# Orchiata bark



## Gilda (May 30, 2016)

Unpotting a paph that was bought in Orchiata ,and wanting to change mediums...I was not impressed with root growth. Probably my culture, but the paph just sat there. Good roots, they just did not grow much in a year, basically like it was when I placed it in Orchiata.
I encountered the orchiata was very difficult to remove where the roots had attached. It pulled the hair covering off the root Like super glued to the root ! Could that cause the roots to not grow ??


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## gonewild (May 30, 2016)

When you tried to get the orchiata off the roots were the roots and bark dry or moist? 
I don't think adhering tightly to the bark in itself would cause the roots to not grow.
On second thought were a lot of bark chips stuck to roots or only a few?


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## Gilda (May 30, 2016)

gonewild said:


> When you tried to get the orchiata off the roots were the roots and bark dry or moist?
> I don't think adhering tightly to the bark in itself would cause the roots to not grow.
> On second thought were a lot of bark chips stuck to roots or only a few?



Yes, it was moist and a lot stuck to all the roots..all the roots were on the side & bottom of the pot ..none in the center. I finally gave up and left it stuck..was tired of it pulling the hair off the roots.


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## gonewild (May 30, 2016)

Something inhibited root growth if the roots avoided the center of the pot.
Did any new roots grow from the base of the plant during the year?

It could be that the roots adhered too tightly to the bark and in so doing drastically reduced the active root surface that was exposed to water and fertilizer.


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## Gilda (May 30, 2016)

No new roots from base or new growth ...no new root tips ....hence, the repotting. Something put it in a state of do nothing. Never had a paph do that.


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## gonewild (May 30, 2016)

Do you have other plants growing beside it that grew correctly in orchiata or in other bark? 
I guess I'm looking for a reason to suspect the specific pot of bark.
Your root growth observation is closely related to the discussion in this thread...
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39663&highlight=orchiata


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## Gilda (May 30, 2016)

gonewild said:


> Do you have other plants growing beside it that grew correctly in orchiata or in other bark?
> I guess I'm looking for a reason to suspect the specific pot of bark.
> Your root growth observation is closely related to the discussion in this thread...
> http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39663&highlight=orchiata



Others grew normally in bark mix..not orchiata. Only one in orchiata. It does seem similar to other thread.


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## Ozpaph (May 30, 2016)

Gilda said:


> Yes, it was moist and a lot stuck to all the roots..all the roots were on the side & bottom of the pot ..none in the center. I finally gave up and left it stuck..was tired of it pulling the hair off the roots.



that's what i do - leave the stuck bits stuck.


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## Ozpaph (May 30, 2016)

healthy roots are healthy roots. They must have grown if they are sticking to the Orchiata.


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## Gilda (May 30, 2016)

Ozpaph said:


> healthy roots are healthy roots. They must have grown if they are sticking to the Orchiata.



In a year, no new roots, no new tips and no new growth ! It was in orchiata when I bought it...shouldn't I be seeing something ??


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## Ozpaph (May 30, 2016)

yes you should if its a full year growth cycle. Are you watering etc appropriately for Orchiata and your conditions?


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## abax (May 30, 2016)

I've been using Orchiata for quite some time and never noticed any
inhibited root development. All my slippers seem very happy in it.
Which size Orchiata are you using? What plant? Plastic or clay pots?
I'm always interested in the occasional problems some growers have
with this bark.

Yeah, I leave stuck pieces alone rather than damage roots.


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## Gilda (May 31, 2016)

Angela, It was the small /medium size. Just a run of the mill hybrid x. plastic pot.

Ozpaph, I watered it along with my other slippers....didn't know about specifics till I noticed this problem , and found the info about urea fertilizer. I've been using MSU for rain water.


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## Ray (May 31, 2016)

gonewild said:


> Something inhibited root growth if the roots avoided the center of the pot.




Lance, I think that might be an over interpretation. I have had paphs in Orchiata, other bark brands, CHC, sphagnum, and LECA, both in S/H and traditional culture, and purchased them from any number of vendors around the continental US and Hawaii, and they pretty much all end up with roots on the perimeter of the pot, with a gap in the middle.

I am not denying the possibility of in-pot issues, but generally, I view the root mass morphology not as a flaw with the medium or culture, but an effort by the plant to mechanically stabilize itself in the pot. These plants have a remarkably small base supporting large leaves, making them inherently unstable.


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## gonewild (May 31, 2016)

Ray said:


> Lance, I think that might be an over interpretation. I have had paphs in Orchiata, other bark brands, CHC, sphagnum, and LECA, both in S/H and traditional culture, and purchased them from any number of vendors around the continental US and Hawaii, and they pretty much all end up with roots on the perimeter of the pot, with a gap in the middle.
> 
> I am not denying the possibility of in-pot issues, but generally, I view the root mass morphology not as a flaw with the medium or culture, but an effort by the plant to mechanically stabilize itself in the pot. These plants have a remarkably small base supporting large leaves, making them inherently unstable.



