# Paphs in orchiata



## Roth (Jul 24, 2011)

I have been using orchiata for a while, and nowadays, after having tried some mixes with pumice, and the like, I settled for pure orchiata, in various grades. I add some extra lime for some paphs, nutricote eventually for the heavy feeders, and let's go.

Here is a new hangianum, potted end of march. The root system is so impressive that again I am forced to repot right now.












One more plant here:





And that's a good illustration too that when you know how to grow plants not from seed, they grow well :evil:

Now, I will present, first time ever, the number 1 killer of wild collected paphs:





On paph thaianum :evil::evil::evil:

It has been treated with the proper insecticide (aldicarb that time). You can see on the left leaf on the new growth a 'band'. This is the insect that ate everything in the crown. If it was not treated, this band would still be in the crown, the plant stunted, the flower spike (yes there is one in the crown ) aborted, and the plant killed in the next few months. For some species, ALL the wild plant have this pest.


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## paphioboy (Jul 24, 2011)

Interesting post, roth.... Do you repot the hangianum so fast? It hasn't formed a solid root ball yet... I would think that it is more economical to leave it for longer particularly as this is good bark and doesn't break down as fast...(?)


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## Roth (Jul 24, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> Interesting post, roth.... Do you repot the hangianum so fast? It hasn't formed a solid root ball yet... I would think that it is more economical to leave it for longer particularly as this is good bark and doesn't break down as fast...(?)



For some species like hangianum and rothschildianum, when the plants have no more space to get their roots running, they stop growing... So far I did not choose the proper pot size for the hangianum, so I repot in bigger ones


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## paphioboy (Jul 24, 2011)

Roth said:


> For some species like hangianum and rothschildianum, when the plants have no more space to get their roots running, they stop growing...



"When they have no more space to get the roots running?" That's a bit odd. Don't many people grow roths in small pots so that the roots wind up round and round within the pots? Many multis do that I believe. Not sure about hangianum...


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## Roth (Jul 24, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> "When they have no more space to get the roots running?" That's a bit odd. Don't many people grow roths in small pots so that the roots wind up round and round within the pots? Many multis do that I believe. Not sure about hangianum...



Yes, and it's a mistake. The Tonkins and Norris Powell grew their plant in huge pots, that's how they got the CCM and their awards... as long as the roots had space to extend.

Terry Root repots every 6 months, breaking some old roots at the repotting and new roots will appear. Growing root tips and very long hairy roots is the secret to grow those plants very fast.


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## Brian Monk (Jul 24, 2011)

I have always been told that deep pots are better than big pots (though I grow in large Cymbidim pots). Will any large pot do?


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## paphioboy (Jul 24, 2011)

Roth said:


> Yes, and it's a mistake. The Tonkins and Norris Powell grew their plant in huge pots, that's how they got the CCM and their awards... as long as the roots had space to extend.
> 
> Terry Root repots every 6 months, breaking some old roots at the repotting and new roots will appear. Growing root tips and very long hairy roots is the secret to grow those plants very fast.



Interesting. Now I know what to do with my multies... Thanks for the tip.


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## Roth (Jul 27, 2011)

Brian Monk said:


> I have always been told that deep pots are better than big pots (though I grow in large Cymbidim pots). Will any large pot do?



For multis yes, in fact I perfer large pots and not too deep. The Japanese use very deep pots, not very wide, but they have a complete set of parameters to grow their plants ( that's how they get massive multis actually, but there are many growing trics that go along, or you never succeed...).

A deep pot will stay wet/humid longer at its bottom than a wide pot. I do not like wet pots at their bottom, because it can become anaerobic quickly, and cause the root demises if you water a lot ( I do water a lot). On the other side, if you do not like to water too much (and are not scared by root rot coming from anaerobic decomposition, which lowers the pH like hell...), deep narrower pots will do just as fine. The trick is to keep the roots active, and free running. Last thing, even with Orchiata, when the roots are plentiful in a small pot, the pressure increases, and the new roots cannot grow freely when they have filled all the empty spaces...


