# Multifloral rot



## Trithor (Sep 13, 2013)

I got back from the farm this afternoon to find a few of my (as luck would have it) best multis had developed a nasty case of rot. Affected are 2 roths, 2 m koopowitz, a gigantifoliums, a sanderianum, a philippinense, and two yang-ji apples. All the rest of my plants seem unaffected, but obviously closer inspection in the morning will be needed. The plants were distributed through the greenhouse (as in not near each other). The plants have a pale brown, to mid brown weeping aromatic infection. I have removed the plants from the greenhouse, unpotted them ( not much of note) cut away whatever infected tissue is feasible, and soaked them in Captab, and allowed them to air dry. In the morning I will dust with cinnamon (for whatever that is worth), and then I will repot and keep them isolated.

Any suggestions will be welcome, these are very special plants and form the core of my best plants (how does that happen?)


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## Fabrice (Sep 13, 2013)

Did you take photos please?

With your description, probably bacterial problem.

The origin could be cooling temperatures with not enough ventilation?


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## ehanes7612 (Sep 13, 2013)

i agree with fabrice..happened to me too


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## John M (Sep 13, 2013)

Sounds just like Erwinia infection. I am constantly inspecting my strap leafed Paphs and Phrags for this infection too. It shows up very suddenly and seemingly without any reason. I treat by promptly removing the affected tissue, even if it means the entire growth, right down to the rhizome. I spray the affected area with "No-Damp" and place the plant in a location where it gets a LOT of air movement. Usually, that means placing it on my potting bench, which is right in front of a 48" exhaust fan. If the fan is not running, I'll place the plant where it will get a good blast from the circulating fan. The next day, I will spray the entire plant with aspirin water (1 regular aspirin disolved in 1 litre of water). Most plants recover; some don't. It's disheartening. Prevention includes keeping your growing area clean, providing the best care possible (which reduces stress on the plants) and providing more air movement at all times. I know I don't have enough air movement and I intend to fix that by installing more fans....as soon as I can afford them.

Not sure if I should say this....because the "culture" here at ST has moved to be very anti-potassium (increase use of K-lite, etc.). However, I used to use a hydroponic feed most of the time (7-11-27), and it seemed to work very well for me. But, like many people, I was intrigued by the low K talk. So, I switched feeds and used ones with more moderate levels of K. Then, I began to get a LOT of this Erwinia rot...everywhere in my Paphs and Phrags. Finally, I went back to my 7-11-27 and the incidence of rot has reduced dramatically. It still happens; but, with much less frequency. Long ago, I came to understand that K helped make strong walled plant cells and that helped the plants to resist being infected by disease pathogens, like Erwinia bacteria. That's why I started using it. My experience with more rot when I stopped using it and then less rot when I went back to it has demonstrated to me that there's still more to learn about the benefits and drawbacks of a low K formula. I did notice that with less K, many plants had a growth spurt; but, what good is that if they are so soft that they get infected and rot?

I have also noted over the decades of growing that low calcium seems to invite bacterial infection. I've had plants that were cured of rot simply by watering them with Phostrogen, which is a high calcium fertilizer from the U.K.


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## Chicago Chad (Sep 13, 2013)

Sorry for the loss Trithor. Hopefully you can salvage your special plants.
Thanks for feedback John. I have seen some issues with plant tissue in a few paphs this year after switching to Klite, but I have not concluded that the fertilizer is the issue. You do make a good case with things to consider.


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## Rick (Sep 13, 2013)

I'd agree it sounds like Erwinia, and I use appropriate surgery, cinnomen and Dragons Blood to work it over.

However, there's research (and several personal accounts) that plants with inversed K and Ca tissue concentrations (i.e. more K than Ca) are more susceptable to erwinia. Cell wall integrity is due to Ca (not K), but unfortunatly once a plant makes a leaf under whatever mineral regime its immediately exposed to will determine its tissue content (a mature leaf cannot correct).

Since orchids and other epiphytes are extremely efficient at picking up K, even "moderate use" of K as John mentioned will not stop orchids from sucking up excess K and reducing leaf tissue concentrations of Ca and Mg. 

Talking to a plant pathologist, I was told that erwinia is cued in to growth hormones and the lysing compounds at the base of leaves. When the plant goes into growth of new roots or shoots, and old leaves are lysed off, the erwinia is cued in to the digesting site. If cell integrity is poor, then the infection can easily spread outside of the lysing area.

In comparison to John, and the longest user of a true low K feeding regime, my incidence of erwinia is has been greatly reduced over the last 2 years, and the handful of plants that show it are often able to get over it with no treatment at all.

The worst cases I still see are new plants that are still full of high K leaves.


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## emydura (Sep 13, 2013)

It seems extraordinary you would get so many cases of rot at the same time. Has anything in particular triggered this? Had you just watered? Did you get a cold spell. Did the heating stop working? 

All the treatment in the world isn't going to help if you can't determine what the cause of the rot is. Otherwise the plants will rot again including your healthy ones. We all get rot from time to time but it is unusual that so many healthy plants rotted at the identical time. It sounds like a specific event has caused this rather than ongoing cultural issues such as a lack of Ca or K.


