# Cymbidium goeringii (Japanese varieties-mid December 2020 update)



## jokerpass (Dec 19, 2020)

Cymbidium goeringii (mid Dec update)-A few people asked me about the flower buds since my last post. Here are the buds now in mid December. It has not grown much since my last post in the beginning of November (normal). The flower buds are all alive and they have grown a little bit but not much (normal). The flower bud colour is pale pink which indicates that they will most likely to have the correct colours when they bloom in the spring. Some of the buds, you can start to see the orange flower petals inside the buds. The vernalization treatment will start in about a few days or so and it lasts until the flowers bloom in the spring. During vernalization, the daily temperature is always between 0C-9C (no higher and no lower) with 50%-70% humidity at all times. Once vernalization starts, by mid January, the flower buds should become more fat and the flower stalks will start to elongate before they bloom at the end of Feb into March.


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## Ozpaph (Dec 19, 2020)

That's exciting; and complicated. Good luck.


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## jokerpass (Dec 19, 2020)

Yes, C. goeringii is very hard to grow . All the information in English is wrong, all the correct information is written in Chinese, Japanese, and Korean. I read a lot over the years and I compare and contrast all the information in these books and I digest and synthesize the information to be able to grow them in Toronto, Canada. Any detailed questions I have that are not written in the books, I email or call my Japanese Cymbidium Vendor directly. I have already optimized the growing conditions for all 4 seasons over the years (4 conditions, one condtion for each season), so they will all bloom in the spring. I have a very detailed protocol how to grow C. goeringii. I have 8 blooming size C. goeringii in my growing collection and 7 out 8 have flower buds. Total flower bud counts for this season is more than 25 flower buds.


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## PeteM (Dec 19, 2020)

Are you able to share your protocol please? I would really like to learn how to grow these. I have sent many to the grave.


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## jokerpass (Dec 19, 2020)

it is very complicated. One of the most important thing you need to grow and bloom C. goeringii well is to use the Asian Cymbidium Potting Mix (standard potting media for all East Asian Cymbidiums used in Asia, for C. goeringii, it is extremely important). It is a must, you cannot substitute. It is composed of 3 different types of materials: 1. Hard Kanuma (硬質鹿沼土), 2. Baked Akadama (焼き赤玉土), 3. Satsuma (薩摩土・さつま土). I purchased them in bags already mixed in a predetermined ratio. You need 3 sizes of this mix, Large, Medium, and Small. Bottom 10% of the pot, large size, 80% of the pot, Medium size, and top 10%, small size. Once they are grown in this potting mix, they just grow like any orchids. This potting mix is not available in North America (US/Canada), so I flew to Japan to get it.

Temperature requirement: Spring and Fall=intermediate temp (10C-17C), no higher and no lower. Summer temp warm to hot (25C-30C), no higher and no lower, Winter temp 0C-10C (no higher and no lower). So throughout the year, the temperature goes up/down in a stairwise manner.

Light requirement: morning sun only, in the height of the summer (July and August), extra shade is required.

Watering: you only water it when the pot is dry and it changes anywhere from every 6 days to every 14 days depending on the season. Only use slightly acidic water, and clean water (rain water, RO water, or distlled water from grocery store with low ppm). The time in the day when you can water the plant also matters. In the summer time, I only water after 7pm. In the winter time, I only water during the warmest time in the day.

Humidity: it is critical to have 50-70% humidity all year round, they hate low humidity.

Locations: I grow them outdoor from beginning of May to early November and in a cold room for the rest of the year. You want to grow them outdoor as much as possible.

The protocol is useless if you don't have the Asian potting mix because my protocol is based on this potting mix.


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## PeteM (Dec 19, 2020)

Thanks for this detail!


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## jokerpass (Dec 19, 2020)

It is more complicated than the information I provided. This is only how to grow them in general so you don't kill it, these are the basics. I didn't include how to bud and flower them (separate protocol). They bud in the middle of the summer (only on a mature growth, it takes 2 years for a growth to mature when grown properly), and will only bloom in next year spring, so there is a 6 months period from budding to flowering.


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## kitfox (Dec 19, 2020)

This reminds me of an old ”fish” story. Literally. Many of you probably have raised and maybe even bred discus in home aquaria. While not easy, it is practical as long as you keep a very few things right. But back in the 60’s and 70’s, it was considered almost impossible to breed them artificially. Well, Jack Wattley disagreed. Ignored the paradigm. And made discus available to any home that could provide modest care.









