# kovachii So Far



## Gcroz (Jan 16, 2012)

There has been a lot of discussion about kovachii as a parent and as a stand alone, the prices, the colors, the form, etc. I thought it might be thought provoking to start a thread in which we can all discuss the pros and cons so far.

Since i'm poking the hornets nest, I think I'll step back and wait to comment.:evil:


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## nikv (Jan 16, 2012)

Okay, I'm gonna say it. I have yet to see a kovachii hybrid that compares to the species itself. I've never seen one in person, however. But from the photos I've seen, the pure species is far more spectacular than any of its hybrids.


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## Shiva (Jan 16, 2012)

My own observation is that kovachi and hybrids are steadily improving with shape and color. The first ones I remember seing were often misshapen with unsteady colors. Maybe many of the plants are getting better as they get older.


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## Gcroz (Jan 16, 2012)

Personally, I agree that the straight kovachii is more interesting to me. Personally, I find the similarity in colors between the hybrids to be rather uninteresting. Maybe one day there will be a red hybrid that has the size of kovachii, but the color, shape, and form of Jason Fischer! To me that would be on my "must have" list. 

Does onayone know what Phrag. Glenn Decker (kovachii x Jason Fischer) looks like or have a picture of one?


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## gonewild (Jan 16, 2012)

Need to see the next generation of hybrids. AND need to see primary hybrids made with highly selected parents rather than just what was in bloom at the same time.


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## NYEric (Jan 16, 2012)

gonewild said:


> Need to see the next generation of hybrids. AND need to see primary hybrids made with highly selected parents rather than just what was in bloom at the same time.



True. Personally, I think the hybrids bring the added benefit of blooming on smaller plants than straight Pk. Plus, although Pk's color is nice the hybrids make a range of colors.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jan 16, 2012)

I have one kovachii hybrid that has bloomed for me. I've seen a few at the last GNYOS show, and the rest have been in pictures. Not a one has impressed me as much as even the most ordinary of the straight species, which I have seen only in photos. Basically, I am not impressed by phrag hybrids in general. I think all the species beat out all the hybrids. I'll take a besseae over its millions of monotonous hybrids any day. I have yet to see a Grande that looks like anything greater than a defective caudatum. I love paph hybrids, I think that there is a great variety among them , and the hybrids enhance a lot of species characteristics, so I will always be as happy with the crosses as I am with the species. But phrag hybrids are just too repetitive...with none matching the original species appearance and characteristics.


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## valenzino (Jan 17, 2012)

gonewild said:


> Need to see the next generation of hybrids. AND need to see primary hybrids made with highly selected parents rather than just what was in bloom at the same time.



Agree,2nd gneration x kovachii hybrids will start to show the real potential...and also a great work on selection,will produce selected mother plants and give an idea to breeders on how kovachii interacts in hybrids,and show how to better do also primaries....


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## Gcroz (Jan 17, 2012)

Out of curiosity, does anyone know why the breeders chose to make the first hybrids with the plants they did? For example, Andean Tears while interesting, is rather ugly. No offense to those who have them. Choosing besseae and dalessandoi makes sense, but why the others? Was it merely what was blooming at the time?


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## Gcroz (Jan 17, 2012)

Anyone want to chime in and tell us why PK hybrids so far are great? Seems a lot cons, not to many pros.


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## gonewild (Jan 17, 2012)

Gcroz said:


> Out of curiosity, does anyone know why the breeders chose to make the first hybrids with the plants they did? For example, Andean Tears while interesting, is rather ugly. No offense to those who have them. Choosing besseae and dalessandoi makes sense, but why the others? Was it merely what was blooming at the time?



The first hybrids were made in Peru. In Peru there are not very many Phrag hybrids available. The ones that were/are available are not necessarily great quality. The first kovachii hybrids were made with whatever pollen or plant was in bloom at the time. The rush to be first.


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## gonewild (Jan 17, 2012)

Gcroz said:


> Anyone want to chime in and tell us why PK hybrids so far are great? Seems a lot cons, not to many pros.



I think they are great in that they are laying the foundation for some spectacular hybrids of the future.

They are great because they add a lot of excitement and interest into the orchid hobby. Just wait until you see what breeders do with kovachii in the coming generations....


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## goldenrose (Jan 17, 2012)

Hmmm - interesting thread!


Gcroz said:


> .... Maybe one day there will be a red hybrid that has the size of kovachii, but the color, shape, and form of Jason Fischer! To me that would be on my "must have" list.
> 
> Does onayone know what Phrag. Glenn Decker (kovachii x Jason Fischer) looks like or have a picture of one?


Give it time, it will probably happen. Don't think that would be on my want list, at least not for the same reasons. Color, shape & form is what makes it kovachii! I'm at the point where no phrag is on my want list, there's too many bess X's that are all beginning to look alike, I'm partial to the species, have none because I don't do well at growing it! :-(



Gcroz said:


> Anyone want to chime in and tell us why PK hybrids so far are great? Seems a lot cons, not to many pros.


Great or greatness is a hard thing to measure especially with the newness of kovachii. I'm in agreement Lance, well put! 
As for CONS, again, that will be changing as we get to know & grow kovachii correctly. Any newly introduced species typically goes thru the same growing pains.


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## NYEric (Jan 17, 2012)

Size isn't everything but...the blooms are Huge and the colors and forms are different and interesting, IMO. Certainly a lot of the besseae hybrids are similar so this variety is enjoyable.


