# nutrient deficiency symptom in orchids



## naoki (Feb 12, 2015)

I came across a clear case of nutrient deficiency with my Phrag, so I thought I would share. It might be somewhat interesting. It is a small Phrag warszewiczianum (former wallisii, with the sharp lip edge).





The top leaf on the left (and the base of the right leaf) has white bands (chlorosis). Below is my reasoning, and I'd like to see what you think.

This happened to the newly expanding regions of the leaves and not appearing in the old leaves, so the deficiency is likely to be due to phloem immobile elements. Boron, Iron and Calcium are the typical immobile elements. Then copper, manganese, molybdenum, sulfur and zinc are moderately mobile. "mobile" means that when there is some deficiency in the growing tissues, those needed elements in the older tissues will move to the new tissues. So the symptoms of the deficiency in mobile elements like N, P, K, and Mg appears in the older leaves at first.

So I suspected Iron or Ca, and decided to measure the pH of pour through. But pH was OK around 6 (high pH causes Fe deficiency in general). I have been trying to use up the fertilizer made from old MSU concentrate (from 2-3 years ago, I think). Before that I was using fertilizer without Ca or Dyna-Gro, so I didn't know about the precipitation issues (or I was underestimating the issue). Then I was reading Bjorn's DIY fertilizer thread. After looking at DavidCampen's and Bjorn's recipe, I started to learn about the precipitation. From what I can find, the main precipitation could be one of
CaSO4, CaHPO4, MgHPO4, K2SO4

So I'm guessing the symptom is coming from Ca deficiency. Although chlorosis may not be the "typical" Ca deficiency symptom in crops, nutrient recycling rates of epiphytes/orchids seem to be quite different from crop plants, so the symptom may be different for different species.

I'm not good at chemistry, so I don't understand why they precipitate. But I know there are lots of people who understand chemistry here. So my question is this: are there any other (especially micro-) elements which may precipitate if you make a concentrated stock solution?

Anyway, I thought that it might be fun to see what happens to Phrag if you keep ignoring the precipitation of fertilizer. It is also interesting that other species didn't show the same symptom.


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## Bjorn (Feb 12, 2015)

I've seen similar things as well Naoki, mostly on newly aquired plants or plants from flask. They keep the chlorotic spots but may eventually grow out of it. May well be some non-translocatable deficiency like Ca. Try with some crushed limestone sprinkling, or oyster shell. But as mentioned do not believe that the spots will disappear, but new growth may be healtier.
PS: just a suggestion, might be something alse and more "exotic", but calcium addition will normally not harm. Just remember that limestone is not lime. Limestone is calcium carbonate while lime commonly is calcium hydroxide. The latter has a high pH and is dangerous to use.


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## Ray (Feb 12, 2015)

The primary effect of a calcium deficiency is necrosis of the meristem - black leaf tips - is it not?

Even though it is translocatable, I have seen that happen in plants that were deprived of magnesium (Which, if we believe our discussions here, can follow a less-severe calcium deficiency). Adding a single BIG does of Epsom Salts remedied it over time.


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## naoki (Feb 12, 2015)

I think I increased Ca (and whatever other things) with my hard well water (800-900ppm TDS). I use Dolomite Lime granules for other species, but I haven't used them for Phrags. But I'll keep eyes on, and I might add it. I think Dolomite Lime is closer to Limestone than to Lime (the powdered stuff), isn't it?

Well, the white region is from about one month of growth, and after I changed fertilization (about 3 weeks ago), the newer leaf (bottom part) started to become green. I gave CalMag (nitrates), then I added a bit more well water (my well water is 800-900ppm TDS, 1/2cp per gallon) to regular fertilization water. Then I used other fertilizers like Peter's and also fresh K-Lite. I did also give some Epsom salt. Since I changed a lot, I can't say exactly what it is.

