# Of Vermicompost teas.



## Stone (Oct 28, 2014)

Recently watched a program on tv where a flower grower has changed over from using regular fertilizer and pesticides/fungicides to exclusively using aerated vermicompost extracts as a daily? spray/drench. He claimed taller, stronger stems and freedom from pests and diseases.
His results were obviously outstanding (too my eyes anyway...the plants were spotless), so.....I did a little research :evil:

There is a huge amount of scientific literature available on the subject and the vast majority of it finds positive results (independant of fertilizer) in lab and field trials.

It is claimed to increase germination rates, growth rates, yield (sometimes), quality, suppress root pathogens, mites, aphids, mealy bugs and other pests.

The mineral content of the tea is directly related to the raw materials going in so this can be manipulated to some degree. And the preparation part would be important too or you could end up with brown water only But apart from the mineral elements, there seems to be many different effects from bacterial to hormonal and others.

It would be interesting to see if a regular spray and/or drench on our plants would see any benefits even if only pest or disease suppression.

Some reading for those interested:
http://www.samsoluciones.es/sam/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/produccion-con-te-de-compost1.pdf

http://growingsolutions.com/shop/images/bc0712_38.pdf

http://escholarship.org/uc/item/49t6942q#page-5

http://soilbiologicalsupplies.com.a...tea_-_Myzus_mealybug_and_2-spotted_mite_0.pdf


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## cnycharles (Oct 28, 2014)

This is very interesting, I'm surprised that there isn't any discussion...


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## ALToronto (Oct 28, 2014)

Interesting that the macro-nutrients show low N, high P and really high K. Obviously something else is in play here.

I wonder who funded this research? And can these results be applied to epiphytes?


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## Ryan Young (Oct 28, 2014)

There is good info available also on compost tea foliar spray. The kind that gets the 24h aeration and added enzyme treatment. I was eventually going to try it out on my orchids but I am in an apartment and the orchids are in a greenhouse, so I need to dedicate a weekend to it to try out. 

An old news bit about a prize winning vegetable grower in Alaska, is on the Web from several years back if I can remember. The compost acts as a barrier as mentioned above. 



Sent from my oneplus one


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## naoki (Oct 28, 2014)

Thank you for bringing this up, Mike. It looks promising. I have wondered about the mechanisms of composted worm casing protecting against pathogens, but I hadn't looked into it. It seems that the mechanism is not completely known, but the 4th paper speculates that Phenolics could be a part of the protection. If plants can take up phenolics (and use them for defense), maybe there is other source to extract phenolics from, too.


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## Ray (Oct 28, 2014)

I was reading in a plant pathology textbook that many plants naturally have nontoxic phenolic glycosides in their cells, and in some cases fungi and bacteria can liberate an enzyme that hydrolyzes them, releasing the toxic phenols.


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## Stone (Oct 28, 2014)

ALToronto said:


> Interesting that the macro-nutrients show low N, high P and really high K. Obviously something else is in play here.
> 
> I wonder who funded this research? And can these results be applied to epiphytes?



Yes the NPK can vary dramatically depening on what was used to feed the worms. Most kitchen sraps and many manures are very high in K but also usually high in N. It's interesting to note that the castings have most of the N converted to nitrate where as the ''regular'' compost has its N mostly as ammonium. Unless it has been well matured for a long period.

The flower grower I mentioned made up his own tea on an industrial scale and manipulated the ingredients to get the analysis he was after. But he was a bit vague as to what that was. He only mentioned using grass and some protein.

But I think its really the vast range of bacterial and fungal elements in it which is interesting. It was mentioned that when brewing the extract, you get a predominance of mesophyllic species (many of which can colonize the rhizosphere and thrive in wet environments) as opposed to thermophyllic species in ''hot'' composting.


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## Stone (Oct 28, 2014)

Just reading some stuff on the web and came across a blog which mentioned recent DNA sequencing found several trillion microbes in the rhisophere (per gram of root) and at least 30,000 species!

It is really begining to look like microbes rule our universe. Cutting edge medicine is finding microbes are the ''masters'' of our own immune system and many auto-immune diseases are being successfully treated with microbes. Simply changing your diet can dramatically increase the population of anti-inflammitory bacteria (the kind that eat fiber) in your gut!

Fascinating stuff.


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## Trithor (Oct 29, 2014)

Fascinating reading! I have been using an EM drench on my plants monthly for the last half year. I have noticed a definite decrease in disease in my greenhouse. I can't say if it is due to the EM or some other factor associated which I have not identified yet, but the change has been very noticeable that I intend to continue. I have not tried 'worm tea' yet as a feeding option, but the EM and lower feed rates have definitely had a positive effect.


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## cnycharles (Oct 29, 2014)

What is the EM you're referring to? Also having a thought that this method could be used to greatly enhance native terrestrial orchids growth and survivability for those who need more than just a pot, media and water to survive


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## naoki (Oct 29, 2014)

We, plant biologists, say that there are only two kinds of organisms: plants and the parasites of plants (well, strictly not true because there are cyanobacteria etc). But fungi and bacteria are the ones which make the ecosystem roll smoothly. I think there was a similar article in Discovery (or Scientific America) about the gut flora and health.

it would be interesting to see what proportion of the positive effects of worm tea is from microbe vs chemical (e.g phenolics or hormones) by killing the microbes in the tea.

