# K-Lite



## consettbay2003 (Sep 22, 2013)

I am currently using K-Lite at 1/8 to 1/4 tsp./gallon at every watering. Do I need to use any additional supplements for calcicolous paphs? If yes what is recommended and how often should it be used.


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## TyroneGenade (Sep 22, 2013)

The K-lite has Ca and Mg already in it. I don't think they need any more Ca and Mg. Having some dolomite (or the like) in the mix may be useful to keep the pH up but otherwise, I think the K-lite has all you need. Correct, Ray?


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## consettbay2003 (Sep 22, 2013)

What is the ideal ph for calcicolous paphs.


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## TyroneGenade (Sep 22, 2013)

I have no idea. Soil pH is a tricky thing to work out in any case. I think Ray is growing Brachies in his Agra mix and feeding K-lite with no problems.


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## Stone (Sep 22, 2013)

I would add a pinch of Ammonium sulphate.


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## Brabantia (Sep 23, 2013)

Just for my information: what is the pH of 1/4 tsp/gal K-Lite solution (in rain water) . All the mix of salts I prepared (to simulate K-Lite) have a pH around 5.2 at this total concentration of salts. Calcium nitrate and Magnesium nitrate are acid. I suppose you need to added some tap water or Potassium hydroxide solution (1 M ... which is the contrary of the goal we try to reach ... very low K).


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## Ray (Sep 23, 2013)

Your questions are way above my pay grade.

I have no idea if - scientifically - the K-Lite has "enough" Ca & Mg, as I don't know what "enough" is.

Yes, I have been feeding some brachies K-Lite at 50 ppm N - now reduced to 35 - and they seem to be doing well.

I checked the pH with a test strip at roughly 1/4 tsp/gal, and estimated something in the 5.2-5.3 area.


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## TyroneGenade (Sep 23, 2013)

I suppose if you are worried about pH, you can water alternately with water saturated with calcium carbonate (pH 9)? I'm watering/flushing with hard tap water so I doubt I will have pH issues.


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## Brabantia (Sep 23, 2013)

Ray said:


> I checked the pH with a test strip at roughly 1/4 tsp/gal, and estimated something in the 5.2-5.3 area.


And ... your are feeding your Paphs with this solution or are you adjusting it at a higher pH?


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## Brabantia (Sep 23, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> I'm watering/flushing with hard tap water so I doubt I will have pH issues.


No suppositions in science only measures .


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## Rick (Sep 23, 2013)

Calcereous orchids do not have aditional calcium needs compared to other orchids. They are more sensitive or K overdose (which inhibits calcium uptake).

I originally developed the low K concept primarily due to culture deficiencies I noted for my calcareous paphs even when lots of Ca was added to the potting mix or the irrigation water.

So K lite does not need more Ca added for calcerious orchids.

Actually supplementing additional Ca (via oyster shell or dolomite) is somewhat detrimental and may promote Mg and PO4 deficiencies.


I've been adding a very low dose of Magnesium sulfate and Magnesium phosphate (neutralizing magnesium hydroxide with phosphoric acid) and getting correction on "yellowing" plants that were thought to have nitrogen deficiency due to the low ammonia content.


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## TyroneGenade (Sep 23, 2013)

Hmmm... A good point about excess Ca causing deficiency. I may have to resort to watering with softer water. 

Given that pH germinating medium is set to 5ish (anyone pHed after autoclaving?) I doubt the pH mentioned for K lite would cause trouble.


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## Ray (Sep 23, 2013)

Brabantia said:


> And ... your are feeding your Paphs with this solution or are you adjusting it at a higher pH?


I make no adjustments whatsoever.


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## Rick (Sep 23, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> Hmmm... A good point about excess Ca causing deficiency. I may have to resort to watering with softer water.
> 
> Given that pH germinating medium is set to 5ish (anyone pHed after autoclaving?) I doubt the pH mentioned for K lite would cause trouble.



You can use softer water, or maybe just boost up the Mg and PO4 a touch.

There is a Dynagrow product ("bloom boost magpro") or something like that which is a comercial version of the solution I've been making from scratch. I does have a touch of N and K in it, but just use it very dilute if you think you need to add a touch of P.

The more you reduce N exposure/input to your potting mix, the more stable the pH will get without needing to add buffers.


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## Stone (Sep 23, 2013)

Rick said:


> > They are more sensitive or K overdose (which inhibits calcium uptake).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## limuhead (Sep 25, 2013)

Yes, I am also interested in the so called "K Overdose" theory. Any conclusive evidence or proof of K overdose would be greatly appreciated(with orchids, not other life forms).


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## TyroneGenade (Sep 26, 2013)

K-overdose could be experimentally verified.

You could fertilize some mericlones with 10-10-10 and then setup additional experimental groups of mericlones and fertilzes with increasing levels of K (10-10-20, 10-10-30 etc...) and see which group grows the best and which the worst. I think a weekly-weakly routine would be the most practical to avoid fertilizer burn.