I agree Ray, it doesn't seem to match with the textbook Ca deficiency. In corn, rice, and soybeans, there are lots of studies of the deficiency symptoms. But in orchids, most of them seems to be anecdotal, and I haven't found controlled experiments to show the deficiency symptoms in orchids (Wang has some in Phalaenopsis).

With Mg deficiency (in orchids), don't you have the chlorosis repaired after fixing the problem (i.e. chlorosis goes away)? Or have you seen some case where white region produced by Mg deficiency remained white?

The symptom does match with text book Fe deficiency, doesn't it? I don't understand Fe and chelation issues. Bjorn, does Fe possibly precipitate in concentrated fertilizer?

As a related note, when I was looking into DIY fertilizer, I came across this patent:
Water-soluble solid fertilizer using urea phosphate and calcium nitrate; precipitate-free solutions; non-chelated metal salt micronutrients
I don't understand it, but is it something possibly useful for DIY fert? Bjorn already use Urea.


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## Ray (Feb 12, 2015)

naoki said:


> With Mg deficiency (in orchids), don't you have the chlorosis repaired after fixing the problem (i.e. chlorosis goes away)? Or have you seen some case where white region produced by Mg deficiency remained white?


 The replenishment of chlorophyll takes a while, but it does eventually correct itself.


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## Stone (Feb 12, 2015)

Sorry to disagree but I don't see this as a deficiency. Or to put it more accurately, I don't think it is caused by a deficiency in nutrient application. 

My reasoning: The chlorosis on the new leaf and the small band on the second newest leaf shows that this problem happened when the second leaf was 3/4 expanded and the new leaf still tiny. On both sides of the paleness we have green. This indicates some kind of short lived stress lasting perhaps a couple of months which inhibited uptake (quite possibly of iron from pH problem?). What that stress may have been is unknown but the fact that it has rectified itself together with the fact that others are not affected shows me that no change in fertilizer practice is needed. It may even be genetic?? I have a compot of sanderianums where one--only one seedling shows this white banding while the rest are fine. It seems to be growing out now but I have no idea what causes it.


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## naoki (Feb 12, 2015)

Ray, that's true, I'll see if the white band disappears after a while.

Mike, you are good! But, you are still saying that it is nutrient deficiency (stress mediated), aren't you?

The MSU stock has tons of precipitation (the bottom of the container is completely covered by precipitated particles). Most people would ditch it.

I have 2 areas (cool-intermediate and intermediate-warm). The plant was in the cool area (was hitting low of 10-12C = 50-55F), but I moved it to the warm area around Dec. So this low temp is the stress (and the plant wasn't growing for a couple month before the move). Before the move, I was using the precipitated MSU without well water addition for a couple months. When it started to expand the leaf in the warm area, I noticed the white leaves. But I kept using precipitated MSU. As you guessed, the small green tip was already out last summer before the move. I originally thought that it is probably due to the shock from the sudden change in the environment, so I didn't do anything. In the beginning of Jan, the white area was getting bigger and bigger, so I decided to take an action, and checked media pH, and stopped using precipitated MSU. Then after a couple weeks of changing the fertilization, the new expansion became green (and the problem seems to be taken care of now).

So my logic was that sudden release from stress caused the plant to grow suddenly (and needed nutrients). Also the media of other plants in the cool area contains some sphag (higher CEC), but this phag was in pure bark. That's why the symptom is obvious only in this plant. I wasn't using the precipitated MSU so frequently in the warm area. It is still anecdotal, so we don't know the real cause.

I experienced white band before, but the cause wasn't clear. I suspected weak root system for those cases.

It is also possible there is some species or individuals which is susceptible in low nutrients. Did the white band of sanderianum remain white (what Bjorn said above)?

I probably should have tried supplementing with Chelated Fe, but I didn't have it. But from what I read, chlorosis due to Fe is supposed to disappear eventually (e.g. after chelated Fe irrigation or FeSO4 foliar spray). I think I should check the pH of the precipitated MSU.


