# Paph. tigrinum 'Dana'



## John M (Jul 5, 2013)

This plant has lost all it's roots twice in the past few years. 'Finally figured out that it likes a Cattleya type mix and not the usual finer mix normally used for Paphs. This bud began poking out of the leaves last October. It finally opened just a few days ago.


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## eggshells (Jul 5, 2013)

Very nice!


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## emydura (Jul 5, 2013)

That is a stunning clone John. One of the best I've seen. The petals are held so flat. 

The coarser mix makes sense as this species often grows as an epiphyte.


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## John M (Jul 6, 2013)

Thank you both. 

David, I hadn't realized that tigrinum sometimes grew as an epiphyte. I had such trouble with it over and over. It kept getting rotten roots. Then, this chunky, very open mix of CHC, pea gravel and a lot of chopped up styrofoam peanuts did the trick and it finally came back from the brink. As the last old growth died away, a new growth (the one blooming now), came up; but, it was slow to grow at first. As new roots grew, the new growth began to grow faster. Then, last fall, about the time that the bud appeared, a new start poked up. Now there's a second start just behind the first one. So, I'm hopeful that it will be happy now and begin to clump over the next couple of years. I'm tempted to self it; but, I won't. I'll let it grow and make a few more fans first. Although, I will use the pollen on other plants.


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## papheteer (Jul 6, 2013)

A great one, John!!!


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## Ozpaph (Jul 6, 2013)

Those petals are outstanding!


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## Chicago Chad (Jul 6, 2013)

That is an excellent tigrinum! I don't ever see these for sale at shows. If I do I will remember the loose mix made the difference for you. Thanks for the tip.


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## cnycharles (Jul 6, 2013)

Nice flower, nice observation and good correction!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## John M (Jul 6, 2013)

Thanks everyone. I wonder whatever happened to all those tigrinums pictured on Antec Lab's website? With so many excellent quality plants to breed with, the market should be knee deep in great tigrinums by now. Does anybody know what happened to Antec? What happened to their collection? Where are all those great plants now?


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## nathalie (Jul 6, 2013)

Whaou !!!!!! love !


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## Justin (Jul 6, 2013)

I heard the plants in the collection were not doing well...


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## fibre (Jul 6, 2013)

What a shape! This one is really great!


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## The Mutant (Jul 6, 2013)

All I have to say is:

:smitten:


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## Erythrone (Jul 6, 2013)

Oh my God...

Congrats....!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Paphman910 (Jul 6, 2013)

Wow! Beautiful!
:clap::clap::clap:


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## dodidoki (Jul 6, 2013)

I always amazed on men, who can let a tigrinum bloom anyway. I have one FS size, nice and strong plant and produces a new nice growth in every year, even more older growth produced a sheath in every year, but no more, always blasted.

This one is very-very nice, wide and flat petals are especially beautiful. CONGRATS!


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## SlipperFan (Jul 6, 2013)

Gorgeous, John. Now I know why my tigrinum seedling didn't make. Thanks for the tip - for next time (hopefully).


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## John M (Jul 6, 2013)

Thank you everybody. Even though I've had root rot problems with this clone, I've never had a bud blast. It's bloomed 2 or 3 times before, for me. The bud always shows up many months before it actually grows up and blooms. I water from above and spray with water every sunny day. I read that a lot of people have bud blast issues and they say to never get the bud wet. I get the bud wet every day. I don't think it's the water, I think it's stress that blasts the buds. I think that high humidity, intermediate temperatures, low light are part of what keeps this species happy. ....And an open, airy potting mix seems to be what's needed to keep the roots happy. They seem to like lots and lots of air, like a Cattleya.


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## Trithor (Jul 6, 2013)

Great cultural insight, thank you! 
Absolutely beautiful bloom, great shape and form.


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## SlipperKing (Jul 6, 2013)

Excellent clone as mentioned John. (nice to see you posting your flowers again). I had the same issues with root loss with traditional paph mixes as well. I believe one of our euorpean friends posted tigers grow better in a lower pH media. I think they were using tree fern.
I shreded up tree fern to 1.0 inch and shorter, mixed it with Orchiata 1:3, Orch:TF and I'm now getting great roots. The tree fern at this size creates a web matrix which could be consider an open mix for more air. I haven't tested the drain water yet but I'm expecting it to fall around 5.5 pH.


