# Compots



## Stone (Dec 11, 2011)

Just finished typing my post when the power went down and wiped everything :mad
In Oz its common practice for nurseries to sell orchids in small 11/2'' pots. Thats fine for things like catts, dends, oncids etc. which don't mind drying out but for paphs I feel that its difficult to maintain that ''just moist'' condition in such a small pot. You're always tipping out some of the mix to see what's going on.
The other problem I'm finding with these pots is that the roots will quickly reach the bottom and then seal off and stop growing resulting in a check in continuous growth.
Wen I grew cacti from seed I found that they did much better if they where transplanted into compots until they were a good size. They grew faster and cotinuously each plant seemed to almost be stimulated by its neighbour.
So I'm thinking of putting say- 4 plants of similar requirements together namely : 2 hainanense 1 appletonianum 1 urbanianum.
Anyone doing this? anyone NOT doing this?


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## Rick (Dec 11, 2011)

I don't know what you mean by 11/2"

But I use plastic berry containers that are usually 6"X4"X2"deep.

Sometimes 8X4. They are slotted around the edge for good ventilation of the berrys, and seemed pretty good at the time.

All 25 or so from the flask go into the "basket" if they are small seedlings, and I may split them into 2 containers for bigger seedlings.

I start all my seedlings indoors in a "Wardian" like box with light/temp and humidity control. There is very little that I do different for any particular species. Encyclia cochleata seedlings get the same treatment pretty much as Paph godefroyae seedlings, except I may water one heavier than the other.

I wouldn't say I've come up with any single perfect media. I'm not using much if any CHC in the mixes for the last couple years. Usually bark based with a goodly amount of chopped sphagnum to hold more water than the bark would tend to by itself. 

Recently I may tweak with more/less sand or more/less aragonite on a species specific basis.

Depending on how crowded the indoor box gets, the compots will end up in the GH after at least a few months (longer if I get too crowded). During that time if individual plants really take off, they can get pulled for individual potting into 2" pots (or 4 inch baskets). Once I get a handful of keepers the rest will eventually get divided up as they get big enough into 2" pots to distribute as I can.


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## Stone (Dec 11, 2011)

They are in one and one half inch pots at the moment with a leaf span around 3 inches and I want to put them together in one large 6''? pot for a year or so.


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## ehanes7612 (Dec 11, 2011)

6 inch pots are great for most things (especially multiflorals)...but with brachys ..you should do smaller pots because they like drying out more...i just put a flask of curtisii spread out in 6inch pot and they seem to love it..same with charlesworthii, barbigerum, victoria reginae, and all my parvis..they could be in there for several years ..depending on how fast they grow (and the mix you use)..i had a compot of 15 roths that grew in CHC compot (6 inch) with the lower half styro peanuts for three years ..they loved it , even when the mix turned to mush (mix stayed aerated enough and provided nutrients from the breakdown)..its a very convenient method


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## Rick (Dec 11, 2011)

Ok 

I think 3 inches may be about the minimal average size where I could be shifting to individual pots. But I sometimes have them go an easy 4 to 5 inch LS before subdivision. 

For my decision basis it has more to do with how crowded and busy I am.

Multiple plants in pots are less effort. Not sure if inter plant competition is good or bad.

From the standpoint of overdosing fertilizer, the more plants per pot the harder it is to OD. So its like having a big single plant crammed in its own little pot if you think about it.

Most of my problems start after moving plants out of compots into their first individual pots.


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## Stone (Dec 11, 2011)

ehanes7612 said:


> 6 inch pots are great for most things (especially multiflorals)...but with brachys ..you should do smaller pots because they like drying out more...i just put a flask of curtisii spread out in 6inch pot and they seem to love it..same with charlesworthii, barbigerum, victoria reginae, and all my parvis..they could be in there for several years ..depending on how fast they grow (and the mix you use)..i had a compot of 15 roths that grew in CHC compot (6 inch) with the lower half styro peanuts for three years ..they loved it , even when the mix turned to mush (mix stayed aerated enough and provided nutrients from the breakdown)..its a very convenient method



I thought they would! So, as long as you can tell them apart you could put niveum gode leucs together etc right?


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## Stone (Dec 11, 2011)

Rick said:


> Ok
> 
> I think 3 inches may be about the minimal average size where I could be shifting to individual pots. But I sometimes have them go an easy 4 to 5 inch LS before subdivision.
> 
> ...



I've got 21 seedlings of sanderianum. might try half togerther and half seperate then see how they compare after a while?