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## bullsie (Feb 12, 2015)

You made out well moving them when it started to get cool. I got an air bubble in my water system and being preoccupied with other serious issues never realized one of my rooms was getting no heat. Would have been nice if it had been any other room but the one the plants were in. I know for sure it hit the low 50's when I discovered it and may have well been in the 40's. Most of the Catts survived, but can't say the same for the Phrags.....oh well.....


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## myxodex (Feb 13, 2015)

Stone said:


> Sorry to disagree but I don't see this as a deficiency. Or to put it more accurately, I don't think it is caused by a deficiency in nutrient application.
> 
> My reasoning: The chlorosis on the new leaf and the small band on the second newest leaf shows that this problem happened when the second leaf was 3/4 expanded and the new leaf still tiny. On both sides of the paleness we have green. This indicates some kind of short lived stress lasting perhaps a couple of months which inhibited uptake (quite possibly of iron from pH problem?). What that stress may have been is unknown but the fact that it has rectified itself together with the fact that others are not affected shows me that no change in fertilizer practice is needed. It may even be genetic?? I have a compot of sanderianums where one--only one seedling shows this white banding while the rest are fine. It seems to be growing out now but I have no idea what causes it.



I also do not think this is a straight forward nutritional effect. It reminds me of the tiger-stripe variegation in some Neofinetia falcata varieties and with these there is almost certainly a genetic component. In the neo strains with this feature high light levels and rapid growth are often important to induce it and I've heard that there are even cultural methods aimed at enhancing or controlling this feature to get optimal display plants.

There are quite a number of neo strains with tiger stripe variegation showing different characteristics; some have white bands instead of yellow, some only show banding during the summer growth season after which it mostly disappears,... so it does seem as though this type of mutation has happened more than once in neos and it is also found in cymbidiums. I guess it would not be surprising to find it in other orchids as a latent or conditional phenotype and so only revealing itself under particular circumstances such as light, temperature, nutrient imbalance etc.

If a nutrient imbalance is involved I would have sulphur as my number one suspect. Not only is it essential for chlorophyll synthesis, S-limited plants can have increased light sensitivity which is thought to be due to low glutathione levels. Also your precipitated fertiliser was probably even lower in S than standard MSU is anyway.


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## Happypaphy7 (Feb 13, 2015)

I like your idea, Mike.

I also have one paph, only one among hundreds, showing this strange white band in the middle of one or two leaves.

Genetic sounds more like it.


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## naoki (Feb 13, 2015)

I hope that your Phrags will be OK, bullsie.

It is interesting that Neo's tiger stripes are influenced by environment, myxodex! I didn't know that. But you are right, S is a likely candidate. In MSU, Ca is 8% and S is 0.1%. So in terms of the number of molecules, Ca:S is 8/40 : 0.1/32 = 64:1. So if the precipitation is CaSO4, S is much more likely to be depleted at first than Ca. Maybe Epsom salt helped it.


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## Chicago Chad (Feb 13, 2015)

Naoki I use Sugar Daddy for S and Mg supplement.
http://www.technaflora.com/indexProduct.php?ID=106


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## Stone (Feb 13, 2015)

naoki said:


> > The MSU stock has tons of precipitation (the bottom of the container is completely covered by precipitated particles). Most people would ditch it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Stone (Feb 13, 2015)

Ok so this is the fertilizer. Remember half of the ingredients are over 2 years old.
Cubed and fermented and dried: The mould has penetrated the entire cube (rock hard!!)




Crushed. Can be sieved to any size.. the larger the particles the longer it lasts but the more you need to apply:




The F.C Puddle (there are others but this illustrates the point well) fed only this for at least 18 months. It has been fed 3 times this season so far. It is due for a top up shortly. For a plant this size I would use enough to just cover a 10 cent piece (about 1 inch) in 3 places around the pot once per month during the growing season and nothing at all in winter.
As you can see, everything the plant needs is in the organic mix. This plant is subjected to very bright light (50%) for about 4 hours in the morning. Getting it to look darker than this is impossible without more shade.




