# Heads Up



## TheLorax (Sep 17, 2007)

U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service issued a final rule recently revising the U.S. regulations governing implementation of CITES in the USA.

http://www.fws.gov/policy/library/07-3960.pdf

The new regulations will be in effect next week. 

If we thought there was a lot of plant material coming in dying in holding areas or slated to be incinerated before because of people attempting to circumvent the system... wait until the new regulations are in place and being enforced. 

It's 94 pages long and is a good read but pretty much spells it out. Sad that it has come to this. I would have preferred education and personal responsibility over more government regulation.


----------



## NYEric (Sep 17, 2007)

better make some calls.


----------



## gonewild (Sep 17, 2007)

Can someone please give a "book report" for what it says.


----------



## TheLorax (Sep 17, 2007)

I have a personal friend, like me, who has all his ducks in a row in the permit department. He could import and export legally. Last year he ordered plants from an individual who claimed to have all of his ducks in a row. Evidently the sender told some untruths to be able to sell to my friend. The seller chose to label the box he was shipping to my friend as crafts. Willful and intentional mislabeling of boxes has become common practice as many slipped through in the past. Although my friend was innocent and had the appropriate paperwork on his end, it was a big mess costing him around $7,500. I can put you in contact with him for the details if you would like, it's really a crying shame because he was legitimate... his seller wasn't. There was another friend of mine who also got nailed. His order of seeds was shipped to him disguised as a wreath. The seller had laced the seeds throughout the twisted bramble of a decorative door wreath but had described the contents appropriately on the customs documents. I thought that was rather creative. Total cost to that friend was about $4,500 in legal fees but that friend was able to retain his import and export privileges. 

The last time I placed an order for plants, I got a call from the USDA. They stated they were detaining my order for a bit. They detained it so they could call in a specialist to match up the plants in the box with the list of plants that had been declared as having been inspected by the Australian Quarantine and Inspection Service's list that accompanied my order. I asked the guy to please water my plants or they'd die. I think he actually did and for this I am very grateful. I received my plants a week later and only lost a few. 

I must admit I'm not going to be ordering anything from anyone unless I have dealt with them before. Last thing in the world I need is somebody slipping a gift plant or two that I wouldn't have known existed to declare on my original paperwork into my order.


----------



## TheLorax (Sep 17, 2007)

Sorry gonewild, I didn't see your post because I was typing. Please go to the very last page of the document and read Section 23.92. That about sums it up. We're talking major gridlock here.


----------



## Hien (Sep 17, 2007)

TheLorax said:


> Sorry gonewild, I didn't see your post because I was typing. Please go to the very last page of the document and read Section 23.92. That about sums it up. We're talking major gridlock here.



I almost gave up at the beginning when I see the part crocodile & its meat...
So I go all the way to the end, and behold, if it is true, I see the same thing at 23.92.
Darn, does that mean that now the US can finally import all orchid in flasks regardless hybrid Or species ?
or I am I missing/misread something here?


----------



## goldenrose (Sep 17, 2007)

I interpret as you do Hien - one would think so but I'm not holding my breath on it!


----------



## TheLorax (Sep 17, 2007)

Not exactly. 


> § 23.92 Are any wildlife or plants, and their
> parts, products, or derivatives, exempt?
> (a) All living or dead wildlife and
> plants in Appendix I, II, and III and all
> ...



Best to note the existence of the word specimen throughout this document and best to call them yourself because you would still need all your ducks in a row... on both sides of any transaction. 

More information as well as contact information here-
http://www.fws.gov/endangered/wildlife.html
Incredibly, you can talk with a real live human being should you feel the need to call. They also helped me fill out permits the first time I applied.


----------



## Hien (Sep 17, 2007)

Plants in flasks are obvious artificially created according to this document, is it not? 




TheLorax said:


> Not exactly.
> 
> Best to note the existence of the word specimen throughout this document and best to call them yourself because you would still need all your ducks in a row... on both sides of any transaction.
> 
> ...


----------



## bwester (Sep 17, 2007)

bastards.


----------



## TheLorax (Sep 17, 2007)

Me thinks bwester just figured it out.


