# C. walkeriana - Two Leaf Growths this Year



## Phred (Oct 5, 2020)

There has been discussion on whether or no a C. walkeriana is pure walkeriana if it produces a growth with two leaves. My opinion is that it’s environmental. I keep my walkers outside for the summer once the temps remain 45°F and up. This year was a very wet spring, summer and fall. I’ve attached pictures of several of my walkers that produced at least one growth with two leaves this year. I’m interested in what the group has to say.


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## Phred (Oct 5, 2020)




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## Phred (Oct 5, 2020)




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## Phred (Oct 5, 2020)




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## Ozpaph (Oct 5, 2020)

what a remarkable collection!
I suppose Fred Clarke is likely an expert and if he calls the 'SVO' varietals walkeriana, then they probably are. In fact, why dont you email Fred with the photos of the SVO clones and ask what he thinks.
Is it just watering or other environmental factors ie different fertilizers (kelp???) or chemicals.


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## monocotman (Oct 5, 2020)

Congratulations, they look super healthy!
should have some nice blooms from them.


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## Paphman910 (Oct 5, 2020)

Wow, nice collection of walkerianas. 

I was wondering the same thing a few weeks ago when I saw my Cattleya walkeriana alba 'Pendative" have 2 leaf on the newest growth with 2 new leads going this year. 

I saw a video of a fellow growing walkeriana in Texas and he said they could develop up to 3 leaves on a bulb.

The pseudobulb with the 2 leaves have fattest bulb compared to the other bulbs.


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## NYEric (Oct 5, 2020)

Nice thick leaves on those Paphs!


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## Guldal (Oct 5, 2020)

The fact that the same plant can carry 1 or 2 leaves on different growths of the same plant (as is also the case with the comparatively few plants of walkeriana, I have) speaks loads for your theory, Phred! 

Your collection is gorgeous, though! But as is so often the case with Leslie (DrLeslieEe), it triggers the most horrible ambivalence in me: on one hand I really want to see them all in bloom, on the other hand The Green Eyed Monster prevents me from writing it!


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## BrucherT (Oct 6, 2020)

Phred said:


> View attachment 22529
> View attachment 22530
> View attachment 22531


Fascinated that you grow in LECA. Plants are stunning. Could you give more details?


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## Phred (Oct 6, 2020)

BrucherT said:


> Fascinated that you grow in LECA. Plants are stunning. Could you give more details?


Hey BucherT
Happy to give you my thoughts on this. My choice of medium was the result of having trouble with the usual mediums used for walkers... bark mixes or mounted. I grow in the house. The temperature basically doesnt change... air conditioning in the summer and heat in the winter. The only thing that changes is the humidity. If the air conditioning or heat is on the humidity goes down. The range throughout the year is from 35%- 65% The result was that when the humidity was high the plants in bark stayed wet too long. When it was low the plants that were mounted... or in baskets dryed out too fast and I have too many plants to water every day. With hydroton, or something like it, my walker roots dry out right away but still recieve enough humidity from the water absorbed by the hydroton that I can water every 4 days or so. If I grew in a greenhouse I would have other options.


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## Teresa Koncolor (Oct 7, 2020)

Have the smaller variants bloomed for you? I have one c. walkeriana corulea x alba that came with 3 pseudobulbs, now has 6 but it's still small. I'm wondering how big it has to get to bloom


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## Phred (Oct 7, 2020)

Teresa Koncolor said:


> Have the smaller variants bloomed for you? I have one c. walkeriana corulea x alba that came with 3 pseudobulbs, now has 6 but it's still small. I'm wondering how big it has to get to bloom


Hello Theresa
I have about 100 different walkers. About 20 are seedlings and the rest are divisions from mature plants. There are basically two things that are important for a plant to bloom: first the plant has to be mature. Second you have to provide the right conditions. With Cattleya lighting intensity is a big one. I've had walkers bloom on 3-4 growth plants but they were mature growths.


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## Teresa Koncolor (Oct 7, 2020)

Thanks. It's growing well. I moved it to a higher light spot on my outdoor rack. I have it in pebbles in a net pot. I added some live moss top dressing recently to see if it helps anything.


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## Phred (Oct 7, 2020)

Teresa Koncolor said:


> Thanks. It's growing well. I moved it to a higher light spot on my outdoor rack. I have it in pebbles in a net pot. I added some live moss top dressing recently to see if it helps anything.


I wouldn't use the moss. walker roots need to dry out after watering


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## Ozpaph (Oct 7, 2020)

Paphman910 said:


> } was wondering the same thing a few weeks ago when I saw my Cattleya walkeriana alba 'Pendative" have 2 leaf on the newest growth with 2 new leads going this year.



'Pendentive' is probably not pure 'walkeriana', I understand. ie a hybrid.


