# Phragmipedium kovachii 'Franz'



## ORG (Sep 29, 2012)

A very attractive plant came in flower in the collection of *Franz Glanz* and get also a goldmedal
*Phragmipedium kovachii 'Franz' GM/DOG 2012*







At the same time another clone came in flower.
Interesting is that the staminodes are different. Does anybody knows anything about the variability of these staminodes?

Here Phragmipedium kovachii 'Wössen 2'










Phragmipedium kovachii 'Franz' left and 'Wössen' right






and here the different staminodes





Best greetings

Olaf


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## NYEric (Sep 29, 2012)

No idea.  I will have to pay attention to that when I see Pk blooms.


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## John M (Sep 29, 2012)

The 'Franz' clone looks deformed to me. I'm shocked that it won anything. While it is a larger, overall nicer flower, the pouch does have a flap-like piece of extra tissue down the one side and it looks like it was beginning to split into two pouches. I'm not surprised that the staminode appears to not be fully developed. I'd like to see the next flower that this plant produces.


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## NYEric (Sep 29, 2012)

I noticed the same thing + the color break w/ the pouch but didn't say anything!


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## Shiva (Sep 29, 2012)

Nice to see more kovachii blooming.


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## Kavanaru (Sep 29, 2012)

John M said:


> The 'Franz' clone looks deformed to me. I'm shocked that it won anything. While it is a larger, overall nicer flower, the pouch does have a flap-like piece of extra tissue down the one side and it looks like it was beginning to split into two pouches. I'm not surprised that the staminode appears to not be fully developed. I'd like to see the next flower that this plant produces.



Interesting... That's exactly what I was thinking when I first saw the picture and was about to comment... As well as the colour break mentionned by Eric...


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## Berthold (Sep 29, 2012)

ORG said:


> A very attractive plant came in flower in the collection of *Franz Glanz* and get also a goldmedal
> Interesting is that the staminodes are different. Does anybody knows anything about the variability of these staminodes?
> 
> Best greetings
> Olaf



its a defect at the "Franz" clone, maybe genetic. Pull back the gold madel immediatly. The plant is a medal candidate for paralympics.


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## SlipperFan (Sep 29, 2012)

Berthold said:


> its a defect at the "Franz" clone, maybe genetic. Pull back the gold madel immediatly. The plant is a medal candidate for paralympics.



I would tend to agree with this.


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## Hakone (Sep 30, 2012)

The 'Franz' clone Staminodium looks deformed to me.


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## Dido (Sep 30, 2012)

interesting ones thanks for shareing with us


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## Cheyenne (Sep 30, 2012)

I would take the 'wossen' clone in a second over 'Franz'. Yes 'Franz' is a big flower with big petals and 'wossen is skinnier, on the next flowering if you could get' wossen' to get a little wider petals I think it could be a winner. If not I would just like to look at it more. I love the pouch and more intense clean color of that clone. 'Franz' looks like it grew to big for its own good and the color is washed out.


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## phrag guy (Sep 30, 2012)

nice to see the two together


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## Berthold (Sep 30, 2012)

Cheyenne said:


> . 'Franz' looks like it grew to big for its own good



But main problem is that two shoes try growing together like Siamese twins do. It's a real cripple but a nice one.


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## SlipperKing (Sep 30, 2012)

Both nice first efforts but no medal quality here


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## Mrs. Paph (Sep 30, 2012)

I agree with the critiques about the awarded one, but just have to mention that joking like that about paraolympics is not in very good taste - just something to think about in future, to keep the insults to the plants with no feelings to hurt


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## SlipperFan (Sep 30, 2012)

Mrs. Paph said:


> I agree with the critiques about the awarded one, but just have to mention that joking like that about paraolympics is not in very good taste - just something to think about in future, to keep the insults to the plants with no feelings to hurt


I would agree. My statement was in agreement about the award. I should have deleted the second part of that quote.


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## Roth (Sep 30, 2012)

Cheyenne said:


> I would take the 'wossen' clone in a second over 'Franz'. Yes 'Franz' is a big flower with big petals and 'wossen is skinnier, on the next flowering if you could get' wossen' to get a little wider petals I think it could be a winner. If not I would just like to look at it more. I love the pouch and more intense clean color of that clone. 'Franz' looks like it grew to big for its own good and the color is washed out.



Wossen clone is coming from a different colony, that's why the staminodium and the flower shape is different, it is not going to do any wider petals. I have seen the same from the Arias exports.

Franz is another colony, most likely the Manrique exports.

