# Hurricane Sandy



## The Mutant (Oct 29, 2012)

Me, being an ignorant person in Sweden, didn't hear about this approaching...disaster, until just a moment ago.

I know there are members living in the area where it's (she's?) supposed to hit, and, well, I hope you guys will be okay.

How are things? Anything you want to share?

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you!


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## Paul Mc (Oct 29, 2012)

I am so glad you posted this mutant! I want to do so this morning, but I had to rush off to my ex job to train some people. Please everyone, be safe and check on your neighbors! Let us know as soon as you can that you are okay!


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## KyushuCalanthe (Oct 29, 2012)

Looks bad - especially the surge along the Jersey coast, NYC area and Long Island. Incredible that this storm is still a Cat 1 that far north and is HUGE. Everyone stay safe.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Oct 29, 2012)

It's making landfall in New Jersey as I type. Where I am, one of the highest elevations in Queens, so I am safe. Lights keep flickering, but we have power...but 18,200 people in Queens have no power now...1 person dead, killed when a tree pinned him against a car. Flooding in all low-lying areas, which are under evacuation orders. No public transportation. But for all that, from my window, just another windy storm, no worse than others. Yet.


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## SlipperKing (Oct 29, 2012)

That sounds good so far Eric. Any word on NYEric?


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## keithrs (Oct 29, 2012)

Everyone stay safe!!!!


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## Paul Mc (Oct 29, 2012)

Please update us everyone! If at all possible. If you need us to contact local emergency authorities for anything, please let us know ASAP!


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## cnycharles (Oct 29, 2012)

SlipperKing said:


> That sounds good so far Eric. Any word on NYEric?



he emailed me earlier today saying that we should go surfing..... he's in a tall building, which is going to gets tons of wind and swaying around

I went out around 730pm looking for some 'd' batteries for my radio, none to be found. it's not really raining here, but just a steady 25mph breeze


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## Paul Mc (Oct 29, 2012)

Pooh, I'm already motion sick just thinking of that, lol...


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## cnycharles (Oct 29, 2012)

20+ floors up, I think! :rollhappy: ... just think of all those orchids sliding back and forth along the floor


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## Paul Mc (Oct 29, 2012)

They may be ok, but I'd be throwing up!!! ROFL, or should I say ROLF, lol....


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## Yoyo_Jo (Oct 29, 2012)

Was thinking of all of you in the east while watching the news tonight. Be safe.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Oct 29, 2012)

NY Eric will be safe, as he is pretty high up. However, I am assuming he can't update us because he has no power. Lower Manhattan has no power in most areas, from 39 st down. My sister in law lives in Soho....has no electricity. Eric is a few blocks away on Houston, so I'm sure he's out also. He's far enough from the water to avoid flooding, but lower Manhattan got a surge of 13+ feet, highest ever recorded there. Subways in lower Manhattan are flooded...they are pumping it out as fast as the East river flows in.....


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## SlipperFan (Oct 29, 2012)

New York would not be the place to be right now. I would not like to be up high in a swaying skyscraper with flooded streets below. I hope Eric and all of our East Coast friends are safe.


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## NYEric (Oct 30, 2012)

Hi everyone; I'm fine, thank you. I left work at noon to volunteer to work at an emergency shelter. Since my job is 3 bridges along the shore we started the day removing things from the water's edge but I dont think we anticipated the surge enough. I'm hoping none of our barges collided with our bridges.  My S.O. called because we got a warning about the power being pre-emptively shut off. However there was a transformer explosion at one of the East side powerplants so they will have problems when they start back up. Besides lots of trees down, flooding was really bad in southern Brooklyn, one police precinct was underwater and had to be evacuated. Hopefully we wont get much more weather and clean up will be quick. Hopefully we will stillhave Mass Orchid show next weekend.


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## TyroneGenade (Oct 30, 2012)

Hi all,

I just got back from the USA, flew out of JFK on Saturday morning. Laura and I had been travelling one step ahead of Sandy since arriving in Florida on the 19th. We managed one snorkeling trip off the keys before the currents got to strong... By the time we left Key West the wind was getting quite strong and the rain was moving in. We had two lovely days in New York City enjoying the calm before the storm. Awesome city. It would be so much more enjoyable without the throng of tourists :wink:

Hope NY and the East coast quickly get back on their feet.


