# Permit for Plant import



## ehanes7612 (Sep 19, 2012)

anyone know how long it takes for the USDA office in Maryland to process plant import forms?


----------



## gonewild (Sep 19, 2012)

ehanes7612 said:


> anyone know how long it takes for the USDA office in Maryland to process plant import forms?



Last time it took them less than a week for a plant import permit. 
But CITES permit takes months.


----------



## ehanes7612 (Sep 19, 2012)

CITES /Phyto is being done by the exporter ..they said all i need is an import number..


----------



## ehanes7612 (Sep 19, 2012)

would i need to get a Cites too? geez, i hope not


----------



## gonewild (Sep 19, 2012)

Are you importing plants or in-vitro flasks?

The exporter will supply their export CITES certificates and a Phyto 

BUT
If you are importing CITES listed species you need also to have a Permit to Import protected species in addition to the permit to import live plants.

Some artificially propagated plants are exempt.

Read here... http://www.fws.gov/permits/faqs/FaqNOPQ.html


----------



## ehanes7612 (Sep 19, 2012)

so if i am importing artificially propogated leucochilum i need an import CITES?


----------



## gonewild (Sep 19, 2012)

ehanes7612 said:


> so if i am importing artificially propogated leucochilum i need an import CITES?



Are the plants in or out of flask?


----------



## ehanes7612 (Sep 19, 2012)

gonewild said:


> Are the plants in or out of flask?



out of flask


----------



## gonewild (Sep 19, 2012)

You need a CITES permit (LICENSE).
I think it costs $200 and allow several months to get it.
If you import CITES listed plants without it can be a criminal offense.


----------



## ehanes7612 (Sep 19, 2012)

well, i may be able to have a freind who has a cites do it this one time..crossing fingers..really want these leucos but i dont want to get in trouble


----------



## gonewild (Sep 19, 2012)

You need this permit...

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/library/forms/pdf/ppqform621.pdf

It only costs $70, I guess it is the export license that is $200.


----------



## gonewild (Sep 19, 2012)

ehanes7612 said:


> well, i may be able to have a freind who has a cites do it this one time..crossing fingers..really want these leucos but i dont want to get in trouble



You must also make sure you trust the exporter to file the CITES documents correctly. If he makes an the importer is responsible. Be careful.


----------



## likespaphs (Sep 19, 2012)

did you get a level 2 permit from the usda so you can submit forms electronically?


----------



## gonewild (Sep 19, 2012)

likespaphs said:


> did you get a level 2 permit from the usda so you can submit forms electronically?



No, It is a hassle to get the e-account. After you fill out everything and they approve it then you have to go to a district USDA office and show photo id and prove to them that you are not a homeland security risk to the country.
When ever I fax in the application it comes back email in a week or less.
I guess people who use faxes are not a security risk?


----------



## ehanes7612 (Sep 19, 2012)

i decided not to go trhough with this...the CITES is too big of a hassle for such a small order


----------



## gonewild (Sep 19, 2012)

ehanes7612 said:


> i decided not to go trhough with this...the CITES is too big of a hassle for such a small order



That is exactly the result the CITES system was designed for, to discourage people.


----------



## ehanes7612 (Sep 19, 2012)

gonewild said:


> That is exactly the result the CITES system was designed for, to discourage people.



ok well, now i am seeing into the 70 dollar permit. does this take several months also? i faxed the import permit ..that was really easy


----------



## gonewild (Sep 20, 2012)

It takes about a month.


----------



## keithrs (Sep 20, 2012)

I was wondering how long are the permits good for?


----------



## gonewild (Sep 20, 2012)

The CITES is good for 2 years.
I forget how long the plant import permit is good for, probably 2 years also.


----------



## abax (Sep 21, 2012)

While we're on this subject, I saw a couple of vendors in
China on ebay selling helenae and it says they ship almost
anywhere including the U.S. and gave a time frame of about two weeks. The plants were not in flask. How do they manage that?


