# Favoured potting media for species seedlings - suggestions please



## s1214215 (Oct 18, 2011)

I have to pot flasks of these seedlings soon.. I'd appreciate opinions on the best potting media for newly deflasked plants.. Suggestions please.

Paphiopedilum	anitum 
Paphiopedilum	charlesworthii
Paphiopedilum	concolor var.longipesalum
Paphiopedilum concolor 
Paphiopedilum	delanatii var vinicolor
Paphiopedilum	emersonii var. huonglanae 
Paphiopedilum	esquirolei alba 
Paphiopedilum	exul 
Paphiopedilum	gigantifolium 
Paphiopedilum	godefroyae 
Paphiopedilum	hangianum 
Paphiopedilum helenae
Paphiopedilum	jackii 
Paphiopedilum leucochilum 
Paphiopedilum	malipoense 
Paphiopedilum	niveum 
Paphiopedilum	randsii
Paphiopedilum	richardianum 
Paphiopedilum	sanderianum 
Paphiopedilum	sugiyamanum
Paphiopedilum	supardi 
Paphiopedilum stonei 
Paphiopedilum	toperi 
Paphiopedilum	tranlienianum 
Paphiopedilum vejvarutianum
Paphiopedilum	wenshanense

Brett


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## Roth (Oct 18, 2011)

Brachys, Orchiata grade Power, pure...
Mottled leaf parvis, barbata section multiflores etc... Orchiata grade Classic + Power about 1/1
stuff like charlesworthii barbigerum, tranlienianum, hangianum and emersonii, Orchiata grade Classic.

Translate this for 6-9mm = Classic 9:12 for Power. If you don't have, same grade + lime (calcium and magnesium carbonate blend, about 4g/L of bark)

Use 10-52-10 and metalaxyl for the first watering, then 10-52-10 for 3 weeks. Keep moist. After that, you can introduce another fertilizer, but keep the 10-52-10 at least once every two weeks.

Good luck, Vivi felice!


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## Bob Wellenstein (Oct 18, 2011)

There is no answer for your question. Every factor of your growing conditions is going to affect the others, it is a giant tangled mesh. Your humidity, light levels, temperature and temperature differentials, air movement, watering practices, water quality, fertilizer, pot size, material the pots sit on on the bench, under lights or greenhouse, greenhouse flooring material, outside climate to just name a few obvious conditions are all going to affect what potting mix you should use. All anyone can do is tell you what they have had best results with, and quite frankly before you consider that advice you probably should get an idea of what their results have been, there are a lot of people that talk a big game, but have very little evidence of real results. Their are several people on this forum who have demonstrated they are good growers, unfortunately some have left, but pay attention to them. But again, realize their conditions are different than yours. You need to work out your own best substrate. I have always favored suggesting a three part mix, one part organic substrate such as bark, one part relatively inert but not too heavy to control aeration such as sponge rock, and one part to control water retention such as sphagnum. Again these are just examples, there are numerous materials that can be used, you have to find which are available to you and useful. You can then adjust the relative quantities of these materials in the mix with experience to match your conditions, in some cases you may actually go to zero level on one or more of them. But you need to work put a mix that provides the right air and water levels and pH, and no one else online can tell you exactly what that should be. If you are totally at a loss where to start, find a Paph grower with similar consitions to yours and arrange a visit, look at their plants to be sure they are growing to the level you want, and then learn everything you can about how they grow. I hope there are no major typos, my iPad will not let me go back and check right now and it tends to change words. Good luck, observe your plants and you'll become a god grower.


