# This Gloria Naugle is finally being pitched.



## Happypaphy7 (Jul 19, 2015)

I have posted about the leaf issues of Paphiopedilum Gloria Naugle last fall.
Those plants are long gone now.
This plant is the only one that I have kept since it had the least amount of those little black spots.

Well, it has been growing well, and from the top, the plant looks fine.
The bottom of the leaves is a different story.
The tiny black spots got bigger and bigger, and they grow both in number and size very slowly.

It is interesting to note how they are lined up along the length of the veins of the leaves. 
The top two leaves are clean, but they will get these problems in time.
I'm thinking fungal issues, but whatever it is, I think I am fed up with this and the fear of it spreading on to my other plants is just driving me nuts and not worth keeping it any more.

My last two nursery visits were very unsuccessful in finding nice GN plants.
They had many but every single plant had this problem or worse yet, rotting leaves. I'm thinking it might be something this hybrid is prone to?

I do have some healthy seedlings and hopefully they will grow up and stay clean.


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## mrhappyrotter (Jul 19, 2015)

What treatments have you tried using? I can't say I've dealt with this particular health issue on slippers, though I've seen something similar in appearance on dendrobiums.

Usually with fungal or bacterial issues I have good luck using Neem spray preventatively. Anecdotally, it seems to prevent the spread (to other plants) of various pathogens and pests, and then once the plants grow sufficiently large that they can spare a leaf or two, I'll cut off any questionable tissue.


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## orcoholic (Jul 19, 2015)

Can't say I've ever seen a lot of GN in bloom. Maybe only a few in 20 years. Always thought there were problems with the cross.


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## John M (Jul 19, 2015)

It does not look like much of an issue to me. I'd love to have that plant. It looks very nice. The spots look like the plant's stomata are being invaded by a pathogen; brobably bacteria. The spots do not have a yellow halo around them; so, the plant is managing to keep the problem just a local one. Perhaps you have humidity that is too high for this cross? Perhaps you really need to increase your air movement. Or, maybe you keep the plants too cool at night, thinking that the micranthum likes cool; but, in fact, the roth parent has made the cross want and need warmer temps? When the nights cool, condensation forms and the stomata on the underside of the leaves stay wet for too long and the delicate tissues "drown"....or, the moisture makes it just too inviting for a pathogen to get inside and do a little bit of damage to a few cells; causing the little black spots. Perhaps you're not feeding enough calcium. A calcium deficiency can cause a plant to become susceptable to pathogens. My advice is to consider what you're feeding your plants and if there is room to improve, do it. Next, make sure that the plants do not chill too much at night and make sure that the foliage does not remain wet...and that includes not allowing them to sit in high humidity without massive amounts of air movement. It could also be caused by mites, which tend to like dry air (therefore, high humidity is not a contributing factor). The mites may choose to feed along the plant's main "veins" that run down the length of the leaf; which would account for the spots to be arranged in rows. After the mites have finished feeding in a particular spot, which can cause damage all by itself, it's possible that then a pathogen (bacteria), gets in and causes just a little bit more damage before the plant finally fights off the invasion.

Try spraying with Aspirin water; be sure you do not have mites and keep the foliage dry (lower humidity and/or increase air movement. You can also help battle pathogens in general by adding a very, very tiny amount of Physan to your water. Use about 1 ml (1/4 tspn), Physan per 10 litres (2.5 gallons), of water and use that at all times to water and spray your plants. I used to add Physan; now I use a pool chemical (algaecide), to help keep my plants spot and rot free. It's not 100% effective; but, without it, there is a LOT more damage showing up.

Good luck.


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## gonewild (Jul 19, 2015)

I agree with John, that's nothing to worry about. Certainly not a reason to discard the plant.


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## Marco (Jul 19, 2015)

Looks fine to me. If you're pitch that one id take it if I could house it. I think it's worth a shot at keeping for a bit.


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## NYEric (Jul 19, 2015)

I'll take it.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jul 19, 2015)

mrhappyrotter said:


> What treatments have you tried using? I can't say I've dealt with this particular health issue on slippers, though I've seen something similar in appearance on dendrobiums.
> 
> Usually with fungal or bacterial issues I have good luck using Neem spray preventatively. Anecdotally, it seems to prevent the spread (to other plants) of various pathogens and pests, and then once the plants grow sufficiently large that they can spare a leaf or two, I'll cut off any questionable tissue.



