# Paph. lowii -Horizontal Form-



## Drorchid (Nov 5, 2008)

We have had a plant of Paph. lowii here in the greenhouse that has always been a little different compared to the regular Paph. lowii. This plant originated from Kalimantan (Borneo). The differences are:

The flower looks different, the petals stand out more horizontal, the petals don't twist as much, and the dorsal sepal is green. The regular lowii usually has some brown to purple pigments in the lower half of the dorsal sepal, especially along the veins.

The plant itself is more compact compared to a regular lowii.

The bloom season is different, it usually blooms 6 months later compared to the regular lowii. Our regular lowii's usually bloom around February or so. This form usually blooms around August.

Here are some pictures of the flowers and the plant:

















Here is a flower of a regular Paph. lowii:






Jerry has made one cross with it, and crossed it with Paph rothschildianum. the resulting cross looks very different compared to Paph. Julius (roth x lowii).

Here is a regular Paph. Julius:






This is a cross of Paph. lowii 'Horizontal' x rothschildianum:











So, Olaf and Lance and any taxonomists out there, do you think this form falls within the natural variation of the species Paph. lowii, or are we dealing with a different variety of Paph. lowii, or would you even consider it to be a different species? A few years later we did receive a second plant that was very similar to this form, so right now we have 2 plants of this type.

Robert


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## Heather (Nov 5, 2008)

Interesting...I'm looking forward to this conversation!


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## Kyle (Nov 5, 2008)

Also, I recieved an album lowii from Sam Tsui that has a different growth habit then other lowii I've seen. The leaves have a verticle growth habit. Like a V. What is the history of this plant? The only picture I could find of the flower on the fox valley site shows a flower different then either lowii shown above.

Kyle


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## NYEric (Nov 5, 2008)

Phrag besseae! :crazy:


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## JeanLux (Nov 5, 2008)

OMG, I can't help for this discussion, just have a normal lowii, but always admire the lots of pretty plants with beautiful blooms, you have!!!! Jean


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## labskaus (Nov 5, 2008)

I'd like to learn more about the variation in lowii. Is it related to Geography, like different island = different different colour form? Is it possible to identify the origin of a lowii by looking at its petal stance or spot pattern? Or do these different types occur randomly throughout the area?

Robert, Fabrice and myself posted pics of lowii "Doll" x self recently, which share some features with your plant.

Very interesting, these two Julius. I assume these look typical for each cross?

Best wishes, Carsten


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## nikv (Nov 5, 2008)

Robert,

Will you have any of the seedlings from this cross for sale any time soon? 

Best Regards,
Nik


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## Drorchid (Nov 5, 2008)

nikv said:


> Robert,
> 
> Will you have any of the seedlings from this cross for sale any time soon?
> 
> ...




Yes, a few years ago I selfed this plant. They have been out of the lab for almost 4 years now, so I think they will be blooming by next year or the year after.

http://www.orchidweb.com/detail.aspx?ID=1383

Robert


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## slippertalker (Nov 5, 2008)

Paph lowii has the largest geographical distribution of all of the multifloral paph species, hence the variation is considerable. Both of these examples are well within the concept of lowii. This species is quite variable in size, shape and color.....Also, they grow in different ecosystems that differ in elevation and some isolation. Many are epiphytes, typically growing in trees.


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## SlipperKing (Nov 5, 2008)

Most interesting Robert. As you probably know, there are a lot of lowii's out on the market bred from the clone 'Princehouse' These plants also display a more horizonal petal stance. I wonder if your particular type of lowii has anything to do with it. It would be interesting to know the history behind 'Princehouse' (I beleive this is the correct clonal name)


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## Drorchid (Nov 5, 2008)

SlipperKing said:


> Most interesting Robert. As you probably know, there are a lot of lowii's out on the market bred from the clone 'Princehouse' These plants also display a more horizonal petal stance. I wonder if your particular type of lowii has anything to do with it. It would be interesting to know the history behind 'Princehouse' (I beleive this is the correct clonal name)



Is this the clone you are referring to?

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3003

To me that looks more like a regular lowii. I am not familiar with the 'Princehouse' clone. Our "horizontal" form has more horizontal petals, and a more green colored dorsal. So far I know our 'Horizontal' clone is a jungle collected plant, that originated from Kalimantan, but I will have to ask Jerry to confirm that. 

