# What is the real Paph primulinum?



## Drorchid (Nov 2, 2009)

In a previous thread (http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13973) we had a discussion regarding Paph. primulinum. According to sanderianum a lot of the primulinum's on the market are not true primulinum's but at one point or other have been crossed with different species (either moquetteanum or glaucophyllum) resulting in larger more fuller flowers. Here is his last post:



Sanderianum said:


> The problem with those different Pinnochio is that there are many type of crosses under that name in the pot-plant trade. By choosing the proper one, people can sell glaucophyllum album, or the rarer, more expensive moquetteanum album, or primulinum under steroids.
> 
> To sum up:
> - Pinnochio F1 = primulinum x glaucophyllum or moquetteanum at that time. No use for the yellow scam, they are all colored.
> ...



I actually have to agree with sanderianum, that some of the primulinums that are for sale are probably of hybrid origin. We however do have some primulinums in our collection that we have had for about 20 to 25 years, those have been line bred for 3 to 4 generations (Thus far I know we have not mixed them with other primulinums). Following are some pictures:

The regular form (or the yellow form):

An older generation flower:






One of our newest seedlings:










Plant:






close up of leaf:






colored form (primulum var purpurescens):






plant:






Sanderianum mentioned that the true primulinum is fragrant. I had never noticed that, so today smelled the flowers, and to my suprise the primulinum purpurescens had a faint sweet almost honey like fragrance. I could not detect a fragrance on the yellow form.

Robert


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## Drorchid (Nov 2, 2009)

Now a few months ago we got a bunch of primulinum's that were bred from Taiwan ('Ching Hua #3' x 'Ching Hua #5'). To me they looked totally different, and I was suspicious that they are indeed the true species, but are actually Paph. Pinocchio or Avalon Mist. 

Here is a picture of our primulinum (below) with the Taiwanese strain (above) :






The flowers of the Taiwanese strain are much larger, and have a flatter dorsal.

Also the foliage is larger and wider:






the 2 strains next to each other (Taiwanese strain to the left, ours to the right):






Another thing I noticed, is that in the Taiwanese strain there is some mottling in the foliage; this is specially visible in the younger foliage:











So my conclusion is similar to Sanderianum, that in this case we are probably dealing with some kind of hybrid.

Robert


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## Drorchid (Nov 2, 2009)

You could think that maybe the Taiwanese strain are 4N primulinums. Sanderianum mentioned that there were some supposedly 4N primulinum's on the market that were actually hybrids as well. We actually have a 4N primulinum that is a true 4N (I counted the chromosomes and confirmed this). The leaves on this plant are very skinny and the plant is much smaller that the Taiwanese strain. Also the color of the flower is very different compared to the Taiwanese strain of primulinum. In a tetraploid you expect the flowers to be more intense compared to a diploid, and indeed the flower color is more yellow on our 4N plant compared to our regular 2N plants. So when I compare our 4N primulinum to the Taiwanes strain I don't think that they are 4N primulinum's (but I will have to count the chromosomes to confirm this) Here is a picture of the flower of our 4N primulinum 'Kings Crown':






Robert


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## slippertalker (Nov 2, 2009)

I agree very much with Sanderianum about the much larger and white pouched "primulinums". All of the plants that I remember when they were first imported were quite compact, in fact definably smaller than other cochlopetalums, and the flowers were yellow with a green staminode. No white pouch.....and the flowers were significantly smaller than others in the same group.


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## nikv (Nov 2, 2009)

Interesting discussion. So could the Taiwanese primulinums be the result of line breeding or are they definitely hybrids? And thanks for the photo of the primulum var purpurescens. I need to get one of those into my collection.


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## Drorchid (Nov 2, 2009)

nikv said:


> Interesting discussion. So could the Taiwanese primulinums be the result of line breeding or are they definitely hybrids? And thanks for the photo of the primulum var purpurescens. I need to get one of those into my collection.



I think they are hybrids. You cannot get "mottling" in the foliage due to line breeding.

Robert


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## Drorchid (Nov 2, 2009)

Now the question is, which one do you prefer, and do you really care if it is a true species or a hybrid. If you would have the choice to buy a plant that you know for sure is the true Paph primulinum, but has smaller flowers with a some what reflexed dorsal, or you could buy a plant that is also labeled Paph. primulinum, but there is a chance it may actually be a hybrid. This flower is much larger and has a better shape to it. Which one would you buy (if the price was the same)?

