# Dragon's Blood / Sangre de Grado



## TheLorax (Sep 16, 2007)

This was recommended to me to use for another reason but its anti-fungal properties for plants were mentioned. 

I found the product online for sale here-
http://thehealingforest.com/Dragon'sBlood.html

Evidently it is some type of an antioxidant but what does this have to do with being able to wipe out a fungal infection in a plant. Just curious. 

I found a little bit more information here-
http://www.amazon-nutrition.com/dragons-blood.html

Who uses this and what have your results been please?


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## practicallyostensible (Sep 16, 2007)

Some info:
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2106&highlight=dragons+blood


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## bwester (Sep 16, 2007)

Ahhh, the mysteries of Dragon's Blood. We in the scientific community have no clue what the hell it really and know even less about how it does what it does. What we do know is this: Its the blood of Dragons and dragons are pretty cool. Therefore, we can only assume that it retains a portion of the dragon's coolness and transfers it to the beholder.


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## TheLorax (Sep 16, 2007)

Just sort of wondering if it was another Super Thrive type product. By the looks of the seedling posted by Gonewild, my thoughts are that this might be able to be tried for a fungal/bacterial infection. 

I'd still be interested in any other research out there.


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## kentuckiense (Sep 16, 2007)

I don't know if there is any true "research," per say, but the experiences of people here suggest that the stuff actually works well to stop fungal infections.


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## TheLorax (Sep 16, 2007)

That's pretty much what I'm thinking. I doubt seriously if a seedling in that condition would have rebounded as it did if the product didn't have some anti-fungal/anti-bacterial properties. Seedlings are touchy, realy touchy and that infection looked as if it was going to go systemic if it hadn't already.


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## Candace (Sep 16, 2007)

> Ahhh, the mysteries of Dragon's Blood. We in the scientific community have no clue what the hell it really and know even less about how it does what it does. What we do know is this: Its the blood of Dragons and dragons are pretty cool. Therefore, we can only assume that it retains a portion of the dragon's coolness and transfers it to the beholder.



And dragon's are magical....


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## NYEric (Sep 17, 2007)

I have some phrags that Dragon's Blood has saved.


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## TheLorax (Sep 17, 2007)

I was mentioning this to my neighbor who is Guatemalan and she said it's known to her as Sangre de Perro or rather Blood of the Dog. She read the web page on all that this product allegedly does and basically raised an eyebrow and smiled but told me she would pick some up for me. 

I'd still like to see any valid research that may exist out there on the product.


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## gonewild (Sep 17, 2007)

TheLorax said:


> I was mentioning this to my neighbor who is Guatemalan and she said it's known to her as Sangre de Perro or rather Blood of the Dog. She read the web page on all that this product allegedly does and basically raised an eyebrow and smiled but told me she would pick some up for me.
> 
> I'd still like to see any valid research that may exist out there on the product.



What do you consider valid research?

Be aware that "Sangre de Perro" from Guatemala is likely a completely different substance. The "Dragon's Blood" being used to treat infections on plants is from ONLY one species... *Croton lechleri*, not four as mentioned in some literature.
I can't find any reference that the plant, Croton lechleri grows outside of the Amazon Basin so there is no reason to believe it is the same as your friends "Sangre de Perro" from Central America.


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## TheLorax (Sep 17, 2007)

I would interpret valid research in much the same manner as the scientific community at large does.

My neighbor isn't going back to Guatemala any time soon. She's an American now and has no relatives over there any longer. She's going to the corner health food store to pick some up for me. She said they carried it under the other name and she was going to pick up some other things for herself anyway and I wanted her to also pick up some shark cartilage for me while she was there.


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## NYEric (Sep 17, 2007)

If Lance [gonewild] says it's not the same product, it's not the same product. He is the importer.


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## Candace (Sep 17, 2007)

How do you know he's the only importer of it? Or does he have an exclusion agreement with the country of Peru...:rollhappy:


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## gonewild (Sep 17, 2007)

NYEric said:


> If Lance [gonewild] says it's not the same product, it's not the same product. He is the importer.



Thank you Eric. 
Let me clarify.....
I said it may not be the same product. Croton lechleri is not listed as a species found in Guatemala. A herb named "Dogs Blood" by local people would not indicate the locals value it's "healing" properties highly, so I doubt the two are the same. It may be similar in appearance but it may have completely different chemical properties.

Please make sure you know what you are using when treating your plants with herbal products. Do not assume Sangre de Grado and Sangre de Perro are the same thing.

The Dragon's Blood I have used and tested (and sold) is definitely collected from the Croton lechleri tree. I obtain it directly from the people that harvest it from the forest trees in the Madre de Dios region of Peru.

I have also tested Dragon's Blood used in combination with another "anti-microbial" herb from the region and found it to have a few additional benefits for treating plants.


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## gonewild (Sep 17, 2007)

Candace said:


> How do you know he's the only importer of it? Or does he have an exclusion agreement with the country of Peru...:rollhappy:




I'm not the only importer. There are now many companies beginning to promote the product for human use. Just be aware that most others are using extraction processes and reconstituted plant materials to "manufacture" the natural product they sell. Their product may very well be effective for treating plant infections or it may loose something in the manufacturing process, who knows? I just prefer to buy a natural product from the little old man that lives in the forest and "bleeds" the trees rather than the pharmaceutical company that grinds up the whole tree and boils it down.


