# Most difficult Paph species?



## The Mutant (Sep 5, 2012)

I was discussing this topic with another Paph-o-maniac on the Swedish orchid forum. This other member thought I had my work cut out for myself by getting as many roths as I have (yup, many for us newbie, windowsill growers) since they are so difficult. I replied that I don't think they are that difficult, at most they are slow growers, and, if I've understood correctly, some can be tricky to bloom. I've not, however, gotten the impression that they are one of the most difficult of the Paph species.

What do you more experienced growers have to say? Is my assumption right, or is it wrong?

Which Paph species do you consider being the most difficult one, both to grow and to bloom?

I would really like to know what you have to say.


----------



## eggshells (Sep 5, 2012)

The common misconception of "roths are hard to bloom" is due to the fact that it used to be. However, the line breeding of this species have made it easier to bloom and also affordable. 

I would say that the hardest is adductum and anitum for me. But not that hard as you said it is mostly a slow grower. It's just not very forgiving. Its more like you have waited so long for a couple of leaves to grow big and one little mistake on culture and you lose two leaves.


----------



## Justin (Sep 5, 2012)

rothschildianum is pretty easy to grow, and the newer crosses are quite easy to bloom. The only trouble i have ever had with roths is trying to establish smaller divisions, they can be very difficult if the division is too small and will die.


----------



## valenzino (Sep 6, 2012)

Agreee with the other comments about roth....
The most difficult species to grow are probably Paph. anitum in the "multiflower" group...
And probably Paph papuanum and wenthwortianum...


----------



## NYEric (Sep 6, 2012)

I dont think any Paph is hard to grow. There are slower and faster growers, and those that can take years to flower but that's part of the process. If you can match the conditions the plants need to be successful you can grow anything.


----------



## The Mutant (Sep 6, 2012)

Seems I have the right idea about roths then, that's good to know. 



valenzino said:


> Agreee with the other comments about roth....
> The most difficult species to grow are probably Paph. anitum in the "multiflower" group...
> And probably Paph papuanum and wenthwortianum...


Oooh, sooo beautiful! :smitten:

I would love both a papaunum and a wenthwortianum... But since you don't mention their pal, violascens, it means I might stand a chance growing mine then. 



NYEric said:


> I dont think any Paph is hard to grow. There are slower and faster growers, and those that can take years to flower but that's part of the process. If you can match the conditions the plants need to be successful you can grow anything.


So in other words I should rephrase myself; which Paph species is the most demanding when it comes to its conditions (this sentence seems so odd, but I can't think of a way to rephrase it... I hope you understand what I mean anyway) ? :wink:


----------



## Rick (Sep 6, 2012)

I think this one has popped up several times over the years.

I think it ends up that the "easisest to kill" are the south Pacific barbata types like papuanum, wentworthianum, viloacea, mastersianum, sangii.....

Folks tend to wipe them out left and right, but they are not typically slow growing.

Sometimes we here about folks having problems with some of the Vietnamese cliff dwellers emersonii, and hangianum.

In many ways the things that are tough to keep alive are also pretty rare in collections. So that's why you don't find lots of growers with big multigrowth sangii, papuanum, emersonii... Its not that they are new to science or unpopular/ugly.

Interestingly I've had problems with keeping purpuratum and sukhakulii for much more than a few years before K lite. But since I've been growing there have been times when "everyone has them" then all of a sudden "no one has them" . They seem to be fast growers and easy to bloom, but also easy to kill.

Adductum has been mentioned a couple times now, but they are very hard to obtain in the first place, and not bred in great quantity by those that have them. I wouldn't be surprised as more try a low K (high Ca/Mg) feeding strategy that soon there won't be any "difficult" paph species anymore.


----------



## The Mutant (Sep 6, 2012)

Thanks for your reply *Rick*.

All of a sudden I feel a bit worried since I have both mastersianum and violascens... 

Oh well, hopefully I'll be able to grow them, I AM using K-lite after all, so it's not like it's completely hopeless. 

I'll repeat what all of you have said to this other Paph-nut so she knows too, I must share my newly attained knowledge after all.


----------



## emydura (Sep 6, 2012)

Yes, I find roths pretty straight forward to grow, especially if you have a larger plant. I'd recommend you get the largest plants you can afford from Sam.


----------



## reivilos (Sep 6, 2012)

I'd say bellatulum alba and insigne sanderianum.
I find bellatulum alba quite erwinia-prone (everyone knows that), slow growing and very prone to bud blast.
Insigne sanderianum is a fast grower, very easy to bloom but very very very erwinia-prone.


