# Kelpak again



## Stone (Jun 16, 2013)

I just purchased 5lt of kelpak.
No doubt they have been answered elswere but A few questions.
How long is this material stable for?
Should it be stored in the fridge?
What is the best dilution for paphs/orchids? ml per Litre?
And any other information you would care to add:drool:
(eg) Will it make me feel warmer if I drink it......Its $#[email protected]*&ing FREEZING!!!


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## ALToronto (Jun 16, 2013)

I keep it in the fridge and shake the bottle a bit every time I use it. Apparently it has preservatives to give it a one year shelf life at room temperature, but why risk it?

I have a 1 L bottle with a 7.5 ml cap, so 1 capful goes into 2 L of water, once every two weeks.


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## consettbay2003 (Jun 17, 2013)

Personally I think 7.5ml in 2 litres might be a tad too strong. That's approximately 1 TBS/ gal. The manufacturer recommends no more frequently than once every two to three weeks so I stretch it to once a month to be safe and use 1 tsp. (5ml.)/gal. I make sure to foliar feed with it at the same time. 

I store mine in the fridge and believe the shelf life is much more than one year. 

I recall Rick uses 1/4 tsp. (1.25ml.)/gal. once a week when he fertilizes.


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## NYEric (Jun 17, 2013)

What is Kelpak?!  What is "freezing" in your part of the world?


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## Trithor (Jun 17, 2013)

Anything below normal body temperature is considered cold, anything below 20 Celsius is of course 'freezing' even though water freezes at 0 Celsius, no self respecting colonial considers him or herself to be water!


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## NYEric (Jun 17, 2013)

Funny, when here people start wearing short sleeves or sleeveless when it gets above 50F.


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## Trithor (Jun 17, 2013)

You people dare to go sleeveless?!


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## NYEric (Jun 17, 2013)

Yes, there are very few poisonous animals in NYC. Even West Nile disease is down!!


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## Ray (Jun 17, 2013)

It does not have to be refrigerated. Cool and dark is sufficient 

"At least 2 years" is the quoted shelf life. 

I use the stuff at 256:1 about monthly. 


Ray Barkalow (via Tapatalk)


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## Stone (Jun 18, 2013)

Ray said:


> It does not have to be refrigerated. Cool and dark is sufficient
> 
> "At least 2 years" is the quoted shelf life.
> 
> ...



Thanks ray but wouldn't 257:1 be better


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## Stone (Jun 18, 2013)

NYEric said:


> > What is "freezing" in your part of the world?
> 
> 
> 
> Anything under 14C (57.2F) and it was 10 yesterday.... TEN I TELL YA!


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## Bjorn (Jun 18, 2013)

Poor guy! Here it was down to 4.4 last night and this is SUMMER!:rollhappy:


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## naoki (Jun 18, 2013)

consettbay2003 said:


> Personally I think 7.5ml in 2 litres might be a tad too strong. That's approximately 1 TBS/ gal. The manufacturer recommends no more frequently than once every two to three weeks so I stretch it to once a month to be safe and use 1 tsp. (5ml.)/gal. I make sure to foliar feed with it at the same time.
> 
> I store mine in the fridge and believe the shelf life is much more than one year.
> 
> I recall Rick uses 1/4 tsp. (1.25ml.)/gal. once a week when he fertilizes.



I'm just curious, why do you want to foliar feed KelpMax? Both auxin and cytokinin "generally" have different effects on shoot vs root tissue systems. For example, auxin promotes cell elongation in shoot, but suppress elongation in root during the gravitropism. Or auxin promotes formation of lateral roots, but prevent shoot branching (apical dominance). With regard to the branching, the effects of cytokinin is the opposite of auxin. I'm not sure how this applies to sympodium monocots, but I have always thought that I need to apply KelpMax to the roots.


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## Secundino (Jun 18, 2013)

:rollhappy::rollhappy: Just 14ºC last night at the place where all swedish tourist come to see the sun and the beach, rain during the night and just one cloud outside - no sun at all. The paphs are defenitly growing slow this 'summer'!
And yes, I've no Kelpak over here but the algae-fertilizers I always apply at the substrate/roots.


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## Ray (Jun 18, 2013)

Stone said:


> Thanks ray but wouldn't 257:1 be better



256 is just convenient -a tablespoon per gallon.

To Naoki's question about foliar versus root application - my own experience is dousing the daylights out of the entire plant, so I cannot say if it is absorbed through the leaves in the first place. I also don't know if such hormone treatments are a "whole body" thing, or if they only affect the point of application.

I can say that the application of the auxins (Kelpak/KelpMax is roughly 350:1 auxin to cytokinin), the first reaction is that of significant root tip growth, and as they do, they natually emit cytokinis that lead to cell elongation and growth.

