# Paph. chamberlainianum (victoria-regina) 'Blue'



## Paul (Oct 27, 2013)

Hello tuti,

I send you photos of a friend's plant, supposed to be the one titled. I'm not sure if it's the species, maybe it can be a special variety of wether victoria-regina (chamberlainianum) or liemianum. Or maybe it can be an undiscribed species (only a couple plants of that one known to me), that's my opinion.
If there are good taxinomists, thank you for your comments.


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## tomkalina (Oct 27, 2013)

Whatever it is, it's a beauty.....


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## SlipperFan (Oct 27, 2013)

Interesting. The first one almost looks fake, it is so different.


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## Daniel Herrera (Oct 27, 2013)

Beautiful! I want one.....


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## Ozpaph (Oct 27, 2013)

why 'Blue'? I cant see any blue in it at all.
Most unusual.


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## Leo Schordje (Oct 27, 2013)

I'm skeptical

It ain't chamberlainianum 
Definitely is not liemianum
It is not kalinae
It is not any of the other known cochlopetalum species

nobody really knows what victoria-regina should look like (original description does not have a drawing or a specimen) so that is why Dr. Braem and some others don't want to use the name. Later claims of this or that being victoria-regina are speculation at best. 

to me it looks like some of the complex primulinum hybrids, made with mostly primulinum. I could see coming up with similar coloration if one took normal color form of Henietta Fujiwara and crossed it to primulinum yellow form.

It might be (lowii x primulinum) x primulinum

My money would be that this is a man made hybrid. Unless one could document provenance, including source location, I am very doubtful that this is a species. 

But what ever it is, it looks interesting. I would enjoy growing it, and speculating about it's origin. Hope the owner did not pay a huge sum of money for it.


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## paphioboy (Oct 28, 2013)

Very nice.. The contrast of dark petals and light pouch is very striking... Can you show us the whole plant pic (leaves) from the top and side?


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## Paul (Oct 28, 2013)

The first picture is latest bloom, second picture is last year. The pouch is supposed to be a little coerulea. Another friend of I that saw the second plant in bloom said me it really has a slightly "blue" colour on the pouch.

Leo: Thank you for your comments. In my mind, victoria-regina is chamberlainianum (accepted name for Kew)
Complex hybrid: possible, but I don't see anything from another section. Possible that the petals colour comes from an hybridation of plants with dark petals, making almost plain "red" petals (like what has been made with leucochilum, all red-black) in a few or unique plant.
I don't have photo of the plant yet, asked him but none yet. The leaves have a darker red margin, a little bit like the vinicolor delenatii have. That's also what makes me think it's a special plant, or even an unique mutation (hybridation or not)

The best would be that Xavier tells us about it, has he was the one would sold the very few plants.


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## Fabrice (Oct 28, 2013)

2 links, the 1st one with a sister plant picture and the 2nd one from the mother plant selfed.
If Roth find a little time to reply, he's probably the personn who did the selfing.

http://www.rv-orchidworks.com/orchidtalk/paphiopedilum-phragmipedium-cypripedium-bloom/9402-paph-chamberlainianum-blue.html

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7717


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## SlipperKing (Oct 28, 2013)

I remember when Xavier posted the mother plant. Since we haven't heard anything about this rare clone I thought he had lost it. It's great to see the selfings are alive and well!


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## Paul (Oct 28, 2013)

here is the answer of the plant's grower:



> Mmmh... You underestimate yourself about paph knowledge !
> 
> Victoria mariae is a bit close, but the petals of the chamb "blue" ( that's was his name, given at that time by Azadehdel...) are really red, not hint of green unlike victoria mariae. The staminode is very different too. The main problem of that plant is that it has traits from a couple of species from that group, but is clearly independent ( the selfings are here to proove that it is not an hybrid at all...).



Actually, he's right... hard to get that kind of plant with hybridizing... maybe not impossible but I personnaly don't know how, especially looking the green staminoide combined with the dark petals: only primulum album has that kind of staminoide but I'm pretty sure it's not a dominant trait, so it should need a complex hybridizing and selection to get both dark petals (probably recessive) and green staminoid (probably recessive too). Or a collected plant showing that caracteristics...


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## SlipperKing (Oct 28, 2013)

The plant to the right, is that the base of the plant as well?


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## Paul (Oct 28, 2013)

Yes!


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## Chicago Chad (Oct 28, 2013)

Very cool plant. Very interesting debate. Either way, not matter what it is, I know I want one. Have any surfaced in the US?


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## goldenrose (Oct 28, 2013)

I agree with Chad!
That foliage is something else.


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## NYEric (Oct 28, 2013)

Vey interesting. To me it's obviously a cochlo hybrid. I'm curious how selving proved it was not a hybrid unless 100's of seedings were grown out and they all apppeared identical.


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## Trithor (Oct 28, 2013)

Interesting plant habit, I am intrigued, but not sold as of yet.


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## Fabrice (Oct 28, 2013)

In my opinion, I don't see what could give this kind of red petals and "white-violet" pouch in cochlopetalum crosses.
And I think it's not possible to be another thing than cochlo hybrid if it's an hybrid.
So, even if I don't have enough argument to proove it, I have a feeling that the mother plant is from wild.
The most argument is that we have 3 identical flower from 3 different plants.
Ok, 3 is not enough but we have only that.


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## eggshells (Oct 28, 2013)

Wow, beautiful. I saw a plant of this one in Facebook. It's named as vinicolor or something. So different clonal name but I think similar plant. I cant find the link unfortunately.


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## wonderlen3000 (Oct 28, 2013)

I think it could it be P.victoria-mariae for the following reasons..

- it doesn't have any spots on petals
- the dorsal is typical of victoria-mariae
- the leaf is typical of victoria-mariae with pink/red flushing closer to the base
- the leaf also has faint parallel vine and it's much narrow and longer than its' cousins 
- the pouch color could be just variation


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## wonderlen3000 (Oct 28, 2013)

This typical type of P. victoria-mariae. The color of the pouch can range from pink to pinkish brown to tan and it normally has narrow pouch, but some clones have more bubbly pouch like its' cousins. The degree of white margin on the dorsal can be vary too.


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## SlipperKing (Oct 28, 2013)

My first thought was victoria mariae so I looked up a photo, they are very similar. This clone's dorsal is a bit off from a standard v-mariae but it also is an extreme variant for a cochlo. There are spots on the petals but they are white instead of a dark pigment.
Paph victoria-mariae has a super long inflorescence if this plant falls in this concept then it should have one as well.


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## NYEric (Oct 28, 2013)

VR has almost bars of red and white on the lateral petals, as far as I know,


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