# Anyone ever Revived a Rootless Paph?



## Happypaphy7 (Jul 15, 2016)

This is a parvi hybrid that I got a couple of months ago.
It was perfectly healthy with many thick roots, but...The plant was growing this smaller new growth way down below the base of the plant.
I wasn't sure if I had to bury that and encourage the "stem" to develop roots or leave as is. I added a little bit of moss loosely hoping I would be able to save the new growth and encourage the stem to send out roots.

Well, the plant did attempt to make some new roots off the stem, but they would stop at very short length. 

Then about month ago, I noticed the entire top growth was going very limp.
The roots were perfectly fine and the little new growth was also in great condition. It was rather confusing as to what was going on.

The situation got worse and worse slowly, and just last week, it was obvious that the plant was somehow terminating the main growth and focusing on the smaller new shoot as that part was firm and was also growing a new leaf.
 
Just today, I was running my finger across the limp top growth and it just fell off. 
No rot or anything. and right below the point where the top growth fell off, there was a very small brand new growth starting. 

I guess the plant wants to start over somehow. 

Now, the limp top growth has these two small nubins that would develop into roots. My hope is slim, but just for fun, I would like to see if this thing could survive.
Unfortunately I ran out of sphagnum moss, so I have this plant inside a zip loc bag with moist tissue paper at the base.


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## Paphman910 (Jul 15, 2016)

Same thing happened to me with a Paph micranthum. The growth broke off similar to the one in your picture. I threw out the root part which was a big mistake. The top grew new roots. I had another micranthum that did the same thing but this time I kept the root part and the top. The root part had a rhizome on it and a new growth developed! Should not have thrown out the root part!


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## PaphMadMan (Jul 15, 2016)

It isn't hopeless, as long as there is healthy stem tissue buried in among the leaf bases and you don't have an ongoing rot issue. You don't need sphagnum, but tissue paper will easily compress and stay too wet. Fine bark mix would be good, or any mix that will stay moist but well aerated, not soggy. High humidity is essential. Since it is trying to grow roots a rooting promoter like KelpMax, or pot growers cloning gel, could be helpful. They won't do much if it isn't in a root growing mood. But as one of my Paph growing gurus taught me long ago, it must be stabilized in the mix. ANY movement that impacts a tender root tip can stop growth absolutely. Find a way to hold it in place, rock steady, and give it a few weeks.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jul 15, 2016)

Interesting!

Well, in my case, obviously, if I were to throw away anything, it would be the top growth with no root.
The root part in the pot has a lot of roots with now two growths. 

By the way, this plant is Shunfa Golden x delenatii, but I wonder if it is mislabeled since I do not see any dark pigmentation on the leaves at all. not a single spot.

The pattern definitely is delenatii and whatever else. lol


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## Happypaphy7 (Jul 15, 2016)

PaphMadMan said:


> It isn't hopeless, as long as there is healthy stem tissue buried in among the leaf bases and you don't have an ongoing rot issue. You don't need sphagnum, but tissue paper will easily compress and stay too wet. Fine bark mix would be good, or any mix that will stay moist but well aerated, not soggy. High humidity is essential. Since it is trying to grow roots a rooting promoter like KelpMax, or pot growers cloning gel, could be helpful. They won't do much if it isn't in a root growing mood. But as one of my Paph growing gurus taught me long ago, it must be stabilized in the mix. ANY movement that impacts a tender root tip can stop growth absolutely. Find a way to hold it in place, rock steady, and give it a few weeks.



Yes, that is my concern also, but I just didn't want it dry as it is really limp as is at the moment. The vascular tissues must have been cut off inside long ago and the top growth has been just hanging in there I think.
The base of this limp growth has two very small root starts. You can see at least one in the photo, that yellowish part right next to the black dead area at the base.

I have to come up with something quick. I'll try tying this to a skewer and keep it in a container of some sort until roots develop. 
I don't know.


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## Linus_Cello (Jul 16, 2016)

I'm trying with a philippinensis in s/h


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## Happypaphy7 (Jul 16, 2016)

Good luck!


