# Phrag tetzlaffianum



## phrag guy (Sep 13, 2011)

Two spikes the one is going to branch can't tell if the other is going to yet.


----------



## slippertalker (Sep 13, 2011)

I like it! This is pretty unique among phrags with the twisted petals. Phrag hirtzii is the only other one that I am aware of...


----------



## Shiva (Sep 13, 2011)

Beautiful! I'm still hoping to get one someday.


----------



## Chuck (Sep 13, 2011)

Very nice flower. Branching is such a bonus in any phrag.


----------



## phrag guy (Sep 13, 2011)

Shiva said:


> Beautiful! I'm still hoping to get one someday.



My friend had some divisions in the spring.I could see if any are left.


----------



## W. Beetus (Sep 13, 2011)

Beautiful species.


----------



## SlipperFan (Sep 13, 2011)

I don't ever see this for sale. I'd snap this one up in a heartbeat!


----------



## NYEric (Sep 13, 2011)

SlipperFan said:


> I don't ever see this for sale. I'd snap this one up in a heartbeat!


That's because you live in the USA.


----------



## biothanasis (Sep 14, 2011)

Gorgeous shape and colour!!!


----------



## AquaGem (Sep 14, 2011)

I Want!!!!!!!!!


----------



## cnycharles (Sep 14, 2011)

isn't there some controversy as to whether or not this is a species? I'd heard talk, but don't know one way or the other. it is a nice flower...


----------



## Jorch (Sep 14, 2011)

Sweet!! I am still waiting for mine to bloom.. ggrrr... 

I have a few plants labelled as such, I am waiting for them to bloom to confirm the ID.


----------



## Susie11 (Sep 14, 2011)

Wow what a beautiful phrag!! I love it


----------



## Wendy (Sep 14, 2011)

cnycharles said:


> isn't there some controversy as to whether or not this is a species? I'd heard talk, but don't know one way or the other. it is a nice flower...



It is eerily similar to Phrag Simon Marcotte.  Either way it's awesome.


----------



## phrag guy (Sep 14, 2011)

Well said Wendy,I myself don't know. I did have a piture of Simon Marcotte years ago but lost a bunch of pictures and it was one of them.



Wendy said:


> It is eerily similar to Phrag Simon Marcotte.  Either way it's awesome.


----------



## SlipperFan (Sep 14, 2011)

cnycharles said:


> isn't there some controversy as to whether or not this is a species? I'd heard talk, but don't know one way or the other. it is a nice flower...



http://www.phragweb.info/phragmipedium/species/display_species_phrag.asp?phrag_id=300


----------



## Kevin (Sep 14, 2011)

cnycharles said:


> isn't there some controversy as to whether or not this is a species? I'd heard talk, but don't know one way or the other. it is a nice flower...





SlipperFan said:


> http://www.phragweb.info/phragmipedium/species/display_species_phrag.asp?phrag_id=300



Yes, I heard that this was considered by some to be a natural hybrid, but I'm not sure between which species. PhragWeb does not mention that, but maybe Olaf could help with this, since his name is on it?


----------



## SlipperKing (Sep 15, 2011)

Pretty amazing petals!


----------



## ORG (Sep 15, 2011)

_*Phragmipedium tetzlaffianum*_ and the hybrid *Phrag. Simon Marcotte* are the same plants.Simaon Marcotte was registered as te result of the cross between _Phrag_. Nitidissimum and _Phrag. ecuadorense_.
When you analyze the flower then you can see that it is impossible that these are the parents of.
I have seen now around 20 plants in flower, all look very similar without variation. So I am sure that it is a distinct species. There is only the great problem that we don't know where it comes from. It shall be imported from Venzuela as _Phrag. klotscheanum_ some years ago, but nobody knows more!!

