# Erwinia on Delrosi



## The Mutant (Sep 29, 2013)

I have what looks like Erwinia on my Delrosi, and it has had it ever since I got it, but I never understood what it was. It looks exactly as is described here: Erwinia, full of yellow, round spots, some of which have started to turn brown. Also, a soft-ish brown streak has appeared on one of the leaves. It hasn't started to smell yet, but I expect it will when it gets completely taken over.







The thing is, I can't cut anything off from it, since the entire plant is infected. I don't know what to do, except keep it isolated and try to keep it dry. :sob:


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## Ozpaph (Sep 29, 2013)

looks unusual.
If in doubt....use cinnamon. Cant hurt.


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## The Mutant (Sep 29, 2013)

I know, which was why I didn't react at first, but if you read the description of Erwinia on Paphs, it appears to be what it is.

I only have ground cinnamon, how should I apply it?


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## Ray (Sep 29, 2013)

Check out the various cinnamon concoctions on my "Home Remedies" page.

However, erwinia is systemic; it is doubtful that a topical application of any cinnamon form will have a significant effect. You need a good systemic treatment. I don't know how sensitive paphs are to copper, but something like Phyton 27 might be worth looking into.


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## Justin (Sep 29, 2013)

it is far past the stage where cinnamon would help. definitely spray it with Pyton 27 if you can get it or a similar copper-containing spray. if you catch it today or tomorrow the plant could make it. you will probably have to cut out that growth entirely. use a sterilized tool for all cuts.

after you save the plant, you should address the cultural issue that helped foster this. looks light it may have been kept too wet. air movement is very important. also, do you have enough calcium in your water supply?


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## Dido (Sep 29, 2013)

all delenatii crosses i have dont like it wet, and dryer then any other Paph kind. So sphag is bad at least for mine.


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## Wendy (Sep 29, 2013)

Are both growths affected? I would remove this growth back to healthy tissue and treat with systemic if you can.


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## gonewild (Sep 29, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> and it has had it ever since I got it,



How long have you had the plant?

Has it spread or remained the same as when you got it?


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## The Mutant (Sep 29, 2013)

I've had it since the 26:th of May this year, and it came with these yellow spots, but I didn't realize what they were. They have gotten worse and all three fans are affected, which was why I said I can't cut anything off, because to remove the infected parts, I would have to remove all three growths. 

I think the hot summer, together with high humidity has worsened the infection. I have a fan in the kitchen, where I've kept it, so air movement has not been the problem I think.

We have no Phyton 27 available here in Sweden, but I hope I might be able to get some help from one of the members of the Swedish orchid forum...


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## The Mutant (Sep 29, 2013)

Here's the least affected growth when I had gotten the plant this spring (unfortunately, I never took a photo of it from the other side, where the most affected growth was, and still is):






Here's the same growth today:


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## Erythrone (Sep 29, 2013)

I never saw bacterial rot looking like your spots. But I don't say it is not bacterial rot...

The soft-ish brown streak on the upper leaf llooks has a more familiar look to me!

Do you have some pest on your plant? Pests like thrips?


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## Justin (Sep 29, 2013)

Try a copper product like this:

http://www.gardeners.com/Copper-Fungicide-RTU/8586856,default,pd.html?SC=XNET9221&utm_campaign=cse&utm_medium=googleshopping&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&kwid=productads-plaid^43980191318-sku^8586856-adType^PLA-device^c-adid^30951999398


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## Wendy (Sep 29, 2013)

The spots don't worry me too much (maybe they should but I had a few on my plants in the past that amounted to nothing) but the brown, wet streak on the leaf does. I'd say that is erwinea and would for sure try to cut that out. It will kill the plant very quickly.


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## Secundino (Sep 29, 2013)

From end of may to end of september - that does not sound like Erwinia to me... Al least, those infections I had were much quicker... I am speaking of days, a week and a half...
None of my Paphs sits so deep in the substrate (bark and volcanic), but if it works, don't change. Why don't you want to try aspirin-water?


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## The Mutant (Sep 29, 2013)

No pests on the plant.

I know Erwinia will kill it quickly, but don't know if I can cut it out, since it disappears down the crown of the growth. The spots have started to melt together, and are getting a sort of wet look to them, so they're working their way to look exactly like that brown streak, I think. I honestly believe the plant is too far gone, and since the whole of it is affected, I think the only thing is to toss it. 

