# Paph. Spiderman



## SlipperFan (Oct 15, 2013)

(Michael Koopowitz '#12' x adductum v. anitum '#16')

Nice looking buds -- This will be its first blooming:


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## tomkalina (Oct 15, 2013)

Looks promising.......


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## emydura (Oct 15, 2013)

Your teasing us Dot. It looks like it is going to have nice long petals. I really like this hybrid. Heck I love all anitum hybrids.


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## Trithor (Oct 16, 2013)

Colour looks like it will be good too. Can't wait to see it fully open. I have a Jang-ji Apple at about the same stage of opening.


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## The Mutant (Oct 16, 2013)

Spiderman, Spiderman, 
Does whatever a spider can...

Looks promising and gorgeous photo as per-usual.


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## biothanasis (Oct 16, 2013)

nice!!!!!


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## NYEric (Oct 16, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> Spiderman, Spiderman,
> Does whatever a spider can...



I can't believe you're not married! :smitten:


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## Trithor (Oct 16, 2013)

This could get interesting


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## Cheyenne (Oct 16, 2013)

Can't wait to see it, this is a really great hybrid. I bloomed one about a year ago and it was amazing. Yours looks like it will be equally great. I can't wait for mine to bloom again. It is one of those plants I wish I bought multiples of.


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## Ozpaph (Oct 16, 2013)

NYEric said:


> I can't believe you're not married! :smitten:



????? huh


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## Paphman910 (Oct 16, 2013)

NYEric said:


> I can't believe you're not married! :smitten:



You are such a flirt with the ladies!


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## Paph_LdyMacBeth (Oct 16, 2013)

Such a tease! 
Cant wait for the results.


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## Ozpaph (Oct 17, 2013)

Paph_LdyMacBeth said:


> Such a tease!
> Cant wait for the results.



The flower or the internet flirting???


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## SlipperFan (Oct 17, 2013)

Update: it is opening...


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## Trithor (Oct 18, 2013)

That is looking super special!


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## The Mutant (Oct 18, 2013)

Looking real good! And again, wonderful photo.



NYEric said:


> I can't believe you're not married! :smitten:


:rollhappy:
Yeah, for some strange reason, the guys don't come running as soon as I start humming the Spiderman theme song, when watching pictures of Paphs... Can't understand why. :wink:



Paphman910 said:


> You are such a flirt with the ladies!


While having a girlfriend already, too! He's shameless I tell ya! :rollhappy:


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## SlipperKing (Oct 19, 2013)

It doesn't look like the dorsal will be really dark on the lower half. What do you see Dot?


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## Hera (Oct 20, 2013)

Looks very promising.


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## SlipperFan (Oct 20, 2013)

SlipperKing said:


> It doesn't look like the dorsal will be really dark on the lower half. What do you see Dot?


Not as dark as I hoped. I'll photograph it again when it's fully open.


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## abax (Oct 20, 2013)

I'm looking forward to seeing those looooong petals.


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## NYEric (Oct 21, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> :rollhappy:
> Yeah, for some strange reason, the guys don't come running as soon as I start humming the Spiderman theme song, ... Can't understand why. :wink:



If you lived in the USA they might, unfortunately about half would be nerdlets who still live with their Moms!


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## The Mutant (Oct 21, 2013)

NYEric said:


> If you lived in the USA they might, unfortunately about half would be nerdlets who still live with their Moms!


Nothing wrong with nerds! oke: As long as they don't still live at home that is...


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## NYEric (Oct 21, 2013)




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## SlipperFan (Oct 21, 2013)

Final photos:


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## SlipperKing (Oct 21, 2013)

Nice petals Dot


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## Trithor (Oct 22, 2013)

They have opened really well. I first thought they would carry that very nasty hooded sandy trait, but not at all! Good colour and great petals, this is going to be showstopper as a big plant.


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## AdamD (Oct 22, 2013)

Some may say it's light for anitum, but I love the color! Especially the contrast in the dorsal. It's a real winner. Congrats!


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## NYEric (Oct 22, 2013)

Looking good.


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## Cheyenne (Oct 22, 2013)

It looks very nice Dot. But with your trained eye(because I can't see the flowers in real life), do you see adductum/anitum influence in there? To me it looks like MK x sanderianum. Spiderman has long petals but the anitum really cuts the length down a little bit, yours look to sanderianum. Also anitums dorsal dominates usualy, at least in some color. Your dorsal and pouch look very sabderianum. Just wondering.


