# Paph thaianum?



## s1214215 (Dec 26, 2010)

Hi again. 

Well, another of the paphs from a batch of 20 I got listed as Paph thaianum has bloomed. Here it is. It looks right, the size is right (about 10cm tall and blooms about 2cm wide). This one is of very good form. 

The only thing is I dont recall seeing thaianum with a spotted back to the petals and sepals. The front looks right thought. 

Any thoughts?

Brett


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## s1214215 (Dec 26, 2010)

This plant came in the same lot and labelled as thaianum hahah.. well we can see that it is not. 

Brett


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## NYEric (Dec 26, 2010)

Yes, the top bloom is definitely thaianum, you can now put it in an envelope and send to me!


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## s1214215 (Dec 26, 2010)

Hi Eric

If you did not have such difficult laws on the import of Paphs in the USA, I would send. I have just exported my collection to Australia and this plant I left out as I thought it was not thainum as the leaves are smooth and the bud was spotty on the outside. I did not think thaianum had spotty buds. 

So now I have to think what to do with this pretty plant, and curses the blooms a nice form.

Brett


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## Kavanaru (Dec 26, 2010)

it (first plant!) indeed looks very much like thainum... Does it has a spotted inner side of the pouch? All thaianum I know have spots in the inside of the pouch... On the other side, I do not recall any thaianum with such a long and straight spike! Not that I have seen that many thaianum, but at last they were pretty consistent on this... well, my two cents


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## Shiva (Dec 26, 2010)

A very beautiful paph and this one is just as beautiful from the back as from the front. Thanks for the pics.


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## s1214215 (Dec 26, 2010)

I sent this to a Thai friend and he says it is thaianum. 

I have seen thaianum with spikes this long before, but this is the longest I have seen. 

However, I have never seen spotting like this on the back of the bloom. YEs, there is some faint spotting inside the bloom.

My only thought is that it maybe that it has some nivieum somewhere in its parentage. Thaianum has been in cultivation for a long time in Thailand, but as several of my Thai friends will tell you, they thought it just a stunted, but cute form of niveum. 

Thus it has been bred with and flasked in the past (as niveum). So it may be that it is largely thaianum blood, but with a splash of nivieum in there somewhere. I speculate here. 

Whatever the case, its a pretty thing. I wish I had sent to back to Oz with my other plants. Now I have to find it and 4 other siblings a home before I leave here. I think it wont be a hard task hahah..

I have thought to self this plant as the shape is good, but how long will the pods take to mature?

Brett


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## Rick (Dec 26, 2010)

Cute little bugger.

I hope it makes it into US trade in my lifetime.


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## s1214215 (Dec 26, 2010)

There are flasks of it here for sale. Or is it impossible to send flasks of it too? Can I send seed? I am sure I can get a pod going and get some sent over.

Brett


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## NYEric (Dec 26, 2010)

Yes you can send flask, let me know how much. 
Actually, if the package is small enough you can say it is a sari and send it! :wink:


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## SlipperFan (Dec 26, 2010)

It's awfully cute. I, too, wondered if there was some niveum in it, but I've never seen a niveum with such a tall spike, either.


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## SlipperKing (Dec 26, 2010)

super bloom, looks clear enough to call it thaianun for me, Nice


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Dec 26, 2010)

I see no reason for why thaianum should not be legal in the US. There are no problems getting other paphs from Thailand, which propagates plants and is a signatory of CITES. thaianum has been around long enough for the Thai's to be able to export propagated plants.


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## s1214215 (Dec 26, 2010)

Hi Eric

I was told that the problem is that the USA has some additional laws to CITES and that you have to have a special permission to import species paph plants. A friend from the USA said this had been a problem with species like hangianum into the USA in the past.

I have emailed a friend of mine about thaianum flask by the way. Anyone interested can PM me.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Dec 26, 2010)

Basically, in the US, if the exporting country is able and willing to document that the parent plants were legally collected (within its boundaries) and propagated, then its OK...provided there is documentation. It was not long after its discovery before Peru was legally exporting flasks of kovachii. Thailand is a major orchid exporter, and doesn't seem to have any problem providing documentation for all the other orchids it exports.


