# Water in the crown of Phrags.



## PHRAG (Oct 19, 2006)

If I were to water once a day, and get water in the crown, how good are my chances of rotting my besseae to death? The watering system I bought is working, but a little too good. It gets water in the crown of the plants. It will water a small amount every afternoon around 3, and I have the fan on pretty high, so I have good air movement.

Is it better to not water for a week and have crispy roots, or water every day into the crown and rot them to death? :rollhappy:


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Oct 19, 2006)

Water in the crown is really only a problem in cool dark conditions, like at night. How long is the water staying in the crowns and are they wet at night?

Jon
________
Volcano Vaporizers


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## PHRAG (Oct 19, 2006)

The water comes on at 4 p.m. for just a few seconds, enough to keep the rootzone wet. The lights stay on until 7 p.m. and the fan until midnight. The nightime temp of the greenhouse has been hovering at 73 degrees F. 

I guess I will just have to risk the chance of rot. I know for sure the roots would be crispy after a week of no water.


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## Heather (Oct 19, 2006)

Any chance of watering in the morning when it has the entire day to dry out?


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## Heather (Oct 19, 2006)

Another thought is to turn the fans off, and not water. That will keep the plants from drying out so quickly. How often do you normally water?


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Oct 19, 2006)

I would set the timer to water in the morning and leave the fan on 24 hours a day.

Jon
________
Honda Mobilio


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## gonewild (Oct 19, 2006)

I think you will not have a problem if you water as you first planned. You still have 4 hours of light (heat) to dry off the plants. 

I mist my besseae hybrid seedlings at about 4 each afternoon. Temperatures are at about 75F and the humidity is about 65%. The heat from the lights dry off the plants well before lights out. I've not had any cases of rot to date.

Good air circulation all night will continue to dry any leftover water.

What is your humidity staying at?


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## PHRAG (Oct 19, 2006)

Well, I can't set the water to come on in the morning. There is a long explanation why, I just don't feel like writing it all out. So 4 pm is the earliest it can come on.

I will set the fan to stay on 24 hours a day. I will see by 10 p.m. tonight if the plants have dried out I guess.

My night time humidity is set at 70%. 

I am going to let it ride. If they die, I will have learned something I guess.


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## gonewild (Oct 19, 2006)

In the past when you water do you normally keep water out of the crown?


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## PHRAG (Oct 19, 2006)

I never get water in the crown. I am super paranoid about it. I don't get water in the crown or on the leaves if I can help it.


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## gonewild (Oct 19, 2006)

You mean you never give them a bath? Not even on Saturday?


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## Heather (Oct 19, 2006)

PHRAG said:


> I will see by 10 p.m. tonight if the plants have dried out I guess.



I wondered how long you would have to watch. If they are dry, then we'll all feel much better. 

You're in a much dryer climate than I, but I am generally also, just as paranoid and don't get water in the crowns, and if I do, I blot it out carefully with the corner of a paper towel (very absorbant VIVA towels of course!) 

I recently had two growths on a plant that (for me) has been prone to rot, come down with basal rot, overnight, a week after I had watered. WTF? I removed both growths and so far so good, but I really only have one more. Sucks. Doesn't help that it seems to spread like wildfire. 

Finger's crossed!!


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## gonewild (Oct 19, 2006)

We always water our plants overhead unless the conditions are very damp, dark, and wet. But these conditions don't really happen indoors under lights.
Always want the crowns and leaves free of water by the time the night temperature drops. I've always grown this way.

Are you referring only to besseae about not wetting the leaves or all your orchids? I'm very curious, maybe I'm way behind the times.

Here is a picture I shot a few minutes ago. Now remember I still have 2.5 hours of warm light left in the day. and several more hours before the temperature drops below 70F.


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## Heather (Oct 19, 2006)

I never water after 4 at this time of year - only two more hours of sunlight. 

Gas heat get's turned on tomorrow. Thank goodness.


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## gonewild (Oct 19, 2006)

Heather said:


> I never water after 4 at this time of year - only two more hours of sunlight.
> 
> Gas heat get's turned on tomorrow. Thank goodness.



Normally we don't water after 4 either and if we were using sunlight we definitely would not. But our plants are 8 inches under the warm lights so it is basically like 4 pm.

When you water during the day do you keep the foliage completely dry?
Do you ever wash the leaves?


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## PHRAG (Oct 19, 2006)

I water at the kitchen sink. And I grow in S/H too, so this is what I do. I fill the pot up to the point where water comes up to the bottom set of leaves, and overflows the top of the pot a little. That's how I water everything I own. Paphs, Phrags, Phals, and vandaceous plants like my Neofinetia. I don't get water on the leaves or in the crown at all, on anything I grow except one or two of my tiny japanese species. I sometimes take a damp paper towel and wipe down the leaves if the plants look dusty.

I had a major rot problem on a Neofinetia once. Lost a couple of leaves in the crown and never got water in there again. 

I think as long as there is air movement and light and warmth, there are no problems. That's what everyone says anyway. I just prefer not to let my orchids "shower". They get baths.


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## Heather (Oct 19, 2006)

If I use a sprayer to water (which I generally do not now because it takes too long and doesn't work well with S/H) the leaves get wet. Otherwise, I too, bathe (sponge bathe to be exact). If I am in a misting mode, it is only in the morning. I try to mist my Mexi every morning.


