# Compact multifloral paphs?



## Corbin (Feb 21, 2008)

I would like very much to have some mulitfloral paphs. so I am asking for recomendations.

Thanks,


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## Heather (Feb 21, 2008)

laevigatum (the smaller form of P. philippinense.)

There's another nice compact multi out there that is related, philippinense var. aureum 'Greenlace' JC/AOS. Marilyn LeDoux at Windy Hill Gardens sold me one a while back. 

Both were easy to grow and bloom, and did so frequently for me.
There are photos here if you search on them.


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## Elena (Feb 21, 2008)

I believe Paph wilhelminiae is compact.

My phil var. roebelinii is actually pretty compact as far as multis go.


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## Ernie (Feb 21, 2008)

Adductum, wilhelminae, and phil v laevigatum are your compact multiflorals; for the "other multiflorals" (Pardalopetalum) look for lynniae, but good luck. AnTec has a great article on "Downsizing Multiloral Paphs" on their web site ladyslipper.com. 

-Ernie


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## Rick (Feb 21, 2008)

Ernie said:


> Adductum, wilhelminae, and phil v laevigatum are your compact multiflorals; for the "other multiflorals" (Pardalopetalum) look for lynniae, but good luck. AnTec has a great article on "Downsizing Multiloral Paphs" on their web site ladyslipper.com.
> 
> -Ernie



Sounds good to me. My wilhelms have leaf spans of about 7 inches. But they are prone to have no more than 2 flowers per spike. There are compact varieties of phil, and laevigatum seems to be consistent. Some roebelini are reportedly small too, but all the ones I've got are huge.

One species that doesn't get any press but I saw a fantastic one at a show is richardianum (A small variety, or maybe species) similar to lowii. And some dianthum stay pretty small too.


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## Heather (Feb 21, 2008)

richardianum is a good one. 

Personally, I've found adductum difficult (expensive and difficult) so be forewarned on that one.


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## ohio-guy (Feb 21, 2008)

you might look for Lyro blackhawk, (wilhelminae x St Swithen) which blooms on a small plant and looks like a dark Phil roeb to me.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Feb 21, 2008)

My philipinense...the one that is spiking now after 20 years...is quite compact...won't know what variety it is until the blooms open...There's a photo of it under the "Finally" thread. Take care, Eric


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## Roy (Feb 21, 2008)

There seems to be an influence on suggesting species here. There are many Hybrid multiflorals that fit the bill which are probably easier to grow and flower for some one to start with.
My suggestions :
Honey - prim x phili
Mamie Wilson - prim x lowii
Prime Child - prim x roth............not all are small though
Toni Semple - hayn' x lowii


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## Carol (Feb 22, 2008)

I have a Paph Lyro Blackhawk growing in s/h that is compact and a vigorous grower. It has 2 spikes, with 4 buds each and hopefully it will be in bloom for our show, March 15 & !6. If anyone is in the Pittsburgh area, please come to the show, "Orchid Party in the Park". Admission is free and judging is on Friday, March 14. More info available at www.oswp.org.


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## Corbin (Feb 24, 2008)

Thanks for all the suggestions.:rollhappy:


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## potteryman (Feb 24, 2008)

Hi Carol..I have 2 small Lyro Blackhawk plants...any info you would care to share regarding their culture?..thanks in advance...


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## goldenrose (Feb 25, 2008)

Is anyone else finding the recommendation on Lyro Blackhawk confusing? The comments are that they bloom on small plants but I would think having St.Swithin as a parent, they are not going to stay/remain compact.


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## Roy (Feb 25, 2008)

goldenrose said:


> Is anyone else finding the recommendation on Lyro Blackhawk confusing? The comments are that they bloom on small plants but I would think having St.Swithin as a parent, they are not going to stay/remain compact.



Rose, I would think they may stay smallish as has been said wilhelminae is small and St Swithin grown away from the tropics doesn't get overly large but I would think bigger than compact. I will all come down to culture in the end.
Not one I would recommend though, just incase.


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## goldenrose (Feb 25, 2008)

Thanks Roy - I think we're on the same line of thought but that didn't seem to be expressed in previous posts. If it comes down to culture, if one does not give correct culture that does not result in a good growing plant then chances are it's going to be difficult to bloom (or bloom poorly), defeating the whole purpose of acquiring the plant!


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## Carol (Feb 25, 2008)

This is my Paph Lyro Blackhawk with 2 spikes and 8 growths. I do not think it is a large plant for a multi-floral paph. I grow under fluorescent lights and this one is in s/h. It seems to be a vigorous grower, although it lost a blooming size growth to rot last year around this time of year and did not bloom.


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## goldenrose (Feb 26, 2008)

Thanks for posting Carol! I agree with you, I wouldn't expect the one parent to have that much influence on size. Hopefully, if a young plant was taking after the St.Swithin parent, one would notice it & chose accordingly if space were an issue.


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## NYEric (Feb 26, 2008)

Can somebody tell me the diff between wilhelminae and glanduliferum!?


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## tusker (Feb 26, 2008)

NYEric said:


> Can somebody tell me the diff between wilhelminae and glanduliferum!?



wilhelminae and praestans were at one time lumped together as glanduliferum, here's a link to a good article on the subject:

http://www.orchidspng.com/contrib_garay2.html


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## Rick (Feb 26, 2008)

I'm not sure how good an article this is. I've been through the ringer on this one with Joan Levy.

