# Please Help with Phrag Lower Leaves Dying



## Jenny St. Michel (Jan 27, 2020)

Hello Everyone, 
I have 3 Phrags and 2 of them are doing great but my Nichole Tower is having some problems. Below are the details. 
Problem: I’ve lost 2 lower leaves and a third is on its way. The symptoms start as yellowing intervenal clorosis. Green veins yellowing leaf, followed by leaf tips that brown until it reaches the stem. The brown leaf tips are dry with a tinge of red. Pics attached. The stem also has purpling. The plant is in flower. There has been 4 flowers. At the moment there is one flower and one bud. All other leaves look good. And roots are good. I can see new root tips growing inside pot. I’m getting nervous cause I’m gonna run out of leaves if this keeps up. I wonder if I should cut the spike??? Advice PLEASE!!! 
Growing details: acquired about 3.5 months ago. 
Grown indoors in Maine under new 2-T5 HO florescent bulbs. 30ish% humidity. Day temp about 70f night temps 65f. 
Grown in mix of lava rock, Med bark,small amount of pro-mix topped dresses with LECA beads. Pour through test was high 6ph. Water daily. I started using Rays regimen about 3 weeks ago. Use k-lite at 1/8 tsp every other watering. Symptoms started before switching to K-lite. I also use the Kelpmax and Inocucor. Also have done two feedings of Epsom salts. Thinking this was a magnesium deficiency. A few days ago I switched to leaving phrag in shallow saucer of water. Sorry for the long message!!!


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## Jenny St. Michel (Jan 27, 2020)

This is a photo 3 days after cutting back the brown tip. It spreads very quickly.


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## Ray (Jan 27, 2020)

In my S/H-phrag experience, such loss is often related to high solids content of the applied solutions. Tell us what you can about your water supply and fertilizer - formula, concentration used and frequency of application.

It also appears to be potted a bit deeply. Pull it up so the base of the plant is right at the top of the LECA.


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## Jenny St. Michel (Jan 27, 2020)

That makes sense. To be honest over the last week I fed at a higher concentrate thinking it may be a magnesium deficiency. But have not seen any improvement. And I was wondering about the depth as well. I potted deeper cause it felt a little wiggly. But I will take some LECA off. Sometimes I think I get paranoid and make too many changes at once. Do you think I should cut the spike? I don’t want to but would if it may help....


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## Ray (Jan 27, 2020)

While I wait for a wobbly plant to grow enough roots to "sit tight" (KelpMax _really_ helps), I use wooden skewers to stabilize it. Too much motion means no root growth.

A change in feeding "over the last week" isn't likely to do much unless it was a really extreme change. Back to my original request: Tell us what you can about your water supply and fertilizer - formula, normal concentration used and frequency of application, and maybe we can offer more insight.

Personally, I'd leave the spike as-is.


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## Jenny St. Michel (Jan 27, 2020)

So sorry I forgot to answer that. I was using repot me’s MSU formula but about 3 weeks ago I switched to your regimen. I use well water. Water test pic attached. I don’t think I got the right kind of test. When I check my ppm with meter it’s consistently 65ppm and ph is around 8. For last 3 weeks I have been been feeding 3 to 4 time per week at 1/8th TSP K-Lite. But also added some cal-mag a few times and did two doses of 1TSP Epsom Salts. And add about 10 to 13 drops phosphoric acid to drop the ph to mid 6ph. This is per gallon. When I first got the Kelpmax and Inocucor I dosed them with that as well. Now I’m using Inocucor once a week at 3tbsp per gallon. But this problem started a couple months ago. The fertilizer I was using had higher concentrations. I will attach a pic of label. After I lost my last leaf I thought the problem was cured but then it started again about a week or so ago. About 2 weeks ago this leaf looked healthy. My other 2 Phrags ( richteri and pearcei) look great and I do the same thing to them. For awhile I was using distilled water but got lazy and stopped. I didn’t think my water was that bad.....


