# Newly acquired Paph. sanderianum



## Camellkc (Jan 7, 2015)

Just share the blooms. Compared with those owned by expertise, this is definitely not a good one but I only wish to touch this species.







I hope adult plant is easier for it to thrive afterward.


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## ehanes7612 (Jan 7, 2015)

hmm


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## NYEric (Jan 7, 2015)

Hey, you have a blooming sandy; be happy.


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## Bjorn (Jan 8, 2015)

Can you show a picture of the ovaries? They should be entirely white. I have a similar which I doomed to be a Michael Koopowitctz'ich hybrid. Nice but not the real stuff. Sorry for this but it is a lovely plant anyhow; - and if the ovaries are white, I'd go for sanderianum.


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## Camellkc (Jan 8, 2015)

Bjorn said:


> Can you show a picture of the ovaries? They should be entirely white. I have a similar which I doomed to be a Michael Koopowitctz'ich hybrid. Nice but not the real stuff. Sorry for this but it is a lovely plant anyhow; - and if the ovaries are white, I'd go for sanderianum.



I will try to take a picture for your comment after I go home tonight. To my understanding, however, if it is MK hybrid, its pouch's color will be yellowish. It comes from In-Charm Orchid Nursery of Taiwan and I think the possibility of getting the wrong label is not high.

Thank you for your comments anyway, which I have learnt something on sanderianum.


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## Ozpaph (Jan 8, 2015)

lovely.
I didnt know that about the ovary being white. Is that true for every sanderianum?


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## Camellkc (Jan 8, 2015)

NYEric said:


> Hey, you have a blooming sandy; be happy.



If the price is cheaper, I would be more happy.. Blooming plant is still very expensive here, and over the world I think.


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## Camellkc (Jan 8, 2015)

Ozpaph said:


> lovely.
> I didnt know that about the ovary being white. Is that true for every sanderianum?



i wish to know also. . Any expert to give an answer?


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## Bjorn (Jan 8, 2015)

There has been a lot of "close to sanderianum" hybrids around, probably because sanderianum is not growing well for most people while the hybrids do. So, if it is not extremely slow growing, I immediately think of hybrids. There has been some info about this in earlier posts by Roth, must be at least 4 years ag now? If you search his posts you might find it there. But of course if the ovary is white, then there should not be any doubt.
Lovely plant anyway.


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## polyantha (Jan 8, 2015)

Yes, if the ovary is white (sometimes with red hair for sandie), you can be sure that the plant is a straight sanderianum. With one exception: if you cross it with gigantifolium it will stay white, but there is no doubt that anyone will notice a gig in a hybrid  I'd say that yours is a true sanderianum...


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## naoki (Jan 8, 2015)

Thank you for the info, Bjorn. I think this is the post you are talking about:

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14254


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## Camellkc (Jan 8, 2015)

Thanks guys that you teach me a lesson. I have a sight on the ovaries that it is in white color. I am pretty sure that it is a pure sanderianum!


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## Bjorn (Jan 8, 2015)

Naoki, no its not that one, its one about all the scams that are from Taiwan, perhaps the one with the rothschilianum he had? Checked it up and it was not, but here is the thread.
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24294&highlight=sanderianum&page=3
There was also this story about a big import to the states that turned out to be hybrids, might remember wrongly here but believe it was sanderianums.


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## The Mutant (Jan 8, 2015)

But I've seen several pictures of MKs with white ovaries and mine has white ovaries with some red hairs on them as well? So white ovaries doesn't necessarily mean it's straight sanderianum, or? 


OP, I'm not doubting the ID of your plant, I'm just curious about the white ovaries in general.


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## Bjorn (Jan 8, 2015)

Mine had almost white ovaries, but some light colored stripes along the ridges.


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## Bjorn (Jan 8, 2015)

Here is mine btw.


