# paph armeniacum experiment



## cnycharles (Dec 8, 2008)

I read some of the posts that described and pictured some armeniacums and maybe some micranthums in baskets with live sphagnum, and I decided to try an experiment. one other post or article I read talked about someone who had placed chunks of limestone I think in the bottom of a wire basket, then some other material along with chopped leaf material and then topped with live sphagnum. I had been at a binghamton, ny orchid society meeting where the speaker was talking about using sheet moss from downed trees and rocks out in the forest and was growing masdies and such on rocks covered with live sheet moss and placing in some shallow water. I figured I could make up something pretty close to what was described in the article.

I have some 4" or so square clay unglazed quarry tiles that I use to line my oven for making pizza and other things, put one of them in the bottom of a square basket I'd made from mesh fencing wire. On top I put some small chunks of granite from ditches near the adirondack park border (can't take anything out of the park....), put a bunch of mesic forest leaves that I chopped up with some scissors and topped with some sheet moss. all the leaves and moss came from my Uncle's farm (after scraping away the snow covering the stuff...). 

I've only used seaweed fertilizer and humic acid additives from organic farming stores, and the plants have responded! (one other plant I put in a smaller plastic mesh container with a larger chunk of flat rock in the bottom) I had noticed a small growth out of the main growth in the bigger pot then a new one on the top of the media, then last week noticed two shoots out of the side of the 'pot'. the smaller container there are two shoots coming directly from the side of the flowering growth. in the past, I would have problems with new armeniacum growths turning black a little while after they had emerged from the top of the media. I was worried that both of these plants would eventually die if no new growths survived so felt I had to try something different. both need some new chopped leaves and a better covering of sheet moss (found a huge supply very close to here in the wet along the old erie canal trail on old, fallen trees *also where tasty shelf mushrooms pop out on the fallen trees...) but I have plenty of that. 
they may not look overly great, but new growth is a heck of a lot better than black ones!  






plant that flowered and posted here last winter/spring from main street orchids





plant from jim rice orchids that also flowered same time as above

I did the same thing with a paph micranthum that was placed in a different, warmer growing area, but I haven't kept it as moist as the armeniacums and I need to change the media or add more to let it to hold moisture a little longer. it hasn't really moved since the change, and looks a little dry


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## SlipperFan (Dec 8, 2008)

This is very interesting. It seems to go along the lines of what I've been thinking about lately -- i.e., if Paphs and Phrags, for the most part, grow in leaf litter and moss on a rocky substrate, why do they need to be repotted every year or two? Unless they grow out of their pot, of course. But in nature, no one repots them -- mother nature just furnishes new layers of leaf litter. So if they are potted in a material that doesn't break down and turn to mush, wouldn't that be better for them?


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## Rick (Dec 8, 2008)

When they get new leaf litter they also get a fresh supply of nutrients. Both directly and indirectly as fungal and bacterial species breakdown the fresh material. I visited several talks on the fungal communities in leaf litters at a recent ESA conference.

The composition of these communities changes pretty drastically with depth (and age) of the leaf litter.

Its pretty complex, but needless to say, an old mix of recalcitrant materials will not behave anywhere near a leaf litter and live moss mix. And the nutrient flow into orchids will also be different.

It may be that the nutrients that paphs extract from the soil may be more dependent on the nature of the micro community rather than the nature of hte fertilizer we give them.


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## SlipperKing (Dec 9, 2008)

Charles,
I have done something similar to what you have going on with all of my armeniacums. I will have to post a few pics here but basically after seeing on another slipper forum an armeniacum in a wire basket, that's what I did. The two mature plants are doing fantastic. The three seedlings haven't been in this new setup long enough to say.I bought the fancy coconut lined wire baskets you can get from your local Home Depot and I put my basic mix plus limestone chips and lots of chicken grit in to it. Now a second basket I got from a friend was rusty and had no coconut liner so, I used sphagmun as a liner with the same mix. The second one runs drier then the coconut lined one does but both are doing great.


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## NYEric (Dec 9, 2008)

I don't have luck w/ armeniacum so maybe I'll try something diff w/ the ones I have. 
I added some leaf litter to my Paph _[difficult to obtain]_ and they seem to be doing better. Leaf litter and chicken grit aren't that easy to get around here but I'll try!


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## john mickel (Dec 9, 2008)

*Media*

Hi - Ok great articles - but if you talk to Glen at Piping Rock Or Sam at Orchid Inn or Hausermanns - they produce hundreds of AOS winners in plain bark mixtures - H2o and light and root growth far excede all these exoct mixtures - john


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## streetmorrisart (Dec 9, 2008)

This is true... But, people who love these and don't have the conditions that the aforementioned master growers do are always looking for a way to make their picky parvis a little happier so they might bloom them better, or at all.


