# Phrag. besseae var. flavum



## Heather (Mar 3, 2007)

'Windy Hill' x 'Sunbeam'.

Not the best photo...


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## gore42 (Mar 3, 2007)

Beautiful, Heather! How are you growing yours.... s/h? Standard bark mix? Mine isn't growing especially well 

- Matt


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## Heather (Mar 3, 2007)

Thanks Matt.  
It's in S/H. 

I got it close to being in spike. I think it spiked within a couple months but took ages to go from spike to bloom. I was worried it was going to abort. 

John (Phrag) has the same cross and his aborted. I think these flavums are just a little challenged. This has two mature growths but didn't bloom on the first (good thing likely). Has a few new starts. 

I like the bloom, at first I thought it was very proportional but then I looked at my photo and realized how NOT it was. Hoping for better on the next flower. 

It is also very green. Hope it warms up a bit. Hrm, now that I said that, does anyone know if this is temp. sensitive like regular besseae? Greener when grown cooler, more yellow if warm? Just a curious thing that popped into my head all of the sudden!


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## SlipperFan (Mar 3, 2007)

Interesting question. Lovely flower!


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## John M (Mar 3, 2007)

I like it Heather. I'd expect the green to turn more yellow as it ages; but, that's just a guess. I don't have any flavums; so, I'd take it in an instant if you decided that you just hate it! ; )


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## NYEric (Mar 4, 2007)

Hi. Very well done. Most flavum besseae I've seen had the same shape. Remember, they all come from the one flavum plant so maybe until another is found no line breeding for fuller shape is possible. BTW, just send the plants it's going to get colder again but the shipping shouldnt be that bad. E.


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## Heather (Mar 4, 2007)

I sent them yesterday, Eric. 
You should have them tomorrow, hopefully, before it get's cold again. Saw my opportunity and jumped.


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## NYEric (Mar 4, 2007)

Heather said:


> I sent them yesterday, Eric.


Thanx


Heather said:


> Saw my opportunity and jumped.


Like the tigress you are!oke:


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## lienluu (Mar 4, 2007)

NYEric said:


> so maybe until another is found no line breeding for fuller shape is possible.



You can line breed by breeding first to a normal red and then back to get the yellow. It can and has been done.


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## Kyle (Mar 4, 2007)

VEry true Lien, But I don't think its being doen enough. I think thats why lately its been hard to find yellow besseaes. The fertility has decreased due to line breeding without the introduction of new genes/blood.

I think bloomfield orchids has a listing of besseae seedlings whose parents are split for yellow (they look red, but one parent is yellow). So buying one of those seedling could yield a yellow baby. In theory, that one would be more vigorous.

Kyle


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## lienluu (Mar 4, 2007)

Kyle said:


> VEry true Lien, But I don't think its being doen enough. I think thats why lately its been hard to find yellow besseaes. The fertility has decreased due to line breeding.




Hi Kyle,

You're right. I think it's isn't as often done because it's a longer route. But ultimately it can lead to really terrific plants. I've seen a few from the OZ from this line of breeding and they were really exceptional with natural spreads in the 9-10cm range. 

Lien


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## Kyle (Mar 4, 2007)

Its good to hear that the Orchid Zone is doing this kind of work. He has the space to mass produce them so that the price is within reach of hobbists. 

If it was up to me, and I will be getting some flavum this spring, I would breed more for vigour at this point in time, then size and shape. But Terry Roots has probably already done that....

Kyle


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## Heather (Mar 4, 2007)

I hope this one makes it. The other two I have had have gone south after blooming. I'm glad this one chose to not bloom on the first growth and wait until the second. Hopefully that's a good sign.

Edit- post Kyle's post...I'd like to see some increased vigor myself.


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## kentuckiense (Mar 4, 2007)

Looks fine to me!

Anyone know who has some of the plants that came from the original flasks of this form? Furthermore, are they breeding with them?


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## lienluu (Mar 4, 2007)

kentuckiense said:


> Looks fine to me!
> 
> Anyone know who has some of the plants that came from the original flasks of this form? Furthermore, are they breeding with them?



Do you mean original flask of the first flavum clone?


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## kentuckiense (Mar 4, 2007)

lienluu said:


> Do you mean original flask of the first flavum clone?



I mean the flasks produced from the selfing of the original flavum clone. I think that's what you're saying, too.


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## lienluu (Mar 4, 2007)

kentuckiense said:


> I mean the flasks produced from the selfing of the original flavum clone. I think that's what you're saying, too.



Yes, that's what i thought. Didn't word it very well. Those were made in the early 90s and i doubt anyone has remade the cross, 'Fox Valley Gold' x self. And certainly by now all those have bloomed out. I have the plant and could try to self it again though. Tom Kalina may and probably has plants of FVG x self.


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## NYEric (Mar 5, 2007)

My records say I have a besseae flavum from Fox Valley but I have none near blooming size. [Translation: I probably killed it.] The flavum besseae are the slowest growing plants I have. Heathers you can try to pinch out the flower so the plant puts its energy into its next growth...