*Justin:* I've had problems before ordering anything liquid from outside Sweden, so I don't think I can use your link. As far as I can tell, copper based biocides (?) are not allowed in Sweden.


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## The Mutant (Sep 29, 2013)

Secundino said:


> From end of may to end of september - that does not sound like Erwinia to me... Al least, those infections I had were much quicker... I am speaking of days, a week and a half...
> None of my Paphs sits so deep in the substrate (bark and volcanic), but if it works, don't change. Why don't you want to try aspirin-water?


Hmm... Could aspirin water work on Erwinia? The leaf with the brown streak, only has that brown streak on the underside of the leaf, to upper side seems completely normal.

I normally don't keep them as far down in the substrate as this one is either, but its root system are just underneath the top most sphagnum layer.


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## Trithor (Sep 29, 2013)

My two cents worth,.... If that is erwinia, it is the slowest and least virulent strain I have ever heard of. It normally proceeds in a matter of days to total destruction of the whole affected hand.
My recent experience has reinforced one thing for me. Remove the plant from any potential contact with any other plants!
Next, unpot it, wash it, remove any areas that can be cut away within reason. use a scissors or a blade soaked and still wet with chorine (Jik or similar). The wet chlorine rubs off on the cut edge and helps sterilize it. Repot the plant in a well draining mix, no moss! Cinnamon and asprin, both well worth trying, (don't know how effective they are, but they cant do much harm. Keep the plant on the dry side, good air circulation and watch and wait. Don't just throw it away, don't start major surgery, don't panic, the reality is as it stands you have nothing further to loose. You stand a fair chance that it will survive and although it will look a bit sad for a while, it will grow well. Just don't let it socialise with your other plants, strict solitary confinement, somewhere where you can chat and give moral support and encouragement


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## The Mutant (Sep 29, 2013)

Trithor said:


> My two cents worth,.... If that is erwinia, it is the slowest and least virulent strain I have ever heard of. It normally proceeds in a matter of days to total destruction of the whole affected hand.
> My recent experience has reinforced one thing for me. Remove the plant from any potential contact with any other plants!
> Next, unpot it, wash it, remove any areas that can be cut away within reason. use a scissors or a blade soaked and still wet with chorine (Jik or similar). The wet chlorine rubs off on the cut edge and helps sterilize it. Repot the plant in a well draining mix, no moss! Cinnamon and asprin, both well worth trying, (don't know how effective they are, but they cant do much harm. Keep the plant on the dry side, good air circulation and watch and wait. Don't just throw it away, don't start major surgery, don't panic, the reality is as it stands you have nothing further to loose. You stand a fair chance that it will survive and although it will look a bit sad for a while, it will grow well. Just don't let it socialise with your other plants, strict solitary confinement, somewhere where you can chat and give moral support and encouragement


Haha! Thanks Trithor! I think I might have gone a bit drama queen when I declared it Erwinia. I took a moist paper towel on that brown streak and it rubs off? But what on earth is it? Could it be some sort of fungus? 

I will get aspirin tomorrow (too late now I'm afraid) and treat it. It's in isolation now, standing close to my fan.

Should I try to rub the spots with some alcohol or is that bad for the plant?

I'm feeling so much better now. It has _something_, but that something doesn't seem like insta death at least.

I got Erwinia on one of my Phals and that moved super fast. I didn't react about these yellow spots, until I read the description of Erwinia on Paphs in the link, because it's spot (ha. ha. ha...) on.


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## gonewild (Sep 29, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> I've had it since the 26:th of May this year, and it came with these yellow spots, but I didn't realize what they were.



It is not Erwinia. It is probably a fungal infection. It may only be spot infections and not systemic. No need to cut away leaves since it is obviously already present. Best solution is to treat with fungicide.


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## The Mutant (Sep 29, 2013)

gonewild said:


> It is not Erwinia. It is probably a fungal infection. It may only be spot infections and not systemic. No need to cut away leaves since it is obviously already present. Best solution is to treat with fungicide.


Thanks Lance, God, I'm glad it's not Erwinia! My beloved Delrosi.

By the way, should I still keep it closer to the fan, or will that spread the pores around more? Does fungus dislike more air movement?


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## gonewild (Sep 29, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> Thanks Lance, God, I'm glad it's not Erwinia! My beloved Delrosi.
> 
> By the way, should I still keep it closer to the fan, or will that spread the pores around more? Does fungus dislike more air movement?