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## Phred (Oct 7, 2020)

Ozpaph said:


> 'Pendentive' is probably not pure 'walkeriana', I understand. ie a hybrid.


Still controversial... 'Pendentive' is said to have come from the selfing of 'Orchidglad' others say not.


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## Paphman910 (Oct 8, 2020)

Ozpaph said:


> 'Pendentive' is probably not pure 'walkeriana', I understand. ie a hybrid.



The genetic report about Cattleya walkeriana var alba "Pendentive" was not conclusive from a post on orchidboard. It really doesn't matter if it is not pure walkeriana as the flowers are beautiful.

Also I saw this post somewhere on a website:

"Cattleya walkeriana 'Pendentive' has clearly been shown genetically to be a walkeriana. That work was done by Yukawa a number of years ago. His work looked very carefully at the sequencing of a large number of walkeriana cultivars and specimens that could be traced back to jungle collection. Pendentive is not, as was speculated, the result of a selfing of 'Orchidglade' but Jones & Scully never really said it was. What they indicated was that it might have but there was no definitive proof. In the sequencing study, Pendentive is very closely related to a white cultivar from Japan called, I believe, Sakura and is likely from a selfing of that cultivar or a sibbing with a sister seedling. Without question Pendentive is a walkeriana.

Kenny, on the other hand is clearly not a walkeriana but is of hybrid origin. It falls in the sequence between dolosa and walkeriana. It is also not a dolosa based on its position on the tree. The closest hybrid that makes sense is C. Snow Blind and as a result the AOS award record has been altered to reflect that. You will find the award to 'Kenny' listed as C. Snow Blind 'Kenny', FCC/AOS. The awards to Pendentive remain as C. walkeriana."


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## Stone (Oct 8, 2020)

Paphman910 said:


> The genetic report about Cattleya walkeriana var alba "Pendentive" was not conclusive from a post on orchidboard. It really doesn't matter if it is not pure walkeriana as the flowers are beautiful.
> 
> Also I saw this post somewhere on a website:
> 
> ...


That's interesting Paphman. I remain unconvinced. I trust the genetic sequencing as far as I can throw it. A few year back Xavier gave us some examples of supposed DNA relations between certain Paph species which were beyond ridiculous.!


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## Stone (Oct 8, 2020)

I have a wild form of walkeriana which never throws 2 leaves. I don't know what that means. It could be a subspecies or something. All my others can throw 2 leaves from time to time. With pendentive and it's children it is very common. At least 50/50 for me.


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## Guldal (Oct 8, 2020)

Stone, you provided me with the following link to an article, where Pendentive and Orchidglade by genetic sequencing were compared to certain walkerianas. Thank you! Although, not definitively conclusive, it was a stimulating read:


https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317003307_Genetic_diversity_between_native_and_improved_Cattleya_walkeriana_Gardner_famous_clones



I think, that those who argue for the position, that Pendentive more veers in the direction of 'x dolosa' (i.e. loddigesii x walkeriana) due to the hitherto available genetic findings, but also due to morphological analysis, have some strong points.

But, thank God, in these matters I'm not at botanist, but just a hobby grower, who can allow myself to enjoy the flowers of the plant, without laying awake at night tormented by the thoughts of its true taxonomix designation!


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## SouthPark (Oct 8, 2020)

Stone said:


> I have a wild form of walkeriana which never throws 2 leaves. I don't know what that means. It could be a subspecies or something. All my others can throw 2 leaves from time to time. With pendentive and it's children it is very common. At least 50/50 for me.



Hard to say what's happening there. Maybe it never will put up two leaves ...... or just hasn't yet put out two. Could still have a chance of putting out two in the future.

Sometimes we see young plants/seedlings of supposedly 'unifoliate' orchids put out two leaves ..... and not just seedlings will do that. Mature plants could do that too.


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## Phred (Oct 8, 2020)

Thanks guys for the discussion on this... it is of importance to me as I breed and hybridize. Because of that I attend judging. I'm working to resolving the issues of two leaves and blooming on a leafed growth because there are those that insist that plants with two leaf growths and blooming on leafed growths can not be walkers. I don't want to bring a plant to judging and have it screened because a judge believes my plant is not a walker.


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## SouthPark (Oct 8, 2020)

Phred said:


> blooming on a leafed growth because there are those that insist that plants with two leaf growths and blooming on leafed growths can not be walkers. I don't want to bring a plant to judging and have it screened because a judge believes my plant is not a walker.



Interesting topic phred! Do you mean you only take to judging the ones with all single leaves?


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## Phred (Oct 8, 2020)

SouthPark said:


> Interesting topic! Do you mean you only take to judging the ones with all single leaves?


An awarded parent provides a marketing benefit when selling seedlings. I don't just bring walkers with one leaf or with an old bloom spikes with leaves but I do worry about it.


