# Deflasking/compotting P. liemianum seedlings



## The Orchid Boy (Jan 6, 2013)

I ordered a flask of P. liemianum from Fox Valley Orchids. I'm going to deflask/compot using the 'agar on' method. I'll be using a fine bark, charcoal or perlite, and maybe a tiny bit of sphag mix. My temps and humidity is listed below. I know how to deflask but I want more details as to the care of a new compot. Tips?

Should I use T8s or T5s? And how far should the seedlings be from a T5 or T8 light?


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jan 6, 2013)

For a newly deflasked baby, T-8....and at least a foot away. You can increase light gradually, if they start to grow well.


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## Ozpaph (Jan 6, 2013)

I use low light and put the compot in a closed (not sealed) plastic bag and dont open it for 3 weeks.


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## Rick (Jan 6, 2013)

Can you tent them or otherwise figure out a way to increase humidity?

Seedlings right out of flask have soft tender leaves, and are used to very high humidity.


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## The Orchid Boy (Jan 6, 2013)

Well now I'm not sure what meathod of compotting I'll use. This page at the bottom https://lab.troymeyers.com/flasking/article.php?about=Flaskling-Care explains how Troy Meyers Conservatory does it. I've heard of 2 different agar on compotting methods. First one is taking seedlings out of flask and it doesn't matter much if the agar falls off. You put all the seedlings in a pot that has been mostly filled with media and put the agar over the roots. Second method is the "puck method". You take all seedlings out of flask and be careful to leave everything intact. Then you have a puck of agar with the orchid roots and set that on top of mix in pot and fill in a little. What are your suggestions? How do you deflask and compot?


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## Rick (Jan 6, 2013)

Most everything I get is from Troy and already deflasked. So haven't needed to try the puck method.

A year or so ago I got some flasks (in whiskey bottles) in from Thailand. Unfortunately the shipping was pretty traumatic and everything was jumbled up in the flask on arrival. Also I couldn't get anything out of the bottles without breaking them open.

So I ended up washing most of the old agar, dead leaves, and broken glass off the plants before potting them up.

If you have the luxury of getting something still settled in agar in a wide mouth jar, then I'd say go for it with regards to just setting the whole thing on the media.

But I've received hundreds of deflasked seedlings from Troy that start out just fine.


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## Rick (Jan 6, 2013)

I use equal parts of small CHC or bark with chopped sphagnum.

Maybe 1/4 part of small sponge rock and charcoal. Maybe a little sand. I like to use those plastic berry containers since they are slotted up already for good drainage.


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## ehanes7612 (Jan 7, 2013)

agar on is best for that flask..i deflasked a liemianum flask couple months ago from FVO, as well, and they are doing great as is.. just put them on top of your substrate , and cover the exposed agar with small medium bits...put them where they would get about 50 to 100 FC light (with lights).water as you would your other plants, your humidity is fine (same as mine)


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## Stone (Jan 7, 2013)

I've deflasked a few lately. (by the way, summer is definately the best time to order if you have a choice)
If you get the plants undisturbed, I would highly recommend opening the flask and leaving it for a week before touching them.
Most of the fasks I get are from Thailand in whisky bottles and invariably they are all tossed around with agar all over the place and sometimes many broken leaves/roots. After a couple of bad attempts deflasking these damamged plants ( cutting off all the broken leaves, smearing anti- fungle/bacterial on the cut surfaces and potting in standard seedling mix) It was a disaster. On 2 of the flasks I lost all but 2 plants and they look like they're on the brink.
Now with the damaged ones, I break the bottle straight into a bucket of water with the fungicide (banrot) and wash them all one by one with a hand sprayer and set them to dry out COMPLETELY on paper. The drying is the #1 most important point I think. Don't worry about damaging them, Its always the moisture thats the enemy. I no longer cut anything! I then pot into clean (just moist) NZ sphagnum and set them on bottom heat with air moving 24/7. No more losses!!! After a month or so you can do whatever you want with them. I have never tried the agar on method though I would like to see some pics of the process/progressoke:


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## wjs2nd (Jan 7, 2013)

I have always washed them completely. Once I have them potted up I put a zip-lock bag over them as a tent. I haven't lost any seedling. Agar used to transport seedling can be very firm/hard and I would be careful about it drying out/turning rock hard.


