# Emailed F&W about Viet Paph imports again.



## s1214215 (Apr 14, 2011)

I have emailed Fisheries and Wildlife again to ask about Paph species found in Vietnam and neihbouring countries and if they can be imported to the USA. I await a reply.

*delenatii *- Vietnam, China - widespread in world collections including 'dunkle form' and pure alba. Just saw it for sale in a prominent US nurseries website

*emersonii *- Vietnam, China (Yunnan and Guangdong) - found in US collections though I am told.

*hangianum *- Vietnam, China (Yunnan) - starting to show up in US collections legally, I am told. This is the species I question. I was told that it has been indentified in-situ in China.

*helenae *- Vietnam (Cao Bang) - a few in US collections are coming legal now.

*jackii *(Syn malipoense v. jackii) - Vietnam, China (Yunnan) 

*malipoense *- Vietnam, China (Yunnan) - common in collections due to huge quantities exported. I just saw for sale on a prominent nurseries website and it looked like ex-Taiwan stock from the name.

*micranthum *- Vietnam, China (Guangxi, Yunnan, Guizhou) - in USA legally and common.

*tranlienianum *- Vietnam 

*vietnamense *- Vietnam - in USA collections.


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## Bolero (Apr 14, 2011)

Ok, that's interesting as we have all these in Australia but that has always been an issue. So are you checking before you buy them or is there a reason you posted that you did this? Sorry just getting context around why you sent the email....

Thanks

Darren


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## s1214215 (Apr 14, 2011)

Hi Darren

I am sending to the USA, and checking that they can get there. 

Good to know what paphs we have in Oz though.. I am bring quite a lot back in flask when I come back and didnt know if tranlienum was around or not. I was tempted to get a second flask and I was not sure if thaianum had been brought in by anyone other than me.

Have their been problems bringing Paphs to Oz other than AQIS fumigating them to death?

On topic though, I am trying to get details on all these species as I dont want to send paphs that do grow in Vietnam and/or elsewhere to see them rejected when sent to the USA in flask.

Brett


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## emydura (Apr 14, 2011)

s1214215 said:


> Hi Darren
> 
> I am sending to the USA, and checking that they can get there.
> 
> ...



There are no problems in Australia. You can bring anything.

As for the US I think you won't be allowed to ship in helenae, translienianum, hangianum and possibly jackii. I'll let those in the US confirm and explain why.

David


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## Bolero (Apr 14, 2011)

Ah I see, that makes more sense. Thanks for that, wasn't sure what was going on.


Flasks don't get fumigated and you can bring up to 6 back without a permit. Let us know how you go.

You only need fumigation in Australia if you are bringing back plants out of flask.........


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## s1214215 (Apr 14, 2011)

Thanks David

Well, lets see what Fisheries and Wildlife say to as they control the import of plants. 

To me it seems like Vietnam has made a claim on some species that are not 100% endemic. 

On top of that, why stop legal export when the Vietnamese govt seems to do practically nothing to stop the illegal export (maybe theres more money in that for some). I certain see enough wild Viet paphs here in Bangkok from time to time at the markets.

Seems insane to stop the trade in propagated plants at the cost of wild ones.


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## emydura (Apr 14, 2011)

s1214215 said:


> Thanks David
> 
> Well, lets see what Fisheries and Wildlife say to as they control the import of plants.
> 
> ...



I didn't say it made any sense. The US interpretation of CITES is unique to say the least. 

Best of luck

David


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## s1214215 (Apr 14, 2011)

emydura said:


> I didn't say it made any sense. The US interpretation of CITES is unique to say the least.
> 
> Best of luck
> 
> David



Thanks David.. I appreciate your input. Yes, it doesnt make sense, but then neither does Vietnam's stance.:sob:

Brett


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## s1214215 (Apr 14, 2011)

Just got a reply from Fisheries and Wildlife (USA). 

"_Dear Brett, Thanks for following up. I am consulting with others here who have greater expertise regarding the orchid trade. I should have a response for you by tomorrow. Best, Craig_"

Lets hope for a favourable reply. I highlighted the issue that some species are already legal in the USA, and others may exist outside Vietnam.

Brett


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## NYEric (Apr 14, 2011)

Thanx for the effort, please remember that some of these species were allowed to be sold as offspring and hybids of grown out from plants given confiscated materials, vietnamense thru Antec for example. The plants these "rescue centers" sold are therefore legal!