Ray it may very well be an over iterpretation or maybe it is just wrong. But if there were no roots growing in the mass of bark there is a reason for it so I chose the word "inhibited". I did not blame the problem on the Orchiata product.
By observation it this case the roots did not want to grow into the bark for some reason.


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## gonewild (May 31, 2016)

Ray said:


> Lance, I think that might be an over interpretation. I have had paphs in Orchiata, other bark brands, CHC, sphagnum, and LECA, both in S/H and traditional culture, and purchased them from any number of vendors around the continental US and Hawaii, and they pretty much all end up with roots on the perimeter of the pot, with a gap in the middle.



Well we may as well "discuss". oke: for the sake of accuracy.
I have no interest in Orchiata one way or the other but I would like to glean plant growth info from the discussion.

Above you said this about Orchiata "*and they pretty much all end up with roots on the perimeter of the pot, with a gap in the middle*".

Back in another thread you said this in defense of Orchiata "*Having unpotted a few plants that needed to be moved to larger pots, I assure you that roots grow throughout the medium. I'm not about to unpot one just to prove it to you, though."*

Can you please clarify which is the root growth result you consider correct for Orchiata bark. 

Honest I'm discussing not arguing!


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## Gilda (May 31, 2016)

I also, and trying to learn about Orchiata...
I've come to the conclusion though, it will not work for me and my culture. Lesson for me..stick with what you know will grow your paphs :wink:


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## gonewild (May 31, 2016)

Gilda said:


> I also, and trying to learn about Orchiata...
> I've come to the conclusion though, it will not work for me and my culture. Lesson for me..stick with what you know will grow your paphs :wink:



I value your conclusion. That is why I comment and want to discuss the "why".

Why does it work great in one environment and not in another?


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## tomkalina (May 31, 2016)

It doesn't work for us either, Gilda, so you're not alone. Tried various fertilizers, both nitrate based and urea based, and had problems similar to yours i.e. roots did not migrate into the bark. We had eight different Paph. species/hybrid compots and a year after deflasking and potting into community pots, there were no roots except for the roots present when deflasked. Similar issue with Phrag. besseae fma flavum and fischeri. Not sure why it seems to work for some growers and not others, but under our growing conditions, a fir bark based mix resulted in better root growth.


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## gonewild (May 31, 2016)

tomkalina said:


> but under our growing conditions, a fir bark based mix resulted in better root growth.



Tom what physical difference do you notice between the fir bark and orcihita after it has been in use.


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## tomkalina (May 31, 2016)

Lance,

None, other than the Orchiata turning a darker brown color than the fir bark as it aged. I made sure the bark particles were close to the same size for both bark types (approx. 1/4" ) when we deflasked, and added both perlite and #3 size charcoal to each mix. Essentially, all three mix components were close to the same size for the fir bark mix as well as the Orchiata mix. I did not do a "bark-alone" comparison because it's not the way we compot seedlings. Unfortunately, I didn't do a pour-through to identify whether there may have a been a pH change in the Orchiata over time. The part that mystified me most was the lack of rooting of seedlings in the Orchiata mix a year after deflasking.


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## gonewild (May 31, 2016)

tomkalina said:


> The part that mystified me most was the lack of rooting of seedlings in the Orchiata mix a year after deflasking.



That is the same observation that Gilda has.
I've been reading a few things about bacteria that have been found to populate orchid roots and produce IAA. Perhaps for some reason under certain conditions the Orchiata suppresses bacterial growth. And perhaps these bacteria are actually common but undetected in well growing orchid plants.

I dont have any experience with Orchiata but I do have experience with Pinus radiata. Having grown up where the pine is native I know that plants dont grow well under the trees and the chipped tree trimmings work very well as a weed preventing mulch.

There may be some issues with consistency in the production of Orchiata bark to have such dramatic good/bad results by experienced growers.


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## Gilda (May 31, 2016)

tomkalina said:


> It doesn't work for us either, Gilda, so you're not alone. Tried various fertilizers, both nitrate based and urea based, and had problems similar to yours i.e. roots did not migrate into the bark. We had eight different Paph. species/hybrid compots and a year after deflasking and potting into community pots, there were no roots except for the roots present when deflasked. Similar issue with Phrag. besseae fma flavum and fischeri. Not sure why it seems to work for some growers and not others, but under our growing conditions, a fir bark based mix resulted in better root growth.



Tom & Lance , 
Thank you for your input ! It is good knowledge to know these things don't always work for everyone ! The mystery may never be solved ,but at least growers can be aware if their plants aren't growing properly before it would be too late .