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## Erythrone (Jul 6, 2013)

I will wait for a division of your plant.... maybe in 10 years?


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## John M (Jul 6, 2013)

Rick, your treefern mix sounds perfect for the air requirements. If tigrinum often grows epiphytically, then it stands to reason that it likes things a bit more acid. Not a lot of limestone up in the trees! 

Erythrone,.....well, let's see how well I grow it now! If it continues to do really well, 2 or 3 good years growing should get it back up to dividing size.


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## Rick (Jul 6, 2013)

Chicago Chad said:


> That is an excellent tigrinum! I don't ever see these for sale at shows. If I do I will remember the loose mix made the difference for you. Thanks for the tip.



Mine are doing great in basket culture too. But I would say the big difference was going low K.

Loose mix could also mean poor fert retention (as a benefit to reduce over exposure to K).


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## Rick (Jul 6, 2013)

That's a great looking bloom John:clap:


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## Rick (Jul 6, 2013)

John M said:


> Not a lot of limestone up in the trees!



The geology in the area is volcanic, so not a lot of limestone on the ground either.

Recently dug up a paper on soil conditions in tropical serpentine forests. Even though serpentine (rock) has a high pH, the soil pH on Mt Kinabalu was acidic anyway. The combination of high rainfall flushing rates and vegetative overlay more than compensated for any alkalinity from the underlying rock. So we probably shouldn't assume that underlying geology always has significant impact on the pH in the rhyzosphere.


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## Erythrone (Jul 6, 2013)

John M said:


> Rick, your treefern mix sounds perfect for the air requirements. If tigrinum often grows epiphytically, then it stands to reason that it likes things a bit more acid. Not a lot of limestone up in the trees!
> 
> Erythrone,.....well, let's see how well I grow it now! If it continues to do really well, 2 or 3 good years growing should get it back up to dividing size.



:drool::drool::drool:


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## Stone (Jul 6, 2013)

Really really nice one John. I think you must breed from this one eventually.


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## Stone (Jul 6, 2013)

Rick said:


> The geology in the area is volcanic, so not a lot of limestone on the ground either.
> 
> Recently dug up a paper on soil conditions in tropical serpentine forests. Even though serpentine (rock) has a high pH, the soil pH on Mt Kinabalu was acidic anyway. The combination of high rainfall flushing rates and vegetative overlay more than compensated for any alkalinity from the underlying rock. So we probably shouldn't assume that underlying geology always has significant impact on the pH in the rhyzosphere.



Agree totally! We should always start with an acid mix and slowly adjust up if needed. I got a new pH meter the other day and checked the pour through of several pots. They all came up at about 7.5 so I obviously over applied the lime but they are growing well nevertheless. Next time I will use 1/2 or 1/4 the amount or maybe none as it turns out my mains water is over 7 too!


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## Stone (Jul 6, 2013)

Rick said:


> Mine are doing great in basket culture too. But I would say the big difference was going low K.
> 
> Loose mix could also mean poor fert retention (as a benefit to reduce over exposure to K).



I also have one in a basket that is doing very well. I hang it up where it dries out quickly and it seems to enjoy this position.


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## NYEric (Jul 7, 2013)

thanks for sharing. Looks like a big bloom on a small plant!


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## Rick (Jul 7, 2013)

Stone said:


> Agree totally! We should always start with an acid mix and slowly adjust up if needed. I got a new pH meter the other day and checked the pour through of several pots. They all came up at about 7.5 so I obviously over applied the lime but they are growing well nevertheless. Next time I will use 1/2 or 1/4 the amount or maybe none as it turns out my mains water is over 7 too!



http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29337

I don't know if you ever caught the above thread John (you were gone so long) but when using the Cichlid sand it was shocking how little it took to support pH in a pure sphagnum moss substrate.

What is the alkalinity and pH of your makeup water? If you have a very open mix, then pour through results may still be 99% the same as your irrigation water.