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Oct 19, 2006)

I typically water the whole plant, leaves and all if I'm watering in the morning. Some plants I do not get the plant wet though, because from past experience they have rotted even after all the precautions. Namely my praestans, nearly lost the thing and it is one of my most treasured ones. It will never again have water on it's leaves or crown.

Jon
________
Extreme vaporizers


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## gonewild (Oct 19, 2006)

PHRAG said:


> I just prefer not to let my orchids "shower". They get baths.



So while dads away the chids are going to be sneaking showers!


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## gonewild (Oct 19, 2006)

Not criticizing anyones growing methods but...

I doubt watering the plants overhead during the warmth of day is the cause of rot. Most likely the water is a catalyst for something out of order in the growing environment, which might be corrected. I'm curious if the losses from getting the whole plant wet is something most people experience.

Without considering rain, in the habitat of South American tropical plants the forest and foliage is often completely dry during the day. During the night it is the complete opposite, the foliage is completely soaked by condensation.
Orchids in the Amazon region are watered every night. At higher elevations this is also true, but often the plants are wet day and night.

Is there an explanation why watering the plants overhead under home conditions will induce rot?


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## PHRAG (Oct 19, 2006)

Additives in the water maybe?


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Oct 19, 2006)

Only a hypothesis, but the constant moving of air and the breeding of plants is what I blame.

Plants in the wild seem to be tougher and more resilient than captive plants, and we don't have as much survival of the fittest going on in captivity. I run a lot of air movement and very high humidity and 99% of the plants do fine if they are damp at night, just a few have a weaker "immune system" and those are the ones I pay special attention to.

Jon
________
Roy Abernethy


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## Heather (Oct 19, 2006)

I was telling John a few mins ago that I have this one plant. I ordered it in December, and it arrived bare root, with rot from the lack of air. 
It was a nice division, and was replaced. The new one arrived and had another growth with a touch of rot upon arrival, but it pulled through, and was a big plant with about 5 good mature growths. I lost the one growth w/ the rot, and vowed never again to buy at that time of year. But then all was fine for months. The plant threw a couple sheaths, and both aborted. But all was still okay...new growths weren't growing too much but...

Last week, I caught two of the mature growths with basal rot. Right into the crown. I had to remove both growths. I hadn't watered in over a week! So now I have one unbloomed and the last aborted spike growth left, and some starts. 

This plant, it just seems prone to rot - no help from me at all!
It's not a long-petaled hybrid either, it is Beauport. 
It was such a beautiful plant upon arrival, but it seems to hate me. I did manage to make sure it escaped the thrip outbreak but still. 

Personally, my biggest challenge has been moving frequently and the unpredictable nature of it. Moving from full sun to part sun to no sun to lights, in less than a year...Aiii!!!


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## gonewild (Oct 19, 2006)

PHRAG said:


> Additives in the water maybe?



Additives in the water certainly can cause problems but I don't think they would cause bacteria to blossom. I would expect your water supply to kill bacteria if anything.

Lets make up a scenario where the leaves are never wet and the crown is never flushed with water. Under this condition perhaps dirt, dust, insects, detritus, pollution and other foul things accumulate in the crown or leaf axils. If this dry material suddenly gets wet, then perhaps a bacterial explosion might occur?

This would support the regular showers theory and that it really is not the water causing the rot. Am I stretching it here?

I think there are biological functions of the leaf that greatly benefit from being wet. But it has been a long time since botany class and as I remember I slept in class allot.


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## gonewild (Oct 19, 2006)

Jon in SW Ohio said:


> Only a hypothesis, but the constant moving of air and the breeding of plants is what I blame.
> 
> Plants in the wild seem to be tougher and more resilient than captive plants, and we don't have as much survival of the fittest going on in captivity. I run a lot of air movement and very high humidity and 99% of the plants do fine if they are damp at night, just a few have a weaker "immune system" and those are the ones I pay special attention to.
> 
> Jon



Those with the weaker immune system are the ones that should die to assure they never reproduce! OUCH! But if this is the case, and it may well be, then breeders might not be doing a responsible job of selection.


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## Heather (Oct 19, 2006)

But Lance - what if none of that exists? 
 

I wonder sometimes about growing in S/H - if it starts below the medium and progresses upwards through the crown. That seems like what happened with my recent experience. Nothing above was going on that was different and the plant has been in s/H now for 6 mos. 

Why, all of the sudden, would this arise as a problem? Culture on this plant actually hasn't changed much through the moves. The Phrags have always been on the same cart, w/ the same lights and relatively regular airflow. And yet, my phrags are the problem plants these days. Go figure. If it arrived in spike, it has now stalled. If it spiked in my posession, it has also stalled, and this one rotted. I'm ready to throw in the towel, frankly! 

These are ALL besseae and their hybrids. 
Any thoughts?


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## gonewild (Oct 19, 2006)

Heather said:


> But Lance - what if none of that exists?
> 
> 
> I wonder sometimes about growing in S/H - if it starts below the medium and progresses upwards through the crown. That seems like what happened with my recent experience. Nothing above was going on that was different and the plant has been in s/H now for 6 mos.
> ...



My first thought is don't throw in the towel. When you figure out how to beat the problem you will be so happy. And if you try you will win.

Let's play doctor.... start with the examination.

When you moved your plants how did their environment change? I don't mean from one location to another on the cart. I mean during transit.
How long were they in a sudden environment change?


