# Cattleya Bob Betts ‘white lightening’



## monocotman (Oct 28, 2020)

Just to show that all is not doom and gloom with rot issues. Here is a success story. This arrived with me only about a year ago from Orchids Limited via Germany. There were transport issues and the consignment probably spent about a month in transit. One of the growths still had viable flowers although they were small. None of the roots survived so over the course of the past year this plant has been treated with much TLC.
It is growing in Orchiata in a 6 inch pot and was watered very carefully to begin with.
It probably helps that this was a big mature plant to begin with, with three leads and several big bulbs, so had plenty of resources to fall back on after losing the roots.
It also helps that my culture is probably improving.
Anyway, apart from the four new bulbs being smaller than they could be, the plant is now in excellent health and has six flowers with three more to come.
Its the first time I’ve flowered one of these big whites and I am surprised and the size of the blooms, The biggest are 6.5 to 7 inches across and the scent so pretty strong.


David


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## KateL (Oct 28, 2020)

That is a wonderful Catt!


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## PeteM (Oct 28, 2020)

Definitely not doom and gloom. You have an amazing collection and on top of that you always have a spectacular blooming.


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## DrLeslieEe (Oct 28, 2020)

A great wedding bouquet! Fantastic growing David.


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## Guldal (Oct 28, 2020)

Gorgeous flowers! And congrats on the succesfull rescue, David!


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## abax (Oct 28, 2020)

Beautiful white Catt. flowers and the fragrance is sooo tempting for me. I haven't grown Catts. in years, but your
plants keep tempting me.


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## GuRu (Oct 30, 2020)

What a feast for the eyes these white flowers are. Wonderful.


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## Ozpaph (Oct 31, 2020)

A beautiful classic. Care for it well, please.


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## SouthPark (Oct 31, 2020)

I have heard of the famous C. Bob Betts grex ...... really great to see flowers of one of the cultivars here in this thread! Fantastic flowers seen here. Very nice!


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## monocotman (Oct 31, 2020)

Southpark, there is plenty on the net about this famous grex and it’s equally famous parent, Bow Bells. worth a look!
see the link in the next post. A great read!
David


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## monocotman (Oct 31, 2020)

https://chadwickorchids.com/content/bow-bells-revolution

this is a nice description of the History of two famous grex’s


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## monocotman (Oct 31, 2020)

It would be good to know whether ’white lightening’ is a plant from the original cross of Bob Betts. By the sound of Chadwick’s piece, it may well be as subsequent attempts to remake the cross were not successful in producing top quality flowers. If so then this plant is a good 50 years old and still super vigorous!
D


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## SouthPark (Oct 31, 2020)

monocotman said:


> see the link in the next post. A great read!
> David



Thanks David! That is a great article! I recently saw one of those AOS webinars (the archived ones), with Jean Allen-Ikeson talking about white catts. I quite enjoyed that webinar. And the Bow Bells was definitely mentioned! I was even looking for C. Bob Betts over here. Haven't found one yet!!!!!!


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## My Green Pets (Nov 1, 2020)

Wonderful job, and has me super excited! I have José Martí (Bow Bells 'Snowflake' x Bob Betts 'White Lightning') and cannot wait to see it flower!


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## monocotman (Nov 1, 2020)

Southpark,

The clones of Bob Betts and Bow Bells may well mostly divisions of the original cross.
You may want to ask some fo the older growers and breeders of they have a spare plant,
David


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## SouthPark (Nov 1, 2020)

monocotman said:


> The clones of Bob Betts and Bow Bells may well mostly divisions of the original cross.
> You may want to ask some fo the older growers and breeders of they have a spare plant,
> David



Will do! I will check to see if there are leads on those two. I would love to grow those ones. Thanks David!


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## Ozpaph (Nov 1, 2020)

love that link. Thank-you!


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## Guldal (Nov 2, 2020)

Great link, David... nice informative piece of history!


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## terryros (Nov 2, 2020)

Cattleya Bob Betts (1950) was Bow Bells crossed back to mossiae, so it is 69% mossiae, 19% gaskelliana, and 12% trianae. There are 73 AOS awards for Bob Betts with the most recent one for flower quality in 1974. I think this is the most awarded white Cattleya. 'White Lightening' seems to be the dominant cultivar available in recent years (and what I have), but it is not awarded and I don't think we know where/when it originated. It must have been mericloned to be so available. My fantasy is that there are amazing other cultivars of Bob Betts sequestered in private collections, almost like works of art. Chadwick's do have 'Tacoma' AM/AOS available for $75 so I suspect this might have come from a mericloned line, but maybe not. I would like to know about other cultivars of Bow Bells or Bob Betts that our little group of forum members who love Cattleyas might have or have seen. My Bow Bells is 'July', which was not awarded. I know a non-awarded plant can be great, but some of the pictures I have seen of old awarded Bow Bells and Bob Betts look better than anything I have been able to get in about 4 blooming of each of my plants.


