# KnudsonC



## Trithor (Oct 25, 2014)

Has anyone had any success using KnudsonC as a germination medium for paph seed? I have had good success with M&S (admittedly modified quite a bit), but am still looking for an improvement. I am keen to try KnudsonC and was hoping someone has had some experience with it.


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## fibre (Oct 25, 2014)

An orchid enthusiast does some sowing of Paphs for me. It is all with Knudson C. As far as I can see the rate of germination is relatively low. But what I really don't like is that the resulting seedlings are fracturable like thin glass and the roots are short. I have quite some trouble to get those seedlings growing. I'm not sure if this is the result of the media or any other mistake in his flasking process. 
I asked Alan L Winthrop from TISSUE QUICK PLANT LABORATORIES about Knudson C and he told me that Knudson C is far far too slow and produces poor results.


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## TyroneGenade (Oct 25, 2014)

My best results have been with P668 (Sigma) and the Western Medias with coconut water. I tried Knudson C with various things and the growth was never as vigorous as with the other mediums.


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## Trithor (Oct 26, 2014)

My intention is to try it as a germination medium only. I am very happy with my maintenance/growing medium. I currently germinate on two different variations of M&S, but effectively they both are very similar. P6668 is also a variation of M&S. I want to sow onto 3 different media, in the hope that that those that prove difficult on M&S will germinate better on the M&S.
What concentration of Knudson should I use? Full strength? 
As an aside, I have germinated on a medium made of coconut water and sugar only. It worked quite well, but you have to replate quite early as the plants will not develop much from the protocorm stage.


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## fibre (Oct 26, 2014)

I was told that Perner sells a medium that works very well for Paphs. Maybe better try this instead of the old style Knudson C?
[email protected]


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## TyroneGenade (Oct 26, 2014)

Vacin & Went used to be the go-to for Paphs. It would be a good place to start.

Again, the Western Media by Western Orchids is excellent stuff.

Half strength P6668 (you have to make up the sugar to full strength) worked well for me (better than Knudson C).

In any event, you want to replate ASAP after germination so the plants are not crowded. My only issue with P6668 with banana powder was that I got rampant protocorm multiplication that caused flasks to quickly get crowded. No such problem with the Western Media.


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## Trithor (Oct 26, 2014)

My understanding is that P6668 is half strength M&S. I have found very similar germination with M&S from 1/2 all the way down to 1/8 strength, in fact the only difference being in growth from there. I have had germination on plain sugar solution, and as already indicated also on a sugar and coconut medium. It is the weeks to months after germination that is the problem. Not all seed germinate at the same time, so the medium needs to sustain the already germinated protocorms while the rest germinate. It does not help if the two extremes occure, namely first germinated turn into 'palm trees' while the rest are at protocorm stage, or the first to germinate die as the last start to germinate. The ideal is to have a group of seedlings ready to replate that are not tooooooo different from each other. To get germination is reasonably easy, it is the month or two after till replate that is the problem.


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## eteson (Oct 26, 2014)

For paphs I've used with good results p668 at 1/2 and western medium (best results with the second one).For phrags is much better p668 at 1/2. I've Never used KnudsonC for germinating. If you try it please keep us updated.


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## TyroneGenade (Oct 26, 2014)

Gary, you are being too much of a perfectionist. 

Get the Western Media. Sow the seed. Replate germinated protocorms regularly or as they appear. A good germination is scores of protocorms... An excellent germination is hundreds of protocorms. What are you going to do with hundreds of seedlings (especially in SA where enthusiasm for Paphs must be at an all-time low)?

If I got excellent germination I would replate the largest protocorms/seedlings and that was that. Talk with Faan. I would love to know how many seedlings came out of his flasks of Mystic Fair I made for him. The mother flasks were still "stampvol" (English transliteration: bumping full).

This isn't the 1940s any more where germination was hit-or-miss and every last seedling counted because there were so few. We only want the best, and they tend to be the best growers.


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## eteson (Oct 26, 2014)

TyroneGenade said:


> We only want the best, and they tend to be the best growers.



I do not agree with this part at all. Actually some very good quality plants in terms of shape and color are the slower growers. This is the reason why I try to avoid doing the first replate too early and also I try to avoid selection by size during the subsequent replates.

I do remember an "old" theory of Xavier called "the unwanted selection" that was eye opening to me.


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## TyroneGenade (Oct 26, 2014)

Okay, Eliseo, I accept your correction. But I would still replate sooner to prevent the smaller, later germinating seedlings from getting crowded out.


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## Trithor (Oct 27, 2014)

Ok, I guess I will carry on as before. 
I do open up the mother flask when the germinated seedlings are large enough to replate. At that stage I also remove a couple of flasks of protocorms, then generally I add 1ml of water and reseal the flask again. I label those flasks that they were opened on 'date' and x flasks removed. I have a number of these flasks on the racks now which have a 'carpet' of seedlings growing in them. I was hoping to avoid this scenario and get a more uniform rate of germination. However I guess on the flip side I should just be grateful that I am getting germination.

Tyrone, I am well past the stage of only enough for in South Africa. I am going to have to sell flasks to other countries as well, it is that or I had better start building much larger greenhouses. I am busy with my f3 esquirolei (first time I have handled the whole process) and where previously I only got arround 40 seedlings back from the lab and told that germination was poor, this generation I have 6 mother flasks, all with germination (erratic) and after replating a single flask I have over 120 seedlings, so I estimate around a thousand seedlings this time. I think that might be a bit more than South Africa needs, but at least I should be able to do a proper selection for my f4.


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## TyroneGenade (Oct 27, 2014)

There should be as big a market for Paph pot plants as Phals. Its just a hassle growing the Paphs up.


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## Trithor (Oct 27, 2014)

Not so much the hassle as much as the time/cost to profit ratio. I get as much for a potted chilli bush which takes about 120 days as I do for a quick 'Maudiae' which takes 4 years! I guess it is the same with giraffe, I get far more value per hectare running wildebeest than giraffe, but a lot in life is about passion, not profit ( I guess it is also fortunate to be able to afford passion!)


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## fibre (Oct 27, 2014)

Trithor said:


> ..., but a lot in life is about passion, not profit ( I guess it is also fortunate to be able to afford passion!)



Absolutely!


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## labskaus (Oct 28, 2014)

I thought the Robert Ernst medium was best suited for Paph germination, but I lack personal experience with Paph sowing.


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## Trithor (Oct 28, 2014)

Carsten, thank you, I will look into it.


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