# Phrag andreettae leaf bronzing



## MorandiWine (Mar 25, 2014)

I recently purchased several andreettae from Peruflora and noticed that most of them seem to have some bronze coloration on the margins of the leaves. I will take pictures tomorrow and post them. Just curious if anyone else has had the same experience.
BTW they seem to be growing really well, all plants with new leaves and new growths poking through.

Thanks

Tyler


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## NYEric (Mar 25, 2014)

Photos.


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## MorandiWine (Mar 25, 2014)

Here are the pictures as promised.

So there is not any rot at all, and like I said the plants are growing really fast since I purchased them. I keep them in a moderate light area with other Phrags mostly besseae and some Parvi's. Temps are 55-80 right now with good humidity. Potted in NZSM, Hydroton, chunk carbon, and a touch a leaf humus. Watered twice a week and fertilized once a week with MSU, Humic Acid and Kelp extract. That fert combo has served me quite well and growth has been explosive on pretty much every plant I grow.

Thoughts?

Tyler


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## NYEric (Mar 25, 2014)

Over-exposure?


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## MorandiWine (Mar 25, 2014)

Could be, but wouldnt the besseae show stress?


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## NYEric (Mar 25, 2014)

IDK. Ask Kyle or Eteson, who have much more experience with them.


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## Kyle (Mar 25, 2014)

I've never seen anything like that. Could be light. If found andreettea to be relatively easy to grow.

Kyle


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## MorandiWine (Mar 25, 2014)

I guess I will put half in less light and see what happens. Yes, so far andreettae seems to be very easy to grow. Hopefully some of these are decent to use for breeding.

Thanks

Tyler


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## Rick (Mar 25, 2014)

At what strength are you fertilizing and what is the TDS of your regular irrigation water?


May want to run a lower fert rate for these little guys. Can you measure pot TDS?


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## MorandiWine (Mar 25, 2014)

Tds from RO is 1


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## dodidoki (Mar 25, 2014)

Maybe overhydration....affected species are bessae, fischerii , schlimii and andreetae. Be very careful with waterings, they need very strong air movement just on day of- and day after watering. In opposite case you will see that few or more oily spots appear on leaves , they will turn to bronze like dry spots within few days. Cause is overhydration, intracellular oedema, if it is severe, leads to death of cells ( dry spots), if only mild, spots will diappear.


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## MorandiWine (Mar 25, 2014)

The fert concentrations are:
MSU - 3/4tsp per 2 gallons
Humic Acid - 5ml per 1 gallon
Kelp - 5ml per 2 gallons

Interesting about the overhydration! Have not really thought of that since all reports that I have encountered is that the care is similar to besseae just slightly warmer. They DO dry out very slightly between waterings, not to the point of complete dryness but mostly dry. The air flow is quite high being a big believer in high flow. The bronzing to me is less spotting but more like a hazing of the leaves. Surprisingly there has not been any dry tips other than the ones that they arrived with from Peru, all the new growth has been clean of any dry tips or dry patches.

Thanks again for the help and suggestions.

Tyler


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## Rick (Mar 25, 2014)

Looks to me like a bit of anthocyanin production. Which could be a lot of different factors from dehydration to imbalance of P or Mg.

Do you have fischeri? How are they doing in comparison?

You may have some interesting pot dynamics going on. I wouldn't add any more chemical to the mix, but dilute more.


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## MorandiWine (Mar 25, 2014)

No fischeri at the moment. I did and sold them off to look for better clones. They did this a little bit, but not as much as this.

Tyler


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## Rick (Mar 25, 2014)

MorandiWine said:


> Have not really thought of that since all reports that I have encountered is that the care is similar to besseae just slightly warmer. They DO dry out very slightly between waterings, not to the point of complete dryness but mostly dry.



Have you been keeping track of the PK thread?

Rains every day in the winter and almost every day in the summer.

Besseae growing at the bottom of wet seeps. 

These guys need lots of water. Low TDS. The straight RO water use probably doesn't help much to get excess K out of the substrate. If you add in a bit of tap water to your RO water that would help.


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## eteson (Mar 26, 2014)

IMO bronzing is caused by low temperatures. andreettae is a warm growing species and do not grow well under 18°C. If your besseae plants are growing fine... it is too cool for andreettae. I think that temperature is the key factor growing this species. Keep them between 18 and 28°C and yo will see how start recovering. Also andreettae is highly tolerant to overfeeding and to underfeeding and you can use a wide spectrum of fertilizers with good results if you can keep temperature OK.


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## dodidoki (Mar 26, 2014)

Rick said:


> Have you been keeping track of the PK thread?
> 
> Rains every day in the winter and almost every day in the summer.
> 
> ...



Hello, Rick! Overhdration is a valid problem, especially on ficheriis and bessaes. You have right about raining in nature, but I read few articles before about their habitat. Writer noted that wind almost swept his hat from his head.....I know their need much water but need VERY strong air movement!!!!! I always put my fischeriis just front of fans after waterings for 2 days....last time I forgot to do this, and overhydrated spots appeared within 6 huors!!!!!! I go on your way, you know it well, I use K-lite fertilizer with weak CC on every waterings ( 60-70 ppm total).


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## tomkalina (Mar 26, 2014)

I agree with Eliseo. This leaf bronzing also occurred in our own andreettaes and fischeris when night temps fell below 60F. It is not a cool grower like besseae.


