# Banana - experiment



## polyantha (Mar 25, 2015)

Hi everyone!

I did some testing. I always wondered if banana is really that important in the replate media. See by yourself:

P. philippinense x P. rothschildianum (left with banana - right without)







P. rothschildianum (left with banana - right without)






The beakers stood next to each other, so same light and temperature. I will replate the ones on the right on banana in a week. They should grow normally from that point.
Alot of seedlings (including the ones shown) will be up for sale soon (worldwide). If you are interested and want some info, parent pics or reservations: PM.


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## NYEric (Mar 25, 2015)

Nice. Supports the hypothesis that banana is beneficial. Thanks for sharing.


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## SlipperFan (Mar 25, 2015)

Interesting. Thanks!


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## SlipperKing (Mar 25, 2015)

Nice. Have you tried potato yet? That's in addition to the banana


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## ALToronto (Mar 25, 2015)

Bananas are high in Potassium. Not sure about potatoes, but both also provide sugars.


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## polyantha (Mar 26, 2015)

I have not tried potato for Paphs. Only for Cypripedium.


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## naoki (Mar 26, 2015)

It is very clear difference. Thanks, polyanthus. Which media did you use? Do the roots have similar response? Do you use banana for the mother (germinating) flask, too?

I guess that scientists haven't figured out why it works yet (e.g. added sugar or phytohormones/growth factors). According to Aaron Hick's book, it work against for some species (e.g. Cattleya).


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## Ozpaph (Mar 26, 2015)

very good experiment though you should do more that one flask each.


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## polyantha (Mar 27, 2015)

naoki said:


> It is very clear difference. Thanks, polyanthus. Which media did you use? Do the roots have similar response? Do you use banana for the mother (germinating) flask, too?.


P6668. Banana is not good for germination, but I didn't test that.



Ozpaph said:


> very good experiment though you should do more that one flask each.


Yes, you are right. But the seed that me and my friends produce is actually too good to be wasted in experiments. That's the reason why I only took 4 flasks so far.


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## Rick (Mar 28, 2015)

ALToronto said:


> Bananas are high in Potassium. Not sure about potatoes, but both also provide sugars.



I guess relatively speaking. But

A whole banana contains 422 mg of K. So K contribution is probably not significant unless Polyantha was able to concentrate several bananas into his batch of flasking materials.

Also the K concentration of most flasking formulas is already very high. (Potassium nitrate and potassium chloride are common ingredients in many different flasking media). So most likely the starch/sugars from the banana are the driver in this case. 

Avocado, sweet potato and spinach actually have a lot more K per unit than bananas, but Avocado has a lot of unique fats/oils that might be interesting to add to a flasking media.


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## Rick (Mar 28, 2015)

http://phytotechlab.com/media/downloads/7064/P668-Info.pdf

Here's the product description for the basic P668 from Phytotech. (equivalent to Sigma P6668)

No shortage of K in this to start with.


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## Rick (Mar 28, 2015)

Rick said:


> I guess relatively speaking. But
> 
> A whole banana contains 422 mg of K. So K contribution is probably not significant unless Polyantha was able to concentrate several bananas into his batch of flasking materials.



Looking up some info on banana powder.

100 grams of dehydrated banana powder contains about 1.5 grams of K, but 47 grams of sugar.

Phytotech makes a version of 668 with banana powder added at the rate of 30 gram per liter. (I believe that is final projected media concentration). So that could contribute another 400+mg/L K to the media, but probably more important 16,000 mg/L sugars.


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## Trithor (Mar 30, 2015)

I use the p668 with added banana for my replate flasks. When I pour the replates, I often have a couple 100ml left over with no replate tubs available (unless I open a whole new pack), so I pour the left over medium into germination flasks. I try to spread seed on a variety of different mediums (M&S, Knudson, orchidmax) and try an add a p668 with banana as well. Up till now I see no difference in germination on the banana as contrasted to the others. I do see differences between media with or without coconut though.
I have another batch of trials running where I have substituted pawpaw for the banana, and another where I have added dark bok beer to the medium in the place of the banana.