It's interesting that you are seeing positive effect of EM, Gary. I think EM (effective microorganisms) is pretty popular in Japan, and I saw a web page saying that he/she got higher survival rate of deflasked orchid seedlings with EM inoculation (it wasn't scientific). It seems to be a little bit expensive here (here is the one I saw in the US), so I haven't tried it yet. It would be interesting to see the effect of EM in the coarse media we use.

Charles, I also wonder the same thing. I'm guessing terrestrials are probably more likely to interact with the microbe fauna similar to crops.


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## Ray (Oct 30, 2014)

Just yesterday, I had an long "business lunch" with the VP of a Canadian biotechnology company about First Rays becoming their primary retail outlet for their live culture plant and soil amendment in the US, which I characterize as "probiotics for plants".

The gentleman is a paph species grower, and claims that he sees much better survival and vitality in stuff like just-deflasked tigrinum by treating it with a dilution of the product. (Apparently Holger Pernar is seeing similar results, and is writing an article about saving tigrinum for the Malayan Orchid Review.) He also told me of a recent experience with a Paph victoria-mariae he had that was succumbing to rot (sounded like erwinia, from his description), so he completely immersed the plant overnight. The rot was completely stopped, and the plant now has 4 maturing growths.

I sent samples of the stuff to a few folks that are members here, and have not heard much, but one person I know in California that does a LOT of breeding got some, and he asked for the balance of my sample material, so that's encouraging.

But you're right, Naoki, their primary application is organically-grown terrestrial crops like vegetables, greens, marijuana, etc. By routine spraying, damping off of seedlings is greatly reduced, and it has been shown to completely wipe out botrytis in a strawberry crop in South Carolina, for example.

This is definitely "emerging technology", not so much about knowing that it works (although folks are still discovering what it works on), but more on understanding the mechanisms.


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## cnycharles (Oct 30, 2014)

All very interesting, thanks for posting the info. I've passes some links along


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## SlipperFan (Oct 30, 2014)

I'm particularly interested in it's effects on erwinia, a problem that still plagues my greenhouse.


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## UweM (Oct 31, 2014)

Ray said:


> I sent samples of the stuff ...



Hi Ray,

what is your talking point or the samples of stuff - Vermikomposttea or EM

Uwe


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## Ray (Oct 31, 2014)

It's EM, Uwe. The product, unlike many that contain a single species, contains engineered "consortia" of them - controlled during the fermentation process to provide specific blends of species that work synergistically.

They've done quite a bit of field work with the stuff, and are working with McGill University and Clemson to learn more.


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## Ray (Oct 31, 2014)

My first foray into the world of beneficial microorganisms actually was connected to the cleanup of the Exxon Valdez spill.

At the time, the "state of the art" for oil slick cleanup was seeding the slick with "super bugs" - oil-eating bacteria. Unfortunately, the population soon died out and it had to be reseeded again and again. Researchers where I worked (Elf Aquitaine, which is now Total due to mergers) found that they could induce the indigenous flora into doing the job by spraying a emulsion of olive oil and high-nitrogen fertilizer on it. The olive oil was an easy-to-digest carbon source, and the nitrogen spurred-on reproduction of the colony. When the olive oil was consumed, the bacteria had to resort to consuming the heavy oil, instead.

In a test section of the oil-covered beach, six weeks after spraying, there were no signs of residual oil, with the added benefit of not killing the other indigenous species as the steam-cleaning process did.

We actually got into oil spill remediation for a while - rail yards are notoriously bad, but there are issues with biological remediation:


Politically, it's not good. Up in Alaska, the beach was sprayed, then you walk away and wait for the bugs to do their thing. On the evening news, it looks like you're not doing anything. NOAA "owns" your bank account in such situations, so they're going to be active, even if it's not the best mode.

On the legislative front, the EPA wants absolute remediation, but the biological process is asymptotic - when the concentration is high, the consumption is fast, as it depletes and the population dies in accordance with the food supply, it slows. It's a "half-life" type of phenomenon.

Financially, it is so effective that it doesn't allow remediation engineering companies to keep sending invoices to the company responsible for the spill.

The company making the "Garden Solution" product, as it's called, Inocucor in the Montreal area, started in that field, as well, but the difficulty in overcoming that third issue led them to change directions.


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## cnycharles (Oct 31, 2014)

It's tough that a product works so well that you can't make any money from it (and the other issues)


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## gonewild (Oct 31, 2014)

Ray said:


> It's EM, Uwe. The product, unlike many that contain a single species, contains engineered "consortia" of them -



By engineered do you me different species put together is a designed population or do you mean genetically engineered?


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## Ray (Oct 31, 2014)

The former, Lance. They are all naturally-occurring critters.


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## gonewild (Oct 31, 2014)

Ray said:


> The former, Lance. They are all naturally-occurring critters.



