# Please remove me as a member of this forum



## Greenthings (Feb 27, 2007)

You have a lot of good people on this forum.

Many want to hear the Pk saga truth, others do not.

I do not have my time to waste on arguing with those who tell fairy tales
and do not like to hear the truth. 

Time will tell, you do not need me. 

I will keep on corresponding privately with a few indiviual members on this forum. 

I will keep on posting the truth, both on the OGD forum and on my own website, when once again it needs to be told to offset the lies that keep on being repeated.

Farewell my friends,

Peter


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## PHRAG (Feb 27, 2007)

Peter, I don't get it. Why do you feel like we are trying to keep some truth hidden? I think it is sad that you keep accusing this forum and the people on it of hiding the truth.

I am sick of this nonsense. If you have some proof that "lies" are being told about the importation of Pk, post it. If not, goodbye. Simple as that.


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## Greenthings (Feb 27, 2007)

PHRAG said:


> Peter, I don't get it. Why do you feel like we are trying to keep some truth hidden? I think it is sad that you keep accusing this forum and the people on it of hiding the truth.
> 
> I am sick of this nonsense. If you have some proof that "lies" are being told about the importation of Pk, post it. If not, goodbye. Simple as that.




This is a new thread , why do you think it is in response to your post in another thread?
If I had wanted to respond to your post I would have done it in that thread.

I have nothing but admiration for Heather who handled the stupid affair, due to a moderator who has no business being one, with class.

What I am talking about is some members of ST, who are the mouthpiece for non-members' fairy tales an lies. 

Yes all the best to you too.
Peter


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## PHRAG (Feb 27, 2007)

Peter, 

Who is this "mouthpiece" for lies that you speak of? If you can't say exactly what you mean, why should any of us believe a word you say? Stop making it sound like there is some conspiracy to silence the truth on this board.

I am going to throw down the gauntlet Peter. 

I am so sure that this board is against censorship of any kind, I challenge you to prove me wrong. Post the whole truth about the recent kovachii mess. Tell us why you think something is being hidden. Break it wide open Peter. Show us proof that someone did something illegal and let's get Fish and Wildlife involved. 

Or are you all about drama, and not really about truth?


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## PHRAG (Feb 27, 2007)

You are not being removed as a member Peter. I expect you to finish what you started. You obviously believe that there is something we all need to know about the kovachii saga, so we are all waiting anxiously for you to fill us in.


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## Greenthings (Feb 27, 2007)

PHRAG said:


> You are not being removed as a member Peter. I expect you to finish what you started. You obviously believe that there is something we all need to know about the kovachii saga, so we are all waiting anxiously for you to fill us in.





Hi Phrag,

It will do no one any good to name names, and that is what I would have to do. Time will tell the truth. I will stay on as a member of this forum. I will probably post again. All I want the ST members to do is look at all sides of the PK saga critically and not blindly accept or reject any post based on who the poster is.

I hope we can leave it at this. As I said, Time Will Tell.

Peter


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## Heather (Feb 27, 2007)

Greenthings said:


> All I want the ST members to do is look at all sides of the PK saga critically and not blindly accept or reject any post based on who the poster is.
> 
> Peter



Well, I for one have from the start and will continue to do so, but without dialog we will never get there.


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## SlipperFan (Feb 27, 2007)

Heather said:


> Well, I for one have from the start and will continue to do so, but without dialog we will never get there.


Right on, Heather!!!


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Feb 27, 2007)

Your wish is my command....

Just kidding of course, which brings me to an old anecdote I find quite appropriate:

Patient: Doc, it hurts when I lift my arm like this.
Doctor: Then don't lift your arm like that.

Basically, view controversal threads like a campfire. If you see a thread going south and it bothers you, don't throw another log on it to keep it going. If everyone followed this advice, there would be no need for visible moderators/admins like you said earlier.

Jon


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Feb 27, 2007)

I for one have found the Pk info to be an astoundingly informative series of threads....and as can be expected, its raised some hackles. Peter, I hope you continue to post on this issue...i have always appreciated your posts on OGD and your knowledge...and as I have said in another post, this is really one of the more civilised forums out there....we all stand to benefit from these discussions....Take care, Eric


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## PHRAG (Feb 27, 2007)

Am I the only one who DOESN'T respect what Peter has done here? He came in, claiming he knows the names and events that transpired leading up to some plants being sold and falsly represented as Phrag. kovachii. All he has done is create an atmosphere of pointless drama, refusing to just say what he claims is the truth, providing absolutely no proof backing up anything he says and we are supposed to appreciate that? 