Tom,
Did your plants respond to their new mix ? I'm now wondering if the roots are damaged some how ,even though they looked great except no new root tips !


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## gego (May 31, 2016)

I was going to ask the same question yesterday when I was about to repot my big SS. I saw this thread and decided to just take out what i can by flushing all around with water and leave the rest that are stuck in the roots. I dont think i can actually do anything but damage the roots. I just placed the plant on a bigger pot and add orchiata mix on the bottom and around the gap between roots and side of the pot. The original media was orchiata with perlite, lots of perlite. I had it for two years and probably also a year from the original grower. So about three years. A year ago this plant was showing some sign of nutrient defiency, mostly micro, i think. I started experimenting with organic fert with humic and food for microbes and noticed the plant reacted positively. I saw new roots coming out and dive back in to the media even though the media already looks dark and old. I was gonna repot it last Jan but it bloomed so i waited until yesterday I was really surprised to see this. The roots were so packed that i have to slowly break the plastic pot to get the ball out. 
Here is the pic





It could be that this plant is just an easy grower. 

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk


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## tomkalina (May 31, 2016)

Unfortunately, none of the re-compotted seedlings survived. I think they were in a static condition for too long and repotting them into the fir bark mix in their weakened state finally did them in.


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## Gilda (May 31, 2016)

tomkalina said:


> Unfortunately, none of the re-compotted seedlings survived. I think they were in a static condition for too long and repotting them into the fir bark mix in their weakened state finally did them in.



I'll post an update on this one if it does anything.


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (May 31, 2016)

Tom, on your compots that didn't work in Orchiata, did the seedlings seem to being growing on top? In other words where the seedlings getting larger, and getting new leaves? The reason that I ask is that I have a couple of compots growing in a mix of half orchiata, and half rexus bark with charcoal and perlight. The seedlings seem to be growing larger leaves but I haven't bothered to repot them, nor will I until I have a reason to do so. They didn't do much over the winter, but now that spring and summer are here they are looking good. Only time will tell.


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## emydura (May 31, 2016)

I only have positive things to say about Orchiata bark. It is miles better than anything that has previously been available in Australia. I get fantastic root growth with it. The bark doesn’t break down quickly so I can go longer without repotting. I also find that bark attaches strongly to the bark. Surely that’s a good sign not a bad one. If the bark was toxic I would expect the reverse. 

The criticism that roots won’t grow through the middle is harsh. As Ray commented I don’t think it matters what medium you use, the roots will concentrate around the perimeters of the pot. I think that is completely normal. In their natural environment most Paphs roots spread horizontally throughout the leaf litter. They don’t grow deep into the soil. I’ve noticed with my plants that most roots grow horizontal in the potting mix, hit the sides of the pot and then head down. There would also be more oxygen at the perimeters of the pot then in the middle, so it would be more conducive to root growth. Having said all that, I’ve noticed I do get some root growth through the middle, more than I was getting with other mixes where the roots were much more likely to rot.

I’m responsible for keeping the bark for our orchid society. We have had varying brands over the years. Everyone is saying how much better there orchids are growing since we have switched to Orchiata. 

Gilda – so are your experiences based on a single plant that was potted in Orchiata by somebody else? Do you know how long the plant has been in that mix? I’m not sure that is a large enough sample size to be able to confidently determine that the problem is with the bark. It may well be but it would have been nice if you had the same problem with a few more plants. Clearly though there are some that are struggling with it which is interesting. I can only assume it is something to do with some element of their culture that is conflicting with the Orchiata bark.


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## Stone (May 31, 2016)

gego said:


> I was going to ask the same question yesterday when I was about to repot my big SS. I saw this thread and decided to just take out what i can by flushing all around with water and leave the rest that are stuck in the roots. I dont think i can actually do anything but damage the roots. I just placed the plant on a bigger pot and add orchiata mix on the bottom and around the gap between roots and side of the pot. The original media was orchiata with perlite, lots of perlite. I had it for two years and probably also a year from the original grower. So about three years. A year ago this plant was showing some sign of nutrient defiency, mostly micro, i think. I started experimenting with organic fert with humic and food for microbes and noticed the plant reacted positively. I saw new roots coming out and dive back in to the media even though the media already looks dark and old. I was gonna repot it last Jan but it bloomed so i waited until yesterday I was really surprised to see this. The roots were so packed that i have to slowly break the plastic pot to get the ball out.
> Here is the pic
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah but that's a hybrid isn't it? Show roots like that on a hangianum or emersonii and you will be my new God.


