# Paph tortipetalum



## Rick (Jul 18, 2009)

I got this plant from Glenn Decker (after a tip from Rick H. if I remember correctly). I also noted that Ayreon posted a pic of his from a European source that sparked a big taxonomy debate. Without knowing where the parent stock originated from I'm not sure if you can tell this apart from bullenium. From that earlier debate it came out that the concept of tortipetalum is found on the Malay peninsula which would put it on a contiguous land mass with appletonium (which is an extremely variable species in Vietnam) rather than bullenium. However, it is apparent that the appletonium/bullenium flower type seems to be ecologically and geographically widespread and successful.

From a cultivation standpoint this flower has some differences from appletonium I've had which I think make it distinct enough to have both in a collection.
1) This species is flowering in the summer while many appletonium seem to bloom late fall and winter.
2) The flower is much glossier with richer colors than most appletonium I've seen

Enjoy the pics


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## paphjoint (Jul 18, 2009)

Very nice !


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## Ayreon (Jul 18, 2009)

Nice! Mine is dead R.I.P


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## Hera (Jul 18, 2009)

I thought I was the only paph killer on this site! 

Nice pouch on this one. I like the undulations (there's a word for you).


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## SlipperFan (Jul 18, 2009)

I wonder if the dorsal will flatten out?


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## NYEric (Jul 18, 2009)

Very interesting color.


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## Rick (Jul 19, 2009)

SlipperFan said:


> I wonder if the dorsal will flatten out?


This flower has been very slow to open, so it probably will.

I'll update if it changes appreciably.


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## Bolero (Jul 19, 2009)

Yeah it doesn't look like it's completely open yet.


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## likespaphs (Jul 19, 2009)

Hera said:


> I thought I was the only paph killer on this site!...



you're kidding, right? 
some people say you can't be an expert (or experienced) grower without killing your weight in orchids.....


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## Roy (Jul 19, 2009)

likespaphs said:


> you're kidding, right?
> some people say you can't be an expert (or experienced) grower without killing your weight in orchids.....



How true this statement is !!!!!!!


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## SlipperKing (Jul 19, 2009)

Very nice flowering Rick. It looks very much like the described Paph bullenianum rather then any appletonianum that I've seen. But as you have said, appletonianum complex is widespread.


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## Rick (Jul 19, 2009)

SlipperKing said:


> Very nice flowering Rick. It looks very much like the described Paph bullenianum rather then any appletonianum that I've seen. But as you have said, appletonianum complex is widespread.



Thanks Rick. I think this flower is different from the bulk of appletonium too. Whether or not the distinctions are different enough to warrant species status I'd have to shrug my shoulders.

I can see more differences between Anglo (even splitting for say Italian vs Norwegian), Hispanic, Asian, Native America (even at the tribal level say Osage vs Navajo), and all species Homo sapiens, than I can see for the differences between this flower vs bullenianum and appletonianum.

So all I can do is leave it labeled as is, and enjoy the debate. It would be interesting to see some good DNA work or pollination studies done in this complex to see how much real differentiation there is.


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## GuRu (Jul 19, 2009)

likespaphs said:


> ....some people say you can't be an expert (or experienced) grower without killing your weight in orchids.....



Does this mean vice versa that slim or slender persons are better orchid growers??  : :evil:

Best regards from Germany, rudolf


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## biothanasis (Jul 19, 2009)

beautiful and interesting flower!!!


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## Faan (Jul 19, 2009)

What happens to the color of the pouch in its offspring?


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## SlipperFan (Jul 19, 2009)

GuRu said:


> Does this mean vice versa that slim or slender persons are better orchid growers??  : :evil:



:rollhappy:


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## Greenpaph (Jul 19, 2009)

Very lovely! 

Thanks for sharing!


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## Rick (Jul 26, 2009)

Bolero said:


> Yeah it doesn't look like it's completely open yet.



