# Rank your most important cultural parameters



## Jim Toomey (Jun 21, 2011)

What is the most important parameters in your culture?

I would rank the list of most important list of culture parameters as:

1. Light
2. Water
3. Temperature
4. Fertilizer
5. Air circulation (added for pete's sake) 
Leaves should be at a 45 degree angle (for the most part). Added later (thanks pete) ... I was thinking of paphs when I wrote that part
Not droopy or bleached, droopy generally means lack of light, bleached means too much light... If you are talking about an otherwise healthy undiseased plant.

How would you rank them?


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## biothanasis (Jun 21, 2011)

Jim, what would ranking be based on??? What we lack & need for our conditions most or what we can control better than the rest? Generally it is a tricky question, as it is the balance of these factors that counts and not the exemption of them. Did I understand right?? o)


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## Ernie (Jun 21, 2011)

This is a trick question! They're all equally important since they all intermingle. 

This is like asking "what's your favorite ingredient in cake?"  

I envision these as a wheel or spiderweb, not a list. 

Tack on *pest control* _and _*air movement* _and _*humidity *_and _*repotting/mix*.


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## Jim Toomey (Jun 21, 2011)

Sorry,
No trick intended... Not my intention.
You are right Biothanasis.
Good analogy Earnie! A spiderweb or bubble map would be ideal!

I was trying to write with my four year old running around.

Let me try again... 
In your mind, what cultural requirements that new and experienced growers should keep in mind when (re)evaluating the growing environment? 
Does not need to be in any particular order...

With the blistering heat, I was looking over the gh thinking if all the needs were being met, and thought it might be a good topic to discuss...
Your thoughts?


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## Ernie (Jun 21, 2011)

Well, IMO higher temperatures usually mean one would benefit by...

*increasing air movement to help cool leaves

*increasing humidity to offset the increased transpirational water loss from the increased air movement and increased plant metabolism

*decreasing light intensity to help cool and prevent leaf burn

*watering more frequently to make up for water evaporating from the pots and increased root "drinking" due to higher metabolism

*possibly feeding more frequently or more heavily to keep up with increased metabolism

*better monitor pests since bugs and slugs like warm weather

*using non/slowly decomposing media/amendments to offset the higher humidity and frequent watering


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## NYEric (Jun 21, 2011)

Parameters:
#1 - pest control
#2 - disease control - pest are a vector that lead to loss of leaves
#3 - media condition - deterioration of media leads to loss of roots
#4 - Moisture control - dessication of roots or crown rot of leaves leads to loss of plants
#5 - Air movement - with moisture can control temperature
#6 - Light _ I luckily have good light 
$7 - fertilizing - plants lived long before we developed fertilizer its just icing on the cake.


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## Pete (Jun 22, 2011)

how could air movement be omitted in the first post???? i consider that as important as anything. also saying that leaves should be at a 45 degree angle is ridiculous. were dealing with a highly diverse genus with upward of 90+ taxa. some leaves are longer and droop, others are more rigid and upright.


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## Jim Toomey (Jun 22, 2011)

Hi pete,
Air circulation should have been mentioned... I have a great deal of air circulation in my Gh, so that slipped my mind as something I needed to consider.

The 45 degree angel was regarding Paph's, which I did not mention by name, but I will stand by the comment in regards to paphs's leaves need to be at a 45 degree angel "( for the most part)".

Thanks for your insights!


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## Bolero (Jun 22, 2011)

1. Water
2. Light (they can live without a lot of light but won't live without water)
3. Air Movement
4. Temperature
5. Fertiliser


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## Pete (Jun 22, 2011)

eric- i would bump fertilizing up a few notches. for the following reasons, first, plants have lived for long time without fertilizer but we cannot provide them all of the various nutrient sources in a man made (often nutrient poor) media that they get in the wild. also we dont just want them to live do we? just to get by and survive.. we want them to grow well! i would also reckon that a well fed and robust plant would be less susceptible to infestation by bacteria, fungi or insects than a weaker less well fed/robust plant would be. just my two cents


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## Brian Monk (Jun 22, 2011)

Fertilizer would come dead last, maybe close to snake oil. If you can't get temperature, moisture, light, air movement, and other cultral considerations right, then fertilizer won't help you. IN fact, fertilizing a weakly growing orchid is akin to pouring gasoline on a fire - you will just make it worse.


