# Not a happy customer



## Candace (Apr 1, 2008)

http://cgi.ebay.com/LARGE-PHAL-PHAL...ryZ42218QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## NYEric (Apr 1, 2008)

Ouchie!!


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## Heather (Apr 1, 2008)

Am I the only one who finds the listing amusing?


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## Candace (Apr 1, 2008)

That's the point.:snore: And a lesson not to mess with Tawainese phals.


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## goldenrose (Apr 1, 2008)

Heather said:


> Am I the only one who finds the listing amusing?



Not amusing ....... sounds really pissed and don't buy from Norman's!


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## NYEric (Apr 1, 2008)

That kind of sucks because there is a paph I want to get from them!


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## goldenrose (Apr 1, 2008)

I bought 2 plants last Aug. The Psychopsis Mendenhall 'Monarch' is wonderful - 2 spikes & has continued to bloom on & off since I got it, well worth $50! The other was a paph - it's a roth X, the plant is fine & healthy. Maybe I was lucky....?


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## Candace (Apr 1, 2008)

Have you had them virus tested, Roseoke: Really, the Tawainese catts and phals would be the ones I'd steer clear of.


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## goldenrose (Apr 1, 2008)

maybe I should edit - well worth $50 if they're virus free!
I'm staying clear of phals, for some reason most of them don't appreciate my growing conditions!


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## NYEric (Apr 1, 2008)

Phals love my conditions but I know better than to order them [now]!


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## gotsomerice (Apr 1, 2008)

I am thinking of buying some paphs from them. Should I? I've heard that most paphs are immured to virus.


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## Heather (Apr 1, 2008)

goldenrose said:


> Not amusing ....... sounds really pissed and don't buy from Norman's!




I gave up buying from Norman's two years ago because of their antics so it's no skin off my teeth!


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## rdlsreno (Apr 1, 2008)

I have been getting bad reviews from Norman's Orchids.

Ramon


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## Sirius (Apr 1, 2008)

Norman's orchids is a great place to shop if you want to buy fraudulently misrepresented, overpriced, pest ridden, and virused orchids.

My first order from them was beautiful. All the plants were healthy and I was impressed with the shipping. This must have been a fluke.

My second order contained a plant nearly dessicated by an active mite infestation. I tried to have the plant replaced with a healthy one, and I was told that all of the plants of that particular grex were in the same condition. Customer service was a snotty teenager of limited intelligence.

My third order was my last. They sent me the wrong plants, and one of them was covered in mealies. I tried to get them to fix the problem, and they told me that the plants that were shipped to me were more expensive than the plants I ordered, so I should just be happy with what they sent. Really, this is what they said! I talked to the same arrogant kid who handles customer service for them. He is so mouthy over the phone, he better hope I never meet him at an orchid show.

Don't take my word for it. If you feel the overwhelming need to order from them, go ahead. In time, you WILL be screwed by them and have zero recourse.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Apr 1, 2008)

I've never ordered from them....been tempted, but the after reading all the bad reviews over the past several years, decided that they were not worth the attempt. At this point, why bother? I have done very well with the vendors on this list, and the few ebay vendor's I bid on. Take care, Eric


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## Candace (Apr 1, 2008)

gotsomerice, whoever told you paphs are immune to virus was very wrong. You typically find more virus in catts, phals and dendrobiums due to the ablility to clone a virused mother plant into thousands of virused seedlings that are then grown out and hit the market. Whereas the science of paph cloning isn't there yet. Also, paphs aren't usually divided with tools so that lessens the chance of spreading it with dirty tools. But here's a quote from Bob W. on another thread that says it all....

"Maybe just bad wording, but at any rate Paphs are susceptible to the three most commonly found viruses in orchid collections, I know of no data scoring susceptibility of different genera, but I have found enough virused Paphs, usually older clones that have been around forever or clones from collections with lots of Cattleyas and Cymbidiums. I believe the thought is Paphs are rarely exposed to viruses because we don't tend to cut on them as much as Cattleyas or Cymbidiums, and since they aren't cloned they are not distributed pre-virused as many other genera were. Also a word about summering out. Bean Yellow Mosaic virus has many, many hosts (rarely beans these days as they've been by and large bred for resistance), and is readily transmitted to orchids by aphids. It is the only virus that I have seen have overt serious consequences for Paphs (as in death)."


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## SlipperFan (Apr 1, 2008)

gotsomerice said:


> I am thinking of buying some paphs from them. Should I? I've heard that most paphs are immured to virus.


Not immune, but certainly not as bothered by them as some genera, as per Candace's post (which I hadn't read before I responded!)


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## Roth (Apr 1, 2008)

SlipperFan said:


> Not immune, but certainly not as bothered by them as some genera, as per Candace's post (which I hadn't read before I responded!)



They are more or less. One thing, most hobbyists and professionnals get their orchids tested for 2 major viruses, CyMV and ORSV, and sometimes BYMV for masdevallias, plus one or two others ( Tomato Ringspot, etc...)

