# Tokyo Orchid Nursery Roths



## paphioland (Mar 6, 2015)

cont from orchid inn list thread. If mods could move those posts would be great.

Here is roth 'Tarantula' DS 7.5, NS 39, PW 2.3


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## paphioland (Mar 6, 2015)

roth 'Raptor'


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## Justin (Mar 6, 2015)

Tarantula is clearly a top roth. I always felt it had more of an open-form effect because the petals are so long, but the dorsal and ventral are still very round. The contrast with the pouch is striking.

Here's a link to one of Lien's bloomings of roth Canadian Club I'm sure many have seen. 

http://www.rv-orchidworks.com/orchi...ph-rothschildianum-canadian-club-gm-joga.html


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## SlipperFan (Mar 6, 2015)

I agree, 'Tarantula!'


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## raymond (Mar 6, 2015)

very nice


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## emydura (Mar 6, 2015)

Yes, Tarantula is absolutely amazing. But I think you would really need to see it in person to fully appreciate the size of the flowers. 39 cm NS is astonishing, especially given the petals sweep down. Photos can never do that size justice.


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## AdamD (Mar 7, 2015)

I like the color and fullness of Raptor, the petal width is amazing! But the NS of Tarantula is to die for. I've not seen Tokyo Fantasy and I can't find anything on it. I've got to say, when it comes to roths, for me color and petal width come before NS and DW. Just my opinion. And in that regard I hold Raptor to a higher standard. 

That being said, I've never seen either in person, and basing an opinion off of pics is a far cry from the most informative way to form an opinion. It's like Fredclarkeara After Dark. When pics are all that were out there people went nuts. After seeing many in bloom, the luster and magic just don't translate well. 

Again, just my opinion.


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## Trithor (Mar 7, 2015)

Breathtaking!


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## paphioland (Mar 7, 2015)

AdamD said:


> I like the color and fullness of Raptor, the petal width is amazing! But the NS of Tarantula is to die for. I've not seen Tokyo Fantasy and I can't find anything on it. I've got to say, when it comes to roths, for me color and petal width come before NS and DW. Just my opinion. And in that regard I hold Raptor to a higher standard.
> 
> That being said, I've never seen either in person, and basing an opinion off of pics is a far cry from the most informative way to form an opinion. It's like Fredclarkeara After Dark. When pics are all that were out there people went nuts. After seeing many in bloom, the luster and magic just don't translate well.
> 
> Again, just my opinion.



They have the same petal width.


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## paphioland (Mar 7, 2015)

Raptor has inferior shape. Look at the slight hooding of the dorsal. Synsepal also slightly curves and pinches as well. There is also some recurvature that many roths do as it leaves the center at the inferior edge of petal. 

Tarantula has a clearer backround and a darker more saturated pouch. Much better synsepal, shape and stance. It is much larger in every dimension except petal width where they are the same. 

I am not putting Raptor down. It is a great clone. I own the clone. Just Tarantula and Tokyo Fantasy are better. Full disclosure I own those too.

Machan has seen these clones bloom many times and has an excellent talent for seeing quality. He states,

"I think our best rothschildianum was Tarantula" "I think Tarantula is still best flower of my life"

He also says Tokyo fantasy is second best.


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## paphioland (Mar 7, 2015)

roth 'Tokyo Fantasy'





NS 34, DW 6.5, PW 2.3


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## AdamD (Mar 7, 2015)

Here's a link to 'Titanic'

http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/InterOrShow/Hinuma/Hinuma03/photo/128.JPG


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## Ozpaph (Mar 7, 2015)

Im coming to 'paphioland' in roth flowering season!!!


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## emydura (Mar 7, 2015)

Ozpaph said:


> Im coming to 'paphioland' in roth flowering season!!!



Me too.

That 'Tokyo Fantasy' clone is incredible. I'd never heard of it until today. Based on the photos I agree that 'Tarantula' and "Tokyo Fantasy' are well ahead of the rest.


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## annab (Mar 7, 2015)

impressive,no matter for common mortals.
the only thing that I can do is admire so great beauty.
Anna


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## cattmad (Mar 7, 2015)

I've never seen Machan use 'Tokyo Fantasy' in breeding, what a beautiful plants it is though


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## Camellkc (Mar 7, 2015)

An incredible NS figure!


