# kovachii x besseae



## Slipperhead (Mar 9, 2007)

Folks,
HP Norton has a blooming kovachii x besseae at the Triangle Orchid Show in Durham, NC now through Sunday. 

Here is the note I got this morning about it:

"11cm wide and should get a little bigger by tomorrow as it just opened. HP was disappointed in the color as it lacked the intensity of besseae and the purple of Kovachii. But otherwise it shows promise of things to come. He has five more in spike. He's already taken a pollen sac from it and the next generation will be on the way soon"

I will see it later this morning.

Garland


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## lienluu (Mar 9, 2007)

Interesting how dominant besseae is for form on this cross. Whereas Pk was totally dominant for form on the St. Ouen cross.


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## Kyle (Mar 9, 2007)

Very interesting, 

I could be wrong, but I think its besseae x kovachii. If its possible, could you ask HP if thats the case. I thought Peruflora didn't make any hybrids with kovachii carring the pod.

That might explain why besseae dominates so much.

Kyle


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## lienluu (Mar 9, 2007)

Kyle said:


> I could be wrong, but I think its besseae x kovachii...That might explain why besseae dominates so much.



I also wonder if the besseae parent was a diploid or tetraploid.


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## Heather (Mar 9, 2007)

Interesting....I hope someone mentions this on the OGD also. People have been uppity lately about how it is too soon for certain hybrids to be blooming.


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## Greenthings (Mar 9, 2007)

Slipperhead said:


> Folks,
> HP Norton has a blooming kovachii x besseae at the Triangle Orchid Show in Durham, NC now through Sunday.




Garland, who made the cross? I do not remember seeing it offered on either Nueveo Destino's, Peruflora's, or CJM's hybrid lists.

Perhaps it was offered, but I missed it?

Peter


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## Kyle (Mar 9, 2007)

I'll probably get yelled at...

The Peruflora flasks were availalbe about 6 or more months before the others....


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## Kyle (Mar 9, 2007)

Peter it was offered by Peruflora


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## Ron-NY (Mar 9, 2007)

and I see another bud as well on it. Besseae sure is dominent here.


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## Greenthings (Mar 9, 2007)

Kyle said:


> Peter it was offered by Peruflora



Kyle, I am certain you are right.

Where were they offered? Not in Dijon France and not on any 
Peruflora list I saw.


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## Ron-NY (Mar 9, 2007)

Garland, can you see if you can get more pics please. Would love to see a side view as well.


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## Billie (Mar 9, 2007)

*P K cross's coming to the front now but ?*

Yes in this one besseae is the most promindant - but the St Ouens cross I think looks better ? are there any sizes of the flowers of these cross's ?

Please forgive my ignorance but when were these made ?was it from the original plants collected pollen ?to me the time frame is out 

I received a seedling Sept 2001 of EYF 4n Sunset glow X it with a besseae in Dec 2005 and have just now Jan 07 received my flasks of small seedlings it now will take at least 3yrs for the largest of these to flower.How do we have flowering size crosses of PK ?
I'm sorry if this ? is odd but I just don't see how the time frame works . P K must have been worked with earlier ?? 
can someone explain to me please 
Billie


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## paphioland (Mar 9, 2007)

lienluu said:


> Interesting how dominant besseae is for form on this cross. Whereas Pk was totally dominant for form on the St. Ouen cross.




I was thinking the same, esp with the PK as the pod plant. To be honest I was expecting more. Still nice though. Thank you for the Post!


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## littlefrog (Mar 9, 2007)

These are supposedly made with the original 'legal' plant's pollen, yes. So we have not waited for a generation of Pk seedlings to mature and then used them in the hybrid. I don't think it is all that unusual to see a phrag hybrid bloom two years out of flask, but three is probably more likely. Except for big things like caudatum, they take longer.



Billie said:


> Yes in this one besseae is the most promindant - but the St Ouens cross I think looks better ? are there any sizes of the flowers of these cross's ?
> 
> Please forgive my ignorance but when were these made ?was it from the original plants collected pollen ?to me the time frame is out
> 
> ...


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## NYEric (Mar 9, 2007)

Maybe it wasn't made w/ the deeper purple Pk? I hope I get one in spike!


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## NYEric (Mar 9, 2007)

At 11 cm it certainly got the Pk size influence.


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## Ron-NY (Mar 9, 2007)

NYEric said:


> Maybe it wasn't made w/ the deeper purple Pk? I hope I get one in spike!


 It has been discussed that the color of kovachii changes with maturity of the flower. I have seen the pic of that deep purple one and wonder if it appears that deeply colored due to the lighting and not the flower color.


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## Jason Fischer (Mar 9, 2007)

Thanks for the post Garland! 

The one thing I'd like to see is the actual parents used for breeding. We know what kovachii looks like, but I would like to see the quality of besseae used as that will have a major factor on the offspring.


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## gonewild (Mar 9, 2007)

Ron-NY said:


> It has been discussed that the color of kovachii changes with maturity of the flower. I have seen the pic of that deep purple one and wonder if it appears that deeply colored due to the lighting and not the flower color.



