# Is it true paph's take 7-10 years before they make 1 st flowers?!?!!!?



## Kat (Jan 14, 2008)

I talked to a proffesional grower today (and everyone know him but I won't mention his name) and he tells me that Phaph's take 7-10 years before I may get a first shoot/bud.
Is this true?
I really can't believe this...


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## Heather (Jan 14, 2008)

Mmm, yeah, at least for the multiflorals. Welcome Kat. whatcha growing? (hopefully not multiflorals!) :rollhappy:


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## goldenrose (Jan 14, 2008)

Some can from the seed or flask stage. One can buy blooming size plants (which means they should bloom within a year).
I should add that the larger the adult plant size, the longer it will normally take to bloom. Smaller the adult plant size, they can be bloooming size in a couple of years.


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## NYEric (Jan 14, 2008)

Depends on what it is.


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## Leo Schordje (Jan 14, 2008)

There are two things that determine how long it takes to bloom a Paph from seed. One is the genetics of the individual paph seedling you have. The second is the skill of the grower. 
. To the first point, if you bought a batch of 25 seedlings, and if you grew them well, in all likelyhood a couple or so seedlings would gallop ahead of the pack and bloom a year or more earlier than the main group of seedlings. Then there would be the main group blooming, then as much as several years later the stragglers would bloom. This is normal. Now when you buy a single Paph seedling, it is hard to know whether you have a 'leader', 'middle of the pack', or a 'straggler'. There is no fixed answer, you just have to grow it and see. Some Paphs, especially the bigger ones are slow growers. It is very normal for growers who use standard growing techniques, for Paphs stonei and rothschildianum to take minimum 5, often 7 or 10 years to mature. Some Paphs such as Paph Maudiae, can be bloomed from seed in as little as 3 years. It all depends on genetics, there are tendancies for certain species & hybrids, but there is no absolute fix time period.
. Second point. If your culture is less than ideal, it will take longer to bloom your Paphs. If your conditions are ideal, you can match or beat the times published in the books or on the forums. I have a Paph Transvaal in bloom today, that I bought as a seedling in 1991. This is the first time it has bloomed for me. I have been watering it for 17 years. It should have bloomed 15 years ago, but several times over the years I would rot roots off, or dry it out too hard, or not give it enough light, or something. I would get it close to blooming size and then screw something up, set it back and have to start over again. Each time it would take 3 or 5 years to get it back to where it was before I made the last mistake. Today it is in bloom because for the last 5 years I have met or exceeded the bare minimums of its needs. And like an idiot, I forgot that AOS Judging was Saturday and I could have shown it. I may be dead of old age before I bloom it this well again. Oh well, I have shown it to a few friends, that counts. 
. So the interplay between your growing conditions and the specific genetics of the seedling you are growing is the reason that you should not put much stock in statements about how long it will take to bloom something. It is guesswork. The plants bloom when mature and happy, however long it takes.


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## NYEric (Jan 14, 2008)

Thanx for the photos Leo oke:


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## Gilda (Jan 14, 2008)

Very well said Leo !! My advice for new paph growers. ..buy mature , healthy plants...any mature healthy paph grows so much better and is easier to care for than a seedling size. *IF *you rot the roots, etc on a paph...unless you have the patience of Job, toss it in the garbage, learn from your mistake ,but start with another mature healthy plant...in my humble opinion it is not worth the years it takes for a sickly plant to recover. 
Leo, my hat is off to you for the patience you had with the Transvaal !:clap:


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## tocarmar (Jan 14, 2008)

Kat,
Yes , it can take 7-10 years before they bloom. Like Leo said & did from experience even longer. Depending on the species, or the hybrid it can take that long to bloom them out, or less, 3-5 for some Maudiaes, & the smaller species (fowliei, primulinum).
Then if you want to go from the start of pollination, for example, I just sent some seed to Troy Meyers & he did the Assays on the seed & flasked them, (93%) for the 1 cross it took 11 months for the seed pod to mature, now I have to wait for it to germinate. Hopefully in 3-6 weeks. Then, after they germinate I can receive the seedlings in about 60-75 WEEKS. With this cross (primulinum var. flavum x charlesworthii) it should bloom in about 5 years + or - a year or so.

Tom


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## Kat (Jan 14, 2008)

WOW.
Hmm. how do I know if I'm buying a young adult plant? I mean I've heard everything from growers so I need to know by looking at them if possible.
Edumcation...


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## tocarmar (Jan 14, 2008)

Kat,
A young adult plant to me is a first bloom seedling. Depending on what species or hybrid it is it could be 1 growth, or multi unbloomed growths.

Tom


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## Kat (Jan 14, 2008)

Got it but when purchasing a new plant how can you tell the age or be close to guessing?
The person selling may tell you it's the first year bloom but it may be the 
19th.