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## Trithor (Oct 22, 2013)

Don't you see anitum in that dorsal?


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## emydura (Oct 22, 2013)

Super nice Dot. Love the long petals.



Cheyenne said:


> It looks very nice Dot. But with your trained eye(because I can't see the flowers in real life), do you see adductum/anitum influence in there? To me it looks like MK x sanderianum. Spiderman has long petals but the anitum really cuts the length down a little bit, yours look to sanderianum. Also anitums dorsal dominates usualy, at least in some color. Your dorsal and pouch look very sabderianum. Just wondering.



I disagree. Looks like MK * anitum to my eyes. I can see anitum in the dorsal. The dorsal is narrow due to the sanderianum so it is not as pronounced as some anitum hybrids. MK x sanderianum has way longer petals than this. From what I have seen with anitum hybrids, it has no influence on the petal length. It seems to allow the other species to completely dominate, hence anitum hybrids tend to have very long petals. In fact in some hybrids, the petals seem longer than either parent.


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## SlipperFan (Oct 22, 2013)

I'm certainly not an expert when it comes to ID-ing parentage. This plant came from Piping Rock so I suspect and hope the tag is correct. The petals have grown a little since I photographed it, but they are nowhere near as long as my sanderianums' petals. I am disappointed that the dorsal isn't darker, but the pouch is quite dark as I had hoped.


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## Cheyenne (Oct 22, 2013)

I looked again and I still do not see it. Maybe the droid screen does not do it justice. But I seem to have the opposite opinion of the plants of this hybrids that I have seen compared to everyone else. When I visited a big nursery in Hawii I saw a good amount of spiderman in bloom at the time also some MK. All the spiderman had petals about half the length of the MK. Also the color on almost all of them was dark enough that you could spot it across the greenhouse that it was an anitum hybrid. I also bloomed about 5, 2 were from piping Rock. And they looked like anitum with extra long petals.Definitely had almost a straight anitum pouch with the slight marbling. I will see if I can find a pic. The only reason I asked was we are only talking 25% sanderianum and 50% anitum. Seemed like it would show through more. 
But who knows, Maybe I saw a bunch of mislabeled plants


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## Cheyenne (Oct 23, 2013)

Anyway, I was just asking if Dot saw it in there because she can see the flowers in real life. If she see's it then that is good enough for me. You never know how these crosses will come out.


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## SlipperKing (Oct 23, 2013)

I didn't push it out of respect for Dot but I was a bit concerned when I didn't see any darkening in the dorsal before the flowers open. I don't see any anitum either.


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## Ozpaph (Oct 23, 2013)

I love the long petals.
I see a bit of anitum in the stripping of the dorsal - a bit.


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## emydura (Oct 23, 2013)

Ozpaph said:


> I love the long petals.
> I see a bit of anitum in the stripping of the dorsal - a bit.



I agree. I can see it clearly although not as dominantly as some anitum hybrids. Don't forget this is a secondary hybrid, not a primary hybrid. So you are going to see way more variation - not necessarily some intermediate between the two parents.

I wouldn't bother changing your label Dot. The others must have inferior monitors. oke:


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## orchideya (Oct 23, 2013)

Gorgeous. I never saw one before.


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## emydura (Oct 23, 2013)

I think it is a mistake to concentrate on what this hybrid doesn't have when judging its parentage. For secondary or complex hybrids not all traits will be expressed or expressed equally amongst its offspring. I don't think you can say that the petals are much longer than the plants I have seen so it can't be right, especially when one of the parents involved has petals that can be a metre long. Same goes for the dorsal colour. Two of the three species doesn't have a dark dorsal, so there is a chance that some of the seedlings will not have a super dark dorsal like most of the anitum hybrids we see.

When judging the label, the focus needs to be on the traits we can see. Are there any traits expressed that would be impossible given the parents involved. Personally I can't see any. This plant looks perfectly plausible for a MK x anitum. As for a MK x sanderianum - the dark parts of the dorsal says there must be another species involved other than sanderianum and phillipinense.


