# US MAN convicted of Orchid smuggling



## ehanes7612 (Oct 27, 2010)

anyone hear about this?

http://www.economist.com/node/16636027?story_id=16636027


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## ehanes7612 (Oct 27, 2010)

did some more research on this...apparently a Fish and Wildlife bust ...they also conducted a sting (bought plants from him w/out proper documents)..charged him with perjury also.....i wonder what other evidence they had on him...hard to tell what his intentions were from what is on the internet...


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## nikv (Oct 27, 2010)

Mr Norris used to sell a lot of plants on eBay back in the day. I occasionally bought plants from him, but nothing exotic or rare. From what I've read, he's out of prison and living a quiet life now in retirement. He's also not into orchids anymore. The whole ordeal left him a changed man. All of my correspondence with him (emails) were polite and cordial. He seemed like a really nice man.


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## ehanes7612 (Oct 27, 2010)

*found this investigative piece*

http://www.heritage.org/research/re...-smuggler-a-case-study-in-overcriminalization

"Norris was singled out because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. As controversy roared over the kovachii and prosecutors were gunning for a high-profile conviction to tamp down sales in truly rare and endangered plants, Norris bragged that he would soon have the extraordinary flower in stock."


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## Shiva (Oct 27, 2010)

A true horror story!  This is uneducated bureaucracy running wild.


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## Darin (Oct 27, 2010)

George was an incredibly nice man. On the day he was busted, I was supposed to go to his house to pick up a Bulbophyllum gigantea (If I remember correct). When I pulled up there were several pilice cars and unmarked cars out front. A badged individual came to my car window when I pulled into the drive and said "You dont want to be here." Put the car in reverse and left.

Needless to say, it was an absolute shame that the govt would go after those of relative innocence while they let murderers go after a year or two in jail.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Oct 27, 2010)

There are many posts about this story here. I know George. Over 10 years now...while we have never met, I still correspond with him. He had an orchid importing business, mostly stuff from South America. Even though he occasionally carried phrags, he was not into them that much and usually had other species. George is a character...really played up the "Texas redneck" character, and got into lots of online scraps with many people. Like most online blowhards, he was totally harmless (and actually a nice guy, with genuine appreciation for people and character). But when you make online enemies, some may act as real enemies. George, at one point, made a claim that he would be able to probably get kovachii...legally. Of course, this was before it was officially released. He implied that he would be one of, if not the first to carry it. Well, to make a long story short, someone...a prior customer, reported George. The USFW tracked his emails and investigated him. What he was actually nailed for...and he freely admits to this...was telling his supplier to send a shipment to Miami, where he felt customs were more lenient, and to label the phrags in the shipment (mostly pearcei...and all legally propagated) as Maxillarias, to speed them through. The rest is in the story. Basically, they were holding the jail sentence against him so that he would tell the USFW about other, more serious importation offenses. He refused. He went to jail. He is now out, avoiding any connection to orchids.
What George did was wrong. He acknowledges this and accepts all blame. But sending a 65 year old man with no priors and serious health problems to jail for a year?


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## ehanes7612 (Oct 28, 2010)

according to that investigative piece posted a link...the reporter draws a connection to the govt putting pressure on its agencies to show they were living up to their agreements over CITES...and Peru's need to avenge loss of naming a highly valued species...politics as usual ..unfortunate


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## biothanasis (Oct 28, 2010)

I never understood such governmental tactics!!! And although I am young, I am completely bored of this lifestyle!!!

Have we sold all other aspects of life and we are occupied with the enfocement of plants legislation??? There are milions of people living among us that are on the streets and they bearely eat a bite during the day! Millions of people are being brain-washed to overconsume and eat-eat-eat...! People cannot find jobs, ethics are downhill in every human society, humanity bonds are looser than ever before and all we need to do is protect the environment??? 
How?? By trying to put an end to something although forcing everything else in the exact opposite direction?? Isn't this selfcanseling??? I think we need to change the bases of our society modeling and focus on other aspects!! To add values and ethics first, not laws and legislations (alone)! If the former are implemented by all, then the latter might not be necessary...

And to add something more...!! What is legal and what illegal eventually??? Who is the expert to say for sure what can get a documentation and what not??? Biology learns us that only a small fragment of such issues can be 99% sure. Everything else is unknown or undefined. And to put is in other words, why protect a small population of endangered mice species when millions of mice die in laboratories every year? 


What is the purpose of the laws?? Since everything is connected to money-collection nothing is clear! But let's not forget, that we (not only the potical persons) are responsible for the current cituation in every society...! And there is a saying about this: As you have made your bed, so you will lie on it...!


