# Standard Complex x Simultaneous Multis - Any Successes?



## silence882 (Mar 7, 2009)

Hey all,

I was wondering if there have been any decent crosses between standard complex paphs and simultaneous multiflorals. I know the crosses have been made and bloomed, but I'm not sure if I've ever seen a picture of one.

Does anyone happen to know?

--Stephen


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## paphreek (Mar 7, 2009)

Check Dr. Tanaka's website. I seem to recall a picture of Paph (Orchilla x sanderianum)
I just found it http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/Novel/ennovelty1.html


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## Roy (Mar 8, 2009)

The odd one or two have shown promise but the record suggests that this line of breeding is a waste of time and money, to me anyway. The odds of getting anything decent is too great. Then of course, many growers like most flowers, depends on your taste.


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## goldenrose (Mar 8, 2009)

paphreek said:


> Check Dr. Tanaka's website. I seem to recall a picture of Paph (Orchilla x sanderianum)
> I just found it http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/Novel/ennovelty1.html


Thanks for the link Ross! There are some that came out better than I expected! The color on the Orchilla x sand is nice but ....... 
as Roy would say 'dice it'!


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## Hera (Mar 8, 2009)

I love the villosum x niveum.


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## paphioland (Mar 8, 2009)

Some Heaven's Gate were nice. Generally they are duds and they can be hard to bloom


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## silence882 (Mar 8, 2009)

Thanks for the info! It's nice to know at least a couple have been made and turned out alright.

--Stephen


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## Drorchid (Mar 9, 2009)

Actually the first day I worked here at Orchids Limited I made a Complex by multifloral cross. I crossed Paph. Via Victoria (a complex green) with Paph. haynaldianum album. Now that I know more about Paph breeding I probably would never make that kind of cross, but it actually turned out a lot nicer than I thought.

I named it Paph. Double Victory (as each flower spike always had 2 flowers):












Robert


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## NYEric (Mar 9, 2009)

I like the crazy crosses!  BTW isn't a complex crossed to a multi = a complex!?


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## Drorchid (Mar 9, 2009)

NYEric said:


> I like the crazy crosses!  BTW isn't a complex crossed to a multi = a complex!?



Yes, in theory you are correct, but when I talk about a "complex" (just say the word "complex") I always refer to a "Bulldog" type cross (Like Paph. Winston Churchill). In all other cases when it is a "complex" cross (Not a primary, or has more than 3 species in it's background) I refer to them as complex Brachy, complex multifloral or complex Parvi etc. The picture I posted above I would refer to as a complex novelty type cross. 

Robert


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## charlie c (Mar 9, 2009)

Robert,

Have you tried to breed Paph. Double Victory? 

Just wondering if there's also a fertility problem with standard complex X simultaneous multi crosses?

charlie c


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## silence882 (Mar 9, 2009)

When this type of cross is made, are there a lot of deformed blooms?


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## SlipperFan (Mar 9, 2009)

One can certainly see haynaldianum, album, in Robert's cross!


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## Drorchid (Mar 10, 2009)

charlie c said:


> Robert,
> 
> Have you tried to breed Paph. Double Victory?
> 
> ...



No, I have not tried breeding with it yet. I am guessing that it is probably sterile, but who knows? If it is fertile, maybe this plant can lead to multifloral bulldog types. I have noticed that now these plants are more mature they get up to 3 flowers per stem. Can you imagine 3 Winston Churchill type flowers on a stem? We do have a rothschildianum x Complex Cross, that I have tried to breed with, but that one was sterile. I will see if I can find a picture of it.



silence882 said:


> When this type of cross is made, are there a lot of deformed blooms?



Actually all plants were pretty uniform and consistent, and more or less looked like the picture posted. So, no there were no deformed flowers.

Robert


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## Drorchid (Mar 10, 2009)

I found it; It is Paph. Ron Hawley (rothschildianum x Telesis):






Robert


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## charlie c (Mar 10, 2009)

Robert,

Thanks for sharing your experiences with this type of breeding. 

Do you think using one of the supposedly 4N multi cultivars ( like a stonei whose name I can't recall at the moment) mated to a 4N Bulldog would increase your chances of producing fertile offspring? Or do you think this is just a compatibility problem?