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## The Mutant (Jan 8, 2015)

The ovaries look white to me, so I guess that the colouring really is faint. Very nice and chunky MK you've got there. Why not post pictures of it in its own thread? oke:

I just realized that the ovaries have turned green on my MK. Could be because it's soon done flowering (it has dropped the first flower).


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## Bjorn (Jan 8, 2015)

here you see it, excuse the quality of the picture




The pictures are from 2013. The plant is in good condition but has not flowered after this one occasion. Just after flowering, I managed to drop the plant onto the floor and crushed it quite badly. The plant took it well but did not look good afterwards. Hopefully there wil be another flowering soon:drool: No signs of it yet though


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## The Mutant (Jan 8, 2015)

So you suffer from the 'fumblefingersyndrome', too? Sometimes I think it's my second hobby to drop the Paphs and see which ones survive... I'll keep my fingers crossed for your MK!

Oh, mine doesn't have that colouring at all. They're just white (or very lightly green now) and slightly hairy. Here's an equally bad picture of the ovary of mine when it started to open its second flower.


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## Bjorn (Jan 8, 2015)

???
now I am getting confused. How to definitely assure whether or not you have a sanderianum? Istvan?
B


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## The Mutant (Jan 8, 2015)

That's what I got confused about as well, because mine is an MK, no doubt about it.


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## Camellkc (Jan 8, 2015)

Show you the ovary of my sanderianum, pure white in color~~







Re. Muntant, no doubt that yours must be MK as distinguished from the color of pouch - Yellowish.


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## The Mutant (Jan 8, 2015)

Camellkc said:


> Show you the ovary of my sanderianum, pure white in color~~
> 
> 
> Re. Muntant, no doubt that yours must be MK as distinguished from the color of pouch - Yellowish.


But the ovary on yours looks like the one on Bjorn's i.e. not pure white? It looks like it has the same faint colouring like his does or is that only how it appears on my screen?

Yup, mine is a sandishyellowbrown kind of colour and I don't think the pouches has that particular shape I've come to associate with sanderianum (yours have that shape however).

I'm just getting more and more confused...


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## Camellkc (Jan 8, 2015)

The Mutant said:


> But the ovary on yours looks like the one on Bjorn's i.e. not pure white? It looks like it has the same faint colouring like his does or is that only how it appears on my screen?
> 
> Yup, mine is a sandishyellowbrown kind of colour and I don't think the pouches has that particular shape I've come to associate with sanderianum (yours have that shape however).
> 
> I'm just getting more and more confused...



Maybe the color of photo has distortion. It is white in reality. . I think we should distinguish whether it is a sanderianum from more traits, such as color of petals, pouch etc. other than simply from the ovary's color.

I have a MK in spike and the first flower will open in these few days. I can photo it with my sanderianum for comparison.


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## The Mutant (Jan 8, 2015)

Camellkc said:


> Maybe the color of photo has distortion. It is white in reality. . I think we should distinguish whether it is a sanderianum from more traits, such as color of petals, pouch etc. other than simply from the ovary's color.
> 
> I have a MK in spike and the first flower will open in these few days. I can photo it with my sanderianum for comparison.


It could be the hairs making it look like it has pinkish stripes. Of what I can discern of the staminoids in the first picture, yours also look like sanderianum (they appear more 'pinched' at the bottom than on MK for example). It seems my MK came and messed up the 'easy' way to confirm if what one have is a pure sandy or not. :rollhappy:

To me, yours look like a straight sandy and I'm feeling guilty for casting any doubts on the ID of your Paph. I'll go and spank my MK for being odd.