----------



## TheLorax (Sep 17, 2007)

I thought I'd share two personal messages that are currently in my inbox. I've blocked out personally identifying information and won't be responding to either message for obvious reasons, the first individual obviously knows there are issues with CITES so I guess I'm just supposed to label the seed as vacuum dust and mail it to him/her??? Forget that I just planted these plants and that they were a gift and that I don't even know if they'll survive to bloom next spring or not...



> XXXXXX Join Date: XXXXXX 2007
> Posts: 0
> 
> Cyp acaule
> ...



And here's another one wanting seeds, didn't realize C. acaule was so popular-


> I myself made some crossing this year - I kept some of the pollen cold 2-4 celcius fo 5-7 days - I also froze some for 3 weeks - and successfully made crossings which produced seeds. I used Cyp farrei as motherplant with "big red machranthum", yatabeanum and yellow calceouls. I also crossed with Regina as motherplants with farreri, "big red machranthum" and some differnt coloured flavum. (my white ones was used to cross with kentuckiense but failed - this was in XXXXXX) I have sent the seed for culture and hope that they will grow.
> 
> XXXXXX
> XXXXXX



I share this because somebody evidently already shared seed of kentuciense with him/her and it really might not be a good idea to try to share or accept anything with these people right about now. Orchid seeds are like dust and are some of the smallest seeds I've ever seen and if these people think that our inspectors haven't been trained to spot questionable seed, they're fooling themselves. It's our rears on the line whether we are on the receiving end or the sending end of any transaction. Doesn't look as if the US is screwing around any more. Please be careful people. It's human nature to want to share but truly might not be a good idea to do so across borders these days regardless of what has gone on between friends in the past.

Admins, please feel free to go in my personal messages to see who these messages are from.


----------



## kentuckiense (Sep 17, 2007)

TheLorax said:


> Admins, please feel free to go in my personal messages to see who these messages are from.



We don't do that, and I'm pretty sure we aren't even capable of doing so. I don't think we have the software add-ons that "another" forum has.


----------



## bwester (Sep 17, 2007)

Yeah... Lauren, we dont invade others private space.
I'm glad you're here, BTW. your the ****.


----------



## TheLorax (Sep 17, 2007)

Incredibly, I received those two PMs today after I started this thread. What timing.

I don't want any one of us hurt. My one friend has little kids and a wife who has some serious on going health issues that they struggle to deal with as it is. That $7,500 probably meant a second mortgage on their home... with little kids in the household. He had to take a plea all because of how the sender labeled the shipment. 

And kentuckiense, you are welcome to my password since you're an Admin. Sorry, I didn't know that. I've nothing in my personal messages that I would feel uncomfortable letting anyone read... well... except NYEric who accused me of being addicted... wouldn't want HIM seeing me trying to buy another plant from another member what with HIM calling me addicted and all in another thread. Anyway, Heather told me how to forward so I know how to do that and you're welcome to a forward of either pm complete with the personally identifiable information of the senders. 

Forgot to mention that I had another private message before these two asking for whole flower heads of Cypripedium spp. claiming he/she was "collecting data on how long the polinator cells will reamin vital".


----------



## Rick (Sep 17, 2007)

Maybe Matt Gore can put together a concise side by side comparison of the new and old rules???

He imports a fair amount and is probably pretty steeped in the matter.


----------



## Candace (Sep 17, 2007)

Lauren, I get a few e-mails now and then(not through this forum but through my website) from people wanting divisions who are located in other countries. Sometimes I think it's ignorance of the CITES rules on their end, and sometimes I think they're just hoping I'm ignorant. 

Just because someone sends you an e-mail with a request doesn't mean you're obligated to respond. The delete key works wonders and solves many problems. If someone is harrassing you, do let the Admins. know, but I'd just suggest ignoring these folks.


----------



## kentuckiense (Sep 17, 2007)

Yup, I got an email today from China requesting to trade for Cyp. parviflorum and Cyp. reginae seeds. I don't even grow Cyps and I'm a bit unsure as to how they got my personal email address, but I have no doubt they had good intentions. Over the past year I've gotten emails from all over the world requesting seed from the kentuckiense population I visited and photographed. They were all from people who were clearly accomplished propagators and had clear conservation interests in mind. I wish I could've helped, but the seed pods weren't mine to harvest. Just keep in mind that it is the poorly-thought-out and counter-productive "conservation" laws that are the real enemies.