I think it's obvious he is a vendor, jealous of others who are attempting to market the same plants he is (even though he is in a different market entirely) and intends to make people believe he is an inside player so he can better market his plants. 

While I DO NOT agree with many of the actions of those involved with bringing Pk to market, I appreciate what you are doing much less Peter.

I am just sick to death of orchid "experts" coming in here and acting like their advanced level of knowledge is worthy of our admiration, and then acting like spoiled rotten brats who need a good spanking. Birk, Braem, Croezen. Looks like we have a hat trick.


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## gonewild (Feb 28, 2007)

PHRAG said:


> Am I the only one who DOESN'T respect what Peter has done here? He came in, claiming he knows the names and events that transpired leading up to some plants being sold and falsly represented as Phrag. kovachii. All he has done is create an atmosphere of pointless drama, refusing to just say what he claims is the truth, providing absolutely no proof backing up anything he says and we are supposed to appreciate that?
> 
> I think it's obvious he is a vendor, jealous of others who are attempting to market the same plants he is (even though he is in a different market entirely) and intends to make people believe he is an inside player so he can better market his plants.
> 
> ...



John,

I have no idea what Peter's reasons are for not giving names but....

There are reasons not to name names of persons who provide information. I can tell you for certain that Peru is a "Big Boys" country. Little boys don't rat out Big boys. It is a big jungle out there and sometimes people don't come home for dinner, or breakfast or ever. Peru ain't Kansas. Well, maybe it is somewhat like Dodge City, but before Matt Dillon rode into town.

I understand and respect Peter's lack of willingness to name names.


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## PHRAG (Feb 28, 2007)

Lance, are you saying that by purchasing orchids from Peruvian vendors that we could be supporting people who murder their competition?

In between this, orchid psychos, and the near extinction of orchid species from over collecting, I can't think of any better reasons to take up a different hobby.

You don't hear much about quilters sewing each other to death.


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## PHRAG (Feb 28, 2007)

Alternatively, in the history of whistle blowing, the whistle blower usually has enough courage to finish the job they start. And they also don't sell the same product as the people they attempt to blow the whistle on.


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## Candace (Feb 28, 2007)

> You don't hear much about quilters sewing each other to death



No deaths that I know about, but since I'm a quilter I can offer instances of stitches to deep rotary cutter blades and infections due to finger stabbings. Every hobby has it's risks...and personalities.


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## PHRAG (Feb 28, 2007)

Candace said:


> Every hobby has it's risks...and personalities.



Candace, are you saying quilters are crazy? Because I know for a fact orchid growers are nutjobs (myself included). I mean, have you ever heard two quilter's bickering over illegal thread? When a new quilt hoop is invented, do people go out and collect them all so others can't get them first? When you get a quilt awarded, do you cut it up and charge hundreds for the privelege to own a piece of it?

Just wondering.


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## gonewild (Feb 28, 2007)

PHRAG said:


> Lance, are you saying that by purchasing orchids from Peruvian vendors that we could be supporting people who murder their competition?
> 
> In between this, orchid psychos, and the near extinction of orchid species from over collecting, I can't think of any better reasons to take up a different hobby.
> 
> You don't hear much about quilters sewing each other to death.



This is hard to respond to, I could do much better in person.

No. I did not say anything about orchids. Nor did I say anything about orchid vendors. What I said has nothing to do with the morality of the orchid hobby.
I don't mean to paint Peru as a lawless dangerous place but the reality of it is that it is a different culture, especially when it comes to business and money. I could give you many examples but I think this forum is not the place.

I'm not going to try to defend Peter, he needs to do that himself. I am only saying how life is in the rest of the world.

I don't know where Peter gets his information he says he has. But I do know whoever told him would have asked not to have their name revealed. In the USA news reporters don't reveal their confidential sources. At times they have and people have been murdered as a result, and in the USA.

