# Paph. philippinense var roebelinii problem



## eOrchids (Jul 4, 2008)

Hey all,

Happy 4th of July everyone!!! 

Anyway I have a problem with one of my Paph. Below is a picture of the problem. It starts from the center of the plant then spreads outward then onto the next "level" of the leaves. Color starts from tan then becomes brown!







Anyone know what causes this? How to cure it? Thanks!


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## paphioboy (Jul 4, 2008)

I think that's soft rot.. Unfortunately, your plant is already seriously affected . I think its because water has collected at the basal leaf axils or the 'crown' of the plant was too wet, and encourages the growth of some harmful fungus/bacteria. If I were you, I would remove those affected leaves and try to save the top 2/3 leaves. Be careful to scrub of all the remaining tissue at the base to prevent spread. If you just leave it as it is, eventually the whole growth collapses. I have had it affect 1 exul and 1 lowii..:sob:


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## NYEric (Jul 4, 2008)

And apply some fungicide and drying agent like Dragon's Blood.


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## SlipperFan (Jul 4, 2008)

I agree with both the above. Good luck -- by the time I see this much rot, it has gone into the base of the plant, and there is nothing left. Sometimes, on Phrags anyway, if the roots are good and the rot is stopped, you may get new growth.


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## dave b (Jul 4, 2008)

In addition to the good advice given already, id consider removing it from the hydro pot and going with a bark mix for a while. And/or, eliminate misting or spraying of water on the leaves if it was done in the past. Make sure there is adequate air movement on the plant. I have found this on a phrag from time to time, and i attack it quick. Be watchful of this on plants in the future, not letting it spread as far as this one has.

Sterilize your cutting tool after working on this guy, and wash your hands very well.


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## paphioland (Jul 4, 2008)

Rip the leaves off until you get clean tissue. Then stick it near the fan. I don't think you will be able to save that growth. If you know the clone is a good one you could try and wait to see if another growth pops up. If it wasn't such a great one I would toss it. Takes up bench space, has erwinia or psued all over it and will take a long time to blooming size. Sorry but this is the pain we all feel growing paphs. Try increasing your airmovement at least after you water.


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## Rick (Jul 4, 2008)

paphioboy said:


> I think that's soft rot.. Unfortunately, your plant is already seriously affected . I think its because water has collected at the basal leaf axils or the 'crown' of the plant was too wet, and encourages the growth of some harmful fungus/bacteria. If I were you, I would remove those affected leaves and try to save the top 2/3 leaves. Be careful to scrub of all the remaining tissue at the base to prevent spread. If you just leave it as it is, eventually the whole growth collapses. I have had it affect 1 exul and 1 lowii..:sob:


 It looks like Erwinia (as mentioned in other posts). It should have a kind of sweet fermenting smell.

Erwinia is a motile rod bacteria. I've lost an entire 15 growth phili to this stuff, and had it go after an exul too. It's not really caused by water in leaf axials, but if the plants active growth is not well supported, these bacteria cue into the plants lysing proteins when the plant is cutting away basal leaves to add new growths. Increased airflow and air humidity (not by misting) will help support the plant after the infected leaves are removed and Dragons Blood is applied. Orchids Limited recommends topical application of antibiotics, some folks apply cinnamon, and some try physan. This plant is pretty badly impacted, and the infection may have already spread into the crown.


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## Heather (Jul 5, 2008)

Definitely remove the infected leaves ASAP, Eric. 

Erwinia has a pretty distinct odor - medicinal. 
It's not fun. 

Also, isolate the plant away from your others and make sure you have more airflow where you relocate it. 

I've been trying to avoid rot setting in on my Mexi. since the hail damage and good airflow seems to be helping to keep it at bay.

Good luck!


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## eOrchids (Jul 8, 2008)

Thanks all!

I'll do what I can do to save the plant!


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## Frederick (Jul 8, 2008)

Erwinia has a disgusting sweetish smell. I've saved a number of plants similarly affected with an antifungal spray for rose bushes. Very potent--very effective--even when one crown was affected on a multigrowth William Amber. I sprayed twice a day everyday and added cinnamon for good measure. Of course the semi hydro won't help.
Happy growing
F.


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## Candace (Jul 8, 2008)

Why would an antifungal spray help a bacterial infection?? I believe fungicides are over-kill in this situation and won't solve the problem. As was suggested physan, a drying agent and or antibiotics will actually kill the bacterial problem. And like others said, I also believe the plant is too far gone...


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## Frederick (Jul 8, 2008)

Well, no need to be sharp, unpleasant and schoolmarmish. 

It is effective because there is a drying agent, Madam. And please don't use the word over-kill for others when you recommend using antibiotics. You should know that antibiotics must be used very sparingly.
F.


