# Staminodium Question - Megastaminodium



## Hakone (Aug 14, 2011)

How large and how wide is called staminodium , Megastaminodium ?


*Example, staminodale large::*

-	Armeniacum : 1 to 2 cm long , 1 to 1,5 cm wide

-	Vietnamense : 1,5 to 2 cm long and wide

-	Malipoense : 1,3 to 1,4 cm long , 1,2 to 1,3 cm wide

-	Canhii : 1,2 to 1,6 cm long , 1,2 to 1,3 cm wide , another Source : 1, 2 cm long , 1 cm wide

thank you very much


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## goldenrose (Aug 14, 2011)

Hmmm ...... personally I think it's a bit unnecessary, the measurements speak for themselves. Don't we have enough terminology & confusion in the orchid world as it is?


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## Hakone (Aug 14, 2011)

goldenrose said:


> Hmmm ...... personally I think it's a bit unnecessary, the measurements speak for themselves. Don't we have enough terminology & confusion in the orchid world as it is?



In „ Paphiopedilum subgen. Megastaminodium Braem et O.Gruss, 2011, Ochid Digest, 3: 164. „ 

How should I understand over the word *Megastaminodium*?. Please explanation, what this means?


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## Marc (Aug 14, 2011)

I think it's easy. 

You listed a couple of species with the dimensions of thier stami, however if you take into account these dimension and take the size of the actual flower into account they aren't that big.

canhii however is a completely different story as it has the biggest stami in relation to the flower size.


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## Shiva (Aug 14, 2011)

You have to consider the size of the staminode to the flower itself, not to other staminodes on other flowers.
For instance, if I stood under a wing of a Cessna plane, I would look far larger than if I stood under an Airbus 380. That seems simple enough to me.


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## Hakone (Aug 14, 2011)

Shiva said:


> You have to consider the size of the staminode to the flower itself, not to other staminodes on other flowers.
> For instance, if I stood under a wing of a Cessna plane, I would look far larger than if I stood under an Airbus 380. That seems simple enough to me.



Do you mean about optical deception? In the Science ?

Which is the definition from Megastaminodium ?

Is there a definition?


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## Hakone (Aug 14, 2011)

Marc said:


> I think it's easy.
> 
> You listed a couple of species with the dimensions of thier stami, however if you take into account these dimension and take the size of the actual flower into account they aren't that big.
> 
> canhii however is a completely different story as it has the biggest stami in relation to the flower size.



You think Staminode : Flower Correlation ?

How is with thaianum Staminode: Flower Correlation ?

in fact the measures are very clear.


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## Rick (Aug 14, 2011)

If you want some type of absolute numerical explanation then put it in terms of ratio of staminode dimension to pouch dimension.

This is the same as what Marc and Shiva are saying except in math terms instead of relative descriptive language.

I think you are being silly and just trying to start an argument to try to fit the megastamodium title into a single absolute numerical definition of the word.


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## Kevin (Aug 14, 2011)

Hakone said:


> Do you mean about optical deception? In the Science ?
> 
> Which is the definition from Megastaminodium ?
> 
> Is there a definition?



Are you asking about the 'Mega' part? I would guess that was used, as has been said, to make a point that the obvious feature of the species (or section) is the staminode, not that it is exceptionally large, persay. Regardless of the actual measurements, what is the first thing you see when you see the flower of this species? I think the name fits. You make a good point, though, as what does Megastaminodium actually mean, and what criteria are there if new species are found? What would the ratio between staminode and flower have to be for the species to be put into this section? Or are there other criteria? Maybe Braem and Gruss would be best to answer this?


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## Hakone (Aug 15, 2011)

Kevin said:


> . Regardless of the actual measurements, what is the first thing you see when you see the flower of this species? I think the name fits. You make a good point, though, *as what does Megastaminodium actually mean, and what criteria are there if new species are found? What would the ratio between staminode and flower have to be for the species to be put into this section? * Or are there other criteria? Maybe Braem and Gruss would be best to answer this?



comme il faut


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## Hakone (Aug 15, 2011)

Rick said:


> If you want some type of absolute numerical explanation then put it in terms of ratio of staminode dimension to pouch dimension.
> 
> This is the same as what Marc and Shiva are saying except in math terms instead of relative descriptive language.
> 
> I think you are being silly and just trying to start an argument to try to fit the megastamodium title into a single absolute numerical definition of the word.



