# Bonemeal addition?



## Carper (Apr 15, 2010)

Hi All,

A fairly simple question, but would appreciate any comments or experiences that anyone might have had.

I am from the UK and grow fairly successfully paphs and phrags in my new greenhouse. They are growing fairly well at the moment, being fed with the MSU fertilizer @ 125 PPM N approx. 3 times then flushed with RO. 

I added bonemeal to my large phrags last autumn and it has,I think, made a big difference. The plants have grown good strong, green leaves and my sorecerers apprentice is still flowering from September last year, and is now throwing up another spike! 

I will feed all the phrags, but would you also feed all the paphs aswell and why. I am already adding epsom salts and superthrive once per month to my feeding regime. I don't want to damage the roots on the paphs so am slightly hesitant. Lastly, during summer, what is the max strength either in PPM N or microsiemens that you would comfortably apply to paphs and phrags.

I look forward to your responses.

Regards

Gary


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## SlipperKing (Apr 15, 2010)

Read this Gary and tell us what you think.

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14977


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## Carper (Apr 15, 2010)

Have read the thread with interest Rick, along with several others on the internet and the picture is becoming clearer. To be brief, the MSU is the best balanced fertilizer I have used and this is noticeable in the plants with growth and flowers. A recent article I read also described the habitat for paphs, their growing conditions, and as mentioned in the thread, lime/calcium addition in various forms etc. However, detailing what I do already which is mentioned above, my understanding is that the bonemeal is a nitrogen boost which helps in producing more growths etc, which my plants seem to lack. Will the addition of the bonemeal increase the calcium levels, but will it also upset the balance. Or a more nervous approach, for a novice like me, is to increase the MSU concentration to 150/175 even 200 PPM N, or is this very dangerous.

Gary


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## NYEric (Apr 15, 2010)

Burn baby burn! 
Welcome from NYC!


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## Carper (Apr 15, 2010)

NYEric,

I take that as a yes, the flowers will then burst into flames!:rollhappy:


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## NYEric (Apr 15, 2010)

Only the leaves and roots!


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## SlipperFan (Apr 15, 2010)

We've used the MSU formula at 200 ppm during the summer months. No burning of roots or leaves.


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## NYEric (Apr 15, 2010)

Plants used all the nutrients to utilise all the energy. Good point, try that in the winter! :evil:


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## cnycharles (Apr 15, 2010)

one thing I wonder about when I read of those that have used fairly high amounts of fertilizer with paphs and phrags is how you keep the roots from burning? a fellow orchid club grower tells me that he is very careful but if he uses anything near 100ppms, he gets leaf tip and root burn. are those of you who use high amounts, using the fertilizer after watering first, only fertilizing very wet plants or how do you do it? do you never let the plants get near dry at all? 
thanks


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## Rick (Apr 15, 2010)

Carper said:


> Have read the thread with interest Rick, along with several others on the internet and the picture is becoming clearer. To be brief, the MSU is the best balanced fertilizer I have used and this is noticeable in the plants with growth and flowers. A recent article I read also described the habitat for paphs, their growing conditions, and as mentioned in the thread, lime/calcium addition in various forms etc. However, detailing what I do already which is mentioned above, my understanding is that the bonemeal is a nitrogen boost which helps in producing more growths etc, which my plants seem to lack. Will the addition of the bonemeal increase the calcium levels, but will it also upset the balance. Or a more nervous approach, for a novice like me, is to increase the MSU concentration to 150/175 even 200 PPM N, or is this very dangerous.
> 
> Gary



Bit of confusion Gary.

Bone meal is a calcium phosphorus boost. Blood meal is the big nitrogen boost you are thinking of.

So the addition of bone meal will not upset your nitrogen balance for paphs any more than it did for your phrags.


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## Rick (Apr 15, 2010)

Carper said:


> A recent article I read also described the habitat for paphs, their growing conditions, and as mentioned in the thread, lime/calcium addition in various forms etc.
> 
> Gary



Probably only about 1/2 of paph species are closely associated with limestone habitats so this is a poor generalization.

However ALL plants (orchids and non orchids) have calcium and magnesium in them at all times regardless of the habitat they come from. Furthermore, the relative abundances of these elements in the plants rarely correlates to the relative amounts in the environment.

However (again), In my experience the big multi-florals (the majority of which grow in association with limestone) grow much faster for me than for many people, and I provide supplemental calcium and magnesium in various forms.

