# One really unhappy phrag



## Jenn4a (Feb 13, 2015)

My phrags seem to be the happiest out of the chids I have. Except for the newest one, wallisii x schlimii. I'm not sure if he wants to be treated more like a schlimii or wallisii.  
First I will tell you about my phrags and paphs I've had;
Phrag Fritz the 1st: I damaged the leaves (old news). His leaf is becoming stiff and is losing the green saturation. The underside has small damaged red spots, and the top looks a little potted. Spider mites?
Caudatum: looks really happy! The leaves are growing faster than I thought they would, and it looks like it's starting to make new roots at the base. 
MWarrior: maybe starting new roots, growing more or less like the Caudatum. 
MDC: I can't tell how the roots are doing, but the new growth is slowly getting larger. The older growth's leaves are still getting larger, not by much.
Fritz the 2nd: must LOVE me. The newest growth just keeps growing, pretty fast! There are new roots from the base of the newest growth, and I see a new root tip starting on one of the older roots from the oldest growth. 
Paph. Sukhakulii: enjoys the higher humidity and wetter media; he's happy enough to put out 2 new growths! I think one is a root, and the other is a new fan. 
Paph Ho Chi Minh: the leaves are growing, maybe starting new roots, but hard to tell. It seems happier when I keep the medium moist enough and not dry. 

I water the phrags daily or every other day. The media dries out pretty fast. The smaller phrags and the paphs are kept in the mini setup with higher humidity. The two larger phrags are in dry rooms with a fan. The newest phrag is in the kitchen. 

So the newest phrag is probably in trouble. The leaves are yellowing in areas, and yesterday I found a translucent yellow/rust halo on a leaf. I cut it off, and sealed it with alcohol and cinnamon. Last night, I checked him before going to bed and I found many asymmetrical translucent wet spots on the leaves. There was a pool of sap around the leaf I cut.  Also, there were areas of sap on the top of the leaves. I'm not exactly sure if I'm dealing with multiple things. Pests? Infection? A problem with something else? 
Here's the phrag's pictures.  http://s1167.photobucket.com/user/jenn4a/library/schlimii x wallisii


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## SlipperKing (Feb 13, 2015)

What temperature are you keeping it at? The big brownish spots look like bacterial rot. The small stuff looks like cold damage and bacterial rot can get a great start if the temps are too cold. Cold temps and too much water is a formula for disaster.


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## Jenn4a (Feb 13, 2015)

You're probably on to something, and I didn't consider it. Usually the house stays around 63°F at night, and up to 70°F- 73° Day. The last couple days, the house has been colder. Maybe as low as mid 50°F's in the night, and as low as 65°F daytime.  I have a humidity gauge and thermometer next to him. Right now it says a little over 66°F, and the humidity is around 31%. 

The MDC and Fritz the second are in a different area, but probably around the same values. What temps should I be aiming for? The only one that looks affected is schlimii x wallisii. 
_Why doesn't this stuff click in my brain?! I've been walking around the house shivering. I already think the normal temps in the house are cold.  _

Thanks!


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## NYEric (Feb 13, 2015)

Yeah, that's a little cool. 
BTW. When I clicked on your photobucket link some pretty funky stuff happened to my PC and some sweepstakes link popped under. Please copy and paste the IMG link for forums here, thanks.


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## SlipperFan (Feb 13, 2015)

My Phrags go down to 55ºF at night, and maybe a little lower. They don't have this problem. I'm wondering -- is this plant sitting in a window with those leaves very close or touching the window? It does look like cold damage to me, but localized.


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## SlipperKing (Feb 13, 2015)

Well my GH gets down to 55 as well but humidity is up to 80-90% and I don't water unless the day time will be sunny and warm. Jenn said this was the newest so I was wondering if the plant had been just mailed


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## Jenn4a (Feb 13, 2015)

I've purchased all my phrags from Hilltop orchids. 
Sorry Eric, I don't know why it does that sometimes! I've been using photobucket on my phone and it doesn't let me resize images on the app. When I'm on the computer, I resize them so they aren't too large. I check the album links and the adds rarely pop up, but if it does I just close the tab and click the link again; then it works. Sorry about that again though! 

About an hour ago, the temp by the new phrag was 71°F, and I got the same reading for the MDC and Fritz the 2nd. 

