# Basket culture update 1 year 8 months later



## Rick (Aug 26, 2012)

Ok here's an update and some interesting info after running the basket culture for 1 and 3/4 years.

Some of these plants are from the original start in December 2010/January 2011.










This kolo was one of the first. A virtually rootless 6" seedling, and put it into a 4" basket. Now it has almost a 24" span, 2 new growths, and roots all over. Now two other bigger kolos went into 8 inch baskets and have gone nowhere in comparison. I recently downgraded them into 4 and 6" baskets with a higher percentage of limestone gravel in the mix.


----------



## Rick (Aug 26, 2012)

This henryanum is also one of the originals and has done great. This is its second blooming since going into the basket.





I put two pieces of this badly abused roth (which I've had since 2002) into 6" baskets in Jan 2011. This piece did great. Leaf span is twice what it ever did, several new growths, roots poking out all over. The other piece went nowhere, and I recently downgraded it to a 4"basket. 2 of 3 roth seedlings that went into 4 " baskets are doing good too.


----------



## Rick (Aug 26, 2012)

Phrag wallisii is also one of the originals (maybe by 3/2011). Also has stunningly good. Also getting good results with lindenii in a 4" basket, besseae in a 6" basket, and a kovachii in a 6" basket. My extaminodium started going downhill in its 6" basket after blooming and replanted in a 4" with much more rock.

Here's some pearcie starts I put in a 4" basket.








Regardless of how I've set them up in the past, I've never been able to get divisions of pearcei to start before K-lite. But that's a different part of the equation.


----------



## Rick (Aug 26, 2012)

This big stonei doing great. Two others in 8" baskets are holding their own, but not quite as good. I dumped most of the old moss and replaced with large gravel.





This villosum has been in the basket maybe one year now, but roots coming out all 4 sides and the bottom.


----------



## Stone (Aug 26, 2012)

So far so good! Whats that white **** on the bottom? You may find that you can decrease your feeding to (almost) 0 as the mix in the baskets humifies to dust or, you can give it a good high pressure hose out at the end of the season. I always find it gets things going again after I do it. 
But good growing Rick
I have a gratrix in a basket approaching those sizes.


----------



## Rick (Aug 26, 2012)

Here's a barbata to cover another subgenera. This one has done great as have most of the barbata types. But I do have some stall or show stress, and find that sometimes the roots are poor. So I pull out the old moss and increase the percentage of gravel when I do so.

This may be the clincher.

I checked water chemistry of water I was able to squeeze out of old (1+ year) and new (2 day) moss. And for comparison I have the chemistry of my basic irrigation water.

Irrigation water pH = 7.43, conductivity = 65, hardness = 28, alkalinity = 32
New moss pH = 5.68, conductivity = 299, hardness = 19.2, alkalinity = 22
old moss pH = 7.33, conductivity = 1800!!, hardness = 419!!, alkalinity = 190

With a hardness of 400 and a conductivity of 1800 there must be additional accumulation of potassium and sodium salts to get the conductivity that high. My full strength well water has a hardness of around 400 with a conductivity of 650 to 800. Most of the TDS is from calcium sulfate with the balance calcium and magnesium carbonates. Only 3 mg/L of sodium and potassium was nondetect. So to pick up more than 1000 useimens of conductivity there must be a bunch of monovalent cation in there somewhere.

Contrary to convention, the acidity is not going up with age, but the amount of sequestered salts is pretty amazing. Maybe one of the scary things is that if the moss is sequestering basic salts, its probably sequestering the trace metals to toxic levels too.

A commonality of the plants that are doing good vs the not so good, is the roots coming out of the moss and fully exposed. At that point they can access low salt low micronutrient water I guess.


----------



## Rick (Aug 26, 2012)

Stone said:


> So far so good! Whats that white **** on the bottom? You may find that you can decrease your feeding to (almost) 0 as the mix in the baskets humifies to dust or, you can give it a godd high pressure hose out at the end of the season. I always find it gets things going again after I do it.
> But good growing Rick
> I have a gratrix in a basket approaching those sizes.



That's some kind of fungal growth on the bottom of the peacei basket. It's been there a while and doesn't seem to make a difference to the phrag.

Yes I think I can cut down the feed more, and I have recently started the pressure blasting to get the muck out. 

I'm finding a good correlation to the ones doing good and the ones doing poor, that I need to use more gravel and less moss initially. The moss is still accumulating too much nutrient/salt/metal so if the plants don't bust roots out the side before the moss loads up then things go downhill.


----------



## JeanLux (Aug 27, 2012)

Om., those look superb Rick !!!!! 

Do you think that replacing the sphagnum by fern roots could be an alternative, or do you believe that the moss is needed at the start ? Jean


----------



## SlipperKing (Aug 27, 2012)

Great info Rick. Can you show PICs of some of the ones you think are going downhill? I'll get a better feel for the overall picture.