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## Ray (Oct 30, 2012)

We lost power about 7 pm, and have no idea when it'll be restored. Fortunately my generator powers the greenhouse, our well pump, furnace (for heat and hot water), and a few, random circuits around the house to provide minimal lighting, but also the FIOS box and the computers and phones.

I was very happy to learn that a tank of gas keeps the generator running for over 12 hours, allowing me to get a decent night's sleep.

Lots of branches down, but no damage to house, greenhouse, or the First Rays van, which lives outdoors.

All cooking is on the gas grill, but that's no big deal, although cooking bacon and eggs was a challenge while holding an umbrella, this morning.


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## TyroneGenade (Oct 30, 2012)

Ray said:


> All cooking is on the gas grill, but that's no big deal, although cooking bacon and eggs was a challenge while holding an umbrella, this morning.



Camping in the concrete jungle?

Count your blessings. An umbrella wouldn't have helped the folks in Virginia under 3 ft of snow---but maybe George Micheal's leg-warmers would have?


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## Ray (Oct 30, 2012)

I took a walk around the neighborhood, and several folks lost huge trees - mostly spruces whose foliage provided wind resistance.

One neighbor had a huge tree come through the roof into his family room, where he and his wife had been sitting not 15 minutes earlier.


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## Rick (Oct 30, 2012)

Big cold front moving in.

If no power and collection in an appartment building (with no generator) any ideas for staying warm?

Maybe some of those camping propane or kerosene heaters.


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## gonewild (Oct 30, 2012)

Rick said:


> Big cold front moving in.
> 
> If no power and collection in an appartment building (with no generator) any ideas for staying warm?
> 
> Maybe some of those camping propane or kerosene heaters.



If your power goes out the first thing to do is to cover your windows with blankets or anything to add insulation to hold in heat as long as possible.


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## keithrs (Oct 30, 2012)

Rick said:


> Big cold front moving in.
> 
> If no power and collection in an appartment building (with no generator) any ideas for staying warm?
> 
> Maybe some of those camping propane or kerosene heaters.



I wouldn't recommend a open flame in an appt. I would cover them with a sheet and do as gonewild has pointed out.... That's just me!


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## SlipperFan (Oct 30, 2012)

Good to hear from Eric & Ray. Anyone else?

Rick, be careful about propane or kerosene heaters -- don't they give off carbon monoxide?


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## cnycharles (Oct 30, 2012)

kerosene heaters are commonly used as space heaters in living spaces though sometimes they can be a little stinky... I bought a propane heater before one big cold winter storm a few years ago just in case my plants needed heat; you can't use them in any enclosed room if you are going to be in it breathing, but if you are very careful you may be able to use certain ones where your plants are, then you would have to be in another room with fresh air. I ended up not needing it as the power didn't go off and traded it to someone for something else

I'm seeing on the news (one of the very few times in the last several months that i've actually watched television) tonight that the storm is causing huge waves on the great lakes and can be felt as far away as chicago, and snow is even in ohio. lots of snow in west virginia and related mountains...

last night when huge gust of wind would approach, I heard some cans (pickles, tomatoes etc that I had canned last month that have the thin metal lid over glass jars) that when the air pressure dropped or raised, one of the lids would 'pop' up or down. I'd never heard the air pressure change that quickly before, and i also heard on the news tonight that the center of the storm had such low air pressure... saw and heard for the first time of the huge fire in queens, hopefully no-where near eric m. brother is still in tall apartment in lower brooklyn but think they have power and not going anywhere, and sister/family in west orange which is higher ground they had some minor damage from tree gently falling on part of roof. here it was windier today, but didn't see any big damage on the greenhouse roofs, though some spots had to be repaired here and there. so far family has all been fine, things here have been worse during hard summer storms, so we are very fortunate

hope all that are still without power or looking at seas of water around their homes all make out well and can pick up and continue on


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## Clark (Oct 30, 2012)

No power here.
Cabin fever is gettting worse.

Send retilin........


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## Ruth (Oct 30, 2012)

Eric
Are you very close to the fire that took place in Queens? Are you all right?


