# Legal vs. Illegal Paphs



## Heather (Mar 10, 2007)

Perhaps we should start a list so that people know what the status is. 

I'll start but please add to the list and correct me if I am wrong. 

Legal:

gigantifolium
helenae (from Antec with certificates)
vietnamense (with proof of Antec's growing)
adductum var. anitum (from what I understand this is back to just a variety of adductum?)


Still illegal:

jackii

What's the status of ooii?


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## lienluu (Mar 10, 2007)

_P. hangianum_ is still illegal


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## likespaphs (Mar 10, 2007)

most of these...
most, but not all....


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## Roy (Mar 10, 2007)

Legal or Illegal I'm not sure Heather but all of the plants you list are available in Australia in seedling or flowering size plants. Not sure about P.ooii though.
Roy


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## likespaphs (Mar 10, 2007)

actually, i'm fairly sure i've heard of at least some plants of Paph ooii being legally imported by the guy after whom it's named....


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## Kyle (Mar 10, 2007)

Someone was selling them on OrchidMall a few weeks ago. Ooii, that is.

Kyle


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## gore42 (Mar 10, 2007)

First of all, it should be kept in mind that this list is only for those of us in the USA. The US Fish and Wildlife takes a different interpretation of CITES than other countries. In Australia, for example, anything grown from a flask is legal, if I'm not mistaken. In the US, though, flask grown plants are only legal if the parent plants were also legal.

As such, most of the Vietnamese species that were discovered in the 1990s and later are illegal, including:

Paph coccineum (bargiberum var. lockianum?), Paph hermannii, Paph hangianum, Paph jackii/hiepii, Paph vietnamense (except the plants released by Antec and their progeny, if there are any), Paph helenae (except those from Antec), Paph dalatense, Paph aspersum, Paph tranlienianum, and maybe others that I can't think of.

I'm not sure which species from the Philippines and Indonesia are still illegal. gigantifolium is certainly available from a couple of US vendors, and USFW is apparently treating anitum as adductum var. anitum, which gives it the same legal status as adductum.

I've spoken to Michael Ooi about Paph ooii, and they will be legal as soon as he is able to propagate a sufficient number to export, if I understood correctly. I'd be surprised if those for sale on the OrchidMall were legal, but I didn't see them, so I don't know 

- Matt


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## slippertalker (Mar 10, 2007)

Basically any paph species imported without CITES paperwork is illegal. The Vietnamese species come to mind because Vietnam has not legally exported any of these plants. If the government of Vietnam doesn't issue the proper documents, then the species is illegal in the USFW's eyes. Other countries are creating sib crosses and hybrids from species without documentation from the country of origin, but even the flasks can't be legally imported into the U.S.

It would be nice if we could all play to the same set of rules.....


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Mar 10, 2007)

Really, the Vietnamese plants are the problem in terms of CITES...as Vietnam is, as far as I know, not a CITES signatory....so all of their plants are considered illegal, even if flasked (that said, I did hear about a supposedly CITES approved flask of hangianum...), as their parents can't be proved to be legally obtained and propagated...but this is also only for the US, as it is the interpretation of the USFW ("fruit of the poisoned tree"). Plants coming from other areas can be approved, if they have been grown in flask, hence the legal gigantifolium...as for anitum or ooii on Orchid Mall, there is a guy named Djony Panger who posts on the "Unclassifieds" who send plants from Indonesia. These are collected plants, grown in cultivation for a season or 2, then sent off without any CITES certification. These are clearly illegal plants, even the species he sells that are otherwise legally available, like sangii. Take care, Eric


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## paphreek (Mar 13, 2007)

For the record, I just wanted to make sure we are using the correct terminology, here. These orchids should not be referred to as "illegal orchids", but rather "undocumented orchids".oke:


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## slippertalker (Mar 13, 2007)

paphreek said:


> For the record, I just wanted to make sure we are using the correct terminology, here. These orchids should not be referred to as "illegal orchids", but rather "undocumented orchids".oke:



We have the same terminology situation with illegal or undocumented aliens.
The bottom line is they don't have the proper documents to be here legally.
Of course, both immigrants and orchids still sneak in.....


