# Phrag. Sedenii 'Hildegarde'



## AquaGem (Nov 27, 2011)




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## Shiva (Nov 27, 2011)

I'm not sure about the dorsal but the rest of the flower is very nice.


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## Lycaste53 (Nov 27, 2011)

AquaGem, 
that´s a very nice and well grown plant.
Shiva, 
is the dorsal too much twisted?


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## Shiva (Nov 27, 2011)

Lycaste53 said:


> AquaGem,
> that´s a very nice and well grown plant.
> Shiva,
> is the dorsal too much twisted?



It's a little too much to my taste in the first picture. But the other flowers seem fine to me. This being said, there's a great deal of confusion between Sedenii and Cardinale and this one may have a dose of both.


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## Orchidzrule (Nov 27, 2011)

Shiva said:


> This being said, there's a great deal of confusion between Sedenii and Cardinale and this one may have a dose of both.



Is it possible that some of the plants we see called Sedenii are really perhaps Sedenii selfed or sib-crossed? If so, they would be second generation, and such F2 plants would not necessarily be exactly half schlimii and half longifolium. 

At any rate, I really find this flower attractive and would love to have one like it in my collection of Phrags! Great growing & blooming. :clap:


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## Shiva (Nov 27, 2011)

Sedenii and Calurum were both made in the 1870s and registered a few years later. Along the way, they have been made and remade many times over and sometimes, they were mixed by mistake or by nature. in the early days, they would be raised from seeds in the mother pot and who knows what happened. Today's breeders are much more careful but there are the odd old Sedenii and Calurum out there that can still serve as parents. And if you add Cardinale to the mix..., not to forget what variety of longifolium parent!!! But I do agree with you, I would very happily like to own this plant.


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## Kevin (Nov 27, 2011)

I agree there is confusion between Sedenii and Calurum, but this looks like neither. Are you sure it's not Schroederae?


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## Shiva (Nov 27, 2011)

My thought exactly!


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## Orchidzrule (Nov 27, 2011)

I had to look that one up (caudatum X schlimii), but after doing so, I agree this does look very similar. OK, then I guess I have to put that one on my wish list!


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## W. Beetus (Nov 27, 2011)

Wonderful blooms!


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## phrag guy (Nov 27, 2011)

nice flower and does look like Schroederae to me also


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## AquaGem (Nov 27, 2011)

This plant/division came from Glen Decker. If you google this plant and clone you will get to see that it has been pretty much the same as the other Sedenii. Schroederae has much longer petals.


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## SlipperFan (Nov 27, 2011)

Actually, it looks like a cross between Sedenii and Schroderae.


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## Kevin (Nov 27, 2011)

AquaGem said:


> This plant/division came from Glen Decker. If you google this plant and clone you will get to see that it has been pretty much the same as the other Sedenii. Schroederae has much longer petals.



You mean this: http://www.pipingrockorchids.com/phragmipediums/phragmipedium-sedenii-hildegarde.php?

How is it possible to get long, droopy petals and a large dorsal from longifolium and schlimii? Are there any other Sedeniis that look like this one?


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## AquaGem (Nov 28, 2011)

Kevin said:


> You mean this: http://www.pipingrockorchids.com/phragmipediums/phragmipedium-sedenii-hildegarde.php?
> 
> How is it possible to get long, droopy petals and a large dorsal from longifolium and schlimii? Are there any other Sedeniis that look like this one?



Yes... this one... hahaha...


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## Susie11 (Nov 28, 2011)

What a beauty. It is lovely. Another one for the collection


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## Roth (Nov 28, 2011)

It's beautiful, but I am sure there is caudatum in... Looks like Schroderae. I don't know where Glenn got it, but at a point, he bought from two sources divisions and selected plants that were all mislabeled ( from the Eric Young, and from Germany/Netherlands). As a fact, his awarded esquirolei ( Haley Suzanne) is one of those pot plant hybrids similar to the Taka. Now I am sure he is honest, that's not the point, but he trusted the wrong suppliers sometimes.


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## SlipperKing (Nov 28, 2011)

Schroederae is my vote as well.


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## AquaGem (Nov 28, 2011)

Roth said:


> It's beautiful, but I am sure there is caudatum in... Looks like Schroderae. I don't know where Glenn got it, but at a point, he bought from two sources divisions and selected plants that were all mislabeled ( from the Eric Young, and from Germany/Netherlands). As a fact, his awarded esquirolei ( Haley Suzanne) is one of those pot plant hybrids similar to the Taka. Now I am sure he is honest, that's not the point, but he trusted the wrong suppliers sometimes.



The esquirolei is suppose to be Taka x self. Anyways, the plant has been in Japan for over 12 years now. This Sedenii is from a source in the USA so nothing to do with the European side.


