# EYOF plants, flashback



## Roth (May 24, 2011)

I have seen many plants supposedly coming from the Eric Young, some with the 4n tag, some with prestigious awards.

To keep the records:

- Don Wimber did not like to count chromosomes. So he did only and exclusively with high quality plants that would be used for breeding, or shown for awards. All the plants apart from those specific ones are though to be maybe 4n, maybe not. This includes all the plants for sale, excluding the divisions of awarded plants of course. The progeny from two tetraploid parents is of course all tetraploid, that's why the Jason Fischer, etc... from the Eric Young do not even need to be counted if both parents were counted tetraploids.

- One thing to remember, besseae, dalessandroi, and the mysterious 'besseae peru' have been bred together. Phrag. Jersey, besseae x dalessandroi, is usually sterile at the 2n level, but not at the 4n level. Hence, even if you have a 4n besseae, it could be as well as 4n Jersey. In those days, all those plants were named besseae. 

- The first complete range of proven, counted tetraploids besseae and tetraploid hybrids has been exhibited in Glasgow for the WOC. All had exceedingly wide leaves, all had some teeth on their leaf sides, and all had teeth on their petals. The awarded ones usually had less frequently teeth, but they still did. Many years later, they still do. All of those plants, I have not seen them for many years, maybe they are dead.

- The staff at the Eric Young Foundation was highly skilled, respectable and respected, from Alan Moon to Martin Ahring.

- There were tetraploid, counted rothschildianum. Alan Moon showed me a photo, and I have seen myself plants in bloom of it. Trinity AM/RHS is actually a 4n rothschildianum, counted by Don Wimber. All of those are apparently dead long time ago. I am sure it is possible to ask now the EYOF for photos of those, and photos of the selected/awarded plants of everything.

- As per Eric Young request himself, the surplus plants could be disposed of through UK agents exclusively. It included McBean, Burnham, Ratcliffe, and... Mike Tibbs. The latter would get a worldwide fame by selling fake rothschildianum album, with a photoshopped photo ( still available on Tanaka website). He made a fortune with Japanese customers.

Unfortunately, Mike had some deals with some Dutches nursery, and he would grow the 'surplus disposable' plants in those places. They were all screened. Unfortunately too, he had excellent reputation, big mouth, and was very flamboyant. He had no trouble to get customers for 'selected' and 'awarded' EYOF plants in the USA and Japan.

As a result, some poorer grade Mt Millais selfing thrown away by the EYOF would end up as 'Mt Millais' FCC/RHS. That's why the one from TON, that they got in 1989 prior to that mess, is priceless, because that's a real one. For the others, I would be careful, no matter the owner. Mike Tibbs too, to explain that some divisions made consistantly poor flowers, said that the plants must be perfectly grown to get good flowers. It is not true... There is as well a small selfing of Mt Millais in Japan that is passed on as a 'division'. The plant is half size, the flowers never exceed 23-24cm, but the color is correct. That's why many people said that Mt Millais is 'compact'. It is not.

The same happened with phrags, but it was worse. EYOF was so overwhelmed with seedlings from all their crosses that they asked Mike to get batches grown in Netherlands for the trade. Some were very good, and again sold as 'divisions'.

Since those bleak days, everything sold recently by EYOF as divisions is for sure the real deal. But from 90-99, nothing is less sure.

The example:







Mt Millais at the WOC Glasgow, real.






Mt Millais division from 1989. Those who have the RHS CD, there are paintings when it got its AM, then FCC. All those are perfectly identical. Different times, different condition, but the flower is consistant.

Now...

An US Mt Millais division, picture came from a website years ago, I will not disclose which one. It is very obvious that this Mt Millais is not a real division.






This is why one must be very careful with supposed divisions from the EYOF from 1990-1999. Some phrag FCC's are not the real deal even...


----------



## SlipperKing (May 24, 2011)

Whoo, Nice heads up story! Nice Photo of the "real deal" too. Thanks


----------



## Shiva (May 24, 2011)

I would then surmise that many roth x roth 'Mont Millais' crosses are not what they should be and so would it be with roth 'Mont Millais' hybrids. Very murky stuff.


----------



## Heather (May 24, 2011)

Wow, that is a great story. Thank you for posting it here. Crazy stuff!


----------



## Braem (May 24, 2011)

You may surmise that MANY crosses of orchids and especialy Paphs are not what they are said to be.


----------



## e-spice (May 24, 2011)

Great info. Thanks.


----------



## NYEric (May 24, 2011)

ARGH! Thanks for this great info. I wish Ratcliffe made it easier to get EYOF plants!


----------



## Justin (May 24, 2011)

Fascinating. Thanks for the history.


----------



## W. Beetus (May 24, 2011)

The real deal is stunning!!


----------



## Roth (May 24, 2011)

NYEric said:


> ARGH! Thanks for this great info. I wish Ratcliffe made it easier to get EYOF plants!



