# Slippertalk Judging & Awards Proposal



## John Boy (Feb 14, 2012)

Hiya Folks, 
*I’d like to find out your opinion!*

I have a feeling that it is about time we (Slippertalkers) *create our own little “Best Off”, or call it “Judging Corner”. *
I can’t see a reason for not having one. We have outrageously beautiful plants here on a daily basis, we have people with nothing but orchids filling their heads 24/7 (I’m happy to be the first one to admitting to it), and every once in a while, we’re shown true greatness, which (just to pick a case) will not always be presented to a judging for practical reasons. *I have thought about this proposal a lot*. It would probably mean further work and effort for someone. I’ll be happy to carry some of the work, if I get people to guide me as well as carry some of the work involved. Would it be worth it? To be frank: I don’t think we have a choice. It’s too important, to preserve what we’re taking for granted on a daily basis.

I have a strong feeling that Slippertalk can easily help overcoming these geographical or even personal obstacles of getting a plant judged in the traditional sense of the meaning. Slippertalk, as far as I’m concerned is the ultimate source for Paphiopedilum Know How on this plant. Slippertalk has become a corner stone,_ like it or not. _

*Shouldn’t we have a system in place to recognise totally outstanding achievements ourselves?*

I’m perfectly fine with the AOS judging system, or would grant any professional society worldwide to do their work properly, but the Internet has come to a point, where we as a Forum can fill the gaps that some people might face, when it comes to physically show up at a judging centre. Some folks might even oppose the idea as such. Even these people could benefit from what we, stepping in with our combined knowledge can do for the benefit of a greater good, which ultimately would not only be a vain or folly line of showing off some random plants, but expose the ultimately possible achievement, for others to set a standard, as well as for future breeders to see what’s out there. 

*I propose a judging system right here within Slippertalk. 
*
Who is qualified? *We all are!* (Strength in numbers!!!)

Should it be limited to Slipper Orchids only? *You tell me!* Show me a 12 flowered Cattleya dowiana, and I guess we all know the answer!

Should it be proper judging, which in the case of a “just a photo” would be difficult, or should it just recognise greatness? *You tell me!*

How would you go about a scoring system? 30 Slippertalkers saying a plant should be given a FCC/Slippertalk? 50 People recommending a plant for a CCM? You tell me what you feel would make sense, as well as what’s needed for an international impact!

Should we make an effort to further promote these outstanding plants? By all means, you tell me what you think!

I don’t know much, but I know this much:

There have been so many outstanding cultural achievements presented in this forum, that it’s time to take things to a next level.

What I’d love to achieve here is a collection of aspects you consider important. In your opinion: Is it worth pushing something like this uphill? My basis for this request for the time being is Davids outstanding!!! Paph. dianthum which I’ve saved as Paph. dianthum “Try This”, though it’s for David to give that plant a cultivar. It’s basically just: what kicked me off!


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## emydura (Feb 14, 2012)

Thanks John.

I really like the idea of a SlipperTalk "Hall of Fame" where the very best plants as judged by the forum members, are recognised. Many wonderful plants get posted. However these exceptional plants maybe up for a week or so never to be seen again. The very best should be more easily and readily seen. It would also be great for new members to see some of the wonderful plants they may have missed in the past. I think a "Hall of Fame" is a great promotion for Slippertalk in general showcasing the best of our forum. It would also obviously be a thrill to the member involved having their plant recognised by their peers.

Whether you want to have points like in a traditional judging sense I am not sure. Maybe just entry to the "Hall of Fame" is enough. 

I think it is a great idea John and well worth implementing.


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## Shiva (Feb 14, 2012)

I agree. There should be a Hall of Fame on this forum. I would also suggest we send the best pictures to OrchidWiz with the mention ''SlipperTalk Hall of Fame Photos''. I am not involved in any way in this database but it's one of the best place to see pictures of orchids that have never won an official award. Of course, ST members would have to give their consent for this to happen. Thanks John for trying to push the envelope. You have my vote.


