# Accuracy of home viruse tests



## koshki (Apr 7, 2011)

I recently purchased an orchid (phal equestris) that had leaves I thought were suspect. So I bought some test strips from Agdia and tested a leaf.

It came up positive for both ORSV and CymMV. I contacted the seller, who responded that the plants couldn't possibly be virused, since they are collected in the wild, and that those tests are not worth the money; if I really wanted it tested I'd have to send it to a lab.

So, are either of these statements true?


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## SlipperFan (Apr 7, 2011)

Is he saying that wild-collected plants cannot be virused? Unbelievable.


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## koshki (Apr 7, 2011)

That kind of threw me, since it was supposed to be a 'Cherryvale'. Do they have awarded plants in the wild?

Do you have experience with these tests? Do you know how accurate they are?


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## likespaphs (Apr 7, 2011)

koshki said:


> ...the seller, who responded that the plants couldn't possibly be virused, since they are collected in the wild....



well, did they spend any time in the seller's greenhouse/shadehouse where there could have been viruses present as well as the pests which spread them....?

i tried to find out any info i could about the accuracy of the test strips but couldn't. i was hoping it'd be on the agdia site but no


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## SlipperFan (Apr 7, 2011)

koshki said:


> That kind of threw me, since it was supposed to be a 'Cherryvale'. Do they have awarded plants in the wild?
> 
> Do you have experience with these tests? Do you know how accurate they are?





likespaphs said:


> well, did they spend any time in the seller's greenhouse/shadehouse where there could have been viruses present as well as the pests which spread them....?
> 
> i tried to find out any info i could about the accuracy of the test strips but couldn't. i was hoping it'd be on the agdia site but no


'Cherryvale' is the clonal name, but has it been awarded? If so, the tag should have the letters of that award, like "AM/AOS". Maybe someone who has Orchidwiz could check, if that's not on the tag.

But the fact that the plant has a clonal name means to me that the plant has been "in captivity" in someone's greenhouse long enough to have bloomed before, otherwise, it probably wouldn't have a clonal name.

I've not had any experience with the home kit virus tests, but if it tested positive, I think I would send a piece of to get tested professionally just to verify. If it tests postive again, you'd have a very good case to ask for a refund -- and get one.


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## Candace (Apr 7, 2011)

Home virus tests are very accurate, I'm afraid. The thing about the home tests is that they only test for the most frequently seen viruses. So, the issue is getting a negative means that it still could be positive for one of the lesser common viruses. Positive tests are very reliable, however. You can send a sample to Critter Creek Labs for like $5, but is it worth it to you to spend upwards of $10 on test sampling? It sounds like the vendor is sadly in denial.


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## koshki (Apr 7, 2011)

Dot, 'Cherryvale' is an awarded name from 1992, according to OrchidWiz. It's one of the reasons I bought it in the first place. And why I thought the answer I received was so silly.

What does having a sample tested at a facility cost? I didn't pay that much for the plant in the first place...

And likespaphs, I tried finding accuracy data, too, but was unable...which is a shame. I'd like to have data to go back to the vendor with.


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## koshki (Apr 7, 2011)

Candace, my experience with home tests is that they tend to be more accurate on the positive than the negative. In other words, it is more likely that a negative is really positive, than a positive is really negative.

I don't think it's denial...I think it's greed.


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## Candace (Apr 7, 2011)

If you used Agia test strips, go to their website. The accuracy data and other info. would be available to you there.


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## likespaphs (Apr 7, 2011)

wanna try to get in touch with them tomorrow?
they're in elkhart, in


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## Candace (Apr 7, 2011)

koshki said:


> Candace, my experience with home tests is that they tend to be more accurate on the positive than the negative. In other words, it is more likely that a negative is really positive, than a positive is really negative.
> 
> I don't think it's denial...I think it's greed.



Umm, that's basically what I wrote.


