# K-Lite Trial Parameters



## Ray (Dec 28, 2011)

Applied solution: 75 ppm N at every watering (I will track that off line).

Will be applied to all plants:


Paphs and phrags in S/H culture, maybe a few in Orchiata bark.
Phals in S/H culture.
Catts in Orchiata.
Vandaceous plants in LECA, EcoWeb, or nothing at all.
A variety of stuff mounted on EcoWeb or virgin cork bark.
I figure the plants in s/h culture will be the "deficiency bellwether", although I'm not expecting any.

I just installed a new customer-built 200 gpd, 2:1 RO system, and will be putting in a new Dosmatic pump tomorrow or Friday, so expect to start the first of the year.


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## Rick (Dec 28, 2011)

Are you using straight RO for your makeup water Ray?

What is your rate of application or renewal? Obviously SH is almost continuous, but renewed/flushed how often?

For bark and mounted plants how often are they fertilized and what happens between fertilizing events?


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## biothanasis (Dec 28, 2011)

Sounds like a good plan!!!!


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## Ray (Dec 28, 2011)

Rick said:


> Are you using straight RO for your makeup water Ray?
> 
> What is your rate of application or renewal? Obviously SH is almost continuous, but renewed/flushed how often?
> 
> For bark and mounted plants how often are they fertilized and what happens between fertilizing events?



Yep, straight RO.

The rate will be TBD. Everything in the greenhouse gets watered at the same time, dependent mostly upon the sunniness, unless it's been so gray for so long I just cannot wait. This time of year, it has been about 1-2 times a week, and everything gets absolutely flooded.

There is a fogger in the greenhouse to keep the RH up, but no additional misting or other irrigation is done to anything in between waterings.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Dec 28, 2011)

I got my fertilizer today...thanks Ray! I'll start using it this weekend. I'm loking foreward to finally going back to a 1 scoop fertilizer, instead of mixing MSU and CaNO3.


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## keithrs (Dec 29, 2011)

I will also be starting just after the start of the new year. 

My setup:

RO with tap added. 

75 PPM N @ every watering

I will be watering almost all plants.(I have a few terr. that are on a organic diet) Most are in Rock, LECA, CHC, or moss with mixtures of different amendments. 

All grown outside under 55% shade cloth with the exception of seedlings and Mex. which are grown indoors on a bakers rack with a room humidifier, watered 2 twice a week.

Outside temps are from 34-110 but mostly in-between 50-75 in the fall-winter and 60-90 in the spring-summer.

I will be stoping by the aquarium store to pick up KH/ALK test kit.

I test PH, Temp, and TDS of the water with every watering. 

I won't be adding any supplements intel I get the just of how this fertilizer performs(around May or so) with the exception of a sticky agent.

I have about 50/50 mix of mounted ver. potted plants. I only have two Paph in my collection @ this time. I have mostly Aussie Den.s and Catt. alliance with a mixture of others. I might wait intel March for the Aussie to finish blooming intel I start on them.


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## jtrmd (Dec 29, 2011)

I got my fertilizer today...thanks Ray!

I will also be starting just after the start of the new year too.

My setup:

tap water

75 PPM N @ every other week to 1x a month depending on weather,and 100 ppm N just about every watering in the spring/summer.I flush with plain tap water every third watering,if I remember.

75% of my plants are in bark,and the others are mounted. 

temps are from 50-75 in fall-winter and 70-90 in the spring-summer.

I dont add any supplements 


Ray-I was wondering if sometime down the line I need another pound or two,will there be some avaliable,or are we waiting to see the results?


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## Ray (Dec 30, 2011)

Got the new metering pump in yesterday, and it was nice and sunny today, so I started.

Mixed 5# to make up 15 gallons of concentrate, and am metering that at 67:1 to give me 75-80 ppm N. I borrowed an EC meter, got 0.01 mS with my plain water, 0.54 with the fertilizer (right in the ballpark), and the applied solution pH was 5.7.

Nothing has croaked in the last 6 hours!


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## gonewild (Dec 30, 2011)

Ray said:


> Nothing has croaked in the last 6 hours!



Have you seen any improved growth yet? 
Are they whistling a happier tune?


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## cnycharles (Dec 30, 2011)

the usps tracking this morning said my box wouldn't be here today, but now says it's delivered! guess I'll have to go and pick it up and try it out. I know my plants will be happy if I just give them some feed on a regular basis


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## SlipperKing (Dec 30, 2011)

Got my as well today. Thanks Ray. Will figure on 75 ppm of N as well. That might help the comparison between growers


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## keithrs (Dec 30, 2011)

Got mine today! Thanks again Ray.


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## Rick (Dec 30, 2011)

I was out of the office the last 2 days, so mine is probably sitting on my desk.

I'll have to go in tomorrow and check:wink:


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## paphreek (Dec 31, 2011)

Got mine yesterday!


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## Ray (Dec 31, 2011)

OMG!!! It's AMAZING!

Went to the greenhouse this morning, and everything was still there - just like yesterday.

Getting serious for a moment, I think I'm likely to fall under the "spell" that befalls a lot of growers with "something new".

Over that last few months, I have not been particularly good about keeping up a reasonable watering/feeding and general care regimen, thanks primarily to health issues and the turmoil of the Holidays. Now that I have gotten past all that, and have installed a new RO system and metering pump, and we have begun this trial, I imagine I will be far more attentive, and I expect my plants to do better. So can I attribute that to the fertilizer? Probably not.

