# Phrag Inca Embers...time to DIMP?



## Cinderella (Jun 1, 2007)

I have had this Phrag seedling for about a year and have actually posted about it before. It continues to have leaf dieback no matter what I do....I don't have an RO system but I started to water it with only rainwater/distilled water and that didn't even help. It gets those brown spots on the leaves, which grow down. I have cut every single leaf and cinnamoned them.

I even contacted the vendor (Windy Hill) to ask for suggestions. She was baffled. I soaked the whole pot (s/h) in distilled water in case there was salt in the pellets. No help. Do I just dump the thing? None of my other paphs or phrags brown like this.


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## gonewild (Jun 1, 2007)

You may not be watering it often enough. Leaf tip die back is an indication of lack of moisture.


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## Candace (Jun 1, 2007)

Listen to Lance, he's a smart cookie:> Have you tried sitting it in some R.O. water and not letting it dry out?


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## suss16 (Jun 1, 2007)

I ran into a similar problem (now corrected) when I started watering with R/O water. Chuck Acker correctly diagnosed that my plants were not getting enough nutrition and the R/O only routine could hurt my plants. I since added a little fert to routine waterings and fert heavier weekly to monthly depending on the time of year. And I do keep them moist to wet at all times.


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## NYEric (Jun 1, 2007)

If there is a fungal problem-treat w/ Dragon's Blood. Add some organic media, coconut chips, sphagnum, etc to hold more moisture. It's hard to diagnose w/out a photo.


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## Cinderella (Jun 1, 2007)

I only sat it in the distilled water for a couple of hours. I do fertilize it regularly but I will try growing it much more wet.


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## gonewild (Jun 1, 2007)

Cinderella said:


> I only sat it in the distilled water for a couple of hours. I do fertilize it regularly but I will try growing it much more wet.



There in lies your problem.
You fertilize regularly which means you add "salt" regularly. Without adequate (a lot) of water the salts build up and will damage the leaves. Your plants need the regular fertilizer and so it becomes even more important to water more frequently.

Remember as the water in the media dries out the salt concentration of the remaining water becomes higher. This is the reason to keep the media moist.


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## Candace (Jun 1, 2007)

> Add some organic media, coconut chips, sphagnum, etc to hold more moisture.



I think you need to change your by-line to Mr. Organic.


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## Cinderella (Jun 1, 2007)

Wouldn't that be effecting all of my other paphs and phrags then? I treat them all the same. 

Candace....was Ray's recommendation for using MSU in s/h to fertilize weakly with every watering? I still like to flush my pots, however.


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## gonewild (Jun 1, 2007)

Cinderella said:


> Wouldn't that be effecting all of my other paphs and phrags then? I treat them all the same.




Basically the answer is no. Each individual plant has it's own genetic make up. One individual may be more sensitive than all the others. Just like one person can't tolerate the sun while others can be in it all day.

On the other hand your other plants may be border line with the same problem but not presenting the symptoms.


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## Candace (Jun 1, 2007)

I've upped my fertilizer dosage quite a bit since Lance convinced me I was under fertilizing. I've not noticed any leaf tip burn. I wouldn't mess with too many variables at once, though, if your other phrags are o.k. If you want to experiment with watering this one plant a little more and maybe sitting it in R.O water to see how it does, great. But, once you start changing too many things at once, say both upping the fertilizer and watering more, you don't know which one made any changes(positive or negative) in your plants. 

Maybe your plants do need more fertilizer, but it's hard to say without knowing what you're using and at what dosage.


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## Heather (Jun 1, 2007)

I have to say, I just couldn't grow my Phrags in S/H. Either I am not an attentive enough mother (likely) or I wasn't watering enough (2x a week, once with fert. once without) or I wasn't flushing fully enough. I don't know, but 4 moves and a huge amount of changes in my life last year and a terrible bout with thrips last summer, coupled with the fact that I just got sick of the fact that besseae hybrids sort of all look the same (sorry Eric), I got burnt out. 

So, I currently am down to one besseae (the peach one) and my 4N Don Wimber (which may be up for sale soon too....) and you know, I'm really happy! I'm less annoyed with my collection and I'm starting to get excited about something new that I might be able to grow a little better than the Phrags. 

FWIW, I got rid of all my seedlings this week too, they also hated S/H and grew no roots. 

My multiflorals that are mature or nearly so seem to be doing better in S/H but I'm starting to think (much to my disgust) of potting them back into a more traditional mix. I really love the idea of S/H though, and the mess is so much less than dealing with bark/etc. 