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## SouthPark (Nov 2, 2020)

Just a really minor tiny insignificant note ------ the name is C. Bob Betts ‘White *Lightning*’
MM's flowers are awesome. Got to try find one if there happen to be any over here - under the radar!


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## PeteM (Nov 2, 2020)

terryros said:


> Cattleya Bob Betts (1950) was Bow Bells crossed back to mossiae, so it is 69% mossiae, 19% gaskelliana, and 12% trianae. There are 73 AOS awards for Bob Betts with the most recent one for flower quality in 1974. I think this is the most awarded white Cattleya. 'White Lightening' seems to be the dominant cultivar available in recent years (and what I have), but it is not awarded and I don't think we know where/when it originated. It must have been mericloned to be so available. My fantasy is that there are amazing other cultivars of Bob Betts sequestered in private collections, almost like works of art. Chadwick's do have 'Tacoma' AM/AOS available for $75 so I suspect this might have come from a mericloned line, but maybe not. I would like to know about other cultivars of Bow Bells or Bob Betts that our little group of forum members who love Cattleyas might have or have seen. My Bow Bells is 'July', which was not awarded. I know a non-awarded plant can be great, but some of the pictures I have seen of old awarded Bow Bells and Bob Betts look better than anything I have been able to get in about 4 blooming of each of my plants.



White Cattleyas.. such a fun corner of the orchid world, riddled with rich history and desire.. I'm completely addicted to these.. I've watched this presentation countless times (). I purchased a small flask of Cattleya Bob Betts ‘The Virgin' FCC/AOS x Cattleya Bob Betts ‘Conqueror’ FCC/AOS. a few years back from Marni Turkel. She has an ebay storefront 'Mostlyspecies'.. linked from her website.. (Orchid Plant Sales). Some really cool plants rotate on her listing. I'm looking forward to blooming one of these out in the coming years. 'there are amazing other cultivars of Bob Betts sequestered in private collections' YES, I subscribe to this point of view.


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## monocotman (Nov 2, 2020)

This is a wonderful talk!
David


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## terryros (Nov 2, 2020)

Sorry, poor spelling, and that matters.


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## monocotman (Nov 3, 2020)

Pete, keep us posted on the progress of your cattleya seedlings. Are they as vigorous as their parents?
Terry, sorry you’re right. I find my spelling getting worse as I age. There is a deal of difference between the two words.
David


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## terryros (Nov 3, 2020)

I watched this presentation a year ago or so and immediately realized that there is a whole other elite orchid world that most of us will never see or be part of. My wish list will be constrained and practical. My focus needs to be on trying to grow what I have to its maximum, rather than thinking, "If I could just get those better genes in that elite, awarded plant ...". A good plant that is optimally grown could be better than an elite plant grown only in a mediocre way.


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## PeteM (Nov 10, 2020)

Question for anyone that can help me please. After all these years of growing I am just now realizing that I have no understanding of where to access the RHS awards database? I do have OrchidWiz.. can reference the AOS database. Is there an RHS awards link that can be accessed publicly, with a membership, or is everything only available in PDF publications? 

For instance, CambriaWhat pointed out to me that Cattleya Bob Betts ‘Conqueror’ FCC/AOS is not registered in AOS. I also confirmed this in AOS. After an internet search I was only able to find a reference to a VA Orchid Society show with the Cattleya Bob Betts ‘Conqueror’ FCC/RHS. How do others verify RHS awards on their tags? 

Thanks!

Pete


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## terryros (Nov 10, 2020)

I also hunted and couldn’t find a route to online access through a membership. Saw an Awards Quarterly that looked like it gave access to current awards. Maybe a subscription accesses more. There is a European consortium for orchids and you must be able to be a member with online access. The RHS awards would go way back and be extensive.


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## SouthPark (Nov 10, 2020)

I think that's the current 'fail' with the RHS side of things. And possibly even on the AOS side of things. There really should be a publicly accessible data base ....... or if they really have to, a member-accessible data base for awards.

There's always uncertainty about what to 'trust', such as when I see this *Laelia anceps 'Chamberlainiana' FCC/RHS* from sites like Link1 and Link2, and we can't just do something that should be straight-forward to check up on it.