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## Leo Schordje (Mar 13, 2007)

Heather, and rest. Please resist the urge to play policeman. You are wrong in assuming AnTec is the ONLY outfit working to bring in Paphs (or other CITES genera) into USA following proper LEGAL procedures. Most of the " Legal" P. helenae came in through Paphanatics, though AnTec has their own independant effort. There are others currently working with USFW who because the process is not complete would like to stay off discussion boards. There ARE a few legal gigantifolium, helenae, possibly hangianum and most of the others listed, but for various reason the half dozen firms that have been able to navigate the byzyntine mine field USFW set up they currently want to remain quiet. Making blanket statements that ALL of one thing or another are illegal is not helpful. Please don't make LISTS, because they WILL be wrong, and can damage the efforts of people legally working in the system. 
. As a separate related issue, that did not come up here in this thread, but has been seen on this disccusion board in the past: If you are not on the USFW payroll, please don't take on the roll of a USFW deputy. Firstly, without legal status, the people you challenge don't have to respond, and second, you are not protected by any sort of professional malpractice if you are wrong in the accusations. Only a deputized officer has immunity for errors and omissions in regards to accusations and sanctions. If you are not on the government payroll, don't take the slander and libel risk for them. 

For what ever it is worth.
Leo


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## gore42 (Mar 13, 2007)

Leo,

This is a point well taken. I imagine that you're right... there may be other people who are quietly, legally importing these Vietnamese species, though I don't know how, considering Vietnam's reluctance to issue export documents. This list, however, was not intended to defame any particular vendor (except Chinese Green, and I have plenty of evidence to avoid libel charges in that case) or other person who may be growing these species. 

This post is in the "Beginner's Corner", and is simply meant to protect those who may not know which species they should be careful about buying. Unfortunately, all of these species are illegally available in the US, and in fact, are pretty common on the black market... and it is MUCH more likely that a newcomer to orchids will come across an illegal Paph hangianum than a legal one from the few people who have them (if indeed some people do have them legally).

So, that said, take my previous post with a grain of salt... some of these species may be legally available, but make sure that you can protect yourself if you buy them.

- Matthew Gore


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## Heather (Mar 13, 2007)

Leo, 

I started this post because a person new to growing was concerned about not knowing what she was allowed to own or not and I thought it would be useful to have this discussion. 
I was certainly not trying to "police" anyone!


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## NYEric (Mar 14, 2007)

I think the problem is w/ acquiring something ripped out of the forest versus something cultured and bred by growers but not accepted in the eyes of our gorvernment. Wasn't CITES supposed to be international? If so why aren't the controls applied equally. Even Canadians can get plant the USA can't.


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## kentuckiense (Mar 14, 2007)

NYEric said:


> Even Canadians can get plant the USA can't.


Since CITES signatories are free to interpret it any way they like, the USA has laws that say that the parents of the plant must be artificially propagated, too.


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## Kyle (Mar 14, 2007)

Yes, us Canadians have access to pretty much all the new things. If it's in flask, we can import it. I'm going to buy a flask of hangianum at the Vancouver show (if the taiwanese vendor ever emails me back...) Prices for the new things are also very reasonable.

Kyle


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## ajintboo (Mar 14, 2007)

Leo,
I am the newcomer who orginally asked the question as to which paphs were legal to own and which weren't. I certainly don't want to purchase or own a plant that was obtained illegally or does not have the proper documentation in the US. That said, it is necessary for a novice to have an idea of which species must be purchased with a certain amount of caution. I don't wish to damage the efforts of the folks working leagally within the system, on the other hand I need to know whats legal, what is not and which plants require documentation. This was a very novice question that was not meant to negatively affect anyone. The replies I have received have been very helpful.
Thank you, Sarah


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## littlefrog (Mar 14, 2007)

I'm a little concerned we are scaring the newcomers away from any paph species. Rest assured, there are very few 'illegal' species and you really have to search them out. They will be expensive, too. Growing species paphs is fun and rewarding, please buy lots of species.

I think the practical consideration as a newcomer is that you should never buy a species that is unusually expensive. For several reasons. It is expensive because a) it is hard to grow, or b) it is impossible to grow, or c) it shouldn't be grown because the provenance is questionable, or d) the provenance is impeccable, and hence it costs a fortune. Or perhaps e) several of the above and it takes 10 years to bloom, to boot.

In all these cases, chances are good you risk killing an expensive plant before you ever see any flowers. And that isn't what we grow slippers for, we grow them to get some pretty flowers. Get some experience with the easier species under your belt, and by then you will probably have a good idea what is 'legal' and what isn't. 