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## s1214215 (Dec 26, 2010)

Hi Eric

THanks. 

check the thaianum on this site http://www.thaipaphioclub.com/web/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9&Itemid=10&lang=en

I tend to be skeptical sometimes of some "species"plants here as crossing to an A-line plant of a similar species and then back crossing a number of times to get better shape in the bloom, but looking like the original species, is a bad practice here. Vanda coerulea is a good example of this. Some plants and blooms are so far removed from the original species, it is hard to believe they are that species.

Wel anyway, I will post more pics as my plants bloom matures a little, this is just the second day.

And yes there is spotting inside the pouch.

Brett


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## cliokchi (Dec 27, 2010)

hi guys,

Paph. thaianum is legally available for export as plants and as flasks
to any country in the world that is cosignatory to CITES
cliokchi





Eric Muehlbauer said:


> Basically, in the US, if the exporting country is able a nd willing to document that the parent plants were legally collected (within its boundaries) and propagated, then its OK...provided there is documentation. It was not long after its discovery before Peru was legally exporting flasks of kovachii. Thailand is a major orchid exporter, and doesn't seem to have any problem providing documentation for all the other orchids it exports.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Dec 27, 2010)

Great! Now...where are the US companies importing thaianum?


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## s1214215 (Dec 28, 2010)

My thaianum on the 3rd day


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## JeanLux (Dec 28, 2010)

That's really a great mini Brett, bravo!!!! Jean


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## Erythrone (Dec 28, 2010)

Cute species!!


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## SlipperKing (Dec 29, 2010)

Very much like thaianum now that it has had time to mature more!


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## NYEric (Dec 29, 2010)

They're very cute and probably would bring their small size to hybrids if vigorous strains can be made. I would like to have a bunch but so far have not had much luck keeping them alive.


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## s1214215 (Dec 29, 2010)

I pollinated this plant today. While at the weekend markets here in Bangkok I saw a Paph micranthum in bloom.. Sadly it was more than a bit deformed, or I would have bought it to put pollen too.

Yes, I agree, great potential to make micro paphs here.

Brett


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## fibre (Dec 29, 2010)

It is really a very nice P. thaianum!


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## biothanasis (Dec 29, 2010)

Extremely cute.!


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## Bolero (Dec 30, 2010)

Gorgeous!


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## s1214215 (Dec 31, 2010)

Bolero said:


> Gorgeous!



Hi Bolero

I will be bringing about 4 flasks (100 seedlings) of these back with me to Australia, so you will see some around soon enough. I finally got some Mexipedium xerophyticum in flask also (wild form).

Brett


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## s1214215 (Dec 31, 2010)

Eric, what are you growing them in? They seem to need a very ricky mix. Mine is bits of broken brick, coarse pebbles, a little organics, but not a lot.


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## NYEric (Dec 31, 2010)

Mine were in bark mix. If/when I get more I'll try diff mixes to compare results.Thanx for the advice.


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## sanchemtu (Jan 20, 2011)

Hi Breet and anyone!
I'am a paph collector and hybridizer from Thailand. Well, I have some detail for you. Paph thaianum must have a pink spot in the pouch and the last of your picture is a dwarf of paph godefroyae!!! It is mix up with paph thaianum growing in the nature.
San


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## s1214215 (Jan 20, 2011)

sanchemtu said:


> Hi Breet and anyone!
> I'am a paph collector and hybridizer from Thailand. Well, I have some detail for you. Paph thaianum must have a pink spot in the pouch and the last of your picture is a dwarf of paph godefroyae!!! It is mix up with paph thaianum growing in the nature.
> San



Hi San

I kind of guessed this might be so. Do you do any flasking of Paphs? 

Brett


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## SlipperFan (Jan 20, 2011)

sanchemtu said:


> Hi Breet and anyone!
> I'am a paph collector and hybridizer from Thailand. Well, I have some detail for you. Paph thaianum must have a pink spot in the pouch and the last of your picture is a dwarf of paph godefroyae!!! It is mix up with paph thaianum growing in the nature.
> San


That is a good bit of information! Thanks, San. And welcome to Slippertalk.