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## gonewild (Sep 17, 2007)

TheLorax said:


> I would interpret valid research in much the same manner as the scientific community at large does.



Then the answer is no. There is no valid research for you to read. 

As far as I know I'm the first to suggest the use of Dragon's Blood to treat plant infections. 
And since the scientific community (Blake oke: ) does not recognize that I know what I'm talking about my research is not "valid".

You will not see an FDA approved test for Dragon's Blood published because the pharmaceutical companies have failed to find a way to patent a drug from the resin. They have proven the resin has health benefits but not been able to improve on the un-patentable natural substance, thus there is no profit motive to "validate" Dragon's Blood as a medicine for humans or plants.



> My neighbor isn't going back to Guatemala any time soon. She's an American now and has no relatives over there any longer. She's going to the corner health food store to pick some up for me. She said they carried it under the other name and she was going to pick up some other things for herself anyway and I wanted her to also pick up some shark cartilage for me while she was there.



I am interested to see what she brings you that is "Sangre de Perro".


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## NYEric (Sep 17, 2007)

peepee de Perro! :evil:


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## Rick (Sep 17, 2007)

It's hard to do "valid" research with orchids because no one wants to trash a hundred plants in the name of science. But if someone wanted to donate the plants and space I'd be happy to develop the protocol and crunch the numbers.


Otherwise we're just stuck with the anecdotal reports of isolated cures. Ultimately those could be compiled into decent data if we keep accurate tallies of failures as well as successes.

So far GoneWilds dragon blood has been the best thing I've come across for Erwinia infections.


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## Hien (Sep 17, 2007)

gonewild said:


> You will not see an FDA approved test for Dragon's Blood published because the pharmaceutical companies have failed to find a way to patent a drug from the resin. They have proven the resin has health benefits but not been able to improve on the un-patentable natural substance, thus there is no profit motive to "validate" Dragon's Blood as a medicine for humans or plants.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Even more than what you said above.
> I always has a suspicion that Pharmaceutical companies will do anything in their power to discredit natural remedies (they make such a big deal of how an herb kills one or two person here and there, they probably even pay the reporters to put these news up prominently, yet never admit that their drugs kill thousand more)


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## TheLorax (Sep 17, 2007)

> She's going to the corner health food store to pick some up for me. She said they carried it under the other name...


 The other name would presumably be... Dragon's Blood. We'll see. Might even be worth me taking a trip with her to see what else they have at the corner health food store. 




> the pharmaceutical companies have failed to find a way to patent a drug from the resin. They have proven the resin has health benefits but not been able to improve on the un-patentable natural substance, thus there is no profit motive to "validate"...


 (Sigh) Sad but unfortunately very true based on my limited experience with corn gluten being used as a natural pre-emergence herbicide. One thing though, I can go and buy a bag of corn gluten meal that has been specially "formulated", or rather processed into a pellet form for about $65 a bag to toss around the base of my plantings or I can go to an animal feed store and buy a bag of corn gluten meal for all of $12 a bag. They work the same. Choice of which to purchase is mine. Also too, I believe the pharmaceutical industry would trash a thousand plants in the name of science if they thought there was a buck to be made. 




> I always has a suspicion that Pharmaceutical companies will do anything in their power to discredit natural remedies (they make such a big deal of how an herb kill one or two person here and there, they probably even pay the reporters to put these news up prominently, yet never admit that their drugs kill thousand more


 (Bigger Sigh) The pharmaceutical and the chemical industries are both extremely powerful. I suspect there may be some validity to your comments.

Great that it works on Erwinia infections although not all infections are attributable to the genera Erwinia. I’d still like to see anything that’s out there in print on this miracle product and potatoes are certainly cheap enough to experiment with and they succumb to Bacterial blackleg which is an Erwinia infection. Although gonewild’s photographs of his seedling are spectacular, photos of plants treated with Dragon’s Blood owned by others would be really nice. I really like how he illustrated the recovery of the plant over time. I’ve seen enough that I’d try Dragon's Blood based on those photos alone. I wouldn’t try it on a plant I just paid $100 for but I’d try it on one that was in the $25 or $35 range. 

And gonewild, somebody has to be the first. You could very well be onto something here. I don't think it's snake oil like SuperThrive but what do I know.

Sorry, editing to correct name to user name.


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## Rick (Sep 17, 2007)

I've seen the research on some of the Phyton products digging around on the internet. They didn't use a bunch of orchids to demonstrate the efficacy of the products, and they were targeting commercial growers rather than hobbyists to make it worth their while. They did use potatoes or some other basic crop plant.

I was actually pretty surprised as to how low the success rate was to consider the product effective. It was statistically significant compared to the untreated plants, but not much beyond that.


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## TheLorax (Sep 17, 2007)

Thank you Rick.


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## bwester (Sep 17, 2007)

whoa whoa whoa!!!
I know we did not bring the awful erwinia into this. In my experience, since I did loose half my collection to this nasty bug, the ONLY thing that will work on erwinia is Phyton 27. trust me, i tried it all.


