# s/h growers another repotting question



## Cinderella (Jan 29, 2007)

I was wondering: of the s/h growers out there, how many of you wait for new root growth before transferring to s/h and how many of you just go ahead and move it over?

Also if you could note if you grow only slippers or you grow other genus too.


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## Candace (Jan 29, 2007)

*s/h*

Cinderella, have you visited and read all the info. at www.firstrays.com? That's one of the most important "rules" of s/h....


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## Cinderella (Jan 29, 2007)

I know it is recommended but it seems slippers and some phals are less picky about it so I wondered what everybody else does. 

Also I find it easy to see new root development with phals, catts and some other genus but a little tougher with slippers. Maybe that is just me?


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## Candace (Jan 29, 2007)

*s/h*

Most people who don't have success with s/h transfer plants over when not in active growth. It's recommended to do so for a reason. Many to most of the roots that haven't acclimated to s/h die and rot. This is normal. If the plant isn't in active growth, that means no roots and eventual decline and death. Why even risk it?? I have over a thousand plants in s/h, all genera.


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## Heather (Jan 29, 2007)

I only have Paphs and Phrags. The only ones that struggled were the ones with no active root growth when I moved them. I would wait.


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## Cinderella (Jan 29, 2007)

What if you get a bareroot plant? I just go ahead and put it in s/h.


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## Candace (Jan 29, 2007)

*s/h*

I wouldn't order bareroot plants unless it were Spring/warmer weather and they'd be in active growth. Throwing bareroot, inactive plants in s/h is asking for trouble. Again, why risk it.


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## Cinderella (Jan 29, 2007)

OK, but what if you trade with someone or someone gifts you with a new plant? Those usually come bareroot. What would you do? Also when a grower grows in some kind of medium that you cannot. e.g. Norman's (I don't order from them anymore, but just for example) 6 feet of sphag. I can't grow in that here.


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## smartie2000 (Jan 29, 2007)

I have gotten plants bare root in the middle of Canada's winter...It is possible, and it was a paph that was in bud.


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## gonewild (Jan 29, 2007)

Cinderella said:


> OK, but what if you trade with someone or someone gifts you with a new plant? Those usually come bareroot. What would you do? Also when a grower grows in some kind of medium that you cannot. e.g. Norman's (I don't order from them anymore, but just for example) 6 feet of sphag. I can't grow in that here.



Under these conditions I would just pot them up in the s/h. Better to have them in a media you can grow in. When you do pot them into s/h try to keep the old roots above the waterline, which will help the old roots adjust.

I've moved plants into s/h from old normal mix that had poor roots and they grow just fine. Actually I just move plants into s/h whenever I feel like it regardless of whether they have active roots or not. Just take some extra care with watering until new roots begin to grow. 

Who made up the rules anyway? :evil:


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## Candace (Jan 29, 2007)

"I have gotten plants bare root in the middle of Canada's winter...It is possible, and it was a paph that was in bud."

That means it was in active growth. I've got many paphs in bud in the winter. 


"I've moved plants into s/h from old normal mix that had poor roots and they grow just fine. Actually I just move plants into s/h whenever I feel like it regardless of whether they have active roots or not. Just take some extra care with watering until new roots begin to grow.

Who made up the rules anyway?"

Basically, people who want to be able to grow orchids better, and easier than in organic media. I'm not saying it can't be done, but if you have to "take special care" and baby it, then the benefits of growing in s/h are thrown out the door.


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## Cinderella (Jan 29, 2007)

Maybe it also depends on how good your conditions are too, Lance. My conditions are not that stellar so I can't afford to cut too many corners.


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## gonewild (Jan 29, 2007)

I guess my point is that there should be no strict rules for s/h. There are guidelines that should be altered to fit ones growing conditions. I don't see how repotting a plant into s/h as opposed to normal media will cause the roots to rot unless the plant is suddenly kept to wet. There are no miracle mixes or methods that allow us to ignore the plants needs. I think s/h is a good method to use and the care a plant requires will be more forgiving than with organic mixes.

The reason roots rot when moved into s/h would have to be because they suddenly are kept to wet compared to what they were adjusted to. If your s/h air water ratio is correct the roots should not rot, but rather slowly die out as new roots grow in. If you have a plant that is bare root, potting into s/h and watering it sparingly should be no different that potting back into an organic mix which should be watered carefully also.