Of course the best way to figure this out is to ask the vendor. If they are selling an illegal plant, they probably won't sell it to you after you ask... Or they are proud of the fact that it is wild collected and will tell you all about how they got it back from Vietnam wrapped up in their dirty underwear. Just seeing it sold openly is a good sign, most people aren't stupid enough to sell contraband in public. By far the vast majority of species paphs you will ever see for sale in the USA are legal, and the person selling it will be able to satisfy your need for information.


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## bwester (Mar 14, 2007)

littlefrog said:


> Or they are proud of the fact that it is wild collected and will tell you all about how they got it back from Vietnam wrapped up in their dirty underwear.



So the brown stuff on my micranthum might not have been mud????


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## gore42 (Mar 14, 2007)

> Just seeing it sold openly is a good sign, most people aren't stupid enough to sell contraband in public.



Rob,

You're generally right, I think, but illegal Paphs (shipped from Asia) do pop up on Ebay with some frequency, and since Ebay is a large enough market, it is worth mentioning. Also, they seem to appear on the unclassifieds quite a bit (at very low prices!), so I think that they are sold openely in public more than we'd like to believe is possible. 

For those of you who are beginners, the safest thing to do is to buy your plants from a reputable US vendor... there are plenty of them, and just about any species that you're looking for will be available from one of them, if you're willing to look hard enough.

Also, learn a little bit about the species that you're going to buy before you buy it so that you know about their native habitats and how recently they have found their way into cultivation.

As Ever,
Matthew Gore


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## NYEric (Mar 14, 2007)

Well, this is scaring me away from species.


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## littlefrog (Mar 14, 2007)

I don't think I could ever bring myself to buy a plant on Ebay...


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## gonewild (Mar 14, 2007)

littlefrog said:


> I don't think I could ever bring myself to buy a plant on Ebay...



Why?


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## NYEric (Mar 14, 2007)

Next time I get to download my camera I'll photos of eBay purchases. BTW that's how I got in contact w/ John Chant.


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## littlefrog (Mar 14, 2007)

gonewild said:


> Why?


Too much crap, too little accountability, and nobody can spell anything properly.

I assume there are good deals to be had, but I don't have time to sort through it. Besides, I have enough plants.


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## gonewild (Mar 14, 2007)

littlefrog said:


> Too much crap, too little accountability, and nobody can spell anything properly.
> 
> I assume there are good deals to be had, but I don't have time to sort through it. Besides, I have enough plants.



I sell on Ebay. I don't sell crap. I am completely accountable and I spell correctly. There is good deals to be had on Ebay and there are opportunities to purchase plants that can't be easily found elsewhere.

I don't think it is fair to make blanket statements that seem to recommend people not trust Ebay. After all buyers are not buying from Ebay... they buy from people who advertise on Ebay. To suggest Ebay is a bad place to purchase from is like suggesting the internet is bad place to buy from. 

Just remember Ebay is not an orchid store it is an orchid show. You can choose who you purchase from and have plenty of time to do so.


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## smartie2000 (Mar 14, 2007)

I don't think eBay is crap. I got good cyps on eBay.
However I did get a lot of crap in Canada, stuff that were obvious culls from people (though they weren't cheap, they picture beautiful photos stolen from catalogues and the plants do bloom out ugly and the vendors know because they were obviously previously bloomed with close examination, they just cut off the old growth), overcharged shipping, damaged plants etc. (in Canada)

However I look at eBay USA and I really wish I could purchase a few things from there, too bad there are regulations for importing and most vendors (ebay or non-ebay) don't want to export unless a spend a huge sum of money.


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## gonewild (Mar 14, 2007)

smartie2000 said:


> I don't think eBay is crap. I got good cyps on eBay.
> However I did get a lot of crap in Canada, stuff that were obvious culls from people (though they weren't cheap, they picture beautiful photos stolen from catalogues and the plants do bloom out ugly and the vendors know because they were obviously previously bloomed with close examination, they just cut off the old growth), overcharged shipping, damaged plants etc. (in Canada)



That happens in the USA also. But it is not limited to Ebay. Anytime you buy something (anything) sight-un-seen you are risking the same problem and it is not limited to plants or even the internet. 



> However I look at eBay USA and I really wish I could purchase a few things from there, too bad there are regulations for importing and most vendors (ebay or non-ebay) don't want to export unless a spend a huge sum of money.



This is because it takes a lot of the grower/shippers time to secure the inspections and documents required for the international shipment. Hours may be consumed in the process so the seller needs to make sure they are compensated for their efforts. The inspection fee alone is about $75.00. If you were just buying one inexpensive plant the seller would loose money and he must make a profit for his business. For these reasons sellers often require a minimum purchase to make it profitable for their efforts.
If you buy a lot of plants in one shipment the extra fees may not be very much per plant.


