# Could it be the true primulinum ???



## Roly0217 (Nov 7, 2009)

Hello everyone !!! It was brought up to my attention that I might have gotten a true primulinum from one of my purchases a couple of days ago. If it's true I'll sooo excited but I won't until I get some positive IDs. I read the thread about how wide and long the leaves should be and the small flower so I went ahead and took some pictures for reference. The width of the leaf is about 1 inch and the lenght is 6 inches. The flower itself is about 2 inches but I can't detect no perfume. I blame it on my cold. I might get somebody else to smell it. When would it be at it's most fragrant???


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## John M (Nov 7, 2009)

Roy, I know a big grower locally here that imported a huge shipment of primulinum from Holland a few years ago. It seems that the Dutch have given this species (and some other Cochlopetalum species and hybrids), a lot of attention because of the bright colour, ease of culture and long blooming period. So, it is entirely possible that a grower in your area has also imported a bunch of these primulinums and sold them to Home Depot. From what I've seen, the quality is very good! To be sure, you should send all your information and photos and one fresh cut flower to the Marie Selby Botanical Gardens Orchid Identification Centre. It's in Sarasota, Florida. Here's the website: http://www.selby.org/

There is a cost for the service (probably more than what you paid for the plant!); so, you should check with them ahead of sending your flower and info.


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## Lance Birk (Nov 7, 2009)

You will never know the answer to your question, sorry.

Unless a species plant is from a verified collection site it is impossible (read that as: IMPOSSIBLE) to ever know the truth.

Too many orchid growers and exporters are just too reckless these days of tissue culture labs and creative ideas.

You will never know the answer to your question, sorry.


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## John M (Nov 7, 2009)

So Lance, you're saying that the Marie Selby Botanical Gardens Orchid Identification Centre can't tell the difference between a species and a hybrid.....basically, the service they provide is a crock of s**t? Interesting...


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## Rick (Nov 7, 2009)

In the absence of completely scrupulous collection records or DNA analysis compared to a significant base population of equally well documented jungle collected stock, I would tend to agree with Lance.

Based STRICTLY on metrics (looks) you can never be sure if something has direct jungle ancestry.

I guess it depends on your goals for keeping the plant. If it's just for looks then I guess it doesn't make a difference what it is.

If your interest is conservation (with possibly breeding stock to supplement jungle populations) then it can be very important.

Competing against other awarded plants within the AOS structure? That cat is already out of the bag, and it's generally a lost cause at this point to campaign a taxonomically correct species against what's been hitting the judging centers for the last 50 years. In general the taxonomic type specimen of virtually any species paph is pretty pathetic compared to even an honest to god, line bred documented pure species plant these days.


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## Roth (Nov 7, 2009)

Rick said:


> In the absence of completely scrupulous collection records or DNA analysis compared to a significant base population of equally well documented jungle collected stock, I would tend to agree with Lance.



And so far DNA analysis is a major piece of garbage at present time, and highly unreliable. I have seen the original Chase research on Paphiopedilum relationship, it was complete garbage, with roth close to villosum, delenatii standing next to ciliolare... I still have a copy of that. After having submitted their paper to a couple of taxonomists, like magic, the published paper had sense, with roth close to sand, delenatii close to malipoense. For sure the results have been heavily tampered to make something that has a sense... So, to identify a species through DNA would be a bit more complicated to say the least...


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## cnycharles (Nov 7, 2009)

I guess the odds probably would be better for something to be a species if it looks a bit scruffy? and if it looks like a beauty pageant winner, it's a hybrid? (just providing for some sad humor) some plants just look more like species to me, and when they get 'improved' they lose character. maybe that loss of character is a real sign that it's been tampered with

on second thought I remember seeing a lot of primary hybrids that looked pretty scruff but they also didn't have a 'species' look to me... so I guess it really is impossible


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## Lance Birk (Nov 7, 2009)

Sanderianum is correct. Many, but not all species plants are actually collected and then exported as "nursery grown." I know this by direct knowledge from exporter's own verification. Sanderianum is right there, in the midst of the scene and he has seen for himself what occurs.

My statement is meant as a realistic fact: you cannot determine if a plant is a true species unless you have reliable data from the person who has collected, or who employs his trackers to do the collecting for him. 