----------



## Ray (Aug 27, 2012)

I wonder if the moss is, indeed, acidifying with age, but its mineral accumulation has just overwhelmed it.

(this may be a toh-may-toh, toh-mah-toh thing)


----------



## emydura (Aug 27, 2012)

WOW. A kolo that grew from 6 inches to 24 inches in 21 months. That is just incredible. Way quicker than mine.


----------



## Leo Schordje (Aug 27, 2012)

Great successes Rick. I will try to use more baskets myself. I would need to sort out how to change my watering schedule. 

I believe Phrag exstaminodia, more so than its cousins, wants a more acidic pH at its roots. You might try that, and repot often to avoid the salt build ups.


----------



## keithrs (Aug 27, 2012)

I wonder if replacing the moss with straight orchiata would work? Maybe up the watering alittle with it?


----------



## eggshells (Aug 27, 2012)

Do they stay wet like this all the time? In my experience paphs that are in plastic pots. The root tips stops growing when it reaches the top of the pot or the holes in the bottom. I suspect that they detect that its dry and just dries out. I wonder if one grew them wet like these. Will the root tips not dry out even if its exposed to the air.


----------



## Justin (Aug 27, 2012)

That stonei is a BEAST!


----------



## Rick (Aug 27, 2012)

emydura said:


> WOW. A kolo that grew from 6 inches to 24 inches in 21 months. That is just incredible. Way quicker than mine.



I couldn't believe it myself so I went out and measured. I admit I exagerated, it came out to 20" (no stretching).

But it may have actually been less than 6 to start and didn't have any good roots. It was intended as kind of a research last ditch sacrifice plant, but it did way better than 2 healthier plants.


----------



## Rick (Aug 27, 2012)

keithrs said:


> I wonder if replacing the moss with straight orchiata would work? Maybe up the watering alittle with it?



I've replaced a couple of the poor doers in my CHC mix which seems to be fine for a handfull of paphs I didn't change up. The basket is still lined in moss to keep the CHC in. I've resisted the urge to go out and get Orchiata since I have tons of regular bark, CHC, and moss in hand. I may have to water a bit more.

In generall I've increased the amount of limestone gravel in the mix. This is very corse gravel between 1/2" and 1" diameter. I doubt it has any direct effect on chemistry or "calcium" availability. It just there to supply an inert substrate for roots to grow on, that doesn't have ion storage capacity.

I was hoping the moss would just provide water storage with minimal IEC, but it looks like I underestimated the IEC capacity.


----------



## petro (Aug 27, 2012)

That is one happy henryanum! Nice work with all of these.


----------



## Rick (Aug 27, 2012)

eggshells said:


> Do they stay wet like this all the time? In my experience paphs that are in plastic pots. The root tips stops growing when it reaches the top of the pot or the holes in the bottom. I suspect that they detect that its dry and just dries out. I wonder if one grew them wet like these. Will the root tips not dry out even if its exposed to the air.



Things do dry out a bit more than shown in these pics, but air humidity is 70% pretty much at a minimum. Sometimes the tips turn around an go back into the moss too, but the plants that do the best seem to be the ones where the roots are showing.


----------



## Rick (Aug 27, 2012)

JeanLux said:


> Om., those look superb Rick !!!!!
> 
> Do you think that replacing the sphagnum by fern roots could be an alternative, or do you believe that the moss is needed at the start ? Jean



I'm trying some changes now Jean. I don't have a bunch fo fern handy, but I have done a little with shredded leaves from the front yard (after fall leaf drop) and some bark or CHC. Mostly just trying to replace more of the organic with inorganic media.


----------



## Rick (Aug 27, 2012)

SlipperKing said:


> Great info Rick. Can you show PICs of some of the ones you think are going downhill? I'll get a better feel for the overall picture.



I can think of a few things that might help. Mostly its a matter of what something is NOT doing rather than something doing bad (until I dig it up and find the roots went nowhere).

A couple of bad shape loosers did actually die (no pics). A couple of rootless faireanums never did start.

But mostly thngs like the roth where two pieces potted. One takes off the other just sits there. Adds a leaf, drops a leaf. So I get nervous and dig it up to find just a bunch of root nubs going nowhere.


----------



## SlipperFan (Aug 27, 2012)

Rick, you mentioned shredded leaves. Somewhere, I read that oak leaves are best. But there are different kinds of oaks. I wonder if that would make a difference.

Someday I'd like to try growing a paph in ground up oak leaves and either diatomite or PrimeAgra. Someday I'll get brave.


----------



## Brabantia (Aug 28, 2012)

You have very nice plants Rick. And one more time: thank you very much for sharing your culture method and observations. 
The major limitations for that most of the amateurs use your method is the space occupied by the baskets and the opportunities they have to hang these. It seems to me that a good drainage to the pot bottom (crocking,) and a few holes in the pots walls should give the same results? 
About the substrate used: can we use turf mousse mixed with bark and a few perlite or dolomite stones?