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## likespaphs (Apr 7, 2011)

Candace said:


> If you used Agia test strips, go to their website. The accuracy data and other info. would be available to you there.



i looked on the site and couldn't find it.


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## Candace (Apr 7, 2011)

Yeah, I couldn't find it either. A call to customer support or an e-mail would be in order. I always send sample to Critter Creek, so I don't use these.


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## koshki (Apr 8, 2011)

I thought I'd share my whole conversation:

ME: Dear ,

I purchased this orchid and the equestris alba transaction #150559187893 in February.

After reading other feedback about a plant, I became concerned that my plants were virused. I purchased test kits, and both plants are positive for both ORSV and CymMV.

I have not repotted these plants or cut the spikes...they have been isolated from all my other plants, so they could not have contracted these viruses here.

Please refund the cost of both plants and shipping charges.

Thank you,
Katherine 


VENDOR: Hello...Equestris are a wild specie they don't get this virus they grow in the wild, They are not with any other orchids and don't come in contact with people at all only when we pull them from the tree's to be potted for shipping and then they are pulled and potted with gloves..Your test kit's don't work at all i had one person that said this and found the test kits are wrong as you can see she has purchased more orchids.The only test kit's that work are from test labs we have over 200 viruses to date that are invading orchids one test kit will not work ones you buy for $10.00 to $20.00 forget it a waste of your money, research show's test 100 plants with over 80 different viruses in all... 68 show no virus 17 show only 3 virus and 15 tested with 2 viruses..All wrong just a head's up. All of our orchids are tested by the state before packing for virus, bugs and root rot..Your orchid's are fine they have nothing at all, Don't waste your money on cheap test kit's they don't work at all,If your worried about other orchid's you need to send them to a real lab for testing that is the only way to be sure...Thank you 

MY RESPONSE TODAY: So, you’re saying that if your plants test positive at a lab, you’ll refund my money?


Any bets on what the response will be?


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## koshki (Apr 8, 2011)

Candace said:


> Umm, that's basically what I wrote.



Candace, I should have been more clear...I was talking about my experience with home test kits for other issues...not orchids. I was extrapolating.


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## Erythrone (Apr 8, 2011)

Well... 

I really beleive that Agdia test kits are acurate when they are positive.... Last year when I begun testing, I tested the same "positive" plants many times and the results were always the same. Most of the plants were very old plants bought more than 10 years ago. 

Most of the newer plants were negative but for 2 plants (2 blue Cattleyas), the results were strange. The marks were very light on the strip. I first thought it was negative... I repeated many times and the results were always.... light marks in the strip ! I tested again several weeks later. Same results. I suppose that the plants were somewhat resistant to the virus ;

I don't know who is the vendor of your plant. I never received such a "strange" answer when I talked about virus in orchids with some growers in Canada and some US grower too. They were (almost) all more concern about the problem!


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## koshki (Apr 8, 2011)

Erythrone, I was surprised by the answer as well.


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## nikv (Apr 8, 2011)

I recommend that you also ask the seller to be compensated for the cost of the tests if and when they test positive for virus. After all, if the seller is insisting upon it before issuing a refund, they ought to be willing to cover the cost. Just my opinion.


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## koshki (Apr 8, 2011)

Nikv, that is a very good point! I like how you think!


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## Shiva (Apr 8, 2011)

koshki said:


> I recently purchased an orchid (phal equestris) that had leaves *I thought were suspect*. So I bought some test strips from Agdia and tested a leaf.



What exactly made you think of a possible virus? I'm just curious to know.


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## koshki (Apr 8, 2011)

Odd markings on the leaves that looked like photos of virused plants I've seen.

I'm sure I should have done something about this sooner, but I have never tested any plants before...still a bit of a newbie about these things.


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## Shiva (Apr 8, 2011)

koshki said:


> Odd markings on the leaves that looked like photos of virused plants I've seen.
> 
> I'm sure I should have done something about this sooner, but I have never tested any plants before...still a bit of a newbie about these things.



