# CITES amendment



## Roth (Nov 16, 2009)

As I always said, the flasks of Paphiopedilum species have never, ever, been subject to the CITES before, including intaniae, ooii, etc...

The USA submitted the following amendment for approval:

http://www.cites.org/common/cop/15/raw_props/E-15 Prop-US Orchidaceae.pdf

Where it appears, at last, very clear, that at no time, until this amendment is accepted, Paphiopedilum flasks have been illegal according to the CITES.

As of today, it appears clear too that flasks of Paphiopedilum hangianum, vietnamense, etc... are completely legal in the USA. Otherwise the USA would never have submitted this amendment.

End of the story.


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## TyroneGenade (Nov 16, 2009)

IMHO the new wording is more fuzzy. How can you prove that the plants are from a legitimate source? One only needs a hint of impropriety from the sender and the flasks are suddenly illegal. The blanket immunity of flasks was more practical. As almost all vietnamense etc... were collected illegally all flasks of these species will be illegal because they were "entering trade
as flasked seedlings produced from parental stock that has been illegally acquired and exported from range countries." This amendment seems like just another way to make our lives difficult.

One can make a case for "innocent until proven guilty" but we all know that is NOT how conservation officials operate.


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## cnycharles (Nov 16, 2009)

from what I've heard about how restrictive american officials have been regarding the section 1 species, the amendment is how they want to enforce things right now. the amendment is more wanting the rest of the world to enforce it the same way, so there can be no confusion during lawsuits by those who have tried to import the appendix 1 species. it would be a challenge to try and convict someone if the defending parties can say 'this shouldn't be restricted; look, the rest of the world reads it this way and the world does this so why can't we?'. I think the present wording without amendment is supposed to make it legal for any flasked appendix 1 plants to be traded across lines, without regard to parentage (which I think is very reasonable) but here they have a different opinion. I think on paper it seems like a good idea, and since most appendix 1 species orchids come into this country instead of the other way around, it places the burden of proof and the expense and hassle of doing such on all the other countries that export them so there isn't as much regard for the potential headaches that would come about. ...but often things that might look good on paper don't have a very good realistic effect in practice.

now say if plants have been flasked in a source country and legally imported as flask or plants into canada, what would happen with this new addition? would plants now 'legal' become 'illegal' because they possibly couldn't prove that the source had collected them illegally? would they all be rejected because of lack, or would they become accepted because they were flasked seedlings of plants that came out of flask? how far back would you have to go in the lineage to prove that it wasn't an illegally collected species? would canada have to have an approval process for their nurseries where they would have to prove that their plants were all 'legally obtained' in order for certain nurseries to be approved as certified legal importers? this is more of a rhetorical question in that I'm curious to see the answers but it's more a wondering about how things would have to change if this amendment were attached... there would have to be a legal process created to determine this (I think, may already be in place)


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## Ernie (Nov 16, 2009)

Yes, this looks like the US wanting the rest of the world to interpret the flask rule as "we" do (parents must be legally obtained). Sheesh, sorry to take you down with us, rest of the world. 

-Ernie


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## TyroneGenade (Nov 16, 2009)

I deal a lot with Burleigh Park Orchid Nursery in Australia. They are an CITES authorised grower which means that CITES has visited there premises and declared that all is above board. This sounds simple enough but, as you say Charles, what if someone then claims that the parent plants weren't legal?

For me, the big issue is: so what? So what if the parent plant was hacked out of the wild you are selling a flask with 10s to 100s of seedlings meaning no other plant need be taken from the wild? Isn't nursery propagation the goal? The new wording will make it much harder for nurseries to operate and more profitable for poachers.


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## paphioland (Nov 16, 2009)

This is so ridiculous and horrible for the wild plants. How many people want collected roths. Not many. They should be encouraging as many flasks to get out into circulation as quickly as possible.


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## valenzino (Nov 16, 2009)

TyroneGenade said:


> I deal a lot with Burleigh Park Orchid Nursery in Australia. They are an CITES authorised grower which means that CITES has visited there premises and declared that all is above board. This sounds simple enough but, as you say Charles, what if someone then claims that the parent plants weren't legal?
> 
> For me, the big issue is: so what? So what if the parent plant was hacked out of the wild you are selling a flask with 10s to 100s of seedlings meaning no other plant need be taken from the wild? Isn't nursery propagation the goal? The new wording will make it much harder for nurseries to operate and more profitable for poachers.



I have answered in another thread about some even less possiblre to understand ways of CITES to act and exist.Post it also here.
Someway,with this informations you can think that all paphs that have not been collected pre CITES or reproduced from the above list of nurseries are illegal,so,in the USA ways 99% of Paphs around are illegal or not possible to prove that they are legal...


Quote:
<Originally Posted by Sanderianum View Post
Yes Hourai propagates quite a fair share of their offer of paphs. So far they are the only one to do it in Malaysia. The remaining is close to none...>

Originally Posted by Valenzino

I work often with Houray and can confirm that they are the only nursery in Malaysia that really propagate Paph species.

Another interesting basic fact is CITES.I have helped them with some strange CITES procedures some years ago.They wanted to talk and do a REAL CITES registered nursery.As I live near Switzerland I was able to go to Geneve and talk to central CITES officials.After several years Houray managed to be a Geneve Cites Registered Nursery for Malaysian species reproduction.
Go to this page and press malaysia on the left.

http://www.cites.org/common/reg/e_nu.html

If we look all this pages,we can see that there are nearly no other "REAL" authorized nursery in south east asia(2 in Myanmar and strangely really a lot in India,but only for i medicalplant).So In theory "NO ONE" can export App I plants legally from SEA than those nurseries...

Maybe Sanderianum or someone else can explain us how this works and how ex..thailand exports thousands Paphs with Cites but dont have an "authorized" nursery.

And also if an authorized nursey registered in this list,that have the authorization of CITES for reproduce the Vietnam species that are illegal in the usa,can export there legal plants and flasks...

Someone knows?


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## NYEric (Nov 16, 2009)

What this does is limit "legal" production to the friends of CITES group. As mentioned above, technically 99% of paphs would become illegal also. Once again ignorance rules in policy making and the big US of A tries to make the world work from the USA point of view.


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## Roth (Nov 17, 2009)

baodai said:


> I can't speak for other countries, But in Vietnam it is illegal to collect wild paph. BD



Not quite, they can be rescued, and most nurseries dealing in paphs in Vietnam, even fresh jungle ones have got at a time or another rescued plants. VN laws allow to buy back plants that have been confiscated, opening the way for many nurseries to stay in the trade pain free...


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## Lance Birk (Nov 17, 2009)

Get a grip Baodai, those zillions of paphs collected in Vietnam in the 90s were done by the Vietnamese themselves, because of their greed for money. That's all. The unfortunate ones who may have lost their life most likely were not familiar with jungle orchid collecting and should have stayed home instead of being caught up in the fury of "big money."

Unfortunately, nearly all those plants perished because there weren't buyers in place who could market the "illegal" plants to outside buyers. Ask Sanderianum. He wasn't there at the time (I don't think) but I'm sure he can give more details.

Ultimately, CITES carries a huge responsibility for causing this in the first place.


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## Roth (Nov 17, 2009)

It's true that Vietnameses make a huge amount of money out of wild collected orchids. Paphs, but not only. The medicinal trade is even far more important, and rpis off most of the forest. That's why den. nobile, fimbriatum, strongylanthum, and many others are very rare in the wild. 

About the Authorized nurseries, it is not the correct wording... It is 'registered nurseries'. The official purposes of making registered nurseries/commercial breeding farms was to make CITES permits issuance easier.

In fact, paphs can be exported under two sources - apart from the jungle, pre-CITEs, and other stuff...

A for artificially propagated
D for artificially propagated coming from a registered nursery, or with special inspection by the CITES officer of a non-registered nursery, if the import country allows only D plants to be imported.

For plants traders, there is no need to be a registered nursery at all. In fact, it is HIGHLY dangerous to be registered.

Let's take Hourai, and another nursery far north in Malaysia. The former is registered, the latter is not. 

Hourai can export Paphiopedilum, source 'D'.

The other nursery can export Paphiopedilum as well, source 'A', because they are not registered. As it happens even in Germany, that nursery can get 'D' permits if it is required by some countries to allow the import of paphiopedilum - Japan being the case in point.

Now Hourai exports some stonei, and a few plants look wild collected. The second nursery does the same. Both shipment are caught.

Because Hourai is registered, the only 'benefit' of the registration is that Hourais is supposed to know PERFECTLY WELL about breeding, artificially propagated, their commercial stock. They are supposed, as required by this registration, to have propagated artificially themselves all the items they are selling/exporting. No excuses, Hourai gets a big fine, the owner or staff that attends the exhibition can go to jail. Their nursery can be closed. 

The second nursery, not registered, can say they did not know, their supplier did not inform to them, they are very happy that the customs explains to them that those plants are wild collected. They get a big fine, and end of the story.

The registration is just something highly dangerous to do, because it brings more responsibilities on the side of the exporter, but does not make anything easier. Quite a few CITES officers and governement offices advise against this registration, because it only bring heavier penalties in case of problem.