This is about as open as it's going to get. Closeup of the pouch is interesting.


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## Barbara (Jul 27, 2009)

Your plant does look very similar, especially the more recent pictures, to my hainanense (syn. appletonianum v. hainanense). My hainanense might have a smaller pouch and slightly more colour, however the veining on tortipetalum's pouch is just wonderful. I'll keep an eye out for this one too, many thanks for sharing it.







Unfortunately, I don’t have a decent picture of the foliage but can get one if you need.

I checked the timestamp on the photo and it says Jan. 30, 2009, so it's typical of appletonianum in that regard.


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## naoki (Jun 21, 2013)

It looks like you secretly sent a fruit of this plant to Troy Myers! I just put myself to the waiting list. I hope there will be enough germination.


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## Trithor (Jun 22, 2013)

Lovely flower Rick, it has great petal attitude and as already discussed, the pouch is amazing.


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## Stone (Jun 22, 2013)

Nice. Hard to grow?


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## Rick (Jun 22, 2013)

Not especially different to grow than appletonianum or bullenianum.


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## Trithor (Jun 22, 2013)

Not growing any of them, does that mean it is difficult or easy?


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## Rick (Jun 22, 2013)

Trithor said:


> Not growing any of them, does that mean it is difficult or easy?



If you have trouble with Barbata types like some of us (including myself) used to have, then somewhat difficult. But going to baskets and low K has made this group in general much easier for me.:wink:

This species may be sympatric with calosum var subleave or barbatum (Malay archipelago). So barbatum may be a good reference plant.


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## Chicago Chad (Jun 22, 2013)

Rick- 
What is the significance of using basket culture in a species like this? I can and have seen the benefit with this in micranthum and armenicaum because of the runners, but since it would not be for that reason I was uncertain.


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## Rick (Jun 24, 2013)

Chicago Chad said:


> Rick-
> What is the significance of using basket culture in a species like this? I can and have seen the benefit with this in micranthum and armenicaum because of the runners, but since it would not be for that reason I was uncertain.



http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18566&highlight=Mark+date

Check out this thread Chad.

It's not a panacea for all culture woes, but it was a good start for me before coming up with reduced K feeding (note that Marc is using K lite for his tigrinum).

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20716

This is when we started looking at K inhibition to orchids.


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## Chicago Chad (Jun 24, 2013)

Rick- I am aware of the argument for K lite and I myself am giving it a trial run over the next year. I am about 2 months in so far.

My question was to the benefit of basket culture on a paph that does not have runners? Is it that you just had more success with basket culture over traditional potting techniques, regardless of the substrate?


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jun 24, 2013)

I think basket culture is only practical in a greenhouse, where high humidity can be maintained. Baskets would allow perfect air circulation around the roots, and drying out wouldn't be a problem in high humidity. If I tried baskets in my house, or even outdoors with our inconsistent weather, I'd be feeding the composter.


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## Stone (Jun 24, 2013)

Chicago Chad said:


> Rick- I am aware of the argument for K lite and I myself am giving it a trial run over the next year. I am about 2 months in so far.
> 
> My question was to the benefit of basket culture on a paph that does not have runners? Is it that you just had more success with basket culture over traditional potting techniques, regardless of the substrate?



A paph will grow better/faster in a basket because of the free root run combined with greater air availability ( top, sides and bottom ) If you planted into a pot with the same volume of media it wouldn't work because of the restricted air exchage from the top of the medium only. The mix would become stale ( I'm not exactly sure what ''stale'' means but it probably has something to do with certain molds proliferating? ) and inhibit the roots or even kill them. It also has the benefit of being able to use large quantities of water with quicker drying and all the benifits of that. I planted an insigne into the floor of my greenhouse (100% larva) and its absolutely thriving. Its the free root run into a constantly fresh media that makes the difference. Theoretically you should be able to use large containers if your mix is 100% mineral or ''inert''


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## UweM (Jun 25, 2013)

Hi Rick,

to my mind it is a true Paph. tortipetalum, which comes from the Barisan Mountain east of Payakumbuk (Central Sumatra).

