# rothschildianum breeding lines in Germany



## paworsport (May 7, 2010)

Hi All,

I think it could be interesting to have more informations on roth breeding lines in Germany to compare with other roth look from Taiwan , Japan and America.

May be German members of the forum could have info on German awarded clones and what is currently done ? 

Philippe


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## labskaus (May 7, 2010)

Breeding lines? You must be kidding!

Franz Glanz had a few awarded over the years and frequently shows plants at exhibitions. The ones I recall were large, well shaped with a yellow base colour (like Rex). No idea where his breeding stock originated. He sells his roths without clonal names of the parents, but it might be worth to inquire.

Hilmar Bauch had two seedlings of Dou Fang x Fly Eagle awarded. Starship has decent size, good shape and dark colour, its sib Paris should be similar. He has seedlings of Starship x self and Starship x Paris, as well as a couple of crosses from Wilhelm Kenntners breeding. Since I haven't seen Kenntners plants in bloom, I can't state on the flower quality. In general I have the impression that Kenntner was first looking for colour and vigour in his crosses and size and shape were of secondary interest for him. John Boy might chime in, he knows his breeding better.

Nebojsha Popow has a couple awarded which I haven't seen in flower. From what I recall from the description, Jurassic Park is a medium sized, well shaped flower of exceptionally dark colour. I've seen one or two seedlings of the self cross in bloom and they were just like that.

A couple of people sell Taiwanese seedlings, and lately some of Sam Tsuis stuff. Many of the roths offered from nurseries not mentioned above are from wholesale nurseries and come without clonal names.

Compared to the sheer number of crosses in Taiwan and also the US, our breeding is neglectible. Not much of an own style, either.

You're bringing up an interesting point. Are you seeing differences in style between breeding lines from different countries? I see differences between breeders, and the Taiwanese have a different (more diverse???) breeding stock.


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## paworsport (May 7, 2010)

Hi 

thank you for the update. I think it is interesting to compare visions of what is a good flower in different country.

http://www.shenliu.idv.tw/My-orchid.htm

In the Taiwanes above link, If you go to roth page you will see a lot of very colorfull roths with contrasting part of the flower : some are very different of roth presented in the forum, different form US roth and japanese.

You mentionned different crosses of Germand breeder and it is important to know that some plants were selected and mixed.

We have no such practice in France where good roth are from the past (Marcel and Philippe Lecoufle (one clone 34 cm wide but dead at this time)
I know there is some old roths in Rouen city greenhouse which are from the wild with very good flower.

In UK Ratcliffe has roths clone form Commander plant and it could be nice to have some picture of it to compare.


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## John Boy (May 7, 2010)

When I first saw this post I thought I’d better not comment since everything I’d have to say will sound negative. But *since it’s generally a valid point let me say this much:*
I have worked for Willi Kenntner, who I regard as one of the best Orchid Breeders of our age by the way, for a while. Since I was in charge of the Breeding Stock as well as parts of the flasking, I would claim that the best rothschildianum stock on the Continent, including the only proper breeding Program with regard to Paphiopedilum in general happened at his nursery. Unfortunately Willi is not 20 any more and is, and has been packing up for a while. Given that the German Awards and Judging System over the past 20 or so years was suited to the exhibitor, rather than to the plants, Willi almost never submitted any plants for judging. After all, what’s the point of a worthless medal given by judges who are more interested in the exhibitor’s name, then the plants? Willi used to say: “They wouldn’t recognise a good plant if someone told them!” I know that the Eric Young Foundation had some sweet things from Borneo on the tables too, but these never seem to have been used for breeding (as far as I’m aware). 
*As far as I’m concerned there’s no such thing as breeding-lines for Paphiopedilum in Europe at this time, and forget about rothschildianum breeding in particular.* Yes, Glanz does or did a bit of breeding, but rothschildianum was never his top priority. The only source for half descent plants are Taiwan Imports these days. Most Germans would not even know what a good rothschildianum looks like, let alone be able to grow one. The fact that most people aren’t willing to spend good money on good plants makes things even worse. We see the same thing happening with good Cattleyas right now. With Cattleyas however, we’d have a few people importing these (great new Brazilian bred) lines, but very few people want to pay the money a good plants does cost. I did warn you, most of all of this sounds very negative, but, knowing a bit about the industry, that’s how I feel about Europe and it’s Orchid-Breeding. “If it’s cheap it’s a good plant” is the general attitude. How’s a breeder supposed to have a “up to standard rothschildianum breeding program” in this climate? All the few good remaining nurseries struggle to make ends meet. Even if there would be a popper judging system (other than the RHS) available in Europe, and even if the best possible plants were gathered under one roof for breeding, there’s no one willing or able to invest in doing the work and to raise these seedlings until the general mentality is changing and a real demand for “High End Breeding” is created. I have spoken to Joseph Wu about this, years ago. Even then he had his really great plants, and then the plants for Europe.

