# why aren't there african slippers?



## likespaphs (Jun 14, 2007)

i was thinking about this the other day or was it night?
anyways, between Cyps, Paphs, Phrags and Selenipediums, there are slippers on all the continents, well, except africa and australia. can anyone tell me why and dumb it down a bit as i ain't so good with some scientific stuff...


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## bwester (Jun 14, 2007)

i think it all goes back to pangea and gondwanaland, who knows. ....go to that new multi million dollar creation museum where they have dinosaurs living with adam and eve and maybe they can tell you :rollhappy:


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## NYEric (Jun 14, 2007)

I'll check w/ the time machine. No actually, the closest thing to slippers from Africa are Disas.


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## likespaphs (Jun 14, 2007)

closest in terms of appearance or related?


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## NYEric (Jun 14, 2007)

In terms of leaf structure and growing conditions. Similar to Phrags.


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## likespaphs (Jun 14, 2007)

but not morphologically or genetically, right?
(did i use those terms right? i meant flower structure (well, more like Paphs, Phrags and Cyps than they're both orchids) and very closely related (perhaps that's considered subfamily?))


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## kentuckiense (Jun 14, 2007)

Australia actually has a very close slipper relative: an Apostasia (from the subfamily Apostasioideae which forms a stable clade with the Cypripedioideae). 

As for the the lack of slippers in Australia and Africa, I doubt you could pin down a single reason. There are many factors... Too arid, too low humidity, perhaps the geography at the time made it impossible.

This is a fun topic... I love phytogeographics!


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## bwester (Jun 14, 2007)

NYEric said:


> I'll check w/ the time machine. No actually, the closest thing to slippers from Africa are Disas.



yeah, where is Mr. Peabody anyways? :rollhappy:


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## NYEric (Jun 14, 2007)

drizzle, drazzle, drazzle, drome, time for this one to come home!


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## John D. (Jun 14, 2007)

Help Mr. Wizard Help. Our generations are showing.


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## NYEric (Jun 14, 2007)

Best 5 all time cartoons: Winky Dink, Quickdraw Magraw, Crazycat & Ignatz mouse. Bugs Bunny, Deputy Dog


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## cdub (Jun 14, 2007)

kentuckiense said:


> Too arid, too low humidity



Africa has some pretty darn humid tropical rainforests, although dwinding in size at an unimaginable rate.



kentuckiense said:


> perhaps the geography at the time made it impossible.



I think the past geography may be the best answer to this question. If there was a way to prove it, I would bet a large sum of money that there were slipper-type orchids on Africa, but have since become extinct.


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## kentuckiense (Jun 14, 2007)

cdub said:


> Africa has some pretty darn humid tropical rainforests, although dwinding in size at an unimaginable rate.



Yes, they do, but at the moment (and a chunk of time into the past, I'd imagine) they are isolated from slipper orchid areas of Europe and Asia by thousands of miles of desert via the Sahara and the Arabian Peninsula. However, that could be a recent phenomenon, and I'd agree that Africa probably had 'em at some point.


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Jun 14, 2007)

So I guess you guys haven't heard about the genus _Afripedium_...

Jon


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## Leo Schordje (Jun 14, 2007)

In the "vague but true" corner of my brain, 

The slippers, Cypripedioideae, became a distinct group some 100+ million years ago. I believe both Africa and Australia had already separated from the super-continent Pangea by that time. Yet at that time Asia-Europe-North+South America were still connected in the fragment of Pangea called Gondowanaland. 

My guess is they just didn't get established there. Let's intoduce them into the wild. Africa needs some invasives like Paphs


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## Mark (Jun 14, 2007)

I want a "Reunite Gondwanaland" bumper sticker...


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## Heather (Jun 14, 2007)

Mark said:


> I want a "Reunite Gondwanaland" bumper sticker...



I'm pretty sure they made those. Have you checked ebay?


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## Heather (Jun 14, 2007)

bwester said:


> yeah, where is Mr. Peabody anyways? :rollhappy:




Eric, I can't believe you left out Bullwinkle and Family Guy.....so disappointed.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jun 14, 2007)

Actually, Africa in general does not have too many orchids as compared to the other continents...there's Disa, Aeranthes, Polystachya, Ansellia,and others, but overall, compared to tropical Asia and S. America, really lacking...Take care, Eric


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## Heather (Jun 14, 2007)

Yes but the question is WHY!???!