Kovachii grows in many colonies, and since a couple of years, they are harvested and sold ( with CITES), so there are a lot of variants of kovachii that appeared since a couple of years.


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## eaborne (Sep 30, 2012)

It's great to see pictures of these in bloom!


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## Berthold (Oct 1, 2012)

Roth said:


> Franz is another colony, most likely the Manrique exports.



But there is no colony with deformed blooms. I don't believe that, never.


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## John Boy (Oct 1, 2012)

I'd guess it's down to culture or the plant isn't all that established yet... It happens all the time. The bud grows too fast, done (deformation)! Next year could be very different.... Why the Award? Brave guess: _because it's Glanz_? Had Popow brought it along.................. (your guess!)


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## Roth (Oct 1, 2012)

Berthold said:


> But there is no colony with deformed blooms. I don't believe that, never.



Definitely there is no colony with deformed blooms... but the stress of collection and the antibiotics that are required to prevent them from getting pseudomonas after collection can make this kind of deformed blooms. It was a known problem with amoxicillin that was used to avoid Paph. praestans from rotting, and Phrag besseae. Most plants settle to normal after they make a new growth, but some Phrag. besseae never ever did, even after a decade, and the blooms are forever crippled. Let's see another blooming.


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## Berthold (Oct 1, 2012)

John Boy said:


> Why the Award? Brave guess: ..



The DOG gys didn't realize it as a bloom deformation. In addition I fear that Olaf Gruss would like to describe a new forma of Phrag kovachii.


I agree with Roth.


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## Hakone (Oct 1, 2012)

Thalidomide disaster or Agent Orange disaster ?


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## gonewild (Oct 1, 2012)

Roth said:


> Kovachii grows in many colonies, and since a couple of years, they are harvested and sold ( with CITES), so there are a lot of variants of kovachii that appeared since a couple of years.



There are no plants from wild "colonies" being harvested and sold with legal CITES documents.


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## NYEric (Oct 1, 2012)

You are so funny!


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## Cheyenne (Oct 1, 2012)

I thought that was pretty funny too. I am waiting to hear Roth's response. I have a good idea what it will be though.


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## NYEric (Oct 1, 2012)

The issue is the word "legal". What exactly does that mean? I was with another STF person when I glanced at the paperwork with the hangianum seedlings at the WOC in Miami!

BTW, I was in Taneytown MD, yesterday.


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## gonewild (Oct 1, 2012)

First clue to determine if the CITES is legal or not is to look at the signatures and seals(stamps)... Are they original or is the document a copy?


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## NYEric (Oct 1, 2012)

Not _*my*_ paperwork. :ninja:


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## gonewild (Oct 1, 2012)

NYEric said:


> Not _*my*_ paperwork. :ninja:



All the more reason to check if it is original document or copy!


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## NYEric (Oct 1, 2012)

Couldn't check. I wasn't the one who bought the plants!


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## Cheyenne (Oct 1, 2012)

Eric, I am not sure where that is in Maryland but I live in the Northeast corner by Delaware and PA. If you came all the way from New York it wouldn't be that much further to drive to Rising Sun. Maybe a little heads up next time. 

Forget the hangianum, I want to hear more about these "legal" kovachii that are or are not leaving Peru.


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## gonewild (Oct 1, 2012)

NYEric said:


> Couldn't check. I wasn't the one who bought the plants!



Later I will give another clue about the documents.


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## Drorchid (Oct 1, 2012)

Olaf,

I agree with what others have said. The awarded clone 'Franz' has deformed flowers, and Roth may be correct that is caused due to the use of antibiotics. To me it looks like it was trying to form two flowers, with two pouches and two staminodal shields, that both fused together, indeed a "Siamese twin". I personally have not seen this happen in any of our seedlings, but we don't use antibiotics, and our plants are all seed grown in the lab.

Robert


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## Hakone (Oct 2, 2012)

gonewild said:


> First clue to determine if the CITES is legal or not is to look at the signatures and seals(stamps)... Are they original or is the document a copy?



You get normally one copy of the original document


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## gonewild (Oct 2, 2012)

Hakone said:


> You get normally one copy of the original document



Yes a copy, never an original. So if you see a CITES cert that is not a copy, with plants that entered the country, it probably is not real.


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## Hakone (Oct 2, 2012)

gonewild said:


> Yes a copy, never an original. So if you see a CITES cert that is not a copy of plants that entered the country, it probably is not real.



