# Nutrient deficiency?



## The Mutant (Jun 14, 2013)

Look at how yellow all of my roths have turned! What's wrong? I had them too close to the T5, but it must be something else as well. Why are they so yellow and how can I fix it? I got really depressed when I compared the old and new photos. They've all lost so many leaves and turned so yellow... 

Also, if there is something they lack, do any of the Nordic members know how I can get hold of whatever it is they need? It seems to be hard to buy certain chemicals here in Sweden due to idiots using them in bombs and such. 

How it looked when I got it:






How it looks now (it has turned so yellow, that there must be something wrong...):





The acclamied 'MM' x self when I got it:





Now:





The x sib 'Jim Krull' x 'CC' when I got it:





And what's left of it now...:





The x sib 'Oriental Red' x 'MM' when I got it:





And now:


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## Ozpaph (Jun 14, 2013)

Do they have roots?
How much and what fertiliser are you using?
LESS light.


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## Bjorn (Jun 14, 2013)

Possibly less light, but also ammonia/urea
B


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## The Mutant (Jun 14, 2013)

The less light is already in action, by me raising the T5. How many hours would you say it should be on? They all stand in an East facing window, so they also get natural daylight.

They are being fed K-lite and seaweed extract (40 ppm N). Almost all have roots, especially 'Starship', it had an impressive root system when I repotted it a month ago. 'Oriental Red' x 'MM' has one viable root that I can see without digging in the pot, plus it has a new root growing. The acclaimed 'MM' x self, I don't know. It's time to repot it soon, so then I'll see what the roots look like. 'Jim Krull' x 'CC' has no viable roots or new roots that I can see, unfortunately. 

*Bjorn:* Where can I get ammonia/urea, and what is it called? Do you know the Swedish name for it, or do you know a brand that's being sold up here in the north?


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## gonewild (Jun 14, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> I got really depressed when I compared the old and new photos.



When you compare old and new photos you must take the photos using the same light source. Assuming the new photos are taken using the same white background.....Notice the color of the old background in the photos is a blue grey color and notice in the new photos it is a warmer shade of white. The warmer color light will make the green leaves look more yellow and the original light make the leaves look darker green. 

I'm not saying the leaves have not gotten more yellow just pointing out that you really noticed the difference when you compared before and after pictures. Maybe the actual difference is not as extreme as the pictures make you think.

If you can in Photoshop adjust the color balance of the new pictures until the white background color matches the color of the old background. Don't try to adjust the leaf color. If you add blue, green and cyan the leaves start to look more green.


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## Bjorn (Jun 14, 2013)

Mutant: uncertain about that; when my plants got pale after a season with only K-lite I started mixing it 50:50 with an urea based foliar feed. Had to adjust pH down with quite significant amounts of citric acid doing that so I would not recommend this practise to someone without a certain chemistry background and a pH meter. Most house plant fertilisers have a certain amount of ammonium-N look at the label and use some additional to the K-Lite. Ammonium-N is more or less the same as urea since the urea transform to ammonium. Problem is that ammonium fertilisers may acidify the soil quite significantly. In that case some limestone is required. Also: a fertiliser level of 150-300 ppm is ok. 300ppm is 3g/10l. Perhaps best to use a stock solution?
Btw. My plants are not pale anymore (with a few exeptions) but it took some time.


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## keithrs (Jun 14, 2013)

How often do you feed?


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## papheteer (Jun 14, 2013)

My plants showed that kind of yellowing too. I switched to a urea based fertilizer 3 months ago and my plants have greened up. In some of then the improvement is night and day! I also started using just tap water.


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## The Mutant (Jun 14, 2013)

Bjorn said:


> Mutant: uncertain about that; when my plants got pale after a season with only K-lite I started mixing it 50:50 with an urea based foliar feed. Had to adjust pH down with quite significant amounts of citric acid doing that so I would not recommend this practise to someone without a certain chemistry background and a pH meter. Most house plant fertilisers have a certain amount of ammonium-N look at the label and use some additional to the K-Lite. Ammonium-N is more or less the same as urea since the urea transform to ammonium. Problem is that ammonium fertilisers may acidify the soil quite significantly. In that case some limestone is required. Also: a fertiliser level of 150-300 ppm is ok. 300ppm is 3g/10l. Perhaps best to use a stock solution?
> Btw. My plants are not pale anymore (with a few exeptions) but it took some time.


Okay, I have some ordinary fertilizer, so I'll add some of that (it has N, I checked). We have pretty high pH where I live, so hopefully that won't be an issue. I have recently ordered an osmosis filter, and I saw that the same web shop has both pH meters and TDS meters at reasonable prices, so I'll save till I can buy both (I seem to need them after all). 

Thanks a lot Bjorn! 



keithrs said:


> How often do you feed?


Every watering.


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## The Mutant (Jun 14, 2013)

*Bjorn:*Is it okay to add epsom salts with every watering? Others have suggested it in the other thread, so I thought I should do that. Should I mix the ordinary fertilizer with K-lite, and add epsom salts on top of that?


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## Bjorn (Jun 14, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> *Bjorn:*Is it okay to add epsom salts with every watering? Others have suggested it in the other thread, so I thought I should do that. Should I mix the ordinary fertilizer with K-lite, and add epsom salts on top of that?



Should be ok, I have done that in the past. Just do not exaggerate the amounts. Try to mix stock solutions of the ingredients and use those to add to the irrigation water. K-lite first, then epsom salt. Do not mix the stock solutions as this will most probably cause precipitation. However if you use K-lite, epsom salt should hardly be necessary?


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## Ruth (Jun 14, 2013)

I don't have pictures, but I was having a similar problem with the yellowing leaves in my paphs and phrags. I fertilize with KLite, RO water, and something called Thrive Alive B-1 but not on a regular basis. I read from one of Stone' s posts about adding Amonium Nitrate, and so I added a small amount per plant, and because it takes a couple of months to work and I wasn't patient, I also added Epson salts but only one time. Also Slipperking said that if you aren't fertilizing regularly you are starving your plants to death. Since then I have tried to be very rigorous about fertilizing every Monday with Klite and the B-1 (about 150 on my TDS meter). My paphs and phrags have greened right up along with the other orchids and houseplants that I have. I think what I was doing was watering to much with the RO water and flushing out all of the nutrients. I have also seen some good growth on the plants. I do attribute some of the green up to the Amonium Nitrate, but I am sure all the changes have contributed. I love all the information that I get on this forum!!!


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## The Mutant (Jun 14, 2013)

Bjorn said:


> Should be ok, I have done that in the past. Just do not exaggerate the amounts. Try to mix stock solutions of the ingredients and use those to add to the irrigation water. K-lite first, then epsom salt. Do not mix the stock solutions as this will most probably cause precipitation. However if you use K-lite, epsom salt should hardly be necessary?


I also thought I wouldn't have to add epsom salt when using K-lite, but if people says it could help green my poor babies up, then I'm all for it. I won't mix the stocks, I'll mix it in the water instead.


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## Rick (Jun 14, 2013)

Are you able to check pH yet.

Those substrates look heavily loppsided on sphagnum moss, and pH may have dropped very low. If that's the case, then no amount of food of any kind will go into the plant.


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## The Mutant (Jun 14, 2013)

Rick said:


> Are you able to check pH yet.
> 
> Those substrates look heavily loppsided on sphagnum moss, and pH may have dropped very low. If that's the case, then no amount of food of any kind will go into the plant.


About 1/4 of the substrat is sphagnum. I have sphagnum on top to encourage and protect new root growthh. I don't have a pH meter yet, it's on my list though.


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## Rick (Jun 14, 2013)

I've only tried this once so I'm not making any proclamations on effectiveness, but I did get a sample of ammonium magnesium phosphate (MagAmp or struvite under some names).