Fungus grows best in still stagnant air conditions so increasing the air movement will help do prevent the fungal conditions. 

Some fungus disperse spores through water and not air. This is probably the case with what your plant has. 

If you are not seeing this spread to other plants in the amount of time you have had the plant then it may not be very contagious. It may very well be the result of this plant having some metabolic condition that encourages the fungal growth. This is exactly the type of infection that excesses of certain nutrients may cause to manifest.


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## The Mutant (Sep 29, 2013)

gonewild said:


> Fungus grows best in still stagnant air conditions so increasing the air movement will help do prevent the fungal conditions.
> 
> Some fungus disperse spores through water and not air. This is probably the case with what your plant has.
> 
> If you are not seeing this spread to other plants in the amount of time you have had the plant then it may not be very contagious. It may very well be the result of this plant having some metabolic condition that encourages the fungal growth. This is exactly the type of infection that excesses of certain nutrients may cause to manifest.


Thanks again Lance, really appreciated.

I haven't noticed any of the others showing any kind of similar symptoms, but I'll keep an eye out.

Do you know which nutrients, or is it just general imbalance on nutrients that may cause it? Apparently, it has gotten worse since I got it, so it would be good to know (especially if it might be prone to get this particular type of fungus).


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## The Mutant (Sep 29, 2013)

I'm about to order a fungicide, but I'm wondering if this will work on Paphs? It's apparently a fungus, trichoderma, that's used as a fungicide. Is this dangerous to Paphs? It's used on indoor plants among other things.


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## gonewild (Sep 29, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> Thanks again Lance, really appreciated.
> 
> I haven't noticed any of the others showing any kind of similar symptoms, but I'll keep an eye out.



Without trying to start an argument and only giving my opinion.
Based on trials and reports here on ST it appears that the main nutrient problem could be Potassium. Infections like this are what I think of when folks refer to potassium toxicity. 

But also we must consider fungal infections just happen sometimes by simple exposure. Much like athletes foot, toenail fungus and ringworm on human skin..... Why do some people get infected and others do not? Once infected the fungus does not go away eaisly without treatment.


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## polyantha (Sep 29, 2013)

I agree that this is not erwinia. Looks more like a fungus or virus to me.


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## The Mutant (Sep 29, 2013)

gonewild said:


> Without trying to start an argument and only giving my opinion.
> Based on trials and reports here on ST it appears that the main nutrient problem could be Potassium. Infections like this are what I think of when folks refer to potassium toxicity.
> 
> But also we must consider fungal infections just happen sometimes by simple exposure. Much like athletes foot, toenail fungus and ringworm on human skin..... Why do some people get infected and others do not? Once infected the fungus does not go away eaisly without treatment.


Thanks Lance. So this could be caused by too much K in other words? 

Since it had this infection when I got it, I wonder what I did to make it worse... I'll never understand flowers and chemistry I think. 

I'm going to see if I can find something more besides the fungicide I asked about. I want to treat it now, but have nothing on hand.


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## The Mutant (Sep 29, 2013)

That's it, I officially hate Sweden. I can't find any fungicide, except the one listed above, and another, sulfur based one. The problem is that they work against different types of fungus, and I don't know which one is eating my Delrosi. :sob:


*EDIT:*
YES! I've finally gotten hold of that person I was hoping for could/would help me, and he can!

Oh, God, what a day! I'm not meant to have Paphs, they are too nerve wracking for my mental health... :crazy:


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## Secundino (Sep 29, 2013)

I don't believe there is something like K- toxicity. But apart from this:

It's hard to believe that your plant needs a treatment right now, in this moment, after some months of fungal infection. That plant obviously is not going to die tomorrow. 
And it's not very frecuent that neither you or someone in your neighborhood hasn't got any aspirins...
As trithor said, keep it apart from the other, healthy ones, there is never to much ventilation, change substrate and keep it on the drier side. Of course do spores fly through the air! Always, at all times! And they need far less 'wind' than the air movement Paphios enjoy! But a fungus spore will not infect a healthy plant, unless there are wounds, open tissues. So, don't rub to hard...
And _never_ touch first this plant and then the other, healthy plants. Make a kind of quarantine routine. Strenghten your plants, fungal infections are typical of autumn, falling temperatures and very high humidity during nights, less light.
And please, there are very good reasons for not selling every biocide in the next shop...!


