# To Chc Or Not To Chc?



## davidvaldez33 (Jun 24, 2008)

Hello, I would like some members experiences with growing in CHC as opposed to a bark mix. I have been growing my paphs in a mix of CHC and sphagnum for a few years now and they are growing fine, but whenever I repot them I notice that they have very little or no root hairs. I think this might be a problem as paphs roots that I have seen that were grown in bark have thick root hairs. I switched 4 of my plants into a bark mix in clear pots today to see what happens. If you have any advice or some insights, please let me know. Thanks,
David


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## Pete (Jun 25, 2008)

you might very well hear the complete opposite from other people but I hate CHC. they stay too wet and brake down much faster than bark, turning into mushy chc.. if you do decide to use them make sure to soak in water for a few days prior to leach out any excess salts in them.. i would suggest using a 2:1 bark to perlite mixture (coarse pieces). this will allow the roots to dry out more often and thus you can push the plants along that much faster..


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## Ernie (Jun 25, 2008)

I'm sorta with Pete. It works ok, but stays too wet for us too long during our long, cold winter in Chicago. I suppose we could learn to use it better, but bark does fine for us. 

-Ernie


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## Bolero (Jun 25, 2008)

I love it and have all my plants in it at the moment. One thing I will say is that it does affect the growth of a handful of Paphs I have but the rest are unaffected.

Not sure if it's the medium of not though. I have some amazing results overall.


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## NYEric (Jun 25, 2008)

I had a Porthos that loved it, so I added it to my mix. I use a wide renge of materials in my mixes so I'm not really worried about CHC. HP Norton, famous phrag and Phal grower, stopped using it and others here say there's salt problem w/ chc. Search the threads.


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## Frederick (Jun 25, 2008)

*Chc*

Hello,
It all depends on what you use with it, how you use it, where you grow and what you grow.

WHAT YOU GROW : I grow Parvis, Coryopetalums and their hybrids mostly hence cannot vouch for any other species and hybrids. Brachys die on me that's for sure, some hybrids with Parvi or Coryo grow well (God's Lady for one).

WHERE : a hot, humid climate will definitely be bad for CHC (see above). The same would be true for a greenhouse (see above). I grow my 168 paphs inside my house where humidity--or the lack of--is a problem. _In these conditions_, CHC is stable and provides a modicum of humidity. I really recommend it.

HOW : first CHC must be prepared. Two possibilities : 
---either the CHC is unwashed and VERY dangerous for plants since the salt contents is very high (see the Antec site for the long, tedious, messy mode of preparation http://ladyslipper.com/coco3.htm) ;
---or the CHC is pre-washed. It must be rinsed thoroughly several times and checked for conductivity.

WHAT YOU USE WITH IT : I use the Antec mix in the Antec proportions (6/3/1) but I never rinse the charcoal (the dust clings to the roots and is a good disinfectant). I use perlite instead of sponge rock (i.e. large-size perlite which is unavailable here) but increasingly I tend to use fine lava rock instead (I grow inside, remember and breathing perlite dust is carcinogenic). The added advantage of lava rock is that it is heavier, and makes the plant/pot more stable. 

I do not recommend using bark *with *CHC because it tends to break down more quickly than CHC which is an absurdity if you want your medium to remain stable. Moreover it is difficult to find wood chunks which allow the medium to breathe--wood pellets are a big no-no for me because they break down very quickly and kill the roots.

Of course, those are not general rules applicable in all cases. They must be adapted to other situations and growers. My 2 cents...

Happy growing
F.


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## Scooby5757 (Jun 25, 2008)

I bought it last year around late spring and repotted with it. This spring everything went back to a bark mix. I didnt like it, I got the feeling that if things got a bit dry, and that is known to happen, it was just bad news. Maybe it was salt, maybe it was CHC bad mojo?

BTW, anybody near South Jersey wanna buy CHC?


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## Candace (Jun 25, 2008)

I'm experimenting with it a little right now with decent results. I've got a bunch of divisions and extras that I didn't want to put in semi hydro. If I'm going to be donating them to the society auction or selling them, then most folks aren't going to want them in s/h and the medium is expensive for someone to dump it in the garbage. So, I've been growing them out in a probably 50/50 chc, perlite mix. There are a lot of folks who simply hate it and I'm not completely sold after reading the negatives about it.


