# Grand Champion of Show Paph. malipoense



## quietaustralian (Sep 12, 2010)

The Royal Adelaide Show would be the major show in South Australia. It was great to see a Paph take the ribbon for Grand Champion of show. The plant isn’t mine but I thought you guys might be interested in seeing the pic. The plant was labelled as Paph. malipoense but I thought it was Norito Hasegawa. A lovely flower.
Regards, Mick


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## emydura (Sep 12, 2010)

Nice Mick. I agree with you on the identification.

David


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## biothanasis (Sep 12, 2010)

Oh, wow! Great flower!


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## likespaphs (Sep 12, 2010)

me three...
is the color accurate?


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## Ernie (Sep 12, 2010)

Looks like a NH to me. Stami and color tell me so.


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## etex (Sep 12, 2010)

Lovely bloom!!


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## wojtek (Sep 12, 2010)

Very nice bloom


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## JeanLux (Sep 12, 2010)

No malipo pure, and a lot of armeniacum Imo !!! but nice!!! Jean


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## Donw (Sep 12, 2010)

I believe its malponese,But as for Grand Champion of show with just one flower at a ribbion judging ?I have seen these plants with 15 too 20 Blooms on them ,Just sayin


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## Rick (Sep 12, 2010)

I've never seen a malipoe that yellow.

Is the color accurate?


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## likespaphs (Sep 12, 2010)

Donw said:


> I believe its malponese,But as for Grand Champion of show with just one flower at a ribbion judging ?I have seen these plants with 15 too 20 Blooms on them ,Just sayin



to me, the petals and the shape just make me think it's not.

p.s. welcome to slippertalk


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## Lanmark (Sep 12, 2010)

It's pretty, whatever it is!


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## GaryB (Sep 12, 2010)

Here is a nice picture from Antec Labs that shows Norito Hasegawa and both parents. It's clear from the photo that it is not malipoense. 

So, you do experienced, knowledgeable judges make a mistake like this one?

http://www.ladyslipper.com/noritcomp.jpg


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## Pete (Sep 12, 2010)

it is most likely a P. Norito Hasegawa. the segments are all very nice and full and the color is very nice. did it receive a quality award?


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## emydura (Sep 12, 2010)

Donw said:


> I believe its malponese,But as for Grand Champion of show with just one flower at a ribbion judging ?I have seen these plants with 15 too 20 Blooms on them ,Just sayin



Who's to say the plant doesn't have 15 or 20 flowers? I can only see a closeup of a single flower. If you have any photos of these large maliopoense, I'd love to see them.

In anycase, in Australia most of the emphasis is on flower quality rather than flower count. A plant doesn't need to be a specimen to be eligible for grand champion. A lot of flowers may help giving a plant a "WOW" factor or get a plant over the line in a close call, but it won't beat a single flowered plant with a superior flower.

David


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## NYEric (Sep 12, 2010)

ID, suspicious; award quallity, suspect. Oh well, congrats!


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Sep 12, 2010)

There is a thread on OSF about this....its NH.


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## SlipperFan (Sep 12, 2010)

It certainly looks like NH! Nice flower, but it shouldn't have been awarded as a malipoense.

Welcome to Slippertalk, quietaustralian and Donw!


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## paphioboy (Sep 12, 2010)

Hi... quietaustralian, are you from Adelaide..? I've just been to the show and I saw this plant, which belongs to a couple of very good growers in my society. The plant carried a single large flower. I guess flower quality is more emphasised in judging compared to quantity, as there were several cool-growing paphs (insigne, villosum) with more flowers but this one got first prize.. Plus parvis (and paphs in general) are pretty hard to come by as opposed to cyms and native dends...


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## quietaustralian (Sep 12, 2010)

paphioboy said:


> Hi... quietaustralian, are you from Adelaide..? I've just been to the show and I saw this plant, which belongs to a couple of very good growers in my society. The plant carried a single large flower. I guess flower quality is more emphasised in judging compared to quantity, as there were several cool-growing paphs (insigne, villosum) with more flowers but this one got first prize.. Plus parvis (and paphs in general) are pretty hard to come by as opposed to cyms and native dends...




