# Variegated or nutrient deficient?



## Ernesto (Dec 15, 2020)

I bought this Phrag. Super Rubies from Ecuagenera this past spring as a three growth plant. Since then it’s produced three new growths, which started out green, but as growth has progressed stopped producing chlorophyll. The leaves appear to be continuously growing, though. What could be the cause of this? Currently watering every 4-5 days with K-Lite at a bit under 70 ppm N, kept in a shallow tray of water that is changed out weekly. Grow lights are on 14-16 hours/day and no other new growths on my other phrags are behaving this way.


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## Ernesto (Dec 15, 2020)

Forgot to attach photos:


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## Phred (Dec 15, 2020)

Very interesting... I would first move it to a lower light spot. If it greens up it probably needs more nitrogen for the amount of light it’s receiving. I know that sounds funny but the more light you expose a plant to the more nitrogen you need. Doing this may give you an answer without changing any other parameters and may only take a couple weeks.


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## Ray (Dec 15, 2020)

Some plants - individuals, not a particular genus or species - are more demanding of magnesium than others.

Before doing anything else, I'd water it with a teaspoons of Epsom Salts per gallon.


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## Ozpaph (Dec 16, 2020)

as above with Mg - but it is odd.


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## musa (Dec 16, 2020)

Would added Mg has an effect on existing leaves or only on new growing leaves?


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## GuRu (Dec 16, 2020)

I would go with a nutrient deficit (Mg), too.



musa said:


> Would added Mg has an effect on existing leaves or only on new growing leaves?



It has effects to the whole plant, existing leaves as well as growing leaves.


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## Phred (Dec 16, 2020)

Magnesium is mobile in leaves and you would generally see the discoloration in the older leaves and in the older divisions first... not new growths. Magnesium would move from old leaves of old growths to the new first. Generally...


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## Ray (Dec 16, 2020)

That’s true, Fred, but it’s still worth trying, and can do no harm.

@Ernieg96 - we have made a lot of guesses. Can you tell us more about the growing conditions and whatever else you might be giving the plant?


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## Ernesto (Dec 16, 2020)

Ray said:


> That’s true, Fred, but it’s still worth trying, and can do. I harm.
> 
> @Ernieg96 - we have made a lot of guesses. Can you tell us more about the growing conditions and whatever else you might be giving the plant?



Sure. Temps range from high 60s F to mid to high 70s F, oscillating fan running to keep air moving. I started monthly doses of Epsom salts two months ago at 1 tsp/gallon, but plan on bumping that treatment up to twice monthly to see how it does. I also give Quantum Total monthly and KelpMax twice a month.


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## Ray (Dec 16, 2020)

And the light levels?


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## Hardwood (Dec 16, 2020)

I would gently take the plant out of the pot and see what is really going on with the roots. It looks good but perhaps there is a problem.
If there are bad roots they can not absorb the nutrients that you are applying. I use both Epsom salts (for mg) and Plaster of Paris for (Calcium and sulfur).
Are you using RO water? That removes the calcium and it needs to be added back in for the plants. In my greenhouse I had a problem with too much Potassium from the water softener. All of the locations for absorbing calcium are all ready full of potassium and the calcium can not get in. Please keep us up to date with your progress, we all can have this problem to a greater or lesser degree. Martin Motes recommends magnesium for vandas when it gets cold.
I would like to see a picture of the roots if you re-pot it.


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## Ernesto (Dec 16, 2020)

Ray said:


> And the light levels?



I don’t have a PAR meter, but I have four 20W LED lights on this shelf (two are 4500K grow lights, two are 6500K garage lights) about 8-12 inches above the foliage. I can get a FC/lumens reading on my phone tomorrow—staying overnight at work due to the snow hitting the east coast tonight


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## Ernesto (Dec 16, 2020)

Hardwood said:


> I would gently take the plant out of the pot and see what is really going on with the roots. It looks good but perhaps there is a problem.
> If there are bad roots they can not absorb the nutrients that you are applying. I use both Epsom salts (for mg) and Plaster of Paris for (Calcium and sulfur).
> Are you using RO water? That removes the calcium and it needs to be added back in for the plants. In my greenhouse I had a problem with too much Potassium from the water softener. All of the locations for absorbing calcium are all ready full of potassium and the calcium can not get in. Please keep us up to date with your progress, we all can have this problem to a greater or lesser degree. Martin Motes recommends magnesium for vandas when it gets cold.
> I would like to see a picture of the roots if you re-pot it.



