# paphiopedilum concolor album



## Hakone (Aug 15, 2011)

from friend (Kunming)


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## quietaustralian (Aug 15, 2011)

Nice sulphurinum.

Regards, Mick


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## W. Beetus (Aug 15, 2011)

Great yellow! I really like this variety.


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## Roth (Aug 15, 2011)

Not from a friend in Kunming, that's a plant from Thailand that went to Germany some years ago (long story). It is concolor album 'Yen' AM/RHT (Royal Horticultural Society of Thailand). I bought last year a division of that one too


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## SlipperFan (Aug 15, 2011)

So what is the difference between album & sulphurinum?


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## NYEric (Aug 15, 2011)

White/Yellow.


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## e-spice (Aug 16, 2011)

Wow - beautiful.


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## quietaustralian (Aug 16, 2011)

SlipperFan said:


> So what is the difference between album & sulphurinum?



Dr Braem's explanation below:

a) alba resp. album means white, and in my opinion should only be used for plants with PURE WHITE flowers
b) sulphurinum ... is yellow ... and if you take it correctly, should only be used for sulphur-yellow flowers
c) flavum ... is also yellow
d) immamculatum ... is generally used for flowers without spots
etc. etc.

Regards, Mick


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## Hakone (Aug 16, 2011)

NYEric said:


> White/Yellow.



Yellow/White oke:


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## Kavanaru (Aug 16, 2011)

quietaustralian said:


> Dr Braem's explanation below:
> 
> a) alba resp. album means white, and in my opinion should only be used for plants with PURE WHITE flowers
> b) sulphurinum ... is yellow ... and if you take it correctly, should only be used for sulphur-yellow flowers
> ...



That's the theory, and should actually be followed when a description is published. However, this is not followed by everybody doing a description of a new variety (regardless of whether taxonomist or not! - many many examples of this). E.g., if I discover a Phrag. bessea with white flowers, and described before anybody else (correctly, according to "the code") as var. coloripunctata, because I had taken LSD the day I saw the flowers, then it is absolutely valid, and there is no way that calling it Phrag bessea var album would be "a valid name".

What I would be interested in is to know what the valid description of concolor var album and concolor var sulphurinum actually say.


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## quietaustralian (Aug 16, 2011)

Kavanaru said:


> That's the theory, and should actually be followed when a description is published. However, this is not followed by everybody doing a description of a new variety (regardless of whether taxonomist or not! - many many examples of this). E.g., if I discover a Phrag. bessea with white flowers, and described before anybody else (correctly, according to "the code") as var. coloripunctata, because I had taken LSD the day I saw the flowers, then it is absolutely valid, and there is no way that calling it Phrag bessea var album would be "a valid name".
> 
> What I would be interested in is to know what the valid description of concolor var album and concolor var sulphurinum actually say.



Yes I agree but as both forms have been published, its seems its a matter of deciding if the bloom is yellow or white.

Olaf added the following:

For the white form
Paphiopedilum concolor (Bateman)Pfitzer forma album (Braem)Braem

For the yellow form
Paphiopedilum concolor (Bateman)Pfitzer forma suphurinum (Rchb.f.)Gruss

Regards, Mick


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## Hakone (Aug 16, 2011)

What for leaves form has Paphiopedilum concolor (Bateman)Pfitzer forma album (Braem)Braem ?

What for leaves form has Paphiopedilum concolor (Bateman)Pfitzer forma suphurinum (Rchb.f.)Gruss ?


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## Kavanaru (Aug 16, 2011)

quietaustralian said:


> Yes I agree but as both forms have been published, its seems its a matter of deciding if the bloom is yellow or white.
> 
> Olaf added the following:
> 
> ...



Thanks, Mick! That was my question, as I do not know the descriptions... I know that both forms has been described, but I have never check for the details...


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## SlipperKing (Aug 16, 2011)

Great flower(s) with three as a kicker!


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## poozcard (Aug 16, 2011)

Roth said:


> Not from a friend in Kunming, that's a plant from Thailand that went to Germany some years ago (long story). It is concolor album 'Yen' AM/RHT (Royal Horticultural Society of Thailand). I bought last year a division of that one too



I am of the same opinion as Roth.
It is 'Yen' AM/RHT.


