# Phalaenopsis violacea var. alba 'Kate' HCC/AOS



## Pete (Jun 21, 2011)

just awarded on friday. ive got a few more from the same group that Id still like to show as well, including some with wider petals.


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## paphioboy (Jun 21, 2011)

Very nice... Kate is one lucky lady to have this named in her honour..


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## Shiva (Jun 21, 2011)

Very nice!


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## SlipperKing (Jun 21, 2011)

Nice one Pete.


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## Fabrice (Jun 21, 2011)

Very nice!

But I think it could have micholitzii in this violacea alba no?

What do you think about that?

Here my violacea alba. It's the same doubt with more micholitzii:


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## likespaphs (Jun 21, 2011)

wow!


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## biothanasis (Jun 21, 2011)

Very nice!!!


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## Ernie (Jun 21, 2011)

I'm interested to see a side by side with micholitzii. My phal species eye isn't as trained as yours, Fabrice. If a pic isn't available, please explain your reasoning so we know what to watch for. Thanks!


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## Sirius (Jun 21, 2011)

I am not as knowledgeable as Fabrice, but I think I know what he is seeing that makes him question it.

To see Phal. micholitzii, go here... http://www.phals.net/micholitzii/index.html

To see Phal. violacea alba, go here... http://www.phals.net/violacea/index.html

As you can see, micholitzii has a hairy, triangular lip. Violacea alba does not.








Phal. micholitzii (left) and Phal. violacea alba (right)

And compare that to the original photo...






And just for kicks, my violacea alba from a few years ago...









I have a violacea alba blooming soon, and if there are some shape variances with the lip, I will wonder too.


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## Pete (Jun 21, 2011)

i do not think it has micholtzii in it. i got several flask from a reputable breeder in taiwan years ago, and sibbed the two best. ive bloomed over 50 of them and have not seen one "hairy lip" or even anything close to it.


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## Sirius (Jun 21, 2011)

Pete,

It is not my intention to upset you, or in any way discredit the quality of the plant you are showing us. It's absolutely gorgeous, and I would be proud to own it. 

I am also not an expert in any way, shape or form on plant genetics or taxonomy.

I will let others with more expertise weigh in here, so that I may learn something in the process. The photos below show what I thought was confusing. I have never seen a violacea lip with wings before.











Phalaenopsis Penang Violacea, the primary hybrid between micholitzii and violacea.

http://www.phals.net/violacea/PenangViolacea.html


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## Pete (Jun 21, 2011)

i am not upset, at all. Im just telling you. i bloomed a ton of them out and didnt see any hairy lips.


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## Pete (Jun 21, 2011)

possibly that single small flare on the side of the lip is just some slight variation? the flower below and to the left do not exhibit this trait


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## Fabrice (Jun 21, 2011)

I just ask me questions.

FOr me, the characteritstic lip for a violacea is exactly the photo shown by Sirius.

On your violacea lip, we can see 2 small "peaks" (or wings like Sirius tell it) on each side what could be from micholitzii (maybe 1, 2 or 3 generations before).

But I'm not categorical and not expert. 

Maybe other specialist on this forum have an idea about that?


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## bigleaf (Jun 21, 2011)

It's my opinion that this flower is not a pure Phal violacea var alba. Many reputable breeders in Taiwan are using Phal Penang Violacea hybrid as Phal violacea var alba. It is no accident that the slight triangular lip reveal the influence of species Phal micholitzii. Breeders prefer to work with Phal Penang Violacea hybrid because the progeny is free flowering - vs a pure Phal violacea var alba which is difficult to cultivate and not as floriferous.


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## koshki (Jun 21, 2011)

They are all so pretty!!!


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## W. Beetus (Jun 21, 2011)

Amazing plant! Great species.


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## Ernie (Jun 21, 2011)

I certainly don't mind a lovely flower on a plant that is easy to bloom, but I definitely like to know the proper name. I'd buy this in a second as a micholitzii/violacea alba hybrid. Shame on anyone for such purposeful deceptions. (If that's the case here)


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## ronan (Jun 21, 2011)

is it possible that the AOS make such mistake? :sob:


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## Ernie (Jun 21, 2011)

ronan said:


> is it possible that the AOS make such mistake? :sob:



In this case, most certainly. If this isn't a violacea alba, the intent by the breeder was obviously to lead folks into thinking it is a violacea. The chances of having a judge at a table that could pick out the small differences between these two species or an intergrade hybrid (minglings back and forth between the two) is very small IMO.


