# Your view point of hp pro mix on phrags



## mwong9440 (Apr 26, 2020)

I m relatively new to phrags, and been using hp pro mix on all my phrags. Some thrives in it like a weed n some not so well. 
Those grows like weeds, root ball is incredible n repotting made easy, bigger pot n fill with more mix....
What are your thoughts? 

I rescued a Jason Fischer totally dehydrated n almost no roots, after a year, two steady healthy growths in pro mix.


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## orchid527 (Apr 26, 2020)

mwong9440 said:


> I m relatively new to phrags, and been using hp pro mix on all my phrags. Some thrives in it like a weed n some not so well.
> Those grows like weeds, root ball is incredible n repotting made easy, bigger pot n fill with more mix....
> What are your thoughts?
> 
> I rescued a Jason Fischer totally dehydrated n almost no roots, after a year, two steady healthy growths in pro mix.



I have been using Promix HP for most of my phrags for more than 10 years. During this time I have received several AOS awards including a CCE. That said, some phrags just do not grow well in this medium, so I am always looking for something better. This past year I did a large scale experiment with my phrags growing in different media. I have full size plants growing in Promix vs another group growing in Orchiata Classic + Perlite. 95% of the plants did better in the bark and the reason was the extensive root development.

I also grow a lot of seedlings from flask, so I split several flasks between Promix HP, Orchiata Classic + perlite and moss. For most, the moss turned out best. For Kovachii seedlings, the results were stunning. They love sphagnum moss. For many, they grew well in both moss and Promix. The small seedlings growing in Orchiata Classic + perlite lagged behind.

So, going forward, I intend to put seedlings out of flask into Promix HP, but if they show any reluctance at all, I will move them to sphagnum. When they are large enough to move to individual pots, I will put them into Orchiata Classic + perlite. If they don't do well in this, I will move them to Promix HP. If they still struggle, I will throw them away.

I've tried other things in the past, including semi-hydro in Hydroton, but it did not work well for me in the long term.

I'll attach some photos later to document these observations.

Mike


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## Linus_Cello (Apr 26, 2020)

Mike- which phrags don’t do well in pro mix? I’m guessing the long-petalled ones?


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## orchid527 (Apr 26, 2020)

Linus_Cello said:


> Mike- which phrags don’t do well in pro mix? I’m guessing the long-petalled ones?


Yes, they generally do not like Promix, but I have several that do just fine. The reverse is more puzzling. Most of the other mature phrags seem to do best in Orchiata Classic + perlite, but unpredictably some seem to prefer Promix. I have several large kovachii hybrids that do best in 5 gallon containers with Promix. I've tried it both ways and the results were very clear. Of course this is much more complex than just the type of medium. Humidity and watering frequency are both important. My greenhouse is a little on the dry side, but I really can't say if I water more or less frequently than other growers. Mike


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## mwong9440 (Apr 26, 2020)

orchid527 said:


> Yes, they generally do not like Promix, but I have several that do just fine. The reverse is more puzzling. Most of the other mature phrags seem to do best in Orchiata Classic + perlite, but unpredictably some seem to prefer Promix. I have several large kovachii hybrids that do best in 5 gallon containers with Promix. I've tried it both ways and the results were very clear. Of course this is much more complex than just the type of medium. Humidity and watering frequency are both important. My greenhouse is a little on the dry side, but I really can't say if I water more or less frequently than other growers. Mike


I don't have mature phrags, but yes most kovachii hybrids NBS are thriving in pro mix. I had problems with super ruby, ruby slippers n qf maria. 
Pro mix is great on zygos n its alliances too


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## mwong9440 (Apr 26, 2020)

Linus_Cello said:


> Mike- which phrags don’t do well in pro mix? I’m guessing the long-petalled ones?


Surprisingly, the caudatum, leslie garay or geralda love mix I got some phrags with spikes from ecuagenera last year, 5/6 spiked bare roots phrags pot in fresh mix will bloom while newly potted. After one year my leslie garay doubled in size


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## mwong9440 (Apr 26, 2020)

mwong9440 said:


> I don't have mature phrags, but yes most kovachii hybrids NBS are thriving in pro mix. I had problems with super ruby, ruby slippers n qf maria.
> Pro mix is great on zygos n its alliances too


Thanks Mike, will get some orchiata classic where I m free to wonder out.


