# Help for ID of two paphs



## golden (Nov 4, 2008)

HI to everyone ! I am new to this forum and I need your help 
This paph. was bought as Paphiopedilum Elfin Charm (paph.primulinum x fairrieanum).The plant was in bud when I bought it ,now when the flowers have opened I have serious doubts about the name .... Here are the photos:
close look of the flower: 



the whole plant: 



This is just to get an idea about the size: 



The leaves are pure green without any markings, each spike carries a single flower. As far as I know Paphiopedilum Elfin Charm is s multifloral hybride. Any ideas?

The second one. Bought with the name Bounty Bay, but I cannot find any information about such paph. on the internet . Here it is 



Any ideas?

Thank you in advance.
Maya


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## SlipperKing (Nov 4, 2008)

the first one looks like a cross between fairrieanum and helenae. At least, this is what I would imagine it to look like. Golden, what part of the world are you in? I have know idea about the second flower. Maybe Ross could help you out.


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## labskaus (Nov 4, 2008)

I agree with Rick about the first one, it looks like primulinum x helenae. Maya, on a small plant these multiflorals may produce only one flower. Probably gets better next time.

I've seen Paph Bount*r*y Bay listed on one vendors website, and would assume Paph. Bantry Bay is ment.

Best wishes, Carsten


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## golden (Nov 4, 2008)

Slipperking, I am from Bulgaria,but the paphs were bought from Sweden. 

I suppose the name of the second plant should be Paph. Bantry Bay ,thank you Carsten. Any ideas about the parent of Paph. Bantry Bay ?


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## SlipperKing (Nov 4, 2008)

golden said:


> Slipperking, I am from Bulgaria,but the paphs were bought from Sweden.
> 
> I suppose the name of the second plant should be Paph. Bantry Bay ,thank you Carsten. Any ideas about the parent of Paph. Bantry Bay ?


The reason I ask about your location is if the first plant is fairrieanum X helenae, then you must not live here in the USA. Because that cross has not been offered, that I know of, here in the US.


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## goldenrose (Nov 4, 2008)

IMO, I think it looks like a colorful Elfin Charm. If album parent(s) were used, it wouldn't have as much red or none.
I wouldn't be to quick to change the tag on the complex, the more complex they get the harder to determine. RHS website does have a Bantry Bay (London Wall x La Honda) by Stewart 1976. I know there are clones of London Wall that are reds (no spotting) and I think La Honda is a green?


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## labskaus (Nov 4, 2008)

I should try and read what others write. Sorry, Rick, I didn't notice you wrote fairrieanum x helenae. The cross primulinum x helenae has been offered over here recently, I got confused. That one has quite a different staminode, for a start.

Barbi-Doll comes to mind, actually.

Best wishes, Carsten


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## SlipperKing (Nov 4, 2008)

Maya,
One thing you could do is go back to where you bought the plant. If it is a large commercial nursery they may have others in bloom and you can compare. Also, it may be that they have both crosses, prim X fairrie and hele X fairrie which could offer up a clue. Nurseries get a lot of general public traffic and many people pull tags then put them back in the wrong pot or drop them on the floor. This could be the case.
The reason I said your flower looks like a cross of helenae and fairrieanum is because both parents pass on strong influence in shape. Fairrieanum has a long track record of this. Helenae with it's short history as a parent is also showing this same trend. Even when cross with "bull dog" type paphs the helenae shape is clearly seen. Primulium on the other hand is not as dominant for shape but does tend to produce hybrids with multiple flowers. Your plant is large with flower spikes but without any evidence of secondary flowers forming from the spikes. IMHO Good luck


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## SlipperKing (Nov 4, 2008)

labskaus said:


> I should try and read what others write. Sorry, Rick, I didn't notice you wrote fairrieanum x helenae. The cross primulinum x helenae has been offered over here recently, I got confused. That one has quite a different staminode, for a start.
> 
> Barbi-Doll comes to mind, actually.
> 
> Best wishes, Carsten


 
Barbi-Doll of course could be another possibility. I do have a problem with Maya's dorsal, the green veining. Ross has offered up a number of Barbi-Dolls, maybe he can tell us if the green veining a trait of some Barbi-Dolls.


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## golden (Nov 4, 2008)

Slipperking, I was in Sweden only for 5 days and now I am back to Bulgaria. When I bought the plant the buds were rather small so I didn`t have any clue about the future flowering. They were bought from the Orchidehuset.


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## Hien (Nov 4, 2008)

SlipperKing said:


> Barbi-Doll of course could be another possibility. I do have a problem with Maya's dorsal, the green veining. Ross has offered up a number of Barbi-Dolls, maybe he can tell us if the green veining a trait of some Barbi-Dolls.