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## fibre (Nov 17, 2009)

Very interesting thread!


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## biothanasis (Nov 17, 2009)

fibre said:


> Very interesting thread!



But rather confusing... (not from the writers here)


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## baodai (Nov 19, 2009)

Lance Birk said:


> Unfortunately, nearly all those plants perished because there weren't buyers in place who could market the "illegal" plants to outside buyers. Ask Sanderianum. He wasn't there at the time (I don't think) but I'm sure he can give more details.
> 
> Ultimately, CITES carries a huge responsibility for causing this in the first place.


Lance,
I agree, the locate people collected these plants themselves. But if there is no demand then I don't think there is much supply. There were not CITES permit aproved by Vietnamese goverment until last several years, then how come plants only can be found in Vietnam is all over the world? 
It doesn't matter how you look at it, if it exported to another country illegaly then zillion years from now those plants have oringnal parent still illegal. 
Sanderianum can tell you that, all paph from vietnam is not allow to collect from the wild according to the "red book", or you can purchase one yourself. Now, I can you prove to you that all paph from vietnam export illegal, Can you prove to everyone that it is legal??? (if you are not then all hybrid also illegal)


Lance Birk said:


> The unfortunate ones who may have lost their life most likely were not familiar with jungle orchid collecting and should have stayed home instead of being caught up in the fury of "big money."


It seems like a real western man to me, (could be understanding as i have money to purchase thing from you, if you can get it for me, and i don't care if you are going to loose your life or not)
the bottom line is. Someone lost their life so now we can enjoy the hybrid
BD


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## biothanasis (Nov 20, 2009)

If you give the point a view from a distant look then it is both sides' fault! One side is the demanding customers and on the other side the local people who would like to benefit economically! 

On the other hand I would NOT demand something from someone if it were to cost his/her life!!!! So in this point I can understand baodai!!!!!

The thing is to consider wether this legislation is beneficial or not! Then things will get better!


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## valenzino (Nov 20, 2009)

I think Bodai is slightly wrong.
Unfortunately,the plants are collected also if there is not demand!!!I've seen in many countries in the tropics thousand plants dieing because no one wants.Many local peoples have compleately no money and no way to work,and try to make some money using resources from the wild...they collect everything....fruits,vegetables,wood(first reason for extinction done by companies with deforestation),rocks,orchids,kill animals etc...They risk their lifes everiday for themself like you do all the days when you drive your car!!!(Aska nd see how many of your friends have a friend or parent died in car accident).
After,when they are back home they try to sell what cannot be eat.
Also collecting orchids is a local bussiness and a bussines with near countries...many times not linked to the"flower market" itself...example collecting for medical purposes(I know there is a traditional chinese medicine receipt with paphs new shoots...they take new growth and throw away the rest of the plant!!!).
I understand what Bodai means with Illegal,and is true,in many cases but is only a matter of legislation and politics.
As Sanderianum said there are permits for rescue plants and export seized plants for reproduction and scientific purposes...so is always"how you read the law" that makes your plants legal or not....If we apply the way of thinking of Bodai,all the Paphs in the world are illegal and nearly all the Phrags(not kovachii)....and also all the other orchids(all orchids are CITES regulated and cannot be collected from the wild and sold)!!!!

When you say "Someone lost their life so now we can enjoy the hybrid".....this can be applyed to everithing in life...so I have to feel guilty even breathing!!!


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## Roth (Nov 20, 2009)

valenzino said:


> I think Bodai is slightly wrong.
> Unfortunately,the plants are collected also if there is not demand!!!I've seen in many countries in the tropics thousand plants dieing because no one wants.Many local peoples have compleately no money and no way to work,and try to make some money using resources from the wild...



That one is half correct too :evil: 
The plants are definitely collected if there is no demand at all, daily, weekly, monthly. People collect tranlienianum and helenae without purpose. helenae is now a 'traditional chinese medecine', so the market is high - and the price is around 10us/kg nowadays in bulk.

Now, it is not the local people who have no money, it is people who have quite some money, like the resellers from Hanoi, who non-stop order plants, and kill them within weeks, just in the hope that a foreigner will come and buy 10US a paph that they just bought for 5US/kg. 

The massive collection comes from the cheap price that Vietnamese traders force the Vietnameses suppliers to sell their plants - by kg instead of plant, and an enormous greed of the local Vietnamese traders for profit that lead to many plants to be collected. 

If they accepted to pay the collector 0.5US/plant, and sell it 10US, they would still make profit, but in their mind 'less', because they pay 0.5US/plant, translate to 100US/kg of paphiopedilum helenae, tranlienianum, or coccineum. The 'good business' according to them is to pay 5US/kg. From that, it is out of their minds to think that if they pay 5Us/kg and kill 20kg, because no one can pot so many plants in so short time, they are loosing more money tha buying 100 perfect plants from the collector every few months. They do not want to put added value to their jungle paphs, unlike the Malays, or the Thais.



> countries...many times not linked to the"flower market" itself...example collecting for medical purposes(I know there is a traditional chinese medicine receipt with paphs new shoots...they take new growth and throw away the rest of the plant!!!).



It is the first reason why so many orchids become extinct in Vietnam at the very present time, not the species trade at all.

The main problem is to educate the Vietnamese orchid traders about some simple trade concepts, and force them to follow it. 

100kg of paph coccineum that they will buy in Hanoi from the countryside grower for 500USD = 500USD.

1 foreigner pay 2-5 USD/plant, 100 plants, sold - and 100kg is about 20.000 plants, I have seen such shipments.

But, it is wrong to think that 20.000 x 5 USD = the profit of the trader, because:

* The trader does not know how to keep those plants alive more than a couple of weeks, no one in Hanoi does.
* There are too many to repot, cut, care and treat within a few days - coccineum MUST be repotted within a week or it is heavily set back.
* One day, they will not be able to press the countryside people in selling the coccineum for 5US, because there will be no more.

Most of the killed paphs just end up in the Vietnamese traders houses, dying, nowhere else, and because it's their wish. At that point, the foreign customers have nothing to do with that, because, even when there is no demand for delenatii for the last 5 years, the collectors and traders play with kilos and kilos and boxers of that species, killing everything, in the permanent hope that the wealthy foreigner that was mentionned 10 years ago and paid the delenatii 10US will come tomorrow...

I plan to write an orchid culture book for Vietnamese too, that would be useful, especially in the north, where the basic concepts are not understood, and kill many plants....


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## NYEric (Nov 20, 2009)

valenzino said:


> ..all the Paphs in the world are illegal and nearly all the Phrags(*not kovachii*!


 - no matter how you look at it, that statement is not correct!


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## baodai (Nov 20, 2009)

Sanderianum said:


> That 1 foreigner pay 2-5 USD/plant, 100 plants, sold - and 100kg is about 20.000 plants, I have seen such shipments


Maybe there is a problem here. In this case, there is one foreigner bought the plants. This gave local people hope they can sell again and make money. Then they go out collect more plants in hope another foreigner will purchase again, but the foreigner never came and plants die, then who fault is that??? It is both fault, correct?, here comes the chicken and the egg again !!! Regardless, if there is a foreigner purchase plants or not, the local will collect with limit number for medicine, Now the foreinger came (demand), the locate (supply) will collect more plants. It is still legal at this point for the local collecting plant as far as CITES concern. (even though it is not legal under local law). Then the bigger problem came when foreigner exports tons of plants without CITES. At the other end of the world, register nursiers etc somehow magicly make these plants legal (the prove for it, there are many plants can only exist in Vietnam and it has many gerneration of hybrids.


valenzino said:


> When you say "Someone lost their life so now we can enjoy the hybrid".....this can be applyed to everithing in life...so I have to feel guilty even breathing!!!


 Being growing up at where these plants collected, I spent years with local people. Some places still don't have electricity. I try to speak for the local and make aware of what is going. If you are angry at me that is fine, nothing i can do. The least i can do, is making our point arcoss. (even it is not in perfect english but it is understandable)
Thank you,
BD


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## luvsorchids (Nov 20, 2009)

Perhaps it would be better to focus on making things better and coming up with ideas to implement rather than sitting around pointing fingers and arguing about who is at fault for bad situations. That is seldom productive and just results in everyone getting upset.

Susan


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## Kavanaru (Nov 20, 2009)

luvsorchids said:


> Perhaps it would be better to focus on making things better and coming up with ideas to implement rather than sitting around pointing fingers and arguing about who is at fault for bad situations. That is seldom productive and just results in everyone getting upset.
> 
> Susan


 :clap::clap::clap::clap:


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## valenzino (Nov 20, 2009)

NYEric said:


> - no matter how you look at it, that statement is not correct!



I know,but its not so far from reality...



baodai said:


> Maybe there is a problem here. In this case, there is one foreigner bought the plants. This gave local people hope they can sell again and make money. Then they go out collect more plants in hope another foreigner will purchase again, but the foreigner never came and plants die, then who fault is that??? It is both fault, correct?, here comes the chicken and the egg again !!!



Can be true...but the problem is to use a "clever way" to do things.I've been in Kalimantan and Dayaks collect only few plants when are needed and not all plants even if there is no request.




baodai said:


> Regardless, if there is a foreigner purchase plants or not, the local will collect with limit number for medicine,...



