# Hangianums for sale in Florida



## aquacorps (Apr 7, 2009)

Odom's Orchids in Florida has NBS plants for sale. I dont care for Parvi's, but I thought I would share the link. rusty

http://www.odoms.com/getinventory.cfm?category=Lady Slippers


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## NYEric (Apr 7, 2009)

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! 
So it begins!


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## Hien (Apr 7, 2009)

Since hangianum is so variable, it would be nice if the sellers show the parents' flowers, or at least, the parents' clone names so the buyers would know what to expect from the seedlings


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## KyushuCalanthe (Apr 7, 2009)

OK, I don't mean to be a dummy, but are these the same plants that were sold at the WOC in Miami last year? I'm surprised at the cheap price too! Only $40 for a NBS plant? I figured the first legal plants would have fetched a lot more.


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## SlipperFan (Apr 7, 2009)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> OK, I don't mean to be a dummy, but are these the same plants that were sold at the WOC in Miami last year? I'm surprised at the cheap price too! Only $40 for a NBS plant? I figured the first legal plants would have fetched a lot more.



My thoughts, exactly!


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## Hien (Apr 7, 2009)

Are they normal color or these are the red hangianum flasks that Eric mentioned last year? If it is that would be a decent price no doubt.
Does anyone remember wether they sold more than one cross in Florida?


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## smartie2000 (Apr 7, 2009)

that is cheap indeed....


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## WolfDog1 (C. Williams) (Apr 7, 2009)

They did sell more than one cross at the WOC. I bought a flask of them and ended up taking it back to the vendor because they are not legal in the US. I spoke to the head of the US Fish and Wildlife department and he told me specifically that even though they had the proper entry paperwork, the vendor had been told to stop selling them because of their illegal status here. However, I bought my after that. I struggled with the decision to return the flask and ask for my money back, but I did anyway. I have had many second thoughts about it since that time and know that there are many people here in the US that now have what they believe to be legal plants.

I wont go into the explanation that I was given for the US stance on the illegal status of the plants, but chances are the position of the US government on the issue will prevail if anyone gets arrested over it. 

I can't wait for them to be legal in the US. I guess until that time I will live vicariously through those people who are willing to take the risk. 

(sigh)

Craig


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## SlipperKing (Apr 8, 2009)

There's no way these plants for sale at Odem's came out of a flask last year! Has anyone called them up and ask about the legality of their plants?


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## Elena (Apr 8, 2009)

WolfDog1 (C. Williams) said:


> I spoke to the head of the US Fish and Wildlife department and he told me specifically that even though they had the proper entry paperwork, the vendor had been told to stop selling them because of their illegal status here.



The Cites thing is really confusing. I mean if the plants have all the correct paperwork and they are in flasks (so presumably artificially propagated) then what is it that makes them illegal? An what would make them legal?


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## Ernie (Apr 8, 2009)

Elena said:


> The Cites thing is really confusing. I mean if the plants have all the correct paperwork and they are in flasks (so presumably artificially propagated) then what is it that makes them illegal? An what would make them legal?



_Senso stricto_, the PARENTS that made the plants in the flask must also be legally collected per CITES, that is with the blessing of the government of the country of origin. The US is one of the few countries that use this verbatim interpretation. I spoke with Roddy Gabel of US Fish & Wildlife (he's also a Paph grower) about this along with Wolfdog at Miami WOC and Vietnam has told the US that they have NOT released ANY legal hangianums or given collection permits for them. That might have changed by now, but was true in Jan 2008. The other issue is that neighboring China claims to have its own populations of hangianums which they have released, but last I heard no one could verify this. There are a handful of Paph breeders in Taiwan, who welcomes (???) their association with China when it comes to CITES plants, and many of the propagated hangs come from there I believe. I'm sure someone here could clarify the relationship between China and Taiwan better than I (no offense intended). 

-Ernie


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## Elena (Apr 8, 2009)

Thanks Ernie! I understand that. However, in that case why did the US govt issue import permits (I'm assuming that's what Craig meant by "proper entry paperwork") for the hanginums that were available for sale at the WOC?


