors of reviewers think that more data is need about the nature of relationship between endophytes and orchids before any conclusion can be drawn.

More specifically with regard to A. niger, it is an interesting point, but where is A. niger getting C from to make the citric acid? They can use sugar (glucose, sucrose etc) to produce citric acid, but plants can probably more efficiently produce citric acid (almost all organisms can synthesize citric acid by them selves) than passing sucrose to the the fungi, and getting citric acid back. If they are obtaining C source from the soil (or some other place), then it is a possibility to "help" plant. But plants are good at getting C without citric acid, right? Under cultivation, they can utilize additional organic acids if there are no other limiting factors. But in nature, plants generally offer C (mycorrhizae, N-fixing rhizobia, nectar for pollinator) in exchange of other limiting factors.

Just to make sure, I'm not disagreeing with usefulness of organic acid as supplements for plant cultivation. I looked into this a little bit, and I agree that there are fair amount of evidences indicating the benefit.


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## naoki (Apr 25, 2016)

gonewild said:


> That would be a result of the increased auxins. You may run into some ill effects at some point. The constant elevated auxin levels causing normally dormant buds to grow into stems may at some point over tax the plant to the point it just wears out.
> Or maybe not.



I think you meant cytokinins, not auxins.


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## naoki (Apr 25, 2016)

With effective microbes (EM-1, Inocucor), similar to Ray, I haven't seen much difference in media degradation, neither. I deflasked Vanda barnesii last year, and divided them into two groups: EM-1 (for every watering/fertigation) and control. For each treatment, I had about 5 small pots (replicates), each with 3-4 seedlings. They were randomized (in position). I continued the experiment about 6-8 months (and saw significant growth meanwhile). I didn't see much death in either group, and I didn't see any difference in the above ground size. I was going to weigh each plant, but it was pretty clear that there wasn't enough difference to be picked with the lower statistical power, so I didn't weigh them. I wouldn't make a conclusion from this negative results (other than we don't know the effects of effective microbes on orchids). Maybe it was too short (e.g., difficult to see the difference when seedlings are growing with some residual "power" from high nutrient flask). Sample size is too small. If there isn't pathogen threat, you can't see the effect etc. But I also didn't see difference in the media degradation (maybe it is too short compared to what Keith observed), neither. If there were, it wasn't visually obvious.


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## gonewild (Apr 25, 2016)

naoki said:


> I think you meant cytokinins, not auxins.



I dont know if I did or not :wink: I guess I should just have written "Hormones" so it would be all inclusive. Auxins, cytokinins, ect all are included in the scope of this.


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## keithrs (Apr 25, 2016)

naoki said:


> With effective microbes (EM-1, Inocucor), similar to Ray, I haven't seen much difference in media degradation, neither. I deflasked Vanda barnesii last year, and divided them into two groups: EM-1 (for every watering/fertigation) and control. For each treatment, I had about 5 small pots (replicates), each with 3-4 seedlings. They were randomized (in position). I continued the experiment about 6-8 months (and saw significant growth meanwhile). I didn't see much death in either group, and I didn't see any difference in the above ground size. I was going to weigh each plant, but it was pretty clear that there wasn't enough difference to be picked with the lower statistical power, so I didn't weigh them. I wouldn't make a conclusion from this negative results (other than we don't know the effects of effective microbes on orchids). Maybe it was too short (e.g., difficult to see the difference when seedlings are growing with some residual "power" from high nutrient flask). Sample size is too small. If there isn't pathogen threat, you can't see the effect etc. But I also didn't see difference in the media degradation (maybe it is too short compared to what Keith observed), neither. If there were, it wasn't visually obvious.



Is this product mycorrhiza based or bacteria based product?


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## naoki (Apr 25, 2016)

keithrs said:


> Is this product mycorrhiza based or bacteria based product?



EM-1 (and Inocucor) contain both bacteria and fungi (yeast), but not the mycorrhizal fungi. I re-read your post, and you were probably talking about the products with mycorrhizal fungi since you were talking about mushrooms. Is it right? Then it makes sense. I assumed that you meant EM-1/inocucor from Ray's reply. Sorry for misquoting.


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## keithrs (Apr 25, 2016)

naoki said:


> EM-1 (and Inocucor) contain both bacteria and fungi (yeast), but not the mycorrhizal fungi. I re-read your post, and you were probably talking about the products with mycorrhizal fungi since you were talking about mushrooms. Is it right? Then it makes sense. I assumed that you meant EM-1/inocucor from Ray's reply. Sorry for misquoting.



This is correct.... Mycorrhizal fungi is what "eats" the potting media. Bacteria does as well just at a much slower rate. I used a product a while back named Hygrozyme. I do believe this is a EM-1 product as well(I'm not to familiar with EM-1 products). It's marketed as a soil conditioner/cleaner. It's a enzyme product. I used it for 6-8 months. I found it to be garbage for orchids. This is almost the same product marketed as 'Orchid Champion'. Enzyme products differ from both bacteria and mycorrhizae products. Enzymes strains are chosen depending on what material you want them to catalyze on. They will only eat that one type of material. This may be why your not seeing media degration.


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## myxodex (Apr 26, 2016)

naoki said:


> I guess you are talking about this paper:
> Sudheep, N. M. and K. R. Sridhar 2012. Non-mycorrhizal fungal endophytes in two orchids of Kaiga forest (Western Ghats), India. Journal of Forestry Research 23(3): 453−460
> In case of A. niger, it seems that it uses sugar (glucose sucrose) and produce citric acid.
> 
> ...