In the case of "medicine"...limit number means all the plants around and still not enought....



baodai said:


> Now the foreinger came (demand), the locate (supply) will collect more plants. It is still legal at this point for the local collecting plant as far as CITES concern. (even though it is not legal under local law). Then the bigger problem came when foreigner exports tons of plants without CITES. At the other end of the world, register nursiers etc somehow magicly make these plants legal (the prove for it, there are many plants can only exist in Vietnam and it has many gerneration of hybrids.



Someway you are right,but I think the big problem is not the foreigner or the local that order or buy plants and export them(usually the foreigner buy from local that have planed collecting of orchids to do money and mostly all times have searched and attracted foreigners to do money).
The problem is "building the value of plants". and so try to build knowledge and colture about them as a valuable resource and so protect and produce them,choosing in the wild only the best ones.(finish this later a the end of the post).



baodai said:


> Being growing up at where these plants collected, I spent years with local people. Some places still don't have electricity. I try to speak for the local and make aware of what is going. If you are angry at me that is fine, nothing i can do. The least i can do, is making our point arcoss. (even it is not in perfect english but it is understandable)
> Thank you,
> BD



I understand and so you know that those peoples dont care about it.
I am absolutely not angry about you...take it easy ....This is a good way to discuss this difficult situations and examin the different point of view.The only way to find solutions is talk about things and thinks.
Your english is good.



luvsorchids said:


> Perhaps it would be better to focus on making things better and coming up with ideas to implement rather than sitting around pointing fingers and arguing about who is at fault for bad situations. That is seldom productive and just results in everyone getting upset.
> 
> Susan



Susan y're right.
In my opinion the big problem is the bad management of resources.CITES is only Burocracy.(Money is done buy the ones who have permits and they want to be the only ones many times).
If money will be put by CITES and local governments to promote real plants production in this countries,and to promote knowledge about the real value of them,local peoples and exporters/importers,will act in different way,try to have only High quality production and not bulk unknown cheap quality plants.
Every one that want to do Paph breeding knows that a mountain full of Paphs will do the work that you will do in 1000 years in a gigantic greenhouse if well managed....but peoples must know about it,and in those situation ignorance dominate....
So...who will push governments and CITES to build a program of real in/ex situ research/production in a "world wide way"?(the new plants www)...

Regards


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## biothanasis (Nov 20, 2009)

I think that you all are right about every topic! The thing is that both local people have a nice way to make a living (I mean plants/culture/conservation etc) and the environment should be treated as home and not as dollars, euro, gbp etc!!!

We know what is wrong, we know that people should be able to earn money, we know that the environment should be sustainable (as it is the only home we have....).

But, what do we do about it? What we can do about it??? I think govs, locals, scientists etc have "started renovating the roof in order to strengthen the base of a house"!!!!!


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## Roth (Nov 20, 2009)

baodai said:


> Maybe there is a problem here. In this case, there is one foreigner bought the plants. This gave local people hope they can sell again and make money. Then they go out collect more plants in hope another foreigner will purchase again, but the foreigner never came and plants die, then who fault is that???



I think it is more of a general behavior in Vietnam and China those days.

In fact, to explain the complete channel of wild collected orchids:

- The minorities, H'Mong mostly, but to a lesser extent Thai people, collect a lot of things, plants, animals, fungi, etc... from the forest. They go to the nearest 'trader' to sell what they have. At this step, the price is usually half a dollar to a dollar a kilogram of plants, orchids, others, whatever...

- The 'trader' has pending order, permanent, for as many orchids as he can get. One part comes from the medicinal trade, because the requirements by this medicinal trade are to collect as many plants as possible, with no upper limit. As an example, the pending order, as per the Chinese that I met last week, of dendrobium strongylanthum is up to 10 tons per year, this means 10.000 kg. So this trade is is the most destructive of all. At this stage, the price is from a few USD to 70-100USD for the rarer items. 

- Some Vietnamese people in Hanoi area specialize in selling orchids to the foreigners, or to the south - mostly Da Lat. They make pending orders, and ask their countryside suppliers to store as many plants as possible of the interesting items, mostly Paphiopedilum those days. People in Cao Bang must have a stock ready, as per the Hanoi people request of Paph., emersonii, helenae and tranlienianum all the time. When Hanoi people order, it must be delivered within a day or two, by the next bus preferably, but not later. If it is not sold, it is nothing, because the Cao Bang traders pay about half a dollar to a dollar to the minorities the tranlienianum, a big bag will be 20-30USD, maybe 50.

- In Hanoi, many are in big debt with the countryside people, because they order, get, and get many and many boxes of jungle plants that are never sold and die in Hanoi. If you go to Hanoi II - formerly Ha Tay, you can see at the very present time thousands of paph. tranlienianum on the ground, watered with tap water, heavily contaminated by phytophthora, and dying. If course, they will not sell a single plant of that, so it is lost money. 

- At the Lunar New Year time, Hanoi people get a lot of phalaenopsis from China - the production of Phalaenopsis in the North is nearly non existant. They pay about a dollar a plant in spike, with 1 flower open. They will send those to clear the past year's debt with their suppliers, of course at 3-4 USD about - 50-70000VND/plant.

So basically, the traders from Hanoi pay for each kilogram of tranlienianum less than a dollar, just because they will exchange. With that value, they are not willing to make any propagation, or stocks management, because it is plainly useless. And, having a tissue culture lab in Hanoi, I cannot make at all, and never, 200 paph tranlienianum plants for 1USD/200 plants. This is NOT going to happen anytime soon.

Now, the market for the medicinal plant is huge, use all the known species, and there is no upper limit to the quantities required. The Chinese have many, many pending orders. They even got CITES permits a couple years ago for some metric tons of wild collected dendrobium, you can check www.cites.org the database of trade. The amounts are highly impressive...

What they call dendrobium nobile is unknown to us...

As for the local species of orchids and their export, pretty much everything has been exported over the years with CITES, or with a phyto for the flasks. This opened the door to have everything from Vietnam legally, except the Paphiopedilum, and even so, some paph helenae flasks released in Japan were completely legal, with parents collected with a collecting permit about 10 years ago.




> Regardless, if there is a foreigner purchase plants or not, the local will collect with limit number for medicine,



The orders for medecine are clear: NO LIMIT. That's one of the major problems at present time, even if they try to hide the problem. The traders never want to speak about it openly in Hanoi, of course, but if you go to the countryside, they do not care that much, and explain, and show the bags of jungle plants as a proof, how massive is this trade. Have a look at the tons of medicinal orchids exported with a CITES from Vietnam at www.cites.org. China is not in that database, they prefer to ship by truck, and anyway dendrobium nobile in bulk is not covered by CITES anymore officially...



> Now the foreinger came (demand), the locate (supply) will collect more plants.



The key problem at present time, there are only traders in the north so far, no one grows any plant, and no one dares to propagate the plants at present time, in the north. The reasons are several, but the keypoint, the traders put money on the table, then they get money from their customers. It does not disturb them if some species are not available anymore, there are others to collect. 

The balance to understand, some species would be extinct permanently in a way if they were not propagated outside of Vietnam. Even Dalat orders huge quantities of paphs from the north, and other species, just to establish them, grow them, and a fair amount goes to the local pot-plant trade, or to the dustbin. I don't know how many paphiopedilum vietnamenese are in cultivation in Vietnam, but from the original wild plants I would guess, at the commercial growers places, less than 50 all over Vietnam. The seedlings, a few dozens, and that's all.

About educating the people to grow the plants, with their thinking that it is a trade, and not a work, it is pretty much hopeless, at least in the north. 

The other thing, they play with each other a lot. A box of 20kg of coccineum can travel between the Hanoi traders for a couple of weeks, 50.000VND/kg, sold 55.000VND/kg, exchanged for a value of 60.000VND/kg with the next one...

Case 1:
- The trader calls his supplier, who asks the H'Mong to collect Paphiopedilum coccineum in Phong Tho. The trader will pay 100USD for 20-50kg depending on the market price at that time. He can hope to sell it quickly. If coccineum is not available anymore, he has a customer for Phalaenopsis stobartiana or dendrobium falconeri for medicinal trade. Easy, fast money. He can pass some hybrids phals to pay the plants later.

Case 2:

- The trader wants to grow orchids, he has to invest in pots, potting mix, fertilizer, seedlings, and wait a couple of years to have art propagated plants for sale. He has to put real money on the table to grow the plants, not exchange with phalaenopsis themselves exchanged for jungle plants. He will never want to do that, because the cash has a slower turnover. If he has enough money, he will invest in boxes of jungle plants, and double his money every couple of days. Last, he does not have the knowledge or skill to grow orchids, and do not want to waste his time learning. He is a businessman, not a 'nha que' (their words) to pot plants and do like a farmer - I have heard that one many times, believe me -. Many of those 'businessmen' who trade orchids in the north have no consideration for people who grow them, because it is 'dirty'. Period.

Based on that, I don't know how the future will be for the propagation of orchids in Vietnam, but with such attitude, and the ample requests of the medicinal trade, I don't think anyone will feel the need to propagate something on the verge of extinction, because there is plenty of money to do with others species. As long as there will be one species commercially interesting in the North, it is hopeless to teach them or tell them about propagation. 