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## SouthPark (Oct 8, 2020)

Phred said:


> An awarded parent provides a marketing benefit when selling seedlings. I don't just bring walkers with one leaf or with an old bloom spikes with leaves but I do worry about it.



One way to find out is to consult the 'authorities' .... like AOS .... to see what their view or stance is for this area. I don't think there is absolute certainty that some particular walkeriana will _always_ have a single leaf for every bulb. Maybe not enough very long term or long time observation of a particular kind of plant from enough people to draw solid conclusions on 'raw species' walkeriana unable to produce 2 leaves.


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## Phred (Oct 8, 2020)

SouthPark said:


> One way to find out is to consult the 'authorities' .... like AOS .... to see what their view or stance is for this area. I don't think there is absolute certainty that some particular walkeriana will _always_ have a single leaf for every bulb. Maybe not enough very long term or long time observation of a particular kind of plant from enough people to draw solid conclusions on 'raw species' walkeriana unable to produce 2 leaves.


I have but if you have ever had orchids judged before then you know there are judges that have their own views even if they're contrary to what AOS says. Examples like 'it's great but it only one growth and will be better when its older so bring it back next year', 'we don't give collateral awards' and 'there are too many of this species awarded and it wouldn't be special to recieve an award for it'... all stuff that's been said to me at a number of centers and AOS disagrees with all of these.


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## SouthPark (Oct 8, 2020)

Phred ----- if upstream AOS says in writing that any walkeriana will not be disadvantaged in judging due to some bulbs having 2 leaves, then that should be ok. Because if a judge tries to get you for it, then that judge should be investigated.


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## Phred (Oct 8, 2020)

Lol... you're correct but when you push an issue you run the risk of future problems at your local judging center. They view you as a problem.


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## SouthPark (Oct 8, 2020)

Phred said:


> Lol... you're correct but when you push an issue you run the risk of future problems at your local judging center. They view you as a problem.



I know what you mean Phred. But if there is a smart and strategic way to weed out or expose the corrupt or 'dodgy' judges, then it needs to be done.


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## Phred (Oct 8, 2020)

SouthPark said:


> I know what you mean Phred. But if there is a smart and strategic way to weed out or expose the corrupt or 'dodgy' judges, then it needs to be done.


I do agree...


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## Phred (Oct 8, 2020)

Does anyone know if ‘Pendentive’ has been selfed and what the results were?


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## Stone (Oct 8, 2020)

Phred said:


> Does anyone know if ‘Pendentive’ has been selfed and what the results were?


Yes I think ''Deborah'' is from a selfing. It is almost identical but not quite. Mine is more elongated than Pendentive.


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## Phred (Oct 8, 2020)

Stone said:


> Yes I think ''Deborah'' is from a selfing. It is almost identical but not quite. Mine is more elongated than Pendentive.


Hello Stone
You have ‘Deborah’? If ‘Pendentive’ is a hybrid I would assume the offspring from a selfing might show considerable variation. I wonder if anyone has looked at that?


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## DrLeslieEe (Oct 9, 2020)

Phred said:


> Lol... you're correct but when you push an issue you run the risk of future problems at your local judging center. They view you as a problem.


Fred, this is indeed an issue at the judging of species (AOS and international judging). So many judges have different experiences and will have their say. If a species is ever in doubt, it can be judged and sent to SITF (species identification task force at AOS HQ) or an experienced judge with a specialty in that genus will be consulted. 

In the case of your walkerianas, I have consulted several world authorities and judges about the two leaved issue. Most say that it does occasionally happen (with good growing conditions) but if it keeps re-occurring growth after growth, it is a suspected hybrid. Young plants can throw 2-3 leaves sometimes. This even happens in all matured unifoliates (like my eldorados). 

As for flowering from a single leaved growth, most say it is not possible for a true walkeriana. On the issue of 'Pendictive' and 'Kenny', many say they are hybrids simply because they can flower out of walkeriana season, as well blooming on a single leaved growth. 

Since I started as an AOS judge (associate now), we have encountered many 'super' species that threw us on a loop. Without the benefit of DNA analysis, and with only a name tag at hand, sometimes we err on the safe side (of caution) and pass the plant until further proof. This proof may come from taxonomic confirmation or the documentation of origin (breeder, nursery, catalogue, books, etc). Getting a plant passed of course can be upsetting to the grower (as this has even happened to my own plants). Do know however it is not personal, but rather the process itself and due to lack of more information. I have had plants passed multiple times before it was awarded, for various reasons. 

My advice is to bring the original documentation of the plant as well as any literature related to the plant ID to judging so that the judges can make an informed decision. For example, I will bring books that describes the species and the varieties associated with it. 

As judges, we know a lot but we don't know everything. We are human. Help us help you!


