# Water Structure



## keithrs (Dec 7, 2011)

I curious how much importance is placed on water structure. It seems to becoming important more and more.... The reason for adding tap/well water to RO or distilled water.

How does it help a plant?

Would it be better to use ceramic ball filters to add structure back in stead of adding tap/well water?

Whats the deal with Far Inferred Ray or FIR filters? Hydro guys are on a kick to use FIR, along with negatively charging the water through filter to be able to release mineral like P, K, and CA. With these processes they can "super" oxygenate the water.


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## Rick (Dec 7, 2011)

I'm a bit confused on this Keithrs

RO, well water, tap water.....

still reffering to chemical issues.

RO (or distilled water) is pure water. No minerals whatsoever, straight H2O.

Everything else (well water, river water, tap water, spring water, even rain water) has dissolved minerals in it.

So while we are talking about NPK Ca Mg of various fertilizer formulas and feeding strategies for plants, the chemical contribution from your regular irrigation source water must be accounted for in the total program.

MSU fertilizer adds significant Ca and Mg, but not as much as K.

If you add 1/2 tsp of MSU into RO water you get about 100 mg/L K but maybe 50 mg/L Ca and 15 mg/L Mg.

If you put the same amount of MSU into Nashville tap water, you would end up with 101 mg/L K, 75 mg/L Ca, 20 mg/L Mg, silicates, and all kinds of other trace goodies not neccessarily added into MSU.

Since we have been discussing the big interplay of K, Ca, and Mg, and how it relates to various growers conditions, the only way you can compare the chemistry and biology going on from one grower to the next is to understand the the different chemistries of all the different waters growers use to water their plants with. So I don't understand the concept of structures as you presented.


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## keithrs (Dec 7, 2011)

Rick, My suspicion is that water "structure" is more important to the hydro/terra guys. After doing research, it's more for "active" biology in the water they use and fertilize with.


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## keithrs (Dec 7, 2011)

I'm still curious what FIR filters do and what other ceramic filter we my befit from?

I under stand how FIR work in relation to cells but what benefit does it give?


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## Justin (Dec 7, 2011)

In addition to following Rick's low-K regimen, I have also started adding in tap water back into my R/O for a couple of waterings every month. I had used nothing but pure R/O with hydroponic liquid fertilzer for many years and I was having bad outbreaks of erwina. The erwina was reversed probably 99% in the months since changing my feeding formula. 

I believe the tap water also has helped. 

One thing about pure R/O though, it has the benefits of growing very nice root systems on paphs. But the occasional hit of tap water won't change that I'm sure.


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## Roth (Dec 8, 2011)

keithrs said:


> Rick, My suspicion is that water "structure" is more important to the hydro/terra guys. After doing research, it's more for "active" biology in the water they use and fertilize with.



RO water has no carbonates, and no gases in many instances. When you see improved results using tap water, or a mix tap water/RO water, it is because you add carbonate back to the RO water ( it has nothing to do with the calcium content of the water by itself, as calcium nitrate in RO does not replace a source of carbonates, and rain water performs better than RO either). The second thing, in many cases RO water does not have dissolved gases, and I think both carbonate and gases are the parameters that make a difference between RO and tap/rain water.

There is no structure stories, or numinous filters, etc... they are all scams. Indeed, I refuse to add back tap water to the RO, because I don't know the composition of the tap water at any time of the year, and passing a part of the RO water on a slow moving marble filter has the same effect ( no chlorosis problems, no rot...).

Now I use calcium hydroxide in the RO water with CO2 bubbling, it works wonders... ( aquarium people do the same now).


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## keithrs (Dec 8, 2011)

Apparently there is a bio ceramic FIR treatment filters that so on so convert "dead" water into "growing" water like you would get from high mountain spring water with a high PH. They claim the water that comes from treatment station has a "loose" water structure from the chlorine and what ever else is added to the water. They also claim that your plants and you will consume the same amount of water from 1 cup of this "grow" water as you would in 5 cups of well or tap water because the filter changes the charge of the water and the plant cells "soak up" the ions better. They also claim to convert "hard" Ca into "soft" Ca for your plants to use along with Mg, Fe, and P.

The funny part is that for the life of me, I can't find anything on this tech. except for what I was told at SD Hydro and a youtube video. Go figure.....


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## PaulS (Dec 8, 2011)

Keith, 

I would ask these people to provide links to articles or research on this subject, something that has been peer-reviewed and then published in a scientific journal. 