If it's significant, it might be, since the weekend I bought him was warm for this time of year (50°F), the greenhouse was even warmer. I was sweating inside the GH; I think the house temps of 70-73 are cold. Hmm I wish I asked how warm it was inside. Could the sudden change of temps cause distress?<-- I think it can, but I'm not experienced enough to know for sure. Also, there is a fan going in there for air movement. * New environment + sort of close to a window + fluctuating house temps + fan with cool air at some points of the day. * I may be wrong, but now that I'm putting it all together (with your help), it sounds like cold damage is the most likely answer. 

Yes I'm guilty. My two phrags in the shelving area don't seem to mind when they're watered, as long as they don't dry out. The bark I used for them dries out pretty fast, so if the bark isn't continually moist, it needs to be soaked to retain a decent amount of moisture again. I have watered them at night, but I'm careful of avoiding the leaves and the growths in general. The new phrag has not yet been repotted. Also guilty. I got him last Saturday. I water the new phrag when I wake up.

I was thinking that the phrag was being burned by the T5HO 24W at first. The window statement could be correct. I keep the MDC and Fritz further from it(different shelving unit), and mainly rely on the T5. I'm checking the temperature closer to the window, about 8 inches away on the shelf. I'll get back to you on the reading. The pot was 14" away (from the closest part facing the window), but some leaves could have definitely been close enough, now that I look at it. For reference, the room is 70°F right now by the two phrags, and the humidity read 28% 
*luckily, the leaves never touched the window. It'll take awhile to see how low the temp gets by that window, but it says 68°F right now. 

When I found the halo, it was positioned directly under the t5, about 8 inches away? 

Thanks for the replies, sorry about the photo album links, and sorry for the cloudy judgement. I'm really out of it this week! Well.. More than usual.


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## Jenn4a (Feb 14, 2015)

Quick update: The room with the MDC and Fritz the 2nd did not drop below 61°F last night, 8" away from the window. To see the lowest value, I'll have to check tomorrow. It said 61°F was the lowest from another area. 

It's telling me that the highest value is 90°F, and it's currently 82°F by the window, with 16% humidity.


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## SlipperFan (Feb 14, 2015)

So, you think the burning could be from being too close to the t5 light? Unlikely, unless the leaf was almost touching.


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## Jenn4a (Feb 14, 2015)

SlipperFan said:


> So, you think the burning could be from being too close to the t5 light? Unlikely, unless the leaf was almost touching.



Thanks for the reply!
It was my initial thought, but I looked up pictures of sunburn and I didn't think it a perfect match. Also, I don't think it was close enough either, after seeing posts of T5s and plants very close to the bulbs. 

I'm worried about the temperature swings in the house though. The good news is that the new phrag hasn't shown any rapid changes. I'll give it a more thorough look to make sure I didn't miss anything tonight.


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## SlipperFan (Feb 14, 2015)

Temperature swings are pretty normal in nature. I don't think that is the problem.


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## Jenn4a (Feb 14, 2015)

At the top of my head, the only thing that I can think of that I left out would be that this phrag did not get watered with seaweed extract within the first couple days. 
I've watered most of my plants with seaweed extract when I got them.. if not in the first 12 hours, I did within 2 days. I really don't know if seaweed extract would have any significance in this case..


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## SlipperFan (Feb 15, 2015)

Seaweed extract won't hurt, but I don't think that's an issue. I still think it looks like cold damage. If not from your care, then maybe before you got it. Cold damage may take a day or so to show up.


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## Jenn4a (Feb 16, 2015)

Thank you so much for the replies! I'm very sorry for my ignorance. 
I think this phrag will need to be repotted and I will check for damage. It is definitely possible that the damage could have been done or at least have started from the greenhouse. I'm not trying to blame the greenhouse because many of their orchids are wonderful. I just don't have the exact conditions they do. 
For instance, this is what I've noticed. 
They water with a hose, and they don't avoid the crowns or leaf axils. My Fritz Schomburg the 2nd came with water pooled in the inner most leaf, but I saw it and I wicked it up. 
Also, I noticed that there's some water that randomly drips. Leaks? I've seen a few plants with their crowns caught underneath the drips and avoided those. They do move the plants around quite often. 
As far as his temps, I will ask him next time. I should have asked. 

It is possible that there was water stuck in the areas I couldn't see; several growths are showing some type of infection D: in January, I was extra afraid of rotting my plants that as soon as I got them, I dripped alcohol inside the crowns and axils. The last trip, I was lazy and did not take the same precautions. I believe he watered that same day.. Oh crap. 

