# Cloning Slippers



## heliomum (Mar 18, 2008)

How do they have hybrids and cultivars of slippers if there's no meristem?


----------



## Candace (Mar 18, 2008)

Divisions. That's why slippers tend to be more expensive.


----------



## gonewild (Mar 18, 2008)

There is a meristem. The problem with cloning is a matter of isolating it.


----------



## mccallen (Mar 18, 2008)

As mentioned, slippers orchids (like all plants) _do_ have meristems and it is possible to clone them, it's just more difficult and the results are usually not pretty.

That said I did just notice this and I'd be curious (though admittedly not $50 curious) to know if there have been some new developments...


----------



## gonewild (Mar 18, 2008)

mccallen said:


> As mentioned, slippers orchids (like all plants) _do_ have meristems and it is possible to clone them, it's just more difficult and the results are usually not pretty.
> 
> That said I did just notice this and I'd be curious (though admittedly not $50 curious) to know if there have been some new developments...



I'm not quite sure why you would want to buy a clone of a rather common Paph species for $50 when you don't know what it is a clone of? It states in the info that they don't know what the flower quality will be. Maybe it will be like the flower shown or maybe not. Maybe the value is for the oddity of having a cloned Paph.


----------



## mccallen (Mar 18, 2008)

I agree entirely. It seems like this technique would be more useful in increasing the number of plants produced for crosses with low germination rates than for making yet _more_ delenatii.


----------



## Drorchid (Mar 19, 2008)

mccallen said:


> As mentioned, slippers orchids (like all plants) _do_ have meristems and it is possible to clone them, it's just more difficult and the results are usually not pretty.
> 
> That said I did just notice this and I'd be curious (though admittedly not $50 curious) to know if there have been some new developments...



Actually I am the one that cloned this Paph. delenatii. The picture shown is the actual clone (we called it 'My Time') in bloom. This was NOT a meristem clone of an existing Paph, but rather I had crossed 2 Paph delenatii's and made seedlings in the lab. I noticed that one of the seedlings was proliferating (making sideshoots/side protocorms) so I kept it separate from the other seedlings. After replating this seedling it still kept proliferating and I was eventually able to make 14 flasks with 15 to 20 plants each. When they eventually all bloomed the flowers all did look identical to each other. Also the foliage of all plants looked identical, showing they were in fact all clones of each other. This happens more often with other orchids, in particular any orchids in the Oncidium alliance. It also often happens with Phragmipediums. Once in a while I will notice it with Paph's. In particular with complex hybrids, and anything with Paph. sanderianum in it's background. 

I don't think mericloning of Paph's will be very viable like they do with Phalaenopsis or Vanda's in the near future, this was just a coincidence that I was able to clone this particular seedling.

Robert


----------



## gonewild (Mar 19, 2008)

Robert,
Your explanation makes sense as to why someone would want to purchase the clone if the plants are actually the same clone as in the picture. But the text on your web page sounds like the flowers might turn out to be something different so that was a little confusing.


----------



## Drorchid (Mar 19, 2008)

I agree, we need to update the text. The text was written before the first "My Time' clone had bloomed, so we were not sure what the flower was going to look like. When it did bloom, it actually turned out to be a very nice quality flower with very large flat flowers. That is the problem when you are able to clone a seedling in the lab like I did with this Paph, that you are not sure what the flowers are going to look like. The reason I went ahead and made so many flasks of this one seedling is that I had a pretty good Idea it was going to look good, as I knew what the parents were. At the time (when I made the cross) they were the best Paph. delenatii plants with the largest and best shaped flowers that we had.

Robert


----------



## Drorchid (Mar 19, 2008)

I changed the wording on our website. Thanks Lance for pointing that out!

Robert


----------



## The_Plant_Piper (Mar 27, 2008)

Hello. I am new to the forum and this topic is of the utmost interest to me. I have an interest in mutations and trying to breed them and/or isolating sports to establish new cultivars of things. One day I hope to have a tissue culture lab, though most likely not for orchids. I'm at the very beginning of educating myself re: labwork. I've never been much of an orchid person, though admittedly, they are spectacularly beautiful. 

