# censorship???



## Greenthings (Feb 25, 2007)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok you guys, you need to move your argument to something a little more private. This is not an appropriate place for that.
-blake
__________________
now with 50% more alcohol...

Blake, 

Jerry and I were having a discussion about flowering times of Phragmipedium
wallisii and the reason why he receiveds his Pk hybrids sooner than
someone else.

I like an explanation why you figure this warrants closure of a thread,
for it is part and parcel of this department.

I joined this forum for I was told there is no undue censorship

as on the other one many of you quit. Now I am not so certain.

This closure is absolutely ridiculous and it puts you on the same censored level as the other one. 


Peter


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## gonewild (Feb 25, 2007)

As a participating member I object to closing the informative thread.
I was going to make a post.

Are you going to close the thread about the new Prime Agra also?
Who slammed Ray?

No censorship as the founder *Phrag* intended.


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## bwester (Feb 25, 2007)

This was NOT censorship. The "informative" thread was becoming objectionable to other members of the forum. To follow-up on the complaints, I merely closed that particular thread and recommended that the argument be taken elsewhere. I did not delete anything or ban anyone. However, it was becoming less and less informative and more of a pissing match between Peter and Jason. In regards to the comments on Ray, I was offering feedback on a vendor that I have bought from multiple times and feel that I have mistreated by. It is a completely different situation and I think you know that. If you have a problem with the decision I made, take it up with an administrator.


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## Greenthings (Feb 25, 2007)

To the administrators of Slipper Talk,

I expect an apology from Blake

I request from the rest of you, that you unlock the thread which Bake locked for no good reason at all. In that thread a civil discussion was still going on, no accusations were made, and I know I spoke the truth, as I always do.

That is exactly what this group wants to hear. 



If there was some outside pressure on Blake, you better get to the bottom of it. If it was his own sick need for power, he needs a kick in the ass and be
relieved from his responsibiloities at Slipper Talk


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## Greenthings (Feb 25, 2007)

Blake,

You have not even read the post that you closed. It was not a discussion with Jason, but with Jerry Fischer.

If there were objections from the scubscribers, then let them tell us all in a post in our faces, rather than doing it anonomously behind our backs . That is being cowards. You as an adminstrator, or whatever the heck you are, should know better than to act on the urging of cowards that dare not post or show their face.Those people should never have joined this forum.

Jerry Fischer, I do not know you very well. I do not consider you a coward
I just hope that it was not you who requested the thread closed.

Blake, I think you should excuse yourself from this position, you just can't handle it.

Peter

I


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## likespaphs (Feb 25, 2007)

perhaps i also didn't read it closely enough, but i thought it was a lot of throwing poo at others. i don't really think that there was going to be any satisfying outcome for anyone from that thread and actually kinda think that it was a good idea to close it....


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## Greenthings (Feb 25, 2007)

bwester said:


> This was NOT censorship. The "informative" thread was becoming objectionable to other members of the forum. To follow-up on the complaints, I merely closed that particular thread and recommended that the argument be taken elsewhere. I did not delete anything or ban anyone. However, it was becoming less and less informative and more of a pissing match between Peter and Jason. In regards to the comments on Ray, I was offering feedback on a vendor that I have bought from multiple times and feel that I have mistreated by. It is a completely different situation and I think you know that. If you have a problem with the decision I made, take it up with an administrator.




Right, you make a lot of sense Blake. :-( :-( You close a thread on flowering times of a species but it is ok to say that you were mistreated by a vendor.

Tell you what, I do not believe there was a single complaint, the closure of the thread emerged from your own weird sense of what is right and what is wrong. Get real !!


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## Greenthings (Feb 25, 2007)

likespaphs said:


> perhaps i also didn't read it closely enough, but i thought it was a lot of throwing poo at others. i don't really think that there was going to be any satisfying outcome for anyone from that thread and actually kinda think that it was a good idea to close it....




