# LED flat panel lighting question



## junglejim (May 12, 2013)

Is anyone using flat panel lighting to grow orchids? It maybe an option. I understand in 1-2 years metal halide and sodium bulbs will no longer be made. I grow in the basement with no natural light.


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## ehanes7612 (May 12, 2013)

where did you hear that? as of now , there is no incentive for pot growers to use anything but cheap metal halides and sodium bulbs ...and as long as there are pot growers (as well as non pot growing hydroponics),these bulbs will continue to be made ..because LEDs cant match them...you may have heard about cities changing to LED bulbs for street lights and are confusing the two uses(or the incandescent ban act does include one type of metal halide).there was an article in Orchids a while back about the effectiveness of LED 35 watt bulbs ..i forget who sells them .orchids by hausermann maybe


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## junglejim (May 12, 2013)

When I was reordering bulbs that had dimmed from OL a couple of weeks ago. I was tempted to order another year's supply and asked how long will you be keeping these in stock? I was lead to believe they won't be made down the near future. Jerry said he would have them for probably 2 years. However most people are switching over to LEDs. That's why I'm looking into these. Menards carry them. A lot of light for little watts.


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## junglejim (May 12, 2013)

What I was ordering was the high pressure sodium 400 watt Son T. That's how the conversation got started. Menards are now carrying flat panel LED lights and I would like a brighter light I think. These lights are now the "white light" and not the blue and red hues that some growers have been using.


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## DavidCampen (May 12, 2013)

junglejim said:


> I understand in 1-2 years metal halide and sodium bulbs will no longer be made.



I find that hard to believe. 

Also, HPS and MH are a bit more efficient at converting electric power into light useful for photosynthesis than are LED and HPS and MH cost _much_ less than LED.


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## gonewild (May 12, 2013)

HPS and MH bulbs are what most warehouse and industrial complexes are lighted with and I doubt they will be switching to LEDs in the next couple years.


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## MorandiWine (May 13, 2013)

David can you please expand on your statement about the efficiency of conversion for photosynthesis? Seems like a pretty bold statement since so many people have had great success (including myself) after switching from HPS, Halide and T-5 lights.

Not only do I use LEDS for orchid growing but I have been using LEDS for growing corals. The growth rates are exponentially higher with LEDS than with the other lights. If the lights are poor at energy conversion then the organisms grown under them would not thrive, right?
An example of growths with Paphs and LEDS....I bought a couple stonei seedlings, one went in a GH and one went under LEDS. The GH seedling has grown a little and sent out a single new leaf whereas it counterpart has sent out four new leaves and a new lead. Almost the exact same with hangianum that was bought as seedlings four months ago. Thriving under LEDS.

Tyler


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## DavidCampen (May 13, 2013)

MorandiWine said:


> David can you please expand on your statement about the efficiency of conversion for photosynthesis? Seems like a pretty bold statement since so many people have had great success (including myself) after switching from HPS, Halide and T-5 lights.


Not bold at all. I can give you quantitative values for the PAR (Photosyntheticly Active Radiation) flux from different light sources. I will go look up the references where I have posted them on OrchidBoard.



> Not only do I use LEDS for orchid growing but I have been using LEDS for growing corals. The growth rates are exponentially higher with LEDS than with the other lights. If the lights are poor at energy conversion then the organisms grown under them would not thrive, right?


I did not say that they were "poor at energy conversion". I said "HPS and MH are a bit more efficient at converting electric power into light useful for photosynthesis than are LED". T5 fluorescent, LED, HPS and MH are all within (much) closer than a factor of 2 of one another in efficiency.



> An example of growths with Paphs and LEDS....I bought a couple stonei seedlings, one went in a GH and one went under LEDS. The GH seedling has grown a little and sent out a single new leaf whereas it counterpart has sent out four new leaves and a new lead. Almost the exact same with hangianum that was bought as seedlings four months ago. Thriving under LEDS.


Then the same would have happened using T5 fluorescent instead of LED.

I am using 200 watts (true watts, not the marketing hype equivalent watts that you see in most LED advertisements) of LEDs as supplemental lighting and I have not seen any magical effects.


