# fish fert dilution



## orchideya (Mar 25, 2015)

I bought fish emulsion fertilizer 5-1-1 and want to alternate it with my all purpose 20-20-20.
I usually dilute all purpose 20-20-20 in the water at quarter of recommended amount. 
What should I do with this fish 5-1-1?
Label says 1 teaspoon for 1L of water, would that be too much?

Thanks


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## Stone (Mar 25, 2015)

orchideya said:


> I bought fish emulsion fertilizer 5-1-1 and want to alternate it with my all purpose 20-20-20.
> I usually dilute all purpose 20-20-20 in the water at quarter of recommended amount.
> What should I do with this fish 5-1-1?
> Label says 1 teaspoon for 1L of water, would that be too much?
> ...



Unless you can measure the EC I would start with half or even less than recommended. Fertilizer people always want you to use as much as possible and they don't test their product on sensitive species generally


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## ALToronto (Mar 25, 2015)

5-1-1 concentration means 50,000 ppm N in the bottle. To dilute it to 25 ppm N, use the fertilizer at 1:2000, or 0.5 ml/L. 1 ml = 1/4 tsp, so you would need to use 1/4 tsp per 2 L of water. It's much, much less than the recommended dosage. This is why I cringe when I read that someone is using fertilizer at "1/4 strength" and thinks they're dosing lightly. Label strength is usually 20-50 times more than is healthy for orchids.


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## Stone (Mar 26, 2015)

ALToronto said:


> > 5-1-1 concentration means 50,000 ppm N in the bottle. To dilute it to 25 ppm N, use the fertilizer at 1:2000, or 0.5 ml/L. 1 ml = 1/4 tsp, so you would need to use 1/4 tsp per 2 L of water. It's much, much less than the recommended dosage. This is why I cringe when I read that someone is using fertilizer at "1/4 strength" and thinks they're dosing lightly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ALToronto (Mar 26, 2015)

I will keep updating how my gecko vivarium is doing. The plants in it are getting very little fertilizer, maybe 5 ppm N once a week (same fish fert as orchideya has). The rest of the time they get a mixture of RO and tap water (about 50 ppm TDS, none of it Nitrogen), plus whatever nutrients they get from the wall itself and the tree limbs they grow on. They also get Inocucor and seaweed extract, each at 30 day intervals. And whatever the gecko deposits, although I suspect most of it ends up in the bottom basin.

Plants take what they need from the fertilizer solutions we give them. The excess just causes problems with the medium.


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## Stone (Mar 26, 2015)

ALToronto said:


> Plants take what they need from the fertilizer solutions we give them. The excess just causes problems with the medium.



As long as what they need is there. Of course most of it ends up on the floor. That is not the point. 
Why is it so hard for folks like you and Rick to understand that all plants have an optimum range of nutrient levels to grow to their full potential and that this level has in many cases already been determined by others.

What do we grow orchids for? To enjoy them or just keep them ticking over?
If you read the the first paragraph under Nitrogen in the discussion in this paper perhaps you will see what I mean.

Feeding 5ppm N in this case is depriving the plant of what it can achieve.
Less than about 100ppm for this plant results in less growth. Plain and simple, no ifs or butts. Why do it?
I just don't uderstand the thought process. Is it because you don't like repotting or you don't like good quality plants or?.......
http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/43/2/328.full


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## naoki (Mar 26, 2015)

From my reading, there are several processes of getting Fish Emulsion (which influence the nutrients in there). But with "Alaska" Fish Fertilizer, you get TDS of 50ppm with 1/2 tsp per gallon (33ppm N). With organic ones, TDS/EC may not be a good measure, though. I've been using it occasionally. Recently, I'm using it more frequently since I've been using EM-1. Inocucor brewing process seems to add a bit of Fish emulsion according to their patent. You should be able to brew Inocucor easily with Molasses (it becomes much cheaper in this way) similar to EM-1.


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## orchideya (Mar 26, 2015)

Ouch! I watered my seedlings yesterday with 1/2 teaspoon on 1 L (half dosage) before I got replies.
Hope they survive. I have Muskie 5-1-1, not Alaska. But called fish emulsion fertilizer too.


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## ALToronto (Mar 26, 2015)

You won't hurt the plants with the excess, but I couldn't imagine the smell if I mixed it up like that! 