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## Bjorn (Jan 8, 2015)

I have never seen anything like this! Its my plants twin! Could they have the same source? I have a feeling that mine came from Taiwan although it was bought as a seedling in Germany. It grew very well and until it flowered I was convinced that it was a sandie. Afterwards I have been convinced that there was some genetic mix-up perhaps Mk x sandie? Or similar? Well now I do not know what to believe anymore, at least mine is no typical sanderianum, too round shoulders and not pointed enough, my flower is just not narrow enough for a typical sanderianum. What shall I believe?:sob:


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## The Mutant (Jan 8, 2015)

Bjorn said:


> I have never seen anything like this! Its my plants twin! Could they have the same source? I have a feeling that mine came from Taiwan although it was bought as a seedling in Germany. It grew very well and until it flowered I was convinced that it was a sandie. Afterwards I have been convinced that there was some genetic mix-up perhaps Mk x sandie? Or similar? Well now I do not know what to believe anymore, at least mine is no typical sanderianum, too round shoulders and not pointed enough, my flower is just not narrow enough for a typical sanderianum. What shall I believe?:sob:


It seems the more pictures we post in this thread, the more confusing it gets... I also thought it looked like the ovaries on your MK, but the flowers look different.


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## eggshells (Jan 8, 2015)

I will play the devil's advocate and say that it might be a possibility of MK being back crossed to sanderianum. In fact, Bjorn's plants looks like an MK backcross to me. The thing with a back cross is you can see plants that you can tell the obvious difference that its a hybrid but some progenies of the cross will be so close to one of the parent species that it is often hard to distinguish if not impossible. You have to look at subtle differences (like white ovaries for sandies..) as clue. To make it even more harder, some population in nature have these subtle differences and to me the only way to be sure is to know the progenies of the parent plant. Check out the vietnamense (red pigmentation staminode vs pure green) same can be said to godefroyae. Another example is the Cochlopetalum section. Might as well call all of them Pinocchio. (a little exaggeration on my part) 

Obviously 90% of the plants in the market have unknown sources. This is the reason why I am so against back crosses. It just adds to the confusion.

Just to be clear. I am not saying Camellkc plant is a hybrid. But it has a possibility of being one. In-Charm is a reputable source but even reputable sources will have this hiccups especially if the parent plant's origin is questionable.


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## Bjorn (Jan 8, 2015)

After rechecking the pictures, I have come to the conclusion that mine is MK x S while Camellk's probably is a sanderianum. But this back-crossing business makes it difficult. Quite a few awarded clones of different species has turned out to be hybrids. Eggshell mentiones a few, is there any pure leucochillum out there?, another one is that gigantic esquirolei Taka that might just as well be Hans Strahl ( Bidborough x esquiroleii) the last one was rewarded at the world congress in Dijon. JeanLux knows that story well.:evil::arrr::fight:


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## The Mutant (Jan 8, 2015)

Bjorn said:


> After rechecking the pictures, I have come to the conclusion that mine is MK x S while Camellk's probably is a sanderianum. But this back-crossing business makes it difficult. Quite a few awarded clones of different species has turned out to be hybrids. Eggshell mentiones a few, is there any pure leucochillum out there?, another one is that gigantic esquirolei Taka that might just as well be Hans Strahl ( Bidborouh x esquiroleii) the last one was rewarded at the world congress in Lyon. JeanLux knows that story well.:evil::arrr::fight:


Does this mean it's possible than my MK is an MK x S too? White ovaries and all, sanderianum seems to be rather dominant in it anyway:


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## Cheyenne (Jan 8, 2015)

We need more pictures from straight on showing the dorsal with the stripes and petal marking. I am really leaning to this not being a pure sanderianum. The petals look to wide, dorsal looks to wide, petals stay pretty wide after leaving the pouch and not very long petals. I would measure the dorsal also. In the best sanderianum breeding out there the dorsal width is around 2.5-2.9cm. More commonly it is 2-2.5cm. That is for the best breeding. Common clones are usually 1.5-2cm.


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## Bjorn (Jan 8, 2015)

Mutant, I have no clue. But it is possible. This whole hybrid swarm seems to be....just that, a swarm.
Cheyenne, finally something tangible, thanks.