----------



## Rick (Sep 6, 2012)

reivilos said:


> I'd say bellatulum alba and insigne sanderianum.
> I find bellatulum alba quite erwinia-prone (everyone knows that), slow growing and very prone to bud blast.
> Insigne sanderianum is a fast grower, very easy to bloom but very very very erwinia-prone.



The Klite research suggests that plants grown low K/high Ca/Mg are resistant to Erwinia.

So far this is panning out to be true for my collection. (For new growth and seedlings). Calcium is not readily labile in plant tissues, so old growth can still be susceptible.


----------



## Cheyenne (Sep 6, 2012)

I think alot of the species that are hard we just don't know that much about there conditions, or the right information. Like adductum and anitum, I had a problem with them at first. Then researched a little more found out they like alot of shade, alot!!! They like a more acidic media and respond better to ammonical fert. Now I haven't lost one in years. Emersonii, hangianum and company, pretty much all the parvi's experience very different seasons. You get that right and they are pretty easy and fast growing. You don't get it right and they do nothing and slowly die. I find the hardest plants are the ones that are slower to get going because there is more time to do something wrong. That said, for some reason I find the barbata and or maudiae types the hardest, I am missing something there. Other people can grow enormous plants on a window sill with multiple spikes.


----------



## Rick (Sep 6, 2012)

Cheyenne said:


> I think alot of the species that are hard we just don't know that much about there conditions, or the right information. Like adductum and anitum, I had a problem with them at first. Then researched a little more found out they like alot of shade, alot!!! They like a more acidic media and respond better to ammonical fert. Now I haven't lost one in years. Emersonii, hangianum and company, pretty much all the parvi's experience very different seasons. You get that right and they are pretty easy and fast growing. You don't get it right and they do nothing and slowly die. I find the hardest plants are the ones that are slower to get going because there is more time to do something wrong. That said, for some reason I find the barbata and or maudiae types the hardest, I am missing something there. Other people can grow enormous plants on a window sill with multiple spikes.



The high potassium feed using RO or rain water, is almost universal paph trauma. No where in the environment of any paph species (or just about any orchid for that matter) is potassium present in concentrations greater than the calcium and magnesium. So if you are trying to replicate nature, then the chemical environment in the root zone is something you are way off target on if you are using a high K fert. Also, when fertilizing at 100 ppm N, you are still offering the plant more in a single feeding than it would experience over months to a full year. The giant barbata types on windowsills often get little or no fert, and tap water (full of soluble Ca/Mg and virtually no K). For some reason because we plant people think of fertilizer as food, we think that it can go to our plants in unlimited quantities without any issues. However, inorganic fertilizers are really salts and not food, and really work under the rules of toxicology.


----------



## Eric Muehlbauer (Sep 6, 2012)

Back in my early days of orchid growing, there was a great series of articles in the AOS Bulletin (1985) by Ned Nash about growing paphs...became essential information for my growing attempts. His last article was about "difficult" paphs...and he divided them up between difficult to bloom/easy to grow and difficult to grow/easy to bloom. Of course, that meant multi's in the first category and brachy's in the latter category. Its been quite a few years since then, and I've been able to refine the generalizations and add others, for my conditions. It's really mixed within groups. Barbata types include the easy (sukhakulii) the moderate (callosum, barbatum, lawrencianum) and the difficult (violascens, mastersianum). For this group, It's definitely growth and survival. Blooming is very easy if they stay alive. (In fact, I'd extend that to say the species are easy to bloom...hybrids usually are, but the mix of genes lead to some clones that are very difficult to bloom..the species are more consistent.) In fact, I would hazard to guess that if you can keep a barbata paph alive long enough, blooming is almost certain. Same with brachy's, but while brachy's are easy to get to spike, some are hard to bloom....haven't gotten a bellatulum bloom in years. While concolor is frequently described as the easiest brachy, I'd say niveum is easier. One thing is for sure- bellatulum has been the hardest. From what I have seen, brachy's are among the easiest paphs to get to spike, but bellatulum (and possibly thaianum, don't really know) are very prone to blasting, while the others are easier to bring to bloom. Aside from bellatulum, they are easier to grow than frequently given credit for. But....not long lived overall. The insigne group is all over the place...ranging from easy bloom/easy growth (insigne...including sanderianum), easy bloom/less easy growth (villosum, gratrixianum, spicerianum) to easy growth/hard to bloom (henryanum) and simply hard all around (charlesworthii). Timing of bloom is a problem....insigne, villosum, etc spike in the fall, so blooms usually make it. But helenae and barbigerum spike in summer, and frequently, if not usually blast because of the heat. I have high hopes for my spiking helenae now........Multi's are over the place. The lowii group is mostly easy, with haynaldianum easiest for both growth and bloom, lowii maybe even easier to bloom but harder to keep alive, and parishii (and dianthum?) hard for both. (Of the group, dianthum is the only one I have never bloomed.) I find the roth group very problematical. Not easy to grow or bloom. Philipinense is easy to grow, very hardy, rarely blooms. Roth, sanderianum, etc...do not thrive even when they live for years. The praestans group is easier for both growth and bloom, but still tends to commit suicide after a point. Cochlo's are generally easy, but have cranky individuals. I've had primulinums that refused to bloom, others that were easy. Parvi's....don't get me started. All over the place. Original delanatii was hard....modern delanatii is among the easiest paphs to both grow and bloom. 
Armeniacum and micranthum....not easy to grow, but not difficult overall. Very difficult to bloom. Malipoense...easier to grow, very hard to bloom. Emersonii????? (and I believe hangianum) Arghhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Slow as ****
to grow, but hardy.....after many years, easy to bloom. Followed by death the next year. Any pattern? I find it interesting that some of the hardest to keep alive (mastersianum, violascens, some brachy's) are still so easy to bloom. It may be that their constitution can't handle both growth and bloom except under the most ideal conditions.


