# Paph. delanatii Bonsai



## Ricky (Jul 27, 2011)

I have a great success in creating the smallest delanatii plant ever. :drool:

Flower and staminode has the normal size and shape:











Taking a quick look the whole plant seems to be normal:





But a closer look at the plant shows us, that the leaves are getting shorter every shoot. The leaf length of the oldest shoot is about 15 cm, the actual shoot has leafs with only 4 cm.





The pot is full of roots.

*The question is: how I did it ???*


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## Brian Monk (Jul 27, 2011)

Hope is doesn't die after this blooming.


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## Ricky (Jul 27, 2011)

Brian Monk said:


> Hope is doesn't die after this blooming.



Noooo, the next shoot will flower without any leaves.


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## John M (Jul 27, 2011)

The plant is very yellow and the new growth is blooming before it matured. This is a survival blooming. The plant knows it's in trouble; so, it blooms early to set seeds before it dies. I suspect the pH of the medium is too acid. Cut the spike and repot immediately into fresh mix.

BTW: It's a very beautiful flower. 'Hope you don't lose the plant.


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## Rick (Jul 27, 2011)

This is a prime example of what many of my plants (including my delenatii) were doing before I started supplementing with Epsom salts and/or lime.

Ultimately my theory is that the potting mix and plant are saturated with potassium and preventing the plant from picking up what little Ca and Mg are in the irrigation water (or the fertilizer mix). 

The paphs roots and live moss looks very happy. It wouldn't hurt to purge the old potting mix and replace with new, but If you would like to try an experiment, rather than repot then:

1) stop fertilizing
2) apply some doses of Epsom salts (maybe 1/4 to 1/2 tsp once a week for a few weeks.
3) add a pinch or two of pelletized dolomitic lime as a top dress (EPSOMA makes a good product).

The lime will raise the pH as well as quickly supply some Ca and Mg. The EPSOM salts will supply Mg and help purge K out of the potting mix, and help offset the excess K in the plants tissues.

I completely turned around 2 delenatii without repotting that were doing the exact same thing as yours this way. I have since repotted into sphagnum moss baskets and they continue to look good. http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20133&highlight=delenatii


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## Paphman910 (Jul 27, 2011)

You better repot it soon! Moss growing in the pot is an indication that the pH is low and the medium maybe decaying. Supplement the plant with dolomite lime powder dressing.

I would add the Magnesium Sulphate that Rick mentioned at 1 tablespoon per gallon once a month. I would also add Calcium nitrate at the same rate. 

Your delenatii leaves should stop yellowing!

Paphman910


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## Ernie (Jul 27, 2011)

I agree with the above. Looks like nutrient deficiency and Rick's advice will probably help. 

As far as the flower, I love the dorsal- nice and wide. Many delenatiis have narrow or creased dorsals.


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## biothanasis (Jul 27, 2011)

Nice plant and flower!!! Let's hope for the best...


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## Ricky (Jul 27, 2011)

Paphman910 said:


> Moss growing in the pot is an indication that the pH is low and the medium maybe decaying.



Moss is growing in every pot here in my terrarium, no matter what potting medium I use. And it grows very fast.

And now my question: *Can it be that the compact growth comes from the fact that the plant receives (too) much light?*

I ask because other Paphs in the terrarium (not all) also has a compact grow and they are in different potting media. And I use a fertilizer that still contains Mg and Ca.


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## Paphman910 (Jul 27, 2011)

Ricky said:


> Moss is growing in every pot here in my terrarium, no matter what potting medium I use. And it grows very fast.
> 
> And now my question: *Can it be that the compact growth comes from the fact that the plant receives (too) much light?*
> 
> I ask because other Paphs in the terrarium (not all) also has a compact grow and they are in different potting media. And I use a fertilizer that still contains Mg and Ca.



What are your conditions like? Humidity, temperature, Light intensity?

Paphman910


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## John M (Jul 27, 2011)

I'm struggling to put it into words. Sorry. But, I know that your delenatii is not suffering from bleaching due to high light. If that was the only problem, the new growth would reach a normal mature size before blooming. The plant is suffering from nutrient deficiency. Because of the presence of moss, it obviously is not being kept too dry. So, the only thing left to consider is poor nutrition. Think of corn crops in drought areas that mature and tassle while only 2 feet tall, instead of 8 or 9 feet tall. The stunted crop is too dry; but, the lack of moisture has also created a situation where nutrients cannot be absorbed by the roots and used by the foliage to grow up to full size. In a fight to allow for a next generation, the plants mature at a much smaller size so that they can get on with seed production. That's what your plant is doing. It's colour and small size is telling you that it is starving. *IF* you are feeding it, then, the reason most likely is that the pH is too extreme (usually too low) and/or, your fertilizer does not have the right balance of nutrients for this plant. Repot it and follow the other advice here and it will improve.


