# Phrag Help!



## Corallus21 (Dec 8, 2020)

Hi everyone. I am new to Phrag and have had this one less than a week. Plant is exhibiting dramatic leaf dieback. The plant is nicholle tower x wallisii

Culture
In Home
Light: Morning and Afternoon filtered light (same area I grow and bloom Paph parvisepalum with success)
Water: RO daily, sitting in half inch (refreshed every five days) 
Fertilizer: MSU at half strength every third watering 
Humidity- misted in morning and afternoon (45%-60%)
Air- Fan moving constantly
Temp- 68-73*
Medium- medium bark mix with live moss on top 




My Current Thoughts and Plan
Shipping caused stress and may have introduced fungal or bacterial rot. Remove affected leaf. Treat with physan. Allow to dry out some before continuing above culture. 

My questions
Remove leaves with spots as well? 
Remove from water dish? 
Humidity too low?
Other thoughts?

It is currently blooming and beautiful. Would hate to lose it. Please help. Thanks!


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## Fan Tan Fannie (Dec 8, 2020)

My Phragmipedium QF ula ula does the same thing with the brown rot on its leaves. I was nervous about losing the plant. I removed only the totally rotted leaves and back off on the sitting in water. I think if it is sitting in water, the plant absorbs way too much water that would rot out the leaves. My experience was to not let it sit in water. I see that you water it daily and sit it in water. The plant is telling you it is way too much water. You can try to reduce the watering to twice a week and not let it sit in water to see if that will improve it.


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## NYEric (Dec 8, 2020)

Looks like there are numerous things going on. Probably needs repotting, (check the media for breakdown and the roots), mechanical damage, thrip damage, etc.. Pull off the really damaged leaf and try to get some pure Dragon's Blood for the rest of the damaged leaves. if not put some cinnamon on them and keep them dry. Good luck.


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## Ray (Dec 8, 2020)

Physan won't do a thing to help that, because it is a _topical_ treatment only. It looks like an infection to me, possibly pseudomonas, so you need something systemic.

As it's hard to reliably discern fungal from bacterial infections by observation, I normally start with a copper-based treatment (unless the type of plant can't take it - slippers seem OK), as it is systemic and treats both.


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## SouthPark (Dec 10, 2020)

Totally agree with Ray and Eric.

Also - as these plants appear be grown indoors ------ just watch out for the condition of wet leaves and still-air conditions, and cool/damp conditions ----- which could allow certain kinds of unwanted fungal/bacterial activity to get started on the leaves, stem, roots etc. Gentle air-movement is often beneficial and can help to cut down on conditions like that.


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## kitfox (Dec 11, 2020)

That's a machine printed tag...it doesn't have repot dates on the back, does it? Sanitation. repot (inspect roots) and try the copper, I agree completely with Eric and Ray. I think elsewhere you said you are in the southeast US, see if Ray can ship you some if you can't find locally. I don't see a new growth, is there one? My 'Nicholle Tower' and wallisii (I don't have that cross) both initiate new growth as soon as they spike. If there is a new growth, how does it look?


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## Corallus21 (Dec 11, 2020)

kitfox said:


> That's a machine printed tag...it doesn't have repot dates on the back, does it? Sanitation. repot (inspect roots) and try the copper, I agree completely with Eric and Ray. I think elsewhere you said you are in the southeast US, see if Ray can ship you some if you can't find locally. I don't see a new growth, is there one? My 'Nicholle Tower' and wallisii (I don't have that cross) both initiate new growth as soon as they spike. If there is a new growth, how does it look?



This is a two growth plant and nearly all of the rot is on only one growth. I do not see any signs of a new growth started. I tapped the plant out and the roots look good but the mix has definitely broken down. I will need to repot. Would you recommend waiting for the plant to finish blooming to avoid additional stress or repot?


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## Corallus21 (Dec 11, 2020)

Ok everyone. Time for an update and additional questions.

First, thank you to everyone that has responded. I really appreciate the assistance. I certainly want to save this plant but I am also learning a lot from this experience as it is my first with rot. Hopefully, it will make me a better grower win or lose.

I removed the most troubled leaf. I cleaned the crown of both growths with peroxide. There was a little bubbling but I don't believe rot has gotten in the crowns. I sprayed the entire plant down with Physan 20. I distanced the plant from other plants (in its own water tray). I tapped the plant out and found very healthy roots but a degraded mix and will need to repot. I have reduced watering to every three days but decided to leave in about a half inch of water. I am no longer misting that plant as I do my others. I also turned the plant in a way where the rot areas will face the window. The rot spots had been facing away. I turned the fan up for a few days but now have it on a medium setting which is still enough to gently move leaves. I took pictures of existing spots so that I can monitor any progression. Dragon's blood is on the way (took a while to find the pure sap that has not been thinned or had additives but I found it). I have the Southern Agg Copper fungicide and will treat tonight.