----------



## Brabantia (Aug 28, 2012)

Brabantia said:


> You have very nice plants Rick. And one more time: thank you very much for sharing your culture method and observations.
> The major limitations for that most of the amateurs use your method is the space occupied by the baskets and the opportunities they have to hang these. It seems to me that a good drainage to the pot bottom (crocking,) and a few holes in the pots walls should give the same results?
> About the substrate used: can we use turf mousse mixed with bark and a few perlite or dolomite stones?


Sorry, not "turf mousse" but peat mousse. That is what I get when I re-sieved peat with the sieves having meshes of 5 and 10 mm. I obtain small peat balls having a diameter between 5 and 10 mm (1/4" to 3/8"). I like the peat because its hight cation exchange capacity.


----------



## Rick (Aug 28, 2012)

SlipperFan said:


> Rick, you mentioned shredded leaves. Somewhere, I read that oak leaves are best. But there are different kinds of oaks. I wonder if that would make a difference.
> 
> Someday I'd like to try growing a paph in ground up oak leaves and either diatomite or PrimeAgra. Someday I'll get brave.



My front yard has a giant scarlet oak, 2 big white oaks, and a good size black locust. Everything grows over karst/limestone. The leaves are all mixed up, and I don't sort out to the individual species. I also have some cherry and dogwood that might make up a smaller percentage. If I go to the backyard, then I'd end up mixing in some poplar and walnut leaves too. But I just grab what ever is on the ground and shredd it with a blender.


----------



## Rick (Aug 28, 2012)

Brabantia said:


> Sorry, not "turf mousse" but peat mousse. That is what I get when I re-sieved peat with the sieves having meshes of 5 and 10 mm. I obtain small peat balls having a diameter between 5 and 10 mm (1/4" to 3/8"). I like the peat because its hight cation exchange capacity.



The high cation exchange seems to be the crux of the problem for long term use, so I'm decreasing the organic materials (moss) and increasing the inorganics(dolomite gravel).

I think live moss will actually be superior, and whereever it grows the plants apear better. There seems to be a good correlation between the presence of live mosses and when the roots are breaking outside of the baskets. It could be that the live moss is a good indicator of good substrate/water chemistry that is compatible with good root growth. So I always try to seed some live moss with every pot and basket. It's a trend, but not a rule that when the live moss is doing good so are the orchid roots.


----------



## Rick (Aug 28, 2012)

Brabantia said:


> It seems to me that a good drainage to the pot bottom (crocking,) and a few holes in the pots walls should give the same results?



I actually ran some side by side pots of some species set up with identical substrates, but in pots versus baskets. The pots were the aircone pots and some I added more holes too. The baskets were definitely superior in short tem to the pots when moss/gravel was used as the substrate.

However I have had a handful of potted plants in bark or chc mixes that are doing as good or better than a few of the basket counterparts. A couple of spicerianums and a couple of hookerae. But these only started coming around with Klite too.

I would also say for a better comparison I have some compots of "matching" plants that I split a few out into baskets (my keepers) and then the rest into pots of bark/chc mix with drainage crocks. This included a compot of lowii and a compot of mastersianum. The "keepers" are way ahead of the rest and the differences are increasing daily. The potted guys are about average for what I expect now with Klite.






Here's the mastersianum compot




Some lowii from a compot




This is one of those comparisons for Slipperking. This roth was divided into 2 equal size divisions. You can see the one the right has not grown and never developed decent roots. Leaf span is 12". Plant on the left is now multiple divisions with a span of 18".


----------



## Rick (Aug 28, 2012)

BTW Rick, the second from the right mastersianum seedling in basket also got me nervous since it was always wobbly in the moss, and never sent roots out the side like the other 3. So even though the tops looked good, I pulled it up and found nothing but small short root nubs. So changed out the mix.

This is also one of the baskets that I analyzed the water content of the old moss from.


----------



## SlipperKing (Aug 29, 2012)

These last PICs I find very informative Rick. Especially the old moss analysis.

I find the same evidence to be true here in regards to live moss/ plant health vs. old dead moss and plant health.


----------



## Stone (Aug 29, 2012)

Rick, how old are the plants in the first pic of the last set you posted? ( the mottled ones)


----------



## Rick (Aug 29, 2012)

Stone said:


> Rick, how old are the plants in the first pic of the last set you posted? ( the mottled ones)



The mastersianum seedlings are almost 29 months out of flask. The largest seedling has a 12" span.


----------



## Cheyenne (Aug 29, 2012)

You said the ones in the baskets were the "keepers". Does that mean they were the bigger and more vigorous seedling to start with?


----------



## NYEric (Aug 29, 2012)

Are the basket plants getting more light than the potted ones?