I remember seeing this when the MSU fertilizer hit the scene - it was absolutely magic to some, when in reality, they just got more conscientious.

I am not in a position to have "control plants" getting my old regimen while we do this. Is anyone doing so?


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## cnycharles (Dec 31, 2011)

I don't know if I'll have a control.. if they start looking good then I'll know that something is better!  of course I'm repotting almost everything into orchiata plus other stuff so i'm sure that will help.

Ray, on another note, I saw that you suggested to make a stock solution since the fertilizer parts aren't evenly placed... If I put one pound into one gallon of water, how much stock do I need to place into a gallon of water to reach approx. 75ppm of N? My city water has an extremely low tds, also, so whatever amount you would put into your water would be the same for mine (for a final tds reading). I'm not sure if my meter reads micro-siemens

thanks,
charles


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## Hera (Dec 31, 2011)

Suggestion time. Maybe the trialers should all purchase the same plants (variety of species and hybrids) from the same stock and conduct trials on control and new fertilizer plants. Side by side comparison and same plants in same conditions should give reasonable feedback. If everyone buys the same stock of will allow for the dissimilarity of water, environment etc. You'll be conducting mini experiments within your own environment and the larger results of the overall experiments can be compared between you. The plants wouldn't have to be expensive or exotic. Just something that you are all familiar with and grows reliably.


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## gonewild (Dec 31, 2011)

Ray said:


> OMG!!! It's AMAZING!
> 
> I am not in a position to have "control plants" getting my old regimen while we do this. Is anyone doing so?



Ray you have enough history and experience to know if the fertilizer has a different effect than when you were last fertilizing on a good schedule. Sure if you haven't been fertilizing then any formula will give increased growth but you will know if there is a significant difference with the K-Lite.


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## Ray (Dec 31, 2011)

cnycharles said:


> Ray, on another note, I saw that you suggested to make a stock solution since the fertilizer parts aren't evenly placed... If I put one pound into one gallon of water, how much stock do I need to place into a gallon of water to reach approx. 75ppm of N? My city water has an extremely low tds, also, so whatever amount you would put into your water would be the same for mine (for a final tds reading). I'm not sure if my meter reads micro-siemens
> 
> thanks,
> charles


The info on page 6 of the "K-Lite Trial" thread will help: Click Here


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## Ray (Dec 31, 2011)

gonewild said:


> Ray you have enough history and experience to know if the fertilizer has a different effect than when you were last fertilizing on a good schedule. Sure if you haven't been fertilizing then any formula will give increased growth but you will know if there is a significant difference with the K-Lite.


Maybe so Lance, but the scientist in me wants to be "cleaner" about it.


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## cnycharles (Dec 31, 2011)

Thanks Ray, I had forgotten about that page already (d'oh!)


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## jtrmd (Dec 31, 2011)

started today!


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## gonewild (Dec 31, 2011)

Ray said:


> Maybe so Lance, but the scientist in me wants to be "cleaner" about it.



That's good. However once positive results are observed from the formula then someone (you?) can do a real scientific trial if desired. This current test will return real world "non provable" results that actually mean more than a scientific trial as far as what is good for hobby collections. Either the users notice "better than before" results or they don't.


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## Rick (Dec 31, 2011)

Ok went and picked mine up today. Nice and sunny so gave everyone a shot.

Usage rate the same as what I was doing with the 3 separate components. About 37.5ppm N (I guess that's 1/4 tsp per gal). And adding a 1/4 tsp/gal of kelp extract.

It's mixed in ~10% well water (hardness about 40ppm, alkalinity 20ppm as CaCO3) which is soft water.

I'll feed once a week as long as its mostly sunny or warm. I also water/mist a few times a week with 10% well water. Mounted plants get misted almost every day with 10% well water.

If I get ambitious over the next few days, I'll set up a couple of small control groups with some lowii and calosum seedlings in a CHC mix in regular pots, and feed at the same rate as above with the plain old MSU in straight RO, but with the kelp extract addition. (Just like in the old days)


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## keithrs (Jan 3, 2012)

I started today....

I made a liquid fertilizer stock with a final NPK of 2.4-.2-.2-2-.6. Applying @ 2.5 TBS per gal per Rays calculator @ 75 PPM N.

RO water has a PH of 5.86 and PPM of 5

I added the fertilizer to my RO and got a PH of 4.63 and a T PPM's of 351

Added 10% tap water and PH went to 6.11 and T PPM's of 390.


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## Rick (Jan 3, 2012)

keithrs said:


> I started today....
> 
> I made a liquid fertilizer stock with a final NPK of 2.4-.2-.2-2-.6. Applying @ 2.5 TBS per gal per Rays calculator @ 75 PPM N.
> 
> ...



I like the pH of the 10% tap water version much better.


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## Justin (Jan 3, 2012)

*Erwina Relapse*

Had my first erwina relapse today since starting low-K four months ago. Showed up on three big roth seedlings in the same tray. Erwina decimated my collection last winter and into the summer, until I started on low-K and repeated Phyton-27 treatments at that time. 