They are not even aware about the value of selected orchids, at least, they are, but they still do not see the need to grow seedlings, because their money is blocked. The keypoint is: the orchid traders do not want to block their money more than a few days. Growing orchids must be paid with hard cash, buying jungle plants can be paid with phalaenopsis in spike at the Tet time, and those phalaenopsis can be paid with some of the jungle plants. No money loss, and only pure profit, or nearly so...



> Being growing up at where these plants collected, I spent years with local people. Some places still don't have electricity. I try to speak for the local and make aware of what is going. If you are angry at me that is fine, nothing i can do. The least i can do, is making our point arcoss. (even it is not in perfect english but it is understandable)
> Thank you,
> BD



You are right to try, but I think most do not care at all. They live _carpe diem_, and based on that, except maybe one or two individuals, they will never try to follow another scheme than the one they have been taught, buy at 10.000VND, resell at 50.000VND. Furthermore, the countryside people rely on the Hanoi traders to sell their plants, and in Hanoi no one is willing to pay the right price for propagated or nursery grown plants from the countryside people.


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## biothanasis (Nov 21, 2009)

It sounds like an RPG game...!!! TY for the info Sand... it is kind of shocking from both sides...!


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## paphreek (Nov 21, 2009)

What's interesting about the U.S. amendment is the question: If the other countries accept the amendment, what are they going to do with all the flasked plants that have been legal in Europe and everywhere else in the world? Do these plants suddenly become illegal? For the rest of the world, the cat's already out of the bag. Does the U.S. expect everyone else to try and stuff the cat back in?


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## Ernie (Nov 21, 2009)

Well put, Ross. That about bottom lines it. 

-Ernie


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## Roth (Nov 22, 2009)

paphreek said:


> What's interesting about the U.S. amendment is the question: If the other countries accept the amendment, what are they going to do with all the flasked plants that have been legal in Europe and everywhere else in the world? Do these plants suddenly become illegal? For the rest of the world, the cat's already out of the bag. Does the U.S. expect everyone else to try and stuff the cat back in?



It is a bit more complicated, according to the national laws of each country.

But the plants will be stuck for sure anyway in the countries they are, means that the hangianum x godefroyae from Taiwan that they sent to Canada, and their progeny will not be exportable to the USA, or even back to Taiwan as an example.

Some countries will maybe ask for people to surrender the said plants, most will accept those plants as legal, but prohibit anything from only their trade to their propagation, to... I have seen that in the Netherlands, where it happened some years ago with paph. helenae. The art propagated plants were still legal to keep, but prohibited from being used for propagation or breeding, period...

The main question, who will win in that ? And the answer is highly interesting. 

Mainland China.

They 'discovered' about every Vietnamese paph species like hangianum, coccineum, delenatii, vietnamense... in China. At least some scientists that are very influent and have very strong ties to some Chinese traders. 

So, to sum it up, China will have, quite soon, the monopoly for the Vietnamese paph species, because the country will have officially declared that those species were found in China at least once.


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## smartie2000 (Nov 22, 2009)

Sanderianum said:


> Some countries will maybe ask for people to surrender the said plants, most will accept those plants as legal, but prohibit anything from only their trade to their propagation, to... I have seen that in the Netherlands, where it happened some years ago with paph. helenae. The art propagated plants were still legal to keep, but prohibited from being used for propagation or breeding, period...



This is really stupid.... prevention of propagation! Well that just inherently means more imporation of wild plants to fulfull some peoples desires. At least we can get hangianum seedlings here in Canada that are from flask (i.e. not from the wild) if we choose. Don't they dare make these flasks illegal as that is just counter protective of wild populations. The united states tend to influence us greatly and hopefully this amendment won't be put into place in Canada.


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## Roth (Nov 22, 2009)

smartie2000 said:


> This is really stupid.... prevention of propagation! Well that just inherently means more imporation of wild plants to fulfull some peoples desires. At least we can get hangianum seedlings here in Canada that are from flask (i.e. not from the wild) if we choose. Don't they dare make these flasks illegal as that is just counter protective of wild populations. The united states tend to influence us greatly and hopefully this amendment won't be put into place in Canada.



Yes, but if I am not wrong, and I am rarely when it comes to legal matters, the progeny of those seedlings will not be legal to export, this part is absolutely sure, but if they want to make it more 'rigid', not legal to sell or even to make...

There is a lot of things that I cannot explain on this forum, but plant and animal propagation is a matter of politics, not that much a matter of conservation.

As for the USA, they were right at first to ban the flasks and such of new species, because they had no other choice. They have been forced to do so, because indeed the parents of those flasks are illegal and some people forced the FWS to 'see' that those parents are illegals, so are the flasks produced with 'stolen property'.

It is a little bit like if you are parking 2 minutes at a forbidden place, there is a police officer, that does not care and understands that you are going to leave in 2 minutes.

Suddenly you have a guy with a camera screaming and shouting like hell at the policeman, threatening to get a video to his chiefs that he did not give you a fine even if you were doing something illegal, etc...

Even if the police officer does not care, because it is unimportant, he MUST give you a fine for those 2 min of parking, or he will have big problems, maybe he will be fired, because he broke the law too by not fining you. Maybe he accepted to have sexual intercourse with you the day before so he would not fine you, maybe you paid him a nickel, who knows... But the movie would be a proof that maybe he is corrupted. To avoid that, he has to read the law perfectly well, and do exactly by the law with you.

Now the cameraman can go to smoke some pot at the corner of the street and trash some cars with a shotgun, it is of no concern if no one can prove it.

Sum up: When the officials are forced to see, they are forced to act, no matter how dumb it is and no matter who force them to see.


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## Lanmark (Nov 22, 2009)

Sigh...if only we could, as a planet, put aside our stupid politics and idiotic laws, we could accomplish the most amazing things! Drop the restrictions, prohibitions and penalties adherent to the possession and propagation of these scarce species which are already in existence outside of their natural native habitats. Why should we care at this point if a rare endangered Paph plant living today in Canada, Sweden, or USA is or is not legal?! We should be grateful it still exists and that it's alive! We are wasting our resources by enforcing the laws outside of Vietnam as long as it remains impossible to enforce conservation and preservation laws within Vietnam. Instead we could be implementing vigorous and intelligent breeding and production programs around the world to vastly increase the numbers of these endangered plants in existence. Some could be reintroduced to the wild, some could be sold to collectors, and some could be placed in protective custodial conservatories. Certainly we have the knowledge and technology to develop methods of mass production while maintaining low environmental impact in order to feed the everpresent demands of traditional Chinese medicine as well. Jobs would be created. Hobbyists would be happy. Conservationists would be happy. Our ecosystem would benefit. Biodiversity would be maintained and these plants would no longer be endangered.

But of course, this is not the way of humanity. My way of thinking is simplistic, idealistic and not realistic. I might even be seen as stupid for suggesting such radical ideas. Why suggest something good when no one will ever lift a finger to make it happen? There will be countless excuses why this situation cannot be changed for the better. I know only too well that mankind cannot and will not rise above it all and finally do the right thing. We will debate these issues ad infinitum. We will bicker and fight, place blame and make excuses, regulate and legislate, violate and bend the rules, sneak and smuggle, buy and sell, horde and destroy, steal and trade, prosecute and vilify, and we will continue to be motivated by either greed or by fear and self-preservation. Meanwhile our morals suffer, our intercultural relations sour, and the environment and our natural resources will all continue to go to hell. Collectively we are worse than a monkey who can't get his fist out of a jar because he won't let go of the nut he is holding onto. The shame of it all makes me wish I were a dog or a cat or just about anything else rather than a human being. I feel guilty for even owning a Stereochilus dalatensis, and I'm enormously grateful at this point that I don't have a single Paph in my collection.


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## SlipperFan (Nov 22, 2009)

I don't look at it that way. I'm very happy to have the orchids I have in my collection. They were made available to me legally, and I am doing my best to keep them alive and healthy. Who knows what will happen to all the orchids in the wild anymore. While I think we should all do what we can to preserve natural habitat (like donate to orchid conservation), and I think CITES is not helpful for flora and should be changed, I'm living in the world as it is now. And I hope I'm doing the best I can in it.


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## Lanmark (Nov 22, 2009)

SlipperFan said:


> I don't look at it that way...I'm living in the world as it is now. And I hope I'm doing the best I can in it.



This is because you are more wise and unflappable than me... :wink:

...whereas I  (<<< that's me) get easily upset at the absurdity of it all and soon begin to feel quite hopeless.


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## Roth (Nov 23, 2009)

Lanmark said:


> We are wasting our resources by enforcing the laws outside of Vietnam as long as it remains impossible to enforce conservation and preservation laws within Vietnam.



That's true. The main problem being that Vietnam shares a very large border with China on one side, so smuggling is a child play.



> Certainly we have the knowledge and technology to develop methods of mass production while maintaining low environmental impact in order to feed the everpresent demands of traditional Chinese medicine as well.