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## Trithor (Oct 23, 2013)

I am normally the one disputing a label. Looking at the bloom, I would have to say that there is definitely an influence of adductum, even if it is not strong. We all like to see that strong anitum/adductum influence, but sometimes that is just not the case. I have to agree with David on this one.


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## SlipperFan (Oct 23, 2013)

I wrote to Glen Decker this evening, asking him about this. I'll let you know what he says.


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## SlipperKing (Oct 23, 2013)

I'm not sure Glen will be able to shed anymore light on the identity then what you've gotten already. He didn't make the cross, it came out of Taiwan and he probably bought the minim of 6 from Hilo. I got his catalog today and he has a lot of multis listed. Most likely he is trying to turn them over quickly and not blooming many.


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## Cheyenne (Oct 24, 2013)

SlipperKing said:


> I'm not sure Glen will be able to shed anymore light on the identity then what you've gotten already. He didn't make the cross, it came out of Taiwan and he probably bought the minim of 6 from Hilo. I got his catalog today and he has a lot of multis listed. Most likely he is trying to turn them over quickly and not blooming many.



This is correct, Glen will probably not know anything else. It's funny I was talking with someone the other day who has a big nursery and they were telling me how they had one of the tables with a few hundred multis on it tip over. They said there was plants and tags all ovet the ground. But they were able to get the right tags back by the way the different crosses looked(the plants). I don't know about you but with multis that might be hard. 
Accidents happen, and nurseries are just selling them by whats on the tag, as they should. 
By the way, I was never trying to show Dot any disrespect by questioning it. I was just wondering because it didn't seem like most I have seen.


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## emydura (Oct 24, 2013)

Just to demonstrate the sort of variation you can get when you move away from primary hybrids, have a look at this link. Like Dot's plant this is a primary hybrid crossed back to a species. These two plants are not only the same cross, they are from the same flask. 

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13552&highlight=sanderianum


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## SlipperKing (Oct 24, 2013)

I see want you mean David but even Robert admits to the possibilities of label mixing. Two things are for certain Dot, it will look much different on the next blooming and the current dorsal is unusually wide for a double shot of sanderianum. They also look fairly flat, which would go against the idea of MK back-crossed to sanderianum as parents. I don't have Spiderman nor MK X sandie to compare but what I do have is Spiderman X sandie which could be interesting to see if the adductum/anitum comes through.


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## SlipperFan (Oct 24, 2013)

Glen did write back. Basically what he said was that anitum doesn't always "shine through" on all of its hybrids. He observed that my plant has very "clean color" which was intensified by anitum, as well as the darker markings. He said he's seen others from the same source as this plant and thinks the name stands true. 

Then he said that if I didn't want it I could return it and he'd be pleased to take it back. 

That is certainly not my intention -- in fact I am entering into a show this weekend (Michiana).


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## Ozpaph (Oct 24, 2013)

emydura said:


> Just to demonstrate the sort of variation you can get when you move away from primary hybrids, have a look at this link. Like Dot's plant this is a primary hybrid crossed back to a species. These two plants are not only the same cross, they are from the same flask.
> 
> http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13552&highlight=sanderianum



I wouldnt pick them as sibs - sure you didnt mix up the labels????:rollhappy::rollhappy:


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## Trithor (Oct 25, 2013)

SlipperFan said:


> Glen did write back. Basically what he said was that anitum doesn't always "shine through" on all of its hybrids. He observed that my plant has very "clean color" which was intensified by anitum, as well as the darker markings. He said he's seen others from the same source as this plant and thinks the name stands true.
> 
> Then he said that if I didn't want it I could return it and he'd be pleased to take it back.
> 
> That is certainly not my intention -- in fact I am entering into a show this weekend (Michiana).



Way to go Dot! Good luck for the show


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## emydura (Oct 25, 2013)

SlipperKing said:


> I see want you mean David but even Robert admits to the possibilities of label mixing.



Well he didn't say the labels were mixed up, just that there is always a chance that could occur. Heck, I could find a million dollars tomorrow. 

OK, what about these then? These are both Shin-Yi Saint (Sander's Pride x St Swithin). Both plants come from the same grower and were awarded on the same day. So we can pretty safely conclude they came from the same flask. The petals on the first clone are 44cm while they are only 15cm on the 2nd clone. Labels mixed up again? 