Mericloned (diploid) Phals, Cyms or Catts would probably be the best experimental subjects, unless one uses different species of inbred Paphs.

If the K-toxicity hypothesis is valid then the low-K plants should do better long-term to the high-K. Just what constitutes high-K is a tricky question. But the main issues is whether there is K-toxicity at all.


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## Rick (Sep 26, 2013)

Stone said:


> Rick said:
> 
> 
> > Are you claiming this as a fact now? and no longer a theory?
> ...


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## Rick (Sep 26, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> K-overdose could be experimentally verified.
> 
> You could fertilize some mericlones with 10-10-10 and then setup additional experimental groups of mericlones and fertilzes with increasing levels of K (10-10-20, 10-10-30 etc...) and see which group grows the best and which the worst. I think a weekly-weakly routine would be the most practical to avoid fertilizer burn.
> 
> ...



We can't even decide what the definition of toxicity isoke: 

When I put the original article together I included a paper on K toxicity to rice grown hydroponically. Only hydroponic systems supply a constant known dose of K without confusing variables. 

You don't have to reinvent the wheel. You could dig up plenty of agr research on K toxicity. But to answer the question of calcioulus versus non calcioulus species tolerance you can't get there with mericloned hybrids. So you need a flask of something like hangianums or emersonia grown in hydroponic media with varying doses of K sulfate, next to a flask of something like calosum in the same hydroponic media over the same dose regime.


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## Rick (Sep 26, 2013)

There's a matter of logic to the notion of calciolous species having higher sensitivity to K.

Observation 1: Apparently for many growers calciolous species grow crappy under conventional growing protocols compared to the rest of their non-calciolous species. (otherwise no-one would be trying to fix them).

Observation 2: Speculation and hypothesis about the special needs of calcioulus species are developed to account for Observation 1.

Observation 3: The most obvious component of the environment of calcioulus species is the high amount of calcium available.

Observation 4: No matter how much Ca the majority of growers apply to their calciolous plants they still get lousy results.

So that's the basic set of observations for me to claim that calciolus plants are more sensitive to K than non-calciolous plants.


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## Stone (Sep 27, 2013)

Rick said:


> There's a matter of logic to the notion of calciolous species having higher sensitivity to K.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Stone (Sep 27, 2013)

Apologies consettbay for taking this thread in a different direction!!

Here's what I'm doing now to get around the repotting problem.
This is a vietnamense. It was in a 2.5 inch plastic pot. I have transfered it into a clay pot (about 5-1/2 inch diameter) The base has lots of vertical peices of broken clay pot and Leca. The mix is mainly leca with some large orchiata 20-25mm, charcoal and a sprinkle of course perlite. Topped off with finer bark and sphag. Its sits in another pot of plastic with sphag at the bottom which will be kept moist. This moisture is taken up by the clay pot and then the mix. The moisture content of the mix can be felt/seen on the outside of the clay pot. I'm trying this with viet, bellatulum, concolor, hang, niveum, godefroyae, thaianum.
The plant will be watered this way along with the occasional flush and feed. It is similar to SH but the roots are kept evenly moist but not always wet. When it begins to dry its just a matter of soaking the sphagnum.


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## Rick (Sep 27, 2013)

Could nit pick cause and effect all day long.

Ed M was working with a handful of vietnamense seedlings from the infamous Antec origin for several years.

90% of the growth ( and subsequent blooming) over the 8+ years he's had them started after going low K a couple years ago. No change in potting strategy, and he has always used oyster shell.

Henryanum is another "crack" dweller. These used to be slow for me or difficult to make into specimen plants. Now these are weeds that bloom less than 2 years out of flask regardless of the potting system and no use of supplemental calcareous materials in the potting mix.

Exul, stonei and supardii are a couple more species noted to be slow and often in direct contact with limestone. All easy and fast under low K compared to the good old days of MSU at 100ppm N and oystershell in the potting mix.

The other factor with regard to K exposure and replicating a "crack environment" with high levels of inorganic substrate is that K accumulation in the potting mix will be very low. So the primary K exposure is only during feeding with exposure time being very low. 

Kind of the effect I noticed with all my mounted orchids regardless of whether or not they came from limestone cliffs or trees.

http://www.ladyslipper.com/calsub.htm Here's an old laundary list of calcicolus paph species and recomendations. This predates the discovery of some of the Vietnamese cliff dwellers and some data (like for henryanum) does not appear accurate. But just goes to show the the "state of the art" with regard to calcium needs of slippers from 10 years ago.


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## TyroneGenade (Sep 27, 2013)

Rick said:


> You don't have to reinvent the wheel. You could dig up plenty of agr research on K toxicity.



The dose makes the poison, hey?

Very true but this isn't good science. Science demands that you test the hypothesis to confirm whether it is valid. Any scientific theory is only relevant to the conditions under which it was tested*. We need to know whether plants respond negatively to K under certain conditions.

