# The Cycle of Life - interrupted



## cnycharles (May 21, 2012)

Yesterday Ken Hull and I went to Vermont to check out some native orchids and take some pictures. When we were heading down the dirt road back to where Ken had parked his car, I stopped to check out some tiger swallowtail butterflies that were drinking up minerals on the road. 

After a minute I heard some minor scratching around on the far bank of the nearby ditch, and saw a somewhat large garter snake with the back hindquarter of a toad in it's mouth, with the rest of the toad waving around trying to get free. I decided that this would make a good photo op, so started trying to get pictures of the two. After I took a few pictures, the toad sort of looked at me as if to say 'Hey buddy, could you lend me a hand?' I said 'okay', and found a forked stick and held the snake to the ground so that it couldn't slither away. 

I took some more pictures and then picked up another small stick and commenced to smack the snake on the head until it decided that the toad was no longer interesting... it took a good 20 seconds before the snake could spit out the toad's leg, and after the toad slid down the bank (with it's leg hanging sort of limply behind it), the toad sat there collecting itself for a few minutes without moving. 

Since the toad was no longer in any danger and the snake was lunging at me in anger/fear, I once again turned to snap some pics of the widely-opened snake mouth. After the toad hopped far away I pulled up the stick and let the snake head off in the other direction. I didn't think that from the size of the toad and how small the snake's mouth was that it was ever going to get it all inside, and since I sort of like toads (they are unassuming and eat lots of flying bugs that can bite me and draw blood) I decided in favor of the toad. I don't have anything against snakes in particular,.....






garter snake with toad somewhat inside it's mouth





toad free and considering it's very good fortune





one very unhappy snake





one very extremely upset snake; nice view of teeth and whatever is inside a snake's throat

... and no, my camera doesn't have a video function, so no images on youtube of animal struggles or me smacking the snake over the head with the stick (PETA would have a field day with that  )


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## NYEric (May 21, 2012)

Cruelty to snakes!


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## Clark (May 21, 2012)

Seen some crazy feeding behavior on the last two trips.
Previously, I would of agreed- too big for mouth.
But now, just a matter of time.

Great open mouth shot!


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## Lanmark (May 21, 2012)

Cool pix and story! Thanks for showing us! :clap:


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## SlipperFan (May 21, 2012)

Looks to me like the toad puffed itself up so the snake couldn't swallow it.

I know snakes have to live, also. But I'd have been in favor of the toad, as well. Now a field mouse......


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## Ruth (May 22, 2012)

Cool photos, you probably saved the toad and the snake.


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## cnycharles (May 22, 2012)

NYEric said:


> Cruelty to snakes!



I prefer, "kindness to toads"!


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## Eric Muehlbauer (May 22, 2012)

That toad was perfect eating size for that snake. I've seen them eat far bigger. I love toads every bit as much as I love snakes. But toads can go through some real population bursts, especially upstate, and garters are one of their few predators. In the long run, the snakes predation does the toad's population a favor by keeping them controlled. And I'd rather have the toads end up as snake food than crushed under wheel and foot....something I've seen too much of.


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## nikv (May 23, 2012)

I probably would have high-tailed it out of there. I have an inordinate fear of snakes. Glad you rescued the toad, though.


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## Marc (May 23, 2012)

Nice to see that you've encountered a snake in the wild. It's something I haven't succeeded in so far.

However I can't agree with your intervention, you should have left nature run it's course. Nature is cruel but snakes have to eat as well!


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## bigleaf (May 23, 2012)

Good story and photos. Thanks for sharing.