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## quietaustralian (Aug 16, 2011)

gunny said:


> Paphiopedilum concolor (var. hennisianum?) fma. sulphurinum "Yen AM/RHT"



Gunny posted this pic of "Yen" some time ago. It does look like the clone that Hakone posted.

Regards, Mick


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## Roth (Aug 16, 2011)

Hakone, I don't know why you post pictures from a friend in Kunming, or whatever, all your photos so far came from only one nursery. The same thing you should remember about Guido, he was one of the best friends of that plant's owner (and actually saved his life once but I ll never say how).

By the way, that plant on that photo has a very dirty story behind, I'll not expand in public, but it is clearly 'stolen goods' legally. Let's say someone bought it (another best friend), paid in full (not me, I bought mine from Yen directly), it disappeared from his nursery, thanks to one of his workers, and reappeared later in Germany at his best friend place. Orchids are one thing, I can understand that there are some fanatic collectors, I am one of them, but there are ethic limits. Best friends or gratefulness are things not to be tampered with. 

I respect that German nurseryman for what he is, one of the best collectors of orchids, and a really good grower, he can look very kind too, and be at some point, BUT sometimes he breaks the limits to get more plants. Never stole from your 30 years old friends, no matter what is the matter, and second, when your friend, sponsor, and support dies (a few months ago in Thailand), don't try to go instant to his nursery to buy quickly plants and make good deals. That's basic politeness rules. I will not speak anymore about that subject here.


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## quietaustralian (Aug 16, 2011)

poozcard said:


> I am of the same opinion as Roth.
> It is 'Yen' AM/RHT.



Do you know the dimensions of the bloom when awarded?

Regards and thanks, Mick


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## Hakone (Aug 16, 2011)

Xavier,

I get photos from friend . I don´t care how the photos are made. Some photos are actually photos of French Nursery . Some tales are just a lie. Some plants come from USA . 

Who is Yen ?


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## poozcard (Aug 16, 2011)

There must be a sad story.
There were similar stories in Thailand as well.


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## poozcard (Aug 16, 2011)

quietaustralian said:


> Do you know the dimensions of the bloom when awarded?
> 
> Regards and thanks, Mick



Unfortunately, no.

I am sorry for that.
We were not so good in filing information so most of information was lost.
But the TPC has just been trying to improve it recently.


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## quietaustralian (Aug 16, 2011)

Roth said:


> Hakone, I don't know why you post pictures from a friend in Kunming, or whatever, all your photos so far came from only one nursery. The same thing you should remember about Guido, he was one of the best friends of that plant's owner (and actually saved his life once but I ll never say how).
> 
> By the way, that plant on that photo has a very dirty story behind, I'll not expand in public, but it is clearly 'stolen goods' legally. Let's say someone bought it (another best friend), paid in full (not me, I bought mine from Yen directly), it disappeared from his nursery, thanks to one of his workers, and reappeared later in Germany at his best friend place. Orchids are one thing, I can understand that there are some fanatic collectors, I am one of them, but there are ethic limits. Best friends or gratefulness are things not to be tampered with.
> 
> I respect that German nurseryman for what he is, one of the best collectors of orchids, and a really good grower, he can look very kind too, and be at some point, BUT sometimes he breaks the limits to get more plants. Never stole from your 30 years old friends, no matter what is the matter, and second, when your friend, sponsor, and support dies (a few months ago in Thailand), don't try to go instant to his nursery to buy quickly plants and make good deals. That's basic politeness rules. I will not speak anymore about that subject here.



Its seems that things haven't changed in the last few hundred years of collecting plants. There will always be scandal, mystery, corruption and greed.

Regards, Mick


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## Hakone (Aug 16, 2011)

Xavier,

is today to hot in North Vietnam . If you have any questions about concolor , look at here first. You have to write Thai .

http://www.thaipaphioclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=286&start=100


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## NYEric (Aug 16, 2011)

Hakone said:


> If you have any questions about concolor , look at here first. You have to write Thai .
> 
> http://www.thaipaphioclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=286&start=100



None of the plants shown on the first page of the link are the same type as your original photo. I'm not knowledgable on the subject to make speeches but I think your friend should be discreet if they're sending you photos of plants of questionable origin or possesion. Otherwise, you should be more careful about sharing these interesting photos.


