# I'm confused...can you help?



## BotanicaLtd (Jan 10, 2007)

I am hoping for clarification...I'm confused with the taxonomy of a couple of Phrag. hybrids. The hybrid I'm trying to understand is Inca Fire. My photos of its blossoms and my photos of my Mem. Dick Clements look almost identical. I went to PhragWeb for answers...and found:

Mem. Dick Clements = sargentianum x besseae. And now sargentianum is classified as lindleyanum var. sargentianum. 

Inca Fire = Andean Fire x besseae, and Andean Fire = lindleyanum x besseae

Does that mean that Andean Fire and Mem. Dick Clements are the same? Or are they different based on the variety of lindleyanum used? Because then I got thinking about my Jason Fischer (which looks very different than those above) yet it is Mem. Dick Clements x besseae.

I purchased a dozen phrags. from a supposedly reputable national grower a few years back. At least two were mislabelled and he replaced them...one more bloomed and is obviously not what it was labelled. One of my Mem. Dick Clements and my only Inca Fire also came in that batch. How in the world can I determine (or can I) if I have more mislabelled plants or if Inca Fire and Mem. Dick Clements really do look almost identical??

HEEELLLLPPP!!!


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## NYEric (Jan 10, 2007)

Yep!


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## slippertalker (Jan 10, 2007)

The reclassification of related species is causing a LOT of confusion. This group of species which includes kaieteurum, lindleyanum and sargentianum is now lumped under lindleyanum. How the RHS handles this for registrations is the big question......This would mean that Andean Fire=Mem.Dick Clements. My experience is that the two hybrids appear a bit different, but it's a matter of degree. It would also follow that Inca Fire=Jason Fischer. They are very similar, but Jason Fischer is a superior cross.

The bottom line is that the registration system cannot easily adapt to constant taxonomic changes. By the way, don't change your tags because someone will come along and split these species/varieties again.


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## NYEric (Jan 10, 2007)

OK. I also checked Phragweb to confirm my beliefs, and though this is no guarantee I believe it's the truth. As you thought the difference between Andean Fire and Mem. Dick Clemens is based on the variety of Phrag. linleyanum used. The lindleyanum v. sargentianum comes from a different location than lindleyanum and also grows taller. In my memory I remember Mem. Dick Clemens being bigger than Andean Fire when mature. Also the flower color of the Mem. Dick Clemens seem a bit deeper red. The addition of the bessea to make the Inca Fire may add to the color. Although I cannot look up the flower counts, I don't have a registry file program, I think Mem. Dick Clemens may hold more blooms than Andean Fire. If you have a question about your plants you should post them here and let some of the people [not me] try to ID them better for you.


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## Leo Schordje (Jan 10, 2007)

I am th knuckle-head who registered Inca Embers and Inca Fire, and YES, Inca Fire is nearly impossible to distinguish from Jason Fisher. And Inca Embers is indistinguishable from Noirmont. They are parallel crosses. Phrag lindleyanum was described from plants collected in Venezuela, Phrag sargentianum was described from plants originating in Brazil. When placed side by side there are minor differences between the two species, but I am not certain the differences are enough to separate the two geographic races into two species. That is for the taxonomic authorities to decide. The latest is that they are one species, lindleyanum being the older name, thus priority. 
I have seen plants from many different grexes of all four crosses (remakes using different parents) and I can say that one is not superior to the other. The difference comes from the individual clones used. When a 4N Dick Clements or a 4N Andean Fire is used instead of a 2N the progeny are MUCH fuller and better colored. The besseae used also makes a big difference. Since sargentianum and lindleyanum are only grandparents, not direct parents, it really does not seem to make much difference which species you started with. Both sargentianum & lindleyanum contribute better growth habit, intensify purple & reds, and give higher flower counts, improved flower size and branching inflorescence. The superiority (or inferiority) of a grex is due to the immediate parents used. Not so much to the details of the species. Most clones of Andean Fire in cultivation are 2N except one clone, Andean Fire 'Michelle Lee' AM/AOS which is a 'proven' 4N, by guard cell measurements and a very succesful track record as a breeding plant. There are several high quality tetraploid Mem Dick Clemments out there. So good Dick Clemments crosses are more common. But, if you can find the seedlings, progeny from Andean Fire 'Michelle Lee' 4N are very good. (for those curious, Michelle Lee just turned 21 and her godfather is quite proud of her). 
Yours 
Leo


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## Heather (Jan 10, 2007)

Leo Schordje said:


> I am th knuckle-head who registered Inca Embers and Inca Fire...



Ooh good, I was hoping you'd share some insight! Thanks Leo.


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## NYEric (Jan 11, 2007)

Only on *this* website folks!


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## BotanicaLtd (Jan 11, 2007)

*images to demonstrate our confusion!*

THANKS so much for the clarification. I guess I should have posted pictures of the plants in question at the beginning...I'm new at this (I hope the pictures come through!).

The information about the parent plants helps in my understanding. It also answers some questions I've had about our children...oke:


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## BotanicaLtd (Jan 11, 2007)

*Better (?) images to demonstrate our confusion!*

Since it will help to see them next to one another,
Here's our Inca Fire






and our Mem. Dick Clements


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## Leo Schordje (Jan 11, 2007)

WOW, they do look similar. Frankly, the Inca Fire (Andean Fire x besseae) does not show as muchof the second dose of besseae that it should show. I would have expected it to look a bit more like a Jason Fisher. One wonders if at some point between seed pod, flask, compot, to blooming size that a tag might have gotten mixed up. But, never the less, you have good color, good size. I would certainly keep watering both of those flowers. 
Thank you for sharing, it is clear why you have a question. 
Leo


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