# Why do people still collect?



## paphioboy (Jul 26, 2011)

I recently saw this picture on Facebook:






Original link is here: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...&type=1&ref=notif&notif_t=photo_reply&theater

The picture shows 1200 plants of bellatulum harvested from the wild in Thailand.  Out of that, the collector/nursery owner says he can successfully establish 80% if them. I am curious to know why 'common' species like bellatulum are still being harvested from the wild.. It is not a new discovery, having being entrenched in cultivation for a very long time, and ironically, line-breeding bellatulum is very advanced in Thailand itself (so I think...). So, any ideas why this is so?


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## SlipperFan (Jul 26, 2011)

That means 20% are not only lost from their natural habitat, they are lost forever.


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## cnycharles (Jul 26, 2011)

it's so, because people do anything that they can get away with, whether or not it makes any sense.


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## Rick (Jul 26, 2011)

Could it be a salvage of a timber harvest project (or some other development project)? Could be the forest people just trying to sell anything they can scrounge as the forest supplies less and less of their needs.

As you noted line bred belatulum are readily obtainable in Thailand, and they gotta be pretty cheap by now too.

Plus are there even 1200 species collectors in Thailand that don't already have a have dozen bellatulum?

Pretty amazing. There can't be any $ incentive to send this very commonly cultivated species out of the country.


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## Heather (Jul 26, 2011)

Depressing. 
Especially the commentary on the thread on FB.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jul 26, 2011)

For one thing, bellatulum is a long established species. Collected plants can always be passed on as propagated plants. Why do it? Money...any money. It may not be much, but its still some.


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## Pete (Jul 27, 2011)

maybe to hope to salvage from an area that would otherwise be clear cut? (wishful thinking).. maybe in hopes of finding a new or aberrant color form or variety?


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## SlipperKing (Jul 27, 2011)

Just a bunch of crap


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## Roth (Jul 27, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> The picture shows 1200 plants of bellatulum harvested from the wild in Thailand.  Out of that, the collector/nursery owner says he can successfully establish 80% if them. I am curious to know why 'common' species like bellatulum are still being harvested from the wild.. It is not a new discovery, having being entrenched in cultivation for a very long time, and ironically, line-breeding bellatulum is very advanced in Thailand itself. so, any ideas why this is so?



Very common, in Jatujak there is always a box of a couple thousands bellatulum from the wild around. They come from Burma, never ever from Thailand ( there are still colonies, but the quality is low for the flowers, price more expensive, and they are not as plentiful as in Burma.). There is no advanced line breeding of bellatulum in Thailand at all. F1 at most right now (though some friends are doing further generations).



Rick said:


> Could it be a salvage of a timber harvest project (or some other development project)? Could be the forest people just trying to sell anything they can scrounge as the forest supplies less and less of their needs.
> 
> As you noted line bred belatulum are readily obtainable in Thailand, and they gotta be pretty cheap by now too.
> 
> ...



No, 1000 plants is the minimum order from the collector. Below, impossible to get it. The price is 10THB/plant. You can bargain cheaper for bigger quantities. To get good ones, you have to buy at least 3-5 batches of a thousand each, except if you are lucky. One batch comes from one area, and you have quite a few colonies that are really ugly (4 cm flowers, few spots, narrow petals, pieces of crap...). You have quite a few colonies too with FCC quality ones, and most of the colonies are half half. But the quality in a colony is constant.

Line bred bellatulum are not very common in Thailand (they are really rare in fact, thinking of it... Most of the awarded plants are wild established plants so far, except the album, which is warm tolerant, and one or two strains), bellatulum in Thailand for many people does not survive very long, unlike leucochilum and niveum. If you look carefully, you see many line breeding of niveum, leucos, ang thong, concolor, but exceedingly few of bellatulum. It grows cooler first, and second the plants have a disease in the rhizome that wipes most of them out within a couple of years.



Eric Muehlbauer said:


> For one thing, bellatulum is a long established species. Collected plants can always be passed on as propagated plants. Why do it? Money...any money. It may not be much, but its still some.



A part will surely be exported ( I think most of the batch will die anyway...), the remaining is popular in bloom on the local market. Most of the bellatulum in bloom sold in Jatujak are wild plants established, not seedlings.



Pete said:


> maybe to hope to salvage from an area that would otherwise be clear cut? (wishful thinking).. maybe in hopes of finding a new or aberrant color form or variety?



Nope, they just come from Burma, where they grow by the hundreds of thousands. Definitely, they think of getting albinos, ultra red ones ( there are less than 10 plants all over thailand of the ultra red strain, most likely only 2-3), semialba, pinkish, huge flowers... and do not forget, they cannot line breed those easily if at all... so if you are in Thailand and want a nice one, that's the only way.