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## John M (Sep 13, 2013)

Thanks Rick. 'Still trying to understand this. I have noticed that Calcium plays a roll in reduced incidence of rot. But, why then when I reduced my K; but, kept my C the same, did I see more rot? It's maddening to see a gorgeous, perfectly healthy looking (expensive!!!) plant suddenly become consumed by Erwinia. It's upset me so many times. I've sometimes considered getting out of growing because of the disappointments. It's always the most valuable or my favourite plants that seem to be hit. I'd LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to figure out how to stop this problem.


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## Rick (Sep 13, 2013)

http://www.fluidfertilizer.com/pastart/pdf/36p16-19.pdf

Noting that the above is beans and not multifloral paphs, the physiology of tissue Ca is the same for bean plants and orchids.

tissue Ca is always inversely related to tissue K, and K always is selectively inducted unless in very low supply (not based on ratio of K and Ca in environment).


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## John M (Sep 13, 2013)

Rick said:


> http://www.fluidfertilizer.com/pastart/pdf/36p16-19.pdf
> tissue Ca is always inversely related to tissue K, and K always is selectively inducted unless in very low supply (not based on ratio of K and Ca in environment).



Thanks! Now, can you say that in English, please?


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## orcoholic (Sep 13, 2013)

I've rotted some too. If you can save the plants they should begin to grow more divisions from the base. I rotted a roths and now it has five new fans growing from the base. Don't give up. It takes a bit of time for them to start, but as long as the plant isn't dead they should grow.

THere was a thread by Hardy where he actually removed the center growth and thus stimulated the growths at the base of the stump that was left after he removed the center growth. The same thing happens to Catts, Phals and a lot of other orchids that have active eyes at their base.


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## Rick (Sep 13, 2013)

John M said:


> I have also noted over the decades of growing that low calcium seems to invite bacterial infection. I've had plants that were cured of rot simply by watering them with Phostrogen, which is a high calcium fertilizer from the U.K.



SlipperKing and myself used to dump bonemeal (calcium phosphate) on active infections with some success.

I would only give that action 50/50, but SK Rick said he would see better results.


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## Rick (Sep 13, 2013)

John M said:


> Thanks! Now, can you say that in English, please?



The ratio of Ca to K is irrelevant since the plant finds and picks up any K no matter how little K is in the environment and no matter how much Ca is in the environment.

Since K is actually rare in the environment (relative to Ca) plants have active uptake mechanisms for K (that will block Ca uptake) to take advantage of high pulses of K.

The agri litterature is pretty well maxed out on this phenomena.

There was a study done by Cornell on orchids too in the mid 1970's (Stone posted the orirginal link, but I graphed the results and reposted recently). Even with 200ppm of soluble Ca available, orchids selectively increased tissue K when fert concentrations were lower than 200ppm. Even at 50ppm K and 200ppm Ca, Cattleya leaves had more K than Ca in their tissues, which is backwards for most wild orchids.

In order to get more Ca into a plant cell, you need to get K down to environmentally relevant concentrations of < 5 or so ppm. I've cut back my K exposure to less than 2-3 ppm for months on end with great results.

I have lots of non orchid house plants that grow great on my well water which has non detectable (less than 2ppm) of K.


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## Rick (Sep 13, 2013)

John M said:


> But, why then when I reduced my K; but, kept my C the same, did I see more rot?



Well a small reduction doesn't work for a start. Secondly once a plant is stuffed full of K, I really haven't found anything to reduce it in the leaves/growths already produced.

I don't think your short term reduction in K precipitated rots, but untill you get all new leaves, roots and growths made with high Ca content, the plants are just as susceptable to rot.

I'm still not ruling out the posibility that in a true low K system, that immediate uptake of increased Ca for a plant with good root system could possibly help build a plants immediate immune system, and subsquently reduce rots in plants with high tissue K. But I'm saying that because several of us experienced reduce infection rates in the first year of going low K.


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## Rick (Sep 13, 2013)

I also think phosphate has something to say in this mess.

It takes energy to run a metabolism, and ATP is the currency of all this. So I'd be concerned about P deficiency if Ca is relentlessly increased to compensate for K issues.


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## SlipperFan (Sep 13, 2013)

My experience is different from John's. I was having a terrible time with erwina, especially in my Phrags. Since I switched to K-lite, i've seen a gradual, but significant, decrease in erwina. I still get it occasionally, but nothing like I used to.


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## John M (Sep 13, 2013)

Thanks Rick. Lots to think about......


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## Rick (Sep 13, 2013)

John M said:


> Thanks Rick. Lots to think about......



You're welcome John.

Here's another thing to add to the pile to think about. The amount of K sequestered and stored in the potting mix can be considerable (check out Xaviers recent thread on different mixes and K http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31056 it also has those Cornell graphs I was talking about pgs 3 & 4).

So even if you cut back on K in the feed, there's still plenty sunk into old mix. So if you don't repot to fresh mix at the same time as going low K, you probably aren't going low K in real life for several months (if at all). 

At the time I went to low K, I had already gone into a big program to move most of my Paphs and Phrags into baskets (starting about 6 months prior), and I accelerated that program, and general repotting, after going low K.

