# Phrag besseae 'Lovebug'



## paphioland (Aug 7, 2008)

an awesome, awesome OZ produced clone.


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## NYEric (Aug 7, 2008)

3,4n?


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## paphioland (Aug 7, 2008)

all the modern OZ bess are 2n. Even the famous Jason Fischer 'Triplicate' is 
2n. It is an understandable common misconception that it is 3n.


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## GuRu (Aug 7, 2008)

Hey that's what I call *red* and what a shape !!! - just gorgeous. 
@ Eric - who cares about chromosomes when you see such a beauty??? Did you ask your wife for her chromosomes when you fell in love with her???

Best regards from Germany, rudolf


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## NYEric (Aug 7, 2008)

Ex! Yes actually; very heavy Arian stock! I'm very impressed with the shape and multi-floral quality from a normal plant. I, as with women, LOVE them all!


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## Yoyo_Jo (Aug 7, 2008)

gorgeous gorgeous gorgeous...:clap::drool:


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## goldenrose (Aug 7, 2008)

:clap: WOW :drool:


GuRu said:


> Hey that's what I call *red* and what a shape !!! - just gorgeous.
> @ Eric - who cares about chromosomes when you see such a beauty??? Did you ask your wife for her chromosomes when you fell in love with her???
> Best regards from Germany, rudolf



:rollhappy::rollhappy::rollhappy:


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## labskaus (Aug 7, 2008)

Wow, that spectacular! Measurements, please!

Next will be a bessae with overlapping petals oke:

Best wishes, Carsten


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## phrag guy (Aug 7, 2008)

That is great


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## Rick Barry (Aug 7, 2008)

Paphio,

That is absolutely incredible! Perhaps you should take it to judging so it can be screened out...

Thanks for sharing!
Rick


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## NYEric (Aug 7, 2008)

Rick Barry said:


> Paphio,
> 
> That is absolutely incredible! Perhaps you should take it to judging so it can be screened out...
> 
> ...



Wow, you must have a tough region! LOL!


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## Ernie (Aug 7, 2008)

Aside from the monster petals and dorsal , look at the pouch! How fat is that???!!! Most besseae have a very slender pouch. You definitely have a keeper there! Worth whatever you paid for sure. 

And easy on the judge bashing. 

-Ernie


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## Mrs. Paph (Aug 7, 2008)

Wow! Everyone's said it already I think, but I'll say again that that's an incredible flower!


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## Elena (Aug 7, 2008)

Gorgeous!


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## Jorch (Aug 7, 2008)

:drool::drool:

*totally speechless. Such great form and color!*


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## Phrag-Plus (Aug 7, 2008)

A real beauty!


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## SlipperFan (Aug 7, 2008)

Awesome, for sure!


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## rdlsreno (Aug 8, 2008)

That is a nice one!!! Is it a clone? I know that there are some phrags that can be cloned.


Ramon


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## JeanLux (Aug 8, 2008)

beautiful!!!! Jean


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## paphioland (Aug 8, 2008)

rdlsreno said:


> That is a nice one!!! Is it a clone? I know that there are some phrags that can be cloned.
> 
> 
> Ramon



Phrags as far as I am aware cannot be cloned with a reasonable cost except at the protocorm stage. You would have no idea what the flower looks like so to clone at this point makes no sense.


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## Roy (Aug 8, 2008)

Rick Barry said:


> Paphio,
> Perhaps you should take it to judging so it can be screened out...
> Rick



If the overall width of this flower is comperable to any other besseae that has been awarded and the judges reject it, they should all do a 2 year refresher course then give judging away.


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## Paul (Aug 8, 2008)

Wow!! really nice one!!


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## toddybear (Aug 8, 2008)

Incredible shape and colour!


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## Rick Barry (Aug 8, 2008)

Next will be a bessae with overlapping petals
Carsten

This just in...stay tuned for updates.







