# Need cypripedium advice



## The Orchid Boy (Feb 8, 2013)

I plan on getting 1 or 2 cypripediums this spring. I'd definitely like to get C. parviflorum v. makasin (or is it v. parviflorum) and maybe C. reginae. I do not want to have to use pots, I'd like to plant them directly in/on the ground. I plan on using old leaf litter that has twigs, leaves, ect. in it and digging a wide, shallow hole and put the cypripediums and leaf litter in that, maybe mix a little sand in. They will be incorporated into some landscaping and will be under dappled to heavy shade depending on the time of day. 

1-What are their moisture requirements? Can I just use the hard well water from outside?

2-If I buy mature plants, how long till establishment and blooming?

3-How long do the blooms last? Does the foliage last all summer or die back?

4-Where is a good place to get both these plants, mature ones? I've checked a few places but a lot seem to be out of stock. I'd prefer them both to be from same place to avoid double shooing costs if I get both. 

Thanks!


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## Dido (Feb 8, 2013)

I would not use sand to much for the parviflorum, leaf and compost out of it sounds not to bad. I use high content of perlite and make big holes and mix it with the natural soil. Reginae will tolerat nearly all soil if the ground will be not heavy. There are good planting instructions on youtube from Frosch, at least not bad. I would only recommend sand for pot or for Kentuckyense. 
Reginae like to be wet but not waterlogged all growing season long. 
Parviflorum a little less. The leaves will stay the hole year under good conditions and go back in fall some kinds even stopp at frost. 
If you buy big plants they could flower in the first year, 
Fertilize them like your Paph....
Reginae blooms last the longest time in my feeling, but nearly all are shorter then Paph blooms. 
I would recommend to buy at ron, as he has good plants for sale. 
He is a member here looks at vendors, 
Gardenatposthill.com if I am correct.


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## eggshells (Feb 8, 2013)

John M. reccommended HP promix. That is what I used on mine.

Check out his link: 

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21147


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## Ray (Feb 8, 2013)

How about for pot culture, specifically reginae, as I have a Minnesota rescue plant currently in the fridge.


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## cnycharles (Feb 8, 2013)

you should find out specifically, which species or variety it is if it's 'yellow ladyslipper'. the standard yellow ladyslipper which is c. parviflorum var. pubescens is pretty forgiving about what you put it in though there must be some moisture there. c parviflorum var. makasin likes to grow here mostly in black muck, always wet. it is the 'northern small yellow ladyslipper'. c parviflorum var parviflorum is the 'southern small yellow ladyslipper', and it grows in relatively drier areas than either of the two previous ones. both makasin and parviflorum varieties have smaller flowers and generally smaller plants. from what i've read and seen (not a whole lot, admittedly) var. parviflorum likes more southern neutral to acidic, sandyish soil, and not the 'upstate ny clay' and such that has material from glaciated limestone. a 'standard' yellow or kentuckiense are your best bets for yellows

if I were you, I wouldn't get a makasin variety unless your spot is wet or moist all the time, without your help. if not, you likely would need to make a 'bog garden' that holds water and create the proper soil for it


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## NYEric (Feb 8, 2013)

He lives in USA; I don't know if we have "promix" here? 
I would do them in pot in the ground, maybe even in a s/h pot to keep moisture; unless you are planting them in your backyard bog.


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## cnycharles (Feb 8, 2013)

yes, promix is very common potting soil you can buy by the bale (peat, perlite etc)


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## NYEric (Feb 8, 2013)

Common for commercial grower?


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## Linus_Cello (Feb 8, 2013)

Yes, Gardens at Post Hill is great. They do sell media for outdoor in the ground planting: http://www.gardensatposthill.com/website/StoreSupplies.htm

(I'm going to try this year using clay pots for additional evapotranspiration; with the really hot summers we had, some of my cyps weren't happy; for these, I intend to use dehumidifier water to cut down on salt buildup, along with any other rainwater I collect).

