# which cross would you do?



## Ron-NY (Aug 6, 2007)

I have permission to use the pollen from the kovachii hybrids. Which of these three http://home.golden.net/~orchids/news.html would you put on Phrag Praying Mantis (longifolium x boisserianum) and why?


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## Marco (Aug 6, 2007)

Susan Decker....it would be interesting to see how the petals come out


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## Heather (Aug 6, 2007)

I would vote for Haley Decker, to get the color in there. I think the Praying Mantis shape will be dominant, and keep the longer twisty petals. 

I think Praying Mantis is a great name, by the way.


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## SlipperFan (Aug 6, 2007)

If I may be so bold, why are you wanting to use Praying Mantis?


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## gonewild (Aug 6, 2007)

Alfredo Manrique because of the Walter Schomburg heritage.


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## Kyle (Aug 6, 2007)

SlipperFan said:


> If I may be so bold, why are you wanting to use Praying Mantis?



Yeah, is there another choice? Maybe Ruby Slippers or Maria Glanz.

Kyle


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## Candace (Aug 6, 2007)

I was going to say why Praying Mantis, too?


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## Ron-NY (Aug 6, 2007)

I love my Praying Mantis...did you notice how friendly of a flower it is ??? They are even holding hands.


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## Grandma M (Aug 7, 2007)

Ron. How cool :wink:

I had to go back and look. They are holding hands. I love it.


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## goldenrose (Aug 7, 2007)

gonewild said:


> Alfredo Manrique because of the Walter Schomburg heritage.


Curious - Cape Sunset has Eric Young as a parent, same as Walter Schomburg, so why not Susan Decker?
Personally I would think both would be rather similar, there would be a linebreeding on longifolium, which one would think it would help in contributing the petal length, ease of flowering & growth.


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## Ron-NY (Aug 7, 2007)

Good line of thought. Being Cape Sunset and Walter schomburg crosses has longifolium in the parentage one of those would be the better choice with the Praying Mantis to keep the petals long. To keep size I can avoid schlimii, so that leaves me with Walter Schomburg.

Strange thing is St Ouen is 3/4 besseae and 1/4 schlimii yet Haley Decker seems to have the largest flower, especially the pouch


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## goldenrose (Aug 7, 2007)

Do you think with as far back as schlimii would be, that you'd be sacrificing size? What was the size of the individual Cape Sunset that was used to produce Susan Decker? Cape Sunset's normally don't do much for me but, I saw a real nice Cape Sunset at Acker's - size, color, shape, (I probably should have taken it!), I wouldn't hesitate to use that one with kovachii.
Would it be easier to get the longer petal on a smaller flower & then go for size next generation? It would be so nice to get EVERYTHING you want to first time but is that likely? It sure will be fun finding out!


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## Drorchid (Aug 7, 2007)

I personally would also not use Praying Mantis, as you will result in large plants with long inflorescences. I think instead you want to try to get the plants in the next generation to be smaller (with large flowers) so they are more manageable for most home growers.

But if you would use Praying Manits I would use Phrag. Susan Decker, as that cross already has down swept petals. I would use the other crosses with besseae type hybrids to create more "rounder" shaped flowers.

Robert


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## NYEric (Aug 7, 2007)

Haley Decker - color.


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## littlefrog (Aug 7, 2007)

Something with sargentianum in it. Trust me...


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## Ron-NY (Aug 7, 2007)

One advantage is that I don't have to refrain to one cross. I can do as many as I like and can afford :wink:

There is a schlimii in bloom in the greenhouse but it isn't mine. That would bring down the plant size. 

I do have pearcei X sargentianum = Phrag Patti MacHale, there is one flower left. It is a sequential bloomer that blooms over a long period of time, at least 7 months. It has been n bloom since January. That may be a good trait to bring in.


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## SlipperFan (Aug 7, 2007)

Ron-NY said:


> ...I do have pearcei X sargentianum = Phrag Patti MacHale, there is one flower left. It is a sequential bloomer that blooms over a long period of time, at least 7 months. It has been n bloom since January. That may be a good trait to bring in.


Go for it, Ron. I think that will be a good cross.


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## littlefrog (Aug 8, 2007)

Actually (Dr Rob back me up on this, I may be an idiot), sargentianum (or whatever it is called now) brings some excellent color enhancement to the party. Just look what it does for besseae. You wouldn't have Andean Fire without sargentianum, or Jason Fisher.

I'm stunned that I haven't seen sargentianum x kovachii offered for sale yet. That would be my first choice to make, if I had a blooming kovachii, anyway.

Edit: Andean Fire is made with lindleyanum, I'm thinking Mem. Dick Clements. Same thing, actually.