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## Ernie (Apr 8, 2009)

Because the person that issued the paperwork possibly wasn't familiar with what was being imported OR the identity of the plants or the "legalness" of the parents was, let's say, disguised. Use your imagination...

-Ernie


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## Elena (Apr 8, 2009)

Ernie said:


> OR the identity of the plants or the "legalness" of the parents was, let's say, disguised. Use your imagination...
> 
> -Ernie



Yup, I get that but I figured that if head dude said that the paperwork was proper then it meant that the permits actually said hangianum on them rather than, say, emersonii or Winston Churchill or Maxillaria 

A for a govt official not knowing what they were dealing with when issuing the permits then, well, that to me seems like a pretty embarrassing gaffe. Having said that, I'm obviously not familiar with the US system and it might well be harder to keep track of things in such a large country.


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## Hien (Apr 8, 2009)

1) Slipperking:
There's no way these plants for sale at Odem's came out of a flask last year! Has anyone called them up and ask about the legality of their plants?

-I remember that peoples who went to the convention mentioned that there were both plants & flasks available. So perhaps these are the seedling plants from last year & not the plants from flasks. If so the 40 dollar price reflects the plant's size.

2) Ernie:
Vietnam has told the US that they have NOT released ANY legal hangianums or given collection permits for them. That might have changed by now, but was true in Jan 2008. The other issue is that neighboring China claims to have its own populations of hangianums which they have released, but last I heard no one could verify this.

- Vietnam did export plants to China (whether very very cheaply as herb plants in bulk, or as someone even said with proper Cites, but now they change their tune, and claim that it have never happened, only Gods know the reason of this denying) It is too late for them to play game & hope to get any profit out of it any way, since China & Taiwan already made many flasks & hybrids.


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## Leo Schordje (Apr 8, 2009)

I think the problem arises from this odd Catch 22 contradiction in the law. 

1.) - Homeland Security (Customs) and Department of Agriculture (APHIS) control & enforce import and export law. Here flasks may be imported LEGALLY. I would guess Roddy Gabel was referring to this paperwork when he said the flasks were legally imported. If they are in flask, APHIS will approve them to enter the country. 

2.) The Lacey Act is enforced by US Fish & Wildlife and really nobody else. This is the USA Law that contains the _Senso Stricto_ interpretation that Ernie was referring to. Here the fruit of the poison tree is poison. Here is where the hangianums, not having official permission to leave Viet Nam and having no satisfactorily documented population in China, here is where hangianum is illegal in the USA. 

Now because only USFWS is charged wiith enforcing the Lacey Act, you end up with the curious situation where the flasks are legal, but the plants out of flask are not. This of course drives sane men crazy. 

In my opinion, the only way to get the law fixed is to ignore the one you don't like. If enough people ignore it, they will have to give up and go away. Eventually the rules will get re-written. But this is only my opinion.


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## Elena (Apr 8, 2009)

Thanks for the explanation, Leo, that clears things up.


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## NYEric (Apr 8, 2009)

There were flasks and seedlings (good roots, 2-3" leafspans; a number of which went to the West Coast) at the WOC. There is no reason to believe these are the source of the ones listed for sale by Odoms.


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Apr 8, 2009)

I contacted them about the size of the plants. I got a one sentence reply.

The leafspan is about 5-6". We are probably looking at 2 years to bloom.


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## Hien (Apr 8, 2009)

Bob in Albany said:


> I contacted them about the size of the plants. I got a one sentence reply.
> 
> The leafspan is about 5-6". We are probably looking at 2 years to bloom.



So they are large seedlings & yet to be fully mature, the price is about right.
Too bad, the description mentions that they are with a little bit of red, it does not sound like they are the red ones from flasks at the convention, otherwise I would be very tempted to order a few.
Any way, they can even be made to bloom at this leaf size.
In fact my friends told me that good growers can bloom large seedlings of many species (some species even bloom in flask)


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## SlipperKing (Apr 8, 2009)

So Bob, Did you ask about the paperwork? or how they came by them? I just called and got a answer machine


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## kentuckiense (Apr 8, 2009)

Leo Schordje said:


> In my opinion, the only way to get the law fixed is to ignore the one you don't like. If enough people ignore it, they will have to give up and go away. Eventually the rules will get re-written. But this is only my opinion.



