# vietnamense bud-watch



## Bjorn (Oct 2, 2014)

Some of you may have seen this plant in the other thread http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35160
Yesterday I was taking some more Pictures and this one really starts to become seriously interesting. Not only is it hughe, but also very dark - though that may change. Enjoy!:clap:






For those of you that are not too good in Norwegian, the label says "Daffodils in pot" Its a 10cm pot by the way and this one is absolutely the biggest vietnamense I have. Must be a 4n?






Showing the size, the bud is 3inch long now!:drool:


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## naoki (Oct 2, 2014)

Cool! It might be interesting to take a look at the stomata size. I think Eliseo mentioned this. You just need to get a clear nail polish, and put a little bit under the leaf. When it's dry, you peel it off (no damage to plants), and you can look at the peeled nail polish under a microscope (a cheap one should do).


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## Justin (Oct 2, 2014)

Wow cant wait


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## orchideya (Oct 2, 2014)

That bud is taller than pot! How long to open?


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## Bjorn (Oct 2, 2014)

orchideya said:


> That bud is taller than pot! How long to open?



Must be soon now


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## Stella (Oct 2, 2014)

We are waiting ......!!!!!


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## Linus_Cello (Oct 2, 2014)

Daffodils are pink in Norway?


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## dodidoki (Oct 2, 2014)

Great!
Can you advise some coulture tip? This guy is very slow at me....


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## Erythrone (Oct 2, 2014)

Wow!!!!!!


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## 17andgrowing (Oct 2, 2014)

Culture tips culture tips please!


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## abax (Oct 3, 2014)

Oh my, the suspense always just kills me on these bud watches!


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## Bjorn (Oct 3, 2014)

Linus_Cello said:


> Daffodils are pink in Norway?



Its the season


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## Bjorn (Oct 3, 2014)

dodidoki said:


> Great!
> Can you advise some coulture tip? This guy is very slow at me....



Ok, you know, I had two flasks out of which most have survived, but only this one is that big. The rest do thrive though and bloom so its not entirely genetic. Temps, upto 30°C during daytime in summer, 20-25 in winter. Significant drop at night, summer 15-18°C minimum, winter often below 10°C , humidity normally >75% RH. Substrate is based on my standard "pretty good mix" from Lance Birk, i.e. sheet-moss, bark and sand, plus significant amounts of marble-gravel. Water often during summer every second day or more, Depends a bit on the weather. Water contains some 100ppm fertiliser An urea-based plus calcium nitrate. Ther micros are a bit special as the iron level is way lower than commonly seen.the make-up is more in line with Xavier (Roth) advises in the "Mineral nutrition" threads some years ago. Supplementing Mn and Zn with mancozeb sprays every other month.
And I also add silica to my irrigation water, at levels of some 25-50ppm perhaps (this one is uncertain). Lots of water during summer, quite restricted during winter but with high RH.


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## Bjorn (Oct 3, 2014)

There is only one day between the Pictures so its not that slow moving










This one is with flash but shows what is inside





This one is interesting comparing the monstrous one with a normal sized one that happens to bloom simultaneously. You can easily see that the right one is hughe as compared to the lef one, that is quite normal. In the background some of the rest of my vietnamense population.





The tray in front is an interesting experiment I have not told about. It was an attempt to winter-over armeniacums at extremely low temperatures. Just a couple of degrees above freezing for several months. The tray with five plants was placed in an adjacent greenhouse that is kept frost-free bu not heated, and another tray was kept in the orchid-house together with amongst others the vietnamense. Everything went fine until I discovered that mice had started eating the plants. Within a couple of days, three out of the five armeniacums had gone and I had to rescue the remaining and go mouse hunting. However the verdict of the low temp experiment was that armeniacum can stand very low winter temperatures for a long time, but they grow better if kept somewhat warmer:rollhappy:


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## Stone (Oct 3, 2014)

Very nice Bjorn. What is your min temp for the viets?


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## Bjorn (Oct 3, 2014)

Bjorn said:


> Ok, you know, I had two flasks out of which most have survived, but only this one is that big. The rest do thrive though and bloom so its not entirely genetic. Temps, upto 30°C during daytime in summer, 20-25 in winter. Significant drop at night, summer 15-18°C minimum, winter often below 10°C , humidity normally >75% RH. Substrate is based on my standard "pretty good mix" from Lance Birk, i.e. sheet-moss, bark and sand, plus significant amounts of marble-gravel. Water often during summer every second day or more, Depends a bit on the weather. Water contains some 100ppm fertiliser An urea-based plus calcium nitrate. Ther micros are a bit special as the iron level is way lower than commonly seen.the make-up is more in line with Xavier (Roth) advises in the "Mineral nutrition" threads some years ago. Supplementing Mn and Zn with mancozeb sprays every other month.
> And I also add silica to my irrigation water, at levels of some 25-50ppm perhaps (this one is uncertain). Lots of water during summer, quite restricted during winter but with high RH.


