# K-Lite Trial Observations



## Ray (Jan 31, 2012)

Just sent this to Marni, so thought I'd share it here too.


I'm about a month in now, and am not seeing any negatives, but am hesitant to claim benefits - although it DOES look like there may be some growth spurts where there was none previously.

One thing I have noted - I have had two Cymbidium Nut plants - both supposed to be 'H&R' - one has always bloomed a nice red, the other more of an olive green with red undertones. Both have just opened their first blossoms this winter, and the red one is stronger red, and the other one is red with olive undertones.

I've been keeping track of temperatures, and the greenhouse has been consistently 62°-63° at night, climbing in the sunshine, so I cannot claim they developed cooler, which would be my first thought. Who knows? Maybe we're onto something.


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## gonewild (Jan 31, 2012)

Ray said:


> I'm about a month in now, and am not seeing any negatives, but am hesitant to claim benefits - although it DOES look like there may be some growth spurts where there was none previously.



OK you are seeing some new growths spurts where there were none previously.
As an observation do these new growths surprise you for some reason? Are they something that you would not have expected before when using different fertilizer?


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## Ray (Jan 31, 2012)

They are plants that have been more-or-less dormant since late fall. It may be totally unrelated.

Incidentally, if anyone is interested in trying it out, I only have four, 2 lb jars left, and won't be reordering it for a while. Bill Argo was nice enough to have two, small-volume lots produced for me, but I'm sure that's a hassle, so I will be waiting until I see more interest before I reorder in larger volumes.


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## Rick (Jan 31, 2012)

gonewild said:


> OK you are seeing some new growths spurts where there were none previously.
> As an observation do these new growths surprise you for some reason? Are they something that you would not have expected before when using different fertilizer?




Given some of the apprehesion concerning deficiencies, imbalances, and starvation, I don't think it would hurt to observe normal growth either (as early as it is in the trial for some people).


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## gonewild (Jan 31, 2012)

Rick said:


> Given some of the apprehesion concerning deficiencies, imbalances, and starvation, I don't think it would hurt to observe normal growth either (as early as it is in the trial for some people).



Yeah, That is what I was getting at. Is what Ray saw normal in his opinion or more than expected. Like maybe those plants have been slow to put on growth and now he sees more? Or in "in his opinion" is the new growth something that he probably would have seen with his old formula.


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## Rick (Jan 31, 2012)

gonewild said:


> Yeah, That is what I was getting at. Is what Ray saw normal in his opinion or more than expected. Like maybe those plants have been slow to put on growth and now he sees more? Or in "in his opinion" is the new growth something that he probably would have seen with his old formula.



I understand. How things are stated can make a big difference.

For instance if the plants was considered "stalled" or "stunted" then new growth of any kind seems like an improvement. If it's the normal time for seeing new growth starts we're just at "status-quot".

At status-quot we are seeing lack of negative effects. With unexpected new growth we are seeing a positive effect.


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## gonewild (Jan 31, 2012)

Rick said:


> I understand. How things are stated can make a big difference.
> 
> For instance if the plants was considered "stalled" or "stunted" then new growth of any kind seems like an improvement. If it's the normal time for seeing new growth starts we're just at "status-quot".
> 
> At status-quot we are seeing lack of negative effects. With unexpected new growth we are seeing a positive effect.



Yes that is what I meant. :clap:


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## Ray (Feb 1, 2012)

Let me add this then: All of my plants have been getting the MSU RO formula at 125 ppm N for years. About 6 months ago I dropped it to about 75 ppm N, and everything seemed to carry on fine, even getting some new exposed roots on some vandaceous plants that had formerly not been growing them for a while.

The plants then went about 6 weeks with plain water only, due to a dosing pump failure.

Nothing "stalled" in that time period, but a few plants that had not been growing previously - a Phal. gigantea hybrid, B. nodosa, and a propetalum all started to grow within 2 weeks of me starting the K-Lite application. Additionally - I shared this with Rick, but forgot - a Max variabilis that formerly was very shy with its flowering, has more than twice the number of blossoms than it has ever had, and it was diminished in size by division last year.

Are any of these as a result of K-Lite? I don't know for sure. I think it's likely we'll be working in the "nothing negative to report" mode for a while, and will only see improvements in the long term, if at all.


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## NYEric (Feb 1, 2012)

Ray said:


> Incidentally, if anyone is interested in trying it out, I only have four, 2 lb jars left,



2 Pounds? I have to look at my other containers to compare because that might be a bit much for my use, thanks.


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## gonewild (Feb 1, 2012)

Ray said:


> Let me add this then: All of my plants have been getting the MSU RO formula at 125 ppm N for years. About 6 months ago I dropped it to about 75 ppm N, and everything seemed to carry on fine, even getting some new exposed roots on some vandaceous plants that had formerly not been growing them for a while.
> 
> The plants then went about 6 weeks with plain water only, due to a dosing pump failure.
> 
> ...



When you add Ricks previous observations (claims  ) to yours it definately leans towards positive results. It is not always necessary to wait a long time to make decisions about plant growth. Plants respond very quickly to favorable conditions. And after all we are all impatient and want immediate gratification. :drool:


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## terryros (Feb 1, 2012)

I am one of the last few to purchase the two pounds. I may be a little unique in the trial in that I grow exclusively indoors, under LED lights, and using all sphagnum moss. I have always been an Orchids Limited Green Jungle fertilizer user at 100 ppm N in RO water. I also fairly carefully monitor the effluent of random pots after watering for EC and pH. I have a hard time saying no to an experiment so I am going to try and divide my collection between the K - lyte product and Green Jungle, at equivalent ppm N and compare the groups. My collection is not large at about 120 plants divided between Catts, Phrags, Paphs, and Phals (and soon a couple of Neofinetias) so I won't have the strength of numbers behind my results but I think I might be able to detect something.


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## Stone (Feb 1, 2012)

gonewild said:


> When you add Ricks previous observations (claims  ) to yours it definately leans towards positive results. It is not always necessary to wait a long time to make decisions about plant growth. Plants respond very quickly to favorable conditions. And after all we are all impatient and want immediate gratification. :drool:



Are you still feeding in winter Lance. Or is it always warm there?


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## Rick (Feb 1, 2012)

I was playing with my data logger, and my average temp (average of day highs and night lows) for January was only about 64F (not getting below 58, but rarely over 70). Compared to summer when the monthly average hovers around 80 F. Day length is short and peak light levels also less than 1/2 of summer highs.

With all the lack of heat and light, the majority of my stuff is showing some type of growth. Some things are very busy. The Bulbos are very active right now. So I'm feeding every weekend that I'm home and its sunny (albeit at only 38-40 ppm N).


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## gonewild (Feb 1, 2012)

Stone said:


> Are you still feeding in winter Lance. Or is it always warm there?



I feed year round. We don't really have a "winter" here on the coast. It's pretty easy to maintain growing conditions year round. Unless your plants are forced into a state of dormancy by low temperature or light there is no reason to withhold nutrients. 

But actually I am down to only a few plants now getting ready to go back to Peru for an extended time. So my growing conditions and comments are "virtual" at the moment. But it was almost like summer today and nature is all in growth now here.


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## keithrs (Feb 2, 2012)

I also feed year round but I cut back alot... about 1/2. I grow outside, So my plants tend to grow slower in the winter. Also the arc of the sun tends to shade my growing area @ about 11 am in the winter.


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## Ray (Feb 2, 2012)

This time of year, I typically run a nighttime minimum of around 62-64° in the greenhouse, with not much increase on gray days, but up to the mid-to-upper 70's on sunny days, although 1/18 had a spike to 87°.

I keep feeding year round at the same level, but the schedule is based primarily upon the sky clarity (i.e., more sun), unless it's been gray for too long to wait.


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## gonewild (Feb 2, 2012)

I would say a good rule of thumb is when you have a 10 degree increase in daytime temperature over nighttime you should consider the plants to be in a growth situation. When the temperatures are lower it is a good idea to lower the nitrogen availability. Lowering the nitrogen discourages the plant from pushing fast growth during a short period of warm temperatures. You don't want tender growth to get started and then fail when the temperature drops down again. But lowering the nitrogen availability does not mean eliminating it completely.