I think the Pangea theory holds a bit of water for sure. Timewise, Leo's theory makes sense to me.


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## Rick (Jun 14, 2007)

This is a pretty interesting notion. Bulbophylum made it into Africa, but they haven't radiated into the miriad of forms you see in SE Asia and the Pacific. But Bulbophylum is pretty limited in South America too.

In more recent millions of years I would have thought that it would not have been that hard for slippers to work west across India to Madagascar and into Africa. 

I'm guessing that there are too many big expanses of hot and dry (or at least hot) to really favor the orchid diversity we see in Asia and SA. Maybe the insect diversity is lower too for supporting a greater diversity of pollination strategies.

Maybe the stupid monkeys picked them all into extinction:evil:


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## dave b (Jun 14, 2007)

They were eaten by the vast herds of wildebeests, gazelles, and the hippos finished what was left.


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## Roy (Jun 15, 2007)

I reckon there are Paphs growing in Australia only we haven't found them yet.
They grow down as far as New Guinea and Islands. Like the recent discoveries in China & Vietnam & Phrag discoveries in Peru & Ecuador, people haven't got into every part of Tropical Australia. Mind you, because of the snakes, their eyes might be on the ground too much to look up for the epiphytic paphs!!!


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## Bolero (Jun 15, 2007)

bwester said:


> i think it all goes back to pangea and gondwanaland, who knows. ....go to that new multi million dollar creation museum where they have dinosaurs living with adam and eve and maybe they can tell you :rollhappy:



LOL!!!!! I saw that one on the news......very funny.


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## Mark (Jun 15, 2007)

bwester said:


> i think it all goes back to pangea and gondwanaland, who knows. ....go to that new multi million dollar creation museum where they have dinosaurs living with adam and eve and maybe they can tell you :rollhappy:



I am quite tempted to email them with the question. The answer would probably be entertaining if not actually informative.


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## NYEric (Jun 15, 2007)

Atlantians harvested them to extinction! 
Heather, Simpsons demolish Family Guy but I'm talking about pre-adult cartoons.


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## Hien (Jun 15, 2007)

Roy said:


> I reckon there are Paphs growing in Australia only we haven't found them yet.
> They grow down as far as New Guinea and Islands. Like the recent discoveries in China & Vietnam & Phrag discoveries in Peru & Ecuador, people haven't got into every part of Tropical Australia. Mind you, because of the snakes, their eyes might be on the ground too much to look up for the epiphytic paphs!!!


 Somehow, I like Roy's thought,
Because we have not seen it yet, does not mean it is not out there somewhere.


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## dave b (Jun 15, 2007)

Seriously this time.

It seems that most of the African regions that sustain orchids isint well suited for paphs. due to the dry seasons. The epiphytes are found in areas that recieve heavy moisture via clouds and mist during these dry spells. Thus, the humidity levels during the dry season are recorded as being quite high (typically well above 50%). Most of the terrestrials survive the dry spells because of tubers or pseudobulbs, and they are dormant during these times. 

Not to say that there are not areas that couldnt provide the right conditions. 

If they were once there, conditions have changed such that it isint now a suitable environment.


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## likespaphs (Jun 15, 2007)

dave b said:


> Seriously this time.
> 
> It seems that most of the African regions that sustain orchids isint well suited for paphs. due to the dry seasons....



okay, but why not cyps?