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Jun 25, 2008)

Candace, I used to grow with CHC when I was growing under lights. I didn't do great with it. So when I got my green house I went to S/H. Most of what I own is in S/H with the exception of some phals, which are in spagnum moss. I however, started doing some experimenting with CHC about 6 or 8months back. I bought some inexpensive paphs. that I'm experimenting with in 2 inch pots and different portions of CHC and expanded clay pellets. I also put some of the larger paphs. into CHC mixs in 4 inch pots. Then maybe 4 months agao I had a chance to purchase 25 unlabeled previously bloomed complex paphs. at a give away price. So I bought them and put them in CHC primarily in clay pots. I did however put a few in 4" square pots. One of the square pots happened to be a clear one. I can tell you I'm impressed in what I'm seeing. I wish I had put more in the see threw pots. Most went into tall clay pots that I get from Michaels craft store and drill extra holes in them. In about a year I plan to upot them and see what I have. It's so deceiving by just looking at the top leaves. We just can't tell what the roots are doing by looking at the leaves. I had so many plants to experiment with I even went so far is to put one or two into just staight CHC. My brain tells me this will kill all the roots but we shall see.


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## Candace (Jun 25, 2008)

Interesting Bob, keep us posted on your experiements. I can't stand clay pots and since 90% of what I grow is in s/h I use mainly the clear pots too. Of course, they are not clear with all the algae growth. I would think a mix of leca and the chc would be a good one, though it's counter to what I'm trying to do. Most people I trade/sell/give plants to don't want it or know anything about leca.


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## davidvaldez33 (Jun 25, 2008)

Thank you all for your insights! I really appreciate it!


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## SlipperFan (Jun 25, 2008)

My 2 cents:
I use CHC with medium diatomite chunks plus some pearlite for my Paphs and Phrags. For the vast majority of the plants, they are doing very well. The few that aren't doing so well don't seem to like anything I've done. 

I agree that CHC with bark seems to defeat the purposes of both, but lots of people use it. The advantage of diatomite is that is does not break down, and it does hold water but doesn't get soggy like CHC or bark. To me, the CHC and diatomite seem to compliment each other.

I've been using CHC that comes in brick form. I soak it and rinse it 3x before I use it, even though it says to use it directly.


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## Corbin (Jun 25, 2008)

The one time that I used CHC on a paph. the leaves on the new growth started twisting and turned very pale. The older leaves did not do any of these things. I tried all different kinds of things but it did not get over its problem until I switched back to bark. The leaves stayed twisted but it greened up. I have not tried it again though I still have a bunch left.


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## paphreek (Jun 25, 2008)

I grow in the house and only have time to water most plants once a week. CHC mixed with large perlite (spongerock) and charcoal does well for me in most instances. I have been experimenting with bark mixes as my humidty has risen, but the the CHC still performs better in plastic pots up to 5 inches in diameter. Bigger than that, I switch to a bark mix. The quality of CHC can vary. I have had good luck with the Crystal Company.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jun 25, 2008)

I am an ex- CHC user. I still love it for most epiphytes- catts, oncidiums, dendrobiums, in fact all epiphytes except for phals and pleurothallids, which hate it. Phrags hate it too. As for paphs- when I first started CHC, I was impressed....most paphs show an immediate positive response to CHC, which I loaded with spongerock, lava rock, and charcoal. But, over the years I saw that it was really disappointing. Root growth tended to be restricted to the upper inch or two. The stuff rotted as fast as bark, needing yearly (or more frequent) repotting. It would get really gross on the surface, attracting fungus gnats. As for the paph growth- brachy's and parvis liked it, as did most complex paphs and most, but not all, of the insigne type species. Cochlo's liked it too. As for the multiflorals, it depended on the species. haynaldianum and lowii hated it....philipinense and its hybrids loved it. Worst of all were the barbata types, which would develop yellow leaves, then lose roots. I never planted delanatii in CHC, always using my phrag mix of bark, perlite, and sphagnum. And yes, I always soaked it according to the Antec formula....i gal CHC in 5 gal water- plain 1st soaking, 5 tspns each CaNo3 and MgSO4 2nd soaking, plain 3rd and 4th soakings. And this is for "prewashed" CHC. I have now given up on CHC in all my paph mixes, replacing it with bark. I still use CHC exclusively for epiphytes- straight, no other ingredients in the mix,and it lasts until they outgrow the pot without breaking down. Take care, Eric.


