# Watering



## Stone (Nov 15, 2011)

What aproach do you take with regards to watering?
I'm still not 100% sure but I think I've noticed the following phenomenon:
I have been watering my seedlings in the normal way, that is: soaking the pots and waiting for them to dry a little then repeating etc., and they plod along as normal, putting out a new leaf here or a new root there.
But after a month or so of this sequence, if I really flood them for 2-3 days in a row, they seem to be greatly stimulated into faster more vigourous growth
for a while with more root initials breaking at their bases. 
I wonder if it's a natural adaptation to coincide with monsoonal downpoors?
I try to time this ''flooding'' with a warm weather forecast. I think there might be something in it?
Anyone else observed this? or am I watering incorrectly?


----------



## cnycharles (Nov 15, 2011)

interesting observation. quick answer is I don't know, would depend on what you were watering and all the rest of your environmental conditions, and the state of your bark/media. if you have fresh bark, often it will dry out more quickly and maybe keep your humidity higher. would be nice to know if it was due to monsoonal influence


----------



## Stone (Nov 15, 2011)

I'm not a huge fan of bark but I do use it as part of a seedling mix.
The bark we get here is Pinus radiata. It is always comosted with lime, urea 
and iron suphate for a few weeks and ends up black and slightly water
absorbant. I always wash it before using it to get rid ofthe dust but it still holds a fair amount of moisture. I like the pots to dry fairly quickly (2-4 days)
so I use a course grade 1/4'' mixed with porous volcanic rock and coco husk of same size.
I still have the eternal problem of the top drying too quickly and the bottom too slowly so I've been adding a finer material on top but that kind of defeats the purpose. That's why I think mesh pots and baskets are a possible solution-- fine material on top for the base of the plant and no need to worry too much about over-watering.


----------



## Ray (Nov 16, 2011)

I'll bet that if you flushed heavily at every watering, you'd see overall better growth.

Waste products accumulate in the medium, resulting in - to a small degree, at first - the plant sitting in its own cesspool. if you flush heavily and frequently, the root environment stays cleaner and healthier.

I use Orchiata bark (when I use bark) - it's the treated _Pinus radiata_ coming out of New Zealand - and by using a coarser grade, coupled with frequent heavy watering, I see great growth in it.


----------



## keithrs (Nov 16, 2011)

I just switch some denenatii from pine seedling bark into orchiata classic with small amount of moss and green sand..... excellent results....Or should I say excellent response. Mist very morning and evening, water very other day or two. 

When I water, I use a misting nozzle for three reasons... 
1. Not to disturb the seedings 
2. Allow the bark mix and roots to absorb water
3. Not to waste too much water

I just about killed them all, Between staying to moist and physan. I did lose about half because of the physan dried out the roots and pitted the leaves. 

I used dried green moss to hold the sand in the pots. The sand was used for the root hair to attach to and get some trace minerals. The bark is basically there for humidity at this point. I fertilize every other watering.

Live to learn... right!


----------



## gonewild (Nov 16, 2011)

What you are seeing is not a seasonal responce. If you install a automatic misting system and keep the surface of the media moist at all times you will see that the plants grow faster more have vigourous growth than letting them dry out between waterings.


----------



## Stone (Nov 16, 2011)

Ray said:


> I'll bet that if you flushed heavily at every watering, you'd see overall better growth.
> 
> Waste products accumulate in the medium, resulting in - to a small degree, at first - the plant sitting in its own cesspool. if you flush heavily and frequently, the root environment stays cleaner and healthier.
> 
> I use Orchiata bark (when I use bark) - it's the treated _Pinus radiata_ coming out of New Zealand - and by using a coarser grade, coupled with frequent heavy watering, I see great growth in it.



I flush heavily at every watering and before feeding


----------



## Stone (Nov 16, 2011)

gonewild said:


> What you are seeing is not a seasonal responce. If you install a automatic misting system and keep the surface of the media moist at all times you will see that the plants grow faster more have vigourous growth than letting them dry out between waterings.



If I did that my plants would rot real quick!


----------



## keithrs (Nov 16, 2011)

Stone said:


> If I did that my plants would rot real quick!



You need move air movement.


----------



## Stone (Nov 16, 2011)

keithrs said:


> You need move air movement.



