# Had MAJOR ISSUES with product



## MorandiWine (Feb 11, 2017)

I tried this product (on a suggested from someone here) as a preventative treatment in my greenhouse since the RH was hovering near 90% for three weeks with all the rain here in CA. 

Applied this product and the next day saw a great number of plants with light brown pock marks on leaves and chocolate brown young leaves brown all the way down to the crown. Phrags were hit heaviest with some Brachy's a close second. 

After sifting through the wreckage, this crap killed about 30 Phrags and 12 Brachy's. Blasted 15 spikes including a PK, an awardable Jason Fisher (likely going to lose it), three andreetae burned horribly but should recover and severely burned 20 young besseae.




One of the "lucky ones" Phrag Geralda.



Dont use this $hit unless you dont like your plants.

Tyler


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jaljala (Feb 11, 2017)

So sad to hear !
I had a similar experience with a different product based on H2O2 but it was my fault because I had made it to the wrong concentration. It burns plant tissue so quickly and I found Phrags to be the least resistant, while some other species made a recovery.


----------



## MorandiWine (Feb 11, 2017)

Should have added that I used the hose connection version of this and was assured by customer service that this was "safe for orchids."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fibre (Feb 11, 2017)

horrible!


----------



## Migrant13 (Feb 11, 2017)

That's a bummer. I know it's hindsight but even with assurances from the manufacturer, best to try a new product on just 1 or 2 plants to avoid wholesale damage.


----------



## SlipperFan (Feb 11, 2017)

I'm so sorry. Disappointing and really sad.


----------



## troy (Feb 11, 2017)

Man, I wander what the "other" ingredients are, terrible loss, sorry!!


----------



## NYEric (Feb 11, 2017)

Ouch!


----------



## abax (Feb 11, 2017)

What a damned shame! I hope you let the company and
the distributor know about this damage. You had substantial money invested in those plants. I think you
deserve compensation.


----------



## naoki (Feb 12, 2017)

Very sorry, Tyler. Were you using a city water faucet? Or were you using a faucet connected to a utility pump or a well water pump? I'm wondering if water pressure may influence the mixing rate of the end-of-hose mixer.

I've used Bio-Safe Mold & Mildew Control (I think it is the same), but I measure out by myself instead of using the hose-end attachment. They don't mention which dilution rate the hose-end mixer is using. The direction recommends 150x to 200x dilution, but I've used 50x without any damage. But it is possible that mine is too old.


----------



## MorandiWine (Feb 12, 2017)

Naoki, all of my water goes through a Carbon and DI filter that I make before being used on the plants. The pressure is such that the DI ends up being partial DI (250 ppm down to 25 ppm) that I dont beed to stockpile the plants water and treat it before use.

Migrant, ya...rookie move. Should have done a trial run for with a couple sacrificial plants but the situation is still was quite desperate and I was hoping on hope. Lesson learned.

Tyler 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## John M (Feb 12, 2017)

So sorry to learn of your problems. That's gotta hurt a lot! You MUST tell the manufacturer. They take events like this very seriously and they'll want to find out exactly what you used and how you used it. If you did things according to the directions, they may be willing to compensate you. You never know. I once used Funginex on the flowering orchids at the nursery where I worked in the early 90's. While it always did a great job of protecting the plants from fungal disease, in this instance, it burned and ruined the flowers, making the plants unsaleable. I contacted the manufacturer and told them. They had someone at the greenhouse the next day and they compensated us for the losses because the label did not say to avoid spraying flowers. Also, another time, again back in the early 90's, I planted 82 Rose bushes in my yard. I bought a few boxes of "blood and bone meal" to add to the rose beds. The boxes specifically said in big, bold letter, "Will not burn". So, I put a circle of this stuff around each rose bush. I was not terribly careful and I didn't worry if it touched the base of the rose bush stems because it "will not burn". That phrase was why I bought it....so that it would be easy to apply and I wouldn't have to be careful to not let it touch any part of the plants. Well, it burned! I had dead and dying rose bushes by the dozen. Again, I told the manufacturer and they paid me a settlement so that I could replace all the damaged and dead bushes. Of course, then I still had to spend a week doing a hell of a lot of replanting!




MorandiWine said:


> Should have added that I used the hose connection version of this and was assured by customer service that this was "safe for orchids."



You don't mention what is the product; but, I can't see your photos (just get a red "X"). Maybe one of them is of the package?

Anyway, I've found that those "hose-end" applicators always give you a surge of MUCH higher chemical concentration when you first press the trigger to start them up. You always need to point it at the floor at start-up and once it's going smoothly, then direct the spray towards your plants. However, then you must keep it going. If you stop and start the flow, every time you start again, it will blast out a quantity of highly concentrated chemical, overdosing your plants every time you resume spraying.


----------



## Ozpaph (Feb 12, 2017)

nasty chemical burns.
I hate it when **** like this happens.


----------



## Ray (Feb 12, 2017)

That is very surprising. I have used the stuff for years, on everything, including ex-flask phrag seedlings, and never seen anything like that.

The Biosafe hose-end sprayer is supposed to give you a final concentration of about 0.1% hydrogen peroxide. The only other ingredient is peroxyacetic acid stabilizer) at a fraction of the H2O2 concentration).

