# New Mount- Spagnum/Epiweb Substitute???



## Cosmic Orchid (Feb 22, 2017)

I have either lost it or struck gold. :crazy: I was having a heck of a time locating a source of "Epiweb" in the US. Spent several days looking on web for "industrial abrasives/brown scotch brite/PET scour pads/Stainless steel polishes/ etc etc.

I understand the epiweb is a tough but dependable substrate. I have also read issues with Epiweb and difficulties in dividing plants once grown inside it (roots being cut through by the "webbing" while trying to cut or divide a piece), roots growing "through" to the layer beneath, causing damage, and also just the availability of it. I was dead-set on not buying the "black" because I just have a thing about aesthetics.

I spent days looking for something I could use to line the orchidarium cabinet I am building, and found a supplier in Spain willing to sell actual Epiweb. But it just rang up over the $200. mark and I just kept looking.

After I "terrariumed to death" my boyfriend:snore:, he sarcastically suggested using a brillo pad to mount the orchids. Immediately a lightbulb went off in my head-- I have a hand-crocheted synthetic sponge that has been through many cycles in the dishwasher that is open and airy, and would dry out in about an hour(?), and ... was bright red and purple.

So a quick ebay search had me picking my jaw up off the floor when I discovered this, made of synthetic scrubby yarn- not hemp, not cotton, not organic at all!!:


I contacted the artist and commissioned a set of rectangles, with little pockets I might be able to set the orchids inside. They could be folded/reshaped as needed. It's all just an experiment but I died because they look so organic and spagnum-mossy!!
Keeping my fingers crossed about this adventure. I just paid for them so I do not even have them yet... 


Closeup of the slightly-softer-than-a-metal-polishing-pad-:


----------



## Lanmark (Feb 23, 2017)

Most likely made from 100% polyester...could be a great discovery on your part. A bit of research reveals the possibility of degradation over time by Cyanobacteria and Archaea though I don't know much about this nor how long it would take. It will be interesting to hear of your experiences with using this product. I wonder how stiff/sturdy these plaques will end up being.

Red Heart makes a product called Scrubby Yarn which is probably what your artist is using. There are also some Korean scrubber yarn/susemi yarn products available on Etsy. One is made by Samsung Textiles and is beige in color and another brand I've seen is Pearl. I'm tempted to buy some of this stuff to see how it works in place of or in conjunction with long fiber NZ sphagnum moss for mounding Neos.


----------



## Ray (Feb 23, 2017)

I wouldn't worry about micro-degradation, as that would take a very long time. The one question that comes to mind is absorption. The polyester itself absorbs very little, but depending upon the density of the strands, the fiber structure might be great.

Time for an experiment!


----------



## Linus_Cello (Feb 23, 2017)

What are you planning to grow? Masdevallias/pleurathallids? Slippers?


----------



## NYEric (Feb 23, 2017)

Interesting. I have a plant I was supposed to mount on epiweb and have just been too lazy.  Keep us posted.


----------



## Ray (Feb 23, 2017)

Redheart Scrubby Yarn (almond) on order. Will be used in a pot for a phalaenopsis. - assuming it has the texture I am anticipating.


----------



## Cosmic Orchid (Feb 23, 2017)

I just bought out my local Joann's crafts on a president's day sale for the almond scrubby yarn at 3.36 a pop (they are small...). The fuzzy yarn in tree-colors is also suspiciously similar to the looks of SYNTHIC. Time to break out the old crochet hooks. I have a terrarium to fill! Never thought I would be "knitting a terrarium" 





I have a couple of candidates: Masdevallia nidifica and Deimos, and Promenaea stapeloides. Also have a small angraegum and bulbos with potential.


----------



## Lanmark (Feb 24, 2017)

I think I need to visit JoAnn Fabrics today. I'd like to try this on my Neos.


----------



## MattWoelfsen (Feb 25, 2017)

Lanmark said:


> I think I need to visit JoAnn Fabrics today. I'd like to try this on my Neos.