I have 4 fans blowing 24/7 plus an industrial evap.cooler on a thermostat.
I don't need more air movement.
I must say I disagree with Lance about the need for a misting system. I believe that allowing them to dry out '' a little'' between waterings is only following a natural cycle that ALL tropical plants have evolved with. Epyphites all the more so but even ground dwellers. I have observed this first hand in Nth. Queensland rainforest where everything including mosses on the ground are can be crispy-dry in a matter of days after rain and during the wet season, yet the area still supports many orchids.
Some of our club members noticed a similar thing on a visit to the sanderianum habitat in Borneo.
I do have a misting bed which I use for propagation and it can help with getting things moving but long-term use would surely see things go down hill.
I still believe that letting them dry out over an extended period followed by a short period of ''soaking to the bone'', stimulates them more than usual


----------



## gonewild (Nov 16, 2011)

Stone said:


> If I did that my plants would rot real quick!



That's only because you have conditioned them to growing in a drier environment. They should not rot "real quick" from being wet if the environment around them is correct.


----------



## Stone (Nov 16, 2011)

gonewild said:


> That's only because you have conditioned them to growing in a drier environment. They should not rot "real quick" from being wet if the environment around them is correct.



What do you consider to be a ''correct'' environment?


----------



## gonewild (Nov 16, 2011)

Stone said:


> I have 4 fans blowing 24/7 plus an industrial evap.cooler on a thermostat.
> I don't need more air movement.
> I must say I disagree with Lance about the need for a misting system.



I did not say you need a mist system. I said if you had a mist system you would see the constant growth that you now notice as spurts of growth after your water them extra. I'm not disagreeing with you about your observations.



> I believe that allowing them to dry out '' a little'' between waterings is only following a natural cycle that ALL tropical plants have evolved with.



Not ALL tropical plants plants have evolved with the same wet/dry cycles. Most often the dry cycles run for a lot longer than you would dare allow a potted plant to remain dry. You can also consider that the natural conditions are not perfect just because a species has evolved to survive in the conditions. Most people want their plants in their collections to look a lot better than wild plants. Under the natural conditions of the tropics very few plants survive for very long so growers should look for ways to improve on Nature and not simply try to mimic it.



> Epyphites all the more so but even ground dwellers. I have observed this first hand in Nth. Queensland rainforest where everything including mosses on the ground are can be crispy-dry in a matter of days after rain and during the wet season, yet the area still supports many orchids.
> Some of our club members noticed a similar thing on a visit to the sanderianum habitat in Borneo.



Correct, the habitats dry out. But does that mean that drying out is the best thing for the plants to grow better? Or is that a method that Nature uses to inhibit the growth of plants to keep them under control so they don't grow too much?



> I do have a misting bed which I use for propagation and it can help with getting things moving but long-term use would surely see things go down hill.



Have you tried long term growing under a mist to see the effect first hand?



> I still believe that letting them dry out over an extended period followed by a short period of ''soaking to the bone'', stimulates them more than usual



Maybe this is because the plant finally has a chance to grow after surviving the drought?


----------



## Stone (Nov 16, 2011)

gonewild said:


> I did not say you need a mist system. I said if you had a mist system you would see the constant growth that you now notice as spurts of growth after your water them extra. I'm not disagreeing with you about your observations.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When I say 'dry out'' I mean holding them slightly moist then flooding, not desication. I don't subject them to drought.
Plants evolve to thrive not just survive in a given environment. After all they have had millions of years to get it right. 
Through human eyes they may appear ratty and beaten up but they are usually perfectly healthy. Probably more so than our often bloated over-fed captives. Your statement that very few plants in the tropics live very long is-
I believe- just not correct. Orchids growing on 300 year old trees just keep growing unless they get eaten or fall off. There are early records of Vandas estimated to be upwards of 100 years old and I've seen dendrobiums that would have to be at least 50.
Nature dosen't have a ''method'' to keep growth under control, It just is what it is. You can't seperate it's components. But you've given me food for thought and I might experiment with keeping some wetter to see what happens. Thanks for your input


----------



## keithrs (Nov 16, 2011)

My seedling stay moist at the roots..... I switched two a courser grade bark to get more air movement around the roots. I have since had new leaves and roots start. Dead roots from physan use I believe is what was causing the rot problems.... Water its shelf will not cause rot..... it the bacteria and viruses that breed in moist conditions that don't have enough air movement that cause rot on roots and leaves. I only have one 8" oscillating fan on low at all times for my bakers rack and one computer fan for each of my domes that have my new seedlings and have have zero problem in the last two months.... I really contribute all my problems to physan. I fact I have only lost 4 plants that didn't get a Physan bath. More than half die with the bath.


