# Masdevallia not growing well



## The Orchid Boy (Sep 28, 2012)

I have a Masdevallia Aquarius that I got from Michel's Orchids this spring at an orchid show. It doesn't seem to be doing too well but it is alive and it doesn't look bad. I have it a few inches under T8 lights and the temperature never goes above 76F and gets down to 70F or 65F. The humidity is around 50%. If I move it under my T5 lights the leaves don't last long but it blooms. It didn't look that great when I got it and maybe it has something wrong with it... It looks better now than it did. It won't bloom under the T8 lights and it is about 3-5 inches beneath them. What do you think about this orchid?

I would post pictures but I misplaced my $500 camera...


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## bcostello (Sep 28, 2012)

check this out;



http://www.grandvalleyos.org/docs/GVOS09Oct.pdf


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## goldenrose (Sep 28, 2012)

My gut says I don't think your night time temps are low enough and are you pushing too much light?


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## NYEric (Sep 28, 2012)

Thanks. It's so cool to see other OS monthly publications.


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## gotsomerice (Sep 28, 2012)

Most Masdevallias like night temperature in the low 50's. If you live in San Francisco. They grow like weeds!


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## Rick (Sep 28, 2012)

And 50% humidity is too low. Especially if you are already too warm.


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## Paph_LdyMacBeth (Sep 28, 2012)

I grow Masdies in our spare bedroom (turned orchid room ha ha) and I manage to do this quite well.
While I agree with others that ideally Masdies should have lower night temperatures, I've never had the room below 65! 
As Rick said Humidity really is key! If you can even bump it up to 65% you'll be better for it -I usually keep mine at 75% in the winter, but they do better even higher (80-85) to be honest -especially in higher light. Obviously, you will need to consider air movement with increased humidity. 

As far as light goes I don't see why the T8's won't work. Masdies require little light. Actually, mine grow and flower well sitting on the floor next to my grow rack (still T8's) at a position that barely registers 500fc. Is there a way you can play around with the height of your plants in relation to the T8's?

Also, I grow mine in sphag and styrofoam for moisture retention. I have found the quality of the moss makes a HUGE difference. I am currently happy with the moss from Lee Valley. 

Hope that helps and you can play around with your culture a little! 

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## Ozpaph (Oct 3, 2012)

Very helpful info - thank-you all.


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## The Orchid Boy (Oct 5, 2012)

I could place it almost any distance from the T8s. Right now I have it 3 inches away from the lights. My night temps are now around 67F. I could put it in a small cookie jar for a terrarium for humidity. When I got it, it didn't look to good. After a while I thought it had a disease but I guess not. I could move it to natural light where there would be 73F to 64F temps and 40% humidity. 

I really like masdevallias. Are there any intermediate or warm growing ones or ones that can handle less humidity? At The Plant House, they grow beautiful masdevallias in 70F temps and low humidity.


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## billc (Oct 6, 2012)

I think 3-4 in. is way too close. I keep mine @ 10 or so in. with T8's and they seem to do OK. I keep them in clay pots in CHC to cool the roots a bit thru evaporative cooling.

Bill


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## Leo Schordje (Oct 6, 2012)

My growing area has no air conditioning. This summer was the warmest ever for night temperature. Many of my Masdevallia became toast. However there were a few surprises. 

Species, Masd infracta came through with clean foliage, no browning, spots or die back. Outstanding heat tolerance. 

Hybrids, my hybrids with infracta & floribunda came through without any damage at all. And surprisingly of 5 clones of Masdevallia Heathii (veitchiana x coccineae) all were side by side. Four became compost, one came through with only minor damage. Go figure. I think there is something special about the one, I am going to hang onto it and see how it performs in the future. Some other veitchii hybrids came through with little damage, which is odd, but veitchiana is know to be surprising in its heat tolerance, even though it is a very high elevation species. 

So definitely look for Masdevallia hybrids with infracta, floribunda and veitchiana. And any mix of the 3 should be really good. They tolerate heat and tolerate cold. Well work tracking down.


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## The Orchid Boy (Oct 10, 2012)

What should I do with M. Aquarius? Terrarium? Give to local vendor?


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## Leo Schordje (Oct 10, 2012)

I think you should just keep the Aquarius, it is a widely available hybrid, so you don't have the 'last of its kind'. Put it in your normal windowsill, light garden conditions, in a spot with good light, and see if it recovers. It may, or it may not. If it dies, you've learned something in the process. If it recovers, you know it was the warm temperatures.