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## DavidCampen (May 13, 2013)

Here is a post with PPF values for various light sources.
http://www.orchidboard.com/communit...eresting-links-about-lighting.html#post554104
"_*using Philips data we have these PPF (micromoles per watt-second) values for different light sources:
1.2 - Fluorescent
1.8 - Deep Red LED
1.9 - HPS *_"


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## Garr (May 13, 2013)

To the best of my knowledge, LED fixtures have the highest energy to PAR light conversion rate (efficiency) available of all the lighting options currently available. I have four complex PAR spectrum LED fixtures each drawing 420 watts of current with PPF values of 400 under the center of the light at a ride height of 48". This is enough light to bloom P. randsii, P. phillipinense, P. rothschildianum etc. As an added benefit, the fixtures produce little heat as the energy conversion is so efficient. BTW, it's incandescent lamps which are slated for withdrawal from sale and not HPS or MH.


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## DavidCampen (May 13, 2013)

Garr said:


> To the best of my knowledge, LED fixtures have the highest energy to PAR light conversion rate (efficiency) available of all the lighting options currently available.


The data I gave in the post above contradicts your statement.



> with PPF values of 400 under the center of the light


The flux under some small area does not mean anything. For the number to mean anything it needs to be the integrated value over the illuminated area. Also you need to specify units, PPF is not a dimensionless number.


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## Garr (May 13, 2013)

DavidCampen said:


> The data I gave in the post above contradicts your statement./
> 
> Philips own data indicates these PPF (micromoles per watt-second) values for different light sources:
> 1.2 - Fluorescent
> ...



PPF or Photosynthetic Photon Flux is defined as µmol photons/m2/second so it is anything but dimensionless. I use a Li-Cor LI250A photoradiometer. Yes, any given reading is just in that spot in three dimensional space. One needs to take several readings in several different axes in order to more accurately establish average illumination.

A quick bit of unsolicited advise to Paph growers contemplating a switch to commercial intensity LED fixtures. These lights are bright...intensely so. They are an order of magnitude brighter than fluorescent bulbs. The human eye is poorly equipped to accurately judge the intensity of PAR light as are most light meters! The pink/purple light that they cast is deceptively dim. For the plants however, it is anything but! Underestimating how bright the light is and moving the plants too close to the fixture will result in light scorched leaves in fairly short order. If you don`t have an appropriate meter, start out very conservatively and watch your plants closely to avoid heartbreaking consequences.

I have mapped my own grow room for light intensity and have located plants based on this map. De-flasked seedlings all the way at the edge of the light footprint followed by P. mastersianum, P. gigantifolium gradually moving towards the center where P. drurii and P. phillipinense among others do well.


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## DavidCampen (May 13, 2013)

Garr said:


> PPF or Photosynthetic Photon Flux is defined as µmol photons/m2/second so it is anything but dimensionless.


Exactly, yet you gave a meaningless value for a measurement at a single point



> I use a Li-Cor LI250A photoradiometer. Yes, any given reading is just in that spot in three dimensional space. One needs to take several readings in several different axes in order to more accurately establish average illumination.


One needs to take readings in mulitple locations for the value to have _any_ meaning.



> A quick bit of unsolicited advise to Paph growers contemplating a switch to commercial intensity LED fixtures. These lights are bright...intensely so. They are an order of magnitude brighter than fluorescent bulbs.


If you are claiming that LEDs are an order of magnitude more efficient than T5 fluorescent in converting electrical power into PAR then that is an absurdly inaccurate statement.


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## Garr (May 13, 2013)

DavidCampen said:


> Exactly, yet you gave a meaningless value for a measurement at a single point
> 
> 
> One needs to take readings in mulitple locations for the value to have _any_ meaning.
> ...


What I said was that _They are an order of magnitude *brighter* than fluorescent bulbs_...not more efficient.


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## DavidCampen (May 13, 2013)

Garr said:


> What I said was that _They are an order of magnitude *brighter* than fluorescent bulbs_...not more efficient.


So that statement then has nothing to do with their effectiveness at converting electrical energy into PAR. I just wanted to clarify that. 

Yes, an LED may be emitting on the order of a watt of light from an area 1 millimeter square so the amount of light emitted per unit area (brightness) is greater than a fluorescent light but the amount of electrical power required to produce 1 watt of light is about the same for LED or fluorescent.


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## Garr (May 13, 2013)

DavidCampen said:


> So that statement then has nothing to do with their effectiveness at converting electrical energy into PAR. I just wanted to clarify that.
> 
> Yes, an LED may be emitting on the order of a watt of light from an area 1 millimeter square so the amount of light emitted per unit area (brightness) is greater than a fluorescent light but the amount of electrical power required to produce 1 watt of light is about the same for LED or fluorescent.