----------



## keithrs (Nov 16, 2011)

May be you can try repotting a few in your mix without the finer stuff on top and try the misting ways..... Never hurts to try a new way!


----------



## Stone (Nov 16, 2011)

All I'm saying is that for many other orchids that I grow, I can get a quicker initiaion of new roots when I withold water for a time and I'm seeing the same thing with paphs. Although I still have a lot to learn about them.


----------



## Rick (Nov 16, 2011)

Stone said:


> All I'm saying is that for many other orchids that I grow, I can get a quicker initiaion of new roots when I withold water for a time and I'm seeing the same thing with paphs. Although I still have a lot to learn about them.


C

Could just be coincidence in timing of water rather than induced root production by watering.

I've noticed that many of my paphs bloom, develop roots, flower, add new growths at different but predictable times of years.

Also it may be hard to generalize about all paphs given ~80 species in 6 or so significant subgenera, utilizing fairly distinct habitat types from limestone cliffs to deep forest duff.

You seem to be interested in Paph habitat info for insight for growing. You should get Averyanov's book on Slipper orchids of Vietnam, and Lance Birks Paphiopedilum Growers Manual. Both have climate and habitat info. Averyanov's book is particularly detailed in this respect.


----------



## Rick (Nov 16, 2011)

Actually I'm surprised that Ray didn't bring up the results of SH growers that seem to have no problem growing roots with some of them constantly submerged in water.

I use SH for a lot of my phrags. Some have been in the same matrix (hydroton balls) for almost 10 years now. Sometime I let the pans dry out, but often there is water in the pot for weeks on end (with flushing). Roots coming out of the bottom of the pot would tell me that at least some of these roots are almost constantly submerged.

I did have decent luck growing Paph tigrinum SH, and they also developed roots that stayed submerged. (I moved them to baskets though and they are doing even better).

I can't recall who it was, but someone on this site (I think from Canada) was growing P. belatulum SH and had amazing roots (some constantly submerged).


----------



## Stone (Nov 16, 2011)

Yes Rick I have Lance Birk's book and looking forward to getting Averyanov's.
I've also noticed that some roots can survive totally submerged in water as long as the bulk of them is above it. They must be supplying air to the bottom ones? I have a feeling that totally submerged is different to constantly wet. Possibly because the submerged roots are not subject to attack by aerobic pathogens?
And yeah I saw that bellatulum--amazing!


----------



## Stone (Nov 17, 2011)

Speaking of tigrinum and habitat info., Some time back I saw pictures of tigrinum growing high up in the trees growing mixed up with Dendrobium noble
in Burma. To anyone that grows D. nobile, that should speak volumes


----------



## cnycharles (Nov 17, 2011)

root structures that grow in water are different than those that grow exposed to the air most of the time. if a root grows across an open surface of tree it will be sort of hardened, but if then grows into the crotch or fork of tree where there are things holding water, that section of root will be different. usually water is moving where orchid roots are staying wet (being replenished), so that involves oxygen being moved into the water. stagnant water has very little oxygen.

temperatures make a big difference to whether or not roots and plants can be healthy growing in water. the people i've seen who have been able to be successful using s/h culture are in areas where their temperatures are warmer than cooler (general statement).. I was not successful using s/h culture with phals, I believe because I couldn't keep the plants warm enough, and got rot around the base of the plant because they were too cold. I did have air movement but that would cool things off even more quickly from evaporation. I do think though that if I had been able to be in a watering-heavy environment (using hose freely; I grow under lights) thing may have been happier but often my temps weren't warm enough. I also wonder if my water were too pure and maybe using tap water often was able to leach stuff out of the pellets?

from where I see most north american terrestrials growing, at least the 'upland' types that aren't in clay or in water, the soil is what I would expect asian terrestrials to appreciate; very moist at most time, but very loose and airy. also fallen leaves would congregate around the bases of plants, so that roots would be in a higher humidity zone. maybe loose leaves around bases of orchids would help keep that humidity higher but not necessitate more watering? just a thought


----------



## Ray (Nov 17, 2011)

Stone said:


> Yes Rick I have Lance Birk's book and looking forward to getting Averyanov's.
> I've also noticed that some roots can survive totally submerged in water as long as the bulk of them is above it. They must be supplying air to the bottom ones? I have a feeling that totally submerged is different to constantly wet. Possibly because the submerged roots are not subject to attack by aerobic pathogens?
> And yeah I saw that bellatulum--amazing!