As paphioboy said, the plant carried a single bloom and in my opinion a very nice one at that. Good Norito Hasegawas are far and few between and believe this one is very good. Yes paphioboy I’m in South Australia for a few more weeks. When I read in one of your posts that you were in Adelaide, I asked about you at a couple of meetings but as I didn’t have your real name, no one knew who I was talking about. PM me the club you’re a member of in SA.



emydura said:


> Who's to say the plant doesn't have 15 or 20 flowers? I can only see a closeup of a single flower. If you have any photos of these large maliopoense, I'd love to see them.
> 
> In anycase, in Australia most of the emphasis is on flower quality rather than flower count. A plant doesn't need to be a specimen to be eligible for grand champion. A lot of flowers may help giving a plant a "WOW" factor or get a plant over the line in a close call, but it won't beat a single flowered plant with a superior flower.
> 
> David



I agree with David in regard to flower quality over quantity. I have seen specimen size plants with mediocre flowers take the ribbon over stunning single bloom plants. Specimen plants are surely an indication of the growers ability and doesn’t relate to quality of blooms.
On a couple of occasions in Asia I have seen stunning specimen size plants that on closer inspection seemed to be different clones potted together. Nice one if you can get away with it. I’d also like to see some pics of malipoense or NH with 15-20 flowers, that would be a sight to see. 



Pete said:


> it is most likely a P. Norito Hasegawa. the segments are all very nice and full and the color is very nice. did it receive a quality award?



More than colour the staminode was the thing that struck me. I’ve seen a lot of variability in the colour and shape of malipoense but one thing that I don’t see much variability in is that solid blob of colour on the stami. Colour of pic is very close to actual flower. I don’t know if it was awarded or not. I think the plant deserved to win but if awarded will receive award as type. The pic was taken 7 days after the judging.

In summary a nice Paph took the prize


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## rdlsreno (Sep 13, 2010)

I agree Paph. Norito Hasegawa it is!

Ramon


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## John M (Sep 13, 2010)

It's a gorgeous flower; but, it's not pure malipoense. It looks like a very good N.H. Does anybody have good photos of the foliage? That will tell a story as well.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Sep 13, 2010)

Nice NH. Did I miss the dimensions on the flower? I guess judging is subjective.


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## quietaustralian (Oct 19, 2010)

It seems that the plant was awarded a HCC. Scoring 78.7 points.



http://www.orchidclubofsouthaustraliainc.com/linked/2010 10 ocsa.pdf


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## SlipperKing (Oct 19, 2010)

too bad


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## Roy (Oct 19, 2010)

I had a quiet word with a senior SA Judge 2 weeks ago and he said he knew of some debate about the plant but I think they are covering their tracks. No-one wants to admit they are wrong in accepting the name.


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## cliokchi (Oct 19, 2010)

*no doubt about it*

100% Paph. Norito Hasagawa no doubt in my mind it's anything else !!!
never the less a well deserving awardable Paph. hybrid with fore said name
but never never ever a Paph. malipoense no matter what the judges say .
happy orchid growing from Northern Thailand
cliokchi


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## NYEric (Oct 19, 2010)

Well someone seems sure!


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## paphioboy (Oct 19, 2010)

I've posted a pic of the plant in the Royal Adelaide Show thread... I've personally let the owner know of the ID but he insists it is malipoense... As not to discredit the breeder who he obtained the plant from...


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## smartie2000 (Oct 20, 2010)

paphioboy said:


> I've posted a pic of the plant in the Royal Adelaide Show thread... I've personally let the owner know of the ID but he insists it is malipoense... As not to discredit the breeder who he obtained the plant from...



that is unfortunate someone is unwilling to take your suggestion. (if this plant is used in breeding then we will have lots of mislabelled plants...)

But this is a gorgeous bloom and I agree with the above.


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## Ernie (Oct 20, 2010)

paphioboy said:


> As not to discredit the breeder who he obtained the plant from...



Well the breeder and exhibitor are doing a much worse thing by not coming clean. I'd buy from a grower that admits a mistake over one that hides theirs any day!


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## John M (Oct 20, 2010)

Ernie said:


> Well the breeder and exhibitor are doing a much worse thing by not coming clean. I'd buy from a grower that admits a mistake over one that hides theirs any day!



AGREED! Faced with the obvious truth; but, insisting on ignoring it, the grower and breeder are a couple of nitwits that should be blacklisted. They are doing the entire orchid hobby in Australia a huge disservice by acting like a couple of spineless wimps who can't simply admit a mistake. Idiots!


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## quietaustralian (Oct 20, 2010)

John M said:


> AGREED! Faced with the obvious truth; but, insisting on ignoring it, the grower and breeder are a couple of nitwits that should be blacklisted. They are doing the entire orchid hobby in Australia a huge disservice by acting like a couple of spineless wimps who can't simply admit a mistake. Idiots!




The facts are simply. 
1) Mistaken identity 
2) Lovely bloom. 
Anything beyond that is hearsay, conjecture and gossip.

