# semi hydro dabblings



## Ernie (Oct 10, 2008)

Well, I've decided to try a couple things in SH since many of you speak so highly of it. Bought a stash of clear plastic cups, found an acceptable poking device, and will be playing with various media. Started with lava PEBBLES. I know lots of literature says lava ROCKs don't work well, but I found lava pebbles which seem to be about the same size range as Grow In Hydro's HygroStone. I ran a wicking test similar to that described earlier and liked the results. Just put a couple phal keikis in it so far. Since it's only been a couple weeks, no big changes yet. Hope to try slippers in it soon. Will start with some from our personal collection- I see sales issues with LECAs due to added shipping weight and customer unfamiliarity. My parents live in Lexington, so next time I visit them, I'll grab a sack of HygroStone to experiment with. 

-Ernie


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## Candace (Oct 10, 2008)

Good luck, Ernie. Yes, I agree with the added weight & increased mailing expense being a big turn-off for commercial growers. I ship most s/h plants as bareroot as possible now.

I don't think I've seen lava pebbles anywhere. Where did you buy it?


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Oct 10, 2008)

Good luck with SH.....I still play with it a little, but not with slippers. No paph ever did well in it for more than a few months...and even phrags, which I thought would take to it like crazy, hated it. I have 2 phrags left in SH which really seem to love it...they were the only ones. However, I have a phal and a cattleya in it doing very well...I just potted up a Brassia, and I'm willing to experiment some more...but just not with paphs or phrags. Interestingly, I had more success after I stopped following the fertilizing suggestions I was getting...my SH plants get the same amount of fertilizer as their bark grown cousins, no more, ..and plenty of plain water in between. Take care, Eric


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## Ernie (Oct 11, 2008)

Candace said:


> I don't think I've seen lava pebbles anywhere. Where did you buy it?



You save big money, you save big money when you shop... Menards. It's like Home Depot/Lowes, but funner. Rinsed with RO, then mag sulfate/cal nitrate, then RO twice just in case. Didn't want to blame any failure on TDS. 

-Ernie


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## Ron-NY (Oct 11, 2008)

I have been moving all my Phrags to this and they seem to be loving it. The seedlings are in clear cups so I can see the root growth. Even the kovachii X seedlings are seeing many new roots. I have a local source for Hydroton (hydroponic store), so that is what I am using.


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## Roy (Oct 11, 2008)

Ernie, I took 2 pics of my one and only S/H plant today for another purpose.
This is a Phrag Calurum growing in Hydroton. I did post it some time ago not long after I did it. I'm guessing but I think it was around 12 mnths ago. Might be a help to you.


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## Hera (Oct 11, 2008)

My Grouville was in it for about 6 months and I thought it was ding well until I noticed rot begining on the leaves. I removed it and found the roots were rotting and the root ball was reduced by half. I switched it back to a traditional medium and its roots have tripled in three months. Its the one I had questions about growing out of the pot. When I unpotted I was very surprised to see the root growth in such a short period of time. I switched to a bark, hydroton, charcol, and coir mix. The coir is moisture retentive and it has been good for my new Hanne as well. Now my Phals on the other hand have taken to semihydro like ducks to water. The root growth has been impressive and the leaf development is great as well. No spikes yet though. I would think if your going to switch the phrags, the seedlings would be better than a mature plant. The roots will develope in the environment from the start, rather than have to adjust.


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## Candace (Oct 11, 2008)

> You save big money, you save big money when you shop... Menards.



We don't have Menards here. Is there a brand name on the lava pebbles? Could you take a photo of it when you have a second?


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## SlipperFan (Oct 11, 2008)

My experience echoes Eric M's. I had all my Phrags in S/H for a couple of years, but most started deteriorating. Now I have only about 6 that seem to continue to do well in it. Same with Paphs.


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## Ernie (Oct 11, 2008)

Interesting feedback. Keep it coming. Canda-licious, will try to remember to get a brand name off the lava pebbles tomorrow. I hope it works, it's like $3 for a 50 lb bag and have been using it with medium bark for a couple years now instead of or in addition to sponge rock. If not will keep trying things. I love media tinkering. 