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## Hakone (Aug 16, 2011)

Hello Poozcard ,

What is the kinds of concolor ?


from friend ( Paris)


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## Hakone (Aug 16, 2011)

NYEric said:


> None of the plants shown on the first page of the link are the same type as your original photo. I'm not knowledgable on the subject to make speeches but I think your friend should be discreet if they're sending you photos of plants of questionable origin or possesion. Otherwise, you should be more careful about sharing these interesting photos.



thank you very much NYEric,

mon ami a parfois beaucoup de fantaisie


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## Hakone (Aug 16, 2011)

What is a clone of paphiopedilum concolor album in : Genus Paphiopedilum , Albino Forms , Olaf Gruss , page 52 .


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## poozcard (Aug 16, 2011)

Hakone said:


> Hello Poozcard ,
> 
> What is the kinds of concolor ?
> 
> ...




sorry, i don't know.
concolor is not my fav.


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## paphioboy (Aug 16, 2011)

Interesting comparison of concolor plant morphology in the link.... Shows what variation exists in natural populations...


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## poozcard (Aug 16, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> Interesting comparison of concolor plant morphology in the link.... Shows what variation exists in natural populations...



I have invited the author, piyasann, to attend this topic.
And also Surgery who took previous photos of 'Yen'


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## Hakone (Aug 17, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> Interesting comparison of concolor plant morphology in the link.... Shows what variation exists in natural populations...



correct


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## Hakone (Aug 17, 2011)

poozcard said:


> I have invited the author, piyasann, to attend this topic.
> And also Surgery who took previous photos of 'Yen'



do you have the Book : Genus Paphiopedilum , Albino Forms , Olaf Gruss ?


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## poozcard (Aug 17, 2011)

Hakone said:


> do you have the Book : Genus Paphiopedilum , Albino Forms , Olaf Gruss ?



No la. Books are quite too expensive for me.

Are you sending me?
Thx in advance
:clap::clap:


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## Hakone (Aug 17, 2011)

Do you want to pick up the Book in Japan ?


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## gunny (Aug 17, 2011)

poozcard said:


> I have invited the author, piyasann, to attend this topic.
> And also Surgery who took previous photos of 'Yen'



Very hard to tell what kind of this Paph by leaf. Paph. concolor have many variation in group.


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## Hakone (Aug 17, 2011)

Hakone said:


> from friend (Kunming)



Hello gunny,

is that concolor album " Yen " ?

thank you very much


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## poozcard (Aug 17, 2011)

Hakone said:


> Do you want to pick up the Book in Japan ?



of course, yea, please send me an air ticket.
ANA is preferable.

:clap::clap::clap::drool:


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## Hakone (Aug 17, 2011)

poozcard said:


> of course, yea, please send me an air ticket.
> ANA is preferable.
> 
> :clap::clap::clap::drool:



air ticket why ?


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## Hakone (Aug 17, 2011)

quietaustralian said:


> Gunny posted this pic of "Yen" some time ago. It does look like the clone that Hakone posted.
> 
> Regards, Mick



to remind :

@Tinh

" They sold some extremely rare albinos to one nursery too, paphiopedilum concolor album -Yen AM/RHT three clumps from Yen that Hans Hermans bought. You can ask Yen. Paphiopedilum esquirolei album, several clumps. "

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-19156.html


---------------
http://www.thaipaphioclub.com/forum/...=286&start=100

is today :clap::clap:

Server Failure: The name server was unable to process this query


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## Roth (Aug 17, 2011)

Hakone said:


> to remind :
> 
> @Tinh
> 
> ...



That's the story about the pictured plants I was talking about...  Not three clumps, but two is fair enough.


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## ORG (Aug 17, 2011)

It is really interesting to read the story above.
Just I am returned from Japan, Cambodia and Thailand and have made many pictures on the way.
So I made also the following pictures of a plant in Nagoya during the meeting of the Paphiopedilum Society
Perhaps Xavier knows also a story about.