Well if nothing else came out this thread, it is good to know where you stand, likespaphs. You tell me where I threw poo at anyone in my last Post with Jerry Fischer.


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## kentuckiense (Feb 25, 2007)

Ok, I'm going to put on my moderator hat.

Personally, I disagree with Blake's decision to close that thread. I don't feel closing the thread was needed. However, as a fellow moderator, I'm going to respect his decision. Heather or PHRAG can reopen the thread if that is what they want.

This part is directly squarely at you, Peter. I've found your posts about this whole saga to be interesting. I'm glad you're here presenting what you know. However, stop telling us how to run this forum. You demand that Blake be removed as a moderator? Now you sound no better than those that called for your banning at SOF. And please, do not expect an apology from anyone.


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## bwester (Feb 25, 2007)

Are you done with your tantrum, Peter? I mean, seriously man, grow up. I didnt censor you or violate your rights or club any baby seals. I merely suggested that you carry on whatever it is that you were doing somewhere more private, like in an email or pm. I stand by what I did, since I think it was in the best interest of the forum and I will NOT under any circumstances apologize to you. Get over it, this too shall pass.


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## gonewild (Feb 25, 2007)

bwester said:


> This was NOT censorship. The "informative" thread was becoming objectionable to other members of the forum.



Who? where is ther posts objecting? They can always choose not to read the thread can't they?



> To follow-up on the complaints, I merely closed that particular thread and recommended that the argument be taken elsewhere. I did not delete anything or ban anyone.



A big part of the thread was about leaf shape, seed maturation, and growth difference. You did block access to those portions of the thread and put the information under a different light.



> However, it was becoming less and less informative



It actually was becoming very informative for many people worldwide who actually have invested in kovachii flasks and plants.



> and more of a pissing match between Peter and Jason.



So what? They both big enough to manage their own zippers.



> In regards to the comments on Ray, I was offering feedback on a vendor that I have bought from multiple times and feel that I have mistreated by. It is a completely different situation and I think you know that.



I appreciate your comments about Ray and his product. I think the subject is important and needs to be talked about because it effects orchid culture. But I bet Ray does not agree with you and would like the thread closed. You seem to be the only one to report an issue with it so why can not Ray claim you are being objectionable? (btw please come back to that thread)

I don't think it is completely different from the kovachii thread. I think both threads have merit because they affect orchid growing. 




> If you have a problem with the decision I made, take it up with an administrator.



To close the thread based on your opinion is censorship and the forum founders promised this would never happen. Today it did.

Gain respect, admit error and correct it, are you not an administrator?


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## likespaphs (Feb 25, 2007)

as usual i mis-spoke/wrote...


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## gonewild (Feb 25, 2007)

likespaphs said:


> perhaps i also didn't read it closely enough, but i thought it was a lot of throwing poo at others. i don't really think that there was going to be any satisfying outcome for anyone from that thread and actually kinda think that it was a good idea to close it....



Perhaps to those who have not invested time, effort and or money into a kovachii plant it might seem like poo throwing. But maybe you would want to read all this had you bought a kovachii flask for $1080 and the seedlings never grew, died in flask, or now may not even be kovachii. 

Closing the thread is a disservice to kovachii owners who may be less than happy with what they have.

I personally want to hear both sides of all arguments so I can form my own opinions. I don't want the teacher telling me I can't read a book if it is not pre approved.


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## Heather (Feb 25, 2007)

*Okay, everybody, deeeep breath.*

Forgive me, I actually had important things to do today with orchids and was not around for all the drama. 

I have just read this thread, and the message it was related too and I'd like to respond to a few things. 

I cannot always be here, nor can any of the other members of the admin. team (which includes Blake). Blake was around and emailed me that he thought things were getting heated. I emailed back saying that if people were making threats or there was name-calling going on, people should be reprimanded. He felt closing the thread was the thing to do, hoping to diffuse what had been a heated situation earlier in the week. 

