# Paph. wenshanense and concolor characteristics?



## Kostas (Jan 29, 2016)

Hello,

I was looking over the Brachypetalum section and from the wetter loving species, Paph. wenshanense looks to be of the nicer ones, with bigger leaf and flower size than the rest of the species. Am I correct in that?

I would like to ask how the wenshanense actually compares to concolor, which one is bigger and what are their differences. Is wenshanense now considered a true species, or a population of hybrid origin? Also, how wenshanense compares with leucochilum in leaf and flower size, and in leaf patterning? What's the more impressive one? I generally prefer yellows to whites.
Is concolor able to grow to a size challenging the bigger leafed and flowered species or is it smaller growing?

Thank you very much in advance


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 29, 2016)

With the obvious exception of thaianum, pretty much all the brachy species vary quite a bit in the size of their leaves and flowers, but pretty much all are of very much the same in my opinion. It's more like individual plants difference rather than distinct species differences when you talk "size".

On average, I would say, bellatulum tends to be on the larger side compared to the other species in the section with regard to the plant or leaf size, and leucochilum tend to be on the larger than others in flower size.
Again, this is highly variable. Even niveum can have a flower that is 9cm wide, or larger, but I think 9cm across is the biggest I've seen. Now that's considered very big for not just niveum but for other brachy in general I would think.
The only thing that is well over 10cm often is leucochilum.

Now, leaf or plant size, leuchochilum tend to be smaller than others, but again, it's variable. I've seen some very long leaves on this species as well.

Leaf pattern, also variable, but it seems bellatulum and concolor, hence wenshanense almost always have very "busy" and attractively marked (this is highly personal I guess) leaves. 
Leucochilum on the other hand, usually have rather "dull" leaves with just a little bit of silver marks. Again, this is variable among individual plants.
But on average, their leaves are no where near as pretty as the other species in my eyes, although I do have one that is uniquely different than the norm.

All these are relatively compact plants, but they may form fairly large clump over time, if you are lucky with a willing plant under right conditions.

Flower color, you like yellow to white. That's pretty much all the color you can get out of these plants. oke:
If you want yellow, then probably concolor or wenshanense var. aureum or fma. flava (not sure which is correct way to say this variety, but there is one with pure yellow with no spots but the underside of the leaves are dark) might be your best bet as other species rarely come out yellow if ever. Mostly white to off white, like ivory.


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## Kostas (Jan 29, 2016)

That is exactly the kind of first hand information I wanted to know, thank you very much for taking the time to write it down! 

It seems wenshanense and maybe concolor offer the best of both worlds, biggish yellow base color flowers(I do like the red patterns on them) with nice leafs. Leucochilum sometimes comes with a yellowish base color as well but the leafs seldom are well patterned.

Is wenshanense considered a pure species, with stable characteristics, or a hybrid swarm? If it was accepted as a species name and raised to species level, I would guess it's considered a true, stable species. Do you know the details of what set it apart and gave it a species status?

Does concolor get to be as big as wenshanense in flower size(9+cm)? Do both have purple leaf undersides?

Do wenshanense and concolor like to be grown much wetter than leucochilum or are they all similar in the wetness(or lack thereof) they prefer?


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 29, 2016)

I'm glad to help.
Regarding wenshanense, I think it is kind of like Paphiopedilum Fanaticum.
It is a naturally found hybrid, but can of course be made by men.
Some people consider it as a separate species, but I don't see how a primary hybrid whether it is natural or not can be of distinct species.
but then again, I'm not a taxonomist, so 

The flower size of both are variable, so can't really generalize.
You just have to be lucky to have plants with fairly large flower for type.
Concolor leaves are quite cool in that they can have either no pigment or a little bit or a lot. I find that quite strange. 

I can't tell you for sure about the culture. 
The big difference I understand is that leucochilum and niveum need very warm temperature year around to do best while bella and concolor goes through some cool period in nature.
Seasonal variation in rain fall might also be similar, but as far as I understand, all these are often found growing on the crack of rocks, so you want excellent drainage.
Under cultivation, watering is needed year around I believe.