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## Paph_LdyMacBeth (Oct 10, 2012)

I'm with Leo on this one. Use this masdie as an opportunity to experiment and learn.
In my experience its low humidity and poor air movement as opposed to heat that causes loss. 
I've grown my masdies in 28+ degree weather in the summer with little drop at night -they pout, but if you keep em moist they manage.
If (and only if) your plant dies you'll be better for having tried a few things first! 

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## Marc (Oct 11, 2012)

Only thing that I've been told about them is that they like soft water a lot.


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## The Orchid Boy (Oct 11, 2012)

I've been saving my rain water for this orchid. We really need some rain!


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## Leo Schordje (Oct 13, 2012)

Marc said:


> Only thing that I've been told about them is that they like soft water a lot.



I have often received this advice too, and a contrary piece of advice. The contrary advice was, leaf tip die back is usually caused by insufficient water. Keep the orchid wetter, and you will avoid leaf die back. So in a not rigorous enough manner for science I tested both recommendations. After about 10 years of fooling around trying rain water, RO and Deionized water, and then abandoning those for a more frequent watering schedule, my conclusion is that most often the issue is not enough water rather than mineral content of the water. The Masdevallia hybrid Aquarius is common, and noted for being reliable across most of the US. So it is not a salt sensitive hybrid. 

Lack of water or lack of roots (from any of a dozen causes) is more likely the cause of the leaf tip die back. At least from my experience. 

The harder your water, the wetter you should keep your orchids.


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## Paphman910 (Oct 13, 2012)

I agree with Leo's comments. One of my friends us to grow all his Masd in a greenhouse with the minimum temperature set to 40 F. He grew them in small clay pots with moss and treefern. He used a swamp cooler during the hot days to cool the greenhouse to about 70 F during the day. His greenhouse had a fan to circulate the air all the time.


Warm tolerant species to look for are Masdevallia infracta, Masdevallia floribunda, Masdevallia tovarensis and Masdevallia veitchiana.


Paphman910


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## The Orchid Boy (Nov 1, 2012)

I put the masdevallia in a bag for a few weeks now I took it out. House temps are about 65F-69F nights and 69F-73F day with low humidity around 30%-40%. It looks fairly rough. Will it do well and recover in these conditions? My "orchid room" is about 50% humidity and goes from 70F-73F at night to around 85F during the day and my paphs grow like weeds. It looks barren with not as many leaves but most of them are green and there are new ones coming.


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## Paph_LdyMacBeth (Nov 1, 2012)

Errr, the humidity is really low. Especially for a recovering plant, though I am happy to hear about the new leaves.
I grow my masdies with a humidity of no less then 60% (like that's on the 4th day after watering with no misting) and its still not ideal. Typically, I am for 80% in my masdie area. 
Can you get a humidifier and set up a 3 walled tent?


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## The Orchid Boy (Nov 2, 2012)

Paph_LdyMacBeth said:


> ...Can you get a humidifier and set up a 3 walled tent?


No, not really. Should I put it back in the bag or get a bigger bag that doesn't touch the leaves of the plant? I'm wanting to get it to recover nice enough to give to a local vendor.


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## Ozpaph (Nov 2, 2012)

get a small terrarium or fish tank.


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## Cheyenne (Nov 2, 2012)

I grow inside in a converted bedroom. I have the sam problem with humidity. My masdivallias are taking off now. They were in plastic pots but I switched to clay. I water more and the clay pot really does keep the roots cool. I am always surprised when I pick it up how the pot feels so cool with wet moss. Even when the room is 85 degrees. The plants don't seem to mind the heat as long as the roots are coll and the moss is good.


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## mormodes (Nov 2, 2012)

The Orchid Boy said:


> No, not really. Should I put it back in the bag or get a bigger bag that doesn't touch the leaves of the plant? I'm wanting to get it to recover nice enough to give to a local vendor.



Orchid Boy, you've gotten some great advice in this thread. Why give your plant to a local vendor? Are you sick of it?

Watch the movie 'Kung Fu Panda', especially the part where he realizes that there is no secret ingredient to the Secret Ingredient Soup. *G* There is no one right way. As a matter of fact once you give up on the idea of 'right' or 'wrong' you liberate yourself to other possibilities without remorse or regret. Its the learning experience, and what you learn is more about yourself than about the orchids.


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## The Orchid Boy (Nov 2, 2012)

I don't seem to have the right conditions. Not high enough humidity, not low enough temperatures, ect. I may try other cool growing orchids that are more heat tolerant. And yes, I'm a little sick of it not blooming and losing lots of leaves and I don't really want to set up a terrarium now.