As a stand alone statement, you are absolutely correct. As far as I know, the state of the LED chip technology is now achieving illumination levels of well over 200 lumens per watt input. This is strictly for the chip itself. What confounds the situation is that this same chip requires a circuit board where the LED chip is housed along with the other chips, a driver that rectifies and transforms current coming from the wall, optics that direct the light to the right place and a housing that dissipates the heat generated by the fixture. Efficiency losses along the way in the form of heat conspire to reduce this energy conversion. Fluorescent technology has been steadily improving to the point where now the two technologies are about neck and neck when you look at the whole fixture in both cases.

Given that the efficiency of the two technologies are comparable, the grower needs to evaluate all the ancillary factors when investigating lighting options i.e. initial light intensity, decay of light intensity over time, spectral output, heat generation, light distribution over footprint, maintenance costs, ease of installation and how much room the fixture occupies overhead (this is an important consideration when using the light to augment natural light) among others. As this is a rapidly evolving technology, some LED fixture manufacturers will offer an upgrade package to the newer technology as it becomes available ensuring that the customer isn't left behind as a superior product make the current technology obsolete.

This debate will continue to rage for some time. No doubt over time, fixtures will become smaller, more efficient, spread light more evenly over the footprint and so on. For the time being, I've made my choice and am very pleased with the results.

David, on another subject, what are you growing and how?


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## junglejim (May 13, 2013)

Back to my original thread. Is anyone out there using flat panel LED lights for growing orchids? This would be sole light source in a basement.


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## DavidCampen (May 13, 2013)

I have about 160 orchid plants, I focus mostly on species and I have a lot of cattleyas. I have about 40 different species of cattleya and also laelia, encyclia, epindendrum etc. I have about half a dozen paphiopedilum species - henryanum, venustum, delenatii, barbatum are the ones that I can remember off hand. I also have a few each of gongora, stanhopea, angraecum, phalaenopsis, dendrochilum etc.

These links have a couple photos of my orchid room. I started constructing it about 2 years ago. These photos were taken about a year ago, I have a lot more plants now.
http://www.orchidboard.com/communit...essure-1000-psi-fog-systems-3.html#post506771

http://www.orchidboard.com/communit...s/60598-homemade-led-lightbar.html#post505567


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## junglejim (May 13, 2013)

Thanks David, nice pics. I'm interested in the flat panel LED's lights that emit white light, not the red,blue, purple hues. Lowes and Menards are now carrying them. They are also called LED plant panel troffers. They are used for recessed lighting. Orchids Limited started carrying them . These lights area "spin off of flat panel TV's " according to my initial conversation with OL, where I got first interested in replacing sodium and metal halide bulbs.


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## Garr (May 13, 2013)

junglejim said:


> Back to my original thread. Is anyone out there using flat panel LED lights for growing orchids? This would be sole light source in a basement.



Jim,
My grow room is in a two car garage and uses LEDs as sole source light. Each fixture has 240 - 3 watt LEDS in 12 orbs drawing 360 watts of current. These fixtures are designed for commercial greenhouses and measure 21"x16"x3". Is this what you mean by flat panel?


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## ALToronto (May 13, 2013)

I'm not sure if the spectrum of a household-grade LED panel would be appropriate for orchids (or any plants). My former neighbour had a flat light panel for SAD treatment - Seasonal Affective Disorder - a form of depression that affects some people in the winter and on cloudy days, when we get diminished light levels. Those lights have a higher UV proportion and have a spectrum that closely matches sunlight. If you're going to look outside of plant-growing lights for a wider variety of fixtures, you should look into these SAD treatment panels.


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## Garr (May 13, 2013)

junglejim said:


> Back to my original thread. Is anyone out there using flat panel LED lights for growing orchids? This would be sole light source in a basement.





DavidCampen said:


> I have about 160 orchid plants, I focus mostly on species and I have a lot of cattleyas. I have about 40 different species of cattleya and also laelia, encyclia, epindendrum etc. I have about half a dozen paphiopedilum species - henryanum, venustum, delenatii, barbatum are the ones that I can remember off hand. I also have a few each of gongora, stanhopea, angraecum, phalaenopsis, dendrochilum etc.
> 
> These links have a couple photos of my orchid room. I started constructing it about 2 years ago. These photos were taken about a year ago, I have a lot more plants now.
> http://www.orchidboard.com/communit...essure-1000-psi-fog-systems-3.html#post506771
> ...