Another anecdote, I purchased a couple of dalasandroi seedlings from FV early/mid last summer. Before repotting, and within a month both succumbed to erwinia. It was a very hot summer, and even with all the GH controls in place, I was still hitting about 88- 90F. So blamed the erwinia on excess heat. Tom very graciously replaced the plants from the same batch, within that first month or so. This time I repotted to baskets. Those replacements are not only still alive, but have at least doubled in size after a year. I've even bumped them off the bench to the floor a couple times breaking leaves, and not a hint of erwinia.


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## mrhappyrotter (Sep 13, 2013)

If it's Erwinia, I feel for you. I had a really severe outbreak of it about 10 years ago, and I am still extremely regretful about the plants I lost to it. I lost many of my treasured paphs and phrags to it. It makes me sad to even think about the lost plants. The rot didn't kill many plants outright, it was the after shock where I failed.

My problem was that I was too busy at the time, didn't notice it until it was too late, and then I had a really hard time recovering the infected plants. That stuff moves extremely quickly, and I wasn't experienced enough at the time to nurse my sick plants back to health.

I have a few phrags with caudatum-type backgrounds that periodically seem to be susceptible. Fortunately I have been able to catch it in time. I always remove the infected leaves, and I've been successful with cinnamon treatment. I still don't know why it strikes. I don't fertilize particularly heavily, I watch the caudatum group and hybrids like a hawk, and I have really good airflow via big fans. And yet, it seems to strike randomly.

Since the big outbreak, though, I've not had any issues with paphs and erwinia. Hopefully the advice in this thread will help.


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## naoki (Sep 13, 2013)

Gary, do you think aspirin might be helpful? It is well known that SA is important for plants disease (and stress) resistance. I wasn't sure if ASA (aspirin) has the similar effect, so I looked up a little more today. There are quite a few experiments showing externally applied ASA (aspirin) can have similar effects:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-313X.1992.tb00133.x/abstract
http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/20123408761.html
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1006386800974

Originally, it was resistance against TMV, but we now know the same defense pathway is used for fungal and bacterial infection.

I've started to folliar spray/drench with aspirin water this year. I can't say if I see any effects, but I haven't killed may plants this year. Did other people with more experiences try this and decide that it doesn't work with orchids? Obviously, it won't be enough by itself once the plants are already infected. But it may help a little bit.


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## Rick (Sep 13, 2013)

I think that was good that you resurrected the topic of asprin Naoki. I've not experienced any conclusive help from it, but I wouldn't leave anything off the table.


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## SlipperKing (Sep 13, 2013)

I'm going to go ahead and jump in here for support of Rick's ideas of elemental relations. Its a well know fact and its been mentioned here before that K is one of the mobile elements within plant tissue. As plants discard their old leaves, K is being relocated into the new tissues. Its my understanding potassium (K) is involved in 50-60 different enzymatic reactions within any given plant so it needs to be mobile. The fact plants keep their K probably is one of the reasons you find very little in the "environment" It is in the environment but its in plants not the dirt Back to the rot issue, I maybe wrong but the way I look at the K, Ca, Mg relationship is; in an unnatural environment, say a greenhouse, feeding too much K throws the balance out of whack. The plant cannot shed off K so it has to store it somewhere. What better place then where Ca and Mg go? Hence, weaken cell walls do to the wrong element. Soft weak growth ready for the eating(rotting).
I had two plants rot this summer, both with poor environmental conditions but not the fed water. M. Koopowitz with bad media-saved. A malipoense with poor light and air movement- may loose.
I've been following Rick's Klite. At first I started out at 100ppm N as I had with the old fert. Still lots of rot but the new leaves were shinny and a nice green. The more the forum discussed the issue of Klite I dropped my fert concentration down to the 50-60ppm N range then 20-30 range but very third watering. Currently I'm at 5-10 ppm of total N each watering which means the P and K is very low. I'm seeing tremendous growth in all Paph species, esp. strap-leafs. Two reasons for lowering the total nitrogen to the 5-10 range, Lance's reports coming out of Peru and at Rick's recommendation.

I've put a number of plants, mostly species, into baskets (less then a year) and I'm happy to report good progress so far. Two randsii seedlings from Sam with his wire twist-tie roots have put on nice roots. The better one has double in size. A BS single growth of Dollgoldi I had previous rot issues with has cleared up since putting into a basket.

I think a 2 year commitment is needed with the Klite trial. Time to clear the toxic levels of K out of your collection, time to get pass side issues such as rot and to see if plants you never bloomed actually do!

That's my 2 cents.


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## Rick (Sep 13, 2013)

Thanks Rick. Given the size of your collection, 2 plants in a summer would seem very low compared to what we've commiserated with over the years.

For me some of the bigger numbers are with seedling success rates. The first year out of flask or compot I would loose much more than now. It's almost a curse these days with flasklings and compots piling up all over the GH.