I applied once to my lightest paphs which happen to be roths and sanderianums almost a month ago. All my other multi species are much darker. The stuff is dificult to disolve and should be acidified to melt it. So not sure how much actually got into the pots, but pretty sure some of the finely ground powder made it into the pots, and maybe to slow release like in a top dress.

They actually seemed to get lighter in the week following application, so I applied heavier doses than usual of MgSO4 (about 1/16 tsp per gallon) every 2-3 days over the subsequent weeks, and they are definitely greener now, but still lighter than other multi's. 

At this point Mag sulfate with kelp seems to be better for me at greening things up. The nitrogen in kelp is diverse (ammonia and ammino acids) so maybe that makes up for the primary nitrate in K lite.


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## Rick (Jun 14, 2013)

If we want to play the environment story, 

roths come from over serpentine or "ultramorphic or ultrabasic" geology. The composition of that rock is primarily magnesium hydroxide silicates, and is not only low in K but low in Ca. (It's also notoriously high in Ni but that is generally a toxic metal).

Looking at leaf tissue data for plant species found over serpentine, they do not show more Ca than Mg in there tissues, but have ratios similar to typical limestone species.

Maybe that makes them super Ca scavengers (like epiphytes in general are super K scavengers) so excess Ca can cause symptoms of Mg deficiency.??

Also limestone varies dramatically in the ratio of Ca/Mg So I wouldn't be surprised if species prefering dolomite to high Ca limestone would like additional Mg.


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## Stone (Jun 15, 2013)

Mutant, I would consider repotting in bark/charcoal and doing away with the moss or maybe including a very small amount in your mix. You may find it easier to manage the plants in this type of mix. Then you can begin to feed them with some 50/50 nitrate/ammonium and/or urea type fertilizer once they are stablized in the new mix. And use some dolomite from time to time. (the more urea/ammonium, the more dolomite/limestone). Also go easy on the Magnesium. I don't think its the cause of the yellow leaves in your case. I would also consider a light foliar spray with a good quality Urea to get some color (N) back into the leaves and not so much pot feeding until the roots are growing well. Good luck!

Just re-reading your post you mentioned you repotted a month ago and they have good roots. This tells my they are definitly not short of Calcium but the ARE short of N. As Klite has plenty of N as Nitrate, it could mean that the plants are not converting the nitrate into useable ammonium. Roth has mentioned in the past that this could be due to a lack of Mo. Raising the pH of your medium will often overcome a Mo deficiency without adding more. So check the pH of your medium or repot without the sphag? Or.....drastically reduce the nitrate and increase the ammonium will give you the same results.


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## Bjorn (Jun 15, 2013)

Mutant:Listen to Mikes advice and get rid of that sphagnum. It just keeps things too wet. I never use it, except sometimes in connection with phrags but then on a very limited scale. Living in Sweden, you probably have the possibility to get out in the woods - or a park etc and find some moss. Look for a springy texture and make a mix like that of Lance Birk, ie 8parts bark, 2parts(compressed) moss cut in pieces. I use scissors for that so that it eventually end up as strands of perhaps 2cm to an inch, and finally one part of sand. Find a playground and take some sand from that. Mix well and moisten. You get a quite springy compost that may have to be packed a bit into the pot but it last for years. Personally, I tend to add gravel and perhaps limestone to the mix as well. With bigger plants it is good to have some weight at the base.
Rick: You touch into an enigma that has puzzled me for quite long. Many reports claim that paphs do not grow into the baserock and that the geology in many cases is more or less insignificant. Roth is supposed to be one such. Others like lithophytes obviously are exposed to the geology, my own experience using marble chips growing medium indicates that eg vietnamense tolerates limestone well, but roth not. The effect is stunted rootgrowth on else healthy plants(that does not grow much but looks ok). Even if marble is not ultrabasic, it has a bit of the same high pH and I would thus not expect that just altering to Mg minerals makes such a difference. Since I have plenty of roth seedlings and access to olivine grits( olivine is a magnesium silicate with some iron, one of the prime minerals of ultrabasic rocks, closely related to serpentine) I will do some tests. But that will be future when my roth flasks are ready for potting. However, since lots of people have success growing roth in more acid environments, Idoubt that this is the solution;


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## Paphman910 (Jun 15, 2013)

Check the water quality with the city and found out the pH. 

You can find pH test kits at aquarium shops.

My pH is around 6.8 and the water TDS is about 28PPM.


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## TyroneGenade (Jun 15, 2013)

The green leaf veins and pale leaves suggest magnesium deficiency to me.

Too much light is a possible reason... To test this give them some magnesium (epson salts) and if they don't get green then dim the lights a bit and see if the plants respond.

The plants are clearly growing so I don't think nitrogen is the issue.


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## The Mutant (Jun 15, 2013)

Stone said:


> Mutant, I would consider repotting in bark/charcoal and doing away with the moss or maybe including a very small amount in your mix. You may find it easier to manage the plants in this type of mix. Then you can begin to feed them with some 50/50 nitrate/ammonium and/or urea type fertilizer once they are stablized in the new mix. And use some dolomite from time to time. (the more urea/ammonium, the more dolomite/limestone). Also go easy on the Magnesium. I don't think its the cause of the yellow leaves in your case. I would also consider a light foliar spray with a good quality Urea to get some color (N) back into the leaves and not so much pot feeding until the roots are growing well. Good luck!
> 
> Just re-reading your post you mentioned you repotted a month ago and they have good roots. This tells my they are definitly not short of Calcium but the ARE short of N. As Klite has plenty of N as Nitrate, it could mean that the plants are not converting the nitrate into useable ammonium. Roth has mentioned in the past that this could be due to a lack of Mo. Raising the pH of your medium will often overcome a Mo deficiency without adding more. So check the pH of your medium or repot without the sphag? Or.....drastically reduce the nitrate and increase the ammonium will give you the same results.


I add the sphag because it means I don't have to water them so often, and since I just repotted many of them, I don't want to disturb them any more than necessary. So for me, they get easier to care for with the sphag, but if it's unhealthy for them, I need to get rid of it.

Do I really have to add charcoal? It's not something that's easily available here in Sweden, unless you want to use for barbeque. Wouldn't leca work as well?

Reduce the nitrate and increase the ammonium? I can get ammonium at the local shop, but how much to 2 liters of water? And how do I reduce the nitrate? It's in the fertilizer? 

Now, I'm even more confused than before...



Bjorn said:


> Mutant:Listen to Mikes advice and get rid of that sphagnum. It just keeps things too wet. I never use it, except sometimes in connection with phrags but then on a very limited scale. Living in Sweden, you probably have the possibility to get out in the woods - or a park etc and find some moss. Look for a springy texture and make a mix like that of Lance Birk, ie 8parts bark, 2parts(compressed) moss cut in pieces. I use scissors for that so that it eventually end up as strands of perhaps 2cm to an inch, and finally one part of sand. Find a playground and take some sand from that. Mix well and moisten. You get a quite springy compost that may have to be packed a bit into the pot but it last for years. Personally, I tend to add gravel and perhaps limestone to the mix as well. With bigger plants it is good to have some weight at the base.
> Rick: You touch into an enigma that has puzzled me for quite long. Many reports claim that paphs do not grow into the baserock and that the geology in many cases is more or less insignificant. Roth is supposed to be one such. Others like lithophytes obviously are exposed to the geology, my own experience using marble chips growing medium indicates that eg vietnamense tolerates limestone well, but roth not. The effect is stunted rootgrowth on else healthy plants(that does not grow much but looks ok). Even if marble is not ultrabasic, it has a bit of the same high pH and I would thus not expect that just altering to Mg minerals makes such a difference. Since I have plenty of roth seedlings and access to olivine grits( olivine is a magnesium silicate with some iron, one of the prime minerals of ultrabasic rocks, closely related to serpentine) I will do some tests. But that will be future when my roth flasks are ready for potting. However, since lots of people have success growing roth in more acid environments, Idoubt that this is the solution;


As I wrote in the previous post, I use it so that I don't have to water too often (if it's sunny and with my fans on, they dry up in a day or two...). Your substrate suggestion doesn't sound half bad though. I'll think about it and see what I'll do. The ones that I repotted recently, will stay in their pots until I'm done testing to add the epsom salts. 



