# Paph. hangianum 'First Class Charlie'



## John M (Jun 19, 2010)

This one bloomed at the same time as 'April'. It had a natural spread of 14cm and smelled awesome as well! This plant survived my freeze in March 2008. It was one of the lucky ones that was in the middle of the greenhouse at the point furthest from any outside wall and where most of the undamaged plants were found the next morning. That location is where the overnight temp reading was -1*C; meaning that the perimeter of the greenhouse, where most of the dead plants were, got even colder than that. Not only does it obviously have better form, I like that it also has a clearer yellow tone than 'April'; although, it did have a very short stem. I have selfed this plant and should have flasks in the future.

















Paph. hangianum 'First Class Charlie' (left) and 'April' (Right)


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## paphioboy (Jun 19, 2010)

WOW...  That's simply amazing... Also the first time I've seen a multi-growth hangianum... Your culture must be to its liking...


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## tenman (Jun 19, 2010)

OMG! I want it! I want it! I want it!!

Guess I'm just gonna have to move to another country where the government has more sense if I'm ever gonna get one of those! I'd say I'll take a flask but I'm not allowed to have even that here.


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## Yoyo_Jo (Jun 19, 2010)

Holy cow, that's beautiful. :clap:


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## goldenrose (Jun 19, 2010)

:drool::drool::drool:WHOA!!:clap::clap:


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## Greenpaph (Jun 19, 2010)

John,

That is the best of the best! Let us know when flasks are available!


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## Jorch (Jun 20, 2010)

wow!! 2 hangianums in bloom, they are so beautiful! What's your secret?? 
Do they have the same fragrance or different??


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## e-spice (Jun 20, 2010)

Stunning. Wonderfully grown and gorgeous!

I wish we could have legally propagated hangianums in the US. To my knowledge you still aren't supposed to.

e-spice


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## smartie2000 (Jun 20, 2010)

'First Class Charlie' also has much better colour too. Excellent clone.

Did you use the hangianum pollen in any breeding?


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## John Boy (Jun 20, 2010)

John,
II dare say that is the best hangianum flower I have seen so far. I have not see millions of hangianum yet, but yours is probably the best.


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## Pete (Jun 20, 2010)

HOLY CRAP! that one on the left is absolutley unbelievable. no question superior to the gold medal one awarded in taiwan recently. maybe not quite the NS but just remarkable.


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## SlipperKing (Jun 20, 2010)

Good stuff John, good stuff. The "FCC" clone is multi, is this the first time to bloom for you? Just wondering if this is a re-bloom since the freeze or did the plant throw multiple growths after the freeze.


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## emydura (Jun 20, 2010)

Just awesome John.

David


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## paphreek (Jun 20, 2010)

Absolutely stunning, John!


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## Hien (Jun 20, 2010)

Words are not enough.
This flower is among the very best I have seen so far on many websites from various countries.


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## Wendy (Jun 20, 2010)

You know that I like it. :drool:


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## Scooby5757 (Jun 20, 2010)

"Woah-ho-ho-ho!" Was exactly what I said outloud when I saw it. Awesome.


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## John M (Jun 20, 2010)

Wow....thanks everybody! I was VERY pleased when this opened for me. 

It will take awhile; but, I will announce when I've got flasks.

I don't have a secret Jorch. They just got the same care as everything else. Yes, they had the same fragrance.

Smartie, I saved the pollen to use later.

Yes Rick, this is the first time to bloom for me. Each plant had bloomed once before (first bloom seedlings), just prior to me acquiring them. Only the 'F.C.C.' clone went through the freeze. I got the 'April' clone just after the freeze in a collection buyout when I was restocking. The bloom on 'F.C.C.' is on a growth that was young at the time of the freeze. After the freeze, it put out two more growths, which have not bloomed yet.


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## jewel (Jun 20, 2010)

charlie is sweet:clap::clap: great job!


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## Ernie (Jun 20, 2010)

Yeah, I'm impressed.


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Jun 20, 2010)

VERY VERY NICE. Yes, let all of us know when those flasks are ready. Wait a minute, maybe we better be telling John that the clone isn't so good so the price of the flasks won't be so high


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## John Boy (Jun 20, 2010)

You could sell me a portion of the seeds John, and I'll be your European Lab. I'll need half a tea spoon worth of seeds! That would make about 100 bottles á 15 plants. That should be enough for Rudolf, Ramón, Jean and myself.;0))


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## Paul (Jun 20, 2010)

very very good one, well done !!


