# What paphiopedilum subgenuses do you like and dislike?



## The Orchid Boy (Sep 27, 2012)

Hi everyone. I want to know your favorite subgenus of paphipedilums and your least favorite (if you have one). My favorite subgenus overall is parvisapalum. I also like the subgenus paphiopedilum. My favorite orchid, Paph. sanderinum, is in the polyantha subgenus. My least favorite subgenus is sigmatopetalum and I don't particularly care for the shapes or colors of the flowers in the cochlopetalum group. So what subgenuses do you guys like and dislike?


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## nikv (Sep 27, 2012)

My favorites are the multiflorals, whether it be the roths and kin or the cochlos. Love them all, but these are my favorites.


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## Tom499 (Sep 27, 2012)

I really like the Sigmato's and anything else that has mottled leaves. I find them attractive even when out of flower. I didn't used to like the Cochlo's, all abit small and boring, but they've grown on me.


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## Rick (Sep 27, 2012)

There's at least a few species of every subgenus I like.

But once you've seen one brachy you've seen them all. Round white flowers with varying degrees of purple spots. So I really only mess around with them to try different culture things.

Cochlos are not too much different as brachy's for lack of diversity. You only need one or two to see just about all there is for the group.

There's a lot more to look at in the other groups that is different and interesting.


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## Ghosthunt64 (Sep 27, 2012)

"Like" and 'Dislike are strong words, but I'll do my best.

Like:
Cochlopetalum: Everything
Parvisepaulum: Everything
Polyantha: Everything

Indifferent:
Sigmatopetalum: Mainly purpuratum & Maudiae hybrids.
Brachypetalum: Bellatulum and Nivuem.
Paphiopedilum: druryi, charlesworthii, spicerianum

Dislike:
Bulldogs: Orchids are grown because they're interesting, why are you trying to breed that out?

Of course, I like them all, and there are exceptions. These are based on "If I didn't have the room or time..." which I don't.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Sep 27, 2012)

I like all paph groups and hybrids, but I have to admit I am least partial to the cochlo's. I just don't like their shape or their staminodes.. I like brachy's a lot, but don't care for the hybrids, because they are all minimal variations on the same theme. I see no need for brachy hybrids if I can get the species. But I do like intersectional brachy hybrids. Same for multi's....the hybrids are too repetitive, so I'd just as soon stick with species.I do not like intersectional cochlo hybrids. Maybe my favorite species group is the parvi's, but I really do love all the others (except cochlos...just sort of like them.)


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## SlipperKing (Sep 28, 2012)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> I like all paph groups and hybrids, but I have to admit I am least partial to the cochlo's. I just don't like their shape or their staminodes.. I like brachy's a lot, but don't care for the hybrids, because they are all minimal variations on the same theme. I see no need for brachy hybrids if I can get the species. But I do like intersectional brachy hybrids. Same for multi's....the hybrids are too repetitive, so I'd just as soon stick with species.I do not like intersectional cochlo hybrids. Maybe my favorite species group is the parvi's, but I really do love all the others (except cochlos...just sort of like them.)



Dido! (this way I don't have write much)


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## Ray (Sep 28, 2012)

Orchidboy: 1) Shouldn't that be "subgenera"? 2) Why are you a "pod"? Orchids have capsules.

Rick: Shouldn't that be "ditto"?


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## emydura (Sep 28, 2012)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> I like all paph groups and hybrids, but I have to admit I am least partial to the cochlo's. I just don't like their shape or their staminodes.. I like brachy's a lot, but don't care for the hybrids, because they are all minimal variations on the same theme. I see no need for brachy hybrids if I can get the species. But I do like intersectional brachy hybrids. Same for multi's....the hybrids are too repetitive, so I'd just as soon stick with species.I do not like intersectional cochlo hybrids. Maybe my favorite species group is the parvi's, but I really do love all the others (except cochlos...just sort of like them.)



I agree about the cochlos'. The hybrids in particular are a complete waste of time.

Diasgree about the Brachy's. The species are pretty to hard to grow for a lot of us. The hybrids look much the same but are much more vigorous.

I completely disagree with the multi-florals. The hybrids especially when crossed back with a roth are generally superior to the species. A Lady Isabel is superior to a stonei. It has the stonei dorsal but a much better petal stance and a more upright dorsal. A William Ambler is much better than a wilhelminiae. The dark colour from the wilhelminiae comes through in the hybrid but the flowers are so much bigger and more impressive. A Paph. Wossner Black Wing is better than anitum. The combined dorsal is mind blowing. The roth just provides such big size and great petal stance while the other species provide unique colours. The sanderianum hybrids are also generally superior to the species. Petal length aisde, sanderianum is a very ordinary flower. By crossing it back with roths etc, you will greatly improve the flower shape. Hopefully now that we are starting to see more complex sanderianum hybrids, we will get longer petals but better shaped flowers.