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## paphioboy (Jul 18, 2016)

Try rooting it in a small pot of coarse/medium sand or small limestone. I have tried rooting such 'cuttings' (usually barbata or brachys that separated from the main clump) but the key is not to keep them too moist or the rot will kill them. You can hole the plant upright by supporting the plant with bamboo skewers or chopsticks. The Thai growers use these for recently-repotted plants or new divisions.


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## phraggy (Jul 18, 2016)

I've had some success with rootless paphs by planting them in LIVE moss. It takes a few months for anything to happen but eventually the nubbins will become good roots ----- worth a try!!!

Ed


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## Happypaphy7 (Jul 18, 2016)

Wish me luck!


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## PaphMadMan (Jul 18, 2016)

phraggy said:


> I've had some success with rootless paphs by planting them in LIVE moss. It takes a few months for anything to happen but eventually the nubbins will become good roots ----- worth a try!!!
> 
> Ed



Yes, live sphagnum can do miracles. I maintain at an intensive care terrarium with live sphagnum for just such an emergency.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jul 18, 2016)

I will look up on eBay later. 
I once ordered live sphag earlier this year and it came 90% dead. 
I still used it of course, but maybe dead ones are not as good??

I read that they thrive under cool and bright condition. 
Must have been too warm and too dark during the short trip in the box.


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## Hyun007 (Jul 18, 2016)

If the leaves went limp, my solution is to use a skewer and wire to suppport it upright.

I am doing that with my Parishii and it helps the leaves to stand again. Had done that in the past with Callosum as well.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jul 21, 2016)

Thanks, all.

Haven't yet gotten live moss but in the meantime, the plant is rooting on the wet paper towel. lol


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## phraggy (Jul 21, 2016)

PaphMadMan said:


> Yes, live sphagnum can do miracles. I maintain at an intensive care terrarium with live sphagnum for just such an emergency.



Can you share with us the conditions you apply to keep the sphagnum moss alive and growing --- I think lots of readers would be very interested in a new thread on this subject -- thankyou

Ed


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## Ray (Jul 21, 2016)

Ed, I'm sure others will speak up, but in my experience, low-TDS water and reasonable light levels will allow dry sphagnum to germinate and grow very well.


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## PaphMadMan (Jul 23, 2016)

Ray said:


> Ed, I'm sure others will speak up, but in my experience, low-TDS water and reasonable light levels will allow dry sphagnum to germinate and grow very well.



Yes, but a quicker start if you can get live sphagnum. Low TDS water is essential but it does need a complete fertilizer like any plant, just very low levels. I would add that it needs high humidity to really thrive, and nearly constant moisture but never soggy. Really the same conditions as many moisture/humidty loving miniature orchids or carnivorous plants. 

A cheap terrarium made from a translucent plastic storage tub is what I usually use, spread the sphag on a layer of fine or medium bark and charcoal mix, internal fan for good air movement, and Phalaenopsis light level or more. Once there is a good growth of moss it is a perfect intensive care unit or spa treatment for anything rootless or dehydrated.

If you start with live sphag from a cool temperate zone source it does seem to appreciate a simulated winter of a few weeks a year approaching near freezing chill. NZ sphag doesn't need that.


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## NYEric (Jul 23, 2016)

I hadn't read this thread. If you want moss next time you come by just take it.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jul 23, 2016)

Sure, thanks. They looked really nice. 
I'm sure you will keep them alive with your frequent watering.


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## Migrant13 (Jul 23, 2016)

Why live versus dried sphag? Is it microbes and added humidity that make the difference?


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## PaphMadMan (Jul 23, 2016)

Migrant13 said:


> Why live versus dried sphag? Is it microbes and added humidity that make the difference?



I definitely see better response to live sphag. I can speculate why...

Sphagnum always has antimicrobial activity, but some compounds will be lacking in dead moss as it ages, and dead moss doesn't react to the environment. Live moss may actually respond to the presence of pathogens.

Most plants will grow better surrounded by healthy growing neighbors in a living environment than in sterile isolation. Sphagnum provides that without crowding or shading.


