# New to breeding



## practicallyostensible (Apr 16, 2007)

Well, I think that I am finally ready to try and take the leap into hybridization and propagation. I was wondering if anyone had some recommendations for internet and print sources to get me started. Thanks all!


----------



## Marco (Apr 16, 2007)

here's a link to Uri's website http://baruk1.club.fr/baruk1/home/invitro-ang.htm


----------



## Roy (Apr 17, 2007)

If I can add my few cents worth, DON'T make crosses for the heck of it. Make a responsible cross that you stand a chance of getting quality blooms from. Too many people start out doing a cross to see if they can do it. Its a waste of time and money. Depending on the type of Paph/ Phrag whatever you grow, use the best plants you have to breed with OR beg or borrow some pollen from another grower to use on your best plant. With Paphs, there will always be the majority sellers, the really good ones are few but are well worth the wait. Another point is to wait till the flower to hold the pod is fully open and set, maybe a week after opening. The same goes for the flower of the pollen donor. ( saved pollen from a previous years flower can be used but the likelyhood of not taking is much higher. )


----------



## NYEric (Apr 17, 2007)

I dont know about that for Phrags like besseae.


----------



## Roy (Apr 18, 2007)

Phrag besseae is slightly different. As we have seen examples of on this forum, the quality varies. It is not 'always' the best clones produce the best progeny but its a darn good starting place. Phrag besseae used with similar style flowers light schlimii, Jason Fischer, Saint ouen etc produces great flowers when a 'good' besseae is used, an average one produces average progent. The comparisons are there for all to see. What ever you wish to breed with, the same rule applies, use the best possible.


----------



## Roy (Apr 18, 2007)

More to the besseae as an observation, if a besseae is bred with any of the 'long petal' type phrags, the apparent intent is to introduce the color of besseae. This of course has been successful and maybe the quality of the besseae shape is less important but from my experience the benefit of using good shape as well is definitely a benefit.


----------



## slippertalker (Apr 18, 2007)

I agree with Roy, in that breeding is not worth the effort unless you 1) have a good idea of the goals of the cross, or future crosses 2) use the absolute best clones possible 3) understand the genetics of the parents. If you haphazardly just make crosses with mediocre parents you are just wasting your time, and the results will most likely be poor.


----------



## practicallyostensible (Apr 18, 2007)

slippertalker said:


> I agree with Roy, in that breeding is not worth the effort unless you 1) have a good idea of the goals of the cross, or future crosses 2) use the absolute best clones possible 3) understand the genetics of the parents. If you haphazardly just make crosses with mediocre parents you are just wasting your time, and the results will most likely be poor.



It irks me a little bit that there seems to be some rampant assumption that I (or anyone that is new to breeding) would just haphazardly jump into the process. Of course I have a list of crosses that I want to take a stab at, and I make a earnest attempt to NEVER buy mediocre plants, much less ones that I am going to take the time to propagate or cross. I've been growing for awhile now and I am interested in taking that next leap and honestly, I feel like I shouldn't need to justify my reasoning. I may not be as knowledgeable as the professionals in the orchid growing business, or many of the individuals on this forum, but everyone has to start somewhere.


----------



## kentuckiense (Apr 18, 2007)

practicallyostensible said:


> It irks me a little bit that there seems to be some rampant assumption that I (or anyone that is new to breeding) would just haphazardly jump into the process. Of course I have a list of crosses that I want to take a stab at, and I make a earnest attempt to NEVER buy mediocre plants, much less ones that I am going to take the time to propagate or cross. I've been growing for awhile now and I am interested in taking that next leap and honestly, I feel like I shouldn't need to justify my reasoning. I may not be as knowledgeable as the professionals in the orchid growing business, or many of the individuals on this forum, but everyone has to start somewhere.


I agree with this. If I want to give plant Paph breeding a try, why can't I use my two (hypothetical) Home Depot NOIDs? It's about the learning experience. Not all of us give a damn about the "best" parents. It's about learning the process and observing.


----------



## Heather (Apr 18, 2007)

kentuckiense said:


> I agree with this. If I want to give plant Paph breeding a try, why can't I use my two (hypothetical) Home Depot NOIDs? It's about the learning experience. Not all of us give a damn about the "best" parents. It's about learning the process and observing.



