# Death of a dream!



## Shiva (Oct 21, 2011)

I have been very busy lately taking out the plants from the greenhouse to the house and trying to sell many of them. Many more will probably die for lack of place in the house.

I simply can't afford to heat the greenhouse anymore. Way too expansive for me. All my efforts to conserve energy have been thwarted by the ever rising cost of heating, and it won't get any better in the future.

From now on, I plan to use the g/h to store hardy plants like rhododendrons, cyps, small trees, roses and so on. With a good covering of hay on the plants, I may be able to keep zone 6-7 plants alive for the winter without heating.

All intermediate temps plants are moving inside the house under high intensity lamps and fluorescents. At least the heat generated by the lamps will help heat the house.

Like the Borgs say in S-T. I will adapt! 
But not without some pain.


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## biothanasis (Oct 21, 2011)

This is sad actually. Isn't there any other way to heat the house? Focusing on hardy plants is a very good idea though!!

Good luck!!


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## eggshells (Oct 21, 2011)

That is unfortunate.. A greenhouse in our area isn't feasible too as we get harsh winters.. And heating a greenhouse in our winter is a sure way to go bankrupt.


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## Clark (Oct 21, 2011)

Do you have basement Michel?
And what fluorescents/bulbs will you be using?

I'm married to T-8's, and I like to peak over the neighbor's fence to see if the grass is greener.


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## goldenrose (Oct 21, 2011)

So sorry to hear that, hope you can work out something on the inside.


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## Shiva (Oct 21, 2011)

Clark said:


> Do you have basement Michel?
> And what fluorescents/bulbs will you be using?
> 
> I'm married to T-8's, and I like to peak over the neighbor's fence to see if the grass is greener.



No basement and none possible since I live in a seasonnaly flooded area.

I grow in a room 6 by 16 feet wide on the second floor. Which means I have to carry rain water up the stairs, sometimes several times a day. It helps for the exercice. I use two 1000 watts lamps, one metal and one sodium. I also have two 400 watts (same types) which I use three or four hours a day to keep light evenly spread out. The main lamps are turned on 14 hours a day at this time of year. There are two windows to help vent the room plus two large fans for air circulation, especially when the windows are shut for the winter.

I also have shelves with T8 for smaller plants like paphs in the next room. 
Not to mention an old pantry room next to the kitchen where I keep cold plants like masdevallias. More T8.

Several large plants are put up in the solarium for the winter until I find someone to buy them. If not, they'll eventuall be trashed. 

Finally, my Orchid Window where I keep some angracoids, paphs, phals an bulbophyllums.

As you can see, I do need to downsize!


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## Justin (Oct 21, 2011)

I grow a couple hundred orchids indoors under lights too, and it is definitely a lot of work to water etc. But i do love having the plants right there in the house to enjoy all the time.


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## cnycharles (Oct 21, 2011)

sorry to see... had you tried the large drums of water underneath the benches to help conserve heat? also heat blankets over the plants/under the roof?

I also suffer from 'indoor orchid' situations... would be much easier to use a hose like I do at work also spraying for things, but in my apt I have to catch all water underneath, use an aquarium pump to pump/drain back into a bucket and carry to the toilet. If you had a spot where you could use a portable pump and pump your rainwater upstairs through a garden hose, you could eliminate carrying upstairs (though I understand the need for exercise!  ) hope you can find homes for everything


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## Shiva (Oct 21, 2011)

cnycharles said:


> sorry to see... had you tried the large drums of water underneath the benches to help conserve heat? also heat blankets over the plants/under the roof?



I'm through trying to isolate the g/h better. As I said, every gain in efficiency I make is more than offset by the rising cost of propane and electricity. Despite everything I've done, it costs me more than $3500 heating the g/h last year.

I don't mind carrying rainwater upstairs. But when I run out, which happens in winter, I can use a hose plugged to municipal water. I have very large made to order pans to catch the water and it helps maintain humidity in the growing room.

My problem is how to find buyers for big plants. It seems everybody has the same problem these days: lack of space.


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## Dido (Oct 21, 2011)

big plants would be nice, have a big house but you are on the other side of the world. 
I can feel with you, had the same problems with energy. 
Changed now with heating on Solar pannels, on sunny days even at - 24 outside it helps to heat the house, reduced my consumption of oil I had from 5000 liter to under 2000 the last winter. 
No they have combined ones with heating the water and producing electric power.