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## Rick (Jul 27, 2011)

Ricky said:


> Moss is growing in every pot here in my terrarium, no matter what potting medium I use. And it grows very fast.
> 
> I ask because other Paphs in the terrarium (not all) also has a compact grow and they are in different potting media. And I use a fertilizer that still contains Mg and Ca.



I add moss to fresh pots with new media, and it can grow very well. I think it helps overall.

You need to have more Ca and Mg than the potassium amount in your fertilizer. Without reducing the relative amount of K to your plant it will not be able to pick up the Ca and Mg, because the high amounts of K block the entry of Ca and Mg into the plant. All plants are able to intake K selectively regardles of the relative concentrations in the nutrient solution. It's not passive osmosis. There is also selective uptake by ion exchange in your potting mix that favors monovalent cations over divalent cations.

It's kind of like offering children the choice of vegtables or candy. Most children would prefer an unlimited amount of candy no matter how bad it is for their long term health.


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## paphioboy (Jul 27, 2011)

Afraid I have to agree with everyone else. The plant does not look healthy (blooming from an immature growth is usually a bad sign, except for if the plant was grown in high light).. Nice flower though, hope you save it...


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## SlipperFan (Jul 27, 2011)

The yellowing leaves could be a sign of too much light. But I agree with the others that the plant looks sick and should no be blooming on such small a growth.

Were it mine, I'd certainly repot it, add calcium and magnesium, and place it in lower light, at least until it's healthy again.

This is a beautiful flower -- certainly worth saving.


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## Rick (Jul 27, 2011)

Here's a couple views of one of my delenatii. I got it from Matt Gore I think in 2008. Spring of 2009 is when I started with Epsom salt additions, and it wasn't until it was done blooming this spring (around May 2011) when I repotted into the sphagnum/basket system.







Leaves of blooming size growths are between 5-6" (15cm), and each post bloom growth will develop 1 or 2 new growths each year.

I don't have any before pictures, but this plant really didn't look that much different color wise after the first year in my collection compared to yours Ricky. The epsom salts made a shocking turn around. Secondarily, around sping 2010, I started blending back some of my calcium rich well water into my RO water for regular irrigation. That induced a second wave of improvements.


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## John M (Jul 28, 2011)

Gorgeous plant, Rick!

I started adding Epsom Salts to my fertilizer solution a couple years ago; but, for only February through October. I feed very little from November through January and the hydroponic feed I use already has Mg in it. The Epsom Salts made a HUGE difference in the green look of my plants by the time fall rolled around. Everything looked so much better!

Also, during the period of October through April, I only have R.O. water available to me. From May through September, I can also use water from a nearby stream, which I do for the deep waterings. I water one bench each day with the stream water, which has low levels of disolved minerals in it of course. Then, I mist/spray the entire greenhouse, including the bench that I just thoroughly watered, with the "plain" R.O. water. The thing is: the "plain" R.O. water does have a tiny amount of nutrients in it because I add them to a stock tank. I used to acidify my water until I sealed my concrete storage tank. Now, I don't have to adjust the pH; but, when I started using the pure R.O. water from the tank, which was NOT adding any lime though leaching from the concrete, my plants turned a sickly yellow!!! It was really scary!!! I panicked.....calmed myself down and really gave this all some serious thought. I decided that the untreated concrete tank was helping a bit by leaching lime into the water. I used the R.O. water as a fast enough rate that the water did not get too much lime to cause problems. Plus, when I feed my plants, I make up a small ~10 litre pail of concentrated fertilizer stock, which is almost all used up by the time I'm finished spraying all my plant with the diluted solution, made possible with the use of a Dosmatic fertilizer injector. I couldn't bear to toss out the leftover stock solution (I paid good money for that fertilizer!), which would be about a ~litre or so, each time; so, I was in the habit of tossing the leftover into my 17 gallon, clear stock tank and that turned out to be a good thing. The combination of a bit of lime from the tank and the bit of leftover fert mix being added to my clear stock solution which I used when I was not fertilizing, provided enough "extra" to keep the plants happy.....as long as I also kept up with a regular fertilizing schedule as well.