However, this happened the day after overhead watering (splashing plants), late on a cold day,and I also had stopped putting a fan directly on my seedlings after watering, which I had been doing all this time. Still no signs on the soft new growths of any other plants except these three in proximity. 

I still can say the low-K led to a fantastic fall growing season with so many green, strong new leaves and no rot that whole time. It's too early to draw other conclusions, other than in my conditions nutrition isn't everything and other cultural precautions must still be observed. And these plants will be fine after surgery, just set back a few months. If it is isolated to these three I will be very happy with the low-K plan.


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## Justin (Jan 3, 2012)

Forgot to mention this was with 1 part MSU, 1 part Calcium Nitrate, and 1 part epsom salts, not Ray's formula. Fed at approx. 1.5 tsp per gallon to straight R/O, with final TDS of around 450. 

I do add just a few grains of potassium carbonate to raise pH, but this is on the order of a few grains of powder. 

I have also been occasionally mixing in some tap water.


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## Rick (Jan 3, 2012)

Justin said:


> Had my first erwina relapse today since starting low-K four months ago. Showed up on three big roth seedlings in the same tray. Erwina decimated my collection last winter and into the summer, until I started on low-K and repeated Phyton-27 treatments at that time.
> 
> However, this happened the day after overhead watering (splashing plants), late on a cold day,and I also had stopped putting a fan directly on my seedlings after watering, which I had been doing all this time. Still no signs on the soft new growths of any other plants except these three in proximity.
> 
> I still can say the low-K led to a fantastic fall growing season with so many green, strong new leaves and no rot that whole time. It's too early to draw other conclusions, other than in my conditions nutrition isn't everything and other cultural precautions must still be observed. And these plants will be fine after surgery, just set back a few months. If it is isolated to these three I will be very happy with the low-K plan.




The "clasic" Erwinia is not obvious in this photo Justin. The brown streaks on the sides of the leaf look dry, and I see a soggy spot near the end of the leaf, but not the typical wet brown area at the base of the leaf near the stem. Also erwinia has a clasic "fermented" sickly sweet smell. This could be some other type of rot. Also if this is an old leaf (mostly grown before you changed up the food) it wouldn't be out of the question to still have some weakness expressed. I have a sukhakulii that developed round rot spots in the center of every leaf over the last couple of years, but only the last two (started less than 6 months ago) are blemish free so far.


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## Rick (Jan 3, 2012)

Justin said:


> Forgot to mention this was with 1 part MSU, 1 part Calcium Nitrate, and 1 part epsom salts, not Ray's formula. Fed at approx. 1.5 tsp per gallon to straight R/O, with final TDS of around 450.
> 
> I do add just a few grains of potassium carbonate to raise pH, but this is on the order of a few grains of powder.
> 
> I have also been occasionally mixing in some tap water.



I would stop with the K carbonate and use your tap water to raise pH. That way you can use the alkalinity from your tap water to raise pH and not get as much K in the process.


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## Justin (Jan 3, 2012)

Hi Rick, 

Certainly could be another kind of bacterial rot. 

This is the very first sign of infection, the orange spots turn wet and brown, and there is a distinct odor as well. Spreads down the leaf very quickly too, and can reach the leaf axil within a day. Either way it's deadly and contagious.

Here's another pic on a newer leaf, sorry for the bad focus in the pic, but you can see the cells collapsing and the mushy spots that occurred in one day. Have you seen this before?


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## Rick (Jan 3, 2012)

That's weird to see it start near the outer edge or center of the leaf and work its way back to the axial. It also is weir for looking somewhat symmetrical.

I had something that looked like this recently on the exul, but I attributed it to getting burned from the heater it was next too since all the bad leaves were on the side of the plant that got a blast from the backwash of my propane heater.
(It's almost as bad as NY Eric leaving his sangii on the stove).

So consider either heater or light burn too.


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## cnycharles (Jan 3, 2012)

it does look too symmetrical for usual start of rots, but cold water sitting on leaves is a very nice way to decimate any plant (especially without air movement). at work we have one of the greenhouses that drips a lot in winter/early spring, and when the temps are very cool the cold dripping water destroys whole flood benches of nice, flowering plants (of any kind). 

it does look like there was previous weakness on your leaves, and the very cold wet conditions made it easy for a bug to get a running start. late watering might be gotten away with if water is warm, air is warm, and there is lots of air movement. if you don't have any of these then you might be well off spraying with physan every night


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## Justin (Jan 3, 2012)

Now that you mention it, may be cold damage too, my plants got briefly exposed for a few minutes but didn't think it was enough to hurt them. Could be mystery solved. Thanks.


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## Rick (Jan 3, 2012)

Justin said:


> Forgot to mention this was with 1 part MSU, 1 part Calcium Nitrate, and 1 part epsom salts, not Ray's formula. Fed at approx. 1.5 tsp per gallon to straight R/O, with final TDS of around 450.
> 
> I do add just a few grains of potassium carbonate to raise pH, but this is on the order of a few grains of powder.
> 
> I have also been occasionally mixing in some tap water.



Also if you are using 0.5 (1/2) tsp each of MSU, CaNO3 and MgSO4 per gallon then you are still giving over 100 ppm K and about 200 ppm N. That's a lot. 

Spring summer I was recommending 1/4 tsp of each keeping N to about 100 and K under 50 ppm. By Fall I was down to 1/8 tsp of each per gal so half that again.


