# Neo problems



## koshki (Jul 10, 2011)

With all the wonderful pictures of neos in bloom, I'm almost embarassed to ask this question, but here goes.

I have a mounted neofinitia falcata that I bought in about January 2010. It sits in small dish in my east-facing kitchen window. I water it daily.

Last year it grew like a weed, lots of roots and new fans. It sent up a single spike and bloomed last September.

I have not changed anything about its culture. In the past couple months, it has lost leaves one by one, for a total of two or three fans. But it has also sent up a couple spikes. On one spike only one of the blooms opened, the others all dried up. The other spike looked like it was going to bloom, but then they all dried up.

It's now sending up a couple more spikes. One looks pretty good to bloom and the others are still too small to tell.

I haven't changed anything, so I'm at a loss to explain this behavior. Is it healthy? Is it stressed? What should I do?


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## Erythrone (Jul 10, 2011)

Maybe you haven't change anything but is the weather the same? For exemple it was very hot and humid in Summer last year, but not this year. I grow indoor under lights but weather changes my growing conditions. 

what is the HR around your plant?

Also: do you have pictures or your plants? Maybe there is a disease or something else. Maybe mites (don't know if Neos a prone to mites, I don't have mites here).


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## Lanmark (Jul 10, 2011)

Photos would definitely be helpful if we are to have a shot at helping you. 

How do the roots look? Are they plump or shrivelled? Is there any mold present on or near the roots? Has there been any new root growth this year and if so, how much?

What is your plant mounted on?

What kind of water do you use on your plant? Is it well water, city water, collected rain water, distilled water or RO water? You're not using softened water are you?

Does your plant and its root zone become completely bone dry between waterings or does it stay damp? If it becomes dry, how long does it take for it to become dry after watering it?

Do you fertilize your plant, and if so, with what, how much and how often?

Is your morning sunshine filtered a bit with sheer curtains or slanted mini blinds from late April thru early September? Do you supplement your afternoon shade with any artificial lighting?

What are your nighttime temperatures at the plant's growing location? What is the relative humidity during the daylight hours?

Did your plant receive a somewhat cooler, dryer winter? Do you know if your Neo is an Amami-type of plant?

Are there any spider mites, mealy bugs, scale insects or tiny orchid snails present?

Do you have a cat which bites the leaves? A single cat tooth puncture can sometimes cause an entire Neo leaf to become a mottled yellow color and fall off.

Was there any unusual pigmentation present on any of the leaves or fans which died? Excessive purple or black coloration could indicate too much light or a fungal disease.

Do you live near a coal power plant, an auto painting shop or anywhere else which is excessively smoggy or fume-laden? Is your kitchen stove electric or does it use natural gas or propane? If it uses gas, how close is your plant to the stove and does it have pilot lights or does it use an electronic ignition system (makes clicking noises)?

Does your plant receive several hours of darkness at nighttime, or does it stay well-lit all night long from a nearby lamp or street light?

:rollhappy:

I can't think of anything else to ask, but these are all points to consider. :wink:


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## koshki (Jul 10, 2011)

I'll try to get some pictures and get back to you.

Wow, that is a lot of questions!


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## koshki (Jul 10, 2011)

Ok, here are a couple shots. I fertilized everything, including this today, so the roots are still wet.


Roots on the front of the mount.


In this photo I notice that there are some older roots close to the cork mount that might need to be removed. There is also a bit of tree fern fiber on the mount.


The more recent failed spike. This is the second failed spike within the last week or two.


Here you can see where the two fans died.


Roots on the back of the mount.


New spike.


Youngest new spike.


The spike that is closest to blooming. I'm worried about the yellowing of the buds.

For some reason, I can't upload the photo of the plant "in situ", which shows the plant next to the sink faucet and in east-facing kitchen window.

To answer some questions: I use city tap water (unsoftened) on all my orchids. Detroit city water is supposed to be some of the best available for orchids. When I fertilize, which is infrequently at best, I use MSU according to directions. No mold that I can see present, lots of new root growth. Mounted on cork.

I water daily, and it is dry when I next water it. I have been watering more than once a day lately, if I think of it, and to my recollection, the roots are dry.

The window has no curtains, and the plants do get a bit of direct sun for an hour or two. Artificial lights from the ceiling lights during the evening, I doubt it gets much. Lights are off at night. I don't know what type of neo it is.

Night time temps probably in the low 70s...it's indoors so there is little to no diurnal change. Don't know the RH, but it is next to the kitchen sink, so it's probably the highest of any room in the house (assuming someone does the dishes!)