Cymbidium goeringii Early Riser


Cymbidium goeringii 'Early Riser' is our 2020 introduction of a Korean selection of the coveted hardy Asian orchid, Cymbidium goeringii. Looking more like a small clump of evergreen liriope than an orchid, the 8" tall flower spikes arise for us around Valentine's Day, each holding a single green...




www.plantdelights.com





C. goeringii grown in the ground. In NC, USA. Anyone want to see if we can convince Tony Avent to give us a slippertalk group discount?  As a disclaimer, though, Cypripedium acaule grows under pine trees on my farm, but it won’t grow in my garden in NC. 

And for those of you who don’t know, Mr. Avent is an amazing and highly respected horticulturist and plant adventurer who has traveled the world searching for and researching garden plants for conservatories and home gardeners. Anyone close to Raleigh, NC should visit his gardens, endowed to become part of the world-renowned JC Raulston Arboretum.


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## jokerpass (Dec 19, 2020)

If it is so easy, I rarely see any C. goeringii at any shows. At every single show, I have seen so many Asian Cymbidium been sold, including C. goeringii, and I have rarely ever see them again. Yes, in North Carolina, I think it is possible to grow them outdoor in the ground all year round. However, in Canada, it is not possible to do so. The ones I have are not wild type C. goeringii, these are special clones with coloured flowers. These are the ones you see them in picture books. I don't know Cymbidium goeringii "Early Riser". On the website, it says it is Korean origin. All the Korean C. goeringii that you see in books starts at least 2000-3000USD for 3 bulbs. This C. goeringii "Early Riser" looks like a wildt type C. goeringii to me. I struggled with C. goeringii for many many years and after I started following books and the instructions from Asian Cymbidium vendors, they grow and bloom like a regular orchid in cultivation.


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## kitfox (Dec 19, 2020)

Temperate-climate orchids have always eluded my skill and abilities for cultivation indoors. They just require that seasonal change that I have always failed to be able to provide. Seasonal temperatures, rainfall amounts and humidities are just way too many balls in the air for me to juggle. My hat is off to you for being able to make these THRIVE, which you obviously are. 

Do they go dormant and/or require sub-freezing temperatures to survive long-term?

edit...sorry, I missed you said down just to freezing, no lower. The link for ‘Early Riser’ says zone 7a hardiness, which means this cultivar can survive temps down to 0 deg F. His nursery is in 7b, which is down to 5 degrees. Just doesn’t sound possible...


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## jokerpass (Dec 19, 2020)

In the winter time, from mid December to mid February, they must go through a consistent just-above-freezing temperature (I mentioned above, between 0C-10C at all times (no higher and no lower). This kind of temperature is normal in Japan, Korea, and around Shanghai Region in China during this time of year. This is REQUIRED for the flower buds to bloom (they bud in the middle of the summer), the flower buds will only develop and flower successfully in this low temperature. If you don't give C. goeringii this kind of temperature in the winter, all the flower buds will abort (turn brown and die). This low temperature is also very important for vigorous new growths and roots in the spring. This is required for the health of the plant long term. If you don't provide the cold in the winter, it will decline.

Also, many people think that C. goeringii is a cold grower...it is not. In the summer, it requires "Asian Summer" conditions where the temperature goes above 30C consistently with high humidity. They need the warmth and humidity to thrive in the summer. This is also REQUIRED. East Asian Cymbidiums as I mentioned above, I grow them in my backyard outdoor in pots from beginning of May to beginning of November. I leave them outdoor as much as possible.

C. goeringii is "dormant" (no vegetative growth) when temperature goes below 10C but during this time, the flower buds are developing. 


When you follow the books and instructions from Japanese Cymbidium vendors, this is the results. This is the picture taken late fall 2020 before I bring C. goeringii indoor. Inside each aluminum tube is 1 flower bud.


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## kitfox (Dec 19, 2020)

Your passion is admirable! If I had to fly to Australia to get my orchidata, I would be growing African violets only!


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## jokerpass (Dec 19, 2020)

Unfortunately, this Asian Cymbidium Mix is not available in North America (US/Canada). Trust me, I looked everywhere locally and online. You can find something similiar but it is not exactly the right materials. I also tried to subsitute with other orchid potting materials over the years and they all failed miserably. This is the only potting mix that C. goeringii thrives in and they can grow and bloom like in Japan. I told myself that there must be a reason why they use this potting materials in China, Korea, and Japan........they are not expensive, the cost is about the same as a bag of bark you buy at any orchid shows, it is just very heavy to bring them back.