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## Justin (Jan 3, 2012)

Rick said:


> Also if you are using 0.5 (1/2) tsp each of MSU, CaNO3 and MgSO4 per gallon then you are still giving over 100 ppm K and about 200 ppm N. That's a lot.
> 
> Spring summer I was recommending 1/4 tsp of each keeping N to about 100 and K under 50 ppm. By Fall I was down to 1/8 tsp of each per gal so half that again.



Thanks, I'll try that.


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## keithrs (Jan 3, 2012)

Rick said:


> I like the pH of the 10% tap water version much better.


I do too... I would still like the PH a little higher...6.5 range. I wanted to see how much of a PH swing I would get with this fertilizer on RO water. This is by far the most acidic fertilizer I have used. 

On a side note.... I may lower my rate to 50 PPM N intel spring is here with more avg. temps. Today it was 85 but Friday is a H of 63 listed. I don't have much growth going on ether.


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## Rick (Jan 3, 2012)

keithrs said:


> On a side note.... I may lower my rate to 50 PPM N intel spring is here with more avg. temps. Today it was 85 but Friday is a H of 63 listed. I don't have much growth going on ether.



Spoiled rotten!! I know its colder up North, but my high today was about 35 and going down to 20 tonight. (Obviously its not that cold in the GH).

I actually have quite a bit growing


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## cnycharles (Jan 3, 2012)

hmm, today started at 15, and is heading to 0!(F)


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## Ray (Jan 4, 2012)

Justin - what is the temperature of your irrigation water?

Several years ago I put an aquarium heater in my RO tank to boost the temperature to 75°, and the plants responded beautifully.

Cold water can cause plants to "stall" in their growth, and if too cold, can cause mesophyll collapse in the leaves. I don't know that anyone has ever done a "delta-T" study to see how much of a difference is required for such damage, but I'm sure it's not all that big of a chill.


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## gonewild (Jan 4, 2012)

Ray said:


> Justin - what is the temperature of your irrigation water?
> 
> Several years ago I put an aquarium heater in my RO tank to boost the temperature to 75°, and the plants responded beautifully.
> 
> Cold water can cause plants to "stall" in their growth, and if too cold, can cause mesophyll collapse in the leaves. I don't know that anyone has ever done a "delta-T" study to see how much of a difference is required for such damage, but I'm sure it's not all that big of a chill.



Water temperature can have a huge impact. Cold water on hot leaf tissue would cause the type of damage in the photos. Ideally water that hits foliage should be close to the air temperature. Think about rain falling through the atmosphere before it hits a leaf. It hot weather the rain drop is probably a little cooler than the air temperature and in cold weather the temperature is probably a little warmer. (?)


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## jtrmd (Jan 4, 2012)

I used to have issues just like that with the cold water in the past.It drove me nuts,until I put the 2 together.


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## keithrs (Jan 4, 2012)

Rick said:


> Spoiled rotten!! I know its colder up North, but my high today was about 35 and going down to 20 tonight. (Obviously its not that cold in the GH).
> 
> I actually have quite a bit growing



The lows many be more important.... Lows this week have been in the low 50 but before that we had lows in the high 30 low 40 for some time and may have stalled my plants.


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## keithrs (Jan 4, 2012)

Ray said:


> Justin - what is the temperature of your irrigation water?
> 
> Several years ago I put an aquarium heater in my RO tank to boost the temperature to 75°, and the plants responded beautifully.
> 
> Cold water can cause plants to "stall" in their growth, and if too cold, can cause mesophyll collapse in the leaves. I don't know that anyone has ever done a "delta-T" study to see how much of a difference is required for such damage, but I'm sure it's not all that big of a chill.



I can say my water yesterday was at 60.... It has a big impact on how well the RO system works too... I'm only getting about 1/2 output. 

If I had a dosing pump I could use a ATO on my holding tank and warm the water, but as it stands I need to mix the fertilizer than use it all. I don't know how long it would take to warm a 20 gal holding tank. I imagine quite a while.

A killer for me is water sitting in the leaves at night.....


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## Ray (Jan 4, 2012)

I got around the cold water slowing the RO system by building one with twice the capacity (and half the waster water, too), but pump from a heated RO storage tank. 3 watts or aquarium heater per gallon seems to do quite well.

I keep the GH at a 60° minimum, but the water is at least 70°.


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## Rick (Jan 4, 2012)

keithrs said:


> A killer for me is water sitting in the leaves at night.....



This killer should go away as your plants develop with the low K diet.


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## Justin (Jan 4, 2012)

Rick...I'll try to lay off the potassium carbonate, tap water definitely raises the pH. Will reduce feeding rate too.

Ray, i haven't measured the irrigation water temp but I know it gets quite chilly. I might have to do something about that.

There hasn't been any spread of the symptoms I had since yesterday--I'm certain it was cold air exposure plus cold water sitting on the leaves that lead to the cellular collapse on the leaves of these few plants.

A lot of great learning here, thanks everyone for the input.


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## Ray (Jan 11, 2012)

Question for the gang - are you, and if so, how are you - keeping track of the trial?

So far, I am keeping a spreadsheet calendar, and just check off dates I feed and water. If nothing else, it helps keep me up-to-date with watering.


