# Mix combination question



## patrix (Nov 26, 2006)

I just order some coconut chips and have big bag of rock wool cubes and one of aliflor, I also have a giant bag of bark and some perlite. what are your ideas on ratios and would it be the same for both paphs and phrags. I look at the pictures posted on this site and try to determine what people are using-usually I am distracted by the remarkable flowers. I also splurged on some air cone pots per SOF suggestions

Your recent thread on growing areas prompted me to clean my up and I will try to post a picture or two- I printed the instructions. Lastly, whoever made the suggestion about not getting H20 in paph crowns-I am greatefful. I have orchids hanging above the paphs and had let the water just drip-but I cut a trash bag on the seams and spread it over them like a raincoat-they appear much happier. 

Thanks for any ideas on the mix- I want good roots and have trouble with them


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## Mahon (Nov 26, 2006)

patrix said:


> I just order some coconut chips and have big bag of rock wool cubes and one of aliflor, I also have a giant bag of bark and some perlite. what are your ideas on ratios and would it be the same for both paphs and phrags. I look at the pictures posted on this site and try to determine what people are using-usually I am distracted by the remarkable flowers. I also splurged on some air cone pots per SOF suggestions
> 
> Your recent thread on growing areas prompted me to clean my up and I will try to post a picture or two- I printed the instructions. Lastly, whoever made the suggestion about not getting H20 in paph crowns-I am greatefful. I have orchids hanging above the paphs and had let the water just drip-but I cut a trash bag on the seams and spread it over them like a raincoat-they appear much happier.
> 
> Thanks for any ideas on the mix- I want good roots and have trouble with them



Patrix,

I would not reccomend CHC (Coconut Husk Chips) for any of your orchids. Xavier Garreau de Loubresse did the initial research upon CHC (with analysis), and came up with many findings. Xavier found that if you wash the CHC with Calcium Nitrate and Magnesium Sulfate, and use RO water to remove the salts, the CHC will be good from a few weeks to a few months. I won't go into great detail about how CHC is not good for orchids without the consent of Xavier. 

-PM


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## Stephan (Nov 26, 2006)

I have a funny feeling that the quality of CHC depends higly on the supplier and the area it came from.

Last year there was a fair amount of chatter back and forth about CHC and how plants were responding so positively to it. Then a post detailing, in very scientifitic terms, how dangerous it "could" be was posted which scared the $^#* out of me. But not entirely.

I have an insigne that's been in raw, (then) untreated CHC now for a little over 16 months - it's saturated, looks unhealthy but the roots have grown to the bottom and out of the pot. When I first got the insigne it was part of a multi growth pot which I broke up. There are only three survivors from the five plants I got. Guess which media they were in. 

Cheers
Stephan


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## Mahon (Nov 26, 2006)

Stephan said:


> I have a funny feeling that the quality of CHC depends higly on the supplier and the area it came from.
> 
> Last year there was a fair amount of chatter back and forth about CHC and how plants were responding so positively to it. Then a post detailing, in very scientifitic terms, how dangerous it "could" be was posted which scared the $^#* out of me. But not entirely.
> 
> ...



Stephan,

Xavier mentioned something about this too... CHC is sometimes contaminated with Fusarium, which produces hormones that promotes strong root growth. As soon as the hormones run out, the plant will die. 

As for the leaves, that is expected when growing in CHC... Not to be rude or anything, but I would suggest transfering your plant into some other sort of medium other than CHC... 

And as for "could" be dangerous, I believe there is enough research done by Xavier to prove that CHC is nothing but deadly, treated or not. It takes time, and not always will it have the same effects as others.

-Pat


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## TADD (Nov 26, 2006)

Actually my findings have been roughly the opposite. I had a very hard time with bark material. I switched all of my small collection over to a CHC about (3 years ago), spongerock, aliflor mix. My plants have done pretty darn well for growing inside under lights in my house. The only exception I have had a bit of trouble with was brachy species. The hybrids do well, but I have lost a few concolor, bellatulums, etc... I think it is more of a culture issue on my part, not enought research etc... 
My collection is only about 200 plants, but I feel that it has been more successful because of the CHC. My small pot combo is about 50 1/2 CHC (small), 1/4 Aliflor/ diatomite(small chunks), and 1/8 spongerock, and 1/8 small charcoal. I think my math is right.... My big pot combo is the same ratio, I just use the bigger CHC, diatomite, and charcoal pieces. 

I do adjust my mix for certain plants more aliflor, etc...


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## likespaphs (Nov 26, 2006)

a link to antec about their experiences using chc:
mmm... antec.


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## Marco (Nov 26, 2006)

Patrix this might be more info than you asked for but here goes.

I recently moved all my paphs into this mix from an s/h setup. It was a hit or miss. Some of my paphs loved s/h some didn't and had massive root loss the results were a little to variable for me. 

My mix now is approximately 1 chc (medium but if theyre to big i break them up into smaller pieces) .25 alifor, .25 diatomite (small-medium), .25 charcoal(small-medium) in aircones. As I put the mix in the pot I layer it up in fine perlite mixed with chopped sphag about every half an inch of mix that I put in. In the pot towards the center I put a bamboo skewer that I use to check the moisture and water. I water when its almost dry but not bone dry. I test the skewer on my wrist to see if its moist.

On the CHC I agree Stephan. I would ask the vendor you recieved the chc from whether or not it was prewashed. None the less even if it was prewashed I usually soak the CHC in water for several days with regular water changes. Also here's a link on some info on how to clean CHC http://ladyslipper.com/coco3.htm (antec as lots of great info in the reading room)

I grow warm with temp fluctuations from day to night of 85f-75f and my humidity ranges from 50%-65%. My plants are on an east facing window supplemented with lights for about 12-14 hours a day. I usually water every 2-3 days. Here's a photo of a Paph. stonei, on the left, that I recieved a month or two back from Gore Orchids and a Paph. Vera Pellechia (didn't put perlite and chopped sphag in this one) from Ratcliff right before they closed.







