# Paph. Wölssner Helene



## ORG (Oct 8, 2007)

Here a very nice hybrid
*Paphiopedilum Wössner Helene*, the cross between _Paph. charleswortii _with _Paph. helenae_








Best greetings

Olaf


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## cdub (Oct 8, 2007)

:drool::drool::drool:

I love it.


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## Candace (Oct 8, 2007)

Hmmm. I don't care for helenae so it would follow I'm not going to love any of it's hybrids. But it's educational :> Thanks for posting the photos.


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## practicallyostensible (Oct 8, 2007)

Candace said:


> Hmmm. I don't care for helenae so it would follow I'm not going to love any of it's hybrids. But it's educational :> Thanks for posting the photos.



You don't care for helenae, you don't care for charlesworthii, so picky. oke:


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## SlipperFan (Oct 8, 2007)

I agree, interesting. Especially the staminode.


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## Candace (Oct 8, 2007)

> You don't care for helenae, you don't care for charlesworthii, so picky.



Yes, but can you believe some people don't like ANY paphs??


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## practicallyostensible (Oct 9, 2007)

Candace said:


> Yes, but can you believe some people don't like ANY paphs??



Blasphemy!


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## Hien (Oct 9, 2007)

Strange, both the strong yellow (helenae) & purple (charlesworthii) disappear from the result.
Are you sure it is not a mixed up that the flask actually is a hybrid of tranlienianum or barbigerum with something.....?


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## tocarmar (Oct 9, 2007)

I want 1. Where can I get 1?

Tom


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## ORG (Oct 9, 2007)

It is sure that the parents are helenae and charlesworthii.

The plants are in trade in Germany, but only one nursery, the originator of this cross, has plants.

Best greetings

Olaf


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## Sangii (Oct 9, 2007)

very nice. Like CHien I would have thought this was charlesworthii x barbigerum


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## Roy (Oct 9, 2007)

Not overly impressed with this cross. Doesn't seem to achieved anything except a muddy color. Certainly detracts from either parent.


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## NYEric (Oct 9, 2007)

I disagree, i generally only really like Parvi crosses but the size and shape of this are interesting enough to get one. I would like to be able to get one of every plant, I guess I'm a collector/grower. But money and space requirements allow me only to get plants I prefer.


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## slippertalker (Oct 9, 2007)

These primary crosses are interesting since they show the relative dominance of the two species. Paph helenae seems quite dominant for shape and Paph charlesworthii always seems to present that lovely staminode. The color is perhaps different than you might expect but this might be a good first step to miniature (tiny) complex types.


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## Jorch (Oct 9, 2007)

Thanks for sharing, Olaf. Certainly an interesting result.. definitely not what I was expecting! I agree with Hien, it's a pity that crossing a yellow dorsal + pink pouch (helenae) with a purple dorsal and tan pouch (charlesworthii) produces a white dorsal with muddy color.. oke:


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## Gilda (Oct 9, 2007)

Looks like a brown spicerianum to me ...


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## goldenrose (Oct 9, 2007)

Jorch said:


> Thanks for sharing, Olaf. Certainly an interesting result.. definitely not what I was expecting! I agree with Hien, it's a pity that crossing a yellow dorsal + pink pouch (helenae) with a purple dorsal and tan pouch (charlesworthii) produces a white dorsal with muddy color.. oke:



We've only seen one plant, it would be interesting to see what others look like. We'll cross our fingers!?


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## Jorch (Oct 10, 2007)

goldenrose said:


> We've only seen one plant, it would be interesting to see what others look like. We'll cross our fingers!?



If this my plant, I'd definitely cross it with my hermanii to see if the offspring will be dark chocolate color throughout! :rollhappy: That should look quite yummy... hehe :drool:


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## Kavanaru (Jan 20, 2009)

That's indeed an interesting cross... However, it would be also interesting to see the same cross with the alba variety of charlesworthii...

on the other hand, and regarding the colors... I disagree with the comments that because the flowers are brown the cross is not good... taste in colors is a matter of fashion (yes, believe it or not we are all influenced by fashion!. A couple of years ago, it would have not been possible to think green flowers (and not only orchids) would be in vogue some day, and now they are.. on the other hand, I know a lot of people who likes brown tones.. me, for example, like a lot all the Paph with brown (earth) tones, like the plants shown here...


