# Does phrag besseae = dalessandroi?



## koshki (Feb 26, 2011)

In drooling over and researching phrag photos in OrchidWiz, I've run across a few plants that have dalessandroi in it.

When I check the Bakers' culture sheets on the dalessandroi, it says it's a synonym for besseae. But if, for example, I look at the make up of La Hougette, it lists both besseae and dalessandroi as separate elements.

So, are they the same thing or are they different?


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## Shiva (Feb 26, 2011)

Depends on who you talk to these days. I've always considered them different but taxonomists have lumped them in the same species. And I don't care what they say in this case.


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## Marc (Feb 26, 2011)

According to kew Phrag. dalessandroi is a synonim for Phrag besseae var. dalessandroi.

http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/namedetail.do?name_id=152845

http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/namedetail.do?name_id=152860


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## W. Beetus (Feb 26, 2011)

I think they look fairly similar, but I believe I read somewhere that there was some genetic testing done to d'allesandroi that concluded that it was different enough from besseae to be considered a different species. I think it was something involving the number of chromosomes in d'allesandroi vs. besseae.


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## Ray (Feb 26, 2011)

I asked the same question of Hadley Cash a couple of weeks ago. He told me that besseae flavum will have single, successive flowers, while dalessandroi will have branched spikes.


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## koshki (Feb 26, 2011)

Hmm, clear as mud!

Is it safe to assume that they have the same cultural requirements? What about size?


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## ohio-guy (Feb 26, 2011)

I understand that another big difference is growth habit, Besseae tends to climb out of a pot on successive growths, while delessadroi tends to grow in more of a clump. I had heard similar information about chromosome counts, but I don't recall where.


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## NYEric (Feb 26, 2011)

They are similar but deff not the same. I personally don't think being stolonous vs gowing clumping and nnon-stolonous is enough of a distinguishing factor. the form of dalessendroi is different, pointy, drooping lateral petals, the orange/yellow interior flame, etc. Get one of each!


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## Rick (Feb 26, 2011)

I agree with Eric on this one. I haven't heard anything (yet) on genetic/chromosomal differences, but I wouldn't be surprised is there turned out to be a few genes different.

The flower form is consistently different between the two, and the branching spike of d'alesandroi is also significantly different.

I don't think the morphological differences necessarily warrant species status, but I could certainly go for varietal status.

Synonymy at species level does not mean that have to be identical.

I think besseae generally has superior color and flower form, but d'alesandroi's capacity for branching spikes can be a great show.


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## koshki (Feb 26, 2011)

Learned a new word today: stolon. Yes, Eric, I need both! :wink:

As for culture: the same?


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## NYEric (Feb 27, 2011)

As far as I know. Tom Kalina would be the one to ask.


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## TyroneGenade (Feb 27, 2011)

A while back there was a thread showing bessae in the wild and several flowering plants were shown. Amonst the small selection of plants there were typical "bessae" flowers/plants and typical "dalessandroi" flowers/plants and then several variations inbetween. Sadly I can't find the thread.


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## Kavanaru (Feb 27, 2011)

ohio-guy said:


> I understand that another big difference is growth habit, Besseae tends to climb out of a pot on successive growths, while delessadroi tends to grow in more of a clump. I had heard similar information about chromosome counts, but I don't recall where.



If I recall it correctly, I think I have read somewhere here in ST that besseae from Peru also has a cumpling (not stoloniferous) growth habit...


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## tomkalina (Feb 27, 2011)

Current thinking is that it's a separate species. Phrag. d'alessandroi has 28 chromosomes compared to besseae's 24, the stolons of d'alessandroi emerge close to the preceding growth while besseae stolons tend to climb, d'alessandroi inflorescences tend to branch as a rule, besseae does not. Our `Fox Valley' CHM/AOS clone( the source of our seedlings) was examined and identified as being authentic by the species discoverer, Dr. Cal Dodson.