Glenn Lehr used to finish his Sphagnum moss mounded Furan with a cotton yarn that looked like the moss. It kept the moss very tidy and in the dome shape. This looks like that yarn. I'm going to Joann's Fabrics and get that stuff too. I'm getting ready to re-pot some of my Furan.


----------



## myxodex (Feb 28, 2017)

Good find and thanks for sharing. 

Like Lanmark and MattWoelfsen, I'm very curious about this for neo mounting. Long strand sphag is not always available, when it is, it's expensive and mounting neos without it is frustrating.

The Red Heart scrubby yarn on this side of the pond is several times the price you pay in the US and I cannot get the almond, only the bright colours. There is a local scrubby yarn that is cheaper, but not available in natural colours and the best I can get is white which I might soak in humic acid and hopefully it stains a bit ?

@ Lanmark and Matt, I'd be grateful if you report back on your experiences if you try this for neo mounting. I'm really hoping this is a practical substitute for long fiber sphag.


----------



## Ray (Feb 28, 2017)

I got in the scrubby yearn yesterday. Looks like I'll really have to loosen it up a bit, and possibly add a second material to keep it open and not pack down too tightly.

The stuff is actually manufactured in Turkey, by the way.


----------



## Lanmark (Feb 28, 2017)

I bought some Red Heart Scrubby yarn in almond color a couple of days ago. I haven't tried it yet, but my first impression just looking at it and feeling it is that it appears very similar to long fiber NZ sphagnum moss. I happen to think it will hold water for a shorter period of time than the moss, but I must also qualify this statement with the fact that I don't use a lot of moss when I mound my Neos. I like to use the black plastic basket-weave domes which are made specifically to fit the Japanese black plastic Neo pots. I generally wrap a thin layer of moss over/around the dome, place the roots over that and then secure the plant in place with another thin layer of moss. The dome provides an ample hollow center and the Neo pots themselves have large slots and a big hole in the bottom. I am able to give my plants frequent wet/dry cycles in this manner. I will be trying the yarn soon and will report back on my experiences.


----------



## myxodex (Feb 28, 2017)

Lanmark said:


> I bought some Red Heart Scrubby yarn in almond color a couple of days ago. I haven't tried it yet, but my first impression just looking at it and feeling it is that it appears very similar to long fiber NZ sphagnum moss. I happen to think it will hold water for a shorter period of time than the moss, but I must also qualify this statement with the fact that I don't use a lot of moss when I mound my Neos. I like to use the black plastic basket-weave domes which are made specifically to fit the Japanese black plastic Neo pots. I generally wrap a thin layer of moss over/around the dome, place the roots over that and then secure the plant in place with another thin layer of moss. The dome provides an ample hollow center and the Neo pots themselves have large slots and a big hole in the bottom. I am able to give my plants frequent wet/dry cycles in this manner. I will be trying the yarn soon and will report back on my experiences.



I buy gutter mesh for making the hole in the centre, it's cheap. This stuff can be cut to size with a pair of scissors. I simply roll it into a tube it so that it just overlaps by a couple of cm (approx 1 inch), hold it in the pot to get the height I need and cut to length. Holding the tube, so that it doesn't unroll, I then wrap the sphag around that, add a pad of sphag over the hole at the top and then wrap the plant roots over that. A small downside to this is I get the odd root growing through the mesh and getting entangled with it, which means a bit of fiddling when repotting, but the mesh is easily cut free if necessary, and only about 1 in 10 of my plants get entangled roots.

I only intend to try scrubby yarn for finishing off, so for replacing the long strand sphag for the final wrapping step that holds the shape of the mound.

I've just checked the price of New Zealand sphagnum moss from the UK distributor - 1kg premium grade AAG costs £60 (approx $74) . This isn't actually long strand grade, it just contains a fraction of longer strands that I sort out and put aside for the final wrapping of the mound. For a consumable thats expensive (for me anyway) and 1 Kg is the smallest amount that they sell of this grade. I'm thinking of trying out the Peruvian moss as it's much cheaper.