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## Rick (Feb 2, 2012)

Ray said:


> This time of year, I typically run a nighttime minimum of around 62-64° in the greenhouse, with not much increase on gray days, but up to the mid-to-upper 70's on sunny days, although 1/18 had a spike to 87°.
> 
> I keep feeding year round at the same level, but the schedule is based primarily upon the sky clarity (i.e., more sun), unless it's been gray for too long to wait.




I run just a tadd cooler for the nightime min (58-60), but otherwise see the same winter conditions and feeding strategy.


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## SlipperKing (Feb 2, 2012)

I typically don't change my feeding either but in the winter there is less application. I'm not sure that has any effect on the available nutrients seeing how the plants are wet with the same concentration of fertilzer as when watering. Here again, winter is pretty much over and by mid-March people are hitting the beach! 
I do try to let the GH get down to the low 50's when there is a winter but this last season we got skipped. Another interesting note, my plants never seem to stop growing.


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## Stone (Feb 2, 2012)

I think your water temps are very important if your feeding in winter too.


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## abax (Feb 3, 2012)

I received my K-Lite and will begin feeding on Sunday 2/6
on a weekly basis as always. After reading the jar, I'm
going to use a bit less than 1 tsp. per gallon in my Spot Shot. How does that compare with the amount per gallon
that others are using?


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## Rick (Feb 3, 2012)

abax said:


> I received my K-Lite and will begin feeding on Sunday 2/6
> on a weekly basis as always. After reading the jar, I'm
> going to use a bit less than 1 tsp. per gallon in my Spot Shot. How does that compare with the amount per gallon
> that others are using?



Since I'm feeding at 1/4 tsp per gal (37.5 mg/L N) then you would be feeding at 4X my present rate (unless your spot shot dilutes at >1:1).

During summer I could see myself going to 1/2 tsp/gal. But I don't think (at this time) that I would need to run up to 150 mg/L N (at a full tsp).


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## Ray (Feb 3, 2012)

I targeted 75 ppm N, but just replaced my EC meter and am measuring 85 ppm, which is fine for me. That's 2.45 g/gal.

The two batches we've gotten in used different sources of mag nitrate, giving different textures and packing, so will have different bulk densities; I suggest using weight, rather than volume, to measure out your additions.

By far the safest idea is to make a concentrate of a large amount, then dilute that for use.


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## keithrs (Feb 3, 2012)

That's what I did... Made 4:1, distilled water:k-lite concentrate. I have been using 1.5 tbs per gal. which is about 50 ppms N. Speaking of which..... I need to fertilize today.


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## Rick (Feb 3, 2012)

Ray said:


> I targeted 75 ppm N, but just replaced my EC meter and am measuring 85 ppm, which is fine for me. That's 2.45 g/gal.
> 
> The two batches we've gotten in used different sources of mag nitrate, giving different textures and packing, so will have different bulk densities; I suggest using weight, rather than volume, to measure out your additions.
> 
> By far the safest idea is to make a concentrate of a large amount, then dilute that for use.



I've also been making it up at 4X concentrate of what I want so that I can get a larger (and more homogenous (I hope)) scoop out of the bottle. But thats still only a full tsp. I'd really be wasting if I go much more.

Ray do you have a notion of the shelf life of a hydrated concentrate? I wouldn't feel so bad about making up even larger quanties of concentrate if I thought it would be stable in the fridge for a couple of weeks.


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## Roth (Feb 3, 2012)

Rick said:


> I've also been making it up at 4X concentrate of what I want so that I can get a larger (and more homogenous (I hope)) scoop out of the bottle. But thats still only a full tsp. I'd really be wasting if I go much more.
> 
> Ray do you have a notion of the shelf life of a hydrated concentrate? I wouldn't feel so bad about making up even larger quanties of concentrate if I thought it would be stable in the fridge for a couple of weeks.



A concentrate will not be stable more than a few hours I think...

If you have time, use this:

http://www2.lwr.kth.se/English/OurSoftware/vminteq/

It's free and really helpful.


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## keithrs (Feb 3, 2012)

I have had my in a concentrate for about a month and no problems yet.... I have Peters RO in a dilution of 3:1 for over 6 months and no problems.


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## Rick (Feb 3, 2012)

keithrs said:


> I have had my in a concentrate for about a month and no problems yet.... I have Peters RO in a dilution of 3:1 for over 6 months and no problems.



I wouldn't expect something like toxicity as a problem rather than degradation/volitalization (of nitrogen compounds) and oxidizing of the trace metals into worthless insoluble products.

So you may be feeding at much less than intended. Do you check nitrogen concentrations?


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## Ray (Feb 3, 2012)

These are very stable inorganic and ionic chemicals. Unless there are precipitates, they are quite unlikely to change over the times within our parameters.

Put some salt into water - unless you add something else, or allow the water to evaporate, it will be stable for a very long time.


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## keithrs (Feb 3, 2012)

Rick said:


> I wouldn't expect something like toxicity as a problem rather than degradation/volitalization (of nitrogen compounds) and oxidizing of the trace metals into worthless insoluble products.
> 
> So you may be feeding at much less than intended. Do you check nitrogen concentrations?



No... Thats farther than I need to go....At this point.


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## abax (Feb 4, 2012)

My Spot Shot isn't a proportioner-type. It holds 7 gals. of
solution and is applied as mixed in the tank. The fertilizer is added to the tank and used immediately. If anyone thinks 3/4 tsp. per gallon is too much, please tell me.


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## Roth (Feb 4, 2012)

Ray said:


> These are very stable inorganic and ionic chemicals. Unless there are precipitates, they are quite unlikely to change over the times within our parameters.
> 
> Put some salt into water - unless you add something else, or allow the water to evaporate, it will be stable for a very long time.



That's true, but if you put one salt like potassium phosphate or sodium chloride. With several salts, it starts to react, and you get a precipitate. If you run the K-Lite style in Visual Minteqa, you find out precipitates in concentrate solutions, salts dissociate in ions, that can recombine and give insoluble salts (precipitate). The most vicious is when the precipitate are colloidal styles, they are not the big snowflakes, but molecules or very small group of molecules, invisible to the naked eye. Though the solution can look 'clear', those ions cannot be accessed by the plants. It happens very frequently with borax and calcium nitrate in a A + B tank system as one of many examples.


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## Ray (Feb 4, 2012)

Angela - you're running in the 110-115 ppm N range. Probably not too high (I used 125 with MSU for years), but many of us are running a bit lower these days.

Roth - you're absolutely right about potential "recombinant precipitation", and I have observed it myself (and that's why I now keep a more dilute stock tank), but it seems to me that in most fertilizer formulations, that does not happen to a degree that significantly affects the nutrient availability unless you store too strong of a solution for too long.


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## Rick (Feb 4, 2012)

I've done some work with fertilizer concentrations of nitrate in my tox lab, and saw that at high concentrations of nitrate, a small percentage will spontaneously degrade to nitrite. Also given a small amount of the appropriate bacteria in the sample and the ammonia could be switched to nitrate in short notice (aerobic conditions) or the nitrate could be gassed off as nitrogen gas (anoxic conditions).

I would suspect under refrigeration bacterial issues could be very slow. About the same as it takes a 1/2 gal of milk to go bad maybe.

As per the metals (in trace), the edta should help keep them stable, but under aerobic conditions it wouldn't take much to see them oxidized to useless "rust" type substances over time. But I couldn't tell if we are talking days, weeks, or months. I've seen several studies on the stability of metals in EDTA and it varies dramatically per metal too.


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## cnycharles (Feb 4, 2012)

Rick said:


> As per the metals (in trace), the edta should help keep them stable, but under aerobic conditions it wouldn't take much to see them oxidized to useless "rust" type substances over time. But I couldn't tell if we are talking days, weeks, or months. I've seen several studies on the stability of metals in EDTA and it varies dramatically per metal too.



the solution pH makes a difference as well; if i'm remembering right, we had two forms of iron (or iron with two different chelating agents) and which you would use depended on the pH of the fertilizer solution it was added to


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## abax (Feb 5, 2012)

Thank you again, Ray. I'll cut it back to 1/4 tsp. per gallon
at least until we see some spring weather.


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## Rick (Feb 5, 2012)

cnycharles said:


> the solution pH makes a difference as well; if i'm remembering right, we had two forms of iron (or iron with two different chelating agents) and which you would use depended on the pH of the fertilizer solution it was added to



pH stability may be more telling than anything else. Most of the metals tend to stay soluble at the lower pH levels we are typically shooting for.