Anyway, most are going to die very soon when I look at the photo. The crown is bleached, which means the plants have been stored for few days, and the insects already worked out a bit the crowns. If they are not properly treated, the survival will be very, very low if any.

For the profit, they buy 10THB, usually established with nursery leaves they ll sell anywhere between 70 and 150THB per growth. If they did not have any losses, they would make a huge profit.


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## Kavanaru (Jul 27, 2011)

Why people still collect? simple-- because there are people who still like buying wild collected plants... even here in this forumwe find from time to time comments like: "I bought this plant from an ebay seller in Thailand (with some further comments in th thread indicating that it is possibly collected)" or find some nurseries in Europe or USA with plants which obviously wild collecetd (in the best case, even indidicated as such)...


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## smartie2000 (Jul 27, 2011)

I will probably not try bellatulum anytime soon...they die quickly. I have my doubts that those plants will survive in the photograph. But I maybe wrong...


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## paphioboy (Jul 27, 2011)

Roth said:


> There is no advanced line breeding of bellatulum in Thailand at all. F1 at most right now (though some friends are doing further generations).
> 
> Line bred bellatulum are not very common in Thailand (they are really rare in fact, thinking of it...
> 
> A part will surely be exported ( I think most of the batch will die anyway...), the remaining is popular in bloom on the local market. Most of the bellatulum in bloom sold in Jatujak are wild plants established, not seedlings.



I see.... So does that mean those spectacular bellatulum that some of the Thai growers on this forum have shown us are more likely to be collected than not? That is the same reply I got from the seller. I'm surprised that they have only gotten to F1 generation breeding from seed.. All those gorgeous large blooms with fantastic colours give me the impression that they must have been line bred. So is it the same case with leucochilum and godefroyae also, or have those really grown from seed?


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## Roth (Jul 27, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> I see.... So does that mean those spectacular bellatulum that some of the Thai growers on this forum have shown us are more likely to be collected than not? That is the same reply I got from the seller. I'm surprised that they have only gotten to F1 generation breeding from seed.. All those gorgeous large blooms with fantastic colours give me the impression that they must have been line bred. So is it the same case with leucochilum and godefroyae also, or have those really grown from seed?



Yes, most if not all are wild bellatulums. Some are absolutely spectacular. The best ones were sold at extremely expensive price to Japan before, and they did a lot of line breeding. Nowadays there are less buyers for this kind of things, so... If you see carefully, many niveum, concolor, ang thong, leucochilum, godefroyae have a tag with a number like JOE-437 or MU-279, or YC-52. That's the cross tag. For bellatulum, I have never seen it... well once. You do not see bellatulum flasks available as easily as leucochilum in thailand. They are in fact very rare compared to leucos. And even when I say F1, it is the maximum, and they are not that common.

It existed pure red bellatulum, without dots, but the flower more than 90% covered in blood red (not brown). It existed bellatulum with gold yellow dots, another type of albinistic plant. It existed leucochilum too with 25 cm flower spikes and 10 cm flowers, from the wild (private collection, now I remember the name of the man I visited, Viroon, he died years ago). All of those are long time gone, no progeny, nothing. So that's why too they get wild plants. Even for leucochilum, there are fantastic things bred in Thailand ( a lot of fake ones too, with a small percentage of bellatulum or ang-thong for increase vigor, shape and growth speed), but the best ones cannot compare to what could have been bred with wild plants that existed 20 years ago. So people hope to get plants from a colony as good as that.

For leucochilum and godefroyae, there are many line bred plants around. There are many wild ones too for sale, established, but the buyers usually do not want them ( as foreigners). They still have a pot plant, and a smaller low-grade 'true species' market worldwide as established plants.

Plants like the ones on the picture, if they are grown by a good grower, can look seed grown this winter, spring at the maximum. same for all the leucochilum, thaianum, etc...

By the way, bellatulum ALBUM is very heat tolerant. I know some people grow big plants and bloom it in Bangkok, where the normal ones do not last so long... Albino paphs usually are more warm tolerant than the pigmented ones, it is true too for micranthum album, armeniacum album, wardii album...


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## Shiva (Jul 27, 2011)

Human nature perhaps. One may say if I don't take them, someone else will. And a few bucks that seem trivial to us can go a long way in some asian countries.