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## Rick (Sep 17, 2007)

bwester said:


> whoa whoa whoa!!!
> I know we did not bring the awful erwinia into this. In my experience, since I did loose half my collection to this nasty bug, the ONLY thing that will work on erwinia is Phyton 27. trust me, i tried it all.



I've lost plenty to erwinia too, but Phyton 27 was no panacea for me. I've had better "luck" with dragons blood.


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## bwester (Sep 17, 2007)

strange. phyton saved me.


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## TheLorax (Sep 17, 2007)

Best to choose the product within our personal comfort zone. Phyton 27, both a bactericide and a fungicide, would be my choice for a more expensive plant and I will admit that I wouldn't use anything but Phyton 27 on a plant that was a gift regardless of whether it was common or not but I'd still be willing to try the Dragon's Blood on an easily replaced plant.


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## gonewild (Sep 17, 2007)

bwester said:


> whoa whoa whoa!!!
> I know we did not bring the awful erwinia into this. In my experience, since I did loose half my collection to this nasty bug, the ONLY thing that will work on erwinia is Phyton 27. trust me, i tried it all.



You tried it all? 
Is that a factual statement? 
Did you try Dragon's Blood on your plants and have it not work?


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Sep 17, 2007)

Corn gluten meal!!! That's the kind of stuff that gives organics a bad name. I'll never forgive Garden's Alive (an otherwise decent company) for marketing that crap. When it first came out, I had a student investigating its pre-emergent herbicidal properties in a research experiment...the only way it worked, when it did, was by getting moldy...and perhaps the mold killed some seedlings. I actually bought some 2 years ago. For the hell of it, I planted grass seed where I had applied it...seed came up normally. as did crabgrass and other weeds....At least Garden's Alive admitted that diatomaceous earth isn't effective...but they should really discontinue this garbage. Take care, Eric


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## TheLorax (Sep 17, 2007)

Hey wait a minute  I think it works! I do reapply it every 4 weeks but I think it works! Don't I count for anything? So don't burst my bubble here and lead me to believe that all I've been doing with my corn gluten meal is fertilizing and making my ground look a godawful baby barf yellow for the past few years? 

What did you think about the research done by Iowa State if you don't mind my asking?


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## bwester (Sep 17, 2007)

gonewild said:


> You tried it all?
> Is that a factual statement?
> Did you try Dragon's Blood on your plants and have it not work?



ok Lance, you called my bluff. At the time, i had tried most chemicals i could get at our ag supply store. The problem with erwinia is that it kills so fast and thus, requires and extremely aggressive treatment. 
I still am waiting for the opportunity to try my DB out though.


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## gonewild (Sep 17, 2007)

bwester said:


> ok Lance, you called my bluff. At the time, i had tried most chemicals i could get at our ag supply store. The problem with erwinia is that it kills so fast and thus, requires and extremely aggressive treatment.
> I still am waiting for the opportunity to try my DB out though.



That's better. oke:
I hope you never have the need to try the Dragon's Blood. At least now you have it should you need it.


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## Rick (Sep 17, 2007)

TheLorax said:


> Best to choose the product within our personal comfort zone. Phyton 27, both a bactericide and a fungicide, would be my choice for a more expensive plant and I will admit that I wouldn't use anything but Phyton 27 on a plant that was a gift regardless of whether it was common or not but I'd still be willing to try the Dragon's Blood on an easily replaced plant.



Phyton 27 is Copper sulfate and soap. Which means its a generic biocide in the right dose. It will whack aquatic crustaceans and other invertebrates at much lower doses than it will kill a fungus, or most bacteria. The active agent is copper, the soap is there to get the copper past cell walls. There's less magic to it than dragons blood, but not much more than hydrogen peroxide. 

True antibacterials came from fungi, and the range of properties from phytochemicals is astounding, so to me switching to herbal cures is more like surgery rather than sledgehammer medicine.

I have found a company that specializes in antibiotics and hormones for plants, and carbenocillin was one of their recommendations for Erwinia, however the cost of most of their products was about like Enstar. So treating one plant at a time was not cost effective.


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## gonewild (Sep 17, 2007)

When using aggressive copper compounds such as Phyton 27 as a spray or drench would there also not be a substantial loss of beneficial micro fauna? We don't really want to kill all bacteria and fungi in our collections do we?


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## bwester (Sep 17, 2007)

There's a lot more to Phyton than the 'copper sulfate and liquid dawn' description you give. I'll admit theres a lot to be found in the realm of natural cures, but like damn near every farmer and professional grower in the world, I'll take the stuff produced in a well-funded lab anyday. Nothing against DB, but if it was clearly better than Phyton and Cleary's for serious infections... well enough said.


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## kentuckiense (Sep 17, 2007)

bwester said:


> if it was clearly better than Phyton and Cleary's for serious infections... well enough said.



As mentioned before, nobody has been able to synthesize the stuff.


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## bwester (Sep 17, 2007)

kentuckiense said:


> As mentioned before, nobody has been able to synthesize the stuff.



SO???? WTF does that matter????
our ability to synthesize something does in no way make that thing more powerful. Many of the compounds in it I'm sure can be synthesized and its only a matter of time before we synthesize anything.


