# Cypripedium fasciculatum



## Berthold (Nov 18, 2015)

I could get a plant for some tests. 
Is there any experience in cultivating this species in the garden outside the natural habitat with its complete microbiological environment?

The natural habitat shall be light acid pure organic needle substrate in light shade. But that is only the chemical and physical characteristic not the biological including fungi and other micro-organisms. 

I fear, a non symbiotic in situ culture in the garden will be very difficult.


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## dodidoki (Nov 18, 2015)

Very rare indeed, have a good luck with this!


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## KyushuCalanthe (Nov 18, 2015)

Bill Steele has successfully grown and flowered this species from seed, so he may be the one to ask. It should respond to conditions similar to C. montanum. Growing it in the ground will be a death sentence IMO.


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## cyprimaniac (Nov 21, 2015)

What is the intention to find out with your tests?

How did you get CITES and import permission 
to import the rhizom legally to Germany.

The rhizom does not look so nice after transport,
and somewhat like digged from the wild.

But I would recommend to plant the rhizom in NEUDOHUM.
Even if people say, there are "protecting fungus" in the mixture.
Neudorf Co. says thats not true.


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## cyprimaniac (Dec 26, 2015)

cyprimaniac said:


> What is the intention to find out with your tests?



hey guys,
no answers from Bert so far. Why is he "so silent" ??

Now I just heared the "expected" result of tests:

*THE RHIZOM ROTTED.*

I am so sorry about that. 

But its true, what my buddy Patrick from WA always says:
never dig fasciculatum from the wild,
*"it is bound to die"
*(even if you plant it in "Neudohum"-soil)

Merry Christmas! to all of you.


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## NYEric (Dec 26, 2015)

The only person who never failed, never tried.


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## Berthold (Dec 27, 2015)

Yes, Eric, we have to do more research on the fungi at the original habitat of the plant which protect the plant against attacks of bacteria by antibiotics.

If we are out of luck these fungi can only exist on living roots of trees. Then we have the same problem as we have with the European orchid Cephalanthera damasonium, Limodorum abortivum or Neottia nidus-avis .
We are unable to cultivate this fungus in pots.

The other way is to sow the species and select more robust individuals. But that takes 2 generations at least (8 to 10 years) and we are no longer the youngest human beings.
For sowing we need green pods for good germination but it is difficult to get access to it in Germany.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Dec 27, 2015)

Fungi aside, I can't say I am surprised at the result given the condition of the plant. Some Cyps seem to respond OK to mistreatment (notably ones in subsection Cypripedium), while others don't transplant well even if they are carefully collected, transported, etc. Go figure.

Still, such plants are often the way in which new species are introduced into the hobby. This species I'd imagine will be a tough one to keep longterm - perhaps much like C. lichiangense - only for the diehard terrestrial growers with very high skill and a fair bit of luck too.

Too bad seed isn't more easily available. I'm going to guess this species is rare in cultivation even within its native range, which says something.


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## Berthold (Dec 27, 2015)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> Some Cyps seem to respond OK to mistreatment (notably ones in subsection Cypripedium), while others don't transplant well even if they are carefully collected, transported, etc.
> ..
> This species I'd imagine will be a tough one to keep longterm - perhaps much like C. lichiangense - only for the diehard terrestrial growers with very high skill and a fair bit of luck too.


You have the same problem with this species as with the species completely free of chlorophyll like Neottia nidus avis. Cypripedium passerinum and irapeanum is similar.

A very hight skill doesn't help You. First You have to keep alive the fungus and You can train on truffle.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Dec 28, 2015)

Berthold said:


> A very hight skill doesn't help You. First You have to keep alive the fungus and You can train on truffle.



Not to argue, but how did Bill Steele successfully grow and flower this species from seed without a fungal symbiont? See the flowering plant here:
http://www.spanglecreeklabs.com/photoga2.html

I was pen-pals with him back in the late 90's and he said growing this one from seed was tricky, but he never mentioned using a fungal symbiont in the compost. I might add that he grew and flowered this plant in Minnesota, not Washington state, far away from any fungi native to its homelands. 

Thoughts?


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## Berthold (Dec 28, 2015)

May be he has the fungi in his substrate he picked up in the garden or near by. I think he will not sterilize the substrate before use.
May be he has different microorganisms in his garden the plants are used to and are resistant. But in Europe we have a different collection of fungi and microorganisms in nature.
Under (nearly) sterile condition it should be possible to grow fasciculatum in Europe also. That is demonstrated with Cypripedium irapeanum. 

It is possible to sow some European orchid species (for example Dactylorhiza and Ophrys) in pot and have germination non sterile. That means, the necessary germinator fungus lives in the pot substrate. But You need an laboratory equipment to verify the fungus in the substrate because of very thin fungi hyphens.


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## cyprimaniac (Dec 28, 2015)

Oh, Oh its so interesting hearing Berthold to lecture 
about sowing and growing orchids.
How stupid we are.............
*Thank you Berthold.
*
But I think that Berthold suffers a severe illness,
which is called FUNGIMANIA
and it is differrent from "bigfoot" fungus





*OK, to be honest.*
everybody in this forum knows.
that Cypripediums and other orchids 
can be sown asymbiotically in the lab.
and that also adult Cypripediums do NOT need 
necessarily any fungus to grow.

possibly the environmental conditions are not OK,
humidity, temperature, light, soil PH, etc.

BUT sometimes there seem to be specimen, which are 
"a little bit sensitive" against some microbacteria and fungi
AND THESE CANNOT BE CULTIVATED!!
SO EASY IS IT!


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## Berthold (Dec 28, 2015)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> Not to argue, but how did Bill Steele successfully grow and flower this species from seed without a fungal symbiont? See the flowering plant here:
> http://www.spanglecreeklabs.com/photoga2.html
> 
> I was pen-pals with him back in the late 90's and he said growing this one from seed was tricky, but he never mentioned using a fungal symbiont in the compost. I might add that he grew and flowered this plant in Minnesota, not Washington state, far away from any fungi native to its homelands.
> ...



The 3. possibility of course is that there is a selection based on a little genetic variation. I can imagine that 1 of 100 seedlings is more resistant against attacks of bacteria and can come to flower in a pot. 
We have such plants of Cypripedium montanum now in Europe which are pretty easy in cultivation and do not rot any longer so fast.


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## dodidoki (Dec 28, 2015)

cyprimaniac said:


> Oh, Oh its so interesting hearing Berthold to lecture
> about sowing and growing orchids.
> How stupid we are.............
> *Thank you Berthold.
> ...



I think it is only question of good luck. This man grow this sp as good as possible, but this plant never met any pathogenes.


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## Berthold (Dec 28, 2015)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> Fungi aside, I can't say I am surprised at the result given the condition of the plant.



There was done a lot of research about orchid mycorrhiza. 

So the transport of substances from the orchid via the hyphen of the fungus into the roots of a living tree was monitored by radioactive marked elements.

Then a plant (Cephalanthera damasonium) was excavated at natural habitat without injure the root system. Then the plant was buried again very close to the old place, only 10 feet away. And the plant rotted within next 6 months. 
The assumption is that the connection to the fungi was interrupted by the replanting and the plant was no longer able to protect itself against infections due to missing antibiotics from the fungus.

I found similar effects by replanting Himantoglossum hircinum in the garden. Plant was moved for 3 feet only and it died


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## KyushuCalanthe (Dec 29, 2015)

Thanks for your ideas Berthold.


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