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## KyushuCalanthe (Jun 20, 2010)

One to hybridize!


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## SlipperFan (Jun 20, 2010)

Amazing and stunning -- WOW!


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## NYEric (Jun 21, 2010)

OK, by far the best shaped hangianum I've seen. And I've seen lots!
I would send photos to Asia, but keep the secret freeze technique quiet, then sell the pollen for much money!!!


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## Kavanaru (Jun 21, 2010)

wow... THAT is a fantastic Paph hangianum... :clap::clap:


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## Kavanaru (Jun 21, 2010)

John Boy said:


> That would make about 100 bottles á 15 plants. That should be enough for Rudolf, Ramón, Jean and myself.;0))



:clap::drool::clap::drool:


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## GuRu (Jun 21, 2010)

Very impessive flowers especially the 'First Class Charlie'! 
What a fortune that it survived your freezing!!


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## Mrs. Paph (Jun 21, 2010)

YIKES..........that is stunning! Really stunning....!


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## John M (Jun 21, 2010)

Thanks very much again everybody! So far, the capsule looks very good.



NYEric said:


> I would send photos to Asia, but keep the secret freeze technique quiet, then sell the pollen for much money!!!



Hmmm? I didn't think of that! :clap:


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## Pete (Jun 21, 2010)

i would def. not send pics to asia! unless of course you want to see a pic of your plant in a paph book and not get any credit for it....
also, you said you selfed this plant... is 'April' still open?? if so you should use that as a mother and do a sibling cross. with how slow this species grows I would think that even though the other parent is inferior, it is still great and the advantage of having the genetic diversity and potentially the "hybrid vigor" of the sib cross far outweighs the pros of selfing an excellently formed flower... if not theres always next time...


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## John M (Jun 21, 2010)

I'll have to wait 'till next time, Pete. I did not cross the two because 'April' would water down the high quality of 'F.C.C.' Also, hybrid vigor is more associated with actual hybrids; primary crosses between two different species. I wouldnt' expect to see any increased vigor in seedlings from a sibbing over an F1 selfing. My goal was to produce more plants with the same or similar high quality; so, a selfing was the way to go this time.


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## tenman (Jun 22, 2010)

John M said:


> I'll have to wait 'till next time, Pete. I did not cross the two because 'April' would water down the high quality of 'F.C.C.' Also, hybrid vigor is more associated with actual hybrids; primary crosses between two different species. I wouldnt' expect to see any increased vigor in seedlings from a sibbing over an F1 selfing. My goal was to produce more plants with the same or similar high quality; so, a selfing was the way to go this time.



I agree with your desire to keep this one 'pure'. Better shape for a hangianum I can't imagine.


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## Pete (Jun 22, 2010)

i completely disagree. with slow growing species such as this or a roth you almost never want to self pollinate. and hybrid vigor does indeed show up in sib crosses versus selfings, again, moreso with these slower growing things. the only time id ever self something is if it is a very rare color form of something (i.e. var. alba) or if its just the only one of something you have. 
i would think in crossing F.C.C. with April you would get that little bit of extra vigor from the genetic variation (even with two of the same species) along with maybe an increased natural spread and possibly an improved stem height also. it is highly unlikely that any of the progeny of a selfing of F.C.C. will come out as wonderful as it did itself...
regardless... killer bloom and i would still love to buy a flask and im sure theyll come out good....


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## valenzino (Jun 22, 2010)

I think Pete got it right....in your situation john,the reason to do a selfing can be to have a lot of similar plants for future breeding,but with selfing you will loose quality(like in dogs breeding...)...maybe not very visible,but shurly on plant vigour.I will do a selfing on F.C :c and sibling on April.The best to have the "crossing vigour",will be have 2 hangianums from far different colonies,to have more "genetics" involved in the cross.
I will try to do Ap x F.C.C 200 seedlings and select the strongest growers...maybe 20 plants,the remainings sell gift or trash...so you wìll have the chance to have something new and maybe better....and on the other side you still have the F.C.C x self for the quality....


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## PaphMadMan (Jun 22, 2010)

Based on an education in plant breeding and genetics I have to largely agree with Pete. I would have made the selfing and the sib cross if I had the option. The selfing may have short term gain, but the sib cross could be the start of a well planned breeding program. No plant is perfect in form and health, and severe inbreeding is just as likely to enhance the negative as the positive. Even a little genetic diversity gives you something to work with. Inbreeding is always a dead end eventually.


