# Darned false spider mites... *grumbles*



## The Mutant (Dec 16, 2014)

Discovered that these guys had come back today. I had a smaller outbreak during summer, which I didn't take care of properly, and now it's come back to bite me in the...foot...

So, tomorrow it's off to buy some pesticide (works on spider mites as well, already checked) and this time I won't stop halfway through the treatment as I did last time.

Lesson learned. 



I apologize to my orchids for being a sloppy owner...


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## Chicago Chad (Dec 16, 2014)

I just use diluted soap for those. I have not found pesticides necessary.


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## The Mutant (Dec 16, 2014)

Really? That works? Maybe I should try that instead. I don't like using pesticides if I don't have to.


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## Chicago Chad (Dec 16, 2014)

If it doesn't, the good thing is the plants could care less. I think it does but I seldom have bug issues. The soap breaks down the exoskeleton as I understand. Perhaps Ray or Naoki can elaborate.


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## goods (Dec 16, 2014)

Mites (and other small insects) are able to breathe when submerged or covered in water because they are normally surrounded by a small pocket of air suitable for sustaining them while they're submerged. When soap is added to water, it breaks the surface tension and essentially eliminates the air pocket, causing the mites to smother.


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## TyroneGenade (Dec 16, 2014)

On the subject of smothering, in the spring I'm going to gas my thriving mealybug collection with CO2. They arrived as a kind gift from an Ebay vendor...


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## cnycharles (Dec 17, 2014)

... I hope you paid your carbon tax 


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## consettbay2003 (Dec 17, 2014)

Insecticidal soap will kill with the mites. It only kills the adults so you will need three treatments approximately 7/10 apart to deal with the hatching eggs.


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## Erythrone (Dec 17, 2014)

cnycharles said:


> ... I hope you paid your carbon tax
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



:rollhappy:


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## reivilos (Dec 17, 2014)

The Mutant said:


> Really? That works? Maybe I should try that instead. I don't like using pesticides if I don't have to.



I went that way before ... Now I do use pesticide to kill each and every one of them.


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## TyroneGenade (Dec 17, 2014)

cnycharles said:


> ... I hope you paid your carbon tax



No, but I have ordered the death of an organic cow (yum yum) which should buy me some methane credits that can be converted to CO2 credits. 

Would the soap also work for the mealybugs? How long do I have to submerge them?


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## The Mutant (Dec 17, 2014)

After some internet browsing, I'm starting to wonder if it isn't spider mites I have, instead of false spider mites. I haven't noticed any webs, but I think the infestation isn't that serious yet. Oh, well. The insecticide I use, works on mites, so shouldn't be a problem in any case.

As far as I know, we don't have insecticidal soap here in Sweden. I did use a home made remedy when my hainanense had mealybugs, though, and it worked like a charm. I'm thinking maybe I could use this home made insecticide later as a preventative method, after I've gotten this outbreak under control.

The remedy was; soap (I didn't have any so I used Fairy instead) + water + alcohol (ethanol in this case), spray and pour through the pot (although I repotted mine as well as watered it with this solution later).



reivilos said:


> I went that way before ... Now I do use pesticide to kill each and every one of them.


Well, I went the easy way and bought insecticide; it's too cold to give my plants thorough baths right now, especially if I have to do it repeatedly.



TyroneGenade said:


> No, but I have ordered the death of an organic cow (yum yum) which should buy me some methane credits that can be converted to CO2 credits.
> 
> Would the soap also work for the mealybugs? How long do I have to submerge them?


:rollhappy:

When the next freak storm breaks out here in Sweden, I'll know whom to blame. :wink:


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## cnycharles (Dec 17, 2014)

TyroneGenade said:


> No, but I have ordered the death of an organic cow (yum yum) which should buy me some methane credits that can be converted to CO2 credits.



