# Peruflora Pk flask fiasco



## Greenthings (Feb 21, 2007)

On January 18 2005, ManoloArias of Peruflora offered people around the world and visitors to the WOC in Dijon France eight Pk species flasks, #751 to #758. They also offered two Pk hybrid flasks, :#759 Phrag czerwiakowianum x Pk, and # 760 Phrag wallisii x Pk

It was predicted in 2005 and proven to be correct in 2007 that some of the flasks numbered 751 through 758 would not contain Pk species, but something else. It was rumoured that illegal non-Pk seeds were sold as Pk seeds to Peruflora.

This month, February 2007, the prediction from two years ago was confirmed by Chuck Ackers and Jerry Fischer, who found Non-Pk seedlings on their benches that had come from Pk species flasks purchased from Peruflora in Lima, on a trip there in 2005. Manolo Arias manager of Peruflora, confirmed a mistake was made in a letter of apology to Chuck Acker. 

I have been asked privately by a number of people to make comments on how did this Peruflora Pk flasks fiasco could have happened. 

Here is how I see it:

1) Jerry Fischer, echoing Manolo Arias, claims that this was due to a mix up of labels in Peruflora's laboratory, which he says is one of the best labs he has seen in the world. I have pictures of Peruflora's Lab and note that it is a well organized laboratory, which makes a mix up of labels highly unlikely.

2) Many, if not most, believe the cause to be illegal non-Pk seeds purchased as Pk seeds in 2005. 

Which of the two is is correct? Well, let's see,

1) If Jerry is correct

We should soon hear from others, who purchased Peruflora Pk hybrid flasks # 259 and/or # 260 made with Phrag zcerwiakowianum and Phrag wallisii. 

Complaints should be heard that in some of these two Pk hybrid flasks pure
Pk seedlings were found. It must be so, for such is the consequence of mixing species and hybrid flask labels in a well organized laboratory.

If such complaints do come in, you must check that these were flasks purchased in 2005 when the oiginal flask list was still valid and no new 
hybrids had been made by Peruflora. Flasks purchased at the WOC in Dijon
France would all qualify.
.
If no such complaints do come in, then label switching becomes extremely doubtful. For every Pk species flask with a Pk hybrid label, there must be a Pk hybrid flask with a Pk species label.

2) If illegal seed purchase and substitution is correct and the cause of Peruflora's Pk flask fiasco, you bet angry customers having paid up to $1,080 for a single Pk species flask will flower them out. If they find out that these plants could not possibly be the result of crosses # 259 or # 260, then illegal seed purchase is confirmed and the label mix up story is false.

Time will tell.


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## Greenthings (Feb 22, 2007)

*Jerry Fischer claims Peruflora did not purchase illegal Pk seeds*

Well maybe they were a gift???

Let us look at just one cross, Peruflora flask # 260, Phrag wallisii x Pk 'Goliath'

Manuel Arias collected his five legal Pk plants in June of 2003.

In Lima P. wallisii usually flowers in December and the seed pod takes nearly one year to mature. That means the earliest time that the seeds of a legal cross # 760 could have been collected was November 2004.

There is no way in hell, or heaven, that legal flask of cross # 760 would be ready for sale at the Dijon WOC in March of 2005. 

Yet flask # 760 was offered for sale in Dijon by Manolo Arias in an e-mail dated Jan 18 2004, which I received and have on file. 

The only conclusion that I can draw from this: pollen from an illegal Pk were used making in fact all early 2005 # 760 flasks illegal and the pollen parent claimed on the label a lie.


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## isaias m rolando (Feb 22, 2007)

Good point. Legal collection was May 2003 INRENA-CITES PERMITNº 2
It takes one year to stablish and flower with viable pollen, MAY 2004 . Then one more year to develop the seed pod. It WAS already MAY 2005. And Dijon was MARCH 2005....
What a magic and convenient timing of truly ilegal polen or ilegal seed pods...
"...CUANDO EL RIO HABLA ES PORQUE PIEDRAS TRAE..." Something like IF THE RIVER TALKS IS BECAUSE STONES ARE COMING....

Have a good week flowering your lovely phragmipediums.


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## NYEric (Feb 22, 2007)

*Harsh reality*

It doesn't matter. Illegal Pk plants will be distributed. ity: Hopefully some plants will make it back into the wild in protected areas for future generations to enjoy.


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## Greenthings (Feb 22, 2007)

Harsh reality is that your first sentence makes the third one a joke


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## Greenthings (Feb 22, 2007)

I spotted a few typos in posts 1 and 2

259 should be 759
260 should be 760

Jan 18 2004 should be Jan 18 2005

Sorry


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## cdub (Feb 22, 2007)

I'm still wondering why all these Pk posts are in the 'Photographs' forum. If you're not gonna show me a pic of a plant, put the thread somewhere else.


