# Too Tired of Messing With It



## Rick (Aug 18, 2014)

This is how they started March 2012




I can't find the thread but in August 2013 the low K (low everything) feeders were only slightly ahead.


But as of July 2014 the difference is more obvious. Group on the left my old feeding regime of weekly feedings of 1/2 tsp/gal MSU using only RO water for fert makeup and in between irrigation. Plants on the right get whatever the rest of the GH gets. For the last year about daily feedings of enhanced K lite (boosted with a Mg/PO4/SO4 solution) at 10ppm N max. (conductivity <100 uS/cm)




Here's another comparison of the biggest potted low K fed versus a couple I put in baskets just before starting the split feeding trial.


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## Rick (Aug 18, 2014)

The two in baskets are big enough to bloom. They've also accelerated since hanging them up in brighter locations earlier this spring.

Time and space demands made me too tired to keep up the project. I was also feeling sorry for the MSU plants that seemed to be having a lot of problems staying in the pots and looking a bit haggard.


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## troy (Aug 18, 2014)

The plants on the right are fed a balanced fertilizer? on the left low k, all other variations are thr same?


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## SlipperFan (Aug 18, 2014)

Interesting, nonetheless.


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## gonewild (Aug 18, 2014)

troy said:


> The plants on the right are fed a balanced fertilizer? on the left low k, all other variations are thr same?



You have it reversed. The bigger plants are fed with low K.


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## troy (Aug 18, 2014)

Where did you get them and how much did you pay for them? You nursed them back to health


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## Rick (Aug 18, 2014)

troy said:


> The plants on the right are fed a balanced fertilizer? on the left low k, all other variations are thr same?



No, the plants on the right are getting the enhanced low K (K lite + extra Mg/PO4/SO4). The plants on the left are getting the old MSU regime I used for years.

But same size pots, same potting mix, sitting next to each other on the bench.


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## gonewild (Aug 18, 2014)

In the last picture with the baskets....
Are all 4 fed low K and the size difference attributed to being in the baskets??


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## Rick (Aug 18, 2014)

troy said:


> Where did you get them and how much did you pay for them? You nursed them back to health



They all came from the same compot I produced from a breeding I did several years ago.


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## troy (Aug 18, 2014)

Huh, big difference, the last few months alot of people have been talking about cutting back potsssium in fertilizers, they take it up excessively and causes the cell break down in leaves right? Inhibits the other good stuff from beiing absorbed?


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## Rick (Aug 18, 2014)

gonewild said:


> In the last picture with the baskets....
> Are all 4 fed low K and the size difference attributed to being in the baskets??



Yes for feeding regime.
The 2 in pots are the two largest of the 5 from the feeding trial.

The 2 that went into baskets were already growing faster than the plants in the feeding trial, so can't attribute the difference strictly due to basket vs pot. But they never slowed down, and possibly could be claimed I was able to increase growth potential by flooding more light/warmth and water to them. While I still was trying to be careful not to turn the pot substrates to mush.


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## Rick (Aug 18, 2014)

troy said:


> Huh, big difference, the last few months alot of people have been talking about cutting back potsssium in fertilizers, they take it up excessively and causes the cell break down in leaves right? Inhibits the other good stuff from beiing absorbed?



That was the theory I proposed in 2011 that ultimately came up with Klite. Check out this link from May 2011

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20716


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## gonewild (Aug 18, 2014)

Rick said:


> Yes for feeding regime.
> The 2 in pots are the two largest of the 5 from the feeding trial.
> 
> The 2 that went into baskets were already growing faster than the plants in the feeding trial, so can't attribute the difference strictly due to basket vs pot. But they never slowed down, and possibly could be claimed I was able to increase growth potential by flooding more light/warmth and water to them. While I still was trying to be careful not to turn the pot substrates to mush.



Now will you put the other two into baskets?
Would be interesting to see if they catch up to the bigger ones. Then you can attribute it to the baskets.

