# Paph. Hsinying Franz



## emydura (Dec 6, 2012)

First flowering seedling of Taiwanese breeding. Stoned Susan is Susan Booth x stonei so this plant is made up of - 

rothschildianum - 62.5% 
stonei - 25%
praestans - 12.5%

Initially I was a bit disappointed with the stonei dominated petal stance but it has grown on me. It should look really nice with 4 or so flowers. I love the colour on this one.The plant is only small so it should improve a lot on a stronger plant. I'm looking forward to the next flowering.


Paph Hsinying Franz (rothschildianum 'In-Charm' SM/TPS x Stoned Susan 'In-Charm'


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## tomkalina (Dec 6, 2012)

Very Nice; better than I would have expected given the parentage.


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## atlantis (Dec 6, 2012)

Impressive plant and awesome photo, David (as always)


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## SlipperKing (Dec 6, 2012)

The pouch is very stonei as well with all the veining in it. Looks nice to me.


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Dec 6, 2012)

I'm not multi guy, but I have to say I like this one.


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## SlipperFan (Dec 6, 2012)

I have a Stoned Bernice -- I'd love to have a Stoned Susan and this Stoned Susan hybrid!


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## ehanes7612 (Dec 6, 2012)

love the veining..nice form too


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## jimspaphs (Dec 6, 2012)

I like---good one.


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## wjs2nd (Dec 6, 2012)

Love the color!!


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## The Orchid Boy (Dec 7, 2012)

Very nice!

Just curious, how do you find out how much percent of certain species is in a hybrid? Can you just research the parents of the hybrid until you come up w/ species? So a P. Magic Lantern would be 50% micranthum and 50% delenatii. A P. (Magic Lantern x delenatii) would be 33.3% micranthum and 66.6% delenatii. Am I on the right track?


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## cabnc (Dec 7, 2012)

*Math class*

You are on the right track but your math is a little off. Start with your plant and it's parents:

A P. (Magic Lantern x delenatii) -- 50% Magic Lantern
l---50 % delenatii .

Each 'parent' provides 50%.

The next generation back the 50% Magic Lantern --- 25% micranthum
l-- 25% delenatii 

while the 50% delenatii, being a species, gives --- 25% delenatii
l-- 25% delenatii.

Each 'grandparent' provides 25% -- in this plant delenatii is 3 of the 4 possible 'grandparents.

So your plant is 25% + 25% + 25% = 75% delanatii and 25% micranthum.

Charlie


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## JeanLux (Dec 7, 2012)

Cool blooms and pics!!!! Jean


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## quietaustralian (Dec 7, 2012)

I'd be happy with that.


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## Ozpaph (Dec 7, 2012)

love the spots/tessellations on the petals.


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## Erythrone (Dec 7, 2012)

Wow!


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## NYEric (Dec 7, 2012)

Very nice blooms, i like the dark patterns on the lateral sepals.


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## annab (Dec 7, 2012)

you have always beautiful plant and nice flowering , my compliment.
anna


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## biothanasis (Dec 7, 2012)

Nice sturdy flowers!


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## GuRu (Dec 7, 2012)

That's a lovely hybrid - I like those dark maroon patterns -on its shoe they look alike veins, on its petals they look alike chequered and they are stripes on its dorsal and synsepal. Great!


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## emydura (Dec 7, 2012)

I read Charlie's response before I saw OrchidBoys question. I was thinking what the hell is Charlie talking about when he says my calculations are wrong and that they should include 75% delanatii and 25% micranthum. LOL

But yes, yoour calculations are right Charlie. Here is a family tree of Hsinying Franz. As you go back each generation the percentage input halves. Hopefully this diagram makes sense. If not let me know. When you start getting into these complex hybrids it is amazing the variation you can get. Stonei only makes up 25% of the genetic input but it has a far higher influence in terms of how the flower looks in this clone. Another clone can look entirely different again.


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## The Orchid Boy (Dec 7, 2012)

Thanks for explaining this. Yes, the diagram makes sense. As you may have seen, not the best at math.


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## Susie11 (Dec 8, 2012)

Nice.


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## Cochlopetalum (Dec 8, 2012)

P. Magic Lantern would be 50% micranthum and 50% delenatii. That is tru for a primary and only for a primary. Because if you breed a primary to a species you can no longer tell how much of the 2 species that will be present in each of ther offspring. Some of the progeny will get more of one of the species and som will get more of the other, and others will get 50/50. Thats why complex crosses are so variable.


