# Complex Paph Breeding



## gdupont (Dec 9, 2016)

What's the history of this, or, why is it so popular? What should I look for in these hybrids?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tnyr5 (Dec 9, 2016)

It would be best to break this first question up into small bite-sized chunks (the history of white complex breeding, trends in popularity of complex spotted reds over time, etc), each with its own thread, as to answer your question as-is would require 20 books lol. 

In very general terms, look for full & round over big (but take both if you can get it), as flat as possible without ruining the roundness, heavy substance, wide segments, a dorsal without much of a midrib, a synsepal that is wide and broad that serves as a backdrop to the pouch and "completes the circle", and strong, clear colors and markings.


----------



## JAB (Dec 9, 2016)

Koopiwitz's book "Tropical Slipper Orchids" is perhaps the best source on species and complex hybridization of Paphs! Not only history, but lots of solid tips as to what to look for in progeny. 
As to what and why... that is personal choice. I love thainum crosses. Tony loves maudiae. Much like their pollinators I imagine, various things attract us to specific flowers albeit shape, size, color, or smell. 

Cheers
JAB


----------



## Happypaphy7 (Dec 9, 2016)

Regarding shape, if you want awards, then what Tony says. 
Otherwise, get what appeal to you the most.


----------



## troy (Dec 9, 2016)

If you want a like complex paph, get any paph then run it over with your car, it will be flat and round hahaha...


----------



## NYEric (Dec 9, 2016)

Most complex blooms last a really long time.


----------



## tnyr5 (Dec 9, 2016)

JAB said:


> I love thainum crosses. Tony loves maudiae.


I do? lol


----------



## troy (Dec 9, 2016)

Bulldog / complex paphs consist of dozens of dozens if not hundreds of crosses, not one single origional parent trait, if you don't like a paph and it blooms, cross it with another and another etc.. etc..


----------



## Happypaphy7 (Dec 9, 2016)

troy said:


> ...not one single origional parent trait...



You know that is completely false. 
The overall round shape does come from brachy influence, bellatulum and niveum, and the color and patterns, also represent all the parental species involved. Many of the "undesirable" ones actually look quite similar to their parental species on steroid.

Flower longevity, thick floral parts, staminode, glossy surface...all from their original parental species.


----------



## troy (Dec 9, 2016)

What I said is true, show me a bulldog that resembles 1 trait from an origional parent


----------



## troy (Dec 9, 2016)

Might as well get a phalaenopsis, flat and round, alot cheaper!!!


----------



## troy (Dec 9, 2016)

I come to realize that I've been rude about relaying my thoughts about this paph group, you complex / bulldog lovers are entitled to your interest, I'll hold of on my thoughts, happy growing!!


----------



## gdupont (Dec 9, 2016)

JAB said:


> Koopiwitz's book "Tropical Slipper Orchids" is perhaps the best source on species and complex hybridization of Paphs! Not only history, but lots of solid tips as to what to look for in progeny.
> As to what and why... that is personal choice. I love thainum crosses. Tony loves maudiae. Much like their pollinators I imagine, various things attract us to specific flowers albeit shape, size, color, or smell.
> 
> Cheers
> JAB



I love thaianum! What thaianum crosses are you thinking of?


----------



## Happypaphy7 (Dec 9, 2016)

troy said:


> What I said is true, show me a bulldog that resembles 1 trait from an origional parent



I guess you didn't see my post. 
All of them!

You are free to express your opinion, just be nicer. lol
Or if you don't like it so much, which is perfectly fine, why would you even visit this topic?


----------



## Tom-DE (Dec 9, 2016)

I remember Dr. Koopowitz wrote an article on complex Paph history 10-15 years ago. Great article!

I like complex Paph. and I still have a FCC Winston Churchill and a couple more awarded ones in my collection.


----------



## cnycharles (Dec 9, 2016)

Maybe a far-back look at Why Slippers So Fanatically Popular' could go back to the early 1800's (or when orchids in general First Got Really Big). 
There were a bunch of mostly British, possibly some European super wealthyites who in order to be the most famous or infamous would go find, collect and try to bring home the newest amazing orchids. Professionally hired collectors would search primal lands high and low and collect the newest and wildest plants they saw. Hundreds of people could be tasked with the retrieval and hopeful deposition of the one prized orchid. This being the sport of true men, jungles were stripped and burned, lives scattered to the four winds, thousands of plants trampled, derooted, stacked like cordwood in the dank holds of ships; half rotted placed into dim, fiery hothouses, all so ones reputation could be maintained

Needless to say, sometimes things got serious. The craze swept the globe, slippers seemed to gain malevolence because of their weird shapes, dangling and swaying jaws and sometimes the furtive presence of a distant scent
Getting to more modern times, Mr Knudsen discovered sterile orchid culture and suddenly orchids were available to the masses ravaging at the gates, and all civility was lost (orchids were cloned, trademarked and their original names deemed 'unimportant '

But not the slinky sneaky slippers... (gollum, gollum) they still mostly defied mass production, so have maintained an elusive desirability and higher pricetag because of the more difficulty in mass production 

They are of course much more available through seed production, but the highly desired clones are still only available through growth and division


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JAB (Dec 10, 2016)

Tony
It was an example. I have no clue if you love maudie LOL! 

