# Using Green Moss as a topdressing



## orchidman77 (Sep 27, 2015)

Hi folks!

I have seen several people post full-plant pictures of their slippers in pots that are top-dressed in some green moss. What do you guys think about this as a general practice? My inclination would be that it can be a good thing for keeping the top of the mix moist (since mosses stay pretty wet) and it, of course, looks nicer than bits of bright white perlite. Especially for phrags, I think the low fertilizer requirements and constant moisture could be helpful in having moss grow on the surface of the mix.

But does this do any good for the plant? Is it just something people do to improve the whole look of their plants? I am considering purchasing some green moss spores to start, but wanted to know what other people do and/or think about this practice.

David


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## Erythrone (Sep 27, 2015)

Think it is good for Phrags or maybe it could be a sign the media is good for Phrag growing.... Don't know for other genus since I don't see a lot of green moss with orchids growing in drier media.


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## mrhappyrotter (Sep 27, 2015)

Is it possible that the moss you're seeing is actually living moss that's growing on the substrate? This is common to see on plants that have been grown in high humidity and with lots of moisture, such as in a greenhouse.

I think live moss is probably beneficial, particularly to mounted plants and terrestrial growers. They are at least a sign of good growing conditions for many slippers, since they need clean water, decent light, and good humidity ... things that many slippers also need. I personally also like the appearance of a fresh carpet of moss. It's difficult for me to achieve/maintain good moss growth on most of my plants, but I do try, simply because I like the way it looks.

I've never tried the spores, but I've had good success with culturing moss from plants I've purchased that already had decent moss growth. I just break it into clumps and squish it down into other pots to get it started. You might also be able to collect some moss from from the wild. Look for stuff that's growing on rock/brick/cement/sidewalks, as it seems to adapt best to growing in orchid pots with chunkier media. I also end up with other plants, like ferns and liverworts. I leave the liverworts, but pluck the ferns.

You might also look into making some kind of moss / spore slurry to help spread the moss around. The recipes I've seen call for beer and/or buttermilk, so you may need to figure out a way to adapt that for indoor growing where you wouldn't necessarily want the odors indoors.

Also, as far as benefits go, nothing scientific but it's possible that the moss produces some nutrients that could be beneficial. It's also likely that the moss acts as a slow release fertilizer as it grows and breaks down. It's a good micro-biome for bacteria and fungi, which might in turn provide their own benefits to slippers and other plants.


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## Kostas (Sep 28, 2015)

I would say that the moss you see growing on the substrate is simply a welcome ''weed'' that simply thrives in the conditions most Phragmipedium want. Few take special care of it, it just thrives along with the Phragmipedium. Even when growing the Phragmipedium indoors, the moss still grows and thrives. Here is my kovachii's substrate








I added a some wild moss strands upon repotting of the plant about 3 weeks ago and it is thriving and growing with watering only every 3 days and the bottom of the substrate sitting in water. And that is in indoor conditions, not a greenhouse. I think that within a few months, it will fill the surface of the substrate as its spreading fast and then it should start thickening.
I also get moss in my trays of bromeliad seedlings which i have to spray twice daily to keep the seedlings happy. I never inoculated their bark/peat substrate, the moss grew on its own there. If the conditions are right for it, its an easy and welcome ''weed'' for me


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## NYEric (Sep 28, 2015)

Live moss is the best thing you can have for Paphs and Phrags in my opinion. it works to keep moisture in, plus roots grow well in it. BTW, it takes moisture and lots of light!


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## John M (Sep 28, 2015)

This is the Phrag. Photograph forum. For continued discussion (and for future reference), this thread should be moved to the "Slipper Orchid Culture" forum.


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## orchidman77 (Sep 29, 2015)

John M said:


> This is the Phrag. Photograph forum. For continued discussion (and for future reference), this thread should be moved to the "Slipper Orchid Culture" forum.



So sorry, I didn't realize that. Is there a way I can move this thread? I didn't see one...

David


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## John M (Sep 29, 2015)

orchidman77 said:


> So sorry, I didn't realize that. Is there a way I can move this thread? I didn't see one...
> 
> David



Maybe when Heather gets a minute, she'll do it. Or, I think Dot also can move threads.


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## SlipperFan (Sep 30, 2015)

Done. Good idea!


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## Stone (Oct 1, 2015)

Every plant I've ever bought with moss growing in the pot had rotten roots. (but that's just me)
I don't like it and I get rid of it when I see it.