Well, I had a few GN with this spotting problems on their leaf underside last year. I threw away all but this.
Of the ones I threw away, I sprayed one with neem based product, and others with sulfur or some other spray ( 3 in 1 sort of thing) I bought from a garden center. 
Well, it was not even summertime, but all the plants that were sprayed reacted badly turning brown, which made tossing even easier. 

I normally do not have issues with plants and if I do, I throw them away, which does not happen very often. 
I am against using chemicals (whether natural or not so natural) as I grow indoor. 

I do have paphs that occasionally have this rotting break out on their leaves.
This is very unpleasant and random. I do cut the affected area when this happens and usually that stops the spread although some plants the rot would show up again and again, and I would cut more and more.
Only two or three plants that got chopped down quite a bit. One more break out, and they are out. :evil:
Weak ones don't survive. 

Back to this Gloria Naugle, I did cut one leaf as you can see in the pictures, but because pretty much all the leaves have this problem, I simply cannot cut them. Doing so would leave nearly nothing on the plant.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jul 19, 2015)

orcoholic said:


> Can't say I've ever seen a lot of GN in bloom. Maybe only a few in 20 years. Always thought there were problems with the cross.



Yeah, these parvi x roth (or any other multi) crosses are notorious for not wanting to flower, and when they do flower, the quality is often very questionable.
Few that are good, are GOOD! That's the illusion we all seek after I guess. 
At least that is why I have a whole bunch of them with me.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jul 19, 2015)

John M said:


> It does not look like much of an issue to me. I'd love to have that plant. It looks very nice. The spots look like the plant's stomata are being invaded by a pathogen; brobably bacteria. The spots do not have a yellow halo around them; so, the plant is managing to keep the problem just a local one. Perhaps you have humidity that is too high for this cross? Perhaps you really need to increase your air movement. Or, maybe you keep the plants too cool at night, thinking that the micranthum likes cool; but, in fact, the roth parent has made the cross want and need warmer temps? When the nights cool, condensation forms and the stomata on the underside of the leaves stay wet for too long and the delicate tissues "drown"....or, the moisture makes it just too inviting for a pathogen to get inside and do a little bit of damage to a few cells; causing the little black spots. Perhaps you're not feeding enough calcium. A calcium deficiency can cause a plant to become susceptable to pathogens. My advice is to consider what you're feeding your plants and if there is room to improve, do it. Next, make sure that the plants do not chill too much at night and make sure that the foliage does not remain wet...and that includes not allowing them to sit in high humidity without massive amounts of air movement. It could also be caused by mites, which tend to like dry air (therefore, high humidity is not a contributing factor). The mites may choose to feed along the plant's main "veins" that run down the length of the leaf; which would account for the spots to be arranged in rows. After the mites have finished feeding in a particular spot, which can cause damage all by itself, it's possible that then a pathogen (bacteria), gets in and causes just a little bit more damage before the plant finally fights off the invasion.
> 
> Try spraying with Aspirin water; be sure you do not have mites and keep the foliage dry (lower humidity and/or increase air movement. You can also help battle pathogens in general by adding a very, very tiny amount of Physan to your water. Use about 1 ml (1/4 tspn), Physan per 10 litres (2.5 gallons), of water and use that at all times to water and spray your plants. I used to add Physan; now I use a pool chemical (algaecide), to help keep my plants spot and rot free. It's not 100% effective; but, without it, there is a LOT more damage showing up.
> 
> Good luck.



Well, it sure does look great when you look down on it from above. The underside of the leaves are not looking good at all.
I have seen this on a few plants of the same cross and they all got worse and I threw them away. 
I have seen many more in nurseries and they were BAD!!! When this gets worse, even the top side of the leaves get spotty and some leaves were browning and rotting, and it was just not pretty to say the least.

My picture quality is not all that great, so the detail is not really visible here, but these spots do have yellow area around it.
When they are super tiny, they just look like black specks. Then, they would eventually get larger and then you can see the yellow around the dark area.
It does not look like other common bacteria caused spots, although that can still be a possibility.

I grow indoor, so humidity is really not an issue, although it is summer here and humidity is higher compared to other seasons, but generally, I wish I had higher humidity and lower night temperature drop. Something I simply can't have with this growing setting. I don't ever see condensation. It is something for greenhouse or outdoor setting, which I would love to have.

