# Would you consisder paph delenatii multiflorals?



## baodai (Dec 26, 2010)

Hello all,
I would like to know if you consisder paph delenatii is multi-floral paph? if you answer is yes then why? no then why?
To me it is multi-floral paph, because most people don't grow them to it full potential or often don't see them has multiflowers. It is not the plant at fault but people fault, I can post some more multi delenatii if you still has question about this paph.
Thank,
BaoDai


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## paphreek (Dec 26, 2010)

My Paph delenatii 'Deerwood' AM/AOS routinely has two flowers per stem, also. I believe that the term "multi-floral" is reserved for plants of the Coryopetalum and Pardalopetalum sections and their hybrids.


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## cliokchi (Dec 26, 2010)

Hi guys,

merry xmas all , I totally agree with what Ross said
sometimes you can find Paph. niveum from langkawi island with up to 4 flowers on a single spike, 
this also happens to P.concolor, P.callosum 'thailandense' and P. delenatii 2 to 4 flowers single spike
great group of Delenatii's got there Baodai nice flowers but also great job done growing them like this
cliokchi



paphreek said:


> My Paph delenatii 'Deerwood' AM/AOS routinely has two flowers per stem, also. I believe that the term "multi-floral" is reserved for plants of the Coryopetalum and Pardalopetalum sections and their hybrids.


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## PaphMadMan (Dec 26, 2010)

I agree with Ross. At least among serious Paph people multifloral refers to species like rothschildianum and lowii and others in those sections where most species typically have 3 or more flowers. It is a short-hand reference to a related group of species and their hybrids rather than simply a description of how many flowers a particular plant has on a particular blooming. Even sequentially flowering species like glaucophyllum, that may have the largest number of total flowers per spike, are excluded.


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## Rick (Dec 26, 2010)

paphreek said:


> My Paph delenatii 'Deerwood' AM/AOS routinely has two flowers per stem, also. I believe that the term "multi-floral" is reserved for plants of the Coryopetalum and Pardalopetalum sections and their hybrids.



I think the term "multi-floral" is a gray term coming from AOS or Royal Botanic judging standards. It also uses the wording "normally" or "usually" in association to flower count. Although its common to get two flowers per spike on a brachy or parvi, 3 or 4 flowers is not "normal or usual". Just for the sake of being inconsistent I realize that most people haven't regularly seen more than 3 flowers on a dianthum or wilhelminea either, but they seem to be the exceptions rather than the norm for the subgenera. 

At this time it has been implied to include the subgenera Ross has listed, but there is no explicit mention of these genera in the AOS judging catalog. 

The term is useful for having something like sukhakulii not have to compete with the likes of rothchildianum.

Use of the term "multi" is also shorthand notation on a quasi taxonomic basis for saying "Coryopetalum and Pardalopetalum sections and their hybrids".

I think your multi-delenatii is awesome looking, but in a show of "multis" I put my money on a big Coryopetalum.


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## NYEric (Dec 26, 2010)

Nice, bring me back a couple of those, thanx.


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## SlipperFan (Dec 26, 2010)

But cross a many flowered delenatii with a multifloral and... the result can be amazingly lovely. Or really bad...

What I would like to know, baodai, is how does one grow delenatii to it's full potential?


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Dec 26, 2010)

I think multifloral should be reserved for paphs that normally produce 2 or more blooms/spike. Yes, you can get a single flowered roth, phil, or primulinum...but normally they have more. While delanatii usually has 2 blooms/spike, that doesn't always apply. Usually its cultural...most of the time it will have 2, in a bad year it will have 1. But sometimes its clonal. I have a delanatii blooming for the 3rd time in less than 2 years. It will be a single bloom. It has never produced more than 1 bud. It is large and incredibly vigorous. I've had tiny delanatii's that grew poorly, yet still produced 2 buds to a spike. So I think genetics does play a strong part in whether or not a plant can be multifloral. When the genetics dictate that it should almost always be multi, its multifloral. When genetics dictate that a plant should frequently, but not always, be multi, well, its just not a multifloral.