The story is way more complicated. Eyof at a point tried to force the resellers to get a minimal amount of screened plants monthly ( with EYOF choosing the varieties) to be allowed to trade selected plants or divisions. In this minimal amount of plants, many would be nearly impossible to sell and it was not worth for many growers to take some many unsaleable plants to be allowed to trade here and there divisions. The second thing, EYOF is not a commercial nursery, so when they feel the need, they release something, when they don't, they don't...


----------



## Roth (May 24, 2011)

Shiva said:


> I would then surmise that many roth x roth 'Mont Millais' crosses are not what they should be and so would it be with roth 'Mont Millais' hybrids. Very murky stuff.



I don't want to comment further, because I respect some growers, and they believe firmly they have or had Mt Millais. However, it is possible that some roths *** x Mt Millais were not roths *** x Mt Millais... This would explain too why the Val x Mt Millais are way darker, but I don't know, and I don't want to spread any misinformation. Let's say that it is a quite likely option, and I have seen some plants supposedly made with Mt Millais that looked like the last picture, not like the real Mt Millais. We could even think that Mt Millais never got a FCC/AOS too...


----------



## NYEric (May 25, 2011)

Roth said:


> In this minimal amount of plants, many would be nearly impossible to sell and it was not worth for many growers to take some many unsaleable plants to be allowed to trade here and there divisions. ...


I would think the large US market could have absorbed the releases. ?


----------



## Roth (May 25, 2011)

NYEric said:


> I would think the large US market could have absorbed the releases. ?



No, because for the runts the price is way too high. EYOF plants, for the non selected ones, are way too overpriced. The phrags Carol Kanzer runts about 10 years ago were in the 35pounds, and even now the complex paphs releases for the runts for 75-200+USD, wholesale price. When I knew more about those deals, the dealers needed to take ALL that was offered, no exception. They could not choose what they were buying, and the rules were very strict about that.

http://ratcliffeorchids.co.uk/Documents/EYOF_Paphs_April_2011.doc

If you look, and you know that Ratcliffe is reasonable for the prices, this gives you an idea of the type of screened stuff sold by the EYOF. At those prices, it is very, very difficult to sell to be kind.


----------



## Braem (May 25, 2011)

Roth said:


> I don't want to comment further, because I respect some growers, and they believe firmly they have or had Mt Millais. However, it is possible that some roths *** x Mt Millais were not roths *** x Mt Millais... This would explain too why the Val x Mt Millais are way darker, but I don't know, and I don't want to spread any misinformation. Let's say that it is a quite likely option, and I have seen some plants supposedly made with Mt Millais that looked like the last picture, not like the real Mt Millais. We could even think that Mt Millais never got a FCC/AOS too...


The fact that any of plants are "darker" (I assume you are talking about the flower colour) does not prove or disprove anything.


----------



## NYEric (May 25, 2011)

Roth said:


> the dealers needed to take ALL that was offered, no exception. They could not choose what they were buying, and the rules were very strict about that.
> 
> http://ratcliffeorchids.co.uk/Documents/EYOF_Paphs_April_2011.doc
> 
> If you look, and you know that Ratcliffe is reasonable for the prices, this gives you an idea of the type of screened stuff sold by the EYOF. At those prices, it is very, very difficult to sell to be kind.



Ohhh!  I see, kind of screwed up unless you're using some for a big breeding program. I should contact everyone I know to buy up what EYOF phrags I can.


----------



## monocotman (May 26, 2011)

Thanks for all this news on Mont Millais-very interesting.
The only WOC I have attended was Glasgow '93 where this plant was grand champion. The flower spike was truly astounding.
I have the plant of Don Wimber 'Remembrance' on order as we speak from the Ratcliffes phrag list.
Plants that I have bought from these lists in the past have been good, if a bit expensive,

Regards,

David


----------



## JeanLux (May 26, 2011)

Roth said:


> .....
> 
> As a result, some poorer grade Mt Millais selfing thrown away by the EYOF would end up as 'Mt Millais' FCC/RHS. That's why the one* from TON*, that they got in 1989 prior to that mess, is priceless, because that's a real one. For the others, I would be careful, no matter the owner. Mike Tibbs too, to explain that some divisions made consistantly poor flowers, said that the plants must be perfectly grown to get good flowers. It is not true... There is as well a small selfing of Mt Millais in Japan that is passed on as a 'division'. The plant is half size, the flowers never exceed 23-24cm, but the color is correct. That's why many people said that Mt Millais is 'compact'. It is not.
> 
> ...



Please clarify, a german nursery or somebody compl. different?? .. Jean


----------



## Fabrice (May 26, 2011)

TON = Tokyo Orchid Nursery.


----------



## JeanLux (May 26, 2011)

Fabrice said:


> TON = Tokyo Orchid Nursery.



ah, ok! thanks!!! Jean


----------