----------



## Lanmark (Feb 28, 2017)

I've thought of using gutter mesh, too, but I never have. I like the Japanese domes because the holes are large, and I never have problems disentangling my plants from them.

I think this scrubby yarn would make a fine finishing wrap. I have used the finishing string Matt was referring to in a previous post, and I do like that product as well.

Also available in Japan, but I have yet to find a supplier in USA, are thick-walled, pre-formed NZ sphagnum cones for potting Neos. I've used these in the past in conjunction with the previously mentioned finishing string, and due to the way the moss is so tightly compressed in these pre-formed cones, they don't hold nearly as much water as the loose strands do. There's much less chance of rotting the roots with these pre-made moss cones. I really like this product and would purchase it regularly if made available in USA. It's fast, easy, long-lasting and very plant-friendly.


----------



## bigleaf (Feb 28, 2017)

This is an exciting project. Can't wait to read more or see the results.


----------



## gonewild (Feb 28, 2017)

myxodex said:


> I'm thinking of trying out the Peruvian moss as it's much cheaper.



The Peruvian is excellent quality moss. Orchids love it. Be aware that it is a different species than the NZ. It actually is collected by hand off of rocks and trees in the mountains. It's the moss that orchids actually grow in.
The export grade is very clean and long but there are also lower grades used domestically so make sure you get the high quality.


----------



## Ray (Feb 28, 2017)

I potted up a Phalaenopsis venustum today, and watered the hell out of it under the spray from the kitchen sink.

I did invert a small mesh pot in the bottom of the pot first, and while the yarn did seem to compress a bit under the water, it drained readily, leaving the strands moist without holding much water in-between.

"Promising" is how I'll characterize it right now.


----------



## Lanmark (Mar 11, 2017)

So I've tried the Red Heart Scrubby Yarn for wrapping/mounding the roots of a Neo. So far so good. It looks really nice too. It wets easily but doesn't hold a lot of moisture. The moisture remains for a day or so and then I wet it again. This first plant I tried it on is very tiny -- Aoshinju -- and I used a tiny net pot with large openings (I modified it) in the center to keep it hollow. The plant is growing in a well-ventilated, plastic Neo-type pot. I think next I will try using this yarn on a larger plant.


----------



## MattWoelfsen (Mar 16, 2017)

Is it possible to have a picture of your Aoshinju, dry and wet? Thank you.


----------



## Lanmark (Mar 16, 2017)

Sure...there's really not a noticeable difference. The fibers themselves don't hold any moisture. Only the texture holds the moisture. It dries very quickly, but I find it does hold a nice, very light level of dampness for most of the day.

Dry:





Wet:


----------



## MattWoelfsen (Mar 16, 2017)

That looks very good Lanmark. Very nice. From these photos the yarn does not detract from the moss mound. If I didn't know better, the yarn does look like the moss.


----------



## Lanmark (Mar 16, 2017)

Yes, Matt, there is no moss here. It's mounded in 100% Red Heart Scrubby Yarn with a hollow center.


----------



## MattWoelfsen (Mar 17, 2017)

Lanmark said:


> Yes, Matt, there is no moss here. It's mounded in 100% Red Heart Scrubby Yarn with a hollow center.





That is remarkable Lanmark, I wasn't looking for this fiber to replace sphagnum moss completely. But it is certainly cheaper than 5A New Zealand Sphagnum moss! Have you noticed any signs of algae? Can you tell if there are any fertilizer residue that can't be flushed?

Thank you for your information.


----------



## Ray (Mar 17, 2017)

Matt, I have a Phalaenopsis venosa that I've had in the yarn for a few weeks now. So far, so good, with no signs of any issues.

Even if I flood the hell out of it, top-down, and it compresses the stuff, it springs back up in a day.

The stuff is available wholesale, but it's a $1000 minimum order, and I'm not up to make such an experimental investment at the moment.


----------



## Lanmark (Mar 17, 2017)

Good to know, Ray.

It's really too soon to tell if I will have problems with it, Matt, but so far everything seems really good. I'm very pleased with it at this point.


