# Paph. fairieanum ssp ? or X ??



## Bernd_S (Mar 19, 2014)

Hi,
1 year ago, i sold an paphiopedilum fairienum at Munich orchid show from an chinese/taiwanese seller. 
The PLant has a very dark flower and the leaves are more than 30 cm span.
here some pictures:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernds_fotoalben/sets/72157642477816785/

My question:
is it a true fairieanum? or a hybrid? ( i could not see signs from oter spec. only colour and very long leaves)
Some told me, that it could be:
Paphiopedilum fairrieanum var. nigrescens Pradhan, Indian Orchids: Guide Identif. & Cult. 2: 674 (1979)
regards
Bernd


----------



## Secundino (Mar 19, 2014)

Without doubt for me, this is a cross _with faririeanum._


----------



## Fabrice (Mar 19, 2014)

Plant is fairrieanum, staminode very similar to fairrieanum typ, flower shape too.

All is fairrieanum for me, except this amazing color of course.
And I have difficulties to know what could be the other parent if it was an hybrid.


----------



## Bernd_S (Mar 19, 2014)

A friend told me:
Orchid Digest, S.Pradhan aus Kalimpong (Indien) OD Heft 4 1978
a picture from var "Rubi Red" and a drawing var nigescens. 
???? does someone knows these article. At web i counldnt find any pictures.
Leaves:up to 28 cm long, above mid- to dark-green with faint mottling, below pale green.
I have other, "normal" fairieanums so i can say, taht the leaves are 100% fairieanum.
It temains only the color and i could not find signs of an other spec. mixed in ???


----------



## eggshells (Mar 19, 2014)

It does look fairreanum to me too (If a hybrid, I have no cloue what the other parent is) Looks like it just opened. Maybe you can post another more opened flower. Then we can probably tell what it is. If it does tuen out a fairreanum. I'm definitely going to be jealous.


----------



## NYEric (Mar 19, 2014)

My vote is hybrid, with a good fairrie influence.


----------



## Bernd_S (Mar 19, 2014)

@NYEric + @Secundino which could be the other parent ?


----------



## NYEric (Mar 19, 2014)

Many things!


----------



## TyroneGenade (Mar 19, 2014)

In any species there is variation. This looks to be just one extreme of the variation. Here is one from Enlightened Orchids: http://www.enlightenedorchids.com/img/Gallery/Shows/Paph fairrieanum Madison 2007 3.jpg I can 100% believe that further breeding along this line can produce the plant you show. Google "paphiopedilum fairrieanum" and you will get a cornucopia of color forms.


----------



## NYEric (Mar 19, 2014)

You see many like the one in Ernie's link. The one Bernd bought is nothing like that.


----------



## SlipperKing (Mar 19, 2014)

About the only hybrid I can think of, and I don't know that it was ever made, would be Varvara back-crossed to fairrieanum. Even if it was made there is no guaranty one would get these colors. I think, until proven otherwise, its one in a million super dark fairrieanum.


----------



## SlipperKing (Mar 19, 2014)

Bernd_S said:


> A friend told me:
> Orchid Digest, S.Pradhan aus Kalimpong (Indien) OD Heft 4 1978
> a picture from var "Rubi Red" and a drawing var nigescens.
> ???? does someone knows these article. At web i couldn't find any pictures.
> ...



I might have this magazine


----------



## PaphMadMan (Mar 19, 2014)

There is an awarded clone pictured in OrchidWiz, Paph farrieanum 'Red' AM/AOS (and 2 HCC/AOS awards) that is quite similar to this - same depth of color but a slightly different shade (which could just be lighting/photography), slightly different color distribution, and without the badly folded dorsal. I think any number of vini-color Maudiae type x farrieanum crosses, back-crossed to fairrieanum, might get close to this appearance, but especially after seeing the picture of 'Red' I see nothing in this flower that isn't farrieanum.


----------



## SlipperKing (Mar 19, 2014)

here is the article, 8 pages long. Click on the pages to magnify and you can read. I think you have the real thing.

http://s250.photobucket.com/user/SlipperKing/library/Varieties of fairrieanum

Here is the one page from the article you are interested in Bernd


----------



## Eric Muehlbauer (Mar 19, 2014)

I say it's fairreanum, but with a cupped dorsal. I have found that when it is bloomed at a cool temperature, fairreanum can be very dark, especially in the dorsal.


----------



## Bernd_S (Mar 20, 2014)

nor the flower is full open.
here more pictures (full res.) Photographes in full sun. No flash, no software. 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernds_fotoalben/sets/72157642630647623/

@Eric Muehlbauer indeed it grows cool. In winter i have 8°C (day) and 5°C (night) now (ca 3 weeks) i have 15-18°C °C (day) and 10°C (night)
whes sum tem. raises up to 20 °C (since ca 2 weeks)
@SlipperKing ... lot of thanks


----------



## emydura (Mar 20, 2014)

SlipperKing said:


> I think, until proven otherwise, its one in a million super dark fairrieanum.



