# S/H Why is it hit or miss with indoor growers?



## Candace (Jun 2, 2007)

I thought this would be a good topic to discuss as I don't know for sure why, but from my forum experiences those who grow indoors are the ones who have problems with s/h. Those who grow in greenhouses LOVE it. People who have indoor growing set ups seem to either like it or don't. I don't know if it's the increased light and temp. controls that greenhouse growers have that indoor folks don't... But, it's a bit trickier to grow indoors anyway, so.... But, I've just noticed over the years that anyone writing in to the forums whose have problems with s/h are growing inside. This may be a good new topic to discuss actually, as there are different variables to why this is the case.


Lance, could you copy and paste your reply to this new thread?


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## gonewild (Jun 2, 2007)

Candace said:


> Lance, could you copy and paste your reply to this new thread?



The major variable is water. People who grow indoors tend to water less both in quantity and frequency. Greenhouse or outdoor growers generally water with a hose and apply lots of water with less effort. I personally don't like the idea of relying on the s/h pot reservoir to be the only water source for the plants on a daily basis. Leca makes a fine media in normal pots as long as it is watered frequently.


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## Kyle (Jun 2, 2007)

I agree with Lance. My SH experiment was short. My HPS lights would dry the surface really fast. New roots would die, established roots did well. 

Its a great idea, but didn't work very well for me.

Kyle


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## Candace (Jun 2, 2007)

Many people who don't have success with it inside talk about the roots rotting which I would see as not enough light and maybe too low temps coupled with too much watering. 

Many people growing indoors don't use supplemental lights and maybe their s/h problems would be different than those who use artificial lighting.


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## Kyle (Jun 2, 2007)

I use Hydrotron, becasue thats all I can get around these parts. My experiences might be better if I used PrimeAgra. Or if I made the reservoir deeper.

Kyle


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## suss16 (Jun 2, 2007)

I also use hydroton but only for a few phals that seem to do well. At this point I grow inside under flor lights. The upper third of the media alway seems dry but that might be a good thing. I threw a very distressed phal stobartiania into s/h and it is now outperforming the others - but I never planned on keeping it in s/h. Who knows? I have a few catts that do amazingly well in s/h. No paphs or phrags though - they seem to do well in my chc/hydroton/charcoal mix. 

By my personal experience I concur with Lance's comments about indoor growers. I now grow all of my indoor plants on 20" x 48" trays. My fiance helps me move them into a nearby shower and they get soaked for a while. Prior to adopting this method I just watered them and siphoned off the excess. I knew I never watered them "enough" and was always concerned with fertilizer build up. My plants have done much better over the past 8 months. And my fiance still wants to marry me!


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## Heather (Jun 2, 2007)

Well, I posted my comments on Phrags and Paph. seedlings in the other thread. 

I think for me, a lot of things were going on. I'm experimenting with about a dozen plants outside this summer and it will be interesting to see how well they grow. 

After seeing the roots on all of my Paph. seedlings and Phrags this week (the Phrag's roots were better but the leaves looked like crap due to (I think?) fertilizer burn) I am seriously thinking of going back to a more standard mix. The question remains, which one?! 

I used to use a nice CHC/Diatomite base mix from Kelley's Corner but I was getting a weird gray fungus in the mix (I used a similar mix from Tindara before that and had no fungus). What have people tried for multifloral paphs from Repotme.com?

On the other hand, I really adore the ease of use and less mess that Prime Agra affords me. I just like the idea of S/H so much, but I'm not convinced that my plants adore it as much as I. Perhaps there is a reason I've never bought a plant from a vendor and had it come potted in the S/H fashion.


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## kentuckiense (Jun 2, 2007)

I've come to adore a mix that has small bark/chc/charcoal with added granite/marble chips.


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## kentuckiense (Jun 2, 2007)

Heather said:


> Perhaps there is a reason I've never bought a plant from a vendor and had it come potted in the S/H fashion.


I'd chalk that one up to the cost of the s/h LECA medias.


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## Heather (Jun 2, 2007)

kentuckiense said:


> I've come to adore a mix that has small bark/chc/charcoal with added granite/marble chips.



And where do you get that mix, Zack?

My Mex. and besseaes (used to - the latter) love a small bark mix but I'm not sure my Paphs would like it so much. Not sure! If they would, this would be an easy switch but I think it might be too fine a mix.