No bugs or scale...I have cats, but they don't get up there, and they don't eat my plants anyway. (Good kitties.)

I just noticed a couple leaves are a bit purple...maybe it's getting to much light? No smog. I have an electric induction cooktop, several feet away.

So, some aspects of this plant look good to me, others are troubling.

Any ideas?


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## Rick (Jul 10, 2011)

It's hard to get too much light indoors without supplemental lighting placed within a couple inches of the plant.

Leaves turning purple often is deficiency of PO4 or Ca/Mg or combination of both (Ca and Mg help facilitate the uptake of phosphorus), and all the above can be symptoms of too much potassium (K) since K can block the uptake of Ca/Mg.

Lack of light can be an issue since the plant would probably pickup K under low light with no trouble.

I don't grow neos, but these symptoms are not too different from what I've seen in my indoor growing pleurothallid types.

How infrequent is "infrequent" for your fertilizing? Are you using 1/2 or 1 tsp per gal?

For my pleuros I would increase light, reduce fert (they get the equivalent of 1/4 tsp/gal every 3-4 weeks), and add a tiny touch of epsom salts.


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## koshki (Jul 10, 2011)

Thanks, Rick. Infrequent for me is next to never. I can't remember the last time I fed that plant.

The directions for my MSU liquid says 1.5 tablespoons per gallon to get 125 ppm, 2T for 200 ppm. I have some new concern about the accuracy of those directions.


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## SlipperFan (Jul 10, 2011)

Do you know what the concentration of the liquid is?


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## Lanmark (Jul 10, 2011)

I'm trying to figure out why those dead and developing spikes and buds look so stunted and sickly. Some of the leaves on the larger growths look very healthy. Why the keikis died is a mystery to me. The application of epsom salts as Rick mentioned is an excellent idea no matter what the case may be.

Your plant could be starving, but are you certain your instructions call for tablespoons or is it teaspoons? You wouldn't want to burn your plants with too much fertilizer any more than you'd want to starve them.

I'd strongly advise against removing any of the "old roots" you mentioned, at least not right now, unless they are wispy hollow husks. Sometimes old Neo roots can look like dead, fine black wire, but inside they are still green.

I'd definitely increase supplemental light during the shaded hours of the day. If your plant is located quite close to the eastern window's glass, you may or may not find you need to be careful of excessive exposure to unfiltered sunlight in late morning hours during late Spring into late Summer. Some Neos are more sensitive to excessive light than others. The bit of purple you mentioned doesn't bother me as far as light exposure is concerned. I'm wondering why that leaf near the top right corner in the first photo looks scorched, but perhaps it's just an old dying leaf. Excessive light probably isn't the problem in this case.

It could be that the chloramines in your city water supply or even the fluoride could be part of the problem.

Neos like wet/dry cycles. Be absolutely certain you aren't overwatering this plant. Prolonged periods of excessive dryness aren't good either unless it is winter and ambient temps are very cool.

Don't water in the evening or at night. Do your watering in the mornings or no later than early to mid afternoon. Consider switching to RO water. Buy granulated MSU formula rather than liquid. Fertilize using a dilute solution of fertilizer (ie 50ppm N) for most waterings (but not all) from early or mid spring to mid or late autumn. Then switch to plain water for most (but not all) waterings during the remainder of the year.


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## Hera (Jul 10, 2011)

This plant keeps trying to bloom every time it fails. It could be from the stress it's under. Sometimes sickly plants will bloom like crazy as a last ditch effort to reproduce. My opinion, for what its worth, is not enough fertilizer combined with possibly too much watering. There doesn't appear to be any pests. Try a more regular fertilizer schedule, add some Epsom salts until it greens up and allow it to be dry for a day or two between watering and see how that goes.


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## Lanmark (Jul 11, 2011)

Hera said:


> This plant keeps trying to bloom every time it fails. It could be from the stress it's under. Sometimes sickly plants will bloom like crazy as a last ditch effort to reproduce. My opinion, for what its worth, is not enough fertilizer combined with possibly too much watering. There doesn't appear to be any pests. Try a more regular fertilizer schedule, add some Epsom salts until it greens up and allow it to be dry for a day or two between watering and see how that goes.



Good advice


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## koshki (Jul 11, 2011)

Thanks everyone for your feedback and advice!

Dot, I don't know the dilution of the fertilizer, but I do believe that is the correct amount to use per gallon to get those ppm. (I've been discussing this very issue elsewhere.)

Watering daily is too much? For a mounted plant? That surprises me! 