I visited the cloning labs of some companies. Back to several years ago, those labs were generalistic, from orchids to tomato, to micrografted zucchinis. They did not care at all about cleanliness of the tools, they were there to make very, very cheap "plants.

At the same times sprouted the first reports of tomato ringspot virus and some others in orchids. The dreadful Orchid Fleck Virus ( apparently seed transmitted as well), and many others attack any type of orchid, anytime.

Some nurseries used their breeding plants as cut flowers when they did not want to exhaust the plant. Hence, they cutted the flower stems... Some others got a worker cutting a couple brown tips on the plants when they repot, etc...

Basically, I got virused paphs, tested for CyMV and ORSV, but I suspect that some chlorosis and necrotic patches can be virus-induced. I have no proof for that, but it is possible. At any rate, I have seen sometimes seedlings a couple of months out of flasks with very heavy necrotic and chlorotic patches, that did not test for any known fungus or bacteria. Apparently the others grexes were not affected in this dutch nursery, so it should not be a mineral deficiency. Remains only virus, or nearly so, as a possible cause. BYMV in paphs is most frequent, to my experience, in old complex hybrids and some pot plant types, but there are so many virus that it is impossible to assume a plant is really virus free, except by complete ELISA testing ( we speak about a thousand or more US$ for all the viruses known, only for the reagents, not the workers !), followed by electron microscopy.

As well, before many people were sowing paphs as dry seeds. Now, to gain time, most labs will do green seed caps, so virus transmission is likely... I had sometimes flasks from a few suppliers whose seedlings would never perform well, and always have kind of chlorosis and necrosis at a time or another...


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## Hien (Apr 2, 2008)

From reading Sanderianum's post. I just wonder that maybe we worry too much about infection.
I think that everything that exist on land will have virus, bacteria, fungi in them (may be not the ones we can detect, or harmful ones, or with obvious symptoms). 
All living things that are big enough will have something else inside them.


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## littlefrog (Apr 2, 2008)

This is probably true, Hien. Heck, humans have probably thousands of endogenous retroviruses (integrated right into the genome), most of which are 'dead' but a (very) few of which could activate at any time with unknown consequences. Plant genomes are probably similarly cluttered. It would be impossible to make any organism completely virus free.

However, it is still not really an excuse to be sloppy. Especially with viruses we know cause harm, like TMV and bean mosaic.


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## Carol (Apr 2, 2008)

*Garden Web*

Check out the forum on Garden Web. Norman's has issued a response after a lengthy list of comments.


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## Candace (Apr 2, 2008)

Yeah, the Agdia test kits are inaccurate. That's the ticket!:rollhappy:


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## gotsomerice (Apr 2, 2008)

I posted a response to them at gardenweb:

"I know for a fact that H&R in Hawaii has a printed guarantee their catalogs that their plants are Virus free. As a customer I would never return a plant and pay extra shipping cost to get a refund. I would just eat the lost and would not order from the same place again. I would vote with my wallet. The most important thing in business to me is customer services."

I purchase plants from Norman's Orchids once. That was the last time. I think it was about five years ago. I didn't like the vibe there.


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## Candace (Apr 2, 2008)

In the rebuttal the vendor compares an orchid virus to the common cold. That isn't a good simile at all. The correct simile should be orchid virus is like AIDS in people.


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## WolfDog1 (C. Williams) (Apr 2, 2008)

Candace said:


> In the rebuttal the vendor compares an orchid virus to the common cold. That isn't a good simile at all. The correct simile should be orchid virus is like AIDS in people.





huh?


Craig


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## e-spice (Apr 3, 2008)

Candace said:


> Have you had them virus tested, Roseoke: Really, the Tawainese catts and phals would be the ones I'd steer clear of.



Ditto - especially the phals.

e-spice


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## Candace (Apr 3, 2008)

Craig, he posted a rebuttal on G.W. that you'd have to read. Then you'd understand what I mean... http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/orchids/msg03194421731.html?49


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## Roth (Apr 3, 2008)

The other problem is that for most of the selection or breeding lines, they DO NOT exist without viruses, CyMV or ORSV. It is as well up to the consumer to stay away from those, and to the retailer to know it, and not stock such items, or only for supermarket pot plant.

Taiwanese ( well, we say "taiwanese", but in fact it is Chinese, nearly all the Taiwanese got their plants processed from cloning to NBS in Mainland China nowadays) have the cheapest plants worldwide for the phals. No one can compete with them. They have some breeding lines that could be found very desirable, such as the harlequins. 

Many phalaenopsis actually cannot breed easily, the seeds have to be harvested when the seed caps is green. This trend started with Phal. Golden Sands 'Canary', whose most progeny can be safely assumed to be virused, and more recently with ALL the harlequins. Furthermore, there is a lot of competition in Taiwan, and they have to process everything quickly, so green caps is their way to go.

