# What would the Paph Goddess Do?



## Heather (Dec 16, 2006)

Well, I'll settle for your opinions.  

I just removed the lowest leaf on my lowii which had become infected w/ Erwinia (is it me, or are lowii prone to rot??) between yesterday at 4PM and today at 4PM. I didn't even water it yesterday, but I did move the plant into a place where it was getting more direct air from an above fan, and my lights were on all night (you'd think that would dry things out but apparently no). 

When I removed the leaf, I noticed a new fatty root growing which likely was causing it to die off, and I imagine the change in conditions just helped it along. I would like to cinnamon the area of next lower leaf. It is a darker color but isn't rot. However, I don't want to kill the nice new root by drying it out with cinnamon. 

I have listerine and I have neosporin, but I've not used either before. And cinnamon of course. 

What should I use to disinfect so I don't kill the root but I make sure the next leaf won't succumb?


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## bwester (Dec 16, 2006)

hmmmm. what would Brian Boitano do????

PHYTON FRIGGIN 27 WOMAN!!!! I've told you a million times!!!!


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## Heather (Dec 16, 2006)

Awww, you know me...I'm afraid to open my phyton!!!


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## couscous74 (Dec 16, 2006)

Heather, you could try using the Phtyon without opening the bottle, but it will probably be much easier if you do. oke:


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## Heather (Dec 16, 2006)

did I not give y'all three choices? I think I did....oke:


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## gonewild (Dec 16, 2006)

I think the Listerine and Neosporin may injure the new root. Listerine because of the alcohol and if the Neosporin is a creme it may contain an oil base.
The cinnamon would be the best choice of the three but it may cause the root to dessicate.

I have recently been experimenting with a natural product we sell at ShopGoneWild.
*Dragon's Blood* is used by indigenous people in Peru as a treatment for infections and many many other human ailments. It works on people and it seems to work on bacterial infections on plants also. I'll find some pictures of the test's I've done on plants and post them.


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## SlipperFan (Dec 16, 2006)

I've seen this a lot on my Phrags. I use hydrogen peroxide in a spray with a fine mist and have had no problems with the new growths.


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## Ron-NY (Dec 16, 2006)

Dot's 4th suggestion is good plus you could mix some cinnamon with water and apply with a cotton swab to avoid the root


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## Rick (Dec 16, 2006)

Heather said:


> Awww, you know me...I'm afraid to open my phyton!!!



Don't be afraid.

I used it allot this summer, and it seemed to make a difference.


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## John M (Dec 16, 2006)

In order to prevent more incidents of Erwinia on your lowii, remember that lowii is an epiphyte and therefore it must have very good quality water and a very open, airy mix that also retains ample moisture. Water that is good for most other paphs is not good enough for lowii, haynaldianum or parishii. They are fussy that way. They hate any mineral salts in their water and especially any salts buildup in the mix. Drying it out only concentrates the salts into something more toxic and running the lights all night is adding even more stress to the plant, further reducing its' ability to fight off disease. Imagine having an infection and your immune system is trying to fight it off; but, you're forced to stay awake all day, all night and all day again! You're gonna feel like CRAP and probably keep getting worse until you are able to get the rest (sleep; down-time) that you need. 

Use gallons and gallons of fresh, clean, naturally soft water (rain water, or R.O. water) and flush the mix over and over and over. Be warned though, it's hard to stop the tendencey for a plant to rot, once it's started. The trick is to never let it get to the point of toxic salts stress, such that the plant is weakened enough to allow opportunistic bacteria like Erwinia to even get started. 

If it were my plant, I'd unpot it and use a coarse spray to "scrub" all the old potting mix and any soft, rotted tissue away; but, be gentle around tender new root tips. Then, I'd dust it with sulfer or cinnamon and repot it in fresh mix. From then on, I'd use only very pure water and flush the pot well each time that I water. Even when using rain water, salts will build up if you don't flush the pots well at each watering. When you feed these species, go light on the fertilizer concentration too; at least until well established and multigrowth. Then, maybe use the same concentration as your other Paphs; but, still keep up the practice of using lots of high quality water inbetween feedings. Good luck!


