# Do you think this is an alba?



## bcostello (Nov 24, 2008)

This is labelled Catasetum Ten Dragons. I bought this plant as a seedling from Fred Clarke when he visited our society's meeting in Sept 2006. This is the first blooming. It looks nothing like a Ten Dragons. 

My camera had a terrible time getting a good pic.


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## Hien (Nov 24, 2008)

Don't they have two different colors depend on wether they are female or male flowers?


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## Candace (Nov 24, 2008)

Yes, male and female flowers will give you different coloration. Usually the female flowers can be much plainer. I'm not a catasetum expert but it looks like these are male flowers and should be the most colored form. You can shoot a picture to Fred as I'm sure he'll tell you for sure. But, to me it looks like it may be an alba.


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## NYEric (Nov 24, 2008)

Did you come to NYC and take my old camera?


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## neo-guy (Nov 24, 2008)

Why not send the pic to Fred, i'm sure he'll let you know.....


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## gonewild (Nov 24, 2008)

I would say it is an alba.
I collected some species like this in Peru. Some plants bloom always without red pigment whether it is male or female flowers. The female flowers have the lip that looks like a pouch.


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## Rick (Nov 24, 2008)

gonewild said:


> I would say it is an alba.
> I collected some species like this in Peru. Some plants bloom always without red pigment whether it is male or female flowers. The female flowers have the lip that looks like a pouch.




I only have one Catesetum, and I have only made a cursory look at the picture books for this genus, but I think these are female flowers (which have a cup or pouch, and which often faces down) which tend to be much greener than their male counterparts. But there are often colored highlights to allot of female flowers too. This could be an alba.


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## gonewild (Nov 24, 2008)

Those are male flowers. The pouch on the female is like the pouch on a slipper, but upside down. You can also see the pollen caps and triggers that will send the pollen flying at the slightest touch.

Here is a female flower


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## Candace (Nov 24, 2008)

Yes these pictured here are males. For clarification purposes here's a picture of my male and female flowers from the same plant. 

male 





The female with it's "pouch"


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## Rick (Nov 24, 2008)

You are right Candace.

I was also poking around in a couple of sources, and Bcostelo's flowers look allot like some male forms of C. saccatum. Namely (what is now on Jay's site) as C.osculatum. These are really close with a green flower with a red opening to that throat like structure in the lip. This species also has a hermaphroditic flower that is totally green, but halfway between what looks like a typical female flower and a screwed up male flower.

I don't know what is in Ten Dragons, but if it starts out with osculatum it wouldn't take much to get an alba out of it.


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## Rick (Nov 25, 2008)

It also looks like it might have some tenebrosum in it. I think that's a pretty popular Catesetum species in collections too.


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## Rick (Nov 25, 2008)

This was kind of fun.

Ctsm. Ten Dragons = Ctsm. Dragon teeth X Ctsm tenebrosum

Ctsm. Dragon teeth = Ctsm fimbriatum X Ctsm saccatum (variety not specified but I suspect var. chrystianum = syn Ctsm osculatum. That would put allot more green into it)

So I had 2 of the 3 species in this hybrid correct. There's definitely a lack of pigment based on the normal forms for any of the species in this mix, but the form is certainly there.


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## bcostello (Nov 25, 2008)

Fred thinks it is an alba. 

OMG, now the responsibility of keeping it alive.


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## Candace (Nov 25, 2008)

Did he mention of several of them came out albas or is the only one he knows about?


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## Rick (Nov 25, 2008)

Candace said:


> Did he mention of several of them came out albas or is the only one he knows about?



Did he also mention what form of saccatum was used in the cross, or if any alba parents of any species were used?


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## bcostello (Nov 25, 2008)

Candace said:


> Did he mention of several of them came out albas or is the only one he knows about?



He said it was one of thousands and very unusual. 

The cross is Ctsm. tenebrosum 'Ed's #3' x Ctsm. Dragon Teeth 'Sunset Valley Orchids' AM/AOS


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## SlipperFan (Nov 25, 2008)

Now you have heavy responsibilities resting on your shoulders!


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## NYEric (Nov 28, 2008)

All the gender talk has me remembering my days growing up in Greenwich Village! The things I have seen! :rollhappy:


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## P-chan (Nov 28, 2008)

Dang!! How cool! I've gotten some seedlings from different growers hoping for an unusual plant. (as everyone has, I'm sure.) This is so cool! Good luck with it! I have a Cycnoches cooperi 'SVO lll' FCC/AOS x Cycnoches Jean E. Monnier '#2' from Fred, that is so pretty! ( in my eyes!) My son says.."is it supposed to be brown?"


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## goldenrose (Nov 28, 2008)

P-chan said:


> Dang!! How cool! I've gotten some seedlings from different growers hoping for an unusual plant. (as everyone has, I'm sure.) This is so cool! Good luck with it! I have a Cycnoches cooperi 'SVO lll' FCC/AOS x Cycnoches Jean E. Monnier '#2' from Fred, that is so pretty! ( in my eyes!) My son says.."is it supposed to be brown?"


Is yours spotted like Jean Monnier? Jean is a beauty & it is kinda brownish!


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## Kavanaru (Jan 13, 2009)

wow--- a beautiful plant... and yes, I agree that this is an album... gorgeous!


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