# kovachii



## Stone (Dec 30, 2012)

How much light does Phrag. kovachii like? At the moment its in very bright morning light and shaded in the afternoon and its colour is ok. More light or less?


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## SlipperFan (Dec 30, 2012)

From what I understand, young plants want less light, and mature plants want more.


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## gonewild (Dec 30, 2012)

They do best with strong light. They tolerate low light very well and look fine but they grow slow in low light. If you want a % then I would say 50% shade all day.

I have a couple growing outside on our deck and they get full sun in the morning and then sun through 80% shade cloth on one side and bright reflected light from a white wall opposite. There is no overhead light because of a roof.


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## Rick (Dec 31, 2012)

The catch 22 is generally as you increase light you also increase temp.

I think you can give these guys almost full sun if you can keep them relatively cool.

But mine are growing fine / looking good under 50% shade cloth during the summer. I've got all the shadecloth off now for the winter, but added a layer of clear bubble wrap (clear swimming pool cover), that is cutting back the light a bit otherwise.

Cattleyas bloom in this area for me if that helps guage.


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## gonewild (Dec 31, 2012)

Rick said:


> The catch 22 is generally as you increase light you also increase temp.
> 
> I think you can give these guys almost full sun if you can keep them relatively cool.



Cool nights are important but day temps can be quite warm for kovachii. So increased light intensity raising daytime temps are not a problem. However when day temps are high the humidity also needs to be high.


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## Rick (Dec 31, 2012)

gonewild said:


> Cool nights are important but day temps can be quite warm for kovachii. So increased light intensity raising daytime temps are not a problem. However when day temps are high the humidity also needs to be high.



Makes sense to me.

I generally keep my humidity >70%.

And with the fogger/ wet wall, and 50% shade, was able to keep peak air temps under 93 F this past summer (but on average it was under 86F). Over 90 would have been just a scattered handful of days.


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## dodidoki (Dec 31, 2012)

Mines are growing well under same light as cattleyas . Optimal light is similar, I think but maximal tolerable light is lower at phrags, so I can advice such light what is like phals and enuogh for catts, too.

Humidity is 75-85 % in greenhouse, potting media is bark.


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## SlipperFan (Jan 1, 2013)

Check this out:
http://www.phragmipediumkovachii.com/PKculture/PK-culture.htm
Alfredo Manrique knows how to grow kovachii.


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## Rick (Jan 1, 2013)

SlipperFan said:


> Check this out:
> http://www.phragmipediumkovachii.com/PKculture/PK-culture.htm
> Alfredo Manrique knows how to grow kovachii.



Yes but some problems with units and inconsistencies of measure.

For instance soil K is listed as 60ppm (is that as dry soil, how solids are typically measured)?)

Calcium carbonate is listed as 85some odd percent. So percent of what? If this was % soil weight then that is 850,000 ppm.

Now water quality says EC (EC is conductivity btw, not TDS) 20ppm. That would probably be a normal solution TDS, and suggests that 99.5% of soil solids are not soluble.

Then the fert strategy is also hard to figure out. Some combination of the 15-5-15 with Calcium nitrate and/or Mag sulfate. Is that sequential use or combined? And maxing out a 300ppm TDS? If CaNO3 is combined with the 15-5-15 then we're getting pretty close to the low K work around I did with MSU/calcium nitrate/mag sulfate.

Anyway based on this link (and similar text on the OD article), I'm having trouble figuring out what he's doing, to compare it to what I'm doing. But ultimately I think its about the same


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## Rick (Jan 1, 2013)

However, I suspect that given the amount of lime (like) materials being added to his potting mix, that the 15-5-15 fert has a fairly decent percentage of ammonia for N. But you also can't tell that from this article, so can't be verified.


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## Rick (Jan 1, 2013)

http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/agricultu...-water/soil/understanding-soil-tests-pastures

I also guess that he might have used a standard soil/agri lab to come up with his numbers.

The above link may be helpful to put the numbers in perspective.


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## SlipperFan (Jan 1, 2013)

I'm not that scientific to see the discrepencies, Rick! But I do know, from talking with him at Redland last year, that he recommends including a lot of calcium in the potting media. 
When I posted that link, I was thinking more about the original question, about light, than the chemistry involved. 
Would you consider writing him with your concerns? He is very amiable, and there is a way to contact him through the website (under contact us).


