# Legality of helenae and others



## swamprad (Apr 30, 2009)

I know this has been discussed before, but I'm still not clear on certain issues regarding the legality of some slippers in the U.S. 

I know that there are some legal helenae and vietnamense plants in the U.S. Therefore it is my understanding that, for all practical purposes, these two species and their hybrids can be considered legal to own, as well as to show for AOS judging. In other words, your particular plant may not be one of the legal ones, but no one could tell the difference. Of course, if there was some evidence that a particular plant had been brought in illegally, that would be a different matter. And this does not mean that someone can legally import more of them. Am I correct, or is there more to it than that? May I show these two species and their hybrids for AOS judging? Is there any type of proof of legality required by the AOS?

It is also my understanding that no other of the other Paph. species discovered after CITES are legal to own (or show) in the U.S. Is this correct, or are there some legal plants of species other than helenae and vietnamense?

I also understand that the powers that be are completely unconcerned with small-time hobbyists who might be growing and propagating these technicallly illegal plants. A grower could get in trouble, however, if he was caught trying to import illegal plants into the U.S. Am I correct?


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## NYEric (Apr 30, 2009)

I was told, by a recently-divorced California based species specialist vendor, that lots of paphs came in pre-CITES but they were mis-identified. Therefore lots of plants can be shown and anyone would have a hard time arguing about their legality.


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## tim (Apr 30, 2009)

*legality*

As far as I'm aware, the AOS requires proof of legality for everything other than vietnamense and its hybrids. It would be rare for anyone (including AOS judges) to bring you to task for exhibiting "illegal" species at a show, but these "illegal" plants would now be judged by the AOS without proof of their legality. According to the AOS, not enough "legal" helenae plants have been produced to consider it for judging without proof of legality. 

The difference between vietnamense and helenae is in the differences between how these two species were produced; Antec released flasks and many plants of vietnamense, and only a few plants of helenae. The only "legal" helenae that have been awarded all have the tag line "proof of legality on file" (this as of AQ Plus 3.4) except the clone 'Lana Marie' which should have that line as well, if the correct steps were taken by the AOS in granting its award. I beleive this clone belongs to a forum member; perhaps he can clarify if he provided paperwork for it...The clone 'Tower Grove' was awarded a CHM for the Missouri Botanic Garden, but this award was nullified (I assume due to non-payment for the award by the botanic garden).

Other post-CITES paphs and their hybrids must have paperwork provided. So for example, unless the venustum x helenae currently for sale on slippertalk has paperwork, it cannot be AOS-awarded (but I'm sure you could exhibit at a show if you wanted for ribbon judging). Some vendors carry these papers for other species and their hybrids, and others do not. If you can get papers then you can exhibit these plants for AOS judging, but if not, then the plant will not (or, according to the AOS, should not) get awarded.

Personally, I think all of this is pretty ridiculous considering the number and quality of flasks produced of these "illegal" species and their hybrids in Taiwan...they should all be legal and we should stop worrying about it...just look here!!

I hope this clarifies things; if not, ask!!

-Tim


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## smartie2000 (Apr 30, 2009)

do these same problems occur in Canada?
A lot of flasks of the new vietnamese species/hybrids come from outside of North America here, but they are indeed from flask. The only people I really get paperwork from is from Cloud's Orchids and a reciept from Paramount, but any purchases from small growers have no receipt


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## slippertalker (Apr 30, 2009)

Of course, the exceptions to what Tim has stated quite clearly are AOS shows that are held out side the U.S. The "illegal" species and hybrids that are legally imported in places like Canada and Taiwan can be judged and awarded.


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## Kyle (Apr 30, 2009)

Hi.

I had Paph helenae 'Lana Marie' awarded last October in Calgary. I was asked where it came from, but was never asked for proof. I have a reciept from the nursery and a phyto. The problem with the phyto is that they don't list what species are in the flasks. I bought 3 flasks from Ching Hua orchids in 2006, I have had 5 plants bloom to date.

Kyle


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## NYEric (Apr 30, 2009)

It's a crapfest!


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## pdxpaphguy (May 1, 2009)

There was a helenae given an HCC at our judging center recently that when the owner went to finalize the award with the AOS was told they wouldn't/couldn't because of the legality issue. So I'm guessing we're not there yet with helenae or he didn't have the proper papers.


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## Hien (May 1, 2009)

pdxpaphguy said:


> There was a helenae given an HCC at our judging center recently that when the owner went to finalize the award with the AOS was told they wouldn't/couldn't because of the legality issue. So I'm guessing we're not there yet with helenae or he didn't have the proper papers.


 Lucky owner, he/she just saved some money in registration.
Did the judges confer the HCC based on the comparison with their own helenae flowers in their greenhouse collections?


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## slippertalker (May 1, 2009)

Hien,

They probably were able to compare it to the previous award in Canada using AQ+ which gives them a baseline to make that determination. Usually the first award is a CHM or CBR, then thereafter quality awards are derived. Of course, there are exceptions and notable were the FCC's given to the first plants of Paph armeniacum and Paph micranthum which are both amazingly different species, especially at that point in time. The wisdom of those choices has been questioned and for quite valid reasons. This is one major reason for the CHM given to the Phrag kovachii rather than a quality award.


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## NYEric (May 1, 2009)

Hien said:


> Did the judges confer the HCC based on the comparison with their own helenae flowers in their greenhouse collections?


Hee Hee :evil:


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## pdxpaphguy (May 2, 2009)

NYeric beat me to it. I like the way you think Hien


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