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## davidvaldez33 (Jun 26, 2008)

Thanks again! I have been growing all of my paphs in it for about 5 years as I have always been scared of bark for some unknown reason. I have always felt that I would over or underwater my plants as I have trouble telling when bark is dry. I have been growing in clay pots on my windowsills. Clay for aesthetics mostly, as I have never been fond of the look of plastic. But alas, I am now switching to clear plastic pots and bark mix for a few of my paphs to see what happens. This way I can see the moisture content and root development. I'm hoping it is a switch for the better! Thank you all for all of your advice! I really appreciate it!
David


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## Bolero (Jun 26, 2008)

I would dispute that Pleuro's hate it. Mine have never grown so well and I've been using it with varying species and hybrids for quite some time. I highly recommend it for them.

Some Paphs love it and a handful I have don't seem to like it despite really good root growth.


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## NYEric (Jun 26, 2008)

#1-There's no such thing as overwatering.
#2-If it comes in brick form isn't coconut coir not CHC?


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## SlipperFan (Jun 26, 2008)

NYEric said:


> #2-If it comes in brick form isn't coconut coir not CHC?


Not always. Check out the Kinsman Company.


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## NYEric (Jun 27, 2008)

Okiedokie!


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## Rick (Jun 27, 2008)

I've had some great results and not so great results.

In general I've had great results with CHC based mixes for just about every muliti and sequential flowering paph I have.

Great results with henryanum, exul, charlesworthii, and some other paphiopedium subgenera.

Mixed results with brachies

Mixed to poor with barbatas.

In general if I have oyster shell in the mix they tend to to good. Mixed with sphagnum they do good for a while, and then go downhill after a year or less.

CHC has some pretty wierd ion exchange capacity issues so besides the soaking to get the salts out, I've recently started a final soak with a calcium/magnesium phophate mix to preload some phosporous into the CHC.

I have some collosum potted up in this now, but its too early to tell anything.


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## Brian Monk (Jun 27, 2008)

I grow in a mix of CHC, charcoal, and perlite. Occasionally I add sphag. I grow outside (a shade house) with some control over water, in south Florida. My paphs love CHC. I think it is important to realize that CHC does come in different sizes. I use medium size, and screen out the fines. I like it, my plants like it, and I think it breaks down more slowly than bark, and I repot evry 12-24 months.


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## bellas (Jun 28, 2008)

I have not been growing paphs for long, in fact, I only have a few...but my first paph a delenatii was headed down hill quick from root rot, it had about 6-7 growths when this was going on, now, it has about 15-16 and 2 more on the way. It really has helped at keeping the roots alive longer than in bark.
It's much easier to not over water in CHC as opposed to bark, I have not noticed my roots only growing at the top of the pots, they grow a pretty deep root system at least for me.

Now, if I could only get my paphs to bloom........


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## davidvaldez33 (Jun 28, 2008)

bellas said:


> I have not been growing paphs for long, in fact, I only have a few...but my first paph a delenatii was headed down hill quick from root rot, it had about 6-7 growths when this was going on, now, it has about 15-16 and 2 more on the way. It really has helped at keeping the roots alive longer than in bark.
> It's much easier to not over water in CHC as opposed to bark, I have not noticed my roots only growing at the top of the pots, they grow a pretty deep root system at least for me.
> 
> Now, if I could only get my paphs to bloom........