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## phraggy (Jul 25, 2016)

Has anyone noticed that after putting a rootless paph in live moss for a few months the roots seem to grow much thicker and harder --- almost out of proportion to the plant!!

Ed


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## Carper (Jul 25, 2016)

I've had good success with developing new roots. I usually go towards the basket type as the pot, either plastic or wood. Larger orchiata bark at the base and finer towards the top. Then the top layer being live moss. I only water with normally ro water then alternate with say Maxicrop, (seaweed extract). I won't normally feed at all hoping it will promote the root growth as it can't take anything up anyway unless you foliar feed. This very weak approach helps the live sphagnum and will lightly spray to keep damp only.

Gary
UK


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## Erythrone (Jul 25, 2016)

Never tried with live Sphagnum but I had very good success with dry sphagnum, more than 80% of the plants are now easily rescued when I plant them in sphag, put the pot in plastic bag, in very low light, and wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.... Roting of the plants is now very rare with the use of Sub culture B. And most of the plants I rescued were not as great as yours...


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## troy (Jul 25, 2016)

I paid 75.00 dollars for a single growth paph bruno 'model' with no roots dammit!!! I learned my lesson


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## jtrmd (Jul 26, 2016)

Clonex has worked for me in the past


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## KyushuCalanthe (Jul 28, 2016)

I've done it and here's living proof! This P. Chou-Yi Yuki was completely rootless last year and now is recovering nicely. I did it by keeping it in very high humidity and planting in pure dried sphagnum. Now I'm trying to figure out if I should repot it into a more standard mix again.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jul 29, 2016)

Great to hear about that report, Tom!
Is this hang x niveum?
I would love to get one or ten!!!  

Wish the best on the continued recovery!
My plant in the zip loc bag and moist paper towel is now growing two roots.
Moss has not yet arrived. Hmmm


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## Hyun007 (Jul 30, 2016)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> I've done it and here's living proof! This P. Chou-Yi Yuki was completely rootless last year and now is recovering nicely. I did it by keeping it in very high humidity and planting in pure dried sphagnum. Now I'm trying to figure out if I should repot it into a more standard mix again.


Do you keep the sphagnum dry all the time? what about watering???


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## KyushuCalanthe (Jul 30, 2016)

Hyun007 said:


> Do you keep the sphagnum dry all the time? what about watering???



I knew that "dried sphagnum" might be confusing - what I meant was that it was not live moss since folks talked about that earlier in the thread. The pot was kept continuously moist, not dry ever.


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## Redtwist (Aug 4, 2016)

I've had to attempt this today - the Chui Hua Dancer I recently got looked fine on top, but guess what, rotten roots infested with insects. That'll teach me to try ebay. I've cut it all away, bathed in Physan, then bug killer, then dusted with ant powder (taking no chances here). Now propped in a live-moss/spagnum heavy mix. I'll be watching and hoping for the next few weeks at least.


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## phraggy (Aug 5, 2016)

You must have bought this from either falconer1211 or airplanefan or one of the other names they go under and charge exhorbitant prices for dreadful plants-- and they are always stated as --UK grown --total rubbish. Sorry for your dissapointment but this seller infuriates me with their crap products.

Ed


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## Redtwist (Aug 5, 2016)

Ah, Ed! You are so right! If only I had asked your advice first. I expect I'm not the first to be sucked in. In truth, I thought even from the photos on the listings most of the ebay offerings over here looked dodgy plants, but it was the only place I'd seen a CHDancer for sale here. I actually returned the first one - allegedly bud blast, but to my eye crown rot - and was initially going to walk away with my refund, but they offered a smaller, cheaper one that seemed all good. But what lurks beneath the surface! 
I'll still try to save it. If I'm successful it will probably turn out to be something totally different I expect! Bugger.