From a photographic standpoint if you look closely at Perufloras images of their different colors of kovachii you can see the color balances are not correct. In one image the foliage is blue green which is unnatural, adjust the color balance to make the foliage a natural color and the flower color suddenly looks like the "normal" kovachii color. I think kovachii comes in one color flavor.


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## Leo Schordje (Mar 9, 2007)

Peruflora AND CJM have made this cross, at different times. Seedlings offered by CJM (Manrique) used kovachii as the pod parent. They were available back in Aug 2006 from Piping Rock. 

The flasks imported from CJM in early 2006 were over-grown due to beaurocratic delays. If I heard it right they had been ready to take out of flask as early as July 2005, but red tape held up their export. It is very possible a few seedlings are starting to bloom now, if handled well once out of flask, from what I heard there were a number of rather large seedlings in the oldest of the flasks imported. 

Leo


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## Greenthings (Mar 9, 2007)

Kyle said:


> Very interesting,
> 
> I could be wrong, but I think its besseae x kovachii. If its possible, could you ask HP if thats the case. I thought Peruflora didn't make any hybrids with kovachii carring the pod.
> 
> ...




I agree with you Kyle.

Since you did not answer my previous question, I take it that you have no idea where you saw the cross listed???

I believe I have all Peruflora pricelists ever published and this cross was certainly not offered on any of the early ones.

Where did you see it Kyle?

Anyone else?? 
.


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## gonewild (Mar 9, 2007)

NYEric said:


> At 11 cm it certainly got the Pk size influence.



But Jason's besseae "Rob's Choice" is 11 cm so besseae is already capable of 11 cm. Maybe they used a small besseae as the parent?


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## Ron-NY (Mar 9, 2007)

gonewild said:


> From a photographic standpoint if you look closely at Perufloras images of their different colors of kovachii you can see the color balances are not correct. In one image the foliage is blue green which is unnatural, adjust the color balance to make the foliage a natural color and the flower color suddenly looks like the "normal" kovachii color. I think kovachii comes in one color flavor.


That has been the consensus



gonewild said:


> But Jason's besseae "Rob's Choice" is 11 cm so besseae is already capable of 11 cm. Maybe they used a small besseae as the parent?


 4" is very wide for a besseae, I have never seen one even come close to that. I know Jason reported that and would love to see it in person


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## Leo Schordje (Mar 9, 2007)

besseae seldom does 11 cm on a single growth first bloom seedling. You need a multi-growth besseae to get natural spreads above 10 cm. I have no reason to doubt the hybri. It does not look quite like a besseae.


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## smartie2000 (Mar 9, 2007)

Very interesting there. Be sure to post a image of a fully opened bloom too, thanks


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## gonewild (Mar 9, 2007)

Leo Schordje said:


> besseae seldom does 11 cm on a single growth first bloom seedling. You need a multi-growth besseae to get natural spreads above 10 cm. I have no reason to doubt the hybri. It does not look quite like a besseae.



I was not doubting the hybrid I was just commenting on the size. It just might have been bigger with the kovachii influence had a 'modern" besseae been used to make the hybrid? Or kovachii used as the pod parent? 
(Note... those are questions and not opinions.)


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## Ron-NY (Mar 9, 2007)

Greenthings said:


> I agree with you Kyle.
> 
> Since you did not answer my previous question, I take it that you have no idea where you saw the cross listed???
> 
> ...


I believe both growers have crosses registered with INRENA that haven't come up on their price list either due to poor germination rate or other reasons. Some crosses most likely did not have a large enough quantity to offer commercially or they decided to hold off selling for other reasons. CJM is offering 4 on their list but I know there are more crosses than 4 that were made, including besseae.


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## Kyle (Mar 9, 2007)

Greenthings said:


> I agree with you Kyle.
> 
> Since you did not answer my previous question, I take it that you have no idea where you saw the cross listed???
> 
> ...



No, Peter, I looked and I couldn't find a listing. But I do know they were offered to me last year when I was staying in Lima. I have heard that people have bought dalessandroi x PK. Most likely made with besseae.

But, no Peter, I could not find a published list with that cross on it. Only in personal communication and email.

Kyle


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## NYEric (Mar 9, 2007)

Leo Schordje said:


> Peruflora AND CJM have made this cross, at different times. Seedlings offered by CJM (Manrique) used kovachii as the pod parent. They were available back in Aug 2006 from Piping Rock.


I have never heard about Pk x besseae from Piping Rock. In fact I wondered why they went to a third generation hybrid [St. Ouen] instead of to besseae which would have given a purer color.


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## NYEric (Mar 9, 2007)

In fact I pestered Glen so much I'm sure he would have sold it to me to get rid of me.


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## lienluu (Mar 9, 2007)

I'm not sure about slippers, but I was told that with Cattleyas, breeding a rich lavender to a red just produces washed out reds. Whereas a lavendar to a pink/white produces a deep rich colour. It seems to be the case here as well. St. Ouen is often a more pinkish flower and crossing it with Pk definately produced a richer colour.