In an event, good luck. And, yes indeed, when you succeed in getting 3 Winston Churchill type flowers on a stem I'll be beating a path to your door. 

charlie c


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## NYEric (Mar 10, 2009)

When I look at the photo I can only think, "I hope they don't lose the tags!"!!


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## Drorchid (Mar 10, 2009)

charlie c said:


> Robert,
> 
> Thanks for sharing your experiences with this type of breeding.
> 
> ...



Yes, I think if you would use a 4N multifloral, and cross it to a known 4N Complex Bulldog type, that yes that will increase your odds of producing fertile offspring.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Mar 10, 2009)

I think Klehm's made some complex x haynaldianum crosses...and named one of them Toll Booth...I think it was Winston Churchill x haynaldianum....


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## goldenrose (Mar 11, 2009)

Ron Hawley is bad, it would be better if there were multiple flowers. The single flower is OK but Telsis is an awfully nice red & IMO nothing was improved upon. As Eric said - don't lose that tag!


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## Drorchid (Mar 11, 2009)

goldenrose said:


> Ron Hawley is bad, it would be better if there were multiple flowers. The single flower is OK but Telsis is an awfully nice red & IMO nothing was improved upon. As Eric said - don't lose that tag!



Actually when you see it in person it looks a lot nicer. It does usually get 2 flowers per spike, and the flowers are enormous. But I agree, I don't think you made an improvement over either parent.

Robert


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## Kevin (Mar 11, 2009)

Drorchid said:


> Actually the first day I worked here at Orchids Limited I made a Complex by multifloral cross. I crossed Paph. Via Victoria (a complex green) with Paph. haynaldianum album. Now that I know more about Paph breeding I probably would never make that kind of cross, but it actually turned out a lot nicer than I thought.
> 
> I named it Paph. Double Victory (as each flower spike always had 2 flowers):
> 
> Robert



Just curious: why? It looks good to me, and with two to three flowers on a spike, why would you not try this again?


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## Drorchid (Mar 12, 2009)

Kevin said:


> Just curious: why? It looks good to me, and with two to three flowers on a spike, why would you not try this again?



In this case it tuned out good, but I have learned with Paph breeding, that you usually get better results if you stay within a group. Say brachy x brachy, multifloral x multifloral, or Complex Bulldog x Complex Bulldog. Of course there are exceptions, like you get nice things when you do a multifloral x parvi or a multifloral x brachy cross. 

Usually when you do very wide crosses, like putting a multifloral on a complex bulldog, or a brachy onto a Maudiae type most of your progeny will be duds and you don't really improve on either parent. Also you often run into sterility problems. So you can get one generation, but you won't be able to make additional crosses with the progeny, so for a breeder that is usually not much of interest.

Robert


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## slippertalker (Mar 12, 2009)

I agree with Robert, in general the best results come from staying with closely related species or hybrids. Of course there are exceptions and some of them are quite nice but often genetic deadends.


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## paphreek (Mar 12, 2009)

slippertalker said:


> I agree with Robert, in general the best results come from staying with closely related species or hybrids. Of course there are exceptions and some of them are quite nice but often genetic deadends.



While generally true, this is not always the case. Two notable exceptions are Skip Bartlett (godefroyae x FC Puddle) and White Legacy (Greyi x Silver Anniversary). Both of these crosses have produced excellent breeders that have advanced the quality of white and pink complex Paphs. Also, In-Charm Orchids has begun breeding with some success with In-Charm White (White Knight x godefroyae). 

In my limited experience, it appears that in Brachy's, godefroyae and niveum are more successful at producing decent offspring when crossed with complex hybrids than bellatulum is.


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## Drorchid (Mar 12, 2009)

paphreek said:


> While generally true, this is not always the case. Two notable exceptions are Skip Bartlett (godefroyae x FC Puddle) and White Legacy (Greyi x Silver Anniversary). Both of these crosses have produced excellent breeders that have advanced the quality of white and pink complex Paphs. Also, In-Charm Orchids has begun breeding with some success with In-Charm White (White Knight x godefroyae).
> 
> In my limited experience, it appears that in Brachy's, godefroyae and niveum are more successful at producing decent offspring when crossed with complex hybrids than bellatulum is.