According to Joan, wilhelm does not exist in the United States, and everything called wilhelminea is actually gardineri (or a hybrid of gardineri and praetens). According to Joan and Dr Garay, if it has twisted petals its not wilhelm. 

The article posted makes very little (if any) reference on where all these species are supposed to come from other than New Guinea. Cribb shows wilhelm coming from high elevation in New Guinea, and in situ pictures show a flower with twisted petals. Praetens or glanduliferum are from lowland New Guinea. It's hard to find any reference for a collection location for gardineri, but I did manage to find on local of an island off of New Guinea. I'm not sure if the description of gardineri was based on anything more than one herbarium specimen of unknown origin.

Subsequently, I hold to Cribbs taxonomy with wilhelm coming from the highlands, 1-2 flowers (rarely 3) and plant size on the order of 6-8 inches in span. The lowland species (either called praetens or glanduliferum) is a bigger plant, slightly paler flowers, and 3-4 flowers per spike.


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## tusker (Feb 26, 2008)

Rick said:


> I'm not sure how good an article this is. I've been through the ringer on this one with Joan Levy.
> 
> According to Joan, wilhelm does not exist in the United States, and everything called wilhelminea is actually gardineri (or a hybrid of gardineri and praetens). According to Joan and Dr Garay, if it has twisted petals its not wilhelm.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the info Rick. It's definitely one to keep the taxonomists busy.

Didn't the RHS hang on to lumping everything as glanduliferum (or praestans?) until fairly recently, thus adding to the confusion?

A true wilhelminae with straight petals would be very cool--like a mini roth.


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## Rick (Feb 27, 2008)

tusker said:


> A true wilhelminae with straight petals would be very cool--like a mini roth.



I don't think it exists. Kind of reminds me of how micranthum got its name. Koopowitz also talks about another flower (can't remember what it was at this point) that was described incorrectly because it was based on a first captive blooming that was considerably different from subseqent normal bloomings for that species.

It's such a race to name species that descriptions are often based on very small sample sizes of unknown origin with questionable flower quality.


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## NYEric (Feb 27, 2008)

Well, I'm no taxonomist so I'm sticking w/ what the tag says. Thanx!


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## Corbin (Feb 28, 2008)

Carol said:


> This is my Paph Lyro Blackhawk with 2 spikes and 8 growths. I do not think it is a large plant for a multi-floral paph. I grow under fluorescent lights and this one is in s/h. It seems to be a vigorous grower, although it lost a blooming size growth to rot last year around this time of year and did not bloom.



Can you tell me the diameter of the pot it is in, as a reference for size?


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## Bob Wellenstein (Feb 28, 2008)

A quick comment on each direction this thread has gone in.

1. I agree with Rick, forget those that overcomplicate this and follow Cribb. I have seen a fair amount of collected material of these two, and feel they can be easily separated, with very little variation in true P. wilhelminiae and some variation in size and color in glanduliferum. Problem is, unless you really know the background of your plants you've a problem, because the two have been hybridized and sold under all sorts of names repeatedly. I am happy I can trace all our plants and breeding back to collected clones, but many (most?) out there have been screwed up.

2. There are a few true hybridizers out there, people who have plans and goals, as opposed to what seems to be the norm these days for crossing whatevers open and ultra mass producing plants just to have fodder to sell. The original make of Lyro Blackhawk was on a Saint Swithin that had a very dark flower and extremely compact size for the cross obtained from Steve Slaughter just for that purpose. Why would you cross P. wilhelminiae otherwise if you are hybridizing, you are bringing a dark flower and compact size to the table with it, so you search out a plant that will maximize that. I can't speak for ohers remakes.


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## Carol (Feb 28, 2008)

It is the 4.5" pot from First Rays. I purchased the orchid from a vendor at our spring show 2 years ago, and he probably brought it in from Hawaii.


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## MoreWater (Feb 28, 2008)

I love threads like this! Lots of good and interesting info. :clap:


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## Heather (Feb 29, 2008)

Kudos Bob! Great post, that last one. I was just talking with someone the other day regarding the rampant hybridizing that goes on, often with no good results even expected, but just for the hell of it.


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## Corbin (Mar 1, 2008)

Carol said:


> It is the 4.5" pot from First Rays. I purchased the orchid from a vendor at our spring show 2 years ago, and he probably brought it in from Hawaii.



So then it looks like the plant is about 6" tall (not counting the flower spike).

That is getting down to the size I need. Please post pictures when the flowers open. 

I looked up several of the recommended plants and found some variances in size for each which would point to different backgrounds for the particular grex being offered.

wilhelminae was most constantly described as small but it sounds like it may be hard to find.


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## Carol (Mar 1, 2008)

Yes, I will post when it opens. I am forcing the blooms now since our Spring Show is March 15-16. I have it on a wire shelf over my Jacuzzi tub that has warm water in it. Every few hours I go up to the bathroom and turn on the jets to up the humidity. I also have a Paph philippinense v. album, Paph Julius and a Paph Dollecivita on the same rack. There are 2 skylights and a southern exposure, so hopefully I will have blooms for my exhibit.


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