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## Erythrone (Jul 27, 2011)

Kavanaru said:


> Why people still collect? simple-- because there are people who still like buying wild collected plants... even here in this forumwe find from time to time comments like: "I bought this plant from an ebay seller in Thailand (with some further comments in th thread indicating that it is possibly collected)" or find some nurseries in Europe or USA with plants which obviously wild collecetd (in the best case, even indidicated as such)...



Very good comment!!!!!


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## NYEric (Jul 28, 2011)

answer - money.


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## gonewild (Jul 28, 2011)

Why do people still fish?
Because it is something the like to do.


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## paphioboy (Jul 28, 2011)

gonewild said:


> Why do people still fish?
> Because it is something the like to do.



Erm, I don't think that's an appropriate comparison because you are not fishing endangered species....


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## gonewild (Jul 28, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> Erm, I don't think that's an appropriate comparison because you are not fishing endangered species....



Actually certain species of rock fish here on the California coast are protected endangered species and when you catch one you must release it. They always die but it does not stop anyone from fishing.

The point is that not everything people do is for money or to survive. Some collectors like to collect just because that is what they want to do. You might get pleasure from having orchids growing in your house and the other guy might get his from hunting and collecting plants in the forest.


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## Rick (Jul 28, 2011)

gonewild said:


> Actually certain species of rock fish here on the California coast are protected endangered species and when you catch one you must release it. They always die but it does not stop anyone from fishing.
> 
> The point is that not everything people do is for money or to survive. Some collectors like to collect just because that is what they want to do. You might get pleasure from having orchids growing in your house and the other guy might get his from hunting and collecting plants in the forest.



I think it's pretty amazing that given the thousands of flowering plant species (including non orchid), and hundreds of acres in Asia dedicated to producing meristem phals, vandas, dendrobium hybrids, that there are that many species paph aficionados throwing away apparently millions of collected paphs every year. 

In comparison to rock fish fishermen, that would probably translate to 100 Thai paph species growers for every fishermen. Trashing a species paph plant must be equivalent to smoking a pack of cigarettes at the scale we are seeing here.

I realize that the US population is pretty small compared to Asian countries, but maybe paph trashing is a substitute for lack of TV's to stare at.

I guess something else that is different in culture is that US has little regard for its own native species, and everyone prefers exotics and cultivars. Most American orchid growers could care less about native orchids. But apparently in Thailand they can't get enough of their own plants and will strip mine the forests for a short term fix of a simple paph species.

World is crazy.


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## NYEric (Jul 29, 2011)

Rick said:


> I guess something else that is different in culture is that US has little regard for its own native species, and everyone prefers exotics and cultivars. Most American orchid growers could care less about native orchids.


I'm not sure I entirely agree with that. Although the stress to collect them is lessened by the variety of alternative plants to grow/decorate with here; I think that U.S. native orchid populations have diminished or are at such a distance from living areas that we dont collect them. Plus I'm sure the need to preserve them in the wild is fairly understood here.


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## cnycharles (Jul 29, 2011)

well, maybe they aren't that crazy... paphs to thais may be like dandelions and goldenrod to us (though I know dandelions aren't native to here). if you could make a few bucks by digging up and selling a bunch of goldenrod, you probably would because they are everywhere. I say goldenrod because I've heard that they are used in foreign countries in flower arranging, and i'll bet a florist here wouldn't get caught dead using goldenrod in an arrangement and trying to sell it... but they would use a paph blossom even a 'common' one like paph bellatulum. they are there, easy access, and someone will buy them. in another way of being lazy, if someone doesn't want to do a trade, they can go in the woods and dig up common plants. also maybe they can't afford a tv to watch so they buy common native plants and hope they flower. at least they aren't spraying weed killer and chopping them down with front deck mowers


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## NYEric (Jul 29, 2011)

I dont believe that paph bellatulum grow like a version of Asian dandelions!


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## Roth (Jul 29, 2011)

NYEric said:


> I dont believe that paph bellatulum grow like a version of Asian dandelions!



Honestly, they really do. For the 17 years I have been to Thailand, I always have seen one or more boxes of fresh bellatulum. I have seen as well at the same time some more boxes in less good condition, old, and some boxes dead ( quite a few). Until a few years the price was by kilogram, not by plant. 300-500THB/kg. Now they price by plant usually (though some people still offer by kg but usually the runts from the 'priced per plant' box).

Last month, there were about 10 rice bags as well of a reddish leafed bulbophyllum. I talk about the 60-80L bags. They were at the back of a pickup, was very impressive. I doubt there are customers for all of them anyway. But for paph bellatulum, they are really common in Burma, there are as well some massive colonies in Laos, and few colonies in Thailand (never been that many in Thailand anyway compared to Burma). Now, the same applies to the US dandelions, if you collect so much for so many years, at the end the dandelions will be extinct.