It was named as *Paph. concolor forma alba, *but is a forma _*sulphurinum*_












sulphurinum is the older name. I do't like the forma _alba_, because some _Paph. concolor_ start with a near white flower and change the color then to a light yellow and then to a true yellow.

Here another plant which was shown as *Paph. concolor forma album*






Best greetings

OLaf


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## poozcard (Aug 17, 2011)

These two are real nice.


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## SlipperFan (Aug 17, 2011)

quietaustralian said:


> Dr Braem's explanation below:
> 
> a) alba resp. album means white, and in my opinion should only be used for plants with PURE WHITE flowers
> b) sulphurinum ... is yellow ... and if you take it correctly, should only be used for sulphur-yellow flowers
> ...


Thanks, Mick.

This makes sense to me. Except that there are so many Paphs. that are called album that are green or yellow. I never understood that!


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## Hakone (Aug 18, 2011)

Roth said:


> That's the story about the pictured plants I was talking about...  Not three clumps, but two is fair enough.



you said : two clumps

Tinh said : three clumps

my friend said : five clumps


Who´s the bald truth ?

total : 2 + 3 + 5 = 10 :clap:


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## Roth (Aug 18, 2011)

ORG said:


> It is really interesting to read the story above.
> Just I am returned from Japan, Cambodia and Thailand and have made many pictures on the way.
> So I made also the following pictures of a plant in Nagoya during the meeting of the Paphiopedilum Society
> Perhaps Xavier knows also a story about.



That's the 'Yen' AM/RHT, same picture as Hakone, and it got some problems during transportation apparently  

I am pretty sure it is one of the plants that I was talking about too, but resold :evil:

Yen did not sell so many divisions of his concolor, you can ask him and the plant and flowers are quite unique to say the least. There are 1-2 in Thailand apart from him (but cannot be divided yet and still there), one I got, one in Taiwan ( not resold), one in Japan ( not that plant, sold to Hanajima Orchids some years ago, and according to Makoto dead), and two stolen plants.

The last picture, I would tend to think that it's an hybrid, but who knows...


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## Roth (Aug 18, 2011)

Hakone said:


> you said : two clumps
> 
> Tinh said : three clumps
> 
> ...



I was involved in this trade, so I know the truth, that's it. Yen came one morning to Hans Hermans house, when our friend from Germany was there too. He wanted those two clumps badly, but did not have enough cash with him, as he was taking a flight few hours later. Hans Hermans made a deposit, and bought those two clumps from Yen, about 5 growths+ each. The total price was 150.000THB for both.

It was all that Yen had at that time of his awarded concolor, except his motherplant, that was about 3 growths. Hans Hermans sent these plants to his nursery in Phrao, where I saw them a few months later again. Then he went to the hospital, his nursery has been, whatever you can call it, stolen, taken over, appropriated, annexed by K... those two concolor album disappeared at that time. And they reappeared in Germany. 

When Hans Hermans died, this 'friend from Germany' came with K to see if he could enter his (new) nursery and bargain plants, few months ago.

Yen made very few divisions, and what he did not sell directly are those two stolen clumps, period.


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## Hakone (Aug 18, 2011)

Roth said:


> That's the 'Yen' AM/RHT, same picture as Hakone, and it got some problems during transportation apparently
> 
> I am pretty sure it is one of the plants that I was talking about too, but resold :evil:
> 
> Yen did not sell so many divisions of his concolor, you can ask him and the plant and flowers are quite unique to say the least. There are 1-2 in Thailand apart from him (but cannot be divided yet and still there), one I got, one in Taiwan ( not resold), one in Japan ( not that plant, sold to Hanajima Orchids some years ago, and according to Makoto dead), and two stolen plants.




you need a new 3 D glasses , that is Hanajima´s plant


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## Hakone (Aug 18, 2011)

Roth said:


> Me of course. I was at Hans house with our german friend, then Yen came, Hans Hermans paid for him the deposit for the two clumps, B could not take them back with him to Germany. So Hans Hermans paid them in full two days later, they went to Hans nursery for the next time, when they could be sent to Germany. Hans Hermans went to the hospital, the nursery had been taken over. Those two concolor were stolen at that time. Then they reappeared in Germany...



