# Brown Rot?



## Harlz (Mar 27, 2016)

Hi all, interested in your thoughts and suggestions on three of my Paphs which are showing signs of Brown Rot, I think?















This past summer we had a very wet January followed by a very warm, dry Feb/Mar with well above average temperatures. During this time my plants are all outside under shade cloth only. They are a bit crowded which probably explains how it has spread.

Are these plants salvageable? Options for chemical control are a little different here in Australia compared to overseas. E.g. don't think I've ever seen Physan sold here.

The Paph. Bellatulum (middle pic) I'd hate to have to give it is last rites. Seedlings of this species are especially uncommon here and expensive. I've had this plant for only two years, the first year a slug chewed off most of it but like a trooper it grew back only to succumb to this the following year.


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## Linus_Cello (Mar 27, 2016)

The first one I don't think is salvagable, but I think the other 2 are salvagable. Repot them all. The first one looks too wet.


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## SlipperFan (Mar 27, 2016)

If the rot is in the crown, I don't know how you can save it.

If the spots on the leaves aren't spreading, I would just treat them, but if they are spreading, I'd cut the leaves off just a bit past the spots and treat the cut with cinnamon.

Good luck!


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## troy (Mar 27, 2016)

I agree #1 is a gonner, cut the bad spots off #2-3 and repot then peroxide or douse in peroxide then repot


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## NYEric (Mar 27, 2016)

Number 1 is in bad shape. If you had some Dragon's blood, maybe. The other 2 should be fine. The spots look like those you get on roses from water splashing off the ground.


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## Ozpaph (Mar 28, 2016)

looks bacterial.???
I'd use some physan as a drench then liberally dust both sites of the affected leaf (and crown) with cinnamon. Repeat in a few days.
Keep drier. Good air movement and quarantine.
Spray/drench everything else with mancozeb or kocide(not dendrodes with the later).


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## Harlz (Mar 28, 2016)

Thanks very much for the replies and advice, much appreciated. I've already started working on sorting this out.


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## phraggy (Apr 1, 2016)

NYEric said:


> Number 1 is in bad shape. If you had some Dragon's blood, maybe. The other 2 should be fine. The spots look like those you get on roses from water splashing off the ground.



Eric. You can get Dragons Blood from the UK ebay site for under a tenner.

Ed


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## Justin (Apr 1, 2016)

It is a fungal infection. First plant is gone...pitch it.
Agree cut off parts from the other plants with a sterile tool then look at culture to prevent in the future. Good luck.


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## emydura (Apr 1, 2016)

The first one looks in trouble. Is that a new growth I can see? If so, that might be OK. The potting mix needs to be replaced though. It looks a little broken down, especially for a Brachy. The other two should not be a problem as long as you stop the rot.

While you can't get Physan in Australia you can use a pool algaecide which is the exact same chemical (Benzyalkonium Chloride). It is a lot cheaper too and a little safer to use as it is not as highly concentrated. This one from Bunnings will do the trick. You can get a 2 litre version. 

http://www.bunnings.com.au/hy-clor-5l-pool-algaecide_p3090185

For concentrations for rots such as black rot, brown rot, Erwinia etc 
15 mls to 4 litres of water (3.75ml per litre) . Remove compost, soak entire plant 10 minutes or more. Trim all rot from plant using sterilized cutter. Soak plant wounds 10 minutes or more. Repot using compost soaked with Algaecide solution.


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## Ozpaph (Apr 1, 2016)

David, have you tried that?
You can import Physan from the US via eBay - but pool stuff does look easier and cheaper.


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## Ozpaph (Apr 1, 2016)

http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7420.html


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## emydura (Apr 1, 2016)

Ozpaph said:


> David, have you tried that?
> You can import Physan from the US via eBay - but pool stuff does look easier and cheaper.



Yes, I have been using it for a few months. I think it is pretty effective. I also spray it regularly at a lower concentration as a preventative measure. It is the same ingredient as Physan and it is so cheap. So I don't think there is much point in importing Physan. There is more information in our Bulletin starting on page 7 -

http://www.canberraorchids.org/Pubs/BulletinMay14.pdf

I came across this when looking for a solution to the problem of snow mould. Some of my Paphs get that white fungus through the potting mix which I had found impossible to get rid of. None of the conventional fungicides worked. But I read that a fungicide containing Benzylalkonium Chloride would eradicate it. However none of the fungicides in Australia contained this ingredient. I worked out Physan did but it is no longer available here anymore. Then I worked out these pool algaecides are the same as Physan. I have soaked a few plants with snow mould and so far so good. But it takes a while before you are confident it is fully gone.


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## NYEric (Apr 1, 2016)

phraggy said:


> Eric. You can get Dragons Blood from the UK ebay site for under a tenner.
> 
> Ed



Ed, that's probably processed. It is not the same as pure. Read the DB thread.