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## NYEric (Jun 21, 2011)

ronan said:


> is it possible that the AOS make such mistake? :sob:



Ahhahhahhahhahahahaah! 

Nice whatever. I just wish mine would bloom!


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## Pete (Jun 22, 2011)

> I just wish mine would bloom!


exactly. thats another thing i was thinking, if it were to be a hybrid helping to induce free flowering, mine only blooms in summer with my other violaceas.


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## Paphman910 (Jun 22, 2011)

That is one nice Phal hybrid! Wish my plant would grow and flower! It is a very reluctant grower and slow in my humid and hot condition!

Paphman910


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## Pete (Jun 22, 2011)

i looked through all my old photos and it seems like i only have one other photo of these. i thought i had more but could not find them.. here is the only photo i come up with, a sibling of the plant in question..


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## Sirius (Jun 22, 2011)

Aren't the siblings of a cross between violacea and micholitzii going to show genetic variance? Wouldn't some have lips like violacea and petals like micholitzii, and some have lips like micholitzii and petals like violacea?

Again, I am working from a limited understanding of orchid genetics, but I am pretty sure not all of the siblings from a hybrid cross bloom out the same.

Pete, I know it must be frustrating when you work so hard on raising and breeding these plants, for people to come in and challenge their identification. I want to reiterate that you have some great looking orchids, whatever their background.


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## Pete (Jun 22, 2011)

its not frustrating. the plant is what it is, and apparently we dont know exactly what that is. nothing i can do about it. your the first one that brought this to my attention. again, i have looked at literally more than 50 of these in bloom in two seperate generations and the first one shown is the *only* one with this trait.


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## Pete (Jun 22, 2011)

also "whatever their background" is complete crap. who the hell wants a plant that nobody knows what it is. if i have a P. sangii and everybody says its a hybrid, but we dont know exactly what it is, then, to me, it is the most useless plant there is. liking plants despite "whatever their background" is for windowsill growers who buy a plant at home depot every now and then. if i just wanted "great looking orchids" and didnt care about their pedigree, i would just buy ten dollar plants at whole foods that have brightly colored flowers and a tag that reads " Phal. exotic hybrid"


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## Pete (Jun 22, 2011)

Paphman-phal violaceas should be THRIVING in hot and humid weather, fyi


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## Sirius (Jun 22, 2011)

Pete said:


> also "whatever their background" is complete crap. who the hell wants a plant that nobody knows what it is. if i have a P. sangii and everybody says its a hybrid, but we dont know exactly what it is, then, to me, it is the most useless plant there is. liking plants despite "whatever their background" is for windowsill growers who buy a plant at home depot every now and then. if i just wanted "great looking orchids" and didnt care about their pedigree, i would just buy ten dollar plants at whole foods that have brightly colored flowers and a tag that reads " Phal. exotic hybrid"



Pete,

Right, obviously not frustrated. 

You know who likes plants that have great flowers, but no identification? Me. And I am pretty sure there are dozens of us heathens floating around the boards, so be careful not to catch our cooties.

I don't care one bit for the AOS, and their judging system. That organization is dying, and good riddance. The fact that I am completely untrained as both a judge, and a taxonomist, and could still spot that something was not quite right about your violacea speaks volumes about the judging of your plant.

In the future, maybe us "windowsill" growers can help you recoup the costs of your flask purchases that don't quite work out.

"Reputable" breeder doesn't mean what it used to I guess?


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## ronan (Jun 22, 2011)

maybe we don't know exactly what it is, but we know what it's not. 
and it's not a primary hybrid...or maybe Sweet is wrong, btw this is what AOS said.


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## Heather (Jun 22, 2011)

Hm…I can sort of see where Pete's coming from here - I do care about the background and breeding of my plants. I am not a fan of unidentified or mis-identified plants, and if I was a breeder, I'd be really pissed about a situation such as this. 