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## cnycharles (Jan 11, 2012)

I should get a calendar and keep track of watering/feeding


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jan 11, 2012)

I just use my memory....I'm lousy at taking notes. While I started Jan 1 with the new mix, I had been reducing my K by blending MSU with CaNO3, alternating occasionally with straight CaNO3 (I intend to still do that) for the previous 2 months. So far, so good....most plants are doing better than before, but I won't claim success just yet.


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## Rick (Jan 11, 2012)

So far my records have been mostly posts on this forum.

But I also drug out the log book I started years ago, and started a new page.

Probably will be more like a running dialoge rather than notes in a spreadsheet.


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## abax (Jan 12, 2012)

I keep a calendar in my gh and always mark when I fertilize and when I flush. Seems to me you have to have that information in order to set a routine to follow and accurately observe results. I also have a 40 gal. water heater in my gh set at 75F. I suspect the variables of water temp. and gh temps. just might be very important
in this experiment. What say you all?


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## jtrmd (Jan 12, 2012)

Ray said:


> Question for the gang - are you, and if so, how are you - keeping track of the trial?
> 
> So far, I am keeping a spreadsheet calendar, and just check off dates I feed and water. If nothing else, it helps keep me up-to-date with watering.



I have a calender that I keep track of watering,feeding,flushing,etc.My memory is too bad to wing it,I would be a little lost without writing it down.


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## Ray (Jan 12, 2012)

abax said:


> I suspect the variables of water temp. and gh temps. just might be very important in this experiment. What say you all?


My guess is that water temperature is a matter of "don't let it be too cold when it hits the plants".

Cold water can cause a plant to stop growing when it might otherwise be doing so, but warmer water - short of "hot" to prevent damage, of course - will likely not be sufficient impetus to reverse that, or bring a plant out of dormancy.

Whatever the water temperature used for irrigation, it should pretty much come to a constant temperature across the board in a fairly short time, once applied.

Greenhouse temperature should certainly play a role, as plants' metabolic rates are directly connected to temperature (and light levels, too).


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## emydura (Jan 14, 2012)

I haven't been using the fertiliser you guys are currently trialing so my results are not that relevant to your study. But I have been trialing my own low K fertilising regime. I have been combining the Trio CMB foliar fertiliser with the MAGAMP fertliser I had been using for the last year. I mostly use the TRIO-CMB as a foliar fertiliser although every fourth watering I also use it on the potting mix but at a much lower concentration. 

Trio CMB foliar 

http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/products/liquid-fertilisers/trio-cmb-foliar.html

MAGAMP

http://www.orchidtrays.com.au/view_product.php?id=229

The MAGAMP contains the following - N7, K5, P17.5, Mg7. The K is a bit higher than I like but a lot lower than previous and combined with the CMB a lot less than 5 overall. The P is a bit high but the CMB Foliar contains no P.

I have been using it since the start of December, so about 6 or 7 weeks now. The results are very encouraging. I'm currently seeing a lot of new growths particularly amongst the multi-florals. More than I would say is normal. They are all popping out new leads at the same time which seems to be way too much of a co-incidence to be unrelated to the new fertilisering regime. Something has triggered all these new growths and I don't know what else it could be. This was the main reason I wanted to change as I was finding it difficult to get a lot of my plants to multiply. 

Plants seem to be growing better as well although I need more time to assess this. They certainly look healthier. I bought a tiny roth seedling 8 or 9 years ago that had never increased in size. It would be double the size now and looking very strong.

Anyway these results are a bit preliminary. I should have a better gauge in April when the growing season has ended.


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## gonewild (Jan 14, 2012)

emydura said:


> I have been combining the Trio CMB foliar fertiliser with the MAGAMP fertliser I had been using for the last year.
> 
> I have been using it since the start of December, so about 6 or 7 weeks now.



That's a great report!

Can you please clarify how long you have been using this ratio/formula?
Were you using MAGAMP for 1 year and then 6 weeks ago began to add CMB?
Or were you using a completely different fertilizer before 6 weeks ago?


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## emydura (Jan 14, 2012)

gonewild said:


> That's a great report!
> 
> Can you please clarify how long you have been using this ratio/formula?
> Were you using MAGAMP for 1 year and then 6 weeks ago began to add CMB?
> Or were you using a completely different fertilizer before 6 weeks ago?



I have been using the MAGAMP for about a year now and just started using the CMB in the last 6 weeks. Prior to using CMB I was combining other fertilisers which had much higher K. Now I have just restricted it to those two. I noticed that when I started using MAGAMP that my plants improved quite a bit so I still wanted to include it. Plus being able to attach it straight to your hose is such a labor saving option. Adding the CMB as well as reducing the K levels have just improved it further. Because of CMB my plants are also getting much higher levels of Ca.

Currently I fertilise with each watering (about every 4 or 5 days). My fertilising cycle is as follows -

Schedule - ..... Potting mix ........ Foliage

Water 1 - ...... Magamp .............. CMB
Water 2 - ...... Magamp ........
Water 3 - ...... Magamp .............. CMB
Water 4 - ...... CMB ........

Every now and then I will skip the MAGAMP to flush out the pot.

I was told by Nutri-tech that plants can absorb nutients 12 to 15 times more efficiently through the leaves. I can also fertilise at much higher concentrations through the leaves (5x). So I assume more fertiliser is coming from the CMB than the Magamp. 