-Ernie


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## SlipperFan (Oct 12, 2008)

There was a landscape supply place here that sold some clay-type pebbles that had the name Rockwell something. I use is in semi-hydro and as a medium for things like Dens and Catts that like a lot of air around the roots and not too much moisture. Maybe LittleFrogFarm Rob remembers the name -- he's the one who introduced me to it.


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## Gilda (Oct 17, 2008)

In my humble opinion, I think the reason phrags fail in the clay pellets after seemingly doing well is the buildup of salts/fertilizer. Even with a flushing , the the clay pebbles I think absorb it , so a "flushing" does not rid the excess salts bulid up. I have friends that have terrible leaf tip burn on their phrags even with reg. flushing .


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## SlipperFan (Oct 17, 2008)

Gilda said:


> In my humble opinion, I think the reason phrags fail in the clay pellets after seemingly doing well is the buildup of salts/fertilizer. Even with a flushing , the the clay pebbles I think absorb it , so a "flushing" does not rid the excess salts bulid up. I have friends that have terrible leaf tip burn on their phrags even with reg. flushing .


Hmmm. I use rain water and MSU fertilizer. I do have leaf tip burn on many of my Phrags, even now when I'm not doing them in S\H.


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## Gilda (Oct 17, 2008)

SlipperFan said:


> Hmmm. I use rain water and MSU fertilizer. I do have leaf tip burn on many of my Phrags, even now when I'm not doing them in S\H.



We use our tap water and mine get time release fertilizer (gray balls that Carter & Holmes sell) , with a splash of balanced maybe once a month if that much in the summer.


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## Ray (Oct 18, 2008)

An interesting thought about the buildup, Gilda. Since reading this thread, I have been scratching my head a lot and wondering why folks have problems over time, while I do not (I have paphs that have been repotted for as long as 8 years at this point and they are fine).

In my experimenting, I have found that the absorption/release hysteresis of various sources of LECA varies all over the map, and that can affect mineral buildup, but that's not alone, as allowing the medium to dry out results in a faster buildup, too. I'm sure there are other factors, as well.

Dot, how strong are you mixing up the MSU? I water with it at 100-125 ppm N in RO always, and I am seeing no burning issues, whether in S/H or not.


I'd like to make an editorial comment about Slippertalk and its participants: Unlike pretty much any other forum, most folks here seem to be more focused on delving into-, and really understanding what about their orchid culture works or doesn't, incorporating scientific and logical analyses into the discussion, rather than simply stating anecdotal evidence as fact, which isn't very helpful. Plus, there seems to be a better understanding of the basic fact that what works for one may not for another, due to any number of differences in the specific aspects of their conditions and culture, and a willingness to experiment, rather than taking one person's view and assuming it should work for them.

Too bad there isn't an award for that. it would reside here.


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## Gilda (Oct 18, 2008)

Ray said:


> allowing the medium to dry out results in a faster buildup, too.
> .



My thoughts also, Ray...the growers I know with severe leaf tip burn on their phrags only water enough to top off the reservoir, and they do allow them to go almost dry . I think phrags are more sensitive to these conditions than paphs.


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## SlipperFan (Oct 18, 2008)

Ray said:


> Dot, how strong are you mixing up the MSU? I water with it at 100-125 ppm N in RO always, and I am seeing no burning issues, whether in S/H or not.


Ray, I'm using the rain/RO fertilizer at the same rate as you, with rain water. I don't get leaf tip burn on my Paphs, and not all of my Phrags, either. Just some of them. But it seems like, when it starts, it's impossible to stop. I thought maybe it was a lack of humidity, but I really have no idea.

Pretty soon, I'll be using my well water with the tap water formula. My well water is high in calcium and iron, otherwise, very negligible salts.


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## paphreek (Oct 18, 2008)

Ernie said:


> Interesting feedback. Keep it coming. Canda-licious, will try to remember to get a brand name off the lava pebbles tomorrow. I hope it works, it's like $3 for a 50 lb bag and have been using it with medium bark for a couple years now instead of or in addition to sponge rock. If not will keep trying things. I love media tinkering.
> 
> -Ernie



I'll have to look for these lava pebbles as it's getting harder to find good sized sponge rock and sponge rock has got to rough on the lungs. I always rinse it to keep the dust down, but just pouring it out of the bag throws up a lot of dust. 