Can't resist a mutant though! And my interests have been swept up into whole new genera of plants before based on a single chance find. 

I've brought home pelorics, only to discover the phenomenom is somewhat commonplace and un-exotic. So, How did I do this time? The plant was totally unlabeled, except for the (unfortunate) $50 price tag. Thankfully, there was a dried up bloom on the short little stalk that I could recognize as a "slipper" form even with my little knowledge.

In some species of plants, central variegation like this would prove somewhat stable. Its on every leaf of just this one fan of foliage off to the side of the pot with 3 other normal fans more centrally potted. *I* like the way it looks anyway.

Disheartening to hear that there is so little success with tissue culture of orchids. Or, perhaps, one day I will take that as a challenge? The invitro aspect of orchid breeding sounds intriguing though. But I don't want to spread myself too thin. So right now I'm just playing show-and-tell, I guess, and hoping I can keep the little bugger alive to see it bloom again.

Hope someone appreciates this:


----------



## NYEric (Mar 27, 2008)

Variegated foliage would be nice; not as nice as tasselation, but still nice.


----------



## SlipperKing (Mar 28, 2008)

What do you have this plant growing in? It looks like potting soil for house plants


----------



## NYEric (Mar 28, 2008)

Looks like coconut coir.


----------



## The_Plant_Piper (Mar 28, 2008)

Had a look. Looks like typical potting soil. 
What is likely to be best?

I'm thinking of dividing off the sport soon, if I can gather some info and some courage? So maybe a more optimal media could be employed. Is division/re-establishment difficult?

I just looked at the sport and realized that the white stripes on each leave are raised, giving the leaves an added dimensionality.


----------



## SlipperFan (Mar 28, 2008)

Welcome to the forum.

I've heard -- don't know if it's true or not -- that this kind of marking may be caused by a virus.


----------



## PaphMadMan (Mar 28, 2008)

SlipperFan said:


> Welcome to the forum.
> 
> I've heard -- don't know if it's true or not -- that this kind of marking may be caused by a virus.



I think the strips are way too uniform to be caused by a virus. Looks like a sectoral chimaera to me.

PaphMadMan (Kirk)


----------



## PaphMadMan (Mar 28, 2008)

The_Plant_Piper said:


> Had a look. Looks like typical potting soil.
> What is likely to be best?
> 
> I'm thinking of dividing off the sport soon, if I can gather some info and some courage? So maybe a more optimal media could be employed. Is division/re-establishment difficult?
> ...



Re-establishing after division isn't difficult if a plant is healthy, but why risk it? You are more likely to get a healthy vigorous new growth soon if it has the support of the rest of the plant. Then you can assess whether the variegation is stable. If you get plain green leaves you can divide it then to try to force another growth and see if you get lucky.

Go ahead and repot it in something more suitable than potting soil though. Bark or coconut husk based mixes are safe choices for someone new to paphs.

PaphMadMan (Kirk)


----------



## SlipperKing (Mar 28, 2008)

PaphMadMan said:


> I think the strips are way too uniform to be caused by a virus. Looks like a sectoral chimaera to me.
> 
> PaphMadMan (Kirk)



I agree with PaphMM.

You need some kind of "open" mix. A good size nursery would have "orchid" mix. Normally made of 1/4-1/2" pcs. for tree bark carcoal same size or so and sponge rock (white expanded lava). Usually not good to have most orchid in a "heavy" potting mix. A major requirement for orchids is air at the root zone Google orchids and potting mixes


----------



## PaphMadMan (Mar 28, 2008)

The_Plant_Piper said:


> Disheartening to hear that there is so little success with tissue culture of orchids.



Many orchids are easily cloned via tissue culture, just not slippers.

PaphMadMan (Kirk)


----------



## The_Plant_Piper (Mar 28, 2008)

PaphMadMan said:


> Many orchids are easily cloned via tissue culture, just not slippers.
> 
> PaphMadMan (Kirk)



Absolutely. Thanks. I should have said _slipper _orchids. 


...
I am familiar with commercial "orchid mix". I will start there, if it works well for Paphs. 

How much sun? 