Recently a post of a huge armeniacum (another paph species generally associated with limestone) was started, and part of its culture regime was regular supplementation with lime (Calcium hydroxide)


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## Carper (Apr 16, 2010)

Rick,

Just to clarify, are you using the MSU formula 13-3-15 which I am. If not, after adding the magnesium and calcium in various forms to your regular feed, is this final result incorporating more calcium and magnesium compared to the standard MSU.

Gary


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## Rick (Apr 16, 2010)

Carper said:


> Rick,
> 
> Just to clarify, are you using the MSU formula 13-3-15 which I am. If not, after adding the magnesium and calcium in various forms to your regular feed, is this final result incorporating more calcium and magnesium compared to the standard MSU.
> 
> Gary



The label is getting pretty worn but it looks like 12-6-13 on mine (from Roberts Flower Supply). There is some variation between the different vendors that make it up.

The bone meal or oyster shell go into the potting mix as integrated components of the mix or added periodically as a top dress. Magnesium (from Epsom) gets added either to irrigation water or fertilizer mix.

Ultimately the plants are seeing more Ca, Mg, PO4, and SO4 than if I was using straight MSU and nothing else.

Keep in mind the temporal aspects of feeding. Unless you are working hydroponically or semi hydro, the plants only get a few minutes of contact with the full concentration of your fertilizer mix. The plant gets a quick grab as the nutrients wash by, and another small percentage gets retained by the mix itself for later slow release (if there are roots nearby to pick it up). So by adding solid amendments to the potting mix itself you are approaching the same philosophy as the H or SH systems of have nutrients constantly available at at a fairly constant level. Since all these methods produce potentially equally good results (I've seen award winning SH and traditionally potted orchids), there is obviously a lot of latitude in how to feed your plants.

One idea that I have been recently toying with is to access a lab that can do leaf sample analysis and try to get more comprehensive data on how different paph species and different feeding regimes utilize nutrients. My recent readings in agriculture literature sounds like this is getting to be fairly standard practice to fine tune your crops for maximum production, and the practice has gotten efficient enough to get the analysis price down considerably.


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## Carper (Apr 16, 2010)

As the supplementation of calcium can be in various forms ie oyster shell, bonemeal etc, then this will be in the mix and will be available to the plant at all times. However, when you feed with the MSU solution, I read that you would ideally pass approx. 120% of the solution through the pot, so the plant gets the chance to obtain the maximum amount out of it. Would this be right, referring to your comments on the aspects of feeding. 

When adding any supplements in liquid/dissolved form, do you just add this to the feed or feed separately.

Gary


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## Rick (Apr 16, 2010)

Carper said:


> I read that you would ideally pass approx. 120% of the solution through the pot, so the plant gets the chance to obtain the maximum amount out of it.
> 
> Gary



Not sure quite what you mean by 120% unless you are basically saying that you are overdosing at 120% of what the plant can handle at any one time knowing that 99% of it is going to pass through the pot and be wasted.

I think you are getting the meaning of it.

When you look at the dose rates for Semi Hydro application of fertilizer, its a fraction of the amount you would use for normal pass through application.


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## Carper (Apr 17, 2010)

This seems complicated but feel this is also a fair question. To further explain the 120%. I have presently been using a pump sprayer to feed all my plants. This passes through the pots fairly quickly but I don't seem to have any idea as to what amount I am using for each plant. I read that you should aim for 120% of the volume in water/feed of the pot size you are feeding. I may be only giving the plant 50%. This then asks a 2nd question. I am using mainly chc which retains a good amount of moisture. After I have fed, I accept the majority of the feed passes through the pot, but what % do you think would be retained by the mix and taken in by the plant. I am getting used to refeeding my plants individually when required due to different size pots etc at the desired rate of 125 PPM N.


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## Carper (Apr 20, 2010)

Had a very interesting chat with the Eric Young Foundation yesterday on their feeding regime. They obviously mix up their own feed inclusive of the micronutrients. Their paphs are fed at between 500-700 microsiemens and phrags 750-1000 max. This is slightly lower than my present 1000 m/s, 125 ppm N. They can provide excellent growing conditions and this is evident with the quality of the plants. However, a few questions I would like opinions on are these;
1. For paph hybrids, having crosses of both lime liking and lime hating, ddo you supplement calcium or not?
2. I have a list of the paphs and their habitats etc, but cannot acquire the same for the phrags. 