Thanks for clarifying that.


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## Ray (Oct 31, 2014)

Yeah, the manufacturer is VERY keen to keep that clear!


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## naoki (Oct 31, 2014)

Maybe, you can talk them into developing orchid specific mix, Ray! Actually, I was reading a bit more, and I learned that you can propagate them in the molasses + water. In one of Japanese site, they also use vinegar + Shochuu (my favorite drink, similar to vodka) as the propagation media. So a small bottle can go for a while.

Ray, did you happen to know the shelf-life of these products? Some of the bacteria like Bacillus can probably produce spores, so they may be long lived, but others might die and the composition could be changed over time.


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## Ray (Nov 1, 2014)

Naoki, at one time, we discussed making "Orchid Solution", but decided that wasn't really necessary, and might limit the sales.

Shelf life is actually one of the unique features of the brand. In the concentrate, it is extremely stable at room temperature - to the best of my knowledge, a couple of years is not out of the question. Once it is diluted (1:100 is typical), it needs to be used, or refrigerated if you aren't using it within a few days. 

I had a gallon of 1:50 let-down that sat mostly unused for 2 months in a cool basement, and it was still effective to digest accumulated crap on the bottom of an outdoor, artificial pond next to my greenhouse.


Ray Barkalow
firstrays.com


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## gonewild (Nov 1, 2014)

Ray said:


> I had a gallon of 1:50 let-down that sat mostly unused for 2 months in a cool basement, and it was still effective to digest accumulated crap on the bottom of an outdoor, artificial pond next to my greenhouse.
> Ray Barkalow
> firstrays.com



Used in the pond is it harmful to fish?


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## Ray (Nov 1, 2014)

Not at all, Lance. The fish and frogs in my pond seem unfazed.

All of the microbes used in the products are categorized as "not likely to cause adverse health effects in otherwise healthy humans", so it's pretty innocuous to most living creatures.

Read the stuff at inocucor.com - there isn't all that much marketing hype to be filtered out to learn more about the technology.


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## UweM (Nov 1, 2014)

Sorry, I have made no good experience with the EM-a (aktivated). Some mottled leaf Paphs. get leaf patch.

In Japan a orchid nursery make test with EM-a and EM-5. After three year they stopped the test: no positiv results

In a small pond the EM-a acts.... - in my 75000 liter koi-kond the EM-a it is to expensive - so I use special microorganisms for fishpond.


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## ALToronto (Nov 1, 2014)

Ray, thanks for posting the link to the Inocucor site. I'll probably get the 250 ml sample from them.

One concern, though - will these critters accelerate the breakdown of organic media?


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## paphioboy (Nov 2, 2014)

The use of effective microorganisms (EM) to help orchid growth is interesting. As mentioned in the above comments, what you add is more important than how much. Mainly because most of the epiphytic species do not have a symbiotic relationship with many of the soil-dwelling fungi. Most epiphyte species, in fact, are symbiotic with certain isolates of potentially pathogenic fungi, including Rhizoctonia, Fusarium and Pythium. There are many papers on this, you can Google 'Orchid mycorrhiza'. In contrast, the more common mycorrhizas or beneficial fungi for non-orchid temperate terrestrial plants belong to the Glomerales and Gigasporaceae. Many EM products tend to contain these fungi or other supposedly biocontrol agent species that help protect the plant, like Trichoderma (a known parasite on other fungi). 

For the slipper alliance, it is known that most of the naturally-associated fungi belong to the Tulasnella/Epulorhiza and Ceratobasidium group, some of which are unculturable. Epulorhiza is strongly-associated with Paphs. If you add in a different fungus, the additive could in fact be competing with the naturally occurring fungi, and could be detrimental to plant health. A paper I read states that some widely-occurring Cypripedium species (calceolus) have a more specific relationship with the symbiotic fungi, whereas other cyp species which have a more narrow habitat are more generalist in their preference of fungal partners.


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## paphioboy (Nov 2, 2014)

Some references for those interested in orchid mycorrhiza:
http://www.academia.edu/458826/Stud...of_some_selected_orchids_of_Arunachal_Pradesh

Fungus in Paph thaianum roots:
www.scirp.org/journal/PaperDownload.aspx?paperID=22189

Fungus in Parvisepalum (no full text, but you get the gist in the abstract):
http://english.kib.cas.cn/rh/rp/201103/t20110321_66672.html

Evolution of fungi in Cypripedium:
http://nature.berkeley.edu/brunslab/mycorrhizal/papers/shefferson2007.pdf


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## Ray (Nov 2, 2014)

ALToronto said:


> Ray, thanks for posting the link to the Inocucor site. I'll probably get the 250 ml sample from them.
> 
> One concern, though - will these critters accelerate the breakdown of organic media?



Alla, in Canada, it is only sold as an aquatic treatment; apparently the government does not allow it to be sold as a plant & soil amendment, as it is in the US.

I am not aware that any of the bugs in the formulation break down lignin to a major degree, so I doubt that's a concern. Even if they do, it's probably not going to be faster than a reasonable repotting frequency would dictate anyway.