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## Trithor (Sep 14, 2013)

Thanks all for the response. Yes it was my suspicion that it was erwinia, but I am unaware of a specific treatment for it other than a bonfire. So as I said, I started with the steps that I can control. I removed the plants from the greenhouse, unpotted them, paid special attention to washing out the root zone, and soaked the plant in a Captab suspension for half an hour or so (I always believe that infections tend to be mixed, so if I can remove the fungal component, I am dealing with plain erwinia) I let the plants dry on a rack outdoors over night. I have just finished potting them into fresh mix, and have placed them back on the rack outdoors. The asprin is something I had not considered, so off to the local superette to get Asprin and cinnamon. I am unsure how well powdered cinnamon will work (I have not had any success in the past, so I will buy both powdered cinnamon which I will dust all affected areas, and cinnamon bark which I will steep in warm water and place in a small spray bottle and spray the affected plants once or twice a day). 
I am not aware of any change in any conditions in the greenhouse, other than as we go into Spring, the temperatures are obviously rising (perhaps the temp increase and more frequent watering has been the trigger) My greenhouse is still split into two treatments, Low K and regular K zones. Both sides have been equally affected. I am wondering if I should not supplement Ca, as our council water is very low in both Ca and Mg? Perhaps I should add small amounts of calcium and Magnesium nitrate to the water tank?(I run council water into a 2000liter tank which has home made carbon filter on its inflow (in an attempt to remove Chlorine and Flourides from the water).
Well off to the shops I go........


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## Trithor (Sep 14, 2013)

Here are some of the pics 

Firstly some of the plants affected (infected?)


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A pic of another plants leaf tip (this from a kolo) 


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This pic showing a roths with the base affected, and the plant next to it with a problem at its base. The plants have all received cinnamon and asprin. Later I am going to spray them with my cinnamon extract.


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## Justin (Sep 14, 2013)

that one on the far right in the bottom pic next to the roth, with the rot in its crown looks like a goner. I would pitch that plant before it spreads 

i feel your pain!

if you can get it, Phyton 27 is effective. A similar copper spray may help. 

Ca and Mg are a must for multis...


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## Rick (Sep 14, 2013)

Gary

Something that is generally not characteristic of Erwinia is for the infection to start in the middle or end of a leaf. Generally it starts in an axial and works outward along the leaf (surgery is tough in this case).

The kolo leaf pictured and the smell you described sure looks like Erwinia, but weird to see it at the distal end of the leaf. At least that is easy to cut off without affecting the base of the plant.

I've seen some odd things like this in Spring when still running heaters, but fluctuating cool mornings. I was concerned that condensation dripping off of hanging plants or the GH ceiling was hitting the plants with concentrated nasty bugs.


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## Trithor (Sep 14, 2013)

Rick, at this time of the year our humidity is very low. I only water early mornings, and may wet the floor during the day. I try to dry the plants by sundown, even if it means opening the doors to dry before the cool of evening. There are no drips at this time of the year, but they might start as general humidity rises in about a fortnight or so. I posted the pic of the kolo leaf tip as it was atypical of the rest of the infections. I thought that could have come from infection of a damaged area (the plants are so damned big, this plant measures 1.4m across and gets bumped all the time) I tried to cut the leaf with adequate clear tissue.
All the plants have now had a spray of cinnamon extract, and are starting a course of clindamycin in the morning


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## Ozpaph (Sep 14, 2013)

cut back the watering in the GH and add a fan or two.


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## slipperscout (Sep 14, 2013)

*Bacterial rot in all orchids*

In my experience drenching the plants with dilute Physan (0.5-1) tsp/gallon in early September and repeated early in October will markedly reduce the incidence of bacterial rot of the new soft growth of phals and paphs here in northen New Jersey. Coupled with very good air circulation the fall Physan drench will control this problem remarkedly well.


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## TyroneGenade (Sep 14, 2013)

This looks very much like what I was fighting. Start watering with bleach (5 mL domestos in 5 L of water) and hope the infection will stop spreading. Infected plants may be irrecoverable. I suppose the best would be to cut away infected tissue and soak the plants in the bleach solution. I found new growth was especially sensitive and the leaves could rot literally overnight. For some strange reason my insigne and Leeanum were totally resistant.

I suppose increasing the Ca and Mg in the feed might also help in disease resistance.

I suggest you go through your plants and look at them very carefully. Don't hesitate to tug on new leaves. I found the leaves looked OK but if tugged on slightly they would come loose and you could that they were rotten. Try to remove all plants with signs of rot.


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## John M (Sep 14, 2013)

Rick said:


> Something that is generally not characteristic of Erwinia is for the infection to start in the middle or end of a leaf. Generally it starts in an axial and works outward along the leaf (surgery is tough in this case).
> 
> The kolo leaf pictured and the smell you described sure looks like Erwinia, but weird to see it at the distal end of the leaf. At least that is easy to cut off without affecting the base of the plant.



I agree. Odd that the rot is starting in the middle and the end of the leaves.

Do NOT throw anything out, even if ALL the leaves are lost. I've had Paphs with this lose all but one leaf, barely hanging on and the rhizome eventually sent up a nice, new growth. They grow quickly because there is still a full adult root system feeding the new growth. It's not like starting from a seedling.

I don't see the use in sprinkling the Cinnamon on the surface of the leaves. Cinnamon is powdered tree bark. Tree bark has natural anti-rot properties. That's why it's so durable in nature. I use Cinnamon to dust on moist wounds that are exposed to the air. Dusting it onto a leaf that has soft rot inside; but, the "wet" rot isn't exposed to the air, really isn't going to be affected. You need to remove all the rotted tissue and dust the leftover, healthy; but, freshly exposed tissue with the Cinnamon to get the protective effect. I don't know what "Cinnamon Tea" would do, if anything.

