# mexipedium hybrids?



## eteson (Jan 25, 2015)

Old topic I know.
But... should I try to cross it with Phrags.


----------



## NYEric (Jan 25, 2015)

Yes.


----------



## eteson (Jan 26, 2015)

I know that Robert and also Marylin got viable seed and even germination...but the seedlings were very poor growers.... does anyone know about more recent attempts?


----------



## phrag guy (Jan 26, 2015)

I have tried and I know Jean-Pierre has tried ,with no success


----------



## tomkalina (Jan 26, 2015)

We tried crossing it with Mem. Dick Clements years ago and got a small number seedlings, but they all died within two weeks of deflasking. I think Marilyn had similar results.


----------



## John Boy (Jan 26, 2015)

This question is as old, as the Species itself. Many times did we hear the "I've got seedlings X XYZ", but noone has produced plants, that were viable enough to survive deflasking. It's about the same a the debate about crossing Paphiopedilum X Phragmipedium. 

In my oppinion the first thing to overcome would be the question of pollen bio-mass. Anyone who has ever pollinated a Mexipedium flower knows... a Mexipedium pollen isn't much more than a dust particle. So, in order to pollinate a flower 50x the size of a Mexipedium flower.... how many Mexipedium pollen would we need, in order to make the Phragmipedium flower realise...."hey, I've just been pollinated"?!
Here are some shots I took when I last had a Mexipedium capsule available:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8733721391/

I did keep the capsule, in order to do a scale-shot like this one:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8733719285/


----------



## eteson (Jan 26, 2015)

Thanks for your answers, sounds like a mission Imposible but since it is possible to get seedlings... I should try!

_In order to succeed, your desire for success should be greater than your fear of failure.

Bill Cosby_


----------



## gonewild (Jan 26, 2015)

eteson said:


> Thanks for your answers, sounds like a mission Imposible but since it is possible to get seedlings... I should try!



Don't try crossing with hybrids. Use your new Columbian species which probably have not been tried with mexipedium yet.

But definitely try!


----------



## gonewild (Jan 26, 2015)

John Boy said:


> In my oppinion the first thing to overcome would be the question of pollen bio-mass. Anyone who has ever pollinated a Mexipedium flower knows... a Mexipedium pollen isn't much more than a dust particle. So, in order to pollinate a flower 50x the size of a Mexipedium flower.... how many Mexipedium pollen would we need, in order to make the Phragmipedium flower realise...."hey, I've just been pollinated"?!



This is not an issue with mass or volume of pollen. The tiny mexi pollen probably has as many pollen grains as a bigger flower species.

The problem is physical size of the pollen. In order for the male gametes to fertilize the female egg the gamete grows a tube from the physical location of the pollen grain into the ovary to the physical location of the egg.

The incompatibility problem with flower size is because when pollen of a small species is placed on a flower of a larger species the small species pollen can not grow a pollen tube long enough to reach the egg in the large flowers ovary. The solution is to use the large flower pollen on the small flower so the pollen tubes can reach the egg. I don't know if pollen tube diameter is an issue or not?

At least this was the solution many years ago, and it seemed to prove true.


----------



## PaphMadMan (Jan 26, 2015)

Just some thoughts from a classic non-orchid plant breeding perspective...

I have heard that pollen tube diameter can be a problem, but pollen tube length is a well known problem in plant breeding in general. Big flower pollen onto small flower is usually the way to go. In other plants there have been cases were the style was surgically shortened and reconnected to accommodate short pollen tubes.

There was advice to avoid crossing with hybrids. I can understand that philosophy, but there are also cases in other plants where a fertile vigorous primary hybrid is more receptive to foreign pollen than a species, or hybrid pollen is less fastidious in its requirements for a stigma.

Seeds that germinate but don't survive might mean that the right conditions haven't been found, or the 2 gene pools are contributing mutually exclusive requirements. There is some chance that one tetraploid parent would predominate enough to get past that point (not the best case for further fertility though), or tetraploids on both sides might find a balance that diploids don't have.


----------



## eteson (Jan 27, 2015)

Thank you so much. Lets see if I can get more than empty pods.