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## phraggy (Aug 6, 2016)

I've been after a chui hua dancer for ages but cannot find a reliable vendor.
Best of luck with your replacement but as you say -- the odds on it being what you want will be very debatable. It will take so long to bloom it will be impossible to complain --- ebay have received complaints but they do nothing about these 'shark vendors'

Ed


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## Redtwist (Aug 6, 2016)

Well Ed, if it does survive and (even more unlikely) is the real thing I'll let you know if I ever get it big enough for division - if you can wait ten years!
Totally agree with the slackness of ebay - the worst thing they ever did was to dispense with the negative feedback option. Buyers now feel compelled to say only good things or not at all. Now you can't trust a vendors 'positive' feedback.


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## marqdiego (Sep 11, 2016)

jtrmd said:


> Clonex has worked for me in the past


Can you tell me a little more about using clonex?
I have it and i'm thinking about to use it in a rootles tiny delenatii. But i'm afraid of loose it because o clonex.


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## Stone (Sep 11, 2016)

marqdiego said:


> Can you tell me a little more about using clonex?
> I have it and i'm thinking about to use it in a rootles tiny delenatii. But i'm afraid of loose it because o clonex.



Clonex gel will probably work but the problem is that you can only get 3 strengths. Try the weakest (for softwood cuttings). Or if you can get a liquid IBA, you can dilute it even more. You could try 500ppm (0.05 %) for a quick dip or 200ppm for a 3 hour soak making sure that only the bottom of the plant touches the hormone. Point is that too little is better than too much!


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## marqdiego (Sep 12, 2016)

Thank you Mike!!!


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## Justin (Sep 13, 2016)

It can take up to 6 months to re-root. 

Kelp products can be extremely effective to stimulate roots. On healthy established paphs i often see a new flush of roots 2 weeks after application.


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## Redtwist (Oct 21, 2016)

phraggy said:


> I've been after a chui hua dancer for ages but cannot find a reliable vendor.
> Best of luck with your replacement but as you say -- the odds on it being what you want will be very debatable. It will take so long to bloom it will be impossible to complain --- ebay have received complaints but they do nothing about these 'shark vendors'
> 
> Ed



Rootless CHDancer update:
Took a peek under the moss today and dead chuffed to see a bunch of new root tips starting! If I can nurse them to a half decent system over the heatmat this winter hopefully it might actually start to grow next year.


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## SlipperFan (Oct 21, 2016)

:clap::clap:


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## Ozpaph (Oct 21, 2016)

post a pic, please


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## Redtwist (Oct 22, 2016)

Ozpaph said:


> post a pic, please



Would love to post a pic, but I would have to completed unpot it to do so and I dont want to disturb it just yet. As soon as the tips are a little longer


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## phraggy (Oct 24, 2016)

Redtwist said:


> Rootless CHDancer update:
> Took a peek under the moss today and dead chuffed to see a bunch of new root tips starting! If I can nurse them to a half decent system over the heatmat this winter hopefully it might actually start to grow next year.



So pleased for you that new roots are showing. Keep up the good work.

Ed


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## Redtwist (Nov 25, 2016)

So here are some pics of the recovering CHDancer. I was going to unpot it for a proper look, but spotted two roots nearly out to the pot edge and decided its clearly happy for now. Even better, a new leaf has appeared in the new growths crown at last. 
Substrate is the same as my other multis - clay pellets, small/medium bark mix and a little finely chopped sphagnum, then top dressed with some moss from the garden - only I used more moss than normal to try and promote the rooting. I kept the pot on the dry side lower down, but spraying the moss heavily at the top twice a day. I was giving it 4hrs day and night on a heat mat at first, but now only at night with the others. Upping the watering and light now it looks to going places.


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## troy (Nov 25, 2016)

Chiu hua dancer favor alkaline environments


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## Redtwist (Nov 25, 2016)

troy said:


> Chiu hua dancer favor alkaline environments





I'm using an occasional dol.lime top dressing, plus 30% hard tap water, so hopefully its getting pretty alkaline. Seems to be liking the treatment so far.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## phraggy (Nov 28, 2016)

Congrats and well done Chris. Now let's hope that it is a CH dancer!!!!

Ed


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## Redtwist (Nov 28, 2016)

Thanks Ed! Yes, time will tell. (Whatever it is, I'm not expecting much from the first bloom after this much trauma!)


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