It looks like Paph. johorensis from Gunong Panti (Johore) from the southern Malaysian Penisular. 

More information can be found here: Orchid Digest 4 / 1985


Some times later, Paul Matthes collected on the island of Tioman another very similar Paphiopedilum which looks like Paph. johorensis (Orchid Digest 6/1985).


The opinion of some "experts": there are synonyms of bulleninanum


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## limuhead (Jun 25, 2013)

There is only ONE way to tell if it is a TRUE tortipetalum. That is to bloom it at 1,150 foot elevation in Hawaii. Do you need my shipping address?


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## Chicago Chad (Jun 25, 2013)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> I think basket culture is only practical in a greenhouse, where high humidity can be maintained. Baskets would allow perfect air circulation around the roots, and drying out wouldn't be a problem in high humidity. If I tried baskets in my house, or even outdoors with our inconsistent weather, I'd be feeding the composter.



ditto.

I grow indoors and this is not a viable option. Regardless of the humidty problems, it tends to make a mess.


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## Leo Schordje (Jun 25, 2013)

Rick, 
to my eye, it looks like true tortipetalum. I started collecting Paphs in 1979, when Ray Rands was in business and there was no CITES restrictions for anything except elephant tusks and tiger pelts. At the time I quickly picked up every appletonianum and bullenianum related paph that Rands would offer. Unfortunately K-Lite wasn't around, and only my one plant of tortipetalum persists from those days. But before they slowly failed to thrive, I bloomed at least 6 different races of the bullenianum. You would kill for the red leafed version of bullenianum, from somewhere in Sumatra, the leaves had a wonderful red flush, with bright silvery tesselation. Just beautiful. I still shed a tear at the loss of this one. At the time I didn't realize that there would be just one batch imported, and never again. I still tear up about loosing that one. 

I feel the bullenianum complex of geographic races, which includes tortipetalum and others is a true species, very distinct from the appletonianum/wolterianum/hainaniense group. Almost everyone who claims that there is no difference between appletonianum and bullenianum groups have never had a correctly identified plant in bloom in front of them. THere are a lot of appletonianum floating around being passed off as bullenianum or johorensis or tortipetalum. Very few true bullenianums are in cultivation. The shape of the staminode sheild on your plant is NOT the same as the staminode sheild on the appletonianum posted in this thread. Rick, you have the real deal. I'll post pictures of mine when it blooms.


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## Leo Schordje (Jun 25, 2013)

No 'hooks' on the bullenianum staminode sheild, just the v notch. 

Appletonianum has distinct 'hooks'


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## Chicago Chad (Jun 25, 2013)

Leo Schordje said:


> You would kill for the red leafed version of bullenianum, from somewhere in Sumatra, the leaves had a wonderful red flush, with bright silvery tesselation. Just beautiful. I still shed a tear at the loss of this one. At the time I didn't realize that there would be just one batch imported, and never again. I still tear up about loosing that one.



as would I; on description alone.


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## Rick (Jun 25, 2013)

I got the plant from Glenn Decker, and I don't know what his source was.

I picked it up because it was quite different from the appletonianums I've had in the past, but I'm not prepared to defend its species status from all the bullenianum races that folks have discovered and named.

Maybe GD does??


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## Trithor (Jun 26, 2013)

Rick said:


> I got the plant from Glenn Decker, and I don't know what his source was.
> 
> I picked it up because it was quite different from the appletonianums I've had in the past, but I'm not prepared to defend its species status from all the bullenianum races that folks have discovered and named.
> 
> Maybe GD does??



Rick, am I reading this correctly, that you have a living example of one with a red flush to the leaves? If so, wont you post a pic that we can see what the differences are? (Please)


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## UweM (Jun 26, 2013)

some pics for identification:









1 - Paph. celebesense

2 - Paph. bullenianum

3+4 - Paph. linii

5 - Paph. hainanense

6 - Paph. wolterianum

7 - Paph. hainanense ? 

