# Phrag. (Fritz Schomburg x Waunakee Sunset 4N) plus genetics quizz!



## Drorchid (Sep 13, 2013)

One of our next generation Phrag. kovachii hybrids bloomed. We crossed our tetraploid Phrag. Wanuakee Sunset 'Red Mimosa' to a diploid Phrag. Fritz Schomburg 'Pink Flamingo'.

Here is a picture of Phrag. Waunakee Sunset 'Red Mimosa'





Here is the hybrid (Fritz Schomburg x Waunakee Sunset)









next to a regular Phrag. besseae. Notice the size has really decreased, and is almost as big as a besseae! I don't know if this hybrid is really an improvement over either parent, but it has interesting colors, it almost looks like a "mini" Fritz Schomburg. Also keep in mind this was a first bloom seedling on a very small plant (it was already blooming in the compot), so next time the flower will improve in size and in shape.






So here is my genetics question/quizz who can tell me what the percentage of the species besseae, fischeri and kovachii are in the background of this hybrid? Keep in mind that the Wauanakee Sunset is a tetraploid so has twice the number of chromosomes compared to the Fritz Schomburg.

Robert


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## NYEric (Sep 13, 2013)

Waunakee Sunset (3/4 besseae) x Fritz Schomburg (1/2 besseae) = add in for Tetraploid
besseae - 62.5%
fischeri - 25.0%
kovachii - 12.5%
Yay besseae hybrids! Do I win one of these!?


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## Drorchid (Sep 13, 2013)

NYEric said:


> Waunakee Sunset (3/4 besseae) x Fritz Schomburg (1/2 besseae) = add in for Tetraploid
> besseae - 62.5%
> fischeri - 25.0%
> kovachii - 12.5%
> Yay besseae hybrids! Do I win one of these!?




no, wrong answer... how did you get to those numbers?

Robert


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## NYEric (Sep 13, 2013)

I did the normal breakdown then doubled the influence of the tetraploid numbers. I am no geneticist; just an appreciator of Phrags!


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## Drorchid (Sep 13, 2013)

NYEric said:


> I did the normal breakdown then doubled the influence of the tetraploid numbers. I am no geneticist; just an appreciator of Phrags!



You are on the right track...but somehow your math is wrong, I will wait for more answers before I reveal the right ones :wink:

Robert


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## NYEric (Sep 13, 2013)

What do I win for trying?!


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## Drorchid (Sep 13, 2013)

NYEric said:


> What do I win for trying?!



If your answer is correct, praise and hand clapping:
:clap::clap::clap::clap:

Robert


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## NYEric (Sep 13, 2013)

Ok.


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## TyroneGenade (Sep 13, 2013)

I don't care much for ratios, this flower is clearly mostly bessae for shape and size. Pity it didn't get the color as well oke:

I hope there are some kovachii-heavy plants in the mix.


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## Erythrone (Sep 13, 2013)

besseae	67%
kovachii	16,70%
fischeri	16,70%


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## Drorchid (Sep 13, 2013)

Erythrone said:


> besseae	67%
> kovachii	16,70%
> fischeri	16,70%



:clap::clap::clap::clap:

You got it! You must be genetics wizard! 

Robert


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## Secundino (Sep 13, 2013)

Hmmm, the more _kovachii_-hybrids I see, the more I think '_kovachii_ is no good!'. But bess is really nice, terrific colour!


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## mrhappyrotter (Sep 13, 2013)

Secundino said:


> Hmmm, the more _kovachii_-hybrids I see, the more I think '_kovachii_ is no good!'. But bess is really nice, terrific colour!



Right now, I think the best of them is Eumelia Arias. Colorful, large, fragrant and easy to grow (at least mine is).

I'm sort of on the fence about kovachii hybrids in general. Flower size isn't everything. The hybrids tend to be bland in color for my taste, and the petals/sepals tend to twist and distort in suboptimal ways.

There are a few select clones of various hybrids that really outshine the rest by miles, but overall, a bit meh. The only wow factor is flower size. I'm still holding out hope that eventually we'll end up with vibrant reds and oranges, I can forgive flower shape & presentation if the color is there.