Another vendor: 
http://www.hillsidenursery.biz/cypripedium-orchids/index.php
http://greatlakesorchids.com/store/


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## cnycharles (Feb 8, 2013)

i'm sure you can get promix and most of the garden centers (well except places like walmart etc), and through any catalog that sells media, though it would be expensive to ship. actually it's pro-mix, and you can get different formulations of it. I just googled lowes and pro-mix and got lots of hits

most garden centers that sell their own plants (and use a lot of soil) commonly buy it to use, and often would have it for sale, also though may need to ask


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## NYEric (Feb 8, 2013)

OB, (Sorry I can't remember your name ) in answer to your questions, pure water supplemented w/ calcium for the reginae. and yes the ones I posted from my trip w/ Charles 2 years ago were growing totally wet. From experience I try not to buy any with less than 3-5 years growth. The blooms should last a few weeks, depending on the temps, insect damage, etc. If you live where there are squirels or deer, expect them to gravitate to the cyps.  The foliage will last and die down as the winter comes. Gardens at Post Hill is a good source. If you have a hard time reaching them let me know.


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## NYEric (Feb 8, 2013)

NO garden centers where I live.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Feb 8, 2013)

As already mentioned, check out Ron's site for cultural advice (and plants), as well as Spangle Creek's photo page (it focuses on seedling care, but the same ideas can be used for adults). In your climate you will need to be sure plants don't dry out in the depths of summer, especially during drought.

Gardens at Post Hill

Spangle Creek Labs


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## Erythrone (Feb 8, 2013)

NYEric said:


> NO garden centers where I live.




Eric if you want Pro mix you can easily buy it when you come in Montreal (I am pretty sure Pepiniere Jasmin sell this product).


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## cnycharles (Feb 8, 2013)

Erythrone said:


> Eric if you want Pro mix you can easily buy it when you come in Montreal (I am pretty sure Pepiniere Jasmin sell this product).



possibly, but how would you explain to border patrol what the big bale of organic material is in the back seat/trunk? :rollhappy: 
(eric explaining; "really, it's just potting material...")


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## NYEric (Feb 8, 2013)

I can picture it now. Border agent- "Oh, problems with _you_ again! We think you need a little cavity search disincentive!! Step this way!"


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## The Orchid Boy (Feb 8, 2013)

Thanks for all the tips. Maybe the puebescens variety (you said it was more drought tolerant, right?) would be best. I definitely don't want a bog plant. Don't think I should get the reginae either. 

I really wanted a cypripedium that is native to Nebraska. I know some C. candidum used to grow just a few miles from us, I think the zoo and the local orchid society recurs a lot of the plants and many did well and survived, there's a few articles about it. 

How hard is C. candidum? I've heard that it likes more sun, maybe even full sun, and can tolerate drought fairly well. I have a different spot I could put the candidum, in a garden. It has a dwarf tree in the middle if I need to plant it in more shade. And it grows in this soil. The C. parviflorum in NE live in northeast NE by the Missouri river in the Ponca county area.


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## cnycharles (Feb 9, 2013)

places where candidum grows in ny are in wet crunchy black muck, very calcareous. it may grow in the soil near you, but you would need to duplicate a spot like south of the eastern great lakes where candidum used to abound; there is water there, it's just down below where it keeps everything cool and damp. when the water table drops in those areas, you don't see the plants/flowers. I don't know exactly what their survival is like in cases like that, but i'm sure that there must be very large colonies and only parts of them survive. I guess there still are some colonies in very low-lying areas near the great lakes where they thrive that aren't right next to the lake, but the water from the lake is in the ground very close to the plants

long story short, you would have to have some kind of water underneath that would keep things cool... otherwise the full sun thing which they do need, mostly, would cook them (or knock them back quite a bit). I have seen them growing in a shadier spot that got filtered sun, but the flower spike was very thin and stretched out

the pubescens though it can be in places that don't look wet, have a fair amount of shade and there is either adequate moisture all the time (not dry) or ground water running not far underneath to cool and keep from drying out


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## Clark (Feb 9, 2013)

I bought my Promix in Piscataway, NJ. 
http://www.whmilikowski.com/products.html
Page 56.