Once the plant is bare rooted it is likely better to pot it into the s/h media you want in in permanently regardless of what mix it came out of.


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## Candace (Jan 29, 2007)

S/h inherently has a wetter gradient than organic mixes. Hence the name semi-hydro. This means it will usually be wetter than the original plants previous medium. 


"Once the plant is bare rooted it is likely better to pot it into the s/h media you want in in permanently regardless of what mix it came out of."

I agree with this one statement of yours. But, if it's not in active growth I wouldn't grow it using the true s/h techinique. I would simply put it in leca and water sparingly and make sure to empty out the resevoir. Upon seeing new active growth, I'd up the watering and then carry on as usual, keeping the usual one inch. plus resevoir of water filled.


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## gonewild (Jan 29, 2007)

Candace said:


> S/h inherently has a wetter gradient than organic mixes. Hence the name semi-hydro. This means it will usually be wetter than the original plants previous medium.



I'm not sure it is actually wetter than mixes containing sphag, chc or even pumice. It may be wetter than fresh bark but I think broken down bark will even have a "wetter' effect on the roots. I assume when we are referring to s/h we are talking about media such as leca which has a tremendous air space compared to organic mixes. This extra air space should neutralize what appears to be a wetter root environment. Of course the area of the water reservoir is wetter.  

And I would suggest it is better to replant most plants just before they begin active growth, regardless of the media.


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## ScottMcC (Jan 30, 2007)

something I've done with plants that weren't actively growing when I got them is just pot them in a normal pot in primeagra. They require watering every 1-2 days that way, but stay a lot dryer than s/h. I figure this is a transition phase, subject to conversion to s/h later, once they're growing actively.

But I've moved a few plants from bark to s/h when they weren't growing actively. They struggled a little, but they didn't die. I'm kinda with Lance--the rules aren't exactly set in stone, and while they exist for a reason, you shouldn't get too dogmatic about them.


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## Candace (Jan 30, 2007)

I don't know how Ray deals with you people:>


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## Grandma M (Jan 30, 2007)

I usually pot them up whenever it is convenient for me. I have not had a problem doing that. All of my slippers are in S/H and they love it, especially the phrags. A few other orchids are also in S/H and doing well.

EXCEPT.....I just paid $100.00 for a phrag and $39.00 to have it sent by air because of the cold. I may wait to put this into S/H until it adjusts to it's new home. Am I being a chicken????  

Grandma


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## gonewild (Jan 30, 2007)

Grandma M said:


> I usually pot them up whenever it is convenient for me. I have not had a problem doing that. All of my slippers are in S/H and they love it, especially the phrags. A few other orchids are also in S/H and doing well.
> 
> EXCEPT.....I just paid $100.00 for a phrag and $39.00 to have it sent by air because of the cold. I may wait to put this into S/H until it adjusts to it's new home. Am I being a chicken????
> 
> Grandma



Yes oke:


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## NYEric (Jan 30, 2007)

Candace said:


> S/h inherently has a wetter gradient than organic mixes. Hence the name semi-hydro. This means it will usually be wetter than the original plants previous medium.



I hate to be the Devil's advocate :evil: but... My organic mixes are hydro and therefore wetter than S/H media.


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## Candace (Jan 30, 2007)

You all are going to do what ever you want, regardless of what I advise. Carry on and good luck to your plants.

EDIT "My organic mixes are hydro and therefore wetter than S/H media"
There are very few commercial growers that grow orchids hydroponically in organic medium and have large resale operations where they sell said plants at shows etc. Name one, please.


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## NYEric (Jan 30, 2007)

Grandma M said:


> EXCEPT.....I just paid $100.00 for a phrag and $39.00 to have it sent by air because of the cold. Grandma


OK, I'll bite, what did you get and from where?


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## gonewild (Jan 30, 2007)

Candace said:


> You all are going to do what ever you want, regardless of what I advise. Carry on and good luck to your plants.



Of course we are all going to do what we want, but we certainly appreciate what you advise. I especially appreciate hearing about your growing experiences with s/h but would like to hear reasons for what you advise. For instance, why you feel s/h is wetter than organic media. Maybe in reality it is?


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## Inverness (Jan 30, 2007)

I have about 300 plants in S/H using Prime-Agra (new & old type) under HID lighting. I will agree waiting until new growth is taking place is best; however, if circumstances seem to require it, I'll repot anytime, generally with good results. I have lost some plants, but that goes with the cultivation of any living thing.

