# A new Phrag Asuko Fischer cross and why it is different



## terryros (Sep 14, 2010)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/4990220091/in/set-72157624956381988/

I have permission from Orchids Limited for this report.

In January 2002 Jason Fischer of Orchids Limited registered a new Phagmipedium cross, Asuko Fischer, named after his wife. This cross was Jason Fischer (named after Jason) x fischerii (a species named after Jerry Fischer, Jason’s father, the founder of Orchids Limited).

I think there was surprise at this cross because many of the flowers were large and dark pink to maroon in color as shown in these pictures in Phragweb and a post in this forum by Drorchid (Robert, who is the Phd for Orchids Limited) in 2007. I have seen this plant/flower in person and it is indeed large and dark maroon/red and grabs your eye immediately.

http://www.phragweb.info/phragmiped...+Fischer&photo_type=P&photo=True&detail=False

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5102&highlight=Asuko+Fischer

Orchids Limited remade the Asuko Fischer cross and only two plantlets (my terminology) were formed that autocloned (my terminology) in the flask so that only two groups of seedlings were formed. The plant that I recently flowered is from the ‘Kyoto Sunrise’ clone. This first bloom seedling is on a small plant (22 cm leaf span) and the flower is 5 cm in width. It is very pretty, but very different from the original Asuko Fischers.

This flower is more believable for a Jason Fischer x fischeri cross. Orchids Limited now think that the original Asuko Fischer cross must somehow have been different, perhaps involving Barbara LeAnn instead of fischeri. Phrag Rising Son was registered by Orchids Limited in 2003 and was Jason Fischer x Barbara LeAnn. I cannot find pictures of Rising Son but can imagine that at least some of the original Asuko Fischer’s could have been Rising Son. The stronger besseae influence and lesser fischeri influence would explain the differences.


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## Shiva (Sep 14, 2010)

Interesting pic Terry. Quite different from the Asuko Fischer we know. Thanks also for the info.


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## tomkalina (Sep 14, 2010)

I may be missing something here, but I think it's possible both photos are still the same cross, regardless of the shape difference. If one was made with a Jason Fischer that itself was configured (besseae x Mem. Dick Clements), I would expect it to look like the first photo. If the Jason Fischer used was configured (Mem. Dick Clements x besseae) then I would expect it to look like the second photo, because of the dominance for shape exhibited by MDC when it's used as the capsule parent. 

Thanks,


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## NYEric (Sep 14, 2010)

There are/were photos of Rising Son somewhere in this forum. I have a hard time picturing the plants previously registered as Asuko Fischer as really being Rising Son because Dr. Rob gave me a hard time about wanting that plant (Rising Son) which had been such a dissappointment. I'm hoping the new one is not Asuko Fischer because it looks very whimpy.


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## e-spice (Sep 14, 2010)

What is the health of the Asuko Fischer 'Kyoto Sunrise'? Is it blooming on a super small plant?

I could definitely go along with the theory that at least some of the original Asukos were actually Rising Son. To me, the clones 'Genki' and 'Beautifull Girl' look more like they have 25% fischeri (which Rising Son has) and not 50% like a true Asuko would have. They are also larger than one would expect for a 50% fischeri hybrid. The clones noted above look like the fantastic Fox Valley cross, Fox Valley Fireball (see below), which is very similar in species composition to Rising Son.







e-spice


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## Drorchid (Sep 14, 2010)

Funny that you posted this, as one of our Asuko Fischer 'Kyoto Sunrise' was opening up as well, and I was going to post a picture of it tomorrow. But yes, unfortunately I have to agree (sorry Eric), that originally we probably mixed the two crosses up. This new Jason Fischer x fischeri, is much more what I expected this cross to look like, the flower is much smaller (similar in size as what we originally had labeled as Rising Son) and it is very distinctly bi-colored.

Robert


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## Drorchid (Sep 14, 2010)

NYEric said:


> There are/were photos of Rising Son somewhere in this forum. I have a hard time picturing the plants previously registered as Asuko Fischer as really being Rising Son because Dr. Rob gave me a hard time about wanting that plant (Rising Son) which had been such a dissappointment. I'm hoping the new one is not Asuko Fischer because it looks very whimpy.



I agree, the first Rising Son's were very wimpy, which gives further indication that what I had labeled as Rising Son's were actually Jason Fischer x fischeri, which is the same cross as the 'Kyoto Sunrise'. Out of that cross I only got 2 seedlings, and both of them have been pretty wimpy and are small plants, and as you can see from the 'Kyoto Sunrise' the flowers are also pretty small, much smaller than what we had originally labeled as Asuko Fischer, so those plants were probably Jason Fischer x Barbara LeAnn and should be relabeled as Rising Son.

I guess I will just have to remake Barbara LeAnn x Jason Fischer, and than we will know for sure...

Robert


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## e-spice (Sep 14, 2010)

NYEric said:


> There are/were photos of Rising Son somewhere in this forum. I have a hard time picturing the plants previously registered as Asuko Fischer as really being Rising Son because Dr. Rob gave me a hard time about wanting that plant (Rising Son) which had been such a dissappointment. I'm hoping the new one is not Asuko Fischer because it looks very whimpy.



Can they do a website search and replace for you? Any where you're posting about your "Asuko Fischer" infatuation needs to be changed to "Rising Son". :rollhappy:

e-spice


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## terryros (Sep 14, 2010)

My Asuko Fischer posted is a pretty flower that I find striking in appearance because of the bicolor. I can imagine a more mature plant having 6 cm flowers. I like it better than my several Inca Rose plants currently blooming and at least as pretty as a nice Hanne Popow. So, I think this is still a nice cross. I do have a Fox Valley Fireball and can see how Rising Son could be similar. I would like Robert to remake Rising Son so I could get one!


