# How Expensive can Paphs get, and what drives the price up?



## shade131 (Jan 17, 2019)

The most I have seen online currently is around $1,000usd. If there are buyers willing to pay that based on photos, I have to imagine they’re willing to pay much more in person. 

So what is the current ceiling on what a Paph can cost? What are the primary factors? I’m guessing some combination of quality, size and rarity? Are they roth hybrids? Complex?.... A 40 year old clump of choice hangianum? I know prices were much higher in some cases a few decades ago, and in Victorian England it was beyond absurd...

I’d be really curious what growers and long time collectors have to say.

Thanks,

Brandon


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## NYEric (Jan 17, 2019)

Size and quality of plant and blooms. Another factor could be rarity. If someone had roth hybrid like Woluwense or Delrosi with 6 spikes it would be worth quite a bit, or a rare albino plant, and lets not talk about CITES restricted plants.


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## Hien (Jan 17, 2019)

well I don't know how expensive is the highest priced paph,
but I certainly know how high a phal can be , a cool 700 Washingtons

https://www.ebay.com/itm/phalaenops...h=item4b5af9f925:g:334AAOSwqMRa7I1t:rk:2:pf:0

and while you are still in a state of shocking delirious of the rarity of this Sogo Grape "FireBall"  , I will cure what ills you with the same plant but with a better price, 24.99, how does that sound to you :drool:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/phalaenops...h=item4b5b114a82:g:A0oAAOSwcWpbgxg0:rk:1:pf:0


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## Ozpaph (Jan 17, 2019)

Pieces of the best Japanese roths go for in excess of $10k.


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## Ray (Jan 17, 2019)

To-date, the most expensive plant I even saw was a jungle-collected, blue Phalaenopsis violacea. When it was collected, the entire natural population was gone. It is the source of ALL blue genes in phalaenopsis, so the $36,000 price might not have been a bad investment back in the early '80s.


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## troy (Jan 17, 2019)

At the end of the day what drives a price is what somebody is willing to pay


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## Paphluvr (Jan 18, 2019)

troy said:


> At the end of the day what drives a price is what somebody is willing to pay




Totally agree. How many times have you seen a listing on E-Bay for a **RARE** Paphiopedilum sukhakulii (insert any common species name) listed for hundreds of dollars. If someone is willing or gullible enough to buy it at that price than can you really say that that species is now worth xxx$?


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## shade131 (Jan 18, 2019)

Thanks for the responses! 10k for a Roth division. Just....Wow. And paying 36k for a phal. in the 80’s is crazy, but the “this is the only one on earth” part of it certainly explains why. 

I used to work in the art world, so I guess it shouldn’t come as that much of a shock to me, since a “bad” da Vinci just broke the record for the most expensive painting ever at $450 million.....that’s a lot of Roth’s!


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## ehanes7612 (Jan 18, 2019)

check out sam's division list

http://www.orchidinnusa.com/divisions.jsp

roths are highly coveted and can fetch some hefty prices for FCC awarded clones but the proliferation in breeding has brought down the prices for seedlings and even flasks by quite a bit. In 1992 , the first sale of flasks of FCC awarded roths that I am aware of (the infamous Rex x Mont Milais) went for a thousand dollars a flask. I had the actual catalogue that Orchid Zone printed for a long time. In 1995 four inch seedlings of this cross were going for no less than 200 dollars. In the late 90's it was difficult to find large sanderianum primary hybrids and one that you could find were going for 200 NBS. By 1996 you could find flasks of primary sandy hybrids fairly cheap. Sandy hybrids are fairly cheap now, although we seem to be going through a lull in availability. Sanderianum species didn't really hit the market (if you dont include the OZ debacle with their sanderianum cross that turned out to be PEOY) until the early 2000's when Sam started selling flasks for 300 -400 a piece. I know someone in the US who paid 15 grand for Lady Isabel 'Crystelle' FCC division not too long ago. And there's that urban legend story of the guy who flew across the world to buy a 30,000 dollar (maybe more) album brachy division, holding it in his hands the entire trip back. Don't know if that story is true or not. The most I have paid for a single paph was a division of stonei 'Birchwood" for 500 in 1995/6 from Fox Valley. Lost that plant during the divorce (sold my entire collection actually for much less than its value..before EbaY). The most I have paid for a flask was charlesworthii FCC album cross for 400..they all died. Your next question could be 'How much money have you lost to orchids? " For me??? Enough to buy a couple prime Japanese roth divisions


