# ?s about a few slupper orchids on my wish list



## The Orchid Boy (Nov 17, 2012)

Another member referred me to this article about armeniacum: http://www.orchidculture.com/COD/FREE/Paph_arm_Art.html I don't know if I could give it that cool rest. Warm and intermediate orchids grow well for me but not cool growing ones. I know micranthum is also difficult. Does it need these cool temperatures too? I don't mind if they're slow growing but I don't know if I could move them all over for correct temps. I grow under T5s if that helps. What about p. bellutullum and the brachypetalum group? Are there any other paphs that need "special" conditions? I'd also like to get a Phrag. pearcei. Do they need pure water? I try to water all my orchids w/ rain/snow water but sometimes it's not avaiable.


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## eggshells (Nov 17, 2012)

There are already several topics created for that. Probably the best armeniacums I have seen is JPMC's

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27428&highlight=armeniacum

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24822&highlight=armeniacum

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27110&highlight=armeniacum


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## wjs2nd (Nov 17, 2012)

You can get distilled water from the market (it's not expensive). The Phrag will want pure/clean water. You'll get leaf burn if not. The cool/cold drops are need for some orchids for long-term life. Depending on your weather you can keep them right by your window and put the curtains in front of them. It keeps them cool.


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## Leo Schordje (Nov 17, 2012)

In my experience (for others theirs may be different)

armeniacum is easier to grow than micranthum, but both resent extended periods of heat. Mircranthum is for me more sensitive than armeniacum. Temps above 100 F are definitely a problem, night time lows above 80 F for more than a month will become a problem. A couple weeks of nigh time lows above 70 in late summer may actually help set flower buds for the next bloom, but above 80 F for an extended time can be a problem. I have successfully bloomed armeniacum without extreme cooling. Lows around 58 to 62 F are cool enough. 

One lesson that I learned over the years, we can't grow everything in the same space. Armeniacum will not thrive next to the spot where your Paph sanderianum is thriving. You will have to find a different micro-climate in your home to grow the armeniacum, if your sanderianum is doing well in its spot, that spot will be too warm for the winter for your armeniacum. You might find a medium, where both plants are able to 'get by' but neither species will be happy in the other's ideal location. I do grow my armeniacums and micranthums in a light set up in a different room than where I grow my sanderianum. The "Parvi" room does not have a heating duct, it runs cooler in winter than the rest of the house. 

@ wsj2nd, I don't know what the TDS (total dissolved solids) of your water is, but for medium hardness water, say less than 400 TDS, I would say your assertion is not true. Your assertion may be true if your tap water is running over 800 ppm TDS, so this response is from not knowing what you personally are dealing with in terms of tap water. As I tell audiences when I give talks, more often than not, leaf tip die back is a symptom of allowing the orchids to get too dry between watering, rather than a symptom of a sensitivity to impure water. Even using RO water, you will continue to get leaf tip die back if you don't water your orchids frequently enough, or if you don't drench the pot thoroughly when you water. 

I water all my orchids with municipal tap water. My water comes out the tap at 235 to 250 ppm total dissolved solids. To this I always add some fertilizer, bringing the TDS up even higher. If you don't let the plants dry between watering, they will be fine. My kovachii and other Phrags are a testament to this.


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## The Orchid Boy (Nov 17, 2012)

I kinda think that micranthum and armeniacum are off limits for me then. Our house doesn't get cool enough anywhere. Is the brachypetalum group difficult or just slow growing? I really like the paphiopedilum subgenus, P. liemianum, P. vietnamense, and P. bellutullum. I have a delenatii, gratrixianum, and sanderianum that are doing well for me in warm temps under T5 lights. I think I may be growing them closer to the lights than they need to be.


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## naoki (Nov 17, 2012)

Leo Schordje said:


> As I tell audiences when I give talks, more often than not, leaf tip die back is a symptom of allowing the orchids to get too dry between watering, rather than a symptom of a sensitivity to impure water. Even using RO water, you will continue to get leaf tip die back if you don't water your orchids frequently enough, or if you don't drench the pot thoroughly when you water.



