# Anyone grow hoya?



## TheLorax (Sep 10, 2007)

I've had a few of these hanging in my house for several years. They seem to thrive on neglect and they bloom well enough on and off throughout the year. I ordered cuttings with a group of people and picked up quite a few new hoya. They rooted well over a month ago and I'm going to have to go and get them potted up here real soon before the weather turns. They really are nice hanging plants and can stand up to being banged around by kids and going without water if you forget you have them.

There's one particular hoya that I've been looking to buy. I'm going to have to track it down sooner or later. Take a look at this if you like hoya-

http://www.flickr.com/photos/epiforums/265761766/in/set-72157600338453745/ 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/epiforums/265761763/ 

I guess that plant is a Hoya aff. Cyrtocerus floribundum but I've been reading where people have been arguing about the id. 

Three others I'd like to track down sooner or later would be-
H. bicknellii, nabawanensis, and oreogena


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## Candace (Sep 10, 2007)

If you can't find the hoyas you're looking for over the net, let me know and I can give you the e-mail address of someone from my local OS. She's grows a huge amount of hoyas and I would be surprised if she didn't own some or all of the ones you're looking for.


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## TheLorax (Sep 10, 2007)

I've tried tracking down the ones I lust for and came up empty handed. Well, I found a nursery over in Australia that had the H. bicknellii, nabawanensis, and oreogena but not worth it for me to place an overseas order for only three cuttings once I add the cost of the inspection and phytos so I was hoping to find them somewhere locally or at least in the US. Please do send your friend my lust list. If she's growing those four I want, I'll buy. Thanks for offering. 

Here's what I have in the house (some are recently rooted cuttings) but with the purchase of these 4 I have been wanting, I'm officially out of space for Hoya-

albiflora
archboldiana
arnottiana 
australis ssp. sanae 
australis ‘Lizard Isle’
bella “Kentiana”
bella lancelota sbsp lancelota 
bella “Sulawesii”
carnusa 
carnusa “Bilobata”
cambra
clandestina 
coronaria
dolichosparte
eitapensis 
greenii 
imperialis
‘Iris Marie’
javanica
lacunosa var. pallidiflora 
linearis 
longifolia 
macgillivrayi
magnifica
monetteae 
multiflora
multiflora variegata
pimenteliana 
pottsii 
Purpurea-fusca
thompsonii 
plus two that have missing tags


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## Candace (Sep 10, 2007)

O.K. I sent her an e-mail. I don't know when I'll hear from her, however as they were on a trip to Russia and they may not be back, yet.


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## TheLorax (Sep 10, 2007)

No great rush. I'm very appreciative that there may be a local source for the plants I've wanted to buy.


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## Candace (Sep 10, 2007)

I just heard from her. She said she belongs to a hoya society and she's only ever seen one of your listed species in publications. So, they are very, very rare. She doesn't have any of them. Sorry!


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## likespaphs (Sep 10, 2007)

nice. i have a small collection with kerrii, carnosa, lacunosa and serpens. 
they're pretty cool.
my kerrii blooms like mad frequently though i was only able to bloom the carnosa for the first time this year. i think it may be in too much light and i may water it too frequently...


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## Marco (Sep 10, 2007)

I have a 2 year old hoya kerri cutting that just sits there


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## Leo Schordje (Sep 10, 2007)

That is quite a list you have. David Liddle's Nursery in Australia is the only place to get hoya with any hope of having the right name on the plant. Order from anyone else and you have better than 50% chance of a mis-labelled plant. I refuse to join Dave's Garden or the other forums. Too much mindless nattering. However they do regularly put together a group order to Liddle, which I have taken advantage of. I have about 30 Hoya myself. This is about 25 more than I have room for. I'll be selling a few extras at the WOS show in Milwaukee this weekend. (don't tell Bil they are not orchids)
Have we met through the Illinois Orchid Society? or the WOS? I'm in NE IL too. Private Message if you like.


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## Lance Birk (Sep 10, 2007)

Ted Green is your man.

www.rare-hoyas.com


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## Greenpaph (Sep 10, 2007)

Very beautiful and different! That is quite a list!

I have polyneura, serpens and bella.