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## Rick (Oct 4, 2015)

I've noticed that if the moss is thriving the orchids are thriving.

So I tend to use the moss growth as an indicator of good conditions. I agree with Mrhappyrotter generally. There is a potential for beneficial interactions.

In the wild, a lot of N fixing takes place in the blue-green algaes associated with mosses or lichens, and orchids are frequently associated with mosses and lichens.

As I cut down on my N application rate I'm getting more luxuriant moss growth in my collection. Even on mounted plants that I didn't even seed with moss. 

Maybe they are making up for the low N rates I'm feeding Maybe not.

But I'm pretty happy with my results.


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## Happypaphy7 (Oct 7, 2015)

I use sheet moss as top dressing. They are dead and dyed green, although after a few watering, the color comes off and the moss turns ugly brown.

I use it for two purposes; to keep the potting from flowing all over and to keep the top of the mix to dry out too much.

Regarding using live moss as top dress, I don't think it has any direct benefits.

From what I understand, N fixing is done through certain microorganism like cyanobacteria and other bacteria, and certain plants (mostly legume family) can also fix nitrogen with the help of bacteria living in their roots. Lichen works in the similar way, which is a composite of fungus and cyanobacteria, and in this case, the N fixed by cyanobacteria benefits the fungus, not other plants. It's part of the benefit of their relationship.

So, I don't think moss and/or lichen contribute to orchids or other plants as a source of nitrogen unless they are dead and decomposed.

Their presence certainly indicates good environment.
Moss likes it bright (not sunny all the time) and moist, and lichen likes clean air. 

Anyways, some moss will surely die on the pot, so they might serve as a source of some amount of nitrogen eventually. I don't know how significant that might actually be on the small pot, though.


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## Happypaphy7 (Oct 7, 2015)

Stone said:


> Every plant I've ever bought with moss growing in the pot had rotten roots. (but that's just me)
> I don't like it and I get rid of it when I see it.



You said you love to water. Maybe not.
Moss covered pot may not dry out as fast and thus, your loving watering might rot out the roots I think? 

Yeah, whatever works for you is the best.


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## Stone (Oct 7, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> You said you love to water. Maybe not.
> Moss covered pot may not dry out as fast and thus, your loving watering might rot out the roots I think?
> 
> Yeah, whatever works for you is the best.



I always repot orchids that I buy as soon as I get them home. None of my plants have moss growing on the top of the mix. Almost all the plants I have purchased with a thick layer of moss growing over the medium have had very poor or rotted roots.
Yes I do love to water and if there is moss on the surface they would not dry out for weeks. - Not my idea of good culture. If any plant stays wet for more than say 4 or 5 days in summer, me no likey! Of course it's completely different with baskets where the bottom is open. But for plastic pots it's just a bad thing in my g/house. Occasionally when it's really hot and dry in summer I might put a thin layer of sphag on the top to slow down the drying. The best thing for holding the mix in place is fern fibre if you can get it.
Also I agree that you can completely disregard any nutrient imput from the moss itself. However it does hold a lot of supplied nutrients. I'm tring some barbata types in a treefern/sphag moss mix...just for fun..


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## Happypaphy7 (Oct 7, 2015)

What is fern fiber?
Treefern root stuff that is very uncommon now? or?

The best maudiae hybrid I once had grew in quite badly decomposed mix of coconut husk chips, perlite, charcoal and clay balls. 
I never repotted for about four years or so. Then, one day, the leaves started to look funny. lol

I have never tried treefern roots, but have read that they hold good for good ten years or so.
Now I can only find them offered in the form of totem mount or very small pieces. I would like medium sized pieces but hard to find. 

I bet barbarta paphs will love it.


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## Bjorn (Oct 8, 2015)