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## kentuckiense (Jun 2, 2007)

I've never actually purchased it; I've just had some plants arrive in that mix. All the components can be found here: http://repotme.com/orchid_mix/SelectABlend.html

However, you're right, your multis may not react as well. I grow mostly Parvis in relatively small pots, so that could make a difference. For what it's worth, I grow all my phrags in a standard bark/charcoal/spongerock (from Kelley's) mix and they like it.


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## Candace (Jun 2, 2007)

> Perhaps there is a reason I've never bought a plant from a vendor and had it come potted in the S/H fashion.



The higher cost of the leca, like Zach pointed out, but also the increased cost due to shipping weight. It's a lot heavier than other media, expecially when wet. For large scale nurseries who ship most of their product (wholesalers expecially), this increase in shipping weight is lost revenue. The weight of the pots are one of the negatives of using s/h. I have people joke with me all the time about it's good that I'm young(ish) and in good shape or I could throw my back out lifting some of my plants


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jun 2, 2007)

I'm an indoor grower who puts his plants outdoors when the weather gets warmer...and I think for me, SH will be a thing of the past...I've tried every combination, from more fertilizer to very little, no luck. Some plants do well...a phal schilleriana and an Odtna are thriving and growing well, as maybe 1 or 2 phrags, but the rest are all doing worse than my regularly potted plants. All SH plants are in the old PrimeAgra....I like the idea, (but hate the looks of sh pots), but I think its run its course for me. Take care, Eric


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## NYEric (Jun 2, 2007)

All the [orphan] plant's I've gotten from indoor growers did seem to be showing symptoms of insufficient water. I don't like S/H because I water less from above as have the plants [phrags] sitting in running water. I have a NOID Pleuro that was dieing and I put it in S/H media in the watering trays and after the initial shock it is fulling out.


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## Candace (Jun 2, 2007)

Well, it would, for sure, be much more of a hassle to water indoors, so it makes sense people would put it off maybe a few days too long. Then the plants start to decline.


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## Ray (Jun 3, 2007)

I agree with Lance that watering is a significant aspect. Watering more frequently is better, as the chemistry in the reservoir changes with time, courtesy of plant processes and evaporation. That's certainly easier to do in the greenhouse. However, I'm certain that watering is not the only one that affects success. In fact, another major contributor that I've observed, as Candace mentioned, is temperature, and it can be a direct factor (warmer versus colder) or indirect (via evaporative cooling from the medium).

Greenhouses tend to be more humid than do homes, and that results in slower evaporation and less evaporative cooling.

The point is that "semi-hydroponics" does not, in any way, _*completely define*_ how one grows plants - there are too many other variables.

Speaking of which, maybe we should challenge Candace's original premise that more of the folks having problems are indoor growers. Let's consider that other ways:

There are more indoor growers than greenhouse growers, so maybe the frequency of problems is lower in the GH, but not the percentage (probably not, but it IS a way to look at the "data").
People having problems - for whatever reason - tend to be more vocal than do those who aren't. Maybe the percentage of problems is minuscule, but those are the folks we hear from.
I would think that there are a LOT more differences in home environments than there are greenhouse environments, and greenhouses are simply more "plant friendly" in the first place. I'll bet there are more problems with mounted plants in homes than in greenhouses. ("Mounted" being yet another example of an incomplete definition of how to grow orchids.).
GH growers tend to have more invested (time and money) in their hobby, and tend to be more experienced growers in general, so don't consider s/h culture to be "the complete answer", as many novice indoor growers seem to do, and therefore analyze and adjust better.
Following on with the experience level, we should also consider that many experienced, knowledgeable growers will fret less about a failing plant, so will analyze and take appropriate corrective action, or simply pitch it. The novice may tend to be very concerned that their "child" is not doing well (you can tell a lot about a grower by how they refer to their plants {"Oh no! _She_ seems to be getting limp...}), isn't very well versed in orchid culture, thinks that semi-hydroponics is a savior, then blames it when their already root-rotted, desiccated plant doesn't survive.