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## monocotman (Jan 27, 2020)

Whatever the thoughts about feed and water, I’d be tempted to cut off the spike. There are not many leaves to support a good size spike like that,
David


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## Ray (Jan 27, 2020)

Yeah, that's a drinking water analysis, not an irrigation water one, but your water is relatively pure. I'd drop the cal-mag, as K-Lite provides both and your water is also supplying a moderate amount of both of them. Is the excess Ca doing that? I doubt it, but cannot say for sure. I think your regimen is pretty good, although you're wasting money applying Inocucor more than once a week.

If you just add K-LIte to the water, what does your pH do? Even if it's not exactly where you'd like it, it may not be a problem, as the plant and the microbes in the pot can affect the pH. Consider running the "pour through" test:

Water your plants thoroughly, flooding the pot and letting it drain.
30 minutes later, trickle about a shot-glass-full (~50ml) of pure (distilled or RO) over the pot surface and collect the drainage - that is the sample to check pH.
I have heard of folks having issues with phosphoric acid as a pH adjuster. If the pour-through test supports the need for adjustment, consider an organic acid like citric, instead (often available as "sour salt" in grocery stores that cater to eastern European chefs - my Ukrainian grandmother used it in her borscht).

One more question: How recently was that moved to S/H? The pot looks fairly "algaefied", so I assumed it had been a while...


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## Ray (Jan 27, 2020)

Just a general comment: I could be WAY off base about this, but I am starting to think that orchids are as much, or more sensitive to high EC than to high TDS, _per se_. Phrags, many of which are from bogs with a lot of very pure water, might be more so.

The amount of K-Lite you're using will add about 0.15mS to the water. Adding cal-mag will increase it further, and if you're adding an acid, which is highly ionizable, that might get much higher.

Someone with real knowledge in this area needs to speak up.


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## Jenny St. Michel (Jan 28, 2020)

Good Morning. So I just wanted to show a pic of how quickly the leaf tip is dying. This makes me wonder if perhaps this is a bacterial infection or leaf spotting fungus instead of a nutrient deficiency. Wouldn’t a nutrient deficiency progress much more slowly? Again I am very new to orchids so any advice is welcome. The appearance seems to match the description in one of St.Augustines Sue Bottom articles.https://staugorchidsociety.org/PDF/OrchidPestsandDiseasesbySueBottom.pdf
In this photo you can see where I marked the leaf yesterday morning. It’s has progressed past the line since then....


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## Jenny St. Michel (Jan 28, 2020)

Ray said:


> Yeah, that's a drinking water analysis, not an irrigation water one, but your water is relatively pure. I'd drop the cal-mag, as K-Lite provides both and your water is also supplying a moderate amount of both of them. Is the excess Ca doing that? I doubt it, but cannot say for sure. I think your regimen is pretty good, although you're wasting money applying Inocucor more than once a week.
> 
> If you just add K-LIte to the water, what does your pH do? Even if it's not exactly where you'd like it, it may not be a problem, as the plant and the microbes in the pot can affect the pH. Consider running the "pour through" test:
> 
> ...



Hi Ray, 
The Phrag is not truly in semi-hydo. It’s just a top dressing of LECA beads. It’s in a mix of bark, lava rock and small amount of promix. I only put the LECA on top a couple days ago in hopes of stabilizing it with out having too wet of a media on the stem. I did a pour through a couple weeks ago and it was good around high 6ph. If I use my well water with the Klite it barely touches the ph. Still in high 7ph. I also heard that some folks had issues with phosphoric acid. I agree that citric may be best. Or I should just get an RO system. But I’m also starting to wonder if this is not even a nutrient issue. Maybe something else???


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## NYEric (Jan 28, 2020)

Hi. The problem is on the last page of the article you posted.