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## Heather (Oct 20, 2006)

gonewild said:


> My first thought is don't throw in the towel. When you figure out how to beat the problem you will be so happy. And if you try you will win.
> 
> Let's play doctor.... start with the examination.
> 
> ...



OK! 

Transit was about 2 hours, with probably a day before could get to arranging them adequately. I moved once in April. Once in August, and again in September. All three to very different growing areas. Once arranged it probably took me about a week each time (except the August move) to get the lights up around them. The first move had good sunlight in the interim, the second had no sunlight in the interim, but it took me about a day to get the lights up. The third (and final, home!) had some sunlight at the time (less now) and took me about a week to get lights up, but about a month to get all lights up and running on a regular basis due to a ceiling leak. Which, I am quite certain but will know after today for sure, is fixed.


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## Wendy (Oct 20, 2006)

For what its worth, I water all my plants from overhead. I also water in the afternoon because i have to work most mornings and after three pm is the earliest I can get them done. After I water i turn the fan on high and leave it that way until morning. My lights go off at 8:30pm but the fans stay on 24/7...nature doesn't turn off the breeze when the sun goes down right? A tip I sometimes use is to put Physan in the water when i give the plants a shower. With the exception of one plant i haven't had any rot problems so far and I've been watering this way for quite some time. The one i had rot problems with was Paph Poulsbo and that was because I wasn't watering/flushing enough back then and it stressed the plant out big time. The accumulated salts and dryness pushed it over the edge. It's now on it's way back to health thanks to John M....he helps me out big time.


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## gonewild (Oct 20, 2006)

Heather said:


> OK!
> 
> Transit was about 2 hours, with probably a day before could get to arranging them adequately. I moved once in April. Once in August, and again in September. All three to very different growing areas. Once arranged it probably took me about a week each time (except the August move) to get the lights up around them. The first move had good sunlight in the interim, the second had no sunlight in the interim, but it took me about a day to get the lights up. The third (and final, home!) had some sunlight at the time (less now) and took me about a week to get lights up, but about a month to get all lights up and running on a regular basis due to a ceiling leak. Which, I am quite certain but will know after today for sure, is fixed.



More questions and diagnostics.....

So you have two basic issues. 
1. one rotted plant 
2. stalled spikes.

I assume your plants were growing great before your recent moves.
Problems with plant health can be cumulative. That is many small problems spread over a period of time can add up to one big failure.

For the one plant that rotted is there a chance it was somehow damaged during transit? Is it top heavy so as to possibly cause the plant tissue to have been bent below the soil level? Could this pot have been exposed to excessive heat during transit? What could have been different for this plant?

For the stalled spikes... Are the plants showing any other sign of distress? Are the spikes only stalled or are the deteriorating?

Your recent moves especially the last with a month of interrupted light levels could easily alter a plants growth cycle. During growth a plant is accurately orientated naturally to enable the organism to efficiently utilize it's resources. The simple act of rotating a plant has an effect. Energy must be used to re-orientate the system to fit the new environment. Normally we will never see any negative result from moving a plant but your plants have certainly lived on a turntable the last months. This could be a factor.

When you say your spikes have stalled is that equal for old plants and plants newly purchased? Have you purchased plants in spike since your last move and found the spikes to be stalled?

I doubt that during your actual transit of the plants they were subjected to any factor that would cause your current problem. Unless the two hours of transit was at an extreme temperature?

The month of less than stable lighting is what is leading the list of possible causes so far. Did you also change your watering and fertility methods/amounts during the altered light periods?


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## gonewild (Oct 20, 2006)

Wendy said:


> For what its worth, I water all my plants from overhead. I also water in the afternoon because i have to work most mornings and after three pm is the earliest I can get them done. After I water i turn the fan on high and leave it that way until morning. My lights go off at 8:30pm but the fans stay on 24/7...nature doesn't turn off the breeze when the sun goes down right? A tip I sometimes use is to put Physan in the water when i give the plants a shower. With the exception of one plant i haven't had any rot problems so far and I've been watering this way for quite some time. The one i had rot problems with was Paph Poulsbo and that was because I wasn't watering/flushing enough back then and it stressed the plant out big time. The accumulated salts and dryness pushed it over the edge. It's now on it's way back to health thanks to John M....he helps me out big time.



You are right Nature does not turn off the air movement when the sun goes down. Actually in the tropical mountains the wind and air currents increase in the late afternoons. Even water that condenses on leaves and drips off create air movements at night. 
Perhaps rot problems are a result of poor oxygen levels in the "wet crowns" as a result of stagnant conditions?


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## Heather (Oct 20, 2006)

gonewild said:


> For the one plant that rotted is there a chance it was somehow damaged during transit? Is it top heavy so as to possibly cause the plant tissue to have been bent below the soil level? Could this pot have been exposed to excessive heat during transit? What could have been different for this plant?



I'm not sure I can put my finger on anything. No excessive temps, not top heavy. The only clue that sticks in my mind is how it had suffered from some rot upon arrival last winter (as had the previous division sent). Could it just be more prone to rot? 



gonewild said:


> For the stalled spikes... Are the plants showing any other sign of distress? Are the spikes only stalled or are the deteriorating?
> When you say your spikes have stalled is that equal for old plants and plants newly purchased? Have you purchased plants in spike since your last move and found the spikes to be stalled?