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## NYEric (Jul 29, 2011)

OK, must get some bellatulums then. Thanx.


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## Dokmai Garden (Jul 29, 2011)

Thailand has great laws but neither the people nor the police respects them. Salvation picking is illegal but we (The Orchid Ark) try to change that, meanwhile large-scale illegal collecting, illegal land encroachment and illegal logging is big business. If you are truly upset and wish to help saving Southeast Asian orchids: http://www.dokmaigarden.co.th/orchidark.php

Cheers, Eric


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## paphioboy (Jul 29, 2011)

Rick said:


> I realize that the US population is pretty small compared to Asian countries, but maybe paph trashing is a substitute for lack of TV's to stare at.



:rollhappy: Hey, we're not THAT backward.... oke: oke:


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## paphioboy (Jul 29, 2011)

Ok. I'm going to post pics of 'responsible collecting' vs. collecting for selling and see what you guys think....

'Responsible collecting', like this guy here, who goes into the jungle close to his home and brings back various plants for his own collection. Personally, I think some of the pieces he harvests can be considered specimen plants already. IMHO responsible collecting means getting a bulb or two, not a whole bunch :
http://orkidland.blogspot.com/2011/07/hasil-buruan-1.html
http://orkidland.blogspot.com/2011/07/hasil-buruan-2.html

And there's this guy here:
https://www.facebook.com/nazri.yusoff
I have to host his pictures on my photobucket account to upload them here. Original pictures can be found in his Facebook album, all pictures belong to him:
Bulbos, lots and lots of bulbos (and a dendrochilum, I believe):





































Coelogyne pandurata:








Coelogyne rochussenii:




Dendrobium:


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## paphioboy (Jul 29, 2011)

Dendrobium lamellatum, I think..





All his plants are for sale to whoever interested and they sell like hot cakes....


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## Andrew (Jul 29, 2011)

NYEric said:


> I'm not sure I entirely agree with that. Although the stress to collect them is lessened by the variety of alternative plants to grow/decorate with here; I think that U.S. native orchid populations have diminished or are at such a distance from living areas that we dont collect them. Plus I'm sure the need to preserve them in the wild is fairly understood here.



I don't know what the current state of play in the US is but I recall 10 years ago there was discussion on various forums about Lowes selling wild collected Cyp's, not to mention various public outings in the carnivorous plant community about a commercial nursery selling illegally collected flytraps. Places like Australia and Europe don't exactly have clean hands either. Sure there's more public condemnation in the west for illegal and unsustainable wild collection but I find it difficult to judge people in poorer countries too harshly for wild harvesting plants when people in wealthier countries haven't got their own backyards in order.


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## Roth (Jul 29, 2011)

Andrew said:


> Places like Australia and Europe don't exactly have clean hands either. Sure there's more public condemnation in the west for illegal and unsustainable wild collection but I find it difficult to judge people in poorer countries too harshly for wild harvesting plants when people in wealthier countries haven't got their own backyards in order.



That's true on one side, but actually, the people who collect in those poorer countries usually have more money than the average US salary per month, and maybe even than yours ( the collector of gigantifolium and few others things in Sulawesii as an example earns about 5000USD a month tax free, the helenae collector here in Vietnam earned when it was still plentiful about 3000USD a month ( with plants at 15US/kg... make the calculation on how many kilos per month) and I know exactly what I am talking about.


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## paphioboy (Jul 29, 2011)

Roth said:


> That's true on one side, but actually, the people who collect in those poorer countries usually have more money than the average US salary per month, and maybe even than yours ( the collector of gigantifolium and few others things in Sulawesii as an example earns about 5000USD a month tax free, the helenae collector here in Vietnam earned when it was still plentiful about 3000USD a month ( with plants at 15US/kg... make the calculation on how many kilos per month) and I know exactly what I am talking about.



 And where are all these plants now..? Dead or alive?


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## Rick (Jul 29, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> Dendrobium lamellatum, I think..
> [IMG]http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb239/paphioboy/267772_2236153904870_1278652951_2706487_7313987_n.jpg
> 
> All his plants are for sale to whoever interested and they sell like hot cakes....



And not a single flower in all these thousands of plants. That means that all the people buying these plants have expectations of growing these plants long term to flowering. Or do they just buy them for foliage?

If the mortality rate is as high as Roth says, then where is the satisfaction of shelling out the cash for a handful of foliage that gets thrown in the trash a month later?