If you think about it, many of the orchids we grow are "constantly wet" in nature, depending upon the climate of their habitat.

Yes, moisture can play a role in the spreading and development of a variety of pathogens, but it doesn't mean that it's a "must".

In my S/H presentation, I have a slide of a reed-stem epidendrum growing and blooming with its root system entirely submerged, so the roots must be getting their oxygen out of the solution.

My stance is that the roots tailor themselves to whatever environment they are in as they grow, so they can function optimally. Constantly wet, or constantly submerged, once they are grown, they will support the plant just fine. It seems to me that wet/dry/wet/dry is probably more stressful.

Once you've decided which way you want to go, the trick is to understand how that interrelates with all of the other aspects of your growing environment so you can make appropriate adjustments. Simply changing the water delivery without considering other stuff is a good way to head to failure. For example, a lot of beginners get the mistaken idea that s/h culture is 'the best" for all plants under all conditions, so they plop their phalaenopsis into LECA and away they go. Come winter, when thermostats are pushed low to save money, and the RH% plummets anyway, suddenly the evaporative cooling from the open, airy medium drives the root zone temperature to lows that the plant doesn't like, and they start losing roots.

I do want to reiterate/clarify an earlier comment about flushing: flushing "every time you water" is a good practice, but what I was trying to say is that doing so more often is better than less often.

No matter how you are growing the plant, flushing the pot more frequently will lead to better growth than doing so less frequently. When I used CHC or bark (straight Orchiata, these days), I tend to go with a coarser size than most folks, precisely because that prevents bridging water from totally filling the voids between particles and suffocating the roots. That allows me to water more frequently (as I don't have to wait for absorption and evaporation to open up the mix again), which flushes residues and sucks nice, fresh air into the root zone as it pours through.


----------



## Roth (Nov 17, 2011)

I think too that water oxygenation has its importance. I got a system with RO water going in the tank straight out of the pipe, and got at the same time lots of problems. With the water dripping in a big tank, hence passing through air, I did not have problems anymore. Carbonates seems to play a role, and not only as a buffer. 

With tap water or water where the carbonate content has been restored (passing through marble, or adding lime and CO2 bubbles to the water tank) it seems way easier to water the plants nearly nonstop with no root losses. The same when liming the plants with dolomitic limestone on top of the pots, and watering nonstop as long as there is powder, there is no root losses. When the dolomitic limestone is gone, no matter the pH or EC, problems start in my experience. It is not again a pH problem, but something else. 

For people who have no problem using pure RO water and calcium nitrate, I think there is an explanation still with CO2 or something like that. It is very unclear, but would be really worth more research (maybe some algae or bacteria release something in the media after a while, LECA is 'inert' but there must be algae, bacterias, and yeasts that could release CO2).

This would explain too why RO water and rain water behave really differently when using both. EU growers used to use plain rain water frequently, but if you try that with RO water, though there is not that much difference in ion concentration, you get a terrible mess after a few waterings. The only difference is the gas content of both water, clearly, ammonia, oxygen and CO2.


----------



## Rick (Nov 17, 2011)

Stone said:


> Speaking of tigrinum and habitat info., Some time back I saw pictures of tigrinum growing high up in the trees growing mixed up with Dendrobium noble
> in Burma. To anyone that grows D. nobile, that should speak volumes



I've also seen insitu pics of tigrinum in southern China growing at the base of trees in deep moss, ferns/and duff, dripping wet.

I have some rainfall data for parts of Sumatra and Malaysa, and there aren't some of the huge anual wet/dry differences there are in other jungle areas. But certainly not all paphs come from these sites too.


----------



## Ray (Nov 17, 2011)

Roth said:


> I think too that water oxygenation has its importance. I got a system with RO water going in the tank straight out of the pipe, and got at the same time lots of problems. With the water dripping in a big tank, hence passing through air, I did not have problems anymore. Carbonates seems to play a role, and not only as a buffer.
> 
> With tap water or water where the carbonate content has been restored (passing through marble, or adding lime and CO2 bubbles to the water tank) it seems way easier to water the plants nearly nonstop with no root losses. The same when liming the plants with dolomitic limestone on top of the pots, and watering nonstop as long as there is powder, there is no root losses. When the dolomitic limestone is gone, no matter the pH or EC, problems start in my experience. It is not again a pH problem, but something else.
> 
> ...