I thought about mites, but I do not see anything unless it is done by invisible mites. From what I understand, mites can take place in large numbers when conditions are favorable and the damage done can be easily seen on the plant even if the type of mites are very very small.
By the way, I do not consider spider mites small. That's how good my eyes are and how observant I am. 

Calcium- I use tap water with fertilizer with trace elements. I only have GN with this issues. They actually came with spots and they have been getting worse and worse. 

I really don't know what's going on with this plant and other GN I tossed, but it bothers the hell out of me. 
Keeping this plant just bugs me too much and not worth it. 
Hobby should be fun, not full of headache.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jul 19, 2015)

gonewild said:


> I agree with John, that's nothing to worry about. Certainly not a reason to discard the plant.



See the last part of my respond to JohnM.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jul 19, 2015)

Marco said:


> Looks fine to me. If you're pitch that one id take it if I could house it. I think it's worth a shot at keeping for a bit.



I do give plants I do not want to others occasionally, but I never give away plants that are sick.
It just seems wrong to me, spreading some unknown potentially harming agent being introduced to someone else's collection is probably not a great idea.

Sorry.


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## NYEric (Jul 19, 2015)

I'll take it.


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## John M (Jul 20, 2015)

The issue could also be the opposite of what I commented on earlier. If you're growing indoors with very little drop in temperature at night, the cool-loving micranthum side of it's family tree could be making it want things to be a lot cooler than you can give it. Stress, whether it is in plants, animals, or people, can have some very unexptected and even sometimes very perplexing physical and physiological effects. If the plant is under stress because it's not cool enough, the stress would be making it susceptible to pathogen attacks, resulting in numerous small invasion sites. Because the spotting is only on the underside...or only on the underside for awhile at first, I am still leaning to pathogen invasion into the stomata, which are only on the underside of the leaves. 

If the environmental conditions are not overwhelmingly favourable to pathogens (eg: cool and wet), then about the only other reason why the stomata are being infected is because the plant is stressed in some way and in that weakened state, it's defences are not up to par. A thorough spray with Aspirin water once a week for a few weeks and then once a month thereafter would likely stop the progression of this. Aspirin boosts a plant's ability to fight off infection. The Aspirin does not kill the infection, it helps the plant's own defences stop it and prevent more.

To me, after growing orchids, including Paphs, for 35 years, I am certain that throwing out such a plant is unnecessary OVERKILL. This particular cross, with it's unique genetic make-up, just doesn't happen to love your current cultural practices 100%. You need to consider what this plant wants in terms of growing environment and tweak your conditions to suit the plant....or, simply tolerate a bit of leaf spotting. 

Leaf spotting is not as serious as rampant infectious disease....like an outbreak of Erwinia. Whether or not a particular plant gets leaf spots depends on a bunch of environmental and genetic factors all coming together and it usually only affects a single particular plant...or grex. You could send that plant to someone elsewith...say.... a greenhouse and they could very easily grow it into a spectacular specimen with no leaf spots whatsoever.....because their conditions will be different than yours. No two growing areas are the same. A new environment (whether it be a different person's grow room or greenhouse.......or, you change the way you are growing this plant), will likely resolve this spotting issue.


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## Justin (Jul 20, 2015)

agree, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that plant.


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## NYEric (Jul 20, 2015)

I'll take it, if you are getting rid of it.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jul 20, 2015)

John M said:


> The issue could also be the opposite of what I commented on earlier. If you're growing indoors with very little drop in temperature at night, the cool-loving micranthum side of it's family tree could be making it want things to be a lot cooler than you can give it. Stress, whether it is in plants, animals, or people, can have some very unexptected and even sometimes very perplexing physical and physiological effects. If the plant is under stress because it's not cool enough, the stress would be making it susceptible to pathogen attacks, resulting in numerous small invasion sites. Because the spotting is only on the underside...or only on the underside for awhile at first, I am still leaning to pathogen invasion into the stomata, which are only on the underside of the leaves.
> 
> If the environmental conditions are not overwhelmingly favourable to pathogens (eg: cool and wet), then about the only other reason why the stomata are being infected is because the plant is stressed in some way and in that weakened state, it's defences are not up to par. A thorough spray with Aspirin water once a week for a few weeks and then once a month thereafter would likely stop the progression of this. Aspirin boosts a plant's ability to fight off infection. The Aspirin does not kill the infection, it helps the plant's own defences stop it and prevent more.
> 
> ...



