# Cypripedium subtropicum line drawing



## kentuckiense (Nov 26, 2006)

I stumbled across the line drawing from the description of this elusive species. I've put in an interlibrary loan request to get the whole article. Anyway, here it is:






It really does like very Selenipedium-esque, no?

My apologies about the small size. I couldn't find any larger.


----------



## Jon in SW Ohio (Nov 26, 2006)

It definitely does look Selenipedium-esque.

BTW, did you see the article on Cyps in the new AOS bulletin (Orchids)? There's a pic of an almost black Cyp that I couldn't take my eyes off of!

Jon


----------



## kentuckiense (Nov 26, 2006)

Jon in SW Ohio said:


> There's a pic of an almost black Cyp that I couldn't take my eyes off of!


The C. palangshanense? It's gorgeous. It looks related to C. debile and our native C. fasciculatum.


----------



## Jon in SW Ohio (Nov 27, 2006)

The nearly black one I meant is the Cyp. tibeticum on the right side of page 917 in the December 2006 issue. I dont' think I've ever seen anything like it!

Jon


----------



## Heather (Nov 27, 2006)

Hrm...I guess my AOS membership expired.


----------



## Jon in SW Ohio (Nov 27, 2006)

I just got the issue yesterday Heather oke:

Jon


----------



## Heather (Nov 27, 2006)

No, really, it is up the end of this month...so, I am doubtful I will be receiving it. However, you give me a little hope...


----------



## kentuckiense (Nov 27, 2006)

Lien is scanning the article for me! I'm excited.

Also, the description of C. subtropicum arrived today! However, just about everything but the abstract is in Mandarin(I think).


----------



## kentuckiense (Nov 28, 2006)

Here's the abstract:


----------



## VAAlbert (Nov 29, 2006)

Cyp subtropicum does seem to have 'primitive' characters for the plicate-leaved genera, though the overt flower similarity to Selenipedium (incl the column) could be pollinator syndrome convergence. 'Primitive' Paphs, Phrags, and Mex all have the basically inflated labella that almost all Cyps and all Selens bear. Thus, the inflated pouch feature can be considered 'primitive' in the whole slipper orchid group, by the principle of parsimony. The main features that stick out for me with Cyp subtropicum are the stem habit, incl height and leaf form, and many-flowered raceme. This gives one an impression of relatedness to Cyp californicum. The habit is also similar to Cyp irapeanum, and based on molecular data, irapeanum is the baslmaost Cyp, probably followed by californicum, then the rest. So, it would not surprise me if subtropicum were also very near the evolutionary base of the Cyps. East Asia/North America disjunctions are very well-known in other plant groups, and both californicum and irapeanum are good contenders for this connection (which probably dates to a Bering land bridge connection).

Best,

Vic


----------



## kentuckiense (Nov 29, 2006)

I just want to see a photo of the darn thing! There must be a photo _somewhere_!


----------



## yijiawang (Dec 29, 2008)

Dear, Please check this link for larger pictures http://www.bioinfo.cn/db05/lankzwtp/images/t5-1.jpg , you can serch this species in Chinese via 暖地杓兰


----------



## kentuckiense (Dec 29, 2008)

Am I correct in my understanding that no photograph of a living specimen exists?


----------



## KyushuCalanthe (Dec 30, 2008)

kentuckiense said:


> Am I correct in my understanding that no photograph of a living specimen exists?



None that have been shown publicly. Even Dr. Holger Perner couldn't find one in his search for this species and he talked directly to the guy who was on the team that discovered it! The original population was washed away by a flood.


----------



## NYEric (Dec 30, 2008)

Hopefully someone collected some.


----------



## kentuckiense (Dec 30, 2008)

NYEric said:


> Hopefully someone collected some.


I would have to doubt it. Even if some were collected, they are probably dead seeing as this group of Cyps has yet to be successfully cultured long-term.

However, hope remains in that I believe this area is extremely restricted by the Chinese government because it is claimed by both China and India.


----------



## NYEric (Dec 30, 2008)

Hoping for another population to be found?


----------



## likespaphs (Dec 31, 2008)

NYEric said:


> Hoping for another population to be found?



always. 
i sometimes hope for populations that are never found....


----------



## cnycharles (Dec 31, 2008)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> None that have been shown publicly. Even Dr. Holger Perner couldn't find one in his search for this species and he talked directly to the guy who was on the team that discovered it! The original population was washed away by a flood.



maybe looking downstream in a floodplain soon might reveal some?


----------



## kentuckiense (Dec 31, 2008)

cnycharles said:


> maybe looking downstream in a floodplain soon might reveal some?