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## cnycharles (Oct 21, 2011)

about lack of space for big plants- often orchid society members love having hands-on clinics and a repotting clinic with a divided-up large plant would fit the ticket! you could run an ad for orchid clubs (or even a garden club or botanical garden) for larger plants (just a thought)


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## quietaustralian (Oct 21, 2011)

I grow in two very different environments. In Australia my greenhouse is in an inland Mediterranean type climate with summer temps often over 40C and winter lows down to -4. 
A couple of years ago I installed an earth heat exchange system EHE(a fancy name for a buried pipe). I installed this system with the intention of using the cool earth at 3 metres deep to cool the greenhouse but have found that the almost constant temp coming from the EHE allows me to warm the greenhouse in Winter. With a completely insulated Southern side of the greenhouse and huge amount of thermal mass (6000 litres of water) I no longer need extra heating or cooling. In winter a fan draws air into the greenhouse and in summer a solar chimney draws in the cooling air. I understand that your winters are many times more extreme than mine but the same principle has been used in Alaska. The link below relates to a very basic system in a climate very similar to yours.

http://flashweb.com/blog/2008/09/earth-air-tubes.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-coupled_heat_exchanger


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## Shiva (Oct 21, 2011)

quietaustralian said:


> I grow in two very different environments. In Australia my greenhouse is in an inland Mediterranean type climate with summer temps often over 40C and winter lows down to -4.



Not practical here. The frost line goes down to one and a half meters and I live in a seasonnally flooded area. In winter, the temperature can go down to near -40°C. A trench deep enough and long enough to provide barely above freezing conditions inside the greenhouse would probably have to be very deep and very expansive to dig.

If I were to start all over, i would build an insulated type garage structure with a few windows and a normally insultated roof. And I would use HPS and HiD lamps to light and heat the place.


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## NYEric (Oct 21, 2011)

Sorry to read about this. Hopefully a local society can take some.


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## SlipperFan (Oct 21, 2011)

I am sad for you, Michel.


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## valenzino (Oct 22, 2011)

You can also save some electricity by using lamps like high output horticoltural fluorescents,like floramax,envirolite etc...i saved + o - 40 % with good results.

here is one of my growing areas.














Shiva said:


> No basement and none possible since I live in a seasonnaly flooded area.
> 
> I grow in a room 6 by 16 feet wide on the second floor. Which means I have to carry rain water up the stairs, sometimes several times a day. It helps for the exercice. I use two 1000 watts lamps, one metal and one sodium. I also have two 400 watts (same types) which I use three or four hours a day to keep light evenly spread out. The main lamps are turned on 14 hours a day at this time of year. There are two windows to help vent the room plus two large fans for air circulation, especially when the windows are shut for the winter.
> 
> ...


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## Hakone (Oct 22, 2011)

quietaustralian said:


> I grow in two very different environments. In Australia my greenhouse is in an inland Mediterranean type climate with summer temps often over 40C and winter lows down to -4.
> A couple of years ago I installed an earth heat exchange system EHE(a fancy name for a buried pipe). I installed this system with the intention of using the cool earth at 3 metres deep to cool the greenhouse but have found that the almost constant temp coming from the EHE allows me to warm the greenhouse in Winter. With a completely insulated Southern side of the greenhouse and huge amount of thermal mass (6000 litres of water) I no longer need extra heating or cooling. In winter a fan draws air into the greenhouse and in summer a solar chimney draws in the cooling air. I understand that your winters are many times more extreme than mine but the same principle has been used in Alaska. The link below relates to a very basic system in a climate very similar to yours.
> 
> http://flashweb.com/blog/2008/09/earth-air-tubes.html
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-coupled_heat_exchanger



Hello quietaustralian

in what state do you live ? Victoria or NSW ?


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## TyroneGenade (Oct 22, 2011)

What attempts are you making to store heat? Do you have large (sealed) barrels of water in the green house under the benches to hold heat? The problem with a big empty green house is that air doesn't hold warmth very well. Unless you fill the g/h with something with a high heat capacity (i.e. which can hold heat) the g/h very quickly bleeds heat. Also, if you haven't properly double-glazed the root and sides then the heat escapes all the faster. If you are using glass then the problem is all the worse as glass is an excellent conductor of heat. You want to be using polycarbonate or something similar with at least a 1 inch gap between the two sheets.


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## Shiva (Oct 22, 2011)

The glazing is polycarbonate on an aluminium frame, Tyrone, but I would have done better to construct my own wooden frame and bought the poly separately and put more space in between. I've learned a lot about greenhouse construction and if I could afford to build another one, it would be considerably better.