Ken Brewer


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## Candace (Jan 30, 2007)

Grandma, your new phrag should be in active growth right now. I know mine are! I've got like 30 of them in bloom or bud and throwing up growths like crazy. I don't think you should worry about switching it over to s/h. Do it!


Ken, I'm interested in your observation of the new prime agra, as I haven't use it yet. As for is it wetter than regular medium, a look at Ray's testing of wicking capabilities will show you how much water the medium retains. With organic mixes I don't dispute some can hold a lot of water, but the medium is allowed to dry out between waterings(optimally) whereas leca sits in water 24/7 soaking and wicking up moisture. Ideally, it's supposed to never dry out.

I've also switched some plants over when I shouldn't have(not in active growth) and most lived, but had to be babied. What works for others, great! But I've got over a thousand plants and I don't have the time or willingness to babysit and hold me breath over a few plants. That said, certain plants can be moved over to s/h in less than optimal conditions easier than others. Paphs and phrags can be moved over seemingly at any time and some resent it some don't, whereas cattleyas, vandaceous and some others resent it badly when not in active growth. It really depends on the plant, growing conditions and time of year. That's why the "rule" isn't really a rule, but a suggestion.


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## Inverness (Jan 30, 2007)

Candace, - Late summer early fall I potted asssorted phrags, miltonias, and several others into the new PrimeAgra. All appear to be doing well. Lot's of new roots forming. It does stay more moist (at least for me), but that is what I was looking for. I will agree, catts seem to be the most sensitive of the genera I've worked with regarding an optimum repotting time. My culture in general is everything gets watered every 4-6 days, year round, feeding at every watering (MSU - 125 ppm N). Most things adapt and prosper, but some don't and end up as compost. For me, S/H and PrimeAgra have enabled better growth and flowering than anything I've tried before and I've been growing 40+ years. An aditional comment, I've tried some other types of expanded shale/clay media; for my conditions, PrimeAgra is superior.

Ken Brewer


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## gonewild (Jan 30, 2007)

Candace said:


> EDIT "My organic mixes are hydro and therefore wetter than S/H media"
> There are very few commercial growers that grow orchids hydroponically in organic medium and have large resale operations where they sell said plants at shows etc. Name one, please.



I doubt there are any large resale orchid growers who grow hydroponically (except for perhaps the Hawaiian lava growers). Growing plants hydroponically or s/h does not lend itself well to resale for a number of reasons. But the fact that resale growers don't grow by either of these two methods is not a reflection that the methods are not great for growing. Resale growers must be concerned with after care and shipping. Not to mention the extremely high per pot cost of PrimeAgra compared to bark.


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## gonewild (Jan 30, 2007)

Inverness said:


> An aditional comment, I've tried some other types of expanded shale/clay media; for my conditions, PrimeAgra is superior.
> 
> Ken Brewer



Can you elaborate why PrimeAgra is superior?


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## Grandma M (Jan 30, 2007)

Eric
It's Stairway to Heaven, in bud, from Orchids Limited. It should be here tomorrow.

Candice
Wow!! 30 in bloom at the same time sounds like a touch of heaven.

I guess I'm just a bit hesitant because of having it shipped in this weather. I'm afraid the shock of the cold may set it back a bit. I may wait about a week or two. I talked to Jason from OL about putting it into S/H and he thought it would do well to transplant now. It is about 3 weeks from opening.
All of my phrags and paphs are in S/H. I also have many in bloom now and I would like to tell them to space out their blooming a bit so I can enjoy them over a longer period of time. It depends on the variety, but some of them don't last as long as others.

I'll post a photo of my phrag. sendenii var. Roseum 'Bern Crest' which has just started to flower. I will wait until a couple more flowers open before I take another photo. 

Grandma


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## Inverness (Jan 30, 2007)

Lance - Water uptake seems to be very consistant and uniform, I think the wicking is better too. With some others I've tried, different batches seemed to take up and hold water differently (batch to batch of the same product). As a result, I'd have dry and wet pots on the same bench; and for the way I water, this doesn't work. I'm not saying everything is of perfectly equal moisture content when using PrimeAgra, but there is far less varience.