Mmm, cow is good; you know some fools wanted to outlaw the existence of cows in our fair country because they created too much methane? I can see having to install catalytic converters or such on the backs of all livestock... Then again maybe it was just the introduction of the idea to yet create one more tax :/

Come to think of it it was probably ancestors of the people who got rid of all the buffalo here, who wanted to tax the cows; it was those buffalo who got all this global warming started and the hunters were just doing their globally correct duty to fix the environment 

Not to get completely off topic, Hort oil probably works well for mites of all kinds

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## bullsie (Dec 20, 2014)

I have to look, but some time back I copied a recipe for an insecticide for spider mites that was non toxic to everything. I haven't tried it but would be interesting to know how it worked - I go look to see if I have it still......


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## Secundino (Dec 20, 2014)

Insecticidal soap should be just plain potassium-soap. (Low K, of course ...). It works.


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## The Mutant (Dec 20, 2014)

bullsie said:


> I have to look, but some time back I copied a recipe for an insecticide for spider mites that was non toxic to everything. I haven't tried it but would be interesting to know how it worked - I go look to see if I have it still......


That would be great! Some of my orchids are not fond of this particular insecticide I'm using. 



Secundino said:


> Insecticidal soap should be just plain potassium-soap. (Low K, of course ...). It works.


The problem is; what on earth could this be called in Swedish? I tried google on possible names, but came up empty handed.


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## consettbay2003 (Dec 20, 2014)

Most insecticides are ineffective against mites and at best only suppress them as they are not insects but arachnids.
Insecticidal soaps and horticultural oils will eradicate them with several applications.


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## bullsie (Dec 21, 2014)

Ok, don't know if this will help, found this in notes of an orchid meeting some place at some time - might have been published in Orchids - that I've kept. Here is the recipe:

Red Spider Mites:
Mix equal parts buttermilk and water. Add few drops dishwasher soap. Blend for 15 seconds and spray plants.

Hope it helps!

The other recipe I have, maybe from someone here, for mites:

1 tablespoon liquid dish soap
1 tablespoon Wesson oil
32 oz water
combine, shake well and spray. Repeat in 7 -10 days.


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## Justin (Dec 21, 2014)

i would use a lot smaller concentration of the dish soap but the vegetable oil will help smother them. be sure to get the undersides of the leaves and apply every 7 days.


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## Parryaw (Dec 21, 2014)

Will alcohol help? It's really causing my paraphaleanopsis serpentilingua a lot of damage including an aborted spike and has significantly slowed down it's growth My local nursery does not currently have miticides and pesticides seem rather ineffective.


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## Secundino (Dec 21, 2014)

:rollhappy: I'll try: _Kärntvål_.:sob:

I've found that K or Na based soaps are used because of insecticid properties. I suppose it is just the wettening and wax-disolving ability soap has. As K-soap is something like a paste, it dissolves readily.


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## The Mutant (Dec 21, 2014)

bullsie said:


> Ok, don't know if this will help, found this in notes of an orchid meeting some place at some time - might have been published in Orchids - that I've kept. Here is the recipe:
> 
> Red Spider Mites:
> Mix equal parts buttermilk and water. Add few drops dishwasher soap. Blend for 15 seconds and spray plants.
> ...


Thank you! 



Justin said:


> i would use a lot smaller concentration of the dish soap but the vegetable oil will help smother them. be sure to get the undersides of the leaves and apply every 7 days.


There is another insecticide I'm considering on getting and using for preventative measures. It seems to consist of only vegetable oil (canola oil). It says it's effective against mites, and it seems less stressful on the orchids compared to the one I'm using right now. 

Would this be a good idea or does the insecticide need something more than oil to be effective against insects?



Secundino said:


> :rollhappy: I'll try: _Kärntvål_.:sob:
> 
> I've found that K or Na based soaps are used because of insecticid properties. I suppose it is just the wettening and wax-disolving ability soap has. As K-soap is something like a paste, it dissolves readily.


My guess is it's available in Sweden, I just need to figure out what to look for.


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## ALToronto (Dec 21, 2014)

In English, they would be called lye soap and potash soap. In most European languages, sodium and potassium are called Natrium and Kalium (hence the Na and K symbols). Hope this helps you with your search.