So anyone with access to a good pH meter can put together a concentrate and log the pH over time and get a very rough idea of stability.


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## SlipperKing (Feb 7, 2012)

Back to the thread at hand folk! I've picked up on a change in the roth plants only so far. Much lighter green then before tittering on yellow. I've been watering for a month at least maybe a week more with K-lite only at 75ppm in my rain water. I may have to add some Epson's back into the water?


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## Ray (Feb 7, 2012)

There should be plenty om Mg in the fertilizer. So far, I have not seen anything like that on any plants.


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## terryros (Feb 7, 2012)

Maybe I am one of the few in the trial growing in pure New Zealand sphagnum moss? I think I do well with this because with my modest sized collection I hand water each plant when it is the right "dryness". I also monitor the effluent from periodic pots (about 50 ml RO over the top as described by Bill Argo and Y-T Wang and others) to keep the EC and pH under control. To keep the pH from being too low (less than 5.0) I have been gently top dressing pots, as needed, with palletized dolomitic lime, which is a combination of Ca and Mg salts to provide buffer. My theoretic question is whether anyone thinks the additional Ca and Mg that comes from this could be an issue with the K-Lite fertilizer? I am afraid I couldn't help myself and am also going to be adding Ray's Kelpac in my regimen, so I now have two variables in the experiment.


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## keithrs (Feb 7, 2012)

I don't think the "extra" Ca and Mg is a problem for most species. The only ones I fill that *may* not like it is pleurothallid. 

I do have a Masd. floribunda that has started to yellow the tips on older grow but it also has new growth and a seed pod. I grow it in straight moss in a basket. I'm not saying k-lite is the cause.... yet, as it just may be shedding old growth.

Just to add....I also have the purple form floribunda and it doesn't show the same symptoms. I grow that in fine bark, pumice mix in a clay pot. My Restrepia muscifera that is yellowing in the same fashion.
The leave in the middle was dryed out before the K-lite trial....


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## Rick (Feb 7, 2012)

SlipperKing said:


> Back to the thread at hand folk! I've picked up on a change in the roth plants only so far. Much lighter green then before tittering on yellow. I've been watering for a month at least maybe a week more with K-lite only at 75ppm in my rain water. I may have to add some Epson's back into the water?



I'm still getting good quality green on my Roths. Not super dark green, but light grass green. Also new roots and overall leaf growth rate is way up.

Mine are in moss baskets and they periodiacally recieve a very light top dressing of "Cichlid sand" which is primarily aragonite sand (calcite). This is primarily for pH control which could be just as much an issue with your roths as opposed to K deficiency. 

I'm feeding only once a week, but in between I water on sunny days with my diluted well water with a smidge of Mag sulfate added. So the between fert waterings always have a bit of Ca/Mg available.

I wouldn't add any more Mg to your feed, but you may consider maintaining a weak dose of Ca/Mg in your generall irrigation water instead of pure rain water.


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## Rick (Feb 7, 2012)

terryros said:


> Maybe I am one of the few in the trial growing in pure New Zealand sphagnum moss? I think I do well with this because with my modest sized collection I hand water each plant when it is the right "dryness". I also monitor the effluent from periodic pots (about 50 ml RO over the top as described by Bill Argo and Y-T Wang and others) to keep the EC and pH under control. To keep the pH from being too low (less than 5.0) I have been gently top dressing pots, as needed, with palletized dolomitic lime, which is a combination of Ca and Mg salts to provide buffer. My theoretic question is whether anyone thinks the additional Ca and Mg that comes from this could be an issue with the K-Lite fertilizer? I am afraid I couldn't help myself and am also going to be adding Ray's Kelpac in my regimen, so I now have two variables in the experiment.



I was using a kelp extract before reducing K and am still using it. I also have aragonite sand in my moss baskets as an ammendment.

Unless you grow hydroponically there are plenty of variables in this test already


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## Ray (Feb 7, 2012)

More K-Lite is now available - 2# jars and 25# bags. Probably the last I'll get for a while.


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## Stone (Feb 7, 2012)

SlipperKing said:


> Back to the thread at hand folk! I've picked up on a change in the roth plants only so far. Much lighter green then before tittering on yellow. I've been watering for a month at least maybe a week more with K-lite only at 75ppm in my rain water. I may have to add some Epson's back into the water?



I kind of doubt that you would see a deficiency after 6 weeks of low K especially with slow growers. Old leaf deficienies usually show up as the plant is actively growing and thereby relocating N, K, and Mg especially, from old to new. Is the _whole_ plant yellowing or the new or old leaves? Have you increased light intensity?


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## Stone (Feb 7, 2012)

keithrs said:


> I don't think the "extra" Ca and Mg is a problem for most species. The only ones I fill that *may* not like it is pleurothallid.
> 
> I do have a Masd. floribunda that has started to yellow the tips on older grow but it also has new growth and a seed pod. I grow it in straight moss in a basket. I'm not saying k-lite is the cause.... yet, as it just may be shedding old growth.
> 
> ...



Just my 2 cents worth Kieth but the first masd. in moss looks like a case of over-watering/ feeding? If you have the same sp. in bark/perlite doing well and you're feeding both at the same rate then maybe the mossplant is getting overloaded?

The next 2 pics. (again just a guess!!) looks like _old_N and/or K and/or Mg deficiencies but this may be caused by lack of good roots, obviously NOT lack of application. I'd be inclined to remove plant, blast the roots with fresh water and remount/pot and not feed anything until the're under way.

Mike


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## Rick (Feb 7, 2012)

Keithrs

I also have a handfull of Pleuros of different types.

These are also much more sensitive to low humidty and higher temps than most of my other orchids.

I have been seeing some improvement in my handful of pleuro types too, but I had to repot them (or mount them) to see the results, and pretty much had to write off the old growth and watch the new growth come in.

That's pretty similar to what Mike is suggesting.

Actually the results I'm getting now are encouraging me to try a few Draculas again.

I would love to see someone with Telepogons try this stuff out.


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## Ray (Feb 7, 2012)

FWIW, I have an ascocenda and vandofinetia that just had a couple of lower leaves each turn yellow almost overnight - but at the same time, they started sprouting new root growth like mad.


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## keithrs (Feb 7, 2012)

Rick said:


> Keithrs
> 
> I also have a handfull of Pleuros of different types.
> 
> ...



Rick,
I'm not equivocating the yellowing of the leaves to solely to K-lite as other factors like humidity have played a role(eg. drying of the leaves). But they turned yellow fairly fast. I have also reduced the amount of fertilizer and the frequency that I apply. All of the plants shown are fairly new(bought within the last 6 months) and are going into a terrarium soon. They surely didn't get the best care.


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## keithrs (Feb 7, 2012)

Stone said:


> Just my 2 cents worth Kieth but the first masd. in moss looks like a case of over-watering/ feeding? If you have the same sp. in bark/perlite doing well and you're feeding both at the same rate then maybe the mossplant is getting overloaded?



The funny thing is that the one in bark had very little root mass when I took it off the mount and potted it.... the yellowing started after I reduced the feed amount. It many be getting to dry in-between waterings? 




> The next 2 pics. (again just a guess!!) looks like _old_N and/or K and/or Mg deficiencies but this may be caused by lack of good roots, obviously NOT lack of application. I'd be inclined to remove plant, blast the roots with fresh water and remount/pot and not feed anything until the're under way.
> 
> Mike



On the Restrepia, You can see that I removed it from the mount to check the root mass. The roots aren't the best but not the worst..... But I think your right on the deficiencies being old.... There is a clear difference in new vs. old growth. 

I will be removing them from there mounts soon enough.


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## abax (Feb 8, 2012)

I began the K-Lite Monday morning and am going to keep
to the parameters of the test using only K-Lite once a week
at 1/2 tsp. per gallon. I'm especially interested in five Paphs. that haven't bloomed for me. Two are multigrowth plants that appear to have never bloomed.
Three are one growth complex Paphs. The Conestoga and Concolor have several new growths and I'm very interested in the development of these new growths.


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## Roth (Feb 8, 2012)

I have seen plants similar to Keithrs a few times, and it happened to me when I tried the MSU fertilizer ( calcium nitrate included). Usually, a few days after they look like that, they will defoliate. It is a nutrient deficiency induced by the high calcium content, in some situations.

