# Hybrid "evolution" question



## Heather (Dec 6, 2006)

I think, because this is hybrid related, that it deserves it's own thread here. 

I am curious about what traits _Phrag. besseae_ and other micropetalum are dominant in their hybrids. Clearly, there tends to be a stoloniferous growth habit in plants such as Hanne Popow, but not plants such as St. Ouen. The scent from _schlimii_ passes on to Hanne Popow, but not generally St. Ouen, or Barbara LeAnn, but Beverly Fischer has the schlimii scent. 

I'm particularly interested in this today because my allergen patch test came back mildly positive to besseae (which is the only species, and only constant hybrid parent in my entire Phrag. collection of 20 of 21 Phrags. So, I'm wondering if certain traits that are passed on to some hybrids may not be passed on to others. 

Before anyone (NYEric!) suggests it, I'm not ready to ditch my Phrags yet, but I am going to do further (longer) patch tests on myself with my Phrags. 

I am also (more) allergic to nickel. I'm mentioning this because maybe one of you can think of something that orchid growers use regularly that contains nickel. Something is making me break out in a nasty rash on my face every week or two (I tried for a long time to blame it on the "ex" but, apparently, no.) and it seems to coincide with my working with the plants. 

Thankfully, I had no reaction to my multiflorals. You can all breathe a sigh of relief now.


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## gore42 (Dec 6, 2006)

I read in a journal somewhere that someone in Australia had a bad allergic reaction to Paph parishii. How awful. 

Anyway, nickel is a common micro-nutrient in MSU fertilizer, but it should be such a small amount that I doubt it would cause a reaction (I'm assuming you're not bathing in it). Although, perhaps if you're using a sprayer and you're getting mist on your skin or in your lungs...

Can't think of anything that would have higher levels. Hope you figure it out!

As Ever,
Matthew


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Dec 6, 2006)

How often do you wear glasses? 

Jon


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## gonewild (Dec 6, 2006)

Some plant species have high concentrations of nickel in their leaf tissues. It would be interesting for you to have a leaf analysis done to test your plants. Test besseae and test your multiflorals for nickel content.

Matt has pointed out MSU fertilizers have nickel content. even though the fertilizer content might be small there may be some accumulation somewhere. Another suspect could be your mix. You use PrimeAgra as I recall. Prime Agra is made from clay and some clays are very high in nickel content. Are your multiflorals and besseae all in PrimAgra?


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## Heather (Dec 6, 2006)

Hrm...

I wondered about the fertilizer and brought it in, but my Dr. said that he'd talked to someone who was an expert in plant allergies and she said that she'd never heard of an allergy to fertilizer, so he decided not to test it. (I can test it tho!) 

Then again, I'm not bathing in it and last week I broke out after watering, but I haven't fertilized in two weeks. So...

Thanks Matt.


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## Heather (Dec 6, 2006)

gonewild said:


> Some plant species have high concentrations of nickel in their leaf tissues. It would be interesting for you to have a leaf analysis done to test your plants. Test besseae and test your multiflorals for nickel content.
> 
> Matt has pointed out MSU fertilizers have nickel content. even though the fertilizer content might be small there may be some accumulation somewhere. Another suspect could be your mix. You use PrimeAgra as I recall. Prime Agra is made from clay and some clays are very high in nickel content. Are your multiflorals and besseae all in PrimAgra?




Yes, everything is in Prime Agra, and ONLY since April/May of last year (when I started getting the rash!) 

Who could I have test this stuff? Any ideas?


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## gonewild (Dec 6, 2006)

Heather said:


> Yes, everything is in Prime Agra, and ONLY since April/May of last year (when I started getting the rash!)
> 
> Who could I have test this stuff? Any ideas?



Ask Ray about nickel content, he may already have an analysis. 
Any lab that can do a soil analysis could test it for you.


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## Heather (Dec 6, 2006)

I just emailed Ray. Thanks for the idea. Of course, I didn't think to test for this. However, I think I have some PA dust hanging around in the bottom of my PA boiling pot, so I will test for it next week.


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## gonewild (Dec 6, 2006)

Don't forget about the diner next door that gives you some fumes. Maybe their grills are emitting nickel in the exhaust.

We need to vindicate besseae somehow!


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## Heather (Dec 6, 2006)

gonewild said:


> Don't forget about the diner next door that gives you some fumes. Maybe their grills are emitting nickel in the exhaust.
> 
> We need to vindicate besseae somehow!



Maybe, but the rash started when I moved from Shirley, MA to Boston, not when I moved from Boston to RI. The prime agra switch coincided with both moves. May and August were my major repotting times. (I moved in April, August, and September.)