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## Cheyenne (Jan 7, 2013)

After hearing all these success stories using the agar on method I tied it with a few compots. I had awful results. The seedling first seemed fine for about three weeks, like they didn't skip a beat . Then they started to not look so good. After about a month of this I unpotted them to find the agar had not dissolved but got harder, so it was not letting water to the roots or letting the mix fall in around them. Most of the roots were dead. So I washed it off and repotted in fresh mix and now they are fine. It may have to do with the kind of agar that was used and its consistency.


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## The Orchid Boy (Jan 7, 2013)

When you wash agar off, do you separate seedlings or leave in a clump?

I might ask Tom about the agar he uses and how he compots new seedlings.


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## Cheyenne (Jan 7, 2013)

I pull off some big chuncks to get it going then use a spray bottle to blast off the rest. You don't have to get it all off. I just get most of ut so the mix actualy settles around the plants. Then I do one whole clump in a three or four inch pot. Or break it in two clumps in two or so inch pots. It depends if it is easy to get a part. Or if the roots are in one clump.


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## tomkalina (Jan 7, 2013)

I have not had good results using the "agar on" method of deflasking/compotting; the seedlings do well initially, then decline.

Here's the method that works best for me:

First, I unscrew the lid of the 500 ml plastic flask, then I rap the open mouth of the flask sharply against my left palm (I'm right handed) until the mass of seedlings comes out with the entire agar mass still intact. Holding the mass of seedlings in my left hand by the leaves, I wash off as much agar as will easily come off with a thin, high pressure stream of water. The mass of seedlings should hold together. I'm left with a fairly clean seedling mat that gets placed on top of our seedling bark mix in a 3.25" square pot. I then fill the remainder of the pot with mix so the base of the sdlgs is about 1/4" below the surface of the mix. I also make sure I sift enough bark mix between the seedlings, carefully rapping the sides of the pot to settle the mix (Obviously, I remove enough mix from the top of the seedlings to keep from burying them under mix). The compot is then placed under a four tube bank of T5's @ approx. 500 fc light intensity running 12 hours/day. I water the compots twice a week and fertilize at approx 70ppm N using the old standby Peter's 30-10-10 every second watering.

It's not the only method out there, but it works for us. Hope this helps...


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## cnycharles (Jan 7, 2013)

oops, I bought the same flask of liemianum, but mis-read the instructions. I took the seedlings/puck whole out of the flask and put it into a pot with a little chopped sphagnum underneath and on the sides (had firm scouring sponge underneath to hold moss up), and then sifted/watered more chopped sphagnum on top and around the seedlings. after reading this, I will wash most of the media away from roots and then put seedling bark all around and on top

they get low light. they don't have to have a lot of light when small


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## The Orchid Boy (Jan 8, 2013)

I got some Schultz Orchid Mix today and it was on clearance and I knew it was fine and dusty. I rinsed it for a few minutes and got all dust and the smallest bark pieces out. Here's what it looks like, with a penny for size comparison. The pot was full until I rinsed all small bit out. Now it is less than half full.






The bark is very flat. I could mix this with the tiny bit of medium fir bark I have. I also have perlite and charcoal I could mix in. Or should I use sphagnum moss. Haven't heard from Tom to know exactly when flask will get here but I think it may arrive on Thursday or Friday.


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## tomkalina (Jan 8, 2013)

Your flask was sent today and is scheduled to be delivered Thursday, 1/10. I sent you an email with the tracking number a few minutes ago. Appreciate the order!