If he uses 10-52-10 PlantProd, the plants will be dark green quickly.

For roths, the normal wild color is blackish green leaves for the lowland types, and dark frank shiny green for the highland types. I always worry when the leaves are lighter green, because it is not due to the light or whatever,but a deficiency... Even some world famous growers got yellowish roth, and this is a nutrition problem definitely. it is exacerbated and spreads very quickly by the application of calcium nitrate.


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## Rick (Feb 8, 2012)

keithrs said:


> Rick,
> I'm not equivocating the yellowing of the leaves to solely to K-lite .



I didn't take it this way, just offering more options.


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## Rick (Feb 8, 2012)

SlipperKing said:


> Back to the thread at hand folk! I've picked up on a change in the roth plants only so far. Much lighter green then before tittering on yellow. I've been watering for a month at least maybe a week more with K-lite only at 75ppm in my rain water. I may have to add some Epson's back into the water?




Rick

When was the last time you repotted these plants? I remember when you were shifting a lot of stuff to orchiata, so have these been shifted over too?

Interestingly the leaf tissue/leaf litter data for serpentine based forests (such as where roths come from) does not look different than over karst limestone based forests. Even though the serpentine geology/ecology has much more Mg available than Ca in these areas.

So it may be worth cutting back on N and going back to rebalancing Ca/Mg in your irrigation water.


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## keithrs (Feb 8, 2012)

Roth said:


> I have seen plants similar to Keithrs a few times, and it happened to me when I tried the MSU fertilizer ( calcium nitrate included). Usually, a few days after they look like that, they will defoliate. It is a nutrient deficiency induced by the high calcium content, in some situations.
> 
> If he uses 10-52-10 PlantProd, the plants will be dark green quickly.



I had been using a version of MSU for about 3 month before this trial.... before I was using Growmore 20-10-20. I have a version of 4-12-4 in liquid form... will that work? Its 10-30-10 cut 2.5 X.


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## Stone (Feb 8, 2012)

Roth said:


> . QUOTE]It is a nutrient deficiency induced by the high calcium content, in some situations.



I think I saw this problem with my stuff when I was using Cal.nitrate almost excusively. I suspected that excess Ca was giving me a Mg. deficiency as my fert. had Mg. at about 1/10th of Ca. After cutting the nitrate by 1/2, doubleing Mg and introducing Ammonium sulphate, the greening improved dramaticlly.
I just received 2 roth sibs. and a gardineri which I presumed were all grown and fed together? The gard. was a nice darkish green but the roths were extremely yellow but otherwise seem healthy. They are staring to green up after 2 sprays with very dilute urea and Mg.



> If he uses 10-52-10 PlantProd, the plants will be dark green quickly.



This looks like outrageously high P!?


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## Rick (Feb 8, 2012)

Orchiata bark (which I know Rick uses) is enfused with a dolomite (lime) solution.

So lots of Ca/Mg available in fresh bark, but also potential for some residual higher than normal alkalinity levels (as would be observed by a higher than normal pH).

That would encourage the need for a higher amonia content relative to nitrate if that were the case. But the mix would wash out fast enough without doing much of anything different in the short term too. The new fert has a low but, significant residual of ammonia in it too. 

If the mix is old and sour then nothing goes into the plant well (Ca, Mg, N, K).

So I'm interested in seeing the age/status of his mix.


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## gonewild (Feb 8, 2012)

This is starting to sound like an episode of "Doctor House"!
:clap:


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## Rick (Feb 8, 2012)

And yet for a more complex theory:

Now that we unload the root zone from higher levels of salts/nutrients do we get to see a rebuilding and shift of the bacteria/fungi in the potting matrix? Subsequently an adaptation lag to see what the plant actually ends up getting nutrient wise?


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## SlipperKing (Feb 8, 2012)

I must apologizes If I got anyone overly excited. I re-read my earlier post and I may have stretch the wording (yellow) a bit much. I have a handful of roths all from different breeding and all of different sizes as well. Maybe 3 or 4 look lighter green then before then the rest. Especially at *night* in the greenhouse with the fluorescent lights on. That's a key point because when checking the plants during the daylight hours they are a lighter green then the surrounding plants not yellow, at least not yet and not all of them. 
The one that really caught my eye was the Dou Fong X Green Valley plant and that lighter color maybe due to its breeding background. I know a lot of folks have bought this cross in the past. Does anyone else, maybe not using the K-lite Fert see light green plants also?
As for re-potting, I've finish that task starting late Dec to present. I do use a lot of stone/ agraflor(?) particles in my Orchiata mix. I doubt it has any major effect. One other interesting note for Rick. The oldest roth I have is still in the same mix/ basket since Jan 2010 and no color change on it= dark green.


----------



## Rick (Feb 8, 2012)

SlipperKing said:


> I must apologizes If I got anyone overly excited. I re-read my earlier post and I may have stretch the wording (yellow) a bit much.



HaHa Rick, it sure started the speculation!!

Do you have access/tools to conduct a few pH or alkalinity checks?

The random checks I conducted on stuff in the baskets generally indicated pH values in the typical pH sweet spot, and drainage alkalinity values <20 mg/L as CaCO3.

But it would be interesting to see what fresh Orchiata mix is like since the K-lite mix is geared towards low alkalinity users.


----------



## SlipperKing (Feb 8, 2012)

I have no tools like that and since the dept shut down my side of the lab, I don't even have a pH meter anymore


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## Rick (Feb 9, 2012)

Bummer

Maybe you can set up an alkalinity testing station/service for your local society.

It's a simple/cheap titration so all you need is a graduated burret, weak sulfuric acid (of known normality) and some bromecrsol green indicator packets (from HACH).


$16 per pack of 100 pillows (HACH Cat.#943-99)


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## Stone (Feb 10, 2012)

For the K-liters, I was reading through one of my gardening books and came across this: Quote- Potassium deficiency leads to the accumulations of sugars and nitrate in plant tissues and it is these that provide much of the food for attacking organisms-Unquote. So maybe keep a look out for infections?

Rick, I've been playing around with fermented organic fertilizers, and would like to be able to test for nitrate and ammonium levels in a simple and cheap? way. What kind of equipment do I need to get?

Mike


----------



## keithrs (Feb 10, 2012)

Stone, 
Rick and others report that infection have gone down since they started the k lite regimen. 

I have been thinking about using fertilizer teas on top of my beneficial brews. I make fertilizer teas for my gardens and I think I may pull a few plants and see how they do.


----------



## SlipperKing (Feb 10, 2012)

Keith,
Explain your teas please


----------



## Stone (Feb 10, 2012)

As I've metioned a few times I grow lots of other plants besides orchids and for the last few years I have been making slow release fertilizer cakes based on 70-30 soyabean meal and blood/bone.

The results in plant health and appearence outstrips any other ferts. that I've tried. this may have something to do with the slow release nature (4-6 weeks) supplying a steady trickle of nutrients. but plants look greener and glossier than with osmocote. (Clivias, which grow in leafmold in Sth. African rainforest very similar to many paphs, really do well with it) Or it might be that it contains other compounds not found in maufactured fertilizers?

Japanese growers use it on everything including paphs but it's definately not for city dwellers--while the cakes are fermenting you can't go anywhere near them--especially in summer--very funky:evil:
What I woud like to try is to use it in liquid form. and how do they deodorize liquid organics??


----------



## Rick (Feb 10, 2012)

Stone said:


> For the K-liters, I was reading through one of my gardening books and came across this: Quote- Potassium deficiency leads to the accumulations of sugars and nitrate in plant tissues and it is these that provide much of the food for attacking organisms-Unquote. So maybe keep a look out for infections?
> 
> Rick, I've been playing around with fermented organic fertilizers, and would like to be able to test for nitrate and ammonium levels in a simple and cheap? way. What kind of equipment do I need to get?
> 
> Mike



I think you'll need to hit up on an aquarium store for this Mike. The equipment we use in our lab for these tests is pretty expensive. The nesslers test we run (for ammonia) uses some pretty nasty reagents. I think the cadmium reduction method we use for nitrate is not as toxic/noxious, and the reagent pillows are cheap, but the spectrophotometer to read the results is expensive. I think there is a salasilic acid test for ammonia which is safe to use, and may be usable with a handheld reader available from fish stores. Unfortunately the accuracy is not as good with a hand reader.