Be VERY, VERY careful if you decide to water your plants with Bleach. I'd never do that for any reason. I tried to sterilize my rainwater holding tank with bleach about 18 years ago. I was told to do it by someone at Agriculture Canada. What a mistake! My plants suffered horribly! The bleach burns the plants and throws the pH WA-AAAAAAAY out of whack. My plants turned yellow and became stunted and generally looked awful for months, until they grew out of it. The pH swing dramatically interupted the plant's ability to absorb nutrients. The plants literally starved for weeks and that showed up as bright yellow new growth and a sickly green on the old growths. I'll never, ever do that again.

To sum up - here's my advice (What I do):
Any rot on the mid section or end of a leaf should be cut off.....cut well into the heathy tissue.

For growths with rot at the base, peel the leaves off one at a time, from the outside - in, right down to where they join the rhizome. Keep peeling until you get ALL the affected leaves. If that means all the leaves are removed and nothing is left but a stump on the rhizome; so be it. Spray the freshly damaged tissue where the leaves were removed with No-Damp, or some similar anti fungal / anti-bacterial spray (Physan?...3% hydrogen peroxide?). Dust liberally with Cinnamon powder. Place plant in increased air movement. Allow to dry thoroughly. The next day, spray the entire plant, including both sides of all leaves with Aspirin water. You can even drench the pot with the Aspirin water as well. Keep the plant in good light and in a fresh, boyant atmosphere with lots of air movement. Watch closely. Respray with No-Damp (or other), in a day or two. Respray with Aspirin water in a week.

If the plant is in bloom, pollinate a flower. I have NO IDEA why this works; but, whenever I've had a Paph with Erwinia that was in bloom, no matter how much of the plant that was lost, the rot stopped dead in it's tracks as soon as I pollinated one of the flowers. I once had a Paph. liemianum that was gorgeous. It was multi growth and in bloom with one spike. It got Erwinia. It lost growth after growth until finally, all the growths were gone except the one in bloom. Then the foliage on that growth began to rot as well. All the leaves were lost and I was left with a pot full of roots and a leafless flower stem. Not a single leave was left; but, there was a rather large green bract on the stem; that's it for green. I selfed the flower and cut off the growing point to prevent more sequential blooming. The rot stopped suddenly. The capsule fattened and grew. New growths began emerging from the leafless rhizome. As the capsule was nearing harvesting age (~9 months), the plant had a couple of nice, healthy new growths well on the way. It's a nice plant again; albeit, not as big; but, very healthy and rot free. I'll get blooms again next year, I expect. This was a plant that most people would've just tossed and given up on. Never give up unless all the tissue and rhizome and roots are dead.

I had a similar thing happen to a spectacular Paph. St. Swithin last winter. It was in bloom and it started getting Erwinia. I'd get it to stop...and then it would start up again. Finally as a last ditch effort to save the plant, when all the other growths were gone and half of the leaves on the blooming growth had been lost, I selfed a flower. The rot stopped dead in it's tracks and the capsule grew and ripened normally and was harvested recently. The plant is now putting up 5 new fans; all coming from the base of the bloomed growth which has just 3 small, remaining leaves.

Good luck!


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## gonewild (Sep 14, 2013)

John M said:


> If the plant is in bloom, pollinate a flower. I have NO IDEA why this works; but, whenever I've had a Paph with Erwinia that was in bloom, no matter how much of the plant that was lost, the rot stopped dead in it's tracks as soon as I pollinated one of the flowers.



This is an interesting observation. Perhaps when the plant begins to develop the fertilized seeds it translocates potassium from the leaf tissue to the developing seedpod. Or some other minerals get transferred that causes the leaf tissue to become unfavorable to the infecting pathogen.


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## TyroneGenade (Sep 14, 2013)

gonewild said:


> This is an interesting observation. Perhaps when the plant begins to develop the fertilized seeds it translocates potassium from the leaf tissue to the developing seedpod. Or some other minerals get transferred that causes the leaf tissue to become unfavorable to the infecting pathogen.



Or it starts producing something (a plant hormone) that increases the plant's immune system or that stunts the bacteria? Many possibles.

I had no trouble with dilute bleach and it did seem to slow the infectious agent provided I kept watering constantly. I suppose H2O2 with a little detergent would also work and break down quickly into something harmless. Another option is glutaraldehyde. It is used as a surface sterilant as well as a carbon source for plants. The down side is that it is very toxic in concentrated form and needs to be handled with care. The fumes are more toxic than the liquid. It can be bought in South Africa as Seachem Excel. The plant aquarium folks (such as myself) use it as a carbon source and general purpose algaecide. At the manufacturers instructed dose it is very effective and should be safe. You may actually want to use a higher dose. You can safely (i.e. nothing dies outright other than algae) dose up to 3x the recommended dose. You will need to add a wetting agent like Sunlight Soap. I want to repeat myself here: this stuff can be very dangerous so you have to work with it deliberately and carefully. No enclosed spaces!