I’ve never heard of plaster of Paris being used as a calcium and sulfur supplement, will take note of that. A repot is due soon anyway, so I’ll take pics when I get around to it next week. I’m using my tap water, which comes out at about 7.0-7.6 pH and 70-100 TDS depending on time of year.


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## PeteM (Dec 16, 2020)

What media is it potted in?


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## Ernesto (Dec 16, 2020)

PeteM said:


> What media is it potted in?



This plant is currently potted in about 3 parts Small Orchiata, 1 part charcoal, 1 part perlite if I recall correctly


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## littlefrog (Dec 16, 2020)

I think you could account for a multitude of sins with a micronutrient supplement. Go to your hydroponics store and ask for micros - make sure you get one with iron and boron (if they have that they seem to have everything).


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## Phred (Dec 16, 2020)

Ernieg96 said:


> Sure. Temps range from high 60s F to mid to high 70s F, oscillating fan running to keep air moving. I started monthly doses of Epsom salts two months ago at 1 tsp/gallon, but plan on bumping that treatment up to twice monthly to see how it does. I also give Quantum Total monthly and KelpMax twice a month.


Lol...give a test trial in less light first. If you're afraid to do that... tape a little piece of dark paper over 3" of a leaf and check it in a week. If it's darker than the rest you have too little nitrogen for the amount of light it'sexposedto. Two ways to fix it... less light on you feeding regime or more nitrogen with the lighting intensity you have. No guarantee but I have seen stuff similar to this but not exactly. I'll send pictures latter. Can't hurt anything this way.


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## PeteM (Dec 16, 2020)

I generally agree with Phreds assessment. The only time I have seen drastic loss of green in the leaves like this is when some of my younger phrags are exposed to too much light in combination with temps trending towards 80F in the summer and not enough of a drop in temp at night. I have seen this more in grodan growcubes than orchiata, and this seems to be more prolific for me under my LED lights that have more spectrum in the higher wavelengths (lower microns) so cast a light with as slightly violet hue. I think if it were my plant, reducing the light would be my first step as your temps seem ideal. So maybe moving it to the end of the tray or a different light altogether. Phrags are so resilient that repotting and mixing in / trying new fertilizer regiment (gently) as others recommend can't hurt and will help keep the growth rate of the foliage up. I do believe the lighting and the temps are the main source of this development. Overall it looks really cool... With the price of variegated houseplants on etsy right now.. you could be a millionaire in no time.


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## BrucherT (Dec 16, 2020)

So interesting. If it’s variegated, it appears to be a form called “ghost” among Neofinetia fanciers; such growths are known to sap the energy of the mother plant until she dies.


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## SouthPark (Dec 16, 2020)

Hardwood said:


> I would gently take the plant out of the pot and see what is really going on with the roots. It looks good but perhaps there is a problem.
> If there are bad roots they can not absorb the nutrients that you are applying.



Good call on that one. Just in case.

And also check media/root temperature. Although, the interesting thing here is that this orchid is turning pale in the new leaves - while the other (I assume) many other phrags in that growing area are doing just fine (not behaving in this way) under the assumed same conditions and growing method.


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## myxodex (Dec 16, 2020)

My money is on an S deficiency, the symptoms are classic and your fertiliser is short on S to begin with.
Epsom salts supplies both magnesium and sulphur, so you don't need plaster-of-Paris or gypsum (it comes with it's own complications).


