# Good fun and THE GAUNTLET



## orcoholic (May 26, 2015)

First, this is somewhat in good fun, but i think the nonsense about using fert at 10ppmN should be put to sleep - (and allow me to finally declare victory over all who take pleasure starving your orchids). 

I think this is very bad advice and new growers who read this are being led down a road the leads directly out of the hobby - perhaps even into growing African violets

Every time we discuss it, a usual response is "in this paper....", or "what is your source".

I've posted 10 pictures of orchids that are in bloom in my greenhouse right now - as we speak. No papers, no studies, just good, sound feeding and culture.

*My challenge to all you orchid starvation specialists is if you beatem, showem*.

I think a fair ground rule is that you should have grown your orchids at a very low N rate for at least a couple of years. No new specimen purchases allowed. That's it.

This is my first time trying to use Photobucket, so if it doesn't work I'll try again.

Roths - 'Sam's Best' x 'Rex'




Another multifloral




Lycaste macrophylla




Aerangis leuteo-alba rhodisticta




Encyclia mariae and buds




Den. attenuatum




Laelia purpuratas - flammea and carnea



Paph. kolopakingii x philippinense alba




Paph. PEOY x philipp.




Paph. Susan Booth




Paph. roths. 'Sam's Best' x 'Rex'




This is stonei x roths. 3 spikes are showing - a fourth is on the way




I didn't worry about getting good pics of the flowers. We're just dealing with growth habit here. The leaf color looks lighter than it really is - because of the harshness of the sun I guess.

*I've showed you mine. Now show me yours.*

Hope to heck this works.


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## orcoholic (May 26, 2015)

It's a miracle. It worked. Thanks to all that helped me figure out how to do this


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## NYEric (May 26, 2015)

Nice Mike, but what are you recommending for fertilizing/feeding ratios? BTW if you have a nice Encyclia mariae, let me know. Also, I'd like a closer look at that Paph Temptation (semi album)!!


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## Alex (May 26, 2015)

Just to be sure, you don't grow them in sun that strong, do you? You just moved them for the pictures?


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## orcoholic (May 26, 2015)

Alex said:


> Just to be sure, you don't grow them in sun that strong, do you? You just moved them for the pictures?



Right Alex, just took the pics in the sun.


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## gonewild (May 26, 2015)

I expected picture #10 to be an African violet!


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## Justin (May 26, 2015)

the roth Sam's Best x Rex is quite nice and very well grown.


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## Marco (May 26, 2015)

Wow. Color me green. Those are awesome multis and well grown !


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## Ozpaph (May 26, 2015)

Those plants look very healthy.


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## AdamD (May 26, 2015)

I must admit, I've been cheating on K-lite with a high urea 20-20-20... Mostly just on my bigger multis and catasetums. Only downfall is no micros or ca/mg. 

What do you feed those beasts?


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## emydura (May 26, 2015)

Whatever your doing just keep doing it. Your plants look very healthy. That is a lovely Susan Booth. Great form. The roth looks amazing as well.


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## abax (May 26, 2015)

I think he feeds those beasts raw meat! I'd enjoy hearing
how often and what kind of fertilizer you use. I don't
grow multis, but I do grow Paphs. and Phrags. and am a
tad conflicted about just how much fertilizer to use.

Your plants look healthy and happy...just the right color of green and
nice fat leaves.


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## Bjorn (May 27, 2015)

Nice plants particularly the C. purpuratas, has always been a bit difficult for me. Can you disclose some info about your conditions? Are you growing outside and where are you located?
I understand that you have no, whatsoever belief in the result we obtain by using lower amounts of fertiliser, but I must assure you that they are for real.
Whether or not you would like to go deeper into understanding the nutrition of the plants you grow or just grow them, that is a personal choice, I am interested in the details due to my education, I studied chemistry, and that is why I started making my own mixes. 
I am not certain that 10ppm N is giving the optimal results, but for me it has given healthier plants. It is primarily due to deceases that I did reduce the feeding. An unexpected side-effect was better growth. I believe that much of the results can be attributed to the changes I have done in the micro-nutrients so for most it may not be that easily accessible.
Fully agree with what you write, its the long term results that matters and so far, I have not used 10ppm N for that long time. If 20ppm N is included, then we can talk about 1.5years, but still, its only 5 months at 10ppm. I am watching the progress carefully.:evil:


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## orcoholic (May 27, 2015)

abax said:


> I think he feeds those beasts raw meat! I'd enjoy hearing
> how often and what kind of fertilizer you use. I don't
> grow multis, but I do grow Paphs. and Phrags. and am a
> tad conflicted about just how much fertilizer to use.



This sounds complicated, but it's not after you get used to it. Since I mix up about 10 gallons of stock to be applied at 100-1 ratio, each part is an 8oz cup.

I use RO water and add some well water - maybe 5%. I don't really know because the RO water is held in an opaque tank and a valve is turned to let in well water.

The basic fertilizer Jack's 20-10-20 Peat Lite. It has NH3 and Nh4 and the Ca-Mg ratio is about right. The Peat Lite gives a double shot of micro nutrients - so maybe that's something that should be explored more. 

When the plants are in active growth (spring and fall) I add 1 part NH4 Ammonium Nitrate) to each 4 parts of 20-10-20. I don't use any NH4 when the orchids aren't growing (winter and hot summer). I also add 2 parts NH3 (Calcium Nitrate) to every 8 parts of 20-10-20 Peat Lite. I add 1/4 part MgSO4 to every 1 part of NH4 and NH3 (aka The Stone Ratio).

When the orchids are in active growth I use an Ec of .8 - 1 and when they aren't I use an Ec of .5 or less. 

My pH is always as close to 6.5 as I can get it. *I think this is very important.*

The above is used every time I water during the growing seasons. Every once in a while, during the summer and winter, I'll just use straight water. Usually it's when I don;t feel like getting my hands blue mixing up a new batch.