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## Jason Fischer (Mar 9, 2007)

gonewild said:


> But Jason's besseae "Rob's Choice" is 11 cm so besseae is already capable of 11 cm. Maybe they used a small besseae as the parent?



I said it peaks between 10 and 11 cm. But it has actually never reached 11 cm to my knowledge. It's 9.7 today, and still has potential to expand (usually it takes 7 to 10 days for this to peak, so it could still grow this time). I've also noticed on years that it is longer across, it can have a smaller petal width, so it is possible that sacrafices are at stake when the NS gets bigger. I should have said it has peaked just above 10 cm to be more realistic. 

Now who wants to see 'Rob's Choice' x kovachii?


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## gonewild (Mar 9, 2007)

Jason Fischer said:


> Now who wants to see 'Rob's Choice' x kovachii?



Me! Please post the picture. oke:


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## NYEric (Mar 9, 2007)

Lien is correct.


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## Hien (Mar 9, 2007)

Kyle said:


> Very interesting,
> 
> I could be wrong, but I think its besseae x kovachii. If its possible, could you ask HP if thats the case. I thought Peruflora didn't make any hybrids with kovachii carring the pod.
> 
> ...


 Kyle, Peruflora did make a cross that I bought in May 2006
cross 783 kovachii Tupac Amaru x dalessandroii,
The mother plant is pk but the pollen is dalessandroii, the dalessandroii flower has very narrow petal, so maybe it is why the result are not big & round, the clone Tupac Amaru is also advertised as smaller size pk with flower spread only 5-1/8 inches (I think peoples are expecting the result from a real chubby besseae w/ the largest pk ?).
Anyway , mine is still in flask. I heard that Mr & Mrs Norton *replate* them just like Chuck & Jason, and the plants grow much faster & better as the result. They also baby them in professional greenhouse.
Perhaps pk hybrids do flower faster than all of us expect (so far there are two hybrids flower already) granted, it takes professionals to get these results. it is still impressive.


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## SlipperFan (Mar 9, 2007)

NYEric said:


> I have never heard about Pk x besseae from Piping Rock. In fact I wondered why they went to a third generation hybrid [St. Ouen] instead of to besseae which would have given a purer color.


I agree -- I've only seen Glenn offer 4 kovachii hybrids, all 3rd generation.

I asked him about the 3rd generation thing, and his response was that primaries were coming. He also said he thought, since kovachii is "round," it would be best crossed with other "round" Phrags.

Leo, what do you know that we don't? (OK, loaded question...)


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## Hien (Mar 9, 2007)

lienluu said:


> I'm not sure about slippers, but I was told that with Cattleyas, breeding a rich lavender to a red just produces washed out reds. Whereas a lavendar to a pink/white produces a deep rich colour. It seems to be the case here as well. St. Ouen is often a more pinkish flower and crossing it with Pk definately produced a richer colour.


 I am very surprised by the result's color.
I imagine something much richer (but this is wrong of me to think in the way of mixing paint color, not genetic)
What you said remind me of the case of the two color dendrobium cross in Hawaii(I believe orange/yellow) that turns out pure greenish white.


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## isaias m rolando (Mar 10, 2007)

Good morning
As I already mentioned: THIS IS THE BEGUINING OF PK ERA. So exciting!
Probably this second PK hybrid was made with PK pollen and PB as the pod plant. I will request to INRENA if they have ever recorded PK carrying seed pods or even flowers at Peruflora's PK plants, they divided their original plants to obtain more individual plants so they could not use them as mother plants, only the pollen...
But anyway it is so great to see this wonderful hybrid
You are totally right Lienluu. This is why CJM used second generation of a well known pink instead of a pure red PB. But colors are coming. These two first hybrids are just the beguining.
It will be very exciting to see a PB "Rob's Choice" X PK. Have you done it Mr Fisher?
And yes, it takes very profesional care to bloom the "fast blooming" hybrids. If plants were grown in Hawaii...that is even a premiun in excellency for obtaining these results.
Hybrids with slow grosth rates will be blooming in two-three more years. Of course they have been done and are already growing in flasks.


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## Jason Fischer (Mar 10, 2007)

If I could legally obtain PK pollen from Peru I would! You can bet it will be one of the first hybrids I make when the PK bloom here.


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## Slipperhead (Mar 10, 2007)

Folks,
I have now seen the plant myself and here are three more photos! The photo of the flower with his name on it and the photo of me and the plant are by Allen Black and you can see more of his stuff at www.ablackorchid.com. He is pretty good at what he does and a heck of a grower of fine phrags and other orchids.

The color is darn close on Allen's photos. Perhaps the real color is a bit "softer" but it is really close. Mr. Norton opted to not have the flower judged as there was a slight color break slightly to the left of center on the dorsal. The color break was a VERY light vertical streak. You can see the color break pretty well in the photo that I took with my cheap point-and-shoot. The color on my photo is pretty close also; perhaps a bit closer than the others.

Mr. Norton told me that he has two other plants of this cross that will be blooming soon. One is in bud and the other is just showing sheath. 