Mike, I've killed plenty of orchids with high dosage fertilizer. If 100 ppm N works for you, that's great. But this talk actually reminds me of Nestle's claims that their baby formula was better than breastfeeding because babies on it grew faster. Yep, they sure did - and turned into fat kids.


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## orchideya (Mar 26, 2015)

Not that much smell.
It has something added to it that smells more like safer's endall miticide, I guess they used the same fragrance. Of course here it has some dead fish undertones :rollhappy:
Would this stuff burn the leaves?


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## gonewild (Mar 26, 2015)

ALToronto said:


> You won't hurt the plants with the excess, but I couldn't imagine the smell if I mixed it up like that!
> 
> Mike, I've killed plenty of orchids with high dosage fertilizer. If 100 ppm N works for you, that's great. But this talk actually reminds me of Nestle's claims that their baby formula was better than breastfeeding because babies on it grew faster. Yep, they sure did - and turned into fat kids.



:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


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## Stone (Mar 26, 2015)

ALToronto said:


> You won't hurt the plants with the excess, but I couldn't imagine the smell if I mixed it up like that!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Stone (Mar 26, 2015)

naoki said:


> QUOTE] With organic ones, TDS/EC may not be a good measure, though.



Naoki, I have 2 different fish ferts here at the moment. Both certified organic. One has N at 2.25 the other has it at 1.47. (not a huge difference)

The first one recommends 5ml per Lt every 4 weeks for orchids. (it's lowest recommended rate) The EC of that dilution is almost 1.0 dS/m

The second one recommends 3.3 Lt (30ml /9Lt) . At 5ml/Lt as above, the EC is 0.2.

Therefore, given that the NPK of each is not wildly different. My conclusion is that the first has a much higher concentration of Na and Cl. (or less likely a very high concentration of other trace elements) It is made from ocean fish, the other from fresh water carp.

Obviously you are going to get very different results from them. The first should be diluted much more than the second. ( or the second much less than the first depending on your view point) And you will end up with similar EC but lower N. Using the instructions alone can cause you troubles.
This especially important with any organic fertilizer.

It is very important to know both the NPK content of your feed and the EC of the final dilution. The final salinity of what you put on your orchids (regardless of the salt type) is critical!


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## naoki (Mar 26, 2015)

Thanks, Mike. That's a big difference in EC. I did a bit of conversion to make the comparison easier. I converted my and your measurement so that EC values are corresponding to 100ppmN

Mike ocean: 1.361 dS/m (=mS/cm) = 1361 microS/cm about 680.5ppm (with Hanna, US type TDS-EC conversion).
Mike carp: 0.176 dS/m
My "Alaska": 0.303 dS/m

Alaska doesn't say the source, but it is probably ocean fish. I think Orchidea's Muskie has a picture of Northern Pike, so it may be from the freshwater.

I agree with you that root zone EC is critical for water uptake (and nutrient uptake). Well, I said that EC may be less useful with organic fert because larger organic molecules (e.g. proteins) don't contribute much to EC, but once they get broken down, roots will experience higher solute concentration. Am I correct about this? 

With open media, I'm not sure how much break down of organic materials occur. I think Mike and others mentioned that orchids can absorb relatively large molecules like amino acids. But proteins are unlikely to be absorbed directly. I'm not sure how much break down of organic matters are done by EM (Lactobacillus and yeast appear to be dominant players of EM), but I thought combining them might have a good effect.

As a side note, I noticed a couple papers talking about the benefit of fish emulsion against pathogens. I didn't read them, but it's kind of interesting aspect:
http://apsjournals.apsnet.org/doi/abs/10.1094/PHYTO-99-3-0274
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07060660309507048#.VRShKELuVDc


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## Justin (Mar 26, 2015)

i can't believe there is a fertilizer debate on slippertalk!


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## gonewild (Mar 26, 2015)

I can't believe the revived interest in fish fertilizer. Back in time when it was one of the only packaged fertilizer choices available to orchid hobbyists Paphs were called Cyps and most of them died quickly. That all changed when stable chemical fertilizers were packaged and sold.

Does anyone know what contaminants are in fish fertilizer? Neither do I.
There is a lot of % in each bottle that is unknown.