Paph delenatii was the first paph I ever purchased. I have bloomed mine every spring (feb or march) now for the last 5 years. I grow mine in my windowsill where it gets quite chilly here in the winter in North Dakota. I think that the cold along with my tendency to neglect my plants (especially watering) during the winter helps to shock it into bloom. Hope this helps you!
David


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## Mrs. Paph (Jun 30, 2008)

Well, w/o going too indepth on my thoughts on this subject: Comment 1: Ernie, you're right not to switch over to a mostly CHC mix - the two plants I've gotten from you had wonderful top growth and wonderfu roots!! I wish all the plants I've gotten elsewhere had arrived in such nice condition! Comment 2: Those two plants went directly into my CHC mix, the smaller w/ some added sphag & leca, larger into CHC's and leca, and they haven't missed a beat, almost filled their new pots w/ roots already! ...One I did have the embarrassment of having to move up to a bigger pot only 2 months after repotting it on arrival...I guess I wasn't optimistic enough! I would say that CHC's are like all pot type/media combinations - it depends on the Other growing conditions whether it's a good fit or not.


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## Mrs. Paph (Jun 30, 2008)

PS: I've completely switched over to clear plastic pots now, and decided that plastic pots will Always be best - until the day they invent clear Clay pots, at which point I'll re-evaluate that statement LOL


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## Ray (Jul 3, 2008)

*How about a little science?*

Reading this thread, I see a lot of conjecture about whether CHC is good or bad, anecdotal evidence both ways, but no explanation of why that may be a problem or not.


Yes, cleanliness can be an issue, but it can be addressed fairly easily.


Particle size and shape can also give you different packing densities, hence air flow.


Adding other ingredients of different sizes and shapes will also cause that to vary widely.


Longevity of CHC versus bark has yielded two camps as well - for me it lasts far longer than bark, for others, not. Is that a material quality issue? (For both probably)
All of those things point to fixable root-zone environmental conditions, but is there any scientific data out there that might explain it otherwise? Absorption/release characteristics? Something chemically odd about CHC itself?


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## Rick (Jul 3, 2008)

Ray said:


> Reading this thread, I see a lot of conjecture about whether CHC is good or bad, anecdotal evidence both ways, but no explanation of why that may be a problem or not.
> 
> 
> Yes, cleanliness can be an issue, but it can be addressed fairly easily.
> ...



The ion exchange properties for CHC have been documented somewhere. Might check with Bob Welenstien for a reference. He was the one who came up with a MgSO4 soak for CHC prep.

But you are correct that this is a very complex medium with tons of variables, and no studies of significant sample size to understand what's really going on.


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## Roth (Jul 4, 2008)

Rick said:


> The ion exchange properties for CHC have been documented somewhere. Might check with Bob Welenstien for a reference. He was the one who came up with a MgSO4 soak for CHC prep.
> 
> But you are correct that this is a very complex medium with tons of variables, and no studies of significant sample size to understand what's really going on.



Shortly as those days I have too many different works to do.

* I documented I think on the other forum the CHC problems in details, and here as well.

* http://www.usu.edu/cpl/PDF/CoconutCoirPaper.pdf is a comparision between coir and peat moss, to give you an idea about what's wrong.

* Floricultura in Heemstede issued a review on phalaenopsis that proved the growth of phals plants to be halved or nearly so when using bark + coir instead of bark + sphagnum. That study was on several hundreds of plants for each sample...

* I was the one who 'came up' scientifically about the Calcium and Magnesium, and I informed ( for free) the people on the AOS forum at that time, and several large growers. It took another year for Bob to carry on analysis with baryum extraction based on what I wrote on AOS forum, and possibly some huge culturals problems and realize I was right... No professionnal orchid grower believed that Na+ ( sodium) would not be leached by plain water, I had to make the destructive analysis (not the common water-extract technic, but the plain destruction of the sample, to ensure everything present is analyzed) when I realized something was wrong with coconut products.

* CHC makes wonderful roots for many types, at least at first, but the top growth never follows completely... Some plant become allergic or sort of to CHC too.

* All the major growers either did not touch coconut products, or abandoned their use ( Norton, the Orchid Zone in part, AnTec, etc...), 

* There is a way to properly use CHC, but it is extremely complicated, much more than a couple soaksin divalent carions solution.