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## Ozpaph (Apr 2, 2016)

very helpful - thanks David.


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## Happypaphy7 (Apr 2, 2016)

I would have pitched the first two, although the second one might be salvageable after much time because of the affected area that are damaged (this should be removed).

The second one still has rather "fresh" disease marks. See how wet it looks?
You don't want the juice out of those marks as it is full of stuff. lol
I would cut those leaves off. 

The last one could easily be saved.

Good luck!


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## NYEric (Apr 2, 2016)

I am saving 2 plants in the same or worse condition than the first with Dragon's blood, I will take photos for when I can finally post.


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## Happypaphy7 (Apr 2, 2016)

The first one has center rotten.
Worse than that would be a dead plant? oke:


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## emydura (Apr 2, 2016)

Happypaphy7 said:


> The first one has center rotten.
> Worse than that would be a dead plant? oke:



A plant with rot in the centre is still capable of putting out healthy new leads. I have a roth that got rot in the centre and it subsequently put out two new leads. 18 months later those two growths are now about 30-40 cm wide. It is the fastest growing roth in my collection.


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## Happypaphy7 (Apr 2, 2016)

Great! It's tough save. 
I guess if somehow crown rot stops and does not progress deep in the center, it's possible. 

How did you arrest the rot?


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## C. Rothschild (Apr 2, 2016)

*Hmm*

I don't really have any better advice but I'd think they would have a better chance if they have good roots. Or at least they'd grow out new leaves faster I assume.


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## emydura (Apr 3, 2016)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Great! It's tough save.
> I guess if somehow crown rot stops and does not progress deep in the center, it's possible.
> 
> How did you arrest the rot?



I just soak it either in mancozeb or Physan (see above). I rarely find however when I get rot that it spreads rapidly throughout the plant and totally destroys it. Even when it gets in the crown the growth doesn't turn to mush and quickly die. I find the centre leaf may rot and as a result that growth never flowers. But then it just sends out new leads. Maybe this is a difference between bacterial and fungal rots.


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## Happypaphy7 (Apr 3, 2016)

Well, I never found physan to be effective for anything. 

The description does not fit erwinia, then, which spreads very fast and turn plant into a mushy mess. 

When I had rot ( three plants in the last few years, and they were all new purchase in spike), it happened at the very center, not even the leaves, but inside the center of the plant base.
It was the end. I tossed them as soon as I found the rot.


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## NYEric (Apr 3, 2016)

Happypaphy7 said:


> The first one has center rotten.
> Worse than that would be a dead plant? oke:



You live close enough. Do you want to come see?


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## Happypaphy7 (Apr 3, 2016)

Why don't you post a picture?
Is your near dead plant making a come back??


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## NYEric (Apr 4, 2016)

I dont have a computer. I'm posting on my GF's pad.yes, rots stopped, leaves growing green or new growth s starting.


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## phraggy (Apr 4, 2016)

NYEric said:


> Ed, that's probably processed. It is not the same as pure. Read the DB thread.


. 

Eric. This is what I bought on ebay. The wording on the bottle says 100% Sangro de Grado---- herb America(tm) Murphy.

Ed


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## SlipperKing (Apr 4, 2016)

When was the last time it was repotted? I have always found it beneficial to un-pot clean up the root system, trim off any bad areas, hit it with the cinnamon or antibiotics. Many times the source of the rot is coming up from the roots and you don't know it until pops out on the bottom of the leaves. I would start with way less organic components in the mix as well.


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## gonewild (Apr 4, 2016)

phraggy said:


> .
> 
> Eric. This is what I bought on ebay. The wording on the bottle says 100% Sangro de Grado---- herb America(tm) Murphy.
> 
> Ed



FYI....

The value of the wording satisfies the legal labeling but is cleverly misleading.

All commercially distributed Sangre de Grado is processed. There is no way to collect the pure resin and be able to offer the product at the low online prices the trees just don't yield enough free flowing resin. The traditional method of collecting the resin is the same a how rubber trees are tapped, make cuts in the bark and collect the drops of "blood" as the tree "bleeds". This pure resin is the final unprocessed natural product that has been in use by local people for.....(for ever?).

The modern commercial collectors have devised a method to have more product from a tree. But the method is destructive and eliminates the trees future production. Fortunately the species grows a replacement fast, so the method is sustainable (but still destructive).
The commercial process is to cut the entire tree into little pieces, put wood, limbs and leaves into a pot of water and boil it down until the consistency is like the natural sap. This way they can get 50 gallons of processed resin from a tree, one time, as opposed to 1/2 liter per year. Very destructive process that leads to the older collectors returning to their heritage trees to find that someone has cut them down. 