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## littlefrog (Apr 26, 2020)

I prefer the old fashioned 'non-orchiata' (sequoia brand if I can find it) for phrags. Too many bad experiences with orchiata, especially for seedlings. Something about it, sometimes (not every time) just burns them up. Too risky. I figure I'm not going to leave them for more than a few years in any pot, so don't see much advantage to bark that breaks down more slowly. My mix right now for phrags is bark + fleximix. I think bark + rockwool would work as well.

Many many years ago I co-wrote an article about growing in peat mix for the Orchids Magazine (might have still been the Bulletin)... Not sure how well that holds up, but it is probably online somewhere.

Have you ever considered adding 25-50% perlite to the promix-HP? That makes it 'extra HP'.


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## Silverwhisp (Apr 27, 2020)

Mike, when you say sphagnum, I presume you mean NZ or Chilean, as opposed to live moss?


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## Sky7Bear (Apr 27, 2020)

This in response to Rob (littlefrog). I'm the co-author of that article with him. I still have the manuscript of it (Growing Orchids in Mud), which I will attach.

It was published in ORCHIDS, but in their wisdom the AOS chose to put their backfiles behind a paywall (and thus irrelevant to most of the online world), and I don't even have the citation. I probably have the journal in my personal library but without a citation or index, don't know which volume it would be in. With a little effort I'm sure I can find it, but may not matter much. It would have been published around 2000 when I was living in Lansing, I expect. An interesting experiment which I have not repeated, as I'm mostly in semi-hydro at the moment. However, my success with slippers in SH has been limited. From the plants, it would seem to me that perhaps too many salts are retained for Phrags to do great, though other genera like it a lot. So the experimentation continues.

Has anyone tried Kiwi Orchid Bark rather than Orchiata? It's the same species of pine (P. radiata) but a different process. Fred Clarke at Sunset Valley believes it is superior to Orchiata, primarily because of the pH handling. Have no idea why Orchiata would cause burning. I've written a draft article on P. radiata as a medium, but never finished it for publication. Still too many unanswered questions. However, I would be interested in what Graham at Lahua has to say, as I believe he grows both Paphs and Phrags quite successfully in Orchiata. 

When it comes to growing in moss (NZ or Chilean), I find that using a terracotta pot works much better than plastic. I believe that when we come down to the basic principles of growing orchid roots (which I find to be the critical factor in successful growing), they include such things as enough air at the root (so no smothering by rotting organic material), no excess salts at the root, plenty of moisture/humidity at the root, and correct pH. 

This year is the year for me to work more on my Phrag culture, as with moves, etc., it has suffered a lot. Maybe even some "mud" or moss. But I believe success will begin at the roots.


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## KateL (Apr 27, 2020)

orchid527 said:


> I have been using Promix HP for most of my phrags for more than 10 years. During this time I have received several AOS awards including a CCE. That said, some phrags just do not grow well in this medium, so I am always looking for something better. This past year I did a large scale experiment with my phrags growing in different media. I have full size plants growing in Promix vs another group growing in Orchiata Classic + Perlite. 95% of the plants did better in the bark and the reason was the extensive root development.
> 
> I also grow a lot of seedlings from flask, so I split several flasks between Promix HP, Orchiata Classic + perlite and moss. For most, the moss turned out best. For Kovachii seedlings, the results were stunning. They love sphagnum moss. For many, they grew well in both moss and Promix. The small seedlings growing in Orchiata Classic + perlite lagged behind.
> 
> ...


Mike,
Do you have any other suggestions for kovachii culture? I lost one of the first 2 I got from Jerry Fischer (an example mistake), and the other one could best be described as hanging in there, not really optimal culture. I seem to be doing better with some flasklings I have been raising (so far), but would appreciate any other tips your might be willing to share. Kate


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## orchid527 (Apr 27, 2020)

Silverwhisp said:


> Mike, when you say sphagnum, I presume you mean NZ or Chilean, as opposed to live moss?


Yes, NZ or Chilean, but I have seen photos of excellent kovachii root development in live moss. Mike


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## orchid527 (Apr 27, 2020)

Ok, I have some photos. This group will be comparing bark and Promix HP in blooming size phrags.

The first photo is Glen Decker growing in a 5 inch pot in Promix HP. It did just fine this year with a nice flower. The second in a Fritz Schomburg from OZ growing in a 5in in pot in Orchiata Classic + perlite. It flowered nicely too. The third photo is a comparison of the roots with the Glen Decker (Promix HP) on the left. The fourth is a tray of BS/NBS seedlings growing in Orchiata Classic + perlite. The fifth is a very large Perusian Royalty growing in Promix HP. I tried both media on this plant, but it prefers Promix HP.