* People at first do not believe others when they say that their CHC potted plants looks like crap. The steps are 1/they pot few plants to try 2/ they get plenty of roots 3/ they repot everything 4/ some months/year later problems appear 5/ they have only CHC potted plants, so they do not realize the general slow down and chlorosis at that time. Usually, when they repot again in a bark medium, it does not take too long for them to understand that so far bark is superior to CHC. There are individual exceptions for CHC similar to Steph from France who can grow in rockwhool cubes nearly everything...

Make a search about CHC, I wrote already about all of that. 

For the funny cation behavior, and catch-up-without-release followed by massive release, search google.com, there are plenty of references. the www.uspto.gov has couple of patents for a permanent filter to remove heavy metals using coconut and the cation exchange behavior....


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## Hien (Jul 4, 2008)

Those side by side pictures really speak volume.


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## Rick (Jul 4, 2008)

Really a complex situation.

In the Ag study it appears that the coir was not rinsed to reduce salt content prior to testing, and the over-abundance of K is interesting.

Also of note is the use of lime in the peat moss control mix.

In some ways this study agrees with my general observation that multis in my CHC mixes with oyster shell amendment should do better than in mixes without it.

The reference to release of phenolic compounds is interesting, but I would suspect that this is a very complex issue since phenolics are readily biodegradable.

I work in the waste water industry, and I've seen papers for development of effective metal sequestering filters made from everything from standard peat moss, CHC, to coffee grounds. Just about any humic containing substance has metal entrapping properties which varies dramatically even among different sources of peat.


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## Rick (Jul 4, 2008)

Sanderianum said:


> * I was the one who 'came up' scientifically about the Calcium and Magnesium, and I informed ( for free) the people on the AOS forum at that time, and several large growers.



I apologize for not giving you credit, but I didn't see your name mentioned in the article that Bob published on his website.



Sanderianum said:


> * There is a way to properly use CHC, but it is extremely complicated, much more than a couple soaksin divalent carions solution.



You refereed to this in a previous post, and we are still waiting to hear the method!!:clap:


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## Rick (Jul 4, 2008)

Rick said:


> Really a complex situation.
> 
> In the Ag study it appears that the coir was not rinsed to reduce salt content prior to testing, and the over-abundance of K is interesting.



In rereading this article the high salt Mexican brands are the ones that really trashed the corn and broccoli, and some of the treatments of low salt Sri Lanka CHC did equal or slightly better than peat mixes.

I also noted that the worst brand of Mexican coir also massively boosted the aluminum in corn foliar analysis. This would really tie up phosphorus, and with the high K promote some serious imbalance of NPK.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jul 5, 2008)

Coir is the powdered coconut stuff...its weird....I can't grow non-orchids in it- they die right away....and that's after heavy soaking. With orchids- phrags hate it. Paphs will revive in it, but make no new root growth. Terrestrials like Ludisia like it, but require yearly repotting...and Cymbidiums love it...can stay in it until the pot contains nothing but solid roots. Coir and perlite is my medium of choice for Cymbidiums....nothing else, though.....Take care, Eric


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## Rick (Jul 5, 2008)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> Coir is the powdered coconut stuff...its weird....I can't grow non-orchids in it- they die right away....and that's after heavy soaking. With orchids- phrags hate it. Paphs will revive in it, but make no new root growth. Terrestrials like Ludisia like it, but require yearly repotting...and Cymbidiums love it...can stay in it until the pot contains nothing but solid roots. Coir and perlite is my medium of choice for Cymbidiums....nothing else, though.....Take care, Eric



The article that Sangii published showed that there are huge differences in coir quality based on source, and how you handle it. There were also significant differences in how the different plant species ( in this case corn, wheat, broccoli, and soy beans) could handle the different sources and treatments.

It really is a complex science, but two factors that may be consistent is high potassium, iron, and aluminum capacity will promote phosphorus (and even nitrogen) imbalances. Your irrigation water and fertilizer choices could impact final results.


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## bellas (Jul 5, 2008)

Shouldn't we wait for tests that are genuinely controlled, and actually have to do with orchids?!


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## Rick (Jul 5, 2008)

bellas said:


> Shouldn't we wait for tests that are genuinely controlled, and actually have to do with orchids?!