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## SlipperKing (Jan 20, 2009)

Hien said:


> Strange, both the strong yellow (helenae) & purple (charlesworthii) disappear from the result.
> Are you sure it is not a mixed up that the flask actually is a hybrid of tranlienianum or barbigerum with something.....?


I have to side with you Hien. Looks too off to be what it is claimed to be. Even if it is the correct parents, I would have to bloom more before I used this clone in further breeding. The color is fine for me but the shape needs a lot of work.


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## Mrs. Paph (Jan 20, 2009)

I love both species...but that is far enough from expected to be quite a disappointment, and make me suspicious as well. I don't say it's ugly by any means, just not what I would have imagined, so we'll just have to wait to see more in bloom!


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## Leo Schordje (Jan 20, 2009)

SlipperKing said:


> I have to side with you Hien. Looks too off to be what it is claimed to be. Even if it is the correct parents, I would have to bloom more before I used this clone in further breeding. The color is fine for me but the shape needs a lot of work.



Actually I'm surprised you guys don't remember the colors of other intra-sectional charlesworthii hybrids. oke: Generally the charlesworthii dorsal shape, size & color is largely recessive. Good example is (henryanum x charlesworthii) - not much pink in the dorsal, just the white background and a little flushing of pink. The flower superficially resembles an altered color form of henryanum. Paph (barbigerum x chalresworthii) is also more like an improved barbigerum than anything else. Also look at charlesworthii x complex paphs, generally the pink of the dorsal is reduced to either lines, spots or just a small flush of color, rather than a full blown pink dorsal. Even (spicerianum x charlesworthii) looks superficially more like spicerianum than the charlesworthii. With its closest cousins charleworthii is a shy one.

The magic comes in the next generation. That's when you can pick up the color again. I REALLY want to see Wossner Helene crossed to (henryanum x charlesworthii) I think that would be an exciting cross. With charlesworthii on both sides as a grandparent, This could give you white or pink dorsals on a percentage of offspring, helenae for smaller plant stature & yellows and greens, and henryanum for bold spots and pink colors in the petals & pouch - all manner of flower would be possible, some on fairly compact plants. I bet of few would be more like mini-complex reds. A selfing of Wossner Helene would be interesting too, again to recover the charleworthii dorsal in some percentage of the offspring. 

Note: when breeding outside it's section charleworthi isn't always recessive. It just seems to be recessive to its close relatives. Outside its section it behaves differently.

Cheers - Leo


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## NYEric (Jan 20, 2009)

I just wish I could get some of these crosses. It's so stupifyingly annoying that these crosses are legally made but so hard to get here.


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## nikv (Jan 20, 2009)

What a charming flower!


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## Drorchid (Jan 20, 2009)

Leo Schordje said:


> Actually I'm surprised you guys don't remember the colors of other intra-sectional charlesworthii hybrids. oke: Generally the charlesworthii dorsal shape, size & color is largely recessive. Good example is (henryanum x charlesworthii) - not much pink in the dorsal, just the white background and a little flushing of pink. The flower superficially resembles an altered color form of henryanum. Paph (barbigerum x chalresworthii) is also more like an improved barbigerum than anything else. Also look at charlesworthii x complex paphs, generally the pink of the dorsal is reduced to either lines, spots or just a small flush of color, rather than a full blown pink dorsal. Even (spicerianum x charlesworthii) looks superficially more like spicerianum than the charlesworthii. With its closest cousins charleworthii is a shy one.
> 
> The magic comes in the next generation. That's when you can pick up the color again. I REALLY want to see Wossner Helene crossed to (henryanum x charlesworthii) I think that would be an exciting cross. With charlesworthii on both sides as a grandparent, This could give you white or pink dorsals on a percentage of offspring, helenae for smaller plant stature & yellows and greens, and henryanum for bold spots and pink colors in the petals & pouch - all manner of flower would be possible, some on fairly compact plants. I bet of few would be more like mini-complex reds. A selfing of Wossner Helene would be interesting too, again to recover the charleworthii dorsal in some percentage of the offspring.
> 
> ...



