# Species Versus Hybrids?



## Carkin (Nov 20, 2012)

Are you a species person or a hybrid person? And why?

Sorry!!! I put my last two posts in the wrong place...I just realized my mistakes, this is supposed to be for photos!!! I hope that it can be moved!


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## nikv (Nov 20, 2012)

I'm both. I love the idea of growing species. I'm doing my part to help preserve species. But there are so many beautiful hybrids to choose from too. And sometimes the hybrids are easier to grow than pure species. Bottom line is that I grow what I like.


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## likespaphs (Nov 20, 2012)

i love species and had been only a species grower
growing some hybrids too now as they bloom more readily in my house and are generally easier to grow and i want blooms!


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## paworsport (Nov 20, 2012)

I'm both too, I love species primary and complex paphs beauty is everywhere in nature and paph !


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## Carkin (Nov 20, 2012)

I love them both too. I find it interesting though that some people really seem to commit to species.

The species that I am loving right now is malipoense. But I seriously doubt my ability to grow one so I have got two crosses. Mem. Larry Heuer (malipoense x emersonii) and malipoense x Amagumo. I hope that they have a lot of the maliposene look.

Thank you for your replies...very interesting!!!


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## gotsomerice (Nov 20, 2012)

95% species for me.


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## Carkin (Nov 20, 2012)

gotsomerice said:


> 95% species for me.



What is it that you love about species?


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## gotsomerice (Nov 20, 2012)

Just that I prefer nature made than man made. There is something "raw" and "primal" about species.


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## lipelgas (Nov 20, 2012)

both, but complex hybrids are not my favorites. they are too...artifical.


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## biothanasis (Nov 20, 2012)

I am mostly into species too. I like some hybrids, but most of the hybrids do not seem attractive enough to my eyes, unless they keep characteristics of their species parents.


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## cnycharles (Nov 20, 2012)

I concur with the opinions of the last three posters for the same reasons

also, there are only so many species in any genera.. if you wanted to collect all of a particular genera there's a mostly definite list (within general reason). with hybrids, they are endless and you couldn't collect them all (nor have space for them)

a good friend not on the forum used to collect many, then his wife badgered him until he threw everything out (years ago). when she changed her mind and he got back into orchids, he decided to just stick with fragrant orchids


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## The Orchid Boy (Nov 20, 2012)

I have mostly species, 1 hybrid. As others have said, I like them "nature made not man made". Species are like you would find in the wild and I love to plant native and species perrenials in my yard. There are some neat hybrids though, like P. Ching Hua Dancer.


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## Clark (Nov 20, 2012)

Both.
Looking at pics- many species.
Growing- whatever is easier.

When plants are outside, all is good.
Winter, not so good.


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## Justin (Nov 20, 2012)

95% species...but there are definitely good hybrids out there worth growing.


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## Paph_LdyMacBeth (Nov 20, 2012)

I love species because I feel like I am owning something naturally magical  
I wouldn't turn down a hybrid if its something I like though.


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## chrismende (Nov 20, 2012)

I love both! I constantly buy new species. But having "the bug" I buy hybrids constantly too! Hooray for orchid addiction!


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## Carkin (Nov 20, 2012)

VERY good answers! I am loving the expression "naturally magical".


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## Carkin (Nov 20, 2012)

Thank you for putting this thread in the right spot!


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## SlipperFan (Nov 20, 2012)

I have more hybrids than species. Species intrigue me, though, because they are "real" having been around so long. However, I like the variety, shape and colors available in hybrids, especially primary hybrids.


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## wjs2nd (Nov 20, 2012)

I love species. However, I mostly have hybrid paphs. Of course it's easy to have some nice hybrids when you live an hour from OL and Deerwood (Ross-paphreek). I'm getting into old hybrids. I like the history before them!


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 20, 2012)

I'm both. When it comes to planned purchases, it's usually species, as I would like to have as complete a collection of paphs as possible. Impulse and spur of the moment purchases, I usually get hybrids. I love all paph hybrids, although I don't find brachy hybrids to add much or anything over the species. Not that big on cochlo hybrids, but I'm not as into cochlo species either. With multi's, same as brachy's...hybrids may offer an advantage in ease of bloom, but I don't see it in the flowers..most of the time. (I still really want a Chiu hui Dancer...)
For phrags, my attitude is species only...1 besseae hybrid is a must, but all you need, as they are all variations on the same theme....and I'm very unimpressed by kovachii hybrids.


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## NYEric (Nov 20, 2012)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> For phrags, my attitude is species only...1 besseae hybrid is a must, but all you need, as they are all variations on the same theme....and I'm very unimpressed by kovachii hybrids.






For slipper orchids, except Cyps, I like both but prefer hybrids. Nothing in cyps beats the Queen, reginae! I like the combinations of the characteristics from the parents, stripes with bright white round pouches, etc. I also collect flavum and album slippers. In non-slipper orchids, except Tolumnias, I prefer straight species. Most crosses dont do much for me. BTW, I dont grow Catts, which are heavily hybridized, so that affects my prevalences.