----------



## weiweidc (Aug 29, 2012)

Rick
Cam you tell us what is the mix you used in the baskets? How often do you water?


----------



## Rick (Aug 29, 2012)

Cheyenne said:


> You said the ones in the baskets were the "keepers". Does that mean they were the bigger and more vigorous seedling to start with?



Out of flask they were all about the same size, but 2 jumped ahead of the rest (the two on the right) while still in compot. The other 2 in baskets came on later, with the smallest in the basket (on the left) came out of the compot at the same time I moved all of the rest into individual pots.

So on the one hand yes the baskets (in this case) are somewhat selected towards the more vigours seedlings to start with, but given that they are all the same age you're seeing about a 3X difference in size between the older baskets and the smallest potted plant. Which I think is a pretty big exageration of effect for normal within group differences.

Probably another thing to keep in mind that this method was not intended as an optimization project as much as an alternative to problems like root rot and reppoting issues. Without Klite feeding many of these would have flopped without regard for how they are potted. The basket growing actually started a few months prior to Klite and early on in the basket project a lot of these basket plants stopped growing until changing the fertilizer mix.


----------



## Rick (Aug 29, 2012)

NYEric said:


> Are the basket plants getting more light than the potted ones?



They are all within a foot of each other on the bench so the environmental differences should be minimal.


----------



## Rick (Aug 29, 2012)

weiweidc said:


> Rick
> Cam you tell us what is the mix you used in the baskets? How often do you water?



http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18566

weiweidc Try going through this link first. Since this has been a long evolving project you may need to read the whole thing to get your answers.


----------



## Mrs. Paph (Aug 29, 2012)

If you try leaf litter, you may want to double check if walnut leaves would be ok - walnuts have a substance that inhibits the growth of plants around them. I think I remember it being in the roots, but not sure on that. Interesting experiment and comparison shots! Keep the pictures and info coming!


----------



## Rick (Aug 29, 2012)

Mrs. Paph said:


> If you try leaf litter, you may want to double check if walnut leaves would be ok - walnuts have a substance that inhibits the growth of plants around them. I think I remember it being in the roots, but not sure on that. Interesting experiment and comparison shots! Keep the pictures and info coming!



I doubt if I'll be messing with the walnut leaves Mrs Paph. But I think its actually the shell hulls that are something to worry about. Maybe the roots exude something that keep other trees from coming up near them, but I mow anything down that trys to get more than a few inches high under our walnut tree. The grass and other weeds under our walnut do just fine, and I've had orchids mounted on plaques of walnut bark that did fine too. The oak and locust in the front yard are more than enough to keep me in stock of leaf litter.


----------



## Mrs. Paph (Aug 29, 2012)

Good to know about the mounts - and yes, it would make more sense for the substance to be in the shells and or roots so that other things wouldn't take too much of the water and nutrients right around the tree. I've also grown things like roses and tomatoes not That from from a black walnut tree and grass grew fine, so they don't ooze massive amounts of the substance in any case lol


----------



## ChrisFL (Sep 3, 2012)

Rick said:


> Here's a barbata to cover another subgenera. This one has done great as have most of the barbata types. But I do have some stall or show stress, and find that sometimes the roots are poor. So I pull out the old moss and increase the percentage of gravel when I do so.
> 
> This may be the clincher.
> 
> ...



Sorry if this has been covered already Rick, but your it appears you're actually sequestering alkalinity/buffer. An alkalinity of 22 to 190 is a HUGE change and denotes sequestration/retention/presence of proton up-taking ions. But, obviously, these need counter ions, and without a trace metal analysis, we can't know what they are, but you can make an assumption that they are whatever is in the fertilizer.


----------



## eaborne (Sep 22, 2012)

Rick,
I would like to try to pot a few phrags and paphs in the baskets. What mix do I put in the basket? Do you line it first with sphagnum, then put a mix in the middle? I have many media here to try and was wondering what you suggest. I have diatomite, PrimeAgra clay pellets, orchiata, sponge rock, charcoal, live moss, and sphagnum moss. I can only water every few days though. What do you recommend I try? Thanks for the advice.


----------



## billc (Sep 22, 2012)

Rick said:


> I think live moss will actually be superior, and whereever it grows the plants apear better. There seems to be a good correlation between the presence of live mosses and when the roots are breaking outside of the baskets. It could be that the live moss is a good indicator of good substrate/water chemistry that is compatible with good root growth. So I always try to seed some live moss with every pot and basket. It's a trend, but not a rule that when the live moss is doing good so are the orchid roots.



I don't know the chemistry behind it but I find that my plants that somehow have live moss thriving on the top in the media are always more robust than the plant right next to them. It's especially evident in masdies. Anytime I see a well grown masdie, the live moss is thriving. I think you're onto something Rick. 

