# Bulbophylum rothchildianum



## Rick (Nov 18, 2006)

This is still a small division and not blooming up to full potential. It will often have 5 or more flowers in the umbel. The fringe is very cool on these.


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## SlipperFan (Nov 18, 2006)

Nice, but I don't think it's rothschildianum. It looks like fascinator or putidum (Mastigion).


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## Rick (Nov 19, 2006)

That's what I thought at first too, but I have a fascinator, and although it will occasionally throw a double bloom the lip is much longer and lacks the long fringe on the dorsal and laterals. The bulbs on fascinator are squatier and angular with shorter leaves than this plant. 

This is supposed to be a clone of "red chimney" that I got from Ron NY. Maybe he has a picture of his with a full umbel.


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## Mahon (Nov 19, 2006)

I agree with Dot... this doesn't look like _Bulbo. rothschildianum_... it resembles that Bulbo. Elizabeth Ann 'Buckleberry' FCC/AOS, or maybe some other hybrid with _Mastigion_ in it... very nice flower though! 

-Pat


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## TADD (Nov 19, 2006)

Roth is more red and triangular with a wider base. I believe. I wish Roth flower stuck around longer too.


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## Ron-NY (Nov 19, 2006)

Rick I can't find a pic of mine but mine is more red than that pic. I will keep loking for the pic. I am unsure if I sent you a division or a seedling of rothschildianum


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## Greenpaph (Nov 19, 2006)

Ron, 

Beautiful flower. Is it growing on an oak branch?

thanks


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## Rick (Nov 19, 2006)

Greenpaph said:


> Ron,
> 
> Beautiful flower. Is it growing on an oak branch?
> 
> thanks



Actually I strapped it to a piece of oak bark and jammed that into an aercone pot of moss. It was supposed to be tempory, but I let it get out of hand, and now its on both sides of the bark with no easy way to transfer it to another mount.

I'll probably end up repacing the pot with a wood-slat basket.


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## Rick (Nov 19, 2006)

Well I've been scouring through internet photos of roth, fascinator, putidum, and ornatissimum.

I have come to the conclussion that they are all one huge super variable speciesoke: oke: 

I came across a post on Garden web with a pic of a flower that is a dead ringer for mine and said it was purchased as a roth, but is acutally an ornatissimum.

Oak hill has identical pics that also are also a dead ringer for mine listed as putidum and putidum var fascinator.

Pics of ornatissimum range from things that look exactly like roth to things that are presently being called appendiculatum (generally a thin white flower with candy-cane like striping).

Even roth pics show a wide range of variability, from real wide solid red to something pretty close to mine.

Maybe this is a job for Guido:sob:


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## SlipperFan (Nov 19, 2006)

We had Bill Thoms speak about Bulbophyllums at our GLOS meeting last night. During the day, he visited the greenhouse, saw one of the plants, noted that had two different flowers. He said one was facinator and the other was putidum. Facinator, he said, had bent elbows whereas putidum's arms were out straight. Jay Phal's site said that the two are synonymous, but Bill distinguishes them. From what he said, I think yours is fascinator.

We have a Bulb rothschildianum "Red Chimney" in the greenhouse. Here is a photo I took awhile ago:


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Nov 19, 2006)

I'd say roth x putidum. Very beautiful, and I'm sure very bait smelling.

Jon


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## Rick (Nov 19, 2006)

Jon in SW Ohio said:


> I'd say roth x putidum. Very beautiful, and I'm sure very bait smelling.
> 
> Jon



Actually the smell is faintly of fresh fish. Not that bad overall. Has anyone ever seen a young roth put out less than 4 flowers on an umbel?

Between Bill Porter's "red chimney" and one on "orchids in our tropics" there is a lot of variation in the sepal width of "red chimney" however I have never seen any roth pics with fewer than 4 or 5 flowers in the umbel. Even hybrids to roth typically have 4 or more flowers to umbel.


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## Rick (Nov 19, 2006)

Rick said:


> This is still a small division and not blooming up to full potential. It will often have 5 or more flowers in the umbel. The fringe is very cool on these.




Here is a photo of my fascinator with a double bloom. You can see a big difference in the lip and dorsal sepal compared to the above flower.
According to Siegerist the lip should have 2 pubescent keels, while putidum has a similar large lip but with 3 glaborous keels. So this seems to look more like putidum according to Siegerist.


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Nov 19, 2006)

Huh, the last pic looks like what I call fascinator. Why are the taxonomically confused ones always our favorites??
I've never noticed a lot of smell from putidum, but every rothschildianum I've smelled has been pretty rank. I don't think I've ever smelled fascinator...have to keep my eyes and nose open.

I've always assumed ornatissimum, appendiculata, and putidum were synonymous and look like this:





I thought I had a better pic of my rothschildianum (not 'Red Chimney'!), but all I have are some under HPS so the color is drowned.