:clap:


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## Greenpaph (Sep 10, 2007)

Is this one a bush or vine type Hoya?


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## TheLorax (Sep 10, 2007)

Hello Leo Schordje, we might have met since we're from the same area although I'm not a member of the Illinois Orchid Society or whatever the WOS is. I pretty much stick to my family and native plant folk but I do volunteer work in the community and particularly enjoy working with children and seniors. I've spoken to 17 senior groups in the past 12 months. Working with seniors was new to me and I must admit I have thoroughly enjoyed myself. Most of the people in senior housing are into container and balcony gardening utilizing readily available native plants to attract birds and butterflies but some are in assisted living and are very interested in attracting wildlife. Most assisted living centers have a community garden where everyone can fiddle around to their hearts content. Other than that, I volunteered to work on some educational programming for kids so perhaps our paths have crossed at a native plant conference or seminar? 

The blunt of my plants above came from David or were cuttings of plants that my girlfriends ordered from him. He sends nice healthy pest-free cuttings and I never have to worry about him screwing around with phytos and such. He has never mislabeled a plant on me to the best of my knowledge but... he is selling an odorata that is suspect, could actually be cembra I am told. People are human, they make mistakes and he has an incredible inventory. I placed my order to him this last time with two girlfriends from a native plant group (ironic that the people who plant natives outside have so many exotics inside). I should have ordered those lust-for hoyas from him a few months ago but I was already ordering about 8 cuttings and didn't have any more space to lay them out to root them. Incidentally, there is at least one other source that I know of where one's odds of getting a mislabled plant would be about the equivalent of receiving a mislabeled plant from David however she is a private collector and sticks to herself and a handful of friends. She's the one who got me hooked on hoya for my home. 

I'm afraid I don't know who Bill is. Is he a member here and I'm just not matching up his real name to his user name? 

Thank you Lance Birk, I will check out your link.


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## TheLorax (Sep 10, 2007)

From the Rare Hoyas site-
WHAT’S NEW - WHAT’S COMING UP -

"This Feb-March '07 trip to Palawan Island, Philippines, was a social/touristy success for Carol Noel, Rudy and Anne Bachmann and my wife Dorothy and me but a failure for collecting, zero, zilch, nada! It is amazing how the areas have changed in the past 7 years and didn't find a single H. imperialis or D. imbricata in places where there were many before. We didn't find H. curtisii and H. darwinii at St. Paul's Bay." 

"So, we went to Fiji where we were successful in collecting all 4 of the Fijian species: H. diptera, H. vitiensis, H. australis and the long sought after H. megalantha. We found them all within a 20 mile stretch on the island of Taveuni. The H. megalantha we found in the exact place where I had searched 3 times before, at 3,200 ft., but this time there was ONE, wilting flower still in bloom (end of the season) and that lead me to a whole group of the plants. You should have seen this 84 year old climbing a 25 foot cliff above the road to get it!"

"We also found, H. diptera, H. vitiensis and maybe H. megalantha (no flowers) part way up (at 2,700 ft.) Mt. Victoria (Tomanivi) on Viti Levu. That hike was easy compared to climbing that cliff on Taveuni."

I'm sure he's a wonderful person and I thank you for the referral however I will not knowingly purchase plants from anyone who field collects and it would appear this individual actively field collects. Lord knows these plants are easy enough to propagate. It is my understanding David Liddle offers cuttings from plants he propagates himself based on photos I have seen of his nursery and comments made by others who have been ordering from him. If you have knowledge that Mr. Liddle is an active field collector, please do share as me and my friends will never order from him again. I'm sure even his original sources were wild collected plants but it seems rather odd that in this day and age someone is out actively collecting plants from the wild that are already in cultivation that could be purchased then propagated for the green industry.


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## practicallyostensible (Sep 11, 2007)

Ever seen Hoya lauterbachii? If I had more room it would be the first thing that I would get... much much more room.


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## Lance Birk (Sep 11, 2007)

My mistake, The Lorax, I thought you were searching for valid species. You probably already saw this:

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/767533/

Also, I didn't know that hoyas were illegal to collect. Good luck on finding good species these days.