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## biothanasis (Jul 27, 2011)

Very nice tips Roth... Thanks!


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## Heather (Jul 27, 2011)

So, do we have a name for the nasty pest that causes this destruction?


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## Paphman910 (Jul 27, 2011)

What are your condition like to grow in Orchiata? Sounds like you are promoting this product! Do you have a distributor in Canada?

Paphman910


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## Pete (Jul 27, 2011)

i wouldnt want my paph to make a full on "root ball" but rather just develop plentiful roots that have reached all over the pot. i think if you wait until there is a really intense/woven root ball, youve waited too long


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## Pete (Jul 27, 2011)

btw im with xavier. aside from the things i grow in sphagnum, i grow my entire collection in some type of orchiata mix and have had excellent success. it lasts forever too.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jul 27, 2011)

Aren't the conditions relative to climate? Xavier grows his paphs in Vietnam. Here in the eastern US, where paphs must be grown inside much of the year, I would think that tall, deep pots are preferable...for the very same reasons that they are less preferable in the tropics.


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## Roth (Jul 28, 2011)

Paphman910 said:


> What are your condition like to grow in Orchiata? Sounds like you are promoting this product! Do you have a distributor in Canada?
> 
> Paphman910



Mmmh... I ll ask for that. So far for the conditions, the Tokyo Orchid Nursery uses it as well, as many of the japanese nurseries, so that's US style conditions. I grow under shadecloth in Vietnam in the lowlands with high temperatures and very high humidity, and I have another nursery in the highlands with cool temperatures, and even a cooled greenhouse over there for really cold plants. So far it works in all conditions. That's why I promote it ( and I work for them as their technical expert too  but that was a consequence of their product being really excellent...)



Heather said:


> So, do we have a name for the nasty pest that causes this destruction?



Some people say it's a thrips larvae, and in fact it looks like... We see occasionally some thrips-like insects flying in nurseries that did not use a carbamate insecticide. For me I never waited to get adults, I always treat everything that comes in.

In Indonesia this delight is replaced by something else, most of the paphiopedilum mastersianum, gigantifolium, intaniae, and a lot of the others Sulawesi/PNG species comes with brevipalpus... though it should not be a native of those areas. But even freshly collected plants have a few. In the wild, apparently it is not a very heavy threat, but in cultivation it attacks pretty much all...


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## Ray (Jul 28, 2011)

It is mostly a combination of bacteria and fungi that break down bark, Yeah, insect larvae do too, but more on a limited "macro" level, not to the extent done by microorganisms.

You all know my preference for semi-hydroponics (and I still have all of my slippers growing that way), but I have to tell you that Orchiata is one amazing bark. Plants I have been put in it take to it like mad, growing roots like they were just discovering how.

The stuff is aged and treated with dolomite solution, so provides a lot of Mg and Ca - it supposedly stabilizes the pH too. Some of the material I get is wet in the bag, and there is a limited amount of mold growing in it, but Pacific Wide says it's a _penicillium_ species that actually helps prevent other molds from growing.

Paphman910 - No distribution in Canada. Your government thinks it is protecting your own forest industries, so won't allow it in.


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## labskaus (Jul 29, 2011)

This is an academic discussion for the European members, since the product is not available in Europe, too


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## Mathias (Jul 29, 2011)

labskaus said:


> This is an academic discussion for the European members, since the product is not available in Europe, too



Too bad, isn´t it!  I had mail contact with Besgrow who produces Orchiata and apparently the product would need to be heat treated in order to be allowed into Europe.


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## Shiva (Jul 29, 2011)

Mathias said:


> Too bad, isn´t it!  I had mail contact with Besgrow who produces Orchiata and apparently the product would need to be heat treated in order to be allowed into Europe.



Same thing in Canada.


