# Mommy dearest!



## Shiva (Aug 10, 2012)

A new family living under my balcony. The yellow-orange one tells me the father was that blond cat visiting my property earlier this spring. He disappeared suddenly, I guess after getting his way with the lady. The picture could be better, but I didn't want to scare the cats off while they fed.


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## nikv (Aug 10, 2012)

Aw, how cute!


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## SlipperFan (Aug 10, 2012)

Cute kitties. Are they tame?


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## likespaphs (Aug 10, 2012)

feral?
is there a trap/neuter/release up there?


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## Justin (Aug 10, 2012)

they can become a nuisance...suggest engaging a local group to have them spayed before a colony is established.


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## Shiva (Aug 11, 2012)

I live in an agricultural areas so we have both feral and domestic cats around. The population is stable and they do a good job of controlling the rodent population so there is no need to neuter them. I had a different family last year and by spring, they all moved to a different territory. These new kittens will probably spend winter around the house and I usually treat them with left over meat. They eat absolutely everything. So less garbage to roll out on the curb.
Winter is very hard here so not all cats will survive into spring. 
Earlier this week, I saw mom followed by her four kittens showing them a safe way to drink in the river that runs beside my house. In a month or so, she'll probably be gone leaving them to fend for themselves.


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## likespaphs (Aug 11, 2012)

i understand what you're saying, but they are an invasive organism
i like cats and would not want to see them culled, but they destroy bird and other native varmit populations


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## Shiva (Aug 11, 2012)

likespaphs said:


> i understand what you're saying, but they are an invasive organism
> i like cats and would not want to see them culled, but they destroy bird and other native varmit populations



In an environment where most predators have been killed off, cats are the only ones left to keep small animal populations in check. As for birds, there is no lack of them here. If you say you like cats, then you have to understand that eating birds and small rodents is what they do in nature. They didn't evolve to eat food in cans. The real world is not Walt Disney. Predators eat the weak and the foolish, allowing their preys to remain strong on the larger scale. And finally, I'd rather have cats around the house than rats gnawing at the wood inside my walls àt 2 AM in the morning in the winter.


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## ohio-guy (Aug 11, 2012)

I have a different perspective than you do. The cats we introduced here are not native (and neither are the rats that came with the europeans) and while it may be "natural" for cats to hunt birds and vermin, this is not their natural environment, so the local native birds are not their natural prey. Native songbirds have declined markedly in recent years in the US (and Canada), and feral cats are a big part of the problem. Feral cats that succumb to the "harsh environment" are also an indication that the environment is not really a natural one for them. I don't think it is doing them any "kindness" to let them live out a short life, eeking out an existence as marginal feral animals decimating a natural population of songbirds and small rodents and reproducing uncontrolled to keep the cycle going. Neuter and release programs can at least reduce the feral population a little, and keep from introducing more kittens into the cycle. So far as the rodents that get into our houses, our indoor pet cats can keep them in check. 
I am not meaning this as a personal attack about your feelings on the matter, just trying to give a different view point.


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## Shiva (Aug 11, 2012)

ohio-guy said:


> I have a different perspective than you do. The cats we introduced here are not native (and neither are the rats that came with the europeans) and while it may be "natural" for cats to hunt birds and vermin, this is not their natural environment, so the local native birds are not their natural prey. Native songbirds have declined markedly in recent years in the US (and Canada), and feral cats are a big part of the problem. Feral cats that succumb to the "harsh environment" are also an indication that the environment is not really a natural one for them. I don't think it is doing them any "kindness" to let them live out a short life, eeking out an existence as marginal feral animals decimating a natural population of songbirds and small rodents and reproducing uncontrolled to keep the cycle going. Neuter and release programs can at least reduce the feral population a little, and keep from introducing more kittens into the cycle. So far as the rodents that get into our houses, our indoor pet cats can keep them in check.
> I am not meaning this as a personal attack about your feelings on the matter, just trying to give a different view point.



Cats can't fly! So the birds they catch are either dead, sick or careless. Predators are there to eliminate the weak, which maintains the whole bird population in top shape. Same for mice and so on. That's a sign of ecological health. And I personnally don't see any decline of birds around here, song birds or otherwise, and any decline in their population would probably be a consequence of people moving endlessly into their territory. Every spring and fall they (the birds) come by the tens of thousands to feed in the fields behind my house. As for my cats taking care of the local rodents, forget it! They are aristocats . They only eat the best food man can produce for them. No rats or mice on their menu, ever. Better use mouse or rat traps, and throw the dead bodies outside for normal cats to eat.:evil: 

And don't we like to accuse others of our sins? I've been told that a seal overpopulation is responsible for the near disparition of cods in the Atlantic. Funny, but before Europeans came to the Grand Banks, there were seals and cods in the gazillions. 

And I don't take your comments as personnal. I don't feel that important in the grand scheme of things.


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## likespaphs (Aug 11, 2012)

we're gonna have to agree to disagree
except on the following:

aren't slipper orchids grand?!