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## Wendy (Oct 22, 2011)

Shiva said:


> Not practical here. The frost line goes down to one and a half meters and I live in a seasonnally flooded area. In winter, the temperature can go down to near -40°C. A trench deep enough and long enough to provide barely above freezing conditions inside the greenhouse would probably have to be very deep and very expansive to dig.
> 
> If I were to start all over, i would build an insulated type garage structure with a few windows and a normally insultated roof. And I would use HPS and HiD lamps to light and heat the place.



My parents had a geothermal unit installed to heat their house. It was incredibly expensive but will pay off in the long run...for a house. I don't think I'd pay that price to heat a greenhouse though.

Your plan for an insulated garage type building is exactly what I want for my future 'greenhouse'. I think that's a great idea. :clap:

Best of luck with your plants Shiva. I recently downsized and am still in the process so I know how difficult it is.


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## NYEric (Oct 22, 2011)

Of course, if the next show in canada meet at has an inspector...


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## Shiva (Oct 22, 2011)

Maybe in three or four years of not heating the greenhouse, I may have saved just enough money to build such a structure on the actual fondation of the greenhouse. Or if I do sell my scifi book in english and get enough money, I could build myself a whole new house with integrated greenhouse. And I've got wild ideas...
Hope is eternal! Isn't it?


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## Shiva (Oct 22, 2011)

NYEric said:


> Of course, if the next show in canada meet at has an inspector...



The next show is that of the Eastern Canada Orchid Society which is this weekend in Montreal. Google ECOS show to get more information.

One more thing, my Phrag Achantal is in low bud. :drool:

I thought you'd like to know.


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## NYEric (Oct 22, 2011)

Oh. Very good. Hopefully it will have the crazy petals also. I am in orlando area, enjoy the show.


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## Kevin (Oct 22, 2011)

Sorry to hear about your situation, but I totally agree that is very expensive to run a greenhouse in our climate. I have been thinking about a greenhouse, but that issue is the problem. Cool that you are going to try using it for semi-hardy plants like Cyps, though. Would it be possible to turn the heat down so that you have it just above or just below freezing? Not sure how much money that would save. Then you might be able to have Vancouver-like temps in there and be able to grow all those types of plants. That's what I'd love to have. 

Geothermal I think works great, but it is very expensive, and best for a house, not just a greenhouse. If you had it for the house, maybe you could tap into it for the greenhouse too.


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## Candace (Oct 22, 2011)

I completely understand your problem and I'm sorry you're having to part with your plants. :<


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## Shiva (Oct 22, 2011)

Kevin said:


> Would it be possible to turn the heat down so that you have it just above or just below freezing? Then you might be able to have Vancouver-like temps in there and be able to grow all those types of plants. That's what I'd love to have./quote]
> 
> I've thought about that and with the propane tank full, I certainly will experiment with the idea. If I could keep the temperature just above freezing, it would open up a lot of possibilities for really cold growers.


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## Paph_LdyMacBeth (Oct 22, 2011)

Don't be too discouraged. Lots of crazy people err, I mean great growers grow and bloom many species indoors. It just takes a little creativity and dedication.


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## emydura (Oct 22, 2011)

Sorry to hear that. I can understand the heating costs problem. It is starting to cost me a bit and my conditions would be nowhere near as cold as yours.

David


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## Erythrone (Oct 22, 2011)

Sorry for you Shiva. But I am happy to read that it is not only the end of dream but also the beginning of a new adventure! Specially if you can keep the temperature of your greenhouse just above freezing.

Growing tropical plants in GH is really really really expensive in our climate. We must deal with very cold temperature for several months.

Here are some weather stats for Joliette, a city near St Barthelemy where Shiva lives. I think many or you will be surprised. 

http://www.meteomedia.com/statistics/CL7013362/caqc0221


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## Roth (Oct 22, 2011)

Erythrone said:


> Sorry for you Shiva. But I am happy to read that it is not only the end of dream but also the beginning of a new adventure! Specially if you can keep the temperature of your greenhouse just above freezing.
> 
> Growing tropical plants in GH is really really really expensive in our climate. We must deal with very cold temperature for several months.
> 
> ...



Not a nice weather... I used to have the same in Burgundy, but unlike Shiva with the flood risks, I could bury the greenhouse down to the tablets. This saves a lot of heating costs... On the other side, I am as well in Vietnam because I do not risk any deep freeze and I was fed up with the cold we could have in France.

The other option I have seen a couple of times is to cover the greenhouse during winter with very thick polystyrene or insulating materials, run a MH and HPS artificial light in it, some heater system and remove the cover when the weather is better... I even saw that on a commercial setup in the Netherlands, but it depends on your electricity costs...

