# Phrag. La Hougette 'Kelly Creek' AM/AOS



## MaxC (Jul 31, 2020)

I have two plants in bloom currently, one I have already shared.

Phrag. La Hougette 'Kelly Creek' AM/AOS- EYOF breeding, 3 growth division was sent in spike so I cannot take too much credit, this is the 3rd bloom.

Part of the reason I wanted to share is that ns is well short of the awarded size by almost 2cm. Since we were talking about not being too harsh on first blooms. Same goes for divisions. Cannot wait to get this plant bigger to see it's full potential.

Some spikes being put out on some of my other species (my large sargentianum with good breeding) and should have some nice blooms to share in a month or so if all goes well. In the middle of a little cultural crisis with part of my collection...


----------



## NYEric (Jul 31, 2020)

Yay besseae hybrids. Yeah, they need to be big for best blooming. Like Don Wimbers!


----------



## KateL (Jul 31, 2020)

Max, It’s a nice flower and you‘re right about getting divisions established - it takes a bit.
Is your cultural crisis heat-related or something else?
I hope it resolves soon!
Best, Kate


----------



## MaxC (Jul 31, 2020)

Unfortunately, something else. A type of false spider mites; no webbing, super small, damage is all in the crown. Hard to find if you aren't looking for them until they have already done damage. 

I got three plants back in March (they had been treated previously for unknown malady). These three plants never seemed to thrive like my others plants have. One I thought had sun damage, since it was smaller and my quarantine area has Eastern exposure.

About a month ago, I noticed a few plants had damage on the leaves in a symmetrical pattern radiating from the crown. Turns out this was all after the fact. Reached out the vendor and we both noted damage was "old" and could not see anything alive. I had also received more plants from the same vendor after my original purchase, all were mite free.

Did not think anything of it until my one plant that was from the original purchase looked like it was having a problem on one leaf. Got a stronger magnification device and sure enough they are alive and going to town on part of my collection. I have three seperate areas: "young" plants, "new" plants and "good" plants, which my daughter says "goodnight" to every night right before bed. They got the "new" and a part of the "good".

I am treating with Azamax having endured a few sleepless nights in the past week.


----------



## abax (Aug 1, 2020)

Is the Azamax working? I like the color intensity of this bloom.


----------



## MaxC (Aug 1, 2020)

It is my understanding it takes 5-7 days to see the results of Azamax working. I did notice they started vacating the crown, which would likely be from the presence of moisture and not the Azamax.

Treated another 2 plants and a compot yesterday. I have another round to spray on Tuesday, which is when I hope to see only dead mites.

I opted 1 oz. per gallon treatment. There is a dispenser attached to bottle that is in mLs but the instructions only have tbsp and oz. quantities listed.


----------



## richgarrison (Aug 1, 2020)

can you, and if so, would you please post some photos of what the damage looks like? 

always good to extend ones' knowledge of possible cultural issues in our collections.


----------



## MaxC (Aug 1, 2020)

1. Here's one of them at 25x magnification, they are really small.
2. Bad "new" infestation.
3. Seedling with "older" damage.
4. Another single growth plant with "older" damage
5. One of the original plants with "oldest" damage


----------



## abax (Aug 1, 2020)

Are your plants in your living area? If they are, I'll shut up.


----------



## abax (Aug 2, 2020)

Kate, I use Orthene 97% wettable powder when I have an insect problem in
the greenhouse. I would not suggest anyone with an orchid collection
in a living area use Orthene. It's dangerous and it stinks to high heaven.
However, it's effective and is systemic when used according to directions.


----------



## MaxC (Aug 2, 2020)

abax said:


> Are your plants in your living area? If they are, I'll shut up.



At least until I win the lottery...


----------



## shariea (Aug 2, 2020)

MaxC said:


> At least until I win the lottery...


Ditto!


----------



## richgarrison (Aug 2, 2020)

awesome post.. thanx for the photos and discussion!...


