# Hey, Ernie. It bloomed.



## ncart (Oct 24, 2009)

Paphiopedilum primulinum fma. flavum (‘Flutter’ X ‘Surprise’)







I think the 2nd growth is going to have a spike.


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## NYEric (Oct 25, 2009)

Thanx for sharing.


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## Roth (Oct 25, 2009)

With this type of leaves, sorry but that's a Pinocchio... Primulinum has more "skinny" dark green leaves with different veins. On those leaves we easily can see the influence of glaucophyllum...


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## biothanasis (Oct 25, 2009)

Very beautiful!


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## Hakone (Oct 25, 2009)

that's a chamberlainianum var. primulinum


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## Roth (Oct 25, 2009)

Hakone said:


> that's a chamberlainianum var. primulinum



Quite not, that's glaucophyllum x primulinum, better known as Pinocchio, selfed a couple of time... like most primulinums around. Even many plants coming from Indonesia are in fact Pinnochio linebred. Primulinum is very rare in the wild, in fact, there are no sure primulinum coming from the wild for the last 10-15 years. 

On the other side, one very large pot-plant nursery from Bandung bought a lot of Pinnochio from the Netherlands in flask quite a bit of years ago. They are growing nicely, but they are not very well cared of, in growing beds on the ground. That's the source of many 'primulinum' sold from Indonesia for at least 15 years if not more. The original primulinums had beefy shiny dark green leaves, quite narrow. Quite a few had 10-15cm x 1cm leaves in fact.

One man working as a trader for the Eric Young Foundation sold to many very famous breeders, including in California, a lot of Pinnochio under the name of Primulinum select, or primulinum 4n. That's the same guy who sold a few dozen division of roth Mt. Millais in less than 5 years, to assess his reliability. Many of those fake primulinums foudn their way in the breeding programs of many nurseries worldwide.


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## SlipperKing (Oct 25, 2009)

I'm in agreement with Sanderianum. After looking in a one of old books, this is not primulinum. Reflexing dorsal, incomplete twisting of the petals, staminode flat across the bottom side without the center tooth. I can also remember leaves being as Sanderianum discribes, including wavey as well.


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## Hakone (Oct 25, 2009)

Paphiopedilum chamberlainianum forma primulinum var. falvum FOWLIE , Orchid Digest 37:104; 1973

please see:

Genus Paphiopedilum Albino Forms - Olaf Gruss - page 153

Paphiopedilum glaucophyllum var. moquetteanum forma flavoviride


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## Roth (Oct 25, 2009)

Hakone said:


> Paphiopedilum chamberlainianum forma primulinum var. falvum FOWLIE , Orchid Digest 37:104; 1973
> 
> please see:
> 
> ...



glaucophyllum album and moquetteanum are fakes. 

glaucophyllum album was made by a man whose first name is Mike T. from England, he actually made another scam with the rothschildianum album sold to Japan. I got amongst the first flasks ever released, and quite a few flowered typical of Pinocchio... Now after a couple of generation maybe they have solved the problem, but glaucophyllum album has never been found.

For moquetteanum album I have been amongst the first to get "divisions" and selfed it, when the selfings bloomed it was definitely another scam. The original plant came from a nursery dealing in pot-plant actually, who claimed they had that "jungle plant" from the ancient time.

So far in the strange things from that group, apart from primulinum that is albinistic, the real things ever found were :

- liemianum album. Dead, no progeny, beautiful flowers actually, I saw it in Indonesia few years ago...

- victoria-mariae album. In Japan, no selfing, single unique plant

- chamberlainianum blue, with a blue cattleya pouch.

All those moquetteanum, glaucophyllum, etc... album are simply fake ones...


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## Ernie (Oct 25, 2009)

Okay, a challenge then... Who has pix of REAL primulinum flowers and leaves. I can see where Xavier is coming from since prim fma purpurascens does have narrow, thick leaves, but EVERY prim (flavum) I've ever seen is like this. Seems the market is overrun with Pinocchios. Who's lying now little wooden boy? 

-Ernie


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## Roth (Oct 25, 2009)

Ernie said:


> Okay, a challenge then... Who has pix of REAL primulinum flowers and leaves. I can see where Xavier is coming from since prim fma purpurascens does have narrow, thick leaves, but EVERY prim (flavum) I've ever seen is like this. Seems the market is overrun with Pinocchios. Who's lying now little wooden boy?
> 
> -Ernie



Yes, the primulinum plants and even flower shape originally looked very similar to the purpurascens, apart from the uniform green color. I ll try to dig up a picture of a real primulinum in the coming days, but so far I have seen real ones only very few times, and always very old plants - including one of the original ones that was still alive at Marcel Lecoufle place, used to make the first Pinnochio. Narrow very dark green a bit rough leaves...

