# Letter from Chuck Acker



## suss16 (Feb 15, 2007)

Did anyone else receive his letter? His kovachii flask/compots are not true kovachii. Included is a letter of apology from Manolo Arias.


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## gore42 (Feb 15, 2007)

I didn't receive the letter from him, but I wondered whether that might be the case, considering how fast they were growing and the sudden disappearance of them on his website. That's too bad... I hope he didn't get screwed financially.

- Matt


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## Heather (Feb 15, 2007)

Well, I think several of us expected this might be the case. 
What did they end up being? 

Was Orchids Ltd. affected as well? I thought all those flasks came back at on the same trip.


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## kentuckiense (Feb 15, 2007)

Wow. That's big. I'd be interested to hear about the Orchids Ltd. plants as well.


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## BotanicaLtd (Feb 15, 2007)

Is that where Glen Decker/Piping Rocks are from as well? We decided not to be on the "bleeding edge" with kovachii...and I've not followed along with all the news, but weren't all the "legal" plants supposed to be from five original parent plants? Please set me straight if I'm wrong.

Regarding Chuck Acker---he's one of the most honest and trustworthy orchid people we've ever dealt with. I agree with Matt---I hope he didn't lose out financially!


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## gore42 (Feb 15, 2007)

Chuck Acker and Jerry Fischer traveled together to South America to pick up their kovachii flasks; they are from the same source. I can only speculate what this means about Orchids Ltds seedlings, but I'm sure that Jason or someone else from the organization can fill us in.

Glen Decker, however, got his from a separate source, so this doesn't call his into question. I got some from Glen Decker... I think I'll go check on them  

BTW, I can't agree more about Chuck Acker's honesty and integrity. He is the best Phrag person to deal with in the business, in my experience.

As Ever,
Matthew Gore


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## Heather (Feb 15, 2007)

Yeah - as I understand it the two groups were :

Manuel Arias (Legal Peruvian grower) - Acker and Fischer

Alfredo Manrique (Legal Peruvian grower) - Partners: Glen Decker, Peter Croezen (Canada), Fritz Schomburg


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## suss16 (Feb 15, 2007)

Sorry I did not provide this earlier. Included with the letters was a check for the deposit. And yes, Chuck's integrity is beyond reproach. He handled a very difficult situation with class and honesty. I will always go to him for flasks.


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## kentuckiense (Feb 15, 2007)

suss16 said:


> Included with the letters was a check for the deposit.


Classy.


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## Ron-NY (Feb 15, 2007)

suss16 said:


> Did anyone else receive his letter? His kovachii flask/compots are not true kovachii. Included is a letter of apology from Manolo Arias.



I wonder what happened I know when I saw the seedlings they didn't look like kovachii but more like boisserianum. 

He must have been hurt financially, He had to return all those deposits. Is there hybrids effected as well?


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## Jason Fischer (Feb 15, 2007)

*kovachii problems*

I went down to Peru with Chuck but I purchased several different kovachii sibs and hybrids. One particular kovachii sib cross appears to be different in leaf habit so Chuck and I are now doing DNA sequencing on the one in question plus some other kovachii sibs as well. This testing is being done by 2 different labs. The tests have not been completed yet and the interpretation of them should reveal the true identity. I must say though that the sequencing results are not always 100 percent correct and I will explain this later in an upcoming post. We are confident that the tests will help us understand what this particular cross is or is not. 

Fortunately I have enough of some of the other sib crosses that I know to be true so substitutions can be made if indeed there is a problem. Chuck did not want to wait for the results as he is heading out of the country on vacation about the time he was to release the first plants. Chuck really only had the one sib cross that did well for him so he does not have the option of replacing them with another sib cross, at least not at this time. If there were mistakes Manolo has said to us that he will stand behind his sale and get us true kovachii replacement plants for those we received which may be wrong.. Unfortunately it will may be spring before Chuck and I will have the replacement plants.

