# Are orchid vendors deceptive?



## StreetVariety (Mar 1, 2017)

It seems like most orchid vendors suggest culture tips that will definitely lead to orchids' death. Is this their business model?


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## troy (Mar 1, 2017)

I get reference from known professionals, there are many on this forum!! Just ask!!


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## PaphMadMan (Mar 1, 2017)

Most mass market orchids in bud or flower come with instructions that should keep them alive long enough to enjoy the flowers for a few weeks. Beyond that most people do throw them away, and yes, that is part of the business model for those flowering plants. Those big box and grocery store wholesalers and sellers want you to come back in a few weeks and buy another, not keep it alive to flower again. I'm not sure I would call the practice actively deceptive, just capitalism in action.

Legitimate orchid greenhouses and producers that sell plants for collectors as well as plants in flower usually give very good instructions, though sometimes they are still focused on greenhouse growing rather than what is best for windowsill and under-lights growers. This has actually gotten much better over the years. 40-50 years ago most instructions assumed a greenhouse, and even the suggestion that you could grow in your home was taboo for some growers.


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## StreetVariety (Mar 1, 2017)

I'm referring to "legitimate" orchid greenhouses and producers. 

At best, they give you half baked tips like "General thumb of rule is to water once a week" while they're growing their orchids in semi hydro conditions. :rollhappy:


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## Ray (Mar 1, 2017)

StreetVariety said:


> I'm referring to "legitimate" orchid greenhouses and producers.
> 
> At best, they give you half baked tips like "General thumb of rule is to water once a week" while they're growing their orchids in semi hydro conditions. :rollhappy:



Under some circumstances, watering plants in S/H culture once a week might be perfectly appropriate.


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## StreetVariety (Mar 1, 2017)

Ray said:


> Under some circumstances, watering plants in S/H culture once a week might be perfectly appropriate.



Exactly... Except they don't tell you what the circumstances are.


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## littlefrog (Mar 1, 2017)

That is really the problem. Vendors don't know what your circumstances are...


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## Secundino (Mar 1, 2017)

What is your point really? 

Before buying, you should inform yourself. 
A vendor wants to sell, and knows perfectly how to do so.


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## tnyr5 (Mar 1, 2017)

It's a two-way street. If you ask a generic question (" How do I grow this?"), you will get a generic answer. If you ask a specific question ("How do you think I should grow this with V water quality, W ferts, under X light, Y humidity, and Z temperatures?") then you'll get an answer tailored to your use. Realistically, it's their job to provide orchids, not teach anyone how to grow them (especially if they're just asking questions & not buying) and yes, they will leave out the tricks they've developed to grow orchids faster than their rivals, as well they should. The good vendors, of course, do both, because they know that the average customer is "put off" by being referred to a book. Too many people want someone to spoon-feed them the answers nowadays. It's not completely their fault, and they don't often realize that they're doing it; society has conditioned people to be that way. 

In all honesty, compared to vendors from some other hobbies *cough* reef aquariums *cough*, the orchid sellers are saints! Sorry for the rant.


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## coronacars (Mar 1, 2017)

What is deceptive is the picture they take vs the orchid they send you.


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## SlipperFan (Mar 1, 2017)

You are painting with a pretty broad brush. I suspect you had some bad experience with one or two vendors. My own experience with many vendors is that they give advice based on their own background and knowledge. By now, most orchid growers know that what works for one doesn't necessarily work for another. Just get on the internet and ask how to grow a Phalaenopsis, for example. You'll get dozens of different answers. Do your research and find out what works for you.

In the case of the photo -- are you talking about eBay?


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## ehanes7612 (Mar 1, 2017)

The whole point of having a hobby is to learn on your own...every bit of advice should be taken with a grain of salt


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## coronacars (Mar 1, 2017)

Yes I see a lot of great pics on ebay and I know that is not the orchid you will get. Some post an awesome pic and say this is representative of what you will get but I will pick the actual orchid when I ship. Others however do say exact pic of the orchid you are bidding on. It for sure is buyer beware.