Why they breed so many plants and get them awarded/cloned ? Not for the hobby market. They generate some income by releasing stem props to foolish people thinking they buy the latest "trend" in taiwanese phals and make a wonderful investment ( the first 10 plants of ever spring king 'Lee' went to hobbyists for 1000$+ each plant ! 6 months later, the first batch of meristem was released, at 10$ a plant at first, around 5000 plants !).

But their main income is the pot-plant. The breeders work to make new hybrids with showy flowers that will be used by the large scale pot-plant nurseries. Nothing more, nothing less. Virus in this industry is negligible, at least they think, because the end product is expected to be short-lived, they grow it, bloom it once, and sell it, byebye.

Now my thinkings:

- Pëople know for a long time that there is definitely a virus problem in many taiwanese nurseries, for phals and catts, but sometimes for paphs as well. If they are so addicted to buy such plants ( in the case of experienced growers I mean), that's their choice as well. 

- If people choose to have phals that come from pot-plant market ( all the harlequins are bred and crossed by the zillions, in Ha Noi we get phals from a amazingly large nursery near Shanghai, and I have seen many, many of the 'latest breeding' in harlequins sold for 3$ a plant in bloom !) and include them in their collection, that's their choice too. I think that anyway, there should be a listing of the people who test their plants, so the cultivars that are virused are known. If 2 plants of the same cultivar are virused, it simply means that the motherplant is virused as well, hence all the plants from that cultivar, worldwide. That would be helpful. Same should be done for the catts. At least, people will restrain from buying those cultivars, and buy others ( that they will have to get tested anyway, who knows...).

- Sometimes something can be gorgeous and completely corrupt. It applies to humans as well. I think that the harlequins are beautiful for some of them, some of the non-harlequins are wonderful too from Taiwan ( the catts, sorry, but I prefer by far the US and Japanese breeding lines...), but we must force to forget about them, or accept to have a hell of a lot of problems with diseases ( viruses are one, but fusarium is another one hidden in many of those phals, due to the sphagnum they use.).

About making a guarantee that the plants are virus free, I think, at least some of the plants should be free of 5 viruses, CyMV, ORSV, Tomato Ringspot Virus, Orchid Fleck Virus, and BYMV. The "good practice" would be that each plant cloned is guaranteed to be free from those 5 viruses, and that they are not processed if they have any of thoses...

The non-virused "guaranteed" plants should be mentioned explicitely in the pricelists. Offering only non-virused plants would incur some more US$/plant, if every single plant is to be tested, and anyway, unfortunately many people do not care...

Regarding destroying a collection, CyMV and ORSV are "mild" compared to Orchid Fleck Virus. One odd fact, one famous nursery kept all their breeding plants in the same area, and the water below the plants could test positive for viruses. They were recirculating that water, not caring too much, because anyway those virused plants were used for dry seed breeding...

However, a plant that had ORSV nearly never got CyMV, and the opposite is true. So it appears that those 2 viruses are more difficult to transmit than OFV as an example (OFV has been known to infect plants by contact, and by dry seeds !).

One should not be completely paranoid about viruses, but get rid of any plant that is known to have virus, or any suspect plant ( plant that have some problems, such as chlorosis or otherwise...). Many viruses are more dangerous than ORSV or CyMV, but they cannot be detected easily...


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## NYEric (Apr 3, 2008)

Very interesting. It's hard [for me at least] to seperate out or destroy a problem plant even in a small home collection.


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## Hien (Apr 3, 2008)

Reading all the posts & specially Sanderianum's, I am afraid that we already have contamination in our collection?
We have plants from Taiwan for many years now. (paph, catt, phal, oncidium intergeneric etc..) 
If you don't test each plant in the collection now, you can not really be sure that you are safe. All you need is one disease plant without symptom among the rest.
If you have 500 plants that will cost 2500 just for testing them yourself.:sob:
And most hobbyists have more or less that size of collections.
I better find myself another hobby .


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## NYEric (Apr 3, 2008)

Yep, send me your phrags!


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## Hien (Apr 3, 2008)

NYEric said:


> Yep, send me your phrags!


 I will keep that thought in mind when I found the new hobby.
I've never heard of anyone who is so happy to receive plants with diseases & insects:rollhappy:


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## NYEric (Apr 3, 2008)

Yeah, but I don't mind cleaning them or isolating them. I got a few beauts that were scale farms!


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## Candace (Apr 3, 2008)

Hien, I hear body piercing is a fun hobby.


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## NYEric (Apr 3, 2008)

Or fancy goldfish breeding.


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## practicallyostensible (Apr 3, 2008)

NYEric said:


> Or fancy goldfish breeding.



Hey now, I love my fancy goldfish... and they love me.


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## NYEric (Apr 4, 2008)

Of course they do dear..ity:


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## Roy (Apr 4, 2008)

NYEric said:


> Or fancy goldfish breeding.



Or eating !!


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