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## Shiva (Jul 29, 2011)

Roth said:


> Yes, and it's a mistake. The Tonkins and Norris Powell grew their plant in huge pots, that's how they got the CCM and their awards... as long as the roots had space to extend.
> 
> Terry Root repots every 6 months, breaking some old roots at the repotting and new roots will appear. Growing root tips and very long hairy roots is the secret to grow those plants very fast.



I've heard it all before. I heard experts claim that paphs should be grown in the smallest, deepest pots possible. I've heard about all kinds of miracle fertilizers and potting mixes. There were even ''scientific'' experiments to prove one thing or another, and always done on a very small scale, scientifically insignificant, and never ever reproduced by others. In the end, what's important is what works for you, in your climate, in your house or your greenhouse, and depending on the time you have to take care of the plants. And whatever you do, there's always a number of plants that end up on the trash pile.
To me, observation on how your plants adapt to your situation is the most important factor, but it's a long learning process.


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## labskaus (Jul 29, 2011)

Mathias said:


> Too bad, isn´t it!  I had mail contact with Besgrow who produces Orchiata and apparently the product would need to be heat treated in order to be allowed into Europe.



Very sensible approach of the authorities. The worst thing that could happen to European agriculture is that the Kiwis reintroduce the pests we brought to them in the past 150 years.


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## Ernie (Jul 29, 2011)

Shiva said:


> I've heard it all before. I heard experts claim that paphs should be grown in the smallest, deepest pots possible. I've heard about all kinds of miracle fertilizers and potting mixes. There were even ''scientific'' experiments to prove one thing or another, and always done on a very small scale, scientifically insignificant, and never ever reproduced by others. In the end, what's important is what works for you, in your climate, in your house or your greenhouse, and depending on the time you have to take care of the plants. And whatever you do, there's always a number of plants that end up on the trash pile.
> To me, observation on how your plants adapt to your situation is the most important factor, but it's a long learning process.



Spot on, Shiva.


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## Paphman910 (Jul 29, 2011)

Roth said:


> ...
> ( *and I work for them as their technical expert too*  but that was a consequence of their product being really excellent...)
> ...



Are you the nerdy fellow with glasses pictured on Besgrow website!

oke:

Paphman910


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## Justin (Jul 29, 2011)

Shiva said:


> I've heard it all before. I heard experts claim that paphs should be grown in the smallest, deepest pots possible. I've heard about all kinds of miracle fertilizers and potting mixes. There were even ''scientific'' experiments to prove one thing or another, and always done on a very small scale, scientifically insignificant, and never ever reproduced by others. In the end, what's important is what works for you, in your climate, in your house or your greenhouse, and depending on the time you have to take care of the plants. And whatever you do, there's always a number of plants that end up on the trash pile.
> To me, observation on how your plants adapt to your situation is the most important factor, but it's a long learning process.



I have recently noticed that roth seedlings kept in 2" pots too long can get stunted and not grow as fast as they should. But I have lots of other cultural sins that might account for small growths...such as not watering frequently enough. I also grow under metal halide lamps, and I think this is a factor in having roth growths be too compact. I am thinking about switching one of my lights to HPS in hopes of getting larger growths. But I am able to bloom them pretty well under MH lamps so they are still pretty good.

In the meantime, I need to get around to potting up some of my plants that have waited too long.


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## chrismende (Aug 8, 2011)

A question re Orchiata - I've been using it for about a year now and like it very much. I had stored a couple bags of the coarse bark and needed to re-wet it, so soaked it overnight. Does the treatment material get floated off when I do that? I've kept the water to use on the plants, since my assumption is that it will contain a fair amount of calcium and magnesium and possibly mycorhyzae too.


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## gonewild (Aug 8, 2011)

If the treatment soaks off overnight then it is not a treatment that is going to make a difference anyway.


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## Ray (Aug 8, 2011)

I agree, Lance.

Being watered heavily and frequently does not seem to detract from it, so I doubt an overnight soak will do too much.


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## polyantha (Aug 14, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> "When they have no more space to get the roots running?" That's a bit odd. Don't many people grow roths in small pots so that the roots wind up round and round within the pots? Many multis do that I believe. Not sure about hangianum...