Robert


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## SlipperKing (Nov 5, 2008)

Drorchid said:


> Is this the clone you are referring to?
> 
> http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3003
> 
> ...


Robert, I personally have not seen a princehouse clone until now. What I do have is a horizonal lowii (not as much as yours) where Princehouse is one of the parents. Obviously, I should be more inrterested in tracking down the other parent! Even the awarded lowii of Frank Smith's has horizonal petals. Again, not to the extreme as the OL plant.
I just think it would be a real shame and nightmare if some taxo decides this plant is a valid species in the lowii complex and that wasn't pick up soon enought before breeding with the "normal" lowiis. Creating "intermedate complex" nightmare.
As one forum member has already pointed out, lowii has one of the largest habits and wide variation is expected. Still, if the OL plant is only a varity, keeping it a pure varity would be nice!


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## ORG (Nov 5, 2008)

Dear Robert,
in the last time some plants came from Sulawesi which looks similar to your plant. But it is really difficult with the Paph. lowii, there is a big variability in this species.
Also when this clone is really beautiful, it would be the best way, to use only a clonal name but not to describe a special forma or variety.

Best greetings

Olaf


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## Rick (Nov 5, 2008)

SlipperKing said:


> Most interesting Robert. As you probably know, there are a lot of lowii's out on the market bred from the clone 'Princehouse' These plants also display a more horizonal petal stance. I wonder if your particular type of lowii has anything to do with it. It would be interesting to know the history behind 'Princehouse' (I beleive this is the correct clonal name)



It's been a while since I saw one, but I think the Super Fly clone has fairly straight out petals too.

About one of 10 flowers on my lowii the petals will be straight (still slightly drooping though). I think the trait may be common but recessive in the species with different clones expressing it strongly.


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## SlipperFan (Nov 5, 2008)

Interesting discussion. I've never seen a lowii with such a horizontal stance.

I love your Julius, Robert. It is truly gorgeous.


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## goldenrose (Nov 6, 2008)

Lance mentioned it in the lynniae thread, if you have his book, there is a pic that is very similar to this.
Using this type for Julius changes everything, I'm not sure for the better.


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## Scott Ware (Nov 6, 2008)

This looks just like some plants I got from Ray Rands several years ago. At the time he was referring to them as "White dorsal from Borneo". _(I think I can hear Olaf chuckling.)_ Well, they sure as heck don't have white dorsals - they're clear green with a lighter edge at the top - and the form and color are nearly identical to the flower in Robert's photo.


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## Fabrice (Nov 6, 2008)

Nice flower; I bought your lowii "horizontal"X self this year; It's a slow grower but it grows!

Look at my lowii currently in bloom. The right flower is similar to your "horizontal".
And for the left flower, the seller tells me it's from the same seedling; So, it's a sister plant but very different!
As soon as I can, I will search more informations.


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## SlipperKing (Nov 6, 2008)

Now that is interesting Fabrice. The one pictured on the left reminds me a little of richardianum


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## Drorchid (Nov 6, 2008)

Okay, here is my take on things, I have to agree with slippertalker and Olaf. Paph. lowii grows in such a wide area and wide range of habitats you will see a lot of variation within this species. Some populations may get isolated from other populations and due to different selection pressures different morphological characteristics will pop up. Some populations will even have so many characteristics that are different compared to the "regular" or "wild" type, that they are on the verge of becoming separate species.

Examples of those, which would fall under the lowii complex are Paph. richardianum and Paph. lynniae, obviusly they are very closely related to Paph. lowii, but as they have probably been isolated from the rest of the lowii gene pool for many generations they are becoming separate species.

Now it is in the eye of the beholder to give them the "species" name, or a "variety" name. Some taxonomist would lump them together with lowii, while others would call them different species. The lowii 'Horizontal' is a similar case, but in my opinion the differences compared to the regular lowii are not great enough to call it a different species.

Another thing we are dealing with is the number of plants or sample size. This Paph. lowii 'Horizontal' is just one plant that is growing in a greenhouse. Is it just a genetic abnormality, or is it a true sample of a population that all look similar. Just like Fabrice points out within a batch of seedlings you can have plants the look like the 'Horizontal' type, and plants that almost look like Paph. richardianum. I don't think you can base your conclusion from just one plant. However if you would discover a whole population of plants in the wild that all share the same characteristics than you could say that it is a different variety or a different species (depending on the characteristics).