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## Carol (Jun 3, 2007)

I have had great success with s/h and also a few failures. Every oncidium type has done tremendous. The few phals I grow seem to thrive in it. The Hwra. Lava Burst 'Puanani' is now blooming and has great roots. My phrags are on the whole great, but a besseae and Tara lost all roots and are now sphag in the bag. I have no idea why the difference since all are grown under the same conditions. I am a window sill/light cart grower. All the orchids are outside now, except the bloomers that are inside for me to enjoy.
My paphs are a toss up. There seems to be such a difference from plant to plant, some seedlings do fine, some do not. Also large established paphs sometimes are wonderful and others just fail. I am very observant of the new root timing also. I have 2 Paph Darling 'Christiane' Am/Aos that I saved with s/h and one has just finished blooming.


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## Marco (Jun 3, 2007)

I had all my orchids in s/h at one point but then switched all my paphs out from it because the results were to highly variable. I do have 2 paphs in s/h that seem to love it. But long petaled hybrids didnt. And my phals seems to love s/h


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## ScottMcC (Jun 3, 2007)

up until recently, I had zero problems with orchids in s/h. I'm a home grower, and relatively inexperiened (about a year and change), but I like to think of myself as at least relatively intelligent and I'm trying my best to stay informed about the various aspects of orchid culture.

So anyway, last week I noticed that my phrag besseae in s/h was doing poorly. the whole plant had been slowly looking more and more dessicated, and then one of the leaves suddenly dried up completely and turned brown. So I unpotted it to find that 90% of the roots had become black, soggy, and friable, prompting me to trim them and put the plant in sphag n bag (actually wet paper towel and bag, but that's immaterial). Since then, it's been perking up some, but there's no new root growth at all yet so it'll be in the bag a while before I try to repot it.

Then a few days ago I noticed that one of my phal hybrids was a little wobbly in its pot, so I gave it a gentle tug and found that about 90% of its roots were completely gone, so I gave it an analogous treatment. It has some new root growth already though, so it should be able to go back in the pot soon. When I examined the media though, I noticed that it was full of ruddy sediment, and it took significant numbers of flushes to fully clean it out.

Yesterday night, I went around to every plant in s/h and gave it a good wiggle and close inspection. One of my Sharry Baby's had completely overgrown its pot, so I upsized it to the next size up, and when I did so, the pot was completely full of roots, just like the pictures on Ray's website. Two other phal hybrids were wobbling in their pots, and one had similar root loss (although to a lesser extent) but another's root system was in great shape. I repotted both of them in their old pots after thoroughly cleaning the medium.

So anyway, I'm not sure what's going on with these plants. I tend to agree with Ray's conclusion that there's more going on with these plants than just s/h vs bark, and that being a home grower is different than having a greenhouse, and that experience matters a lot, as well as a certain understanding that a certain percentage of plants are going to die, but I also wonder if there's something else going on. Part of me wonders if it's also related to water quality, because I use tap water, and part of me wonders if it's lack of air movement, because I don't always have a fan running. But it could also be related to the terribly fickle weather we've had this spring, as well as to the nature of my windowsills as imperfect culture areas. Anyway, I'll take anyone's suggestions.

EDIT: I should also add that the vast majority of plants I have in s/h are doing great--the ones with problems represent maybe 10% of the collection.


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## couscous74 (Jun 3, 2007)

I have paphs, phrags, oncs, dends, and phals in S/H indoors. They are all doing well. I water often and try to keep the humidity over 50%.
Every plant that I've repotted during new root growth has done well and thrived. I am stubborn and will repot anything anytime simply so I don't have to deal with different media. When I lose the occasional plant, I can say with certainty that the plant was already in trouble when I tried to switch it to S/H.

The problem for me when I first started S/H was that I was constantly checking on my "experiment". Constant unpotting to see if new roots were growing didn't do well for me, so now I practice neglecting them after I repot.

I like my Neos in their little sphag mounds too much to put them in S/H. I grow them over humidity trays and the roots of my older plants have all grown into the humidity tray reservoirs and are effectively wet roots, so I am sure those would do well in S/H too.


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## Grandma M (Jun 3, 2007)

I am an indoor grower. I grow under lights, both in my basement and in an unused bedroom. I sound like a broken record but........ I love S/H. All my slippers are in it and I have a LOT of them. I post my pic's quite often so you can see they do bloom for me. 

I was having trouble with my besseae plants until I moved them to a bottom shelf in my basement. It is a bit cooler there. I have some T5 units, and a HPS unit, but my besseae's are under T8 lights.