I have always watered this in the evening. That was at the suggestion of Jim Rose from Cal Orchids, who sold me this plant. He feels that the plant retains more humidity if watered when it's cooler. I'm interested in why you think otherwise.

I hope it's not a water problem, because I can't really manage anything else. Could a water problem develop over such a long time (I've had it about 1.5 years and have always watered with tap water.)

I could increase the light this plant gets, but that would mean moving it away from the kitchen sink where it's easy to water regularly. I know, Catch-22.

I promise I will try to fertilize my orchids more regularly. I know this sounds like an excuse, but I do this all from a wheelchair, growing indoors and not a greenhouse, and fertilizing "weakly weekly" takes me about two weeks!  Seriously, I have probably somewhere around 120 orchids, about 2/3 of which are outdoors now. I fertilized every single plant, both indoors and out this past weekend, and it took me all afternoon both Saturday and Sunday! (This is why I have tried to see if timed-release fertilizers would be helpful...)

When fertilizing mounted plants, how do you recommend I do it? Soak the plant or just run the water over it? 

Also, how much Epsom salts should I use? Say in a gallon jug of water? How to apply it?

I really love this plant...it was my first mounted plant, and I have enjoyed watching it flourish in that spot in the kitchen until it took this sudden turn downward. Thanks for all your help!


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## Jorch (Jul 11, 2011)

I'm not a neo expert any by means, but from my limited experience in growing them for the past 3-4 years, here are my 2 cents:

1) NEVER water them in the evening. water gets between the leaves + cool(er) temperature is just the recipe of disasters. Neos, although mostly trouble free, are very prone to rot which I think is what is happening to your plant. They love to dry between weatering, especially in the winter. Again, if you water it in the evening every day (or every other day), you are just asking for bacterial rot. 

2) Some of the older leaves look like they are sunburnt. I would shield the window with a lace curtain or similar to cut back on the amount of direct sunlight. 

3) I read somewhere (Jason F's article?) never to fertilize neofinetias. I rarely fertlize mine.. maybe just once or twice a year during summer month at 1/4 strength. I wouldn't do Epsom Salt for Neos too.

Just my opinion


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## Lanmark (Jul 11, 2011)

Jorch said:


> I'm not a neo expert any by means, but from my limited experience in growing them for the past 3-4 years, here are my 2 cents:
> 
> 1) NEVER water them in the evening. water gets between the leaves + cool(er) temperature is just the recipe of disasters. Neos, although mostly trouble free, are very prone to rot which I think is what is happening to your plant. They love to dry between weatering, especially in the winter. Again, if you water it in the evening every day (or every other day), you are just asking for bacterial rot.
> 
> ...



I'd have to heartily agree for the most part, but fertilizing is essential as well as is the occasional application of epsom salts. Definitely use only a diluted fertilizer. 1/4 strength is indeed good, but I sincerely feel it should be applied more often during the growing season rather than just once or twice, especially for mounted plants. Plant mounts don't retain added nutrients like potted media does. The fertilizer simply gets washed away the next time the plant is watered. An occasional full strength fertilization of your mounted Neo could very well act as an occasional burning. It's better to use a 1/4 strength solution and use it more often. Don't fertilize in the winter.

The application of epsom salts to Neos works very nicely. It helps to reverse any excesses of potassium the plant may have accumulated. It only needs to be done a couple of times per year. The trick with epsom salts is to dissolve it in distilled water only with nothing else added and use it that way. You risk having the beneficial nutrients precipitate out of the solution and settle in granular form at the bottom of your jug of solution if you use tap water or add any other fertilizer in conjunction with the epsom salts. The point is to get the epsom salts completely dissolved in the water and then apply it to the plant that way for maximum absorption. I'd use a dilute solution for epsom salts on Neos. 1/4 teaspoon to a gallon.

Watering daily for a mounted plant can indeed be fatal. Not all orchids are from the cool misty cloud forests of South America. Think of Neos as cactus-wannabes. They really do enjoy some dryness between waterings. Certainly plants which are grown on mounds of moss can take the moisture, but they still must be allowed to dry out before water is reapplied. You could try watering your mounted plant by soaking it for 20 minutes (in plain water or in its fertilizer solution) and then allowing it to dry for two or three days before soaking it again. Apply only a superfine light mist of moisture on the days inbetween the soakings to help increase the relative humidity in the plant's immediate vicinity.

Water problems can indeed develop over the period of 1.5 years. High levels of sodium or other elements toxic to the plant can accumulate in the tissues until the plant finally becomes sick. I've never heard that Detroit water is good for orchids, but I live in Lansing and not Detroit so what would I know. I'd personally never use municapally treated water on my plants without first putting it through extensive filtration and reverse osmosis treatment.

