# What happened to.....



## Stone (May 9, 2018)

all the juicy culture conversations we used to have?

For me - who grows most Paphs from flask - I have found the fastest development is to keep them in crowded community pots and very warm for the first 3 years or more. 20 to 29 degrees C all year without a rest. All species cold and warm growers are treated the same. fluoro lights (for aquariums) and a strong air flow 24/7. Humidity is always high. In those conditions they need drenching every second day and just grow and grow. In fact I think I can keep them in this situation until they are almost mature. And I would if I only had the room!
My big mistake in the past was to separate them into small pots too early where they would sit and do absolutely nothing!


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## ehanes7612 (May 9, 2018)

I tested this on a variety of multifloral paph flasks...and found that if you separate them it's best to do it right out of the flask or years later...when they have lots of energy to recoup. I found that you should wait about two years or more to separate out if you start as a clump. I didnt notice any significant difference in singles or clumps from the start (people will argue against this , I know..I let the seedlings tell me ..if they easily fall apart I grow them in singles..if not, in lumps..sometimes both for the same flask). I tested this on two flasks of the same cross and got the same growing results. My 'big mistake' was also separating out six months after deflasking, which I stopped doing five years ago. One thing I do now is wash off all the agar...but I probably grow wetter than most people. I think you probably could keep them in the condition you describe as they are well adapted to those conditions by the time they get some size on them...I have roths that are now 18 inches in LS (from March 2014 deflasking) and they are used to a lot of water and doing great...viability of the mix is key here..why I dont use bark.


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## naoki (May 10, 2018)

I also prefer minimum disturbance, and put them in one pot (to save space). They stay there for 2 years usually. Similar to Ed, I'm not sure if they grow better compared to singly potted, though. With the clump, I don't notice dead plants easily, so I "feel" better about it! I do wonder if they put more resources to leaves under crowded condition (competition for light).


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## AdamD (May 10, 2018)

Ooh, good theory, the fight for survival. Do you think plants are competitive? I do. I just potted up two catasetum flasks in single pots. It’s a little different, I know. But to grow those babies in compots... Trying to untie the roots would be a lesson in sadism. 

Quick question, have you guys used Innocucor? Curious to hear if it helps or not with seedlings. There haven been many cultural convos in a while. The bottle I have is expired? Does that make sense? Can probiotics expire?


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## Stone (May 10, 2018)

All I can say is that for me at least, there is no comparison to the growth rate of single and community pots. The growth is at least twice as fast if not three times. I could be a more even moisture content or more root room or stimulation from their neighbours or all of these. I learned this for reading Tanaka's page on potting up flaskings. He also advises to put small plants back into compots after you thin out the big ones.


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## ehanes7612 (May 11, 2018)

Stone said:


> All I can say is that for me at least, there is no comparison to the growth rate of single and community pots. The growth is at least twice as fast if not three times. I could be a more even moisture content or more root room or stimulation from their neighbours or all of these. I learned this for reading Tanaka's page on potting up flaskings. He also advises to put small plants back into compots after you thin out the big ones.



all of this may depend on a variety of conditions that haven't been accounted for ...regional differences in water quality, difference in mixes, differences in lighting , differences in flasking medium. Maybe when you separate out into singles you do it differently than others? Maybe your method of singling out seedlings is not the best way (don't get offended , just saying)...who knows??? I have roths, lady roths and Hisinying Anita  from deflasking into singles immediately from four years ago that are as big as anyone is reporting from the same exact crosses from people who started out as clumps...so my take on culture..there is no one superior way...whatever works best for you. I first tried looking at Antec's website years ago and followed their advice...worst thing I could do..their methods would not translate in my conditions. I think following advice from websites is a hit or miss thing and should be taken with a grain of salt...effective apprenticeship comes with an experienced grower working with novices side by side to understand all the nuances with horticulture....otherwise it takes a very discerning eye to know what works well for you and lots of patience to go at it alone and a lot of expense....you have found a method that works for you...I would definitely stick with it


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## ehanes7612 (May 11, 2018)

I will say that it's probably a bad idea to separate out brachys at deflasking...the roots break so easily...and I am pretty sure the root hairs they have hate being disturbed in the slightest

also for my new phrags, I grow them in clumps...the roots are very tiny and would be very difficult to separate out ..I am afraid I would break them also.