Call first to see if in stock.


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## The Orchid Boy (Feb 9, 2013)

So what would some good choices for the most drought tolerant cyps? Or just need it moist but not wet? Like the moisture requirements of a fern or hosta. (?)


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## Erythrone (Feb 9, 2013)

cnycharles said:


> possibly, but how would you explain to border patrol what the big bale of organic material is in the back seat/trunk? :rollhappy:
> (eric explaining; "really, it's just potting material...")



sorry if I said something stupid. I was only trying to help.


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## Dido (Feb 9, 2013)

I still would recommend to start with reginae, 
it is very tolerant to nearly any soil if it is not heavy, it was my first one I bought after I had seen Acaule in the wild some years back. 
At this time I only planted them in a soil where you would think they are killed, but she still grows. Never a beauty but still there. 
Easiest is to start with hybrids like Ulla


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## KyushuCalanthe (Feb 9, 2013)

The Orchid Boy said:


> So what would some good choices for the most drought tolerant cyps? Or just need it moist but not wet? Like the moisture requirements of a fern or hosta. (?)



Hey Orchid Boy, yup, you nailed it with the last bit - moist, but not wet. It is true that some Cyps can be found in bogs (reginae being the most consistent one in that regard), but that is more likely a function of cooling in summer rather than moisture requirements. Moist, not wet, year round is the best approach.

So, there are no real "drought tolerant" species. C. acaule and C. fasciculatum are perhaps the most subject to dry environments in the peak of summer in some locations, but they certainly don't prefer that treatment. Also, as Charles said, many wild populations can have subsurface water keeping them cool and moist in summer's heat even though this may not be visible from above. For example, in the west C. montanum is found in places that look really dry in summer but are in fact moist from subterranean water.

If you want to try species, then I'd go for C. parviflorum v. parviflorum, C. parviflorum v. pubescens, or the natural hybrid of C. parviflorum v. parviflorum and C. candidum - C. x andrewsii. All are good growers, with the latter being very vigorous. C. reginae is better in a slightly cooler climate, though I think you could grow them there successfully as well. As Christoph said though, some of the hybrids are better starting points since they are often more vigorous than species. I highly recommend C. Aki, C. Gisela, and C. Sabine. C. Gisela in particular is vigorous and tolerant - perhaps the most robust hybrid Cyp so far.

Check out Hillside Nursery in Massachusetts - nice plants at a reasonable price and a good selection.


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## cnycharles (Feb 9, 2013)

Erythrone said:


> sorry if I said something stupid. I was only trying to help.



oh, no; please forgive me if I seemed to be insulting to you. it was a good idea in general; it was just that I couldn't resist poking fun at eric for his former 'adventures in border patrol', and that he might get extra attention with something like that in his car. I had no judgmental thought about your idea, and please feel free to let me know if in the future I move too quickly at trying to be funny, but insult someone else in the process


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## KyushuCalanthe (Feb 9, 2013)

*It's not my "pot"*

Well, in the spirit of joviality, something that is needed desperately in this increasingly serious world, I summit that if you are stopped at any boarder crossing and they want to search your possessions or person, you should *NEVER* use the word "pot" in *ANY* form! :rollhappy:


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## The Orchid Boy (Feb 9, 2013)

One of my relatives found that if he packs his car full of stuff (and I mean packed to the max) and hands his keys over to the border agents and goes and lays on the grass and closes his eyes and acts like he doesn't even care, most of the time they open the car, see tons of stuff, talk for 10 minutes, and then send him on his way without really checking anything.