Just curious to see what peoples opinions are.....

Robert


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## paphioboy (Nov 2, 2009)

Interesting thread. Thanks for the pics, Robert..  That Taiwanese hybrid is unbelievable, almost twice the size of a regular prim.. I want it, whatever it may be. hehe


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## paphioboy (Nov 2, 2009)

IMHO, I would go for the hybrid..


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## nikv (Nov 2, 2009)

I happen to love the cochlopetalums, so I would get one of each. :rollhappy:


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## NYEric (Nov 2, 2009)

I would hope that since people are trying to purchace primulinums that they get what they are asking for; or, are told they are buying hybrids.


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## delphiguy (Nov 2, 2009)

wow interesting thread and educational too.


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## Kavanaru (Nov 2, 2009)

Drorchid said:


> Now a few months ago we got a bunch of primulinum's that were bred from Taiwan ('Ching Hua #3' x 'Ching Hua #5'). To me they looked totally different, and I was suspicious that they are indeed the true species, but are actually Paph. Pinocchio or Avalon Mist.
> 
> Here is a picture of our primulinum (below) with the Taiwanese strain (above) :
> 
> ...



interesting...

Robert, you mentioned the cross 'Ching Hua #3' x 'Ching Hua #5', and showed obvious differences to what you present here as true primulinum... 

I have received one plant of the cross 'Ching Hua #3' x 'Ching Hua #5' from you, and this plant is currently in bloom. However, the flower is more similar (color, shape and size - unless you have really tiny thumbs ) to the smaller flower you present here... Doe sthis mean, this cross would also have such a great variability, that separating it from real primulinum would be impossible to 100%, based on size, color and shape? (I do not speak from fragrance, I have not checked if my plant is fragrant yet)


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## Roy (Nov 2, 2009)

Interesting topic Robert, with the mottle in the leaves you highlighted, is there a possibility that there could be a dose of P.moquettianum fma flavoiride in the breeding ???


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## Roth (Nov 2, 2009)

Roy said:


> Interesting topic Robert, with the mottle in the leaves you highlighted, is there a possibility that there could be a dose of P.moquettianum fma flavoiride in the breeding ???



Robert pictures are great so is his presentation of the true vs fake ones... As for the fragrance, try to get several people to smell the flowers, some will definitely find it. The same for rothschildianum, they all have a pepper fragrance for me and some friends, and no smell for some others...

Moquetteanum fma. flavoviride NEVER existed at any time, they are all. without a single exception, hybrids. The same for glaucophyllum album, such a plant does not exist.


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## kentuckiense (Nov 2, 2009)

Drorchid said:


> Now the question is, which one do you prefer, and do you really care if it is a true species or a hybrid. If you would have the choice to buy a plant that you know for sure is the true Paph primulinum, but has smaller flowers with a some what reflexed dorsal, or you could buy a plant that is also labeled Paph. primulinum, but there is a chance it may actually be a hybrid. This flower is much larger and has a better shape to it. Which one would you buy (if the price was the same)?
> 
> Just curious to see what peoples opinions are.....
> 
> Robert



I would absolutely, positively, 100% much rather have the true primulinum.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 2, 2009)

I like species, and if I was buying a primulinum, I'd want it to be the true species...after all, one of the charms of primulinum is its tiny size. (Has anyone crossed it with thaianum?) Good size is fine to, but for that I'd get a hybrid...but then again, I'll get my hybrids among other types...for cochlo's I'll stick with species. Take care, Eric


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## SlipperFan (Nov 2, 2009)

If I wanted the species primulinum, I would absolutely take the one that is certain. I would be unhappy if I purchased a primulinum thinking it was the species, only to find it was a hybrid.

That being said, I'd love to have the hybrid white-pouched primulinum, but I'd also want to know the true parents.


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## SlipperKing (Nov 3, 2009)

species for me. I don't want no NOID


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## UweM (Nov 3, 2009)

Paph. primulinum = without mottled leaves ?