Everything is grown in the same greenhouse. There is a 30% shade cloth inside that stays there 100% of the time. I put another 30% over the whole greenhouse from early spring to late fall (March thru Oct).

The minimum temp is 60F. I grow a lot Phals for my business. THe max temp is whatever it goes to in the summer. The thermometer goes to 104 and then just says OL. It's at OL about every day the sun is out in the summer.

There's very good air circulation. I think this is important to not only to prevent disease but to blow off the humidity that the leaves transpire thus forcing the roots to take up more nutrients from the pots.

Phals are grown in NZSM. Everything else is grown in medium sized Orchiata with a little charcoal and some perlite. The medium is made til it looks right. Phrags grow in CHC mixed with a little charcoal.

If you're a hobbyist with a reasonably sized collection you can get a literal lifetime supply (50 lb bags) of the stuff I mentioned above for a couple hundred dollars.

Oh yeah - I keep the raw meat for me.


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## orcoholic (May 27, 2015)

Bjorn said:


> I understand that you have no, whatsoever belief in the result we obtain by using lower amounts of fertiliser, but I must assure you that they are for real.
> Whether or not you would like to go deeper into understanding the nutrition of the plants you grow or just grow them, that is a personal choice, I am interested in the details due to my education, I studied chemistry, and that is why I started making my own mixes.



Bjorn,

I respect your scientific background and need to look into different nutritional possibilities.

Believe me, before I settled on what is described in the prior post, I tried every new fad that came around. The methods i use are the result of observations made by trying different methods - including low fertilizing, growing in clay pellets, growing in only perlite, growing in rockwool, and a lot of other ways too. And, after spending a lot of money and time killing a lot of orchids.

Try the 10ppm method. But, don't leave the hobby if it doesn't work. Keep trying til you find something that works if 10ppm doesn't.

Just answer one question - 

What's the reasoning with growing at that rate if a higher rate doesn't burn the roots or do any harm? 

Surely it can't be the cost of using the extra fertilizer. That probably amounts to less than a penny per watering - How much difference can the cost per gallon be between .1 tsp per gallon and .5 tsp per gallon. I just don't get it.

Don't theories turn into practicalities when there are visible, proven results? The 10ppmer's have a chance to show their stuff. The gauntlet has been thrown. Let's see something.


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## gonewild (May 27, 2015)

orcoholic said:


> The 10ppmer's have a chance to show their stuff. The gauntlet has been thrown. Let's see something.



I'm not a 10ppmer. 
Just to secure your point can you show a picture of your plants in your growing area? A picture that shows the other 990 plants are just as nice as these 10 select plants?


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## orcoholic (May 27, 2015)

gonewild said:


> I'm not a 10ppmer.
> Just to secure your point can you show a picture of your plants in your growing area? A picture that shows the other 990 plants are just as nice as these 10 select plants?



I'm detecting a little information highway skepticism. Here goes:

This was one Cym tracyanum - divided now, and also sold several




Some more multis




Some Catts




Some more orchids - okay so the greenhouse need some organization




Some hanging orchids




A phal gigantea




A couple Onc Ints. Only grow a couple of these


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## orcoholic (May 27, 2015)

Here's some more.


Some Phal mariae and luedemanniana




Mostly sandies




Some more luedemannianas - all of these and the others are from one single orchid. they keiki like crazy




A Psychopsis




Some Den finesterides




Some Phrag compots




Ludisia discolor




Some Phrags, Chinese Cyms, and Dens




997, 998, 1000!

So far, nothing from the 10ppmers. I'm out of gauntlets too.


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## orcoholic (May 27, 2015)

Here's the gigantea


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## cnycharles (May 27, 2015)

I've been in the greenhouse and can attest that things look great. ...and also that there is a lot of air movement which I agree can help a lot of issues and drive a bit more uptake activity


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Marco (May 27, 2015)

wow.....im speechless....


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## SlipperKing (May 27, 2015)

Marco said:


> wow.....im speechless....



I'm not

I ain't at 10 and I don't think too many are except for Rick Lockwood. Maybe 20 will work?
The idea here is to feed what the plants can use and not pollute the rest of us in the process with all the run off overfeeders tend to do. Hell, that's what the toxicologists have been tell the farmers for years, save your money and don't overfeed. Rotate crops, do the "organic gardening" thing. 

I'm not sure what kind of ppm you're feeding base on what you have told us so far and it could be the same as what I started out at when we came together and started using K lite. I was in the 50ppm vicinity starting out now I'm down to 20 ppm of N based on the K lite formula. For that last 18 months or maybe longer. Check out my PICs and see if you can see what I'm seeing.
Cat tigrina- each additional growth, larger then the previous










What you can't see is all the roots, look through the bench wire





How about my "big boy" neo?





The Middle Child?





What about this old clone of Cat xisabellae? Every growth the same as the last one. Never skipped a beat from years of abuse at 100ppm 20-20-20 to 20ppm K lite stuff. Its ever caring a seed capsule bullise here wanted.





You may have already seen the ecuadorense or schlimii I posted in S/H 









but what about Sorcerer's Apprentice, a monster; 






or After Glo#1




#2





Cat aclandae in a 8 inch basket?





How about a Bulbo phalinopise each leaf bigger then its previous?




Phrag Albopurpuratum in a 6 inch aircone





roth in a 10 inch wire potted for 6 six years at least. Its not stunted nor is it starving


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## SlipperKing (May 27, 2015)

If you all need more convincing, try this Cat bicolor var. braziliense. I don't see the growths going backwards, do you?






One of my more problem kids in the house, Bulbo Tanya Jacobs. I still get a little leaf tip dieback





Oh and for Lance (PS they get K lite as well)









One last shot just to show I wasn't too selective


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## Bjorn (May 28, 2015)

Some mighty good shots from various greenhouses. Interesting concept with that multiple staging Rick.
Btw, there is one thing that I have not mentioned that speaks for the supply of lower amounts of fertiliser; the need for repotting. I hardly repot for any other reason than providing space (and weeding ferns!!). I'll bet some of the pots are roots only, the plants have been there for ages and the original compost is all gone. Removing most of the repotting is attractive wouldn't you agree?