Agreed. 
Early on, I selfed a nice wallisii because I could. I then realized I had not the patience needed for that sort of business so I eventually cut the spike/pod. I learned a lot from that experience and hence my cross does not exist. Had I not tried it, I would not have learned it was not for me. 

However, I learned how to pollinate, what to or to not pollinate, and why, and what a capsule looks like and how long it takes....it was a worthwhile experience for sure!


----------



## Kyle (Apr 19, 2007)

In my opinion, the best argument for using the best available parents is that it takes the same effort and expenses to raise/flask offspring from superior parents as it does to raise the seedlings from crappy offspring.

That said one persons best available might not be up to par with another persons best available. So, use your best available. Don't be afraid to ask for pollen.

Another thought is, once its all said and done, you might end up with hundreds of seedlings. Its alot easier to get rid of seedlings from two awarded parents then it is trying to unload hundreds of seedlings from two crappy flowers. 

I don't make crosses to make money or with the goal of retiring early, but I do consider the potential of a cross to sell. After all, I don't want every seedling, one or two of the nicest ones will do. The rest have to end up somewhere.


----------



## gore42 (Apr 19, 2007)

Also in Agreement.

Actually, I disagree about the need to breed only the finest "award quality" plants (at least, depending on your goals). If you really care about awardability, or if you're making a commercial venture, or if you're breeding towards a particular type of hybrid, there is undoubtedly merit to Slippertalker's comments.

Even in the propagation of species, it may be very important for those who are commercially minded to use only "Award Quality" parents. However, it is equally (or perhaps more) importatant to propagate species that are not quite as perfect in the eye of orchid judges, in order to maintain variety in the forms of the blooms that are available to collectors, and to increase the amount of variation in the gene pool. After all, there is a good chance that many of the orchids that we love will go extinct in the wild during the next century, due to development or over collection (or both) or a host of other reasons. It would be a pity if all of the genetic variation were bred out out of these species and then lost forever. On this ground, I'm in favor of breeding ANY species that happens to bloom (even if they are only for my personal collection, and not for sale).

Just my $0.02 


As Ever,
Matthew Gore

Oh, and if you're still looking for a bit of flasking info, here are a few links I've collected, you may have already found them yourself  :

http://www.ceiba.org/documents/CFTCpropman.pdf
from: http://www.ceiba.org/propagation.htm

http://members.cox.net/lmlauman/osp/html/flasking1.html
(and look around at the other info at the OSP)

http://www.orchidsource.com/GB_seed_manual.html

http://www.rbgkew.org.uk/science/micropropagation/bgmnews.html


----------



## Roy (Apr 19, 2007)

Julia, please dont get me wrong. I have taught many growers how to breed with many orchid genera. The first thing they do is make a cross to see if they can get it right. They of course use their favorite plants, which are far from anything anyone else would use. When eventually they get the seedlings back and flower them, the best of the results is rubbish. Kentuckiense must have too much money to indicate what was suggested. *Heather*, the pod you set was worth good money just to sell the pod. Kyle is spot on. If you wish to venture into breeding orchids, all I wished to express is, dont rush in like many do. Carefully concider what you would like to achieve from the cross and browse the net to see if the same or similar crossings have been done and look at the results. I do not question your knowledge, its my advice to prevent a lot of wasted time and money for poor results. Gore42 is also spot on with the species angle, they will always be a good bet to preferably 'outcross' or self, awarded clones are definitely not a requirement. Awarded hybrids are not always the best breeders also. Many Awarded plants have come from just good 'show bench' clones mated.


----------



## practicallyostensible (Apr 19, 2007)

Roy said:


> Julia, please dont get me wrong. I have taught many growers how to breed with many orchid genera. The first thing they do is make a cross to see if they can get it right. They of course use their favorite plants, which are far from anything anyone else would use. When eventually they get the seedlings back and flower them, the best of the results is rubbish. Kentuckiense must have too much money to indicate what was suggested. Heather, the pod you set was worth good money just to sell the pod. Kyle is spot on. If you wish to venture into breeding orchids, all I wished to express is, dont rush in like many do. Carefully concider what you would like to achieve from the cross and browse the net to see if the same or similar crossings have been done and look at the results. I do not question your knowledge, its my advice to prevent a lot of wasted time and money for poor results.