----------



## ehanes7612 (Sep 21, 2012)

They probably just mail it. No markings on the box.. Customs only randomly checks the thousands of packages that come through


----------



## NYEric (Sep 21, 2012)

Shhhhh. :ninja:


----------



## NYEric (Sep 21, 2012)

gonewild said:


> You need this permit...
> 
> http://www.aphis.usda.gov/library/forms/pdf/ppqform621.pdf
> 
> It only costs $70, I guess it is the export license that is $200.



When I look at this permit it is for "business", what do I need to import into the USA for my "collection"!?


----------



## gonewild (Sep 21, 2012)

NYEric said:


> When I look at this permit it is for "business", what do I need to import into the USA for my "collection"!?



You definitely need the plant import permit.

I've never been clear about the "business" clause with the CITES.
I would assume if you have ever sold or traded a plant they could(would) consider you a business.
Since they don't offer a separate license for "non commercial" CITES licenses you might assume that you don't need one.... I think that would be a mistake. More likely they don't allow non "business" personal import of CITES species.


----------



## gonewild (Sep 21, 2012)

abax said:


> While we're on this subject, I saw a couple of vendors in
> China on ebay selling helenae and it says they ship almost
> anywhere including the U.S. and gave a time frame of about two weeks. The plants were not in flask. How do they manage that?



They don't have to obey USA law.
You have to obey USA law and Chinese law.


----------



## Gcroz (Sep 21, 2012)

gonewild said:


> You definitely need the plant import permit.
> I think that would be a mistake. More likely they don't allow non "business" personal import of CITES species.





gonewild said:


> They don't have to obey USA law.
> You have to obey USA law and Chinese law.



I would agree with both of these statements. However, it would be interesting to make a suit against the PTB that we are not beholden to Chinese law while in the US, and that it is a violation of our 14th Amendment rights that end "users" are responsible for the mistakes (or crimes) of parties we have no control over.


----------



## Gcroz (Sep 21, 2012)

Gcroz said:


> I would agree with both of these statements. However, it would be interesting to make a suit against the PTB that we are not beholden to Chinese law while in the US, and that it is a violation of our 14th Amendment rights that end "users" are responsible for the mistakes (or crimes) of parties we have no control over.



And remember, I said "interesting," not that I'm encouraging lawsuits. lol. Especially ones against the Federal Powers!


----------



## gonewild (Sep 21, 2012)

Gcroz said:


> I would agree with both of these statements. However, it would be interesting to make a suit against the PTB that we are not beholden to Chinese law while in the US, and that it is a violation of our 14th Amendment rights that end "users" are responsible for the mistakes (or crimes) of parties we have no control over.



It would be interesting but the Sucpreme Court would have to make the ruling.

The problem is that when it comes to dealing in plant products we are beholden to Chinese law "indirectly". The Lacey Act makes it a crime to handle any plant product that had any foreign laws violated during the production of the material. So in reality you would not be charged with violating a foreign law but rater violating the Lacey Act which is US Law.

Our elected officials purposefully created a law that holds us responsible for actions of someone in another country and they have no interest in changing it.


----------



## Gcroz (Sep 21, 2012)

gonewild said:


> Our elected officials purposefully created a law that holds us responsible for actions of someone in another country and they have no interest in changing it.



On purpose would be correct. However, I have not heard of this being subjected to SCOTUS scrutiny, yet. It may have, but at the moment I don't have time to research it. In a generality though, barring collusion, aiding and abetting, conspiracy, etc. you cannot be held criminally liable for the actions of another. I said generally, and there are exceptions, but to my knowledge, the general body of law doesn't permit it in cases where you have no knowledge, have taken no action, and are merely an "innocent" party.

There is a lot of shadowy area in this law. unfortunately, not many orchid people have the cash on hand to bring suit all the way to SCOTUS...it's usually spent on new orchids!


----------



## NYEric (Sep 21, 2012)

If I read the APHIS form correctly it says #5-Form of business ("X" one if applying as a business) So I do not have to fill that in. 
For #5a it says "name the article(s) as well as the nature of your activities related to importing, exporting, or re-exporting plants regulated by 50 CFR 17.12 and 23.23." If the sales receipt and Inspection paperwork says simplly paph species can I put that? And for the nature of my activities do I put "growing orchids"?