Phrag besseae 'Maximizer' from OZ

Regards,
Rick


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## NYEric (Aug 8, 2008)

OK, ok Yay besseae!!! [Now sneak me a few, hide them in your pockets and ship to NYC. :ninja: You want there to be some remnants left when the San Andreas fault makes Pheonix waterfront property, right? oke:]


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## Gilda (Aug 8, 2008)

:clap::drool:Stunning bloom & color !


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## Kevin (Aug 8, 2008)

Both are truly amazing! Just for fun, could someone post a pic of a 'regular' besseae to see the difference?


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## Jason Fischer (Aug 9, 2008)

paphioland said:


> all the modern OZ bess are 2n. Even the famous Jason Fischer 'Triplicate' is
> 2n. It is an understandable common misconception that it is 3n.



Are you sure on this? I was told he used 'Terry's Choice' to make it, which is a 4N. 

By the way, you should put Memoria Dick Clements on that besseae . Nice flower!


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## paphioland (Aug 9, 2008)

Jason Fischer said:


> Are you sure on this? I was told he used 'Terry's Choice' to make it, which is a 4N.
> 
> By the way, you should put Memoria Dick Clements on that besseae . Nice flower!



Hey Jason.

Who told you that it was 3N? I also thought this because of the name but that referred to the the flower count. 

You might be biased concerning cross ideas lol:wink:


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## aquacorps (Aug 9, 2008)

It would get a 77 HCC @ AOS judging.


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## SlipperFan (Aug 9, 2008)

aquacorps said:


> It would get a 77 HCC @ AOS judging.



From which judging center???


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## goldenrose (Aug 10, 2008)

aquacorps said:


> It would get a 77 HCC @ AOS judging.





SlipperFan said:


> From which judging center???



I share the same thought as Dot. How does one come up with this judging from a picture?  Please share with us how you arrived at this number.


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## paphioland (Aug 10, 2008)

goldenrose said:


> I share the same thought as Dot. How does one come up with this judging from a picture?  Please share with us how you arrived at this number.



I think the comment was a sarcastic one. When it comes to paphs and phrags, as a whole, there is much work that needs to be done in terms of awarding and judging. It is pretty unreliable. I personally place almost no value in an award except to look up the measurements of the flower because I can't trust if the award is "valid" or not. I am not dissing all the judges. Some know paphs well most do not. There are good ones out there but on a whole the system is lacking. There should prob be a group that just judges paphs and phrags. That would be ideal but prob not enough interest to make it convenient.


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## NYEric (Aug 10, 2008)

Doesn't the judging system make one knowledgeble in various types of orchids!?


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## Kevin (Aug 10, 2008)

True, but you have to give the judges credit - look at the thousands of species and hybrids they have to be 'experts' on! (orchids in general, not just slippers). I too think that there are many injustices done at the judging table, and it probably would be a good idea to have specialists in different Alliances, but not really practical.


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## Ernie (Aug 10, 2008)

The only way you all can help is to rush out to your local (or not so local, but closest) judging center and get involved. And not by taking a plant once in a while, but sitting in for a couple months, clerking some shows, then applying to be a student. 

-Ernie


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## GROWINHYDRO.COM (Aug 10, 2008)

wow!!!


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## rdlsreno (Aug 10, 2008)

Ernie said:


> The only way you all can help is to rush out to your local (or not so local, but closest) judging center and get involved. And not by taking a plant once in a while, but sitting in for a couple months, clerking some shows, then applying to be a student.
> 
> -Ernie



Exactly!!! Just like Dog show judges not only an expert on one breed but all breeds.


Ramon


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## Kevin (Aug 11, 2008)

Ernie said:


> The only way you all can help is to rush out to your local (or not so local, but closest) judging center and get involved. And not by taking a plant once in a while, but sitting in for a couple months, clerking some shows, then applying to be a student.
> 
> -Ernie



It might be nice to be a judge. I have clerked, and sat in on AOS judging many times, but apply to be a student? Not unless I win the lottery to be able to fly to Vancouver or Toronto once a month, plus judge at other shows. I hear AOS judging doesn't pay much either.oke:


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## Kevin (Aug 11, 2008)

rdlsreno said:


> Exactly!!! Just like Dog show judges not only an expert on one breed but all breeds.
> 
> 
> Ramon



True, if you are an AOS judge, you should be an expert on all genera, but that obviously isn't the case. On top of that, there is personal bias in judging which I don't think should be allowed. Judges should judge based on what they have learned only. Why do some plants get passed over by one judging team, then awarded by another? That doesn't seem fair.