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## SlipperKing (May 28, 2015)

Yes Bjorn, the stacked benches increase the growing space. Each level has vinyl plastic slung under them to catch water and drain it out on either end. And yes, I do have a nice collection of ferns starting that I have to weed out. I also have a nice collection of mosses growing everywhere which I never had with high N/feed ratios either.


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## Bjorn (May 28, 2015)

Perhaps we should start a thread of fern and moss Pictures? I must have at least 6-7 differert fern-species coming from no-where


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## orcoholic (May 28, 2015)

Slipperking,

Really nice growing. 

"As far as polluting for the rest of us", if you added all the excess fertilizer that all the orchid growers, in all the world, forever have put into the ecosystem, it probably would not add up to what the guy with the cornfield down the street puts in in a year.

That said, your plants look really good.


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## hbozeman (May 28, 2015)

Looks great, Rick! Looking forward to meeting you, hopefully some time this summer when we visit the kids in Manvel.
Hugh


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## gonewild (May 28, 2015)

orcoholic said:


> Slipperking,
> 
> Really nice growing.
> 
> "As far as polluting for the rest of us", if you added all the excess fertilizer that all the orchid growers, in all the world, forever have put into the ecosystem, it probably would not add up to what the guy with the cornfield down the street puts in in a year.



Except the cornfield in in ag land and the orchid pollution in in the cities where all the excess salts have to be dealt with by treatment plants and get concentrated and then enter the groundwater supply and effect the entire population of the city and kill the minnows in the only stream the city has left and then the stream grows algae and the white ducks turn green and it's yucky for the kids.

That's what some Greenies say about that.
oke:


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## NYEric (May 28, 2015)

Unfortunately I under-feed my plants because we water so often but I'm not around to apply fertilizer. I will try hard to bring my fertilizer/feed up to the lowest of those numbers!

BTW, ..:rollhappy: !!


SlipperKing said:


> What you can't see is all the roots, look through the bench wire


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## gonewild (May 28, 2015)

Look at the plants in both growing areas.
Both growers have beautiful plants.

Pay attention to the differences in the plants and also the areas.

The plants with high dose fertilizer are all mostly growing in opaque plastic pots.
The roots are all white.
The leaves are all clean.
The wood on the benches is clean bare wood.

The plants with the low dose fertilizer are mostly in clear pots or baskets.
The roots are green
The leaves have moss/lichen/algae growing on them
The wood has green growth also.

The difference is the low dose grower has living organisms that have populated his plants and in my opinion the organisms are supplementing his low dose of fertilizers and supplying nutrients for the orchids. 

The high dose grower does not have the organisms growing and therefore needs to supply extra nutrients to get the same result as the low dose grower. Both get good results.

The organisms are growing because the environment is more habitable for them because of the lower salt environment. 

If a high dose grower suddenly tries to switch to low dose then there will be a period of time their plants suffer nutrient deficiency until the living organisms establish. That explains why some growers try K-lite at the low dose and after 6 months have poor results. Rick Lockwood uses extremely low doses but he applies it often and his plants have tons of living organisms all around them. And he did not just suddenly start using only 10ppm he gradually decreased the dose and that allowed the evolution of his growing environment.


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## Bjorn (May 28, 2015)

Wow! Lance thats more than I see!:clap:
Btw. My house is much more organic than Ricks, its full of life, even three toads could have been a bit tidier that is right


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## Happypaphy7 (May 28, 2015)

Lance- I do not agree with your comparison.
The first set of photos does show algae growth on the woods also.

The next three paragraphs are rather problematic.
I wonder what you base those on?
I think Mike (stone) shared information about how runoff water with microorganism as compared to that with none showed actually less amount of nutrients.
Last, overgeneralization of "organism' which covers a lot of different stuff, by just using "green growth" on the wood, which actually is present in both grower's gh.


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## orcoholic (May 28, 2015)

Lance may be onto something here.

I've been trying to create a nice, healthy moss growth forever and have been unable. I have algae in the Phals potted in NZSM growing in clear pots. Any moss that comes in on plants I buy dies pretty quickly. There is a lot of healthy moss growing on a soaker hose that is spread around the floor of the greenhouse and carries the waste water from my RO System. 

The high fert level is probably killing the moss and I do think the live moss does add something to the orchid growth.

I wonder if Stone, who waters at .8-1 too has any moss?


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## gonewild (May 28, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Lance- I do not agree with your comparison.
> The first set of photos does show algae growth on the woods also.



Comparatively the first photos have little algae. I'm not talking about faint green algae. Look at the growth on the wood and plastics in the low dose growers area it covers large surfaces.



> The next three paragraphs are rather problematic.
> I wonder what you base those on?



Based on what I can see in the pictures. Can't you see the differences?


> I think Mike (stone) shared information about how runoff water with microorganism as compared to that with none showed actually less amount of nutrients.



Check again. The numbers he showed had 13% more N with organisms present. And I keep saying the living organisms are providing the nutrients in compounds other than salts or elemental form such as amino acids. The stemflow reports don't look at non standard compounds. Amino acids and complex compounds can provide nutrients in forms that do not move readily with runoff water. The organisms are growing in on and around the orchid roots and leaves.

I have stood in the rain looking at orchids on tree limbs and trunks with the express purpose of seeing how they get the water. In almost all situations they do not get water from stemflow as measured in the research mike showed. The orchids are positioned so they are not in the path of stemflow water. Most of the orchid species grow on horizontal limbs that recieve rainfall directly and not from stem flow. Stem flow measures water and nutrients that are at ground level after running down the stems. 
Come on down and I'll take you out and you can put your head by a wild orchid and look up and imagine where it might get water from. if its raining your going to get raindrops in your eye.