Stone, your points about root growth are interesting. I was growing my thaianum in crushed brick and they had actually grown onto the rock. I can see how repotting can become an issue for them. Growing in S/H could be a way around the issue.

Again, a very rewarding thread. Every time we rake this subject over the coals we learn a little more.

* I have this conversation a lot with students who don't want to check whether the controls they borrowed from other experiments are actually relevant to the experiments they are doing. I'm yet to convince any to check but its the first thing I inquire to when I review papers.


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## gonewild (Sep 27, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> The dose makes the poison, hey?
> 
> Very true but this isn't good science.




It may not be good science but it is good horticulture.




> Science demands that you test the hypothesis to confirm whether it is valid.



Good horticulture demands trial and error and acceptance of positive visual results.


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## Ray (Sep 28, 2013)

When the MSU fertilizer was formulated - more than a decade ago - the addition of Ca and Mg in appreciable levels was one of the novel improvements.

OK, now I'm going to be totally "K-heretical":

Assuming that we use a fertilizer that is complete with all of the macros-, minors-, and trace elements, I think that as long as feeding is regular and at low doses, we will see improvements, no matter what the specific formula.

Yes, I'm still a proponent of low-potassium, but I think this is a parallel to low-calories being more important than low-fat, low carbs, etc.


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## AdamD (Feb 8, 2014)

I just got my first batch of k-lite in the mail (thanks Ray!). I had no idea it was coarse, like rock salt! Is this normal?


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## jeremyinsf (Feb 8, 2014)

AdamD said:


> I just got my first batch of k-lite in the mail (thanks Ray!). I had no idea it was coarse, like rock salt! Is this normal?



Yes.


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## consettbay2003 (Feb 8, 2014)

I suggest you blitz it in a coffee grinder.


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## ALToronto (Feb 8, 2014)

AdamD said:


> I just got my first batch of k-lite in the mail (thanks Ray!). I had no idea it was coarse, like rock salt! Is this normal?



This is why there have been so many posts about making concentrated K-Lite solutions.


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## papheteer (Feb 8, 2014)

consettbay2003 said:


> I suggest you blitz it in a coffee grinder.



It's the reason i got a coffee grinder!!


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## Jaljala (Feb 8, 2014)

I find that it dissolves very fast in warm water, I don't see a problem with the cristals...


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## ALToronto (Feb 8, 2014)

Jaljala said:


> I find that it dissolves very fast in warm water, I don't see a problem with the cristals...



The problem is not dissolution, it's an uneven distribution of nutrients.


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## Ray (Feb 9, 2014)

Correct, Alla.

Folks should keep in mind that the stuff is manufactured in an operation that caters to large scale horticultural operations that will likely utilize many bags at a time, so homogeneity is no issue.

I have looked into having the material dissolved and spray-dried, so we would have a very uniform prill, but I think folks would rather make up a concentrate than pay upwards of $15/lb.


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## AdamD (Feb 9, 2014)

I will invest in a grinder. Has anyone tried this fert on heavy feeders, i.e. catasetinae? I plan on it this growing season, just wondering if anyone had input as to appropriate N levels for these hungry plants. I have one that is already 10" tall that I am feeding MSU at 100 ppm N almost every feeding, and it was the first to bloom for me last spring (mid growth cycle). Hope to replicate this year.


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## Trithor (Feb 9, 2014)

I made a very simple tumbler. Takes a 20 litre paint tin which I put 10 kg of fertilizer in and a hand full of steel ball bearings. I leave it on over night and by morning the contents look like talcum powder. (Admittedly it is not K-lite, but it is our South African equivalent)


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## Rick (Feb 9, 2014)

AdamD said:


> I will invest in a grinder. Has anyone tried this fert on heavy feeders, i.e. catasetinae? I plan on it this growing season, just wondering if anyone had input as to appropriate N levels for these hungry plants. I have one that is already 10" tall that I am feeding MSU at 100 ppm N almost every feeding, and it was the first to bloom for me last spring (mid growth cycle). Hope to replicate this year.



I only have one Catesetum species that hasn't skipped a beat. I also have Vandas, Stanophea and Gongora. They are all growing well.

As far as another deciduous species that gets as big as Catesetum, I have a big pot of Calanthes vestista that hasn't skipped a beat for huge leaves and bloom spikes in the last 3 years.

This past summer I gave daily watering/feeding at about 5 ppm N with no signs of deficiency problems (actually the epiphytic stuff got even better). The Gongoras have grown excellently but I don't think they have bloomed as regularly. I can probably afford to give them a few shots of something like Protect or a little extra kelp to spry them up.


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## ALToronto (Feb 9, 2014)

Rick, when you feed at 5 ppm N, do you supplement with Ca and Mg from other sources, or do you use only K-Lite in pure water? I have tried using just a low concentration of K-Lite, but my plants started showing signs of Ca deficiency.


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