Tata,
JB


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## labskaus (May 7, 2010)

Fabrice,
I haven't seen a single plant of US breeding personally, and too few from Taiwan to make valid comments on their differences. I find it difficult to judge flowers from pictures, especially if you're looking at different samples (select nursery plants vs random forum posts). I forgot who mentioned it, but apparently the Taiwanese look for good flower presentation on tall stems a little harder than US breeders who focus more on the flower itself. Maybe that's another generalisation.

We are also not using the full potential of the roths in our country. Some growers own excellent plants which aren't used for breeding. The Hennis nursery still owns a nice roth collected by Wilhelm Hennis back in the 1890ies.

Ratcliffe offered F2 progeny of Commander a couple of years ago, I hope they'll compare nicely to the Asian breeding.

John Boy,
thanks for your comments, highly appreciated. Having been part of the judging system only in recent years, I don't feel offended :evil:
Honestly, the system isn't perfect, as is the AOS system and the RHS system. At least, we are finally in a situation where improvements are possible, and I know that a number of suggestions have been made and will be discussed shortly.
Willi Kenntner once said that his breeding goals were obviously not in line with what judges appreciate. I can't remember Kenntners plants on the table in the past five years, but I know his outstanding wilhelminaes, for example, and I own a Wayne Booth off him which is outstanding.
I agree that the former head of judging had clear personal preferences. You know he's gone.

It might be a bit unfair to state that most Germans (Paph fanciers) won't recognize a good roth even if its shown to them. Especially after there aren't any in the country oke:
A WOW plant causes "wows" no matter from whom, and most trained eyes will be able to analyse a flower good enough to tell award quality (in any system) from a poor flower.

Cheers,


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## ehanes7612 (Aug 22, 2010)

*roth flask ?*

besides Sam and the occasional OZ offer is there anyway to acquire Taiwanese breeding flasks of roth?


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## Justin (Aug 22, 2010)

Try Dean of Paphiness orchids. Not sure about flasks, but Dean has imported roth plants from Taiwan in the past. I've seen him offer OZ flasks lately.

However, with OZ and particularly Orchid Inn (using Japanese strains), I don't know if you really need to look abroad for the best roths...


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## ehanes7612 (Aug 22, 2010)

I get my OZ stuff through Dean....he does get good, hard to find plants

i know Sam is immersed in the pac asian breeding lines (i know he travels there a lot), so you are probably right


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## phraggy (Jun 19, 2016)

labskaus said:


> Breeding lines? You must be kidding!
> 
> Franz Glanz had a few awarded over the years and frequently shows plants at exhibitions. The ones I recall were large, well shaped with a yellow base colour (like Rex). No idea where his breeding stock originated. He sells his roths without clonal names of the parents, but it might be worth to inquire.
> 
> ...



Just found this post from 2010 so thought I would place a pic of roth paris x starlight ---- Asendorfer bred. Had a word with him at Malvern International Show a couple of days ago who confirmed that it was his own breed ---- but this was the first one he had ever seen!!

Ed


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## paphioland (Jun 19, 2016)

That flower looks very small.


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## paworsport (Jun 20, 2016)

paphioland said:


> That flower looks very small.



http://www.tokyoorchidnursery.com/2016/05/20/東京オーキット-ナーセリー2016年5月リスト/

What do you think about the pic of the roth Rex x Tarentula page 2 of the link above ?

First time I saw a pic with this clone Tarentula.
The flower looks strange and looks more like a Saint Swithin...


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## emydura (Jun 23, 2016)

paworsport said:


> http://www.tokyoorchidnursery.com/2016/05/20/東京オーキット-ナーセリー2016年5月リスト/
> 
> What do you think about the pic of the roth Rex x Tarentula page 2 of the link above ?
> 
> ...



Yes, the petal stance is very down swept. Still looks legitimate to my eyes though. Interesting that TON recently were selling flasks of this cross. They have obviously made the same cross many years ago.


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