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## Paul (Jan 25, 2011)

Hello San,
If both godefroyae and thaianum can be together in nature, how to be sure it's not just a variation of this species? they should hybridize together, unless they don't bloom at the same time?
Thanks,
Paul


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## koshki (Feb 17, 2011)

Ok, this is a paph I could love!!! Too cute! Is this available in the US?


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## Kevin (Feb 17, 2011)

Very nice! Does anyone else see a resemblance to Mexipedium? Not a lot, but it is there. Tall, slender spike; pure white, small flower. The shape is a bit different, though, but not a lot. I don't know, but I just saw a similarity when I saw this. Would be interesting to see the two in bloom together.


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## AquaGem (Feb 19, 2011)

One of my thaianum is finally throwing out 2 spikes. Will see if they look different from the other thaianum.


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## NYEric (Feb 20, 2011)

koshki said:


> Ok, this is a paph I could love!!! Too cute! Is this available in the US?


Not legally anymore!


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## likespaphs (Feb 20, 2011)

NYEric said:


> Not legally anymore!




anymore?
was it?


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## NYEric (Feb 20, 2011)

A bunch of them were evidently imported and dismissed as bad niveum!


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## likespaphs (Feb 20, 2011)

d'oh!


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Feb 20, 2011)

I thought I had had 1 of those...years ago. It was a rather small plant (but not as small as thaianum) with an incredibly tiny bloom...less than an inch. I thought it was the ugliest niveum I had ever seen. It died...but recently I looked up the photo I took of it, and it was a fairly well known niveum cross...I think "rain Forest" was 1 parent? So it was a real niveum...just a dud.


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## s1214215 (Feb 21, 2011)

You know what is insane about this matter.. thaianum has been around for years.. Ask the Thais. They will tell you they thought it was just an inferior niveum. Its not endangered I was told, but the USA seems to have their own rules they slap on top CITES with paphs for whatever reason. KyushuCalanthe told me about this, but I dont recall what he said the reason was for.

I am sending some flasks out of Taiwan to a couple of friends in the USA. I believe flasks are ok. I have sent paph flasks in the past no problems.

Brett


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## AquaGem (Feb 21, 2011)

s1214215 said:


> You know what is insane about this matter.. thaianum has been around for years.. Ask the Thais. They will tell you they thought it was just an inferior niveum. Its not endangered I was told, but the USA seems to have their own rules they slap on top CITES with paphs for whatever reason. KyushuCalanthe told me about this, but I dont recall what he said the reason was for.
> 
> I am sending some flasks out of Taiwan to a couple of friends in the USA. I believe flasks are ok. I have sent paph flasks in the past no problems.
> 
> Brett



Actually if they are not legal in the USA then flask are also not ok.. they need the paper trail... just like hangianum cannot go into the USA even in flasks.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Feb 21, 2011)

All paphs are CITES 1, so collected plants are illegal in the US regardless of species, although if its a species already legally sold in the US they basically slip by. The Vietnamese species pose problems because Vietnam hasn't fulfilled its CITES obligations, according to US interpretation. However, Thailand is a regular exporter of orchids, including paphs, to the US, and has no problem with CITES documents...so flasked thaianum with documentation SHOULD have no problem being imported into the US........


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## AquaGem (Feb 22, 2011)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> All paphs are CITES 1, so collected plants are illegal in the US regardless of species, although if its a species already legally sold in the US they basically slip by. The Vietnamese species pose problems because Vietnam hasn't fulfilled its CITES obligations, according to US interpretation. However, Thailand is a regular exporter of orchids, including paphs, to the US, and has no problem with CITES documents...so flasked thaianum with documentation SHOULD have no problem being imported into the US........



As far as I know, Thailand is not issuing CITES for thaianum bu that was almost 2 years ago. Maybe they are now. Better find out first.


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## s1214215 (Feb 22, 2011)

Hi

I sent flowering size Thaianum plants out with CITES two months ago. I sent 20 plants to Australia. Not a problem at the recieving end. I have yet to send Thaianum flasks, they are available infrequently here, though more often out of Taiwan.