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## aquacorps (Mar 7, 2015)

Paphioland is a special place.


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## paphioland (Mar 7, 2015)

cattmad said:


> I've never seen Machan use 'Tokyo Fantasy' in breeding, what a beautiful plants it is though



He has. I have a few blooming size plants. They were some of his early second generation crosses.


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## paphioland (Mar 7, 2015)

aquacorps said:


> Paphioland is a special place.



LOL


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## paphioland (Mar 7, 2015)

You can tell what Machan thinks by price too. 
Machan sells divisions but price varies slightly by size of division. Equal sized nice divisions. Of course exchange rates affect as well. The clones relative cost I have never seen change for similar division size. Oh and by the way the awards obviously mean nothing to the price. Since the level and societies of the award don't match price. When they gain more awards the price really hasn't changed. 

Tarantula >Tokyo Fantasy>
Raptor, Perfection and titanic


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## paphioland (Mar 7, 2015)

Justin said:


> Tarantula is clearly a top roth. I always felt it had more of an open-form effect because the petals are so long, but the dorsal and ventral are still very round. The contrast with the pouch is striking.
> 
> Here's a link to one of Lien's bloomings of roth Canadian Club I'm sure many have seen.
> 
> http://www.rv-orchidworks.com/orchi...ph-rothschildianum-canadian-club-gm-joga.html



Canadian Club is a very nice roth and can do much more than that. Great acquisition. I have seen it bloomed in real life and in many others bloomed pictures. It has that yellowing at the top center of the pouch that comes through every bloom. Even though it is a flaw I kind of like it.


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## Justin (Mar 7, 2015)

paphioland said:


> Canadian Club is a very nice roth and can do much more than that. Great acquisition. I have seen it bloomed in real life and in many others bloomed pictures. It has that yellowing at the top center of the pouch that comes through every bloom. Even though it is a flaw I kind of like it.



when the first pictures of it came out from the JGP it was clear that MM x Val was going to set a new standard. Around the same time or earlier i think Perfection and Titanic were being shown.


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## Paul (Mar 7, 2015)

those roths are very nice and if someone gives me some division I would say "yes, with pleasure"
However, my (very) personnal feeling is that I prefer 'Mont Millais' even if it's smaller. I really love the more chocolate colours, than the red ones... Just my opinion, of course!


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## Fabrice (Mar 7, 2015)

What is incredible is that Tarantula is a wild collected plant if I remember well.

So, for a breeder like TON, the best roth. ever seen is yet an original plant.

Like Paul, I find Mont Millais is an incredible plant. Maybe smaller but the rest of the flower is really perfect in my eyes.

About Raptor, yes it's not perfect with some small defaults but I find they give too charm.
Too round, too large petals too big, etc..., it's not for me. At least not just that.


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## paphioland (Mar 7, 2015)

Fabrice said:


> What is incredible is that Tarantula is a wild collected plant if I remember well.
> 
> So, for a breeder like TON, the best roth. ever seen is yet an original plant.
> 
> ...



Taratula is MM x Val def not wild collected

Concerning MM. I and many others bloom roths as nice or nicer almost every month. MM is a relic. If you like it though, flowers that are pretty much indistinguishable from it are common and should be easy to find.


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## paphioland (Mar 7, 2015)

Paul said:


> those roths are very nice and if someone gives me some division I would say "yes, with pleasure"
> However, my (very) personnal feeling is that I prefer 'Mont Millais' even if it's smaller. I really love the more chocolate colours, than the red ones... Just my opinion, of course!



MM has some red tone. The color comes from MM and many of these modern roths have better color.


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## paphioland (Mar 7, 2015)

I think if we did an experiment and went into the OZ or TON when the roths were blooming and snuck MM in with the group almost no one would pick it out in the top group of roths. If you saw it you compared to modern roths you would realize it is inferior.


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## Felix (Mar 7, 2015)

Anything known about the ploidy of these superior plants?


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## Justin (Mar 7, 2015)

Agree the MM progeny have surpassed it in quality. It's still an excellent clone in its own right.