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## Pete (Jun 22, 2011)

obviously the essentials, as you have listed, temp, light, air, h20, etc are important but in my opinion and experience fertilizer is very important. if i didnt fertilize my plants they would not grow or bloom half as well as they do. thats a *fact*. i have tried not fertilizing them. ive also been the head grower at 2 different orchid production facilities, for years and years, one in a hotter drier locale, the other cooler and wetter. both growing mixed genera, and whenever there was a problem with the fert, the plants suffered.


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## emydura (Jun 22, 2011)

Pete said:


> obviously the essentials, as you have listed, temp, light, air, h20, etc are important but in my opinion and experience fertilizer is very important. if i didnt fertilize my plants they would not grow or bloom half as well as they do. thats a *fact*. i have tried not fertilizing them. ive also been the head grower at 2 different orchid production facilities, for years and years, one in a hotter drier locale, the other cooler and wetter. both growing mixed genera, and whenever there was a problem with the fert, the plants suffered.



I agree. I changed my fertilising regime about a year ago and I have seen a massive improvement in the growth of my Paphs. My multi's are now getting more flowers as a result.

David


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## PaulS (Jun 22, 2011)

I was a commercial houseplant grower in NZ, and I agree with Pete and David. If you don't get the feed right the plant will not be up to par. My other big criteria would be the potting mix, and air movement. If you get them wrong you will have fungal problems. 

I have bought too many plants over the years that have been undernourished, and it has taken as many as two years to get them up to speed.


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## Justin (Jun 22, 2011)

Ernie is right that all factors are inter-related. 

For a far less nuanced take, here is my list of priority for my indoor under-lights conditions. At one time i would have said light is most important, but lately air circulation has been climbing up the ranks.

1. Pure R/O water
2. Air circulation
3. Light
4. humidity
5. fertilizer
6. temperature
7. media


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## Ernie (Jun 22, 2011)

Pete said:


> obviously the essentials, as you have listed, temp, light, air, h20, etc are important but in my opinion and experience fertilizer is very important. if i didnt fertilize my plants they would not grow or bloom half as well as they do. thats a *fact*. i have tried not fertilizing them. ive also been the head grower at 2 different orchid production facilities, for years and years, one in a hotter drier locale, the other cooler and wetter. both growing mixed genera, and whenever there was a problem with the fert, the plants suffered.



I can see both arguments. Pete made his point very well, and I agree it's very correct for his situation. So to argue the other side... To me, the reasoning why fertilizer is thought least important and at the bottom of some lists is that plants can at least _live_ without fertilizer, BUT if you put them in a dark closet with no light, water, humidity, or air movement- they'll die, possibly pretty quickly (although the reduced light will reduce the demand for water... so they could hang in for a while). Again, the interplay is very important. Plants getting optimum environmental conditions (air movement, root watering, humidity, light...) will certainly benefit from proper fertilization. But if a hobbyist has struggling plants, I'd say most times chances are something more environmental (temp, air, water, humidity) is out of whack and fertilizer should be reduced until a better balance of other grow conditions is achieved. 

Having been under lights growers for a LONG time and now switched to "gorilla growing" (love that term John M) outdoors, we've experienced both extremes. It's a lot easier to strike an environmental balance in a greenhouse or tropical/subtropical outdoor climate than it is under lights or on a windowsill where the grower is fighting pleasing their plants with keeping their relationship intact and not ruining their house. Some greenhouse growers may unintentionally overlook the struggles indoor growers experience. 

I'm glad Sherman's Lagoon Jim started this thread. Excellent discussion with no correct across-the-board answer. Keep it rolling...


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## goldenrose (Jun 22, 2011)

This thread certainly makes on stop & think. I'm not really sure where I would rank my upper parameters or should I say with a 1,2,3 priority but I'm beginning to know which ones would be lower on the list! I'll use Eric's list to explain -


NYEric said:


> Parameters:
> #1 - pest control
> #2 - disease control - pest are a vector that lead to loss of leaves
> #3 - media condition - deterioration of media leads to loss of roots
> ...