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## kentuckiense (Feb 22, 2007)

Thread moved. Carry on!

Unfortunately, looks like we'll have to wait a few years to get to the bottom of it all.


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## NYEric (Feb 22, 2007)

Greenthings said:


> Harsh reality is that your first sentence makes the third one a joke


Hey, nothing is impossible!


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## slippertalker (Feb 22, 2007)

The bottom line is that the situation will not be known until some of the seedlings bloom. It does seem clear that true kovachii is slow to mature so the wait will be 3-4 years, perhaps. The hybrids with kovachii should be quicker and we should see the results within the next year or two.

The entire matter does seem pretty fishy for a well run laboratory.....Also, the flask seedlings originally were shipped barely larger than protocorms which led to a higher death rate. Buyer beware!


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## gonewild (Feb 22, 2007)

NYEric said:


> Hopefully some plants will make it back into the wild in protected areas for future generations to enjoy.



Sad, but that will never happen in Peru unless you move down there and plant them on your own land. Then you will have to hire a guard to protect them. Then you will have to stay home to keep the guard from.........


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## gonewild (Feb 22, 2007)

slippertalker said:


> The bottom line is that the situation will not be known until some of the seedlings bloom. It does seem clear that true kovachii is slow to mature so the wait will be 3-4 years, perhaps. The hybrids with kovachii should be quicker and we should see the results within the next year or two.



P. kovachii seems to have a distinct difference in the leaf shape from other Phrags.
It would be interesting to see photos of true kovachii seedlings, true kovachii hybrids and the mislabeled seedlings to compare.

Maybe Jason can post some comparative pictures?


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## Jason Fischer (Feb 22, 2007)

*kovachii and reality*

I know I said I wouldn't reply any more regarding these flasks but things are now getting out of hand with this kind of speculation.

Peter, The words defamation and Libel come to mind. The definition of Libel: " A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's reputation."

The flasks 751 and 758 were tested as well and they are true.

Isais, The university of Minnesota used my seedling material to do their sequencing for us and it was only compared to the work done by Mark Whitten using Manriques plants.

The 'Jewel' x 'Roseline' kovachii sib cross did turn out to be wallisii x kovachii. We also sequenced that cross as well to be sure.

Now let's talk about breeeding phrags, bloom times and seed pod maturation for a moment. I have been to Peru a couple of times. I have seen wallisii in bloom in August in the Tres Cerritos area near Rioja not too far from Moyobamba. It may indeed bloom in December in Lima but has it ever occured to you Peter that at different elevations or climates it could bloom at another time? It also does not take 1 year to mature a seed pod of this species. I have selfed wallisii many times and have made hybrids with it as well. The longest it has ever taken for a seed pod to mature for me is 6 months. I have had some mature in 3 to 4 months as well depending on temperaures and the type of cross made. Also if one flask is mislabeled it doesn't necessarily mean that other flasks in reverse are mislabeled. I have an extensive lab here at Orchids Limited and every year we find a couple of mistakes we make. It is easy to do. 

It is entirely possible to collect a kovachii carefully and who knows if it had a spike or not? It might have spiked later as well but the point is that given the time line it is within reason to develop a see pod and seedlings.. A plant of walisii in one of Manolos other nurseries could have spiked say in August and the pod could have been made, matured, sowed and flasks could have been ready by March of 2003. This is almost 2 years after all. That argument simply doesn't hold water.

Timelines can be interesting to speculate on but should we? I spoke with Glen Decker in January at the Paph. Guild in California and at that time he said he had 4 plants of St. Ouen x kovachii in bud already. Two weeks ago he told me he had 10 plants in bud and the first was beginning to crack open. I remember the pictures of flasks on his website of the first tiny seedlings he brought back in March of 06. Now I could speculate on how he could grow these to blooming size in less than a year at a nursery in Hawaii especially since my plants aren't anywhere near blooming size but should I ?

I think I am a pretty good grower. I have these hybrid and species seedlings in an area with bottom heat, artificial lighting, natural light and the right kind of fertilizer. I really baby them. They are just not that big yet even though I had kovachii and wallisii x kovachii in April of 05. The other hybrids I rceived in May of 06. I am not going to doubt Glen at all even though I might be tempted to. Why? because I simply do not know the particulars of what he is doing. Hawaii is like growing in the jungle and there are very similar dynamics going on with nutritional aspects as well like ammonia and carbonic acid being present in the atmosphere. I think it is wonderful that he has some hybrids in bud and I can't wait to see the pictures on his web site when they are posted. I will also purchase some plants of both Hybrids and the straight kovachii as I want as much genetic diversity as possible in my breeding program.

