# When does alba/album cancel out color in hybrids?



## merc (Oct 7, 2022)

I was hoping someone could explain the if/when/how. For example, Hillsview has a couple brachy/parvi hybrids using album brachys and they explicitly say "we do not expect album for this cross". Whereas, QF recently cranked out a Wossner China Moon x delenatii album cross and from the pics I found the delenatii album was able to white-out the yellow from the Wossner China Moon. *How does a breeder know when the album will kick in?* I was eyeing a Dollgoldi x bellatulum album cross hoping the bellatulum album would cancel out the yellow from the Dollgoldi, but not sure if this is a total gamble since I have limited space and both Dollgoldi and bellatulum tend to get kind of big.


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## monocotman (Oct 7, 2022)

most of the time these sort of things are discovered by trial and error and by observing the progeny of similar crosses. Some albums are more recessive than others.


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## tnyr5 (Oct 7, 2022)

A geneticist (and if I'm misunderstanding any of this, I'd appreciate being corrected) will be able to answer the question in-depth, but in the most basic terms: it doesn't just matter that there's a mutation in a plants chromosome that affects pigment, it matters _where _on the chromosome it is, what type of mutation, and if the two mutations are compatible_. _The closest thing you'll get to a guarantee of recessive genes expressing themselves, when the first generation didn't work, is to sib-cross the heterozygous progeny. 
Dollgoldi x _bellatulum fma. album_ will not produce any pigment-reduced offspring because only the _bellatulum_ parent carries any recessive gene for color, as far as we know. There have been Dollgoldis made with _armeniacum fma. markii, _however, and a good breeder would have used that ( don't count on that being the case here unless they specifically said so.) Even if they did, it's still no guarantee that the plant you buy would be alba, in fact I'd say even the best-case scenario chances are slim. Considering that the cross will be tough to bloom to begin with, I'd pass on it if I were you.


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## tnyr5 (Oct 7, 2022)

Funnily enough, your best bet at making a Dollgoldi cross that would wipe the yellow would be to cross Dollgoldi to a standard pink _delenatii_.


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## eds (Oct 8, 2022)

tnyr5 said:


> A geneticist (and if I'm misunderstanding any of this, I'd appreciate being corrected) will be able to answer the question in-depth, but in the most basic terms: it doesn't just matter that there's a mutation in a plants chromosome that affects pigment, it matters _where _on the chromosome it is, what type of mutation, and if the two mutations are compatible_. _The closest thing you'll get to a guarantee of recessive genes expressing themselves, when the first generation didn't work, is to sib-cross the heterozygous progeny.
> Dollgoldi x _bellatulum fma. album_ will not produce any pigment-reduced offspring because only the _bellatulum_ parent carries any recessive gene for color, as far as we know. There have been Dollgoldis made with _armeniacum fma. markii, _however, and a good breeder would have used that ( don't count on that being the case here unless they specifically said so.) Even if they did, it's still no guarantee that the plant you buy would be alba, in fact I'd say even the best-case scenario chances are slim. Considering that the cross will be tough to bloom to begin with, I'd pass on it if I were you.


^ I agree.

The chances are two 'album' (in the widest sense) mutations from different species are unlikely to be the same mutation within the same gene.

We speak about having a gene for various characteristics but the reality is that you have a whole series of coding sections for a characteristic with genes for producing parts of the protein or coding for controlling expression or the assembly of the protein or various other things.

So even two 'genes' from very similar species that are all but identical can have mutations in different parts of the pigment expression that can lead to the same end result but in different ways. This can also happen in the same species if the mutation has arisen more than once.

Cross those two genes and you will get a normal phenotype in the F1 cross as each contributes a normal copy of the other's mutated gene but in the next generation (F2) you will get both mutations being expressed again and a percentage of the plants will express BOTH mutations in a homozygous way. Sometimes plants may not be able to survive with both mutations though which could skew your expected results off.

If they all survive evenly, 7/16 of the F2 would be expected to be album with 1/16 having both mutations as homozygous recessive. 