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## TheLorax (Sep 11, 2007)

I can't read but the first post at that forum. Maybe my settings on my computer are off or something. So far I can see the name of the person is Aloha Hoya and when you click on the link to the associated profile, there is a link to a nursery of the same name and also to something called Big Island Growers. This person appears to be someone who owns and operates a nursery. I couldn't help but spot this in that first post, "Don't mean to sound prissy...nor authoritarian and please forgive if I have come off as arrogant. I worry about polluting an already polluted pool with more confusion....". So, it's ok to worry about polluting pools of plants available for resale but it's not ok to worry about polluting natural areas when people trample the plants to get in to dig them up to take back for resale? I suspect that you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on wild collecting. If the rest of that thread contains any information that David Liddle is out actively field collecting the plants he sells and not propagating them, please share the rest of the thread with me as I truly won't buy another plant from him. I was under the impression based on his extensive propagation operations that he was cloning his parent stock. 

Hoyas aren't illegal to collect in countries like that, but then you already knew that. Lots of plants aren't illegal to collect in those countries. We Americans are somewhat more progressive in protecting our natural resources these days but not much and we certainly can't compete with what the good people of New Zealand have done to protect their natural resources and fragile ecosystems. We've got the laws on the books but little or no means to enforce them which is a shame. To me, it's a matter of ethics. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. There's a precarious balance that exists in many native plant communities. These plants need to reproduce. Digging them up or collecting seed just because a country has no laws on the books will reduce the ability of remaining plants to reproduce and could negatively impact survival of the species at that location depending on how many are taken as well as other factors. Additionally; the removal of plants from the wild, regardless of whether it is legal or not, can negatively impact pollinators and other species that depend upon the plant for survival. In my humble opinion, it is best to leave these plants be to sustain them for future generations given there is so much development going on that desirable plants frequently become made available to virtually anyone willing to go out and dig them up before the excavators come. 

I think this about sums up the damage done by field collectors- "It is amazing how the areas have changed in the past 7 years and didn't find a single H. imperialis or D. imbricata in places where there were many before". Gee, I wonder how many people visited to collect plants in the past seven years since he was there collecting plants himself? Sadly, many collectors aren't capable of keeping what they dig up alive and many more collectors stick what they dig up in a box to ship off to people who were high bidders on online auctions. Plant material gets intercepted by the USDA and ends up dying in a holding bay or having to be destroyed when the appropriate certs don't accompany a shipment. Anyone get a chance to see the high tech equipment the USDA is using to inspect packages these days? Any one visit a USDA quarantine area lately to get a good look at the volume of plant material that is dead or slated to be destroyed? It's mind boggling.


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## TheLorax (Sep 11, 2007)

Oh my-

http://cgi.ebay.com/THE-PAPHIOPEDIL...9745257QQihZ006QQcategoryZ42218QQcmdZViewItem

I was just loaned your book to read a few days ago. It's sitting right here by the few other orchid books I have. How cool is this! A celebrity amongst us! It's nice to have people with your experience in and amongst the people down at my level.


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## Leo Schordje (Sep 11, 2007)

Hi Lance,
. Ted Green is a great guy,, wonderful hoyas, great orchids and quite a collection of Sobralia. His friend Dale Kloppenburg does have the bad habit of redescribing and renaming the same species over and over. Especially when it comes to the Hoya littoralis, memoria, gracilis, tsangii, burtoniae, grouping as a case example. There is a plethora of names for what is likely only a couple species. Christine Burton just pours gasoline on this mess and lights flame war fires. The chorus of women followers of Dale generate a cacaphony of mis-quotes and mistatements that just fan the flame wars. The noise makes the markianum-tigrinum and kovachii-peruvianum discussions look civil by comparison. I've given up looking for rational discussions of what the various Hoya species names actually represent. David Liddle is the only distributor who is consistiently provides an accession number and a name on every tag with every plant sold. His catalog then provides the collection locations for every accession number. If there is a later name change, you can track it through the accession number. Ted has wonderful stock, propagated from his various collections, but you have a hard time tracking name changes through his system. I buy from Ted regularly, and Liddle, and accept the fact that there will be debate, and future name changes for the different species. It is a fascinating group of plants. Though orchids will remain my first love. 