Also, I didn't mention that when I lived in Shirley, the plants were not in a really lived in area of my house, and went to living in my living/dining rooms in W. Rox, and in RI they are in all three of my main living rooms (bedroom, kitchen, living room (which are all connected, pretty much). So, I spend every home moment in a room with my plants now.


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## gonewild (Dec 6, 2006)

Does besseae naturally occur growing on serpentine soils? I seem to remember reading that at some time, but maybe it was a Paph species or something.


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## gonewild (Dec 6, 2006)

Heather said:


> Maybe, but the rash started when I moved from Shirley, MA to Boston, not when I moved from Boston to RI. The prime agra switch coincided with both moves. May and August were my major repotting times. (I moved in April, August, and September.)
> 
> Also, I didn't mention that when I lived in Shirley, the plants were not in a really lived in area of my house, and went to living in my living/dining rooms in W. Rox, and in RI they are in all three of my main living rooms (bedroom, kitchen, living room (which are all connected, pretty much). So, I spend every home moment in a room with my plants now.



OK, you can't sue the diner.


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## Heather (Dec 6, 2006)

gonewild said:


> We need to vindicate besseae somehow!




Definitely! 

Jon, I already answered via IM but in case anyone else wonders, yeah, I wear my glasses (metal rims) almost all the time. I've had them for more than 5 years though and this just started in April or May. I only wear my contacts when I plan to be swimming or really exercisiing in the summertime. 

Darn, I really liked that Prime Agra!


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## Heather (Dec 6, 2006)

All really good thoughts - please keep them coming...I just wonder if there is something else I haven't considered, you know? 

Thanks guys!


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## Barbara (Dec 6, 2006)

Nasty fertilizer! Can't be those besseae's. I knew someone who would have an asthma attack if Mircle Gro got within ten paces of her. Thank God it's not those multiflorals.oke:


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## gonewild (Dec 6, 2006)

Heather said:


> Definitely!
> 
> Jon, I already answered via IM but in case anyone else wonders, yeah, I wear my glasses (metal rims) almost all the time. I've had them for more than 5 years though and this just started in April or May. I only wear my contacts when I plan to be swimming or really exercisiing in the summertime.
> 
> Darn, I really liked that Prime Agra!



Yes, but maybe you only developed the nickel allergy in April or May?


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## gonewild (Dec 6, 2006)

When you work with your besseae do you use any tools or metal containers that you don't use for your multiflorals? Think hard!

Are your besseae on or in chrome plated shelves and the multiflorals not?

It there any chrome associated with your besseae and not the multiflorals?


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## Heather (Dec 6, 2006)

I don't use a watering can. I use a plastic hozelock sprayer or water from the faucet. 
I have two plant misters. One is copper and one is glass. Both have chromed metal as the pumping/spraying mechanism. I try to remember to use them daily, but I don't have prelonged contact with them.

The Phrags (all but one are bess or bess hybrids) are on a metal rack. It is painted a tan color, the nuts and bolts holding it together may be nickel. I don't know, but I would imagine the frame is probably aluminum, it's very light metal. 

I talked to my mom, who said the only time I had a reaction to nickel growing up, was with a certain belt buckle that was in contact with my skin for a long time and left a similarly shaped rash. 

The "breakout" I get on my face since April/May (I don't recall which but it was within a month of moving to W.Rox, I thought at the time perhaps it was paint related) is not from any prolonged contact with anything. I notice it sometimes happens when I am stressed, if my face sweats (when I moved it was a problem every day I was lugging stuff around), salt seems to aggrevate it. If I am on the phone for a long time, or if I am anxious at work it creeps up. When it's been "plant related" others of these triggers have also been going on. For example, last week when it happened, it was after a day of plant care, but then I got on the phone and had an arguement about work w/ my "ex". So, there was stress, phone, etc. involved in addition to the plant care in the morning, and my working at the flower shop in the afternoon. 

Also, it's not hives, or a real rash. It's a tickle, and if I scratch it, I get all red and it burns. It's usually gone within 24-36 hours. 

I have ALWAYS had sensitive skin, being fair, and a red-head. I've never had anything like this, that was so sporadic with regards to recurrance.

Sorry if this is TMI, I'm just trying to figure it out and you guys are good troubleshooters, and know the plants better than anyone else in my life! 
Thanks!


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## gonewild (Dec 6, 2006)

OK at least now we know it is not all besseae's fault. 
Stress is a factor?? Here is a clip from a this page.

