# Paph, helenae help



## abax (Jan 31, 2013)

Would some kind somebody with experience with this species offer a bit
of cultural advice. I have three of them and they don't seem to be doing
as well as I'd like. They're potted in clay pots with Orchiata, some perlite
and a bit of gravel in my greenhouse...lots of air movement, proper temps. and K-Lite about once a month right now. Am I missing something that
I should be doing?


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## eggshells (Jan 31, 2013)

We need more info. What do you mean by they are not doing so well? Leaves yellow? Growths stunted?


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## Rick (Jan 31, 2013)

How well do you expect them to be doing? Are you getting greedy?

My first one (from years ago) did the boom and bust thing that I attribute to high K.

I have 2 new ones from Springwater. I set up both in 4" baskets with both live and dead moss (sphagnum for dead moss) lots of gravel, and a bit of sand. One had added only one or two new growths the other has bloomed and added 4 or so new growths with roots poking out of the basket (it's carrying a seed pod now too).

You know how I feed and water. The one that is going fast is hanging up with the henryanums that are also going like gangbusters (medium to bright light for the faster ones). But there's also a couple of mounted phale species in the same spot, which really don't need much light at all. It's also close the wet pad so maybe a little cooler.

The slower one is probably getting less light, but other than that I don't think there's much difference. Maybe a bit warmer since its farthest from the wetpad.

I don't think I've had these for over two years so can't call this long term success.


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## wjs2nd (Jan 31, 2013)

I'm going to guess, without a better understanding of what not doing so well means, that the clay pots are drying out the mix to fast. Both the perlite and gravel would already keep the mix on the dry side.


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## paphreek (Jan 31, 2013)

wjs2nd said:


> I'm going to guess, without a better understanding of what not doing so well means, that the clay pots are drying out the mix to fast. Both the perlite and gravel would already keep the mix on the dry side.



I agree that drying out too fast could be a problem with this combination.


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## abax (Feb 1, 2013)

Well, no, they're not turning yellow, but they don't seem happy either. All
three are quite small, but have bloomed before. At the time I received them, I repotted into 4" clay orchid pots because that's what I had on hand. I thought they were staying too wet and the roots were rotting. Today I repotted and the roots were in fact rotted. Sooo I put them into 2" clay pots and have my fingers crossed. I keep thinking that I should douse them with Cleary's, but am unsure about getting the Orchiata too wet.
I have no experience with helenae so it's touch and go at this point.

Yes, Rick, I am greedy. All my other Paphs. are beautiful, healthy plants with several
in bloom and/or bud. These three are something of a disappointment for me because
they may die and it will be my fault. I won't even mention what I paid for them!


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## wjs2nd (Feb 1, 2013)

Did you clean up the rot off the roots? Paphs can be pretty strong. Clean roots and a new pot/mix my save them. How often are you water? Even being in the smaller pot you still may want to water less and getting something to promote rooting/root growth. Good luck! 

By the way, my helenae only looks so so. I don't think they really start to take off till they get well established.


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## The Mutant (Feb 1, 2013)

abax said:


> Well, no, they're not turning yellow, but they don't seem happy either. All
> three are quite small, but have bloomed before. At the time I received them, I repotted into 4" clay orchid pots because that's what I had on hand. I thought they were staying too wet and the roots were rotting. Today I repotted and the roots were in fact rotted. Sooo I put them into 2" clay pots and have my fingers crossed. I keep thinking that I should douse them with Cleary's, but am unsure about getting the Orchiata too wet.
> I have no experience with helenae so it's touch and go at this point.
> 
> ...


Maybe use a bamboo skewer to make sure the medium is not too wet when watering these three could be a good idea? 

I only have one helenae, but it's my second one, since the first one (with six un-bloomed fans) did absolutely nothing during the five months I had it. And I mean NOTHING. I sold it and shipped it bare rooted and discovered that not even the roots had done anything. My new helenae is growing well (it's only a single growth plant) and is a VERY thirsty little thing.


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## fibre (Feb 1, 2013)

Sorry guys, I can't agree. Look at those succulent leaves of the helenae! They don't need soo much water now. But they like lots of light and cool temps in winter.


