# Root PORN!!!



## papheteer (Jul 21, 2013)

Root growth has been amazing since I started using a different fertlizer and pure tap water. Few plants are still pale but most have recovered nicely. I am in the process of repotting most of my plants. Thanks to eggshells and Paphman for pointing me to the right direction!

Here are some pics! I'll take more as I repot more plants.


----------



## mrhappyrotter (Jul 21, 2013)

Root porn for parvi fetishists for sure.


----------



## ALToronto (Jul 21, 2013)

Root port indeed! Which direction was that?


----------



## gonewild (Jul 21, 2013)

papheteer said:


> Root growth has been amazing since I started using a different fertlizer and pure tap water.



And the secret different fertilizer is????


----------



## papheteer (Jul 21, 2013)

Used k-lite and RO water for a while. I also added crushed oyster shells on some
Plants. Then my plants started turning really pale and stopped growing. Then eggshells told me its nitrogen deficiency and told me to use plant-prod 25-10-10 that has some ammoniacal and urea N. I've also been supplementing with calcium nitrate seaweed extract. I also fertilize at 1/8 tsp/gallon of water every watering. Also I've been watering them a bit more. Some of them haven't been repotted for years so i wouldn't attribute the root growth to new potting media.


----------



## papheteer (Jul 21, 2013)

I have to say the N deficiency is not because of k-lite per se. But due to it being all nitrate and my addition of crushed oyster shells.


----------



## gonewild (Jul 21, 2013)

What rate had you been applying K-lite that allowed the Nitrogen deficiency?


----------



## papheteer (Jul 21, 2013)

I was using 1/8 -1/4 tsp/ gallon of r/0 with some tap added.


----------



## gonewild (Jul 21, 2013)

papheteer said:


> I was using 1/8 -1/4 tsp/ gallon of r/0 with some tap added.



Were you fertilizing every time you watered?

So basically by switching to the 25-10-10 you doubled the the amount of Nitrogen you were applying.

Did you by any chance try K-lite at a stronger rate before you switched to 25-10-10?


----------



## papheteer (Jul 21, 2013)

gonewild said:


> Were you fertilizing every time you watered?
> 
> So basically by switching to the 25-10-10 you doubled the the amount of Nitrogen you were applying.
> 
> Did you by any chance try K-lite at a stronger rate before you switched to 25-10-10?



Lance, no. I saw the plants of eggshells and Paphman and I was encouraged by that to try the 25-10-10. Plus I like the idea of using water straight from tap. From what I read k-lite is best used with a purer source of water.


----------



## gonewild (Jul 21, 2013)

papheteer said:


> Lance, no. I saw the plants of eggshells and Paphman and I was encouraged by that to try the 25-10-10. Plus I like the idea of using water straight from tap. From what I read k-lite is best used with a purer source of water.



OK, I'm just trying to find a valid example of the nitrogen source being the deficiency cause, Nitrate vs Ammonia. In your case since you doubled the Nitrogen and changed the source it does not answer that question.

A few more questions so we can refer back in the future..
1.How long did you use K-lite before switching?
2.Why did you start using K-lite?
3.Before using K-lite did you experience problems with rot or plant loss or insect infestations?
4. After switching to K-lite did you notice less of the above problems/

The reason I ask these questions is because they pertain to the Potassium and Phosphorous part of the fertilizer ratios and whether these two componets are what contribute to poor plant health (obesity). You corrected a nitrogen deficiency by increasing (2x) the nitrogen amount and type. At the same time you have increased the Potassium and Phosphorous 1000% (10x). 

Your plants look good!


----------



## papheteer (Jul 21, 2013)

gonewild said:


> OK, I'm just trying to find a valid example of the nitrogen source being the deficiency cause, Nitrate vs Ammonia. In your case since you doubled the Nitrogen and changed the source it does not answer that question.
> 
> A few more questions so we can refer back in the future..
> 1.How long did you use K-lite before switching?
> ...




Thanks

I used to use MSU. Did get ok results. Nothing spectacular.I switched to K-lite in Oct. 2011. So I used it for almost 6 months. As i have said. It's the combination of crushed oyster shells and nitrate that caused the N deficiency.