I agree with Barbi-Dolls.
There is a picture of
Paph. helenae x fairrieanum on cloud orchids website, the helenae dorsal is very prominent, not like this
http://images.google.com/imgres?img...+fairrieanum&start=60&ndsp=20&um=1&hl=en&sa=N


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## SlipperKing (Nov 4, 2008)

Hien said:


> I agree with Barbi-Dolls.
> There is a picture of
> Paph. helenae x fairrieanum on cloud orchids website, the helenae dorsal is very prominent, not like this
> http://images.google.com/imgres?img...+fairrieanum&start=60&ndsp=20&um=1&hl=en&sa=N


Check your reference website again Hien. It says "expecting" on the front of the PIC, meaning this is not hel X fairrie but expecting it to look similar. So I could still be right, agree?


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## golden (Nov 4, 2008)

Here are a few numbers if this will help:
size of flower:6sm
leave span: 14sm
Having a realy CLOSE look at the leaves I discovered a subtle dark green pattern. The substance of the leaves ... it is a bit difficult to explain.... on touch they resemble the substance of paph.bellatulum ...


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## SlipperKing (Nov 4, 2008)

golden said:


> Here are a few numbers if this will help:
> size of flower:6sm
> leave span: 14sm
> Having a realy CLOSE look at the leaves I discovered a subtle dark green pattern. The substance of the leaves ... it is a bit difficult to explain.... on touch they resemble the substance of paph.bellatulum ...


The numbers you have are probable within the range of either one of these possible hybrids. Maybe you could call or email this firm and explain what happened. Even email your PIC to them. There may have been others with the same issues. One other possible explaination could be that you indeed have a Barbi-Doll but instead of using the normal barbigerum, the coccianum varity was used. This would explain the brightly colored pouch and petals. That's if coccianum passes these traits on.


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## SlipperFan (Nov 4, 2008)

Interesting discussion, but first of all, welcome to slippertalk, Maya!


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## slippertalker (Nov 4, 2008)

I immediately noticed the influence of Paph helenae which is very dominant in most crosses in the shape and color of the flower, and the size of the flower and plant. The other parent does appear to be Paph fairreanum which is usually very influential also. It is a lovely little plant!


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## Ernie (Nov 4, 2008)

Barbi-Doll is a likely choice for the first. I highly doubt it's Elfin Charm and have bloomed many from several different remakes of the grex. Could also be (Pinocchio X helenae) which has been floating around recently. The plants are small and usually look like bifloral helenae with better form. 

-Ernie


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## paphreek (Nov 5, 2008)

Sorry for the slow response. Here's pictures of 5 different plants sold to me as Paph Barbi-Doll.


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## paphreek (Nov 5, 2008)

labskaus said:


> I agree with Rick about the first one, it looks like primulinum x helenae. Maya, on a small plant these multiflorals may produce only one flower. Probably gets better next time.
> 
> I've seen Paph Bount*r*y Bay listed on one vendors website, and would assume Paph. Bantry Bay is ment.
> 
> Best wishes, Carsten



Paph Bantry Bay = London Wall X La Honda


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## golden (Nov 5, 2008)

Thank you all 
I emailed the vendor and sent him the photos...this was several days ago but there is no answer . I hope he will answer eventualy.......


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## SlipperKing (Nov 5, 2008)

golden said:


> Thank you all
> I emailed the vendor and sent him the photos...this was several days ago but there is no answer . I hope he will answer eventualy.......


I think Ross with all of his Barbi-Dolls has answered your question! Your dorsal was throwing me off. But now that Ross has posted all of these PICs The dorsals match up very well. A big thank you Ross for jumping in.


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## golden (Nov 5, 2008)

I will change the name under the pictures.
Thank you all for the help


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## NYEric (Nov 5, 2008)

Welcome from NYC!  
I have no idea what it is!


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## golden (Nov 7, 2008)

Excuse me for my probably stupid question ,but you write that paph.Barbi Doll is a hybride between paph.helenae x fairrieanum and on many sites it is given as a hybride between paph.barbigerum x fairrieanum .Is barbigerum a sinonym /old name of helenae?


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## SlipperKing (Nov 7, 2008)

golden said:


> Excuse me for my probably stupid question ,but you write that paph.Barbi Doll is a hybride between paph.helenae x fairrieanum and on many sites it is given as a hybride between paph.barbigerum x fairrieanum .Is barbigerum a sinonym /old name of helenae?


Sorry for the confussion, Babi-Doll = P barbigerun X fairrieanum. P helenae is a totally different species


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## golden (Nov 7, 2008)

Thanks


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## biothanasis (Nov 11, 2008)

Lovely paphs!!! No idea of the ID though...!


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