----------



## Cheyenne (Sep 6, 2012)

Rick said:


> The high potassium feed using RO or rain water, is almost universal paph trauma. No where in the environment of any paph species (or just about any orchid for that matter) is potassium present in concentrations greater than the calcium and magnesium. So if you are trying to replicate nature, then the chemical environment in the root zone is something you are way off target on if you are using a high K fert. Also, when fertilizing at 100 ppm N, you are still offering the plant more in a single feeding than it would experience over months to a full year. The giant barbata types on windowsills often get little or no fert, and tap water (full of soluble Ca/Mg and virtually no K). For some reason because we plant people think of fertilizer as food, we think that it can go to our plants in unlimited quantities without any issues. However, inorganic fertilizers are really salts and not food, and really work under the rules of toxicology.



Nope, mix in about one third well water with a good amount of cal and mag from close to a limestone quarry. Feed at around 50 maybe 60 ppm every two weeks, winter sometimes longer, usually with msu or klite other times its cal nitrate or mag sulfate or seaweed extract. I personally always thought people use to much fertilizer. Plants can make there own energy from the environment (light, oxygen, etc). Fert is not plant food but only to supply the plant with nutrients to make more compounds and sugars. I especially don't like to use alot of artificial fert, I like a worm tea or nitrogen fixing microbes more. The problem is not to much fert and definitely not to much K.


----------



## Stone (Sep 6, 2012)

An interesting thread! Eric, do I notice a pattern in that many of the pahs you are finding difficult experience cool to cold conditions in habitat ( charls., bell., vill.,micranth.,armen., emers. etc). Are your temps too warm or not enough drop at night? Just a thought....
But generally I agree with Rick that overfeeding has and continues to be a big issue when it comes to success or otherwise.
It is very hard for newcommers - especially - to have it sink in that you just don't have to feed most orchids (particularly slow growers) very much at all.
But even after so many years of growing, I STILL find myself thinking ''I had better feed this thing, I wouldn't want it to starve....and maybe it would do even better if I give it a bit extra''....
Its a difficult thing to resist!
Its also funny that I/we tend to give our newest aquisitions too much love until we get something new and that after we begin to ''forget'' the other ones, they start to improve:rollhappy:
#1 mistake I would say that we all make:
Feeding something that isn't doing well when we should be feeding those that are, and giving nothing but water to those that aren't.


----------



## Rick (Sep 6, 2012)

We've had a similar debate over whether or not blooming represents the epitome of health and good growing or a last ditch effort of a plant on its last legs in poor growing conditions. From what I've been experiencing and working with this nutrition thing over the years, I think that both concepts may be viable indicators of health or distress. I think it also led to the practice of snipping spikes on young plants (which I think is more of a tail wagging dog type of concept). I think health and ease of growing should be prioritized on the vegetative portion of the plant before worrying about whether or not it flowers.

Also as I spend more time pollinating, producing seed, and growing stuff out of flask, I can see that certain stages are more sensitive to shortcomings in culture, rather than having truly different requirements.

On the one hand, yes there are 30,000 different orchid species across the planet, but I seem to be able to get 300 or so to do OK to great together in 144 square ft of space, getting watered and fed the same thing. I'd like to think that I have them situated in their own little microhabitat, getting their own special needs taken care of, but when I put probes and other measuring devices around the GH, the sum of conditions is probably about 90% the same for every plant in there.


----------



## Rick (Sep 6, 2012)

Stone said:


> Its a difficult thing to resist!
> 
> Feeding something that isn't doing well when we should be feeding those that are, and giving nothing but water to those that aren't.