8 - Paph. appletonianum





and pics from the bullenianum complex:


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## Chicago Chad (Jun 26, 2013)

Thanks UweM for the pics. Aside form the staminodes, as mentioned by Leo, and slight variations in the dorsal, they all look the same to me.


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## Trithor (Jun 26, 2013)

The staminode differences are quite marked though. At what level of difference in the staminode would it be considered sufficient for sepparation of species?


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## Hera (Jun 26, 2013)

INteresting pictures and good question. When does a difference count as a species not just a variation? Some species are quite variable and not separated and I wonder if this is a measure of a person's motivation to categorize it so. A more focused approach per se. At what limit are categorizations useful/ not useful.


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## SlipperKing (Jun 26, 2013)

Very nice comparitive pictures, it is what is is, bullenianum complex. In geological times a very young seperation/isolation but not there yet. At this point, I would say variations of the same complex...bullenianum. maybe, in 50 thousand years from now we can come back and revisit this discussion!


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## Trithor (Jun 27, 2013)

In 50 thousand years I will hold you to that! Perhaps then at the same time we can revisit the barbatum/callosum/viniferum group as well, and of course the old favourite villosum/affine/gratrixianum?


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## SlipperKing (Jun 27, 2013)

It's a date!


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## Rick (Jun 27, 2013)

Trithor said:


> The staminode differences are quite marked though. At what level of difference in the staminode would it be considered sufficient for sepparation of species?



In "Slipper Orchids of Vietnam (pg222)" Averyanov has a chart of 16 different staminode shapes for appletonianum. The shape range exceeds that of these bullenianum complex species posted by UweM.

So in comparison to appletonianum, I would say there is insufficient variation to warrant species status.

I think the only way to determine species status would be by a pollinator study.


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## UweM (Jun 27, 2013)

for comparison - some pics from Paph. aplletonianum (No. 7,11,12) or Paph. wolterianum (No.8)


















or Paph. cerveranum


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## Ozpaph (Jun 27, 2013)

Trithor said:


> In 50 thousand years I will hold you to that!



Keep the beer cold. 
I'll bring my own slippers!


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## Leo Schordje (Jun 28, 2013)

Thank you UweM very much for the photos. Much appreciated.


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## SlipperFan (Jun 28, 2013)

I agree -- interesting variations.


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## Trithor (Jun 29, 2013)

Any discussion in 50k years will deserve comfy slippers and cold beer. I will supply snacks as well.

Thanks for posting the comparative pictures, great job!


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## John M (Jun 30, 2013)

Rick, that first photo, taken "face on" to the flower nicely shows the peculiar petal shape (especially the tip), of tortipetalum. I found this feature to be unique to tortipetalum from among all the similar looking species. The petals don't have a spoon shape; but, rather, they almost look as if the spoon was cropped down. When I worked at a large orchid nursery, back in 1989, we imported a large assortment of wild collected species from Simanis Orchids. Paph tortipetalum was among them and they bloomed out to look just like your flower. To me, it's a very distinctive look. I would have no problems buying a flask of Paph. tortipetalum x self, using this clone as the parent.


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## JeanLux (Jun 30, 2013)

Hi John!!!! Great to read you again!!!! Jean


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## John M (Jun 30, 2013)

Hi Jean! Thanks!


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## Rick (Jun 30, 2013)

John M said:


> Hi Jean! Thanks!



Ya!

Where have you been (and up too)?


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## John M (Jun 30, 2013)

Just needed a break, Rick. You know....mid-life questioning of everything and trying to not be too overwhelmed with all of life's responsibilities.


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## SlipperFan (Jun 30, 2013)

Yes -- welcome back, John!


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## John M (Jun 30, 2013)

Thank you, Dot.


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