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## The Mutant (Dec 21, 2014)

ALToronto said:


> In English, they would be called lye soap and potash soap. In most European languages, sodium and potassium are called Natrium and Kalium (hence the Na and K symbols). Hope this helps you with your search.


I've searched on kaliumtvål/såpa and the result was an article on wikipedia about how to make soap...


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## Bjorn (Dec 21, 2014)

In norwegian potassium soap is grønnsåpe. Sodium soap is the "normal" soaps.


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## Secundino (Dec 21, 2014)

We met at the same article :rollhappy: but imagine when I did a quick back-translation, the soap was a 'nuclear soap'!!!:drool::drool:

From german I also knew the word 'Grünseife', which is the same, too. Just tried to buy one - and the sales assistant didn't even know what I was talking about. But most normal soaps should do as long as they do not content parfumes, essential oils and sintetic surfactants that might have a negative effect on the plant.


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## The Mutant (Dec 21, 2014)

Bjorn said:


> In norwegian potassium soap is grønnsåpe. Sodium soap is the "normal" soaps.


I knew it... As I said, as long as you know what you're looking for. Thank you Bjorn! It's great that our languages are so similar. So it's just simple grönsåpa, which is available pretty much anywhere. :rollhappy:



Secundino said:


> We met at the same article :rollhappy: but imagine when I did a quick back-translation, the soap was a 'nuclear soap'!!!:drool::drool:
> 
> From german I also knew the word 'Grünseife', which is the same, too. Just tried to buy one - and the sales assistant didn't even know what I was talking about. But most normal soaps should do as long as they do not content parfumes, essential oils and sintetic surfactants that might have a negative effect on the plant.


Nuclear soap! Well, should be able to deal with pretty much any pests that could afflict our plants. :rollhappy:

Bjorn told me what it was. It was too simple really...


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## Bjorn (Dec 22, 2014)

one pound of nuclear soap please.....


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## Secundino (Dec 22, 2014)

...but mind the 'best before' date. :evil:


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## Erythrone (Dec 22, 2014)

Bjorn said:


> one pound of nuclear soap please.....



:rollhappy:


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 5, 2015)

I not sure how to go about washing the leaves of paphs with so many crevices to cover, but when I had mites (no idea what kind) on my dendrobiums, frequent washing down with or without soap worked well.
With soap probably works better in detaching the bugs off the plant surface.

I also do not like to use harsh chemicals as I grow my plants indoor.
Fortunately, I rarely have pest problems, but getting rid of mites on my dendrobiums was rather a easy task. Just washing the plants every few days, and do this a few times and you won't see them again.


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## The Mutant (Jan 5, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> I not sure how to go about washing the leaves of paphs with so many crevices to cover, but when I had mites (no idea what kind) on my dendrobiums, frequent washing down with or without soap worked well.
> With soap probably works better in detaching the bugs off the plant surface.
> 
> I also do not like to use harsh chemicals as I grow my plants indoor.
> Fortunately, I rarely have pest problems, but getting rid of mites on my dendrobiums was rather a easy task. Just washing the plants every few days, and do this a few times and you won't see them again.


The chemical I used is really not nice on the plants; they all develop ugly spots, cell collapse, etc. some time after application. This is why I never gave them the full treatment earlier, but did now. So far, it seems to have worked (blemishes and all). I thought I had new mites on my lowii a few days ago, but it looks like the mite damage might be from before I treated them. I used a moist paper and wiped the underside of the leaves and only found a couple of dead mites. Dead mites = good mites. I'm keeping an eye on it, just to make sure the damage doesn't increase.

I've gotten neem oil that I'll try to use as a preventative/leaf gloss twice a year. We'll see how it works.

Washing the plants during winter is not an option, I'm afraid. It's too risky.


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## daniella3d (Jan 13, 2015)

I used floramite on my orchids and none were affected by it, quite the opposite. They all grew much better after, and no more spotting. I treated them with imidaclophrid for mealy bugs and floramite for spider mite. I tried insecticide soap and it did not work for me.

I ordered a small bottle of floramite from ebay. They ship worldwide. The stuff is quite expensive, like 25$ for 2 ounce or something like that, but it's very effective and a small bottle last a long time.