Any plant in captivity, and essentially out of your direct vision and/or observation, cannot be proven to be a species, regardles of any form of testing in our current arsenal of testing devices. DNA analysis is essentially worthless in determining anything but a relationship and then it is up for interpretation, at best. Current investigation showing the minute differences in DNA between Man and chimpanzees, among other things, supports this conclusion. More to the point.... WHO has been chosen to declare THE single clone of a "species" plant to which all critera for DNA testing is compared, for that particular species?

No one has, as yet! 

DNA is a big hoax as far as I'm concerned (for orchid species) because, in the first place, we do not want to establish relationships, we want to declare separation and the differences between species. If a purpose of plant taxonomy were to obfuscate our understanding of the identities of the different kinds or types of plants found in nature, then I might agree that lumping together plants with similar characteristics is a good idea. However, it only makes good sense to separate and to clearly define our references in order to gain a more complete understanding of our studies, therefore, the placement of species into well defined, unmistakable groups must logically take precedence. 

Plants in habitat countries are often sib-selfed and/or crossed with similar-looking species to "improve" the plant's desirability and then sold as a particular species. 

My interests are with species plants. I want to understand the genetic diversity of a species. It is clearly a chance-taking endeavor trying to find a "true" species Paphiopedilum these days. Thank you CITES; thank you judging criteria; thank you modern creativity.

Oh well, .....


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## Rick (Nov 8, 2009)

Lance Birk said:


> DNA analysis is essentially worthless in determining anything but a relationship and then it is up for interpretation, at best. Current investigation showing the minute differences in DNA between Man and chimpanzees, among other things, supports this conclusion. More to the point.... WHO has been chosen to declare THE single clone of a "species" plant to which all critera for DNA testing is compared, for that particular species?
> 
> No one has, as yet!



Actually I went to a recent talk on orchid DNA that there have been significant attempts to sample diverse representatives of a species in a given local (all in Brazil and some European native species as far as I can tell), to provide loci that represent the inherent genetic variability of a population rather than a single clone.

But, yes, the dividing line between loci is just as arbitrary as it is for cladistics.

I know people freak on the differences between humans and other species, but DNA is also used to tell one human from another. It's just a matter of finding the right area of the gene for a given species. And that's just a matter of money to make it worth it for someone to find. Right now orchid people are just playing with it low $$, and its puppy poo compared to the business of putting people behind bars.

The technology and science is improving and getting cheaper by the day. Somebody may already have the answers and they're just waiting for the $ to make it worth their while to cough it up. I knew plenty of University profs who played this game for other areas of research. Using grants to fund general research, but ultimately waiting for a Monsanto type to fund the good stuff.


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## Roly0217 (Nov 8, 2009)

Ohhh wow !!!! I didn't know that this topic was going to be so heated. I just went by the description given by Sanderianum as far as plant size and leaf color. Mine is within that range about 2cm wide leaves and 15 cm long. The flower is one of the smallest paph flowers that I've seen ever and I'm just trying to detect a fragrance. This bloom just opened about 2 or 3 days ago so I was hoping that the fragrance would develop as the flower matured. The flower looks a lot like the one shown by Drorchid of his primulinum so it's pretty accurate. Either way; species or hybrid I will be keeping it. I think that it's a lovely flower on a sequetial Paph so I'll enjoy it for a while. I would never want a jungle collected species because that would mean that it's habitat it's being exploided and destroyed just to collect the plants so I'm happy with what I can get at reputable nurseries.


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## Rick (Nov 8, 2009)

I guess you can also re-ask the basic question of "what is a species".

Once the plant comes out a the jungle and into the greenhouse is it still a species since it can't interact with it's normal pollinators in its normal habitat?

What is the value of a true "species" plant in captivity when no attempt is made to propagate it. It might as well be a picture or a stamp/coin in a collection. Unfortunately, its not as easy to preserve it as a picture or stamp, so is it moral for us to covet species plants with out some effort made to increase their number and take pressure off of wild populations? Is a 90%, backcrossed, hybrid, species look alike actually a better choice of ownership from a moral perspective? 

Why should it be less valuable to the collector than a plant that looks 90% like it but has been documented as jungle collected.