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## Kyle (Dec 9, 2008)

john mickel said:


> Hi - Ok great articles - but if you talk to Glen at Piping Rock Or Sam at Orchid Inn or Hausermanns - they produce hundreds of AOS winners in plain bark mixtures - H2o and light and root growth far excede all these exoct mixtures - john



I don't have orchid wiz in front of me, but I bet none of them have an award on armeniacum. 

Kyle


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## cnycharles (Dec 9, 2008)

john mickel said:


> Hi - Ok great articles - but if you talk to Glen at Piping Rock Or Sam at Orchid Inn or Hausermanns - they produce hundreds of AOS winners in plain bark mixtures - H2o and light and root growth far excede all these exoct mixtures - john



true, if you have a greenhouse  under lights or windowsills you often have to get creative if you have a diversity of plant types. also, that is what they do all the time, not their hobby after work. if I could take my plants to where I work and could keep people away from them I could probably do the same (or at least better than what I have,...)


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## Rick (Dec 9, 2008)

NYEric said:


> I don't have luck w/ armeniacum so maybe I'll try something diff w/ the ones I have.
> I added some leaf litter to my Paph _[difficult to obtain]_ and they seem to be doing better. Leaf litter and chicken grit aren't that easy to get around here but I'll try!



What was the condition of your leaf litter?

If it was kind of mulchy, its like adding a good source of mycorrhizae, and other beneficial bacteria.

Same for adding live moss. The rhizosphere of mosses is usually loaded with beneficial organisms.

The combination of adding limestone and mulch changes nutrient balances. ph is regulated and can really free up P. 

I remember Sanderianums (or is it Sangii's) post on Armeniacum in the wild, and how the pH would drop very low by old growths, and was higher around the new growths. This would tend to suggest a nutrient depletion around the old growths. If you know which nutrient the plant is chasing after it may not make that much difference on potting mix if you know what to supplement with. My guess is that it is P driven.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Dec 9, 2008)

I used to add crushed oak leaves to my paph mix....I'd bake it in the oven to sterilize it. I gave up on it...I thought maybe it allowed the mix to break down faster...I forget why...maybe just to lazy. It seemed my paphs used to grow quite well when I added it. Take care, Eric


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## Scooby5757 (Dec 9, 2008)

This year I hung plant underneath a Honey locust in the back yard. All those tiny little leaves came down a bit early and many pots had tons in them. I just let them stay, I was wondering if it would help or hinder. Nice to hear of satisfied results.


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## SlipperKing (Dec 10, 2008)

john mickel said:


> Hi - Ok great articles - but if you talk to Glen at Piping Rock Or Sam at Orchid Inn or Hausermanns - they produce hundreds of AOS winners in plain bark mixtures - H2o and light and root growth far excede all these exoct mixtures - john


That's nice for them


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## SlipperKing (Dec 10, 2008)

streetmorrisart said:


> This is true... But, people who love these and don't have the conditions that the aforementioned master growers do are always looking for a way to make their picky parvis a little happier so they might bloom them better, or at all.


You GO Girl!


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## Brabantia (Dec 10, 2008)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> I used to add crushed oak leaves to my paph mix....I'd bake it in the oven to sterilize it. I gave up on it...I thought maybe it allowed the mix to break down faster...I forget why...maybe just to lazy. It seemed my paphs used to grow quite well when I added it. Take care, Eric


Here in Belgium I heard that it was good to add chopped leaves of ash trees (Fraxinus excellsior) because this is a good source of humic acids. I don't know if it also grows in the United States.


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## Rick (Dec 10, 2008)

Brabantia said:


> Here in Belgium I heard that it was good to add chopped leaves of ash trees (Fraxinus excellsior) because this is a good source of humic acids. I don't know if it also grows in the United States.



There is an Ash tree (fairly common) in the US, but not sure if its the same species.

I just googled ash, and apparently there are a bunch of ash tree species in North America. All are genus Fraxinus, but different species.

humic acid is high in allot of deciduous tree leaves. You can generate allot of humics from oak leaves too.

Sphagnum moss is also a great source of humic acids. If you want to by refined humic acid from a chemical supply it will be from peat/moss sources.


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## Brabantia (Dec 10, 2008)

Rick said:


> There is an Ash tree (fairly common) in the US, but not sure if its the same species.
> 
> I just googled ash, and apparently there are a bunch of ash tree species in North America. All are genus Fraxinus, but different species.
> 
> ...



This is the reason why I am growing Paph vietnamense and Ho Chi Minh in a substrate prepared from bark, CHC and a few coarse peat.


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## Gilda (Dec 10, 2008)

I too, am trying this with my armeniacums and micranthums. I am seeing much better growth and already have a stolon coming out the side through the sphagnum moss ! Now if they will just bloom !