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## Rick (Apr 3, 2015)

Trithor said:


> I have another batch of trials running where I have added dark bok beer to the medium in the place of the banana.



That would certainly get me to germinate:wink:

Let us know when they go photosynthetic!!


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## gonewild (Apr 4, 2015)

As a banana ripens it naturally begins to grow lactic bacteria.
The more ripe it gets the more bacteria it has and also the more lactic acid it contains.

Here is something to consider... Perhaps good results will be seen from using fermented bananas or powdered fermented bananas.
Maybe the results will differ greatly between green and ripe bananas.
Using fermented bananas may be adding the lactic compounds.


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## gonewild (Apr 4, 2015)

Trithor said:


> and another where I have added dark bok beer to the medium in the place of the banana.



Try banana beer.


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## Rick (Apr 4, 2015)

gonewild said:


> Here is something to consider... Perhaps good results will be seen from using fermented bananas or powdered fermented bananas.



Lance I'm not sure how much control the flasking folks have on the quality of the banana powder they use.

Not doing any flasking myself I thought they may be using raw banana, but after poking around the flasking media manufacturers, they are probably using the banana powder supplied by the media manufacturers.


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## Ray (Apr 5, 2015)

Might not the benefit of the banana be simply the extra sugar (a source of extra carbon)?


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## gonewild (Apr 5, 2015)

Ray said:


> Might not the benefit of the banana be simply the extra sugar (a source of extra carbon)?



Maybe. But I would assume Flaskers have tried simply adding more sugar without banana and it did not work as well as the banana did. If that is the case then it has to be more than simply the sugar in the banana.

And how would the seedlings get the carbon from the sugar in the media?


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## Rick (Apr 5, 2015)

gonewild said:


> Maybe. But I would assume Flaskers have tried simply adding more sugar without banana and it did not work as well as the banana did. If that is the case then it has to be more than simply the sugar in the banana.
> 
> And how would the seedlings get the carbon from the sugar in the media?



It depends on the sugar form, but plants make/use sugars before turning it into other carbon compounds in the plant. Cellulose is not much more than a polymeric form of sugar (starch).

So this would just bypass the requirement to manufacture them first (by photosynthesis, which embryonic orchids do not have anyway).

Keep in mind there are a handful of other fert mixes (for adult plants) out there which add sugar.


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## gonewild (Apr 5, 2015)

Rick said:


> So this would just bypass the requirement to manufacture them first (by photosynthesis, which embryonic orchids do not have anyway).



Embryonic orchids don't have roots either to absorb the sugar from the media, so how will they get it? 



> Keep in mind there are a handful of other fert mixes (for adult plants) out there which add sugar.



Do they give good results by supplying the sugars to the plants or by feeding beneficial organisms that convert the sugar to nutrients for the plant?
Invitro there are no beneficial organisms.


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## Rick (Apr 5, 2015)

gonewild said:


> Embryonic orchids don't have roots either to absorb the sugar from the media, so how will they get it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In a supposedly bacteria and fungal free flasking system how do they uptake the ton of sugar, peptone, ....... and all the other complex carbons in banana, potato, coconut milk..... ?

I don't know if anyone playing with the sugar based ferts has trialed them in aseptic hydroponic systems, so can't answer if direct uptake is the mechanism. It's probably been demonstrated for non orchids, but we grow crop plants to make sugar for us, so that would not be a cost benefit to grow crop species by adding sugar.


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## gonewild (Apr 5, 2015)

Rick said:


> In a supposedly bacteria and fungal free flasking system how do they uptake the ton of sugar, peptone, ....... and all the other complex carbons in banana, potato, coconut milk..... ?



They run on fumes! 
Since they have no roots in the media they either get the nutrients from the stem tissue that is in contact with the media or absorb it from the atmosphere inside the flask. In either case they are taking in nutrients without using roots. 

What happens to the solid agar nutrient compounds inside the flask? Perhaps they vaporize and are absorbed from the atmosphere.