After 2 weeks of having the stonei in a CHC mix the roots (one circled in blue grew at least 5-6 inches cause it wrapped around from the other side of the pot) just kept on growing and growing. It was actually what prompted me to go bug Matt on the mix he used and I did my best mirror it and my paphs so far seem to like to it. One key thing that many people seem to stress on any type of organic medium is to repot in fresh mix at least yearly.

Sorry for the long post. I hope your eyes don't hurt to much.


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## TADD (Nov 26, 2006)

Awesome POST!!!!! I will have to photo some of minez!


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## patrix (Nov 26, 2006)

Thanks, I got it from Machilea orchids. It was listed as prewashed though he recommends soaking and rinse with water changes at least twice. I had only heard very good things about this "pop" medium whichis why I ordered some. The people in our local orchid club, one is a professional grower, rave about it whichis why I bought some-you know we want only the best for our orchid babies, but not I am not so sure. I would rather not sacrifice a plant, even one that is doing poorly would not necessarily be an indication of mix intergrity. I have already repotted (9-1-06) about 1/2 of my paphs into a combo of rock wool cubes (2 parts), aliflor (2 parts) and perlite (1 part) as I am seeking a mixture I do not need to redo annually (laziness) It was then that I noticed many had few if any roots but the tops were doing good. I changed my watering techniques and they are looking terrific, spiking and appear very robust-I am too chicken sh*t to pull them out of the pot to root check but it seems that they would have been dead with no roots since early September-sorry for the ramble on on this post but the medicine gives me energy today.

Please consider these questions

1. I have well water, does that make a difference (aside from MSU) and would it hurt to do my final soaking in a dilute rooting hormone?

2. Is it better to use less of it in the ratio you will suggest with the other ingrediants I listed in the inital post?

3. If I feed it to the mischievious children who stuff my mailbox full of leaves and they; a) live, b) wither or C) grow like the people in the old Wonderbread ads- can I transfer the iinfomation of this scientific study to the orchids

Thanks for all of the helpful responses from good members


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## Mahon (Nov 26, 2006)

Here's a little more input:

Xavier was the one who did the research on CHC and discovered the need for the washing. The washing will only make the CHC "good" for a certain period of time, from a few weeks to a few months. I am almost sure there are exceptions. So actually, pre-washed CHC would make no matter, unless you have a fettish for repotting. I feel as if the research Xavier did is absolutely correct. I also feel you are juggling chainsaws if you want to grow in CHC...

...and if your plants are doing bad in CHC, why would you keep growing? This isn't a answer to sound rude, it is just a question. Out of curiosity, how long have some of you grown in CHC? What are the other components in the medium?

And Antec, I believe, does not use CHC anymore... I found Bob's reply, but I forget...

-Pat


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## patrix (Nov 26, 2006)

Mahon you did not read my post, I do not have anything in CHC at this time, which is why I made the post. 

I do not consider you an expert on anything but find you very annoying so please do not respond to any more of my posts ever. Your consistently irritating behavior to the members of this forum have strongly suggested that you have a some sort of emotional maturity problem, your juvenile responses to their posts and questions clearly confirms it.Again please do not respond to any more of my posts as you not credible in any sense of the word. I really wonder if it is worth keep you as a member with all of the CHAOS you create, however it is not my decision.


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## Mahon (Nov 26, 2006)

patrix said:


> Mahon you did not read my post, I do not have anything in CHC at this time, which is why I made the post.
> 
> I do not consider you an expert on anything but find you very annoying so please do not respond to any more of my posts ever. Your consistently irritating behavior to the members of this forum have strongly suggested that you have a some sort of emotional maturity problem, your juvenile responses to their posts and questions clearly confirms it.Again please do not respond to any more of my posts as you not credible in any sense of the word. I really wonder if it is worth keep you as a member with all of the CHAOS you create, however it is not my decision.



Patrix,

I have not claimed to be an expert on anything. Please read through the posts, and you will see you are quite incorrect. Also, read your FIRST post on your thread. You clearly say you have CHC, perhaps I might in fact be an expert.

As for CHC, I thought it would be nice to post some information about it. People like yourself is why the person who I am quoting will not post here.

Your ignorance is more than I can handle! Remember; rule #5, or does that rule loose it's effect when harrassing or accusing people that are not well liked for unknown reasons?

Besides, I believe I was posting as a response to someone else, and wanted to know experience with it, as I am NOT an expert on CHC at all. I can direct you to the actual expert, if you are interested.

-PM

EDIT: I thought I would change this after being harrassed. I have no personal problem with you, except what you just posted. Please explain how I make "chaos", it seems as if the overly-exaggerated drama on other's parts is the "chaos".


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## Tony (Nov 26, 2006)

I use a bark/perlite/charcoal/diatomite mix with a touch of sphagnum. Results have been good so far, but I've only had them for two months at the most. I know Stephen (silence882) uses a CHC mix, and all the plants he has sent me have incredibe roots.


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## gonewild (Nov 26, 2006)

In Peru I have plants growing in CHC for 6 years without problems. Some grow in straight fiber and some are mixed with carbon. Straight fiber has a tendency to water log if the container is large. 

I might add the material I use in Peru is hand cut by our gardener from local coconuts. The coconuts we have are not associated with salt water and so may not have the sodium content of Asian CHC. Any accumulated salts should leach out with a good soaking. If you are concerned about salt content it would be very simple to test the salt content of the CHC with an inexpensive EC (ppm) meter.