I would love to see someone else trial this type of feeding.


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## naoki (Feb 14, 2015)

Thanks, Chad. Wonder why it is called Sugar Daddy. I also wonder if it is different from Epsom Salt (Mg SO4).

Mike, it's looking great! Wow, composting for 2 years? I also have read some evidence showing that organic+inorganic fertilization is better than just chemical fert with orchids. As you said, those textbook 17 essential elements are not the only minerals which plants use (and some different species could use some different elements). So organic ones can supplement the missing ones possibly. With N source, different types of N source do influence the growth pattern of plants, but I wonder if it is the case with the other elements, though.

So I'm interested in organic ones, too. Composting (especially manure based ones) is a challenge for me in the cold climate. After your thread, I started my worm composting in the kitchen. And I'm also considering EM-1 bokashi. I wonder if EM-1 can speed up your 2 year process of composting. As a related note, I was reading this patent of Inocucor, and it mentions that they brew it with fish emulsion. So I also started to brew EM-1 with Molasses + a bit of fish emulsion in hope to add whatever "micro" stuff.


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## Happypaphy7 (Feb 14, 2015)

I used to use something similar to what Mike use.
What I used was sesame seed meal (I don't know the term, but basically the leftover material after the oil has been squeezed out of it, in the Far East, sesame oil is what nearly everyone uses for many things they cook or flavor, and these leftover was thrown out, so I got it for free all the time) mixed with some bone meal.
You add some water and place the gooey mixture in a jar (no glass but something that doesn't let the light through) and cover the opening with cotton pad. Leave this in the shade where the ventilation is good for about two months and then it is ready. While fermentation is going on, the smell is rather bad but once the thing is ready for use, the smell is not that disturbing at all and also a way to tell when it is ready.
I then made them into the shape of small balls (about one inch diameter)and dry in the air.
You can use it as is by placing it on top of the pot (one ball for a pot size of about 8 in, so this thing is rather strong) or make it into powder like Mike does.

Once you do not see this fertilizer in the pot, you add some more.
I only used it in the spring into early fall. about three times a year.
Everything grows very good with this. 
It does attract bugs, not pest but flies and stuff. very annoying, plus some minor smell issues, but this is when I grew things out of the house.

Organic fertilizer as great as they are, is not an option for me unless I move out of the city. lol


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## Chicago Chad (Feb 14, 2015)

They call it sugar daddy because there is also about 2% cane sugar in it. Also, to intice the cannabis growers. They use it just after the final stage of fertilizing with all the heavy macros, especially P. I guess it is the one thing they want left 'in' the plant at harvest.


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## bullsie (Feb 14, 2015)

naoki said:


> I hope that your Phrags will be OK, bullsie.



Thanks naoki! Sadly, I lost all my kovachi hybrids. Everyone else had badly burned leaves. They are now recovering but sure left me frazzled.


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## andre (Feb 15, 2015)

I have had similar coloration lines near the crown of some of my large multi flowered Paph species. It happened after I sprayed with physan mixture that was way too concentrated. I have also bleached out areas from excessive light from my metal halide.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## naoki (Feb 16, 2015)

bullsie, I thought that P. kovachi is supposed to be fairly cool growing. But it's too bad you lost them....

andre, you are right, I have done the same thing with Physan (not this Phrag, though). Physan's tech info says: "PHYSAN generally is not phytotoxic to plants at concentrations below 400 ppm (1/4 ounce per gallon of water). However, this can vary depending on the type of plant and its stage of growth." That's 0.5TBS (or 1.4tsp) per gallon. But a bad combination of timing/environment seems to cause those minor injury.

Happypaphy, I guess you have to worry about the complaints from neighbors. Growing up in a Japanese farm, I do remember the stink during the fermentation, too.