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## orchid527 (Apr 27, 2020)

OK, here is a second group of photos comparing kovachii and kovachii hybrids in various media. The first photo is kovachii in moss, Orchiata + perlite, and Promix HP. This experiment only ran for a few months when I moved all of the Kovachii over to moss. They looked so much better in the moss it was pointless to continue. The second photo is a close up of the kovachii in moss. The third photo is a closeup of the root system of one of the plants growing in moss. The fourth photo is a group of the larger seedlings that were moved over to Orchiata + perlite in January. I don't believe I've lost a single leaf. The fifth photo is a tray that has kovachii from three different sources on the left and 6 compots of kovachii hybrids in Promix HP on the right.


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## richgarrison (Apr 28, 2020)

Sky7Bear said:


> ....
> 
> Has anyone tried Kiwi Orchid Bark rather than Orchiata? It's the same species of pine (P. radiata) but a different process. Fred Clarke at Sunset Valley believes it is superior to Orchiata, primarily because of the pH handling. Have no idea why Orchiata would cause burning. ....



I am completely in Kiwi, as is Sam at Orchid Inn, Steve Male at fishing creek, and others that i'm too senile to remember for sure. The premise of the 'we like Kiwi better than orchiata' argument is that as the chemical treatment of orchiata leaches away, the pH or the mix goes akaline, and sours in the pot. For commercial growers that pushing product most of their product out yearly or repotting every year, it doesn't really come into the equation, since the issues start to arise at that year to year and half mark..

For me, the thing i noticed was the seedlings i grew in orchiata stayed quite soggy at about a year. I observed that this year when repotting that the ones i had potted up last year, when i ran out of fine kiwi, were downright soggy even 2 days after watering. The kiwi potted plants were still wet, but the bark itself hadn't turned to muck. My mix was the same proportions of perlite and gravel just with different bark added. 

My real concern is availability... which is why most local hobby growers i have talked to are still using orchiata. A palette of 40 bags is quite a bit more than i can store let alone use in 2 years.


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## richgarrison (Apr 28, 2020)

i would add that my experience with phrags in sphagnum is similar to Mikes. i deflask into sphagnum until the seedlings are big enough to move to a 2 inch pot. and sometimes i end up reverting those plants to sphagnum. Michael Kauffman form Mainstreet orchids grows on most of his phrags to blooming size in sphagnum.. He always gets them to flower a season earlier than i from the same flask. (and ya that's kinda annoying  )


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## southernbelle (Apr 29, 2020)

“ The premise of the 'we like Kiwi better than orchiata' argument is that as the chemical treatment of orchiata leaches away, the pH or the mix goes akaline, and sours in the pot.“
I heard Keith Davis speak at the VOS in Richmond and he talked about this. If my notes are correct, he said UNC has actually done a study on Orchiata, and the Orchiata company at first challenged, then acknowledged to him that this happens. My notes say that pH drops, though, as the dolomite coating wears off. In any event, his info was that it happens at 12-18 months, but is worse in straight Orchiata, than with perlite/charcoal mix. I usually repot by 18 months.
I also have seen seedlings stay too wet in classic Orchiata mix. For phrags, I’m going back to rockwool mix for those, especially after seeing the results Pete M got with his Fritz Schomberg seedling from the Paph Forum. Mine was similar in condition to his and has almost not survived at this point in Orchiata for 3 mos.


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## Sky7Bear (Apr 30, 2020)

And yet some growers have reported leaving plants in Orchiata for 5 to even 10 years (not Phrags) with no ill results (as compared with fir back) as P. radiata does not degrade as fast. Personally, I don't like repotting, so I'm looking for a medium that doesn't require it. That's why I'm trying various media in semihydro, but have concluded that it is necessary to do a LOT of flushing to keep from getting tip burn. Since many of the Phrags are lithophytic, I would have thought they would do well in rock mixes (hence perhaps rockwool?). I'm intrigued with trying moss in clay, as I find that for many genera of orchids moving moss from plastic to clay makes a big different (more air at the root, perhaps). As for Orchiata, would it not be possible to do a top dressing of dolomite after a couple of years? In a few weeks I'm going to review all my Phrags and let them be the focus of experimentation this year. May play around with ProMix again as well, and maybe on Phals also, which is where the idea came from originally, I believe.