I have focused on the chemical as a root growth stimulant, but I suppose, with proper study, it could be a flower size/conformation factor, as well. The US importer owns a winery, and he uses the stuff on the grape vines immediately after fruit-set. It causes the elongation of the rachis, allowing fruit development without interference from adjacent grapes, and creates more room for penetration of fungicides. He, therefore, gets much better yields of better fruit.


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## eggshells (Jun 18, 2013)

Bjorn said:


> Poor guy! Here it was down to 4.4 last night and this is SUMMER!:rollhappy:



Yeah these guys are spoiled! We get -45c here in the middle of winter. Yes that is not a typo. We go to our freezer to warm up.


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## NYEric (Jun 18, 2013)

If you didn't live in SK you could at least go snowboarding!


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## eggshells (Jun 18, 2013)

NYEric said:


> If you didn't live in SK you could at least go snowboarding!



I still do  we have a small hill here but we usually go to the rockies to do that.


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## NYEric (Jun 18, 2013)

eggshells said:


> I still do  we have a small hill here but we usually go to the rockies to do that.



I keep thinking SK = long flat stretches of wheat! oke:


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## eggshells (Jun 18, 2013)

NYEric said:


> I keep thinking SK = long flat stretches of wheat! oke:



North Saskatchewan is beautiful. Not like the prairies at all. 

I keep my seaweed in the fridge.


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## naoki (Jun 18, 2013)

Ray said:


> 256 is just convenient -a tablespoon per gallon.
> I also don't know if such hormone treatments are a "whole body" thing, or if they only affect the point of application.
> 
> I can say that the application of the auxins (Kelpak/KelpMax is roughly 350:1 auxin to cytokinin), the first reaction is that of significant root tip growth, and as they do, they natually emit cytokinis that lead to cell elongation and growth.
> ...



Auxin is used for a long distance signaling (from shoot to root), so if it CAN go through the cuticle/stomata, then it could get into the phloem stream. But similar to you, I don't know if leaf absorption is possible or not. Auxin does help cell elongation, but I think we are using it to formation of adventitious and lateral roots, aren't we? It promotes differentiation of pericycle cells to from lateral root founder cells. I think this is what you mentioned at one point in some forum or email (and the textbook confirms it). My textbook doesn't mention about the higher growth rate of root tips, though.

Interesting story about winery, I didn't know they use Kelp for grapes. Also, I didn't know the other advantage (penetration of fungicides). For eating grapes (Thompson Seedless), Gibberelin is used and has the same effect as auxin (larger, looser fruits). Both of them cause parthenocarpy, too. But kelp can be considered "organic", I guess.


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## Ray (Jun 18, 2013)

Actually, gibberellins are found in most seaweeds, too, but they are SO unstable, that they are effectively defunct almost immediately (or so my reading stated).


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## Trithor (Jun 19, 2013)

eggshells said:


> North Saskatchewan is beautiful. Not like the prairies at all.
> 
> I keep my seaweed in the fridge.



Is that to stop it freezing?:rollhappy:


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## cnycharles (Jun 19, 2013)

I think the better working of fungicides is purely a space issue (more air/space around each grape, so better spray penetration into the cluster and prevention of rot also because of more air)?


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## Ray (Jun 19, 2013)

Absolutely Charles. That was my point - we tend to use these supplements to enhance root growth, while the grape grower uses it for better fruit spacing on the rachis for fuller berries and easier penetration of fungicides (specifically Oleotrol-M and sulfur).

In the US, a lot of almond growers also use it, and as we learned from the Phillies, turf too.


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## consettbay2003 (Jun 19, 2013)

www.kelpak.com 

It's used as a foliar spray for a large number of crops.


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## cnycharles (Jun 19, 2013)

Ray said:


> Absolutely Charles. That was my point - we tend to use these supplements to enhance root growth, while the grape grower uses it for better fruit spacing on the rachis for fuller berries and easier penetration of fungicides (specifically Oleotrol-M and sulfur).
> 
> In the US, a lot of almond growers also use it, and as we learned from the Phillies, turf too.



I should have included a quote from Naoki's last post; she was mentioning not knowing about the benefit of fungicide penetration and I was assuming she meant chemical penetration into the tissue so I was explaining the point you had stated (though looking now I see she probably understood)


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## Ray (Jun 19, 2013)

consettbay2003 said:


> www.kelpak.com
> 
> It's used as a foliar spray for a large number of crops.



True, but none of them are orchids.

Foliar absorption apparently occurs primarily through regions associated with stomata known as "plasmodesmata". Stomata occur in large numbers and are distributed widely in terrestrial plants, but occur in much smaller numbers, primarily on the undersides of the leaves, and often protected by lipid coatings in orchids, greatly limiting the foliar uptake.