The guy who's their VP of sales is an avid paph species grower. He actually tried the stuff before working for-, and investing in the company. As much as he travels on business, I suspect that if there was a medium-degradation issue, he'd be well aware of it.


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## Ray (Nov 2, 2014)

UweM said:


> Sorry, I have made no good experience with the EM-a (aktivated). Some mottled leaf Paphs. get leaf patch.
> 
> In Japan a orchid nursery make test with EM-a and EM-5. After three year they stopped the test: no positiv results
> 
> In a small pond the EM-a acts.... - in my 75000 liter koi-kond the EM-a it is to expensive - so I use special microorganisms for fishpond.



Uwe, my own testing of the Garden Solution product has shown no negatives, but I cannot say I've seen a lot of positives either. Then again, I don't normally have a lot of issues with plant pathogens or insects, so maybe the treatments are more of a "belt and suspenders" thing for me.

I think that the best application for orchids is on newly-deflasked seedlings and species that can be really finicky in their demands. I suspect that, when used in conjunction with a very low rate of application of fertilizers, as many of us are doing these days, it may play a bigger role.

University studies and practical field testing has shown it to be a boon to the organic growing world, reducing the needs for pesticides and fertilizers, but I think we just need to find the right fit for orchids. My "gut" says there is a logical fit, but I'm not certain what it is yet.

Marijuana growers have found that it increases the rate of seed germination, reduces losses due to damping-off of the seedlings, and apparently produces a stockier plant with sturdier stems and less internodal elongation, resulting in a bushier plant. Damping-off is certainly a concern for orchid seedlings, but I can't vouch for the other benefits...

Assuming the lawyers don't mess with the agreement too much and foul the arrangements, I'll have some material sometime next month, including some sample materials to share.


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## gonewild (Nov 2, 2014)

Ray said:


> have found that it increases the rate of seed germination,



I'm curious how it could increase the rate of germination. Seems like the seed is either alive and will germinate or it won't.

It's easy to see how it might increase the surrvival rate of germinated seeds but how does it cause more seed to germinate?

Any comments about this claim?


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## naoki (Nov 2, 2014)

Lance, it could be related to gibberellins. Biology of seed germination is pretty complex, and it is evolutionarily beneficial to have seed dormancy in many cases. Gibberelins is a hormone which can break dormancy in many plants (but it doesn't work well with orchids because most of them don't have endosperms), and it was originally discovered from rice disease caused by fungi. So some of the fungi in the community-based microbe additive may have something similar. Indeed, one of the paper which Mike initially pointed out shows that vermicompost tea contains some plant hormones (I don't think it mentioned gibberellins, though). Drs. Baskin & Baskin studied the process of seed germination as their life work, and wrote a great reference book: Seeds: Ecology, Biogeography, and, Evolution of Dormancy and Germination.

I read a bit more about EM type approach (whole microbe community approach), and it seems to be still somewhat controversial. It is interesting to try, though.

Ray, from what I read, cellulose/lignin degraders are one of the main components of EM, but the composition may be different from the Canadian product. But does degradation of cellulose/lignin really bad? People experimented with card-board addition to the potting media, which seems to work fairly well with terrestrials. Some of them thought that addition of high cellulose contents encourage growth of some fungi beneficial to orchids (not scientifically shown, and it is simple speculation).

My son and I went to Walmart and got worms for $3 yesterday. They happen to have a correct species for composting (Eisenia hortensis, which is newer species for vermin-composting in the US, but I heard that Eisenia fetida could be a bit better species). My toddler son is super-excited about the worm house (just rubbermaid box). There are only 30 or so worms now, so it will probably take quite a long time to get usable products.


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## Stone (Nov 2, 2014)

naoki said:


> > (Eisenia hortensis, which is newer species for vermin-composting in the US
> 
> 
> Are they composting vermin there now?:rollhappy:
> ...


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## naoki (Nov 3, 2014)

Stone said:


> naoki said:
> 
> 
> > Are they composting vermin there now?:rollhappy:
> ...


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## likespaphs (Nov 3, 2014)

if you can find it, there's a great book called Worms Eat My Garbage by Mary Applehof


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## DarioU (Nov 8, 2014)

How much compost do you use to make the tea?


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## Stone (Nov 9, 2014)

DarioU said:


> How much compost do you use to make the tea?



As much as you like but if you're going to drench, dilute down with an EC meter!


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## DarioU (Nov 10, 2014)

But I Know that EC meter is not very usefull for organic fertilizer ....


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## Stone (Nov 10, 2014)

DarioU said:


> But I Know that EC meter is not very usefull for organic fertilizer ....



It will not measure organic Nitrogen but there will not be too much left in vermi tea? But you should still use it to give you some idea how strong the soluble minerals are now.


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## DarioU (Nov 11, 2014)

OK, Thank you


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## eggshells (Oct 22, 2015)

Mike, any updates on your wormcasting tea experiment?


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## Stone (Oct 22, 2015)

Thanks for reminding me! I haven't looked at it for months  It's probably all dried out now:sob:
It was going along ok last time I looked. I wanted to get nice pure castings before I used it (with takes quite some time!) I'll let you know what I find.


