# Help -paph pods



## goldenrose (Apr 25, 2011)

Is it time yet? It appears that I've made 4 out of 6 successful crosses! When does one know when it's time to snip & send the pods off for flasking? Now considering, Chuck's statement of 'been looking for a competent flasking service for 6 years', who do you use?





From left to right -
1.) Little Trouble x Lucky Bells on 11/28/'10
2.) InCharm Topaz x (helenae x JollyGreenJem) on 12/4/'10
3.) (venustum x helenae) x Bacon Trix on 12/26/'10
4.) Lunacy x (Sierra Bell x bellatulum) on 1/16/11
failed - (helenae x JollyGreenJem) x Tommy Hanes and Skip The Buss x Lunacy.
Here's a close-up of #1, it's getting a baby bump! 




here's a close-up of #2, it's had more of a consistency in an even thickening of the whole length of the pod.


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## likespaphs (Apr 25, 2011)

i don't have a clue but how long have they been on there?


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## goldenrose (Apr 25, 2011)

#1 - on 4/28(Thurs.) it will be 5 months from when I pollinated.
#2 - on 5/4 it will be 5 months from when I pollinated.
It's my understanding that most paphs are 5-9-12 months til ready to harvest, so how do I tell if they're ready? I thought including a pic of the individual pod would help?


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## Rick (Apr 25, 2011)

Rose 

These are all green so you can wait till they start to brown. Purple pods are much harder to tell when they are getting close. I haven't had paph pods explode like other genera, so you can wait until you see the signs.

Since these are all crosses of different subgenera I'm not sure how long minimum time is.

Brachys and multiflorals tend to be short (3-5~6 months). Paphiopedilum group 8-12 months and barbata 12-14 months.

So I'd be clueless say about a brachy-barbata cross (I just do species) if you wanted to "green cap" (i.e. open before natural full maturation). But I don't think it would hurt just to wait until they decide to turn on their own. Unless you go on an extended vacation you wouldn't miss it.


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## goldenrose (Apr 26, 2011)

Thanks Rick, that helps! The crosses that didn't take due to the short time frame, I did cut the pod open & there was no seed so that was a no brainer!
I'll be patient & keep my fingers crossed!


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## TyroneGenade (Apr 26, 2011)

Hello,

See this thread: http://www.ukorchidforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1292

Regarding flask sterilization: try Tyndallization: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyndallization There is an old AOS article describing the process where the temperature was only raised to 80 deg C three times. And you don't need to use glass, you can use any plastic tub which seals well and can take heat. These plastic tubs also seem to offer some degree of gaseous exchange which is nice.

Get the Western media if you can: http://www.westernorchids.com.au/

Have fun!


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## tocarmar (Apr 26, 2011)

Rose,
They usually take 8-12 months.. The longer they stay on the plant the better. When they start turning brown than it is time to harvest them. I use a coffee filter to catch the seed. I use Troy Meyers for flasking..


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## Candace (Apr 26, 2011)

Natural Link Lab, talk to Sean Abbott.


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## likespaphs (Apr 26, 2011)

Rick said:


> Since these are all crosses of different subgenera I'm not sure how long minimum time is.
> 
> Brachys and multiflorals tend to be short (3-5~6 months). Paphiopedilum group 8-12 months and barbata 12-14 months.
> 
> So I'd be clueless say about a brachy-barbata cross....




wouldn't it be completely dependent on the pod parent? i guess i don't understand how the pollen parent could influence the ripening time. then again, i have no experience breeding and a *very *little understanding of plant genetics...


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## Brian Monk (Apr 26, 2011)

TyroneGenade said:


> Regarding flask sterilization: try Tyndallization: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyndallization There is an old AOS article describing the process where the temperature was only raised to 80 deg C three times. And you don't need to use glass, you can use any plastic tub which seals well and can take heat. These plastic tubs also seem to offer some degree of gaseous exchange which is nice.
> 
> Get the Western media if you can: http://www.westernorchids.com.au/
> 
> Have fun!



Have you tried Tyndalization? The reason I ask is that typical agars can only be brought to a boil twice before they lose their ability to gel. Does this work for you?


