# Large Phals lots of spikes!



## gonewild (May 31, 2016)

Here are a few of our Phalaenopsis plants that I've been experimenting with.
Most have about 30" LS.
I'm pretty happy with the results so far.


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## Migrant13 (May 31, 2016)

Wow those are some seriously well grown mutants! So are you going to provide more details on the "experiment"?


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## Tom-DE (May 31, 2016)

That is impressive! What kind of fertilizer are you feeding them with? Did you do anything differently this time?


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## Denver (May 31, 2016)

Migrant13 said:


> Wow those are some seriously well grown mutants! So are you going to provide more details on the "experiment"?



He has to make sure the flowers don't come out glowing in the dark before he shares his "experiment."


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## PaphLover (May 31, 2016)

Wow! Waiting with bated breath for the show. That is truly incredible!


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## abax (May 31, 2016)

Lance, you've been giving them steroids, haven't you???
Such illegality...doping up Phals...tsk tsk. The plants look
magnificent and it'll be a great show when they bloom.
They do bloom, don't they????? ;>)


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## NYEric (Jun 1, 2016)

Nice. What crosses are they?


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## Lanmark (Jun 1, 2016)

Gasp! :drool:


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## Justin (Jun 1, 2016)

Nice...what is your secret?


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## Wendy (Jun 1, 2016)

Wow! Incredible. I'm waiting to hear the secret you're using and can't wait to see the flower display on these. :clap:


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## Brabantia (Jun 1, 2016)

I am impatient to know how one could arrive at such a result and especially to see flowerings which will result from your experiment.


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## Carkin (Jun 1, 2016)

Woweeeee!!! That's incredible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## monocotman (Jun 1, 2016)

Wow! Cannot wait for the show,
David


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## valenzino (Jun 1, 2016)

nice experiment!how much time have been growing without stimulate flowering?


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## gonewild (Jun 1, 2016)

Sorry all for not replying faster, having a busy day. i'll respond asap. in the meantime have fun guessing!!! :rollhappy:


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## Sharky (Jun 1, 2016)

My guess is keeping temps above 82 F to keeping them vegetative (ie suppressing spike initiation), having them grow to monstrous proportions before chilling them (below 77 F in day and below 70 at night) and raising light levels at the same time.
But what's the special sauce?

Congrats, these are stunning specimen plants!


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## Linus_Cello (Jun 1, 2016)

Sharky said:


> My guess is keeping temps above 82 F to keeping them vegetative (ie suppressing spike initiation), having them grow to monstrous proportions before chilling them (below 77 F in day and below 70 at night) and raising light levels at the same time.
> But what's the special sauce?
> 
> Congrats, these are stunning specimen plants!



I think they do this for the giant phals in taiwan. I think another thing they do is up the CO2.


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## Marco (Jun 1, 2016)

Wow...Well done. Those are a lot of spikes.


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## paphioboy (Jun 2, 2016)

Very interesting... My guess is the same as sharky's... But usually in phals, spikes from the lower leaf axils tend to be larger than phals from higher up nodes, but I see the opposite happening in your plants. Hormonal treatment? Auxin or cytokinins maybe?


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## Justin (Jun 2, 2016)

oke: It has got to be low k and orchiata


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## Lanmark (Jun 2, 2016)

I think Donald Trump commanded them to grow, so they did -- because he said so :rollhappy:


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## NYEric (Jun 2, 2016)

paphioboy said:


> Very interesting... My guess is the same as sharky's... B



Not in the heat of Peru, I don't think so.


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## MaryPientka (Jun 2, 2016)

Outstanding!


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## Paphman910 (Jun 2, 2016)

nice, did you subject them to low temperature during the night? I have a Phal that just grows and grows without ever flowering.


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## gonewild (Jun 3, 2016)

Migrant13 said:


> Wow those are some seriously well grown mutants! So are you going to provide more details on the "experiment"?



I'll answer any questions you have.


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## gonewild (Jun 3, 2016)

Tom-DE said:


> That is impressive! What kind of fertilizer are you feeding them with? Did you do anything differently this time?



I make my own fertilizer from bulk chemicals. The formula changes frequently.
I do things differently every time! But yes what you are seeing in the pictures is the results of some very different specific manipulations.