I remember some one on this forum posted a picture of a friend's bellatulum and other brachys potted in clay pot with bark mix, but the pots were all sitting in the shallow pond. All the plants were super healthy and in clump.
I was amazed at the sight!


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## paphioboy (Jan 29, 2016)

The wenshanense I had grew much better than either of the parents, presumably because of hybrid vigour or better tolerance to less stable environmental conditions. As said by happypaphy7, plant size varies very much between individuals. Generally for concolor, there are two 'sizes' of plants, one with pale short leaves which I think is the lowland type (this has pale but rounder flowers), another with long, darker mottled leaves, which is the Chinese or Burmese type (this has darker yellow flowers, but shape is not as round). Wenshanense is of course variable, there are some lousy ones with the more wild concolor-type shape, the best ones are round with clear yellow/white background and nice spotting inherited from bellatulum.


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## JAB (Jan 29, 2016)

Great questions and awesome answers! Thanks guys!


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## PaphMadMan (Jan 30, 2016)

Happypaphy7 said:


> I'm glad to help.
> Regarding wenshanense, I think it is kind of like Paphiopedilum Fanaticum.
> It is a naturally found hybrid, but can of course be made by men.
> Some people consider it as a separate species, but I don't see how a primary hybrid whether it is natural or not can be of distinct species.
> but then again, I'm not a taxonomist, so



A natural population of Paph x wenshanense (or any recognized natural hybrid) is rarely a simple primary hybrid. It is often a hybrid swarm of back crosses to the parent species, and many generations of breeding within and between every possible combination, yielding a range of types recombining the parental traits, and sometimes eventually resulting in something new. It covers the whole process from the first cross (that might happen once or 500 times) and everything that descends from it, to introgression of genes into the parental species, to the possible eventual evolution of new species. It could be a single first-generation plant found, or millions throughout a region after 1000 generations. That's part of why in can be controversial and hard to define, as if even defining the simplest species is ever totally non-controversial. 

Natural hybridization has been a big part of the evolutionary process in orchids, and probably a big reason why the early attempts at genetic analysis have often led to surprising or conflicting results. Even when it can be proven that a natural hybrid and a man-made hybrid are derived from the same species they should always be known by different names - Paph x wenshanense and Paph Conco-bellatulum, Paph x fanaticum and Paph Fanaticum.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 30, 2016)

Thanks for the great input, Kirk.

One questions is though, how the heck then does one decide if such potentially highly "bred" plant is a separate species?
If Paph. wenshanense might only just involve two mentioned species in its making, but individual plants differ in how much of what is in them, it technically is not the same as just a simple primary as you say.
So, wenshanense is considered any plant that has two named species in its making regardless of how much of which and how many times?
Then, this is definitely not the same as man-made version of conco-bellatulum.

By the way, fanaticum might very well fall into this same story, then, right? 
I thought fanaticum vs. Fanaticum was the differentiation between the natural and man-made.
Wenshanense is always for the natural ones, then?? only conco-bellatulum being used for the man-made version?
Can I rely one the tag when it says wenshanense that it is a naturally found version?
I have two plants of Paph. wenshanense (clear yellow flowered type).
What are these? naturally found or man-made??


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 30, 2016)

I meant to post some pictures last night when I was posting comments, but photobucket has been down forever!

So the first two were shot in the dim light, so they don't look that great, but enough detail to show the difference I thought.

Bellatulum






Wenshanense (clear yellow flowered one)





And leuchochilum. You can see the one on top in the picture is a bit different than the other two, which have more or less typical leave patterns and colors.


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## PaphMadMan (Jan 31, 2016)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Thanks for the great input, Kirk.
> 
> One questions is though, how the heck then does one decide if such potentially highly "bred" plant is a separate species?
> If Paph. wenshanense might only just involve two mentioned species in its making, but individual plants differ in how much of what is in them, it technically is not the same as just a simple primary as you say.
> ...