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## The Orchid Boy (Jan 8, 2013)

Here's a picture of some "fine bark", bark pieces that I picked out of the medium bark. It has charcoal and a tiny bit of spag mixed in. Would this mix, the above bark with things added, or a mix of both of these barks be best?


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## tomkalina (Jan 8, 2013)

Your mix should work fine as long as you keep it moist. I wouldn't worry too much about washing out the finer pieces of mix - they will retain a little more moisture around the roots. You could also add about 10% perlite to your mix to keep it from compacting over time. Also, make sure you're using a plastic pot - not clay, as clay would keep the roots too cool.


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## Ozpaph (Jan 9, 2013)

The Orchid Boy said:


> Here's a picture of some "fine bark", bark pieces that I picked out of the medium bark. It has charcoal and a tiny bit of spag mixed in. Would this mix, the above bark with things added, or a mix of both of these barks be best?



I think that's a little coarse for deflasking. It does need to stay damp (coarser dries faster). As Tom said a bit of perlite helps.


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## The Orchid Boy (Jan 9, 2013)

So the first one with a little stuff like perlite added would be best? The first bark is, like I said, flat and finer than it looks and I can easily break the bark pieces.


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## wjs2nd (Jan 9, 2013)

Either would work well. You could probably even mix the barks together a little. I usually don't use sphag in my mixes unless it's straight sphag moss.


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## The Orchid Boy (Jan 9, 2013)

Do you think straight sphag would work? I love using sphag. All my orchids except for paphs and a D. aggregatum are in straight sphag. I don't have paphs in it because I've heard that it's not so good for them, but Troy Meyers says they compot everything in sphag. I know when I individually pot the seedlings I'll try some in spha and some in bark.


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## consettbay2003 (Jan 9, 2013)

http://www.ladyslipper.com/compot2.html

This works great for me.


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## wjs2nd (Jan 9, 2013)

You can use straight sphag for a compot. However, I have had a lot of luck with small/ fine bark, coal, and perlite.


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## Ozpaph (Jan 10, 2013)

wjs2nd said:


> You can use straight sphag for a compot. However, I have had a lot of luck with small/ fine bark, coal, and perlite.



ditto - fine bark, fine charcoal, perlite and some fine CCH


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## The Orchid Boy (Jan 10, 2013)

The flask is here! I think there must be more than 20... Sorry for the fuzzy picture, I'll take a better one later.


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## Rick (Jan 10, 2013)

Choice of mix may end up to do more with the amount of humidity he can maintain, and the type of pot used.

I've had good results in both straight moss and bark/chc mixes with up to 50% by volume chopped moss. 

But my minimum air humdity is 60% (average around 70%) and I use shallow berry containers with lots of drainage/air slots.

bark mixes could be better in deeper pots with less drainage/air slots.


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## Leo Schordje (Jan 10, 2013)

I use Tom Kalina's method. It works for me too. Just rinse off as much agar as you can without breaking up the clump. 

I have seen beautiful paphs grown in pure NZ sphagnum, including a roth that I witnessed my friend Cathy bring from seedling to blooming over the course of a decade, never in bark. So if you want to use sphagnum, go ahead. It works very well for people who take the time to figure out when to water it. 

I prefer bark, but I understand how to use a bark mix better. But that is my preference, I don't feel one is superior to another. Both can work well.


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## The Orchid Boy (Jan 11, 2013)

*Deflasked!*

I compotted them last night using a fine bark, perlite, charcoal mixture into a clear pot. I used Tom's method and washed off as much agar as I could. I then put the pot into a makeshift terrarium made out of a critter keeper with clear wrap rubberbanded over the top. I will cut more slots and holes over a period of time to harden them off. 

The biggest seedling is the size of my middle finger and the smallest could fit on my pinky nail. There is one super husky seedling with wide, long leaves. The thing that surprised me was the long spaces (internodes?) between the leaves. Will they eventually grow out of it? Will they lose lower leaves and grow roots and then I'll have to plant them deeper?