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## gonewild (Jun 3, 2016)

Denver said:


> He has to make sure the flowers don't come out glowing in the dark before he shares his "experiment."



I kind of hope the do glow in the dark....as long as they are not blue!


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## gonewild (Jun 3, 2016)

abax said:


> Lance, you've been giving them steroids, haven't you???
> Such illegality...doping up Phals...tsk tsk.



Not exactly!



> The plants look magnificent and it'll be a great show when they bloom.
> They do bloom, don't they????? ;>)



I hope they bloom! I'm not quite sure if there is going to be enough airspace though.


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## gonewild (Jun 3, 2016)

NYEric said:


> Nice. What crosses are they?



They a muts. All seedlings made here in Peru from noid white and pink standard phals. They are all actually reasonably good quality flowers, well actually some of these plants have never bloomed before so we'll see if they are good.


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## gonewild (Jun 3, 2016)

Justin said:


> Nice...what is your secret?



Did you say something?


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## gonewild (Jun 3, 2016)

Brabantia said:


> I am impatient to know how one could arrive at such a result and especially to see flowerings which will result from your experiment.



The result is from long term study of plant growth and trying different ideas and concepts in search for better results. I too am anxious to see how the plants handle the volume of potential flowers.


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## gonewild (Jun 3, 2016)

valenzino said:


> nice experiment!how much time have been growing without stimulate flowering?



Some of the plants have flowered as recently as 6 months ago and some have never flowered. The plants are grown at temperatures that inhibit flowering and promote rapid growth. The plants are only about 2 years from 3 leaf 8-12" LS size.


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## Justin (Jun 3, 2016)

I was just kidding. Seriously though, very impressive growing.


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## gonewild (Jun 3, 2016)

Sharky said:


> My guess is keeping temps above 82 F to keeping them vegetative (ie suppressing spike initiation), having them grow to monstrous proportions before chilling them (below 77 F in day and below 70 at night) and raising light levels at the same time.
> But what's the special sauce?
> 
> Congrats, these are stunning specimen plants!



You have the basic concept of temperatures and spike induction. Our grow temperatures are very warm.
Day temperatures often are above 36c (97F) in our open air grow area.
We have a evap cooled house that stays at and below 32c (90F).
Nights cool off to 24-27c (75-80F).

To induce spikes we move into an air conditioned space at specific temps well below 77F. For this experiment I used specific night/day temperature changes between 19c and 75c (66-75F).

The secret sauce is only part secret at this point. 
Growth is one part. Blooming is a separate part.
The main thing is to provide the correct nutrients in the correct amounts at the correct time to grow the plant strong enough. I've made no secret about how I think plants need to be fertilized. :wink:


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## gonewild (Jun 3, 2016)

Linus_Cello said:


> I think they do this for the giant phals in taiwan. I think another thing they do is up the CO2.



The giant white phals in Taiwan genetically produce a lot of flowers. I'm trying to import this variety to see what happens here. The genetics of my plants max out at about 15 flowers on a spike and the V3 from taiwan has twice that many.

I have not increased CO2 yet. I think that will give even a better growth result.
It's on my to do list.


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## gonewild (Jun 3, 2016)

paphioboy said:


> Very interesting... My guess is the same as sharky's... But usually in phals, spikes from the lower leaf axils tend to be larger than phals from higher up nodes, but I see the opposite happening in your plants. Hormonal treatment? Auxin or cytokinins maybe?



A little bit.


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## gonewild (Jun 3, 2016)

Justin said:


> oke: It has got to be low k and orchiata



Yes it does.
Low K
No orchiata.


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## gonewild (Jun 3, 2016)

Lanmark said:


> I think Donald Trump commanded them to grow, so they did -- because he said so :rollhappy:



Wrong Country.


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## gonewild (Jun 3, 2016)

NYEric said:


> Not in the heat of Peru, I don't think so.



We were actually told that it was too hot here to grow Phals. 
Needless to say we have no heating bill!
(Cooling costs are another story)


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## gonewild (Jun 3, 2016)

Paphman910 said:


> nice, did you subject them to low temperature during the night? I have a Phal that just grows and grows without ever flowering.