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Dec 17, 2006)

I'd clean it off, then leave it alone. I think the chemicals cause more damage, and cinnamon just seems to dry things out. When I find a rot that is restricted to a single leaf, complete removal is all that ever seems to be necessary. And yes, lowii does seem more prone to problems than other multiflorals...Take care, Eric


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## TADD (Dec 17, 2006)

Yet another reason to not own a lowii.... oke:


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## patrix (Dec 17, 2006)

*Just Thanks*

I always learn something new from the site. Where can I find pictures of Erwinia damage? I expecially liked John M analogy about the body- I am back in the hospital from chemo pneumonia and develpoed a nasty little bug because of no immunity, Be assured that rest is important to heal and grow whether you are a Paph, Phrag or Patrix- I wish a little cinamon and H202 would do the trick for me but am on the mend.

The worst part is that the weather has been beatutiful and all of the orchids this site has prompted me to order are arriving. I have my partner unpack them, and try to read me the names ( bad tags he says). Until I can get to them, Slippertalk has kept me connected with my passion-thanks. 

Heather I hope their suggestions work well for your baby


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## Heather (Dec 17, 2006)

First off, Patrix, TAKE CARE! Anything we can do to help around here, you just name it. 

Secondly, John M., I think you've got it. My lights are on screwy timers and I was away overnight. Last night they went off and came on as they should, so it is possible they did the night before also. I was assuming they were on all night because I've been having trouble. 

However, I have NOT been flushing as much as I should and water may very well be the issue here w/ my lowii. I will follow your suggestions today and flush with lots of distilled water. 

I am always reticent to use the big guns unless absolutely necessary...

Thanks all!


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## likespaphs (Dec 17, 2006)

sounds kinda like it's necessary?
i'm in the same boat as you. i ain't got no problems with pesticides but fungicide freak me out....
anyone know how long phyton will last? five years? ten years? longer?


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## gonewild (Dec 17, 2006)

patrix said:


> I always learn something new from the site. Where can I find pictures of Erwinia damage? I expecially liked John M analogy about the body- I am back in the hospital from chemo pneumonia and develpoed a nasty little bug because of no immunity, Be assured that rest is important to heal and grow whether you are a Paph, Phrag or Patrix- I wish a little cinamon and H202 would do the trick for me but am on the mend.



Patrix, Your wish can come true in a sense. I have *personal* experience with some of the South American plants used in natural medicine practices. Please read the following manuscripts:
Vilcacora1
Vilcacora2
_Vilcacora_ is the Quechua name for the _Cat's Claw_ vine. It is also called _Una de Gato_ in Spanish. Despite the manuscript titles they are not about religion. The herb is being used successfully in Europe to reduce problems caused by Chemo treatments among many other things.

I wish you the best of health and a speedy recovery.


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## bwester (Dec 17, 2006)

you're wasting your time with these "natural" remedies. Its all crap, use something thats been PROVEN to work!!!


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## gonewild (Dec 17, 2006)

bwester said:


> you're wasting your time with these "natural" remedies. Its all crap, use something thats been PROVEN to work!!!



Sorry, I mentioned it. Feel free to remove my worthless post.

Heather, forget the cinnamon since it is natural it can't help.


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## SlipperFan (Dec 17, 2006)

I'm with you, Lance...


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## Heather (Dec 17, 2006)

Aww, Blake's a good friend, don't be so harsh!! I value his opinion! But I also grow in RI not GA. I take all with a grain of salt (see the Lance Birk posts, lol!) 

So far, no spreading of rot, not physan/phyton used....stay tuned!


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## bwester (Dec 17, 2006)

Sorry to offend you Lance, but I feel its just about like giving your kid some cinnamon for a respiratory infection instead of an anti-biotic.