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## goldenrose (Apr 26, 2011)

At this point in time at home flasking is something I don't think I'd consider but maybe I should, basically I was looking for a flask or 2, unless others are interested.
I know quite a few use Troy but with these being a hybrid cross, if I read his info correctly, I'd have to order a minimum of 3 flasks @ $32.50 ea. +$24 + shipping + flask deposit, it's going to get a bit pricey. 
Kelsey Creek seems to have left a few small details off their website like prices for their service.
Anyone use Ruben In Orchids in FL? He seems too cheap.
It's good I'm looking into this now!


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## Darin (Apr 28, 2011)

take a look at:

http://www.rockbridgelaboratoryservices.com/

Dawn and Ken do a great job and their prices are reasonable. Only issue is they aren't accepting new pods right now as they are a bit overloaded with what they have. If you can wait a bit they might be a good option for you.


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## goldenrose (Apr 28, 2011)

Thanks Darin, it appears I have at least a couple of months!


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## Leo Schordje (Apr 28, 2011)

I second the Rockbridge Lab, I have used them off and on for years. I just saw Ken & Dawn a few weeks ago, and when it is time to pick up your seedlings, let me know, and if I'm visiting the IOS webmaster (Tom F), I'll pick them up for you. 

I just got a couple Cyp flask replates from them, Dawn did great work. 

As for their moratorium, if you only have a couple pods, Dawn is more likely to take the order. She had several commercial operations overwhelm her ability to keep up, once the back log is under control, they will take pods again. 

As to doing it yourself, having done my own flasking at home, I feel it is well worth the money they charge. It is detailed work, the best media formulas are proprietary, so you will have difficulty matching the quality of the commercial labs. The work can get tedious if you do a lot of replates. I happily pay to have my flasks done. 

Leo


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## TyroneGenade (Apr 29, 2011)

Hello,

@Brian: I haven't tried it yet but I wouldn't bring it to a boil. The protocol I have from the AOS (I must remember to get the details!) said it was only brought up to 80 deg C. At that temp the agar won't melt (though it may get a bit soft). While agar gels at 35--45 deg C, it only melts at 85 deg C and above. 70 deg C is hot enough to kill most bacteria and fungi.

I will be trying this out later in the year when my lab is being renovated and the laminar flow hoods are out of service. My major concern is whether the plastic tubs I'm now using can take the heating and cooling without deforming... Ah, its experiment time!

@Goldenrose: you may want to get more than 2 flasks. I would hesitate to make only 2 flasks given the risks of contamination. It will be easier for you to sell off an extra flask or three than recreate the cross.


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## goldenrose (Apr 29, 2011)

TyroneGenade said:


> ....Goldenrose: you may want to get more than 2 flasks. I would hesitate to make only 2 flasks given the risks of contamination. It will be easier for you to sell off an extra flask or three than recreate the cross.


Good point Tyrone, which will bring me to my next question -
How often would a competent lab experience contamination?


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## Rick (Apr 29, 2011)

likespaphs said:


> wouldn't it be completely dependent on the pod parent? i guess i don't understand how the pollen parent could influence the ripening time. then again, i have no experience breeding and a *very *little understanding of plant genetics...



I don't really know myself Likespaphs..... I just do species. But in either case I think she could just wait until the pods start turning brown on their own time.


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## TyroneGenade (Apr 30, 2011)

goldenrose said:


> Good point Tyrone, which will bring me to my next question -
> How often would a competent lab experience contamination?



I recently did 20 replates and got 0 contamination. Adding this into my running stats I at about 90% success rate. Many of my flasks have remained contamination free for more than a year. I think this is approaching professional levels.

My success with seed has been very hit or miss. On the whole contamination is very low, much less than 50%, but it varies from seed lot to seed lot. Sometimes I get 100% sterility and others times 100% contamination. I don't think this is so much my shoddy workman ship as much as the type of germ on the seed. My success with green pods is far worse than for dried seed. Of some Disa sowing I did a few weeks ago I had nearly 100% contamination using green pods (these were wild collected pods and less than perfect). The best was 1 out of 3 for a particular pod.

I would always err on the side of caution. A mistake means at least 1 years delay. Is a few extra $ worth another year?


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## luluxiu (Jun 24, 2011)

I know nothing about the short axis barbata cross, if you want to "green cap", but I do not think it would hurt just wait until they decided to open their own. Unless you go on a holiday you will not miss it.


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