# variegation on SH phrag



## Eric Muehlbauer (Apr 8, 2007)

Well, this was one of the very few phrags I have had success with in SH. But, as you can see in the photo, its losing color on the new growth..(ignore the pale bottom leaf, I expect old leaves to turn yellow). It actually looks attractive, but I doubt its a sign of health...I have switched to only watering with fertilizer solution (MSU, 1/2 tsp/gal), with a dose of epsom salt solution about 3-4 weeks ago. Any ideas? Thanks, Eric


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## lienluu (Apr 8, 2007)

Hey Eric,

When I tried S/H, i found that Phrags were the hardest to switch over and did the worst for me. That came to me as quite a surprise. In the end, I gave up as the results were just awful.

By the way, I resized your image for you, I hope you don't mind. The one you had posted was huge and also 1.5MB!

Lien


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## dave b (Apr 8, 2007)

Prior to switching to fertilizer water only, how often did you fertilize? It looks like nutrient deficiencies, perhaps more than just Nitrogen. Also, how long has this phrag been in SH? I guess im asking so many questions to just gather info in general. There is still a lot of varying opinions/experiences on using SH, and as im trying it on many of my plants (ivy, phal, phrag, oncidium), i like gathering info as i go along.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Apr 8, 2007)

Thanks for adjusting the picture, Lien....I had set it at a lower size but it didn't go through that way...I am definitely not thrilled with SH overall....I doubt I will continue to use it. My most successful SH plants have something wrong...an ODA that has blotchy leaves (just sent off for virus testing) and a Phal schilleriana that has loads of roots but hasn't done any top growth since going into SH. This phrag went into SH in June...as I said, its one of the few phrags (one of only 2) that appreciate SH. It actually did better before, when it got fertilizer once a week, and was topped off by plain water the other days. When I posted my SH comments a few weeks back, regardling my less than spectacular experience, it was the general advice to top off SH plants with fertilizer solution every time I topped off, so I tried that. This has gotten worse, the others are the same. I use MSU fertilizer, 13-3-15, 1/2 tsp/gal. 75ppm N according to the label. Take care, Eric


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## gonewild (Apr 8, 2007)

What size container is the plant in?
The holes look rather close to the bottom in the picture.
What size of Leca is that it looks very coarse with a lot of air space.
1/2 tsp msu per gallon is very weak in my opinion.


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## dave b (Apr 8, 2007)

Oh ya, good re-use of the water bottle. Ive done the same with a couple of mine.


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## gonewild (Apr 9, 2007)

It looks like low nutrient level in strong light conditions to me.
the plant is running out of reserves.


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## PHRAG (Apr 9, 2007)

I am going to have to agree with Lance on this one. I had a similiar looking ailment killing one or two of my orchids a while back. Lance suggested I rethink my fertilizing strategy. After reading my bottle of liquid MSU concentrate a little more closely, I found the problem.

I wasn't using enough fertilizer per gallon. I had been using about the same as you Eric, 1 teaspoon every other time I watered. This equated to about 50 ppm. I have since started using 4 teaspoons per gallon, or 150+ ppm according to the label. In just two weeks, things are noticeably greener, and new roots/leaves/growths are springing up everywhere. My Mexipedium has had a tiny new growth about a fourth of an inch tall for months now. After upping the amount of fertilizer, it sprouted by triple seemingly overnight. No other changes in my growing area have been made.


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## NYEric (Apr 9, 2007)

Eric, I found the ones I got from you in need of a cleaning and more water. I'll post the photos of their progress later. eric.


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## likespaphs (Apr 9, 2007)

PHRAG said:


> ...This equated to about 50 ppm. I have since started using 4 teaspoons per gallon, or 150+ ppm according to the label.....



dude. how did i not see that when i read the label? perhaps i skimmed instead of scanned...
i love knowing ppm's! does that make me weird?


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## Carol (Apr 9, 2007)

All of my phrags are in s/h, a total of 9, and I fertilize with MSU for RO. All are doing wonderfully and even the Phrag Schroderae 'Claire' AM/AOS, the shy bloomer, is in spike after not spiking for 3 years. I found that I have to use 1/2 tsp per gallon instead of 3/4 tsp per gallon as with the paphs, otherwise I get leaf tip burn. Here is a list of the ones that bloomed for me this year:

Phrag Eric Young
Prag Cape Sunset, still in bloom
Phrag St. Peter, in spike for the 1st time
Phrag Schroderae 'Claire', in spike
Phrag Rosalie Dixler 'Beechview' AM/AOS
Phrag bessae, in spik for the 1st time
Phrag Ashley Wilkes


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## Cinderella (Apr 9, 2007)

Gosh that is a huge differential, between 1/2 tsp per gallon and 4 tsp per gallon. Howz a girl know what to do?