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## Ray (May 11, 2018)

AdamD said:


> Quick question, have you guys used Innocucor? Curious to hear if it helps or not with seedlings. There haven been many cultural convos in a while. The bottle I have is expired? Does that make sense? Can probiotics expire?



Rather than hijacking this thread, I'll start another to respond.


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## xiphius (May 11, 2018)

I wonder if it's as simple as increased humidity from tightly packed seedlings creating a more ideal growing environment (microenvironment of the compot)? I notice that seedlings potted with live moss similarly grow much faster. Also, in my experience, it's the seedlings towards the center of the clump in the compot that tend to grow the largest/fastest. These would also be subjected to the highest levels of humidity from their neighbors.

Just spit-balling here, there are obviously a lot of other factors that could be at play that might be having a larger impact...


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## Stone (May 11, 2018)

ehanes7612 said:


> I will say that it's probably a bad idea to separate out brachys at deflasking...the roots break so easily...and I am pretty sure the root hairs they have hate being disturbed in the slightest
> 
> .



I separate everything at deflasking including brachys. I have never planted seedlings as a clump straight from flask. It's not the initial separating that seems to be an issue, it's keeping them separated. If some are completely stuck together then I'll leave them like that but that has been fairly rare.

Like this...http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/endeflasking/enflask.html Click on the bottom of the page for the potting procedure etc.


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## ehanes7612 (May 12, 2018)

Stone said:


> I separate everything at deflasking including brachys. I have never planted seedlings as a clump straight from flask. It's not the initial separating that seems to be an issue, it's keeping them separated. If some are completely stuck together then I'll leave them like that but that has been fairly rare.
> 
> Like this...http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/endeflasking/enflask.html Click on the bottom of the page for the potting procedure etc.



Ever have to deal with a flask from the Roots in California? (they are used exclusively by Orchid Inn), pain in the ass...they devised the agar so that you would have less jumbling but in doing so makes it very difficult to remove agar and the roots become more difficult to separate out. They are the most difficult flasks to work with in deflasking


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## Tom Reddick (May 12, 2018)

ehanes7612 said:


> Ever have to deal with a flask from the Roots in California? (they are used exclusively by Orchid Inn), pain in the ass...they devised the agar so that you would have less jumbling but in doing so makes it very difficult to remove agar and the roots become more difficult to separate out. They are the most difficult flasks to work with in deflasking



Check out Coryopedilum Chronicles II that I posted a few months back in the Breeding and Production forum. There I have photos of a little tool I improvised that makes handling those flasks much easier.

It is basically a piece of florist wire with a little loop twisted at one end to scoop the agar away from the roots. Works like a dream for me, and since you are only scraping the agar away a little at a time you eliminate the risk of doing it by hand breaking away the larger chunks and having roots break off with those chunks.

As for the comments about brachys- they are tough to handle and I have always found them the most difficult flasks. The hairy roots tend to be long and stick together, and I have ended up using the same tool noted above to separate roots very carefully- especially when 2 or more long roots are attached to each other for extended distances.

Just a few months ago I got several bellatulum flasks from Orchid Inn and decided this time to just pot them in clumps and not spend hours trying to separate the plants into smaller and looser groups. So I basically broke them in two carefully- which still took a good bit of time.

Now, just a few months later the compots are insanely crowded- and tomorrow I am going to have to split them out again into groupings of 5-6 plants per 4" compot. They grew that fast- which is nice- but I do not relish the prospect of disturbing them again so soon and how that might possibly set them back.

Fingers crossed and I am sure all will be well in the end, but if I had to do over again, I would have taken the extra time to separate them out a bit better up front.


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## ehanes7612 (May 12, 2018)

Tom Reddick said:


> Check out Coryopedilum Chronicles II that I posted a few months back in the Breeding and Production forum. There I have photos of a little tool I improvised that makes handling those flasks much easier.
> 
> It is basically a piece of florist wire with a little loop twisted at one end to scoop the agar away from the roots. Works like a dream for me, and since you are only scraping the agar away a little at a time you eliminate the risk of doing it by hand breaking away the larger chunks and having roots break off with those chunks.
> 
> ...



I use a curved dental pick..I have done over a 100 flasks from Orchid Inn so I have gotten some skill at it but I would still prefer looser agar


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## Ozpaph (May 12, 2018)

I use a hose on soft pressure to wash out the agar - especially Sam's dense agar.


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