# Sphagnum ?



## VAAlbert (Jul 5, 2010)

*Hi there:

Is anyone having luck growing Paphs and Phrags in PURE sphagnum? 

I have read ups and downs. I have some plants growing in pure sphag that seem to like it it; just pulled a couple out of their pots and saw lots of roots with nice growing root tips.

I can't say for sure whether this sphagnum is the 'sheet moss' variety that is easy to find in garden centers, or New Zealand shphagnum.

Of course, I know that Paphs and Phrags can rot in any medium, and that they can thrive in so many -- so please just answer about sphagnum!!!!  

Best wishes,

Vic Albert.*


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## Shiva (Jul 5, 2010)

Sphagnum is a good growing media for many orchids, but when it gets dry, il's very hard to wet again. Personnally, I like it better mixed with bark and sponge rock.


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## VAAlbert (Jul 5, 2010)

*Thanks for your reply!! -- my limited experience with the slippers in pure sphagnum is the same, but that if you don't let them dry completely, this problem doesn't arise.

Any more thoughts out there?

Vic.*


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## Candace (Jul 5, 2010)

My phrags are all growing in NZ spag. moss only.


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## VAAlbert (Jul 5, 2010)

Great to hear, Candace!

Anybody with Paph experience, -- only sphagnum??

V.


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## goldenrose (Jul 5, 2010)

Vic, you don't mention what types of paphs you grow. I could see where the barbata types might do well. I have reservations, it's that at what point does it sour & needs changing.


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## VAAlbert (Jul 5, 2010)

The ones that I have now that are rooting nicely when you plop the whole kit and caboodle out of the pot for a second are Paph. armeniacum and Paph. micranthum. My Barbatas aren't rooting nearly as well in their bark mix. I can certainly see that degredation of sphagnum would be bad keeping them a long time this way, but my thinking had been at least yearly repottings. I'd like to have one substrate for everything, incl. Phrags, to avoid trouble. 

Best again,

V.


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## swamprad (Jul 5, 2010)

Following Candace's example, I have most of my phrags in sphagnum, and they are very happy. I have read on this forum that sphagnum does not do well for paphs, because of the effect it has on the pH. The exception is Paph. delenatii, which likes some sphag in the mix.


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## VAAlbert (Jul 5, 2010)

Well, the Paph armeniacums and Paph micranthums are putting out new roots like gangbusters -- these aren't "supposed to be" sphag lovers like delenatii. So, I'm wondering about the generality of sphagnum as a good root promoter in ADULT plants, so long as the moss hasn't decayed too much!


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## goldenrose (Jul 5, 2010)

Are your parvis in a basket versus a solid pot? I could see them doing quite well in sphag.


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## VAAlbert (Jul 5, 2010)

Nope, they are in regular plastic pots! I've tried a Paph druryi and a Phrag lindleyanum too, but too early to tell about their root growth.

Keep on sending infor and opinions!

Vic.


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## VAAlbert (Jul 5, 2010)

Anybody got a good supplier of quality NZ sphagnum in the US?


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Jul 5, 2010)

I have a bunch of young seedlings growing in straight NZ sphagum moss. There are roths. a couple of brachy and a few parvies. All seems well but I won't leave them in that forever. I'm talking about plants that were doing poorly and young. These are all in 2" pots and many of them have 2,3 or even 4 plants in each. I pulled one today that the tag read 4 little ones all with no roots. Two survived and grew new roots and two are now dead and sent to orchid heaven.


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## VAAlbert (Jul 5, 2010)

Hi Bob:

OK, so why the switch after youth? Bad experiences, evil stories heard, or bad vibes?

Thanks,

Vic.


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Jul 5, 2010)

I just know that ones that have a good root system and can each stay in there own 2" pot that I need not worry about keeping the spagnum from drying out. That way I can just water them all on my normal watering schedule. When I was away in May for 3 weeks I leave it to my neighbor to water my plants. There is no way that she does it properly. Upon coming home only 2 days after she waters the spagnum was bone dry. That tells me she just waters the whole greenhouse quickly. This Sept. when I leave for 3 weeks I'm taking my compots with me. Come to think of it, even the phals in 4" pots with spagnum were dry. But being grown ups, they can take the abuse for a few weeks.


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## smartie2000 (Jul 5, 2010)

phrags do well in sphag


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## Candace (Jul 5, 2010)

VAAlbert said:


> Anybody got a good supplier of quality NZ sphagnum in the US?