I believe these forums should limit themselves to the cultivation and appreciation of the plants we all grow. People are far more important than plants in my mind. We really should treat each other better than our own plants.

Sincerely, Jerry Lee Fischer


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## Greenthings (Feb 22, 2007)

NYEric on illegal Pk plant and seed collecting in Peru: 
“It doesn't matter. Illegal Pk plants will be distributed. Hopefully some plants will make it back into the wild in protected areas for future generations to enjoy.”

I am astounded that you, an orchid grower, a hobbyist, respond in such an insensitive manner to an issue every human being should be deeply concerned about. 

Picture, if you can, a magnificent cloud forest in the Northern Peruvian Andes, where an estimated 3000 plus Phramipedium kovachii are in bloom, sprinkling the lush greenery with vibrant colors of purple. This is their home; has been for milleniums, they are surrounded by thousands of seedlings, baby Phragmipedium kovachi destined to take over from their parents in a couple of years.

Then within a few years of the discovery of this magnificent plant in November of 2001, the habitat is destroyed by greed driven men; neither a seedling, nor a mature Pk plant survived the destructive forces. I have been there when it was still untouched by men. I have seen the pictures my friends took when everything was destroyed.

Where once in excess of 3000 Phragmipedium kovachii’s proudly bloomed and baby Pk’s were made, there are only holes in the wet substrate from which hands full severed roots peek out at you and seem to say, “why, ……….why you bloody idiots??“ Mounts of wet clay are everywhere, one to each hole, many less than one foot apart, showing the imprint of a shovel blade. A sure sign that the world’s most destructive animal was here.

Such a bloody shame, and you dare to say that illegal Pk collecting does not matter??


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## Greenthings (Feb 22, 2007)

Jerry,

Please read ST posts more carefully before you make comments 
that are totaly off the mark.


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## SlipperFan (Feb 22, 2007)

Greenthings said:


> Where once in excess of 3000 Phragmipedium kovachii’s proudly bloomed and baby Pk’s were made, there are only holes in the wet substrate ...


That is beyond terrible. It makes me sick.

One wonders, How many of these 3000 Phrags are still alive. And where are they.....?????


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## gonewild (Feb 22, 2007)

SlipperFan said:


> That is beyond terrible. It makes me sick.
> 
> One wonders, How many of these 3000 Phrags are still alive. And where are they.....?????



Most are dead. In case you missed it I posted a report from Peru a while back. Phrag. kovachii -Report from Peru

But there are still wild plants in remote areas.


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## SlipperFan (Feb 22, 2007)

Yes, I remember reading that. 

But if any of these 3000 plants are still alive, in whose hands are they? Who would dare have them in their possession? How did they get them out of Peru, if they are not in Peru anymore?

Maybe I'm naive, but it boggles my mind to think of anyone I know or know of having illegal Pk in their possession.


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## SlipperFan (Feb 22, 2007)

Jason Fischer said:


> I believe these forums should limit themselves to the cultivation and appreciation of the plants we all grow. People are far more important than plants in my mind. We really should treat each other better than our own plants.


Jerry, I must disagree with you about what is appropriate on these forums. Anything that adds to my knowledge of the orchid world and what is going on it it is interesting to me, and appropriate material for discussion here. 

I do agree that we should be nice to each other. But I don't see that seeking the truth of any situation, if done dispassionately and honestly, should be seen as a threat to anyone.


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## Greenthings (Feb 22, 2007)

Jerry, let me be nice and explain to you what it says in my post.

(Please don't give me this libel crap, I know what I say and I have lots of
proof to back up what I say, even about that which I chose to call rumours.)

It did not say flask #751 and #758. Read it again, it says
"some of the flasks numbered 751 through 758 would not contain Pk species, but something else. "

Flasks "751 through 758" was mentioned because those are the Pk species listed on Manolo's first 10 flasks list I received prior to the Dijon WOC.
#759 and #760 are Pk hybrids on that same list

You found at least one Pk species flasks in that group of 8 , # 754, containing a hybrid. You said it was due to a label mix up, I believe, or a label switching error.

Two questions Jerry I hope you have the answers to:

1) Are there in your opinion, or experience, other # 754 flasks from that same first batch yours came from, that indeed contain the true Pk species?

2) Which of the two hybrids # 759 and # 760 did you find in your flask # 754??

I hope you do reply, for I am not the only one interested in hearing your answers.