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## John M (Jun 22, 2010)

Pete and Valenzino, it's too late now to do anything about it as the photos are from April and the flowers are done. I will give your opinions serious thought and pay close attention to how well the selfing seedlings come along. It's never to late to learn something new. However, it has been my experience that to self an average quality clone is a waste of time because there is a chance of reduced vigor (although we disagree on just how much that would be), and most of the offspring will be no better than the parent; so, why do a selfing? However, in Paphs, because cloning is not an option, selfing is routinely done with exceptional clones because selfing tends to exagerate all the qualities of the parent. Therefore, it is normal (with a selfing population of seedlings), to produce some with poorer quality; most will have similar quality and a few will have even better quality than the parent plant. This applies to all the various characteristics that we growers like such as size, colour, form, etc. With Paph breeding, if you want to bring out a particular quality that is already good and make it outstanding(!), you self the flower and keep and bloom out as many of the offspring as possible to find those few plants that are even better. Plus, you still have lots of plants that are just as good....which isn't a bad thing when the parent is so good to begin with. 

All that being said, I do understand the concern of weakened seedlings because of the selfing; so, I would never self a plant that was weak to begin with. Also, I believe that the weakening of the offspring is more likely to occur with multiple generations of selfings. The way to properly maintain high quality *and* vigor is to self a flower, keep only the vigorous seedlings, grow them to bloom and keep the best quality. Then outcross to an unrelated flower of good quality, keep only the most vigorous, bloom them and keep the best again. Because you are able to intervene and influence the qualities inherited in each generation, you are able to choose vigor and then quality; literally weeding out any weaknesses and average quality blooms. Then, self one of those outcross seedlings, choose the most vigorous again, bloom them and keep the best and then outcross again; etc., etc., etc. This way, every other generation brings in new genes to maintian vigor, which is enhanced by you choosing only the MOST vigorous seedlings in a batch to grow up. Plus, by choosing the best quality from each generation, you also maintain and improve on the quality of the original foundation plant. 

'F.C.C.' is a strong grower, is multi-growth and is quite vigorous; so, I'm not expecting any poor vigor issues in this first generation selfing. I'm assuming at this point that the short stem is an anomaly and not normal for this clone....fingers crossed on that!

Kirk: I basically agree with what you say; except I don't agree that the negative outweighs the possitive of selfing for just one generation. Multiple generation selfings is a problem for sure; but, not just once. Sure there will be some runts; but, those should be discarded. If only the good growers are kept to grow on and bloom out, you are therefore keeping the ones that have inherited vigor or enhanced vigor from the parent. Then, if you outcross, you are addressing the issue of too much inbreeding. Your comments seem to apply very well to multiple generations of selfings. I agree, that is a recipe for failure.

BTW: I couldn't have crossed the two plants anyway. There was NO WAY I was going to let the 'F.C.C.' clone not be selfed; it was just too good. However, 'April' was way overdue for repotting. It was not something that any of us would normally worry about with a Paph; but, being a hangianum, I didn't want it to carry a seedpod because it needed repotting right after blooming.


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## Pete (Jun 22, 2010)

ya its all just food for thought. good explanations on your thinking/planning john.. like i said


> regardless... killer bloom and i would still love to buy a flask and im sure theyll come out good....


!!


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## Mrs. Paph (Jun 22, 2010)

Also from a plant breeding and genetics background, I have to agree with not crossing the two...Yes, it's a newer, rarer species, but just b/c 'April' also happened to be in bloom doesn't mean it should be bred with. If Someone Else had the 'April' clone and asked you for pollen from 'FCC' to help improve their breeding line, that's serves a purpose in their breeding program, but if you already Have 'FCC'...self as you did, or search elsewhere for a hangianum a little closer to the league yours is in to breed with would be more worth the time and effort than breeding the two together that you have. Now if you were arguing for the good and survival of a wild species, you'd never want to self in favor of outcrossing, but these are GH grown and I'm assuming the goal was bloom and plant vigor quality, not to hurry up and get out a large number of seedlings to sell at 'new rare species' prices. But as you said, repeated selfing would likely have a much diminished benefit, so now you have selfings on the way hopefully, and plenty of time to scan the forums and shows for a likely matchup for 'FCC' in the future


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## John Boy (Jun 22, 2010)

I’ve got to agree 100% with what John said, and how he approaches this issue. :clap::clap:

Other than what John said, I would have gone out to find other great hangianum to cross it with, just to be safe. The 2 pollinia would have provided enough material to pollinate at least 8-10 plants with. I would have made sure to use the pollen, without storing. Granted it could have been difficult to find other blooming hangianums within a potentially short period of time, but…Yes, I would have felt the need to make very sure, that I’d be ending up with a few capsules of superior hangianum potential. A x self would have been my very fist choice too, but…we know that it can be tricky to get Papiopedilum to make a capsule. Not to mention that it’s by no means certain to be ending up with viable seeds every time. So, yes: I doubt that I would have left it there, not with so much at stake, and not with one of the best of its kind.


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## PaphMadMan (Jun 22, 2010)

John M said:


> Kirk: I basically agree with what you say; except I don't agree that the negative outweighs the possitive of selfing for just one generation. Multiple generation selfings is a problem for sure; but, not just once. Sure there will be some runts; but, those should be discarded. If only the good growers are kept to grow on and bloom out, you are therefore keeping the ones that have inherited vigor or enhanced vigor from the parent. Then, if you outcross, you are addressing the issue of too much inbreeding. Your comments seem to apply very well to multiple generations of selfings. I agree, that is a recipe for failure.



John - I have to add that I assume that most species plants we see are already significantly inbred. Perhaps you know the provenance of your plants back to collected stock, but most species propagation is from selfings, sibings and the occassional backcross to a superior parent because that is all the stock most growers have available, or they often choose those breeding strategies. Even if someone thinks they are making an outcross it is likely that the plants are related.


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## John M (Jun 22, 2010)

Mrs. Paph said:


> Also from a plant breeding and genetics background, I have to agree with not crossing the two...Yes, it's a newer, rarer species, but just b/c 'April' also happened to be in bloom doesn't mean it should be bred with. If Someone Else had the 'April' clone and asked you for pollen from 'FCC' to help improve their breeding line, that's serves a purpose in their breeding program, but if you already Have 'FCC'...self as you did, or search elsewhere for a hangianum a little closer to the league yours is in to breed with would be more worth the time and effort than breeding the two together that you have. Now if you were arguing for the good and survival of a wild species, you'd never want to self in favor of outcrossing, but these are GH grown and I'm assuming the goal was bloom and plant vigor quality, not to hurry up and get out a large number of seedlings to sell at 'new rare species' prices. But as you said, repeated selfing would likely have a much diminished benefit, so now you have selfings on the way hopefully, and plenty of time to scan the forums and shows for a likely matchup for 'FCC' in the future



Well said. Thank you Mrs. Paph!



> Originally posted by *John Boy*.
> Other than what John said, I would have gone out to find other great hangianum to cross it with, just to be safe. *That only takes money.....and lots of it! You have this kind of money? Lucky you!* The 2 pollinia would have provided enough material to pollinate at least 8-10 plants with. I would have made sure to use the pollen, without storing. Granted it could have been difficult to find other blooming hangianums within a potentially short period of time, but…Yes, I would have felt the need to make very sure, that I’d be ending up with a few capsules of superior hangianum potential. *All very well and good in theory; but, I doubt that hangianums in bloom and ready to be pollinated are easy to find for sale....at any price!* A x self would have been my very fist choice too, but…we know that it can be tricky to get Papiopedilum to make a capsule. Not to mention that it’s by no means certain to be ending up with viable seeds every time. So, yes: I doubt that I would have left it there, not with so much at stake, and not with one of the best of its kind.





> Originally posted by *PaphMadMan*.
> John - I have to add that I assume that most species plants we see are already significantly inbred. *Yes, I agree.* Perhaps you know the provenance of your plants back to collected stock, but most species propagation is from selfings, sibings and the occassional backcross to a superior parent because that is all the stock most growers have available, or they often choose those breeding strategies. Even if someone thinks they are making an outcross it is likely that the plants are related. *I think you've probably got this point figured out quite well. My plant came from a hobbyist who was downsizing. He got it as a seedling. That seedling probably came from an importer and they probably got a flask originally out of Taiwan. It certainly is possible that my plant is the result of a selfing; but, I don't know that. So, for now, without the financial means to go out and find and buy up all hangianums in sight (as John Boy suggests he'd do), oke: and with only one other hangianum available to me which while attractive, is NOT in the same league at all, I can for now only assume that my plant represents "ground zero" and has unrelated parents. You work with what you've got. *


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