# Paph. helenae flasklings struggling



## PaphLover (Apr 14, 2017)

This is only my second flask, so I'm just a beginner and this is a learning process for me. Your input and advice would be appreciated. 

These have been out of flask for just two weeks and I started at a bit of a disadvantage, because the agar had begun to mold before I had a chance to get the flasklings out (a week after I received them). 

The helenae had lovely roots and I was able to separate several from the clump without damage, but the rest were far too intertwined to release from one another without breaking roots and further bruising the leaves. I figured I could separate them later as their roots dive down and therefore untangle naturally.

I sprayed with 1/50 concentration Inocucor daily for the first week and every second day for the second week. I leave the lid off long enough after spraying to allow the leaves to dry, then replace it. 

They are on a heat mat under a T5H0 light, but I have a paper towel over the lid so they get bright light, but not direct.

There were some browning leaves in the flask which I removed with sterile scissors after potting up. However, as you can see from the photos, leaves are continuing to brown. Should I cut away all the browning leaves or will that only allow more potential fungus, etc. to invade the little babies even with their Inocucor spray baths? 

I do not have any fungicides (I'm in Canada, so don't have Physan, etc., but do have a cinnamon, alcohol concoction I made based on Ray's 'home remedies'.) Should I try that? 

Thanks in advance for any advice you might have.


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## Justin (Apr 14, 2017)

Yes cut off the brown...


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## fibre (Apr 15, 2017)

Something seems to be wrong with the flasking medium. The roots are so short and the leaves look like they didn't get enough nutrients. 
I would use a diluted fertilizer every time I spray this tiny Paphs.

BTW, where did you get this flask from?


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## Ozpaph (Apr 15, 2017)

looks a bit bacterial to me. Cut off all the brown bits and leave a clean edge. Perhaps some cinnamon, then.


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## gonewild (Apr 15, 2017)

Ozpaph said:


> looks a bit bacterial to me. Cut off all the brown bits and leave a clean edge. Perhaps some cinnamon, then.





What lid? Are you blocking all air flow? They must have ventilation. Preferably constant air movement over the leaves. Lack of air movement encourages bacteria and fungi growth. Also the seedlings require CO2 in their atmosphere. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PaphLover (Apr 15, 2017)

fibre said:


> Something seems to be wrong with the flasking medium. The roots are so short and the leaves look like they didn't get enough nutrients.
> I would use a diluted fertilizer every time I spray this tiny Paphs.
> 
> BTW, where did you get this flask from?



Yes, the medium went off before I could get them out, though it did look that cloudy when I first received it. I guess I should have known, but, well, newbie. 

At least the roots in this flask were light brown and fuzzy. The other flask I received from them (Paph. Hsinying Anita x Sanderianum) had dark brown, hairless, skinny roots. Surprisingly, and knock on wood, those seedlings look healthier...even the rootless ones I potted up. 

Ching Hua



gonewild said:


> What lid? Are you blocking all air flow? They must have ventilation. Preferably constant air movement over the leaves. Lack of air movement encourages bacteria and fungi growth. Also the seedlings require CO2 in their atmosphere.



My understanding, gleaned from reading everything I can find online, of handling seedlings just out of flask is that they need near 100% humidity for the first little bit since that's what they received within flask. Gradually, the lid comes off or vents are opened up to allow airflow. Is this not correct? How would you recommend handling them?

Yes, I had read about CO2 in someone's post about their seedlings' amazing growth. Maybe it was you, Lance? They posted photos of their plants and they had grown HUGE in a short amount of time and the secret ingredient was CO2 (though the person was keeping his secret method under pretty tight wraps...at least the last time I read the post). I should go look for that one again. 

Thanks for everyone's reply so far. Your experience and expertise are appreciated.


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## Ozpaph (Apr 15, 2017)

I keep mine 'enclosed' for up to 4 weeks BUT I think yours need air movement and for the leaves to be a bit drier given the rot.


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## gonewild (Apr 16, 2017)

PaphLover said:


> My understanding, gleaned from reading everything I can find online, of handling seedlings just out of flask is that they need near 100% humidity for the first little bit since that's what they received within flask. Gradually, the lid comes off or vents are opened up to allow airflow. Is this not correct? How would you recommend handling them?



