# Roth Growth Rates



## MorandiWine (Apr 5, 2016)

I am doing an experiment and actually looking for some feedback from the ST Hive Mind.

How quickly do new roth leaves grow out of the fan? If you have actual numbers instead of "pretty fast/slow," that would be awesome!

Thanks

Tyler


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## paphioland (Apr 5, 2016)

Ummmm. This depends on many many things. Genetics, temp, humidity, light, gasses, fertilization, potting mix, watering schedule. How all these things interact.


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## MorandiWine (Apr 5, 2016)

I realize that, just trying to get some sort of aggregate data.


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## gego (Apr 5, 2016)

This is a very interesting inquiry and I would like to know myself. What ever roth clone you have and culture you use, how fast/slow does it grow for you?

Tyler is asking for numbers. I hope I didn't change your original question.


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## MorandiWine (Apr 5, 2016)

That is EXACTLY what I am looking for.

Example:
Perfection x Tarantula
85 day
70 night
480 PAR
Watered every three days, fert every other watering. (You can disclose fertilizers, but not required for this survey)
Growth = "x" cm/month

Thanks

Tyler


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## gego (Apr 6, 2016)

No entry yet Tyler.

I wish I have some data myself, just like you I started my experiment about two months ago. I bought 5 cheap clones at POE to experiment with. A sixth one is a more expensive clone from Sam. I got them bareroot so they are still recovering but I can see some growth already.

Just like you I would like to have some reference to gage my result. Hopefully some experienced growers/hobbyist will give you some numbers.


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## Stone (Apr 6, 2016)

Pardon my ignorance but what will you do with the info?
It kinda is what it is..isn't it?
If it helps, seedling to flowering size in less than 3 years has been achieved with 25 to 30C temps.


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## MorandiWine (Apr 6, 2016)

I am doing an experiment utilizing different light sources and I am trying to establish some sort of mean growth rate for roths. This data will hopefully either prove or disprove my theory. 

Stone, if you dont mind....what was the approximate start size and what was the end flowering size? 


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## Stone (Apr 6, 2016)

MorandiWine said:


> I am doing an experiment utilizing different light sources and I am trying to establish some sort of mean growth rate for roths. This data will hopefully either prove or disprove my theory.
> 
> Stone, if you dont mind....what was the approximate start size and what was the end flowering size?
> 
> ...



It was flask to flower. I don't know the end flowering size but it was a California nursery. A friend who visited it told me what they told him. From the pics I think I remember the flowering plants where not small. They were fed to the max as well.


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## Leo Schordje (Apr 6, 2016)

I saw a roth go from flask to bloom in 3 years, grown under lights in Chicago area. The grower kept all the seedlings from the flask, roughly 20 plants. The one that bloomed in 3 years galloped ahead of the rest. Next one to bloom was 5 years. Third did not bloom until 7 years. Majority of the 20 seedlings took 8 to 10 years. All from same flask. Average for the flask was 8 to 10 years, with some that were composted because at 10 years they still had not bloomed. 

So "individual results will vary" is the motto. In most flasks, one or two seedlings will gallop ahead, then there will be the main group, and then there will be the stragglers. 

Your horticulture will be key, if it is not consistent you can measure all you want but the data will be useless. Genetics plays a role too. Dumb luck is important too. 

I think under ideal horticulture, it might be possible to bring the main group to bloom in about 5 to 6 years, but there will always be outliers at both ends of the range.


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## Linus_Cello (Apr 6, 2016)

Leo Schordje said:


> I saw a roth go from flask to bloom in 3 years, grown under lights in Chicago area. The grower kept all the seedlings from the flask, roughly 20 plants. The one that bloomed in 3 years galloped ahead of the rest. Next one to bloom was 5 years. Third did not bloom until 7 years. Majority of the 20 seedlings took 8 to 10 years. All from same flask. Average for the flask was 8 to 10 years, with some that were composted because at 10 years they still had not bloomed.
> 
> So "individual results will vary" is the motto. In most flasks, one or two seedlings will gallop ahead, then there will be the main group, and then there will be the stragglers.