My two cents on s/h: I've had uneven results from its use, but I attribute that more to my own watering regimen, which tends to leave plants a little dryer than average. My Phrag PEC did extremely well in S/H for several years, but now has begun to show leaf tip burn, most likely for the reasons noted above. I always filled the pot to the top before letting it drain, but only watered once a week, which probably allowed the media to dry out too much, thus allowing salt build up.


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## MoreWater (Oct 18, 2008)

paphreek said:


> ...and sponge rock has got to rough on the lungs. I always rinse it to keep the dust down, but just pouring it out of the bag throws up a lot of dust.



I first put the bag in a bucket (in case the bag leaks), then cut open a small hole in the top of the bag and pour water into it. When nice and wet, the whole bag gets poured through a sieve. No dust. You might try it, 
although I guess this isn't practical with larger quantities. 

Another trick if you don't want to use the whole bag. Cut a small hole in the corner to pour the spongerock out into a bucket. At the same time, take a sprayer and spray it down as you pour the stuff out. Or cover the bucket with a damp towel and pour under it. 


I'm convinced that the reason s/h doesn't work for me is that I don't flush the medium, and yes, I never water frequently enough. I still have some catts in diatomite, and they seem to deal with the buildup better. (I do flush it once or twice a year... ) But no more phrags in s/h for me.... This is why I'm hesitant to recommend s/h to fellow xerophytes.


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## Ernie (Oct 24, 2008)

Candace said:


> We don't have Menards here. Is there a brand name on the lava pebbles? Could you take a photo of it when you have a second?



Brand is "American Countryside". Took some pix yesterday- will post if/when I get a chance. The Phals are doing great. One is spiking and I see new root growth. 

-Ernie


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## Ernie (Mar 12, 2009)

Okay, it's been a while and I'm still likin' this SH stuff. I can have my two year old son water and he can't mess up... unless the holes are aiming onto the floor... "Look dad, your flowers pee too!" My wife does okay with it too.  Seeing roots on the sec Barbata hybrids and Coryos that went into lava pebbles finally and the phals are going absolutely apes#$% in lava pebbles. The results with HygroStone are good too, but it dries out very slowly in pots over about 20 oz in my conditions and looks like phals don't send their roots down as deep into it as they do in lava pebbles. NOT TO SAY I DON'T LIKE THE HYGROSTONE! It has its applications! One just has to understand and adapt to limitations. Ray put it very well above I think. Using ungraded HygroStone in smaller pots where the lava pebbles are too big and using it in shallower pots for instance. It works well in our less humid areas (windowsills at work and home for instance). Grading it for larger pots would help too. So would using a shallower reservoir (holes closer to the pot bottoms). We had some pretty sad looking phals that have made a startling recovery in SH, BUT they probably would have perked up even if we repotted them into the same bark mix blend they were in. So... we'll keep watching to see how they do. Tips here to prevent salt buildup etc have been very useful. Namely, not letting them get bone dry (to keep excess salts in solution instead of crusting up the rocks) and watering to the tops of the pots each time. Not a single plant has gone backwards in health since potting into SH... Stay tuned. Cheers! 

-Ernie


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## NYEric (Mar 12, 2009)

Thanx for the info.


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## SlipperFan (Mar 12, 2009)

I'm staying tuned.


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## terryros (Mar 12, 2009)

I have 23 Paphs (mostly seedlings or first bloomers) and 12 Phrags (seedlings/first bloomers) in Hydroton, many for almost a year, that I grow indoors under fluorescent lights. I have lost 2 small Paph seedlings to rot about a year ago. I have bloomed 8 Paphs for their first bloom and 5 Phrags. Right now, everything looks healthy and is growing pretty well. For me in my environment, I have found that I need a labor intensive approach which is that I water almost every day with RO water containing Green Jungle fertilizer in an amount that comes out to about 125 ppm N. I use azalea pots with plenty of holes on the bottom and each pot sits elevated a little in a plastic saucer. I water from the top so that there is about 1/2 inch of water in the saucer when I am done, just barely covering the bottom holes. The roots are therefore getting fresh solution vert frequently. The fluid evaporates a good amount by the next watering. I do this because I want the roots to receive constant moisture but I don't want things to be so wet that I will get rot. This makes sure there is lots of air at the roots most of the time. I also have found that I have a lot less trouble moving all orchids (including Catts and Phals) to Hydroton with this technique. I think my concept is that the use of LECA is not some radical new miracle but just the use of a medium that both holds water but is well draining and doesn't break down, making repotting a lot nicer.