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## abax (Nov 21, 2012)

I'll grow any Paph. I can get my greedy little hands on. :>)


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## Stone (Nov 21, 2012)

Absolutely and utterly species only for me. (natural hybrids are also interesting) Man made hybrids.....well you may as well grow petunias:evil:


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## Leo Schordje (Nov 21, 2012)

I like both. 
The species have a 'charm' to them. 
Many hybrids are truly beautiful. Primary and near primary hybrids can be very very nice, especially Paph hybrids like Julius, and others that combine large formal shape of a rothschildianum with the color from lowii. 

a good award quality clone of the complex Paphs is truly the epitome of the breeders art. 

One thing I like to do with species, is MAKE HYBRIDS. I'm always thinking what would look good crossed to what. And I definitely believe that not all hybrids are good. I have made one or two crosses that single handed set Paph breeding back 50 years.


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## keithrs (Nov 21, 2012)

I grow species because I'm truly intrigued by nature. In the words of Harry Phillips ......"It be sad to only read and hear about them in books and not in real life", Plus I have very little room to grow. Don't get me wrong... I do have a few hybrid from the early day of growing.


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## quiltergal (Nov 21, 2012)

I'm not a particular fan of "Frankenflowers". I am probably 60% species and the rest primaries in Paphs. I do have two complex hybrids just to round out the collection, but they aren't my favorites. I'm even pickier with Phals. In that genre I'm 95% species with only a few hybrids.


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## eggshells (Nov 21, 2012)

I grow 97% species and 3% hybrid. Dont even know why that 3% is in there. Like everyone, I find that species have that charm that is hard to explain. I think its the challenge of trying to grow something outside of their environment. Something like having and caring for a pet.


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## Rick (Nov 21, 2012)

I have about 95% species. The 5% are usually gifted to me, and I save them as future presents or something I can more easily put on the kitchen table for my wife to enjoy.

I fantasize about being in the jungles when I'm in the gh with all the species blooms.

With 20,000-30,000 species with such amazing diversity of form/color, it's reall hard for me to get excited about hybrids.


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## emydura (Nov 22, 2012)

I grow both hybrids and species. Most of the hybrids I grow are the multi-florals. There aren't a lot of multi species so I would find it a bit limiting just growing the species. 

I don't understand the argument that the species are more attractive than the hybrids. Complex hybrids aside, I would think most people would not be able to distinguish between a hybrid and a species. In fact I think the hybrids are generally more attractive than the species. Especially the roth hybrids with the various multi species. Many of the multi species have some really nice unique traits but they also come with some flaws - small flowers, poor dorsals, narrow dorsals, poor petal stance etc. The roth parent always seems to fix that up so you end up with the best of both worlds.

I look forward to the day when we have sanderianum hybrids with metre long petals but much better form.


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## Carkin (Nov 22, 2012)

Yes, I didn't fully understand the commitment that some people have to species either. That is why I wanted to pose the question. In order to understand the reasons why people gravitate one way or the other for their collections.

The answers I have got have been outstanding! :clap: I feel much more enlightened now!!!

Thank you for talking the time to share your opinions!


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## likespaphs (Nov 22, 2012)

emydura said:


> ...I don't understand the argument that the species are more attractive than the hybrids....




beauty is in the eye of the beholder


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## emydura (Nov 22, 2012)

likespaphs said:


> beauty is in the eye of the beholder



Very true. But primary hybrids and the like are very little removed from the species. So there isn't a great deal of difference. I think the people who prefer species do so because they are opposed to hybridising or just prefer to grow things that occur in the wild. I just don't think the argument that species are more attractive than hybrids holds (unless you are referring to the more complex hybrids). In fact, I think it is non-sensical. The argument for favouring species is more a philosophical argument, not one of beauty.


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## Rick (Nov 22, 2012)

emydura said:


> I just don't think the argument that species are more attractive than hybrids holds (unless you are referring to the more complex hybrids).



For me (as a species snob) it's not a matter of more or less attractive, but the blending of traits smears (not in a derogatory sense) the "beauty" of the distinctive diversity of the species. After a while it all starts to look the same, and sensory overload sets in.

Kind of like going to a dog pound and seeing the myriad of shapes/forms/colors of man's best friend, versus going to a zoo and seeing all kinds of amazing stuff that humans had little to do in shaping.

Maybe I'm just reinforcing your argument that the appreciation is not over the absolute "beauty" of the object over a different level of appreciation for the artist who created the work.


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## Mocchaccino (Nov 22, 2012)

My intention is to collect solely species but I do have a few hybrids in possession. Because I was cheated by dishonest traders who claimed those hybrids to be species. 

I do not love species more. Rather it's a rational way, at least to me, to gain experience with slippers. Starting with species gives you reference on how they actually grow on natural habitat. After learning from silly mistakes or have encountered terrible losses then I would go deep down to rare species or even awarded hybrids. 

For now, species state!


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## orchidmaven (Nov 22, 2012)

This question to me is like asking if you like red wine or white wine? What about champagne or tequila, rum or gin? 

It's like the answer, "I only grow white Paphs." What a boring collection to have only species or white paphs. I love orchid in all their diversity. Species are a starting point for me and the hybrids are much more interesting than the stuff they are made of. 