I had problems with thrips over the summer with my Phrags. They've all been sprayed once with Conserve and once with Bayer. All of the Phrags have been switched over to S/H over the last 6 months - some just prior to the August move. Since the August move, 2 of those plants aborted sheaths. So, I could defintely chock that up to shock of different cultural conditions. One additional plant has a stalled spike, no sign of deterioration though. A fourth plant arrived in spike, I repotted into S/H, and it stalled, then grew, and now is stalled again. This plant was purchased in between the August and September moves. The fifth plant that is stalled just arrived a couple weeks ago, in spike, and I have not repotted and it seems to have stalled. 



gonewild said:


> Your recent moves especially the last with a month of interrupted light levels could easily alter a plants growth cycle. During growth a plant is accurately orientated naturally to enable the organism to efficiently utilize it's resources. The simple act of rotating a plant has an effect. Energy must be used to re-orientate the system to fit the new environment. Normally we will never see any negative result from moving a plant but your plants have certainly lived on a turntable the last months. This could be a factor.



Agreed. Interestingly, my Paphs are all doing fine, but they seem to take much longer than Phrags generally to go from sheath to bloom. I have one in bud right now that was spiking when the MH light went up. It has completely turned around to face the light in the last two weeks. 



gonewild said:


> The month of less than stable lighting is what is leading the list of possible causes so far. Did you also change your watering and fertility methods/amounts during the altered light periods?



I would say that and the switches to S/H. I also did not fertilize during the month between the Aug. and Sept. moves, though watering was about the same, once a week.

Thanks Lance! This is a good excercise!


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## gonewild (Oct 20, 2006)

Heather said:


> I'm not sure I can put my finger on anything. No excessive temps, not top heavy. The only clue that sticks in my mind is how it had suffered from some rot upon arrival last winter (as had the previous division sent). Could it just be more prone to rot?



Absolutely it could be prone to rot, genetically. Are the current and previous plant actual clonal divisions of the same plant?



> I had problems with thrips over the summer with my Phrags. They've all been sprayed once with Conserve and once with Bayer. All of the Phrags have been switched over to S/H over the last 6 months - some just prior to the August move. Since the August move, 2 of those plants aborted sheaths. So, I could defintely chock that up to shock of different cultural conditions. One additional plant has a stalled spike, no sign of deterioration though. A fourth plant arrived in spike, I repotted into S/H, and it stalled, then grew, and now is stalled again. This plant was purchased in between the August and September moves. The fifth plant that is stalled just arrived a couple weeks ago, in spike, and I have not repotted and it seems to have stalled.



Another factor which we have not discussed are atmospheric conditions. Have you moved into an area which has more air contaminants? I really feel air pollution can cause a lot of plant stress. This is another reason to overhead water foliage. watering the leaves washes away chemicals that have settled on the leaf surfaces.

Well back to the stalled spike problem. Let's look at your air. Is there any chance your new house has high levels of some "gas"? Specifically let's look at ethylene. Do you keep a lot of ripening fruit in the house? Apples? 

Not to cause alarm but remember the canary in the coal mine. Your plants may be an indicator.



> Agreed. Interestingly, my Paphs are all doing fine, but they seem to take much longer than Phrags generally to go from sheath to bloom. I have one in bud right now that was spiking when the MH light went up. It has completely turned around to face the light in the last two weeks.



Well , paphs are different from phrags. They grow slower so they react slower. Your observation here is tending to support our "interrupted environment" theory.



> I would say that and the switches to S/H. I also did not fertilize during the month between the Aug. and Sept. moves, though watering was about the same, once a week.



Less fertilizer for a month would not make an immediate drastic difference. Less water would, especially if they had dried out. But if this is not the case lets ignore this part of the exam.



> Thanks Lance! This is a good excercise!



You're welcome! Causing me to think  

I think we are needing to look at your air quality.


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## Heather (Oct 20, 2006)

gonewild said:


> Absolutely it could be prone to rot, genetically. Are the current and previous plant actual clonal divisions of the same plant?



Yes.  
I received one plant in December, and it arrived with basal/crown rot. I watched it and tried to abort for a few weeks but no dice, so a replacement was sent. It too had a spot but I was able to arrest the problem, until a few weeks ago when all the sudden, two growths were affected, in the crown. 




gonewild said:


> Another factor which we have not discussed are atmospheric conditions. Have you moved into an area which has more air contaminants? I really feel air pollution can cause a lot of plant stress. This is another reason to overhead water foliage. watering the leaves washes away chemicals that have settled on the leaf surfaces.
> 
> Well back to the stalled spike problem. Let's look at your air. Is there any chance your new house has high levels of some "gas"? Specifically let's look at ethylene. Do you keep a lot of ripening fruit in the house? Apples?
> 
> Not to cause alarm but remember the canary in the coal mine. Your plants may be an indicator.



Well, I moved from the country, to the city, and back out to a rural community. The only issue I know of with regards to my air quality is I live *very* close to a diner next door which pretty much vents into my apt. So, when the windows are open, there is often the scent of bacon wafting through the air... Other than that, I have natural gas heat, but it just got turned on this morning and I have yet to use it. 

I had several peaches on the table a couple weeks in a row but nothing that I think would cause such amounts of gas that would cause spikes to blast, but maybe? I hadn't thought about that! 



gonewild said:


> You're welcome! Causing me to think



This is the type of topic and investigation that I hope newer growers (like myself!) can learn from our forum.