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## NYEric (Apr 9, 2007)

Eric, here are 2 of the Phrags I got from you, Thanx again. After cleaning to remove soil and scale from deep inside leaves I transferred one to a mix of coconut chips, [it's amazing what that spells if you leave off a letter!:evil: ] diatomite, bark, CHC, and pellets, the otheris in just coconut chips. you can see the progress of the new growths. I think the increased moisture is helping.


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## NYEric (Apr 9, 2007)

BTW I hardly fertilize at all, and always w/ a reduced solution.


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## gonewild (Apr 9, 2007)

Cinderella said:


> Gosh that is a huge differential, between 1/2 tsp per gallon and 4 tsp per gallon. Howz a girl know what to do?



Liquid fertilizer vs. Dry fertilizer
The liquid MSU fertilizer is not as concentrated as the dry when you buy it.

John said 4 tsp per gallon using the liquid MSU fertilizer.
One tsp per gallon of dry MSU fertilizer will give about the same strength.


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## gonewild (Apr 9, 2007)

Carol said:


> I found that I have to use 1/2 tsp per gallon instead of 3/4 tsp per gallon as with the paphs, otherwise I get leaf tip burn.



How often to you water your plants?
Do you fertilize every time you water?
What media are they planted in?
How much light to your plants get?


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## gonewild (Apr 9, 2007)

NYEric said:


> BTW I hardly fertilize at all, and always w/ a reduced solution.



Your organic mix will tend to hold nutrients so a reduced solution will be sufficient to maintain the needed nutrient level as compared to Leca.


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## NYEric (Apr 9, 2007)

I still dont see how people can believe, one single media, baked clay pellets for example, can be as good as a mixed media when in nature you find plants growing on rocks, w/ earth, plant materials, moss, etc.


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## Candace (Apr 9, 2007)

I don't know if leca is "as good", I guess that's a debate for a new thread. What it comes down to is what medium allows best growth and flowering in many times, an unnatural environment(indoors etc.). I tried many mediums before leca. I've used many types of bark mixes, spag., coco chips, coir and mixtures of all of them. None of them worked well for me. Or should I say my plants? I grow mainly in a greenhouse and these "natural" organic mediums didn't work with my schedule or for my plants needs. Leca has made a hobby enjoyable rather than a fight. I really think it's a combination of what works for your orchids and your watering/fertilizer schedule.


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## gonewild (Apr 9, 2007)

NYEric said:


> I still dont see how people can believe, one single media, baked clay pellets for example, can be as good as a mixed media when in nature you find plants growing on rocks, w/ earth, plant materials, moss, etc.



Great question.

What the media is made out of is of no concern to the plants. What concerns the plant is that it get the proper moisture and nutrients from it's roots.

I choose to use clay pellets as a media because it is inert. I know exactly what nutrients are in it at all times. It does not decompose so the moisture holding capacity and air space remain constant for the duration of the potting. It is almost impossible to over water plants growing in clay pellets. I like the nutrient solutions applied often to the plant foliage as well as the roots, clay pellets accept this volume of water. Clay pellets are clean, no pieces of organic debris floating in my trays or clogging up a pump. No organic crumbs on the carpet!

If I were to choose a single media that is *most* natural for growing orchids it would be sphagnum. Almost all orchids growing in nature have moss around their roots to some degree. But it is not simple to grow in straight moss because of decomposition.

If I were going to grow in an organic mix I would mix of CHC (1/2") and pumice.

Why do you mix so many different ingredients into your media?


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## Candace (Apr 9, 2007)

Ditto what Lance said. All except the CHC. Hated it.


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## NYEric (Apr 9, 2007)

gonewild said:


> No organic crumbs on the carpet!


No carpet for me, inlaid wood tiles to ruin, next I'll use gilded Corintian Marble! :rollhappy: 


gonewild said:


> If I were going to grow in an organic mix I would mix of CHC (1/2") and pumice.


How is that an organic mix? 


gonewild said:


> Why do you mix so many different ingredients into your media?


I'm giving the plants a chance to grow into whichever they like. If it roots into the leca type stuff or the CHC it likes to dry off, if it grows into the diatomite or coconut chips it likes it moist but at least it has variety,


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## gonewild (Apr 9, 2007)

NYEric said:


> No carpet for me, inlaid wood tiles to ruin, next I'll use gilded Corintian Marble! :rollhappy:



My comment would be way to controversial.  