> Last, overgeneralization of "organism' which covers a lot of different stuff, by just using "green growth" on the wood, which actually is present in both grower's gh.



I generalized so that it compasses all possible living organisms. Because we don't know which ones might provide nutrients because no one has studied the possibility. In this case when I said organisms I'm referring to moss, lichen, algae, bacteria, fungi. Personally in nature I think lichens are the major source of nutrients for orchids. I have not seen a wild orchid yet that was not associated with lichen. And usually there are a lot of lichen in, on and around orchid roots. 
The green algae present in the high dose fertilizer environment is an indication that nutrient levels are high.
Look past the green algae and see other algae forms in the low dose environment, that's where the nutrient supplying organisms will be found.


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## orcoholic (May 28, 2015)

Oh yeah,

My roots turn green after they are watered. I always considered that a function of the pH. Before I used RO and checked the pH and ec I had hard well water and the roots would not turn green when watered. The orchids never grew nearly as well either.


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## orcoholic (May 28, 2015)

gonewild said:


> Except the cornfield in in ag land and the orchid pollution in in the cities where all the excess salts have to be dealt with by treatment plants and get concentrated and then enter the groundwater supply and effect the entire population of the city and kill the minnows in the only stream the city has left and then the stream grows algae and the white ducks turn green and it's yucky for the kids.
> oke:



Oh please. 

How many orchid growers do you think there are in any city? And how many have enough plants to have any effect? If your growing in a greenhouse, you probably don't live in a city because you could never get a permit. The only person I know with a lot of orchids in any city is NYEric and his runoff, if any, is being mixed with 9 million others - probably 100 of which grow orchids.


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## gonewild (May 28, 2015)

orcoholic said:


> Oh please.
> 
> How many orchid growers do you think there are in any city? And how many have enough plants to have any effect? If your growing in a greenhouse, you probably don't live in a city because you could never get a permit. The only person I know with a lot of orchids in any city is NYEric and his runoff, if any, is being mixed with 9 million others - probably 100 of which grow orchids.



"Oh Please" back at you. 

Hobby and home fertilizer consumption is more than just orchids. 
For every bag of fertilizer sold in stores at least 99% winds up going down the street. It all adds up. 
A hundred million blooming phals sold each year and probably a good share of those get a bag of food bought to keep them alive and 100% goes down the drain.


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## Happypaphy7 (May 28, 2015)

Lance- Actually if you go back and look at all the pictures, this is what it is.
Heavy feeders- all the new roots are relatively new and up in the air. and I do not see hardly any new roots other than a few on the neofenitia of the latter group. All others in this latter group have older roots from previous season (main cattleya types and others are buried in the semi hydro pot and can't see those).

If you look at those mounted orchids on the heavy feeder group, they are heavily covered with green stuff. 

Plus, green stuff on the wood, little is still "existence" while your earlier claim was "no existence", which makes a huge difference to me and probably to a lot of other readers as well.

and who knows how old those woods are. Maybe the heavily greened up one might just have been around longer or something. 

Lastly, by looking at the pictures, you still can't back your statement overgeneralizing organisms not being there. 
The only thing you can see is the green you mention and they are present in both conditions as opposed to what you say.

Sooooo, back to the point, where are other super light feeders' plant shots, huh?
And don't forget people, only those who have been feeding *strictly* k-light or super light dosage feeding for a extended period of time as the thread starter requested. 

Let the results speak.


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## orcoholic (May 28, 2015)

gonewild said:


> "Oh Please" back at you.
> 
> Hobby and home fertilizer consumption is more than just orchids.
> For every bag of fertilizer sold in stores at least 99% winds up going down the street. It all adds up.
> A hundred million blooming phals sold each year and probably a good share of those get a bag of food bought to keep them alive and 100% goes down the drain.



I'm going to have to Oh Please back at you again.

Of the 100 million orchids sold worldwide, 95% probably never get any water - and if they do it's in the form of a couple ice cubes per day. The other 5% are dead within a couple years.

I agree there's a problem, but it ain't coming from orchid growers. The runoff from the farmers in the "country areas" gets into the same rivers that flow down into the cities. Was it orchid growers using DDT to kill their mealy bugs the ruined the environment? Major combines use the kind of amounts that have to be put in an ecosystem to ruin it.

Now, Maybe if Rick went to 100ppm there could be some effect worldwide, but I'm not sure.


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## gonewild (May 28, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Lance- Actually if you go back and look at all the pictures, this is what it is.
> Heavy feeders- all the new roots are relatively new and up in the air. and I do not see hardly any new roots other than a few on the neofenitia of the latter group. All others in this latter group have older roots from previous season (main cattleya types and others are buried in the semi hydro pot and can't see those).
> 
> If you look at those mounted orchids on the heavy feeder group, they are heavily covered with green stuff.
> ...



There's a difference between the areas and the plants whether you can see the differences I point out or not I see them.


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## SlipperKing (May 28, 2015)

Well I really didn't think I would have to go hear. Just show some orchid plants but to help everyone reading this thread to understand the "environment" my plants grow in I need to post more PICs. Also, this thread started out in the Paphiopedilum folder but really it should be in the culture one.

Realize none of this existed when I fed at the higher concentrations 100-150 ppm of total nitrogen with Peter's balance fertilizer, 20-20-20.

My carpet
















It has even spread to some of my benches






Many of the pots have moss popping up

As you can see this S. Apprentice was last re-potted in 2/2012





90% of the S/H where there is not organics added except for what Mother natural has created










Mosses even come out of the drain holes





Baskets
philippinense





parishii





I've even found it when I peek through the wire! (this is for Eric). That's the vinyl plastic its growing on.





New additions in the last couple of years... toad stools


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## SlipperKing (May 28, 2015)

Now my newest development and I'm not sure if its a potential problem or not is this dark, dark green stuff growing right in front of my wet wall.










This dark stuff grows only in the area of the splash from the w. wall. The wall is ran with city water. The irrigation water is rain (and I've had plenty of that!)
The second PIC above in the bottom right corner this dark/black area has height to it. So a new moss? or the same but affect by the city water?