I have never covered the deflasked plants. Instead I mist them throughout the day. But maybe you cant be with the plants to do that. They do need very high humidity when first out of the flask, that is why I maintain surface moisture on the leaves and then the air humidity has less effect. That also allows for airflow without drying out the tender leaves.

I asked about the lid because I have the imptession that you have them in a small container without much airspace. When you start to see the leaf dieback you need to reduce humidity and increase airflow. There is a difference between 100% humidity in a sealed sterile flask and an open air environment. In the flask there is no fungi or bacteria to cause problems in the high humidity. In the open atmosphere the high humidity encourages fungi and bacteria to grow fast. Air circulation helps inhibit the microbe growth.



> Yes, I had read about CO2 in someone's post about their seedlings' amazing growth. Maybe it was you, Lance? They posted photos of their plants and they had grown HUGE in a short amount of time and the secret ingredient was CO2 (though the person was keeping his secret method under pretty tight wraps...at least the last time I read the post). I should go look for that one again.



I remember talking about CO2 enhancement but I dont have any secrets. I have done some tests with phal seedlings and increasing nighttime CO2 makes a huge difference in growth rate. For blooming size plants the growth rate is not easy to see a difference in a short time. The small deflasked seedlings were getting their carbon from the agar medium but once you remove the agar they need to get it from the atmosphere. Since small deflasked seedlings must double their size quickly to survive the chance in environment it is important to make sure they have access to CO2 in the air. In a small closed container the plants can consume the CO2 very quickly.

Maybe you should open your containers at night. That will allow CO2 availability and not have a big problem with reduced humidity.


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## PaphLover (Apr 16, 2017)

I found the thread I read a while ago about C02 and seedling growth...
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36552&highlight=seedling+growth

Thank you Lance and Ozpaph for your comments and informative replies. It's helpful. 

fibre, may I ask (for my learning purposes) what about the leaves show that they didn't get enough nutrients in the flask? Is it colour, length, width?

I grow in my condo under lights and even though I live in a rainy climate, I can't keep humidity or temps up in my place like you would a greenhouse. Hence the domes and heat mats. 

I've resorted to this same setup for a 2-yr-old anitum x sanderianum seedling that was growing well for me, but then decided to go downhill and lose most of its leaves. Since I put it on a heat mat and enclosed it in a dome during the day to increase humidity and warmth, it's rewarded me with two new leaves. I lift the dome at night to allow airflow and replace it in the morning. So far, this is working, so I can definitely do the same with the flasklings.

Also, I switched from using rainwater to dilute the Inocucor for spraying the seedlings to distilled water, thinking maybe the rainwater might introduce problems.


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## Ozpaph (Apr 17, 2017)

He didnt end up telling us how he makes CO2 did he?


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## gonewild (Apr 17, 2017)

It's easy to add CO2 by burning an alcohol lamp.


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## Ozpaph (Apr 17, 2017)

Thanks. Have you used one?


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## Ray (Apr 17, 2017)

I doubt the alcohol lamp adds enough to be of any significant benefit. It's sort-of the "humidity tray" concept applied to carbon dioxide.


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## fibre (Apr 17, 2017)

PaphLover said:


> fibre, may I ask (for my learning purposes) what about the leaves show that they didn't get enough nutrients in the flask? Is it colour, length, width?



I think there is some irregular yellowing on the leaves and the brown tips may not be of fungal or bacterial cause but because of nutrient deficiency. But I may wrong on this.
What makes my wonder are the short roots. I deflasked some helenae last week. Most of them showed root of at least 3 cm length. Some of the biggest plants have roots up to 8 cm.


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## gonewild (Apr 17, 2017)

Ozpaph said:


> Thanks. Have you used one?



Yes I do use one.


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## gonewild (Apr 17, 2017)

fibre said:


> I think there is some irregular yellowing on the leaves and the brown tips may not be of fungal or bacterial cause but because of nutrient deficiency. But I may wrong on this.
> What makes my wonder are the short roots. I deflasked some helenae last week. Most of them showed root of at least 3 cm length. Some of the biggest plants have roots up to 8 cm.



Maybe not a nutrient deficiency in the agar but instead a hormone imbalance that effects the root growth.


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## gonewild (Apr 17, 2017)

Ray said:


> I doubt the alcohol lamp adds enough to be of any significant benefit. It's sort-of the "humidity tray" concept applied to carbon dioxide.



What makes you doubt it? I don't understand why you would compare it to a humidity tray. 

