# Phrag. Cardinale



## SlipperFan (Mar 3, 2009)

Sedenii x schlimii


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## Elena (Mar 3, 2009)

Gorgeous! :smitten: I really want one of these.


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## philoserenus (Mar 3, 2009)

looks nice ^^
a Q for you, if u know... what's the morphological difference between cardinal and a sedenii, they both look so much alike its hard to tell them apart.


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## toddybear (Mar 3, 2009)

another stunning one! Nice to see someone can get phrags to bloom.


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## SlipperKing (Mar 3, 2009)

It's because these older Phrag hybrids have been toss a round so much that tags are lost, broken and /or switched. One grower pass on divisons and the like don't really know what the hybrids looks like and assumes the name is correct. One plant with many divs of it could have 2, 3 or more names for the same thing. It's a mess to straighten out. I have one plant that I got the name straight because I posted it here! Thank you all!


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## NYEric (Mar 3, 2009)

This is absolutely true, but remember some of these crosses are over 100 years old.
Very nice, I'm convinced there's something in your water. I might need to increase the fertilizer % in my trays!


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## JeanLux (Mar 3, 2009)

very very nice!!! Jean


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## Yoyo_Jo (Mar 3, 2009)

Elena said:


> Gorgeous! :smitten: I really want one of these.




Me too. Beautiful photo too Dot.


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## Leo Schordje (Mar 3, 2009)

SlipperKing said:


> It's because these older Phrag hybrids have been toss a round so much that tags are lost, broken and /or switched. One grower pass on divisons and the like don't really know what the hybrids looks like and assumes the name is correct. One plant with many divs of it could have 2, 3 or more names for the same thing. It's a mess to straighten out. I have one plant that I got the name straight because I posted it here! Thank you all!



There is a long tale, that I lack the time to tell. The upshot is, floating around the hobby there are many divisions of an old Phrag that we could call 'X', it was imported into the United States from an old English Phrag collection by a firm well known in the 1960's in California. Various divisions of clone 'X' have been submitted for awards under a dozen names and if it is well grown it always scores between 79 and 84 points. (judges recognize quality about the same) Some of the names on divisions of clone 'X' include schlimii 'Wilcox', schlimii 'Birchwood', Cardinale 'Birchwood', Cardinale 'Liisa', Sedenii 'Grace', and quite likely several others. I have divisions of both Cadinale 'Liisa' and Cardinale 'Birchwood' and the longer I grow them, the more convinced I am that they are divisions of the same clone. There are long wordy provenance stories to go with these names and why I make these assertions, but the end result is, this clone 'X', when grown well and shown will get awards, usually between 79 and 84 points. 

Dot, I would keep your plant labelled just the way it is, and recognize that it has a long history that involves knock down, drag out fights about its identity between old famous names including R. Wilcox Jones, Stewart's Orchids, Jones and Scully, Rex van Delden, Merrit Huntington, G. R. 'Dick' Clemments, W.W. Wilson and even I got "spanked" (well deserved I might add) as a young one on the lecture circuit by Merrit for voicing an opinion on the matter without good documentation. Someday I will try to put something together, but those who cared the most have long since passed away. One of the old stories that is mostly forgotten now. 

You have done a nice job growing the plant. Beautiful
Leo


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## bcostello (Mar 3, 2009)

Yoyo_Jo said:


> Me too. Beautiful photo too Dot.



me three. I love this phrag.


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## Brabantia (Mar 3, 2009)

Without discussions very, very nice.


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## SlipperFan (Mar 3, 2009)

Thanks for the history lesson, Leo. The tag, interesting enough, does not have a clonal name.


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## Leo Schordje (Mar 3, 2009)

That is interesting. No clonal name. I would not give it a name unless the AOS judges decided it was well enough grown to award it again. If you get a CCM or CCE, you should give it a name that is unique to your collection and could be identified with you. This is because CCM and CCE are awards to the grower and not the plant. If they want to give it a flower quality award, I'm not so sure what to do with that. But hey, what the heck, worst case you add another name to the stack of names. 
Leo
Leo


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## Phrag-Plus (Mar 3, 2009)

Always nice to see...


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## John M (Mar 3, 2009)

Yup; heard all that myself too. Leo, you can also add Cardinale 'Killworth' AM/AOS to that list.