If you were Peter would you reveal your informants name if you believed it might result in harm to he or his family?

But you do point out a good point when you buy orchids for your hobby you should know the credibility of the source. Some sources are good and some are not.

I do know of a man in Peru who was killed for revealing an illegal exporter ornamental fish. The same fish you can buy in any pet shop in the USA.

I bet there are quilters who use thread from some endangered species that someone would kill for. Gotta have that natural orange and black thread!

It is not the hobby. It is not the subject. It is human nature.
It is our responsibility to make correct choices. It is not a correct choice to make no choice.


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## Greenthings (Feb 28, 2007)

PHRAG said:


> Am I the only one who DOESN'T respect what Peter has done here? He came in, claiming he knows the names and events that transpired leading up to some plants being sold and falsly represented as Phrag. kovachii. All he has done is create an atmosphere of pointless drama, refusing to just say what he claims is the truth, providing absolutely no proof backing up anything he says and we are supposed to appreciate that?
> 
> I think it's obvious he is a vendor, jealous of others who are attempting to market the same plants he is (even though he is in a different market entirely) and intends to make people believe he is an inside player so he can better market his plants.



I was not going to continue this thread and I have kept quiet, until now.

I can not sit back and let you get away making up lies to suit your imagined
popularity.

As an administrator I expect you to speak the truth and be equally fair 
to all members of this forum. The fact is that you have turned the thread into a personal attack on me. I suppose to force me into replying, so you can keep on
riding that high horse you seem to be on. Grow up Phrag. and take a listen!

Referring to me, you write:
“He came in, claiming he knows the names and events that transpired leading up to some plants being sold and falsly represented as Phrag. kovachii.”

This is a deliberate lie!!!!!!!

Read Post # 1 in the thread Peruflora Pk flask fiasco, on this forum, still in view in which I state:

“It was predicted in 2005 and proven to be correct in 2007 that some of the flasks numbered 751 through 758 would not contain Pk species, but something else. It was rumored that illegal non-Pk seeds were sold as Pk seeds to Peruflora.”


I clearly indicated in my post that my prediction was based on rumours. Not only was I totally honest I was totally correct, two years ago. 

You state:
“I think it's obvious he is a vendor, jealous of others who are attempting to market the same plants he is (even though he is in a different market entirely) and intends to make people believe he is an inside player so he can better market his plants.”

Again this is fabricated nonsense. Do your homework before you shoot from the lip!
I am the exclusive vendor of CJM’s true Pk seedlings for Canada; the rest of the world is done by Piping Rock’s I have no competition in Canada. Peruflora has no market in Canada.
You have learned to speak, now learn to listen and get the facts.

I am an inside player and I have presented my well received Pk saga lecture all over the USA and Canada. Perhaps you should attend the next one in your area.

Finally, the most respected victim of the Perufora flask fiasco, will totally disagree with your posted nonsense about me. 

In fact, he has been recommending me as a Pg Saga expert and speaker to every person who has contacted him since early last year, telling them that he has heard nothing but great things about me and my Pk saga program.

His name: Chuck Acker. 

Now before you should from the lip again, give Chuck a call and find out that I speak the truth. As you grow up, perhaps some day you will learn it too.


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## Candace (Feb 28, 2007)

> Candace, are you saying quilters are crazy? Because I know for a fact orchid growers are nutjobs (myself included). I mean, have you ever heard two quilter's bickering over illegal thread? When a new quilt hoop is invented, do people go out and collect them all so others can't get them first? When you get a quilt awarded, do you cut it up and charge hundreds for the privelege to own a piece of it?
> 
> Just wondering.




Oh, quilters can be crazy alright, but in a different way. No illegal collections of fabric(unless they come from Cuba!) It's kind of weird actually. We have the purists(similar to orchid species collectors) that only do hand quilting and those that only do machine quilting. Many have closets full of fabrics sorted by color, pattern, maker. It can be addicting for some. Many people buy all this fabric and then never use it, just sit there and gaze at it...

But, you're right, I don't think quilters come close to orchid growers on the nutso meter. We're way, way over the top!


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## PHRAG (Feb 28, 2007)

Greenthings said:


> I can not sit back and let you get away making up lies to suit your imagined
> popularity.