Hmmm... Maybe I should rethink replacing my current RO system and storage tank with an "on demand" system.

My RO tank is open-air and heated (~70°F), and I have had no issues with the water.


----------



## gonewild (Nov 17, 2011)

Ray said:


> Hmmm... Maybe I should rethink replacing my current RO system and storage tank with an "on demand" system.
> 
> My RO tank is open-air and heated (~70°F), and I have had no issues with the water.



Try adding a small aquarium air pump and air stone to tank to oxygenate the water.


----------



## gonewild (Nov 17, 2011)

Stone said:


> Plants evolve to thrive not just survive in a given environment. After all they have had millions of years to get it right.



Yes but the environment constantly changes (evolves) around the plant. Because the environment makes sudden radical changes the evolved plant may become not adapted to it's surroundings and perish. This happens frequently so that is why I suggest that looking at the natural conditions a plant is growing in is not necessarily the optimum conditions to copy in horticulture.



> Through human eyes they may appear ratty and beaten up but they are usually perfectly healthy. Probably more so than our often bloated over-fed captives.



Correct! But do you want your plants to be ratty and beaten up or bloated and beautiful to the human eye? 



> Your statement that very few plants in the tropics live very long is-
> I believe- just not correct.



I think it is correct when we look at the age of individuals rather than the age of species. In the Amazon most trees don't live past about 50 years.



> Orchids growing on 300 year old trees just keep growing unless they get eaten or fall off.



There is a lot of disagreement about the age of tropical trees. But most are far less than 300 years old. Not that they can't live that long but they die because the forest around them changes to a point that they are no longer supported. Old trees tend to grow tall and emerge from the canopy top and get knocked over by wind. Or after extended years vines overgrow the tree and topple it.

The same things happen to an orchid growing on an old tree. Maybe it has grown 20 years in perfect light with 50% shade from a limb on the tree and then that limb on the tree suddenly falls off. The orchid is not hurt but now it is in full sunlight. In a short time that orchid will likely die. So this is why I say Nature is not constant and is not necessarily the best condition to copy exactly.



> There are early records of Vandas estimated to be upwards of 100 years old and I've seen dendrobiums that would have to be at least 50.



Sure orchids can live forever in theory. I have a Zygopetalum that I have had since 1964. It was an old division from a wild collected plant when it was given to me, it could be 100 years old or more? It has suffered abuse and it has been pampered. During it's abuse times it probably had conditions very similar to it's natural environment, frequent long dry periods and full sun. When abused it looks exactly like a wild growing plant (ratty) and maybe has one or two flower spikes each year. When it was well cared for (obese), waterd and fertilized everyday it is lush and once it had 22 flower spikes......OK the point here is that orchids can live a long time and grow under many different conditions and how they look depends on how you treat them. The task of a horticulturist is to improve on nature and grow plants better than nature.



> Nature dosen't have a ''method'' to keep growth under control, It just is what it is.



Nature may not have a published strict "method" to keep growth under control but plant growth is positively kept under control and the "method" for plants is the same as for animal populations...."predator and prey". We just need to realize that the predator is not necessarily an animal. A lion kills a zebra and removes it from the environment and moss might kill an orchid and remove it from the environment.... That is Natures "method" and yes "it just is what it is". 



> You can't seperate it's components.



Nature can't separate the components but humans can.



> But you've given me food for thought and I might experiment with keeping some wetter to see what happens. Thanks for your input



It's all only food for thought! The correct method to use to water your plants is the method that allows the plants to grow into something that gives you pleasure.

Also we are commenting about "orchids" in general. You used Vanda as an example and I used Zygopetalum. Both of those genera have adapted (evolved) to better resist predators (drought) than have paphs or phrags.
A vanda can tolerate a lot of abuse and recover while slight abuse of a paph will result in quick death. But still the general principles remain the same.

Thinking, discussing and experimenting is how humans can separate the components of Nature and on a small scale rule over Nature. :sob: (for a moment in time).

Keep posting your observations.


----------



## keithrs (Nov 17, 2011)

Hydro guys like to use waterfalls mixed with air stones.....This mixes the solution as well as aerates with water...... Water temp also has a effect on how much O2 saturation water can hold..... 68 f being the tipping point for pure water. 66-70 f is where most hydro growers want there water temps.