As far as soaking the fiber in well water or RO water.... This depends on the salt content of your well water. RO water will leach more salt faster than well water but if well water is easier to come by just use it.

CHC is a spin off of coir fiber production. Coir fiber is made by soaking the husk in water (perhaps salty water). The husk will pick up salt during this process but I don't see any reason chopped husk would need the soaking process so maybe there is some confusion between the two products about toxicity.

And finally to lay to rest any claim of coconut Husk being toxic... I was contacted by a rep from Speedling Inc who happens to be a friend in California. He told me Speedling was switching from peat moss in their mix to coir after doing extensive trials. They found coir to be superior in results and cheaper and more environmentally friendly. His advice to me was to plant coconuts for the future use of horticulture. It case you don't know, Speedling Inc is a huge producer of plug seedlings, their product is far more sensitive to salts than are orchids.

So use your CHC without fear, just learn how to water any mix you create.


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## gonewild (Nov 26, 2006)

patrix said:


> I just order some coconut chips and have big bag of rock wool cubes and one of aliflor, I also have a giant bag of bark and some perlite. what are your ideas on ratios and would it be the same for both paphs and phrags.
> Thanks for any ideas on the mix- I want good roots and have trouble with them



Mix everything you have together and it will make a good mix regardless of the ratios. You can grow good roots in any one of your ingredients alone if you water and fertilize accordingly. The ratio content of ingredients in a mix is really of little importance. What is important is the moisture, air and nutrient content (ratio). Whatever ratio of ingredients you use, you just need to adjust your growing habits to fit.


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## Heather (Nov 26, 2006)

Mahon (or Xavier, since you're a member here as well...), 

Has Xavier published his findings anywhere? I, for one, would certainly be interested in reading them. 

I did not have my Paphs and Phrags in CHC long enough to comment but while they were in it, I had no issues, and excellent root growth.


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## likespaphs (Nov 26, 2006)

patrix said:


> ...Please consider these questions
> 
> 1. I have well water, does that make a difference (aside from MSU) and would it hurt to do my final soaking in a dilute rooting hormone?
> 
> ...



1. water, depending on the mineral content (and possibly salt content) could make a difference. i've heard of people who are having problems with the new form of chlorine-type being used in municipal water systems... the mineral content of the water could greatly effect the type and amount of fertilizer used. also, depending upon the pH of the water, other additives might be needed to adjust the pH.

2. the best mix, in my opinion, is one with which i am familiar and will be able to easily determine when to water, fertilize, repot, etc...

3. i think this is a silly question. i don't answer silly questions... i just pose them.:crazy:


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## Mahon (Nov 26, 2006)

gonewild said:


> And finally to lay to rest any claim of coconut Husk being toxic... I was contacted by a rep from Speedling Inc who happens to be a friend in California. He told me Speedling was switching from peat moss in their mix to coir after doing extensive trials. They found coir to be superior in results and cheaper and more environmentally friendly. His advice to me was to plant coconuts for the future use of horticulture. It case you don't know, Speedling Inc is a huge producer of plug seedlings, their product is far more sensitive to salts than are orchids.
> 
> So use your CHC without fear, just learn how to water any mix you create.



Out of curiousity, how can you lay to rest that coconut husk is not toxic with the analysis and research done? It is possible that CHC will not affect orchids in the short run, and possibly, if repotted frequently, there will be no effects. Good root growth is initiated by hormones. When the hormones are gone, so is the plant.

The salts in CHC are not the issue, it's the hormones in it. The salts in CHC can be leeched easily with RO water, yet the CHC still hasn't been treated with Calcium Nitrate and Magnesium Sulfate.

And I would put down any false claims in order to sell my products. I find in orchids that there marketing, and then there is research. The cheap plants of Paph. rothschildianum we have in the US are "awarded", so they fetch higher prices, when in fact, they originated from very cheap stock, not selected plants.

-Pat

*EDIT: What the ____? This post was edited? I didn't write this: "And I would put down any false claims in order to sell my products." I don't have any products to sell...*


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## Mahon (Nov 26, 2006)

Heather said:


> Mahon (or Xavier, since you're a member here as well...),
> 
> Has Xavier published his findings anywhere? I, for one, would certainly be interested in reading them.
> 
> I did not have my Paphs and Phrags in CHC long enough to comment but while they were in it, I had no issues, and excellent root growth.



Heather,

Lance Birk and I are encouraging Xavier to publish his research. Xavier told me that a book can be written on CHC... The CHC is good up until a certain point, and then is dangerous (and deadly) for the plant. According to Xavier, the hormones in CHC promote excessive root growth, yet when the hormones are gone, the plant wil die. This is why people are fooled by CHC, becuase of the short term effects. He also mentioned that the source of coconut husk and the time of year it was harvested is another factor for CHC. 

-Pat


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Nov 26, 2006)

I will start off saying that I have never read the works of Xavier or any potting mix experts. That said there may be some truth in it and it may be worth reading and throwing on the balancing scale of advice. This is not for me to say, as I have my own opinions which have been shaped by my doings and those of people around me.

The simple answer is, experiment. No one has the same conditions and a potting mix that does well in some conditions may be a bad idea in others. I have seen orchids grown well in so many different things I can honestly say there is no "perfect mix". I can say one thing about them though, and that is that each mix, no matter how off the wall, allowed the factors for healthy root growth inside those growing conditions. These factors are simply moisture, air, and minimal "pollutants". The ratio of these things will determine if you have healthy growing roots or mush.