Paphman910 said:


> Check the water quality with the city and found out the pH.
> 
> You can find pH test kits at aquarium shops.
> 
> My pH is around 6.8 and the water TDS is about 28PPM.


Now I have access to the documents I couldn't check yesterday. This is the water quality in my municipal:

dH:2.6-2.6 (soft water in other words)
pH: 7.9-8.6
Conductivity: 15-16 mS/m (which I think is about 150 PPM, or?)

I know where to get a pH meter, but I need to save some money first. This is not only killing the plants, but me too. :sob: 



TyroneGenade said:


> The green leaf veins and pale leaves suggest magnesium deficiency to me.
> 
> Too much light is a possible reason... To test this give them some magnesium (epson salts) and if they don't get green then dim the lights a bit and see if the plants respond.
> 
> The plants are clearly growing so I don't think nitrogen is the issue.


Okay, I've started to give them some epsom salts. If this doesn't work, then I'll try what Mike and Bjorn have suggested. Adding the epsom salts is the easiest thing to do, so that's why I'm starting with it.


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## Paphman910 (Jun 15, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> ....
> 
> Now I have access to the documents I couldn't check yesterday. This is the water quality in my municipal:
> 
> ...



Your water is alkaline. I bet using 25-10-10 will help as it will bring down the pH as it is meant for acidic plants.


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## The Mutant (Jun 15, 2013)

Oh, about the sphagnum, I forgot to add one very important thing: most of my Paphs have NOT had any sphagnum in the mix until when I repotted them recently ('Starship' is one of them). Some of them are showing the same signs as the multis, others seem not to be suffering from any deficiencies yet, so I don't know if the sphagnum is the guilty one, or if it'll turn out to worsen the problem. 

Drat, I gave the wrong amount of sphagnum before. I use four parts bark, one part sphagnum and one part perlite. There, now I got it right!  



Paphman910 said:


> Your water is alkaline. I bet using 25-10-10 will help as it will bring down the pH as it is meant for acidic plants.


I probably would, but unfortunately, I can't get any fertilizer with those numbers here in Sweden. I've looked and found nothing and I can't order from the U.S. either, I tried.


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## SlipperFan (Jun 15, 2013)

You tried our very own FirstRay's Orchids???


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## The Mutant (Jun 15, 2013)

SlipperFan said:


> You tried our very own FirstRay's Orchids???


He doesn't seem to have any 25-10-10 fertilizer?


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## SlipperFan (Jun 15, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> He doesn't seem to have any 25-10-10 fertilizer?



Ask him -- Ray's a smart and helpful guy!


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## The Mutant (Jun 15, 2013)

SlipperFan said:


> Ask him -- Ray's a smart and helpful guy!


Okay.


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## Rick (Jun 15, 2013)

Paphman910 said:


> Your water is alkaline. I bet using 25-10-10 will help as it will bring down the pH as it is meant for acidic plants.



A high pH is not indicative of high alkalinity in soft low conductance water. So using the higher rates of N (especially if lopsided to ammonia and urea) will definitely crash the pH.

Recent article by Wang with orchids in moss. Incoming pH of water feed was adjusted up with NaOH, but pot pH dropped to <4.0 in short notice with heavy feedings of a fert with plenty of urea/ammonia.

That listed 8+ pH can drop with a sneeze given the softness of this water. So I would be cautious about increasing N alot without a pH meter handy.


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## Rick (Jun 15, 2013)

http://www.firetailorchids.com.au/_pdfs/poole_and_seeley.pdf

I posted this one on a different thread, but I urge all to read the section on Cattleya with the push/pull of N and Mg.


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## Rick (Jun 15, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> dH:2.6-2.6 (soft water in other words)
> pH: 7.9-8.6
> Conductivity: 15-16 mS/m (which I think is about 150 PPM, or?)
> 
> ...



150uS/cm is a TDS of more like 75. This is a nice soft low TDS water.

What is the rate of epsom salt application. Don't need to get to crazy on this either.


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## The Mutant (Jun 15, 2013)

Rick said:


> A high pH is not indicative of high alkalinity in soft low conductance water. So using the higher rates of N (especially if lopsided to ammonia and urea) will definitely crash the pH.
> 
> Recent article by Wang with orchids in moss. Incoming pH of water feed was adjusted up with NaOH, but pot pH dropped to <4.0 in short notice with heavy feedings of a fert with plenty of urea/ammonia.
> 
> That listed 8+ pH can drop with a sneeze given the softness of this water. So I would be cautious about increasing N alot without a pH meter handy.





Rick said:


> 150uS/cm is a TDS of more like 75. This is a nice soft low TDS water.
> 
> What is the rate of epsom salt application. Don't need to get to crazy on this either.


Thanks for correcting the TDS Rick! I've no idea how to calculate that (I realized after posting my "answer").

Someone, don't remember whom, suggested 1tsp/gallon, less than 2ml/2liters of water. Is this okay?

Okay, I'll order the pH meter so I can check everything, and the TDS meter too. I think they might be necessary to be able to fix this, since otherwise you guys can only speculate what happens in the pots with the pH levels, and the TDS too.

Thanks for all the help so far, even if it's contradictory at times!


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## Rick (Jun 15, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> Thanks for correcting the TDS Rick! I've no idea how to calculate that (I realized after posting my "answer").
> 
> Someone, don't remember whom, suggested 1tsp/gallon, less than 2ml/2liters of water. Is this okay?
> 
> ...



TDS is (very) roughly 1/2 of the conductivity in uS/cm. So to convert from mS/meter to uS/cm multiply it by 10.

A tsp/gal is probably a good jump start, but for longer term you'll probably crank down to 1/8 tsp/gal if you are going to apply weekly or every other week.


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## The Mutant (Jun 15, 2013)

Rick said:


> TDS is (very) roughly 1/2 of the conductivity in uS/cm. So to convert from mS/meter to uS/cm multiply it by 10.
> 
> A tsp/gal is probably a good jump start, but for longer term you'll probably crank down to 1/8 tsp/gal if you are going to apply weekly or every other week.


Okay, thanks for helping out. Even I can calculate 1/2 of the conductivity. 

I'll jot that down so I won't overfeed them, it would be very ironic if it turns out it's a Mg deficiency and I end up overdosing them with the salvation instead.


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## busypotter (Jun 15, 2013)

I would feed them Garden lime and epson salts water. Mine turned bright yellow I turned it around with lime.


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## ALToronto (Jun 15, 2013)

Paphman910 said:


> Check the water quality with the city and found out the pH.
> 
> You can find pH test kits at aquarium shops.
> 
> My pH is around 6.8 and the water TDS is about 28PPM.



Wow! That's like RO water out of the tap.


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## The Mutant (Jun 15, 2013)

busypotter said:


> I would feed them Garden lime and epson salts water. Mine turned bright yellow I turned it around with lime.


Lime? Hahaha! I thought you meant the fruit! :rollhappy: Oh, God, my internal translator has taken a leave of absence I think.

But why on earth would they suffer from calcium and Mg deficiency when they've been fed with K-lite? Something must've been disrupting their intake of it if that's the case... Chemistry! Is all I have to say about that...