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## Fabrice (Mar 7, 2015)

Ok, my mistake for Tarantula... I confused.


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## Fabrice (Mar 7, 2015)

Don't agree about MM. But probably too because it's not just a roth. among others in my eyes but mainly an incredible piece of History. I don't understand how 
some breeders sold their MM plants because they had better in their next generation.


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## Fabrice (Mar 7, 2015)

And in my opinion, it's necessary too not always see flowers quality with standard judges but too with our own tastes. Often I agree with breeding selection and desired standard but not always. (Last OZ besseae generation is the best example for me. Where is the original besseae in this flower? Dissapeared! Looks like an hybrid. I dont' like that, even if I'm aware it's a fantastic selection work)


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## paphioland (Mar 7, 2015)

Fabrice said:


> And in my opinion, it's necessary too not always see flowers quality with standard judges but too with our own tastes. Often I agree with breeding selection and desired standard but not always. (Last OZ besseae generation is the best example for me. Where is the original besseae in this flower? Dissapeared! Looks like an hybrid. I dont' like that, even if I'm aware it's a fantastic selection work)



I agree. I am just saying that if you like MM there are many indistinguishable plants that bloom very frequently. You can get lots of MM equivalents. I can fool the best of the best with many clones that look like mm. I am just saying that no one could pick mm out of a 200 blooming new generation OZ roths or mm x self or val x mm or nancho x mm. It is near impossible because there will be many clones of its quality there. 

If you are interested in history thats another thing. Better make sure you get the "correct one" people have been peddling mmx self and commander offspring as MM for a long time. Lets say TON doesn't have the "correct" one or OZ didn't? What is better for history the true MM or the one that bred the future generations? I am not inferring anything. I don't think anyone truly knows what the true MM is or are some that are MM x self or commander x MM. Thats what I'm saying. There are many flowers that look like MM. Could fool the best of us. Stick Tarantula, tokyo fantasy, perfection, raptor, CC, the long list of famous OZ roths or Dazzler I could pick them out. They would certainly be in the top groups. I could prob pick out the exact clone on a good blooming.

I totally agree get what you like. Im just saying that what you like can be had at an affordable price if you are not interested in name brand. So you are lucky. Im telling you that I have seen some MM x self and some plants labelled as commander x self and trinity x commander and trinity x mm that look lots like MM. I had one that was so MMish I don't know how you tell them apart the color, dimensions. Some of the new generation roths have looked very MMish.


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## cattmad (Mar 7, 2015)

there were a lot of very good roths that came out of Val X MM as well that haven't been mentioned yet, like knights sunshine

http://www.orchidweb.jp/orchidshow/jgp2008/paph_species.htm

and 'holy Max'

http://www.woctrust.org/Tokyo-2006.html

or the very dark dorsaled 'knights castle'

https://plus.google.com/+Sborchidshow1/posts/cTVgfA7cE8J

it needs to be remembered that TON flowered 4-5 thousand seedlings to get the absolute best plants


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## paphioland (Mar 7, 2015)

There were many. I just mentioned the very top tier.



cattmad said:


> there were a lot of very good roths that came out of Val X MM as well that haven't been mentioned yet, like knights sunshine
> 
> http://www.orchidweb.jp/orchidshow/jgp2008/paph_species.htm
> 
> ...


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## Justin (Mar 7, 2015)

paphioland said:


> There were many. I just mentioned the very top tier.



As the pollen parent Val was not the best out of C.E. x Borneo. I was thinking about crossing 'Sheila' onto MM to get something better. Only problem is I don't have a nursery greenhouse on hand to flower out some thousands to find it...

Val:
https://www.google.com/search?q=rot...nt.0catch.com%2F2.0specieslisting.htm;640;480

Sheila:
http://www.csnjc.org/Sacto2012/paphrothschildianum.html


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## paphioland (Mar 7, 2015)

Justin said:


> As the pollen parent Val was not the best out of C.E. x Borneo. I was thinking about crossing 'Sheila' onto MM to get something better. Only problem is I don't have a nursery greenhouse on hand to flower out some thousands to find it...
> 
> Val:
> https://www.google.com/search?q=rot...nt.0catch.com%2F2.0specieslisting.htm;640;480
> ...