There is a reference in the Ag article to a "monocot" (could be orchids or lilies?) experiment that looked pretty dismal. Otherwise we may be waiting for a while for a blind controlled orchid experiment that looks at as many variables as the Ag experiment.

I the meantime heres some more anecdotal experience.







This stonei was a fresh out of compot seedling (<6"LS) when I bought it in 9/04. I repotted it back then in my CHC mix. I can't remember if I have repotted since then, but I know I have replenished oyster shell by top dressing over the last 4 years. It is now a 3 growth plant (still in a 2"pot), in sheath, with a 26 inch LS. I don't think it looks chlorotic, and from what most people are saying about how slow their stonei's are growing, I think it has done quite well, and repotted no more than 2X in 4 years in CHC. Just about all my multi's have done well in my CHC mix under my culture regime, and I don't think it's just because I have nothing to compare them too. I have resurrected a badly beat up roth and roebelinii in it (I have posted pics of the roebelinii that throws 7 flowers per spike for a couple years now, still in the same mix), and wilhelms are supporting very dark green multiple growths without repotting for 3 years.

BTW I can definitely not make these general claims for my barbata and many other more acidic appreciating paphs or phrags I've tried CHC mixes on.

I just don't think that CHC is the universal Darth Vader off the orchid world, and its worth using if we can figure out it's pitfalls. We may actually be able to use this info for understanding the rest of orchid culture.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jul 5, 2008)

Well, I don't have stoneii....but I have found that philipinense and its hybrids appreciate CHC far more than any other paphs. I have definitely not raced to repot mine into bark. And there is no question that barbata hate CHC the most...although I received a compot of violascens that is in CHC and doing very well....I will repot it, but I try to avoid "elective" repotting of paphs in the summer......Eric


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## Bolero (Jul 5, 2008)

It's interesting how some hate it and some love it. I find my Parvi's are doing well and the Brachy's but barbata do hate it along with a few others.

As for my other plants? They all love it!


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## Damas (Jul 8, 2008)

I don't use it because I don't like it's texture, it's just a feeling, I have no growing experience with it.


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## Frederick (Jul 8, 2008)

*The resident evil in CHC--let's be reasonable.*

Many French growers are wary of Sanderianum's somewhat fuzzy "science" and "final" pronouncements. 

I wholly support Rick's claim but that's only my personal opinion. In any case, there can be no mysterious physical or chemical reason why CHC should be "essentially" bad for orchids. If you buy it from a reputable source, if you wash it and treat it properly (see Antec's website), if you check its conductivity (give or take 60 microsiemens), if you mix it with a neutral cultural medium (e.g. charcoal, sponge-rock, etc.), if you check it regularly for ph, how on earth could it possibly become the evil thing some people imagine it to be ? Of course if you buy CHC with a salt contents which blocks your conductivity meter (this has happened to me) and use it straight out of the bag, problems shall occur but that's only fair.

It is also true that CHC will decompose in time depending on original quality, temperature, and humidity (2 years in my conditions). The CHC particles will form a kind of mud at the bottom of the pot with charcoal and sponge-rock particles--this is bad for the roots especially if you tend to overwater.

The same heated debate has been going on since the 19th C. Every single medium that works for you is THE ideal medium but it would be wrong to apply the same rules to all circumstances and all paphs (I suspect brachys dislike CHC but I don't grow any since they are all die on me). 

You'll find that bark is equally difficult to apply to all cases. Bark _pellets _are lethal to my plants in my conditions and chunks are very difficult to find nowadays. I have never found a bark mix which works in my conditions.

I'd be very curious to know if anyone other than the interested party has ever used Lance Birk's "Pretty Good Mix" (8 parts medium grade fir bark, 2 parts chopped moss, 1 part 16 mesh silica or river sand). For obvious reasons a 16 mesh sifter is not available in France and I keep forgetting to buy one whenever I go to the States. I am sorely tempted to experiment with this mix. Feedback please ?

Happy growing
F.


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## Roth (Jul 8, 2008)

Frederick said:


> Many French growers are wary of Sanderianum's somewhat fuzzy "science" and "final" pronouncements. .