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## Leo Schordje (Jun 15, 2007)

Back on track with Dave B. spouting forth from my vague but true recollections and ruminations. When continents split much of what today is Africa and Australia I believe were largely deserts or shallow seas. In recent history the African equatroial regions have been a stable rain forest for a mere 10 million years. But back 100 million years ago I don't think the African continent was as hospitable as it is today for the ancestors of Paphs or Phrags. Much of it was desert or shallow inland seas. 
Cyps generally are a north temperate boreal genus, may have evolve into existance while Africa was too far south and had that big Sahara desert as a block to colonization. 
Australia was the first continent to leave the Pangea, it simply wandered away from the party too soon to get its dose of Cypripediodiae or Placental Mammals. 
I believe in the case of Bulbophyllums there is evidence that they colonized South America fairly recently (less than 10 million years ago) most likely as wind blown seed. Bulbos are found around the globe, in the southern equatorial latitudes, ie. SE Asia, Borneo, PNG, Africa, Madagascar, Brazil, etc. Again this factoid is from my vague but true file, double check this before you cite it as veritas. 
We need a paleoclimatologist to weigh in. Any on this forum? 
Leo


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## NYEric (Jun 16, 2007)

Blasphemy!


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## SlipperFan (Jun 16, 2007)

NYEric said:


> Blasphemy!


Huh???


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## Rick (Jun 16, 2007)

likespaphs said:


> okay, but why not cyps?



It seems like Paph druryi is pushing the paph envelope as far as coming close to something that can inhabit savanah/open forest. But it still catches some of the standard monsoon season. Also it's probably the geographically closest slipper to Madagascar.

Also Mexipedium pushes the limit for a dry adapted slipper too.

The Angreacems seem to be very succesfull in Africa/Madagascar, and ecologically they are very much like the South American Brassalova sp. There are also allot of African terrestrials that remind me allot of the Australian species.

This is certainly some interesting speculation.


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## likespaphs (Jun 17, 2007)

thanks, folks!


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## Gideon (Jun 17, 2007)

Who says there aren't any African Slippers? It only takes one, maybe it still has to be discovered. New plants are being discovered in South Africa every year, and in places where they never thought to exist, take Clivia mirabilis as an example, it grows in totally different enviroment to other Clivia. Some areas of the Congo and Kenyan rainforests still have to be explored, and until there is peace in the DRC that seems unlikely...well I am off to pack my hiking boots


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## Roy (Jun 17, 2007)

Leo, I agree with your comments to a certain extent. I'm an optimist. I look at the diverse locations, climates & countries where Paphs are found and the variation is great. This why I believe that there are Paphs in Aust. Given your theory, why is it that Paphs are not found in Sth America but Phrags are ? I don't think there is a much closer relative to the Paph than a Phrag, or is there?? How long did it take to find P. vietnamense, micranthum, malipoense, ameniacum, sangii, helenae, tranliemianum, Phrag beeseae & kovachii etc. I know it's difficult to explore these countries at times but 'wow' collectors were in the countries in the 1800's or earlier.


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## Rick (Jun 17, 2007)

Gideon said:


> Who says there aren't any African Slippers? It only takes one, maybe it still has to be discovered. New plants are being discovered in South Africa every year, and in places where they never thought to exist, take Clivia mirabilis as an example, it grows in totally different enviroment to other Clivia. Some areas of the Congo and Kenyan rainforests still have to be explored, and until there is peace in the DRC that seems unlikely...well I am off to pack my hiking boots



GO FOR IT DUDE!!!

Just don't get eaten by canibals.:sob:


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## NYEric (Jun 18, 2007)

SlipperFan said:


> Huh???



Evilution! In the beginning there was darkness...oke:


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## Heather (Jun 18, 2007)

I think Rick's example of Mexipedium is an interesting one. It amazes me that it has clearly adapted to a dryer winter period as evidenced in its very succulent small leaves and stoloniferous growth habit. That's one of the reasons it is my favorite slipper! Now, if only it was fragrant. 

I would not be at all surprised if there was something else out there that has adapted to dryer conditions and we just haven't found it yet.


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## SlipperFan (Jun 18, 2007)

NYEric said:


> Evilution! In the beginning there was darkness...oke:


And then came the Big Bang... lots of light!


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## NYEric (Jun 19, 2007)

More blasphemy!


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## Rick (Jun 19, 2007)

Is it time to bring back the spagheti monster.


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## Heather (Jun 20, 2007)

What would TSM do?


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## likespaphs (Jun 23, 2007)

Heather said:


> What would TSM do?



do you mean fsm?
(flying spaghetti monster)


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## Heather (Jun 23, 2007)

Yes, as in The Spaghetti Monster. 
whoops.


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