Bill


----------



## eaborne (Sep 22, 2012)

billc said:


> I don't know the chemistry behind it but I find that my plants that somehow have live moss thriving on the top in the media are always more robust than the plant right next to them. It's especially evident in masdies. Anytime I see a well grown masdie, the live moss is thriving. I think you're onto something Rick.
> 
> Bill



Don't you have to keep the media wet at all times for the moss to grow? If I don't, then the moss dies. I have a two phrags with moss growing on the top of the medium, but they stay wet and are definately not thriving. The wetter I keep things, the more they suffer and get rot.


----------



## billc (Sep 22, 2012)

The humidity may have something to do with it, I try to keep it at 65-75 in my basement tent area.The humidifier runs for 15 minutes every hour and a quarter and when it's on the RH gets up to 85-90. I went down and looked and the plants I have in CHC have more moss than the ones I've repotted this year into Orciata. Some ot the plants in S/H have some moss but they get watered more frequently.

Bill


----------



## Rick (Sep 24, 2012)

You might want to jump over to the thread I started on TDS/conductivity measurement in the potting mix.

Salt accumulation in whatever media looks to be a good correlation to the moss growth. So the live moss may be an indicator rather than providing anything special to the plants.


----------



## SlipperKing (Sep 24, 2012)

I had a chance to see Rick's culture techniques first hand last Friday evening and it was impressive. What I came away with and Rick has already touched on is live moss equals healthy plants. How can that be achieved one asks? Seedling local mosses from your own area appears to work well. I've seen several different species of moss accomplish the same end results, healthy slippers. Now, a secondary question; how to grow the moss? From what Rick demonstrated with his conductivity meter and what has become clear to me is flush, flush and then flush more! I'm at the mind set now to water with straight rain water 3, 4 or more times then fertilize weakly, 50-60 ppm then repeat the flushing.
We finished the night off with a great steak dinner for his BIRTHDAY(!)at one of his local eateries. Then he guided me out of the thickets of Tennessee back to civilization to continue my journey back to Pearland, Texas.


----------



## keithrs (Sep 24, 2012)

I will say that I have not flushed with plain water more than 6 or so times since starting k-lite(in fact I almost out) and I have no problem growing moss in pots or on mounts.


----------



## eaborne (Sep 25, 2012)

SlipperKing said:


> I had a chance to see Rick's culture techniques first hand last Friday evening and it was impressive. What I came away with and Rick has already touched on is live moss equals healthy plants.
> 
> 
> > I bet that was a great learing experience! Sounds like your trip went well!


----------



## Rick (Sep 25, 2012)

keithrs said:


> I will say that I have not flushed with plain water more than 6 or so times since starting k-lite(in fact I almost out) and I have no problem growing moss in pots or on mounts.



That's actually a higher rate of flushing than me (by quite a bit too!!!). Plus the use of a low K fert has essentially increased the total amount of salt that can go into a system without it becoming toxic.

Plants (and mosses) can handle much higher concentrations of divalent cations than monovalents.

But without the use of a TDS meter its hard to gauge how much flushing is needed to keep a stable low TDS safe for your plants. Moss on mounts and in pots may be a faster/better indicator (the "canary in a coal mine") once you find that good balance of feeding vs flushing.

Mounts (by lack of substrate) don't accumulate much salt in comparison to pots, so I've rarely had problems with mounted plants. But most of us rarely keep Paphs and Phrags mounted so the salt concentration issues/moss growth are really more of a pot/basket problem.


----------



## Rick (Sep 25, 2012)

eaborne said:


> Rick,
> I would like to try to pot a few phrags and paphs in the baskets. What mix do I put in the basket? Do you line it first with sphagnum, then put a mix in the middle? I have many media here to try and was wondering what you suggest. I have diatomite, PrimeAgra clay pellets, orchiata, sponge rock, charcoal, live moss, and sphagnum moss. I can only water every few days though. What do you recommend I try? Thanks for the advice.



I tried a lot of things at first, but its coming closer to:

Moss lined followd by a mix of 75% large driveway limestone gravel, 20% more moss, 5% mix of sand and "Cichlid Sand". Live moss is great addition if you have it.

Many of the baskets with clay pellet or ball type media didn't work out too well. As it turned out the clay balls concentrate salts the way I water/feed.

I have a few baskets where I replaced some of the salty moss with bark or CHC mix, but I upped the amount of limestone gravel too.


