# Legal Paphiopedilum in the USA



## Roth (Apr 23, 2012)

After using the CITES Trade Database Query Tool, the results are below. The reported number and quantities result from a report BY THE USFWS of WHAT THEY ALLOWED TO IMPORT AND HAS BEEN REALLY IMPORTED:



First year, second 1 is for Appendix 1 CITES, third name, fourth importer (USA here), fifth exporter, sixth possible original exporter, seventh quantity, eight 'live specimen', nine purpose ( P personal, T trade), tenth origin ( I for Illegal, confiscated)

First the plants seized during the last 10 years, unknown species ( there are more of some known ones...), 

2009	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	CA	XX	1	live	P	I
1998	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	ID 1	live	P	I
1998	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	ID 71	live	T	I
1998	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	XX 4	live	P	I
1999	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	MX 1	live	P	I
1999	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TH 1	live	T	I
2000	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CH 1	live	P	I
2000	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	HK 6	live	T	I
2000	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	JP 4	live	P	I
2000	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TW 4	live	P	I
2001	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	JP 1	live	P	I
2001	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	JP 1	live	T	I
2001	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	KR 20	live	T	I
2001	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TW 1	live	P	I
2001	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TW 5	live	T	I
2002	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	PH 1	live	P	I
2002	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TH 1	live	P	I
2002	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	VN 68	live	P	I
2003	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CA 4	live	P	I
2003	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	JP 1	live	P	I
2004	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CA 8	live	T	I
2004	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CN 36	live	T	I
2004	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	PH 1	live	P	I
2004	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TH 1	live	T	I
2004	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TW 28	live	P	I
2004	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	VN 1	live	P	I
2006	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CN 95	live	T	I
2006	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TH 1	live	T	I
2007	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CN 3	live	T	I
2007	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	HK 96	live	T	I
2007	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	JP 1	live	P	I
2008	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	NL 3400	live	T	I
2008	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TH 168	live	T	I
2008	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	VN 1	live	P	I
2009	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	VN 102	live	T	I
2009	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	XX 5	live	P	I
2009	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	XX 102	live	T	I
2010	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CN 16	live	T	I
2010	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TH 2	live	T	I


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## Roth (Apr 23, 2012)

Second, new species legally importer in the USA, according to the USFWS:

T is trade, A artificiallly propagated, 


2004	1	Paphiopedilum adductum	US	TH 123	live	T	A
2007	1	Paphiopedilum adductum	US	TH 80	live	T	A
2007	1	Paphiopedilum adductum	US	TW 2	live	T	A
2008	1	Paphiopedilum adductum	US	TH 42	live	T	A
2008	1	Paphiopedilum adductum	US	TW 10	live	T	A
2006	1	Paphiopedilum armeniacum	US	HK	TH	600	live	T	A
2006	1	Paphiopedilum armeniacum	US	MY 50	live	T	A
2007	1	Paphiopedilum armeniacum	US	HK	TH	300	live	T	A
2008	1	Paphiopedilum armeniacum	US	TH 311	live	T	A
2006	1	Paphiopedilum armeniacum	US	MY A
2008	1	Paphiopedilum barbigerum var. lockiainum	US	TH 5	live	T	A
2001	1	Paphiopedilum gigantifolium	US	MY 14	cultures	T	A
2009	1	Paphiopedilum gigantifolium	US	CA 5	live	T	A
2006	1	Paphiopedilum gigantifolium	US	DE 40	live	T	A
2007	1	Paphiopedilum gigantifolium	US	TW 5	live	T	A
2008	1	Paphiopedilum gigantifolium	US	TW 1	live	T	A
2009	1	Paphiopedilum gigantifolium	US	TW 5	live	T	A
2001	1	Paphiopedilum gigantifolium	US	MY A
2004	1	Paphiopedilum hangianum	US	TH 5	live	T	A
2009	1	Paphiopedilum hangianum	US	CA 3	live	T	A
2008	1	Paphiopedilum hangianum	US	CA 4	live	T	A
2008	1	Paphiopedilum hangianum	US	TW 180	live	T	A
2009	1	Paphiopedilum hangianum	US	TW 5	live	T	A
2004	1	Paphiopedilum helenae	US	TH 1	live	T	A
2006	1	Paphiopedilum helenae	US	CA	TW	5	live	T	A
2007	1	Paphiopedilum helenae	US	CA 2	live	T	A
2009	1	Paphiopedilum helenae	US	CA 5	live	T	A
2008	1	Paphiopedilum helenae	US	CA 4	live	T	A
2008	1	Paphiopedilum helenae	US	TH 10	live	T	A
2008	1	Paphiopedilum helenae	US	TW 30	live	T	A
2009	1	Paphiopedilum helenae	US	TW 5	live	T	A
2009	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	AU 114	live	T	A
2009	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	CA 381	live	T	A
2009	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	DE 303	live	T	A
2009	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	JP	US	13	live	T	A
2009	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	JP 66	live	T	A
2009	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	SG	TW	4	live	T	A
2009	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	TW 9174	live	T	A
2010	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	CO 1	live	T	A
2010	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	DE 305	live	T	A
2010	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	JP	US	22	live	T	A
2010	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	TW 2737	live	T	A
2009	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	CA 8	live	T	A
2009	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	TH 1	live	T	A
2010	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	FR 32	cultures	T	A
2010	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	TH 45	live	T	A
2008	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	CA A
2008	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	CA A
2009	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	EC	CO A
2010	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	FR A
2001	1	Paphiopedilum ooii	US	MY 4	cultures	T	A
2008	1	Paphiopedilum papuanum	US	TW 30	live	T	A
2001	1	Paphiopedilum sangii	US	MY 24	cultures	T	A
2008	1	Paphiopedilum sangii	US	MY 60	live	T	A
2006	1	Paphiopedilum sangii	US	DE 30	live	T	A
2006	1	Paphiopedilum sangii	US	MY 10	live	T	A
2008	1	Paphiopedilum sangii	US	TW 20	live	T	A
2001	1	Paphiopedilum sangii	US	MY A
2006	1	Paphiopedilum sangii	US	MY A
2007	1	Paphiopedilum schoseri	US	TW 9	live	T	A
2009	1	Paphiopedilum tranlienianum	US	CA 10	live	T
2008	1	Paphiopedilum tranlienianum	US	CA 4	live	T
2008	1	Paphiopedilum tranlienianum	US	TH 5	live	T
2008	1	Paphiopedilum tranlienianum	US	TW 60	live	T
2003	1	Paphiopedilum vietnamense	US	TW 80	live	T
2009	1	Paphiopedilum vietnamense	US	CA 3	live	T
2008	1	Paphiopedilum vietnamense	US	TW 30	live	T