"Sweating increases dermatitis in nickel-sensitive people as well. Items containing nickel can cause an itchy, prickly sensation with 15 to 20 minutes after touching sweaty skin. A rash my appear within a day or two. These same items can be often worn for several hours without any problems if sweat is not present."


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## Heather (Dec 6, 2006)

Prickley is a really good way to describe it. 
Okay, that's very interesting. 

BTW, the spot where the nickel patch was was REALLY itchy when removed, but not at all where the besseae patch was. 

I felt it coming on a bit tonight. Then I vacuumed. Then I washed my face off, and it stopped feeling like it was coming on. I think that's beginning to be key, my washing my face when I feel it coming on, or if I sweat at all. 

Thanks Lance. You can bet I'll be doing some more searches about nickel sensitivity tomorrow!


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## Barbara (Dec 6, 2006)

Indeed. My sister has a reaction (icky red leisions) when she comes in contact with certain fabric softeners. (Do these contain similar compounds?)
Her symptoms get worse if she become agitated (overheated). 
She takes benedryl to stop this. Don't know if I'm being any use here.
Barb.


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## gonewild (Dec 6, 2006)

Heather said:


> Prickley is a really good way to describe it.
> Okay, that's very interesting.
> 
> BTW, the spot where the nickel patch was was REALLY itchy when removed, but not at all where the besseae patch was.
> ...




http://www.nickelinstitute.org/index.cfm/ci_id/14349.htm
Change your diet and keep your besseae!


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## Heather (Dec 6, 2006)

gonewild said:


> http://www.nickelinstitute.org/index.cfm/ci_id/14349.htm
> Change your diet and keep your besseae!




I'm glad they seem to think that my All Clad pots aren't a big problem (honestly, I am cooking so much less now than I was prior to April) but chocolate and nuts! Ouch! I eat a LOT of nuts. Probably my snack of choice (that and cracked green Greek olives).

Telling me I was lactose intolerant would be about the only thing worse I can think of (apart from Phrag. besseae allergies! lol!) I am such a cheese whore.


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## gonewild (Dec 6, 2006)

Heather said:


> BTW, the spot where the nickel patch was was REALLY itchy when removed, but not at all where the besseae patch was.



If besseae does grow on serpentine soils they may indeed have high natural levels of nickel. Serpentine soils are known to be high in nickel and it stands to reason that plants growing on them may also be slightly higher in nickel content. That could be why besseae shows a slight reaction.

Then again some indigenous people would tell you besseae gives you a red rash because it has a red flower and so do you. (red hair?)


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## Heather (Dec 6, 2006)

gonewild said:


> If besseae does grow on serpentine soils they may indeed have high natural levels of nickel. Serpentine soils are known to be high in nickel and it stands to reason that plants growing on them may also be slightly higher in nickel content. That could be why besseae shows a slight reaction.
> 
> Then again some indigenous people would tell you besseae gives you a red rash because it has a red flower and so do you. (red hair?)



What about limestone? 

They also tested me on my Sander's Pride (because it was in bloom, and was my only multi I could sacrifice at the time). Both parents, sanderianum and stonei are found growing on limestone. I tested very slightly positive on the Sanders Pride (not enough for him to really worry about, about half as much a reaction as the besseae, which was, I think about half as severe as the nickel.) I also tested rothschildianum - just the leaf. It is not calcicolous. I was negative to the roth. THANK GOD!!!! 

Any correlation? Or is this wishful thinking on my part?


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## Heather (Dec 6, 2006)

OrchidNorth said:


> Indeed. My sister has a reaction (icky red leisions) when she comes in contact with certain fabric softeners. (Do these contain similar compounds?)
> Her symptoms get worse if she become agitated (overheated).
> She takes benedryl to stop this. Don't know if I'm being any use here.
> Barb.



Thanks Barb! 
Benadryl makes mine worse, as do over the counter and prescribed cortizone cremes (I tested negative for an allergy to them though. Go figure!)


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## Rick (Dec 6, 2006)

gonewild said:


> Does besseae naturally occur growing on serpentine soils? I seem to remember reading that at some time, but maybe it was a Paph species or something.



No that's Paph rothchildianum you're thinking of. If you are in close association with serpentine, you are in "ultrabasic soils" Mag silicate hydroxides. The metals are there because at high pH's they are insoluable, and don't wash out.