- is the taxonomie a science ?

- is there in science a subjective opinion without proofs and/or Investigation ?


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## Hakone (Aug 15, 2011)

Kevin said:


> Are you asking about the 'Mega' part? I would guess that was used, as has been said, to make a point that the obvious feature of the species (or section) is the staminode, not that it is exceptionally large, persay. Regardless of the actual measurements, what is the first thing you see when you see the flower of this species? I think the name fits.



- Is optical deception to qualify a taxonomisch criteria ?. the petals of canhii are very small therefore comes to optical deception .

- How about *Micropetalum* ????


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## labskaus (Aug 15, 2011)

It is a bit sad that you haven't realized that the topic you're raising is not a taxonomy one.


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## Kavanaru (Aug 15, 2011)

labskaus said:


> It is a bit sad that you haven't realized that the topic you're raising is not a taxonomy one.



what I think is even more sad is that for someone who claims to have read many many paper/articles, and have had a lot of people explaining things (he should already know), Hakone still does not understand the subjects he wants to discuss... next step should be: learn the real meaning of Science, Taxonomy, Nomenclature, and Horticulture (not only the definition in the dictionnary, but the real meanings and implications), and their diferences.


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## Hakone (Aug 15, 2011)

labskaus said:


> It is a bit sad that you haven't realized that the topic you're raising is not a taxonomy one.



sorry , I don´t understand , was you say


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## Hakone (Aug 15, 2011)

Kavanaru said:


> what I think is even more sad is that for someone who claims to have read many many paper/articles, and have had a lot of people explaining things (he should already know), Hakone still does not understand the subjects he wants to discuss... next step should be: learn the real meaning of Science, Taxonomy, Nomenclature, and Horticulture (not only the definition in the dictionnary, but the real meanings and implications), and their diferences.



Hello Karavanu,

please answer the Kevin´s Questionen :

what does Megastaminodium actually mean, and what criteria are there if new species are found? What would the ratio between staminode and flower have to be for the species to be put into this section? 

thank you very much


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## Ernie (Aug 15, 2011)

I'll bite...

"Megastaminodium" translates roughly to "large staminode". 

So yes, the translation doesn't quite compute if you look at the staminodes of the species mentioned in relation to canhii. 

The other side of the coin is... does that make it a "bad" name choice? I don't think so. The name is quite descriptive and it's not the name that matters so much as the description and diagnosis. Odd but true. Think Paph micranthum and the big guy down at the pub named "Tiny".


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## labskaus (Aug 15, 2011)

Hakone said:


> sorry , I don´t understand , was you say



Use your brain oke:

Ramon understood well what I mean.


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## Hakone (Aug 15, 2011)

labskaus said:


> Use your brain oke:
> 
> Ramon understood well what I mean.



Hello Labskaus,

" use your eyes and your brain " G. Braem oke:


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## Hakone (Aug 15, 2011)

Hello Ernie,

thank you very much your explanation .

*"Megastaminodium" translates roughly to "large staminode".*

How large ?

Armeniacum – vietnamense – malipoense – canhii 

Who has large staminode?


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## Ernie (Aug 15, 2011)

Well, since the staminode covers up the flowers' male bits, I'm sure that each species claims they have the biggest one!  

But alpha taxonomy is not mathematics; it is not really necessary that everything "adds up". I love biology for that, but sometimes it's a nuisance. 

Hakone, you're thinking like a very logical engineer, not a biologist.  

The Code doesn't make it necessary that names make sense, just that they are validly published. So, 1+1 can equal 3 as long as you correctly claim such by valid publication. The harmony of the universe does not rely on these names as it does to math and physics holding true.