My total collection of orchids is at 98. I probably can't imagine using my procedure with a very large collection because it would take a lot of time and attention to watering. However, with a modest sized collection like mine, particularly if you like to be obsessive and look at each plant on a frequent basis, the process is great!


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## JeanLux (Mar 13, 2009)

very interesting Terryros, your method seems to work pretty well!!! Any pics to show?? Jean


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## T.paph (Mar 13, 2009)

For the last 3 years, I've been growing my Paphs,Phrags and Phals. in s/h (hydroton). It is working well for me if I followed these rules.

- wash the medium very well.
- use as small pots as possible.
- try not to let the old root sitting directy in the water part.
- get them to develop new roots as soon as possible (I try to pot them when they are active. )
- repot agian when I start seeing lots of new roots, also cut off some of the old roots, sometime all them. Put them back in the same pot size. 
- seedlings are responded faster than the mature plants.

Now all my Paphs, Phrags and some Phals are in s/h.


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## terryros (Mar 13, 2009)

I think that T.paph's experience is very similar to my experience. 

I wash the heck (repeatedly) out of the medium for days before I pot with it.

I want the roots constantly seeing fresh water/fertilizer solution so that they are not experiencing changes in pH or salt concentration. Plants that are in a growth phase are better at putting out new roots into the new medium.

I think a humid greenhouse is a different set of circumstances from my in-home plant room which is somewhat drier. This probably leads to my need to water more frequently. I don't want the LECA to dry out or have no fluid in each plant's saucer. In a humid greenhouse you could probably go longer between waterings but you would still want fresh fluid going down through the media on a regular basis.

When I have some algae starting to build up in a saucer, I just replace it with a clean saucer and wash the old ones in bleach solution.

I think the unknown part about growing in LECA is whether there are some few things, in small amounts that are produced by living organisms in organic material. For example, do mosses create amines that are short lived but beneficial for some growth? Do fungi in some media produce symbiotically beneficial products that aren't in any complete fertilizer? I know that at Orchids Limited, they are finding some Phrags that clearly do better growing in diatomite, standing in solution, but that the ones that develop green moss growing on top do even better or that some that have a little bit of bark mixed in do better. These things hint at some additional benefit from other organisms that I am not getting in my conditions. They will get blooms better, faster, and with awards. I just hope my plants will live and bloom. If I buy good plants to start with I should be happy.


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## Elena (Mar 14, 2009)

After reading this thread I put my Phrag Jason Fischer in SH today as an experiment. I figured it would less hassle than a pot with a separate saucer of water.

Here's what it looks like. If something looks like it could be improved on then please let me know


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## Gilda (Mar 14, 2009)

I have had successes and failures with paphs in SH , and do not understand why they all weren't successes. 

For instance , I had Paph Milmanni, that was divisble in 2007, so ech div. went into seperate pots. Same size div, same size pots , same everything ! 

Wondering why some of these paphs are in suspended animation(not growing). I have been unpotting these paphs, and have been shocked and disappointed . The Paph Milmanni divs. , one div had great roots growing right down into the reservoir,no new growths , the other
div. had very little root growth , but had a new little side growth. :sob: The bloom is off the rose with me growing paphs in semi hydro. I am looking for a better mousetrap. Any in home growers care to share your secrets ?

Phals do GREAT for me and I will continue SH for them....at this point I can't recommend SH for paphs even though I have some doing great.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Mar 14, 2009)

Well, my SH experience goes into 2 categories....death, or spectacular growth. At this point, (aside from some losers I am just killing slowly when I should just throw them out) I have 3 plants that are really thriving in SH...1 phrag, 1 catt, and 1 phal....the catt and Phal are the only ones I've tried in SH, the phrag is the only happy one of of many that I tried...but I must say, that while it doesn't always work for me, when it works, it does work! Take care, Eric


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## cnycharles (Mar 14, 2009)

Elena said:


> After reading this thread I put my Phrag Jason Fischer in SH today as an experiment. I figured it would less hassle than a pot with a separate saucer of water.
> 
> Here's what it looks like. If something looks like it could be improved on then please let me know



Hello Elena,
I couldn't quite tell from the picture, but how high up from the bottom are the first set of holes? Ray B. advocates usually having only an inch or so of reservoir on the bottom. Of course other people's results may vary depending on their growing climate


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## Ray (Mar 15, 2009)

A little trick I have considered, but have only employed recently on the suggestion of another grower, is the application of bottom heat when getting plants acclimated to S/H.