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## Phred (Dec 16, 2020)

Ok... here’s my experience on the subject. I’ve been growing under lights for 4 years now... there is a big learning curve. I started to have issues with parts of leaves or leaves turning yellow... old, new, tip and even some in the middle of the leaf. I tried magnesium sulfate and continued to lose leaves


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## Phred (Dec 16, 2020)

I water each plant one at a time over the sink. I take the plant off the right end of the tray and as I water they all move to the right with the plant I took off first going back onto the tray at the left. This way they take turns directly under the light. As I was watering I noticed something odd. A leaf from one plant was resting on a leaf from the plant that was next to it. When I saw a darker spot where the one leaf was resting on the other I figured there was too much light.


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## Phred (Dec 16, 2020)

So figuring there was too much light... and because I can’t adjust the height of my lights I added some shade material just under the lights. I continued to have problems so several months latter I added a second narrower piece of shade cloth under the light.


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## Phred (Dec 16, 2020)

Over the next several months I stopped have trouble with leaves turning yellow. I noticed something else that at first confounded me. My Paphs, most of which are mini’s, were getting very long in leaf.
*SEPTEMBER 2017*


*SEPTEMBER 2020*


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## Phred (Dec 16, 2020)

The lesson I learned...
Plants in high light need more nitrogen... and water and air movement.
Plant leaves grow longer than normal when plants are grown in too little light.
I took all the shade material off and increased my nitrogen substantially at each watering.
To my surprise I haven’t had any yellowing and all new growth and inflorescence length are normal size now.
More light, more nitrogen and more water means the plants are putting on more new growths faster also.


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## SouthPark (Dec 16, 2020)

Phred said:


> When I saw a darker spot where the one leaf was resting on the other I figured there was too much light.



A *tan line* for orchids! Nice!

Very nice information too Phred. Thanks for posting that. Also - are those leaves actually variegated? Or is that light-induced variegation? Very very interesting.


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## Phred (Dec 16, 2020)

Citric acid also increases chlorophyll content in leaves. I make my own pH down by mixing 10 teaspoons of citric acid and I teaspoon of malic acid in a quart of distilled water. It's cheap and there are many ways you plants can benefit from some organic acids.


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## Phred (Dec 16, 2020)

SouthPark said:


> A *tan line* for orchids! Nice!
> 
> Very nice information too Phred. Thanks for posting that. Also - are those leaves actually variegated? Or is that light-induced variegation? Very very interesting.


Yes... it's a variegated Paph Paph insigne.


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## NYEric (Dec 18, 2020)

Variegated! $5,000!  Good luck.


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## Djthomp28 (Dec 19, 2020)

I had a similar but less severe issue a while back with a phrag. Jerry Fischer said acidicity was the problem. He thought my fertilizer was too acid. I found that my media had become acid also. Between change the media and being mindful of the solution pH, my phrag greened up in 6 or so weeks.


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## Ozpaph (Dec 22, 2020)

Phred said:


> Citric acid also increases chlorophyll content in leaves. I make my own pH down by mixing 10 teaspoons of citric acid and I teaspoon of malic acid in a quart of distilled water. It's cheap and there are many ways you plants can benefit from some organic acids.


what do you dilute that solution to?


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## Phred (Dec 22, 2020)

Ozpaph said:


> what do you dilute that solution to?


I use it to lower the pH of my tap water which is about 7.3
If you didn't need to lower your pH you could mist with it. You would have to dilute it to an appropriate pH for misting. 
There are a number of research papers online looking at foliar applications of citric acid.


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## PeteM (Dec 22, 2020)

Phred said:


> I use it to lower the pH of my tap water which is about 7.3
> If you didn't need to lower your pH you could mist with it. You would have to dilute it to an appropriate pH for misting.
> There are a number of research papers online looking at foliar applications of citric acid.


fascinating. Thanks for sharing this detail, I’ll be looking into this come growing season. Looks to also impact the blooms









Effect of Pre-Harvest Foliar Application of Citric Acid and Malic Acid on Chlorophyll Content and Post-Harvest Vase Life of Lilium cv. Brunello


Citric acid is a regular ingredient in many vase solution formulations but pre-harvest use of citric acid is a novel method in vase life extension of cut flowers, which is reported on tuberose earlier. In order to verify previous result, and check for possible substitution of citric acid by...




www.frontiersin.org


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## Happypaphy7 (Dec 22, 2020)

Try moving the plant to the natural light near the window area for one week and see if it greens up at all.
I have Paphiopedilum Pink Sky doing this same thing. For some reason, I have two plants from the same batch, and only one plant exhibited this chlorosis, so it was very strange. 
In about 7-10 days after being placed in the natural light, the plant started to green up. Some plants may not like artificial light, but why others are fine??