The Mutant said:


> The chemical I used is really not nice on the plants; they all develop ugly spots, cell collapse, etc. some time after application. This is why I never gave them the full treatment earlier, but did now. So far, it seems to have worked (blemishes and all). I thought I had new mites on my lowii a few days ago, but it looks like the mite damage might be from before I treated them. I used a moist paper and wiped the underside of the leaves and only found a couple of dead mites. Dead mites = good mites. I'm keeping an eye on it, just to make sure the damage doesn't increase.
> 
> I've gotten neem oil that I'll try to use as a preventative/leaf gloss twice a year. We'll see how it works.
> 
> Washing the plants during winter is not an option, I'm afraid. It's too risky.


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## The Mutant (Jan 14, 2015)

daniella3d said:


> I used floramite on my orchids and none were affected by it, quite the opposite. They all grew much better after, and no more spotting. I treated them with imidaclophrid for mealy bugs and floramite for spider mite. I tried insecticide soap and it did not work for me.
> 
> I ordered a small bottle of floramite from ebay. They ship worldwide. The stuff is quite expensive, like 25$ for 2 ounce or something like that, but it's very effective and a small bottle last a long time.


I'll check it out. Something that works and doesn't damage the orchids would be great to have. Thank you.


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## The Mutant (Jan 17, 2015)

*Aaaand they're back...*

Or rather, they never left...

I thought the tip of one of the leaves on my Neo looked a bit strange so I decided to check. Found a bunch of these creeps happily munching/slurping away at the Neo. I also did the "wipe the leaves with a moist paper"-check and it came away with a yellow/brownish/beige smear on it and now I finally know what that looks like.

I have no Neo any longer, the mites won that round.

I've now realized that the mites are probably here to stay so I've decided that since I can't get rid of them, at least try to keep their numbers down and the damage to a minimum. I will do this with preventative measures like spraying with horticultural oils/leaf gloss twice a year, regular showers (not during winter though, need to come up with a solution to this), keep the plants clean (been really sloppy with this), keep the growing areas cleaner, and spray them with home made insecticidal soap occasionally. I will also get a stronger loupe since I want to put some faces to the name, so I can cackle in delight whenever I do something I know they won't like. :evil:

I've also decided not to sell, trade or give away any plants to anyone. I really don't want anyone else to get these pests, especially from me, since they seem very difficult to get rid of. I had planned to sell most of my Phals during spring since I'm more interested in Pahps/Phrags now and I need the space. Because of the mite problem I've instead tossed the ones I had planned to sell and now I'm 14 plants shorter. I really don't want to think about how much money I threw away when I did this.  

I've noticed that they seem to prefer chewing on the multiflora Paphs, especially my poor lowii is apparently a mite delicacy, but so far they haven't touched the parvis.

I will keep observing what happens in my collection and how the mite infestation develops. It will be rather interesting to see how long it will take for the mites to eradicate my collection, if they'll manage it in the first place. I will have to look at it as an experiment otherwise I'll get too depressed.


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## Justin (Jan 17, 2015)

If your plants have mites it is a very serious problem for your orchids and you need to use more aggressive methods than oils, etc. 

At this point you need to get a serious miticide. Is bifenthrin available in your country? 

http://www.amazon.com/Talstar-Insecticide-Termiticide-Bifenthrin-Mosquitoes/dp/B00409QKRY


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## The Mutant (Jan 18, 2015)

Justin said:


> If your plants have mites it is a very serious problem for your orchids and you need to use more aggressive methods than oils, etc.
> 
> At this point you need to get a serious miticide. Is bifenthrin available in your country?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Talstar-Insecticide-Termiticide-Bifenthrin-Mosquitoes/dp/B00409QKRY


Not allowed here I'm afraid so nope. I was recommended Ardap and I'll see if I can get some of that instead. I'll have to wait till summer to treat them however since it's poisonous so I'll have to be outdoors.

If not, then let's just say I think they'll win and now it's just a matter of seeing how long time it'll take for them to eat through my collection. Hopefully, I'll get some nice flowerings to enjoy in the meantime.