 Thanks for the pictures David. It's a very clean set-up. It looks like you're using the LEDs to supplement natural light. I wish I had a space like yours but I'm in a sealed grow room in a converted two car garage so the LEDs are my only light source.


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## Garr (May 13, 2013)

ALToronto said:


> I'm not sure if the spectrum of a household-grade LED panel would be appropriate for orchids (or any plants). My former neighbour had a flat light panel for SAD treatment - Seasonal Affective Disorder - a form of depression that affects some people in the winter and on cloudy days, when we get diminished light levels. Those lights have a higher UV proportion and have a spectrum that closely matches sunlight. If you're going to look outside of plant-growing lights for a wider variety of fixtures, you should look into these SAD treatment panels.



I agree with Al on this. It's PAR light that you want. Plants and people don't respond to the same spectrum. An LED fixture not configured specifically for growing plants will provide wavelengths which are of little or no use by plants. Although I am growing exclusively under LED lights, I don't particularly like the pink/purple color rendering so I have ceiling mounted fluorescent fixtures which I have on anytime I'm in the room watering, re-potting, de-flasking and so on.


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## junglejim (May 13, 2013)

Garr said:


> Jim,
> My grow room is in a two car garage and uses LEDs as sole source light. Each fixture has 240 - 3 watt LEDS in 12 orbs drawing 360 watts of current. These fixtures are designed for commercial greenhouses and measure 21"x16"x3". Is this what you mean by flat panel?



They do look like the SAD lights that people sit next to in the winter as mentioned. They are boxy and go into lowered ceilings like in hallways. You can get the LEDs in a5000 K option. Bulbs.com, OL, enviroasis are carrying them. They emit white light.


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## MorandiWine (May 13, 2013)

Jim, 

I have a grow room that doubles as a fish room as well as a green house in the back yard. I use the all white LEDs from Apache Tech. Contrary to what was said about LEDs in this thread I feel that they are far superior to all other forms of artificial light. If you have any questions about them please feel free to PM me as to not muddy the thread.

Tyler


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## DavidCampen (May 13, 2013)

You mean like these:
https://www.orchidweb.com/products/led-flat-panel-2x2x3~3174.html

I don't see what advantage they will have over T5 fluorescent.


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## MorandiWine (May 13, 2013)

Speaking from experience with that particular panel and other like it, you get what you pay for. Cheap LEDs = sub par (pun intended) lighting. Not all LEDs are alike and that is where many studies and almost all nay-sayers go wrong. Likes like comparing a Yugo to a BMW after driving only the Yugo saying that it handles horribly so the BMW would also handle miserably. A good quality chip will produce good quality light energy. 
This all being said, use a light that does what it is supposed to do and has a track record. I went with Apache because I used them for growing corals and then went to the Stanford research greenhouses and saw the exact same lights being used for agriculture. Asked my friend who is an assistant there and he said that they have cut grow time almost in half and dont burn the plants like HPS and MH. All things I assumed after using them for coral and seeing incredible results after removing the 400 watt HQI's. 
Sooooo i let results show me the way and not rely on possible biased studies on a multilayered (in available quality) type of light.
I am sure that David is going to jump in and tell me i am wrong but the proof is in the pudding. I dont do drugs, just wine. So I am not imagining things, it is for real.
Tyler


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## naoki (May 13, 2013)

Garr, so your 360W LED fixture can cover the entire 2-car garage? Which brand/model are you using? Or did you build it? Is it noisy?


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## littlefrog (May 14, 2013)

Jim,

I don't recommend the square panels to anyone anymore, it seems like a good idea, none of them hold up to actual use. After a year, or less, they almost always start to fail.

I have had good luck with other types, and can offer some suggestions by PM. I have been growing under almost exclusively LEDs for two full winters (and paphs and phrags longer because they stay inside in the summer). Best thing ever? Probably not, but I am not switching back, just upgrading tech as it comes along.

(Small) commercial scale, my entire utility bill for several thousand plants, including both light and heat, is less than 500 per month in January...