But then again, if we all liked the same thing we would all be driving red cars. What a truly boring lot we would all be then!
Love the species, but the hybrids are much more interesting especially when you have a new hybrid blooming on the bench in all its variation and the more the better!


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## The Orchid Boy (Nov 22, 2012)

I'm hoping to get lots more species orchids soon so my noid phals, paph hybrids, and potinaras are going to have to find new homes to make room for 3 hybrid orchids and 7 species orchids. I wish I had more room for hybrids but I don't. I also like growing species because someday my plant just might help "save the species".

@Orchidmaven, I hate to be argumentive but having a collection of just species is not boring. There is so much variety in just the paph species. All colors, sizes, and shapes of flowers and mottled and green leaves and even different types of mottled leaves. Species paphs don't have one overall look or similarity. Compare P. delenatii and P. sanderianum. Compare P. venustum and P. micranthum. But like you said, it would be a boring world if we all liked the same things and had the same opinions.


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## NYEric (Nov 23, 2012)

The reality of having a "save the species" plant is rare and not very likely. I only know one person who has been in a similar situation. I prefer hybrid plants for the diversity and improvements over the species such as vigor, etc.


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## gotsomerice (Nov 23, 2012)

Space is also my factor. I only have limited space so I do not wasted it for mass-produce Phals. Only species can stay on my growing benches! Lol


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## quiltergal (Nov 23, 2012)

I'm not against hybrids. I just don't enjoy plants that have been so over hybridized that you can't tell what species lurks in their distant past. I really do like primaries because you can usually see both parents in the flowers.


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## cnycharles (Nov 23, 2012)

at times people who like species have had some reference in their past to nature, perennials and native plants, or have spent lots of time outdoors in their youth (like me). others who may not have had any background in plants and species etc from outdoors or other experiences just like what they see looks 'nice'. many species don't necessarily look 'pretty', but many who grow botanical plants/orchids like them because of their diversity and such. hybridizing many of the botanical orchids wouldn't really be an improvement on many of them. people who have been used to seeing things as natural species and such have a comfort level with plants in that manner and look to acquire orchids in the same fashion

since someone mentioned alcohol in reference to 'different things/types', there is a comparison with orchids that might be helpful; some people like blended whiskey, tequila, beer or scotch, so that things taste 'uniform', so there aren't any surprises in the quality or taste. others prefer the difference that a different distiller can bring to the final product, or the unique characteristics that a small brewer can bring to the product. variety is the spice of life in these cases, and the other camp just doesn't want any surprises and have everything be generally mediocre (though there are exceptions  )


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## wjs2nd (Nov 23, 2012)

To be honest, I completely disagree with you Charles. I love nature but I like hybrid orchids. I like that someone has taken their time to try a make something, hopefully different then both parents. Many paph hybrids can actually vary a lot in a cross. Just look at paphreek's (Ross) post about cross variation. It shows a group of frist blooming paphs from a cross. Everyone looks different. 

I'm sure that some grow hybrids just because they think they look "pretty", but isn't that the reason most of us have and grow orchids, because they look "nice". 

I don't mean to sound rude but I hate general statements, especially when they put me in a presumed category.


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## fibre (Nov 23, 2012)

Billy, I absolutely agree.
Thanks for your statement!


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## cnycharles (Nov 23, 2012)

wjs2nd said:


> I don't mean to sound rude but I hate general statements, especially when they put me in a presumed category.



 to be fair, it is impossible to do other than make general statements on an open forum, unless you end up writing a manuscript. also you must make note of my  at the end, which means that in general a statement may be taken with a grain of salt :rollhappy:

basically I made my statement with the understanding that there are species (macs) people and hybrid (pc) people, and that each has their own preferences, and that's just fine. relax and enjoy the orchids


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## The Orchid Boy (Nov 23, 2012)

NYEric said:


> The reality of having a "save the species" plant is rare and not very likely. I only know one person who has been in a similar situation. I prefer hybrid plants for the diversity and improvements over the species such as vigor, etc.



I know it probably won't happen with me but it just might. Who knows how much worse the world could get. The Greater Omaha Orchid Society and Henry Doorly Zoo helped save a species, Cypripedium candidum. It was in the county just west of here in Platte county, Nebraska.

I fit Charles explaining. I spent and still spend most of my life outside and live on a farm surrounded by ponds and woods and I love to see things natural and completely undisturbed and untouched by man. I'd let the lawn go "natural" if I could. Most farmers around here are tearing out trees, terraces, ditches, ect. and are farming 2 feet from the road and most people hate to see that, including me. There are no virgin prairies around here that I know of. I wish I could see this state and the whole country when it was "natural and untouched."


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## Ruth (Nov 23, 2012)

> there are species (macs) people and hybrid (pc) people, and that each has their own preferences


or there are species (pc) people and hybrid (mac) peopleoke:

Doing a check of my orchids, I have about a 1/3rd species, 1/3rd primaries, and the rest are hybrids. Don't know if I have a preference, but if it calls to me, I will try to grow it.


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## paphreek (Nov 23, 2012)

Theresa and Bill have stated much of how I feel about Paphs. I love species and breed them when I feel I have decent stud plants, but hybrids call to my artist side, attempting to make a new and beautiful creation. To push the analogy further, species and hybrid parents become the colors and form combined on my canvas. It allows me the joy of creation.


