# Water Quality Question



## MaryPientka (Jun 29, 2014)

OK, I know you guys have been hashing this question out for years, and I'm not really a beginner but I am beginning to contemplate a switch to RO. My tap water clocks in at 238 ppm TDS, the same water filtered through a Brita filter is 200 ppm TDS, and purchased distilled water is 000 ppm TDS. Is RO water worth the switch? Ray, I'm specifically thinking about your countertop model. All advice is welcome but remember, I'm an artist-not a scientist.


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## gonewild (Jun 29, 2014)

To really know if it's worth the switch you need to know what minerals are dissolved making the 238ppm.
238ppm is not to high unless some of the minerals are in excess.

If you suspect your water is not perfect and without knowing what minerals are present it is worth switching to RO.


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## Justin (Jun 29, 2014)

get a water quality report from your municipality to see what is making up the ppm. like lance said 238 is not too bad in general but it depends what the content is.

i used R/O for Paph species for many years and it was great for root growth; however eventually my plants experienced Calcium deficiency that led to rot problems. I now just use tapwater and don't have the rot problem anymore. I wish I still had the great roots I used to get with R/O though


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## MaryPientka (Jun 29, 2014)

This has been very helpful. Thanks for the advice. My city's water report web page will automatically download a pdf file, so I don't want to post the link here. I think I will send a water sample out for testing. My paphs have grown well, but I am a little concerned about the new addition of phrags to my collection. Again, many thanks.


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## Ozpaph (Jun 29, 2014)

I think my paphs are better switching to rain water, from tap water. Fertilizing takes care of the nutrients.


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## MaryPientka (Jun 29, 2014)

Rain water may be best for me, too.


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## gonewild (Jun 29, 2014)

Justin said:


> i used R/O for Paph species for many years and it was great for root growth; however eventually my plants experienced Calcium deficiency that led to rot problems. I now just use tapwater and don't have the rot problem anymore. I wish I still had the great roots I used to get with R/O though



Maybe you would be better off switching back to RO and adding more calcium. Maybe your tapwater has too much chloride?


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## Alec (Jun 30, 2014)

Probably the calcicolous Paphs will be pretty happy with your harder tap water, but I suspect that Phrags could be much less happy with it.

With RO it is very easy to make it harder if required, like gonewild says. There are also orchid feeds that are recommended with RO water such as the RainMix sold in Europe. That is the MSU formula. 

With RO the trick is to have a good & easy set up. Once you are running it's no problem. Just one important suggestion though - make sure you have a good arrangement for when your water container overflows, as sooner or later it surely will. So either have a safe routing for any overflow, or get an auto cut off device, or at the very least a water leak alarm.

Alec


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## Lmpgs (Jun 30, 2014)

Recently, I had a conversation with a reknown and trustful paph and phragm seller from the USA. This man told me that as long as the tap water has less than 200 ppm TDS, the plants are doing fine. Here in Athens, Greece out tap water is of high quality with average 120ppm TDS. This works fine for me, for the time being, as I can't affortd to pay for RO


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## Ray (Jun 30, 2014)

I am convinced that all orchids prefer low-EC solutions, and starting near zero means that it all comes from the fertilizer.

Alec - the system Mary was referring to is strictly manual - connect it to the tap, turn it on, and fill up your jugs. Turn it off, disconnect it and put it away.


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## NYEric (Jun 30, 2014)

I recommend an RO set-up; you can add minerals back into the water at a controlled rate.


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## MaryPientka (Jun 30, 2014)

My delenatii seem to thrive with the tap water. I've been giving purchased distilled water to the phrags and micranthums. Thank you, all. You've been a great help.

Ray, I'll place my order later today.

Again, thanks.