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## Trithor (Jun 15, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> The green leaf veins and pale leaves suggest magnesium deficiency to me.
> 
> Too much light is a possible reason... To test this give them some magnesium (epson salts) and if they don't get green then dim the lights a bit and see if the plants respond.
> 
> The plants are clearly growing so I don't think nitrogen is the issue.



In my experience, the only things that respond to dimming the lights are, teenagers, moths and bats!


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## Trithor (Jun 15, 2013)

To be honest, I think this has all become very technical, I doubt that the problems are all that great. I would hesitate to embark on a huge biochem crusade. Most problems are corrected by checking potting mix (4 parts bak, sphagnum and perlite does not sound bad, having said that I might be tempted to loose the surface dressing of sphagnum) water, ( the council water does not seem bad, perhaps a bit basic, so perhaps a slight correction to a pH of around 6.5 might be appropriate. Lighting, most paphs (without getting too technical) do fairly well with light conditions in most well lit rooms, and enjoy an east window if available, good humidity, gentle movement of air and then a bit of food. Many threads point out that a lot of orchids do well with no feeding other than what they get in their water. I have often found that if I encounter problems, that reverting to plain water for a month or two will generally see a general improvement (which further emphasizes the dilemma of wether to feed or not, and if to feed, then how much?). I would only then start to fiddle with chemicals. I would start with a dilute organic such as kelp and then start with the inorganics. I am a bit concerned that Mutant is changing too many things too quickly. ( sorry, that is a carpenter talking, not a scientist, I just believe a safe solution is one in moderation)


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## Paphman910 (Jun 15, 2013)

Trithor said:


> To be honest, I think this has all become very technical, I doubt that the problems are all that great. I would hesitate to embark on a huge biochem crusade. Most problems are corrected by checking potting mix (4 parts bak, sphagnum and perlite does not sound bad, having said that I might be tempted to loose the surface dressing of sphagnum) water, ( the council water does not seem bad, perhaps a bit basic, so perhaps a slight correction to a pH of around 6.5 might be appropriate. Lighting, most paphs (without getting too technical) do fairly well with light conditions in most well lit rooms, and enjoy an east window if available, good humidity, gentle movement of air and then a bit of food. Many threads point out that a lot of orchids do well with no feeding other than what they get in their water. I have often found that if I encounter problems, that reverting to plain water for a month or two will generally see a general improvement (which further emphasizes the dilemma of wether to feed or not, and if to feed, then how much?). I would only then start to fiddle with chemicals. I would start with a dilute organic such as kelp and then start with the inorganics. I am a bit concerned that Mutant is changing too many things too quickly. ( sorry, that is a carpenter talking, not a scientist, I just believe a safe solution is one in moderation)



I totally agree! KISS (Keep it simple stupid) I use my regular fertilizer of 25-10-10, 20-20-20 and 10-52-10 and have not used 'special fertilizer' and they still grow well. I think water quality is detrimental to the health of orchids in general! If you can't drink the tap water then your orchids will probably not like it either!


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## gonewild (Jun 15, 2013)

Trithor said:


> In my experience, the only things that respond to dimming the lights are, teenagers, moths and bats!



The plants in question are teenagers.


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## The Mutant (Jun 15, 2013)

Trithor said:


> To be honest, I think this has all become very technical, I doubt that the problems are all that great. I would hesitate to embark on a huge biochem crusade. Most problems are corrected by checking potting mix (4 parts bak, sphagnum and perlite does not sound bad, having said that I might be tempted to loose the surface dressing of sphagnum) water, ( the council water does not seem bad, perhaps a bit basic, so perhaps a slight correction to a pH of around 6.5 might be appropriate. Lighting, most paphs (without getting too technical) do fairly well with light conditions in most well lit rooms, and enjoy an east window if available, good humidity, gentle movement of air and then a bit of food. Many threads point out that a lot of orchids do well with no feeding other than what they get in their water. I have often found that if I encounter problems, that reverting to plain water for a month or two will generally see a general improvement (which further emphasizes the dilemma of wether to feed or not, and if to feed, then how much?). I would only then start to fiddle with chemicals. I would start with a dilute organic such as kelp and then start with the inorganics. I am a bit concerned that Mutant is changing too many things too quickly. ( sorry, that is a carpenter talking, not a scientist, I just believe a safe solution is one in moderation)


I did flush the pots and only give them tap water for about a month I think, because I thought I had given too concentrated doses of fertilizer. The leaf death did slow down then, but that could've been caused by too much fertilizer, so the results are inconclusive. The best would be if I could collect rain water, but that's not possible. I do have access to RO water now, so I thought 50/50 tap and RO should get pretty close to rain water.

So I should only use tap water for a month or two? The more different suggestions I get, the more confused I get... :crazy:

Won't they become even more starved than they already are? 

Oh, and those that have been repotted, have all only gotten plain water and seaweed extract for about a month. They still look too yellow, like 'Starship' for example.

I have the sphagnum as topdressing, to prevent any new root tips to dry out, and to try and keep the moisture a bit more even in the pots. Otherwise, the substrate could be wet at the bottom and bone dry at the top (just a bit exaggerated :wink: ).



Paphman910 said:


> I totally agree! KISS (Keep it simple stupid) I use my regular fertilizer of 25-10-10, 20-20-20 and 10-52-10 and have not used 'special fertilizer' and they still grow well. I think water quality is detrimental to the health of orchids in general! If you can't drink the tap water then your orchids will probably not like it either!


I need some 25-10-10, then I'm golden.  I can't switch between something that I don't have.


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## dodidoki (Jun 15, 2013)

I think these are bad news....I don't know what the problem is, I can just give you any advice, how I grow mine roths, and they are growing very fine ( see attached pics).

First: I grow ALL of my plants in semitransparent pot. So I can see their root system and I can recognize any promlem as soosn as possible, not too late.

Second: I grow my paphs just under arteficial light, 30-40 cm from T8 special lilac lightening Fluora tubes , air movement is strong, all of leaves are moving in the "wind" everytime.

Third: I keep them in high humidity, always aronud 80 %.

Fourth: I keep them in Akadama+bark+ clay ballets mix, 1:1:1 ratio, I always desinfect it before potting, and one week after potting with Amistar fungicide.

Fifth: I use only RO or rain water, under 20 ppm, ( between 5-20 ppm), and I give my plants only K-lite fertilizer, I set water to 100 ppm total from RO water.


I always was very happy in the past if I saw a new root. Nowadays I harly deal with roots, they are coming from everywhere, on top, on bottom and pots are full of fresh, living roots, too.





Uploaded with ImageShack.us





Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## papheteer (Jun 15, 2013)

Paphman910 said:


> I totally agree! KISS (Keep it simple stupid) I use my regular fertilizer of 25-10-10, 20-20-20 and 10-52-10 and have not used 'special fertilizer' and they still grow well. I think water quality is detrimental to the health of orchids in general! If you can't drink the tap water then your orchids will probably not like it either!



I agree 100% with Paphman and Trithor! I like the KISS method. Last year started trying to complicate stuff. Bought an RO system, k-lite and started putting oyster shells. At first i saw improvements. Then suddenly all my plants showed leaf bleaching. The parvis were affected the most. Some of the leaves turned white!!! Then i followed the advice of some good friends and went back to using tap water (tds 190 ph 7.7) and 25-10-10 fertilizer with some ammonium and urea. Now after 3 months most have greened up and growing better than ever. 

I'm not saying that all those things are bad. I still believe that low-k is the way to go. But it's the nitrate that gave me problems. I wish they would create a k-lite with some ammoniacal and urea N. 

After all these, I learned a few things. Take all the advice your read here with a grain of salt. If something works then don't change it. And most importantly just because one thing works for someone, that doesn't mean it will always work for you and your conditions. 