If anyone was wondering if I didn't have adiquote air movement then here




3 rescued A/C fans set on individual thermostats pulling air through the wall.


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## SlipperKing (May 28, 2015)

Oh, my take on the root issue brought up; When a plant is getting its needs met with the correct concentration of food why make more? Such as, why fix what ain't broke? Root lost due to an imbalance in the pot of course the plant needs more. My plants have roots just not making as many because it doesn't need to.


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## Bjorn (May 29, 2015)

Good Pictures Rick, guess you never saw that moss before cutting down on the fertiliser? I have always had a lot of it, but in my days of heavy feeding (was up to 3-400ppm TDS) the moss used to disappear during summer when evaporatkion (and hence upconcentration of salts) was heavier. During winter when feedeing was reduced, it used to come back. Actually, the moss is a nuisance. It outgrows the seedlings so I have to weed moss additional to the ferns that pop up everywhere. Here are a couple of recent pictures (10ppm N) taken in April and May 2015


randsii's growing vigorously



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Dendrobium parishii, not that big this year but I liked the photo



how to screenshot on windows 7

Dendrobium pierardii



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vietnamense carrying two flowers on one stalk:drool: With some ferns:evil:



images hosting

I have waited for a long time for this one, mexipedium in a bonsai pot. Two flower stalks flowering now but I do not have more recent pictures. seems to branch? This is a good moss-picture and gives a sneak-view under the benches, more ferns.



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More under the benches, I planted these a couple of years ago and they are allowed to sprawl freely. The adiantum is spontaneous btw.



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more understage. I use water-filled containers to moderate temperature fluctuations and inbetween I have placed some birds-nest ferns (aspleniums) Its pretty dark there so almost no weeds thrive



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## SlipperKing (May 29, 2015)

"canhii on concrete," Oh Brother! That is amazing Bjorn! 

Wow, your "Back to Nature" might be approaching the "out-of-hand" situation! You may have to consider buying a machete and start cutting the undergrowth! LOL
Nice PICs


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## Bjorn (May 29, 2015)

SlipperKing said:


> Oh Brother! That is amazing Bjorn!
> 
> Wow, your "Back to Nature" might be approaching the "out-of-hand" situation! You may have to consider buying a machete and start cutting the undergrowth! LOL
> Nice PICs



Its worse:rollhappy: no room for a machete!!!!:sob: I really have to expand soon.........


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## NYEric (May 29, 2015)

SlipperKing said:


> I've even found it when I peek through the wire! (this is for Eric). That's the vinyl plastic its growing on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Bjorn said:


> gif uploader



Thanks. All this mossy, green, goodness. I wish I could do this in my apartment without dripping into the neighbor downstairs apartment.


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## orcoholic (May 29, 2015)

SlipperKing said:


> Oh, my take on the root issue brought up; When a plant is getting its needs met with the correct concentration of food why make more? Such as, why fix what ain't broke? Root lost due to an imbalance in the pot of course the plant needs more. My plants have roots just not making as many because it doesn't need to.



I think the purpose of roots is to support the top growth, and in the case of orchids to make it grab onto the trees. 

The fact that you have less root growth is an indictment of the low ppm method. 

There is no reason, I can think of, to grow more roots if the green parts aren't improving and growing well and thus requiring better root growth. If the green is growing well the plant will need more roots to support it - more nutrition and water are needed for more green.

I see you have some really nice moss colonies, but don't see what that has to do with growing better orchids? Just because there's moss around some orchids growing in the wild, doesn't mean orchids can't be grown better without moss. Orchids in-situ often look pretty sad. I think they would improve a lot with more fertilizer. I am convinced that you need low ppms to grow moss.


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## SlipperKing (May 29, 2015)

Back to your point, so you still think our plants are starving?


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## orcoholic (May 29, 2015)

Here's a couple more pics. Fortunately they are growing a lot of nice new roots.

Lost tag, but I think it's Epi. Joseph Liu




Closeup of flowers





Lycaste Dainty




It looks like there's only one low ppmer with good enough orchids to pick up the gauntlet. Where are all of you???

With the climate the madd virologist is in I think his orchids could take a lot more fert. Way better location than mine. It's right on the Gulf of Mexico where the humidity must be perfect, the sun stays up a lot longer during the winter and the temps rarely go below 32F. I'm in mid-atlantic region. For some reason we are hotter in the summer and way colder in the winter. 

I could really pump in the fertilizer if I were there. There should be one of those devil imoticons here but I don't know where they are.


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## TyroneGenade (May 29, 2015)

Rick H, your "dark green stuff" is probably Cyanobacteria. Its a poor competitor with other green things so I wouldn't worry about it.


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## SlipperKing (May 29, 2015)

TyroneGenade said:


> Rick H, your "dark green stuff" is probably Cyanobacteria. Its a poor competitor with other green things so I wouldn't worry about it.



Clearly its the only thing that can grow in our city water at 750 uSi


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## TyroneGenade (May 29, 2015)

Cyanobacteria can stand high salinity/tds but generally can't compete well with other plants/algae in a healthy system. The stuff is bubbling out of my aquarium filter but doesn't survive in the tank itself... Some cyanobacteria can fix nitrogen so they are not a terribly bad thing to have around.


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## Bjorn (Jun 1, 2015)

Come on, here are some entries from the 10ppm-club. Most taken during April or May 2015 otherwise, mentioned.
Phragmipediums 'Yelva' towering in bud



Some of my roth seedlings, pls note the New-leaf sizes



Dendrobium moschatum. These canes are 1.5m long!



coelogyne rocussenii



paphs, kolopakingii in the back, in bud approx 1m leaf-span



St. Swithin x Michael Koopowitz April 2015



Dendrobium pierardii



Slipper theatre Jan 2015



Micheal Koopowitz March 2015



Exul, March 2015



Kovachii, end of March 2015



Kovachii, same plant end of May 2015



C. labiata, mounted November 2014



C bowringiana mounted, November 2014



Some BIG Cattleya. Each flower as big as a hand. Mounted



upload gifs


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## Stone (Jun 1, 2015)

orcoholic said:


> I wonder if Stone, who waters at .8-1 too has any moss?