> How is that an organic mix?


Any mix that contains organic material is organic.



> I'm giving the plants a chance to grow into whichever they like. If it roots into the leca type stuff or the CHC it likes to dry off, if it grows into the diatomite or coconut chips it likes it moist but at least it has variety,



Makes sense. But...
You are also forcing the plant to make a choice. Plants think slow when it comes to choices. First they have to evaluate all their choices and then try to get around the ones they hate, to get to the ones they love. Wouldn't it be better to decide which one they love and give them a pot full of the ideal component?

Also if there are components that they don't like in the pot won't that reduce the volume of area in the pots where roots will grow?

Plant roots do have some difficulty with bridging changes in the soil type/texture. For some reason a change in soil type can often act as a block wall to roots, that is why roots suddenly take a turn and go a different direction.

I'm not saying a blended mix is wrong or not good to use. I just feel that the mix content is more for the benefit of the grower. Mixes tend to get developed to fit the growers demands or schedule rather than the plants.
But that is OK, because we are the bosses, or are we?


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## gonewild (Apr 9, 2007)

Candace said:


> Ditto what Lance said. All except the CHC. Hated it.



Well, I should note that I have never used CHC here in the states. I prepared my own from coconuts that grew on our own trees in Peru. They never touched salt water. I think some of the coconut products sold now are not selected and prepared correctly for horticulture use. You need to find a dependable brand low in sodium.
But that is another reason why I use leca!


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## NYEric (Apr 9, 2007)

for CHC I meant Horticultural charcoal, sorry. i.e. not organic.


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## NYEric (Apr 9, 2007)

gonewild said:


> Makes sense. But...
> You are also forcing the plant to make a choice. Plants think slow when it comes to choices. First they have to evaluate all their choices and then try to get around the ones they hate, to get to the ones they love. Wouldn't it be better to decide which one they love and give them a pot full of the ideal component??


I don't know if there is an ideal that we can have, therefore I do what's natural. 



gonewild said:


> But that is OK, because we are the bosses, or are we?



If we were the bosses Phrag besseae and Paph sanderianum would be lawn plantings. oke:


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## Carol (Apr 9, 2007)

Originally posted by Gonewild:
How often to you water your plants?
Do you fertilize every time you water?
What media are they planted in?
How much light to your plants get?


I use the MSU solution 1/2 tsp. per gallon every time that I water the phrags. My other orchids in s/h receive 3/4 tsp. per gallon solution every time that I water. I generally have to water at least 2x a week, sometimes more. There are so many roots in a few of the pots and those are the ones that I have to water every other day. They are all potted in the original primeagra from First Rays. Ray gave a talk at one of our society meetings, OS of Western PA, a number of years ago. My orchids summer outside on my front steps which is northern exposure in the summer. The ones that are not blooming are under flourescents in my finished basement this time of the year. They will not go outdoors until the end of May if I am lucky. I think one of the keys to establish phrags and paphs in the aggregate is temps above 60 degrees at night. I have oncidiums, a brassia, and a number of phals in the mix also. 
__________________


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## gonewild (Apr 9, 2007)

NYEric said:


> for CHC I meant Horticultural charcoal, sorry. i.e. not organic.



OOps maybe I made an error. Is CHC coconut or charcoal?
I don't use either so maybe I got the abbrev. mixed up.

FYI. In Peru I mixed chopped coconut with charcoal and it worked extremely well. But carbon is really cheap in the jungle because people cook with it. I think it makes a great organic mix additive.

And why is charcoal not organic? All the charcoal I am familiar with comes from trees which would make it very organic.


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## gonewild (Apr 9, 2007)

Carol said:


> I use the MSU solution 1/2 tsp. per gallon every time that I water the phrags. My other orchids in s/h receive 3/4 tsp. per gallon solution every time that I water. I generally have to water at least 2x a week, sometimes more. There are so many roots in a few of the pots and those are the ones that I have to water every other day. They are all potted in the original primeagra from First Rays. Ray gave a talk at one of our society meetings, OS of Western PA, a number of years ago. My orchids summer outside on my front steps which is northern exposure in the summer. The ones that are not blooming are under flourescents in my finished basement this time of the year. They will not go outdoors until the end of May if I am lucky. I think one of the keys to establish phrags and paphs in the aggregate is temps above 60 degrees at night. I have oncidiums, a brassia, and a number of phals in the mix also.
> __________________



Just throwing out ideas....
I'm wondering if your Phrags had a problem with the higher dose because they consumed more water faster and tended to dry out a little more. As Leo suggested in another thread it is when Phrags are a little water deficient that they get tip burn from higher salts. Phrags are water hogs.