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## Berthold (Dec 22, 2020)

It's some kind of metabolic disorder. There are many different options. Nutritional deficiency is only one of them, but certainly not in this case. One possible therapy is changing the substrate. The cause of the metabolic disorder can also be an infection in the root area.


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## Ozpaph (Dec 22, 2020)

Phred said:


> I use it to lower the pH of my tap water which is about 7.3
> If you didn't need to lower your pH you could mist with it. You would have to dilute it to an appropriate pH for misting.
> There are a number of research papers online looking at foliar applications of citric acid.



I added 1/4 teaspoon 'cooking/food grade' crystallized, citric acid to 8l water it reduced the pH from 11 to 5.5. (RO water + siO2), so Im intrgued by the seemingly high dose you use.


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## Phred (Dec 22, 2020)

Ozpaph said:


> I added 1/4 teaspoon 'cooking/food grade' crystallized, citric acid to 8l water it reduced the pH from 11 to 5.5. (RO water + siO2), so Im intrgued by the seemingly high dose you use.


I didn't say how much I use... lol. The mix I spoke about is a stock solution. You can mix it however you want but I think 10 parts citric acid to 1 part malic acid is most beneficial. Once you have a stock solution you have to determine how much to use by checking the pH of what you're diluting it in as you use it. I mix 5 gallons of fertigation water at a time. I use 2 tbsp of my stock solution to lower my pH, after fertilizer is added, to 5.6 or so. I'm guessing I'm only using about 1/3 tsp of citric acid/5 gal. Depending on the silicon product you're using it can lower your pH also.


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## Ozpaph (Dec 24, 2020)

That sounds much better. thanks


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## SuperPaph (Dec 24, 2020)

But mixing Citric Acid/Malic Acid with water for making a "stock solution", and storing it for an indefinited time, is not correct. When you mix to diferent chemical substances, you will get, by reaction, a new one, and maybe you could "down" the Ph by the hidrogen contribution, but I am sure those profite of original products will be not kept.


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## Phred (Dec 27, 2020)

SuperPaph said:


> But mixing Citric Acid/Malic Acid with water for making a "stock solution", and storing it for an indefinited time, is not correct. When you mix to diferent chemical substances, you will get, by reaction, a new one, and maybe you could "down" the Ph by the hidrogen contribution, but I am sure those profite of original products will be not kept.


Hello SuperPaph
Your comment “When you mix different chemical substances, you will get, by reaction, a new one” is fortunately not the case in all situations. If it was, the elements in the fertilizers we water our orchids with, the vitamins and minerals found in the multiple vitamins we take... etc, would all have to be given separately and at separate times. 
The 10:1 CA/MA ratio I use is what is found in plants so that’s why I use that. 
Mixing CA and MA in distilled water does not create anything new. 
CA in solution can have a shelf life of up to 2 years unrefrigerated if strong enough. My solution is not that strong so I refrigerate it and use it up in a week to a week and a half.


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## Ernesto (Jan 6, 2021)

Thanks all!

Update: I’ve repotted the plant in Power orchiata and moved it to slightly lower light. I also moved to two Epsom salt waterings per month and bumped up my K-Lite to 75-100 ppm N per watering. Looks like the chlorophyll is starting to come back.


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## Hardwood (Jan 7, 2021)

I am glad your plants are improving. I have a similar problem and have given an emergency dose of norwegian saltpeter (Calcium Nitrate) along with epsom salts. 1 tbl spoon per gallon each. I also have increased the amount of fertilizer injected with my watering. I have removed my shade cloth for the winter and I think the plants are getting too much light for the amount of fertilizer that I was giving them. Thanks for all the comments and help.


