# brown rot pandemic



## TyroneGenade (Nov 21, 2012)

Hello,

I have a serious problem. There is some or other bacteria killing my plants and it moves fast. Sunday my last surviving growth of Paph armeniacum was healthy and Monday morning it had rotted off. Whatever this is, it moves fast.

The problem first occurred in summer/fall of this year when I lost all my Satyriums and several other plants. The leaves just started turning brown and mushy and nothing stopped it. The Paphs seems a bit more resistant but I have now lost several plants to this rot (and it looks like my Gege Hughes is next, all of its attempts to make new growths have failed). I'm also down to my last healthy growth of bessae. Most of my deflasked seedlings are dead and many of my Catts and Onc hybrids have also succumbed. Luckily, my Tolumnia and Restrepia seem resistant.

Anyone have any suggestions? I'm thinking of spraying everything with some dilute hydrogen peroxide to surface sterilize everything.


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## ehanes7612 (Nov 21, 2012)

what is your day humidity? and what is it at night?..if you have a rapid change in humidity from day to night (say 60 to 80 or 70 to 90%). this can cause problems over a period of time..especially if you dont have enough airflow..it can also depend on the shape of your greenhouse , some greenhouses create natural dead spaces..i had to put three fans in my 10 x 12 space because of the half A frame, but when i had a half dome (12 x 15) i only needed one fan. also have to consider anything that weakens plants in general ..such as drying out too much or too much light or whatever


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## dodidoki (Nov 21, 2012)

Use natrium hypochlorite solution for watering ( 10 ml/l). It will made miracle!!!
(for prevention and stop infection spreading). Sick plants will plobably die.


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## Shiva (Nov 21, 2012)

I always use hydrogen peroxyde at a 3% solution plus an application of straight sulphur on the affected areas, to prevent fungus from colonizing the sick plant. Works most of the time, but the affected leaves are done for. I have a paph parishii that got attacked two months ago. I only have the newest leaf left and can still hope it will start to grow again.


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## wjs2nd (Nov 21, 2012)

I was thinking hydrogen peroxide too. Good luck Tyrone! I'm sorry to hear about all your plants/orchids!


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## Justin (Nov 21, 2012)

Sounds like erwina. 

Do you have access to phyton 27? That will stop the bleeding but then you will have to find the cultural issue that fostered the spread.


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## TyroneGenade (Nov 21, 2012)

My Satyriums were growing out doors in the wind... Now I'm living in a very different environment and the problem is still occurring. This isn't a humidity problem. 

3% H2O2 it will be. It will try bleach (sodium hypochlorite) next.

I got luck with my Paph phil. I just cut off the leaf...

Thanks for the advice.


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## quiltergal (Nov 21, 2012)

I agree with Justin. It sounds like Erwinia which is bacterial and spreads like wildfire. Cut off all affected parts back to healthy green tissue, and dust the cuts with cinnamon. Make sure you sterilize tools between plants. I have heard that Erwinia spreads by water splashing from one plant to another.


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## likespaphs (Nov 21, 2012)

i think it may be erwinia too
is the rot stinky?


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## cnycharles (Nov 21, 2012)

is there any chance you've sprayed anything different lately or there is something in your water or the chemistry has changed? just that how you mention that nothing has stopped the rot, it could be something different than what you might be expecting. though spraying fungicide on bacterial infections wouldn't do anything. copper sulfate can help with bacteria as well as the other advice, and watering with a lot of calcium can't hurt


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## SlipperKing (Nov 21, 2012)

