# Paph. wardii aureum N Nakamura CBR / JOGA



## Susie11 (Jun 23, 2012)

*Paph wardii alba*

My first time showing a paph on here. I got this in low sheaf about three months ago. It is not the first blooming of this Japanese awarded clone.


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## hardy (Jun 23, 2012)

I love how it looks! Great buy!  
The plant looks husky too. 
(My two wardii albums are weak growers) -__-


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## Shiva (Jun 23, 2012)

Nice! But there is a suspicious red rust on the right lower leaf. Have you checked for spider mites?


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## Roth (Jun 23, 2012)

It's a very nice one...

That's a seedling of wardii album, from Taiwan or Germany but not the awarded clone unfortunately, and for absolutely sure not a progeny of the wardii Nakamura.

Wardii Nakamura is a 'dilute' form, not an albino, but a greenish copper tone cultivar, similar to sukhakhulii aureum 'Paleface'. Unlike the sukhakhulii aureum, all of its selfings turns out either colored, or aureum, none has been albino.


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## Susie11 (Jun 23, 2012)

Shiva said:


> Nice! But there is a suspicious red rust on the right lower leaf. Have you checked for spider mites?


Thanks Shiva. This happpenbd after I got it home. It is mechanical only but thanks for being concerned. 


Roth said:


> It's a very nice one...
> 
> That's a seedling of wardii album, from Taiwan or Germany but not the awarded clone unfortunately, and for absolutely sure not a progeny of the wardii Nakamura.
> 
> Wardii Nakamura is a 'dilute' form, not an albino, but a greenish copper tone cultivar, similar to sukhakhulii aureum 'Paleface'. Unlike the sukhakhulii aureum, all of its selfings turns out either colored, or aureum, none has been albino.



So what did it get awarded for then? Are you suggesting that the title is wrong?


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## SlipperFan (Jun 23, 2012)

It's a beauty.

I get confused on the term "album" as I understand that the word is from _albus_ which means "white". Aureum, I think comes from a latin word meaning "gold" -- so how do these terms apply to green flowers??? I know that albino is without pigment, so that may apply to green flowers if green isn't really a pigment.


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## NYEric (Jun 23, 2012)

It is album compared to non-album form!


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## SlipperKing (Jun 23, 2012)

Nice one Susie.


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## abax (Jun 24, 2012)

I am a bit confused on the terms "alba" and "album" in reference to orchid color. I'd like to hear an explanation I
can understand. How about you Dot?


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## Roth (Jun 24, 2012)

Susie11 said:


> So what did it get awarded for then? Are you suggesting that the title is wrong?



Yours is a seedling of wardii album (albino), very good quality indeed, but not awarded. Indeed the title is wrong...

Wardii AUREUM Nakamura is a kind of dilute form, golden green flowers with a kind of extremely light brownish/rusty specking. It got a CBR/JOGA ( Certificate of Botanical Recognition), because it is a unique type of wardii, not albino, not normally colored. It is in fact very similar in its color pattern to sukhakhulii aureum 'Paleface'.

I found a photo on the internet here:






It is a Chinese type wardii as well. Yours is a Burmese type wardii, the petals are a bit more horizontal. As far as I know, there are not true seedlings on the market of that one, and a division is indeed very expensive ( about 400USD/growth in Japan now).

I just had a look on internet, and indeed people offers plants of wardii aureum 'Nakamura', for 12.50 euros, it is clearly seedlings of wardii album, but not divisions of the original awarded clone. They have some others awarded paphs like that on sale, but they should add at least ' x self' to the name, none is a division of an awarded plant.



SlipperFan said:


> It's a beauty.
> 
> I get confused on the term "album" as I understand that the word is from _albus_ which means "white". Aureum, I think comes from a latin word meaning "gold" -- so how do these terms apply to green flowers??? I know that albino is without pigment, so that may apply to green flowers if green isn't really a pigment.