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## Heather (Mar 6, 2007)

Just found this post so I thought I'd link it in:



Drorchid said:


> What this is, is probaly a cross between a regular besseae and a flavum colored one. the offspring ends up being salmon colored. I have some going as well (they are still seedling stage), I made this cross as I wanted to improve the yellow besseae's. If you sib some of the yellow/red hybrids about 1/4 should be yellow again, but hopefully they should have some more vigor. Untill now all the yellow besseae's have been in-bred, as they are all derived from one single plant.
> 
> Robert



Oh, and Eric, meh...my bess is a two growth plant already so I'll just let if flower on.


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## Heather (Mar 6, 2007)

I want this to go into another message so that it doesn't get lost in the last one I posted. 

I was just looking at the plant and the flower, which, as we noted, is a little less than proportional.

It's actually deformed. 
There is an extra section on the lower right petal next to the pouch. What is fascinating about it is that it has four very small transluscent fenestres. Just like the pouch! 

I am going to attempt a photo but it is so small, I doubt this will work....
camera batteries are dead...stay tuned. This is so cool!


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## smartie2000 (Mar 6, 2007)

that solid yellow is excellent! I didn't know it was deformed...
No one is selling these in Canada yet that I know of, but the price will probably be too high for me anyways


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## Heather (Mar 6, 2007)

How cool is this?


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## smartie2000 (Mar 6, 2007)

Interesting there. Are all the blooms like that?


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## Heather (Mar 6, 2007)

First bloom.


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## SlipperFan (Mar 6, 2007)

She looks like she is puckering....


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## Heather (Mar 6, 2007)

If anyone says "mutation" I may have to kill them. 
I think it is a very interesting example of evolution. Granted, it doesn't get the plant anything more but it is, no doubt, very interesting!


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## Barbara (Mar 6, 2007)

So very beautiful, love this colour yellow. I'll check into this here in Canada to, maybe Russel will have some? Hopefully...


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## Grandma M (Mar 7, 2007)

Heather
Here is my besseae (Hidden Agenda X Winter Sun). It was refered to as a split yellow. It was a first bloom on a tiny plant. Hopefullly next time the bloom will have better shape.


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## NYEric (Mar 7, 2007)

Grandma M said:


> Heather
> Here is my besseae (Hidden Agenda X Winter Sun). It was refered to as a split yellow.


I hope you mean flavum besseae.oke: 
I have a couple of those and I'm glad it doesn't look split at all. Nice job also.


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## NYEric (Mar 7, 2007)

Heather said:


> If anyone says "mutation" I may have to kill them.
> I think it is a very interesting example of evolution. Granted, it doesn't get the plant anything more but it is, no doubt, very interesting!


Well it is a little weird that it's happening and only to one petal. I think you should maybe cut down on the radioactive isotopes. oke:


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## Grandma M (Mar 7, 2007)

When I bought it I was told it was a 'split yellow'. I have 5 plants of that cross and I will post pics when the others bloom. 

besseae (‘Hidden Agenda’ x ‘Winter Sun’) A split yellow by a deep yellow besseae. Looking for much improved yellows and split yellows.


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## Kyle (Mar 7, 2007)

The parents were split yelllow. Or at least I imaging 'hidden agenda' is. The yellow genes would be the hidden agenda they are refering to. Now, 'Winter Sun' doesn't sound like a name for the red flower. So your plant is probably the result of a yellow x split yellow. The results would produce a higher percentage of yellow offspring then mating two split yellows.

Is it a good grower for you? Is it the only yellow you have?

Kyle

Edit: You replied while I was typing. A yellow flower can't be split yellow. It's yellow. I hope your lucky and get five yellow plants!


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## Grandma M (Mar 7, 2007)

Kyle

It is not a good grower. It is very fussy. I have some in high light and some in med light. I will see which do best. The one that bloomed was grown under T5 bulbs

I don't understand the 'split yellow' term. I only know what I was told when I bought it about 15 months ago. It was a very small seeding at that time. 

It may be yellow or split yellow, I don't understand what that is. I only know they seem to be difficult like the yellow besseae. I had a plain yellow one 'besseae flavum'. I got it to bloom once and then it died.


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## lienluu (Mar 7, 2007)

I did a websearch and found another plant of Phrag.besseae(sib) ('Hidden Agenda' × 'Winter Sun') Z5323. It's Z number indicates it is from OZ. You can see the photo here:

http://mikiorchid.myweb.hinet.net/my.html

The close up looks like it shows a flower that's not completely open yet. The NS is pretty small, at 6.8cm.

There are some nice plants on that site too!


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## lienluu (Mar 7, 2007)

Grandma M said:
 

> I don't understand the 'split yellow' term. I only know what I was told when I bought it about 15 months ago. It was a very small seeding at that time.



"Split yellow" would mean that it contained one yellow gene and one red (normal) gene. Meaning that it would be a red flower that contained one gene for yellow flower. 

Assuming yellow is a recessive trait, if you breed a "split yellow" with a yellow you would get:

50% yellow
50% split yellow

Therefore, if the parents of yours are a split yellow and a yellow, then half of the plants produced from that cross will come out yellow. the other half would be split yellow. 