Slipper roots as a whole need air. If your roots are constantly wet and get no air you will get an incredible case of rot, though there are some phrags that break this rule. If your roots get minimal moisture and lots of air, they will dehydrate on the other extreme, again with a couple exceptions. Your conditons outside the pot will further influence your conditions inside the pot, so they must be considered as well.

So what is a good mix? A good mix is one that allows both moisture and air around the roots without one element overwhelming the other. Think of the feeling a paper towel has after it has been soaked and completely rung out. It is neither wet nor dry, as it has an airy damp feel to it. To me, this feeling is what slipper roots want to be surrounded by. In your conditions, this will take some fine tuning of components to determine what gives you this feel and how long it will last. Obviously after watering, the mix is soaked, but over the time period between that initial soaking and the time it takes to dry out you get this condition. It is also important that the whole pot have these conditions, as it is common to have perfect conditions in the middle two inches but be too dry on top and too wet on the bottom leading to a plant with dehydrated roots that don't penetrate the mix on top and rotted roots at the bottom of the pot. Many growers will counteract this by using styrofoam peanuts on the bottom and moss/rockwool on top making a potting mix sandwich of sorts to keep conditions even throughout the pot. 

Onto your initial question, with the above considered, I think you do indeed have some great components to make a great mix out of. I will have to guess your growing conditions and base my advice on what I would use if growing in your shoes. First off, I have seen so many people who's culture I bow down to use CHC for many years that I will not dare bash it as a component. I do bash bark down a little out of resentment from my early years, but again some of the best growers out there who we think may have a magical spring they water from use bark. My personal mix is fastly becoming half expanded clay(hydroton, aliflor, prime agra, etc) and half small rockwool cubes. I would however not recommend this mix if your humidity is not consistently over 75% as it dries out very quickly even in high humidity. A guess at a good mix for you would be 2 parts CHC, 3 parts aliflor, and 1 part rockwool cubes. Once you have a ratio you want to try, test it! Fill a pot with it, sit it with your plants, water it, and see how it responds over the next week. If it dries too quickly, add more rockwool cubes and/or CHC to the mix. If it stays too wet add more aliflor or don't use the rockwool cubes. Experiment, experiment, experiment! No one in this hobby has all the answers, and if they say they do they are spending too much time spouting other's experiments as gospel rather than doing their own.

I hope that somewhat answered your questions, even if in more of a "catch a man to fish..." kind of way.

Jon


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## likespaphs (Nov 26, 2006)

do you mean, "teach a man to fish..."?
catch a man to fish is whole different ball of wax!

one thing about rockwool that scares me a little is, and i'm not entirely sure of this so i may be wrong, but i thought that it is either a possible carcinogen or, because it's made from spun glass, the dust is very bad for people. 
anyone know if either is correct or if i just took a few half facts and put them together in a way that made it greater than the whole?


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## Mahon (Nov 26, 2006)

I think that you have mixed potting medium and analysis together...

CHC has certain things in it that, over time, are deadly to orchids. Talking about conditions is a different thing though. Conditions may increases or decrease this amount of time it take for a plant suffering in CHC (though it will fool you with root growth) to die. 

I realize what you said. I bragged about my findings on humus (no analysis though)... it has been THE BEST medium for me. But the humus may not work in other's conditions. Perhaps it will turn toxic in different conditions, I don't know yet. But for my conditions, I have never been able to grow Paph. micranthum and Paph. malipoense so well...

I feel the analysis is important for mediums though. Xavier has tests done on limestone for his plants, which will explain nice green plants, and then plants suffering from chlorosis... different sources of things will yield different results.

Again, I don't claim to be an expert. Very interesting though Jon.

-Pat


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## Marco (Nov 26, 2006)

patrix said:


> 1. I have well water, does that make a difference (aside from MSU) and would it hurt to do my final soaking in a dilute rooting hormone?



My final soaking is in a straight 1tsp of KLN per 2 gallons of water. I do it cause it's whats generally recommended. Is it helpful? That I don't know but it doesn't seem like its hurting my plants so I'm just going to continue on using it.

I don't use superthrive though 1) cause it smells like medicine and 2) flowers on a phal came out deformed but that I think happened cause I used to much superthrive for to long of a period. 3) KLN is so much cheaper 

Tadd & Jon - Great post replys. I think the chunks I used in my smaller pots are too big. I use the same size chunks as my BS plants. Thanks you guys prompted me to keep an eye out on my seedlings in tiny pots.


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## patrix (Nov 26, 2006)

thanks for the responses from reputable members. I had repotted 1/2 (9-06)of the paphs in rock wool, alifor and big chunk perlite and was concerned it was staying too wet. Now I am hand watering each-no h20 in the crown- and seeing alot of good top growth-i just hope it is happening below ground too. I will step up the humity and think that the layering idea is great -thanks again


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## Heather (Nov 26, 2006)

I have not heard fabulous reports from Glen Decker who used rockwool on his phrags for a while. I think though that Uri (Paphjoint) uses rockwool growcubes almost exclusively. 

I guess I am saying "your mileage may vary" ?


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## Tony (Nov 26, 2006)

patrix said:


> -i just hope it is happening below ground too.




Have you tried clear plastic pots? You can see root growth, and also how wet your medium is.


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## Heather (Nov 26, 2006)

Oh, what Tony said - you said you got some aircones? Good call! They (or their S/H equivalents) rock!! 

Clear pots taught me how to grow. Seriously. They are invaluable in my opinion!


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## gonewild (Nov 26, 2006)

Mahon said:


> Out of curiousity, how can you lay to rest that coconut husk is not toxic with the analysis and research done?



As I said, I have orchids that have been growing in CHC for 6 years without re potting. I have never seen or read research published that shows coconut fiber to be toxic to orchids. I would be happy to see it if it exists. My experience which I'm sharing with this forum is how I lay it to rest. It is my opinion, you have the opportunity to prove me wrong if you can. Present facts.