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## NYEric (Nov 24, 2012)

The Orchid Boy said:


> I know it probably won't happen with me but it just might. Who knows how much worse the world could get.



It can always get worse..  Actually, it's getting so bad I worry about humans surviving, much less species of plants. Unfortunately we are all related and in it together! 



paphreek said:


> To push the analogy further, species and hybrid parents become the colors and form combined on my canvas. It allows me the joy of creation.



So deep, Man!!


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## cnycharles (Nov 24, 2012)

paphreek said:


> Theresa and Bill have stated much of how I feel about Paphs. I love species and breed them when I feel I have decent stud plants, but hybrids call to my artist side, attempting to make a new and beautiful creation. To push the analogy further, species and hybrid parents become the colors and form combined on my canvas. It allows me the joy of creation.



that is very cool. to be completely honest, though I explain my interest in collecting species mostly, there are other very large factors at work. I do like looking at many hybrids, especially the cattleya alliance, and there are very many nice hybrids out there, and like all things there are 'good' species and hybrids and 'bad' ones... since I don't have a greenhouse, extra time and especially money, I don't buy most of the vast selection of hybrids that are out there, so I just enjoy looking at them here  . it's also easier for me to personally keep track of what certain species look like and know what they and their culture are, and mostly the species stay the same while there are always more and more and more hybrids, of which I could never keep track of all the names and images :crazy: (especially all of the wild and crazy intergeneric hybrid names)


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## polyantha (Nov 26, 2012)

I have never bought a hybrid or a non-multi paph. The only hybrid I own is a primary hybrid (rothschildianum x gigantifolium). This was a present from the seller. I got it as tiny plant and this cross was not registred at this time.
My goal is to get all multifloral paphs, minimum two of each species. I almost have them all, but plants like Paph intaniae and ooii and album paphs like stonei album are still missing...


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## The Orchid Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

NYEric said:


> It can always get worse..  Actually, it's getting so bad I worry about humans surviving, much less species of plants. Unfortunately we are all related and in it together!



Who care about humans surviving, as long as the plants do! :rollhappy:


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## nikv (Nov 27, 2012)

I love them all! No need to restrict myself to one or the other.


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## The Orchid Boy (Nov 28, 2012)

I love them all too but only have a small grwoing space under a 4' 4 tube T5 light system so I mainly have species.


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## NYEric (Nov 28, 2012)

There's always room for more orchids! oke:


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## The Orchid Boy (Nov 28, 2012)

NYEric said:


> There's always room for more orchids! oke:



I believe you but my parents don't share this philosophy!


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## NYEric (Nov 28, 2012)

So hide them among the other plants. everyone else here does that! :evil:


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## Leo Schordje (Nov 28, 2012)

NYEric said:


> So hide them among the other plants. everyone else here does that! :evil:



:rollhappy: I have a fond memory of friend, sometimes I'd be visiting, and a box of new orchids would arrive. Her husband would call from the other room to ask her; "How many orchids do you have now Dear?" and she would always answer; "Oh, only about 200, these make it 204". When she passed her greenhouse had well over 2000 plants in it. Her husband was stunned, he actually had been believing her! (well, he knew it was more than 200, but he never got around to seriously looking at her collection).


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## eggshells (Nov 28, 2012)

polyantha said:


> My goal is to get all multifloral paphs, minimum two of each species. I almost have them all, but plants like Paph intaniae and ooii and album paphs like stonei album are still missing...



pardon for the derailing but curious on what happened to the intaniae you posted a awhile back? Did it flower and turned out mislabelled?


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## Leo Schordje (Nov 28, 2012)

I'm with Ross, Theresa and the others who really enjoy a mix of species and hybrids. The art of hybridizing, is a pleasure in of itself, almost separate from growing orchids. When I look at the orchid seed pods I have set and successfully produced seedlings from, about 1/3 were species propagation. About 2/3 were hybrids, mostly Paph and Phrags, though the first hybrid I made made and registered was an Odontocidium, though today I think it is a Lembocidium, or maybe a Gomeziocidium. What ever. Odcdm Leo Bosshart (Odm bictoniense x Onc. hastatum) 

I think I have registered a dozen or so hybrids, but I more often than not I remake hybrids that don't seem to be around any more and intrigue me, usually with the artist's pallet in mind. 

I wish those of you who disdain the complex Paphs, would really make the effort to get to see some good complexes that are well grown. Until I saw Wharton Sincler's collection of complexes, I was not impressed with them. Then I saw what a Paph Hellas 'Westonbirt' FCC/RHS can do when well grown. It is still today one imposing flower. Wharton's Hellas was a 5 growth plant that needed a one gallon nursery can to hold it. It was BIG. When grown that well the flowers are spectacular. By visiting Klehm's, I got an appreciation on how rare the 'great' complex Paphs really are. When you see several dozen complex seedlings from the same cross all in bloom you realize that only one in a hundred manages to get both a good color combo and good form and good presentation. So many have flaws that while they may be enjoyable, the flaws definitely knock them out of the show circuit. The high price of a division of an awarded complex is well worth it once you see the amount of composting of the inferior that has to be done. Complex Paphs definitely show that even in hybrids, culture is very important to see the full potential of a flower. 