I'm not totally convinced the flavum gene in besseae is recessive, and think it is probably codominant. but in either case, you would still get 50% pure yellows from a cross of split yellow with yellow.

Hope this makes sense.

Lien


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## Kyle (Mar 7, 2007)

Google 'punnett square' and you should get some pages that will expand on what Lien said. 

I agree that the yellow color is probably more complicated then simple mendilian genetics, but generally speaking thats how it works.


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## littlefrog (Mar 7, 2007)

I've just never heard the term 'split' to refer to a known heterozygote before... That is what is confusing to me. The genetics work for me though. I'm not a formally trained plant breeder, so maybe I don't get all the jargon.

Split petal was a term used once to describe some color forms of (usually hybrids) phrag flowers that were differently colored on the upper half of the petal than the lower half. Or at least it was used in the company I kept, who were not plant breeders, and that term may never have left Michigan for all I know... Hanne Popow had a nice percentage of 'split petal' forms, for example.

I've bloomed several of the 'Hidden Agenda' x 'Winter Sun' cross and they have all been yellow. I wouldn't expect that if 'Hidden Agenda' was heterozygous at the 'red locus' and red is dominant, assuming it is a single gene locus that is responsible for red color. This happens sometimes. I know that a back cross of P. wardii [(nom x alba) x alba] that Sam Tsui made came out all nominal (no albas), his too, not just my flat. So, even if the crosses were made properly (I trust Sam) it isn't always as simple as one locus one trait.


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## Kyle (Mar 7, 2007)

I used to breed birds. The term split was used a lot when dealing with recessive and sex-linked traits. Things like albinos and lutinos. Lien breeds birds too, so I bet that why he thinks in those terms as well.

Basically a plants that is split to something has a hidden gene that isn't being expressed. Split to yellow means a red flower with one yellow gene. Weither it is a simple as hetrozygous vs homozygous as the factor for it to be expressed or something far more complicated, I don't know. 

Dean Stock used to post here, I'm sure he would know.

Kyle


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## lienluu (Mar 7, 2007)

Kyle said:


> I used to breed birds. The term split was used a lot when dealing with recessive and sex-linked traits. Things like albinos and lutinos. Lien breeds birds too, so I bet that why he thinks in those terms as well.
> 
> Basically a plants that is split to something has a hidden gene that isn't being expressed. Split to yellow means a red flower with one yellow gene. Weither it is a simple as hetrozygous vs homozygous as the factor for it to be expressed or something far more complicated, I don't know.
> 
> ...




I don't think Dean is a member of ST. he does post, or used to post on SOF. You should invite him over here!

You're right, split is a common term in bird breeding so i'm quite comfortable with it. I used to raise snakes also and in the reptile word, they refer to splits are "hets", either way you say it, all the same.

I don't think flavum in besseae is multigene, but i do think it is codominant. But to be honest with you, I don't breed so i am only basing this on the limited plants that i have bloomed using it as a single parent.


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## paphiness (Mar 7, 2007)

*vigor, besseae, and genetics*

I have a clone_ besseae flavum_ which Terry Root called the most vigorous flavum he'd ever seen. When I acquired it, it had six flower spikes. It grows as vigorously as any red besseae. So it is possible to obtain a vigorous flavum through selective breeding.

For those interested (or intimidated!) by genetics terminology, I've posted a series of basic orchid genetics articles written for the layperson on my website: www.paphinessorchids.com. The pictures in the articles don't feature besseae, but at least it is Paph-specific...

I've actually discussed with Terry Root whether the flavum allele is recessive, and he says it is. A cross to the peach-colored besseae gives all peach. A cross to the normal (i.e., homozygote) red gives all red. A cross to a heterozygote (perhaps called "split" in certain breeding circles) results in 50% red, 50% yellow.

(Orchids, and humans, are diploid organisms which means that they carry two copies of each gene, and in this case, we would mean a pigmentation gene. A heterozygote in this context means that for this pigmentation gene, it carries one red allele, and one yellow allele. A homozygote carry two copies of the same allele for its two copies.)


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## paphiness (Mar 7, 2007)

For those who are confused about what an allele is, I hope this is helpful:
http://www.paphinessorchids.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=23&Itemid=64


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## NYEric (Mar 8, 2007)

H. Look what that mutant started!!!


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## Grandma M (Mar 8, 2007)

lienluu said:


> I did a websearch and found another plant of Phrag.besseae(sib) ('Hidden Agenda' × 'Winter Sun') Z5323. It's Z number indicates it is from OZ. You can see the photo here:
> 
> lienluu



It is possible that mine is the one from OZ. I bought it from Sherwood Orchids when they went out of business. I do know that she had a lot of OZ plants.

I'm still not sure if I should change the label. I have it listed on my records as a 'split yellow'.

ROB
DId you find they were fussy growers?

Grandma


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## littlefrog (Mar 8, 2007)

I found they were a bit fussy... They really didn't like the heat last summer, but they are doing good now. I think they objected to my repotting them as well, took them a while to recover from that. At least one is in bud again though.

I find them to be smaller plants than the regular form, and slower growing.


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## Sangii (Mar 9, 2007)

great flower ! :clap:


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