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## Erythrone (Jan 17, 2012)

Gcroz said:


> For example, Andean Tears while interesting, is rather ugly. No offense to those who have them.



:sob::sob:


OK, I will cry.............


(I am just kidding!! It is a matter of taste)


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## NYEric (Jan 17, 2012)

I like Andean Tears, the color, so far, is pretty unique, and the form will appeal to those who like long petal phrags.


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## Gcroz (Jan 17, 2012)

NYEric said:


> Size isn't everything but...the blooms are Huge and the colors and forms are different and interesting, IMO. Certainly a lot of the besseae hybrids are similar so this variety is enjoyable.



Agreed, but to me the size of PK is what makes it exciting. That and the color. Obviously, everyone's taste is different.

SORRY Erythrone, no offense. Just my personal taste. I do like the spots it has however!


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## Gcroz (Jan 17, 2012)

gonewild said:


> The first hybrids were made in Peru. In Peru there are not very many Phrag hybrids available. The ones that were/are available are not necessarily great quality. The first kovachii hybrids were made with whatever pollen or plant was in bloom at the time. The rush to be first.



Thanks! It did seem that way, but one can never be sure when it comes to the hybridizer's mind. 

I forgot to mention that PK will always have a special place in my mind and heart. When the controversy over the plant, and the story of how everything went down, became public I was in law school. In particular, I was taking environmental law as a class and PK provided a lot of interesting talking points and arguments. Later on, I had the occasion to meet Mrs. Kovach when she came to the nursery I was working at. Needless to say, her life had been turned upside down. 

After meeting Mrs. Kovach, I began to wonder how, in light of what happens globally, Kovach became such a pariah in the orchid community. Did having his name attached to this plant make being a pariah worthwhile? Will his reputation ever be repaired? Just a few more talking points.:evil:

Hope everyone is finding this thread enjoyable and interesting!


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## gonewild (Jan 17, 2012)

Gcroz said:


> Thanks! It did seem that way, but one can never be sure when it comes to the hybridizer's mind.



Just to add a little to the parent selection process for the first hybrids.
it is very difficult to legally import plants into Peru. The orchid growers in Peru do not have the quality of Phrag hybrids that we have here. When suddenly kovachii was in culrivation by 2 nurseries that had permission to reproduce the plants and sell the production there was not quality awarded clones of besseae hybrids to select from for breeding. Because kovachii is CITES apx1 there was no legal method to transfer pollen out of Peru to make legal hybrids. And there was no permits available to legally transfer in pollen or plants to use to hybridize kovachii with. SO the two nurseries used what they had available to make the first crosses. Some collectors in Peru did have quality plants but likely they were smuggled into the country. Here's the catch 22, INRENA (Peru's Ag Dept) requires that all seed pods created with the kovachii plants be registered when the pod is still on the plant. That means that any pollen put on a kovachii plant must come from a known source. To be able to use pollen from someones private collection of plants their plant would need to have "immigration" papers to show INRENA that the plant was legal. Who is going to admit to having a smuggled plant? So the only legal option was to use lessor quality legal plants to make the first hybrids. Sure someone could easily smuggle in pollen from awarded plants to use but that would make all of the offspring illegal under CITES and now under the Lacey Act. 

Probably the approach that should have been used would have been to use all of the kovachii flowers to reproduce more kovachii species and to not make hybrids. Then more plants of the species could have been exported at lower prices. Had this been done we still would not have any kovachii hybrids in bloom at this date.

If Kovach had not been prosecuted I'm sure the kovachii time schedule would have moved faster.


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## NYEric (Jan 17, 2012)

Yes we know how well EYOF followed the rules!


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## Gcroz (Jan 17, 2012)

NYEric said:


> Yes we know how well EYOF followed the rules!



And we all know that it when it comes to equality under the law, "Some animals are more equal than others." To quote George Orwell

I will admit my ignorance as to what you mean regarding EYOF. Do tell.


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## NYEric (Jan 17, 2012)

Look at the list of Pk phrags. This will give you a hint to when they started making hybrids. :ninja:


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## Shiva (Jan 17, 2012)

Perhaps we need to find a new spectacular phrag species that will take the pressure off kovachii hybrids. Give it some time. I'm sure there are grander things to come.


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## wonderlen3000 (Jan 17, 2012)

I think the problem with any Phrag hybrids is they are too monotone in both color and shape. Sure there are a few exceptional hybrids, but good clones are really hard to come by. I mean how many times they going to keep making besseae crosses back to beassae type hybrids??? Jason Fisher, Scarlet Ohara, MDC, etc etc....that pretty looks the same...

I have seen Pk hybrid in show n the size is just wow... but the color is rather dissapointing..


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## Gcroz (Jan 17, 2012)

wonderlen3000 said:


> I think the problem with any Phrag hybrids is they are too monotone in both color and shape.



I agree with this, the phrag hybrids available today are fairly similar. I find myself in a tougher situation in which phrag hybrids that are either green, or brown, or ochre I find to be hideous. So, I do like the besseae hybrids and those with colors other than the aforementioned, but agree that the shapes are rather monotonous from hybrid to hybrid.

Yet, will PK really change this...


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## NYEric (Jan 18, 2012)

If you search thru the phrag photos for flavum hybrids you'll find a variety of colors.


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## Dantheman (Jan 18, 2012)

In terms of colour at least I agree with the above flavum based hybrids have produced some nice results.


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