Actually we don't have the technology, because it would require to produce some hundred thousands plants, grow them, and harvest them, for a very cheap price of few dollars a kg, to some dozen US/kg. I can tell you that 1 kg of dendrobium gregulus is around 300 plants, let's say 100USD sales price to China - that's the price the Chinese buys, but the Vietnamese traders would not pay more than 5 US/kg to the minorities. Who would be willing to grow some tons of dendrobium gregulus for 0.3US/plant? No one. And if one thinks about supplying the suppliers of wild orchids for the traditionnal medecine, I discussed with them, they are VERY clear. If someone try to touch their market by propagating or offering to the Chinese directly, they can drop the price to a few US/kg to kill that competitor.

Paph. helenae new growth is sold at the very present time USD 20/kg, this week price, because it's the season, so the prices are down right now. They go up during the wet season, as it is more difficult to collect the plants. Only the new, mature, unbloomed growth. It makes for 1kg about 500 of them. 

Do you really think in this world anyone is willing to grow and sell half a thousand helenae for 20US? And it is not 1kg we are talking about, but several bags of 40kg of new growths. The remaining of the plant is discarded, so are the roots.

The key problem to keep in mind, there is NO legal way in this world to supply the medicinal trade legally with propagated plants. The prices are too cheap, and one would have to give away a lot of money for that purpose. The quantities required would need some millions plants to be grown just to take the new growth and destroy them after, of maybe 50 different species.


The nursery should be very huge, and with considerable financial losses just to 'save the plants in the wild'. When there would be no more sponsor, they would just go and collect in the jungle whatever remains. We can delay the outcome of this story of a few years, 2-3, maybe 5, by investing huge amount of money. But the outcome, in 10 years from now : NO MORE PLANTS IN THE JUNGLE. There is nothing that can be done, not even regulations or law enforcement. The profit is high enough, if the police catch up a network, and the Vietnam police did several times, 20 will appear immediately. When they blocked the helenae exports last year for a month from Cao Bang area, as soon as they did not block, all the trucks went to deliver the helenae for medicinal trade. They spent considerable amount of time, did not find anything, because most of the storages are in eagle nest position, they can see the road as far as 5-10km, made the price increase because of the 'risk', and that's it.

This is really the problem with orchid poaching at present time. And Chinese, as well as to a lower extent Koreans, do the same in Laos and Burma, extensively. In Burma, they even got a permit to collect for medicinal trade huge amounts, so there it is legal to strip everything.


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## Paul (Nov 23, 2009)

That's why the only way today to save all those species is probably to make the trade free for all orchid species. There will be many in private collections, that could be propagated (and selected) freely. When the plants almost (or completely) disappear in nature they remain in collections... maybe one (very far!!) day could some of the children return to the saved forest (if enough genetic diversity remains for they survive)


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## Roth (Nov 23, 2009)

Paul said:


> That's why the only way today to save all those species is probably to make the trade free for all orchid species. There will be many in private collections, that could be propagated (and selected) freely. When the plants almost (or completely) disappear in nature they remain in collections... maybe one (very far!!) day could some of the children return to the saved forest (if enough genetic diversity remains for they survive)



That is at present time the only way. Many people do not understand the following

- Smuggling, for the medicine trade or for the hobby trade is IMPOSSIBLE to stop, at any cost, no matter what is done. The outcome can be delayed, but never stopped.There are dozen of ways to smuggle things in and out, and dozen of networks. 

- The deforestation is going on too. Even in Vietnam, they are logging, clearing a lot of land for the rice. In Sarawak, they made a road at the base of many mountains, that actually cleared a small path in the forest, but enough to get winds to dry up the area, and make a complete draining of the forest that is above the road, extending slowly but steadily up to the top of the mountains.

- The other problem, there are not many good growers, and not many people will follow those growers after they die, in 1 year or 60 years. From that onwards, it is likely that some species will disappear forever, from culture and from the wild, in the next 50-100 years, most likely earlier. 

- 'propagating is conserving the species'. How many times did I hear that. It is unfortunately partially bullshit. propagating is delaying an outcome that we know will happen sooner or later for many species. How many plants from the 70's, 80's and 90's are still alive? How many gave progeny that is still here with us today? A dime out of the whole.

Of course, I see people coming with the rothschildianum story, blabla, seedlings. Rothschildianum is no big deal, easy to grow, wild plants easy to establish too, easy to sow, easy to raise, easy to breed.

Sanderianum from the 80's ? Nearly no progeny around, and none of the new seedlings come from those plants at all.

Argus, ciliolare, curtisii, etc... ? Nearly no progeny from the dozen of thousands of plants collected from 1900 until 1990. No progeny at all even for ciliolare, the few flasks done here and there are made with more recent plants. 

The delenatii original plant? Disappearing, there may be some seedlings left here and there, a couple divisions, some plants at hobbyists place, most of it has been replaced by the new delenatii and its progeny.

Many other species, such as phal maculata, etc... have been collected by the thousands. I have seen maybe 3000 seedgrown Phalaenopsis maculata in bloom at the orchid zone in 1996. None alive today nowhere, and none gave any progeny or seedlings as far as I know.

I think that conservation by propagation will succeed for maybe 2-3% of the species on a 20 years lifespan, maybe 2-3 per thousand over 100 years, but in 500 years, I seriously doubt there will be many paph species around in cultivation or in the wild. 

Just look carefully at the history of orchid species, and orchid hybrids. Most of what was available from 1900 until 2000 disappeared in the orchid heaven. A couple nurseries have mother plants from before 1990, but it's peanuts compared to the wide range of species that have been introduced in cultivation over the last 20 years. As of today, it is still possible to get jungle plants to make seedlings, but when there will be no more in the jungle, it will be gone-gone. Don't think ever that there are f2 of many paph species. There are F2 from the wild of maybe 20 species out of the whole genus. And paphs are a much smaller problem compared to other species.

Dendrobium senile, trigonopus scabrilingue? None from seed.

In the significant case, take dendrobium scabrilingue, the old plants with the dark orange-red lip. Thousands were collected, I even remember flasks 10 years ago. Now it is impossible to find. For the people who have less knowledge, there is still dendrobium scabrilingue available in the trade, so the species is not 'extinct'. For others, they will realize that despite thousands of den. scabrilingue collected with the red lip, and flasks distributed, it disappeared. 

The same applies to Phalaenopsis appendiculata. Periodically there is a shortage of phal appendiculata flasks, and the flasks usually come from jungle seed caps sold by Malaysia... Hourai has sold thousands of seedlings, young plants, and blooming size plants, but few remain alive in this world.

Or take the phalaenopsis lowii blue. I have seen those plants, and the albinos too, in bloom at Krairit in Bangkok. Hundreds of flasks were made. How many of its progeny or of the original plants are alive today ? None. Only the hybrid with doritis pulcherrima blue x lowii blue remains, and not many plants around...

Those are living proof that conservation through propagation does not work. We have lost thousands of strains, both hybrids - though not that much in paphs, but think about the cattleyas, phals, etc... - and species. I do not see any reason why it will not happen with the entire species.

I think the worst problem will be with things like sanderianum or ooii. Those species need to be collected again periodically from the wild to have mature plants for propagation, except in a very few nurseries.

Another thing that is very clear, take some specific cultivars, like lawrenceanum hyeanum, curtisii sanderae, callosum sanderae. They are, at the very present time, completely lost in cultivation. Nowhere in this world have we a real lawrenceanum album, even if that plant was alive from the XIXth century until 1997 - I don't know if Tom Kalina still has his plant ? - Curtisii sanderae is completely gone, and callosum sanderae, I know of 1 plant in a private collection in Europe, genuine. All gave at a time or another, a lot of seedlings through selfings, but all of those are gone too. Those 3 varieties are therefore nearly extinct in cultivation, and soon completely lost forever.

For those who wonder how a scabrilingue should look like, here is a picture of a pale one compared to the original 'Royal Strain'. Imagine a much darker orange-red color of the lip, and you get a picture about what we have lost forever in cultivation.


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## paphioboy (Nov 23, 2009)

Wow! I didn't know dend scabrilingue has an orange lip.. most pictures I've seen show blooms with greenish lips..


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## Lanmark (Nov 23, 2009)

You've made my point exactly, Sanderianum. There are a million reasons why this situation will never improve, and every single one of them is because mankind as a whole is unreliable, irresponsible, and hopelessly driven by greed, ignorance and a lack of willingness to change. We will throw every excuse and every reason into why it is not possible to save these rare plants instead of being proactive and creative and finding ways to make it happen. If mankind really truly wanted to solve this problem, we could. The stakes are simply not high enough to motivate us to do it. Greed rules the world. The few who are willing to try are smothered by those who are not. It would be easier to organize flamethrower expeditions into the wetlands and forests than to do something positive and constructive.


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## etex (Nov 23, 2009)

Wow! A very thought-provoking and informative thread! Can more be done to create conservation areas in the orchids natural habitats so we do not loose them in the wild? I spent 16 years naturalizing as many plants as possible in our 10 acres of land and it is rewarding to know that the plants will live on after I am gone.


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## Roth (Nov 23, 2009)

etex said:


> Can more be done to create conservation areas in the orchids natural habitats so we do not loose them in the wild?



Useless for two reasons...