I know. So now when I get the urge to feed I go and look at the 50 ft poplar tree that I planted 12 years ago when it was only 1 ft high. It has never been fed or watered (other than rain). It's bloomed fantastically the last three springs. If the tree can grow 50 ft of biomass in 12 years, then why should I worry about feeding a 12" tall paph?


----------



## Eric Muehlbauer (Sep 6, 2012)

"Are your temps too warm or not enough drop at night? Just a thought...."
That is actually the least of my problems. From April through Oct. my plants are outdoors...warm growers beginning of May to end of Sept. Coolest growers come in in November. My cool growers are kept in an unheated room, where winter days will be in the 70's, nights in the 50's. (40's in extreme cold.) The ones in the rest of my house will drop to the low 60's at night, although the window greenhouse gets colder. So I think temperature may be the only thing I get right......


----------



## abax (Sep 7, 2012)

I find all Paphs. easy to grow and keep the foliage looking
pristine, however, getting them to bloom is not so easy.
I only have 30 Paphs. and most are Brachys and most are
still relatively small, but generally I'm quite happy with
K-Lite, high humidity and LOTS of air movement.


----------



## Stone (Sep 7, 2012)

Rick said:


> I know. So now when I get the urge to feed I go and look at the 50 ft poplar tree that I planted 12 years ago when it was only 1 ft high. It has never been fed or watered (other than rain). It's bloomed fantastically the last three springs. If the tree can grow 50 ft of biomass in 12 years, then why should I worry about feeding a 12" tall paph?



Have a look at the dS/m on the kovachii link on the other thread..
Habitat 1..0.4 dS/m, Habitat 2...0.2 dS/m. I've been feeding my paphs at between 0.3 and 0.4 every 3rd watering which is about 1/8 recommended. 
I can't work out the EC thing though


----------



## Mocchaccino (Sep 7, 2012)

abax said:


> I find all Paphs. easy to grow and keep the foliage looking
> pristine, however, getting them to bloom is not so easy.
> I only have 30 Paphs. and most are Brachys and most are
> still relatively small, but generally I'm quite happy with
> K-Lite, high humidity and LOTS of air movement.



Agree. Getting them bloom is much harder than keeping them alive. 

I feel reluctant to use the word "difficult" since the difficulty of cultivating a species depends very much on how your conditions are. For instance, icranthum and armeniacum grow pretty well under cool conditions. But they are considered to be the most challenging species in tropical ground areas since the average temperature is too high for them. 

But generally i would still put certain species under the category of "difficult species". Since these species are seldom reported to be grown well around the globe. These might be adductum, anitum, wentworthianum, papuanum, randsii and violascens, anymore???


----------



## Rick (Sep 7, 2012)

Stone said:


> Have a look at the dS/m on the kovachii link on the other thread..
> Habitat 1..0.4 dS/m, Habitat 2...0.2 dS/m. I've been feeding my paphs at between 0.3 and 0.4 every 3rd watering which is about 1/8 recommended.
> I can't work out the EC thing though



Mike EC or conductivity is a total measure of "salt activity" and may have nothing to do with the components of a fertilizer mix at any given spot in the world.

I work with natural (fresh) waters that have conductivity values from 10 to 4000 useimens/cm and they have no significant nitrogen phosphorus or potassium in them. I can read a lot into a sample of water by knowing the hardness (Ca/Mg concentrations), and conductivity, but I really wouldn't be able to say much about its nutritional value.

Although NPK are key metabolic constituents for all plant/animal species they are also toxic at certain levels and are indicator toxicants of dysfunctioning systems. Ammonia, and nitrite are highly toxic to freshwater organisms at low single digit ppms. Nitrate is less toxic acutely but causes chronic toxicity at values as low as 20ppm for many organisms, and algae blooms down around 5ppm. These forms of nitrogen are not commonly available in the natural world. Potassium is also not common in the environment and toxic to many organisms at fertilizer strength.


----------



## eggshells (Sep 7, 2012)

Cheyenne said:


> I think alot of the species that are hard we just don't know that much about there conditions, or the right information. Like adductum and anitum, I had a problem with them at first. Then researched a little more found out they like alot of shade, alot!!! They like a more acidic media and respond better to ammonical fert. Now I haven't lost one in years. Emersonii, hangianum and company, pretty much all the parvi's experience very different seasons. You get that right and they are pretty easy and fast growing. You don't get it right and they do nothing and slowly die. I find the hardest plants are the ones that are slower to get going because there is more time to do something wrong. That said, for some reason I find the barbata and or maudiae types the hardest, I am missing something there. Other people can grow enormous plants on a window sill with multiple spikes.