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## The Mutant (Sep 29, 2013)

Secundino said:


> I don't believe there is something like K- toxicity. But apart from this:
> 
> It's hard to believe that your plant needs a treatment right now, in this moment, after some months of fungal infection. That plant obviously is not going to die tomorrow.
> And it's not very frecuent that neither you or someone in your neighborhood hasn't got any aspirins...
> ...


No, but it feels good to know I have something that hopefully will work; it means I won't have trouble sleeping because I'm trying to find solutions to the problem. Might sound silly, but I get very _engaged_ (read: obsessed) with my Paphs, especially if there's something wrong with them. Now, I can let go and look forward to tomorrow. 

No rubbing, I haven't touched it after testing with the tissue. And this guy is now considered having the black plague. Hopefully, this won't lead to my washing my hands too often, I already have a problem not to...

Why should I change the substrate? I will do it when I have something to treat it with, but now it feels a bit pointless, since I'll have to do it again after starting the treatment. 

And no, I don't have Aspirin, since they don't work very well for me, and I'm an unsocial bastard, so I avoid my neighbors as much as possible. I don't even greet them if I can help it.

I know that, but there should be something, not crop-oriented that you need about a 1000 different permissions to even order, available on the web at least. I know why they're so regulated, I'm not that stupid, thank you very much.


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## ALToronto (Sep 29, 2013)

I use a sulphur spray, and it's more of a preventive than a curative. Works well on fungus gnats, too. Still, it would be my first solution for this type of slow-growing rot. If you're going to try Aspirin, make sure to crush the tablet first before dissolving it - otherwise, it will take forever to dissolve.


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## gonewild (Sep 29, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> That's it, I officially hate Sweden. I can't find any fungicide, except the one listed above, and another, sulfur based one. The problem is that they work against different types of fungus, and I don't know which one is eating my Delrosi. :sob:
> 
> 
> *EDIT:*
> ...



Go to the Pharmacy and buy an antifungal cream or liquid that is for human use. Try applying it directly to the infected spot just as if it was on your own skin. It might work.


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## gonewild (Sep 29, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> Thanks Lance. So this could be caused by too much K in other words?



That is one of the points of the K-lite theory. 
But excess K probably won't cause the fungus to grow but it may well encourage it to grow or provide the correct nutrient balance in the plant tissue that provides a good host for the fungus.



> Since it had this infection when I got it, I wonder what I did to make it worse... I'll never understand flowers and chemistry I think.



Maybe you did nothing to cause it to get worse. Since it already had it when you got it the problem was already there. It it is caused by a nutrient excess it takes a long time for the plant to loose the excess, especially if you are providing high amounts of the nutrients.


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## gonewild (Sep 29, 2013)

Secundino said:


> I don't believe there is something like K- toxicity



Do you believe that fungus requires nutrition? Do you know that plant tissue that is rich in potassium does not provide a more robust media for fungal growth than tissue low in K?


> It's hard to believe that your plant needs a treatment right now, in this moment, after some months of fungal infection. That plant obviously is not going to die tomorrow.



Agreed. In fact the infected spots are rather minor at this point.



> And it's not very frecuent that neither you or someone in your neighborhood hasn't got any aspirins...



I don't believe aspirins will help oke:



> Of course do spores fly through the air! Always, at all times!



Think again about this statement. Not all fungus species produce airborn spores. I bet spores from this type of fungus is waterborn.



> But a fungus spore will not infect a healthy plant, unless there are wounds, open tissues.



Are you sure about this? Only in a wound? 



> Strenghten your plants, fungal infections are typical of autumn, falling temperatures and very high humidity during nights, less light.



This is exactly what the low potassium K-lite fertilizer seems to do, strengthen the plants.


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## Ozpaph (Sep 29, 2013)

lightly dust the affected parts with cinnamon after using the fungicide (surely they have Mancozeb in Sweden ((or EBay)))


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## Trithor (Sep 30, 2013)

Chances are that if it IS a fungal infection, it is a fungus which requires moist and humid conditions to spread, so simply moving the plant to a lower humidity area with a high air circulation will control the problem. 
My plants with erwinia have stabilized with this same treatment and are looking like at least 90% of them will make it. I am sure that your low virulence infection (with whatever it is) will improve with those simple measures. If you go to any aquarium shop/pet shop, you should be able to get a small bottle of fungicide which will work for your Delrosi as well. I would use that fungicide in a dilute form with a cotton swab to wash the marks off the plant and then give it a general drench with the same solution and continue with the dry and air movement treatment.
(I say this all with the assumption that it is fungal, whatever it is it is very low virulence and does not seem to cause damage to the underlying tissue to any great extent. If it was my plant, I would simply try to wipe the spots off with a chlorine solution, and then 'watch and wait') I really don't think you should panic too much.


