# "What do Orchids Eat?" Experiment



## shadytrake (May 29, 2013)

Recently at our MOS show, (May 17-19), I had a chance to sit down with Rick to discuss his article "What do Orchids Eat?" from the March issue of _ORCHIDS_. I had been experiencing the same declines he mentioned in the article and I was really struggling with my collection. 

He was patient enough to walk me through the local water quality report and my fertilizing regimen. Based on our discussions, I decided to discontinue the fertilizer and supplement my watering with Epson Salt initially and to add Kelp and some Calcium later on. 

I am specifically monitoring 5 orchids that have been frustrating me:

Cattleya luteola - has done nothing for 4 years.
Neofinetia falcata - has grown but never bloomed (and we have tried everything).
Dendrobium lindleyi - blooms erratically (last year 11 spikes, this year 2 and not much new growth)
Phragmipedium Wossen - every time it is fertilized, leaf tip burn. Have had it for 4 years and it still looks like a BS seedling.
Sophronitis cernua - have had for 4 years and it has bloomed once.

So far I have taken before pictures of C. luteola last weekend and I have new pictures as of tonight showing aggressive new growth. I haven't seen this type of growth ever. I am pleased with the results so far. :clap:

I would really like to thank Rick for taking the time to speak with me.


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## NYEric (May 30, 2013)

Good luck! I'm notorious for under-feeding, among other things!  post a photo of all the culprits so we can see if there is any progress, thanks.


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## Rick (May 30, 2013)

Hi Shady

It was a good show, and great time to spend with you and the rest of the Memphis Society.

It will be interesting to see how your plants progress out there on Memphis water.

It's pretty unique with low hardness and plenty of silicates.


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## DavidCampen (May 30, 2013)

Here is my C. luteola. I bought it a year ago. It sat there like a rock for 6 months but then in March and April it put out two stems with 2 flowers each. 
It has 6 new pseudobulbs forming on it now.


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## Stone (May 31, 2013)

I was going to give the low K a rest but here is further evidence that for every klite success there are non-klite examples which show the same thing. All the more reason to have a side by side comparison.


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## Roy (May 31, 2013)

What do orchids eat ??? MONEY !!!!!!


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## eteson (May 31, 2013)

Roy said:


> What do orchids eat ??? MONEY !!!!!!



True!


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## SlipperFan (May 31, 2013)

Roy said:


> What do orchids eat ??? MONEY !!!!!!



Best answer yet! :rollhappy:


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## gonewild (May 31, 2013)

Stone said:


> I was going to give the low K a rest but here is further evidence that for every klite success there are non-klite examples which show the same thing. All the more reason to have a side by side comparison.



Are you serious? Shady eliminated K from her fertilizer and in only a few weeks look at the improved growth! oke:

Before you use this as evidence against K-lite you should know what fertilizer was being used. 
But since you brought it up...... Shady says her plants have not been doing well for 4 years and now they are finally growing. A growth spurt every 4 years is not showing equal results to K-lite.

Shady whatever change you made was a good decision, Show us some pictures when all the stems flower!


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## shadytrake (Jun 2, 2013)

Hi All,

Sorry I missed the replies until now. I was using my regular water plus MSU fertilizer before so I know I was using quality stuff. I even made the liquid dilution I think the 25% solution as recommended on Ray's website (forgive my layman's version as I am not a chemist or a math expert). To the best of my ability, I was using the recommended ppm with regular MSU. 

All my plants looked fabulous when I bought them or received divisions, but they gradually went into decline and then became susceptible to pests. On a side note, it seemed like the more systemic and/or safer's soap that I applied, the less it worked. I think not only did the K inhibit the uptake of the right nutrient levels, but that it also inhibited the uptake of systemics (like Bayer). 

I'm just setting up my second Orbit 4-way Arizona Mist system today so I haven't had a chance to look at the "test subjects" today. However, I will check them tonight and snap a few photos.