Mind you, I still believe that K-lite is the way to go. I just wish they made a version with more ammoniacal N. That would work better with my tap water. That's why I use such a low dose of the 25-10-10. To lessen the P and K that my plants get as well.


----------



## KyushuCalanthe (Jul 21, 2013)

Ooo... Nice Tips!


----------



## gonewild (Jul 21, 2013)

papheteer said:


> Thanks
> As i have said. It's the combination of crushed oyster shells and nitrate that caused the N deficiency.



How do you know the deficiency is from the nitrate source and not form a simple lack of the amount of Nitrogen?



> Mind you, I still believe that K-lite is the way to go. I just wish they made a version with more ammoniacal N. That would work better with my tap water.
> That's why I use such a low dose of the 25-10-10. To lessen the P and K that my plants get as well.



You lessen the amount but not the ratio balance between the nutrients.
When you add back in Calcium Nitrate you are adding Nitrates and also reproducing what the oyster shell influence.

Maybe a better long term approach would be to supplement K-lite with ammonium nitrate and leave off the oyster shell?

I think the nutrient ratio balance may play a bigger role than the reduction of the nutrients. And I'm referring to plant health and disease resistance and not to plant "beauty".

IN Fashion..... skinny models and fat plants. :drool:


----------



## papheteer (Jul 21, 2013)

Here's one more. This was in dire need of repotting!


----------



## Stone (Jul 21, 2013)

Nice roots paphateer:drool:
Most of the writings I've seen seem to indicate the best N ratio is at least 1:1
ammonuim/urea to nitrate. And I believe even better with 50% of the N comming from a wide range of amino acids.
Also read a paper on catasetum given different combinations of the above N souces had the best growth (in vitro) with amino acid glutamine.
All nitrate performed the worst and had the highest sugar content and the lowest chlorophyll!


----------



## papheteer (Jul 21, 2013)

Stone thanks. Interesting stuff about the glutamine. I wanna try it. Do you know if i could use the supplement l-glutamine? If yes, at what rate? Thanks!


----------



## NYEric (Jul 21, 2013)

All nice roots. If you want to practice some more I have a few plant...


----------



## Stone (Jul 21, 2013)

papheteer said:


> Stone thanks. Interesting stuff about the glutamine. I wanna try it. Do you know if i could use the supplement l-glutamine? If yes, at what rate? Thanks!



That was just a controlled lab experiment using one particular amino acid. I think you are better off using a wide range. And the best commercial source I know of comes from a good quality organically FERMENTED fish fertilizer. (not your average fish emulsion which uses heat and god knows what) Check out some of the suppliers of organic fertilizers on the web. The fermentation is important as it uses certain bacteria to brake down the protein into amino acids rather than mineralize into ammonium and nitrates like regular composting. Seaweed also has some but you don't want to use that too often because of the auxins??


----------



## The Orchid Boy (Jul 22, 2013)

Nice plants and awesome roots!

I don't want to take over this thread but I have a question. I have 15 paphs, all but 2 are species. Of all of them, my Paph. sanderianum has the best root system, the roots are growing out the bottom of the pot even. No other paph of mine has roots like that sanderianum. I thought that sanderianum was supposed to be slow and hard to grow, why does it have the best root system?


----------



## papheteer (Jul 22, 2013)

All plants are different. So much variability even among plants from the same flask. Maybe you've got an 'easy' sandie. Take good care of it.


----------



## Stone (Jul 22, 2013)

The Orchid Boy said:


> Nice plants and awesome roots!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## consettbay2003 (Jul 22, 2013)

If supplementing K-Lite with ammonium nitrate is a good idea, how much ammonium nitrate should be used if you are currently using 1/4 tsp. K-Lite/gallon of RO water? Would you do this every time you fertilize with K-Lite? 

Would supplementing with urea be advisable?


----------



## Ozpaph (Jul 22, 2013)

The Orchid Boy said:


> Nice plants and awesome roots!
> 
> I don't want to take over this thread but I have a question. I have 15 paphs, all but 2 are species. Of all of them, my Paph. sanderianum has the best root system, the roots are growing out the bottom of the pot even. No other paph of mine has roots like that sanderianum. I thought that sanderianum was supposed to be slow and hard to grow, why does it have the best root system?