I agree. There is nothing "immoral" about getting "illegal" seed-propagated plants such as these.


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Apr 8, 2009)

Sorry Rick I just asked about the plant size.


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## NYEric (Apr 8, 2009)

THe only paperwork you now need is a vendor receipt.


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## SlipperKing (Apr 8, 2009)

Well a smart guy or gal with money would buy all that they have. then sell them for double or more the money though Ebay maybe


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## Ernie (Apr 8, 2009)

SlipperKing said:


> Well a smart guy or gal with money would buy all that they have. then sell them for double or more the money though Ebay maybe



I'd say USFW would trouble the source with many plants and not the hobbyist with a couple. If someone were to buy a bunch from them then resell in plain sight, they'd make themself the big red spot in the middle of the dart board IMO. 

-Ernie


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## Hien (Apr 9, 2009)

Ernie said:


> I'd say USFW would trouble the source with many plants and not the hobbyist with a couple. If someone were to buy a bunch from them then resell in plain sight, they'd make themself the big red spot in the middle of the dart board IMO.
> 
> -Ernie



He means to buy them from Odom Orchids, then resell later (not to import a whole bunch then resell)


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## Hien (Apr 9, 2009)

Ernie said:


> I'd say USFW would trouble the source with many plants and not the hobbyist with a couple. If someone were to buy a bunch from them then resell in plain sight, they'd make themself the big red spot in the middle of the dart board IMO.
> 
> -Ernie



I don't think it is highly profitable to buy these in bulk then resell later, since the price is already at 40.00, not counting shipping, one may not make much in reselling.


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## Ernie (Apr 9, 2009)

Hien said:


> He means to buy them from Odom Orchids, then resell later (not to import a whole bunch then resell)



I know. That's how I interpretted it too. It's late, I'll stop now. 

-Ernie


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## Ernie (Apr 9, 2009)

Hien said:


> I don't think it is highly profitable to buy these in bulk then resell later, since the price is already at 40.00, not counting shipping, one may not make much in reselling.



Agreed. 

-Ernie


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## SlipperKing (Apr 9, 2009)

Oh you guys are just saying that to get the jump on me!:rollhappy:


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## Hien (Apr 9, 2009)

If they blooming out "RED" , do post a photo, I will kick myself for not buying them:rollhappy::rollhappy:
Oh by the way, either someone took your advice or a lot of slippertalk fellows come ru..u..u..u..ning to Odom's Orchid door, for I do not see the plants listed anymore.



SlipperKing said:


> Oh you guys are just saying that to get the jump on me!:rollhappy:


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## SlipperKing (Apr 9, 2009)

Hien said:


> If they blooming out "RED" , do post a photo, I will kick myself for not buying them:rollhappy::rollhappy:
> Oh by the way, either someone took your advice or a lot of slippertalk fellows come ru..u..u..u..ning to Odom's Orchid door, for I do not see the plants listed anymore.


Interesting Hien, They soild like "hot Cakes" or something else got "Hot":evil:


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## Hien (Apr 9, 2009)

SlipperKing said:


> Interesting Hien, They soild like "hot Cakes" or something else got "Hot":evil:


 Should the two of us venture enough to assume that a year from now , we will be seeing a lot of hangianum photos posted by our fellow members?:clap::drool::clap:


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## SlipperKing (Apr 9, 2009)

Or sooner!


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## Leo Schordje (Apr 9, 2009)

:evil: I got my order confirmation, didn't you? oke:
Only bought one.


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## GaryB (Apr 9, 2009)

:evil:I've been a bad boy; Two for me


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## Hien (Apr 9, 2009)

Leo Schordje said:


> :evil: I got my order confirmation, didn't you? oke:
> Only bought one.



That proves the conventional wisdom should always be followed
-Early bird gets the worm (maybe one or two, possibly many more)
-On time bird still get may be one worm or a left over tattered one
-Late arrival bird get zip for being slow


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## luvsorchids (Apr 9, 2009)

> we will be seeing a lot of hangianum photos posted by our fellow members



This all seems quite competitive. Maybe there should be a contest to see who blooms one first :clap:.