Its also believed that a potting mix that can't breath properly through anaerobic respiration causes the roots to ferment. These is why its important to have airy mix. 

As far as adding lime..... grape grower have been adding lime sulfur to stop the reproduction of pathogens with good results....but it doesn't kill the pathogen so they have to reapply weekly or sooner if the get a rain storm. Quicklime is also used by some. Human waste plants also use lime to kill pathogens in waste. 
There are also root stimulators that protect the roots from pathogens which in effect allow the root zone to expand 100% or more. I'm not sure if it will work for orchids or not.


----------



## Stone (Nov 17, 2011)

Firstly, could someone please tell me how to extract certain passages of text without quoting the whole reply? I'm still in the embrionic stage of computer litteracy.


----------



## gonewild (Nov 17, 2011)

Stone said:


> Firstly, could someone please tell me how to extract certain passages of text without quoting the whole reply? I'm still in the embrionic stage of computer litteracy.



Start with quoting the whole post in your reply.
Highlight the part you want to quote. (Like for example the first sentence)
Then click the WRAP (quote) icon in the tool bar. It is 5th from the right on the bottom line next to the image icon.
That puts the selected area into a block quote by inserting this little piece of code at the beginning....


> and this at the end ....[/QUOTE ].
> The above [/QUOTE ] has a space added to keep it from working, without the extra space it does this to the text.....
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Stone (Nov 17, 2011)

Thankyou Lance, You're a legand! I'm going to need time to practice.:rollhappy:


----------



## gonewild (Nov 17, 2011)

Stone said:


> Thankyou Lance, You're a legand! I'm going to need time to practice.:rollhappy:



If we keep this watering discussion going you will get plenty of opportunity to practice. :clap:


----------



## Stone (Nov 17, 2011)

Ray said:


> > If you think about it, many of the orchids we grow are "constantly wet" in nature, depending upon the climate of their habitat
> 
> 
> .
> ...


----------



## Stone (Nov 17, 2011)

Roth said:


> > I think too that water oxygenation has its importance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Stone (Nov 17, 2011)

Rick said:


> I've also seen insitu pics of tigrinum in southern China growing at the base of trees in deep moss, ferns/and duff, dripping wet.
> 
> I have some rainfall data for parts of Sumatra and Malaysa, and there aren't some of the huge anual wet/dry differences there are in other jungle areas. But certainly not all paphs come from these sites too.



Interesting. It shows how adaptable they can be. If they are growing with D.nobile, it also shows that they must experience lenghthy periods without rain and a fairly pronounced dormancy. Some mosses and ferns can also go dormant for months.


----------



## Stone (Nov 17, 2011)

> Nature can't separate the components but humans can.



Aren't humans and everything they do ( even though they are a cancer of meat-bags destroying everything in their path.--'' generally '' notice I say ''they'' not ''we'' ) part of nature?oke:

Thank's again for the computer tips Lance.


----------



## gonewild (Nov 17, 2011)

Stone said:


> Aren't humans and everything they do ( even though they are a cancer of meat-bags destroying everything in their path.--'' generally '' notice I say ''they'' not ''we'' ) part of nature?oke:



Yes, humans are part of it. But somehow humans became able to seperate the parts of nature and use that ability for an unbalanced lop sided gain. So maybe humans aren't part of Nature at all. 
Take a look at this new clip from Peru.... Non Human Mummy
Maybe we can blame the problem on him.



> Thank's again for the computer tips Lance.



Glad to help!


----------



## Stone (Nov 17, 2011)

> Take a look at this new clip from Peru.... Non Human Mummy
> Maybe we can blame the problem on him.



Thats GOTTA prove it! we are all from outer-space.


----------



## Rick (Nov 17, 2011)

Stone said:


> Ray said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...


----------



## Stone (Nov 17, 2011)

Rick said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > Recently I've had to do a bunch of research on wild rice (Zanzinia) and commercial rice culture.
> ...


----------



## Rick (Nov 17, 2011)

Dissolved Oxygen.

Not sure if we've drifted off the original question of this thread, but what is the chemistry of the water you use for irrigation?

Is it pure distilled or RO?

Is it possible that the root growth is a response to increase in water or increase in a chemical in your water?

For years I watered (between weekly fertilizing) with straight RO. I believed in the notion that orchids were "salt sensitive" and my well water was very hard in mineral composition. 