Did the quality of the blooms vary based on how quickly the plant bloomed? Did the early bloomers rebloom soon?


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## gego (Apr 6, 2016)

So let's get an average rate,

Assuming from seedling to BS took 7 years average.

# of leaves: 8 ave (4 on each side)
ave length: 8 in

Total length: 64 in
Total months: 84

So length per month: 64/84= 0.7619 in or 1.93 cm/mo (ave)

Is this close enough? You may tweak the total length of leaves to get a reasonable rate.

This rate is similar to a vanda growth. And vandas are heavily fed.
Low PPM of fert wont do it.


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## tnyr5 (Apr 6, 2016)

I would literally go insane if my roths only grew 1.93cm per month. lol


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## gego (Apr 6, 2016)

tnyr5 said:


> I would literally go insane if my roths only grew 1.93cm per month. lol



Oh here we go. So more than that, like 2.5 cm/mo? or more? You double the first would mean 3.5 years to BS (I mean blooming size,lol)


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## naoki (Apr 6, 2016)

MorandiWine said:


> I am doing an experiment utilizing different light sources and I am trying to establish some sort of mean growth rate for roths. This data will hopefully either prove or disprove my theory.



If you have an access to a CO2 sensor, you can assess the effectiveness of light with something similar to what Polyanthus has done (the photos are gone, though):
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32896

But the CO2 sensor/monitor/logger is still somewhat pricey (cheapest is around $100, and I'm not sure about their quality). If you know well about electronics, you can make it cheaper with Arduino. I did manage to find a brand new Honeywell IAQ Point (IAQPT-SM-A-D) for $35 from eBay, which I'm using for my grow tent. http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39794 I occasionally see some Honeywell IAQ (indoor air quality) monitors on eBay, but usually more expensive.


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## tnyr5 (Apr 6, 2016)

gego said:


> Oh here we go. So more than that, like 2.5 cm/mo? or more? You double the first would mean 3.5 years to BS (I mean blooming size,lol)



Oh for the love of....

March 16th, 2016






April 6th, 2016



top of pot is 6.5 inch diameter for reference.


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## MorandiWine (Apr 6, 2016)

Yes I realize that there are many factors, luck being one of them. Its not a real controlled study, more an leisure examination. My base plants (50 in total) still seemed like a small sample for a decent study. Hence the request out there for information from STers. This is simply a lighting vs growth study. Culture is certainly a huge factor to take into account, that is why I asked for watering frequency etc. There are a couple other experiments that will be performed later this year. These trials are going to be done when I get the plant material in July.

Tyler


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## Bjorn (Apr 7, 2016)

I believe it is wrong to try to get a number for growth rates of any paph. Unless it is a very rough number of course. 

Let me explain; one thing is that there is a vast variation in growth speeds within a flask, secondly, growth happens in "spurts" where a leaf can grow at a considerable speed. Some year ago, I measured it on a lowii (perhaps it was something else but it is reported here on ST) to be more than 1mm/day. This makes the leaves flip over, and when that growth spurt is finished, they stiffen, and raise and appears normal again. This happens to many (most?) of my multis including roths. 

This mode of growing seems not to be a consequence of fertiliser regime as that has changed over the years without much influence on the growth pattern. Now I am at very low fertiliser levels and growt still happens in spurts.


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## Stone (Apr 7, 2016)

gego said:


> > This rate is similar to a vanda growth. And vandas are heavily fed.
> > Low PPM of fert wont do it
> 
> 
> .



This so true. The concentration must be at the most the plant can tolerate to get the optimum growth speed. A friend on mine feeds at full strength at every watering. 1.2 dS/m!!! (that's hybrid Phalaenopsis territory) He has roths coming out of his ears. You also need good temps and high light levels and long days to go with this. S. California will give you these no problems.
I don't feed quite that much but I have been increasing it with visible increase of growth speed.
My first roth started out at about 2 years old 4 years ago and is getting close to flowering size now so I guess that's not too bad.