Sorry for the long post. The leaves that I have cut, they're still yellowing and turning red, but at least it's slower than before.. I did an overnight soak of generic cleary's when I posted the thread. I'll probably have to cut off some older growths, and some older leaves to get to the damaged areas.


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## SlipperFan (Feb 16, 2015)

??? What you are showing now is very different from the earlier photos.
Most of what is see here is old spikes drying up, old leaves dying off, or just reddish coloration at the base of growths. The brown areas that looks soft -- I'd cut off and put cinnamon on that area. Or get Phyton 27 and spray it on the area.


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## Justin (Feb 16, 2015)

i think you might be over-observing the plant. most orchids will grow well with "benign neglect". just give it plenty of light, water, and air circulation and it should grow fine.


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## Jenn4a (Feb 16, 2015)

The ones I posted today were taken today, and the ones from earlier were from Friday or before then. I'm sorry. 

My ignorance is here again.. I had no idea that this phrag bloomed before?..  I haven't had the opportunity to observe a phrag before blooming, or right after to know how it looks. The owner of the GH looked at it, and told me it looked like it was going to bloom soon though? I guess in my head I figured it hasn't bloomed yet.. I'm still not sure how to tell.

You're right Justin, I'm great at over-analyzing things.. good intentions though. I wanted to make sure the phrag is okay. 

Thanks!


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## ALToronto (Feb 16, 2015)

Red coloration at the base of the growths is completely normal. You can do a lot of damage with the chemicals you have in mind, just leave it alone to adapt to its new environment.


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## Jenn4a (Feb 16, 2015)

Thanks! I appreciate all the responses. 
I know that the pigmentation is normal for some phrags; I think the intense red color is rather neat, personally. I do have troubles differentiating reds, pinks, and browns sometimes though.  maybe some of those areas I was worried about aren't brown but pink/red. 

If you guys think it's relatively healthy, I'll repot him, then place him by my MDC and the big Fritz. 

Is there anything I should worry about? I thought he was okay when I brought him home, and only became worried once the spots appeared. Once I'm out of my "worried" mode, I'll stop over-analyzing.


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## Justin (Feb 17, 2015)

one other note. many Phrag species live in constantly wet environments in nature. some species even live submerged underwater at different times of the year. so you don't need to apply alcohol or chemicals every time water comes near the leaves. just focus on the learning the "macro" aspects of your overall orchid culture (light, water, humidity, airflow, feeding) and let the plants do their thing.


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## NYEric (Feb 17, 2015)

I also think that you had over-reacted. The leaves you cut will die, they have no other choice. the yellow leaves in the photos are mostly at a previously bloomed growth; also expended. Any other stalled or dead leaves can be pulled off. BTW, 90F+ and 12% humidity is not a good thing for any length of time.


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## Jenn4a (Feb 20, 2015)

Yep, I agree! (Overreacted, and temps) :0
*Sorry about the overreacting!*
I do have a tendency to be a lengthy writer, maybe _sometimes_ exaggerate  and I definitely can be dramatic in my writing,_ a gift, and a curse._

I am making a cover for the shelving area, like what I have for the smaller orchid setup. It's almost done though  I think the heat issue will resolve once I can keep the door open, and not have to worry about my pets. After watching the temps close by the window, it stays: 63 lowest, day average around 73-80, and max 91. The humidity: 16-25. 

I am still watching to make sure there's no quick changes. I'm not very worried anymore  --I'll try to note anything in a more relaxed way.-- 
You guys are right about the leaves yellowing that are older. There is one new growth that is yellowing at the tip of the leaves though. I'll add a couple photos when I get on the computer. I know that phrags like pure water, so I've flushed the pot out a couple times with bottled water. I haven't gotten to repotting him yet. 

On an unrelated note, I have a new paph that is now in bloom  it's a delenatii that I've been eyeing ever since my first greenhouse visit; $15 in bud. I got him and the phrag at the same time. If you guys would like to see pictures of the delenatii, I can post some of him too.


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## NYEric (Feb 20, 2015)

Sure, that's why we have this forum!


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## Jenn4a (Feb 20, 2015)

View from below. 




Yellowing growth, the camera didn't capture the yellow as well as the orange.







Here's my Paph. delenatii that I got in bud.  The foliage is bluish on top, and very dark on the bottom.


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## SlipperFan (Feb 20, 2015)

Nice delenatii var. vinicolor! Excellent purchase.

