# Kocide instead of Phyton?



## richgarrison (Jun 23, 2020)

Anybody using Kocide in their maintenance programs instead of phyton? 

Just wondering if anyone can wax rhapsodic about their practical experience with both, or just with Kocide?


----------



## Ray (Jun 23, 2020)

I would never use a pesticide as part of routine maintenance. Only as a curative. If used when unneeded, they may physiologically weaken plants, not to mention inadvertently help breed resistant "super pests".

Phyton contains copper sulfate pentahydrate
Kocide contains copper hydroxide
The Southern Ag product is copper diammonium diacetate

Apparently copper is copper, but do keep in mind that copper can also be used as a herbicide.


----------



## DrLeslieEe (Jun 29, 2020)

Ray, is phyton 27 considered systemic?


----------



## Ray (Jun 29, 2020)

DrLeslieEe said:


> Ray, is phyton 27 considered systemic?


Yes, the copper is absorbed and spread throughout the plant. From the Phytoncorp website:

" _Phyton 27 is a broad-spectrum, systemic bactericide + fungicide that has proven effective against many pathogens, including Botrytis (gray mold), bacterial leaf spot, powdery mildew, and more. Its patented formula enables its active ingredient to be absorbed into the plant’s vascular tissue where it can move up, down and across the plant, killing pathogens that have attacked the internal plant tissues. With a residual of up to 21 days..._"


----------



## Ray (Jun 29, 2020)

If I may sidetrack this a bit. I have always heard warnings that copper compounds should not be used on dendrobiums, plants with thin leaves, or blooming plants. Does anyone know of real-life examples of copper toxicity in orchids? I am aware of its use to kill weeds and algae in ponds, where copper sulfate is mixed with fertilizer and spread around, but not being a grower of dendrobiums, nor a frequent user of copper on my collection (once or twice in over 45 years), I can't authoritatively says any of it is true or false.


----------



## Ozpaph (Jun 30, 2020)

I use copper occassionally. I have kept it off dendrobes as per the 'heresay'. I did spray a renanthera seedling and it died but who knows. It doesnt harm paphs at recommended concentrations. You should note that 'copper' isnt copper. Apparently particle size is very important for effectiveness. The finer the better.


----------



## DrLeslieEe (Jun 30, 2020)

I have used phyton 27 on all plants in my collections including the cuthsbertsoniis, kingianum hybrids, dendrobium species with no issues. I do use a lower dose and wash blooms after (sometimes they damage softer cattleya blooms). 

I have not tried other brands so I can't speak for them.


----------



## Stone (Jun 30, 2020)

I read an interesting article in an AU orchid mag where a chemist did experiments on reducing the toxicity of copper sprays by mixing it with lime. If I remember correctly ,he also did trial with dendrobium and found no toxicity problems when used this way. He advised not to let it drip onto the p/mix particularly if it was acidic. He said it was still one of the most potent anti-fungals to be had. I now mix copper (oxychloride in this case) with calcium hydroxide into a paste before diluting then use that for spraying.


----------



## Ray (Jun 30, 2020)

Ozpaph said:


> I use copper occassionally. I have kept it off dendrobes as per the 'heresay'. I did spray a renanthera seedling and it died but who knows. It doesnt harm paphs at recommended concentrations. You should note that 'copper' isnt copper. Apparently particle size is very important for effectiveness. The finer the better.


Particle size? These are applied as solutions.


----------



## werner.freitag (Jun 30, 2020)

I studied the Phyton 27 a little. Its about 21% Copper Sulphate x 5 H2O ( the normal form , blue cristals ) and about 1% Tannic Acid .
The Tannic Acid forms a complex with the Copper Sulphate and makes the solution more stable.
Ray is ofcause right , its a solution.


----------



## werner.freitag (Jun 30, 2020)

DrLeslieEe said:


> I have used phyton 27 on all plants in my collections including the cuthsbertsoniis, kingianum hybrids, dendrobium species with no issues. I do use a lower dose and wash blooms after (sometimes they damage softer cattleya blooms).
> 
> I have not tried other brands so I can't speak for them.


Leslie , what amount/ concentration do you use ?
Do you use the PHYTON 27 AG , there is a PHYTON 27 NEW DIMENSION in google with lower Copper content.