No...and I don't want any either! It's the best thing for killing orchid roots when it grows on the pot's surface. It just gets in the way of good air exchange and it has little value in high quality orchid cultivation IMO. It might be nice to play with but that's it. If you have moss covering the pot surface or surrounding your baskets, you WILL get rotted roots sooner rather than later. The only way it may work long term on the pot surface is if you have many holes on the side. But really, what's the point?
My orchids always grow better without moss of any kind. (except maybe Den cuthbertsonii on a treefern slab)
Moss on cork is also a disaster after a while.
We do not grow orchids on mossy trees or rocks. We grow in plastic pots which breathe from the top only.
Get rid of it!


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## Secundino (Jun 1, 2015)

Oh my, I envy that water quality! I'd like moss growing everywhere, it would mean the water is 'pure'. 
Lots of good air around the roots, that's true!


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## SlipperKing (Jun 1, 2015)

Funny Mike every plant I've ever gotten from QF,HOF out of Hawaii has had plenty of moss and they are the finest grown plants I've come across. Ask Limuhead, Fred, in Hawaii mosses are unavoidable. 
I can't recall ever loosing a plant due moss growing in association with the plant. Lost plenty due to algae, esp the slimy ones but that was due to excessive fertilzer feeding the algae rather then the orchid.


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## orcoholic (Jun 1, 2015)

Bjorn,

Your plants look really great. What's in that Norway water? I may have to reconsider my fertilizing regimen and go to .75.

Really nice looking orchids. I'm kind of astounded.


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## TyroneGenade (Jun 1, 2015)

Bjorn, how often to fertilize at 10 ppm?

Orcoholic, how often are you fertilizing?


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## orcoholic (Jun 1, 2015)

TyroneGenade said:


> Orcoholic, how often are you fertilizing?



I fertilize at every watering - which is a 2-3 times/ week in the summer and 1 or less times/week in the winter. The plants on cork are watered more often.


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## Stone (Jun 1, 2015)

SlipperKing said:


> Funny Mike every plant I've ever gotten from QF,HOF out of Hawaii has had plenty of moss and they are the finest grown plants I've come across. Ask Limuhead, Fred, in Hawaii mosses are unavoidable.
> I can't recall ever loosing a plant due moss growing in association with the plant. Lost plenty due to algae, esp the slimy ones but that was due to excessive fertilzer feeding the algae rather then the orchid.



Rick, I can only stand by my point. Generally speaking the orchids I've seen which where heavily contaminated with moss and or ferns for an extended period have weak growths due to roots slowly suffocating in a sour growing medium. It's fine and probably necessary in the habitat but it breaks down in greenhouse cultivation. Certainly there is no need or benefit from it. The paphs in the background of Bjorn first picture of the kovachii illustrates my point. Those plants are suffering. The moss should be removed and and toped with fresh clean media and they will be the better for it.
The plants from Hawaii are all grown outside where there is not only good air movement but wind. This goes a long way in keeping the medium fresh.
I think it is inevitable that you and other moss fans will eventually come to the same conclusion as me.....I hope
BTW I don't get algae either :evil:


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## Stone (Jun 2, 2015)

My turn....:rollhappy: No Paphs as I only have young ones and don't feed the same way.

Dend anosmum canes. Yes very cold today!





Maxillaria





Gomesa excavatum






C. walkeriana with 3 flowers on the spike



Dend fairchildiae with 1.5 mt canes (still growing)





Dendrochilum javieri





Dend. sulcatum





Catt trianiae





Catt. jongheana





Nanodes medusae





Dend calamiforme





Laelia anceps. (flower spikes 1.5 mt this year)





Aerides falcatum (4 new growths at the base)





Dend tetragonum





All fed at 100ppm N and 100ppm K at every second or third watering


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## Stone (Jun 2, 2015)

*Some more*

Aerides houlettiana





Phal schilleriana





Encyclia cordigera





Angraecum leonis





Dend loddigesii





Brassia verrucosa





Brassavola grandiflora





Isabelia violacea





All fed 100ppm N and 100ppm K every second or third watering.

No moss anywhere.


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## Ozpaph (Jun 2, 2015)

Nice plants Mike, but you're getting soft!


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## Bjorn (Jun 2, 2015)

orcoholic said:


> Bjorn,
> 
> Your plants look really great. What's in that Norway water? I may have to reconsider my fertilizing regimen and go to .75.
> 
> Really nice looking orchids. I'm kind of astounded.


Careful...Guess there is somthing about my water, its from a bog so may contain some humates etc as well as sulphur (you can smell it). Further, I use my own fertiliser with a lot of sulphate and more micros than common. The proportions are different too. I think that this is the reason for the apparent sucess at these low fertiliser levels. Furter, and this is probably something few people do, I have the water in a tank, add a few ppm of silicic acid as this makes the nutrients more available to the plants, heat the water to approx 20°C so that the plants never get cold water, bubble it with ozone, Dunnow if that makes a difference except turning the water odorless(makes sulphate out of the sulfide). Add fertiliser to all water in the hose by use of two Dosatrons (one for Ca, Mg nitrate, another for the rest) and the water has a pH adjusted by citric acid (in the fertiliser mix, acts as chelant for the iron and manganese there as well) to a pH of approximately 5.5-6.
Sounds complicated? right? And is but all is Automatic, so I do not have to thing, only when I test new things - well and constantly inbetweeen


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## Bjorn (Jun 2, 2015)

TyroneGenade said:


> Bjorn, how often to fertilize at 10 ppm?
> 
> Orcoholic, how often are you fertilizing?


As stated above, all water contains fertiliser.