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## gonewild (Dec 17, 2006)

bwester said:


> Sorry to offend you Lance, but I feel its just about like giving your kid some cinnamon for a respiratory infection instead of an anti-biotic.



No, You did not offend me. But since you made a very strong statement would you explain why you feel that way? Did you have a bad experience with natural medecine?

Had you taken the time to read the info I linked to before you declared it "crap" you would see it in no way suggests using the herbs to replace prescribed medicine. The info indicates use of Cat's Claw may drastically reduce the side effects of chemo, I thought Patrix may be interested.
(Several European countries have approved the use as a medical treatment.)

My personal experience is that had I not had Dragon's Blood and Cat's Claw when I contracted Necrotic Cellulitis (flesh eating bacteria) in the jungle I believe I would be dead now. If you want proof I'll be happy to post a picture, but it is not pretty. I've personally seen proof the herbs I refer to have worked on other people, I wish I could cite it here.

If someone undergoing chemo therapy can possibly lessen the bad side effects and destruction of their immune system by drinking tea that tastes good, I think they have a right to know about it. It is a shame to dismiss an herb as "crap" until you know it is. We don't want to get started on the corruption surrounding "prooven" drugs, or do we?

Someday if your kid is suffering from a respiratory infection that antibiotics are not stopping I hope you will remember a jungle plant may be an added boost that does not have side effects.

Until living among people that rely on natural medicine I would have tended to agreed with you about the effectiveness of herbs in treating ailments. But I was way wrong.


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## likespaphs (Dec 18, 2006)

i laughed out loud when i read his post. 
i like very strong opinions (about anything). they often make me laugh...
plus, he's probably never used vinegar as an underarm deodorant, a hair conditioner and a skin toner. 
just between you, me and the neti pot, i bet there isn't a wormbin in the basement, either....


oh yeh, some natural remedies are 'proven', so there!


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## Heather (Dec 18, 2006)

Aspirin=white willow bark. Used by the native people of this country for centuries. 

Digitalis...um...I could go on?


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## bwester (Dec 18, 2006)

I was talking about the fight against aggressive bacteria. I'm am quite aware of the fact that many drugs are derived from natural items. However, i stand by my previous posts when it comes to nasty bugs like erwinea. Plus, i bet there were some anti-biotics in addition to the dragon's blood and cat's claw, Lance, am I wrong???


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## likespaphs (Dec 18, 2006)

yeh, erwinea sucks!
the big guns absolutely have earned their place.


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## Heather (Dec 18, 2006)

I dunno tho...I've never had to use anything other than removal of the affected area and cinnamon to stop the spread of rot.

I'm totally guilty of over-using those anti-bacterial wipes in my home, to the extent that I need to test myself for an allergy to them, but with the plants, I'm really reticent to use anything more harsh. I've almost killed a couple plants in the past due to over-zealous insecticidal use so, I'm wary.


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## likespaphs (Dec 18, 2006)

instead of being over-zealous, it may have been phytotoxicity...

i think that anti-bacterial stuff is being overused and we're on our way to superbugs.


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## Heather (Dec 18, 2006)

likespaphs said:


> instead of being over-zealous, it may have been phytotoxicity...



Likely. Still, such precedents have made me wary...



likespaphs said:


> i think that anti-bacterial stuff is being overused and we're on our way to superbugs.



Agreed.


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## likespaphs (Dec 18, 2006)

Heather said:


> Likely. Still, such precedents have made me wary...
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed.



copycat...


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## NYEric (Dec 18, 2006)

*Reality check:*



bwester said:


> I was talking about the fight against aggressive bacteria. I'm am quite aware of the fact that many drugs are derived from natural items. However, i stand by my previous posts when it comes to nasty bugs like erwinea. Plus, i bet there were some anti-biotics in addition to the dragon's blood and cat's claw, Lance, am I wrong???