I've noticed with both vandas and phals, it is not uncommon to see exuded nectar. Not sure of what induces this to happen, just that it seems not to be routine and possibly a stress response. Maybe to attract ants ? It seems that orchids get a number of favours from other organisms by trading sugar; pollination by insects, protection by ants, nutrient exchange from mycorrhiza or perhaps a bit of chemical protection from fungi which produce mycotoxins.

At the other extreme are those few orchids that are totally parasitic and don't even bother making chlorophyll anymore, and even intermediate relationships ... http://botanyboy.org/two-helleborine-orchids-from-japan-genus-cephalanthera/ ... which allow these to grow in poor light habitats. I often wonder with observations like these whether there could be an unseen continuum here, from those that play fast and loose with their sugar to those that are living on the edge in carbon terms. Those section barbata species like hookerae that seem to do well growing in low light conditions, ... are they pulling a bit of extra carbon from somewhere ?

As for fungi sold as beneficials, ... they aren't always as beneficial as claimed on the product label. I tried a Trichoderma product raved about on a hydroponics forum. The 3 plants I have treated with this are all struggling 4 years after application ... it seems impossible to get rid of, ... every time I repot these plants, the sparse mycelium spreads through the medium within weeks. I've tried soaking the plant in physan before repotting ... but no go. It seems that it has penetrated the root somehow and so is protected from treatment. It doesn't kill the plants, but seems to be inhibitory in some way, possibly parasitic and the plants are getting smaller by the year; shrinking back to seedling size. I do not recommend Trichoderma at least for paphs anyway. 

Finally something I meant to post earlier, but didn't and forgot. About uptake of N from arbuscular mycorrhiza.
There is a review on arbuscular mycorrhiza and nitrogen uptake, it is open access, but I had some problems cutting and pasting the link. The paper is: 
Role of Arbuscular Mychorrhizal Fungi in the Nitrogen Uptake of Plants: Current Knowledge and Research Gaps. Bucking, H., and Kafle, A., (2015) Agronomy 5: 587-612

The model that they illustrate with diagram to summarize what is known, is in line with what Naoki got from wiki.

Another study on AMF suggests that the fungus made a difference in what amino acids were taken up. They used nanolabels ... I'm not sure how to interpret their results and what effect the labelling method might have. Their results are interesting however, may indicate uptake of amino acids ?
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0047643


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## Ray (Apr 26, 2016)

1) Keith - all of these microorganisms consume a carbon source, and their metabolites are known to break down cellulose, but it is apparently a matter of degree.

2) Naoki - the reason you saw no difference between the treated and untreated plants was because you didn't use Inocucor! <insert grin here>


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## cnycharles (Apr 28, 2016)

A mode of action for some orchids is to 'allow' the fungus to infect the root, then special structures eat the fungus. Some may connect to the mychorrizae and who knows what after that. You can read my native orchid educational display text here http://www.cnyos.org/natives/educexhibita.pdf


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## naoki (Apr 28, 2016)

myxodex said:


> I often wonder with observations like these whether there could be an unseen continuum here, from those that play fast and loose with their sugar to those that are living on the edge in carbon terms. Those section barbata species like hookerae that seem to do well growing in low light conditions, ... are they pulling a bit of extra carbon from somewhere ?



I think this is a good point, and I agree that there is a continuum in terms of reliance on fungi; from mycotrophy (orchid eating fungi) to mutualism to parasitism (fungi exploiting orchids) for some species. I'm not sure if there is a data showing that normal green orchids are receiving carbon from fungi. It seems that with stable isotope analysis and fungicide, this can be easily demonstrated. Mycotrophic orchids do have quite different fungi (I only listed mycorrhizal fungi associated with green orchids in the previous post), but they do have mechanism to pass carbon.



myxodex said:


> The 3 plants I have treated with this are all struggling 4 years after application ... it seems impossible to get rid of, ... every time I repot these plants, the sparse mycelium spreads through the medium within weeks. I've tried soaking the plant in physan before repotting ... but no go. It seems that it has penetrated the root somehow and so is protected from treatment.



Interesting. Do you happen to know which Trichoderma product you used? From what I read, there is a big variation among strains (and species), and some are effective to specific pathogen. So, it is possible that some strains are more parasitic than mutualistic. I have used RootShield a couple times.



myxodex said:


> Another study on AMF suggests that the fungus made a difference in what amino acids were taken up. They used nanolabels ... I'm not sure how to interpret their results and what effect the labelling method might have. Their results are interesting however, may indicate uptake of amino acids ?
> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0047643



This one looks interesting. They seem to preferentially uptake rare amino acids. Thank you for the refs.



Ray said:


> 2) Naoki - the reason you saw no difference between the treated and untreated plants was because you didn't use Inocucor! <insert grin here>



That's a possibility! What I did isn't completely controlled, and I didn't quantify, so I would just say that it was inconclusive (and Inocucor is probably different). But when you look at the components of bacteria, I wonder what the secret is. In theory, the community can end up in a different equilibrium composition even if the environment is exactly same, depending on where you start from. So the initial ratio of components could influence it. When you look at the effective microbe literature, the benefit isn't really clear cut (compared to what the marketing dept. illustrates). I'm more toward believing that there is some benefits, but it depends on the other factors.



cnycharles said:


> A mode of action for some orchids is to 'allow' the fungus to infect the root, then special structures eat the fungus. Some may connect to the mychorrizae and who knows what after that. You can read my native orchid educational display text here http://www.cnyos.org/natives/educexhibita.pdf



Very nice write-up, Charles!


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## Kawarthapine (Apr 30, 2016)

I concur, very well written indeed.

Your explanation of the relationship between fungi and orchids was succinct and informative.

Kudos!


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## cnycharles (May 1, 2016)

Ty! It was written probably over 10 years ago and I don't know if there is any new info about this


Elmer Nj


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