CalWest Tropical Supply


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## paphioboy (Jul 6, 2010)

I am now growing several paphs in NZ sphagnum + polystyrene on a very small scale (windowsill growing).  That's because I bought a whole bag of sphagnum for repotting and I have no experience with bark media. The paphs (rescued liemianum, Dellaina and delenatii x Gold Dollar) are now very happy, growing new leaves and roots. They are grown in regular polystyrene drinking cups with many holes poked through (because I'm a cheapskate )... Also have bifrenaria tyrianthina and a Brazilian miltonia hybrid growing in the same fashion...


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## NYEric (Jul 6, 2010)

I have some in pure sphag. spicerianum, sangii, and a few hybrids. I keep them moist and warm and they seem to be doing OK.


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## Jorch (Jul 6, 2010)

I have some multiflorals in pure sphag.. like dianthum, anitum, stonei, and hybrids like Harold Koopowitz and others... they seem to like it as much as a bark mix in my conditions.


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## goldenrose (Jul 8, 2010)

Nothing has been mentioned about one's watering schedule in the fall when the temps need to drop on some of these species. Cold + wet sphag = disaster to me, here's where I'd feel more comfortable with a bark mix. Or .... is it OK to let the sphag go bone dry at this time?


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## NYEric (Jul 8, 2010)

IDK, my apt never gets that cool!


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## Mrs. Paph (Jul 8, 2010)

Like a previous post mentioned, I start out very small seedlings that look ready for pudding cups (with holes melted in bottom with soldering iron, I'm also cheap  ) or 2.25" pots with varying amounts of NZ sphag in them. Not that I can claim to have grown many plants from this stage yet, but for just out of compot Paphs I put them in pudding cup pots with maybe half and half NZ sphag:CHC with some charcoal sprinkled in. When they get potted up to a 2.25" pot in 6 months to a year I lower the sphag to maybe a quarter of the media, and then after a year there, if they haven't outgrown the pot, I repot them into a new 2.25" pot with out sphag. Pots larger than that get no sphag and some smaller aggregate chunks (LECA of some sort), larger still get larger CHC and larger LECA...you get the idea. The reasoning I have behind this is that smaller seedlings seem to benefit from a little bit higher and more even moisture level, and smaller pots dry out faster as well. By potting up each plant in my still-too-small collection by grabbing a handful of this and a handful of that to customize things, I feel like it gives me more predictable drying times. The other upside to using the sphag only in the smaller pots is that seedlings are (hopefully) growing faster and in need of potting up more frequently, so I don't have to worry about the 'when is the mix sour and in need of change' issue. I've also found that sphag in larger pots leads to more algae - probably also a function of more mature plants growing in higher light and staying wet longer in larger pots - since I grow everything in clear plastic. The clear allows me to see the happy new roots weaving in and around the sphag, so it's worth a little algae to me! I know I talked about more than just sphag, but I didn't think I could paint the picture without it!


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## bigleaf (Jul 8, 2010)

In 2006 I bought a few paph seedlings from Krull-Smith. I was surprised to find them in moss. They were in 2.25 inch pot, excellent root. These are mostly multiflora roth hybrids.
After reading this thread, I am going to repot my phrag into NZ moss tomorrow. I don't water it daily and it's not doing as well in a bark mix.


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## VAAlbert (Jul 9, 2010)

Thanks, everyone --

I'm going to try other species (adults!) than armeniacum, micranthum, druryi, and Phrags in pure NZ sphagnum... Just looked again at a micranthum division, and it has beautifullay growing roots. Will update.

Best wishes,

Vic.


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## Rick (Jul 9, 2010)

It may be worth keeping track of drain water pH. If it gets much below 5 then you will probably end up with long term deficiencies. Many of the present successes with sphag may be due to pH compensation for relatively high pH irrigation water.

There have been some postings of outrageously good armeniacums in baskets, (maybe moss lined), but in one of the best cases there was regular addition of lime.

The species of the Barbata group (like NYErics sangii) are more inclined to like lower pH/ mossy environments anyway and may be the more obvious candidates.

Before changing everything consider the hardness and pH of your irrigation water.


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## NYEric (Jul 9, 2010)

Mrs. Paph said:


> By potting up each plant in my _*still-too-small *_collection..


Buy more plants! oke: 



Mrs. Paph said:


> by grabbing a handful of this and a handful of that to customize things, I feel like it gives me more predictable drying times.


This is a good procedure.


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## jewel (Jul 10, 2010)

i get my sphagnum form Lowes home improvement, the brand is Better-Gro and it is labeled as orchid moss and is composed of 100% long fibre blonde sphagnum moss from Chile. all of my orchids are grown in this. i use clay pots and water by hand. when i water i use my hand to seal the drain whole and allow the water to completely fill the container then drain and repeat to remove salt build up since the water is very hard here. since i started growing my orchids this way they have flourishe and bloomed with more and better flowers.