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## jokerpass (Dec 19, 2020)

My Japanese Cymbidium vendor told me that for C. goeringii, the lowest temperature it can go down to is minus 5C (-5C) = 23F. At this temperature, it is possible but only for a very short amount of time. To give you an idea, Tokyo rarely snows, so it means that in the winter time, it is just above 0C (above freezing).


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## PeteM (Dec 20, 2020)

kitfox said:


> This reminds me of an old ”fish” story. Literally. Many of you probably have raised and maybe even bred discus in home aquaria. While not easy, it is practical as long as you keep a very few things right. But back in the 60’s and 70’s, it was considered almost impossible to breed them artificially. Well, Jack Wattley disagreed. Ignored the paradigm. And made discus available to any home that could provide modest care.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Additionally, Tokyo Japan 35.6762° N, and Raleigh, NC 35.7796° N are very close in latitude and relative location along the eastern coastline of a major continent. The major ocean gyers provide similar environmental seasonal conditions / climate for these regions. By drawing a figure 8 in the north and South Pacific and Atlantic to trace these gyers.. Generally, you can extend this further and project that at these latitudes the east coast of every continent has humid tropical summers and the west coast of every continent is dry and arid / Mediterranean conditions.


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## mrhappyrotter (Dec 20, 2020)

I think I speak for a lot of us when I say that this information is much appreciated.

When it comes to C. goeringii, I've seen it growing outdoors in the gardens at Plant Delights (Tony Avent's business). It was a delight to see, though I've never been while the plant was actually in bloom. The employee I spoke to about it says it blooms every year, and while it's probably in a protected spot, it's been through winters with night lows down into the single digits (F).

Here's an aspect of C. goeringii that kind of gets glossed over -- it has a fairly wide natural distribution, and as such, there are lots of different varieties. I've even read and heard discussions that what we now consider C. goeringii may actually be several different species. As such, it's not surprising that these may be more adaptable than we think or that some varieties may not be as demanding to grow and bloom as we may think.

For instance, C. goeringii is the first Chinese Cymbidium I managed to grow and bloom successfully. I bought my goeringii fully anticipating that it would be a foliage plant, and with the expectation that after it got large enough I would attempt to grow a division of it outdoors since I'm in the same general geographic area and hardiness zone as Plant Delights. I grow my plant outdoors in the warmer months, keeping it fairly wet and fairly bright (but protected). When it starts to cool down, I keep it outdoors as long as the temperatures are above freezing. It does sometimes get minimal exposure to freezing temperatures, but I have not tried to test its cold hardiness. I basically spend November and December bringing it in on cold nights, taking it out when it warms back up. Once the weather gets to the point where it's more or less freezing every night, typically January, February, and part of March, I bring it indoors and grow it under lights with the rest of my orchids, where it gets typical indoor temperatures. It seems to grow and bloom fine with this care.

Now, my plant isn't a named variety, and I'm sure it's a 1990's Honda Civic compared to Jokerpass's Ferraris, but for me it's just dandy and the fact that I get to enjoy the wonderful fragrance is good enough for me. I suspect that there are at least some varieties that will grow and bloom without exacting temperature ranges and other fancy care. It reminds me of the late 90's when I was convinced that Phragmipediums were hard to grow and required exacting care and conditions for them to thrive, all based on literature I'd read and advice from experts of that time. As it turns out, most of them are basically the weeds of the orchid world that I absolutly adore, and I spent years avoiding them thinking I couldn't do it without access to distilled water and greenhouse conditions.


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## jokerpass (Dec 20, 2020)

There are different subspecies of Cymbidium goeirngii:

Cymbidium goeringii subsp. goeringii (the most hardy and requires the near freezing temperature to bloom). These are the ones found in Japan, Korean, and Shanghai region in China. This is the most northern distribution of this species. Cymbidium goeringii subsp. goeringii can only have one flower per stem. These ones, vernalization period in the winter time must be just above freezing to bloom.

Then the rest of the subspecies are found in further south in the Chinese Provinces of Sichuan, Yunnan, Guizhou, and Taiwan. The subspecies include:

Cymbidium goeringii subspecies longibrateatum
Cymbidium goeringii subspecies formosanum
Cymbidium goeringii subspecies gracillimum
Cymbidium goeringii subspecies tortisepalum
Cymbidium goeringii subspecies tortisepalum var. lianpan

These subspecies, most of them have more than one flowers per stem. Since they are naturually found in southern Chinese provinces and Taiwan, during vernalization in the winter time, a temperature around 10C (50F) will be enough to bloom. These ones are the "warm tolerant" C. goeringii that will be able to bloom at a higher winter temperature.