----------



## gonewild (Sep 21, 2012)

Gcroz said:


> I said generally, and there are exceptions, but to my knowledge, the general body of law doesn't permit it in cases where you have no knowledge, have taken no action, and are merely an "innocent" party.



Times have changed here in the USA and the new generations are making new policy. 

I guess there are those that would argue that the Lacey Act is part of the main body of law?
The Lacey Act now requires....
....a person to have knowledge or don't do it.
....a person to be proactive and take action.
....a person not to rely on ignorance to remain innocent.

So few people are directly affected by the Lacey Act that probably never will there be enough people to change it. The big problem is that it actually affects everyone, every wooden object that enter the USA must pass paperwork through the USFW. Rubber comes fro trees and as such every product containing rubber must file Lacey paperwork. Ca you imagine the burden this has put on the USFW budget? How much does this increase our daily cost of living? (ST does not have the appropriate "smiley")


----------



## gonewild (Sep 21, 2012)

I'll give you my opinion, but don't rely on it as fact.



NYEric said:


> If I read the APHIS form correctly it says #5-Form of business ("X" one if applying as a business) So I do not have to fill that in.
> For #5a it says "name the article(s) as well as the nature of your activities related to importing, exporting, or re-exporting plants regulated by 50 CFR 17.12 and 23.23."



I would put "Private collection of plants including orchid species"

They are not asking for exact species, they want to know why you want to import the plants.



> If the sales receipt and Inspection paperwork says simply paph species can I put that? And for the nature of my activities do I put "growing orchids"?



Rather than "growing orchids" maybe put "Collecting orchid plants"?

On your license application you should not need info from a specific receipt since being granted the license assumes you will be doing the import repeated times. 
I would not accept the exporter being so vague. CITES entry require genus and species if it is known. You and the exporter both know what the species is so declare each plant correctly. If the exporting CITES authority is willing to accept only the genus then something may be wrong. If your shipment arrives without the species declared then that may be cause to seize the plants. (If I were an inspector and a shipment arrived with only "Paph species" declared I would assume you were hiding a prohibited species.)

The CITES process is actually pretty easy IF you follow all the rules and try to comply rather than looking for ways to dodge the rules.


----------



## abax (Sep 22, 2012)

I don't plan on ordering the helenae from a Chinese vendor, but the offers are there on ebay for anyone to see
and buy. There seems to be a vast sea of contradictions here. Do Europeans have the same problems or are the laws mostly American?

Now Eric, stop that shushing me. I want to know these things just in case I'm considering getting into trouble.
Not that I am, of course. On the other hand, are there any American vendors offering helenae without the
jail cell?


----------



## naoki (Sep 22, 2012)

abax said:


> I don't plan on ordering the helenae from a Chinese vendor, but the offers are there on ebay for anyone to see
> and buy. There seems to be a vast sea of contradictions here. Do Europeans have the same problems or are the laws mostly American?
> 
> Now Eric, stop that shushing me. I want to know these things just in case I'm considering getting into trouble.
> ...



The US has a tougher CITES interpretation. There are a couple species, which can be bought in Canada, and other countries, but not in the US.

Hengduang Mountains Biotech (http://hengduanbiotech.com/) can get you P. helenae ($35 flowering size). They are coming to the US in Nov, so they can bring it and ship it to you. They also have quite a few other Chinese Paphs, which were illegal in the US until recently. see http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26958 for related info.


----------



## Eric Muehlbauer (Sep 22, 2012)

Angela- the plants sold by the Chinese vendors are shipped in unmarked boxes, or sometimes mislabeled boxes. No "live plants, handle with care" written anywhere. Most orders go through, otherwise, they would have no business. The random box that gets confiscated usually only results in loss of plants (and money.) The sellers themselves say they are not responsible for confiscated plants. However, I was told by Dave Horak that some people did get in trouble for bringing in paphs from these guys....presumably they were big orders, but I don't know details. Also, if the plant is not in good shape, or dies very quickly, you do not have much in the way of recourse. Emails do not get answered. Also, if confiscated, and they do go after you, what exactly can you say, when the Ebay description clearly says "wild"?