*FYI:*
Sedenii (longifolium x schlimii) Always has remnants of the longifolium "horns" on each side of the pouch.

Cardinale (Sedenii x schlimii) Always has a perfect "toilet bowl" shaped lip with no sign of the "horns" at all.

*Overall;*
Sedenii (being half longifolium), is a bit more drawn out horizontally. Petals are a little more pointed. They're not as wide (proportionately) and they tend to be a little more curled/twisted than Cardinale. 

Cardinale (being 3/4 schlimii), is a rounder flower (in all respects), than Sedenii. Petals are shorter with rounder tips. They are wider (proportionately) and they tend to be nearly completely flat; sometimes with a bit of curl upwards.

However, the single most important identification point (*between* Sedenii and Cardinale), is the pouch shape. Sedenii just can't get away from that little bump on each side of the pouch rim; whereas Cardinale, having a double dose of schlimii, has virtually zero bump on the side of the pouch rim. A Cardinale pouch looks like a good place to sit.....a Sedenii pouch; not so much!


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## Ron-NY (Mar 4, 2009)

Leo, I am aware of part of the story. I have the "Wilcox' clone


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## odin (Mar 4, 2009)

Very nice one!


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## biothanasis (Mar 4, 2009)

So cute!!!


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## Gilda (Mar 4, 2009)

:clap: Bravo plant and photo !!


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## SlipperFan (Mar 4, 2009)

Leo Schordje said:


> But hey, what the heck, worst case you add another name to the stack of names.
> Leo


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## Persephone (Mar 4, 2009)

Hmmmm.....I'm starting to like Phrags.
Perhaps I _need_ one.


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## SlipperFan (Mar 4, 2009)

Persephone said:


> Hmmmm.....I'm starting to like Phrags.
> Perhaps I _need_ one.



:clap: You are about to fall over the precipice! There's no turning back now!


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## Persephone (Mar 4, 2009)

Well, I can always have the house painted *next* year.

Now I have to find one and learn how to take care if it.


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## SlipperFan (Mar 4, 2009)

Persephone said:


> Well, I can always have the house painted *next* year.
> 
> Now I have to find one and learn how to take care if it.


Look no further than this forum -- several will be for sale on the auction thread coming soon. Nice ones, too, it seems.


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## Persephone (Mar 4, 2009)

SlipperFan said:


> Look no further than this forum -- several will be for sale on the auction thread coming soon. Nice ones, too, it seems.



I'll be ready April 1st.


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## smartie2000 (Mar 4, 2009)

:clap: awesome growing I see several branches on those spikes!


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## NYEric (Mar 5, 2009)

Phrags are very easy.


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## goldenrose (Mar 5, 2009)

_ SOME_ phrags are easy!


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## Leo Schordje (Mar 6, 2009)

John M said:


> Yup; heard all that myself too. Leo, you can also add Cardinale 'Killworth' AM/AOS to that list.
> 
> *FYI:*
> Sedenii (longifolium x schlimii) Always has remnants of the longifolium "horns" on each side of the pouch.
> ...



For years the speculation was that this plant clone 'X' or Cardinale 'Birchwood' or what ever name you use, for years there was speculation about its ploidy, and what the putative parents could be. Thankfully we have a beautiful parallel example from the besseae hybrid group. Phrag Cape Sunset (Eric Young 4N x schlimii 2N) in the remake done by Schomburg and widely distributed through the Hawaiian wholesalers 2003 to 2007. The flower of the 3N Cape Sunset is quite similar in a general sort of way, also being 1/4 longifolium it lacks the horns, and is full and round. Cape Sunset tends to be a bit bigger than Cardinale, but that is likely that in Cardinale you have a double dose of schlimii, and it is a decidedly smaller flower than besseae. I think it is pretty well settled that this plant is Cardinale, most likely 3N as it is a reluctant breeder. It does breed, but does it best when the other parent is a 4N hybrid or a 2N species. Yeild is usually low, less than 100 per pod, rather than the more typical ~ 400+. THere may be exception, but I haven't heard of them yet. Thanks for confirming my recollection.


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## NYEric (Mar 6, 2009)

What a beavy of information this forum is!


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