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## Stone (Mar 26, 2015)

Justin said:


> i can't believe there is a fertilizer debate on slippertalk!



I can't believe you can't believe there is a fertilizer debate on slippertalk. :rollhappy::rollhappy:


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## Ozpaph (Mar 26, 2015)

Guess and go low - try 1-2tsp per 10l, or calculate around 100ppm nitrogen. IMHO


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## Stone (Mar 26, 2015)

gonewild said:


> > I can't believe the revived interest in fish fertilizer. Back in time when it was one of the only packaged fertilizer choices available to orchid hobbyists Paphs were called Cyps and most of them died quickly. That all changed when stable chemical fertilizers were packaged and sold.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Stone (Mar 26, 2015)

Ozpaph said:


> Guess and go low - try 1-2tsp per 10l, or calculate around 100ppm nitrogen. IMHO



100ppm???? Them's fight'n words round these parts.


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## consettbay2003 (Mar 28, 2015)

Mercury ???



gonewild said:


> I can't believe the revived interest in fish fertilizer. Back in time when it was one of the only packaged fertilizer choices available to orchid hobbyists Paphs were called Cyps and most of them died quickly. That all changed when stable chemical fertilizers were packaged and sold.
> 
> Does anyone know what contaminants are in fish fertilizer? Neither do I.
> There is a lot of % in each bottle that is unknown.


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## gonewild (Mar 28, 2015)

consettbay2003 said:


> Mercury ???



I doubt the fish fertilizer industry is required to monitor for Mercury.


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## limuhead (Mar 29, 2015)

Fertilizer conversations(arguments) will always be on slippertalk. I have tried everything, and surprining, just about everything works, for me. Why? Could be that I am blessed with ideal conditions. I have been using fish emulsion exclusively lately because I feel that it is better for me and my dog, and my chickens. My orchids look better, have been blooming good too. I use the Alaska 5-1-1 at 1/2 teaspoon per gallon once a week for 3 weeks and then I use the 0-10-10 at the same strength, then repeat. I mix it with EM-1 every time. I grow under shade cloth, not plastic and I water at least once between fert unless it rains. I would think that salt build up would be a problem, but I doubt it due to the fact that moss, the same kind that grows on my trees and in the forest around my house establishes itself really quickly in the pots. I think that maybe if you are growing under lights, have to heat in the winter, cool in the summer, use a humidifier, grow indoors and many of the other things I see people posting about you need to measure tds, ec and all that other stuff. Never have, but like I said my conditions are ideal. This summer when there is more light, heat, and air movement I am going to bump it up to a teaspoon per gallon, maybe more. The best Vandas I have ever seen are grown by a friend of mine in empty pots using 1/2 TABLESPOON per gallon. He fertilizes 2 or 3 times a week, and his plants are grown in full sun. I think it is all relative; give your plants as much fert as they can utilize. I would imagine with inadequate light they can't utilize much, there is build up and that's where the problems start. Media, I think makes a huge difference as well. Switching everything over to straight Orchiata and net pots or baskets.


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## limuhead (Mar 29, 2015)

Also, obviously what works for me might kill plants grown in a basement, and what allows plants in a basement to grow well might make my plants sluggish. I see people using totally different concentrations with varying degrees of success. Everyone has growing conditions that are different, shouldn't their culture be different as well? I think we are all right, wouldn't you agree?oke:


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## gonewild (Mar 29, 2015)

limuhead said:


> Also, obviously what works for me might kill plants grown in a basement, and what allows plants in a basement to grow well might make my plants sluggish. I see people using totally different concentrations with varying degrees of success. Everyone has growing conditions that are different, shouldn't their culture be different as well? I think we are all right, wouldn't you agree?oke:



What's your annual rainfall? Your plants probably get 1000 times more water through their pots than indoor growers. You are right you have ideal conditions and in reality probability don't need to add fertilizer because you have all the natural organisms living that provide enough nutrients for the plants. 

Do you grow Phalaenopsis under open shade cloth year round?