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## Mocchaccino (Oct 18, 2011)

Bob Wellenstein said:


> There is no answer for your question. Every factor of your growing conditions is going to affect the others, it is a giant tangled mesh. Your humidity, light levels, temperature and temperature differentials, air movement, watering practices, water quality, fertilizer, pot size, material the pots sit on on the bench, under lights or greenhouse, greenhouse flooring material, outside climate to just name a few obvious conditions are all going to affect what potting mix you should use. All anyone can do is tell you what they have had best results with, and quite frankly before you consider that advice you probably should get an idea of what their results have been, there are a lot of people that talk a big game, but have very little evidence of real results. Their are several people on this forum who have demonstrated they are good growers, unfortunately some have left, but pay attention to them. But again, realize their conditions are different than yours. You need to work out your own best substrate. I have always favored suggesting a three part mix, one part organic substrate such as bark, one part relatively inert but not too heavy to control aeration such as sponge rock, and one part to control water retention such as sphagnum. Again these are just examples, there are numerous materials that can be used, you have to find which are available to you and useful. You can then adjust the relative quantities of these materials in the mix with experience to match your conditions, in some cases you may actually go to zero level on one or more of them. But you need to work put a mix that provides the right air and water levels and pH, and no one else online can tell you exactly what that should be. If you are totally at a loss where to start, find a Paph grower with similar consitions to yours and arrange a visit, look at their plants to be sure they are growing to the level you want, and then learn everything you can about how they grow. I hope there are no major typos, my iPad will not let me go back and check right now and it tends to change words. Good luck, observe your plants and you'll become a god grower.



I agree with Bob and he gets the point as well. There's no absolute answer to your question. I very much appreciate your collection. However based on your questioning, I think you might be quite risky to try such a large number of flasks. If you choose an inappropriate potting mix, you maybe suffering from a big loss. 

It's always the best to try a few in order to get a feeling of what the seedlings need. Otherwise you bear the consequence.


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## Bob Wellenstein (Oct 18, 2011)

Just want to add I don't want to discourage others to give your suggestions, it would just be more helpful if you also describe what your growing conditions are so that Brett and others can interpret your information in light of their conditions.


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## Shiva (Oct 18, 2011)

Bob Wellenstein said:


> There is no answer for your question. Every factor of your growing conditions is going to affect the others, it is a giant tangled mesh.



Bob is absolutely right and I would add only a few comments. Keep the mix as simple as possible at first (maybe an already made orchid mix for your size plant). Then learn by observation. Does the plant grow well in that mix? Is it moist enough or too moist? All other factors like light, air movement, temperature and fertilizing will then come in and you'll have to adjust to those factors. And don't bite too much at once. You'll know by observation when you have nailed down the right formula for you.
if you can, join an orchid club. You will learn tons about growing orchids and some clubs will even give potting lessons to new members.
And lastly, don't be affraid to ask dumb questions. Only dumb people don't ask questions. Good luck with your fine list of plants! :drool:


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## Rick (Oct 18, 2011)

I think the big push with Orchiata bark goes back to all the nutrition talk we've been having on reducing K, upping Ca/Mg, and matching N type to irrigation alkalinity levels.

On top of that the humidity control is more important to seedlings than large established plants.

So I'm finding that potting mix may not be that important compared to nutrition and humidity/lighting.

Orchiata bark mixes would probably work just fine (They are already ammended with Ca/Mg. I'm using something similar to Bob's generic description. Some kind of small bark or CHC, chopped sphagnum, perlite/charcoal, and usually some sand. I use slotted berry containers as containers, so these are getting close to baskets. The drain very well, lots of aeration

I start all my seedlings (multis, parvis, brachy,barbata....) in kind of a Wardian case with good humidity and temp control. Compact florescent lighting. 

If anything over the years, I've toned down the amount of fertilizer I apply to seedlings, and now with my push to reduce relative K, I'm not getting the big stall at 3-6 months like I used to.


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## Shiva (Oct 18, 2011)

Orchiata is not available everywhere. In Canada, any bark coming from the US or elsewhere has to be fumigated to kill all potential pests. Thus we can't get any orchiata bark in this country. Only Rexius is coming in (after fumigation) but the demand greatly outstrips the offer.


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## JeanLux (Oct 18, 2011)

Roth said:


> ..... *Orchiata* grade Power, pure...




Is there anyone able to bring those guys delivering their products to Europe!!?? Jean


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## Rick (Oct 18, 2011)

I would say Brett that with the 26 different species/varieties, I don't think there is a significant requirement for using different mixes for each species.

I change up mixes somewhat from one batch of seedling to another, and occaisonally repot a batch of seedlings in a different mix if I don't like how they are coming along in the original mix.