All I can guess is that the sprayer did not dilute the concentrate sufficiently, which makes me wonder about the water pressure in your RO/DI delivery system.


----------



## MorandiWine (Feb 12, 2017)

Thanks John, I have reached out to the company and explained what happened. Waiting to hear back after answering some questions. I did shoot the floor first to take care of some algae then just moved up to the benches. 

Ray, I too found it shocking since I have used H2O2 before for orchids and had no issues. The pressure was my standard hose pressure, the filters are large enough that there is just a minor (5-10psi) drop in pressure. 

Tyler


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ray (Feb 12, 2017)

I'm anxious to hear their response!


----------



## John M (Feb 12, 2017)

Good luck!!!


----------



## Gilda (Feb 13, 2017)

So sorry...I feel your pain. Went through something similar a few years ago. Lost so many of my favorite slippers. Hoping yours recover !


----------



## MorandiWine (Feb 14, 2017)

Sooo after several emails back and forth with the Biosafe people, detailing what I did and what my water parameters were (pH, TDS, NH3, NO3, Cl) time of spraying and approximate amount of spray per plant, they essentially told me to pound sand.

"We have never seen this problem in the past. The only time they have seen pitting like that is on actual flowers when the product has been used off label. We also looked at the lot number and the product has no issues noted.

Because you seem to be more of a &ldquo;grower&rdquo; then a &ldquo;homeowner&rdquo;, I think you would benefit from our commercial products and program. I would recommend speaking with a distributor or BioSafe Tech Rep in greater detail. I can refer to you someone if you don&rsquo;t have a distributor rep in your area."

Ok, well there was a problem with this one. 

No more, never again Biosafe Systems.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ray (Feb 14, 2017)

Granted, that may not have been a very satisfying response, but my own experience with their products have never shown any issues, and when the company I worked for purchased duPont's hydrogen peroxide plants and tried (unsuccessfully, due to patents) to compete with Biosafe, their testing also showed no issues.

All that makes me think that either their spray head did not meter correctly (you might be able to test that), or something entirely different is going on that nobody has connected to the issue.


----------



## MorandiWine (Feb 14, 2017)

Of course a grower can never be wrong, right? Having grown up in a retail store I have seen it all, but in this case, I followed the directions, my water was spot on, the pressure was correct and the time of day was appropriate. That leaves only a few things: underlying issues with the plants, bad valve or simply a bad bottle of material. I understand that the company will back their product and defend it but there just seems to be something else going on. And then to suggest that I purchase other products from them to me seems like a slap in the face. 

All in all I am out some really nice plants and have plants that will take years to recover. The most damage was sustained by Phrags so maybe by unfortunate expensive disaster can be added to the list of plants that cant handle this crap. 

Again, BioSafe lost a customer and I will never be recommending their products ever. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mark Karayannis (Feb 14, 2017)

Really sorry for such a big loss. Don,t give up, make sure you find out what really happened


----------



## gego (Feb 15, 2017)

MorandiWine said:


> Of course a grower can never be wrong, right? Having grown up in a retail store I have seen it all, but in this case, I followed the directions, my water was spot on, the pressure was correct and the time of day was appropriate. That leaves only a few things: underlying issues with the plants, bad valve or simply a bad bottle of material. I understand that the company will back their product and defend it but there just seems to be something else going on. And then to suggest that I purchase other products from them to me seems like a slap in the face.
> 
> All in all I am out some really nice plants and have plants that will take years to recover. The most damage was sustained by Phrags so maybe by unfortunate expensive disaster can be added to the list of plants that cant handle this crap.
> 
> ...



I have used H2O2 at 3% poured directly to the leaves and drench the media. There was a lot of fizzling but leaves were not burned just like that. But when there are open wounds from mites or mechanical damage, that area get burned but only on the older leaves. The bottle says 5% of H2O2, I wonder what your final dilution is.


----------



## MorandiWine (Feb 15, 2017)

Taken 24 hours after application

No fizzing but tons of damage. 



Now! Its dead. A gorgeous JF that had a huge spike with branches.

These plants were flawless, maybe a touch of mealy on a couple Paphs but they were not effected aside from a niveum.


It has now lost all its leaves as well.

I will guarantee that the valve was not working properly. Never again!

Tyler


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## NYEric (Feb 17, 2017)

2 words. Dragon's Blood. Not as a preventative but to stop problems if they arise.


----------



## John M (Feb 17, 2017)

Pushing you to buy more product from them in their unsatisfactory reply about the damage their product has done, is unconscionable. Tyler, if you are certain that the issue is a problem with their product or the valve on their equipment, send them an invoice for damages. Let them know you are a squeeky wheel that will not stop until you are satisfied with their response. If they ignore you, or continue to refuse to accept any responsibility, tell them that you will begin searching for others who've had the same issue and file a class-action lawsuit. It's clear (from the fact that they pushed you to buy more of their product, in the same breath in which they dismissed your claim), that they're not taking you seriously, or respecting you. You should also begin communicating with the CEO of the company, not some front-line customer service/damage control employee. Good luck!


----------



## MorandiWine (Feb 17, 2017)

Thanks John.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Secundino (Feb 18, 2017)

So sorry for you - those photos hurt. It is very hard to learn this way that a product is not safe.


----------



## chrismende (Feb 20, 2017)

Tyler, my sympathies! That's a devastating experience.


----------

