# Status of Paph. thaianum



## Gcroz (Oct 14, 2012)

I have a 3 seperate questions regarding Paph. thaianum and the net seems a bit murky on the subject, so I thought I'd ask them here:

1. Is Paph. thaianum a distinct species or a variety of niveum? Has this been settled?

2. Has the Thai government allowed for the legal (and CITES compliant) export of any plants of Paph. thaianum?

3. What is the status of the wild population of Paph. thaianum in situ?


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## Gcroz (Oct 14, 2012)

Well, actually, I guess that's 4 questions...


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## cnycharles (Oct 14, 2012)

Paph thaianum (a true species) flasks were approved for legal export from the country of thailand, to the u.s. (and other countries, but we're talking the u.s. here). Flasks were sent here, though most plants did not survive the flasks I knew about. There were other flasks of thaianum sent to the u.s. that I don't know how many survived... those who flask thaianum from other countries that want to send them through the mail need to come up with a bottle design that prevents movement of the seedlings, and use a final agar replate that is very solid, even if it won't keep the plants alive for a long time. If it all stays in a clump and doesn't slosh around and get liquid on top of the plants, then they very well could be sent successfully.

that all said, I believe Brett had told me that flasks of thaianum had been sent to japan, and the carrier service was so excellent that plants survived shipping quite well (the box was always kept 'right side up', not kicked thrown etc and didn't sit in customs waiting for the local mail service to deign to come along and pick it up...)


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## Gcroz (Oct 14, 2012)

So how does thaianum work with the rules for AOS judges stated in the first post here?

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27015&highlight=legal


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## cnycharles (Oct 14, 2012)

The originals were likely imported as niveum, whenever niveum was imported. I would assume that this would be a pre-1990 import, or a post-1990 as niveum. So, this means that I have no idea 

I think it was stated before that the AOS didn't seem to have the same ideas as to what was actually legal or not as compared to what the fish and wildlife thinks is legal, and the usda etc etc. I would just enter it to show, pointing out that it was a species imported as niveum and legal plants (plants exported legally from thailand) have now entered the country from thailand


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## Gcroz (Oct 14, 2012)

cnycharles said:


> The originals were likely imported as niveum, whenever niveum was imported. I would assume that this would be a pre-1990 import, or a post-1990 as niveum. So, this means that I have no idea



Ah ha... so the next question would be, if it was legally imported as niveum and post 1990 it was determined to be a distinct species, does that change it's legal status as a "post 1990" plant, or is it afforded the distinction of being pre 1990. Also, according to Orchids Wiki it was described and published as of 2006...


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## cnycharles (Oct 14, 2012)

I guess if we go by the 'letter' of the letter from the aos, then it is illegal until they decide to write up an alteration, if they feel that it was introduced as niveum and then described later as thaianum, and want to do anything about it


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## Roth (Oct 14, 2012)

Thaianum is legal, as the Thai CITES allowed for export of both flasks and plants, end of the story.

As an aside, thaianum was known for ages as a very poor form of niveum, I remember having seen those around 1994 in Bangkok already, and though that these were really ugly niveums. It gained a lot of fame and value after it has been described as a new species ( which it is, indeed...).


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## Hakone (Oct 15, 2012)

thaianum is legal in EU with CITES paper


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## Gcroz (Oct 16, 2012)

Ok, so it would seem that most feel that it would be legal in the US. The question then becomes, why isn't it seen more often?

Also, I'd like to know what thaianum's wil;d population status is. And I don't mean I want the blanket CITES idea, but what is the reality?


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## Rick (Oct 16, 2012)

Gcroz said:


> Ok, so it would seem that most feel that it would be legal in the US. The question then becomes, why isn't it seen more often?



I only got my flask last year, which I think was about a year after we started seeing blooming thaianum on this forum (and all from other countries).

I lost about 1/2 of my flask from shipping trauma, but still have about 10 doing OK and growing. At this rate they may bloom in other couple of years, and then I'll post some pics.:wink:

But as far as US importations go, there's probably a couple hundred seedlings alive in the US and doubtfull any significant numbers of BS adults. I doubt that anyone is that keen on showing off the seedlings that are only recently imported.

If there were pre 1990 thaianum (as ugly niveum) they are most likely dead, discarded from neglect, or bred with other things until not recognizable as thaianum.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Oct 16, 2012)

Many years ago I bloomed an ugly niveum...since deceased. The plant itself was smaller than most niveum, though not as small as thaianum. The flower was extremely small, smaller than any brachy..in fact, any other paph I've seen aside from maybe a bad primulinum. I looked up the photo I had, out of curiosity. It was just an ugly niveum.


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## cnycharles (Oct 17, 2012)

there are two different points; you ask about legal with the aos, and legal in the u.s. . they are legal in the u.s., but it seems not with the aos, which doesn't include them in their 'acceptable' list


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## gonewild (Oct 17, 2012)

cnycharles said:


> they are legal in the u.s., but it seems not with the aos, which doesn't include them in their 'acceptable' list



The AOS rule maker's thaianum must have all died.


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## SlipperFan (Oct 17, 2012)

gonewild said:


> The AOS rule maker's thaianum must have all died.


:rollhappy:


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## s1214215 (Aug 3, 2016)

thaianum is commonly and legally available in Australia. I have heard Thai CITES recently have clamped down on the export of 20+ Paph species, thaianum being one. However, they can not make their documents retrospective. Once it has legally been exported, and it has been. Those particular plants are legal. Those are the words of CITES here in Australia to me. I have many many plants of this species, all from flask. 

Likewise I have some canhii seedlings, that I got a Thai phyto for and CITES here has accepted the document and said its legal. I have the emails. It was bemusing however that some jealous people then tried to make up rumours to try to disprove those seedlings.. Nothing like jealous orchid nuts.


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## dodidoki (Aug 4, 2016)

I have several thaianum seedlings, I got them on agar so I think it should be absolutely legal here, in EU. In US, I don't know...


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## cnycharles (Aug 4, 2016)

I imported thaianum flasks from Brett so they are legal here in the us. Unfortunately the delivery companies trashed the contents from poor handling so none survived that I had


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## troy (Aug 4, 2016)

I saw a thaianum for sale at trader joes in sac. Ca. I thought it was niveum till I looked at the tag, I didn't get it because the flower was so small


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## NYEric (Aug 5, 2016)

troy said:


> I saw a thaianum for sale at trader joes in sac. Ca. I thought it was niveum till I looked at the tag, I didn't get it because the flower was so small


After all the difficulty I personally experienced with those original flask shipments, reading this is amazing! !!


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## s1214215 (Aug 6, 2016)

They are what they are Troy, a mini paph species. I love them.


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## troy (Aug 6, 2016)

I guess I should have got it just to resell it was 9.99 the flower was so small, I guess theres teacup paph fanatics that would like it


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## NYEric (Aug 7, 2016)

Yes, if you see more of them I would take some.


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