Questions:
1. I have read of highly varied experiences with the use of copper fungicide, especially on thinner textured orchid leaves. Should I try Dragon's Blood first? Any words of advice here? How many times should I treat and how frequent? Dilution rate?
2. Regarding repotting. Would you suggest waiting until blooming is complete or do now? Should I remove inflorescence first?

Thanks again!


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## kitfox (Dec 11, 2020)

My experience has been that Phrags can care less when they are repotted. When its needed, its time. I have done it on sequential bloomers early in spike, and still get multiple blooms afterwards. I have learned this by necessity with the vine-like besseae, for example. Kind of like the pruning adage..."It's time to prune when the shears are sharp"! Just be gentle with the living roots, and brutal with the dead/dying ones.


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## kitfox (Dec 11, 2020)

Oops, double post...sorry. Hopefully others will chime in on copper, I have only used once and I think it helped on a fischeri a few years back.


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## Ray (Dec 11, 2020)

Copper shouldn’t be a problem. The “thin leaves” thing usually is referring to stuff like coelogynes.


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## TropiCool (Dec 12, 2020)

@Corallus21:

My two cents (from much experience. _I used to grow commercially; 13K plants in my range, mostly slippers, many phrags_):

I worry when you talk of 'turning the rot to face the window'. Every millimetre of rot has to be cut away, beyond the rotted tissue and into the healthy parts. A clean(ed) blade for each cut. (Strong Physan solution for dipping the cutter, maybe flame it). If that means bringing the plant down to a stump, so be it, so long as what you have left if rot free. There are normally dormant or semi-dormant buds near the base of the fan, and those will be your new growths.

Forget about waiting for the bloom to finish; the plant will be dead before then. Cut the flower stalk off now, and enjoy it in a vase.


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## southernbelle (Dec 12, 2020)

Wow, strong advice, but valid!! I’ve learned with growing grafted roses (on which canker, and all types of rots and fungus thrive) to be unmerciful in my pruning. Bottom line is, remove the disease or the plant dies, as it will spread to the crown (in grafted roses, the bud union). Take care of what should not be there and is weakening the plant, and it is amazing the resources the plant has to respond. Leave any disease and guess what? The news is not good. Oh, and cut way into the healthy parts. Some disease is like cancer. You can cut out the obvious, but it has gone into plant tissues you do not see. Be unmerciful with your pruning. It can save a plant.


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## southernbelle (Dec 12, 2020)

TropiCool, with all of your experience why have we (or at least I) not heard from you before? Thanks for your input.


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## kitfox (Dec 12, 2020)

I’m not sure the pictures look like rot to me, not like any I‘ve had. Almost look like cold or heat damage to me. I didn’t recognize it was two growth plant, and it looks like the blooming growth is clean...true?


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## TropiCool (Dec 14, 2020)

kitfox said:


> I’m not sure the pictures look like rot to me, not like any I‘ve had. Almost look like cold or heat damage to me.


Looks to me like heat damage (and yes, could be cold damage) When I've seen it on my slippers, it was from sunburn. 

I was growing in a rented greenhouse within a much larger commercial operation. We had a record blizzard in Boston. Lost power for days. 

But it wasn't the cold that damaged the plants (within around a half-acre under glass, there was enough thermal mass to stay above freezing). It was the fact the ventilation system stopped. No fans, and window opening was motorized, plus the roads were closed and the National Guard stepped in and prevented silly people from getting in the way of the road crews digging us out. With all that snow lying around the reflected sunlight was intense for January. And I couldn't access my space for another 2 days. It was heartbreaking.

Within a few days of being scorched, the bacterial assault began, leaving plants oozing brown liquid,and spreading to previously undamaged leaves. The plants were saved by the drastic surgery I mentioned in my previous post. Some were reduced to bits of rhizome and dormant buds. Potted down and into live sphagnum moss, most of those did bounce back.


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## TropiCool (Dec 14, 2020)

southernbelle said:


> TropiCool, with all of your experience why have we (or at least I) not heard from you before? Thanks for your input.


I have been on here for close to 10 years now, but I mostly lurk


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## Corallus21 (Dec 14, 2020)

Yes. I think much of the damage was mechanical (shipping box looked like Fedex threw it off of a building, in fact the bloom stake was broken in half) and there were some sunburn spots. It looks like this damage and stress introduced rot however that would move up the leaf edges and then in.

I have only had this plant for a week and a half now. I received from a nursery in Florida that has not yet responded to my email requesting advice. Upon first opening the box I was pleased with what I thought was more plant then I had paid for. I paid for a one growth, non-blooming plant but received a two growth plant in bloom. Needless to say, the damage that I have found has brought the situation to less of a bargain.

I have followed much of your advice and am happy with the current situation. I cut the second, badly damaged growth all the way back to the base, clear of all rot. I removed the one, possibly fungal leaf from the larger blooming growth. I then treated with Southern Agg Copper Fungicide and applied Dragonsblood topically in and around leaf damages. All of this cutting was challenging but the plant is looking pretty good. I will be repotting tomorrow. I will post some pics and updates soon. I appreciate the advice.


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## NYEric (Dec 14, 2020)

Good luck.


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