# Floppy Leaves on Hung Sheng Eagle



## StreetVariety (Feb 22, 2017)

I have a Hung Sheng Eagle paph and the older leaves are floppy and won't point upright to the light source. What is this sign of? Or is this a normal growth behavior for this hybrid?


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## Don I (Feb 22, 2017)

I'm not an expert but I have plants that have older leaves that flop. Especially the ones with narrower long leaves like Paph. gratrixianum. I have no idea what Hung Sheng Eagle is or looks like, but it may be just age.
Don


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## troy (Feb 22, 2017)

Need a picture


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## StreetVariety (Feb 22, 2017)




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## JAB (Feb 22, 2017)

Sweet baby Jesus how did you post a pic that big on this forum!?!?!?!?

Perhaps a bit more light? Overall strap leaf varieties are prone to such 'flopping.'


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## troy (Feb 22, 2017)

It looks like regular senescence, although gigantifolium is a rock dweller, might not like the sphagnum moss, in moss overtime will kill it


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## StreetVariety (Feb 22, 2017)

I recently upgraded the lighting, hopefully it'll stand upright! It's just a topping of moss to keep the bark underneath evenly moist.

Thanks for answering!


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## SlipperKing (Feb 23, 2017)

Probably too much fertilizer and the incorrect light source. 

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## Brabantia (Feb 23, 2017)

Not enough Calcium ? Which fertilisers are you using ?

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## Ozpaph (Feb 23, 2017)

check the roots.


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## StreetVariety (Feb 23, 2017)

I'm fertilizing 1/4 strength K-lite every watering. Is that too much? How often should I water and fertilize for this plant?

I checked the roots and about 1/3 of them were dead so I went ahead and removed them and repotted it in 50/50 perlite and bark mix. There were few new root though, so I'm optimistic that this plant can recover.


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## Brabantia (Feb 23, 2017)

StreetVariety said:


> I'm fertilizing 1/4 strength K-lite every watering. Is that too much? How often should I water and fertilize for this plant?


And which quantity (gr or mgr or tsp) is full strength? Specify please.


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## StreetVariety (Feb 23, 2017)

Brabantia said:


> And which quantity (gr or mgr or tsp) is full strength? Specify please.



1/2 tsp/gall


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## Brabantia (Feb 23, 2017)

StreetVariety said:


> 1/2 tsp/gall



Ok thank you. This quantity make around 22 ppm nitrogen for each watering (if my maths are good). How many time do you sprinkle during one week?


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## StreetVariety (Feb 23, 2017)

Brabantia said:


> Ok thank you. This quantity make around 22 ppm nitrogen for each watering (if my maths are good). How many time do you sprinkle during one week?


Whenever the bark appears to be dry, so twice or thrice a week.


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## Brabantia (Feb 23, 2017)

StreetVariety said:


> Whenever the bark appears to be dry, so twice or thrice a week.


Ok it is not a fertilyser problem. You distribute enough of this one.


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## Ozpaph (Feb 23, 2017)

poor roots = poor nutrition and hydration. Keep the humidity up to prevent dehydration.


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## gonewild (Feb 23, 2017)

Ozpaph said:


> poor roots = poor nutrition and hydration. Keep the humidity up to prevent dehydration.



Also few roots + low nutrient content = poor nutrition.
The plant needs more food.


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## StreetVariety (Feb 23, 2017)

So how much should I feed it?


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## gonewild (Feb 23, 2017)

StreetVariety said:


> So how much should I feed it?



More.

Looking at your moss on the surface there is no sign of algae or any other life form that would grow in a fertile environment. But maybe the moss is freshly added. So I'm only guessing.
I would use the K-lite at full strength and you safely can.
Full strength is not too much. 
After a plant is well established and growing with a strong efficient root system you can get by using less fertilizer. When the plant has a less than complete root system it needs a richer source of nutrients to maintain the stem and foliage.
I would also wet the foliage with the nutrient solution when you water.