The growth on the right is toast. The one on the left looks fine. The yellowish leaf just looks old to me.


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## NYEric (Feb 21, 2015)

Jenn4a said:


> .



Did this plant get frozen at some point?


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## Jenn4a (Feb 21, 2015)

NYEric said:


> Did this plant get frozen at some point?



I don't think so. At least not while I've had it.  Any place I've had it has been over 60°F. The symptoms of the wet patches showed up while I had it in the room that ranges from 63-90. Since I didn't know what was going on, I quickly moved him away from the other plants into the kitchen. I always watched the temps by him. The patches stopped appearing when I placed him in the kitchen. The yellowing also appeared before I moved him into the kitchen, and the yellowing has slowed down since moving to the kitchen. (The kitchen stays between 60-70.) I had the therm. Placed a couple inches away from the plant. 

A couple days ago I moved him into my bathroom before the temps dropped to -1°F through -22°F with the windchill. I don't know if the problem would have been worse if I left him in the kitchen, but the patio door lets in some cool air (dog needs out frequently). 
** my bathroom stays around 68-73.


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## NYEric (Feb 21, 2015)

You're going to lose the little brown leaf. The new growth on the left looks like it has cellular damage on the second from the top leaf.  Good luck.


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## Jenn4a (Feb 21, 2015)

Thanks for the reply. 
It wouldn't surprise me if I lose the growth on the right. It's kind of scrunched at the base, and the inner most leaf is orange with some white "dust". The leaf in between the outter yellow leaf and the innermost one is still green. There's also two smaller growths that you can't see from the photo; one of them is right behind the yellowing one.
Could any type of pest be causing the cellular damage? There's quite a few areas of cellular damage. 

_From what I've read, I believe the yellowing and orange areas with white film could be fungal, but I don't want to jump to conclusions on anything. _ 

Thanks again!


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## NYEric (Feb 22, 2015)

idk.


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## Jenn4a (Feb 25, 2015)

I finally repotted! The tag reads Phrag. Schlimii 'Pink Ice' JC/AOS x wallisii 'Tower Grove' HCC/AOS
This phrag has the BEST roots out of all the phrags I have.. not just because it has the most growths either.  Also, The only rotten roots I saw were on a dead/dying growth. I'm happy I repotted when I did.. I found an earthworm in the pot... I assume the mix was pretty broken down.
I know that the pot looks pretty big, but I think it'll be okay. I decided to go up in size to give the new growths room (and their roots rooms.) I used around 50/50 LECA and Paph. and Phrag Mix _from repotme.com._ I also added in a little sphag; I used more sphag closer to the top. _The classic repotme mix includes: sm. coconut husk chips, small and medium lava rock, perlite, small stalite, coir, small granite chips. http://www.repotme.com/orchid-mix/Paph-Phrag-Orchid-Mix.html_

Anyways, I decided to cut off some of the older leaves... I found some crud in them. It looks like there was a previous infection, and the older leaves were just holding some yucky, old infected tissue. Other than what has been posted already, some new spots with yellow halos are showing up on another leaf. I'm not going to try cutting it off unless the spot grow in size.. or a trusted member suggests it 

*The roots are nice and healthy, so I'm not overly concerned. I'll keep an eye on him; I'm not sure what will happen with some of the new growths. *As long as the foliage isn't infected, I think this phrag is healthy!* 

So here it is, the leaf, and the plant in the new pot.  *I'm showing multiple views so there won't be any confusion on the appearance. 

I guess the photo didn't capture the yellow halo as well as I was hoping.


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## Jenn4a (Feb 25, 2015)

I think I solved one issue! 
Some of those spots that I was initially worried about *when I started this thread* disappeared! Some of them has disappeared completely, but some of the ones that were there the longest are barely noticeable. Some of them are still fading away! :clap:

I did a google search when I noticed they were disappearing, and this thread came up: http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31935

Over-hydration!!! 
The old mix was soggy (probably way too soggy for being 50% wallisii.) Once I repotted this phrag, it now has enough moisture, but also enough air. At least this is my theory.  .. So this phrag probably will enjoy being watered every day, or every other day, but it does not appreciate sitting in water for too long. 

I don't know if the brown/red spots with yellow halos are connected to the same issue, but I'm happy I figured out one thing! I also figured this info could be helpful for anyone else who has a similar issue. (Particularly with a long petaled phrag and their hybrids)
Now I'm wondering if wallisii was the pod or pollen parent.


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