----------



## Heather (Sep 17, 2007)

That's what you get, Zach, for using such a name!


----------



## Candace (Sep 17, 2007)

How come my old byline of s/h dominatrix hasn't gotten me any interesting e-mails?


----------



## Heather (Sep 17, 2007)

Candace said:


> How come my old byline of s/h dominatrix hasn't gotten me any interesting e-mails?



Administrator moniker = no fun.


----------



## TheLorax (Sep 17, 2007)

Candace, just checked your website and then I clicked on the little blurb about you. Good Lord you're pretty. You sure when they contact you that they aren't trying to get a date or something and trying to get their leg in the door by asking for a cutting or a division of a plant? 

I didn't reply to the last two. 

And kentuckiense, I'm not a proponent of what's going on right now. I'm for less government regulation and more education and personal responsibility. Criminals are criminals and they're going to find a way around this sooner or later. Fortunately, the nurseries like Gore Conservatory (sp?) will still be able to get their hands on plant material for import and then we can buy from them


----------



## practicallyostensible (Sep 17, 2007)

TheLorax said:


> I'm for less government regulation and more education and personal responsibility. Criminals are criminals and they're going to find a way around this sooner or later. Fortunately, the nurseries like Gore Conservatory (sp?) will still be able to get their hands on plant material for import and then we can buy from them



Amen.


----------



## Candace (Sep 17, 2007)

Aw, you're sweet and thank you for the compliment. I can promise you they're all about the orchids. Us addicted orchid growers can be very focused on our obsessions!


----------



## Eric Muehlbauer (Sep 17, 2007)

My eyes glazed over trying to read the CITES legalese, but it all boils down to one issue, for US growers only. App. 1 orchids have always been legal, in flask, anywhere in the world except the US. By USFW definitions, the flasked App. I plants are only legal IF the parents were legal. There was no problem with P. gigantifolium or Ph. kovachii, as they were legally produced by their originating countries...I'd expect P. thaianum to quickly join this list. That does pose a problem for those paphs of Vietnamese origin, since Vietnam never clearly signed on to CITES, not to mention that most of the flasked paphs were done outside of Vietnam. Since the parents illegally left Vietnam, their progeny is just as illegal in the eyes of USFW. If this is still the policy, then there is no change. However, any relaxing of the "fruit of the poisoned tree" concept could mean that we will finally be able to get all those Vietnamese paphs legally and above board...and that is what needs to be explained to us. Anybody in touch with Roddy Gabel? He is the USFW maven on the subject. Take care, Eric


----------



## TheLorax (Sep 17, 2007)

Fruit of the poison tree, eh? That's a nice way of putting it.


----------



## Hien (Sep 17, 2007)

TheLorax said:


> Incredibly, I received those two PMs today after I started this thread. What timing.
> 
> I don't want any one of us hurt. My one friend has little kids and a wife who has some serious on going health issues that they struggle to deal with as it is. That $7,500 probably meant a second mortgage on their home... with little kids in the household. He had to take a plea all because of how the sender labeled the shipment.
> 
> ...



1) It is very sad that your friend suffered
2 I thought of the same thing, about Zach 's forum name. That is probably why peoples asking him for the orchids.
3) I did not know that cypripedium are so popular? In fact a few months ago,I thought someone on the forum was giving away seedlings for the price of postage to peoples to try their hand on (come to think of it, I may have even respond to the offer because my brother & sister in law asking me whether they can grow cyp in New Jersey. I don't think I receive any reply for my post. maybe the person run out of seedlings)


----------



## bwester (Sep 17, 2007)

TheLorax said:


> Candace, just checked your website and then I clicked on the little blurb about you. Good Lord you're pretty. You sure when they contact you that they aren't trying to get a date or something and trying to get their leg in the door by asking for a cutting or a division of a plant?
> 
> I didn't reply to the last two.
> 
> And kentuckiense, I'm not a proponent of what's going on right now. I'm for less government regulation and more education and personal responsibility. Criminals are criminals and they're going to find a way around this sooner or later. Fortunately, the nurseries like Gore Conservatory (sp?) will still be able to get their hands on plant material for import and then we can buy from them



Lauren, I agree. Candace is a bit of a hottie, but I wouldnt call them criminals..... just creative.