I think its odd that inferiority was placed on a flower because it was bigger and brighter than the wild collected plant ("and obviously not the true species"). But these days you can't even give away Phrag bessaea that aren't the huge suckers that Terry Root pumped out a couple of years ago. I didn't hear anyone condemning them as hybrids either.


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## NYEric (Nov 8, 2009)

First of all is, there really an album primulinum?!. 2nd if you are comparing a DNA sample against something that is really not the plant describes years ago how do you know what the DNA samples really are!? 3rd- you really can't tell just by physical characteristics, look at thaianum, which has probably been in the USA for years just mis-identified as a bad niveum! Good Luck! 4th- of course you can give away besseaes-to me!


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## Rick (Nov 8, 2009)

Lance Birk said:


> Sanderianum is correct. Many, but not all species plants are actually collected and then exported as "nursery grown." I know this by direct knowledge from exporter's own verification. Sanderianum is right there, in the midst of the scene and he has seen for himself what occurs.



There are a ton of paph species seedlings produced in the US for the US market.

Shoot, just as a hobbyist sending seed to Troy Meyers I've seen a couple thousand seedlings of half a dozen paph species go to the orchid public (unless buyers are buying them just to kill them to keep them from diluting the market).

And I'm just a tiny drop in the bucket compared to real breeders like Orchids Limited, Orchid Inn, Fox Valley, Glenn Decker.......to name a few.

I'm sure the US and probably European market is very small compared to the Asian market that probably gets the bulk of the "nursery grown" plants you are talking about. But I just don't see a big market in the US for the species plants that I suspect you are seeing.


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## NYEric (Nov 8, 2009)

That's a good point. THe species demand is really limiited to collectors and orchid nuts like us!


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## Lance Birk (Nov 8, 2009)

The demand for species paphs in Europe and Japan would knock your socks off. Ever think of cut-flowers?

Expand your horizons, guys.


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## NYEric (Nov 8, 2009)

Lance Birk said:


> Ever think of cut-flowers?


Actually, I don't. What do they do w/ the plants after they cut the flowers!?


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## Rick (Nov 8, 2009)

Lance Birk said:


> The demand for species paphs in Europe and Japan would knock your socks off. Ever think of cut-flowers?
> 
> Expand your horizons, guys.



I thought the debate was based on the ability to determine the ID of a plant purchased in the US.

I'm sure the Asian market is huge and without scruples.

They suck up most of the ivory and rhino horn.

But there really is no pot plant market of species paphs in the US flooding the market with illicit species like hybrids. 

I spend plenty of time at Lowes and Home Depot and rarely even see paphs let alone species paphs. And since the premise is that no one ever breeds anything, then they would be dead end plants anyway.

We are getting two contradictory stories from you and Sanderianum that 1) all species paphs are jungle collected and transshipped as "artificial prop" from giant Asian nurseries or 2) All species paphs are hybrids from massive seed growing Asian nurseries.

But if Sanderianum's contention is correct that all blooming size species plants are pilfered jungle collected plants, then the odds should be good that the identification of the plant is authentic. But if his other contention is correct that all species plants are actually illicit seed grown hybrids, then the market should not be depleting the wild of species plants for the cut flower trade.

So I'm getting confused about the point of this thread.


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## Kavanaru (Nov 8, 2009)

NYEric said:


> Actually, I don't. What do they do w/ the plants after they cut the flowers!?



what do they do with the roses after they cut the flowers for sellingthem? 

well, you keep the plant and let them bloom again, and you have new cut flowers to sell.. .as simpel as that! 

a good cut flowers (of a "nice" Paphiopedilum hybrid - old bulldog hybrids!) can be up to 30-40€ in many flower shops in europe!


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## NYEric (Nov 8, 2009)

Is that 30-40 euros!!??!!  
Except for some dendrobiums you dfind in the green-grocers, we don't have that kind of orchid cut flower market here in NYC. You may see them in some fancy boutiques or hotels but not for the general public. I think the price of space here is prohibitive to keeping non-blooming plants around. That's exactly why/how I get a lot of NOID Phals and dendrobiums, after the blooms drop off people chuck the plants!


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## John M (Nov 8, 2009)

Lance Birk said:


> You will never know the answer to your question, sorry.
> 
> Unless a species plant is from a verified collection site it is impossible (read that as: IMPOSSIBLE) to ever know the truth.
> 
> ...