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## Hakone (Aug 15, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Hakone, you're thinking like a very logical engineer, not a biologist.
> 
> The Code doesn't make it necessary that names make sense, just that they are validly published. So, 1+1 can equal 3 as long as you correctly claim such by valid publication. The harmony of the universe does not rely on these names as it does to math and physics holding true.



Hello Ernie ,

I hopes that the biologist counts correctly money


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## Berthold (Aug 15, 2011)

Ernie said:


> ..Hakone, you're thinking like a very logical engineer, ..



Ernie, sorry, I really have to reject Your statement.


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## Hakone (Aug 15, 2011)

Berthold said:


> Ernie, sorry, I really have to reject Your statement.





Ernie is right, I studied applied informatics and human medical


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## Shiva (Aug 15, 2011)

Sorry to disagree Ernie.
But if this guy is an engineer, then I must be Elvis!


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## Kavanaru (Aug 15, 2011)

Hakone said:


> Hello Ernie ,
> 
> I hopes that the biologist counts correctly money



when have you seen a Biologist becoming Millionaire for what he does on a daily basis? oke:


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## Kavanaru (Aug 15, 2011)

Shiva said:


> Sorry to disagree Ernie.
> But if this guy is an engineer, then I must be Elvis!



Hi Elvis, 

trust me, I am married to one of them... and believe it or not, their logic has no logic at all... oke::rollhappy:


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## Hakone (Aug 15, 2011)

Kavanaru said:


> when have you seen a Biologist becoming Millionaire for what he does on a daily basis? oke:



obviously, if a Biologist count always 1 + 1 = 3 :clap:


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## Hakone (Aug 15, 2011)

Kavanaru said:


> Hi Elvis,
> 
> trust me, I am married to one of them... and believe it or not, their logic has no logic at all... oke::rollhappy:



How do you know over Fuzzy logic ? :sob:


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## Kavanaru (Aug 15, 2011)

Hakone said:


> Hello Karavanu,
> 
> please answer the Kevin´s Questionen :
> 
> ...



Megastaminodium = Large Stamonodium
For Criteria to fit in the new section = READ and UNDERSTAND the publication! 
As forthe ratio = READ and UNDERSTAND the publication!

Happy? I answered your question... not the answer you wanted?ity:


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## Ernie (Aug 15, 2011)

Hakone said:


> Hello Ernie ,
> 
> I hopes that the biologist counts correctly money



Usually, but we need to take off our shoes to help out.  And good thing salaries are low.


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## Hakone (Aug 15, 2011)

Kavanaru said:


> Megastaminodium = Large Stamonodium
> For Criteria to fit in the new section = READ and UNDERSTAND the publication!
> As forthe ratio = READ and UNDERSTAND the publication!
> 
> Happy? I answered your question... not the answer you wanted?ity:



thank you very much , I should prefer to wait Leonid and Harold


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## Ernie (Aug 15, 2011)

I enjoy these discussions. I believe Hakone is trying to make a point. Our choice for one author or plant name over another should not cloud the rules that go with the game whenever possible. Many times, it's a tough call. I'd love to be a fly on the wall if Philip, Guido, Harold, Leonid, etc all happened to walk into the same bar at the same time! That could be fun to watch.  I respect all these men for their contributions. 

Although I'd love the chance, I've never shared a bar tab with any of them. But it's nice to have no interpersonal issues to wrestle with. 

Hmmm. Question for the math-inclined. If a biologist counts $1+$1=$3, if money were earned $1 at a time (ie from a huge stack of singles), if he/she counted to $1million, how much money would he/she actually have?


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## Kavanaru (Aug 15, 2011)

Hakone said:


> thank you very much , I should prefer to wait Leonid and Harold



wait.. I am sure they will jump in sooner than later... I think they really take you way too seriously... 



Ernie said:


> I enjoy these discussions.


Me too  if there is something I really miss from tiem working at teh Botanical Institute and herbarium, is all those "non-sense" discussions about who was right (miss)interpreting the rules according to their convenience... 
It was great time, but quite loong ago already!