----------



## abax (Sep 23, 2012)

IF I ordered and IF I got caught, I'd hold out my wrists for the cuffs, Eric. An orchid friend of mine in NZ did get blamed for an orchid sent from the U.S. as a gift that she
wasn't even expecting. She got Big Hassle out of the
situation and lost an American friend. The friend was well-intentioned, but clueless apparently.

naoki, November is quite late for shipping for me too. We've been promised our first frost next week and I'm
a wuss about late fall shipping to KY...veeeerrrry risky.


----------



## Ray (Sep 23, 2012)

Angela - I have successfully shipped blooming plants to Alaska in February. You just gotta know what you're doin' when you pack 'em.


----------



## naoki (Sep 23, 2012)

Ray said:


> Angela - I have successfully shipped blooming plants to Alaska in February. You just gotta know what you're doin' when you pack 'em.



Wow, I didn't know that's possible! I would be still a little scared though. In Feb, it could be -40F. I would think even well insulated package could be in trouble if the delivery person forget to close the truck window while she/he goes for lunch.

Angela, they are coming to the US again next Aug (and Feb). That's the time I'm going to get some stuff from them.


----------



## abax (Sep 24, 2012)

August sounds like my kind of shipping time. Thank you,
naoki.

Yeah Ray, you know what you're doin', but do the Chinese vendors know what they're doin'? I know you. I
don't know them. There's a trust factor involved. Also
living in the woods has some drawbacks and slow mail delivery is one of them...ditto FedEx and UPS.


----------



## Ray (Sep 24, 2012)

Naoki - the key is a combination of 3 things: insulation, heat packs, and next-day delivery. Not cheap, but if you "gotta have it..."


----------



## ehanes7612 (Oct 25, 2012)

well, i finally got my Permit..and on it it says that CITES has to accompany shipment (which would have to be from the shipper's end)..i also talked to a a US customer who received plants from this person in Thailand and he said he had no problems with just having a plant permit from his end..so... i just ordered 12 leucochilum and they are on their way..weather looks nice on my end for the next ten days


----------



## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Oct 25, 2012)

Good for you Ed. I'm sure that all will go well.


----------



## naoki (Oct 26, 2012)

So Ed, to summarize, do you need the Import Permit and $70 CITES import permit to import out-of-flask CITES app. 1 plants? Then the exporter will provide the CITES export permit + Phytosanitary certificate, right?


----------



## ehanes7612 (Oct 26, 2012)

naoki said:


> So Ed, to summarize, do you need the Import Permit and $70 CITES import permit to import out-of-flask CITES app. 1 plants? Then the exporter will provide the CITES export permit + Phytosanitary certificate, right?



i have no idea..i am taking a risk here .. depends on what the USDA officer decides to do as they are the final say (according o my plant import documents)..i did not get a cites import


----------



## naoki (Oct 26, 2012)

I hope that you'll get them! I was trying to get some info about this procedure, too, and this has been pretty confusing. A couple of web sites do not mention the requirement of CITES import permit (for non-commercial). All we need is free APHIS import permit. But they are usually talking about App. 2 plants and App. 1 exempt (flask), and they don't mention about App.1 plants.


----------



## gonewild (Oct 26, 2012)

Appendix 1 species do not need a CITES import permit ONLY IF the plants are artificially propagated. The exporter must have a CITES export certificate that identifies and certifys that the plants are artificially propagated.

If the exporter fails to properly fill out the CITES export permit when they send the plants you as the importer are liable and can be charged with a CITES violation. 

Importing flasks (invitro) is the easiest way to move CITES plants because it is obvious and without question that they are artificially propagated. When you import plants not in flask it is not so obvious so the inspector must look closely at the plants and the CITES certificate to decide if everything is correct. (Some exporters forge documents). It is at this point that the inspector must validate the CITES export certificate and has the authority to question whether the plants are artificially propagated. If they suspect something is not correct they can seize the plants and charge a violation.