So basically "I like 'em all", species and hybrids.


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## Leo Schordje (Nov 28, 2012)

*ex situ conservation*

Toward Orchid Boy's comment about our orchid collections being 'living museums' and 'miniature arks' preserving a gene bank for future re-introduction back into the wild. I used to think this way, that our collections, or more specifically MY collection was an 'ark'. 

Time proved to me how wrong this thought is. No collection, private or public is a reliable permanent ark. These collections are ephemeral. Everyone screws up and eventually looses most of their plants to disease or accident over time. Usually we loose them one or two at a time, so we often are not conscious of just how poor a preservation job we are doing. I have owned thousands maybe even more than ten thousand orchids over the last 40 years. (given time, if you buy in 200 or 300 orchids a year, over 40 years, it adds up) Currently my collection is some 1300 plants in my inventory. Of all these plants I bought, at least 1/3 were species, yet I only have at best 50 plants that I have kept alive for more than 25 years. The rest perished for one reason or another. After you kill a couple really rare plants, once you are able to stop weeping, you realize that the only way to preserve these species long term is to make sure there is a healthy population in their native habitat. Habitat preservation is the only long term preservation. Eric Christiansen and I argued about this for a long time and it was he who pointed out how few of my plants actually survived my care for more than 10 years. Even less for more than 25 years. I was struck ill back in 2009 and lost many, many Phrags while I was ill. It is surprising what survives and what doesn't. Murphy's Law says the rare stuff dies first. And it is true. Public collections are just as bad as private collections, often worse. I donated many a rare plant to a conservatory. When I visited after 3 changes of curators in 5 years, only one of the 100 or so plants was left. And it was a common one. (the Odm bictoniense I made my first hybrid with). 

As an inferior 2nd best option, if you end up with a 'next to the Last of the Mohicans', a truly rare plant, if you want to preserve it, you must as quickly as is safe to do try to propagate it. Some of my seed crosses were to spread around rare plants. Your plant might not survive, but if enough progeny are out there, somebody might have some left. 

Ten-man and I have traded back and for a rot prone wild collected Lycaste, Lycaste deppei var punctitissimum, he got a division from me 15 or more years ago. Periodically my division would rot and die, he'd be able to give me a piece of the original. Then his would rot and die and I would give him a piece back in return. Any time there is only one piece left we collectively get nervous. So far timing hasn't been good for producing a selfing for seed. Key is, if you don't spread the rare stuff around it is doomed.

You can argue with me on this, but show me how many plants have survived, and I will point out how many have been lost to cultivation. Paph sanderianum was lost to cultivation long enough that many were beginning to think the original 19th century water colors were a hoax to promote Sander's firm. Most of the Antique Paphs are hybrids, with the benefit of hybrid vigor, some of them have survived. A much smaller number of species have survived. Much smaller. 

Work toward preserving and restoring habitat, it is the only way. And, start at home. In Illinois we have less than 2000 acres of forest that is truly old growth, never been logged or harvested forest. The single largest tracts are not much more than 200 acres each. I believe the acreage of never plowed prairie for Illinois is less than 10,000 acres. This is in a state that is millions of acres in area. That IS NOT maintaining sustainable healthy habitats. Some of these old growth forest tracts do not even have protected status, and could be logged in the future. Before we dance around telling the developing nations they have to preserve their rain forests, we should really put some effort in saving our own. 

So DON'T buy an orchid and keep it thinking "I'm helping preserving the species", that is a delusion. Especially wild collected plants, you are behaving badly purchasing them. BUT DO pick up that rare orchid up knowing that if it has any chance at all surviving 'ex situ' you need to grow it well and propagate it. You can try, but to think the 'ex situ' captive population is a long term viable solution is wrong. I never import species unless I am certain they are seed propagated, I have purchased imported plants once they were already here in country. I do my best to propagate the rare stuff. I don't for a minute think this is being 'ecologically responsible'. As my penance for bad behavior, collecting rare plants, I volunteer with local prairie preservation group, help with the clean ups and such. Also occasionally donate money to certain projects, especially if their ratio of money vs overhead is good, where the bulk of the money goes to the project and not to pay administrator salaries. 

Okay now I shall step off my soap box. Done now.


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## gonewild (Nov 28, 2012)

Leo Schordje said:


> Okay now I shall step off my soap box. Done now.




:clap:
Well said.

Now can you please repeat that?


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## NYEric (Nov 28, 2012)

I have to agree, we kill more plants in private collections than samples spread to other growers.


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## polyantha (Nov 28, 2012)

eggshells said:


> pardon for the derailing but curious on what happened to the intaniae you posted a awhile back? Did it flower and turned out mislabelled?



I think that Roth was right when he told me that they are mislabelled. I compared the leafs under the microscope with my other multis. They are very close to my kolos. So I think it should be kolo or something with kolo in it.
My conditions for the kolos are not very good. I dont know why but they are not growing normally. Perhaps it is something with the substrate? Kolos and platys are problematic for me. Only one platyphyllum seedling shows the massive leafs and grows like weed. It is interesting that all the other paphs are in perfect condition. The anitum adductum and randsii are good and the kolos not. Strange thing! Probably I should try a different substrate. With more CaCO3 or whatever... Never heard that kolos need a different culture than a standard multi.