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## limuhead (Mar 29, 2015)

Actually only grow a few Phals, they are the ones that grow in my Lychee tree. They get rain, an occasional blast from the hose in the summer when it doesn't rain for a while. They also grow in the moss on the tree. I actually just picked 4 flasks of Phals a few days ago, which will be grown mounted on Ironwood shingles with a bit of sphagnum moss wrapped around them. The only plants I have under plastic cover are Paphs. According to the Hawaii almanac average rainfall here is 69.63 inches a year, but I know that the rain gauge they use is at Wheeler Army airfield, which is about 200 feet lower elevation. My guess is that we get substantially more here because I am pretty much surrounded by the forest where I am, maybe 100+inches a year.


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## gonewild (Mar 29, 2015)

limuhead said:


> Actually only grow a few Phals, they are the ones that grow in my Lychee tree. They get rain, an occasional blast from the hose in the summer when it doesn't rain for a while. They also grow in the moss on the tree. I actually just picked 4 flasks of Phals a few days ago, which will be grown mounted on Ironwood shingles with a bit of sphagnum moss wrapped around them. The only plants I have under plastic cover are Paphs. According to the Hawaii almanac average rainfall here is 69.63 inches a year, but I know that the rain gauge they use is at Wheeler Army airfield, which is about 200 feet lower elevation. My guess is that we get substantially more here because I am pretty much surrounded by the forest where I am, maybe 100+inches a year.



So your Phals have no problem with being wet at night. Are they hybrids or species? 

Under your conditions I agree with you it makes no difference what fertilizer you apply as long as it's not a ridiculous high amount. Your natural living organisms keep a balance. Natural rainfall has many benefits to plants that we don't understand.


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## limuhead (Mar 29, 2015)

Couldn't agree with you more Lance, and the Phals get wet almost every night, every night for sure in the winter. I am pretty sure they are stuartiana.


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## gonewild (Mar 29, 2015)

limuhead said:


> Couldn't agree with you more Lance, and the Phals get wet almost every night, every night for sure in the winter. I am pretty sure they are stuartiana.



Beautiful flower! Can you show a photo of the plant in it's environment?

What are your night temperatures like? min/max?

Interesting observations when you say all fertilizers seem to give equal results (Basically I think that is what you have said). That really supports the idea of how much the living organisms do effect the nutrient supply much more than the content of the fertilizer.


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## limuhead (Mar 29, 2015)

gonewild said:


> Beautiful flower! Can you show a photo of the plant in it's environment?
> 
> What are your night temperatures like? min/max?
> 
> Interesting observations when you say all fertilizers seem to give equal results (Basically I think that is what you have said). That really supports the idea of how much the living organisms do effect the nutrient supply much more than the content of the fertilizer.



I have recently started using EM-1 with every fertilizing, mixed in. If anything I feel this is what is making a difference, things seem to have started growing faster, but it might just be the longer days now.
My night min/max are from the low 50's in winter to mid/low 70's in summer. Maybe gets into the high 40's once or twice a year but only for short periods. I'll post a pic later, plant is blooming now, like clockwork this one, every year for the show down the street from my house, going to sib it today too...


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## limuhead (Mar 29, 2015)

Roots all over, going through the moss. There are 5 or 6 on the tree, but I think it is all from one original plant. Roots travel for 3 or 4 feet, pinch, and where they pinch a new plant emerges...


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## SlipperFan (Mar 29, 2015)

I am so jealous...


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## limuhead (Mar 30, 2015)

SlipperFan said:


> I am so jealous...


I will sell you the plant for $5.00 if you are interested. Unfortunately shipping will be about $80,000 for the tree that it is attached to. I take PayPal or major credit cards...


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## gonewild (Mar 30, 2015)

limuhead said:


> I will sell you the plant for $5.00 if you are interested. Unfortunately shipping will be about $80,000 for the tree that it is attached to. I take PayPal or major credit cards...



If the tree is curly Koa box it up. :drool:


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## Ozpaph (Mar 30, 2015)

great picture.
What is EM-1?


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## gonewild (Mar 30, 2015)

Ozpaph said:


> What is EM-1?



Pretty sure it is Em-1=EMC2


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## SlipperFan (Mar 30, 2015)

limuhead said:


> I will sell you the plant for $5.00 if you are interested. Unfortunately shipping will be about $80,000 for the tree that it is attached to. I take PayPal or major credit cards...