----------



## naoki (Oct 26, 2012)

Thank you for clarifying this, Lance. So as long as plants are artificially propagated with valid CITES export documents (and phytosanitary cert.), we can import them regardless of appendix 1 vs 2 or in flask or out of flask. All we need is the free import permit. So the difference between imporataion of App. 2 and App. 1 is that wild-collected App.2 can be imported with proper docs, but App. 1 is limited to artificially propagated ones. OK, that sounds simple enough.


----------



## ehanes7612 (Oct 26, 2012)

gonewild said:


> Appendix 1 species do not need a CITES import permit ONLY IF the plants are artificially propagated. The exporter must have a CITES export certificate that identifies and certifys that the plants are artificially propagated.
> 
> If the exporter fails to properly fill out the CITES export permit when they send the plants you as the importer are liable and can be charged with a CITES violation.
> 
> Importing flasks (invitro) is the easiest way to move CITES plants because it is obvious and without question that they are artificially propagated. When you import plants not in flask it is not so obvious so the inspector must look closely at the plants and the CITES certificate to decide if everything is correct. (Some exporters forge documents). It is at this point that the inspector must validate the CITES export certificate and has the authority to question whether the plants are artificially propagated. If they suspect something is not correct they can seize the plants and charge a violation.



I suspect that if they see 12 leucochilums, all the same size and no obvious marks due to collecting damage..i will be ok


----------



## gonewild (Oct 26, 2012)

naoki said:


> Thank you for clarifying this, Lance. So as long as plants are artificially propagated with valid CITES export documents (and phytosanitary cert.), we can import them regardless of appendix 1 vs 2 or in flask or out of flask. All we need is the free import permit. So the difference between imporataion of App. 2 and App. 1 is that wild-collected App.2 can be imported with proper docs, but App. 1 is limited to artificially propagated ones. OK, that sounds simple enough.



Probably a good idea to avoid wild collected plants completely. Although the USDA rules seem to allow the entry of wild plant material I don't know if any countries actually allow the export of wild plants. (repeat....I do not know).
Years ago the rules stated that plants had to be "nursery grown", but I don't read that now in the CFRs.
And to clarify this is in reference to "orchid plants". There are other restrictions on other types of plants.


----------



## gonewild (Oct 26, 2012)

ehanes7612 said:


> I suspect that if they see 12 leucochilums, all the same size and no obvious marks due to collecting damage..i will be ok



You should be OK if the CITES export certificate says they are artificially propagated. The inspectors put faith in the exporting authority, unless they suspect some type of corruption from that authority.

Be excited not worried!


----------



## ehanes7612 (Oct 26, 2012)

gonewild said:


> You should be OK if the CITES export certificate says they are artificially propagated. The inspectors put faith in the exporting authority, unless they suspect some type of corruption from that authority.
> 
> Be excited not worried!



YEP!!


----------



## gonewild (Oct 26, 2012)

But ask your neighbor to please pick up the box from the post office!
:rollhappy:


----------



## NYEric (Oct 28, 2012)

Or have it addressed to the neighbor!


----------



## gonewild (Oct 28, 2012)

NYEric said:


> Or have it addressed to the neighbor!



AHh...That's why you add that line to your delivery address. :wink:


----------



## NYEric (Oct 28, 2012)

_"He sees you when you're sleeping.
He know when you're awake. 
He knows when you've been bad or good..." _:ninja:


----------



## ehanes7612 (Nov 8, 2012)

soooo, it took a couple weeks for the exporter to get his paperwork, the plants are to go out Monday..i callled the USDA and asked them if i could pick up the plants .and they said " well, you could but all we do is check for pests and (if no pests), immediately ship out to post office, and we dont notify anyone"


----------



## NYEric (Nov 9, 2012)




----------



## likespaphs (Nov 19, 2012)

stumbled upon this book
don't know anything more about it than the description...
http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/distributed/C/bo9854911.html


----------



## NYEric (Nov 20, 2012)

Wow! $30!! I guess you can make money in orchids! I wonder how many of the authors are on the _"List"_!?


----------