I realize we all have killed our share of plants, but if I lost 99% of everything I purchased before seeing a single flower, I'd probably not get a lot of satisfaction out of this hobby. Not everyone can be that bad a grower over there.


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## Roth (Jul 29, 2011)

Rick said:


> And not a single flower in all these thousands of plants. That means that all the people buying these plants have expectations of growing these plants long term to flowering. Or do they just buy them for foliage?
> 
> If the mortality rate is as high as Roth says, then where is the satisfaction of shelling out the cash for a handful of foliage that gets thrown in the trash a month later?
> 
> I realize we all have killed our share of plants, but if I lost 99% of everything I purchased before seeing a single flower, I'd probably not get a lot of satisfaction out of this hobby. Not everyone can be that bad a grower over there.



No, the plants from malaysia in the facebook are not even from the collector, they are from the reseller. Coelogyne pandurata minimum order is 200-300 plants...


The guy who posted those photos on facebook does not hope to bloom any single plant. He offers them by batches of 10 or 5, to smaller sellers, who will make the 'business' and 'profit' and resell by 1-2-3 plants to hobbyists. Most of those plants will die pretty quickly anyway, therefore the business and profit must be carried out very quickly, resell/buy/resell/buy until the plants are dead. That's how the helenae ended up by kilogram too, most died during this game buy many/resell with profit to 5 people, who buy a lot, resell with a profit to 50 people who buy quite a few, resell with a profit to 500 street sellers, who buy few and sell one by one to 50000 people. That's their thinking. The truth is really different, but that's the scheme they hope for. The first 1-2 steps are always successful, but at the next stages, there are many losses, not so many customers (as an example, the 5 wholesaler hope to sell to 10 customers, but the 10 customers are the same for each wholesaler, so this means that it is not 5 wholesalers x 10 customers = 50 customers and the batch sold, it means 5 wholesalers, the fastest will sell to 4 customers, second one 4 others, third one 2, and the last 2 wholesalers that time do not sell, and loose money. The total customers is therefore 10 overall for those 5 wholesalers, and the stocks available are 5x the maximal quantity that can be sold. However, each wholesaler hopes to catch all the customers, and they fight for that. If they loose, they try again with another batch or another species. That's how it works. Flowers are useless for this trade.


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## paphioboy (Jul 29, 2011)

Rick said:


> And not a single flower in all these thousands of plants. That means that all the people buying these plants have expectations of growing these plants long term to flowering. Or do they just buy them for foliage?
> .



As roth said.... That is true. The 'good thing' is that most of the customers are orchid enthusiasts, hence probably have experience in keeping plants in this condition alive and hope to rebloom them. Some of these plants are often seen for sale during flower shows, mounted on a piece of wood with a pad of sphag, selling for ridiculous prices to the general public, advertised as 'wild orchid' and with a sample pic of the flower attached. The unfortunate thing is that even if they (experienced enthusiasts) manage to rebloom them, not many people will send seed for flasking as gathering wild plants is so much easier and cheaper (less time to blooming, obviously).. That being said, IMHO collecting wild plants is one way to 'discover' new species/varieties...


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## gonewild (Jul 29, 2011)

Native North American species are smuggled (exported illegally) to other countries all the time and sold for big money. Just check what minnows from the bait shop sell fro in [email protected]
Only imagine what an endangered Pup fish goes for.

As an American speaking about Americans I say we the people are about as conveniently blind as can be. And add arrogant for condemning other societies for doing what we have always done and continue to do.

People collect things for their own enjoyment or to earn money for only one reason.... because they want to.

It's just what the human species is.


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## Rick (Jul 29, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> As roth said.... That is true. The 'good thing' is that most of the customers are orchid enthusiasts, hence probably have experience in keeping plants in this condition alive and hope to rebloom them. Some of these plants are often seen for sale during flower shows, mounted on a piece of wood with a pad of sphag, selling for ridiculous prices to the general public, advertised as 'wild orchid' and with a sample pic of the flower attached. The unfortunate thing is that even if they (experienced enthusiasts) manage to rebloom them, not many people will send seed for flasking as gathering wild plants is so much easier and cheaper (less time to blooming, obviously).. That being said, IMHO collecting wild plants is one way to 'discover' new species/varieties...



Aren't you contradicting Roth's notion that 99% of these collected plants will die without blooming?

What you are describing Paphioboy is not that different from the US, when whatever fraction of plants survive to blooming or reblooming very few are bred and flasked.

If I get the gist of Roth's math, then virtually all plants will die before blooming at the individual plant retail level, but those end of pipe, one plant per person retail customers don't care if it dies before it blooms. They just want to take a chance that it might survive to blooming. Orchid lottery! I know every culture accepts different levels of risk for different things, but doesn't really seem usual to waste money on a sure loss.