Here


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## Stone (Oct 3, 2014)

with the mancozeb spray, isn't it easier to spray with Zn an Mn sulphate?


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## Bjorn (Oct 3, 2014)

Stone said:


> with the mancozeb spray, isn't it easier to spray with Zn an Mn sulphate?



Possibly, but the mancozeb protects against some pathogens as well (except for leaving an unsighy residue )


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## NYEric (Oct 3, 2014)

Hmmm, I must try some. BTW. Looks like an eggplant! oke:


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## eggshells (Oct 3, 2014)

The only thing I don't like about the plant is its bloom duration. One waits every year to see its only for maximum of two weeks if lucky. But foliage makes up for it I guess.


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## Justin (Oct 3, 2014)

wow that plant is amazing. 4n maybe?
either way you have this species dialed in.

love viet. i need a flask.


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## Happypaphy7 (Oct 3, 2014)

eggshells said:


> The only thing I don't like about the plant is its bloom duration. One waits every year to see its only for maximum of two weeks if lucky. But foliage makes up for it I guess.



So true, and unfortunately this trait is dominant in Ho Chi Minh it seems. 
It adds size, color and prettier leaves than delenatii alone would, but then the flower life span is so short. 

By the way, it's very interesting how it opens up!


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## Trithor (Oct 5, 2014)

Is it open yet? I keep on checking back in the hope that there is a picture of this monster fully open!


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## Bjorn (Oct 6, 2014)

Yesterday, October 5th. It starts to open, next to its brother that is fully expanded and will drop soon.






From the side, wow those petals are big!


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## Ozpaph (Oct 6, 2014)

free up those petals a bit


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## Bjorn (Oct 6, 2014)

Ozpaph said:


> free up those petals a bit



Its not as bad as it looks they are free, but space is scarce


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## Stella (Oct 6, 2014)

:clap::clap::clap:


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## dodidoki (Oct 6, 2014)

OUTSTANDING viet!


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## NYEric (Oct 6, 2014)

Holy cow!!  Send it to me so I can take it to judging!


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## Trithor (Oct 6, 2014)

I find myself subconsciously holding my breath!


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## KyushuCalanthe (Oct 6, 2014)

Wow, please post shots when it is fully open. Are such short flower stalks typical of this species? I grow HCM and it always has much longer ones, like delenatii.


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## Bjorn (Oct 7, 2014)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> Wow, please post shots when it is fully open. Are such short flower stalks typical of this species? I grow HCM and it always has much longer ones, like delenatii.



Yes and no. These are shorter than normal, but they do not stretch much either. The one that is fully expanded (the small one) I would say has a stalk shorter than normal. I'll bet the big ones stalk will grow a bit so that it presents the flower better.


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## Bjorn (Oct 7, 2014)

One more day......Things are not that slow, are they?











Two brothers


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## troy (Oct 7, 2014)

Lol.. that is bad ass!


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## 17andgrowing (Oct 7, 2014)

Awesome!


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## abax (Oct 8, 2014)

It's such fun to watch this lovely unfold its charms.


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## Stella (Oct 8, 2014)

How nice!!!!!!!!!!


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## SlipperFan (Oct 8, 2014)

One more photo (at least) Please.


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## Bjorn (Oct 9, 2014)

Here you are Dot; a "daffodil" picture from yesterday Oct. 8th.




not so much happening, but its moving and there is more to go!


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## Ozpaph (Oct 9, 2014)

a bit disappointing shape wise.


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## Paul (Oct 9, 2014)

I find it very nice colours, have to wait next time for the shape as it can really improve from the first to the second bloom in this species (plant must have maximum growth to make good flowers)


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## NYEric (Oct 13, 2014)

Did it open any more?


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## Bjorn (Oct 14, 2014)

NYEric said:


> Did it open any more?


Sure, these are from Sunday 12th
















Tried to measure size, seems to be approximately 15cm across now. Normal is 10-12.