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## gonewild (Oct 20, 2006)

Heather said:


> Yes.
> I received one plant in December, and it arrived with basal/crown rot. I watched it and tried to abort for a few weeks but no dice, so a replacement was sent. It too had a spot but I was able to arrest the problem, until a few weeks ago when all the sudden, two growths were affected, in the crown.



Well it sure sounds like this clone has a built in rot problem. It may be that the plant is actually hosting a dormant infection. I suppose the bacteria could be systemic in the plant or existing on outer surfaces. For some reason the clone is susceptible to rot. Your other plants are not rotting. This problem could also be a genetic flaw in the clone. Well a flaw as far as being a good horticultural clone. Having a beautiful blossom is of little value inf the plant dies easily. Unless breeders are subjecting their hybrid lines to adverse conditions and disease to allow the weaker plants to culled the strains will eventually become disease prone. This is why in nature so few seeds germinate and survive to reproduce. From a genetic survival stand point most seedlings should never survive to reproduce. That award winner that has been caudaled all of it's life will pass along genetic qualities of great blossoms but also it may pass along it's lack of resistance to disease and environmental problems. Good breeding lines consist not only of beauty but also endurance. This is not to say that the plant you have is a result of bad breeding practices but it appears to be one that should not be used as a parent.

Here is a good opportunity for some of the breeders to enter this thread and correct me if I'm in error.



> Well, I moved from the country, to the city, and back out to a rural community.



So you went from clean air to air with more additives and the back to clean. 
At this point you gave your plants some type of short gas treatment. Good or bad.



> The only issue I know of with regards to my air quality is I live *very* close to a diner next door which pretty much vents into my apt. So, when the windows are open, there is often the scent of bacon wafting through the air...



Your spikes are being gased. If you getting the exaust of the bacon fumes you are likely getting all of the stove exaust as well. I'd get your inside air tested. Maybe there is no problem but a test is the only way to know for sure. Needless to say you should verify this for your own health sake. They vent those fumes out of their kitchen for a reason.



> Other than that, I have natural gas heat, but it just got turned on this morning and I have yet to use it.



I've lived with NG heat most of my life. It is very clean, unless you have a faulty burner or exhaust. Besides you have not used it yet so it is not a cause of your problem.



> I had several peaches on the table a couple weeks in a row but nothing that I think would cause such amounts of gas that would cause spikes to blast, but maybe? I hadn't thought about that!



Even short exposures to small amounts of ethylene gas will shorten the life of flowers. It may very well cause your flower spikes to stall or terminate. You should get an ethylene test. Ethylene can come from Natural gas exhaust, aka the dinner next door.

*OK, Wake up and smell the bacon. *



> This is the type of topic and investigation that I hope newer growers (like myself!) can learn from our forum.



*A grower is someone who "grows" plants not just keeps them.*
If you are experiencing a problem with plant growth change something until you learn what makes the plant grow. If it dies get another and try again.
Onward and upward we go, as long as we step forward. But always look back.


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## NYEric (Oct 20, 2006)

Most plants, especially Phrag besseae are exposed to moisture in the form of rain and humidity so water would get in the crowns anyway. However, I found that water in the crowns of my besseae hybrids [65 and adding] almost always led to some kind of rotting problem so at the most I only get water in the crown from light misting. I almost never pour water into the leaves and when I do I immediately blow it out. [puff] I think it's worth it to do this to protect the investment I've made in these plants. :wink:


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## gonewild (Oct 20, 2006)

NYEric said:


> Most plants, especially Phrag besseae are exposed to moisture in the form of rain and humidity so water would get in the crowns anyway. However, I found that water in the crowns of my besseae hybrids [65 and adding] almost always led to some kind of rotting problem so at the most I only get water in the crown from light misting. I almost never pour water into the leaves and when I do I immediately blow it out. [puff] I think it's worth it to do this to protect the investment I've made in these plants. :wink:



Absolutely it is worth it to protect your investment. I'm not suggesting that water in the crowns does not lead to problems. I would never let water stand purposely in the crown of a plant overnight. I think everyone should each night say goodnight to their plants and soak up any excess water with a swab. Quality time.

I would also suggest it may be worth it to try to learn why under your conditions water on the crowns causes a problem. Could be a fun journey, just don't try on your favorite plants.:wink: 

What I am saying is that the water should not the problem. It should be possible but perhaps not practically to adjust your growing conditions (environment) to better grow the plants so that water no longer causes a problem. I'm not suggesting one needs to find an exact copy of the natural environment of a plant. Quite the opposite when it comes to growing beautiful plants we can improve on Nature. All we need do is eliminate the negative factors and optimize the positive ones.

As you say besseae are wet in nature. So there exists some growing conditions that will allow them to be wet in your collection without rotting. Once you find this balance your plants growth will be optimized. Plants that rot because water gets on the leaves are not growing in an optimum environment. So my point is, make environmental changes until everything is perfect. 

It is all about trial and error. It may not be possible for someone to change their environment, in this case it is best to do what keeps the plants alive and well. But as time goes on concepts become accepted as fact that may in fact not be. It seems to be a universal accepted fact that besseae and it's hybrids rot easily if water gets into the crowns. But I just don't think water is what causes the problem.