----------



## werner.freitag (Jun 30, 2020)

Stone said:


> I read an interesting article in an AU orchid mag where a chemist did experiments on reducing the toxicity of copper sprays by mixing it with lime. If I remember correctly ,he also did trial with dendrobium and found no toxicity problems when used this way. He advised not to let it drip onto the p/mix particularly if it was acidic. He said it was still one of the most potent anti-fungals to be had. I now mix copper (oxychloride in this case) with calcium hydroxide into a paste before diluting then use that for spraying.


In former times a mix of Calcium Hydroxide and Copper Sulphate was used as fungicide for growing grapes, called BORDEAUX MIX.


----------



## DrLeslieEe (Jul 1, 2020)

werner.freitag said:


> Leslie , what amount/ concentration do you use ?
> Do you use the PHYTON 27 AG , there is a PHYTON 27 NEW DIMENSION in google with lower Copper content.


I use the original formula 21.36% copper sulphate pentahydrate.


----------



## Ozpaph (Jul 1, 2020)

Ray said:


> Particle size? These are applied as solutions.


Yes. Copper sprays are suspended particles in solution. Particle size is important. http://www.scaffolds.entomology.cornell.edu/2012/SCAFFOLDS 3-12-12.pdf
I read another article but cant find it now; same consclusions.


----------



## Ozpaph (Jul 1, 2020)

and this - https://cdn.nufarm.com/wp-content/u...11014750/NufarmCopperChamps_iPad_REV10.18.pdf


----------



## Ozpaph (Jul 1, 2020)

this is it - http://mvcitrus.org.au/mvcb/wp-cont...pper-sprays-to-control-diseases-in-citrus.pdf


----------



## werner.freitag (Jul 1, 2020)

some are , some are not ! Copper SulphatexH2O is a real solution in an aqueos medium, some other Copper compouds are just suspended.
Sorry, I am a chemist .





Ozpaph said:


> Yes. Copper sprays are suspended particles in solution. Particle size is important. http://www.scaffolds.entomology.cornell.edu/2012/SCAFFOLDS 3-12-12.pdf
> I read another article but cant find it now; same consclusions.


----------



## werner.freitag (Jul 1, 2020)

DrLeslieEe said:


> I use the original formula 21.36% copper sulphate pentahydrate.


thank , you . I will try to copy this formulation, see , if it works.

But how much per liter or gallon ???


----------



## DrLeslieEe (Jul 1, 2020)

1/4 teaspoon per gallon
Shake and mix well
Apply in mornings 
Wash off blooms with light water mist
And also test on few dendrobiums first in case dose too high


----------



## werner.freitag (Jul 1, 2020)

thank you ,Leslie

its about 1ml per liter, 
I am waiting for the Tannic Acid, then make a try, will see.
Phyton is not available here, other copper products are, but should not be as effective ( suspension , no solution )


----------



## Ozpaph (Jul 1, 2020)

Ive never seen copper sulphate sold for horticultural use in Australia (if you exclude 'root killer for blocked drains!)- only copper formulations.


----------



## Ray (Jul 1, 2020)

Ozpaph said:


> Yes. Copper sprays are suspended particles in solution. Particle size is important. http://www.scaffolds.entomology.cornell.edu/2012/SCAFFOLDS 3-12-12.pdf
> I read another article but cant find it now; same consclusions.


Apples and oranges...

Note that those products discussed are intended to lodge in the bark of orchard trees or sit on the leaf surfaces, so they have little to no effect on the tree but kill fungi landing on them. Absolutely not what is done for systemic orchid treatments.


----------



## werner.freitag (Jul 1, 2020)

Ozpaph said:


> Ive never seen copper sulphate sold for horticultural use in Australia (if you exclude 'root killer for blocked drains!)- only copper formulations.


Label and SDS : Phyton 27 AG - Phyton Corporation - | Greenbook


----------



## Ozpaph (Jul 2, 2020)

cant get that here as far as I know..................the copper 'particulate' sprays are the only ones available. Its important to me to know the 'best' preparation as that's what we have available.


----------



## Frankie (Nov 30, 2022)

I see no one answered your question. Did you find anyone with actual experience? I have been alternating with kocide with phyton27 but it is probably overkill. I am also trying to find what works best ( yellow leaf spot in my case). I only started with both. Soon I will do a trial test eoth each separately.


----------