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## valenzino (Jul 29, 2011)

Rick said:


> Aren't you contradicting Roth's notion that 99% of these collected plants will die without blooming?
> 
> What you are describing Paphioboy is not that different from the US, when whatever fraction of plants survive to blooming or reblooming very few are bred and flasked.
> 
> If I get the gist of Roth's math, then virtually all plants will die before blooming at the individual plant retail level, but those end of pipe, one plant per person retail customers don't care if it dies before it blooms. They just want to take a chance that it might survive to blooming. Orchid lottery! I know every culture accepts different levels of risk for different things, but doesn't really seem usual to waste money on a sure loss.



Orchid "fever" usually dont works on a "rational" way...also for profesionals sometimes..."it isn't just a dream"?


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## Rick (Jul 29, 2011)

gonewild said:


> Native North American species are smuggled (exported illegally) to other countries all the time and sold for big money. Just check what minnows from the bait shop sell fro in [email protected]
> Only imagine what an endangered Pup fish goes for.
> 
> As an American speaking about Americans I say we the people are about as conveniently blind as can be. And add arrogant for condemning other societies for doing what we have always done and continue to do.
> ...



Now I've been around the aquarium trade for a long time. Those endangered pupfish are easy as heck to breed in captivity. It's alot cheaper to breed these guys in your spare bedroom tank than to spend the gas money to drive out to the middle of nowhere to trespass somebodies huge ass ranch or evade a park ranger and go seining for them. 

Tennessee has more freshwater fish species than anywhere in the nation, and many of the most prized for potential aquarium fish. The prettiest stuff is not endangered, and there are comercial (and underground) propagators for anything that's worthwhile. Keeping in touch with local State Natural Heritage personel, the "good stuff" is not getting poached in any significant amounts that they can measure. However, its not that rare for the Department of Transportation or a developer to buldoze over a prime spot to put in a highway or a subdivision. Farming and timbering operations take a heavy toll to this date in TN. This is also were most of the native orchids go too. Some people get legitamate salvage permits but some don't get them (personally I don't think you should have to get a permit to save something that's going to be plowed under anyway).

Recently 3 or so species of native orchids showed up (from highway salvage) where brought into a local lawn and garden show, and our local society. Maybe 100 plants total (definitely not enough to be wieghed in Kg). They were potted and fairly healthy, not in bloom, but even with pictures of the blooms, only about 10% of the plants sold at $5. each. It was hard to give them away. These weren't big showy Cyps, but I didn't even see any interest as conservation plants.

I'm not saying the trade in US Natives is non existent, but it pales in comparison to the above pics.


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## gonewild (Jul 29, 2011)

Rick said:


> I'm not saying the trade in US Natives is non existent, but it pales in comparison to the above pics.



I don't think it does. I think what pales is the lack of pictures published by the underground dealers in the USA and EU. 

It may be easier to breed an endangered pupfish but the possession of them in your home is illegal and if you are caught the fine could include forfeiture of your home. So there is a benefit to take them from the wild, clandestinely.


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## paphioboy (Jul 29, 2011)

Rick said:


> Aren't you contradicting Roth's notion that 99% of these collected plants will die without blooming?



Sorry, what I said refers to bulbos and other pseudobulbous species. I think roth refers to paph cases, exclusively. These establish very well just tied to a log and watered daily (even if completely leafless), provided the rhizome is not damaged.


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## Roth (Jul 29, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> Sorry, what I said refers to bulbos and other pseudobulbous species. I think roth refers to paph cases, exclusively. These establish very well just tied to a log and watered daily (even if completely leafless), provided the rhizome is not damaged.



Honestly it depends what.... I have seen a lot of bulbos from Irian Jaya that were on sale in Thailand, they will be dead within days, as they are cold growing. Some species never estaqblish ( though I agree pretty much everything on the photos is not that difficult), the coelogyne especially are extremely difficult to establish if they are not collected at the exact, proper time, and repotted right away. If you get them with a small new growth starting, they are gone, because the old roots will die, and the new growth will not root until it is way big. If you get them when the growth is big, and ready to root, the new growth is still soft and can rot in the bag. Most of those plants anyway will regress to seedling/small plant stage before eventually catching up...


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## Bolero (Jul 31, 2011)

Yes much the same as people who want wild caught tropical fish......there is some kind of prestige in having wild collected living things.

I don't understand it and most of us probably never will really comprehend the mentality behind it. The single most selfish thing I know of (worse than the GFC if you ask me).