I was under the impression they were destroyed by flooding due to a dam. However, that may be what is about to happen to the area. Memory's fuzzy.


----------



## cnycharles (Dec 31, 2008)

oh; yes it would be hard to find them if that were the case!  maybe some corms will float to the surface and grow on the shore somewhere... (yeah, right)


----------



## KyushuCalanthe (Jan 2, 2009)

No doubt this species seems to be a phantom. Only once was it found in flower in the wild (in 1980) in Medog County and no other flowering plants have been seen by botanists since then. Perner states that fruiting plants that closely resemble this species were collected in east Yunnan 70 years ago, but that region has been largely deforested. No other scientific records have been made, but from time to time plants have been offered on the black market as being _C. subtropicum_. None of these have been photographed or shown publicly, but apparently they turned out to be an _Epipactus_ species in truth.

This species appears to be a native of alluvial forests which regularly are destroyed or altered by floods. The area that the type specimen was collected from was at least partially destroyed by a flood years ago due to a landslide that caused a natural damn in the river. When that broke all downstream forests were washed away. The species is known only from one location along a tributary of the massive Yarlung Tsangpo River in Tibet (this same river is called the Brahmaputra River once it enters India). Given that this region is extremely remote and vast, and also is closed to outsiders for the most part, it is likely that additional populations exist somewhere. 

So, until someone finds them again and photographs them, we will have to just wait and dream about this most unique Cyp. There is a remote possibility that someone is growing poached specimens somewhere, but nobody is fessing up to that!


----------



## kentuckiense (Jan 4, 2009)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> No doubt this species seems to be a phantom. Only once was it found in flower in the wild (in 1980) in Medog County and no other flowering plants have been seen by botanists since then. Perner states that fruiting plants that closely resemble this species were collected in east Yunnan 70 years ago, but that region has been largely deforested. No other scientific records have been made, but from time to time plants have been offered on the black market as being _C. subtropicum_. None of these have been photographed or shown publicly, but apparently they turned out to be an _Epipactus_ species in truth.
> 
> This species appears to be a native of alluvial forests which regularly are destroyed or altered by floods. The area that the type specimen was collected from was at least partially destroyed by a flood years ago due to a landslide that caused a natural damn in the river. When that broke all downstream forests were washed away. The species is known only from one location along a tributary of the massive Yarlung Tsangpo River in Tibet (this same river is called the Brahmaputra River once it enters India). Given that this region is extremely remote and vast, and also is closed to outsiders for the most part, it is likely that additional populations exist somewhere.
> 
> So, until someone finds them again and photographs them, we will have to just wait and dream about this most unique Cyp. There is a remote possibility that someone is growing poached specimens somewhere, but nobody is fessing up to that!



Yikes! Thanks for clearing up my erroneous posts. I'll be saving this info!


----------



## Berthold (Apr 14, 2011)

Hello friends of rare Cypripedium species, is there any information about finding subtropicum at this position meanwhile?


----------



## cyprimaniac (Apr 15, 2011)

*subtropicum*



Berthold said:


> Hello friends of rare Cypripedium species, is there any information about finding subtropicum at this position meanwhile?



Sorry, I cannot help you


----------



## Berthold (Apr 15, 2011)

cyprimaniac said:


> Sorry, I cannot help you



But there are people around who can. Do You know them?


----------



## cyprimaniac (Apr 15, 2011)

Berthold said:


> But there are people around who can. Do You know them?



sorry Berthold,
I dont know any IN THIS FORUM............ 

they only love pics from "Cyps in progress" 

cheers


----------



## KyushuCalanthe (Apr 15, 2011)

Berthold said:


> Hello friends of rare Cypripedium species, is there any information about finding subtropicum at this position meanwhile?



Interesting question. I have not heard of any confirmed populations within Vietnam's borders, but it is highly likely. The people to ask would be collectors on the ground. C. lentiginosum would be another likely candidate for that location.


----------



## Ernie (Apr 15, 2011)

cyprimaniac said:


> sorry Berthold,
> I dont know any IN THIS FORUM............
> 
> they only love pics from "Cyps in progress"
> ...



Our nameless, locationless friend cyprimaniac, your jabs at the forum and its members are not appreciated. It is vaguely apparent that you hold some great body of knowledge on Cypripediums that you have yet to share. I encourage and personally invite you to do so here!!! I enjoy your image posts! I also appreciate your attempts at identifying species and hybrids others wish to share. 

In this forum, you will find members from all over the globe and of all levels of expertise from beginning hobbyists to hobbyists with large collections of many genera to commercial growers. Please expect the posts to equally reflect this diversity. Jabs at what you consider to be "silly" posts is not productive, and smileys don't make being discourteous okay.