Here is a plant planted in CHC and then put back into a coconut as a pot. It has been in the same coconut with with the same CHC for years. It has also been located in over a dozen different locations. I see no signs of toxicity.









> It is possible that CHC will not affect orchids in the short run, and possibly, if repotted frequently, there will be no effects.



Not only is it possible it is a certainty.



> Good root growth is initiated by hormones. When the hormones are gone, so is the plant.



Maybe someone has redesigned plant biology while I was away? In the old days plant hormones were produced in the tissue of the plant itself. 

Growing plants do not get their hormones from the soil. Root growth is controlled by auxins produced in the tissue of the plant itself *not from hormones in the soil*. You are confusing synthetic rooting compounds containing root initiation acids (IBA, NAA) with the natural plant auxin IAA. IBA and NAA can cause rootless stem tissue to initiate advantageous roots. Once the roots are growing the "hormones" are of no use to the plant and in fact their presence in excess may be toxic to a plant, but not their lack of.



> The salts in CHC are not the issue, it's the hormones in it.



So you are saying CHC contains natural hormones that effect plant growth and once depleted the plant dies. Do some study research on the internet. Give one link on the internet to research that suggests a plant will die when the soil runs out of hormones. Google for plant hormones and report back your new findings.



> The salts in CHC can be leeched easily with RO water, yet the CHC still hasn't been treated with Calcium Nitrate and Magnesium Sulfate.



Lost me here, what does Calcium Nitrate and Magnesium Sulfate have to do with your statement?



> And I would put down any false claims in order to sell my products.



I'm not selling CHC. I don't even use it here in the USA. I use it in Peru because the coconuts just keep piling up in the garden. But since you brought up the subject I'll ask you a question...

Here I'm growing my orchids in inert ceramic (PrimeAgra). Where are the plants getting their hormones from?



> I find in orchids that there marketing, and then there is research.



I assume you mean here that research done by a company selling something will be slanted to favor their product. Don't think for a second that independent research is not slanted toward something the researcher would like to prove.

Most research is funded by someone selling something. That is why you should do your own tests and report the findings. But then I suppose if you discovered something that worked well, you would want to market it.



> The cheap plants of Paph. rothschildianum we have in the US are "awarded", so they fetch higher prices, when in fact, they originated from very cheap stock, not selected plants.



Cheap stock? A "cheap selection" is a selection of plants is it not? The fact someone selected a cheap plant to present it for an award means it is selected. Not really sure what your point is or what it has to do with coconuts and hormones?

-Pat[/QUOTE]


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## Ernie (Nov 26, 2006)

*Chc*

Lots of good info. IMO none of it is wrong! Grow in what works for you under your conditions and watering/fertilizing scheme. If you want to try something new, test a couple plants in it before going nuts. Allow them to stay in that mix for at least 6-12 months before you make any decisions. A potting mix should...
-support your plant
-hold water AND AIR near the roots without retaining too many excess salts
-dry at a rate that is suitable to your growing environment and watering habits/methods
-be available to you
-be reasonably affordable
-break down at a rate that does not exceed reasonable expectations of repotting
-WORK for you

-Ernie


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## Mahon (Nov 26, 2006)

Lance,

I believe you have very general statements... there is in fact MUCH research done. I will now post the email I recieved from Xavier Garreau de Loubresse:



> I discontinued use of coconut products several years ago. They must
> soak in a XXXX AMOUNT calcium nitrate solution for at least a week, rinsed,
> then in a XXXX AMOUNT magnesium sulfate solution for same time. Then
> the 'salts' must be removed with RO wated + XXXX AMOUNT of calcium
> ...



Another discussion with Xavier:



> Now in Europe the latest fashion is rockwhool cubes, and
> it will be a disaster, I tried before. I feel it is not enough to say
> it does not work, there are analysis mineral, and others, to support
> the fact that some substrates cannot work at all for paphs, or for
> ...



Hope this helps on CHC. I am careful to exclude details of his research. My thanks to Xavier. 

-PM


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## Rick (Nov 26, 2006)

I've only been growing since spring 2001, but I do have orchids that have done very well in CHC for over 3 years. A couple of these have not been repotted over this same time period. I just repotted my lowii after 2 years in the same CHC mix.

I also have plants that I have reppoted after less than a year in the mix. Most of these have been Barbata sp paphs. Some have gone back into fresh CHC and have done fine. Some I have recently repotted into bark mixes. In particular the ones that have done poorly in CHC are species that I would expect to like lower pH mixes.

The mix ratio I use is 2 parts CHC, 1 part perlite, 1 part charcoal, and either 1/4 part of oyster shell or chopped sphagnum depending on which way I want the pH to go.

What are the toxicants in question in the Xavier work?


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## Mahon (Nov 26, 2006)

Not sure of the toxicants, I wish Xavier would post here just this once...oke: 
I am thinking it is the Potasium and Sodium, and they are replaced with Calcium and Magnesium when washed in Magnesium Sulfate then Calcium Nitrate. Magenesium replaces Potasium, the Calcium replaces the Sodium in the CHC...


-Pat


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## Rick (Nov 26, 2006)

This wouldn't be realy new news then. The ion exchange capacity of CHC has been brought up before, and that's what prompted the soaking solutions as you listed. By the way standard fertilizers add a significant amount of potassium (K), and if you use potash or Protekt, you add a bunch more too.