Just my experience. YMMV!


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## practicallyostensible (Jun 1, 2007)

Heather said:


> I have to say, I just couldn't grow my Phrags in S/H. Either I am not an attentive enough mother (likely) or I wasn't watering enough (2x a week, once with fert. once without) or I wasn't flushing fully enough. I don't know, but 4 moves and a huge amount of changes in my life last year and a terrible bout with thrips last summer, coupled with the fact that I just got sick of the fact that besseae hybrids sort of all look the same (sorry Eric), I got burnt out.
> 
> So, I currently am down to one besseae (the peach one) and my 4N Don Wimber (which may be up for sale soon too....) and you know, I'm really happy! I'm less annoyed with my collection and I'm starting to get excited about something new that I might be able to grow a little better than the Phrags.
> 
> ...



I am at this point myself. I love the idea of s/h but I can't keep up with flushing out the pots etc. I just bought a bag of bark... argh.


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## SlipperFan (Jun 1, 2007)

I think I've posted this before, but I've not have good long-term results with most slippers in S/H. I still have a few, both Phrags and Paphs, in it, but most of my slippers are in a diatomite/CHC/sponge rock mix. So far, so good.

A few of my other orchids have been doing very well in S/H, some I'd not have thought would: Psychopsis, Epi. ilense, and a couple of moisture-loving Dendrobiums.


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## Cinderella (Jun 1, 2007)

Candace?


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## gonewild (Jun 1, 2007)

Cinderella, 
What type of media are you growing your plants in now?
How often to you water?
How often can you water?
Do you have time to water more often?
Do you enjoy spending time with your plants and watering them or do you just want them to bloom and be pretty with as little effort as possible?


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## Heather (Jun 1, 2007)

Candace - thanks for your nice note. Care to post it publicly?  

Jury's still out on the mature paphs but suffice it to say the roots have not filled the pots in the last year. Based on the Phrags and seedlings I should, perhaps, revert. 

Back to the days of drilling holes in aircones? 
What is people's preferred Paph medium at this date? 
Sigh....(argh!)


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## kentuckiense (Jun 1, 2007)

bark4lyfe


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## Candace (Jun 1, 2007)

> Candace?



Yeeess?:evil: Actually, Heather can you copy and paste the P.M. I sent you? I don't remember exactly what I said, but I stand by it...unless I was tired. Or drunk. Or mad. And I don't think I was any of those.


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## NYEric (Jun 2, 2007)

Heather said:


> ..coupled with the fact that I just got sick of the fact that besseae hybrids sort of all look the same (sorry Eric)


You just said that to make my head catch on fire, didn't you? 



Heather said:


> So, I currently am down to one besseae (the peach one)


Where's the flavum!?!



Heather said:


> and you know, I'm really happy! I'm less annoyed with my collection and I'm starting to get excited about something new that I might be able to grow a little better than the Phrags.


Something new? I never would have guessed! oke: 



Heather said:


> ..I'm starting to think (much to my disgust) of potting them back into a more traditional mix. I really love the idea of S/H though, and the mess is so much less than dealing with bark/etc.


When's the last time someone dealing w/ orchids in their natural habitat didn't come back dirty w/ soil and bark?


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## Heather (Jun 2, 2007)

Dude, you gotta learn to end your quotes. oke:

Yes, I was trying to catch your head on fire and Blake got the flavum. Wussy plants. They are all so darn weak!


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## Cinderella (Jun 2, 2007)

Lance I grow 90% of my orchids in s/h. It has mostly worked for me because of my propensity for overwatering and less than stellar conditions. I water my paphs and phrags twice a week at this time of year, in the Winter a little less but still 2x a week ( in other words, maybe every 3-4 days in summer and every 5-6 days in winter).

I have 2 little kids so I don't have that much free time. I love to spend time with my plants but am also trying to get a garden growing outside this summer at our new house. So....I make time for watering about 4-5 days a week and just water what needs it. Maybe this is a lame system? I have about 60 orchids, a small collection.


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## gonewild (Jun 2, 2007)

Cinderella said:


> So....I make time for watering about 4-5 days a week and just water what needs it. Maybe this is a lame system? I have about 60 orchids, a small collection.



No system in lame if it works.
Since you have your plants in s/h you can water more often without harm. That is a good thing.
For the Phrag you are having problems with start watering it every time you water. Even everyday if you can. Include drenching the foliage if you don't already. If your media is an open inorganic type as it usually is for s/h then you can't over water a Phrag.