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## JeanLux (Oct 14, 2014)

Wow, I would be interested to see if one of those would survive in my gh, with my viets  !!!! Jean


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## Bjorn (Oct 14, 2014)

JeanLux said:


> Wow, I would be interested to see if one of those would survive in my gh, with my viets  !!!! Jean



Why would they not? I am seriously considering to self it, the plant is extremely vigorous, having 3 sideshoots together with this hughe bloom. Must be some genetic thing as it came out of the same flask (probably, I have had 2 flasks)


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## Erythrone (Oct 14, 2014)

Great plants!!!!!!!!!!


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## dodidoki (Oct 14, 2014)

HUGE Vietnamense!


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## dodidoki (Oct 14, 2014)

And there is a very nice Charlie-group in background!


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## Erythrone (Oct 14, 2014)

Do you know the clonal names of the parents?


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## Erythrone (Oct 14, 2014)

About watering... I read you water often in summer. Do you keep your plants on the wet side if you campare with other Paphs?

I also read you use urea as fertilizer. Do you water to foliage and the mix?


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## Bjorn (Oct 14, 2014)

Erythrone said:


> Do you know the clonal names of the parents?



They are just some numbers, do not recall right now, but expect that the parents are wild-collected and let to breed (and die?) like Roth have described in some of his threads. And yes, its from Hung Sheng.


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## Bjorn (Oct 14, 2014)

Erythrone said:


> About watering... I read you water often in summer. Do you keep your plants on the wet side if you campare with other Paphs?
> 
> I also read you use urea as fertilizer. Do you water to foliage and the mix?



The compost is mostly marble gravel With some sand, moss and bark so it does not adsorb much water anyhow. But yes I water almost every day. Try to restrict myself to every second/Third day, but its difficult. And its overhead with a hose. Since the pots are small and the leaves overlap quite a bit they may experience drier conditions than I believe though. When I see obvious cases of the latter, I relocate a bit and try to give more water. Winter is a much drier story though.

All my water contains fertiliser at a low level (<100ppmTDS, some 15ppm N perhaps a bit less) that is added through proportioners connected to the hose I use for watering. No weekly fertiliser, just always fertiliser, but little. The same water is used for all my orchids including phrags like kovachii, andrettae and fisherii that seems to like it as well. If this info is connected to the fact that I overhead water with a hose,,,well its justifiable to claim that to some degree also foliar feeding is going on. And btw. water in the crown is unavoidable so it happens at every watering with no particular amount of decease incidents. But that is a different story


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## Bjorn (Oct 14, 2014)

dodidoki said:


> And there is a very nice Charlie-group in background!



yes, this one


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## Erythrone (Oct 14, 2014)

Bjorn said:


> The compost is mostly marble gravel With some sand, moss and bark so it does not adsorb much water anyhow. But yes I water almost every day. Try to restrict myself to every second/Third day, but its difficult. And its overhead with a hose. Since the pots are small and the leaves overlap quite a bit they may experience drier conditions than I believe though. When I see obvious cases of the latter, I relocate a bit and try to give more water. Winter is a much drier story though.
> 
> All my water contains fertiliser at a low level (<100ppmTDS, some 15ppm N perhaps a bit less) that is added through proportioners connected to the hose I use for watering. No weekly fertiliser, just always fertiliser, but little. The same water is used for all my orchids including phrags like kovachii, andrettae and fisherii that seems to like it as well. If this info is connected to the fact that I overhead water with a hose,,,well its justifiable to claim that to some degree also foliar feeding is going on. And btw. water in the crown is unavoidable so it happens at every watering with no particular amount of decease incidents. But that is a different story



Thank you so much!


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## SlipperFan (Oct 14, 2014)

I'll take the one on the right!


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## NYEric (Oct 15, 2014)

Good stuff. Too bad judging is based on "Natural Spread", because those wings on the viet would make it huge if held out straight.


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## Bjorn (Oct 15, 2014)

NYEric said:


> Good stuff. Too bad judging is based on "Natural Spread", because those wings on the viet would make it huge if held out straight.



Its still expanding! At least I hope so I am travelling right now so I cannot check before coming home on Saturday:drool:
It seems to be common for vietnamense to start up as "hound-dogs" before stretching out the "ears". But will this one? - I hope so.


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## Hamlet (Oct 16, 2014)

Very nice vietnamense, I hope my seedlings will grow like yours. I have to say though, as impressive as the big one is, I prefer the little one on the right because of the shape. But both look great and happy!