Album is the albino that we all know. aureum has been applied to very few plants, that usually would be better coined ' dilute colors', where the color is predominantly yellowish/yellow green, and usually the red/brown tones of the normal colored form are replaced by a kind of extremely light brown/light rusty color. sukhakhulii aureum, philippinense aureum, wardii aureum, villosum aureum ( not the album but the golden yellow one with a bit of brownish color...) are named like that. They are more important than albinos. An albino usually is guided by recessive genes. An aureum/dilute in several cases turned out to have 'color dilution' or 'color suppression' gene that can be dominant or codominant for what it's worth.


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## John M (Jun 24, 2012)

abax said:


> I am a bit confused on the terms "alba" and "album" in reference to orchid color. I'd like to hear an explanation I
> can understand. How about you Dot?



Angela, here's the way I understand it: because Paphiopedilum and Phragmipedium end in "um", the albino Paphs and Phrags are called "album". Likewise, albino Cattleyas are called "alba" because Cattleya ends in an "a".


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## abax (Jun 24, 2012)

Thank you, John. That's an explanation I can understand,
although the reasoning behind the designations somehow
doesn't seem particularly logical...or maybe too logical for
orchid descriptions. I expected something far more complex and technical. You're a treasure, John M.


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## Susie11 (Jun 24, 2012)

Thanks Dot and Roth. I have contacted the seller to ask him why my plant does not resemble the accompanying picture -which looks nothing like the bloom that I have. I will ask the mods to change the title if that is possible. Here is the tag that came with my paph inside the pot:





So I guess that this was a mistake and that the correct plant was not sent?

The picture that advertised this paph looks like this:


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## Ozpaph (Jun 24, 2012)

Susie, you have a really special and lovely plant. I understand your disappointment at the 'inaccurate' labeling.
As an aside I would have thought it unusual for an awarded, named division to have a printed label with growing instructions. How many divisions could there really be?


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## Susie11 (Jun 24, 2012)

Well I am a novice so I didn't consider that aspect of it but I would have thought that if you import from abroad then there is no limit to the number that you can have available at any one time. Don't get me wrong, I do love this plant I find it very pretty and I am glad that I got it but I would like to know what the correct name is. As I said, I will wait and see what the seller says. I emailed him yesterday. It was the people on here that drew my attention to the dubious name. So are you saying that the seller mislead me / us -as in those that buy from him?


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## likespaphs (Jun 24, 2012)

not to be too personal, but was it fairly expensive? (a yes/no answer is great, no need to spell out the $)
if it wasn't, that is also an indication that it is not a division of an awarded plant


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## John M (Jun 24, 2012)

First off; it's a VERY beautiful wardii v. album (not aureum). I'd love to be so lucky to have it in my collection! For the price you paid, you got a real winner! This is a case where things went wrong; but, ended up being very right anyway.

Also, I'm guessing what attracted you to this and prompted you to order it was the photo, not the name. Correct? If so, you still got what you wanted; only it's better than the flower in the seller's photo! So, you did good. In this case, the issue is really only what is the correct name? The correct name is Paph. wardii v. album. It is not a division of the original awarded clone. The photo that the seller used does not appear to be a photo of the original awared clone; but, one of a random album flower, which isn't as nice as the one you have.

If you were REALLY wanting a division of the original plant, then, you've got a problem. However, once you get past being a newbie, you will have a better understanding how much actual divisions cost. The Japanese pay a king's ransom for their good plants. There's no way division would be available for anything less than VERY BIG bucks. That should've been your first clue. But, as you say, you're new....and nobody can learn everything all at once. It takes time to pick up all this information. It's part of what makes growing orchids fun. It's fun to learn and it take awhile to learn it all, if that is even possible.

So, the bottom line seems to be that the seller sent you a beautiful, healthy album wardii, better than the one in his advertisement photograph and you paid a very reasonable price. There's no reason to not remain pleased with what you've got. If you don't like it now, please send it to me!

However, I'd like to know what the extra "N." is for? The awarded clone is Paph. wardii aureum 'Nakamura' CBR/JOGA. But the label that you have says Paph. wardii aureum N. Nakamura CBR/JOGA. Perhaps that's a clue. I only speak English; but, the tag is written in another language (German?). Maybe in another language the "N." is an abreviation that has some meaning which can clear up this confusion?