The scientist in me loves reading all the posts here. But I'll leave the experimenting to the real scientists!


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## The Mutant (Jun 15, 2013)

papheteer said:


> I agree 100% with Paphman and Trithor! I like the KISS method. Last year started trying to complicate stuff. Bought an RO system, k-lite and started putting oyster shells. At first i saw improvements. Then suddenly all my plants showed leaf bleaching. The parvis were affected the most. Some of the leaves turned white!!! Then i followed the advice of some good friends and went back to using tap water (tds 190 ph 7.7) and 25-10-10 fertilizer with some ammonium and urea. Now after 3 months most have greened up and growing better than ever.
> 
> I'm not saying that all those things are bad. I still believe that low-k is the way to go. But it's the nitrate that gave me problems. I wish they would create a k-lite with some ammoniacal and urea N.
> 
> ...


It seems to be a problem here too... I hope I'll be able to fix this issue, 'cause I really want my multis (and the rest) to grow as well as they can, in my windowsill conditions. I just repotted the acclaimed 'MM' x self roth, and it had a very nice root system, so the roots are not the issue on at least two of the roths. 

I've only had Paphs for a year, so I still haven't really found what works for me and my conditions, and I'm also new to Phals, in the way that I've never cared for them as I have this past year. I do know that many people use rain water though to water their orchids, and since I can't collect it, I though that 50/50 RO and tap water could act as replacement.

I just had to put your best suggestion in bold marking.  Best advice so far! :rollhappy:


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## dodidoki (Jun 15, 2013)

Plant whitening can point on Mg deficiency! 

There is an important thing what we have to keep always in mind: RATIOS!

I see this on my father's phalas: they gets traditional fertilizer, but with tap water. It conains many Mg and Ca, hardness is cc. 25 german degree here!!!
TDS of tap water is 270ppm here! So there is not secondary Ca or Mg deficiency here due to tap water.

I always used soft water with traditional fertilizer, many of my plants died within a certain time. Now I use K-lite, but I use it with adding Ca and Mg, too, improvement is unbelivable.


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## papheteer (Jun 15, 2013)

Oh yeah and I use seaweed extracts. Kelpmax from ray and general hydroponics bio weed. About 5ml per gallon of water. I sometimes use calcium nitrate as well at 1/4 tsp/gallon. 

I personally think your plants need nitrogen in a different form. So as many have said before try to know about your water and add some ammoniacal and urea to your feed. I bet you after 2-3 months you will see vast improvements.


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## papheteer (Jun 15, 2013)

dodidoki said:


> Plant whitening can point on Mg deficiency!
> 
> There is an important thing what we have to keep always in mind: RATIOS!
> 
> ...




Yeah magnesium deficiency can cause pale leaves. So i tried supplementing with magnesium first. Nothing happened. When I started feeding with the 25-10-10, that's when my plants greened up. My tap has 35 ppm Ca and 9 ppm Mg. 
As i have said, what works for me may not work for someone else. It pays to know your water quality.


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## The Mutant (Jun 15, 2013)

papheteer said:


> Yeah magnesium can cause pale leaves. So i tried supplementing with magnesium first. Nothing happened. When I started feeding with the 25-10-10, that's when my plants greened up. My tap has 35 ppm Ca and 9 ppm Mg.
> As i have said, what works for me may not work for someone else. It pays to know your water quality.


This is what I'm doing now. If it doesn't work, I'll try what you did. That's the plan at least.

I wrote about the water quality earlier in the thread:

dH:2.6-2.8 (soft water in other words)
pH: 7.9-8.6
Conductivity: 15-16 mS/m (which, according to Rick, roughly is about 75 ppm)


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## papheteer (Jun 15, 2013)

Your water is ok. I'd use it from tap. Try supplementing with magnesium. If u don't see any improvement try a fertilizer with some ammonium and urea. That would also bring down the ph a bit. Don't use more than 1/4 tsp/gallon every feeding. And yes seaweed is always good!


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## gonewild (Jun 15, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> Almost all have roots, especially 'Starship', it had an impressive root system when I repotted it a month ago. 'Oriental Red' x 'MM' has one viable root that I can see without digging in the pot, plus it has a new root growing. The acclaimed 'MM' x self, I don't know. It's time to repot it soon, so then I'll see what the roots look like. 'Jim Krull' x 'CC' has no viable roots or new roots that I can see, unfortunately.



Only the first plant looks excessively yellow.
Some of the original photos the leaves look too green and that is why I told you about comparing photos.
Dark green leaves are not always better than light green.

The pale color is most likely ONLY due to the bright light.
I'm not seeing a nutrient deficiency that would be caused by the fertilizer you have been using. It looks like the plants have not been able to use the nutrients correctly because of two things.... poor roots and too much light.

With high light intensity the leaf temperature overheats and the plant is not able to use the nutrients correctly.

I think diagnosing the problem as a mineral shortage that can be corrected by a fertilizer formula change is not correct.

In reality what your are seeing is the "die off" problem that is being contributed to excess potassium.


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## The Mutant (Jun 15, 2013)

papheteer said:


> Your water is ok. I'd use it from tap. Try supplementing with magnesium. If u don't see any improvement try a fertilizer with some ammonium and urea. That would also bring down the ph a bit. Don't use more than 1/4 tsp/gallon every feeding. And yes seaweed is always good!


That's the plan. 

I always use seaweed extract to the Paphs. The Phals got so many roots, I had to stop giving it to them.



gonewild said:


> Only the first plant looks excessively yellow.
> Some of the original photos the leaves look too green and that is why I told you about comparing photos.
> Dark green leaves are not always better than light green.
> 
> ...


But the most yellow roth is the one with the best root system too, so it seems weird.  But, the T5 was too close to the plants, which is why I raised it, so I do believe it has contributed to the problem. 

So despite the fact that I've used K-lite for a year, they still suffer from excess K?


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## eggshells (Jun 15, 2013)

gonewild said:


> Only the first plant looks excessively yellow.
> Some of the original photos the leaves look too green and that is why I told you about comparing photos.
> Dark green leaves are not always better than light green.
> 
> ...



Actually, Stone answered you question/statement on this thread

The pictures that mutant posted is in fact paler compared to the wild rothschildianum.












That is also true in most in-situ photos that the plants are green in colour. Not pale yellow. 

So as Stone have stated, you should at least aim for that colour more or less.



gonewild said:


> In reality what your are seeing is the "die off" problem that is being contributed to excess potassium.



She was already using K-lite... How much more pottasium do you suggest that she reduce?


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## Rick (Jun 15, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> That's the plan.
> 
> The Phals got so many roots, I had to stop giving it to them.



You can have too many roots??


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## Rick (Jun 15, 2013)

Ok 

I was looking into why plants may not effectively utilize nitrate. 

The same ratio of nitrate to ammonical N in K lite is the same as for the old MSU (which seemingly supplied enough N in the past for some). The most significant exceptions seem to be when pH is run up, and buffering content (calcium carbonate and bicarbonate is high).

Apparently the nitrate reductase system (which depends on Fe and Mo to catalyze the reduction of nitrate) uses phosphate and/or sulfate. Both of which were reduced in K lite.

In particular phosphate is also bound up by calcium carbonate. Given the lime treatment used on Orchiata, and other buffering potential by high TDS waters and calcareous supplements, the likelihood of stalling out the nitrate reductase system in the plant is increased under low phosphate and sulfate availability.

Adding epsom salt will increase both Mg and SO4. If you can find some Mg-Phosphate could be even better. There's already more than enough Ca in this system, so I wouldn't go to bone meal. Iron phosphate (main ingredient in slug bait) could also be liberating.


