# Paph names



## eOrchids (Feb 26, 2007)

I was wondering why do some Paph hybrid have names such as Prince Edward of York or St. Swithin and others don't have one such as Paph. kolopakingii v. topperi x randsii. Could someone please explain this? Thanks.


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## likespaphs (Feb 26, 2007)

one is allowed to name a hybrid if one is the first to get it awarded.
it may be that no one has gotten one of those awarded yet. 
or, if someone has already made the tags for plants, then the cross is awarded and named, people don't wanna redo all the tags so they just don't change 'em....


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## eOrchids (Feb 26, 2007)

thanks for the explanation!


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## Bob Wellenstein (Feb 26, 2007)

Sorry, but that reply is incorrect. The maker of the hybrid has the right reserved to name it. It cannot be named until it flowers. Only if the hybridizer gives permission in writing can someone else name it. You can request permission, and if it is denied by the hybridizer, then if it is not registered within six months by the hybridizer you may do so. If the hybridizer is unknown, you must make a concerted effort to find out who it is before registering a hybrid as originator unknown. In this electronic age that should include using forums such as this to be ethical.


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## likespaphs (Feb 26, 2007)

thanks for the clarification. wonder where i got my info....
hmm. perhaps i made it up.
so if several people happen to make the same hybrid, all selling flasks (let's say) to people and someone buys a flask, then is it the hybridizer who's plant blooms first that gets to name it?
what if someone like me bought a flask from each of the hybridizers and gets mixed up as to from whom they got it, i wonder who gets to name it then...


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## Bob Wellenstein (Feb 26, 2007)

Probably on another forum, two come to mind where censorship have eliminated virtually all of the people who have a long involvement in orchids.

It is interesting to see people upset about topics here, where they at least have the ability to freely respond, as opposed to on a closed forum where you have to pay (on many levels) to respond, or as many of them have preferred for years, in jealous wispers of rumor and innuendo behind the backs of their targets.

The opening line from a book review I read friday: "Plato believed that truth emerges only through dialogue, and Socrates said that philosophy should always take the form of conversation." -Anthony Gottlieb in the Wall Street Journal


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## gonewild (Feb 26, 2007)

likespaphs said:


> thanks for the clarification. wonder where i got my info....
> hmm. perhaps i made it up.
> so if several people happen to make the same hybrid, all selling flasks (let's say) to people and someone buys a flask, then is it the hybridizer who's plant blooms first that gets to name it?
> what if someone like me bought a flask from each of the hybridizers and gets mixed up as to from whom they got it, i wonder who gets to name it then...



I think you confused registering a hew hybrid with naming a clone of an individual plant of a hybrid.

When a plant is awarded the owner can then register a clonal name to append to the registered hybrids name.


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## Heather (Feb 26, 2007)

This isn't particularly helpful if you think that kolopakingii var. topperi is worthy of species status, but kolopakingii x randsii is actually Wossner Kolorands. I bet you can guess who registered the cross.


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## likespaphs (Feb 26, 2007)

gonewild said:


> I think you confused registering a hew hybrid with naming a clone of an individual plant of a hybrid....



nope. for some reason i thought it was the first person to bloom a cross got to name it.
oh well.... learn somethin' new everyday.


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## NYEric (Feb 27, 2007)

Anybody know who made the moquettianum x delanatii


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## slippertalker (Feb 27, 2007)

For registration purposes moquettianum is identical to glaucophyllum, so the hybrid is Paph Delophyllum which was registered in 1940 by Black & Flory.


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## littlefrog (Feb 27, 2007)

NYEric said:


> Anybody know who made the moquettianum x delanatii



The ones I have labelled that way came from Ratcliffe. Whether he was the first to make this particular combination or not I do not know. I agree it should be synonymous with Dellophyllum, but I don't think the RHS agrees.


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## eOrchids (Mar 6, 2007)

So let me get this straight, if I got topperi x randsii to flower and there's no name register for it. I can name the plant, right?