Getting back to the origins of this thread..... Lance; when I suggested the MSBGOIC, I was keeping in mind that this forum is populated by and predominately run for amateur hobbyists.....simple enthusiasts, not scientists. I was keeping the context of the question in mind when I posted my reply. 

Technically, I believe your comment above to be true; but, in the real world, the one we amateur enthusiasts live in, that would mean all plants that cannot be verifiably traced all the way back to the original collection from the wild, cannot be considered to be a species. So, all of our species Paphs in our collections shouldn't be labeled as such. I think that's just not practical or a useful possition to take, in the context of this forum. Yes, it's technically true; but, it's completely unworkable for the masses of all us non-purists.....not to mention the nurseries like Orchids Limited and Orchid Inn and Piping Rock, etc., who supply us with our "species" plants. 

In the interest of hopefully preventing yet another hybrid plant being "identified" and given the status of species, based on little more than a "best guess", by an amateur hobbyist and his Internet friends, I just wanted to give Roy a better alternative to coming up with a correct, probable identification. 

I recognise that coming up with an identity for his plant is a probability thing....not 100% accurate; but, having his plant identified as "primulinum", or, a "primulinum hybrid" by someone far knowledgeable than any of us, has got to be better and more desireable than him deciding by himself.


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## Roth (Nov 8, 2009)

Rick said:


> Im sure the Asian market is huge and without scruples.



The orchid market in general. From where do you think those Taiwanese or Malaysian paph volonteanum, hookerae, stonei, etc... brought by the sellers are coming from? Jungle, for the volonteanum, even extremely fresh wild collected...



> But there really is no pot plant market of species paphs in the US flooding the market with illicit species like hybrids.



That's true, China and Hong Kong are two of the largest market for jungle paphs used as pot plant, then Vietnam, Thailand...

In Europe, some people attempted to do the same with jungle callosum from Laos, they are so cheap, cheaper than even a seedling in flask... it's however marginal.




> We are getting two contradictory stories from you and Sanderianum that 1) all species paphs are jungle collected and transshipped as "artificial prop" from giant Asian nurseries or 2) All species paphs are hybrids from massive seed growing Asian nurseries.



No, I and Lance never said that. I say that, if you get a blooming size volonteanum, sangii, sugiyamanum, hookerae, mastersianum, micranthum kwangsee, micranthum, armeniacum, malipoense, emersonii, and quite a lot more species, unless they have a proven pedigree, they are jungle collected plants. Same for parishii, anitum, aductum, randsii, most of the haynaldianum, ciliolare... The list is long.

On the other side, there are many 'seedlings' of paphs species that are fake, that is another fact. Places like Orchid Inn or Orchids Ltd are reliable, but Taiwan, Taiwan... and Europe even, are not safe for someone who wants to get the real deal, except a couple nurseries, and even so...



> But if Sanderianum's contention is correct that all blooming size species plants are pilfered jungle collected plants, then the odds should be good that the identification of the plant is authentic. But if his other contention is correct that all species plants are actually illicit seed grown hybrids, then the market should not be depleting the wild of species plants for the cut flower trade.



I said that there are about 30-40 paph species that are nearly never offered from seed, IF they are really the species they are supposed to be and IF they are blooming size, that's a fact...

Roth, sukhakhulii, etc... of course are available from seed, but stuff like ciliolare or anitum, wow... Same for volonteanum and this kind of plant, and even micranthum and armeniacum, generic offered plants - not the AM sibs or that kind of stuff, of course, but the plants from the people who just sell 'p.micranthum blooming size'...

Nearly all the genuine blooming size plants of those species are jungle collected...

Now, regarding Lance book:

- His 'pretty good mix' with the sand and sheet moss is surprisingly pretty good to excellent to say the least, with specifically the sand and the sheet moss...
- We have to remember that on an overall, many plants looked healthier 20-30 years ago than now in commercial nurseries, on an average...
- Lance has been bashed for the story of this 'rust' that wiped out his collection. I can testify that such things indeed do happen. Many species are coming from the wild straight to US, Europe, and worldwide, then they are resold to hobbyists who have not enough access to proper fungicides and bactericides. I have seen some colletotrichium, xanthomonas, and a wide range of weird stuff. Fusarium is extremely common today, where it was a great rarity on paphs 30 years ago. An extremely famous commercial nursery had to dump benches and benches of award quality paphiopedilum and seedlings in central California after they got the new highly infective strain of phytophthora. Lance rust, maybe I got it some years ago, but with the new fungicides it has been a piece of cake to solve that problem...