Ken Brewer


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## gonewild (Jan 30, 2007)

Inverness said:


> Lance - Water uptake seems to be very consistant and uniform, I think the wicking is better too. With some others I've tried, different batches seemed to take up and hold water differently (batch to batch of the same product). As a result, I'd have dry and wet pots on the same bench; and for the way I water, this doesn't work. I'm not saying everything is of perfectly equal moisture content when using PrimeAgra, but there is far less varience.
> 
> Ken Brewer



Thanks, that is good to know how it compared. I have all my seedlings in PrimeAgra (old style). I like it a lot. 

I recently got a box of the new style in the fine grade and I don't like it's physical shape. The pebbles are round now and don't lock together. Because I'm planting seedlings into it directly out of flask the lack of stability is a concern. I was going to plant some new kovachii seedlings into it but now I'm not sure about it. I experimented and learned how to grow in the old style and now the difference Maybe I'll mix the old coarse and new style fine together. 

Have you noticed any problems with minerals or salts in the new style?


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## Candace (Jan 30, 2007)

Ken and Lance, I'm interested in hearing more about your experiences with the new stuff. I've only got the old primeagra and have been recycling it after cleaning, of course. About 50% of my plants are in hydroton or aliflor. Hydroton is available locally for me. The hydroton doesn't wick as well as the primeagra, which is fine for my catts. But, I prefer the primeagra as well, and typically use it for my more expensive plants and paphs. I agree it's the superior product out of the three for s/h. It wicks up the water and does stay much wetter throughout the pot than the hydroton.

I guess this thread has hit a hot button of mine. I read post after post on different forums of people trying s/h then complaining their plants died or are severely set back. After question and answer sessions come to find out they switched to s/h when the plant wasn't active. Then they chime in on other threads that s/h doesn't work...sort of maddening really.


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## Inverness (Jan 30, 2007)

Candace - I can only comment on my direct experiences, but I've noticed in other threads some folks mix it with other materials, some use something other than PrimeAgra, some use standard clay or plastic pots and many other variations. While everyone is free to do as they wish, S/H is a "system" created by Ray Barkalow, First Rays Orchids. There is lot's of valuable info about this process at his website. This is not a paid plug, just fact!

As far as salts or other issues with the new product, I haven't had any; in fact, I compoted several phrag and phal flasks into the new material (fine grade) and have been happy with the results.

Ken Brewer


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## Cinderella (Jan 30, 2007)

I guess I opened a can of worms with this thread. Anyway, s/h has been berry berry good to me. Actually was very good for me as a beginner because I was overwatering a whole lot. It is great for new growers before you can really figure out how frequently to water based on your conditions. 

Altho recently a couple of my oncids and my Phal Mini Mark showed some decline and when I unpotted them the roots were rotten (I mean the new roots which grew in s/h). These plants were repotted at the right time so I don't know what happened there. One theory is that they got too cold? 

The Phal Mini Mark has dimped.


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## Candace (Jan 30, 2007)

Lance said, "I doubt there are any large resale orchid growers who grow hydroponically (except for perhaps the Hawaiian lava growers). Growing plants hydroponically or s/h does not lend itself well to resale for a number of reasons. But the fact that resale growers don't grow by either of these two methods is not a reflection that the methods are not great for growing. Resale growers must be concerned with after care and shipping. Not to mention the extremely high per pot cost of PrimeAgra compared to bark."


You're exactly right, but what I meant by that comment was that someone growing hydroponically in inert medium in a NY apartment is not typical. And doesn't negate my argument about the orchids having to acclimate to a wetter environment. That's not the typical grower. I don't think s/h will ever be commercially successful. One large reason, the increase in shipping plants to customers. And that's one of the main reasons why I don't think the s/h philosopy of growing will ever be more popular than growing in organic medium. You're right about there being many reasons. Besides the cost of medium that you mentioned, the increase in cost of fertilizer comes to mind. Some older growers don't like the weight issue at all. Those with arthritic hands have a lot of problems lifting the pots. And many people complain my plants "pee" on them, when they lift them up. :>
__________________


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## NYEric (Jan 31, 2007)

Grandma M said:


> Eric
> It's Stairway to Heaven, in bud, from Orchids Limited. It should be here tomorrow.


Argh! Now I have to go look up the cross.


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## gonewild (Jan 31, 2007)

NYEric said:


> Argh! Now I have to go look up the cross.



wallisii x warscewiczianum


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## NYEric (Feb 2, 2007)

Ya, thanx I looked it up. It's a little green for me.