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## Happypaphy7 (Mar 1, 2017)

I agree with what Dot says and some of what others say.

You should search and know basics about where in the wild a plant or for hybrids, their ancestral species come from, then see if you could provide good enough conditions.
If you feel confident, you try and learn as you go.

Vendors grow theirs in the environment that are very different from others.
They can only give you basic guide lines. 

Regarding culture, I think it is best to utilize websites like this where you can find people with similar conditions and talk and share experiences.

You are overgeneralizing things here by throwing the question and I don't think that is fair to good business people out there.

I only know one vendor who sends a piece of paper with full of crap written on it, and I know many people know who I'm talking about. lol


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## Happypaphy7 (Mar 1, 2017)

Coronacas-

Be specific, please.
I hate to hear this kind of general stories based on a single or very limited incidents as if eBay is a bad market place or sellers on eBay are somehow dishonest.

Dishonest people are everywhere. 
I have dealt with a lot of plants and other non-living objects on eBay for many many years.
While I have a few occasions where I got things that were not up to my ideal standards, I've never received anything that was different than what was shown in the pictures on the listing.

If you have received items that are different than what was shown in the photos in the listing, there are ways to resolve the issues.
Take pictures and communicate with the seller. They usually work with you as your negative feedback will affect them badly.
You can also report to eBay. 

Overall, I find eBay a great market place, especially for buying orchids.
The best part for me is to be able to see what I'm getting because I am very particular about clean plants. 
If you don't like what you see, simply don't buy. Ask questions before bidding or buying, read details in the listing. 
You should be fine this way.


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## coronacars (Mar 1, 2017)

Here is one sellers disclaimer from Ebay:

We have several and will send best plant available on day of shipping. Plant and flower pics representational not exact.

I agree I have had great experiences from Ebay orchid sellers. I do think it is buyer beware. By communicating with them first and letting them know what you want it helps a lot. And you have to look at what you pay. I don't expect something amazing for a bargain price. I'm a firm believer in you get the quality that is reflected in the price. That doesn't mean it has to be crazy price. Some thing don't bring as much as others, but if you want quality it probably isn't $19.99.


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## NYEric (Mar 1, 2017)

I have been in the hobby for way longer than I have been using eBay. I have only been burned once, maybe I have been lucky.


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## Happypaphy7 (Mar 2, 2017)

I have seen that desclaimer also.
I'm sure they are good, but I won't buy from such a seller because I have to see what I'm paying for and getting exactly.
It's the whole purpose of shopping on eBay for me.

Well, without mutual agreement of refund and return of something less than desiable, of course, but I don't want to go that extra burden when vast majority sellers post photos of exact things that they are selling.


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## Happypaphy7 (Mar 2, 2017)

NYEric said:


> I have been in the hobby for way longer than I have been using eBay. I have only been burned once, maybe I have been lucky.



I have been disappointed, but not burned. 
Ebay is a popular place for many years for reasons.
I'm sure there are different amount/kind of hick ups in different categories, though, of course.


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## StreetVariety (Mar 2, 2017)

Secundino said:


> What is your point really?
> 
> Before buying, you should inform yourself.
> A vendor wants to sell, and knows perfectly how to do so.



Of course, one can inform themselves except that I spent A LOT of time researching only to find that brachys apparently like heavy shade and catteyla lighting. How am I supposed to know who to trust? They certainly don't tell you their success rate. 

How am I supposed to know if they just import their orchids and re-sell immediately? How do I know if they spent 20 years trying to grow that damn orchid in sup-optimal conditions? How do I know how much orchids they burned through before they found that one worked for them?