I don’t know who the breeder was but the exhibiters are certainly not nitwits,spineless wimps or idiots. They are in fact well respected, tireless workers within the South Australian orchid community.


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## Kevin (Oct 20, 2010)

Let's not throw insults until you know all the facts. I would like to know, though, the reasoning for not admiting a mistake like this.


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## John M (Oct 21, 2010)

Okay. So, my words are a bit strong; but, I'm not going to edit my post because then the posts that follow will not have the correct context. However, it does seem that at least the grower and the judges have their stubborn heads in the sand. In my book, when it comes to willfully messing with and contaminating the genepool of species by deliberately mislabelling a select hybrid plant as a species, or by refusing to correct an obvious mistake, that is unconscionable and tantamount to giving a one finger salute to present-day and future generations of orchid growers. ....And why would they do this? Well, for one thing, they get to keep the award status of the plant in-tact and that is a selfish reason to allow a hybrid to continue to masquerade as a superior form of a species.



paphioboy said:


> I've posted a pic of the plant in the Royal Adelaide Show thread... I've personally let the owner know of the ID but he insists it is malipoense... As not to discredit the breeder who he obtained the plant from...


I took what Paphioboy said to mean that the growers have consulted with the breeder about this plant. Now I see that perhaps Paphioboy did not mean that; but rather, perhaps he was simply offering his own conjecture as to why the grower would insist the identity is malipoense, even in the face of obvious evidence to the contrary. So, my mistake there....sorry. Nevertheless; the grower's opinion does not hold water......and to continue to insist this flower is pure malipoense will inspire more than just me to roll their eyes and refer to the grower - who chooses to perpetuate the incorrect identification, with less than complimentary vocabulary.


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## Kevin (Oct 21, 2010)

I agree, but it's best to find out all the facts first. I'm hoping there is a good explanation for this. There is obviously a problem with the breeder and/or seller in letting this plant get out with an incorrect name, and not correcting it, but I think worse is that it is now in the record books as having won a HCC (what judging organization was this? HCC/what?) To be truly respected as a breeder/seller/judge, this type of thing shouldn't be let to slide. Just my thoughts.


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## paphioboy (Oct 21, 2010)

> I took what Paphioboy said to mean that the growers have consulted with the breeder about this plant. Now I see that perhaps Paphioboy did not mean that; but rather, perhaps he was simply offering his own conjecture as to why the grower would insist the identity is malipoense, even in the face of obvious evidence to the contrary.



To clarify, John, it was not conjecture on my part. The owner/exhibitor of the plant himself told me that he accepted the plant ID being malipoense as that was what he bought it as and he didn't want to discredit the breeder (I do not know who the breeder is and if the owner had consulted with the breeder)...


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## John M (Oct 21, 2010)

Thank you Paphipboy. So, it seems that while the plant may have left the breeder's greenhouse bearing the wrong name, there is no evidence of the breeder deliberately mislabelling it. The plant simply got the wrong tag in the pot; as unfortunately, often does happen.

However, the growers; who are "well respected and a tireless workers" (and therefore, must have been around in the orchid world for some time and have gained a fair amount of experience along the way), are choosing to maintain the status of an obvious and undeniable mislabelling. In doing so, they benefit by getting to keep the award and Grand Champion status given to this plant.....as a malipoense. Plus, since the breeder was not disclosed to you (Paphioboy), how can the growers say that they are protecting the breeder from being discredited? If people don't know who the breeder is, why go to such lengths to protect the breeder's reputation? Besides, that logic is flawed. Maintaining an incorrect name on a plant will continuously have the potential of discrediting the breeder. To correct the mistake now, maintains the breeders reputation, should his identity become known. After all, it is an incredibly high quality NH. If the breeder is ethical, I should think that he would A) appreciate learning of the correct identity of his cross and B) probably enjoy extra business because of the high profile of this awesome NH. A breeder that wishes to perpetuate misinformation rather than simply correct it, is a breeder that is deserving of being discredited. By refusing to consult with the breeder and correct the mistake, the grower is causing discredit, not preventing it.

It seems to all come down to the grower's desire to simply continue to enjoy the spoils of this unfortunate misidentification and it has nothing to do with the breeder at all. The growers are either embarrassed and stubbornly unable to simply admit that they made a mistake in exhibiting this plant as pure malipoense; or, they want to profit (financially or otherwise), from the current award status of the plant as a malipoense. Either way, they are not so deserving of being "well respected". If that plant is used in breeding as a pure malipoense, Australians can look forward to a contaminated genepool in the years to come. I don't respect anyone who would deliberately do that.