I bought an inexpensive 17 watt heater that fits perfectly with a standard nursery tray, and by setting the pots on it, the plants seem to take root in an accelerated fashion.






I have frequently warned people of the evaporative cooling effect of the nice, airy medium, and the negative for phals grown on the cool side, so a horticultural heating pad seems like a good addition for winter months, but it never occurred to me to that it might have broader application.


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## jjkOC (Jun 16, 2011)

I am resurrecting this thread because I am very interested to find out which specific Phrags consistently do well in S/H. Perhaps with a high enough number of responders we might identify those Phrags that will perform well in S/H in a variety of growing conditions/regions?


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## e-spice (Jun 17, 2011)

jjkOC said:


> I am resurrecting this thread because I am very interested to find out which specific Phrags consistently do well in S/H. Perhaps with a high enough number of responders we might identify those Phrags that will perform well in S/H in a variety of growing conditions/regions?



Phrags are my favorites.

I have yet to consistently grow straight besseae well in S/H conditions but besseae hybrids generally do very well for me. Examples would be Don Wimber (besseae x Eric Young), Mem. Dick Clements (besseae x sargentianum), Jason Fischer (besseae x Mem. Dick Clements), Fox Valley Fireball (Rosalie Dixler x Barbara Leann).

The long petaled, caudatum hybrids can do okay if they have longifolium in them. Grande (caudatum x longifolium) and Devil Fire (Grande x warcewiczianum) grow well for me. Long petaled species tend to grow better on the dry side so you need to pair it with something that likes water (like longifolium) to grow them successfully in S/H conditions.

Hope this helps.


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## Ray (Jun 17, 2011)

I'm a pretty bad "orchid dad", as I go through spurts of inattention and spurts of smothering my plants.

I bartered a bunch of pots for an assortment of phrag seedlings from Orchid Babies a few years ago, potted them all into 3.5" S/H pots and basically ignored them. Yeah, they got watered when everything else did, but if the went dry faster, then Oops! they stayed dry for a while. Some of those pots display quite a deposit on the top of the medium as a result. Yet the plants are growing nicely - some have bloomed - and are leaping for the sky. (Many have been moved up in pot size recently, and as I have become "rekindled" in my interest in slippers, they are getting better care now.

Like Geff, there are a lot of besseae hybrids in that group, but I have done well with the straight species, as well. I have not had issues with any phrag I've ever put into S/H.

My paphs, however, make the phrags look like wooses. I usually move them into s/h just after blooming (although they don't seem to care when you do so), and that very next growth is typically good, but not anything significantly different from the prior, "traditional-culture" growth. Subsequent years are a whole different story, and I typically see the new growths being 50%-100% larger than they had been, and get a greater number of new growth per cycle.


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## Ernie (Jun 17, 2011)

Jennifer,

You could grow any phrag in s/h IMO. Green, orange, pink, brown, or otherwise. Ours are all doing great. Of course folks will chime in to the contrary. But that's usually due to differences in all the other variables. Your best bet is to try one or a couple. Now's a great time to repot in general, so go for it! 

Consider this... we "know" in traditional bark culture, that the caudatum types like to grow a little drier than the besseae hybrids. Well, in bark culture, Cattleyas like to go dry briefly before being watered, right? Our Cattleyas in s/h get watered deeply several times a week now (hot, bright weather is upon us) and misted heavily every day and they have never been happier. The Catts are grown just as wet as the paphs, phrags, phals, catasetinae... Even though we're growing wet, it's the vast amount of air available at the roots in s/h that makes the difference IMO. 