I wouldn't. I would keep moving forward. Even if it is a little better you will still be behind.


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## Ozpaph (Mar 7, 2015)

You guys play for keeps! Most of us only dream of having a 2nd or 3rd tier roth, by your standards!


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## Trithor (Mar 8, 2015)

Great thread!


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## paphioland (Mar 8, 2015)

paphioland said:


> I wouldn't. I would keep moving forward. Even if it is a little better you will still be behind.



What I mean by this is that the average quality of Machans new crosses must be better than the previous. He does lots of line breeding. If at some point diversity was needed put back into the crosses to make jumps forward again there are much better choices in my opinion. Roths are a huge investment in time and resources to breed. If you want to do it right you prob have to create at least 250-500 plants to know the potential of the cross. That is lots of space for 7-10 yrs. People will say oh I bloom my roths in 4 years. Sure maybe a few of the cross. To get 80% of the cross to bloom and on fully mature plants it takes at least that long.


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## Paul (Mar 8, 2015)

Paphioland, do you think that 4N roths (made from very selected 2N roths like those mentionned in the thread) could produce something new and better in size, shape, colour and vigour, have you info about that?


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## paphioland (Mar 8, 2015)

I don't know.People have achieved great flowers with 2 n and 4n isn't always better. Look at bessea or stonei.The best person to ask would be Xavier. I think his handle here is Roth. he claimed he was colchicine treating roths years back. He claims he did it to a Dazzler cross Lien and I made years ago and he would give me some back but has never occurred.

That being said I have heard or seen no evidence of these roths so I am assuming they are not better or have not bloomed yet.


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## theorchidzone (Mar 8, 2015)

Regarding 4N roths, EYOF apparently made some. They told me that the flowers were not significantly bigger, but that consistently the staminode etc was larger.
The effects of 4N vary by species. We have some schlimii that are almost certainly 4N, but the 4N went to the leaves. Flowers....nothing special. On the other hand we have some besseae that look to be 4N. Much improved, but they are touchy to grow.
Colchicine treating has rather low yield. The newer methods for conversion are much better.
Sometimes we have awesome outlier flowers bloom out, and I wonder with excitement: these could be tetraploid. But actually, this view is illogical. If an extraordinary flower comes up, it is better if it is 2N. 
JC



paphioland said:


> I don't know.People have achieved great flowers with 2 n and 4n isn't always better. Look at bessea or stonei.The best person to ask would be Xavier. I think his handle here is Roth. he claimed he was colchicine treating roths years back. He claims he did it to a Dazzler cross Lien and I made years ago and he would give me some back but has never occurred.
> 
> That being said I have heard or seen no evidence of these roths so I am assuming they are not better or have not bloomed yet.


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## tomkalina (Mar 8, 2015)

I agree, JC


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## paphioland (Mar 8, 2015)

cattmad said:


> I've never seen Machan use 'Tokyo Fantasy' in breeding, what a beautiful plants it is though



Machan also doenst sell all of his crosses until they bloom. Or he sells very limited. Like tarantula x perfection. Unless you got it as a flask or have good relationship with him I don't think he would sell unless you pay lots.


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## paphioland (Mar 8, 2015)

tomkalina said:


> I agree, JC



Ditto

Sometimes polyploid plants are just cool because they are different but not always better. Harder to breed on with them usually too. So easier to use 2n for longterm quality improvement. Although those lowii that Frank made were spectacular and I'm pretty sure those were polyploidy but they aren't very fertile.


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## Justin (Mar 9, 2015)

curious what do you think the total market is for the upper echelon roths...among private growers in the US...maybe 20 at the most? i am not in this market myself with other financial priorities these days and not as much disposable income. also from experience risk averse to the difficulty of establishing roths after they have been divided.


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## paphioland (Mar 9, 2015)

Justin said:


> curious what do you think the total market is for the upper echelon roths...among private growers in the US...maybe 20 at the most? i am not in this market myself with other financial priorities these days and not as much disposable income. also from experience risk averse to the difficulty of establishing roths after they have been divided.




