# Not so genuine gratrixianum



## Trithor (Apr 21, 2013)

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I have been growing this for a few years now, all the time accepting its label as correct. Labeled as 'gratrixianum', after reading a few threads, I realise that it may be ?affine? (whatever that is)


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## Hera (Apr 21, 2013)

Whatever it is, it has beautiful coloration. It would be a keeper for me.


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## Roy (Apr 21, 2013)

From my research, the sameness of both, affine & gratrix' by the flower is is remarkable & impossible to tell apart. Is the base of each fan covered in deep red/maroon spotting??? and are the leaves narrow??


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## Trithor (Apr 21, 2013)

Roy, somewhere in that lettuce crop of leaves are the leaf bases, I think. The leaves are narrow and the bases have a fair amount of maroon markings. This year it has 16 flowe spikes, of which only two are currently open


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## Rick (Apr 21, 2013)

That's a really good looking flower and big plant Trithor

I'd recognize it as "gratrixianum" wide leaves or not. But if you want to call it afine I'll also know what you are talking about.


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## eggshells (Apr 21, 2013)

Wow, very well grown.


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## jtrmd (Apr 21, 2013)

Rick said:


> I'd recognize it as "gratrixianum" wide leaves or not. But if you want to call it afine I'll also know what you are talking about.



I had the gratrixianum I got awarded a few yrs back (thin leaved),and another clone(thick wide leaves) I had around that were id'd by the S.I.T.F. They called them both gratrixianum so it is what it is.I think the taxonomy confusion just gives people something to argue about,and thats why I pay it no mind.In the 10+ years I have been growing Orchids names have been changed,but my tags have stayed the same.


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## Roy (Apr 21, 2013)

I agree with Rick, I'd leave the label as gratrixianum. If anything, the pouch is more grat' than affine. I doubt 'anyone' will argue.


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## quietaustralian (Apr 22, 2013)

The original description of P affine says it was a mottle leaved plant, affine was probably a natural hybrid.


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## SlipperFan (Apr 22, 2013)

Looks like a very good gratrix to me, but I'm not a taxonomist.


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## Trithor (Apr 22, 2013)

quietaustralian said:


> The original description of P affine says it was a mottle leaved plant, affine was probably a natural hybrid.



oh oh, now you have started something!


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## abax (Apr 23, 2013)

If the plant has the "fine" purple/magenta, then it's gratrix. Like "a fine
purple spots" at the base of the plant. That's enough for me and your's
is lovely.


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## quietaustralian (Apr 23, 2013)

Trithor said:


> oh oh, now you have started something!



The original description is posted in this thread http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22360 .
Xavier translated the description in post#6 and I've asked other native French speakers to confirm the description.

It seems that many taxonomists didn't bother to reference the original description.


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## SlipperKing (Apr 23, 2013)

Very fine clone you have Trithor.


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## Trithor (Apr 23, 2013)

Thanks all, for the positive comments. This is one of the plants that I have been concerned by the dead leaf tips. It is on the older growths and the newer growths do appear clear. It is potted on a small dustbin as that was all I could find at the time. I thought perhaps that the roots had suffered in the dustbin, but when I tipped it out, it had grown solid with roots.
I will post a new pic when the flowers are nearly all open. It seems that more emerge each day (22 at this mornings count)


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## s1214215 (Apr 26, 2013)

Cant wait to see my gratrixianum bloom.. Supposed to have come from the Bolivan plateau area of Laos. Pics of this plant seem so different to what I see posted here and elsewhere.

Brett


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## Trithor (Apr 26, 2013)

OK now I am properly confused! This looks more like exul to me, obviously I have no idea as to what gratrixianum is. Please wont the experts give some advice so that I can correct my labeling. I was about to photograph another 4 clones and post them here in the morning. Perhaps I had better wait to avoid looking too silly?


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## s1214215 (Apr 26, 2013)

I am not expert, so I would like to know more too from people in the know. 

The pic I posted was taken at the Bolivan plateau in Laos. Exul comes from around Krabi Island in Thailand, so no were near these. In some ways this reminds me of insigne, but the plant is nothing like that species. I have often wondered are we really confusing different species under the name gratrixianum?


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## Stone (May 6, 2013)

s1214215 said:


> Cant wait to see my gratrixianum bloom.. Supposed to have come from the Bolivan plateau area of Laos. Pics of this plant seem so different to what I see posted here and elsewhere.
> 
> Brett



Thats a real nice thing Brett. Looks like 2 seperate clones in that clump too?


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## wonderlen3000 (May 7, 2013)

IMO the taxonomist have too much free time in their hand. lol


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## Justin (May 7, 2013)

please post more pictures they are beautiful.


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## Rick (May 7, 2013)

s1214215 said:


> I am not expert, so I would like to know more too from people in the know.
> 
> The pic I posted was taken at the Bolivan plateau in Laos. Exul comes from around Krabi Island in Thailand, so no were near these. In some ways this reminds me of insigne, but the plant is nothing like that species. I have often wondered are we really confusing different species under the name gratrixianum?



Any of us can be "experts" if we just compare pics with no reference to geography or size metrics.

As noted these guys look more like insigne or exul. This picture could be the reason that Averyanov is speculating on the range of "exul" extending outside of the Island of Krabi onto to mainland Indochina.

There are lots of villosum varieties that have flowers that look very similar to exul, insigni, gratrixianum (if all you see is the flower pic), but are very different in flower size (which will make a big difference on pollinator selection). 

Despite the picture similarities, my exul and gratrixianum flowers are almost 1/2 the size of villosum flowers. So even if they looked the same in a picture they could not be mechanically pollinated by the same insect.

There are other ways to cause genetic isolation in pollination, some of which we cannot even see (like fragrance). 

So given that flower taxonomy is fairly limited to visual metrics, its pretty important to know the geographic source of your plant of possible to get a handle on "what it is".


There are blondes in Italy too! So you can't say that all blondes are Swedish or German just by looking at photos.


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## Trithor (May 8, 2013)

Whew! I thought I was alone in thinking it looked more like exul than gratrixianum. Another factor which would keep them distinct in the wild would be time of flowering. In my greenhouse the gratrixianums all flower much earlier in the season (autumn) and the exuls later (spring), and I don't think I have ever seen an overlap (not in my greenhouse in any case).


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## Rick (May 8, 2013)

Trithor said:


> Whew! I thought I was alone in thinking it looked more like exul than gratrixianum. Another factor which would keep them distinct in the wild would be time of flowering. In my greenhouse the gratrixianums all flower much earlier in the season (autumn) and the exuls later (spring), and I don't think I have ever seen an overlap (not in my greenhouse in any case).



Yes time of year is a biggy if you don't have geography on your side.

At least with the present understanding of the exul and gratrixianum concepts, exul is geograpically isolated down in a handful of small Islands on the Maylay archipeligo (Krabi). Gratrixianum is towards the northen end of Loas or Vietnam. So even without a different season, there's enough distance to warrant separation. 

Now gratrixianum versus the zillion variants of villosum?????:evil:


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