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## Heather (Feb 22, 2007)

SlipperFan said:


> Jerry, I must disagree with you about what is appropriate on these forums. Anything that adds to my knowledge of the orchid world and what is going on it it is interesting to me, and appropriate material for discussion here.
> 
> I do agree that we should be nice to each other. But I don't see that seeking the truth of any situation, if done dispassionately and honestly, should be seen as a threat to anyone.



Completely agree with Dot on this - open discussion on any orchid (particularly slipper orchid) is the whole point of this forum. 

Lots of talk today at the NH society show about all that's going on in the world of Pk. The better we all understand what is going on, the better we can make decisions about how we grow the plants in the future.


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## Kyle (Feb 22, 2007)

gonewild said:


> P. kovachii seems to have a distinct difference in the leaf shape from other Phrags.
> It would be interesting to see photos of true kovachii seedlings, true kovachii hybrids and the mislabeled seedlings to compare.



Here are a group of seedlings in situ. The smallest being a bout 1.5 inch leaf span.












Kyle


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## Kyle (Feb 22, 2007)

Greenthings said:


> Then within a few years of the discovery of this magnificent plant in November of 2001, the habitat is destroyed by greed driven men; *neither a seedling*, nor a mature Pk plant survived the destructive forces. I have been there when it was still untouched by men. I have seen the pictures my friends took when everything was destroyed.



Thanks the the seedbank, the potential for PK to recover in one of the previously collected sites remains.

Here is a picture of on of the first sites where PK was discovered.






Heres a plants with a 8 or more inch leaf span at the site. There were a dozen of so small seedling as well.






Kyle


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## kentuckiense (Feb 22, 2007)

Kyle, awesome shots. I'm going to be jealous of you forever.


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## Kyle (Feb 22, 2007)

Thanks


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## Greenthings (Feb 23, 2007)

Hi Kyle,

Nice pictures.

These were all taken at the site Kovach visited and purchased his, or was it the one Harold Koopowitz and his large group were at?


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## NYEric (Feb 23, 2007)

Greenthings said:


> I am astounded that you, an orchid grower, a hobbyist, respond in such an insensitive manner to an issue every human being should be deeply concerned about.
> 
> A sure sign that the world’s most destructive animal was here.
> 
> Such a bloody shame, and you dare to say that illegal Pk collecting does not matter??


Greenthings, I am as concerned as anyone here about habitat and natural destruction. What does not matter is that plants that were sold as Pk were not Pk. If they were not Pk then why would they be illegal?!? Man is, in fact, the world's most destructive animal. But, if you believe in evolution, then man is doing exactly what is man's natural course. To change [and albeit possibly wreck] the environment. Remember the scorpion and the frog crossing the river story, Frog: "Why did you sting me when you knew we would drown?" Scorpion: "Because I'm a scorpion, that's what I do!" You shouldn't expect man to be totally in tune w/ or respect the environment any more than you should expect an elephant to fly. What's done is done, let's hope some efforts are made to repair the damage.


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## Kyle (Feb 23, 2007)

Peter,

The two pictures were take at different sites.

The first pictures were taken about 4 hours from the trail head at a site that appeared the have not had any plants collected from.

The second pictures is from a site that was less then an hour from the trail head. One of the first sites discovered.

Did Kovach ever see the plants in situ? My understanding was he was only at the road side vendor.

Kyle


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## Greenthings (Feb 23, 2007)

NYEric: "If they were not Pk then why would they be illegal?!?" 

Yes Eric, non-Pk are illegal, if illegal Pk parents are involved, either as pollen parent, or pod parent. 

Kyle, what is known as the original site is only in one location, namely where Kovach purchased his Pk plants. My question, "is that where you took the picture with the title "originalsite?" The one showing the sloped hill? Do you have a picture of FMB's kiosk by any chance??


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## Greenthings (Feb 23, 2007)

Heather, anyone, I have tried Edit Signature a few times since yesterday, I want to have my name under Greenthings where it now says bloom, I can not get it to work. I have typed my name in the Edit Signature Box, Saved it.
Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Peter Croezen


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## kentuckiense (Feb 23, 2007)

Click 'User CP' then look for 'Custom User Title'


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## Kyle (Feb 23, 2007)

Peter,

I don't think my picture is of the very first that the plants were found. Probably the second. My guide didn't speak english and my spanish is poor. It is far from the highway, about an hour hike at a good pace.

I never stopped at any roadside vendors in the area. 

The last sentace in your message is a little garbled and doesn't make any sense to me.

Kyle


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## Greenthings (Feb 23, 2007)

Kentuckiense, thanks

Kyle, 
Correct, that picture is not from the original site.

The last sentence should have been deleted before I pressed the PQR button. It was part of an answer to your own question, namely that Kovach was taken to the original site by farmer FMB, according to one of the many different stories Kovach told.