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## tomkalina (Jan 11, 2013)

Glad to hear the flask got there safely. The important thing about compotting seedlings is to make sure you plant them deeply enough so that emerging roots are covered by the mix. Aerial roots will not elongate, callus over and become non-functional.


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## The Orchid Boy (Jan 11, 2013)

So I just had to cover the roots that grew in the agar, not the aerial ones? Because that's what I did, I didn't cover the aerial roots. And the spaces between leaves? Will they outgrow it?


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## tomkalina (Jan 11, 2013)

As long as the base of the seedling is 1/4" deep in the mix, that should be fine.


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## The Orchid Boy (Jan 11, 2013)

I planted them just a little deeper than they were in the agar. Thanks for the flask Tom and thanks for all the help everyone.


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## Stone (Jan 12, 2013)

From what I've noticed with those elongated seedlings with much space between the leaves and a root poking out here and there up the stem (aerial roots), that you must cover the whole stem up to the upper most set of leaves because that is the place where the actual plant proper will form. And thats where the new roots will come from. (if that makes sense) It doesn't seem to bother the plant if cover a few leaves. Then at next repot, you can remove the stem and all the useless old flask roots.


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## The Orchid Boy (Jan 13, 2013)

Stone said:


> From what I've noticed with those elongated seedlings with much space between the leaves and a root poking out here and there up the stem (aerial roots), that you must cover the whole stem up to the upper most set of leaves because that is the place where the actual plant proper will form. And thats where the new roots will come from. (if that makes sense) It doesn't seem to bother the plant if cover a few leaves. Then at next repot, you can remove the stem and all the useless old flask roots.



Hmm... Some of the seedlings look like a "normal" paph. If I didn't separate them, I would cover some seedlings. Do I need to recompot? What should I do?


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Jan 13, 2013)

I say leave them as they are. If there are aireal roots they will stop growing but the plant itself should still be just fine.


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## Stone (Jan 15, 2013)

You can leave them for now but eventually you will need to cover up to the top fan of leaves or they will not put out new roots.


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## keithrs (Jan 15, 2013)

I would not repot them! Just add alittle mix if needed. On your terrarium, make sure you have good air movement as stale air will cause fungal problems. 

Do you have pics of you compot?


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## The Orchid Boy (Jan 15, 2013)

Here's the compot right after I did it:


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## Justin (Jan 15, 2013)

looking good. don't keep them too wet by watering too frequently. do let them breathe. clip out any parts that turn brown. they should do fine.


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## Ozpaph (Jan 18, 2013)

They look great. LOTS of humidity.


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## The Orchid Boy (Jan 22, 2013)

This doesn't have to do with the gratrixianum but it does have to do with seedlings and light. In a few months (around March 1) I will be using my T8 light fixture for raising tomato, pepper, and eggplant seedlings and won't have any room for my P. liemianum compot. Will the compot be ok under the T5s if it's 1' 3" to 1' 6" from the light? Or would it be better to put it under the leaves of a bigger orchid like my sanderianum or oncidium? I have the compot in a humid terrarium now and it is a little less than a foot from the T8 tubes. I'm gradually adding more ventilation and light to harden them off.


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## wjs2nd (Jan 23, 2013)

Harding-off the seedlings in your terrarium with T8 lights sounds good. Seedlings usually harden-off in a few weeks (I believe, I've heard 8 weeks or so). I've had my seedling, Roth hybrid, with my paphs and it hasn't stressed them at all.


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## tomkalina (Jan 23, 2013)

Your P. liemianum compot should be fine approx 18" below your T5's. This is the same setup I use for all of our compots.