Same when you cross the coloured species lowii and haynaldianum to a roths. It is daylight between my Houghtoniae and my haynaldianum clones. While the flowers look much like a haynaldianum, they are double the size with much nicer striped dorsals.

So with colour, size and petal length to mix with, there are so many exciting avenues for the hybridiser. I don't see the repetition at all.


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## Cheyenne (Sep 28, 2012)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> I like all paph groups and hybrids, but I have to admit I am least partial to the cochlo's. I just don't like their shape or their staminodes.. I like brachy's a lot, but don't care for the hybrids, because they are all minimal variations on the same theme. I see no need for brachy hybrids if I can get the species. But I do like intersectional brachy hybrids. Same for multi's....the hybrids are too repetitive, so I'd just as soon stick with species.I do not like intersectional cochlo hybrids. Maybe my favorite species group is the parvi's, but I really do love all the others (except cochlos...just sort of like them.)



I feel exactly like this. My very favorites are multis and parvi's. Especially multi and parvi species. For hybrids I can't get enough of adductum /anitum hybrids and sanderianum primarys, for parvis its micranthum and malipoense hybrids. Don't really like the sequentials much at all. And don't like bulldogs.


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## NYEric (Sep 28, 2012)

I like all album species. I like parvis because I like pubescent (fuzzy) flowers. And I like parvi/brachy by poly because of the stripes and lines. I also like fairrieanum x brachy hybrids like Angella and Estrella; same reason.


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## goldenrose (Sep 28, 2012)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> ... Same for multi's....the hybrids are too repetitive, so I'd just as soon stick with species.


Love the multis but they are getting to be that way.



emydura said:


> ...Diasgree about the Brachy's. The species are pretty to hard to grow for a lot of us. The hybrids look much the same but are much more vigorous.


Agree! 
Got alot of Nick's crosses when he sold out, if I can't succeed with them, there's no hope for the species!

Dislikes - barbatum group, on a whole they don't do well for me.


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## Justin (Sep 28, 2012)

my one and true orchid love is Paph. rothschildianum. 

My collection right now is 80% straight roths. I could grow nothing but roth and stonei and be perfectly happy. But it's good to keep some brachy's as well as some delenatii and others around, along with some hybrids, just so you have something in bloom more often  

lowii and haynaldianum are also great to have as well. I like colorful orchids so lowii is always really enjoyable, and they can bloom a couple times a year when they get big.


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## eggshells (Sep 28, 2012)

Cheyenne said:


> I feel exactly like this. My very favorites are multis and parvi's. Especially multi and parvi species. For hybrids I can't get enough of adductum /anitum hybrids and sanderianum primarys, for parvis its micranthum and malipoense hybrids. Don't really like the sequentials much at all. And don't like bulldogs.



Me and Cheyenne have the same taste. So I will not repeat it. I like barbatas as well.

Just realize it's my 1000th post!


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## Paphman910 (Sep 28, 2012)

Justin said:


> my one and true orchid love is Paph. rothschildianum.
> 
> My collection right now is 80% straight roths. I could grow nothing but roth and stonei and be perfectly happy. But it's good to keep some brachy's as well as some delenatii and others around, along with some hybrids, just so you have something in bloom more often
> 
> lowii and haynaldianum are also great to have as well. I like colorful orchids so lowii is always really enjoyable, and they can bloom a couple times a year when they get big.



We both like the same species and it is not surprising that roth and stonei are very popular. Once Justin flowers his adductum it will be on top of his favorite list!

Paphman910


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## The Orchid Boy (Sep 28, 2012)

emydura said:


> I agree about the cochlos'. The hybrids in particular are a complete waste of time.
> 
> Diasgree about the Brachy's. The species are pretty to hard to grow for a lot of us. The hybrids look much the same but are much more vigorous.
> 
> ...



I disagree with you about the multiflorals.  You say some hybrids are superior to some species but I say just the opposite. Sure the hybrids are more vigorous, but species are just the way nature designed them. Natural, attract pollinators, and stand up to the elements. I like species better than hybrids because species are just like they are found in nature.


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## ehanes7612 (Sep 28, 2012)

everything...but prefer compact , anything under a ten inch leafspan..yet i may change my mind when my roths start blooming


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## Paphiolive (Sep 28, 2012)

I like all paphiopedilum but I love multiflore’s paphiopedilum like species and hybrids from subgenus polyantha.