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## SuperPaph (Jan 8, 2021)

Excellent!!! Really looks better!!


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## Ray (Jan 9, 2021)

Something else you may want to consider is urea.

Urea solutions are used a lot as foliar "green up" treatments. I have a friend in Montreal who specializes in paph species, and he swears his do better with a tiny bit of urea added to his feeding regimen. I tried that in my greenhouse for about a year, but saw no improvement versus plants under my regular regimen.


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## cnycharles (Jan 17, 2021)

Hmm, in Montreal he probably had a light deficiency and maybe seasonally cooler temps, but you wouldn’t have those down south in your greenhouse. You likely already had lots of light, heat and plenty of N so the urea wouldn’t show obvious changes for you
I’ve heard of people recommending adding lemon juice to their water as a pH down, and to add the acid compounds one was describing. I think lemon juice has citric and malic acid (and ascorbic?), and is reported to work well, so you wouldn’t have to buy and mix chemicals from a store, just squeeze some lemons


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## Phred (Jan 17, 2021)

I used lemon juice for about a year... using citric/malic acid powders is way cheaper.


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## cnycharles (Jan 17, 2021)

live and learn


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## Ernesto (Feb 17, 2021)

Just a few update photos—the new growths that came in white got some color back after the addition of Epsom salts, but they remain striated.


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## Ray (Feb 17, 2021)

FWIW, I have heard from a few other folks that such bleaching can come from the combination of low-dose feeding and high light, and can be compensated for by raising the first and/or lowering the second.


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## Phred (Feb 17, 2021)

Ray said:


> FWIW, I have heard from a few other folks that such bleaching can come from the combination of low-dose feeding and high light, and can be compensated for by raising the first and/or lowering the second.


Lol... exactly what I said in the first response to the original question. I can’t guarantee it but it cost you nothing. It would have been better to have done this first then look at other issues if it did no good. Throwing a bunch of things at a problem can give you the result you’re looking for but it doesn’t help you know exactly what the problem was for the next time.


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## Ray (Feb 17, 2021)

Sure enough, but exactly WHAT you throw at it makes a difference.

I'd always recommend starting with Epsom salts in this situation as it can only help and cannot hurt anything. Arbitrarily increasing the fertilizer might also work, but risks overdoing the nitrogen and quashing blooming.


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## Phred (Feb 17, 2021)

Ray said:


> Sure enough, but exactly WHAT you throw at it makes a difference.
> 
> I'd always recommend starting with Epsom salts in this situation as it can only help and cannot hurt anything. Arbitrarily increasing the fertilizer might also work, but risks overdoing the nitrogen and quashing blooming.


You are correct... that's why I suggested moving it to lower light first or covering part of a leaf.


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## Ray (Feb 17, 2021)




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## BrucherT (Feb 18, 2021)

Ernieg96 said:


> Just a few update photos—the new growths that came in white got some color back after the addition of Epsom salts, but they remain striated.


Just looks like variegation to me, of the sort valued in Neofinetia and Sedeira.


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## Ozpaph (Feb 19, 2021)

i think its 'genetic'.


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## dodidoki (Feb 20, 2021)

Iron deficiency can cause pale, yellowish new leaves, too.


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## dodidoki (Feb 20, 2021)

Otherwire I have I praestans in low bud with similar simptom.New growth is green.


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## musa (Feb 21, 2021)

Is it possible to distinguish N-, Fe- and Mg- deficiences on Paphs?


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## Ray (Feb 21, 2021)

musa said:


> Is it possible to distinguish N-, Fe- and Mg- deficiences on Paphs?


I don't think it's that simple. For one, different deficiencies can look similar. For another, a deficiency in one element can lead to a deficiency in another, making you treat the wrong thing...


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## musa (Feb 22, 2021)

Thanks Ray, it's not what I hoped to hear, but I already guessed, that it is more complicated...
In that case I would do a total reset by repotting, eventually adjusting lights by the above mentioned test in partially shading a leaf and giving a balanced fertilizer. Is that reasonable?


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