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## Gilda (May 31, 2016)

Yes David ,a single plant that was already in straight Orchiata when I bought it. It was blooming, and could have been in Orchiata a while. The perks of Orchiata, it lasts longer ??? 
I merely stated what I had observed over the year the paph was in Orchiata. Never seeing a paph put out new roots or a new growth in a year was new to me. Also, I've never encountered moist bark I couldn't remove from roots.
Like any orchid culture, what works for some , may not work for others. The joy of orchid growing


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## abax (May 31, 2016)

All the responses are quite interesting. My experience has been very similar to emydura without the perlite additive.
I use straight Orchiata in an appropriate size for the size
of the plant and only use K-Lite fertilizer. My water is
only very slightly acid and the rain water I use for Phrags. is neutral ph and low in salts. I wonder if the
problem is water related or fertilizer related. I use only
unglazed clay pots with lots of holes around the sides and
air flow is excellent. There seems to be a lot of variables
that are difficult to determine. Intriguing, isn't it?


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## tomkalina (Jun 1, 2016)

Albany Bob,

There was little if any top growth beyond what we had coming out of flask. As time went by, the leaves became a lighter green in color, but the seedlings did not seem to be in distress. This was also the time when we were using K-Lite as a fertilizer at very low N levels (<10 ppm) and that may have accounted for the lighter green seedling leaves. It's possible we might have had a better experience if we had used a urea based fertilizer with Orchiata as Xavier has suggested in a previous post.


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## C. Rothschild (Jun 1, 2016)

There are a million combinations of mixes with moss, perlite, leca, whatever to try to mix in with Orchiata. I found some bonsai vendors sell great orchid growing materials- fine lava-rock, even fine forest bark that's not bad. A bit buggy for indoors though.


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## gego (Jun 1, 2016)

Stone said:


> Yeah but that's a hybrid isn't it? Show roots like that on a hangianum or emersonii and you will be my new God.



It's an SS but it could be just this plant. But I was not preaching the use of orchiata, it was the question of what to do in repotting plants that have a ball of roots sticking to the old media. But I did say that the health of this plant was starting to go down with my previous fert. Hard to say if it's orchiata related.

I'm sorry, you will have to be content with your present God.


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## Ozpaph (Jun 2, 2016)

emydura said:


> I only have positive things to say about Orchiata bark. It is miles better than anything that has previously been available in Australia. I get fantastic root growth with it. The bark doesn’t break down quickly so I can go longer without repotting. I also find that bark attaches strongly to the bark. Surely that’s a good sign not a bad one. If the bark was toxic I would expect the reverse.
> 
> The criticism that roots won’t grow through the middle is harsh. As Ray commented I don’t think it matters what medium you use, the roots will concentrate around the perimeters of the pot. I think that is completely normal. In their natural environment most Paphs roots spread horizontally throughout the leaf litter. They don’t grow deep into the soil. I’ve noticed with my plants that most roots grow horizontal in the potting mix, hit the sides of the pot and then head down. There would also be more oxygen at the perimeters of the pot then in the middle, so it would be more conducive to root growth. Having said all that, I’ve noticed I do get some root growth through the middle, more than I was getting with other mixes where the roots were much more likely to rot.
> 
> ...



My experience is like David's; best bark I've ever used. Of course there are 'horses for courses' so use what works for you.


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## Carper (Jun 2, 2016)

I have only positive results with the orchiata. I have been using the stuff many years on all my paphs. I "pot on" and the roots just find their way around and through the medium. Some of my plants have been potted on a few times and have had no problems producing new roots. I have also had several flasks over the last 12 months and used only small grade orchiata with a little perlite. sanderianum, fairreanum, kolopakingii, hybrids etc. There have been well over 150 seedlings and I've lost only 2!!! They are all producing roots and growing well. Can it be down to the conditions and feed only or does the orchiata help. It certainly hasn't showed me anything negative where other mediums have.

Gary
UK


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## troy (Jun 2, 2016)

I have a paph bruno now for 2 years in small orchiata repotted 2 times still no roots aaarrgghh


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## Ray (Jun 3, 2016)

troy said:


> I have a paph bruno now for 2 years in small orchiata repotted 2 times still no roots aaarrgghh



I don't see that as an Orchiata issue....

Throw some KelpMax on it, Troy.


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## RodN (Jun 3, 2016)

There will always be plants that stop growing, grow poorly, refuse to flower, grow poor roots, etc. etc.

To blame the media, fertiliser, water, or anything else on a sample size of one plant will more often than not lead to erroneous conclusions.

If you are going to change any part of your culture do it on a significant number of plants for a significant period of time before drawing conclusions.

It is important to experiment with different cultures, but it is more important that your draw the correct conclusions.

To blame anything, either positive or negative on the results of one plant is ridiculous.


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## troy (Jun 3, 2016)

My growing culture is very terrible lol...


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