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## Heather (Aug 11, 2008)

Kevin said:


> It might be nice to be a judge. I have clerked, and sat in on AOS judging many times, but apply to be a student? Not unless I win the lottery to be able to fly to Vancouver or Toronto once a month, plus judge at other shows. I hear AOS judging doesn't pay much either.oke:



Exactly! Someone else would have to pay my travel expenses. It's not exactly practical to become a judge if you're on a fixed budget.


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## NYEric (Aug 11, 2008)

A few times I was asked to enter the judging program, but at this point I'm too busy with other hobbies and activities. The program requires a lot of commitment in the form of travel, study, writing, and memory. Maybe when I stop playing competitive sports I'll join, but I do give credit to those who complete the judging requirements. And PS, numbers can't give one the whole picture about a flower or plant.


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## paphioland (Aug 11, 2008)

NYEric said:


> And PS, numbers can't give one the whole picture about a flower or plant.



That's my point. Sometimes the only accurate thing in an award description are the measurements which don't tell you all that much. Even those aren't right many times.


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## Ernie (Aug 11, 2008)

Yep, you gotta be rich or nuts or both to be a judge. I guess I'm nuts, because I certainly am not rich! Just happened to be lucky enough to find a great crew to carpool with, so I only pay 1/4-1/5 of the gas and 1/2-1/3 for hotels. If folks out there don't know, the pay is six figures!!! $000,000. When you do something good, they even consider a raise by adding a zero! It's impossible to force people to know "everything" on that salary, but damnit, we do a lot of training, and most of us try our best. 

Kevin, a good example of your point is Neo falcata. In Des Moines, we might have awarded some of the "plainer" ones if we just knew what made them special. We do what we can with the resources available to us. If we had a Japanese orchids nut in the crew, they coulda stepped up for the plant. On the flip side, I was judging out of region in a hot, dry part of the US not terribly overrun by slippers, and they were drooling all over an average at best Paph. liemianum (mis-entered as one of the other cochlos). I gave my summary last and pretty much killed its chances for an award. Felt terrible about it, but it was the correct thing to do. They schooled my butt on Tolumnias though! Anyway, it is a constant learning process. There's no single book to study. You just have to look at lots and lots and lots of plants. 

Anyway, we all agree that this besseae is AWESOME! 

-Ernie


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## Jason Fischer (Aug 11, 2008)

paphioland said:


> Hey Jason.
> 
> Who told you that it was 3N? I also thought this because of the name but that referred to the the flower count.
> 
> You might be biased concerning cross ideas lol:wink:



I might be confusing myself, but the JF that sold for mega bucks a few years back did not have a clonal name that I could see (and I forgot to ask) when I took a pic of it at Terry's. I had thought that was the 'Triplicate'. Whatever it was, Terry said it was made with 'Terry's Choice'. 

Hey, I'll buy flasks from you, just make that cross .


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## slippertalker (Aug 11, 2008)

Kevin said:


> True, if you are an AOS judge, you should be an expert on all genera, but that obviously isn't the case. On top of that, there is personal bias in judging which I don't think should be allowed. Judges should judge based on what they have learned only. Why do some plants get passed over by one judging team, then awarded by another? That doesn't seem fair.



AOS Judges are NOT expert on all genera, in fact that is an impossible task for any person. Most know a little about a lot and are expert in a few. Bias is an environmental situation, we are all products of our backgrounds and base of knowledge. Ethics are always a consideration.....

Judges can determine quality even if they are not expert in a certain genus by comparing prior awards and consulting with other judges that are experienced in those areas. With all of the data from Orchidwiz and AQ+, it is much easier to do this. The process is still an art based on stats and visual impact.