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## mormodes (Jun 30, 2014)

Justin said:


> get a water quality report from your municipality to see what is making up the ppm. like lance said 238 is not too bad in general but it depends what the content is.
> 
> i used R/O for Paph species for many years and it was great for root growth; however eventually my plants experienced Calcium deficiency that led to rot problems. I now just use tapwater and don't have the rot problem anymore. I wish I still had the great roots I used to get with R/O though



Sometimes I wonder if its the pH of tap water rather than the quality itself. Tap water here is 8.5. Its generally acknowledged that orchids grow better in more acidic water. I feed one a week and any other water the plants get comes straight from the tap. The fertilizer solution is the proper pH, whereas the other water isn't. There has been some evidence that there's a hold over effect of the acidic fertilizer lowering the pH of subsequent waterings, but I wonder.


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## gonewild (Jun 30, 2014)

mormodes said:


> Sometimes I wonder if its the pH of tap water rather than the quality itself. Tap water here is 8.5. Its generally acknowledged that orchids grow better in more acidic water. I feed one a week and any other water the plants get comes straight from the tap. The fertilizer solution is the proper pH, whereas the other water isn't. There has been some evidence that there's a hold over effect of the acidic fertilizer lowering the pH of subsequent waterings, but I wonder.



Fertilize every time you water and your pH problem is solved.


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## mormodes (Jul 1, 2014)

gonewild said:


> Fertilize every time you water and your pH problem is solved.



Yeah, there's that option.


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## Trithor (Jul 1, 2014)

One day I have got to try and adopt a scientific approach to my watering, feeding and growing. Every time I read one of these threads, I feel a bit foolish at my rather empirical approach to growing my plants. Perhaps I need to read more, think more and then try and put it all into practice, perhaps a good New Years resolution?


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## mormodes (Jul 1, 2014)

gonewild said:


> Fertilize every time you water and your pH problem is solved.



I have a dosatron sitting in my garage since January, purchased for exactly this purpose. I need to be less lazy.


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## Catt Mandu (Jul 2, 2014)

Mary, if you only have a few plants and you get a reasonable amount of rain, collecting rain water is a good option. You can use it as-is, alternate with tap water, or mix it with tap water (the use of some tap water is for the minerals).

If you have enough plants that rain water collection is not practical, the small RO system Ray mentioned is an option.


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## Alec (Jul 2, 2014)

Just for reference, this is a useful link that was posted on this forum some time ago.http://www.ladyslipper.com/calsub.htm

At least you can see the Paphs that are likely to be happy with, maybe prefer, harder water.


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## MaryPientka (Jul 2, 2014)

Thanks!


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## Ray (Jul 2, 2014)

Alec said:


> t least you can see the Paphs that are likely to be happy with, maybe prefer, harder water.


My plants tell me otherwise, but maybe "harder" is a relative term....


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## Stone (Jul 3, 2014)

MaryPientka said:


> OK, I know you guys have been hashing this question out for years, and I'm not really a beginner but I am beginning to contemplate a switch to RO. My tap water clocks in at 238 ppm TDS, the same water filtered through a Brita filter is 200 ppm TDS, and purchased distilled water is 000 ppm TDS. Is RO water worth the switch? Ray, I'm specifically thinking about your countertop model. All advice is welcome but remember, I'm an artist-not a scientist.



Mary, If you've grown the delenatii in your avitar with your tap water, I don't think you have too much to worry about.


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## Alec (Jul 3, 2014)

Ray said:


> My plants tell me otherwise, but maybe "harder" is a relative term....




Usually a higher tds is reflected in a higher ph too. 
You are so right, it's most important firstly to watch your plants.

Some orchids seem to have few issues with hard and alkaline water. I have given divisions of some of my own plants to a cousin who lives in a very hard & alkaline water area, so I can compare that directly with my own RO water + RainMix set up.
So for instance a Cymbidium Peter Pan Greensleeves and a Cattleya aurantiaca both seem perfectly happy with their very much harder water, and that's after about 10 years. 