The CMB is made up of the following

Calcium. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17%
Magnesium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4.0%
Boron . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.25%
Total Nitrogen (as nitrate). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12.1%
Total Potassium (as organic K). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.45%
Sodium. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.1%
Kelp and Fulvic Acid . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 19%


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## gonewild (Jan 14, 2012)

emydura said:


> Prior to using CMB I was combining other fertilisers which had much higher K. Now I have just restricted it to those two.
> 
> Are you supplying other micros like Iron?


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## Rick (Jan 14, 2012)

emydura said:


> I'm currently seeing a lot of new growths particularly amongst the multi-florals. More than I would say is normal. They are all popping out new leads at the same time which seems to be way too much of a co-incidence to be unrelated to the new fertilisering regime. Something has triggered all these new growths and I don't know what else it could be. This was the main reason I wanted to change as I was finding it difficult to get a lot of my plants to multiply.



I thought that the kelp (with it's load of phyto hormones) might be the reason I was seeing all the new growths too. CMB also has kelp extract in it.
 
But SlipperKing has also been getting a boost in new growths and not using kelp at all.

So it will be interesting to see if the new growth phenomena happens just as frequently for the non-kelp users.


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## emydura (Jan 15, 2012)

gonewild said:


> emydura said:
> 
> 
> > Prior to using CMB I was combining other fertilisers which had much higher K. Now I have just restricted it to those two.
> ...


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## gonewild (Jan 15, 2012)

emydura said:


> gonewild said:
> 
> 
> > No, I'm not. The CMB contains seaweed. Does that not contain many of the micros including Iron? Or do you think I need to add it to my fertilising regime?
> ...


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## Ray (Jan 15, 2012)

Many fertilizers have iron EDTA...


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## gonewild (Jan 15, 2012)

Ray said:


> Many fertilizers have iron EDTA...



Yeah, EDTA is a type of chelated iron.
I assume if the fertilizer contains any form of iron they would list it on their label?

If the fertilizer does not list iron I would add iron.


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## Rick (Jan 15, 2012)

gonewild said:


> Yeah, EDTA is a type of chelated iron.
> I assume if the fertilizer contains any form of iron they would list it on their label?
> 
> If the fertilizer does not list iron I would add iron.



EDTA is a chelating organic chemical, but it doesn't always come in association with iron or any other heavy metal. It's typically purchased as sodium EDTA for lab use.


As opposed to the macro nutrients NPK, Ca, Mg, Na, SO4, Cl, HCO3, and sometimes silicates, iron is normally only found at much less than 1ppm in the environment. And its not found in plants in concentrations similar to those of the macro nutrients. Hence considered at micro nutrient. They are all important in their own way. 

All the micros are fairly reactive biologically, so they are easier to overdose than the macros.


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## Rick (Jan 15, 2012)

For instance your typical plant contains 40X the number of magnesium atoms in it than iron. Boron is just as common in plant tissues as Fe.

Looking through the list of elements that excess K causes deficiencies for:
N
Ca
Mg

Fe
Zn
Cu
are on the list. So before adding iron I would see how the plants do with reduced K for unlocking some of those critical micronutrients.


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## gonewild (Jan 15, 2012)

Rick said:


> So before adding iron I would see how the plants do with reduced K for unlocking some of those critical micronutrients.



That makes sense.


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## emydura (Jan 15, 2012)

gonewild said:


> emydura said:
> 
> 
> > I have never actually known why Iron is considered a micro nutrient. It is very important. I would not want to starve the plants for Iron.
> ...


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## gonewild (Jan 15, 2012)

emydura said:


> gonewild said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks Lance. I might see if I can get more information on the total makeup of the MAGAMP. It may already include these trace elements.
> ...


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## Stone (Jan 15, 2012)

All (good quality) orchid barks in Australia are comosted with additions of Iron sulphate to detoxify the bark and to supply Fe. Because the Iron is firmly held, and little is lost to leaching, the supply of Fe to plants will last for several years without need for further additions. Availability of Fe drops markedly once pH rises above about 6.5 but this also depends on plant sp.

I don't think I have never seen iron deficiency symptoms (or Ca for that matter) in orchids regardless of what they are growing in so presumably they are efficient in Fe uptake and probably all other nutrients. Mg deficiency seems to be the most common problem for me but I'm tryng to take remedial action. Has anyone had this problem and how long before improvement was noticed?

It is interesting to note the improvements David has experienced using Magamp. From what I rememeber Magamp (MagnesiumAmmoniumPhosphate) has all its N in Ammonium form. This is the same kind of general improvement I saw when I increased Ammonium/Urea as I mentioned in the other thread. The large increase in Mg also may be playing a part.

Mike


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## Ray (Jan 16, 2012)

Our K-Lite formula (like the MSUs) contains Fe-EDTA specifically to add the iron.


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## gonewild (Jan 16, 2012)

Just my opinion but I think plants benefit from foliar application of iron. 

Over the years I have noticed iron deficiencies even though there is plenty of iron in the root zone. The deficiencies are quickly corrected with foliar application of iron. In the spirit of the K-lite concept maybe the high level of potassium in the soil is blocking the iron uptake by the roots?

It is not easy to see iron deficiency in some plants and orchids especially.