The faster growth could also be genetic.


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## troy (Aug 18, 2014)

Thats yur formula?


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## troy (Aug 18, 2014)

How often do you water? Plants in baskets


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## Rick (Aug 18, 2014)

gonewild said:


> Now will you put the other two into baskets?
> Would be interesting to see if they catch up to the bigger ones. Then you can attribute it to the baskets.
> 
> The faster growth could also be genetic.



Probably not unless I find more GH space, and a reason to keep this many lowii.

I know the basket system works, but I'm also curious how much easier potted systems can get with reduced feed rates. Based on these results with matched lowii, growing potted is more resilient with low K and frequent low N applications than the old "weakly weekly" regime I used to follow.


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## Rick (Aug 18, 2014)

troy said:


> Thats yur formula?



The specific K lite formula was a collaboration of Slippertalk members (namely Ray and Lance, Gonewild)


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## troy (Aug 18, 2014)

Potted plants the fertilizer soaks in the media, in baskets it runs off, I have to agree with you about baskets, in native habitat they transpire and absorb light in small amounts but enough to make a difference I use clear pots just the light penetration makes big difference


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## Rick (Aug 18, 2014)

troy said:


> How often do you water? Plants in baskets



Daily is certainly possible. I have a lot of mounted plants that are definitely daily sprayed. The baskets get at least a daily spritz, and a heavy water 3 or more times a week. Pots generally less than that. Anything under a hanging plant gets at least something daily.

It's definitely like driving a car. Brakes/gas based on conditions.


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## Rick (Aug 18, 2014)

gonewild said:


> The faster growth could also be genetic.



Certainly not impossible factor, but consider these all came from a single compot of a selfing. Also the two in baskets were usually in different places in the GH than the others (so also potentially brighter/warmer or whatever).

I was checking records and the pollination was in 4/2009, and they came out of flask around November 2010.

They were all pretty abused until I started my own low K adaptation in May 2011. I may have found a couple of resilient high K adapted in the group that ultimately went into the baskets, but given I was looking at roughly 50 seedlings at the time, I don't recall anything doing orders of magnitude better than the others. I don't recall when I put these two into baskets, and it could have been before I started playing with K. 

Klite didn't come out till around December/January 2011. But I had already started playing with baskets a full year before in December 2010.
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18566


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## NYEric (Aug 18, 2014)

baskets are very hard to maintain moisture in an apartment.


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## gonewild (Aug 18, 2014)

NYEric said:


> baskets are very hard to maintain moisture in an apartment.



Just hold match under ceiling sprinkler.


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## abax (Aug 19, 2014)

I don't have a control group, but my experience with K-lite reinforces your
experiment. The henry in the basket is growing quite fast for a Paph. as
well.


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## consettbay2003 (Aug 19, 2014)

But as of July 2014 the difference is more obvious. Group on the left my old feeding regime of weekly feedings of 1/2 tsp/gal MSU using only RO water for fert makeup and in between irrigation. Plants on the right get whatever the rest of the GH gets. For the last year about daily feedings of enhanced K lite (boosted with a Mg/PO4/SO4 solution) at 10ppm N max. (conductivity <100 uS/cm)

What is the recipe for your Mg/PO4/SO4 solution and how much would you
recommend per gallon of K-Lite @ 1/4 tsp/gal.?


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## Ozpaph (Aug 19, 2014)

that looks impressive.


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## Rick (Aug 19, 2014)

consettbay2003 said:


> What is the recipe for your Mg/PO4/SO4 solution and how much would you
> recommend per gallon of K-Lite @ 1/4 tsp/gal.?



I take magnesium hydoxide and run the pH down to about 6.0 with phosphoric acid,

Then a bit of epsom salt.

Then reduce the pH further (5.5) with sulfuric acid.

I realize this is not quantified, but the numbers/quantities are not in front of me at present.