I'm afraid it would take more than that, as I'd need to build a large greenhouse to house the tree. oke:


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## Cat (Mar 30, 2015)

limuhead said:


> I will sell you the plant for $5.00 if you are interested. Unfortunately shipping will be about $80,000 for the tree that it is attached to. I take PayPal or major credit cards...



If you can get some besseae and kovachii attached to the tree, Eric may come and dig it up well your gone at work


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## limuhead (Mar 31, 2015)

Ozpaph said:


> great picture.
> What is EM-1?



EM-1 or Effective Microorganisms is a mix of beneficial bacteria and whatnot that supposedly eats or competes with harmful fungi and bacteria. It has been around for a while, similar to the Innocular that Ray sells at First Rays. I switched because it is made here in Hawaii, I can buy it direct from the people who make it, and no shipping costs. Personally I think it works great. I have no proof other than what the maker says, but it's supposed to make nitrogen more available to the plant. I guess the microorganisms break it down and make it more readily available to the plants...


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## naoki (Mar 31, 2015)

Here is the link to EM-1
http://www.teraganix.com/default.asp

It is a bit expensive, but if you brew them with Molasses, it is pretty cheap. They recommend only 1 round of brewing, but I've been brewing a couple rounds.

The EM concept is originally developed in Japan, and some of the marketing hype is a bit too hyped up. There are quite a few scientific literature about this. Some people even tried against bush snail (no effect detected). But using it to make compost seems to have some support like what limuhead said. I'm doing a small scale controlled trial, and we'll see how it influences the orchids.

Very nice P. stuartiana var. punctatissima! The leaf shape is interesting. Even though it is grown in more natural setting, the leaves are still round.


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## limuhead (Mar 31, 2015)

naoki said:


> Here is the link to EM-1
> http://www.teraganix.com/default.asp
> 
> It is a bit expensive, but if you brew them with Molasses, it is pretty cheap. They recommend only 1 round of brewing, but I've been brewing a couple rounds.
> ...



I spray the extra fert/EM mixture on my trees, compost pile, in the ginger patch, pretty much everywhere. Seems to make the chicken poop in the yard break down faster as well...


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## limuhead (Mar 31, 2015)

I think it's about 78 bucks a gallon. I have a recipe to make more. You mix 1 cup of EM-1 with 1 cup of organic black strap molasses. Put it in a 2liter soda bottle and fill the rest of the bottle with water. After that put it in an area that doesn't get any bright light for a few weeks, checking after 3 or 4 days and releasing any air pressure that may have(and in my experience always does). It starts out really dark and ends up lighter in color, maybe after the microorganisms consume the molasses. Any way it is advised that the solution that is made should be used within 30 days. I haven't used any fungicide since I have been using this stuff, just Trilogy, which is clarified neem oil, I am now 100% organic, with the exception of Nutricote on my Cymbidiums, but I am going to eliminate that in 6 months when I repot...


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## Ray (Mar 31, 2015)

That's right - carbon is the fuel for the micro bugs, and sugars are a really simple to digest source.


Ray Barkalow
firstrays.com


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## naoki (Mar 31, 2015)

You start with lots of microbes and molasses. I use slightly less than what the official site recommends (about 2/3 of the recommended initial concentration for both EM-1 and molasses).
http://www.teraganix.com/Activated-EM-1-s/261.htm
It may take a bit longer, but it does reach the target pH in 1 week.

I started to add a little bit of Fish emulsion for the brewing after studying the patent of Inocucor:
https://www.google.com/patents/US20140120601

I'm not sure if it is good to brew it in the dark. It includes some of photosynthetic bacteria. But with lots of available sugar, photosynthesis is probably irrelevant.

I have been wondering why they use anaerobic culture. Any microbiologists here?


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## gonewild (Mar 31, 2015)

naoki said:


> I have been wondering why they use anaerobic culture. Any microbiologists here?



The lactic acid bacteria they use grows in an anaerobic environment.
What you are doing is a lactic fermentation basically the same as is done for for preserving. The Lactobacyllus bacteria is the same genera as what makes acidophilus in Yogurt.

We ferment bananas here using the anaerobic Lactic fermentation process to make vinegar and the bacteria are already present in the fruit. If you expose the process to oxygen then mold and harmful bacteria may grow. The fermentation process also produces CO2 which keeps the atmosphere in the container anaerobic.