I wish you all could have seen it! It was very special holding this plant! The Triangle Orchid Society put on a nice show in Northgate Mall in Durham, NC!

Garland

P.S. Yes, the internet DOES add 20 pounds!

Nice Photo by Allen Black






kovXbess and Me





My photo showing color break in dorsal.


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## NYEric (Mar 11, 2007)

The Pk shows in how big it is on such a small plant. Thanx for the photos Garland. Jason Put me on the list for that one too!


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## Slipperhead (Mar 11, 2007)

The plant was about half the size I expected! I saw two or three other buds waiting in line! 

Jason, just put me on the payroll. You know how to pay me! 

The hot sake was flowing again Friday at Siam Paragon! Allen and I stopped there after the show to talk about the Pk hybrid and other fine plants we saw at the Durham, NC show! 

Carter & Holmes had a PRIMO roth there in their display. I believe it had 5 buds but only had two fully open and one half way open at the time of the show. They also had a selfing of roth "Chester Hills" in bloom on a sales table as a sample plant with young seedlings of the same selfing. 

Enjoy the rest of your weekend, folks!


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## isaias m rolando (Mar 11, 2007)

Thank you Mr Fisher.

Definetively if we could obtain permits to export just PK pollen, it could slow down the pressure on ilegal collecting of the PK wild population, agree?

I personally think there is still time to protect what is left in the wild.

Perhaps we should all try to teach and convince CITES authorities in Peru, USA and elsewhere to allow the legal growers to be able to export pollen....


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## likespaphs (Mar 11, 2007)

dude... you got to touch it?
ooooo.........


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## lienluu (Mar 11, 2007)

I have to admit, while this flowering is really exciting. I think perhaps this flower is a little ugly and disappointing *gasp*. But this is just my opinion. Sorry!


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## Heather (Mar 11, 2007)

lienluu said:


> I have to admit, while this flowering is really exciting. I think perhaps this flower is a little ugly and disappointing *gasp*. But this is just my opinion. Sorry!



I agree, actually. I'd like to see a few more generations, and some made with kovachii as the mommy, though.


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## Roy (Mar 11, 2007)

I've enjoyed viewing the PK results. I think there are positive advances there in that line of breeding. I think that PK as a parent will be even clearer when the seedlings of PK crossed with the Long Petal Phrags start to bloom. We all know what the flowers are like when PB is used, fabulous. PK with the PB family is almost like line breeding, we could almost guess the results. One thing that hasn't been discussed lately is the "prime conditions" required to grow these PK x seedlings out of flask, we have been shown them growing and what they are in but fertiliser, temp, light ??? how about some of that please.
Roy


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## Heather (Mar 11, 2007)

Roy, if you do a search you will find several threads listing care for both the kovachii species and its' hybrids. 

Here's one on the hybrids:
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1241&highlight=kovachii

and the species:
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1300&highlight=kovachii


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## lienluu (Mar 11, 2007)

Roy said:


> I think that PK as a parent will be even clearer when the seedlings of PK crossed with the Long Petal Phrags start to bloom.



Roy,

You are so right. I am eagerly awaiting the hybrids of Pk x long petals to bloom out, more so than any of these other crosses. I think those will be really super. I think, that direction of Pk breeding will make a huge impact on the Phrag hybridisation world.

Lien


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## TADD (Mar 11, 2007)

I am excited I am possbily going to HP's at the end of the month with a few OS members...


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## Jason Fischer (Mar 11, 2007)

Garland,

You're scaring us with that picture! That must have been before the hot sake!

Isaias,

I think it would be a great idea for other countries to allow export of pollen. If all countries made it easy to export and import orchids in vitro and via pollen, perhaps it would help decrease the de-forestation and black market of jungle plants.


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## NYEric (Mar 11, 2007)

TADD said:


> I am excited I am possbily going to HP's at the end of the month with a few OS members...


Enjoy. If you like Phrags [Yay besseae hybrids!] and Phals you will have a great time.


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## Roy (Mar 11, 2007)

Thanks Heather, should have looked before I asked. Drooling over Phrags was the problem. My excuse & I'm sticking to it.


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## Slipperhead (Mar 11, 2007)

The flower fell off the kov x bess today, the closing day of the show. I'm trying to find out how long it was open. The mall environment wasn't the best on any flowers.

HP told me that he had already used the pollen form this flower to pollinate 6 or so other plants. Knowing him, I'm sure he has crossed it back to one his fine besseaes, among others!

It was fun to see this plant in person! Enjoy your upcoming visits to HP's place. I'm sure you'll see this one and perhaps the other two plants that will be blooming soon!


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## isaias m rolando (Mar 12, 2007)

OK Mr Fisher

Lets work on education with CITES authorities at either side and perhaps we can convince them to allow to export parts, deal?

Have you all a fine week


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## NYEric (Mar 12, 2007)

Slipperhead said:


> HP told me that he had already used the pollen form this flower to pollinate 6 or so other plants. Knowing him, I'm sure he has crossed it back to one his fine besseaes, among others!