It's all a matter of understanding your conditions. Folks growing caudatum-type phrags in big bark might water once a day; someone else in fine bark one every week; and another person in NZ sphag once every other week. In s/h, simply water no later than when the reservoir is nearly (not completely) dry- more often is totally fine, especially in bright, warm weather. When you do water, fill the container to the top, not just to the level of the drainage holes. 

No matter what you choose to do, I think Jim Toomey's signature says something like "be an observant grower..." That's great advice. No two peoples' grow conditions are identical- like our orchid fingerprints. You just have to experiment, have fun, and know when to make changes. I think you'll enjoy s/h. Pick a couple plants and give it a try.

There is TONS of info to get you started and keep you going on Ray's web site. And you might want to get a hold of the spring (Apr May Jun) 2011 Orchid Digest.


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## Rick (Jun 17, 2011)

I agree that there is probably no reason that any phrag species or hybrid cannot be grown SH.

One thing that has improved my results is to add a thin layer of finely chopped
sphagnum on top of the media.

And keep the nutrient levels low (i.e be stingy with fertilizer).


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## Ray (Jun 18, 2011)

Rick said:


> And keep the nutrient levels low (i.e be stingy with fertilizer).



Yep. I have backed off from 125 ppm N to something more like 75, and they seem to be doing quite well. Do keep in mind that like Ernie, I water frequently, so while the concentration may be low, the mass of nutrients to which the plants are exposed is still sufficient.


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## jjkOC (Jun 19, 2011)

Thanks everyone for your replies for this resurrected thread. I have one Psychopsis in S/H, I used the heating pad technique recommended by Ray to help with the transition. It seems to be growing fine, but it's still a young plant and I'll have to wait and see how it matures. 

I water often, not letting the reservoir get more than 1/2 empty and I fill up (in a bucket) the S/H container to the top of the medium with RO water, wait 10 min and then let the excess drain out through the holes. I use rubber bands to seal the holes so that water doesn't drip out of the reservoir when I put the plant back in its place.

I see from Ray and Ernie's experience that many Phrag hybrids/spp can do well in S/H. But, I also wanted to hear from others, who observed some, but not all of their Phrags doing well. Perhaps there's a trend that could be detected?

Well, I am very encouraged to try the remainder of my S/H on a Phrag. and see how that goes. Any other suggestions on easy and compact Phrag hybrids?

Thanks again e-spice, Ernie and Ray for sharing your great experiences!


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## Ray (Jun 19, 2011)

I recommend against filling/waiting/draining.

Watering achieves several things: it provides moisture and nutrition, it draws fresh air down into the medium, it flushes plant wastes and fertilizer residues from the medium, and refreshes the chemistry of the reservoir. Plants emit chemicals into their root environments as normal physiological activities, and emit compensatory ions when absorbing fertilizers, and all of that accumulates in the medium and remaining solution. If you fill rapidly to the top when you water, allowing it to simultaneously drain, you tend to "push" all of that out. If you block the holes and fill, you mix good with bad, and when that drains, you still have a lot of the "bad" in there.

Maybe it's not a huge issue, but to me it just seems to be a better procedure.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jun 20, 2011)

I tried several phrags...all hybrids, but 1 bessea, in SH. In the end, all died or did poorly except for Mt Fallu, which has been repotted into a 1 gal pot. This one thrives in SH.


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## bullsie (Jun 21, 2011)

I've been growing all my Phrags in s/h since I acquired my first in 2008, a Noirmont. I'd been using Dynagro and MSU for well water and all have been doing good. 

Since acquiring some Paphs this water/fertilizing wasn't making the grade so I've gone to spring water and rain water with Dynagro and a dabbling of Epsom salts. This has resulted in accelerated growth by the Phrags. The Phrags are in hydropellets (from Holland). I rinse them in plain water and pot. I do change the medium every other year when the algae gets to be too heavy. So they are not in the original pellets more than two years. 

I have all Phrags, many Catts, some odds and ends of species in s/h presently. I hope to move a few Paphs over to see how they do. Just starting into Paphs I have been hesitant to make too quick a change. For the Catts, I do let them dry out a bit through the winter months, just enough to let the reservoir go dry. Otherwise, all reservoirs are kept full - I will let them go low, even for the Phrags. But watering is a flush technique with water running everywhere. 