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## Gcroz (Feb 14, 2012)

I like this idea! I think an HOF would be great. Perhaps, to be fair, photos could be submitted to a special section and have members vote Yea or Nay. After a certain period of time, voting stops and the winner(s) are moved to the HOF. Also, voters would have to "register" to vote so that only active people would vote and also to be able to work out a percentage to "win". Just my $0.02!

I've also thought that a great promotion for the site would be a "Slippertalk" Trophy that societies could award at their shows. Kinda like an Orchid Digest trophy...


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## Gcroz (Feb 14, 2012)

Also, I'd be happy to assist in planning/implementation if you need any help.


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## Rick (Feb 14, 2012)

Without spending a lot of time thinking about this, my first off the cuff remark is that I think it would be a good idea to create a "best grown" or "best presented" site. With internal judging. This would showcase really well grown plants like David's dianthum 

But because of the limitations on just seeing photos, I'd be hard pressed to do this with individual flowers. Lighting /color rendition, sizes, are hard to determine "greatness" without comparison to standards. And we pretty much give thumbs up or thumbs down status to just about any flower photo that hits the forum now.

But as the ST membership grows with both numbers of members and experience/expertise of the membership, we could start a big enough data base to work this from an individual flower basis by collecting AQ (Awards Quarterly) like data on awarded flowers. 

Am I just rambling or making sense


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## Rick (Feb 14, 2012)

I would also be concerned that this is accomplished to not cause people to be intimidated and not want to post their flowers on the site if they don't stack up to "greatness".


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## eggshells (Feb 14, 2012)

Rick said:


> I would also be concerned that this is accomplished to not cause people to be intimidated and not want to post their flowers on the site if they don't stack up to "greatness".



Or it may serve as an inspiration for more folks to see the real capabilities of such slipper beauty. I think it will be great!


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## emydura (Feb 14, 2012)

Gcroz said:


> I like this idea! I think an HOF would be great. Perhaps, to be fair, photos could be submitted to a special section and have members vote Yea or Nay. After a certain period of time, voting stops and the winner(s) are moved to the HOF. Also, voters would have to "register" to vote so that only active people would vote and also to be able to work out a percentage to "win". Just my $0.02!



I personally think that it would not be best for people to submit their own photos for a vote but that it would be better for others to decide whether it is worthy of inclusion in the "HOF". Maybe anyone from a small informed panel can determine whether a plant is worthy of inclusion from which point the rest of the forum can then vote. 



Rick said:


> Without spending a lot of time thinking about this, my first off the cuff remark is that I think it would be a good idea to create a "best grown" or "best presented" site. With internal judging. This would showcase really well grown plants like David's dianthum
> 
> But because of the limitations on just seeing photos, I'd be hard pressed to do this with individual flowers. Lighting /color rendition, sizes, are hard to determine "greatness" without comparison to standards. And we pretty much give thumbs up or thumbs down status to just about any flower photo that hits the forum now.
> 
> ...



Yes, I'd agree that this idea suits CCM plants best as you don't really need to see the flower in person to judge them well. Still I didn't need to see any more of Aquagem's Paph Spiderman to know that was an amazing clone. The WOW factor does certainly come from specimen plants in full flower so the concentration can be on those. But the inclusion of amazing clones can still occur where warranted.


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## SlipperFan (Feb 14, 2012)

Interesting idea. I'd certainly vote for David's dianthum!


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## Gcroz (Feb 14, 2012)

emydura said:


> I personally think that it would not be best for people to submit their own photos for a vote but that it would be better for others to decide whether it is worthy of inclusion in the "HOF". Maybe anyone from a small informed panel can determine whether a plant is worthy of inclusion from which point the rest of the forum can then vote.



My point of putting it to a vote is that a "small informed panel" can result in resentment. How would you determine who is "informed?" What about personality conflicts between members and the potential for bias?