About 2 years ago I started adding a dash of Epsom salts periodically to my RO irrigation water, and shortly thereafter adding 10% of my [email protected]%#! well water back into my RO water for regular irrigation. Growth rate, root production, and leaf color and substance improved dramatically. Reducing K in the fertilizer even more so.

Unless you are using pure water, could your plants be responding to increase in soluble Ca, Mg, and Silicates? Are you diluting out K buildup in the potting mix or offsetting a poor Ca/K ratio with increased amounts of your dilution water?

You might try an experiment with side by side groups of seedlings and water (with your present schedule) using your present irrigation water, and the same thing with straight RO (I'm assuming you may not be doing this already).


----------



## Stone (Nov 17, 2011)

Rick said:


> Dissolved Oxygen.
> 
> Not sure if we've drifted off the original question of this thread, but what is the chemistry of the water you use for irrigation?
> 
> ...



I'm using 100% rainwater. I used Town water for years before I moved. It was horrible stuff. ph was about 10 and it left terrible calcium deposits on everything including leaves. Now with the rainwater, everything is perfectly clean and growing well.
I'm very wary of going back to mains water even though it's much better here. I have been adding very low levels of Cal.Nitrate after flushing and aside from regular feeding trying to keep on top of that K problem. (I've read
there's enough K in most barks to last a year without adding any extra!)
Along with a little Extra Mg and the occasional sprinkle of steamed bone meal , I figure I should have a reasonable N/K/Ca/Mg ratio.


----------



## Rick (Nov 18, 2011)

Maybe going back to the original question of... does heavy watering after extended dry promote root growth (assuming that there is nothing in the water)...... I was looking around my GH this morning, and realized the amount of root growth (and new leaves/shoots) in the last couple months has been moving along at a much better rate than during the summer months.


However, because it is getting cooler and light duration reducing, I have been reducing both water and feeding since the middle of September. Not by a lot, so actual pot/basket moisture levels are probably not appreciably different.

I think others (at least working in GH's) have noticed a burst of activity after the hot summer doldrums. Can't say that it was attributed to increase in watering.

Usually a lot of paph growers will curtail watering somewhat anyway for cool periods, and wait for activity to start again in the spring before turning up the juice with more water and food.

But this could be the chicken / egg question. Does watering cause root growth or does increase in root growth induce growers to water more?


Since bark/CHC/moss, and other plant products contain all of our favorite goodies (without supplemental feeding). Is it also possible that by letting the material go through some dry/wet cycles, that you solublize nutirients that would otherwise be difficult to pull out of the cellulose? 

Or did we cover all this already??


----------



## Rick (Nov 18, 2011)

5 pages back you asked if you where watering correctly.

I guess the answer is yes if you are satisfied with the survival and growth rate of your plants.

Also if your survival to blooming size is pushing 100% and blooming is generally achieved by 5 years out of flask, then I'd say you have nothing to complain about comparing to just about the best of us.

There's a few speices I could claim that for, but looking around and comparing what others do (exactling what you are doing now) is how I improved the results for the species that didn't make the above cut. 

The above was the reason that got me fixated on the low K stuff. I've filtered all the anecdotal info from questions I've asked on this site, tracked my own half baked experiments, and reviewed the field research and agri literature. Kind of like a giant mental ANOVA.


----------



## Stone (Nov 18, 2011)

When I think about it, my observations were really more directed towards the parvis and brachys that I'm inerested in at the moment. Not so much the Indonesian sp. which seem to like more water and heat generally. Just looking at the leaf structure ( more succulent, leathery, harder and smaller ) indicates to me that they come from more extreme type environments and need to be able to survive periods without rainfall. at least more so than the soft leaved types. Maybe they have a greater sensitivity to periodic water.
Or maybe I'm just pinpricking.
All we can do is try to keep learning.
I have lots more subjects I'd like to disscuss.... temperature.......air...............light.........................individual sp......etc....etc


----------



## Rick (Nov 18, 2011)

Stone said:


> When I think about it, my observations were really more directed towards the parvis and brachys that I'm inerested in at the moment.



Then for sure, you really need to get Averyanov's book for all the climate and natural history details for parvis.

At least from my perspective, the brachys are a bit different. Most (bellatulum seems to be the exception) are found relatively close to the ocean. Some are found within salt water spray range of the ocean.

Have you seen any of the insitu pics of niveum (and leucochilum too I believe) growing sympatrically with exul on limestone cliffs just above the waves?

Having them so close to salt water should dispel the myth that they are sensitive to salts.