Not quite. To put the records straight, the french growers are using my technics fot most of them, even if they sometimes forget to quote me as the originator. Initial quarantine, chemicals for disinfection, the high P fertilizers as plant starters, antibiotics for some of the, the potting mixes... 

Prior to my advise to several people, that spreaded afterwards, only a few people could grow paphs in France, that`s a fact. Apart from Steph on rockwhool on orchideefantome, where he discovered an ideal way of using it, most of the `advise` that is passed nowadays in France comes from me.

It is not quite fuzzy science, anyway I do not matter too much about such statements, I am working now for a major pot-plant company, from that onwards...



> In any case, there can be no mysterious physical or chemical reason why CHC should be "essentially" bad for orchids.



You are wrong on that. There are chemicals reasons, but they are not related to salt concentration at all. There are ome lectins that are phytotoxic, and some other compounds, some of them are just detected but not analyzed fully. For the physical reasons, it is a very strong cation binder, and yes, if we remove this ability the things are doing better.

I was thinking of releasing as a scientifical paper the complete coconut-related problems, but now prior to that, I will take a patent on how to process it correctly. Free for hobbysts, but for sale for commercial people. It seems only fair to me.

Thinking well, if I did patent the use of calcium nitrate and magnesium sulfate to release the sequestrated sodium and potassium, I would be very, very wealthy... So now, I will patent the part II, to make CHC really an ideal product.



> If you buy it from a reputable source, if you wash it and treat it properly (see Antec's website), if you check its conductivity (give or take 60 microsiemens), if you mix it with a neutral cultural medium (e.g. charcoal, sponge-rock, etc.), if you check it regularly for ph, how on earth could it possibly become the evil thing some people imagine it to be ?



Hormons at first, and second, salt release. Third, some batches are derived from greem coconut, and they have a very organic content, which eventually will be a perfect substrate for fungus and bacterias. Fourth, some batches are contaminated with pseudomonas and/or fusarium.

Last problem is instability of the media and total inconsistency in the batches. There are some aside problems with some phytotoxic lectins too...

When I did a major expert work for the french customs, we shortly realized that all the exporters that sold coconut products to France were major scammers. All shipments to France, without any exceptions, had forged documents, fake statements, etc... Some were imported as ` pillow fillers`, some as ecologic additives to concrete - enjoying tax free import, some had fake analysis... None were in fact acceptable for a reason or another. 1 container would have many types of products and qualities, and the `dessalted one` still had some thousands ppm of sodium bound to the fibers. As explained many times, this part of sodium and potassium is bound, and does not ionize in water, therefore a EC check would not detect anything special.



> Of course if you buy CHC with a salt contents which blocks your conductivity meter (this has happened to me) and use it straight out of the bag, problems shall occur but that's only fair.



Not only, a major part of the monovalent cations are captured by the CHC, even with 10 rinses in pure water and a final EC of 0, problems will happen.



> I suspect brachys dislike CHC but I don't grow any since they are all die on me.



In fact, they love it if you keep it evenly moist



> You'll find that bark is equally difficult to apply to all cases. Bark _pellets _are lethal to my plants in my conditions and chunks are very difficult to find nowadays. I have never found a bark mix which works in my conditions.



I put somewhere on a forum the way to process bark, the main problem in France is that most of the good quality bark is presold to the Netherlands, second it has to be pretreated to be used, and third, there are many types of pine bark... Last, bark is better when mixed with something to retain water in a different way - not droplets type- such as coconut, sphagnum, peat or otherwise



> I'd be very curious to know if anyone other than the interested party has ever used Lance Birk's "Pretty Good Mix" (8 parts medium grade fir bark, 2 parts chopped moss, 1 part 16 mesh silica or river sand). For obvious reasons a 16 mesh sifter is not available in France and I keep forgetting to buy one whenever I go to the States. I am sorely tempted to experiment with this mix. Feedback please ?



I am trying actually as a way to reduce costs locally. I found out so far after 3 months that moss is far superior for barbata to sphagnum in paphs potting mix.

For the 16 mesh you do not care to get it from the US, it is the french 1.2mm sieve, you can get one at many places in Paris, close to the universities, geology students use it very frequently.