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## gonewild (Dec 6, 2006)

Heather said:


> What about limestone?
> 
> They also tested me on my Sander's Pride (because it was in bloom, and was my only multi I could sacrifice at the time). Both parents, sanderianum and stonei are found growing on limestone. I tested very slightly positive on the Sanders Pride (not enough for him to really worry about, about half as much a reaction as the besseae, which was, I think about half as severe as the nickel.) I also tested rothschildianum - just the leaf. It is not calcicolous. I was negative to the roth. THANK GOD!!!!
> 
> Any correlation? Or is this wishful thinking on my part?



I'm going to say..... that plants evolving in limestone soils will have a naturally lower nickel content than those from serpentine soils.


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## Heather (Dec 6, 2006)

Rick said:


> No that's Paph rothchildianum you're thinking of. If you are in close association with serpentine, you are in "ultrabasic soils" Mag silicate hydroxides.



So, might that backup my limestone theory? Are calcicolous areas high in nickel? 

Again, I tested negative to any rothschildianum allergens but positive to stonei, sanderianum, and besseae. 

Oh, they tested me on ProTekt too, thinking I might have a silicate allergy. No dice.


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## gonewild (Dec 6, 2006)

Rick said:


> No that's Paph rothchildianum you're thinking of. If you are in close association with serpentine, you are in "ultrabasic soils" Mag silicate hydroxides.



Humm.. then Heather testing negative to rothschildianum may negate this part of the theory. The good part is that would point toward besseae being innocent.


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## Rick (Dec 6, 2006)

I can't imagine that metals sequestered in plant leaves could even come out of the leaves to cause a reaction. You'd have to break the cell walls (porbably by eating them) to get metals out of the leaves.

Some of the North American cyps have irritating hairs that cause rashes on contact. It could be that some phrags have a similar thing.

This nickel issue is intriguing. I do allot of tox work with nickel and water fleas. Heather have you checked for reaction to zinc? It has some similar toxicological properties to nickel, and allot more common in the environment.


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## gonewild (Dec 7, 2006)

Rick said:


> I can't imagine that metals sequestered in plant leaves could even come out of the leaves to cause a reaction. You'd have to break the cell walls (porbably by eating them) to get metals out of the leaves.



I agree, but then Heather has suddenly had reactions to besseae and nickel at the same time? If she is allergic to one specie and not another it must be something within the plants composition? Or not the plant at all?


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## VAAlbert (Dec 7, 2006)

Heather said:


> I am curious about what traits _Phrag. besseae_ and other micropetalum are dominant in their hybrids. Clearly, there tends to be a stoloniferous growth habit in plants such as Hanne Popow, but not plants such as St. Ouen. The scent from _schlimii_ passes on to Hanne Popow, but not generally St. Ouen, or Barbara LeAnn, but Beverly Fischer has the schlimii scent.



I don't know much about the genetics of scent (PVs, = plant volatiles), in terms of dominance/recessiveness, but quite a bit is known about how scent-related genes have evolved. As with many other aspects of plant phenotypes, scents have often evolved through gene duplications and then diversification of gene function thereafter. Apparently, convergent evolution of the same scents can occur time and again. Here is a relevant abstract from the journal _Science_:



> Science. 2006 Feb 10;311(5762):808-11.
> 
> Biosynthesis of plant volatiles: nature's diversity and ingenuity.
> 
> ...


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## NYEric (Dec 7, 2006)

Wow am I really that predictable? You have my address. :rollhappy:


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## NYEric (Dec 7, 2006)

OK. Here's the solution. Stop using MSU fertilizer, zinc and nickel are very volatile, I know somebody who used to live in the former zinc building in NYC and the smell was ridiculous. Move your plants off the chromed metal shelving. Stop getting so worked up over dealing w/ "the ex". [It's better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all.] Flush the prime agra w/ distilled water every week. If these dont work, well you have my address I'll make you a deal on the besseaes! ity:


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## Heather (Dec 7, 2006)

Hrm, okay so our limestone theory seems to have gone out the window, huh? Darn. 

Rick, I'm not sure they tested for Zinc, but if they did, I didn't come back positive for it. 

Regarding giving up MSU and removing the shelving. Honestly, I'm not ready to give up anything yet. I'm going to do some patch testing on my self of the fertilizer and the Prime Agra (wish I'd hear back from Ray about the latter), and more of the plants. If I simply multiple things, I won't know what variable might actually be causing or not causing the symptoms.


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## likespaphs (Dec 7, 2006)

Heather said:


> ...Telling me I was lactose intolerant would be about the only thing worse I can think of ...



you're lactose intolerant


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## Heather (Dec 7, 2006)

likespaphs said:


> you're lactose intolerant



My, aren't you helpful today!