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## Rick (Dec 11, 2011)

Don't know how big your sanderianum seedlings are, but the four I moved into baskets earlier this year have doubled in size. One of my root damaged older plants has also turned around in the basket. The multi's in general really seem to like this potting method.


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## Stone (Dec 11, 2011)

Well I just finished potting up 4 compots 2 with 5 sandies in each and 2 mixed but they still haven't moved yet
How come not many people join in the culture pages? To me, getting there and playing around with different growing methods is half the fun!


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## Rick (Dec 11, 2011)

Stone said:


> To me, getting there and playing around with different growing methods is half the fun!



Could be burned out and tired of it.

If you go through with the search function, potting mixes have been covered ad-nausea over the years.


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## Stone (Dec 11, 2011)

Ive been mucking around with media for as long as I can remember, always something to learn. Now if I could only get hold of suitible mycorrhiza


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## NYEric (Dec 12, 2011)

I think seedlings do better in compots than individual pots. (In U.S.A. its written1-1/2")


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## likespaphs (Dec 12, 2011)

Stone said:


> ...How come not many people join in the culture pages? To me, getting there and playing around with different growing methods is half the fun!



i think people don't feel they're experienced enough to contribute


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## SlipperFan (Dec 12, 2011)

likespaphs said:


> i think people don't feel they're experienced enough to contribute



Or have written about it in many other threads.


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## keithrs (Dec 12, 2011)

Stone said:


> Ive been mucking around with media for as long as I can remember, always something to learn. Now if I could only get hold of suitible mycorrhiza



I'm alway messing around with medias.... 9/10 are a disaster to say the least. As far as mycorrhiza, That stuff is all over the web.... The stuff that has good spore count is expensive. Not sure beneficial bacteria is as subtable as beneficial fungus for most orchids. I want to start messing around with teas but I have my hands full with building this terrarium.


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## keithrs (Dec 12, 2011)

likespaphs said:


> i think people don't feel they're experienced enough to contribute



Bingo.... I have little experience with Paph seedlings or seedling in general... I do know Physan is a horrible thing!

I tend to have more ?'s than experience to share.


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## Rick (Dec 12, 2011)

keithrs said:


> I'm alway messing around with medias.... 9/10 are a disaster to say the least. As far as mycorrhiza, That stuff is all over the web.... The stuff that has good spore count is expensive. Not sure beneficial bacteria is as subtable as beneficial fungus for most orchids. I want to start messing around with teas but I have my hands full with building this terrarium.



I played around with mycorrhiza inoculates probably about 4 years ago. Not enough to consider it a controlled trial by any means. I had a few things do much better ( a compot of "stuck" henryanum seedlings), a few things die, and most not do anything at all. So many variables, and on top of that, 99% of what's available on the market aren't the same genera that primarily infect orchids.

The whole point of mycorrhizal fungi is supposed to liberate nutrients from the nutrient stingy leaf litter anyway, and some of the evidence floating around was that heavy fertilizing killed all the mychorrhizae in the first place.


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## Stone (Dec 13, 2011)

I don't know much about orchid mycorrhiza but I have read that ecto mychorriza which has relationships with trees such as pines is very sensitive to excess nutrients, particularly P and N but strangely is not affected by K.

Given that these plant/fungus relationships are of great benefit to the host, essentially expanding the nutrient gathering capacity of roots many times, Perhaps this explains how an orchid can prosper in what seems to be a nutrient -poor environment. I just looked up some notes and interestingly
in one experiment, a group of inoculated plants fed with 1g controlled release fert per cubic meter (which is not much! ) grew better than non-myco plants fed with 4gms.

I'd like to experiment with myco but availability is poor in this country let alone knowing the right species. Also you would probably need a good lab set up to properly keep an eye on whats going on and I would bet that different species are involved with eg: niveum and lowii or purpuratum and
tigrinum? It would be handy though, to make up a pod and just sprinkle some seed around and wait for the seedlings!

I've got a native dendrobium in a tree fern pot in the g/h and one day noticed some seedlings ( different sp ) growing on its side in the moss so I threw some more on and sure enough a year later 4 or 5 babies. So far that pot has produced about 20 dend. seedlings of 3 species. Thinking about it, if the fungus is still active , I must be feeding more weakly than I imagined.


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## Stone (Dec 13, 2011)

keithrs said:


> I'm alway messing around with medias.... 9/10 are a disaster to say the least. As far as mycorrhiza, That stuff is all over the web.... The stuff that has good spore count is expensive. Not sure beneficial bacteria is as subtable as beneficial fungus for most orchids. I want to start messing around with teas but I have my hands full with building this terrarium.