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## John M (Sep 14, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> Or it starts producing something (a plant hormone) that increases the plant's immune system or that stunts the bacteria? Many possibles. *There's definitely something going on like you and Lance suggest. The reason why I pollinated the liemianum flower in the first place was to try to get a green pod go far enough along to get viable seed embryos. However, to my astonishment, the rot stopped and the rhizome began to sprout new leaf fans....AND it carried the capsule to full term! And like I said, now I've got a nice plant again. Shocking! So, finding out that selfing a flower was a way to halt the rot, was a happy accident. I had given up on the mother plant and just thought I'd be lucky to get some seeds. However, because it worked with that plant, I deliberatley selfed the St. Swithin with the hopes that the rot would somehow be halted.....and it was! Now, I've got the seeds AND a plant well on it's way to a great comeback.*
> 
> I had no trouble with dilute bleach and it did seem to slow the infectious agent provided I kept watering constantly. *The issue is probably the dilution rate. Clearly, it was too strong for my plants. I was not happy with the "scientist" at Ag-Can!*


..


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## gonewild (Sep 14, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> Or it starts producing something (a plant hormone) that increases the plant's immune system or that stunts the bacteria? Many possibles.



Do plants have immune systems? 

If it is the result of produced hormones then someone needs to discover the hormone compound!


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## abax (Sep 14, 2013)

Might Cleary's 3336 be effective against Erwinia?


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## naoki (Sep 15, 2013)

It is a very interesting observation, John. As Tyrone said, there are fair number of hormonal changes due to fruits (e.g. auxin and downstream ethylene). It would be very interesting to find out why fruit bearing plants can escape from infection.

Lance, yes, the plants do have "immune" system, but they are not MHC (major histocompatibility) based:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v444/n7117/full/nature05286.html


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## naoki (Sep 15, 2013)

I know we are talking about Erwinia, but it's interesting that this nature review paper talks that one species of Pseudomonas (not sure if it is the same species for orchids) produces jasmonic acid mimic (which suppress salycilic acid based defense system). So for this, it sounds like aspirin "could" help.


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## John M (Sep 15, 2013)

Interested in the Aspirin method of preventing and stopping rot? Read this thread. http://http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25983&highlight=aspirin

Although, I'm not now as much exclusively an ASA user (I started dusting with Cinnamon or Sulfer again and I've started using No-Damp first, then following with the ASA spray the next day), I still consider the ASA a major component in my arsenal against rots.


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## Trithor (Sep 15, 2013)

Thanks all for the info and concern. I will try as much of this as is feasible and update as things change (for the better or worse)


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## cnycharles (Sep 15, 2013)

abax said:


> Might Cleary's 3336 be effective against Erwinia?



Erwinia is a bacteria, and 3336 is a fungicide. Sometimes chemicals can work a bit for things other than what they are labeled for, and someone might have tried it for bacteria so it is good to ask. For example, there are fungicides which have a side-effect of being growth regulators! I know of two fungicides that are novelly used to gently slow down plant growth of some plants, though their label does not list this use..... The label of a chemical usually would list if it is a fungicide/bactericide.

For a quick internet check, if you have or are curious about a chemical and want to know what it is (it's 'official' information) or what it does, or how much you might want to use, you want to look for it's 'label'. To check cleary's 3336 type in 'clearys 3336 label' and you'll find that information; usually the label will be in pdf form and then other information can be found after that.

A search for orchid bactericides erwinia chemical controls turns up a link to research using epiphytic bacterial isolates to inhibit the growth of erwinia amylovora (which isn't the erwinia in question attacking the orchids here). So, there are fungal inhibitors used for helping to prevent disease in the soil which have been used for orchid growing; maybe there is something biological that can be used to assist in staving off erwinia outbreaks. One research paper that popped up during my search showed that a non plant pathogenic erwinia helped to inhibit erwinia amylovora


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## naoki (Sep 15, 2013)

John M said:


> Interested in the Aspirin method of preventing and stopping rot? Read this thread. http://http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25983&highlight=aspirin
> 
> Although, I'm not now as much exclusively an ASA user (I started dusting with Cinnamon or Sulfer again and I've started using No-Damp first, then following with the ASA spray the next day), I still consider the ASA a major component in my arsenal against rots.



John, are you using 500mg/l of aspirin (as indicated in the older thread)? I didn't know what would be the good concentration, so I followed someone who said 325mg/gallon (in the US, a tablet is 325mg), which is about 1/6 of yours.

One of the tomato research was feeding ASA via root absorption. So I've done both folliar spray and drenching.

It also seems to be beneficial for deflasking, too. I've deflasked only 3 times, so I don't have much experience. But the last time (this summer), I just used ASA without any other fungicide.


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## Trithor (Sep 15, 2013)

Well I have added two extra fans to the greenhouse to improve air movement. All affected/infected plants have been cleaned, repotted, dusted all over with cinnamon powder, given an asprin (in case they get a headache), sprayed with cinnamon 'tea', and moved to a shady spot in the garden.
I have started to move henrys, villosums, micranthums and a few others into wooden baskets. I should have around a hundred in baskets by nightfall. I might have to put a staff member onto making more baskets tomorrow. I thought I had enough baskets to last me a lifetime (obviously not, unless I die today, then that original estimate will still hold true)


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## gonewild (Sep 15, 2013)

Trithor said:


> I thought I had enough baskets to last me a lifetime (obviously not, unless I die today, then that original estimate will still hold true)



You better keep a close watch on your basket inventory.