But - as a home-grower ----- I only put orchid names on my tags. I don't put award information on my tags. I'm only interested in seeing the flowers hehe. But out of interest ------- sometimes it's nice to know extras about a particular kind of orchid - such as if it got an award or not - as in trivia type information (trivia info - as in out of interest ...... not meaning triviaL info!).

But otherwise ---- just for myself, I just like to look at orchid flowers. Awards aren't important to me. But I can definitely understand from a friendly orchid competition perspective or from an orchid breeding perspective - an award label for them will be meaningful to them. So I can understand that awards can be important to some others ------- absolutely ok! The friendly orchid contests at societies is kind of nice I guess ----- as in brings people together, and gives some people some nice challenges etc.


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## Ray (Nov 11, 2020)

Merrit Huntington gave me divisions of two of his awarded plants, ‘Aridine’ and ‘Marie Louise’, both AM’s. In the earlier days, much of Kensington Orchids’ business was cut flowers, and he had a huge greenhouse brimming with big ol’ catts. It was an amazing sight.


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## PeteM (Nov 11, 2020)

Ray said:


> Merrit Huntington gave me divisions of two of his awarded plants, ‘Aridine’ and ‘Marie Louise’, both AM’s. In the earlier days, much of Kensington Orchids’ business was cut flowers, and he had a huge greenhouse brimming with big ol’ catts. It was an amazing sight.



I grew up in Silver Spring MD, 7 miles from Kensington. Merrit was still way before my time as I only started growing in late 2006. Both MOS and NCOS orchid society members are rich with detailed stories about his life, orchid and growing preferences, blooms in the greenhouses ... and both continue to bestow awards to members bearing his name. Make me a time machine Ray, I would like to go back, pick his brain and see all of these Cattleyas in full bloom.


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## terryros (Nov 11, 2020)

The key question, Ray, is are they still surviving with you or someone else? There are about 70 Bob Betts awarded cultivars in AOS (and who knows about RHS). We won't ever know how many of these cultivars are still surviving/thriving in someone's collection, but Ray probably gives us a good suggestion that there could be a lot of them out there.

'Aridine' is so old that all the AOS can do is put it in as on/before 1/1/1965. It is the tenth oldest in their award list. Exhibitor and size are unknown. There is a great looking picture in Orchid Pro.

'Marie Louis' was awarded in 1970 and shown by Kensington. The color of the picture is off, but the shape is gorgeous. Listed as 17.8 cm in horizontal natural spread.


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## SouthPark (Nov 11, 2020)

Not sure Terry. I recall Ray mentioning somewhere that he once had a heater break-down or something, and had lost a bunch of orchids ----- maybe even all of them.


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## KateL (Nov 11, 2020)

PeteM said:


> Question for anyone that can help me please. After all these years of growing I am just now realizing that I have no understanding of where to access the RHS awards database? I do have OrchidWiz.. can reference the AOS database. Is there an RHS awards link that can be accessed publicly, with a membership, or is everything only available in PDF publications?
> 
> For instance, CambriaWhat pointed out to me that Cattleya Bob Betts ‘Conqueror’ FCC/AOS is not registered in AOS. I also confirmed this in AOS. After an internet search I was only able to find a reference to a VA Orchid Society show with the Cattleya Bob Betts ‘Conqueror’ FCC/RHS. How do others verify RHS awards on their tags?
> 
> ...


Hi Pete,
As far as I know, the only place RHS publishes its awards is in The Orchid Review, which is available online by subscription. It appears that some back issues are available (relatively few considering the 100-year history), but I am not a subscriber, so I am not sure how “searchable” it is. Best regards, Kate


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## SouthPark (Nov 11, 2020)

Hopefully they do have a convenient searchable (digital) system that covers the bulk or even all of the awards. Considering that it's now year 2020 ------ one would hope that they have something substantial heheh ..... a decent search engine.


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## Ray (Nov 12, 2020)

South Park is right- the catts were acquired while I still lived in SC (I sold blossoms to local florists), and were going strong in NJ and then PA until a 7-degree (F) night when the greenhouse heater failed.

Similar to Pete, I went to Junior and Senior High in northwest DC, just a few miles farther from Kensington, but 1) I knew nothing about it, and 2) my connection with Merritt was far more coincidental: While at Ga Tech, I volunteered at the public greenhouses in Piedmont park, which have since become the Atlanta Botanical Garden. After about a year, I was asked to help in the orchid greenhouse (odd-looking plants). Some time later, after I had been given a no-name cattleya and gotten hooked, a friend from school, Roger Huntington, stopped by the greenhouse and was talking to the orchid grower.

