# Phrag schlimii 'Afton'



## paphreek (Nov 21, 2010)

I picked up a division of this from Buzz at Windsong last year. He said he thought he got it from someone in Minnesota, which makes sense, because Afton is a place name in Minnesota. One of the long time members of the OSM mentioned that he seemed to recall that a member of the club had used Afton for a cultivar name, but no one could recall who it was.


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## etex (Nov 21, 2010)

Very cute shape and pouch!!


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## Shiva (Nov 21, 2010)

Very nice!


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## goldenrose (Nov 21, 2010)

:clap::clap::smitten::smitten: way to cute!


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## likespaphs (Nov 21, 2010)

paphreek said:


> ...One of the long time members of the OSM mentioned that he seemed to recall that a member of the club had used Afton for a cultivar name, but no one could recall who it was.




looks great!
do you have aq+ or orchidwiz? i'm not sure, but perhaps you can search by cultivar name?


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## John M (Nov 21, 2010)

That is really nice! I wouldn't mind having that one in my collection!


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## paphreek (Nov 21, 2010)

likespaphs said:


> looks great!
> do you have aq+ or orchidwiz? i'm not sure, but perhaps you can search by cultivar name?



I don't think it would be in AQ because it hasn't been awarded.


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## Shiva (Nov 21, 2010)

paphreek said:


> I don't think it would be in AQ because it hasn't been awarded.



Wouldn't the cultivar name be fundamentally irrelevant if the plant has never been awarded or registered in some way? Say you got it to judging and only put schlimii on the sticker, couldn't you put the cultivar name of your choice it it got an award? Unless it can be proven that the original cultivar name was put in by the person who made the cross, it seems to me that any cultivar name would do.


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## likespaphs (Nov 21, 2010)

paphreek said:


> I don't think it would be in AQ because it hasn't been awarded.




right.
i was thinking that there may be something with the same named awarded. no guarantee but...
i'll try to take a look at aq+ when i get home later.


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## Kevin (Nov 21, 2010)

Nice one! And nice photo too!



Shiva said:


> Wouldn't the cultivar name be fundamentally irrelevant if the plant has never been awarded or registered in some way? Say you got it to judging and only put schlimii on the sticker, couldn't you put the cultivar name of your choice it it got an award? Unless it can be proven that the original cultivar name was put in by the person who made the cross, it seems to me that any cultivar name would do.



The way I understand it, you can give any plant you want any clonal name you want (if it doesn't already have one), even if it hasn't been awarded. If it does get awarded, it would make sense to keep the same clonal name, since if you have already given away divisions, it would be confusing to have the same clone with more than one name. Is that what you were asking?


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## Shiva (Nov 21, 2010)

> The way I understand it, you can give any plant you want any clonal name you want (if it doesn't already have one), even if it hasn't been awarded. If it does get awarded, it would make sense to keep the same clonal name, since if you have already given away divisions, it would be confusing to have the same clone with more than one name. Is that what you were asking?



I suspect that some sellers or even resellers use this ploy as a way to get free publicity. They simply give a plant the name of their company and wait for someone else to get an award in their name? I don't mind giving credit where credit is due. I'm just not ready to do it when it is not.


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## Leo Schordje (Nov 21, 2010)

That is a very nice Phrag schlimii.

Ross, the name you are looking for is *Dick Sonnen*. Dick lives (or lived?) near Afton, Minnesota, he was a friend of Dr. G.R. "Dick" Clements. Dick Clements passed away in 1990. I believe schlimii 'Afton' is originally a collected plant, Dick Sonnen showed the plant at AOS judging and in shows several times in the 1989 to 1995 time period, I saw it back then. It was not awarded at the time, because AOS judges were using the hybrid labelled Phrag schlimii 'Wilcox' as their standard for what a schlimii should be. Of course time has proven without a doubt that schlimii 'Wilcox' is a hybrid, most likely Cardinale, but it could be Sedenii.

Dick Sonnen also has a clone of Paph micranthum 'Afton' FCC/AOS which was awarded in 1991 at the Chicago Judging Center. 

Dick was a friend of Duane McDowel and Arnie Klehm, and if you ever had a chance to meet him, he is a genuine nice guy. I did not have much contact with him, and lost touch with him over 10 years ago. He's worth looking up if you are ever near Afton sometime.

You can see a picture of Dick Sonnen's Paph micranthum 'Afton' FCC/AOS at the IOS website, on the Awards Page dedicated to FCC's awarded at the Chicago Judging center. Here is the image from the IOS.