When you purchase C. goeringii, especially the named varieties/clones, often it is not clearly labelled unless you read Chinese and know the varieities inside/out as many varieites at Orchid shows are mislabelled.


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## Ray (Dec 20, 2020)

I'm going to disagree with the rigidity of the potting mix part of your recommendation. 

Some 20-25 years ago, I imported about 500 "Chinese" cymbidiums a month from Taiwan - sinense, ensifolium and goeringii. The grower had all of their plants in a mixture of tree fern chunks and pumice. They were watered frequently with spoiled milk in water. When I received them, they all went into semi-hydroponics and did great. In my PA greenhouse, I never had an issue blooming any of them.


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## jokerpass (Dec 20, 2020)

You can grow them in a mix of pumice (has to be right type/kind of pumice) and soft materials such as bark and tree fern. There are 2 ways to grow East Asian Cymbidiums, including C. goeringii, using the hard materials (The Japanese Cymbidium Mix) and the soft organic materials such bark, tree firm, peanuts shells, soil, decomposed tree liter. The soft materials, every one has their own formulation and to me, so there is no standard. Also, with soft materials, the pot remains wet for a longer period of time. It is more difficult to water. The hard materials (Japanese Cymbidium mix) is a standardized hard potting mix, it is easy to use and the pot doesn't get soaking wet when you water them. I have seen people use 50% pumice and 50% bark, and flower counts every year is poor if it blooms. Another guy I know in Canada has about 40 C. goeringii in his collection and this year, only 13 has buds. Out of the 13 pots that have buds, a majority of the buds are starting to abort. This guy has a very controlled set up just for C. goeringii and the set up is correct and I think his problem is the poting mix.


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## Linus_Cello (Dec 20, 2020)

Ray and mrgappypotter- where did you get your cyms from?


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## jokerpass (Dec 20, 2020)

Linus_Cello: It is not hard to get Chinese C. ensifolium, C. sinense, C. kanran, C. goeringii, and C. faberi from Taiwanese Vendors who come to the shows in North America every year pre-Covid. The only caveat is that 1. they are labelled in Chinese with English pingying, so if you want to know what variety it is, it maybe difficult to find out. 2. There are many mislabelled plants. when it blooms, it is not true to the variety. It is not hard to get them if you just want to have an East Asian Cymbidium.


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## mrhappyrotter (Dec 20, 2020)

Linus_Cello said:


> Ray and mrgappypotter- where did you get your cyms from?



I've got 2. One that blooms for me came from Orchid Trail (recently closed), but the original source was Ching Hua Orchids. The other is not fully mature / not fully recovered from its retail ordeal, came from Ebay, but was originally from Ten Shen Orchids if I recall correctly. This species comes up for sale on Ebay fairly regularly, though often the prices are well beyond what I'm willing to pay for a plant coming from someone other than a highly reputable and well-known vendor. There are also (or used to be) fairly inexpensive ones from Louisiana Orchid Connection.


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## Ray (Dec 20, 2020)

@Linus_Cello My supplier was East Sea Orchids. They went through some turmoil a while back, and while their website is still there, I think they're primarily focusing on the Asian market.


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## jokerpass (Dec 20, 2020)

Both Tenshin (just outside Taichung) and Chinghua (in Tainan) are Taiwanese Vendors. These 2 cities are middle and south part of the island which are too hot to grow Asian Cymbidiums, especially Chinghua. The temperature in Tainan is 25C-30C all year round so Chinghua grow all the dendrobiums and Cattelya very well. None of them grow their own East Asian Cymbidiums. I am from Taiwan and when they attended the shows here, I talked to them. They outsource their East Asian Cymbidiums from other vendors in Taiwan. Just like Japanese Cymbidium vendors, in Taiwan, Taiwanese vendors who grow East Asian Cymbidiums only grow East Asian Cymbidiums, nothing else. Since Taiwan is too hot (lowlands and cities), all the well known Asian Cymbidiums vendors have their nurseries in the mountains at higher elevation where the temperature is lower. In terms of price, C. ensifolium and C. sinense should cost you anywhere from 45-65 CDN which is a bit expensivie considering that it is only 3 bulbs. In Taiwan, you can purchase the same variety with 10-15 growths of the same plant for less than 30 CDN. C. goeringii is also anywhere from 45-65 CDN per 3 bulbs and this is as cheap as it gets. In Taiwan, the most expensive East Asian Cymbidiums is C. goeringii and the reason is because Taiwan is too way hot (the environment is not optimal to grow these) so they grow slower and requires more work to grow them. I am from Taiwan and I visit my mom regularly and every time I go back, I do a bit of market research, this market research was done more than 10 years ago. The price has not changed for the most common varieites.