The reason some Paph species cant go into the USA is not CITES I am told, but US rule that is lumped on top of CITES. I will ask KyushuCalanthe to explain as I will talk to him on the weekend. He knows more about it as a USA citizen

Interestingly, Japan has similar rules on Paphs. 

Its all odd to me as many Cyps are more rare than Paphs.. Yet are less restricted.

Brett


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## NYEric (Feb 22, 2011)

If I bought some of the cyps I see on eBay from China the orchid police would set my house on fire!


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## s1214215 (Feb 22, 2011)

NYEric said:


> If I bought some of the cyps I see on eBay from China the orchid police would set my house on fire!



I am sure they would Eric  

What I meant though is that it seems insane to me that Paphs are CITES appendix 1 and Cyps are appendix 2. I just sent some Cyps to Australia with my orchid collection and CITES here in Thailand were stunned when they found out that this was the case. 

Brett


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## AquaGem (Feb 22, 2011)

s1214215 said:


> I am sure they would Eric
> 
> What I meant though is that it seems insane to me that Paphs are CITES appendix 1 and Cyps are appendix 2. I just sent some Cyps to Australia with my orchid collection and CITES here in Thailand were stunned when they found out that this was the case.
> 
> Brett



Will the gassing process kill many of the plants? I know that Australia will gas all plants going in and then have to be quarantine for a period of time?


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Feb 22, 2011)

Leo had a detailed explanation of US policies...the Lacey Act. But basically, if the country of origin can prove that the parent plants were legally obtained, and only the propagations sent for export, then it should be OK, by US standards. Peru had legal exports of kovachii only about 3-4 years after its discovery. I'm sure if the Thai government signs off on the proper CITES documents, thaianum will not be a problem to import. Vietnam has always been the problem...at this point, I'm not even sure why. I think the government won't sign off on any exports...which makes no sense, as it would bring in money.


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## JeanLux (Feb 23, 2011)

s1214215 said:


> ...
> 
> The reason some Paph species cant go into the USA is not CITES I am told, but US rule that is lumped on top of CITES. *I will ask KyushuCalanthe to explain as I will talk to him on the weekend.* He knows more about it as a USA citizen
> 
> ...



Brett please ask Tom to tell his ST-fellows how he is going!!!!!

Jean


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## s1214215 (Feb 23, 2011)

AquaGem said:


> Will the gassing process kill many of the plants? I know that Australia will gas all plants going in and then have to be quarantine for a period of time?



YEs, the methyl bromide is not nice to the plants, and we had a bad experience with Customs using a stronger than normal dosage as they claim to have found a snail. Now as I cleaned the plants, I do not believe it. Still its Customs, and you can fight those bureaucratic creatures.

Interestingly, while I lost some plants that I thought to be tough, all the paphs, including the Thaianum are alive and well in quarantine. They will stay there 3 months before release.

Brett


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## NYEric (Feb 23, 2011)

Keep checking on them!


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## s1214215 (Mar 19, 2011)

Some good news. My Paphs have faired ok.. I lost some thaianum plants, but most are surviving the methyl bromide treatement. Sadly, I lost all my paph sanderianums. Two plants of malipoense made it ok, as did some hybrids.

I have thaianum flasks now anyway ex-Taiwan. I will send some to the USA soon, with CITES and Phyto, so I hope they get there ok.

Brett


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## cnycharles (Mar 19, 2011)

s1214215 said:


> I have thaianum flasks now anyway ex-Taiwan. I will send some to the USA soon, with CITES and Phyto, so I hope they get there ok.
> 
> Brett



how much?


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## s1214215 (Mar 20, 2011)

Hi Charles

I will PM you. I dont mind to get flasks for people on the forum, but I dont know if giving prices is allowed in open discussions.

Brett


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Mar 20, 2011)

I saw this thaianum on Ebay. 
http://cgi.ebay.com/1-plant-Orchids...900?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a64458564

Unlike the Chinese sellers, this place in Thailand is offering CITES documentation, so I would assume that means that thaianum must be OK now for (proper) US importation.


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## likespaphs (Mar 21, 2011)

but will the u.s. issue an import permit may be/is the question...