That's exacly what healthy multis do!


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## Kevin (Aug 14, 2011)

Ray said:


> Paphman910 - No distribution in Canada. Your government thinks it is protecting your own forest industries, so won't allow it in.



I would say fact. The U.S. has rules too. Our lumber has to be heat treated to be allowed into the U.S. Maybe no one is treating this bark? Even if it was heat treated, it's not the bark that would be a problem for our forest industries - it's the economy. 



Mathias said:


> Too bad, isn´t it!  I had mail contact with Besgrow who produces Orchiata and apparently the product would need to be heat treated in order to be allowed into Europe.





Shiva said:


> Same thing in Canada.


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## goldenrose (Aug 14, 2011)

What's the difference between Orchidata & Rexius? Rexius seems to claim the same attributes.


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## SlipperFan (Aug 14, 2011)

goldenrose said:


> What's the difference between Orchidata & Rexius? Rexius seems to claim the same attributes.



Rexius is heat-treated fir bark which needs to be soaked before using. Lasts for about a year.

Orchiata is from Monterey Pine in New Zealand. It is sun-aged, which supposedly seals it and makes it less permeable and so lasts longer (two years or so). Does not need to be soaked before using. I found the dust on it to be very thick, so I rinse it good before I use it.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Aug 14, 2011)

Rexius killed a large portion of my paph collection several years ago. It is very splintery and painful to use, and breaks down very quickly. That said, even as my paphs hated it, my phrags loved it.


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## Ray (Aug 15, 2011)

Rexius is fir bark that is steam-treated to extract resins that might be harmful to your plants. Of course, that also degrades it into something far less stable.

After the aging Dot mentioned, the Orchiata bark is sprayed with a dolomite solution, which they claim stabilizes the pH, and provides plenty of Ca and Mg.

Based upon my observation so far, I'd say a 2-year life span is an underestimate. I have heard some claim 10 years, but I really have to doubt that, if for no other reason that the stuff - if still intact - would be saturated with fertilizer and plant waste residues.

If I recall correctly, the containers entering the US are fumigated, not heat treated.


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## goldenrose (Aug 15, 2011)

Thanks guys!
Our OC has been using Rexius as the base, adding itty bitty lava pebbles & coarse perlite. I haven't found it to be splintery, I would call it seedling size & pretty uniform. There are some club members that soak, others do not & both are pleased with the results. I will be very disappointed if it only holds up a year, then it's not going to be worth the price difference, time will tell!
and need to locate some Orchidata & do my own test trials!


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## SlipperFan (Aug 15, 2011)

goldenrose said:


> ...
> and need to locate some Orchidata & do my own test trials!



Ray carries it.


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## Rick (Aug 17, 2011)

Ray said:


> After the aging Dot mentioned, the Orchiata bark is sprayed with a dolomite solution, which they claim stabilizes the pH, and provides plenty of Ca and Mg.



Sounds like a way of combating excess K from fertilizers.


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## cnycharles (Aug 18, 2011)

speaking of, I was wondering if using a seedling complete fertilizer like 13-2-13 mixed with calcium nitrate and/or alternating mixing with 20-10-10 would help to keep the potassium level down compared to the nitrogen? or just using the calcium nitrate by itself fairly often with whatever other fertilizer is being used would be helpful?


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## Rick (Aug 18, 2011)

cnycharles said:


> speaking of, I was wondering if using a seedling complete fertilizer like 13-2-13 mixed with calcium nitrate and/or alternating mixing with 20-10-10 would help to keep the potassium level down compared to the nitrogen? or just using the calcium nitrate by itself fairly often with whatever other fertilizer is being used would be helpful?



The MSU pure water fert mix I use is 12-6-13 w/Ca 7, and Mg 2 At recommended dose rate of 1/2 tsp/gal.