Best greetings

Olaf


----------



## cnycharles (Sep 15, 2011)

so, back when tetzlaff had plants of simon marcotte and tetzlaffianum/klotscheanum in his greenhouse (from what it seems, reading old posts of various orchid forums), he got plants mixed up and submitted what he thought was his hybrid, but was the species instead? i'm unsure as to how the mixup happened and he submitted a species instead of a hybrid to be registered. I guess we'll never know!

I have a plant that was of a flask of seedlings long ago that were supposed to be longifolium parents or a selfing. When a fellow orchid club member flowered out his plant from the compot, he was told that the flower was of phrag tetzlaffianum! he ended up being out of town alot, and his plant crashed and died. mine is still slowly growing, but hasn't flowered yet
hope springs eternal!


----------



## NYEric (Sep 15, 2011)

Not definitively. I've heard numerous stories about the plant and we may never be sure without DNA analysis.


----------



## Wendy (Sep 15, 2011)

It was John M, who posts on here, that had Phrag Simon Marcotte awarded...John had nothing to do with Phrag tetzlaffianum. I believe his plant was awarded before tetzlaffianum came 'to be'. (but I could be wrong)


----------



## ORG (Sep 15, 2011)

I think the story is very easy.
Both Mr. Marcotte and Tetzlaff get the plants from the same person or from the same import from Venezuela. The plants were labeled as Phrag. klotzscheanum, perhaps because they have lanceolate leaves (but bigger then these of klotscheanum).
When the plant came in flower then it was clear for both, that it is not Phrag. klotscheanum. 

Then you can try to make an analyze if it is perhaps a hybrid or a species.

Mr. Marcotte came to the reult that it is a new hybrid, perhaps Nitidissimum with ecuadorense (in truth pearcei) and so he named the hybrid after his dog Simon.

When you try to analyze the parents then you must come to the result that 
there are no other species which could produce flowers and especially a staminode like these of tetzlaffianum. Before the Phrag. tezlaffianum was described a very long discussion and analyze was made with the decision in the end to make a description of a new species.

Best greetings

Olaf


----------



## SlipperFan (Sep 15, 2011)

Thanks, Olaf. It pays to know history.


----------



## cnycharles (Sep 15, 2011)

thank you for the explanation.


----------



## Wendy (Sep 15, 2011)

I'm pretty sure that John got his plant (Phrag Simon Marcotte 'Sheila' AM/AOS) from a society sales table and that it already had the cross on the label. Hopefully he sees this post and can clarify how he got his plant.


----------



## John M (Sep 16, 2011)

Olaf, I'm afraid that your assumptions about my involvement here are completely incorrect. This is how nasty rumours get started and people's reputations get damaged. You should be more careful, please. I did NOT ever receive any plants from Venezuela. I have never owned any plants labelled as klotzscheanum. .....and I did NOT guess that the name for my plant should be Nitidissimum x ecuadorense. 

I bought my plant, already labelled as Phrag. (Nitidissimum x ecuadorense) from a society sales table at a show in the late 80's. It grew and finally bloomed and was awarded an AM/AOS in 1993. The cross was not registered; so, I had to do that. Since I had bought the plant from a society sales table years before, it was impossible for me to determine who was the seller. Not being able to track down the originator of the cross, I explained my situation to the RHS and respectfully requested that I be allowed to name the cross. The RHS agreed and the cross was registered as Phrag. Simon Marcotte O/U (originator unknown). Yes, Simon was my dog....a very special member of my family.

Then, a few years later, Alan Tetzlaff and I did a trade. He gave me a large number of ecuadorense seedlings and I gave him a division of my awarded Phrag. Simon Marcotte 'Sheila' AM/AOS. In late 1998, I became seriously ill and dropped out of the orchid world until 2002. Shortly after dropping out of orchids, I heard (via a friend, who was still in orchids), that a rumour about me was circulating. People were saying that I had died! Therefore of course, people thought that I was permanently gone from the orchid world. When I returned to the orchid world (shockingly, rising from the dead, according to some), I soon found out that there was a new species called tetzlaffianum, described by you, which was "discovered" growing in the collection of Alan Tetzlaff.....and which is identical in every way to my Phrag. Simon Marcotte 'Sheila' AM/AOS. Those are the facts. Exactly where and how Alan got his tetzlaffianum is really for Alan to explain.