I grow a great number of Neos. This is my passion. My advice: Don't water your Neos in the evenings or at night unless they are mounted and you have a buoyant, breezy atmosphere inside your home like what might be found near the top of a pine tree on a hillside in Japan. :wink:


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## Rick (Jul 11, 2011)

koshki said:


> Watering daily is too much? For a mounted plant? That surprises me!
> 
> I hope it's not a water problem, because I can't really manage anything else. Could a water problem develop over such a long time (I've had it about 1.5 years and have always watered with tap water.)
> 
> ...



I have lots of mounted plants that get watered once or twice a day (evening doesn't matter either). Granted they are in a GH or orchid box with supplemental lighting that gets into the 80's with much more airflow and humidity control than your average kitchen.

The Epsom salt addition I would do (initially) is 1/4 tsp per gal weekly dropping to "smidges" per gall (weekly) once things green up.

I have heard from the big tap water users in our society have seen marked improvement in their plants since they started removing the chlorine (usually with carbon, like the Britta filter). So don't rule out chronic chlorine exposure as a potential problem.

If you are going to fertilize then use low doses at regular intervals rather than going for the full 100 or 200ppm dose. At cool room temps under low light, the plant hardly needs anything, and I can see it picking up a bunch of potassium without incorporating anything else to get the results you are seeing. I don't have any experience with the liquid MSU to know whether or not your label is correct in the dose rate, but in my experience you need a quickly growing plant with good light and warm temps to be able to keep up with the food you would be piling on top of this plant at a 100-200ppm N dose.


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## Rick (Jul 11, 2011)

Lanmark said:


> 1/4 strength is indeed good, but I sincerely feel it should be applied more often during the growing season rather than just once or twice, especially for mounted plants. It's better to use a 1/4 strength solution and use it more often. Don't fertilize in the winter.
> 
> 
> My advice: Don't water your Neos in the evenings or at night unless they are mounted and you have a buoyant, breezy atmosphere inside your home like what might be found near the top of a pine tree on a hillside in Japan. :wink:



I think this could be a big problem to figure out in a kitchen window in a house with environmental control.

I'ts probably stuck in early/mid spring year round, with no breeze at all.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Jul 11, 2011)

Hmm, I read most of what everyone said. Some interesting ideas. I grow mine outside all the time, so I have no experience with inside growing. 

I've had little problem with loss of growths or flower spikes on mounted plants in the garden even during very cold and wet weather. Also, during the hottest months I water in early evening with no problems. I use the local water, chlorinated. In fact one of the local growers says he never uses insecticide on his plants "because the chemicals in the city water keep the bugs away mostly". As for fertilizer, I use it, when I remember, at about 1/4 strength once a week when the plants are in growth. 

One thing I can say is that once a plant develops rot, it is hard to get rid of. I have a Tamakongou that developed it some years back and I regularly give it a dose of fungicide (when I remember) and that helps, but the plant has never been quite right. The problem with rot seems tied to too wet roots, but sometimes its origins are more obscure. Generalizing about growing conditions is difficult of course. 

I would take the plant off the mount, clean it of all dead tissue, soak it in a bath of your favorite fungicide (Physan might be interesting) for a while, and repot in a clay pot (or plastic fuukiran pot) in the traditional, hollowed out mound of high quality sphagnum moss. Keep it evenly moist with slight drying between dousing and WARM, not below 75 F until autumn. Apply fungicide every few weeks. In fall dry it off a bit more, but keep humidity high. 

These plants do not like dry climates or houses with forced air conditioning. In their native homes they rarely see humidity drop below 50% and it averages closer to 70% year round.

Good luck.


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## SlipperFan (Jul 11, 2011)

koshki said:


> I have always watered this in the evening. That was at the suggestion of Jim Rose from Cal Orchids, who sold me this plant. He feels that the plant retains more humidity if watered when it's cooler. I'm interested in why you think otherwise.



He told us that, also. When I pointed out to him that sometimes the nights in Michigan's summers can dip into the 50's, he was surprised. Remember, he is from California -- a totally different climate from ours. Be careful when someone tells you to do something if they are from a different climate. What works for them won't necessarily work for us!


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## Heather (Jul 11, 2011)

I pretty much grow as Tom does. Outside year round, really quite wet and warm during summer and much drier in winter. I rarely fertilize, though I do want to try some epsom salts because my pink flowered plants are pretty red or purplish in leaf color. 