The main problem, there are still too many imports from the wild, and they bring a lot of diseases in cultivation. Some can be cured, some cannot. Second, some large nurseries in Asia have poor fungicides and antibiotic practices, resulting in resistant strains of many diseases.

About jungle plants, think about many plants from the south american sellers, many plants from Asia, even sold in the USA - of course Orchid Limited is selling all art propagated species and hybrids, but many nurseries are not. Look at those jungle collected den. trantuanii:







And there are many examples here and there. Rick, as for bulbo mandibulare, there is only 1 collector/supplier in Sabah, who sells to many nurseries in Peninsular Malaysia. From there, they go to 3 nurseries in the USA. But they are jungle collected... Bulbo reticulatum, phal doweriensis blooming size, all that kind of things are jungle collected.

Now, each time there is a plant like that that enters a hobbyist collection, there is a huge risk of diseases... Paphs from Ambon as an example have a very hard to eradicate brevipalpus. mastersianum, mohrianum... I even think that some brevipalpus strains originated from Indonesia...


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## slippertalker (Nov 9, 2009)

John M said:


> So Lance, you're saying that the Marie Selby Botanical Gardens Orchid Identification Centre can't tell the difference between a species and a hybrid.....basically, the service they provide is a crock of s**t? Interesting...



Selby isn't in the identification business these days............so the answer is no they can't.


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## Roth (Nov 9, 2009)

John M said:


> So Lance, you're saying that the Marie Selby Botanical Gardens Orchid Identification Centre can't tell the difference between a species and a hybrid.....basically, the service they provide is a crock of s**t? Interesting...



Actually, they cannot make the difference between a species and an hybrid, and no taxonomist can do that for most tricky stuff...

Sometimes they are cheated very easily... The Kunming Botanical Garden made a program to try to breed primary hybrids for pot-plant. One of their hybrids - that has been offered to me in quantity, multiple growths, was dianthum x villosum. They have over 400 huge clumps of that one...

Olaf Gruss described Paph. xPetchleungianum based on one of those pot-plant. 

Paph. dexlerianum is an hybrid as well, there are many cases like that. The taxonomists have no experience of the trade, and what is sold in the trade, so they can identify a species if it is a species, but in many cases cannot identify that a plant is a hybrid if the submitted plant is a scam...


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## NYEric (Nov 9, 2009)

You're hired!


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## WolfDog1 (C. Williams) (Nov 12, 2009)

WOW


Craig


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## SlipperKing (Nov 12, 2009)

Wow what a lot of rambling over primulinum or not!oke:


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## Kavanaru (Nov 13, 2009)

SlipperKing said:


> Wow what a lot of rambling over primulinum or not!oke:



to end up as "A primulinum is a primulinum is a primulinum is a primulinum..." oke:

P.S.- I understand the discussion here, but at the very end, we end up calling Paph primulinum what is sold as Paph primulinum and even awarded as primulinum, as nobody will ever change the labels of their primulinum even knowing they are not 100% primulinum and so on... so, my Paph primulinum 'Ching Hua #3' x 'Ching Hua #5' will stay as primulinum (same as it cousins 'CH #1 x CH #2' and any other CH # combinations), the same way it stay as primulinum at the different vendors selling it, and same way as all other "not true" primulinum stay labelled the same way...

P.S.- Just in case: the text above has a lot irony in it! ok?


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## Hakone (Nov 14, 2009)

What is that?


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## Pete (Nov 15, 2009)

theres a lot of variation with color, size, form of ALL species. but i myself know when a roth is a roth and a tigrinum is a tigrinum. it might sound stupid but you can tell some of the more distinct ones apart. cochlopetalum section might be more difficult. for example. there has been about a billion pictures articles and publications about rothschildianum. a generation for a roth is like 7 years. in order for a roth to not actually be a roth and have something else in it it would have to be crossed (i.e. to phillippinense) then back to the parent at least once, probly more times. and even then you would still be able to tell it wasnt a roth. oh and by the way thats like 20+ years of breeding..


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