# helenae & hermannii



## goldenrose (Apr 6, 2009)

Found someone parting with & couldn't resist a helenae & hermannii! Sounds like they should be rather easy to grow, is anyone having troubles? What's your potting media?
They're in a fine bark mix with limestone chips, the hermannii looks like it could use a fresh mix.


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## NYEric (Apr 6, 2009)

Good acquisitions. helenae CITES II !!! :ninja:


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## SlipperKing (Apr 6, 2009)

include the hermannii as well Eric! I wonder how he got that one into the country?


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## Jorch (Apr 6, 2009)

Good pick!! heleanae grows equally well for me in bark mix or straight dyna-rok. hermannii, in my limited experience (with 1 plant), is more susceptable to rot than helenae, so be more careful with watering


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## likespaphs (Apr 6, 2009)

i dream of owning these two....

good luck


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## Leo Schordje (Apr 6, 2009)

NYEric said:


> Good acquisitions. helenae CITES II !!! :ninja:


Ssshh! Pointing it out only encourages them. They are sleeping, be quiet. oke:


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## Elena (Apr 6, 2009)

NYEric said:


> Good acquisitions. helenae CITES II !!! :ninja:



Cites I, surely? oke:

Anyway, nice buys! My helenae is in bark & perlite mix with generous top dressing of oyster shell and some bonemeal. It didn't flower but I think I might have kept my Insigne types too dry, they seem to be growing better now I keep them a touch wetter.


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## goldenrose (Apr 6, 2009)

Leo Schordje said:


> Ssshh! Pointing it out only encourages them. They are sleeping, be quiet. oke:


very quietly .... whispering ..... How are you growing yours?


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## baodai (Apr 6, 2009)

Do not over water them, lava rock, characol, perlite and fine bark (mix), all small size ... 
BD


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## Leo Schordje (Apr 6, 2009)

I use a mix of bark & charcol, and a little perlite or sponge rock if it is available. Particle size 1/8 to 1/4 inch. I top dress with about 1/2 teaspoon of oystershell for a 2 1/2 x 4 inch tall pot. I keep mine fairly moist, watering every 3 to 5 days, but I also use screens when making my mix to make sure my media is open. I sift the mix to get rid of the fines and dust. This preserves the air voids. I fertilize continuously (every watering) with 1/2 teaspoon per gallon MSU fertilizer. Light is bright shade, about 800 foot candles, under 4 tubes, 40 watt cool white, the leaves are withing 5 inches of the tubes. It is 2 cheap shop light fixtures, side by side hanging over the shelf. Lights on 16 hours per day. This seems to work for all my micranthums and others from that part of the world.


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## kentuckiense (Apr 6, 2009)

Leo Schordje said:


> I use a mix of bark & charcol, and a little perlite or sponge rock if it is available. Particle size 1/8 to 1/4 inch. I top dress with about 1/2 teaspoon of oystershell for a 2 1/2 x 4 inch tall pot. I keep mine fairly moist, watering every 3 to 5 days, but I also use screens when making my mix to make sure my media is open. I sift the mix to get rid of the fines and dust. This preserves the air voids. I fertilize continuously (every watering) with 1/2 teaspoon per gallon MSU fertilizer. Light is bright shade, about 800 foot candles, under 4 tubes, 40 watt cool white, the leaves are withing 5 inches of the tubes. It is 2 cheap shop light fixtures, side by side hanging over the shelf. Lights on 16 hours per day. This seems to work for all my micranthums and others from that part of the world.



This is pretty much exactly how I grow mine. My mix has a touch of granite chips in it, though.


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## paphreek (Apr 6, 2009)

Nice acquisitions, Rose. How many growths are they?


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## goldenrose (Apr 6, 2009)

Both 2 growths.

Thanks for the feedback everyone!


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## emydura (Apr 6, 2009)

I have helenae. One adult plant and lots of small seedlings. I grow them in CHC's. I think it is a pretty straight forward species to grow and pretty adaptable. Flowering it maybe more of a challenge. I haven't flowered my adult plant yet - only has 2 growths. Hopefully not long. 

I know nothing about hermanii.

David


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## Hien (Apr 7, 2009)

From what I heard, herrmannii is one tough cookie to kill.
media can even be as far out as.
-straight clay pebble ( I guess the person who told me must try to describe something likes hydroton)
-straight Diatomite.
From the conversation, I gather that this species is much tougher than the similar size helenae, tranlienianum, barbigerum etc..etc..