I presently use 1/4tsp of MSU, 1/4 tsp of Calcium nitrate, and 1/4 tsp of MgSO4. Also instead of "pure" RO water, I'm using about 10% of my well water to start out with very soft water with a hardness of ~30mg/L as CaCO3. I'd need to dig out my notes, but if memory is correct, the above combination, N should still be about 12 and phosphorous down to 3. But K is now about 6-7 with Ca around 14 and Mg around 6-7.

So your first notion of cutting the 13-2-13 with calcium nitrate is somewhat in line with what I'm doing, but I'd boost the Mg a bit too.

When the winter slows kick in, I'm thinking about just using a little calcium nitrate/mag sulfate until maybe late January, then maybe goose them with a shot of Protekt in Feb/March.

One thing that came up in one of the papers I found is the high levels of silicates in leaf litter (which often is higher than K, but less than Ca). The silicate levels in Protekt also exceeds the K (probably since potash is just burned up plant material anyway).


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## swamprad (Oct 19, 2011)

I am making the switch to orchiata. Went in with a group of friends in my society, and we are getting a pallet delivered this week. Xavier mentioned that he uses straight orchiata, no perlite or anything else. Many of the growers in Hawaii mix sponge rock with it. I would like to use straight orchiata, and would like to hear from others who use straight orchiata successfully. Also, I traditionally put styrofoam peanuts in the bottom of my medium and larger pots of cattleyas, but am considering not using peanuts with the orchiata. Comments?


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## Marc (Oct 19, 2011)

I can't comment on orchiata but I have enough troubles with keeping my media in my pot the first few waterings after repotting with new bark. Wouldn't styrofoam in the bottom increase the chance of substrate and perhaps the plant being pushed out when watering?


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## goldenrose (Oct 19, 2011)

why should it? Plant & media would be defying gravity! Do you wet the media or plant dry? If dry, I could see it being light it would float. I got some Orchidata from Ray when he offered his special, it's hard to describe, not what I expected, not as dry as Rexius but it's not moist either, I don't see where it's going to be any problem.


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## SlipperKing (Oct 21, 2011)

James in Hawaii pots in straight Orchidata and I always have excellent roots when I pull his plants out. 90% of the time there is moss growing on the top of his pots to.


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## Ray (Oct 21, 2011)

Rick said:


> The silicate levels in Protekt also exceeds the K (probably since potash is just burned up plant material anyway).


????????

The potash used in fertilizers is a mined mineral, with most coming out of Saskatchewan.

Pro-Tekt is a potassium silicate (K2SiO3) solution. Potassium makes up almost 51% of the molecular weight, while silicon is only 31%.


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## Rick (Oct 21, 2011)

Ray said:


> ????????
> 
> The potash used in fertilizers is a mined mineral, with most coming out of Saskatchewan.
> 
> Pro-Tekt is a potassium silicate (K2SiO3) solution. Potassium makes up almost 51% of the molecular weight, while silicon is only 31%.



http://www.dyna-gro.com/003.htm

They must be doing the math on silicate and not elemental silicon. They have silicon (as Silicates) at 7.8% and potassium (as K2O) at 3.7%

The term potash comes from the practice of soaking wood ashes in a pot of water. These days gardeners still often throw wood ashes into there gardens as "potash". True, present day commercial potash is mined from geologic deposits of potassium rich rock.

Just wondering though if coal is prehistoric mineralized plants, is "potash" mineralized, prehistoric wood ashes from giant forest fires?


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## fbrem (Oct 21, 2011)

I just picked up 2 pallets of Orchiata for our OS from Acadian wholesalers (I think) out of GA, great prices on that quantity, well under $20 per bag. The stuff looks awesome and I cant wait to get some plants in it to try it out


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## cnycharles (Oct 21, 2011)

maybe potash comes from seared plants after a land comet or asteroid strike? or trees etc hit by volcanic activity?


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## Rick (Oct 21, 2011)

cnycharles said:


> maybe potash comes from seared plants after a land comet or asteroid strike? or trees etc hit by volcanic activity?