Somehow I doubt they will be able to do so. It all sounds like non-science to me. Water doesn't have a structure unless it's frozen, and you 'loosen' it by melting. Anything else is all to do with what is dissolved in the water (gasses and minerals). I have never heard of 'dead' or 'growing' water, the closest I can think of is oxygenated or stagnant.

Sorry mate, sounds like someone is trying to blind you with 'science'.


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## keithrs (Dec 8, 2011)

This company, claims that it is the first treatment filter to be approve by Food and Drug addm. and the NSF. 

If anyone wants to watch the three part video these the link......

Growing with water


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## Ray (Dec 8, 2011)

keithrs said:


> Apparently there is a bio ceramic FIR treatment filters that so on so convert "dead" water into "growing" water like you would get from high mountain spring water with a high PH. They claim the water that comes from treatment station has a "loose" water structure from the chlorine and what ever else is added to the water. They also claim that your plants and you will consume the same amount of water from 1 cup of this "grow" water as you would in 5 cups of well or tap water because the filter changes the charge of the water and the plant cells "soak up" the ions better. They also claim to convert "hard" Ca into "soft" Ca for your plants to use along with Mg, Fe, and P.
> 
> The funny part is that for the life of me, I can't find anything on this tech. except for what I was told at SD Hydro and a youtube video. Go figure.....


Holy crap! I hope you're not buying any of that.

Pure water has only one "structure" - and it changes only when changing phase - to gas or to solid.

Pure water also contains an infinitesimally-small amount of ionization - its EC is VERY low.

Start adding dissolved chemicals to the water and ionization can occur, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the absorption of the water by the plant. It's certainly a factor in the absorption of nutrients, though, as it is those ions that are taken up, not the "raw" mineral.

Here's a good link:

The BunkHouse- Water related pseudoscience.


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## NYEric (Dec 8, 2011)

Justin said:


> I had used nothing but pure R/O with hydroponic liquid fertilzer for many years and I was having bad outbreaks of erwina. The erwina was reversed probably 99% in the months since changing my feeding formula.
> 
> I believe the tap water also has helped.
> 
> One thing about pure R/O though, it has the benefits of growing very nice root systems on paphs. But the occasional hit of tap water won't change that I'm sure.



That would be a benefit of the chlorine!


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## keithrs (Dec 8, 2011)

Ray said:


> Holy crap! I hope you're not buying any of that.
> 
> Pure water has only one "structure" - and it changes only when changing phase - to gas or to solid.
> 
> ...



I'm not buying it intel I find facts that support it.... But if you don't ask ?'s you'll never know...

I my be wrong but did you say you where a Ceramic Engineer in another post?


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## Erythrone (Dec 8, 2011)

Ray said:


> Holy crap! I hope you're not buying any of that.
> 
> Pure water has only one "structure" - and it changes only when changing phase - to gas or to solid.
> 
> ...



Holy crap........ I agree...


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## Lycaste53 (Dec 8, 2011)

What about water? 
Water is life- water is, like the sun, the earth, the air part of our human-animal-plants life. Water is provided by rain (nearly pure) by the rivers (quite pure or spoiled), by the ground water, down in the soil (might be pure or contain poisons) or by the oceans (salty)
Or by Water- Providers...(Communities etc.) 
Structure of water is H2O. The structure is as fine and light, that it should be a gas, but it is liquid. If is´s frozen (hard) it´s weight is less than in liqid status. Ice swimms on the water.That´s the one and only element, which behaves like that.
Don´t think about water....just let it flow, and stay liquid for youself, swimm at the surface ... 
´Pure water´isn´t water, nothing is pure...


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## Stone (Dec 8, 2011)

What about Holy Water :evil:


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## SlipperFan (Dec 8, 2011)

The water in my pond is holy. I have just declared it so.


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## Ray (Dec 9, 2011)

keithrs said:


> I my be wrong but did you say you where a Ceramic Engineer in another post?


Yep. Bachelor of Ceramic Engineering and an MS In Ceramic Science.

Both of which help me poo-poo the "magic" transformations of those balls.

There have been some (gasp) scientific experiments that show that life could have come about due to the exposure of various organic chemicals in solution to clay crystal lattices - leading to an otherwise unlikely combination of atoms -but that was raw, unfired clay in a "soup" of chemicals.


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## Lanmark (Dec 9, 2011)

SlipperFan said:


> The water in my pond is holy. I have just declared it so.