I would like to comment that I just ordered the K Lite today to supplement and I have found a local supplier of Liquid Seaweed from maxicrop that has an analysis of 0-0-1 so it does have 1%K. I don't think that % is going to really cause a problem as long as I dilute.

*I was wondering about Chlorine (Cl) not more than 1%. I don't know what that does and if it is good or bad for my orchids so if the experts can chime in, that would be great.*

Thanks - Melissa


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## shadytrake (Jun 2, 2013)

DavidCampen said:


> Here is my C. luteola. I bought it a year ago. It sat there like a rock for 6 months but then in March and April it put out two stems with 2 flowers each.
> It has 6 new pseudobulbs forming on it now.



David,

I hope mine will look that good at some point!


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## shadytrake (Jun 2, 2013)

By the way, I have kept a diary of the orchids that I have killed and the straw that broke my back was my $$$ kovachi hybrid that I bought for myself as a present 3 years ago that I tried and tried to keep from dying. It came from Orchids Ltd and was huge and beautifully grown...so it died from my culture. It even had its own swamp cooler.


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## Rick (Jun 2, 2013)

Hi Melisa

Chlorine must be 1ppm not 1% (that would be 10,000 ppm). 1 ppm should be ok. If you start using a lot of water, you may consider running it through a carbon filter to take out the chlorine.

If you dilute the kelp to about 1/4 tsp per gal then it will only add a few ppm of K, and that would be fine. It will probably also eat up the chlorine.


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## shadytrake (Jun 3, 2013)

Okay, here are some reference pictures.

The Neofinetia, the Phrag Wossen, & the Soph cernua have no historical photos because they haven't done squat. You can see the burn on the Phrag from the last fertilizing of MSU (5/10/2013) and the recovery new leaves starting.

I don't see any progress on the Neo or the Soph yet...maybe too soon to tell.

The Den lindleyi I have quite a few historical photos since the first decline.

The first photo showing the full mount was one year after re-mount (2009). The year prior when we purchased it, it had 15 spikes and was in full bloom for the vendor's show display. I was told that it sometimes sulks after a re-pot so we put it on a large mount good for years to come.

It did not bloom in 2010 or 2011 despite our best efforts with full winter rest. In 2012, we starved it over winter and then hit it with a lot of water and fertilizer as soon as we saw new growth. We were rewarded with a full blooming plant, however, no vegetative growth throughout the summer.

The last photo shows 2013 with 3 spikes. You can see the vegetative growth in decline. I really hope that I see new green growth otherwise we won't see blooms next year.

The very last photo is Laelia milleri showing greening up after flushing the old fertilizer away for 3 weeks. Believe it or not, it was almost cherry red and has refused to bloom. I'm really hoping that this one will turn around too. It is in a rock/orchiata mixture and gets almost full sun.


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## ALToronto (Jun 3, 2013)

What is the significance of the red coloration of the Laellia? I have a catt that is quite burgundy, even the root tips are red. It produces red flowers, so I thought it was normal. Other catts around it, treated the same way, are green.


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## Rick (Jun 3, 2013)

ALToronto said:


> What is the significance of the red coloration of the Laellia? I have a catt that is quite burgundy, even the root tips are red. It produces red flowers, so I thought it was normal. Other catts around it, treated the same way, are green.



One of the "case histories" in my article was a Doritus pulcherima that under the old MSU regime was a very small purple plant that refused to bloom. For at least 3 years. Going to low K (at the time I was not using kelp, and a calcium nitrate dilution of MSU), it dramatically went green. Within one growing season leaf size increased by 2X the largest leaves when it was purple). The following season it bloomed like crazy and got an AM.


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## Rick (Jun 3, 2013)

Stone said:


> I was going to give the low K a rest but here is further evidence that for every klite success there are non-klite examples which show the same thing. All the more reason to have a side by side comparison.



Keep in mind Melisa hasn't even started K lite yet. She's getting all this with NOTHING BUT WATER!