I said “Roger, I didn’t know you were into orchids!” Everyone laughed and someone showed me an AOS bulletin with an ad promoting membership on the back, signed by his father, Merritt, who was AOS treasurer at the time.


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## PeteM (Nov 12, 2020)

Small world!


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## Linus_Cello (Nov 12, 2020)

We could play 6 degrees of Meritt Huntington. (I’m one degree, met him when we both were in NCOS and went to his greenhouse once. 

Also, I work for Phil Jesup’s son).


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## monocotman (Nov 12, 2020)

I’ve been looking on line to see if I could find out anything about this clone ‘white lightning’. 
The original grex is 70 years old, but is this clone the same age? Does it date from the original cross?
If it is, it is amazingly vigorous!
I cannot find anything about it apart from the fact that many vendors offer it for sale, anyone know more?
David


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## PeteM (Nov 12, 2020)

'Orchid Grower Merritt W. Huntington Dies from The Washington Post'


http://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2005/02/01/orchid-grower-merritt-w-huntington-dies/47cf5d93-3305-4f19-b6a3-c1dedd15d420/?tid=ss_mail


Not sure if this link works.


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## monocotman (Nov 12, 2020)

Pete,
the link brings up the pay wall for me!


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## PeteM (Nov 12, 2020)

K, maybe this will work?


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## My Green Pets (Nov 12, 2020)

So...no connection to the Huntington in LA right?


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## SouthPark (Nov 12, 2020)

The link works for me MM. Could try this link too: *click here*


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## terryros (Nov 12, 2020)

David, I think 'White Lightning' must have been mericloned one or more times to be as available as it is. Mericlones all get to still carry the cultivar name, even though they may vary somewhat from the plant that is cloned, depending on how the genes behave during the cloning. The original 'White Lightning' cultivar may or may not be alive.


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## SouthPark (Nov 12, 2020)

True ...... I think that in general ..... a mericloning process is supposed to yield results, where most of the member results are 'clones' (exact dna match with the 'original'). But there may be members that won't have exact dna match ----- in which case those particular members aren't 'clones', since a clone will have exact dna match. The issue is there appears to be no cheap, reliable/accurate dna test for orchids and also maybe no database containing dna information about the original. So there's the problem of uncertainty.


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## Ray (Nov 13, 2020)

CambriaWhat said:


> So...no connection to the Huntington in LA right?


Correct. No connection.


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## monocotman (Nov 13, 2020)

Terry, thanks for the info.
concerning mericloning, there are differences in the outcomes depending on just how you perform the task.
The best mericlones are when you just take the apical meristem and allow it to grow on agar. By adjusting the medium with hormones, you can get several new shoots to develop.
At no point does the meristem go through the ’callus formation’ stage, it just grows new shoots.
These are the best ones, it is basically like dividing, but the yield of plants is low.
Another way is to take the meristem but adjust the medium so that a blob of undifferentiated cells called a callus forms and grows. This yields many more plants but some of them will not be identical to the original. This is because during the callus formation, there is unchecked cell division and this allows errors to creep into the process.
Many will be ok and indistinguishable at flowering from the parent, but a few may not.
So if you have the chance, view a group of meristems in flower and pick the best one. Sadly, this is not always possible.
It is not unheard of for people to meristem a meristem if the clone is very popular. This can again result in errors and increases the chance of plants varying from the parent.


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## Guldal (Nov 13, 2020)

monocotman said:


> Pete,the link brings up the pay wall for me!


David, just press the 'Free'-option and accept the European dataregulation clause, and you get access to the article in the link!

Sorry, first saw the continuation of the thread, when too late!


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## Guldal (Nov 13, 2020)

Pete, thank you for the little nice piece of orchid history!


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## KateL (Nov 13, 2020)

monocotman said:


> I’ve been looking on line to see if I could find out anything about this clone ‘white lightning’.
> The original grex is 70 years old, but is this clone the same age? Does it date from the original cross?
> If it is, it is amazingly vigorous!
> I cannot find anything about it apart from the fact that many vendors offer it for sale, anyone know more?
> David


