# Paph Stealth 'Big Guns'



## paphioland (Sep 18, 2009)




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## NYEric (Sep 18, 2009)

Nice, nice color. Where do you live? :evil:


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## McPaph (Sep 18, 2009)

Man thats dark. Very cool.

Mick


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## John M (Sep 18, 2009)

Love the Paph! Not crazy about the background!


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## biothanasis (Sep 18, 2009)

WOW!! Veeeeeery dark!!!!


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## SlipperKing (Sep 18, 2009)

Oooh that is super dark! What's the cross? Is the second bud OK?
It's one of the Blue Men!


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## Hera (Sep 18, 2009)

What an interesting bloom. What is the cross?


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## callosum (Sep 18, 2009)

a dark paph once


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## tim (Sep 18, 2009)

what's the cross? look it up at: http://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/registerpages/orchidsearch.asp

it's roth x Hsinying Maru (according to the registrant...)


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## likespaphs (Sep 18, 2009)

dang...
that looks huge!


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## Scott Ware (Sep 18, 2009)

tim said:


> what's the cross? look it up at: http://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/registerpages/orchidsearch.asp
> 
> it's roth x Hsinying Maru *(according to the registrant...)*



Alright, Tim. You hung the bait out there so I'll take it. 

I don't believe I've seen you add that qualifier in the past so one assumes you may have something to share in this case. Is the accurate registration of this hybrid in doubt in your mind?


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## tim (Sep 18, 2009)

not in my mind but in the minds of some. i'm sure my mind's not qualified to make itself up on this one...


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## paphioland (Sep 18, 2009)

I am not sure Tim but I think you might be confusing another registration. I am not even sure I understand this cryptic conversation but I think I do.


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## Scott Ware (Sep 18, 2009)

Well, that has my mind wondering (and wandering - _even more than usual_). Gotta love a good orchid mystery!


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## paphioland (Sep 18, 2009)

this is truly 
hsying maru x roth


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## aquacorps (Sep 18, 2009)

Scott & Tim, If there is a problem with a registration, please share. You do have a duty to God, country and the AOS. (Rick Barry is channeling thru me). rusty


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## Scott Ware (Sep 18, 2009)

Well, no - I don't have anything to share, but it just intrigued me when I read Tim's post. 

Registration mistakes seldom get corrected, and for anyone unknowingly using misregistered plants as breeding stock it can take them down an unfortunate detour in their breeding program if they're really trying to accomplish something. _(Ever try to remake Paph. Ernest Read and have it look ANYTHING like the clone that has been awarded under so many different cultivar names? I did - what a joke.  )_

After I posted, I noticed that Ken's follow-up post indicates that he is quite sure that this particular flower is an accurate representative of the hybrid as registered, so I guess there's not much of a mystery after all.


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## tim (Sep 18, 2009)

ok ok my mistake-y. 

I was told Stealth is the correct grex, and Krull's Black Shadow is the same grex re-registered with a wrong parent so that the grex name could be different. If that's true it's pretty naughty. But who knows...way past my pay grade I think.

I saw so many of these at the Zone last week - so beautiful and soooo dark!! I like the pix of L'Etacq and Gaulois on the RHS awards CD too. I wonder how many of the clones of these grexes of roth x something other than a multi actually turn out to be worthwhile...


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## Scott Ware (Sep 18, 2009)

tim said:


> ok ok my mistake-y.
> 
> I was told Stealth is the correct grex, and Krull's Black Shadow is the same grex re-registered with a wrong parent so that the grex name could be different. If that's true it's pretty naughty. But who knows...way past my pay grade I think.
> 
> I saw so many of these at the Zone last week - so beautiful and soooo dark!! I like the pix of L'Etacq and Gaulois on the RHS awards CD too. I wonder how many of the clones of these grexes of roth x something other than a multi actually turn out to be worthwhile...




That's an interesting theory - but I wouldn't really know how to go about verifying it. The photo of Paph. Krull's Black Shadow 'Crystelle', FCC/AOS on Greg Allikas' site at http://www.orchidworks.com shows a flower with much differently-shaped dorsal and petals, but with VERY similar coloration and pouch shape. 

I have bloomed maybe 5 or 6 different (vini mottled leaf x roth) type hybrids in the last few years and they all seem to share so many characteristics I would be hard-pressed to tell them apart. The plants I bloomed from this type of breeding exhibited a tremendous amount of crippling and deformation. If the flowers weren't crippled they would often bloom asymmetrical in shape at best and I never ended up keeping any of them. 

As to how many of these crosses turn out to be worthwhile - well - not many of the ones I bloomed did I ever want to see again! I suppose you have to bloom a lot of crippled dogs to get to the really nice ones such as the one Ken showed us at the beginning of this thread.


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## aquacorps (Sep 18, 2009)

Tim, That is very interesting! Has anyone ever seen other cultivars of Krull's Black Shadow?