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## gonewild (Nov 21, 2010)

When you acquire a plant and it is labeled with a clonal name you should keep that clonal. The reason Kevin gave is the main reason. But even without being awarded there are bizillions of clones used to make hybrids. When a plant is used to make a hybrid somehow the breeder must keep track of the clones used. So the breeder might give it a clonal name or number. As the owner of the plant you can call it anything you want but changing or loosing the original clonal name can only lead to confusion later.

I doubt many growers or breeders add clonal names just to try to get free advertising if the plant gets awarded later. Probably the biggest reason a grower or seller would take time to add a clonal name to the label is if the plant has exceptional qualities or the plant is divided and suddenly there are two plant that are actually the same.

Imagine the confusion if a grower had an outstanding plant of award quality but it was never shown. Then the grower divides it and sells off 5 plants to different people. Those 5 people all take their plants to shows and get awards. They all give their plant their own clonal name. So what you would wind up with is 5 awarded plants all with different clonal names. But really there is only one clone. Then how does a breeder know that they are all the same genetically?

Best keep the name of the adopted plant as labeled or at least tell it it's family heritage so when it grows up it does not fall in love with it's self.


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## SlipperKing (Nov 21, 2010)

A little more on clonal names. Kevin has covered most of it but I would like to add an example plus some more logic. In the recent Orchids the case of rothschildianum 'Commander', 'Mont Millais' and 'Borneo' may very well be one in the same plant! So, someone wanting to buy roths with a mixed gene pool and saw seedlings for sale using the above clones may expect to pay a sizable amount for a great cross. Where as, if seedlings of selfings from the above clones where offered you may not be interested in buying or pay a much more reasonable price. In theory if these were the only clones of roth in the world to breed with (assuming they're one in the same clone) after a few generations you would have some very boring flowers. Delenatii is a real example of boring flowers before its rediscovery. 
A plant can have a clonal name before or after it is divided, it doesn't matter. It should have one after it's divided for sure. Especially if you plan on trading, giving or selling a divison off. If someone gets a divison awarded then all divisons of that plant are awarded and they will carry the same clonal name and award. No-no's It's not right to change the clonal name of an awarded plant, it's not right to take a known awarded plant in for judging under false pretenses and get a new award inturn a new clonal name. This could be what happened to the roth(s) above. It's not right to take a divison of a unawarded plant in to judging, get an award and then change the name to suit yourself. Also, if you were to get a divison awarded you need to let whoever you got the plant from know it was awarded. 
One exception to changing the clonal name of an unawarded divison for me would be,"It's the only know divison still alive" One example I have is P. chamberlainianum or victoria reginae, whichever you prefer. I got a back div. which went downhill and has taken me 10 years to get to 8 inch ls. The original plant died 8 years or so ago. I know as a fact it was only divided that one time. If I do bloom it I'll give it a new clonal name.


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## paphreek (Nov 21, 2010)

Thanks for filling in the history, Leo.


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## Shiva (Nov 21, 2010)

Thank you Kevin, Lance and Rick for your imput. I understand the situation better now.


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## Yoyo_Jo (Nov 21, 2010)

Sweet schlimii Ross! :smitten:

Great discussion about clonal names guys; I love ST for this - learning something new everyday....:clap:


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## Mathias (Nov 21, 2010)

Very nice! :clap: Schlimii is such a charming species.


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## Rick (Nov 21, 2010)

Sweet schlimii Ross, and with great history (thanks to having a clonal name and folks with good memory..Leo).

This species is notoriously hard to self. Gilda has a very floriforous clone that may be worth breeding too Ross.


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## Kevin (Nov 21, 2010)

Thanks all for those more in-depth explanations. The problem comes when trying to track down where those divisions are, if you get an award on one. Most people don't think about that. I have a plant that I divided and gave to a friend. I have no idea if he has divided his piece, but if he has then there could be 3 or more people with pieces of the same plant. If any one of us gets and award, the right thing to do would be to tell the others - but who does? Who even knows that that's what you are supposed to do? There could be many, many plants out there that are like the rothschildianum mentioned - many clonal names for the same plant. I doubt there would be any way to track that down, or even to be able to say for certain that two plants are in fact the same clone.

Back to the schlimii - if the 'benchmark' for schlimii was Cardinale in the past, this one should be taken to judging again now. I don't know if it would get anything, but it looks pretty good to me!


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## NYEric (Nov 21, 2010)

Nice schlimii. Someone needs to check what is awarded as schlimii now.