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## emydura (Nov 28, 2012)

I agree with you 100% Leo. I grow a lot of species but I don't see any link between growing species and their conservation. In fact it could be argued that it is the obsessed species growers who are partly responsible for the decline of many species. You only have to see how newly found species are quickly collected to the point of extinction.

You are correct in saying there is a farily high turnover rate in a collection. 

Who knows what the future will hold. Fads come and go. Orchid growing appears to be on the wane now let alone in 500 years time. By then people could be growing entirely different things. The only way to conserve species is to protect them in their natural habitat. While ever they are dependent on humans for survival they are as good as extinct.


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## SlipperFan (Nov 28, 2012)

Interesting conversation, this thread. Thanks, Carkin for posing that question.



Leo Schordje said:


> :rollhappy: I have a fond memory of friend, sometimes I'd be visiting, and a box of new orchids would arrive. Her husband would call from the other room to ask her; "How many orchids do you have now Dear?" and she would always answer; "Oh, only about 200, these make it 204". When she passed her greenhouse had well over 2000 plants in it. Her husband was stunned, he actually had been believing her! (well, he knew it was more than 200, but he never got around to seriously looking at her collection).


When I moved into my greenhouse two years ago this December, I had about 400 plants and thought that was more than plenty. Now I have over 600 and I can't seem to restrain myself from acquiring more. I don't have any delusions that I am saving species or even rare hybrids. But I do have many really nice plants, and my concern is what happens to my plants when I am no longer able to care for them? Species and hybrids alike.


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## Stone (Nov 28, 2012)

SlipperFan said:


> Interesting conversation, this thread. Thanks, Carkin for posing that question.
> 
> 
> When I moved into my greenhouse two years ago this December, I had about 400 plants and thought that was more than plenty. Now I have over 600 and I can't seem to restrain myself from acquiring more. I don't have any delusions that I am saving species or even rare hybrids. But I do have many really nice plants, and my concern is what happens to my plants when I am no longer able to care for them? Species and hybrids alike.



I think about that too Dot (although hopefully its many years away) But there will come a time for all of us when we must let them all go (to good homes) and wave bye bye:sob:

AS for the species v hybrid thing, I just can't understand the concept of finding a rare and beautiful flower in the wild which has taken hundreds of thousands of years to evolve, ripping it out of the ground and trying to ''improve'' it. Yes its part of the human need to express itself, but I also see it as a kind of...dare I say...arrogance where humans continually place themselves above nature rather than a part of it which is actually the case. Look at how we treat animals and the rest of the natural enviroment. 
JUST SPEAKING IN VERY GENERAL TERMS HERE!!

Now.. after opening that can of worms, I have to say that hybrids (for better or worse) are a part of everyday life. Most of the vegetables we consume are hybrids and my garden is full of hybrid shrubs and perrenials. But I like to keep orchids in a special ''pure'' and ''natural'' state where so much of everything else in life is ''artificial''. It just makes me feel good..
I am under no illusions either that I'm conserving species. In fact ALL orchid growers are in some part resposible for their demise in the wild. The local folk look at them as we look at dandelions until we tell them that they are marketable. And yes there are many hybrids with attractive flowers but if you're after beauty only why would you grow both? There are so many hybrids now that surpass species in size, color, shape, vigour. In the early days orchid growers first grew only species because that was what was available. When hybrids came about, many threw out their species. But there were still a couple of people about like me who thought ''hybrids are a waste of beautiful flowers'' I think its a pity that the hybrid idea is creeping into speces breeding now too. Example: If a Paph leucochilum is not so perfectly round that you can't make out where the sepals end and the petals begin, well then it's not perfect. All I want is a nice leucochilum.


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## NYEric (Nov 28, 2012)

SlipperFan said:


> But I do have many really nice plants, and my concern is what happens to my plants when I am no longer able to care for them? Species and hybrids alike.



_Pssst! Over here! _ :ninja:


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## emydura (Nov 29, 2012)

Stone said:


> AS for the species v hybrid thing, I just can't understand the concept of finding a rare and beautiful flower in the wild which has taken hundreds of thousands of years to evolve, ripping it out of the ground and trying to ''improve'' it. Yes its part of the human need to express itself, but I also see it as a kind of...dare I say...arrogance where humans continually place themselves above nature rather than a part of it which is actually the case. Look at how we treat animals and the rest of the natural enviroment.
> JUST SPEAKING IN VERY GENERAL TERMS HERE!!



You can say the same thing about species. After several generations, most species are bigger, better shaped, better coloured and grow and flower easier than those from the wild. Are you also opposed to the human improvement of species? 

The human species ability to leave their nomadic lifestyle to grow crops and domesticate animals is what has made us the most successful species on the planet. Otherwise we would still be living in caves.


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## The Orchid Boy (Nov 29, 2012)

Another reason I grow species is I'm young enough to see many generations of slower growing orchids grow up. I'd like to make my own hybrids with the species I have. I think it'll be fun.