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## BrucherT (Jan 28, 2020)

Ray said:


> Yeah, that's a drinking water analysis, not an irrigation water one, but your water is relatively pure. I'd drop the cal-mag, as K-Lite provides both and your water is also supplying a moderate amount of both of them. Is the excess Ca doing that? I doubt it, but cannot say for sure. I think your regimen is pretty good, although you're wasting money applying Inocucor more than once a week.
> 
> If you just add K-LIte to the water, what does your pH do? Even if it's not exactly where you'd like it, it may not be a problem, as the plant and the microbes in the pot can affect the pH. Consider running the "pour through" test:
> 
> ...


How do you mix the sour salt? What concentration per gallon?


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## BrucherT (Jan 28, 2020)

I have to put forward a couple thoughts, please take with a grain of salt and dismiss as you please.

1) as Ray notes, it looks a bit deeply potted. I’m wondering if that leaf is dying in order to drop off and allow roots and/or a new fan to grow out from the axil scar? I’ve noticed that my single-growth Phrags do this. Twice, I’ve had single growthers die completely back to nothing before sending up a nice healthy new fan from the roots. The single-growth Phrags are I think kind of annoying. Of course, it’s just how we buy them, they’re irresistible! But so far, I have not managed to get single fans to become multiple fans, going on 4 years of trying. I will let them bloom once, to see the flowers, and then immediately remove the spikes in hopes of promoting fans. It’s an awful lot to ask of a plant with 3 leaves to carry such a gargantuan spike.

2) I don’t think it’s an infection but why not cut off way back of the browning? The leaf is toast anyway...

3) what are your temps? Last summer my house got hot and Phrags were miserable.


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## Jenny St. Michel (Jan 28, 2020)

I think you may be right about the leaf trying to drop to allow roots. Because since Ray pointed out it looked to deeply potted I removed some of the LECA and there are some type of new growths coming along. And there’s new root tips in the pot. I removed the leaf this morning as well. The only reason I wasn’t cutting the brown tip off is because when it happened to the last 2 leaves it seemed like when I trimmed them they would then brown and die more rapidly. So I’m thinking from here I will stop using the Ph Down and only add Klite 3 times a week. Also my temps are 70 to 65 degrees. My other Phrags are divisions so maybe that’s why they are doing just fine. IDK. I think I tend to change too many things at once and then don’t know what caused a problem. Thanks for all the advice!!!!


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## NYEric (Jan 29, 2020)

!?!?! Fertilize more than twice a week!?!? I didn't read all the particulars of your posts. That much salts and non-RO water, hmmmm.. good luck.


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## Ray (Jan 29, 2020)

BrucherT said:


> How do you mix the sour salt? What concentration per gallon?


You add it little-by-little to your irrigation solution to lower the pH.



NYEric said:


> !?!?! Fertilize more than twice a week!?!? I didn't read all the particulars of your posts. That much salts and non-RO water, hmmmm.. good luck.


Had that been in S/H culture as it appeared, and the feeding was done by flushing the pot heavily each time, I doubt 1/8 tsp/gal would be an issue.


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## abax (Jan 29, 2020)

My reaction was the same as Eric's at fertilizing
three times a week even at 1/8 gal. solution,
especially at this time of year. I'm glad you commented on this Ray.


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## monocotman (Jan 30, 2020)

Whatever the fertilizer issues are, I'd still cut off the spike and give the plants time to grow and recover,
David


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## Jenny St. Michel (Jan 30, 2020)

monocotman said:


> Whatever the fertilizer issues are, I'd still cut off the spike and give the plants time to grow and recover,
> David


Hi David,
I also feel like I should cut it. I just need to be strong and unselfish and do it! Thanks again for the advice


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## Jenny St. Michel (Jan 30, 2020)

Thanks again everyone for the advice! I’m gonna cut the spike, only fertilize 2x weekly, stop using phosphoric acid, continue with Inocucor and Kelpmax monthly and see what happens. And look into RO System and citric acid in the meantime. Hopefully in a couple months I can update with good news


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## NYEric (Jan 30, 2020)

Ray said:


> Had that been in S/H culture as it appeared, and the feeding was done by flushing the pot heavily each time, I doubt 1/8 tsp/gal would be an issue.


But it's not.


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