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## Stone (Oct 23, 2015)

Just as I thought...all dried out and have to start again.


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## naoki (Oct 23, 2015)

That's too bad. I started it right after you brought this up. I'm getting ready to harvest within the next month. The composting process works much better than I expected!


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## Stone (Dec 4, 2016)

*Warning! Thread resurrection!*

Well I've been using the vermicompost tea for about 3 months now (about once per week as a drench and twice a week as a spray) So far I have not noticed any negative effects. On the plants in clear plastic pots. There are pretty good clean white root tips on many plants including brachypetalum. I have also used it on de-flasked seedlings and again, no problems with disease on leaves or roots so far. I'm confident there is suppression of pathogens.
The compost is now devoid of worms. I don't know whether they died or escaped. The material is very fine and humified. No smell whatsoever and it's more than 18 months old.


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## myxodex (Dec 5, 2016)

Stone said:


> Well I've been using the vermicompost tea for about 3 months now (about once per week as a drench and twice a week as a spray) So far I have not noticed any negative effects. On the plants in clear plastic pots. There are pretty good clean white root tips on many plants including brachypetalum. I have also used it on de-flasked seedlings and again, no problems with disease on leaves or roots so far. I'm confident there is suppression of pathogens.
> The compost is now devoid of worms. I don't know whether they died or escaped. The material is very fine and humified. No smell whatsoever and it's more than 18 months old.



Good to know it is working with orchids.

I was thinking of experimenting with vermicompost tea (VCT) having got the wormery back up and running. I have sifted through a bunch of literature on this to get some ideas on what works best and why. What I found was quite a bit of variability in reports , ... but there are a few things that might be of interest to those experimenting with this.

1) VCT's do typically contain a number of known plant beneficial microbes and adding a carbon source to the brew helps increase the bacterial content. The choice of carbon source could be important. So adding sugars, e.g. molasses, doesn't preserve the bacterial diversity as well as more complex carbon sources do. Quite a few beneficial bacteria are known to produce glucanases and/or chitinases. Some folk have used oat bran (a source of glucan). I've thought of combining a glucan with colloidal chitin as a carbon source to help the survival of bacteria in the actinomycetes section. Most known chitinase producing bacteria come from this section. Actinomycetes and related bacteria are of major importance in most terestrial ecosystems with high organic matter turn over, but they are slow growing and can be swamped out by faster growing opportunistic bacteria when sugars are provided. There is some evidence that complex carbohydrates and longer brewing times are better than the molasses recipe most often suggested.

2) One study used a combination of seaweed extract and humic acid to supplement the brew. They got good results with growth promotion but it is not clear whether it's the phytohormones in the seaweed or those produced from the bacteria in the brew. Other reports indicate that humic acid can bind and stabilise phytohormones in a composting enviroment in which they are otherwise destroyed quite quickly, and can act as a slow release system for these. Humates are present in VCT to a greater or lesser extent anyway, but it seems adding some seems to be beneficial in stabilising the phytohormone effect.

3) Aerated teas (ACT) versus nonaerated teas (NCT) at suppressing fungal pathogens in seedlings when used as a drench or foliar spray. Some reports say that ACT are better at suppressing fungal pathogens whilst others find NCT work just as well or even better. Another study found that the biggest factor was the compost sample used to make the tea. If anything teas made from various animal manures seem to outperform vermicomposts in this department.

4) One thing that bothered me a bit was that ACT tend to end up with a higher pH (>= 7.5) than NCT although there were some exceptions to this. You may want to check the pH of the final brew as some can end up with pHs in 8 - 9 range. Furthermore diluting the tea too much has been shown in some studies to completely eliminate any beneficial effect. This makes me wonder whether the whole benefit of vermicomposting is all down to phytohormone content more than it is about providing beneficial bacteria ... and it was the latter possibility that got my interest in the first place.


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## Ray (Dec 5, 2016)

In support of item 2, kelp is a major nutrient in the production of Inocucor's product.


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## Stone (Dec 5, 2016)

myxodex said:


> > VCT's do typically contain a number of known plant beneficial microbes and adding a carbon source to the brew helps increase the bacterial content. The choice of carbon source could be important. So adding sugars, e.g. molasses, doesn't preserve the bacterial diversity as well as more complex carbon sources do. Quite a few beneficial bacteria are known to produce glucanases and/or chitinases. Some folk have used oat bran (a source of glucan).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## myxodex (Jan 5, 2017)

@ Mike, thanks for the useful information in your response. Also thanks for the link, I had scanned this paper but still need to read it carefully.

@ Ray, thanks for that information about kelp extract, I will certainly try some brews with it.

I was going to do a longer post but it seems I can no longer cut and paste from notepad, which I normally do to circumvent being timed out.

There is some very interesting stuff out there on PGPR's and I will get back about the experiments I'm planning.