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## TheLorax (Sep 17, 2007)

Phyton 27 is pretty much all I know to use when I am confronted with an infection that I haven't had cultured where a secondary bacterial infection, or secondary fungal infection for that matter, could very well be present but undetected. How many times have we sent a sample out for culture only to learn that there was more than one "bad boy" present? The way I figure it is that once a plant is stressed that it is open to further infections and that you act quick and don't sit around waiting to culture your foe. Ok, there are other fungicides such as Captan out there for some types of fungal infections but I don't want it in my house and would prefer to let the plant die than to use Captan so I would definitely try the Dragon's Blood in that particular situation. I am admittedly a creature of habit but am willing to experiment a little bit, just not on a real expensive or gift plant out the gate. Disclaimer- I've only used the Phyton 27 on carnivorous plants and hoya, never on an orchid. To date, the only issues I have had with orchids have been scale and that lousy slug. Based on my understanding, I would think that mycorrhizal fungi would be killed by copper sulfate but what would it matter if we already lose our beneficial bacteria and fungi every time we repot into fresh medium? And, if one was concerned, one could always place a drape around the base of the plant and remove it when finished spraying the plant.


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## bwester (Sep 17, 2007)

Yeah, the way i see it is that I can introduce new beneficials simply by re-potting, they're replaceable.


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## bwester (Sep 18, 2007)

off to bed


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## kentuckiense (Sep 18, 2007)

bwester said:


> There's a lot more to Phyton than the 'copper sulfate and liquid dawn' description you give.



From the Phyton27 website:

ACTIVE INGREDIENT
Copper Sulphate Pentahydrate*.... 21.36%
INERT INGREDIENTS................ 78.64%
.....................................................100.00%
*Copper as Metallic..........................5.5%

I'm not being snarky. I'm curious as to what the inert ingredients are.


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## gonewild (Sep 18, 2007)

Let's not let this discussion become a war between natural and synthetic chemicals but rather let's discuss options available and their merits based on practical use and the real world.

When you kill off the beneficial you take away nature's (the plant's) built in infection fighter. Beneficial bacteria and fungi that exist naturally on a leaf's surface may very well be what prevent an erwina infection from starting in the first place.

When humans use antibiotics they often experience secondary infections as a result. Yeast infections? That is because the beneficials have been killed off. Are we so sure plants are effected any differently? Plants do not have an immune system like animals do, they likely depend on symbiotic microbes to destroy harmful pathogens before they enter the healthy plant tissue and start a destructive infection.


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## gonewild (Sep 18, 2007)

bwester said:


> SO???? WTF does that matter????
> our ability to synthesize something does in no way make that thing more powerful. Many of the compounds in it I'm sure can be synthesized and its only a matter of time before we synthesize anything.




Yes, synthesize it under a patented process and then you can pay $80 per bottle instead of $10.00 for the natural product.


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## gonewild (Sep 18, 2007)

kentuckiense said:


> From the Phyton27 website:
> 
> ACTIVE INGREDIENT
> Copper Sulphate Pentahydrate*.... 21.36%
> ...



Thanks for posting that.
The inert ingredient is likely water. (expensive water)
It appears Phyton27 does not even have soap in it?
How much does it cost?

Do a little reading about copper toxicity to plants. 
What effect might excessive concentrations of copper have on a slipper's roots?


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## TheLorax (Sep 18, 2007)

Good question. I don't know what exactly the inert ingredients in Phyton 27 are. Inert ingredients can be solvents or they can be shelf life extenders or simply an ingredient that makes the Phyton easier to use. I don't believe it's required by law to list inert ingredients but don't let the word inert fool you, some of these "inert" ingredients can be anything but benign. Which happens to be one of the reasons why I'd prefer to use a "natural" when practical to do so. My interpretation of when it is practical to do so is going to vary from that of others. 

Regardless of whether a fungicide is synthetic or "natural", it's being used to control or arrest a fungal infection. Follow with me here for a moment please. This Dragon's Blood allegedly has both antibacterial and antifungal properties so what makes it more selective in the types of bacteria and fungi that it destroys than a synthetic such as Phyton? It was my understanding that systemic synthetic fungicides were overall more selective than the naturals which is why people have been using them as prophylactics. Is my understanding correct?


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## gonewild (Sep 18, 2007)

TheLorax said:


> Regardless of whether a fungicide is synthetic or "natural", it's being used to control or arrest a fungal infection. Follow with me here for a moment please. This Dragon's Blood allegedly has both antibacterial and antifungal properties so what makes it more selective in the types of bacteria and fungi that it destroys than a synthetic such as Phyton?



The method of application would make Dragon's Blood more selective....

Dragon's Blood treatment consists of a drop or two of the resin directly to the infected area of the plant tissue. Because of the natural properties of the resin it dries on the infected area without excessive runnoff. It persists and remains in the applied area and does not effect the other surfaces of the plant so it should have no ill effect on the beneficial bacteria in other parts of the plant.
Whereas... Phyton27 is applied as a spray to the entire plant and must (recommended) be repeated. Complete coverage would lead to elimination of beneficial microbes for an extended period of time.

Do you follow that line of thought?



> It was my understanding that systemic synthetic fungicides were overall more selective than the naturals which is why people have been using them as prophylactics. Is my understanding correct?