- When the species become rare, who cares about conservation areas and such? They will be poached from there, that's it. As they become rare, they are more valuable, and therefore the risk to collect them is more affordable.

- A stable environment is required, and at present time no place in this world is safe. In Tam Dao, a big hill collapsed during a landslide, wiping out all the gratrixianum daoense last year. End of the story. And it was predictible, as they cleared some trees down. Preserving a few hills is useless, because the humidity will drop if the hills nearby are cleared for whatever purpose. To preserve plants in the wild requires huge areas to be completely protected, and it is simply impossible to protect them from the minorities. I have witnessed Iban in Borneo, and H'Mongs in Phong Tho climbing and coming down at light speed hills and outcrops. If they decided to collected in a protected area - and many do - they can go in and out, the police would still be investigating if they entered, where actually they would have finished the job long time ago and be back home.

And there is another reason, a very weird one... The area where Paph. hangianum grows as an example is extremely, extremely well documented at the beginning of the 20th century, including some inconspicuous liparis, and even villosum. 

How the hell those people who made many expeditions could have missed hangianum at that time? For sure because hangianum was not here at that time, and maybe because hangianum did not exist yet... I am not crazy, just thinking to find a logical explanation, and that's the only one that comes to mind. 

Some species could have evolved much, much faster than we can think of. The same applies for quite a few orchid species. Area prospected for many years a century ago, and we just find out a new species here.

I got a case in point. Lilium poilanei, endemic to Sa Pa area. The samples and herbariums specimens show a flower that is very distinctive, and there are several herbarium specimens, several line drawings, a couple paintings, and several detailed description fron the early 20th century. Yes, there are dozen of thousands of lilium growing in the original locations mentioned a hundred years ago. Except that they are not poilanei, they are clearly... lilium nepalense. Either half a dozen different, unrelated people a hundred years ago were completely blind and described the outside of the flower as red, made fake herbarium specimens, fake descriptions... or a hundred years ago this lilium colony was like that, and now it has evolved in nepalense... Strange story isn't that ?


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## Lanmark (Nov 23, 2009)

etex said:


> Wow! A very thought-provoking and informative thread! Can more be done to create conservation areas in the orchids natural habitats so we do not loose them in the wild? I spent 16 years naturalizing as many plants as possible in our 10 acres of land and it is rewarding to know that the plants will live on after I am gone.



I like how you think and take action, etex 
Those of us who cannot naturalize plants on our own land can do as Dot suggested: Donate to conservation groups.
No money? No problem! Give of your time and your talent. 
___________________________

Sanderianum has raised some valid points regarding the pitfalls of using propagation to preserve the species. I say let's try even harder then to find real solutions to these pitfalls. Let's aim for a higher success rate than what we've achieved in the past.

Regarding the Traditional Chinese Medicine trade and the widespread depletion and destruction which results from it:

Education and peer pressure are useful tools in changing the way people think about these practices. Hardcore political and economic pressures could come into play, too, but these must be tempered with concessions and a spirit of goodwill if the world is to remain civil. Research to find popular yet viable alternatives could help the situation too. There will always be a few who will not be dissuaded from having tiger bones or musk pods, Dendrobium gregulus or Paph helenae in their medicine chests, but I believe with enough education, pressure to change, and development of alternative products, the demand for endangered species can be greatly diminished. CITES is part of this effort to bring change, but at least as far as orchids are concerned, it seems to have gone madly awry. I hope a cacophony of raised voices and an abundance of reasoned argument will bring positive change to the current CITES conundrum.
___________________________

As hopeless as I feel about this situation, I still believe it is worth the effort to speak out, to take action, and to do something useful which will help improve the current state of affairs.


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## Roth (Nov 23, 2009)

Lanmark said:


> Regarding the Traditional Chinese Medicine trade and the widespread depletion and destruction which results from it:
> 
> Education and peer pressure are useful tools in changing the way people think about these practices.
> 
> Research to find popular yet viable alternatives could help the situation too. There will always be a few who will not be dissuaded from having tiger bones or musk pods, Dendrobium gregulus or Paph helenae in their medicine chests, but I believe with enough education, pressure to change, and development of alternative products, the demand for endangered species can be greatly diminished.



Asia is a mixture of modernism and tradition. The tradition will always be respected no matter the education. The people who use bear bile, rhino horn - still very popular here, smuggled from Africa monthly -, orchids for traditional medicine are very well educated, but they will rely on the tradition side to follow this kind of medicine. Most think we do not understand how good this traditional medicine is, most think that it does not work if they do not believe in it. And when you have cancer and should die according to the doctors, wouldn't you risk to take some of that rhino horn or bear bile, or dendrobium strongylanthum to be saved ???

CITES is completely useless regarding this kind of trade, because CITES is paperwork and good wills, the officers that enforce CITES in every country cannot watch everything everywhere all the time, and smuggling has always be more powerful than anything else. Think about drug smuggling. Still the same amount everywhere worldwide, and the police has never, ever, done anything that really slowed down the trade, just delayed a bit here and there something. But the supply is nearly constant, one has to be realistic...

Be hedonistic, that's the only way to cope with that situation...


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## baodai (Nov 23, 2009)

People loves to blame others. In USA, people thing FWS and CITES is strickly, I think organization like AOS, HCC etc is really discriminate ... I hope these oragnization will get it straight before they can finger point at someone else. For example, Paph that orignate from Vietnam's illegal to export. It is legal to some nurseries just because someone from that country make them legal. Then if you bring a paph to HCC, AOS they will require you to have papper so they can judge your plant. But did they forget all paph from Vietnam is illegal? So, does it matter if you have paper or not? it is still illegal??? So, why AOS require you have to have paper to judge? 
I will sit quiet at the conner from now on after i'm making my second point:
For years some species distinct from the wild and new species found. So, Does it matter if the local people kill plants that from their region? (for years they have been doing this, that is how they know how to support their family, Can the outsider come in and tell them to change the way the live!!!). So, why the people from outside the country want to come in and tell the local what to do? They will collect plants and no one can stop them. It doesn't matter if there will be paph in the wild or not, New species will be found. You can't educate the local, but you can educate the outsider for not purchase plants from the local. I hope some of you realize that, no one come can come into your house and tell you what to eat, how to dress etc, but now you want to come into our village and tell us what to do ...
Good day all 
Peace,
BD


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## Lanmark (Nov 23, 2009)

Sanderianum said:


> Asia is a mixture of modernism and tradition. And when you have cancer and should die according to the doctors, wouldn't you risk to take some of that rhino horn or bear bile, or dendrobium strongylanthum to be saved ???
> 
> ...
> 
> Be hedonistic, that's the only way to cope with that situation...



If someone told me I would be cured of my cancer if I twisted the head off of a cute little baby, I wouldn't do it! By the same token I won't take rhino horn, musk pods, tiger bones, bear bile or Dendrobium strongylanthum either. I'm not that egocentric. Hedonism is what got us to where we are today. Don't get me wrong...it's always fun to be a little bit naughty!  :evil:



baodai said:


> People loves to blame others. In USA, people thing FWS and CITES is strickly, I think organization like AOS, HCC etc is really discriminate ... I hope these oragnization will get it straight before they can finger point at someone else.
> 
> I will sit quiet at the conner from now on after i'm making my second point:
> For years some species distinct from the wild and new species found. So, Does it matter if the local people kill plants that from their region? (for years they have been doing this, that is how they know how to support their family, Can the outsider come in and tell them to change the way the live!!!). So, why the people from outside the country want to come in and tell the local what to do? They will collect plants and no one can stop them. It doesn't matter if there will be paph in the wild or not, New species will be found. You can't educate the local, but you can educate the outsider for not purchase plants from the local. I hope some of you realize that, no one come can come into your house and tell you what to eat, how to dress etc, but now you want to come into our village and tell us what to do ...
> ...



I don't point the finger of blame at any one specific group. It is a large collection of circumstances and actions which over time have created the unfortunate and messy situation with which we are faced today. Just because you do not understand the logic of AOS, for example, does not mean AOS is 100% wrong in all of its policies. Just because I don't understand everything you say doesn't mean that everything you say and believe is 100% wrong either. Dealing in absolutes is a dangerous mindset. This is what I have been trying to point out all along. In order for our world to improve, we must all be willing to talk and change and compromise and work together to improve our condition. Simply debating the issues is not enough. We must work together to find viable solutions and then find a way to implement them through mutual respect and cooperation.

When someone teaches me, I am willing to learn. I am always open to new ideas and better ways of doing things. It is not a matter of one group telling another group how they must absolutely do things this way or that way. It is a matter of being shown a new and better way of doing things and being shown why it is better. This is known as "education" not "dictatorship". When it is done in a friendly, helpful and hopeful manner and when it provides the "locals" with new and exciting viable alternatives which provide new income opportunities, it can and will work. I believe over time a majority of people can and will change for the better if given the opportunity to do so. I think to flatly state "you can't educate the local" is simply absurd. Why settle for a self-imposed mindset of impossibility? If we try hard enough, if we offer them something better, if we provide them a new and better way to make a living, most of them can and will learn it. Just because they have been doing something the same way for fifty or a hundred or a thousand years doesn't mean they lack the ability to adapt. We all have brains and free will and we know how to use them. It's all about how people are approached and what attitude we project. Telling them what to do will only make them feel defensive and rebellious. Help them to improve their lives, however, and we will create friendships which last a lifetime. Surely we can do this while also promoting a new way of living which will help to preserve our planet and all the species which live herein.