Here you can see a former normally plant, which was cultivated 2 years under
fluorescent tube "Fluora" from an orchidfriend - chlorose?? :


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## Drorchid (Nov 3, 2009)

Kavanaru said:


> interesting...
> 
> Robert, you mentioned the cross 'Ching Hua #3' x 'Ching Hua #5', and showed obvious differences to what you present here as true primulinum...
> 
> I have received one plant of the cross 'Ching Hua #3' x 'Ching Hua #5' from you, and this plant is currently in bloom. However, the flower is more similar (color, shape and size - unless you have really tiny thumbs ) to the smaller flower you present here... Doe sthis mean, this cross would also have such a great variability, that separating it from real primulinum would be impossible to 100%, based on size, color and shape? (I do not speak from fragrance, I have not checked if my plant is fragrant yet)



Yes, it is true I have noticed some variation within the plants for size of the Taiwanese plants. The one that I showed probably had the largest flowers and that is why I kept it. If the Taiwanese strain is a hybrid (say (moquetteanum x primulinum) x primulinum) you would expect to see some variation in flower size. Some would have the size of a pure primulinum and some the size of a moquetteanum. So, yes to answer your question, It will be hard to separate them just based on size (although the average size of the flowers within a hybrid population will be larger than in the pure species). However if you see some mottling in the foliage, that is a good tell tell sign that you are dealing with a hybrid, as pure primulinum's never have any mottling in the foliage. Another characteristic that I find different is the dorsal. in a pure primulinum it is not as round, and somewhat reflexed. In the hybrid it tends to be larger, flatter and more round in shape.

Robert


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## Drorchid (Nov 3, 2009)

UweM said:


> Paph. primulinum = without mottled leaves ?
> 
> Here you can see a former normally plant, which was cultivated 2 years under
> fluorescent tube "Fluora" from an orchidfriend - chlorose?? :



What you are showing is not the same type of mottling that I was showing, but is more of a nutrient deficiency (chlorosis).

Robert


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## Drorchid (Nov 3, 2009)

Roy said:


> Interesting topic Robert, with the mottle in the leaves you highlighted, is there a possibility that there could be a dose of P.moquettianum fma flavoiride in the breeding ???



Not necessarily the flavoride form (and according to Sanderianum that does not even exist), but I do think moquetteanum is in the background; If you would cross a regular moquetteanum to a yellow primulinum, the resulting hybrid would have all colored flowers. If you backcross the hybrid to the yellow primulinum 50% of them should turn out yellow and 50% colored.

Robert


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## Drorchid (Nov 3, 2009)

Sanderianum said:


> Robert pictures are great so is his presentation of the true vs fake ones... As for the fragrance, try to get several people to smell the flowers, some will definitely find it. The same for rothschildianum, they all have a pepper fragrance for me and some friends, and no smell for some others...
> 
> Moquetteanum fma. flavoviride NEVER existed at any time, they are all. without a single exception, hybrids. The same for glaucophyllum album, such a plant does not exist.



Sanderianum, do you think that both our line's of primulinums derived from plants that Jerry got 20 to 25 years ago are the True primulinum ? (and when I say both our line's I mean the yellow form and the purpurescens form).

Robert


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## Roth (Nov 4, 2009)

Drorchid said:


> Sanderianum, do you think that both our line's of primulinums derived from plants that Jerry got 20 to 25 years ago are the True primulinum ? (and when I say both our line's I mean the yellow form and the purpurescens form).
> 
> Robert



Nearly sure about that... Even the leaves do match according to your pictures.

About the Ching Hua and this kind of things, the Taiwanese are famous for doing first the listing of the plants they plan to sell, primulinum 1 x 2, or sanderianum 140cm x sanderianum98cm flasks, then they contact their friends who have something that could match, take the plants, and put the tags with nice pictures. It is very rare that in Taiwan the seedlings are really of the given parents. So if the supplier was out of stock of the primulinum AxB sold under the CH1 x CH2, Ching Hua will order from another supplier primulinum, and put the tags. End of the story.

That was really a joke with those rothschildianum Big Garden x Dou Fong, Dou Fong x Flying Eagle, etc... The Taiwaneses were swapping the tags so fast that they did not realize that they could supply the same customer with 2-3 different strains of rothschildianum months apart under the same name. Roths have leaves that are quite typical of the strains, and some were from the giant leafed roths, some from Charles E x Borneo, some from Rex x MM selfings, lots of stuff sold under many different names. Some of the batches were of extremely high flower quality, but none had the proper tag.



I remember some years ago I saw a novelty hybrid of stonei x ??? that was made by Stewart orchids. It looked like a stonei on steroids, there were pictures on another paphiopedilum forum let's say, and there were plenty of seedlings that have been released maybe 15 years ago... Then a couple years ago, the Taiwanese started to get stonei awarded that look a lot like that complex hybrid - which is really not easy to tell apart from stonei... I got flasks of those awarded stonei in february. Today the seedlings are over 30cm leafspan. I am nearly sure they are not pure stonei to grow at that speed, and their growth is so uniform... Stonei will maybe be the next one on the list of fake species.