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## Rick (Apr 5, 2015)

gonewild said:


> They run on fumes!
> Since they have no roots in the media they either get the nutrients from the stem tissue that is in contact with the media or absorb it from the atmosphere inside the flask. In either case they are taking in nutrients without using roots.
> 
> What happens to the solid agar nutrient compounds inside the flask? Perhaps they vaporize and are absorbed from the atmosphere.



In some ways contrast to the corn seed. The embryo at the tip of the seed is rootless too, but the bulk of the seed (packet) is a pile of sugar/carbohydrate to get the embryo up to root and leaf size where it can start accessing environmental water and carbon.

In orchids the seed packet is absent so the fungus connection (which is temporary or non-essential in photosynthesizing plants) is used to transport carbon to the orchid embryo.


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## gonewild (Apr 5, 2015)

Rick said:


> In some ways contrast to the corn seed. The embryo at the tip of the seed is rootless too, but the bulk of the seed (packet) is a pile of sugar/carbohydrate to get the embryo up to root and leaf size where it can start accessing environmental water and carbon.
> 
> In orchids the seed packet is absent so the fungus connection (which is temporary or non-essential in photosynthesizing plants) is used to transport carbon to the orchid embryo.



That triggers a lot of thoughts that would sound crazy to most people.
One being that orchid roots are evolved to absorb nutrients in forms other than simple dissolved salts. If the embryo can obtain nutrients from the fungus without roots why would the mature plant not continue to get nutrients from that supplier? Why switch to a nutrient supply that comes sporadically when and if it rains when you have a fungus living on your roots that will deliver nutrients all day long every day?


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## Trithor (Apr 6, 2015)

There are reports of reduced germination on banana containing mediums (I have not noticed this yet), but there is almost certainly improved growth on replates on banana. The banana used (from my reading) is green banana. Pulping banana to add to the medium is a messy business, so to simplify matters we just buy banana powder (and as indicated, there is no control over the age of banana used). There is certainly a big difference in the requirements for germination and growth.


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## cnycharles (Apr 6, 2015)

Maybe it doesn't 'switch' but 'adds'... Seeing how other orchids are largely dependent on the fungus 
A tiny embryo likely doesn't have huge fast food needs, so in culture if it takes a long time to be drawn or diffused through the outer later it will be okay. Maybe in nature with fungus it would be ready faster?


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## myxodex (Apr 6, 2015)

gonewild said:


> That triggers a lot of thoughts that would sound crazy to most people.
> One being that orchid roots are evolved to absorb nutrients in forms other than simple dissolved salts. If the embryo can obtain nutrients from the fungus without roots why would the mature plant not continue to get nutrients from that supplier? Why switch to a nutrient supply that comes sporadically when and if it rains when you have a fungus living on your roots that will deliver nutrients all day long every day?



You've hit on a dogma in plant science which is rapidly losing it's grip, i.e. that plants only take up inorganic nutrients. The initial discoveries of plants taking up amino acids for instance were considered to be of little relevence outside the laboratory and we now know they have evolved specialised transporters for acidic and basic amino acids. The finding that surprised me was that plants also take up di- and tri- peptides, and they use different transporter genes for the di- and tri- peptides. I had wrongly assumed that adding peptone (protein digest) to orchid germination media was inefficient because only a small fraction of the digest is made up of free (single) amino acids but rather mostly as oligopeptides. It turns out that di- and tri- peptide uptake might even be more efficient than that for single amino acids.

Then there are the extremes of course ... check this out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i97IGPaUMx8


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## polyantha (Apr 7, 2015)

@Trithor: I have noticed that rothschildianum was growing faster in the sowing flask without banana than in the replate flask with 60g/l banana. So i had to reduced the concentration of banana for this species. I noticed that not just in two or three flasks, but on pretty much all the roths I sowed since I started. I am still trying to find the optimal concentration for roth, so at the moment it is 40g/l. Do you have experience with roth?


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## JamesMatthewSim (Jun 30, 2022)

Hello, would anybody know the contact information for Trithor and polyantha? I see that they haven't been active for quite a while but I want to ask some questions to them. Thanks in advance.


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