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## Cochlopetalum (Dec 8, 2012)

Magic Lantern x delenatii could give you offsprings with the same genetic makup as a primary Magic Lantern or it could be almost pure delenatii and everything inbetween.


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## GuRu (Dec 8, 2012)

Cochlopetalum said:


> P. Magic Lantern would be 50% micranthum and 50% delenatii. That is tru for a primary and only for a primary. Because if you breed a primary to a species you can no longer tell how much of the 2 species that will be present in each of ther offspring. Some of the progeny will get more of one of the species and som will get more of the other, and others will get 50/50. Thats why complex crosses are so variable.


Your testimony is half true and half untrue too !
Of course you can figure out with* every hybrid* how high is the percentage of genes of every cross parent. You need the complete family tree, that's all. The rest is some maths. On the other hand you can't forecast how the cross will turn out, which genes are dominant in a cross and which are recessive - even with a primary hybrid !


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## Cochlopetalum (Dec 8, 2012)

GuRu said:


> Your testimony is half true and half untrue too !
> Of course you can figure out with* every hybrid* how high is the percentage of genes of every cross parent. You need the complete family tree, that's all. The rest is some maths. On the other hand you can't forecast how the cross will turn out, which genes are dominant in a cross and which are recessive - even with a primary hybrid !



Thats the problem, you cant figur it out. Because when the DNA is split for reproduktion, you cant now how many genes from each species that are present, because it will vary. Its not that simple, that the DNA given to the progeny will have the same amount of genetics from both their grandparents. Some will get more of the genetics from grandma and some will get more from their grandpa. That makes it possible to breed one of the original species out of a complex hybrid to the extent that ther is almost no genetic material left after several generations.

Excuse my english is not so good, it makes it difficult to express myself clearly.


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## GuRu (Dec 8, 2012)

Cochlopetalum said:


> Thats the problem, you cant figur it out. Because when the DNA is split for reproduktion, you cant now how many genes from each species that are present, because it will vary. Its not that simple, that the DNA given to the progeny will have the same amount of genetics from both their grandparents. Some will get more of the genetics from grandma and some will get more from their grandpa. That makes it possible to breed one of the original species out of a complex hybrid to the extent that ther is almost no genetic material left after several generations.


I'm no expert but it seems not to be that way.
Source Wikipedia Gene
_"A gene is a molecular unit of heredity of a living organism. It is a name given to some stretches of DNA and RNA that code for a polypeptide or for an RNA chain that has a function in the organism. Living beings depend on genes, as they specify all proteins and functional RNA chains."_
and also Wikipedia Allele
"Most multicellular organisms have two sets of chromosomes, that is, they are diploid. These chromosomes are referred to as homologous chromosomes. Diploid organisms have one copy of each gene (and therefore one allele) on each chromosome. If both alleles are the same, they are homozygotes. If the alleles are different, they are heterozygotes."
Imho because of the (minimum) two sets of chromosomes there are *always all genes transfered*.
I think, you describe the problem of homo- or heterozygote beings/plants and eventually the rules of inheritance.


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## Marc (Dec 8, 2012)

The Orchid Boy said:


> Very nice!
> 
> Just curious, how do you find out how much percent of certain species is in a hybrid? Can you just research the parents of the hybrid until you come up w/ species? So a P. Magic Lantern would be 50% micranthum and 50% delenatii. A P. (Magic Lantern x delenatii) would be 33.3% micranthum and 66.6% delenatii. Am I on the right track?



That sounds about right, you can use the site of the RHS for that.


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## Hakone (Dec 8, 2012)

Human Genetics also applies to orchids ?


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## GuRu (Dec 8, 2012)

Hakone said:


> Human Genetics also applies to orchids ?


That's general genetics of all beings including plants and no specific genetics of human beings.


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## GuRu (Dec 8, 2012)

Marc said:


> That sounds about right, you can use the site of the RHS for that.


No Marc, that's wrong. 
This is right.


cabnc said:


> ........
> A P. (Magic Lantern x delenatii) -- 50% Magic Lantern
> l---50 % delenatii .
> Each 'parent' provides 50%.
> ...


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## Hakone (Dec 8, 2012)

GuRu said:


> That's general genetics of all beings including plants and no specific genetics of human beings.



you mean General Genetics/Non-Mendelian Genetics , but all these experiments are performed to humans .Are all these experiments transferable to plants.