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## cnycharles (Dec 10, 2008)

Gilda said:


> I too, am trying this with my armeniacums and micranthums. I am seeing much better growth and already have a stolon coming out the side through the sphagnum moss ! Now if they will just bloom !



try really cold and bright in the winter..


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## biothanasis (Dec 10, 2008)

How cold is that "really cold"??? Thanks...


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## cnycharles (Dec 10, 2008)

biothanasis said:


> How cold is that "really cold"??? Thanks...



here's an excerpt from Charles and Margaret Baker's culture sheet for paph armeniacum (sheets can be downloaded via subscription from http://www.orchidculture.com)
CLIMATE: Station #56748, Pao-Shan, China, Lat. 25.1N, Long. 99.2E, at 5554
ft. (1693 m). Temperatures are calculated for an elevation of 6550 ft.
(2000 m), resulting in probable extremes of 87F (30C) and 25F (-4C). 

N/HEMISPHERE JAN FEB MAR APR MAY JUN JUL AUG SEP OCT NOV DEC
F AVG MAX -- - 59 60 67 - 73 74 75 - 74 --74 73 -70 64 -- 60
F AVG MIN -- - 32 36 40 - 46 55 61 -62 -- 61 57 - 52 40 - 34
DIURNAL RANGE 27 24 27 27 19 14 12 13 16 18 24 26
RAIN/INCHES 1.2 1.4 1.8 1.4 4.2 5.4 6.1 5.7 3.9 3.9 1.1 0.3
HUMIDITY/% 65 66 61 60 68 75 82 83 79 79 72 71
BLOOM SEASON * * * * 
DAYS CLR @ 7AM 23 15 17 14 9 3 1 1 5 7 19 20
DAYS CLR @ 1PM 19 9 13 6 3 0 0 1 2 5 16 19
RAIN/MM 30 36 46 36 107 137 155 145 99 99 28 8
C AVG MAX --- 15.0 15.6 19.4 22.8 23.3 24.0 23.4 23.3 22.8 21.1 17.8 15.6
C AVG MIN --- 0.0 2.1 4.3 7.6 12.6 16.0 16.5 16.0 13.7 11.0 4.3 1.0
DIURNAL RANGE 15.0 13.5 15.1 15.2 10.7 8.0 6.9 7.3 9.1 10.1 13.5 14.6
S/HEMISPHERE JUL AUG SEP OCT NOV DEC JAN FEB MAR APR MAY JUN

Cultural Recommendations:

LIGHT: 1800-2500 fc. Paphiopedilum armeniacum is healthiest with bright,
diffused light. It should not be exposed to direct sun, and strong air
movement should be provided at all times. Plants thrive when placed in the
strong, cool, moist airflow near the outlet of an evaporative cooler.

TEMPERATURES: Summer days average 75-75F (23-24C), and nights average
61-62F (16-17C), with a diurnal range of 12-14F (7-8C). 



hope that helps!

I couldn't get the columns to line up for easy reading, but if you look carefully you can get the idea...


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## biothanasis (Dec 10, 2008)

That is great info cnycharles!!!!!! Thanks yo so much!!!...


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## cnycharles (Dec 10, 2008)

you are welcome!


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Dec 10, 2008)

I've always kept my armeniacums and micranthums cold...they stay outdoors until the temps are well into the 30's (I once had a micranthum covered in snow..no harm). My cold room is usually in the 50's on winter nights, but can drop to the low 40's during cold spells...and I give armeniacum full southern sun in the winter, up against the glass. Can't bloom either one.......Take care, Eric


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## cnycharles (Dec 10, 2008)

threaten to feed them to your hermit crab! maybe they just need some incentive....


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## Rick (Dec 10, 2008)

My first run of armeniacum and micranthum was in slat baskets lined with limestone and sheet moss, and using a CHC based mix w/oyster shell. Live moss took over pretty fast and the plants thrived and bloomed over a couple of years. But my summers the last couple of years have been getting into the high 80's and low 90's in the GH, even with the first year of the wet pad, and both plants came down with Erwinia, and went away one growth at a time until there was none

I've rebooted both species, and moved the armeniacums back into a slat basket like I did last time this summer. So far no rots, and lots of stolons all over. The micranthum is still potted fairly normally and bloomed this past spring. It has pushed up a new growth or two since it bloomed. Its in a standard bark mix, but I have been top dressing with oyster shell and bone meal.

I'm using allot more bone meal now, and they are in much shadier spots closer to the wet pad this past summer, so maybe that kept them a bit cooler.


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## SlipperKing (Dec 11, 2008)

*My armeniacum set up*

This first one was a single growth from Ebay w/bud which blasted, bought in late spring 08. The arrow points to the orginal growth. These where the smallest baskets I could get, 10 inches. Coconut fiber lined with med bark, CHC, sponge rock, charcoal and oyster shell (chicken grit). It's now 4 growth.