For Lauren, with Hoya, the wild collection is only of a few CUTTINGS, the original plant is allowed to remain in place. Then the cuttings are grown on at the nursery, the stock sold are cuttings of the original cuttings. A collection done wonce provides propagation stock for generations. Some of Ted Greens original collected cuttings happened over 30 years ago. It really is a less destructive method of collecting than anything that happens in orchids. 
Leo
Leo


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## TheLorax (Sep 11, 2007)

I'm a proponent of responsible and sustainable collection by the green industry. Get these plants and others that are desirable into cultivation so they can be sold to the public to stop the poaching and collection from wild areas as well as the trampling of other companion species. 

Yes, it was my understanding that only cuttings were taken by David Liddle not whole plants and that his current inventory consisted of plants that he propagated.


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## Lance Birk (Sep 12, 2007)

The Lorax,

We can disagree on many things, if you like, but I see no good reason to leave new species or desirable plants of any species out in the jungle to die. Slash and burn agriculture destroys more plant material on a yearly basis than collectors have since their existence. Stories you read about greedy collectors, plant "tramplers" and developers, etc. are mostly just that. They are based on untruths and exaggeration and are written by people who have no experience in jungle travel...except in one or two cases like Cribb and Averyanov. If you look at how man is now propagating plant material there is no argument that he is capable of producing them in massive quantities. Seems to me there's a disconnect here.

Your quote about subsequent visits to previously known species habitat areas which reveal their disappearance or great reduction is usually true. I have seen very large areas of forests cut down for oil palm production in Malaysia. I have seen large areas in Indonesia cut and burned for clove production, mostly for cigarettes. I have seen countless forested areas cut for timber and cattle grazing all over the world. And I have heard and read stories of plant collectors who go into an area, collect all they can find and then burn the area. Averyanov's description of plant collecting in Vietnam is real, but I'll bet you that I could go back into those "devastated" areas right now and find plenty of those "extinct" paphiopedilums. This is because those paphs grow on land that is unsuitable for food production, and because it is not possible to eradicate anything without a massive effort over a very long time, i.e., slash and burn.

The big problem is that forests are being destroyed for food production by native farmers who need to feed their families. I suggest you read the last two chapters in my paph book if you would like to know the real truth, from someone who has actually been there. I doubt that you will like what I wrote and you might not even believe it, but that is your choice.

As I recall, Ted Green told me that his practice is to remove a few growths from plants he collects, and he leaves most of the plant in place. In any case, I'm quite certain that any plant you receive from him is correctly labeled. The quote from the second URL was that species in captivity are frequently being muddied by careless, or even willful mis-labeling and crossing. We see it in orchids often, especially with paphs, ...just look at this forum for a good example. Incidentally, I know very little about hoyas and I don't know if they are legal to collect or not. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if they were suddenly placed under CITES control.

Leo,

Glad to hear there remains some "serious" debates in other plant communities........we shouldn't just keep it all in orchids, now should we? David Liddle sounds like the kind we need more of in the plant world. Incidentally, I collected a then, recently discovered new species of Hoya in the north of Sulawesi in 1978, that a friend in Manila paid a bucket of money for a couple of canes of. I found them by the tree full. I learned later the place was in clove production.


We have a very serious problem with species orchids these days, and I see that it is not entirely restricted to just orchids. In the absence of verifiable identifications for plant species, in particular, collected plants from known locations, it becomes nearly impossible to know which plants are 'good' species anymore..................."Huston, we have a problem."


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## NYEric (Sep 12, 2007)

Interesting thread. I have been avoiding looking at this because I don't know Hoya from Goya. Hope you find what you seek TheLorax. E.

Hahaha, after I wickopediaed it turns out I have one growing acroos the floor!


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## TheLorax (Sep 12, 2007)

"The big problem is that forests are being destroyed for food production by native farmers who need to feed their families. I suggest you read the last two chapters in my paph book if you would like to know the real truth, from someone who has actually been there. I doubt that you will like what I wrote and you might not even believe it, but that is your choice." Perhaps I will take you up on reading the last two chapters of your book right after I finish reading Cribb’s books and then I really need to get to Tullock’s book. I was anxiously looking forward to reading about the amazing diversity of species orchids that you collected and studied from Brazil, Columbia, and Peru but I could easily skip to the last two chapters. 