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## kentuckiense (Mar 6, 2007)

eOrchids said:


> So let me get this straight, if I got topperi x randsii to flower and there's no name register for it. I can name the plant, right?



As Heather said, this cross is Wossner Kolorands because I'm pretty sure topperi is considered a synonym of kolopakingii by the RHS (for breeding purposes, at least. Please correct me if I'm wrong). Additionally, you couldn't name it. Well, you could, but only with the permission of the person who actually made the cross. That's what I gathered from this thread, at least.


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## NYEric (Mar 8, 2007)

Dellophyllum, Thanx.


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## slippertalker (Mar 8, 2007)

The bottom line is that the breeder names the cross or allows the 3rd party to register it with RHS. If you didn't create the cross, then you can't name it without permission. The specific clone can be named by the grower, and has to be named if it is awarded.


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## Jason Fischer (Mar 8, 2007)

slippertalker said:


> For registration purposes moquettianum is identical to glaucophyllum, so the hybrid is Paph Delophyllum which was registered in 1940 by Black & Flory.



For a quick FYI, the RHS now recognizes moquettianum as a seperate species, therefore any hybrid made with moquettianum can be registered now. We have already done this with moquettianum x liemianum (Paph. Amarantine). This also means moquettianum x delenatii can have a new registration name.


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## Ray (Mar 9, 2007)

Gotta throw another correction in there: "clonal" or cultivar names are not registered, and one need not get a plant awarded to assign one. One must, on the other hand, assign a cultivar epithet to a plant in order to get an award (to keep it separated from other of the same hybrid or species).

It is unethical to change one, so if it is already assigned, you cannot rename it.


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## NYEric (Mar 9, 2007)

Jason Fischer said:


> For a quick FYI, the RHS now recognizes moquettianum as a seperate species, therefore any hybrid made with moquettianum can be registered now. We have already done this with moquettianum x liemianum (Paph. Amarantine). This also means moquettianum x delenatii can have a new registration name.


Thanx, I notice the picture didn't match the photos of Dellophyllum I saw on the web. Maybe the hybrids can be used to separate species thought to be the same [but w/ diff names].


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## slippertalker (Mar 9, 2007)

The problem with this cross, and many others is that species such as moquettianum and glaucophyllum have been considered identical for a number of years, then RHS changes the game. Prior versions of Paph Delophyllum could use either species (subspecies) even though the results would be different. The registration process is inconsistent at best, and there is no way to get the cat back into the bag once its let out.
Similar problems exists with Paph praestans/glanduliferum,etc and the Phrag lindleyanum, sargentianum group.


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## Roy (Mar 10, 2007)

Registrations are a problem. Last year I think, a Paph cross was registered as Caroline Hands = moquettianum x rothschildianum. I e-mailed the RHS Registrar explaining that P.moquett', I thought was a variety of P.glaucophyllum which would have made this cross P.Vanguard, named decades ago. He e-mailed me back with "OOPS, how did that get through". Ok, we'll just make P moquettianum a separate species and that will fix it!
BTW, I agree with this move.
They did and now if you look at many P.Vanguards, you are probably seeing many P.Caroline Hands!!!! As with many 'glaucophyllum' registered crosses, P.moquettianum shows through fairly heavily. In the long run, as with many of the "primary hybrid" registrations and back crossings using the "chamberlainianum/victoria regina, glaucophyllum family, your guess is as good as mine as to what was actually used.


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## lienluu (Mar 10, 2007)

eOrchids said:


> So let me get this straight, if I got topperi x randsii to flower and there's no name register for it. I can name the plant, right?



Yes and no. If a hybrid blooms for you that is not registered, you can name it, provided you are the creator of the cross, or you have permission from the person who made the cross. If the person who made the cross does not give you permission to name it, then you can not do so. Bob Wellenstein explained this in an earlier post in this thread.


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## NYEric (Mar 11, 2007)

Suppose different people made the cross?


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