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## Rick (Jan 1, 2013)

SlipperFan said:


> Would you consider writing him with your concerns? He is very amiable, and there is a way to contact him through the website (under contact us).



That could be fun.:wink:


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## gonewild (Jan 2, 2013)

This is the soil sample taken from the kovachii collection site that Alfredo tested.

As you can see it is mostly rock and mud... the rock is broken limestone. The mud seemed to be mostly clay with small amounts of organic particulate.

This is not a media that can be duplicated or used in containers easily nor can the analysis really give the answers absolute, only a rough guess guideline.


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## Ozpaph (Jan 2, 2013)

looks like animal dung


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## keithrs (Jan 2, 2013)

gonewild said:


> This is the soil sample taken from the kovachii collection site that Alfredo tested.
> 
> As you can see it is mostly rock and mud... the rock is broken limestone. The mud seemed to be mostly clay with small amounts of organic particulate.
> 
> This is not a media that can be duplicated or used in containers easily nor can the analysis really give the answers absolute, only a rough guess guideline.



From the pic I have seen of it growing wild, there seems to be lots of moss growing on top of this media. Do the roots of kovachii go into this media or stay on top of it but under the moss?


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## gonewild (Jan 2, 2013)

keithrs said:


> From the pic I have seen of it growing wild, there seems to be lots of moss growing on top of this media. Do the roots of kovachii go into this media or stay on top of it but under the moss?



Alfredo told me the roots grow in the soil and the soil in the bag came directly from around the roots.


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## gonewild (Jan 2, 2013)

Ozpaph said:


> looks like animal dung



Yes that is what it looks like but each chunk is actually a limestone rock.


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## Rick (Jan 2, 2013)

gonewild said:


> Yes that is what it looks like but each chunk is actually a limestone rock.



So I can see that it would be easy to say that 85% of the sample is calcium carbonate.

Given the size of the chunks, the majority of the CaCO3 is not readily available for root uptake also


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## Rick (Jan 2, 2013)

gonewild said:


> This is the soil sample taken from the kovachii collection site that Alfredo tested.
> 
> As you can see it is mostly rock and mud... the rock is broken limestone. The mud seemed to be mostly clay with small amounts of organic particulate.
> 
> ...


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## gonewild (Jan 2, 2013)

Rick said:


> gonewild said:
> 
> 
> > This is the soil sample taken from the kovachii collection site that Alfredo tested.
> ...


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## gonewild (Jan 2, 2013)

Rick said:


> So I can see that it would be easy to say that 85% of the sample is calcium carbonate.
> 
> Given the size of the chunks, the majority of the CaCO3 is not readily available for root uptake also



When I saw this sample is when I decided to try mixing chunks of crushed limestone into the media for my kovachii. I made an assumption that the plants may benifit from roots actually contacting limestone. It did a pretty thorough test mixing in different sizes and percentages. I used limestone rock and also oyster shell. 

The results showed that kovachii seedlings grew better with the addition of physical pieces limestone to the media as opposed to relying on additions of minerals in the fertilizer solution. It did not matter whether the chunks were oyster shell or rock. The addition of 20%-50% limestone to the media increased growth over 0-20% content. From 50%-70% there was no noticable difference. Seedlings planted in 100% crushed limestone were not real happy.

I still have the opinion that roots benifit from physical contact with the limestone. I think there is more involved than just available mineral content.


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## NYEric (Jan 2, 2013)

Ozpaph said:


> looks like animal dung


Oops! Wrong bag!


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## Rick (Jan 2, 2013)

gonewild said:


> When I saw this sample is when I decided to try mixing chunks of crushed limestone into the media for my kovachii. I made an assumption that the plants may benifit from roots actually contacting limestone. It did a pretty thorough test mixing in different sizes and percentages. I used limestone rock and also oyster shell.
> 
> The results showed that kovachii seedlings grew better with the addition of physical pieces limestone to the media as opposed to relying on additions of minerals in the fertilizer solution. It did not matter whether the chunks were oyster shell or rock. The addition of 20%-50% limestone to the media increased growth over 0-20% content. From 50%-70% there was no noticable difference. Seedlings planted in 100% crushed limestone were not real happy.
> 
> I still have the opinion that roots benifit from physical contact with the limestone. I think there is more involved than just available mineral content.