Susan


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## Elena (Apr 9, 2009)

luvsorchids said:


> This all seems quite competitive. Maybe there should be a contest to see who blooms one first :clap:.
> 
> Susan



A race! The rest of us can place some bets


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## Ernie (Apr 9, 2009)

Know the quote "Good things come to those who wait"???

Well, Abraham Lincoln made a slight modification that is most appropriate:

"Good things come to those who wait, but only things left behind by those who hustle."  Good job Abe. 

-Ernie


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## Hien (Apr 9, 2009)

GaryB said:


> :evil:I've been a bad boy; Two for me



I would say
you are the MAN, the early bird.
Leo the on time bird.
And since I am now typically the late bird after being the early bird with so many dying kovachii flasks . I was agonizing over the fact that Odom described the flower is with a little red at the center and not a red flower. Consequencely I got Zipilly none.
Will have to wait to see between the two of you, Leo or you will win the blooming race


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## SlipperKing (Apr 9, 2009)

Who knows Hien, maybe I'll WIN! (fast somebody give me another source!)


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## NYEric (Apr 9, 2009)

I already have mine. It's the jackii trip that'll be exciting!


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## aquacorps (Apr 10, 2009)

Odem's no longer has Hangianum's on their web site.


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## SlipperKing (Apr 14, 2009)

aquacorps said:


> Odem's no longer has Hangianum's on their web site.


Solid out HuH?


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## NYEric (Apr 14, 2009)

or scared off, unfortunately.


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## Leo Schordje (Apr 14, 2009)

NYEric said:


> or scared off, unfortunately.



I doubt they are afraid - most likely sold out


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## GaryB (Apr 15, 2009)

They're here :clap:

My order was delivered today. Both plants look good and have a 9-10" leaf span. Pictures to follow.


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## GaryB (Apr 15, 2009)

The hangianums are potted in a very fine mix like a potting mix with half the pot filled with peanuts.


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## Ernie (Apr 15, 2009)

Those are some great looking plants! If they were mine, and they came in some odd mix like that, I'd repot immediately into something I was familiar with. 

-Ernie


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## goldenrose (Apr 16, 2009)

:clap: They look great!
..... are you feeling just a wee bit guilty?!


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## NYEric (Apr 16, 2009)

Nice, where do you live? :evil:


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## luvsorchids (Apr 16, 2009)

Very nice looking plants .

Susan


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## goldenrose (Apr 16, 2009)

NYEric said:


> Nice, where do you live? :evil:


  and this is why some don't put their location! :rollhappy:
I'll be your lookout, there's two, one for each of us!


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## Ernie (Apr 16, 2009)

goldenrose said:


> and this is why some don't put their location! :rollhappy:
> I'll be your lookout, there's two, one for each of us!



AND I know where BOTH of YOU live!!! :evil:

-Ernie


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## GaryB (Apr 16, 2009)

Guilty? Nope, we all had an equal opportunity. 

You are welcome to come get them, just ask these guys if you can have one oke:






Ernie, I agree with your recommendation. I think what I will take from how they are potted now is that hangianum doesn't like to stay wet.

I'll post pictures when they bloom

Gary


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## Elena (Apr 16, 2009)

Are they really your dogs, Gary? They are beautiful. Nice plants too!


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## NYEric (Apr 16, 2009)

Rose, when we get to his yard, you hold this bag of pork chops, see! I'll go in while you distract the small puppies; yeah, that's the ticket!


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## GaryB (Apr 16, 2009)

NYEric said:


> Rose, when we get to his yard, you hold this bag of pork chops, see! I'll go in while you distract the small puppies; yeah, that's the ticket!



Bag? :rollhappy: 

Better bring a shopping cart! Mastiffs can weigh as much as 250 lbs.


(And no, they are not mine, but they worked well in the response)


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## nikv (Apr 16, 2009)

You see, that's the difference between dogs and cats. Dogs will actually guard a property. My cats, on the other hand, only need a burglar to scratch them behind the ears and then they'll lead them to where the valuables are hidden.


