# Paph. venustum album x Paph. henryanum album



## DrLeslieEe (Dec 20, 2019)

I bought this plant with the hopes of blooming out an album primary of a henryanum shape (esp a rounded dorsal) with the markings of venustum, with a possible white lip. However it turned out to look like a pure venustum album. The breeder Zephyrus said that sometimes a mother plant will self itself even with other pollen on it. That’s educational for me. Or perhaps the venustum genes are so strong it wiped off the henryanum genes completely. Any thoughts my fellow paphiophiles?


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## Ozpaph (Dec 20, 2019)

all venustum, to me


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## Ray (Dec 20, 2019)

My thought as well.


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## P.K.Hansen (Dec 20, 2019)

Any henry is very well hidden.


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## gego (Dec 20, 2019)

Can't see henry.


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## NYEric (Dec 20, 2019)

venustum
$2 Ca.


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## DrLeslieEe (Dec 20, 2019)

Henry got pushed off the wagon!


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## Guldal (Dec 21, 2019)

I wouldn't have guessed, it has a hybric nature, if you hadn't said so....or has it? 



DrLeslieEe said:


> The breeder Zephyrus said that sometimes a mother plant will self itself even with other pollen on it. That’s educational for me. Or perhaps the venustum genes are so strong it wiped off the henryanum genes completely?



Or might the simplest explanation be the one coming closest to the truth: the estimable Zephyrus messed up the name tag/labels for the seedlings? Or the people in the lab did?


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## BrucherT (Dec 21, 2019)

I’m seeing a bit of henryanum in the shape and texture of the labellum...when my regular venustem opens up (any minute now!), I’ll be checking its staminode to see how yours compares. There’s also something that seems miniaturized you me about the foliage. It’s very venustem, sure...but...there’s something extra going on.


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## BrucherT (Dec 21, 2019)

NYEric said:


> venustum
> $2 Ca.


Lol Eric what’re you charging for?


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## Phred (Dec 22, 2019)

Paphiopedilum venustum, as well as a few other species, tend have very strong genes for it’s phenotype. First generation offspring tend to look a lot like the venustum parent. For that reason I make very few crosses with venustum. Paphiopedilum spicerianum works the same way... very strong genes for its phenotype. Maybe this can be concluded in the future when more of this cross blooms And we get some pictures.
As for self pollinating... I’ve heard of Paphiopedilum parishii self pollinating but have not heard of any other Paphiopedilum species doing this. Paphiopedilum parishii is structurally different from other Paphiopedilum in that there is less separation between the male and female parts of the flower. As I understand it, the pollen can turn to liquid in the beginning of flower development due to the warm temperatures during its bloom season. As the flower opens and tilts up the pollen, because of its close proximity can run directly down onto the stigma causing self pollination. That said, if it was possible for other species, the easiest way to avoid that would be to remove the pollen as soon as the flower opens enough and breed that flower when it’s convenient.


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## tnyr5 (Dec 22, 2019)

One can never be absolutely certain, but I am 99% confident this is pure venustum.


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## Ozpaph (Dec 22, 2019)

if you said its a pure venustum, nobody would argue IMHO


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## DrLeslieEe (Dec 26, 2019)

After reviewing the breeding patterns and offsprings of venustum, and reading everyone's input on here, there seems to be two sides that are valid.

First, it is true there is no phenotypic evidence of the henryanum in this flower whatsoever. What you see is what you get. A flower that looks like the pure venustum album. 

Second, as Phred has put it well, that venustum genes are so strong, it can wipe out other strong genes... even those of sukhakulii and mastersianum! This can be seen in Paph. Jacob's Dream, which is 62.38% venustum, 24.75% sukhakulii and 12.87% mastersianum. JD looks like a venustum as well (see OrchidWiz). Also some cultivars of Magical Venus, Deceptively Venus and Tuffet can look like venustums to the untrained and even trained eyes (all these hybrids are F1 offsprings of venustums).

In light of this information, it is possible that this flower is of hybrid origin, even if henryanum is not evident. The only way to tell is to self it and see what the offsprings look like. And that I have no time for LOL. 

In the meantime I will wait for further clarification from Zepyrus who promised to look into it. The answer will come from them one way or another.


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## BrucherT (Dec 26, 2019)

DrLeslieEe said:


> After reviewing the breeding patterns and offsprings of venustum, and reading everyone's input on here, there seems to be two sides that are valid.
> 
> First, it is true there is no phenotypic evidence of the henryanum in this flower whatsoever. What you see is what you get. A flower that looks like the pure venustum album.
> 
> ...


Or to do a DNA sequence.


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## DrLeslieEe (Dec 26, 2019)

I'm afraid I have no DNA sequencer at home LOL
We wait when others flower this cross to re-examine this issue.


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## NYEric (Dec 27, 2019)

That wasn't a charge, it was an offer!


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## Guldal (Dec 30, 2019)

DrLeslieEe said:


> In the meantime I will wait for further clarification from Zepyrus who promised to look into it. The answer will come from them one way or another.



Keep us posted!


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## JRO (Feb 19, 2021)

My favorite P. venustum primary hybrid is P. Shanti Gardens(venustum x wolterianum). It has a strong venustum influence, but wolterianum manages to come through in a good way. I use to drool over a clone that Hausermann’s had in their collection many years ago. I put my name on the list for a division, but alas no luck. I really wish someone would remake this cross. It had a multitude of tall pink and green flowers over a beautiful compact clump of leaves.


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## TyroneGenade (Feb 19, 2021)

DrLeslieEe said:


> I'm afraid I have no DNA sequencer at home LOL
> We wait when others flower this cross to re-examine this issue.


Self it... If there is another species in the mix it will show up in the F2 even if venestum is dominant. 

I pollinated a paph yesterday with donated pollen. My first action was to remove the pollen from the flower so there was no chance of a selfing occurring. If you know selfing can happen, why run the risk of leaving the pollen on the flower?


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## masaccio (Feb 19, 2021)

Are albums themselves recessive in a given species? If so, it would seem reasonable to expect the somewhat stronger genes of venustum (if such is the case) to be even more assertive in crosses with other albums (??)


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## Duck Slipper (Feb 20, 2021)

Probably is a hybrid venustum x henryanum! I just don’t see why going to the trouble of crossing an album henryanum? This crossing would of happened at least a couple years ago. Album henryanum’s aren’t real common now, not to mention then.


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