# Question about "flower size" for judging



## Drorchid (Sep 5, 2012)

I have a question regarding judging. Say if I am breeding for miniature teacup Paph's, how do judges judge those, especially regarding the size of the flowers? If I would be breeding them I would try to make the flowers as small as possible, but yet most judges when they look at flowers Bigger is Better! (so a flower that has wider petals, larger flower span etc gets more points compared to a plant that has smaller flowers). To me when you are looking at Teacup Paphs, a plant that has smaller flowers should get more points than a plant that has bigger flowers, as the goal of the breeder is to make the flowers as small as possible.

Robert


----------



## NYEric (Sep 6, 2012)

It should depend on the categories for judging. If there is a "Teacup" size category then the judges should not be looking for large blooms.


----------



## paphreek (Sep 6, 2012)

I think one way to approach this question is to look at standard Phals vs. multifloral Phals. The flowers are smaller on the multifloral, but more numerous. Perhaps "teacup" Paphs could also be judged on floriferousness as many mini Paphs form multiple growths and multiple blooms.


----------



## valenzino (Sep 6, 2012)

In my opinion is a matter of proportion...maybe "teacup Paphs" should have small plant and in proportion bigger flower possible...


----------



## eggshells (Sep 6, 2012)

valenzino said:


> In my opinion is a matter of proportion...maybe "teacup Paphs" should have small plant and in proportion bigger flower possible...



I agree with this. I think the best standard is getting the biggest flower size as well with shape and colour but the scale of the plant should also be considered. Getting the biggest blooms in small plants.


----------



## Rick (Sep 6, 2012)

For one thing size is a minority of the total score to slippers. Secondly this is a hybrid (of intent). If it is attractive enough as a miniture to get the judges attention to want to research the parents then being smaller than the parents could be considered a positive attribute.

I've seen judging groups work on a novel hybrid, and if it has enough wow factor to garner interest in the first place, then it's off to the parent pictures, with the biggest question "did this breeding improve any of the attributes of the parents". Size (either bigger or smaller) is not an issue in the first view of judging.


----------



## fibre (Sep 6, 2012)

valenzino said:


> In my opinion is a matter of proportion...maybe "teacup Paphs" should have small plant and in proportion bigger flower possible...



That's the point! 

IMO the flower shouldn't be as small as possible nor as big as possible. A big flower and small leaves looks like a watermelon on a bonsai


----------



## mormodes (Sep 6, 2012)

Drorchid said:


> I have a question regarding judging. Say if I am breeding for miniature teacup Paph's, how do judges judge those, especially regarding the size of the flowers? If I would be breeding them I would try to make the flowers as small as possible, but yet most judges when they look at flowers Bigger is Better! (so a flower that has wider petals, larger flower span etc gets more points compared to a plant that has smaller flowers). To me when you are looking at Teacup Paphs, a plant that has smaller flowers should get more points than a plant that has bigger flowers, as the goal of the breeder is to make the flowers as small as possible.
> 
> Robert



There's space on the entry form for exhibitor's comments. These comments are transferred to the coversheet so the judges will see them. You can say 'teacup paph breeding' if you think they won't recognize what they are looking at.

http://www.aos.org/images/img_content/PDFs/Judging_Entry_Form-2Up.pdf


----------



## Roy (Sep 6, 2012)

My thoughts, Quantity of plants on the show bench will be a factor. "Teacup" paphs are, from what I've read & seen, new & few on the showbench in the greater area. Once these plants are shown in greater numbers in more shows, more judges will become aware of them, the more recognition they will get. I agree with the plant size being equal in proportion to the flower size, this is a must imo. I think that once quantities of these plants start to appear, will (should) establish a standard by which these are to be judged. Maybe its worth breeders/growers of these Paphs write a submission to the AOS Judging Chair indicating their thoughts on the judging of them. Atleast it will draw attention to the issue.


----------



## emydura (Sep 6, 2012)

Roy said:


> My thoughts, Quantity of plants on the show bench will be a factor. "Teacup" paphs are, from what I've read & seen, new & few on the showbench in the greater area. Once these plants are shown in greater numbers in more shows, more judges will become aware of them, the more recognition they will get. I agree with the plant size being equal in proportion to the flower size, this is a must imo. I think that once quantities of these plants start to appear, will (should) establish a standard by which these are to be judged. Maybe its worth breeders/growers of these Paphs write a submission to the AOS Judging Chair indicating their thoughts on the judging of them. Atleast it will draw attention to the issue.



Roy - are teacup Paphs even recognised in Australia? I heard they weren't so they are not really able to be judged.


----------



## Roy (Sep 7, 2012)

I don't think they are recognise either. Our Judging system really doesn't allow for it. We don't (usually) take into account the parentage BUT given some of the awards granted recently, anything is possible. They can be judged but would have to be given a separate section on a schedule. A knowledge of the parents would be required, doubtful with many & for an award, the judges would have to consider how to judge them, big questions.


----------



## Roy (Sep 7, 2012)

Just thinking about this, at some time, a standard has to be drawn up as to maximum plant size, ie. leaf length, maybe pot size & flower size to fit into the catagory. With a standard on maximum sizes, it should take the guess work out of judging. I would think a list of acceptable parents for this catagory be made. I site this because its possible to use a genuine 'teacup' paphs & cross it with a large flowered paph & still get teacup flowers with better shape & more filled in but on larger plants in comparison. Doesn't fit the objective.


----------



## littlefrog (Sep 7, 2012)

We have awarded a few 'tea-cup' paphs in my center. And we've had a robust discussion about 'size' on at least one occasion.

Everybody has a different opinion, but in my opinion, size is 10 points. It doesn't say anything about bigger. Smaller, if that is hard to do and (importantly) desirable, is fine. I don't mind awarding small. I have an award to a phrag (Sorcerer's Apprentice) that was pulled for judging precisely because it was small. The plant was small, the flowers were about average, which is a net win!


----------



## mormodes (Sep 7, 2012)

If the exhibitor wants to s/he can bring in Koopowitz's Orchid Digest article on teacup paphs in support of the paph's teacup breeding lines in addition to comments on the entry form. Its reprinted in his Paph book. It goes back to type and breeding. Ascocendas are smaller than Euanthes and they get awards, multifloral Phals are smaller than standard Phals and they get awards. For that matter the standard for Paphs is based on bulldog paphs, yet multifloral and sequential bloomers get awards. Because type and breeding is taken into account. My point is: Don't be afraid to show your teacup paph. Heck, if I were you I'd bring in a ton of them so all the judges could see them, not just one team. For that matter offer the regional chair a presentation on teacups for their next business/education meeting. Nothing wrong with a little education. Nothing wrong with being proactive.


----------