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## troy (Feb 23, 2017)

wetting the foliage with good airflow to prevent crown rot, to prevent crown rot, do not leave foliage or especially water in crown overnight, I personally foliar feed 1 time a week in the morning


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## Brabantia (Feb 25, 2017)

gonewild said:


> After a plant is well established and growing with a strong efficient root system you can get by using less fertilizer. When the plant has a less than complete root system it needs a richer source of nutrients to maintain the stem and foliage.
> I would also wet the foliage with the nutrient solution when you water.


Very interesting assertion and I agree with these.
But...How can we increase fertilisation without burning the roots?
Increase the frequency of distribution or increase the concentration of salts in the fertilisers solution distributed ?
At what do you think when you write "a richer source of nutrients"?
Since one year I feed at 40 ppm N one time per week with a 3_1_2 fertilyser and I maintain the substrate always wet. The temperature oscillates between 15 and 25 C.
The growth is very slow and when I repot I note that the roots development is not very important.So What the trick?



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## gonewild (Feb 26, 2017)

Brabantia said:


> Very interesting assertion and I agree with these.
> But...How can we increase fertilisation without burning the roots?



By staying withing know limits and applying the fertilizer with enough water.
Assuming the dissolved salts in the water are all beneficial nutrients roots wont be damaged by water with 500ppm total. You can safely apply balanced fertilizers at 100ppm nitrogen levels assuming your substrate has a low salt hold capacity. By that I mean as example bark or stone as opposed to moss. (I refer to orchids in general and not salt sensitive plants)



> Increase the frequency of distribution or increase the concentration of salts in the fertilisers solution distributed ?



Both. Apply fertilizer at a correct level every time you water. If you water correctly and have a proper substrate salts never build up.



> At what do you think when you write "a richer source of nutrients"?



Put more nutrients in the water. I mean create an environment with more nutrients available at all times.



> Since one year I feed at 40 ppm N one time per week with a 3_1_2 fertilyser and I maintain the substrate always wet. The temperature oscillates between 15 and 25 C.
> The growth is very slow and when I repot I note that the roots development is not very important.So What the trick?



How many times do you water between each fertilizer application? I ask so you think about is the substrate wet with nutrients all the days or is it mostly wet with plain water.

In my experience I see most of the fertilizer benefit comes mostly at the time the fertilizer is applied, the moment the liquid nutrient solution soaks the roots. With that in mind what benefit does having bark soaked with nutrients have if there is no root touching it? When you water with plain non nutrient water you are sending your plants to work without lunch.

In my opinion 40ppm nitrogen once per week is not enough unless you are lucky enough to have a substrate that has a life of microbes that add to the nutrient supply. I'm sure at least one person will disagree with this.


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## Brabantia (Feb 27, 2017)

Thank you for your comments Lance.
The reason why I ask all this questions is because I can grow and flower Cattleya and Laelia with 50 ppm N per week (3_1_2). Paphiopedilum are more difficult.
It seems to me that the lower roots density of the Paphiopedilum is the reason. The greater the roots area is more the plant can catch the nutrients efficiently. 
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## gonewild (Feb 27, 2017)

Brabantia said:


> Thank you for your comments Lance.
> The reason why I ask all this questions is because I can grow and flower Cattleya and Laelia with 50 ppm N per week (3_1_2). Paphiopedilum are more difficult.
> It seems to me that the lower roots density of the Paphiopedilum is the reason. The greater the roots area is more the plant can catch the nutrients efficiently.



Yes fewer roots play a big role as I was trying to point out. The ratio of root density to foliage density in an individual plant can have an effect on the amount of nutrients sent to each growing leaf.
And consider...
Just because Cattleyas and Paphiopedilums are both orchids does not mean they share the same nutrient requirements. They are two different life forms. Two obvious differences Cattleyas grow in spurts and Paphs grow constantly. Cattleyas have storage capacity and Paphs don't. All orchids are not created equal nor can they be made equal by proclamation. 

People accept that different orchid species require different light and temperature requirements yet they want to fertilize them all the same.
Why? 

And even plants of the same species have differing requirements as illustrated by your realization that root mass makes a difference in the optimum strength of the available nutrient supply.

Time for a second cup of coffee now... I need one but not everyone does. :drool:


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