----------



## MaxC (Aug 2, 2020)

Happy to help. I will update when I treat again this week. I have been trying to get them as I see them, they seem to be hanging out outside of the crown. Other than the worst infestations which were two multi-growth plants I hardly saw any today.


----------



## cpmaniac (Aug 2, 2020)

Very nice flower, Max. I, too, have been having some mite issues. The plants affected are recent purchases from one vendor. They had been treated for mites by the vendor, but they came back. I hit them with Avid. I just ordered some Azamax, and will use that in rotation.


----------



## MaxC (Aug 2, 2020)

I feel your pain. The downside is that you have to soak the crowns so you will need to have that in mind when treating to prevent crown rot and it is not an instant kill so there will be a few days of more damage.


----------



## southernbelle (Aug 3, 2020)

abax said:


> Kate, I use Orthene 97% wettable powder when I have an insect problem in
> the greenhouse. I would not suggest anyone with an orchid collection
> in a living area use Orthene. It's dangerous and it stinks to high heaven.
> However, it's effective and is systemic when used according to directions.


Abax, Orthene is a great systemic insecticide but it’s not an acaricide. If these are false spider mites it won’t work. I’m going to go out in a limb and say I suspect two things. Mites and thrips. The streaky damage near the crowns and the critter at 25x mag look like thrips in their larval stage. It looks too elongated to be a mite to me. The damage (more widespread stippling) on the leaf of one plant looks to me like possibly spider mites. But the false spider mites I get are so tiny, they are hard to see with 60x mag unless they are moving!!! One source says they are 228 microns long!!! 
I think, Max, you are using something for mites (make sure it treats mites) as they are spider family and a different creature than other insects, so take a different chemical to eradicate. I’ve only used Avid and Vendex for mites. I know Avid is systemic, can’t remember about Vendex. I’ve taken care of thrips with alcohol, spray every 3 days 3 times. If a spike was forming and you had thrips it would turn black and dry up. And streaks would radiate out from spike on leaf in my experience. If they are on flowers, it’s spotting and drying. If someone disagrees, please say so as I just discovered I am fighting this again, too, after having a problem last year at this time. I really want to get a handle on it before winter when I can’t take the plants outside to spray.


----------



## southernbelle (Aug 3, 2020)

MaxC said:


> Happy to help. I will update when I treat again this week. I have been trying to get them as I see them, they seem to be hanging out outside of the crown. Other than the worst infestations which were two multi-growth plants I hardly saw any today.


You have to spray regularly, not as you see them. False spider mites at summer temps every 7 days. Thrips every 3. Always spray 3 times. Missouri Botanical Garden has some great info and photos. Also just found an article by Sue Bottom 
Www.staugorchidsociety.org/PDF/ThripsonOrchidsbySueBottom.pdf


----------



## MaxC (Aug 3, 2020)

Ugh, @southernbelle not again!

Not thrips, thankfully. That's a close-up on a Paph. Dollgoldi. I had a small issue with a thrips earlier this year... Ebay. Have not lost any blooms/spikes in the mite infested area.

Azamax is every 7 days spray and is a systemic. My understanding is Azamax works in 3 ways, neem extract to coat the mites so they cannot expel liquid they suck up, an antifeedant and insect growth regulator. Specially for mites but evidently does work on other pests. Tomorrow is next treatment. 

Another option if avoiding chemicals is the introduction predatory pests like green lace wings.


----------



## southernbelle (Aug 3, 2020)

MaxC said:


> Ugh, @southernbelle not again!
> 
> Not thrips, thankfully. That's a close-up on a Paph. Dollgoldi. I had a small issue with a thrips earlier this year... Ebay. Have not lost any blooms/spikes in the mite infested area.
> 
> ...


Yes, unfortunately again, albeit mostly limited so far. Thankful then, you are only dealing with one pest. Sounds like you have a good plan. I do better with chemicals Than natural, as I know them well. I grew hybrid tea roses for 25 years and dealt with many of the same pests them. However, I will say, two spotted spider mites on roses are visible to the naked eye, even though tiny. Flat/false spider mites on orchids are challenging to see even with significant magnification. Same with thrips. On roses, they are easily visible with at most 10x. On orchids, they take far more significant magnification. Different types of these critters attack different plants and orchids seem to attract the tiniest buggers. A whole new education in progress for me. Keep us posted on your progress.