The rain water from the roof of the house is the only one I worry about as I live near quite a few power plants. I do try for the spring water as much as possible. Two sources I use are a cistern catch tank and the other is when it bubbles out of the ground - which also includes the little 'bits' that go with it. When it does bubble out of the ground its during rainy weather and field run off trickles along with it. Always a possibility that animal waste makes up some of those bits. How much of an effect then it has been having on the Phrags I cannot say. But am pleased with the results of the water change.

I'm trying some Pleuros now in s/h. So far so good, but still too early to tell. I'd like to one day try a besseae in it also and see how that goes. But, that is a future endeavor!


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## jjkOC (Jun 21, 2011)

Thanks Eric and bullsie for sharing your experiences. It would be great to see how besseae does with your water mixes bullsie. 

I think a few others have mentioned benefit from Magnesium sulfate (Epsom) amendment every so often. I'll have to try this!


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## goldenrose (Jun 23, 2011)

*try, try again ...*

... and you'll succeed! This is one of the Alocasias I got from Ernie, was it just a few weeks ago?











Alocasia nebula 'Imperialis' topside.




underside of leaf.


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## chrismende (Jun 23, 2011)

Ray said:


> I'm a pretty bad "orchid dad", as I go through spurts of inattention and spurts of smothering my plants.
> 
> I bartered a bunch of pots for an assortment of phrag seedlings from Orchid Babies a few years ago, potted them all into 3.5" S/H pots and basically ignored them. Yeah, they got watered when everything else did, but if the went dry faster, then Oops! they stayed dry for a while. Some of those pots display quite a deposit on the top of the medium as a result. Yet the plants are growing nicely - some have bloomed - and are leaping for the sky. (Many have been moved up in pot size recently, and as I have become "rekindled" in my interest in slippers, they are getting better care now.
> 
> ...



Ray, I'd love to see pix of your paphs and phrags in S/H, since you are the source for much of our info (along with Ernie!). Do you have any that show the results of the transplant growth you mention?


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## chrismende (Jun 23, 2011)

Nice plant! Must go to your website, Ernie! And try it in S/H when I get one or two...


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## junglejim (Jun 23, 2011)

I used Grodon Gardening Imports "Potting Pebbles" (the clay balls) for years and realized they didn't wick for phrags. I bought real little ones like tapioca size and phraglings just out of phlasks liked those. I've gone back to regular mix and add peat to the mix. The phraglings like peat added to the mix too. Two big surprises this year . . . in the basement the plants I've gotten from Oak Hill mounted have the nicest root growth of what I grow. . . Secondly, Marathon battles:viking: mealy, just topdress them all, the streptocarpus volunteer to write their eulogies but that should be in another post . . .

Dot, do you still use straight diatomite in clay pots for some phrags? jungle fever


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## Ray (Jun 24, 2011)

chrismende said:


> Ray, I'd love to see pix of your paphs and phrags in S/H, since you are the source for much of our info (along with Ernie!). Do you have any that show the results of the transplant growth you mention?


I suppose I could take some shots of current plants, but have nothing to compare them to, as I didn't take and plant photos earlier. I just might have to do that in the future.


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## Ray (Jun 24, 2011)

I had a discussion with another semi-hydro grower just yesterday, and he told me he never had any success with paphs in S/H. He uses the "Luwassa" or "Leni" pots exclusively. He and I compared notes a bit, and I can only conclude that it's an issue with not flushing the pots.

With the use of my "deli-container" pot design, if you water properly - filling the pot rapidly to the top and letting it drain down to the reservoir level - you flush mineral and plant waste residues from the pot at every watering, and return the "pot chemistry" to your initial solution formulation. With the 3-component-type design, watering is primarily a matter of "topping it up" so the gauge gets to your preferred level, so unless you lift the culture pot out of the outer one and manually flush it periodically, who knows what the chemical environment becomes?

Very early in this thread, Dot mentioned that after about 3 years of S/H growth, she noticed her phrags declining. When she and I met last year, she acknowledged that even using my pot design, she only 'topped up" the reservoir, which obviously doesn't flush the pot.

We know that phrags have "purity issues", but apparently - from what I heard yesterday - the same is true of paphs, but maybe not so extreme.

Whenever I get such a tidbit of info, I like to relate it to traditional culture, to see if I can make some sense out of the observation.