That is true that brachys x complex can make nice things, but if you take Skip Bartlett, when that cross was made (godefroyae x FC Puddle), only one plant out of the whole cross namely 'White Pepper' turned to be an excellent plant and a good breeder. The rest were sterile. That proves my point that usually you end up with duds and dead ends, and only a few out of those kind of crosses will turn out good. Now if you cross two fertile complex Bulldogs (say Paph Winston Churchill x Paph. Paeony) you know that most of your offspring will look good, and be fertile.

I think a better way to go, if you want to cross a brachy x complex Bulldog, is to take a tetraploid brachy and cross that onto a complex Bulldog.

By the way, I did make a 2n bellatulum x complex cross (Lunacy) and again one plant out of that cross, turned out to be fertile, and I have been able to cross it onto other complex plants. That particular plant probably turned out to be a tetraploid.

Here is a picture of it (Paph. Lunar Bell 'Wedding Bell' = Lunacy x bellatulum album):






Robert


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## JeanLux (Mar 12, 2009)

this is one Lunar Bell beauty Robert!!!! Still have some of those?? Jean


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## Drorchid (Mar 12, 2009)

Yes we do, but the clone posted is not for sale yet (eventually when it is big enough we can sell divisions). The amazing thing about this clone, is that the flowers last for 4 to 5 months!

Robert


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## Roy (Mar 13, 2009)

Drorchid said:


> In this case it tuned out good, but I have learned with Paph breeding, that you usually get better results if you stay within a group. Say brachy x brachy, multifloral x multifloral, or Complex Bulldog x Complex Bulldog. Of course there are exceptions, like you get nice things when you do a multifloral x parvi or a multifloral x brachy cross.
> 
> Usually when you do very wide crosses, like putting a multifloral on a complex bulldog, or a brachy onto a Maudiae type most of your progeny will be duds and you don't really improve on either parent. Also you often run into sterility problems. So you can get one generation, but you won't be able to make additional crosses with the progeny, so for a breeder that is usually not much of interest.
> 
> Robert



Thank you Robert, you have just confirmed what I have said in a number of posts and had some interesting reply posts in many a forum regarding Paph breeding. As you suggest there are exceptions & there most certainly always will be but the percentages of success is definitely against the grower.


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## Roy (Mar 13, 2009)

Robert, interesting point you make about P. Skip Bartlett and complex. Skip Bartlett has a Brachy in the background anyway from the F C Puddle side = Actaeus x Astarte with Astarte being = insigne x Psyche, so there are Brachy genes in there somewhere that may account for the extra Brachy shape coming out and explain the point you made on sterility in future generations. ( Actaeus = insigne x Leeanum )


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## Brian Monk (Mar 25, 2009)

I would echo several comments made here. 

1) Staying within the groups definitely improves the chances of the production and fertility of the seed of that cross.

2) Brachys onto complexes can create some fairly fertile hybrids, but in my opinion it is because most complexes have Brachy in their background. 

3) Making novelty crosses can be an exercise in futility, with most hybrids producing nothing, and most of the flowers that grow from those being average at best, and serious monstrosities at worst. There will always be exceptions to the rule.

I would add that breeding with the Pardalopetalum group ( haynaldianum especially) produces more fertile crosses when crossed with sections Paphiopedilum and the complexes.

Few of the type of Paphs that interest you have been produced, but some have been dramatic and highly awarded, but relatively few individuals have received awards. Paph	Heaven's Gate	'Mem. Louise Weltz' received an FCC in 1993, and the award photo shows a beautiful flower. It is Paphiopedilum Grace Day x Paphiopedilum rothschildianum.

I enjoy novelty crosses, they can be dramatic and well presented. But they are frustrating to make, sometimes difficult to grow and/or flower, and frequently one is rewarded with a flower that deserves to be tossed on the compost heap. On the other hand, complex Paphs were also difficult to create, and took over 100 years to reach their current stage of beauty. I would think that continually trying with these novelties is the only way to reach new heights in hybridizing.


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