# Orchid Books



## PHRAG (Aug 25, 2006)

So what are your favorite orchid books? Do you have a large library, or a single volume? Spill the goods.


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## Heather (Aug 25, 2006)

I do not have a large library. I just have a handfull. When I first started growing, I acquired several beginner's guides such as Ortho's _All About Orchids_ http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/08...4765/ref=pd_bbs_3/002-4606715-1132057?ie=UTF8 and Taylor's. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/03...4765/ref=pd_bbs_6/002-4606715-1132057?ie=UTF8 Taylor's has very nice photos. They were both useful as a new grower but now I would happily pass them on to another newer grower. 
I have a few other books which are more about the history of orchids, but I haven't ever read them. 

Last year I went on a mission to begin aquiring the nicer Lady Slipper books, and that will remain my focus from here forward. So far I have Lance Birk's new _Paphiopedilum Grower's Manual_:
http://www.lancebirk.com/gpage.html2.html

_The Genus Paphiopedilum, Volume 1_ by Braem, Baker, and Baker. I would like Volume 2 but started with one because it has the multi florals in it. 
http://www.orchidculture.com/COD/books.html

_Novelty Slipper Orchids_ by Hasegawa and Koopowitz. Hard to find. I got mine from Tim who got a copy off Australian eBay. 

and _Slippers of Vietnam_ by Averyanov et. al.
http://www.kewbooks.com/asps/ShowDetails.asp?id=376

All four of them are beautiful volumes which I really enjoy having as part of my larger slipper collection. Which leads me to what I *always* say at this point in my book tirade...

*WHEN is someone going to do one of these on the genus Phragmipedium?*


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## Marco (Aug 25, 2006)

Heather said:


> *WHEN is someone going to do one of these on the genus Phragmipedium?*



Hey you can do it oke: :rollhappy:


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## slippertalker (Aug 25, 2006)

The best information available these days on phrags is the special Orchid Digest issues. They are very informative, covering all of the known species, culture and hybridization including besseae hybrids and newer hybrids.


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## Heather (Aug 25, 2006)

Marco said:


> Hey you can do it oke: :rollhappy:



You aren't the first to suggest that, actually. 

The Orchid Digest issue is great, but I would still like to see a nice Phrag. monograph.


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## kentuckiense (Aug 25, 2006)

According to an earlier thread here, P.J. Cribb is currently working on _The Genus Phragmipedium_.


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## PHRAG (Aug 25, 2006)

Nobody has an orchid encyclopedia? What about the picture books for those of us who can't read?


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## Heather (Aug 25, 2006)

I've heard good things about Floras but I don't have one cause I don't grow enough different genera. 
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/08...7970/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-4606715-1132057?ie=UTF8



PHRAG said:


> Nobody has an orchid encyclopedia? What about the picture books for those of us who can't read?



Most of the slipper books I listed are very photo oriented.


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## kentuckiense (Aug 25, 2006)

I would _kill_ for the _Genera Orchidacearum_ set.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0198505132/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-5043928-1898354#reader-link


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## silence882 (Aug 25, 2006)

I obsess more over slipper literature than I do over the plants, so here are my recommendations:

Slipper-specific:

The Paphiopedilum Grower's Manual, by Lance Birk (2004) - A lot of information, but there's no way to know how accurate any of it is. There are no footnotes or even a bibliography. I never reference it. Also, the color of the photos is off. It's not worth the money.
Slipper Orchids of Vietnam, by Averyanov, Cribb, Loc & Hiep (2003) - The gold standard of slipper orchid monographs. A great overview of the flora of Vietnam and exhaustively researched and illustrated descriptions of each species. I wish someone would write a book like this for ever country in Asia.
Paphiopedilum, by Braem & Chiron (2003) - A revision of Braem's 1988 monograph. It's got very nice summaries of the genus and each species. It's loaded with Braem's characteristic arrogance, so you have to be careful about trusting its analyses and absolute statements. I would definitely recommend it.
The Genus Paphiopedilum, vols. 1 & 2, by Braem, Baker & Baker (1998,1999) - A good summation of most of the Paph. species. Since vol. 3 was never written, the series is not complete. Once again, it's chocked full of Braem's arrogance. Braem & Chiron's 2003 monograph encapsulates most of the non-culture info presented here. However, if you're looking for cultural recommendations for each species, I would recommend these books.
The Genus Paphiopedilum, by Phillip Cribb (1998) - A revision of his 1987 monograph. A very complete summary of the Paphiopedilum species. Some of his taxonomic decisions are questionable and lack explanation, but overall an excellent book. I would recommend it to every paph grower.
The Genus Cypripedium, by Phillip Cribb (1997) - The most complete Cypripedium monograph by far. I would recommend it to anyone with more than a passing interest in cyps.
Slipper Orchids of Borneo, by Phillip Cribb (1997) - Very good summaries of the Bornean paphs, but most of the info is reproduced (sometimes word-for-word) in his 1998 monograph.
The Slipper Orchids, by Catherine Cash (1991) - I am unsure how much to trust the information that is presented in this book, so I don't reference it.

Great Picture books:

Paphiopedilum in Taiwan II (1999)
Paphiopedilum in Taiwan III (2003)

Encyclopedias that rule:

The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Orchids, by Alec Pridgeon (1992)
The Manual of Cultivated Orchid Species, by Bechtel, Cribb & Launert (1992)

My library:

Simpson, Michael G. Plant Systematics. Amsterdam: Elsevier Academic Press, 2006.
Allikas, Greg, and Ned Nash. The World's Most Beautiful Orchids. San Diego: Thunder Bay Press, 2005.
Birk, Lance A. The Paphiopedilum Growers Manual. Santa Barbara, CA: Pisang Press, 2004.
Cribb, P.J., and M. Tibbs. A Very Victorian Passion, The Orchid Paintings of John Day, 1863-1888. Blacker Publishing & RBG, Kew, 2004.
Averyanov, L. et al. Slipper Orchids of Vietnam. Portland, OR: Timber Press, 2003.
Braem, Guido J., and Guy Chiron. Paphiopedilum. Saint-Genis Laval, France: Tropicalia, 2003.
Hsiao, Yuan-Chuan. Paphiopedilum in Taiwan III. Taiwan Paphiopedilum Society, 2003.
Handbook on Judging and Exhibition, 11th Edition. Delray Beach, FL: American Orchid Society, 2002.
Watson, James B. Orchid Pests and Diseases. Delray Beach, FL: American Orchid Society, 2002.
Fitch, Charles M. Growing Orchids Under Lights. Delray Beach, FL: American Orchid Society, 2002.
Levin, D.A. The Role of Chromosomal Change in Plant Evolution. New York: Oxford University Press, 2002.
Zachos, Ellen. Orchid Growing for Wimps. New York: Sterling Publishing Co., 2002.
Bronstein, Howard, and Ursula Hoffmann. "American Orchid Society Awards, 1932-2001." American Orchid Society. (Compact Disc), 2002.
Griffiths, Mark. Orchids from the Archives of the Royal Horticultural Society. New York: Harry N. Abrams, Inc., 2002.
Proceedings of the 16th World Orchid Conference, April 1999. Edited by J. Clark et al. Vancouver: Vancouver Orchid Society, 2002.
Batchelor, Stephen R. Your First Orchid. Delray Beach, FL: American Orchid Society, 2001.
Koopowitz, Harold. Orchids and Their Conservation. Portland, OR: Timber Press, 2001.
Sheehan, Thomas J. Ultimate Orchid. New York: DK Publishing, Inc., 2001.
Allikas, Greg, and Ned Nash. Orchids. San Diego, CA: Thunder Bay Press, 2000.
Hansen, Eric. Orchid Fever, A Horticultural Tale of Love, Lust, an Lunacy. New York: Vintage Departures, 2000.
Braem, Guido J., Charles O. Baker, and Margaret L. Baker. The Genus Paphiopedilum, Natural History and Cultivation, Volume 2. Kissimmee, FL: Botanical Publishers, 1999.
Noble, Mary. You Can Grow Orchids, Revised Edition V. Jacksonville, FL: McQuerry Orchid Books, 1999.
Hsiao, Yuan-Chuan. Paphiopedilum in Taiwan II. Taiwan Paphiopedilum Society, 1999.
Ortho's All About Orchids. Meredith Books: Des Moines, IA, 1999.
Cribb, Phillip J. The Genus Paphiopedilum. Kota Kinabalu, Malaysia: Natural History Publications & Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew, 1998.
Braem, Guido J., Charles O. Baker, and Margaret L. Baker. The Genus Paphiopedilum, Natural History and Cultivation, Volume 1. Kissimmee, FL: Botanical Publishers, 1998.
Cribb, Phillip J. The Genus Cypripedium. Portland, OR: Timber Press, 1997.
———. Slipper Orchids of Borneo. Kota Kinabalu, Malaysia: Natural History Publications, 1997.
White, Judy. Taylor's Guide to Orchids. New York: Houghton Mifflin Co., 1996.
Greatwood, J. et al. The Handbook on Orchid Nomenclature and Registration, Fourth Edition. London: International Orchid Commission, 1993.
Dressler, Robert L. Phylogeny and Classification of the Orchid Family. Melbourne, Australia: Cambridge University Press, 1993.
Stearn, William T. Botanical Latin, Fourth Edition. Portland: Timber Press, 1992.
Pridgeon, Alec. The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Orchids. Portland, OR: Timber Press, 1992.
Bechtel, Helmut, Phillip J. Cribb, and Edmund Launert. The Manual of Cultivated Orchid Species, Third Edition. Cambridge, MA: The MIT Press, 1992.
Cribb, Phillip J. The Forgotten Orchids of Alexandre Brun. New York: Grove Press, 1992.
Arditti, Joseph. Fundamentals of Orchid Biology. New York: Wiley, 1992.
American Orchid Society. 1990 Awards Annual. Tokyo: Shinkikaku Company, Ltd., 1992.
Cash, Catherine. The Slipper Orchids. Portland, OR: Timber Press, 1991.
Rix, M. Art in Nature: Classic Botanical Prints from the Eighteenth to the Twentieth Century. New York: Rizzoli, 1991.
Dressler, Robert L. The Orchids, Natural History and Classification. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1990.
Orchid Biology: Reviews and Perspectives V. Edited by J. Arditti. Ithaca, NY: Cornell University Press, 1990.
Hennessy, Esme F., and Tessa A. Hedge. The Slipper Orchids. Randburg, South Africa: Acorn Books, 1989.
McCook, Lucile M. "Systematics of Phragmipedium (Cypripedioideae; Orchidaceae)," Cornell University, 1989.
Koopowitz, Harold, and Norito Hasegawa. Novelty Slipper Orchids: Breeding and Cultivating Paphiopedilum Hybrids. North Ryde, NSW, Australia: Angus & Robertson, 1989.
Braem, Guido J. Paphiopedilum. American Orchid Society, 1988.
Stiff, Ruth L.A. Flowers from the Royal Gardens of Kew. Hanover, NH: University Press of New England, 1988.
Orchid Biology: Reviews and PerspectivesIV. Edited by J. Arditti. Ithaca, NY: Cornell University Press, 1987.
Withner, Carl.L. A Book of Orchids. New York: William Morrow and Company, Inc., 1985.
Proceedings of the Eleventh World Orchid Conference. Edited by Kiat W. Tan. Singapore: Internation Press Co, Ltd., 1984.
Orchid Biology: Reviews and Perspectives III. Edited by J. Arditti. Ithaca, NY: Cornell University Press, 1984.
Bennett, Keith S. The Tropical Asiatic Slipper Orchids: Genus Paphiopedilum. North Ryde, NSW, Australia: Angus & Robertson, 1984.
Birk, Lance A. The Paphiopedilum Growers Manual. Santa Barbara, CA: Pisang Press, 1983.
Graham, Digby, Robin Graham, and Ronald Roy. Slipper Orchids: The Art of Digby Graham. Wellington, NSW, Australia: Reed, 1983.
Shuttleworth, Floyd S. et al. Orchids, Revised Edition. New York: Golden Press, 1982.
Hernstrom, T.C. Paphiopedilum. TJD Co., 1982.
Hunt, David R. Orchids from Curtis's Botanical Magazine. London: Curwen Books, 1981.
Ratcliffe, Edna. The Enchantment of Paphiopedilums: Anthology of Facts and Fancies. Didcot, England: Author, 1977.
The Orchids, Scientific Studies. Edited by C.L. Withner. NY: Wiley, 1974.
Waters, V.H., and C.C. Waters. A Survey of The Slipper Orchids. Shelby, NC: Carolina Press, 1973.
Rands, R.J. Paphiopedilum Species. Los Angeles: Author, 1973.
Reinikka, Merle A. A History of the Orchid. Miami: University of Miami Press, 1972.
Whittle, Tyler. The Plant Hunters. Philadelphia: Chilton Book Co., 1970.
Dodson, C.H., and R.J. Gillespie. The Biology of the Orchids. Mid-America Orchid Congress, Inc., 1967.
Hawkes, Alex D. Orchids, Their Botany and Culture. New York: Harper & Brothers, 1961.
Proceedings of the Third World Orchid Conference. London: Royal Horticultural Society, 1960.
The Orchids, A Scientific Survey. Edited by C.L. Withner. NY: Ronald Press, 1959.
Watkins, John V. ABC of Orchid Growing. Englewood Cliffs, N.J.: Prentice Hall, Inc., 1956.
Sanders' Orchid Guide, Revised (1927) Edition. St. Albans: Sanders, 1927.
Williams, Benjamin S. The Orchid Grower's Manual, Seventh Edition. London: Victoria and Paradise Nurseries, 1894.
Burbidge, F.W. The Gardens of the Sun. London: John Murray, 1880.
Linden, Jean. Pescatorea, Iconography of Orchids. Brussels: M. Hayez, 1860.
Lindley, John. The Genera and Species of Orchidaceous Plants. London: Ridgways, Piccadilly, 1830-40.