_If_ they are expressed as a recessive gene - they _could_ be dominant or co-dominant! Until you try the cross and flower them you won't know!


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## merc (Tuesday at 3:51 PM)

I went ahead and picked up a different brachy album cross with a hopefully smaller footprint - Paph God's Pearl from Orchidfix. I couldn't find pics of an actual bloom. Lehua lists it's parents as Paphiopedilum Deperle 'White King' x Paphiopedilum godefroyae fma album 'White Song'. It'll be interesting to see how the mutated album genes play out, if even. Paph Pearl Sussex-ish is what I have pictured in my head for the outcome.


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## big923cattleya (Tuesday at 9:59 PM)

An 'alba' does not necessarily mean pure white.
Look at the Paphiopedilum Maudiae albas, the first being awarded around the 1903 or so. The flowers are all green and white, yet when compared to the "colored" forms, green and white is considered and alba.
If you look at Cattleya, now Guarianthae, skinneri var. alba, that is a white flower with some varying degree of yellow in the throat. The yellow is permissible and the flower is still an alba form. But if you add some reddish burgundy, deep up in the throat, that means you have both yellow and purple in the flower, that in turn made it correctly, G. skinneri var. albescens, not alba.. I was at the Greater New York Orchid Society Show back in 1987, I think it was when Cattleya skinneri var. Debbie captured the coveted FCC! It was Waldor Orchids plant the description was a white flower with yellow in the throat. Later on it was discovered that deep up in the throat of Debbie, there was a bit of raspberry red that went by unnoticed. It was hard to see. If memory serves, that award description was changed to describe that flower as an albescens flower rather then an alba flower due to the presence of a third color.


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## silence882 (Tuesday at 10:43 PM)

This is a great question and the sort of thing I wish the great Paph breeders would write articles on. Basically, I want to know how and why they choose which crosses to make.

Unfortunately, Terry Root is out of the business and we lost Hadley Cash. But maybe someone could convince Paul Phillips to write up his breeding strategies for standard complex?

And maybe someone could coerce Sam Tsui to write up his strategies for roth and multifloral breeding.


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## merc (Tuesday at 11:22 PM)

silence882 said:


> This is a great question and the sort of thing I wish the great Paph breeders would write articles on. Basically, I want to know how and why they choose which crosses to make.
> 
> Unfortunately, Terry Root is out of the business and we lost Hadley Cash. But maybe someone could convince Paul Phillips to write up his breeding strategies for standard complex?
> 
> And maybe someone could coerce Sam Tsui to write up his strategies for roth and multifloral breeding.


@silence882 I love your site! I use it all the time when I to try to visualize (in my imagination) the outcome of a hybrid crossed with another hybrid. Thanks for putting that visual repository together and sharing with the rest of us!


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## big923cattleya (Wednesday at 6:47 AM)

You have kind of answered your own question in a sense, "How do all the great breeders know which crosses to make?" The answer is it comes from years and years of experience, both theirs and other breeders. Say for example you want to focus in on Paphiopedilum niveum hybrids and you want to focus on shape, the rounder and fuller that they are, the better the offspring's' flowers are. 
You have to go back into older hybrids and work your way forward and try to figure out along the way, which hybrid with what parentage produced better flowers. That information can be gathered from AOS records in a sense. you can see that niveum by this species produced "x" number of awards and you can determine size and shape, Niveum does dominate to a certain degree for shape. Then you make similar crosses hoping for similar results. It takes research, research and more research! These crosses that turn out to be dynamite crosses do not happen by crossing A with B and you hope to get lucky! There is so much more to it.
You also have to visit breeders and sit down and have a chat to determine their strategy. You have to get to know them. Whether or not they are willing to divulge those secrets is another story. But with time and research you eventually know that this form of niveum is a great breeder for producing large flowers. This other clone for pure white flowers, no spots whatsoever. And then this clone produces smaller flowers of heavy substance and multiple flowers per stem. Research and record keeping!!!


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## big923cattleya (Wednesday at 6:50 AM)

I am sorry but my previous post is just my take on what happens to produces great hybrids or award winning species. I hope I gave you some insight.


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