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## Bjorn (Oct 20, 2014)

*Update*

It has not expanded as much as I hoped for 





But perhaps, since it is not staked, and therefore hangs a bit, if I tilt the pot so that the flower faces upwards????




That does of course make a difference. Perhaps the next blooming (at lower temperatures) will improve stature - and of course if I staked it...... One of these days I'll self it.....


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## NYEric (Oct 20, 2014)

Yes, the photo with gravity helping spread the petals looks amazing!!


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## 17andgrowing (Oct 20, 2014)

That's fantastic Bjorn


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## Bjorn (Oct 27, 2014)

xSelf hope it has taken.





The interior of the poch was VERY furry, almost like an animals fur.


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## NYEric (Oct 27, 2014)

Good luck. Very interesting.


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## orchideya (Oct 27, 2014)

Cool! I have no idea how you do it on paphs, just tried with phalaenopsis.
When can you see if worked?


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## Bjorn (Oct 27, 2014)

When the seeds produces protocorn!:rollhappy:
No. Frankly, the first is when the ovary starts to swell and the stalk does not dry out. According to my experience, it may take more than a week before the flower falls of, kinda slow thing. After seed harvest ypu may checkthe seds in a microscope for embryos. The proof of the pudding is the eating which also applies to these things.
The pollination is not always that easy, that is why the pouch often is removed to get access to the stigma.


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## paworsport (Nov 24, 2014)

Both are very nice:drool::drool:
But I was sure that vietnamense has only a staminode with a green heart on it without any red marks.

Could we discuss this point on the forum ? Could it be an hybrid with a little part of delenatii like ho chi min x back crossed with vietnamense ?


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## paworsport (Nov 24, 2014)

I have found a o,d post on the forum from Australia ( quietaustralian)and, was not able to past the link "

I'm not sure this is a pure Paph vietnamense. Looking at the staminode, I'd guess it's a Paph Vo Nguyen Giap (Paph Ho Chi Minh x Paph vietnamense).

What do you think, David?"


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## Bjorn (Nov 25, 2014)

Here is the link to that thread
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31203&highlight=vietnamense
Frankly, I have been wondering about the same, so I studied the staminode carefully when it was in bloom but did not see any clear red in it. The red in the pictures might come as a reflex or something? BUT there is this dark area which is not normal.
Another thing is that it comes from a flask of other vietnamense; some of them have already bloomed last winter. One was almost the same size as the "suspectible" one, but with a much smaller plant. And without that dark blotch.
See below.






Since their origin is the same flask, and the other flowers I have seen of that flask are normal, I came to the conclusion that the big one is a result of some genetic mutation, e.g. polyploidity. That is based on the sheer size and vigour of the plant. But of course, it may be some foreign genes mixed into the genetic make-up. But there seems to be something with the time-line that at the best is a close race.
Ho Chi Minh was registered in 2002, Vo Ngyen Giap in 2013 which makes sense time-wise. My vietnamense were deflasked in March 2012 and a rough guesstimate says that they had been at least 2-3 years since seed harvest, so 2009, and then a year since pollination, 2008. Possible but likely?
Just my 2cents....
But there is something different with that plant that is true...


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## paworsport (Nov 25, 2014)

Bjorn said:


> Here is the link to that thread
> http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31203&highlight=vietnamense
> Frankly, I have been wondering about the same, so I studied the staminode carefully when it was in bloom but did not see any clear red in it. The red in the pictures might come as a reflex or something? BUT there is this dark area which is not normal.
> Another thing is that it comes from a flask of other vietnamense; some of them have already bloomed last winter. One was almost the same size as the "suspectible" one, but with a much smaller plant. And without that dark blotch.
> ...




Thanks Bjorn for'your message it is quite interesting
How do you grow them exactly?


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## Bjorn (Nov 27, 2014)

Just a last comment. After searching Google for Paph vietnamense, I have seen many questionable examples that probably are Ho Chi Minh. Some other have only a slight touch of red and for at least one of them the photo was taken in April 2007. Very unlikely to be a second generation hybrid, as the species itself was not discovered before 1998 if I am right....Another one was a picture of a division of an allegedly wild collected plant (offered at a high price of course) - with traces of red in the staminode. All in all the pictures of staminodes with traces of red were so plentyful that I personally feel it is unlikely that they could all be second generation hybrids and not a genetic variation, perhaps originating from one single location. Particularly taken the novelty of the back-cross of HCM with vietnamense into account. But one can of course never be certain.......:evil:


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