One thing I do find interesting about this plant is the blooming season, it always blooms 6 months later than the regular lowii's.

Robert


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## Scott Ware (Nov 6, 2008)

Drorchid said:


> ... One thing I do find interesting about this plant is the blooming season, it always blooms 6 months later than the regular lowii's.
> 
> Robert



Oh, well that does it. I thought maybe we had plants form the same group but mine bloom 6 months BEFORE the regular Paph. lowii. :evil:


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## Drorchid (Nov 6, 2008)

Scott Ware said:


> Oh, well that does it. I thought maybe we had plants form the same group but mine bloom 6 months BEFORE the regular Paph. lowii. :evil:



That is funny! :rollhappy:You must have an early Bloomer!, while mine is a late Bloomer...

Robert


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## SlipperFan (Nov 6, 2008)

New meaning for "six of one, a half dozen of the other..."


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## paphioboy (Nov 6, 2008)

I don't care what it is... I love all of them.. Both lowiis and Julius...:drool: :drool:


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## Hien (Nov 6, 2008)

Scott Ware said:


> Oh, well that does it. I thought maybe we had plants form the same group but mine bloom 6 months BEFORE the regular Paph. lowii. :evil:


 6 months before the regular & 6 months after the regular is exactly at the same month, cause there are only 12 months in a year.


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## Scott Ware (Nov 6, 2008)

Momma always said that if you have to explain a joke, then it wasn't very funny. I guess I'll just have to try harder next time.


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## paphioboy (Nov 7, 2008)

> Momma always said that if you have to explain a joke, then it wasn't very funny. I guess I'll just have to try harder next time.



:rollhappy: :rollhappy: :rollhappy: Poor Hien doesn't get it... oke:


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## Drorchid (Nov 7, 2008)

Scott Ware said:


> Momma always said that if you have to explain a joke, then it wasn't very funny. I guess I'll just have to try harder next time.



I got it!

Robert


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## Hien (Nov 7, 2008)

Scott Ware said:


> Momma always said that if you have to explain a joke, then it wasn't very funny. I guess I'll just have to try harder next time.



Oh, Oh the joke is on me.


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## Lance Birk (Nov 7, 2008)

Robert,

Thanks for the good post. I agree with most your comments however I will add that from my experience, separate geographic locations generally contain plants with very few variations between them. I suspect selfings of your subject will produce a great many flowers with very similar, horizontal petals. You can see another example in my paph book, of the same flower type, produced from a collected plant. If you can get good habitat data for your plant it should answer that same question about my printed photo.

Unfortunately, I'm very suspicious of the flowers in the photo shown by Fabrice. It seems very likely that two different "types" of P. lowii were crossed to produce those two different flowers. ...... and thereby, continuing the chaos.

This issue of "sib-selfing of similar types" really needs some attention, don't you think?


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## goldenrose (Nov 7, 2008)

Hien said:


> Oh, Oh the joke is on me.


That's OK, you're a sweetheart - we love you Hien!


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## Drorchid (Nov 7, 2008)

Lance Birk said:


> Robert,
> 
> Thanks for the good post. I agree with most your comments however I will add that from my experience, separate geographic locations generally contain plants with very few variations between them. I suspect selfings of your subject will produce a great many flowers with very similar, horizontal petals. You can see another example in my paph book, of the same flower type, produced from a collected plant. If you can get good habitat data for your plant it should answer that same question about my printed photo.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your input Lance.

Now going to the issue of crossing similar types, I will start a new thread, as it does not have much to do with the lowii Horizontal. Be sure to read it!

Robert


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## biothanasis (Nov 9, 2008)

All of them have very beautiful colours and shape!!!!


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## Rick (Nov 9, 2008)

Lance Birk said:


> Robert,
> 
> Thanks for the good post. I agree with most your comments however I will add that from my experience, separate geographic locations generally contain plants with very few variations between them. I suspect selfings of your subject will produce a great many flowers with very similar, horizontal petals. You can see another example in my paph book, of the same flower type, produced from a collected plant.



Lance. How local (or widespread) are the various forms of lowii you've seen?

It seems like there are multiple forms on Borneo, but are smaller islands dominated by a single form?


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## Lance Birk (Nov 10, 2008)

It's impossible to know just how widespread a habitat range certain types of species occupy. What you do is, examine specimens from as many locations as is possible, then compare the results. Who can do this?