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## John M (May 24, 2012)

I haven't seen any snakes around here for a few years. The last one was in 2004, in a pot in my greenhouse! However, now I've seen two ribbon snakes in less than a week. One of them I saw today and (what are the odds of this!?), it had just caught a Toad! It was just 10 feet from my back door and the toad was going down head first. The toad had puffed itself up nice and big; but, the snake was managing to slowly work it's gaping mouth further down the body. I've never seen this in my life; now, I've seen it twice in one week...here in this thread and in person at my back door! Anyway, I was conflicted about what to do; or not do. I like snakes and I like Toads. But, I decided to help the toad. I figured that the snake would catch another meal soon enough that I wouldn't know anything about; but, if I did nothing, this was the end of days for the toad....and I'd not stop thinking about it and feeling guilty for weeks. I'm a softy that way. It's little arms and legs were frantically flailing about and it was clearly desperately trying to back up out of the snake's mouth. I got all caught up in the point of view of the toad. I imagined that it could be thinking that if it had only taken a left instead of a right at the flower tub by the pond, none of this would've happened, etc., etc. So, I picked up a forked stick from under some nearby bushes and held the snake down. It immediately spit out the toad. When I released it, the snake took off in a flash. The toad had a very gooey, slobery, wet head; but, it was otherwise just fine. It blinked it's eyes and rubbed it's face with it's front feet as if to say "What the hell!!!?" I picked it up and moved it to a new location about 200' away. I was on my way to the greenhouse to water the plants. I know that snakes have to eat too; but, I just couldn't go about my business while I knew there was a perfectly innocent Toad in agony and suffocating as it was slowly swallowed milimeter by milimeter, by the snake. I didn't realise until it was all over that I had my camera with me! Duh! I had grabbed it on the way out because there was something in the greenhouse I wanted to photograph. I could've snapped a couple quick photos before I intervened. I'm still kicking myself for not thinking. 'Guess I'd better not quit my day job and become a wildlife photographer!

I have a feeling that this year will be the year of the snake. I've noticed that the wildlife populations seems to boom and bust from year to year. We had a VERY mild winter and I'm presuming that allowed a lot of snakes and prey animals to survive through until spring. I've "bumped" into 2 snakes this week so far and previously, it was years ago I saw a snake. I'm sure they were out there; but, I was not looking and there were so few that they had no problem staying out of sight. However, if the population is so high this year that they are coming out into the open and showing up in odd places in the middle of the day, I'm going to see them by accident a lot more this year. We'll see. I like to see them; but, I don't like to be startled by them.


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## Yoyo_Jo (May 24, 2012)

Oh man, hugs to you guys who saved the toads; you are my heroes! :clap:

I like snakes, but I wouldn't be able to stand to watch them eat a toad like that either.

Great photos Charles, especially of the snake's mouth.


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## Jaljala (May 24, 2012)

Nice pictures...
but would you appreciate if someone hits you on the head until you let go of the nice juicy steak you just managed to catch after hours of waiting for an opportunity ?


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## NYEric (May 24, 2012)

John M said:


> I'm a softy that way. It's little arms and legs were frantically flailing about and it was clearly desperately trying to back up out of the snake's mouth. .



I believe you and Charles were anthropomophisizing and aligning with the creature with arms and legs against the slithering reptile. If you expended the energy to capture what could be a weeks worth of meal and someone poked you with a stick to make you dislodge your food how would you feel!? :viking:


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## nikv (May 24, 2012)

This discussion reminds me of that TV show "What would you do?".


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## Yoyo_Jo (May 24, 2012)

NYEric said:


> ... If you expended the energy to capture what could be a weeks worth of meal and someone poked you with a stick to make you dislodge your food how would you feel!? :viking:



oke: It would make _me_ feel like eating something else. And not the toad.