I agree with you on the adductum. I am growing mine under 500 fcs and boy It does make a big difference. My plant right now is looking good compared to when I got it. Leaves are bigger, wider and greener. I think because it's a multifloral, people think that it needs bright light but in fact it needs so little. I give my other paphs more light than these suckers.


----------



## wonderlen3000 (Sep 7, 2012)

This is pretty good topic....the paph are all over the places in term of ease of growing and getting to flower. 

I say the insigne group is the easiest one to grow and bloom as a group. The plant also are very long live and some species like charlesworthii, spicerianum, gratrixianum are line breeded to perfection. The only concern is keeping the bud alive to make it to flowering stage, as some are very prone to bud blast (tigrinum, hirsutisismum, henryanum) and thats mainly due to temperature issue as the bud cant handel summer heat and low humidity.

Barbata group range from easy to just plain pain in the #$$. callosum, barbata n related species are very easy and long live. Other like urbanianum, appletonianum, purpurantum are still easy. hookerae is slow growing, but the bloom is very long lasting so it kindda even out. I say the mastersianum group is the most notorious one, as they don't live very long, perhaps 4-5 years after reaching blooming size, and most just bloom and die.


----------



## Cheyenne (Sep 7, 2012)

eggshells said:


> I agree with you on the adductum. I am growing mine under 500 fcs and boy It does make a big difference. My plant right now is looking good compared to when I got it. Leaves are bigger, wider and greener. I think because it's a multifloral, people think that it needs bright light but in fact it needs so little. I give my other paphs more light than these suckers.



Also on the adductum I noticed that they grow better and more plentiful roots when they are left in there pot until the bark really starts to decay and acidify. Whenever I repot to fresh mix they seem to stall. So last year I didn't repot(2 year old bark) and two of my blooming size plants took off faster than I have ever seen them grow and put up spikes, then new growths. They are supposed to grow in decaying fern roots with a low ph. I am trying fern roots now. Hope for the best.


----------



## Susie11 (Sep 7, 2012)

I am a newbie too so I can't really add anything at this point but I do still have all of the ones that I started out with last year and I haven't lost any yet! The only problem paph for me so far is my ever-so-easy to bloom Maudiae alba which is taking forever to do nothing. My wardii and Hung Sheng Venus and even venutsum are all blooming and doing fine it is just the stubborn Maudiae that is making me mad, argh!!


----------



## Rick (Sep 7, 2012)

eggshells said:


> I agree with you on the adductum. I am growing mine under 500 fcs and boy It does make a big difference. My plant right now is looking good compared to when I got it. Leaves are bigger, wider and greener. I think because it's a multifloral, people think that it needs bright light but in fact it needs so little. I give my other paphs more light than these suckers.



My supardii and sanderianum also prefer to be at the darker end of the GH shaded by overhead plants.


----------



## The Mutant (Sep 7, 2012)

It's very interesting to read what you more experienced growers have to say (and you too Susie  ) regarding this question.

The major part of my collection consists of _Sigmatopetalum_ and almost all of them are young, single growth plants. I think that for me, the first step will be to get them all to grow more fans, if I can accomplish that I think I might consider myself fairly capable of caring for parts of this subgenus. Problem is that the infamous violascens and mastersianum are also part of the subgenus, and, well, those two we'll just have to see what happens with.

I would say that most of my Paph collection consists of young, single growth plants and that more fans all around are desirable, and that I one day might be able to bloom one or two of my _Polyantha_ and _Polyantha_ hybrids. 

As for now, I'm too new to know which species I'll find the most difficult, but so far the plant I've had the most problems with is a roth.


----------



## Rick (Sep 7, 2012)

Stone said:


> Have a look at the dS/m on the kovachii link on the other thread..
> Habitat 1..0.4 dS/m, Habitat 2...0.2 dS/m. I've been feeding my paphs at between 0.3 and 0.4 every 3rd watering which is about 1/8 recommended.
> I can't work out the EC thing though



Mike
It looks like from Hab 1, dS/meter= 0.41 and for Hab 2 = 0.19 dS/M

dS/meter is really the same as milli mhos or milli siemens per cm

All my comparative conductance values are in micro siemens/cm, so just need to multiply by 1000.

So Hab 1 = 410 usiemens/cm and Hab 2 = 190 usiemens/cm

From a standpoint of a normal stream or river water these are pretty normal. The conductivity of the tap water here in Nashville is 200 useimens. The conductivity of my crusty @[email protected]^% well water is 680 to 800useimens. So Hab one EC is just about half as salty as my well water straight up. But I also know that my well water has virtually no N and K in it. All the EC comes from the salts of Ca, Mg, and dash of Na(sodium). The anions are primarily sulfate and bicarbonate, and a dash of chloride.