 


Greenthings said:


> As an administrator I expect you to speak the truth and be equally fair
> to all members of this forum.





Greenthings said:


> Referring to me, you write:
> “He came in, claiming he knows the names and events that transpired leading up to some plants being sold and falsly represented as Phrag. kovachii.”
> 
> This is a deliberate lie!!!!!!!
> ...




Peter,

I bring your attention to this direct quote *written by you* posted in the "Pk fiasco" thread.



Greenthings said:


> Please don't give me this libel crap, I know what I say and I have lots of
> proof to back up what I say, even about that which I chose to call rumours.



So you say all of your information was based upon rumour, but then you state that you have plenty of proof to back up everything you say regarding the "rumours" that started two years ago about "illegal" kovachii breeding. Again, these are your words.

So which is it Peter? You either have some real, hard data which you refuse to provide...or...you are making everything up based on some rumours, and stroking your own ego for the sake of trying to build your name up.

You call me a liar. So far, it seems like I am the only one demanding any truth here.

SHOW US PROOF! Put up or shut up Peter.


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## Whitecat8 (Mar 1, 2007)

If a member of this forum wants to leave, they can do so without anyone knowing - right? There's no need to start a thread entitled, "Please remove me from this forum" unless they want to start something, which the person demonstrates in the first post by repeating how wrong people are not to agree with them.

I wonder how sincere a person is if, a couple of posts later, they say they're staying. If you want to leave a forum, you leave. If you don't, you don't. My conclusion is that this person doesn't want to leave but rather wants to draw attention - once again - to themselves, their proclaimed insider information, and their subsequent importance. 

If a person of integrity has information that cannot be shared, they don't hint at it, taunt people with it, run down others based on it, accuse still others of refusing to see the "truth" because of it, proclaim that one day, people will see it - this insider info that they can't reveal and which might be based on rumors anyway - only you're dead wrong/misguided/worse to express any doubts about their "truth" because even though it's based on rumors - or not - they can't reveal it because it's confidential and puts them in too much danger.

Oh, drama. Oh, intrigue. Oh, intense attention through negativity.

A person of integrity says nothing about having confidential info and behaves as a constructive member of the group.

Does this person know how to get attention by being positive and supportive of others, by acknowledging there are multiple truths in any situation, that life is ambiguous, that they might be mistaken, that human nature is complex, that it's difficult or impossible to know the absolute, THIS IS RIGHT AND ALL ELSE IS WRONG kind of truth?

Does this person understand that, as a knowledgable orchid person deeply involved with Pk, they have a significant opportunity to serve as a leader, responding graciously in a complex situation packed with emotion?

It's not what comes into our lives - questions, contradictions, and ambiguity about Pk, in this case - it's what we do with it that matters. We have no choice about what has or hasn't happened w/ Pk. We have absolute choice about how we treat others through the unfolding.


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## PHRAG (Mar 1, 2007)

Whitecat,

Well said, with more grace and intelligence than I could muster in my posts. I should just tell you what I am thinking and let you post for me in the future.

Though, I think we can all stop holding our breath waiting for this situation to come to a resolution.


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## Greenthings (Mar 2, 2007)

This e-mail is not aimed at any one person in particular, but simply meant to explain a few
things.

I have read all kind of assumptions being made in this thread; I have no intention to address any of them. 
You are free to think what you want.

I am going to explain where I come from; that a misconceptions may have resulted from my own 
not so careful word choice, in particuar "rumours" Those among you who have known me for a long time,
know that I don't beat around the bush and I certainly do not lie.

I have never yet been afraid to express my knowledge and believes publicly, and I never will be.

However, in the Pk saga, I do protect my Peruvian sources who have asked their names not be revealed. 
In many cases what I have posted are truly reports from my many Peruvian friends, they tell me can be backed up 
with documents and witnesses. But just like newspaper reporters I protect my sources. 

If Jerry Fischer is allowed to make statements about characters in the Pk saga, without having to put proof on the 
table, then why would you want to demand it from me? !

For several years in my lectures and on other forums I have elected to call these reports "rumours". 
That was a mistake on my part, I should have said "reports from trusted honest Peruvian friends that say they have documents and winesses to back them up." It was so much easier to say "rumours." I will not again use it from now on..