If you have a sandie growing like that DONT CHANGE ANYTHING and tell us all how you do it, thanks.


----------



## paphioboy (Jul 22, 2013)

Just to contribute to the 'porn' page  My old thread (2011) when I was repotting my multifloras (stoneis etc). They have not been repotted since and are going gangbusters now.. 

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23537&highlight=repotting

This is what they look like now..


----------



## orcoholic (Jul 22, 2013)

Can ammonium sulfate be substituted for ammonium nitrate? Ammonium nitrate does not seem to be readily available. Probably because it is used by terrorists to make explosives.


----------



## gonewild (Jul 22, 2013)

consettbay2003 said:


> If supplementing K-Lite with ammonium nitrate is a good idea, how much ammonium nitrate should be used if you are currently using 1/4 tsp. K-Lite/gallon of RO water? Would you do this every time you fertilize with K-Lite?
> 
> Would supplementing with urea be advisable?



Why do you feel the need to supplement?
Are you seeing problems with the K-lite you are using?


----------



## gonewild (Jul 22, 2013)

orcoholic said:


> Can ammonium sulfate be substituted for ammonium nitrate? Ammonium nitrate does not seem to be readily available. Probably because it is used by terrorists to make explosives.



Because Ammonium Sulfate also adds sulfur it is not a direct substitute for Ammonium Nitrate. It depends on what you want to accomplish.


----------



## orcoholic (Jul 22, 2013)

Thanks Lance. 

My only intent is to give more ammoniacal nitrogen. I'll keep the Ms and Ph the same as always, but would like to make the ammoniacal and nitrate nitrogen equal.


----------



## naoki (Jul 24, 2013)

It's great to learn from anecdotes of experienced growers. I was curious about NO3 vs NH4, so I did a bit of reading. There are quite a lot of research in horticulture about the effect of different types of N sources. Some plant species prefer NO3, and others prefer NH4. Some plants don't care. And these two sources of N have opposing effects on rhizosphere pH environment (due to fairly complex physiology). Some plants have an optimum mix of the 2 source. 

The following experiment is not with Paphs, but with Phal hybrid, but there is a pretty dramatic effect.
http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/43/2/350.short
I think the main article is not accessible for everyone (contact me if you need it), so here is the summary.

He grew phal hybrid in 100% sphag or in bark-based mix (i.e two different pH). Then used fertilizer with varying proportion of NO3 (0, 25, 50, 75, 100%). There is a fairly linear relationship between aspects of growth and the increasing NO3. With more NO3, the overall leaf size is larger, time to flowering is shorter. Also # of flowers, flower size, inflorescent length, flower stem diamter is larger with more NO3. In other words, most measurements of short-term performance improves with increased percentage of NO3, and 100% NO3 is the best for this experiment. This occured in both acidic sphag moss media or less acidic bark media.

A couple of caveats are that Phals could be quite different from Paphs. However, in a couple other monocots (Colocasia esculanta and Zea mays), they seem to prefer higher proportion of NO3. Also the experiment uses fairly high concentration of fertilizer. With lower concentrations which most of us are using, the source of N may not have such a dramatic effect.

Also there is something called ammonium toxicity, which is not probably an issue with low concentration. I'm not completely sure about this mechanism, but NH4 does inhibit K absorption in some plants.

Probably these are a part of the reasons why MSU (and K-lite) uses NO3 as N source, right?


----------



## Bjorn (Jul 25, 2013)

Yes, in this paper, phalaenopsis preferred NO3. In the paper below,
http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/content/111/6/1181.abstract
the preference of Cymbidium goeringii was shifted from NO3 to NH4 by the presence of mycorrhizal fungii.
Could it be that the yellowing I have observed with NO3-only nutrition was due to the presence of mycorrhizaes? 
Substituting NO3 with urea (though total N at a lower concentration due to lower ppm) made my plants look much healtier, i.e. greener. 
Previously(100%NO3): N was at approx 35ppm, now with urea it is (37% from NO3+ 63% Urea-N) at N=16ppm. 
The latter gives greener leaves. and growth is adequate (which means as good as before) 
Of course, all irrigation water has nutrients added.
B


----------



## emydura (Jul 25, 2013)

naoki said:


> It's great to learn from anecdotes of experienced growers. I was curious about NO3 vs NH4, so I did a bit of reading. There are quite a lot of research in horticulture about the effect of different types of N sources. Some plant species prefer NO3, and others prefer NH4. Some plants don't care. And these two sources of N have opposing effects on rhizosphere pH environment (due to fairly complex physiology). Some plants have an optimum mix of the 2 source.
> 
> The following experiment is not with Paphs, but with Phal hybrid, but there is a pretty dramatic effect.
> http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/43/2/350.short
> ...