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## JAB (Jan 5, 2017)

Very interesting read guys. I have never used VT on orchids but on various other crops it works very well. You say you have not noticed any negative effects, but is there any positive effects above and beyond your usual fertilizer regime prior to using VT?
I will say this ... if I have to drench once a week and spray twice a week, I don't care how good the product is that is an inefficient use of time, energy and money for a collection over 20 plants. Cost to benefit ratio is askew, and that is not factoring in time to make the tea. 

Cheers
JAB


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## myxodex (Jan 6, 2017)

JAB said:


> Very interesting read guys. I have never used VT on orchids but on various other crops it works very well. You say you have not noticed any negative effects, but is there any positive effects above and beyond your usual fertilizer regime prior to using VT?
> I will say this ... if I have to drench once a week and spray twice a week, I don't care how good the product is that is an inefficient use of time, energy and money for a collection over 20 plants. Cost to benefit ratio is askew, and that is not factoring in time to make the tea.
> 
> Cheers
> JAB



A very good question about the longevity of the benefit, for which I suspect we do not have an answer. I'm setting up to do some experiments with colloidal chitin, amorphous cellulose and possibly beta-glucan. Many of the protective PGPR's make extracellular enzymes to degrade these polysaccharides (PS) and I'm going to try these as the C-source in making the tea. I will then be able to test the tea for chitinase producers in the final VCT. If positive then adding a small amount of these PS's to the fert regime may help to keep the PGPR's going. The idea of feeding the PGPR's, not just the plant could be a bit crazy, but I've started making my own fert which contains both organic acids and amino acids and seen a slight improvement in growth. The limiting major nutrient for PGPR's will be a carbon source.

The problem is that there will be a microbial population in our pots anyway, and feeding them might only be a good thing if they happen to be beneficials or PGPR's. In particular feeding with PS could also encourage non-beneficial fungi which could inhibit the plant. That is why I'm after chitin degrading bacteria like some Pseudomonas and Bacillus species as some of these come with a number of beneficial activities as well as inhibiting fungal growth. It could all go horribly wrong, but I'm going to try anyway.


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## myxodex (Jan 6, 2017)

There is another aspect of the benefit of PGPR's that will be longer lasting and a clue to this, and why it might work with orchids, comes from results found with orchid propagation media. Supplementation of the seedling replate medium with 10 mg/L of chitosan (a souble derivative of chitin), makes the seedlings grow a bit faster, but the main benefit is that they are significantly more resistant to infection after deflasking. 

Both chitosan and soluble chitin oligosaccharides are known to be elicitors of induced systemic resistance (ISR) in plants. A review by L.C. van Loon ( http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10658-007-9165-1 ), explains ISR in some detail and how PGPR's can elicit ISR in plants. PGPR's that release or excrete molecules which mimic those produced by a pathogen can sometimes elicit ISR. Soluble chitin oligosaccharides would naturally be released if PGPR's are degrading chitin in the rhizosphere. So while the damage to fungal cell walls and the resulting inhibition of their growth by the chitinase/glucanase combination has been well documented, it may be only part of the resistance to pathogenic fungi provided, and ISR might play a role as well. ISR is quite interesting as it can sometimes extend resistance throughout the whole plant, not just the roots, and appears to be a general resistance not specific a particular class of pathogens. ISR is a relatively stable long-lasting state that is thought to increase the efficiency of the plants response to pathogens. It appears this "memory" in plants involves epigenetic mechanisms that make it quicker and easier for the plant to activate it's resistance genes in response to pathogen attack ( http://pcp.oxfordjournals.org/content/55/11/1859.full ). It is also interesting that among the whole bunch of genes that plants turn on as a part of this defense response to pathogens are genes for chitinase and glucanase.


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## JAB (Jan 6, 2017)

Keep us posted on your experiments. Very few growers take the risk to try different things, so it is refreshing not only to see orchid growers trying things but also sharing their finds openly. 
Kudos.

JAB


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## naoki (Jan 6, 2017)

Interesting. So are you adding chitin, cellulose etc. at the brewing stage, or are you adding to the vermicompost?

Feeding microbes is interesting. I have "fed" cellulose (basically added corrugated cardboard pieces to the potting mix), and my experiment was not positive. I'll post this at one point. But chitin would be interesting.

I haven't read about ISR yet, but are there negative effects of ISR expressed all the time (when there is no pathogen threat)?


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## myxodex (Jan 6, 2017)

naoki said:


> Interesting. So are you adding chitin, cellulose etc. at the brewing stage, or are you adding to the vermicompost?
> 
> Feeding microbes is interesting. I have "fed" cellulose (basically added corrugated cardboard pieces to the potting mix), and my experiment was not positive. I'll post this at one point. But chitin would be interesting.
> 
> I haven't read about ISR yet, but are there negative effects of ISR expressed all the time (when there is no pathogen threat)?