This is most frustrating for Chuck and I but especially for Chuck. He was so excited to go down with me to get these flasks. I have known Chuck for a long time. It ws his father Walter who was really there for me in the beginning of my Orchid Business in the late 1970's. He supplied me with beautiful Cattleyas and other plants. I used to visit their nursery 10 to 15 times per year in those days a trip of 450 plus miles from my place.

I will certainly post when we find out what the results of these tests really are. 

Jerry Lee Fischer, Orchids Limited


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## Heather (Feb 15, 2007)

Jason, thank you for posting that.


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## Mark (Feb 16, 2007)

This really is something. I wonder how it happened. Knowing Chuck as I do I'm not surprised he's making good on people's deposits. He's truly a decent guy and I feel for him that all the time, money and work he's put into those seedlings may have been wasted. Such a shame.


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## Greenthings (Feb 16, 2007)

It was I who in 2005 warned people on slipper orchid forums that a reliable Lima source told me that Peruflora could not possibly propagate the number of Pk flasks they sold from five legal Pk plants. The suggestion was made that therefore Peruflora would have to have purchased Pk seeds from illegal plants outside their nursery.

I received a lot of flack over this and was told that I did not know what I was talking about.

Soon after, I received another message from Lima telling me that an enemy of the Arias family had managed to have someone sell Manolo Pk seeds which were in fact seeds of another Phragmipedium species. 

Knowing my sources to be very reliable, I publicly announced that the Peruflora 's Pk species labels are unreliable, if seeds were purchased, and if indeed it was true that non-Pk seeds were sold to them, the seedlings in their flasks may not at all be Pk.

Again I was blasted for this by many, publicly and privately.

Last May while at the Redland International Orchid Festival, a very angry Manolo Arias stormed into the sales booth (tent) I was in, directed there by one of his friends who talked to me in the line up for the festival BBQ for vendors. 

Manolo told me that I was spreading false rumours about Peruflora when I stated on orchid forums, which he monitors, that their Pk flasks may not contain Pk seedlings but other species.

Well, we now know that my friends and I did not lie but told the truth and that all who contradicted me on the forums truly did not know what they were talking about. 

Believe me I take no pleasure in this. I feel terribly sorry for all who got stung by this. 

Chuck Acker did the honourable thing and I expected no less from him.
His business will not suffer, quite the opposite will result.


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## Greenthings (Feb 16, 2007)

I note that Jerry Fischer on another forum claims that Manolo Arias did not
purchase Pk seeds.

If Manolo told people that he did, Peruflora would very quicly lose their Pk license, as well as the five legal Pk plants. Not that it will make a difference now after what happened to Chuck Acker, probably to you, and many more 
in the world 

Jerry, I predicted in 2005 that some Peruflora flasks would have non Pk seedings in them and I based it on very reliable information. It has just happened. How often do you need to be told the truth?


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## isaias m rolando (Feb 17, 2007)

*True Pk At Cjm Orchids In Peru*



suss16 said:


> Did anyone else receive his letter? His kovachii flask/compots are not true kovachii. Included is a letter of apology from Manolo Arias.


As a peruvian orchid fan my shame on some comercial growers and my best apologies in the side on CITES-INRENA people. It has been dificult for them, not having an specialist to issue CITES papers on PK flasks.
I had the same reports by personal comunication of some farmers in PK habitat about "selling PK seeds" to a comercial grower. But they also informed that some of these said PK seeds were boisserianum seed pots and wallisi seed pods, also comon in the neighboring habitat for PK. INRENA can not prove these are ilegal flasks...
Fortunately there is a better source for true PK flasks and hybrids, from CJM orchids. I have witness myself all the process of legal collecting, growing, obtaining the true seeds of the best clones of true kovachiis and hybrids already in the market. CJM Orchids has the best high tech and formulas to grow, hybridize, germinate, grow in flask, deflask and growing seedlings in their facilities. CITES-INRENA people can testify that CJM is the only legal grower of PK that is certified by them for the entire process of growing, obtaining seed pods and lab germination and growing seedlings in and out of flasks. You can request this information to INRENA anytime.
The third legal collector is Mr Lee Moore. They obtained their permision recently last year. I have seen their seed pods too. If Mr Moore authorizes me I can show images of his plants containing seed pods from last November.
As you all know it takes time to obtaine legal seed pods.
It is not good for any bussines to have these "mistakes" on every one side. Mr Acker and Mr Fisher are doing to right thing. Appologies are not enough for the hundreds of hobbiests worldwide that would like to flower true PK in the future.
If I can be of any help for anybody acting legally, it will be my pleisure to answer all your questions.