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## mormodes (Nov 2, 2012)

Well, *none* of us have the right conditions! That's what makes this interesting. We keep swinging for the fences. I grow mine like how Cheyenne and paphioboy do. Sphagnum moss in clay pots and I go a step further by standing them in a deli container top of water for moisture. And I have them in lower light. Indeed many stressed plants recover in lower light. The old timers used to put stressed plants 'under the bench'.

The wet/moist clay pot provides evaporation cooling to the roots. Leo's comment about watering - not necessarily water purity - echoes my experiences, too.

Look at this as the learning experience it is. You can't make a wrong mistake. Again think of 'Kung Fu Panda' and the whupping Po took at kung fu level zero. You have nowhere to go but up.


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## mormodes (Nov 2, 2012)

I'll also refer you to the thread about others experiences with growing Paph armeniacum. Stuff that works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another. no matter how experienced a grower they are.


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## cnycharles (Nov 2, 2012)

The Orchid Boy said:


> No, not really. Should I put it back in the bag or get a bigger bag that doesn't touch the leaves of the plant? I'm wanting to get it to recover nice enough to give to a local vendor.



though the thought of getting it nice enough to give to a local vendor is a nice thought/sentiment, unless you know that vendor really well and they have respect for your action, they will likely say 'uh, thanks' and then when you aren't there throw it away. they usually have limited space, and if they don't know if your collection/plant has bugs or diseases, or is on it's last legs, they likely won't want to take a chance of spreading anything to their collection/sales plants

so, you're stuck with it  . most of the fun of having these orchids (besides searching all over the internet etc for that one special species), is coming up with interesting ways to make that silly plant grow and flower. if you only bought things that grew perfectly and never had any problems, then what would be the fun in that?! (speaking with a smile on my face) 

life they say is the journey, not the fact that you only walked the easy road so there were never any stresses, and not getting to the end point and it's all over; live and learn. if a plant dies, write down what you tried and try again. if you don't want a plant, then donate it to someone. likely a vendor won't keep it once you're gone


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## The Orchid Boy (Nov 2, 2012)

Alright, you guys won!  I'll keep the plant and try my best to get the thing to grow. I repotted it in the spring or summer, is it alright if I repot but not break up the moss or roots and put it in a clay pot?


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## wjs2nd (Nov 3, 2012)

You don't need to repot it into the clay pot. If you put your Masd. and pot into a bigger clay pot you keep damp it helps cool and humdify everything. It's kind of like how a basement is always cool then the upstairs. The moister in the walls keeps everything cool and humid. Good luck!


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## Cheyenne (Nov 3, 2012)

The Orchid Boy said:


> Alright, you guys won!  I'll keep the plant and try my best to get the thing to grow. I repotted it in the spring or summer, is it alright if I repot but not break up the moss or roots and put it in a clay pot?



I think that it would be fine to repot it now in new moss and a clay pot. I would use one of those clay pots with the holes for some air but it probably doesn't matter that much. On another note, in my opinion your last statement may be one of the keys to your masdivallia not growing well. You said that you repotted it in spring/summer. I have found that cooler growing orchids struggle through the warmer parts of the year but thrive though the cooler parts. I learned a while ago to only repot them when it starts to get cooler in the fall or even around Christmas. Then they don't skip a beat and grow and recover well in the cooler weather. When they are repotted in warmer weather they are stressed. Sometimes I put mine on a windowsill and crack the window just enough to keep them cool and in the winter the window is always a cooler area, summer take them off the window.


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## mormodes (Nov 4, 2012)

I have done what both wjs2nd and Cheyenne recommend. Sometimes I just slip it into a clay pot and sometimes I repot. In my case it depends on how lazy I am or how the medium looks. 

Now go back and re-read the second response in this thread, the link to the article in the newsletter written by the lady who got the CCM on hers. She gives you some good info on how to grow this. Especially in terms of temps. I don't think you are too far off. Or maybe I should say t=you are way closer than I am in N Calif. 

My only other comment would be to re-read what Leo says about water and - you're going to kill me - try not to handle the pot too much once you decide on how you are going to proceed. Plants won't re-root if they are unsteady in the pot - which is why we stake them or otherwise stabilize them in the pot. This goes for picking them up and looking to see if they are growing. Just quit f8cking with it. Keep it evenly moist, a bit shadier, in a cooler pot and look but don't touch. Don't feed either. Just evenly moist. If you don't know what that is make a second pot with the exact same potting material in it and unpot *that* one if you wonder what's going on inside the pot. Won't take long before you learn how fast that type of pot dries out in your conditions.


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## mormodes (Nov 4, 2012)

also you've had the plant for what? two months? It will accomodate to you. It'll drop its leaves or otherwise sulk becasue it was moved from its first home, but eventually it'll come around. And Cheyenne maybe right about repotting in the summer. See? I learned something. (Note to self: just because these don't have a pseudobulb doesn't mean you can repot them any old time.)