My hisui did something similar, with the leaves falling off one fan. No clue why but it eventually stopped and I changed nothing. I seem to have issues with that one though, already killed one.


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## koshki (Jul 11, 2011)

Lanmark...Great Lakes water, is to my understanding, just about the best around. Ok, this might mark me forever as an "orchid-grower wannabe", but I simply can't get into using anything but tap water. Watering my collection from a wheelchair is challenge enough. If I had a greenhouse and a hose year round, yes, definitely I'd consider a different system, but right now, if they can't take my city water, they just can't live with me. But I might be able to find a way to allow the chloramine to dissipate before watering.

I have been trying to figure out a way to add an accessible RO system in my house, and I'm not sure I can do it. Still trying, but it is not looking too likely at this point.

Dot, you're right, I had not considered the difference in climate. So now, I have to change my daily routine! But I think that's doable.

I think once this plant is finished blooming or blasting, I will take it outdoors for a summer vacation. If I can find room...darn, I wish I had a greenhouse!

Kyushucalanthe, do you think my plant has rot? I neglected to mention that the fan died off one leaf at a time from the bottom and not the crown. Other than the leaves started to turn yellow, I did not see any other problems.

I shudder to think about putting a neo in sphag...I have another that I bought in bud and it blasted (after the bud stalled for a couple months)...it is in sphag and I can't wait to get it out of there. I just don't feel comfortable keeping a plant that likes to dry out in sphag. I want to mount it as soon as I can find the right mount. I don't have a good feel for what is going on with that type of plant in sphag.

I feel like I'm arguing with you guys about all your advice, which is not my intent. I really do appeciate your suggestions! But I have parameters that limit what I can do, so I well, _clarify_, lol! ....


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## Lanmark (Jul 12, 2011)

As Dot said, different climates require different approaches.



KyushuCalanthe said:


> ...I grow mine outside all the time, so I have no experience with inside growing.
> 
> ...Also, during the hottest months I water in early evening with no problems. I use the local water, chlorinated. In fact one of the local growers says he never uses insecticide on his plants "because the chemicals in the city water keep the bugs away mostly". As for fertilizer, I use it, when I remember, at about 1/4 strength once a week when the plants are in growth.
> 
> ...



Growing your plants outdoors helps tremendously in avoiding rotting problems which can occur when watering a Neo at night indoors. The dynamic nature of the atmosphere and airflow found outdoors is completely different from an in-house setting.

Growing outdoors also helps to eliminate problems from chemicalized tap water since your plants receive plenty of fresh rain throughout the year in addition to any water you may add.

I'd have to counter your advice about keeping the hollow mound of moss evenly moist with only slight drying out between dousings. This works well in a greenhouse or outdoors, but inside a home without fans and some source of very bright artificial lighting all day long, I feel it's a recipe for disaster. I'd allow the moss to become just shy of crisp before watering it again.

These plants definitely prefer the atmosphere you describe, Tom. I grow mine quite successfully, however, in an air conditioned indoor environment in an east-facing window supplemental with bright white LED lighting. I shield my plants from excessively hot late morning sun rays during the hottest months of the year. I lightly mist my plants regularly to maintain high humidity inside the large open-topped glass enclosure, and I allow them to dry between actual waterings. I open the window on days when air conditioning isn't required, and in winter I close off the room from the rest of the house, close the heat vent, and keep the unshielded window open a crack as needed to provide cooler temperatures during this dryer yet bright period of rest. My plants grow and bloom with great vigor. :clap:




koshki said:


> Lanmark...Great Lakes water, is to my understanding, just about the best around. Ok, this might mark me forever as an "orchid-grower wannabe", but I simply can't get into using anything but tap water. Watering my collection from a wheelchair is challenge enough. If I had a greenhouse and a hose year round, yes, definitely I'd consider a different system, but right now, if they can't take my city water, they just can't live with me. But I might be able to find a way to allow the chloramine to dissipate before watering.
> 
> I have been trying to figure out a way to add an accessible RO system in my house, and I'm not sure I can do it. Still trying, but it is not looking too likely at this point.
> 
> ...