Upon returning home and having a chance to read the last message posted by Peter Croezen, I agree that I don't think it was inflamatory. 
No one "puts pressure" on the admin. team. We try to make decisions that are best for the community as a whole. Today, no one was around to make decisions except for Blake and he did a fine job, and we've all now discussed the decision and have decided to re-open the thread. 

I will be re-opening the thread. 

I'd like to remind people of a few things. 

1) Read the rules. Treat members with respect. Speak to others as you would like to be spoken to.
2) This forum is about FREE SPEECH, but nothing was deleted or censored here, if that sort of thing was tolerated here, this thread would have been deleted before anyone saw the first message! 

3) and most importantly.
*Fer Christsake! THEY'RE PLANTS people!* Chill out a little!


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## gonewild (Feb 25, 2007)

Censorship lesson 101.....

Here are two quotes from a famous person. 
Can anyone tell use who wrote this?
Can anyone tell us how these quotes do not apply to the closed thread?

"This forum was started with the hope that it would become a place that orchid enthusiasts would feel FREE to say pretty much whatever they wanted with very few limitations to that freedom"

"If you have a problem with another member, you are FREE to voice your problem with them right out in the open. If you can't say it directly to them, don't say it at all."


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## likespaphs (Feb 25, 2007)

i can understand your points. if i had read it more closely i would have seen it for what it was...
although i didn't ask that it be closed, it seemed that it was descending to poo throwing and that it was questioning the credibility of some people here in the u.s. which is why closing it was no big deal to me. i take it that's not the case... but then again, i have nothing at stake... no seedlings nor much interest in kovachii other than seeing them in bloom.


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## Greenthings (Feb 25, 2007)

Thanks Heather for putting the thread back on this forum

I love freedom. You understand that is what this was all about.


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## likespaphs (Feb 25, 2007)

i also don't think blake was wrong for closing it. it was his call and he did what he thought was right.... we'll call it a time out.


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## Greenthings (Feb 25, 2007)

bwester said:


> Are you done with your tantrum, Peter? I mean, seriously man, grow up. I didnt censor you or violate your rights or club any baby seals. I merely suggested that you carry on whatever it is that you were doing somewhere more private, like in an email or pm. I stand by what I did, since I think it was in the best interest of the forum and I will NOT under any circumstances apologize to you. Get over it, this too shall pass.




Blake, please send me a blank e-mail so I can send you a very private message. orchids at golden dot net.

peter


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## gonewild (Feb 25, 2007)

likespaphs said:


> i also don't think blake was wrong for closing it. it was his call and he did what he thought was right.... we'll call it a time out.



I appreciate you voiced your opinion on the censorship subject. 

I believe Blake had his reasons but I think he acted hastily in closing the thread based on the forums stated foundation.

There is no need for a time out. This is an adult forum.


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## Heather (Feb 25, 2007)

Enough. It's over. Can we get back to discussing plants please?


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## gonewild (Feb 25, 2007)

likespaphs said:


> it seemed that it was descending to poo throwing and that it was questioning the credibility of some people here in the u.s. which is why closing it was no big deal to me.




Who would dare question the credibility of some people in the u.s.?!
Especially about poo throwing?
 
(just kidding)


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## PHRAG (Feb 25, 2007)

Why do I get the feeling I am getting dragged into this whether I want to be involved or not?


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## gonewild (Feb 25, 2007)

Heather said:


> Enough. It's over. Can we get back to discussing plants please?



I think you should close this thread about censorship.
oke:


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## Heather (Feb 25, 2007)

PHRAG said:


> Why do I get the feeling I am getting dragged into this whether I want to be involved or not?



Welcome to the world of administration, dear.


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## gonewild (Feb 25, 2007)

PHRAG said:


> Why do I get the feeling I am getting dragged into this whether I want to be involved or not?



Because you posted free advice.
:evil:


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Feb 25, 2007)

Here's how I see it:

This past year we've seen way too many times where a situation has arose and we ignored it not wanting to have to be the "forum police". Then after ignoring it for a few days or weeks, things finally get out of hand and we have to take action on it. WE DO NOT WANT TO BE FORUM POLICE!! It's to the point now that we can usually recognize the beginnings of this process. Many of us saw what we thought was the begining of another one of those times, but couldn't be around to moderate it due to our other commitments.