I've traveled quite a bit and I have been to many of these countries to include the Philippines (haven't been to Viet Nam) and although there is an element of truth to what you say, I don't believe it is the real or rather the whole truth as you would have others believe... from someone who has actually been there also. (wish I knew how to insert that yellow smiley poking the blue smiley right about now)

For what it's worth, the site he returned to didn't exactly read as if "slash and burn" agricultural practices occurred there. At least to me it didn’t read that way. 

Unless the heavy equipment is ready to roll, I see many reasons to leave new species or desirable plants of any species out in the jungle. It's arrogance in my humble opinion to assume that every new or desirable plant of any species out in the jungle is going to die sooner or later anyway. 

"Incidentally, I collected a then, recently discovered new species of Hoya in the north of Sulawesi in 1978, that a friend in Manila paid a bucket of money for a couple of canes of. I found them by the tree full. I learned later the place was in clove production." In my humble opinion, it would have been preferable to have purchased the plant… possibly from the same source as your friend... stimulate the local economy and all and give these people incentive to want to protect their natural resources but then one can save a bucket full of money if one collects from the wild. I have seen many villanize developers hence alienating them. It has been my experience that developers would rather work with conservation groups and the green industry as opposed to working against them and that a little respect goes a long way toward getting that heads up phone call that a site is going to be "improved". 

Fear and intimidation are very powerful tools. Many have mastered the use of them. We can look toward our own history to find many examples of same. How many farmers in the US drained wetlands and plowed under plants on their properties out of fear the government was going to come in and seize their lands if endangered and/or threatened species were discovered to be growing on them all because of a little publication laced with misinformation? 

Wild collection, fire suppression, invasive species, noxious weeds, pesticide and chemical dependencies, industrial interests, pollution, and of course the forests “being destroyed for food production by native farmers who need to feed their families” as well as many other evils are collectively taking an unprecedented toll. To ignore a rapidly diminishing gene pool that once allowed plants to adapt to changing conditions by not focusing on what we can do to make a difference is probably not in our best interests. Best to not take a defeatist attitude right about now because biological diversity is irrefutably essential to human existence. 

All I'm saying is that if everyone rationalized their harvesting from the wild based on how much money one could save by not having to purchase the plants or based on the assumption that the ecosystems in which these new species or desirable plants of any species grow are just going to be destroyed sooner or later by “native farmers who need to feed their families”- what will be left for future generations? It's all about responsible and sustainable collection which doesn't seem to occur in countries where there are no laws on the books to protect "desirable" plants and the fragile ecosystems in which they grow.

I agree with you Lance Birk- “David Liddle sounds like the kind we need more of in the plant world”. 

Hey NYEric, I don't know hoya from goya myself without looking at the plant stakes in each pot but my husband likes white flowering hoyas hanging around our home so I purchase based on what blooms white which appeals to him. He liked the photographs of the blooms on the plants I'd like to add so since he pays the bills, I always try my best to select additions based on his preferences not mine. Me, I like pink and yellow blooms.


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## NYEric (Sep 12, 2007)

You can get them at Wallmart but I don't think I've seen them in flower before,


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## TheLorax (Sep 12, 2007)

I think my husband bought the first few we have from either Home Depot or Menards. He liked the foliage but when he saw some of the understated blooms, he was disappointed. He asked me to check out getting more of these hanging plants for the house but to try to buy hoyas where the blooms would actually show up against the foliage.


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## Heather (Sep 12, 2007)

TheLorax said:


> (wish I knew how to insert that yellow smiley poking the blue smiley right about now)



Lauren - you can click on the emoticon on the right side of the reply to thread screen or your can type : poke: (omitting the space.)


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## TheLorax (Sep 12, 2007)

Thank you Heather. Too late now but I did sort of insert the thought of that being what I had wanted there.