Have you any idea at all where you were in relation to a nearby village, or big city? If not, ok, it is not important. I am just curious. 

Anyone, please where is the tool that allows me to modify my own post,
after I have posted them?

I am new to this forum and do not know yet where to find all the handles and buttons


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## gonewild (Feb 23, 2007)

NYEric said:


> Greenthings, I am as concerned as anyone here about habitat and natural destruction. What does not matter is that plants that were sold as Pk were not Pk. If they were not Pk then why would they be illegal?!? Man is, in fact, the world's most destructive animal. But, if you believe in evolution, then man is doing exactly what is man's natural course. To change [and albeit possibly wreck] the environment. Remember the scorpion and the frog crossing the river story, Frog: "Why did you sting me when you knew we would drown?" Scorpion: "Because I'm a scorpion, that's what I do!" You shouldn't expect man to be totally in tune w/ or respect the environment any more than you should expect an elephant to fly. What's done is done, let's hope some efforts are made to repair the damage.



Nor should you expect termites not to eat wood. 
Destruction is in the eye of the beholder. 
Most humans that believe you should not cut down a tree don't live in a forest.


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## Greenthings (Feb 23, 2007)

Hi,

I found the edit button, thanks for your patience


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## gonewild (Feb 23, 2007)

Kyle said:


> Here are a group of seedlings in situ. The smallest being a bout 1.5 inch leaf span.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for posting the seedling photos Kyle.

Here is a picture of one of my kovachii seedlings that is about 1.5 inch leaf span that has been growing in bright light. 






You can see that in both pictures the small seedlings have the very wide, short leaves that come to a broad point. That leaf characteristic is also evident in the larger plants in your photos. 

The leaf shape is also shown well in the photos Ron took in Lima of Manrique's legal plants. Here is a quote from Ron-NY's post:

"It was in Miraflores that I got to see mature Phrag kovachii. I got to see five of them that are being used for breeding"


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## Ron-NY (Feb 23, 2007)

Lance the hybrid seedlings carry the same shape leaf and wide characteristic. There was a post somewhere where the problem seedlings were posted. I haven't been able to find that thread but the seedlings didn't have any charachteristics of kovachii. They were tall and narrow leaves and looked like boisserianum seedlings. I have only seen the hybrids that Piping Rock has and they all have kovachii leaf characteristics. 

here is a PK X Cape Sunset but no longer a small seedling size




I am amazed how fast some of these are growing. The above picture is a month old and that plant now has a 12" leaf spread and the newest leaf has gained another inch or more in length.


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## gonewild (Feb 23, 2007)

> Ron-NY said:
> 
> 
> > Lance the hybrid seedlings carry the same shape leaf and wide characteristic. There was a post somewhere where the problem seedlings were posted. I haven't been able to find that thread but the seedlings didn't have any charachteristics of kovachii. They were tall and narrow leaves and looked like boisserianum seedlings. I have only seen the hybrids that Piping Rock has and they all have kovachii leaf characteristics.
> ...



Wow hybrid vigor really works! You can still see the kovachii influence in the leaf. How do you feel the growth of your kovachii hybrid compares to growth of other Phrag hybrids? I wish Piping Rock would sell flasks of kovachii hybrids.


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## Ron-NY (Feb 23, 2007)

gonewild said:


> Wow hybrid vigor really works! You can still see the kovachii influence in the leaf. How do you feel the growth of your kovachii hybrid compares to growth of other Phrag hybrids? I wish Piping Rock would sell flasks of kovachii hybrids.



Depends on which hybrids we are talking about. I have all four of Piping Rock hybrids. I have found that for me the Cape Sunset and Saint Ouen have grown rapidly and steadily. The other two have grown faster than the species but for me have been very slow growers. I have found that the two rapid growing ones have outpaced most other hybrid seedlings I have grown. But of course I really haven't monitored the others as closely as I have monitored these.

Did you check directly with Glen Decker if they have any flasks available of the hybrids?


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## suss16 (Feb 23, 2007)

I have one seedling each of the St. Ouen and the Cape Sunset (from PR). For me the Cape Sunset is growing much faster - and has wide leaves for the size of the plant. The St. Ouen has narrower leaves. Both of them are sending out new leaves long before the previous leaf has finished growing. They are still in the original spag. but plan to transfer to S/H this weekend.


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## gonewild (Feb 23, 2007)

Ron-NY said:


> Depends on which hybrids we are talking about. I have all four of Piping Rock hybrids. I have found that for me the Cape Sunset and Saint Ouen have grown rapidly and steadily. The other two have grown faster than the species but for me have been very slow growers. I have found that the two rapid growing ones have outpaced most other hybrid seedlings I have grown. But of course I really haven't monitored the others as closely as I have monitored these.
> 
> Did you check directly with Glen Decker if they have any flasks available of the hybrids?