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## Phred (Oct 9, 2020)

DrLeslieEe said:


> Fred, this is indeed an issue at the judging of species (AOS and international judging). So many judges have different experiences and will have their say. If a species is ever in doubt, it can be judged and sent to SITF (species identification task force at AOS HQ) or an experienced judge with a specialty in that genus will be consulted.
> 
> In the case of your walkerianas, I have consulted several world authorities and judges about the two leaved issue. Most say that it does occasionally happen (with good growing conditions) but if it keeps re-occurring growth after growth, it is a suspected hybrid. Young plants can throw 2-3 leaves sometimes. This even happens in all matured unifoliates (like my eldorados).
> 
> ...


Hello Leslie 
I have had judges, when unfamiliar with a species or variety, judge the plant and then send a request for identification to SITF... thats what they did with Paph villosum var. laichaunum and the Paph vejvarutianum I just got awarded. The problem arises when they’re not sure and pass on it. The exhibitor can’t say anything and once they pass on it that’s it until next time.

As for walker flowering... I’ve been told that walkers produce their flowering growths during the dry season and are likely leafless to conserve water. If the season is wetter they don’t have to conserve and can produce flowering growths with a leaf. In Brazil there have been groups of walkers discovered growing in valleys on the ground or on rock outcrops under the trees. They were near water where the humidity was higher, the light was lower and the temperature was cooler. These walkers had much longer pseudobulbs and leaves and initially were considered something other than true walkers. When brought into cultivation, as they grew, they produced new growth that was identical to the plants that were considered true walkers.
The C. walkeriana var. princeps blooms on single leafed growths. What would you call a cross between walker x walker var. princeps?

As for the season for blooming... OrchidWiz says flowering in the Northern Hemisphere is from October thru July. No flowering in the months of August and September. However, upon examination of the flower award dates listed on OrchidWiz, including the entries from Brazil, you find that walkers in cultivation can and have bloomed in every month of the year. Therefore, in my opinion, the issue of a ‘supposed’ walker blooming out of season doesn’t appear to be a, set in stone, factor in identification.

Attached are a few picture of walkers in situ from the internet... with credits.


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## DrLeslieEe (Oct 10, 2020)

It's true walkerianas can bloom all year throughout the world, plus under different conditions may bloom anytime (like under lights). However the majority of the walkerianas that I have seen in the judging world has been highly concentrated in the fall/winter months to early spring (November to March). 

There are always exceptions to the rules. These are the exceptions that get side tracked and may be passed. 

However, it is not one but a variety of characteristics that are taken into account (re: ID) before a decision is made:
1. flower characteristics (eg open side lobes) and overall acceptable shape (falls within the range)
2. flowering growth (leafless or small leaves)
3. size (height) of bulbs
4. plant growth habit
5. flowering season
6. fragrance
7. known color forms or varieties
8. cultivar name
9. location of plant (Northern vs Southern hemisphere)
10. culture condition of plant
11. no other species traits are seen in the flower
12. no confusion with the tags or previous awards
13. previous taxonomic confirmation of plant in question

The above combination (plus judges experiences) will form the picture of acceptable parameters that the plant/flowers fall within. If those characteristics are within agreeable standards, then the plant can be judge without question. If any judge isn't sure, the award can be sent to SITF for confirmation of the species. 

I myself am always learning about plants during judging and that is why research is essential while judging. We look at all AOS awards (as well as other awards) plus OrchidWiz and web to compare and discuss. 

Unfortunately there are times when bias (and ignorance) does come in and reduce the chances, but that is generally countered with a well-balanced team. 

The AOS judging center is always happy when people bring in plants because we get to see pretty flowers and to learn about plants we may not know much about. Sometimes this learning curve teaches us to be better judges. It is in my case anyways


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## spes1959 (Dec 30, 2021)

Phred said:


> Hey BucherT
> Happy to give you my thoughts on this. My choice of medium was the result of having trouble with the usual mediums used for walkers... bark mixes or mounted. I grow in the house. The temperature basically doesnt change... air conditioning in the summer and heat in the winter. The only thing that changes is the humidity. If the air conditioning or heat is on the humidity goes down. The range throughout the year is from 35%- 65% The result was that when the humidity was high the plants in bark stayed wet too long. When it was low the plants that were mounted... or in baskets dryed out too fast and I have too many plants to water every day. With hydroton, or something like it, my walker roots dry out right away but still recieve enough humidity from the water absorbed by the hydroton that I can water every 4 days or so. If I grew in a greenhouse I would have other options.


Wonderful collection and thank you for your explanations relating to the medium used. I ask you if LECA is pure or mixed with rock wool


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## BrucherT (Dec 31, 2021)

Stone said:


> That's interesting Paphman. I remain unconvinced. I trust the genetic sequencing as far as I can throw it. A few year back Xavier gave us some examples of supposed DNA relations between certain Paph species which were beyond ridiculous.!


I’d like to see that.


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