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## shade131 (Jan 19, 2019)

Very interesting, thanks...... I shudder to think how much money I’ve burned on plants that either died or that I just gave up on after years of failing to thrive. I keep everything I can until I run out of space then I start to cull....That’s why I, for the most part, only go after paphs, and plants in general, that aren’t difficult to grow and bloom.


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## valenzino (Jan 21, 2019)

Ther most expensive plants on earth are Cymbidiums mutations in China...i cannot find now the listings I obtains about 10 years ago....but some plants were priced over 1.000.000 rmb's!!!!So over 100.000$!!!!
If i find the listing(and very long listing with many plants over 10.000$ and some over 50.000$)...i'll post it....


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## emydura (Jan 21, 2019)

This division of Paph rothschildianum 'New Horizon' FCC/AOS is on sale for $10,000. 

http://www.zephyrusorchids.com/divisions.html






valenzino said:


> Ther most expensive plants on earth are Cymbidiums mutations in China...i cannot find now the listings I obtains about 10 years ago....but some plants were priced over 1.000.000 rmb's!!!!So over 100.000$!!!!
> If i find the listing(and very long listing with many plants over 10.000$ and some over 50.000$)...i'll post it....



So what did you get?


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## valenzino (Jan 22, 2019)

emydura said:


> So what did you get?



The listing!...and a heart stroke!!!:rollhappy::rollhappy::rollhappy:


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## NYEric (Apr 30, 2019)

I forgot about this thread. I think I had saved Lien's offer for a division of the Phrag. St. Ouen 'White' for $1,500!!!


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## TyroneGenade (Apr 30, 2019)

I think the basic fundamental driving orchid prices is the insanity of orchid growers. Without a wife to keep me under control I would rather buy orchids than food.

We can talk about the economic sense of a $36k phal to drive orchid breeding for decades but without people crazy enough to pay $100+ per plant $36k for a phal is a dumb investment. The insanity of orchid growers is the fundamental driver of orchid price.

Love is madness.

I am now going to go off and seek a clone of Sogo Grape Fireball.

P.S. Ah... jackpot: https://efgorchids.com/products/phal-sogo-grape-fireball


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## Justin (May 1, 2019)

May not be remembering correctly, but I think a couple years ago Tokyo Orchid Nursery was selling a division of roths 'Tarantula' for around $20k.


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## richgarrison (May 2, 2019)

emydura said:


> This division of Paph rothschildianum 'New Horizon' FCC/AOS is on sale for $10,000.
> 
> http://www.zephyrusorchids.com/divisions.html
> 
> ...


i had forgotten all about these guys and i hate that you reminded me....

their besseae divisions are to die for.... 

i guess it's just get a nice Jersey and pretend it's besseae!


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## Ozpaph (May 2, 2019)

The purchase of 'tarantula' would generate twice that in flask sales....................


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## richgarrison (May 2, 2019)

Ozpaph said:


> The purchase of 'tarantula' would generate twice that in flask sales....................


ssssshhhhhhhhh..... someone may be listening.....


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## Ozpaph (May 5, 2019)

TON flasks are already around $Aus500...............................


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## NYEric (May 10, 2019)

Zephyrus had/has nice besseae (OZ breeding, maybe colchicine treated to 4N) they also have a lot of album divisions I like. They used to have micranthum album but I don't see it in the divisions list.