Generally plants that are passed over by one team are not considered by others. The nomination process screens plants to be considered by a team of judges, and whether they proceed to award a plant is opinion based on their experience. 

I find that people that aren't involved in the judging process have assumptions that are generally not true, and that they look at it as some sort of scary, obtuse rolling of the dice. The bottom line is that obvious quality always shines through, and marginal quality is where the debate lies.


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## paphioland (Aug 11, 2008)

slippertalker said:


> The bottom line is that obvious quality always shines through, and marginal quality is where the debate lies.




I have agreed with somethings you have said but this is absolutely not true.


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## Heather (Aug 11, 2008)

paphioland said:


> I have agreed with somethings you have said but this is absolutely not true.



And precisely what is your truth based on?


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Aug 11, 2008)

I think these photos prove to me what I have felt all along..........besseae as a species is still far superior to its hybrids...I've since lost interest in most phrag hybrids....but I'll always be thrilled with a good besseae! Eric


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## paphioland (Aug 11, 2008)

Heather said:


> And precisely what is your truth based on?



Numerous injustices I have seen committed and awards being given to plants that had no business being awarded. Look at the OZ roths for proof they were awarded haphazardly. Some of the best not awarded. I have seen an album bigger and better than any coloratum form be mismeasured and insulted.There are many more OUTRAGEOUS things I have witnessed with plants that are not my own and my own. Too many to list. I have never seen an american judge able to understand modern complex breeding. I don't bring plants for judging unless it is very convenient. Like I said I don't place all that much value in them. They change my idea of the value of a plant little maybe not at all because I judge the quality myself and see what I think it is worth.


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## paphioland (Aug 12, 2008)

Concerning being an AOS judge I would not be able to do it. I would be very biased toward paphs and phrags since I have little interest in other types of orchids. I have also no real desire to judge, my interest is in owning select plants and hybridizing. I judge plants all the time just not in the public's eye  . Being a judge is a tough thing and there are good ones out there. It is the system in my mind that needs retooling.


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## paphioland (Aug 12, 2008)

Jason Fischer said:


> I might be confusing myself, but the JF that sold for mega bucks a few years back did not have a clonal name that I could see (and I forgot to ask) when I took a pic of it at Terry's. I had thought that was the 'Triplicate'. Whatever it was, Terry said it was made with 'Terry's Choice'.
> 
> Hey, I'll buy flasks from you, just make that cross .



The plant that went to Fumi was 'Triplicate'. HMM. I have heard differently. Let me do some research.


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## Kevin (Aug 12, 2008)

paphioland said:


> Concerning being an AOS judge I would not be able to do it. I would be very biased toward paphs and phrags since I have little interest in other types of orchids. I have also no real desire to judge, my interest is in owning select plants and hybridizing. I judge plants all the time just not in the public's eye  . Being a judge is a tough thing and there are good ones out there. It is the system in my mind that needs retooling.



I agree! I would try to judge all plants equally, but to have the same genuine interest in all types of orchids would be difficult. The system does need work.


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## Kevin (Aug 12, 2008)

Does anyone have pics of the parents of either of these plants, and/or a pic of a 'regular' besseae to compare?


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## NYEric (Aug 12, 2008)

Ummm, jump [go] to search forum, type in besseae highlight phrag. photos, hit 'search'.


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## Kevin (Aug 12, 2008)

Thanks Eric, but what I was trying for, is to get a kind of split-screen, so we all could see a good comparison of what has been done in breeding of Phrag. besseae. But, I'll take what I can get.


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## slippertalker (Aug 15, 2008)

paphioland said:


> I have agreed with somethings you have said but this is absolutely not true.



Maybe you are looking at something differently than I am, but a superior flower is always obvious to most judges. I can easily discern AM or above quality at the first look. One thing for certain is that I, and most people have a biased eye towards their own plants. Some plants that I thought were no brainers have been overlooked while others that I have brought with no shot in my opinion have been awarded, and I'm a judge. Most of the time, the original opinion is a good one. 