A lot of information is missing. 



ehanes7612 said:


> The whole point of having a hobby is to learn on your own...every bit of advice should be taken with a grain of salt


Sounds like a great way to rationalize the amount of orchids killed by aspiring hobbyists and fuel the orchid business. oke:



tnyr5 said:


> It's a two-way street. If you ask a generic question (" How do I grow this?"), you will get a generic answer. If you ask a specific question ("How do you think I should grow this with V water quality, W ferts, under X light, Y humidity, and Z temperatures?") then you'll get an answer tailored to your use. Realistically, it's their job to provide orchids, not teach anyone how to grow them (especially if they're just asking questions & not buying) and yes, they will leave out the tricks they've developed to grow orchids faster than their rivals, as well they should. The good vendors, of course, do both, because they know that the average customer is "put off" by being referred to a book. Too many people want someone to spoon-feed them the answers nowadays. It's not completely their fault, and they don't often realize that they're doing it; society has conditioned people to be that way.
> 
> In all honesty, compared to vendors from some other hobbies *cough* reef aquariums *cough*, the orchid sellers are saints! Sorry for the rant.



And being spoon fed with information to keep your plants alive is bad exactly how??? They can easily say that they grow their orchids with V water quality, W ferts, under X light, Y humidity, and Z temperatures but they don't.

Sure, orchid business is not bad as reef business, but that doesn't mean orchid business is innocent... One only have to take cursory glance at posts about rungs to see the evil. Canhii situation wasn't inspiring either.

@ Other posts
No, I haven't been burned by wrong pic or whatever. But, I just think that sellers could literally tell people exactly how they grow their orchids and they chose to not... Why is that?


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## Secundino (Mar 2, 2017)

This is strange. Why on earth you want to know how the growing conditions where _before_ you buy a plant? The point about buying at vendors/growers - as compared to revendors like flower shops etc. - is that we may assume that they grow under most efficient conditions = best conditions for the plants (which must not be optimum) with the least input needed to archive that. They don't want to have the plants on the shelves, they want to sell them as soon as possible!

What you must know are the needs of the plant you want to buy. Because the growing conditions you can offer - and your abilities in improving them to fit the plants' needs - will limit the type of plant you can chose. Because a plant does not adapt itself to the growing conditions you will offer, its you who must adapt the growing conditions to the necessities of the plant, species or hybrid.

How can a vendor know the growing conditions - and the abilities you have or don't - you can offer? Of course, a plant grown under nearly optimal conditions in a GH will need to harden a bit when growing on a window sill or even outside, but that is all the adaptation you can expect. Though it will tell you if it's not happy!

And yes, that implies that you merge into the information pool and search among all information there is, the good and the wrong. A good book would do that part for you! But in internet its you who must discern between fake information and right information. But a plant is a living being as a pet can be, and well deserves this part of responsibility. In the end, this hobby is just that - keeping them alive as long as possible and making them thrive under the growing conditions we do continuously improve to meet the needs of our plants.


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## Ray (Mar 2, 2017)

Personally, I think you're asking for more than can be reasonably expected of any vendor. (I am speaking from the dual perspectives of a hobbyist and as a vendor who sold plants for over 20 years, and I worked very hard to help my customers understand what they were getting and getting into.)

With the resources available to us on the internet, there is really no excuse for not researching for yourself. Think about it, a vendor in your preferred scenario would have to know how every possible combination of cultural parameters would affect the growth and blooming of the plant; you only have to consider yours.

AND - by querying other resources, such as other growers on forums like this - you can learn the reputations of the various vendors out there, further increasing your odds of success.

Oh! Please explain how one provides "heavy shade and cattleya lighting."


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## Kalyke (Mar 2, 2017)

StreetVariety said:


> It seems like most orchid vendors suggest culture tips that will definitely lead to orchids' death. Is this their business model?



This is hard to answer because each growing situation is different. I am in the desert with very low humidity, very hard aquifer water, extremely hot days in the middle of the summer. I cannot take (much) advice from a grower in Seattle, or Vancouver, BC. I have to make adjustments based on my growing areas. I cannot just read a short care sheet, and know all the things pertaining to my growing conditions. What if the sheet only reflects growing conditions in Taiwan? I mean, I am not in Taiwan, so my climate is different. 