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## gego (Apr 7, 2016)

Stone said:


> This so true. The concentration must be at the most the plant can tolerate to get the optimum growth speed. A friend on mine feeds at full strength at every watering. 1.2 dS/m!!! (that's hybrid Phalaenopsis territory) He has roths coming out of his ears. You also need good temps and high light levels and long days to go with this. S. California will give you these no problems.
> I don't feed quite that much but I have been increasing it with visible increase of growth speed.
> My first roth started out at about 2 years old 4 years ago and is getting close to flowering size now so I guess that's not too bad.



Hey Mike, you just said it " so I guess that's not too bad". Reference is all we need to know whether the culture is right or the clone is a dwarf. Then one can strive to be better than the reference.


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## gego (Apr 7, 2016)

Bjorn said:


> I believe it is wrong to try to get a number for growth rates of any paph. Unless it is a very rough number of course.
> 
> Let me explain; one thing is that there is a vast variation in growth speeds within a flask, secondly, growth happens in "spurts" where a leaf can grow at a considerable speed. Some year ago, I measured it on a lowii (perhaps it was something else but it is reported here on ST) to be more than 1mm/day. This makes the leaves flip over, and when that growth spurt is finished, they stiffen, and raise and appears normal again. This happens to many (most?) of my multis including roths.
> 
> This mode of growing seems not to be a consequence of fertiliser regime as that has changed over the years without much influence on the growth pattern. Now I am at very low fertiliser levels and growt still happens in spurts.



Nothing is wrong with information, it all depends on how you use it.
You just provided a growth spurt of 1mm/day. This is a peak growth and then the growth slows down and stop, while another new leaf is coming out.
You can get an average for this. It's good to have a reference for peak and average growth. If it takes 6 years from flask to flower, I don't want to wait until the sixth year to conclude oppps, I'm not doing right. If I have the info to know the result/s in a month or a week, that's all good.


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## gego (Apr 7, 2016)

tnyr5 said:


> Oh for the love of....
> 
> March 16th, 2016
> 
> ...


Very impressive, very good looking plant At least you have 1.5" of growth there in less than a month. 
Thank you for sharing. 

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## tnyr5 (Apr 23, 2016)

Mk, now that I have some actual data.
Roth 266 x j
~150-175 par under Iwasaki 400w 6500k halide
Watered 3-4 x a week, ferts 1-2x a week
83-85f day
68-70f night
humidity 60-75%
6.9cm growth in one month


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## Greenleaves42 (Apr 23, 2016)

Nice! What is your distance under your Mh lamp you got there? 150cm 1500mm?


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## jtrmd (Apr 28, 2016)

I find it depends on parents. My Rex x MM remake seedlings grew fast, but other crosses are slow.


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## cattmad (Apr 28, 2016)

I find in seedlings the growth rate varies considerably depending on the quality of the flask. Roth crosses from TON grow like weeds compared to almost any other vendor


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## tnyr5 (Apr 28, 2016)

Greenleaves42 said:


> Nice! What is your distance under your Mh lamp you got there? 150cm 1500mm?



I would say about 36in, but it's off to the side of the reflector's spread. 
I'd be curious to see how fast these grow in the hands of a master. I'm not even a good grower, and I can get close to 3mm a day at peak growth.


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## tnyr5 (Jun 18, 2016)

One more shot. I wanted to see what would happen if I "tried" a little bit. 
4/25/2016




And again on 5/25/2016




Almost 9.2cm in 30 days. Plant has gone from 27in to 36in across since I started posting pics in this thread. I suspect this is approaching the limit of what is possible for a bedroom grower. Maybe in HI or in a dedicated roth room, you could get more...


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## gego (Jun 18, 2016)

That is amazing. You really got the sweet spot for roth. 

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## Paphman910 (Jun 18, 2016)

tnyr5 said:


> One more shot. I wanted to see what would happen if I "tried" a little bit.
> 4/25/2016
> 
> 
> ...



It can even get bigger especially when it puts out multiple growths. Some of the growths can reach 42-48 inches in leafspan.


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## tnyr5 (Jun 18, 2016)

Oh, I know. I was referring to growth rate, not size.


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