# Substrate testing, 6 months results...Lots of pictures



## Bjorn (Sep 21, 2011)

I have in some earlïer threads argued for what I called "natural growing"
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19229
Approximately one year ago I did quite a few pottings of seedlings using a combination of Lance Birks mix with some partly decayed chopped rose-twigs. The mix was 2 parts Pretty good mix(Think it is 8parts bark 10mm, 2 parts chopped sheet-moss and 1 part silica sand) plus 1 part chopped and slightly decayed (3months in a heap during summer) rose twigs. This mix resulted in vigorous formation of white mycelium, from time to time the pots have been full of the stuff, together with mushrooms appearing now and then. During the last 6 months I have also fertilised with every watering with mineral fertiliser at around 500ppm TDS with increased level of Ca and Mg. N has been around 100ppm. From time to time the fugus has appeared in the pots, quite visibly as white mycelium, at an inspection yesterday, I did not find any. It could be the fertiliser that eventually killed it or simply that there was it had depleted its food resources. The root system of the inspected plants looked ok, but was not very excessive, and the substrate as such seemed to have changed into a more or less crumbly structure - but not soggy. Then the results::rollhappy:
A sanderianum in the above mentioned mix. pot is 8cm, picture taken March 26, 2011





From the side




The same plant in the same pot, picture taken September 20, 2011. Note the two tiny new leads appearing right and left.





Michael Koopowitz in 8 cm pot picture from March 26, 2011.





The same plant in same pot. The picture taken Sept. 20, 2011. This one has had an immense growth, so much that I actually got worried about the insubstantial texture of the leaves. This seems to have improved lately though. I did get a spot on the leaf but it did not spread.





A delenatii album. 8cm pot pic. March 26, 2011





Same Sept 20, 2011





A Ho Chi Minh Picture taken April 29, 2011, 8cm pot





The whole plant:






Yesterday, September 20, 2011, 3 new leads





That is it, I am pretty much satisfied with the growth and the substrate, but would like a better logevity of it though since I do not like repotting:evil:


----------



## Ozpaph (Sep 21, 2011)

Why rose twigs?


----------



## Bjorn (Sep 21, 2011)

Because it was lying around after the rose pruning. A better chioce would probably have been chopped oakleaves and twigs. But at that time I decided that chopped rose would be ok.:rollhappy:


----------



## Marc (Sep 21, 2011)

Impressive growing results, looking forward to see more.


----------



## Bjorn (Sep 21, 2011)

*Fast growth*

About fast growing, the leaf in the picture (P. lowii) has fallen over due to fast growing. It will later stiffen up and appear normal and this is no reason for concern, even if it looks strange.




:rollhappy:


----------



## Mocchaccino (Sep 21, 2011)

Most of your plants look healthy under your test.

However, I do notice that your sanderianum was not pretty growing when comparing the photos of March and September. As you said the pot is 8 cm, i suspect the sanderianum is still a seedling and has not been fully matured. However it gives two other side growths. Isn't it not a good sign?


----------



## Bjorn (Sep 21, 2011)

Mocchaccino said:


> Most of your plants look healthy under your test.
> 
> However, I do notice that your sanderianum was not pretty growing when comparing the photos of March and September. As you said the pot is 8 cm, i suspect the sanderianum is still a seedling and has not been fully matured. However it gives two other side growths. Isn't it not a good sign?



You are right, all are seedlings, none except the Ho Chi Minh has ever flowered. The flower that was shown was its first flower as well from a single-fan plant. 6 months later it has 4 shoots (one is the old one). About the sanderianum, you are right, its good sign that it gets two new shoots.


----------



## paphioboy (Sep 21, 2011)

Nice healthy plants... IMHO it is pretty unusual for a seedling paph to produce new basal growths when the main growth is immature, and a sandie at that..


----------



## Bjorn (Sep 21, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> Nice healthy plants... IMHO it is pretty unusual for a seedling paph to produce new basal growths when the main growth is immature, and a sandie at that..



you have a point there - could it be a bad sign? I do however think that if so it would not produce two new shoots


----------



## Mocchaccino (Sep 21, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> Nice healthy plants... IMHO it is pretty unusual for a seedling paph to produce new basal growths when the main growth is immature, and a sandie at that..





Bjorn said:


> you have a point there - could it be a bad sign? I do however think that if so it would not produce two new shoots





Bjorn said:


> You are right, all are seedlings, none except the Ho Chi Minh has ever flowered. The flower that was shown was its first flower as well from a single-fan plant. 6 months later it has 4 shoots (one is the old one). About the sanderianum, you are right, its good sign that it gets two new shoots.