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## cnycharles (Feb 16, 2015)

Generally you can't use physan safely on young plants without some chance of burn, which was the recommendation I'd heard from fellow growers of flowering annuals, just a hard surface sterilant


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## Bjorn (Mar 24, 2015)

Did we actually come to a conclusion in this thread? What causes the yellow spots? The reason for asking is that I recently saw a similar pattern on one of my kovachiis


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## naoki (Mar 24, 2015)

Bjorn, the white band slowly greened up over a month or so. If I have time tonight, I'll post the updated photo. I can't say much from this 1 incidence, but I'm tempted to think that myxodex's suggestion of S could be the likely cause in my case. If CaSO4 is the precipitate, S could be all gone (since there are higher number of Ca molecules in MSU). Also phloem mobility of S is intermediate, so it somewhat matches with the observation (the relatively newly growing tissues are influenced, and it can be recovered after a while). But I changed quite a bit of things (started to add small amount of MgSO4, EM-1 etc), so I don't know the exact cause. When the plant becomes a bit bigger, I will try to induce the white strip again (with the precipitated MSU).

How are you growing your P. kovachii? I'm a bit worried because my seedlings (2-3cm leaf length, deflasked last spring) seem to have growth spout and stationary phase. It could be temp related, but my indoor condition doesn't have lots of seasonal variation in temp. I checked the pour-through pH, and it was ok (about 6.7). I sprinkled additional Dolomite Lime granules, and they seem to resume the growth a little bit recently (but it could be spring thing). I'm using fine bark based mix with some sphag, and bottom water tray. Top water every other day (so they are continuously wet).


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## gonewild (Mar 24, 2015)

naoki said:


> How are you growing your P. kovachii? I'm a bit worried because my seedlings (2-3cm leaf length, deflasked last spring) seem to have growth spout and stationary phase. It could be temp related, but my indoor condition doesn't have lots of seasonal variation in temp. I checked the pour-through pH, and it was ok (about 6.7). I sprinkled additional Dolomitic Lime granules, and they seem to resume the growth a little bit recently (but it could be spring thing). I'm using fine bark based mix with some sphag, and bottom water tray. Top water every other day (so they are continuously wet).



If you add crushed limestone to your media they will grow faster.


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## naoki (Mar 25, 2015)

White stripe on the top left leaf became mostly green after 5 weeks.





Thanks, Lance. Is limestone (CaCO3) better than Dolomite (CaMg(CO3)2)? I think the pH is not so far off from the natural habitat pH which Rick posted.


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## gonewild (Mar 25, 2015)

naoki said:


> Thanks, Lance. Is limestone (CaCO3) better than Dolomite (CaMg(CO3)2)? I think the pH is not so far off from the natural habitat pH which Rick posted.



I do not know the answer to which is better. I suspect they will give equal results.

I did a trial that proved that the addition of physical pieces of limestone mixed in the media improved the growth of kovachii.For the crushed limestone I used I used pieces about 6-10mm in size and it was limestone I collected from a river levee so I do not know the chemical form of limestone. 

The reason I suspect the form of limestone may not matter is because in the trial I also used oyster shell as one variable and the results were equal.
The growth improvement was not because of a rise in pH because I covered that variable also. I concluded that the roots benefited from direct contact with limestone.


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## Ray (Mar 25, 2015)

If one adheres to the notion that plants tend to use calcium and magnesium together, I'd think the dolomite would be a better choice.

However, as far as nursery-grade carbonates go, they never are exactly formulaic - CaCO3 always has some Mg in it (and in dolomite, you'll never find one that has exactly a 1:1 ratio).


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## gonewild (Mar 25, 2015)

Ray said:


> If one adheres to the notion that plants tend to use calcium and magnesium together, I'd think the dolomite would be a better choice.
> 
> However, as far as nursery-grade carbonates go, they never are exactly formulaic - CaCO3 always has some Mg in it (and in dolomite, you'll never find one that has exactly a 1:1 ratio).