Locks can be unlocked, think of it as a cooling down period, not as a limit to your free speech. A moderator saw things getting out of hand and took action on it that was not permanent in hopes of nipping it in the bud. If we wanted to control your speech the thread would have been deleted and members found to be "controversial" would have been banned. THAT DID NOT HAPPEN AND NEVER WILL.

This forum IS founded on free speech. On the same token though, this is not PooThrow.com or FreeToTroll.com. We want ALL people to feel welcome and if someone is going to make others feel unwelcome or affect their enjoyment of this hobby then some kind of action will be taken. I am glad such action wasn't necessary, but I have to admit I did not see a positive conclusion to it down the road either. I hope now that the thread is reopened we are not proven wrong in reopening it.

Jon


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## PHRAG (Feb 25, 2007)

Dammit Jon, how come you can make so much sense!

I think school has melted my brain.


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## gonewild (Feb 25, 2007)

Jon in SW Ohio said:


> Here's how I see it:
> 
> This past year we've seen way too many times where a situation has arose and we ignored it not wanting to have to be the "forum police". Then after ignoring it for a few days or weeks, things finally get out of hand and we have to take action on it. WE DO NOT WANT TO BE FORUM POLICE!! It's to the point now that we can usually recognize the beginnings of this process. Many of us saw what we thought was the begining of another one of those times, but couldn't be around to moderate it due to our other commitments.
> 
> ...



I respect your position. I would add the following only because I think it important and in no way mean it to be critical.

But tell me how what was written by either side of the "poo throwing" would cause a forum member to not enjoy the hobby? Is it not easy enough to not just read a thread?

It is not really freedom of speech if a person must worry about what big brother thinks. If you are going to sit in judgement and use your descression as to what is the difference between insulting and informative is you are Forum Police, like it or not.

Some rules were laid down for forum use and actually I never felt the need to read them because I won't cross my own line. But I did read John's free advice recently and I really appreciate his statement: 

"If you have a problem with another member, you are FREE to voice your problem with them right out in the open. If you can't say it directly to them, don't say it at all."

This foundation is why I take my time to read and write at SlipperTalk, I want to hear orchid news and I want to hear unfiltered content. 

To call a "time out" can completely "censor" a fact that was about to be revealed in any subject.

Carry on the good forum work.


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## bwester (Feb 25, 2007)

Thanks Jon, that sums it up perfectly.


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## bwester (Feb 25, 2007)

Greenthings said:


> Blake, please send me a blank e-mail so I can send you a very private message. orchids at golden dot net.
> 
> peter



A blank email??? Are you serious??? I'm gonna pass on giving you my email address. How about you just send me a pm, or do you need me to send you a blank one of those too?


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## Greenthings (Feb 25, 2007)

gonewild said:


> I think you should close this thread about censorship.
> oke:




Heather, I started this thread, whatever protocol must be followed I do not care, frankly. If you decide to remove the thread completely, there will be no objection from me. If you wish to leave it in place, that is fine too.

peter


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## Heather (Feb 25, 2007)

Thanks Peter, 

I appreciate that, however, this is the sort of thread we leave around so that poeple can understand how we work here. It's a place for people to voice opinions. Nothing today has changed about this forum. That's the bottom line.


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## Greenthings (Feb 25, 2007)

Heather said:


> Thanks Peter,
> 
> I appreciate that, however, this is the sort of thread we leave around so that poeple can understand how we work here. It's a place for people to voice opinions. Nothing today has changed about this forum. That's the bottom line.




Excellent,

peter


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## SlipperFan (Feb 25, 2007)

OMG -- I'm away for two days working at an orchid show, and I come back to...