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## baodai (Dec 29, 2010)

SlipperFan said:


> What I would like to know, baodai, is how does one grow delenatii to it's full potential?


To me delenatii desever more that just a simple parvis plant. So, let's me ask you this way, if you have more than 1000 delenatii and about 80% has atleast 2 or more flower, then is it the gene or correct culture or whatever it is!!! (Note: this is species come from diff location)

Dot,
No one has the same culture, I will explain better culture when i have time. 
BD


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## NYEric (Dec 29, 2010)

Maybe it's a productive strain.


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## goldenrose (Dec 29, 2010)

baodai said:


> To me delenatii desever more that just a simple parvis plant. So, let's me ask you this way, if you have more than 1000 delenatii and about 80% has atleast 2 or more flower, then is it the gene or correct culture or whatever it is!!! (Note: this is species come from diff location)....


Interesting thread. 1-2 flowers is what I would consider the norm/average for the species. Proper culture could take that 1 flower plant to 2 but to me that's still the norm/average, doesn't make it a multi. If we're talking 3 flowers that's above normal/average, then I'd have to go with genes + culture and I want at least one of those plants! If it threw 3 flowers consistently then it would be hard not to call it a multi, as Rick said, it's a gray area.


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## Ernie (Dec 29, 2010)

Yes, I'd expect two flowers per stem from a good delenatii clone under good culture, sometimes you see three. Happy Brachys and Parvis can certainly be oligofloral. A quick run through my memories and I can say for sure that I've seen bellatulum, niveum, delenatii, dele albinum, armeniacum, malipoense, vietnamense, micranthum all with two flowers at some point. Have seen concolor, delenatii, delenatii albinum, and vietnamense with three on a stem too. In fact, I almost expect three on a good concolor. Shoot, Barbata species and hybrids can also get two per stem. So, do we call these "multifloral"? No, not really. I agree that the term is unofficially reserved for the coryos. Although I call Pardalos "sequential" and the Cochlos "successive". If I were entering them in a show for ribbon judging, I wouldn't enter a bi- or tri- floral delenatii into the multifloral class as it would usually fit better into the Parvi or white/pink classes (depending on the club's classing scheme).


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## TyroneGenade (Dec 30, 2010)

cliokchi said:


> ...sometimes you can find Paph. niveum from langkawi island with up to 4 flowers on a single spike...



Oo! That sounds like great breeding material for white multiflorals (Brachypetalum x Polyantha). Are these plants in cultivation?


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## goldenrose (Dec 30, 2010)

cliokchi said:


> ....sometimes you can find Paph. niveum from langkawi island with up to 4 flowers on a single spike ...QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Rick (Dec 30, 2010)

goldenrose said:


> cliokchi said:
> 
> 
> > ....sometimes you can find Paph. niveum from langkawi island with up to 4 flowers on a single spike ...QUOTE]
> ...


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## Bolero (Dec 30, 2010)

Love the photos. I can't see why a plant with 2 or more flowers per stem isn't multifloral though.


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## Ernie (Dec 31, 2010)

Bolero said:


> Love the photos. I can't see why a plant with 2 or more flowers per stem isn't multifloral though.



It's a question of symantics, I think. Yes, happy delenatii make several flowers per spike and CAN certainly be called multifloral. You can't argue that. However, if someone says "the multifloral Paphs" one normally wouldn't think of delenatii but would relate roths, sandy, phili, praestans, stonei... You can call them what you want, they're your plants.


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## Rick (Dec 31, 2010)

Ernie said:


> It's a question of symantics, I think. Yes, happy delenatii make several flowers per spike and CAN certainly be called multifloral. You can't argue that. However, if someone says "the multifloral Paphs" one normally wouldn't think of delenatii but would relate roths, sandy, phili, praestans, stonei... You can call them what you want, they're your plants.