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## NYEric (Sep 15, 2010)

Bahaha! Cant go back and change any awards! It doesn't matter what they're called, just wish I could bloom more.


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## e-spice (Sep 15, 2010)

NYEric said:


> Bahaha! Cant go back and change any awards! It doesn't matter what they're called, just wish I could bloom more.



Did you get some awarded?

e-spice


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## Phrag-Plus (Sep 15, 2010)

tomkalina said:


> I may be missing something here, but I think it's possible both photos are still the same cross, regardless of the shape difference. If one was made with a Jason Fischer that itself was configured (besseae x Mem. Dick Clements), I would expect it to look like the first photo. If the Jason Fischer used was configured (Mem. Dick Clements x besseae) then I would expect it to look like the second photo, because of the dominance for shape exhibited by MDC when it's used as the capsule parent.
> 
> Thanks,



The label could and should be correct for me! I agree with Tom…
Variation within a cross can be very high and especially with the fischerii hybrids. 
Many of the crosses I’ve made using fischerii and B. Lee Ann are giving a wide range of variation in size, form and colour and on each one, few bicoloured phenotype. My Phrag. Michel Tremblay cross = Hanne Popow x fischerii and Serge Harvey = Don Wimber x B. Lee Ann are both highly variables.


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## e-spice (Sep 15, 2010)

Phrag-Plus said:


> The label could and should be correct for me! I agree with Tom…
> Variation within a cross can be very high and especially with the fischerii hybrids.
> Many of the crosses I’ve made using fischerii and B. Lee Ann are giving a wide range of variation in size, form and colour and on each one, few bicoloured phenotype. My Phrag. Michel Tremblay cross = Hanne Popow x fischerii and Serge Harvey = Don Wimber x B. Lee Ann are both highly variables.



Uh, we're gonna need a few of those Serge Harveys :drool: down here in the States to do a little more research on this subject. oke:


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## Drorchid (Sep 15, 2010)

I did find a picture of one of the plants that was originally labeled as Phrag. Rising Son (Jason Fischer 'Velvet Fire' FCC/AOS x Barbara LeAnn 'Muscles'):






looking at this flower, it actually deepens the mystery, as I can hardly see any fischeri at all in this plant, and this one too does not look at all like the remake of Asuko Fischer 'Kyoto Surprise'. Either the plants got mislabeled (both these crosses where done before I came here to Orchids Limited), or like Phrag-Plus said as we are dealing with "complex" hybrids with maybe different ploidy levels, so you do get a lot of variation, and even if you remake a cross, but use different parents you may get a total different outcome, and like Tom said, sometimes you even get different outcomes depending on what you use as a pod or pollen parent, so who knows maybe the original Asuko Fischers were labeled correctly after all, I guess only time will tell...

Robert


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## Drorchid (Sep 15, 2010)

This morning I took two pictures of our Phrag. Asuko Fischer 'Kyoto Sunrise'

Here is one that just opened up:






And here is one that has been open for a while:






I decided to remake Phrag. Rising Son (Jason Fischer x Barbara LeAnn) and used these two parents; the Jason Fischer is a select one, from our last batch of Jason Fischers (besseae 'Rick Hunter' x M.D. Clements 'Red Wing'):

Jason Fischer 'Red Lightning':






Barbara LeAnn 'A':






I will be curious to see if these will resemble the original batch of Rising Sons, or resemble more the original Asuko Fischers, what do you guys think?

Robert


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## slippertalker (Sep 15, 2010)

I think I would like some seedlings!


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## NYEric (Sep 15, 2010)

I believe the color of the Phrag Rising Son shows fischeri in the background.


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## Leo Schordje (Sep 15, 2010)

For what it is worth; Tom Kalina's point is on the mark. With these complex hybrids, the variation can be large, especially here where you are dealing with higher ploidy numbers. 

Unless you have knowledge of how the flask moved through the lab and repotting phases that specifically indicates likely mis-labelling, I would say you should assume the label is correct. We all do try to keep the labels straight, and I am sure that even before you arrived at OL, Jerry was quite diligent at maintaining accurate labels. Now accidents do happen, but with output from the cross being so low, most likely these seedlings were 'kept track of' and not allowed to get mislabelled. These are my thoughts, Robert, use your judgement on the labelling issue.


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## Hera (Sep 15, 2010)

I have been hoping for awhile that these would be remade. Can't wait until they are available.


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## slippertalker (Sep 15, 2010)

Leo Schordje said:


> For what it is worth; Tom Kalina's point is on the mark. With these complex hybrids, the variation can be large, especially here where you are dealing with higher ploidy numbers.
> 
> Unless you have knowledge of how the flask moved through the lab and repotting phases that specifically indicates likely mis-labelling, I would say you should assume the label is correct. We all do try to keep the labels straight, and I am sure that even before you arrived at OL, Jerry was quite diligent at maintaining accurate labels. Now accidents do happen, but with output from the cross being so low, most likely these seedlings were 'kept track of' and not allowed to get mislabelled. These are my thoughts, Robert, use your judgement on the labelling issue.



This is spot on; there can be variation in such crosses, and assuming a different parentage is a dangerous course for such closely related crosses.


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## terryros (Sep 15, 2010)

I think it is clear to everyone that the only way to know for sure is to carefully remake both crosses and track them and see what happens. Unfortunately, by the time these new crosses flower some of us aren't even going to be able to remember what the whole discussion was even about.


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