# Time to give up on my roth?



## The Mutant (Jun 16, 2012)

I checked the roots on it today and this is what I found:







I feel very down at the moment and I really don't know how to proceed. The only thing my brain can come up with is sphagnum since its already standing on a heating mat, I've kept it dryer and it stands a bit darker.

What do you guys think? Is sphagnum a good or bad idea? To be honest, I don't think it'll make it whatever I do, but I'm willing to try anything within my power... :sob:


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## Paphman910 (Jun 16, 2012)

I think you should not give up hope!

I would pot it in a mixture of bark, sphagnum moss with perlite. I find sphagnum moss does get too wet to be used as the only medium.

Please pot in the small pot and put it in a bright humid location with air circulation. Is should comeback to life.

They are slow to re-establish when it has no active roots. I got a seedling last year of Paph rothschildianum 'Mont Millais' x 'Perfection' that had 2 non active roots! So far the plant has put out 2 new roots and a smaller leaf. It is a real snail of a grower!

Paphman910


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## Paphman910 (Jun 16, 2012)

Another thing is to grow it warm with your current Phal collection.


Paphman910


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## Justin (Jun 16, 2012)

It should be OK. I would use fine bark with some small perlite and charcoal. And some patience. It can take 6 months or longer until it grows new roots.

Does it need to continue on a heating mat? What is the ambient temperature?


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## eggshells (Jun 16, 2012)

Here is a trick that I use that works well for me. Get some twist ties, wrap it around the roots. This will serve as artificial roots to anchor the plant. pot it in a 2" pot. Avoid digging around the roots and checking it and don't disturb it as much as possible. keep in high humidity. Keep it on the dry side as it has no roots at the moment. It will not drink so much. Bottom leaves might turn yellow as it will use this as food to grow roots.

Good luck and be patient. Meanwhile, I posted on your post to inquire from some of the members here from Europe if they have a few seedlings to sell. I found that hobbyist grow there plants more meticulously and better.


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## The Mutant (Jun 16, 2012)

Thank you so very much guys! You have no idea how happy you've made me with your responses. 

I've put it back into its pot (it's as tiny as possible, about 3" - the long, scraggly root it has prevents it to go into anything smaller) and the fine bark/sphagnum/perlite mix it was in, I removed it from the heating mat (I don't think it's necessary anymore), and placed it together with the Phal crew and I SWEAR not to disturb it for at least a month or two, I've marked today's date in my calendar so as not to forget it. 

It was very good of you to write how long it has taken for your roth to grow some new roots *Pahman910* since I've no idea how long it usually takes and since the Michael Koopowitz has been fooling me by getting more and more root nubs almost daily it feels like (I'm very glad that it's such a vigorous hybrid I have), now I know a bit more of what to expect. Also, extra thanks to you *eggshells* for warning me about the bottom leaves, otherwise I might have freaked about that too.  Oh, and thanks for asking if anyone has a seedling for sale here in Europe (you just want to see me drown in Paphs, don't you :wink: ).

Thanks again guys, now I feel motivated to fight again!


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## hardy (Jun 16, 2012)

If the remaining roots are still firm, then they can still absorb water.
The plant can be watered, just control the amount so that the roots do not rot.
I think there's good chance the plant will survive


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## NYEric (Jun 16, 2012)

yes, firm roots is key. Soft, hollow roots is very bad.


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## Roth (Jun 16, 2012)

The plant has been grown in sphagnum again... which made it comes from Taiwan I think. It is not a problem, but most paphs grown in pure sphag moss have only one or two roots. They do not need way more. The plant by itself looks healthy, so it should restart easily...


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## biothanasis (Jun 17, 2012)

Interesting explanation for sphagnum usage.

Good luck with your plant tM.


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## The Mutant (Jun 17, 2012)

All the remaining roots are firm, including Mr Long and Scraggly, so that's good. I think the key element is that I don't disturb it anymore and I feel really bad for having done so. 

I really hope it'll start growing when it discovers that I won't poke at it anymore. 



Roth said:


> The plant has been grown in sphagnum again... which made it comes from Taiwan I think. It is not a problem, but most paphs grown in pure sphag moss have only one or two roots. They do not need way more. The plant by itself looks healthy, so it should restart easily...


You are correct, it came from Taiwan, but usually Schwerter have a notice informing about this and they always recommend these non-established plants for experienced growers, but this roth didn't have any notice saying so so I thought it was established already. The Michael Koopowitz had such a notice, but that guy is growing like mad (the benefits of hybrids I suppose) so I'm not worried about it. The only thing that was mentioned about this roth was that it had been repotted in April and thus had not established itself, but that it was no cause for concern.

It was when I wrote to Schwerter and informed them about the condition of its root system that I learned that it was indeed a Taiwan import and that all they had bought of this size had the same lousy root systems (probably due to the sphagnum as you said).

It has started sagging with its lower leaf, but otherwise it looks healthy so I hope you are right!


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## Paphman910 (Jun 17, 2012)

I bet the lower leaves are wrinkled as well and will probably lose a few more lower leaves until it grows a new leaf that will be tiny compared to older leaves and really slow growing. Then it grows new roots that are adapted to the new medium. Just be patience! 

Vendors do keep the bigger and more vigorous growing seedlings but my seedling that I got from the vendor have sometimes grew even faster and bigger than their own seedling in the same amount of time.

Paphman910


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## Rick (Jun 17, 2012)

I've pulled out worse than that.

Good suggestions posted so far. Paphman910 has a lot of experience with roths. I would second that roths like pretty bright light compared to the barbata types that have been blooming for you so far. So if you can keep the humidity up, then I'd increase the light level around this plant.