That said, I also completely agree with John's opinion of the AOS and their judging system. Kind of blew my mind that two growers, on a forum dedicated predominantly to SLIPPER orchids, picked up on this and none of the judges in Pete's center did. Talk about a mess, if this is indeed a hybrid!


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## Sirius (Jun 22, 2011)

Heather said:


> Hm…I can sort of see where Pete's coming from here - I do care about the background and breeding of my plants. I am not a fan of unidentified or mis-identified plants, and if I was a breeder, I'd be really pissed about a situation such as this.
> 
> That said, I also completely agree with John's opinion of the AOS and their judging system. Kind of blew my mind that two growers, on a forum dedicated predominantly to SLIPPER orchids, picked up on this and none of the judges in Pete's center did. Talk about a mess, if this is indeed a hybrid!



So I take it you aren't going to be buying any yellow flowered Neofinetia falcata? 

It's fine to be obsessed with breeding and background, but not at the expense of those of us who can still enjoy growing orchids that don't have a manmade moniker. They are after all, just pretty flowers, no matter how hard we try to make them something fancier. In ten years these plants will all probably be dead anyway, and nobody will know they even existed. A little perspective goes a long way.

If you can't enjoy a flower without a name, sell the f-ing thing to someone who will enjoy it, and don't belittle them for it.

Damn, I just can't stop being baited to reply.


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## NYEric (Jun 22, 2011)

Discretion is the better part of valor!


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## Sirius (Jun 22, 2011)

You have every right to be pissed, Pete. You were sold something labeled a species which is probably a hybrid, and it may have been mislabeled intentionally. That is wrong on every level.

The plants are still worth something. I would be happy to own one, so if you decide to sell them in the future, put me down on your contact list.


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## NYEric (Jun 22, 2011)

Oh, me too, and a big multi growth one, in bud, if you please!


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## Pete (Jun 22, 2011)

wow, sirius. i could care less about getting awards. so the judges potentially missed something. perhaps it went to a team without a phal expert. i have no clue, i was not present at judging. the AOS certainly has its flaws but i would argue that you are in the wrong to unfairly judge the society that you are not even affiliated with and likely only know "what you hear" about them..
as far as your cynical reputable breeder comment, i have visited his nursery, spent a lot of time with him and his plants and taiwan, and just contacted him directly and he assured me that in his stock, he did two generations of breeing, before releasing these flask, and then i did another. so thats 3 generations at least where no micholitzii was introduced.
furthermore, i take personal offense at your comment about "n the future, maybe us "windowsill" growers can help you recoup the costs of your flask purchases that don't quite work out."- ill be damned if some random internet personality is going to call me out for some bs that is compelely uncalled for. I go above and beyond to constantly offer high quality, correctly labeled plants at a more than fair price.
maybe in ten years all of your plants will be dead, but not mine. i have many plants in my nursery that are well over ten years old, some closer to 20.
and for the record i wasnt trying to "belittle" the windowsill grower who buys unlabeled plants and doesnt care about pedigree. without these people the orchid industry would be dead. however, orchids are my life. my fun, my work, my research (currently pursuing a PhD) and i actually consider them more than "pretty flowers"


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## Fabrice (Jun 23, 2011)

I didn't think this thread would be "so hot".

Ok Pete, your Taiwan seller tell that but is he sure there was not an hybrid of micholitzii in the mother plants? Are all their seedlings from wild collected plant?

The 2 mains problems in this thread:

-the lip of your awarded plant doesn't match really to the official botanist descriptions 

-the AOS judges didn't see that (they could at least have questions about that) while us, "simple" members of a forum, have immediatly noted this possible problem.
There's a problem no??? We can have questions about competence of those judges, no?


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## Pete (Jun 23, 2011)

of course. i have no idea of the source of those original source plants and i agree that something is up with the lip on the plant in question. all i said was that i bloomed out *lots* of others and never saw this trait on any others, along with other flowers on this same exact plant. 
i just took offense to certain comments made. thats all. i felt that they were a little personal. 
i could care less about the awards, as i have stated. in all honesty a friend wanted to bring it in for judging when he saw it in my greenhouse, while checking on some things when i was off island. also, dont sell this forum short by calling its members "simple"-we have one of the best, most knowledgeable and respectable groups i have come across.