Interesting! Thank you for bringing this up, Leo. So it sounnds like leaf tip burn is generally from de-hydration in the leaves. The problem of high solute concentration in the irrigating water is basically that the roots can't absorb the water. Roots absorb water passively via osmosis (since the cell membrane is semi-permeable). So if the solute concentration is higher outside (low water potential), the movement of water get reversed (it moves from inside of the cells to outside following the differences in water potential). This is basically the cause of "root burn".

So I wonder if the internal solute concentrations in the root cells are different between different species, and this causes differential tolerance to hard water. I know that there are additional mechanisms to deal with salty water (e.g., plants living in brackish water), but I'm talking about comparison among normal plants (e.g. Phrags vs paphs).


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 17, 2012)

You should have no problems with brachy's, and they are not all that slow growing. Some are pretty fast growing, like niveum, and they like warm temperatures (well, maybe not bellatulum...but that plant doesn't like anything much of the time.) Phrag pearcei should be very easy to grow...just keep it very wet. Unless your water is really bad, I don't think you need distilled water.


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## wjs2nd (Nov 17, 2012)

Leo Schordje said:


> @ wsj2nd, I don't know what the TDS (total dissolved solids) of your water is, but for medium hardness water, say less than 400 TDS, I would say your assertion is not true. Your assertion may be true if your tap water is running over 800 ppm TDS, so this response is from not knowing what you personally are dealing with in terms of tap water. As I tell audiences when I give talks, more often than not, leaf tip die back is a symptom of allowing the orchids to get too dry between watering, rather than a symptom of a sensitivity to impure water. Even using RO water, you will continue to get leaf tip die back if you don't water your orchids frequently enough, or if you don't drench the pot thoroughly when you water.



I base this on a greenhouse I know of that has high TDS, do to water and ferilizer, burning leaf tips on Phrags. They know it's to high but do change it because they don't have the space/helpers. 

I mainly use distilled because of other chemicals added to our city water. My paphs and Phrags grow better for me with distilled but of course this is just my situation.


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## The Orchid Boy (Nov 17, 2012)

Well it seems P. godefroyae would make a good replacement on my list for bellutulum. (Please correct me if I'm wrong about this.) I try to water with rain/snow water as much as possible but when it's not available, I use hard well water. The same hard well water I use for my African cichlids.

My new wish list: 
O. Sharry Baby
P. godefroyae
P. liemianum
Other 2 forms of P. delenatii
1 bulldog paph (maybe)
some paph in the sigmatopetalum/barbatum subgenus
P. canhii (maybe)


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## The Orchid Boy (Nov 17, 2012)

In looking at some picture I found out that I still like most P. bellatulums better than most P. godefroyaes. I'll probaby get one of the two from Orchid Inn at the show in March. If I get a bellatulum, how is it difficult? How should I care for it? Or would it be too much work or require cooler temps than what I can provide.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 18, 2012)

P. canhii is not legal in the US. I don't think it's legal anywhere outside of Vietnam. Any plants you could get (via Ebay) would be collected plants, probably in poor shape. Legality aside, this species is too new for people to have that clear an idea of it's culture. Best off starting with the others on your list. If you like brachy's, niveum and concolor are the easiest. Now that legal importations are allowed for flasks, it won't be long before thaianum becomes available, and I don't believe that is supposed to be too difficult.


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## The Orchid Boy (Nov 18, 2012)

I've been reading quite a few Internet articles about bellatulum, and a lot of the info is conflicting. A lot of sites say it is easy to grow, others say it's not the easiest to grow. Some say it is very cool growing, some say it is very warm growing. I don't know what to believe. So what are your experiences with bellatulum? I just love the purple spots, white background, and round shape. I know Orchid Inn had them at the show last year for $20.


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## NYEric (Nov 18, 2012)

The Orchid Boy said:


> My new wish list:
> O. Sharry Baby
> P. godefroyae
> P. liemianum
> ...




Sharry Baby is easy to get, not expensive and easy to grow. Same w/ everything else on your list. except canhii, there are not that many here and you will pay for that. I believe you grow underground, right? If not, just put armeniacums and micranthums near an open window to cool down.


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## Leo Schordje (Nov 18, 2012)

wjs2nd said:


> I base this on a greenhouse I know of that has high TDS, do to water and ferilizer, burning leaf tips on Phrags. They know it's to high but do change it because they don't have the space/helpers.
> 
> I mainly use distilled because of other chemicals added to our city water. My paphs and Phrags grow better for me with distilled but of course this is just my situation.