I've oft considered changing my name to Lee. I could then immerse myself daily in yonder pond and market the resulting fluid as Whole Lee Water. 

All kidding aside, good water quality is important for everyone. The oil and gas industry and its crooked allies like Senator James Inhofe claim to know what's best for the public in spite of the latest EPA report (8th Dec '11) on groundwater contamination from chemicals used in the process of hydraulic fracking/natural gas production. Here's yet another prime example of big corporate greed trumping good science and trampling human lives and the environment in the process.  Meanwhile, coal-fueled power plants along the shores of the Great Lakes continue to spew and dump unacceptable levels of mercury and other deadly contaminants into this priceless resource which holds 21% of this planet's fresh surface water.


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## Shiva (Dec 9, 2011)

Man I never imagined there were so many crackpots living on water alone.


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## Lanmark (Dec 9, 2011)

Shiva said:


> Man I never imagined there were so many crackpots living on water alone.



I eat brussels sprouts too.


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## NYEric (Dec 9, 2011)

Water rights will lead to wars in the next few years!


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## cnycharles (Dec 9, 2011)

NYEric said:


> Water rights will lead to wars in the next few years!



wars are happening in africa, where the ones in power guard the water supplies (and food) and allow those not in power to die of dehydration (and starvation). these people flee to no-where, many dying on the way...


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## Shiva (Dec 9, 2011)

Yeah! Let's use water pistols!


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## Rick (Dec 9, 2011)

Shiva said:


> Man I never imagined there were so many crackpots living on water alone.



And I bet you've never met a Breathnarian (living only on air!!).


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## SlipperFan (Dec 9, 2011)

This has got to be one of the funniest threads ever! :noangel:


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## Rick (Dec 9, 2011)

Roth said:


> RO water has no carbonates, and no gases in many instances. When you see improved results using tap water, or a mix tap water/RO water, it is because you add carbonate back to the RO water ( it has nothing to do with the calcium content of the water by itself, as calcium nitrate in RO does not replace a source of carbonates, and rain water performs better than RO either). The second thing, in many cases RO water does not have dissolved gases, and I think both carbonate and gases are the parameters that make a difference between RO and tap/rain water.
> 
> There is no structure stories, or numinous filters, etc... they are all scams. Indeed, I refuse to add back tap water to the RO, because I don't know the composition of the tap water at any time of the year, and passing a part of the RO water on a slow moving marble filter has the same effect ( no chlorosis problems, no rot...).
> 
> Now I use calcium hydroxide in the RO water with CO2 bubbling, it works wonders... ( aquarium people do the same now).



Actually tap water has all 7 of the major ions (calcium, magnesium, sodium, potassium, chlorides, sulfates, and bicarbonates). A dash of silica, phosphate, and nitrates are not uncommon. It will have a host of micro elements too (boron, copper, iron, manganese, .....) and depending on the municipality it could also have a dash of flouride, bromide, and aluminum. The chlorine will generally salt out to chlorides (a drop in the bucket), or bind up to organic matter short notice if it makes it to a potting soil. 

The amounts of all the above vary considerably from location to location, but the annual variation is not all that great (depends on the size of the supply watershed). Fairly deep ground waters (>50 ft) generally don't vary that much over the year either.

Gas equilibrium happens to all water exposed to air. Even in RO water in just seconds coming off the machine, if there is turbulence at all. There's a bunch of laws that most of us should have learned in high school for these (don't worry I didn't memorize them either). If it wasn't for oxygen in water, fish would suffocate as fast as we would drown. Gills are just lungs turned inside out. Fish and inverts breath air dissolved in water (not water). We stick fish and water fleas in RO water all the time and they don't suffocate as long as the water has been sitting out for a few minutes to equilibrate with the air.

With all the discussion about low K fert and Ca/Mg interaction, it should be important to note that when a standard "balance fert" is added to RO it will not have any Ca in it, but if you add it to a tap water of moderate hardness (about 100 ppm as CaCO3)it will have about 25 ppm of Ca and 5 ppm of Mg in it. Many people will still see Ca/Mg/P deficiency symptoms even though bicarbonates are present (K is >>Ca) The MSU RO mix will provide allmost 60 mg/L of Ca/Mg/P (and true you can still end up with Ca deficiency issues (as K is over 100ppm). If you have oyster shell, limestone sand, or other fine calcerious material there will be additional calcium (and bicarbonates) available for plants, and symptoms are often reduced. If you Make up the MSU in tap water (of mod hardness) now you have almost equal K to Ca. At this point most people are only seeing scatterd Ca/Mg/P deficiency symptoms (especially for adult plants, hybrids, or when potting mixes are strongly buffered). 