I will add some ground up crab shell flakes to the vermicompost along with some composted horse manure ( a good source of cellulase degrading bacteria ). I'm going to try making VCT brews with colloidal chitin and at least one other polysaccharide, probably cellulose. I might also use a small amount of kelp extract in some brews. Note that almost all of the bacterial polysaccharide degrading enzymes are extracellular and so the sugars released will be available to non-degrading bacteria as well, but it will be a gradual release dependent on the presence of the degraders, so this dependency should help prevent a opportunist (copiotroph) domination of the brew. Copiotroph dominance is more likely with molasses which is 70-80% sugars, all directly available from the outset. My basic practical outline is described below ... any suggestions/modifications will be gratefully recieved and considered. I will only be able to begin in spring/summer when the temperatures warm up, at the moment the worms are rather inactive due to low temperatures. I've ordered most of the materials to prepare the polysaccharides for use and this I can start soon.

Step 1 - making the brew and inital testing
For this I will need to make colloidal chitin because it is too expensive in purified form and vendors of it are scarce. I've made it before a long time ago when I was working on slime moulds (myxomycetes). Essentially you grind up crab shell flakes into as fine a meal as possible and dissolve this in concentrated HCl (36%), then dilute this into a larger volume of water and the chitin precipitates out in a "colloid like" form. This then has to be desalted by washing which is a bit tedious but not difficult (coffee filter works well for this step). The advantage of this stuff is two fold; firstly it has a large surface area and can be degraded by chitinases very efficiently, and secondly you can prepare nutrient agar plates with it as the major carbon source. It gives a milky opacity to the agar, and dilution streaks of the VCT that contain chitinase producing bacteria will give colonies with clear zones or halos around them, so I will be able to estimate the percentage of chitinase producing bacteria in the brew. The amorphous cellulose is prepared in a somewhat similar manner, but for this you dissolve microcrystalline cellulose powder in 85% phosphoric acid, then dilute into water to precipitate and desalt by extensive washing as with the chitin. This is a good source of cellulose for microbes to degrade as you've destroyed it's natural crystallinity which is more difficult for cellulase enzymes to attack. Unfortunately using it in agar plates as an assay, as with the chitin, is tricky because the heat of autoclaving causes it to partly recrystallize meaning that any halos around colonies are harder to spot ... but I have an idea that might at least reduce this problem. Beta-1,3-glucans are more tricky as they are expensive in purified form, and testing for glucanases would require access to a laboratory which I don't have. I might try using something like a shiitake mushroom powder but haven't decided on this one yet. There is also a form of amylase pretreated oat bran powder that is enriched in beta-glucans up to almost 30%, the rest being mostly protein and insoluble fibre. Anyway step one is to get a brew that tests positive for chitinase producers and with a bit of luck I can also test for cellulase positive colonies. Without some positive results with these tests I might not proceed with step 3.

Step 2 - testing on plants
I will use my least favourite paphs for this and some non orchid seedlings (the latter first). 
Another way of testing the brew is to see if I can detect auxin activity. It is estimated that approx 70% of known PGPR species make IAA, and the vast majority of these do it from tryptophan as the precursor. So adding tryptophan to a separate portion of the brew for a secondary brewing step, should increase it's root inducing potency. So cuttings of some easily rooted plants, with brew +/- tryptophan ... if the + tryptophan treatment is significantly stronger at promoting rooting then IAA production is likely. Crude, but might just work with a series of appropriate dilutions.

Step 3 - feeding PGPRs in the pot
The idea of feeding the PGPRs in the medium is going to be something I will try cautiously to begin with. However, as Ray pointed out above Inocucor is made using seaweed extract which contains both complex carbohydrates and some amino acids, and so some folk are already feeding their pot bugs when they supplement their feeding with this. The colloidal chitin and amorphous cellulose are fine precipitates which are easily suspended in water and so could be easily provided at low concentrations in an evenly dispersed manner mixed in with the fertiliser solution. The problem is if the pot pH gets too acidic then fungi will take over as the bacteria will become less efficient at repressing them, so pH management could be important for this to succeed. I've already found that including organic acids seems to have been beneficial... I feed at about 20 ppm N with about 10 ppm total organic acids ( malate, succinate, alpha-ketoglutarate and citrate supplied as NH4 and K salts) and amino acids (10 ppm total supplying about 2 ppm of the total N ). So I'm already providing quite a bit of bug-food without any problems, and I probably won't add any more than 10 ppm polysaccharide. Incidentally, I don't use EDTA in my fertiliser because with organic+amino acids there is no need for it.

As for the last point, yes, ISR can cause some stress, and as I understand it, which is not a lot, it is signalled by ethylene and/or jasmonic acid. It is thought by some workers in the field that one of the benefits of PGPR's is that many of them also produce the enzyme ACC deaminase which supposedly stops eccessive ethylene production by preventing re-uptake of root excreted ACC which is a precursor of ethylene production. This is popular, but not a universally accepted idea, but it does seem as though PGPR's can induce ISR and prevent excessive stress or at least that is what I gather. There is a more recent review on ISR and PGPR's than the van Loon review I linked above, but frustratingly it is behind a paywall, so if you are able access this you will most likely get a better answer than I can give ( http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev-phyto-082712-102340 ).