#1 & 2 would be at the bottom of my list, if I'm getting the other stuff right, shouldn't the plants have better pest/disease resistance?
and as far as the leaf angle goes, sorry, but the plant is not smart enough to adapt is own leaf angle to get the best for survival, it doesn't deserve to live or be bred.


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## Ernie (Jun 22, 2011)

Sorry, Jim, you're on your own with that leaf angle thing.  I disagree there totally- extremely variable trait that can't be generalized for all Paphs. However, if one sees a drastic change in the typical plant/leaf habit for a particular plant, could indicate something is up. That is, if the leaves have been growing at a given angle for years then they are suddenly floppy or totally upright.


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## Ernie (Jun 22, 2011)

goldenrose said:


> if I'm getting the other stuff right, shouldn't the plants have better pest/disease resistance?



Most certainly. Just like humans, stressed plants are more likely to get cooties. Healthy beings fight them off more effectively.


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## labskaus (Jun 22, 2011)

1. an observative eye, a good, balanced climate (Temperature, humidity, air, light), the right mix of nutrients in water and media at any time
...
...
...
911. pest and disease control


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## NYEric (Jun 22, 2011)

My list and prioritization are based on my growing conditions. A lot of plants, in a limited amount of space, in an apartment, growing in hyroponic or moist conditions with southern exposure. If I dont stop pests and disease rapidly i could lose a lot. Even things like how hard the water hits the plant has an effect because blooms get bumped and fall off. Fertilizer never stopped a mealy attack!


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## NeoNJ (Jun 22, 2011)

NYEric said:


> My list and prioritization are based on my growing conditions. A lot of plants, in a limited amount of space, in an apartment, growing in hyroponic or moist conditions with southern exposure. If I dont stop pests and disease rapidly i could lose a lot. Even things like how hard the water hits the plant has an effect because blooms get bumped and fall off. Fertilizer never stopped a mealy attack!



I'm always intriqued to learn about people who grow "alot of plants in a limited space, in an apartment in NYC"......

How do you handle growing Orchids there ......?


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jun 22, 2011)

A lot varies with the plants. For Vanda's, I'd put light as my number 1 priority. For paphs, I'd put medium as my #1. I've seen Vanda's growing just hanging in the air, and I've successfully grown and bloomed Vanda's in plastic pots with NZ sphagnum. But you're not going to do too well with Vanda's if you don't have good light. However, paphs in the wrong medium will quickly go downhill, even if everything else is fine.


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## goldenrose (Jun 22, 2011)

NeoNJ said:


> I'm always intriqued to learn about people who grow "alot of plants in a limited space, in an apartment in NYC"......
> How do you handle growing Orchids there ......?


you had to ask - http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1004&page=33



NYEric said:


> My list and prioritization are based on my growing conditions. A lot of plants, in a limited amount of space, in an apartment, growing in hyroponic or moist conditions with southern exposure. If I dont stop pests and disease rapidly i could lose a lot. Even things like how hard the water hits the plant has an effect because blooms get bumped and fall off. Fertilizer never stopped a mealy attack!


Good point Eric!


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## Jim Toomey (Jun 23, 2011)

Terry Root of the Orchid Zone was the one to make the observation about the 45 degree leaf angle. 
This is in regards to light levels, and not for all paphs obviously.

My paphs are very happy, and while their leaves are for the majority at a 45 degree angle, I concede that there is room for variability... for example, my strap leaf Lowii are not erect but they are still very happy and bloom like clockwork, thanks to a gifted breeder and excellent parents (Frank).

To put the comments in perspective, we were discussing what he looks for in his paphs, in his greenhouses. 

Terry's thoughts were that "you have to closely observe the plants and make decisions about your environment, this is the art of growing orchids. I like to see the leaves standing up at a 45 degree angle, not droopy or bleached out. Droopy means lack of light, bleached too much".

Again, this does not apply to all paphs, 
go and look at your paphs and see how many are erect and happy, if not, why not?

Lots of food for thought!


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## NYEric (Jun 23, 2011)

Jim Toomey said:


> ..see how many are erect and happy..


Jim! If I'm erect I'm happy, that's a no-brainer! :rollhappy:


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## Jim Toomey (Jun 23, 2011)

LOL, 
I thought you would rise to the occasion!:evil:


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## cnycharles (Jun 24, 2011)

though water was mentioned, I don't think that anyone has mentioned 'relatively clean water' also meaning not overly hard water


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## Rick (Jun 24, 2011)

I rate humidity up at the top, but it is closely inter-connected to temperature and light.