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## s1214215 (Apr 14, 2011)

Hi Eric.. 

YEs, true. But then isnt it becoming a silly situation to refuse flasks from other countries? They are in the USA, I still think its all rather silly to refuse plants from Taiwan or elsewhere that are line-bred and thus not wild collected. Atleast not for some time.. Here in Thailand, wild plants among serious hobbyists are less and less popular, atleast when dealing with flasks..

Anyway, who am I to try to figure out the minds of the people who make these rules, laws etc. Too many ivory towers for me.

Brett


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## s1214215 (Apr 15, 2011)

OK, got a reply. Here it is. Comments anyone.

_"Dear Brett, 

Thanks again for your email. As I noted earlier, the key issue would be whether the parental stock were legally obtained. So, even for specimens that are widely available, it may be that some, but not all, stock have been derived from legal specimens. In other words, there are few instances where I am able to make a blanket statement about what is and is not legal to import to the United States.

Regarding your list, the ones that would be of least concern regarding the legality of parental stock, based on our understanding that legal specimens were widely available and in trade prior to their listing in Appendix I, are: delenatii, emersonii, malipoense, micranthum, villosum. Also, delenatii is one of the two Vietnamese endemics that Viet Nam allowed out more recently before closing the door on further exports from the wild.

Regarding hangianum, it is my understanding that there are plants of legal origin exported from China, but we are not aware of production of this species from legal origin plants elsewhere. Both helenae and vietnamense are legally available within the United States because they originated from confiscated parental stock. However, we are not aware of legal specimens elsewhere. We are not aware of legal exports of tranlienianum from Viet Nam. We are also not aware of legal specimens of jackii. So, unless you have information/documentation to support the lawful acquisition of specimens of these species, it is unlikely that we would allow their import to the United States. We would be less concerned about those in the second paragraph, though again, the parental stock still must be lawfully obtained.

I hope that helps. Please let me know if you have further questions. 

Best, 

Craig Hoover
Chief, Branch of Operations
USFWS Division of Management Authority"_


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## SlipperFan (Apr 15, 2011)

Interesting -- please keep us posted.


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## gonewild (Apr 15, 2011)

So based on what Crag wrote you can import hangianum into the USA from China with CITES documents issued by China.

If you want to export hangianum from Thailand into the USA you need some form of proof that the parent stock was legally exported from China to Thailand.


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## quietaustralian (Apr 15, 2011)

gonewild said:


> So based on what Crag wrote you can import hangianum into the USA from China with CITES documents issued by China.
> 
> If you want to export hangianum from Thailand into the USA you need some form of proof that the parent stock was legally exported from China to Thailand.



Thats the way I read it too.
Mick


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## gonewild (Apr 15, 2011)

quietaustralian said:


> Thats the way I read it too.
> Mick



Well perhaps if the Thailand CITES office certified that the hangianum flasks were legally propagated in Thailand by issuing CITES export certificates the USA F&W would accept the import. They could justify the entry based on trusting that Thailand CITES was correctly issuing the documents and had verified the legality of the parent stock.

I think F&W would have no reason to doubt the accuracy of the Thai documents as long as they were genuine. They just need to see real papers properly executed.

So there is the next question for Craig.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Apr 15, 2011)

Thank you Brett, for all you are doing for us!


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## Bolero (Apr 15, 2011)

Interesting, keep us posted........sounds somewhat promising.


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## NYEric (Apr 15, 2011)

being discrete.


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## AquaGem (Apr 16, 2011)

gonewild said:


> Well perhaps if the Thailand CITES office certified that the hangianum flasks were legally propagated in Thailand by issuing CITES export certificates the USA F&W would accept the import. They could justify the entry based on trusting that Thailand CITES was correctly issuing the documents and had verified the legality of the parent stock.
> 
> I think F&W would have no reason to doubt the accuracy of the Thai documents as long as they were genuine. They just need to see real papers properly executed.
> 
> So there is the next question for Craig.



They wil still ask for the documents that leads to the legality of the parent plants that produces these seedlings.


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## s1214215 (Apr 16, 2011)

I have emailed back for clarification. Lets see what informatiion comes back.