----------



## MattWoelfsen (Mar 17, 2017)

Ray said:


> Matt, I have a Phalaenopsis venosa that I've had in the yarn for a few weeks now. So far, so good, with no signs of any issues.
> 
> Even if I flood the hell out of it, top-down, and it compresses the stuff, it springs back up in a day.
> 
> The stuff is available wholesale, but it's a $1000 minimum order, and I'm not up to make such an experimental investment at the moment.





Yikes! $1000! No wonder a skein of this fiber costs $6.99 retail. I have found this locally @ Joann's. I have several small Furan that needs to be repotted. So I'll try this product on those plants. Thank you Ray.


----------



## MattWoelfsen (Mar 17, 2017)

Lanmark said:


> Good to know, Ray.
> 
> It's really too soon to tell if I will have problems with it, Matt, but so far everything seems really good. I'm very pleased with it at this point.




Your observation is encouraging. I'm going to try this product on some of my Furan.


----------



## Lanmark (Mar 24, 2017)

One thing I am starting to notice about the Scrubby Yarn which I don't like is that I am starting to catch a whiff of sour dishrag odor coming from the mounds I've made of it. It's not strong so far. I can only smell it up close. Another way to describe the odor -- and this is a bit gross -- is that metallic, slightly sour odor which is present when emptying the spit valve on a brass instrument like a trumpet or cornet. I don't know if this will continue to get stronger, or if there is anything I can do to get rid of it.


----------



## gonewild (Mar 24, 2017)

The odor is likely from bacteria growth. Basically if bacteria produce an unpleasant odor there is something toxic going on.


----------



## MattWoelfsen (Mar 24, 2017)

Lanmark said:


> One thing I am starting to notice about the Scrubby Yarn which I don't like is that I am starting to catch a whiff of sour dishrag odor coming from the mounds I've made of it. It's not strong so far. I can only smell it up close. Another way to describe the odor -- and this is a bit gross -- is that metallic, slightly sour odor which is present when emptying the spit valve on a brass instrument like a trumpet or cornet. I don't know if this will continue to get stronger, or if there is anything I can do to get rid of it.




Interesting development. If it is something like bacteria, perhaps Physan 20? I am familiar with that scent, sometimes really old, green, decayed sphagnum moss has that dish rag scent. I unwrap the moss and start new.

I thought that polyester doesn't decay? As suggested by gonewild, maybe some organic (decaying roots?) is causing this scent? 

My scrubby yarn has been ordered but hasn't yet arrived. I can't wait for this yarn to arrive so that I can try this material on my Furan.


----------



## Lanmark (Mar 24, 2017)

I unwrapped it this evening. None of the roots are decaying. They all look perfectly healthy and happy, but the yarn sure does stink. It's a sharp, metallic, slightly sour scent but not like rot. The yarn doesn't seem to be rotting. It appears no different and still has all of its strength.


----------



## Happypaphy7 (Mar 24, 2017)

When you leave dish cloth (synthetic material) damp, it stinks also. lol


----------



## Lanmark (Mar 25, 2017)

Yes, that is what it smells like, a stinky dish cloth. However, it does dry out completely after several hours, but I think these repeated wet periods have caused the odor. Now I just wonder if it will continue to get worse or will it abate after a while? I also have to figure out whether or not it is doing anything harmful to my plant. I'm curious to hear what Ray's experience has been with his Phal which he has potted in this material.


----------



## Ray (Mar 25, 2017)

I just stuck my nose into it, and while there is a faint smell, that's petty much what you have to do to detect it.


----------



## gonewild (Mar 25, 2017)

Without any natural chemicals on the surface of, or leaching from the substrate as a buffer in the root zone there is a potential of a huge pH shift. Bacteria may grow without causing decomposition of the plastic so don't rely on not seeing decay as a guarantee. Or the plastic may be leaching chemicals that feed some species of bacteria. 
Bad smell may be just what the plant likes! :rollhappy:


----------



## MattWoelfsen (Mar 25, 2017)

Lanmark, are you adding any fertilizer or any other chemicals to the water?