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## Ray (Dec 20, 2020)

Big difference!

Buying wholesale, I paid $1.50-$2.50 for 3-bulb plants, delivered and in-spike.


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## jokerpass (Dec 20, 2020)

Yes, the price I mentioned is retail, not wholesale. The retail prices I mentioned above are blooming size plants, with a minimum of 6 bulbs, we are not comparing the same thing. The price you mention 3 bulb at $1.5-$2.5 wholesale makes sense because at retail, these would sell it for $8-$10 at retail in flower market in Taiwan. To grow and bloom them well (like the ones you see in Asia), East Asian Cymbidiums are high maintenance plants during growing cycle, it really needs extra care and attention during the growing season (from May to Nov) to acheive so. Unlike my other Western Orchids like Cattleya, Dendrobiums, and Paphs, I don't really pay too much attention, as long as you water, they bloom. I know the wholesale prices as well, but I don't mind paying retail price since I cannot buy that many plants, it is way too much plants to take care of. I don't buy 3 bulb plants anyway, most of these wholeplants are medium seedling at best and it will take at least 2-3 years before they become blooming size. It is possible to bloom an East Asian Cymbidium with 3 bulbs as long as they are grown with the correct potting mix and have the conditions and with a very good root system, in Taiwan, for C. ensifolium and C. sinense, it is possible. However, when you grow them under suboptimal conditions, they will take a long time before they rebloom. When I buy C. goeringii, I only purchase blooming size plants with a minimum of 6 bulbs with 2 leads mininum, so I can bloom them every year. Just a note, the size of C. goeringii is based on the conditions of the roots and # of leaves on the bulb, not on the number of growths. I have seen C. goeringii that have 6-8 growths and the vendor sells it as a medium seedling, indicating that the roots are still not very good to bloom. Also, buying retail from Japan, I get all the detailed instructions and coaching from my Japanese Cymbidium vendor anytime I have questions, I don't think these advice come as free, it is only fair, I think. Also, as I mentioned before, C. sinense and C. ensifolium in Taiwan are dirt cheap even in retail, even retail is not so much money. Chinese people don't like to share, so when I asked Taiwanese Cymbidium vendors (even I purchased from them) specific questions about how to culture them, they don't tell you exactly the methods and often vague, so there is very little customer service.


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## musaboru (Dec 24, 2020)

The sinensis types are easy. The single-flower goeringii types are, however, a different story.

Seed Engei also had sold goeringii and I wonder how they keep them in Santa Barbara. Winter low is probably 40 F for very short period of time there and it is very unlikely to get below 30 F for a 20 year low.


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## jokerpass (Dec 24, 2020)

Yes, the level of difficulty from the easiest to the hardest is C. ensifolium (easiest), C. sinense, C. kanran, C. goeringii, C. faberi (hardest). C.goeringii subspecies goeringii with one flower per stem (not othet subspecies with more than 1 flower per stem) is the most difficult out of all the C goeringii. The other type of C goeringii with more than 1 flower per stem are from southern china (high elevation) so they can be grown and bloom at a “higher “ temperature. In general, Chinese C goeringii (one flower per stem and more than one flower per stem) is the much more robust and easy to grow and bloom than Japanese and Korean C. goeringii, even in Japan where they are from, it is still more difficult than the Chinese varieties. C goeringii has very strict requirements and the conditions are not flexible if you want to grow and bloom them well. Seed Engei doesnt grow C goeringii, they outsource all the Cymbidiums (I know which vendor). Seed Engei gets them once a year in small quantity and it is usually sold out right away ( this is what I have been told), so they dont keep them for long. It is too hot in California to grow and bloom them properly as California doesnt have the winter conditions for them. I don't buy from them as I source my collection from Japan directly.

Just a note on C faberi, same culture requirements as C goeringii but they require a much longer vernalization time for the flower buds to bloom successfully in late spring. They also has very little pseudobulbs so you can pretend that they dont have pseudobulbs. So proper watering techniques and using the correct cymbidium mix are even more important than C goeringii


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