Given that K lite still has 1% K it's going to be real tough to generate a K deficiency. As you 've noted with several of your own (very awesome) plants can skip fertilizing for months (or years?) on end, and they don't become K deficient.

However, I also have a study from the agri/food crop areana that when K exceeds Ca in the leaf tissues of even K loving crops like beans and potatoes, they become sensitive to some of our favorite diseases (Botrytus and Erwinia). As Keiters, myself and a few others have noted, the incidence and virulence of disease in our plants has declined since reducing K.


----------



## Stone (Feb 10, 2012)

Rick said:


> I think you'll need to hit up on an aquarium store for this Mike. The equipment we use in our lab for these tests is pretty expensive. The nesslers test we run (for ammonia) uses some pretty nasty reagents. I think the cadmium reduction method we use for nitrate is not as toxic/noxious, and the reagent pillows are cheap, but the spectrophotometer to read the results is expensive. I think there is a salasilic acid test for ammonia which is safe to use, and may be usable with a handheld reader available from fish stores. Unfortunately the accuracy is not as good with a hand reader.
> 
> Given that K lite still has 1% K it's going to be real tough to generate a K deficiency. As you 've noted with several of your own (very awesome) plants can skip fertilizing for months (or years?) on end, and they don't become K deficient.
> 
> However, I also have a study from the agri/food crop areana that when K exceeds Ca in the leaf tissues of even K loving crops like beans and potatoes, they become sensitive to some of our favorite diseases (Botrytus and Erwinia). As Keiters, myself and a few others have noted, the incidence and virulence of disease in our plants has declined since reducing K.



Rats!, I've always wanted a spectrophotometer:rollhappy: Ok I'll check my aquarium store.


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## keithrs (Feb 10, 2012)

Which teas Rick? Fertilizer or the beneficial?


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## SlipperKing (Feb 10, 2012)

I'm guessing the fertilizer type?


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## keithrs (Feb 10, 2012)

SlipperKing said:


> I'm guessing the fertilizer type?



I don't really want to get to far off the topic.... but I use Foxfarms acid fertilizer, worm castings, and guano(mix of guano depending on stage of growth) mixture... 1/2 cup per gal of filtered water in a paint strainer. Added to that is kelp, organic molasses, fulvic acid mixture @ 15 ml per gal. Then I use plant success soluble @ 1/2 oz per 6 gals. Brew in a aerated container @ 72 deg for 24 hrs. I also top dress with the fertilizer mixture. Again I use this for my garden as of now but I may pull a few plant to test it on.


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## SlipperKing (Feb 10, 2012)

Man, that's a lot of crap in can if I can say that!


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## keithrs (Feb 10, 2012)

Pretty much any organic dry fertilizer has the beneficials in it if you wanted to try top dressing in a organic mix via bark or CHC. CHC is a better choose because the beneficials are "held" on to better.

The beneficial teas are alot simpler....

Also I only fertilize my garden once every 2 weeks.... I rely on organic matter(compost) to do most the feeding.


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## terryros (Feb 11, 2012)

A brief report back to the beginning topic: 

I am making a 10% solution of K-Lite (in my case 50 grams into 450 mL RO water so my solution is usually pretty fresh. I then add 25 mL of this stock solution per gallon RO water for the final working solution. To this I am adding 10 mL per gallon Kalpac. 

This final solution has an EC of about 0.82 and a pH of 4.7.

I am repotting everything into fresh New Zealand sphagnum and top dressing with a small amount of dolomitic limestone to target the pot medium to have a pH in the 5s.

Any one see an issue?


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## abax (Feb 12, 2012)

*How can any of us trust our observations and*

results of the K-Lite when the fertilizing program is altered
with additions to the low K regimen? I'm asking those
growers who are actually participating in the test.


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## Ray (Feb 12, 2012)

Picking up on Lance's comments a while back - if the fertilizer formula is all that is changed, and other additives are used just as they were before, an observant grower may be able to discern changes.


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## terryros (Feb 12, 2012)

Understood. I had better stay out with two variables changed.


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## Rick (Feb 12, 2012)

abax said:


> results of the K-Lite when the fertilizing program is altered
> with additions to the low K regimen? I'm asking those
> growers who are actually participating in the test.



Nobody ever just uses unaltered stuff anyway. I've never used regular MSU by itself, so my own personal use of additives or potting amendments is a constant with the only change being the switch to a low K fert. This trial is basically a "ground-proofing" exercise under real field conditions, which generally includes a lot of tinkering around the edges.

I'm not as tied into specific fertilizer mixes as singular black boxes of unknown magic ingredients. The main point was to reduce the total amount of K going to the plants, and increasing the amount of Ca/Mg. Remember I started my "work around" diluting regular MSU with CaNO3 and MgSO4 several months before K-lite was assembled. The K lite formulation is a singular method to go about that end.

So with regard to other additives, it would be good to know about their NPK CaMg content to determine whether the basic premise of a low K regime is making a difference.


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## terryros (Feb 12, 2012)

I think the addition of the kelp extract from Ray is probably a variable that could be confusing. If I saw enhanced growth, we wouldn't know what to credit. I wanted to stay pure with the k-Lite as the only variable switch, but the Kelpac was too tempting and as an aging grower, I decided I needed to be practical and try and get to the better solution as soon as I could. I will just watch the rest of you. If I get something really amazing in 6 months, I may report.


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## Stone (Feb 12, 2012)

Rick said:


> > I'm not as tied into specific fertilizer mixes as singular black boxes of unknown magic ingredients.
> 
> 
> 
> I just love the sound of this sentance but


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## jtrmd (Feb 12, 2012)

I haven't noticed much of anything,besides some ''greening'' up of some plants that usually like to stay a pale green color.It's also been a dreary winter here,with only a day or two of sunny days per week.I cant remember off hand,but I only started the K-lite for what seems like about a month ago(im too lazy to go check the calender I'm keeping track on).


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## Ozpaph (Feb 12, 2012)

Stone said:


> Rick said:
> 
> 
> > I just love the sound of this sentance but
> ...


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## Stone (Feb 12, 2012)

Ozpaph said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > He's been communicating with Peter Brock (........for the Oz car nuts).
> ...


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## Ray (Feb 23, 2012)

OK, snapping this back on-topic for a moment.

I may be over-interpreting my observations, but in the back of my mind I have this tickle suggesting that the flower spikes on some phals are budding-up more densely on shorter spikes than ever before - i.e., reduced inter-node spacing.

Maybe this is how we get "hyacinth" phals. I'll keep you posted.


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## abax (Feb 25, 2012)

*I really don't know if this is a valid observation since*

I've only used K-Lite three times, but my species Phals. seem to be blooming earlier and more profusely than previously. I've also seen a lot of new leaves popping up
rather earlier than expected. I have buds beginning on an
Iwan. that usually doesn't bloom until early summer. Something is stimulating this unusual growth, especially
since we've had practically no sun and an enormous amount of rain.

TN Rick, you're the closest neighbor I have and I assume
similar weather. Are you seeing lots of early new growth
and blooming?


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## Marc (Feb 25, 2012)

I'm so looking forward to my package arriving


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## Rick (Feb 25, 2012)

abax said:


> I've only used K-Lite three times, but my species Phals. seem to be blooming earlier and more profusely than previously. I've also seen a lot of new leaves popping up
> rather earlier than expected. I have buds beginning on an
> Iwan. that usually doesn't bloom until early summer. Something is stimulating this unusual growth, especially
> since we've had practically no sun and an enormous amount of rain.



I've been getting a huge amount of winter growth (new leaves, roots). And leaves are larger and very shiny. Almost as if using one of those leaf shine products. Flowering has been if anything slightly delayed (I thought since its been so cloudy). But flower quality seems as good as ever. It seems like flowers are lasting a bit longer than usual. For instance I have a little Phal equestris var. roseae (or is it rosacea?). It got down to 2 little purple leaves, but turned around over the past year. Up to about 5 leaves, green, and much bigger than before. It has a little spike too, and rather than sequentially trickling a few open flowers at a time (like the first time it bloomed for me), its holding about 6-8 flowers open at a time.