I grew orchids for about 8 to 10 years using RO, or DI water. I liked using it. Nothing wrong with it. But I've been growing orchids for about 40 years, so 3/4 of the time I used municipal water. I stopped using RO again about 10 years ago. Rain, RO and DI water is a nice touch if you can afford the $$ and time it takes to do it. It is not absolutely necessary. There are multiple different ways to grow a good plant. I have found that by not allowing the orchids to get too dry, you can avoid the issues of leaf tip die back, even using fairly hard water. If using pure water (RO, DI or Rain water), is easy for you, then you should use it. I dropped RO & DI when my cost to use these went up beyond what I was comfortable with. For all but a handful of species it is an unnecessary luxury. There are a handful of species that I suspect would do better with RO, but they are not the ones we are talking about here.

Rick and Rick H (SlipperKing), in the K-Lite threads do talk about changes to refine your fertilizing program to whether you are using pure water or municipal water. I do heed their advise. It is a 4 legged stool; potting media, water, fertilizer & frequency for the watering & fertilizing, they all interact together. Change one and it affects the ideal for the others. If your system is working for you, go with it. My system works for me and I feel it is low tech enough that it would be easy for others to use.

It is an evolving process, I know as times change and materials change my methods will change. I am in the midst of a change in fertilizing based on the info from the K-Lite threads, and that change will change my watering and potting media in time. I'll be updating my advise to others once I am happy with the changes I've made.


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## The Orchid Boy (Nov 18, 2012)

Yeah I grow "underground". But the coolest place in our house gets down to 63F. And that is a north facing basemest window. I moved my thermometer all around the house trying to find a cool place. And that was at night when it was around 25F outside. If I opened a window I'd walk by and it would be closed, I'd open it, parents would close it. I don't mind "suffering" through temperatures or humidity for the sake of my orchids. Anyone know about bellatulum?


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## Leo Schordje (Nov 18, 2012)

naoki said:


> Interesting! Thank you for bringing this up, Leo. So it sounnds like leaf tip burn is generally from de-hydration in the leaves. The problem of high solute concentration in the irrigating water is basically that the roots can't absorb the water. Roots absorb water passively via osmosis (since the cell membrane is semi-permeable). So if the solute concentration is higher outside (low water potential), the movement of water get reversed (it moves from inside of the cells to outside following the differences in water potential). This is basically the cause of "root burn".
> 
> So I wonder if the internal solute concentrations in the root cells are different between different species, and this causes differential tolerance to hard water. I know that there are additional mechanisms to deal with salty water (e.g., plants living in brackish water), but I'm talking about comparison among normal plants (e.g. Phrags vs paphs).



****Edit - I re-read my post 24 hours later. You have it exactly right. There was no need for me to re-state the obvious, sorry if I irritated anyone by repeating myself. I will say also that you probably are correct on why some plants have better tolerance than others, but I truly don't know the mechanism. ***** I'll leave the rest of the post as is. **********

Thank you, I think you got the idea. My thought on this was not that detailed, I don't think there is a big difference between different species internal osmotic pressures, but I say this out of ignorance and a guess, rather than 'knowing' from the science literature. 

The science I was thinking of in my approach was: The water film around each particle of potting mix contains some amount of salt, be it fertilizer or the salts found in municipal water. As the pot dries out, the water film becomes thinner, the salt concentration in the remaining film climbs. As it approaches dry, it becomes more salty than the tissues inside the plant. 

If you keep the potting media moist, the concentration of salts in the water film does not get the opportunity to climb higher than the interior of the orchid roots. The harder your water is, the wetter you need to keep the orchids. That is the sum of where my 'keep them wetter' comes from. Its a simple solution to a complex interaction. 

Even when potting media is watered with very pure water, there will be some salts leached out from the media and other sources in the water film. So even with pure water the salt content of the water film will climb as the media approaches dry.