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## lienluu (Nov 26, 2006)

patrix said:


> Mahon you did not read my post, I do not have anything in CHC at this time, which is why I made the post.
> 
> I do not consider you an expert on anything but find you very annoying so please do not respond to any more of my posts ever. Your consistently irritating behavior to the members of this forum have strongly suggested that you have a some sort of emotional maturity problem, your juvenile responses to their posts and questions clearly confirms it.Again please do not respond to any more of my posts as you not credible in any sense of the word. I really wonder if it is worth keep you as a member with all of the CHAOS you create, however it is not my decision.



Patrix,

You can ignore his annoying posts. This is what i've done. Just simply go to his profile and click on the "Add Mahon to Your Ignore List". It will ask you to confirm and once you do so, any and all posts from him will be omitted from what you see.

Of course, if someone quotes him, you will see the quote. But better than nothing.

Here is a link to his profile, towards the center top 1/3 of the page, you should see the Ignore feature:

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/member.php?u=111

Lien


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## gonewild (Nov 26, 2006)

Patrick, 
My statements are not general. They are to the point and I gave examples for each. 

What you posted from Xavier's email does not help at all. If you in fact carefully excluded details you very thoroughly excluded any proof or even a hint at a reason to give creditability to what is written.

You state:
_"Then they can be 'acceptable' for few weeks to few months... second
problem starts, some batches have water-insoluble hormons, I guess it
has something to do with the source of the CHC, or the time of the
year they are harvested... anyway, the plants start roots like crazy,
and many times, the root system will collapse all of a sudden later,
when the hormons stock is exhausted." _


You can't possibly have a potting media that is acceptable for "_a few weeks_"! That is not enough time to determine anything except perhaps his salt levels are through the roof from the concentrate soakings he does.
We need to know the EC of his saturate solution from the CHC. It sounds to me like his growth problem might be from high EC levels caused by excess additives.

Where does he come up with "_some batches have water-insoluble hormons_"? So some coconuts do and some don't? Plant "hormones" don't work that way. Don't forget to read up on plant hormones and report back.

_"the plants start roots like crazy, and many times, the root system will collapse all of a sudden later, when the hormons stock is exhausted_

His roots collapse for some other reason, not _"when the hormons stock is exhausted"_. And he says "_many times_". How many times? 

You'll need to show more than this to prove CHC is toxic. Keep trying.oke: 






Mahon said:


> Lance,
> 
> I believe you have very general statements... there is in fact MUCH research done. I will now post the email I recieved from Xavier Garreau de Loubresse:
> 
> ...


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## Mahon (Nov 26, 2006)

Rick said:


> This wouldn't be realy new news then. The ion exchange capacity of CHC has been brought up before, and that's what prompted the soaking solutions as you listed. By the way standard fertilizers add a significant amount of potassium (K), and if you use potash or Protekt, you add a bunch more too.



Yet again, I wish Xavier would post here about this, as he is the expert on it (I am not)... he came up with the washing of CHC, but for some reason (which I do not know), he stopped using it with his orchids, as it still kills them. 

-Pat

*EDIT: I have contacted Xavier to post here. Hopefully he will.*


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## Heather (Nov 26, 2006)

Clearly, I think we need to hear from the horses mouth, so to speak. 
If Xavier won't post, and he has not published, all we have to go on is our (own) experiences. The longest of which have been about 6 years so far I can tell. 

Has anyone been growing longer than that in a CHC mix? 

Also, how might the CHC issues change with the inclusion of materials such as diatomite, perlite, charcoal, or all three?


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## gonewild (Nov 26, 2006)

This one germinated and grew to this point exactly where you see it, in coconut fiber and in a coconut. 
(No I did not give it hormone therapy). 
I don't know how many years but probably 3 years old.


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## gonewild (Nov 26, 2006)

Here is a link to a company web site with info about CHC (coir). Interesting and very informative. I suspect they have done the research and would disagree with the toxicity theory.

Very informative, but of course they are selling the product.

http://www.basvanbuuren.nl/pages/base.asp?id=74&language=2&site=1

Here is a statement they make:
_"Coir is believed to contain substances that stimulate plant growth, although there is no scientific evidence to substantiate this."_ 

This statement could be where the hormone toxicity idea comes from. If in fact CHC becomes toxic to orchids I doubt this Dutch company would be investing in the product. They specifically explain the ion exchange problem and mention using it as a media for growing orchids.


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## Mahon (Nov 26, 2006)

Lance,

I forgot about this... I once had a nice plant of Brassavola nodosa growing all over a fourth of coconut shell. It was a plant in which I got from Mr. Sanders, which he recieved from Selby Gardens in the early 1970's. The plant was at least 30 years on this nasty looking coconut piece... he showed me a specimen of Phalaenopsis hieroglyphica surrounding half a coconut. I was amazed, except that the mount is quite ugly... so I do know that orchids have grown on coconut shell...

Perhaps Xavier was describing deadly CHC for Paphs. and Phrags., because I now remember all the coconut mounted orchids. There was even Schom. brysiana on one... 

-Pat


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## gonewild (Nov 26, 2006)

Mahon said:


> Lance,
> 
> I forgot about this... I once had a nice plant of Brassavola nodosa growing all over a fourth of coconut shell. It was a plant in which I got from Mr. Sanders, which he recieved from Selby Gardens in the early 1970's. The plant was at least 30 years on this nasty looking coconut piece... he showed me a specimen of Phalaenopsis hieroglyphica surrounding half a coconut. I was amazed, except that the mount is quite ugly... so I do know that orchids have grown on coconut shell...
> 
> ...



Exactly! Keep remembering and thinking.oke: 

I don't think Paphs and Phrags are going to have the toxic problem either. There just is no biological reason for it. 

We can rule out the Phrag part as I have caudatum and pearcei growing in pure CHC for a couple years. 

I think Xavier's problem was related to his growing environment. Do you know if he grew any control plants for his research?