When a new grower reads advice to never get water in the crown, that advice is likely taken to heart and the plant may never get a leaf bath.
Plants in the exposed environment need water (lots of it) on their foliage to grow at their optimum. It is very important.

Here is something to tnink about. Phrags have a leaf structure that naturally diverts water inward towards the crown of the plant. If water were a natural problem in the crown of the phrag the leaf structure would divert water outward and away.


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## SlipperFan (Oct 20, 2006)

gonewild said:


> When a new grower reads advice to never get water in the crown, that advice is likely taken to heart and the plant may never get a leaf bath.
> Plants in the exposed environment need water (lots of it) on their foliage to grow at their optimum. It is very important.


I've seen that with our customers. They bring their plants in for repotting, and now and then one (or a bunch) comes in with a thick coat of dust.


gonewild said:


> Here is something to tnink about. Phrags have a leaf structure that naturally diverts water inward towards the crown of the plant. If water were a natural problem in the crown of the phrag the leaf structure would divert water outward and away.


That's a very interesting observation. A lot should be said for air movement.


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## Heather (Oct 20, 2006)

gonewild said:


> Your spikes are being gased. If you getting the exaust of the bacon fumes you are likely getting all of the stove exaust as well. I'd get your inside air tested. Maybe there is no problem but a test is the only way to know for sure. Needless to say you should verify this for your own health sake. They vent those fumes out of their kitchen for a reason.
> 
> I've lived with NG heat most of my life. It is very clean, unless you have a faulty burner or exhaust. Besides you have not used it yet so it is not a cause of your problem.
> 
> ...


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## gonewild (Oct 20, 2006)

Heather said:


> Hrmmm......okay, I will look into testing...not sure where to start but Google is my friend.



If you live near a large wholesale florist they may have a test meter. Maybe if you told them your problem with your plants they might loan you something for a minute.

Take a look at this link:
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/guilford/newsletters/comhort00.html


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## Rick (Oct 21, 2006)

Lance and Jon made some key points. One of which I made way back on the old forum. How do orchids survive in the jungle when it frequently rains at night, or in the case of monsoon systems where it can rain nonstop for days/nights on end.

I think airflow is the key, and an otherwise healthy plant will have resistance to disease.

I use a misting system for humidification and temperature control. It doesn't spray directly on the plants, but there is alot of overspray that can get on some of the plants (including my bessea). Since the system is hooked up to a humidistat and thermostat, the system comes on on demand, which often happens at night in the winter.

I used to worry allot more about wet crowns at night, but with each year I run this system my anxiety on this issue goes down.


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## gonewild (Oct 21, 2006)

Rick said:


> Lance and Jon made some key points. One of which I made way back on the old forum. How do orchids survive in the jungle when it frequently rains at night, or in the case of monsoon systems where it can rain nonstop for days/nights on end.
> 
> I think airflow is the key, and an otherwise healthy plant will have resistance to disease.
> 
> ...



I think it is kind of like the old saying Mothers like to use on their kids...

*" get out of the rain, you're going to catch your death of pneumonia!"*

I like to walk in the rain.


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## myxodex (Oct 22, 2006)

A really fascinating discussion. I have to wonder whether there might be some additional factors that allow these plants to survive wet in the wild? What comes to mind is microbial ecology ... apart from the presence of protozoa and other bacteria-eating protists, most organically rich soils conceal a battle ground of microbial chemical warfare ... antibiotics are what we know about this. In addition there may be anti-microbial organics released from neighbouring plants ... some trees have bark that contain anti-microbial
chemicals. It is also possible that some chemicals mineral and/or organic might be absorbed by plants and help protect them from pathogens while not being essential for growth per se. I also wonder whether water from electrical storms has an advantageous chemistry. These factors might not be easily replicated in culture and might just give plants in the wild ... together with natural ventilation ... the edge. Just wild speculation I know but ecological relationships between organisms often throws up fascinating discoveries.
Cheers,
Tim


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## ScottMcC (Oct 22, 2006)

This has been a very interesting discussion so far, and I've certainly learned a lot. One thing I will say though is that plants in the wild rot and die all the time. In the home, we expect close to 100% disease-free survival of our plants, and want them to all be growing briskly and flowering regularly. In nature, this isn't the case at all. A great percentage of plants never make it to maturity because of diseases, predators, and the like. The percentage varies greatly between species, but I seem to remember that with many cactuses it takes billions of seeds to yield one mature cactus. Perhaps this is a concept we should think about more, and we need to realize that growing in the home is simply NOT the same as growing in the wild on a number of levels.

But on a different note, I accidentally got my Masdevallia in the line of fire of a misting bottle (was misting another plant next to it and oversprayed), and the next day, there were black spots on the leaves exactly in the pattern that was hit. They since progressed to little depressions in the leaves, or in the case of one, a small perfectly round hole. I can't help but think this is a result of the water, perhaps through a small bacterial infection. The plant is doing fine now, and hasn't had any further outbreaks since then (although I've been much more careful not to get the leaves wet at all).

Anyway, are our expectations of our plants realistic? In commercial agricultural operations a certain percentage of losses is expected...perhaps this is just a manifestation of that?