Putting the plants to a membership vote of those who have "registered" to vote for HOF inclusion would be, in my mind, more egalitarian.


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## Rick (Feb 14, 2012)

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21373

I would also nominate Rose's mega gardnerii.

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23266

and Slipperkings CCM MK!

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23183&highlight=armeniacum
and JPMC's basket armeniacum


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Feb 14, 2012)

I like the idea, but I also agree with the concept of not wanting to intimidate people who are new to the forum, or who are just starting out, from posting photos. We should start slowly, see how it works out. I like the idea of a Hall of Fame for starters...no scores, no awards, just acknowledgment. If that works out well, maybe we can take things to another level. How about, each photo posted has a little button, say, labeled HOF. (Kind of like the "like" button on Facebook and other places.) A certain number of HOF's are clicked, and the picture goes to an HOF gallery, divided into the current photo categories we already have. If it works, we can take it further from there.


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## emydura (Feb 15, 2012)

Gcroz said:


> My point of putting it to a vote is that a "small informed panel" can result in resentment. How would you determine who is "informed?" What about personality conflicts between members and the potential for bias?
> 
> Putting the plants to a membership vote of those who have "registered" to vote for HOF inclusion would be, in my mind, more egalitarian.



It sort of depends on the format this takes. If it is meant to replicate the standard judging system then people would be responsible for entering their plants to be judged. If it is more a HOF then I don't think they should. Normally in a HOF you don't ask to join but are told you will be inducted. I think that is better myself. 

How you determine what enters the HOF is the hard part. Simply having the ability to vote on every plant that is ever posted may get a bit unwieldy. You need to have some quality control to ensure consistency and quality. I was just suggesting a combination of a panel for shortlisting with membership making the final decision.

That is just my 2 cents worth.


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## Marc (Feb 15, 2012)

I think it's an excellent idea and the David's dianthum is a a very good example that deserves to be awarded because of the size and flower count. This would our form of an FCC if I'm not mistaken ( I'm not an expert regarding AOS / RHS juding ).

However judging plants with low flower count on criteria as colour and size will be more difficult when using photo's as a medium. A lot of the pictures posted here are processed through software and compact camera's do a lot of processing of their own. I do this myself as well, but by doing so it will become very hard to actually judge the actual colours of the flower.

Still I support this idea and I would love to see how we as a community are able to work out a viable concept.


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## Shiva (Feb 15, 2012)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> I like the idea, but I also agree with the concept of not wanting to intimidate people who are new to the forum, or who are just starting out, from posting photos.



Eric, I disagree with you on this. We've all been beginners. I remember all the great plants brought on the show table when I first joined my society in 1980, and I just drooled over them. I remember how clumsy I was when I posted my first photos on the Forum and I never felt intimidated by others. I learned from them, I drooled over their photos. If we do this, let's not be bland or politically correct. Let people learn from others. The HOF idea must be the goal we all set ourselves by.


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## Heather (Feb 15, 2012)

I'm thinking about this. I think it could be fun. Just trying to figure out the best way to implement it. I like the voting option…Then we just need to open a new forum for it. 

I do however think all judging is subjective so what about some sort of "advisory council" of the judges on the forum? A group to point out why yes or why no….

Let me mull this over a bit more...


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## Heather (Feb 15, 2012)

Additionally - my techie guy is a little busy the next couple months. By the end of the annual auction I hope we'll be in a place to upgrade but I'm not sure about the whole button thing…we'll see. Under promise, over deliver.


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## jtrmd (Feb 15, 2012)

I responded to this once already,but I will do it again.


I think its a good idea.I think enough of us here have been growing long enough to make a good judgement of the quality from a photo.Hell,we might be better than some of the actual AOS judges out there.We are all adults here and I don't think anyone will get their butt hurt from some constructive criticism,I know I wouldn't.I know ugly when I see it,and there's a little more ugly out in the GH then good/great blooms.I just dont share them.HAHAHA!