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## slippertalker (Aug 25, 2006)

Silence882,

Your list is so long that I now realize why I won't do the same......My list is just as long and I just don't have the time to catalog every book! Let's just say I have many of the same books, don't have some, and have a few others that you don't.
Fine effort :clap:


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## silence882 (Aug 25, 2006)

I am far, far too lazy to write out citations. 2 years ago a teacher divulged a few programs (Citation, Endnote) in which you enter the vital stats and it generates bibliographies and footnotes for you. That way I only have to enter the info once and I can generate a list whenever I need it. Best thing ever.

--Stephen



slippertalker said:


> Silence882,
> 
> Your list is so long that I now realize why I won't do the same......My list is just as long and I just don't have the time to catalog every book! Let's just say I have many of the same books, don't have some, and have a few others that you don't.
> Fine effort :clap:


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## SlipperFan (Aug 25, 2006)

Impressive, both of you!


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## TADD (Aug 26, 2006)

I agree about the issue's with Birk's book. The one book that I always tend to go to when I reference orchids is Botanica's "Orchids". It is full of pictures, and brief descriptions and regional information. Decent for a beginner.


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## Marco (Aug 26, 2006)

I have one book. It's basically an orchid picture book for dummies.


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## gore42 (Aug 26, 2006)

For what it's worth, I've found the information in Birk's book to be very helpful... I don't think that it's ever pointed me in the wrong direction. Granted, there are no citiations... but I think that's just because it's aimed at a popular audience rather then a scientific one. Indeed, I think that the vast majority of his information comes from personal experience anyway, so I suspect most of it wouldn't require citation anyway. Regardless, I find it useful 

The rest of my books have pretty much been mentioned already... Slipper Orchids of Vietnam, Cash's The Slipper Orchids, The Genus Paphiopedilum - Cribb...

I also sometimes find the Phragmipedium section of Baker and Bakers "Orchid Species Culture" helpful. I don't have their Paph volume.

- Matt


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## Stephan (Aug 27, 2006)

As they say about me when I talk computers at work (I have "some" of those books too )

Cough

Cough - nerd



Cheers
Stephan


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## slippertalker (Aug 28, 2006)

I have the original version of Birk's paph book, and find it informative although dated. He is not a taxonomist, but he has actually visited many of the locations the plants and has a good concept of the cultural requirements. In many ways his ideas on species variation is more valuable than the taxonomists that haven't seen the plants in situ.


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## Lance Birk (Sep 13, 2006)

Silence882 - Stephan Manza

I am really tired of you continuously trashing my book with your stupid and mostly self-serving comments every time the subject arises. What is it with this compulsion you have to display your own limitations? Your failure to recognize the accuracy and quality of my work simply displays your ignorance, your lack of experience and your irresponsibility.

There is a reason why both my editions became two of the best selling orchid books in history; it is because they offer innovative ideas that work. My book is the one that changed orchid growers; from being killers of orchids (see your own tag,”Paph Assassin’), into SUCCESSFUL orchid growers, and my 1st edition book was the tool that initiated the change. Mine was the first book written in English to list and to show photos of all the known paphiopedilums. More importantly, it is unique, as no other book has caused such a revolution in the cultivation of virtually all types of orchids. But first you need to actually read it.

Your comments that my book is a “rant,” and that “the information is available in a dozen other places” acutely displays more of your ignorance. You just don’t get it! I suggest you read the Bulletin and the Orchid Digest and The Orchid Review issues published BEFORE your frame of reference (your own birth date), and become an educated person. Most books on your list came after my book. Many have copied me (without citation), as have other recent authors who now take my principles of culture and apply them to numerous other genera of orchids.

One of your main complaints seems to be that my book has no bibliography. Let me spell this out for you: A bibliography is for authors who employ other people’s ideas as the foundation for their work. I have read (at least once) almost every piece of literature ever written in English (and some in French), and then discarded most of it because I found it just a lot of replicated, bogus data that mostly leads to the death of our cultivated orchids.

My paph book is based on PURE research. Pure research is where you start from scratch and then go out to find what works, on your own. My research on paphiopedilums was done both in the greenhouse and from the jungle; it is something no other person has ever done. If you are unable to comprehend it, then I think you have the problem, not my book. Many thousands of orchid growers have found it offers them great success.

Your comment, “None of his information is ever cited.” is a correct assessment. Mine is a CULTURAL book, not one about taxonomy. This is spelled out quite clearly in the Introduction (both editions), something you yourself could have read, had you bothered; and I put photos in my book for readers to see what each species looks like and to compare with those they have.

I accept your criticism about a few of the color photos. Since I chose to keep the cost of printing low, while still producing a high quality art book, I was forced to accept some discoloration caused by the flow characteristics of inks and by the physical placement of the photos in signatures. I wished photos in mine were as excellent as Cribb's 2nd edition paph book, but I didn’t think it would sell very well at well over a hundred dollars if I demanded such perfection. I believe most readers agree, (ask Phil Cribb).

You probably are an intelligent person and I assume you are simply ignorant and not devious. I really don’t know if you are seeking revenge with me for sending you a courtesy notice regarding your copyright infringement issue concerning graphics from my book, but if you are, I would think you might be grateful that I chose not to prosecute you. But maybe not.

While I agree that Averynov’s book is superb, most people will agree that the quality of photos in my book are quite a lot better. Still, his are more than acceptable to most everyone, and I noticed you failed to criticize them in your commentary. The major point you fail to notice is that just about every orchid grower is more interested in learning how to grow their plants well, than they are in reading taxonomy. 

This is why my book remains a best seller.

Meanwhile, stop trying so hard to impress people by your acquisition of book lists and a Web site displaying other people’s data, and instead, go learn what orchids require in order to prosper, and then learn how to grow them because right now you understand neither. Only then might you become knowledgeable, and your opinions actually mean something. 