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## limuhead (Mar 31, 2015)

Interesting note about the fish emulsion in the Inoculor, I wasn't aware of it until now. As far as fermentation in the dark, well there is a window in the laundry room where I brew it, but very dim light at best even when it is sunny. I am going to keep at it to see the long term implications. I would appreciate some input/feedback though. In the winter here it is pretty cloudy most of the time. In the summer there is abundant sunshine, higher temperatures, but the trade winds kick up a bit, so summer has much better air movement. I was told by a friend that has been raising orchids for 25+ years that he increases the rate of fertilizer in the summer because with added heat, light, and watering frequency the plants can utilize more NPK so there is less of a tendency for salt build up. I know the theory behind the Klite, have used it, and with my conditions I did see an improvement but I feel that with the fish emulsion (5-1-1 and occasionally the 0-10-10 at a dilute rate) used with the EM I am seeing good growth, less fungal/bacterial problems, and more resistance to pests. I am pretty sure my pots are getting completely or almost flushed between feeding by rain. That and I water thoroughly before applying fertilizer. I am speculating that I can up my dosage of fert because of the fact my media is pretty well flushed in between feeding, what do you think?


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## gonewild (Apr 1, 2015)

limuhead said:


> I am speculating that I can up my dosage of fert because of the fact my media is pretty well flushed in between feeding, what do you think?



You can up your dosage a lot. Under your environmental conditions your plants can handle much higher nutrient levels.

As you increase dosage growth will increase in speed and volume. 
The increase will be obvious and continue and then it will stop increasing.
At that point is where you have created a problem by killing off the natural organisms. It's at that point where you will start to see plants rot and have other problems. Push to the limit and stop in time and all is well, but human nature basically says keep going.


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## limuhead (Apr 2, 2015)

Interesting theory Lance, but I think you are missing the point. I feel if my conditions in the summer allow me to increase nutrients when the plant can utilize them it may help the plant grow and flower to its potential. On the other end of the spectrum this past winter when there was little or no sun for 6 weeks I didn't water or fertilize at all, just organic fungicides and insecticides. My theory is based on conditions that allow the plants to uptake nutrients, or when the conditions are not optimal, reduce those nutrients. I was thinking that some plants in nature go through a dormant stage when conditions are not so great, and subsequently go through a growth stage when they are ideal. Species make these adaptations over thousands of years. I have species and hybrids from all over the world and was thinking I might be able to increase and decrease nutrient levels to improve overall performance.


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## limuhead (Apr 2, 2015)

Also was wondering how I would be killing off natural organisms with the EM-1. According to research and information that I have seen it is a combination of useful regenerated micro-organisms that exist in nature that increase the natural resistance of soil, plants, water, humans, and animals. With this being added to the fertilizer at the recommended intervals how would this be possible? Hey, you can even add it to your laundry to kill odor causing microbes!!!:drool:


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## Stone (Apr 2, 2015)

limuhead said:


> > Hey, you can even add it to your laundry to kill odor causing microbes!!!:drool
> 
> 
> 
> Do you add it along with the fish emulsion? mmmmm....fish pants :evil:


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## gonewild (Apr 2, 2015)

limuhead said:


> Interesting theory Lance, but I think you are missing the point.



I didn't miss your point but maybe you misunderstood my comment.
Your question was "... 
I am speculating that I can up my dosage of fert because of the fact my media is pretty well flushed in between feeding, what do you think?"...

My answer is ...Yes you can.



> I feel if my conditions in the summer allow me to increase nutrients when the plant can utilize them it may help the plant grow and flower to its potential.



That is why I say yes you can increase your dose to achieve maximum growth. you can increase your nutrient application a lot, all the way up to 100ppm N at every watering and that includes in the rain water. Your conditions being near perfect for maximum growth at this time are similiar to artificial conditions commercial producers try to maintain in greenhouses. So it stands to reason you can mimic their proven nutrient dosages to achieve maximum growth during those conditions.



> On the other end of the spectrum this past winter when there was little or no sun for 6 weeks I didn't water or fertilize at all, just organic fungicides and insecticides.



Just because you perceive (as a human) there is little or no sun does not mean that the plants stop growing and needing nutrients. Growth slows but it does not stop unless there is a lack of needed nutrients. Photosynthesis occurs even at very low light levels and the plant needs nutrients at that time.