That's the good thing about growing where HP is, it's so warm there are almost always blooms on the plants.


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## Slipperhead (Mar 18, 2007)

*ANOTHER kov x besseae*

HP's second kov x bess is in flower. I have a picture of it on my laptop. It is about the same color but shaped more like besseae. I'll try to post it later.


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## isaias m rolando (Mar 18, 2007)

Good morning Garland
Could you please ask Mr HP what they used as pod parent? 
Thanks
Isaias


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## dustywoman (Mar 19, 2007)

I hate to go against the grain, but I was hoping to see something larger, with more of the kovachii influence and presence, color, and size. Not that I have anything against bessese; I love them. I was just hoping for someting more radical, I guess. 

It probably takes patience. I looked up what kovachii hybrid seedlings cost, and decided that I'd better wait! :rollhappy: I would not want to kill one.

OK: I did see some more photos (after I opened my big mouth) and can see that the hybrids have taken on more size. 

With that said, I'm looking forward to seeing kovachii and long petaled Phrag hybrids. Would love to see the color of kovachii combined with a long petaled Phrag!!!


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## slippertalker (Mar 20, 2007)

Following parallel besseae crosses, my guess is that the crosses of kovachii with sargentianum and longifolium will give the most vigor and a sequential flowering habit like Phrag Memoria Dick Clements and Phrag Eric Young. The following backcrosses to kovachii will be spectacular....
Whether kovachii is dominant in it's crosses still remains to be seen, but it sure will be interesting to see the results.


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## isaias m rolando (Mar 21, 2007)

We just have to wait to see the results. Those crosses with Eric Young ( both regular and with flava forms) and Mem Dick Clements have been done and REGISTERED by CJM in Peru. No mistakes in the lab here...
Have a good day


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## NYEric (Mar 21, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> We just have to wait to see the results. Those crosses with Eric Young ( both regular and with flava forms) and Mem Dick Clements have been done and REGISTERED by CJM in Peru. No mistakes in the lab here...
> Have a good day


Do you know whom the importer to the USA will be?


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## isaias m rolando (Mar 21, 2007)

CJM orchids will export to Piping Rock in the US and Peter C in Canada, I presume. Perhaps he will be open to export to other people directly. I do not know what the terms for his agreement with this North Americans will be in the future. Just contact him. I understand he will open a new web site soon.


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## Kyle (Mar 21, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> We just have to wait to see the results. Those crosses with Eric Young ( both regular and with flava forms) and Mem Dick Clements have been done and REGISTERED by CJM in Peru. No mistakes in the lab here...
> Have a good day



How can the plants be registered if they haven't bloomed? 

And is it possible to register a plant (cross/hybrid) if the cross you made didn't bloom and the plant that bloomed wasn't in your possesion?

Kyle


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## Ron-NY (Mar 21, 2007)

Kyle said:


> How can the plants be registered if they haven't bloomed?
> 
> And is it possible to register a plant (cross/hybrid) if the cross you made didn't bloom and the plant that bloomed wasn't in your possesion?
> 
> Kyle


 I assume Isaias means that the cross was registered with INRENA for they can't be registered with RHS until they bloom. I believe INRENA has been keeping track of this info.


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## isaias m rolando (Mar 22, 2007)

Of course I meant INRENA. That is what counts in Peru for the people working legally, and to export those flasks later. You need to register first the Phrags Hybryds (mother plants) you have imported and then the flasks with PK you plane to export a year ahead in time. INRENA has what they call PLAN DE PORDUCCION in the lab. Only registered flasks can be exported. CJM Orchids is, according to INRENA, the only Orchid exporter that has reported the importation of all his phrag hybrids. There are no reocrds of other orchid exporter about his importation of any phrags.
Perhaps some people still do not want to understand what to work legal in Peru means...that is why there so many "mistakes in labs" and "letters of appologies"...
Have a good night


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## gonewild (Mar 22, 2007)

Isaias, Do you know how many hybrids CJM has registered with INRENA?


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## isaias m rolando (Mar 22, 2007)

I can ask Mr Manrique...
I will be returning to Peru tomorrow. I am now at the III International Orchid Conservation Conference in San Jose de Costa Rica. We will finish our participation here tonight.
We have reported here our data about Phrag besseae and PK illegal hybrids already in the market.


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## isaias m rolando (Mar 22, 2007)

I believe Mr Manrique is in DC. Attending meetings with CITES authorities in Washington DC. Perhaps he could be returning to the country by Saturday.


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## NYEric (Mar 22, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> CJM orchids will export to Piping Rock in the US and Peter C in Canada, I presume. Perhaps he will be open to export to other people directly. I do not know what the terms for his agreement with this North Americans will be in the future. Just contact him.


Thanx for the info, I have got to start bothering Glen now so he can get me some...


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## gonewild (Mar 22, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> We have reported here our data about Phrag besseae and PK illegal hybrids already in the market.



Can you share some of that data with us?


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## Ron-NY (Mar 22, 2007)

gonewild said:


> Isaias, Do you know how many hybrids CJM has registered with INRENA?