Lance A. Birk


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## PHRAG (Sep 13, 2006)

Mr. Birk,

I would like to welcome you to our forum. I do sincerely hope that you will continue to post in other topics. It would be a shame to hear from you only when there is a chance to defend your book.

I am not going to comment on much of the body of your response to this thread, as it seems that you and Stephen have a history that taints the argument at hand. I will ask you to refer to our rules about name calling. Calling someone ignorant, while rude, is acceptable. Ignorance is simply a lack of knowledge. But calling someone stupid is, in my opinion, childish and insulting.

I would like to ask you for clarification on one item in your response. Your text is as follows...



Lance Birk said:


> I really don’t know if you are seeking revenge with me for sending you a courtesy notice regarding your copyright infringement issue concerning graphics from my book, but if you are, I would think you might be grateful that I chose not to prosecute you. But maybe not.


 
I am going to assume that Stephen used your photographs at some point in the past on his website, and that you asked for their removal. I understand that Stephen operates a non-profit, educational website. As anyone with even a basic understanding of copyright law can tell you, the use of copyrighted material in non-profit, educational materials is covered under the Fair Use clause of copyright law if certain conditions are met. This clause also allows for the use of copyrighted materials in certain for profit ventures as well. As someone who has used a large number of copyrighted photographs under the Fair Use clause, I would be more than happy to discuss this matter in more detail. 

My main concern is with your statement that Stephen should be grateful to you for not being prosecuted for copyright infringement in a situation where you obviously have questionable legal grounds to sue him. Again, I am only assuming that this is the type of situation you are referring to. If I am wrong, please correct me. 

At best, this type of behavior elevates you to the status of those individuals who threaten lawsuits with no legal merit knowing that the average person will remove the items in question rather than pay legal fees. If I am incorrect in my interpretation of your attitude regarding these matters, please educate me. Otherwise, my judgement of you will be limited to grouping you in with those contemporaries previously mentioned. I would hate for my first introduction to you to be clouded by such an opinion.

John McGarity


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## Drorchid (Sep 13, 2006)

I have a copy of Lance Birk's book and even though it may be useful as a cultural reference book, for me as a scientist I do not use it often as a reference book as I want a more in depth background to the history and taxonomic status of the different species. In my view both Phillip Cribb's book and Guido Braem's book on Paphiopedilums are much more valuable......but that is just my opinion

OK, I could not help to resist:



Lance Birk said:


> Your failure to recognize the accuracy and quality of my work simply displays your ignorance, your lack of experience and your irresponsibility.



Just as an example to show "the accuracy and quality" of Lance Birk's work: On Page 263 of his book Mr. Birk states (in a capture underneath a picture of Mount Kinabalu), that Mt. Kinabalu stands majestic as the tallest mountain in the Southern Hemisphere.

#1 Mt. Kinabalu is not in the Southern Hemisphere, but it is in the Northern Hemisphere, and it definitely is not the tallest mountain on the Northern Hemisphere (is Mt. Everest).

#2 If it was on the Southern Hemisphere it still would not be the tallest mountain (as Mount Puncak Jaya on the Island of New Guinea is almost 1000 m taller, and Mount Aconcagua in Argentina at 6960 meters is the tallest mountain in the Southern Hemisphere).

Robert


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## silence882 (Sep 13, 2006)

Lance Birk said:


> You probably are an intelligent person and I assume you are simply ignorant and not devious. I really don’t know if you are seeking revenge with me for sending you a courtesy notice regarding your copyright infringement issue concerning graphics from my book, but if you are, I would think you might be grateful that I chose not to prosecute you. But maybe not.



I would like to post a quick explanation of this before dealing with the rest of the message later.

I redrew and cited, but posted without permission the bottom half of the line drawing (leaf and tip shapes) on page XII of the second edition. Mr. Birk was right to tell me to take the graphic down as I never should have posted it. This has nothing to do with my dissatisfaction with his book.

The courtesy notice Mr. Birk referred to was e-mailed to me on Aug 25, 2005. I immediately removed the graphic and replied saying I had taken it down. The two e-mails are reprinted below (gmail is great).

At this point the website was still very much in its infancy. I had registered for free hosting on Aug 1, 2005, and didn't register slipperorchids.info until October. I don't think I had actually posted any bloom photos on the site; it was still all the taxonomy tables. I would bet the graphic was up for a maximum of two weeks, but probably more like one.

If you would like to try to 'prosecute' me or file a lawsuit for damages, I suppose you still could. I don't think you would be able to find a lawyer to do so, though. I do, however, appreciate getting the notice. It showed me that I needed to be extremely careful with getting permission for posting anything that might exceed 'fair use'.

--Stephen

Copyright infringement notice, Aug. 25, 2005 6:48 AM:


> Greetings Stephen Menza,
> 
> I just noticed that you have taken a page from my book, THE PAPHIOPEDILUM GROWER'S MANUAL, and/or the revised 2nd edition, and have copied it and have placed it on your Web site.:
> 
> ...



My reply at 10:26 a.m.:


> Hello, sorry about the infringement. I actually used your book as a
> reference to draw the picture I had posted in Adobe Illustrator. I
> sourced your book because that's where I got the info from. I have
> taken the picture down and will modify it to where it is easily
> ...


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Sep 13, 2006)

Weird...anyone else just have a flashback of the interview with Tom Cruise about brain science??

Jon
________
PORTABLE VAPORIZERS


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## PHRAG (Sep 13, 2006)

Jon in SW Ohio said:


> Weird...anyone else just have a flashback of the interview with Tom Cruise about brain science??
> 
> Jon


 
Ha ha. No. But comparing anything to Tom Cruise can't be good.


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## Marco (Sep 13, 2006)

Can we all hold hand's and sing Kumbaya?  

Pelt me with banana peels and other semi-hard objects if needed, unwanted paphs, dollar bills, seed pods, empty water bottles and any sort of unwanted objects and the like are all welcome,  

Thanks. 

Just trying to lighten up the mood here and get free plants in the process. lol (Like I would really be able to house anymore!)

----

As an aside I do plan on purchasing Lance Birk's and Phillip Cribb's books because I've heard good things about both of them. Once I find places that sell them. The only books I have is a general all around orchid for dummies type of book. And this flaskin book that I totally ignored after opening and scanning it. Looked to much like my chemistry lab book. A class I failed with flying colors! I think it's safe to say that I will probably never flask anything on my own. Most of my resources come from members of this forum, antec and friends I've meet along the way that I've asked for advice. Cheers and thanks to you all, you know who you are


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## silence882 (Sep 14, 2006)

Alrighty, please indulge me while I respond to the rest of the attack.

My review:


silence882 said:


> The Paphiopedilum Grower's Manual, by Lance Birk (2004) - A lot of information, but there's no way to know how accurate any of it is. There are no footnotes or even a bibliography. I never reference it. Also, the color of the photos is off. It's not worth the money.



There are lots of allegations made about me, so here we go:



Lance Birk said:


> I am really tired of you continuously trashing my book with your stupid and mostly self-serving comments every time the subject arises. What is it with this compulsion you have to display your own limitations? Your failure to recognize the accuracy and quality of my work simply displays your ignorance, your lack of experience and your irresponsibility.


Gonna need more info on this one. I can't figure out how my review or my general dissatisfaction with the book qualifies as 'self-serving', 'displaying my own limitations', 'irresponsible' or 'ignorance'. Is the point here that no one who is not self-serving/irresponsible/ignorant could possibly dislike your book? 



Lance Birk said:


> There is a reason why both my editions became two of the best selling orchid books in history; it is because they offer innovative ideas that work. My book is the one that changed orchid growers; from being killers of orchids (see your own tag,”Paph Assassin’), into SUCCESSFUL orchid growers, and my 1st edition book was the tool that initiated the change. Mine was the first book written in English to list and to show photos of all the known paphiopedilums. More importantly, it is unique, as no other book has caused such a revolution in the cultivation of virtually all types of orchids. But first you need to actually read it.


Speaking of self-serving, this is quite a paragraph. I don't believe you've had nearly as much impact or deserve nearly as much credit as you give yourself.

The man I pay homage to (and wish I had had the chance to meet) is Jack Fowlie. He resparked the interest in the slippers when he took over as editor of Orchid Digest in the 1960s. His series of articles (which I only have about half of) describing his trips to the habitats of paphs and phrags are the best reference material I have yet seen.



Lance Birk said:


> Your comments that my book is a “rant,” and that “the information is available in a dozen other places” acutely displays more of your ignorance. You just don’t get it! I suggest you read the Bulletin and the Orchid Digest and The Orchid Review issues published BEFORE your frame of reference (your own birth date), and become an educated person. Most books on your list came after my book. Many have copied me (without citation), as have other recent authors who now take my principles of culture and apply them to numerous other genera of orchids.


I didn't call it a 'rant' here, but I have used that word describing it elsewhere. I believe I said something like 'aside from the species pages, the rest is either available elsewhere or a rant.' I can't speak to who copied you or who use your principles of culture. I am mainly concerned with the verifiability of data. As with the info in your book, you've given no references and provided no examples that would let me confirm what it is you're saying about plagiarists.



Lance Birk said:


> One of your main complaints seems to be that my book has no bibliography. Let me spell this out for you: A bibliography is for authors who employ other people’s ideas as the foundation for their work. I have read (at least once) almost every piece of literature ever written in English (and some in French), and then discarded most of it because I found it just a lot of replicated, bogus data that mostly leads to the death of our cultivated orchids.
> 
> My paph book is based on PURE research. Pure research is where you start from scratch and then go out to find what works, on your own. My research on paphiopedilums was done both in the greenhouse and from the jungle; it is something no other person has ever done. If you are unable to comprehend it, then I think you have the problem, not my book. Many thousands of orchid growers have found it offers them great success.