Well, I have pretty good day/night temperature difference but for things like micranthum or armeniacum, my summer day temp is way too high and my winter night temp is no where near their likings, hence I do not grow those species. I know some people have lucky plants of those speices that seem to grow and flower just fine without any cold winter but at room temperature year around. I believe those are the odd balls.

You're right in that certain hybrids like GN whose parents are too different in their growing requirement can be pain to deal with. Just remember how much these hybrids love to flower! 

I believe my main concern in the beginning and now about growing plants indoor are too hot summer (both day and night) and winter that are not cold enough for certain things.
The thing is I have a mixed collection, most of which reasonably grow and bloom well under the conditions I can provide.
I cannot really do much to change conditions for just a couple of plants, hence as I mentioned, I do not grow cool growing things like micranthum or armeniacum although I could be lucky and end up with odd ball plants that would be happy here, but how many plants (and they are not exactly cheap)would I have to buy before landing on such luck? Well, I'd rather buy "easier" plants. 

So while my conditions are not ideal, vast majority of my plant (I have hundreds of paphs alone, which might be nothing to some of the greenhouse people here, but certainly large collection for indoor grower in the city) do really well and I hardly ever see issues. This GN issue being the first of its kind.

The thing is this spotting issue is definitely not normal, because normal would be not having these, duh! hehe, and it just worries me. So the mental aspect is also big while other people might not care as much at all.
When I see things like this, I keep thinking some spores are continuously shed in my living room and increase the likelihood of other plants getting the same problem. Maybe not, maybe so. but I just don't want to take any chance of spreading. I'd like to keep my plants clean and healthy looking. 

Also, as I have mentioned, I have visited two nurseries this year alone so far and both of them had many GN. I checked every single plant they had for the underside of the leaves looking for the right one that I wanted.
Well, they were all "bad". Some were much much worse than others.
One particular nursery is located much further up north than the other one and even during the summer, their greenhouse is nice and cool.
So I am thinking this might be something that GN is prone to.

I have read about Aspirin assisted (or should I say activated but don't want to, maybe potentially stimulated?) plant defense mechanism in the past.
As far as I understand, it does not always work and the result is not conclusive. 

I have one mature GN and a few seedlings that are spotless clean and healthy. I hope they will stay that way. Time will tell.

I am visiting one more nursery this week. I will see if I find any GN there and I will check the leaves closely.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jul 20, 2015)

NYEric said:


> I'll take it, if you are getting rid of it.



Gone already.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jul 20, 2015)

Justin said:


> agree, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that plant.



To me, it is absolutely not worth having it. Better for my mental health. 

I hope my remaining GN will stay healthy and clean, and hopefully flower in my life time.


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## John M (Jul 20, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Gone already.



You mean you threw the plant out already?  To bad. That's a waste. I've got some spots and blemishes and other imperfections on my skin. I hope nobody sends me to the compost heap so easily.:sob:


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## Happypaphy7 (Jul 20, 2015)

I don't think that is a good comparison at all.
Too extreme. 

Skin spots and blemishes are mostly unsightly, not a threat on anyone's health unless they are the beginning of precancerous growths or other sort of illness.

Perhaps, sunburned or mechanical damage on plant leaves might be a closer match to those. and if I knew these were sunspots or mechanical damage, I would not freak out or worry.


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## NYEric (Jul 20, 2015)

OK.


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## Marco (Jul 20, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Gone already.



Well that makes room for a brand new one!


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## Happypaphy7 (Jul 20, 2015)

Exactly! 

Troublesome chid gone, no more worries! 
The loss will be soon replaced with something new and exciting! and healthy! :wink:


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## Paphluvr (Sep 4, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> I do give plants I do not want to others occasionally, but I never give away plants that are sick.
> It just seems wrong to me, spreading some unknown potentially harming agent being introduced to someone else's collection is probably not a great idea.
> 
> Sorry.



I used to buy plants from individuals off of E-bay. Not any more. Don't get me wrong, I've bought some nice healthy ones, but too many sick ones that someone decided to make a buck off of rather than toss. Suck it up people, toss them rather than pass your problems on to someone else.