I see too many successes with a wide range of irrigation waters, and after appraising my own results with extensive use of RO water I would say that "pure" water would not rate high on my list. I think just about any water is good as long as it has more Ca/Mg than Na and K.

I would then look at nutrition, but at present I feel its safer not to fertilize at all then use a lot of "balanced" fertilizer.

Potting mixes rate even lower for me than nutrition, but fertilizer and potting mix influence each other so still has to be considered.


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## NeoNJ (Jul 10, 2011)

Erect and happy? I have a Paph. Lowii with 18-inch leaves and they are not erect at 45-degrees. They are "floppy". 

So, what's the bottom line here, . . . . do I fertilize or don't I fertilize?
I'm really getting alot of conflicting information here about fertilizing
Paphs. One book says "fertilize at your own risk". Huh?

So, who fertilizes their Paphs? and what are the results ?
Do I fertilize my Brachy's or not?
How about my species?

I'm almost afraid to ever fertilize my Paphs for fear of Killing all of them !


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## paphioboy (Jul 10, 2011)

I find paphs, especially multis can be heavy feeders. I use Osmocote and supplemented with solid organic fertiliser (once every few months).


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## Jim Toomey (Jul 10, 2011)

Your Lowii is fine, the strap leaf paphs will hang down as they get longer, just as they do in nature.
Read Rays site on "A Primer for Plant Nutrition".
http://www.firstrays.com/nutrition.htm
It's a five part article written by Dr. Bill Argo.
This will set you on the right track.
Ray has a section that helps determine how much to dilute your fertilizer:
http://www.firstrays.com/fertcalc.htm
I have used MSU fertilizer at 125 Parts Per Million Nitrogen for at least five years now. You can successfully grow orchids with a wide varity of fertilizers.

At 125 ppm nitrogen, you do not have to worry at all about burning or over fertilizing your plants. It is a mild rate, and very effective for a wide range of orchids and plants as well.


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## Jim Toomey (Jul 10, 2011)

One of the most important things you should do is get your water tested at a lab, I used MMI: http://www.mmilabs.com/water-quality.html
It was about $50 for a complete analysis.
I know it sounds expensive, but considering how much all of your orchids are worth, it is worth it so you can feed them correctly.

Once you have your results, then you can match up a fertilizer to your water.

I emailed my results to Dr. Bill Argo and he was very helpful, my water is low in magnesium so he recommended the South Florida Formula. That gave me a better ratio of magnesium. He recommended that I also supplement with magnesium sulphate (Epsom salts).
Now when I water/fertilize I know what I am supplying and don't have any worries about burning my plants. 

I hope this is helpful.


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## koshki (Jul 10, 2011)

I'm a relative newbie to growing orchids, and I am in no position to rank order your parameters...I'm still struggling to get a handle on all those elements.

But I would add one item for consideration: attentiveness. How much time and attention do you devote to your orchids? For me, this is a very important element. When I don't have the time to pay attention to them, they suffer, without question.

I just noticed Jim Toomey's tag line...exactly what I'm talking about!


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## NeoNJ (Jul 10, 2011)

koshki said:


> I'm a relative newbie to growing orchids, and I am in no position to rank order your parameters...I'm still struggling to get a handle on all those elements.
> 
> But I would add one item for consideration: attentiveness. How much time and attention do you devote to your orchids? For me, this is a very important element. When I don't have the time to pay attention to them, they suffer, without question.
> 
> I just noticed Jim Toomey's tag line...exactly what I'm talking about!



Well, speaking for myself, and perhaps other growers or hobbyists, I would say I definitely put in the time and "attentiveness" to my orchid plants - afterall, I invested alot of time and MONEY in acquiring them, so will definitely devote various periods of time on a daily basis to checking them.
Yes, if you ignore them, they will die.


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## goldenrose (Jul 13, 2011)

labskaus said:


> 1. an observative eye .....
> ......





koshki said:


> .... But I would add one item for consideration: attentiveness. How much time and attention do you devote to your orchids? For me, this is a very important element. When I don't have the time to pay attention to them, they suffer, without question...