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## Leo Schordje (Oct 28, 2010)

The Economist article is not about orchid smuggling, but rather about the issue of over-criminalization of legal offenses. I am in agreement that this is a serious problem with the US legal system, and this over-criminalization is is used selectively with people to scare others into compliance. 

Eric and Darin are correct about George. Part of Norris' problem was his constant political jabs at US Fish and Wildlife about CITES. He did this in his on line posts and in his printed price lists and newsletters. He was very public about his contempt for USFWS and he put it in print. I suspect he was made a target for this reason. His sentance has been pointed to a number of times as a classic example of over-criminalization and excessive sentancing. I feel for the guy and hope his remaining years are peaceful. There is nothing that can be done to get him the time back. I am disappointed that the current batch of Demeocrats in power now are completely deaf to pleas to address the issue of over criminalization and excessive sentancing in non-violent crimes. 

One on one George Norris is a great guy, but many times he really evoked the ire of quite a number of people, with his on-line neo-con right wing political rants. I wish him well, and hope all of my fellow slipper talkers take to heart that this issue of over-criminalization of non-violent crimes and breaking of legal regulations to be a serious issue worth talking to your friends and neighbors about. We need to get a grass roots buzz going about this issue because it does affect us all, if not directly, it affects friends and family. (be concerned especially if you grow any species orchids). Politicians will only react when they get pressure from multiple sources, and orchid growers alone are not enough of a lobby to pressure political change. Take on the greater issue, as over-criminalization applies to everything from parking tickets to dog walking, business licensing and importing anything. And of course there is the whole "War on Drugs" issue, which is trying to solve a complex social issue with a simple "Lock 'em all up" approach. So give it some thought then write your local and national political representative. In Chicago a simple parking ticket for over staying at a meter starts at $75 and if you don't pay before a hearing, it goes up to $150. This is the type of outrageous excessive fines that are part of the over-criminalization issue. 

Thanks for the initial post and article to bring this issue up.


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## NYEric (Oct 28, 2010)

Leo Schordje said:


> We need to get a grass roots buzz going about this issue because it does affect us all, if not directly, it affects friends and family. .


 Really!? I tend to feel it has affected me directly!!!


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## KyushuCalanthe (Oct 28, 2010)

Leo Schordje said:


> ...the issue of over-criminalization of legal offenses. I am in agreement that this is a serious problem with the US legal system, and this over-criminalization is is used selectively with people to scare others into compliance.



But is it really surprising from a nation that has found it necessary to incarcerate more than 3% of its population? It is hard to believe that Americans are that bad. Funny, Mother Russia is in the #2 slot. Hmm...


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## SlipperFan (Oct 28, 2010)

Leo Schordje said:


> I am disappointed that the current batch of Demeocrats in power now are completely deaf to pleas to address the issue of over criminalization and excessive sentancing in non-violent crimes. ...


This country is so polarized, I doubt we can advance on any social issue anytime soon. 



Leo Schordje said:


> ... Take on the greater issue, as over-criminalization applies to everything from parking tickets to dog walking, business licensing and importing anything. And of course there is the whole "War on Drugs" issue, which is trying to solve a complex social issue with a simple "Lock 'em all up" approach. So give it some thought then write your local and national political representative. In Chicago a simple parking ticket for over staying at a meter starts at $75 and if you don't pay before a hearing, it goes up to $150. This is the type of outrageous excessive fines that are part of the over-criminalization issue. ...


The Republicans have everybody so scared with their "Lock 'em up" solution for every little thing. The Democrats are so afraid to do anything because the electorate have been brain-washed by conservatives on every issue from health-care to money for education vs. incarceration. On the eve of mid-term elections, I don't see a lot of hope for this country to remain the great land of opportunity and innovation it has become known for.



KyushuCalanthe said:


> But is it really surprising from a nation that has found it necessary to incarcerate more than 3% of its population? It is hard to believe that Americans are that bad. Funny, Mother Russia is in the #2 slot. Hmm...


Just try to change people's minds to put money into education instead of incarceration.


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## NYEric (Oct 28, 2010)

SlipperFan said:


> This country is so polarized, I doubt we can advance on any social issue anytime soon. The Republicans have everybody so scared with their "Lock 'em up" solution for every little thing. The Democrats are so afraid to do anything because the electorate have been brain-washed by conservatives on every issue from health-care to money for education vs. incarceration. On the eve of mid-term elections, I don't see a lot of hope for this country to remain the great land of opportunity and innovation it has become known for.



I agree!