Is there some uptake? Probably. Is it significant? I don't know, but I suppose we'll learn someday.


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## Stone (Jun 19, 2013)

eggshells said:


> > Yeah these guys are spoiled! We get -45c here in the middle of winter.
> 
> 
> Yeah but its a dry cold


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## Ray (Jun 20, 2013)

I visited my grandparents outside of North Battleford, Sask one Christmas Holiday when I was a kid. It was apparently a VERY mild winter - only -25°.

I stuck to summers-only after that.


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## NYEric (Jun 20, 2013)

consettbay2003 said:


> It's used as a foliar spray for a large number of crops.


Thanks. 


Stone said:


> eggshells said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah but its a dry cold
> ...


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## Trithor (Jun 20, 2013)

Ray said:


> I visited my grandparents outside of North Battleford, Sask one Christmas Holiday when I was a kid. It was apparently a VERY mild winter - only -25°.
> 
> I stuck to summers-only after that.



Do people realy live in places like that? Sounds like it should be reserved for a high-risk prison only.


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## Stone (Jun 20, 2013)

I just got my Kelpak today. I was very surprised to see it is green and watery. The Seasol I've been using is thick and black!. According to the website they recommend 1:100 dilution for flower seedlings (which are pretty tender) So I would presume a similar rate for orchids should be ok? So thats 10ml/Lt.
The Seasol recommendation for seedling, indoors etc is more like 1:260 but its probably more concentrated? 
ALtoronto is using the same rate as Ray about 1:260 aprox. I think any less than that would be too weak. So I might start with 1:150 or something like that every 2 weeks.


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## ALToronto (Jun 20, 2013)

Trithor said:


> Do people realy live in places like that? Sounds like it should be reserved for a high-risk prison only.



There is no such thing as bad weather. There is only inadequate clothing.


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## ALToronto (Jun 20, 2013)

Stone said:


> I just got my Kelpak today. I was very surprised to see it is green and watery. The Seasol I've been using is thick and black!. According to the website they recommend 1:100 dilution for flower seedlings (which are pretty tender) So I would presume a similar rate for orchids should be ok? So thats 10ml/Lt.
> The Seasol recommendation for seedling, indoors etc is more like 1:260 but its probably more concentrated?
> ALtoronto is using the same rate as Ray about 1:260 aprox. I think any less than that would be too weak. So I might start with 1:150 or something like that every 2 weeks.



I was using double my current rate (1:125 or so) at first, until Ray told me it was likely a waste of product. Still, the high dosage really helped the plants get established after repotting. I don't know if lower dosage would have had the exact same effect. It certainly doesn't hurt to overdose.


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## naoki (Jun 20, 2013)

Well, it probably depends on the magnitude of overdosing. Plants are pretty sensitive to hormones, so tiny amount can have a large effect. That's a part of the reason why it is not easy to discover them. Also, it is known that if you put to much auxin in plant tissue culture, it slows the growth, so the response curve is bell shaped.


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## consettbay2003 (Jun 21, 2013)

The manufacturer recommends 1:100 dilution for the initial dosing but 1:400 for subsequent treatments on ornamental plants and flowers.


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## Ozpaph (Jun 21, 2013)

ALToronto said:


> There is no such thing as bad weather. There is only inadequate clothing.



Spoken by someone who's never lived in the sub-tropics oke::rollhappy:


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## cnycharles (Jun 21, 2013)

Trithor said:


> Do people realy live in places like that? Sounds like it should be reserved for a high-risk prison only.



I think that's what everyone said about Australia at first ! ;p 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ray (Jun 21, 2013)

Stone said:


> I just got my Kelpak today. I was very surprised to see it is green and watery. The Seasol I've been using is thick and black!. According to the website they recommend 1:100 dilution for flower seedlings (which are pretty tender) So I would presume a similar rate for orchids should be ok? So thats 10ml/Lt.
> The Seasol recommendation for seedling, indoors etc is more like 1:260 but its probably more concentrated?
> ALtoronto is using the same rate as Ray about 1:260 aprox. I think any less than that would be too weak. So I might start with 1:150 or something like that every 2 weeks.



Kelpak is simply kelp juice with a very small amount of preservative. Many other brands have been condensed (in some cases fully dried), which give them a more solid appearance, but also degrades the hormones.

The manufacturers of Kelpak recommend about 1:400 ratio to start, potentially using more as needed. Two teaspoons per gallon = 1:384, a tablespoon per gallon (which is what I use) is 1:256.

They also state that anything less than about 1:500 is a waste of time, resulting in no reaction, but I have had customers tell me otherwise.