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## paphioboy (Jul 11, 2010)

I water my plants in sphag once a week in spring/summer and only when the moss starts to dry out in winter (which is about every 2 weeks)... Does it help that I water with hard water..? Adelaide municipal water has a lot of dissolved stuff in it.. will this prevent the sphagnum breaking down and becoming more acidic..?


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## Rick (Jul 11, 2010)

paphioboy said:


> I water my plants in sphag once a week in spring/summer and only when the moss starts to dry out in winter (which is about every 2 weeks)... Does it help that I water with hard water..? Adelaide municipal water has a lot of dissolved stuff in it.. will this prevent the sphagnum breaking down and becoming more acidic..?



Don't know if it slows down the breakdown rate, but it will definitely offset the acidity.


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## Leo Schordje (Jul 12, 2010)

Albert, 
I use pure sphagnum (usually Chilean) for only a small handful of Paphs myself. I water with Chicago tap water, 225 ppm total disolved solids. Paph purpuratum and Paph purpurescens (sensu Fowlie) which is sunk into Paph virens without explaination by Cribb. Both of these plants have been in moss for over 20 years. 

There is a grower in the Chicago area that grows 100% of her orchids in NZ or Chilean sphagnum. Paph rothschildianum, bellatum, lowii, druyii, armeniacum & mastersianum are some of the plants she has bloomed and I have personally seen in bloom over the last 25 years. You absolutely can grow all Paph species in nothing but sphagnum. I have seen it done.

A couple tricks she has shared;
*Key, wet the moss before you repot the plants. The old moss is easier to get off the roots if it is wet, the new moss must also be wet. 
*Also very important is that you pot the plants loose. DO NOT PACK the moss in tight. Particularly for the paphs, keep the moss loose so that it will breath easily. Packing the moss too tightly is the reason many people fail over the long run growing in sphagnum. By loose I mean when her plants are freshly repotted often the plant is still wobbly, she will even add a few bamboo skewers to hold the plant up until the new roots prop the plant up better. 
*Each plant will have a very different watering schedule versus what its schedule is when in bark. She lets her Paphs get fairly close to dry, her Phrags she waters twice as often as the Paphs, keeping them much wetter. 

Generally plants in sphagnum will go much longer than similar plants in a bark mix in the same location. That is the reason she went with sphagnum. She likes to take week long trips and does not want to have to have people coming in to water her plants. It has worked well for her over the last 25 years. 

So give it a try, it can be done. The key is to observe your technique and see how the plants respond. If they seem to rot, repot them into fresh moss and experiment with keeping the moss looser in the pot.

Go for it
Leo


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## jewel (Jul 13, 2010)

paphioboy said:


> I water my plants in sphag once a week in spring/summer and only when the moss starts to dry out in winter (which is about every 2 weeks)... Does it help that I water with hard water..? Adelaide municipal water has a lot of dissolved stuff in it.. will this prevent the sphagnum breaking down and becoming more acidic..?



actually, i believe that hard water cause the sphagnum to break down faster. if you watered with rain, reverse osmosis, or distilled water the sphagnum would last for quite a while and new moss might start growing.


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## paphioboy (Jul 13, 2010)

Ok. Thanks jewel..


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## Jim Toomey (Jul 13, 2010)

Leo,
Does she use any lime or chicken grit to balance the PH?
Thanks,
Jim


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## Leo Schordje (Jul 14, 2010)

Jim Toomey said:


> Leo,
> Does she use any lime or chicken grit to balance the PH?
> Thanks,
> Jim



As of the last time I checked, a few years ago, she does not. HOWEVER, she does use city water, which is buffered alkaline to stop leaching lead into the drinking water and she uses Green Care's MSU formula Orchid Special. This fertilizer does have all the calcium and magnesium the plants need. Sphagnum works well for her.


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## Mrs. Paph (Jul 14, 2010)

I know Paphs aren't Phals, but there was an article in the AOS magazine recently about growing Phals in all sphag, and the way they described it, they blamed many people's trouble with tightly packed sphag medium on them trying to keep the rest of the culture too much like it should be for bark grown plants...This is a quote from the article: "It's important to leave no air spaces in the root area, so don't be afraid to pack the moss tight. Although we may think that plants with their roots packed this tight would receive no aeration, this theory has been scientifically proven to be incorrect. Even when tight, the moss has plenty of air space." Another section talked about how the sphag dries from the bottom up (opposite of bark) and that that's what prevents rotting. So I don't know, it intrigued me enough to try packing a tiny piece of a sphag'n bag Paph tightly into its tiny pot, topped with limestone pellets. Not a good experiment whether it lives or dies, since it wasn't healthy to begin with, but I figure I've already morned the probable loss of the plant anyway, so it can't hurt! Maybe someone with 'too many' plants should read the article and give it a shot with some healthy ones. If anyone else is curious, it was Orchids, Vol. 79 No. 5 May 2010...