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## Tom Reddick (Jun 14, 2019)

NYEric said:


> Size and quality of plant and blooms. Another factor could be rarity. If someone had roth hybrid like Woluwense or Delrosi with 6 spikes it would be worth quite a bit, or a rare albino plant, and lets not talk about CITES restricted plants.



I would also add in the time factor- and that in many cases is the most important factor of all.

You see it less now that orchids have become so mainstream and really decimated the market for breeding on a smaller scale- thus greatly reducing the number of participants and opportunity to buy rare divisions or original plants from a wider number of sources- but historically I have found that the real dollar value in super-high end divisions and original plants (and by that I mean $5,000+) is the value of being first, or at least ahead of the curve.

We still have not seen the full extent of what rothschildianum can yield. But the closer we get, and the smaller the increments of improvement, the more vital it becomes to make your sibling crosses with the most recent best plants- with the difference between those and the best plants of 10 years ago progressively shrinking making every last mm of dimension or nuance of color all the more important in striving to do better.

And given both the financial potential of flask sales and the prestige of having the current best plant on the block, it makes perfect sense that top roth divisions are traded well into the five figure range. I know a lot of breeders sell with each other because in the long run everyone needs more diversification in their own breeding lines- but for those outside that circle the greater problem than affording such divisions is finding them available in the first place when they really and truly are the current best of the best.

But once that time advantage is lost, the value goes down substantially. It certainly varies by plant and collector, but I think $5,000 is about the highest price out there for something that is a really great and historic plant but which is no longer truly cutting edge.

And then eventually, when a breeding line is tapped out- people move on and many formerly valuable plants become worthless. In the 90s, Carmela and other top Phal breeders routinely sold high end original and stem prop stud plants of pinks, whites and candy stripes for $500 to the low thousands. When Phal. Hilo Lip was all the rage- but a pain in the ass as a sib cross for all the inbreeding- the guy who flowered out a huge pink Ida Fukumura with a white lip was getting offered $10K per stem prop. You cannot even find such plants these days- the breeding lines were deemed to have been maxed out in terms of potential plus the grocery store Phals came along.

Point being- the value in the $5K+ plants is being first, or as close to first as possible, to have and breed with a plant that can double or triple the value of the flasks and seedlings sold. This premium comes either from having the best of a current species/hybrid or getting in early on a newly discovered species.

But over time that value erodes- and quickly in some cases- and so for the hobby collector it makes no sense to chase after such plants.

That said- the most expensive plants I have ever known of go in the $40-75K range. And those are original plants sold by certain high end nurseries direct to exhibitors at major international shows who want to come home with a big fat trophy. It is not unheard of for award-potential plants to go unshown to the public in anticipation of such sales.

For any of you hobby sellers- this can work in your favor on a smaller scale at local shows BTW. When I used to do orchid shows in high school and college, I would always call Carter and Holmes or one of the other big Catt houses a few weeks in advance and buy 1 or 2 really huge mericlone plants with 4-5 budded sheaths so that the plants would be in full flower for the show. Then I would set them out first on my sales table as I set up for the day, and every time I would sell them to someone needing something really fancy to add to their exhibit. The profit there was easily equal to selling 20-30 high end seedlings.


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## Tony (Jun 15, 2019)

[QUOTE="Tom Reddick] When Phal. Hilo Lip was all the rage- but a pain in the ass as a sib cross for all the inbreeding- the guy who flowered out a huge pink Ida Fukumura with a white lip was getting offered $10K per stem prop. You cannot even find such plants these days- [/QUOTE]

Funny you should bring up Hilo Lip, I've been searching for some of the classic clones to replace plants I lost in my freeze and it really does seem like they have disappeared. 'Catnip' in particular is a sentimental plant for me, I remember being so proud when I managed to save up a whole $50 as a kid in the mid 90s and sent off for one I think from the Stewart catalog. I've had no luck at all trying to get one from anyone I've found who once grew it.

On a happier note I was able to replace Brassia Datacosa 'Coos Bay' with divisions of the mother plant from the original breeder, the mericlone she sold me back in 1993 was the start of my obsession.