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## SlipperFan (Aug 11, 2012)

Interesting, we are talking about overpopulation of cats, seals, rodents, etc, but the real overpopulation is with humans. Now I'll get off my soapbox...


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Aug 11, 2012)

Predators are not "there" for anything....unless you are into some kind of biblical mindset. Ecosystems evolve, with a mix of prey and predators. In undisturbed systems, they balance out. Feral cats are not a part of any New World ecosystem, nor are they parts of any ecosystems outside of areas where their ancestral wild ancestors occurred- Europe, central Asia, and northern Africa. Feral cats are considered among the worst of invasive species in many areas. Now, I am the first person to say that "alien" species do NOT equal "invasive", in and of itself, and in many cases, alien species have fit into new ecosystems harmlessly...just look at European pigeons in US cities. But cats are very destructive. You are in Canada...and feral cats may very well be competing successfully against your native foxes and Mustelids, not to mention lynx and bobcat.


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## Ruth (Aug 12, 2012)

> but the real overpopulation is with humans


AMEN!


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## bullsie (Aug 12, 2012)

Shiva said:


> A new family living under my balcony. The yellow-orange one tells me the father was that blond cat visiting my property earlier this spring. He disappeared suddenly, I guess after getting his way with the lady. The picture could be better, but I didn't want to scare the cats off while they fed.
> 
> Since male cats range about in search of ladies, the likelyhood is that the blond cat has died. The elements and illnesses can take a heavy toll. But in North America there are quite a bit of native creatures that dine on cat. Where you live Shiva the lynx, bobcat, owls, fishers, bears, hawks and if you have coyote and wolves, would all make an easy meal of felines. Did I mention foxes that will take them out of barns, sheds, off windowsills, and closed in porches?
> 
> Male cats live a short life. Their ladies and offspring live much the same short life. We see feral cats regularly because people throw cats out regularly. It's not a life they choose, its the one humans give them. Most feral populations succeed where humans live in abundance. But even so, the turn-around of individuals is quite quick. I feel sad for the kitties. Its a shame their owner didn't think of them as living feeling creatures instead of disposable garbage.


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## Shiva (Aug 12, 2012)

I can understand all you points, and even share some, but cats came along to America on the very same ships our forefathers (and mothers) did. Does that make us invasive as well? Every species is by nature invasive, if given the chance. I agree their lives are short in the wild, everywhere they live in the world, which is why they have so many offsprings. As for lynx, coyotes and other predators of cats, there are none where I live. Maybe in the boreal forest up north, but not here. Their greatest ''predator'' here is the automobile. Yes, they have a hard life, but it's the same for predators everywhere. In cities and suburbs where there is a lot more to feed on, more cats survive and can become a pest, and programs to catch and neuter them are wise. And last, let's not forget we are the apex predator, we multiply in vast numbers too and may meet the same fate of eeking a living if we keep pushing our environment to the brink. And we have been lucky for the few last thousand years. Every now and then, though, on larger time scales, our world and universe show ample capacities to write us off... Despite our immense arrogance, it wouldn't take much to send our civilization into chaos and possibly oblivion. And I'd bet cats would survive! :evil:


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## bullsie (Aug 12, 2012)

I'm pretty sure if you ask any Native American they would agree that the bulk of us here are invasive! Either way, as humans, we should take our responsibilities seriously. Unfortunately, that will never come. Even the criminal doesn't blame his actions for imprisonment. We will always blame everything and everyone else down to extinction. 

Shiva, how did you manage few predators where you are at? Hadn't I heard of Montreal - a few miles south of you - having fox problems?


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## Shiva (Aug 12, 2012)

bullsie said:


> I'm pretty sure if you ask any Native American they would agree that the bulk of us here are invasive! Either way, as humans, we should take our responsibilities seriously. Unfortunately, that will never come. Even the criminal doesn't blame his actions for imprisonment. We will always blame everything and everyone else down to extinction.
> 
> Shiva, how did you manage few predators where you are at? Hadn't I heard of Montreal - a few miles south of you - having fox problems?



The short answer is maybe they are around but I've never seen one since I moved here 15 years ago. I know there are deer, and lots of migratory birds stop here twice a year. It's possible that there are some foxes south of Montreal. The area is much more wooded as we near the american border and then there are the mountains to the south.
My guess is that our own true wildlife is up north in the Laurantian mountains. There are many and some major roads going east and west in my area that can constitute significant barriers to wildlife.


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## Shiva (Aug 12, 2012)

likespaphs said:


> we're gonna have to agree to disagree
> except on the following:
> 
> aren't slipper orchids grand?!



Slippers are the most invasive of all, as far as I am concerned. But that's an invasion I will promote and enjoy to my death bed. :drool:


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## ohio-guy (Aug 12, 2012)

Talking about Europeans being invasive made me remember a book I heard of recently. I believe it is called 1492 (or maybe 1493?) and it chronicles the changes to the Americas after the colonization by Europeans. Things you would never even think of had impact, like European earthworms ( apparently native worms were non existent after the glacier periods, and the new earthworms changed the structure of the forest ground litter affecting the undergrowth...). And so far as the human population, it is estimated we wiped out up to 90% of the indigenous peoples with our diseases mostly. 
But you have a point that any species can be considered exploitive of new environments. And even the indigenous peoples here came from else where too, albeit thousands of years earlier, and no doubt had their own impact of the "New World".