All very true! With this kind of breeding you do not always get the results you want in the first generation, and you have to do a two or three step breeding method. I agree I don't like how this primary looks, it brings out the worst characteristics of both parents, and brings out muddy tones, but I do think it would be useful for using as a parent for tea cup paphs. Eventually in the next few generations you can select for plants with flatter dorsals and plants that have nicer colors.

Robert


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## emydura (Jan 20, 2009)

Leo Schordje said:


> Actually I'm surprised you guys don't remember the colors of other intra-sectional charlesworthii hybrids. oke: Generally the charlesworthii dorsal shape, size & color is largely recessive. Good example is (henryanum x charlesworthii) - not much pink in the dorsal, just the white background and a little flushing of pink. The flower superficially resembles an altered color form of henryanum. Paph (barbigerum x chalresworthii) is also more like an improved barbigerum than anything else. Also look at charlesworthii x complex paphs, generally the pink of the dorsal is reduced to either lines, spots or just a small flush of color, rather than a full blown pink dorsal. Even (spicerianum x charlesworthii) looks superficially more like spicerianum than the charlesworthii. With its closest cousins charleworthii is a shy one.
> 
> The magic comes in the next generation. That's when you can pick up the color again. I REALLY want to see Wossner Helene crossed to (henryanum x charlesworthii) I think that would be an exciting cross. With charlesworthii on both sides as a grandparent, This could give you white or pink dorsals on a percentage of offspring, helenae for smaller plant stature & yellows and greens, and henryanum for bold spots and pink colors in the petals & pouch - all manner of flower would be possible, some on fairly compact plants. I bet of few would be more like mini-complex reds. A selfing of Wossner Helene would be interesting too, again to recover the charleworthii dorsal in some percentage of the offspring.
> 
> ...



Thanks Leo. Informitive as always. Up till now I have just been collecting Paphs. It is only recently I have been thinking about breeding. I've decided on concentrating on the species you mentioned as they are colourful and compact (important given my limited space) and easy to grow. I have a couple of flasks each of helenae and henryanum I am growing up as well as a beautiful compact form of charlesworthii with a perfectly shaped flower. So hopefully soon I can start attempting crosses you suggested. I was a bit alarmed by the result of this cross but you have given me the inspiration to take it further.

I have a helenae x henryanum in bud at the moment. I don't think I have seen any photos of that cross. Interesting to see how it turns out.

David


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## Leo Schordje (Jan 20, 2009)

emydura said:


> Thanks Leo. Informitive as always. Up till now I have just been collecting Paphs. It is only recently I have been thinking about breeding. I've decided on concentrating on the species you mentioned as they are colourful and compact (important given my limited space) and easy to grow. I have a couple of flasks each of helenae and henryanum I am growing up as well as a beautiful compact form of charlesworthii with a perfectly shaped flower. So hopefully soon I can start attempting crosses you suggested. I was a bit alarmed by the result of this cross but you have given me the inspiration to take it further.
> 
> I have a helenae x henryanum in bud at the moment. I don't think I have seen any photos of that cross. Interesting to see how it turns out.
> 
> David



I would love to see photos of (helenae x henryanum), please post them when they bloom.


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## Kavanaru (Jan 20, 2009)

there is a picture of Paphiopedilum Ministar (helenae x henryanum) posted by Olaf in another forum: http://www.slipperorchidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=63436 from all helenae primary hybrids that I have seen, this is the one which will most probably please the large mayority of people... I Like it at all, however, my favorites continue being Wössner Zwerg and Wössner Goldsuk...