There aren't any set criteria for when a natural hybrid has evolved into a species; there really aren't any set criteria to define a species at all. A species is what an author has described in publication as a species, subject to peer review, with general agreement of knowledgeable individuals over time, and always subject to revision based on new evidence or new interpretation. A new species publication is a scientific hypothesis that either becomes theory accepted as provisional fact over time, or it doesn't. Science is messy.

In the case of a population derived from a natural hybrid I would assume that if there is a set of stable characteristics that can be defined, and no tendency to segregate out characteristics of the parent species, a case to call it a species can probably be made.

The man-made cross of Paph bellatulum and Paph concolor is registered as Paph Conco-bellatulum. It must always be called Conco-bellatulum, and you can breed Conco-bellatulum x Conco-bellatulum for as many generations as you want and it is still Conco-bellatulum, but along the way you can select different characteristics and produce very different plants.

Species or not, Paph wenshanense has been formally published as a naturally occurring form. You can breed wenshanense x wenshanense for as many generations as you want and it is still wenshanense, but along the way you can select different characteristics and produce very different plants.

Conco-bellatulum and wenshanse are not interchangeable, but in either case you could end up with very similar forms, like your clear yellow flowered types for instance. The only way to know which is which is to trust that breeders are honest about it and maintain accurate records, but that is true with any plant.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 31, 2016)

Ok.


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## Kostas (Feb 2, 2016)

Thank you very much for your detailed replies and the foliage photos! Most appreciated!!

I found and read the description of Paph. wenshanense and it's different in inflorescence anatomy(it has an extra bract) from the hybrid and the respective "supposed" parents. So it's a distinct species according to its description and since the description was published after peer review, it has a clear species status and nothing to do with any man made cross. It's as Kirk said

Thanks to your descriptions and photos, I am going for Paph. wenshanense and Paph. leucochilum to get the best of both flower and leaf pattern 




How does culture affect leaf patterning?


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## Happypaphy7 (Feb 2, 2016)

They are cute!
Thanks for the input. 
I didn't know about the extra bract. I'll have to look closely when mine flower next time. 

Regarding leaf pattern, I think it's in the gene.
The clairity or color contrast between green and silver might enhance under slightly lower light, but I don't see any change in mine other than Maudiae types. 
They definitely look prettier when grown under a bit shadier. Even then, I don't see a huge change.


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## Kostas (Feb 3, 2016)

Looking forward to your observations 

The plants above are my Paph. leucochilum, selected for the best leaf patterning among the group. Their parent plants had 10+cm flowers.
Great to know that pattern contrast increases with shade! That should make for nicer and bigger leafs. These are almost blooming size, with chunky leafs but still small overall size. One of their siblings is putting out a bud. Hope these grow much bigger eventually


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## Happypaphy7 (Feb 3, 2016)

Oh, ok.
I thought they both looked like leucochilum, but your description gave me the impression of them being wenshanense and leuco, and I thought it was very strange. Now it's clear! 

When I bought my first leuco, it had two small growths and sold as blooming size. It took about two years before they flowered for me.
They incrased in size and number of the fans, which is now 6 now.
I guess once they hit certain point, things start to pop. lol

My second leuco from the same seller, but from a different breeding, also came with two growths, but this plant is bigger in size. 
will see when this one will flower for me.


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## Kostas (Feb 3, 2016)

Yes, it sounded like that, I wanted to edit my original post right after posting to clarify but the server wasn't responding.

Very nice progress on yours! These are some years out of flask and got them for a good price. Let's see how they do for me and when they will eventually flower.

I wish you good, fast growth and flowering on your second one as well!


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## Happypaphy7 (Feb 3, 2016)

Thanks, I wish the same on your plants.


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## Kostas (Feb 3, 2016)

Thank you


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