Like the upper upper? I know of 3 nonprof growers world wide lol. There are lots more though.


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## paphioland (Mar 9, 2015)

Def not 20 In the U.S. Less. It really depends what you mean by upper eschelon. Like the absurd top quality most of the time. I think less than 5 who don't have a busines stake in orchids in the US. The level below that. Someone who has nice stuff and every once and awhile will spring for something top tier, I think there are many. Prob over 100 In the US and lots in the world. I'm talking just paphs. John chant would prob know the answer to this best. People change their buying practices too based on interest, financial situation. Some people only buy really nice of one type but just nice of other types. I still think that there are less than 5-10 super top tier paph buyers in the US.


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## theorchidzone (Mar 9, 2015)

Hard to answer. Paphioland is more or less correct. 
Top tier plants is a moving target also. New top tier plants replace the old top tier if breeding/selection is done correctly.
JC



paphioland said:


> Def not 20 In the U.S. Less. It really depends what you mean by upper eschelon. Like the absurd top quality most of the time. I think less than 5 who don't have a busines stake in orchids in the US. The level below that. Someone who has nice stuff and every once and awhile will spring for something top tier, I think there are many. Prob over 100 In the US and lots in the world. I'm talking just paphs. John chant would prob know the answer to this best. People change their buying practices too based on interest, financial situation. Some people only buy really nice of one type but just nice of other types. I still think that there are less than 5-10 super top tier paph buyers in the US.


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## Leo_5313 (Mar 10, 2015)

All super nice.


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## AdamD (Mar 11, 2015)

I don't know if this was posted yet and don't feel like going back over all the pages

http://www.tokyoorchidnursery.com/paph/#

Link to a page with a pic of Tokyo Fantasy


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## Fabrice (Mar 11, 2015)

Hum, on this link http://www.tokyoorchidnursery.com/2015/02/02/東京オーキット-ナーセリー2015年2月リスト/ Mont Millais, it's NS 30 , DS 6.4 and PW 2.2 with dark color.
Similar measurement than many current awarded roths. Not bad for an old (wild) guy! :rollhappy:


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## Justin (Mar 11, 2015)

yeah mm is still pretty nice


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## paphioland (Mar 11, 2015)

Fabrice said:


> Hum, on this link http://www.tokyoorchidnursery.com/2015/02/02/東京オーキット-ナーセリー2015年2月リスト/ Mont Millais, it's NS 30 , DS 6.4 and PW 2.2 with dark color.
> Similar measurement than many current awarded roths. Not bad for an old (wild) guy! :rollhappy:



You still couldn't pull it out of the new generation of Roths. Trust me. Also very few hobbyists can bloom the flower as well as Machan. I am just saying I can get you mm indistinguishable lot cheaper.


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## Kawarthapine (Mar 11, 2015)

Tarantula and Tokyo Fantasy just got added to my bucket list...

...and I thought I had given up paphs for phrags.

I need more growing space.


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## Cat (Mar 11, 2015)

Hmm I need to buy a Tarantula for sure but I also like the color on Raptor. I'm definitely going to want to buy both. A flask preferred.


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## cattmad (Mar 12, 2015)

link to better photo of tarantula with multiple spikes

http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/purewater_orchids/15199991.html


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## cattmad (Mar 12, 2015)

check out the awesome bell too


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## John Boy (Mar 12, 2015)

Quite a sight to behold.


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## Ozpaph (Mar 12, 2015)

cattmad said:


> link to better photo of tarantula with multiple spikes
> 
> http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/purewater_orchids/15199991.html



What a wonderful flower, but the spikes are short (IMHO). I like long regal spikes to show off the great flowers


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## Cat (Mar 12, 2015)

I know I can get a Raptor flask from Sam but could someone tell me where I could get a Tarantula flask?


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## eggshells (Mar 12, 2015)

Good discussion. I am not a roth nut. I have a few in my collection and quite please with the ones I have bloomed. But if I ever have to pick. I will pick this clone or similar to it. I had forgotten where I found this photo. 

All credits to the owner and photographer


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## paphioland (Mar 12, 2015)

Cat said:


> I know I can get a Raptor flask from Sam but could someone tell me where I could get a Tarantula flask?