I don't think a systemic chemical would be more selective than one applied to a specific local area.

Phyton27 is not a systemic. Copper does not move well through plant tissue.
I don't even think it is a synthetic is it? According to the label it basically contains only a small amount of copper sulfate which is a natural mineral.


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## TheLorax (Sep 18, 2007)

Oh oh oh, I think I just figured out what bwester was alluding to. Copper Sulfate is a heavy metal and "the ions fit between the enzyme structure and alter the structure, preventing the enzyme from acting on any substrate" and to add further insult to injury, "Copper ions actually slightly catalyse the hydrogen peroxide reaction the CuSo4 is supposed to inhibit. " Am I on the right track? And H2O2 degrades rapidly while the CuSo4 doesn't.


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## TheLorax (Sep 18, 2007)

gonewild, apples and oranges right about now. Just saw what you typed.


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## bwester (Sep 18, 2007)

gonewild said:


> Let's not let this discussion become a war between natural and synthetic chemicals but rather let's discuss options available and their merits based on practical use and the real world.
> 
> When you kill off the beneficial you take away nature's (the plant's) built in infection fighter. Beneficial bacteria and fungi that exist naturally on a leaf's surface may very well be what prevent an erwina infection from starting in the first place.
> 
> When humans use antibiotics they often experience secondary infections as a result. Yeast infections? That is because the beneficials have been killed off. Are we so sure plants are effected any differently? Plants do not have an immune system like animals do, they likely depend on symbiotic microbes to destroy harmful pathogens before they enter the healthy plant tissue and start a destructive infection.




Damn fine point, Lance.


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## bwester (Sep 18, 2007)

Phyton 27 IS a systemic and since erwinia is a systemic bacteria, thats why i would use the Phyton. And Lauren, I dont think thats exactly what I was alluding to and its not a heavy metal. 
grumpy morning. sorry.


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## Rick (Sep 18, 2007)

gonewild said:


> Thanks for posting that.
> The inert ingredient is likely water. (expensive water)
> It appears Phyton27 does not even have soap in it?
> How much does it cost?
> ...



The delivery agents (adjuctvants) for insecticides and herbicides are considered inert ingredients. They are surfactants (soaps), some of which can be more specialized than Dawn, but not necessarily. That's why when you mix up a batch of Phyton it sud's up. Copper sulfate by itself does not produce suds when you shake it up in water.

We did a bunch of toxicity testing of various herbicides and adjuctvent combinations to a bioluminescent bacteria. Although the carriers are classified as inert, they often had higher toxicity to the bacteria than the herbicide. Granted that herbicides are designed to target plants and not bacteria, but surfactants are generally destructive of bacterial cell walls.


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## goldenrose (Sep 18, 2007)

Hmmm .... interesting ....... look what you guys were up to while I was at work last night! oke: 
Results from both sides have indicated it works - it doesn't! Those of us that are experienced will probably continue to stick with what works for us. 
I feel sorry for the newbie - OMG WHAT IS ONE TO DO?!


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## Rick (Sep 18, 2007)

goldenrose said:


> Hmmm .... interesting ....... look what you guys were up to while I was at work last night! oke:
> Results from both sides have indicated it works - it doesn't! Those of us that are experienced will probably continue to stick with what works for us.
> I feel sorry for the newbie - OMG WHAT IS ONE TO DO?!




Exactly what you suggested. Try different things and find out what works best for you.

At least one laboratory trial of products to control erwinia that I found on the web a ways back only demonstrated "cure" rates of only 10 to 20 percent of the untreated control (with its own cure rate). That's better than nothing, and may be real good if you are concerned about loosing a whole field of produce. But us orchid hobbyists only work with a couple plants at a time, and invest allot of energy and emotion into every plant, so with those odds most orchid people wouldn't consider these products as very effective. I think we have higher expectations about the efficacy of drugs than the world really operates at.


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## goldenrose (Sep 18, 2007)

Well said Rick! I was glad to read your previous post on the 'results' of what makes a chemical considered effective. Drives me right back to DB, neem oil, anything but a chemical as a last resort. There is a whole world out there of essential oils, I will continue to try this & that. It's funny - have you ever heard of 'super bugs' resulting with the use of essential oils?? Has one ever heard of resistant 'bugs' resulting with the use of essential oils?? It's really too bad it's being overlooked, but then again if it were satisfying the scientific results group then as previously stated, the $10 bottle would be costing $80!


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## TheLorax (Sep 18, 2007)

> Phyton 27 IS a systemic and since erwinia is a systemic bacteria, thats why i would use the Phyton. And Lauren, I don't think thats exactly what I was alluding to and its not a heavy metal.
> grumpy morning. sorry.


