# Too much Ca!



## dodidoki (Dec 3, 2014)

I used this formula, original K-lite:
K-lite:

14 N : 1 E ( 27%)
Ca/N: 2 E ( 42/20 %)
Wuxal (NPK= 8/8/6): 2 E (16/16/12%)
Mg 4% : 4 E (16%)
Fe 20x dil., 0,5 E
Mn 20x dil: 0,25E
Zn: 20xdil.: 0,25 E
B : 20x dil.: 0,2 E 

My experiences next: in firs time plants were very happy: root formation was incredible, but: some months later despite of srtong rooting plants stopped and leaves became yellowing. I looked after: much Ca causes Mg deficiency. I reduced Ca ( with 50 %) and increased Mg ( with 25%) and increased K ( with 100%). Leaves begun to become much greener. Any experience?


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## gonewild (Dec 3, 2014)

dodidoki said:


> I used this formula, original K-lite:
> K-lite:
> 
> 14 N : 1 E ( 27%)
> ...



What is media pH and water pH?
I don't quite understand your nutrient ratio, what was the N-P-K-Ca-Mg ratio before you changed?

What is "E"?


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## TyroneGenade (Dec 3, 2014)

There competition for between Mg and Ca for the uptake mechanism. More of one will mean less of the other. 





A shortage of Mg will manifest as reduced chlorophyll production as well as an increased sensitivity to pathogens (explaining your rot issues).

Note in the chart above, that excessive K will cause the same issue so you might be reducing the K some time in the future when you see the same problems (or signs of Ca deficiency).


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## dodidoki (Dec 3, 2014)

12-1-1-10Ca-3Mg

This is standard K-lite. I think 12:2:2:5:3 is better.


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## gonewild (Dec 3, 2014)

dodidoki said:


> I think 12:2:2:5:3 is better.



It might be. It's pretty close to the same and certainly within the range that would be influenced by media and environmental variations.


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## Ray (Dec 3, 2014)

FWIW, I've fed all of my plants with K-Lite at 25-30 ppm N at every watering for the last three full years, and I am seeing no negatives whatsoever.


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## NYEric (Dec 3, 2014)

I thought it said too much caT! I'm outta here!


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## gonewild (Dec 3, 2014)

Ray said:


> FWIW, I've fed all of my plants with K-Lite at 25-30 ppm N at every watering for the last three full years, and I am seeing no negatives whatsoever.



How often do you water?
Interested to know how many ppms add up per week.


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## Ozpaph (Dec 3, 2014)

dodidoki said:


> 12-1-1-10Ca-3Mg
> 
> This is standard K-lite. I think 12:2:2:5:3 is better.



I dont believe a small change like that has any effect compared to all the other factors in the growing environment. One of the best paph growers I know uses Aquasol or the fertilizer he wins as a prize.
Fine tune nutrition AFTER you fix temp, water, light, air movement etc


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## Ray (Dec 3, 2014)

gonewild said:


> How often do you water?
> 
> Interested to know how many ppms add up per week.




Lance, it probably averages to 3x per week, year round. In summer, it's at least every other day, and as it gets gray in the late fall, that drops, until the cold, clear sky of January/February lets the sun in again.


Ray Barkalow
firstrays.com


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## Stone (Dec 3, 2014)

Ozpaph said:


> I dont believe a small change like that has any effect compared to all the other factors in the growing environment. One of the best paph growers I know uses Aquasol or the fertilizer he wins as a prize.
> Fine tune nutrition AFTER you fix temp, water, light, air movement etc



Could not agree more! Aquasol, K and urea up the kazoo!


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## gonewild (Dec 3, 2014)

Ray said:


> Lance, it probably averages to 3x per week, year round. In summer, it's at least every other day, and as it gets gray in the late fall, that drops, until the cold, clear sky of January/February lets the sun in again.
> Ray Barkalow
> firstrays.com



OK just to make a relation to your 25ppm x3 per week rate and Ricks 5ppm x7 rate....