I agree. Amazing coloured clone.


----------



## labskaus (Mar 20, 2014)

Bernd, I wrote to you in the other forum that I think this is likely a hybrid, but cannot account for the plain green leaves.
I've looked at many pics in the internet (where are your blooming fairries at home when you need them?) and there are minor things that set this flower apart from the common fairries:
All fairries have a twisted and pinched dorsal sepal, but the fold in yours is just different.
The petal stance and curve is somewhat different, too.
The staminode has a different shape: whilst fairrieanum usually has an almost round or squarish staminode, yours is diamond-shaped. In addition, is has more white in it and less green veination.
The bract of fairrieanum covers usually 1/3-1/2 of the ovary, and the tip is clearly bent upwards. In your flower, the bract is longer and does not clearly curve up. It is white vs. green in fairrieanum.
The colour is sensational for its intenity and depth. Your flower lacks any green veination, even on the petals, and lacks the brownish-yellowish base colour of the pouch. Even a dark pouch of fairrieanum has red-brown, not this bright brick red.


----------



## SlipperKing (Mar 20, 2014)

Carsten, look carefully at the line drawing of nigrescens from March 1975. You will see on the side view the dorsal clearly reflexes forward. Nigrescens is not your typical run-of-the-mill fairrieanum. Bernd's flower fits well within the above description of 1978 publication. 
When I loaded the whole article above I was able to click on the individual pages to maginify enough to read but from work I'm not able to. I'll have to read the article from home and see if it goes into detail for nigrescens to shed more light on the topic.


----------



## Ozpaph (Mar 20, 2014)

I have never seen a fairie that intensely coloured, not even close. Even the dark clones are more purple than red.
That is an amazing flower if the providence can be verified as collected and not 'bred'.......
If the plant is strong enough it should be selfed - that will probably answer the question and provide seedlings for the rest of us!!!


----------



## Ozpaph (Mar 20, 2014)

The other amazing thing is the complete lack of red in the leaves, unlike most vinicoloured barbatas.


----------



## labskaus (Mar 20, 2014)

SlipperKing said:


> Carsten, look carefully at the line drawing of nigrescens from March 1975. You will see on the side view the dorsal clearly reflexes forward. Nigrescens is not your typical run-of-the-mill fairrieanum. Bernd's flower fits well within the above description of 1978 publication.
> When I loaded the whole article above I was able to click on the individual pages to maginify enough to read but from work I'm not able to. I'll have to read the article from home and see if it goes into detail for nigrescens to shed more light on the topic.



Rick, I agree with you that the nigrescens is not a typical fairrieanum. It has a very untypical colour, but that's (for me) the only difference. The dorsal looks relatively small from the drawing, and yes, it reflexes forward, including the typical fairrieanum waves in the upper third. It does show the small bract too. The petals recurve backwards. The colour of the dorsal and the pouch were described as "dark wine-red", whilst the petals were "dark reddish-purple".
Bernds flower has not just one but a few peculiar features for a fairrie and I'm not convinced yet that it is straight fairrie.

Bernd, who was the vendor who sold you this plant? Have you tried to contact him?


----------



## TyroneGenade (Mar 20, 2014)

If this is a hybrid there is an easy way to test: self it. A hybrid would produce a large range of phenotypes. If this is a real fairieanum we should see only minor variation among the offspring. I see little reason to doubt the authenticity of the label without better evidence than "it looks different to what I'm used to."


----------



## Drorchid (Mar 20, 2014)

I think it is the real deal. Yes, I would self it too. If it is a red vini-color x fairrieanum hybrid, if you self it, it will probably be sterile. These hybrids rarely breed. If it is a true fairrieanum, you will more than likely get viable seed if you self it.

Robert


----------



## SlipperKing (Mar 20, 2014)

Good point guys. I'd like to see you self the plant Bernd


----------



## John M (Mar 21, 2014)

It certainly looks like a pure fairieanum to me....just a very extreme colour form. 

The plain green leaves indicate virtually zero barbata-type influence. Yes, self it. That will provide more of this spectacular plant to the hobby as well as definitively answer the question: Hybrid or not?


----------



## Hera (Mar 22, 2014)

Very intriguing plant. I'd love to see pictures of the parents not just to prove the debate of hybrid or species, but to see how much darker it is than them. It would be interesting to see if the form was the same as well. I'm interested as to why it doesn't recurve like the usual fairieanum.


----------