I suppose if you want to make a choice you should consider the amount of magnesium applied with the liquid feed.

After the results of the trial I did my opinion was that the limestone did not improve the growth as a result of adding extra nutrients. I think there is some reactive association between the actual solid limestone and the root.


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## Stone (Mar 25, 2015)

I found and still find this study interesting. It shows a relationship between Ca and Mg. It shows that what is important when growing plants from alkaline systems (in this case at least and not that kovachii grows very alkaline), what is important is the Ca/Mg ratio rather than the pH or the even the final concentrations of these elements.
The ratio is worked out as Ca divided by Mg.
They grew equally well at pH of 5.5 and 7.5 as long as the Ca/Mg ratio was was over 4 and possibly below about 10. It also may mean that when selecting materials, plain limetone or a 50/50 mix of dolomite and limetsone may be a better choice in some cases. Very interesting!


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## naoki (Mar 26, 2015)

Thank you for your trial info, Lance. Very interesting, I wonder what the cause is. I should give it a try.

Thanks for the info about Ca:Mg, Ray and Mike. I think it is from this book:
https://books.google.com/books?id=d...gTM2IHwDw&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
I should get this book.


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## Stone (Mar 26, 2015)

naoki said:


> Thank you for your trial info, Lance. Very interesting, I wonder what the cause is. I should give it a try.
> 
> Thanks for the info about Ca:Mg, Ray and Mike. I think it is from this book:
> https://books.google.com/books?id=d...gTM2IHwDw&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
> I should get this book.



Yes and yes


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## Bjorn (Mar 26, 2015)

Naoki, thank you for update, this thread is transforming into something very interesting. I am currently travelling, so not much can be done right now, but will be home again tomorrow, My spots may be of another origin, as they seem to have a kind of necrotic center almost as if something chewed on it. But there is this replica like thing on the adjacent leaf just as you had. I changed my fertiliser some time ago, and this may have been caused during a period without fertilising. My water should contain plenty of nutrients though also sulpur so I do not think it is that. Might have been lack of Mg though. what are the "experts" opinion to that?


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## gonewild (Mar 26, 2015)

naoki said:


> Thank you for your trial info, Lance. Very interesting, I wonder what the cause is. I should give it a try.



I have only guesses as to what the cause might be. It may have something to do with energy exchange. Perhaps the mass of limestone is a catalyst to nutrient uptake? It's easy to measure minerals and chemical elements present it plant tissue and the surrounding environment but we have no real concept of how and why those elements move around, change form and make a shape. There is more to it than just the actual nutrients.

Mixing limestone into the media won't have a negative effect so trying it is zero risk. If you decide to try it I suggest that you continue liquid applications of Ca and Mg as normal and not assume the limestone will provide those nutrients.


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## naoki (Mar 26, 2015)

Bjorn, it would be interesting to see the photo of your chlorosis. Mg is unlikely to cause stripes in theory. But "theory" may not apply to all plants.

Certain key nutrients (N is usually considered to be the limiting factor in nature) promote the growth, and I'm speculating that we see white stripes when plants get activated even though some other key nutrients (something which is less mobile) are missing. The white stripe appeared on mine when it was rapidly growing (after slow period) indeed. It started to grow suddenly when I moved from cooler area to more intermediate temp region.

Lance, that's beyond what I understand about plants. I guess touching to a rock could initiate some different metabolism in the root.

Ca is supposed to be a double edge sword (much more than K), and for garden plants, too much liming can cause lots of problems as you know. So it is not completely risk-free. But I'll try mixing (instead of topping).


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## gonewild (Mar 26, 2015)

naoki said:


> Lance, that's beyond what I understand about plants. I guess touching to a rock could initiate some different metabolism in the root.



It is beyond what anyone understands about plants. That's why it is a guess. But it is something some "scientist" should consider and look at, something beyond the common concept.