----------



## Jim Toomey (Sep 25, 2012)

Hi Rick!
Dimensions of the large driveway limestone gravel?
Thanks,
Jim T


----------



## Stone (Sep 25, 2012)

The trouble with gravel is that its not a good mixer with moss. ie; its weight will tend to settle it (the moss) over a short time thereby compacting the mix and reducing air-filled porosity and all the negatives that go along with that.
I found its better to stick with similar density or weighted materials when making up a mix so you can increase its life. 
For me things like moss, granulated polystyrene, t/fern, leaf mold and chc work well together without too much compaction.
Whereas stones, bark, gravel, leca, charcoal also combine and you can tweek it with a few strands of moss here and there.
Although charcoal and polystyrene work with anything.
Rick, have you tried moss + polystyrene? though you need to water more (which could be a good thing)


----------



## Rick (Sep 25, 2012)

Jim Toomey said:


> Hi Rick!
> Dimensions of the large driveway limestone gravel?
> Thanks,
> Jim T



about 1 inch diameter. It's very large and angular so there are large spaces for air/moss/roots/sand to accumulate. It doesn't compact.

I don't think it contributes much to chemistry, and its certainly too dense to hold up any water or salts on its own.


----------



## Rick (Sep 25, 2012)

Stone said:


> The trouble with gravel is that its not a good mixer with moss. ie; its weight will tend to settle it (the moss) over a short time thereby compacting the mix and reducing air-filled porosity and all the negatives that go along with that.
> I found its better to stick with similar density or weighted materials when making up a mix so you can increase its life.
> For me things like moss, granulated polystyrene, t/fern, leaf mold and chc work well together without too much compaction.
> Whereas stones, bark, gravel, leca, charcoal also combine and you can tweek it with a few strands of moss here and there.
> ...



Would all be true Mike if the particle size was fairly small. Maybe on the order of 5mm or less. But this gravel is big (~25mm) and angular so it doesn't shift and settle when watering. 

I've used polystyrene peanuts under bark mixes (primarily for Catts). It really is just about the same as big shards of busted up clay pot. Lots of drainage and air. But the rock is very dense and non absorbent. I'm finding the plants really don't need that much water retentive mix around their roots. Especially if it sponges up a lot of excess fertilizer.


----------



## Stone (Sep 25, 2012)

Ok,.... I look at gravel as being less than around 5mm.


----------



## SlipperFan (Sep 26, 2012)

Rick said:


> about 1 inch diameter. It's very large and angular so there are large spaces for air/moss/roots/sand to accumulate. It doesn't compact. ...



Where do you get limestone gravel that large???


----------



## Rick (Sep 26, 2012)

SlipperFan said:


> Where do you get limestone gravel that large???



From my drivewayoke:oke:

Middle TN is nothing but a big limestone quarry. There's at least 2 within 10 miles of my house. Between the road beds, concrete manufacture, driving ways....its everywhere. I recently had a truckload dump a new load for my driveway, so when I need a handful for a few pots I just go out front and take it out of the driveway.


----------



## keithrs (Sep 26, 2012)

Granite works as well.... Well, Maybe not *as well*.... 

I would recommend buying washed rock of what ever kind....


----------



## keithrs (Sep 26, 2012)

I'm curious why you have not tried larger baskets? How are you going to treat the baskets you have now when the plants out grow the baskets? 

How do you think paphs like armeniacum or godefroyae would grow in plain limestone? Maybe with a small top dressing of seedling bark.


----------



## Roth (Sep 27, 2012)

Stone said:


> Rick, have you tried moss + polystyrene? though you need to water more (which could be a good thing)



The way to go to aerate a mix and prevent compaction is not polystyren at all, but use polyurethan soft foam ( like the thing used to fill the pillows...). In Europe it is very popular amongst pot plant growers under the name of Oxygrow or Aggrofoam, and very efficient. It retains some water too, but drains quickly, and prevents absolutely any compaction of the mix. I used it with peat based mix years ago...


----------



## Rick (Sep 27, 2012)

keithrs said:


> Granite works as well.... Well, Maybe not *as well*....
> 
> I would recommend buying washed rock of what ever kind....



The granite would probably be just as good.

The rain washes my driveway, so its good to go.


----------



## Rick (Sep 27, 2012)

keithrs said:


> I'm curious why you have not tried larger baskets? How are you going to treat the baskets you have now when the plants out grow the baskets?
> 
> How do you think paphs like armeniacum or godefroyae would grow in plain limestone? Maybe with a small top dressing of seedling bark.




I did use a mix of large versus small baskets earlier on, and a smaller proportion of the plants that went into large baskets are doing good too. It seems to revolve around the amount of salt retaining materials that go into the basket that make it work. If you put a small plant in a large basket then make sure that the basket is mostly filled with rock rather than moss.

I have a kolo seedling that went into a 4" basket, and now getting too big for that, so I slipped the 4" into a moss lined 6", and it seems to be moving roots into that space. Ultimately the wooden baskets will decompose enough to bust out sides for additional growths.


----------



## Cheyenne (Sep 27, 2012)

While were on the subject of moss. Sometimes it is hard to get it to get going in the first place, so you can take moss off another mount and try to transplant it to make it grow in another pot. Alternatively I was looking on the bonsai sites and they sell moss spores for bonsai culture. Bonsai always have such nice moss growing. You just sprinkle some on the media and it will start growing. It says it will keep good as long as you keep it in the envelope it comes in so you can store it. If anyone is interested.