A bibliography is for authors who use any data from another's work. The fact that your book is based mainly and almost entirely upon your own observations doesn't mean that the data taken from elsewhere shouldn't be cited. A freshman in high school is taught never to use someone else's data without properly citing the source.

Under each of the species, one of the headings is 'Introduced by:'. This is data that can only come from research and yet, no sources are cited. How am I to know where you got the information so that I can check the sources? Habitat data is also listed for each species. I realize that you've seen almost all of them in situ, but have you seen them all? The ranges are listed as well. Are you saying that the ranges are just where you have seen each species? The same goes for the elevations where each has been found? It could be that the ranges and elevations are where you have found the plants, but how am I to know?

As an example, the first edition lists habitat data for Paph. delenatii, a species which wasn't recollected after the '20s until the early '90s. No source is cited and you obviously hadn't seen them in the wild, so where did that data come from?

You list the range of Paph. viniferum, a plant that, as far as I know, has only been seen in the wild by collectors (and maybe not even then, the variety appeared amongst a batch of callosum that were not necessarily in flower when collected). Where did the range come from that's listed in your book?

Robert's example of flat out wrong information is yet another question mark with regards to the books.



Lance Birk said:


> Your comment, “None of his information is ever cited.” is a correct assessment. Mine is a CULTURAL book, not one about taxonomy. This is spelled out quite clearly in the Introduction (both editions), something you yourself could have read, had you bothered; and I put photos in my book for readers to see what each species looks like and to compare with those they have.


I realize this is a cultural book, which is why I wouldn't expect meticulous citations. A bibliography, though, would be the bare minimum.



Lance Birk said:


> I accept your criticism about a few of the color photos. Since I chose to keep the cost of printing low, while still producing a high quality art book, I was forced to accept some discoloration caused by the flow characteristics of inks and by the physical placement of the photos in signatures. I wished photos in mine were as excellent as Cribb's 2nd edition paph book, but I didn’t think it would sell very well at well over a hundred dollars if I demanded such perfection. I believe most readers agree, (ask Phil Cribb).
> 
> While I agree that Averynov’s book is superb, most people will agree that the quality of photos in my book are quite a lot better. Still, his are more than acceptable to most everyone, and I noticed you failed to criticize them in your commentary. The major point you fail to notice is that just about every orchid grower is more interested in learning how to grow their plants well, than they are in reading taxonomy.


Saying that the 'color of the photos is off' in the second edition of your book was an understatement. I don't know the quality of the originals, but the reproductions of many of the species and in situ photos are horrible. The photos in the books of Averyanov et al, Braem, and Cribb, however, are superb.



Lance Birk said:


> This is why my book remains a best seller.


Out of curiosity, how many copies of each edition have been printed and sold? And how does this compare to other slipper books as well as general orchid culture books? I assume you have these numbers?



Lance Birk said:


> Meanwhile, stop trying so hard to impress people by your acquisition of book lists and a Web site displaying other people’s data, and instead, go learn what orchids require in order to prosper, and then learn how to grow them because right now you understand neither. Only then might you become knowledgeable, and your opinions actually mean something.


All science is based on the data previously collected by others (e.g., "If I have seen far, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants." --Newton). I haven't been to Asia, so all I can do is gather and summarize reliable information. Your book, without sources, doesn't qualify. My interests and site aren't cultural, obviously, as no advice in that respect is given. 

And of course, the key question: if you don't care about my opinion, why the attack? Your entire message smacks of arrogance and has done nothing to rebut my criticisms or convince me that I'm wrong. I do realize, however, that there are some people who are so full of themselves that they take any criticism as a personal attack and respond maliciously. I guess that's you.

--Stephen


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## PHRAG (Sep 14, 2006)

Somebody pass the popcorn. This just got good.


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## TADD (Sep 14, 2006)

Ummmm WOW!!! Can I have some corn? :evil:


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## couscous74 (Sep 14, 2006)

Keep it down in front with the popcorn, I'm trying to watch the show. :evil:


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## Jason Fischer (Sep 14, 2006)

Pheeew! OK guys, I'll add my 2 cents. 

I first met Lance Birk at the Fascination of Orchids show in Costa Mesa, 2005. He was at the booth next to me selling his latest book and we hit it off. He is a very cool dude, but not quite as cool as me (though he seems to think so). 

Now, we have to all understand something here as you may not all know of his hardships. A few years ago he had a stroke and had to re-learn how to function, starting with learning how to move each finger on each hand. He was persistent and hopeful to regain his ability to function like any other human being. This recovery time can be quite painful to watch as one of my best customers had a stroke and it slowly brought him to rest over the period of two years. It is great to see how he has recovered so quickly and so well. The one thing I did notice by reading this forum is that he has gone insane (yes Lance, I’m talking to you now read up!).

I’m surprised to hear him say that his books are best sellers. I know for sure his second edition has only sold about 50 copies, of which 40 were ones that I purchased for resale. I think I’ve sold a few pages out of one I had to rip out because my customer was so damn cheap. The other thing is that when I was watching Lance sell his books, he would always offer an autograph, but he would actually want to charge $10 more per book. I kept telling him “Lance, you’re not THAT good looking!”. I wanted to help increase the sales of his book, so whenever he would leave his booth I would offer them for 50% off, which didn’t make him very happy when I sold a few copies (I think those were the other 10 copies out of the 50). The other strange thing is that he kept hitting on girls 1/2 his age (that would be about 50 year olds) that were walking around in the mall!

OK OK, I’m totally kidding Lance! I just like to get you riled up! Seriously, I’m not taking sides or anything, but trying (like Marco) to lighten things up a bit. Lance is indeed a very nice guy and when I read his criticizing response I could only help but laugh as I only know Lance to be a joker (he and I joke around a lot). I do have to say that the 1st edition of the Paph. Grower’s Manual is one of the first books I read when I started to get into paphs, and I am thankful and respectful for that. I offered my help with writing the 2nd edition, but he turned me down as I wanted 90% of all the profits. OK that was another joke! Anyways I just wanted to join in and say hi and that I know Lance is very good guy, in case this thread scared you away from him. Although meeting him in person might really scare you away… OK I need to stop with the jokes! Good night!


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## kentuckiense (Sep 14, 2006)

Jason,

Reading your response, my jaw got progressively lower to the ground. Then I read the 'just kidding' part. Good show!


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## Marco (Sep 14, 2006)

Jason -

I hope Lance comes back on that one oke: I wouldn't let something like that fly :rollhappy:


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## PHRAG (Sep 14, 2006)

What the ****!?!?

Jason, that was the most confusing post in this forum's short history.  

Nobody is questioning Lance's personality here. For whatever it's worth, he may be a great guy. But I think he stepped in here with his guns blazing at Stephen, who I have come to know as a great guy.

I think Stephen asked some very good questions that need to be answered. I am just waiting on Lance to come in here and answer them.


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## Heather (Sep 15, 2006)

Well, all I know is, if he's such a nice guy, he would have accepted an honest apology after we had a run in a while back. I had asked him how he knew so definitively about their culture without actually growing Paphs for the last decade or so. That question didn't go over very well. I really wanted to know!

Knowledge can be expressed in an helpful, educational way, and knowledge can be expressed in an arrogant way. I've seen both from Lance, but more often the latter when any criticism of his methods is involved.


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## Jason Fischer (Sep 15, 2006)

I do agree with you all, I'm just playing the joker that's all. I know Stephen is a good guy too, and I wasn't trying to say "hey everybody be on Lance's side!". Of course, the rest will be left up to he and Stephen to resolve whether it be here on the forum or in private. 

Peace!


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## Gideon (Sep 15, 2006)

Jason Fischer said:


> Pheeew! OK guys, I'll add my 2 cents.
> 
> I first met Lance Birk at the Fascination of Orchids show in Costa Mesa, 2005. He was at the booth next to me selling his latest book and we hit it off. He is a very cool dude, but not quite as cool as me (though he seems to think so).
> 
> ...



:rollhappy: :rollhappy: :rollhappy: 

I actually like the book, it may not be a scientific masterpiece...but then again, I am no scientist, I find it pretty easy reading, usefull information for the normal grower. A lot of people want practical info, and don't want to sift through stacks of taxa to find out how often to water their insigne...

As soon as I can find one for sale locally I will purchase it...I am hogging our society's library book at the moment


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## myxodex (Sep 15, 2006)

I have both Lance Birk's book and Phil Cribb's 2nd Ed The Genus Paphiopedilum.
I have found both books useful as a beginner as they have a different aim. I think the quality and intelectual discipline in Cribb's book is much higher than in Lance's book ... and it makes me aware of just how much better Lance's book could have been. It's really hard work putting a book together and I'm guessing his anger at the criticism might just stem from the fact that he knows at some level in himself that this book could have been much better with a small additional fraction of the work he had already put in.

I think a grower's manual could have included more on some of the well know hybrids ... which are often easier to grow for beginner's and more commonly available. Some of the more discursive chapters could have been edited to remove repetition and convey ideas in a more concise and organised way. The quality of the photographs has been discussed above ... as someone new to paph growing I have to say that what I really liked about Cribb's book are the quality photo's/drawings of the plants ... as far as orchids go many paphs have great leaves and are mostly beautiful plants even when not in flower. It seems amiss not to indulge in this just a bit more. 

Just imagine what kind of grower's manual could be produced from the collective knowledge/photo's/etc of the people in this forum ... assuming, improbably, that an ego-free collaborative spirit prevailed !! ... dream on.

Cheers,
Tim


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## Lance Birk (Sep 15, 2006)

PHRAG 

Unfortunately, John, you don’t get it. You just missed the entire point of my message. This isn’t about you, or about Stephan Manza, or about any other personality. This is about orchids.

