# Cyp./Paph hybrid?



## McKatelyn (May 4, 2010)

I have a garden full of Cyps(6 types currently blooming) and windows full of Paphs. Now, this might be a totally dumb question but is it possible to make a hybrid between the two? They are related....right? My thinking is that if you took a cold hardy Paph like armeniacum or micranthum ( mine have been off and on outside since last Feb) and crossed it with any number of Cyps, you would create a evergreen truely hardy Orchid hybrid. Has this ever been tried or is it even possible? I know you can cross Cattleya with Laelia because they are closely related. What does everyone think about this?


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## kentuckiense (May 4, 2010)

McKatelyn said:


> I have a garden full of Cyps(6 types currently blooming) and windows full of Paphs. Now, this might be a totally dumb question but is it possible to make a hybrid between the two? They are related....right? My thinking is that if you took a cold hardy Paph like armeniacum or micranthum ( mine have been off and on outside since last Feb) and crossed it with any number of Cyps, you would create a evergreen truely hardy Orchid hybrid. Has this ever been tried or is it even possible? I know you can cross Cattleya with Laelia because they are closely related. What does everyone think about this?



I believe someone at Orchids Limited put some Phrag pollen on a Cyp pubescens. It sounded like the Cyp underwent apomixis and produced a pod full of straight Cyp pubescens seeds. I'd bet people have tried making a Paph x Cyp, but I highly doubt any crosses have been successful.

I suppose you could try, but I'm guessing the chances of anything taking are extraordinarily small. After all, Paph and Phrag are sister clades, and there aren't any _verifiable_ intergeneric hybrids between the two. Cyp and Paph are even more genetically distant.


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## Dido (May 4, 2010)

I have geard some years ago that someone crossed reginae with Paph, 
and it was produced a capsula, but never heard what was coming out. 
I think about years of this and never tryed it. 
But i am not an expert of germination seeds, so I give my seed away to 
produce seedlings. Hope you will try it and mybee you will be the frist one to get it. 
In europe there was at last selling someone Hybris between Bletilla and other kinds and Serapis and other kinds, so maybe you find the right cross and get it.


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## valenzino (May 4, 2010)

I know only one succesfully germinated hybrid that was Cyp reginae x Paph emmersonni,but never heard again about it so dont know if flowered or they were succesfull in deflasking and growing.In this hybrids,deflasking and first months growing is the most difficult part.In Phragmipaphium,is really a challenge.I heard that someone in germany germinated a lot of phragmipaphiums but all died after deflasking.
I have germinated also some crosses,but few survived....so obtaining seeds is only first step,and the easiest....also the right media for germination and after replating is another big challenge....difficult but always worth trying...


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## Drorchid (May 4, 2010)

Yes, I have tried crossing both Paph's and Phrags on Cypripediums. No Luck :sob: thus far. But if no one tries it will never happen, so go for it!

Robert


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## John Boy (May 4, 2010)

It’s certainly not a dumb question. People all over the planet have been asking, and approaching the question from the same angle, and with micranthum and armeniacum in mind (one might add!) as you are. I have a hunch that is simply a matter of quantity (dunno…say 1000 pollinated flowers = one pod with viable seeds) and trial and error. As we know: Paph. X Phrag can work, though it’s not easy, and we don’t yet have convincing results. One thing is sure: You will be needing a good lab, should you end up with a pod. So planning ahead as well as choosing your candidates is as important, as a good documentation is.


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## PaphMadMan (May 4, 2010)

If you have healthy plants and the interest, go ahead and try. Definitely make croses both ways, Cyp x Paph and Paph x Cyp. There is no down side except some prematurely faded flowers, and sooner or later someone is likely to succeed. It might as well be you. As others have noted, you will want to find a good lab to handle the flasking if you get a pod. One with experience with Cyps woudl be ideal.


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## NYEric (May 4, 2010)

Frankenstein!


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## KyushuCalanthe (May 4, 2010)

You can try, but as stated, it will likely not produce plants. Maybe if you could get a bit of C. subtropicum pollen and try it on a Selenipedium...wow, just getting those two together would be a challenge!


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## Dido (May 5, 2010)

Stopp it about this thinking I can not sleep anymore. 
Where I can get a Selenipedium to try it. 

Just kidding.


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## ohio-guy (May 5, 2010)

would it be easier in theory to cross 2 4N plants, then each gamete would have a full set of genes, and the seed would then be fully half of each parent species?


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## Drorchid (May 5, 2010)

ohio-guy said:


> would it be easier in theory to cross 2 4N plants, then each gamete would have a full set of genes, and the seed would then be fully half of each parent species?



Great thinking! Yes in theory the chance of getting a viable offspring will be much higher when you cross two 4N plants together (If they are not closely related), because like you said you still keep a whole "genome" together from each species. you basically just combine the two together instead of pulling two genomes apart when you cross two diploid plants (resulting in non viable offspring and sterility). This is how wheat came to being, wheat is what we call an allopolyploid. In the past, 3 species hybridized but kept each genome from each species (a whole set of chromosomes from each species) creating an allohexaploid that was viable (Wheat is AABBDD if I remember correctly).

First now we will have to make 4N Cyps. Thus far I know they don't exist yet, so yes in theory we could cross a 4N Cyp to a 4N Paph, and cross the resulting hybrid to a 4N Phrag resulting in a allohexaploid (CCPaPaPhPh) to create something similar (genetically) to wheat..... lets get to work...

Robert


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## nikv (May 5, 2010)

^ ^
Robert, that sounds like a good homework assignment for you. :wink:


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## ohio-guy (May 5, 2010)

Thanks for fleshing out the idea Robert. It seems like it would be easier to start with 4N species paphs and phrags that already exist, until someone finds a 4N cyp. By starting with 4N species, you won't have any odd match up of chromosomes. Or maybe it would promote fertility if you start with paph hybrids and phrag hybrids, as they already are mismatched for chromosomes often times, and might somehow bypass problems with blending the different groups.


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## KyushuCalanthe (May 5, 2010)

Drorchid said:


> First now we will have to make 4N Cyps. Thus far I know they don't exist yet, so yes in theory we could cross a 4N Cyp to a 4N Paph, and cross the resulting hybrid to a 4N Phrag resulting in a allohexaploid (CCPaPaPhPh) to create something similar (genetically) to wheat..... lets get to work...



Yeah, but would it be delicious?


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## Drorchid (May 5, 2010)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> Yeah, but would it be delicious?



I don't no if it will be "delicious" for the tong, but maybe "delicious" for the eye, who knows??

Robert


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## fundulopanchax (May 15, 2010)

There are a few 4N Cyp's in Connecticut.....

Since some Cyp primary hybrids are sterile (or close enough to count as sterile) I have been playing the game that some Paph hybridizers have found useful - making the 2N "sterile" hybrids 4N and then crossing. Certainly get more protocorms that way. This was originally suggested in a talk by Harold Koopowitz and then I found it in other Paph literature. Seems to be working - the proof will be in flowering offspring. 

I should obtain some 4N Paph's and play.

Ron


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## paphreek (May 15, 2010)

What are some known 4N Paphs?


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## Rick (May 15, 2010)

paphreek said:


> What are some known 4N Paphs?



Roths and lowii come to mind. I believe these were all colchinase induced polyploids.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were some 4N parvis produced out there too by now.


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## likespaphs (May 16, 2010)

wow. there are 4n roths?
crazy!!!!


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