Keep in mind that green in plants is due to presence of chlorophyll. It doesn't work (and make green) without Mg. A chlorophyll molecule is mostly carbon and hydrogen with 4 molecules of N and 1 of Mg.

Given that less than 1% of a plant is made up of NPK Ca Mg..... it doesn't take much to serve the plant. But we are doing lots of things with our chemical environment to impede the plants ability to take up these nutrients.


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## gonewild (Jun 15, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> But the most yellow roth is the one with the best root system too, so it seems weird.  But, the T5 was too close to the plants, which is why I raised it, so I do believe it has contributed to the problem.



Did they all have good roots when you got them?



> So despite the fact that I've used K-lite for a year, they still suffer from excess K?



It's possible. But I'm not saying that is the case what I'm saying is the symptoms look like it.

What caused the plants to loose roots? If the plants had good rots a yer ago and you fertilized them constantly with K-lite the roots were not lost due to a mineral deficiency.

You should suspect the old media as a possible cause for the problem.


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## gonewild (Jun 15, 2013)

eggshells said:


> Actually, Stone answered you question/statement on this thread
> 
> The pictures that mutant posted is in fact paler compared to the wild rothschildianum.



I don't see that the color in these two plants is much different. Consider that Mutant's picture color is off white balance towards too much yellow.












> That is also true in most in-situ photos that the plants are green in colour. Not pale yellow.



Most in-situ pictures are taken of the best specimens rather than sickly looking plants. And most orchids growing in the wild are growing in near ideal light levels and not fried under T5 lighting. If the wild plants were not in ideal light they probably would die off as seedlings.



> So as Stone have stated, you should at least aim for that colour more or less.



No disagreement with this idea. But you can not trust making color evaluations from photos taken in different color light spectrums. 
Mutant's photos color balance are not correct and they present the foliage more yellow than in reality.




> She was already using K-lite... How much more pottasium do you suggest that she reduce?



Not reducing Potassium in the fertilizer. I'm suggesting that it had accumulated in the media and was available to the plants in excess. The plants tissue may have been already loaded with high levels of K when she got them. 

Rather than looking at the leaf color to make the diagnosis I would look at the overall plant health and specifically root condition. Bright light combined with poor roots will produce plants like these.

Am I correct that her other plants are not showing the same symptoms?


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## Stone (Jun 16, 2013)

Trithor said:


> In my experience, the only things that respond to dimming the lights are, teenagers, moths and bats!



:rollhappy::rollhappy:


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## Stone (Jun 16, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> The green leaf veins and pale leaves suggest magnesium deficiency to me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Stone (Jun 16, 2013)

gonewild said:


> > The pale color is most likely ONLY due to the bright light.
> > I'm not seeing a nutrient deficiency that would be caused by the fertilizer you have been using. It looks like the plants have not been able to use the nutrients correctly because of two things.... poor roots and too much light.
> 
> 
> ...


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## eggshells (Jun 16, 2013)

gonewild said:


> I don't see that the color in these two plants is much different. Consider that Mutant's picture color is off white balance towards too much yellow.
> 
> 
> Most in-situ pictures are taken of the best specimens rather than sickly looking plants. And most orchids growing in the wild are growing in near ideal light levels and not fried under T5 lighting. If the wild plants were not in ideal light they probably would die off as seedlings.



She also got the plants on different times and not all at the same time. Let's say if she doesnt correct this now. That particular plant of hers could became more paler as time goes by.

Regarding the T5. I dont think that a plant that grows under T5HO bulb gets a higher light intensity than a plant growing in a cliff exposed to the sun. I actually grow my plants particularly the multiflorals under 4 x 4' of T5HO bulbs. 



gonewild said:


> No disagreement with this idea. But you can not trust making color evaluations from photos taken in different color light spectrums.
> Mutant's photos color balance are not correct and they present the foliage more yellow than in reality.



I understand you concern about the color balance. However she stated herself that its actually a pale yellow. I think we should trust her judgement on that as she probably knows what color yellow is. And even her photo shows that the discrepancy regarding color balance isnt that much. 



gonewild said:


> Am I correct that her other plants are not showing the same symptoms?



She have stated on other threads (My collection) that her paphs are pale at the moment and feeling depress. I am assuming most if not all her paphs are having this issue. Correct me if I'm wrong mutant.


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## The Mutant (Jun 16, 2013)

Rick said:


> Ok
> 
> I was looking into why plants may not effectively utilize nitrate.
> 
> ...


I can get my hands on magnesium phosphate (apparently it's used as a nutrient supplement for humans). Should I try this then instead of epsom salts? 



gonewild said:


> Did they all have good roots when you got them?
> 
> [...]
> 
> ...


Of the ones I know and remember, they had okay to decent root systems. The 'Oriental Red' x 'MM' had a good root system, the 'Jim Krull' x 'CC' didn't. The acclaimed roth 'MM' x self had a doable root system.

Why they lost roots? Probably a combination of the first two plants traveling here bare rooted from America, plus an inexperienced new Paph owner. I repotted all roths except 'Starship', since two of them were bare rooted, and the other one was from Popow, whom, I have experienced, usually over pot the Paphs.

I've never said that they've lost any roots due to mineral deficiency. 



gonewild said:


> I don't see that the color in these two plants is much different. Consider that Mutant's picture color is off white balance towards too much yellow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know how my picture looks like on your screen, but on mine, it's very close to how the colour appears IRL. This roth was much darker than the others when I got it, I think I might even have mentioned that it had such a dark green compared to the ones I had then. It has paled considerably, and stripes have started to appear on the lower leaves.

You can't say that it's an issue of colour balance in the photos, when I, the owner of said plants, say that they have paled and turned more yellow/brighter green compared to when I got them. The photos got me to realize that something was off, since they have lost the colour gradually and I hadn't realized how much paler they had gotten.

And if I compare my 'Oriental Red' x 'MM' to egshells sibling, mine is much much paler.

I don't say it's not a light issue, as I've said, I did keep the T5 too close to the plants, but I think there's more than that to it. 

Some of my other plants are showing the same symptoms, some don't seem to care at all. 

During the winter, many of them lost leaves, which I think I might have mentioned in some thread somewhere. And I thought it could be because I fed them too much fertilizer. Because of this, I flushed the pots for about a month, and the problem reduced. Now, many of them started to show the same signs, and I thought it could have to do with the media being too old, so I've repotted almost all of them (only two left). Some of the plants showing the symptoms, didn't have good root systems, some though did have good root systems, so it seems to depend on what species they are. My malipoense had terrific roots, but are also showing signs of this, whatever it is.

My Phals are also showing symptoms of some sort of lacking. I reacted that almost none of them started making any new leaves now during spring, so I started giving them some 5-5-5 fert, and they started producing leaves. They are not pale, but they don't show the same growth pattern they used to do. They, on the other hand, have massive root systems, and they flower. It's just the leaf production that seems to have decreased.



eggshells said:


> She also got the plants on different times and not all at the same time. Let's say if she doesnt correct this now. That particular plant of hers could became more paler as time goes by.
> 
> Regarding the T5. I dont think that a plant that grows under T5HO bulb gets a higher light intensity than a plant growing in a cliff exposed to the sun. I actually grow my plants particularly the multiflorals under 4 x 4' of T5HO bulbs.
> 
> ...


Yes, the seedling roth I've had for the longest is 'Starship', the second is the acclaimed 'MM' x self. 

I had my T5 too close to the plants, which was why my 'Jim Krull' x 'CC' got badly burnt. I didn't realize this until it got burnt, and someone pointed out that my MK also showed signs of too much light on the leaves closest to the T5. I raised the T5 about a month ago. But since the plants also have grown paler overall, this isn't the only issue I think.

Yes, please do.  They (the multis except the gardineri) are all paler than before.