There are two genetics: Mendelian Genetics , Non-Mendelian Genetics . What we are talking now ?


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## Cochlopetalum (Dec 8, 2012)

GuRu said:


> I'm no expert but it seems not to be that way.
> Source Wikipedia Gene
> _"A gene is a molecular unit of heredity of a living organism. It is a name given to some stretches of DNA and RNA that code for a polypeptide or for an RNA chain that has a function in the organism. Living beings depend on genes, as they specify all proteins and functional RNA chains."_
> and also Wikipedia Allele
> ...



It was a long time since I discussed genetics, so I'm a little rusty and used the wrong word. So I try again and I try to keep it simple and avoid difficult words.

If it would be so that all the genetic material was passed on to the offspring, then every generation would have an increased number of chromosomes.
Diploid plants have haploid gametes. It is therefore only half of a parent's genetic makeup that is passed on to each offspring.
The genetic information occur in pairs, one part of each pair comes from each parent.
Simplified one can say that DNA contains long chains of pairs, where each pair has a part from each parent.
When it comes to Magic Lantern all of the pairs have one part from delenatii and one part from micranthum. Giving it a 50/50 genetic makeup.
When the Magic Lantern is producing gametes, then all the pairs will split into two parts,leaving only singles in the germ cells. 

The problem with the percentage theory arises when pairs split up to form new germ cells.
Because you do not know if it's the delenatii part or the micranthum part of the pair that will be forwarded to that particular germ cell
and it could only be one of them. Some of the germ cells will end up with more of the micranthum singles and some will have more of the delantii singles. 
In theory it is possible for some of the germ cells to contain only micranthum or delenatii singles, although it would be unusual I think.


If one crosses the Magic Lantern with delenatii, then single gametes of the two parents combine to form new chains of pairs.
If a Magic Lantern germ cell with a high content of delenatii singles combined with a pure delenatii germ cell, the end result could be a nearly purebred delenatii.
Although this is one of the extremes.

My memory may be playing tricks on me and I could be wrong, but that's how I remember it. This took a very long time to write, so I hope I'm right. :crazy:


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## Wendy (Dec 8, 2012)

What a gorgeous flower! The colour is outstanding!


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## monocotman (Dec 9, 2012)

There is a major area that we have not covered yet with regards to hybrids and the inheritance of characters.
We see an event called recombination.
During the first step in sexual reproduction, most chromosomes 'recombine'.
The same chromosome from delenatii lines up with the same from micranthum. They are then cut and restitched with the other chromosome at the same spot by the cell machinery. 
This results in both chromosomes containing DNA from the other one, but they keep the same overall size and shape. 
It can happen several times along the length of the chromosomes. As far as I know this happens in every higher organism.
So -not only do you have random assortment of the individual chromosomes to produce variation in the offspring, but the individual chromosomes are also cut and restitched together.
This adds another layer of variation in the hybrids.
This is why calculating these percentages for complex hybrids is only theoretical. None of them with actually have these percentages due to these recombination events.
Just where they occur on the chromosome can be fairly random though it usually occurs towards the edges.
These recombination events occur in the first cycle of sexual reproduction. 
In the next step you see the chromosome count halving from diploid to haploid to produce pollen and eggs.
We then get back to a fertile diploid when fertilization occurs.
Hope this helps a bit!
David


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## Cochlopetalum (Dec 9, 2012)

Thanks, that's what I tried to say, only very simplified and with as few technical expressions as possible. This recombination can give some offspring significantly more genetic material from one of their grandparents. Which makes the percentage calculation meaningless.


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## emydura (Dec 9, 2012)

Cochlopetalum said:


> Thanks, that's what I tried to say, only very simplified and with as few technical expressions as possible. This recombination can give some offspring significantly more genetic material from one of their grandparents. Which makes the percentage calculation meaningless.



This is all a little over my head but is the percentage calculation totally meaningless? I would have thought if you had a higher pecentage of roth in the background than there was an increased chance that the offspring will be dominated by the roth. It may not of course as is the case with my flower. Does the percentage calculation not give you some measure of probabilities?


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## Cochlopetalum (Dec 9, 2012)

Everything depends on the choices the breeder does. If you choose a breeding plant that displays many characteristics from one of the species or not.


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## Paphiolive (Dec 10, 2012)

Very nice. Thanks for the photos


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## toddybear (Dec 10, 2012)

Wow!


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## Shiva (Dec 12, 2012)

Just saying I love it.


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