Naoki sent me a very interesting paper showing various effects to substrate pH by plants and fert. Moss and bark (by themselves) had very little effect on pH. Adding a plant and fertilizing it (using a fert with substantial ammonia) cratered the pH. The effects were reduced for media that were less water retentive.


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## John M (Jul 7, 2013)

Rick, I water in the summer with water from a nearby stream with varying makeup depending on how much rain we've had lately. I mist with R.O. water. In the winter, I use R.O. water exclusively. R.O. water pH is about 5.5, if I remember correctly.


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## papheteer (Jul 7, 2013)

John, what and how do you feed your plants? Also how do I make my photos look like yours? It's always a delight seeing your photos!!


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## John M (Jul 7, 2013)

I feed with Plant Prod 24-14-14 and 7-11-27. I alternate every 2 or 3 feedings. During the times of year that I'm not using water from the stream, I also add Calcium Nitrate. I add Epsom Salts during the summer months to keep the plants green. When I feed (about once a week in summer...once a month in winter), I just spray the plants heavily with a weak fertilzer solution (about 1/4 strength....equivalent to 1 ml per litre), not necessarily trying to get any into the pots. Of course, plenty does trickle down into the root zone anyway and aerial roots get a good dose of feed.

Thanks for the compliment on my photos. I have a crappy little camera. It's a Nikon Coolpix 2200 dinosaur @ just 2.2 megapixels. I use black velvet as background. Only shoot with natural light, never use a flash. and always take lots of photos of each angle that I want. That is to say: If I want a flower photo, face on....and a whole plant shot......that's just 2 photos that I want; but, I'll take 7 photos of each. I start with the exposure setting at the darkest setting = -2.0, then I'll take another at -1.7, and then at -1.3, -1.0, -0.7, -0.3 and lastly at 0. Depending on the subject and the light available, I'll also take one at +0.3 and +0.7 and +1.0, etc. One of them will be at the best exposure to show off the flower nicely. After that, I resize the photo, usually to about 50%, so it fits on our computer screens without having to scroll to see the whole thing (I hate that!) and I usually need to sharpen it a little bit. I'm very careful to not oversharpen, which is easy to do; but, it makes the photo look grainy. I also don't take photos with lots of wasted space around the subject, because by the time I crop out the extra and enlarge the subject, the photo loses quality. If I get right up to the subject and make it fill the frame, there is less cropping to do and that means less enlarging of the subject. This helps to get the detail I want without losing image quality in the editing process.


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## papheteer (Jul 7, 2013)

Thank you so much for the feeding AND photo tips!

It's nice to see you back here. Can't wait to see more parvi photos!!


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## atlantis (Jul 7, 2013)

*John*: this _tigrinum_ is HIGH QUALITY!!!

Congrats. Your patience has been rewarded. :clap:

Let´s see how it evolves in the new mix. Keep us informed, please.


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## John M (Jul 8, 2013)

atlantis said:


> Let´s see how it evolves in the new mix. Keep us informed, please.


 'Will do. And thanks for the kind words.


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## Spaph (Jul 8, 2013)

As everyone has said, a real nice one!


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## e-spice (Jul 8, 2013)

Gorgeous plant! Great job growing it. I have a couple of tigrinums and neither are doing well. I think I'll try a courser mix like you suggest. Thanks for the tip.



John M said:


> Thanks everyone. I wonder whatever happened to all those tigrinums pictured on Antec Lab's website? With so many excellent quality plants to breed with, the market should be knee deep in great tigrinums by now. Does anybody know what happened to Antec? What happened to their collection? Where are all those great plants now?



I have often wondered about this as well. The store on their site (ladyslipper.com) says they're taking off until September 5th 2005. I'm betting they're gone for good. I won a few ebay auctions from them. I remember their plants were incredibly neatly packaged. I would love to hear more details about what's going on with them.


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## SlipperKing (Jul 9, 2013)

e-spice said:


> Gorgeous plant! Great job growing it. I have a couple of tigrinums and neither are doing well. I think I'll try a courser mix like you suggest. Thanks for the tip.
> 
> 
> 
> I have often wondered about this as well. The store on their site (ladyslipper.com) says they're taking off until September 5th 2005. I'm betting they're gone for good. I won a few ebay auctions from them. I remember their plants were incredibly neatly packaged. I would love to hear more details about what's going on with them.