Her tap water has a few ppm of K in it, but obviously a lot less than if she was using MSU fert.

For another perspective of the argument, K lite is nothing more than MSU but with a 25% DECREASE in TDS. If you continue on to our present favorite use rate of 50ppm N then we've cut down our total consumption rate by 62.5%. 

Yes this is disproportionately by reducing K.

So if the anecdotal side by side result says "no difference" then it basically tells you at a minimum that you are wasting 62% of the fertilizer you are applying to get the same results.

So in comparison to David's results, consider that Melisa is seeing equally good results by doing NOTHING other than watering. So at least in the short term, a 100% reduction in fertilizer results in equal results as David's standard regime. (Which dredges up my comment in another thread to include a "negative control" of no supplementation at all in the proposed side by side study.

This brings up the old adage of "killing with kindness".:evil:


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## shadytrake (Jun 3, 2013)

Rick said:


> Hi Melisa
> 
> Chlorine must be 1ppm not 1% (that would be 10,000 ppm). 1 ppm should be ok. If you start using a lot of water, you may consider running it through a carbon filter to take out the chlorine.
> 
> If you dilute the kelp to about 1/4 tsp per gal then it will only add a few ppm of K, and that would be fine. It will probably also eat up the chlorine.



Thanks, Rick. I didn't use it yet because I wanted to make sure I wouldn't burn up the orchids with chlorine. I'll use this diluted. Can I filter it through a Brita filter for the carbon? Would that work? I don't mind just to use this that I bought already then I can switch to the Seaplex.


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## Rick (Jun 3, 2013)

shadytrake said:


> Thanks, Rick. I didn't use it yet because I wanted to make sure I wouldn't burn up the orchids with chlorine. I'll use this diluted. Can I filter it through a Brita filter for the carbon? Would that work? I don't mind just to use this that I bought already then I can switch to the Seaplex.



Yup the carbon in the Brita filter will get the chlorine Melisa. If you start using larger volumes of water, then you should get a bigger canister to hook up to a hose or plumbing. Or get a little sodium thiosulfate from an aquarium store.


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## shadytrake (Jun 3, 2013)

Rick said:


> Keep in mind Melisa hasn't even started K lite yet. She's getting all this with NOTHING BUT WATER!
> 
> Her tap water has a few ppm of K in it, but obviously a lot less than if she was using MSU fert.
> 
> This brings up the old adage of "killing with kindness".:evil:



Well I did add 1 TBSP/gallon of Epson Salts. 

I would like to report today that at least 6 Phrags have new growths - as a side note, it is tough to grow Phrags in a shade house here. Our outside temps regularly hit the upper 80s in June and the 90s in July. I don't expect miracles with my Phrags, but I am excited to see strong new growth.

I would also like to report my other Laelia longipes has almost lost its red tinge and has 3 very strong new growths that were not on the plant 3 weeks ago.

Also, on the subject of the red leaves, I am also watching a Phal pulcherrima cross that has been cherry red for over 2 years and hasn't bloomed. There is no reason for it not to bloom. It is slowly turning green again. I'm hoping that it will throw out a spike at some point.


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## Rick (Jun 3, 2013)

shadytrake said:


> Well I did add 1 TBSP/gallon of Epson Salts.



As a single shot for an entire summer that's OK, but I wouldn't do more than 1/8 tsp/gallon on a weekly basis in low hardness water. Magnesium concentration should stay below calcium concentration.


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## shadytrake (Jun 3, 2013)

Rick said:


> As a single shot for an entire summer that's OK, but I wouldn't do more than 1/8 tsp/gallon on a weekly basis in low hardness water. Magnesium concentration should stay below calcium concentration.



Good to know.


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## shadytrake (Jun 6, 2013)

I did a quick check of the orchids this am and I see new growth on 2 Phrags that were droopy before. I'm hoping that is a good sign.