I was shooting for an addition 2-4 ppm of Mg in the final mix and another 1-2ppm of P

I add about 1/4 tsp/gal of the concentrate to irrigation water.

The formula is very similar to Dynagrow's Bloom Boost Mag Pro (except this has a touch of potassium nitrate in it).

The K NO3 in the DG product is low enough that it will not add appreaciable K if you wanted to use in conjunction with K lite at low doses.


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## NYEric (Aug 19, 2014)

gonewild said:


> Just hold match under ceiling sprinkler.


!!


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## Rick (Aug 19, 2014)

NYEric said:


> !!



Given your propensity for keeping paphs on the stove this could workoke:


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## Migrant13 (Aug 19, 2014)

Rick, thanks for running the experiments and posting the results. Tough to beat actual research.


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## naoki (Aug 19, 2014)

Very cool, Rick. Did you happen to measure the pour-through of MSU vs K-Lite before repotting (i.e. degradation of the media)?


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## Justin (Aug 19, 2014)

which species are the plants by the way?


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## Brabantia (Aug 20, 2014)

Impressive results! 
The use of very small quantity of fertilizer is possible by using an inert substratum (mineral 100 %) which does not consume the nitrogen (mainly) and the other elements. If I remember me well you use dolomitic stones. 
I would like to know if the peoples who use a substrate made with bark (CHC, sphagnum ...) obtain so good results with such low quantities of fertilizer?
I already know that Ray prepares a solution at 40 ppm of nitrogen which is distributed one time per week (every 7 days?).


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## gonewild (Aug 20, 2014)

Brabantia said:


> Impressive results!
> The use of very small quantity of fertilizer is possible by using an inert substratum (mineral 100 %) which does not consume the nitrogen (mainly) and the other elements. If I remember me well you use dolomitic stones.
> I would like to know if the peoples who use a substrate made with bark (CHC, sphagnum ...) obtain so good results with such low quantities of fertilizer?
> I already know that Ray prepares a solution at 40 ppm of nitrogen which is distributed one time per week (every 7 days?).



Rick's pictures of the baskets show moss coming out of the basket and as I recall his media is mostly organic.


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## Rick (Aug 20, 2014)

Justin said:


> which species are the plants by the way?



Paph lowii


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## Rick (Aug 20, 2014)

gonewild said:


> Rick's pictures of the baskets show moss coming out of the basket and as I recall his media is mostly organic.



The potted stuff is usually CHC mix these days (some are in bark). The baskets seem to do best when they are only lined with moss and most of the internal is coarse limestone gravel (driveway grade). 

These two baskets of lowii started (pre low K) with mostly moss. They started good, but then slowed down. So they were reset with more rock, some CHC and less moss (strictly to line the gaps in the slats). A lot of the baskets get seeded with live moss.

Ferns and live moss have really taken off in the pots and floor of the greenhouse since I cut the feed way back.


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## Rick (Aug 20, 2014)

Brabantia said:


> Impressive results!
> The use of very small quantity of fertilizer is possible by using an inert substratum (mineral 100 %) which does not consume the nitrogen (mainly) and the other elements.



The potting mix for the experiment was 3-4 parts CHC, 1 part charcoal, and 1 part sponge rock. No rock/oyster shell. I added equal styrofoam peanuts for increased drainage to both groups. 

I didn't repot during the trial. But the potting mix in the high rate/MSU feeding group was in much worse shape than for the low feed rate/Klite group. If the potting mix got too low in those pots I would top them up with fresh mix. I never had to do that for the low feed group.

Maybe if I was repotting every 6 months they might have done better.:wink:


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## Rick (Aug 20, 2014)

Migrant13 said:


> Rick, thanks for running the experiments and posting the results. Tough to beat actual research.



Thanks
The parameters and variable controls are still not as clean as a real experiment. But after working in a tox lab 8 hours/day, I'm not as keen to turn my GH into another lab.