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## paphioboy (Jan 14, 2008)

Kat, a first time blooming plant usually has only 1 'fan' of leaves, with the spike coming out from the center (for Maudiaes, brachys etc..) Multiflorals usually must have several growths before they produce the first spike. In my opinion, if it is the plant's 19th time blooming, then it must be really free-flowering and a large one at that..  Better pick it up at once...


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## NYEric (Jan 15, 2008)

Yeah, if it's the 19th blooming buy it now. Usually the more mature and established a plant is the bigger it is and the more expensive it is.


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## tocarmar (Jan 15, 2008)

Kat,
A fan or growth only blooms 1 time, so 19th time blooming would be a plant with 19 growths/fans or a really big specimen!!

Tom


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## GaryB (Jan 15, 2008)

Sam Tsui (Orchid Inn) has told me on a couple of occasions that he is able to bloom sanderianums in 4 years from flask.


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## Candace (Jan 15, 2008)

I bloomed out a roth very young, with only one flower and then it promptly died. So, sometimes I'll cut the spike if the plant is small and blooming may stress it out too much. But I echo many of the comments to buy the largest plant you can afford, especially as a newbie. If I'm going to lose a plant, odds are it's a small seedling. If it's a multi-growth plant and one growth rots out, you can still save the other growths. If it's a single growth plant and it rots out, you're usually screwed.


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## Kat (Jan 16, 2008)

tocarmar said:


> Kat,
> A fan or growth only blooms 1 time, so 19th time blooming would be a plant with 19 growths/fans or a really big specimen!!
> 
> Tom



Hmm, you mean that the same plant fan only will sprout one flower then it must grow another plant before it flowers again????
If I have a smaller plant that is all alone in it's pot and it looses its flower through time It may never flower or make itself a partner plant?


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## paphioboy (Jan 17, 2008)

> Hmm, you mean that the same plant fan only will sprout one flower then it must grow another plant before it flowers again????



Yes, Kat. One fan of leaves will only bear 1 spike of flowers, which may carry a single bloom or several, depending on the type of slipper orchid that you have. 



> If I have a smaller plant that is all alone in it's pot and it looses its flower through time It may never flower or make itself a partner plant?



After the flower drops from the spike, that same growth will not flower again. But, it will send out a new shoot from the base of the old fan, which will grow into a new fan and flowers when it matures. I suppose that is what you meant by partner plant  so the more growths a paph or phrag has, the more flowers it will give you when it blooms...


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## NYEric (Jan 17, 2008)

Almost all orchids either grow new "partner plants" *or* new spikes. I've seen orchids that are over 100 Y.O. All it takes is good genes and good culture.


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## Leo Schordje (Jan 23, 2008)

*after 17 years -it finally bloomed*

I have finally taken the time to catch up a bit with photos. Here is a picture of the Paph Transvaal that has take me 17 years to bloom for the first time. The reason it has been so slow is that every now and then I would accidentally set the growth back, and it would take years to recover. I finally got 5 or so years in a row of 'good enough' culture in, so it bloomed. It should have or could have bloomed 12 years ago if I did not rot the roots off. 







Heather - can you help? the url is right for the image, what is wrong with the tags?
Leo


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## Candace (Jan 23, 2008)

The tags are fine but the url isn't working.


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## Leo Schordje (Jan 24, 2008)

NYEric said:


> Thanx for the photos Leo oke:



finally, this old dog has 'learnt' a new trick oke:






Thanks Candace - I finnally got it.
Leo


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## Candace (Jan 24, 2008)

Looks great, Leo. I have a couple of similar plants that I've set back and have waited forever for, too.


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## SlipperFan (Jan 24, 2008)

Very lovely -- sweet and hairy!


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## goldenrose (Jan 25, 2008)

Very nice - worth the wait!
although our wait to post the nice pic was so much shorter!


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## Grandma M (Jan 25, 2008)

Beautiful paph, beautiful picture. It was worth a 17 year wait.


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## Jorch (Jan 25, 2008)

wow~ I don't think I'll have the patience to nuture a non-blooming plant for 17 years! Good job Leo, it looks very pretty :clap:

On a side note, anyone can share their experience with blooming parvi primary hybrids from flask? I bought a viet x hang flask out of curiousity (or stupidity, depends on how you see it) for a great price and now I am staring at it thinking "what have i got myself into?"  TIA!


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## Kat (Jan 27, 2008)

Nice blooms!
Now, what did you do to set these back 5 years or so???


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## NYEric (Jan 27, 2008)

Jorch said:


> On a side note, anyone can share their experience with blooming parvi primary hybrids from flask? I bought a viet x hang flask out of curiousity (or stupidity, depends on how you see it) for a great price and now I am staring at it thinking "what have i got myself into?"  TIA!


