# My experiment with seedlings,,



## gego (Nov 16, 2018)

I have a few flasks I got from Sam last Dec and some last Feb. This roth (Kingkong x Sandy) was de- flasked late Dec. 
They started really slow so I decided to feed them to check if they will respond. Some really were happy that they are not starved.
I potted them last week individually. Happy with the result but the response were not uniform.




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## Paphman910 (Nov 17, 2018)

Wow looks healthy!


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## Ozpaph (Nov 17, 2018)

mine, from this cross, are slow.
what did you do?


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## gego (Nov 17, 2018)

Food. I bought them to experiment so I said what the hell, feeding low does not do anything what about high 500 total ppm, they did. Roots are good. They get what I feed to the matured plants.

Here's a big one, the lowest leaf is the one that came out from flask.


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## Ozpaph (Nov 17, 2018)

what and how often do you feed them. The results look good.


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## gego (Nov 17, 2018)

Fert every water, in my condition, twice a week. Moss thrives on the media. High humidity, not less than 75%, lots of fresh air. After each watering, I adjust the fan to hit the leaves until water dries up from the leaves. In my condition, it will take 2 to 3 hrs.
At least once a month, i drenched them with tap water.

My fert is balance using RO with added cal/mag plus micro. Ph always adjusted to 6-6.5.


One pot had bark and perlite and the other just plain small rocks. Did not notice any difference.

Light about 600-800 FC.

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## Ray (Nov 18, 2018)

I'm trying to get a handle on just how high 500 mg TDS really is.

What is the fertilizer formula and how much are you diluting it?


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## gego (Nov 18, 2018)

Formula is all over the internet. I did not make them. 500ppm is total. Not 500 ppm N

My instrument for ppm is this. Been using this brand for years.

The formulations I have are
5-12-26
15-0-0
Epsom Salts
12-3-15

To adjust ph, i combine/mix
20-20-20
30-10-10
24-14-14

For micros I use your KelpMax and other stuff.

500 ppm total is hard to digest? LOL. I feed my Vandas up to 750 ppm. But I pre wet the roots first. That is the trick.

I have a few compots I will show later. 

I believe the delivery is very important and that is my trick.
Just sharing, not advising. I like to experiment. 
So please don't take this seriously.


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## Ray (Nov 18, 2018)

I understood TDS and not ppm N, but I'm still wondering how you're getting ppm from an EC meter, unless you have the EC versus ppm chart for each formula.

The reason I am following this thought is that I have measured the TDS of a 125 ppm N MSU RO Solution and gotten as much as 900-1200 ppm TDS.

Also, since you water first, you're saturating the roots with plain water, so their uptake of the fertilizer solution will be greatly limited, so your 500 or 750 ppm may "appear" to the plant as a fraction of that, so you're wasting the rest.

One last thought - on the assumption that you really are "megadosing" the seedlings, their growth might be phenomenal, but if you continue that when they're mature, they won't flower worth a damn. (Ask me how I know...)


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## gego (Nov 18, 2018)

TDS is either EC or PPM, this meter uses 0.5 factor. So 1000 EC is 500 ppm.

I can understand a 120 N would go up to 1000 EC.

I limit my total PPM (im using PPM) and N can be from 35-70 as I vary my feed combination during the year. This is the same feeding I use on my matured plants as I stated above, I dont have any problem with flowering. In fact my first bloom with multis are usually above average. I know what you are talking about, no I dont overdose with N.
But I can probably pamper these seedlings for a few years. 

Well, my trick I think is working is all I can say. Wasting or not, the plants are growing.
I will be potting a primary hybrid later this week. They are responding even better.

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## Happypaphy7 (Nov 18, 2018)

Whether you feed them or not (of course the babies must be fed haha), there is bound to be differences among the seedlings anyway. 
Some are always larger and grow faster than others.


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## Ozpaph (Nov 19, 2018)

my EC meter measures both TDS and ppm - factor of 2 differnence.

I feed after watering. Im interested if there's any 'science' behind the watering before or after fertilizing?


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## Ray (Nov 19, 2018)

Ozpaph said:


> I feed after watering. Im interested if there's any 'science' behind the watering before or after fertilizing?


The science is called "logic".

Roots can absorb a limited volume of solution in a short period of time.

Expose them to a solution immediately, and they'll absorb that solution.

Water them first, and they will absorb the plain water, resulting in a reduced capacity to absorb anything dissolved in the follow-up solution. This used to be pretty much standard practice when I volunteered at what is now the Atlanta Botanical Garden, some 45+ years ago, to prevent the "root burn" associated with the application of excessively-strong fertilizer solutions.