I never tested my plants for viruses but when I have a serious doubt with a plant, or the flowers don't look right, I just throw it out, virus or not. I did just that this morning with a Phrag. Grande. Half of it was growing and half was dying and the plant never seemed to get anywhere. Now it's on the compost pile. :evil:


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## koshki (Apr 8, 2011)

I need to develop that level of detachment...not there yet!

BTW, I think I've read you should not put suspect plants in a compost pile. I don't have one (DH won't allow, but I'm working on him.)


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## Shiva (Apr 8, 2011)

Not if you use the compost to fill holes in the lawn. I really don't care if my lawn has cymbidium mosaic virus. My lawn is so tough, it could probably survive a meteorite impact.


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## Ernie (Apr 8, 2011)

koshki said:


> Odd markings on the leaves that looked like photos of virused plants I've seen.
> 
> I'm sure I should have done something about this sooner, but I have never tested any plants before...still a bit of a newbie about these things.



Did the plant arrive with the odd markings? Did you take pictures or contact them when the plant arrived? 

Or did the marks develop after arriving? How much time elapsed from arrival to marks showing to the positive Agdia test? 

It very well could've arrived with issues. However, plants are living things subject to influences of the surrounding world. Usually, I'd expect a day to a week to be fair for someone to evaluate their satisfaction with a plant. If you didn't report an issue in that time, I'd hate to say it but they can rebut that it got the virus after it got to you. And the flame war begins. It's a he said, she said thing that is tough to impossible to resolve. If they really want your repeat business, they'd refund your money or send you new plants. 

Since they claim all plants are tested before leaving the facility, you would be in good shape if the matter was handled minutes, hours, or a couple days from its arrival. But if you call foul weeks, months, or years after you received it, you're probably going to have to eat the loss. 

What state did they come from??? US or abroad??? I know of no US states that test for viruses, usually just insects some bacteria and fungus, and maybe nematodes. ELISA virus testing is the standard and it would be a major process hangup to hold every plant leaving a state to do ELISA. And if the state did testing, there is probably a paper trail to back it- maybe just a stamp on the box or invoice up to a thorough lab report. 

Their argument of the species from jungle to pot is rubbish. An awarded phal clone carries a high degree of handling with human hands- the best virus vectors in orchids. 

Selling perishables is tough sometimes. Good vendors will do their best to make good on a sale. they seem to have chosen their course to the contrary. 

I dunno, I think at this point your best bet is to trash the plant and never buy from them again and spread the 'buyer beware' word about them.


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## koshki (Apr 8, 2011)

The plants arrived from Florida with the markings. I should have realized then action was warranted. I didn't really think of virus until much later when I read seller feedback that said another customer received virused plants. Then I had to buy the strips and do the tests. As I mentioned, I'm still a newbie about orchids in many ways.

The plants have never been near any other plants, as I kept them in a room with no other orchids. I didn't repot, unpot, or use any utensils with them.

I'm not out a lot of money for the plants. And from his reaction, I'm not really expecting him to refund my purchase.

I guess my point in starting this thread was to discuss the bizarre response I got from the vendor. Not that it was too late, not that I could have contaminated the plant myself. But that it was impossible for the plant to be virused, and besides the tests don't really work anyway.

I think the entire part about everything is tested for everything before a plant is shipped is complete hooey. And there is no way this plant was newly harvested, potted up and sent to me. It is a nursery plant, plain and simple. I may be an orchid newbie, but I am not stupid.

Bottom line...I will take the advice of asking vendors about their "virus policy" before buying. And that will be MY POLICY!!


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## Ernie (Apr 8, 2011)

It wasn't us!  

I agree with all that you say. The seller sounds like a deadbeat. Their statements are silly at best. 

My point was that this late in the game, it's tough for you to claim against them since such time has elapsed since the transaction. 