Sorry for misunderstanding. Actually I meant whether the case of sanderianum would be a bad sign, in agreement with Paphioboy.

Sometimes whether the individual is under stress, it would generate more growths in the hope of one would survive. Just like some weak individuals bloom but will be dead soon. I'm not suspecting that your sanderianum is weak. Because from the photo I felt that it is very strong and healthy. However as Paphioboy said, it would be quite unusual to generate growths before maturation, not to mention generating two growths.


----------



## Bjorn (Sep 22, 2011)

Time will tell whether or not the sanderianum (at least it was bought as one) is getting two new leads due to excessive vigour or simply the opposite. I think it may be the first, because my feeling is that it has more than doubled in size (visually) through the last 6 months(this is difficult to judge though), and it has not shown any signs of slowing down. Could of course be that it is something else e.g. a MK although it has grown much slower than that. I have it next to a roth, that is growing in the same substrate at a similar speed, possibly a little slower, bu I did not have picture of it.
By the way, for some reason pictures of my plants usually look more impressive than the real thing. Both colours and size!


----------



## SlipperKing (Sep 22, 2011)

What is the leaf span of your sanderianum? The two I bloomed were in the 21-22 inch range, single fans when they bloomed. Both generated side growth only after the flowers fell. Both are still in small pots.


----------



## Bjorn (Sep 22, 2011)

SlipperKing said:


> What is the leaf span of your sanderianum? The two I bloomed were in the 21-22 inch range, single fans when they bloomed. Both generated side growth only after the flowers fell. Both are still in small pots.



Its not that big, although I have not measured it my guesstimate would be 10inches?? I am not sure how you measure leaf span, each leaf is around 8 in. but since they are angled, well..... After reading Xaviers stories about fake seedlings I am not even sure anymore if it is the real thing. Time will show.:rollhappy:


----------



## Ray (Sep 22, 2011)

Bjorn said:


> About fast growing, the leaf in the picture (P. lowii) has fallen over due to fast growing. It will later stiffen up and appear normal and this is no reason for concern, even if it looks strange.


I am of the opinion - truthfully, with little to back it up other than observation - that such floppy growth is an indication that the plant is lacking something while it is in its growth phase. I have no idea what, so would be interested in others' thoughts.


----------



## Bjorn (Sep 22, 2011)

Ray said:


> I am of the opinion - truthfully, with little to back it up other than observation - that such floppy growth is an indication that the plant is lacking something while it is in its growth phase. I have no idea what, so would be interested in others' thoughts.



you are possibly right, I have seen it a couple of times and it seems to happen when growt is extremely fast. Although difficult to estimate without actual measurements, but I believe we talk about rates of several mm a day in these cases. The problem is that you do not notice it until they suddely bend over. Usually during a few days they stiffen and look normal again. Its weird. I will follow this one closer the next days.


----------



## Rick (Sep 22, 2011)

Can you determine the pH of the drain water coming out of the pots?


You have a complex system that uses soft acidic water for base irrigation, but plenty of soil amendments that can raise pH and alkalinity.

This goes back to source of nitrogen for use, and your recent discovery that more ammonia based (from urea) greened things up for you.

If you have a low alkalinity system overall nitrates are favored, but with higher alkalinity the shift goes to ammonia. 

I would suspect soil bacteria for converting urea to ammonia are very happy in this mix.

Unless growth of the mother growth stops after the development of new shoots, then I would not be too excited about new shoots on small plants. However, I have seen basal growths start up after some type of crown damage (often a rot) to the mother growth.

If you are seeing rots you may consider further reducing your exposure to potassium.

Other wise I think these plants look pretty good:wink:


----------



## Rick (Sep 22, 2011)

SlipperKing said:


> What is the leaf span of your sanderianum? The two I bloomed were in the 21-22 inch range, single fans when they bloomed. Both generated side growth only after the flowers fell. Both are still in small pots.



My oldest sanderianums (that I tortured for years from seedlings). Developed side growths around 16". They did this prior to any blooming. Unfortunately these also blasted at early bract and crown rotted. The side growths have all survived and are getting close to blooming size now.

I think these were victims of my high K growing (even though I always used something like oyster shell or limestone fines in the potting mix).


----------



## Rick (Sep 22, 2011)

Where are you BTW Bjorn?

Really basic things like light levels and day length could also be a factor, and we were so focused on nutrition and potting mix chemistry.

Are you in Norway? It's dark there for months on endoke:oke: No wonder your plants are crazyoke:oke:


----------



## paphioboy (Sep 22, 2011)

Ray said:


> I am of the opinion - truthfully, with little to back it up other than observation - that such floppy growth is an indication that the plant is lacking something while it is in its growth phase. I have no idea what, so would be interested in others' thoughts.