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## s1214215 (Mar 21, 2011)

I am going to try and find out about the importation of the Paph plants to the USA. If I can get some answers I will post it. 

Not rubbishing that Ebay seller, but I am cautious about thaianum plants now. I managed to purchase some CITES registered Paph thaianum in Northern Thailand. When I took the plants with the certification to Bangkok CITES to export, they were very surprised that the plants had been certified by the Chiang Mai CITES office as flask propagated. It was their belief that the plants were not propagated, but jungle collected. Still, they passed them as they looked nursery grown. Those plants passed the CITES OK and are in Australia now.

Interestingly, of those plants that have bloomed from that batch of plants, half have been species other than thaianum; I have leocochilum, goefroyeii and a hybrid, as well as thaianum from this. I have had other people tell me of similar experiences. So now I prefer to stick with flasks simply because there should be less likelyhood of them being rejected and flowering as some other species. Secondly, most flasks I have seen are Taiwanese propagated and selected parents. Hung Sheng had about 7 sibling crosses when I got my last lot of flasks from them and I could see parent pics on the website.

From what I have been told when I called USDA, you can import 12 flasks or less with no import cert. You only need the cert once you go over that number. You do need a phyto cert though, no matter what number of flasks.

Brett


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## s1214215 (Mar 22, 2011)

I will be posting a thaianum flask next week. I will post how it goes. Talking to CITES, they say there is no reason I cant send this species in flask. USDA seemed to think it was ok too.

Also, I just got another thaianum to bloom from the mixed up batch of plants I bought as thaianum. I will post the pick tonight. 

Brett


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## s1214215 (Mar 23, 2011)

Hi 

Here is another Thaianum from the same batch of plants. Also pictured is a godefroyeii? from the same batch. If I am wrong on the ID, please correct me. I am no paph expert. Just learning here.

The other pic is the media they grow in. Mostly broken brick, volcanic pebbles, gravel, and very free draining. I water once a week, but also have them in very high humidity, misted several times daily.

I am told they come from a place that also has Corybas, Spathoglottis hardingiana and Paph godefroyeii "dwarf" growing in the same place.

Err.. sorry for th banged up bloom on the godeyfroyeii.. I droped it when taking the photo

Brett


















Oh yeah,, This is the first one to bloom in the batch. So far 3 thaianum, this plant, and the godefroyeii?


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## NYEric (Mar 23, 2011)

Thanx for the foto of the inorganic media. 1 thainum and 2 not, I'd go back to the vendor for replacements!


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## s1214215 (Mar 23, 2011)

NYEric said:


> Thanx for the foto of the inorganic media. 1 thainum and 2 not, I'd go back to the vendor for replacements!



Hi Eric

Really you can not tell the plants apart. The only way I can is that thaianum has a rougher (bumpy) feel to the leaves. This is not precise though. All these plants were the same size and same leaf type.

No, it was 3 thaianum, and two not.

To be honest, I am ok. I bought other plants from other sellers and fared worse over the years. This is not the USA, Australia, etc. You really have to take this some poor buys now and then when buying in developing countries for varying reasons. I recently got an order from Sth America. The first I got from the nursery was impeccable. The second, I have to say left much to be desired in time.

I am just happy I got some true wild form thaianums with the plants I got here in Thailand with CITES while I have been here in Thailand. I got them to my home country ok and CITES was OK with them, so I am happy.

The odd thing is this plant has been cultivated for a while in Thailand. However, many growers regarded it as a stunted niveum. Yet it was only declared a species in 2006

I cant wait to see what my select form flasks from Taiwan and primary hybrids (from Hung Sheng) with this species come out like. Actually getting select forms in flask from Taiwan is easier than getting a flask in Thailand.

Brett


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## fibre (Mar 23, 2011)

I like both godefroyae very much! They are great, especially the first one!


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## cnycharles (Mar 24, 2011)

you mention that these grow where there are some corybas... do you know if the species or very similar ones called corybas pictus are available? I've seen pictures of them and they aren't australian so les nesbitt didn't have any


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## s1214215 (Mar 24, 2011)

Hi Charles

I think the species here is Corybas ecarinatus. These plants are not common and very slow to germinate. I have a friend, a professor at Mahindol university who with his students has germinated them and is growing them successfully in the lab. I will post information in a thread under the photos of other species. Check that there for more information.