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## cnycharles (Feb 9, 2013)

sometimes that works. 

one gentleman from the native orchid conference wanted to see some orchids in ontario so I gave him directions, and he went up into canada near watertown and then later that evening came back down someplace over near vermont; when the border people asked him what he had been doing up there he just admitted that he was taking pictures of native orchids or wildflowers. his car was pretty full, but they made him take 'everything' out. 

the last time I went up to that spot when I came back down the same crossing, they just wanted to hear me talk to see if I was a native or not; once they heard that upstate twang or whatever they waved me on


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## NYEric (Feb 10, 2013)

Erythrone said:


> sorry if I said something stupid. I was only trying to help.





The Orchid Boy said:


> ...most of the time they open the car, see tons of stuff, talk for 10 minutes, and then send him on his way without really checking anything.



Don't worry, I'm already on "the List"!


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Feb 10, 2013)

I would say acaule is very drought tolerant. I water my own acaule's when they go for a few weeks without rain, but I've observed the wild ones a few blocks away do fine with no rain whatsoever between late July and mid-September. They'd even bloom the next year.


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## Rick (Feb 10, 2013)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> I would say acaule is very drought tolerant. I water my own acaule's when they go for a few weeks without rain, but I've observed the wild ones a few blocks away do fine with no rain whatsoever between late July and mid-September. They'd even bloom the next year.



Then they should grow in the Arizona deserts??

"Drought tolerant" is a pretty subjective term to use about describing watering rates.

The worst drought/tempts ever east of the Mississippi are nothing like the droughts you can see around Texas, Oklahoma and westward.

Orchid Boy. I suggest you get hold of a copy of John Tullock's book 'Growing Hardy Orchids'. He has cookbook instructions on growing lots of native orchids (and much of the advice is consistent with what folk on this site are already telling you).


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Feb 10, 2013)

If the deserts had shade....keep in mind that these are growing in oak woods, although in nearly pure sand. Obviously, its not dry year round......spring and fall can be very damp, sometimes very rainy. But summers can be very dry out on the North Fork, which is why the wine industry started there. Most years, there are a few rains during the summer, but its easy to go a month without anything more than a sprinkle. The summer of 1995 saw no rain at all between mid-July and mid-Sept. Ended up with a major fire in the pine barrens late August that took days to put out. I couldn't use my hose, as salt water had intruded into my well. C. acaule did fine, though....and it was a great wine year!


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## Rick (Feb 10, 2013)

I get your point Eric.

But keep in mind that the total average rainfall in the SW deserts is still less than the total rainfall of a drought year in NY. It not just a matter of shade. The difference in total rainfall is the difference why there is cactus and joshua trees instead of oak forests in the desert SW.

There are places in Southern Ca that used to support oak forests on 15 or less inches of rain annually, but mature tree density in even the best of times was nothing like an Eastern hardwood forest, and average soil moisture is/was still inadequate to support any Cyps.

There are some Cyp species at elevation in pine forests in middle/northern Ca, but rainfall is 2-3 or more times higher than the lower elevations.


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## The Orchid Boy (Mar 18, 2013)

Finally ordered some C. parviflorum v. puebescens and some C. reginae. I want a small grouping of each. How far away should I plant them? The parviflorum will be in one group and the reginae will be in a totally different grouping.


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## cnycharles (Mar 18, 2013)

depends on if you are going to amend your soil for each one; with something different or the same. 

if they (the different species) were near, that would help if you needed to adjust moisture frequently. they aren't going to grow sideways to any huge degree. in one spot in central ny, they grow in a kettle fen almost on top of each other (the two different species), and two clumps are four feet apart (in wet black muck, slowly flowing water from a spring). 

they will emerge and flower at different times (the two different species), so if they are together you will see flowers in just about the same area, but if you ever want to divide or move one, if they (two different species populations) are together it may be impossible to tell which is which and not damage another or get the wrong one. 

so, near but not on top of each other might be best. of course it also depends on where your sunlight/shade is. 
if they (different species groups) are going to be 'totally separate' then someplace generally nearby for ease of care might be best (they don't have to be separate for culture in general imo, just for your ease of care)

just some thoughts


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## The Orchid Boy (Mar 18, 2013)

Don't quite understand what you are saying but I got 3 of each. I want the three parviflorum in a group and the 3 reginae in a group someplace else. I want the plants in the 2 groups close but not on top of each other lime you said. I will ammend the soil however much I need to.


