# Strange question on Neofinetia breeding



## Jorch (Apr 10, 2009)

I came across a picture of Neofinetia falcata 紅天瞳 (Koutentou) on a website, and it has peachy color flower with pink tip and spur. Is it a naturally occuring Neofinetia variety or a man-made hybrid (breeding pink flower Neo with yellow flower Neo together)? 

I am just curious if any breeding has been done between color-flower clones.. such as (pink x green), (yellow x pink), etc etc.. and what the offspring will look like? Or are neofinetias reluctant breeders and even selfing the flowers will not give viable seedpods?


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## likespaphs (Apr 10, 2009)

i know very little about Neos but i've heard that some/many people think that yellow Neos came from out crossing it to a closely related species, i forget which, though...


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## Heather (Apr 10, 2009)

I think it's a vanda cross. Jason F. knows about it. So does Jon in SW Ohio.
Dr. Orchid, Robert, probably knows too.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Apr 10, 2009)

You pose not a strange question, but a rather intelligent one that remains a hot topic for fuukiran growers the world over. I've inquired about this to various growers in the past and the responses I've got back were highly varied. Some fuukiran with really weird flowers and/or colored flowers are true variations of N. falcata. Some examples would include 'seikai', 'unkai', 'shunnkyden' - all certainly the pure species. 

Others, especially the yellow forms, are very suspect such as 'kikutome' and 'ogonmaru'. These no doubt have Ascocentrum in their genes. Even the "wild collected" yellow variants should be looked at suspiciously. I know of one case where yellow plants were made in the lab, put out into the wild, and later "discovered", collected, and sold as yellow wild plants. The other day I was looking at the green flowered 'hisui' in my collection and I couldn't help but see that the leaves have a very different look about them, very unlike most N. falcata. I've seen thousands of N. falcata and all I can say is that this one's leaves don't feel quite right...does that mean they are of hybrid origin? No, but something is nagging me....

The purple variants are another interesting group...are they true N. falcata? Some growers say, "definitely", others I've talked to say, "no way". Case in point, 'benisuzume', an easily grown plant and commonly sold. One grower I deal with says the original plants came from the island of Shikoku and most plants in cultivation are seedlings of that original selection. Another very experienced grower laughs at that idea - in his mind they are obviously influenced by Ascocentrum. 

I must say at this point I really don't care anymore. There is a lot of money floating around the fuukiran trade between private parties and also through vendors. That has lead to less than scrupulous dealings and the situation is likely to continue. Fuukiran are a Japanese tradition, but now the Koreans are highly involved in making new forms and a lot of plants are coming in now from China as well. How to sort that all out? An impossible task if you ask me!


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## SlipperFan (Apr 10, 2009)

Don't sweat the petty things.
Don't pet the sweaty things.

That says it all, Tom!


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## Ron-NY (Apr 10, 2009)

SlipperFan said:


> Don't sweat the petty things.
> Don't pet the sweaty things.
> 
> That says it all, Tom!


:clap::clap::clap:

I have to remember that saying. 


Tom, I was recently looking at my small 'hisui' and wondering the same thing.


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## PaphMadMan (Apr 10, 2009)

SlipperFan said:


> Don't sweat the petty things.
> Don't pet the sweaty things.
> 
> That says it all, Tom!



I've always heard it as:

Don't sweat the petty things... 
Pet the sweaty things.

Could be more fun that way. :evil:


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## PaphMadMan (Apr 10, 2009)

Jorch said:


> I came across a picture of Neofinetia falcata 紅天瞳 (Koutentou) on a website, and it has peachy color flower with pink tip and spur. Is it a naturally occuring Neofinetia variety or a man-made hybrid (breeding pink flower Neo with yellow flower Neo together)?
> 
> I am just curious if any breeding has been done between color-flower clones.. such as (pink x green), (yellow x pink), etc etc.. and what the offspring will look like? Or are neofinetias reluctant breeders and even selfing the flowers will not give viable seedpods?



There has been such a long history in Japanese culture of growing Neos that I would expect that most of the natural variablity in the species should have been known long ago. Any major variations that weren't known in the historical period before in vitro propagation of orchids began (1920s I think) could be suspect unless very well documented in the wild. Of course, intensive selective breeding and mass propagation of rare types would have started after that too. The technology to figure it out for sure exists, if someone is looking for a research topic in horticultural genetics with a historical twist.


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## Jorch (Apr 10, 2009)

I do agree that some of the color varieties might not be pure species, but I don't really care as long as I enjoy the flower and the fragrance.  

Neo blooming season is coming in a few months.. perhaps I'll be naughty with my toothpick and see what the result will be?  How long does it take for Neofinetias to bloom from flask?


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## Ron-NY (Apr 10, 2009)

I would imagine 3-5 years to blooming, from flask


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## Lanmark (Oct 27, 2009)

'Koutentou' is definitely considered by most reputable Japanese growers to be a hybrid and not a pure form of Neofinetia falcata. That being said, it's still a popular variety simply because it's beautiful.


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## neo-guy (Oct 27, 2009)

There is also a form called 'Yubae'. Reportedly a cross between a yellow and a pink. The flowers I've seen are yellow with pink spurs and stem!
Other color forms like peach and salmon exist, but all probably contain some ascocentrum in the background.
Pete


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## Roth (Oct 27, 2009)

As far as neofinetia is concerned, there is little doubt quite a lot of the colored forms are hybrids. 

Pink ones would be x ascocentrum pusillum most likely, or maybe another crap. Neofinetia is quite dominant in the flower shape, so it is not really surprising...

Another thing that always bothers me is that the price of the neofinetia is grossly exaggerated. I suspect there are already clones sold, but otherwise, if one man wants to buy the most expensive ones and clone them to convert them into Walmart plants, it would not take very long. An old specimen perfectly grown is worthwhile however, like for any other species.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Oct 27, 2009)

One way to tell if Ascocentrum is involved is spur length - the shorter it is, the more likely you've got a hybrid. Of course with complex back crossing the spur length can increase. Here's a little beauty I picked up this summer with only the fanciful name 'Aochatsuki' (Blue Tea Moon). It was being sold alongside fuukiran at a local nursery:







Definitely a hybrid, but what a beauty! Those are the real colors.


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## Lanmark (Oct 27, 2009)

Ooooooh that's a pretty one, KyushuCalanthe! Does it have any fragrance? Some of my yellow Neos have a scent which is good but different from and generally not as potent as my true species Neo plants.


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## SlipperFan (Oct 27, 2009)

OK, Tom, now I have another plant to look for!

Mark, if you ever see one for sale...


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## Ron-NY (Oct 27, 2009)

that is a beauty Tom!


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## KyushuCalanthe (Oct 27, 2009)

Lanmark said:


> Ooooooh that's a pretty one, KyushuCalanthe! Does it have any fragrance? Some of my yellow Neos have a scent which is good but different from and generally not as potent as my true species Neo plants.



Yup, the scent was a bit off for a true neo. Also, it flowered in late spring a full two months prior to most true fuukiran.


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## Jorch (Oct 27, 2009)

wow!!! That's gorgeous, Tom! :drool:


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## JeanLux (Oct 28, 2009)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> ..
> ... but what a beauty! *Those are the real colors*.



:drool::clap::drool: Jean


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