# Paph. rothschildianum X gratrixianum



## ORG (Oct 16, 2010)

A long time ago I had the possibility to make a picture of the cross between _Paph. rothschildianum_ and _Paph. gratrixianum_. The cross was named *Paphiopedilum. Lutz Roellke*.







It would be interesting to see also other clones of his cross or hybrids between _rothschidianum _and _insigne_, _helenae _or _tranlienianum_.

Also very rare are the hybrids between _rothschildianum _and _purpuratum_






*Paphiopedilum Purpurroth*

or with _Paphiopedilum javanicum_






Best greetings

Olaf


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## SlipperKing (Oct 16, 2010)

That last one looks like an argus X. All interesting but not my cup of tea


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## SlipperFan (Oct 16, 2010)

SlipperKing said:


> That last one looks like an argus X. All interesting but not my cup of tea



...although the roth/purpuratum cross is not at all bad.


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## emydura (Oct 16, 2010)

SlipperFan said:


> ...although the roth/purpuratum cross is not at all bad.



I agree. I'm not sure about the others.

David


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## Kevin (Oct 17, 2010)

A multifloral gratrixianum! :clap: Thanks for the pics! Do you have any idea how easy any of these are to bloom?


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## John M (Oct 17, 2010)

I like the Lutz Roellke. Not too sure about the others.


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## Kavanaru (Oct 17, 2010)

SlipperKing said:


> That last one looks like an argus X. All interesting but not my cup of tea



same here... 


I would, however be curious to see roth x helenae


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## fibre (Oct 17, 2010)

Kavanaru said:


> same here...
> 
> 
> I would, however be curious to see roth x helenae



 I would not be curious to see that! There are better crosses to do with roth and helenae!


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## Kavanaru (Oct 17, 2010)

fibre said:


> I would not be curious to see that! There are better crosses to do with roth and helenae!



being curious to see the cross (which according to Olaf, or at least how I understand his post, has been already done) does not mean the cross will be fantastic and deserve many awards  However, knowing the influence of both Roth and helenae in their primaries, I still think it is interesting to see how both species would "react" when put together... and for sure, it will be nicer than roth x hangianum 

IMO, most helenae primaries are not WOW! and have merits to be crowned as "the best Paphies ever", but they all show interesting features for future breeding, e.g. reduction of plant size (in most of them)... Even though they are not WOW! I particularly have a weakness for them  and like them even if as ugly as Paph Wössner Helene (yes, some people think it is a nice and even beautiful hybrid, but IMO it is one of ugliest looking helenae primaries I have seen - and have, but still it has something I like on it...)


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## fibre (Oct 17, 2010)

Kavanaru said:


> being curious to see the cross (which according to Olaf, or at least how I understand his post, has been already done) does not mean the cross will be fantastic and deserve many awards  However, knowing the influence of both Roth and helenae in their primaries, I still think it is interesting to see how both species would "react" when put together... and for sure, it will be nicer than roth x hangianum



Sometimes it is nice to do such an experiment. Lets go for it! I have an helenae left to carry out. Who adds the pollen? Who will sow the seeds of? Who will grow them to maturity?



Kavanaru said:


> IMO, most helenae primaries are not WOW! and have merits to be crowned as "the best Paphies ever", but they all show interesting features for future breeding, e.g. reduction of plant size (in most of them)... Even though they are not WOW! I particularly have a weakness for them  and like them even if as ugly as Paph Wössner Helene (yes, some people think it is a nice and even beautiful hybrid, but IMO it is one of ugliest looking helenae primaries I have seen - and have, but still it has something I like on it...)



I'm with you! I'm a friend of helenae hybrids too and I like Woessner Helene, even if it isn't a beauty. 
But to be honest, I'm not a friend of roth hybrids, at least in most cases.


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## hardy (Oct 17, 2010)

Looove the Paph. Lutz Roellke. Thanks for sharing!


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## paphreek (Oct 17, 2010)

I like the Lutz Roelke the best as well. It would be interesting to see more of this cross. Even a rebloom of the photographed plant might show improvement.


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## paphreek (Oct 17, 2010)

Kavanaru said:


> same here...
> 
> 
> I would, however be curious to see roth x helenae



I'm willing to bet someone with an "itchy toothpick" has already made it. It will only be a matter of time before we see the results.