I got my KLite today but I'm not doing a feeding until I filter the kelp liquid. I think I will start with a very diluted mixture.

Edit to add: checked the Den lindleyi tonight and I counted 7 new growths. 3 new growths are in the bare area showing in the most recent photograph so those are definitely new after the experiment started.

Also, I checked my Mc brysiana that has been in steady decline and pest ridden for the last 1 1/2 years and I find no evidence of new scale and oh my, a bloom spike is working. Now this might be the kiss of death, but I'm hoping not. I'm kind of a species nut so I get really attached to them.


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## shadytrake (Jun 14, 2013)

Wow what a heat wave! I haven't fertilized because the temps hit 100 twice this week. I still see crazy new growth with just plain Memphis water. I'm going to fertilize late tonight when the temp drops.

Will take pictures too. The bloom spike on Mc brysiana is confirmed. It is 1/2" long and growing. Would also like to report that our Aerides multiflora is putting out new fans that are strong and not weepy and the Vandopsis parishii var mariottiana is growing roots as thick as my thumb. These are exciting results!


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## shadytrake (Jun 29, 2013)

Okay it has still been so hot that I am afraid to fertilize. I did take the opportunity today to re-pot some of the Paphs.

After doing some more research about the natural habitats, I tried to create a better media.

For example, most of these paphs grow in a limestone area so I dissolved some lime in the sphag moss and added some regular gravel and crushed oyster shells.

You can see the new leaf on Phrag Wossen. I am happy with the new root growth but I suspected that our heat was stressing it so I transferred it from plastic to a "cool pot." 

You can really see the difference in the original growth vs the high K growth on the Paph delenatii. The leaves are not only 1/2 the size, but they turned a sickly yellow. The good news is that upon inspection, I see a fat new root (not pictured) and new leaf growth (pictured).

The Paph vietnamense has new root growth and a new leaf starting. The Paph Emma Decker and Becky Fouke both have new fat roots.

The most striking is the Mexipedium xerophyticum. You can see the new leaf is almost double the size of the old growth. 

Order of pictures:
Phrag Wossen
Paph delenatii var vini x sib (dunkel)
Paph vietnamense
Paph Becky Fouke
Paph Emma Decker
Mexipedium xerophyticum


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## Rick (Jun 29, 2013)

The use of oyster shell amendments with K lite is a bad idea.

The high bicarbonate (not calcium) increases pH and interferes with photosynthesis, impedes root uptake of CO2, and reduces nitrate reduction to ammonia. It is also a phosphate sponge that (initially until saturated) will keep the plants from uptake of phosphate.

These are things I used to do in the old days that never worked using MSU.

Also delenatii come from low pH sandstone areas (not limestone).

I'd get rid of the oyster shell.

Are your plants outside without cooling? I'm feeding almost every 2-3 days at 10-20ppm N.


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## shadytrake (Jun 29, 2013)

Oh that is interesting. I didn't know that. I'll brush it off then. I read a lot about top dressing with oyster. 

That's the difference between us lay people and you chemistry experts!


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## Rick (Jun 29, 2013)

Are your plants outside without cooling?

If they are experiencing 100 F in the shade, they are probably going to 110 with sunlight hitting them. You need to worry about some serious shading and misting instead of feeding for sure.

My GH has been hitting the mid to high 80's (even with mid 90's outside). I'm feeding every 2-3 days at 10-30ppm N.


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## shadytrake (Jun 30, 2013)

Rick said:


> Also delenatii isn't found over limestone, but over granite and sandstone (acidic).
> 
> Are your plants outside without cooling?
> 
> ...



Right on the delenatii - chemo brain kicked in there while I was typing. I didn't add lime to it's moss but I did add the oyster shell (which I will remove tomorrow).

No, they are in a shade house with a 6 station Orbit mist system on a battery timer. It hits at 6 different times plus if I see the temp hit 90, I go out and manually start the sequence. Plus I have 3 fans circulating.