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## Carol (Feb 7, 2007)

*S/H Growing*

I have to say that I quite enjoy this thread. I have been growing in s/h since Ray came to our society(OSWP)in the fall of 2005 for a talk. I dove right in with my phrags(7) and paphs(50) and would say 99% are doing fantastic. I had problems with approximately 3-4 and might have had the same problems growing in bark or coconut. Some of the phrags are watered with a lower nutrient strength due to burning of leaf tips. Four of the seven are in bloom now, so they are happy. There is also a few oncidium types and miltoniopsis potted up in s/h and are growing much better than in conventional mixes. By the way, OSWP is holding their spring show "Spring into Orchids" on March 24,25 if any of you are in the Pittsburgh, PA area. Great show, but then I am co-chair this year. Looking for info go to oswp.org.

Carol


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## IdahoOrchid (Feb 10, 2007)

Cinderella said:


> I guess I opened a can of worms with this thread.



No, you did not, not by any means. It was a little touch and go there for a while, but recovered very nicely.


My question is what about the transition the other way: s/h to organic. Has anyone had occation or tried to do it? I ask this because of the periodic, and I know this is crazy but it does happen, desire to sell or trade a plant. I have purchased some compots with the intention of using them to sell or as trade bait. Should I leave them in organic or go s/h and transition them back to organic prior to sending off?


OK, I have two questions. What is a typical startup cost? OK, I am going to Ray's site right now before I get lynched......


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## gonewild (Feb 10, 2007)

IdahoOrchid said:


> Should I leave them in organic or go s/h and transition them back to organic prior to sending off?



What would your reason be for planting them back into organic prior to sending them off rather than sending them in leca media?


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## IdahoOrchid (Feb 10, 2007)

gonewild said:


> What would your reason be for planting them back into organic prior to sending them off rather than sending them in leca media?



What if the person that was receiving the plant did not want to do s/h or pay for the increased shipping/materials costs?


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## gonewild (Feb 10, 2007)

IdahoOrchid said:


> What if the person that was receiving the plant did not want to do s/h or pay for the increased shipping/materials costs?



Then I would remove the plant from s/h and wrap or temporarily pot the plant with sphag. Since the plant would be freshly potted into a new mix it would be best to let the buyer plant it with his own mix. Don't send a freshly repotted plant letting the receiver believe it is an established plant.

But I guess your question is how well plants transplant from s/h back into an organic mix. I don't think you should encounter any abnormal problems assuming the plant has healthy roots.


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## Heather (Feb 10, 2007)

I generally tend to offer to ship potted for people who I know grow in S/H. Otherwise, I unpot and ship with the roots wrapped in shredded wax paper in a plastic bag. 

Now that the PA mix has changed, if I can save the mix to re-use, I will.


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## NYEric (Feb 11, 2007)

Heather said:


> I generally tend to offer to ship potted for people who I know grow in S/H. Otherwise, I unpot and ship with the roots wrapped in shredded wax paper in a plastic bag.


Argh! I'm still trying to get all of that shredded stuff out of the first stuff you sent me! oke:


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## esungirl (Feb 13, 2007)

I am curious then, since you can't see the new roots on most slippers, do you determine active grow by seeing a new leaf emerge? It seems like they are always in growth. I did try it with a besseae cross, tthat I could see the new roots on but it hasn't worked out so well, however, my besseae sp. transplanted very well into it and I have seen no sulk in the plant. Infact a stunted new, baby bud of a growth that I had given up on, is now actively growing. Which means I got 4 new growths form the plant this year! Now if it continues to actually bloom this year...well that would take the cake!

So, when should I replant my paph seedling into S/H, because I really do like the system? Considering it gets so hot here in the summer, I would be able to see when the plant actually needs to be watered, because the humidity can vary according to our off-shore and on-shore flow (wind).


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## gonewild (Feb 13, 2007)

esungirl said:


> So, when should I replant my paph seedling into S/H, because I really do like the system? Considering it gets so hot here in the summer, I would be able to see when the plant actually needs to be watered, because the humidity can vary according to our off-shore and on-shore flow (wind).



What growing conditions do you have? In a greenhouse, on a windowsill, under artificial lights? That might effect your decision when to repot. Repotting just before a plant begins to grow is a good time and knowing your growing conditions will help you second guess when your plant might start a growth push.


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