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## John M (Jul 31, 2011)

gonewild said:


> Native North American species are smuggled (exported illegally) to other countries all the time and sold for big money. Just check what minnows from the bait shop sell fro in [email protected]
> Only imagine what an endangered Pup fish goes for.



Are you serious? I've never heard of this. People buy minnows as exotics? What's a Pup fish? Can you tell us more?


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## paphioboy (Jul 31, 2011)

John M said:


> Are you serious? I've never heard of this. People buy minnows as exotics? What's a Pup fish? Can you tell us more?



Pupfish are killifish/rainbowfish which give birth to live young, I think...


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## Rick (Jul 31, 2011)

John M said:


> Are you serious? I've never heard of this. People buy minnows as exotics? What's a Pup fish? Can you tell us more?




There's a bunch of "pupfish" (related to kilifish / Fundulus) Genus Cyprinodon. Some are isolated to single sink holes in the desert southwest. Some have much wider ranges including brackish to saline conditions through out the South/ Southeast US and into the Caribbean Islands. Maybe extending up most of the Eastern seaboard. We actually use the most common species, Cyprinodon variagatus, in our lab to conduct salt water toxicity tests. They are very easy to culture in both fresh and salt water.

I don't know how many different species there are, but they are superficially similar. The biggest species may be about the size of a US quarter, and the smaller species maybe the size of a US nickel at maturity. Females are dull brown, Breeding males in various shades of metalic blue, green, and maybe some red and yellow highlights. You can actually transport the eggs in damp paper towels (no standing water) and hatch them out after several days without water. 

One time I had a breeding group collected from Turks Caicos. They looked like pigmy versions of the common variagatus. I had them in 33 ppt salt water, but I needed the tank for something else, moved them out of the tank, filled it w/chlorinated tap water for a day, drained and filled with dechlorinated water for the next group of fish I was going to use the tank for.
Over the course of a week, I ended up with about 50 baby pupfish hatching from the gravel in the bottom of the tank! Tough buggers!

Any way some of the rarest are the isolated desert species (famous for heat tolerance). A population of Desert pupfish (Cyprinodon diablo) is found in Death Valley National Park. A couple of other endangered species are found in isolated sinkhole systems in Nevada, Arizona, and N Mexico. They tend to be on private ranch land in out of the way remote areas. I know at one time the Nature Conservancy had bought some cooperative easements around the sinkholes. Several public aquariums had started an SSP (Species Survival Program) with them to artificially propagate.

I was involved with a similar SSP for Lake Victorian Cichlids at the same time as other zoo/aquariums were working with the native species. The Lake Victorian Cichlid SSP produced so many fish (some of which extinct in the wild) we ended up dumping into the retail aquarium trade for maintaining tank space. I don't know if the other SSP's were equally successful since I have left the zoo biz.

I believe there there are still national and international Cichlid and Killifish associations. When I was active in aquaria the German's and Japanese were particularly interested in these fishes (not unlike orchids). 

Killifish are really good for international trade since you can transport eggs in damp moss or paper towels. Most species live great at room temperature, in small tanks with no filtration.


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## gonewild (Aug 1, 2011)

John M said:


> Are you serious? I've never heard of this. People buy minnows as exotics? What's a Pup fish? Can you tell us more?



Yes serious. 
Pup fish are defined above but I only used them as an example of any rare species.
Every Continent has unique endemic species and those species are "Exotic" to other Continents. Just like "we" like "Exotics" from foreign lands people from those places like our species which are exotic to them.

If you put simple bait minnows in an aquarium and look at them with the eyes of appreciation (as opposed to on a hook) they are beautiful creatures. 

Fish, lizards, snakes, salamanders, birds, spiders, beetles, plants..... does not matter what, there are groups of people that have interest in collecting them. 

Some people buy specimens for their collections and some people collect from nature. Is it right or wrong either way? My guess is that every member of Slippertalk would collect wild orchids if they grew commonly in all the forests and ditches.

What is more rare in actual population numbers Dandelions or Epidendriums? I bet Dandelions are under a much greater threat of extinction.

The original point I think of this thread was to question why people would need or want to collect wild plants. I still say it is because the want to, well actually "want" may not be the correct word. The Human species by design is a "harvester".... seek, find, collect, consume..... do it again and again and again and prosper as a Homo sapiens.


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## NYEric (Aug 1, 2011)

gonewild said:


> The point is that not everything people do is for money or to survive. Some collectors like to collect just because that is what they want to do. You might get pleasure from having orchids growing in your house and the other guy might get his from hunting and collecting plants in the forest.