Hi David,
I believe there is a high likelihood that it is a mericlone. I have a very distinct memory of seeing row after row of C. Bob Betts ‘White Lightning’ in 10-inch pots at Orchids by Hausermanns in Illinois in 1979. It was an experience that literally changed the course of my life. My recollection is that they had cloned them. Bob Betts was a highly awarded cross, with interesting twists its parentage (another story), but White Lightning was not an awarded clone. I suspect that there were simply too many other sibs that were considered outstanding by AOS judging standards. I recently spoke to Matthias Seelis of Shogun Hawaii, who has amazing legacy cultivars of C. Bow Bells, one of the parents to Bob Betts. He casually mentioned that there are a lot of excellent Bow Bells out there that were never shown to AOS judges. I‘m sure that is true of Bob Betts, as well. 
There is a lot of history of these crosses available in books such as American Cattleyas by Courtney Hackney, Home Orchid Growing by Rebecca Northern, and I would suppose the Chadwick books (I have pre-ordered the 2nd edition, but never saw the first) and others. Chadwick’s website (which you turned me on to) has all of Art’s blogs on there and I know there is one on Bow Bells, but I am not sure about Bob Betts. The AOS website has a July 2019 Webinair on the Story of White Cattleyas, which is quite good. I am not sure whether you have to be a member to view it, but AOS membership is worth the price.
The story of ’White Lightning’ may be lost to time, but if it reveals itself, please share it with us. 
Best regards, Kate


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## terryros (Nov 13, 2020)

Great information, Kate.

David, seems to go with the non-apical meristem approach to get a lot of plants, so there could be detectable variation in the plants and flowers of 'White Lightning' that we all purchase.


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## monocotman (Nov 13, 2020)

Terry,
the one that showed this up was the old Vulstekyara Cambridge ‘plush’. It was mericloned so many times that the last plants bore little resemblance to the first.
Kate, thanks for the information. Interesting. I think that for both Bob Betts and Bow Bells, there were so many outstanding clones that after a time, more awards were unnecessary.


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## Just-passn-thru (Nov 13, 2020)

PeteM said:


> White Cattleyas.. such a fun corner of the orchid world, riddled with rich history and desire.. I'm completely addicted to these.. I've watched this presentation countless times (). I purchased a small flask of Cattleya Bob Betts ‘The Virgin' FCC/AOS x Cattleya Bob Betts ‘Conqueror’ FCC/AOS. a few years back from Marni Turkel. She has an ebay storefront 'Mostlyspecies'.. linked from her website.. (Orchid Plant Sales). Some really cool plants rotate on her listing. I'm looking forward to blooming one of these out in the coming years. 'there are amazing other cultivars of Bob Betts sequestered in private collections' YES, I subscribe to this point of view.



My coveted specimen...
Bob Betts' White Lighting
Ready to display its Majestic Heritage , started to open & 4 more Spikes on the way.

This beautiful Orchid will keep my spirits up this winter. ☃

Will keep you posted on the way to its bloom.


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## SouthPark (Nov 13, 2020)

Just-passn-thru said:


> Bob Betts' White Lighting



Beautiful! The writing on the tag is getting wiped. It is Light*N*ing .... not Lighting.


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## Just-passn-thru (Nov 13, 2020)

SouthPark said:


> Beautiful! The writing on the tag is getting wiped. It is Light*N*ing .... not Lighting.


I hate auto correct, it's Lightning sorry,

Orchids by Hausermann,

I'm new to slipper orchid culture and other species. Except Cymbidiums.
This pandemic has brought my interest to a rather extreme and addictive level.


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## Just-passn-thru (Nov 14, 2020)

Just-passn-thru said:


> My coveted specimen...
> Bob Betts' White Lighting
> Ready to display its Majestic Heritage , started to open & 4 more Spikes on the way.
> 
> ...


Not an orchid purists, just enjoying my new passion. 
Bob Betts White Lightning
In the process of opening. Today's suprise ! Tomorrow fully open.





4 more spikes in the process. I'm so enjoyed to have nurtured my first Cattleya to bloom . 

My paph. Fairrieanum ... 
Ready to open.


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## Guldal (Nov 14, 2020)

Looking forward to see the lightning fully opened, even though I find it very nice as it is!
Pls, keep us posted about the fairrie, too!


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## Just-passn-thru (Nov 14, 2020)

Guldal said:


> Looking forward to see the lightning fully opened, even though I find it very nice as it is!
> Pls, keep us posted about the fairrie, too!


Film at eleven  Thanks...


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## monocotman (Nov 14, 2020)

Kate, I just checked with Hausermanns about white lightning.
They told me that they don’t know the origin of the clone, whether it’s an original from the 50’s or a more recent plant. 
Whatever it is, it’s a beast of a plant. It’s vigor is like nothing else I’ve grown.
David


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## Just-passn-thru (Nov 14, 2020)

monocotman said:


> Kate, I just checked with Hausermanns about white lightning.
> They told me that they don’t know the origin of the clone, whether it’s an original from the 50’s or a more recent plant.
> Whatever it is, it’s a beast of a plant. It’s vigor is like nothing else I’ve grown.
> David


Definitely a beast , we need a lot of space for this giant.