They were into horses
http://www.fhana.com/classifieds/details.php?unid=3421


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## JeanLux (Jul 9, 2013)

All has already been said John, and yes, it is a beauty !!!! Jean


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## John M (Jul 9, 2013)

SlipperKing said:


> They were into horses
> http://www.fhana.com/classifieds/details.php?unid=3421



Well, okay. But, what happened to all their plants? They're collection went way beyond being just another private commercial collection. The gene pool in their care had HUGE significant importance for the whole orchid world. They worked so hard to be the best and have the best and they absolutely achieved that goal. Their collection had practically gotten to the point of being a national treasure. I hope that as their interest in horses grew, that they continued to care for their plants properly over the years. But really, it makes no difference if the collection is no longer used for propagation. Lost to obscurity is just as bad as lost by dying. I have not heard of anybody buying stock plants from Antec and I've not heard of their stock being made avaiable to other commercial growers for propagation. Have I missed something? Or, did they and their collection simply disappear completely from the orchid world? God knows that in this day and age, governments are not going to step up and provide funding to maintain gene pools like Antec's collection. The responsibility is all up to the individual growers and nurseries that own the best of the best and the rarest plants to preserve the gene pool for the future.


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## Heather (Jul 9, 2013)

Interesting, and GORGEOUS!


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## Cheyenne (Jul 9, 2013)

I also would like to know what happened to antec. I have asked around to other vendors and nobody really had a answer. Bob doesn't seem to post anywhere anymore. The best answer I got from anyone was "there just not around anymore", what the heck does that mean?


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## e-spice (Jul 11, 2013)

There was an email on that horse posting. If someone here knows them enough they should drop them a line to see what's going on. I agree w/John, it seemed that the collection was a spectacular one and I am really curious if they're still maintaining it.


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## Heather (Jul 11, 2013)

He was around here for a bit but not since like 
'07. Haven't heard much. Did just send a friend request to Steve Topletz, who also hasn't been around for a long time. Maybe he knows. Then again, it doesn't look like he's been around FB since 2011. Only reason I was convinced it was the right guy was he's friends with Guido.


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## Trithor (Jul 13, 2013)

John, how has the flower held up? Are the petals still held as flat as they were when it was first posted?


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## John M (Jul 13, 2013)

Yes, the flower still looks exactly like it does in the photo. It was fully open and settled into it's final shape when I took the photograph. It looks no different now.

I really appreciate everyone's nice comments. It's made me realize even more how beautiful and special it really is. Thanks all.


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## emydura (Jul 13, 2013)

John M said:


> Yes, the flower still looks exactly like it does in the photo. It was fully open and settled into it's final shape when I took the photograph. It looks no different now.
> 
> I really appreciate everyone's nice comments. It's made me realize even more how beautiful and special it really is. Thanks all.



Award quality John. You should get it judged.


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## McPaph (Jul 22, 2013)

It looks really nice John. Love it


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## goldenrose (Jul 22, 2013)

Nice growing John - a beaut!!!:drool::drool::drool:


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## labskaus (Jul 22, 2013)

That tigrinum is worth the fight. I like it, esp. the shape is great.


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## Leo Schordje (Jul 24, 2013)

John M said:


> Well, okay. But, what happened to all their plants? They're collection went way beyond being just another private commercial collection. The gene pool in their care had HUGE significant importance for the whole orchid world. They worked so hard to be the best and have the best and they absolutely achieved that goal. Their collection had practically gotten to the point of being a national treasure. I hope that as their interest in horses grew, that they continued to care for their plants properly over the years. But really, it makes no difference if the collection is no longer used for propagation. Lost to obscurity is just as bad as lost by dying. I have not heard of anybody buying stock plants from Antec and I've not heard of their stock being made avaiable to other commercial growers for propagation. Have I missed something? Or, did they and their collection simply disappear completely from the orchid world? God knows that in this day and age, governments are not going to step up and provide funding to maintain gene pools like Antec's collection. The responsibility is all up to the individual growers and nurseries that own the best of the best and the rarest plants to preserve the gene pool for the future.