I feel compelled to weigh in:
1. I didn't see any "poo" in anyone's posts (I've read them all). 
2. I didn't see that things were starting to get "out of hand."
3. This kovachii thing is very serious. There are lots of reputations and money at stake, to say nothing of the species itself. If we can't hear/read all sides of the situation here, where will be be able to???
4. I'm very happy to see that the "powers that be" on this forum have decided that censorship, closing of contentious forums, etc. are not appropriate on this forum. The openness and information exchange that occurs here is why I always come here first. I truly hope this never is forgotten.
5. Heather, thank you for being open and tolerant. You do a good job of gently reminding us that we are responsible adults.
6. Thanks, Lance. I agree with, "This foundation is why I take my time to read and write at SlipperTalk, I want to hear orchid news and I want to hear unfiltered content. 
To call a "time out" can completely "censor" a fact that was about to be revealed in any subject."
7. Blake: I think Peter is not that familiar with all the features of this, or any, forum. Perhaps he doesn't know what a PM is, or how to access it. Be gentle with people who are not as computer-savy as you, please. At least I read his message as a plea for a private conversation.


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## Heather (Feb 25, 2007)

SlipperFan said:


> OMG -- I'm away for two days working at an orchid show, and I come back to...



AMEN girl! 

I took off 5 days vaca to work mine this weekend too, and it has NOT been anything like my last vacations! The total opposite. But very rewarding. I had a blast helping the vendors! 

There was a lot of drama there, and a lot here. A lot of the same drama, and yet we all come through as friends. 

Orchid people are nuts, but they are also, on the whole, tolerant people. I will say I was pretty annoyed on Thursday, but on Sunday, I love my society again. I love you guys too. Some of you are my best friends in the world, and all of you I know I could count on in the long run if I had some terrible emergency. 

Remember that when you post. We are open and tolerant here, but we are still completely nutso. oke:


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## Greenthings (Feb 25, 2007)

SlipperFan said:


> OMG -- I'm away for two days working at an orchid show, and I come back to...
> 
> 7. Blake: I think Peter is not that familiar with all the features of this, or any, forum. Perhaps he doesn't know what a PM is,



SlipperFan

Thank you and I could not agree more with all you express in points 1 to 6
Just super.

I have tried Private Messages on this forum; never got a reply. I prefer 
private e-mail off the forum, for private messages. 

Thanks again, all you good people.

peter


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## Greenthings (Feb 26, 2007)

I wish to apologize to all subscribers, for having used a three letter word that starts with an (a) and ends with an (s) in post # 4 in this thread.

I never apologize for expressing my objections to censorship, which is much broader than will fit in the narrow definition of some people.

When you suppress or limit the expression of ideas by blocking a free and informative civil discussion, you are censoring the freedom of expression,
for you are saying I will not allow it to happen.

As I told another member of ST, in private e-mail, I lost my freedoms for five long years, trampled on by the boots of the Nazi Army. These should have been the best years of my young life; unfortunately they were the worst. Today, 60 years later, I still feel hurt and angry at having lost that most precious of all human rights, freedom, at that young age.

Freedom is not lost abruptly when an army invades your country, throws you in Nazi camps, like Dachau, and does the terrible inhumane things that happened there. 
Freedom was lost long before that, when people ignored the small infringements on freedom and let it gradually slip away.

Finally, I have some indication that a member(s) of this forum wanted me silenced and/or removed as a member. A small threat to freedom of speech and freedom of association, but one nevertheless that must be erased.

I will not make another new post on this forum about censorship, but I will reserve my right to keep on participating, or not, in any discussion that may follow.

Adminstration my hat off for the position you took when you started this forum and for sticking to it.


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## PHRAG (Feb 27, 2007)

Let me tell you all that I have deleted a thread. It was called "FREE advice" and it was started by me. Before you all start screaming censorship, let me tell you that I deleted it because I feel that it was being misinterpreted. I am calling a do-over. I think we have had enough talk of censorship around here. We get it. You don't want your threads locked. If you still have a problem with the situation, email me privately about it. [email protected] 

Otherwise, DO NOT start another thread about this stuff. Three threads discussing it is enough, don't you think?