The one problem I do have with them is they are heavy. I have some phrags in Ray's 8" pots. Some are so full of roots that they should be moved into larger pots but they would be soooo heavy that I'm sure I would have problems trying to move them. I do sometimes take them, 2 or 3 at a time and place them in my shower, larger pots would become very heavy. oke: Don't suggest that I divide them because I love large specimen plants. One day I will need to do it, but not yet. What makes it an even bigger problem is that my large phrags are growing under HPS system in my basement. I like to take them upstairs when they bloom. Right now I have a huge Albapurpurem Sir Arthur', and a sendei var. Rosum 'Berncrest', which have been in bloom for several months but will need to go in the basement when arey are finished. That is heavy work.

I posted a picture of the sendenii before but I will post it here again. It has been in S/H for more than 2 years.

No......I don't work for First Ray's. :wink: I just like S/H growing.


http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3399


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## bwester (Jun 3, 2007)

because s/h sucks.


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## Candace (Jun 3, 2007)

> because s/h sucks.



Blake, were all your s/h plants grown in the greenhouse?


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## gonewild (Jun 3, 2007)

Maybe we need to define S/H for the sake of this discussion.
And I don't mean S/H = Simi Hydroponic

Is it a method?
Is it a system?
Is it a type of pot?
Is it a type of media?

How is it different from hydroponic?


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## Marco (Jun 3, 2007)

I think its a method and not much differennt from hydroponics. A term coined for simplicity for orchid growers so that products complimenting the method can be marketed a little easier than normal by suppliers. Potheads all over the world have been using it to grow weed for ages. I don't think marketing it as "it works for weed it should work for orchids" would tide over well with customers.


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## gonewild (Jun 3, 2007)

Marco said:


> I think its a method and not much differennt from hydroponics. A term coined for simplicity for orchid growers so that products complimenting the method can be marketed a little easier than normal by suppliers. Potheads all over the world have been using it to grow weed for ages. I don't think marketing it as "it works for weed it should work for orchids" would tide over well with customers.



Not being an expert on weed growing myself..... Do they use pots with side holes and rely on the media to wick the moisture up or do they use a true hydroponic method where nutrient rich water is applied regularly?


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## Marco (Jun 3, 2007)

Lance, Not saying I'm an expert either. But I've spoken to some people recently that have used pots in trays of still water when they started out and moved onto flood tables/hydroponics.. Ages might be an overstatments lol


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## couscous74 (Jun 3, 2007)

bwester said:


> because s/h sucks.



If you're a bad grower, S/H won't fix you. :fight:


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## Candace (Jun 3, 2007)

I think hydroponics and s/h are very similiar except for a few things. S/h allows each plant to live in it's own environment/pot, thus allowing virus and baddies to not be spread to all other plants in a hydroponic flow table situation. I also believe most s/h users let the plant dry out more than plants in true hydroponics. Although the philosophy? of s/h is to keep the resevoir full at all times, I'd wager most people who aren't watering every day, water when they see the resevoir either empty or almost empty. In hydroponics this doesn't happen. Water is regulated and pumped so the plants roots are in constant moisture.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jun 3, 2007)

I don't have to water everyday, and there is always water in the reservoirs. Those plants that like s/h have their roots growing directly into the reservoir. 
Outdoors they get more water than indoors,as I'm watering every day, mainly due to our miserable heat and dryness here in NYC....I think its going to be a rough summer. Take care, Eric


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## Candace (Jun 3, 2007)

I guess I should clarify...I water every day. Or almost every day. I've got so many plants in the g.h. that I do a different section of plants every day. If I had to do it all at once with my 5 gal. sprayer, it would take forever. But, because I'm watering one small section, my eyes are still on all the plants and if I happen to notice the water level in a pot in a section I'm not watering, is starting to get low or dry out I can water it while I'm there. I don't think home growers can do this. I would bet home many home growers do tend to let the pots either go dry or let the resevoirs get low.


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## Heather (Jun 3, 2007)

So Candace, 

Do you ever completely flush your plants so the water rises to the top of the pots, or do you just fill the resevoirs?


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## Candace (Jun 3, 2007)

Maybe once a month, I water with tap water from the hose and really flush out the pots. Usually when I do my typical R.O. with fert. watering, I water well and make sure a good amount drips out, but the pots don't get full to the brim as my pumper sprayer doesn't spray at enough pressure to do that and I've got way too many plants to be pluging holes with my fingers. But the dousing with the hose once in a while seems to work out fine for me. I think using R.O. water really helps keep the salts and mineral build-ups at bay. Since I've upped my fertilizer dosage this year, I'm probably going to have to flush the pots with regular hose water more than once a month.