Maybe? Seems like some of the deposits are kind of big for an asteroid strike. But after some of the fires we've seen in the last decade (started just by lightning strikes, I could imagine huge burning forests covered by volcanic ash as a mechanism.


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## cnycharles (Oct 21, 2011)

Rick said:


> Maybe? Seems like some of the deposits are kind of big for an asteroid strike.



 I was thinking big; maybe reading too many sci-fi disaster books  . I think i've heard that a comet or asteroid hit near the great lakes a while back (quite a while)


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## SlipperFan (Oct 21, 2011)

cnycharles said:


> I was thinking big; maybe reading too many sci-fi disaster books  . I think i've heard that a comet or asteroid hit near the great lakes a while back (quite a while)


Millions of years ago, so says my geographer husband, one hit north of Lake Huron in Ontario, Canada.


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## Rick (Oct 21, 2011)

cnycharles said:


> I think i've heard that a comet or asteroid hit near the great lakes a while back (quite a while)




Yeah I remember that one. That woke a lot of people all the way in LA when it hit.:rollhappy:
oke:oke:

Could be seriously. There is supposed to be some really good evidence still for the asteroid hit causing the end of the dino's.


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## cnycharles (Oct 21, 2011)

well, if you think about all the mastodons that died with green stuff in their mouths and their stomachs (and were frozen and perfectly preserved), there had to be some very large and fast event that killed them and buried them under lots of snow very quickly. I heard that at the archaeology meeting where they announced the mastodon finds, they actually served up mastodon meat (they had been pulled out of glaciers I think) at least that was the rumor


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Oct 21, 2011)

It was mammoths....and they fed it to the dogs because it wasn't fit for human consumption. But all those frozen mammoths died at different times. In many cases its because they fell into a crevasse and got trapped.


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## SlipperFan (Oct 22, 2011)

And mastadons & mammoths lived millions of years after the dinosaurs all died off. Except for birds.


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## SlipperKing (Oct 22, 2011)

cnycharles said:


> well, if you think about all the mastodons that died with green stuff in their mouths and their stomachs (and were frozen and perfectly preserved), there had to be some very large and fast event that killed them and buried them under lots of snow very quickly. I heard that at the archaeology meeting where they announced the mastodon finds, they actually served up mastodon meat (they had been pulled out of glaciers I think) at least that was the rumor





Eric Muehlbauer said:


> It was mammoths....and they fed it to the dogs because it wasn't fit for human consumption. But all those frozen mammoths died at different times. In many cases its because they fell into a crevasse and got trapped.





SlipperFan said:


> And mastadons & mammoths lived millions of years after the dinosaurs all died off. Except for birds.



What's this all got to do with growing in Orchiata?:rollhappy:


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## keithrs (Oct 23, 2011)

cnycharles said:


> well, if you think about all the mastodons that died with green stuff in their mouths and their stomachs (and were frozen and perfectly preserved), there had to be some very large and fast event that killed them and buried them under lots of snow very quickly. I heard that at the archaeology meeting where they announced the mastodon finds, they actually served up mastodon meat (they had been pulled out of glaciers I think) at least that was the rumor



Yoouuurrr Crazyoke:

Really?

Mastodon meat?

Really?


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## cnycharles (Oct 23, 2011)

SlipperKing said:


> What's this all got to do with growing in Orchiata?:rollhappy:



wellll, the orchiata could have been treated with calcium that originally came from mammoth bones (that were trapped in crevasses) 

yes, I had read in some magazine about the meeting and they 'served' wooly mammoth meat, and eric m. had heard/read it as well, except that they gave it to the dogs (it's not april 1st yet :rollhappy


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## Fawkes (Oct 24, 2011)

Roth said:


> Terry Root repots every 6 months.



I think this is a good idea in general. The stuff in the bottom half of the pot goes bad faster than we realize.


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## Rick (Oct 24, 2011)

Fawkes said:


> I think this is a good idea in general. The stuff in the bottom half of the pot goes bad faster than we realize.



That's why I've switched most of my paphs into baskets (started thread on this in Jan 2010).