Correct me if I'm wrong, but most people on this forum (Xavier for one) are recommending NH4 but this paper saw better growth when using NO3, although for Phals rather than Paphs. 

Does most people think NH4 is the go for Paphs, and if so, why are MSU and Klite using NO3?


----------



## orcoholic (Jul 25, 2013)

emydura said:


> Does most people think NH4 is the go for Paphs, and if so, why are MSU and Klite using NO3?



I think NH4 is a lot more expensive. Also, Klite was developed by producers of MSU with Ray's input.


----------



## Ray (Jul 25, 2013)

papheteer said:


> I switched to K-lite in Oct. 2011. So I used it for almost 6 months. As i have said. It's the combination of crushed oyster shells and nitrate that caused the N deficiency.


I am way behind on reading this thread, but I do have an issue with that statement, as the first batch of K-Lite was manufactured in December of 2011, and the first jars shipped did not reach the users before January of 2012.

Maybe I missed it, but how does a nitrate nitrogen source plus oyster shell lead to a nitrogen deficiency?


----------



## papheteer (Jul 25, 2013)

Typo ray. It's October 2012. Used it till march of 2013 when noticed plants getting very pale.


----------



## papheteer (Jul 25, 2013)

Ray said:


> I am way behind on reading this thread, but I do have an issue with that statement, as the first batch of K-Lite was manufactured in December of 2011, and the first jars shipped did not reach the users before January of 2012.
> 
> Maybe I missed it, but how does a nitrate nitrogen source plus oyster shell lead to a nitrogen deficiency?



That's what RIck said in a lot of his posts. Nitrate is harder to absorb in more alkaline situations.


----------



## papheteer (Jul 25, 2013)

Ray said:


> I am way behind on reading this thread, but I do have an issue with that statement, as the first batch of K-Lite was manufactured in December of 2011, and the first jars shipped did not reach the users before January of 2012.
> 
> Maybe I missed it, but how does a nitrate nitrogen source plus oyster shell lead to a nitrogen deficiency?




Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leiper's Fork, TN
Posts: 10,209

Quote:
Originally Posted by papheteer 
I have been using k-lite at 1/10 -1/8 tsp per gallon of water. I also supplemented with crushed oyster shells. The one that i got was very powdery. I did notice that after putting it all the root tips stopped growing. I dunno if its coz of that.
If you are using K lite (especially at a weak rate like 1/10 tsp per gal) and add high carbonate potting amendments (like oyster shell) then you are setting yourself up for nitrogen deficiencies. 

K lite nitrogen is nitrate based which is most efficiently used by plants in low alkalinity (low carbonate/bicarbonate) systems. As you increase the root zone alkalinity plants would like to see more ammonia (as from urea). 

What is the alkalinity of your irrigation water? Are you using RO or rain water? If you use tap water, that could already supply enough bicarbonate to require ammonia/urea before the addition of calcareous pot amendments.


----------



## naoki (Jul 25, 2013)

Thanks, Bjorn for the paper. It's interesting. N15 labeled NO3 and NH4 were separately supplied in that experiment, and with mycorrhizae, NH4 uptake increased while NO3 intake didn't increase so much. So mycorrhizae seems to mainly take up NH4 while root by itself is still taking up NO3 more. But it's unlikely that your pot-grown paphs had mycorrhize association, isn't it?

I don't have any explanation to what you observed. But the phal paper is using the size as the perfomance metrics, and it would be interesting if they had detected effects on leaf color (yellow leaf may not necessarily leads to less growth).

David, maybe, Paphs could have quite different preference from Phals. So generalization from Phal experiment could be problematic (and some people here have good experience with NH4). Based on soil-based plant knowledge, there are some advantages of NO3 over NH4. NH4 acidifies media. NH4 reduces the absorption of other cations such as K, Ca and Mg while NO3 has synergistic effect on their absorption (i.e. absorption of NO3 will help absorbing other cations).