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## Ernie (Apr 16, 2009)

GaryB said:


> Guilty? Nope, we all had an equal opportunity.
> 
> Ernie, I agree with your recommendation. I think what I will take from how they are potted now is that hangianum doesn't like to stay wet.
> 
> ...



Hmmm, consider where they were... Florida, right? I'd guess the grower used the sphagnum peat moss mix so they didn't have to water constantly. I can see bark mixes drying really quick in FL. Okay for pseudobulb-ous things, but not for slippers. Just a guess. I'd grow them just like any ther Parvi if I had any. They are supposed to be tougher than emersonii (not saying much there). Maybe our Canadian, European, and Australian friends can lend a hand. 

-Ernie


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## Wendy (Apr 16, 2009)

I grow mine in Coconut and Perlite and let them get to just moist before watering again. They grow well in that for me. Both of mine are just approaching blooming size.


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## goldenrose (Apr 16, 2009)

GaryB said:


> Bag? :rollhappy:
> Better bring a shopping cart! Mastiffs can weigh as much as 250 lbs.
> (And no, they are not mine, but they worked well in the response)


:rollhappy::rollhappy: a friend of mine use to have 4-5 mastiffs & lived in Chicago, on a postage size lot! It's the minefield they'd leave that I'd be more concerned about!


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## Leo Schordje (Apr 16, 2009)

Ernie has met my beasts, a 120 pound malemute-shepard mix and at the time a 70 pound Siberian Husky. And Ernie has seen the back yard. I swear it seems like 100 pound of dog food in, 200 pounds out into the yard - how do they do that?


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## smartie2000 (Apr 17, 2009)

My plant grows in fine bark + charcoal + perlite/sponge rock and dolomite lime. Watering approx 5 days, so just as the bark is drier/moist, but not completely dried (like my other paphs). Mine has three leaves and its sending its spring leaf. 9 inches across.
My hangianum hybrids are faster, but the species isn't deathly slow. I can't compare hangnianum to emersonii since I've never had one. I've messed up on other paphs, but not this one so I am happy 

Your new hangianums approach BS, they look the size like the photos of plants in bloom to me. But I've never seen a bloom in person so I can be wrong.

There is another cross available for sale that I don't have. I'm debating. Its stonei x hangianum. I wonder how fast it grows. 
My rothschildianum x hangianum is three growths now, and grows well But the leaf span is probably not BS.


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## Elena (Apr 17, 2009)

My only observation so far is that the spike on my Chou Yi Yuki (hangianum x niveum) is sloooow


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## GaryB (Apr 17, 2009)

Ernie said:


> Hmmm, consider where they were... Florida, right? I'd guess the grower used the sphagnum peat moss mix so they didn't have to water constantly. I can see bark mixes drying really quick in FL. Okay for pseudobulb-ous things, but not for slippers. Just a guess. I'd grow them just like any ther Parvi if I had any. They are supposed to be tougher than emersonii (not saying much there). Maybe our Canadian, European, and Australian friends can lend a hand.
> 
> -Ernie



I was under the impression that stuff in Florida stays wetter due to high humidity and more rain. So mixes needed to be more open and better draining.

Also the bottom half of the pot is packing peanuts, which is part of the reason for concluding that they don't like to stay too wet.
Gary


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## goldenrose (Apr 17, 2009)

GaryB said:


> ..... the bottom half of the pot is packing peanuts, which is part of the reason for concluding that they don't like to stay too wet. Gary



or have a shallow root system?


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## GaryB (Apr 17, 2009)

There is a good post on the other slipper orchid forum from someone from Italy who has been growing them from flask for a # of years. You an go there to read it, but he uses a very open mix ( mostly rock and perlite type stuff) that dries quickly and they are watered frequently.


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## Leo Schordje (Apr 17, 2009)

I am banned for life from SOF. Not worth going over there. I'll read Averynof's articles again instead.


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## NYEric (Apr 17, 2009)

Welcome to Slippertalk! 
Mine are big enough to bloom I think, somebody tell me the bloom secret!


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## Rick (Apr 17, 2009)

With comparison to emersonii, I was suprised that they seem to by light and heat adverse. Once moving over near the wet pad at phal light levels, mine took off. I would think this would be more important for flasklings than adult plants too.


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