If not, then, my next best guess is that the seller is new to orchids and doesn't understand the significance of the information that is on the tag. There are plenty of "newbie" vendors out there too. Or, this plant is a seedling from a selfing of the true 'Nakamura' clone and the seller simply forgot to add on the "x self" part, or again, he didn't understand the importance of it being included. I notice that the tag just had enough room for the name. There is no more room to add "x self". Maybe this part was edited out because of space restrictions and the seller didn't realize that by doing that, it changes the vital information about the plant's identity. That's the explanation that I think if most likely. Or, what is worse, he just doesn't give a damn that people will misunderstand what he's selling, as long as they mistakingly think that they are getting something special. There are a lot of dishonest people out there and some of them are orchid vendors.

I once shared seeds from a selfing of my Acacalis cyanea 'Sheila', with a local orchid vendor. The deal was that he gave me a few flasks back and he got to keep the rest and sell them. However, the little schmuck listed the seedlings in his catalogue as Acacalis cyanea 'Sheila'. He didn't put in the "x Self" part! I immediately informed him; but, he just giggled and dismissed my concerns. I persisted; but, I didn't get anywhere. He was a dishonest little creep who did as he liked, regardless of the fact that he was damaging the value of my mother plant, or the fact that he was lying to every one of his customers who thought they were buying a division of the original plant. I was furious because my plant was better than the previously awarded FCC! I took it to a judging and was told so. It did not get pointed that day because the blooms had botritis spotting on them. The judges were very excited about my plant; but, had to tell me to rebloom it and keep more air circulation around it to prevent the spotting. Then, bring it back to judging. So, when I shared the seeds with the schmuck vendor, it had not been awarded yet; but, I wanted to get it awarded one day. However, now with this idiot spreading seedlings far and wide, with the wrong label, it looked like there were pieces of my plant everywhere. In reality, I was the only person with this plant because I had never divided it. There are probably lots of people today still with offspring from my plant that think they have a division of it! The vendor did this purely as a way to make as much money as possible and he just didn't care that he was lying to every one of his customers.

Okay. So, I had a bad experience; but, that doesn't have to mean that's what you've got here. It simply could be that there was not enough room on the label and the seller didn't realise that altering the name by dropping the "x self" was in actuality, a very big deal.


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## Susie11 (Jun 24, 2012)

likespaphs said:


> not to be too personal, but was it fairly expensive? (a yes/no answer is great, no need to spell out the $)
> if it wasn't, that is also an indication that it is not a division of an awarded plant



No, it was not expensive at all. It cost me the equivalent of $20. I understand now about divisions.



John M said:


> First off; it's a VERY beautiful wardii v. album (not aureum). I'd love to be so lucky to have it in my collection! For the price you paid, you got a real winner! This is a case where things went wrong; but, ended up being very right anyway.



Thanks for your detailed reply John M and no, you can't have it!!!! I am glad that you would want to have it though  What attracted me to this paph was that it is an alba. I have seven paphs and they are all albas. The shape of the petals was appealing to me, I liked the downward slope of them so I was disappointed not to have that in this one but I do like it very much. I can't stop looking at it so I am not upset I am just trying to understand more about the awe inspiring, confusing and exciting world of orchids! I think that I get it now although I don't undertsand the x self part? basically this label is misleading so it should be an album then? I will get a book and read up on all of this


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## W. Beetus (Jun 24, 2012)

Very nice looking bloom! I like the green.


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## John M (Jun 25, 2012)

Susie11 said:


> Thanks for your detailed reply John M and no, you can't have it!!!!
> *Oh rats! oke:*
> 
> 
> ...


..


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## Susie11 (Jun 25, 2012)

Many thanks John.


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## Dido (Jun 25, 2012)

Wehere did you buy it, soem vendors use this explenation. 

I have a feeling but not sure.


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## Hakone (Jun 25, 2012)

Yes, it is an album.