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## Kevin (Oct 21, 2010)

The other issue would be the judges, right? Should they not have been able to tell that the plant in front of them was not correctly labelled? And, when searching for other malipoenses in the data base to compare to this one, did they not see that it doesn't look anything like the others? I don't know - maybe a judge could step in here to shed some light on this?


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## Roy (Oct 21, 2010)

I'm an AOC Judge and when I first saw the pic psted I agreed fully than it wasn't malipoense. The subject has been raised with judging circles here.
The owners seem to be a protected species for some reason or the panel who judged it are being protected, not sure which.


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## Fabrice (Oct 22, 2010)

:rollhappy::rollhappy::rollhappy:

There are also incompetent judges. But it may be also an arrangement beetween friends...it's shameful and completely discredits the quality of all judgments

Look at this very original rothschildianum:oke:


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## emydura (Oct 22, 2010)

Reminds me of the St Swithin that was awarded here in Australia as a rothschildianum 'Burleigh Waters'. People still try and sell that as an awarded roths. For those in Australia, don't touch it. How the hell can an orchid judge not recognise a rothschildianum.

That Norito Hasegawa is pretty obviously not a maliopoense. You wonder what criteria the judges were basing there decision on. They obviously have no idea what a maliopoense even looks like. So it must be difficult to come up with an informed decision.

David


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## Pete (Oct 22, 2010)

i dont see what all the hoopla is about. anybody can say anything, or not say anything they want. everybody knows its not a malipoense.


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## paphioboy (Oct 22, 2010)

> Reminds me of the St Swithin that was awarded here in Australia as a rothschildianum 'Burleigh Waters'. People still try and sell that as an awarded roths.



Does that have anything to do with Burleigh Park nursery...?  I thought they are a reputable source....


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## emydura (Oct 22, 2010)

paphioboy said:


> Does that have anything to do with Burleigh Park nursery...?  I thought they are a reputable source....



I don't know. I'm not aware of any connection.

David


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## biothanasis (Oct 22, 2010)

Fabrice, this one looks very mucho...!!!!!


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## Roy (Oct 22, 2010)

paphioboy said:


> Does that have anything to do with Burleigh Park nursery...?  I thought they are a reputable source....



No connection at all, whatso ever.


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## Ernie (Oct 22, 2010)

Neat St Swithin there.


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## John M (Oct 22, 2010)

Pete said:


> i dont see what all the hoopla is about. anybody can say anything, or not say anything they want. everybody knows its not a malipoense.



Well, apparently the judges (poeple who definitely SHOULD know better), didn't know it wasn't a malipoense. God only knows how that happened! This award is a huge stain on the credibility and relevance of the whole judging system. A few more awards like this and nobody will give a hoot about having anything judged. What would be the point if the judges are so incompetant or prone to "favouring" thier friends with bogus awards? To lose the judging system would be a shame; but, if it does not produce quality, defendible decisions, that's what will happen. It's relevance will drop and drop until it's just too laughable for anyone to respect at all.

My hoopla is that some unsuspecting newbie might one day pay a king's ransom for a division of this "malipoense" and that's just dishonest. Plus, if this NH is used in breeding as a malipoense....and especially if it is crossed with a true malipoense, the offspring will obviously have foreign gene contamination; but, being 3/4 malipoense, they will look even more like a malipoense and many of them will likely end up in collections of people who are not experienced enough to realize that they've got a hybrid on their hands. 

Mislabelling a hybrid with the name of another hybrid is one thing; but, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter. Hybrids are man-made and they come and go based on the whims of fashion. However, true species are the foundation of breeding. They are part of our natural history, they have endured for thousands of years. Mislabelling a hybrid as a species harms conservation and preservation efforts and it compromises the available gene pool of breeders. It's a despicable, selfish act when a grower chooses to knowingly perpetuate the incorrect identity of a hybrid plant that has been misidentified as a species.


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## Candace (Oct 22, 2010)

Why can't awards be nullified? They are here, rarely, if new info. comes up about the plant. I think awards can and should be nullified if need be.


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## slippertalker (Oct 22, 2010)

I'm not sure how the Aussies handle such problems, but the AOS does have a review process where a plant that is disputed can be corrected. All it takes is a judge willing to notice the problem. I wouldn't see this as some nefarious plot, but instead as a mistake by some people that didn't know what they were looking at and an exhibitor that didn't know what he was presenting.


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## callosum (Oct 22, 2010)

1.it's a broblem of judes to identified plant
2.now like a concorlor the most round or perfected shaped the more question
3.however the judgement are final words
4.if confused go to 1.
hu hu


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