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## Mahon (Nov 26, 2006)

gonewild said:


> Exactly! Keep remembering and thinking.oke:
> 
> I don't think Paphs and Phrags are going to have the toxic problem either. There just is no biological reason for it.
> 
> ...



I don't know... I am still awaiting a reply to yesterday's email to him (I always get the times confused from here and there...). If he can post here, there would be more of a discussion... perhaps there is a third follow-up on the research that I don't know about? But I do think conditions is a major factor for medium... 

-Pat


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## Marco (Nov 26, 2006)

lienluu said:


> Patrix,
> 
> You can ignore his annoying posts. This is what i've done. Just simply go to his profile and click on the "Add Mahon to Your Ignore List". It will ask you to confirm and once you do so, any and all posts from him will be omitted from what you see.
> 
> ...



Thanks Lien. This reply is a godsend.


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## Mahon (Nov 26, 2006)

Marco said:


> Thanks Lien. This reply is a godsend.



You are right Lien! I am tired of recieving garbage and threats from Marco. Thanks! 

-Pat


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## Rick (Nov 26, 2006)

I did find a somewhat unrelated tidbit on Fusarium wilt which tied its control to soil pH (keep between 6 and 7), and using nitrate based fertilizers rather than ammonia based fertilizers.

I also found some product trial comparisons for control of various wilts and rots. The research found "positive effects" by a couple of products, but none of the results were statistically significant from doing nothing or treating with water.:rollhappy: :rollhappy:

This info is tangentially related to the CHC issue since the type and age of the base organic media a person uses in there mix (CHC, bark, or sphagnum) has a big effect on pH at the roots.


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## NYEric (Nov 26, 2006)

OK! I have kept out of this for long enough. I became a strong believer in CHC when I found one of my creeping houseplants had snuck a root into a small pot of it. The roots were so thick that I had a difficult time pulling them out of the pot. I use a mix w/ CHC and other media depanding on how much moisture I want to maintain. I have previously noted to Mr. Mahon that " Information is a powerfull thing, but a little information is a dangerous thing" He chooses to ignore this. I think that the obvious grasping at unsubstantiated work is the sign of a precocious [sic?] youth attempting to justify his position in an adult world. Possibly Mr. Mahon will be proven correct. Hopefully he will not. We can only slap our foreheads in incredualty at the remarks posted and go on with life. After all most people are sheep; I find that those who attempt the preservation and cultivation of orchids to be generally of a higher intellectual capacity. [Generally]


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## kentuckiense (Nov 26, 2006)

Ok guys. Let's try to keep the snide quips directed at Mahon to a minimum. No, I'm not just talking about you Eric, I'm just saying it in general. Let's objectively argue point to point and keep references to age or whatnot out of it. I'm not much older than him and I've never been insulted because of my age.

Anyway, I grow quite a few Parvis and a sanderianum and a roth hybrid in a CHC/charcoal/diatomite/spongeroc mixture. I love the darn stuff. I really like the even moisture retention combined with ample air space. I have nothing but good things to say about the stuff. However, I've only been growing for about six months, so I suppose time will tell.


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## Mahon (Nov 26, 2006)

NYEric said:


> OK! I have kept out of this for long enough. I became a strong believer in CHC when I found one of my creeping houseplants had snuck a root into a small pot of it. The roots were so thick that I had a difficult time pulling them out of the pot. I use a mix w/ CHC and other media depanding on how much moisture I want to maintain. I have previously noted to Mr. Mahon that " Information is a powerfull thing, but a little information is a dangerous thing" He chooses to ignore this. I think that the obvious grasping at unsubstantiated work is the sign of a precocious [sic?] youth attempting to justify his position in an adult world. Possibly Mr. Mahon will be proven correct. Hopefully he will not. We can only slap our foreheads in incredualty at the remarks posted and go on with life. After all most people are sheep; I find that those who attempt the preservation and cultivation of orchids to be generally of a higher intellectual capacity. [Generally]



I find that your post is not only incredibly irrelevant, but it is primitive. You are bothering me. Instead of criticizing me, go out and contribute to orchids. 

Zach, thanks for the suggestion. I think we should try to stick to the topic instead of taking out hatred on one another. 

-Pat


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## NYEric (Nov 27, 2006)

Mr. Mahon, at the time you receive a degree or any kind of accreditation in psychology [which I have] your opinion of the relevance of my post might be considered. If you believe my post is criticizing you, as oposed to the belief I am entitled to, so be it. However I think that many others reading this post might agree with the observation. Now I dont say you should behave according to what the masses tell you, but maybe you should consider and take to heart what people are saying and think how that will affect their response behaviours. And Mr. kentuckiense, I'm not saying anything about age, just about behaviour. Many older people are harder to get along with, and even harder to ignore, than Mr. Mahon.


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## Mahon (Nov 27, 2006)

Eric,

I am not interested in obtaining a degree in psychology, nor interested in that "science"... I am interested in *orchid research and propagation, and taxonomy*. I do not understand why I am trying to be ignored, and I don't care. Those ignorant enough may easily block me. I contribute information here, I am not here to get recognition. There are many that disagree with me, which is perfectly fine. Most of the time, it is productive, yet people, such as yourself, have taken it the wrong way. If anyone has a problem with my posts on CHC should post a complaint, and should also contact the expert in whom I quote.

This thread is upon mixes, why don't we stick to it? Hopefully Xavier will post here about CHC and his research.

-PM


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## Cannonball (Nov 27, 2006)

I am glad those of us who are "ignorant" get to bask in your knowledge Patrick.  

Just remember that you are a teenager. You are not a taxonomist. You are not a research scientist. And you are not contributing to the study of orchids. This is all a delusion.