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## Rick (Aug 20, 2014)

naoki said:


> Very cool, Rick. Did you happen to measure the pour-through of MSU vs K-Lite before repotting (i.e. degradation of the media)?



Conductivity?

No. I was on a short time fuse, and didn't think about it.


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## troy (Aug 20, 2014)

All this is about lowering k because it blocks other minerals from uptake to the proper spots in the plant and destroys cells in healthy leaves causes them to turn yellow and mushy ?


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## Rick (Aug 20, 2014)

troy said:


> All this is about lowering k because it blocks other minerals from uptake to the proper spots in the plant and destroys cells in healthy leaves causes them to turn yellow and mushy ?



Its rarely that extreme.

I was more concerned about ease of growing, long term success, high seedling mortality, growing difficult species, resistance to disease.

I started growing in 2001 with MSU and still have some of my original plants. But I've composted more than what I thought was normal mortality over the years, and some plants were always stunted and struggling for years.

If you note the time frame on this study (2.5 years), nothing turned to mush.

But the roots finally gave out on the MSU group, which was a very common occurrence in mine and many other collections. Another 6 months and I probably would have seen some death.


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## troy (Aug 20, 2014)

I've been using this in small quantities with organic fertilizer, for one example paph otogozen I don't have before pics but they were tiny when I got them to ultra busty


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## troy (Aug 20, 2014)

All my paphs are growing like that, I could send more plant pics current but not before pics


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## Brabantia (Aug 21, 2014)

Rick said:


> Thanks
> The parameters and variable controls are still not as clean as a real experiment. But after working in a tox lab 8 hours/day, I'm not as keen to turn my GH into another lab.


Me Too, but more more it seems to me that I am not retired, I continue to work in a laboratory full of orchids at home! The passion when it hold us ....


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## Rick (Aug 21, 2014)

troy said:


> I've been using this in small quantities with organic fertilizer, for one example paph otogozen I don't have before pics but they were tiny when I got them to ultra busty



Can't see any numbers on the lable to comment.

Most folks are running on luck and just using tiny quantities of weak stuff in a tap water with naturally high Ca to dilute out the K in the fert mix.

Most of the problems with the high K feeds are experienced with strict RO water use, high N application rates, and longer term exposures.


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## Erythrone (Aug 21, 2014)

Is Microlife Plus C the stuff you are using, troy ? If so we can read all the numbers ont the label here:

http://www.microbelife.com/files/5513/7046/5390/LG21529-plus-C-16.pdf


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## troy (Aug 21, 2014)

Yes it is, I got a sample pack from my hydro shop, are you familiar with it?


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## troy (Aug 21, 2014)

The photosynthesis plus


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## troy (Aug 21, 2014)

This has low potassium but the potassium is sulfate not nitrate, nitrate is absorbed faster other ingredients are phosphates help the microbial life. and it's mostly water


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## Chicago Chad (Aug 21, 2014)

I believe you are referring to this one:

http://www.hydrofarm.com/product.php?itemid=14064

The problem is the company still does not ship outside of CA to my knowledge. Want to mail me some Gatorade?oke:


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## troy (Aug 21, 2014)

When I talk to hydroshop guy I'll get all the info


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## naoki (Aug 21, 2014)

So why do you use this product for orchids, Troy? For the protection against disease (e.g. Bacillus)? I wonder how effective it is in the coarse media like bark (not soil). There is one nitrogen fixer, but it is probably easier to use normal fertilizer for N. The fungi in there doesn't seem to be mycorrhizae known to be associated with Orchidaceae. (I'm not discounting your success, just I'm curious about the reason why it could be beneficial for orchid cultivation).