(I kindly ask Lance to explain once more why Peruvians are afraid, for he has already touched on that subject
in previous posts. Peruvian culture is rich in history and wonderful, there are significant contrasts with 
Western culture.)

1.) After one suggestion that ST wanted me to stay, and another that I would not be dropped from the list, 
I changed my mind and decided to stay. Simple as that. Why make an issue of it???

2) Let me be perfectly clear, I am not intimidated by any of you who believe it is a negative for me. 
Remember, only wise men change their mind.

3) I always state the facts as I know them and I will not back down for any of you, ridicule and all.

4) I realize that some of you do not know me, but believe me I am well known all over N and S America in connection
with Pk. My background concerning Pk is extensive, I have known about Pk from before Kovach purchased his plants from the same farmer I visited 1/2 year earlier. I know all the top orchid authorities in Peru having taught many of them at Lima's Agricultural University and visited their greenhouses and homes.I have dealt with INRENA and the USFWS concerning this case and I have known the Arias family longer than all of you together. I could go on, but at the risk at starting another 
explosion of posts I decide to stop here.

5) Jerry Fischer in his ST post said the following:" Peter, The words defamation and Libel come to mind. The definition of Libel: " A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's reputation."

6)My response on the same forum to Jerry: "(Please don't give me this libel crap, I know what I say and I have lots of proof to back up what I say, even about that which I chose to call rumours.)"
I have no further obligation to anyone on this forum to reveal what I have, wait until I am asked to appear in a court of law, charged with libellous comments. Don't hold your breath!!

7)If you have any question about Pk or the Pk saga, just ask me. You will always get an honest answer, but it may not always be what you were hoping for. If I may suggest, start a new thread and give it any name with Pk in it. 
peter
p.s. For your information, I am very proud to announce that it was Centro de Jardineria Manrique and 
Associates, who propagated and flowered the FIRST LEGAL Pk HYBRID in the world. If you are interested 
in seeing the first flower, visit my website http://home.golden.net/~orchids see under Phragmipedium kovachii News. I will post more pictures, as soon as I receive them.

Peter


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## PHRAG (Mar 2, 2007)

Peter, 

Based on your attitude, I just don't consider you a credible source of information. And I certainly wouldn't buy anything from you.


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## Greenthings (Mar 2, 2007)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> I for one have found the Pk info to be an astoundingly informative series of threads....and as can be expected, its raised some hackles. Peter, I hope you continue to post on this issue...i have always appreciated your posts on OGD and your knowledge...and as I have said in another post, this is really one of the more civilised forums out there....we all stand to benefit from these discussions....Take care, Eric




Thank you Eric!


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## Candace (Mar 2, 2007)

> p.s. For your information, I am very proud to announce that it was Centro de Jardineria Manrique and
> Associates, who propagated and flowered the FIRST LEGAL Pk HYBRID in the world. If you are interested
> in seeing the first flower, visit my website http://home.golden.net/~orchids see under Phragmipedium kovachii News. I will post more pictures, as soon as I receive them.



Peter, that looks suspiciously like the photo Ron has been posting of Glen Decker's plant!!

I think he needs photo credit on your website.


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## Greenthings (Mar 2, 2007)

Candace you are correct I received it from Alfredo Manrique, photographer to be confirmed.

By the way, Green Canyon Orchids and Piping Rock Orchids are both Pk distributors for 
CJM, owned and operated by Alfredo Manrique, just so you know.

Mar 2, 02007 10:20 pm
Glen Decker has just informed me that he is the photographer.

Ron's pictures posted on this forum are awesome. Congratulations Ron.

peter


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## Greenthings (Mar 3, 2007)

PHRAG said:


> Peter,
> 
> Based on your attitude, I just don't consider you a credible source of information. And I certainly wouldn't buy anything from you.




Not to worry Phrag, I would not have sold you anything, but have sent
you to your "more credible" source. 

peter


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## SlipperFan (Mar 3, 2007)

OK, guys. I don't think we can judge another person's attitude based on a couple of posts. And posts can be read differently by different people. Sometimes it's too easy to hide ourselves behind our words in emails or forum posts.

So now beat on me...


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