I have expressed before my thoughts that orchid potting media in general have almost no cation exchange capacity - certainly compared to soils where the majority is related to raw clay inclusions - but there is no doubt in my mind that the organic matter in traditional media do provide _some_ CEC (at relatively little as it may be), and the charcoal will adsorb pollutants as well, so probably provides a bit of "protection" to the plant by sequestering the bad stuff - and then we throw it away periodically.

The fired clay pellets have almost zero CEC, so it makes sense that flushing will be more important.

Does that seem logical to you'all?

Another observation: several years ago, I put 300 Oncidium Sharry Baby and 300 Phal. Lemforde White Beauty plants in S/H culture. Half of each got watered with my regular regimen - 2x or 3x/week in summer, maybe once a week in winter - and the other half got watered daily. After 6 months, the daily group was observably larger than the others. My explanation leans on two possible factors: the daily group had the pot chemistry returned to "target" on a more-frequent basis, removing the pollutants, and/or they got more nutrition, considering they got a "meal a day", rather than every few days.


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## Ernie (Jun 24, 2011)

Rose, Lookin' good! Isn't such fast growth refreshing?  Alocasias are pretty constant feeders when it's warm, be sure to fert weakly weekly with them consistently. Slow release stuff works too, ~1/2 tsp for each of those cups should keep them going gangbusters.


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## Ernie (Jun 24, 2011)

I can probably take some pix of some catts and zygopetalinae intergenerics where it's very clear which growths grew up in bark and which in s/h. Will try to put it on the list for the weekend...


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## goldenrose (Jun 24, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Rose, Lookin' good! Isn't such fast growth refreshing?  Alocasias are pretty constant feeders when it's warm, be sure to fert weakly weekly with them consistently. Slow release stuff works too, ~1/2 tsp for each of those cups should keep them going gangbusters.


Definitely refreshing! I'm quite certain the 55 degree winter nights in the GH was my downfall when it came to success with S/H. The second alocasia plug, reginula 'Black Velvet' is not showing roots thru like this one but after knocking the pot over it was one way to find out!  Next step - undirt the other 2!
They're located across from the bog garden so with both being right off the GH, the alocasia will be on the same fert schedule as the orchids, although the slow release sounds good too!


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## Ernie (Jun 24, 2011)

reginula 'Black Velvet' is slower than nebula 'Imperialis', but once reginula starts going, it sends up lots of pups! I forgot the other two you got... lauterbachiana and something? 

One thing about repotting elephant ears- never throw away the old dirt! I always put the old media in another pot for a month or three just to make sure nothing sprouts up, or you can sift through it looking for corms to plant with the mama plant or individually. Dang, even if the plant loses its leaves and gets all nasty, I still dry them out for a week or so then replant. Many times they come back. Crazy things.


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## goldenrose (Jun 24, 2011)

Good memory!!! The other was Hilo Bold. I did it, I unearthed them this morning! Both looked like they were plugs potted up not to long ago, lauterbachiana had a pretty good root system & Hilo has lots of little plantlets around it. 
When I switched the other 2 over I did find 2 corms & potted them up!


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## PaulS (Jul 6, 2011)

Sorry to bump this with another simple question. What CF/EC are people using for their fert solutions? Others have quoted N ppms but that doesn't mean much to me, I'm afraid. I'm very wary of using a solution that is too strong.


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## Ray (Jul 8, 2011)

Paul, the problem when trying to control with EC is that the final reading is controlled by three individual parameters - the water chemistry, the specific fertilizer formulation, and the concentration in which it is used. So unless all three are identical to what you have, someone else's recommendation is of questionable value.

As examples, in the AOS article in which the "MSU Fertilizers" were introduced, they recommended 125 ppm N. To achieve that concentration, the RO formula will give an EC of 1.0 mS/cm (assuming the water itself is 0), while the "Well Water" formula will add 0.85 mS/cm to whatever the water contributes.

I have used the RO formula at 125 ppm N for about 8 years now, but have decided to back off to about 75, as I have increased my watering frequency to about every other day. It's really easy to determine the amount of fertilizer to use - dividing 10 by the %N on the label gives you the teaspoons per gallon for 125 ppm N. Or divide 13 by the %N for ml/liter.


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