I never was under an illusion that I was saving species. I thought just maybe somehow, someday I could contribute something like seeds to Troy Meyers Conservatory or something. I know there is probably only 1 in a trillion chance I will actually help "save species" but like I and others have said, I like orchids in their natural state. I'd grow them mounted if I could but it isn't humid enough.


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## JeanLux (Nov 29, 2012)

I came to orchids because of these large flowered white or pink catt hybrids some 40 + years ago! On very special occasions I offered them as cut flowers to my mother and later to my going-to-be wife Triny!
Then being married and having done some rather exp. excursion into the world of bonsai, I came back to those lovely catt hybrids, esp. because I now had a friend working in a nursery where they had some hundreds of them. And of course got some of them and got infected! The following years I bought mainly species, but also hybrids from lots of different genera! And of course killed a lot of them! Then I realized that maybe it would be more realistic to limit the diversity of genera: mainly to catt species, but always some hybrids again, and later (because of the influence here ) to slippers: again mostly species but for besseae or armeniacum hybrids (only as example) was not able to resist aquiering some!

En résumé, I believe in species as well as in hybrids, but for a limited number of genera, colorful, and if possible compact growers !!

Jean


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## gonewild (Nov 29, 2012)

The Orchid Boy said:


> I know there is probably only 1 in a trillion chance I will actually help "save species"



If you try you can increase the odds to 1 in 1. You may or may not be able to save species by yourself but if you try you will be successful in helping. 
If you try hard enough you may turn out to be the 1 in a trillion.



> but like I and others have said, I like orchids in their natural state.



Your interest in the purity of natural species is the seed to saving them.


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## Carkin (Nov 29, 2012)

SlipperFan said:


> Interesting conversation, this thread. Thanks, Carkin for posing that question.
> 
> 
> When I moved into my greenhouse two years ago this December, I had about 400 plants and thought that was more than plenty. Now I have over 600 and I can't seem to restrain myself from acquiring more. I don't have any delusions that I am saving species or even rare hybrids. But I do have many really nice plants, and my concern is what happens to my plants when I am no longer able to care for them? Species and hybrids alike.




You are very welcome! Thank you so much for your replies!!! I have been reading them ALL with great interest. I have really enjoyed "picking your brains"! :rollhappy:


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## Stone (Nov 29, 2012)

emydura said:


> .
> 
> 
> > Are you also opposed to the human improvement of species?
> ...


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## cattmad (Nov 29, 2012)

How long has a crocodile been around for and which is the most successful?[/QUOTE]

Are you proposing we start eating each other and our young?


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## gonewild (Nov 29, 2012)

Stone said:


> emydura said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...


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## NYEric (Nov 29, 2012)

Stone said:


> How long has a crocodile been around for and which is the most successful?


The crocodile can not destroy the environment of humans. 


cattmad said:


> Are you proposing we start eating ...our young?


Yes, everytime I read about them attacking a school bus driver or mugging another child for their sneakers.


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## cnycharles (Nov 29, 2012)

ants seems to be much more successful a genera to me than humans. disease agents that are considered to be 'successful' are ones that only mildly bother their host; humans are far and away much beyond that state for bothering themselves, others and everything around them including each other. the few that are benign to a large degree are largely overwhelmed by the rest. what crocodile or anything else is interested in 'pride' and 'power' over all of the other crocodiles, fish, alligators, hippos etc? people do figuratively 'eat their young' and everything else.... not trying to get into moral issues to a large degree, but abortions are basically 'eating young', to a much worse degree and intent. what crocodile tells all the other ones underneath them in their river, that you can only have one new croc, and all others must die, and reinforce this mandate? not saying that having tons of crocs in the river is either good or bad, just pointing out a questionable thing

I can see this maybe getting heated, and is not my intention to stir....


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## SlipperFan (Nov 29, 2012)

I don't know that I want to have ants as my role model. Last night, we watched a program about Honey Pot Ants. They were amazing, but they also ate competing colonies.

Sorry, Charles. I hardly think you can compare abortion to "eating young."


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## The Orchid Boy (Nov 29, 2012)

SlipperFan said:


> I don't know that I want to have ants as my role model. Last night, we watched a program about Honey Pot Ants. They were amazing, but they also ate competing colonies.
> 
> Sorry, Charles. I hardly think you can compare abortion to "eating young."



People do the same as honey pot ants (in a way). Just look at history and how the world powers came to be so powerful (with the exception of a few). The Romans and Assyrians used force, brute, and scare tactics to conquer everything they could.

Abortion and eating young also has some similarities. The parent or non-parent decides to destroy the young and the young can't help it but the young are destroyed fast.


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## NYEric (Nov 30, 2012)

It's amazing that with all the human on human killing and violence we are still the fastest increasing species on the planet!!


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## wjs2nd (Nov 30, 2012)

Hmmmm, weren't we all talking about if we like species or hybrids orchids more, haha.

As to the abortion topic, althought I don't agree with abortion, most of the time (some situations like mom's health is in danger). I also feel it is completely out-of-line for someone to think they can tell someone else what they can do with their body!