With pH vs N absorption, different plants seem to respond differently. Rick knows about this topic better, so hopefully he will correct me if I'm wrong. In general, NH4 absorption is influenced by soil pH in most plants (low pH = low NH4 absorption). NO3 seems to show the opposite pattern in some plants. In other plants, NO3 absorption seems to be unaffected by pH: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1004740204876

The Phal experiment doesn't seem to have a strong support that Phals do better with NH4 in less acidic media (although the pattern is somewhat consistent with this idea). It was a bit of surprise to me.

Again, the pattern could be species specific, so generalization to Paphs may be difficult without an experiment.

As a side note, I found following site (someone's lecture), which goes through basics of roots:
http://ww2.odu.edu/~jrule/Biol695/pdf/3.pdf


----------



## Stone (Jul 25, 2013)

I read that plants from acid habitats have been found to have less nitrate reductase activity and respond better to NH4. Blueberies are an example which grow in very acid conditions (possibly pH 4?) and have almost no reductase and therefore NEED NH4. Most orchids also come from acid habitats. (one sample taken from water running over Odontoglossum roots in Ecuador read pH4) So I think it is resonable to assume that these types of orchids may prefer NH4. With paphs comming from limestone areas where the acidity is modified (a little), perhaps a 50/50 combination of H03 and NH4 is called for? In fact without specific data for specific species, wouldn't it be wize to go 50/50 or something similar? That's what I'm doing at the moment but I'm trying to give half of my total N as amino acids as well.


----------



## Bjorn (Jul 26, 2013)

naoki said:


> Thanks, Bjorn for the paper. It's interesting. N15 labeled NO3 and NH4 were separately supplied in that experiment, and with mycorrhizae, NH4 uptake increased while NO3 intake didn't increase so much. So mycorrhizae seems to mainly take up NH4 while root by itself is still taking up NO3 more. But it's unlikely that your pot-grown paphs had mycorrhize association, isn't it?




Never say never, it has been some time since my last posts on composts, so I do understand your assumptions. I do not know whether I have mycorrhizae in my pots, but I do know that I have other fugii, some of them producing mushrooms. So definitely life down there. Algae and moss and lichen thrive as well. Within reason, I have always attempted to grow in a way that is not too far from nature, that means with moss, ferns etc. I do remove the ferns, but they come and then I remove them when they start to annoy. Mushrooms pop up and I leave them, I have never seen a problem associated with that. To make moss etc. thrive, fertiliser additions have to be kept low, and use of algicides etc. is forbidden. By growing this way, I will never get a collection suited for glossy magazines, but entering my collection gives associations to the jungle. Its a mess, yes, but generally a healthy mess.
I must confess that I do envy those of you that are able to grow in a tidy and clean manner, without moss coming on the substrate and so on. And that is how it looks for me as well when I deflask or pot my flasklings. After a while though, everything full of all these (untidy) life forms. But they are a part of it and I firmly believe that since the orchids have persisted in nature for millions of years, having conditions close to nature cannot be anything but good.


----------



## Stone (Jul 26, 2013)

naoki said:


> > But it's unlikely that your pot-grown paphs had mycorrhize association, isn't it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ALToronto (Jul 26, 2013)

Does anyone know what is the source of N in an organic fish fertilizer (Neptune's Harvest fish and seaweed)? I would think mostly NH4, but does anyone have actual knowledge? 

On another note, those who are growing paphs in dolomite pebbles and watering with K-Lite are starving their plants, correct?


----------



## naoki (Jul 26, 2013)

Bjorn & Mike, I agree that even in meticulously maintained greenhouse, there are tons of microbes. I quickly looked around, but couldn't find any info about mycorrhizal symbiosis in pots. I'll try to remember asking my friend (his research is about fungi/mycorrhizae, and also he studies orchids). I vaguely remember that he said that it isn't so easy to find orchid mycorrhizae in pots, but I might be wrong. A part of my logic was that symbiosis between plant and mycorrhizae is not always mutualistic. http://nau.edu/uploadedFiles/Academic/CEFNS/NATSCI/SESES/Forms/functioningofmycorrhizal.pdf Up to 20% of photosynthates (basically sugar) could be sucked up by fungi. The benefit could be low in the condition where sufficient water and nutrients are provided by human. So if I were an orchid in your greenhouse, I would try to get rid of fungi. This kind of "break-up" happens in rhizobia-legume association (since N-fixation is an extremely costly process).