*again repetition*

@Tinh

" They sold some extremely rare albinos to one nursery too, paphiopedilum concolor album -Yen AM/RHT *three clumps from Yen that Hans Hermans bought You can ask Yen.* Paphiopedilum esquirolei album, several clumps. "

you can ask him .


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## ORG (Aug 18, 2011)

Dear Xavier,
i won this yellow concolor in an auction in Nagoya beside some other plants.
The plant came from a greenhouse in Japan and not from a greenhouse in Thailand.

Best greetings

Olaf


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## Hakone (Aug 18, 2011)

ORG said:


> Dear Xavier,
> i won this yellow concolor in an auction in Nagoya beside some other plants.
> The plant came from a greenhouse in Japan and not from a greenhouse in Thailand.
> 
> ...



Dear Olaf,

has these greenhouse in Japan a name , perhaps Xavier wants to know.


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## ORG (Aug 18, 2011)

Dear Hakonen,
I don't know the name of the person who brought the plants for the auction,
I know only that it was not the greenhouse of Hanajima, it comes from a small nursery. But I could ask for.
For your information, I payed a price for, which was not so high like the typical prices from Thailand or Japan.

About the names.
You must accept that the official names were taken by the describer, if they were described as forma sanderae, sandowiae, bohlmannianum or album, albidum, flavum, viride, alboviride, immaculatum and so on.

In official publications but also in the exhibitions and at the judging these names should be used. They are so official like the species and the genus-name, if you like it or not.

Best greetings

Olaf


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## Hakone (Aug 18, 2011)

Dear Olaf,

thank you very much , the plants costs in japan 11036,48 Yen.


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## Roth (Aug 18, 2011)

Hakone said:


> you need a new 3 D glasses , that is Hanajima´s plant



Thanks, but that plant died years ago.



Hakone said:


> *again repetition*
> 
> @Tinh
> 
> ...



Already asked Yen, you should do the same and not do the show off...



ORG said:


> Dear Xavier,
> i won this yellow concolor in an auction in Nagoya beside some other plants.
> The plant came from a greenhouse in Japan and not from a greenhouse in Thailand.
> 
> ...



That's interesting, because that is definitely the Yen AM/RHT cultivar. Maybe you have been lucky  or the story is otherwise :evil: 

I ll not post anymore about that, but there is a 'slight doubt' around those two Yen clumps at that time.   but knowing some interconnections, everything is possible as a public explanation...


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## Hakone (Aug 18, 2011)

Xavier , you said : two clumps

Tinh said : three clumps

Was said Yen now ?. 2 ½ clumps .:evil:


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## quietaustralian (Aug 18, 2011)

Hakone said:


> Xavier , you said : two clumps
> 
> Tinh said : three clumps
> 
> Was said Yen now ?. 2 ½ clumps .:evil:



I think Tinh was the username used by Xavier before he settled on the name Roth.

What's the issue with the number of clumps?

Regards, Mick


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## Hakone (Aug 18, 2011)

quietaustralian said:


> I think Tinh was the username used by Xavier before he settled on the name Roth.
> 
> What's the issue with the number of clumps?
> 
> Regards, Mick



Who is Sanderianum :sob:


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## Katai Phrao (Aug 27, 2011)

Roth said:


> I was involved in this trade, so I know the truth, that's it. Yen came one morning to Hans Hermans house, when our friend from Germany was there too. He wanted those two clumps badly, but did not have enough cash with him, as he was taking a flight few hours later. Hans Hermans made a deposit, and bought those two clumps from Yen, about 5 growths+ each. The total price was 150.000THB for both.
> 
> It was all that Yen had at that time of his awarded concolor, except his motherplant, that was about 3 growths. Hans Hermans sent these plants to his nursery in Phrao, where I saw them a few months later again. Then he went to the hospital, his nursery has been, whatever you can call it, stolen, taken over, appropriated, annexed by K... those two concolor album disappeared at that time. And they reappeared in Germany.
> 
> ...