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## SlipperFan (Feb 17, 2007)

I think you are new here, Isaias. Welcome to the forum. I think you will be having a lot to contribute. Thanks for posting.

Can you tell us a little more about yourself?


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## isaias m rolando (Feb 18, 2007)

*I am THE WELL-KNOWN ORCHID ENTHUSIAST FROM PERU*

Dear Slipper Fan

All I can say is that you may put my name isaias rolando into Googles and you will find there some of my publications and my conection to some scientific institutions.

If you look and the O. Digest Vol 67 (4), 2003, you will see that H. Koopowitz points out (sic): "...Our fearless leader, always full of optimism, was Dr Isaias Rolando, the well-known orchid enthusiast from Peru..." (pag 248).

I am an academic at my university, as an ophthalmologist, as a researcher and always pushing my university to research in peruvian orchids. We have DNA sequence machines. We will present our results very soon.

Any personal comunication you may address to my e-mail: [email protected]

Have a good sunday


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## isaias m rolando (Feb 18, 2007)

PROPOSAL

Lets do something positive
I strongly recomend to look to the future. DNA sequence as fingerprints will help all of us to identify whatever can be a "mistake" by some lab. There is enough scientific evidence to be sure what species is involve in each issue, said comercial trade or just for hobbiest assurance that they are paying for what they want. Is not a kovachii issue anymore, is about forensics in international trade.
I have a question to Mr J. Fisher. We know he did DNA counting for PK. Our problem is that his numbers are diferent to what Miluska Damian (see ORCHIDS, Feb 2005, pag 132) found here in her studies. What plant material did you use Mr Fisher? The ones from Peruflora? This is very important to stablish the scientific reality. 
Have a good sunday


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## Rob Zuiderwijk (Feb 18, 2007)

To come back to the original subject. In my personal communications with Mr. Chuck Acker on this subject, one thing he said was:

_"I truly believe that I am not the only person who has these mislabeled plants as these are from the very earliest flasks of one particular cross which was also sold in mass at the WOC in Dijon."_

I know from other communications I had with, among others, European nursery owners, that quite a number of these flasks that where sold at the WOC in Dijon have found their way to various nurseries. So I think a lot of people will be very disappointed or maybe angree, when their precious, high priced, "kovachii"-plant(s) start to flower.

I guess only time will tell what kind of kovachii-plants are already out their at the moment.


RZu.


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## johnndc (Feb 18, 2007)

Okay, now I'm wondering what the story is with the crosses that some of us got - i.e., kovachi x non-kovachi phrag.


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## lothianjavert (Feb 20, 2007)

What a shame.  I am glad that Chuck is doing the right thing. I hope that he gets refunded the costs of the flasks. I know I will certainly buy from him- he sounds like a person of great character.


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## NYEric (Feb 21, 2007)

All I can say is AIEE CARAMBA!


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## IdahoOrchid (Feb 25, 2007)

It sounds like the purchasers in the US have truely honest advocates working in their behalf on this matter. I would suggest that they be allowed to do their best to sort this out and then let them tell us what really happened.

