# Paph thainaum Hybrids (no photos... just a question/game!)



## Kavanaru (Jun 12, 2010)

Not that I am planning to start hybridization with Paphiopedilum thaianum, but since I currently have a blooming plant, I was wondering wondering what people would cross this species with...

This species is not that long ago available, therefore I assume there has not been enough time to have blooming size hybrids... and for this reason, there is nothing already registered in RHS. It can also be, that nobody considers this species is interesting for hybridization (which I do not think!)

so, if Paph thainaum were legal in your country, which crosses would you like to see and why?


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## PaphMadMan (Jun 12, 2010)

Compact hybrids are the obvious goal, but there are so many ways to go.

With any high quality brachy, whether species or hybrid...

Look at successful niveum hybrids and make then with thaianum instead: farrieanum, tonsum, philippinense and primulinum are just a few of the primary hybrids that would be easy choices for me.

Any of other truly small species or hybrids from them: henryanum, helenae, barbigerum, fowliei...


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## Jorch (Jun 12, 2010)

hangianum!!

a tea-cup size Chou-Yi Yuki should be sweet


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## goldenrose (Jun 12, 2010)

Boy, I'm with Kirk ....... so many choices, where do you go 1st? 
It might be nice to hear what are the drawbacks/weaknesses of thainaum for those that have it?


Jorch said:


> hangianum!!
> a tea-cup size Chou-Yi Yuki should be sweet


:clap: Agree .......... :clap:
BUT .......
it would probably take several stepping stones to downsize the beast!


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## NYEric (Jun 12, 2010)

I believe thaianums have been around a while; people just considered them poor examples of niveums. What else do you have to cross it with or are you going to store/trade the pollen?


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jun 12, 2010)

roth, kolopakingii, gigantifolium..........


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## fibre (Jun 13, 2010)

Yes, thaianums are cute, but most of them don't have a good shape. 
I have heard, that its hybrids would have dirty colors too, not as clear as niveum hybrids. But I never saw one.


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## John Boy (Jun 13, 2010)

One big mistake I come across quite frequently is that the majority of hobbyists, and a lot of breeders also, have no imagination whatsoever when it comes to breeding. Some breeders in Europe don’t even know or understand the concept of a breeding-plan. Ask them about stepping stones, and the response would be “What good is that, no money to be made with an ugly hybrid”!
To me, having had the privilege to learn from one of our best breeders, who also happens to be one of our fines growers and nurserymen, it is a shame that people think about breeding in such 2-dimentional-terms. Breeding orchids isn’t about instant success or winning awards with everything that you do. Breeding is like playing chess. It comes down to knowledge and patience. Chuck in “understanding and valuing bigger picture scenarios”, forget about time, ad some bravery and most of all: use your creativity and reason with yourself about what you are about to bring together. If you don’t have a plan, you’re not breeding. Without planning and aims you’re leaving things to chance. A breeder takes risks, and what’s more, they mostly know about it. Good breeders don’t work on strict “good hybrid- bad hybrid” concepts. And a great breeder looks behind the flower or current taste and fashion, and understands the potential and greater aspects of a plant (even it this plant is, or appears to be “ugly” or “unattractive” at first sight). 

I for a start would consider 2 ways to use thaianum to start with:
It obviously needs to be bred into the current Brachypetalum lines, just to see the impacts within it’s closes relatives, and to potentially end up with free-flowering, multi-growth Brachypetalums in 3-3,5” pots. 
Taking it into sanderianum and rothschildianum would be the next thing to do, and also…for the braver ones among us, into hangianum and helenae (to have a line of dwarf-breeding). I’m not sure if I’d take the likes of gigantifolium and kolopakingii into consideration right from the start. It would probably depend on the amount of good thaianum plants at my disposal. One thing is quite sure though. If I had a thaianum like Ramón, I’d make sure it would be bred onto all my best Brachies, giving preference to heavy coloured and concolor-based lines.


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## Kavanaru (Jun 13, 2010)

interesting...  as I mentioned before, I am not planing to cross my thaianum with anything (by now). It is my first and only thaianum and have also no time and space for breeding... 

keeping in mind that thainaum is "like a smaller niveum", something that as for what has been shown here so far, I am not the only who thinks like that  I would have also use this species with the same crosses as niveum, being hangianum "a must" (see how good is the primary niveumxhangianum). Of course, there is no warranty that this two species would behave the same way, but somehow you need to start somewhere... 

for a second option, as also describe, I would also go for the smaller species (I have a weakness for smaller plants) or smaller hybrids. 