I think that - as important as concentration - is frequency of use. The application of hormones "turns on" processes within the plant, and those, in turn, "turn on" other ones. the time span for the plant to return to its "base level" - the pre-treatment state - is in the area of 2-3 weeks, so that shoud be the maximum frequency of use. I go with 4-6 weeks.


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## consettbay2003 (Jun 21, 2013)

The manufacturer also recommends keeping the diluted solution below ph7


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## Trithor (Jun 21, 2013)

cnycharles said:


> I think that's what everyone said about Australia at first ! ;p
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Shows you how wrong people can be


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## Ozpaph (Jun 21, 2013)

cnycharles said:


> I think that's what everyone said about Australia at first ! ;p
> k



Touchee!! (they still do):rollhappy::rollhappy:


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## keithrs (Jun 21, 2013)

The kelp I use rec. 2tsp per gal every watering. I use it every 3-4 waterings.


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## Stone (Jun 22, 2013)

Here is another interesting one. This one is fermented and aparently also retains all the natural integrity of the kelp as well. Its made from a different species to Kelpak. 
http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/downlo...Liquid Fertilisers/Sea-Change Liquid Kelp.pdf


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## Ray (Jun 22, 2013)

Here is an interesting video. It looks like Kelpak + a boron compound (megathrive?) might be good for breeders.

Kelpak Video - 8 minutes


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## Ozpaph (Jun 22, 2013)

Stone said:


> Here is another interesting one. This one is fermented and aparently also retains all the natural integrity of the kelp as well. Its made from a different species to Kelpak.
> http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/downlo...Liquid Fertilisers/Sea-Change Liquid Kelp.pdf



I use their products and are happy with them but have no objective evidence of additional benefit.


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## Stone (Jun 23, 2013)

Ray said:


> Here is an interesting video. It looks like Kelpak + a boron compound (megathrive?) might be good for breeders.
> 
> Kelpak Video - 8 minutes



Thanks Ray. That was very seductive. It made me want to have a warm Kelpak bath. I hope it's 4 times better than what I was using cause its 4 times more expensive!:rollhappy:


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## goldenrose (Jun 25, 2013)

Ray said:


> .....The manufacturers of Kelpak recommend about 1:400 ratio to start, potentially using more as needed. Two teaspoons per gallon = 1:384, a tablespoon per gallon (which is what I use) is 1:256. ...


 math isn't my strongest subject but, any one else confused by this? A tablespoon is more than 2 teaspoons, should it be 1T = 1:384, 2t.= 1:256?


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## Trithor (Jun 25, 2013)

It should work out, as there is only one instance in all of math where two numbers are equal, and that is 256 and 384. I believe it is a product of the NASA Space program and Quantum mechanics? :rollhappy:


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## naoki (Jun 25, 2013)

goldenrose said:


> math isn't my strongest subject but, any one else confused by this? A tablespoon is more than 2 teaspoons, should it be 1T = 1:384, 2t.= 1:256?



Rose, Ray's calculation is correct.


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## ALToronto (Jun 25, 2013)

A tablespoon is 3 teaspoons. A teaspoon is a little less than 5 ml, so a tablespoon is just under 15 ml (half of a fluid ounce).

1 tbsp/gal = 15/3750 (approximately) = 1:250 (or its binary equivalent, 256)
2 tsp/gal = 10/3750 = 1:375 (or the binary equivalent, 384)

One gallon is 64 ounces or 128 tablespoons, that's why the ratios have multiples of powers of 2 in the denominator (384=3*128 = 3*2^7 )

Is this any clearer? Personally, I hate imperial measurements and much prefer metric.


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## Trithor (Jun 26, 2013)

Thank you, now I understand they are not equal to each other, but each their own fraction.


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## Ray (Jun 26, 2013)

ALToronto said:


> A tablespoon is 3 teaspoons. A teaspoon is a little less than 5 ml, so a tablespoon is just under 15 ml (half of a fluid ounce).
> 
> 1 tbsp/gal = 15/3750 (approximately) = 1:250 (or its binary equivalent, 256)
> 2 tsp/gal = 10/3750 = 1:375 (or the binary equivalent, 384)
> ...



Nope. A gallon is 128 ounces, or 256 tablespoons, or 784 teaspoons.

I prefer metric, too.


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## Ozpaph (Jun 26, 2013)

Metric rules!!


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## keithrs (Jun 26, 2013)




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## SlipperFan (Jun 26, 2013)

Yes, my head is also about to explode..... :rollhappy:


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## ALToronto (Jun 27, 2013)

Ray said:


> Nope. A gallon is 128 ounces, or 256 tablespoons, or 784 teaspoons.
> 
> I prefer metric, too.



Yes, absolutely right. But my calculations are correct in spite of my failing memory.


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