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## Roth (Apr 23, 2012)

Third, hybrid Paphiopedilum allowed by the USFWS as hybrid paphiopedilum without noticed parentage for most:


2009	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	AU 114	live	T	A
2009	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	CA 381	live	T	A
2009	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	DE 303	live	T	A
2009	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	JP	US	13	live	T	A
2009	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	JP 66	live	T	A
2009	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	SG	TW	4	live	T	A
2009	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	TW 9174	live	T	A
2010	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	CO 1	live	T	A
2010	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	DE 305	live	T	A
2010	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	JP	US	22	live	T	A
2010	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	TW 2737	live	T	A
2009	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	CA 8	live	T	A
2009	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	TH 1	live	T	A
2010	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	FR 32	cultures	T	A
2010	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	TH 45	live	T	A
2008	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	CA A
2008	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	CA A
2009	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	EC	CO A
2010	1	Paphiopedilum hybrid	US	FR A

And the unknown identity plants ( can be species or hybrids...) allowed by the USFWS for import:

1998	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	AU 160	live	T	A
1998	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	BR 2	live	T	A
1998	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CA 57	live	T	A
1998	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	GB 50	live	B	A
1998	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	GB 1444	live	T	A
1998	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	JP 2	live	T	A
1998	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	KE	TH	22	live	P	A
1998	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	NL 13805	live	T	A
1998	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	NZ 1450	live	T	A
1999	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	AU 16	live	T	A
1999	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CA 1354	live	T	A
1999	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	DE 450	live	T	A
1999	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	FR 5	live	T	A
1999	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	GB 2050	live	T	A
1999	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	JP 4	live	T	A
1999	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	NL 14166	live	T	A
1999	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	NZ 217	live	T	A
1999	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TH 101	live	T	A
1999	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TW	NL	55	live	T	A
1999	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TW	US	455	live	T	A
2000	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CA 1547	live	T	A
2000	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	DE 300	live	T	A
2000	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	FR 4	live	T	A
2000	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	GB 760	live	T	A
2000	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	JP 11000	live	T	A
2000	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	NL 4953	live	T	A
2000	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	NZ 1210	live	T	A
2000	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TH 613	live	T	A
2000	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TW	NL	4200	live	T	A
2000	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TW 11230	live	T	A
2001	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	AU 103	live	T	A
2001	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	BE 30	live	T	A
2001	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US BR 30	live	T	A
2001	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CA 1243	live	T	A
2001	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	DE 370	live	T	A
2001	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	JP 18000	live	T	A
2001	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	MY 57	cultures	T	A
2001	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	NL 33486	live	T	A
2001	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TH 350	live	T	A
2001	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TW	XX	50	live	T	A
2001	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TW	NL	1601	live	T	A
2001	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TW 8675	live	T	A
2002	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	AU 10	live	T	A
2002	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	BR 21	live	T	A
2002	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CA 1059	live	T	A
2002	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	DE 345	live	T	A
2002	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	GB 300	live	T	A
2002	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	JP 5	live	T	A
2002	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	NL 12968	live	T	A
2002	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	NZ 60	live	T	A
2002	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TH 9950	live	T	A
2002	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TW	NL	50	live	T	A
2002	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TW 8573	live	T	A
2002	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	ZW	TH	4	live	T	A
2003	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	AU 5	live	T	A
2003	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	BR 33	live	T	A
2003	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CA 727	live	T	A
2003	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	DO 1500	live	T	A
2003	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	GB 131	live	T	A
2003	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	JP 68	live	T	A
2003	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	NL 13206	live	T	A
2003	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	NZ 300	live	T	A
2003	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TH 12	live	T	A
2003	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TW	JP	300	live	T	A
2003	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TW	NL	1150	live	T	A
2003	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TW 27476	live	T	A
2004	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	AU 30	live	T	A
2004	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	BR 55	live	T	A
2004	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CA 456	live	T	A
2004	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	DE 410	live	T	A
2004	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	DO 26500	live	T	A
2004	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	JP 172	live	T	A
2004	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	MM 6	live	T	A
2004	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	NL 7609	live	T	A
2004	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TH 4	live	T	A
