# paphiopedilum liemianum



## J GDK (Sep 20, 2011)

First one, first time blooming.





Second one, I like color of folwer.


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## Cochlopetalum (Sep 20, 2011)

Lovely halo on the first, but colour is a bit light for a limianum.
I also like the colour on the second and I think the form will improve.
I would not mind having both of them.


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## Shiva (Sep 20, 2011)

Beautiful colours!


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## paphioboy (Sep 20, 2011)

Superb! Love the shape on #1 ad colour of #2... Now you can cross them..


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## W. Beetus (Sep 20, 2011)

I like the wide petals and dorsal on the first one. Quite nice!


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## SlipperFan (Sep 20, 2011)

I prefer the first one, also. But I don't think the color is true.


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## SlipperKing (Sep 20, 2011)

Cool, haven't seen one of these posted lately


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## biothanasis (Sep 23, 2011)

Both are beautiful but the second one is better!!! wow!!!


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## raymond (Sep 24, 2011)

very nice


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## Roy (Sep 25, 2011)

The first one is a very nice liemianum indeed. I doubt the second one is a pure liemianum though.


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## Cochlopetalum (Sep 25, 2011)

Paph. liemianum is my favorite species, so would you like to explain why you think the last may be a hybrid ?.


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## likespaphs (Sep 25, 2011)

is the dorsal on the second hooded?
it's hard to see the white stripe
(are there liemianum without a stripe or with a much reduced one?)


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## Cochlopetalum (Sep 25, 2011)

In my opinion, the second flower is underdeveloped and does not show its full potential. All cochlos can get those smaller, somewhat stunted flowers, when they have a difficult time. It may be due to water shortage, weak roots, etc.


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## Roy (Sep 25, 2011)

likespaphs said:


> is the dorsal on the second hooded?
> it's hard to see the white stripe
> (are there liemianum without a stripe or with a much reduced one?)



I agree and no, I haven't seen a liemianum without the white boarder to the dorsal. Dorsal shape and overall color, markings not right either. More like this influence of glaucophyllum or moquettianum. ( now both separate species. )


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## J GDK (Oct 4, 2011)

Waiting for a few days, I just can show the picture.






Some pics show that liemianum with green hood.

http://www.jekyap.com/paph_liemianum.jpg

http://coelogynekaz.web.fc2.com/flowersoftheyear2004l.htm

http://culturesheet.org/_detail/pho...m1.jpg?id=orchidaceae:paphiopedilum:liemianum


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## Roth (Oct 4, 2011)

Roy said:


> The first one is a very nice liemianum indeed. I doubt the second one is a pure liemianum though.



The second one shows some moquettianum influence. On wild liemianum I have always seen the white margin around the dorsal. moauetteanum masks the white margin, making it more green. For the first one, it is a very nice liemianum, if it is not from the same cross as the second one 

Many dishonest people sold a lot of crap in the early days, about 15 years ago, and now we pay the price. Except getting wild collected plants, there is no way to be sure that those award quality cochlos are the real ones ( except some vintage, Rohl still has real primulinum with the very narrow leaves in Germany, and there are some more examples...)



Cochlopetalum said:


> Paph. liemianum is my favorite species, so would you like to explain why you think the last may be a hybrid ?.



Liemianum always has the white margin around the dorsal, and not so much brown/red, that's why there is a doubt... That's the problem of collecting cochlopetalum :evil:






Cochlopetalum said:


> In my opinion, the second flower is underdeveloped and does not show its full potential. All cochlos can get those smaller, somewhat stunted flowers, when they have a difficult time. It may be due to water shortage, weak roots, etc.


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## Roy (Oct 5, 2011)

J GDK said:


> Waiting for a few days, I just can show the picture.
> 
> 
> Some pics show that liemianum with green hood.
> ...



None of these extra pics are of a P. liemianum. Nothing like it at all. Grower naming problem big time.
Major concern here is that should these plants be used in breeding and sold, the buyers will have plants of UNKNOWN parentage as this one parent is incorrect. Not an unusual occurance either.