1: How do you determine plants in flask “derived from legal specimens?”  Well this sis problematic as in some countries it is not illegal to collect wild plants. I have been told this is the case in China.

2: Does the amount of generations of breeding from a species have any consequence for import to the USA?  I suspect not.

3: What certification proves other than the statement on the phytosanitary certificate from an issuing country that the plants in flask are propagated and legal for export? 
 It would seem that a legal document such as a phytosanitary where the species is clearly declared (for flasks) is a document where country of issue is vouching that the plants contained within are legally propagated. 

_Or is there some certificate that each and every species of Vietnamese nature is meant to carry to say it or its parent plants were legally exported?_ This really needs spelling out what certs are needed.

4: If Vietnam was to export seed of a species of concern, would this make plants in flask legal?

At least we have what seems an OK for delenatii, emersonii, malipoense, micranthum, villosum. I have seen some of them for sale in the USA and clearly from newly imported stock in some cases given the clonal names of the plants.

Brett


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## quietaustralian (Apr 17, 2011)

s1214215 said:


> I have emailed back for clarification. Lets see what informatiion comes back.
> 
> 1: How do you determine plants in flask “derived from legal specimens?”  Well this sis problematic as in some countries it is not illegal to collect wild plants. I have been told this is the case in China.
> 
> ...



It is illegal to remove orchids and some other plants from nature in Vietnam. That being said, enforcement is erratic and sometimes non existent. You don't get many pics of Vietnamese orchid collections on this forum because there is always the possibility of a knock on the door. I thought this was the case in China too but I could be wrong.People do get busted for smuggling orchids from time to time but it doesn't make the news. Occasionally someone will be busted with a tiger carcass in the back of a taxi and that will make the news.

Regards, Mick


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## NYEric (Apr 17, 2011)

as well it should!


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## likespaphs (Apr 17, 2011)

isn't the main problem with plant from Vietnam legally entering the U.S. is that they are not a signatory to c.i.t.e.s.?


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## quietaustralian (Apr 17, 2011)

likespaphs said:


> isn't the main problem with plant from Vietnam legally entering the U.S. is that they are not a signatory to c.i.t.e.s.?



Vietnam became a party to CITES in 1994.

Regards, Mick


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## NYEric (Apr 17, 2011)

The problem is that vietnam says they never legally released some species, even though there were plants exported with the approval of some viet CITES offices!


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## quietaustralian (Apr 18, 2011)

s1214215 said:


> I have emailed Fisheries and Wildlife again to ask about Paph species found in Vietnam and neihbouring countries and if they can be imported to the USA. I await a reply.
> 
> *delenatii *- Vietnam, China - widespread in world collections including 'dunkle form' and pure alba. Just saw it for sale in a prominent US nurseries website
> 
> ...



I find it hard to believe that China can claim to have natural populations of delenatii unless they consider Vietnam a renegade state and not a country in its own right. 

I'm interested in any papers or reliable documented sources regarding hangianum occurring naturally in China. I have heard that hangianum has been found there but haven't seen documentation. Anyone have some links?

Mick


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## Howzat (Apr 18, 2011)

I agree with the establishment of CITES. But I doubt if the administration of it, is practical and fair or is it there to prevent the proliferation of a species?? Since I read the "Orchid Fever" some 10-11 years ago, I became skeptical about the administration of CITES. Where did all the plants confiscated in that European raids end up?? At RHS : many died, but I heard some ended up in some American Glass Houses. 
How can you distinguish a legal from illegal. Do you have to keep the trail of paper works at all times.???
I bought hangianum in flask from Taiwan 3 years ago also some hybrids in the last 4 years. If a CITES agent asked me, I would not be able to prove that those plants in flasks are legal. It will be 4-5 years before they bloom. In the mean time other countries have already had their first and second generation hybrids. Australia likes to be seen as upholding CITES, that is why we are well behind in hybridising or even in preserving the species. There are thousands of hangianum in Taiwan and Japan and it is not considered as rare.
I also hybridised and selfed my malipoense, I do not have any paper work to say that my malipoense is a legal plant, which had it since 1988. 
If it was not for hybridiser like Terry Root and the likes, sanderianum and many other species would still be so rare. I think there are more sanderianum in private collection than there are still in the wild. Do we need to change the CITES rules?? which probably in its current form is something drawn up by some clever lawyers and botanists living in fairyland???????????