Spontaneous germination of orchid seed is pretty cool. Isn't fungi for the myco-heterotrophic stage (germination and early seedling) less specific than the symbiotic ones at the adult stage? I can't find where I saw this, so I may be wrong.


Mike's point about pH and reductase activity is interesting (I didn't know about it). It kind of makes sense because bacterial conversion from NH4 to NO3 is much slower in acidic soil (so plants may not be accustomed to lots of NO3).

Mike, the paper linked by Bjorn mentions about N uptake via amino acid (you are interested in providing N in amino acid, right?). It was fairly small without mycorrhizae.


----------



## naoki (Jul 26, 2013)

naoki said:


> Spontaneous germination of orchid seed is pretty cool. Isn't fungi for the myco-heterotrophic stage (germination and early seedling) less specific than the symbiotic ones at the adult stage? I can't find where I saw this, so I may be wrong.



I was wrong about this: Table 2 of
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Studi...nese+orchids+and+their+role+in...-a0229227395

Not a lot of data, but specificity for germination seems to be more specific than at the adult stage.


----------



## Stone (Jul 27, 2013)

naoki said:


> > Mike, the paper linked by Bjorn mentions about N uptake via amino acid (you are interested in providing N in amino acid, right?). It was fairly small without mycorrhizae.[/
> 
> 
> Yes naoki, I saw that paper but look at this one which shows catasetum fimbriatum did better with amino acid (in vitro-no mycorrhiza)
> ...


----------



## Rick (Jul 27, 2013)

Stone said:


> naoki said:
> 
> 
> > Yes naoki, I saw that paper but look at this one which shows catasetum fimbriatum did better with amino acid (in vitro-no mycorrhiza)
> ...


----------



## Rick (Jul 27, 2013)

Stone said:


> naoki said:
> 
> 
> > Yes naoki, I saw that paper but look at this one which shows catasetum fimbriatum did better with amino acid (in vitro-no mycorrhiza)
> ...


----------



## Stone (Jul 27, 2013)

Rick said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > If you look at table 5 part of the reason is there. The pH is down around 4 or less. At that point plants have lots of problems doing anything with ammonia and nitrate. The switch to amino acid is speculated at being an adaptation to operating at very low pH. The species adapted to living in ant nests (many Catesetum, Stanophea, Gongora, Coryanthes...) are commonly associated with ants and low pH substrates. I wouldn't also be surprised if having your roots in an ant nest provides a higher than normal concentration of amino acids too.
> ...


----------



## Stone (Jul 27, 2013)

Rick said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > > The amount of auxin and cytokinins in kelp are so low with respect to the amino acids that you are not going to overdose a plant on kelp.
> ...


----------



## Rick (Jul 28, 2013)

Stone said:


> I have read that too much kelp extracts has caused deformation in some cases. Whether this can be attributed to hormanes, I don't know yet its probably wise to follow the suppliers recommendations to apply it no more than every 10 days to 2 weeks.



I've been using it at 1/4 tsp per gal (0.08X the recommended 10 day dose) about every other day for a couple months now. Before that 1/4 tsp per week. 





Stone said:


> Here is some more evidence that plants from different ecosystems respond differently to ammonium and nitrate according to substrate acidity. It can even vary within one species. Abstract only:
> http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2258043?uid=3737536&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21102498764541



One of the problems just from the abstract is they are growing the plants in non-eco-relevant conditions to make assumptions about the natural condition. You don't see 98ppm of ammonia in the wild (except next to dead things). The Evers and Bogner experiment is a standard toxicity test of ammonia over a very wide pH range. (3.0 to 8.0) . Not only does that change the activity of nitrifiers, but it exponentially changes the chemical state of ammonia from the ionized form to non ionized. At a pH of 8, the relative amount of non-ionized ammonia from a 98ppm total is enough to kill the nitrifiers.


----------