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## The Orchid Boy (Nov 4, 2012)

I've had the plant since March. Thanks for all the help guys!


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## The Orchid Boy (Nov 8, 2012)

I repotted the Masdevallia into a clay pot but didn't disturb the root ball much. I put it in a nice north window.

I did a search on Andy's Orchids to get ideas for warm growing masdevallias: http://www.andysorchids.com/SearchResults.asp
Edit: Ok, the link doesn't really work but if you go to the website and select Masdevallia and warm growing you'll see the results.

Can any masdevallia be constantly grown at warm temps (65F-85F) and low humidity (40%-60%) and do well? I kind of assume not... The "warm growing" masdevallias are just tolerant of warm temps... But there are some on Andy's orchids that say "tolerant of extremes,favoring warm"... Thanks!


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## keithrs (Nov 10, 2012)

Have you tried floribunda, tuerckheimii, or sprucei?


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## The Orchid Boy (Nov 11, 2012)

I love the sprucei! I was searching about all these and sprucei is said to be one of the true warm growing masdevallia species and will do well in warm conditions if provided with "high humidity and excellent air movement". I have nice air movement but not that high of humidity. What are your experiences with low humidity and masdevallias?


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## keithrs (Nov 11, 2012)

The Orchid Boy said:


> I love the sprucei! I was searching about all these and sprucei is said to be one of the true warm growing masdevallia species and will do well in warm conditions if provided with "high humidity and excellent air movement". I have nice air movement but not that high of humidity. What are your experiences with low humidity and masdevallias?



I grow them outside here in so cal. My floribunda and tuerckheimii are going into spike as we speak. As for the cooler growing ones...I can grow them but they don't flower very often because I have keep them in too much shade.


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## Paph_LdyMacBeth (Nov 11, 2012)

I don't see why you can't give them a try! I started growing masdies when everyone told me my conditions weren't right and I have been very successful. Its more about a balance between the right humidity, temps, and air movement as opposed to the perfect conditions. 
Just try it  we're here for ya!

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## The Orchid Boy (Nov 11, 2012)

Ok, I'll try a sprucei or a floribunda. My M. Aquarius might bloom soon for the first time in many months!


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## Paul Mc (Nov 11, 2012)

Orchid Boy... I too have struggled with Masdie's now for about 1 1/2 years. I think every Masdie that sees me now must shriek in horror and want to hide as I've killed all but one now, lol... But this one is the longest lasting one I've had this far! Personally, I see the key to these as doing your research (which it appears you have and are doing) and enjoy the learning process. I promise that one day I will get it or find the right one for my conditions, and you will as well!!! Just enjoy the journey and keep asking questions. I'm learning so much from this thread, lol...


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## Paul Mc (Nov 11, 2012)

On a side note, as others have suggested, you might try getting creative with your growing culture as well. I know a person who fills a terrarium with ice every morning to grow these, ad another that uses a cave, lol... Not saying these will work, but you can learn from how others do things and modify to fit your space/needs/time. Currently, I'm experimenting with vase culture and using ice cubes in the base to cool the inside/root zone if the vase.


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## cnycharles (Nov 11, 2012)

zeer pots are the way to go; they are mentioned here and also in other threads. placing a normal pot inside another one, with sand or moss in between, moistened so that the plant media isn't moistened at the same time, and wicking out through the external clay pot cools the roots. you can get away with having a 'cool' plant in 'warm' temperatures if you can keep the roots and base of plant cool. people grow cypripediums in pots in europe and other places by using the zeer pot method

if the top of the outer clay pot is higher than the plant pot, you can use the wicking/cooling from the clay to humidify and cool the air around the cool-desiring plants' leaves


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## Paul Mc (Nov 11, 2012)

Oooohhhhh, another method to try!!!! Thank you!!!

So, from my brief research, the putter pot can be glazed. Is that correct? I'd think that would trap heat, but I may be wrong.


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## cnycharles (Nov 11, 2012)

the inside pot can be glazed or plastic; better to not wick moisture since moisture can wick 'in', which could be bad. the outside pot must transfer moisture out, so can't have a finish on it which would seal in moisture

the inside pot could have a glaze, heat would transfer from high to low depending on the material the pot is made of, and maybe slightly affected by the glaze that might be on the outside of the pot, but i'm guessing wouldn't affect it that much imo


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## Paul Mc (Nov 11, 2012)

I am sooooo going to try this!!! Now to buy some more "test subjects"!!! I'm sure they will be screaming in horror as I order!!! LOL!!!


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