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## JeanLux (Apr 7, 2009)

Hien said:


> From what I heard, herrmannii is one tough cookie to kill.
> media can even be as far out as.
> -straight clay pebble ( I guess the person who told me must try to describe something likes hydroton)
> -straight Diatomite.
> From the conversation, I gather that this species is much tougher than the similar size helenae, tranlienianum, barbigerum etc..etc..



must be so!!! I am able to grow and flower it! Jean


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## Leo Schordje (Apr 7, 2009)

Averynov states that Paph hermanii is a natural hybrid, should be written _x hermanii_, the putative parents are (esquirolei x helenae). 

But Olaf Gruss disagrees, he feels it is a good species in its own right. He states that it does not bloom at the same season as either putative parent. He also feels its distribution includes areas where neither of the putative parents can be found. He also says it breeds true from seed with out the variability one would expect from a hybrid. All are good arguments for it being a good species in its own right. 

I suspect you would grow it identically to Paph helenae. It is a larger plant than helenae and barbigerum. About the same size or a little smaller than Paph henryanum. A really nice compact Paph, most like a henryanum without spots.


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## emydura (Apr 7, 2009)

Leo Schordje said:


> Averynov states that Paph hermanii is a natural hybrid, should be written _x hermanii_, the putative parents are (esquirolei x helenae).
> 
> But Olaf Gruss disagrees, he feels it is a good species in its own right. He states that it does not bloom at the same season as either putative parent. He also feels its distribution includes areas where neither of the putative parents can be found. He also says it breeds true from seed with out the variability one would expect from a hybrid. All are good arguments for it being a good species in its own right.
> 
> I suspect you would grow it identically to Paph helenae. It is a larger plant than helenae and barbigerum. About the same size or a little smaller than Paph henryanum. A really nice compact Paph, most like a henryanum without spots.



How does Averynov get esquirolei x helenae? I see so much henryanum in it. Cribb thinks it is a hybrid between hirsutissimum x henryanum which seems the logical parents if you think it is a hybrid. Braems thinks it is a hybrid as well.

Koopowitz thinks it is a species that has emerged from a hybrid. Interesting concept. I guess it is a population of hybrids that have become isolated over time and have continued to evolve. They would unlikely be 50% one parent and 50% another. In this case may be more henryanum. This would explain why these comparisons of man-made hybrids and natural hybrids never match up. You are comparing apples and oranges.

David


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## Leo Schordje (Apr 8, 2009)

emydura said:


> How does Averynov get esquirolei x helenae? I see so much henryanum in it. Cribb thinks it is a hybrid between hirsutissimum x henryanum which seems the logical parents if you think it is a hybrid.


So far nobody has shown me the traits that suggest henryanum?, there are NO spots anywhere in the hermanii I have seen. I have often disagreed with Cribb over a number of matters involving taxonomy, and generally after a time, the other taxonomists prevail. Early pronouncements on a new species should be taken with a grain of salt, 20 years from now the matter will likely be viewed as settled. If someone could point out the henryanum traits in hermanii I would accept it, but so far nobody has. I do not agree with Avereynov either, but at least both putative parents he proposes are free of bold spots, like hermanii. 



emydura said:


> Koopowitz thinks it is a species that has emerged from a hybrid. ... is a population of hybrids that have become isolated over time and have continued to evolve. They would unlikely be 50% one parent and 50% another. In this case may be more henryanum. This would explain why these comparisons of man-made hybrids and natural hybrids never match up. You are comparing apples and oranges.
> David


I think Koopowitz is correct. I think Paph hermanii is a species, and if its origin is hybrid, it has been a stable interbreeding entity of many generations, or many tens of thousands of years. The modest sampling of images and live plants I have seen do not suggest any recent gene introgression from recent outcrossing to either putative parent or any other species for that matter. In this case the term species is more appropriate than the term natural hybrid. 

There are natural hybrids occurring in nature that breeding experiments have shown are clearly F1 or F2 from the parental cross. This is the case where the term natural hybrid fits nicely. 

There are species that clearly include hybrid swarms in the background, with a range of traits that at one end may be most like one parent, on the other end are most like the other parent. When a species description includes the words: "highly variable ..." this is the likely case. We do not have good termonoligy for this. Natural Hybrid, Hybrid Swarm, Super Species. Species Complex are all terms used here. 