Thanks,


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## JC94030 (Feb 28, 2011)

Aside from taxanomic discussion, one note for Koshki: a lot of Phrag. d'alessandroi offered in the trade are not authentic to being that species or variety. 
FV's would be correct.
If the C-some numbers are different, that would indeed suggest d'a is a separate species from besseae.
JC


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## tomkalina (Feb 28, 2011)

Here are a couple flower photos for comparison. The narrow, reflexing petals on the photo showing a branching inflorescence belong to a true Phrag. d'alessandroi. The rounder, flater flower form belongs to Phrag. besseae. There's a rumor that the reason why the RHS is reluctant to upgrade d'alessandroi to species status is that the original primary hybrids made by the Eric Young Foundation were made with d'alessandroi, not besseae. If true, this would make all those primary names invalid and create a mountain of paper work for the RHS because all those primaries using d'alessandroi would have to be re-named. Anyone ST'ers here from the Eric Young Orchid Foundation to address this issue? 

Thanks,


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## koshki (Feb 28, 2011)

Wow, and I thought this was a question with a simple answer!


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## Erythrone (Feb 28, 2011)

And for cultivation...

The same???


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## tomkalina (Feb 28, 2011)

We grow the two in similar conditions. Approx 1,000 fc light level, wet, and intermediate to cool temps with good air movement. They really resent being dried out between waterings, so we typically place the compots in r/o or rain water until the seedlings are ready for 2 1/4" rose pots - then we water frequently. Any seedlings appearing to struggle in 2 1/4" pots are placed back in water.


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## Rick (Feb 28, 2011)

Tom There doesn't seem to be much in the way of geographical separation of these two taxa. There may be some elevation difference with d'alesandroi coming from lower elevations. Is it a bit more tolerant of higher temps than besseae? 

Do you know if anyone has conducted any in situ pollination studies?

There may be other characters such as blooming season or things outside of our perception like UV pattern or fragrance that may promote population/genetic isolation.

The two taxa seem to hybridize readily (and compatibly) in the GH, so there needs to be something that keeps them genetically isolated.


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## tomkalina (Mar 1, 2011)

Hi Rick,

These are all good questions; I wish I had definitive answers! It's possible the original population of d'alessandroi was located at a higher elevation than besseae near Chiguinda, Ecuador and the swarm migrated downhill, inter-breeding with besseae to create the natural hybrid Jersey. I believe the original population of d'alessandroi was very small, and I'd be surprised if any of that population remains. I think very little that's being sold nowadays marked "d'alessandroi" is the true species. As far as a pollinator, I've heard stories that both species were hummingbird pollinated, but I doubt this because there doesn't seem to be any "reward" involved. They are probably pollinated by an insect; possibly a beatle attracted by a fragrance we can't detect. I don't think a pollination has ever been recorded. Also, I don't think there is much temperature differential between these habitats because of their close proximity; possibly less than 2-3 F; certainly not enough to cause me to grow them differently.


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## Rick (Mar 1, 2011)

Ya not sure about the hummingbird pollination either. Despite the red color, the structure of slippers isn't really amendable to a bird (which is too smart to do the same dumb thing twice for no reward) which would probably target the main entrance of the pouch, and not come into contact with either pollen or stigma.

Sounds like a good grad student project to put some of that sticky trap stuff on some flowers and see what they catch! (Hopefully not hummingbirds)


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## FrankRC (Mar 1, 2011)

The original phrag d'alessandroi habitat is far removed from Chiguinda, Ecuador and the species does, in fact, still exist in its natural habitat. I have observed the pollinator of this species and it is definitely not a hummingbird. Culture information as reported in this thread is not consistent with my observations or experience growing true D'alessandroi. True D'Alessandroi likes to get a bit dry between waterings and has a tendency to rot if kept as wet as Besseae likes. Moving plants of D'alessandroi into a more open mix that allows for some drying between waterings has led to spectacular results under 2 different sets of culture. Perhaps this explains its rarity in cultivation. Its natural habitat is not as wet as Besseae. Besseae likes constant seepage on exposed granite cliffs, while D'Alessandroi prefers more boisserianum type of conditions, growing among grasses and other plants in a habitat that tends to be a bit dryer.