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## Candace (Sep 18, 2009)

Ken, take it to judging you may get 69 pts.oke:


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## paphioland (Sep 18, 2009)

tim said:


> ok ok my mistake-y.
> 
> I was told Stealth is the correct grex, and Krull's Black Shadow is the same grex re-registered with a wrong parent so that the grex name could be different. If that's true it's pretty naughty. But who knows...way past my pay grade I think.
> 
> I saw so many of these at the Zone last week - so beautiful and soooo dark!! I like the pix of L'Etacq and Gaulois on the RHS awards CD too. I wonder how many of the clones of these grexes of roth x something other than a multi actually turn out to be worthwhile...



l I did get what you were saying. Now you are barking up the right grex. LOL


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## paphioland (Sep 18, 2009)

Candace said:


> Ken, take it to judging you may get 69 pts.oke:



Wouldn't surprise me one bit Candace. I am saying that with a smile on my face lol. I don't take plants to judging for now.

Norito was out here he saw it and thought it might be award quality. I was talking to a judge who also saw it and she commented on the slight crippling of the petals. Funny because I was just about to comment on how little crippling there is for a cross like this. She also said on a larger plant I might get more flowers and would be better. I said, "I hope not because then the blooming will be horrible because the third flower will most certainly be truly crippled". What can you do lol. This flower is very flat from a side profile and large not to mention the color. I like it. I like this cross.


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## tim (Sep 18, 2009)

i like it - it's pretty damn good for its type...look up the fcc to roth x alma gaevart to see some "standards" for this type of breeding. plus it blows "krull's black shadow" out of the water and is pretty comparable to the best Stealths I've seen. I'd give it a high award for sure!

Ken I know yer bitter with the AOS, but you should take it in!! these good ones need to be on the record to avoid continuing to award gar--bage. That stupid "bring it back when it's bigger" is such a stock answer. I think it was said best that very few judges are excited to see something new and interesting and award it. I guarantee none of them have anything like this and probably very few of them have ever seen one like this... This problem is fixed by taking things in and EDUCATING them


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## paphioland (Sep 18, 2009)

I agree with you Tim. The paph knowledge in my area is seriously lacking though. Also I don't live near a judging center. A low award possibly devalues the plant and a high award I have to pay for. Regardless I rely on my "eye" to hybridize. On top of everything I might possibly having a mini temper tantrum lol. I already let a judge in my area look at it. Look at the comments she made. It shows her total lack of knowledge concerning this type of hybridizing. If it was easy or someone I knew wanted to take it I would let them. Like the Gloria Naugle. I am too busy at the moment with work, social life and hobbies. I might show stuff some day when I have more time.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Sep 18, 2009)

Whatever it is, it sure looks good from over here!


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## tim (Sep 18, 2009)

out of interest, from your "hybridizer's eye", what would you do with this? back cross to a vini? I'm having the same problem with Paph. New Direction - what's next? back cross to a vini or cross to a dark complex? I can't see crossing Stealth with a roth...just curious  Do you have a sib? Maybe ask Terry for pollen? It might be nice to get a consistent batch of this weird type of hybrid, since "f1"s are so variable...


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## paphioland (Sep 18, 2009)

tim said:


> out of interest, from your "hybridizer's eye", what would you do with this? back cross to a vini? I'm having the same problem with Paph. New Direction - what's next? back cross to a vini or cross to a dark complex? I can't see crossing Stealth with a roth...just curious  Do you have a sib? Maybe ask Terry for pollen? It might be nice to get a consistent batch of this weird type of hybrid, since "f1"s are so variable...



I thought about this. First I don't know how fertile this cross is. Roth might take but it will decrease the size of the flower but may improve the form. I already have pollen of another very good stealth maybe better since I got a few select ones a while back. I think this would be a good cross to lock in the size and good form. A brachy would be interesting but I dont think it would take fertility wise but you never know. I did make some crosses with low yield last year.


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## tim (Sep 18, 2009)

omg a brachy would be a disaster...brachy x maudiae = color breaks and brachy x multi takes forever...but the very best would be spectacular!! Can you imagine a vini Crystelle? interesting answer...I'd sib I think...


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## SlipperFan (Sep 18, 2009)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> Whatever it is, it sure looks good from over here!



I'm with you! I'm thinking that is about the darkest Paph I've ever seen, almost as black as Fred Clarke's After Dark.


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## paphioland (Sep 18, 2009)

I actually already sibbed this cross, crossed with roth 'Dazzler' and a wayne booth 'Black Magic' last year. I think I got no seed or little. I dont remember what happened with the pods. Would have to check. Didn't try a brachy because didn't think it would take.


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## Wendy (Sep 19, 2009)

I think that is spectacular! Send it here for judging....we have some pretty good Paph judges at our centre. :clap::clap::clap:


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