As for stonei album, I got one of the earlier divisions, but there were too many divisions sold 10 years ago. I knew of only 3 sold at that time, but in fact, the sellers asked every customer to shut up, and the total, to my knowledge, is over 20 divisions. So again I have a BIG doubt as to what those stonei album are, or even if stonei album really exists, or if it is not an F2 of Mt Toro made with philippinense album...

I know that stonei album x philippinense album does not give albino progeny, but there are several different strains of philippinense album around, with different albinism behavior, so it is not a proof that stonei album is a real, different albino. Time will tell, but I would be highly interested to know people who have bloomed the selfings....


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## Ernie (Nov 4, 2009)

SlipperFan said:


> If I wanted the species primulinum, I would absolutely take the one that is certain. I would be unhappy if I purchased a primulinum thinking it was the species, only to find it was a hybrid.
> 
> That being said, I'd love to have the hybrid white-pouched primulinum, but I'd also want to know the true parents.



Dot,

I'm with you. I like to know the real identity of my plants. Glad ncart started this discussion. 

-Ernie


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## cnycharles (Nov 4, 2009)

Drorchid said:


> Now the question is, which one do you prefer, and do you really care if it is a true species or a hybrid. If you would have the choice to buy a plant that you know for sure is the true Paph primulinum, but has smaller flowers with a some what reflexed dorsal, or you could buy a plant that is also labeled Paph. primulinum, but there is a chance it may actually be a hybrid. This flower is much larger and has a better shape to it. Which one would you buy (if the price was the same)?
> 
> Just curious to see what peoples opinions are.....
> 
> Robert



If I wanted to own a plant of paph primulinum to be part of a collection, I would be buying the smaller (true) plant. The shape wouldn't matter if it was the true species. If I just wanted a plant with a big yellow flower who cares what the name was, then I'd buy the taiwanese one since the name wouldn't really matter. I let an uncheap plant die (mealybugs) because it was obvious that is wasn't the true species I thought when I bought it, though I have another that's a phal that I'll probably keep because of who I bought it from (though I am still trying to find the true species (of phal mariae))


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## Roy (Nov 4, 2009)

cnycharles said:


> If I wanted to own a plant of paph primulinum to be part of a collection, I would be buying the smaller (true) plant. The shape wouldn't matter if it was the true species. If I just wanted a plant with a big yellow flower who cares what the name was, then I'd buy the taiwanese one since the name wouldn't really matter. I let an uncheap plant die (mealybugs) because it was obvious that is wasn't the true species I thought when I bought it, though I have another that's a phal that I'll probably keep because of who I bought it from (though I am still trying to find the true species (of phal mariae))



This all sounds good for the hobbyist but when it comes to the commercial growers using these questionable clones, the results are adding to the major confusion in the stud book we already have. That is, no matter what the label says when one of these clones are used, we are not buying what we think we are. This also leads to the show bench and a judge asking, "is this true to form", under the present discussion we would have to say "doubtful".
Further breeding with theses seedlings just multiplies the problem out of site.


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## Roth (Nov 5, 2009)

Roy said:


> This all sounds good for the hobbyist but when it comes to the commercial growers using these questionable clones, the results are adding to the major confusion in the stud book we already have. That is, no matter what the label says when one of these clones are used, we are not buying what we think we are. This also leads to the show bench and a judge asking, "is this true to form", under the present discussion we would have to say "doubtful".
> Further breeding with theses seedlings just multiplies the problem out of site.



That's a key problem... There is the same story with the Brazilian cattleyas, the Brazilians have bred so much the catts walkeriana with nobilior, labiata with trianae, etc... that now any 'real' species looks bleak compared to those fancy colored fake species... 

For paphs, there are a lot of weird plants over the last 15 years mostly. Before the problem was quite rare. I tend to think that in the early days whoever had roth sedlings, or something like that, would sell them. And there were few nurseries in fact. Now, with the competition, many people are ready to invent or sell hybrids to make profit.

Some weeks ago I have seen as well a charlesworthii album in Thailand, massive plant. It is clearly an hybrid with a complex green paph, due to the leaves, and to its owner, but if that plant goes for judging, for sure there will be no way to award a real charlesworthii album anymore...


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