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## Leo Schordje (Oct 29, 2010)

We can actually do something, and we can do it next week. No matter how futile it may feel, we need to get out and vote. Most races are won or lost by margins less than 5%. This means your vote may be more important than you might feel. Even more important, try to convince 5 like minded friends to also get out and vote, those who might have stayed away from the poles because "my vote won't matter". And if you get each of them to convince some of their freinds to get out and vote, it can snowball into a high voter turn out race. Staying away from the poles favors the extreemists. 

Actually the races to pay the most attention to are the local races. twice now in the last 10 years, the difference between who became mayor of my town of 12,000 people was less than 10 votes. One year the canditate won by 5 votes. So don't stay home because it won't matter. It will, especially the more local the race is. Try to do your homework this week and then get out and excercise your rights.


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## biothanasis (Oct 29, 2010)

Leo I like the way you put your thought into words...  I agree with your opinion more or less....! The way we act in this matter is very similar with littering (at least here anyway...) When I ask people you drop down the package of their cigaretes or their chewing gum, why don't you put it in the garbage bin??? Theiy answer like there are not to blame like this: Is the planet going to be saved from pollytion from me??? or Am I the only one who does this and I am supposed to do it the "right" way?? 

I think that the way we live our lives is our example to the others and not what we say. So, it might be somehow better to say that we are going to vote, for example, and if we are asked why, we could say the reasons, but if we try to convince somebody, most of the times people react otherwise. People do not want to be pussed, although they always need a "boogie-man" to evolve (in thoughts, actions etc)...!!! But then again if we do not try then we won't know what will happen...


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## emydura (Oct 29, 2010)

Leo Schordje said:


> Staying away from the poles favors the extreemists.



You nailed it there Leo. The voluntary voting system doesn't help the US. It just favours the extreme elements which doesn't really represent middle America. But then if middle America is not going to vote who can blame political parties for pursuing the extreme vote. They are just trying to get elected.

In Australia voting is compulsory, so at least 95% of the eligible population votes. So extreme groups have little influence. The main problem is the two major parties are so desperate to win the middle ground they have become indistinguishable. It is hard to tell them apart.

David


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## NYEric (Oct 29, 2010)

How does Aus. enforce compulsory voting?


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## goldenrose (Oct 29, 2010)

Good question Eric, after the polls close isn't it too late? then what?


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## Candace (Oct 29, 2010)

NYEric said:


> How does Aus. enforce compulsory voting?


We should make it compulsory by making anyone who doesn't vote have to show up for jury duty! ;>


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## Gcroz (Oct 29, 2010)

The ridiculousness of the legal system in the US doesn't stop at the criminal courts!

This is from the NY Times today: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/29/nyregion/29young.html?no_interstitial


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## gonewild (Oct 29, 2010)

goldenrose said:


> Good question Eric, after the polls close isn't it too late? then what?



Peru has a huge fine for anyone that fails to vote. No pay the fine? Go to jail.
When you vote you dip your finger in a dye so the police can easily see who has not voted once the polls close and also then you can only vote once. They also stamp your National ID card when you vote and if at anytime in the future a police looks at your ID and you don't have the stamp...off to jail.


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## gonewild (Oct 29, 2010)

Candace said:


> We should make it compulsory by making anyone who doesn't vote have to show up for jury duty! ;>



Or just have a Supreme Ruler and then we don't have to vote or serve on jury duty.


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## emydura (Oct 29, 2010)

NYEric said:


> How does Aus. enforce compulsory voting?



You are fined. Nothing as severe as Peru though. But effective enough.

David


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## SlipperFan (Oct 29, 2010)

Leo Schordje said:


> We can actually do something, and we can do it next week. No matter how futile it may feel, we need to get out and vote. ...


I voted absentee ballot last week -- I think I've only missed one election in my life. You have a good suggestion about encouraging others to go vote.



emydura said:


> You nailed it there Leo. The voluntary voting system doesn't help the US. It just favours the extreme elements which doesn't really represent middle America. But then if middle America is not going to vote who can blame political parties for pursuing the extreme vote. They are just trying to get elected.
> 
> In Australia voting is compulsory, so at least 95% of the eligible population votes. So extreme groups have little influence. The main problem is the two major parties are so desperate to win the middle ground they have become indistinguishable. It is hard to tell them apart.
> 
> David


Voting in any country assumes an informed electorate. If you've ever watched Jay Leno's "Jay-walking" segments, you'd be very concerned about "middle America."

Do the voters in Australia tend to be informed better because they must vote? That would certainly be interesting to know.



Gcroz said:


> This is from the NY Times today: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/29/nyregion/29young.html?no_interstitial


!!! When you were nearly five, were you aware of what was going on around you? I doubt if I was -- I barely have memory of when I was 5.