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## KateL (Nov 14, 2020)

monocotman said:


> Kate, I just checked with Hausermanns about white lightning.
> They told me that they don’t know the origin of the clone, whether it’s an original from the 50’s or a more recent plant.
> Whatever it is, it’s a beast of a plant. It’s vigor is like nothing else I’ve grown.
> David


I have read that all early Bob Betts were tetraploids (and another Clint McDade story, about the mossiae pollen parent not really being mossiae, if you’re interested) and the sib crosses and selfings were even better. I would suspect your plant is a tetraploid.


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## KateL (Nov 14, 2020)

PeteM said:


> White Cattleyas.. such a fun corner of the orchid world, riddled with rich history and desire.. I'm completely addicted to these.. I've watched this presentation countless times (). I purchased a small flask of Cattleya Bob Betts ‘The Virgin' FCC/AOS x Cattleya Bob Betts ‘Conqueror’ FCC/AOS. a few years back from Marni Turkel. She has an ebay storefront 'Mostlyspecies'.. linked from her website.. (Orchid Plant Sales). Some really cool plants rotate on her listing. I'm looking forward to blooming one of these out in the coming years. 'there are amazing other cultivars of Bob Betts sequestered in private collections' YES, I subscribe to this point of view.



I just watched for the first time. Great talk!


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## monocotman (Nov 15, 2020)

Just checked with a orchids limited where my plant came from. They tell me that white lightning is an original clone from 70 years ago. 
Its still hugely vigorous. It must have been quite a sight when this grex was in flower in the greenhouses then,
David


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## Just-passn-thru (Nov 15, 2020)

Just-passn-thru said:


> Film at eleven  Thanks...





monocotman said:


> Just to show that all is not doom and gloom with rot issues. Here is a success story. This arrived with me only about a year ago from Orchids Limited via Germany. There were transport issues and the consignment probably spent about a month in transit. One of the growths still had viable flowers although they were small. None of the roots survived so over the course of the past year this plant has been treated with much TLC.
> It is growing in Orchiata in a 6 inch pot and was watered very carefully to begin with.
> It probably helps that this was a big mature plant to begin with, with three leads and several big bulbs, so had plenty of resources to fall back on after losing the roots.
> It also helps that my culture is probably improving.
> ...


 Outstanding


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## monocotman (Nov 16, 2020)

A final photo of three of the leads and a total of eight flowers. Another lead that grew later in the summer has some small buds showing in the sheath and may flower in a month or so.
Not bad for a plant that had no roots a year ago and a clone and grex that are 70 years old!


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## SouthPark (Nov 16, 2020)

monocotman said:


> a clone and grex that are 70 years old!



Extremely nice flowers. Is there a limit for catt orchids in terms of age? Or can they potentially keep going indefinitely without mutating and without issue?


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## monocotman (Nov 16, 2020)

In theory, yes they can continue forever. They renew themselves every time they grow a new pseudobulb.


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## Guldal (Nov 16, 2020)

Exquisite!


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## terryros (Nov 16, 2020)

Excellent growing,David. Don’t you think that almost all of us have mericlones of ‘White Lightning’ and these could even be mericlones of mericlones? I doubt that any of us have divisions of the original plant and the original plant might not even exist. This doesn’t diminish the importance of having parts of an old cultivar, however we might get it.


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## monocotman (Nov 16, 2020)

I agree. I’m sure that what we all have are mericlones and maybe even mericlones of mericlones.
What surprises me is just how good this mericlone is, even after 70 years. Maybe there is some reduction in quality but as we don’t know what the original looks like, how do we know?
Its still a pretty good cattleya. If the original was better, it must have been quite a plant.
plus this one is even one of the awarded ones!
maybe it was one of the most vigorous ones that grew well and was easy and quick propagate


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## PeteM (Nov 16, 2020)

monocotman said:


> I agree. I’m sure that what we all have are mericlones and maybe even mericlones of mericlones.
> What surprises me is just how good this mericlone is, even after 70 years. Maybe there is some reduction in quality but as we don’t know what the original looks like, how do we know?
> Its still a pretty good cattleya. If the original was better, it must have been quite a plant.
> plus this one is even one of the awarded ones!
> maybe it was one of the most vigorous ones that grew well and was easy and quick propagate



Maybe you are just an exceptional grower.