Whether or not my plant was labelled correctly, I conceed, is up for discussion. After all, from where does it get the tightly twisted petals? Neither Nitidissimum nor ecuadorense have petals like that. However, that is the name it had when I got it and at the time of being awarded, the flower seemed to be correct as far as I and the judges would expect from that cross. You say differently now; but, you are far more expert about such things than me, or the judges. Perhaps you are correct in that Phrag. Simon Marcotte 'Sheila' is not (Nitidissimum x ecuadorense); but, until I see a batch of selfing seedlings from Alan's tetzlaffianum grown up and blooming and remaining stable and true to the parent plant's attributes, I am still "on the fence" as to the identity of tetzlaffianum. I have acquired a piece of tetzlaffianum from Wendy, who got it by successfully bidding on a division which was donated by Alan to a fund raising auction. Last year I sent selfing seeds to a lab for germination; but, unfortunately, the lab does not yet see any germination. I have asked them to move the seeds to a new mother flask with a new formulation to try and stimulate some action. Time will tell.....hopefully.


----------



## Wendy (Sep 16, 2011)

Thanks John. I was pretty sure I was right but didn't want to write it down and be way off base.


----------



## SlipperFan (Sep 17, 2011)

Like I said, it pays to know history.


----------



## NYEric (Sep 17, 2011)

NYEric said:


> Not definitively. I've heard numerous stories about the plant and we may never be sure without DNA analysis.


----------



## Phrag-Plus (Sep 24, 2011)

ORG said:


> I think the story is very easy.
> Both Mr. Marcotte and Tetzlaff get the plants from the same person or from the same import from Venezuela. The plants were labeled as Phrag. klotzscheanum, perhaps because they have lanceolate leaves (but bigger then these of klotscheanum).
> When the plant came in flower then it was clear for both, that it is not Phrag. klotscheanum.
> 
> ...


Hi Olaf, I was very surprise to read all those affirmations in this story and post:

1)	Both Mr. Marcotte and Tetzlaff get the plants from the same person (Allan got his plant from John and I. Did John and I got it from the same source, this is a probability.)

2)	or from the same import from Venezuela. ( This is a pure speculation ) 

3)	The plants were labelled as Phrag. klotzscheanum, ( Only the first one I’ve bought at Montreal Canada ( 1990 ) was labelled as klotzscheanum ‘Michael’’ Others from Ottawa, Canada (1991-92) were from a tray of nine unlabelled Phragmipediums.)

4)	perhaps because they have lanceolate leaves (but bigger then these of klotscheanum). (This is supposition and interpretation) 

5)	When the plant came in flower then it was clear for both, that it is not Phrag. klotscheanum. (John is saying than his plant was labelled as Nitidissimum x ecuadorense when he got it. And I did mention that klotzscheanum mislabelling to Allan only years later he never expected that species to flower)

6)	Mr. Marcotte came to the result that it is a new hybrid, perhaps Nitidissimum with ecuadorense (in truth pearcei) and so he named the hybrid after his dog Simon. (There is a tale about some parentage search for that plant just before it was registered. But that tale never mentioned if the plant was already labelled under those name or not… Another assumption!) 

I did try for over 20 years now to self or sib that plant without any success! 
Usually Phragmipedium species are very easy to set seedpods and their seeds are having a very good % of germination. It doesn’t mean they are easy to be grown once out of flask after that stage but they usually thrive in flask. 

Unfortunately this one work out like a 3N for me, when breeding it gave very few seedlings. My first hybrid was La Davière (Simon Marcotte x longifolium) and 3 seedlings came out from that cross and very similar to longifolium.


----------