I would also like to know if there's a Hall of Fame,we will we have a Hall of Shame?If we have the Hall of Shame I could post photos of things before they get tossed.I just threw out half dozen cymbidiums away that like crap.


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## Shiva (Feb 15, 2012)

I suggest we start with a Hall of Fame for now. There is a long way to go yet. And let's not forget that flowers are to be judged, not people.


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## Candace (Feb 15, 2012)

Sounds kind of fun if we could get it implemented. And that's a big if since the techies may have a lot to do!


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## jtrmd (Feb 15, 2012)

Shiva said:


> And let's not forget that flowers are to be judged, not people.



I would be bad at that,because I pretty much start out disliking everybody at first.I find its better that way,so your not disappointed when you realize they suck.I guess you can say I am a 'professional hater' or shorts.


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## John Boy (Feb 15, 2012)

Or maybe just a realist?


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## jtrmd (Feb 15, 2012)

John Boy said:


> Or maybe just a realist?




That's what I tell the wife all the time,especially when she says ''If you Don't have anything nice to Say, don't Say anything at all''. I am now banished to the car,if we have to go to Walmart for something.The area of Baltimore I live in has the worst people in it,but best people watching.You could be Joseph Merrick and when you come out,you would feel like the sexiest man on the planet.I think there's a website just dedicated to pictures of people in Walmart across the country.I would imagine its NSFW ,so I'm not going to bother looking it up to see if it exists still.


PS-sorry for getting off track and stealing the thread for a little bit.


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## Shiva (Feb 15, 2012)

jtrmd said:


> I would be bad at that,because I pretty much start out disliking everybody at first.I find its better that way,so your not disappointed when you realize they suck.I guess you can say I am a 'professional hater' or shorts.



I'm a professional liker...and I get disappointed a lot. I have an insanely high ''hormone level'' of optimism and fairness. And I won't apologize if I suck. So consider all of you guys liked until proven otherwise.


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## jtrmd (Feb 15, 2012)

Shiva said:


> I'm a professional liker...and I get disappointed a lot. I have an insanely high ''hormone level'' of optimism and fairness. And I won't apologize if I suck. So consider all of you guys liked until proven otherwise.




I haven't came across anyone who sucks here either,but I cant say that some of the other Orchid forums.


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## Shiva (Feb 15, 2012)

jtrmd said:


> I haven't came across anyone who sucks here either,but I cant say that some of the other Orchid forums.



That's why I'm here!


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## gonewild (Feb 15, 2012)

jtrmd said:


> I haven't came across anyone who sucks here either



Just wait until they start criticizing your prize flowers! :evil:
"If the petals were a little less pointed it would have made the Hall of Fame"
"But I prefer more pointed petals"
"Those judges "suck"" 
:wink:


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## jtrmd (Feb 15, 2012)

gonewild said:


> Just wait until they start criticizing your prize flowers! :evil:
> "If the petals were a little less pointed it would have made the Hall of Fame"
> "But I prefer more pointed petals"
> "Those judges "suck""
> :wink:




HAHAHAHAHA!


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## ohio-guy (Feb 15, 2012)

Perhaps we could start with a hall of fame that is open for voting by all registered members , but once a plant gets enough votes, it can then be reviewed for 
'blue ribbon status' or something as a second tier by a small group of more experienced members. That way we all can participate on noting what we like, and from that pool, we would then see what is judged superior.


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## jtrmd (Feb 15, 2012)

Wait till I start making dancing paph videos to bad music,like I seen on another paph forum.i promise they will be coming soon.



How many of you are accredited or student judges?


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## Kevin (Feb 15, 2012)

I like the idea of a Hall of Fame. Sort of along the same lines, I think there could also be one for photography. We have some excellent photos of high quality and well grown plants, and excellent photos period. 

Would it be feasible to have a calendar made of photos of some of the plants that make it into the Hall of Fame? Maybe a bit early for that, but we could have a calendar anyway, of photos of plants posted on Slippertalk. We could vote on which ones we want in there. Maybe a fundraiser for ST? I see now that this sholuld be in a different thread, but it kind of ties in.