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## labskaus (Jun 23, 2011)

We are having the same discussion over here, and it is frustrating. Even though these things do have really nice flowers, I can't enjoy them as much as ones where I'm sure about the parentage.
Erose lip margins would make me suspicious, and maybe a lip with a pronounced diamond shape. Honestly, I wouldn't know what to do or think if there was just one plant in a large batch that looks faulty.

Don't blame the judges, these differences are quite subtile and hard to notice if you're not familiar with the problem. You can't know everything.


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## Paphman910 (Jun 23, 2011)

Pete said:


> Paphman-phal violaceas should be THRIVING in hot and humid weather, fyi



Thanks Pete!
I am ALWAYS impressed in seeing photos of your collection! You are definately a "MASTER ORCHID GROWER"

Paphman910


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## Heather (Jun 23, 2011)

Pete said:


> Paphman-phal violaceas should be THRIVING in hot and humid weather, fyi



I was thinking the same thing - this is why I cannot grow them - no humidity. :sob:


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## Sirius (Jun 23, 2011)

Pete,

I was trying to be sympathetic to your situation. I never meant to cause you frustration, but you seem intent on getting frustrated with me.



Pete said:


> also "whatever their background" is complete crap. who the hell wants a plant that nobody knows what it is. if i have a P. sangii and everybody says its a hybrid, but we dont know exactly what it is, then, to me, it is the most useless plant there is. liking plants despite "whatever their background" is for windowsill growers who buy a plant at home depot every now and then. if i just wanted "great looking orchids" and didnt care about their pedigree, i would just buy ten dollar plants at whole foods that have brightly colored flowers and a tag that reads " Phal. exotic hybrid"



The response above is the response of a person who wants to belittle someone else. Your intention may not have been to call everyone who owns an unlabeled plant an amateur, but that's exactly what you did. The arrogant tone of your message triggered an angry emotional response in me, but since I am trying to be a calmer, more rational conversationalist on the internet, I will keep my discourse civil. 

Your plant should never have been awarded. Even if there is no micholitzii in the plant at all, the lip is defective on multiple flowers. The lip should be oval shaped with smooth edges. It's that way on every other TRUE violacea, of award quality, on the planet. And yet, yours was awarded even though the lips are triangular, winged, and fringed around the edges. There is no justifiable excuse for this, unless AOS judging allows for a certain amount of defect in the flowers of any given species up for judging. 



Pete said:


> wow, sirius. i could care less about getting awards. so the judges potentially missed something. perhaps it went to a team without a phal expert. i have no clue, i was not present at judging. the AOS certainly has its flaws but i would argue that you are in the wrong to unfairly judge the society that you are not even affiliated with and likely only know "what you hear" about them. as far as your cynical reputable breeder comment, i have visited his nursery, spent a lot of time with him and his plants and taiwan, and just contacted him directly and he assured me that in his stock, he did two generations of breeing, before releasing these flask, and then i did another. so thats 3 generations at least where no micholitzii was introduced.
> furthermore, i take personal offense at your comment about "n the future, maybe us "windowsill" growers can help you recoup the costs of your flask purchases that don't quite work out."- ill be damned if some random internet personality is going to call me out for some bs that is compelely uncalled for. I go above and beyond to constantly offer high quality, correctly labeled plants at a more than fair price.
> maybe in ten years all of your plants will be dead, but not mine. i have many plants in my nursery that are well over ten years old, some closer to 20.
> and for the record i wasnt trying to "belittle" the windowsill grower who buys unlabeled plants and doesnt care about pedigree. without these people the orchid industry would be dead. however, orchids are my life. my fun, my work, my research (currently pursuing a PhD) and i actually consider them more than "pretty flowers"



If one does not care for awards, then why submit a plant for judging? That's rhetorical, no answer is needed. 

I don't align myself with the AOS by choice, because I think they are poorly run, dysfunctional organization. I don't even have to argue my opinion of the matter, because that's exactly what it is; an opinion. If you want to hear the reasons behind my opinion, I can start another thread, but I don't truly believe you care to know what those reasons are, so I will not. Don't let my opinion bother you, because you don't care for awards either, right? 