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## abax (Feb 26, 2012)

Hmmmm...I've noticed shinier leaves as well, but hadn't
considered the K-Lite as the reason. I have many equestris/primary crosses and they seem to like mounting and my gh conditions. They are soooo trustworthy bloomers. My surprises have been modesta,
two or three violaceas and a venosa that have been pouting until the last week or so. Interesting, eh?


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## Rick (Feb 26, 2012)

abax said:


> Hmmmm...I've noticed shinier leaves as well, but hadn't
> considered the K-Lite as the reason. I have many equestris/primary crosses and they seem to like mounting and my gh conditions. They are soooo trustworthy bloomers. My surprises have been modesta,
> two or three violaceas and a venosa that have been pouting until the last week or so. Interesting, eh?



Yes. I have a straight equestris that just keeps getting bigger and more floriferous with each small/incremental change I was making towards this final low-k conclusion. But just about all my phals have been improving. I've killed whole flasks of mannii and fasciata, but have turned around a couple of small mannii, and just got one to rebloom! My deliciousa is putting on new huge shiny leaves, my mounted belina put on a huge new growth of roots, and the new leaves are thick and tough. My little parrishii which I thought had just about "bloomed itself into torpor" last year has put on a big flush of roots and leaves. The list just keeps getting longer.


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## Rick (Feb 26, 2012)

I've made an observation from comparing both literature and growing conditions of some local growers that hybrids (especially hybrid phals and catts) seem to be more tolerant of high K fertilizers. Given the intense pressures of production growing it wouldn't surprise me that you could breed out a physiological intolerance for high K or breed in a mutation to expel excess K.

I'm guessing this is essentially how corn was "created". No one has discovered a "wild" corn, but it seems to have just appeared about the same time humanity colonized the new world, and started leaving piles of ashes from their fires around the edges of the villages.

If you recall wood ashes were humanities first form of agricultural potassium fertilizer (potash).

But I would also note that the handful of hybrid orchids I have are also doing much better than before!


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## gonewild (Feb 26, 2012)

Rick said:


> I've made an observation from comparing both literature and growing conditions of some local growers that hybrids (especially hybrid phals and catts) seem to be more tolerant of high K fertilizers. Given the intense pressures of production growing it wouldn't surprise me that you could breed out a physiological intolerance for high K or breed in a mutation to expel excess K.



The K tolerance that hybrids develop could come from the sowing media and replate media used in the flasks. If the media contains "high" levels of K then only seedlings that tolerate high K levels would survive past germination. That would set up a K tolerance genetic selection.


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## Ray (Feb 26, 2012)

...and it might simply be that the physiologies of those specific genera handle things differently than do some others.


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## Rick (Feb 26, 2012)

Yup all of the above.

But note my last sentence that even the hybrids in my collection are doing better (at least vegetatively) than before.

I expect given the diversity of folks collections that we will see a wide range of results. In general we get most excited about the extremes of death to CCE performance, but I expect we'll see more of a host of more nuanced positive results in the short term.


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## Rick (Feb 26, 2012)

gonewild said:


> The K tolerance that hybrids develop could come from the sowing media and replate media used in the flasks. If the media contains "high" levels of K then only seedlings that tolerate high K levels would survive past germination. That would set up a K tolerance genetic selection.



Yes it would, but it must not be so absolute or acute, since I've gone through flasks worth of seedlings that made it through flasking in the first place.


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## abax (Feb 28, 2012)

Do you have a nice fasciata now? I have a huge one with
several nice keiki...one with a nice spike of it's own. Would you like one of the keiki?


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## Rick (Feb 28, 2012)

abax said:


> Do you have a nice fasciata now? I have a huge one with
> several nice keiki...one with a nice spike of it's own. Would you like one of the keiki?



Mine is pretty big too since I've been growing it since 2002. The original mother plant is gone, but it has a good basal keiki coming up and a couple dozen aerial keikies. Some of which I bent back up to attach to the mount. Here it is in 2007. It's only a little bigger now, since it did the high-K boom and bust thing and went downhill for a few years after this thread.

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4217

Have you ever noticed a fragrance from yours? The flowers from mine produces a smell of tangerines on warm sunny days.


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## abax (Feb 29, 2012)

Hells bells, who's had any sunny days to tell! I've never
noticed a fragrance, but then again I have to climb a small
ladder to get up to it on the mounting rack to smell it. My
lovely modesta has a really nice fragrance though.


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## Marc (Feb 29, 2012)

I allready informed Ray but yesterday my package arrived from the US. All in all shipping took exactly 7 days which I find very fast for a package coming from the U.S.

Looking forward to joining the trail and share my experiences.


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## abax (Mar 13, 2012)

*About K-Lite dosage, 1/2 tsp. is too much fertilizer*

in my conditions. I found two leaves, one on a Iwan. and
one on a species Phal. with leaf tip burn. I got carried away apparently. 1/4 tsp. weekly is plenty of fertilizer for
my mixed collection.


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## Ray (Mar 13, 2012)

It seems unlikely to me that 1/2 tsp/gallon would be an issue for any plant. Looking at the mixing chart Greencare provided, that's only about 80 ppm N (which is about where my application level is, with no issues). Have you checked the pH of your solution?


----------



## keithrs (Mar 13, 2012)

I have... At about 80 PPM N in unbuffered RO water my ph is about 4.45.... I have to add about 15% tap back and my final solution is about 6.2 and 400 TDS.


----------



## Ray (Mar 13, 2012)

Keith - are you mixing in bulk for a metering pump, or a small volume at a time? I ask because this isn't the most homogeneous powder known to mankind, and I wonder if you're seeing some "sampling" variation.

I mix 5 lbs in ~15 gallons of RO water, and meter it into the same RO supply, and am getting a pH of 6.0.


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## keithrs (Mar 13, 2012)

I made a concentrate and from that I dilute in a tank for irrigation.


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## keithrs (Mar 13, 2012)

I will add that K-Lite has been around 4.4-4.7 pretty consistently for me. 

In comparison Peters ver. of MSU @ 80 PPM N would lower my irrigation water down to 4.8-5.0. Also out of a concentrate. 

I add about 2 gals. of tap and the PH comes up in the 6.2-6.5 range.


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## Ray (Mar 13, 2012)

Interesting. I just made up a fresh batch today, and it is 5.9.

Out of curiosity, does your batch have a flaky appearance or not? We have had a total of 3 batches so far. The first and third were granular and "prilly", the mag nitrate in the second was flaky.

My first tankful was from the first batch; this one is a mix of the two, with 60% of it from the first batch.


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## keithrs (Mar 13, 2012)

I was granular.... round balls.


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## keithrs (Mar 13, 2012)

I"ll make a batch of k-lite tomorrow..... Made a batch of RO + beneficial's today and had a PH of 4.41. 

I tested my concentrate PH while I had the pen out and got 1.90. My RO water is about a PH of around 6 most of the time. I'll do my test tomorrow and post them.


----------



## Rick (Mar 13, 2012)

keithrs said:


> I"ll make a batch of k-lite tomorrow..... Made a batch of RO + beneficial's today and had a PH of 4.41.
> 
> I tested my concentrate PH while I had the pen out and got 1.90. My RO water is about a PH of around 6 most of the time. I'll do my test tomorrow and post them.



Have you also been calibrating your pH pen? When was the last time you changed buffers?


----------



## keithrs (Mar 13, 2012)

Calibrated this morning.... Calibration fluids are 6 months old. Buffer? The ph end on the pen?


----------



## Rick (Mar 13, 2012)

keithrs said:


> Calibrated this morning.... Calibration fluids are 6 months old. Buffer? The ph end on the pen?



Buffer = calibration fluids. I take it you calibrate between 4 and 7? Although untouched buffers have a couple years of shelf life, the screw up in fairly short notice once opened and you dip stuff in and out of them. We end up changing ours at least monthly.


----------



## keithrs (Mar 14, 2012)

So, I made a batch of fertilizer this morning and checked my pH pen in the buffers(didn't calibrate it) checked out @ 7.04 and 4.00. Temp of buffers where 62.3. NO tap added.

Ro water- pH of 6.04 and TDS of 33
Concentrate Stock- pH of 2.04 
Final mix @ 1 Tbs per gal.- pH of 5.94 and TDS of 364

So, I think I was checking the pH with my additives added or my pen was out of calibration.... I'll have to wait intel the weekend before I can check with additives. I'll keep you posted.