OK wombats, time for a reality check. I'm pretty sure medicinal use should be based on one's personal preference. I personally have been an antibiotic abuser. I have some unidentified blood symptom that caused me to get abcesses when I scraped my skin, which was every week due to diving into bunkers in paintball practice. I went through so many antibiotics that most of them now dont work. Luckily I don't have the problem so often. I'm sure that combinations of medicines natural and synthetic or processed can be used to take care of most symptoms [although they may not cure the disease]. Remember in the book 'Orchid Fever' how someone [notice no names mentioned] attributes using chemical treatments on Paphs to the extent of damaging their own health; I use Physon undiluted on my plants. I'm sure [the coughing is a giveaway clue] that this isn't healthy for me but it's my choice. Let's be cool and just contribute our advice. Your's truly, Eric. P.S. Heather, I thought you were the Paph Goddess. :wink:


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## bwester (Dec 18, 2006)

I'm sorry, I failed to see the reality check on that one, Eric. However, when I end up with copper poisoning from my exposure to phyton, I'll be sure to try some dragon's foot or cow's penis and see how it comes out. At least my plants will be healthy though.


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## SlipperFan (Dec 18, 2006)

bwester said:


> I'm sorry, I failed to see the reality check on that one, Eric. However, when I end up with copper poisoning from my exposure to phyton, I'll be sure to try some dragon's foot or cow's penis and see how it comes out. At least my plants will be healthy though.


Dragons may have feet, but cows do not have a penis.oke:


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## Heather (Dec 18, 2006)

SlipperFan said:


> Dragons may have feet, but cows do not have a penis.oke:




:rollhappy:


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Dec 18, 2006)

Heather, you're lucky I've spent the last week watching House so I can formulate some advice.

The way I see it:

You've removed the affected leaf, and made it a point to let that area dry out. Problem solved. 
It's like killing a weed. You can spray natural herbicides or chemicals that would make your hair fall out to kill it, or you can set a pot over it so it doesn't get any light thus depriving it of something it needs to survive.

Jon


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## Heather (Dec 18, 2006)

LOL Jon, exactly. 
Just prompted me to check on the plant - no new rot. All seems to be well...


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## bwester (Dec 18, 2006)

SlipperFan said:


> Dragons may have feet, but cows do not have a penis.oke:




Thats what gives it its magical powers.... DUH!!! oke:


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## gonewild (Dec 18, 2006)

Cows don't have penises because the pharmaceutical companies secretly remove them at birth to use make antibiotics.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Dec 18, 2006)

I don't know...seems to me to be some crossed paths here....and I sympathize with both points of view. My take was never that Lance was encouraging a switch from chemo to herbal remedies, more that the herbal remedy might provide some relief from chemo discomfort....I agree that the idea of giving up established treatments for alternative treatments (herbal or not) gives me the shivers ...(I still get the horrors thinking about how one of our family friends was so proud about how she made sure that a relative dying of pancreatic cancer was treated only with shark cartilage and homeopathic remedies...despite the objections of the entire family..it was apparently a pleasant end only in her eyes...) On the other hand, herbal "remedies" are still the major avenue of ethnobotany ...including some promising antifungals...(aside from the well known aspirin and quinine, the anti-cancer vincristine was derived from a jungle plant, the Madagascar periwinkle...) Politically, of course, the promise of potential medicines is one of the major cards that are held in the fight against habitat destruction in the rain forests...cute paphs just can't cut it in that department...(gee, how would people feel about CITES restrictions if P. hangianum had chemotherapy potential?) Actually...could be the other way around...when taxol was first discovered, environmentalists were coming under fire for wanting to protect the Pacific yew trees in which it was found...it has since been synthesized....regardless, as I ramble....there is a difference between relief of discomfort and an unproved cure...I can see how one would encourage the former, discourage the latter (in ordinary, not extreme circumstances). I for one am fascinated by herbal remedies, but I'm not about to jump on them...I take pseudoephedrine for my sinuses, not herbal ephedra...I prefer to know my dose (I know of at least one case of atropine poisoning from a simple tea of herbal burdock...herbs are not standardized, and dosage may vary...just ask any druggie how one batch of pot can vary from another..at least in the days before hydroponic superweed....and I have to admit, reference to jungle vines automatically brings to mind Banisteriopsis caapi, ayahuasca, yage.....William Burroughs...and the great Richard Evans Schultes...) I think there is also a bug up many people's butts about the "natural" medicine outlook, relying on echinace (makes me gag and feel even more sick) and homeopathic placebo's (although I do find cold-eze zinc helpful for colds about half the time...)...I can't disagree about that...I have that same bug ...and even Andrew Weil made it very clear that when it gets serious, you do not deal with alternative medicine...Enough...everyone needs a break now! Take care, Eric