You apply 75ppm per week
Rick applies 35ppm per week.

Ricks roots get a wetting 7 times in the week and yours get wet 3 times.

Probably a strange way to look at it but it appears you both are supplying the same amount of nutrients to your plants. But if that is true then you would be wasting half your nutrients. 
:crazy: what were we talking about?


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## Ray (Dec 4, 2014)

Of course we're wasting nutrients. That plants probably only need a fraction of what were applying.

Many of my plants, especially paphs, are in s/h culture, so are wet and exposed to the solutions all the time.


Ray Barkalow
firstrays.com


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## Rick (Dec 4, 2014)

You can overdo Ca but you need a lot. If there is still calcium products added to potting mix and/or high calcium tap water is used in irrigation.

How much is in the Wuxal (there are 11 different Wuxal products and one is a calcium booster).

Also ammonia will block Ca and Mg. So compared to a straight K lite (with high percent NO3, low ammonia) you can get more nitrifcation in the potting mix (lowering pH) and antagonism of divalent cations.

Overall I think way to much N going into your system, and too many interactions to just peg a single causitive factor.

Need to use less of everything and not try to fix antagonistic reactions by adding more of something else.


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## dodidoki (Dec 7, 2014)

Rick said:


> You can overdo Ca but you need a lot. If there is still calcium products added to potting mix and/or high calcium tap water is used in irrigation.
> 
> How much is in the Wuxal (there are 11 different Wuxal products and one is a calcium booster).
> 
> ...



While I raised Ca/Mg ratio from 10/3 to 5/3, yellowing symptoms stopped and new leaves became more green. NH4 ratio in my reztilizer mix only about 1/8 NH4/total N. Mg is one of the most important factor in normal chlorophyll synthesis. I think K-lite is good way to reduce Erwinia rot ( my experience is good, only one rot appeared within one year- but it killed one of my most expensive plant- by Murphy's low), but better to modify it as I wrote it before.


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## dodidoki (Dec 7, 2014)

A pic for understanding. My fairreianum semialbum with no root problems but fading leaves. After raising Ca/Mg ratio, new leaves became greener.


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## dodidoki (Dec 7, 2014)

NOTE! This is MY experience!!! I can't wait yours!


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## Rick (Dec 7, 2014)

dodidoki said:


> While I raised Ca/Mg ratio from 10/3 to 5/3, yellowing symptoms stopped and new leaves became more green.
> 
> Mg is one of the most important factor in normal chlorophyll synthesis.



Mg is the core of the chlorophyll molecule, but sulfur, iron, molybdate, and phosphate are probably more important for the actual synthesis.

So when you boosted Mg with epsom salt you also pushed up Sulfate, which is not reflected in your basic 5 element ratio list.

Starting to get into fine tuning now.

Rather than cutting back Ca in the irrigation mix, I boosted up Mg/SO4/PO4 a tiny bit and got rid of my minority of paling cases.


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## gonewild (Dec 7, 2014)

dodidoki said:


> I think K-lite is good way to reduce Erwinia rot ( my experience is good, only one rot appeared within one year- but it killed one of my most expensive plant- by Murphy's low), but better to modify it as I wrote it before.



Just as an observation on what you wrote...
You started using K-lite and your rot problem stopped... then...
You doubled your potassium amount and your best plant died.
You might guess what I am thinking? oke:


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## Rick (Dec 7, 2014)

ratios of 1:1 to 10:1 Ca:Mg ratios are not uncommon in-situ. 

Same as for the ratios of Ca to Mg in limestone. So it's not impossible to see some species specific ratio issues, but kind of doubt it comparing the difference between K lite and your new mix Dodi.

But K lite is real sparse on sulfate relative to the real world systems, and subsequently, in general, an element overlooked in agriculture.

Given 30,000 species and 10X that many hybrids there's a lot of latitude for tweaking the formula and catching the outliers. The objective overall is to get out of the problems due to antagonism of excess constituents rather than diagnosing true deficiencies.


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