Humanity has a long way to go but we have come a long way too. I still have hope but only time will tell.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 30, 2012)

This is really not an avenue worth pursuing..........but there isn't a carnivorous species in existence that doesn't also practice cannibalism at times. And in many cases, that includes infanticide, a normal response in fact with many species when a new male appears or takes over (and infantophagy? Happens then too....). Since animals aren't capable of abortion, birth/hatching must proceed first. So, yes, humans, in addition to occasionally practicing cannibalism, have practiced infanticide (for much the same reasons as other animals) and abortion. The abortion issue is one that cannot be argued in terms of right and wrong- Absolutely no one is in favor of abortion. But there is only one person in charge of his/her body, and only one person who has to live his/her life. For whatever reasons there are, sometimes abortion appears as the less evil alternative. To me, right or wrong isn't a part of the equation. I grew up in the years before abortion was legal in the US. Believe me..the "Pro-life" people would lead you to believe that making abortion illegal would "save unborn lives". But I know from the world I have seen that no unborn lives were saved when abortion was illegal and women still wanted it. They had abortions anyway. The rich traveled abroad. The rest...well, every week brought articles about the women who died having illegal abortions. Every week. So, not only were the unborn dying, but their mothers were too. To me, legal abortion is more "pro-life" than the alternative.


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## Stone (Nov 30, 2012)

cattmad said:


> How long has a crocodile been around for and which is the most successful?



Are you proposing we start eating each other and our young?[/QUOTE]

Yes thats exactly what I'm proposing!!!:drool:


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## Stone (Nov 30, 2012)

gonewild said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > > Consider....
> ...


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## gonewild (Nov 30, 2012)

Stone said:


> gonewild said:
> 
> 
> > Stone said:
> ...


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## Stone (Nov 30, 2012)

gonewild said:


> > In a hundred million years the crocodiles will be wearing the hats and wishing they could build a river complex where the endangered Homo sapiens preserve is.
> 
> 
> :rollhappy::rollhappy::rollhappy:


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## The Mutant (Dec 1, 2012)

Why this talk about crocodiles? They ain't that impressive. If we talk about something so perfect as nature intended it to be, so it has been left largely unchanged for 420 million years, look at sharks. Crocs are a YOUNG genera compared to them, "only" 55 million years under their belts. :wink:

Back on topic though. For some reason, my collection mostly consists of species, some primary hybrids, and two complex/near primary hybrids. I don't know why this happened, only that it did.

When it comes to orchids, the most important thing to me is the shape, colour is secondary (but still very important). I can discard an orchid due to the shape, despite it having a gorgeous colour (like all cattleyas, can't stand them and think they're just too much with their ruffles and things).

What I consider attractive, is definitely not what everybody else might consider attractive. The reason I really don't like complex Paph hybrids (bulldogs) is because of the shape - I don't like round Paphs! To me, Paphs are supposed to be elegant, and simple, stylistically pure, and these complex Paphs, aren't. Same with the toilette dittos, they're, in my opinion, unbalanced, disproportionate, and just not appealing shape-wise (but they can have gorgeous colours like armeniacum and micranthum do), because this is not how a Paph's supposed to look like according to my brain.

I really don't know if I like species better than hybrids (if they fulfill my demands of shape), my collection just sort of happens to consists mostly of species, 'cause they're easier to get a hold of...


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## The Orchid Boy (Dec 2, 2012)

Interesting comments on shape. Anyone know why different paphs have different shape pouches? I love the parvisepalum and brachypetalum subgenara but the maudiae type paphs and sigmatopetalum/Barbara groups aren't my favorite. I don't particularly care for orchids with green on the flowers, especially with the green and white stripes on the dorsal. I don't know why I don't care for them, they kind of remind me of an inmate in a prison or something.


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## The Mutant (Dec 2, 2012)

The Orchid Boy said:


> Interesting comments on shape. Anyone know why different paphs have different shape pouches? I love the parvisepalum and brachypetalum subgenara but the maudiae type paphs and sigmatopetalum/Barbara groups aren't my favorite. I don't particularly care for orchids with green on the flowers, especially with the green and white stripes on the dorsal. I don't know why I don't care for them, they kind of remind me of an inmate in a prison or something.


I've no idea, but it probably has something to do with what type of insects they're trying to attract, and what the environment looks like. Adaptation in other words.

It IS interesting regarding the shape, isn't it? I must say that parvisepalum is much better looking than brachypetalum, and which one is more round? I think it's funny that what I find appealing in a Paph, you don't, since my favourites are the sigmatopetalum. 

I know about the colours, but for me it's the brachys, because they make me think of dead bodies. Toilets I can stand, but not corpses... 

Oh, and about the green colour. Normally I don't like green on my chids (no Phal with any green hint on the flowers will stay in my apartment), but on Paphs it's okay and sometimes even gorgeous.


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## Carkin (Dec 4, 2012)

The Mutant said:


> I've no idea, but it probably has something to do with what type of insects they're trying to attract, and what the environment looks like. Adaptation in other words.
> 
> It IS interesting regarding the shape, isn't it? I must say that parvisepalum is much better looking than brachypetalum, and which one is more round? I think it's funny that what I find appealing in a Paph, you don't, since my favourites are the sigmatopetalum.
> 
> ...



That is so hilarious!!! I would have never in a million years made a connection between brachys and dead bodies! Isn't it funny how we all see something different?


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