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## Bjorn (Jun 2, 2015)

Stone said:


> The paphs in the background of Bjorn first picture of the kovachii illustrates my point. Those plants are suffering. The moss should be removed and and toped with fresh clean media and they will be the better for it.
> The plants from Hawaii are all grown outside where there is not only good air movement but wind. This goes a long way in keeping the medium fresh.
> I think it is inevitable that you and other moss fans will eventually come to the same conclusion as me.....I hope
> BTW I don't get algae either :evil:


Agree, those plants were suffering, those were the runts of a flask of helenae album and a helenae. Those smallish plants are not keen of too much moss. Just for your info, they have been potted up now and look much tidier and for that sake healthier. The pale color is partly due to being album and to having excess light
I do not like to weed moss, but I have to do it with the more diminutive species so that they do not disappear. Moss is a nuisance, but I do not think it does influence the roots much. Fertiliser kills the roots. I am not fond of repotting so I try to avoid it. I have had paphs in the same compost for more than 10 years. Eventually I started fooling around with fertiliser at 100ppm N and that killed my plants. Slowly I have moved to these very low levels, simply because more is not necessary. And it keeps my substrate healthy. I have a few plants in that same pot since 1993. That is quite god I must say. Being a coelogyne flaccida, its not supposed to take repotting very kindly so I leave it where it is and it has never been so good as it is now. But, imagine 22years in the same pot!


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## Bjorn (Jun 2, 2015)

Mike, wonderful plants! really envy you the space! Youre so right, life would have been much easier without moss and ferns, its a constant battle. But as my plants grew well but suffered from deceases (they are much healthier now) and lost their roots when I was giving them 100 ppm N I had to leave that concept. Over some years my plants have become adjusted to this lower Level of nutrients, and seem to like it. Perhaps 10ppm N is suboptimal, that may be so, but time will show. 
One thing, I water almost continously, every day or every second day, except during winter.
Btw. how cold is it in your house? You dress as if it is sub-zerooke:


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## tomkalina (Jun 2, 2015)

Impressive growing, Mike.


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## SlipperKing (Jun 2, 2015)

Mike when was the last time you were in Hawaii? Doug and Jay where there last summer and will go back this summer. The businesses mentioned and a few more where all under plastic, not outside as you are thinking. Huge, massive greenhouses and automated.


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## orcoholic (Jun 2, 2015)

Bjorn said:


> Careful...Guess there is somthing about my water, its from a bog so may contain some humates etc ..........



If I'm reading this right, you add fertilizer at the rate of 10ppmN to the bog water? plus you add CA and Mg to that.

I guess I'm curious as to what ppm or Ec your water is when it's applied to the orchids.

Regarding this discussion, I always assumed that the water started as RO or rainwater and then 10ppmN was added to that.

Could be your water, after the additives, is higher than or approaches .8eC, which I think is about 350 - 400tds.


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## orcoholic (Jun 2, 2015)

Stone,

I think you helped make it apparent that getting high is the only way to go - on the fertilizer rates that is.


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## Stone (Jun 2, 2015)

SlipperKing said:


> Mike when was the last time you were in Hawaii? Doug and Jay where there last summer and will go back this summer. The businesses mentioned and a few more where all under plastic, not outside as you are thinking. Huge, massive greenhouses and automated.



Ok. Last time I was there was '84 :sob:


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## Stone (Jun 2, 2015)

orcoholic said:


> Stone,
> 
> I think you helped make it apparent that getting high is the only way to go - on the fertilizer rates that is.



I still believe we should be discriminating. All the lowland plants and the all the strong growing orchids do very well with that type of rate and it has been proved so many times for so long you would be reinventing the wheel if you found otherwise.
The small botanicals, highland minatures etc seem to get by on half that rate or less. EC around 0.3 is fine.
Paphs - I'm still not sure about but there is probably variation in those too.
BTW, full strength hydroponic feed (MSU) has an EC commonly around 2.0dsm (recommended) so we are still feeding at more or less half rate. (usually even less)


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## Stone (Jun 2, 2015)

Bjorn said:


> > Moss is a nuisance, but I do not think it does influence the roots much
> 
> 
> .
> ...


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## Bjorn (Jun 3, 2015)

orcoholic said:


> If I'm reading this right, you add fertilizer at the rate of 10ppmN to the bog water? plus you add CA and Mg to that.
> 
> I guess I'm curious as to what ppm or Ec your water is when it's applied to the orchids.
> 
> ...


Probably it is, but the water itself contains approximately 60-80ppm of something, not Nitrate/nitrite, (tested that) according to the conductivity. The conductivity CAN be caused by humates/fulvates in the water, but it definitely contains sulphur. No Ca or Mg or alkalinity. Basically pure water that has been a bit contaminated by the bog. To this (unknown) composition I add 60ppm fertiliser (15%N). With the precipitation we have around here, it is basically rainwater that has been a bit polluted.
The bog itself is an interesting eco-system, being a sphagnum bog. More or less a thick carpet of sphagnum floating on top of an overgrown lake/pond. So the water has been naturally filtered through sphagnum/peat before being used in the greenhouse.


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## Bjorn (Jun 3, 2015)

Stone said:


> Bjorn said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...


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## cnycharles (Jun 3, 2015)

Stone said:


> Bjorn said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...


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## orcoholic (Jun 3, 2015)

Bjorn,

I think you need to be officially disqualified from low ppmer status. No one can duplicate your water, and what works for you isn't available to anyone outside The Valhalla Hood. (That is Norway, right?)