Nearly all the plants in the trade are the fake Pinnochio... When the fake primulinum entered the market, the real genuine ones were far less appealing - but very fragrant, as are all the real primulinum... though some hybrids carry that, but at least, if the flower is not fragrant, it is absolutely sure it is not a primulinum. So most growers sold their "crappy" primulinum to simply breed and sell the "selected primulinum". Big mess.

Same thing happened with callosum sanderae, and lawrenceanum hyeanum. So far, I have seen only 1 genuine lawrenceanum hyeanum. Tradition is an hybrid, as are all the lawrencenum hyeanum in the teade. Same for curtisii sanderae and superbiens sanderae, they are from a Dutch pot-plant nursery originally, breeding things like Gowerianum, Goultenianum... and that eventually had some plants whose flowers came close to those rare albino species.


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## SlipperFan (Oct 25, 2009)

Interesting discussion. And disconcerting!


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## Yoyo_Jo (Oct 25, 2009)

What do you think of this one? I was told it was the real deal.


Paph. primulinum (‘Green Elf’ x ‘Hsingyin’)


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## Yoyo_Jo (Oct 25, 2009)

Here's the plant:






And for comparison, here's the plant side by side with my Pinocchio (in bud  )


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## ncart (Oct 25, 2009)

SlipperFan said:


> Interesting discussion. And disconcerting!



Thank you. I like the flower. I am keeping it as *Paphiopedilum primulinum fma. flavum (‘Flutter’ X ‘Surprise’)
*


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## goldenrose (Oct 26, 2009)

SlipperFan said:


> Interesting discussion. And disconcerting!


Isn't it though! I'm wondering what mine is?  It's from Antec & is a somewhat smallish plant.


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## rdhed (Oct 26, 2009)

Seems we have had this same discussion.
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1492&highlight=royal+horticulture+society

--Allen--


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Oct 26, 2009)

I'm a little confused. Truthfully, a few weeks ago I purchased a group of paphs. In that group where 2 that were labeled as pinocchio. One bloomed out like this:
http://www.slipperorchids.info/paphdatasheets/cochlopetalum/primulinum/PaphPinocchio.jpg

This is what I had expected. Then the other one bloomed out like the one we are all discussing here. Truthfully, I thought it was mislabeled and replaced the label with primulinum var. flavin. 

How could they both be pinocchio's and look so differently?


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## SlipperFan (Oct 26, 2009)

Maybe some were made with primulinum (flavum) and the others with var. purpuratum?


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## Ernie (Oct 27, 2009)

Bob in Albany said:


> I'm a little confused. Truthfully, a few weeks ago I purchased a group of paphs. In that group where 2 that were labeled as pinocchio. One bloomed out like this:
> http://www.slipperorchids.info/paphdatasheets/cochlopetalum/primulinum/PaphPinocchio.jpg
> 
> This is what I had expected. Then the other one bloomed out like the one we are all discussing here. Truthfully, I thought it was mislabeled and replaced the label with primulinum var. flavin.
> ...



IMO... The one you show, Bob, is a Pinocchio that I think was actually made with moquettianum (ex. glaucophyllum var. moquettianum). I'm guessing this because of the general shape and more so, the dorsal sepal. This is now considered Paph. Cloud's Prime Crystal (moquettianum X primulinum) since the RHS has since teased out moquettianum from glaucophyllum. Whether it's a true Pinocchio (glaucophyllum X primulinum) or a Cloud's Prime Crystal, you can potentially get albino plants. Primulinum seems to be pretty strong for passing on albinism. Maybe Robert Q can give us the stats on exactly how strong. Or Dot's suggestion that a prim pur was used could also be true to give colored progeny. 

The other thread mentioned and linked back to Matt Gore's picture thread was more on the use of a form/variety name for the albino version of primulinum. Since the albino form was the type for the species, properly no var/fma is used to designate it. However, paph primulinum forma purpurascens is used to denote the colored form. Again, as far as I know (could be dated info). BUT, many sellers (us included) specifically mention, in some way, that a primulinum is albino simply to avert a barrage of inquiries... are your primulinum (or Pinocchio  ) albino or pink? 

-Ernie


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## Roth (Oct 27, 2009)

The problem with those different Pinnochio is that there are many type of crosses under that name in the pot-plant trade. By choosing the proper one, people can sell glaucophyllum album, or the rarer, more expensive moquetteanum album, or primulinum under steroids.

To sum up:
- Pinnochio F1 = primulinum x glaucophyllum or moquetteanum at that time. No use for the yellow scam, they are all colored.
- The selfings of those ones, and their selfings. Great for the primulinum 4n/selected primulinum scam.
- The 4n made by Floricultura and their selfings. Glaucophyllum album or primulinum, very very selected.
- The Pinnochio x primulinum, perfect for a part of the seedlings, primulinum that no one can compete with.