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## bwester (Mar 14, 2007)

I've gotten some awesome plants off ebay, you just have to know who to buy from, antec sells there exclusively now.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Mar 14, 2007)

There are definitely good deals to be had on Ebay....it takes some searching, but a knowledgable slippergrower will find really good stuff. Not every day, or every week....but its there. Certainly more for hybrids than species...aside from "Chinesegreen", very few unusual species turn up on ebay, but good deals on the standards appear occasionally....for instance in the past few months, I have gotten multigrowth large plants of P. hisutissimum (now with 2 sheaths) and P. villosum, and a large single growth P. dianthum, all for less than $20, from Clackamas Orchids. Mainly, though, the good deals are on hybrids. Last month I won a w growth Tommy Hanes "Val" for about $15....and the grower notified me that if I win any other auctions I'll get discounted shipping. Just today I got 2 white complex paphs, one in bloom for $23, the other's bloom faded, so I was reimbursed $8 by the grower, so the plant was $18....both are large, multigrowth plants. As for a beginner attempting slippers for the first time, I highly recommend the rule I followed for many years....and still do, most of the time...The "$25 rule"....don't pay more than $25 for a plant. There are plenty of species available in that price range...and Murphy's Law dictates that the more you spend for a plant, the more likely it is to die (rule also applies to tropical fish....). Believe me, illegal plants will not be an issue....all plants you get will be fully legal, and possible to grow and bloom. Take care, Eric


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## littlefrog (Mar 15, 2007)

I stand by my implication not to trust Ebay. But I'd say the same about any vendor or source. You can't blindly trust anybody. If you take the time to do some serious research and think about what you are doing, then by all means, buy from any place you trust. Personally, I don't have time to wade through e-bay to find the good stuff. And I'm sure there are good and trustworthy people there. It just isn't for me.

Although I must say that while I personally don't order from ebay, a friend who is out of the country was ordering a lot (mostly slippers) and sending it to me for safe-keeping. I opened a lot of boxes (50 or so). I don't know what was paid for each plant, but I'd break it down as %25 spectacular, 30-40% nice, and the rest of it was stuff that I might have bought if it was really cheap. There were a few real dogs in the lot, and most of the spectacular stuff was plants that had been bought wholesale and flipped immediately (I know, because I order from the same wholesalers and I get the same stuff). Nothing wrong with flipping plants, I guess, but it is easier for me to get them directly.


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## ajintboo (Mar 15, 2007)

Thanks everybody for your comments on buying orchids from Ebay. I have bought a couple hybrids from Ebay, mostly to 'get my feet wet'. I want to see if I can grow slippers...I am addicted to them, but still don't know if I can grow one. I guess what really got my attention was the comment about 'Chinesegreen'. The day that was posted in the orginal thread I had actually looked at several 'Chinesegreen' offerings on Ebay. I didn't bid as I wasn't that interested in what was offered, but it has served as a bit of a wake up call as to the integrity of some vendors. That aside, I find Ebay a wonderful learning tool for a novice. You can look at pictures of crosses and then compare to the pictures of the parents (I have slipperorchids.info open in a seperate window). I am sure it would bore most of you to tears, but as a novice this is fun for me (for now). I also check out vendors websites that I stumble across on Ebay. So as you see I have found Ebay to be a source of information. Thanks again for your comments posted on this forum...its a great place to learn. Sarah


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## gonewild (Mar 15, 2007)

ajintboo said:


> You can look at pictures of crosses and then compare to the pictures of the parents (I have slipperorchids.info open in a seperate window). I am sure it would bore most of you to tears, but as a novice this is fun for me (for now).



I do that everyday and I don't get no tears about it!


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## Heather (Mar 15, 2007)

ajintboo said:


> I am sure it would bore most of you to tears, but as a novice this is fun for me (for now).



Sarah, this statement made me giggle. I think many of us started off that way. And I think many of us still do just what you do. It is fun, and it's how we all learn! 

Glad you have joined us here and I hope we can be helpful to you in your quest for knowledge!