However, that does not mean that they are insensitive to ionic imbalance. Saltwater fish and inverts will die (in less than 48 hours) in saltwater composed only of NaCl. It needs to have the correct ratios of Mg, Ca, and K along with the Na to provide a suitable environment (I've done this test in my lab several times to verify this). Natural saltwater is only about 2/3's NaCl. The next most abundant salt is Mag Sulfate, followed by Calcium salts, with Potassium salts a close 4th.

Then if you add the fact that they grow on limestone cliffs, you start to put together a picture that Na may be irrelevant as long as there's a ton of Ca and Mg around.

Bellatulum may be the only brachy that is strictly inland (concolor ranges widely, but apparently also has seaside populations), but it is also found in close association with limestone.


----------



## Stone (Nov 19, 2011)

One of our club members showed us a picture of niveum growing in basically full sun on what looked like bare rock with no moss or leaf-litter to be seen but a straggly shrub growing above it for midday shade. They were just meters from the ocean. These are tough plants!

Aren't Na ions easily replaced by Ca ions? We were told apply Gypsum to improve sodic soils as Ca is more tightly held than Na.
I'm basically treating my concolor like bellatulums.


----------



## Rick (Nov 19, 2011)

Stone said:


> One of our club members showed us a picture of niveum growing in basically full sun on what looked like bare rock with no moss or leaf-litter to be seen but a straggly shrub growing above it for midday shade. They were just meters from the ocean. These are tough plants!
> 
> Aren't Na ions easily replaced by Ca ions? We were told apply Gypsum to improve sodic soils as Ca is more tightly held than Na.
> I'm basically treating my concolor like bellatulums.



Ion exchange is a two way street. Especially if the attraction is moderately low. What can go in can often be reversed with a high enough concentration of the opposing ion. In your bark, moss or CHC mixes, the preference is actually to retain the monovalents (Na and K)but you can force them out (and keep them out) with a good dose of divalent ions (Ca and Mg).

But if you don't keep up the maintenance of the Mg and/or Ca then these can be replaced out again by the monovalents. 

My speculation is that this is one big reason everyone is seeing so much improvement switching to the Orchiata products while still using a fairly high dose of K in their fert mix.

As you've noted there may be very little soil around niveum roots anyway. So the cation exchange issue may not be important for wild plants as opposed to the imbalance of ions sucked up by the plant. Using the marine organism example I gave, the uptake of salts is not a passive act based strictly on the relative amounts of the ions in the environment. There is a selection going on, but the organism is also working with the whole matrix to help push and pull the ions into its system.


----------



## cnycharles (Nov 20, 2011)

one thought about plants that are growing near the ocean and get spray, is that even though they may be near sodium, they are likely always wet with oxygenated water. often when my plants get burn it's because the salts get high when they dry out. near the ocean, they may be getting 'leached' all the time sort of so to speak


----------



## paphioboy (Nov 20, 2011)

I posted a thread on exul and brachys in-situ here:

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19064&highlight=exul+in-situ


----------



## gonewild (Nov 21, 2011)

cnycharles said:


> one thought about plants that are growing near the ocean and get spray, is that even though they may be near sodium, they are likely always wet with oxygenated water. often when my plants get burn it's because the salts get high when they dry out. near the ocean, they may be getting 'leached' all the time sort of so to speak



Yes. And anything near the ocean is damp at night. So the roots on these plants are probably never dry for long. 
Where the plants grow near the ocean spray how often does it rain?


----------



## Rick (Nov 21, 2011)

gonewild said:


> Yes. And anything near the ocean is damp at night. So the roots on these plants are probably never dry for long.
> Where the plants grow near the ocean spray how often does it rain?



According too Birk, the rainy season lasts from somewhere around May and tapers of in November. And then its supposed to be real dry (during Northern hemisphere winter months).


----------



## Rick (Nov 21, 2011)

Had a friend that lived on Toes beach in LA. House was 100 or so yards from the water. Pretty much any unfinished metal (car frames, bike parts....) would rust away at a much faster rate than anything at my house (about 10 miles from the waves). The regular fogs also seemed to conduct the salt spray even when the wind was light.

I really don't think it makes that much different if conditions are damp or dry with regards to salt overload in the plants, but rather the balance of the different ions.

The marine organisms I referred to are constantly immersed in water, but fatality is assured if there is no Ca/Mg/K to go with all the NaCl

The salts are going to go into the plants wet or dry.


----------