In anticipation for my re-potting, I bought these very minimalist pots. In addition, I have these smaller net pots, that I will use to sit the plant on inside the larger pot. Hopefully that will provide maximum air flow.


----------



## gonewild (Mar 25, 2017)

Also should add about bacteria and odor.... the odor could be produced by Nitrifying bacteria. That may be a positive event for plant growth even if it is unpleasant to smell. But as I mentioned before it may cause undesirable pH changes. Will Neos like a non acidic pH?


----------



## Lanmark (Mar 25, 2017)

Most of the time I water with distilled or sometimes RO water, but about once per week I wet them with a dilute fertilizer solution (MSU). I'm wondering if it would be better to include a few strands of NZ sphagnum moss with the yarn in order to incorporate some organic material into the mix. I think I will try this. I have a rather sensitive nose, so I must concede that the odor I am currently noticing isn't really that strong, but I can definitely smell it.

I use similar baskets, Matt, though mine aren't as floppy as yours. I already tried the ones you are showing. Then I switched to another, sturdier style of basket which I modify before using. It's a pain in the butt, but I'm happy with the results.


----------



## gonewild (Mar 25, 2017)

Lanmark said:


> I have a rather sensitive nose, so I must concede that the odor I am currently noticing isn't really that strong, but I can definitely smell it.



Just put a Clove in it and pretend it smells good.


----------



## Lanmark (Mar 26, 2017)

I wonder if adding a product such as Inocucor or Hydroguard to my water would make a difference.


----------



## MattWoelfsen (Mar 26, 2017)

I have not used either product. Perhaps Ray Barkalow can opine? Isn't Inocucor a systemic anti-pesticide? It seems to cover quite a lot of maladies.


----------



## Lanmark (Mar 26, 2017)

Both products are live microbial agents which combat disease-causing fungi.

I asked Ray. He said he was going to try the Inocucor on the Phal he has planted in the Scrubby Yarn to see what the results would be.


----------



## Happypaphy7 (Mar 26, 2017)

Faul smelling stuff isn't pathogenic, I don't think. They are obviously living on dead material.


----------



## gonewild (Mar 26, 2017)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Faul smelling stuff isn't pathogenic, I don't think.



Keep thinking. Maybe not pathogenic but on the other hand maybe toxic or chemically detrimental to plant growth. 
But then again maybe pathogenic, as smelled with Erwina.


----------



## Ray (Apr 4, 2017)

FWIW, the "musty dishrag" odor has disappeared from my phalaenopsis pot, even before treating it with the Inocucor product, and it has not returned.


----------



## naoki (Apr 4, 2017)

Ray and Mark, doesn't it dry out kind of really quick? I used the fat polyester yarn (shown in the photo of message #7 in this thread), which is different from Mark's around the time Syntec came out. There was a paper who tested "Synthetic moss" with Phalaenopsis to understand the acidification of media. I contacted the Chinese researchers, and tried to obtain the material, but it was a dead-end. Then I found the thick yarn at Jo-ann's. I wasn't paying too much attention, and it was drying way too fast, so I wasn't successful with Phalaenopsis pulcherrima. But the low water holding capacity could be good for orchids which should get dried quicker. After seeing Matt's and Mark's comments here, I used it as the "top moss" for some Neofinetia (the base, Koke-dai, is still real sphagnum moss).


----------



## Lanmark (Apr 4, 2017)

It does dry out very quickly, naoki, but this is what I like about it. I have always had the best success with my Neos when they get frequent wet/dry cycles. I have rotted more roots than I care to think about in moss mounds (even hollow ones) which stay damp for days at a time as they ever-so-slowly dry until the next watering cycle.

I have had great success using the plastic Neo domes covered with only a *very* thin layer of moss over the roots. I have also had great success with growing my Neos in baskets with no media whatsoever.

This yarn dries quickly, yet it does hold moisture for a day...just not too much.

Ray, I have also noticed that the stale, musty odor in my yarn mounds has now started to subside. I guess it was just a temporary thing. The plants in the yarn mounds seem to be doing just fine.


----------