I don't think you should sit quietly in the corner from now on, baodai :wink: I think your opinions and ideas are always valuable and provocative! I see and learn new things from what you say. Hopefully you see and learn new things from me as well. Gosh how boring would it be without a diverse group of people here to hash things over, share ideas, agree and disagree?! The free exchange of ideas and opinions is priceless! Generosity in friendship is everything! :clap:


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## smartie2000 (Nov 23, 2009)

its a cultural issue. People still take sharks fin, and I highly doubt that there are any benefits. Some medicines are taken for its prestige and just because you have the $$! I don't know if that is the case with orchids.

I just googled and I realized that I've seen Dendrobium officinale in herb shops! They wrapped up the psuedobulb canes into balls.

Is there any scientific literature on the benefits of using orchid medicine? I am sure they have been studied, given that orchids are so popular. (though there are problems with scientific literature since herbs are often mixed into a medicinal concoction, sometimes in specified amounts, and individual herbs don't work the same. But scientists want to study specific herbs, maybe down to a specific compound.)


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## Lanmark (Nov 23, 2009)

smartie2000 said:


> its a cultural issue. People still take sharks fin, and I highly doubt that there are any benefits. Some medicines are taken for its prestige and just because you have the $$! I don't know if that is the case with orchids.
> 
> I just googled and I realized that I've seen Dendrobium officinale in herb shops! They wrapped up the psuedobulb canes into balls.
> 
> Is there any scientific literature on the benefits of using orchid medicine? I am sure they have been studied, given that orchids are so popular. (though there are problems with scientific literature since herbs are often mixed into a medicinal concoction, sometimes in specified amounts, and individual herbs don't work the same. But scientists want to study specific herbs, maybe down to a specific compound.)



TCM is fascinating! I respect the cultural and historical aspects of it and even why some may find prestige in its use. My understanding is that it is largely based on achieving balances in the body's Qi (Chi) or energy, blood/fluids and elemental properties. I am of the opinion that this type of medicine is richly layered with many beneficial practices amidst a lot of superstition and lore. I would be hesitant, though, to dismiss out of hand many of the substances and practices used in TCM without ample scientific proof to support such dismissal. I believe I have benefitted from some of the traditional type Chinese medical practices including acupuncture. Some would argue that any benefit I received was only a product of my own belief. Personally speaking, I have no desire to use a medicine which was produced at the steep expense of an endangered living creature. This is what I choose for myself. What others do is their choice. My hope is that we can find a way to satisfy everyone's needs without obliterating other species in the process. I look to the petri dish in the laboratory and hope that someday all these things can be cloned and artificially produced for the benefit of everyone.

I don't know of any scientific evidence supporting the use of orchids in medicine, but I don't know of any evidence disproving it either. Plants are well-known for the wide variety of complex small molecules which they produce. Many of these are found nowhere else in the world and hold great scientific potential. Many are still waiting to be discovered. Such is the tragedy of worldwide deforestation which causes the extinction of so many undocumented species of plants.

Does anyone here see any real hope of getting the CITES language changed to better solve the problems we face today? I'm not talking about history and who did what, when they did it, whether or not it was legal then, and whether or not that makes it legal now. Getting beyond that blame game and getting beyond who has this or that species in their possession, is it feasible to any of you that progress could be made in tweaking the CITES rules to better promote the survival today of the many endangered species in question?


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## biothanasis (Nov 23, 2009)

Lanmark said:


> Getting beyond that blame game and getting beyond who has this or that species in their possession, is it feasible to any of you that progress could be made in tweaking the CITES rules to better promote the survival today of the many endangered species in question?



No...simply no!!!

Endangered species' survival depends on more factors than mere trading! Many species are engangered just because their habitat is shrinking/destroyed! Others cause they are hunted to death! Others from overcollection! And many more...

CITES focuses on one factor but I do not think that such a legislation can protect anything, just control trading!!!


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## Lanmark (Nov 23, 2009)

biothanasis said:


> CITES focuses on one factor but I do not think that such a legislation can protect anything, just control trading!!!



Ah, I see, ok. So do you think it would be best to just abandon CITES altogether? Probably this won't happen, will it :/


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## parvi_17 (Nov 23, 2009)

Personally I feel CITES is useless. As far as I can tell, it has done nothing to stop or decrease overcollection. If anything, it has made it worse. I can't say that I have the solution, but there has to be a better alternative to this. This is just frustrating. If Canada adopts this amendment, I will puke.


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## gonewild (Nov 23, 2009)

Government control over resources has never solved any problem without creating 10 problems more in it's place.

As has been pointed out in this thread no amount of laws, rules or wishful thinking will stop the inevitable.

If you want rural people to stop foraging in the forest send them enough food so that their children have as much to eat as your children do. Then you will see way less desire to go into the forest to try to collect something to exchange in the market. "Simple living" people do not work their butts off to collect plants for a few cents per kilo because they enjoy it, they have no other options to gain money. A man with a full stomach would rather lay around and sleep rather than risk his life in the jungle.

As far as the medicinal use of the plants no one will ever be able to grow the plants commercially to replace wild collected. In reality it is not the ecnomics and high cost of production. It is not the chemical content of the plants the healers are after it is the "healing spirits" the wild plants contain. To those that believe, captive raised plants lack the spiritual powers of wild plants and just won't ever be as good. So as long as ancient indigenous faith and knowledge exists wild plants will always be collected to heal mind, body and soul.


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## valenzino (Nov 23, 2009)

To my eyes the problem is always one...money.
CITES is only burocracy.If CITES want to do something have only to use all the money take up with permits etc to propagate the endangered species and not to "enforce" that is only waste of money...or better political new jobs...and do 0% directly(someone asked this at WOC Dijon CITES Concference and the answer was SILENCE!!!)...so is only...as we say in italy MAFIA....is easy to control the market that way....
everyone can do something but no one really does because CITES prevent it...unfortunately I think that...if you examin all the possibilities,...CITES is only helping inlegal trade and plants extinction(Dams build where plants rescue is forbidden and impossible to export plants that can be saved in a deforested area where a new "luxury resort is built")...and very important...remember(no one say here) CITES focus more on wood(billions US$ bussiness) and animals.....
Peoples will always do what "they can do" for liveing...
and plants are down in the food chain...so in reality is only "orchids world" that complain sometimes about this problems ...means nothing to peoples that think that"they are important"....everyone hold strong his position....and dont see all sides of what is around them.

My proposal is...a tax can be putted on the plants on customers(not producers..if this happens the market will collapse) paper works etc...and all the money can be used to produce a World wide campaign orchids rescue,reproduction and production(the "opera must have an income,if not,cannot exist)...would you be so upset to pay 0.10 € for each plant you have?maybe receiving back(at your expenses) the "plant you never had"?
So....peoples asking for a solution...here is one...,who will agree and help?....and who will turn around?
Regards


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## cnycharles (Nov 24, 2009)

sanderianum or whoever said that alot of this depends on politics was right. as was heard here before by someone else, a main chinese player made the fuss with cites that slippers were very endangered and should be cites 1. they are the same ones who have 'found' tons of slippers found in other countries that aren't supposed to be tradeable, so they have access to those slippers. the u.s. wants to keep china happy so they try to suggest and support cites interpretations that will best help their positions, which ends up being china's position. unfortunately, positions change very frequently depending on what politics are being presented at any particular time, so it ends up being there are poor people who collect these things because they need some way to get food (already pointed out by someone else), and can be swayed and manipulated by those that already have the wealth and influence and want to keep it/get more. there are many things behind scenes that are only about power influence and all that sort of thing by few people, and that is often why when it seems like something that should make the most sense is never done, is because the few have much different agendas than every one else (meaning they don't have to scrounge the forest trying to find a way to survive). 

these things are just plants, and we like them but there are lots of plants. to the few, they are just little bits to be used, moved here and there... there is no real concern that something may not be around tomorrow or a new cure may never happen, though the rest of us do. here in the u.s we used to be prideful that we were 'Citizens', now we are just 'consumers'. if someone might think that I don't care about conserving orchids here or someplace else, that's wrong as well. I do my little part to try and educate people in this area about native orchids and why not to dig them up or make sure they buy them from someone who didn't dig them up illegally. also like already pointed out, unless someone can feed the people who go into the forest to dig up or pull down these interesting plants, then they shouldn't expect that the plants should come first. if someone is starving, all bets are off, no matter how much I would like every species to survive. if you lend someone a hand so that they have food, they may end up being very willing to help protect some interesting plants... but not while they're starving. it's very easy to say that 'something should be done' when we have enough to eat or have a roof over our heads; can you imagine when settlers and trappers were first moving through the eastern/mid-western north american region, and there was a blizzard; they had no food and then they happened to dig in the black wet ground where their wagon got stuck, and found a whole bunch of tubers of cypripedium candidum and decided that to survive they needed to eat them? how do you think they would have felt or responded if someone from eastern transylvania said 'oh no those are the rare lsasakfh; slipper; don't touch' (mildly expressed)? I believe the conservator-minded probably would have been shot. unless you can meet or find a way for those in need to cover their needs it's impossible to expect that they should care about things much less tangible to their survival. other's shoes need to be worn to understand why some things just aren't reasonable, even if it seems reasonable to us (who are well-fed). I sympathize with locals and sincere hobbyists; I just don't see a solution. things that make the most sense are the least likely thing to ever get accomplished (though I don't say that meaning that those that are trying to help should stop, just that I don't see well maybe an immediate solution....)
well enough rambling by me! :\


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## biothanasis (Nov 24, 2009)

cnycharles said:


> ....other's shoes need to be worn to understand...