2004	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TW	JP	750	live	T	A
2004	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TW 17043	live	T	A
2005	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	AU 150	live	T	A
2005	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	BR 31	live	T	A
2005	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CA 544	live	T	A
2005	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	DE 1063	live	T	D
2005	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	DO 21000	live	T	D
2005	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	GB 1	live	T	D
2005	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	JP 115	live	T	D
2005	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	NL 2273	live	T	D
2005	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TW 34678	live	T	D
2006	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	BR 30	live	T	D
2006	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CA 317	live	T	D
2006	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CA 1	live	P	D
2006	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CA	TW	14	live	T	D
2006	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	GB 1	live	T	D
2006	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	MY 345	live	T	D
2006	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	NL 33442	live	T	D
2006	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TH 22	live	T	D
2006	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TW 34751	live	T	D
2007	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CA 628	live	T	D
2007	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	DE 90	live	T	D
2007	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	HK	US	5	live	B	D
2007	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	ID 10	live	T	D
2007	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	JP 60	live	T	D
2007	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	MY 100	live	T	D
2007	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	NL 25309	live	T	D
2007	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TH 30	live	T	D
2007	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TW 16660	live	T	D
2008	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CA	US	20	live	T	D
2008	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CA 124	live	T	D
2008	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CO 2	live	T	D 
2008	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	DE 1054	live	T	D
2008	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	MY 120	live	T	D
2008	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TW 12814	live	T	D
2008	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	ZA 100	live	T	D
2009	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	MY 50	live	T	D
2010	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CA 23	live	T	D
1998	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	MY 200	live	T	D
1998	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	NZ 350	live	T	D
1999	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	BE 40	live	T	D
1999	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	NZ 68	live	T	D
2000	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	NZ 733	live	T	D
2000	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	ZA 2	live	T	D
2001	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	NZ 200	live	T	D
2002	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	MY 13	live	T	D
2002	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	NZ 550	live	T	D
2003	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	MY 2	live	T	D
2004	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	MY 28	live	T	D
2004	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	NZ 3	live	T	D
2004	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	NZ 25	live	T	D
2004	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TH 15	live	T	D
2005	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	NZ 3100	live	T	D
2005	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TH 50	live	T	D
2006	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CA 43	live	T	D
2006	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	DE 350	live	T	D
2006	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	JP 150	live	T	D
2006	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	MY 241	live	T	D
2006	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TH 98	live	T	D
2006	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TW 4	live	T	D
2007	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TH 16	live	T	D
2007	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TW 10	live	T	D
2008	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CA 451	live	T	D
2008	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TH 1396	live	T	D
2008	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TW 82	live	T	
2002	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	GB 300	roots	T	
1998	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	FR 
1999	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	BE 
1999	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CA 
1999	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CA 
1999	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CA	US 
1999	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CR 
1999	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TH 
2000	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	AU 
2000	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CA	US 
2000	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TT 
2001	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CA	US 
2001	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CA	US 
2001	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CA 
2001	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	MY 
2001	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	NZ 
2002	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	FR 
2002	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	GB 
2002	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	MY 
2002	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	NZ 
2002	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	SE 
2002	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TH 
2003	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	MY 
2004	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	HK 
2004	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	NZ 
2004	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TT 
2005	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	JE 
2005	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	JE 
2005	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	JP 
2005	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	NZ 
2006	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	TH 
2007	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	JP 
2008	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	JP	US 
2008	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	JP 
2009	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	CR 
2009	1	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	JP 
2009	2	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	JP	US 
2009	2	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	JP 
2010	2	Paphiopedilum spp.	US	JP U