Maybe so. I have had this happen on roth with a very large leafspan (nearly 4 feet). Every single new leaf flops down for a bit until it gets to about 4 inches then it straightens itself out. A smaller lowii (LS 10 inches) also experiences this..


----------



## Eric Muehlbauer (Sep 22, 2011)

Years ago, I always used to add crushed oak leaves to my paph mix. I stopped because it was a hassle, and I was afraid that their breakdown hastened bark breakdown. But for awhile, I was sure it helped. Maybe I'll try it again.


----------



## SlipperFan (Sep 22, 2011)

Eric, there are different kinds of Oaks. Does it matter?


----------



## biothanasis (Sep 23, 2011)

Grewat growing and plants!!


----------



## Bjorn (Sep 23, 2011)

Yesterday evening, I was in the greenhouse with my phone taking pictures in the dark, The results were so and so but will suffice I guess. If we compare the below picture taken yesterday with the one above taken Sept. 20, no much difference except that no-one have touched the plants obviously:evil:
September 20.





Sept 22.




Has it grown? or has it not Almost impossible to say from such pictures so, since I am a curious guy I found a marker and made these marks on the leaf. Now it will be easy to se the growth!




This morning I was in the greenhouse again and checked up. The picture above was taken yesterday (22nd at 19.30) this morning at 06.30 the inspection showed perhaps 1mm growth. Its gonna be interesting to follow this further!:clap:


----------



## smalleaf (Sep 23, 2011)

i remember testing with a marker how fast my plants were growing too, but I made a few marks along the leaf too


----------



## Bjorn (Sep 23, 2011)

And how were the results? I would expect it not only to grow at the basis but also to some extent longer up, am I right? Most length-growth I would expect to appear at basis though. 
There was a thread on this some years ago, but I cannot find it. Anyone that can?


----------



## smalleaf (Sep 23, 2011)

Well.. marker cured one of my paranoias about plant not growing, and yes- further marks not at the base for later elongation (just a few small marks, with known distance between them.) The growth spurt was at the basis if i remember correctly.


----------



## Bjorn (Sep 23, 2011)

Rick said:


> Can you determine the pH of the drain water coming out of the pots?
> 
> 
> You have a complex system that uses soft acidic water for base irrigation, but plenty of soil amendments that can raise pH and alkalinity.
> ...



It is possible to do a pH measurement of the water, but I have not done it. Should check my pH meters and get new buffers before doing that though, since I have not used them for a long time. It may not be easy to get a representative pH reading though, if ground dolomite does react with the water. Simply bescause the lowii with the floppy leaf has not had lime etc in the mix nor as top-dress The sandie on the other hand is loaded with the stuff So which to choose? Perhaps all? it would be quite interesting to see if there are differences or if all pH end up at 6.8-7.0? Cannot promise anything but perhaps I will have the opportunity to check it soon. I am very busy the next two weeks so.... You might be right with the bacteria, and since I have seen a lot of mycelium, perhaps that contributes as well?


----------



## Bjorn (Sep 23, 2011)

Rick said:


> Where are you BTW Bjorn?
> 
> Really basic things like light levels and day length could also be a factor, and we were so focused on nutrition and potting mix chemistry.
> 
> Are you in Norway? It's dark there for months on endoke:oke: No wonder your plants are crazyoke:oke:



yeah, light might be different, just now its like you had it, but during summer daylight is longer and during winter, well; I have these HPS giving some 1500fc so its up to me (in practice some 11hours day) If the electricity bill permits
About the crazy plants, I think I do things differently, thats why.
I do however think that you are into something with your "potassium-crusade"oke:


----------



## Bjorn (Sep 26, 2011)

*Grow-speed update*

Checking after 48 hours gave this result
Growth seems to be around 2mm/day. The picture was taken on Sept 24, i.e. 2 days ago, and a check this morning shows that growth seems to continue at similar pace. Now the extension is around 10mm. Thats it. Floppy growth probably due to rapid growing q.e.d.:rollhappy:


----------



## Jim Toomey (Sep 26, 2011)

Wow!


----------



## Bjorn (Oct 11, 2011)

An update October 1st: 15mm growth



[/

And another one from yesterday Oct. 10. approx 30mm This is an average of 1.66mm/day! for 18 days! WOW:drool:




Note that the limpness is about to disappear, the leaf starts to raise now. Actually there is another leaf coming as well. Also note the development of the side-shoot.
For Rick, please note that this one is in a home-made wire basket, its visible on the last picture!:rollhappy:


----------



## paphioboy (Oct 11, 2011)

See, paphs are not so slow after all.


----------