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## gonewild (Oct 22, 2006)

myxodex said:


> A really fascinating discussion. I have to wonder whether there might be some additional factors that allow these plants to survive wet in the wild? What comes to mind is microbial ecology ... apart from the presence of protozoa and other bacteria-eating protists, most organically rich soils conceal a battle ground of microbial chemical warfare ... antibiotics are what we know about this. In addition there may be anti-microbial organics released from neighbouring plants ... some trees have bark that contain anti-microbial
> chemicals. It is also possible that some chemicals mineral and/or organic might be absorbed by plants and help protect them from pathogens while not being essential for growth per se. I also wonder whether water from electrical storms has an advantageous chemistry. These factors might not be easily replicated in culture and might just give plants in the wild ... together with natural ventilation ... the edge. Just wild speculation I know but ecological relationships between organisms often throws up fascinating discoveries.
> Cheers,
> Tim



You are absolutely correct. All the factors you mention play a role. When it comes to microbes I imagine plants rot easily in cultivation because a "beneficial" microbe is not present to combat the bacteria that causes rot. "Bad" microbes simply build up and at some point explode into a problem.

We can't hope to replicate nature in our small growing environments, but we can utilize the parts of nature we have access to. Water is a cleansing agent. Perhaps plants benefit from the water baths by having increasing populations of bad microbes washed away? Maybe water has gotten a bad rap as the cause of rot problems?


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## gonewild (Oct 22, 2006)

ScottMcC said:


> This has been a very interesting discussion so far, and I've certainly learned a lot. One thing I will say though is that plants in the wild rot and die all the time. In the home, we expect close to 100% disease-free survival of our plants, and want them to all be growing briskly and flowering regularly. In nature, this isn't the case at all. A great percentage of plants never make it to maturity because of diseases, predators, and the like. The percentage varies greatly between species, but I seem to remember that with many cactuses it takes billions of seeds to yield one mature cactus. Perhaps this is a concept we should think about more, and we need to realize that growing in the home is simply NOT the same as growing in the wild on a number of levels.



The subject here goes way beyond water in the crown but it certainly pertains to it.

In nature it is all about survival of the fittest. The genetically resistant individual plants survive to reproduce and perpetuate the specie. Plants that are genetically prone to rot, when rained on, die. They most likely die soon after germination.

In horticulture it is necessary to respect this genetic necessity. Orchid seeds are grown in a sterile environment that does not allow the genetically weak to die. The seedlings are taken from a sterile environment and cared for with love and not allowed to get sick add die. Watch this scenario...

The little first bloomer has a fantastic blossom and gets an award. On to a special space on the greenhouse bench to get special care. Next season the plant blooms and is used to create the next generation of hybrids. IF a little rot happens because some water got on the leaves it is promptly treated with chemicals and it's life is saved. It is a prize plant. When the rot reappears it is treated again and the plant will grow and breed for many generations. 

Now here is the point of the above scenerio. That plant in nature would have died. It would not have reproduced. The seedlings it produced will carry on it's genetic weaknesses. A higher percentage of the next generation will likely be even more sensitive to microbial and environmental problems. Once a plant is infected with "bad" bacteria it most likely always has the bacteria within it's system. If a division of the infected plant is created the division will also be infected and move to whatever new location the division goes to.

We expect 100% disease free survival of our plants. 
Boy are we arrogant or what?  

but should we be responsible and let the weak plants die?
If I have a few seedlings out of my collection that just die because I got them wet, then so be it! I don't want orchids to evolve into plants so frail they can't take a walk in the rain. Remember it is not the water that causes the death, unless it is uses incorrectly. Too much or not enough is what this thread started as. (I think)



> But on a different note, I accidentally got my Masdevallia in the line of fire of a misting bottle (was misting another plant next to it and oversprayed), and the next day, there were black spots on the leaves exactly in the pattern that was hit. They since progressed to little depressions in the leaves, or in the case of one, a small perfectly round hole. I can't help but think this is a result of the water, perhaps through a small bacterial infection. The plant is doing fine now, and hasn't had any further outbreaks since then (although I've been much more careful not to get the leaves wet at all).



Are you sure you misted with water and not window cleaner?  
Is there a chance the leaf temperature was at a much higher degree from the water you misted with? Some plants will not tolerate a sudden drastic change in leaf temperature without tissue death.



> Anyway, are our expectations of our plants realistic? In commercial agricultural operations a certain percentage of losses is expected...perhaps this is just a manifestation of that?



Yes, our expectations are realistic. We should expect our plants to survive. We should work hard to make sure they do. But to make this happen we must use tough love and good breeder selection. 

I like to use stories......
I have a good friend who was one of the first to work with breeding Gerbera daisies (1960s). He started with species form wild collections. Wild Gerberas rot in cultivation if you even look at them sideways. After many years of breeding he managed to get a strain of beautiful flowered hybrids established. It was at this point in his breeding program I gave him one of our greenhouses to use. After working everyday pollinating flowers and carefully collecting and counting seeds one by one for a year, he finally sowed 100,000seeds. The resulting seedlings were beautiful and flowered in 4 inch pots. It is at this point where this story becomes relevant to our orchid discussion. He set out all of these seedlings outdoors, in less than ideal, unsterilized conditions and watered with way to much water. When I questioned his intelligence (he is old enough to be my father) and told him his most beautiful plants would die from rot he gave me some sound knowledge. Yes, many, if not most of the plants would die. But those that survive will be the foundation of breeders to make it possible to grow a Gerbera daisy almost anywhere and under normal garden conditions. To him beauty was in the fact the plant was strong and could survive, after all he or future breeders could always breed the pretty flowers in the next generations. Any breeding program should have selection for vigor. What good is a beautifully flowered hybrid if dies when planted or causes worry to it's keeper? Let's call it the stress test.