Anticipating that your plant is definitely award quality is very dangerous, especially for people that don't judge orchids. Remember that they are being compared to a vast database of plants, and even though the plant might be very nice that doesn't mean it is award quality. 

Complex hybrid paphs have a high bar set for quality much as white phalaenopsis and standard cattleyas. The plant needs to be exceptional to receive an AM, and even though you have to grow a large number of seedlings to get to this point that doesn't mean that mediocre plants should be awarded.


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## paphioland (Aug 15, 2008)

slippertalker said:


> Maybe you are looking at something differently than I am, but a superior flower is always obvious to most judges. I can easily discern AM or above quality at the first look. One thing for certain is that I, and most people have a biased eye towards their own plants. Some plants that I thought were no brainers have been overlooked while others that I have brought with no shot in my opinion have been awarded, and I'm a judge. Most of the time, the original opinion is a good one.
> 
> Anticipating that your plant is definitely award quality is very dangerous, especially for people that don't judge orchids. Remember that they are being compared to a vast database of plants, and even though the plant might be very nice that doesn't mean it is award quality.
> 
> Complex hybrid paphs have a high bar set for quality much as white phalaenopsis and standard cattleyas. The plant needs to be exceptional to receive an AM, and even though you have to grow a large number of seedlings to get to this point that doesn't mean that mediocre plants should be awarded.



Like I said I don't bother bringing my plants for judging really. I will still respectfully but strongly disagree with you. I have seen decisions that make me cringe and they were not my plants. I have seen plants that might be the best of their kind in the world snubbed. I have also seen crap awarded.

To be candid, I think it is actually the opposite. I have seen more of many types of paphs than most judges have. They only see a small population of plants that are brought in for judging. They don't travel around the world and to top hybridizer's greenhouses to see what is going on. It reminds me of a conversation I had with a pathologist once. She told me that there are many pathologists who know the academic part incredibly well. There are only a few who can translate that into seeing the nuisances and patterns at the world renowned level. Judges are just humans. Just because you go through the training and *know* the info doesn't mean you can translate that into actually seeing the differences. Very few people have exceptional "eyes"


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## NYEric (Aug 15, 2008)

I have been to some AOS judgings and think mostly crap didn't get awarded and mostly exceptional stuff was. Of course there were some that I would have awarded that were passed. [The best Mem. Dick Clements flower I ever saw was passed at last GNYOS; probably because it only had one flower! ]


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## paphlady (Aug 23, 2008)

Looks like both Jason and Paphioland are correct. According to my research, 'Triplicate' is a double entendre. It's a triploid (made with 'Terry's Choice') and it had 3 flowers opened at the same time (very unusual for a Phrag Jason Fischer) the first time it bloomed.

In regards to AOS judging, I think ignorance can be forgiven, but jealousy and corruption should not be tolerated. Take a guess which happens more often!


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## Ernie (Aug 24, 2008)

paphlady said:


> In regards to AOS judging, I think ignorance can be forgiven, but jealousy and corruption should not be tolerated. Take a guess which happens more often!



Well said! 

-Ernie


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## paphioland (Jul 7, 2009)

Ernie said:


> Yep, you gotta be rich or nuts or both to be a judge. I guess I'm nuts, because I certainly am not rich! Just happened to be lucky enough to find a great crew to carpool with, so I only pay 1/4-1/5 of the gas and 1/2-1/3 for hotels. If folks out there don't know, the pay is six figures!!! $000,000. When you do something good, they even consider a raise by adding a zero! It's impossible to force people to know "everything" on that salary, but damnit, we do a lot of training, and most of us try our best.
> 
> Kevin, a good example of your point is Neo falcata. In Des Moines, we might have awarded some of the "plainer" ones if we just knew what made them special. We do what we can with the resources available to us. If we had a Japanese orchids nut in the crew, they coulda stepped up for the plant. On the flip side, I was judging out of region in a hot, dry part of the US not terribly overrun by slippers, and they were drooling all over an average at best Paph. liemianum (mis-entered as one of the other cochlos). I gave my summary last and pretty much killed its chances for an award. Felt terrible about it, but it was the correct thing to do. They schooled my butt on Tolumnias though! Anyway, it is a constant learning process. There's no single book to study. You just have to look at lots and lots and lots of plants.
> 
> ...