Moss is an organism that cannot tolerate anything but very low levels of salts in the water. So, if your culture is based on very low fertiliser levels using water that is sufficiently pure, and you water sufficiently, then moss will appear. The limit? may be 50-100ppm - just my suggestion. Well, except for that IMHO moss CAN become a nuisance, particularly for tiny plants. In my environment, its not uncommon for me to "weed" moss. I do not do it unless its actually doing some harm though. Ferns are a much bigger issue.
Substrate disintegration; well I do not believe that is a big problem. The roots can do well growing in disintegrated substrate, provided it has not turned "sour". This souring or whatever we should term it, in my perception is caused by accumulation of fertilizer residue that gets adsorbed to the colloids. The amount of such adsorbates will after some time reach a level that gets poisonous for the roots and then they start to die. And the phenomenon I call "souring " starts. After a while repotting is required.
In nature repotting is not a common practice, neither is the supply of nutirents higher than a one-digit ppm level. Of course since house-plants are pot-bound they need all their nutrients to be provided in the fertiliser (since the roots cannot sprawl around for them and the fertiliser needs to contain relevant amounts of the relevant ingredients. Xavier indicated that Boron was important. In my opinion he may be into something, I am currently using a fertiliser mix that I made containing more boron than common. But it could be something else, like lack of humates etc


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## Stone (Oct 8, 2015)

Bjorn said:


> > Substrate disintegration; well I do not believe that is a big problem. The roots can do well growing in disintegrated substrate, provided it has not turned "sour". This souring or whatever we should term it, in my perception is caused by accumulation of fertilizer residue that gets adsorbed to the colloids. The amount of such adsorbates will after some time reach a level that gets poisonous for the roots and then they start to die. And the phenomenon I call "souring " starts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Stone (Oct 8, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> > What is fern fiber?
> > Treefern root stuff that is very uncommon now? or?
> 
> 
> ...


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## Bjorn (Oct 8, 2015)

Mike, you are of course right, and there is something we do not understand here. Just saying that it is caused by accumulation of something or lack of something may not give the entire picture either. I guess it wil rarely be negative to use inorganic components in the compost, I use it all the time, if it is lime-stone, then the acidification will be counteracted, but will the longivety of the mix increase? I do not know. And then there is the water....which can contain things that accumulates and eventually cause necrosis and turn the rootball into mush......possibly.....I use that mix of Lance Birk, which contains bark, sheet-moss and sand , then the mix seems to last remarkably longer than else. Could it be the sand?


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## Paul (Oct 9, 2015)

I have topped many of my Paphs and Phrags with living moss (picked up on humid old stone walls) and most of the plants (if not all of them) really love that. But, it needs special requirement to me, so not for all growing pratices in my opinion. I water quite often and add little fertilizer, also I flush with pure neutral water to keep the pH not too low (over 6). this moss is very tolerant to salts, I water at 300 to 400µS/cm and it remains green


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## NYEric (Oct 9, 2015)

Moss sadiste!!


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## paphioboy (Oct 9, 2015)

Not all moss are created equal...(??)


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## Rick (Oct 10, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> From what I understand, N fixing is done through certain microorganism like cyanobacteria and other bacteria, and certain plants (mostly legume family) can also fix nitrogen with the help of bacteria living in their roots. Lichen works in the similar way, which is a composite of fungus and cyanobacteria, and in this case, the N fixed by cyanobacteria benefits the fungus, not other plants. It's part of the benefit of their relationship.



Cyanobacteria = Bluegreen algaes, which grow in association with mosses.

There are papers out there that show net + (as well as net 0) of fixed N coming from living epiphytic bryophyte and lichen colonies in both temperate and tropical forests. 

So there is documentation of other plants deriving N indirectly from association with bryophytes even when alive.


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## Happypaphy7 (Oct 10, 2015)

Cyanobacteria is not the same thing as blue green algae although they are sometimes used as such. 
It is highly misleading. 
They add totally different organism.

Plus, I think Cyanobacteria mainly occur in a body of water. 

I think you are referring to algae. Also, bryophytes are also different things than algae.
I think bryophytes contain moss in their group if I recall correctly. 
So you are mixing three different life forms creating confusions here.


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## Rick (Oct 10, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Cyanobacteria is not the same thing as blue green algae although they are sometimes used as such.
> It is highly misleading.
> They add totally different organism.
> 
> ...



http://www.jstor.org/stable/2399396?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Thirty second google search. This one has "bluegreen algaes (Cyanobacteria)" growing directly on leaves on tropical plants and supplying 10-25% of fixed N needs. 

Other papers were linked to similar threads on moss/lichen association in the past.


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## Rick (Oct 10, 2015)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3683619/

This paper also talks about link between cyanobacteria -moss associations as driver of N fixing in Boreal forest, but can't tell how much N is from direct leaching or decomp of dead moss.


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## Happypaphy7 (Oct 10, 2015)

Ok, I just read that first page appearing on that website. 
Interesting!
I wonder if the nitrogen just leaks out and plant leaves just absorb through the leaf surface then?? 