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## goldenrose (Jul 16, 2010)

Thank You! I can remembering reading an article further back (I think it was highlighting a grower) that packed tight. Tight doesn't work for me. This spring I repotted a couple of phals looser & in clay, they seem to be doing much better & respiking already!


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## Bulldog's Baby! (Jul 16, 2010)

Commercially we will put our Paphs. into Sphagnum if going to a show/travelling overseas for moisture. If we have shipped stock in, or have a sick plant (yes, we get them :rollhappy we will put them in Sphagnum for about 6 months to promote the root growth which 9 times out of 10 works and they put out good new good healthy roots. We do then, however, put back into our bark mix after about 6 months. This is mainly because commercially we can't afford to have the whole nursery in moss! And also, if we had a few kept in moss, they would dry out quicker than those in the bark mix and then that would cause root trouble again!
I'd say keep going with your moss, just keep an eye on it, and maybe after about 10-12 months, re-pot into fresh moss just to make sure all is OK??


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## Rick (Jul 17, 2010)

jewel said:


> actually, i believe that hard water cause the sphagnum to break down faster. if you watered with rain, reverse osmosis, or distilled water the sphagnum would last for quite a while and new moss might start growing.



But if you primarily use these very soft waters then pH will drop well below 5 and make most nutrients unavailable or even toxic.

An old Orchids article on the use of lime or some other calcereous substrates in a bark mixture using a Maude type hybrid showed some pretty poor growth in the un-buffered, lowest pH matrix. Bob Wellenstien's e-library on ladyslipper.com also has a good article on nutrient bio availability and pH.

There are definitely a handful of slipper species that thrive in very low pH environments but most prefer the 5.5 and up range, which requires a bit of buffer regardless of the type of substrate used.


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## Scooby5757 (Jul 17, 2010)

I had a couple phrag seedings that got knocked over and went maybe a month or more with no water. (Hey, I just didn't notice) They were one step from the garbage heap. I took them to the other greenhouse and tucked them in the large tray of live sphagnum with all carnivorous plants about four months ago. 

They have become turgid again, new roots, and new leaves. :clap: I won't have to leave them in there for too much longer it seems. So I've had good results when the plants are small and have little root, the sphag help provide that 50/50 ratio of air and water they like around the roots.


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## Jim Toomey (Jul 17, 2010)

Rick,
Do you think that a MSU fertilizer would buffer enough to compensate for the acidic nature of the sphagnum moss? It seems to have ample calcium and magnesium.


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## Rick (Jul 17, 2010)

Jim Toomey said:


> Rick,
> Do you think that a MSU fertilizer would buffer enough to compensate for the acidic nature of the sphagnum moss? It seems to have ample calcium and magnesium.



MSU don't seem to have much in the way of carbonates or bicarbonates, which is what buffers aqueous solutions.

I used to just about solely use straight RO water for both fertilizer makeup and between fertilizer misting and irrigation water. For the past several months now, I've been using my well water thinned down to 5-10% (its very hard'n crusty) with RO water and getting very good growth out of mounted and moss/basket combinations of phals and bulbos. At this rate I have a hardness down in the 25-50ppm range with similar alkalinity, and sphagnum potted plants seem to be growing much better than before.

Most of the other really good growers in our society, like Ed M use the Nashville tap water for both regular irrigation and fertilizer make up. The hardness of Nashville tap is 90-100 ppm, alkalinity of about 60 ppm and conductivity of 180.

So I wouldn't rely on MSU fert alone for pH buffer without adding some source of bicarbonate to offset acid substrates.


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## Rick (Jul 17, 2010)

In real soil/bog conditions the bacteria will often alter pH and alkalinity conditions.

Typically under aerobic conditions many bacteria in the process of metabolizing will acidify conditions, while under anaerobic conditions many bacteria actually release alkalinity and cause the pH to go up. It's hard to predict in pot conditions what the bacterial community will end up as and how they may effect pot conditions, but ultimately they will be the driving factor as substrates age.


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## Jim Toomey (Jul 17, 2010)

oK,
So to buffer the media, what are the favorite materials?


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## Rick (Jul 17, 2010)

Jim Toomey said:


> oK,
> So to buffer the media, what are the favorite materials?