Any help on this would be great.

Thanks

Gary


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## cnycharles (Apr 20, 2010)

Carper said:


> 1. For paph hybrids, having crosses of both lime liking and lime hating, ddo you supplement calcium or not?
> 2. I have a list of the paphs and their habitats etc, but cannot acquire the same for the phrags.
> 
> Any help on this would be great.
> ...



Hello Gary,
I can only help a little which you might view more as hindrance! (smile) All plants will need calcium to grow, so using a small amount isn't going to hurt but help. You could try adding to your phrag pots, and if over time plants that have looked good start not acting as thrifty, then possibly they don't like it. Though again remembering that all plants do generally need calcium in some form or another so a small addition shouldn't hinder any plants, especially if you have water with very few minerals in it. It seems that many phrags grow where their roots are exposed to trickling water. Though the roots may not be growing over limestone, the constantly moving water likely has some minerals in it so that the plant has it available most of the time. Many plants can use light the same way: if they like a decent amount of light but you live in a dark area, using lights over a period of time you can achieve the same net total amount of light the plant needs (it adds up). Just is a problem if the plant needs a specific photoperiod. ... but this is a digression trying to help show that using a little calcium if you have mineral free or low water should be beneficial for all plants.

I'll soon be getting ready for work so don't have time to dig and look up, but the Baker's culture books that have phrags in them often have media preferences for the plants and clues from their habitats. In many cases they will list if a certain plant in cultivation has been show to be happier if it has limestone added to the media, or if it grows in an area with limestone or has been noted to not like having limestone added to the media. It has been very helpful. It's out of print, but copies show up on ebay periodically at either somewhat reasonable (or very unreasonable) prices, but if someone has the book and has time they might be able to make a list of sorts from what the Baker's recommend. 

the book's title is 'Orchid Species Culture Pescatorea, Phaius, Phalaenopsis, Pholidota, Phragmipedium, Pleione' by Margaret L. Baker and Charles O. Baker. ISBN number on the book is 0-88192-208-0

you could also try getting in touch with Guido Braem and see if he has a list of phrags that are or aren't found around limestone

* note I did a quick scan of some of the listings in the book, and some phrags are found in black water regions of south america which means their media pH is often 5 or lower (acidic). These plants must still need calcium but possibly in very low amounts all the time(?). Others should weigh in on this. Since the book is older, some species aren't listed but many are types like the wallisii-complex or the longifolium types or pearcei types so would likely have nearly the same requirements. It's likely that the species you can't find in the book (or if you just want phrag sheets) you can go to the baker's website for culture at http://www.orchidculture.com/ and subscribe and download the sheets (phrags) that you want. I highly recommend using the culture sheets for species growing. They also have a few free sheets you can download to check out


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## Carper (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks for the information, and links which will no doubt keep my mind busy for a while. I'll look in to this and feedback accordingly.

Thanks again

Gary


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## etex (Apr 20, 2010)

I started putting crushed oyster shell on my potted cattleyas since I switched to RO water,in December, to supplement calcium. The book 'Orchid Pests and Diseases Guide' by the AOS states that calcium deficiency is most evident on catts,paphs and other orchids in the spring and summer monthes. Young and expanding leaves start turning black at the tips and spreads down the leaf, preceded by a yellow halo. It states that if calcium level remains above 2%,no symptoms will occur. Also states that calcium deficiency can be overlooked as it looks similar to sunburn or the damage caused by excessive use of dry fertilizer.


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## Rick (Apr 20, 2010)

etex said:


> I started putting crushed oyster shell on my potted cattleyas since I switched to RO water,in December, to supplement calcium. The book 'Orchid Pests and Diseases Guide' by the AOS states that calcium deficiency is most evident on catts,paphs and other orchids in the spring and summer monthes. Young and expanding leaves start turning black at the tips and spreads down the leaf, preceded by a yellow halo. It states that if calcium level remains above 2%,no symptoms will occur. Also states that calcium deficiency can be overlooked as it looks similar to sunburn or the damage caused by excessive use of dry fertilizer.




I think this is a very good point that reinforces Charles point too that all plants need calcium.

There really is no such plant as a "lime hater", although there are many plants that seem to be able to extract calcium from expceptionally low pH environments (including slippers).