----------



## MaxC (Aug 5, 2020)

Round 2 was last night after the hurricane/tropical storm. In total, I have treated 21 plants and a compot. 

Looking at all the plants this evening I saw mites on three plants, two of which had only 1-3 on them. Unfortunately my multi-growth Paph. Dollgoldi still has a lot of these guys. I am moving the Paph. to my bedroom and will continue to treat but the infestation may be too severe to go back into the collection. It is hard to get in every single nook and cranny. That's all for now and counting the days till next Tuesday.

Fight the mites!


----------



## southernbelle (Aug 6, 2020)

MaxC said:


> Round 2 was last night after the hurricane/tropical storm. In total, I have treated 21 plants and a compot.
> 
> Looking at all the plants this evening I saw mites on three plants, two of which had only 1-3 on them. Unfortunately my multi-growth Paph. Dollgoldi still has a lot of these guys. I am moving the Paph. to my bedroom and will continue to treat but the infestation may be too severe to go back into the collection. It is hard to get in every single nook and cranny. That's all for now and counting the days till next Tuesday.
> 
> Fight the mites!


Max, you will win the battle. I’ve read to treat 3 x with one product then change to a different product (with different mode of action) so resistance won’t occur. I think you said your product is systemic which would mean you don’t need to get every nook and cranny. Also, consider at these temps they may be multiplying faster and shorten spray interval maybe to 5 days. When I had these late winter, I only treated with alcohol because I’m growing in indoor room. By the time outdoor temps allowed me to spray outside (I feel your pain of hauling plants out), it looked like all old damage and (I thought) problem was solved. Some new plants came in with apparently the same problem, all Paphs (different vendor, but I did have a few catts with the streaking, too that I attributed to thrips because sheaths/buds were destroyed.). I could see somewhat different (more dispersed not streaks) leaf stippling damage on the new Paphs and kept watching (I think I was in denial because I hate to deal with this), until I swabbed with alcohol on a Qtip. Qtip turned yellow/gold which then under 60+ I could see a critter squirming. I will start to treat this week. I will treat everything on the table whether I see damage or not, as close proximity allows easy spread. Question: what magnifier did you get that you can photograph through. I have one but it’s high power and very hard to focus to get a clear photo.


----------



## MaxC (Aug 6, 2020)

MacGyver-ed it, I used a jeweler's loupe and put it in front of my phone camera.

These are just nasty little buggers, just in the fact they can go undetected for a period of time and their damage may be attributed to another critter that would likely not be treated with a mite specific treatment. 

Not liking that you got them from a different location, I hope we don't see an increase in people having to deal with them.


----------



## southernbelle (Aug 6, 2020)

MaxC said:


> MacGyver-ed it, I used a jeweler's loupe and put it in front of my phone camera.
> 
> These are just nasty little buggers, just in the fact they can go undetected for a period of time and their damage may be attributed to another critter that would likely not be treated with a mite specific treatment.
> 
> Not liking that you got them from a different location, I hope we don't see an increase in people having to deal with them.


Pretty creative on the photo, I’ll try that. But you used a 10 power jewelers loupe? I’d never see the ones I have with that. Even with a 35 x loupe almost impossible to see unless squirming from alcohol. I have a 60 x that makes them visible. The literature says they can be 228 microns or .228 millimeter. But, there are several types of flat mites/false spider mites, some likely larger. I realize now, on my cattleyas I likely had both thrips larva which attacked the developing buds which I could see with much lower power and mites which caused the streaks at the crown. On those, alcohol took care if it. I watch all my developing sheaths closely now for any sign.


----------



## MaxC (Aug 6, 2020)

That was with a 25x. My watering time has doubled having to checking for mites. Hopefully we all emerge relatively unscathed and better growers.