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## gonewild (Dec 18, 2006)

bwester said:


> Plus, i bet there were some anti-biotics in addition to the dragon's blood and cat's claw, Lance, am I wrong???



No you are not wrong. I used antibiotics as well, once I was where I could get them. It was 2 days before I reached a doctor in a remote village. After returning home (in Peru) every doctor that saw me wanted me in the hospital to be on a IV drip of antibiotics for at least 30 days. They said I would loose my leg and most likely die. I choose to stay home and rely on herbs and twice daily injections of Cepro. Every doctor said it was a miracle I lived. 
But this is exactly my point... *You can use both, it is not and should not be one or the other*. 

People have been brainwashed to forget how to use free medicine from nature. None of the natural remedies will ever be "prooven' in the USA. The FDA won't allow it. And we all know the FDA is not corrupt and only has the peoples best interest in mind. Oh wait, maybe I saw something in the news about that?

When you hear the mention of a natural or herbal remedy don't make the mistake of confusing them with the phony extracted mixed up products being pushed and promoted by pseudo-pharmaceutical companies. There is a difference between natural and manufactured.


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## gonewild (Dec 18, 2006)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> My take was never that Lance was encouraging a switch from chemo to herbal remedies, more that the herbal remedy might provide some relief from chemo discomfort....



100% correct Eric. I would never suggest otherwise. I have been told Cat's Claw (Uncaria tomentosa) when taken between (not during) chemo treatments has reduced or eliminated the side effects of the treatment. Since Patrix said he was suffering from side effects of chemo due to a reduced immune system I thought he might like to know about an alternative. 
The articles I linked to are not sales propaganda but rather a history of the modern discovery of a medicinal plant once reserved for the Inca royal family. They are a good read.


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## NYEric (Dec 19, 2006)

gonewild said:


> But this is exactly my point... *You can use both, it is not and should not be one or the other*.
> 
> There is a difference between natural and manufactured.



Therein lies the reality check.


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## bwester (Dec 19, 2006)

NYEric said:


> Therein lies the reality check.



Once again Eric..... no reality check. Using both would mean using both the phyton or clearys AND whatever natural item you choose. However, thats kinda pointless since it goes against the whole reason to go natural in the first place. right?


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## gonewild (Dec 19, 2006)

bwester said:


> Once again Eric..... no reality check. Using both would mean using both the phyton or clearys AND whatever natural item you choose. However, thats kinda pointless since it goes against the whole reason to go natural in the first place. right?



NOope.

A lion has no choice, it must eat meat.
A cow has no choice, it must eat vegetables.
A human has a choice, it can have both steak and salad if desired.

Why not use *free will* and use all elements at hand?

Who said anything about "go natural"?


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## NYEric (Dec 20, 2006)

_Salad? Aint that that green stuff they put around the meat and taters?_


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## gonewild (Dec 20, 2006)

NYEric said:


> _Salad? Aint that that green stuff they put around the meat and taters?_


Yep. Packing material.


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## NYEric (Dec 20, 2006)

NYEric said:


> P.S. Heather, I thought you were the Paph Goddess. :wink:


Am I the only one who saw this?


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