# kovachii x Living Fire



## littlefrog (Oct 18, 2007)

Well... It is big! I didn't measure it, but maybe 6" natural spread. The color isn't really accurate. It is more purple than the camera wants to recognize, a very odd color. So that is what it has going for it, but the form isn't all that good. Glen Decker says he hasn't registered it yet, but will soon.


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## Hien (Oct 18, 2007)

littlefrog said:


> Well... It is big! I didn't measure it, but maybe 6" natural spread. The color isn't really accurate. It is more purple than the camera wants to recognize, a very odd color. So that is what it has going for it, but the form isn't all that good. Glen Decker says he hasn't registered it yet, but will soon.



Very nice, how come you don't register it, if you flower it?
as long as you credit the originator hybridizer


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## littlefrog (Oct 18, 2007)

Actually Glen flowered it first, as far as I know. Regardless, it is the hybridizer's right to name it. They can allow you to name the cross if they wish, but you may not name a cross without the hybridizer's permission (even if you credit them) if you have any reasonable way of determining who the hybridizer is.

Besides, I would just name it something stupid.


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## Candace (Oct 18, 2007)

Hien, the person who made the cross is given first shot at naming it. Since Glen is the breeder he can register it and pay the fee. Many hybridizers only choose to name their better crosses due to the registration costs involved and will let someone else go through the process. But, permission is needed from the hybridizer.


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## goldenrose (Oct 18, 2007)

Any idea what might be improved upon with next blooming? Wider, flatter petals? or is that asking too much? I have one so will be interesting to see how it turns out. 
What would happen with the color if it were on a white or blue background?


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## littlefrog (Oct 18, 2007)

goldenrose said:


> Any idea what might be improved upon with next blooming? Wider, flatter petals? or is that asking too much? I have one so will be interesting to see how it turns out.
> What would happen with the color if it were on a white or blue background?



I was hoping the petals would grow a bit as the flower matured. This has been true to some extent. I think perfectly flat petals is pushing it for this cross, but it would be nice. The plant is quite big now, so I don't know how much of an improvement I'll get on the next blooming. But I have more buds on the spike, color might improve as the weather gets cooler. Fair warning, this thing stayed in bud for well over a month before it finally opened. Way too long when you are anxious.

I should probably play with backgrounds. Good idea.


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## goldenrose (Oct 18, 2007)

Just was wondering. This is the gamble we take! We know just by the law of averages- 1/3 should be like kovachii, 1/3 like Living Fire & 1/3 down the middle of the two! Which third do we want? and which third do we end up with?! I think this one is the middle - color & size of kovachii, form of Living Fire. The other way to look at it is, could it be worse? Certainly!


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## toddybear (Oct 18, 2007)

I almost has this one but at the last minute, changed it for PK X Walter Schomburg...now I'm glad I did. I agree that the form leaves a bit to be desired.


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## NYEric (Oct 18, 2007)

It's OK. I'm sorry you can't post the color better but I think it has something to do w/ the 'hairs' being pigmented more than the cells underneath. When I get the album Sarah Eadie I'll either send the bloom or some pollen. E.


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## goldenrose (Oct 18, 2007)

toddybear said:


> I almost has this one but at the last minute, changed it for PK X Walter Schomburg...now I'm glad I did. I agree that the form leaves a bit to be desired.



oke:and are we certain that the schomburg X will be better?


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## Magicboy (Oct 18, 2007)

I can't understand you! I think thios i a very beautiful form and a lovely colour. What is it about the form that you don't like?


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## toddybear (Oct 18, 2007)

goldenrose said:


> oke:and are we certain that the schomburg X will be better?



Hope springs eternal!


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## Mrs. Paph (Oct 18, 2007)

Yeah, I really like the graceful waves of the petals, it would be a shame to have them just flat.


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## Ron-NY (Oct 18, 2007)

It has been a very variable cross. Some of the flowers have been stunning some not as stunning. Most have been pink but a few have been red. I like the frill to the edges on some from this cross. The proportion of yours is a bit iffy but may be better on the next blooming.

Why do people like flat...we are not dealing with Catts here but Phrags. 

The three partners in this adventure have agreed to alternate the naming of these hybrids. Glen has named 2 of them, Alfredo one and Fritz one. I believe it is Fritz's turn to name this one but has not offered a name as of yet.

The Walter Schombergs have been fairly consistent in color and shape.


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## SlipperFan (Oct 18, 2007)

Are there more buds, Rob? It will be interesting to see if subsequent flowers look the same.