Oyster shell and lime are pretty standard. Bone meal is also supporting, and adds more phosphate. These are all solids that can be used as a top dress.


What is the quality of your tap water? You can usually get a report from your municipality if you are on city water.


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## Jim Toomey (Jul 17, 2010)

I had my water tested in a lab and sent the results to the Blackmore co. Dr. Bill Argo emailed back and he suggested the MSU 15-4-17 South Florida Special formula based on my lab results.
The Magnesium was low.
He said alternatively I could use the MSU Well Water formula but that I would need to add Epsom salts every 2 to 4 weeks.
So I feel pretty confident that the water/fertilizer matches up well.
I've been using chicken grit mixed in with some of my paphs and phrags and some bulbos. I'm not sure about how much they are buffering, the crushed shell is so hard...

What form of lime do you use?
Where do you get it?
I was also thinking of using the crushed limestone they use for aquariums, the
pellets are pretty uniform in size.

Thanks again,
Jim


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## Rick (Jul 18, 2010)

Jim Toomey said:


> I had my water tested in a lab and sent the results to the Blackmore co. Dr. Bill Argo emailed back and he suggested the MSU 15-4-17 South Florida Special formula based on my lab results.
> The Magnesium was low.
> He said alternatively I could use the MSU Well Water formula but that I would need to add Epsom salts every 2 to 4 weeks.
> So I feel pretty confident that the water/fertilizer matches up well.
> ...



If you are in Florida your water is pretty hard and buffered already (especially if your analysts are suggesting the use of the well water formula). So aside from the occasional recommended use of MgSO4 I don't think you really need to add any more lime based top dresses to your mixes.


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## VAAlbert (Aug 29, 2010)

I do foliar feeding, so pH is less of an issue.

Also, as an update, I'm starting to get great root growth on several species...


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## VAAlbert (Sep 5, 2010)

Any more views on sphagnum out there? Thnks to all of those who chimed in.

Vic>


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## VAAlbert (Sep 6, 2010)

UPDATE on sphagnum:

I just checked some Paph callosum, niveum, acmodontum, and delenatii, and all are going gangbusters with new roots.


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## Bolero (Sep 8, 2010)

I think it always depends on your growing conditions. Any medium is fine depending on your local conditions. Sphag could work but no way would it work for me. I only use it for Pleuro's.


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## goldenrose (Sep 9, 2010)

I've been leary in the past, results were not good with sphag, then came the suggestion - it should be loosely packed in the pot. It's made quite the difference, I think. I started with phals & psychopsis, have put a couple of phrags in it & most of my laelias are in it, so far so good!


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## Paphman910 (Sep 9, 2010)

Sphagnum moss is great for orchids and it will promote root growth. If you are having trouble with moss being too compact...why not add styrofoam peanuts to the mix to prevent compaction as the moss ages. My paph mix consist of coconut husk and sphagnum moss with spongerock or pumice stone added and they grow really well!

Paphman910


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## Jim Toomey (Jun 17, 2011)

Hi guys,
Been awhile since anyone updated this thread.
How are your plants doing in sphagnum?
Thoughts, comments, recommendations?
Thanks,
JT


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## Rick (Jun 18, 2011)

Jim Toomey said:


> Hi guys,
> Been awhile since anyone updated this thread.
> How are your plants doing in sphagnum?
> Thoughts, comments, recommendations?
> ...



Well I know you've been following the sphag basket system thread I started this winter.

There were a few things I potted (or had potted) in moss, but in standard clay, plastic or aircone pots. Side by side with the baskets, they did not do as well. A few in aircones got a lot of additional holes drilled into the pots, and now I'm seeing new growth.

So far I think its still pretty important for the system to breath a lot, and I think the sand is helping to keep the moss from breaking down too fast.


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## Jim Toomey (Jun 18, 2011)

Hi Rick,
I've got a ton of seedlings in 3-1 bark to perlite.
They are doing OK, but I really expected better growth.
I am thinking about trying the seedlings in sphagnum to see if
I get better growth.
Not sure if I should use straight sphagnum or mix in other
inorganics.
Your thoughts?
Thanks!


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## Rick (Jun 18, 2011)

I've gone from sphagnum to mixes of bark/sphag to straight bark (or chc mixes) and now going to primarily sphagnum again ( or more likely sphagnum with some sand). I like to use those plastic berry containers with lots of slots in them.

I used to have a lot of seedlings do great for the first year, and then stop (and often trickle away plant by plant). The lower K higher Mg has stopped the stall (especially for big multi species) regardless if they are in a primarily bark or sphagnum mix. But I tend to get better roots faster with mixes that have at least 1/2 of the volume in chopped sphagnum.


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