Tyrone,
I searched all afternoon and came up with this interesting article on controlling Erwinia. I believe salicylic acid is one of the main components of aspirin.
http://www.ejp.eg.net/vol.35.No2/6.pdf

the meat and potatopoke of the article is high lighted below.
R e s u l t s a n d D i s c u s s i o n
1. Effect of some resistance inducing factors against bacterial soft rot of potato:
Application of salicylic acid and BION as resistance inducing factors has
significantly decreased severity of bacterial soft rot disease of potato compared with
the control (Fig.1 A&B). Percentage of disease reduction was increased by
increasing the rate of salicylic acid and BION. Efficiency of salicylic was more
effective against the disease than BION. Also, salicylic acid was the most effective
to reduce the disease, at 9 mM, where percentage of disease reduction was 100%.
Applications of salicylic acid lead to decrease the disease, when this compound was
applied at the same time or after inoculation with the pathogen. Meanwhile,
application of BION tends to reduce the disease, when it was applied before
inoculation with the pathogen. These results are in agreement with Abd El-Sayed
et al. (2003). The effect of salicylic acid was not caused by direct action on the
growth of pathogen, but the effect of was rather a consequence of induction of plant
defense response (Malamy and Klessing, 1992). Many Biochemical changes occur
during systemic acquired resistance (SAR), i.e. pathogenesis- related (PR) proteins.
Acidic PR-proteins including acidic B-1.3 glucanase and chitinase are secreted in
the intercellular spaces, where they would act against fungal and or bacterial
pathogens at early stage of infection process. Basic B,1,3-glucanase and chitinase
accumulate in the vacuole, may interact with pathogens, at a later stage of infection,
during host cell deterioration (Ye et al., 1995 and Kuc, 1995).
2. Effect of some salt compounds against bacterial soft rot of potato:
Application of potassium sulfate, ammonium phosphate and calcium chloride as
salt compounds significantly decreased severity of bacterial soft rot disease of potato
compared with the control (Fig. 2A&B). Efficiency of salt compounds was
increased against the disease by increasing their rate. Severity of bacterial soft rot of
potato was completely reduced, when potassium sulfate and calcium chloride
were applied at 0.5 g/l and at the same time of inoculation with the pathogen. Tested


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## cnycharles (Nov 21, 2012)

there you go; dust and powder all of your plants with calcium chloride 
(deep freeze rock salt) and then salicylic acid


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## Paph_LdyMacBeth (Nov 21, 2012)

Wow Tyrone I'm sorry your going through this. I had a battle with erwinia in my phrags last summer...I ended up just tossing the affected plants after tying to treat them multiple times. It was hard, but the right thing to do for me. 
Others have had great suggestions. I wish you success!


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## abax (Nov 22, 2012)

Will Cleary's 3336 have an effect on erwinia? I've never had the problem
and wonder if occasional use of Cleary's might have been of some help.


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## quiltergal (Nov 22, 2012)

Cleary's is a systemic fungicide. It won't cure a bacterial outbreak.


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## TyroneGenade (Nov 22, 2012)

Thanks for all the advice and insights. CaCl2 and asprin to the rescue!


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## Ozpaph (Nov 22, 2012)

Better use dissolvable aspirin.


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## eggshells (Nov 22, 2012)

Increase calcium and magnesium supplement once you are done treating them. Helps to supress erwinia.

Similar paper of what Rick linked regarding erwinia.

http://www.nzpps.org/journal/50/nzpp_505350.pdf


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## Rick (Nov 22, 2012)

The problems of erwinia associated with plants (especially perennial species) was part of the logic for low K feeding.

One of the papers I found on the supplementation of Ca to potatoes showed that resistance to erwinia was low when leaf tissue concentrations of K exceeded Ca. Subsequently increasing Ca to offset K was instrumental in increasing resistance to erwinia in potatoes ( a domesticated annual species).

In tropical epiphytes we have documentation that K is selectively absorbed to the detriment of Ca uptake. Subsequently, in order to avoid high K levels in orchids, K supplementation from fertilizer needs to be restricted and offset by high Ca concentrations.

Tyrone, I don't know what your present fertilizer system is, but many of us have noted greatly reduced (if not completely eliminated) problems with erwinia since going to a low K/high Ca,Mg feeding regime.