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## cnycharles (Oct 30, 2012)

Clark said:


> No power here.
> Cabin fever is gettting worse.
> 
> Send retilin........



is sandy hook still there, or is it called sandy pond or big pile of wet mud??

hang in there


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## Clark (Oct 30, 2012)

I heard it is an island now.
No damage at our house really. Barely rained. 
But coastal folks are paying price. Mold will be a problem soon.
When we get normal internet service back, I'll post some pics..


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## Clark (Oct 30, 2012)

Send cold beer.


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## Paph_LdyMacBeth (Oct 30, 2012)

If you have warm beer...just place it outside!

I'm worried about Eric. Doesn't look like he's been on, has he? Hopefully, he's just without power...though what does a busy bee like him do all cooped up!

Please don't use a propane heater in an enclosed bldg. They are a carbon monoxide hazard. 
Blankets, lots of blankets! Wear a hat in the house to conserve heat.
Winter camping has taught the frozen one many things -most of which include loose layers and keeping my head covered!

Sent from my BlackBerry 9300 using Tapatalk


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## Rick (Oct 30, 2012)

Paph_LdyMacBeth said:


> Please don't use a propane heater in an enclosed bldg. They are a carbon monoxide hazard.
> Blankets, lots of blankets! Wear a hat in the house to conserve heat.
> Winter camping has taught the frozen one many things -most of which include loose layers and keeping my head covered!



New ventless Blue Flame heaters are good. I believe rated for indoor use with minimal venting too. I've used one in my GH for multiple years. 30,000 BTU and no electricity required. But I doubt if any are available in NYCity as well as 100lb propane bottles.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200395468_200395468

Blankets are great for keeping warm blooded critters happy, but won't do the orchids any good.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Oct 31, 2012)

I'm ok. No internet. My smartphone is a pain to write with. The fire was in the rockaways...evacuated, so no one hurt. No access to water due to the flood, 80 homes destroyed, including my congressman. Can't stand him, but wouldnt wish that on a dog...


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## abax (Oct 31, 2012)

I helped with a big flood many years ago and after Katrina
and the worst is yet to come really...the clean up. Dealing
with home owners in shock, stinky sticky mud in and on everything and family pictures that can't be replaced, small businesses trying to dig out with no money coming in is a horror story. All my good vibes to those who will be trying to restart their lives.


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## goldenrose (Oct 31, 2012)

Paph_LdyMacBeth said:


> ...... I'm worried about Eric. Doesn't look like he's been on, has he? Hopefully, he's just without power...though what does a busy bee like him do all cooped up!


He's been on How's the weather thread. Chances are he's not cooped up, he's probably working his butt off! He posted before that he's a volunteer to help prep the city for this type of thing & helps at the shelters too! So my wishes are that he's getting some sleep!


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## Cheyenne (Oct 31, 2012)

Well, I was out of power for a day or so. The house was pretty cold when I got up. My orchid room was 49 degrees. Lucky the power came on later and heated back up. We got a lot of rain. Besides some trees down and some flooding it wasn't too bad. A lot of roads were closed so it was hard to get around. But in Maryland we got off easier than some surrounding states. Getting back to normal now. At least I got a lot of repotting done, didn't need power for that.


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## Leo_5313 (Oct 31, 2012)

I hope that everyone is safe and electricity will be restored soon.


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## ehanes7612 (Oct 31, 2012)

i have family in Atlantic Highlands who say its the worst they have ever seen (they are in their sixties) ..they watched from their house, as their harbor below disappeared , the rush of water taking the boats away....
met some New Yorkers yesterday in L.A., stranded , so they decided to fly to Seattle and check it out


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## NYEric (Nov 1, 2012)

Hurricane!? :rollhappy: driving in downtown manhattan is like deathrace 2000!! I have been working steadily, 4 hours sleep since sunday night. I got to go home this afternoon and i carried 4 gallons of water up 20 stories for my neighbor. We then went uptown to a friends to take showers and it was like nothing happened; people eating in outdoor cafes, riding bikes, jogging!!  Now i'm back working at the shelter. I'll try to post some photos tomorrow.


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## bullsie (Nov 1, 2012)

Seems at this point we may not have lost any of our dear ST friends - thankfully! 