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## NYEric (Feb 1, 2013)

Photos would help to get a picture of any problem. Some plants don't adapt well to changes, such as a new environment or culture. Patience is a part of growing orchids and so is losing some. :wink:


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## Rick (Feb 1, 2013)

Well regardless of what the tops look like, they should have good roots to do well.

These guys grow on limestone cliffs like henryanum and tranlineanum. Much of the roots often exposed to air like for a Phale.

I think the basket method is extra suitable for these guys, and I would highly recommend that method. If you move them to a 4 inch basket, Line with moss (i actually put a piece of plastic fence/screen across the bottom to keep stuff from falling out), add some of that coarse driveway limestone to fill up the basket about half way. Go out in the woods and get some cool looking moss off of the side of a tree or a rock outcropping, and wrap a wad of it around the base of the plant. Jam it into the gravel and tamp in place with some additional sphagnum. Add a tablespoon or so of sand, and tap and wash it into the moss. Add some additional live moss on top. Water enough to keep it slightly damp.

Maybe not even feed the next couple months except maybe with a weak kelp extract solution.


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## Stone (Feb 1, 2013)

fibre said:


> Sorry guys, I can't agree. Look at those succulent leaves of the helenae! They don't need soo much water now. But they like lots of light and cool temps in winter.



I agree with fibre. These do have succulent leaves and often grow as epiphytes and as such must rely on the vagueries (spelling?) of rainfall so they should be able to handle drying off well. When in doubt repot into a pot just big enough to hold the roots=very small, and get the roots happy again. But don't expect fast results


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## abax (Feb 2, 2013)

I did clean the rotted roots, but left one or two in order to anchor the plants
in the small pots. I have a bamboo skewer in all my pots and have always
had them there. Even though I checked the skewers, I apparently did over-water them in a pot that was simply too big for them. I feel badly about it
and hope they'll develop some new roots. I take losses hard.

Rick, I may try basket culture as you describe if and/or when the helenae
develop some roots. Right now I think I should just leave them alone and
not disturb them again. Is Cleary's a good idea? I don't see any rot on
the plants, but am worried about the spread of the rot.


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## The Mutant (Feb 2, 2013)

abax said:


> I did clean the rotted roots, but left one or two in order to anchor the plants
> in the small pots. I have a bamboo skewer in all my pots and have always
> had them there. Even though I checked the skewers, I apparently did over-water them in a pot that was simply too big for them. I feel badly about it
> and hope they'll develop some new roots. I take losses hard.
> ...


I've over-watered some Paphs too, despite using the skewers. The good thing I that I didn't manage to kill them at least, thanks to said skewers.

I hope they'll recover for you, they are such cute little buggers after all.


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## cnycharles (Feb 2, 2013)

you asked about cleary's twice, so I'll pop in. it's pretty safe for most plants that are in flower, and so generally acceptable for your plant

one thing that sometimes happens is we have a plant that has gotten 'checked' somewhere along the way. I noticed with some of my plants, that when I had underwatered them a bit too much or something like that or they got too cold, that they would sit and it would take a fair amount of time for them to recover and get going again (sometimes a long time). if you get a plant that generally looks 'okay' but it doesn't do anything, it could be that it has gotten a 'check' or 'stop' and it may take some time before it will do anything. I have a phal mariae that came from rice's orchids that I just about killed, and it sat there for a long time, and I was grateful that it didn't die... I kept more of an eye on it and it has now been increasing again


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## katzenhai2 (Feb 2, 2013)

So we have a plant with rotted roots (in other words a paph completely without roots). Read my post here - maybe it helps:
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=402396#post402396

The primary cause could also be a too dry substrate. When the paph roots begin to dry out and get wet again they will die and begin to rot. Bacteria will begin their work and the whole substrate condition will be anerobic - means a condition without enough air. This is the most fault people are doing and most of the time they even don't recognize it and believe the cause is too wet conditions. But paph roots can't be too wet! Living roots/leaves can't rot at all.

High humidity (70 - 80%) and foliage feeding can support the recovery (but beware - in high humidity the foliage feeding can support fungi because of the plants weakness). In the right conditions it shouldn't need much time (4 months). But on a window sill... 

BTW: What means "cleary's"? I'm not familiar with that term.


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## abax (Feb 3, 2013)

Katz, Cleary's 3336 is a systemic fungicide that is quite effective at controlling fungus infections of many kinds on all kinds of ornamental plants. Thank you for pointing out the thread.


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