How often do you fertilize and at what strength do you mix your fertilizer?


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## Candace (Jun 2, 2007)

Cinderella, what I wrote in my P.M. to Heather went along these lines...

I don't know for sure why, but from my forum experiences those who grow indoors are the ones who have problems with s/h. Those who grow in greenhouses LOVE it. People who have indoor growing set ups seem to either like it or don't. I don't know if it's the increased light and temp. controls that greenhouse growers have that indoor folks don't... But, it's a bit trickier to grow indoors anyway, so.... But, I've just noticed over the years that anyone writing in to the forums whose have problems with s/h are growing inside. This may be a good new topic to discuss actually, as there are different variables to why this is the case.


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## gonewild (Jun 2, 2007)

Candace said:


> Cinderella, what I wrote in my P.M. to Heather went along these lines...
> 
> I don't know for sure why, but from my forum experiences those who grow indoors are the ones who have problems with s/h. Those who grow in greenhouses LOVE it. People who have indoor growing set ups seem to either like it or don't. I don't know if it's the increased light and temp. controls that greenhouse growers have that indoor folks don't... But, it's a bit trickier to grow indoors anyway, so.... But, I've just noticed over the years that anyone writing in to the forums whose have problems with s/h are growing inside. This may be a good new topic to discuss actually, as there are different variables to why this is the case.



The major variable is water. People who grow indoors tend to water less both in quantity and frequency. Greenhouse or outdoor growers generally water with a hose and apply lots of water with less effort. I personally don't like the idea of relying on the s/h pot reservoir to be the only water source for the plants for a daily basis. Leca makes a fine media in normal pots as long as it is watered frequently.


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## NYEric (Jun 2, 2007)

2 kids mean future waterers!


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## Cinderella (Jun 3, 2007)

So far the little one has been a bud picker. She picked a bud off of my phal pulchra and also a blooming (freebie) phal from Big Leaf.

So I water with about 3/4 tsp of MSU fertilizer say about twice, 4 days apart and then the third time would be flushing with no fert. This is approximate.

Candace I think your statement is very true, people who grow inside have more trouble anyway. Lots of inside growers don't have RO systems, so the quality of water is poorer, and of course, less light.


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## Candace (Jun 3, 2007)

I have two children, as well, Cinderella. I started in orchids when they were probably the same age as yours now. My daughter is now almost 14 and my son almost 12. They never touched my orchids, but I was lucky enough to always have a big enough home to seperate the plants from them. And when I got my greenhouse it was even easier to make sure they didn't get into trouble. It does get better, really:> They grow up so fast an occasional infraction, is just something to put down in the "will laugh" at this someday category. I keep hoping one of them will start to show some interest in orchids as they get older. So far, not. I still don't like them in my greenhouse, even at this age. I've got mouse/rat traps down that could really hurt if snapped on a finger or toe. So, I'm still the sole waterer of the household.


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## Cinderella (Jun 3, 2007)

Candace how long have you had your g/h and what are it's dimensions?

BTW, this Phrag problem is probably more about water quality or something than about s/h...it is the only slipper with this problem and they are almost all in s/h except the Parvis which now I come to find out that Candace grows her Parvis in s/h...


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## Candace (Jun 3, 2007)

My greenhouse is 12' x 18'. Large enough to be a lot of work, yet too small for all the plants I really want to have! We are planning on buying acreage when our youngest goes off to college in 5-6 years. I will be building one that's commercial sized, then. I think I had it intalled about 8 years ago? Maybe even closer to 9. It was one of the first things I did when we built our house and moved into it. 

It took me about 3-4 years to fill it up completely and wish I'd have built bigger. But, we only have .38 acre in a subdivision and if I'd built it any larger than it might not be a plus for resale.


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## Cinderella (Jun 3, 2007)

So how many plants can you have in a 12x18 g/h? Of course that is a relative question so how many do you have? At last count?


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## Candace (Jun 3, 2007)

I've never counted them all except I did a quickie count of paphs and phrags the other day about 150 paphs and 150 phrags. If I had to guess, I'd say I've probably got maybe 500-600 plants? After paphs and phrags I have mostly cattleyas. Luckily, my greenhouse has a 10ft tall peak so I can hang lots of plants in and around the aisles so I can make use of the space well. I also have probably 50 plants inside growing in windows and a greenhouse window in my kitchen.


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## NYEric (Jun 4, 2007)

Addicted!


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