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## Stone (Sep 30, 2013)

Mutant, Its not erwinia so you can at least rule that out. It is a terrible problem and you should at least spray a good contact fungicide like chlorothalonil and insecticide/miticide on all your plants. I had exactly the same problem and asked here as well with no definitive answers. I've tried googling, books etc but no luck so I don't even know if its bacterial, fungal or insect or mite! I would be eternally grateful to anyone who can finally tell me what it is. Meanwhile you can look through this thread I started a while back. Please if you do find out what it is let me know! I'm getting it much less now and I don't really know why but I seem to remember it was worst in summer.
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28851


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## The Mutant (Sep 30, 2013)

*Trithor:* I'll do as you suggest, and go to a local pet shop. The other thing I'm getting, is something anti-bacterial that seems to kill most nasty things, while still being environmental friendly (sounds too good to be true, but I'm willing to give it a shot).



Stone said:


> Mutant, Its not erwinia so you can at least rule that out. It is a terrible problem and you should at least spray a good contact fungicide like chlorothalonil and insecticide/miticide on all your plants. I had exactly the same problem and asked here as well with no definitive answers. I've tried googling, books etc but no luck so I don't even know if its bacterial, fungal or insect or mite! I would be eternally grateful to anyone who can finally tell me what it is. Meanwhile you can look through this thread I started a while back. Please if you do find out what it is let me know! I'm getting it much less now and I don't really know why but I seem to remember it was worst in summer.
> http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28851


YES! This is exactly what I have on my Delrosi! I'll add insectide to the shopping list. That fungicide is not available here, unfortunately.


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## Justin (Sep 30, 2013)

i had this exact problem, and it killed several plants. i originally thought it was erwina too. 

i had been using R/O water with a hydroponic fertilizer that i assumed had enough Calcium and Magnesium. I controlled the immediate symptons with Phyton 27, then switched to tapwater and low-K fert. I also started keeping my growing space more clean and was more vigilant about cutting off old brown leaves, etc.

After 6 months the problem was completely gone. I still use tapwater, but this year I went back to a standard urea/ammonia 30-30-30 fert (1/4 tsp per gal) but rotate in K-Lite a couple times a month (also 1/4 tsp per gallon). Have had zero recurrence.


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## Trithor (Sep 30, 2013)

How about taking the plant to your local university department of Microbiology and try and convince someone to do a couple of slides and see if they can identify the culprit. I have always found our local university to be very helpful, and it would make a huge difference to your treatment chances if you had an idea if it is bacterial, chemical or fungal (obviously viral would be sad as you would end up tossing your plant).


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## dodidoki (Sep 30, 2013)

I think it is not erwinia. Erwinia spreads fast and base of plant gets rot within few days. No effective therapy only prevention can be useful, I use bleach, 1 ml/ l, doesn't hurt plants but helps to prevent spread of infection.


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## The Mutant (Sep 30, 2013)

Justin said:


> i had this exact problem, and it killed several plants. i originally thought it was erwina too.
> 
> i had been using R/O water with a hydroponic fertilizer that i assumed had enough Calcium and Magnesium. I controlled the immediate symptons with Phyton 27, then switched to tapwater and low-K fert. I also started keeping my growing space more clean and was more vigilant about cutting off old brown leaves, etc.
> 
> After 6 months the problem was completely gone. I still use tapwater, but this year I went back to a standard urea/ammonia 30-30-30 fert (1/4 tsp per gal) but rotate in K-Lite a couple times a month (also 1/4 tsp per gallon). Have had zero recurrence.


I'm using K-lite again, not exclusively though, so hopefully it'll strengthen the plants.



Trithor said:


> How about taking the plant to your local university department of Microbiology and try and convince someone to do a couple of slides and see if they can identify the culprit. I have always found our local university to be very helpful, and it would make a huge difference to your treatment chances if you had an idea if it is bacterial, chemical or fungal (obviously viral would be sad as you would end up tossing your plant).


Again, a great idea. I'm going to call them and ask if they would be interested. Thanks *Trithor*!


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