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## The Mutant (Jun 17, 2012)

Paphman910 said:


> I bet the lower leaves are wrinkled as well and will probably lose a few more lower leaves until it grows a new leaf that will be tiny compared to older leaves and really slow growing. Then it grows new roots that are adapted to the new medium. Just be patience!
> 
> Vendors do keep the bigger and more vigorous growing seedlings but my seedling that I got from the vendor have sometimes grew even faster and bigger than their own seedling in the same amount of time.
> 
> Paphman910


Actually it isn't but I'm now prepared for it to become wrinkled. So far it hasn't lost any leaves but before this ordeal is over, I expect it will. Again, thank you for giving me some sort of time reference; it's one thing to hear that they are slow and a completely different one to get some examples of *how* slow slow actually is.

It seems they all vary quite a lot when it comes to growth speed etc. and I have a feeling this guy will make a glacier look fast in comparison. 



Rick said:


> I've pulled out worse than that.
> 
> Good suggestions posted so far. Paphman910 has a lot of experience with roths. I would second that roths like pretty bright light compared to the barbata types that have been blooming for you so far. So if you can keep the humidity up, then I'd increase the light level around this plant.


Alright, then I'll move it to its buddies MK and roebelenii which are both enjoying some extra light. I don't know if the light will be enough to bloom any of them, it's not enough for the roth, but maybe the other two. On the other hand, another roth is probably joining the crew tomorrow so maybe it's time to invest in some T5 lighting after all...


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## Paphman910 (Jun 17, 2012)

The Mutant said:


> Actually it isn't but I'm now prepared for it to become wrinkled. So far it hasn't lost any leaves but before this ordeal is over, I expect it will. Again, thank you for giving me some sort of time reference; it's one thing to hear that they are slow and a completely different one to get some examples of *how* slow slow actually is.
> 
> It seems they all vary quite a lot when it comes to growth speed etc. and I have a feeling this guy will make a glacier look fast in comparison.
> 
> ...



I forgot to mention that it will be slow growing until it grows lots of roots and the whole plant will suddenly grow fast!

I got a philippinense 3 inch seedling from a friend who said they were slow but I unpotted it and it has 3 short roots. I grew the plant in my warm bright conditions and it did not show much growth for 2 years and then suddenly it grew twice the size in another two years and produced a flower spike with 5 flowers and 2 new growths!

T5 investment is a great idea! 

I can't wait for my Paph stonei with 5 buds to open soon and show it to you!

Paphman910


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## The Mutant (Jun 17, 2012)

Paphman910 said:


> I forgot to mention that it will be slow growing until it grows lots of roots and the whole plant will suddenly grow fast!
> 
> I got a philippinense 3 inch seedling from a friend who said they were slow but I unpotted it and it has 3 short roots. I grew the plant in my warm bright conditions and it did not show much growth for 2 years and then suddenly it grew twice the size in another two years and produced a flower spike with 5 flowers and 2 new growths!
> 
> ...


So unless one have the bad luck of getting a "dud" all they need is a bit of time and some TLC in the meantime, that's good to know. 

Yep, I think so too since it seems I want these light-loving Paphs so why not go for it? I still want to keep them on my windowsill so they'll get some natural light as well (it's just an idea I have that flowers should be kept on your windowsills, nothing else). Should I go for the strongest T5 I've found at one online shop, 80w and 5700 lumen, or will this be too weak? And will the MK and roebelenii appreciate this as much as the roth will?


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## eggshells (Jun 17, 2012)

I grow mine under 4 ft T5 with reflector hood. They seem to be doing good. I think you could get away on this kind of lighting.


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## Paphman910 (Jun 17, 2012)

The Mutant said:


> So unless one have the bad luck of getting a "dud" all they need is a bit of time and some TLC in the meantime, that's good to know.
> 
> Yep, I think so too since it seems I want these light-loving Paphs so why not go for it? I still want to keep them on my windowsill so they'll get some natural light as well (it's just an idea I have that flowers should be kept on your windowsills, nothing else). Should I go for the strongest T5 I've found at one online shop, 80w and 5700 lumen, or will this be too weak? And will the MK and roebelenii appreciate this as much as the roth will?



I grew my roth under 3 T5HO 24W and they did great! So the 80w t5ho should be fine! Make sure they are at least 6 inches above the leaves. It is good to complement them with natural light from the window sill.

Eggshells setup consist of four 4ft 54w T5HO for a total of 216w. But he has many nice plants so need the extra lighting to cover more area.

The MK and roebellini can take as much light as the roth.

Paphman910


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## The Mutant (Jun 18, 2012)

Good! Then I'll let these more light loving guys stick together which makes it easier for me. I'll order the T5 today so my little ones will be happy.


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## Paphman910 (Jun 18, 2012)

The Mutant said:


> Good! Then I'll let these more light loving guys stick together which makes it easier for me. I'll order the T5 today so my little ones will be happy.



Keep us posted on how they are doing!

Paphman910


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## The Mutant (Jun 18, 2012)

Trust me, you'll regret writing that.


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## cnycharles (Jun 21, 2012)

mmm, though a plant might normally like a lot of light, if it's a bit short on roots I might keep it slightly shadier until it pops out some new roots. being almost rootless, if it starts respiring and pushing moisture out it's leaves, the few root(s) may not be able to keep up with the moisture flow. of course higher humidity will help, and actually at least in the u.s. you can buy a spray to put on leaves that can help to prevent some moisture being passed through the stomates

once a plant has some roots, you can always move it to a bit higher light. I would think your goal right now is to get some roots, and then when it has some roots, you can move it to higher light and then start thinking about building a monster plant that will have a ton of flowers! .. it will be a while before there are any flowers, so pushing the light too much probably isn't overly necessary at this point


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## The Mutant (Jun 22, 2012)

Alright, it has been moved and is now standing bright, but not as bright as the others.


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