# Difference between these two???



## SlipperFan (Aug 12, 2007)

Can someone tell me the difference between these two Phrags, besides that they have different species in their backgrounds? These are my two plants, and the photos are quite accurate. The only difference I can see is that Urgandiae's pouch is a little lighter than Sorcerer's. Staminode, spotting, petal length & color, backside, etc. -- I can't see any difference.

I've searched photos using google and, although there are quite a few of each out there, I still don't see a difference -- even the pouch colors seem interchangeable.

Phrag. Sorcerer's Apprentice (lindleyanum var. sargentianum 'Rojo' x longifolium 'Red Ropes')






Phrag. Urgandiae (lindleyanum 'Andean Prince' x Phrag. longifolium 'Red Ropes')


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## Rick (Aug 12, 2007)

Well it's definitely going to be a subtle difference, and it may have more to do with growth habit than difference of flowers.

Lindleyanum var sargentianum is bigger than the nominal variety with bigger branching spikes. So this cross may have the propensity to be more floriferous than Sourcers Apprentice. Even though the SA's I've seen are pretty damn impressive already.


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## rdlsreno (Aug 12, 2007)

Rick said:


> Well it's definitely going to be a subtle difference, and it may have more to do with growth habit than difference of flowers.
> 
> Lindleyanum var sargentianum is bigger than the nominal variety with bigger branching spikes. So this cross may have the propensity to be more floriferous than Sourcers Apprentice. Even though the SA's I've seen are pretty damn impressive already.



I agree!! 

Ramon


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## SlipperFan (Aug 12, 2007)

They are both big plants with big fat leaves. My Sorcerer's Apprentice spike had 84 blooms before it gave up the Ghost. Right now, my Urgandiae has two spikes, one with 40 or so blooms and the other just started. Both have been in bloom continuously for over 3 years -- setting out new spikes before the old ones are done.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Aug 12, 2007)

I don't think there is a difference. I, for one, believe that lindleyanum and sargentianum are the same. I've grown both, and see no difference in blooms or growth habit....maybe lindleyanum produces more growths, but that's probably an individual trait. Take care, Eric


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## Roy (Aug 13, 2007)

From what I have seen of both lindleyanum & sargentianum, doesn't constitute different species to me either but then again I cant be sure what I have seen are genuine sargentianums. If they are they both lindleyanums and according the RHS, they're not because of separate registrations wouldn't that cause problems with the besseae registrations. On that, checking through the suggested names for the unknown Phrag I posted, looking at the pics, I can't tell the difference in the flowers shown as for each cross as the respondents couldn't as from their own comments.


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## NYEric (Aug 13, 2007)

As far as I know, the v. sargentianum comes from a distinct area and has redder petals than the straight lindleyanum.


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## SlipperFan (Aug 13, 2007)

I wonder if genetics would help here. Although I tend to be a splitter with the caudatum group, I'd be a lumper with these two. Seems to me if the progeny is the same, then the parentage is the same, even if they come from different regions.


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## Rick (Aug 13, 2007)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> I don't think there is a difference. I, for one, believe that lindleyanum and sargentianum are the same. I've grown both, and see no difference in blooms or growth habit....maybe lindleyanum produces more growths, but that's probably an individual trait. Take care, Eric



Ok Checking out Olaf's Phrag checklist in OD (2003) The primary differences listed are 1) Var. sargentianum lacks the yellow leaf margin that the nominal variant has, and 2) the staminode of var sargentianum is square rather than deltoid for the nominal form.

Coloring for sargentianum is reported to be highly variable depending on population.

The size differences I noted were for side by side plants I've seen in a few other folks GH. Ed M. has some sargentianums that dwarf my lyndlianums, but to look at photos of the flowers you would say they are identical.


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