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## Leo Schordje (Nov 18, 2012)

I think all the brachys will do well in the same conditions one would give sanderianum. About Paph bellatulum, it is a touch more touchy about growing. Many growers consider it a 'temporary' resident of their collections. It is a low elevation species, it does not need or really want 'cold' at any time. It will tolerate rather cool temperatures at times, but it doesn't 'need' a big chill. Paph bellatulum comes from areas that are rather bright and go from wet to dry rapidly. A healthy bellatulum has thick, succulent roots. To a lesser extent all the brachys have succulent roots, but in bellatulum it is very pronounced. I kept the same clone of bellatulum going for about 20 years before I killed it. 

(yes, I forgot my own advice, and potted it in plastic and set it away from the fans, it suscumbed to rot, fortunately it wasn't my only one, just my oldest one)

I pot all my orchids in plastic pots to retain moisture. Only Paph bellatulum I pot in clay pots, so that it can go from wet to dry more rapidly than the others, and it does get closer to 'bone' dry between waterings than all my other Paphs. I don't leave it dry for very long at all, it just cycles from wet to dry more quickly than the rest. I think if you remember that bellatulum come from a bright and breezy habitat, you can keep it growing fine if you either put it in a clay pot, or if you put it in plastic, make sure it is in the 'breeze' from a fan. It doesn't have to be a strong breeze, but the air should be moving some. For what it is worth that is what I do.


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## reivilos (Nov 18, 2012)

I too potted bellatulum in a clay pot,
Leca at the bottom and mostly bark
as potting mix. Plant is slightly above
the mix.
I water from the top in summer and
bottom in winter where it gets 18 during
the day and 14 at night on the windowsill.

It's been the least demanding so far.


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Nov 18, 2012)

I agree, go with a bellatulm. I find them no more or less trouble than any of my other paphs. At the moment I have a couple of compots of them growing as well as about 20 in 2 inch plastic pots. I tend to grow on the dryer side so haven't had much trouble with them. As far as temperature is concerned, the greenhouse is currently set at 55 degrees. On the fist of the month I'll change that to 66 during the day and 60 at night. Naturally, on sunny days it gets much warmer. Then again, the last month has been mostly cloudy days and temperature hasn't been rising much. Truthfully the price of oil has dictated how much warmth I give the orchids. Along with the paphs. I grow a few dendrobiums, catts, oncidiums and lots of vandas. When one type is happy the other is not. At the moment I have alot of vandas that have set buds but they are waiting for me to bump up the temperature, before they will bless me with the flowers.


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## wjs2nd (Nov 18, 2012)

Leo: I see what your say. Thank you for explaining it in more detail!


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## The Orchid Boy (Nov 18, 2012)

Thanks for the help everyone! And the topic of water, TDS, salt build up, ect. was intersesting. I didn't understand every single detail but I understood most all of it.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 18, 2012)

I haven't found bellatulum to be that dependent on cold temperatures. In fact, while it lives, it grows very well and spikes easily, although the buds are more prone to blasting than any other brachy. However, I've never kept one alive for more than at most 3 years. they do well, then die suddenly. Despite their reputation for root loss, mine have usually died from the top down, leaving seemingly good roots.


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## eggshells (Nov 21, 2012)

I would vouch for Leo Sjchorde's watering techniques as I have been using the same thing for a little over a year now since he told me about it. In fact I have less than 500 ppm in my tap water. Mostly calcium carbonates and magnesium. I have never had problems with leaf tip die back or root burn. I am generous on watering though. I often water the pots with tap water for a good minute or so.

The only thing I would add and this is was just my experience. I had problems with using nitrates as the main source of N. My plants showed some nitrogen deficiency. New growths had stunted and the leaves had yellowish tones. In fact some bloomed prematurely. I immediately corrected this by using a fertilizer that have higher percentage of ammoniacal nitrates and urea. I also added a few pieces of osmocote in the potting mix and the plants have greened up and sent a flush of new growths.


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## Rick (Nov 21, 2012)

Leo Schordje;388764 As I tell audiences when I give talks said:


> Before K lite my phrags would experience leaf tip die back even when standing in low TDS water.
> 
> They can hand fairly high TDS waters as long as the predomiant cation is calcium.
> 
> Also of note is when I started using my conductivity (TDS) meter to measure pot conductivity levels, I did increase my rate of watering to reduce salt buldup in the potting mixes.


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