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## Roth (Apr 23, 2012)

Some comments in short:

- The D surprises me... D means that the plant has been propagated from a CITES registered nursery, however the CITES book of registered nurseries, knowing the registration is a long process, does not show any nursery registered in many countries, that indeed exported successfully and imported successfully in the USA as registered nurseries. One flaw...

- It is very clear that the plants from Holger Perner ( that indeed are not yet reported, as they were traded in 2011) were not the first one to be legally imported in the USA.

- Gigantifolium is a legal species in the USA, no doubt about that. So are ooii, helenae, hangianum...

- They allowed the import of generic hybrids from Taiwan in huge quantities, as a result they have to accept that some might be from gigantifolium, intaniae or whatever...

- People speak bad about the USFWS, but it would be worthwhile to question straight the USFWS about those matters, not through some obscure AOS people, who may fine tune the answers according to their needs. 

We can see from those data that gigantifolium is legal for quite a few people in the USA as a species... I seriously doubt too that the USFWS would 'deem' or 'comment' about the plants from that nursery being the only legal ones, first because it has to be confidential matters, second because they know that indeed it is not the case, and they could eventually be prosecuted by the other nurseries managers...

Now, a personal matter. I do have, for what it's worth, a CITES export/import permit for ooii, as I exported some legally from Malaysia. I am not the only one, but it is very clear that, first many plants for me are a hobby, and second, I would never write any invoice for those. I do not want to make the work of my competitors easier... I suspect many holders of the above mentioned permit do the same ( similar to The Orchid Zone who has indeed hangianum x rothschildianum, but do not sell them, I am pretty certain they are legal, but they do not want to launder plants from Taiwan...). Some would maybe sell such plants in cash, without invoice, but they are indeed safe on the legality of their plants, shall they have any USFWS control...

One other weird thing, some Paphiopedilum were allowed to be traded as Cites Appendix 2, as some countries like to make Appendix 2 cites for hybrids comprising at least one appendix 1 species. This still stands true today, but it really surprises me that the USFWS agrees for that...


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## NYEric (Apr 23, 2012)

Thanks for these great lists. 
First of all. the fact that the first list "seized" plants even exists is annoying!!

Secondly, the fact that gigantifolium and others have been imported legally since *2001* and there is still a question of legality shows there is a disconnect between fact, rumors and understanding.


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## Roth (Apr 23, 2012)

NYEric said:


> Thanks for these great lists.
> First of all. the fact that the first list "seized" plants even exists is annoying!!
> 
> Secondly, the fact that gigantifolium and others have been imported legally since *2001* and there is still a question of legality shows there is a disconnect between fact, rumors and understanding.



Apparently most of their finds are single plants sent by EMS, or in people's suitcases by luck. I think the three large quantities are, for the dutch one, paphiopedilum pot plant sent in a shipment of mix hybrids for the flower shop market, Vietnam maybe one suitcase or one box, and Thailand looking at the size, either one box or part of shipment that was not supposed to include any paphiopedilum. 

All the seized plants are reported here actually, which means that the USFWS never found any real smuggler over the years. :evil:


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## Justin (Apr 24, 2012)

interesting. Curious how many of the adductum imports were var. anitum? Looks like USFW is still seeing them as one species? I also wonder if we will see any US nurseries offering gigantifolium soon.


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## Gcroz (Apr 24, 2012)

How is jackii viewed by USFWS? Do they look at it as a var. of malipoense, or as a distinct species?


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## SlipperFan (Apr 24, 2012)

Justin said:


> interesting. Curious how many of the adductum imports were var. anitum? Looks like USFW is still seeing them as one species? I also wonder if we will see any US nurseries offering gigantifolium soon.