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## abax (Jan 30, 2012)

*For my small part of the experiment, I began today*

gearing down gradually on the K in my fertilizer solution.
I'm using 1/8 tsp. Jack's Pro, 1/8 tsp. calcium nitrate and
1/8 tsp. epsom salts per gallon of water. I'm going to try
this change-over slowly and then switch over to the K-Lite.
I have quite a few orchids in bloom/spike right now and it
seems to me that a rapid change could be damaging...or
maybe not. Anyway, it seems to me that gradual change
might be better for the plants. It makes sense to me;
how about y'all?


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## Ray (Jan 30, 2012)

Part of the potential issue with potassium is its accumulation in media ("salt buildup") and in plant tissues, which may lead to deficiencies in other minerals.

In my opinion, gradually reducing the addition merely prolongs that, while "going cold turkey" aims to remedy it, and won't be the shock to the plants' systems, as they and the media probably have stored too much already.

Besides, there are about a dozen of us that already use it, and none have reported issues....


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## goldenrose (Jan 30, 2012)

I wouldn't wean, cold turkey is the way that I'd go!


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## abax (Jan 31, 2012)

O.k. so I'm wrong. Cold turkey it is when I get K-lite
before next fert. day which is Sunday.


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## keithrs (Jan 31, 2012)

I flushed my plants for a month before I started with K-lite..... I actually had plants start throwing spikes and putting out new roots during that time. But I had very little veg growth. I'm not sure if all that was caused by temp drop, flushing or both. I have used the k-lite sparingly but everything seems to be A-OK.


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## emydura (Feb 3, 2012)

gonewild said:


> emydura said:
> 
> 
> > Let us know what you find out. I googled MAGAMP but did not have much luck finding the contents.
> ...


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## gonewild (Feb 3, 2012)

emydura said:


> gonewild said:
> 
> 
> > The recommended dosage is insane (12g/L). I would go through a whole box every time I used it. But I think this dosage is more for plants showing severe signs of depletion of these trace elements.
> ...


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## emydura (Feb 3, 2012)

gonewild said:


> emydura said:
> 
> 
> > Is that recommended dosage for foliar application or as irrigation?
> ...


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## gonewild (Feb 3, 2012)

emydura said:


> gonewild said:
> 
> 
> > Irrigation. It is meant to be a one-off rather than a regular occurrence. It says the application can last for 2 years. This makes it difficult it to know how much to use if you want to apply it regularly.
> ...


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## gonewild (Feb 3, 2012)

If your micros have 2.3% iron.
If the K-lite formula has .1548% iron
Divide 2.3 by .1548 and you will see how much to add of the micros to have the same strength.
So if you use 1 tsp of the K-lite (or similar) you would add 1/15 tsp of the micros.

I think? 
It's been a long day....


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## emydura (Feb 4, 2012)

gonewild said:


> If your micros have 2.3% iron.
> If the K-lite formula has .1548% iron
> Divide 2.3 by .1548 and you will see how much to add of the micros to have the same strength.
> So if you use 1 tsp of the K-lite (or similar) you would add 1/15 tsp of the micros.
> ...



My head hurts. I think it will be very hard for me to match exactly what is in the K-lite formula as I have fertiliser coming from a couple of sources - some of it through irrigation and some of it through foliar. Plus it is hard for me to gauge how much is coming through the MAGAMP. So all I am only interested in ensuring my plants are getting enough of the micros. 0.1548% is 2/3's of bugger all. So I don't think I need to add much. Maybe even less than I was planning. I am sure Rick has says in the past that it is very hard to overdo the macros (k aside) but it is very easy to provide toxic levels of the micros. So I think it is just a matter of providing a small amount and assessing it from there. 

The tap water contains some of these micros which may be enough. Here is a breakdown of Canberra's water -

Iron - 0.033	mg/L
Manganese -	0.010	mg/L
Aluminium -	0.033	mg/L
Copper - 0.018	mg/L
Lead - 0.0004	mg/L


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## Ray (Feb 4, 2012)

I think we can get ourselves into a confusing loop if we're not careful.

This study is based, to a significant extent, on the balance between nutrients, not just their absolute concentrations. 

If plants were so "transparent" to the solutions they were exposed to, we'd expect the mineral content of them to change with what is applied to them. To some degree they are - provide a lot of nitrogen, and the plant will take it up, but that doesn't hold true with all minerals. Some are no longer absorbed (or are, at a very reduced rate) when internal supplies are sufficient. Others are preferentially taken up and stored, even if the plant doesn't have an immediate need for them.

I read a summary of a study done on rainfall chemistry in central Panama, and while we're on the subject of iron, it showed rainfall containing 0.05-0.3 ppm Fe, while the dried plant tissue of epiphytes in the area contained the equivalent of 1400 ppm.

That's one reason I like to think of feeding plants in the same vein as calorie-counting in people. Heaving feeding infrequently is like binge eating. A lower-"calorie", steady diet is better for the overall health of the being. When it comes to the minor nutrients, as long as you get "some", "every now and then", you're probably OK.


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## Ray (Feb 24, 2012)

Went back and reread parts of this thread.

Be very careful with the addition of trace elements to your feeding regimen. It is far easier to overdose plants on them than stifle them through deficient feeding.