I can tell you for sure that there is no blanket statewide virus testing for orchids leaving Florida. Even those entering FL are examined sporadically at best and just a cursory inspection for blatantly obvious bugs and diseases. 

That nursery may request inspections, but again, every plant would likely not be inspected individually for viruses.


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## koshki (Apr 8, 2011)

No, Ernie, not you! oke: 

I don't like to be lied to. On this, I will vote with my dollars, and he will never see any of mine again.


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## SlipperFan (Apr 8, 2011)

His response seemed like a lot of baloney to me, also. How could a plant, just pulled off a tree, have an AOS award -- that's what I was trying to say before. And his statement that all plants are tested for viruses is just malarkey. 

If he is a vendor on eBay, be sure to give him a rating there, and a "buyer beware" warning.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Apr 8, 2011)

A lot of vendors get very testy and defensive about virus. Many years ago I sent a sample of a cymbidium for testing to Antec, back when they were a virus testing lab, before they were commercially into paphs. When it came back positive, I wrote to Kensington orchids (the plant source) to notify them. I didn't ask for a refund, as I had the plant for a while...just to notify them. Of course the reply was that it couldn't have been virused, their plants are always tested, etc. My collection at the time had no other sources of plants that could have given it the virus...and any other plants I tested were negative.


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## Shiva (Apr 9, 2011)

Doesn't the responses remind you of those athletes caught using steroids?


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## bullsie (Apr 9, 2011)

When this issue has concluded, please take the time to post the outcome and who the vendor was. It really helps all of us!


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## Ray (Apr 9, 2011)

Last summer I bought a bunch of Oncidiinae intergenerics from a well-known seller in Hawaii. The plants were healthy, strong, and bloomed beautifully.

One that I resold was tested with an Agdia strip and found to be infected with CyMV.

I contacted the vendor, and they were shocked(!), and promised to check and get back to me. They did and confirmed that the plants - a clone yet - was infected. They refunded my money, as I did for the few I had sold.

Lo and behold - they continued selling them. When I inquired about the ethics of that, I was told "Oh, they'll all go to folks here in HI who will tied them to trees where it doesn't matter."

1) "it doesn't matter" is BS
2) They are still selling them outside of HI - I saw a vendor had the same clone at a show (I told them this story - I don't know what they did with them). The Atlanta Botanical Garden had a slew of them, too. I shared the story with them, as well.


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## mormodes (Apr 9, 2011)

The Adgia test strips have always worked well for me. Granted they only test 2 viruses, but they are better than nothing. Don't forget to look at the (excellent) St Augustine Society's web page with its pests and diseases pages. (You'll have to google it) A very excellent resource.


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## Ray (Apr 9, 2011)

No Googling necessary: St. Augustine OS Orchid diseases page


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## e-spice (Apr 9, 2011)

I suspect your test kit is very accurate. Phal. equestris is a plant commonly propagated by cutting off keikis. Many bad growers use cutting shears which have not be sterilized which infects both the plant and keiki. Because of this fact, equestris is very commonly virused. I wouldn't buy an equestris unless it was seed grown (which are generally free of virus) Clones, stem props, divisions, and keikis are very prone to virus. Novelty phalaenopsis clones and stem props from Taiwan are particularly bad for virus.

e-spice


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## koshki (Apr 9, 2011)

Ray, your story is so frustrating! On the one hand, they did the right thing, but on the other....unbelievable!

e-spice, that is good to know. I will be very cautious in the future if I ever try equestris again.

Oh, and by the way, I think it was viewing the St. Augustine website that made me realize I might have trouble with those plants. I had been there looking for answers to my phrag problem!


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## Dokmai Garden (Apr 10, 2011)

If the vendor sells orchids from the wild forest he might be a criminal and should be reported. However, that was probably a lie since Ph. equestris is such an important species for breeding, and has been cloned. By the way, of course wild plants have viruses too.

Eric, Dokmai Garden /the Orchid Ark


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