But overall I've never seen big differences among the individual species (as seedlings) in different mixes (i.e multis get the same as barbata to start with), and never lost a whole batch of seedlings over the short term to a certain type of mix.

In some ways another approach is to look at what mix is working good for your adult plants and just make the particle size smaller to support the smaller seedlings. Finer substrates will tend to hold more water, but if you keep the mix somewhat shallow in a well draining pot then you compensate for over watering.


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## paphioboy (Oct 18, 2011)

Do you know how much some of these sell for in Australia on ebay? :crazy: You're sitting on a potential goldmine if you grow them up a bit and auction the not-so-nice ones one by one..


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## s1214215 (Oct 18, 2011)

Thanks everyone. I have some experience of potting paphs, but less so with seedlings. I was thinking of bark mix with . A friend also suggested a bark mix with perlite to air it up some. I was just thinking it would be a good idea to see what everyone else is doing.

Paphioboy, some of these species are not the regular forms either. The wenshanense, stonei, esqueireli are albas for a start, and I dont know if I have seen thaianum here. I imported FS plants of them too. Well getting off topic,

THanks everyone, it was very helpful. I will take pics as I deflask.

Brett


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## Paul (Oct 18, 2011)

Hi,
Very smal bark, perlite and I add chopped hemp (the one for mouse and hamster). this works very well for me with all species.


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## paphreek (Oct 19, 2011)

I agree with Bob W. Conditions will dictate what works best. When I grew in the house and deflasked under relatively dry conditions, (35-60% RH), a moisture retaining mix with fine coconut husk chips as the major part worked great with very little mortality. 

Now that I'm in the greenhouse, with relative humidity in the 70-80+% range, I've replaced the CHC with fine pinus radiata (Kiwi Bark brand). I still mix in some small charcoal and large perlite to give variation in particle shape to produce more air gaps as the fine bark tends to lay flat and compact by itself.


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## s1214215 (Oct 19, 2011)

I have gone with a mix of small and medium bark and perlite today for 4 paph flasks that I had to put into quarantine. Sadly out of near 300 flasks I had 20 infect in/post flight (1 days in transit and 3 in Customs). Still the quarantine is not to expensive here. I suspect the Customs dept inspected some flasks a little too closely as some corks were loose. Still cant prove anything.

I talked to the officer at the quarantine station and he said they had best success with the mix we used.

Brett


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## Roth (Oct 19, 2011)

s1214215 said:


> I have gone with a mix of small and medium bark and perlite today for 4 paph flasks that I had to put into quarantine. Sadly out of near 300 flasks I had 20 infect in/post flight (1 days in transit and 3 in Customs). Still the quarantine is not to expensive here. I suspect the Customs dept inspected some flasks a little too closely as some corks were loose. Still cant prove anything.
> 
> I talked to the officer at the quarantine station and he said they had best success with the mix we used.
> 
> Brett



It has nothing to do with the customs believe me. The problem is that, before, we could use picric acid on the cotton that is stuff in the plug's hole. It greatly reduced this problem. Now it is strictly forbidden, for fear of accidents. 

Some labs use as well a very loose plastic cap to vent the flask.

Both work the same way, they do not 'filter' the air entering the flask like a coffee filter, but the length of the fibers of the cotton stuffed in the plug makes a 'tortuous path filter' which makes the particle stuck somewhere along the path, before the inside of the flask.

For the loose plastic flask ( Wavin, Vitrovent, etc...), there is an inverted 'U' shape to the side of the lid, where it joins the flask itself. Same system, the contaminants cannot go up and down, in theory and in a controlled environment ( and if they are not mites of course...)

During the flight, the pressure changes will suck in air and contaminants from the cotton plug, and it will make the flasks contaminated. You have absolutely no idea about the temperature and pressure variation in cargo, but it is really tremendous. That's why there are contamination when the flasks arrive.

Some Taiwanese labs too do not care about some types of contamination ( the kind of grayish 1mm spots all around the agar plate as an example), because they are not disturbing to the plant growth. 