> My theory is based on conditions that allow the plants to uptake nutrients, or when the conditions are not optimal, reduce those nutrients.



Reduce yes but don't eliminate nutrients. Keep nutrients in the root zone so the moment the plant thinks it has enough light to grow it has food. Don't make the plant wait if you you want to achieve maximum potential.



> I was thinking that some plants in nature go through a dormant stage when conditions are not so great,E]


 and subsequently go through a growth stage when they are ideal.[/QUOTE] 

Some plants go dormant and those plants may benefit from a decrease in nutrient supply. I think nutrient availability affects dormant D.nobile and helps determine flower size/count and whether new buds will be vegetative or reproductive. Catasetums go dormant and don't need nutrients during that time. But those are plants thaat go "dormant". Other types likes Paphs, Phrags, Phals are evergreen and can be growing year round even in dark periods.



> Species make these adaptations over thousands of years. I have species and hybrids from all over the world and was thinking I might be able to increase and decrease nutrient levels to improve overall performance.



That's my point. Make sure that the plants that can use nutrients have nutrients when they have a need for them.


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## gonewild (Apr 2, 2015)

limuhead said:


> Also was wondering how I would be killing off natural organisms with the EM-1. According to research and information that I have seen it is a combination of useful regenerated micro-organisms that exist in nature that increase the natural resistance of soil, plants, water, humans, and animals. With this being added to the fertilizer at the recommended intervals how would this be possible? Hey, you can even add it to your laundry to kill odor causing microbes!!!:drool:



When I mentioned killing the natural organisms I meant by increasing fertilizer salts to a point that it kills the microbes on the roots. You can increase your fertilizer dose and growth will increase but if you keep increasing the dose at some point growth will begin to have problems. Maybe the leaves will continue to grow fast but the roots will suffer and then suddenly the plant will fail. That's where overall plant health enters in and the arguments begin.... what is the best growth, live fast die young or live slow die old?

I was not referring to the EM-1 killing the benificials. However now that you mention it you can probably kill the organisms in EM-1 with higher doses of fertilizer. 
Basically all EM-1 is is lactose fermented molasses. The lactose bacteria are present naturally on plants and fruit. So the use of EM-1 is actually just boosting the natural microrobes. I'm not sure how those bacteria benefit the plants since they eat sugar.
:wink:


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## Stone (Apr 2, 2015)

gonewild said:


> > When I mentioned killing the natural organisms I meant by increasing fertilizer salts to a point that it kills the microbes on the roots.
> 
> 
> 
> That is highly unlikely


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## Ray (Apr 3, 2015)

gonewild said:


> Basically all EM-1 is is lactose fermented molasses. The lactose bacteria are present naturally on plants and fruit. So the use of EM-1 is actually just boosting the natural microrobes. I'm not sure how those bacteria benefit the plants since they eat sugar.
> :wink:


The interaction between the various bacilli, lactobacilli, and even some yeasts and other molds (Inocucor Garden Solution has all of the above) and plants is primarily via their metabolites, both directly and indirectly. 

For example, metabolites of _Trichoderma harzianum_ kills damaging fungi by decomposing the chitin in their cell walls, but can also decompose cellulose, thereby releasing otherwise insoluble nutrients.


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## gonewild (Apr 3, 2015)

Ray said:


> The interaction between the various bacilli, lactobacilli, and even some yeasts and other molds (Inocucor Garden Solution has all of the above) and plants is primarily via their metabolites, both directly and indirectly.
> 
> For example, metabolites of _Trichoderma harzianum_ kills damaging fungi by decomposing the chitin in their cell walls, but can also decompose cellulose, thereby releasing otherwise insoluble nutrients.



Interesting, thanks for the info. 
Couple questions that probably no one knows the answer for..
How are damaging fungi targeted by the Trichoderma harzianum and beneficial fungi not?
Is there a known salt (fertilizer) level that is inhibitive to the beneficial organisms in Inocucor? 

I know there are species of Lactobacilli that thrive in salt and others that salt kills. But no idea what salt level that is. And it is in relation to sodium chloride brine. How does the fertilizer salt effect the microbes? Knowing that level would help to understand fertilizer dosages better.


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