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## tocarmar (Feb 15, 2012)

I like this idea!! I think we should start small & grow it to see how it goes. But we would have to consider the parentage of plants also.. i.e. If the plant is already awarded it should not be allowed in our judging. It might be a way to also get some more well deserved plants awarded if they bring them to an AOS sactioned show!!


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Feb 15, 2012)

Shiva- You misunderstood me. We are actually in agreement. I like the HOF idea because its strictly informative and supportive.


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## Gcroz (Feb 15, 2012)

Heather-

I would be careful about an "advisory council!" How would you feel if people you didn't know decided your favorite plant was crap by their standards. I respect many people here, even the controversial ones. However, I would be very upset if my favorite plants were denied HOF status because a few people decided they didn't like it, or didn't like me. My $0.02 open it up to voting by active members in a separate section.

I have enough enemies here not to have to worry about them on an "advisory council."


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## jtrmd (Feb 15, 2012)

Gcroz said:


> Heather-
> 
> I would be careful about an "advisory council!" How would you feel if people you didn't know decided your favorite plant was crap by their standards. I respect many people here, even the controversial ones. However, I would be very upset if my favorite plants were denied HOF status because a few people decided they didn't like it, or didn't like me. My $0.02 open it up to voting by active members in a separate section.
> 
> I have enough enemies here not to have to worry about them on an "advisory council."





Welcome to the world of Orchid Judging.It's the low ballers when it comes to scoring plants that gets me.LOL!


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## Shiva (Feb 16, 2012)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> Shiva- You misunderstood me. We are actually in agreement. I like the HOF idea because its strictly informative and supportive.



Thanks for the precision Eric!


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## Gcroz (Feb 16, 2012)

jtrmd said:


> Welcome to the world of Orchid Judging.It's the low ballers when it comes to scoring plants that gets me.LOL!



Oh... don't get me started on Orchid Judging...... the thread would be X-rated for profanity!


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## SlipperKing (Feb 16, 2012)

I'm getting in here late but at least I'm not sorry! I think the best way and fairest way for a HOF is anonymous, anonymous, anonymous. Meaning Membership nominations, membership voting. Such as,no one can nominate their own flowers, membership votes and those are displayed for all to see and major rules. We would have to have a cut off for voting e.g. % of the membership and a time limit. I think our society has to have 51% of the activity membership present when voting in new officers for the following year and I believe we get 2 meetings (2 months) to decide on the nominees.


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## slipperscout (Feb 17, 2012)

What is to judged in an award system, outstanding photographs of a mediocre flower, outstanding cultural achievement, flower quality by AOS standards or ????
Does an award system create or foster cliques? The AOS judging system has been accused of this. 
What is the purpose of the Slippertalk Forum??
Would development of an award system encourage or discourage newbies to paph growing?
What ego needs would a new award system meet that cannot be found elsewhere?
Just food for thought.


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## slippertalker (Feb 17, 2012)

This comes down to a photo contest.....despite opinions to the contrary, pictures aren't always an accurate view of the quality of a flower. Lighting, camera angle and photoshopping can all skew the perception. Nice idea, but keep in mind that creative, good photography as well as manipulation will impact the viewer. 

There is nothing like seeing the plant in person.


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## Marc (Feb 17, 2012)

Maybe there should always be the option to opt in / opt out of the juding system.


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## tomkalina (Feb 17, 2012)

I agree with Bill; the HOF sounds like it's going to be based on who takes the best photo, not who has the highest quality plant. AOS judges are require to review awards photos from various judging regions on a regular basis; in fact it's part of our continuing education program. Many times, we look at an awards photo and wonder "how could they have awarded that"? The fact is, you have to be there; you have to be able to touch the flower to gauge it's substance, look at it from various angles to describe it's texture and actually bring the plant to a natural light source to be able to describe the flower color accurately. You can't do this looking at a photo.