To me these are one & the same - an excellent point!



NeoNJ said:


> ....So, what's the bottom line here, . . . . do I fertilize or don't I fertilize?
> I'm really getting alot of conflicting information here about fertilizing
> Paphs. One book says "fertilize at your own risk". Huh?
> 
> ...


What a shame! Yes fertilize, Paphs, Brachys, species, everything! Basic safe rule of thumb - weakly (1/4 strength) weekly. I think most of us probably have some diluted amount at every watering, the big thing is completely flush the pot with fresh, clean water every 3-4 waterings. Some are light feeders, which this amount is, you'll get to know which are heavier feeders - just ask us!  Brachys are sensitive to salt accumulation, important to flush, also I don't think they're as difficult as what we're led to believe.
Any book that says fertilize at your own risk - I would burn, IMO they don't know enough about the subject matter to be writing a book!


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jul 13, 2011)

I fertilize my brachy's the same way, and in the same amounts, that I fertilize my barbata paphs. Never a problem.


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## Rick (Jul 13, 2011)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> I fertilize my brachy's the same way, and in the same amounts, that I fertilize my barbata paphs. Never a problem.




The pics of niveum and leucochilum growing on limestone cliffs just above the ocean should give anyone pause to consider the generalized notion that brachy's are intolerant of salts. Having friends living near the beach in LA and watching their cars rot away from the ocean breezes tells you that niveum, leuco, and exul (although not a brachy) are not sensitive to salts. But as I've been harping in several threads, the ratio of salts is critical for tolerance (more Ca/Mg less K/Na). 

Bellatulum and concolor are not found anywhere near oceans, so can't vouch for them.


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## NeoNJ (Jul 14, 2011)

Whew. Thanks. I feel better now .... but describe "weaky weekly" ? Hmmmm. How about 1/4 tsp. per Gallon of water ?????


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## emydura (Jul 14, 2011)

Jim Toomey said:


> One of the most important things you should do is get your water tested at a lab, I used MMI: http://www.mmilabs.com/water-quality.html
> It was about $50 for a complete analysis.
> I know it sounds expensive, but considering how much all of your orchids are worth, it is worth it so you can feed them correctly.
> 
> ...



The chemical makeup of your water may already be freely available. I can lookup the water chemistry of Canberra's water at the water providers website. 

David


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## Jim Toomey (Jul 14, 2011)

NeoNJ,
What is the NPK (3 numbers on the front of the container) of your fertilizer?
Enter the numbers in the calculator at First Rays site ( I posted the link in message #32 above). That will do the math for you and then you dilute like it says and you will be set. No worries at all.


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## Rick (Jul 14, 2011)

emydura said:


> The chemical makeup of your water may already be freely available. I can lookup the water chemistry of Canberra's water at the water providers website.
> 
> David



Yes if you are on a municipal water supply in the US, it should be easy to get a water report.

I'm on a well, but work in a water lab so do some of my own analysis (and have discount access to contract anaytical labs).

I think you could also be able to find a County Ag Extension office almost everywhere else that would probably be able to run results cheap.


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## NeoNJ (Jul 14, 2011)

Jim Toomey said:


> NeoNJ,
> What is the NPK (3 numbers on the front of the container) of your fertilizer?
> Enter the numbers in the calculator at First Rays site ( I posted the link in message #32 above). That will do the math for you and then you dilute like it says and you will be set. No worries at all.



Sorry - but the Calculator on "RAYS" doesn't work ....
I tried it before.


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## NeoNJ (Jul 14, 2011)

goldenrose said:


> To me these are one & the same - an excellent point!
> 
> 
> What a shame! Yes fertilize, Paphs, Brachys, species, everything! Basic safe rule of thumb - weakly (1/4 strength) weekly. I think most of us probably have some diluted amount at every watering, the big thing is completely flush the pot with fresh, clean water every 3-4 waterings. Some are light feeders, which this amount is, you'll get to know which are heavier feeders - just ask us!  Brachys are sensitive to salt accumulation, important to flush, also I don't think they're as difficult as what we're led to believe.
> Any book that says fertilize at your own risk - I would burn, IMO they don't know enough about the subject matter to be writing a book!



Well, the book I have also said Paphs really don't need fertilizer, so go figure !