I can help make things less confusing for you. Put the flask in an envelope an mail to me... :evil:


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## DavidH (Jan 30, 2008)

Parvi hybrids will typically bloom sooner than the parents. I've been able to get Ho Chi Minh blooming in 3 years (one plant from the compot). Right now, I have one 2 year old venustum compot with a single flower (I'm behind getting my compots in individual pots) and a 2 year old victoria-reginae compot with a single flower. Earlier this year I had 2 year old deflasked spicerianums flower (6 of 10 plants that survived deflasking).

However, my bellatulums, armeniacums, and micranthums from flask probably need another 2 years before they're blooming size (based on their current growth rate). They'll be one year out of flask in June.

I gave up on sanderianums from flask. So I bought a 3-growth sanderianum at the WOC last week.

Phrags on the other hand grow like weeds. I did an experiment with phrag Jason Fischer with 120 plants and in May they'll be 2 years out of flask and all are near blooming size or blooming size (but lazy me still has them in compots). They should've been in individual pots a year ago so they would flower this spring, but I've caused them to delay a year due to my lack of timely care.


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## NYEric (Jan 30, 2008)

DavidH said:


> Phrags on the other hand grow like weeds. I did an experiment with phrag Jason Fischer with 120 plants and in May they'll be 2 years out of flask and all are near blooming size or blooming size (but lazy me still has them in compots). They should've been in individual pots a year ago so they would flower this spring, but I've caused them to delay a year due to my lack of timely care.



"Let my people go" _Moses_


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## Orchidzrule (Apr 12, 2009)

Leo, your Transvaal is impressive. Even more impressive is your patience & dedication in (finally) bringing this to bloom! :clap:


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## etex (Dec 2, 2009)

Good info here for newbies! Thought I'd bring it forward. Leo- your paph is amazing!! Worth the wait!!


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## Leo Schordje (Dec 2, 2009)

I have a secret way to develop the patience to grow a plant for 17 years to bloom it. The secret is to have so many plants that you don't notice that one hasn't bloomed. :evil: As soon as I had over 100 orchids, the patience issue stopped being a problem. I now have over 1000 orchids, so it is actually an effort to keep track of one plant. Now a days I only notice the ones that do come into bloom. 

But seriously, for the beginner, start with at least 6 or so different orchids. That way you have a chance of something blooming sooner, and less overall frustration around having nothing in bloom. Also when you have a long spell of no flowers, buy a plant in bloom. Since most orchids are to some degree seasonal, that plant purchased in bloom will likely rebloom at the same time of year the next time it blooms. This way you can build a collection that always has something in bloom. 

BY the way, a little self promotion: I have a presentation I do on building an ever blooming orchid collection, with as few plants as possible. If your local orchid society needs a speaker I am now booking engagements for 2010. My calendar is open anytime after February 2010. 

Thanks
Leo


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## SlipperFan (Dec 2, 2009)

Leo Schordje said:


> BY the way, a little self promotion: I have a presentation I do on building an ever blooming orchid collection, with as few plants as possible.


Oh my! Is there such a thing? i.e., a desire to have as few plants as possible???


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## Leo Schordje (Dec 3, 2009)

SlipperFan said:


> Oh my! Is there such a thing? i.e., a desire to have as few plants as possible???



:rollhappy: I know, who am I to talk that way. The actual example that inspired the talk was my mother's little collection of 16 Phalaenopsis. She has at least 2 or more in bloom at all times, and in the spring she often will have 12 or so in bloom. Really a nice little collection.

It can be done with Paphs or Phrags too.


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## JeanLux (Dec 3, 2009)

Leo Schordje said:


> :rollhappy: ...was my mother's little collection of 16 Phalaenopsis. She has at least 2 or more in bloom at all times, and in the spring she *often will have 12 or so in bloom*. Really a nice little collection....



I am really jealous of those green-thumbed people!!!!  Jean


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## etex (Dec 3, 2009)

Nice secret way, Leo, and good advice for beginners, too!! I like the idea of 4 seasons of blooms. Our society is having our first show in March, I'll bring up your name as a speaker.


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## TyroneGenade (Dec 3, 2009)

Leo Schordje said:


> BY the way, a little self promotion: I have a presentation I do on building an ever blooming orchid collection, with as few plants as possible. If your local orchid society needs a speaker I am now booking engagements for 2010. My calendar is open anytime after February 2010.



Is this presentation packed to go? I doubt you will be in Sunny South Africa any time soon to do a presentation but we, in our society, have many new members who would benefit from such a talk. Is it available in power point and does it come with a script so someone else can present it, or is a U-tube version available?

tt


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## Leo Schordje (Dec 5, 2009)

TyroneGenade said:


> Is this presentation packed to go? I doubt you will be in Sunny South Africa any time soon to do a presentation but we, in our society, have many new members who would benefit from such a talk. Is it available in power point and does it come with a script so someone else can present it, or is a U-tube version available?
> 
> tt


Tyrone, 
That's a good idea, as of the moment I do the talk without a script, I change it up to use what I have in bloom at the moment. But it is a good idea. perhaps over the holidays I will get to writing the article. 
Thanks


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