Finally, we've all had occasions to question the objectivity of the AOS judging system. I've done it myself. But todays AOS judges training program is not yesterday's; today we have modern tools such as OrchidWiz and AQ+ to help determine awardability on a more objective basis. If you have doubts about your AOS judging center, get involved. Ask questions, be an observer on a judging team and see close up what we do. At the end of each monthly judging in the Chicago center, every plant researched is presented after judging by an AOS judge, usually a student, and it's attributes are discussed; why it was or wasn't awarded, and the owner of the plant is allowed to question the judging team's decision.

Sorry for the length of the response. Enjoy your plants, grow them well and display them with pride, but whatever you do, don't base your estimation of their beauty on some judge's score sheet or an HOF award. 


Thanks,


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## emydura (Feb 17, 2012)

I think people are making the mistake that this should be an online equivalent of an AOC award. I personally think they are unrelated and should be judged differently. You are right about the difficulty in judging individual flowers by photos. That is why the focus should be more of a cultural award than a flower quality award. I don't need to see a rothschildianum with 10 spikes in person to be able to determine whether it is pretty special. Personally I think a cultural award is a much more significant achievement anyway. It is a reward of a persons ability to grow an orchid exceptionally well.

As for the argument that photography skills will have an impact on whether an orchid is successful or not. Of course it will and what's wrong with that. It is an online competition judged with photos. That is all part of the whole package. The same as you would clean the leaves on your plant and stake it well before presenting it to the judges. Here you have to take a nice photo as well. It might help people improve their photography. At the end of the day, if the HOF award is more culturally based, you still have to grow the plant well enough to have multiple spikes etc. Great photography won't help you otherwise.


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## Rick (Feb 17, 2012)

Yes David.

That's where my comments were coming from too. I think it will be a more doable thing to push this into the direction of HOF culturing.

When individuals plants do better, we all can learn, and if we all learn then we do better for the hobby and the plants.

I would love to see ST members gain the credibility to influence CITES for developing ex situ breeding programs of endangered species.


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## fibre (Feb 18, 2012)

emydura said:


> I think people are making the mistake that this should be an online equivalent of an AOC award. I personally think they are unrelated and should be judged differently. You are right about the difficulty in judging individual flowers by photos. That is why the focus should be more of a cultural award than a flower quality award. I don't need to see a rothschildianum with 10 spikes in person to be able to determine whether it is pretty special. Personally I think a cultural award is a much more significant achievement anyway. It is a reward of a persons ability to grow an orchid exceptionally well.
> 
> 
> As for the argument that photography skills will have an impact on whether an orchid is successful or not. Of course it will and what's wrong with that. It is an online competition judged with photos. That is all part of the whole package. The same as you would clean the leaves on your plant and stake it well before presenting it to the judges. Here you have to take a nice photo as well. It might help people improve their photography. At the end of the day, if the HOF award is more culturally based, you still have to grow the plant well enough to have multiple spikes etc. Great photography won't help you otherwise.



David, I agree absolutely! A HOF for the very best cultivated plants doesn't need perfect photographs. 
On the other site, we all have to know that a good Paph needs a good photo! I personally don't like bad pics of good Paphs. So I don't like to see those pics in a HOF. A good Paph needs a good presentation, that meens a good photograph in the case of an online presentation.


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## Rick (Feb 18, 2012)

fibre said:


> David, I agree absolutely! A HOF for the very best cultivated plants doesn't need perfect photographs.
> On the other site, we all have to know that a good Paph needs a good photo! I personally don't like bad pics of good Paphs. So I don't like to see those pics in a HOF. A good Paph needs a good presentation, that meens a good photograph in the case of an online presentation.



Does that mean we can't use a beer can or cigarette for scale


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## fibre (Feb 18, 2012)

Rick said:


> Does that mean we can't use a beer can or cigarette for scale



You got it! :clap:


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