----------



## Stone (Sep 7, 2012)

Rick said:


> Mike
> It looks like from Hab 1, dS/meter= 0.41 and for Hab 2 = 0.19 dS/M
> 
> dS/meter is really the same as milli mhos or milli siemens per cm
> ...



Yes Rick I know what EC and dS/m is. Maybe I wasn't being very clear.
I was trying to illustrate how low (I presume of the natural kovachii substrate)
the EC or dS/m was and that it was similar to the strength I'm using when I dilute my fertilizer solution.
The column with the percentages under EC, I don't get
Have you mesured the EC of your final fertilizer solution? What is it?
Example: A solution of Calcium nitrate supplying 100 ppm of N has an EC of 0.84 dS/m which is too high for pahs already I reckon. Add everything else and your way over the top. IMO you should never rely on manufactures instructions on the fert packet and just halve or quarter that or whatever.
Thats why I always make up my solution with warm water and then add water to bring down the EC to 0.3 dS/m or whatever I want. If I want to add Kelp or fish or someting, I just recheck and bring it back down to 0.3.
You can't go wrong
If you are using Urea, you must allow for it by increasing your mesured EC by 1.5 dS/m for every g of Urea/L you are using.
The constituents and balance of your fertilizer is very important but the EC is absolutly paramount!!


----------



## Rick (Sep 8, 2012)

No I don't go by EC, but by calculated ppm.

As illustrated in comparing the habitat EC's to surface water EC's versus fertilizer EC's they don't have any relevancy. 

You can generate EC from any individual salt (KCL, NaCl, NaHCO3, CaNO3.....) and or from combination of salts as in a fert mix. But the plants reaction to the same EC from any of those individual salts or combinations will be totally different.

The ion combinations for the habitat EC's produced by rain water running over and through limestone rock will not be comparable to the ion combinations that produce the EC of your fert mix. I understand that going from one batch of fert to the next, you can do a better job of making sure the concentrations of your salts in your fert mix are the same each time, but you can't use the EC value of of a limestone seep water to figure out how much nitrogen phosphorus or potassium the wild plants see.


----------



## Stone (Sep 8, 2012)

Rick said:


> > No I don't go by EC, but by calculated ppm.
> 
> 
> How do you actually mesure the amount of your fertilizer? Is it so much fert in a spoon or by weight?
> ...


----------



## Susie11 (Sep 8, 2012)

The Mutant said:


> It's very interesting to read what you more experienced growers have to say (and you too Susie  ) regarding this question.
> 
> The major part of my collection consists of _Sigmatopetalum_ and almost all of them are young, single growth plants. I think that for me, the first step will be to get them all to grow more fans, if I can accomplish that I think I might consider myself fairly capable of caring for parts of this subgenus. Problem is that the infamous violascens and mastersianum are also part of the subgenus, and, well, those two we'll just have to see what happens with.
> 
> ...



I believe that you were having problems with the roots on your Roth- no live ones left. Did you ever manage to save it or is that why I read on another thread that you are planning to buy another one? They do seem like tricky paphs for the inexperienced grower. I am considering whether to get one myself. I know that I will get one one day but as I am so new to the genus maybe after a few more years. My paphs are doing well though, I have new growths and blooms coming on so I can't complain.


----------



## The Mutant (Sep 8, 2012)

Susie11 said:


> I believe that you were having problems with the roots on your Roth- no live ones left. Did you ever manage to save it or is that why I read on another thread that you are planning to buy another one? They do seem like tricky paphs for the inexperienced grower. I am considering whether to get one myself. I know that I will get one one day but as I am so new to the genus maybe after a few more years. My paphs are doing well though, I have new growths and blooms coming on so I can't complain.


At the moment, I have three roths, one from Schwerter (it's the one without any roots, except it now has one tiny root and three new growths as a desperate last attempt apparently  ), one from Popow, and one from Asendorfer. I'm expecting two more roths by the end of the month, but this time from Orchid Inn.

I'm more new to the Paph genus than you are, but as long as you get a roth with a healthy root system, I don't see why you shouldn't try one.  My acclaimed 'MM', for example, is doing great and grows like a weed (for a roth that is). As far as I've understood it, the thing you need most of when growing roths, is patience. :wink:

It's the only Paph species that I have several of, otherwise I prefer having only one of each of the species I'm interested in.


----------



## Shiva (Sep 9, 2012)

There are two kinds of paphs for me: those that flower well and repeatedly and those that don't. I have good success with multiflorals and very little with the other kinds. It seems that some of these other paphs tend to bloom soon after I buy them, and then never flower again. Thus it makes sense for me to go for multiflorals and sell, trash or give away the other paphs in my collection that are not doing so good. Finicky plants really don't do it for me.