First, I am certain Bob and Lynn are well aware of the value of the genetic gene pool that exists (existed) in there collection. To what ever extent possible I am sure Bob & Lynn have done their best to preserve this collection. 

I have not had contact with them since about 2010 or earlier. Life interferes with the best of plans. Bob will revive AnTec when he has the time to. That is why they switched to selling on Ebay, they could put up or take down their store as time permitted. (time issues were multiple, including foreign travel, work etc)

I do not know how much of their collection they have retained. It is their private matter. I am certain they know the value of the genetics they collected. Genetics were specialties of both Bob and Lynn (one or more PhD's in this partnership) Bob's professional specialty was designing/developing vaccines. 

This leads me to my point. If you want to preserve a species, it must be preserved in its natural habitat. Captive populations (my basement light garden, private collections, public collections) do not survive long term. Even the best intentioned grower will have something go wrong. If you do the research, you will find only a few clones of any species that have survived longer than 25 years in captivity. Even fewer have made the 100 year mark. Majority fall victim to one accidental cause of death or another. I will list a few catastrophies that have killed entire collections, I won't cite who out of respect for privacy. Greenhouse freezes, or Greenhouse overheating, water shortage during local drought, sudden exotic fungi outbreak, fatal contaminate in a batch of fungicide, a political election rewarding the guy who should be mowing lawns with the job of curating the orchids, putting the orchid curator on mowing lawns-one massive public collection failure, divorce, heart attack, stroke, cancer, people often don't realize that as they get sick they don't take as good care of the plants as they should. By the time they wake up and say "I got to do something" its may be too late for the rarest of the collections. In the case of sudden death of a grower, survivors often don't know that they have to act quickly to save the plants. Can't wait for the local Orchid Society members auction 6 months later. Need I go on? I can cite names and dates and some of the material lost for each scenario I posed. Once a plant is removed from the wild, it is gone, functionally dead. 

Public collections are no better than individuals. I have seen the local botanic garden kill off an entire semi-trailer load of orchids, one plant at a time, so that in less than 10 years not a single surviving plant of a major collection remaind. Once a plant is ripped from the wild, functionally that unique combo of DNA is lost to the species gene pool for good. Don't kid yourselves by thinking somehow that collection of species you have is somehow 'saving' the species from extinction. It is not. The fantasy is pure delusion. The only way to preserve a species is to preserve sufficient natural habitat that it can keep a self sustaining population can thrive on its own without human intervention. As Guido would say. Full Stop, end of sentance.

So in summary, I do have a collection of species orchids. I do not kid myself that this is somehow saving those species from extinction. I recognize that my species collection, especially in the case of the clones I have that may have been wild collected originally, have further contributed to the decline and possible extinction of a species. There is no moral good being done by having a species collection. 

But the good news is, that by propagating species from seed, in quantity, we can lower collection pressure on wild populations. Phrag besseae was under huge collection pressure until the seed raised populations drove the price down. Now nobody needs to get a collected plant, for less than $50, often for less than $30 one can have a nice besseae with intense color and good form. No need to collect. 

Paph tigrinum has proven difficult for just about all growers. There is a need to develop seed populations to get a strain going that is adapted to our horticulture. John is on the right path with his and I am certain he will make seedlings when he thinks the plant is healthy enough to do so. 

End of soap box rant & great growing John. Nice tigrinum, one of the better ones I've seen.


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## GuRu (Jul 24, 2013)

Lovely tigrinum - to flower this beauty in the end was worth all of your efforts !


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## John M (Jul 26, 2013)

Thanks again for all your nice comments everyone.