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## cnycharles (Mar 18, 2013)

are you asking whether or not the two species groups should be close or far, or the individual plants/rhizomes in each group should be close or far?


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## The Orchid Boy (Mar 21, 2013)

I am asking whether the individual plants/rhizomes should be close or far in each group.


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## NYEric (Mar 21, 2013)

That's your choice. If they are closer they will act like a community and also shade each other. The problem is if there is something wrong with your culture or something wants to eat them they are all in the same kettle! BTW, I hope your understand that they, especially the reginae, like to be WET!!


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## The Orchid Boy (Mar 21, 2013)

NYEric said:


> That's your choice. If they are closer they will act like a community and also shade each other. The problem is if there is something wrong with your culture or something wants to eat them they are all in the same kettle! BTW, I hope your understand that they, especially the reginae, like to be WET!!



Yes, I do understand that they like to be WET. I have way too much free time in summer, so caring for them and watering them won't be a problem.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Mar 21, 2013)

I'd actually advise against them being actually wet at the roots, evenly moist at all times is sufficient, and much safer. It is not necessary to mimic conditions of Cyp habitats, especially the swamp growing species.

If grown well Cyps can be in pretty crowded conditions, at least in the short term. A lot depends on how much the roots can run - plenty of good compost means good growth. In general is is best to "overpot" Cyps - literally, if in pots, and also when designing a bed - bigger is better.


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## The Orchid Boy (Mar 22, 2013)

Thanks for the input Eric and Tom and everyone else.

The 3 C. pubescens arrived today! I put them in the fridge for now. Would it be good to start them in pots now before putting them outside or just plant the rootstock outside when weather is warmer?


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## KyushuCalanthe (Mar 22, 2013)

The Orchid Boy said:


> Thanks for the input Eric and Tom and everyone else.
> 
> The 3 C. pubescens arrived today! I put them in the fridge for now. Would it be good to start them in pots now before putting them outside or just plant the rootstock outside when weather is warmer?



As long as the buds have not started to expand and elongate, you can plant them out safely. If they are green in color and "looking leafy"  they are already growing and have to be planted out immediately. Avoid potting them and then planting them later in the year. Better just to grow them either in the ground or in pots for the entire season. In my experience Cyps sent in the spring months often lose their flower buds for that season, so you may not see any flowers this year, or they may be distorted. No worries though - the plants themselves should be fine.


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## The Orchid Boy (Mar 25, 2013)

I'll keep them in the fridge for now until it is just a little nicer outside. The little bud/eye I saw was still very small and whiteish and not growing at all. Could I open the bag and take them out and look them over a little or should I leave them undisturbed in the bag 'till planting time?


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## NYEric (Mar 25, 2013)

DON'T open them. You can introduce an air-borne fungus and rot them in the fridge.


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## The Orchid Boy (Mar 25, 2013)

The bag they were packed in with loose, fluffy soil or something, was not sealed. The one end of the bag was just tucked under one side sitting in the box. I sealed it with a twist-tie though before I put it them in the fridge.


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## The Orchid Boy (Apr 19, 2013)

Still haven't planted them. There has been snow, hail, and cold rain... all in the same day.

Wondering about some other cyps that are fairly easy. I like Cyp. yatabeanum. I talked to Ray at Great Lakes Orchids and he said they're fairly easy and do fine in zone 5. What are some others? I really like Cyp candidum too.


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## Dido (Apr 20, 2013)

the ones you mention are not easy... at least I would say. 

Some hybrids I would call good to grow. 

Would recommend to try it with this first ones, and then go for more.


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## Linus_Cello (Apr 21, 2013)

Start with cyp parviflorum for species, or Gisella for hybrids.


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