We had rain. Very intense, non stop hard rain, all day and all night and all day and.... The first morning the dogs wouldn't go out. By evening I shoved everyone out the door and they wouldn't leave the stoop. Second 'potty' run I put them out the back door and called them into the front door. The old girl found a dog box out back and holed up in it while I stood in the rain out front calling her and getting worried she didn't show up. Finally went looking for her and found her in the old box. Sheep ran out and ran back in just as fast. Had to put Kramer the alpaca in with the weanling lambs - all he wanted to do was stand outside and look cross. I didn't even let Granny the llama and her buddy Tipsy the nuclear disaster sheep out. No use letting them get wet and Tipsy could get chilled and her blanket soaked. Horses and chickens kept in and guinea fowl flew out every morning and doors opened enough they could come in in evening, crazy birds. 

Very chilly and muddy but all is well here. I'm very relieved and happy. Hope all without electric stay safe and hopefully no loss of orchids either.


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## eOrchids (Nov 1, 2012)

All is well in central jersey. Just no power!


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## Clark (Nov 1, 2012)

Fuel is bei g siphoned from automobiles now (stolen).


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## gonewild (Nov 1, 2012)

Clark said:


> Fuel is bei g siphoned from automobiles now (stolen).



Tomorrow.... Thunderdome?


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## Paul Mc (Nov 1, 2012)

Oh dear... Please stay safe through the looting!


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 1, 2012)

I have photos I'll post here when my internet is restored. if anyone is on Facebook, you can see them there. its a weird mix here of normal and crisis...supermarkets are well stocked in some aisles, nearly bare in others. a good time to be vegan........I finally go back to work tomorrow, but kids dont go to school til Monday.


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## Ray (Nov 2, 2012)

We got power back about 1 a.m. All-in-all, we skated through this OK. I really feel for the folks in NJ, lower Manhattan, etc.


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## li'l frog (Nov 2, 2012)

Has anybody got any news about J&L?


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## wjs2nd (Nov 2, 2012)

I grow up in south jersey, just above wildwood, and I heard things got flooded really bad!


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## NYEric (Nov 2, 2012)

Power is coming back on in lower Manhattan. Hopefully we can go home tomorrow.


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## SlipperFan (Nov 2, 2012)

NYEric said:


> Power is coming back on in lower Manhattan. Hopefully we can go home tomorrow.



Keeping fingers crossed.


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## paphioboy (Nov 3, 2012)

Hope all ST members are alright....


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## TyroneGenade (Nov 3, 2012)

I don't get it. I had a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_York_hurricanes and it seems New York suffers a major hurricane about once every 22 years with an increase in hurricane frequency over a ~50 year cycle... Yet New York seems mostly unprepared. The Salvation Army is armed with cookies and hot chocolate and seems totally out of blankets and quite possible never had any etc... (Our Salvation Army etc... has a constant stock of blankets, enough for 2 years worth of disasters so it is never caught off guard). New Yorkers seem, for the most part, on the global warming band-wagon and a favourite scare tactic of the warmers is the mantra "hurricanes will become more frequent and powerful" (for which there is no evidence...) I would have expected quite the opposite of what I'm seeing on the news. New York and New Jersey seem totally unprepared for this scale of disaster. The 1821, 1893, 1938, 1944 etc were huge and caused massive damage. The current disaster is hardly unprecedented. Your leaders seem to have stuffed up in a big way in not making adequate preparations for the inevitable.


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## Clark (Nov 3, 2012)

This was barely a hurricane.
No power yet. Maybe Monday.

Favorite part of movie is whhen Tina Turner says to Raggeddy Man(MadMax), "You can shovel **** cant you??"

Classic.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Nov 3, 2012)

Hang in there Clark, and everybody else. May you shove poo many years to come :rollhappy:

I talked to my mom yesterday for the first time since the storm hit (her phone was down all week and she is technologically "challenged"). She lives well north of NYC in Peekskill, NY and said that conditions even there were very bad. In her words, "I can't ever remember any storm with this kind of power coming here". She's 79 and has a scary good memory. 