> Ca is supposed to be a double edge sword (much more than K), and for garden plants, too much liming can cause lots of problems as you know. So it is not completely risk-free. But I'll try mixing (instead of topping).



But we are not talking about garden plants growing in clay soil. Adding limestone to media for Phrags is risk free, specifically for kovachii it is zero risk since it grows naturally in broken limestone and organic matter.


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## Stone (Mar 26, 2015)

gonewild said:


> > Adding limestone to media for Phrags is risk free, specifically for kovachii it is zero risk since it grows naturally in broken limestone and organic matter
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## gonewild (Mar 26, 2015)

Stone said:


> gonewild said:
> 
> 
> > I presume you mean old weathered pieces and not raw, ground powder?
> ...


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## Bjorn (Mar 31, 2015)

Promised to show my kovachii with spots, well here it is:






Another one had indications as well





but the plant seems to be quite vigorous though





It is my perception that these spots may have formed during a period with reduced growth (or is it during onset of active growth?) and that they slowly are fading now. I have it only on these two kovachii's no other phrags. Could it be a deficiency? I stopped fertilising for a couple of months during late fall/Winter which is approximately when the spots were formed. Since I use rain and bog-water, that sounds a bit unreasonable though. Comments?


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## gonewild (Mar 31, 2015)

I don't think it is a deficiency. I had a couple kovachii seedlings have the white while in the flask and they kept it for multiple years and on new growths. I suspected they were genetically variegated. But I also realized the variegation could have been a result of a nutrient deficiency so I tried a lot of nutrient additions and variations to try to reverse the chlorotic color if that is what it was. Additional nutrients had no effect or aid in making the variegation disappear. I tried lighting from deep shade to nearly full sun with no effect. Temperature had no effect. It seemed the plants were actually variegated.

The final test came when these two plants had to stay with my MIL for a siz month period while we were on an extended trip to Peru, (I was growing them in California). She cared for my two rare variegated kovachii well right along side of her African Violet and potho and cactus and one Phal. She knows nothing about fertilizer so I told her not to feed them anything special just give them what she gives her other plants, which is basically nothing.

When I returned 6 months later the plants were in good condition with completely green leaves. So much for the variegated special plants. 

After this long story I now believe these white color areas on leaves are the result of a nutrient excess or imbalance of some sort. I never tried reducing the nutrient level to extreme low levels, but she did and the white went away.

But why did only two plants out of my 150 kovachii seedlings have this? The answer has to be genetics since they were that way in the flask. There were actually 4 plants that had the condition but only two had defined pattern the other two were consistent with the leaves you show here.

I believe this condition is a genetic anomaly that reacts to one or more nutrients in excess.


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## gonewild (Mar 31, 2015)

Here is a picture of the kovachii plants just before I left them with my MIL.
It's a cell phone picture so not the greatest resolution but it shows the variegation. The plants had just finished wintering outside and and survived frost. During the winter they got watered at least once per week with K-lite at 100ppm N and I attribute the survival of the wet and cold to the low potassium from the K-lite. But that's another story.

Previous to using K-lite the plants were fed nutrients based on MSU.


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## cnycharles (Mar 31, 2015)

Maybe you just didn't talk to them :>


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## Bjorn (Mar 31, 2015)

Looks similar indeed! But so much more accentuated! Well my plants have not been given K-lite for a year but low fertiliser in general (some 100ppm=20ppm N) and 50/50 urea/ nitrate. However during the time of spotformation nothing was added to the water. Could be some kind of imbalance I follow you there Lance.


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## gonewild (Mar 31, 2015)

Bjorn said:


> Looks similar indeed! But so much more accentuated! Well my plants have not been given K-lite for a year but low fertiliser in general (some 100ppm=20ppm N) and 50/50 urea/ nitrate. However during the time of spotformation nothing was added to the water. Could be some kind of imbalance I follow you there Lance.