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## Justin (Jan 18, 2015)

find a pyrethrine based spray to use. it has very low toxicity to mammals and is safe to use on a small collection indoors. spray every seven days until the infestation is done.


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## The Mutant (Jan 18, 2015)

Justin said:


> find a pyrethrine based spray to use. it has very low toxicity to mammals and is safe to use on a small collection indoors. spray every seven days until the infestation is done.


That's good news at least. That's the one I started with; Natria Pyrsol - active ingredient is pyrethrine, and I have been using till now. I suspected that I should've had kept the treatment up since these are not spider mites but false spider mites and they seem to have a longer/slower life cycle. The only thing about it is that it's NOT plant friendly. My orchids get really ugly after they've been treated with it.

Oh well, better to have ugly orchids than infested and/or dead ones. As I've said to others; dead orchids are really hard to flower...

I've read about predatory mites and Floramite and none of them are effective against false spider mites. It really is typical.

Thanks for returning my hope of saving my collection though.


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## daniella3d (Jan 21, 2015)

I bought this for my plants. They ship worldwide:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Free-1-2-oz-...858?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a93636ce2


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 21, 2015)

The Mutant said:


> That's good news at least. That's the one I started with; Natria Pyrsol - active ingredient is pyrethrine, and I have been using till now. I suspected that I should've had kept the treatment up since these are not spider mites but false spider mites and they seem to have a longer/slower life cycle. The only thing about it is that it's NOT plant friendly. My orchids get really ugly after they've been treated with it.
> 
> Oh well, better to have ugly orchids than infested and/or dead ones. As I've said to others; dead orchids are really hard to flower...
> 
> ...



I have used sprays with pyrethrine in the past with good results.
It breaks down fast in the sun light.
The important thing is you have to spray where the bugs are to be most effective and you have to keep all the windows and doors shut for at least 20 min.
You want to leave the area or the apartment or house. Take your pets and especially little ones like fish (these will be badly affected if left in the treated room) with you if possible.
Return to the room and open the window and ventilate.
It is quit safe for both humans and plants otherwise and it at least took care of thrips.

Also, because there is no long-lasting effect due to the short halflife of pyrethrine, you might have to repeat the spraying often.
For mites, probably multiple times for a couple of days interval I would say.
Also, you would have to spray consistently until you are sure the bugs are gone, otherwise any survivors will not going to be affect by future application of pyrethrine.


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## myxodex (Jan 23, 2015)

You should be able to get Savona, an insecticidal soap which I think comes from the Netherlands. I live in the UK and I got mine through amazon. I use this with some cinnamon oil (0.5%) added and it seems to kill quite a range of pests and it doesn't smell (except if you add the cinnamon oil that is. I dissolve the cinnamon oil in some isopropanol first and then add it to the savona mixture.


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## TyroneGenade (Jan 23, 2015)

I see there are some alternatives for the amazon.com users:
http://www.amazon.com/Garden-Safe-I...r=8-2-fkmr1&keywords=Savona+Insecticidal+Soap 

http://www.amazon.com/Safer-Brand-I...r=8-3-fkmr1&keywords=Savona+Insecticidal+Soap

Hooray.


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## Justin (Jan 23, 2015)

i don't find soaps to be effective for a medium size collection. go with the pyrethrin or somethign stronger if you can find it. 

i use decathlon + enstar II for all my insect killing needs and never have chronic problems any more.


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## myxodex (Jan 24, 2015)

Justin said:


> i don't find soaps to be effective for a medium size collection. go with the pyrethrin or somethign stronger if you can find it.
> 
> i use decathlon + enstar II for all my insect killing needs and never have chronic problems any more.



I haven't checked for the availability of those here in the UK, but it does seem to me that you folk over in the US can get your hands on some effective chemistry, whereas it seems to me that here in Europe most of us have to deal with the "nanny state" approach. OK I'm being a bit cynical here but, it does seem that if it works, it's either banned or only available to registered green keepers. On the other hand the "nanny state" has a point, ... I grow indoors and I wouldn't want some of those effective chemistries going on in my living space.