This is imformation from another side....... 

2 clamps of *Paph.concolor album from Yen *was in my nursery.It's True.One of them was taking back with more than 100 Paphs. by Xavier and Marcus in my shop in Chiang Mai,I remember it's raining day >>> (detail in e-mail from Xavier to Marcus on Feb. 14,2007 )........... another one is dead after pollination by Hans thai staff,If you want to know about Paph. concolor album 'Yen' must ask Xavier who've got the plant in 2007.............


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## NYEric (Aug 27, 2011)

Thanx. More interesting info. I hope someone is able to succesfully propagate these.


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## Hakone (Aug 27, 2011)

Who is Marcus ?. In Thailand it rained off and on all day , for a six month .


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## Roth (Aug 27, 2011)

Katai Phrao said:


> This is imformation from another side.......
> 
> 2 clamps of *Paph.concolor album from Yen *was in my nursery.It's True.One of them was taking back with more than 100 Paphs. by Xavier and Marcus in my shop in Chiang Mai,I remember it's raining day >>> (detail in e-mail from Xavier to Marcus on Feb. 14,2007 )........... another one is dead after pollination by Hans thai staff,If you want to know about Paph. concolor album 'Yen' must ask Xavier who've got the plant in 2007.............



Funny Katai, I spared you and did not name you before, but anyway. You kept the plants at that time... There was only a single growth and start division left when I visited you. Marcus or me never took back that plant anyway, I told even you to keep that division, and I did not take a lot of plants back that belonged to me, as you remember. I was kind and stupid. Afterwards, people started to speak, where some plants really went. Anyway too, most of the people in that story were multiple sided, so the truth will never been known for sure.

I found some of my plants on Jatujak at that time, discussed with the seller, who told me his truth, they were coming from you. Do not think too that some of your friends or customers are not in contact with me, and do not discuss with me. Now I do not trust anyone over there, I know how it works, a worker can steal the plants at either place, and make false claims, then it can spread. In Thailand it is incredibly hard to know the truth about something anyway. There is one truth, and the opposite that is another truth...

Again anyway, there are plenty of plants from Hans Hermans newer nursery that surge everywhere, I have seen some last week again, that's life, and you are not involved in that at all, neither am I. There is nothing to say, nothing to do about that, except that some people confuse business and thievery. Let the things rest in peace from that time. 

Just not to expand for the personal story, but Marcus was Hans Hermans lawyer and friend. He has a large office in Bangkok. He and me at that time tried to clear cut the things, so everyone would be fair. Push all the sides so the situation (from Australian ordered plants, to disappeared plants, to...)Unfortunately a lot of things were in fact, unknown to him and me, wrong on all sides. Unknown to him and me as well, no one wanted to get a clear situation.

Anyway, no need to discuss, I know how the things happened (by the way Katai, I am Xavier, so I know exactly what happened in detail...), it's a crab nest.


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## Katai Phrao (Aug 27, 2011)

*That is you !! Xavier*



Roth said:


> Funny Katai, I spared you and did not name you before, but anyway. You kept the plants at that time... There was only a single growth and start division left when I visited you. Marcus or me never took back that plant anyway, I told even you to keep that division, and I did not take a lot of plants back that belonged to me, as you remember. I was kind and stupid. Afterwards, people started to speak, where some plants really went. Anyway too, most of the people in that story were multiple sided, so the truth will never been known for sure.
> 
> I found some of my plants on Jatujak at that time, discussed with the seller, who told me his truth, they were coming from you. Do not think too that some of your friends or customers are not in contact with me, and do not discuss with me. Now I do not trust anyone over there, I know how it works, a worker can steal the plants at either place, and make false claims, then it can spread. In Thailand it is incredibly hard to know the truth about something anyway. There is one truth, and the opposite that is another truth...
> 
> ...



That is you !! Xavier . I 'm glad to hear that if you think you knowed exactly that what happened in details.???


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## Katai Phrao (Aug 27, 2011)

That is you !! Xavier . I 'm glad to hear that if you think you knowed exactly that what happened in details.???


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## NYEric (Aug 28, 2011)

Where's my popcorn!? :evil:


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