 I use the Phyton when I want to "sledge hammer" an infection that may be fungal... may be bacterial... or may be a combination of both. So, when I went poking around late last night to try to figure out what you were talking about and stuck copper sulfate + H2O2 + what ever else I came up with into the search engine that produced what I stuck in quotes, I didn't even come close? Well, that's the pits. For what it's worth, I'd still like to know what you were referring to. Dawn has worked fine for me when I have added it to wettable Orthene and I've used H2O2 around here as a soil drench when we've had a lot of rain and plants were sitting in water for extended periods of time. Premise being that ozygen availability to the roots is vital to nutrient uptake. It's my roots that need to be able to receive oxygen or my plant would be toast. I try my best to wait to water outdoor plants until they absolutely positively need water as it allows water from the last watering to drain completely which then pulls oxygen down through the top of the soil but we're talking about orchids here not trees and shrubs planted outside. I realize this process sort of defies logic but I believe it has helped me save many an outside plant that was drowning from too much rain from the heavens. I've never used H2O2 as an anti bacterial on a plant though. 

I'd like to try to understand why Rick stated, "There's less magic to it than dragons blood, but not much more than hydrogen peroxide".

Yes, I do know that Erwinia is a bacteria. 

I was pretty sure Phyton was a systemic fungicide though and with all the farmers around here using Phyton as a preventative for everything from sooty mold on down the line, I figured it had to be common practice to use it as a prophylactic for other plants. I've not known of anyone using it to thwart off potential bacterial infections but people do use it to treat bacterial infections. I guess I don't understand all that this Dragon's Blood allegedly does for a plant? 

Rick, what were the cure rates for carbenocillin? Fact remains that I'm an entry level orchid hobbyist and inside the home I'll be working with only one or two plants at a time as you mentioned and I'd like to know what would be the best route to go when I don't know whether an infection is fungal... bacterial... or a combination of both. I'm not so much concerned about cost as I would be about increasing the cure rate from 10 - 20% up to maybe at least 30%- 40%.

Please help me understand bwester and Rick. I've truly only had to deal with scale and one slug so far with orchids but the day will come when I'm going to have to address more than just that and I can't be running over to the the extension office with samples that won't come back for Lord knows how long telling me what my plant has. 

Regarding inert ingredients, I don't like it that they are never listed. I long ago learned they could be anything but benign and the surfactant used in RoundUp really concerns me.


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## bwester (Sep 18, 2007)

agrimycin works well to for erwinia. 
good stuff.


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## NYEric (Sep 18, 2007)

TheLorax said:


> Based on my understanding, I would think that mycorrhizal fungi would be killed by copper sulfate but what would it matter if we already lose our beneficial bacteria and fungi every time we repot into fresh medium?



I don't want to lose the the beneficial fungi and bacteria because I grow hydro. I don't use Phyton, only DB as a curative, Physan to clean things, and Captan if I cut a leaf.


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## Inverness (Sep 18, 2007)

Any comments about the EPA requirement of DANGER as the signal word? You don't see this on very many plant protectants. In addition, here's an exerpt from the label...

DANGER: Corrosive. Causes irreversible eye damage and
skin burns. May be fatal if swallowed. Harmful if absorbed
through the skin. Do not get in eyes, on skin, or on clothing.
Prolonged or frequently repeated skin contact may cause
allergic reaction in some individuals.

Ken Brewer


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## NYEric (Sep 18, 2007)

DANGER: Corrosive. Causes irreversible eye damage and
skin burns. May be fatal if swallowed. Harmful if absorbed
through the skin. Do not get in eyes, on skin, or on clothing.
Prolonged or frequently repeated skin contact may cause
allergic reaction in some individuals.=cheap high!


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## gonewild (Sep 18, 2007)

bwester said:


> Damn fine point, Lance.



Just always remember... that every action has a reaction and then the reaction has a reaction. All the action continues until it finally stops and hopefully the first action did not cause so much reaction that there is nothing left to act upon.

:evil:


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## gonewild (Sep 18, 2007)

bwester said:


> Phyton 27 IS a systemic and since erwinia is a systemic bacteria, thats why i would use the Phyton. And Lauren, I dont think thats exactly what I was alluding to and its not a heavy metal.
> grumpy morning. sorry.



OK, good point. Phyton27 must have an inert ingredient that is an active systemic property. I wonder if it really is a systemic that is trans located through the plant or if it is simply absorbed in the areas of application?


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## gonewild (Sep 18, 2007)

goldenrose said:


> Well said Rick! I was glad to read your previous post on the 'results' of what makes a chemical considered effective. Drives me right back to DB, neem oil, anything but a chemical as a last resort. There is a whole world out there of essential oils, I will continue to try this & that. It's funny - have you ever heard of 'super bugs' resulting with the use of essential oils?? Has one ever heard of resistant 'bugs' resulting with the use of essential oils?? It's really too bad it's being overlooked, but then again if it were satisfying the scientific results group then as previously stated, the $10 bottle would be costing $80!



I suppose if essential oils were used in the same manor as "chemicals" Supper Bugs would develop that are resistant to the oils. Plants in nature that contain the essential oils all have their pathogens that have evolved to be resistant to the oil's "chemical" contents.


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## Hien (Sep 18, 2007)

Inverness said:


> Any comments about the EPA requirement of DANGER as the signal word? You don't see this on very many plant protectants. In addition, here's an exerpt from the label...
> 
> DANGER: Corrosive. Causes irreversible eye damage and
> skin burns. May be fatal if swallowed. Harmful if absorbed
> ...