Same holds true for LIGHT requirements. I don't buy the "no direct sun" arguement. I have all my Paphs in sunlight at some point during the day, including all of my Brachy's.......


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## Ernie (Jul 14, 2011)

NeoNJ said:


> Sorry - but the Calculator on "RAYS" doesn't work ....
> I tried it before.



Seems fine to me? It's at http://www.firstrays.com/fertcalc.htm .


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## NeoNJ (Jul 14, 2011)

Jim Toomey said:


> NeoNJ,
> What is the NPK (3 numbers on the front of the container) of your fertilizer?
> Enter the numbers in the calculator at First Rays site ( I posted the link in message #32 above). That will do the math for you and then you dilute like it says and you will be set. No worries at all.



Ok, I got it. I entered the NPK numbers, and I got the results, based on what I ADD to one Gallon of Water - it doesn't mention anything about "how to dilute".

30-10-10 is what I use (Grow More) and I use 1/4 tsp. per Gallon of Distilled Water.

I rarely if ever use municipal water for any of my orchids.


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## Jim Toomey (Jul 15, 2011)

OK, I added in your 30-10-10 into the Nitrogen management calculator ( at the very bottom of that page).
Set the target ppm N to 125 (which is what is recommended) it says to add 0.32 teaspoons to one gallon of water.

I am not sure where you are in the world, so if you are using liters then add 0.41 milliliters per liter.

That is your ready to use solution that you apply to your plants.

I am very curious as to the name of the book and who wrote it... please let us know.

One of the greatest facets of this board is that if someone says or quotes something that is wrong or if something is a bad idea, they/we are quick to try to help set things straight because we want everyone to be successful in growing.

I sure hope this helps,


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## Ozpaph (Jul 15, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Seems fine to me? It's at http://www.firstrays.com/fertcalc.htm .



Thanks Ernie and Ray for the formula!


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## quietaustralian (Jul 17, 2011)

Rick said:


> The pics of niveum and leucochilum growing on limestone cliffs just above the ocean should give anyone pause to consider the generalized notion that brachy's are intolerant of salts. Having friends living near the beach in LA and watching their cars rot away from the ocean breezes tells you that niveum, leuco, and exul (although not a brachy) are not sensitive to salts. But as I've been harping in several threads, the ratio of salts is critical for tolerance (more Ca/Mg less K/Na).
> 
> Bellatulum and concolor are not found anywhere near oceans, so can't vouch for them.



P concolor has such a huge natural range that I can't comment on other Asian populations but concolor can be found on islands off the coast of Việt Nam and China.

I have only seen the plants on the western side of the island at about 20m + above the ocean. The plants may occur on the seaward side of these small islands but I haven't seen any.

Regards, Mick


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## quietaustralian (Jul 17, 2011)

Jim Toomey said:


> What is the most important parameters in your culture?
> 
> I would rank the list of most important list of culture parameters as:
> 
> ...



My answer to this question would be, it depends. It depends on the species and the mix of parameters discussed. What is higher in importance for one species may be less for another. Some plants seem less able to thrive if even one of their requirements isn't met.

Some growers have success growing equatorial species in cold conditions, others succeed with less than optimal humidity levels.

Some add huge amounts of calcium to all their slippers including those that are epiphytic without harming the plants.

Water quality may be poor but if the plants get a regular flush with better quality water or rainfall, there may not be a problem.

I could go on with more ifs, buts and maybes but I think it comes down to the species and the total of a particular growing environment.

That being said, fertiliser or added fertiliser isn't something I'd rate highly. With the right mix, I believe the plants nutritional needs can be met.

On the matter of air flow and exchange:

I have plants in two different countries. In Việt Nam the plants are grown under shade cloth with openings on two sides of the structure, in Australia the plants are grown in an enclosed greenhouse. 

To maintain reasonable temps in the greenhouse I'm unable to get anywhere near the air exchange possible in Việt Nam ( This should now be fixed with earth heat exchange system). 

Until recently (given that all parameters were the same other than air) the difference in the two systems is that the plants in Australia were many times more likely to get bacterial or fugal infections.