I have a 30% shade cloth over top of the roof and the paphs/phrags are in the coolest part. Unfortunately it is a hot summer. 

My Catts are going to bloom like crazy for sure.


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## Rick (Jun 30, 2013)

shadytrake said:


> Oh that is interesting. I didn't know that. I'll brush it off then. I read a lot about top dressing with oyster.
> 
> That's the difference between us lay people and you chemistry experts!



I used to use a lot of oyster shell or aragonite sand with my mexipedium. The plant totally changed when reducing K with bigger leaves, fast growth and much reduced rot problems.

I recently got to compare my plant to Ed M's. My plant is a piece of his, but is now bigger. Ed made his own version of low K feed last year, but it has a bit more PO4 and a slightly higher percentage of ammonia. He also keeps a lot of oyster shell in his Mexi pot. His is growing at a very good rate, and is having a fantastic blooming, but it is yellower and has smaller leaves.

There could certainly be other factors causing the difference in growth, but since we live on opposite sides of Nashville, and are pretty diligent about temp and humidity issues, climate is probably not a significant difference.

Lots of folks (including myself) swore by calcareous pot amendments for Mexi and many other species, but I'm actually finding it to be a detriment with the present nutrient system I'm using now.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jun 30, 2013)

I always stop feeding my paphs when temps are regularly in the 90's....and I generally avoid repotting until things cool in late August. Of course, that's not always possible...squirrels or wind knock pots over, a mix turns out to be rotten or packed, but if all is well I wait until cooler weather to repot paphs.


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## shadytrake (Jun 30, 2013)

Oyster shell is 90% gone now. Good thing I went out there to do a last check as I found two slugs making their way up the newly repotted baskets...effers!

They are now squashed and I went ahead and quickly brushed off the shell and re-potted the Mexi into a stone/orchiata/hydroton mixture with a tiny bit of moss. Then I flushed it with water.

Good thing I didn't buy the 50# bag of shell.  The feed store had opened it so they just sold me a scoop.


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## shadytrake (Jul 1, 2013)

Well I'm doing pretty well with the plain water. I re-potted a bunch today with my new mixture and most of them look great. I also took the opportunity to kill the wayward slugs (man this is a bad year for them). 

I definitely think I am on the right track.:clap:

These are:
Paph insigne forma sanderae
Paph glanduliferum
Paph primulinum
Paph concolor
Paph armeniacum
Paph Hawaiian Illusion


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## Rick (Jul 1, 2013)

How long have the insigne and glanduliferum been in your collection?


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jul 1, 2013)

Sady, have you tried iron phosphate on your slugs? it's a bad year here too.


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## shadytrake (Jul 1, 2013)

Rick said:


> How long have the insigne and glanduliferum been in your collection?



2 or 3 years for the insigne, 1 year for the glanduliferum.

I believe the glanduliferum was a seedling leftover from Jo Levy because they are both tiny.


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## Rick (Jul 1, 2013)

shadytrake said:


> 2 or 3 years for the insigne, 1 year for the glanduliferum.
> 
> I believe the glanduliferum was a seedling leftover from Jo Levy because they are both tiny.



Couldn't quite figure it out. The first 2 pics are the insigne, the second two pics are 2 different "glanduliferum" and the last pic on the top row is the primulinum.

I know Jo was pretty hard core about using Garay's taxonomy on that "glanduliferum" complex of PNG paphs. They may be gardneri or wilhelmineae (and then they are potentially mature growths). If they are praestens then they have a ways to go.


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## Rick (Jul 1, 2013)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> Sady, have you tried iron phosphate on your slugs? it's a bad year here too.



I use that too. Bad in Nashville too.


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## shadytrake (Jul 2, 2013)

Rick said:


> Couldn't quite figure it out. The first 2 pics are the insigne, the second two pics are 2 different "glanduliferum" and the last pic on the top row is the primulinum.
> 
> I know Jo was pretty hard core about using Garay's taxonomy on that "glanduliferum" complex of PNG paphs. They may be gardneri or wilhelmineae (and then they are potentially mature growths). If they are praestens then they have a ways to go.