With my own calcicolous Paphs I just add such as crushed limestone to their potting mix and they generally do fairly well (by my standards anyway!!!), but I don't have any comparison for the same plants growing without such additions. 
Which plants are you actually referring to Ray? Some supposedly 'calcicolous' sorts that don't like your harder water?

Alec


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## Ray (Jul 3, 2014)

Alec said:


> ...So for instance a Cymbidium Peter Pan Greensleeves and a Cattleya aurantiaca both _*seem perfectly happy*_ with their very much harder water, and that's after about 10 years.



Hi Alec.

As someone who has been growing orchids (a paph was my second plant acquired) for 40 years (that is NOT a claim of expertise!), and have moved my collection around a great deal, including a stint in Kentucky, where the water supply is often referred-to as "liquid cement" at over 350 ppm CaCO3, I have always considered my plants to be "happy" with their culture, as well (when I wasn't obviously screwing something up). What I'm attempting to express is that since going to pure water with only a tiny amount of fertilizer in it, they are performing much better - and that's a wide range of genera - making me feel that no orchid actually prefers high-EC solutions, but that some may tolerate them better.


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## Alec (Jul 3, 2014)

As someone who's been using RO water for about the last 18 years, I can only agree with you entirely Ray. That's why I use it too - you know exactly what you've got and can choose to adapt it in whatever way you require.
For anyone with a collection of orchids they really treasure, it has to be worth going that way.

But for someone with just a few, and if they are tolerant of harder water, it wouldn't be so easy to recommend RO.

By the way, I bought my first few orchids in 1980, and I still have them. For some years I lived in a very soft water area and my orchids were fine. Then I moved to a medium hard water area and lost my most prized orchid that I'd raised from a seedling - Odontoglossum harryanum 'Gold'. I could only blame it on the water and so I started using the RO, which I had already installed for different reasons.
Got to blame something haven't you???!!!

Nothing can compare to RO for manage-ability.


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## Ray (Jul 4, 2014)

Sir:

I believe we are in agreement.

Deciding when having an RO system is-, and isn't worth it is awfully subjective. 

Someone living in NYC would probably be foolish to ever do so, as their water is quite pure to start.

On the other hand, someone with very hard water, who may only have a few plants, may still find it worth doing. (That's one of the reasons I developed the counter-top system, at a customer's request.)

Then there's the "what are you growing" part - catts, phals, and vandaceous plants don't seem to care too much, but I imagine that Andean natives, that normally stay bathed in fog and mist, might be quite averse to higher dissolved solids.


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## MaryPientka (Jul 4, 2014)

Ha! Installed flawlessly! :clap: The countertop system is light-weight, fits into my kitchen sink, and so easy to install that even I could do it! I am making my first gallon of RO water as I type. To anyone contemplating a switch to RO: this unit is great!

Thank you, Ray, and everyone who has offered advice. My decision to switch to RO was based on the recent addition of several Phragmipediums to my collection. 

Again, many thanks.


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## MaryPientka (Jul 4, 2014)

Stone said:


> Mary, If you've grown the delenatii in your avitar with your tap water, I don't think you have too much to worry about.



The plant in my avatar is 10 years old , and has spent the last 5 years here in Saratoga Springs NY (yes, known for its mineral water). Previously it was in NYC. 

The water has a lot of calcium and iron. My ph is about 7.3.

My delentatii do great, malipos are pretty happy, too. But my micranthum could be doing better, and as I said, I was worried about the Phrags.


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## tomkalina (Jul 4, 2014)

I think you made the right decision, Mary. Your Phrags will thank you for it.....


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## MaryPientka (Jul 4, 2014)

Thanks, Tom.


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## ALToronto (Jul 5, 2014)

Well, for those still on the fence regarding an RO system - I went a step further and also installed an instant hot water tank, and changed the tap to one with hot and cold filtered water lines. So now I have hot tea on tap - great even in summer. The plumbing was a little more complex, but my husband and I managed without professional help. 

If we ever move to another house, it'll be the first thing I install.


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