Comments from the EPA.!
Huh!
The same EPA that declared that the air at WTC is clean ! yah!

http://www.epa.gov/opprd001/inerts/
http://www.pesticide.org/inertspage.html
I don't buy the argument of not disclosing the inert for business trade secret for even in a second.
Give me a F.....g break. (Don't they patent every damn things ever exist, therefor there is a length of time that other peoples can not use the same formulae) I believe the real reason is that if they list everything out loud, we may think twice about using their products.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Sep 18, 2007)

Getting back to corn gluten meal....I haven't read anything about it beyond what has been printed up by Gardens alive in their catalog. I thought it sounded like great stuff...I ordered it and my wife yelled at me for putting bright yellow baby puke all over our lawn. It didn't work, but I brought it in for my students to work on...it didn't work for them either, as I said. Many years later, I ordered it again, hoping that maybe it had been improved. I still have baby puke on my lawn. I still get crabgrass. And I still find that I can plant anything I want after applying the stuff without any loss in germination. I'm going back to controlling crabgrass the traditional way...pull the suckers out....while tolerating so many bites from asian tiger mosquitoes that I have become immune to them...and a (very rare) squirt of round-up if they get too dense...Take care, Eric


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## Rick (Sep 18, 2007)

I haven't seen any listed cure rates for carbenocillen. But that's probably the crux of this whole thread. Everybody claims a cure but this is generally a qualitative statement. Our quantified expectations are 100%, an ethical cure supplier would hope for at least 20-30% better than doing nothing at all. By the time all is said and done, a really great cure is one that probably works at least 50% better than doing nothing.

There are an incredible number of variables to account for, and the really good growers are the ones that can read into the most variables and adapt and use the tools they come up with to grow the most/biggest flowers. It's as much magic as science.


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## Rick (Sep 18, 2007)

The superbugs comment kind of cracks me up. I haven't heard about them with regard to essential oils, but I have with regard to new and incredible bacteria species found in streams downstream of cattle yards and sewage treatment plants where there is a constant low dose of various antibiotics.

It's pretty amazing the amount of hormones and antibiotics that people pee out that goes right through the treatment plants into the environment. This is getting to be pretty common knowledge, and there have been some really good high school science fair projects on this topic. But its opened up whole new areas of genetic research and studies on how bacteria evolve and exchange genetic information between each other.


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## TheLorax (Sep 18, 2007)

Maybe you could try it again? It's pretty butt ugly though and there are other products that are considerably cheaper that you don't have to apply as frequently. I spread it around mid March and follow up at 4 week intervals after that. I masque the hideous color by hand spreading a little top soil over the top of it. That practice reduces one's need to wear sunglasses when looking at a bed of plants that has been "treated". I've had decent luck using it but it doesn't kill dandelions for me and I have been using it for three consecutive years which I doubt has much to do with how effective it is although there are those claiming keeping up with using the product does make a difference.

All you have to do to get that desired weed control is to put up with that baby puke on your lawn for 4 years according to this document-
http://www.extension.umn.edu/projects/yardandgarden/ygbriefs/h531cornglutenmeal.html

Here's all I found on it from Iowa state doing a quickie search-
http://www.hort.wisc.edu/mastergardener/Features/weeds/corngluten/corngluten.htm

Here's another "how to"-
http://www.hort.iastate.edu/gluten/pdf/how-to-use-corn-gluten-meal.pdf

And here's the corn gluten meal research page, doesn't look too beefy to me-
http://www.hort.iastate.edu/gluten/?

They all claim it works but then most of them are making money selling it too. Not so surprisingly, almost every web page I visited claiming it worked also just happened to have a handy dandy list of suppliers made available to viewers.

Seriously, I think it is working for me but I apply it frequently and start while the snow is basically still on the ground. It looks rather festive around here. It's that white/yellow combination that smacks you in the face when you drive up to our home that is so... unexpected at that time of year.


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## TheLorax (Sep 18, 2007)

> Our quantified expectations are 100%, an ethical cure supplier would hope for at least 20-30% better than doing nothing at all. By the time all is said and done, a really great cure is one that probably works at least 50% better than doing nothing.


 I'd be happy with around 30%.


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## Rick (Sep 19, 2007)

TheLorax said:


> I'd be happy with around 30%.



I think I'm getting at least that with dragons blood. But I have to pay attention to the rest of the environment, particularly humidity and airflow. I'm also finding allot of species specific requirements.

I had a decent batch of phrag lindlianum seedlings. I though they would like higher light with intermediate temps. But as they matured and started adding new growths, the erwinia kicked in. Using DB I would get a temporary hold on the infection, until another growth would start and get a more vigorous infection taking out more leaves and growths until taking out the whole plant. I moved some of the treated plants into the shade, and this seems to have stopped the recurrence issue. Several plants that never got infected in the first place started growing at twice their initial rate when moved into the same shadier/cooler spots.

So the moral of the story would be to optimize growing conditions before spending to much time and effort on cures. I used to be in the aquarium and herp biz, and my philosophy was that if something is sick the environment must be wrong. So when I get a sick plant I consider the cure as buying time to find and correct the environmental issue that I'm not seeing.