And the thing that greenhouse manufacturers should learn, the aluminium frames, etc... make thermal bridges and it wastes a lot of heating cost.

As an aside, we humans are crazy indeed... People in cold weather try to grow hot growing plants, and in the hot weather, like Bangkok or Malaysia, they dream of tulips, roses, rhododendrons... They can spend in air cond and cooling systems to grow our cool growing local species what we spend on the heating to grow their local species...


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## Shiva (Oct 23, 2011)

Roth said:


> Not a nice weather...
> 
> As an aside, we humans are crazy indeed... People in cold weather try to grow hot growing plants, and in the hot weather, like Bangkok or Malaysia, they dream of tulips, roses, rhododendrons...



I don't think we humans are crazy. We're just hardwired to outdo nature. Our body was originally designed to live in Africa and now we cover every continent and every habitable islands in the world. We were never designed to fly, yet we've already found ways of going to the Moon and dream of going ever farther. With the appropriate tools, our eyes can now see from the infra red to the ultraviolet and x-rays. We have found ways to live confortably in the coldest and warmest climates. This hardwiring of our brain has made us the most adaptable species ever and also the most at risk from the very technology that supports us and has made our success. We constantly need challenges and soon, the ultimate challenge may be about our own survival. That's not crazy! That's what we are for better or for worst.


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## Marc (Oct 23, 2011)

Sad to hear that you have to give up your orchid greenhouse dream. For me it is still a dream that needs to come true, but I've made an agreement with myselve to grow on windowsills first for the coming years to be sure the interest remains.


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## John M (Oct 24, 2011)

I don't know how I missed this thread up until now. I just found it!

Ah, nuts! Michel, I hadn't realized that closing your greenhouse was something forced on you by the high cost. I'd just assumed that you were downsizing because you simply had way too many plants to care for and it made sense to keep growing indoors and not in the greenhouse. Now that I realize closing the greenhouse is not something that you wanted to do, I wish to express my sympathies. I'm sorry that you've had to come to this conclusion. The cost of heating fuel is so prohibitive nowadays. It's a big worry all the time and it takes up so much of our income!

I hope you do really well with the plants you're keeping and growing indoors. 'Looking forward to photos of new blooms produced under lights!


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## Bjorn (Oct 24, 2011)

That is an awful situation, however things can/could be done in order to reduce heating costs. The climatic conditions seems to be relatively similar to mine, and I have insulated my original aluminium house significantly. First: if you have a standard aluminium house, approx 50% of the heat-loss is through the aluminium ribs. I have improved my aluminium-house in the following way: Constructed an insulated wall up to hip-height (outside) and mounted an extra layer of twin-walled poly on walls and roof. The layer is outside the alu-ribs and thereby breaks the themal bridge. Also, when doing this all vents were removed and shut with poly. Ventilation is now done with fans and ducts, and since heat-pumps are installed for heating, these are reversed for cooling during summmer. Additionally to all this, a layer of twin walled poly was originally on the inside of the house. That was ripped away some years ago for half the house. So now Its four layer poly and six layer poly for half the house. The house is approx 7.5X3.5meters and half is heated to min 16C during winter, the other to min 8C. in the twenties during daytime. Some 3100W HPS(6x250W+4x400W) installed for light/heating. These runs for 10-11hours during winter and is responsible for much of the energy consumption (they are connected to a teperature control that turns them off if temperature gets too high). But all gets transformed to heat which is required when temperatures fall down below 15-20 below freezing (C). Total electricity consumption last year might have been between 10-15000 kWh which tranform to money of course. BUT that was without the extra layer on the roof, this was made this summer. Expect to reduce electricity consuption significantly, since the roof was leaking like h... On cold days you could see steam escaping from the house - now history I think.
Hope this may be of help to reduce heating bills. By the way; if you have lights, then insulation during parts of the winter could be improved even more by placing insulating blankets/mats on the outside. But much work so I do not do it.
Good luck to anyone trying these things.


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## Lycaste53 (Oct 25, 2011)

Dido said:


> big plants would be nice, have a big house but you are on the other side of the world.
> I can feel with you, had the same problems with energy.
> Changed now with heating on Solar pannels, on sunny days even at - 24 outside it helps to heat the house, reduced my consumption of oil I had from 5000 liter to under 2000 the last winter.
> No they have combined ones with heating the water and producing electric power.



May I ask you, how big is your big house (in sqm?) . And what is the Material?
5000L oil , that´s much! Which kind of solar panels are that? Do you produce electicity for your own or do you sell it to the community?


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