N. Nakamura CBR/JOGA is Not Nakamura CBR/JOGA


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## Susie11 (Jun 25, 2012)

Dido, I got this from Schweter in Germany. They import alot of their stock form abroad which they state quite freely. They are reputable almost everyone I know who collects in Europe has bought something from them and many times they are rated as being number one in various forums that I belong to so I don't think there is any attempt to fool or deceive anyone here. Maybe it is just a mistake on their part. I shall have to wait for them to get back to me.


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## Susie11 (Jun 25, 2012)

Hakone said:


> Yes, it is an album.
> 
> N. Nakamura CBR/JOGA is Not Nakamura CBR/JOGA



Thanks for that. It does appear that the tag is wrong then. I shall contact the seller again.


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## Dido (Jun 25, 2012)

Normlay schwerter is correct. I agree, and often they ahve good prices. 
I was thinking so because my tags look the same. 

My wardii album will need a few time more till flwoering I think.


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## Susie11 (Jun 25, 2012)

Well I have another near blooming size wardii alba from Ratcliffe's in England which I thought was coming into bud but it is only another leaf so I too have to wait for that. I have two venustum albas also one of which is of blooming size from Elsner and the other from Ratcliffe's which is only a near blooming sized one the same as the wardii alba. I also have a maudiae alba which is blooming sized but which suffered from root tip burn and has not grown very much because of it. It is healthy apart frolm that though. I want a clair de lune next.


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## Roth (Jun 25, 2012)

N Nakamura and Nakamura are the same plant...

Here is a better picture to explain what is the 'aureum N.Nakamura







as for the imports, there are many mislabeled plants, unless you breed yourself your plants, there is no way to be completely sure as a trader about what you are selling truly. On the other side, your plant is a very good wardii album, Burmese type, and is definitely worth much more than the price paid for...


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## Susie11 (Jun 25, 2012)

OK I understand now about the gold colouration. That is a beauty. I love the colour and shape of it. I love my plant and it was a good price that I paid. I bought another one from Ratcliffe - only a near blooming sized one- for more money than that, £20. So I will be on the look out again for a Nakamura that actually is what it claims!! The more the merrier  Many thanks Roth.


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## Susie11 (Jun 25, 2012)

I have just heard back from the seller and this is what he said:


it is wardii aureum Nakamura x sib, but it is seedling and not devision. So flowers differ as normal when plants are seedling. If you will be shure to get 100% the variety as shown on the photo you must be lucky or by a division plant (which shurley will be much more expensive than 12,95 Euro). We have bought that plants in flask with that name, and yes you are right we forget to name it x sib. So we have changed the name in the shop now. So if you do not like the plant (because you did not get what you have expected) you can send it back to us for free and we will send money back to your account as soon as the plant has arrived.
I hope that explanation will be helpful to you, although my English is not too good.

So there you have it. I will not be sending it back.


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## Justin (Jun 25, 2012)

It's definitely a keeper.


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## John M (Jun 25, 2012)

It's nice that the vendor hasn't tried to play games with you; but, instead, he admitted to the mistake on the label. He explanation makes sense and could certainly be what happened; so, there is no reason now to doubt him.

So, the 'N. Nakamura' and 'Nakamura' are the same. I presume that means the correct clonal name includes the 'N.' and when it is written without the 'N.', that is a mistake.


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## Susie11 (Jun 25, 2012)

I have no idea about the N. I have seen it on Google spelt the same way winning awards at a Japanese show so I would imagine that it is indeed correct to have the N in the title. He is insistant that it is an aureum so I will leave it at that. I figure that he must know better than anyone else since he imports them. I just hope that the other ones that I have brought from him look more like the picture than this one but this one is fine, I really do like it and I am glad that I bought it.

Here is the page that it is one. it seems to be the same picture that Schwerter have used on their website.


http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-TW&u=http://mikiorchid.myweb.hinet.net/my.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dpaph%2Bwardii%2BN%2Baureum%2BN%2BNakamura%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1366%26bih%3D673%26prmd%3Dimvnsfd&sa=X&ei=YKfoT77eJYKX-wbTjuWxAw&ved=0CHAQ7gEwBQ


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## KyushuCalanthe (Jun 25, 2012)

Very likely the "N." is the grower's first name. Here is a link to another plant named "N. Nakamura", in this case P. cono-bellatulum v. album: 

will the real N. Nakamura please stand up?