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## gonewild (Dec 7, 2006)

Heather said:


> Hrm, okay so our limestone theory seems to have gone out the window, huh? Darn.



The serpentine/limestone soil part does not seem to fly. But that does not mean that besseae is not high in nickel for some reason. Your allergic reaction may be from a cumulative contact with multiple sources. One source of contact may be what puts you over the edge and you present a rash. Perhaps just eliminating one of the sources will solve the problem and perhaps you can choose what to eliminate. And maybe your reaction to besseae has nothing to do with nickel at all. 

When you have a rash after working with your orchids do you by any chance always finish your session with besseae? And do you always sit down and eat nuts and chocolate as a reward for your completed chores? oke: 

Another off the wall thought for the nickel source.... Is there a possibility you are allergic to something your lights are emitting? Are your besseae under different lights than the multiflorals? 
Since you are fair skinned maybe you are allergic to the artificial light source?


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## Heather (Dec 7, 2006)

gonewild said:


> When you have a rash after working with your orchids do you by any chance always finish your session with besseae? And do you always sit down and eat nuts and chocolate as a reward for your completed chores? oke:
> 
> Another off the wall thought for the nickel source.... Is there a possibility you are allergic to something your lights are emitting? Are your besseae under different lights than the multiflorals?
> Since you are fair skinned maybe you are allergic to the artificial light source?



Do I always finish with the Phrags? Nope, sometimes I do the Phrags and the Paphs on different days even. No rhyme or reason to it. Last week I don't think I did the Phrags that Wednesday, the afternoon/evening of which I broke out. 

Don't have a habit of eating chocolate, nuts, or salmon as a reward for my hard work.  

I wondered about the lights also. I have three types, all in the same growing area. The phrags have compact fluorescents, the middle Paph area has a 400W Metal Halide Lamp and the outer edge areas have 160W mercury vapor wonderlites. But all the lights are in the same room.


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## likespaphs (Dec 7, 2006)

yeh. i just got back from a week at home with the folks so i've got a bit of pent up energy...


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## gonewild (Dec 7, 2006)

Heather said:


> Do I always finish with the Phrags? Nope, sometimes I do the Phrags and the Paphs on different days even. No rhyme or reason to it. Last week I don't think I did the Phrags that Wednesday, the afternoon/evening of which I broke out.



OK, a point for besseae, she has an alibi for that Wednesday.



> Don't have a habit of eating chocolate, nuts, or salmon as a reward for my hard work.



Why not, don't you know what treats are for?



> I wondered about the lights also. I have three types, all in the same growing area. The phrags have compact fluorescents, the middle Paph area has a 400W Metal Halide Lamp and the outer edge areas have 160W mercury vapor wonderlites. But all the lights are in the same room.



I wonder if the Metal Halide or Vapor lights actually do emit some metals. Perhaps the glass tubes don't contain all the particles? Or maybe the heat from the lights is causing nickel to be thrown off from the reflectors?


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## NYEric (Dec 7, 2006)

Ooh I know!! When my "ex" and I were really going through troubles and I thought that she was poisoning me because I got sick every day it turned out that I had become lactose intolerant and was suffering from my daily cereal and milk routine. If you're not lactose intolerant maybe its the nickle particles your ex sprinkled in the bedding! :evil: oke:


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## Stephan (Dec 12, 2006)

Uhmmm

Gotta ask a couple of questions that may get the wrong reaction.

Do you use a rollon antiperspirant Heather?
Is the sensitivity worse in high or low temperatures?
Is it only ever on the sensitive skin areas of the face?
So, O.K. it only ever lasts 24 to 36 hours - What happens if you don't scratch?

If I scratch my skin you get to see the fingernail marks for houirs (sometimes, it depends where I scratch) Does your sensitivity display in this way or does the "red" spread?

Is Zinc the only thing that you've tested positive to on the allergen side of things? I'm thinking leaf tip or pot contact with skin/fingers and this contact exposing you to other potential allergens.

Lastly, is it that much of a worry?



Cheers
Stephan


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## Heather (Dec 12, 2006)

Let's see....

~antiperspirant - nope, i use one of those crystal things
~Sensitivity is worse if I sweat, but not really temperature related (maybe a little worse in the summer by default?)
~Just on my face, sometimes my earlobes but not always.
~I don't really scratch, it more makes me rub. I try not to, but it's more of a sensation than an itch to scratch, really. Very hard to explain.
~I tested positive to nickel, not zinc. 

Is it much of a worry? Well, am I going to stop growing besseae and her relatives? Not until I have a good amount more evidence!


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