Right and they were labelled gardneri originally, but didn't Kew combine them and now gardneri is glanduliferum? I keep an inventory with these notes so I don't forget plus I keep the original tags in a bag away from UV.


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## shadytrake (Jul 2, 2013)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> Sady, have you tried iron phosphate on your slugs? it's a bad year here too.



How is it applied?


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## shadytrake (Jul 2, 2013)

Correction: gardineri


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## Rick (Jul 2, 2013)

shadytrake said:


> How is it applied?



A lot of the basic slug baits at your garden center are mostly ferric phosphate pellets.

Just scatter around on the floor under the benches, and in front of the door.


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## shadytrake (Jul 14, 2013)

Quick update. I counted the new growths on Den lindleyi (15)! I also checked the Cattleya luteola. The new growth leaves are already longer than the old ones! So exciting.

Also something interesting to note. I have a huge Phal Crestwood Mahogany. I was speaking with Tom (Stones River) at our show in May and he commented that this plant has always had floppy leaves and a messy growth habit.

I noticed that ever since I started this project, the floppy leaf growth is being replaced with firm leaves and stately traditional Phal growth. This is an unexpected surprise! I'm tickled pink with these results.

I don't see much of a change with Soph. cernua. I think I might just have a dud plant. We'll see.


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## shadytrake (Jul 19, 2013)

I thought I would post some pictures of the progress.

C luteola pictures from 5/29 showing 2 weeks post zero fertilizer.
C luteola pictures from 7/18 showing 1 week post 2nd K Lite dose.
C luteola picture showing old growth length.
C luteola picture showing new growth length.

Phal Crestwood 'Mahogany' showing old floppy growth.
Phal Crestwood 'Mahogany' showing new strong growth.

Although my experiment is not scientific, I am pleased with the results so far.

I would also like to make a side comment per my conversation with Rick back in May. We discussed that the weakness of the orchids could be part of the problem that I was having controlling pests like scale and mealybug. I am happy to report that with the stronger growth, my inspection yesterday found only 2 orchids with residual pests. :clap:


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## Rick (Jul 20, 2013)

So far so good Shady:clap:

At our recent society show and tell table I saw several phalaes from our members that had new big leaves that looked like they had been using one of those leaf shine products. But they aren't using those products, and seem to be also seeing the effects of their new fert programs.


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## shadytrake (Jul 27, 2013)

I am happy to report that my Bulbophyllum tingabarinum has six spikes! It has consistently bloomed one pitiful spike for the last 3 years. This is so exciting! Also my C. harrisoniana 'Volcano Queen' just popped buds through the sheath!


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## Rick (Jul 28, 2013)

shadytrake said:


> I am happy to report that my Bulbophyllum tingabarinum has six spikes! It has consistently bloomed one pitiful spike for the last 3 years. This is so exciting! Also my C. harrisoniana 'Volcano Queen' just popped buds through the sheath!



You are having a great year Melisa:clap::clap:

Are you getting new growth on the tingabarinum?

I had lots of bulbos refuse to grow at a decent rate for years (let alone bloom) under high K, but respond very quickly with the fert change.

In particular a B rothschildianum and B.wendlandianum adding only a growth or two a year and never blooming. Now they are total weeds, and I had multiple spikes on the wendlandianum this spring.


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## shadytrake (Jul 28, 2013)

Rick said:


> You are having a great year Melisa:clap::clap:
> 
> Are you getting new growth on the tingabarinum?
> 
> ...



Hi Rick,

All of the Bulbos have fantastic new growth but I did move them from mounts to baskets with a moss/orchiata mixture. They needed more water.

I did leave the tingabarinum mounted but I moved it to a shadier location with more misting. So I can't really include them in the K-Lite experiment. But I will take the results with just the water change on these.


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