----------



## Sirius (Apr 15, 2011)

Well said Ernie. I doubt it will do much good to try and speak sense to him. He seems intent on getting shown the door.


----------



## Marc (Apr 15, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Our nameless, locationless friend cyprimaniac, your jabs at the forum and its members are not appreciated. It is vaguely apparent that you hold some great body of knowledge on Cypripediums that you have yet to share. I encourage and personally invite you to do so here!!! I enjoy your image posts! I also appreciate your attempts at identifying species and hybrids others wish to share.
> 
> In this forum, you will find members from all over the globe and of all levels of expertise from beginning hobbyists to hobbyists with large collections of many genera to commercial growers. Please expect the posts to equally reflect this diversity. Jabs at what you consider to be "silly" posts is not productive, and smileys don't make being discourteous okay.



True words Ernie, my thoughts exactly.


----------



## cyprimaniac (Apr 16, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Our nameless, locationless friend cyprimaniac, your jabs at the forum and its members are not appreciated. It is vaguely apparent that you hold some great body of knowledge on Cypripediums that you have yet to share. I encourage and personally invite you to do so here!!! I enjoy your image posts! I also appreciate your attempts at identifying species and hybrids others wish to share.
> 
> In this forum, you will find members from all over the globe and of all levels of expertise from beginning hobbyists to hobbyists with large collections of many genera to commercial growers. Please expect the posts to equally reflect this diversity. Jabs at what you consider to be "silly" posts is not productive, and smileys don't make being discourteous okay.



hello Ernie,
pls let me know, if you are serioulsly interested to know HOW I cultivate my Cypripediums (see your other posting).

After about 45 years of growing Cyps, there is not only VAGELY experience of HOW TO DO IT SUCCESSFULLY - believe me (see my separate PM) 

Be patient, you will see much more flower pics from my small collection of Cyps soon (if SUPERMODERATOR allows), and also pics for those folks who love "Cyps in progress".

It MIGHT BE that you and some other folks DO NOT understand IRONY,
but thats the reason I use the smileys from the forum,
and I think that it is usefull to look at them for you too.

last but not least I would not bet, who of us KNOW personally MORE EXPERTS from this forum 
and not in this forum from all over the world, 
alive and already dead 
YOU OR ME.................

ity:


----------



## Ernie (Apr 16, 2011)

Dieter,

I am most certainly very interested in some details of your cyp cultivation!

Thanks for the charming PMs. Your experience is well demonstrated in them. *Now please share your knowledge with the rest of us* here on the forum instead of berating others. 

Also sorry for the confusion about your experience. Your profile lists you as a newbie, you state you've been growing cyps for 45 years here, and you told Dot you've been growing for 35 years in another post. Again, your ability to grow these gorgeous things is beyond dispute!!! Please share your knowledge. 

Why did I use the wording "vaguely apparent" in reference to your knowledge depth? Because I can tell you are VERY experienced but you just seem reluctant to share it here because you fell this forum is inferior or something? You wish to communicate with only a select few people while treating the rest of us like idiots.. and babies that like pictures of flowerless Cyp noses. 

I do recognize Dieter as a masculine European name, as is Ernest. In my case derived from my Swedish grandfather's name Ernst. Ernie and Bert are on Sesame Street not the Muppets (other than the occasional cameo). 

I also never claimed to know more experts than you. I simply stated the diversity of this forum and that one would expect to find posts of all kinds. I know proportionally few experts. I am pretty sure, however, that Dr. Cribb's first name is Phil, not Paul.


----------



## Berthold (Apr 16, 2011)

Ernie and Dieter (not Bernd), come back to the point please. What are Your personal experiences in growing Cypripedium subropicum?


----------



## cyprimaniac (Apr 16, 2011)

Berthold said:


> Ernie and Dieter (not Bernd), come back to the point please. What are Your personal experiences in growing Cypripedium subropicum?



for my part, Berthold,
I am very sorry, but I do not grow C. subtropicum 
and do not intend to do so.

so maybe Ernie might help you 
or any other - in contrary to me experienced growers - can do ........

cheers


----------



## Ernie (Apr 16, 2011)

Berthold said:


> Ernie and Dieter (not Bernd), come back to the point please. What are Your personal experiences in growing Cypripedium subropicum?



My point exactly. I have zero experience with this species. Can't wait to see it and how to cultivate it.


----------



## s1214215 (Apr 16, 2011)

An interesting species. I hope we will have it in collections one day.. 