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## John M (May 24, 2012)

Regardless of the cruel truth about nature and the way things are in reality, I think that anyone with even just a tiny bit of compassion would feel for the toad. There are valid arguments for both helping the toad and not helping the toad. But, my decision to help the toad was JUST AS VALID as one to not help. I have not done any harm to the balance of nature. It's simply not that big of a deal. I made myself feel better by not ignoring a creature's unfortunate circumstances. The snake will likely go on to catch another meal and the toad could very well go on to produce more little toads, feeding so many more snakes. I altered the course of history in a big way for the toad; but, in very tiny way in the grand scheme of things. I demonstrated my ability to have compassion and empathy for another creature in desperate need. The snake missing one meal is not as big a deal as the toad losing it's life. The unpleasantness that snake felt while being forced to give up it's meal was not as serious as the suffering that the toad was facing if nothing was done. I know the snake will eat again anyway and it has a right to; but, I also know that the toad now has a second chance at life. We should all be so lucky and I'm glad that I helped it achieve that. Doing what I did wasn't really about the toad. It merely makes me feel better about myself and it reinforces the idea that life is not just about yourself, it's also about noticing the suffering of others around you and being considerate and willing to help when you can. That makes me a better person which means I'll be a more valuable member of society as a whole. People without compassion and the ability to have empathy for others are like parasites; they use up resources to the detriment of others and they never give back. If everyone was like that, the world we live in would be very different and not nearly so enjoyable. Our general happiness depends on others considering what we'd like and providing us those products and services. Most of those people are paid to do what they do; but, they still must look at us, analyse what we want and provide it for us. We rely on consideration from others for everything from municipal services to Heather creating and maintaining this forum. We all need to be considered by someone else and we all benefit from their actions. Whey shouldn't we all do that for others as well. Taking pitty on a toad that is about to be devoured and killed is such a small gesture; if we're unwilling to do something like that, then how can we ever manage to do something bigger for other people? Actions speak louder than words. It's one thing to say you are a nice person; but, it is another thing to demonstrate that you are by doing something to prove it.


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## Ruth (May 24, 2012)

:clap::clap::clap::clap:Toad Hero's!!


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## cnycharles (May 24, 2012)

Wow! quite a discussion. I generally echo John's expressed sentiments, and generally have no ill will towards snakes and their eating of whatever. Nature does it's thing when i'm not watching, and that's fine. If I saw a snake with legs sticking out of it's mouth, then I would have said 'oh well..' and not had any bad feelings about anything too much. But, we had had a nice day and when this toad just happened to make eye contact with me as the snake was trying to head off with it, I decided that my day wasn't going to be as nice if I just walked off thinking 'too bad for you' (smile). I have seen people who were, in their lives, in a sort of position as that toad was; in the grasp of something that could take them under for good, and i'm sure that those people wished they had someone to help them out. It wasn't a person, and like john said the snake will eat again, and I did make sure to apply loving taps to it's head just enough to discourage it's holding onto the toad, and also to apply the forked stick to the ground to firmly hold it without harming the snake, until the toad was gone. I think life is made up of a collection of small gestures, and what effort we make towards little things will sort of show who we are in general. .. and in this world where everybody is in such a darned hurry to do whatever they feel like to distract themselves from important things, it is important to keep your eyes open to help in small ways whenever we can. especially in times when things are hard, we need to work harder to do things like this or else our hearts could turn cold. .. and i don't think there is much that can warm hearts that have turned cold. i completely sympathize with the knowledge that snakes must eat toads, or else we would be up to our armpits with them, but on that day and that situation that toad was going to hop away (hopefully not into traffic  ) :rollhappy:


.. and i have to jokingly add to the sentiment that 'let nature take it's course'; "if you were out in the woods and a bear started chasing you, and you happened to run by me and I had a shotgun in my hand, if you looked me in the eye and said 'help!; should I just say, 'let nature take it's course' ?"  :rollhappy:



John M said:


> I didn't realise until it was all over that I had my camera with me! Duh! I had grabbed it on the way out because there was something in the greenhouse I wanted to photograph. I could've snapped a couple quick photos before I intervened. I'm still kicking myself for not thinking. 'Guess I'd better not quit my day job and become a wildlife photographer!


you know, i've been told and read in photography articles and books, to always carry a camera with you. I used to more often but don't like leaving it around my car or at work when i'm working, but so many times i've seen amazing things and kicked myself because I didn't have my camera. .. and often i've been going someplace else with my camera to meet someone or had a long drive there and back, so that i was short on time.