----------



## Susie11 (Sep 9, 2012)

The Mutant said:


> At the moment, I have three roths, one from Schwerter (it's the one without any roots, except it now has one tiny root and three new growths as a desperate last attempt apparently  ), one from Popow, and one from Asendorfer. I'm expecting two more roths by the end of the month, but this time from Orchid Inn.
> 
> I'm more new to the Paph genus than you are, but as long as you get a roth with a healthy root system, I don't see why you shouldn't try one.  My acclaimed 'MM', for example, is doing great and grows like a weed (for a roth that is). As far as I've understood it, the thing you need most of when growing roths, is patience. :wink:
> 
> It's the only Paph species that I have several of, otherwise I prefer having only one of each of the species I'm interested in.



Wow, three? You are hard core!! I wouldn't dare get one just yet. I have two charles's. That is my favourite type I think. I have two paphs coming at the end of the month from Orchid Inn as well, I can't wait. I think that my love affair with albums only is finally over. I have two coloured ones now, well I will do when Sam get's here. I love parishii the most as far as multi florals go. I have one from Elsner with a 14 inch leaf span but so far no sign of anything exciting happening. I might get a Roth next but there are others than I would like more first.


----------



## billc (Sep 9, 2012)

Susie11 said:


> I might get a Roth next but there are others than I would like more first.



You might change your mind if you ever bloom one. There's nothing like it!

Bill


----------



## Rick (Sep 9, 2012)

Stone said:


> Rick said:
> 
> 
> > How do you actually mesure the amount of your fertilizer? Is it so much fert in a spoon or by weight?
> ...


----------



## The Mutant (Sep 9, 2012)

Susie11 said:


> Wow, three? You are hard core!! I wouldn't dare get one just yet. I have two charles's. That is my favourite type I think. I have two paphs coming at the end of the month from Orchid Inn as well, I can't wait. I think that my love affair with albums only is finally over. I have two coloured ones now, well I will do when Sam get's here. I love parishii the most as far as multi florals go. I have one from Elsner with a 14 inch leaf span but so far no sign of anything exciting happening. I might get a Roth next but there are others than I would like more first.


I don't know why, but I'm completely sold on roths and I've never even laid eyes on a blooming one IRL! :rollhappy:

Parishii are very VERY cute, but since I have limited space I can't get too many multifloras and since I've been invaded by roths, there's just no room left. I would love a lowii though, and a Bernice, and a Chiu Hua Dancer, and... Ah, well, you see how bad I've got it, right? :wink:

For now I have a philippinenense var. roebelenii BS from Elsner that would have bloomed if I hadn't let it dry out too much, a MK that might bloom next year if I'm lucky, and a PEoY that's estimated to reach BS in 3-4 years. There will be some time before I'll see any multifloras IRL in other words. :rollhappy:


----------



## Shiva (Sep 9, 2012)

IMO every serious paph grower has to have a few roths and sandies in his collection. I have five of each including a roth in low bud that seems to have changed its mind for now and decided to send new shoots instead. Patience is really much needed these days.


----------



## Rick (Sep 9, 2012)

Stone said:


> No but you can use that information to give you a good idea as to how much salinity they have evolved with or are receiving.



Or try this one. Marine water has an EC of ~ 50,000us/cm and it's TDS is made up of roughly 70% NaCL.

So by your logic I should be able to put salt water organisms into any salt solution with an EC of 50,000 us/cm.??? 

But what we (every tox lab in the world that has tried it) have observed is that if you put salt water evolved organisms into a salt solution that is made up from 100% NaCl, with an EC of 50,000 us/cm, that these organisms will be dead in roughly 48 hours. Until we add back a portion of the other 30% salt species (Mg, Ca, K, SO4) you cannot get salt water evolved organisms to survive in a salt solution at EC 50,000. Furthermore it takes a combination of all 4 of the major cations to make it work (you can't just take 2 or 3).

The practical application of this came from the major salt manufactures. They have huge piles of refined NaCL that are exposed to rainwater. So they have to monitor the stormwater that comes off the salt piles (even if it goes into the ocean). They use EC meters to keep track of how much "salt" comes off the pile and assumed that 50,000 was "safe" since that's the same as ocean water. So they were convinced that the toxicity of their stormwater release was due to something other than salt (like trace copper), but we figured out it was just the salt imbalance.

EC is such a huge paint brush. Its like saying that because plants are GREEN, and I eat plants, I should be able to ingest anything GREEN and thrive on it.

But for purposes of calibrating the strength of a proven salt solution it is an invaluable, cheap and easy tool.


