# Which roths to choose?



## Ayreon (May 24, 2009)

I'm thinking of buying two of these. Which ones would you choose?

Mont Millais x Rex
Mont Millais x Val
Borneo Dark x Dark Chocolate


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## nikv (May 24, 2009)

If you plan to buy two out of three, I would definitely get the third one and decide between the two Mont Millais crosses. I'm not familiar with Val. Is it a newer awarded clone? I might be tempted to go with it. Of course, if you can see the actual plants before making the purchase, I would pick the two healthiest ones available.


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## Ayreon (May 24, 2009)

I have seen the plants and they all look good. 
Yes, I am probably getting the third one.

The MM x Rex is a well known one but the MM x Val plant looks a bit bigger in the pic I have seen.


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## Ayreon (May 24, 2009)

I went for the Borneo and the Val. Case closed!


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## Paphman910 (May 24, 2009)

Good Choice

Paphman910


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## John M (May 24, 2009)

Ayreon said:


> I went for the Borneo and the Val. Case closed!


 That would've been my choice too!:clap:


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## nikv (May 24, 2009)

I did a Google search and discovered that Val has an FCC/AOS award.


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## emydura (May 24, 2009)

They both should be very nice.

Val is from Charles E x Borneo.

David


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## paphreek (May 24, 2009)

I'm a little late for the decision, but the MM x Val might be an interesting cross. The AOS award picture of 'Val' shows a very dark flower with thick, dark stripes and a dark pouch while the 'MM' is a stockier flower with a larger dorsal. I would have made that pick, also.


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## JDY (May 24, 2009)

I think you made the right choice.


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## slipperscout (May 24, 2009)

Good question! Val is named after Valerie Tonkin. Approximately 40 years ago Val and and her husband, Jack, were pioneers in the line breeding of roths in this country. At that time Terry Root was just getting the OZ up and going. If you review "Val" in the AQ awards file, you will find that the intense pigmentation of modern roth breeding dates back to this clone. The Japanese roth breeders combined Val with Mont Milas to get the great color, form, size and presentation characteristic of the best of current roth breeding. Sam Tsui likes the Rex X MM blood line; however, if you check his roth seedling list at the Orchid Inn you will see a number of Val X MM grexes that Sam will combine with his breeding. Borneo Dark X Dark Chocolate (check out Bloomfield for the best prices, Orchids Ltd if you want to spend a lot of money!) The Borneo pix at Orchids Ltd appears small. Good color, maybe, small size (NS less than 30 CM)-likely?
Sam ain't cheap, but he has several very desiraeable Val X MM crosses from Japan. Right now,I would not spend my money elsewhere, unless to buy a selected flowering clone. Good lucK!!


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## Ayreon (May 25, 2009)

Thank you fall all information!


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## Carol (May 25, 2009)

*Paph roth*

I noticed that the Paph rothschildianum('Sam's Best' FCC/AOS x 'Rex' FCC/AOS) that I purchased from Sam Tsui 2 1/2 years ago is in spike. How long is the wait now?


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## goldenrose (May 25, 2009)

I don't think you could miss with any of them, one would think they should be rather similar. Info I have gathered indicates Dark Chocolate & Borneo Dark are sibs that have Rex/MM/Commander in the background.


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## labskaus (May 25, 2009)

The Dark Chocolate/Borneo Dark is a recent (Orchids Ltd?) cross, the others were made in the mid/early nineties. I've seen the pics as well, the plants offered are all healthy, one growth, not quite blooming size plants. I would inquire if these plants were still from the original crosses. If yes, they're certainly not among the fastest.


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## Ayreon (May 25, 2009)

Fast? Roths shouldn't be fast. I want a long hard struggle god damnit! And when I'm old and tired and I finally get my first roth to bloom I will celebrate with a special bottle of wine that I have in my cellar. I already have a tag on it that says "DO NOT OPEN UNTIL ROTH".


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## paphioland (May 25, 2009)

This is an easy one

Rex x mm
val x mm

The other cross is unproven and the parents are small. The two aforementioned crosses are the standard for top roths at the moment. I would maybe add nanchou x mm. It is unlikely that the third cross will be able to match the top two-three crosses in roth breeding. I think out of all rex x mm is the best cross. Produces the most consistent great quality clones. While not as dark as the Val cross it has better shape and size on average. If I had to buy a roth I would buy one of the newer crosses using spectacular parents. The third cross did not have spectacular parents. On the other hand why not just buy all three. If you are looking purely for trying to get lucky with great quality stick with the mm crosses it is the best roth breeder to date.