I don't feel like you're arguing, not even a little. This is how we learn. We discuss. We exchange ideas. We clarify. We share our experiences and our knowledge. Some of us have success with some types of plants and not with others. We all have differing available environments in which to grow our plants, and clearly there are many different methods and practices with which there are associated both successes and failures. I throw out a lot of ideas, some of which I hope are helpful to you. Take and use what you can and ignore the rest. Do what works for you. I don't believe in absolutes. :wink:

The quality of your water may not be a problem. I suspect it could be a contributing factor, but honestly I don't know for certain. Great Lakes water in its natural state (or boiled and cooled before use) is probably quite good for plants. Added salts, fluoride, chlorine and chloramine might cause problems in the long term. Chloramine doesn't dissipate like chlorine does. It's very hard to get rid of. I know it is highly toxic to aquarium fish, but I honestly don't know what effect, if any, it has on Neo plants. I use a countertop model of a reverse osmosis system. I purify my water a few gallons at a time. I prefilter with a sediment filter. Then the water passes through a KDF media filter, then through a granulated activated carbon filter before going through the RO membrane. Finally it passes through a final coconut-derived gac filter and into my jugs.

I think if I were you I'd first modify my watering routine, increase the frequency of low-dose fertilization, shelter the plant a little bit from the summer sun's hottest late morning rays and increase the light it receives in the afternoon. It may well benefit from spending the summer outdoors, but remember that it will need more water out there than it will take inside your house. You'll want to make sure you don't burn your plant as it acclimates to brighter conditions, and you'll need to check it over thoroughly for insect pests once you bring it back inside for winter.

Another thing you could do is try growing another type of Neo. I am assuming you have an unspecified basic species type of plant. Maybe it has poor vigor. Getting an Amami Island variety could make a big difference in vigor and warmth tolerance during the winter months.


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## SlipperFan (Jul 12, 2011)

I agree with Mark. Katherine, I don't see your comments as being argumentative. One of the great things about this forum is that we can question, dig deeper, and disagree without losing respect. Only a few have crossed "the line" and it's pretty obvious when that happens.

I don't like sphagnum as a general potting medium. Lots of people have great luck with it, but for me it is a difficult medium to work with. I do like it for mounting most things, and it's something I revert to when I need to grow roots on a rootless plant. But I try to take the plant out of sphagnum as quickly as I can. The traditional way for potting Neos is as Tom and Mark say. But I think my Neos would deteriorate quickly if I were to attempt being traditional.

As for water, is there anyone in MOS that has had problems with your water? There are many really good growers in the Detroit area, and it would be interesting to know what water they use.


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## koshki (Jul 12, 2011)

Thanks, guys...I guess too much therapy can make a person sensitive to the "Yes, but.." answer, lol!



SlipperFan said:


> As for water, is there anyone in MOS that has had problems with your water? There are many really good growers in the Detroit area, and it would be interesting to know what water they use.



No, Dot, I have not heard of anyone having any particular problems with our water here, although I can't remember discussing it with anyone. I will see if I can float an email question and find out. And although I'm willing to change my schedule of watering, I honestly don't think it's a problem due to watering in the evening. It just doesn't look like crown rot to me.

My guess is that it is probably my fault because I'm so delinquent about fertilizing. I'm almost afraid to report that the one spike is progressing nicely, and looks like it will bloom. :clap: (Shhhhh, I'm afraid I've jinxed it!)

Oh, and anyone have advice about how to fertilize the mount? Dunk, soak, splash, other? And what concentration for the Epsom salts?


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## SlipperFan (Jul 12, 2011)

It doesn't have to be crown rot to be rot. From my experience, Neos, Tolumnias, Phrags and Paphs like to rot at the soil line and progress from there. I'd really be cautions about watering in the evening, expecially plants that like to dry out between waterings.

Personally, I think less fertilizer is better than too much. (Did I really just say that???)

I don't know the "proper" concentration of Epsom Salts, but I use 1 t. per gallon once a month. I read somewhere that you shouldn't mix it with fertilizer because there is a contraindication with one of the essential fertilizer ingredients -- I forget which one -- which renders it's use void.


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## Rick (Jul 12, 2011)

SlipperFan said:


> I don't know the "proper" concentration of Epsom Salts, but I use 1 t. per gallon once a month. I read somewhere that you shouldn't mix it with fertilizer because there is a contraindication with one of the essential fertilizer ingredients -- I forget which one -- which renders it's use void.



I've add Epsom to my MSU fert to almost every batch I've made for the last year, and things are getting better all the time.

All the major elements are interconnected physiologically in the plant but Ca, K, and Mg all end up potentially counteracting each other. But K is the most readily sucked up nutrient and generally in highest supply in MSU fert. Once it builds up in a plant, it blocks both Ca and Mg, which in turn reduce the plants ability to move PO4 into the cells. This is actually not a problem specific to orchids, but all plants.