Maybe I am mistaken, but I was under the impression this Forum was a place to discuss matters concerning best methods of orchid growing, and a place where beginners can learn how to stop killing them. Perhaps you, too, fail to understand that my book explains things such as why, exactly, air movement is so important, what, exactly, happens when you water, and why, exactly, orchids need good light, in a way that no other author ever did, so why would anyone want to recommend against it? I would imagine you would agree that saving the lives of orchids is a favorable result, and that you might even subscribe to my position; or am I missing something about the purpose of this Forum?

I accept your welcome; and I stand by my post.

Lance Birk

Incidentally, in answer to posted comments, I never said my book was without mistakes. What I said was that my book has been responsible for saving the lives of countless tens of thousands of orchids…(actually, this is what Rebecca Northen once told me).

Jason: You said 5 paragraphs…you just wrote 4. You’re only getting 20 bucks and not the 50 you demanded. And I’m not a paraplegic, you jerk.


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## paphjoint (Sep 15, 2006)

It's good to see that Lance Birk is on the forum too - so that I can get an answer here :

I just enjoyed the first edition of your book - I considered it as my Paph bible for many years - now my question is why are the picture in the second book or edition of such poor quality ?


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## Marco (Sep 15, 2006)

Lance Birk said:


> Jason: You said 5 paragraphs…you just wrote 4. You’re only getting 20 bucks and not the 50 you demanded. And I’m not a paraplegic, you jerk.



:rollhappy: Glad we didn't scare you away


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## silence882 (Sep 15, 2006)

Thanks, guys, for the support I've gotten in this thread after LB's first post. It means a lot to me and I can't express how grateful I am to have friends that I have made here vouch for me after having been maliciously insulted in a place where I feel at home.

--Stephen


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## PHRAG (Sep 15, 2006)

Lance Birk said:


> Unfortunately, John, you don’t get it. You just missed the entire point of my message. This isn’t about you, or about Stephan Manza, or about any other personality. This is about orchids.


 
I am not going to pretend that your purpose for posting was an attempt to further discussion about orchid care, and neither should you. Your self-glorifying rant against Stephen's criticism had more to do with patting yourself on the back. I recognize bull**** when I see it Mr. Birk. 



Lance Birk said:


> Maybe I am mistaken, but I was under the impression this Forum was a place to discuss matters concerning best methods of orchid growing, and a place where beginners can learn how to stop killing them. Perhaps you, too, fail to understand that my book explains things such as why, exactly, air movement is so important, what, exactly, happens when you water, and why, exactly, orchids need good light, in a way that no other author ever did, so why would anyone want to recommend against it?


 
I think Stephen gave his reasons for the criticism. He even gave you an opportunity to explain some of the criticisms he had of your work. Your response, to date, has been to sing your own praises and ignore the issues. If anyone has been ignoring the discussion of orchids, and the books written about them, it's you.

There is a pattern developing here. Heather asked you how someone who writes about keeping orchids alive can't seem to do so, and you responded with rude and off-putting banter. Stephen asked about your lack of citation for information about plants you couldn't have possibly seen in-situ, and you respond with rude and off-putting banter. I question your ability to effectively teach about the subject you seem to love while being so rude and off-putting, and you respond with rude and off-putting banter. Do you see a pattern developing here? Or do you just not get it?

Post an honest explanation to Heather about what happened to your orchids, without being snide. Post a response to Stephen's questions about where you got the information in your book that wasn't based on your own research, and why you didn't cite it. Do these things without being pompous and arrogant, and I guarantee you will sell more books. I have no intention of supporting authors with questionable credibility.


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## silence882 (Sep 15, 2006)

First paragraph of LB's first message:


Lance Birk said:


> Silence882 - Stephan Manza
> 
> I am really tired of you continuously trashing my book with your stupid and mostly self-serving comments every time the subject arises. What is it with this compulsion you have to display your own limitations? Your failure to recognize the accuracy and quality of my work simply displays your ignorance, your lack of experience and your irresponsibility.



First Paragraph of LB's second message:


Lance Birk said:


> Unfortunately, John, you don’t get it. You just missed the entire point of my message. This isn’t about you, or about Stephan Manza, or about any other personality. This is about orchids.



These two paragraphs conflict.

Like most other members of this forum, I love talking about orchids. I reviewed the PGM 2nd edition and would have welcomed a reasoned rebuttal. What you started with was a baseless attack. You have yet to address any of the concerns that I and others have brought up with regards to your book.

The people here have become a community based on mutual respect. We welcome everyone, but aren't going to put up with the rudeness and arrogance that you have so far displayed.



Lance Birk said:


> Maybe I am mistaken, but I was under the impression this Forum was a place to discuss matters concerning best methods of orchid growing, and a place where beginners can learn how to stop killing them. Perhaps you, too, fail to understand that my book explains things such as why, exactly, air movement is so important, what, exactly, happens when you water, and why, exactly, orchids need good light, in a way that no other author ever did, so why would anyone want to recommend against it? I would imagine you would agree that saving the lives of orchids is a favorable result, and that you might even subscribe to my position; or am I missing something about the purpose of this Forum?



This forum is for all things slipper-related (and even some non-slipper related). It includes, but isn't in any way limited to, orchid culture.

The two messages you have so far posted don't make you sound like you want to discuss orchid culture. They make you sound like you want to preach your methods of orchid culture and that anyone who doesn't immediately acknowledge that they're wrong and you're right must be ignorant. I'm sure everyone here would welcome your involvement in the various discussions. But you don't get to be dictator of the culture threads, however much you may think you deserve the title.

--StephEn


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## Marco (Sep 15, 2006)

Honestly, I hate getting serious and all cause it aint all that serious. I just skim this thread. Picking up bits and pieces here and there from what people say.

Life is experiential and the only way someone can truely say an individual is right or wrong is if someone walked in the subjects shoes from birth to death but in and of itself that still would be biased. It's all relative ultimately no ones right and no ones wrong. It just depends on the glasses we choose to put on. 

My glasses show me that this world is everyone's playground whether you live in ethiopia or beverly hill's. Some kid's just don't know how to use there toys. Look at these wars because these so called "popular/important" kids get scratches on their ego so they go "booohoo I need to feel better so im gonna point an atomic missle at you" Then people get pissed cause their kids die in wars. Now you can just take that popularity rating and multiply or divide that by any number and add however many zero's you want to the end. The only difference it make is your either selling lemonade on the corner for 5 cents a glass or trips on spaceships for billions of dollars.

Anyways enough with my theological/philosophical crap. I'm gonna go back to being a kid  . So can we sing kumbaya now? please?


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## Lance Birk (Sep 16, 2006)

PHRAG and Silence

I can’t believe I have to spell this out for you, but here it is---open your mind please, and just read:

For anyone who actually reads my book, they will learn just about everything they need to become a successful orchid grower, in practically any environment, in any hemisphere. This is proven and I have hundreds of letters and e-mails from people around the world as proof. I have also seen that proof in several different countries.

For Silence to recommend people not buy it, is to deny to those who would believe his words, the opportunity to learn those successful techniques. Therefore, until that ‘someone’ learns to be a successful orchid grower, he will continue to kill more of his orchids. I don’t like that.

I put my foot down on Silence because I thought he was being unfair, unreasonable, and stupid. He is an ignorant orchid grower, and I do not mean this as an insult, who does not know the difference between P. callosum and P. viniferum. And I doubt he knows about Rebecca Northen because he doesn’t even have any of her books. And if anyone else doesn’t know who she was, she was probably THE person most responsible for modern orchid culture.

He is probably a nice fellow, but he completely missed the point, too. He thinks a bibliography is so important, but that’s just mindless drivel. The real truth of knowledge comes when you read and absorb everything there is about a subject……not just the “loc. cits.” 

My own knowledge came from many parts. I had access to Dr. Fowlie’s and the Orchid Digest files, I picked the brains Of Dr. Jim Asher and Dr. George Kennedy, as well as those of countless other orchid people. I’ve been to herbaria and botanic gardens around the world and I’ve been to many orchid habitats. I even took some habitat data from Phil Cribb. I could go on, and on, and on…..but, so what? Who give a rat’s ass when the data is good and the methods work??? Get off it Silence…a bibliography gives you zip!

And if it will make you both happy, I will say this about Heather. On the other Forum, I offered her suggestions, encouragement, hope, support and my considered advice, and I tried to help her to understand how she could use her own power of observation and logic to diagnose and solve some of her cultural problems. 

In return, I was greeted with anger, resentment, ridicule and a barrage of antagonistic questions that I had already addressed to her. She then met my every post with her own editorial comments, in fact, trying to make me look bad. I certainly did not expect or need such harassment and I dropped off the Forum. Her compulsive obsession to inject herself into each and every conversation is not something I have the need to endure. This is why, until now, I never posted here, even though I was asked to do so by several members.

She then started sending me private e-mails and in one she offered an apology. But she immediately asked other questions, answers to which were addressed in my book, and I told her so. Finally, I asked her to return my book and I would send her a full refund. She refused.

Heather does not speak the truth about me. She is a congenital non-learner who resents authority, she fears someone with confidence and she reacts quickly with anger. I told her exactly why I no longer grew orchids, and here in this Forum she denies the fact. The reason is also printed in my book on page 146, in complete and agonizing detail, again, she failed to read my book.

So Heather, if you want me to continue with this, and to reproduce your e-mails and posts I will, but I really don’t think you want me to go there. You make the call, or just leave it alone.

This is all just a lot of BS, PHRAG, and were you or Silence more knowledgeable about orchids this drama would not be necessary. Again, I don’t mean that as any kind of an insult, it’s simple fact. I certainly don’t have the time to educate either you or anyone else about what I have learned….that is precisely why I wrote the book. I guess if I had a Ph.D after my name you would then believe me more, right?

And to answer another question, I’ve sold well over 7,000 paph books. And while in the real world that isn’t much, I’ve been told by several booksellers just how well it outsells any other orchid book of its kind. 