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## isaias m rolando (Oct 19, 2007)

You Are Right Ron
Hybridizer Are Glen Decker, Fritz Schomburg And Alfredo Manrique. I Remember Glen Did This Particular Cross At Alfredo's Pk And Phrag Collection, End Of Year 2003 Or 04.
To My Taste I Also Prefer Pk X Walter Schomburg ( Phrag Alfredo Manrique) And Haley Decker. But Judges Have Already Awarded Phrag Suzanne Decker With An Am At Redlands Past May.
I Think Glen Is Writing An Article To Appear In Orchids-aos Magazine Soon.


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## littlefrog (Oct 19, 2007)

At least one more bud. So we will see. Actually looking at it again last night (I took the picture Saturday), the form has improved a bit. I don't mind the wavy petals, what I objected to was that they face up instead of forward. And the dorsal is pinched and reflexed at the base. I'm happy with it though, and it is certainly a step in a different direction than just another besseae hybrid (as much as I love besseae hybrids...).


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## isaias m rolando (Oct 19, 2007)

congratulations littlefrog
and thank you so much for the excellent picture and with no doubt excellent culture conditions.
you are so wright....this is just another direction in phragmipedium hybridization.


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## NYEric (Oct 19, 2007)

littlefrog said:


> .. and it is certainly a step in a different direction than just another besseae hybrid (as much as I love besseae hybrids...).


:fight:
Whoo! caught yourself there...


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## goldenrose (Oct 19, 2007)

littlefrog said:


> At least one more bud. So we will see. Actually looking at it again last night (I took the picture Saturday), the form has improved a bit. I don't mind the wavy petals, what I objected to was that they face up instead of forward. And the dorsal is pinched and reflexed at the base. I'm happy with it though, and it is certainly a step in a different direction than just another besseae hybrid (as much as I love besseae hybrids...).



This is a necessary step towards the next generation of kovachii hybrids. I'm sure there were plenty of bess x's that weren't what was expected. Look at all of them now & they're still improving on them!


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## Leo Schordje (Oct 19, 2007)

from what I know; the original batch of Walter Schomburgs was (Eric Young 'Mount Milais' a proven 4N x Andean Fire 'Michelle Lee' also a proven 4N). The Eic Young was karyotyped 4N, the Andean Fire was tested by a guard cell measurement method. This means generally all the Walter Schomburg seedlings should have been 4N (skip the exceptions). One would expect the kovachii hybrid (kovachii x Water Schomburg 4N) to be 3N, with the extra set chromosomes coming from the Walter Schomburg. Think flat as a board. Or at least one can hope. So yes, a lot of us hope this cross will be better than the Living Fire cross. But until you bloom the ones you actually have, don't know for sure. Its like playing the Lottery. "Do you feel Lucky?"
Leo


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## smartie2000 (Oct 20, 2007)

I thought I would mention that I believe the Living Fire used was 4N


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## tan (Oct 20, 2007)

*giant beauty* !!!
wonder where to purchase a _compot?_


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## littlefrog (Oct 22, 2007)

Update: This plant was awarded this weekend (an AM of 80 points). So now I need to get a name for it.

The color (and size) trumped the form. Our resident 'pink-o-phile' scored it a bit too high, I think. oke: (sandy, you still reading this forum?). The form actually is pretty good, the petals are wavy but perfectly symmetrical as of judging. The dorsal is what kept the score down.


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## goldenrose (Oct 22, 2007)

littlefrog said:


> Update: This plant was awarded this weekend (an AM of 80 points). So now I need to get a name for it.
> 
> The color (and size) trumped the form. Our resident 'pink-o-phile' scored it a bit too high, I think. oke: (sandy, you still reading this forum?). The form actually is pretty good, the petals are wavy but perfectly symmetrical as of judging. The dorsal is what kept the score down.



:clap::clap::clap: CONGRATULATIONS!!!! What a trip! Look how critical we can be! 
Should the dorsal have been a bit bigger? flatter?


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## littlefrog (Oct 22, 2007)

goldenrose said:


> :clap::clap::clap: CONGRATULATIONS!!!! What a trip! Look how critical we can be!
> Should the dorsal have been a bit bigger? flatter?



Yes... Actually it is that rolling back at the base that gets me.


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## e-spice (Oct 22, 2007)

Congratulations Rob! I think the flower is very interesting and sounds like it is huge but I'm really surprised about the award due to the form.

e-spice


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## NYEric (Oct 22, 2007)

The form is the same as the only other one that I've seen.


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## goldenrose (Oct 22, 2007)

and that's what they compare it to - right? They have to start somewhere & as Rob pointed out form is not the only part of the judging criteria. The flower is symmetrical, you may not like the wavy petals but apparently it didn't bother some. Remember when Rob first posted he indicated that the color that we see was not the actual color. If presented to a different panel, how would it fare? Would it still have enough points for a AM?