Rob


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## Garr (May 14, 2013)

naoki said:


> Garr, so your 360W LED fixture can cover the entire 2-car garage? Which brand/model are you using? Or did you build it? Is it noisy?


Naoki, 
My grow room is 16'x12' built inside a two car garage. One, 360w fixture covers a 2'x4' area so two fixtures cover a 4'x8' bench at a ride height of 48". The model is a Helios 420, a Chinese made fixture. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the technology keeps galloping along yielding higher performance lights while the prices continue to drop. If I were shopping today, I would check out LumiGrow http://www.lumigrow.com/products/pro-series-greenhouse-lights/, a California based manufacturer. 

Back in the early 80's, I wrote an article in the now defunct Canadian Orchid Journal on growing under fluorescent lights. Although still a perfectly viable option for growing out flasks, compots and seedlings, growing and blooming mature Paphs, especially some of the larger multi-florals is problematic under fluorescent lights. It can be done but heat buildup becomes a real issue. The price spread between between the Chinese products and the NA made units has been dropping to the point where it's starting to make sense.

Controlling heat build up in these fixtures is important so all of these fixtures use pancake fans similar to the fans used to cool PCs. The light sounds like a large PC running.


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## DavidCampen (May 14, 2013)

Garr said:


> Naoki,
> My grow room is 16'x12' built inside a two car garage. One, 360w fixture covers a 2'x4' area so two fixtures cover a 4'x8' bench at a ride height of 48". The model is a Helios 420, a Chinese made fixture. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the technology keeps galloping along yielding higher performance lights while the prices continue to drop. If I were shopping today, I would check out LumiGrow http://www.lumigrow.com/products/pro-series-greenhouse-lights/, a California based manufacturer.


It is too bad that LumiGrow refuses to give actual PAR measurements, prefering marketing hype instead. I would have hoped that they could have figured out how to use a Li-Cor Quantum PAR Sensor.

They torture the facts a bit to be able to conclude that their fixtures are 2 to 3 times more efficient than HID.


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## DavidCampen (May 14, 2013)

littlefrog said:


> Jim,
> 
> I don't recommend the square panels to anyone anymore, it seems like a good idea, none of them hold up to actual use. After a year, or less, they almost always start to fail.
> Rob



That is a significant issue with LED fixtures. Unlike a fluorescent or HPS fixture, building an energy efficient and long lasting LED fixture requires a significant amount of knowledge and engineering design effort. It is easy though to build an LED fixture that will put out some light for a while but is very inefficient and wont last long - there are a lot of junky LED fixtures like that coming out of China.


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## Garr (May 14, 2013)

DavidCampen said:


> It is too bad that LumiGrow refuses to give actual PAR measurements, prefering marketing hype instead. I would have hoped that they could have figured out how to use a Li-Cor Quantum PAR Sensor.
> 
> They torture the facts a bit to be able to conclude that their fixtures are 2 to 3 times more efficient than HID.



They have figured out how to use a Li-Cor quantum PAR sensor but generally won't share the data. And yes, it is unfortunate that they somehow feel the need to distort the facts when a strong case can be built for the technology without resorting to smoke and mirrors. David, please email me through contacts and I'll send you complete data in µmol/m2*sec for both the 325 and the 650 models as well as footprint and ride height data. This web site will not allow me to paste an image otherwise I would post it here.

As regards Chinese fixtures, the key to satisfaction is to understand what you're shopping for and a reputable distributor who will stand behind the product after the point of sale. The far east does not have a corner on the market for junk any more than NA has the market cornered for high quality. There's good stuff and bad stuff everywhere.


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## DavidCampen (May 14, 2013)

Garr said:


> They have figured out how to use a Li-Cor quantum PAR sensor but generally won't share the data.


It is easy to see why they hide that information since it would show that their LED fixtures are no more efficient than MH or HPS in producing PAR.


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## junglejim (May 14, 2013)

DavidCampen said:


> That is a significant issue with LED fixtures. Unlike a fluorescent or HPS fixture, building an energy efficient and long lasting LED fixture requires a significant amount of knowledge and engineering design effort. It is easy though to build an LED fixture that will put out some light for a while but is very inefficient and wont last long - there are a lot of junky LED fixtures like that coming out of China.



The metal halide and sodium bulbs are not lasting long like they used to. They may be from China also. Thanks to everyone for your time and thoughts. I will slow down from an impulsive buy.


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