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## Tom Reddick (Jun 16, 2019)

Tony said:


> Funny you should bring up Hilo Lip, I've been searching for some of the classic clones to replace plants I lost in my freeze and it really does seem like they have disappeared. 'Catnip' in particular is a sentimental plant for me, I remember being so proud when I managed to save up a whole $50 as a kid in the mid 90s and sent off for one I think from the Stewart catalog. I've had no luck at all trying to get one from anyone I've found who once grew it.
> 
> On a happier note I was able to replace Brassia Datacosa 'Coos Bay' with divisions of the mother plant from the original breeder, the mericlone she sold me back in 1993 was the start of my obsession.



I have also been doing a lot of digging on the older Phals because that is the direction I am headed as I plan out expanding the orchid collection a bit to get into breeding and make a retirement career out of orchids. I had initially planned it with Paphs, but the market trends of the past decade point to that being a very bad idea- plus the Phals were my first love.

Anyhow- I am finding it near impossible to track down older plants. Hilo Lip I would expect to be particularly difficult because the plants themselves were not all that easy to grow long term, and the sib crosses did not come out well at all. That pretty much relegated Hilo Lip to short term fad status. A shame because I still think it is a striking plant. Years ago Sheldon sold me a really amazing first bloom Hilo Lip that was on the level of 'Catnip' but more of a bright pink color than the deeper purple of Catnip. The best plant I had when it was in flower- but it proved very fussy and eventually died without giving a terminal spike and keikeis.


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## Tony (Jun 16, 2019)

From what I remember Hilo Lip also suffered badly from the Benlate incident, being so prone to rot it was one that was frequently treated prophylactically.


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## Tom Reddick (Jun 18, 2019)

I am not sure about Hilo Lip specifically, but yes as a whole Benlate wiped out several key breeders and many generations of breeding stock. Terrible, terrible mess. Change was already in the air since at that time Hawaiian and Far Eastern growers were actively growing the orchid pot plant market- though more for orchid specialists and shows than for pure mass production. And I think that is what kept many breeders from starting over who might have otherwise tried to come back.


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## DrLeslieEe (Oct 11, 2019)

The most expensive orchid that was sold in Japan (possibly the world) was a Neofinetia for USD $300,000 with a USD $7000 antique pot! It is not unusual to see plants around the $20K mark up to $100K for a small 3 growth division for sale even today. The prices of these variegated plants are based on rarity, demand and plant characteristics (like root tip colors, leaf variegation and flower types). Neofinetia collectors are very selective and demand perfection in their plants.


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## BrucherT (Oct 11, 2019)

I’m studying Neos... the frustration is that they really require the special pots to achieve full splendiferous vista and those are either impossible to come by here or prohibitively costly. I do see where the good ones are worth every penny.


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## littlefrog (Oct 15, 2019)

I price plants based on how much I want to keep them. There are a few I'd sell for $10,000 though. Honestly anything over $200 for a plant feels like stealing to me. I think I priced a plant at $150 once. Got it. But it didn't feel right.


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Oct 15, 2019)

I hear what you are saying littlefrog, but I assume you are not talking about division of high quality flowers that a breeder is using for his or her breeding. I would assume that those division have to be worth much more.


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## littlefrog (Oct 17, 2019)

Oh, I have FCCs and high AMs of my own that are valuable stud plants (I use them). A lot of AMs... I just couldn't price them that high. Now if somebody came and offered me 10,000 for my FCC wardii I would certainly take it. I'd also take 5000 for the 88 point AMs...  But I'm not going to advertise at that price.


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## likespaphs (Oct 17, 2019)

someone told me a story about seeing a groovy variegated Paph at a nursery
he really wanted it and offered the guy $1000 for it
the guy had to go into the back to ask the owner
when he came back, he said that the owner said $1000 was fine. he (the owner) only thought it was worth $500, but he could definitely have it for $1000
not sure if he paid the $1000 or $500


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## NYEric (Oct 17, 2019)

Lesson: Never make the first offer!


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