No offence taken, I was just a little thrown off with those two responses. I appreciate your input, I just didn't want another ten responses reiterating slippertalker's sentiments, especially considering the amount of careful consideration and research I have put into the matter.


----------



## Roy (Apr 19, 2007)

No problem, let us know how you go. Good luck.


----------



## kentuckiense (Apr 19, 2007)

Roy said:


> Kentuckiense must have too much money to indicate what was suggested.



Just because I've never purchase NOIDs from Home Depot, which would've been severely overpriced anyway ($30-40?), does not mean that I have plenty of money to blow. Thanks for your consideration, though.


----------



## littlefrog (Apr 19, 2007)

Of course when we see a question about people wanting to make their first cross, we usually jump to the conclusion that they really shouldn't... I'm not saying it is right, but I'm as guilty as anybody. Usually people who ask me about this really need to do their homework first. Obviously Julia has, and I think asking here is a good idea, there is a lot of information to be had.

Now, for my perspective as 'orchid judge', not that this is any more valid than anybody else's. If you are interested in awards, you need to use quality parents. This should be obvious, yes? However, you can also make a big splash by using combinations that nobody else has thought of, or combinations that many people have thought of but didn't want to assume the risk of making the cross. I can't even count the number of times I've seen a really interesting plant and thought to myself 'I wouldn't have made this cross in a million years, bravo!'. 

For my money, if I were making my first crosses I would remake some classic crosses. That would depend on the plants available for stud, of course. For example, in primary hybrids there are a number of crosses made 100 years ago that would really benefit from being remade with even the most mediocre of modern line bred species. As an example of what can happen, look at Maudiae. This has been remade several times in the last few decades with excellent results. There are a lot of advantages to remaking old crosses. The first is that you know what to expect, and you can learn a lot about what your particular set of parent plants can contribute to any changes from the 'norm'. Second, you shouldn't have any trouble selling or giving away your extras. Third, it really needs to be done. I'd love to see Phrag. Mem. Dick Clements, Eric Young, Hanne Popow, etc, remade with the best modern besseae. I'd buy the best of those, because I'd like to use them to remake the next generation...


----------



## Hien (Apr 19, 2007)

I like both Kyle & Matt's answers.
You probably think I am the craziest person on earth.
last year, I put:
-a Laelia-cattleya pollen on the oncidium intergeneric.(and reversed cross)
-a dendrobium pollen on a phalaenopsis. The phalaenopsis rejects it right away.
-a paph pollen on a phrag
the Lc actually produces a pod but no germination. Same with the paph-phrag pod. 
I did not used any choice parents, just the ones I got from the show-sale.
I figure they breed them enough to clone and sell them, so they are good enough for me for now.


----------



## kentuckiense (Apr 19, 2007)

Hien said:


> the Lc actually produces a pod but no germination. Same with the paph-phrag pod.



Sounds like something along the lines of apomixis. Although, apomixis results in reproduction (viable seeds). Probably some similar mechanisms going on, though.


----------



## Rick (Apr 19, 2007)

I would also check out Troy Meyers website. Meyers Conservatory.

which I think is troymeyers.com


----------



## slippertalker (Apr 19, 2007)

practicallyostensible said:


> No offence taken, I was just a little thrown off with those two responses. I appreciate your input, I just didn't want another ten responses reiterating slippertalker's sentiments, especially considering the amount of careful consideration and research I have put into the matter.



I didn't realize you would take my comments negatively as they certainly weren't intended that way. My experience with my own crosses and hybridizing by others brought me to those conclusions. I have made crosses that I thought would be interesting but ended up with poor progeny partially due to the quality of the parents. Good luck with your attempts!

You definitely don't always achieve your goals, but surprises can be interesting. Also, reciprical crosses can have different results so try them both ways. Of course getting viable seed can be a problem with some crosses, but some hybridizers have attempted the same crosses over several years with variable success.


----------



## kentuckiense (Apr 19, 2007)

slippertalker said:


> Also, reciprical crosses can have different results so try them both ways.


It'd be neat to see blooms of these side by side. Anyone know any websites where that is possible?


----------



## practicallyostensible (Apr 20, 2007)

slippertalker said:


> I didn't realize you would take my comments negatively as they certainly weren't intended that way. My experience with my own crosses and hybridizing by others brought me to those conclusions. I have made crosses that I thought would be interesting but ended up with poor progeny partially due to the quality of the parents. Good luck with your attempts!
> 
> You definitely don't always achieve your goals, but surprises can be interesting. Also, reciprical crosses can have different results so try them both ways. Of course getting viable seed can be a problem with some crosses, but some hybridizers have attempted the same crosses over several years with variable success.