Whether the primary hybrid is good or not.... whether it can be considered an improvement over both parents or a milestone for step-breeding is a different consideration... and that's what was included in my original question with a "Why"... 

As for John Boy, I totally agree with you about the importance of having a plan when line breeding. Of course, and not only in Europe!, many breeders don't have a plan for "line breeding" and are focused on "instant gratification" (if this concept is ever valid in orchids breeding )) I think it is a matter of different goals: the line breeders have a goal in mind "improving species, or hybridization lines" and other commercial breeders have another goal: "produce plants they can sell"... in my opinion, both concepts are perfectly valid (as long as the breeder knows very well which approach he/she has and what for)


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## goldenrose (Jun 13, 2010)

fibre said:


> Yes, thaianums are cute, but most of them don't have a good shape.
> I have heard, that its hybrids would have dirty colors too, not as clear as niveum hybrids. But I never saw one.


to me that's one of the biggest drawbacks - the shape. We've seen some pics lately of some really nice ones, I wonder what % are crummy? Is it's culture similar to niveum?
Dirty colors? not encouraging but hearing is one thing, it would have to be from an experienced source.



Eric Muehlbauer said:


> roth, kolopakingii, gigantifolium..........


with thaianum being so little, the one I saw was half the size of an average niveum, I'm having a hard time imagining that crossed with the 'kings'! John Boy I guess I don't have enough imagination!


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## Kavanaru (Jun 13, 2010)

goldenrose, the other important drawback of this species is that apparently it is not easy to keep alive, not to speak about getting to becom a large specimen... I have spoken to two different breeders (one of them specialized in Paphies) and both have told me that they have not yet managed to get a plants to a size with more than 3 growths (normally only two: a mature and a young one)... 

As per the shape, indeed many seems to have a pretty bad shape, but I have also seen some with pretty nice shape too.... there is stil some potential here 

size? yes, they are indeed very small... smaller than Paph helenae... The flowers of my plant have a NS of 3.5 cm (1.4")


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## paphreek (Jun 13, 2010)

Here are a few quick thoughts. They might change as I give the idea more thought.

For me, the first logical step also, would be to try several primary crosses that have been successful with niveum, just to see what differences in breeding there might be between niveum and thaianum. I would first start with godefroyae, bellatullum, fairrieanum, and possibly glaucophyllum or primulinum. 

Because I have an interest in small breeding, I would also try crossing thaianum to one of the more compact green/yellow or white complex Paphs, such as Barbilight, Barb Hella, Rosy Dawn, FC Puddle, or possibly Snowbird 'Opalescense'. For pinks, I might try Paph Mildred Hunter. 

Finally, my third choices for breeding would be helenae and rothschildianum. The reason I would not pursue a helenae cross immediately is that brachy x helenae crosses have been made, but none have been awarded, and I haven't even seen a photo of this type of cross to evaluate. This MIGHT mean that they are difficult to bloom or have very poor flowers. The roth cross could be very interesting, but given my interest in small complex Paphs, it would not be a first choice cross for me, especially because it would be best done with the thaianum as the seed parent.

And finally to horrify the species purists out there, oke: I would consider crossing it to niveum to improve flower shape, stem height, and plant vigor while hopefully maintaining a tiny plant.


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## tenman (Jun 13, 2010)

I second the helenae idea, but my first choice would be coccineum for the color and size.


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## NYEric (Jun 13, 2010)

goldenrose said:


> with thaianum being so little, the one I saw was half the size of an average niveum, I'm having a hard time imagining that crossed with the 'kings'! John Boy I guess I don't have enough imagination!



Miniature Poodle x Great Dane!? :evil:

Lots of interesting points. I would x it by hang or emersonii to round out the pouch and then work on the color.


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## rdlsreno (Jun 13, 2010)

Maybe Paph. Pacific Rainbow (henryanum cross) to get miniture (tea cup) white complex paphs.

Ramon


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## paphioboy (Jun 14, 2010)

Thaianum x cochlopetalums, thaianum x Vinicolor Maudiaes..


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