In Thailand, they have the cotton plug and hole in the horizontal way, so usually the contamination shows close to the opening/plug. In Taiwan, it is on top of the flask, so the contaminants are kind of aerosolized inside the flask and contaminate the whole plate.

And for those who advertise the adhesive venting disks such as PTFE... they work quite well, as long as the glue that sticks them to the plug is properly squashed and there are no air bubbles. If there are air bubbles, they can loosen during the freight transportation. Some models too become permanently hydrophilic on contact with alcohol... making a royal avenue to contaminants.

As an aside note, I got plants delivered by bus and by plane from HCMC to Hanoi, by plane it took 2 hours, bus nearly three days. So far I realize that the ones that traveled by bus restart way better than the ones that traveled by plane, same batch, same plants ( I was overweight in HCMC, so I had to unload two boxes to the bus immediately). In some cases the pressure and temperature in the freight area of the airplane ( there are several places, compartments, etc...) can be enough to damage the plants in transportation. Not enough to freeze or kill instant, but enough to disturb the plants for a while.


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## TyroneGenade (Oct 19, 2011)

I use concentrated copper sulfate to contamination-protect my flasks. I drop a few drops on the cotton wool. So far so very good. I stopped getting contamination after I started doing this. I'm told Mercurochrome works well too. I got this advice from Ian Walters of Burleigh Park Orchid Nursery.

I have now, however, changed my flasking routine. I just use plastic tub with no venting what so ever. So far the plants are not complaining. The tubs are retaining humidity and the plants growing well. Polypropylene plastic is permeable to gases (O3, CO2, ethylene etc...). The plants in the tubes with thinner walls do better though. I have had NO contamination problems at all. Sterilization is also easy: spray the inside of the tub and lid with 12% H2O2, seal and let stand overnight. Next day you pour in the sterile medium in the laminar flow, let set and off you go.

Glad you made it home Brett. Seemed to me you would never escape Thailand!


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## poozcard (Oct 19, 2011)

i use bark + LECA + daily watering 
works well here


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## cnycharles (Oct 19, 2011)

I would echo that with the seedlings, if you can provide good humidity then it's better to err on the side of having a little more drainage. ..a little air movement always helps as well


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## s1214215 (Oct 19, 2011)

Hi. Actually the flask breathers were treated before shipping, I said that some corks appeared to have been loosened on some of the infected flasks.. Which is not normal, particularly the way I pack. I suspect they had been opened, but I cant prove it. Any way, atleast the infections were all minor, just a little penicillin type mould in the odd spot and no affect to the plants. I expect to get them from quarantine in three months.

We potted them yesterday and left them in plastic containers to maintain humidity for the first week to harden them up a bit.


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## Justin (Oct 19, 2011)

s1214215 said:


> Hi. Actually the flask breathers were treated before shipping, I said that some corks appeared to have been loosened on some of the infected flasks.. Which is not normal, particularly the way I pack. I suspect they had been opened, but I cant prove it. Any way, atleast the infections were all minor, just a little penicillin type mould in the odd spot and no affect to the plants. I expect to get them from quarantine in three months.
> 
> We potted them yesterday and left them in plastic containers to maintain humidity for the first week to harden them up a bit.



My two tips...I would avoid covering them to allow airflow, also avoid over-watering or watering too frequently.


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## s1214215 (Oct 20, 2011)

The agents at the Q-house are experienced with paphs out of flask, so I am letting them do as they will on this one. They will be examining the plants daily as they are required to under law. I will go visit them next week to see how things are looking, so if I can I will take some pics

Brett


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## cnycharles (Oct 20, 2011)

do you have to unflask all of them and quarantine, or just ones they see mold in?


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## keithrs (Oct 20, 2011)

I have most of my seedlings under dooms but I have a small fan on the side of each doom. Works well for the seedlings I'm growing.


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## quietaustralian (Oct 21, 2011)

My deflaking method is almost identical to Bob's (see link below). There are so many variables ie time of year, condition of plants etc that I seldom follow the same procedure every time. 

http://www.ladyslipper.com/compot2.html

Regards, Mick


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## biothanasis (Oct 21, 2011)

Good luck and happy growing Brett...


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