Anyway, for what it is, this flower is cute. Not exactly what I was hoping for and expecting when I clicked, but a small plant with a relatively large flower is a good thing. And the color, while pale, is interesting. The petals aren't too bad, especially if this is a photo of the bloom after it's been open for awhile. It is a bit deformed, but as Robert pointed out, it's a first bloom on a very young plant, so it's only going to get better from here on out.


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## Erythrone (Sep 13, 2013)

Drorchid said:


> :clap::clap::clap::clap:
> 
> You got it! You must be genetics wizard!
> 
> Robert




:rollhappy::rollhappy:


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## SlipperFan (Sep 13, 2013)

I like this flower, also. The shape is uncommon, but quite symmetrical and attractive, at least to me. I like the color, also.


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## Erythrone (Sep 13, 2013)

well... I must say I am in love with WS 'Red Mimosa' but not with its daughter.


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## Ray (Sep 14, 2013)

Seems to me that any guess is going to assume that the genetics work in perfect fractions, but they may not.

For example if I have a plant that is 50/50 kovachii/besseae, and cross it back to besseae, it is as likely that a single allele will be kovachii/besseae as besseae/besseae, isn't it?

So, a single plant from that cross, while in "average terms" might be 1/3 kovachii, 2/3 besseae, could actually be anywhere from 50/50, to 100% besseae.


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## Secundino (Sep 15, 2013)

In theory; but the probability that all alleles will behave the same way in a given plant is very low.


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## 2Toned (Sep 17, 2013)

Erythrone said:


> well... I must say I am in love with WS 'Red Mimosa' but not with its daughter.



+1


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## goldenrose (Sep 17, 2013)

not what I expected.


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## NYEric (Sep 17, 2013)

I like the baby. It looks like a miniature Graem Jones!


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## labskaus (Sep 19, 2013)

Erythrone said:


> besseae	67%
> kovachii	16,70%
> fischeri	16,70%



That'll be 100,40%. I know I'm a pea counter.

As of your own counting, besseae has 2n=24, fischeri 2n=30, kovachii 2n=32

The Barbara LeAnn would have a 2n of 27, right? 4n would be 54, paired with a 4n besseae with 4n=48. What is the actual count for the 4n Waunakee Sunset? The Fritz should have 2n=28, your hybrid should have something between 2n=38 and 2n=40. 
What I wanted to say is: there are possibly less genes from besseae in the mix than the simple equation would suggest. On the other hand, you chose a Waunakee Sunset which favours besseae, so: who knows.

as for the flower: the cross makes sense to me, but I agree with you on this flower: colour is interesting. The Waunakee Sunset is a cracker, though.


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## monocotman (Sep 19, 2013)

and of course, the individual chromosomes also break and recombine with each other during each cycle of crossing so what the actual % of each species is in each individual hybrid plant is anyone's guess.
You'd need to cover each chromosome in genetic markers that distinguish between each species to work that out!
David


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## Erythrone (Sep 19, 2013)

labskaus said:


> That'll be 100,40%. I know I'm a pea counter.
> 
> As of your own counting, besseae has 2n=24, fischeri 2n=30, kovachii 2n=32



besseae	66,666666666666666… % or 2/3
kovachi	16,66666666666666…. % or 1/6
fischeri	16,66666666666…..% or 1/6

Now it is = 100.000000.....%


Is it better for you?

(BTW I also believe the actual % of each species in each individual hybrid plant is anyone's guess. Answering to this quizz was only a game for me)


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## labskaus (Sep 20, 2013)

No insult intended, I too took it as a game. I was thinking about a "next level": considered that each chromosome pairing results in 50% of either parent, a cross of besseae with n=24 and fischeri n=30 would result in n=27, with 24 chromosomes having 50% of besseae and fischeri, plus 3 chromosomes with 100% fischeri. You'll get ca. 45% besseae and 55% fischeri in Barbara LeAnn. Theoretically.


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## NYEric (Sep 20, 2013)

What about the kovachiixbesseae?


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## W. Beetus (Sep 20, 2013)

The Waunakee Sunset is outstanding!!


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