Having an active colony of beneficial bacteria in intimate contact with roots is very helpfull. They can supress harmful organisms by using them as food.
Old well-matured compost is a good source.


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## keithrs (Dec 13, 2011)

All myco will "lock out" with even medium amounts of fertilizers, organic or synthetic. They don't died. Another thing beneficials do is kill viruses, and bacterias that cause problems like rot, tho I'm not sure how well it will work on orchids.


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## keithrs (Dec 13, 2011)

Stone said:


> Having an active colony of beneficial bacteria in intimate contact with roots is very helpfull. They can supress harmful organisms by using them as food.
> Old well-matured compost is a good source.



The problem with mature is that it can carry harmful bacteria like salmonella. I rather use humus or composted grass. Grass is the best source of mycos.


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## keithrs (Dec 13, 2011)

Endo is probably the best host for orchids.... Tho studies have been shown that endo relies on the ecto for food source. 

Rick, Did you notice any difference with the roots or the hairs on the roots?


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## keithrs (Dec 13, 2011)

Sounds like we need to start a thread on myco..... Where way off for the topic...


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## Stone (Dec 13, 2011)

keithrs said:


> The problem with mature is that it can carry harmful bacteria like salmonella. I rather use humus or composted grass. Grass is the best source of mycos.



I dont mean manure, I mean mature ( 6-12months ) compost made from leaves wood waste etc. Composted grass will not contain any mycorrhiza nor would any compost unless it was re-invaded by the fungus for some reason eg if grass roots were growing in it.


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## Stone (Dec 13, 2011)

keithrs said:


> > Endo is probably the best host for orchids.... Tho studies have been shown that endo relies on the ecto for food source.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes most non-woody plants probably form relationships with Endo- myc. I was just giving an example of the general benefits of having inocculated plants.


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## keithrs (Dec 13, 2011)

Stone said:


> I dont mean manure, I mean mature ( 6-12months ) compost made from leaves wood waste etc. Composted grass will not contain any mycorrhiza nor would any compost unless it was re-invaded by the fungus for some reason eg if grass roots were growing in it.



Both can contain harmful bacterias, especially if you through egg shells in it..... 

When I said grass is the best source, I was implying that as a general statement. Not as grass mulch is the best source. My bad if it came off that way.


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## Stone (Nov 13, 2013)

*Update*





These are leucochilums. The bottom row were the biggest plants in the flask and put straight into small pots. The top row were some of the smallest and put into compots. The compot seedlings were potted up today. They are all the same age (about 6 months). The little ones are now together again..
Conculsion: Use compots!


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## 2Toned (Nov 13, 2013)

These pics provide a pretty compelling argument, Rick. Thanks for the visual. 

I purchased my first flasks back in June and potted all of the seedlings in makeshift compots. The vessel is actually a plastic mesh basket that I lined with a local moss and then filled with a medium I mix myself, comprising:

Fine Perlite
Chopped Moss
Chopped Leaf Litter

The leaf litter comes from the backyard and is mainly Cassuarina cunninghamiana, which abounds in my area. I chose it as the area (and my backyard) supports a myriad native terrestrial orchids, all of which are dependent on myco. I figured that it would provide as good a chance of survival as any other medium I, as a noob, might give them. Here's hoping...


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## ALToronto (Nov 13, 2013)

Do you sterilize the leaves or use them as they are? I'd be concerned about mold and insects, but then sterilization would kill anything beneficial as well.


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## Stone (Nov 14, 2013)

Yes I would be wary of using leaf litter on seedlings out of flask. It may be ok or it may be a disaster if you introduce phytophthora or something.


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## Dido (Nov 14, 2013)

This is very nice and interesting, have the same feeling. 

Did someone uses catapa leaves on seedlings. 
I just tried on some bad plants and they look good till now. 

this leaves are fucking expensive....


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## paphioboy (Nov 14, 2013)

Stone said:


> These are leucochilums. The bottom row were the biggest plants in the flask and put straight into small pots. The top row were some of the smallest and put into compots. The compot seedlings were potted up today. They are all the same age (about 6 months). The little ones are now together again..
> Conculsion: Use compots!



Looking good. Many Thai growers deflask paphs straight into large plastic baskets as compots, using inorganic media (mostly LECA, charcoal).


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## tomkalina (Nov 14, 2013)

Our experience is the same- Potting the largest seedlings out of flask directly into individual pots sets them back substantially compared to those planted out in compots. The little guys like to have their roots close together when they're just starting out.:wink:


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## NYEric (Nov 14, 2013)

NYEric said:


> I think seedlings do better in compots than individual pots.


Who said that!?


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