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## Ray (Jul 13, 2008)

I think it is impractical to equate terrestrial plant performance with powdered coir with orchid performance in husk chips. I'm not saying that there may not be a correlation, but reactive surface area plays a huge role.

One can easily grow orchids on marble gravel, but if you try to use it in a 'sand" particle size, the pH will knock out the plants in no time!


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## Rick (Jul 13, 2008)

Sanderianum said:


> I found out so far after 3 months that moss is far superior for barbata to sphagnum in paphs potting mix.
> 
> For the 16 mesh you do not care to get it from the US, it is the french 1.2mm sieve, you can get one at many places in Paris, close to the universities, geology students use it very frequently.



Do you mean peat moss versus long leaf sphagnum moss? I thought both are sphagnum, but peat is aged and shredded versus fresher and whole for long leaf.


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## Rick (Jul 13, 2008)

*Moer CHC carnage.*

I thought I'd repot a baby supardii I got from Fox Valley in 4/05. I think it was about 6-8 inches at the time and in bark. I repotted in my chc mix and haven't repotted since, but added some oyster shell on top from time to time.







Its a bit over 18" across now, and I think the roots look pretty good.


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## SlipperFan (Jul 13, 2008)

They look great!


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## davidvaldez33 (Jul 15, 2008)

WOW! I never thought I would get this much debate and input from my question! Thank you all so much! I have since repotted all of my paphs into a fir bark mix in clear pots. I have seen a lot of new root growth on some of my plants and the roots have root hairs! They never did in my chc mix. My plants have always had pretty strong growth in chc, but I was always worried about the roots. In Ricks post of his supardii, It looks like he is having the same problem that I had. I might be wrong, but I think that the long roots in his pics are the original ones that the plant had when he purchased it in the bark mix. If you look closely at the bottom pic you can see that they the ling roots have root hairs. Right above these roots you can see a multitude of very short dark roots that no longer have active growing tips. I think that these are the roots that tried to grow in the chc after the initial repotting. Above those, there are some new roots starting that still have active root tips, but I think these too will stop growing soon and their active tips will die also. I had this same problem also and this was the reason I originally posted my question. I do not know why, but the top growth seems to do nicely, but root growth is stunted.


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## Rick (Jul 16, 2008)

davidvaldez33 said:


> I might be wrong, but I think that the long roots in his pics are the original ones that the plant had when he purchased it in the bark mix. If you look closely at the bottom pic you can see that they the ling roots have root hairs. Right above these roots you can see a multitude of very short dark roots that no longer have active growing tips. I think that these are the roots that tried to grow in the chc after the initial repotting. Above those, there are some new roots starting that still have active root tips, but I think these too will stop growing soon and their active tips will die also.



Afraid you do have it wrong. Keep in mind this plant has tripled in size in 3 years while potted in the same batch of chc. That's a tough feat for a plant with dead roots. Also the original roots on the seedling (typical of young plants)were thin and wiry. The hairy roots in the photo are less than 3 years old, and some of the pieces of the original roots are the black things with no tips. Typically my multis do not grow roots during winter, and will not have active growth tips until late spring - summer. Then they go wild. Those new roots should have no problems with the CHC this year either. I have 4 sanderianum, and 4 stoneis, all in CHC and most in clear pots, and there is lots of active root growth going on now. I just repotted my kolo (which went from a single growth 18" plant to 7 growths up to 28") which has been in the same CHC mix for 4 years, and its roots had packed the pot.

I have other species potted up in bark mixes too for different reasons, but I think I'm getting good to superior results with my multis without the annual repotting hassel of standard bark mixes.


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## Rick (Nov 2, 2008)

*Supardii update*

Here's a couple of pics of my supardii that got repotted in the PO4 enchanced CHC mix. Those aerial in the previous post that were supposed to turn black and die seem to have done quite well, and the plant has started 2 new growths. I think its on schedule to bloom this spring.







The stonei I pictured on the previous page also went crazy after repotting and the sheath is starting to thicken with spike. Also those wardii seedlings from Gilda's post were potted up in a CHC sphagnum mix that seemed to work well for those guys.


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