I've used up to 3/4 tsp per gallon MSU on my Phrag seedlings and they have no tip burn, but I keep them wet all day long. 14 hrs of light.

I do have some plants separated and growing near a window that don't get as much water, growing more in a traditional s/h manor and misted with pure water several times per day. They get less fertilizer but they did have some leaf tip burn. I increased both the water and fertilizer they get and the leaf tip damage stopped. I think it is water stress influenced by higher salt levels that causes the problem.

So if you can't keep your Phrags wet maybe it is better to keep the fertilizer levels low. But doesn't that mean your plants won't be growing as fast as they could be?


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Apr 9, 2007)

OK....the plant is growing in a former 1 L seltzer bottle, holes up 1.5" from the bottom...I used that container because the roots fit right into it. I'm using Ray's original Prime agra, and the plants are under 4 40wt fluorescent bulbs, near the end where the light is somewhat weaker. The older (not oldest) leaves are the healthiest, not the newest...then again, I'm not used to SH phrags even putting out leaves. While my other SH phrags don't grow too much, they have normally colored foliage. According to the label on my container of MSU (also from Ray), I am giving it the equivalent of 75ppm N in my dilution. My usual phrag medium is bark, mixed with spongerock, chopped NZ sphagnum, and a touch of charcoal. Those plants get watered at least 5 days/ week, whenever the saucers get drained. (Only a few phrags are under lights, the rest are on my windowsills.) Eric- my phrags are always watered heavily, but they really suck out that water! That's why the phrags seemed so dry. Also some of those phrags came from my daughter's room...hotter and drier than the other rooms where I grow phrags...but you don't quibble with a southern exposure! My SH plants get topped off 3 times/week with the fertilizer solution. To be honest, they did better when they were topped off with plain water in between. Overall, I have found that phrags really seem to thrive in bark...they'll take CHC well enough, but really thrive in bark...even old mix. I liked the convenience (and fun) of potting up in SH, but I doubt that I will continue with it...I'll experiment some more with it, but at least for slippers, the traditional media work best. By the way, I recently got some stuff called Dyna-rok....is it the same as Diatomite? Certainly looks like it...Take care, Eric


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## PHRAG (Apr 9, 2007)

The whole point is, what works for some WILL NOT work for everyone. If you asked me to go back to using sphag in my potting mixes, I would kick you in the shin. I hate that crap. But it works for others. 

I have found that my conditions make Prime Agra (the old stuff) the only logical choice. Moss stays damp longer, and with my humidity would be too soggy. I don't even have to water my mounts every day in my growing environment.

I applaud those of you who have found what works for you. I encourage everyone to experiment with mixes until you find out what works. 

As for leaftip burn. I heard this tip on some other forum long ago, and I have no idea if it's true or not. Since I started doing it, I haven't seen one burnt tip, so I am going to keep doing it. Before I fertilize, I make sure to pour some straight R/O water into the pots to get the roots wet. I think the point is to make sure the roots are good and wet before you add any water/fertilizer mix to the pot. Yes, in effect I am watering my orchids twice, and this just isn't feasible for some. But I am going to keep doing it, because it works for me.


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## gonewild (Apr 9, 2007)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> OK....the plant is growing in a former 1 L seltzer bottle, holes up 1.5" from the bottom...I used that container because the roots fit right into it. I'm using Ray's original Prime agra, and the plants are under 4 40wt fluorescent bulbs, near the end where the light is somewhat weaker. The older (not oldest) leaves are the healthiest, not the newest...then again, I'm not used to SH phrags even putting out leaves. While my other SH phrags don't grow too much, they have normally colored foliage. According to the label on my container of MSU (also from Ray), I am giving it the equivalent of 75ppm N in my dilution. My usual phrag medium is bark, mixed with spongerock, chopped NZ sphagnum, and a touch of charcoal. Those plants get watered at least 5 days/ week, whenever the saucers get drained. (Only a few phrags are under lights, the rest are on my windowsills.) Eric- my phrags are always watered heavily, but they really suck out that water! That's why the phrags seemed so dry. Also some of those phrags came from my daughter's room...hotter and drier than the other rooms where I grow phrags...but you don't quibble with a southern exposure! My SH plants get topped off 3 times/week with the fertilizer solution. To be honest, they did better when they were topped off with plain water in between. Overall, I have found that phrags really seem to thrive in bark...they'll take CHC well enough, but really thrive in bark...even old mix. I liked the convenience (and fun) of potting up in SH, but I doubt that I will continue with it...I'll experiment some more with it, but at least for slippers, the traditional media work best. By the way, I recently got some stuff called Dyna-rok....is it the same as Diatomite? Certainly looks like it...Take care, Eric