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## Roth (Nov 28, 2011)

AquaGem said:


> The esquirolei is suppose to be Taka x self. Anyways, the plant has been in Japan for over 12 years now.



Approximately yes (still very expensive), and that's a sister plant of 'Taka', a pot plant hybrid made by Orchideen Wichmann... Taka is absolutely sterile, like the others from this crop, as they are aneuploids hybrids. I witnessed that story (same for Atlas, etc... they are from Wichmann) and know who had the idea and who did that ( the same that did the rothschildianum album).

Those Sedenii, Schroderae, Albopurpureum, I do not know exactly about this cultivars, but I know as a fact that Michel Paul, through Mike Tibbs, sold hundreds of divisions ( including the old RHS awarded ones) to California, including Orchids of Los Osos in the 90's. 

After that, Glenn got a batch of plants from another nursery in the Netherlands of phrags, some with proper parentage, some not so let's say, and still related to those people ( one RHS judge, and another one vice chairman at a point of the Netherlands Commercial Orchid Growers Association, so we would think they can be trusted).


Many were, of course not properly labeled. Many of those hybrids, like Sedenii, Schroderae, came nearly all from Europe, and were not remade until the end of the 90's-2000. Some could never be successfully remade like the old ones too.

That's a very nice Schroderae you have definitely, but it is not Sedenii... I tend to think that it is a pure Schroderae actually, not one of its hybrids.


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## AquaGem (Nov 28, 2011)

Roth said:


> Approximately yes (still very expensive), and that's a sister plant of 'Taka', a pot plant hybrid made by Orchideen Wichmann... Taka is absolutely sterile, like the others from this crop, as they are aneuploids hybrids. I witnessed that story (same for Atlas, etc... they are from Wichmann) and know who had the idea and who did that ( the same that did the rothschildianum album).
> 
> Those Sedenii, Schroderae, Albopurpureum, I do not know exactly about this cultivars, but I know as a fact that Michel Paul, through Mike Tibbs, sold hundreds of divisions ( including the old RHS awarded ones) to California, including Orchids of Los Osos in the 90's.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the clarifications.


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## Kevin (Nov 28, 2011)

No matter what it actually is, Glenn shouldn't be selling them under the name he got them, if he knows it's wrong. Hard to believe that he would think that this flower is really a Sedenii. Maybe none of them have bloomed for him yet? If so, he should be made aware of the error here. He is a respected vendor, and this kind of thing is not good for reputation.


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## tomkalina (Nov 28, 2011)

I'm with Xavier on this one - it's definitely Schroderae and not Sedenii. Also, it doesn't look like the Sedenii shown on the Piping Rock website link, (which actually looks like a Calurum to me).....So many of these old hybrids have been confused; mixed tags, lost tags, intentional mislabelling, etc. that it's hard to know sometimes what the correct name was originally.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 28, 2011)

I agree....it looks to me like Schroderae. How large are the flowers?


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## AquaGem (Nov 28, 2011)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> I agree....it looks to me like Schroderae. How large are the flowers?



vertical Spread is about 4 inches... will inform him...


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 28, 2011)

Hmmm.....that's a bit small for Schroderae.


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## Kevin (Nov 28, 2011)

AquaGem said:


> vertical Spread is about 4 inches



The _entire_ flower, or just the petals? 4" seems small for any caudatum hybrid, but I'm no expert.


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## AquaGem (Nov 29, 2011)

Kevin said:


> The _entire_ flower, or just the petals? 4" seems small for any caudatum hybrid, but I'm no expert.



Will measure and update later.


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## SlipperFan (Nov 29, 2011)

Kevin said:


> No matter what it actually is, Glenn shouldn't be selling them under the name he got them, if he knows it's wrong. Hard to believe that he would think that this flower is really a Sedenii. Maybe none of them have bloomed for him yet? If so, he should be made aware of the error here. He is a respected vendor, and this kind of thing is not good for reputation.



Glenn probably sold them as seedlings, before he saw the flowers. If he knew it is not as advertised, he'd be the first to tell you.


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## Kevin (Nov 30, 2011)

AquaGem said:


> This plant/division came from Glen Decker.



Was this an actual division, or an unbloomed seedling, AquaGem? Let us know what Glen says.


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## AquaGem (Nov 30, 2011)

SlipperFan said:


> Glenn probably sold them as seedlings, before he saw the flowers. If he knew it is not as advertised, he'd be the first to tell you.




Was soldas division.. as stated on his website. He is on vacation now so will call him next week.


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## koshki (Nov 30, 2011)

Since I haven't been able to get either my Sedenii or Schroederae to bloom, I will just have to enjoy yours (whatever it is!)


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