Can you post pictures of the plants side by side to compare the leaves?

Yes, I have asked Glen about hybrid flasks, he says he plans to offer them but I think it is on Peuvian time.


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## gonewild (Feb 23, 2007)

suss16 said:


> I have one seedling each of the St. Ouen and the Cape Sunset (from PR). For me the Cape Sunset is growing much faster - and has wide leaves for the size of the plant. The St. Ouen has narrower leaves. Both of them are sending out new leaves long before the previous leaf has finished growing. They are still in the original spag. but plan to transfer to S/H this weekend.



Can you post a picture showing them side by side?
When you repot them pay special attention to see how the roots compare to other species or hybrids.


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## suss16 (Feb 23, 2007)

I will take some pics this weekend for comparison and post them.


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## Heather (Feb 23, 2007)

Greenthings said:


> Heather, anyone, I have tried Edit Signature a few times since yesterday, I want to have my name under Greenthings where it now says bloom, I can not get it to work. I have typed my name in the Edit Signature Box, Saved it.
> Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Peter Croezen



We didn't have your account set up for a custom user title. It is now set and I inserted your name.


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## Ron-NY (Feb 23, 2007)

gonewild said:


> Can you post pictures of the plants side by side to compare the leaves?
> 
> Yes, I have asked Glen about hybrid flasks, he says he plans to offer them but I think it is on Peuvian time.



Here is three of them The small one is the Walter Schomberg cross, next to it is Cape Sunset and Saint Ouen is on the other end. Living Fire looks identical to the Walter Schomberg.


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## Greenthings (Feb 23, 2007)

Hi Heather,

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Peter


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## NYEric (Feb 24, 2007)

suss16 said:


> They are still in the original spag. but plan to transfer to S/H this weekend.


I dont know about that move. Mine dont seem to be doing as well in my S/H as the ones shown in sphag.


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## Greenthings (Feb 25, 2007)

Jason Fischer said:


> .....snip........Now let's talk about breeeding phrags, bloom times and seed pod maturation for a moment. I have been to Peru a couple of times. I have seen wallisii in bloom in August in the Tres Cerritos area near Rioja not too far from Moyobamba. It may indeed bloom in December in Lima but has it ever occured to you Peter that at different elevations or climates it could bloom at another time? It also does not take 1 year to mature a seed pod of this species. I have selfed wallisii many times and have made hybrids with it as well. The longest it has ever taken for a seed pod to mature for me is 6 months. I have had some mature in 3 to 4 months as well depending on temperaures and the type of cross made. ........snip..........
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## bwester (Feb 25, 2007)

Ok you guys, you need to move your argument to something a little more private. This is not an appropriate place for that.
-blake


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## Heather (Feb 25, 2007)

Carry on...nicely please.


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## gonewild (Feb 25, 2007)

So my question was....

Is there a maturation time difference between species seed pods as compared to hybrid seed pods? In other words does hybrid vigor come into play in hybrid seed development.

Relating to kovachii....
Would a hybrid cross seed pod mature faster than a straight kovachii pollination? Assuming both are under the same culture at the same altitude.


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## Greenthings (Feb 25, 2007)

Heather said:


> Carry on...nicely please.




Thanks Heather , that is what we were doing.

peter


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## Greenthings (Feb 25, 2007)

gonewild said:


> So my question was....
> 
> Is there a maturation time difference between species seed pods as compared to hybrid seed pods? In other words does hybrid vigor come into play in hybrid seed development.
> 
> ...




Hi lance,

I truly do not know the answer, for I only propagate species. I would suggest that there may well be a maturation time difference, compared to the species, depending what other parent is used.

As far as the second question, let me ask those who did the hybridizing
for I never gave it a thought and consequently never asked them.


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## John M (Feb 25, 2007)




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## gonewild (Feb 25, 2007)

John M said:


>



You bought popcorn during intermission?


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## John M (Feb 25, 2007)

Yup! It's amazing what you can get on the Internet! : )


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## Jason Fischer (Feb 25, 2007)

Hey guys,

Just for the record, I'm not the one who made all of these posts! It was my father, Jerry! He's just using my ID. In any case, he's done posting to what seems like a never-ending-story.

Best wishes,

Jason


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## NYEric (Feb 26, 2007)

I wonder if Glen has the spiking hybrids for sale I think I must call him today!


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## Heather (Feb 26, 2007)

NYEric said:


> I wonder if Glen has the spiking hybrids for sale I think I must call him today!



