# Hengduan Mountain Biotechnology?



## mormodes (Oct 12, 2011)

The Orchid Digest magazine reports that hengduan Mountain Biotechnology has succeeded in importing Paph hangianum, tranliemianum and helenae into the USA with complete CITES/USA paperwork. That can't be true, is it?


----------



## NYEric (Oct 12, 2011)

At WOC in Miami there were vendors with hangianum with paperwork. What exactly is your question?


----------



## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Oct 12, 2011)

Yes, a limited number of these species have begun to be imported into the U.S. It will be some time before, they are readily available.


----------



## cnycharles (Oct 12, 2011)

I see helenae at orchid shows all the time (though their legality is not known)


----------



## mormodes (Oct 12, 2011)

NYEric - from what I understand the hangianums imported at the WOC were illegal. A USFWS paperwork snafu allowed them to come in to the WOC. When they realized teh mistake they stopped sale of hangianums. The USFWS didn't persue those already sold becasue the horse had left the stable. The USFWS took the attitude that as long as the purchaser didn't sell or breed with these hangianums then the USFWS wouldn't confiscate them.

cnycharles - as far as I know helenae is legal as long as its from stock from a designated plant rescue center. 

Bob in Albany, N.Y. - thanks for answering the question.

I'm sure Roth will chime in soon about how everyone's illegal plants are now legal, *G*

BTW as opposed to what is printed in the Orchid Digest mag, Hengduan Mountain Biotechnology's website doesn't list anything for sale, its just a front page.


----------



## NYEric (Oct 13, 2011)

mormodes said:


> The USFWS took the attitude that as long as the purchaser didn't sell or breed with these hangianums then the USFWS wouldn't confiscate them.



Yes, I'm sure that's what the gentleman who purchased the lot of 27 seedlings (right out from under us) was sure he isn't going to do with them!


----------



## valenzino (Oct 13, 2011)

Hengduan Mountain Biotechnology is run by a well know taxonomist...dr Holger Perner...happy to knw he did it in go through burocracy,that at this level is complicate in china as in other places...


----------



## Justin (Oct 13, 2011)

NYEric said:


> Yes, I'm sure that's what the gentleman who purchased the lot of 27 seedlings (right out from under us) was sure he isn't going to do with them!



i saw someone say that they are all blooming out as regular emersonii.


----------



## cnycharles (Oct 13, 2011)

Justin said:


> i saw someone say that they are all blooming out as regular emersonii.



well, then the guy who grabbed them from nyeric did him a favor! maybe this is why fish and wildlife isn't pursuing them because they knew they were fake! :rollhappy: (and legal)


----------



## mormodes (Oct 13, 2011)

valenzino said:


> Hengduan Mountain Biotechnology is run by a well know taxonomist...dr Holger Perner...happy to knw he did it in go through burocracy,that at this level is complicate in china as in other places...



That's great to know. Dr Perner is speaking this January at the Paph Guild in Santa Barbara if anyone else is interested. Or maybe I should keep this to myself so I get first crack at whatever he brings to sell!


----------



## likespaphs (Oct 13, 2011)

mormodes said:


> ...Or maybe I should keep this to myself so I get first crack at whatever he brings to sell!



but don't forget about your buddies at slippertalk!
:rollhappy:


----------



## Rick (Oct 14, 2011)

mormodes said:


> The Orchid Digest magazine reports that hengduan Mountain Biotechnology has succeeded in importing Paph hangianum, tranliemianum and helenae into the USA with complete CITES/USA paperwork. That can't be true, is it?



If Hengduan Mountain Biotech is Perner's opperation, then those plants should be seed raised coming out of China (which does'nt have the CITES issues as Vietnam). 

I also heard that legal seed raised plants were being sold outside of China (other countries beside USA) by Perner so this should corroborate your info.

Didn't we just hear from Pete in Hawaii (which is US)a couple months back that he got some of Perners plants??http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21774


----------



## Rick (Oct 14, 2011)

Now supposedly there are Chinese populations of hanginanum and helenae, but I didn't know that tranlineanum had been found in China??

So technically if Perner is producing Chinese hangianum and helenae then he only needed to get his CITES stuff in line between China and USA (no problem).

But if he is using Vietnamese source stock (especially for the tranlineanum) it would be interesting how the documentation of Vietnamese sourced seed or broodstock finally got legally documented.

I guess it would also be interesting if a Chinese population of tranlineanum was located.

Paphiopedilum tranlienianum var. saxosum, a new orchid variety from YunnanXU Xiang-ming, OUYANG Xiong (Lianhua Hill Garden of Shenzhen City, Shenzhen 518026, China) 
Paphiopedilum tranlienianum Gruss et Perner var. saxosum X. M. Xu et X. Ouyang, a new orchid variety from Yunnan, is described and illustrated. It differs from typical P. tranlienianum var. tranlienianum in having broader leaves, 2.5-3.2 cm wide, much longer petals, 4.5-4.8 cm long and a broader staminode lacking auricles at base.
【Key Words】： Paphiopedilum tranlienianum var. saxosum new variety Yunnan China 

This looks to be published in 2005. So Perner would have no need of messing with the Vietnamese for providing any of the above 3 species.