She said that trees were down everywhere, the power was off for many folks (luckily not her), constant rainy conditions for over a week, "the worst winds I've ever experienced in my life", and on down the road. Moreover, folks are syphoning gas since there is a shortage. It seems like the days back in the early 70s during the embargo. My sister can get to work, but she barely has enough gas to get there and then runs the risk someone will take what little is left in her tank to get home!

As for the folks on the Jersey Shore and the hard hit parts of the city, my heart goes out to them. Storms like this can't really be planned for completely (nearly a 14 foot surge at the Battery!). What this storm tells me is that our system of things is delicate, easily damaged, and not to be taken for granted. The great earthquake and tsunami that happened here last year had the same message - modern society lives in a precarious balance with "nature".


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## Shiva (Nov 3, 2012)

Hang in there people. My heart is feeling for you. I'm sure we got a bunch of Hydro-Québec workers helping out to restore power for you.

Here's a link: http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/hydro-quebec-sends-crews-to-help-new-york-1.1023010


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## NYEric (Nov 3, 2012)

Got power, etc back today. Moved back home, no apparent damage to plants or pets. We took the gecko with us because it was freezing.


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## Clark (Nov 3, 2012)

Insane amount of looting in my area.
Power midweek maybe.


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## gonewild (Nov 3, 2012)

Clark said:


> Insane amount of looting in my area.
> Power midweek maybe.



Are people looting for sport or out of need?


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## Clark (Nov 3, 2012)

Opinion- sport/profit.
Gas is available, if one is willing to wait.

I get logged out rather quick on the phone.
Sorry for short posts.


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## SlipperFan (Nov 3, 2012)

@Eric -- good news!
@Clark -- hope your power is restored soon!


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 3, 2012)

Tyrone- It seems like the hurricane was a surprise to NYC, but it wasn't. The discussion has been going on for years about hurricane preparation. In fact, over 15 years ago I attended a lecture at Queens College about how the NYC region was statistically overdue for a real "big one" (and no, this was actually not the "big one"!") The scenario of a major hurricane coming in on incoming high tide has been played out for years to the city, and in fact, the mayor took considerable heat for preparing for Irene as if it was the big one, when in fact it was nowhere near. But no, this was not the big one. The big one would be a Cat 4 storm coming in aiming square for the NY bight- with NY Harbor in the center- on incoming tide with 20-24' surge. I've been through quite a few hurricanes before- this one, as far as wind and rain goes, was not much...less, in fact than Irene. But the storm surge came on the full moon incoming tide. Landfall was made- well south of NYC- as high tide peaked. And remember....this was NOT the big one! But how much can you do with a walled off bulkheaded shoreline? All you can realistically do is plan for evacuations and anticipating the floodwaters. When the city was built, the occasional hurricane wouldn't cause that much damage. The city is built beyond colonial recognition now...and we had been spared bad hurricanes, but luck can only go so far.


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## Clark (Nov 4, 2012)

Me too Dot.
The candlelight dinners are losing their novelty.
Thanks


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## TyroneGenade (Nov 5, 2012)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> Tyrone- It seems like the hurricane was a surprise to NYC, but it wasn't. The discussion has been going on for years about hurricane preparation.



Brushing up on my history I can see that many in the past were far more powerful and that it was "freak" conditions which caused the major problems (flooding etc...) but what blows my mind is how unprepared people are for the clean-up.

Every year in Cape Town there are fires and flooding in the low-lying areas (where all the poor people were forced to live 40+ years ago). Disaster is inevitable and we are now fully prepared to deal with it. The various NGOs and government stock up on blankets, food, tents etc... so that at any one time they can deal with two years worth of disaster at once. And the gov. workers and utilities are drilled on ensuring power etc... comes back quickly. Every thing I see on the news suggests there was no clean-up plan. People are sitting out in the cold and all the Salvation Army can do is offer hot chocolate and cookies. Where are the blankets, food parcels etc..? There were comments about the people should have been prepared etc... or evacuated. But how do you get several million people out of a small area? If every person rushed out to setup an emergency supply all the shops would have been exhausted before half the people were set.