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## Yoyo_Jo (Nov 21, 2010)

This is the description in OrchidWiz of one of the most recent awards:

"*Phragmipedium schlimii 'Eichenfel's Rosa' CCE/AOS 95 Points, 2008 February 16*

*Thirty-nine attractive flowers (one fallen in transit) and 30 buds *beautifully presented on 35 inflorescences; flowers well-spaced above remarkably immaculate dark green foliage; stunning plant 110 cm wide by 90 cm high grown in a 38-cm plastic pot; sepals and petals light pink, basally blushed dark rose; pouch white heavily overlaid rose; substance average; texture matte; recognized as a significant improvement over previous 90 point CCE."


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## JeanLux (Nov 22, 2010)

Very nice schlimii Ross!!! Jean

(I have one plant from OL labelled 'Pink Snow' x 'Afton')


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## John M (Nov 22, 2010)

Joanne; can you tell us more about that awarded plant? Where was it awarded? I'm having difficulty believing that it is a pure schlimii with a height of 90cm. True schlimii is one of the smaller species. However, a well grown Phrag. Cardinale masquerading as schlimii could reach that height. Is there a photo anywhere?


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## phrag guy (Nov 22, 2010)

nice flower,Orchid limited must have a plant with same name as they use it in there Pink Panther


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## nikv (Nov 22, 2010)

Lovely! Wish I could grow one of these.


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## SlipperFan (Nov 22, 2010)

How did I miss this thread???

That's a great schlimii, Ross -- it looks perfect!


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## Yoyo_Jo (Nov 22, 2010)

John M said:


> Joanne; can you tell us more about that awarded plant? Where was it awarded? I'm having difficulty believing that it is a pure schlimii with a height of 90cm. True schlimii is one of the smaller species. However, a well grown Phrag. Cardinale masquerading as schlimii could reach that height. Is there a photo anywhere?



Northeast Center Monthly Judging, Elmsford, New York. Awarded to Phil & Ann Jesup of Bristol, Conneticut. 

That same clone had won a CCM in 2001 & a CCE in 2005.


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## Kevin (Nov 22, 2010)

Does OrchidWiz have a picture of it? That would be something to see!


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## John M (Nov 22, 2010)

Kevin said:


> Does OrchidWiz have a picture of it? That would be something to see!


 I'd love to see this one. At 90cm's tall, there's gotta be a story behind this one too!


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## Yoyo_Jo (Nov 22, 2010)

Nope, no picture in Orchidwiz.

But the 2005 award information in OrchidWiz does say that there is a picture in A.Q. Vol 36 (2005) p. 277.


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## Gilda (Nov 22, 2010)

:clap: Lovely ! Good to see one blooming..mine is sulking after a repot.


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## goldenrose (Nov 24, 2010)

Yoyo_Jo said:


> This is the description in OrchidWiz of one of the most recent awards:
> "*Phragmipedium schlimii 'Eichenfel's Rosa' CCE/AOS 95 Points, 2008 February 16*
> *Thirty-nine attractive flowers (one fallen in transit) and 30 buds *beautifully presented on 35 inflorescences; flowers well-spaced above remarkably immaculate dark green foliage; stunning plant 110 cm wide by 90 cm high grown in a 38-cm plastic pot; sepals and petals light pink, basally blushed dark rose; pouch white heavily overlaid rose; substance average; texture matte; recognized as a significant improvement over previous 90 point CCE."


I, too, would love to see that one like everyone else!
John mentioned the height & could be a Cardinale, most Cardinales I've seen haven't looked like a pure schlimi, one would hope the judges would know better. Just reading the description, this plant is award worthy no matter what it is!



Gilda said:


> :clap: Lovely ! Good to see one blooming..mine is sulking after a repot.


This is normal for schlimi? Overall is schlimi a bit more challenging to grow than other phrags? How about it's X's?


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## Rick (Nov 24, 2010)

goldenrose said:


> I, too, would love to see that one like everyone else!
> John mentioned the height & could be a Cardinale, most Cardinales I've seen haven't looked like a pure schlimi, one would hope the judges would know better.