I forwarded a paper on to Heather to see if there is a way to post it (its a 20kb pdf document, on the role of K, Ca, and Mg on preventing or promoting Erwinia rots and other disease in crop plants. I also have another paper on the direct antagonistic effects of K on uptake of Ca and Mg (in rice plants). Once tissue K gets to be higher than Ca, plants are much more susceptible to disease. Sure you can grow them like crazy (for a while) but they have to be babied to keep rots from taking hold. Kind of like feeding cows corn instead of grass, they grow fast, have tasty fatty meat, but their internal environment is so off, that they need to be on antibiotics to keep from getting sick before slaughter. But cows are only fed corn short term in feed lots specifically for short term gain and maximum profit. No one keeps a cow on corn year after year, because it wouldn't survive without major veterinary intervention.

Most fertilizers are made for single growing season, ground to harvest crops. As long as the temps are up and sun is good, you get plants to harvest in record time. But if you check out the nutrition management of perennial crops like fruits or coffee, fertilizing is much reduced (per biomass of plant)and much more seasonally targeted for application.

I've also noticed that some of the more successful long term orchid growers literally do NO fertilization during the winter months. At this time if they are watering with local mains water with normal levels of Ca and Mg in it, then they are helping get the excess summer K out of the plants and potting mix. Adding oyster shell, lime, limestone, bonemeal to the potting mix will also provide at least a Calcium source to help move out excess K.

Any way there are a lot of ways to skin the cat as they say, and in many cases growers are already doing these things and don't even know it.


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## SlipperFan (Jul 12, 2011)

I'll be interested to read the pdf -- anything that can help me understand will be helpful!

Thanks, Rick.


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## cnycharles (Jul 13, 2011)

winter fertilizing might be okay in cool areas if they were using calcium nitrate fertilizer. I have a variegated neo that is in a small clay pot that has sphagnum in it, and when I remember to water in summer it seems to like it quite a bit; also seems to like it in winter. I have a purple neo that is from troy meyers that seems happy under lights mounted on cork with a little sphagnum around the roots and near the end of the fluorescent light fixture, and it seems pretty happy even though it dries out quite a bit. I would also echo that watering before nightfall is a bad idea indoors unless you have tons of wind to dry things off. how this can hurt if you don't have warm breezy environment is that a plant that likes it a bit warm, will have water that will cool and evaporate the base of the plant and it will stay like that all night. my phals that like warm resented having s/h culture in winter when it was quite cool in my apartment and growing area because the night evaporation cooled them a bit too much. if you could get a mounted plant to have very long roots, you could water the root ends heavily before night and not worry about basal disease from excessive cooling, i'll bet something like this happens in nature when a tree-bound plant gets a bunch of rain or moisture and the root ends are in tree bark or branch crevices that stay wet when the base of the plant is drying off


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## koshki (Jul 13, 2011)

Thanks everyone for your input. I just looked at the neo in question, and some blooms opened today! I'll try to get a couple photos to share.

Dot, what do you pot your neos in? Or are they mounted?

Rick, I'll admit I had to read your post a couple times to make sure I was following...thank you for that! What is your recommendation for the amount of Epsom salts per gallon?

Mark and everyone else..I've switched my watering routine to earlier in the day. Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration...I skipped an evening or two, lol! It will take some time to get my new routine ingrained.

Still waiting on advice on the best way to fertilize mounted 'chids! (Sorry to keep pestering about this, but I keep thinking about how the fertilized water will hang around in a pot, but runs right off the mounted orchids, and well, my brain can sometimes get stuck on such questions....!)


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## cnycharles (Jul 13, 2011)

how many mounted plants do you have? if it's just a few that you are worried that don't get enough fertilizer, you could just get a plastic container a little bigger than the mount, or large enough so that most of the roots but not much of the plant is under water. just use that container for that plant (neo). other answer is to spray the heck out of the plants that are mounted, maybe do it twice so that you are sure that all is wet, a little while apart. If you are very sure that your plants have no bugs or disease, you could dunk them. I know that many advocate not doing this for very good reasons, but we had an excellent grower in our society who had many restrepias, and other types plus dendrobium that liked to be mounted and high light and he had many in a lighted enclosure and dunked most of them for about ten minutes or so and had excellent results. (some restrepias were mounted, others in tiny pots)... mind you, he watched everything carefully and if it had some bugs or disease he kept it away from the other plants until it was clean; same thing with new plants. he also had excellent humidity and air movement so his incidence of disease was usually for plants that came into his posession with potting media that he hadn't changed yet, that wasn't ideal for his conditions. if you aren't attentive or don't like to keep track of bugs or disease then dunking probably isn't a good option because it'll spread them. but, mounted plants usually under lights often like being dunked


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## SlipperFan (Jul 13, 2011)

koshki said:


> Dot, what do you pot your neos in? Or are they mounted?