Yes yes...!!!! This is why we are today where we are!!! There is no care for the one next to us!!! Egoism, selfishness, arrogance & money!!!! If this pattern changes then everything can change...


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## Mark Sullivan (Dec 6, 2009)

CITES regulates trade in endangered species. One way to get around CITES is to make the species no longer endangered in their native habitat.

CITES has many problems and it is not going to stop endangered species from going extinct. It is only a trade agreement.

Change happens on step at a time. 

http://www.orchidconservationcoalition.org/


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## smartie2000 (Dec 6, 2009)

Mark Sullivan said:


> CITES regulates trade in endangered species. One way to get around CITES is to make the species no longer endangered in their native habitat.
> 
> CITES has many problems and it is not going to stop endangered species from going extinct. It is only a trade agreement.
> 
> ...



So all orchids are endangered?! I that that it is not likely the case, but a gross generalization


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## parvi_17 (Dec 6, 2009)

smartie2000 said:


> So all orchids are endangered?! I that that it is not likely the case, but a gross generalization



It is a great misconception. A relatively high percentage of orchids are endangered in part of their distribution, but it is not true that all orchids are endangered. 

An example is that it is commonly believed that Cypripedium species are endangered. In Canada at least, only one is endangered, C. candidum (which is a sad fact). The rest are somewhat rare because they have specific habitat needs, but they can be very frequent in localized areas.


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## smartie2000 (Dec 6, 2009)

Well, my parviflorum gets pollinated each year, and I left a seed pod last season  I saw Cypripedium (likely Parviflorum) get all trampled on in a bike trail this year, the only reason I knew was because I recognized the crumpled leaves. I don't know if this plant will have survived. so human activities are destructive, some more destructive than any orchid collector (deforestation).

Yup many orchids are just localized to specific niches. So it maybe a matter of defining endangered


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## ejchow84 (Jan 1, 2010)

I can't remember if it was said in this thread (cause it was an awfully long thread and I don't want to tread through it again >_<), but orchids are in general "rare". But I think the question is whether we should consider rare things endangered? I think they're two different things. (sorry if someone said this already... there are a lot of posts to read through!)

Ok, with regards to the update on CITES, what does this mean for the Vietnamese Paph species? After the amendment passes, will it be more legal or illegal to import these in flask? I know there was a lot of discussion about this, but I can't seem to sort through which is what. 

Thanks guys! This is all such great information. You guys should come together to write a book!


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## baodai (Jan 1, 2010)

ejchow84,
The first question you should ask is: Will the Vietnamese goverment make paph legally for trade? As i said before there is a "red book" from Vietnam. According to this book, paph is illegal for trade. If paph is illegal for trade then there is nothing CITES (amendment) can do to make it legal until the Vietmanese goverment change their law
BD


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## baodai (Jan 1, 2010)

A quote from Jerry Lee Fischer of Orchids Limited
"If illegal aliens come into the US and have a child that child is an automatic US citizen. Plants IN VITRO should be considered in a similar light". 
more from his website:
http://www.orchidweb.com/cites_orchids.aspx
BD


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## gonewild (Jan 2, 2010)

baodai said:


> A quote from Jerry Lee Fischer of Orchids Limited
> "If illegal aliens come into the US and have a child that child is an automatic US citizen. Plants IN VITRO should be considered in a similar light".
> more from his website:
> http://www.orchidweb.com/cites_orchids.aspx
> BD




If you extend "human" rights to plants you will have to consider that it may be immoral to keep them as slaves in your collection. Or perhaps plants have a right to not be eaten?


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## NYEric (Jan 4, 2010)

OY!


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## John M (Jan 5, 2010)

gonewild said:


> If you extend "human" rights to plants you will have to consider that it may be immoral to keep them as slaves in your collection. Or perhaps plants have a right to not be eaten?




That's not the same thing at all. Being a US citizen is not a human right. It is a legal status; which is Jerry's point.

Jerry is skillfully using a relatively extreme example to show that in far more important issues, the US authorities even grant legal status to the offspring of illegal aliens. If it's done with people, then why on earth should it not be done with something as relatively benign as flowers? Jerry makes a VERY good point!


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## parvi_17 (Jan 5, 2010)

I'd just like to say that I love Jerry's position on this matter, and I fully support it. I agree that he makes a very good point.


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## gonewild (Jan 5, 2010)

I like Jerry's point also and I have tried to argue for it in the past.

But plant seedlings in a flask are not the same as a fetus inside a pregnant woman. They would be the same as a nursing infant which if it entered the USA would qualify for citizenship only after meeting certain requirements of law. 

Under Jerry's theory the person that transports the flask is in the same position of the coyotes (human smugglers) that transport illegals across the border.
And the orchid collector that possesses the seedlings is in the same position as someone who knowingly harbors or employs illegal aliens. So Jerry's comparison does not help really. 

Maybe the theory does help the seedling become legal but it would become a ward of the court just as does the child born to an illegal mother if it remains in the USA after the mother is deported. The child becomes a citizen but the mother can not stay legally in the USA.

But seedlings produced from illegal plants in the USA would qualify for citizenship under the Jerry plan but what breeder is going to sign the birth certificate?

Citizenship is a "human" right in that it only applies to humans.


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## Lanmark (Jan 5, 2010)

Isn't bureaucracy grand?! 
Maybe someday the sun will explode and this planet will be vaporized.
It would be a wonderfully efficient simplification of everything humankind has ever complicated beyond all logic or remedy. oke:

I'm also thinking if orchid enthusiasts were as dedicated as the Christmas Day Crotch Bomber, we might all be growing hangianums today. :rollhappy:


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## Clark (Jan 6, 2010)

Anchor seedlings? just wanted to be first to coin the phrase.(hehehe)


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## baodai (Jan 6, 2010)

gonewild; said:


> Maybe the theory does help the seedling become legal



That is the point, If there is legal seedling then i will be happy to deport the mother. I will be happy to work on legal seedling and wait some years to cross again.

BD


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## Michael_Toronto (Jun 2, 2010)

CITIES needs to be clear and concise so that when regular people like me can buy flasks or plants that I choose from where ever I choose.

Less bureaucracy and more faith in the people who love orchids enough not to be buying collected plants and plants on CITES lists that are not grown in a green house! Cultivated plants raised and grown with respect to the species should be the priority to help beat orchid poaching!


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## NYEric (Jun 2, 2010)

1. You probably live in Toronto - CITES restrictions don't cause you many problems.
2. I think no one here would say CITES is clear, concise, or free of bureaucratic bumbling!


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## tenman (Jun 5, 2010)

Cites is perfectly clear: it encourages smuggling and removal of plants from the natural habitat. What could be clearer?


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## baodai (Jun 5, 2010)

tenman said:


> Cites is perfectly clear: it encourages smuggling and removal of plants from the natural habitat. What could be clearer?


Tenman,
Did it work or getting worst?  ... law should be change depend on situation in my opinion.
BD


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jun 6, 2010)

CITES worked perfectly well.....for ivory. Its kind of hard to smuggle 10 foot tusks. As for small plants that can pass for any of a number of other plants, not to mention hybrids, its easy to smuggle...so when you make it harder to legally import plants, you just make smuggling that much more profitable.


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## tocarmar (Jun 6, 2010)

I can see Cities used for plants,animals ect. to help cut down on invasive plants, pathogens in dirt & potting mix, ect. that is what quarintene(?) time is for when importing.. But I also agree with Eric Mue. that to identify plants & their hybrids, orchids or other it is nearly impossible unless they are in bloom, & even then you cannot tell the difference sometimes!! That is why alot of people all over the world smuggle plants, animals, people ect. because of the money to be made!!


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## Rick (Jun 6, 2010)

tocarmar said:


> I can see Cities used for plants,animals ect. to help cut down on invasive plants, pathogens in dirt & potting mix, ect. that is what quarintene(?) time is for when importing..



This is an APHIS function not a CITES function.


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## Kavanaru (Jun 7, 2010)

I can only add that the problem is not the regulation itself but the way it is interpreted... any lwa or regulation, no matter how well it is written, will alway be interpreted different (if wanted)... CITES works better in some countries than other, and personally, I think that the way it is interpreted in the USA is more on the "negative" than on the "positive" side...


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## NYEric (Jun 7, 2010)

The issue is that in any bureacracy it's easier to take the lazy way out and classify more stuff as not legal than to learn about individual species and do research on the effects of trade in those species caused by differing CITES interpretation by individual countries.


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