# Phrag dallesandroi and besseae



## cnycharles (Jan 30, 2008)

Like a few others here, I bought a phrag dallesandroi that seems to be an intermediate between the two or just part of the large complex. My plant does have internodes of sorts, the first flower (which fell off after I took it to orchid club meeting) had downswept petals but didn't have center orange blaze. The one spike had one open bud, another just opening with another bud in the top of the sheath. The other spike is slightly behind but has a large bud with at least one or two still in the sheath waiting to come out. It is potted in large diatomite and stands in water though in summer/fall sometimes it dries out very quickly and has been hurt a bit because of overdrying. There are mealybugs here and there which have also hurt the newest growths.







whole plant view phrag dallesandroi








closeup 1








closeup 2








side view








Phrag besseae at same bud stage for comparison

the besseae is potted in small diatomite. plant is from glen decker and the first two flowerings the color was amazing and I just couldn't get the depth of the color to show in the picture. more buds may be open in a few days and I can get more pictures then.

one thing i'm wondering is how you can find a pot wide enough to keep these plants in?! It would have to be a large azalea pot (I have clay ones now, with sliced sides) so as not to be too deep. any other advice? I actually thought of taking a large paint roller tray and putting potting material in it to allow the upwards growth of besseae types.


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## rdlsreno (Jan 30, 2008)

Cool! 

Ramon


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## JeanLux (Jan 31, 2008)

Great flower!! Jean


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## NYEric (Jan 31, 2008)

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2113&highlight=contraption
Who did you get the blooming sized dal. from and what is the leafspan? It might be Phrag Jersey also. Someone like Kyle has more experience w/ telling the diff. than I do.


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## goldenrose (Jan 31, 2008)

Sorry - I'm pretty sure it's not dallesandroi, you said it - it doesn't have the branching. As Eric indicated it's probably Jersey, as most of us may have!


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## Kyle (Jan 31, 2008)

It looks nice. I don't know what it is. I've seen a lot of them. Two questions:

Where did you get it and can you take a close up picture of the staminiode?

Dalessandroi is more likely to have a branching inflorescence, but it doesn't always have it. Young plants or those that are grown under less then ideal conditions are less likely to branch.

Kyle


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## cnycharles (Jan 31, 2008)

*?'s, staminodes and buds, oh my!*

Hello all,
So many questions! I took some pictures, got them uploaded. Will answer questions below








staminode of ?dallesandroi










staminode of ?dallesandroi







?dallesandroi other bud






the besseae bud for comparison. 
(sorry, lights in room are compact fluorescent and color of wall gives the picture editing program canaries; very hard to get accurate color balance)


First: where get, and wingspan - the longest leaf is exactly 12" from center of growing point, many other leaves average 7". I got it from Dennis Dallesandroi, but the tag in the pot has '2004', phrag besseae var. dallesandroi and www.phrags.com on it. 

It has more running rhizomes than upright, and if the mealybuds hadn't eaten them the new growths were coming out within an inch or so of each other. I know that dallesandroi is supposed to have no rhizomes, but then I have a besseae flavum that has no rhizomes. 

No, it's not branching. There was one old spike on an old growth, but the present spikes are going to have at least four buds on them. One more of the smaller growths has just the tip of another spike sticking out of it but hasn't emerged any more. It may not have had 'ideal' conditions since it has had mealybugs picking here and there on the new growths etc., and it definitely dried out hard a few times late this summer/fall when I was busy and the relative humidity got pretty low (lots of drought conditions outside). the spikes are really long and I wonder if the light is a bit low for the phrags there; I also have fertilized very little and considering all of that there are all of these flowers. The besseae in comparison had the same conditions and though it was extremely vigorous to start it doesn't look nearly as nice. My visual observation of the staminode was that there was no emergent ridge on the upper middle surface. Lots of fuzz, though 

It may not be a dallesandroi, but then again it may be all of the above a little. Considering all of the discussion about dallesandroi and besseae, it could just be could a fairly complex besseae and if it keeps flowering like this then I think I'll keep it! (just maybe without the bugs)


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## SlipperFan (Jan 31, 2008)

Mealies are a pain. I found a little plant of mine with mealies today. I sprayed the whole thing with alcohol >> no more mealies.


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## Kyle (Jan 31, 2008)

You would think that Dennis Dallsandroi would be the best source for these plants, but it would seem that a lot of people got there suspect plants from him.

I can't tell from your staminode picture. The distinguishing part is the lack of the 'tooth' at the bottom of the staminode. You plant has the wide leaves that are common of mature/old dalessandrois. It also has the high dorsal/short pouch. 

Its also hard to see what angle the oveary hangs at.

Kyle


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## cnycharles (Jan 31, 2008)

Kyle said:


> You would think that Dennis Dallsandroi would be the best source for these plants, but it would seem that a lot of people got there suspect plants from him.
> 
> I can't tell from your staminode picture. The distinguishing part is the lack of the 'tooth' at the bottom of the staminode. You plant has the wide leaves that are common of mature/old dalessandrois. It also has the high dorsal/short pouch.
> 
> ...



Oh, I see. I can get a different picture tomorrow. I was looking for detail in the wrong spot. I'm not sure about what the hanging ovary angle means.


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## NYEric (Feb 1, 2008)

It's very sexy!


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## Kyle (Feb 1, 2008)

Dalessandroi holds its flowers at a different angle then besseae. Dalessnadroi on the left






also, here is a picture of the staminodes. dalessandroi on the right






and a picture of the growth habit






Kyle


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## NYEric (Feb 1, 2008)

When you search dalessandroi there's a post w/ input from Olaf Gruss. The photos of the type plant have similar shape and color to your flower but the center is light [blaze] adn the growth isn't stolonous. I'd say it's a Jersey unless the flowers match the type photo.


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## cnycharles (Feb 1, 2008)

Thanks for the info and pictures, Kyle. I did see the posts before from Olaf about dalessandroi and also the staminode pictures that you posted above. Even with that I couldn't tell before because it seemed like it had some characteristics of each. That is also something that I had heard or read from other people who had purchased dalessandrois from Dennis, that they couldn't tell just what they were. When I look at my plant, I can see that the flowers sweep out of the green sheath on the stem as opposed to the 45˚ angle. Here is a picture of the staminode still on the flower (will get a picture just of it after the flower falls off. It looks pretty heart-shaped as a whole rather than 'pointed' on the bottom, if that is the indicator. 








The picture quality looks terrible in comparison to what I was looking at in the editing program, must be different color profiles. I don't know if it is helpful or not.

I guess the best thing is to grow it better and see if the new shoots still come out as rhizomes, if it branches, things like that. When the besseae opens tomorrow then I can compare the two as well.
thanks again,
charles


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## cnycharles (Feb 7, 2008)

*new staminode picture*

the previous flower fell off when I was going to get a shot of the plant with two flowers open (figures). here's a shot of the staminode. the plant has more besseae characteristics than dalessandroi, though I think it is a mix.


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