# I'm thinking of new lighting: halides?



## smartie2000 (Feb 26, 2008)

I am thinking of getting a metal halide or high pressure sodium fixture, but I don't know which one is generally better for orchids. I don't know too much about these fixtures really so I need some help. Can I pass with 200W or do I have to go with 400W? I see so many fixtures for sale on ebay...

Currently my grow area is about 6 x 5 feet, with four shop lights hanging from the ceiling of the basement. It is just a room I created by hanging thick plastic around it, so size is flexible. I'm finding the shop lights to be clumsy and annoying as they swing around when I get a plant. Also they don't provide room for spikes to develop. Wattage will be nearly the same too since I have 4 x 80W = 320W shop lights anyway.

I will defintiely be able to use the extra space for taller plants and spike development (and even for higher light stuff). I'll probably have a layer of mylar for reflection too.


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## NYEric (Feb 26, 2008)

How high are your ceilings or are you going to add an air conditioner to handle all the extra heat!?


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## smartie2000 (Feb 26, 2008)

The ceiling is a little more than 7 feet. I can't add air conditioner unfortunately.


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## NYEric (Feb 26, 2008)

You are basically adding a heater to that space.


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## smartie2000 (Feb 26, 2008)

I was reading on reef sites and metal halides are supposed to give more lumens for wattage, and if I understand correctly then I can assume fluorescents are less effecient then. I am already using 320W so shouldn't I already have a heater if the statement on the reef site is correct?


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## Elena (Feb 26, 2008)

I've been using Envirolites this winter. The heat is not a problem with these and the plants seem pretty happy under them although this is my first light set up so I can't really compare them with other lights. Not sure if these are available in US/Canada though.


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## smartie2000 (Feb 26, 2008)

I googled quickly and Envirolite are compact fluroescents of some sort. I gotta go to class now...


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## smartie2000 (Feb 26, 2008)

If im thinking correctly, halids/HPS seem hotter because all the heat is in one concentrated area, while shop lights seem less hot because heat is dispersed over a large area. I still burnt plant leaves on shop lights.

I'm still not sure whether halide or sodium is better because I haven't had the experience. Halide are supposed to be blue, while sodium is redder.

hmmm... if I get this lighting I can hang larger catts and a vanda :drool:

according to "Understanding Orchids" 250W is only good for 3'x4'x4'. I could only use this wattage if I hung my paphs all over the walls and stuff.
I don't have enough plants to completely fill a 400W room (unless I take everything off the windowsills), according to Jason Fischer's Website I can do a 8' x 8' area with their PL sodium fixtures


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## GaryB (Feb 26, 2008)

Go with the 400W MH. You have 30 sq. ft., the 400W MH is about 40,000 lumens, and you will end up with the right intensity for paphs. If you have multiflorals, put them in the middle where the light intensity is higher.

Please note: 400W produces the same heat regardless of technology; MH, Fluorescent, HPS, etc. Why? Because in the end all light becomes heat (If it didn't, you could turn off your light after a couple of seconds and the light would continue to bounce around the room forever!).


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## Ron-NY (Feb 26, 2008)

I would go with the 400 HPS for it is the red/orange part of the spectrum that is needed for blooming.

I would also choose the 430 Watt Philips Son Agro HPS light bulb which has a 30% increased blue spectrum in addition to the red/orange spectrum needed for flowering and budding. The Son Agro lamp offers the benefits of a Metal Halide and HPS lamp since it combines the two spectrums. The 430 Son Agro light bulb can be used with a 400 or 430 Watt HPS ballast.

The ballast produces a lot of heat. A remote ballast placed outside of the growing area will decrease heat issues. The cord from the ballast to the light is usually 6 feet long, I believe.


You can get quite a bit of info here: http://www.littlegreenhouse.com/guide3.shtml


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## smartie2000 (Feb 27, 2008)

thanks,
Can the cord be extended? I don't think 6 feet is long enough.


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## Ron-NY (Feb 27, 2008)

Fren, I don't know. The company that I gave you the link for has a toll free #, ask them that question and any others that you may have. I am sure they are knowledgeable.


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## GaryB (Feb 27, 2008)

Ron-NY said:


> The cord from the ballast to the light is usually 6 feet long, I believe.




The cordsets (ballast to light) on my Hydrofarm and SunSystem units are 15 feet.


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## jblanford (Feb 27, 2008)

Fren.... I've been doing a test w/CFLs, and so far I'm happy. heres what I did I replaced a 400W/MH with a unit I made it has 2 105W/CFLs for a total of 210Ws they are 5000K daylight good for Phals & Paphs. I always measure in FCs. heres my results, hope this is of some help. Jim.

400MH..................210w/CFLs
12" 1000 fcs........ 12" 1600
24" 600 .............. 24" 800
48" 200 .............. 48" 400

Now also remember you could use 4 of these lights and still only be at 420 Watts.