I believe the number I heard from Alfredo last fall was either 12 or 14


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## NYEric (Mar 22, 2007)

When I rec'd my Pk x besseae it had the IRENA paperwork included. It reminded me of a WW2 movie, "Your Papers please!".


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## gonewild (Mar 22, 2007)

NYEric said:


> When I rec'd my Pk x besseae it had the IRENA paperwork included. It reminded me of a WW2 movie, "Your Papers please!".



What was his name? The guy on Hogan's Heros that made all their documents? Dunkirk or something? I wonder if he has gone into making kovachii papers? :clap:


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## Hien (Mar 22, 2007)

Ron-NY said:


> I believe the number I heard from Alfredo last fall was either 12 or 14


 Should we start putting away money for the new crosses yet?


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## gonewild (Mar 22, 2007)

Hien said:


> Should we start putting away money for the new crosses yet?


Put money away but don't hold your breath.


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## Leo Schordje (Mar 22, 2007)

Alfredo Manrique will have seedlings in 2.5 inch pots available at his talk 4/28 & 4/29 in Chicago. These will be the 4 hybrids Piping Rock has had listed. Go to http://www.pipingrockorchids.com/KBindex.htm
If you would like to hear Alfredo speak go to www.iosoc.com for the Illinois Orchid Society website to register for the conference in order to hear Alfredo speak. The lectures are closed to the public, show registrants only may attend. Cost is only $60 through 3/31, then rises to $75 on 4/1
You can then ask Alfredo himself how many more hybrids he has coming along !!!
Leo


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## Hien (Mar 22, 2007)

gonewild said:


> Put money away but don't hold your breath.



 You mean to say : the new crosses will be breathtaking


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## gonewild (Mar 22, 2007)

Hien said:


> You mean to say : the new crosses will be breathtaking



Well that is true but not what I meant to say. I meant you may turn blue impatiently waiting to spend your money.


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## NYEric (Mar 23, 2007)

gonewild said:


> Well that is true but not what I meant to say. I meant you may turn blue impatiently waiting to spend your money.


Not really, just have a realistic idea of how soon the US grower/vendors are willing to release the plants after they get them from the hybridizer 12-15 months seems to be the time on the first crosses.


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## isaias m rolando (Apr 4, 2007)

It is so sad to see nobody cares about illegal PK hybrids in the market.
INRENA-Peru-CITES has no record of any Phrag kovachii X besseae exported by Peruflora. So how do you explain all those hybrids in the market in the USA? And people buying from non registered plants sources out of Peru...
conclusions: nobody cares anymore.
sweet dreams orchids fans, sweet dreams....


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## gonewild (Apr 4, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> It is so sad to see nobody cares about illegal PK hybrids in the market.
> INRENA-Peru-CITES has no record of any Phrag kovachii X besseae exported by Peruflora. So how do you explain all those hybrids in the market in the USA? And people buying from non registered plants sources out of Peru...
> conclusions: nobody cares anymore.
> sweet dreams orchids fans, sweet dreams....



Isaias, Many people here care.
Please send us a list of all the INRENA registered hybrids. How are people supposed to know what hybrids INRENA has registered and approved?


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## Hien (Apr 5, 2007)

gonewild said:


> Isaias, Many people here care.
> Please send us a list of all the INRENA registered hybrids. How are people supposed to know what hybrids INRENA has registered and approved?


 Lance, you are too nice.
I follow this thread for a while, and see how Isaias is so angry with all of us. I want say something about the attitude, but another person advices me not to get involve and get dragged into the mud throwing.
Sorry to say that we need not to apologize to anyone nor tell anybody whether we care or not.
This sentiment of "How bad the capitalists corrupt & take advantage of the poor innocent natives" ....
As far as I see it, the Peruvian government permitted three peoples to collect & propagate the pk (how the heck, do we suppose to know the mysterious way of the peruvians conduct the business or run the country, we don't even know the mysterious way our goverment running our own country, for God ....... sake) We trust the peruvian sellers to be honest.
Now we should feel guilty that we buy from those 3 peoples licensed by the Peruvian government?* WE ASSUMED THAT THEIR CATALOGS AND ADVERTISES IMPLYING THEIR APPROVED STATUS. IF NOT THE PERUVIAN SHOULD DEAL WITH THE LOCAL SOURCE*,
I doubt if any buyers in the USA or Canada has access to any other sources other than CJM & Peruflora ( since Moore hasn't offered anything yet)


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## isaias m rolando (Apr 5, 2007)