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## mwong9440 (Apr 30, 2020)

Sky7Bear said:


> And yet some growers have reported leaving plants in Orchiata for 5 to even 10 years (not Phrags) with no ill results (as compared with fir back) as P. radiata does not degrade as fast. Personally, I don't like repotting, so I'm looking for a medium that doesn't require it. That's why I'm trying various media in semihydro, but have concluded that it is necessary to do a LOT of flushing to keep from getting tip burn. Since many of the Phrags are lithophytic, I would have thought they would do well in rock mixes (hence perhaps rockwool?). I'm intrigued with trying moss in clay, as I find that for many genera of orchids moving moss from plastic to clay makes a big different (more air at the root, perhaps). As for Orchiata, would it not be possible to do a top dressing of dolomite after a couple of years? In a few weeks I'm going to review all my Phrags and let them be the focus of experimentation this year. May play around with ProMix again as well, and maybe on Phals also, which is where the idea came from originally, I believe.


With phals, pro mix seems to be better with the glossy blooms, summer blooming type. Zygos, some epidis n encylia do well in mix


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## richgarrison (May 1, 2020)

Sky7Bear said:


> And yet some growers have reported leaving plants in Orchiata for 5 to even 10 years (not Phrags) with no ill results (as compared with fir back) as P. radiata does not degrade as fast. Personally, I don't like repotting, so I'm looking for a medium that doesn't require it. That's why I'm trying various media in semihydro, but have concluded that it is necessary to do a LOT of flushing to keep from getting tip burn. Since many of the Phrags are lithophytic, I would have thought they would do well in rock mixes (hence perhaps rockwool?). I'm intrigued with trying moss in clay, as I find that for many genera of orchids moving moss from plastic to clay makes a big different (more air at the root, perhaps). As for Orchiata, would it not be possible to do a top dressing of dolomite after a couple of years? In a few weeks I'm going to review all my Phrags and let them be the focus of experimentation this year. May play around with ProMix again as well, and maybe on Phals also, which is where the idea came from originally, I believe.



My phrag mix has at most 1/3 bark... the rest is equal proportions of perlite and river gravel...


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## cnycharles (May 2, 2020)

richgarrison said:


> i would add that my experience with phrags in sphagnum is similar to Mikes. i deflask into sphagnum until the seedlings are big enough to move to a 2 inch pot. and sometimes i end up reverting those plants to sphagnum. Michael Kauffman form Mainstreet orchids grows on most of his phrags to blooming size in sphagnum.. He always gets them to flower a season earlier than i from the same flask. (and ya that's kinda annoying  )



Main Street mike uses a lot of air movement, maybe more than many people might use, so moisture is used faster, hence more fertilizer is used, growing faster.


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## Michael Bonda (May 3, 2020)

Great discussion. 
Can I ask, is HD Pro Mix a soil mix with perlite?
Thanks!


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## Michael Bonda (May 3, 2020)

orchid527 said:


> I have been using Promix HP for most of my phrags for more than 10 years. During this time I have received several AOS awards including a CCE. That said, some phrags just do not grow well in this medium, so I am always looking for something better. This past year I did a large scale experiment with my phrags growing in different media. I have full size plants growing in Promix vs another group growing in Orchiata Classic + Perlite. 95% of the plants did better in the bark and the reason was the extensive root development.
> 
> I also grow a lot of seedlings from flask, so I split several flasks between Promix HP, Orchiata Classic + perlite and moss. For most, the moss turned out best. For Kovachii seedlings, the results were stunning. They love sphagnum moss. For many, they grew well in both moss and Promix. The small seedlings growing in Orchiata Classic + perlite lagged behind.
> 
> ...


Hello
May I email you directly with questions on flasking phrags?
I Will not be a pest with multiple emails. I am finding difficulty in getting the exact supplies I need?
Thank you
Michael [email protected]


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## Ray (May 3, 2020)

Michael Bonda said:


> Great discussion.
> Can I ask, is HD Pro Mix a soil mix with perlite?
> Thanks!


Promix HP is a peat-based “High Porosity” medium. In addition to perlite, dolomitic and calcification limestone are added for pH control. The “HP” is relative, and the medium is far more dense than pretty much any orchid media.

I have used it with phalaenopsis with good success, but for me, you can’t beat semi-hydroponics using LECA for slippers.


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