I was actually offering to buy some of your unknown parentage violacea hybrids since you seem to think they are "the most worthless plants," and I do value them. It was a serious purchase offer, from a person who would truly appreciate a great plant even if it wasn't properly identified. At this point, I think we both know I am not going to be buying anything from you, so this is no longer an issue.

You posted your plant, have been given at least one proper and reputable opinion that the plant has been crossed with micholitzii, and seem to want to vent your frustration at me instead of the breeder who may have fraudulently passed mislabeled plants to you, and the AOS that failed to point out its problems. I wish you congratulations on furthering your education to the highest levels, and good fortune with your future breeding projects.

I am going to go back to tending my orchids. If you choose to continue this discussion with yet more posts venting at me instead of the responsible parties, I can't promise that my newly minted, nice guy personality will respond next time. I am quite unskilled at keeping my temper moderated, so it's probably best to label me as a work in progress, and ignore me if I frustrate you with my inability to properly communicate my feelings.

I hope we all have a better week ahead of us.


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## Fabrice (Jun 23, 2011)

lol

I agree with you Sirius but please, "keep your calm" It's just a question about orchids.

@labskaus: I totally disagree with you. If I understand your point of view, a judge can do mistake and give an AM because he didn't know??? Is it a joke?

The role of a judge, it's precisely to know the standard and botanical description of the judged plant. If not, anyone can become a judge? You're right?
It's not serious.


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## Pete (Jun 23, 2011)

> If one does not care for awards, then why submit a plant for judging? That's rhetorical, no answer is needed.



like ive said, i think multiple times in this thread, i did NOT exhibit the plant for judging, a friend brought it in. i repeat, i dont care about getting awards.


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## ronan (Jun 24, 2011)

Pete said:


> like ive said, i think multiple times in this thread, i did NOT exhibit the plant for judging, a friend brought it in. i repeat, i dont care about getting awards.



this is just a very small part of sirius talk...you'd better apologize to him, than answer to something that were not a question. he tried to be very kind while you were upset...
btw we can't know everything, but we can learn...

there's is a threat in this forum (about the first AQ in thaiwan) where you will find a part of the story on violacea alba/ penang violacea and michael ooi :http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14007&highlight=bruno&page=6 see answer 55.

then simply read the last part of this text (starting with "maybe") from m. ooi:
http://www.toga.org.tw/eng/article.php?id=26

i find it very interesting that in such sowing we still can find 1/50 plants with old parentage caracteristics!


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## labskaus (Jun 24, 2011)

Fabrice said:


> lol
> @labskaus: I totally disagree with you. If I understand your point of view, a judge can do mistake and give an AM because he didn't know??? Is it a joke?
> 
> The role of a judge, it's precisely to know the standard and botanical description of the judged plant. If not, anyone can become a judge? You're right?
> It's not serious.


Fabrice, the judges I know are all humans. Humans make mistakes. That's a fact. A team of jugdes should combine the brains of a bunch of humans to create a pool of extensive orchid knowledge. Since the judges are humans, the combined knowledge can vary in depth and width, that's just another fact.
If you go to visit a large orchid show, would you be able to evaluate every orchids name in the show, check labels and verify names? Paphs yes, Phals yes, but what about Aerangis, Oncidium, Pleurothallis? You might even be able to safely identifiy Phal crosses, but how good are you at Dendrobium or Vanda hybrids?
How much qualification do you ask for to become a judge?
Even a highly qualified professional breeder in a team might overlook that problem. Just because he might be the worlds best Cymbidium breeder he still won't know everything about Vanda hybrids. You can't completely cover everything in a team of judges. And you just can't check the identity of every odd species during a judging session. Not enough trained taxonomists at hand, and the major part of the University library might be missing as well.
The book of Sweet might be there to check the lip shape of a violacea, but then along comes a Stelis... And next a green complex Paph.
Judges are just humans.


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## Pete (Jun 24, 2011)

thanks for the links, ronan.