----------



## Roth (Oct 15, 2011)

Rick said:


> I also heard that legal seed raised plants were being sold outside of China (other countries beside USA)



Correct sentence ' plants were being sold outside of China with suitable export documents'.



Rick said:


> Now supposedly there are Chinese populations of hanginanum and helenae, but I didn't know that tranlineanum had been found in China??
> Paphiopedilum tranlienianum var. saxosum, a new orchid variety from YunnanXU Xiang-ming, OUYANG Xiong (Lianhua Hill Garden of Shenzhen City, Shenzhen 518026, China)



Honestly, that's good for breeders and sellers that those can be legal, but none of those species ever occured in China. They have just been seen in gardens, and they all came from Vietnam. The wide leaf tranlienianum plants come from an area east of Cao Bang, in Vietnam. Tranlienianum, helenae and hangianum are quite far from China in fact, and no one has ever seen them in the wild in China. Got Chinese nurseries in Kunming and Wenshan asking me where to get cymbidium wenshanense those days, because it comes only from an area close to Lao Cai, Vietnam...


----------



## Rick (Oct 15, 2011)

Roth said:


> Honestly, that's good for breeders and sellers that those can be legal, but none of those species ever occured in China. They have just been seen in gardens, and they all came from Vietnam. The wide leaf tranlienianum plants come from an area east of Cao Bang, in Vietnam. Tranlienianum, helenae and hangianum are quite far from China in fact, and no one has ever seen them in the wild in China. Got Chinese nurseries in Kunming and Wenshan asking me where to get cymbidium wenshanense those days, because it comes only from an area close to Lao Cai, Vietnam...



Well you'll have to take it up with the authors of that paper. I just found it with 30 seconds of Google.

Seems like you tear down enough forest in Yunnan, you can probably find unicorns and elves.


----------



## quietaustralian (Oct 15, 2011)

Its my understanding that you can obtain a CITES export permit from Vietnam under certain circumstances and its my guess (only a guess) that Dr Perner has gone down this path. I'm still to be convinced that hangianum, helenae and tranlienianum are to be found naturally in China.

Regards, Mick


----------



## Rick (Oct 15, 2011)

quietaustralian said:


> Its my understanding that you can obtain a CITES export permit from Vietnam under certain circumstances and its my guess (only a guess) that Dr Perner has gone down this path. I'm still to be convinced that hangianum, helenae and tranlienianum are to be found naturally in China.
> 
> Regards, Mick



Yes I can't vouch for the authenticity of the tranlineanum discovery. I'd post a link to the paper, but except for the title the rest is in Chinese. Maybe someone out there can translate and see if it makes sense. But what would delineate an authentic find versus fraud? A photo of a GPS digital readout in the middle of a 100 plant colony?


----------



## quietaustralian (Oct 21, 2011)

Rick said:


> Yes I can't vouch for the authenticity of the tranlineanum discovery. I'd post a link to the paper, but except for the title the rest is in Chinese. Maybe someone out there can translate and see if it makes sense.



Ive tried to find the full text without luck. I'm not willing to hand my credit card details over to an unknown Chinese website, so I'll have to wait until I find a copy elsewhere.



Rick said:


> But what would delineate an authentic find versus fraud? A photo of a GPS digital readout in the middle of a 100 plant colony?



Possibly but not necessarily. I guess it would depend on the credibility/motivation of the author and how likely the information is correct ie secondary sources.

I think its possible that some of the species you mentioned can be found naturally in China but I'm not convinced.

A number of species have been described based on plants that had been found in nurseries but it the race to publish first and a lack of information about location of habitat, general habitat or false habitat information has been provided.

If you search for hangianum on the net you'll find a few pages that state that hangianum can be found in Vietnam/China but some of these are dead ends because they provide no references. Other sites provide references but those references leave me with some doubt. Examples below: 


The botanists introduced me to a local orchid grower who had mainly cymbidiums in his backyard, but also a few paphiopedilums, including P. hangianum. I suggested that these plants most likely would have their origin in nearby Vietnam, but the orchid grower emphatically confirmed that a friend from Malipo had collected these plants near Malipo in Yunnan. *Though doubts remain*,I am inclined to believe that statement.

*Perner, H. "The Moon Slipper - Paphiopedilum hangianum." 2006*

L. Averyanov wrote the following:
Distribution. Vietnam (Bac Kan, Tuyen Quang). Endemic.
Studied specimens. Bac Kan, Cho Don, HAL 4789 (HN), HLF 806 (HN, LE);
Tuyen Quang, Na Hang, HAL 126 (HN, LE), HAL 192 (HN, LE).
Notes. Local endemic with very restricted distribution. There are few doubts that description of P. singchii reported from southern Yunnan is based on plants imported from Vietnam.
*Turczaninowia 2008, 11(1) : 5–168*

In the description of Paph singchii (hangianum) Z.J. Liu et J.Y. Zhang wrote:
“singchii is described based on two flowering plants cultivated in the Shenzhen City Nurseries. *It was said the plants were collected from Southern Yunnan”*
*P. singchii Z.J. Liu et J.Y. Zhang, 2001, Acta Phytotax. Sin.38, 5: 468.*


----------



## s1214215 (Apr 19, 2012)

I have Chinese friends in Australia who may interpret.. Can anyone send me the documents?

Brett


----------