By the way, again, I find it confusing/misleading to define Cyanobacteria as the same thing as blue green algae. Especially when the paper goes on to use algae later on to displace the Cyanobacteria in the text.


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## Happypaphy7 (Oct 10, 2015)

Rick said:


> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3683619/
> 
> This paper also talks about link between cyanobacteria -moss associations as driver of N fixing in Boreal forest, but can't tell how much N is from direct leaching or decomp of dead moss.



What???? 192 pages! 
I'm outside waking around. 


Thanks, I'll look into it later. 

I'm well aware of lichen ( composite of Cyanobacteria and fungus), so other association between Cyanobacteria and other living things are definitely possible. 
I just wasn't aware of them.


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## Rick (Oct 10, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Ok, I just read that first page appearing on that website.
> Interesting!
> I wonder if the nitrogen just leaks out and plant leaves just absorb through the leaf surface then??
> 
> By the way, again, I find it confusing/misleading to define Cyanobacteria as the same thing as blue green algae. Especially when the paper goes on to use algae later on to displace the Cyanobacteria in the text.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanobacteria

Not trying to mislead, and I realize not everyone trusts Wikipedia for accuracy, but "BG algae" has been the common name for Cyanobacteria for a long time.


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## gonewild (Oct 10, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> I wonder if the nitrogen just leaks out and plant leaves just absorb through the leaf surface then??



The organisms are also present on and in orchid roots. So any nutrients that the living organisms excrete can move very quickly into the plant.
The nutrients excreted by organisms that colonize on leaf surfaces are likely absorbed directly through the leaf but also the nutrients can "flow" from leaf surface to root by moisture that forms as dew at night. In a rainstorm these nutrients would mostly wash past the roots of the host plant too fast but they could benefit another plant down stream in the stem flow.


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## Rick (Oct 10, 2015)

Those insitu pics that CXCANH just posted on tranlineanum I thought were very telling with regard to N availability to cliff dwelling slippers.

Nothing but a thin layer of dripping damp moss on trickling wet limestone rock.


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## Happypaphy7 (Oct 10, 2015)

Rick said:


> Those insitu pics that CXCANH just posted on tranlineanum I thought were very telling with regard to N availability to cliff dwelling slippers.
> 
> Nothing but a thin layer of dripping damp moss on trickling wet limestone rock.



No, there are lots more than just miss actually. 
Dead plants ( and most likely other dead stuff and poops haha) on and around all over the area. 
Plus, everytime there's a flow of water, there might be nutrients in it for the plans to take up and use.


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## Rick (Oct 10, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> No, there are lots more than just miss actually.
> Dead plants ( and most likely other dead stuff and poops haha) on and around all over the area.
> Plus, everytime there's a flow of water, there might be nutrients in it for the plans to take up and use.



We've covered this in other threads and plenty of research out there.

Any fixed N in the flowing water must come from the aforementioned cyanobacteria in your earlier thread. Either directly as in the paper I linked or from decomposing plant material. The amount of "poop" or decomposing bodies from higher life forms has been demonstrated to be insignificant. 

The NPK of the flow through water has been measured/ quantified and published in journal articles.

Problem is that high rainfall in tropical areas really dilutes the fixed N coming out of accumulated dead fall (which is pretty sparse in vertical habitats relative to the forest floor), so you end up with more spot uptake from N fixation process proximal to the plant rather than concentrated distant sources.


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## Happypaphy7 (Oct 10, 2015)

I know. I think I've read it somewhere here on ST. 
The thing is I also remember that there were many different views and it's not totally conclusive or accurate. 

I suspect that the flow-through water has lots of stuff in it as well for obvious reasons, but perhaps in the very first few drops might have higher concentration of available nutrients.


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## Rick (Oct 10, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> I suspect that the flow-through water has lots of stuff in it as well for obvious reasons, but perhaps in the very first few drops might have higher concentration of available nutrients.



Well there was a paper I linked here a few years ago that got the 1st flush #s out of epiphytic bird nest ferns in Borneo. And including the ant poop it was pretty dang sparse.

I've seen a lot of conjecture and opinion without substantiated study and math.

You are welcome to add your own studies showing the opposite. 

Orchids are the masters of the impoverished habitat.


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## Happypaphy7 (Oct 10, 2015)

I don't have my own studies, and I won't go into the habitat to take samples.


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