What is your opinion on having separate judges for each genera of orchids?

There could be a few central judges who are well trained. The bloom could be brought or cut and sent. The photos would then be looked at by a group of experts who have a conference call with the judge who saw the bloom. The measurements, picture and input from the judge who saw the bloom would be discussed? Any veto would kill the award but compromising would be allowed.


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## paphioland (Jul 7, 2009)

Ernie I know it seems like I am taking shots at judges after reading through this post but I actually think the system could be much better. I would hate to have a physician who does everything it would be impossible to do a good job. Imagine getting radiation treatment for you cancer from the same doctor that stitched you in the ED. It is horrifying actually. People always have interests and preferences. So why not let people judge on generas they are interested in? What is asked of judges is impossible.


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## e-spice (Jul 7, 2009)

Jason Fischer said:


> By the way, you should put Memoria Dick Clements on that besseae . Nice flower!



I agree. And make any extra you have available for slippertalk members to buy.

e-spice


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## slippertalker (Jul 7, 2009)

paphioland said:


> Ernie I know it seems like I am taking shots at judges after reading through this post but I actually think the system could be much better. I would hate to have a physician who does everything it would be impossible to do a good job. Imagine getting radiation treatment for you cancer from the same doctor that stitched you in the ED. It is horrifying actually. People always have interests and preferences. So why not let people judge on generas they are interested in? What is asked of judges is impossible.



Doing such a thing in practice would be virtually impossible. Plants often appear without such an expert in attendence at shows and regional judgings. They are operating off of experience and the documented evidence from AQ+ and Orchidwiz, along with other sources in the available libraries. Slipper orchids are usually pretty easy to judge, along with cattleya alliance and phalaenopsis they are common and there are judges that have good knowledge. The tough ones are obscure plants that are taxonomically obtuse
or hybrids that are marginally awardable.


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## Delego (Jul 7, 2009)

Very beautiful, can you tell us us the details of flower size.


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## Ernie (Jul 7, 2009)

paphioland said:


> What is your opinion on having separate judges for each genera of orchids?
> 
> There could be a few central judges who are well trained. The bloom could be brought or cut and sent. The photos would then be looked at by a group of experts who have a conference call with the judge who saw the bloom. The measurements, picture and input from the judge who saw the bloom would be discussed? Any veto would kill the award but compromising would be allowed.



Glad I checked back on this old thread. I think it's a good idea in theory, BUT not feasible OR desirable (!) IMO. Do we really need to go to such lengths??? It's a hobby for Pete's sake, not brain surgery. No one's life is at stake when we judge a plant. And part of the fun is taking time out of a hectic day, meeting actual human beings in person, and being able to touch, smell, hold, feel, weigh a plant in person. A conference call for judging would be like trying to describe a movie to someone- you get the general idea, but not the whole experience. I judge because I have a thirst for knowledge and like seeing orchids I can't grow and wouldn't otherwise see. I rarely take plants to judging- my scale of personal enjoyment isn't always in tune with AOS standards, and that's 300% okay!!! But I am trained to judge by AOS standards. We do the best we can with the resources available to us. Unfortunately, some folks can't leave their biases at the door. Well, that's just human and a conference call wouldn't screen that out either. Bottom line: they're flowers; enjoy them! 

-Ernie


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## NYEric (Jul 8, 2009)

Just flowers!?!?!? :viking:


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## Ernie (Jul 8, 2009)

NYEric said:


> Just flowers!?!?!? :viking:



You changed my words. Certainly not JUST flowers! 

-Ernie


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## Scott Ware (Jul 8, 2009)

Ernie said:


> You changed my words. Certainly not JUST flowers!
> 
> -Ernie



You have to keep an eye on Eric ALL the time.


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## NYEric (Jul 8, 2009)




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## Dupuy (Jul 11, 2009)

this one is incrediable! love the round petals


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