In my experience, based upon what is going on fifteen years of observation of both species in cultivation and in situ, using the growth habit as a taxonomic guide is foolish. While true that D'alessandroi will branch more freely, both species can branch extensively, besseae more so when allowed to form multi-growth plants and left undivided for several years or more. Additionally unsupported is the contention that one species tends to produce new growth in clumps as opposed to longer stolons. Once presented with a sufficient sample size this misconception becomes apparent. This trait depends more on the individual than the species.

The true distinction between the species can easily be observed in mature plants of D'alessandroi. Vegetatively the plants are ENORMOUS as compared to Besseae, with leaves 2 to 3 times as long and wide. It is not uncommon for mature plants of D'alessandroi to have leaves 18 inch's long and 3 inches wide. The cultural discrepancies can be eliminated as a control as my observations have been made with wild plants of both species growing side by side after several years in cultivation. Also, D'alessandroi flowers have unique down-swept petals.

While cross pollination is impossible to rule out, the true habitat of D'alessandroi has been stable for years and remains a closely guarded secret. Besseae, on the other hand, tends to have more inherent variability and has been known to "pop up" in previously well explored area's in central and southern Ecuador. The trade winds are unpredictable as the wind swirls around the mountains, through the valleys and given Besseae's fondness for exposed cliff surfaces new populations of besseae have been observed to establish on recently cleared cliff surface with recent blast marks. The same cannot be said of D'alessandroi.

I would caution any serious phragmipedium enthusiast against reliance on opinion and conjecture concerning D'alessandroi and Besseae. Cultural and taxonomic opinion in the absence of sufficient knowledge, exposure and information has led us to the point we are at now, where confusion and supposition rule the day and phragmipedium enthusiasts are left staring at a species plant or registered hybrid and left asking themselves exactly what is it that I am growing...


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## Mathias (Mar 1, 2011)

Very interesting information - thanks for posting! Do you know if any of the local vendors (Ecuagenera, Mundiflora) are aware of this distinction and are making an effort to offer the real Phrag d'alessandroi? Both vendors are selling this species.


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## Shiva (Mar 1, 2011)

tomkalina said:


> Hi Rick,
> 
> They are probably pollinated by an insect; possibly a *beatle* attracted by a fragrance we can't detect.



Which one Tom? There were four of them. oke:


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## Shiva (Mar 1, 2011)

FrankRC
Thanks for the tip about growing dalessandroi drier. I just lost one to rot. Now I know why.


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## Kavanaru (Mar 1, 2011)

Shiva said:


> Which one Tom? There were four of them. oke:



:rollhappy:


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## Kyle (Mar 1, 2011)

Mathias said:


> Very interesting information - thanks for posting! Do you know if any of the local vendors (Ecuagenera, Mundiflora) are aware of this distinction and are making an effort to offer the real Phrag d'alessandroi? Both vendors are selling this species.



Ecuagenera does have some real dalessandrois. They do thier best to keep them seperated from thier besseas. They are in a different greenhouse. I have attached a picture comparing the leaves of the two species. I don't know about Mundiflora.

Hi Frank. Haven't heard from you in a while.







Kyle


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## koshki (Mar 1, 2011)

Shiva said:


> Which one Tom? There were four of them. oke:



That took me far too long to get! :clap:


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## tomkalina (Mar 1, 2011)

George or John, I'm sure  Always delighted with your contributions, Frank. Any chance you memorialized the pollinations with a photo?


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## koshki (Mar 1, 2011)

Frank, thanks for your explanation.

In terms of my example, La Hougette, which is (supposedly) 50% d'allesandroi, 25% sargentianum, and 12.5% besseae and schlimii each, how do you decide whether to grow it with wet feet or dry??


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## Rick (Mar 1, 2011)

FrankRC said:


> I have observed the pollinator of this species and it is definitely not a hummingbird.



Thank's Frank. We pretty much discounted the supposition that hummingbirds were the pollinators.

So what is the polinator? What is the pollinator for besseae?

Did you publish this info anywhere (readily accesable) so we wouldn't have to really on supposition?


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