Once I sealed the concrete tank I also decided to stop adding leftover fertilizer to my clear stock tank....and my plants went yellow at an alarming speed! Of course, the storage tank remains sealed; but now, I never use 100% clear water in the clear stock tank. I always add a bit of fertilizer to it so that the plants never get only 100% pure R.O. water.

When I grew in the basement I also had an R.O. I stored my product water in 17 gallon Rubbermaid garbage pails; but, I always removed a couple gallons and added raw well water back in. The raw well water was high in minerals, especially calcium and my orchids grew like weeds. Eventually, I stopped adding the bit of raw well water to my R.O. water storage pails and my plants turned a sickly yellow. IMHO, pure R.O. is NOT good. It must have small amounts of nutrients added back in.....even if you feed regularly with a good fertilizer. After all, while rain water is very soft, it is not pure water by the time it reaches our storage bins...or the plants in nature for that matter. Thinking that rain water and R.O. water are basically the same thing is a big mistake.


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## Ricky (Jul 28, 2011)

Paphman910 said:


> What are your conditions like? Humidity, temperature, Light intensity?



Humidity: 60-80% rh
Temperature: room temperature (18-30 °C)

Light intensity: my lux meter shows about 7000 lux (~ 700 fc ?). I use fluorescent light (light color 840 + 865) and I´m sure that this cheap lux meter didn´t show the right intensity in this case.

I have some paphs in another terrarium with lower light level and these plants grows in normal size and leaf color.


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## Ernie (Jul 28, 2011)

I have some cursory, observational experience that tells me that plants grown in higher light than they "prefer" will cause lighter leaf color BUT the lighter leaf color is usually due to some nutrient deficiency. This is an observation from a batch of plants of the same breeding style all side by side getting more light than the 'books say' they want, but some got time release fertilizer, some did not by mistake. Those without the TRF became pale which was reversed upon supplementation. All plants were getting dilute fertilizer with overhead waterings. 

The higher light probably speeds up the plant's metabolism causing higher nutrient demand. If it's not satisfied, bleaching occurs. 

As an aside, Lance Birk's Paph Growers Manual shows a Paph delenatii growing in full sun. BUT... The plant is in the middle of a stream/small river, so the temp probably doesn't get too hot, and there is constant moisture, humidity, air movement, root aeration, and nutrient availability. If I put that same plant in full sun in my back yard, it'd probably die. It's the total environment that is making it work, not any one aspect. 

So, Ricky, with the terrarium full of pale, stunted plants, you need to tweak possibly several conditions to get what you "want"? But do one thing at a time until you see response. Then move on or readjust that aspect if the result is negative. Or, if the plants seem to do well over time, maybe keep doing the same things to keep the terrarium from getting crowded.  

Good discussion all!


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## Ricky (Jul 28, 2011)

Ernie said:


> So, Ricky, with the terrarium full of pale, stunted plants, you need to tweak possibly several conditions to get what you "want"? But do one thing at a time until you see response. Then move on or readjust that aspect if the result is negative.



Ernie, I just bought Epson Salt today, that will be the first thing I will change. The delenatii will be repotted after bloom.

Not all plants in my terrarium has pale or stunted leafs:


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## NYEric (Jul 28, 2011)

Very bright! 
I like the mini-del but the plant needs some help. Good Luck. 



John M said:


> When I grew in the basement ..


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## Paphman910 (Jul 28, 2011)

Ricky said:


> Humidity: 60-80% rh
> Temperature: room temperature (18-30 °C)
> 
> Light intensity: my lux meter shows about 7000 lux (~ 700 fc ?). I use fluorescent light (light color 840 + 865) and I´m sure that this cheap lux meter didn´t show the right intensity in this case.
> ...



I don't think your lights caused your Paph delenatii to yellow and shrink in size!

BTW nice collection of orchids!

Paphman910


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## Ernie (Jul 28, 2011)

Ricky said:


> Ernie, I just bought Epson Salt today, that will be the first thing I will change. The delenatii will be repotted after bloom.
> 
> Not all plants in my terrarium has pale or stunted leafs:



My error. I thought I read in one of your posts that this was the case. Apologies. Got a nice pic of the terrarium for us though!


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## Ricky (Jul 28, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Got a nice pic of the terrarium for us though!



Thank you!
I think this one here is the best of my terrariums, with more light but without paphs.


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## Paphman910 (Jul 28, 2011)

Ricky said:


> Thank you!
> I think this one here is the best of my terrariums, with more light but without paphs.



Wow! Beautiful setup! Did you make this setup by hand?

Paphman910


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## Ricky (Jul 28, 2011)

Paphman910 said:


> Did you make this setup by hand?