As just about all Catts are naturally found up in trees, this takes out the arguement that they have a "calcium requirement" because of the environment they are found in (which is low in Ca). But obviously calcium is important to their physiology. Apparently epiphytic species are very good at recycling the limited nutrients transported via trees up to the tree crowns, which trickles back down to the ground by various deciduous/decomposition processes.


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## Carper (Apr 20, 2010)

Diane,

If adding crushed oyster shell as a top dressing, how much needs to be added to the pots to make any significant differences in addition to the feed. With this additive only, can you overdo it?

Gary


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## etex (Apr 21, 2010)

Carper said:


> Diane,
> 
> If adding crushed oyster shell as a top dressing, how much needs to be added to the pots to make any significant differences in addition to the feed. With this additive only, can you overdo it?
> 
> Gary



Gary,

I don't know.

I added a good pinch of crushed oyster shell to catt pots under 4" and 2 pinches to pots 4" and bigger. Figure it can't hurt and I had oyster shell left over after top dressing my paphs.
I also noticed Fred Clarke from Sunset Valley Orchids uses stone chips (limestone, I think) as part of his media mix for catts.
Orchid Digest had an interesting article last year by Nick Tannaci, a major brachy breeder, where he reviews his culture. He waters/flushes the pot a little sooner after he ferlilizes, then waits a little longer when he just uses water.


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## Rick (Apr 21, 2010)

Carper said:


> Diane,
> 
> If adding crushed oyster shell as a top dressing, how much needs to be added to the pots to make any significant differences in addition to the feed. With this additive only, can you overdo it?
> 
> Gary



The pH of oyster shell at full strength can get higher than 8. So you probably can over do it. When I top dress (as opposed to mixing it into fresh mix, which I do more often than top dress) I probably use maybe a teaspoon per 3 in pot.

Bone meal at maybe 1/2 tsp for the same size pot (and then wash it in fairly soon).


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## Carper (Apr 22, 2010)

Getting very near as to what my intentions are for the next 12 months which I think is a fair length of time to assess any positives or negatives. After spending the last week or so reading numerous articles, opinions, about habitats etc, need now to put in to my regime. As I now feel all orchids need some form of calcium and magnesium, irrespective whether they grow in it or not, ie limestone cliffs or either as epiphytes, they will get what they can from the sources at hand. I intend to feed them all, depending on pot size, some form of calcium as a supplement, either crushed oyster or dolomite lime, beginning with small quantities noting any reactions form the plants. After adding bonemeal recently, the plants have already reacted with good growth, probably due to the nitrogen boost. Magnesium will also be supplemented in small quantities on a regular basis. As I am using the MSU, 13-3-15 formula @ 125 PPM N with no effects, I have still decided to reduce this to around 90-100 PPM N for now, due to the supplementation of other micronutrients and a more frequent watering pattern , due to the arrival of summer, warmer temperatures. As I recently repotted in CHC with extra holes in the pots for air, these are drying rapidly, especially with the air movement and temps in the greenhouse and I am now watering every couple of days, so need to be concerned about any salt build up, hence the reduction in feed strength and possible damage to the plants, ie root burn. I have now recently started to to gather information on the light requirements of the plants. Even though I have a modest greenhouse of 3 x 3 metres with good height, I have noticed the light levels can vary dramatically. My paphs on the top shelf are gaining twice as much light than the phrags on the bottom shelves. I am considering switching most of these around so the phrags will receive more light. I am sure after reading certain articles that the paphs will still grow and flower well with the levels they will obtain. Another area I need to monitor. I will obviously monitor the situation and reaction of the plants and make a few necessary adjustments accordingly, but in the main, feel this to be a good approach. Unless, any of you guys have other ideas! Thanks for your comments and advice, but I may be back for more.

Gary


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## Rick (Apr 22, 2010)

Carper said:


> After adding bonemeal recently, the plants have already reacted with good growth, probably due to the nitrogen boost.
> 
> Gary



Bonemeal is very low in nitrogen. Do you mean bloodmeal for your nitrogen boost ?


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## Carper (Apr 23, 2010)

Sorry,

Mean't bloodmeal.
Just cross referenced what charles has supplied with regards to information from habitats from the Bakers guide. Even though I do have various hybrid, many more than species, a lot of these look like they have similar requirements which is now getting clearer. Some like a bit more shade than others, a bit more water, most with similar PH but the odd few slightly acidic. Its going to be an interesting first year ahead in my new greenhouse, but hopefully will bring some great results and NOT disasters!


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