I appreciate the input, as I stated earlier, I just didn't want another few responses reiterating the same thing i.e. "If you haphazardly just make crosses with mediocre parents you are just wasting your time" which assumes that I was both planning to just cross haphazardly and that I have mediocre plants (Which happen to be two statements far from the truth :rollhappy: ). Don't get me wrong, you people know far more then I, and I love to hear what you have to say, I was just a little thrown off. 

The majority of my plants are awarded species, so I'll be sticking with species and primary hybrids for awhile and hopefully viability and vigor won't be a problem. Littlefrog's answer was interesting because I've had Eric Young in the back of my head for awhile. We'll see how it goes, if I'm successful (and not kicking myself for taking your advice) you guys here are going to be the first ones to know (and hopefully take plants off my hands). 

Cheers all!


----------



## NYEric (Apr 20, 2007)

Heather said:


> Agreed.
> Early on, I selfed a nice wallisii because I could. I then realized I had not the patience needed for that sort of business so I eventually cut the spike/pod.


:rollhappy:


----------



## Ellen (Apr 21, 2007)

Since I'm a fan of species, I'd like to suggest that all those "elite" hybrids you're talking about are just mutts that resulted from someone saying "hey, I wonder what would happen if...". Maybe the only orchids worth propagating are species, and we should concentrate on choosing the "best" representatives of the species to propagate. Hm... what is this starting to sound like?? Anyway, I agree that diversity and experimentation are both good things, and that it's a worthwhile experience to pollinate your favorite plant be it a rare species, super expensive elite hybrid that you had to take out a second mortgage to buy, or Paph Home Depot 'Rootless Wonder' x Paph Lowe's 'Mealybug Heaven'. There's something really rewarding about seeing your pollination succeed and watching a capsule grow. Of course you (or the parent plant) can choose to abort at any time, so there's no commitment to raising the offspring or finding homes for them.


----------



## paphreek (Apr 21, 2007)

Ellen said:


> ...Anyway, I agree that diversity and experimentation are both good things, and that it's a worthwhile experience to pollinate your favorite plant be it a rare species, super expensive elite hybrid that you had to take out a second mortgage to buy,...



Actually, many times, divisions of high quality, awarded species are much more expensive than comparable hybrids.


----------



## NYEric (Apr 26, 2007)

Awarded divisions are expensive because of the quality, which can be imparted into the plant's prodgeny [children].


----------



## Mrs. Paph (Apr 26, 2007)

Man, some of you must have been spoiled as beginners if you had Paphs at Home Depot and Lowe's. Not the best I'm sure, but better than trying to buy your first Paph online and ending up being duped into a TINY plant that the vendor claimed was near blooming size! Around here there have Never been Paphs, plenty of over-watered Phals though! (I get them for a couple bucks and nurse them back to health to give as gifts or to sell to the first person that asks where they can buy one of their own...right here...hehehe ) Anyway, topic, breeding...I'm still in the process of collecting more of the quality parents I want for my secret breeding plans:wink: 
~Miss Paph


----------



## Hien (Apr 27, 2007)

Miss Paphiopedilum said:


> Man, some of you must have been spoiled as beginners if you had Paphs at Home Depot and Lowe's. Not the best I'm sure, but better than trying to buy your first Paph online and ending up being duped into a TINY plant that the vendor claimed was near blooming size! Around here there have Never been Paphs, plenty of over-watered Phals though! (I get them for a couple bucks and nurse them back to health to give as gifts or to sell to the first person that asks where they can buy one of their own...right here...hehehe ) Anyway, topic, breeding...I'm still in the process of collecting more of the quality parents I want for my secret breeding plans:wink:
> ~Miss Paph


 I am shocked to find out that there is some places in our country that orchids are still rare.


----------



## slippertalker (Apr 27, 2007)

Hien said:


> I am shocked to find out that there is some places in our country that orchids are still rare.



Heck, my first paphs were jungle collected imports in the 70's. You don't have to have a nursery in your back yard to buy plants these days. It does certainly help though.....


----------