I only have one PK (so not an experiment) and its set up in a basket with a mix of sphagnum and limestone rock (driveway limestone with peices from 1-2"). The limestone probably takes up 50% of the volume. The plant is doing great, but not sure if the limestone is doing anything obvious to the chemistry other than providing excelent drainage, and taking up space. From measuring chemistry on pass through water, there isn't a lot of difference either. So maybe the plants are really getting stuff off the rocks, or maybe its like the stryo peanuts in the Catt pots and just limiting the amount of organic media that would be available to hang on to excess salts in the first place.

It would be nice to know the nature of the "water" that was tested. At 20ppm its pretty dilute.


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## keithrs (Jan 2, 2013)

Rick said:


> I only have one PK (so not an experiment) and its set up in a basket with a mix of sphagnum and limestone rock (driveway limestone with peices from 1-2"). The limestone probably takes up 50% of the volume. The plant is doing great, but not sure if the limestone is doing anything obvious to the chemistry other than providing excelent drainage, and taking up space. From measuring chemistry on pass through water, there isn't a lot of difference either. So maybe the plants are really getting stuff off the rocks, or maybe its like the stryo peanuts in the Catt pots and just limiting the amount of organic media that would be available to hang on to excess salts in the first place.
> 
> It would be nice to know the nature of the "water" that was tested. At 20ppm its pretty dilute.



I mistaken ppm for TDS.... Ops


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## Stone (Jan 2, 2013)

gonewild said:


> This is the soil sample taken from the kovachii collection site that Alfredo tested.
> 
> As you can see it is mostly rock and mud... the rock is broken limestone. The mud seemed to be mostly clay with small amounts of organic particulate.
> 
> This is not a media that can be duplicated or used in containers easily nor can the analysis really give the answers absolute, only a rough guess guideline.



Now thats what I like to see! The real nitty gritty. I would bet that that medium is almost exactly the same chemically as the stuff that all the limestone paphs grow in. Basically a mixture of limestone derived clay, chunks of decomposing (very old) limestone, humus and bits of moss and grass etc.
I would also bet that its pH would be around 7 (if that). So given that most plants (even those which come from an ''alkaline'' environment with a pH up to 8 will do well with a media pH of 6-7, as long as there is at least twice as much Ca as Mg, ( and not too much K ) It should be fairly easy to grow this plant in any media which meets the basic requirements. No chunks of limestone should be necessary. Its so insoluble anyway. If it was very soluble, firstly nothing would grow in it and secondly it would be all back in the sea by now.
And so far this bares out with my little guy which did very well for the first few months in only leca, sitting in water and fed with osmocote= acid. I have since repotted to include some bark and moss for cation exchange and extra Fe availability, but its still fed the same way with no limestone at all. Just a tad of Gypsum. It does get flushed out every couple of days to keep the ec low.
So I believe its bright light then?


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## Rick (Jan 3, 2013)

Stone said:


> I would also bet that its pH would be around 7 (if that). So given that most plants (even those which come from an ''alkaline'' environment with a pH up to 8 will do well with a media pH of 6-7, as long as there is at least twice as much Ca as Mg, ( and not too much K ) It should be fairly easy to grow this plant in any media which meets the basic requirements. No chunks of limestone should be necessary. Its so insoluble anyway. If it was very soluble, firstly nothing would grow in it and secondly it would be all back in the sea by now.



pH is listed as mid 6's. If the water parameters are for pore water (at TDS 20ppm) then suggests that hardenss and alkalinity is low. But your strategy is sound.


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## Ozpaph (Jan 3, 2013)

Could the limestone chuncks stabilise the root temperature - like a heat/cool sink?


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## Rick (Jan 4, 2013)

Ozpaph said:


> Could the limestone chuncks stabilise the root temperature - like a heat/cool sink?



Probably not in the small confines of a pot.

I'm more inclined to think we generally overfertilize, and having a large percentage of the mix as non retentive (of either water or fert) promotes a generally lower TDS condition around the roots.

It kind of reminds me of when I could only keep roots on large multiflorals when they were in itty bitty pots (like a 24" supardii blooming in a 2" pot). Now with low K, low feed rate, baskets with lots of gravel chunks, I have roots galore in a 8" basket for the same size plant.


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