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## Rick (Mar 28, 2014)

That would be good to see if a temp increase would change that.

55F is 5 degree F lower than I let my GH get too.

18C is almost 65 F so that would be a significant increase to get those plants to a happier range.

That would probably change the water uptake and transfer dynamics inside the plant as well as the media.


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## Rick (Mar 28, 2014)

dodidoki said:


> Hello, Rick! Overhdration is a valid problem, especially on ficheriis and bessaes. You have right about raining in nature, but I read few articles before about their habitat. Writer noted that wind almost swept his hat from his head.....I know their need much water but need VERY strong air movement!!!!! I always put my fischeriis just front of fans after waterings for 2 days



I may take the airflow in my GH for granted. After I come back inside after being in my GH, my wife says I have Einstein hair So definitely pretty breezy all the time in my GH.


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## MorandiWine (Mar 29, 2014)

What about having the pots on a warming mat with a thermostat instead of heating the entire greenhouse more? Would warmer potting media compensate for cooler air around the leaves?

Thanks again

Tyler


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## cnycharles (Mar 29, 2014)

Yes. Some people put heating pipes directly underneath their benches to save on heating cists


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## Bjorn (Mar 29, 2014)

I do that to squeeze an extra temperature zone out of my GH


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## Paph_LdyMacBeth (Mar 29, 2014)

You know, I've had this happen to my besseae and hanne popow. I really had no clue what it was.


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## tomkalina (Mar 29, 2014)

Haven't tried warming mats yet but they seem like a good idea....... Anyone able to recommend a source for these?


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## Bjorn (Mar 29, 2014)

I use those cables that are meant for floors 100W/m2(?) plus a thermostat just in case and not to usee excess electricity. Gain 1-2C(3-4F) plus a bit more at the roots.


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## Rick (Mar 29, 2014)

tomkalina said:


> I agree with Eliseo. This leaf bronzing also occurred in our own andreettaes and fischeris when night temps fell below 60F. It is not a cool grower like besseae.



Now to play devils advocate, have you repeated the cold temp observation since changing your feeding/watering regime?

The other considerations.

Is the bronzing due to actual inability of the plant enzyme systems being incapable of operating properly at 55 vs 60. Is this something like a fall foliage response to suck out chlorophyll and leave behind the carotenoids, or do we generally restrict water (more than normal) to our plants for fear of root rot when the temps are colder.?

The answer could be both, but just throwing that out since I've heard a lot of stories in the last few years about what growers do (almost subconsciously) due to old learned habits and preconceived notions. Old habits die hard.


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## tomkalina (Mar 30, 2014)

Rick,

I've been using K-Lite now for over a year - lately alternating with Wuxal Ca after reading one of Eliseo's ST posts- and there's been a repotting cycle since changing over, so I'd think the effect of the "old growing habits" might have been minimized by now. I'm shooting for 20 ppm N with both fertilizers and fertilizing with every irrigation at this time of year. It's really too early to say whether cool temps are the only leaf bronzing cause, though, it's been only 6 weeks since making the change to 4-5* F warmer night temps..... but the bronzing seems to be fading.


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## Rick (Mar 30, 2014)

tomkalina said:


> Rick,
> 
> It's really too early to say whether cool temps are the only leaf bronzing cause, though, it's been only 6 weeks since making the change to 4-5* F warmer night temps..... but the bronzing seems to be fading.



So you are seeing bronzing this winter? It's been exceptionally cold this past winter.

I don't have andreeta, but do have a couple of fischeri. I've been able to keep the lows no less than 60F (with probably a lot fewer nights at 60 than up in Chicagao way too). But haven't seen any bronzing in my phrags.


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## Stone (Mar 30, 2014)

Have you had a look at the roots Tyler? Clean new tips? The plant looks generally unvigorous (if thats a word)


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## MorandiWine (Mar 31, 2014)

The plants are actively growing sending up new growths and new leaves. Just got them in Feb so dont have much to track as far as cycles. 


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## MorandiWine (Mar 31, 2014)

I ordered a 40 x 20 mat and a controller from Hydro-farm should arrive this week. Keep you posted


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## eteson (Mar 31, 2014)

Please share with us your experience. I wish i could find a cooling math for my besseaes!

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## NYEric (Mar 31, 2014)

Its called air conditioning!


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## Chicago Chad (Mar 31, 2014)

> Haven't tried warming mats yet but they seem like a good idea....... Anyone able to recommend a source for these?


Tom- would go to Brew and Grow down the street from you in Bolingbrook. Although the place is set up for Cannabis cultivation, they know there stuff. They get most of their products though Sunlight Supply systems. They should be able to tell you the increased temps involved with each and some can be manually controlled to help dial them in. The stuff at reptile shops are designed for just that and fetch a much higher price for the sizes.

They also get a lot of other useful products that I often have to mail order otherwise. Plus they you can do tasting of their microbrews while you shop unless you have moved onto only spirits.


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## tomkalina (Mar 31, 2014)

Thanks for the info., Chad. I moved into "only spirits" decades ago  Current fave is Glenmorangie Quinta Ruban.


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## Bjorn (Apr 2, 2014)

I have also noticed bronze leaves on my andrettae; also having too low temperatures (10C min) Have moved it now


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## MorandiWine (Apr 2, 2014)

Here we go!







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