" So if you see a *CITES cert that is not a copy of plants* that entered the country"

Please explain precisely what you mean:

- a copy of plants
- CITES cert


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## gonewild (Oct 2, 2012)

Hakone said:


> " So if you see a *CITES cert that is not a copy of plants* that entered the country"
> 
> Please explain precisely what you mean:
> 
> ...



Let's change that to read... So if you see a CITES cert that is not a copy, with plants that entered the country, it probably is not real.

The government keeps all original documents and may or may not provide a copy to the importer.


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## John Boy (Oct 2, 2012)

We sould actually get rid of all this *crap*!!! 
After that long a time it's safe to say that CITES doesn't help conservation, but it stands right in its way.
Any intelligent species would scrap it on the spot. Maybe that's why *we* hang on to it? Afterall, it's revenue....

Maybe it's time for printing T-Shirts?! *"CITES = 100% failure but is good for cash-flow!"*


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## Dido (Oct 2, 2012)

Sorry dont undertand tis at all. 

I imported 2 times plant out of canada to germany. 
And always I get a Cites document which is a copy of the one from Canada and then I get another one from the german customers to prove they have accepted them, and the cites only showed the pure kinds which was imported and the natural Hybrtids. The 2 crosses which are not found naturally they did not mention on it. So is this one now illegal because it has a sign on it or not.


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## Hakone (Oct 2, 2012)

very nice Phragmipedium kovachii 'Franz' . I would say Phragmipedium kovachii 'Franz' var. staminodium carinatum


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## Roth (Oct 2, 2012)

gonewild said:


> There are no plants from wild "colonies" being harvested and sold with legal CITES documents.




There are many recently, but the CITES documents just say 'artificially propagated', end of the story. It is funny to note that the nurseries offering those in Peru are the same that first sold the plants before they were legally described, then screwed a lot of honest people ( like Orchids Limited in fact...) by selling flasks a premium on supposedly 'conservation' purposes, then resumed as soon as possible the export of wild plants, with Artificially propagated CITES...

We wonder how important is Kovach in that whole story, considering that maybe he smuggled a few plants only, went to the court, where the others just screamed, were involved in a very strange story with Isaias Rolando's death as a culminating point, made few hundreds thousands USD out of flasks ( I can do the calculations again for anyone interested, but that's the correct figure...), then sold wild kovachii for down to 50USD/plant over the last few years.

Why do I say that people like Orchids Limited have been cheated ? Because they did everything in a fair and honest way, bought flasks, raised them, etc... where their market has been jumbled by wild plants sold by the same people who sold those horribly expensive flasks a couple years ago.


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## John Boy (Oct 2, 2012)

Dear Lord!!! I wanna collect stamps.


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## gonewild (Oct 2, 2012)

Roth said:


> There are many recently, but the CITES documents just say 'artificially propagated', end of the story.



Sure there will be, or are illegal shipments but I just wanted to point out that when you said "colonies are being harvested with CITES" that people don't think that Peru has authorized the collection of wild plants. 

When this exporter is finally caught it will cast a huge shadow on all of his exports and any plants people have with the false CITES will become contraband (at least in the USA, maybe not so in Germany). 
Just because the plants come in with false CITES and the inspectors don't stop them does not mean they don't know about it. They can come at anytime later to confiscate plants and arrest the smugglers.


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## NYEric (Oct 2, 2012)

Dido said:


> Sorry dont undertand tis at all.
> 
> I imported 2 times plant out of canada to germany.
> And always I get a Cites document which is a copy of the one from Canada and then I get another one from the german customers to prove they have accepted them, and the cites only showed the pure kinds which was imported and the natural Hybrtids. The 2 crosses which are not found naturally they did not mention on it. So is this one now illegal because it has a sign on it or not.



Everything is OK. Don't worry, be happy! ity:


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## gonewild (Oct 2, 2012)

Dido said:


> Sorry dont undertand tis at all.
> 
> I imported 2 times plant out of canada to germany.
> And always I get a Cites document which is a copy of the one from Canada and then I get another one from the german customers to prove they have accepted them, and the cites only showed the pure kinds which was imported and the natural Hybrtids. The 2 crosses which are not found naturally they did not mention on it. So is this one now illegal because it has a sign on it or not.



Since you say you receive a "copy" of the CITES from Canada that conforms with what I am saying. And you receive that copy from the German authority so all is legal.

What I was trying to tell people is to be cautious when they are offered plants to purchase and the seller shows them original CITES documents and not copies.


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## lipelgas (Oct 6, 2012)

John Boy said:


> Dear Lord!!! I wanna collect stamps.



I would still continue with orchids. There are some other very interesting ones. :rollhappy:


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