The importance of bicarbonates has more to do with how the plant wants to deal with nitrogen, while the K issue is more tied to Ca, Mg, P, and probably Na (sodium won't be in RO water either).

So there are lots of reasons (lots of variables) why a dash of tap water is better than straight RO, but it is not because of gas balance.


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## Shiva (Dec 9, 2011)

Rick said:


> Actually tap water has all 7 of the major ions (calcium, magnesium, sodium, potassium, chlorides, sulfates, and bicarbonates). A dash of silica, phosphate, and nitrates are not uncommon. It will have a host of micro elements too (boron, copper, iron, manganese, .....) and depending on the municipality it could also have a dash of flouride, bromide, and aluminum./quote]
> 
> I just had a glass of water and I feel full already! oke:


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## Lanmark (Dec 9, 2011)

Shiva said:


> I just had a glass of water and I feel full already! oke:



Just when you thought you were full, you can explore the bizarre topic of water bears (tardigrades) which are wonderfully unique little critters most of us have never seen nor heard about... :clap:


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## Stone (Dec 9, 2011)

Rick said:


> And I bet you've never met a Breathnarian (living only on air!!).



I met one of these guys when I was hiking around California in the 80's.
He was from New Jersey and was only eating alfala sprouts. He told us he was working his way to the stage of living only on air! My freind and I looked at each other and proceeded to make camp and cook up some dinner ( rice beans and chicken )
We offered him a bowl and after a brief hesitation, he accepted and ate that thing like he'd just crawled out of the desert.


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## Rick (Dec 9, 2011)

Stone said:


> I met one of these guys when I was hiking around California in the 80's.
> He was from New Jersey and was only eating alfala sprouts. He told us he was working his way to the stage of living only on air! My freind and I looked at each other and proceeded to make camp and cook up some dinner ( rice beans and chicken )
> We offered him a bowl and after a brief hesitation, he accepted and ate that thing like he'd just crawled out of the desert.




The first time I heard about then was from a New Zealander who said there was a whole colony of them on New Zealand. They were even having Breathnarian babies!!!


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## Stone (Dec 9, 2011)

Rick said:


> The first time I heard about then was from a New Zealander who said there was a whole colony of them on New Zealand. They were even having Breathnarian babies!!!



Now that- I'd like to see!


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## cnycharles (Dec 9, 2011)

i've heard of vegans who try to have children (babies) who are also vegan and not give them any milk, human or otherwise and feed them soymilk only. a few of them ended up in court being charged with child endangerment and unfortunately a few ended up with children so malnourished by their politics that they died

'milk does a body good!'


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## Lanmark (Dec 10, 2011)

cnycharles said:


> i've heard of vegans who try to have children (babies) who are also vegan and not give them any milk, human or otherwise and feed them soymilk only. a few of them ended up in court being charged with child endangerment and unfortunately a few ended up with children so malnourished by their politics that they died



I've heard of this too. People are bloody idiots! 



cnycharles said:


> 'milk does a body good!'



Breast milk does anyway.


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## keithrs (Dec 10, 2011)

I was rises on soy milk.... not because my parents wanted too but because my stomach could not handle cows milk when I was little. 

Anyways, How did we go from water structure to milk?


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## Lanmark (Dec 10, 2011)

keithrs said:


> I was rises on soy milk.... not because my parents wanted too but because my stomach could not handle cows milk when I was little.


Breast milk is always best if the infant can tolerate it. Plain cow's milk does not supply safe and adequate nutrition for infants under the age of one year. Infant formulas are the only truly safe alternatives to breast milk for the first year of life. Infant formulas based on goats' milk should not be used for infants under the age of 4 months. This is because the proteins in goats' milk are more concentrated than those in cow's milk, and an infant can become seriously ill if the goats' milk formula is not properly diluted.

Regular soy milk from a carton does not supply adequate nutrition for infants. Soy infant formula does. There's a HUGE difference between the two products! Know the difference and never attempt to nourish an infant with regular soy milk from a carton!