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## nikv (Oct 29, 2010)

So is this five-year-old girl now faced with hiring her own attorney to represent her independent of her parents? And did some process server hang around outside her kindergarten waiting to approach her and serve her (and not get arrested for being a pedophile/stalker, I might add)? And could a five-year-old girl even understand the complexities of the case? I think not. While I feel bad for the family of the elderly woman, I don't see why the little girl was named as a party to the case. It boggles my mind. Her parents, sure. No problem there. But not her.


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## Bolero (Oct 29, 2010)

There isn't enough in that story to either say he's guilty or not guilty so I can't see how anyone can rush to judgement. For all we know he might have done the wrong thing (or the right thing).


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Oct 29, 2010)

Its funny......when I first got to know George, I made it clear to him that politics was off-limits in our discussions, since we would never agree with each other anyway. When his legal troubles began we actually found ourselves agreeing on some things. I even suggested that he contact the ACLU. Ultimately, the ACLU did get involved, but to no avail. However, years later, George is still the same politically.


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## emydura (Oct 30, 2010)

SlipperFan said:


> Voting in any country assumes an informed electorate. If you've ever watched Jay Leno's "Jay-walking" segments, you'd be very concerned about "middle America."
> 
> Do the voters in Australia tend to be informed better because they must vote? That would certainly be interesting to know.



Definately not. Mosy Australians have no interest at all in politics and only vote because they have too. They certainly don't make an informed vote. It is one of the arguments used to suggest voting should be voluntary. It is a fair argument but the flipside is that our parliament is not controlled by conservative religous fundamentalists or national rifle associations. 

The problem we have is that in order to appeal to this large disinterested group, the elction campaigns of the two major parties are so dumbed down. There is never any intelligent discussion or detailed policy debate. There campaigns are nothing but simplistic, meaningless slogans that get repeated ad nauseum. They are also incredibly negative. The recent federal election was the worst I have ever seen. The end result was we now have a hung parliament (the first in my lifetime) with power determined by a whole bunch of independents. A fantastic result for the country and one leading to badly needed parliamentary reform.

David


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## NYEric (Oct 30, 2010)

I don't want to get into US politics here. I don't know about other countries but US politics have repeatedly shown that people are really sheep!


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## ehanes7612 (Oct 30, 2010)

and here i thought growing orchids made people immune to politics...silly me


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## SlipperFan (Oct 30, 2010)

emydura said:


> ...The problem we have is that in order to appeal to this large disinterested group, the elction campaigns of the two major parties are so dumbed down. There is never any intelligent discussion or detailed policy debate. There campaigns are nothing but simplistic, meaningless slogans that get repeated ad nauseum. They are also incredibly negative. The recent federal election was the worst I have ever seen. The end result was we now have a hung parliament (the first in my lifetime) with power determined by a whole bunch of independents. A fantastic result for the country and one leading to badly needed parliamentary reform.
> 
> David


Oh. For a minute there, I thought you were talking about the US. It's the same here, with voluntary voting.



ehanes7612 said:


> and here i thought growing orchids made people immune to politics...silly me


It's a human thing -- do you know of any orchid societies that don't have a lot of politics at their core???


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## Shiva (Oct 30, 2010)

Our political system, and I include that of Canada, is beyond redemption. Political parties should be abolished and people should vote for any local representative of their choice no matter what his or her views on politics are. Once the election is over, the president elect would chose his cabinet among the best people elected with an obligation to represent all political tendancies reasonnably equally. There would be no opposition as such but every elected member would be free to vote for or against any policy proposed by any elected representative. That would be totally democratic and it would end the endless posturing for power. Of course, I'm dreaming big time but to me, that's better than the nightmare scenario we have now. It's worst in the US because there's far more money flowing and politicians are more interested in holding power than doing good for the people.The political machine has gone rogue. Billions of dollars are spent on election and the US has the gall to criticize the corruption in Afghanistan. For the time being, I hope the voters come to their senses quickly. :sob:


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## ehanes7612 (Oct 30, 2010)

SlipperFan said:


> Oh. For a minute there, I thought you were talking about the US. It's the same here, with voluntary voting.
> 
> 
> It's a human thing -- do you know of any orchid societies that don't have a lot of politics at their core???




apparently sarcasm isnt


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## SlipperFan (Oct 31, 2010)

ehanes7612 said:


> apparently sarcasm isnt



Oh, I got the sarcasm. But you know, I have actually met people who were surprised to find politics in orchid societies. I wanted to make that point, in case others didn't get it.


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## ehanes7612 (Oct 31, 2010)

SlipperFan said:


> Oh, I got the sarcasm. But you know, I have actually met people who were surprised to find politics in orchid societies. I wanted to make that point, in case others didn't get it.



true...mostly around judging and awards i have found


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