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## The Mutant (Jan 24, 2015)

myxodex said:


> I haven't checked for the availability of those here in the UK, but it does seem to me that you folk over in the US can get your hands on some effective chemistry, whereas it seems to me that here in Europe most of us have to deal with the "nanny state" approach. OK I'm being a bit cynical here but, it does seem that if it works, it's either banned or only available to registered green keepers. On the other hand the "nanny state" has a point, ... I grow indoors and I wouldn't want some of those effective chemistries going on in my living space.


I couldn't agree more with your post. I like that Sweden is trying to environmentally friendly (I wonder how those chemicals with pyrethrin managed to sneak through? They'll probably be discontinued soon I guess), but sometimes you have to be unfriendly to get the job done.


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## Shiva (Jan 24, 2015)

Bjorn said:


> one pound of nuclear soap please.....




They probably would thrive on this. :evil:


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## Ozpaph (Jan 28, 2015)

Shiva said:


> They probably would thrive on this. :evil:



or mutate to the size of a cat and suck out all your blood while you're asleep.:rollhappy:


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## Ozpaph (Jan 28, 2015)

myxodex said:


> I haven't checked for the availability of those here in the UK, but it does seem to me that you folk over in the US can get your hands on some effective chemistry, whereas it seems to me that here in Europe most of us have to deal with the "nanny state" approach. OK I'm being a bit cynical here but, it does seem that if it works, it's either banned or only available to registered green keepers. On the other hand the "nanny state" has a point, ... I grow indoors and I wouldn't want some of those effective chemistries going on in my living space.



Same in Oz - so I import them from the USA. Simple. Effective. Problem gone (though Id never use them inside)


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## bullsie (Jan 29, 2015)

The Mutant said:


> I've also decided not to sell, trade or give away any plants to anyone. I really don't want anyone else to get these pests, especially from me, since they seem very difficult to get rid of. I had planned to sell most of my Phals during spring since I'm more interested in Pahps/Phrags now and I need the space. Because of the mite problem I've instead tossed the ones I had planned to sell and now I'm 14 plants shorter. I really don't want to think about how much money I threw away when I did this.



Oh No! Plants and bugs are a part of our planet. You want one, you got to take the other with it. We work to keep our plants clean but I doubt anyone here has been bug free their entire growing life (for some of us a single day would be appreciated). When you sell or trade, make it known up front you have 'livestock'. Serious orchid growers know it happens because it happens to them. Just one of the evils of orchid growing. We all put bug- free on our wish list right up there with that high $$ orchid that is out of our reach.


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## Paul (Feb 4, 2015)

Hi

*Neoseiulus californicus is your friend to kill them... no toxicity, and they live as long as they have something to eat (pollen + spider mites)

Sold in France as SPICAL +50 :wink:

*


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## TyroneGenade (Apr 6, 2015)

Well, my insecticidal soap arrived in the post today (http://www.amazon.com/Safer-Brand-I...r=8-3-fkmr1&keywords=Savona+Insecticidal+Soap ). Any advice? Is it suitable for indoor use? Any incompatibilities with SH growing?

Death to mealybugs!


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## Paph_LdyMacBeth (Apr 6, 2015)

Safers is pretty laid back stuff you can definitely use it in the house. I use it often. I've never had any issues with plants when using it, but I only grow phrags s/h. 

Sent from my BlackBerry Bold 9900 using Tapatalk


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## TyroneGenade (Apr 7, 2015)

Thanks, Paph_LdyMacBeth.

I sprayed this morning and drenched everything. I wish I had been more careful with my ebay purchases and avoided this issue all together.

Oddly, most of the bugs are focused on a single complex plant---not the plant that carried the parasite into the collection. I don't know why they love that plant to death...


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## TyroneGenade (Apr 12, 2015)

Sprayed twice with http://www.amazon.com/Safer-Brand-I...r=8-3-fkmr1&keywords=Savona+Insecticidal+Soap and am very impressed. All bugs dead, even those hiding in the bracts of the plants.


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