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## emydura (Sep 28, 2012)

The Orchid Boy said:


> I disagree with you about the multiflorals.  You say some hybrids are superior to some species but I say just the opposite. Sure the hybrids are more vigorous, but species are just the way nature designed them. Natural, attract pollinators, and stand up to the elements. I like species better than hybrids because species are just like they are found in nature.



I'd say at least half the forum would agree with you as there are many species snobs on Slippertalk. oke:

I grow both species and hybrids. I don't restrict myself to just one group. Your argument is a purely philosophical one though. Your dislike of hybrids has nothing to do with the flowers themselves. 

I just disagree with the statement that the multi-floral hybrids offer nothing over the species. Rothschildianum in my mind is clearly the best species in the genus due to its size, petal stance, shape, dorsal etc. The other species have some unique features but overall fall a bit short of rothschildianum. When you combine the two, you get the best of both worlds. The hybrids tend to bring out the best features of the two parents invloved.


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## The Orchid Boy (Sep 28, 2012)

Emudura, when you say that hybrids bring out the best of both worlds that is true most of the time. Except in the case of some hybridized cattleyas, potinara, ect. I have a potinara that has beautiful blooms but weak wimpy growths because of breeding. I don't dislike hybrids, I just prefer species because I could go out into the wild and find other orchids with blooms just like the ones on my species plants. I like hybrids and I do have some. I'd love to try to make a new hybrid someday.


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## The Mutant (Sep 28, 2012)

*Love:*
Sigmatopetalum (almost all of them)

*Love:*
gardineri
philippinense var. roebelenii
lowii
rothschildianum
wilhelminiae

The rest of the Polyantha subgenus spans from "okay" to "meh".

*Love:*
gratrixianum
helenae
henryanum
_Like:_
fairrieanum (might change to love when it blooms)
villosum

The rest of the Paphiopedilum subgenus are pretty much "meh".
*
Meh:*
Cochlopetalum

*No thanks:*
Parvisepalum

*Over my dead body:*
Brachypetalum (ugh, they make me think of dead bodies for some reason...)


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## eggshells (Sep 28, 2012)

The Mutant said:


> *Over my dead body:*
> Brachypetalum (ugh, they make me think of dead bodies for some reason...)



What!? Blasphemy! :rollhappy: 

j/k Its quite interesting what everybody likes and dislikes.


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## mormodes (Sep 28, 2012)

I don't care what it is as long as it has good form, displays well and has good color.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Sep 28, 2012)

Really, every group has its positives and negatives, and its all a matter of taste. When I buy paphs, I tend to go for species. It's not that I'm a species snob, I just feel that since my finances are limited, species take priority. But I do love hybrids, and I even love the complex "toads". Now it may be true that multifloral breeding has improved species characteristics, but I am just not so much of an expert that I can appreciate them. The only advantage I have seen is that some of them bloom more easily. Since I am, well, not "blind" but "near sighted" to their improvements, I still find them repetitive. In some cases, like sanderianum, I have yet to see a hybrid to beat the species. I love barbata, because not only are all the species great, but that section seems to have the greatest variety. True, within any category there is repetition...alba's, vini's, etc vary mainly with regard to size, petal stance, and dorsal width (and saturation, for vini's and coloratums), but the fact that there is such a range of categories is enough for me. As for brachy's...I haven't found the hybrids to be any easier than the species, in any way. Just as many hybrids (proportionally) have died in my care as species...and, since they all look so much alike, I'll stick to the species.


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## Rick (Sep 28, 2012)

emydura said:


> Your argument is a purely philosophical one though.



That's totally true. Personal likes and dislikes have nothing to do with correct or incorrect 

It's all perception. From an admitted species snob, I don't see endless variation and novelty in (simple/primary) hybrids. Just combinations and half ways between species. Then there are the hybrids which look just like extra large versions of species. Then there are the very complex that really are a divorce from any species, and I just see something artificial. But that's just me and just what I "see".

This is a thread that's probably better for Facebook


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## Paph_LdyMacBeth (Sep 28, 2012)

I thought this thread would have people bickering but its actually pretty cool 

Personally, I dislike the look of blooms in the section paphiopedilum. To me they all look very angular and aggressive and I prefer softer and prettier Paphs. Don't get me wrong I can admire and appreciate a large and straight roth, but they're so sharp and edgy looking to me. I also don't like their colours as much. Give me a delicate purple and chartreuse lowii any day 

I love coclio x paph hybrids very much as it softens those hard sharp edges, but usually keeps some flower size. 

Sent from my BlackBerry 9300 using Tapatalk


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## emydura (Sep 29, 2012)

Rick said:


> That's totally true. Personal likes and dislikes have nothing to do with correct or incorrect



I made that comment because OrchidBoy and I were talking about different things really. I was making the point that I think the multi hybrids are well worth doing as they provide variations that the species cannot provide themselves. Whereas OrchidBoy much prefers species as that is what occurs in the wild. I wasn't comparing species versus hybrids myself.