We try to do the best job we can keeping this forum user friendly, uncluttered with ads, troll-free and we do all of this for free because we believe that this forum is unique. If you truly believe that there is a threat of censorship on this board, I feel sorry for you. You don't realize just how good you have it here. Try going to the SOF and talking about a vendor who doesn't sponsor that board and see what happens. Try selling a plant at Orchid Source and see what happens. Ask Heather what being "Disneyed" means. 

One of you questioned why a forum that supports free speech even needs a moderator. The reason we need moderators is because every day, EVERY DAY, there are spammers who attempt to join this forum and tell you how you can refinance your mortgage and make your penis harder, longer. Now, if you want this information, I can give you the email address of a hacker who would love to talk to you.  But most of you will never have to worry about this nonsense because we take care of it before it even affects you.

Just promise me that you will think before you type. I am probably the last person who should be saying this, as sometimes my temper overtakes my common sense. But really, be careful how much you throw around terms like fraud and call something illegal. Unless you have proof, you have no right to accuse someone of wrongdoing and doing so could be considered libel. Lawyers are expensive. 

So can we all agree that the drama is over? Can we continue talking about plants, and not about censorship which doesn’t exist here? I assure you, nobody is working “behind the scenes” to silence anyone. Don’t you think if we wanted to silence someone, you would notice that they are no longer registered? This is all nonsense, and it is starting to get old already. Let’s get back to the information, and leave the soap opera to daytime T.V.


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## Greenthings (Feb 27, 2007)

Phrag,

I know you are not talking to me, for I already stated before you posted that it was my last new post on the topic.

It would help if you used several quotes, so not all of us are painted with the same brush.

peter


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## PHRAG (Feb 27, 2007)

Peter, I am talking to everyone, including you. I think we have all learned something here. 

The administrators have learned how we can improve on what it is we do here.

You, Peter, have hopefully learned that we want you here, and that we do our best to make this forum a great place to be.

Others have learned that their words have an impact on others, and that they should think before they type.

Am I missing anything?


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## SlipperFan (Feb 27, 2007)

Well, you deleted my "thanks" when you deleted that thread. So I say it again:
Thanks.

I never had a chance to read what came after that in the deleted thread, but maybe my thanks was misinterpreted. If so, let it be known that the thanks is sincere. I, for one, appreciate the freedom here, and the intent to keep it.


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## Heather (Feb 27, 2007)

SlipperFan said:


> Well, you deleted my "thanks" when you deleted that thread. So I say it again:
> Thanks.
> 
> I never had a chance to read what came after that in the deleted thread, but maybe my thanks was misinterpreted. If so, let it be known that the thanks is sincere. I, for one, appreciate the freedom here, and the intent to keep it.



Dot, don't worry at all, your thanks was not mis-interpreted and is appreciated.


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## WolfDog1 (C. Williams) (Feb 27, 2007)

I can't believe that I am going to add to this, but as a new(ish) member of the forum I have a couple of things to 'get off my chest.' 

I was a bit put out by the things I read in the thread. To me it did sound like poo throwing and accusations of intentional illegal dealings. Especially to someone like myself who did not know who Peter is and the first few posts didn't include any information about Peter at all...just a screen name, I was a little taken aback. 

Having said all that, I found the information regarding kovachii very interesting. But, because of the 'crap' that came with it, I had some doubts about it's accuracy. There are many places to get information on the web and tons of misinformation is out there. I suppose it is up to each of us to decide what we take on as good information and what we don't. I would like to think this is one of the places for 'good' information. However, I realize that I am pretty much free to post whatever I want and now I must remind myself that so is everyone else.......good information or bad. 

I have enjoyed participating in this Forum and intend to keep doing so.

Even though I didn't "enjoy" the discussion about the kovachii, I did choose to read it and am still interested in what actually happened. 

Carry on...

Craig


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