Wow, Leo. Bummer commments! That's a very grim point of view and very much out of place in this thread. The term "Full Stop, end of Sentence" simply does not apply here. Nobody's opinion is that concrete and indisputable. There's plenty of room for debate on a number of your points. For one thing, you've commented in the wrong context. I was not expressing worry about the survival of plant species and their possible extinction. I was talking about the survival of plants (species *and* hybrids), that are important to the horticultural world ("orchid world"), meaning the plants in captivity which we must rely upon to produce future generations for us to grow and enjoy. My comments had nothing to do with the long-term survival of species, or conservation. MY concern was for the future availability of desireable plants (species *and* hybrids) and their progeny that will be available to hobbyists in the future. So, your "rant" is seriously out of place here. 

'Seems to me that it would've been better to start your own, new thread. If you would like to continue your doom and gloom commmentary, I ask you to do it in a new thread instead of hijacking this thread. Thanks.


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## Ozpaph (Jul 26, 2013)

Interesting view point, Leo. Food for thought.


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## SlipperKing (Jul 26, 2013)

I have to go along with John in that Leo got a little carried away. The problem I had with Antec, is making their selves a rescue center then dropped the ball. 

As for preservation goes, I got the plants now what do I do with them? Well what little I can do, I try my hardest to grow them the best I can (hence, ST) to a point I can divide and distribute divisions as wide and far as possible with hope the plants will live long past me. Leo, you should know that. By the way, how is that richteri doing? The praestans you sent is really doing great!
I also concentrate on hybridizing species only these days for the same purpose, distribution.


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## Trithor (Jul 27, 2013)

Ouch Leo, bad hair day? 

Good growing John!


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## John M (Jul 27, 2013)

Well, I bit the bullet and cut the stem. The plant had a leaf that felt just a little bit soft. I do not want to overtax it and since it was a small plant, I decided the sacrifice now would be good in the long run. I cut the stem a few days ago; but, tigrinum flowers don't do well as cut flowers. I expected to be able to enjoy it for a couple weeks; but, it's done already. After cutting the petals drooped, while the dorsal didn't! 'Looked really "hound dog-ish". The plant is fine and will now concentrate on maturing those two new growths. I'll self it the next time it blooms. This time was too soon.


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## Leo Schordje (Jul 30, 2013)

John M said:


> Thanks again for all your nice comments everyone.
> 
> Wow, Leo. Bummer commments! That's a very grim point of view and very much out of place in this thread. The term "Full Stop, end of Sentence" simply does not apply here. Nobody's opinion is that concrete and indisputable. There's plenty of room for debate on a number of your points. For one thing, you've commented in the wrong context. I was not expressing worry about the survival of plant species and their possible extinction. I was talking about the survival of plants (species *and* hybrids), that are important to the horticultural world ("orchid world"), meaning the plants in captivity which we must rely upon to produce future generations for us to grow and enjoy. My comments had nothing to do with the long-term survival of species, or conservation. MY concern was for the future availability of desireable plants (species *and* hybrids) and their progeny that will be available to hobbyists in the future. So, your "rant" is seriously out of place here.
> 
> 'Seems to me that it would've been better to start your own, new thread. If you would like to continue your doom and gloom commmentary, I ask you to do it in a new thread instead of hijacking this thread. Thanks.



Sorry John, you are right. Your point is accepted, and I apologize. I wasn't thinking about context. Your point triggered a whole rant, that really did not belong in your thread. I will promise to try to make myself step away from the keyboard when I feel a rant come on. It wasn't about you, rather that 'larger issues' and did not belong in your thread. 

Please accept my apology. 

By the way, I do mean it. Your tigrinum looks to be one of the best flowers I have seen for the species, good presentation. Many with wide petals do not have the petals face the viewer, they tend to twist upward. Yours is true an exceptional clone. Well grown too.


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## John M (Jul 30, 2013)

Thanks Leo. That was really nice of you to say. I do share your concern for the environment where these plants grow....and I'm afraid that I'm not an optimist either when it comes to trusting that people will preserve the wild places FOREVER. It just goes against human nature. However, as I indicated, that's a topic worthy of it's own thread.

Thanks for your nice comments about my plant. I've seen some with a nicer dorsal; but, the petals really are awesome on this clone.


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## JeanLux (Jul 31, 2013)

Bravo Leo and John !!!!! Jean


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## Trithor (Jul 31, 2013)

Thank you both, that is both admirable and professional


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