Products like that and Scott's STEM are intended to be used at very widely-spaced intervals (like Emydura's product' 2 years) to supplement a total lack of them.

I would not consider the reduced levels in the K-Lite to be any sort of issue whatsoever, as they are provided at every feeding, the fertilizer, like the MSU blends, is designed for continual feeding, and the simple fact is, the plants really don't need that much of them.


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## emydura (Feb 24, 2012)

Ray said:


> Went back and reread parts of this thread.
> 
> Be very careful with the addition of trace elements to your feeding regimen. It is far easier to overdose plants on them than stifle them through deficient feeding.
> 
> ...



Thanks Ray. I will use it very sparingly.


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## Roth (Feb 24, 2012)

For the micros, it depends on your situation, and your input water ( always remember that RO or DI removes some of the ions, but not all, and a substantial amount can be left of some of them, even up to phytotoxic levels as boron). But orchids definitely benefit fro micros supplementation, if you know exactly what you are doing. 

The symptoms of micros deficiencies in orchids are exceedingly tricky, because some things like zinc will show a general plant chlorosis, and the new leaf still emerges dark green albeit small and narrow, which, for other crops, tells it is NOT zinc. Orchids are slow growing, they are using specific pathways more similar to succulents and some palms, so the 'immobile' elements can in fact move inside the plant.

This said, figures about iron in the potting mix vs. in the leaves are most of the time wrong. iron can be soluble, and easily detected in a water extract of the potting mix/soil in the forest. It can be insoluble in various states, and in some of those states, like iron oxide, the plant's roots still can extract it. In the latter case, a water extract will show no iron at all, or a very tiny amount, but in fact the plants still can extract, and even be poisoned by it. This is true for most ions anyway.


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## Marc (Apr 10, 2012)

Could use some help please with a concentrate calculations, I think I got the numbers right but I hope that one of our experts can cofirm if I got my numbers right.

As the K-lite is not a homogenous mixture I want to start working with a concentrate. I've got a 5 liter Jerrycan for this

I've got about 500 grams of K-lite


500 gr. K-lite * 13%N = 65000mgr. pure N

65000mgr. pure N / 5kg H2O = 13000ppm N solution

If I would like to dilute this concentrate to 100ppm N I need to dilute it with a factor x130.

I normally water in a bucket which holds 7 liters of water.

So to get a 100ppm N solution in that bucket I need to add 0.053 liter of the concentrate to the water in the bucket.

Correct?

2nd question would this ammount of salt actually dissolve in 5 liters of water. Or do I need to redo the calculation at a lower concentration?

Any other parameter that I missed that I should pay attention to?


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## terryros (Apr 10, 2012)

After getting my chemistry confirmed with help from Ray, I do the following:

1. Make a 10% stock solution of K-Llite. I make smaller volumes that only last me about a week so that I am always working with fairly fresh material. I even keep the K-Lite containers and my stock solution in a refrigerator, but this is probably overkill. A 10% solution is made with, for example, 50 grams of K-Lite plus 450 mL water (I use RO water). You can easily scale this up, but there is no problem dissolving this fairly promptly.

2. 25 mL of this stock solution into 1 gallon of water produces an 85 ppm N final watering solution.


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## Marc (Apr 10, 2012)

Are there any disadvantages to storing a concentrate over a longer period of time?


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## keithrs (Apr 10, 2012)

I have had mine in a concentrate for 4 months and no problems.


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## terryros (Apr 10, 2012)

In some post somewhere (pretty specific, I know) there was the thought that bacterial growth could occur. Some of the stringy stuff we see occasionally in concentrates might be from bacterial action. That was why I decided to use RO filtered water to make the concentrate and keep it refrigerated. I had an early batch that I didn't refrigerate and after some days I did see some stringiness that I no longer see with refrigerated bottles. Who knows whether any of this matters.


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## cnycharles (Apr 10, 2012)

I have seen sometimes some fungus etc growing on top of certain of our fertilizer barrels, but don't know if it's from the fertilizer or things that might settle and collect on top of the barrel. It is a pretty dusty environment and some fertilizers don't get used during certain seasons and can sit around a bit. I know that if you leave some fertilizers in the hanging hoses we use, when you do move that water out of the hose it can be pretty smelly


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## Ray (Apr 13, 2012)

Bill Argo recommends a maximum concentration of about 2#/gallon (240g/L) for the MSU RO stuff, so I imagine this isn't much different. However, at that concentration, you can be reasonably assured that the calcium, and maybe some of the mag will precipitate over time. The greater the dilution, the less of a chance.

I would think your 100g/L level would be fine.


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## keithrs (Apr 30, 2012)

Note:

I have noticed @ 50 N that my plants have turned very dark green. Lots of new growth... As would be expected this time of year. More than normal? Hard to say as a lot of plant I have, I received last year and earily this year. I will stay that the whole plant from top to bottom is looking very good. I have started to good the "organic" route lately. It to is also a "K-Lite". Smelly!!! Smells like dead fish for a day after watering!!!

I think I may reduce N ppm even more.... I think I'm going to go with 15-25 ppm N every watering.... I may even go lower... Will see! I figure that most epiphytic orchids don't see more than that @ every watering. I have supplemented all my terrestrial plants with organic fertilizers. About every two weeks I water with a bennie tea that has molasses and kelp in it. I think this is the key stone to what I'm doing.


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