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## Rick (Sep 15, 2013)

gonewild said:


> Do plants have immune systems?
> 
> If it is the result of produced hormones then someone needs to discover the hormone compound!



Yes. Maybe its not as complex as for animals, but looks pretty complex to me.

https://www.google.com/search?q=imm...%2Fwww.mpipz.mpg.de%2F10563%2Fpmi-dpt;800;613


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## Rick (Sep 15, 2013)

naoki said:


> I know we are talking about Erwinia, but it's interesting that this nature review paper talks that one species of Pseudomonas (not sure if it is the same species for orchids) produces jasmonic acid mimic (which suppress salycilic acid based defense system). So for this, it sounds like aspirin "could" help.



Just knowing that plants have a salycilic based defense system generally gives more weight to the use of aspirin for treatment.


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## Trithor (Sep 15, 2013)

I decided not to tempt fate and stopped with two baskets to spare. Time for a glass of red wine, then I can share an asprin with my plants in the morning


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## Rick (Sep 15, 2013)

http://www.pnas.org/content/92/10/4076.full.pdf

Check this out.

The plant physiologists have no problems linking disease resistance to salicylic acid which seems to be a natural phenomena in all plants (not just white willow!).

But it also seems to be established data that salicylic acid suppresses K and PO4 uptake by plants. Could this also suggest the inverse that high K and P inhibit the production of salicylic acid production in plants?:evil:

Why would the immune response in plants include an inhibition of K and P uptake?


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## Rick (Sep 15, 2013)

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...WNFEzBJEEaCiaKV9YA3Khwg&bvm=bv.52164340,d.eWU

Another agri link to salicylic acid and K.

check out the discussion that shows salicylic acid increases photosynthesis while reducing K (and for one reference) increasing Ca.


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## John M (Sep 15, 2013)

naoki said:


> John, are you using 500mg/l of aspirin (as indicated in the older thread)? I didn't know what would be the good concentration, so I followed someone who said 325mg/gallon (in the US, a tablet is 325mg), which is about 1/6 of yours.
> *I began using extra strength Aspirin (500 mg). Then, I learned that I was using it at a rate much higher than recommended. But, I liked the results that I saw; so, I compromised and lowered the concentration a bit and began using the regular strength, 325 mg tablets. I believe that this is still higher than required; but, it seems to work well for me. So, I haven't tried it at an even lower concentration.*
> 
> It also seems to be beneficial for deflasking, too. I've deflasked only 3 times, so I don't have much experience. But the last time (this summer), I just used ASA without any other fungicide. *I spray seedlings with the Aspirin water as a preventative and then, later, if I see any rot, I'll do it again.*



Rick. Those are some interesting findings. It seems that, in the end, everything ties together!


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## TyroneGenade (Sep 15, 2013)

The plant immune system is still a bit of a mystery. SA is a very common anti bacterial (and anti-viral) compound produced by plants but there are many other compounds, such as tannins and phytoalexins, which plants produce to prevent invasion of their tissues. Not only is there a hormonal system in the plant that alerts all tissues to invasion but the plants can communicate with neighbors to tell them to turn on their immune systems--perhaps this is why compots are so effective for orchids, one gets hit and the others are forewarned?

Trithor inspect each plant very carefully and make sure you keep the infected plants away from the others.


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## gonewild (Sep 15, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> but the plants can communicate with neighbors to tell them to turn on their immune systems--



Based on this fact of inter-individual communication should we, under rules of Humanity, continue to murder and eat plants?


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## TyroneGenade (Sep 16, 2013)

A question far too deep and philosophical for this forum, I think. Perhaps you should raise the issue on a PETA sponsored forum instead.


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## Cheyenne (Sep 16, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> The plant immune system is still a bit of a mystery. SA is a very common anti bacterial (and anti-viral) compound produced by plants but there are many other compounds, such as tannins and phytoalexins, which plants produce to prevent invasion of their tissues. Not only is there a hormonal system in the plant that alerts all tissues to invasion but the plants can communicate with neighbors to tell them to turn on their immune systems--perhaps this is why compots are so effective for orchids, one gets hit and the others are forewarned?
> 
> Trithor inspect each plant very carefully and make sure you keep the infected plants away from the others.



If plants can warn there neighbors to turn on there immune system when theyare infected, wouldn't you want to leave them with the other plants so they can warn them. If you remove them the bacteria is probably already in the area and the already infected plants can't tek the others.


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## TyroneGenade (Sep 16, 2013)

There is some debate as to how plants communicate. One idea is that they can do so via an interconnected root system. This was found to be the case with some Acacia trees in the Kruger National Park that were poisoning grazers. Most of the trees react to grazing by increasing production of alkaloids. Grazers have evolved to move quickly from tree to tree, nibbling a little bit as they go. The accacia were in communication and entire grove was upregulating alkaloid production all at once. Several grazers met an unexpected end.