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## The Orchid Boy (Feb 13, 2013)

Sorry to bring up this subject of recompotting again... Below is a picture of how deep the seedlings are planted. They have new roots growing from between the leaves. I cannot add more media around the base of them or the media would overflow out of the pot and I would bury some seedlings that aren't leggy. Should I recompot or not? They are in active growth and all of them are alive and growing new roots and new leaves. I think I should but you guys are the experts, if I did I would do it like Troy Meyers does here: Our Compotting Method Also, what is a TN # and flask #? There were some #s and letters on my flask. I saved them in case they were important.


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## Cheyenne (Feb 13, 2013)

The way I do it is if they are all the same height and at the same level then I pot as one clump. If some are leggy and some are not at different heights, I separate them to make them all the same. Or the other option is to pop them out, get rid of some mix, leave them as one clump and pothem deeper. Than add more mix which might cover some of them, but you sacrifice some to save the rest.


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## cnycharles (Feb 13, 2013)

troy (meyers conservatory) puts everything in a database, so each entry of an orchid cross that's submitted to him gets a tn# and each flask has it's own flask#


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Feb 13, 2013)

I'm no expert, but I'd be leaving those babies alone. I have some micranthum that came out of flask that were leggy and had roots growing up high. I just potted them up the old regular way and they are doing just fine.


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## Justin (Feb 13, 2013)

agree with bob, leave 'em be! they are looking great btw.


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## The Orchid Boy (Feb 13, 2013)

So in 6 months or so when I decompot they will be leggy but fine and I'll just plant them deeper when I decompot?


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## wjs2nd (Feb 13, 2013)

I'm leaving my compot alone and it looks the same as yours. The roots should be okay. Even my leggy one are growing down.


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## The Orchid Boy (Apr 10, 2013)

Well, I went against just about everybody's advice. I re-compotted all the seedlings using Troy Meyers method. I asked Sam Tsui about re-compotting and showed him pictures at the show and he advised me to do it. I did it around March 3rd. They are now doing well and don't seem to have suffered shock. They seem to be doing much better now.

Below are pictures of the compots:

Compot #1- Biggest and most seedlings





Compot #2- seedlings that I couldn't fit into #1





Compot #3- the tiniest seedlings in a 3" pot. These seedlings are smaller than my pinky nail.





I haven't lost a single seedling, not even any of the tiniest ones.


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## Stone (Apr 10, 2013)

The Orchid Boy said:


> > I haven't lost a single seedling, not even any of the tiniest ones
> 
> 
> 
> Not yet............Give it time


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## cnycharles (Apr 10, 2013)

Stone said:


> Not yet............Give it time



 I was going to reply this morning and point out that I had some seedlings of the same cross, and the tiny ones were even doing well (using klite) and hadn't died since I had brought them home; looking more closely I saw today that two of the tiny ones had rotted at the base because I had watered them a bit too much and covered them so that they didn't dry off quickly enough (better not to tempt fate and things like that  )


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## Stone (Apr 11, 2013)

cnycharles said:


> I was going to reply this morning and point out that I had some seedlings of the same cross, and the tiny ones were even doing well (using klite) and hadn't died since I had brought them home; looking more closely I saw today that two of the tiny ones had rotted at the base because I had watered them a bit too much and covered them so that they didn't dry off quickly enough (better not to tempt fate and things like that  )



Yes very quick to die if too wet but very slow if too dry. I think there's a lesson there for all of us:rollhappy: That's also why I prefer my humour on the dry side.


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## The Orchid Boy (Apr 11, 2013)

Stone said:


> Yes very quick to die if too wet but very slow if too dry. I think there's a lesson there for all of us:rollhappy: That's also why I prefer my humour on the dry side.



LOL! :rollhappy:


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## The Orchid Boy (May 16, 2013)

Here are some pictures I took today of my Paph. liemianum compots.

Compot #1- The biggest, most vigorous seedlings. 23 seedlings This compot is getting pretty full.





Compot #2- Mediocre ones. 7 seedlings





Compot # 3: The runts in a 3 inch pot. 10 seedlings


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## Ozpaph (May 16, 2013)

doing very well.


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