Ernie said:


> I'd love to be a fly on the wall if Philip, Guido, Harold, Leonid, etc all happened to walk into the same bar at the same time! That could be fun to watch.


Absolutely!!


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## poozcard (Aug 15, 2011)

I am now a fly on the wall


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## Braem (Aug 15, 2011)

Ernie said:


> I enjoy these discussions. I believe Hakone is trying to make a point. Our choice for one author or plant name over another should not cloud the rules that go with the game whenever possible. Many times, it's a tough call. I'd love to be a fly on the wall if Philip, Guido, Harold, Leonid, etc all happened to walk into the same bar at the same time! That could be fun to watch.  I respect all these men for their contributions.
> 
> Although I'd love the chance, I've never shared a bar tab with any of them. But it's nice to have no interpersonal issues to wrestle with.
> 
> Hmmm. Question for the math-inclined. If a biologist counts $1+$1=$3, if money were earned $1 at a time (ie from a huge stack of singles), if he/she counted to $1million, how much money would he/she actually have?


I would not have a problem with it .... 

And maybe Hakone can check the length of the Phragmipedium leaves against those of Phragmipedium longifolium (Oh Lord) not described by me but by Reichenbach fil. (And yes, I know I am old ... but not that old).


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## Hakone (Aug 15, 2011)

Ernie said:


> I'd love to be a fly on the wall if Philip, Guido, Harold, Leonid, etc all happened to walk into the same bar at the same time! That could be fun to watch.  I respect all these men for their contributions.



Hello Ernie,

You seem to have forgotten Holger :viking:

God forgive me please, I forgot Chen:fight:


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## Hakone (Aug 15, 2011)

omg , :sob:

" Reichenbach was born in Leipzig. From 1810 he studied medicine and natural science at the University of Leipzig, he was appointed the director of the Dresden natural history museum and a professor at the Surgical-Medical Academy in Dresde ".


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## Hakone (Aug 15, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Hmmm. Question for the math-inclined. If a biologist counts $1+$1=$3, if money were earned $1 at a time (ie from a huge stack of singles), if he/she counted to $1million, how much money would he/she actually have?



I rather ask Harold. He is a professor of ecology


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## Rick (Aug 15, 2011)

Ernie said:


> I'll bite...
> 
> "Megastaminodium" translates roughly to "large staminode".
> 
> ...



Also by definition the term "large" is completely relative. Within the single four letter prefix it is impossible to include how much and with what reference the term Mega refers to. That's why a description follows. Otherwise a name would have to be a paragraph long to meet Hakone's criteria.

Science (among numerous life activities) is based on comparison of one thing to another. Numeric ratios are used in all forms of science, art, economics and engineering. Given the scope and purpose of the new sub genera name, it just seems like the adherance to absolute comparison of other species staminodes is rather an imflamatory argument.


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## poozcard (Aug 15, 2011)

Rick said:


> Also by definition the term "large" is completely relative. Within the single four letter prefix it is impossible to include how much and with what reference the term Mega refers to. That's why a description follows. Otherwise a name would have to be a paragraph long to meet Hakone's criteria.
> 
> Science (among numerous life activities) is based on comparison of one thing to another. Numeric ratios are used in all forms of science, art, economics and engineering. Given the scope and purpose of the new sub genera name, it just seems like the adherance to absolute comparison of other species staminodes is rather an imflamatory argument.



Totally agree.
If someone would like to find an absolute description, he/she better try Buddhism.


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## Hakone (Aug 16, 2011)

Is the term " *large *" completely relative , then ameniacum , malipoense and vietnamense are valid " *Megastaminodium *" :sob:


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## Ernie (Aug 16, 2011)

Hakone said:


> Hello Ernie,
> 
> You seem to have forgotten Holger :viking:
> 
> God forgive me please, I forgot Chen:fight:



Oh yes, Holger and Chen too. The whole gang. 

No one seems to want to tackle my math question.


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## SlipperFan (Aug 16, 2011)

Your math question sounds like the guy who counted out one dollar bills thus:

One for you and one for me. Two for you and one, two for me. Three for you and one, two, three for me... (etc.)


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