----------



## TheLorax (Sep 17, 2007)

Yes Hien, it was horrible for them. They barely make ends meet as it is and to get tripped up by some person on the other end mislabeling a box to avoid permits or the costs of having the material fumigated or the cost of a phyto in favor of trying to slip the material in by mislabeling the contents was unconscionable IMHO particularly when the additional fee for a phyto as well as the costs of inspection were paid up front along with the cost of the plant and the shipping and handling. 

Who is Zach please?

Yes bwester, I saw her photo and sort of thought to myself- Hmm, why would people who can see she must run a nursery and sell plants to make a living really be contacting her to ask for cuttings and divisions. Hmm, maybe I should post my photo... as a deterrent to these types of inquiries.


----------



## kentuckiense (Sep 17, 2007)

TheLorax said:


> Who is Zach please?



That's me. Parvi grower, Cyp hunter, all around trouble maker.


----------



## TheLorax (Sep 17, 2007)

Ok, I'm starting to get it now. So many Erics and Rons and Lances that it gets hard trying to keep every one straight and then you all go and throw me for a loop by tossing in real first names just when I'm starting to figure out who everyone is!


----------



## Candace (Sep 18, 2007)

I'm still working on matching real names to screen names. It takes some time to get it down. 

Most of the people who contact me do offer to pay me or trade, but I'm so not good with the whole money thing. I prefer to trade with forum members since any money would probably just go back into plants anyway.


----------



## TheLorax (Sep 18, 2007)

Now you've lost me. You've got that many plants in that greenhouse and you aren't a nursery? If that's a hobby why is NYEric calling ME addicted? 

I'm not good with money either so don't feel bad.


----------



## rdlsreno (Sep 18, 2007)

I am confused

Ramon


----------



## goldenrose (Sep 18, 2007)

TheLorax said:


> Now you've lost me. You've got that many plants in that greenhouse and you aren't a nursery? If that's a hobby why is NYEric calling ME addicted?
> 
> I'm not good with money either so don't feel bad.


:rollhappy::rollhappy::rollhappy:
we all have different levels to our addiction!

Poor Ramon  - we do sometimes get off track don't we!

I'm sorry Blake is grumpy this morning, I'm just sitting back chuckling on all that took place in the last 15 hours!


----------



## Candace (Sep 18, 2007)

> Now you've lost me. You've got that many plants in that greenhouse and you aren't a nursery? If that's a hobby why is NYEric calling ME addicted?
> 
> I'm not good with money either so don't feel bad.



Yeah, not a nursery and will be leaving in an hour to pick up the beginnings of my second larger greenhouse. I've got some serious problems, I tell you. But, on a lighter note if you read about me on my website, my orchids get me through some tough days. Orchids can be a calming relaxation to a stressful, frusterating day. At this point, I can't joke that it's cheaper than therapy, but it's cheaper than doing heroin!


----------



## NYEric (Sep 18, 2007)

We're all addicted at some level, the latest CITES/USDA 'whoever' update will just test some peoples wills and recklessness.


----------



## TheLorax (Sep 18, 2007)

Ouch Candace, that sucks. 

I'm a little stressed over here too. I downed my 4 year old cedar and glass greenhouse on gravel and started anew a few weeks ago. I'm going with an aluminum framed poly greenhouse. The cedar was getting me sick and the glass definitely wasn't the best choice although it looked really nice. They excavated the site then poured a new concrete pad complete with footers and floor drains for me recently, came out and added a new electrical panel to the house, and are getting ready to trench for a gas line so I can use the waste oil furnace as a back up. I don't think we'll be able to trench down below the frost line for water this season but that will be taken care of sooner or later as opposed to the garden hose I had hooked up to the sink before that had to be blown out in winter. I've got plants everywhere throughout the house and scattered everwhere outside and everything is a mess. I'm thinking I'm not exactly experiencing that calming relaxing high that you're talking about and looks as if soon you won't be experiencing it either if you're going for greenhouse #2. What with the costs of greenhouses these days, heroin just might have been cheaper for me.


----------

