# Lacey Act/CITES at Gibson Guitar



## mormodes (Aug 28, 2011)

The USFWS raided Gibson Guitars looking for illegally harvested woods. Guitar hobbyists need proprer paperwork for pre-CITES classic guitars... Sound familiar?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html


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## Shiva (Aug 28, 2011)

We need not worry about alien invaders. The bureaucrats are here. :fight:


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## Hien (Aug 28, 2011)

In my humble opinion, everyone has to justify for his/her paycheck with the boss (include ourselves in our own professions, so the USFWS is no exception to this fact).
Same situation with the boss toward his superior. And so on. 
Untill we realize, there is only the wizard behind the curtain.
These things are small unreasonable actions. However, on the grand scale , when peoples follow rules/orders blindly & rigidly they can create a lot of suffering.
For example, in the Cambodian genocide (nobody is responsible for the crime, everybody just follow the order from above and so on, all the way to the top)
I don't know enough to say for other countries, but I believe countries that settled by persecuted peoples such as USA, Australia etc..generally have citizens with individualistic minds to question absurdity, and thing can be changed when it reaches absurdity)


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## Rick (Aug 28, 2011)

I read this article too.

Sounds over alarmist to me. They go after a handful of significant importers and big name dealers with the $$$, but I doubt even a professional guitarist with a handful of pre-act vintage guitars is really going to get spanked for loosing his receipts.


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## Ray (Aug 29, 2011)

Wait a minute.

If I commit a crime before it is illegal, I cannot be charged for it. How can endangered species imported before CITES be an issue?


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## Marc (Aug 29, 2011)

Ray said:


> Wait a minute.
> 
> If I commit a crime before it is illegal, I cannot be charged for it. How can endangered species imported before CITES be an issue?



It isn't but according to the rules that apply to the different parts of your guitar in the article you need to be able to show the customs officer that your guitar and all it's exotic materials are all pre lacey act.

Bureaucracy at it's best.


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## mormodes (Aug 29, 2011)

Marc said:


> It isn't but according to the rules that apply to the different parts of your guitar in the article you need to be able to show the customs officer that your guitar and all it's exotic materials are all pre lacey act.
> 
> Bureaucracy at it's best.



And Gibson has to prove that its present day mahogany & other wood stocks were properly harvested and imported from teh source country. Sort of like how we have to prove that the source of a flask/orchid was properly collected, grown in a nursery licensed to export.


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## Shiva (Aug 29, 2011)

In other words, you are guilty unless you can prove your innocence.


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## Kavanaru (Aug 29, 2011)

Shiva said:


> In other words, you are guilty unless you can prove your innocence.


Sounds like my former country of residence! :evil:


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## gonewild (Aug 29, 2011)

The Gibson raid and case is not about illegally harvested trees. The issue is that the wood was not legally exported from India and legally imported into the USA. It has nothing to do with CITES or endangered species.

The Indian government passed a law that prohibits the export of any piece or raw wood thicker than 6mm. Gibson and another company purchased wood 10mm thick and "mistakenly" declared that it was less than 6mm thick.
The Indian government did not pass the law to stop tree harvest but rather to keep the wood within India for Indian labor to make into finished products.

Gibson needs the wood in a raw form thicker than 6mm so......... just fill in the blanks and you have a violation of the Lacey Act. 

Basically the accusation is about smuggling and not an environmental issue. Not really applicable to CITES and orchids.


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## Hien (Aug 29, 2011)

gonewild said:


> The Gibson raid and case is not about illegally harvested trees. The issue is that the wood was not legally exported from India and legally imported into the USA. It has nothing to do with CITES or endangered species.
> 
> The Indian government passed a law that prohibits the export of any piece or raw wood thicker than 6mm. Gibson and another company purchased wood 10mm thick and "mistakenly" declared that it was less than 6mm thick.
> The Indian government did not pass the law to stop tree harvest but rather to keep the wood within India for Indian labor to make into finished products.
> ...



Wow, Lance, you explain the article clearly .


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## s1214215 (Aug 30, 2011)

OK Lance.. how then do antique guitars come into it then other than you must be able to prove their age and pre-CITES status.

I hate to say it again, but CITES largely is a toothless tiger for fighting illegal trade and really is about proping up the jobs of the bureacrats that run it. I could state a number of times I have had CITES agents offer to bend rules in various places. I can also say that CITES in some countries is most certainly corrupt and on the take.. One only has to see a box of orchids species out of some countries to know they are collected, yet arrive with CITES permits.

Brett


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## gonewild (Aug 30, 2011)

s1214215 said:


> OK Lance.. how then do antique guitars come into it then other than you must be able to prove their age and pre-CITES status.



The Gibson raid has nothing to do with CITES species (so far).
Antique guitars often are made with Brazilian Rosewood which is a CITES1 species. Unfortunately modern guitars are still being made with undocumented Brazilian Rosewood which makes them illegal to transport across international borders. In this case the problem is similar to orchids and CITES but again this is not what Gibson is about. The Gibson wood species involved are not endangered species, Gibson and the importer filed improper paperwork in violation of the Lacey Act. India created a law to restrict export of the Indian Rosewood not because the species is endangered but because they want to keep the species for their own Indian consumption and benefit with "value added products". It is the violation of the Indian rules that lead to the Gibson raid under the Lacey Act.

The other factor affecting antique or modern guitars is the Mother of Pearl or shell content. Any item containing any wildlife part has always needed a USFW permit to import into or export from the USA. Now it is becoming a big issue because they are starting to enforce the law. You can not bring into the USA an necklace made from bird feathers and you can not bring in a guitar made with shell, all under the same law.



> I hate to say it again, but CITES largely is a toothless tiger for fighting illegal trade and really is about proping up the jobs of the bureacrats that run it.



CITES has great big teeth, it's not toothless, it has just been stealthy stalking it's prey.



> I could state a number of times I have had CITES agents offer to bend rules in various places. I can also say that CITES in some countries is most certainly corrupt and on the take.. One only has to see a box of orchids species out of some countries to know they are collected, yet arrive with CITES permits.Brett



And USFW is very aware about exactly what you state above. That is why USFW is cracking down on CITES violations. They went in hard on orchids a few years back and now they are moving on the musical industry with "teeth".


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## Shiva (Aug 30, 2011)

And now they're picking on a guitar maker! Big rap this thing is!


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## Rick (Aug 30, 2011)

s1214215 said:


> how then do antique guitars come into it then other than you must be able to prove their age and pre-CITES status.



I guess another good thing about guitars (compared to wildlife itself) is that model and serial numbers are usually stamped onto them (sometime you really have to look hard) to prove a manufacturing date. So if the receipt is lost or the item was traded without paperwork the item is generally dated anyway.

Furthermore, an antique is only as valuable as the ability to date it in the first place. If an antique guitar owner is concerned about having a Lacey act violation then that person should be more concerned about the authentic age of the guitar in the first place.


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## TyroneGenade (May 24, 2013)

Marc said:


> It isn't but according to the rules that apply to the different parts of your guitar in the article you need to be able to show the customs officer that your guitar and all it's exotic materials are all pre lacey act.



So if you have a Burmese Teak door or a Stink- or Yellowwood table then you best beware... 

My wife wanted to bring her grandfather's piano along with us but once we started investigating US Customs issues with the ivory keys we abandoned that idea.

I'm pretty sure, for less than the cost of a CITES certificate, I could purchase a formal looking note that my ivory was not procured before CITES was instituted. Of course, I can't do this because I'm an honest person... but the recent spate of Rhino killings in S. Africa attest to, it pretty easy to get done in Vietnam.


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