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## littlefrog (Feb 27, 2008)

How much do the 105W CFLs cost? Did you just drill out a HID hood, or did did you make that fixture special? It is a nice looking hood...

I'm strongly considering retiring my 400W MH lights and putting in a few banks of fluorescent tubes. Probably T8 shoplights with a new bulb that I like (Phillips XLL-Alto). Twice as much life and a very nice output intensity. This is what I am using over my frog vivs.

I'm pretty sure that my paphs and phrags grew better under fluorescent tubes than in any other conditions I've tried. MH or greenhouse. Of course I'll grow most of my paphs in the greenhouse, but I think for seedlings the tubes are optimal. 

Anybody want some 400W MH lights? You'd have to pick them up...


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## jblanford (Feb 27, 2008)

Hi Rob...I made the reflector box from a tub that I purchased at Ikea for about $12.00. The bulbs use regular household sockets. The bulbs can be purchased at 
1000Bulbs. I drilled holes in tub for heat but there is hardly any. The bulbs have an 8000hr life span. Here is my other set-up I bought two 2 bulb fictures and screwed them together to make one 4 bulb ficture 8ft long, it works great it's a combo of Philips Colortone X Altos. Need anymore info let me know. Jim.


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## Ron-NY (Feb 27, 2008)

Rob, from what I have been reading the T5 is a better way to go over T8 technology.

Looks like you could get 105w CFL for about $28 here: http://store.cousinsvideo.com/eik-sp105-41-med.html


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## GaryB (Feb 27, 2008)

jblanford said:


> Fren.... I've been doing a test w/CFLs, and so far I'm happy. heres what I did I replaced a 400W/MH with a unit I made it has 2 105W/CFLs for a total of 210Ws they are 5000K daylight good for Phals & Paphs. I always measure in FCs. heres my results, hope this is of some help. Jim.
> 
> 400MH..................210w/CFLs
> 12" 1000 fcs........ 12" 1600
> ...



Something is not right. 

A 105W CFL is rated at 6700 lumens. Two would give you just over 13,000 lumens. A 400W MH is 36,000 to 40,000 lumens, which is about 3 times the light of 2 105W CFLs. Unless the MH bulb is old, the reflector is poor, or something, the CFLs cant give a higher reading than the MH.


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## smartie2000 (Feb 27, 2008)

littlefrog said:


> I'm pretty sure that my paphs and phrags grew better under fluorescent tubes than in any other conditions I've tried.


Interesting statement. Perhaps I maybe better off keeping things the way they are based on your experience.

I found some cheap halides on eBay, but have a feeling they are crap. Has anyone used these cheap eBay fixtures?


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## Corbin (Feb 28, 2008)

GaryB said:


> Please note: 400W produces the same heat regardless of technology; MH, Fluorescent, HPS, etc. Why? Because in the end all light becomes heat (If it didn't, you could turn off your light after a couple of seconds and the light would continue to bounce around the room forever!).



I have a real problem with this statement. Grab a 100W incandescent light that has been on for a while and then grab a 100W fluorescent. I think you will definitely see that the incandescent is much hotter. A truer statement would be that all light generates heat when striking an opaque object.


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## GaryB (Feb 28, 2008)

Corbin said:


> I have a real problem with this statement. Grab a 100W incandescent light that has been on for a while and then grab a 100W fluorescent. I think you will definitely see that the incandescent is much hotter. A truer statement would be that all light generates heat when striking an opaque object.




I think we are saying the same thing just in different ways. Energy is neither created nor destroyed, only converted from one form to another. A 100 Watts is a 100 Watts regardless of the lighting technology and it all eventually becomes heat. The fact the fluorescent is cooler to the touch means that more energy starts out as light, not that the total amount of heat from the fluorescent is less.


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## NYEric (Feb 28, 2008)

Just let her install the metal halides and find out. I had a mini-reef setup w/ a small one and almost fried my hand on the regular!


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## Irongoat (Feb 28, 2008)

I've enjoyed my combo unit for a few years now. It's a total of 500 watts - 250 MH and 250 HPS. Remote ballast box that houses both ballasts. Since HPS yields more fcs than MH, I started with 250 HPS extended spectrum. I still had some stretching from the plants and I wanted brighter light too so almost immediatley I moved up to my current setup. I made a bench, roughly 3x3. And there's enough light on the periphery for lower light 'chids. I keep my catts in the middle. 

It is more flexible re: height since the light fall-off isn't so drastic as fluorescent tubes. 

The setup is in a small room roughly 8x9. It gets warm but I keep it closed to contain humidity. Wintertime it doesn't get much above 80. Summertime it can get 85-86 with no ac but there's naturally higher humidity in the summer so I can crack the door and keep the fans going. They all did fine last year. I can't possibly guess what your temps would be, but just wanted you to know that even though it generates heat, it's not crippling. 