No HIEN!
This is not an issue "who is the bad guy". I can not be angry with "all of you". My reason to write here is to stop pressure on the wild population of PK. This is all about. I have been there last week and can inform you that there is still a good number of plants in the habitat. We would like to protect this wild population...WITH YOUR HELP.
It does not help to put coments like yours HIEN, trying to "get dragged into the mud throwing". I am only exposing facts. If you feel ofended, very sorry and my best appologies. But how can we deal with the fact that there is a bussines in the market that were CONVICTED by the US department of Justice (THIS IS NOT PERUVIAN AUTHORITIES) and that are selling illegaly exported plants in the US, or did they made the hybrid in the US with illegal PK in some nurseries?
I have followed and participated in the PK SAGA since the beguining. We knew about the existance of PK since 1990. The year they finally discovered I was "out of bussines"....my late wife was dying after a brain cancer and all 2001 and 2002 I dedicated my time (fulltime) trying to cure my wife. She finally passed away on August 30...and I took notice of PK reports late in October 2002. I organized and coordinated the first collecting and scientific PK expedition with Harold K and have all the records of what have been done with PK, including photographs and videos.
So, is this PK saga that dificult to understand? Waht is wrong with some of you guys? Don't you see there are comercial people trying to use us for their comercial purposes? Trying to denie what is of public domain? Like reports of the US department of Justice?
Please, try to be nice with a great, wonderful orchid. Help us to keep PK in a safe wild population. I am sure we all can do it...please, show some respect with NATURE, not a country, not a person, but the spectacular orchids in this planet....
Have a good day


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## Hien (Apr 5, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> No HIEN!
> This is not an issue "who is the bad guy". I can not be angry with "all of you". My reason to write here is to stop pressure on the wild population of PK. This is all about. I have been there last week and can inform you that there is still a good number of plants in the habitat. We would like to protect this wild population...WITH YOUR HELP.
> It does not help to put coments like yours HIEN, trying to "get dragged into the mud throwing". I am only exposing facts. If you feel ofended, very sorry and my best appologies. But how can we deal with the fact that there is a bussines in the market that were CONVICTED by the US department of Justice (THIS IS NOT PERUVIAN AUTHORITIES) and that are selling illegaly exported plants in the US, or did they made the hybrid in the US with illegal PK in some nurseries?
> I have followed and participated in the PK SAGA since the beguining. We knew about the existance of PK since 1990. The year they finally discovered I was "out of bussines"....my late wife was dying after a brain cancer and all 2001 and 2002 I dedicated my time (fulltime) trying to cure my wife. She finally passed away on August 30...and I took notice of PK reports late in October 2002. I organized and coordinated the first collecting and scientific PK expedition with Harold K and have all the records of what have been done with PK, including photographs and videos.
> ...


 Did you say that the plants we bought from the Peruvian approved sources are not a guarantee of their legitimacy?
I have been assuming all along that as long as the flasks came from any one of the three source is OK.
I hope it is just a misinterpretation about the pk x besseae hybrid. Because Peruflora does have a cross between pk x dalessandroi (which is called besseae by some). Do they register w/ the Peruvian government a pk x dalessandroi cross?


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## isaias m rolando (Apr 6, 2007)

No HIEN
Please do not put words in my writting that I have never said.
What I am saying is that there are plants in the market with NO REGISTRATION at INRENA. NO CITES DOCS. Meaning that they were made with illegal pollen out of Peru or that the flasks or seedlings were exported agaisnt CITES regulations.

CJM has ALL his Phrag hybrids (mother plants) importation cleared and registered at INRENA and all his hybrids with PK and flasks in the past and future had or will have CITES documents. Is this the case of the nice hybrids (PK X besseae) shown in this forum? It is sad to recognize that there are no records of Peruflora exporting these flasks or seedlings, or any registration of this particular crosse. 
As for permit N 3 (Mr Lee Moore), he has not yet registered any hybrids or PK flasks to export. I have pictures of his plants showing seed pods last year. So I pressume he will be offering flasks soon.
All this information is of public domain. So if you want to know more just enter Inrena web site. Also you can visit now CJM web site to get all info you want.
Again all we want here is to reduce pressure on wild PK population. If I could change CITES regulations I will recomend INRENA themselves to export just PK pollen and to anyone interested to invest in PK hybrids to come here and set a faciltiy to export the wonderfull hybrids they could have in the future.

Have you all a good weekend.


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## lienluu (Apr 6, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> All this information is of public domain. So if you want to know more just enter Inrena web site.



http://www.inrena.gob.pe/index_inicio.htm

Please help direct us to where exactly that information is. I don't read spanish so it's difficult for me to navigate.

Thanks!


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## isaias m rolando (Apr 6, 2007)

Lienluu
Thank you for your interest agin in this saga.
Could you please assit me again in posting more pics of PK habitat?
I have very interesting pics...


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## lienluu (Apr 6, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> Lienluu
> Thank you for your interest agin in this saga.
> Could you please assit me again in posting more pics of PK habitat?
> I have very interesting pics...




You can email the photos to me at [email protected] and i can post them for you.

Lien


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## NYEric (Apr 6, 2007)

That's pretty risky putting that info out there Mr. Lien!


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## Hien (Apr 6, 2007)

Isaias.

Thank you for the clarification.
I think I kind of having a little bit more grasp on the complication of the issue now.
I always imagine since Peru is the country with so many phrag species naturally, they do not need to import any plants from outside to breed.
But I guess I was wrong.
I do wish the site has an english feature so everybody would understand.