----------



## keithrs (Sep 27, 2012)

Rick said:


> The granite would probably be just as good.
> 
> The rain washes my driveway, so its good to go.




One thing about rock is that it is soooo heavy!!! When you start getting into 8" basket range, your looking at about 15 pounds or more of rock.


----------



## keithrs (Sep 27, 2012)

Cheyenne said:


> While were on the subject of moss. Sometimes it is hard to get it to get going in the first place, so you can take moss off another mount and try to transplant it to make it grow in another pot. Alternatively I was looking on the bonsai sites and they sell moss spores for bonsai culture. Bonsai always have such nice moss growing. You just sprinkle some on the media and it will start growing. It says it will keep good as long as you keep it in the envelope it comes in so you can store it. If anyone is interested.



Yep... I have also been looking at bonsai stores for spores. Once you get a good size population going in a greenhouse. It will start to multiply it's self fairly fast.


----------



## keithrs (Sep 27, 2012)

Rick said:


> From my drivewayoke:oke:
> 
> Middle TN is nothing but a big limestone quarry. There's at least 2 within 10 miles of my house. Between the road beds, concrete manufacture, driving ways....its everywhere. I recently had a truckload dump a new load for my driveway, so when I need a handful for a few pots I just go out front and take it out of the driveway.



Soon your going have a muddy mess of a drivewayoke:


----------



## Rick (Sep 27, 2012)

keithrs said:


> One thing about rock is that it is soooo heavy!!! When you start getting into 8" basket range, your looking at about 15 pounds or more of rock.




Yes put the baskets never tip over:wink:

If I end up hanging them, then I'll need to be concerned that the cross beams in the GH can handle the weight.


----------



## Rick (Sep 27, 2012)

keithrs said:


> Soon your going have a muddy mess of a drivewayoke:




Ha!! Well to use that much gravel I'd probably have to quadruple the size of my paph collection in the next year, and I don't think the GH is going to fit that.


----------



## SlipperFan (Sep 27, 2012)

Rick said:


> From my drivewayoke:oke:
> 
> Middle TN is nothing but a big limestone quarry. There's at least 2 within 10 miles of my house. Between the road beds, concrete manufacture, driving ways....its everywhere. I recently had a truckload dump a new load for my driveway, so when I need a handful for a few pots I just go out front and take it out of the driveway.


Interesting! I've seen crushed stones of that size, but not driveway gravel.


----------



## eaborne (Sep 30, 2012)

Rick said:


> I tried a lot of things at first, but its coming closer to:
> 
> Moss lined followd by a mix of 75% large driveway limestone gravel, 20% more moss, 5% mix of sand and "Cichlid Sand". Live moss is great addition if you have it.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your suggestions Rick!


----------



## Leo Schordje (Oct 1, 2012)

keithrs said:


> Yep... I have also been looking at bonsai stores for spores. Once you get a good size population going in a greenhouse. It will start to multiply it's self fairly fast.



Cheap and easy source of good fine moss. "Crack in the Sidewalk Moss". I know you are in a dry climate, but look for an area where there is a sidewalk that is always shaded, say north walk along a tall building. Glance down at the expansion joints, & the cracks. If there is an often watered patch of lawn near by, you might get lucky and find some. Here in the midwest it is everywhere. This is the most commonly used moss by bonsai people in the US. It becomes a thin mat once established in a pot. Tear up the harvested moss into little pieces, scatter over the surface you want to propagate it on, then cover with a thin layer of the same media, then water. 

I keep a seedling flat growing nothing but 'sidewalk moss', it is planted with the fines from my bonsai soil. The entire flat becomes covered with moss, I am able to harvest part or all about every 2 months. If you take off a thin layer, the layer beneath does not have to be re-seeded, or re-colonized from the other side of the flat, the 'roots' (not botanically correct term for mosses) will form a new mat, the green visible in a week or less. 

Just a thought.


----------



## keithrs (Oct 1, 2012)

Leo Schordje said:


> Cheap and easy source of good fine moss. "Crack in the Sidewalk Moss". I know you are in a dry climate, but look for an area where there is a sidewalk that is always shaded, say north walk along a tall building. Glance down at the expansion joints, & the cracks. If there is an often watered patch of lawn near by, you might get lucky and find some. Here in the midwest it is everywhere. This is the most commonly used moss by bonsai people in the US. It becomes a thin mat once established in a pot. Tear up the harvested moss into little pieces, scatter over the surface you want to propagate it on, then cover with a thin layer of the same media, then water.
> 
> I keep a seedling flat growing nothing but 'sidewalk moss', it is planted with the fines from my bonsai soil. The entire flat becomes covered with moss, I am able to harvest part or all about every 2 months. If you take off a thin layer, the layer beneath does not have to be re-seeded, or re-colonized from the other side of the flat, the 'roots' (not botanically correct term for mosses) will form a new mat, the green visible in a week or less.
> 
> Just a thought.