I have seedlings and compots of all sizes. I may release some somday.


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## Cat (Mar 12, 2015)

@ paphioland - if you are selling some seedlings or compots of Tarantula, Make sure to send a PM my way. Only thing is I am in Canada and I know moving plants can be harder then flask :sob:


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## cattmad (Mar 12, 2015)

eggshells said:


> Good discussion. I am not a roth nut. I have a few in my collection and quite please with the ones I have bloomed. But if I ever have to pick. I will pick this clone or similar to it. I had forgotten where I found this photo.
> 
> All credits to the owner and photographer



I could be wrong but that looks like Roth 'knight castle' GM/JOGA to me


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## John Boy (Mar 12, 2015)

In proportion it kind of looks a small(ish) flower, for a GM/JOGA.....


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## SlipperFan (Mar 12, 2015)

Stunning. Simply stunning.


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## paphioland (Mar 12, 2015)

It looks a little like Canadian club.


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## Justin (Apr 25, 2015)

TON posted some new roth pictures on their website from the current generation. The first one is extremely nice.

Does anyone sometimes think that flowers from MM are the best in the F1 generation? It seems the F2 don't have as many standouts. Makes me think the F3 will be amazing.

http://www.tokyoorchidnursery.com


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## AdamD (Apr 25, 2015)

Oh man am I ever excited about my Saltin Pepper x Western Monarch cross! That 'Gargantula' is a beauty! Mine is starting a new growth, so fingers crossed for next year.


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## Justin (Apr 25, 2015)

i have some too, spring queen x western monarch, knight challenge x titanic, giant wings x mm, etc. hope mine bud soon too.


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## paphioland (Apr 25, 2015)

I think it has to do with the sheer number bloomed. There are def a higher percentage of good ones which is what I think happens more with species after multiple generations of breeding. You do push the top standard forward but more slowly than making the average quality higher and more homogeneous. Ton Roth's weakness have been narrow petals in my opinion. Some have good petal width but it is rarer compared to OZ crosses. Unfort it is very unusual to have thick petals and long petals. Wait you will see some really good ones out of the new crosses eventually. Look at consett's roth with titatic as parent. It was pretty darn nice.


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## Justin (Apr 25, 2015)

are you talking about this one? it is fabulous. i think he said this one is the KC x T cross though.

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33723


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## ehanes7612 (Apr 25, 2015)

eggshells said:


> Good discussion. I am not a roth nut. I have a few in my collection and quite please with the ones I have bloomed. But if I ever have to pick. I will pick this clone or similar to it. I had forgotten where I found this photo.
> 
> All credits to the owner and photographer



I really like this one too..this is the best photo I have seen of a roth..too bad the roths that are considered the top don't have photos like this.


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## troy (Apr 25, 2015)

WOW!!!! EHANES, is that yours? Or copy pasted picture?


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## ehanes7612 (Apr 25, 2015)

troy said:


> WOW!!!! EHANES, is that yours? Or copy pasted picture?



its an earlier post in this thread


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## Chicago Chad (May 24, 2017)

> He claims he did it to a Dazzler cross Lien and I made years ago and he would give me some back but has never occurred.


Ken is this 'Dazzler' x 'Buff'???


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## paphioland (May 24, 2017)

Chicago Chad said:


> Ken is this 'Dazzler' x 'Buff'???



No it is not. It is 'dazzler' x 'Canadian club'


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## Ozpaph (May 24, 2017)

Ken, have you flowered or bought anything interesting lately? We like to see your flowers. Thanks


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## paphioland (May 24, 2017)

Ozpaph said:


> Ken, have you flowered or bought anything interesting lately? We like to see your flowers. Thanks



Sorry too busy to post right now. I have been and will prob cont to post on Instagram and Facebook. I'll keep you informed.


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## Ozpaph (May 24, 2017)

whats your FB page? Would love to see it if thats ok. Thanks


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## MorandiWine (May 29, 2017)

Ozpaph said:


> Ken, have you flowered or bought anything interesting lately? We like to see your flowers. Thanks





Lol! Yes he has 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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