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## isaias m rolando (Apr 7, 2007)

Yes, Hien
Peru, as any other country under CITES has to follow these international rules. As you all know all phrags are in Appendix I or II (hybrids), so we need CITES permits to enter any phrag hybrid as any other country.
Same in the US, it is required to have CITES import papers to have PK x besseae as an appendix II orchid hybrid. Be sure the comercial grower offering those plants has a copy of the CITES docs when you purchase your plants.
Have a good weekend


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## Kyle (Apr 7, 2007)

I don't know about the USA, but in Canada, we import flasks with phytosanitary only. Thats why we have all the new paph species (hanginaum, helenea, vietnamense etc.)

Kovachii hybrids could be in Canada without any sort of CITES documents with them. Still legal. Just posting FYI.

Kyle


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## wonderlen3000 (Apr 7, 2007)

wow. looks like besseae in steroids ...lol


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## Greenthings (Apr 8, 2007)

Kyle said:


> I don't know about the USA, but in Canada, we import flasks with phytosanitary only. Thats why we have all the new paph species (hanginaum, helenea, vietnamense etc.)
> 
> Kovachii hybrids could be in Canada without any sort of CITES documents with them. Still legal. Just posting FYI.
> 
> Kyle



You are correct Kyle. Here is what the CITES Appendices say:

(Appendix-I species, seedling or tissue cultures obtained in vitro, in solid or liquid media, transported in sterile containers are not subject to the provisions of the Convention) 

However, this is only valid for seedlings obtained from legally collected parent species. (For Pk in Peru there are three nurseries with legally collected parent plants)

The phytosanitary requirements are not CITES regulated and may differ from country to country. Canada does require Phytosanitary for imported flasks with one exception: Importing from the Continental USA, 1-50 plants IN/OUT FLASK personally carried;for personal use, bare root. These do not require Phytosanitary documents, unless they are from designated US Oak Death Areas. Listed by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency.


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## gonewild (Apr 9, 2007)

In Peru, INRENA does not issue phytosanitary certificates. The phyto certificate is issued by SENASA. SENASA won't (or should not) issue the certificate without paperwork from INRENA to show the plants were produced legally. 

If SENASA issues a phyto certificate the USDA will assume the plants are legal for plants in flask. Even for plants out of flask unless the USDA inspector has a reason to believe differently, they will assume the shipment is legally nursery grown based on the SENASA paperwork.

At least this has been my experience with plants other than orchids.


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## NYEric (Apr 9, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> It is so sad to see nobody cares about illegal PK hybrids in the market.
> INRENA-Peru-CITES has no record of any Phrag kovachii X besseae exported by Peruflora. So how do you explain all those hybrids in the market in the USA? And people buying from non registered plants sources out of Peru...
> conclusions: nobody cares anymore.
> sweet dreams orchids fans, sweet dreams....


OK Isaias, I actually dug out the cert. documents on the Pk x besseae from Orchidview and it lists Peruanino S.C.R.L. as the exporter. so how is this an illegal hybrid? Or did I miss something?


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## isaias m rolando (Apr 9, 2007)

NYEric, Ask Peter C about those papers. He will tell you....


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## Kyle (Apr 9, 2007)

Greenthings said:


> However, this is only valid for seedlings obtained from legally collected parent species. (For Pk in Peru there are three nurseries with legally collected parent plants)



If I understand you correctly Peter, That is the little twist that the Americans have put on CITES in regards to flasks. In Canada, the authorities don't care about the origin of the parents of the plants in flask.

Kyle


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## Greenthings (Apr 9, 2007)

Kyle said:


> If I understand you correctly Peter, That is the little twist that the Americans have put on CITES in regards to flasks. In Canada, the authorities don't care about the origin of the parents of the plants in flask.
> 
> Kyle




No it is not a twist put on the CITES rules by the Americans. 

Though the annotation in App I gives the impression that all App I flasks are exempt, it failed to say that this is only true when the seedlings have been propagated from legal stock, and propagated under the CITES definition of Artificial Propagation.

In regards to Pk, this has been taken care of by INRENA, who issued licenses to three nurseries who have to work within the CITES definition of Artificial Propagation. INRENA does inspect these nurseries' Pk stock plants, laboratories, Pk flasks etc. 

Thus if you obtain Pk flasks from the INRENA licensed nurseries CJM, Peruflora and (Nuevo Destino, not yet offering Pk fasks.) that hidden AP definition has already been looked after. Thus basically, one only needs a Phytosanitary certificate, which are issued by SENASA (Ministry of Agriculture) but only after INRENA (Institute of Natural Resources) assures them that the seedlings are legally propagated. 

One could say then that a Pk flask Phytosanitary certificate from Senasa already guarantees that the AP definition was taken care of. It is like a two in one document in the case of App I flasks

I believe some people are working with the CITES Secretariat to try to get them to correct the annotation in the Appendices.

If you like to read up on this, go to the CITES website at (www.cites.org) Under Resolutions, you will find the excemption in CITES Resolution Conf. 11.11 (Rev. CoP13), 

How Importing Country authorities go about enforcing the rules; what documents they wish to see, varies from country to country. 

Sorry for the long winded explanation.


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