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## SouthPark (Nov 16, 2020)

The original plant, or divisions of the original ----- is likely still around out there. Just under the radar.


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## SouthPark (Nov 16, 2020)

monocotman said:


> In theory, yes they can continue forever. They renew themselves every time they grow a new pseudobulb.



This is good/promising news. I once read/heard ---- but not sure if it's true - that human cells can only divide a certain number of times before a big issue occurs. But looks like orchid cells can keep on going indefinitely.


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## DrLeslieEe (Nov 17, 2020)

What a show you have going there David.

At this point you qualify for a cultural award of CCE (92 points) as it matches the last one awarded by AOS with also 8 flowers in toll in 2012.

This goes to show the longevity of this lineage from Bow Bells, whose progeny of over 4000 hybrids, has produced FCC/AOS as recent as 2016 as a grandparent to Rlc. Taida Eagle Eye 'White Angel' FCC/AOS!

The meristem of orchids seem to continue forever and does not seem to produce the aging organelles of the older cells. That is why orchids will produce new growths in perpetuity. I have heirloom cattleya species (divisions) here that were collected over a century ago! Yes, they will outlive us!


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## monocotman (Nov 17, 2020)

It’s a pity that the original parents of Bow Bells have been lost. If you read the Chadwick’s account, one is at the bottom of the Atlantic after it was on a boat torpedoed by the Germans in the Second World War. Ironically it was being sent the the US for safe keeping.
It wouled have been very interesting to remake the cross.


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## DrLeslieEe (Nov 17, 2020)

monocotman said:


> It’s a pity that the original parents of Bow Bells have been lost. If you read the Chadwick’s account, one is at the bottom of the Atlantic after it was on a boat torpedoed by the Germans in the Second World War. Ironically it was being sent the the US for safe keeping.
> It wouled have been very interesting to remake the cross.


Luckily we have enough Bow Bells and Bob Betts around to continue this legacy. All major great whites today are thanks to these genes.


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## monocotman (Nov 17, 2020)

Leslie,
another piece to the puzzle.
as Kate alluded to earlier, there appears to be some doubt about what was crossed with bow bells to produce Bob Betts. It’s officially mossiae alba but apparently it is possible that it was actually a clone of x gravesiana (mossiae x lueddemanniana) masquerading as a mossiae. There are some lovely clones of x gravesiana alba around and as it’s a natural hybrid, some may have been mistaken for a straight mossiae. 
David


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## DrLeslieEe (Nov 17, 2020)

True indeed. Unfortunately we were not there to witness these events. There are many points in the past when wrong species or hybrids were named incorrectly as parents, with the resulting offspring unlike any current reproductions. We have no choice but to accept these inconsistencies and move along lol.


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## monocotman (Nov 17, 2020)

Agreed. I am looking forward to the day in the not too distant future when we have genetic markers for all these things and it should be possible to work out what went on.


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## SouthPark (Nov 17, 2020)

DrLeslieEe said:


> We have no choice but to accept these inconsistencies and move along lol.



True! Absolutely agree DLE. I often just fall back on just accepting and enjoying and admiring orchids and their flowers, behaviours etc for what they are ----- name or no name or no tag or ID etc.

I guess it does throw a spanner in the works for classification systems and convention systems, and judging/breeding ---- hahaha. Totally understandable. But going back to accepting and moving on is a nice step.


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## Tom-DE (Nov 21, 2020)

I wish I still had mine(a different clone). Nice job!


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## terryros (Nov 21, 2020)

monocotman said:


> I agree. I’m sure that what we all have are mericlones and maybe even mericlones of mericlones.
> What surprises me is just how good this mericlone is, even after 70 years. Maybe there is some reduction in quality but as we don’t know what the original looks like, how do we know?
> Its still a pretty good cattleya. If the original was better, it must have been quite a plant.
> plus this one is even one of the awarded ones!
> maybe it was one of the most vigorous ones that grew well and was easy and quick propagate


David, I have not been able to find 'White Lightning' as an AOS awarded cultivar. Perhaps it is RHS awarded.


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## monocotman (Nov 21, 2020)

Terry,
I am not sure that this clone was ever awarded. So many of this grex were of such high standard that it was felt that enough is enough after 66 AOS awards and they gave up.
Maybe this is the one that has stood the test of time as regards vigour, growability and ease of mericloning and so is the one that is most often offered.
As a proof of the vigour, I’ve just measured the biggest leaf. It’s about 13 inches long and just under 4 inches wide at the widest point.
It’s huge.
Twice the area of the ones currently producing blooms.
Not bad for a clone that is probably over 70 years old.
David


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## kitfox (Nov 21, 2020)

Seagrove Orchids has a division of ‘Liberty Hill’ AM/AOS that has never tempted me...until now...