Eric, I think if any thing your plants in s/h should be watered more often than those in organic mixes under the same conditions. You water your organic mixes 5 times per week and the leca only 3 times. Your Phrags are probably staying too dry. I'm not sold on relying on s/h wicking to provide enough water although it might. But I think Phrags thrive with more water near the surface and leca drys fast at the surface. Try watering your Phrag a lot more, try to drown it and see what happens.


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## gonewild (Apr 9, 2007)

PHRAG said:


> As for leaftip burn. I heard this tip on some other forum long ago, and I have no idea if it's true or not. Since I started doing it, I haven't seen one burnt tip, so I am going to keep doing it. Before I fertilize, I make sure to pour some straight R/O water into the pots to get the roots wet. I think the point is to make sure the roots are good and wet before you add any water/fertilizer mix to the pot. Yes, in effect I am watering my orchids twice, and this just isn't feasible for some. But I am going to keep doing it, because it works for me.



When I was a little kid my mother always told me the same thing. Gotta water plants before you fertilize them or they will burn. So that theory has been around a long time!

It is a good practice... I think the more water the better. :clap: 

I don't think the theory is really an effect when you apply fertilizers as weak solutions like we are talking about. back when the theory was formulated fertilizers were usually applied once a month and in strong doses. In that situation having the roots wet would help to reduce the salt concentration hitting the root tissue. 

The way I grow my plants there is no need to pour water onto the plants to get them wet before fertilizing because my roots are always wet!

You are right John, once you find a method that works you can stick with it. In my case I like to hear what works and does not work for others so I can try different ideas. I want to learn how to allow the plants to grow better. There is always a better way.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Apr 9, 2007)

Well, I'm used to drowning phrags....I actually find that the underlights sh phrags use less water than the SH phrags on the windowsill, where most of them are. The reservoir never runs dry, while the windowsill SH really could use a daily addition. I'll try keeping it wetter. Then again, I could always just transplant it into bark mix....but one of the reasons for why I experiment on phrags so much is that I am really a (no darts, sticks, or rocks please...) a paph lover, not that much of a phrag fan. I don't mind losing phrags as much as I do losing paphs. Of course, I almost never lose phrags. Murphy's Law prevails, as always. As for fertilizing, I agree with the advice that Jack fowlie gave many years ago in the OD....paphs and phrags should be watered first, before fertilizing. Epiphytic orchids, with thick velum, should be fertilized dry....otherwise, the velum might be saturated and less able to absorb fertilizer solution. I don't always water before fertilizing my slippers, but I only fertilize them when they are alredy wet. Take care, Eric


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## NYEric (Apr 10, 2007)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> but one of the reasons for why I experiment on phrags so much is that I am really a (no darts, sticks, or rocks please...) a paph lover, not that much of a phrag fan. I don't mind losing phrags as much as I do losing paphs.


BLASPHEMER!!!!oke:


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## e-spice (Apr 10, 2007)

Back to the bleaching issue, Eric, did you use any Merit or Bayer insecticide on this plant? Just curious. Sometimes my phrags will develop some slightly bleaching in the leaves after I apply Merit.

e-spice


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Apr 10, 2007)

No, no insecticide at all. The insecticides I do use are Sunspray oil, for scale, pyrethrin, for mealies, and a bifenthrin spray for tough cases of mealies in paphs. This phrag has never had any kind of bug, so no spray of any type. I find most phrags pest resistant, but for some reason, some of my phrags, including pearcei, are scale magnets (as Eric found out from a few plants I gave him...). Take care, Eric


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## Candace (Apr 10, 2007)

That's odd you say that. I don't ever get bugs on any of my phrags, but my pearcei has had mealies twice. I thought it was really odd only one of my phrags had ever had them!


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## NYEric (Apr 11, 2007)

I find any Phrag can get mealies. I find this problem especially w/ one vendor I deal with. You just have to get inside the leaves and clean. I was surprised that Plueros have a problem w/ scale and other pests but i guess some of the plants were wild collected or have never been sprayed.


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