Disadvantages: Double the watering effort and time, and wastes fertilizer, that ends up on the ecosystem.

Advantage: If you use a bark-based medium, and it is dry at the time of watering, wetting things first and open up the wood structure, making it able to absorb more of the nutrient solution later.


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## gego (Nov 19, 2018)

It depends on the kind of roots. For my vandas that are just dangling down, no media, it is best to pre water and condition the roots, especially when the roots are white, they are dry. They wont absorb anything. They need to turn green first, it takes some time. I then feed them after two to three hours. But just spray the roots and they will turn very dark green right away. Food is taken. No need to drench.

For roots with media and you wont let them get dry, I feed without pre water but stop as the water comes out of pot. I drench with tap thoroughly, more times in summer, like giving them a rainshower. Then feed the next day. Paph loves that heavy shower and i love doing it too.

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## emydura (Nov 21, 2018)

Amazing looking roth seedlings, especially when they are not even a year old. My two year old roth seedlings from Sam look nowhere near that good.


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## gego (Nov 26, 2018)

Here is a Paph Julius compot, deflasked on 1/21/2018. They are ready to separate ways.



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## gego (Nov 26, 2018)

One of the biggest is over 6" LS


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## gego (Nov 26, 2018)

Interesting that the roots are still the original roots when deflasked. I have 16 good ones from this pot,, the second one probably has 10 seedlings. Not bad.

Here's a group shot, ready for potting.



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## gego (Nov 27, 2018)

16 potted Julius,, whew I will need a bigger space for all these babies. More potting to come.


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## emydura (Nov 28, 2018)

Those Julius look incredible. One of my favourite hybrids too.


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## gego (Nov 28, 2018)

These new primary hybrids seem to be good growers. All seedlings may have survived, I did not monitor. Hoping for better outcome.

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## gego (Nov 29, 2018)

Here' another 'King Kong' primary, deflasked the same time as the Julius above. I have two compots from the flask but I just have to re pot them one at a time. This is becoming work now.


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## gego (Nov 29, 2018)

Paph. Lady Isabel


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## gego (Nov 30, 2018)

Done. 16 seedlings in the pot.


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## NYEric (Nov 30, 2018)

What's the experiment again?


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## gego (Nov 30, 2018)

NYEric said:


> What's the experiment again?


Please read the beginning of my post. But to make it short, I was frustrated with the growth of these seedlings following the tips here of feeding low or even nothing. So I decided to feed them the same fertilizer I give to the matured plants,,, that is the result.
But the experiment is about growing these seedlings. Media used where different. But they all grew well on bark and lava rock and mix of the two with the same feeding.
In other words, no feed no growth. Duhhh, I said to myself.
For food, balanced N,K and Ca with micro nutrients supplements. The rest are pretty standard stuff.

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## gego (Dec 11, 2018)

Here is Paph haynaldianum, deflasked last Jan 21, 2018.


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## gego (Dec 11, 2018)

Ready for potting


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## gego (Dec 12, 2018)

I hava 27 seedlings in this flask. They were very skinny with long stems from flask. Not well done imho. But they recovered.


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## Carper (Dec 12, 2018)

All looking very healthy and adapting well to your culture. Excellent success rate and your methods look spot on.

Gary
UK


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## gego (Dec 12, 2018)

Thanks. The next question is,, can i keep the momentum? We'll see. I need to place some markers.

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## troy (Dec 12, 2018)

I also feed every week, all of mine!! I'm confused about the no fertilizing advice, if you don't feed a living organism it will not grow


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## troy (Dec 12, 2018)

Your seedlings look great!! I do fertilize my seedlings a little less than my mature plants though


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## gego (Dec 12, 2018)

I got tired of making a separate mix. The roots were not dead.
If a seedling grows next to the mother plant in nature, that seedling will have access to what the mother gets.

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## NYEric (Dec 13, 2018)

gego said:


> Please read the beginning of my post. But to make it short, I was frustrated with the growth of these seedlings following the tips here of feeding low or even nothing.



OK, thanks. Good luck, keep us posted.


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## gego (Jan 9, 2019)

This is Paph fairrieanum from Sam deflasked last April 2018. They came really small with tiny lanky stems. Again, I dont know if I got the last few one or they were just not that healthy.
The two compots have small rocks, perlite and sand as the media,, again just experimenting. They seems to adapt to it and recovered fast enough. The roots on some were really going deep but the rocks were loose so it was easy to take them out.
I think half is fairly sized out of the 24 seedlings.




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## Ozpaph (Jan 10, 2019)

good growing


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