Yes, some other show the same signs as these guys do, but I think the roths are the ones the most afflicted. But that could have to do with them needing more nutrition, right?


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## Rick (Jun 16, 2013)

More or different nutrition?

Roths come from areas notoriously poor in NPK and obviously grow great in the wild when not impacted by humans.

All my phals are just now kicking in with new leaves including one that I have indoors on a windowsill. That one gets fed a fraction of what the GH plants get too, and its doing better now than in the last 10 years I've had it.

I don't think your phals are having problems (nutrition related or otherwise).

If you want to try the Mg Phosphate figure up a dose of 2-3 ppm as Mg and give it a shot.


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## gonewild (Jun 16, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> You can't say that it's an issue of colour balance in the photos,



OK I won't say it again.


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## limuhead (Jun 16, 2013)

Interesting thread. I see differing opinions, mine is too close to your light source. If my plants were too close to the light source we would all be in trouble, I grow outside, so that would mean the earth is falling into the sun!
:sob:


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## orcoholic (Jun 16, 2013)

Sorry to be so late to the party, but it just looks like too much light to me. 

Before adding this and changing that, I would repot and then put them in a low light situation. If they don't recover, then I'd go on a nutrient deficiency quest. If they return to normal, give them less light.

You can test Ph with strips from an aquarium store. Not as accurate as a meter, but a lot less expensive and good enough. 

Rather than a TDS meter, get a Ec meter. Much better way to measure fertilizer concentration.


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## Rick (Jun 16, 2013)

orcoholic said:


> Rather than a TDS meter, get a Ec meter. Much better way to measure fertilizer concentration.



I agree. A TDS meter is really an Ec meter anyway. It just takes the Ec reading and converts it (via internally programed algorithm) into a TDS value.

That algorithm only works for a specific combination of cations and anions. So you will get different TDS values for different ionic (fertilizer) mixtures of the same overall concentration.

It's fine if you want to "calibrate" your particular fert to a given concentration, but the "TDS" values of your tap water or pour through waters may have little correlation to what you are feeding with.


2 grams per liter of NaCl and Na2SO4 have different conductivity values. So even though they are both 2000mg/L TDS, a TDS meter will say they are different.


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## Rick (Jun 16, 2013)

Stone said:


> TyroneGenade said:
> 
> 
> > The green leaf veins and pale leaves suggest magnesium deficiency to me.
> ...


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## Stone (Jun 16, 2013)

Rick said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > > Molybdenum deficiency also shows up as "nitrogen deficiency" , but Mo is in both formulations with the Mg (and Fe for that matter, and Fe and Mo are responsible for reducing nitrate to ammonia).
> ...


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## Rick (Jun 16, 2013)

Stone said:


> Because that is never the cause of chlorosis (that I know of)



The basic symptomology was basically described for outdoor crops.

These symptoms are really expressing for indoor under lights conditions in many cases. I'm beginning to wonder if there is something special about T5 spectra and water/fert uptake.

Mutant has been plagued with low humidity conditions all winter. Some of her early turnarounds were in enforced high humidity conditions in a tank.


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## The Mutant (Jun 17, 2013)

As I've said, I've raised the T5 so the light intensity has been reduced, and as I've also said, they've all been repotted recently, and I don't want to disturb them any more than necessary.

I'm waiting for a conductivity/pH meter and that's what I'll go for now that I've finally found one for a reasonable price. I don't want to try and find another meter since it isn't so straight forward as it might seem.

I'm grateful for all of the advice I've gotten and I'll try some of the things suggested. It's not only those under the T5 that are showing these symptoms, so it's not only a light issue.

The humidity levels are between 50-70%, all depending on the weather. I'm a windowsill grower, so the conditions won't be ideal. I have two humidifiers on 24/7 and they're preventing the humidity levels to plummet.


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## Rick (Jun 17, 2013)

Been doing some interesting reading on photosynthesis and inhibitions to photosynthesis.

For one, alkalinity (bicarbonate) is inhibitory to photosynthesis in more than one pathway. One pathway causes a restriction on the uptake of CO2 and another causes direct impediments in ATP production.

Also the synthesis of chlorophyl is a light requiring process that does not appear to use the same primary light frequencies as used by chlorophyll A or B. And this process also requires expending ATP.


Adding ammonia to the system is not neccesarily adding any N directly to the plant, but causing a reduction of alkalinity (pH) in the potting mix as bacteria convert it to nitrate, that not only directly produces CO2 but also converts bicarbonate in the potting mix to CO2.

Acidifying via phosphoric acid would drop bicarbonate, but also supply more phosphate for ATP production. A lot of phosphate "energy currency (ATP)" is expended for photosynthetic opperations when alkalinity is elevated and CO2 is restricted.


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## Ozpaph (Jun 17, 2013)

limuhead said:


> Interesting thread. I see differing opinions, mine is too close to your light source. If my plants were too close to the light source we would all be in trouble, I grow outside, so that would mean the earth is falling into the sun!
> :sob:



Oh no, the sky is falling!!!:rollhappy:


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## gonewild (Jun 17, 2013)

limuhead said:


> Interesting thread. I see differing opinions, mine is too close to your light source. If my plants were too close to the light source we would all be in trouble, I grow outside, so that would mean the earth is falling into the sun!
> :sob:



:rollhappy:

Or it means your Island is growing higher.


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## ehanes7612 (Jun 21, 2013)

One of the things about growing under lights that i found out the hard way ..for seedlings, they have a hard time adjusting to going from a GH envt to an art light envt. They really dont need much light..and its real easy to overburden them with the constant daily light from day start to day end. Adults can take the change much easier and in a lot of cases , seem to enjoy it. My monsoon temptations flourished under lights but are having a much harder time in the GH (but i live in seattle where i get no light for 3 months ..i dont think they appreciate any kind of dormancy)..i am thinking abou putting them back under lights in the fall.
I think Tom Kalina told me that paph seedlings do best with 150 to 200 fc for a 12 hour period. If i remember correctly thats about 18 inches from a 4 x2 t5 assembly. Another thing..multi's need consistency (esp roths) , everytime there is a significant change , they suffer for it and from my experience, it's cumulative. 

I knew a grower in Oregon (Bill Leonard) who was a phenomenal grower..every time he got a new plant he would quarantine it in the shadiest part of his greenhouse. He grew everything really well.

I grew everything under lights for several years..although leaves turned lighter green to yellow green as I grew them..they always seemed to bloom and grow well. I killed things off but within reason. Roots always seemed fine. I think my biggest mistake was growing paph multi's in CHC..but thats another story.
I am thinking about putting my multifloral seedlings back under lights in the fall..just so i can monitor them and keep their conditions more stable.I know this sounds like i am contradicting myself but with our lack of light for 3 months , i think it does them more harm to stay in the GH. But this time I will keep them at a much lower light level.


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## gonewild (Jun 21, 2013)

ehanes7612 said:


> But this time I will keep them at a much lower light level.



Try turning on half the lights for 3 hrs in the morning, then all the lights during mid day and then the las 3 hours with only half light.
This simulates the curve of the sunlight.


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## Ozpaph (Jun 21, 2013)

both great insights, thanks.


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## naoki (Jun 22, 2013)

150-200fc? That's tiny amount of light. I'm assuming this is for tiny seedlings right after deflasking (like within 3 months)? How strong was the light when you were seeing yellowing leaves under light? I have to do 100% artificial light, but I'm giving 800-1000fc (6500K T5 HO), 14h at least. I wonder if I'm wasting lots of energy. In the summer, I do need to reduce the light to mitigate heat issue, but they seem to be ok except for a couple species (but I don't have as much experience as you do). Tall P. lowii does get yellowish leaves when the leaves go close to T5 HO. P. hirsutissimum get a bit stressed in the summer, so I moved it under LED. Others seem to have healthy looking slightly yellow leaves. I haven't flowered multifloral under this setup, though. Those Blue-Red LED grow lights seem to make the new leaves really greenish. This is probably caused by not enough light, but it could be something to do with the frequency spectrum. Low-light orchids do seem to grow surprisingly well, and flower well under 28W LED covering 2x2'.