Everything I have seen of Paph hermanii suggests it is relatively uniform in appearance. You would never confuse one for a smallish hirsustissimum, nor a henryanum nor a helenae nor for a barbigerum. They seem quite unique unto themselves. This argues for using the term "species". If a natural hybrid becomes isolated, and continues to breed and evolve, and genetically in its population becomes fairly uniform, I believe these criteria meet the meaning of species. Regardless of origin. How many years and generations are enough to call something a species? 1000, 10,000, 1,000,000, 10,000,000? 

I'm going to stick to calling hermanii a good species. It certainly is a cute compact Paph. It will make lovely hybrids. 
I think these little controversies make the hobby fun.:evil:


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## goldenrose (Apr 8, 2009)

They are fun! Isn't this interesting where this thread has gone! :clap:


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## ORG (Apr 8, 2009)

Dear Leo,
I can really agree with you. *Paph. hermannii is a distinct species.*
Here 2 different clones







When you see the hybrid between hirsutissimum and henryanum, Paph. Frank Zettle, then you cannot have the idea that this could be herrmannii. 

Best greetings

Olaf


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## bench72 (Apr 9, 2009)

i really can't see how u get a hermannii 





from a hirsutissimum...


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## emydura (Apr 9, 2009)

bench72 said:


> i really can't see how u get a hermannii
> [/IMG]
> 
> from a hirsutissimum...



Actually Tim, I can see a lot of similarities. Ruffled petals, brown dorsal, shape of the pouch.

David


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## ORG (Apr 9, 2009)

Dear Tim,
here a picture of 
*Paphiopedilum Frank Zettle* - _henryanum _X _hirsutissimum_






I have seen also another clone and both are so different from _Paph. herrmannii._

Best greetings

Olaf


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## emydura (Apr 9, 2009)

Leo Schordje said:


> So far nobody has shown me the traits that suggest henryanum?, there are NO spots anywhere in the hermanii I have seen.



Thanks Leo. Fascinating input as always. I agree with you that it appears to be a species irrespective of whether it has originated from a hybrid. 

In relation to henryanum traits. To my untrained eye and based purely on photos, the pouch seems a lot like henryanum both in terms of colour and shape. Also brown petals and the outer green dorsal are very similar in colour. Spots do appear to be a pretty dominant trait in henryanum hybrids but then my recent helenae x henryanum cross was basically spotless (apart from a few tiny spots at the bottom of the dorsal).

I agree hermanii is pretty cute. I'll have to try and pick one up. Taiwan nurseries sell flasks of this species very cheaply. Next order hopefully.

David


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## Leo Schordje (Apr 9, 2009)

Thanks Olaf very much for the images. They are very helpful. 

Thanks David, you know after I posted saying I did not see ANY henryanum I thought to myself - that is a bit strong of a statement, I should have softened it a little. But really, there are traits shared in common with all of the Paphiopedilum section of the Paphs. Compare any 2 species from this section and you will be able to find several traits that are quite similar. For example the staminode of charlesworthii, villosum, hermanii & helenae all have that dimple in the center. Ruffled petal edges are shared between tranlinianum, spicerianum & insigne. Pink pouches - hermanii & henryanum. One could go on. So clearly it is correct to put hermanii in the Paphiopedilum section. And I think it should stand as a species. 
Great discussion. Thanks for getting this started Rose.


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## bench72 (Apr 9, 2009)

i see far more similarities from tranlienianum e.g. the shape of the staminoidal shield, top of the dorsal, colours... where does tranlienianum come from? could that be a parent that gives the wavy petals?


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## ORG (Apr 9, 2009)

tranlienianum comes also from Vietnam. but I think it is so different from herrmannii, especially in the lip. When you would see both side by side then you would never have this idea

Best greetings

Olaf


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## bench72 (Apr 9, 2009)

lucky for me i subscribe to hermannii being a species

still it's interesting to postulate hybrid origins even if only to stir the pot :evil:


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## shakkai (Apr 10, 2009)

This is a great discussion - thanks, Rose, for starting this off. I got a hermanii back in February and I'm really looking forward to seeing its flowers.


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## likespaphs (Apr 10, 2009)

dang... i still really want a hermanii


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## ORG (Apr 10, 2009)

Here you can find one

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380116393374&ssPageName=ADME:B:SSE:1123

But it is in Germany

Olaf


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## likespaphs (Apr 10, 2009)

and it's fairly inexpensive.
bummer that i can't get it into the country legally....


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