Regular soy milk from a carton may be be an acceptable beverage for young children who are no longer bottle feeding and are eating an otherwise balanced diet. Parents should be aware that fat levels in regular soy milk are only half of fat levels found in whole cow's milk and may not be adequate for children under the age of 2 years. The calcium in soy milk is less easily absorbed than the calcium found in whole cow's milk, and protein levels found in soy milk may not be adequate for young children. Consult your pediatrician.

Rice milk is absolutely not recommended for children under the age of 4.5 years. :wink:



keithrs said:


> Anyways, How did we go from water structure to milk?


 These things happen sometimes. :rollhappy:

Does anyone feed their slipper orchids milk?


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## Ray (Dec 10, 2011)

Lanmark said:


> Breast milk is always best...


No doubt.

My mother told me I stopped nursing at two weeks. Maybe that explains why I want to do so now.


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## keithrs (Dec 10, 2011)

Lanmark said:


> Breast milk is always best if the infant can tolerate it. Plain cow's milk does not supply safe and adequate nutrition for infants under the age of one year. Infant formulas are the only truly safe alternatives to breast milk for the first year of life. Infant formulas based on goats' milk should not be used for infants under the age of 4 months. This is because the proteins in goats' milk are more concentrated than those in cow's milk, and an infant can become seriously ill if the goats' milk formula is not properly diluted.
> 
> Regular soy milk from a carton does not supply adequate nutrition for infants. Soy infant formula does. There's a HUGE difference between the two products! Know the difference and never attempt to nourish an infant with regular soy milk from a carton!
> 
> ...




I would of never know..... It kinda hard to get the real stuff when your mom has fak boobies...LOL



> Does anyone feed their slipper orchids milk?



NO, but I do throw yesterday coffee with half and half on the lemon tree....


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## likespaphs (Dec 10, 2011)

keithrs said:


> ...They claim the water that comes from treatment station has a "loose" water structure from the chlorine and what ever else is added to the water....



is this where i ask if it does its kegels?


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## cnycharles (Dec 10, 2011)

i've heard of people using milk to shine up leaves before an orchid show, and milk being used to remove viruses and maybe other things on surfaces related to orchids.... but not watering with milk. hey, if it has calcium and magnesium in it, then maybe that's the answer! (water/fertilize with powdered milk) 
.. I think I'd heard years ago of people raising champion pumpkins by somehow injecting milk into the plant stem/vine :rollhappy:


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## Shiva (Dec 10, 2011)

How about dry Martini, shaken, not stirred?


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## Marc (Dec 10, 2011)

Maybe flushing water through the pot of a Sorcers Apprentice will endow it with magical properties.


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## Lanmark (Dec 10, 2011)

Ray said:


> My mother told me I stopped nursing at two weeks. Maybe that explains why I want to do so now.



You so naughty! :rollhappy:



keithrs said:


> NO, but I do throw yesterday coffee with half and half on the lemon tree....


I've heard that coffee and/or used coffee grounds are good for both citrus and pineapple plants. I used to amend the soil in my Florida garden with spent coffee grounds when planting pineapple plants...dunno if it ever did any real good though. 



cnycharles said:


> i've heard of people using milk to shine up leaves before an orchid show, and milk being used to remove viruses and maybe other things on surfaces related to orchids.... but not watering with milk. hey, if it has calcium and magnesium in it, then maybe that's the answer! (water/fertilize with powdered milk)
> .. I think I'd heard years ago of people raising champion pumpkins by somehow injecting milk into the plant stem/vine :rollhappy:



I've always wanted to try that milk trick with pumpkins. :clap:

Milk misted on African Violets is supposed to control mildew.

I love it! -- Just think of all these interesting things we might never have discussed if the topic of water structure had not been raised here at Slippertalk by none other than keithrs. Thanks keith!


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## keithrs (Dec 10, 2011)




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## keithrs (Dec 10, 2011)

By the way your welcome!!!!! :clap:


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## ronan (Dec 11, 2011)

Ray said:


> Here's a good link:
> 
> The BunkHouse- Water related pseudoscience.



AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Lanmark (Dec 11, 2011)

Ray said:


> Here's a good link:
> 
> The BunkHouse- Water related pseudoscience.



Wowser! Apparently I've been duped too. One of the carbon cartridges I routinely use as a membrane prefilter for my RO system contains KDF media. KDF media is listed as quackery at the above website. :crazy:


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## cnycharles (Dec 11, 2011)

:rollhappy: I bought an Ion Scalebuster which shoots out biophotons !


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