Why does the process matter for use on plants? Because the heat of boiling alters the natural product. And most of the commercial supplies have alcohol added to stabilize the solution. The alcohol is needed to keep the boiled (dead) liquid from spoiling.
The natural pure unheated resin contains living microbes and goes through a natural fermentation process and creates it's own alcohol that stabilizes the resin.... much the same as yogurt. The natural pure Dragon's Blood may very well contain lactic bacteria which would now classify it as a natural Probiotic.

Whatever part of the Dragon's Blood that works on the leaf problems is drastically reduced (or eliminated) in the commercial process. The commercial product still has a positive effect but much less so than the pure natural liquid.
:wink:


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## NYEric (Apr 4, 2016)

Thanks for the explanation. It would be interesting to compare against the pure resin. There is no doubt in my mind that the pure resin works.


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## gonewild (Apr 4, 2016)

NYEric said:


> Thanks for the explanation. It would be interesting to compare against the pure resin. There is no doubt in my mind that the pure resin works.



I did the comparison. In the beginning I was interested in finding a lower cost supply. I tried several commercial labels and they did not give the same result. (no science just my observation)
They still had positive effect but noticeably less than the pure local supplies. For me the price difference was negated by the improved results of the more expensive local resin. 
Then when I learned that the commercial suppliers were stealing whole trees from the traditional Nativo collectors all my personal doubts were eliminated. 

But the real important difference to orchid collectors is the negative alteration of the liquid by heat and added alcohol. One Nativo Shaman told me the excessive boiling disables the doctor Spirit of the plant and the alcohol keeps it from ever returning sober. (Natives have a simple uncomplicated view)


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## phraggy (Apr 4, 2016)

Brilliant Lance, and like Eric, I thankyou for the full explanation. One never stops learning. When I get some rot ( inevitable ) I will try this and let you know if it's any good.

Ed


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## gonewild (Apr 4, 2016)

phraggy said:


> Brilliant Lance, and like Eric, I thankyou for the full explanation. One never stops learning. When I get some rot ( inevitable ) I will try this and let you know if it's any good.
> 
> Ed



You're welcome!


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## Harlz (Aug 13, 2016)

Thanks to all for the informative replies.

Only the Paph sukhakulii (3rd image) looks like it will survive. The Phaph bellatulum (middle image) has hung on after I cut off the rot but has gone down hill over winter with more rot forming. The first plant had the rot in the crown so it was disposed of.

The good news is that I seem to have contained the spread to other plants (I hope). I've been spraying regularly with diluted Benzalkonium chloride (sold as pool algaecide) alternating with a sulpher-based fungicide. I have yet to see Physan or Dragon's Blood available locally (Australia).

At a recent orchid fair I did get to chat briefly with Nick Zurcher of Nicky's Slippers. He suggested spraying regularly with a copper-based fungicide was the way. So I will try that this coming summer. 

I have seen there is a organic fungicide, EcoCarb, used in the here in the wine industry. I like the idea of using something less dangerous (to me) if possible. It's a food grade Potassium Bicarbonate which, according to the spiel, when applied to the foliage, changes the pH on the surface creating a more alkaline environment. The change in pH will disrupt the cellular processes of germinating fungal spores by inhibiting any growth and preventing potential spreading. I wonder if that's going to upset the pH in potting media or maybe it will work well?


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## Stone (Aug 13, 2016)

I'm pretty sure this is Colleotrichum gleosporioides. Known as ''Anthracnose'' It is very common and attacks all kinds of plants. It's fungal not bacterial. I get it from time to time. It can kill plants!
Soak the plants in Zaleton (Bunnings) to stop it and Mancozeb (ebay) to prevent it.
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...ved=0ahUKEwjd64Tuw73OAhXHVZQKHdjCB4YQ_AUIBigB


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## Harlz (Aug 13, 2016)

Stone said:


> I'm pretty sure this is Colleotrichum gleosporioides. It is very common and attacks all kinds of plants. It's fungal not bacterial. I get it from time to time. It can kill plants!
> Soak the plants in Zaleton (Bunnings) to stop it and Mancozeb (ebay) to prevent it.
> https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...ved=0ahUKEwjd64Tuw73OAhXHVZQKHdjCB4YQ_AUIBigB



Wow, thanks for that. It is a nasty one that's for sure. In my case it seems only to affect Paphs as I have Sarcochilus and Zygopetulums growing on the same shelf.


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## NYEric (Aug 13, 2016)

Bleach the shelf while you're treating the plants.


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## Stone (Aug 17, 2016)

Here's the same **** on my kovachii. I JUMPED on it as soon as I spotted it and no more problems since.
I used Zaleton and cinnamon and Mancozeb for good measure. (separately)


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