From what I understand 50ml of alcohol with raise the CO2 level in a 500 cf space to about 1500ppm over a period of a day.

I burn about half a tuna can of alcohol in a closed grow space of about 500cf and I notice a growth improvement in mature spiking Phals.

In another chamber that has about 400cf I burn 70ml of alcohol in a lamp and the growth rate of small seedlings is very much increased.

In both spaces I light the flames just after dark and the fuel burns away in about 30 minutes. The spaces are fairly air tight so I assume I have a very high CO2 level at the beginning of night and by next morning the level probably has dropped to normal.


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## PaphLover (Apr 17, 2017)

fibre said:


> I think there is some irregular yellowing on the leaves and the brown tips may not be of fungal or bacterial cause but because of nutrient deficiency. But I may wrong on this.
> What makes my wonder are the short roots. I deflasked some helenae last week. Most of them showed root of at least 3 cm length. Some of the biggest plants have roots up to 8 cm.



Ah, I see. Thank you. I did add a cal/mag supplement, which I believe, when deficient, can cause yellowing and brown tips. I hope this will help.



gonewild said:


> Maybe not a nutrient deficiency in the agar but instead a hormone imbalance that effects the root growth.



Perhaps the auxins, etc. in the Kelpmax will assist with this. 

Wow! The Kelpmax and Inocucor sure have their work cut out for them with these babies.


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## gonewild (Apr 17, 2017)

PaphLover said:


> Perhaps the auxins, etc. in the Kelpmax will assist with this.


Adding more auxins could also perpetuate and continue a hormonal imbalance that came from the in vitro medium. It's really a guessing game.


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## fibre (Apr 18, 2017)

gonewild said:


> Maybe not a nutrient deficiency in the agar but instead a hormone imbalance that effects the root growth.





gonewild said:


> Adding more auxins could also perpetuate and continue a hormonal imbalance that came from the in vitro medium. It's really a guessing game.



Oh yes, you are probably right about the hormone imbalance.


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## fibre (Apr 18, 2017)

I don't understand why it is beneficial to add CO2 at night. My thinking was that plants need CO2 for dissimilation at days and O2 for assimilation at night. 

Lance, could you please explain why adding CO2 at night works so well for you?


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## gonewild (Apr 18, 2017)

fibre said:


> I don't understand why it is beneficial to add CO2 at night. My thinking was that plants need CO2 for dissimilation at days and O2 for assimilation at night.
> 
> Lance, could you please explain why adding CO2 at night works so well for you?



Because Phals use CO2 at night. 
Some plants use CO2 at night and some in the day. Plants that use it at night are in the group called "CAM". Look up Crassulacean acid metabolism.

I think some Paphs are in the CAM group and some are not, but I am not sure.
Maybe with Paphs daytime CO2 increase would be better.


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## fibre (Apr 18, 2017)

Ok, thank you Lance!


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## Stone (Apr 18, 2017)

Forget the Co2. If you don't do something immediately you will lose all of them one by one. They look like they have been damaged by agar on their leaves.
They are too wet. You should remove all of them from their containers and cut off all the brown parts with a razor. Throw away any weak ones, they will not make it.
Soak them in a half strength systemic fungicide for 10 minutes. The brown parts may not be infected yet but if they aren't, they soon will be.
Place them out on paper and dry completely. 2-3 hours is ok.
Pot them up in a shallow container in bark charcoal perlite mix with large pieces of polystyrene for half the depth on the container. (Use a coarse mix! - No less than 5 or 7mm). No moss.
Mist them with boiled rain water if possible whenever they dry. They should dry out regularly and completely every day. (When I say dry out, I mean all the surface moisture, including the roots) A fan will help this. A fan is essential.
Keep them at 27 degrees during the day and 20 at night. Keep the humidity high but only if there is strong air movement.
Do not feed until you see some actual new root growth. If they survive, this may take 3 months.
Be prepared to loose many of them. Remove them as soon as you notice browning in the centre of the growth.
Good luck!


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## Ozpaph (Apr 19, 2017)

gonewild said:


> Because Phals use CO2 at night.
> Some plants use CO2 at night and some in the day. Plants that use it at night are in the group called "CAM". Look up Crassulacean acid metabolism.
> 
> I think some Paphs are in the CAM group and some are not, but I am not sure.
> Maybe with Paphs daytime CO2 increase would be better.



Thank-you. There is never an easy answer, is there?


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