Rose the old awarded schlimii Wilcox turned out to be a Cardinale, so at least those judges didn't know betteroke:oke:

I picked up a "schlimii" not in bloom that was huge. When it finally bloomed, it didn't look quite right compared to "typical" schlimii. Especially the overall large size and staminode coloration. It matched Wilcox (Cardinale) pics and stats more than the nominal schlimii, so I renamed it as Cardinale and gave it away. Maybe next year someone will come across a wild population of huge Cardinale like shlimii and name it var. gigantius :sob:

Since quality awards are for "improvements" to the species ( size, color, etc.) I don't think its all that hard to imagine that when judges presented with a bigger/better of anything will prefer to judge the plant as represented rather than assuming its a fraudulent hybrid right off the top. Going back through old awards records I found more than one occasion when a hybrid was awarded as a species. Probably most of these bad calls are due to poor record keeping accidents rather than outright fraud. The option is to make every award provisional pending taxonomic verification, which would probably nullify 80% of awards since improved flowers wouldn't match the type description. Maybe there should be no more quality awards for species and just have cultural awards for species. Maybe that would encourage better documentation of origion, and encourage people to grow individual clones of species better, which would include better flowers as a criteria.


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## duane mcdowell (Dec 12, 2010)

Dick Sonnen is the grower's name. He's a wonderful grower and a great guy.


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## duane mcdowell (Dec 12, 2010)

Rick said:


> Rose the old awarded schlimii Wilcox turned out to be a Cardinale, so at least those judges didn't know betteroke:oke:
> 
> I picked up a "schlimii" not in bloom that was huge. When it finally bloomed, it didn't look quite right compared to "typical" schlimii. Especially the overall large size and staminode coloration. It matched Wilcox (Cardinale) pics and stats more than the nominal schlimii, so I renamed it as Cardinale and gave it away. Maybe next year someone will come across a wild population of huge Cardinale like shlimii and name it var. gigantius :sob:
> 
> Since quality awards are for "improvements" to the species ( size, color, etc.) I don't think its all that hard to imagine that when judges presented with a bigger/better of anything will prefer to judge the plant as represented rather than assuming its a fraudulent hybrid right off the top. Going back through old awards records I found more than one occasion when a hybrid was awarded as a species. Probably most of these bad calls are due to poor record keeping accidents rather than outright fraud. The option is to make every award provisional pending taxonomic verification, which would probably nullify 80% of awards since improved flowers wouldn't match the type description. Maybe there should be no more quality awards for species and just have cultural awards for species. Maybe that would encourage better documentation of origion, and encourage people to grow individual clones of species better, which would include better flowers as a criteria.


This is a great example of how some naming has gone. Everett Wilcox had a plant labeled Phrag. schlimii. Dick Clements got a piece from him. Dick got it awarded as Phrag. schlimii 'Birchwood'. Later, Everett Wilcox got the same plant awarded as Phrag. schlimii 'Wilcox'. When Phrag. schlimii was rediscovered in Colombia, Dick realized that the plant he had was a hybrid - he found an old picture of Phrag. Cardinale and recognized that this was what Phrag. schlimii 'Birchwood' ('Wilcox') was. He showed the plant as Phrag. Cardinale 'Birchwood' and got it awarded. So the same plant was awarded 3 times under different names. (This comes from my conversations with Dick Clements in the early '90s).
I put cultivar names on good plants. If they get divided up, the name stays with the plant (hopefully). It's a good thing, if for no other reason than consistency and lack of confusion. Of course, there are common decency and respect for the person the plant came from to consider, but I digress...


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## paphreek (Dec 12, 2010)

Welcome, Duane and thank you for the excellent information. It's interesting to learn more about the history of Paph and Phrag breeding. It's also ironic that the purchase of a division in Chicago leads me back to Minnesota to another enthusiast, Dick Sonnen.


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## John M (Feb 2, 2011)

duane mcdowell said:


> This is a great example of how some naming has gone. Everett Wilcox had a plant labeled Phrag. schlimii. Dick Clements got a piece from him. Dick got it awarded as Phrag. schlimii 'Birchwood'. Later, Everett Wilcox got the same plant awarded as Phrag. schlimii 'Wilcox'. When Phrag. schlimii was rediscovered in Colombia, Dick realized that the plant he had was a hybrid - he found an old picture of Phrag. Cardinale and recognized that this was what Phrag. schlimii 'Birchwood' ('Wilcox') was. He showed the plant as Phrag. Cardinale 'Birchwood' and got it awarded. *So the same plant was awarded 3 times under different names.* (This comes from my conversations with Dick Clements in the early '90s).
> I put cultivar names on good plants. If they get divided up, the name stays with the plant (hopefully). It's a good thing, if for no other reason than consistency and lack of confusion. Of course, there are common decency and respect for the person the plant came from to consider, but I digress...



Phrag. schlimii 'Wilcox' was also renamed and exhibited as Cardinale 'Kilworth'.....and it won an AM/AOS. So, there are at least 4 different names associated with this one clone.


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