Yes these two plants had very accentuated colors and on successive growths. The mature growths you see on the plants are not the original fans they are probably 3 or 4 fans older than the original from the flask. (Kovachii does not hold old growths very well)

Some kind of imbalance based on the genetics of the individual plant. Something perhaps like one person having an allergy to peanuts but the rest of his family does not or I don't sunburn easily but my brother does.


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## Stone (Mar 31, 2015)

Bjorn and Lance, What was the pH of the water when then these problems appeared? Were you both using rain/bog water only?


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## Bjorn (Apr 1, 2015)

Mike, 
I used bog/ rainwater only, think the pH was around 5-6. Do not check too often but think that was checked once during that period. But no calcium in the water for sure. Might have been other stuff though?..


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## Stone (Apr 1, 2015)

Bjorn said:


> Mike,
> I used bog/ rainwater only, think the pH was around 5-6. Do not check too often but think that was checked once during that period. But no calcium in the water for sure. Might have been other stuff though?..



Thanks Bjorn. I only ask because I noticed the same whitening on some sanderianum seedlings. I was giving them rain water exculsively. When I checked the pH (after months) I found it was about 4.5 to 5. After I started to mix town water with it and got it to around 6.5 to 7, the new growth seemed to improve a lot. Could it be that Ca is unavaiable to the these types of plants (wet and neutral pH) at low pH. I know for a fact that some calcicolous plants (not orchids) cannot!


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## Bjorn (Apr 1, 2015)

Mike, that has struck me as an explanation as well. but then, my substrate had marble chips added. But there was seemingly an improvement once I sprinkeled some dolomite chips on the substrate, which led me to believe it could have to do with Mg deficiency, or a combination perhaps? Could be coincidential as well, but these yellow blotches are a bit strange anyhow. And it is true what Lance writes, its only a few out of several that get these things.


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## naoki (Apr 1, 2015)

Lance's chlorosis seems pretty intense! Older leaves look fine in the photos.

Bjorn, was your stripes white/yellow when the region was coming out from the base of the leaves? Or did it change to the color after it was green?

Mg is highly mobile, so the older leaves will go chlorosis at first.

Pour-through pH is probably more interesting to look at than the irrigation pH, isn't it?


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## Bjorn (Apr 1, 2015)

Naoki,
believe the spots were there when they came out of the base, but not sure. Seems not to spread so I really cannot say why. Pour through pH might be more interesting that is right, but has not been done, so...I would expect it to be between 5 and 7 though...


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## gonewild (Apr 1, 2015)

Stone said:


> Bjorn and Lance, What was the pH of the water when then these problems appeared? Were you both using rain/bog water only?



I used RO water at that time.


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## gonewild (Apr 1, 2015)

Stone said:


> Thanks Bjorn. I only ask because I noticed the same whitening on some sanderianum seedlings. I was giving them rain water exculsively. When I checked the pH (after months) I found it was about 4.5 to 5. After I started to mix town water with it and got it to around 6.5 to 7, the new growth seemed to improve a lot. Could it be that Ca is unavaiable to the these types of plants (wet and neutral pH) at low pH. I know for a fact that some calcicolous plants (not orchids) cannot!



That is a possibility that the individual plants have a problem with low pH. But my water was never very acidic. As you can see I had a lot of limestone in the media and the pour through was not low pH.

When my MIL cared for the plants she would have used only tap water. Her water there would be higher pH and higher tds but I doubt the media pH would have elevated much.
There would be more chlorides in her water and also chlorine.
Now I'm wondering if the mineral content of the water that hits the foliage may have some additional effect in addition to the substrate. Something on the lines of acidic water on the leaves as opposed to neutral rainwater. When I water I always drench the leaves and that is what I instructed MIL to do. So perhaps acidic water leached leaves and basic water does not?

Except that does not explain why in my plants were variegated in the flask...... back to a genetic condition.


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