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## Lance Birk (Sep 13, 2007)

My, my, my, isn’t this interesting, The Lorax, since you are unable to present an opposing argument, you resort to name-calling. This adds nothing to the discussion, it only demonstrates your own lack of sophistication. But then, I told you that you wouldn’t believe some of what I wrote and that it would make you angry. Did you even wonder how I knew that? In nearly 3 decades of jungle travel during the last century, I have seen plenty. And when was the last time you were in an area completely isolated from any sort of civilization that would give you the qualifications to discount my own? 

You obviously, have never been to places where the struggle to survive is a life or death situation on a daily basis. It is where there are few if any metal tools, or crop seeds, or clothing, or stores, or where anything useful for humans might be purchased because those natives have no money or anything with which to barter. Besides, they are completely lacking in elemental education.

I have seen things only a tiny handful of men will ever see and have been to places most people do not even believe exist. I have been to places where no white man has been and to places so remote that nearly half the population is inbred albino. I’ve been to places where there is no ‘language,’ as such, and to where an entire village of 1,800 people lay dead from disease. I’ve seen naked farmers barely existing, and whose children had not.

These are places where slash and burn agriculture lives, and it is days by foot or by boat and usually many miles away from any city or town. 

Your comment about your preference for buying plants from native people simply shows how you do not understand the problem. Those people are civilized. For the most part, none of them need to torch the jungle; they are producers, of some sort or another. 

Incidentally, if you thought for just a moment, about the dollar costs of mounting an expedition into the jungle to search for just a single plant you might see just how inane your comment about buying them cheaply from a native really is. My costs for film alone on each trip was in the thousands of dollars. Months of planning, gathering of reference materials and other information simply can’t be counted, as can be travel, lodging, food, medications, equipment, etc., expenses can.

It’s the OTHER native people I’m talking about. THEY are the ones who must cut down acres of forest, burn the old-growth trees to clear the land and to provide some basic semblance of fertilizer, plant their tubers or cuttings, …and then move to another plot 3 years later because that’s the most they can squeeze from the nutrient-poor soils. There are millions and millions of them. When the rains don’t come or the plague does, well, …Darwin’s theory keeps their populations down. But not forever. And then there is the charcoal producer. Everyone needs fuel to cook their food….

I used to believe all that ‘stuff’ people throw out as facts, …that was until I went there and saw for myself what real truth was. As I said, I’m not surprised at your disbelief; you, like most everyone else are simply too invested in the lies you have been fed. What surprises me is that so many seemingly intelligent people do not have the ability or the curiosity to question anymore.

It doesn’t really matter if you believe what I say or write because you are not the one who will make the difference.


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## NYEric (Sep 13, 2007)

Wow, touchy!


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## Lance Birk (Sep 13, 2007)

Touchy??? I think not. 

I don't like being called a liar anymore than you would.


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## NYEric (Sep 13, 2007)

Anyone is entitled to their opinion as to what is "the whole truth". I don't think that it was an attack, or name calling. You can dispute it and present an contradicting argument. That is the point of having this avenue for discourse.


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## TheLorax (Sep 13, 2007)

No Eric, not that touchy. There are evidently people here who are simply not pleased having their belief system challenged and will brook no opinion to the contrary. They find it easy to dismiss the belief systems of others as simple contrarianism and attempt to assign it the status of religion. It would appear his underlying assumption is that anyone who disagrees with his position is automatically and unequivocally wrong. Not all people who hold opposing views are necessarily malevolent, egostistical, naive, ignorant, or wrong. 

John Godfrey Saxe's ( 1816-1887) version of the famous Indian legend


> It was six men of Indostan
> To learning much inclined,
> Who went to see the Elephant
> (Though all of them were blind),
> ...



Oh ouch Lance Birk! I feel your pain. Think I'll go toddle off and buy some more plants from nurseries that I feel relatively confident don't field collect. 

As Margaret Meade puts it


> Never underestimate the ability of a small group of people to change the world; indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.


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## TheLorax (Sep 13, 2007)

Oh geeze, more posts while I was cutting and pasting.

Lance Birk, no one is calling you a liar. I do not accept your interpretation of what you have seen as being the whole truth though. If you want to field collect, go for it.


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