Among death and taxes you can add the certainty of stupidity. People innately function as if they believe the good times will never end. So any half-decent leader would prepare for disaster with this in mind: that many people will be found utterly unprepared when the worst comes to the worst... It seems to me that the aid operation for the 2004 Dec 26 Earthquake in SE Asia got better US military coordinated aid than NYC and NJ. In any disaster the major needs are going to be clean water, warmth, food and hygiene. After Katrina one would have thought your Fed. Gov. & FEMA would have had a plan put together to aid a major city in the wake of disaster, meeting the afore mentioned needs. It just seems to me that your leaders are only prepared for photo-ops in the midst of a disaster. I'm surprised your President wasn't posing on the NJ beach with an ice-cream cone like he was for oil-rig disaster. You should really vote the whole mess out for proving, beyond doubt, their inability to foresee consequences of inevitable consequences.

Over hear we have an utterly corrupt government but we deal effectively with disaster.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 5, 2012)

If we vote the whole mess out we will just get another equivalent, but new, mess. Disaster preparedness costs money....and where will the money come from? Somehow I don't think it will trickle down from huge business profits.......
Americans have an undying phobia of the possibility of taxes....they fear the possibility even more than the taxes themselves. One of the reasons for the paralysis of government here is that nearly all the members of one of our governing parties have taken a nonsensical "pledge" to never, ever, under any circumstances, even think the thought of raising taxes, for any purpose whatsoever, no excuses. Voting them out does no good if they are not replaced by anything better. Have you ever looked up a sewage outflow pipe to see what is coming after all the crap has poured out? You guessed it- more sewage! There has always been a "vote the bums out" sentiment in this country. So we vote the bums out, then vote some more in. Realistically, who really wants to become a politician? A caring pragmatic individual who only has the good of the country/state/city at heart? If you believe so, I have a very nice bridge in Brooklyn I can sell you at a discount......


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## TyroneGenade (Nov 7, 2012)

I read there is now a viral outbreak... Water, food, shelter, hygiene. Why is that so hard for a disaster relief agency to get right?

Yes, Eric. Politics is very much like a man buying a dog to guard his house but then the dog barks all night, so he gets another dog which barks all night, so her gets another dog... It isn't so much that you bought a dog which barks as much as that dogs, by definition, bark. Similarly, politicians, by definition: lie, sell-out and serve themselves etc... if they didn't they wouldn't go far in politics. But your comments about business not being very helpful isn't exactly accurate. Read this (yes, the author is bit over the top in his interpretation but his facts rarely are out). (Oh, this little book on taxes and economics may give you another perspective to consider.) Faceless unaccountable government organisations rarely deliver for the simple reason that they are faceless and unaccountable. More often than not they just get in the way. My Rotary Club is trying to upgrade several poor inner city schools. The Department of Education is more of a hindrance than a help. If we didn't have an inside man in Parliament who can call the Department out and kick up a fuss nothing would ever happen. Each of the damned bureaucrats would just follow the rules because as long as they follow the rules they get to keep their job. The more people can do for themselves without government interference the more can get done.

Having the benefit of being 1000s of miles away from the problem of the of exchange bums every election, it seems to me that the problem is that the general populace have been conned into believing that their only options are Democrat Bum 1 and Republican Bum 2 (which, lets face it, are perfectly interchangeable) when there are other well meaning (and often more consistent, ethical and honorable) candidates who never get considered. This idea of voting for the contender most likely at standing a shot at winning sounds to me just as much of a sell out as the politicians choosing one stance over another because it will win votes (rather than whether it is right or wrong). Of course, being 1000s of miles away means this isn't any of my business. I have enough problems here. The 2nd largest political party wants to turn us into a 2-party state where every year we get to vote between idiot 1 and 2 to run the country into the ground. Personally, I prefer the 1-party state where I have very little responsibility for whomever the President is who is running the country into the ground.

Eric, tell me more about that bridge... The ferry to Robben Island keeps breaking down and we need to get the high-paying tourists across in a timely fashion to gawk at Nelson Mandela's prison cell.

I fear, all this political talk will offend sensitive viewers and we'll end up in "The Outback" but if we can't discuss religion, sex and politics what else is there to talk about? The weather? Oh... that's politics again.

FYI: I am thrilled with the election outcome. This means more US investors fleeing to developing countries like South Africa. I see already the $ is taking a knock as the smart money flees. Bad news for all my unemployed and struggling friends in the US though.