Even at Orchid shows, a vendor might be from San Francisco, and have boxes of Masdevalias. He might say: These grow well, all you have to do is water them once a week. Well, in my area, they would die if I used that advice, but in his area, that might be all they need. 

I do extensive research on each orchid type I get. I find out what climate they are genetically suited for, and I make decisions about their potting and culture from there. 

Regarding Ebay: I have tried several vendors, and have my "favorites" which I always get good service and good plants from. I usually stick with these ones. I live in the sticks, so I have never had the fortune to buy at a real greenhouse. I have gotten most of my collection from the internet (ebay, and other orchid businesses) and have gotten very few actual DUDs. I make a big stink when I do. LOL

Hope this helps.


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## Linus_Cello (Mar 2, 2017)

Kalyke said:


> This is hard to answer because each growing situation is different. I am in the desert with very low humidity, very hard aquifer water, extremely hot days in the middle of the summer. I cannot take (much) advice from a grower in Seattle, or Vancouver, BC. I have to make adjustments based on my growing areas. I cannot just read a short care sheet, and know all the things pertaining to my growing conditions. What if the sheet only reflects growing conditions in Taiwan? I mean, I am not in Taiwan, so my climate is different.



Because of regional differences, why don't you join your local orchid society, and ask the people who bring in plants that you are interested in growing, "how do you grow that." That may help with more accurate answers tailored to your needs.


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## PaphMadMan (Mar 2, 2017)

In many cases when a seller says the picture is representative and the best plant available will be sent, it means just that. They may have 50 or 200 such plants. Rather than giving a picture of the one that is in flower now and sending that plant as the flowers are fading they use it as an example so you can see the flowers. They will pick the biggest plant that is just coming into spike, at the optimal time to ship it without damage to the spike, so you get to enjoy the flowers as long as possible. That is the only way they can guarantee you will get the best they have available. Would you really want them to set up a situation here they can't send you the best plant available?

At other times it is appropriate to picture the exact plant - a specimen or a first flowering seedling - when it is important to get exactly what you see. In either case, they should say what they will do and follow through. In many casers where eBay buyers complain about not getting the exact plant they just didn't bother to read and understand the listing. 

As far as the exact conditions the plant has been getting - why would I care? I can't possibly replicate what a greenhouse can provide, and if my temperature and humidity will be different then the watering frequency is meaningless. The fertilizer that is appropriate in a greenhouse environment might not be best in my conditions either. And giving the producer's list of conditions to a beginner would be terribly misleading for that reason. If I need basic information on care I can ask them, or ask here, or consult hundreds of available sources online or published elsewhere and make my best judgment based on my conditions and experience.


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## NYEric (Mar 2, 2017)

With enough money and effort you can grow any orchid anywhere. Do your research before you buy.


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## orcoholic (Mar 2, 2017)

I cannot tell you how many times I've been asked how do you take care of orchids. When I tell them wait til it's dry before you water they ask How many times a week is that?

My advice to you would be that if you are having problems with specific vendors, find new ones that you feel comfortable with.

In lieu of that get used to it.

In lieu of that, find another hobby.


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## h_mossy (Mar 2, 2017)

StreetVariety said:


> Exactly... Except they don't tell you what the circumstances are.


In every growing situatioin there are micro-climates where they are lighter / darker, wetter / dryer, windy / stagnant air, etc. You have to know your growing area well to be aware of them. Sometimes it is a matter of being closer to the shade cloth, or further away from the mister. The instructions for growing a specific type of orchid are general guidelines, but your specific growing area will require those general directions to be altered somewhat. Blaming the vendor may not be accurate in all cases. Plus, if a vendor gets a reputation for giving bad advice, how long will he stay in business? If you have issues, why not post it in an open forum like this one, and let the experienced growers chime in before making a judgement against a vendor that may be undeserved?


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## NYEric (Mar 2, 2017)

In general, the answer is, "No.". One cannot blame the vendor for that are impossible to answer.