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## goldenrose (Oct 17, 2010)

I'm with Rick - not my cup of tea. The trouble is how many of the cross looked like the Lutz Roelke that we see see or the PurpurRoth? I'm with fibre - I don't really have a desire to see roth x helenae. Yes Kavanaru it would be interesting but the time it takes & who wants to waste the bench space.


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## Jorch (Oct 17, 2010)

I like the Paph. Lutz Roellke! I wonder if gratrixianum x philippinense (the one Kevin asked a couple days ago) will be similar??


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## Kavanaru (Oct 17, 2010)

hehe, Goldenrose, you are right regarding the time and space needed for this or many other crosses... However, my understanding is that this cross has been already done. I would not be surprised if it was done by Franz Glanz himself (Franz Glanz is the owner of Wössner Orchideen, and the maker of all those Wössner-Whatever hybrids you can find). If you see most of the primary crosses he has done with all the "new" vietnamese Paphiopedilum, it seems more like he was just trying to check what would come out of them crossed with whatever he could find in his greenhouse (whether it was to perpetuate the "Wössner" name in the history of Slipper's breeding or just to check the potential of those plants, is a matter of a different discussion). So, I think there is still some growers who would have the time and space for those weird crosses... maybe not, those breeders interested in selected line breeding, but... 

I would still be interested in seeing them... as I said, I have a weakness for helenae hybrids, no matter whether they have merits for an "FCC Award" or for a "Right-to-the-Compost Award"


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## paphreek (Oct 17, 2010)

Kavanaru said:


> hehe, Goldenrose, you are right regarding the time and space needed for this or many other crosses... However, my understanding is that this cross has been already done. I would not be surprised if it was done by Franz Glanz himself (Franz Glanz is the owner of Wössner Orchideen, and the maker of all those Wössner-Whatever hybrids you can find). If you see most of the primary crosses he has done with all the "new" vietnamese Paphiopedilum, it seems more like he was just trying to check what would come out of them crossed with whatever he could find in his greenhouse (whether it was to perpetuate the "Wössner" name in the history of Slipper's breeding or just to check the potential of those plants, is a matter of a different discussion). So, I think there is still some growers who would have the time and space for those weird crosses... maybe not, those breeders interested in selected line breeding, but...
> 
> I would still be interested in seeing them... as I said, I have a weakness for helenae hybrids, no matter whether they have merits for an "FCC Award" or for a "Right-to-the-Compost Award"



I always thought FCC stood for "First Composted Cultivar":evil:


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## Kavanaru (Oct 17, 2010)

paphreek said:


> I always thought FCC stood for "First Composted Cultivar":evil:



LOL good one! :rollhappy:


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## fibre (Oct 19, 2010)

ORG said:


> A long time ago I had the possibility to make a picture of the cross between _Paph. rothschildianum_ and _Paph. gratrixianum_. The cross was named *Paphiopedilum. Lutz Roellke*.
> (...)
> 
> It would be interesting to see also other clones of his cross or hybrids between _rothschidianum _and _insigne_, _helenae _or _tranlienianum_.
> ...



This cross really got my interest. I don't think it is beautyful, but I think it is interesting to compare it with _Paphiopedilum (gratrixianum x philippinense)_:









The hybrid of _P. gratrixianum_ with phil has much moore red color in the dorsal, while the one with roth is green there, but has a clear dark drawing. Are this differences because of roth and phil are so very different breeders? Are the used _Paphiopedilum gratrixianum_ cultivars so different or is the name Paphiopedilum gratrixianum today used for very different kind of plants and names as _affine, daoense, villosum_? Or isn't it possible to decide, if we see only one cultivar of each?

So, what do you think?


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## ORG (Oct 19, 2010)

Dear Fibre, 
at first many thnks that you show the cross of gratrixianum with philippinense.
The problem with gratrixianum was really thet very different plants were cultivated with this name
The cross with rothschildianum were made 20 years ago and flowered 15 years ago. So the coloures of the pictures changed also a bit.

In the end. I did not show the pictures because I love these hybrids. I think these are interesting and very rare in culture. So we can learn on the base of these pictures also for our future hybridizing.

Best greetings

Olaf


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## Kevin (Oct 19, 2010)

fibre - thanks for the pic! I saw it on my other thread too - looks pretty good! How many flowers did this one have?


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## fibre (Oct 20, 2010)

Kevin said:


> fibre - thanks for the pic! I saw it on my other thread too - looks pretty good! How many flowers did this one have?



Sorry Kevin, I can't remember.


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