They are all in clay pots. Some are in straight diatomite and some are in coconut fiber -- the stringy stuff. They seem to be doing OK in either one.



koshki said:


> Still waiting on advice on the best way to fertilize mounted 'chids! (Sorry to keep pestering about this, but I keep thinking about how the fertilized water will hang around in a pot, but runs right off the mounted orchids, and well, my brain can sometimes get stuck on such questions....!)


I'm probably not growing anything optimally, but I pretty much fertilize the mounted plants when I fertilize everything else. It will be interesting to read if other people have different schedules.


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## Rick (Jul 14, 2011)

koshki said:


> What is your recommendation for the amount of Epsom salts per gallon?
> 
> 
> Still waiting on advice on the best way to fertilize mounted 'chids!



Unfortunately my answer on Epsom salt use is not simple. The highest rate I've used is about a tsp/gal, but only during a warm sunny summer day. The most I've used during the winter is 1/4 tsp/gal. These bigger doses are pretty spread out.

About a third of my collection is mounted or in baskets. I water every day. My regular irrigation water is a 10:1 mix of RO water and my hard well water. The final hardness is about 20ppm (as CaCO3) which is very soft. On just about any sunny day I add about 1/16 to 1/8tsp/gal of Epsom salts. I fertilize weekly at 1/4 - 1/2 tsp of MSU dry, pure water mix. However instead of using it in RO water, I'm now using it in my 10:1 soft water and adding about 1/16 to 1/8tsp/gal more Epsom salts.

It all goes in the pump sprayer, and just spray them down. Leaves, roots, the works. Often on fertilizer day, I spray down a mounted plant go water something else, and then hit the mounted plant again. As you've noted the water just runs off the mounted plants so not much is retained per shot.


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## Lanmark (Jul 14, 2011)

I'd recommend soaking your mounted Neo plant for about 10 - 15 minutes. It won't hurt to completely immerse both roots and leaves in the fertilizer solution (or water if I you're just watering it). I recommend discarding the leftover solution afterward. Use fresh solution each time. I'd recommend only very light mistings after that for a couple of days. Then soak it again. As cnycharles noted, however, you must be absolutely certain that all plants sharing the solution for dunking have zero diseases and zero pests lest you spread trouble from one plant to all of your plants. You may increase or decrease the frequency of your soaks depending on how the plant responds.

Another way to ensure your mounted plant gets enough fertilizer is to thoroughly drench it by pouring the fertilizer solution over it and allowing the excess to drain away. Follow up about an hour later with a misting of the fertilizer solution. As I mentioned before, I prefer to use a dilute solution of fertilizer and apply it more frequently rather than use a stronger solution less often. I don't fertilize in winter.

As for the epsom salts, some people (myself included) use 1/4 tsp per gallon. Some people use 1 teaspoon per gallon.

I hope your plant comes back to good health for you soon! Why not start watering it mid-morning? 

I can tell you from my own personal experience, it takes a lot longer to kill a Neo from too little moisture than it does to kill it from too much moisture.


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## Lanmark (Jul 14, 2011)

I think Rick has good advice about the water, fertilizer and epsom salts which he uses.


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## koshki (Jul 14, 2011)

Thanks for the great advice everyone!

While driving today I was thinking about my puzzlement concerning fertilizing mounted orchids and then it hit me...spray bottle! Duh!

Which (of course) leads me to another question...can the mixed up fertilizer "go bad" over time? I was thinking I could keep a spray bottle ready to go for weekly fertilizing. For me, simpler (read: easy) is more likely to lead to consistent.


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## SlipperFan (Jul 14, 2011)

Should not be a problem!


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## goldenrose (Jul 17, 2011)

koshki said:


> Oh, and anyone have advice about how to fertilize the mount? Dunk, soak, splash, other?





koshki said:


> Still waiting on advice on the best way to fertilize mounted 'chids! (Sorry to keep pestering about this, but I keep thinking about how the fertilized water will hang around in a pot, but runs right off the mounted orchids, and well, my brain can sometimes get stuck on such questions....!)



I have 2 barrels of rainwater in my GH. One has fertilizer mixed in it, the other is just plain straight. All of my mounts get put in the barrel, daily in the summer, for about 15 minutes. I'll do a few days in a row of fert than a day of pure, have had no problems, infact seem to do better with the soaking, just spraying them just isn't enough.


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