I do not think they are for sale, Eric, he's just got the first 10 in spike. I think he's going to want to actually SEE what was created before selling it to the likes of you. :wink:


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## likespaphs (Feb 26, 2007)

right. and even then, he probably knows deep down in his heart that he should GIVE them to me...


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## NYEric (Feb 26, 2007)

That's ridiculous! I think I have just as good an eye to SEE as he does!:rollhappy:


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## Jason Fischer (Feb 26, 2007)

*Correction*

I need to make a correction. In an earlier post I stated that Glen Decker from Piping Rock Orchids brought flasks of kovachii and kovachii hybrids into the U.S. in March of 06. That is incorrect. They were brought in the month of Dec. 05 so it is quite possible to have hybrid plants in bud at this time. My apologies to Glen and members of Slippertalk.

Sincerely, Jerry Lee Fischer


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## Ron-NY (Feb 26, 2007)

I know mine were small seedlings when I got them in July o6 and 2 out of the four crosses have grown amazingly fast (Saint Ouen and Cape Sunset). I have seen the ones in spike and the leaf span isn't any larger than my largest leaf, they have the seedling leaves and 4 mature leaves, mine are working on the second to last leaf. So I am now guessing mine are six months or less away from being blooming size if they continue to grow at their current rate. I don't know if these will bloom when mature or if there will be a seasonal factor.

Glen's were the largest from the flasks, grown in Hawaii and mine are growing in my kitchen window here in the northeast.


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## John M (Feb 26, 2007)

Ron; that is exciting! I hope that you get flowers by fall. Actually, it might be best if your plants waited. A summer blooming might not produce the best shape and colour. Phrags like besseae and schlimii do seem to be sensitive to temp and produce their best flowers in the cooler months.
BTW; was it you who posted (somewhere), a long time ago that Glen had seen an alba kovachii in bud? Any news on that? Thanks, John


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## Ron-NY (Feb 26, 2007)

John M said:


> Ron; that is exciting! I hope that you get flowers by fall. Actually, it might be best if your plants waited. A summer blooming might not produce the best shape and colour. Phrags like besseae and schlimii do seem to be sensitive to temp and produce their best flowers in the cooler months.
> BTW; was it you who posted (somewhere), a long time ago that Glen had seen an alba kovachii in bud? Any news on that? Thanks, John



I had misquoted info at that time. Glen, I believe, had seen a picture or heard info of a report of an alba. I have heard nothing more on that but will inquire to if any more have been heard of it.


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## Greenthings (Feb 26, 2007)

gonewild said:


> So my question was....
> 
> Is there a maturation time difference between species seed pods as compared to hybrid seed pods? In other words does hybrid vigor come into play in hybrid seed development.
> 
> ...



Hi Lance,

I promised that I would find out for you. Here are three replies I received 
from my friends who have experience:

I submitted your questions to three experienced friends, here are their answers


1) I'd have to look closely at my data, but as a first
guess I'd say no. I routinely expect to get
maturation times to be the same on a plant independent
of what pollen was placed on it. For example,
caudatum x slf and caudatum x longifolium both mature
at about the same time. the longifolium cross may
mature slightly earlier, but I suspect that this is
due to a less productive ovary and not the cross
itself (a weak pod of caudatum self will mature
quicker than a strong caudatum pod.).

2) Not sure on kovachii, itself ... As for other hybrids, it's usually 3 months.

3)I found out that the maturation time is linked to the
parental mother maturation habits .
Usually Pk seed pods mature in 3 or 4 months; hybrids using Pk as 
the pod parent also mature in 3 to 4 months.
P besseae hybrids mature in the same time.


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## Heather (Feb 26, 2007)

Dare I ask but...does anyone have a photo of P. k. 'Laura'? 
Cannot seem to find that one in particular though I thought I had in the past....


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## gonewild (Feb 26, 2007)

Heather said:


> Dare I ask but...does anyone have a photo of P. k. 'Laura'?
> Cannot seem to find that one in particular though I thought I had in the past....


 I think it is on Piping Rocks webpage?


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## Greenthings (Feb 26, 2007)

Jason Fischer said:


> I need to make a correction. In an earlier post I stated that Glen Decker from Piping Rock Orchids brought flasks of kovachii and kovachii hybrids into the U.S. in March of 06. That is incorrect. They were brought in the month of Dec. 05 so it is quite possible to have hybrid plants in bud at this time. My apologies to Glen and members of Slippertalk.
> 
> Sincerely, Jerry Lee Fischer




Since these erroneous remarks in your original post were directed at me, I accept your apology. 

peter


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## Heather (Feb 26, 2007)

gonewild said:


> I think it is on Piping Rocks webpage?