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## Marc (Apr 18, 2011)

Brett, allthough I'm not directly affected by this I apreciate the time and effort your putting into this to help our fellow Slipperfans in the US out.

Most Paphs that would be illegal to own in the US are easy to come by in Europe. A situation that I find odd myself but that's another discussion.


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## NYEric (Apr 18, 2011)

quietaustralian said:


> I find it hard to believe that China can claim to have natural populations of delenatii unless they consider Vietnam a renegade state and not a country in its own right.
> Mick



The People's Democratic Republic would openly welcome the return of our glorious brethren to the south to our family. :evil:
Actually, I've heard that parts of Vietnam are currently considered by the Chinese government to be within it's borders!



Marc said:


> Most Paphs that would be illegal to own in the US are easy to come by in Europe. A situation that I find odd myself ...


So do we!


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## s1214215 (Apr 23, 2011)

*The reply from F&W*



s1214215 said:


> I have emailed back for clarification. Lets see what informatiion comes back.
> 
> 1: How do you determine plants in flask “derived from legal specimens?”  Well this sis problematic as in some countries it is not illegal to collect wild plants. I have been told this is the case in China.
> 
> ...



Hi Everyone.. 

Heres the reply from Fisheries and Wildlife to the questions I put forward.

Brett

*"Dear Brett

Thanks for the response. Here are my responses to your questions in the order you asked them:

1. With regard to determining whether specimens are derived from legal parental stock, I appreciate that this can be difficult. We know that, for certain endemic species, the source country has indicated that no specimens have been allowed out for commercial purposes. Using a non-orchid example, there are many Australian reptile and bird species found in international trade globally, yet Australia has never issued permits for their export. Therefore, we are unable to issue permits even for captive-bred specimens because we know that the parental stock (even if going back several generations) was not lawfully obtained from Australia. For species that are not so clearcut, there should be documentation to support the lawful origin of the parental stock. The issue is not whether they are or not flasked and artificially propagated, but rather whether the original stock from the wild was lawfully exported and obtained.

2. The number of generations removed from the wild stock is not relevant to the determination of legal origin.

3. Certainly, documentation that indicates that the specimens are artificially propagated and lawfully exported is helpful to our determination. However, it is not definitive, again using the example I cited above. 

4. Seeds of Paphiopedilum species are still covered by the CITES Appendix-I listing. Therefore, any exports would still have to meet the CITES requirements. CITES documentation from Vietnam for seeds would certainly be evidence of lawful acquisition. But whether they allow the export or not will be up to the Vietnamese authorities.

I hope this helps. Let me know if you have other questions. 

Best, 

Craig"

*


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## quietaustralian (Apr 23, 2011)

It’s ironic that on other forums out there on the web, reptile, mammal and bird keepers are cursing Australia for having some of the toughest wildlife laws in the world.
Mick


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## s1214215 (Apr 23, 2011)

Yes, its ironic and I say stupid that we dont allow a controlled limited export of our fauna. Smuggling as a result is encouraged. 

Take a stroll through Jatujak market, where your will find species smuggled from all around the world. I have seen ringtail possum, sugar gliders, various coral, fish from Australia, as well as many others I could name. Sellers happily will tell you were a lot came from. None of this will go away, this market has been there for years and is very protected.

Now, why not control the a reasonable export. Maybe we may learn something in the process. The sugar glider is supposed to be endangered and hard to breed. Well the Thais breed them in the thousands for the pet trade. They must have figured something out. They even have colour variants now. Only one state allows them to be kept as pets. Now, thats dumb as obviously they can be bred, and why not re-introduce to the wild if they are so scarce? Yet we allow cats and dogs to continue to decimate the wild populations. 

The issue is the same as it is for many orchids around the world. Instead of preserving species in cultivation, governments are allowing them to disappear due to uncontrolled poaching. Its time we took control of how exports occur, instead of shutting the doors and encouraging smuggling.

Brett


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## NYEric (Apr 23, 2011)

Obviously the beaurocrats would stand behind their archaic inane rules!


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## s1214215 (Apr 23, 2011)

Agreed 

Anyway, back to the reply from F&W above. It seems we are still in the same boat of how do you prove something is propagated legally, and if a country is supposed to have not let a species out, then its probably not happening any time soon

Brett


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