----------



## Ray (Mar 20, 2012)

abax said:


> The original thread was getting so long that I thought I
> might try a new thread.
> 
> Ray, concerning the leaf tip burn issue, I did some testing
> ...



I really don't think your leaf-tip burn issue is K-Lite related. The pH is great and at 1/4 tsp/gal, you're only loading the solution with 40-45 ppm N.


----------



## Rick (Mar 20, 2012)

This is esentially the same feed rate that I am using (with my GH experiencing about the same conditions, since I'm not that far from Abax).

I'm not seeing any leaf tip burn on new growth from any of my orchids. At present I am seeing some old leaf drop in phals as new roots, spikes are coming in. In most cases the old / lower leaves are dying from the leaf tip back to the stem. Is that what you are seeing?

Also what is the hardness of your irrigation water (for between feeding misting and watering)?


----------



## abax (Mar 20, 2012)

Irrigation water is 6.0. No leaf tip burn on new growth at
all...just on old growth and really not much of that. Yeah,
pretty much just dying from the tip back. Sometimes I
panic when changing fertilizers. Glad to know that I'm keeping up with the TNians.

Thank you, Ray. You are a reassuring presence.

Meant to add that my lime, fig and avocado trees in the gh are LOVING the K-Lite!


----------



## Ray (Mar 20, 2012)

FWIW, upon starting with the K-Lite, I saw lower leaf loss - L³ - on some ascocendas, but they have all started putting out new roots and more leaves, so what's the worry?


----------



## Rick (Mar 20, 2012)

abax said:


> Irrigation water is 6.0.



That sounds like pH. Can you measure hardness (like you did your fert mix)?


----------



## Rick (Mar 20, 2012)

abax said:


> Sometimes I
> panic when changing fertilizers. Glad to know that I'm keeping up with the TNians.



Oh Yea of little faith oke::wink:


----------



## Ed M (Mar 21, 2012)

Just a note to let you all know that I'm following this discussion about low potassium feed. Pretty interesting.

I have been using Jack's 16-4-20-CalMag for years at a rate of about 150ppm N. Noted the plants would do well for awhile after repotting and then some would begin to decline after a year...maybe not that long. 

After listening to Rick (he's a buddy in our local society) I cut back on the Jack's and used more MgSO4. Then, the only thing my plants have gotten fed since last fall has been Calcium nitrate and Magnesium sulfate. Plants are responding very well. I've also been experimenting with my own 18-3-3-10ca-4mg on a group of plants. Also doing well.


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## abax (Mar 21, 2012)

Hardness 300 ppm. Very little change really. Rick, I've done the semi-panic thing every spring for 15 years and the new formula just made my neurosis a mite worse this
year. This abnormally hot weather is killing us in the tree
nursery. Digging trees that have leafed-out is a risky business and I transfer my anxiety to my gh. Silly me!

Aaaahhhh a TN spy in our midst. Hidoo Ed! I'm glad to hear that your plants are recovering well. It sure
would be nice if you'd join our experiment with K-Lite. Your input would be invaluable.


----------



## Rick (Mar 21, 2012)

abax said:


> Hardness 300 ppm. Very little change really.



Angela

A hardness of 300 is very hard water, and about what my well water is. Nashville tap water, in comparison, has a hardness of 80 - 100 ppm and is considered "Moderately hard" by EPA standards. EPA "soft water" is around 40-50 ppm, and "very soft" is half that again.

pH is irrelevant in discussion of hardness, but TDS is pertinent. Hardness is the measure of calcium and magnesium in water. In order to get 300 hardness you would need about 100 mg/L of calcium and 15 or so mg/L magnesium. 

You may consider thinning out your water with rain water or RO.


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## Ray (Mar 21, 2012)

A note for the gang - I am down to my last 12, 2# jars of K-Lite. If anyone wants full bags or larger fractions (I use it in 5# increments, for example), I'll need a lot of lead time, as Greencare is in full springtime production, and it'll be hard to squeeze it into their production plan.

Also, don't forget that I have to order a minimum of 5 , 25# bags, and I'm not inclined to do so if I only have a commitment for a small fraction of that.


----------



## terryros (Mar 22, 2012)

I just ordered two more jars because I am quite happy with K-Lite at this time, even though I don't know the long term results. I guess I will face what to do if we don't make any more K-Lite when it happens. It will just get more complicated to compound our own out of multiple preparations.


----------



## Ray (Mar 22, 2012)

I don't have a problem with keeping it in stock, but I just don't want to get stuck with it if folks end up not wanting it.


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## Ed M (Mar 22, 2012)

abax said:


> Aaaahhhh a TN spy in our midst. Hidoo Ed! I'm glad to hear that your plants are recovering well. It sure would be nice if you'd join our experiment with K-Lite. Your input would be invaluable.



I'm sure that you all will have good success with the K-Lite. I was considering getting some but I had already started my own experiments.

Tuesday night I took my nice Cattleya lueddemanniana to our local orchid society meeting and Rick looked it over pretty well. He noted how green and shiney the new leaves were (I don't clean my plants) and remarked that the Calcium nitrate-Magnesium sulfate seems to work pretty well. This plant bloomed really, really well with no phosphorous or potassium during the past six months at least. My plants probably have plenty of both stuck in their tissues and in potting media.

I think I may have noted elsewhere that these fertilizers with very low phos and potash do harken back to the first scientific work done by O. Wesley Davidson at Rutgers University during the 1940's and 50's, who then developed the well-known 30-10-10 ratios that most everyone used on their orchids until about twenty years ago. We're improving on this old knowledge with using more nitrate and ammonium instead of urea as well as the additional knowledge of the needs for Calcium and Magnesium. That's why I'm so confident in the success of the K-Lite and similar formulas.


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## SlipperKing (Mar 23, 2012)

Pay,
I can use a 25# bag of your finest K-Lite so keep me in mind. Thanks a million Ed for your valuable input


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## suss16 (Mar 24, 2012)

I could commit to take 2 5# ers from you.


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## abax (Mar 25, 2012)

TN Rick, we re-tested the irrigation water and it was 30, not 300. Old people do things like that, you know.


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## Rick (Mar 25, 2012)

abax said:


> TN Rick, we re-tested the irrigation water and it was 30, not 300. Old people do things like that, you know.



It's becoming a habit myself already

Anyway 30 ppm hardness is nice and soft, and is about what my RO/well water mix comes out to. This should be to use straight up.


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## Ray (Mar 25, 2012)

suss16 said:


> I could commit to take 2 5# ers from you.



"Could" or "will"?


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## suss16 (Mar 25, 2012)

Sorry for my indecisive sounding answer... will. I am almost out of my first 2# and the summer has not even started.


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## Ray (Mar 25, 2012)

Just busting your chops. Don't worry about it.

I have more on order.


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## SlipperKing (Mar 25, 2012)

Ray said:


> Just busting your chops. Don't worry about it.
> 
> I have more on order.



I meant Ray Not Pay! Must of been a subliminal thingly going on in my head!:rollhappy:


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## Rick (Mar 26, 2012)

Ray said:


> I have more on order.



Seems to be popular:wink:


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## Ray (Mar 26, 2012)

Someone on another forum was curious where it was being tested, so I looked it up: At this point, it has gone to folks in CA (north and south), CT, FL (all over), GA, IA, IN, KY, MD, MN, NC (mountains, central, and coastal), NM, NY (multiple), PA (multiple), TN, TX (multiple), VA, France, Holland, and Israel. Additionally, three others have purchased the stuff not to participate in the trial, but because (my paraphrasing of their comments) they have understood the connection between K and health for a long time, and are glad to finally find a commercial source of a viable product.

And then there are folks like Ed, mixing his own variant, and there are probably others.


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## Ray (Mar 26, 2012)

Bill Argo emailed me today, confirming my order and inquiring how the tests were going. I basically summarized what we've discussed here, and he responded with the following (which he said I could post):

"My current working hypothesis about why this fertilizer seems to be working is that these plants do not like too much phosphorus, or that they need some P, but it needs to be applied at a very low concentration. Otherwise, the high P will tie up other nutrients (probably micronutrients in the roots) which will limit growth. 