----------



## southernbelle (Aug 6, 2020)

MaxC said:


> That was with a 25x. My watering time has doubled having to checking for mites. Hopefully we all emerge relatively unscathed and better growers.


I never minded spraying when it was on roses and outside. Spider mites, thrips, all the critters were visible to the naked eye, even though tiny. This is a whole different ball game as far as size of critters, etc., makes me wish I had scale or mealy bugs instead!! I have to either use alcohol or don a respirator and cover up to spray inside; or haul the plants up a flight of stairs to outside at a time when it’s not over 80 degrees and not windy!!! And do it in stages of plants at least at 3 intervals. Not something that puts one in a very happy mood which is why I think I was in denial!! Yes, this too will pass. But it does #%?#% the good news is I read that my spray (Avid) takes care of both mites and thrips, so no need to mix chemicals together. Thank God for small favors.


----------



## southernbelle (Aug 9, 2020)

Max, your posts on this have made me hyper-vigilant checking for thrips. Yes, watering takes considerably longer because of what I’m finding. Some beautiful sheaths have many drops of honeydew on them. On cattleyas not usually something I would worry about, as honeydew is common on those. However, my diligent eye today found larval and (my first) adult thrips!!! So far, only alcohol to the rescue, but I also slit the pseudobulb covering and made sure none of the buggers were hiding there. Tells me I have to spray immediately... Oh joy?!? Phrags are separated and I’ve now separated my milts, that I know have mites. I know it is not advisable to do this in general, but at this point with temps around the corner that will prevent me from spraying outside (considering my upcoming surgery), I’m spraying the entire collection with Avid which controls both. I’ll do it every week and alcohol in between for the thrips. We helped each other, brother!! Thanks. Nothing upsets me more than losing those gorgeous cattleya blooms and last year this time I lost 20-30! ?!#%?!


----------



## MaxC (Aug 9, 2020)

I am glad you mentioned the thrips, I was speaking to another experienced grower and they thought it unlikely to have false spider mites. So I reassessed and saw a thrip. I have now sprayed my entire collection in the two rooms and keeping an eye on the third room. I have noticed a severe decline after two applications of Azamax. I ordered a larger bottle for drench treatment tomorrow. My two severely attacked plants had only a few thrips on them after seeing plenty last week. I was looking online and saw people saying Azamax did not work for them, my guess is that they were not doing repeated treatments. So I will do one more application and the drenching, then all I should need is some alcohol for spot treatment. I have some important spikes coming up and hoping I contain this in time.

For the collective, would spraying with alcohol and water impact the effectiveness of my foliar treatments negatively?


----------



## southernbelle (Aug 10, 2020)

MaxC said:


> I am glad you mentioned the thrips, I was speaking to another experienced grower and they thought it unlikely to have false spider mites. So I reassessed and saw a thrip. I have now sprayed my entire collection in the two rooms and keeping an eye on the third room. I have noticed a severe decline after two applications of Azamax. I ordered a larger bottle for drench treatment tomorrow. My two severely attacked plants had only a few thrips on them after seeing plenty last week. I was looking online and saw people saying Azamax did not work for them, my guess is that they were not doing repeated treatments. So I will do one more application and the drenching, then all I should need is some alcohol for spot treatment. I have some important spikes coming up and hoping I contain this in time.
> 
> For the collective, would spraying with alcohol and water impact the effectiveness og my foliar treatments negatively?


Max, fyi, I use straight 70% isopropyl. Only possible negative is too rapid cooling of the leaves if it evaporates too fast, so I mop it out of the crowns and wipe excess off of the leaves after a minute or so before returning to the lights.


----------



## PeteM (Sep 24, 2020)

Hi, I somehow wondered into this post I missed. I had the same mite issue last summer ( I think southernbelle and I chatted on this in an earlier thread) and it started up again this summer with a few out of the blue leaf pitting / streaks running the length of the leaves. Mostly Cattleyas and a psyc this year. I have been using this product for mites. And I was ready for them.