I hope so!!!!!!!!


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## chrismende (Apr 30, 2012)

These lists are fascinating and a bit puzzling since I don't know all the country codes


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## NYEric (Apr 30, 2012)

CA - Canada, TH - Thailand, TW - Taiwan, JP-Japan, DE - well, you should know this one! oke: MY-Malaysia...I just am not sure what CR is; Croatia??


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## Gcroz (Apr 30, 2012)

NYEric said:


> CA - Canada, TH - Thailand, TW - Taiwan, JP-Japan, DE - well, you should know this one! oke: MY-Malaysia...I just am not sure what CR is; Croatia??



CR might be Czech Republic?


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## NYEric (Apr 30, 2012)

Could be. If I get a source there I will send USFW a box of gigantifolium and canhii!


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## gonewild (Apr 30, 2012)

CR = Costa Rica


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## Gcroz (Apr 30, 2012)

gonewild said:


> CR = Costa Rica



Boy, don't I feel like an idiot... I bet you are correct!


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## cnycharles (Apr 30, 2012)

... that's okay, it's monday  . besides, I saw much sillier things happening at work today


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## slippertalker (May 1, 2012)

I am working on a project to include all species whether imported legally or otherwise to be eligible for AOS judging. The AOS doesn't want to be caught in a battle with USFWS over legalities.

Included on these lists are plants that were cleared by APHIS and customs, but are not legal according to USFWS. As USFWS is the enforcement part of the CITES situation, even if plants cleared into the U.S., they can be seized or the consignee placed into jeopardy legally. 

My opinion is that the AOS is not a policeman and shouldn't be involved in such things, but their lawyer suggests that even judging these plants is taking "temporary" ownership places them in some legal peril. Once again, another lawyer might have an opposite arguement. If exhibited, the plant owner should be the party that has some legal danger, not the show or the AOS.

Hopefully, this can be pushed.....


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## Gcroz (May 1, 2012)

slippertalker said:


> My opinion is that the AOS is not a policeman and shouldn't be involved in such things, but their lawyer suggests that even judging these plants is taking "temporary" ownership places them in some legal peril. Once again, another lawyer might have an opposite arguement. If exhibited, the plant owner should be the party that has some legal danger, not the show or the AOS.
> 
> Hopefully, this can be pushed.....



I left the legal profession and therefore everything I say is not to be construed as legal advice or a binding legal opinion... 

I agree with you analysis. Please see my discussion on this forum (Judging Discussion) for my reasoning. I think it is an issue where the AOS lawyer is concerned in the wake of _kovachii_ and other scandals that USFWS is likely to be overly aggressive regarding these plants. It is my, educated, opinion that judging does not constitute possession or constructive possession that would cause criminal liability. But I do understand that the AOS may need to play "CYA" and that is also very reasonable, no matter how much I disagree with it.


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## Roth (May 4, 2012)

slippertalker said:


> Included on these lists are plants that were cleared by APHIS and customs, but are not legal according to USFWS. As USFWS is the enforcement part of the CITES situation, even if plants cleared into the U.S., they can be seized or the consignee placed into jeopardy legally.



The USFWS issues the import permit for App I species, so they need to know if they allow the import of those said species... As a result, if the USFWS does not agree for the import, the plants cannot be cleared. Later, the USFWS can cancel a permit if fraudulent data have been supplied ( batch of wild plants declared as artificially propagated, fake names...), but not in the case where artificially propagated plants are exported from a country within the range of that species...



> My opinion is that the AOS is not a policeman and shouldn't be involved in such things, but their lawyer suggests that even judging these plants is taking "temporary" ownership places them in some legal peril.



According to any law, this is plain crap, and I would think that their lawyer just wants to 'show off'. If I go in a car show, and declare 'that car is nice', I am not the 'temporary owner' of that car.


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## Gcroz (May 4, 2012)

Roth said:


> According to any law, this is plain crap, and I would think that their lawyer just wants to 'show off'. If I go in a car show, and declare 'that car is nice', I am not the 'temporary owner' of that car.



+1 :evil:


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## mormodes (May 4, 2012)

Sction 5.4 care and Disposition of plants in the handbook makes it clear that the exhibitor shows plants at their own risk. The AOS isn't responsible for loss or damage of plants, so how can it be argued that the AOS takes temporary ownership?

I used to hink the AOS should tke the high road and not judge illegal plants but this discussion & data is changing my mind.


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## NYEric (May 4, 2012)

The list of plants imported shows that some plants that were thought to be illegal have obviously been legally imported. How does the AOS know which ones are legal?


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