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## NYEric (Jun 3, 2007)

ScottMcC said:


> I tend to agree with Ray's conclusion that there's more going on with these plants than just s/h vs bark, and that being a home grower is different than having a greenhouse, and that experience matters a lot, as well as a certain understanding that a certain percentage of plants are going to die, but I also wonder if there's something else going on. Part of me wonders if it's also related to water quality, because I use tap water, and part of me wonders if it's lack of air movement, because I don't always have a fan running. ..
> 
> EDIT: I should also add that the vast majority of plants I have in s/h are doing great--the ones with problems represent maybe 10% of the collection.


Yes I also agree that the water quality, as well as quantity, is probably an issue. But 10% of my collecton having a cultural or maintenance system problem would not be acceptable to me.


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## Grandma M (Jun 3, 2007)

Heather

I fill my pots to the top each time I water and let it flow out. I water my small pots, which I keep to one side, about every 3 days and all the others about every 6 or 7 days depending on the humidity and heat. I use MSU fert but about once a month I water with just plain tap water. I also have fans running 24/7 and use a humidifyer to keep it at about 55 to 60%.

I don't think S/H is for everyone. It depends on your growing conditions but for me it works well. We each need to do what works well for our conditions and life style.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jun 3, 2007)

I always top off until the water pours out the holes...I thought everyone did....Eric


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## Marco (Jun 3, 2007)

Eric M - thats what I do at least once every watering.


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## Candace (Jun 3, 2007)

> I always top off until the water pours out the holes...I thought everyone did....Eric



So, you don't plug up the holes with your finger, let it fill to the top and drain? You mean you're just topping off the resevoir and letting some water pour out, right? Just trying to clarify.


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## Ray (Jun 4, 2007)

Candace, in my opinion, you're better off to use a larger-volume watering method and just rapidly fill the pot to the top.

The chemistry in the reservoir changes with time due to evaporation and plant life processes, so it's best to change it. It seems to me that plugging the holes allows it to mix more freely throughout the pot, giving you a "somewhere-in-between" chemistry in the end, while the large-volume flush seems more likely to get more completely rid of the old stuff.


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## Ray (Jun 4, 2007)

A general comment, using semi-hydroponics as an example: attributing failure to s/h is like striking out at baseball, then blaming the bat. That also holds true for lights, potting media, fertilizers, etc.

Conversely, attributing success to s/h all by itself also demonstrates some naivety, as you have apparently not recognized some shortcoming in your culture that it merely may have helped. Again that also holds true for lights, potting media, fertilizers, etc.

Something else to keep in mind: Very often, when someone makes a change in their culture and is successful, the tendency is to credit something specific in that change, rather than looking at the whole picture. Take MSU fertilizer - it's good, but it is just a fertilizer. The "amazing success" some folks have when they switched to it is not due so much to the fertilizer, but because they began feeding their plants in a controlled, regular manner. After a while, they go back to their old, sloppy, every-now-and-then regimen, and the "MSU doesn't work any more."

The same is true with anything - and again using s/h as the example - if the transplantation is well timed, the rest of the growing conditions are right, and all of the method's requirements are met, the likelihood of success with it (or any other method) is quite good. Once the novelty wears off, the level of care given begins to wane a bit, and it's blamed on semi-hydroponics.

Put simply: *You've got to look at the whole picture!*


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## Candace (Jun 4, 2007)

> Candace, in my opinion, you're better off to use a larger-volume watering method and just rapidly fill the pot to the top.



That's good, I'll stick with my hose flushings. There's no way I can plug up holes with my fingers, anyway! They're so crammed in together!


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## Inverness (Jun 4, 2007)

I've been growing orchids for 40+ years. At one time, bark was considered a controversial potting material! For me , S/H allows a good fit for the way I want to grow orchids. I grow indoors, in basement, under HID lighting. Use RO water and water with a hose (floor drains). Everything gets watered every 5-7 days. Most prosper, some don't. Paphs, Phals, Catts, et.al. Community pots to full blooming size, aproximately 500 plants. As Ray commented, whole picture is very important. If I had to grow on a windowsill... well, that just wouldn't happen; just isn't a good fit for me.

Ken Brewer


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