Regards, Mick


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## NeoNJ (Jul 17, 2011)

Jim Toomey said:


> OK, I added in your 30-10-10 into the Nitrogen management calculator ( at the very bottom of that page).
> Set the target ppm N to 125 (which is what is recommended) it says to add 0.32 teaspoons to one gallon of water.
> 
> I am not sure where you are in the world, so if you are using liters then add 0.41 milliliters per liter.
> ...



Good. So my adding 1/4 tsp. to one Gallon of water is pretty much on track.

I am in New Jersey ! USA !


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## Jim Toomey (Jul 17, 2011)

Hi NeoNJ!
Glad to see you updated the location info, it is very cool to see where in the world everyone is living and growing their plants.

You are right on track with the 1/4 teaspoon.
I use about 1/4 teaspoon as well and it has worked very well for my orchids.

Exceptionally well when I supplement with Epsom salts that was recommended by Dr. Argo. Making up for the lack of magnesium in my water made a noticeable difference in my orchids leaf growth and root growth.


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## Rick (Jul 17, 2011)

quietaustralian said:


> P concolor has such a huge natural range that I can't comment on other Asian populations but concolor can be found on islands off the coast of Việt Nam and China.
> 
> I have only seen the plants on the western side of the island at about 20m + above the ocean. The plants may occur on the seaward side of these small islands but I haven't seen any.
> 
> Regards, Mick



Then that would suggest that 4 of the 6 or so brachy species can be found close enough to the ocean to be within range of salty air currents and therefore should not be "sensitive to salts".

In conversations with people outside of my profession, there is often confusion as what is salt versus other minerals and nutrients. Some people only consider NaCl as salt. But salt includes a soup of all the major ions Ca, Mg, Na, K, Cl, SO4, and HCO3. K is noted among horticulturists as an inorganic "nutrient" . Also (as noted by Roth in an old thread) these ions don't exist as stand alone elements in the real world. The cations are always balanced by anions in aqueous solutions. Pure Na and K are refined explosive materials and must be kept away from water.

Ocean water is about 2/3 NaCl, but the next most common ion is Mg followed by Ca before K. Plenty of extra Cl, SO4 and HCO3 (bicarbonate) anions balance the cations in solution. The non NaCl 1/3 of sea water ions is critical for the metabolism of saltwater organism. If you put salt water fish in solutions of NaCl only without the other salts, they will die in less than 2 days.

All life (plant and animal) originated in the oceans, so maybe its not so surprising that the mineral composition and metabolic requirements of many plants and animals are really not that different from one another. 

The mineral composition of kelp (seaweed) is pretty close to orchids.


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## Jim Toomey (Jul 17, 2011)

I met Alfred at a paph symposium in Washington DC a few years back, here are some notes I took about our conversation... any mistakes are my memory's fault .

I just cut and pasted from my notes.

Alfred Manrique on PK Phrag seedling culture:

1. Pro-tekt 1 teaspoon per gallon weekly for at least 1 month.

2. Use RO water

3. Feed with MSU 50 PPM Nitrogen

4. Keep roots moist, do not let dry out

5. Flush with plain water every two weeks

6. Inoculaid (now called Quantum Growth) every month 1/2 ounce per gallon monthly

7. Add a top dressing of ground seashells every two months

8. Range of temp 86 to 52 degrees

9. 80% humidity year round

10. Calcium nitrate and magnesium sulfate monthly

11. Seaweed extract 2x year (nitrozyme)

12. Mix:
Crushed stones 36%
Fine fir bark 36%
Charcoal 12%
Coarse perlite	12%
Finely ground oyster shell	4%

Note - minimum 20% of the stone should be should be limestone

13. Add sphagnum to top to increase leaf level humidity 

14. Will flower anytime temp is between 64 and 79 degrees

That about sums up our conversation on PK seedling culture...


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## Rick (Jul 17, 2011)

Jim Toomey said:


> I met Alfred at a paph symposium in Washington DC a few years back, here are some notes I took about our conversation... any mistakes are my memory's fault .
> 
> I just cut and pasted from my notes.
> 
> ...



What's the rate of calcium nitrate and magnesium sulfate?