So you're saying these collectors are just giving the plants away!? 
I dont think so. Yes I agree, our species is the consumer, unfortunately, sometimes at the cost of other entire species.


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## gonewild (Aug 1, 2011)

NYEric said:


> So you're saying these collectors are just giving the plants away!?
> I dont think so.



No I'm not saying the collectors are giving plants away. I'm saying they are choosing to collect the plants because "they want to". They may have many reasons why they want to. Maybe some only for the money but others because it is a way to make money doing something they enjoy. Maybe it is a family heritage? Maybe they like getting out in the wild away from the kids? Maybe they like the thrill of seeing how big a pile they can find? 

The point is they have a choice and they choose to do it because they want to do it. 



> Yes I agree, our species is the consumer, unfortunately, sometimes at the cost of other entire species.



All species are consumers, we are not unique from that act. How we are unique is that we care about the long term existence of other species. 
Can you name any other species that cares about the survival of another species? And while you are trying to think of one consider what % of the human species actually does care. 

Block the fresh water supply to New York City to protect an endangered species upstream and how many of your neighbors are going to be willing to watch their children die to protect the other species?

And I actually said that humans are "harvestors". There is a difference between a "harvestor" and a "consumer".


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## paphioboy (Aug 1, 2011)

gonewild said:


> How we are unique is that we care about the long term existence of other species.



Do we, really? If we truly did, there wouldn't be any bulldozing down forests for construction, golf courses etc.. but I get your point. Sometimes its a question of necessity, but not in all circumstances...


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## gonewild (Aug 1, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> Do we, really?



Really? No not really.
Only when it is convenient for what we want do we care about other species.



> If we truly did, there wouldn't be any bulldozing down forests for construction, golf courses etc.. but I get your point.



If humans truly cared we would have always cared. We would have never done to the earth what we did. 

[/QUOTE]Sometimes its a question of necessity, but not in all circumstances...[/QUOTE]

Yes, but what determines necessity?
Who sets that boundary for each species?
Should that be done by committee?

How many readers here don't want to be able to go out and collect an orchid to bring home to care for and enjoy?


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Aug 1, 2011)

I think the original point of the thread was not so much about why people collect, but why people collect species that are already easily available through other means.


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## NYEric (Aug 5, 2011)

gonewild said:


> How many readers here don't want to be able to go out and collect an orchid to bring home to care for and enjoy?





paphioboy said:


> I recently saw this picture on Facebook:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hell of a big home one would have to be in..


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## gonewild (Aug 5, 2011)

NYEric said:


> Hell of a big home one would have to be in..



Or a lot of little homes.
Or how about access for the handicap? You know all those old people that can't get to the forest anymore and live on a fixed income? They want one too.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Aug 5, 2011)

I have to admit, on a small level, there is a certain degree of pleasure in being able to collect a plant from the wild. The other day we went upstate for a wedding. Walking around the synagogue in Woodstock, my son and I saw colonies of sweetfern (Comptonia peregrina) everywhere. I love that shrub, so I took 2 or 3 runners for my places in the city and LI. Given the hundreds of plants we saw, that was nothing. However, I would never consider taking more than that...and had there only been a few plants, I wouldn't have taken any.


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## paphioboy (Aug 8, 2011)

Another picture... This time hirsutissimum in Vietnam. Found this on a Vietnamese forum:
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff244/GIANG_2005/IMG_2872.jpg


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## Roth (Aug 8, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> Another picture... This time hirsutissimum in Vietnam. Found this on a Vietnamese forum:
> http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff244/GIANG_2005/IMG_2872.jpg



About half a rice bag on the photo. That's esquirolei by the way. hirsutissimum is very rare now, but it is possible to get sometimes from the extreme west. 

They will be sold for the Vietnamese or Chinese new year in spike for those, sure... Price of all the plants on the photo, about 50USD. ( 1.000.000VND)


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## John Boy (Aug 8, 2011)

It's amazing how uniformly these clumps have grown, almost as if these came out of a nursery, even (all) the leafs look great.


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## Roth (Aug 8, 2011)

John Boy said:


> It's amazing how uniformly these clumps have grown, almost as if these came out of a nursery, even (all) the leafs look great.



That's why when people say they never bought a wild plant, in fact they don't know. If they are collected at the right time, those esquirolei will root immediately, and have a nice root system in no time. Then most people will not be able to know if they are precultivated or art propagated.


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## NYEric (Aug 8, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff244/GIANG_2005/IMG_2872.jpg


 so not fair...


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## troy (May 11, 2016)

This is cause from lacque of intellegance!!!


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