Yes the dictionary definition of anything multi is more than 1. So by that definition just about all paphs have the potential to be "multi" floral.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jan 1, 2011)

Again, its what is normal for the plant. A coryopetalum or a pardalopetalum will normally produce 2 or more flowers. While delanatii is expected to produce 2 flowers, it doesn't always. And as I've said, I have a clone that grows very well, blooms frequently, and has large blooms...yet only produces 1 bloom/spike. This must be genetic, not cultural. I have also heard of concolors that only produce 1 bloom. I have also heard of others that produce 3. So I think the term has to be restricted (practically speaking) to paphs that routinely produce 2 or more blooms on a genetic basis. Actually, all unifloral paphs seem to produce a 2nd bud that usually doesn't develop....extreemely tiny. But, sometimes it does develop.


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## likespaphs (Jan 1, 2011)

i thought that the multiple flower traits were mostly introduced by selective breeding of plants with a higher than typical number of flowers for the species, that and plants grown in good conditions can occasionally put off more...then again, this is entirely speculative....


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## Howzat (Jan 23, 2011)

Very good BaoDai. If you go to TIOS, bring some flasks, I ll buy them. Last year I bought a flask of vini delenatii from Ching Hwa (Dennis Kao). Don't really know what he meant with vini, but he said it is a strain with dark coloring. Please let me know. I have also asked Xavier Garreau from Hanoi. Don't know if he has flasks. Are you from Thailand or Vietnam???


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## Rick (Jan 23, 2011)

likespaphs said:


> i thought that the multiple flower traits were mostly introduced by selective breeding of plants with a higher than typical number of flowers for the species, that and plants grown in good conditions can occasionally put off more...then again, this is entirely speculative....



No

You need to go back to field descriptions of wild plants that the general taxonomy was based on. Philippinense was producing 3 or more flowers (5-7), and callosum was producing 1 or 2 per spike before their "discovery" by Europeans in the 1800's. In or out of the greenhouses. Orchid shows and judging go back just about as far back as orchids Western debut, which predates most selective breeding and hybridization.

But orchid judging classes are only loosely based on classification especially in consideration of hybrids (which are not shown and judged with species).

There is more to a Coryopetalum than just its multifloral trait. So a population (cultivated or natural) of 3 flowered delenatii will not get reclassified as a Coryopetalum. No one will stop you from entering a 3 flowered delenatii in the multifloral species class of an orchid show, show classes do not define taxonomy, and it will probably not win that class when compared to Coryo (or Pardalo) entries.

The purpose of the orchid show class was to provide an even playing field for competition of the myriad forms of orchid "expression", and was never meant to enforce or develop systematics or taxonomy.


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## likespaphs (Jan 23, 2011)

Rick said:


> No
> 
> You need to go back to field descriptions of wild plants that the general taxonomy was based on. Philippinense was producing 3 or more flowers (5-7), and callosum was producing 1 or 2 per spike before their "discovery" by Europeans in the 1800's. In or out of the greenhouses. Orchid shows and judging go back just about as far back as orchids Western debut, which predates most selective breeding and hybridization....




cool!
thanks.
any suggestions where to look for field descriptions or do i just google 'field description paphiopedilum philippinense'?

{well, i tried the google search and didn't have any luck}


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## W. Beetus (Jan 23, 2011)

I wouldn't consider it to be a multifloral just because of delenatii's different cultural requirements. But, I would be quite happy if I could get more than one bloom from a spike on delenatii! Nice!


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## Rick (Jan 23, 2011)

likespaphs said:


> cool!
> thanks.
> any suggestions where to look for field descriptions or do i just google 'field description paphiopedilum philippinense'?
> 
> {well, i tried the google search and didn't have any luck}



I haven't had much trouble in finding either the type or field descriptions in books like Cribb's, Birk's, or Averyanov's.

The Type descriptions can be very old (1800's) but may be updated if info has improved. It also may be based on a preserved or pressed specimen. It's not always easy to find the reference for what gets put into the authors books.

I'm presently looking at the description for P. glanduliferum in Cribb's 2nd edition on Paphs (1998):
Leaves up to 40 cm long 3-5.5cm wide
Inflorescence 2-5 flowered.......


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## likespaphs (Jan 23, 2011)

okay, thanks
i thought you meant there was a place online to find that info


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