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## Candace (Jul 8, 2008)

Lol. Schoolmarm.:rollhappy:

Edit: I wasn't attempting to be sharp or unpleasant. Maybe there' s a language barrier here.... I seriously don't know why someone would use a fungicide for a bacterial infection. Am I being a ***** when I don't even know it now?? Usually I have to put effort into that!


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## Frederick (Jul 8, 2008)

There is no language barrier--I am bilingual and I can tell when somebody is being sharp and unpleasant. 
F.


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## NYEric (Jul 8, 2008)

I believe Candace's point was regarding bacteria vs fungicide. I think that the erwinia is accerbated by water mixing w/ dirt and dust and sitting in the axels [sic] of plants. The drying agent would help against that at least.


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## Rick (Jul 8, 2008)

Dragons Blood has allot more going for it than just a drying agent too. I've looked up several sources on it, and it's just about anti-everything. Lots of crazy phytochemicals in the stuff.

I've been through allot of different things before getting to DB, and found it works the best for me.

Some people have good luck with Phyton (Jack Barron of Barron's Orchids), which is not much more than copper and surfactant. This is also about as shotgun as anything else. I've not had it work consistently for me. I found a big Ag study on it's use, and it only "curred" the infected plants a few more percent better than the control plants that "cured" themselves to some extant.

I have not tried pharmaceutical antibiotics (primarily due to cost), but I found a company that sells antibiotics and hormones to the Ag community. I talked to one of their research pHD's about Erwinia and sounded quite knowledgeable. He was the person who told me about Erwinia cuing into the plants hormonal state to become active. Since Erwinia is a fermentatious species that promoting higher oxygen levels by improved air flow and keeping water out of the axials would help, but is not the cause of Erwinia. He suggested a couple of different antibiotics. Carbenocillin and I think Kanomycyn.

I also found a paper on how phosphorus deficient plants generally have reduced immunity to Erwinia. In looking at the timing of infection and the Paph species that seem to be the most effected, I think that the best prevention of Erwinia is going to end up being supporting the spring/summer growth burst of your plants by boosting phosphorus uptake by one form or another. I'm adding bone meal to potting mixes (lightly top dressing if not ready for repotting), soaking CHC in calcium/magnesium phophate mix, and watering my plants every few days with a dilute Ca/Mg phosphate mix. So far so good (keep your fingers crossed).


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## eOrchids (Jul 10, 2008)

Well the plant is gone!  Time to replace with a new one! 

Anyway what was weird was before the main growth was affected, it had occured on a side shoot. So what I did was cut it off and spread cinnamon on the open wound. Somehow it transfered itself to the main growth.


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## Rick (Jul 10, 2008)

eOrchids said:


> Well the plant is gone!  Time to replace with a new one!
> 
> Anyway what was weird was before the main growth was affected, it had occured on a side shoot. So what I did was cut it off and spread cinnamon on the open wound. Somehow it transfered itself to the main growth.



I've seen this before. It is a very aggressive disease once started.

Look up some of the threads started by Lance (Gone Wild) on dragons blood. It's the best thing I've come across. It can also seal the infection in one part of the plant to help stop the sreading problem.


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## Candace (Jul 10, 2008)

I really need to try the Dragon's Blood one of these days!


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## SlipperFan (Jul 10, 2008)

eOrchids said:


> Well the plant is gone!  Time to replace with a new one!


Sorry to hear that. This disease is nasty!


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## rdhed (Jul 10, 2008)

Just out of curiousity, is powdered Dragons Blood rusty red in color. I was in a shop here where I live and they had a jar with a powder in it labeled Dragons Blood. They also had dried chunks of it that looked like hardened sap. They were somewhat transluscent. I asked the owner what it was for and he had no idea. This shop reminded me of the old "head shops" only minus all the paraphernalia. It had more light catchers, incense, tie-dye, and fun items. He thought it was more for "fun spell casting". They also had other organic powdered items. I want to try it on my plants when needed, but I would like to know what powdered Dragons Blood looks like.


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## Rick (Jul 11, 2008)

rdhed said:


> Just out of curiousity, is powdered Dragons Blood rusty red in color. I was in a shop here where I live and they had a jar with a powder in it labeled Dragons Blood. They also had dried chunks of it that looked like hardened sap. They were somewhat transluscent. I asked the owner what it was for and he had no idea. This shop reminded me of the old "head shops" only minus all the paraphernalia. It had more light catchers, incense, tie-dye, and fun items. He thought it was more for "fun spell casting". They also had other organic powdered items. I want to try it on my plants when needed, but I would like to know what powdered Dragons Blood looks like.



That sounds like it. If you go to Lance's Shop Gone Wild (www.shopgonewild.com) web site they sell liquid and dry resin I believe.


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