As you can see, the grower's full name is Naosaburo Nakamura. What is kind of funny is that the name order is backwards for Japan where the family name always is written first. The abbreviation of "N." further confuses it. That is not surprising though since many folks here still view the English way of writing things as backwards, and indeed it is for them.


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## gunny (Jun 25, 2012)

Thank for sharing.


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## Susie11 (Jun 26, 2012)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> Very likely the "N." is the grower's first name. Here is a link to another plant named "N. Nakamura", in this case P. cono-bellatulum v. album:
> 
> will the real N. Nakamura please stand up?
> 
> As you can see, the grower's full name is Naosaburo Nakamura. What is kind of funny is that the name order is backwards for Japan where the family name always is written first. The abbreviation of "N." further confuses it. That is not surprising though since many folks here still view the English way of writing things as backwards, and indeed it is for them.



I would imagine that that is the case here. The seller is adamant that the label was only incorrect as far as the xself went. I have seen many N Nakamura wardii paphs online so that is the most likely explaination.


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## NYEric (Jun 26, 2012)

Roth said:


> I found a photo on the internet here:



Good acquisition Susie. Does anyone know what "MIKI" orchids is on the link she provided? Thanks for info Roth. When i re-opened this thread and saw this photo I immediately thought these were your plants and I wanted to cry from jealousy. :drool:


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## Susie11 (Jun 26, 2012)

For you Eric:

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmiki%2Borchid%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1366%26bih%3D673%26prmd%3Dimvns&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=zh-TW&u=http://mikiorchid.myweb.hinet.net/&usg=ALkJrhirvZc72uFs3UD4tpLI-E-a9-IsqQ


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## hardy (Jun 26, 2012)

John M said:


> I once shared seeds from a selfing of my Acacalis cyanea 'Sheila', with a local orchid vendor. The deal was that he gave me a few flasks back and he got to keep the rest and sell them. However, the little schmuck listed the seedlings in his catalogue as Acacalis cyanea 'Sheila'. He didn't put in the "x Self" part! I immediately informed him; but, he just giggled and dismissed my concerns. I persisted; but, I didn't get anywhere. He was a dishonest little creep who did as he liked, regardless of the fact that he was damaging the value of my mother plant, or the fact that he was lying to every one of his customers who thought they were buying a division of the original plant. I was furious because my plant was better than the previously awarded FCC! I took it to a judging and was told so. It did not get pointed that day because the blooms had botritis spotting on them. The judges were very excited about my plant; but, had to tell me to rebloom it and keep more air circulation around it to prevent the spotting. Then, bring it back to judging. So, when I shared the seeds with the schmuck vendor, it had not been awarded yet; but, I wanted to get it awarded one day. However, now with this idiot spreading seedlings far and wide, with the wrong label, it looked like there were pieces of my plant everywhere. In reality, I was the only person with this plant because I had never divided it. There are probably lots of people today still with offspring from my plant that think they have a division of it! The vendor did this purely as a way to make as much money as possible and he just didn't care that he was lying to every one of his customers.



Awww... that sucks! I feel for your annoyance! 
Have you considered giving a new name to your plant? It's perhaps better to have your plant awarded under a different clonal name...


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## John M (Jun 27, 2012)

Unfortunately Hardy, the plant is gone now. I became ill in the late 90's and it was one of the plants that I lost while I wasn't able to properly care for everything. That's one of my big regrets in life....that this very, very special plant slipped through my fingers. Now, I wish I had chopped a few bits off and sold or traded them to new homes. Then, I'd be able to get a bit back one day. After that spell of being ill and seeing my good plants suffer, I've been much more inclined to divide off bits of my good plants and sell or trade them away.....because you just never know when disaster might strike!


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## NYEric (Jun 28, 2012)

Thanks Susie.


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