And I can tell you this: I have been to places that most people would never believe. I’ve seen things that I don’t think any human has seen before. I have done things that actually changed the world, as trite as that may sound, in places other than in orchids. I have a huge curiosity, a gift of insight and of intelligence, and I exercise them as best I can. 

This has been at a huge cost in time, money and energy. While I never had to kill anyone, I came dangerously close at times. One friend died in my arms, but I saved the life of another. My own life was spared a dozen times, by nothing more than luck. Most people just have no clue of what it takes to learn truth, and to some, this all must sound like I’m “patting myself on my back.” I put a lot of what I learned in my paph book, and I offer it to anyone who wishes to learn from these things. It makes me happy that so many people have found it useful and the lives of orchids have been bettered.

When you get right down to it, it really is all about ORCHIDS, isn’t it?

Lance Birk


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## SlipperFan (Sep 16, 2006)

Marco said:


> So can we sing kumbaya now? please?


I'm for that!!!


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## Shadow (Sep 16, 2006)

SlipperFan said:


> I'm for that!!!


Me too. Let's go eat popcorn somewhere else.


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## PHRAG (Sep 16, 2006)

Ok, before I dig into a response, let me just say this. If you don't like this thread or the feelings it represents, don't read it. Nobody is making you read it. If you don't like the fact that this forum allows for ALL of it's members to speak their minds, even if they have a problem with someone, then don't read the threads that bother you. 




Lance Birk said:


> For Silence to recommend people not buy it, is to deny to those who would believe his words, the opportunity to learn those successful techniques. Therefore, until that ‘someone’ learns to be a successful orchid grower, he will continue to kill more of his orchids. I don’t like that.


 
Mr. Birk, you have convinced me! I will never buy your book, and I am going to recommend to everyone I know that they don't buy it either. It may very well be a great cultural manual. What others have said here disputes that, but that is not the reason I won't buy your book. I am not going to buy your book because I would be supporting you financially by doing so. I am sorry for engaging you in such a way on a public forum. I had heard stories of your unrelenting narcissism before, but now I have experienced it firsthand. 




Lance Birk said:


> I put my foot down on Silence because I thought he was being unfair, unreasonable, and stupid. He is an ignorant orchid grower, and I do not mean this as an insult, who does not know the difference between P. callosum and P. viniferum. And I doubt he knows about Rebecca Northen because he doesn’t even have any of her books. And if anyone else doesn’t know who she was, she was probably THE person most responsible for modern orchid culture.


 
This paragraph is proof that you need some counseling. You "put your foot down on" someone? Do you have any control over how arrogant you allow yourself to be? You are saying Rebecca Northen is the person most responsible for orchid culture in the above paragraph. That's a switch, I thought you were the person most responsible for orchid culture. You seem to take every opportunity to tell people that. 




Lance Birk said:


> He is probably a nice fellow, but he completely missed the point, too. He thinks a bibliography is so important, but that’s just mindless drivel. The real truth of knowledge comes when you read and absorb everything there is about a subject……not just the “loc. cits.”





Lance Birk said:


> My own knowledge came from many parts. I had access to Dr. Fowlie’s and the Orchid Digest files, I picked the brains Of Dr. Jim Asher and Dr. George Kennedy, as well as those of countless other orchid people. I’ve been to herbaria and botanic gardens around the world and I’ve been to many orchid habitats. I even took some habitat data from Phil Cribb. I could go on, and on, and on…..but, so what? Who give a rat’s ass when the data is good and the methods work??? Get off it Silence…a bibliography gives you zip![/


 
The bibliography is important because without citing one's sources, one becomes a plagiarist. I think you have just admitted to it. I thought your knowledge came from your own research? And now you are telling us all of the above people helped you write your book and you didn't credit them? I suggest you look up the definition of plagiarism.




Lance Birk said:


> So Heather, if you want me to continue with this, and to reproduce your e-mails and posts I will, but I really don’t think you want me to go there. You make the call, or just leave it alone.


Let me tell you something else, Mr. Birk. I have NEVER, NEVER known Heather to be anything of the things you said about her. I am to believe you, a narcissist and a plagiarist, above a person who I know to be a kind and caring person? Your psychosis is so absolute, it taints everything you write!

If you talk to another member in a threatening tone like this, I will ban you myself. Do you understand? You make the call.




Lance Birk said:


> This is all just a lot of BS, PHRAG, and were you or Silence more knowledgeable about orchids this drama would not be necessary. Again, I don’t mean that as any kind of an insult, it’s simple fact. I certainly don’t have the time to educate either you or anyone else about what I have learned….that is precisely why I wrote the book. I guess if I had a Ph.D after my name you would then believe me more, right?


 
You seem to believe that anyone who questions you in any way is an ignorant person who doesn't care about orchids. You sir, are the worst sort of teacher. You are a dictator. If someone asks you to explain yourself, you become the absolute authority who should never be questioned. In a way, this is a good thing. It shows people just the type of person you are, and gives you no credibility. People need to support authors who care more about orchids, and teaching, than making themselves look like an authority. In your case, regarding your intelligence and your contribution to the orchid growing community, the "emperor has no clothes."




Lance Birk said:


> And I can tell you this: I have been to places that most people would never believe. I’ve seen things that I don’t think any human has seen before. I have done things that actually changed the world, as trite as that may sound, in places other than in orchids. I have a huge curiosity, a gift of insight and of intelligence, and I exercise them as best I can.





Lance Birk said:


> This has been at a huge cost in time, money and energy. While I never had to kill anyone, I came dangerously close at times. One friend died in my arms, but I saved the life of another. My own life was spared a dozen times, by nothing more than luck. Most people just have no clue of what it takes to learn truth, and to some, this all must sound like I’m “patting myself on my back.” I put a lot of what I learned in my paph book, and I offer it to anyone who wishes to learn from these things. It makes me happy that so many people have found it useful and the lives of orchids have been bettered.


 
If you want to be lauded as a true pioneer in orchid culture techniques, stop trying so hard to praise yourself with overly grandiose statements. We already have a Mahon here, and he is better at this than you. When you say these statements about yourself, it just sounds like a contrived and poorly thought out press release. Other people must say these things about you in order for it to be effective in elevating your status. The only way people will want to praise you for your work, is when your work is worthy of praise. 

When you decide to present your public image as someone authoritative, but then attack those who ask you difficult questions, it ruins any chance you have of building a solid reputation. Instead of being that likeable researcher with wild stories to tell, you become that cantankerous, old orchid hobbyist with too much time on your hands, a passport and enough money to hop on a plane. Seeing an orchid in-situ and writing a mediocre book does not an orchid legend make.

Between the rip-off orchid dealers, the crooked botanical garden staff, the self-proclaimed orchid experts and the wanna-be orchid rock stars, it is a small wonder all the orchids haven’t been crushed to death under the immense weight of your bloated egos.




Lance Birk said:


> When you get right down to it, it really is all about ORCHIDS, isn’t it?


 
This is the funniest statement you have made to date. To you, it's all about the Lance Birk. "How can I make Lance Birk look like a god today?" I really believe you think that way. Fortunately for me, I have seen through it before I wasted my money on your book.


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## silence882 (Sep 16, 2006)

Lance Birk said:


> I can’t believe I have to spell this out for you, but here it is---open your mind please, and just read:


You telling anyone to open their mind is laughable.



Lance Birk said:


> For anyone who actually reads my book, they will learn just about everything they need to become a successful orchid grower, in practically any environment, in any hemisphere. This is proven and I have hundreds of letters and e-mails from people around the world as proof. I have also seen that proof in several different countries.
> 
> For Silence to recommend people not buy it, is to deny to those who would believe his words, the opportunity to learn those successful techniques. Therefore, until that ‘someone’ learns to be a successful orchid grower, he will continue to kill more of his orchids. I don’t like that.



And the only way to become a successful orchid grower is for 'someone' to buy your book? And anyone who doesn't recommend your book is ignorant? I don't think so. Whether or not you first came up with the methods I can't say one way or the other. But as of now, the information you provide isn't new, novel, exciting, or unique. To spend $68 for a copy of the 2nd edition would be a waste of money.



Lance Birk said:


> I put my foot down on Silence because I thought he was being unfair, unreasonable, and stupid. He is an ignorant orchid grower, and I do not mean this as an insult, who does not know the difference between P. callosum and P. viniferum. And I doubt he knows about Rebecca Northen because he doesn’t even have any of her books. And if anyone else doesn’t know who she was, she was probably THE person most responsible for modern orchid culture.



Actually, I do know the difference between callosum and viniferum because I read the original description in the 2000 Orchid Digest. 

An eye-opening side note is that the two pictures that you use in your book are the exact same ones that appeared at the start of the article (the difference being that you have edited out the internode in the one on the left and the stake holding up the spike in the one on the right). The OD credits the photos to Clark Day, Jr. and Paphanatics, unlimited. Your book doesn't list anyone as having taken those photos, at least not on the viniferum page. There is a generic list in small print under 'Photographs' on the copyright page (neither Clark Day, Jr., Paphanatics, Koopowitz, or Hasegawa is listed; Orchid Digest is listed). You obviously want the casual reader to think the photos are yours.

In their description, Koopowitz & Hasegawa first state the origin of three of the four [known] original clones, "The plant had surfaced in an enormous importation of P. callosum brought into Holland from Burma...". In the next paragraph they state the origin of the fourth clone, "The plant was thought to have originated in Vietnam or Cambodia."
(Source: Koopowitz, H, Hasegawa, N. Paphiopedilum viniferum, A New Species Name for a Well-known Plant. Orchid Digest 64 (4):150, Oct/Dec; 2000.)

Your book lists under Paph. viniferum: "RANGE: Burma, possibly Vietnam or Cambodia".

I assume the K & H article is where you got your info? I of course have know way of knowing that for sure because it's not cited. You, like every other non-fiction author, aren't entitled to use other peoples' information without citing it.