But I'm also finding that "stale, bad, broke-down" mix is probably one that just has accumulated too much potassium (a whole separate set of threads).

Orchiata bark is enfused with Ca/Mg making it more resistant to ion exchange transfer of K.


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## SlipperFan (Oct 24, 2011)

Rick, I don't understand your last statement. What does that mean???


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## Rick (Oct 24, 2011)

SlipperFan said:


> Rick, I don't understand your last statement. What does that mean???



All the organic media we typically use, dead sphag, bark, CHC or coir, peat, will preferentially absorb mono valent cations (Na and K) and give up divalent cations (Mg/Ca). 

All of these natural plant/wood products have all of the NPK Ca/Mg in them already and as they break down will give these up. But the pores in these materials (that we prize as water holding systems like sponges) are charged to the point they also retain/exchange nutrients.

You may remember some of the old conversations from the Wellingtons about conditioning CHC with calcium nitrate and mag sulfate to drive out the Na/K retained in the pores. Actually it takes strong concentrations of Ca/Mg to drive out relatively weak concentrations of K since the affinity for the monovalents is so high. However, the system is easily reversible without consistent and high availabiltiy of Ca/Mg in the potting mix or irrigation water.

So every time you fertilize a little bit goes to the plants and a lot goes into the pores in the potting mix. The organic constituents preferentially(as do the plants themselves) keep the K and let the Ca/Mg pass through. So over time you end up with very high concentration of K in the plants and potting mixes. If you preload your mix with Ca/Mg (or "infuse the chips with Ca/Mg as for Orchiata) you can stretch the life of the mix with even fairly high K fertilizers. If you reduce the amount of K going to the plant and mix in the first place, you could probably run a mix to complete physical breakdown and still have the plants do good. How many orchids (let alone paphs) can you think of that have roots completely exposed to air? Stuck to the sides of trees or limestone cliffs (also note that limestones contain almost no K, so where do all those calciolus paphs get their K)? Remember some of the insitu pics of P sukhakulii growing on rotten logs? That's a dense material around those roots, but if that was in a pot we'd claim that it would die of root suffocation from a broken down mix. 

I guess just about everyone growing orchids in some type of organic media has observed "mix going bad, breaking down, going sour, salt build up........." and always looking for the "ultimate mix". The salt build up argument cracks me up when we look at species like exul and niveum that get spayed by ocean waves. That's a ton of salt compared to anything we water with, BUT these plants are growing on potassium free limestone, and getting watered, not only by rain, but by ocean water that inherently has several times more Mg and Ca than K. 

I have observed a commonality in all these symptoms of bad mix and fertilizing which relates back to excess K. It's kind of funny at this point since I've left a handful of paphs in old bark mixes, that a making new big gains in the same old rotten mix, and I've done this by getting the K way down and boosting Ca/Mg.

I used to have pretty poor longterm luck with adult Barbata types and paph seedlings in general in CHC. So I'm experimenting with a handfull of seedlings Barbata and Multis in CHC with the reduced K diet.


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## Pete (Oct 24, 2011)

orchiata is the best media for use with bark type substrates. period. ive had stuff last 7+ years without breaking down, in hot humid hawaii, constantly being watered.


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## SlipperFan (Oct 25, 2011)

@Rick -- I've been following your posts about Calcium, Magnesium & Potassium, I just didn't understand that last sentence. I think what you are saying is that, in orchiata bark, there is already so much Ca & Mg that additional K in fertilizer just, basically, passes through.

@Pete -- that's good to know. 

Thanks to both of you.


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## Rick (Oct 25, 2011)

SlipperFan said:


> @Rick -- I've been following your posts about Calcium, Magnesium & Potassium, I just didn't understand that last sentence. I think what you are saying is that, in orchiata bark, there is already so much Ca & Mg that additional K in fertilizer just, basically, passes through.
> 
> Thanks to both of you.



You're welcome.

That's pretty close to what I think is going on Dot.


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