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## Kalyke (Mar 2, 2017)

Linus_Cello said:


> Because of regional differences, why don't you join your local orchid society, and ask the people who bring in plants that you are interested in growing, "how do you grow that." That may help with more accurate answers tailored to your needs.



Because there is no local orchid society here. Any way, that is what I was saying, if you read again. Asking people is also a good idea.


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## ehanes7612 (Mar 3, 2017)

StreetVariety said:


> Of course, one can inform themselves except that I spent A LOT of time researching only to find that brachys apparently like heavy shade and catteyla lighting. How am I supposed to know who to trust? They certainly don't tell you their success rate.
> 
> How am I supposed to know if they just import their orchids and re-sell immediately? How do I know if they spent 20 years trying to grow that damn orchid in sup-optimal conditions? How do I know how much orchids they burned through before they found that one worked for them?
> 
> ...





You have the wrong hobby if you grow orchids


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## D-novice (Mar 3, 2017)

coronacars said:


> What is deceptive is the picture they take vs the orchid they send you.



I'd use photos of my best flower too. With a seed cross they never know what you'll get. Odom's in FL will post several photos of flowering seed crosses that they sell (Catts, mostly) but you could still end up - and probably will - with something different.

I would add that I've received plants in bud or sheath, they bloomed looking one way, then the following bloom looked completely different - because light warmth etc etc all influence flower form.

Now if you're saying they are sending you beat up plants that is different.

My vendor rant is visible elsewhere on the web. But there is one orchid vendor in Southern California, name of the business is a man's first name, that ships garbage. They're not alone - many vendors are able to get rootless plants to bloom, but you're not buying a vigorous healthy plant, you're buying something that is pretty neglected. Anyway this place has shipped me crap plants in two different orders, I am never buying from them again. But it's not surprising, they have a large online presence and specialize in novel phals for the person who wants something one step above home depot variety.

But I think many of the orchid vendors are fantastic. They've been extremely nice to me.


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## D-novice (Mar 3, 2017)

One other thing. Failure is part of orchid growing, even for the very best orchid growers. Everyone, and I mean everyone, kills plants. Eventually you figure out what works in your conditions, and what plants are allergic to you.


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## Gilda (Mar 31, 2017)

I have to comment on this...there is no way anyone can tell you how to care for your orchids in your own home, or even a greenhouse. 
Your light, temp, air movement, water quality , fertiliser you use all will be different., and affect the growth.

Growers can only suggest what you should do/try.
Do your homework that applies to your growing condition and the orchids you want to grow.

If I had a dollar for every time I've been asked how often do I water this, I'd be rich or have enough to at least buy a nice orchid


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## Marco (Apr 2, 2017)

ehanes7612 said:


> You have the wrong hobby if you grow orchids



I agree with Ehanes...If all of this is a bother, you may be in the wrong hobby.

I've killed numerous orchids. If an orchid dies under my care, even if the care I provided was based on information from the orchid wizard himself. I have no one to blame but myself because I couldn't give it the conditions it needed. Then its time to take the band-aid off and try again.


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## eOrchids (Apr 5, 2017)

You cannot blame the vendor. Do your research and hope the plant grows/blooms for you. If not, keep trying till one suits your growing conditions.


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## StreetVariety (Apr 5, 2017)

To be clear, I'm only against vendors giving out false information in hopes that it will kill their client's plant.

Of course a forum full of orchid vendors would claim that this never happens.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Apr 5, 2017)

Personally I think I am going to plant hell after I die :evil: My rap-sheet must be horrifying to see all at one time.

I think any vendor wants you to come back and buy more plants, but I don't there is an agenda to withhold information. That would be silly. Someone may grow a certain plant really well, while the guy down the street with the same conditions fails miserably. That's the way it is from what I've seen.

BTW, I'm not a vendor, though I have sold a few plants now and then.


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## SlipperFan (Apr 6, 2017)

Why on earth would a vendor give information that would result in killing their plant? No vendor I know would think that will bring them repeat business.


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