AgroMagen (GS420), GrowSafe... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07M983TRL?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

Found it through a friend and I’m comfortable spraying it indoors in the basement growroom. Just wanted to pass this info along Incase anyone is looking for an indoor option as the weather gets colder and you still have to treat. This stuff works. You just Have to keep up the treatment.

I have a dedicated cheap 1 gallon hand pump with a long wand. I load this stuff up, turn off all my fans and fine mist my entire collection once a week with no issues, even on my more ‘sensitive’ carnivorous plants.


----------



## southernbelle (Sep 25, 2020)

PeteM said:


> Hi, I somehow wondered into this post I missed. I had the same mite issue last summer ( I think southernbelle and I chatted on this in an earlier thread) and it started up again this summer with a few out of the blue leaf pitting / streaks running the length of the leaves. Mostly Cattleyas and a psyc this year. I have been using this product for mites. And I was ready for them.
> 
> AgroMagen (GS420), GrowSafe... Robot Check
> 
> ...


Pete, do you also spray the undersides of the leaves? I’ve always done that even with systemics, even though less important with those. Also, do you use a respirator when you spray? Also the product looks somewhat like a dormant oil spray which usually would not be sprayed above a certain temp. Any instructions re that?


----------



## PeteM (Sep 25, 2020)

Yes, the long spray wand makes it easy to get under the base of the plant between the leaves and point up towards the ceiling. I feel I get a majority of the under side of the leaves. No respirator. I did the first time then found there was no strong smell and no irritation, with the fans off this stuff seems to stay where you spray it even with the fine mist.


----------



## southernbelle (Sep 25, 2020)

PeteM said:


> Yes, the long spray wand makes it easy to get under the base of the plant between the leaves and point up towards the ceiling. I feel I get a majority of the under side of the leaves. No respirator. I did the first time then found there was no strong smell and no irritation, with the fans off this stuff seems to stay where you spray it even with the fine mist.


Since it’s oils is there a residue left on benches?


----------



## PeteM (Sep 25, 2020)

It’s actually a white milky substance that is the consistency of pepto bismol when it comes out of the bottle before diluted. I don’t see any hard oily residue. When it dries it’s slightly tacky.


----------



## Just1more (Sep 25, 2020)

PeteM said:


> Hi, I somehow wondered into this post I missed. I had the same mite issue last summer ( I think southernbelle and I chatted on this in an earlier thread) and it started up again this summer with a few out of the blue leaf pitting / streaks running the length of the leaves. Mostly Cattleyas and a psyc this year. I have been using this product for mites. And I was ready for them.
> 
> AgroMagen (GS420), GrowSafe... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07M983TRL?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share
> 
> ...


----------



## Just1more (Sep 25, 2020)

Will this project take care of scale too?


----------



## PeteM (Sep 25, 2020)

I wish. This does not work on scale. It might offer some protection on new scale establishing but definitely does not kill existing scale. Here is how the label reads.

KILLS SOFT BODY INSECTS ON CONTACT-Only effective on spider mites (two-spotted mites, broad mites, russet mites), whiteflies, aphids, powdery mildew and downy mildew.
OMRI LISTED-Contains all-natural and organic food-based ingredients for organic gardening that is non-toxic and safe for humans, pets, bees, ladybugs and other beneficial predators.
UNIQUE OIL EMULSION-Our unified and stable oil blend is better and safer than other oils for plants. It mixes easily with water without separation and does not burn or suffocate the leaves, affect the plant’s development or change the fruit’s taste or flavor. It can be used from seedling up to last day of harvest.


----------



## richgarrison (Sep 25, 2020)

i've had good luck with Suffoil-x also... typically applied as part of a cocktail...



https://www.bioworksinc.com/wp-content/uploads/products/suffoil-x/suffoil-x-label.pdf


----------



## alex.sorensen51 (Sep 27, 2020)

I got the soft scale with repeat sprayings with Wilson's one shot Ant and Roach.It doesnt bother my paphs ,cattleya,and phrags


----------