It could also be that they do not like relatively high soluble salt levels, and taking away some of the salts (P-salts and K salts) in addition to lowering the N concentration reduces the overall solution EC, letting the plant grow better.

As these plants grow, watch out for 2 things.

Potassium deficiency - you will see an edge burn that starts on the lower leaves and works its way up the plant.
Phosphorus deficiency - The growth will stall, and the plants will either take on a dark green cast, or they will have a reddish color in the older leaves.

Both of these nutrients are mobile within the plant. So, assuming that these nutrients were above some critical tissue concentration to start with, it is possible that as they grow (and the P and/or K are not resupplied by the 12-1-1 fertilizer), the P and/or K will dilute in the tissue until they reach some critical concentration were you will start to see deficiency symptoms. 

If the formula is correct, then you will never have deficiency symptoms. If you have deficiency symptoms, at least we will have an idea on how to reformulate."


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## Rick (Mar 26, 2012)

Ray said:


> "It could also be that they do not like relatively high soluble salt levels, and taking away some of the salts (P-salts and K salts) in addition to lowering the N concentration reduces the overall solution EC, letting the plant grow better."




This one doesn't make sense for brachies (and a few other coastal cliff dwellers) that are exposed to marine levels of TDS in the wild, but suffer "salt stress" in cultivation under pure water conditions with K as the primary cation.

Also interesting that Bill gives P a higher priority than K even though P was only reduced to 20% the amount in MSU while reducing K to only 8% of the basic amount in MSU.

But so far so good for me.


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## Rick (Mar 26, 2012)

Ray said:


> "Phosphorus deficiency - The growth will stall, and the plants will either take on a dark green cast, or they will have a reddish color in the older leaves.
> "



Bringing up the old threads/arguments, I used to see symptoms of P deficiency frequently while using MSU straight up. I was only able to aleaviate by adding supplemental Mg (from MgSO4) and/or well water with soluable Ca and Mg, (no supplemental P).

I did add bone meal a few times over the years in response to what appeared to be P deficiency symptoms, but only got temporary help from that.

But the point was that MSU was designed to not cause deficiencies, but I certainly saw them.


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## SlipperFan (Mar 26, 2012)

Ray said:


> Someone on another forum was curious where it was being tested, so I looked it up: At this point, it has gone to folks in CA (north and south), CT, FL (all over), GA, IA, IN, KY, MD, MN, NC (mountains, central, and coastal), NM, NY (multiple), PA (multiple), TN, TX (multiple), VA, France, Holland, and Israel. Additionally, three others have purchased the stuff not to participate in the trial, but because (my paraphrasing of their comments) they have understood the connection between K and health for a long time, and are glad to finally find a commercial source of a viable product.
> 
> And then there are folks like Ed, mixing his own variant, and there are probably others.



Don't forget MI...


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## cnycharles (Mar 26, 2012)

hey, who is testing the fertilizer in new mexico? they might be near where my mother/stepfather live. someone growing orchids there would be a big deal!


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## Stone (Mar 26, 2012)

IMO plants potted in chc will never show a K deficiency even if 0% is added for 2 years. Plants in bark will probably be ok for a year by which time they are close to repotting which will introduce a fresh source of K.
I can only really see a potential for true deficiency if your growing in 100% perlite or some such??


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## cnycharles (Mar 26, 2012)

maybe semi-hydro with inert media, or maybe plants mounted on material that doesn't break down much


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## abax (Apr 3, 2012)

I'm repotting some Paphs. into Orchiata and am wondering if anyone uses it straight or do you amend with sponge rock, sphag., whatever. I'd like the new mix to do well
combined with the K-Lite fertilizer. My plants seem to be
lovin' K-Lite after the panic over old leaf drop. That's stopped and I have far more blooms on two Iwans. than I've ever had before. Two Paphs. putting out new growth
like crazy that were pretty much stuck until the K-Lite.


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## cnycharles (Apr 3, 2012)

I use it like bark, and always use chunky perlite and charcoal. I add grodan rockwool cubes, and use that with wet phals and with paphs and phrags now. I also use some aragonite sand and with calcicolus paphs/phrags etc I use some crushed coral. For smaller paphs and seedlings I use the smaller version and larger for large phals in bigger pots


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## keithrs (Apr 3, 2012)

I use Power with hydroton and chopped spag. Can be use straight with no problems also.


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## SlipperFan (Apr 3, 2012)

I use orchiata with either diatomite or clay pellets and sponge rock. So far, Paphs seem to be doing well in it.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Apr 3, 2012)

While Ray and others have said to use it straight (which I have tried for a few), I still mix the bark with spongerock and charcoal like I always do, with some sphagnum mixed in for phrags and delanatii. While its a great medium, my favorite so far for paphs, I also still repot yearly. I don't trust any medium to last too long...especially after I found "long lasting" CHC breaking down as fast as bark.


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## Rick (Apr 3, 2012)

Stone said:


> I can only really see a potential for true deficiency if your growing in 100% perlite or some such??



Then keep track of what happens with the semi hydro growers.


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## abax (Apr 4, 2012)

I feel reassured now. I always use a bit of charcoal and
hydroton/sponge rock to keep the mix open in unglazed
clay orchid pots. Those growers who are less heavy-handed with watering can use it straight and in plastic
pots.


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## Ray (Apr 4, 2012)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> While Ray and others have said to use it straight (which I have tried for a few), I still mix the bark with spongerock and charcoal like I always do, with some sphagnum mixed in for phrags and delanatii. While its a great medium, my favorite so far for paphs, I also still repot yearly. I don't trust any medium to last too long...especially after I found "long lasting" CHC breaking down as fast as bark.



I don't think breaking-down is an issue for Orchiata for a VERY long time, and even with "ordinary" bark and CHC, I think mineral buildup - or "K-gain" as we probably ought to think of it - and plant waste accumulation, is more of a concern, and is the primary reason for repotting.

However, if we truly buy into the (Ca+Mg)/K being the important factor, K-gain should be less of an issue in Orchiata, as it is treated with dolomite solutions, artificially tilting the balance toward the Ca+Mg, allowing more time before the K gets to a significantly-proportional level.

That is not to say that the ever-increasing EC isn't an issue...


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## keithrs (Apr 4, 2012)

keithrs said:


> So, I think I was checking the pH with my additives added or my pen was out of calibration.... I'll have to wait intel the weekend before I can check with additives. I'll keep you posted.



I made a batch of fertilizer this morning and tested the pH of the final stock before and after adding seaweed, fulvic acid. 

Before - 5.91
After - 4.48

I added some tap to bring the final pH to 6.3. 

I would be curious what others find there pH to be after adding additive in....


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## keithrs (Apr 4, 2012)

Ray said:


> I don't think breaking-down is an issue for Orchiata for a VERY long time, and even with "ordinary" bark and CHC, I think mineral buildup - or "K-gain" as we probably ought to think of it - and plant waste accumulation, is more of a concern, and is the primary reason for repotting.
> 
> However, if we truly buy into the (Ca+Mg)/K being the important factor, K-gain should be less of an issue in Orchiata, as it is treated with dolomite solutions, artificially tilting the balance toward the Ca+Mg, allowing more time before the K gets to a significantly-proportional level.
> 
> That is not to say that the ever-increasing EC isn't an issue...



I'm adding Hygrozyme twice a month to see if it helps with the plant waste accumulation. I think it will be some time to see if it works.


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## cnycharles (Apr 14, 2012)

Though my plants are not in their normal growing area at the moment since I haven't put them together since moving, I have used the k-lite at the rate ray recommended, and for plants not stressed by moving too much, many that are putting out new leaves, have a very nice, shiny healthy look to them. I haven't seen leaves that happy-looking in a long time. I know this isn't a scientific observation, but I'm sticking with it


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## Ray (Apr 17, 2012)

Just got in more K-Lite.

Folks wanting 2# jars or 25# bags, please order them directly from the online store.

Those of you who want 2# bags for international shipping via a USPS Small Flat Rate Box, or those of you that want other volumes bagged, please contact me via email, NOT private message.


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## billc (Apr 18, 2012)

I started with the K-lite back in January and with the onset of spring and the new leaves coming out I've seen a distinct greening on the new growth. I also took Rick's advice and started cutting my rain water with about 10% tap water in between feedings. I'm currently feeding at 60-70PPM and think things are going pretty good.

Bill


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