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## Kyle (Aug 8, 2007)

littlefrog said:


> Actually (Dr Rob back me up on this, I may be an idiot), sargentianum (or whatever it is called now) brings some excellent color enhancement to the party. Just look what it does for besseae. You wouldn't have Andean Fire without sargentianum, or Jason Fisher.
> 
> I'm stunned that I haven't seen sargentianum x kovachii offered for sale yet. That would be my first choice to make, if I had a blooming kovachii, anyway.



I 100% agree with you, Rob. I think sargentianum would be one my first choices if I had kovachii pollen.

Your logic and reasons for using it parallel mine. 

The reason no one has made the cross could be that sargentianum isn't native to Peru, therefore the two companies doing crosses don't have access. Just a thought.

Ron, another posibility is to self it, maybe get some more kovachii genes expressed in the flower.

Kyle


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## Ron-NY (Aug 8, 2007)

Kyle I have access to the pollen but not to the blooming plants to use in breeding. Once mine bloom then i have that option. I sure hope that the last flower on my Patti McHale is still in place when I get to the greenhouse tonight. The interesting thing about the Alfredo Manrique is the bud count is higher on the first bloom plants than the other to crosses. The current one blooming, the one that was posted here, has 3 buds. Most of the Haley and Suzanne Deckers were one bud occasionally 2. 

I am just venturing into Phrag breeding and have much to learn...besides sargentianum intensifying color...are there other breeding info on other species that I would find helpful in making future decisions? I have only done 2 previous Phrag crosses and only one of them took.


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## Drorchid (Aug 9, 2007)

littlefrog said:


> Actually (Dr Rob back me up on this, I may be an idiot), sargentianum (or whatever it is called now) brings some excellent color enhancement to the party. Just look what it does for besseae. You wouldn't have Andean Fire without sargentianum, or Jason Fisher.
> 
> I'm stunned that I haven't seen sargentianum x kovachii offered for sale yet. That would be my first choice to make, if I had a blooming kovachii, anyway.
> 
> Edit: Andean Fire is made with lindleyanum, I'm thinking Mem. Dick Clements. Same thing, actually.



Yes, you are right. You let out the big secret......... In my mind I was already planning to cross kovachii to sargentianum, and cross the resulting cross back to kovachii (and going to name it Phrag. Robert Quene), it will be deep red in color (similar to the Phrag. Windsor Castle that got awarded) and about 10 times larger than Phrag Jason Fischer.....The race is on who can create it the first........I think it will be the best Phrag hybrid that will be out there.

Robert


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## Drorchid (Aug 9, 2007)

Ron-NY said:


> I am just venturing into Phrag breeding and have much to learn...besides sargentianum intensifying color...are there other breeding info on other species that I would find helpful in making future decisions? I have only done 2 previous Phrag crosses and only one of them took.



With Phrag crosses I have noticed there is only a small window available of when to make the crosses. I always try to make the cross when the pollen is still fresh, about 1 to 2 days after the flower is fully open. Also the flower that you are pollinating should be pretty fresh (about 1 to 2 days fully open). If you wait too long the success rate of pollination goes down.

Robert


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## SlipperFan (Aug 9, 2007)

Good job, Robert! I hope to someday purchase a Phrag. Robert Quene from you. You are an excellent breeder, in my very humble opinion. Probably among the best.


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## rdlsreno (Aug 10, 2007)

Phrag. Haley Decker since I like besseae shape the other cross has lindlyanum and longifolium in its background.

Ramon


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## Ron-NY (Aug 10, 2007)

I crossed the Phrag Alfredo Manrique onto Phrag Patti McHale (pearcei x sargentianum) Hoping to get more intense color, longer blooming period, increased flower size and increased bud count. Let's hope it takes. I have one more bud left and there is still one more bud on the Alfredo Manrique


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## Drorchid (Aug 10, 2007)

Good Job :clap::clap:

Hope it takes!!

Robert


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## Ron-NY (Aug 10, 2007)

thank you for the advice...I a novice at breeding Phrags

I have only done one previous Phrag cross. Dominianum 'Bob Mac' onto my Schroederae (caudatum X Sedenii)


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## Scooby5757 (Aug 10, 2007)

Bravo! :clap: I hope there is another thread starting soon from pollination to flask...oke:


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## NYEric (Aug 11, 2007)

LI Jane had that [outrageous] sargentianum that she posted here in bloom for Parkside fest; maybe she'd do a pod?


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## goldenrose (Aug 11, 2007)

Good decision Ron!
Good suggestion Eric!


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## Ron-NY (Aug 11, 2007)

found this too late. I am on LI at the moment. I had to come down to attend a funeral.


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