In addition, and probably most important, your orchids look good enough to disprove my point that high fertilizer rates work better than lower rates. How dare you. LOL


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## orcoholic (Jun 3, 2015)

> Most cycles allows the most chance for fertilizer input and plant up and out the door. The Dutch probably have this down really well as many plants grown fast and furious and to auction and not brought back. So, have to balance the media and everything else to allow fastest 'cycles' to allow most 'turns' or successive waves of plants through greenhouse = greatest chance of higher income. Many trade offs to manage as often the best growing media etc isn't the best for having short term plants or shipping them distance to warehouse or store, or keeping then alive once there. Good materials may be heavy and cost too much to ship. Also nitrates are chosen often for small plants on carts to stores because they can help to limit growth as tall plants take too much space on cart to store and hard to target proper sales shipping time if growing too fast and sloppy
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



This is why a lot of the "studies" don't apply to hobbyists. They are done under the study sponsors conditions to maximize profits, not healthy, long term orchid growth. Gettting the most effective "turns" is what everyone is after. It's what's the right way to do it that generates the discussions here.

BTW - shouldn't you change your name to MDCharles?


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## Bjorn (Jun 3, 2015)

Perhaps youre right; perhaps other rules govern in Valhalla?:viking::viking::fight::arrr::viking: :rollhappy::clap:


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## cnycharles (Jun 3, 2015)

orcoholic said:


> This is why a lot of the "studies" don't apply to hobbyists. They are done under the study sponsors conditions to maximize profits, not healthy, long term orchid growth. Gettting the most effective "turns" is what everyone is after. It's what's the right way to do it that generates the discussions here.
> 
> BTW - shouldn't you change your name to MDCharles?



Yes, most here likely would want to study conservatory conditions as examples for home growers. ... though understanding cycles can show how to keep your plants at peak health, without setting them back. Often an issue I would have is in summer my 2nd flr south facing apt collection would dry out too much, and the plants would get 'checked', and slow down their growth and sometimes stop. How you grow can allow your nice purchased plants to continue growing nicely and quickly, or letting things get too dry in between can slow them down or stop them. After getting checked too much, even strong fert won't make them grow quickly

Yes  I once thought about changing to nnjcharles but heather said a name can't be changed, I'd have to start over with a new name. Also I moved again from north jersey to south jersey! Too many moves and I'd have a collection of names


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## Stone (Jun 4, 2015)

Bjorn said:


> > And btw. the oxygen supply tot he roots is predominantly during watering. Heavy rains fill the voids with oxygenated water and when it disappears, fresh air is drawn into the soil/compost. Gaseous diffusion is very unlikely except for the uppermost layer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Bjorn (Jun 4, 2015)

Agree Mike, an old saying up here is something like "there are many roads to Rome" or something similar, which means there are often not only one way of doing things. There are many ways that oxygen can get into the soil and diffusion is probably one of the slowest. Contrary to Peoples belief other effects are much bigger. Water is one thing, another thing is ventilation due to temperature fluctuations. With a nocturnal decrease in temperature of approximately 10C the volume of the air in the pot is reduced by approximately 4% and such temperature swings actively pumps fresh air into the pot. Then inside the pot, the composition of that air is probably equilibrated by diffusion.
When it comes to trees and plants in extreme conditions they have several strategies. Some trees growing in swamps (cypresses?) have root coming up like "snorkels" to get oxygen, other trees like cherry trees breathe through openings in the bark. So for many trees, if you plant them deeper than they were originally (or fil soil up their stem), they will suffocate.
I am not familiar with draught, here where I live its more common to drown, in the Mountains here we have still up to 12meter snow along some roads. Can you imagine?


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## Stone (Jun 4, 2015)

Bjorn said:


> > There are many ways that oxygen can get into the soil and diffusion is probably one of the slowest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Bjorn (Jun 4, 2015)

ok, I do not hold substantiated proof for my assumptions, if the oxygen requirement is low enough then diffusion can do the trick But if you have an oxygen consuming process the supply of oxygen by diffusion will attain an asymptotic behaviour stabilising at a low level. Might be high enough, but at least in my growing other processes dominate (e.g. watering)
The example with the snow does not hold though as there are almost no oxygen consuming processes going on at those temperatures. Nature hibernates. There is no light either btw so growing conditions are poor


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## paphioboy (Jun 7, 2015)

Not a technical question but something triggered in my mind over this sentence:



> This is why a lot of the "studies" don't apply to hobbyists. They are done under the study sponsors conditions to maximize profits, not healthy, long term orchid growth.



Not to do with studies per se, but commercial growers are in the business of growing and reaping profit in as short a time as possible. But a large number of them also grow and exhibit specimen plants in shows. Do ya'll think they use the same fertilizers for their specimen plants and the plants they want to sell?


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## cnycharles (Jun 7, 2015)

oke: maybe that's why there's a known effect called the 'orchid award curse' (big growth or flowers, award, crash)
Yes they use the same. But often cultural awards go to home growers who are very meticulous with their culture. A vendor can grab whatever is at the end of the bell curve of their greenhouse population


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## orcoholic (Jun 7, 2015)

paphioboy said:


> ...commercial growers are in the business of growing and reaping profit in as short a time as possible. But a large number of them also grow and exhibit specimen plants in shows. Do ya'll think they use the same fertilizers for their specimen plants and the plants they want to sell?



I was more thinking of the studies done by commercial growers in Taiwan and companies like Floricultura, that grow millions of orchids. I'm not aware of any studies done by "large" growers. I was thinking of the studies done by the humongously large growers.

And, yes, if they've found that adult orchids for exhibit grow better with different fertilizer regimes than their clones from flask, (which I think is true), then they probably grow them differently.

I think most growers give the small, deflasked orchids less fertilizer until they grow up.


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## paphioboy (Jun 7, 2015)

cnycharles said:


> oke: maybe that's why there's a known effect called the 'orchid award curse' (big growth or flowers, award, crash)
> Yes they use the same.



I am not sure, but I don't think that applies to people who consistently grow and exhibit large, prize-winning plants like Orchid Zone, and Krull-Smith, for example.. 



> I think most growers give the small, deflasked orchids less fertilizer until they grow up.



Well, that's pretty obvious. But I don't mean just quantity. Like, do commercial growers go K-heavy on the stuff they want to sell and use something different for their specimens or stud plants to ensure long term health of the plant?


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