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## Paphman910 (May 25, 2009)

Ayreon said:


> Fast? Roths shouldn't be fast. I want a long hard struggle god damnit! And when I'm old and tired and I finally get my first roth to bloom I will celebrate with a special bottle of wine that I have in my cellar. I already have a tag on it that says "DO NOT OPEN UNTIL ROTH".



The roth crosses with 'Rex' tend to grow faster and easier flowering. 

Paphman910


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## Roth (May 25, 2009)

Those crosses are a little bit phony, I am nearly sure they are not at all Rex x MM and Val x MM... There are several photos of the plants on ebay.de that I have seen, and they looks like some unnamed crosses with a nice tag to sell more expensive.

Borneo Dark x Dark Chocolate would be much safer to buy, at least it would have the proper parents.


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## Wendy (May 25, 2009)

Carol said:


> I noticed that the Paph rothschildianum('Sam's Best' FCC/AOS x 'Rex' FCC/AOS) that I purchased from Sam Tsui 2 1/2 years ago is in spike. How long is the wait now?



Not long Carol. Once you notice the spike it usually develops quickly. I look forward to your pictures!


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## Fabrice (May 26, 2009)

Look at my Val X Mont Millais. It's just a "correct" roth but when I bought it, I thought to have best flowers. Of course not as "Perfection" for example but better than that!
The shape is not very good, the flower not very colored and the size is small (22cms)
So, is it really this cross...???







To be sure, if I bought a roth now, I'll buy Borneo Dark x Dark Chocolate (I have also this cross!)


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## Paul (May 26, 2009)

I suggest you to send me this plant, maybe the flowers will become bigger and better in my growing area ...


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## Hien (May 26, 2009)

Sanderianum said:


> Those crosses are a little bit phony, I am nearly sure they are not at all Rex x MM and Val x MM... There are several photos of the plants on ebay.de that I have seen, and they looks like some unnamed crosses with a nice tag to sell more expensive.
> 
> Borneo Dark x Dark Chocolate would be much safer to buy, at least it would have the proper parents.



There was one division comes up on ebay, I am surprised that it went with one bidder. Does it make sense?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350202939272&_trkparms=tab=Watching


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## paphioland (May 26, 2009)

Borneo Dark x Dark Chocolate

Everyone is saying this cross. Show me one great example from this cross or post the dimensions of the parents.

I do agree that is improbable that a rex x mm hasn't bloomed yet but it is definitely possible to find a real one.


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## Roth (May 26, 2009)

Look at that:

http://cgi.ebay.de/Paphiopedilum-rothschildianum-Mont-Millais-x-Rex-1_W0QQitemZ270395508627

At that size, and the many plants offered of Rex x MM and Val x MM. all in the same european pots and the same size, it is definitely not Rex x MM... Plus no one in Europe has those 3 parents to remake thoses crosses.

The same seller is offering 
http://cgi.ebay.de/Phragmipedium-besseae-Big-Bob-x-Colossal-1_W0QQitemZ270395856121

Which it is definitely not... So for the MM crosses it is even more doubtful...

Favrice, yours is definitely typical of a roth from unknown parentage sold as Val x MM... I know there is a big joke behind all thoses selected parents seedlings, many are not what they are supposed to be, including from famous growers. Time will tell. 

As for me I just bloomed some Arthit x Butterfly roths, from Arthit nursery, and they are definitely seedlings made with crappy parents. The clonal names help to sell more expensive thats all. The same apply with all thoses DouFong, Big Garden, Fly Eagle, Green Valley blabla plants from Taiwan, they all come from a couple of crosses with unknown parents. Though there are some really excellent ones in thoses plants, but it is a matter of luck.

Thats why I think Borneo Dark x DArk Chocolate will give the best flowers of the 3 crosses OFFERED, because at least there are little chances that someone used thoses clonal name to cheat the people. The MM crosses being fake, they can be anything from Charles E x Borneo low quality selfings to simply jungle capsules, or selfingd of a roth that happened to bloom somewhere...

Another thing, I am nearly sure I have seen the same roths plants offered as MM crosses somewhere, but very cheap - 6 euros, and without clonal name... I cannot guarantee 100 percent, but it is most likely...

The Green Vally division on ebay is obviously not that plant, maybe a sibling...


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## Drorchid (May 27, 2009)

I am actually the one that made the 'Borneo Dark' x 'Dark Chocolate' cross. At the time when I made the cross, they were some of the best roths we had in our collection. Those 2 clones had the darkest flowers of all the clones we had at the time, and that is why I sibbed them together. I agree with Paphioland, that they are probably not as large and well shaped as clones from Val x Mont Millais and Rex x Mont Millais that I have seen, but I actually was surprised in the quality of the first seedlings to bloom from the 'Borneo Dark' x 'Dark Chocolate' cross. They were actually an improvement over either parent. One of the clones ('Black Licorice') had a natural spread of 28 cm, which is not the best, but is better than average. They definitely are very dark in color. 