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## Justin (Sep 4, 2015)

that's too bad you pitched it. spots like that are completely normal, especially for plants grown indoors where humidity, water, etc. may not be exactly what a plant would get in nature (which btw, if you've ever seen pictures of wild paphs in situ you will notice the leaves are always VERY beat up and spotted with fungus, chomped on by bugs, etc). the fact that other plants you see from other growers have the same spots speaks to the fact that this is normal not a widespread pandemic.

i always am impressed by growers who can keep their plants totally clean, but it's important to learn what is a real sign of problem with a plant versus something to be expected in normal culture.... for your own peace of mind and also for fixing real true problems quickly before they can get worse.


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## troy (Sep 4, 2015)

Buy plants only from orchid zone


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 4, 2015)

Paphluvr said:


> I used to buy plants from individuals off of E-bay. Not any more. Don't get me wrong, I've bought some nice healthy ones, but too many sick ones that someone decided to make a buck off of rather than toss. Suck it up people, toss them rather than pass your problems on to someone else.



Exactly! 
I hate those people. Unethical. Period! 

The good thing with eBay is you get to see and know the conditions of the plants you are getting as long as the detailed pictures are present and the seller is being honest. 

Pictures that are not clear enough or taken in the shade are normally bad signs. Plus, I have seen some pictures of plants that are in terrible conditions. never bother those.

Then again, some people just do not care and hoard up just about whatever. lol or some people do not know better or what to look out for.

I understand it is normally not necessary to show the underside of the leaves, but that's where I could not see and that's where the problem was.

My seedling GN are growing and so far all is well. They are just small. 
I hope one of them at least flowers for me in a few years.


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 4, 2015)

Justin said:


> that's too bad you pitched it. spots like that are completely normal, especially for plants grown indoors where humidity, water, etc. may not be exactly what a plant would get in nature (which btw, if you've ever seen pictures of wild paphs in situ you will notice the leaves are always VERY beat up and spotted with fungus, chomped on by bugs, etc). the fact that other plants you see from other growers have the same spots speaks to the fact that this is normal not a widespread pandemic.
> 
> i always am impressed by growers who can keep their plants totally clean, but it's important to learn what is a real sign of problem with a plant versus something to be expected in normal culture.... for your own peace of mind and also for fixing real true problems quickly before they can get worse.



Not really. It was not a "normal" kind of spots if that makes sense. Actually does not make sense to me to say spots are normal. It is more of benign or malicious. 

This particular GN came with spots and it came from a commercial grower.
It is not something that developed under my care, although it did worsen, which is why it was a concern. It was there when I got it and it was pretty bad to begin with.

I do have less than ideal humidity except for the summer here, but I rarely have issues, plus this spotting underside only was the first encounter ever. Hence, I brought it up here.
I have seen lots of GN plants and it seems it is something common with GN, unfortunately.

I have visited some GHs and they had GN dying from these spots that were getting larger and larger covering up the entire leaves with brown. Definitely not normal at all.

I also understand about the plants in the wild. 
but we are talking about plants in the cultivation. I'd like to keep my plants healthy and maintain that way not seeing it eaten up by some bugs or attacked by diseases. It's all part of the beauty to me, the whole plant, not just flowers.


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 4, 2015)

troy said:


> Buy plants only from orchid zone



They have produced some great quality flowers and I have respect for that for sure, but not necessarily any better quality plants than other growers. 

Due to their reputation, their plants are expensive.

I have bought a few at a show in the past. I dropped serious money for plants that I normally do not spend.
I did not inspect the plants close enough as I normally do. I don't know why I didn't, especially since I was paying premium for their name.
I bought three in bloom paphs. One was completely diseased with spots and red brown rust. I peeled off the affected leaves and trimmed off some more.
The other two died from root rots in two weeks.
So much for my luck with OZ. lol

I'm sure it was just my bad luck, but that is what I had with their plants.

This GN came from a vendor on ebay that I never dealt with before.
I had no plan to deal with her again of course.

I have bought plants from all over and never really had issues other than those evil bush snails that often hitchhike with the pots.


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## Secundino (Sep 4, 2015)

John M said:


> You mean you threw the plant out already?  To bad. That's a waste. I've got some spots and blemishes and other imperfections on my skin. I hope nobody sends me to the compost heap so easily.:sob:



To bad, indeed. At least for people like me who have no vendor around the corner. Sorry for that plant.


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