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## Shiva (Aug 12, 2012)

And now that we have nowhere else to go, away from it all on this world, what do we do? Down to the sea? Or up to Mars and the moon, along with our housecats, dogs, snakes, lizards, orchids and who knows what else? (please no mealies or mosquitoes.) I can see myself in a condo on the moon looking at our beautiful earth. It would all seem so clean and ordered from up there.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Aug 12, 2012)

NO MORE WIRE HANGERS! NO MORE WIRE HANGERS! :rollhappy:

Ah, feral cats. Got truck loads of them here as well. The go unregulated since there are no laws about their control in Japan. Also, if you have an infestation (and some areas are truly infested) you are not allowed to bother them in anyway, in fact there are cat protection societies to monitor feral cat/human interactions. If you find a new litter in your area you are allowed to humanely collect them and bring them to the town office. You will have to sign a document which will go on record. Then they will be euthanized. 

The sad part is this isn't an animal problem, it is as usual a human problem, as in we created it and promote it. As this world is "developed" more and more with endless human structures dominating landscapes (notably roads), it become less and less habitable by all living things - especially small animals. Time will tell where this trend is headed...


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## NYEric (Aug 13, 2012)

Where Michael-Shiva lives I would be surprised to see how cats survive outdoors in the Winter. Deep snow every year, although now that we're set on melting our icecaps I'm not sure how that will continue!


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## Dido (Aug 13, 2012)

Nice ones, I would need another one, but you are a little bit to far for me. 

There are cats who can survive this cold, we have a native wild cat here in germany it is very rare, but I heard some living around my place where i am located. 

You have a big Cat which lives in Russia too, they are happy with this temp. :evil:

Some people call it Tiger, others the biggest cat in the worldoke:


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## Shiva (Aug 13, 2012)

They are real tough hombres. The father of these kittens had to fight epic battles to keep the female to himself. A couple or morning, I saw him outside soaking up the sun and licking his blood matted fur. A beautiful golden cat by the way. I also saw one of his challengers with the tip of his tail bitten off.
As for winter, There used to be one living behind the house under a little shelter, his tail wrapped around him. He would sleep through nights of -30°C, then get up in the morning and make his round. 
As you say in the US, freedom isn't free!


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## Erythrone (Aug 13, 2012)

They are so cute, Michel!!!

I am with you, Ohio-Guy. That is why my cats were kept indoor. I am concern about birds destruction, although cats are not the only culprits.

well, if Shiva doesn't live near forests and shrubs, I don't think the cats will destroyed a lot of songbirds... Many farmlands just don't have the right habitat for a lot or species...

Even where forests are more important today than 10 or 20 ago, like in the Eastern Townships, population of many birds is declining. I just read a new study a few weeks ago. The biologist who wrote the paper just don't know why so many species are declining here. Some are recovering, like the Pileated Woodpecker. For Canada Warbler, we know that the problem is the desctuction of winter habitat. We also know that many species needs dead wood- but since Pileated Woodpecker is back I don't think it is a real problem. But for many other species, we just don't know.


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## Shiva (Aug 13, 2012)

Dead wood attract insects; insects attract birds. If you remove the deadwood or burnt wood so as not to ''let it go to waste'', you upset the balance and birds don't find anough food to eat. I have a section in my back yard where I trow all the old branches and scrap wood (untreated) so that insects will thrive and the birds will come, and they do come.


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## biothanasis (Aug 13, 2012)

Lovely kittens!!

Nice discussion too!!


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## Clark (Aug 13, 2012)

Flies and ticks are not a worry?
Problem with the feral cats in my neighborhood.

The hummer that was floating around here 2 years ago, I'm blaming one of the cats...


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## Shiva (Aug 13, 2012)

Clark said:


> The hummer that was floating around here 2 years ago, I'm blaming one of the cats...



Time to find a lawyer for the suspect!


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## cnycharles (Aug 15, 2012)

I think that the reason that there are so many coyotes in upstate ny and other areas is that they found the feral and other cats and are doing quite well. Cats don't seem to recognize the 'danger' and are a quick meal if they don't move it... cats can clean out populations of chipmunks if allowed since they are also fairly brave, but then they and the red squirrels aren't getting into people's greenhouses and destroying thousands of dollars worth of plants/orchids.

We have had different invaders at our greenhouses at work, and the cats in the neighborhood can't do anything about them - woodchucks, raccoons and skunks! The first and last have been trapped in different ranges, while one raccoon was caught underneath a black plastic crate and encouraged to walk towards the door we were pushing the crate along towards, and then the crate was lifted up allowing the masked invader to amble towards his or her home  . some of the woodchucks weren't so lucky... apparently the native burmese population thinks that woodchuck is quite a delicacy


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