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## cnycharles (Nov 8, 2012)

I believe that the viral outbreak was the meningitis that's been around for a few months, unless i'm wrong; that is tied to bad known standards at a pharmaceutical plant

business people were on record as stating that they would close their businesses if the current president were to be retained. the people here believe whatever they see on their televisions and smart phones, whether or not it's the truth, and if it's not exactly kosher there is no press saying that it's wrong (Because the tv companies are owned by the same ones who own politicians), so everyone just keeps saying baaa and walking towards the cliff. almost everyone swallows the nonsense which keeps moving the people into strong division, which will only get worse because the news says that this is what they should do. I heard two days ago that american large companies already have the highest tax burden of all nations (who says the u.s. isn't a world leader in something), and heard examples of large corporations who used to be here and have left for other places, and how much money they are saving now. I work with many refugees who after a few years, can easily see that the current administration is messed up, and our jobs, which will be gone if nobody buys our greenhouse, which will be difficult because who has money, our layoffs will be permanent, they all know that if the present group stays jobs will not come back.

tyrone, though you say many things that make sense, the disaster agency can't hold everyone's hand and force them to do what is sanitary.. though I have no ties to any federal group disaster agency, people can only be given the information and have to act accordingly. there are many relief agencies trying to help out, many non-governmental, and they can assist but only can help when they have enough donations and man and woman power, and even though they can tell everyone to be clean and safe, it's up to the people to pay attention.

though I am all for voting out bums when needed, many times people make a fuss and say 'this one is bad'.. but when it comes time to vote they continue to vote the party line. some don't, but often in some areas the stagnant voters (ones who never change) overwhelm any others. and I have heard many times, that politicians are the way they are, because the views that they express are often those of the general population, so how could you possibly find politicians with clean hearts and minds, when they are just expressing the general state of mind of the population? garbage in means garbage out (different expression of what eric m already pointed out). if the general population didn't agree with the radical directions of officials, they would be voted out; since they continue to think that the present officials are okay, they must be either completely brainwashed, or as corrupt in heart and mind as the officials they can't vote out office (because the 'other guy' will be big business etc, same old nonsense)


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## Clark (Nov 8, 2012)

AM radio station 1010 Wins reported this morning that the FEMA office on Staten Island closed on Wednesday.
Sign on door said- Closed Today Due To Weather.

Hahahahaha.


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## Paul Mc (Nov 8, 2012)

Classic!!!


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## TyroneGenade (Nov 9, 2012)

cnycharles said:


> ...the disaster agency can't hold everyone's hand and force them to do what is sanitary.. though I have no ties to any federal group disaster agency, people can only be given the information and have to act accordingly. there are many relief agencies trying to help out, many non-governmental, and they can assist but only can help when they have enough donations and man and woman power...



My cousin once told me that he pays tax to the government to help the poor---or something to that effect. A friend said he shouldn't pay tax because he gives to charity... To my mind they are both wrong. Government can't care for the poor for the simple reason that is doesn't have heart. Tax money is for heartless things like roads, unprofitable but needed public infrastructure etc... I pay my tax for these things and get irate when I see some politician riding a way with a million Rand BMW after using my tax money to buy the vote of some women churning out children to collect the government child grant.  I joined Rotary because its *my *job to help those kids where their mother can't. (If government was doing its job by building roads, instituting the rule of law and facilitating commerce instead of hindering it maybe that woman would have job?*) Public perceptions about tax and charity are totally insane.

My gripe with the handling of Sandy is this: why can the US military be so effective delivering clean water, food, shelter and sanitation to people on the other side of the world after the Dec 26 2004 earthquake but FEMA can't sort out its own back-yard? Disaster relief is about providing that which people, in their private capacity (for whatever reason), can't. From what I understand FEMA has the power to institute marshal law, but it doesn't have the power to deliver clean water and soap? That bugs the hell out of me. The people of NY and NJ suffer needlessly for the want of good leader.

No doubt after the dust has settled there will be appeals for more money to FEMA etc... when what is needed is more good people. Mao wrote that in war guns are important but people are decisive. This is a truth which applies to all situations.

It doesn't matter how much money is spent, you can't do good work with bad people.