Any roundabout guesses as to what type of paph I have here? I mean what kind of paphs have long strappy leaves, spotted bases and sell with this kind of price tag?
Does this dried bloom mean anything to anyone?





I don't really expect it will be so easy, but sometimes people who know a group of plants really well can be surprising. Just trying to glean all that I can.


----------



## The_Plant_Piper (Mar 28, 2008)

Here are two more photos. One just showing the variegation from beneath with backlighting. And the other designed to show how the stripes are raised.

Okay, I'll stop flooding this post with pictures now. It's just that I'm slghtly in love. (Can't wait to see the blooms). :crazy:


----------



## Eric Muehlbauer (Mar 28, 2008)

Hard to tell from the dried bloom, but it looks like it could be a complex hybrid. There was...maybe still is...a clone of insigne with the same kind of striped foliage. It was an old clone, last saw it mentioned about 15 years ago in the Orchid Digest. Take care, Eric


----------



## PaphMadMan (Mar 28, 2008)

The_Plant_Piper said:


> I am familiar with commercial "orchid mix". I will start there, if it works well for Paphs.
> 
> How much sun?
> 
> ...



Yes, a typical commercial orchid mix should be a big improvement.

Your plant is probably a hybrid derived mostly from Paph. insigne, spicerianum, charlesworthii and/or similar species, along with the classic 'complex' 'bulldog' paph hybrids. This puts it toward the cool and bright end of the paph cultural spectrum. 

Even if you had a fresh flower to show you probably wouldn't get a precise ID unless it is a species.

Some great pictures for comparison and lots of cultural information can be found at www.ladyslipper.com. Any paph beginner can learn a lot there.

PaphMadMan (Kirk)


----------



## paphiness (Mar 31, 2008)

*mutants*

In genetics research, we are always looking for the mutants, as opposed to the "normal" "wild-types". The ones that don't behave as you expect give you a clue as to how things might be working (or not) at the genetic level. In other words, if you came across a "mutant" car that was missing some part of the engine, you might be able to determine via a number of tests what part was missing. For example, if the engine didn't turn over, or if you couldn't accelerate, or you heard pinging noises, etc... Each "phenotype" of the mutant car would give you a clue as to what might be screwed up under the hood.

Research genetics works in much the same way.

I've got a small collection of oddities which I quite enjoy. You can check some out at my blog, www.slipperorchidblog.com, and clicking on the "mutants" category. I will be adding more as I dig up photos or acquire new plants.


----------



## fundulopanchax (Mar 31, 2008)

With Cypripedium seedlings in flask the same phenomenon sometimes occurs and we have divided these up the same way and gotten lots of presumably identical seedlings. Fast reported this in the mid-1970's and commonly sliced protocorms and seedlings in half and kept doing that until she had the numbers she wanted. 

My experimental plants are not old enough to bloom yet which is why I said "presumably identical."

Ron


----------



## The_Plant_Piper (Apr 2, 2008)

Well, I repotted today and that _almost _went as planned.
The pot I chose- a ceramic pot with holes designed for orchids- was probably a bit large for my plant. Then, as I was brushing away the old soil, the sport fell away from the clump. The roots were disintegrating on the whole plant and didn't look that great to me (hope I'm wrong). Then, I realized once I had it all together that the holes in the pot are large enough to allow the media to come through. Screening would have been a good idea. Anyway, its done. And I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I just put the sport a little off to the corner to give it expansion room as I didn't have another orchid pot lined up.











Hope I didn't make things worse. 

Now, I just need to figure out exactly where to place this baby in my home.


----------



## smartie2000 (Apr 2, 2008)

nice leaves....I still don't have a variegated paph yet

if the pot is one of those with holes on the sides then I don't think the pot size is too big. It will dry faster than the plastic pot too.


----------



## @[email protected] (Apr 2, 2008)

How about this hybrid phalaenopsis found somewhere on a French forum. What do u think abt ?
http://www.orchidees.fr/forums/gallery/1206731341/gallery_6051_295_28483.jpg


----------



## The_Plant_Piper (Apr 4, 2008)

That's a beautiful phael!


----------



## goldenrose (Apr 5, 2008)

Cool!!!


----------