Jon


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## Mahon (Nov 19, 2006)

These species do look alike. I have seen three of these species, and cannot tell you major differences between them. I think that a factor of each species being seperate is the keeling of the lip and the fused lateral sepals. They are part of _Mastigion_, a segregate genus of _Bublophyllum_...

_Mastigion_ contains 5 species;

_Mast. appendiculatum_
_Mast. proboscideum_
_Mast. ornatissimum_
_Mast. putidum_
_Mast. fascinator_

The _Bulbo. rothschildianum_ is more correctly known as _Cirrhopetalum rothschildianum_...

-Pat

(I just realized none of what I posted helped anything... )


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## Rick (Nov 19, 2006)

If I were to do this more by picture consensus rather than descriptive characters. Putidum and apendiculatum are frequently listed with almost identical pics. I even found one reference that suggested that fascinator was a naturnal tetraploid of putidum!?!?.

I have found several pics of ornatissimum that are all over the board. I saw a type line drawing that showed it with 3 flowers in an umbel. In E. Seigerist's book it looks just like a roth with 4 to 5 flowers per umbel. I found other pics that were like that, and pics that looked just like apendiculata with a single flower. In general they all had that same small rounded lip that you could see daylight through the gap in the sepals near the column. Seigerists description notes a small round lip for apendiculation and ornatissimum, but the big triangluar lip for fascinator and putidum. 

I found a reference to "red chimney" as the common name given to this plant in its native India. So I'm wondering if all roths are red chimney, or did a specific clone get awarded and given this name?


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Nov 19, 2006)

I had a past discussion with someone over all these species about a year ago, and I think he said Seigerist has the wrong photo and accidently put rothschildianum's pic there. I don't have a reference to that though, so it may be worth an e-mail to hear from the horse's mouth.

'Red Chimney' is a very famous clone that's garnered 2 AMs, and finally an FCC/AOS in 1991 along with a few CCMs and CCEs...and one of the best roths I've seen.

Jon


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## Rick (Nov 19, 2006)

Mahon said:


> The _Bulbo. rothschildianum_ is more correctly known as _Cirrhopetalum rothschildianum_...
> 
> -Pat
> 
> (I just realized none of what I posted helped anything... )



Not sure about your last point Pat. I guess recently Garay kept roth, wendlandianum and a few others (traditionally in Cirrhopetalum) in Bulbo sect cirrhopetaliodes, but not back into genus Cirrhopetalum. Had something to do with petal and sepal attachment points on the collumn. 

I came across a German site that posted pics of ornatissimum (correction) and putidum side by side, and I couldn't see a difference other than lack of fringe in putidum.


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## Rick (Nov 19, 2006)

Jon in SW Ohio said:


> I had a past discussion with someone over all these species about a year ago, and I think he said Seigerist has the wrong photo and accidently put rothschildianum's pic there. I don't have a reference to that though, so it may be worth an e-mail to hear from the horse's mouth.
> 
> 'Red Chimney' is a very famous clone that's garnered 2 AMs, and finally an FCC/AOS in 1991 along with a few CCMs and CCEs...and one of the best roths I've seen.
> 
> Jon



I can believe it Jon, but on a number of German sites there are pictures of "ornatissimum" that look totally weird with broad striated sepals that don't always stay twisted together??? Also they have a high number of flowers per umbel.

What was really a crackup was that I came across a thread on a French orchid site that is almost a parrallel to this thread.

What a mess


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## Mahon (Nov 19, 2006)

Rick said:


> Not sure about your last point Pat. I guess recently Garay kept roth, wendlandianum and a few others (traditionally in Cirrhopetalum) in Bulbo sect cirrhopetaliodes, but not back into genus Cirrhopetalum. Had something to do with petal and sepal attachment points on the collumn.



Did not know this... thanks for the info 

-Pat


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## Rayb (Nov 20, 2006)

If you look at page # 6 my Roth is posted there for a comparission
Ray Hope that helps. I bought mine from Dowery Orchids I trust him very much


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## Rick (Nov 20, 2006)

Rayb said:


> If you look at page # 6 my Roth is posted there for a comparission
> Ray Hope that helps. I bought mine from Dowery Orchids I trust him very much



What is page # 6 please?

Thanks Rick


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## SlipperFan (Nov 21, 2006)

Unfortunately, what I've learned from serious Bulbophyllum growers and vendors in the US & Canada is that Siegriest's book is full of errors, and you cannot trust it for IDing plants. Worse, there's no definitive source right now to go to.


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## NYEric (Nov 21, 2006)

*Outside looking in..*

Wow, those are some fascinating photos. With my current Phrag, Tolumnia, Pluero. addictions I am sure I will never try to grow any of these but still fascinating.


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