Brett


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## NYEric (Mar 24, 2011)

When you get select flask available let me know. This time I will take you up on it. Thanx.


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## s1214215 (Mar 24, 2011)

NYEric said:


> When you get select flask available let me know. This time I will take you up on it. Thanx.



Hi Eric

I plan to go to Taiwan to shop for flasks in June/July. I will visit Formosa and Hung Sheng orchids when I do. I will let you know more before then. I am sure I can help you out.

As for the Corybas thread, I will start it tomorrow now. There was an earthquake in Myanmar and my 26th floor apartment was shaking for a minute even though it was hundreds of miles away. So I am a bit delayed getting it done.. 

Brett


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## NYEric (Mar 24, 2011)

I heard about the Myanmar earthquake, they said it was felt in Bangkok! Hope everything is OK, Man, I'm so glad I live on the Atlantic ring of no-fire!


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## s1214215 (Mar 24, 2011)

Yeah, we are fine here.. Just a little shook up. Highrises seem to feel it more when your are up high. 

Bangkok was only a minor earthquake zone, but the tsunami in 2004 shifted the fault lines, and now its a medium risk zone.

I heard there were a few casualties in Chiang Rai in the north though. Anway, alls ok here.

Brett


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## Erythrone (Mar 24, 2011)

NYEric said:


> I heard about the Myanmar earthquake, they said it was felt in Bangkok! Hope everything is OK, Man, I'm so glad I live on the Atlantic ring of no-fire!



So are we!


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## SlipperFan (Mar 24, 2011)

I'm glad to hear you are OK, Brett. I hope there are no more.


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## s1214215 (Apr 2, 2011)

Hi Guys

For those who havent looked into the wanted forum, I am trying to get some flask of this legally into the USA for you guys. Fingers crossed.

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=275873#post275873

Brett


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## quietaustralian (Apr 3, 2011)

s1214215 said:


> Some good news. My Paphs have faired ok.. I lost some thaianum plants, but most are surviving the methyl bromide treatement. Sadly, I lost all my paph sanderianums. Two plants of malipoense made it ok, as did some hybrids.
> 
> I have thaianum flasks now anyway ex-Taiwan. I will send some to the USA soon, with CITES and Phyto, so I hope they get there ok.
> 
> Brett



Methyl bromide is can be particularly toxic to Paphs. AQIS acknowledges this in their own specifications and exempt some species of orchids including Paphs from Methyl bromide treatment. 

“*Condition C8637* 
*Orchidaceae Nursery Stock - Other than Tissue Cultures - Susceptible to Methyl Bromide*
The following genera are currently exempted from mandatory fumigation with methyl bromide: Cymbidium all species, Paphiopedilum all species. Phalaenopsis all species, Renanthera all species, Vanda all species
All other genera and species are to be fumigated with methyl bromide as per condition C7302.”
Regards, Mick


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## likespaphs (Apr 3, 2011)

do you think they would include Paph hybrids?


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## s1214215 (Apr 3, 2011)

The problem is, AQIS exempt them from methyl bromide, but the dip mix that they give as an alternative can be just as lethal. Well, I only lost 5 plants out of 20 I think. Thats not too bad. 

Brett


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## quietaustralian (Apr 3, 2011)

s1214215 said:


> The problem is, AQIS exempt them from methyl bromide, but the dip mix that they give as an alternative can be just as lethal. Well, I only lost 5 plants out of 20 I think. Thats not too bad.
> 
> Brett



The alternative dip is Carbaryl 0.1% active ingredient. Maldison 0.1% active ingredient, White oil 1.0% or Eco-oil®1.0%. The plants are dipped for 30 seconds. I know which treatment I’d prefer.
Regards, Mick


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## s1214215 (Apr 3, 2011)

Hi Mick

Thats not the info I got. Maybe my friends had it wrong. Anway, its all done now. They are in my friends Q-house and are putting out new roots, so those that made it are ok.

Brett


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