The next armeniacum was bought late summer 08 from Ebay, one of our ST member. This is the old rusty basket lined with moss, same mix. As you can see it has grown a bunch. It is now 11 inch NS. No stolens that I can see. It does dry out faster then the first one.





The last setup is of 3 seedlings from different sources. Plastic basket w/moss on the outer area and the same mix in the middle. One plant is acturally a stolen from an old declining plant that a friend pasted onto me. So far it is holding it's own (it's very hard to see)




I hope this will help other members


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## biothanasis (Dec 11, 2008)

Thank you for the photos Rick...! Now I must get some carcoal!!!!


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## cnycharles (Dec 11, 2008)

it's interesting to see that you have them in a mix with large chc's. when I first had a bunch of seedlings from jim rice orchids, I had all six or so in an oval planter with all large chc's. they all declined except for the remaining one, but I may not have known about vigorous chip washing, and probably needed media amendments to keep things in better shape. the top media where the plant crowns and emerging roots would always be dry because of the large pore space on the surface, and the underneath would be very wet. plus they may have had some lingering infection from before


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## SlipperKing (Dec 11, 2008)

cnycharles said:


> it's interesting to see that you have them in a mix with large chc's. when I first had a bunch of seedlings from jim rice orchids, I had all six or so in an oval planter with all large chc's. they all declined except for the remaining one, but I may not have known about vigorous chip washing, and probably needed media amendments to keep things in better shape. the top media where the plant crowns and emerging roots would always be dry because of the large pore space on the surface, and the underneath would be very wet. plus they may have had some lingering infection from before


I think what you have discribed Charles, dry tops and soggy bottoms is why this basket culture works for armeniacum. I have not tried this with other Parvis. Also, I find the best way for me to keep Parvis/ brachys alive is by having allot of inert things in the mix/pot, like limestone rocks etc.
I had a friend that wanted me to breed with his Psyche, a blooming 4 growth plant. He passed it on to me for safe keeping and to my surprise it was growing in nothing more then white styroform peanuts! No mix at all. It had all washed out at some point. I finally got a div. which quickly died in my bark mix!


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## Candace (Dec 11, 2008)

I have an armeniacum in low bud right now. I bought it as a small seedling and have grown it in s/h for many years. I transfered it a few months ago to a chc mix as the leca was starting to look bad. 

I think these grow so slow as it is that I don't want to slow them down any further by unnecessary freezing temps. Yes, they can certainly handle the cold, but don't have to have it to bloom. Maybe, if I had a reluctant clone, I may stick it out in cooler temps for a couple weeks, but I wouldn't grow them cold as a habit. My low temp. this year in the g.h. has been 57 degrees at night and it's in bud. I'll keep fingers crossed that it doesn't take 6 mos. to bloom or blast.


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## SlipperKing (Dec 11, 2008)

Candace said:


> I think these grow so slow as it is that I don't want to slow them down any further by unnecessary


I'd have to disagree with you on this point. Mine went from 1 growth to 4 in less then a yr. No bud yet but still that can be coming.


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## cnycharles (Dec 11, 2008)

ouch. thanks for the info and pics!


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## Rick (Dec 11, 2008)

SlipperKing said:


> I think what you have discribed Charles, dry tops and soggy bottoms is why this basket culture works for armeniacum. I have not tried this with other Parvis. Also, I find the best way for me to keep Parvis/ brachys alive is by having allot of inert things in the mix/pot, like limestone rocks etc.
> I had a friend that wanted me to breed with his Psyche, a blooming 4 growth plant. He passed it on to me for safe keeping and to my surprise it was growing in nothing more then white styroform peanuts! No mix at all. It had all washed out at some point. I finally got a div. which quickly died in my bark mix!



The dry top and soggy bottom syndrome may be a reason why some people have general problems with CHC. If your air humidity is lower than 60% the CHC always looks "too dry" and you generally over water to compensate. While the bottom of the pot will be sopping wet, and rot the roots off.

In the meantime with low air humidity conditions, the plant is pumping hard loosing water through the leaves, making water uptake through the roots crucial (which I don't think paphs like to do).

I agree with you Rick that happy parvis will grow pretty quickly.

By the way, is chicken grit crushed limestone? I live near a couple of limestone quarries. I may pick up some crusher run, and substitute my oyster shell use with it.


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## cnycharles (Dec 11, 2008)

Rick said:


> The dry top and soggy bottom syndrome may be a reason why some people have general problems with CHC. If your air humidity is lower than 60% the CHC always looks "too dry" and you generally over water to compensate. While the bottom of the pot will be sopping wet, and rot the roots off.



 sounds very familiar


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## SlipperKing (Dec 12, 2008)

Rick,
*chicken grit crushed limestone?* I'll have to go read the bag and get back to you on this.


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## Kyle (Dec 12, 2008)

In my part of the continent, chicken grit is crushed granite.


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