I've always been suspicious of Cribb's 'area maps' because I know he's never been there to cover the entire region, nor has Kew's collectors. What he's done is to show the outer range of where a species has been located, and then guess at the rest. His maps of P. lowii (and P. bullenianum, etc.) each cover a huge area, and they fail to allow for "discrepencies" within locally isolated "hotspots." As we make more investigations we then find these spots which at times, harbor distinctly different types, usually derived from ancestral heritage, and we name them as new species. P. richardianum and P. lynniae are two fine examples.

Cribb's (and others) refusal to accept P. celebesense as distinct from the type P. bullenianum is a case in point. I think P, celebesense can be distinguished by most all orchidists, from P. bullenianum, as can others in this same complex. The question then becomes, ... do we split or do we lump?

Herr Bundt, on Sulawesi, once told me there are two forms of P. mastersianum, one from Ambon, the other from Ceram. Well, I've only seen the one we know, and now, for the past 8-9 years, Muslims are actively killing too many Christians over there to take the chance to find out for ourself.

P. virens is easily distinguished from P. javanicaum The ranges are far apart and can be separated geographically, as well as can their individual habitats.

I could go on and on. Who can answer your question? I don't think we will ever know, particularly since the CITES debacle. Unfortunately!


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## SlipperKing (Nov 10, 2008)

I have to side with you Lance on this topic of lumpers vs. splitters. I really take issue with breeders that would cross closely related species for "hybrid vigor" just to make a buck. In the end, all you have is "pot plant" setting in a supermarket, neglected then trashed. If left alone the species over time, would split again and again, and we would have more species. But no, man has to cross back these naturally accuring splits and what do we get? Mud. I like to look at it as a rainbow. If the species where to colors of the rainbow what would you get if you mixed them all up? More mud.
I don't know how you viewed Dr. Jack Fowlie but he was my hero early on. I couldn't wait to get my next issue of OD and to read his adventures. I think I learned allot on how to grow Paphs from his articles. He was a go getter. After he stepped down as editor I stopped getting the OD.
I also like your idea of adding "col" to the tags. I'm going to do just that of the ones I know for sure are collected plants.


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## Lance Birk (Nov 10, 2008)

Careful Rick, ......... I said tags should be made only at collection time.

But I think you would be able to make that call.


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## Drorchid (Nov 10, 2008)

SlipperKing said:


> I have to side with you Lance on this topic of lumpers vs. splitters. I really take issue with breeders that would cross closely related species for "hybrid vigor" just to make a buck. In the end, all you have is "pot plant" setting in a supermarket, neglected then trashed. If left alone the species over time, would split again and again, and we would have more species. But no, man has to cross back these naturally accuring splits and what do we get? Mud. I like to look at it as a rainbow. If the species where to colors of the rainbow what would you get if you mixed them all up? More mud.
> I don't know how you viewed Dr. Jack Fowlie but he was my hero early on. I couldn't wait to get my next issue of OD and to read his adventures. I think I learned allot on how to grow Paphs from his articles. He was a go getter. After he stepped down as editor I stopped getting the OD.
> I also like your idea of adding "col" to the tags. I'm going to do just that of the ones I know for sure are collected plants.



Hey Rick, I hope you don't see me as one of those breeders who creates Mud just to make a buck . I personally have 2 goals when I am propagating species. I totally agree with you that you should keep some populations pure, so I just do sib crosses within a population (if they are all the same variety, or same form). Even if I just have one specimen of a species, or a variety, I will always self it, just to keep it going. These plants will be the ones that keep the variety name, or forma name. But at the same time I will usually outcross plants to a different variety or species, just to make stronger plants. I will however NEVER cross any of these back to the pure line and mix them together, as soon as I cross 2 different varieties together they loose the "variety" status. You may ask why do I do this? 

1) if they are 2 different varieties of the same species, when you cross 2 different varieties, you still have the same species. But you have created a much stronger plant, that more hobby growers will be able to grow. You say it will be Mud, but I personally think you have created genetic diversity, and you can select for desirable traits.

2) what happens if you only have one specimen of a very rare species or a variety. Say you try to self it, but it won't take, or the plant dies. If you sib it with something else, at least you pass the genes of that plant on to the next generation. True, it will not look identical to the original plant, but I think that is better than totally loosing everything.

Robert


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## NYEric (Nov 10, 2008)

I think loss of a species is tragic; but crossing is only a problem when identity is lost.


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