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## Clark (May 24, 2012)

In my experience, there is never anybody around when a bear confronts you.
So, nature gets to run its course.
just saying...


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## Eric Muehlbauer (May 24, 2012)

Another thing to consider.....garter snakes ARE mildly venomous. Not enough to hurt a human (except in rare cases) but enough to affect their prey. Once that snake has gotten its teeth and saliva into the toad, it may well be unable to survive even if "rescued".


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## cnycharles (May 25, 2012)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> Another thing to consider.....garter snakes ARE mildly venomous. Not enough to hurt a human (except in rare cases) but enough to affect their prey. Once that snake has gotten its teeth and saliva into the toad, it may well be unable to survive even if "rescued".



news to me, thank you for pointing out


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## biothanasis (May 25, 2012)

Nice pics!!!!!


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## John M (May 25, 2012)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> Another thing to consider.....garter snakes ARE mildly venomous. Not enough to hurt a human (except in rare cases) but enough to affect their prey. Once that snake has gotten its teeth and saliva into the toad, it may well be unable to survive even if "rescued".



News to me too. I just read about Garter Snakes on Wikipedia. Ribbon Snakes, like the one I saw, are part of the Garter Snake complex of species. The toad that I saved had not been caught for long and it's head and face were undamaged. However, Charles's toad may have absorbed some venom as it's leg did look damaged. Apparently, the venom isn't injected via fangs; it's released in the back of the snake's mouth and it seeps into the prey animal's bloodstream via wounds that are created by a "chewing" action.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (May 25, 2012)

Yes...garter snake venom is not injected through fangs, but is in the saliva. When it was first discovered, it was believed to be toad venom that had remained in their mouths. AFIK, however, it is now believed that snakes of the genus Thamnophis (garters and ribbons) do produce their own venom.


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## NYEric (May 26, 2012)

John M said:


> I demonstrated my ability to have compassion and empathy for another creature in desperate need. Taking pitty on a toad that is about to be devoured and killed is such a small gesture; if we're unwilling to do something like that, then how can we ever manage to do something bigger for other people? Actions speak louder than words.



I disagree. I show compasion through my actions every day. I also show passion through pursuit of my loves, hobbies, and even work. The snakes 'survival' does come down to it consuming some creature just as your's probably does. Next time you have a chicken wing or ham sandwich or hamburger or fish filet you should pray that if an alien encounter ever happens that the superior aliens aren't bovine or supine, etc.


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## cnycharles (May 26, 2012)

well, we're really ranging far afield from what i ever imagined from posting a few pics of a snake and a toad; it boils down to the fact that the snake will live and likely eat something else. it's body condition was such that most likely it will survive to find something else to eat, if a hawk doesn't come along and eat it first. for the toad, it was lights out. game over. 

eric, you like snakes so you defend the snake. but, that is fine. both the snake and the toad are equally important in the grand scheme of things. the snake and the toad are both alive in this situation, and who knows maybe they will meet again with different results. otherwise, only one is alive. i prefer life, and the chance to do something. now, the toad and the snake can both 'do' something... at least until one or the other eats or gets eaten  . eric you mention the loss of a meal for the snake, but it's the loss of life for the toad; not equal at all. the loss of one meal won't do in that snake


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## NYEric (May 26, 2012)

I dont favor snakes or toads. Everything is food. The snake will have to eat something just as the toad will. This is the course of life and death in Nature.


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## John M (May 26, 2012)

Charles: Don't bother explaining. I think Eric has accidentally taken an overdose of "**** disturber" pills today.  This conversation won't be over until he feels that he's won, as if it was a contest and not a discussion.


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## NYEric (May 26, 2012)

No, no. not trying to stir up mierde or argue for argument sake. Pax.


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