HTH


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## smartie2000 (Mar 4, 2008)

How is PL lighting system? I found this on eBay. Considering the quality of the reflector, it doesn't seem too expensive. I'm not sure if I could put the ballast outside of growing area on this one.
PL LIGHT SYSTEMS 400W HIGH PRESSURE SODIUM GROW LIGHT!
I'll think bout it. Getting this light means I can think 3D and hang things, use racks and use wall space, its so tempting

My basement is quite cool in the winter and does not get hot in the summer. The floor is cement and so is one wall. I haven't done any temp readings yet for some reason


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## rdlsreno (Mar 4, 2008)

I use a 600 watt HPS. I does get hot during summer. I do lessen the light duration during summer and open up the windows.

Ramon


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## Leo Schordje (Mar 4, 2008)

Myself I am using the 430 Watt Philips Son Agro HPS bulbs. I like them very much. I can grow tall Phrags and one lone Vanda under the 430 W lamps and I get good blooming every year. One lamp would do well for your 5 x 6 area. 

Now is the electric bill is a concern, and you have a little extra capital to get started - in Alaska - where even greenhouses have to supplement light in winter - I would try LED lights. I visited 2 growers who were using LED and the results were pretty good. The color of the lights is disturbing, so I would not use this system in your living room, but 5 Watts of LED puts out a tremendous amount of light. The Alaska growers got their lamps from http://www.ledgrowlights.com/ 

I think if I were to switch to LED - I would have some compact fluorescents or ordinary cool white fluorescent tubes around to provide a little natural light so you can see what is going on. If the only lights you see your plants in is the red & blue of the LED the effect is tough on the eyes as you get confusing color cues to the eye. A little full spectrum light in the grow area will make the human feel better. I am not expanding my grow area, so it may be a while before I try these, but my electric bill keeps going up, as lamps age, I am thinking about trying something new. 

One note of warning from my Alaska people: surge protectors, as in the UPS-CS type units for computers that use a battery to condition and smooth the power from line voltage, are suggested for LED lamps, they have a tendancy to fail after a power company does a brown out or power failure and the associated current spikes when brought back up. 

For what ever it is worth, my 2 cents


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## NYEric (Mar 4, 2008)

Wow Leo, those lights are just like "up in the club"! :rollhappy:


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## smartie2000 (Mar 4, 2008)

I though about LEDs too. I read of some not so good experiences on some members of Orchid Board b/c the spectrum is too small.

Otherwise they would be the perfect lighting to save energy!


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## smartie2000 (Mar 9, 2008)

I decided that i would not get the sodium fixture b/c of the yellow colour it makes and I read they are better for supplimental lighting and not as well as the only source of light. 

I might get this illumalights digital ballast setup on ebay. I've read digital has more efficient ballasts and can do both MH and HPS. what do you think? The pictures of the listing bugs me.
http://cgi.ebay.ca/DIGITAL-AIR-COOLED-GROW-LIGHT-400-WATT-HPS-MH-400W_W0QQitemZ380003131085QQihZ025QQcategoryZ42225QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I googled and came about two weed growing forums (why the hell would someone post openly bout growing weed? lol) suggesting digital ballasts were crap and they blow bulbs which concerns me


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## smartie2000 (Mar 24, 2008)

weeeee....!
I have my metal halide set up for almost a week. They look very bright! though I assume this is because there is a lot of green light coming out of them, as the eye picks up green the most. I increased the size of my growing area too (more room to walk and to accomodate growing plants). I'm disapointed with the footcandle reading near the edges of the space (approx 300), but the readings directly under the lights is very high (approx 1500). I think I am going to increase photoperiod, so I just changed it from 12hrs to 13hrs.

The light is not that hot. My shop lights might have been hotter if I added up all the heat dispersed over four lights.

I'm waiting for my mylar to come in...that will change my footcandle readings

From http://www.geocities.com/~marylois/archiv70.html


> ...The one we are most familiar with is chlorophyll. Chlorophyll is receptive to the 'blue' (0.44 um) and 'red' (0.66 um) wavelengths of the visual spectrum. However, experimentation by Loomis (1965) found light absorption in four different plant species (not orchids) to be 92% in the blue wavelengths (0.4 - 0.5 um), 71% in the green-yellow wavelengths (0.5 - 0.6 um), and 84% in the orange-red wavelengths (0.6 - 0.7 um).


so according to Loomis some green is absorbed, I always thought none was, which means not all the green the MH is producing is wasted light in my mind

I think I might add the HPS PL lighting if I can get it cheap enough (my bank is hurting...), to turn on for a few hours for the red spectrums (and maybe stimulate sunrise/sunset if possible?). And it could be a spare since who knows when my 'made in china' light will fail


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## GaryB (Mar 27, 2008)

smartie2000 said:


> I googled and came about two weed growing forums (why the hell would someone post openly bout growing weed? lol) suggesting digital ballasts were crap and they blow bulbs which concerns me



I found that the groups most knowledgeable of lighting are the salt-water tank / reef people and the pot growers.


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