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## gonewild (Sep 19, 2007)

Rick said:


> I think I'm getting at least that with dragons blood. But I have to pay attention to the rest of the environment, particularly humidity and airflow. I'm also finding allot of species specific requirements.
> 
> I had a decent batch of phrag lindlianum seedlings. I though they would like higher light with intermediate temps. But as they matured and started adding new growths, the erwinia kicked in. Using DB I would get a temporary hold on the infection, until another growth would start and get a more vigorous infection taking out more leaves and growths until taking out the whole plant. I moved some of the treated plants into the shade, and this seems to have stopped the recurrence issue. Several plants that never got infected in the first place started growing at twice their initial rate when moved into the same shadier/cooler spots.
> 
> So the moral of the story would be to optimize growing conditions before spending to much time and effort on cures. I used to be in the aquarium and herp biz, and my philosophy was that if something is sick the environment must be wrong. So when I get a sick plant I consider the cure as buying time to find and correct the environmental issue that I'm not seeing.



Excellent advice.


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## TheLorax (Sep 19, 2007)

> But I have to pay attention to the rest of the environment, particularly humidity and airflow. I'm also finding allot of species specific requirements... So the moral of the story would be to optimize growing conditions before spending to much time and effort on cures... So when I get a sick plant I consider the cure as buying time to find and correct the environmental issue that I'm not seeing.


 I've never found a substitute for providing good growing conditions. No silver bullet out there to the best of my knowledge.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Sep 19, 2007)

Lauren- I use it the same way you do...and since I still have a big bag of it in my garage I will continue to use it until it runs out in a few years. And I'll never buy it again.......Eric


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## TheLorax (Sep 19, 2007)

I have a whole bin of it. I use it in and amongst the plants I have along the walkway from the driveway to the front doors. 

We should take a picture to post of how bad this product looks when applied without a light layer of top soil. They probably don't believe us.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Sep 20, 2007)

I wouldn't want anyone to lose their appetite! or their lunch.....Eric


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## NYEric (Oct 6, 2007)

*Dragon's Blood bump.*

Hi. anyone got some DB to spare that they want to send/sell me? I have a couple of plants that I'm doing some control antifungal work and of course ran out of Dragon's Blood. I ordered more from Shop Gone Wild but might not survive the wait. If so, let me know please. Thanx.


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## goldenrose (Oct 6, 2007)

I have an extra bottle I just got last week. I placed the order, 3-4 days later I had it. Depending on when you placed your order it might get there before mine! Just let me know......


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## Corbin (Oct 8, 2007)

goldenrose said:


> Hmmm .... interesting ....... look what you guys were up to while I was at work last night! oke:
> Results from both sides have indicated it works - it doesn't! Those of us that are experienced will probably continue to stick with what works for us.
> I feel sorry for the newbie - OMG WHAT IS ONE TO DO?!



Exactly, and that is why I like the forum though. It at least give you more than just the opinion of the author of a book.


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## Heather (Oct 8, 2007)

Rick said:


> I think I'm getting at least that with dragons blood. But I have to pay attention to the rest of the environment, particularly humidity and airflow. I'm also finding allot of species specific requirements.
> 
> I had a decent batch of phrag lindlianum seedlings. I though they would like higher light with intermediate temps. But as they matured and started adding new growths, the erwinia kicked in. Using DB I would get a temporary hold on the infection, until another growth would start and get a more vigorous infection taking out more leaves and growths until taking out the whole plant. I moved some of the treated plants into the shade, and this seems to have stopped the recurrence issue. Several plants that never got infected in the first place started growing at twice their initial rate when moved into the same shadier/cooler spots.
> 
> So the moral of the story would be to optimize growing conditions before spending to much time and effort on cures. I used to be in the aquarium and herp biz, and my philosophy was that if something is sick the environment must be wrong. So when I get a sick plant I consider the cure as buying time to find and correct the environmental issue that I'm not seeing.



That's pretty interesting. I have a plant that has not been growing well, and was treated w/ DB, but it was months ago, before it was in my possession, actually. Just another sign that my conditions are NOT right at this point in time. Pfftt...


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## NYEric (Oct 8, 2007)

Heather said:


> That's pretty interesting. I have a plant that has not been growing well, and was treated w/ DB, but it was months ago, before it was in my possession, actually. Just another sign that my conditions are NOT right at this point in time. Pfftt...



If the plant has not been growing well, [whatever that means], and it's previously been treated w/ DB for a fungal problem. Maybe you should try teh DB now that it's in your possession [lots of s's there]. I find DB works well in high humidity situations, like S/H or how I grow. Of course if a plant being wet is spreading fungus through the water vector I would move it into a slightly drier situation until the problem has been controlled.


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## Heather (Oct 8, 2007)

I don't have DB, but it also isn't still suffering, I think the problem was with Erwinia and I've not had a problem since I received the plant but it does seem to be a slower grower. That is very likely due to my cooler conditions. 

My plants were not growing very well because they had been brought inside to a 65° environment. If they aren't cool growers, they are likely to sulk.


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## NYEric (Oct 9, 2007)

65 degrees?! How do you do that? Is it really that cold there? It was about 80 in NYC this week.


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## Heather (Oct 9, 2007)

Yep, 49 when I got up this morning, and I live in a basement.


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## NYEric (Oct 9, 2007)

Move down to the southern tier, NYC!


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