Rick said:


> It's all perception. From an admitted species snob, I don't see endless variation and novelty in (simple/primary) hybrids. Just combinations and half ways between species. Then there are the hybrids which look just like extra large versions of species. Then there are the very complex that really are a divorce from any species, and I just see something artificial. But that's just me and just what I "see".
> o



Not endless variation but more variation than the species can provide. Even just half ways between species is often different and an improvement. I'd agree when you start looking at complex multi's then you are just reshuffling the cards and not coming up with anything really new. But then you could say that about any of the Paph groups.

By the way, I grow a lot of species.


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## The Mutant (Sep 29, 2012)

Oh, I forgot to say that when it comes to the barbatas, I'm probably a bit of a species snob, but that I do like some primary hybrids too. On the other hand, when it comes to the multifloras, there are plenty of both primary hybrids and complex dittos, that I like and would love to have. I find that rather interesting actually.

And I really don't like bulldogs.  



eggshells said:


> What!? Blasphemy! :rollhappy:
> 
> j/k Its quite interesting what everybody likes and dislikes.


:rollhappy: I know! It is, isn't it? I honestly don't know why I make this very strange association, too many video games I guess. :wink: 



Paph_LdyMacBeth said:


> I thought this thread would have people bickering but its actually pretty cool
> 
> Personally, I dislike the look of blooms in the section paphiopedilum. To me they all look very angular and aggressive and I prefer softer and prettier Paphs. Don't get me wrong I can admire and appreciate a large and straight roth, but they're so sharp and edgy looking to me. I also don't like their colours as much. Give me a delicate purple and chartreuse lowii any day
> 
> ...


I think the reason you dislike roths and examples from the Paphiopedilum subgenus, is the very reason why I _like_ them! I love the cheeky/cocky appearance of roths, and the simple elegance of many of the Paphiopedilums. Isn't it really interesting what one find appealing another might find appalling? It's all about personal taste and perspective.


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## Rick (Sep 29, 2012)

emydura said:


> By the way, I grow a lot of species.



I know and beautifully too:wink:


I don't know if you are familiar with the "Mister Potato Head" game. But that reminds me of many of the hybrids out there. To me it's all the same pieces just shuffled around.

I would like to eventually get more involved in orchid judging so that requires me to develop a better appreciation of hybrids. But I am struck with how much emphasis of hybrid judging is based on comparing back to the parents in the first place.


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## emydura (Sep 29, 2012)

Rick said:


> I don't know if you are familiar with the "Mister Potato Head" game. But that reminds me of many of the hybrids out there. To me it's all the same pieces just shuffled around.
> 
> I would like to eventually get more involved in orchid judging so that requires me to develop a better appreciation of hybrids. But I am struck with how much emphasis of hybrid judging is based on comparing back to the parents in the first place.



Same traits but better packaged. William Ambler is a great example. The dark colour in wilhelminiae is incredible and unique in that group. But the flowers are quite small so it doesn't quite get the WOW factor. But when you cross it with a roth that all changes. My William Ambler has the same identical colour as a wilhelminiae but the flowers are much bigger and better presented. I can't stop looking at it when it is in flower. The colour is so intense. It certainly has the WOW factor. 

When I think of breeding with the multi's there are 3 main species to me - rothschildianum (size, shape, stature, petal stance), sanderianum (petal length) and lowii (colour). I like to see at least one of those parents in a hybrid. I think in most cases they will improve the other parent.


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## NYEric (Sep 29, 2012)

A judge at one of the last judgings at our Regional center did the same comparison and didn't like the hybrid compared to its parents. I dont think plants should be judged that way. Unless of course the bloom is definitely worse than the parents.


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## paphioboy (Sep 29, 2012)

Interesting thread. I also think 'dislike' is a too strong word, I think 'preference' is better. Some plants can not be fully appreciated through a picture. You have to see a stunning specimen in person for it to change your mind..  Personally, I love all sigmatopetalum (species and also Maudiae-type hybrids, for they are so vigorous), brachys, cochlopetalum (gotta love these hairy fellas), pardalopetalum (lowii, parishii, dianthum), and coryopedilum (roth, sandie, phili are a must). The ones that rank lower in my list aresection paphiopedilum (the ones I really like are insigne, spicerianum, villosum, and farrieanum, which make superb specimens) and parvis, mastersianum and sangii, mainly because my environment is not perfect for them. I would also grow a lot more kolos and gigantifolium, space permitting..


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