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## slippertalker (Oct 22, 2007)

One thing we have to be careful with these hybrids is getting over the novelty of the large size and pink shades. Judges should use some caution until a fair population of these crosses have been seen. That being said, congratulations on the award, it appears that size and color carried the day!


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## isaias m rolando (Oct 22, 2007)

Congratulations Rob! thank you again for sharing your excelent picture.
Definetively there is a long, long way and this is just the start.
But judges will have to redefine what they spect for these hybrids. To think they have awarded with 96, and 97 point ( FCCs) to some excelent clones of Phrag Jason Fisher. Now, when these PK hybrids get adult size will show all their potential.... it must be very hard to be a judge in this position....


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## slippertalker (Oct 22, 2007)

As a judge, it is very difficult not to get caught up in the latest craze. This has happened in the past with various genera and is continued here. Consider the awards to vinicolor paphs over time, Paph armeniacum/micranthum, Phrag besseae to see the trend. Whenever there is exciting new breeding material, the judges get as excited as the general public and need to be a bit cautious so the bar isn't incorrectly set. Of course, the level could be as easily set high as low, but that isn't normally the case with new lines of breeding.


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## NYEric (Oct 22, 2007)

I don't think 80 points is high. But again it's new so the judges had to start somewhere. There are now 8 Pk crosses registered but I've only seen 3 or 4, who/when will the rest be seen? [Not to mention judged]


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## Kyle (Oct 22, 2007)

I've seen photos of some of the rest of them and they are very interesting, the different species are having an effect of the color. Remember, all the pictures we've seen to date have besseae in the back ground. The other hybrids have non micropetulm species in the background.

The pictures arn't mine, and I don't have permission to share them.

Kyle


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## NYEric (Oct 22, 2007)

Non-besseae, what for?


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## DukeBoxer (Oct 22, 2007)

Kyle, you could maybe post a link to the pictures, that isn't wrong!?!


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## kentuckiense (Oct 22, 2007)

DukeBoxer said:


> Kyle, you could maybe post a link to the pictures, that isn't wrong!?!



That assumes that they are online already, which I doubt they are.


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## Kyle (Oct 22, 2007)

No link, they were sent to me in an email.

Kyle


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## Jorch (Oct 22, 2007)

wow, would be interesting to see a PK crossed with a non-bessae species/hybrid! Kyle, would it be possible to at least let us know the parents of the other 3-4 hybrids? oke::wink:


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## NYEric (Oct 23, 2007)

http://www.phragweb.info/phragmipedium/species/display_species_phrag.asp?phrag_id=160


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## isaias m rolando (Oct 23, 2007)

Jorch: 
just to inform you that those PK hybrids with no besseae or schlimii gene pool are very slow growers. So we will have to wait to see them.

Eric: 
appaerently Glen has not registered yet this particular Living Fire X PK. Probably he is in the process of doing it, if not already done.


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## e-spice (Oct 23, 2007)

slippertalker said:


> One thing we have to be careful with these hybrids is getting over the novelty of the large size and pink shades. Judges should use some caution until a fair population of these crosses have been seen. That being said, congratulations on the award, it appears that size and color carried the day!



I definitely agree with that.

e-spice


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## Jorch (Oct 23, 2007)

NYEric said:


> http://www.phragweb.info/phragmipedium/species/display_species_phrag.asp?phrag_id=160



Thanks Eric!


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## Heather (Oct 26, 2007)

slippertalker said:


> As a judge, it is very difficult not to get caught up in the latest craze.




I was on the Paph ribbon judging team at the Mass. show today (NOT AOS JUDGING) and we had a HARD time with Glen's kov. hybrids because a) they're first bloom seedlings b) the form's not great c) the colors are not great on some and d) they're extremely variable! 

I finally said what Slippertalker said - maybe we need to step back and wait and see and not award too many kov. crosses too fast. It may very well be TOO EARLY TO TELL. 

They listened to me, and we didn't ribbon a few that were contenders - they were too variable. 

Glen's a friend and I felt kind of bad but you need to have some objectivity, and there was nothing else to compare them with and I, now that I've seen them in person, I really think we're too early in this game to make too many lasting decisions.

Don't get me wrong here - I'd be happy owning a few of them, and personally, I like the curlier petals but I think next year or a few generations from now we're going to have a whole different ballgame on our hands. 

Look at the roth. breeding being done now...


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## goldenrose (Oct 26, 2007)

I would think if the forms not great nor is the color, that would have made things a bit easier!


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## NYEric (Oct 28, 2007)

Hmmmm..some interesting comments but If a bloom is submitted for ribbon judging and it has large size, color and form isn't it due an award. "..oh, well in comparison to the one we saw, it's not awardable.." doesn't work in that case. IMO


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