Yeah, I haven't been able to find it...will keep looking. Thanks.


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## gonewild (Feb 26, 2007)

Greenthings said:


> Hi Lance,
> 
> I promised that I would find out for you. Here are three replies I received
> from my friends who have experience:
> ...



Thanks, Now I need to go back in the thread and figure out why I asked the question.  
I think it was about the dispute about timing of the first sowings of kovachii? Was the Peruflora hybrid in question set on a wallisii or kovachii?


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## gonewild (Feb 26, 2007)

Heather said:


> Yeah, I haven't been able to find it...will keep looking. Thanks.



It is also on the cover of Piping Rocks paper catalog.


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## Heather (Feb 26, 2007)

ok, didn't realize that was 'Laura' as it wasn't labeled as such on the website. If you can demonstrate that it is that clone I would appreciate it. 

Thanks Lance.


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## gonewild (Feb 26, 2007)

Heather said:


> ok, didn't realize that was 'Laura' as it wasn't labeled as such on the website.
> 
> Thanks Lance.



An interesting note about kovachii flowers.....
Glen told me in reality most of the flowers on all the plants are basically the same and most of the color variations are very slight at most. 
Which is what I would expect.

Different lighting at the time a photo is made will completely change the color of the flowers. It is very unusual and interesting the color variations Peruflora's 5 plants represent.


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## gonewild (Feb 26, 2007)

Heather said:


> If you can demonstrate that it is that clone I would appreciate it.
> 
> Thanks Lance.



I'm not sure what you mean?


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## Heather (Feb 26, 2007)

gonewild said:


> I'm not sure what you mean?



Which photo is Laura?


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## gonewild (Feb 26, 2007)

Heather said:


> Which photo is Laura?



Oh sorry, brain fart!  

I found an old email where Glen confirmed that Laura is the one on his Homepage


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## Ron-NY (Feb 26, 2007)

talking about PK color, I came across this one on a Forum via a google image search. I had never seen this pic before Found it here http://www.orchidspng.com/discus/messages/16/51.html?1083763319


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## Heather (Feb 26, 2007)

gonewild said:


> Oh sorry, brain fart!
> 
> I found an old email where Glen confirmed that Laura is the one on his Homepage



..I guess I need to check file names and honestly, in a week it won't matter cause the hybrid will be up (I hope!) so I guess I will just hide my anal nature for a week and not worry ahbout the parents invoived.


It is HARD!!!!!!!! mind you all!


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## Greenthings (Feb 26, 2007)

gonewild said:


> Thanks, Now I need to go back in the thread and figure out why I asked the question.
> I think it was about the dispute about timing of the first sowings of kovachii? Was the Peruflora hybrid in question set on a wallisii or kovachii?



Post #51 in this thread
Peter


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## gonewild (Feb 26, 2007)

Greenthings said:


> Post #51 in this thread
> Peter



Yeah, that is the question i asked But why did I ask it?
I think I was wondering if the kovachii seed pods were hybrids rather than species how that would enter into the time tables being argued about.
But it does not sound like it would be a factor, or would it?


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## Greenthings (Feb 27, 2007)

gonewild said:


> Yeah, that is the question i asked But why did I ask it?
> I think I was wondering if the kovachii seed pods were hybrids rather than species how that would enter into the time tables being argued about.
> But it does not sound like it would be a factor, or would it?



Lance, just read all the posts in this thread again. The answer to your question is in there, I am convinced.

peter.















I got it from your post


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## Greenthings (Feb 27, 2007)

gonewild said:


> An interesting note about kovachii flowers.....
> Glen told me in reality most of the flowers on all the plants are basically the same and most of the color variations are very slight at most.
> Which is what I would expect.
> 
> Different lighting at the time a photo is made will completely change the color of the flowers. It is very unusual and interesting the color variations Peruflora's 5 plants represent.




Lee Moore, INRENA licensed PK propagator number 3, has stated that those color variations of Peruflora's 5 plants are in fact the color changes one flower goes through from opening to dying. 
Alfredo Manrique, when I asked him has confirmed it to me. I believe they said each flowers start out as dark purple and ends up as light pink. I do not remember the sequence and could be wrong, it may be L to D
peter


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## John M (Feb 27, 2007)

Ron-NY said:


> I had misquoted info at that time. Glen, I believe, had seen a picture or heard info of a report of an alba. I have heard nothing more on that but will inquire to if any more have been heard of it.



Thanks Ron. It would be great if that rumour turned out to be true. I hope so! I hope that those genes get into the Phrag. breeding programs of people like Chuck, Glen and Jerry. 7 inch pure white slipper flowers would be awesome!


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