Oh oh, my english .... what do you mean with that question?


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## Paphman910 (Jul 28, 2011)

Ricky said:


> Oh oh, my english .... what do you mean with that question?



I mean:

Did you build this vivarium or bought it?

Paphman910


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## Ricky (Jul 28, 2011)

Paphman910 said:


> Did you build this vivarium or bought it?



The empty vivarium was build for me by a glazier. I´m too old to cut glass and stick the panes. 
All the other work was done by myself.


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## John M (Jul 28, 2011)

Your terrarium looks very nice and your plants look wonderful. Obviously, you do not have a general, across the board, cultural problem with all your plants, just his one delenatii. The moss on many of the plants is very attractive! Usually, I wouldn't worry about moss growing on top of a delenatii pot because delenatii is the one Parviflorum that likes slightly acidic conditions. However, whatever the issue is with your delenatii, it clearly has an issue of some kind. In my experience growing orchids (over 30 years), such a problem will be resolved by repotting the plant into fresh medium. It's just that simple.

I'd like to say: One thing that I really like about your plants is that they are all so clean. There are no weeds anywhere! I have a large greenhouse and too many plants. Weeds are a constant problem. I do love to see a collection of plants like yours that have no weeds at all! I hope my plants can look so good one day!


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## Ricky (Jul 28, 2011)

John, with weed you mean ferns and other unwanted "guests" ?
Well, they always try to grow in my 2. vivarium because they love the high humidity. Nice work to pick them up. 
But I never found one in my paph vivarium.


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## Rick (Jul 28, 2011)

John M said:


> Gorgeous plant, Rick!
> 
> When I grew in the basement I also had an R.O. I stored my product water in 17 gallon Rubbermaid garbage pails; but, I always removed a couple gallons and added raw well water back in. The raw well water was high in minerals, especially calcium and my orchids grew like weeds. Eventually, I stopped adding the bit of raw well water to my R.O. water storage pails and my plants turned a sickly yellow. IMHO, pure R.O. is NOT good. It must have small amounts of nutrients added back in.....even if you feed regularly with a good fertilizer. After all, while rain water is very soft, it is not pure water by the time it reaches our storage bins...or the plants in nature for that matter. Thinking that rain water and R.O. water are basically the same thing is a big mistake.



Your experiences are very similar to mine John. I also started blending back a small amount of my crusty @%[email protected]# well water into my RO with very nice results over the past year. I don't think there is any particluar micro nutrient that is making the difference, but even with a hardness of only 20-40 ppm there is a constant amount of 8-16 ppm of soluble calcium going to the plants or helping to remove a bit of accumulated K from the potting media.

Recently I took 1/4 tsp of EPSOMA peletized lime and dissolved in RO water and added to my fertilizer mix. Not only would this add another dose of Ca and Mg, but also a dose of bicarbonate to run the pH up a little. It's only been a week now, nothing died, and a few plants got a little greener or poked up the tip of a new leaf. But I'm going to have to actually pull a drainage sample and do this over the long term to see if this method of using lime has any efficacy.

It's true that mixes become acidic over time and RO based (especially with fert added) systems afford no buffering, but mag sulfate (or calcium nitrate) solution is also slightly acid by itself (no OH or HCO3). So by seeing positive results with Epsom salt addition on plants in old (acidic) potting mix doesn't logically conclude that mix pH is the driving factor to the chlorosis conditions we are seeing.

With lime addition you get both the cation additions (Ca/Mg) but buffering anions (OH/HCO3) that raise pH. 

So if we compare the results of adding cal/mag solutions with nitrate/sulfate as the anions to adding cal/mag solutions with bicarbonate as the anion we see very similar improvements indicating that at least for the present pH condition of a potting mix that the cations were more important than the buffering condition (pH) of the mix.


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## Rick (Jul 28, 2011)

I think most of your plants look excelent Ricky:clap::clap:

Especiallly the mounted plants.

In the pic of potted paphs, I see several with some yellow older leaves and generally lighter colors than I am getting on my paphs now. Yes older leaves are more prone to yellow, but I did see the amount of old leaf yellow and drop condition decrease substantially with the shift away from K and increase in Ca/Mg.

In my recent theory on K toxicity I am speculating this may not have as much to do with specific tolerances of paphs, but that we tend to keep them in different potting mixes than other orchids that have a propensity to accumulate K (definitely more so than mounting or inert clay balls).

I have shifted many of my paphs into baskets using sphagnum moss to grow them more like my bulbos and phals. They now recieve a total fertilizer environment much more like the mounted plants and are responding favorabley.


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