Yes most Phal varieties need a cool period to produce spikes.
The assumed magic number is above 28c the plant remains vegetative and will not bloom. So if you can drop the day temperature below 28c and then get the night below 24c you will probably induce spikes to form. It takes about a month at these temperatures. When I drop the night temp to19c I see spikes in about 18 days. The big plants in the pictures will remain in the cold for 2 months.


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## gonewild (Jun 3, 2016)

Justin said:


> I was just kidding. Seriously though, very impressive growing.



Me too! oke:

Thanks


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## Sharky (Jun 3, 2016)

Hi Lance
Again, BRAVO, magnificent culture
I guess I'll be searching for your fert routine...... (Unless you want to save me the trouble lol)
I'm an indoor/under lights grower and have purchased an a/c unit recently to provide this level of temp control for my Phals. The future is bright!
Mark


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## gonewild (Jun 4, 2016)

Sharky said:


> Hi Lance
> Again, BRAVO, magnificent culture
> I guess I'll be searching for your fert routine...... (Unless you want to save me the trouble lol)
> I'm an indoor/under lights grower and have purchased an a/c unit recently to provide this level of temp control for my Phals. The future is bright!
> Mark



I'll help you with fertilizer. But you should not just copy what I do. It needs to be adjusted to your environment. However the basics are the same.

I have not found the Phals to be happy with a low nutrient supply.
Lowering the K ratio has reduced disease problems.
I never use UREA.
I provide a lot of calcium 
I provide a lot of magnesium
I provide a lot of iron.
Nutrients are applied every watering.

my fertilizer is made from:
calcium nitrate
potassium nitrate
ammonium nitrate
magnesium sulfate
diammonium phosphate
phosphoric acid
a premix of micros

I do not use every chemical in every batch of fertilizer. Nutrients get tweaked based on the plant growth is see. Calcium nitrate is always the main ingredient.

I also use occassionally
humic acid
citric acid (recently)
a new Peruvian seaweed extract.

base water supply is rainwater.

If you want to discuss the fertilizer in more detail start a new thread and ask me any question you have.


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## suzyquec (Jun 4, 2016)

Impressive, can't wait for the blooming photos.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jun 4, 2016)

Late to the party! Congrats on fun/experiment. 
I am also aware of this technic Sharky already mentioned. 
They do it on Taiwan for showing impressive ones. 

Peeing on it every might boost the number of spikes. 
Just kidding!


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## Gilda (Jun 4, 2016)

OMG !! That is incredible and so interesting !:clap::clap::clap:


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## Sharky (Jun 4, 2016)

Thanks Lance
Will try to formulate some intelligent questions

Also thanks for listing the temps you used. Will try to emulate these going forward. 

Also, if you are singing or whistling while you work please let us know your favorite songs, will add those to the regimen as well!
Mark


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## Clark (Jun 5, 2016)

I always loved Bruce Banner.


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## Ray (Jun 5, 2016)

Sharky said:


> Thanks Lance
> 
> Will try to formulate some intelligent questions




Be very careful about doing that. Don't forget that it is Lance that will decide on their worthiness.


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## gonewild (Jun 5, 2016)

Ray said:


> Be very careful about doing that. Don't forget that it is Lance that will decide on their worthiness.



 Should I take that as an insult Ray?


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## Happypaphy7 (Jun 5, 2016)

He didn't say why, so no clue what he meant. 
I'm just looking forward to some pictures of final result. 
It would be magnificent!


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## paphioboy (Jun 6, 2016)

gonewild said:


> Yes most Phal varieties need a cool period to produce spikes.
> *The assumed magic number is above 28c the plant remains vegetative and will not bloom.* So if you can drop the day temperature below 28c and then get the night below 24c you will probably induce spikes to form. It takes about a month at these temperatures. When I drop the night temp to19c I see spikes in about 18 days. The big plants in the pictures will remain in the cold for 2 months.