That's great to know... And thanks for letting us know!


----------



## eggshells (Oct 1, 2012)

Some people make a moss shake, moss, yogurt and milk. then spread it all over where they want to grow it.


----------



## SlipperFan (Oct 1, 2012)

eggshells said:


> Some people make a moss shake, moss, yogurt and milk. then spread it all over where they want to grow it.



Do you have a formula? Or doesn't it matter?


----------



## eggshells (Oct 1, 2012)

SlipperFan said:


> Do you have a formula? Or doesn't it matter?



http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/how-to-grow-you-119033

Just buy a used blender through salvation army or thrift store.


----------



## NYEric (Oct 2, 2012)

Leo Schordje said:


> Cheap and easy source of good fine moss. "Crack in the Sidewalk Moss".
> 
> Just a thought.



Hahhahhahahhhahaaaahhah-huh!


----------



## SlipperFan (Oct 2, 2012)

eggshells said:


> http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/how-to-grow-you-119033
> 
> Just buy a used blender through salvation army or thrift store.


Thanks! I have an old blender I never use anymore -- this will give me a good excuse to buy a new one, also!

I will try this, but maybe not until Spring since our non-freezing weather is just about over.


----------



## cnycharles (Oct 2, 2012)

a moss smoothie - who would have thought.....


----------



## limuhead (Jan 27, 2013)

Very interesting information; thanks to all who contributed. I think that I am going to hang some Phrags in hydroponic baskets w/orchidata and #5 perlite mix. I have found that when the roots grow through the holes in the basket(on my cats and dens) it is easier to cut the basket and repot then to try to untangle them. I think sacrificing a basket that costs $1.50 is worth it considering what a good Phrag costs nowadays...
Mahalo!


----------



## dodidoki (Jan 27, 2013)

That is incredible, especially Kolo progression!
Many thanks for sharing!


----------



## dodidoki (Jan 27, 2013)

By the way: you wrote you use CHC. I tried few years ago, my experience was that at the beginning my plants loved, there were many new roots but after a while plants suddenly died without any visible reason. Now I know tha reason was maybe K, I used normal, available NPK formulas and someone said, that CHC can accumulate salts very quickly.


----------



## Rick (Jan 27, 2013)

dodidoki said:


> By the way: you wrote you use CHC. I tried few years ago, my experience was that at the beginning my plants loved, there were many new roots but after a while plants suddenly died without any visible reason. Now I know tha reason was maybe K, I used normal, available NPK formulas and someone said, that CHC can accumulate salts very quickly.



Yes it exchanges Ca for K quite efficiently.

I restarted playing with CHC a year or so ago, but with low K and TDS monitoring (heavy flushing with low TDS water). The plants in CHC are doing just fine.

The kolo are doing even better today. The one on the first page had roots coming out all over so I stuck it (basket and all) in a larger basket, and it continues to grow. I was just looking at my P tonsum and it has monster thick roots coming out all over (still in 4" basket though).

I put a 9" kovachii seedling in a basket a year ago and now the original growth is shed, but it has 2 growths with over 12" leafspan.


----------



## Ozpaph (Jan 27, 2013)

eggshells said:


> Some people make a moss shake, moss, yogurt and milk. then spread it all over where they want to grow it.



Wont the yoghurt go off and smell and grow fungus???


----------



## The Orchid Boy (Jan 30, 2013)

I've heard of people doing the moss shake thing with moss and buttermilk in a blender then paint it on. I haven't heard of the stuff growing fungus or mold...


----------



## myxodex (Feb 10, 2013)

Amazing results Rick, and very informative. I guess I can conclude that paph roots have a higher oxygen requirement than I would have guessed, ... or at least the "micro-ecology" of the potting mix does. As for sphag acidification, I was told by someone working on the poor nutrient bogs in the mountains of Wales that sphagnum moss contains a lot of polyanionic carbohydrate in order to hang on to the scarce cationic nutrients. I've wondered whether the acidication from sphag is just the result metal ions substituting for H+, which would then get saturated (CEC used up) after a period of feeding.


----------



## Rick (Feb 10, 2013)

May be difficult to generalize for all slipper species. Some of the cliff dwellers have roots totally exposed like any other epithetic plant. A handful are epiphytic in trees, but generally accumulate small amounts of debris around the roots. Many of the species in "soil" are on steep inclines that afford very good drainage, but still have almost constant seeping water flowing by.

I'm not sure if it's the aeration that makes this system work, or the lack of the accumulation of salts/metals. Baskets tend to force more watering (like mounted plants), but it was still noticeable before implementing low K that salt accumulation was still going to be an issue. So increased flushing with low K water seems to be equally important.


----------