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## myxodex (Jan 7, 2017)

PS. I have just discovered that the review on ISR and beneficials ( http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev-phyto-082712-102340 ) is readable online by clicking the "go to full text" button. Although some interesting stuff it doesn't actually cover the stress aspect, just that the priming mechanism in ISR involves less synthetic cost than SAR. There are a load of publications about PGPR's reducing stress and most of them invoke the ACC deaminase mechanism.


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## naoki (Jan 10, 2017)

Thank you very much for lots of good info. I started to read these, and it is pretty interesting!

Does chitin works against bacteria, too? Pieterse's review mentioned that it is used as a pattern recognition of fungal existence.

I have been dismissing those products which contain Pseudomonas, Bacillus etc., but they may do something to orchids, too. From the review, I wasn't sure how specific these PGPRs are to the associated plants.


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## Stone (Oct 9, 2017)

I like to open my flasks for as long as possible before handling the seedlings.
As we know, the agar becomes smothered in mould within 2 days of opening. I think I have mentioned this before but adding a compost tea not only eliminates the mould but keeps it from returning so the seedlings have a good chance to harden off properly before getting blasted with water and shoved into the cruel world. It's made a big difference in the survival rate and the ease of handling for me.
It's important not to let the agar dry out so I add either more solution or plain rain water whenever the film of water starts to dry out.

Paph virens opened 4 days ago and treated





BTW I also add some high alginic acid fermented kelp extract for extra carbon and etc.

Paph vietnamense opened 1 week ago




Paph delenatii opened 3 weeks ago









Here's a flask of Dendrobium carronii which was opened 36 hours ago and had already developed a film of mould. _ just after treatment.....I will pour off the excess solution until the agar is _just_ covered


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## Ozpaph (Oct 9, 2017)

interesting, thanks.


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## myxodex (Oct 9, 2017)

Nice to see. Deflasking has to be the most useful benefit of VCT, at least for those who cannot get commercial preps like Inocucor. 

Nice timing for reactivating this thread as I've just made my first VCT using the chitin, but haven't got around to testing it yet. 

Question ... do you dilute the VCT for application or not ?

My problem is one of trusting my brew. I used a mixture of chitin, cellulose, oat fibre and curdlan all in fine denatured form along with a bit of isomalt and a small amount of sugar to get it going. I also added some peptone, yeast extract, kelp extract with my home made fertiliser as the salts base. As I used polysaccharides as the major C source, ... I ran the brew aerated for 5 days and topped up the chitin on the third day. On the second day there was a bit of a iffy smell but this cleared up on day 3 to be replaced by a distinct soil / composty smell. The transient bad smell might have been from some baby worms I missed in sorting the compost from the wormery. 

I came across a company in the US that are selling kits for making compost teas. http://www.boogiebrew.net/open-source-compost-tea/
I think they are (like myself a bit) probably going a bit over the top on this ... not to mention quite a bit of redundancy in the stuff they recommend adding ... but at least they seem to be getting good results. For example they add trace minerals as volanic rock dust, kelp in different forms and ocean minerals. The thing is there is some evidence that culture of certain soil bacteria does require a more complex mineral content (compared to standard bacteriological media) ... but my guess is that kelp extract covers this in one go. Anyway it was quite interesting for me to see their reasoning ... an odd mixture of crazy hype and things that make perfect sense.


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## Stone (Oct 9, 2017)

> =myxodex;642856]





> Question ... do you dilute the VCT for application or not ?






myxodex,

I take about half a handful of the moist compost and wrap in in a cotton rag to make a bag. Then I sink that into about 2 litres of rain water and move it around until it begins to seep out. After that I give it one good squeeze and and remove it. There is enough in the bag to make at least 2 other batches but because I used quite a lot of rich ingredients to make it, (soya meal, blood and bone, cow manure, plus things like leaves, grass, bark, wood shavings, diatomite, etc) and it has never been leached, I suspect the EC is quite high and since my ec meter bit the dust, I err on the safe side. I add about 20ml of the kelp to the water and then use it - warmed slightly.
There also probably is enough residual nutrients and sugars in the agar to keep the microbes going, although I do change it every 3 days or so.




> My problem is one of trusting my brew.



The only way is to test it and the easiest way to do that is use radish seedlings. Sow some in straight perlite or with some vermiculite and they will germinate in a few days. When they have a reasonable root system - about a week - you can test your brew. Take them out of the pot when you are ready and check the root tips with a hand lens. If they are white and clean with no brown tips your mix is safe to use. You can then experiment with concentrations.
I think the important thing is to have a fully mature compost. It seems that after a long time period, any imbalances have been resolved and it becomes very stable chemically and microbe wise.
My compost initially was composted for months before the worms were introduced. The worms have long since gone. Either escaped or died but there is no trace of them. This compost is now approaching 3 years of age but I keep it continually moist. There are only a few traces of recognizable organic material left in it.


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## myxodex (Oct 14, 2017)

Thanks for the info. My instincts also favour using the older compost but my OH harvested the most mature tray from the wormery a few days before I was ready, to use on her veggy garden ... damn .. communication hmmm. I went ahead anyway because some VCT brewers favour compost with more worm action ? There seem to be a lot of alchemy type mythologies floating around with vermicompost teas.


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