People forget that primulinum from the jungle, 20 years ago, was a quite gracile species, small flowers, fragrant, and with very, very distinctive leaves.

I try to find out a picture of a plant, the closest I can come by on the internet is that one:

http://aqorchids.com/Seedling_primulinum.jpg

It would be the maximum size of a primulinum, but it should be a bit darker green to say the least. The leaf and plant shape look more correct.

For the flower shape, it would be more like that:

http://gardenbreizh.org/modules/pix/cache/photos_160000/GBPIX_photo_165955.jpg

About 10-15 years ago, both Lecoufle and the Jardins du Luxembourg still had original plants documented back to Kolopaking in the 70's. There were maybe 20-30 different ones, leaves ranging from 15x1cm up to maximum 18-20 x 2 cm for one specific plant. But most had very smallish leaves, and this flower shape, just to give an idea.

I think that they have been too contaminated by the Pinnochio, so only a few people remember how a primulinum should look like. Furthermore, when the Indos were out of stock, they traded paphs with Europe against pinnochio album, first as pot-plant, then to sell those ones to their Taiwanese, US and Japanese market - and sometimes back to Europe.

Now it is nearly gone, but before, there were a lot of nurseries in Indonesia dealing in pot-plant.... One even had some thousands praestans/gardineri etc... clumps for the Japanese pot-plant market. There are still couple hundreds there in that nursery - that's them who had the first praestans album ever found...


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## paphioboy (Oct 27, 2009)

Interesting thread.. I have 2 seedlings of primulinum which looks like the one Sanderianum posted. The leaves are dark and narrow, very much unlike the undulating slightly floppy leaves of Pinocchio.


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## SlipperFan (Oct 27, 2009)

Sanderianum said:


> For the flower shape, it would be more like that:
> 
> http://gardenbreizh.org/modules/pix/cache/photos_160000/GBPIX_photo_165955.jpg



I'd take that primulinum in a heartbeat.

Thanks for all the info, Sanderianum.


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## Kavanaru (Oct 27, 2009)

very interesting discussion... I am wondering now what I have gotten from OL... (anyway, whatever it is I'll keep it labelled as Paph. primulinum!)... however, very good to know all the chaos in this group of Paphies...





Sanderianum said:


> The problem with those different Pinnochio is that there are many type of crosses under that name in the pot-plant trade. By choosing the proper one, people can sell glaucophyllum album, or the rarer, more expensive moquetteanum album, or primulinum under steroids.
> 
> To sum up:
> - Pinnochio F1 = primulinum x glaucophyllum or moquetteanum at that time. No use for the yellow scam, they are all colored.
> ...



just confused now at this point of the discussion. Didn't you said before that glaucophyllum album or moquetteanum album do not exist!?


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## Leo Schordje (Oct 27, 2009)

I do remember the old small growing small flowered primulinum. Dick Clements had a batch of seedlings from Rex van Delden, that were from a selfing of a division of the plant originally deposited at Kew as the type specimen for primulinum. If the verbal provenance can be believed. I do remember that many of the seedlings had a pleasant sweet fragrance, especially about mid day. This was about 1979 through 1985 or so. Then a devade later, much larger flowered primulinum like Pinoccho's started appearing. No fragrance for any of them. Primulinum is dominant for suppressing purple in its hybrids, but recessive for fragrance in its hybrids. There may be a few oldies around, I lost my primulinum years ago. I have not applied a critical eye to my current replacement. I am not sure what I have anymore.


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## Drorchid (Nov 2, 2009)

Interesting thread, I did not see this until now. I will start a new thread in the Taxonomy section, so we can discuss this more.

Here is a link to the thread:
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=181880#post181880

Robert


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## delphiguy (Nov 2, 2009)

interesting thread....


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## tenman (Nov 4, 2009)

Sanderianum said:


> There are still couple hundreds there in that nursery - that's them who had the first praestans album ever found...



There you go again, mentioning dream plants of which we've never heard or seen. Where are these praestans albums and are there seedlings on the way we can get?? Any pics of these?


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## Roth (Nov 5, 2009)

tenman said:


> There you go again, mentioning dream plants of which we've never heard or seen. Where are these praestans albums and are there seedlings on the way we can get?? Any pics of these?



The praestans album appeared in cultivation in the 80's, one division sold at that time by the Indonesians, then the remaining of the plant has been sold maybe 15 years ago to a wealthy orchid collector in Europe, in Germany, who killed it. End of the story. There are pictures in Olaf book albino paphiopedilum, that's the very same plant... It joined mastersianum album and sangii album in the plants that existed once, bloomed once, but did not survive long enough to have progeny...


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