Is constant light really a burden? I would expect the opposite. I can see that long, strong light could be a burden for CAM (since photorespiration could overwhelm at the end of the day). But a long optimal strength light would be great for C3 plants (given that there is enough water). I would speculate that most plants under cultivation are PS-limited than nutrient-limited in many cases. Could the transition shock which you observe be from the change in humidity rather than light?


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## Rick (Jun 24, 2013)

naoki said:


> 150-200fc? In the summer, I do need to reduce the light to mitigate heat issue, but they seem to be ok except for a couple species (but I don't have as much experience as you do). Tall P. lowii does get yellowish leaves when the leaves go close to T5 HO. P. hirsutissimum get a bit stressed in the summer, so I moved it under LED.



Besides pH optimization for nutrients there are also optimum temperatures, and P utilization tends to favor temps lower than N and K.

Mike (Stone) presented on of those pH range charts. At least one fert company that has that chart also has the temp chart on their site.

I recently read an article speculating about why plants aren't black instead of green, and wasting a huge band of spectrum. One reason could be because they would cook if they were black??

Anyone consider the heat issue (besides the lumens issue)?. Most roths and sanderianums come from substantial elevation, and may not experience high leaf temperatures.


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## ehanes7612 (Jun 24, 2013)

naoki said:


> 150-200fc? That's tiny amount of light. I'm assuming this is for tiny seedlings right after deflasking (like within 3 months)? How strong was the light when you were seeing yellowing leaves under light? I have to do 100% artificial light, but I'm giving 800-1000fc (6500K T5 HO), 14h at least. I wonder if I'm wasting lots of energy. In the summer, I do need to reduce the light to mitigate heat issue, but they seem to be ok except for a couple species (but I don't have as much experience as you do). Tall P. lowii does get yellowish leaves when the leaves go close to T5 HO. P. hirsutissimum get a bit stressed in the summer, so I moved it under LED. Others seem to have healthy looking slightly yellow leaves. I haven't flowered multifloral under this setup, though. Those Blue-Red LED grow lights seem to make the new leaves really greenish. This is probably caused by not enough light, but it could be something to do with the frequency spectrum. Low-light orchids do seem to grow surprisingly well, and flower well under 28W LED covering 2x2'.
> 
> Is constant light really a burden? I would expect the opposite. I can see that long, strong light could be a burden for CAM (since photorespiration could overwhelm at the end of the day). But a long optimal strength light would be great for C3 plants (given that there is enough water). I would speculate that most plants under cultivation are PS-limited than nutrient-limited in many cases. Could the transition shock which you observe be from the change in humidity rather than light?



humidity didnt change..as far as the rest..my point is..giving plants high constant FC's when you are not sure about their nutritional, or water requirements is too risky... its better to err on the side of caution and grow your seedlings slowly meaning low light, unless you have it all figured out. 

In growing my adult plants, much of my problem was CHC..so perhaps it was not enough water, perhaps the roots couldnt properly uptake needed nutrients, who knows...i dont use CHC anymore..and plants are doing better


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## Cochlopetalum (Jun 27, 2013)

Your plants had nice leaf color this winter. The only thing that changed is the time of year. I turn off my lamps in the spring and hang sheer curtains for the summer. Otherwise I also have bleached and burned plants in my east window. You just need to turn off lamps and hang mosquito netting or similar and they will soon be normal.


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## Garr (Aug 8, 2013)

*Urea*

I'm afraid that I'm somewhat late to the game here. You were counselled, among many other suggestions, to try using urea. Prior to changing light intensity, day-length, substrate composition, fertilizer regime or anything else, I think that a somewhat more conclusive diagnosis would make sense. Without changing other factors, a foliar spray would, without any other variables in place point out a potential N deficiency...or not. A word of caution. Urea CO(NH2)2 or 46-0-0 is a very powerful N source. It takes only about 0.21 grams/liter to achieve a concentration of 100 ppm. Confusing the issue is that you can't double check your concentration after the fact with an EC meter as the solution is not conductive and will register 0.0 µS. Care needs to be exercised as a typical 1/2 tsp/gallon solution would yield a whopping 300 ppm solution. 

A light foliar spray at 100 ppm of urea repeated a couple of times a week will in fairly short order confirm if there is in fact a N deficiency as there will be little to no interaction with substrate chemistry to confuse the issue. Once this is established, you can then examine substrate pH, N ratios, micro nutrient deficiencies, light levels and other cultural factors which may be contributing to the yellowing.

I hope that this helps and would be very curious to know what has transpired since the last posts.


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## The Mutant (Sep 16, 2013)

A small update:

So, what have happened after my first post was made? Well, except me getting depressed and feeling like the worlds worst Paph owner, I tried to change _everything_.

* I raised the T5 (it's currently 18" above the Paphs, and I'm thinking about raising it some more).
* I reduced the hours it was on (as it wasn't necessary when the morning sun was shining through the windows). 
* I shaded my orchids from the sun (which I always do, but better to be clear about it).
* I changed fertilizer.

The result is that the roth that had turned almost yellow, Starship x self, is now almost back to the same green it had when I got it. Overall, they've all greened up and shown signs of better growth.

Since I changed so many things, it's hard to say if it was _only_ a light issue, or if it was something more. I'll start using k-lite again and see what happens. Hopefully it was only a light issue and nothing else. 

Anyway, thank you all for all of your many, MANY suggestions and tips. I thinks it's thanks to you that the victims seems to be restricted, so far, to only two Paphs; my smallest roth Kim Crull x Canadian Club, and my biggest philippinense var roebelenii.


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## Garr (Sep 16, 2013)

What fertilizer did you change to?


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## Ray (Sep 16, 2013)

About 8 weeks ago, I acquired about a dozen tigrinum primary hybrids (all the same cross, but I cannot recall it at the moment). They were given to me because they were very yellow and "not up-to-par" for the commercial grower. They were green and deep yellow, not "bleached out".

They are outdoors, receiving only indirect light as it passes through the greenhouse roof and front wall - plus back-scatter from the sky - and received one watering with K-Lite at 35 ppm N when I first got them. Since then, Mother Nature has handled all feeding and watering - i.e., lots of flushing with pretty pure water.

The plants are greening up quite well.


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## The Mutant (Sep 16, 2013)

Garr said:


> What fertilizer did you change to?


I've mostly used Blomstra for orchids and for regular indoor plants. Since I can't get my hand on ammonia/urea without some serious paperwork etc. (which I haven't had the energy to do, seeing as I've managed to bring myself to the brink of a burn out again), I figured this would have to suffice.



Ray said:


> About 8 weeks ago, I acquired about a dozen tigrinum primary hybrids (all the same cross, but I cannot recall it at the moment). They were given to me because they were very yellow and "not up-to-par" for the commercial grower. They were green and deep yellow, not "bleached out".
> 
> They are outdoors, receiving only indirect light as it passes through the greenhouse roof and front wall - plus back-scatter from the sky - and received one watering with K-Lite at 35 ppm N when I first got them. Since then, Mother Nature has handled all feeding and watering - i.e., lots of flushing with pretty pure water.
> 
> The plants are greening up quite well.


If I could have done that, it would have been a good choice.  Now I'll go full RO and K-lite and see how they respond. I'll update this thread again when/if I see any results (good or bad).


Again, thank you guys.


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