(hope it is ok to post the link here)


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## emydura (Jan 20, 2009)

Kavanaru said:


> there is a picture of Paphiopedilum Ministar (helenae x henryanum) posted by Olaf in another forum: http://www.slipperorchidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=63436 from all helenae primary hybrids that I have seen, this is the one which will most probably please the large mayority of people... I Like it at all, however, my favorites continue being Wössner Zwerg and Wössner Goldsuk...
> 
> (hope it is ok to post the link here)



Thanks. I remember seeing that one now. Quite nice. I hope mine turns out as well. It certainly is very easy to grow.

David


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## Leo Schordje (Jan 21, 2009)

Kavanaru said:


> there is a picture of Paphiopedilum Ministar (helenae x henryanum) posted by Olaf in another forum: http://www.slipperorchidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=63436 from all helenae primary hybrids that I have seen, this is the one which will most probably please the large mayority of people... I Like it at all, however, my favorites continue being Wössner Zwerg and Wössner Goldsuk...
> 
> (hope it is ok to post the link here)



I was banned from that forum, as are many others here. I am not allowed to use my name or any part of my name on Peter's forum. Which I feel is ridiculous. I have decided to not waste my time where I am not welcome.


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## SlipperKing (Jan 21, 2009)

I'm not banned yet Leo so here is Olaf's posting of hen X hel


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## Kavanaru (Jan 21, 2009)

Leo Schordje said:


> I was banned from that forum, as are many others here. I am not allowed to use my name or any part of my name on Peter's forum. Which I feel is ridiculous. I have decided to not waste my time where I am not welcome.



WOW... but why? 

I recently registered in that forum because I wanted to see those pictures... cannot yet say anything good or bad about it...


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## nikv (Jan 21, 2009)

Wow! Very cute. I love the dorsal on this one. Green with a white border and lots of spots! :drool:


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## Leo Schordje (Jan 21, 2009)

I really like paph henryanum straight up, or in just about every primary cross it has been put into. Looks like (helenae x henryanum) has got everything I like about henryanum plus the smaller size. 

- Kavanaru - Don't bring the issue up over on that site, SOF, you'll get banned yourself. Peter has a strict no selling through contacts made on his site (unless his site gets an annual payment). In his mind - because I have a website that includes my name - if I post an image, and there is any clue as to my ownership of the plant, even just my first name, that constitutes selling through his site, and he wanted $150 a year at the time. He also bans people quickly if there is any criticism or even sarcastic remarks in general. I found it all too frustrating to deal with. He may not be a bad guy in person, I just find it hard to deal with the way he runs his site. This subject has been beaten to death on this site a number of times. It is basically old news & a long story. Others have similar stories. Best to just let the subject die.


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## ORG (Jan 21, 2009)

Here is my own picture, not taken from the other side






and a second clone






Best greetings

Olaf


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## Leo Schordje (Jan 21, 2009)

Olaf, 
Very beautiful. Wunderbar! This is definitely a good cross for tea cup size paphs. Thank you
Leo


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## Kavanaru (Jan 21, 2009)

Leo Schordje said:


> - Kavanaru - Don't bring the issue up over on that site, SOF, you'll get banned yourself. Peter has a strict no selling through contacts made on his site (unless his site gets an annual payment). In his mind - because I have a website that includes my name - if I post an image, and there is any clue as to my ownership of the plant, even just my first name, that constitutes selling through his site, and he wanted $150 a year at the time. He also bans people quickly if there is any criticism or even sarcastic remarks in general. I found it all too frustrating to deal with. He may not be a bad guy in person, I just find it hard to deal with the way he runs his site. This subject has been beaten to death on this site a number of times. It is basically old news & a long story. Others have similar stories. Best to just let the subject die.



no problem... I read that here today, and I forgot that here yesterday...


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## Kavanaru (Jan 21, 2009)

ORG said:


> Here is my own picture, not taken from the other side
> 
> 
> Best greetings
> ...



Olaf, Thanks a lot!!! 


very nice!


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## SlipperFan (Jan 21, 2009)

Awfully cute!


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## SlipperKing (Jan 22, 2009)

Thanks for the updated PICs Olaf.


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