Let's hope the rest of the distributors world wide will follow Chuck's and Jason's example.:clap: 

Speculation, finger pointing and "I told you so's" are nasty things and do nothing to resolve the issue at hand.


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## SlipperSlob (Feb 25, 2007)

*Facts from Chuck Acker*

I have been watching and reading the forums quietly since the revelation made by Chuck Acker that some of the plants labeled as kovachii from his Peruflora flasks are not true kovachii species. As a long time customer and now good friend of his I feel it is time to share some of my first hand knowledge of this subject from my many months of personal communications with him. This may get lengthy but I would like to point out a few things in response to certain postings.

I remember reading last summer many, many posts from someone who continued to hammer on the fact that Chuck Acker and Jerry Fischer could not sell their kovachii for two years because of an agreement that Peruflora had engaged them into. Well, good thing for that agreement and for the integrity of the two men that signed it because in a few short days that agreement expires. If it wasn't for Chuck's expertise in raising Phrags and his ability to discern that there was a problem, these misrepresented plants would be put out to market under the name of Phrag. kovachii. I commend Chuck and Jerry for abiding by the two year agreement not only because of this outcome but because it was an agreement they entered into and stuck with in spite of the flak they took because of it.

Back to Chuck's expertise in raising Phrags. It was early last summer when I first heard his statements of suspicion about one of his kovachii crosses from Peruflora. He painstakingly examined these plants for months, comparing them with the other kovachii crosses he was growing, not only from Peruflora but also from the Alfredo Manrique/Glen Decker stock. He noticed that indeed this one particular kovachii cross from Peruflora was growing very differently from the other kovachii flasks he obtained from those two legal sources. It was early October that I heard him bring up the subject of getting this suspicious cross DNA tested, which I thought was highly resourceful and most likely the best way to investigate what these plants truly were. Not only did he suspect there was a problem and come up with a solution, but he also did the legwork to find an accredited lab which was capable of running the test. He sent in the samples, paid the money and got the answers he was expecting.

Thanks to Chuck, many future buyers of these plants were spared the distress and agony that he has gone through in the deciphering of what these plants truly are. My sympathy goes out to him because I know how much effort, money, consideration, time and himself he has put into obtaining and raising these plants for us to eventually own with pride in our collections. His ethics in all aspects of this issue are truly commendable.

For those of you who have taken the time to read this I say Thank You. And from my most recent conversation with Chuck I know that he is extremely appreciative of the positive support he has received from his customers in response to publicly and honestly bringing this circumstance to light in the orchid community.


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## gonewild (Feb 25, 2007)

SlipperSlob said:


> I have been watching and reading the forums quietly since the revelation made by Chuck Acker that some of the plants labeled as kovachii from his Peruflora flasks are not true kovachii species. As a long time customer and now good friend of his I feel it is time to share some of my first hand knowledge of this subject from my many months of personal communications with him. This may get lengthy but I would like to point out a few things in response to certain postings.



Thank you for posting your information.

I don't think Chuck has ever been criticized concerning the kovachii. On the contrary he is to be commended for his actions. I certainly respect Chuck and will continue to buy his flasks as his quality is the best.

However, the kovachii mislabeling was not made public by Chuck or other vendors but rather a customer who posted the news. Chuck certainly has no responsibility to the public to publish an error but some vendors have made public statements and now they should be prepared to discuss the "news event".

The error which Chuck fell victim to was done in Peru. What about the hundreds of other potential victims that may have purchased mislabeled flasks? No one has come forward to say they have been contacted by the Peruvian supplier to make it right.

Since you are a long time friend of Chuck please tell him his reputation is very well intact, at least from my view. I'm sure he is more than a little heartbroken over this.


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## SlipperFan (Feb 25, 2007)

Absolutely true, Lance.


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## Heather (Feb 25, 2007)

Absolutely, I think everyone agrees that Chuck has been nothing but upstandiing in this, and his reputation has not, nor will it, suffer due to this unfortunate mishap.


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