Lance Birk said:


> He is probably a nice fellow, but he completely missed the point, too. He thinks a bibliography is so important, but that’s just mindless drivel. The real truth of knowledge comes when you read and absorb everything there is about a subject……not just the “loc. cits.”
> 
> My own knowledge came from many parts. I had access to Dr. Fowlie’s and the Orchid Digest files, I picked the brains Of Dr. Jim Asher and Dr. George Kennedy, as well as those of countless other orchid people. I’ve been to herbaria and botanic gardens around the world and I’ve been to many orchid habitats. I even took some habitat data from Phil Cribb. I could go on, and on, and on…..but, so what? Who give a rat’s ass when the data is good and the methods work??? Get off it Silence…a bibliography gives you zip!



A bibliography allows others to confirm what has been said and to compare your interpretation with the original work. Anyone who's written a college paper knows that a professor would laugh at a student who turns in an assignment without a bibliography and footnotes.



Lance Birk said:


> This is all just a lot of BS, PHRAG, and were you or Silence more knowledgeable about orchids this drama would not be necessary. Again, I don’t mean that as any kind of an insult, it’s simple fact. I certainly don’t have the time to educate either you or anyone else about what I have learned….that is precisely why I wrote the book. I guess if I had a Ph.D after my name you would then believe me more, right?



Actually there would be no need for this discussion if you had a Ph.D. Most people know enough to cite their sources.



Lance Birk said:


> And to answer another question, I’ve sold well over 7,000 paph books. And while in the real world that isn’t much, I’ve been told by several booksellers just how well it outsells any other orchid book of its kind.
> 
> And I can tell you this: I have been to places that most people would never believe. I’ve seen things that I don’t think any human has seen before. I have done things that actually changed the world, as trite as that may sound, in places other than in orchids. I have a huge curiosity, a gift of insight and of intelligence, and I exercise them as best I can.
> 
> This has been at a huge cost in time, money and energy. While I never had to kill anyone, I came dangerously close at times. One friend died in my arms, but I saved the life of another. My own life was spared a dozen times, by nothing more than luck. Most people just have no clue of what it takes to learn truth, and to some, this all must sound like I’m “patting myself on my back.” I put a lot of what I learned in my paph book, and I offer it to anyone who wishes to learn from these things. It makes me happy that so many people have found it useful and the lives of orchids have been bettered.



I am actually looking forward to reading your next book. I like reading the older stories told by plant hunters and it will be interesting to compare those to a modern account.

But this thread isn't about you or your exploits, despite your best efforts to make it so.

--Stephen


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## silence882 (Sep 16, 2006)

Lance Birk said:


> And if it will make you both happy, I will say this about Heather.... [rant continues]



This is supposed to make someone happy?

You're not gonna get anyone on this forum to believe the **** you've been shovelling. Heather is as friendly and respectful a person as you'll ever meet. I have been glad to get to know her over the past year and am happy she's here.

As I've said before, I imagine most people would be happy to hear your input in many of the theads, but not if it's the same pompous pontificating that you have so far demonstrated. We don't need a 'Well I'm an expert and who are you to dare question me' attitude running around.

--Stephen


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## slippertalker (Sep 16, 2006)

Holy smokes, you guys are getting a bit fired up over differences in philosophy and a few big egos. I would recommend that you all take a step back absorb all of this and move on...........
Stuff like this is similar to why the U.S. and the world are so polarized on so many levels. If you can't talk to each other than just ignore each other.....


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## PHRAG (Sep 16, 2006)

slippertalker said:


> Holy smokes, you guys are getting a bit fired up over differences in philosophy and a few big egos. I would recommend that you all take a step back absorb all of this and move on...........
> Stuff like this is similar to why the U.S. and the world are so polarized on so many levels. If you can't talk to each other than just ignore each other.....


 
Why are all of you so ready to stifle this discussion? If you don't like a fiery debate. don't read it!

I am not going to be so stupid as to say don't post here. Everyone has the right to say whatever they want. But this posting, asking everyone to hold hands and sing kumbaya is annoying. 

If Mr. Birk didn't want this discussion to continue, he would quit responding. This is a discussion forum. The discussion will continue as long as it will. You can't control it, and the administrators of this forum started this forum so discussion could take place, for free, without fear of reprisal.

Mr. Birk has yet to answer any of the questions put to him on this forum. Is that not important enough for you to discuss?


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## PHRAG (Sep 16, 2006)

And saying that our discussion here is somehow linked to the United States being hated by the world is a stretch, don't you think?


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## Heather (Sep 16, 2006)

Personally, I enjoy this sort of discussion, (in fact, that's why I started asking Lance questions way back when in the first place!) This is one of the things that John and I really felt strongly about when we started this forum. The number of posts at the other forum that were locked or deleted because of this sort of 'disagreeable' conversation (including most of the kovachii threads) was disconcerting to me, and I always was disappointed when valuable discussion was effectively shut down. 

People have been criticized here, and they need to be able to respond. I don't think anything has really gotten out of hand here.


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## couscous74 (Sep 16, 2006)

Lance Birk said:


> Finally, I asked her to return my book and I would send her a full refund. She refused.



Lance,
Can I send you back your book for a full refund?


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## PHRAG (Sep 16, 2006)

Lance Birk said:


> He thinks a bibliography is so important, but that’s just mindless drivel. The real truth of knowledge comes when you read and absorb everything there is about a subject……not just the “loc. cits.”
> 
> My own knowledge came from many parts. I had access to Dr. Fowlie’s and the Orchid Digest files, I picked the brains Of Dr. Jim Asher and Dr. George Kennedy, as well as those of countless other orchid people. I’ve been to herbaria and botanic gardens around the world and I’ve been to many orchid habitats. I even took some habitat data from Phil Cribb. I could go on, and on, and on…..but, so what? Who give a rat’s ass when the data is good and the methods work??? Get off it Silence…a bibliography gives you zip!


 

From Indiana University: www.indiana.edu

To avoid plagiarism, you must give credit whenever you use

another person’s idea, opinion, or theory;
any facts, statistics, graphs, drawings—any pieces of information—that are not common knowledge;
quotations of another person’s actual spoken or written words; or
paraphrase of another person’s spoken or written words.


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## kentuckiense (Sep 16, 2006)

An open letter to John McGarity, SlipperTalk.com founder:

Dear Sir,
This thread has caused me to do a lot of thinking and reflecting. I really think there is only one course of action here. John, it's time to man-up and do it for the orchids. You know what I'm talking about. It's time that you close down the SlipperTalk forums and make the URL point to http://www.lancebirk.com. Seriously. The book has everything that you need to know about growing orchids. What's the point of a forum, then? We just don't need it. Think about it, John.

kentuckiense

CC: Woola, Marty, Pete, and whoever runs RV-Orchidworks


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Sep 16, 2006)

I'm not here to bash anyone, but here's my take on it.

I remember when Lance joined the other forum. I remember, because like when Olaf and Leo and Bob etc, etc, etc(way too many to list) joined, I was excited. I thought to myself how awesome it was that I finally found a place where all these people I only knew from their work actually posted their opinions and expertise for everyone to read. So many people who I always wanted to meet in person, and I figure this is the next best thing.

Unlike all the other wonderful people who joined that didn't let me down, and showed they were not only experts, but also wonderful people to be around, Lance decided he was King of the paphs and he didn't write A book on paphs, he wrote THE book on paphs. I've read it, and thought it had good information, but have also read many books I felt to be better. This was my opinion, and is why I didn't recommend Lance's book either. On top of that, the more I've learned, the more I've learned how much more I have to learn. This makes having someone who comes off very arrogant stressing they do know everything much more annoying and much less credible to me.

I don't know Stephen as well as I know Heather, but I know he's irritated more than one taxonomist with his demand for quality. I think that is a good thing. A major part of his slipper hobby is researching what others have found and assembling it together in a very technical way. In doing so he wants the hard facts, and I don't blame him, I applaud him for that. This is why I was not surprised at all when he didn't recommend Lance's book, because it definitely is not a taxonomic work. I personally found the information as common knowledge, and a higher quality book with more species and better pictures could be found elsewhere, that's why I didn't recommend it.

Say what you will about Heather, it will fall on deaf ears. We know better. I can see how her question could sound a bit prying to Lance, but knowing her, I took it as an honest question with all the new growing techniques and medias around today like semi-hydroponics and coconut husk chips, how could he say his way was better without trying the new ways?

Jon
________
Mazda luce picture


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## Lance Birk (Sep 16, 2006)

Silence

I would be remiss if I did not say this about you. I have a lot of respect for the mission you have chosen, and that is the work on your Web site. While I have disagreements with some of your content, I have a lot of admiration for the scope of your project and I encourage you to continue. 

I also admire your energy and your drive to locate and to reference a very impressive amount of data for people to find in one, easily accessible site….(just like my book!). I also have confidence that at some point, you will become well educated about orchids. I hope your interest and enthusiasm continues beyond that point, before you probably get interested in something like frogs, fish, parrots, or something with similar intrigue.

Which brings the point:
There are two issues here. First off, my book is a cultural book. You have focused on taxonomical issues. The entire cultural aspect is mine and mine alone. There is nothing to cite, anywhere. And, as I said before, I put photos in my book to allow readers to identify their plants. The identities I placed on some species, which someone might find controversial, are my own interpretation. Of course, I studied hard the existing data, and in some I reached a different conclusion than Cribb or Koopowitz. I just happen to think mine are more correct. (It’s a matter of opinion, remember?).

I sat down with Jack Fowlie on many occasions. We went through his files of books, maps, hand-written letters, photographs, line drawings, photos of herbarium sheets, and all sorts of stuff, some of which dated back to earlier centuries. We compared notes and discussed personal anecdotal episodes, and those of acquaintances, and we compared descriptions, oftentimes of the same subject, identified differently by different, or even the same, ‘authority.’ We discussed the intent of descriptive Latin words, which vary all over the place. Even the word “Brachypetalum” is illegally comprised of both Greek and Latin. Botany is really a mess. Cribb, and the current Royal Horticulture Society are screwing it up in such a way, I don’t see how it will ever get sorted out.