* To be clear, I don't think people should sit on their bums and wait for government to fly in and rescue them by building a road. A village in India got so frustrating waiting for the government to build a road that they eventually built the road themselves to get their good to market. People don't need government to hold their hands, they can do it themselves---if they want to.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 9, 2012)

Tyrone- one of the criticisms I've seen about how Mayor Bloomberg and Gov. Cuomo handled Sandy is that they never called for the National Guard, and just relied on an overstressed police force, many of whom had damaged or destroyed homes themselves. As I said, it had been predicted that a big storm would flood the lower areas of the city, but, historically, even though we have had far more powerful hurricanes hit (the one in 1938 rearranged the south shore barrier islands, creating the Shinnecock Inlet), nothing this destructive has ever hit NYC and the whole region before. Nothing. And again....while this was big, in size (800+miles across), it still wasn't THE BIG ONE, not by a long shot.


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## gnathaniel (Nov 10, 2012)

TyroneGenade said:


> The weather? Oh... that's politics again.



Weather is the subject of politics because industrialists seek to convince us that only the immediately attributable and monetarily quantifiable consequences of their actions are relevant to the national, and human, interest. As science (including economics, which can in fact quantify many possible, likely, and actual consequences of shifting climates) is largely uncaring and erosive of such fictions, the recent means of defending short-term profits for the wealthy in exchange for longer-term social and economic destruction has been attacks on science by people utterly uncaring of empirical truth. 



> FYI: I am thrilled with the election outcome. This means more US investors fleeing to developing countries like South Africa. I see already the $ is taking a knock as the smart money flees. Bad news for all my unemployed and struggling friends in the US though.



I'm also thrilled, but don't get *too* excited about capital flight! I think it's fair to say that any money pulled out of the US and sent to S.A. based solely on the election results is by definition not 'smart.' Hopefully loss of that kind of money will help trim some of the greed and bloat from the US economy, but I fear things won't be as positive for those countries where it ends up... oke:


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## SlipperFan (Nov 10, 2012)

Well said.


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## NYEric (Nov 11, 2012)

The big tree that came down at our bldg.


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## TyroneGenade (Nov 12, 2012)

gnathaniel said:


> ...but I fear things won't be as positive for those countries where it ends up... oke:



Indeed. Massive capital investment in developing economies results in 1st world problems among 3rd world infrastructure. Over the last 10 years we have seen massive development with foreign investment with a massive increase in the middle class. This has cause massive inflation in consumer goods and real estate. Increases in consumer goods (i.e. food and clothes etc) have been met by the unions by massive wage demands (which they normally get) which has resulted in a contraction of industry. This has swelled the ranks of the poverty stricken. Things are rather precarious right now in South Africa. The poor see our beloved leaders sporting luxuries and are justifiably upset, but their response has been to demand their "fair" share (of other peoples' hard earned money) rather than demand the heads of the corrupt. But such is life. Its the same everywhere. But that capital infusion will create work here which is badly needed, and a few more 100 people who have work is better than those few 100 people being destitute.

Gnathaniel, you better hope whoever is managing your pension fund is investing your money off-shore. The only way the USA is going to dig itself out of its massive debt (250k per family on last guess) is currency devaluation. With a shrinking "young" population, and minimum wage which makes manufacturing uncompetitive, there is no way the USA can grow its economy fast enough to cover the interest let alone pay the debt back if the US$ remains as it is. A lot of commentators are referring back to FDR and the economic recovery which was supposedly because of the New Deal. This idea is crushed by John Kenneth Galbraith by his account of the dramatic economic turn around after WWII (recorded in the The World at War---a really good read!). He explained the economic turn around as being due to personal savings. During the war, the US government paid workers to make arms etc... but there was nothing for them to buy (other than food) so they saved the money (buying war bonds etc...). After the war there were again things to buy and lots of money to spend and invest. Today the average US citizen doesn't have any savings (much like the average South Africa), so there is no capital for investment and every $1 spent by credit costs $1.10 (or there about) to buy from China. Same story for the Reagan boom except people suddenly had money in their pocket because the Gov hadn't taken it as tax.

Eric, sad about the tree :sob: but trying to photograph some of those beautiful NY building was a pain for all the trees... So, on the brighter side, NYC is now a lot more photogenic.


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