So, one idea is that plants talk via their roots. As such, the close root contact in small pots could allow for communication (as well as more rapid chemical modification of the environment for nutrient extraction). Of course, we keep our adult plants individually in pots and plants don't seem to communicate via the air. The bacteria seem to waft about by air very effectively. Quarantining infected plants is, IMO, essential to getting this problem under control.


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## ALToronto (Sep 16, 2013)

I guess the plants have to be of the same variety for this communication to occur. My personal experience with plant combinations in the same container is that one or two will survive at the expense of all the others, but that's with different types of plants.


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## Cheyenne (Sep 16, 2013)

In one plant class I took, I think I Remember plants can communicate using certain compounds(maybe hormones) they can release in the air. 

Also in another thread a while ago I had mentioned this. At the time nobody really paid any attention to it. But I saw a study done on a show where they showed plants can communicate and also share nutients and compounds with each other via myco fungi connecting there roots together. The reason for this study was to see how a little sapling can survive under the giant canopy of all the other plants in very poor conditions, yet grow at a very fast rate. It showed that the larger trees were actually giving the small ones nurients to help them survive and grow till they can reach the light and better conditions. It was very cool to see that instead of survial of the fittest, they were living as a community and helping each other. I speculated at the time this may be why you can have faster growth and a better survial rate in a community pot than individual pots.


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## eggshells (Sep 16, 2013)

There is a documentary on PBS Nature that explains how plants communicate. When under attack, feeding, warning, etc.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/what-plants-talk-about/video-full-episode/8243/


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## TyroneGenade (Sep 16, 2013)

Cool, I wasn't aware plant could communicate via the air. They get more fantastic every day.

Thanks for the info Cheyenne and Eggshells. Very cool.

ALToronto, there is a lot of allepathy among different plants and it is a killer... But seedlings seem to like community. I do wonder if, at some later stage, they begin to try kill each other off. Hmm... I sense a study of mixed-species compots coming on... Thank goodness I don't have a greenhouse a big budget to indulge my experimental whims.


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## naoki (Sep 16, 2013)

Rick said:


> http://www.pnas.org/content/92/10/4076.full.pdf
> 
> Check this out.
> 
> ...



Cool, I will take a look (when I get some time, which might not happen for a while). But, I'm guessing that it is unlikely that the inverse occurs. For some reason, SA might be signaling to reduce K, P uptake. But SA synthesis is likely to be determined by other processes (which needs to signal the other cells). SA signal is also used for other stressful condition (e.g. dehydration), so maybe if there isn't enough water, they might be stopping nutrient uptake because concentration in the cell may become too high?

The example Cheyenne points out is very cool phenomenon. I think "parasitic" Corallorhiza is the typical example. But I wouldn't say that trees are helping those orchids. It's just an example of heterotrophs; i.e. zebras (trees) aren't "helping" lions (orchids) by getting eaten.


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## gonewild (Sep 17, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> A question far too deep and philosophical for this forum, I think. Perhaps you should raise the issue on a PETA sponsored forum instead.



No way! those guys support animals and animals eat plants.


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## Leo Schordje (Sep 24, 2013)

gonewild said:


> No way! those guys support animals and animals eat plants.



:evil: I'm with you on that Lance. I'm a carnivore, I eat no vegetables. Save the plants! Give me steak, though a few mushrooms fried in butter to serve on top is a real nice touch, but we won't count mushrooms as plants, they're fungi. Bacon is good too.


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## Ozpaph (Sep 24, 2013)

Leo Schordje said:


> :evil: I'm with you on that Lance. I'm a carnivore, I eat no vegetables. Save the plants! Give me steak, though a few mushrooms fried in butter to serve on top is a real nice touch, but we won't count mushrooms as plants, they're fungi. Bacon is good too.



Leo, Im packing my bags and on my way over for dinner!:rollhappy::rollhappy:


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## ALToronto (Sep 24, 2013)

I know vegetarians who won't eat mushrooms because they're too much like meat...


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## SlipperKing (Sep 24, 2013)

So Gary, what's the status of the rot issues?


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## Trithor (Sep 24, 2013)

Hey Rick, a week plus down the line, not worse, not better, two doses of asprin, but to be honest, I think the biggest factor is removing the plants from the greenhouse. They are outside in a very low humidity. They seem to be drying out and holding their own. I am keeping them very dry, only giving them water when absolutely needed. I will only move them back to the greenhouse in two or three weeks. I will post an update photo tomorrow pm. I think it is difficult to understand the climate. We are at 12 degrees night, 27 degrees day and about 10% humidity. so dry and hot with cool evenings. Kind of mummification conditions, ideal I think to cure rot.


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## The Mutant (Sep 24, 2013)

It's good that the weather is cooperation with you at least. Me and the cats are keeping our fingers crossed.


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## Trithor (Sep 24, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> It's good that the weather is cooperation with you at least. Me and the cats are keeping our fingers crossed.



Thank you


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## Secundino (Sep 24, 2013)

How can cats possibly cross fingers?


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## The Mutant (Sep 25, 2013)

Secundino said:


> How can cats possibly cross fingers?


Hehe, I was wondering if anyone would react about that. They can, they definitely can. :rollhappy:


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## 2Toned (Sep 25, 2013)

Secundino said:


> How can cats possibly cross fingers?



why, purrrrrrrrrfectly! :rollhappy:


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