I was sent some seed from China as a gift and sent it to a friend in the USA for flasking. It has germinated, but waiting now for leaves to be produced.

My friend who sent it from China, says he intends to try to cross his plant with warm growing species from America and Asia. He is also trying to flask propagate it. I hope he succeeds.

Brett


----------



## Hakone (Apr 16, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Dieter,
> 
> I am most certainly very interested in some details of your cyp cultivation!
> 
> ...




pour des informations pas de commentaire ( für Informationen kein Kommentar )





cyprimaniac said:


> hey,
> I have about 20 different species and hybrids,
> cultivating Cyps for about 35 years now
> 
> ...


----------



## cyprimaniac (Apr 16, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Dieter,
> 
> Thanks for the charming PMs.......



my pleasure.

ity:

cheers


----------



## Marc (Apr 16, 2011)

It might be me but this topic is getting more and more confusing with each and every post in it. :S


----------



## NYEric (Apr 16, 2011)

Egos. While they calm down, hopefully someone with the specific knowledge will anwer!


----------



## Berthold (Apr 17, 2011)

cyprimaniac said:


> C. subtropicum .. and do not intend to do so.



I see You don't like the flower size of this species.


----------



## cyprimaniac (Apr 17, 2011)

Berthold said:


> I see You don't like the flower size of this species.



I like the linedrawing.......... 
...........it is free of cost.

cheers


----------



## s1214215 (Apr 17, 2011)

Jeessus Chr....st Boys.. Wish you lot would calm it down.

If my sister (a day care lass) was here, she'd be sending you all to the naughty corner.

Please, lets all accept our differences, move on and start afresh.

Brett

ps.Lets see where thing go with Subtropicum, get this thread back on track. It seems there are more plants in China sellers and people claiming to grow it are to be believed. OK, wheres it coming from, how to grow and can we get it out legally?

Brett


----------



## cyprimaniac (Apr 17, 2011)

whats wrong with you Brett ity:
whats wrong with us. 
its just a joke beside the serious question, 
which up to now nobody was willing/able to answer.

Pls be patient folks.
There is combined power of experts knowledge in this forum,
and soon you will get your answers, hopefully. 

(xxxxxxx) some part deleted.

cheers


----------



## s1214215 (Apr 17, 2011)

Yes Dieter,

I know how you are poking at here. Yes, I know the person you mean. But I judge people by how they treat me and he has been fare to me. YEs, he can charge on some items. Why, I have never asked. You know what, I have seen plants at phenomenal prices sell in Asia. Guess some folk have too much money and less sense.

You an I both know that somethings are not always what they seem. I have seen plants that are supposedly near extinct pop up for sale here in Thailand. Subtropicum I suspect is the same when you look at the area it comes from and that most people are not allowed in to those areas. 

Hey, I have a sample of subtropicum seed sitting in my fridge if someone can go do a genetic test. Either that or we can see what comes if the seed I have in flask now with someone in the USA. Might be a long wait though  

OK, well you guys can biff it out :sob: 

Brett


----------



## cyprimaniac (Apr 17, 2011)

OK Brett, 
you are right...................
I just edited that posting

cheers


----------



## s1214215 (Apr 17, 2011)

Hi Dieter

I have known you a while via emails, you have been a good friend that way though we have never met. I do hope we an meet sometime if I can get out of Oz again to the EU in a few years. I will stand up for you to say that when you believe something is right, you say so. 

Conviction can be a positive thing for all, but humility too. This is aimed at no one in particular, but humilty serves well. I have not delved into this tiff, but hope we can see peace soon on all side.

Now that enough outa me.. I have wasted half the say on emails, orchid forums etc, and need to prep some lessons for 50+ students I have to face tomorrow who dont give a toss about some obscure plant in the Himalayas :rollhappy:

Brett


----------



## Dido (Apr 18, 2011)

s1214215 said:


> An interesting species. I hope we will have it in collections one day..
> 
> I was sent some seed from China as a gift and sent it to a friend in the USA for flasking. It has germinated, but waiting now for leaves to be produced.
> 
> ...



Hy do we speak about subtropicum or singchii. For me it is not 100% sure that it is the same kind. If you look at the drawings. 
And the location so much I heard is the location where they have found singchii growing together with this big kind of henryii. 

On which medium did your friend was able to get growth and which conditions, this would be very interested. We failed on some seed now 3 differnet growers on 5 different media, and we are running out of seed. 

So please help if you can.


----------



## Dido (May 13, 2011)

Hello, 

had to remove it. 

The other net did not want to post it.


----------



## likespaphs (May 13, 2011)

{link removed by request}


----------