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## Fabrice (Jun 24, 2011)

labskaus said:


> Fabrice, the judges I know are all humans. Humans make mistakes. That's a fact. A team of jugdes should combine the brains of a bunch of humans to create a pool of extensive orchid knowledge. Since the judges are humans, the combined knowledge can vary in depth and width, that's just another fact.
> If you go to visit a large orchid show, would you be able to evaluate every orchids name in the show, check labels and verify names? Paphs yes, Phals yes, but what about Aerangis, Oncidium, Pleurothallis? You might even be able to safely identifiy Phal crosses, but how good are you at Dendrobium or Vanda hybrids?
> How much qualification do you ask for to become a judge?
> Even a highly qualified professional breeder in a team might overlook that problem. Just because he might be the worlds best Cymbidium breeder he still won't know everything about Vanda hybrids. You can't completely cover everything in a team of judges. And you just can't check the identity of every odd species during a judging session. Not enough trained taxonomists at hand, and the major part of the University library might be missing as well.
> ...



It's your point of view. Not mine.

I agree with you for a rare genus that the team of judges could see just once in lifetime. Yes!
But for a "classical" violacea alba, your explanation is not admissible. In the team, at least one personn (and probably more!) must be able to judge the genus Phalaenopsis, what is a very common genus.
If not, there's really a problem of competence. Or maybe is there business influence for some judgements...?oke:
What is sure, it's not the first mistake of the AOS.


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## bigleaf (Jun 24, 2011)

ronan said:


> is it possible that the AOS make such mistake? :sob:



It's not the first time and will not be the last. It’s disappointing and frustrating that a indigo violacea is to be awarded as integrated hybrid. If that’s the case, then don’t award it as a species. 

Take a look for yourself. 
http://speciesidentificationtaskforce.blogspot.com/search/label/Phalaenopsis

Scroll down to

Phalaenopsis violacea var. coerulea award# 20106004 has been confirmed to be Phalaenopsis violacea (intergrade hybrid) by SITF (Nov 2010). This plant displays characteristics of both P. violacea and P. bellina and it is impossible to tell with the current information available if these characteristics are the result of line breeding or dubious parentage (mixing of P. violacea and P. bellina).

And scroll down further - you will see a Phal bellina alba confirmed. 

If the same committee commented that we cannot easily tell between violacea and bellina - then how is this committee to confirm that this Phal bellina alba stands true ?


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## Ernie (Jun 24, 2011)

I find it interesting that there are several phals in the SITF page linked. The discussion is going towards 'phals are so common, judges should know them in and out', BUT breeders are striving to make species "better" so they use tricks such as we're discussing here to "improve" their flowers. I do believe there are obvious attempts at deception _coupled with_ complications of taxonomic rearrangement (bellina and violacea in the case of Al Pickrel's coerulea flower).


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## bigleaf (Jun 24, 2011)

There are deceptions on some levels but we will never know for sure. Many breeders (backyard hybridizers) in Taiwan do not know better. Specifically, I am referring to a nursery who clones plants. They are great growers and can clone novelty phalaenopsis very well. But the owner probably has elementary school education so I don't expect him to read up on a phalaenopsis species book in English. 
Phal Penang Violacea was registered in 1987 by Ooi. It's been 24 years - and lots of hybrid, generations have been made. We have no way of knowing how many times the original Phal Penang Violacea has been bred back to Phal violacea (and possibly bellina).

I believe that Indigo violacea from Nortons are pure line-bred violacea. Original plants were gifts from Michael Ooi - they appear to be wild collected and it was years later that Phal bellina was reclassified as a new species. 

If you see Phal Samera - breeding of bellina coerulea x violacea indigo - most have very distinct bellina (green, white, indigo) look. There will always be one or two exceptions. But I am certain of the Norton's indigo violacea breeding is because line breed - selective breeding can bring out desirable traits. 

I don't believe the appearance of round vs narrow leaves - and the width of petals would be enough to distinguish two species that are closely related. Phal gigantea can have narrow, or broad leaves. Fragrance is subjective, and based on what? How do we know if Phal bellina that we have in cultivation is not at one time mixed with violacea?

If AOS is to award this indigo violacea to be a hybrid, that creates an inconsistency with previously awarded violacea indigo type - which should all be viewed as hybrid.


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