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## dodidoki (Jan 8, 2015)

Bjorn said:


> ???
> now I am getting confused. How to definitely assure whether or not you have a sanderianum? Istvan?
> B










Here is mine "ex-sanderianum" ( I sent is to heaven by erwinia rot.. )


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## dodidoki (Jan 8, 2015)

Camellkc said:


> Just share the blooms. Compared with those owned by expertise, this is definitely not a good one but I only wish to touch this species.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think it is not clear sandy. Typical sandy has two "shoulders", too, formed by laterals.


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## dodidoki (Jan 8, 2015)

Sandy like a body bilder with two melons under its armpits.


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## eggshells (Jan 8, 2015)

Mutant, yours looks like an MK.


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## The Mutant (Jan 8, 2015)

dodidoki said:


> Sandy like a body bilder with two melons under its armpits.


:rollhappy:

Love the description.



eggshells said:


> Mutant, yours looks like an MK.


Yay! I would've called it that either way, but it's always nice to have correctly labeled plants. Mine is a shy MK.


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## NYEric (Jan 8, 2015)

there are no fake Parvis going around, are there? :evil:


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## MorandiWine (Jan 8, 2015)

Just fake besseae Eric ;-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2


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## Camellkc (Jan 8, 2015)

dodidoki said:


> Sandy like a body bilder with two melons under its armpits.



Thank you for your comment. I immediately screen through some photos posted in Google, and also those posted by Mr. Shen and note that shoulder is not a must for sanderianum. I think something changes after several breeding programmes and the petal width seems also varies. Some as wide as mine while some as narrow as 1 cm.

I have measured the DS and it is 2.1 cm.


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## SlipperKing (Jan 9, 2015)

This is not a sanderianum. It is a Michael Koopowitz at best. You are mistaken about your ovaries. There is plenty of red/pink in yours, in the three plants I bloomed, pure white no hint at all of color. 
Take the plant back and demand a true sandie.


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## Justin (Jan 9, 2015)

sorry to be the bearer of bad news but i have to agree with Rick. Not a sand. 

it's a pretty nice multifloral Paph...but if you paid sanderianum prices for it then i would ask for a return.


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## Justin (Jan 9, 2015)

here's my Paph sanderianum...you can see how different is it.

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27529&highlight=sanderianum


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## Camellkc (Jan 9, 2015)

Thanks! I would deal with the seller!! It costs me $200 USD!! Reputable seller sometimes has problem also!


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## Camellkc (Jan 11, 2015)

I have contacted the dealer today and he said that whether the ovary is pure white for sanderianum depends for the clones. They had sold wild collected sandies with color pigments on the ovaries in the past. I am told that this sandy was also wild collected and has adapted the manupliated environment for few years before it flowers. Although I have a chance for being cheated, I think it is a good muti and keep it anyway.


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## Bjorn (Jan 11, 2015)

Interesting?! Could we all be that wrong? If so then perhaps mine is a real one as well. Nevertheless, a nice multi
Pity with that uncertainty/confusion


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## Secundino (Jan 11, 2015)

Always cheers one's day up reading about wild collected Paphs.


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## Camellkc (Jan 11, 2015)

Secundino said:


> Always cheers one's day up reading about wild collected Paphs.



If I know that it is a wild collected plant, I will not consider as for natural conservation purpose. Also, wild collected plants are more difficult to care too!


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## gonewild (Jan 11, 2015)

Camellkc said:


> If I know that it is a wild collected plant, I will not consider as for natural conservation purpose. Also, wild collected plants are more difficult to care too!



It's a wild collected plant that represents the true species. Treasure it.

It starts to sound like all the plants people are using to compare it to to determine if it is a species or hybrid, well.... perhaps those plants may be hybrids or line bred to the point they no longer represent the wild form. The only person that truly knows is the person that either grew the seed or collected the plant. In your case your supplier said it was wild collected and you should believe him (since what he says is not considered PC and sellers usually try to hide that fact).


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## dodidoki (Jan 11, 2015)

Justin said:


> here's my Paph sanderianum...you can see how different is it.
> 
> http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27529&highlight=sanderianum




Very nice real sandy and have a look at its shoulders what I talked about previously.


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