----------



## cnycharles (Jan 27, 2015)

I had not thought that phrags and paphs had been crossed successfully, but when I was looking at pictures in nyerics phrag book created by Olaf gruss there are several pictures of flowers that were purportedly offspring of paph x phrag crosses; the parents were listed and they do generally look like mixes of the two different parents. If it weren't true I don't know that Olaf would go to the time and effort not to mention great expense and chance of injury to his reputation. But the book is written in German which I can't read so maybe there is an explanation I don't know about


----------



## polyantha (Jan 27, 2015)

I didn't know that phrag x mexi crosses have been produced to a size to be deflasked.


----------



## eteson (Jan 27, 2015)

No way! The plants in Olaf book are pure Paphs... how could so different crosses give results so similar?


----------



## gonewild (Jan 27, 2015)

cnycharles said:


> I had not thought that phrags and paphs had been crossed successfully, but when I was looking at pictures in nyerics phrag book created by Olaf gruss there are several pictures of flowers that were purportedly offspring of paph x phrag crosses; the parents were listed and they do generally look like mixes of the two different parents. If it weren't true I don't know that Olaf would go to the time and effort not to mention great expense and chance of injury to his reputation. But the book is written in German which I can't read so maybe there is an explanation I don't know about



If the pod was on the paph most likely the seed was a result of Paph pollen contamination or self pollination.


----------



## NYEric (Jan 27, 2015)

eteson said:


> No way! The plants in Olaf book are pure Paphs... how could so different crosses give results so similar?


Most of those were posted by Dr. Tanaka a while ago. Why can't they be Paphmipediums!?


----------



## gonewild (Jan 27, 2015)

NYEric said:


> Most of those were posted by Dr. Tanaka a while ago. Why can't they be Paphmipediums!?



http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/Special/enpxp.html


----------



## fibre (Jan 27, 2015)

gonewild said:


> http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/Special/enpxp.html



I don't think this is a intergeneric hybrid:
http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/Special/enpxp2.html
It looks a lot like Paphiopedilum Winter Capricorn. Maybe a mistake of the lab...


----------



## Drorchid (Jan 27, 2015)

I still haven't seen any convincing pictures of a Paphmipedium, they have all looked like 100% Paphiopedilum crosses to me. We have been successful with Mexipedium x Phragmipedium crosses and got them to germinate in the lab, but like Eteson mentioned earlier, they were all poor growers in the lab (often kept proliferating, and never got any good looking seedlings). Only one cross ever made it out of the lab (wallisii x Mexipedium) but it never bloomed for us, and eventually died in the greenhouse. 

Has anyone tried Cypripedium x Phragmipedium or Cypripedium x Paphiopedilum, I would think especially the more tropical Cypripediums (from Mexico or Southern China) might be able to produce compatible offspring when mated with Phrag's or Paph's...

Robert


----------



## eteson (Jan 27, 2015)

Mistakes in lab happens all the time....i do have a huge pile of compost from mislabeled plants... 
Eric, could be... but I need a irrefutable proof to change my mind... i keep being a scientist. Nobody has made a DNA test to those plants?

Btw fibre i agree with you. It could be WC or relative.


----------



## PaphMadMan (Jan 27, 2015)

Drorchid said:


> I still haven't seen any convincing pictures of a Paphmipedium, they have all looked like 100% Paphiopedilum crosses to me. We have been successful with Mexipedium x Phragmipedium crosses and got them to germinate in the lab, but like Eteson mentioned earlier, they were all poor growers in the lab (often kept proliferating, and never got any good looking seedlings). Only one cross ever made it out of the lab (wallisii x Mexipedium) but it never bloomed for us, and eventually died in the greenhouse.
> 
> Has anyone tried Cypripedium x Phragmipedium or Cypripedium x Paphiopedilum, I would think especially the more tropical Cypripediums (from Mexico or Southern China) might be able to produce compatible offspring when mated with Phrag's or Paph's...
> 
> Robert



When you had crosses with proliferation, did you ever try hormonal manipulation to trigger differentiation? That seems like it could be a relatively straight forward problem (for someone whose tissue culture experience is a lot more recent than mine). 

If I wanted to place a bet, Cypripedium x Selenipedium would be the slipper intergeneric I'd put my money on.


----------



## MorandiWine (Jan 27, 2015)

I think that Fibre called it correctly. The similarities are too many in my eyes. Genetic evidence is really the only way.

tyler


----------