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## gonewild (Nov 27, 2006)

Rick said:


> I did find a somewhat unrelated tidbit on Fusarium wilt which tied its control to soil pH (keep between 6 and 7), and using nitrate based fertilizers rather than ammonia based fertilizers.
> 
> I also found some product trial comparisons for control of various wilts and rots. The research found "positive effects" by a couple of products, but none of the results were statistically significant from doing nothing or treating with water.:rollhappy: :rollhappy:
> 
> This info is tangentially related to the CHC issue since the type and age of the base organic media a person uses in there mix (CHC, bark, or sphagnum) has a big effect on pH at the roots.


i

I've looked as well and can't find any data that suggests CHC would carry or cause Fusarium Wilt. There was one study that indicated Coir provides a positive environment for Fusarium, but that should not be construed as meaning coir causes Fusarium.

Most of the data in the reports actually show that mixes containing Coir produced better growth than other mix combinations. However the research available is for plants other than orchids, but those plants are possibly much more sensitive to Fusarium than are orchids.


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## Mahon (Nov 27, 2006)

Cannonball said:


> I am glad those of us who are "ignorant" get to bask in your knowledge Patrick.



Yes, but of course



Cannonball said:


> Just remember that you are a teenager. You are not a taxonomist. You are not a research scientist. And you are not contributing to the study of orchids. This is all a delusion.



I have absolutely no idea who you are, but you should probably make sure that you are correct. I am a teenager, and I have a feeling that is why you are trying to bug me. For your info, my taxonomical work is upon _Zygopetalinae_. My studies upon orchids is still developing, and I have succesfully propagated more Florida native orchids than anyone I know. Perhaps you are the delusion, and this is off topic.

-P.A. Mahon


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## Rick (Nov 27, 2006)

gonewild said:


> i
> 
> I've looked as well and can't find any data that suggests CHC would carry or cause Fusarium Wilt. There was one study that indicated Coir provides a positive environment for Fusarium, but that should not be construed as meaning coir causes Fusarium.
> 
> Most of the data in the reports actually show that mixes containing Coir produced better growth than other mix combinations. However the research available is for plants other than orchids, but those plants are possibly much more sensitive to Fusarium than are orchids.



You are right Lance, but I think the reason is more $ related than an actuall susceptability to disease. Bottom line is that good research with controls and a statistically sound data base requires lots of resources (time, space, and energy). At least with food crops there is more financial insentive to find cost effective treatments that really work, and space/material/energy concerns are cheap compared to orchids. Orchid culture research in comparison is based far more on anecdotal acounts than statistical significance. Only a few major growers have enough plants to meet true sample size requirements in a well controled environment, but I doubt that many want to expose a couple hundered of their plants to fusarium spores to see what treatment works best.

Threads like this one are a real rough way to meet sample size, by adding up all the annecdotes, and wading though all the variables until you can make an educated guess about what works or not. But so far its the best way to develop an orchid culture data base that I've come up with.


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## Tony (Dec 17, 2006)

Tony said:


> I use a bark/perlite/charcoal/diatomite mix with a touch of sphagnum. Results have been good so far, but I've only had them for two months at the most. I know Stephen (silence882) uses a CHC mix, and all the plants he has sent me have incredibe roots.




I just finished repotting all my plants into LECA, as the bark has turned to mush already. I'm glad I use clear pots, or I wouldn't have known until it was too late. I caught a few in the early stages of root rot, but they also had new roots growing, so all should be well.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Dec 17, 2006)

Well, since this thread has been revived (can't believe I missed it in the first place), I thought I'd add to it. For starters, I am a big advocate of CHC. That said, it is not always the perfect medium. Medium grade is perfect for Catt's, vandaceous, oncidium...straight, no chaser....they thrive for years, only need repotting when overgrown. Paphs love it (except delanatii), but it MUST be mixed with LOTS of aerating material- spongerock, lava rock, prime agra...diatomite? anything very coarse, and lots of it. And while epiphytic orchids can live in CHC forever, I find that paphs should be repotted within 2 years. Oh...and even when it says "pre-washed", I still soak CHC (1 gal or less CHC to 5 gal water) at least 3 times, using CaNO3 and MgSO4 in the 2nd soak. What doesn't like CHC? Phrags...they will do OK in it, but don't thrive....they definitely prefer bark based mixes. Phals....same deal...will live in it but not thrive (of course, Andy Easton ripped into me on the OD list for saying that phals hate it, but being insulted by Andy is a rite of passage for orchid posters...). As for rock wool, the stuff is disgusting....gets thoroughly slimy with blue green algae, and turns your pot into a fungus gnat breeding factory....Keep in mind, this is for my culture only...indoors, no greenhouse, high quality tap water, MSU fertilizer (with Pro-Tekt added for paphs...prevents pH from getting too acidic...)Take care, Eric


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## NYEric (Dec 17, 2006)

*CHC mix*

Hi Eric thanx for the plants. I finally finished cleaning, cutting and repotting them. Some had issues w/ scale but I think I got most of them. I think my Phrags like a mix w/ CHC [+ PrimeAgra, horticultural charcoal, and very little bark]. I dont like bark because it breaks down so quickly. Growing Phrags in trays w/ circulating R.O. water.


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## Brabantia (Nov 8, 2007)

One year later, is it news about this subject? It is very interesting because we have a similar discution on a french forum. Is it new opinions on the use of CHC for paphs? Can we use CHC for Paph rothschildianum and sanderianum? Can CHC induce deprives in iron? Many thanks in advance for your news comments on this extreme subject.


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## Marco (Nov 8, 2007)

Hi brabantia. Welcome to the forum. Sorry but I cant be much of any help but I'm sure some other folks here will chime in.


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