Once you start getting into complex hybrids with multiple species, the possible outcomes are almost endless. Given we are now starting to grow more of these complex multi hybrids, if we question every clone that doesn't look like what we would expect or hope or seen before, we are going to have a lot of mislabelled plants.

I have one of these if it ever gets going. Hope it turns out like the first one.


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## Trithor (Oct 25, 2013)

Whew David! Remind me to never question a label ever again! Personally, I think this debate has been cornered by yourself, fortunately I never disputed the tag (for a change), ......wow!


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## emydura (Oct 25, 2013)

Trithor said:


> Whew David! Remind me to never question a label ever again! Personally, I think this debate has been cornered by yourself, fortunately I never disputed the tag (for a change), ......wow!



Well how can we have a vigorous debate if you won't start one? oke:

I get your point. I can tell no one is really interested. My apologies to everyone for my rant, especially to Dot for drawing attention away from her wonderful flower. Personally I'd be pretty happy with that outcome and would welcome it in my collection. I'll drop off now.


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## Trithor (Oct 25, 2013)

Heh heh heh, better than TV!:rollhappy:


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## Cheyenne (Oct 25, 2013)

Yeah, I don't want to say anything again. I am going back to saying oooh and ahhh at the flower pictures.


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## SlipperKing (Oct 25, 2013)

Yes, good luck at the show Dot we're pulling for you and your Paph Spiderman! 

I never said anything about changing labels. I said I don't see any anitum in the cross, I still don't. But the label is what it is and the plant is labeled as such. There is no solid proof saying otherwise so this is Spiderman.


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## SlipperFan (Oct 25, 2013)

I think people are getting too sensitive here. I don't mind people questioning my tags -- I've had my share of erroneous ones. It gives me a chance to do some more research and learn more. In this case, It gave me a reason to chat with Glen and learn a little more from him. 

So, David, I am interested in your observations and opinions, as well as all the counter-info. That's one of the good things about this forum.


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## Ozpaph (Oct 25, 2013)

SlipperFan said:


> I think people are getting too sensitive here. I don't mind people questioning my tags -- I've had my share of erroneous ones. It gives me a chance to do some more research and learn more. In this case, It gave me a reason to chat with Glen and learn a little more from him.
> 
> So, David, I am interested in your observations and opinions, as well as all the counter-info. That's one of the good things about this forum.



Im with you.
Respectful discussion/debate/arguments are how I learn and see others perspective (even if they are always wrong!)


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## emydura (Oct 26, 2013)

Cheyenne said:


> Yeah, I don't want to say anything again. I am going back to saying oooh and ahhh at the flower pictures.



Don't do that. That is why I left the Slipper Orchid forum to come here. There was no discussion over there at all. Just ooh's and ahhh's. I guess when you start a discussion people will have different opinions but there is nothing wrong with that.


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## paphioboy (Oct 26, 2013)

First thing, nice hybrid, Dot... But IMHO, it very closely resembles MK x sanderianum which thelink has posted before... Different clones show variation of course.. 



emydura said:


>



David, IMHO the plant pictured above has a generous shot of lowii inside.. I'm inclined to think a Julius hybrid instead of one of the parents...


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## emydura (Oct 26, 2013)

paphioboy said:


> First thing, nice hybrid, Dot... But IMHO, it very closely resembles MK x sanderianum which thelink has posted before... Different clones show variation of course..
> 
> 
> 
> David, IMHO the plant pictured above has a generous shot of lowii inside.. I'm inclined to think a Julius hybrid instead of one of the parents...



I dunno. Possibly. The red colour could also come from the phillipinense parent. Hell of a lot of stonei came through in that one. Julius hybrids are extremely rare as it is quite infertile. They are out there but there's not a lot of them.


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## SlipperFan (Oct 26, 2013)

Spiderman got a blue ribbon for it's class, and a third in the first bloom seedlings class.

My sanderianum got a blue ribbon *and* a trophy for its class, and a first place for first bloom seedlings.


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## emydura (Oct 26, 2013)

Good for you Dot. Well done.


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## Ozpaph (Oct 27, 2013)

Well done Dot!


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## AdamD (Oct 27, 2013)

:clap::clap::clap: Congrats! I like the color and form, even if only a little anitum shone through. Well grown


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## Trithor (Oct 27, 2013)

Well done Dot! Your awards are richly deserved.


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