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## troy (Aug 21, 2014)

Alan kotch said something similar but it was busy I didn't catch all of what he said, he said something like there was 2 beneficials in there that would help, I know for a fact theres one strain of mychoroizal type organism that live on paph roots that help break down the elements into food for the roots, if you know more about this fill me in please, I always welcome info


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## troy (Aug 21, 2014)

It is not made for orchids, although in the wild habitat these type of organisms are everywhere so I thought give it a try in minute doses it's free


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## troy (Aug 21, 2014)

Not( minute ) what I meant was small doses. I've used it twice in three months all my plants seem ok


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## Erythrone (Aug 21, 2014)

troy said:


> Yes it is, I got a sample pack from my hydro shop, are you familiar with it?



No, I don't use this product  but I used Sub culture B and M


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## troy (Aug 21, 2014)

What is sub culture B & M?


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## Erythrone (Aug 21, 2014)

Here are a few links:

http://generalhydroponics.com/site/index.php/products/supplements/subculture/subculture-b/

http://generalhydroponics.com/site/index.php/products/supplements/subculture/subculture_m/

Actually I don't use them for mycorhysal purposal. I just hope some organisms are usefull to control some pathogens. I used it for1 year and my collection is almost disease free... But I changed many other parameters.


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## Rick (Aug 22, 2014)

Troy

The use of ferts/supplements from a product standpoint is not very meaningful if you don't give quanitities of how much is used in your application. It will also be important to know if your base water is RO, or local drinking water (with its appropriate chemistry).

Yes this product has a relative low K, but no Ca or Mg listed. So if you use a large amount of it (which I doubt you do) in RO water then you can actually be giving a fairly high dose of K with no Ca or Mg.
 
But chances are you are using small doses of this with a water with plenty of soluble Ca/Mg in it.


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## troy (Aug 22, 2014)

I use arrowhead spring water theres calcium in it but I also use cal mag I'll mix a tea spoon and mix with a teaspoon of seaweed supplement once a week I only use arrowhead spring water for fertilizing and flushing it has a ph of 7.5 without fertilizer with fertilizer it drops to 6.5 I mix up ferilizers quite a bit right now I've been using organics my other is 5-2-1 derived from fish emulsion, bone meal, fermented mollasas and phosphoric acid I use half a teaspoon of that


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## Ray (Aug 23, 2014)

troy said:


> theres one strain of mychoroizal type organism that live on paph roots that help break down the elements into food for the roots



Seems to me that's beneficial to plants _in situ_, but of little value to plants fed with liquid fertilizer solutions, as, for the most part, the nutrients are as "broken down" as they can be for the plant already.


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## AdamD (Aug 24, 2014)

Been wanting to post this for awhile. Remember when I asked about the use of K-Lite on heavy feeders, i.e. catasetinae? Well...








Leaf span is over 2' wide, leaves abot 6" at their widest, plant is about 2'6" tall. P-Bulb is bigger around than an average male adult wrist. Fed at half tsp. added to RO water every watering, + 1 drop Superthrive. It's the biggest catasetum I've ever seen in person. And growing season isn't over yet...
Not trying to toot my own horn at all, just giving thanks and testament to those who've led the way for improved understanding of plant nutrition. Thank you all

Sorry for grainy iPhone photo. I'm not a pro with it like Dot!


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## SlipperFan (Aug 24, 2014)

I'd rather be able to grow pseudobulbs like that!


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## AdamD (Aug 24, 2014)

Oh, forgot to mention this is an unbloomed "seedling."


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## Rick (Aug 26, 2014)

AdamD said:


> Oh, forgot to mention this is an unbloomed "seedling."



That's really cool Adam

I only have one Catestum, and the only other big bulb making deciduos thing I have is a Calanthes vestista.

The Calanthes hasn't skipped a beat since going low K (low everything).

The Catesetum (and my Gongoras) are still great growers, but blooming less frequently. 

This spring I boosted up the Mg and P a tiny bit more and got a big flush of blooms in all the Gongoras.

The Catesetum is putting up great growths this year, but hasn't sent up a viable spike yet. Last year I did get 2 nice spikes of male flowers late in the season.


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