Here are some pics of some of the first seedlings to bloom of 'Borneo Dark' x 'Dark Chocolate':

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11648&highlight=Borneo+Dark

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11917&highlight=Borneo+Dark

We also have some plants from the 'Green Valley' x 'Fly Eagle' cross. They have some of the largest and well shaped flowers I have seen (even better than some of the Rex x MM clones). One bad characteristic of that cross that I have noticed, is that they have all been very susceptible to rot; we lost almost half of the plants we had.

Here is a picture of one of the clones from 'Green Valley' x 'Fly Eagle':

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11915&highlight=Borneo+Dark

The 'Borneo Dark' x 'Dark Chocolate' plants are much stronger and less susceptible to rot. Also they have been very vigorous and the first seedlings bloomed after only 3 to 4 years after coming out of the flask.

So my suggestion would be, if you want good sized flowers to get the Rex x Mount Millais or the Val x MM cross, but if you want dark flowers on a vigorous plant that probably will bloom fast to get the Borne Dark x Dark Chocolate cross. Also the last one is a cross that one of our slippertalk members made (aka me...), so at least you know what you are getting.

Robert


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## Fabrice (May 27, 2009)

Thanks Robert.

Certainly, you know very good the "World of orchids". Do you have an advice about the Rex X MM and Val X MM? 
Do you think the crosses to sell at this time are really Rex X MM or Val X MM or do you tend to agree with Sanderianum?


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## Ayreon (May 27, 2009)

Haha, great Robert! Thanks for thi information. As I wrote before I have already ordered the Borneo cross and the MM x Val (or whatever it is). I'm not an experienced Roth grower, so I think I will be pleased with just any roth I manage to get into bloom.  I have two unnamed ones as well.


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## Drorchid (May 27, 2009)

Fabrice said:


> Thanks Robert.
> 
> Certainly, you know very good the "World of orchids". Do you have an advice about the Rex X MM and Val X MM?
> Do you think the crosses to sell at this time are really Rex X MM or Val X MM or do you tend to agree with Sanderianum?



I would say it depends on where you get them from. If you buy them on ebay from an unknown seller, who knows what they really are, they may give them fake parent names, just so they can get a higher price, but if you get them from a reliable Paph grower, like Frank Smith, Sam Tsui, aka the Orchid Inn (or us, aka Orchids Limited) you know that the parentage is correct.

If you want a really good clone, it is always best to buy it when it is in bloom, so have the nursery you buy it from send you pictures of their clones in flower that they are selling. At least you know what you will be getting then. Unfortunately if they are really good, you may end up paying a high price. If you get an unbloomed seedling they are usually a lot cheaper.

Robert


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## Drorchid (May 27, 2009)

Ayreon said:


> Haha, great Robert! Thanks for thi information. As I wrote before I have already ordered the Borneo cross and the MM x Val (or whatever it is). I'm not an experienced Roth grower, so I think I will be pleased with just any roth I manage to get into bloom.  I have two unnamed ones as well.



Are they all the same size? Let us know which one blooms first.

Robert


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## goldenrose (May 27, 2009)

:clap: That's the attitude Aryeon! :clap:
I've been reading this thread & withholding from comment. I know their are dishonest people out there but even OZ has times were plants don't bloom their best! Is every sib from a well known producing cross outstanding? I doubt it! I'd love to have a show quality/awarded/awardable plant, wouldn't most of us? If that's what you were expecting when buying a certain cross, then I can understand the disappointment but is it fair to automatically assume that the seller screwed you?


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## Fabrice (May 27, 2009)

Yes, you're right. 

But Sanderianum tell us that's it's IMPOSSIBLE to have currently crosses Rex X MM and Val X MM. So, it's logic to have questions...


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## rdlsreno (May 27, 2009)

Ayreon said:


> Haha, great Robert! Thanks for thi information. As I wrote before I have already ordered the Borneo cross and the MM x Val (or whatever it is). I'm not an experienced Roth grower, so I think I will be pleased with just any roth I manage to get into bloom.  I have two unnamed ones as well.



Good Choice!!!


Ramon


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## Drorchid (May 27, 2009)

Fabrice said:


> Yes, you're right.
> 
> But Sanderianum tell us that's it's IMPOSSIBLE to have currently crosses Rex X MM and Val X MM. So, it's logic to have questions...



I don't know about the Val. x MM, but we still have some Rex x MM plants, so I don't think it is impossible to be selling those plants.

Robert


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## emydura (May 27, 2009)

Thanks Robert. The 'Borneo Dark' x 'Dark Chocolate' sure looks nice to me. For me colour is much more important than size. And plant vigour is also important. The 'Borneo Dark' x 'Dark Chocolate' cross seems the one for me. I've just got to find one in Australia.