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## Jim Toomey (Jul 17, 2011)

Hi Rick,
Alfred measures his fertilizer and supplements according to electrical conductivity and PPM.
I did not quite understand his accent on some parts (it was also very noisy in there) and I am not real familiar with using EC, I was scribbling my notes down as fast as possible... I emailed him later for USA rates for ProTekt and the amount of MSU in PPM N, so those are added in my notes above.
From his website he writes:
"formula and calcium nitrate or magnesium sulfate 
dissolved in water in a concentration of up to 300 ppm". 
Does this help?


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## Rick (Jul 17, 2011)

Ok This answered some of the assumptions from the post on PK in the basket culture thread

With MSU applied at 50 ppm N (which is a 12 6 13 for pure water), and the earlier statement that he's feeding calcium nitrate and or epsom at up to 300 ppm each, then you would get something like:

N = 100ppm
PO4 = 20
K = 50
Ca = 73
Mg = 60ppm

The temporary weekly Protekt thing is kind of confusing, but Proteckt is only 3% K, and I think the normal dose rate is 1/2tsp/gal so I'm guestimating maybe another 50 ppm per dose from that.

The potting media is heavy on inorganic, heavy in Ca materials that won't retain the K so tends to fit into the notion to avoid too much K relative to Ca and Mg.


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## Jim Toomey (Jul 17, 2011)

Hi Rick,
Here is the pertinent part of Alfredo's email, it might help you see what he is thinking.
We were discussing what he does to ensure success with newly deflasked Phrag Kovachii.
Many people had/have trouble with the seedlings dying and there was a very low survival rate here in the USA.

"To keep the flasks doing well you have to keep them in room with a temperature around 75ºF
I use pro tekt at the beginning of the hardening of the seedings after outflasking. The rate is 1/4 tee spoon per a quarter of pure water, in the first watering 
(Spraying) and then weekly for at least one month , you will see how the leaves turned to be more coriaceus, signal that the seedling developed a cuticule.The most important issue is having the water with low electric conductivity, RO systems work perfect. Do not forget that the seedlings in the flasks are growing in a high nutricious " soup" you have to feed lightly the outflasked seedlings in every watering or moisting during the first month , at least. Flush the roots with plain water every two weeks to avoid leaf tip burning , to remove the salts accumulations in the soil mixture. Inoculaid applied every month at half onze for a Galon o water makes magic to your plants, remember that in the winter months as metabolism slow down plants need less feedings.
Try to get the MSU feeding orchid formula and the ground sea shells ( that is the easy part).
There is an article in the Orchids Digest Vol 72-3 Jul Aug Sept 2008 that will be of help."

Pretty good info!


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## Rick (Jul 18, 2011)

OK the Pro teckt is just a short term hardening program, and probably more interested in the silicates rather than the potassium. Apparently not a long term use product.

The beneficial bacteria thing is interesting. I tried a product of mycorrhizae fungi and beneficial bacteria, with some mixed results. Non really bad, but a fair amount of no significant help.

I did have a compot of henryanum seedlings that had stalled for about a year that "came to life" after receiving the mycorr product that I was using. Shortly thereafter I added sand to the mix and shortly after that started the epsom salt spiking, followed by the sphag basket system. I have about a 1/2 dozen left that are now mostly 2 or 3 growth plants with one presently in spike (the one I put in a sphag/basket).

I also use a kelp extract (has almost no NPK, Ca or Mg) for voodoo magic.

I recently came across a cal/mag product that is made of lignosulfonates of Ca and Mg. Lignins are the durable organic molecules in tree bark and dead leaves. This product is sold by a turf grass /ornamental tree specialist, and is purported to get the ca and mg into plants more readily and provide stronger cell walls from the lignins. I have not purchased any at this point.


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## Jim Toomey (Jul 18, 2011)

When Alfredo mentioned Quantum Growth at the symposium I was curious because he had mentioned it in passing. So I asked him about it later on after his presentation, he said that it works great and it made a real difference in the survival and growth of his Phrags.
So I looked them up on the net, I read up on the white papers and found it compelling enough to try it. I've used the Quantum Growth since then on all of my orchids and plants and it really seems to make a difference. 
Here is the link:
http://www.growquantum.com

What is the link/info on the cal/mag product?


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## Jim Toomey (Jul 18, 2011)

Rick sent you a PM.


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## Rick (Jul 20, 2011)

PM or email?

I'm on the road and can't seem to access my email, but there's nothing in my PM box from you?


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