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## Mocchaccino (Oct 5, 2011)

Roy said:


> The first one is a very nice liemianum indeed. I doubt the second one is a pure liemianum though.



I have no problem identifying most Paphiopedilum subgenus except Cochlopetalum. The species involved with the exception of primulinum always confuse me. Having doubt in mind, you are very brilliant enough :clap:

By the way, nice flowers.


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## Rick (Oct 5, 2011)

I think there tends to be a lot of variation in lieminaum flowers.

When I saw the 2nd pic I knew that the "purity" of the second flower would be questioned since the white halo is not so obvious.

I think the foliage is more key to identifying the species since there should be some strong purple bands on the leaf undersides of leimianum that is not present for glaucophyllum (or moquetianum).


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## Roth (Oct 5, 2011)

Rick said:


> I think there tends to be a lot of variation in lieminaum flowers.
> 
> When I saw the 2nd pic I knew that the "purity" of the second flower would be questioned since the white halo is not so obvious.
> 
> I think the foliage is more key to identifying the species since there should be some strong purple bands on the leaf undersides of leimianum that is not present for glaucophyllum (or moquetianum).



Honestly, it is only possible to identify wild collected plants, or eventually a large crop of diploids seedlings in bloom. Individual plants, or tetraploids, it's just impossible. Those things have been crossed and recrossed so many times, backcrossed... that in fact many hybrids look like the species, even the leaves ( the fake, that never existed, glaucophyllum album, and its sequel 
'The Return', moquetteanum album, are in fact selfings of Pinnochio yellow 2 generations away. In the F1 of Pinnochio, there were already glaucous leafed plants with yellow flowers, but the F2 were really spectacular as they indeed look like a 'wild species'.

For the underside of liemianum leaf, I used to think that the purple bands would be useful. However I got chamberlainianum latifolium, with its typical leaves and flowers, from the wild with those red markings, and I have some wild liemianum without... Liemianum leaves are pretty uniform however, they are thinner than chamberlainianum, coarser than victoria mariae or glaucophyllum, darker green. But for those I got as well mottled leafed plants...

Kalinae is much easier, it has extremely heavy mottling, many white squares on a greenish background. However even kalinae has been used to make complex cochlos hybrids for the pot plant ( the complex cochlos hybrids are the most important Paphiopedilum market for pot plant, so they tried everything and still do more).

I think, like the lawrenceanum album, spicerianum flat dorsal ones, etc... we have been too far in the breeding process to be able to surely say which plant is a species or not by looking at it. The history of the plant, if it is a real story, could help to know whether it might be the real deal.


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## UweM (Oct 6, 2011)

a small assistance for identification

http://www.shenliu.idv.tw/Cochlopetalum-species.htm

and leaves

http://www.shenliu.idv.tw/note/Cochlopetalum.htm

primulinum = var. purpurascens


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## SlipperKing (Oct 6, 2011)

UweM said:


> a small assistance for identification
> 
> http://www.shenliu.idv.tw/Cochlopetalum-species.htm
> 
> ...



Nice ID site.


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## Rick (Oct 6, 2011)

Roth said:


> Honestly, it is only possible to identify wild collected plants, or eventually a large crop of diploids seedlings in bloom. Individual plants, or tetraploids, it's just impossible. .



I'm inclined to agree with you on this one. Because there is variation in the wild and undocumented hybridization, type locality documentation is maybe the only true way to confirm identificaton.


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## SlipperFan (Oct 6, 2011)

Thanks for the links -- very helpful.


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## Roth (Oct 7, 2011)

UweM said:


> a small assistance for identification
> 
> http://www.shenliu.idv.tw/Cochlopetalum-species.htm
> 
> ...



Yes, but still can be applied to wild collected plants only. That's where we really have an issue with that group in fact... 

At present time, trying to ID seed grown cochlopetalum is like taking a Maudiae hybrid, and try to put a species name on it.


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