David


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## Ayreon (May 27, 2009)

Drorchid said:


> Are they all the same size? Let us know which one blooms first.
> 
> Robert




The MMxVal is bigger so it will probably bloom first.

I asked the seller about the origins of the plants and he says the MM crosses are from a friend who brought flasks from Taiwan some years ago.


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## Fabrice (May 27, 2009)

Drorchid said:


> we still have some Rex x MM plants, Robert



OOOOoooohhh!!! Interesting!!! How much for the next show in Europe???!!!:rollhappy:

(I think my BD X DC will bloom next year; It's right that's a vigourous plant and mine is compact)


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## Roth (May 31, 2009)

Drorchid said:


> I don't know about the Val. x MM, but we still have some Rex x MM plants, so I don't think it is impossible to be selling those plants.
> 
> Robert



The plants on ebay are obviously 2 years approx from flask, that's why I am sure it is impossible for someone to sell thoses Rex x MM and Val x MM... And if they come from Taiwan, I know for sure that they do not sell any Rex x MM or Val x MM now. If they had such crosses, they would still sell it. At the best it is Rex x MM or Val x MM selfings or siblings, at the worst, it is the Taiwanese style, and the parents are put according to the seller's wishes...

Speaking of Rex x MM, I have a big doubt that even the source of that cross sometimes messed up a little bit with the parentage... First there were 2 types of plants sold under that parentage, obviously different leaves, and very different flower quality... second the source had many others roths crosses that disappeared instantly from their offer, like Rex x Mt Kinabalu :evil: to be replaced by Rex x MM only...

And Robert, your Green Valley x Fly Eagle has a small problem, when I ordered first from Taiwan GV x FE and Fly Eagle x Big Garden, they explicitely told me that the FE x BG has wide leaves, the GV x FE narrow leaves... but from my experience in blooming thoses, the plants you showed a picture of looks exactly like most of my FE x BG, the GV x FE were really ugly... But now, if you order FE x BG you flower a crap that looks like a Charles E x Borneo cross... Go figure...

About 75 per cent of the plants I got from Taiwan of roths from thoses crosses were contaminated in the rhizome or a couple of roots by Pythium by the way... Either they would slowly be stunted and die, or collapse after blooming, or sometimes get a faster basal rot.

Sam Tsui is buying and reselling a lot of crosses, so his reliability depends on hus suppliers. Once the Tokyo Orchid Nursery sold to him fake Val x MM, they turned out to be t Swithin, and I was one of the lucky owner. He did good on that, but I think it is possible to trust any supplier only if they have the parents themselves, really and honestly, or if the plants can be traced back to the real source... Sam has been cheated on some instances, even with the Rex x MM...


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## Hien (May 31, 2009)

Sanderianum said:


> The plants on ebay are obviously 2 years approx from flask, that's why I am sure it is impossible for someone to sell thoses Rex x MM and Val x MM... And if they come from Taiwan, I know for sure that they do not sell any Rex x MM or Val x MM now. If they had such crosses, they would still sell it. At the best it is Rex x MM or Val x MM selfings or siblings, at the worst, it is the Taiwanese style, and the parents are put according to the seller's wishes...
> 
> Speaking of Rex x MM, I have a big doubt that even the source of that cross sometimes messed up a little bit with the parentage... First there were 2 types of plants sold under that parentage, obviously different leaves, and very different flower quality... second the source had many others roths crosses that disappeared instantly from their offer, like Rex x Mt Kinabalu :evil: to be replaced by Rex x MM only...
> 
> ...


 Perhaps the solution is that everyone will start from scratch (forget about those lineages).
Pick out the best plants (regardless of the prestigious or non prestigious parents' name sake) name those clones, and start again from there.


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## Kevin (May 31, 2009)

Hien said:


> Perhaps the solution is that everyone will start from scratch (forget about those lineages).
> Pick out the best plants (regardless of the prestigious or non prestigious parents' name sake) name those clones, and start again from there.



Or, maybe people can just be honest!!!

Just wondering why some plants can be 'impossible' to be found in a certain part of the world. With the right paperwork, can't anything be exported and imported anywhere?


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## dan_t (Jun 3, 2009)

Hey everyone!

Just thought I'd say that I recently got a flask of a sib cross from Sam Tsui from Jim Krull (Rex x MM) x Canadian Club (Val x MM). I'm really looking forward to seeing how these turn out!

Dan


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## SlipperKing (Jun 3, 2009)

Cool Dan, Sam Tsui is coming to Houston Thur night for our meeting and he has a flask of randsii for me. You folks will probably see your end results of your roths well before me!


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