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## esungirl (Mar 25, 2007)

I'm not afraid of species...and I'm new to slippers. In facti i prefer to have species...it's related to a future fantasy of being out on an excursion and being able to see and appreciate a plant that I have at home. Now I don't know if that will ever be possible...but it's my escape. As far as knowing what's legal, well I usually go with something similar to what Rob said. Too much money, too hard to find, forget it. I'll have a test from ebay blooming soon. A P. delenati, so I'll post a pic of my ebay find as soon as it opens, should be in a day or 2 it's my first blooming paph. period so I'm pretty excited.:clap:


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## Slipperhead (Jul 2, 2007)

I posted a similar question to Heather's some time ago, perhaps on the Slipper Forum. I can't find it here. Anyway, I was asking for a written list of forbidden slippers published by any organization.....and no one could come up with one. This morning, I happen to run across the AOS Trustee Meeting minutes from 11/06 where they discussed the findings of the "Slipper Taskforce" regarding the judging of paph and phrag species and hybrids. Interesting reading. (BTW, I didn't realize awards could be challenged and rescinded and award fees refunded! There are several taxonomy questions that were posed. Check pages beginning on page 14.)

Here is the link: 
http://www.orchidweb.org/aos/about/documents/Minutes-StLouis-F2006_000.doc

Here is the text in its entirety. They give a list of species and mention kovachii and its hybrids.

The Task Force on the Judging of Paphiopedilum and Phragmipedium species report follows:

JUDGING OF PAPHIOPEDILUM AND PHRAGMIPEDIUM SPECIES
TAXONOMICALLY DESCRIBED SUBSEQUENT TO LISTING OF THESE GENERA ON CITES 
APPENDIX 1

In 1989 these two genera were placed on CITES Appendix 1. As a result, species described after this date should only be judged in their countries of origin unless it can be established that a particular plant in question has entered the United States legally or, in the case of hybrids, was made with legally obtained material. The list of species includes but is not limited to:

Paphiopedilum gigantifolium, Paph. hangianum, Paph. helenae, Paph. itaniae, Paph. malipoense var. jackii, Paph. ooii, Paph. rhizomatosum, Paph. sugiyamanum, Paph. tranlienianum, Paph. usitanum, Paph. vietnamense, Phragmipedium kovachii, Phrag. tetzlaffianum, Phrag. christiansenianum, and Phrag. chapadense. Phragmipedium fischeri and Phrag. richteri are probably exceptions because they were in cultivation under different names before they were validly described and there have been a fair number of Paphiopedilum species described that are actually synonyms for long-cultivated species. For example, Paph. wenshanense (described in 2000) is a synonym for Paph. bellatulum (described in 1892)

Until recently the situation regarding these plants was fairly straightforward. Since there were no legal plants in cultivation in the United States these plants were off limits for AOS judging. Just as this list can change as newly described species are added, it can also change as legal plants become available and can be deleted from it. Such is the case with at least Paphiopedilum vietnamense (and its hybrids with other species not on the list) and Phragmipedium kovachii (and its hybrids with species not on the list).

The presence of these legal plants requires a mechanism to deal with awards to such plants. While plants grow and individual clones are divided over time making it difficult to tell legal material from illegal material, there is a transition period where legal material can be traced. 
•	Judging Paphiopedilum vietnamense, Phragmipedium kovachii and their respective legal hybrids 
Awards to these two (2) species and their respective hybrids shall be treated as provisional with the requirement that the exhibitor provide the AOS with proof of legality; either a receipt from a legal vendor or copy of an appropriate CITES document. In the case of hybrids involving one of these species in the background, the documentation must be sufficient to trace the seedlings back to a parent plant legally released into cultivation in the United States or to a legal importation of such seedlings. 
If in the opinion of the judges present, the plants exhibited appear to be consistent with legal material, i.e., young plants blooming for the first or second time, they may be judged without prior receipt of this required documentation much as other species are considered without prior taxonomic verification. However, just as with other Provisional Awards, the award will not be processed without this documentation. In addition, these awards shall be subject to the 1 year time limitation imposed on other Provisional Awards.
Should additional species on the forbidden list (see above) become legally available, the same provisional treatment shall become applicable for these species and their respective legal hybrids.
•	Future Changes
At some point it becomes nearly impossible to trace legal material as plants are divided and sold or traded. In addition, after a relatively short period specimen plants of legal seedlings are indistinguishable from illegally collected specimen plants. Eventually it will be necessary for the JC to decide which species and hybrids should no longer require proof of legality for the award to be valid.
Prepared by Ron McHatton, PhD (Chair, AOS Education Committee), Aileen Garrison (Chair, AOS Judging Committee), Lowell Jacks (Chair, Atlanta Judging Center)


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## NYEric (Jul 2, 2007)

Thanx, too bad the AOS has no weight w/ the Dept of Agriculture.


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