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## KateL (Nov 21, 2020)

The Bob Betts grex has 66 AOS awarded cultivars, including 2 FCCs, mostly in the 50s and 60s, the most awarded of any of Bow Bells progeny. White Lightning is not one of them .


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## Tom-DE (Nov 21, 2020)

*FYI, A flower/plant with a clonal name doesn't mean it has been awarded by AOS or RHS. *David has never indicated it is an awarded plant/flower by AOS or RHS. You can give your plant a clonal name if you think it is desirable...there is no rule against that.


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## KateL (Nov 21, 2020)

Tom-DE said:


> *FYI, A flower/plant with a clonal name doesn't mean it has been awarded by AOS or RHS. *David has never indicated it is an awarded plant/flower by AOS or RHS. You can give your plant a clonal name if you think it is desirable...there is no rule against that.


Hi Tom, I think David probably hit the nail on the head. There were so many great whites in the day, they could not all be judged. C. Bow Bells ‘Honolulu’, which I understand to be the pod parent of the 1950 Bob Betts cross, was never judged. Best, Kate


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## monocotman (Dec 31, 2020)

As a follow up. White lightning put up another bloom on a late growth. Here it is with percivaliana albescens’ Oro blanco’. I love it when a cattleya with no roots is sufficiently vigorous to produce successive growths in its first season. It gives me two blooming seasons.


David


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## My Green Pets (Dec 31, 2020)

Thank you for posting it! As I mentioned before, I have José Martí (Bow Bells 'snowflake' x Bob Betts 'White Lightning') and the form on your WL looks really nice and balanced. In the Historic Whites video also mentioned earlier in this thread, Jeff Bradley shows that 'Snowflake' is somewhat inferior in terms of flower shape, so I am hopeful that my JM will inherit the nice shape of WL. What is the natural spread of the flower?


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## monocotman (Jan 1, 2021)

William,
the natural spread of this flower is 6.5 inches. It’s a good size, probably because it is a single bloom. 
Good luck with the Jose Marti!
David


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## Guldal (Jan 1, 2021)

I love your percy 'Oro Bianco'!

I wish you a Happy and Floriferous New Year, David! 

Wonder where that last-minute Brexit-trade-agreement landed you CITES-wise?!


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## monocotman (Jan 1, 2021)

Thanks Guldal,
and a happy new year to you too!
at the moment, as far as I can see, we need cites and a phyto to import from the EU.
That may change in the coming weeks, but then again, it may not! 
time will tell. Glad I stocked up on new plants before Brexit,
David


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## monocotman (Jan 2, 2021)

Guldal,
the Oro blanco is growing on me. The lip colour continues to develop as the flower ages and is now a deep egg yolk ( free range not battery) yellow,
David


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## Ozpaph (Jan 2, 2021)

lovely


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## cnycharles (Jan 2, 2021)

Amazing flowers! And interesting stories through the pages. I was at Kensington orchids when a new grower visiting relatives; wish still had those plants


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## Guldal (Jan 2, 2021)

monocotman said:


> Guldal,
> the Oro blanco is growing on me. The lip colour continues to develop as the flower ages and is now a deep egg yolk ( free range not battery) yellow,
> David


Ah, nice! Does it deserve an update photo?


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## SouthPark (Jan 2, 2021)

monocotman said:


> Guldal,
> the Oro blanco is growing on me. The lip colour continues to develop as the flower ages and is now a deep egg yolk ( free range not battery) yellow,
> David



That's because you're feeding it lettuce leaves instead of grain


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## monocotman (Jan 3, 2021)

Guldal,
here is Oro blanco when it first opened and now.
Quite a change.




David


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## Guldal (Jan 3, 2021)

OMG! It's, indeed a glorious stunner, David. 

I need one, too...and quite badly! (was it this plant, that was a freebie from the estimable mr. Strauß?)


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## monocotman (Jan 3, 2021)

It was! He may still have the clone.
David


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## masaccio (Jan 23, 2021)

This stunning photo has re-ignited my standard cattleya passion. I thought I'd moved on, but no. Can't hope, nor would I necessarily deserve to own such a plant. But I do know that I'll resume my cattleya trolling and that they will have a more respectful share of my resources going forward. I wish it was sniff-a-vision! Congrats!


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