I could spend hours going through Cribb’s paph book, listing errors he has made, both in judgment and in interpretation of his published work. Still, I think his 2nd edition is a superb reference book, and an art book, I just have a different opinion of how he interprets his raw data.

I have to tell you how little faith I have in our education system. I am familiar with the Ph.D program at the Univ. of California at Santa Barbara. I have read countless books, textbooks and articles, some written by professors themselves, who have published NUMEROUS errors, and in some cases, completely false results and bogus data in their works. I know this because, in many cases I repeated those same experiments and found different results, and I found where and why they made their mistakes. Mistakes are not just limited to botany, as I have found them in texts of other sciences as well.

A good amount of my “Range” data came from national library books which describe climate and weather information. Compared to maps and personal knowledge, or from persons familiar with local geography, etc., it doesn’t always jibe. In many cases I had to make an educated “guess” (Oboy, there goes my credibility), to arrive at suitable data to include in my book. And, some of my data came from my past experiences of habitat types, etc., by deduction from certain clues derived from plant growth characteristics and a whole range of separate sources.

So how do you prepare a bibliography of this sometimes conflicting or unbelievable data? More importantly, why bother when my data is good and the results are proven?

You asked a question about range, and whether I knew the complete range of a species. Answer: No one does. Not even Cribb, yet he drew his maps based on his guess, as well as from some hard data. The truth is, no one will ever know for sure, but both Cribb and I have stated our best guesses… and it works as far as any reader is concerned. 

Neither Norito nor Harold had suitable photos of P. viniferum so Harold said to use the Digest plates. Steve Golis sent them to me as I flew to China…..my credit to the Orchid Digest was proper and correct. You may have noticed that I published photos of illegal species, but I purposefully did not credit them to individuals in particular, instead I credited my sources in one group. You should know this is proper and smart. By the way, No one could tell me exactly where this species originates, opinions abound but none have been found in the wild, so I took my best guess after consulting with persons who live there or are familiar with orchids from those areas. I did not take the Digest at the time, but Harold and Norito both told me their best guesses, so I do not owe the Digest a loc. cit.

At some point Silence, you need to be able to find trust in information you find. To me, it took a lot of years of investigation; maybe you will take the same path. I have already told you the truth about what I know, some day you will understand.

Good luck in your journey.

Lance Birk


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## aquacorps (Sep 16, 2006)

Lance's book is one of favorite books. I must look at twice a week. Why did I get in to orchids? I like the pretty flowers. People should remember why they got in to orchids. Rusty.

When I heard the Learn'd Astronomer 

When I heard the learn'd astronomer;
When the proofs, the figures, were ranged in columns before me;
When I was shown the charts and the diagrams, to add, divide, and
measure them;
When I, sitting, heard the astronomer, where he lectured with much
applause in the lecture-room,
How soon, unaccountable, I became tired and sick;
Till rising and gliding out, I wander'd off by myself,
In the mystical moist night-air, and from time to time,
Look'd up in perfect silence at the stars.

-- Walt Whitman


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## kentuckiense (Sep 16, 2006)

From Mr. Birk's first response:


Lance Birk said:


> Meanwhile, stop trying so hard to impress people by your acquisition of book lists and a Web site displaying other people’s data



From Mr. Birk's latest response:


Lance Birk said:


> I have a lot of respect for the mission you have chosen, and that is the work on your Web site. While I have disagreements with some of your content, I have a lot of admiration for the scope of your project and I encourage you to continue.




Ok, so which one is it?


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## Heather (Sep 16, 2006)

kentuckiense said:


> Ok, so which one is it?



I like to think it was the latter. I thought that was a fine attempt at making amends, and trying to be part of an educational discussion.



(So shut it, Z, or we might have to ban you for real.) :evil:


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## PHRAG (Sep 16, 2006)

I agree with Heather. I may disagree with Mr. Birk's personality, and most of the things he says, but his last post was an attempt at least at trying to square things with Stephen. Whether he was successful or whether what he said is true, is not for me to say.

We don't all have to get along to reside in the same space, but when you all try to seperate us for the sake of "peace and love" and "pretty flowers", you don't allow people to learn anything. Try to remember that next time we have some spirited debate around here. 

Can you imagine if someone had interupted Lincoln and Douglas to tell them they should just go smell the roses? Lincoln would have laid the smackdown, I'm sure. : )


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## TADD (Sep 16, 2006)

Lance Birk said:


> I have to tell you how little faith I have in our education system.




Wait wait who is Lincoln Douglas?????? oke:


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## PHRAG (Sep 16, 2006)

TADD said:


> Wait wait who is Lincoln Douglas?????? oke:


 
Bass player for Slipknot. Do try to keep up.


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## kentuckiense (Sep 16, 2006)

Heather said:


> (So shut it, Z, or we might have to ban you for real.) :evil:



I'll just start SlipperChat.com!


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## PHRAG (Sep 16, 2006)

kentuckiense said:


> I'll just start SlipperChat.com!


 
I would so join that.


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## silence882 (Sep 17, 2006)

LB, I do appreciate the kind words regarding my site. Orchids is the one thing I have actually become interested in that I have really stuck with for a long time. I don't see any end in sight.

My wish about your book is that I could tell which habitat data was being provided from your having seen the habitats and which came from a different source. I am trying to limit the data I use to original material (with the exceptions of Cribb 1998 and Braem & Chiron 2003, which I hope to eventually phase out as I get more material). By using only material from people who have seen the plants in situ, I can ensure that I'm not reading an interpretation. If I knew which habitats you describe based on your observations from the field, I could really add to the info I provide. Will your new book be listing which species you saw when and where?

The citations I was talking about all would've been in the species section. I figured practically all the non-common-knowledge cultural stuff was original. The questions of what ranks to place various taxa at will probably never be generally agreed upon (and one could argue that it's good that there is no resolution since continued debate means more exploration of the species).

I love the photos and illustrations in Cribb's book and most of his discussions. I do wish he'd provided a bit more detail on the history of the taxa and his reasoning for some of the taxonomic choices he makes.

Range data has presented an especially difficult problem in making the site. I have found that Cribb's maps tend to shade in an area a bit larger than the documented distribution of the species. He may be purposely trying not to provide specific data for the ranges so that his book doesn't become a guidepost for collectors. I think the best way to nail down ranges, at least for the older species, is to make a systematic analysis of herbarium collections for paphs (the way Lucille McCook did in her doctoral thesis on Phrags). I'm not sure ranges for some of the widespread species (e.g. lowii, philippinense, appletonianum/bullenianum. etc>) will ever be certain, especially with the accellerating habitat destruction that is occuring.

I believe situations with conflicting data are the ones where a bibliography is crucial. That data has to be interpreted and the reader may want to analyze the original data to understand why the author has reached his/her conclusion.

--Stephen


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## Heather (Sep 17, 2006)

kentuckiense said:


> I'll just start SlipperChat.com!



John, Don't we already own that domain? oke:


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## Lance Birk (Sep 17, 2006)

Silence,

Here are the problems with trying to determine the range of any orchid species. Few, if any of the old collection data has correct locations cited. This is because collectors fiercely protect their collection sites, to guard against another collector finding and taking ‘their’ sources of livelihood. Some are close (but HOW close, who knows?); some are listed as coming from a completely different country. I, myself, listed P. celebesense as coming from a place a long way away from where I found it. This was an attempt to divert further collection, yet still give a general area description.

When I was in Bogor, in 1978, I photographed every Paphiopedilum herbarium sheet, and found very conflicting data on a great many of them. Many of those sheets were wrongly identified, had only a few words to explain a few basic requirements, and because of the location in Java, who knows how much useable data remains of that material. The director told me that the Japanese destroyed the entire contents of the herbarium during WWII, so we are left with a lot of missing data.

A person could spend a lifetime trying to locate every habitat of a single species, and then I am certain, he would miss a large number of them. Also, all this hype about species being wiped out, like those from Vietnam for example, is pure BS. I can assure you, that I could go there right now and find truckloads of any species given that pronouncement. Even Cribb has now said, “So far orchid species do not seem to have been exterminated in the quantities predicted some years ago”(P.Cribb,
www.kew.org/herbarium/orchid/ORN35/intro.htm). I have seen places, in Hong Kong and in Borneo, where local species have returned a year or so after being “wiped out” in particular locations. This is not to say that forest habitats are not being destroyed, and eventually many of them will be, but the reality of life is, it is next to impossible to actually destroy a single species of anything. Don’t forget just how small those orchid seeds are.

Your quote:
“I believe situations with conflicting data are the ones where a bibliography is crucial. That data has to be interpreted and the reader may want to analyze the original data to understand why the author has reached his/her conclusion.”

Unless you personally see every herb sheet yourself, in every herbarium, this will never happen. Also, the only information you will ever get from Kew is their own ‘interpretation’ of data from their vast collections of herb sheets…and you will never see those sheets.

There are some things we will never know, unfortunately, and it is frustrating to accept this realization.

As far as information I put in my new book, most of it gives habitat description in a way that does not pinpoint exact locations. Even still, I know collectors in SE Asia who continue to send their collectors into a particular area, searching for particular orchid species, and they will just keep searching until they find it. But this is really a good thing, actually, (one recently re-discovered the long-lost habitat of P. lawrenceanum). I have a whole lot more faith in the ability of commercial orchid collectors to propagate, and to vastly increase their numbers, and to ‘save’ any orchid species from the possibility of becoming ‘wiped out,’ than I do in the CITES dictate that prevents us from going into the jungle and salvaging those habitats under pressure. But my book is about all the ‘stuff’ that happens when you go out into the jungle and may not be exactly what you might have in mind about descriptive orchid habitats.

Lance


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