> Anyway, are our expectations of our plants realistic?


No, not if we expect everyone of them to live forever.


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## Lance Birk (Oct 22, 2006)

Very, VERY rarely have I ever seen a plant in nature, dying from disease. Mechanical injury from insect predation and the like is more common.

Plants and their flowers in natural habitats can take week's worth of rain without damage--remember, monsoons?. This is because the constant moisture wipes them clean and never allows rots to get a foothold. Light mists and dew at night are another story. When the water stays, and does not drip off, it is a good enviornment for diseases to grow and cause their damage.

In this light, it is particularly advantageous to water your plants frequently, possibly 2, 3, or even 4 times per week, and more. With the proper air movement and potting media, this actually washes out the soil pathogens before they can build to a dangerous level, and it makes your potting media last longer. Also, since plant growth is in DIRECT proportion to the amount of water they receive, your plants will be healthier and more robust. Don't forget they would benefit from more light with this protocol.


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## NYEric (Oct 22, 2006)

Having spent way too much of my adult life crawling around in the jungle, forest and woods I have seen plenty of plants w/ diseases. I'm sure some of them have died. I think a large part of the problems w/ our plant ailments come from the environment we have created. I have great air movement but almost always have leaves covered in dust and small soot. Living in NYC I'm not suprized. We have to make the effort to give our plants the best environment. I dont want to really breed my plants I just want them to grow healthy and strong and to produce pretty blooms. If I was looking to breed plants I dont think I would try it in a NYC apartment. E.


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## gonewild (Oct 23, 2006)

NYEric said:


> I think a large part of the problems w/ our plant ailments come from the environment we have created. I have great air movement but almost always have leaves covered in dust and small soot. Living in NYC I'm not suprized. We have to make the effort to give our plants the best environment.



You are 100% correct and part of giving our plants the best environment is giving them wet foliage. The plant needs a sanitary environment.

The dust and soot covering the leaves is why I said it is good to frequently drench the foliage. Water is Nature's cleanser. The soot and dust carry contaminants and bacteria. If contaminants are on the leaf surface they are also accumulating down in the crown of plants. If this is not flushed out frequently it can become quite concentrated. When water inadvertently sits in the the crown of a plant that rarely gets wet, the accumulated debris will make a "tea". This tea may be loaded with bacteria and is a super growth environment for rot. It is the dense population of bacteria that overcomes the plants resistance and allows an infection to advance.

Now if you never get water in the crown you may never have a problem. But keeping the crowns dry is always a constant worry. If you frequently wet the foliage this debris never has a chance to accumulate. 

Just keeping the dust and soot washed off the leaf will increase the leaf's biological efficiency. Sanitation is a very important part of any artificial environment. Of course not all in house growing spaces allow for misting and drenching and a person has to adapt to whatever works best for them. But I still say water in or on the foliage does not cause the plant to rot.


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## Heather (Oct 23, 2006)

Y'all've (good word huh?) convinced me to start being more dilligent about misting my plants again. Thanks!


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## NYEric (Oct 23, 2006)

*Be honest*

You dont really consider water coming thru the leaky roof to be misting do you? oke:


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## slippertalker (Oct 23, 2006)

Lance Birk said:


> Very, VERY rarely have I ever seen a plant in nature, dying from disease. Mechanical injury from insect predation and the like is more common.
> 
> Plants and their flowers in natural habitats can take week's worth of rain without damage--remember, monsoons?. This is because the constant moisture wipes them clean and never allows rots to get a foothold. Light mists and dew at night are another story. When the water stays, and does not drip off, it is a good enviornment for diseases to grow and cause their damage.
> 
> In this light, it is particularly advantageous to water your plants frequently, possibly 2, 3, or even 4 times per week, and more. With the proper air movement and potting media, this actually washes out the soil pathogens before they can build to a dangerous level, and it makes your potting media last longer. Also, since plant growth is in DIRECT proportion to the amount of water they receive, your plants will be healthier and more robust. Don't forget they would benefit from more light with this protocol.



I knew there had to be some validation for my watering practices! I have always been heavy on the water and air, and low on chemicals. As long as the mix stays fresh, the plants seem to love it. A more open mix seems to help......
Also growing water loving plants and also mounting plants makes heavy watering more practical. 
I also agree with the statement about light, the plants can take, and need more light under these conditions.


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## gonewild (Nov 6, 2006)

John, how did your plants fair while you were away? Did your automatic system do it's job?


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## PHRAG (Nov 6, 2006)

They did just fine. The watering system worked perfectly, as far as I know. I came home to full reservoirs. I think I need to take a more agressive approach to watering with the besseae especially.


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## NYEric (Nov 6, 2006)

Thanx to Lance I'm now going to flush more water thru a sampling of my phrags. I may also get a can of that compressed air stuff to blow the water out.


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## gonewild (Nov 6, 2006)

NYEric said:


> Thanx to Lance I'm now going to flush more water thru a sampling of my phrags. I may also get a can of that compressed air stuff to blow the water out.



Brrrrrr Brrrrrr! Wind chill!
Be careful with the cans of compressed air. The air comes out very cold at the nozzle tip. Don't want freezer burn :sob:


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