GDUPONT
I only have species and a compot of thai x roth, but I love the species and everything I have seen it crossed with thus far.


----------



## gdupont (Dec 10, 2016)

JAB said:


> I only have species and a compot of thai x roth, but I love the species and everything I have seen it crossed with thus far.



Sweet! Do you have an image??


----------



## Happypaphy7 (Dec 10, 2016)

I thought by complex, you meant "bull dog" Paphiopedilum hybrids?


----------



## terryros (Dec 11, 2016)

The term "complex hybrid" applies to all the different orchid genera, not just Paphs., so it is not a synonym of "bulldog".

Primary hybrids are the joining of two different species within an orchid genus. Paph. Maudiae is a primary hybrid (callosum x lawrenceanum). The backcross (lawrenceanum x Maudiae) is Alma Gevaert, which contains just the same two species, so we get the term "near primary" hybrid. This can go on forever as Paph. (Alma Gevaert x Maudiae) became Paph Almaud, still containing the same two species. Somewhere in here the term "Maudiae-type" hybrid probably got coined to convey a particular shape/coloration theme to a cross. 

The entrance of a third species is probably what crosses the bridge into "complex land". Paph (curtisii x Maudiae) is Paph Emerald and (Emerald x Maudiae) became the famous hybrid Paph Claire de Lune. I think of this as a "Maudiae-type", but "complex" hybrid. But the term "Maudiae" isn't even specific to Paph, since there is a Cymbidium Maudiae and an Oncidopsis Maudiae!

The first time the name "Bulldog" was used with an orchid hybrid was 1979 in Paph British Bulldog, which was (Small World x Winston Churchill), but subsequently there was a Cymbidium Bulldog and an Oncidium Bulldog, so the term "Bulldog" isn't really specific to Paphs. But, Paph Winston Churchill was an incredibly famous and important Paph hybrid registered in 1951 and Sir Churchill's countenance and attitude was often called "bulldog like". Winston Churchill already contained 6 different species, so it was very complex, but the term "bulldog Paph" came to refer to large, mostly round, usually spotted, and usually red/brown colored complex Paph hybrids.

Keeping it simple, I think of complex hybrids of any orchid genus as containing 3 or more different species. I think of Maudiae-type and Bulldog-type Paphs as describing a particular shape and coloration of a Paph hybrid. There are growers who lean strongly toward only wanting to have species or primary hybrids in a particular genera, while others may care only about having the largest, most colorful hybrids, which may mean a preponderance of very complex hybrids, usually with some tetraploid things thrown in. Even by the 1940s, every large, white Phalaenopsis contained at least 3 species, so was complex.

I just bloomed Rlc. Yoshiko, made by Orchids Limited, and this Cattleya-alliance hybrid contains a mix of 21 different species, and I am sure that other hybrids can cram in even more species.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## Happypaphy7 (Dec 11, 2016)

I'm aware of that, we all know when people say complex paph, it's generally understood as bull dog hybrids unless otherwise specified. 

It's been dealt that way here until I saw a member mention Roth and thaianum, hence my last comment.


----------



## ksriramkumar (Dec 12, 2016)

Thank you Very much Terry for explaining it in such detail. Can I share this in facebook group (if you permit off course)



terryros said:


> The term "complex hybrid" applies to all the different orchid genera, not just Paphs., so it is not a synonym of "bulldog".
> 
> Primary hybrids are the joining of two different species within an orchid genus. Paph. Maudiae is a primary hybrid (callosum x lawrenceanum). The backcross (lawrenceanum x Maudiae) is Alma Gevaert, which contains just the same two species, so we get the term "near primary" hybrid. This can go on forever as Paph. (Alma Gevaert x Maudiae) became Paph Almaud, still containing the same two species. Somewhere in here the term "Maudiae-type" hybrid probably got coined to convey a particular shape/coloration theme to a cross.
> 
> ...


----------



## terryros (Dec 12, 2016)

Of course, nothing unique in what I said, just pulling together some things. For those who don't know about it, the web site BlueNanta.com is great to be looking at hybrids and what has been bred with what.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## Happypaphy7 (Dec 12, 2016)

I know. Just clarifying myself. 
Thank you for your summary.


----------