----------



## Stone (Sep 9, 2012)

Rick said:


> > So by your logic I should be able to put salt water organisms into any salt solution with an EC of 50,000 us/cm.???
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## NYEric (Sep 9, 2012)

Shiva said:


> IMO every serious paph grower has to have a few roths and sandies in his collection. I have five of each including a roth in low bud that seems to have changed its mind for now and decided to send new shoots instead. Patience is really much needed these days.




Hmmm.. I dont have any!


----------



## Eric Muehlbauer (Sep 9, 2012)

Mutant- You can always find room for parishii. It doesn't require as much light to bloom, can do with the same light intensity as haynaldianum, which does well for me in the same place as barbata's. Just needs it cooler. It's not easy, but at least I've been able to bloom it...I can't even bloom a roth hybrid.


----------



## The Mutant (Sep 9, 2012)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> Mutant- You can always find room for parishii. It doesn't require as much light to bloom, can do with the same light intensity as haynaldianum, which does well for me in the same place as barbata's. Just needs it cooler. It's not easy, but at least I've been able to bloom it...I can't even bloom a roth hybrid.


I think I'll wait before getting any more multifloras. I have those that I REALLY want (except Chiu Hua Dancer) but I'm still short on some more barbata species and a helenae.


----------



## Stone (Sep 10, 2012)

Rick said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > > The "salinity" of what the plants evolved to is not relevant to the "salinity" you are exposing them too with fertilizer.
> ...


----------



## Susie11 (Sep 10, 2012)

The Mutant said:


> I don't know why, but I'm completely sold on roths and I've never even laid eyes on a blooming one IRL! :rollhappy:
> 
> Parishii are very VERY cute, but since I have limited space I can't get too many multifloras and since I've been invaded by roths, there's just no room left. I would love a lowii though, and a Bernice, and a Chiu Hua Dancer, and... Ah, well, you see how bad I've got it, right? :wink:
> 
> For now I have a philippinenense var. roebelenii BS from Elsner that would have bloomed if I hadn't let it dry out too much, a MK that might bloom next year if I'm lucky, and a PEoY that's estimated to reach BS in 3-4 years. There will be some time before I'll see any multifloras IRL in other words. :rollhappy:


I have decided what I want to order from Sam when he comes back in the spring, a P.E.oY and a lowii. I have decided that I shall give a few more multis a go seeing as my parishii is still alive after five months and is also growing it's first new leaf! 




billc said:


> You might change your mind if you ever bloom one. There's nothing like it!
> 
> Bill


Hmm well I am going to get a Roth hybrid next year, I am getting a PEoY! So that is like getting the King and Queen of paphs. If that one does well in my care I shall then get the real deal...'If'...


----------



## Rick (Sep 10, 2012)

Stone said:


> Rick said:
> 
> 
> > Stone said:
> ...


----------



## Stone (Sep 10, 2012)

Rick said:


> > I agree that every plant (and animal) has evolved to tolerate certain levels of salinity, but the point you keep missing is that the "salinity" they have evolved to tolerate is a very specific mixture of anions and cations (which is generally very different from that mix in ferts).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Rick (Sep 11, 2012)

Stone said:


> Rick said:
> 
> 
> > Are you saying that as long as your ion mix is right then EC can go high without effects? Forget about the specific effects of specific ions for a moment. I'm talking about the effect ANY salt in high concentration has on the osmotic potential of the roots way before it can have a specific effect on the plant such as burned leaves or whatever.
> ...


----------



## Rick (Sep 11, 2012)

http://redsalinidad.com.ar/assets/files/revisiones/lauchli grattan.pdf

Here's a paper on "salt" tolerance specific to plants.

However on pg 12 the effects to rice exposed to straight NaCL versus synthetic sea salt are pretty much the same as for the topsmelt and mysid shrimp examples I gave.

Later in the text there are highlights how effects change based on other ion concentrations (particularly Ca).

Basically the agricrops covered in this work behave in similar ways to the critters I work with (barring absolute magnitude of effect for individual species).


----------



## NYEric (Sep 13, 2012)

Answer: canhii! :evil:


----------



## Cheyenne (Sep 13, 2012)

Eric, now I know that you are not saying that from personal experience. :evil:


----------



## eggshells (Sep 13, 2012)

NYEric said:


> Answer: canhii! :evil:



Were you able to find one?? You don't have to answer if you can't publicly! Send me a PM!:drool:


----------



## NYEric (Sep 13, 2012)

I'll send you a PM.


----------



## Cheyenne (Sep 13, 2012)

Eggshells, didn't someone in Canada post one a while ago, I thought it was John. I could be wrong, but I remember thinking it must be nice to live in Canada and be able to get stuff like that. So there must be a source.


----------



## eggshells (Sep 13, 2012)

Hmm no I don't remember. If not I haven't seen it. I want this species now!


----------