IMHO that is not always true. Most phal hybrids (most of the large flowered whites, white with coloured lip, pink, yellows and novelties) grown outdoors here can rebloom in Malaysian lowlands without cooling, which has average daily temperature of 27-35 degrees C, very little day-night fluctuation. During the monsoon, temperature very rarely drops below 25 degrees C, and even so only for very short periods (several days). Only the dark pinks, reds and schilleriana hybrids require extended cooling to initiate spikes here. Having said that, of course forcing with low temperature will promote spike formation faster and more consistently, which is why commercial nurseries often have a cool room to force phals into flower.


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## abax (Jun 6, 2016)

I took Ray's comment as a compliment on Lance's intelligence. I don't think he'd bother with a stupid question. After all, why should he?


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## gonewild (Jun 6, 2016)

paphioboy said:


> IMHO that is not always true. Most phal hybrids (most of the large flowered whites, white with coloured lip, pink, yellows and novelties) grown outdoors here can rebloom in Malaysian lowlands without cooling, which has average daily temperature of 27-35 degrees C, very little day-night fluctuation. During the monsoon, temperature very rarely drops below 25 degrees C, and even so only for very short periods (several days). Only the dark pinks, reds and schilleriana hybrids require extended cooling to initiate spikes here. Having said that, of course forcing with low temperature will promote spike formation faster and more consistently, which is why commercial nurseries often have a cool room to force phals into flower.



That's interesting. Can you expand on this a little. When you say they "can rebloom" do you mean they bloom outside on their on every year?

Here during our cool season less than 20% of the plants set spikes. During the warm season occasionally a few plants set spikes but not many. 

From what I gather from research papers 28c temperature is the point that makes a difference. My experience here is if temperatures never fall bellow 28c day or night the plant grows leaves and does not flower. If day temperature is above 28c and night temperature is 24c a lot of plants will set spikes. But drop the day temperature down to 24c and the night to 19c and usually 100% set spikes.


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## consettbay2003 (Jun 6, 2016)

I have read that it is the lower day temperature ( 17 to 24 C ) that initiates the spiking.


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## Tom-DE (Jun 6, 2016)

Obviously your "experiment" is working well for your Phals. Do you grow anything else with the same "experiment"? How are those(from other genera) doing if you do grow other orchids?


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## gonewild (Jun 6, 2016)

consettbay2003 said:


> I have read that it is the lower day temperature ( 17 to 24 C ) that initiates the spiking.



Maybe, I'm not sure if it matters whether day or night is lower. It may just be the total hours of cold. I choose to run the nights cold and the days warmer because that is the most economical combination for the electric energy consumption.

Interesting point is that most of the published research of the blooming of phals refers to using high temperatures above 28c to inhibit spiking.


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## gonewild (Jun 6, 2016)

Tom-DE said:


> Obviously your "experiment" is working well for your Phals. Do you grow anything else with the same "experiment"? How are those(from other genera) doing if you do grow other orchids?



No only phals now. I don't have much else to work with. It's very difficult to get any quantity of quality orchids in Peru. The import laws are very difficult. I have now my import permits and quarantine areas but the costs of import are prohibitive. I was able recently to purchase a small quantity of Paphs and Vandas from one of the biggest growers in the country. I hoped to do some similar experiments but the plants arrived in very poor health, so it will be a while before I can work with other genera.


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## paphioboy (Jun 6, 2016)

gonewild said:


> That's interesting. Can you expand on this a little. When you say they "can rebloom" do you mean they bloom outside on their on every year?
> 
> Here during our cool season less than 20% of the plants set spikes. During the warm season occasionally a few plants set spikes but not many.
> 
> From what I gather from research papers 28c temperature is the point that makes a difference. My experience here is if temperatures never fall bellow 28c day or night the plant grows leaves and does not flower. If day temperature is above 28c and night temperature is 24c a lot of plants will set spikes. But drop the day temperature down to 24c and the night to 19c and usually 100% set spikes.



Yes, most growers here grow their plants outdoors exposed/semi-exposed to the elements. The large flowered euphalaenopsis types are the ones that likely require cooling to *reliably* initiate spikes (especially dark pinks and reds), but the star-shaped stauroglottis section (e.g. violacea, amboinensis etc) don't. They also have different seasons (novelty hybrids initiate spikes around April which is hot, large flowered ones towards the rainy season in October/November), hybrids integrated across these sections (yellow, art shade, stripes, dots) do not require cooling to flower.


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