As noted from above the use of K sulfate and Ca chloride for potatoes, but note that potatoes are a high K use plant, and the sulfur (sulfate) is a critical component of the addition. You might see if you can use calcium sulfate (Gypsum) instead of the chloride form of Ca. It's not as soluble, but could also be used as a top dress.


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## Rick (Nov 22, 2012)

I think this math has been done before for the asprin addition, but:

the molar mass of salysilic acid is 138 g/mol

so 9mM solution is 1.25 g/L which is 4.7 g/gallon


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## Lmpgs (Nov 22, 2012)

*One more question on this subject*

Recently, I lost 3 plants of these symptoms. 1 Phragm. Olaf Gruss, just bought from Ecuagenera, 1 Paph. delenati vinicolor (bought last summer from Popow, DE) and 1 phragm. Cape Bonanza from Wubben NL (almost dead - 1 growth only still alive but affected). I'm wondering if chemicals can bring good results. Eg. Previcur of Bayer Crop Science Propamocarb hydrochloride 72,2%. 

-Can chemicals cause major damages to my plants? (the specific one), 
-Could I use it for prevention?

Thank you


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## Brabantia (Nov 22, 2012)

Because we are around the subject "Induced Defense Plant Response". Has somebody tested the effect of the laminarin on our orchids? Laminarin is an elicitor extracted from the brown algae. But maybe this subject can be a title for a new thread.


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## TyroneGenade (Nov 23, 2012)

Rick said:


> the molar mass of salysilic acid is 138 g/mol
> 
> so 9mM solution is 1.25 g/L which is 4.7 g/gallon



Thanks, Rick. I'm an old biochemist and you saved me some tedious math. :clap:

The CaSO4 top-dress isn't a bad idea. Otherwise, I can just have a slurry in my watering can. It reaches about 0.2 g/ 100 mL so the Ca would be definitely in excess.

Any idea on how this would effect Restrepia and Tolumnia? Everyone gets water out of the same can... Not a lot of time in the morning to specially water everyone.

About my fertilizer regime: Osmocoate around the plants (or for the Paphs, along the inner edge of the pot) and some Kelpack every other week. Most plants are potted in crushed brick and the plants watered daily (unless it rains) in the warm months. There is some fine milled bark among the brick---something organic to hold a little water.


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## Rick (Nov 23, 2012)

I've also been growing some restrepias for several years. I don't think they are a big fan of significant TDS levels. I started seeing some black spotting on the leaves when I boosted Ca for them (in conjunction with everything else), so I upped the Mg sulfate ratio a bit more and this seemed to help.

I believe Osmocoat has a balanced NPK, but it is slow release. You might consider checking some pot conductivity levels for TDS buildup. I was really surprised when I checked one of my semi hydro phrags in Hydroton clay balls how much salt was getting retained in that matrix even though I primarily water with RO.

I've been flushing/replacing the sump water a few times a week since, and brought the conductivity down from around 700 useimens to 350.


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## TyroneGenade (Nov 24, 2012)

Thanks for the advice, Rick. My water is very soft to start with so I will see how it goes when I start adding Ca. If the Restrepia complain then I will have to make a different plan.

Thanks


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## bullsie (Nov 24, 2012)

I always have a bit of a problem with this type rot several months after my plants have been brought in from the outside. Since I windowsill grow I have noticed that my darkest days are my most 'lethal' days. I try to keep a wary eye on the plants then and work to keep air flow good and usually try to spray periodically with Physan to help. And when it strikes to remove plants and peroxide them leaving them in quaranteen. Sometimes I save them sometimes not.

Oh, and the younger my Cattleyas, say 2" pot size for standards (or plants I've acquired that were old, 30+ yrs), the more apt they are to be affected or infected.

I will try the ca mg route as has been suggested. I hate losing plants to this menace. I'm also going to try a cinnamon spray and see if that helps.


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## TyroneGenade (Nov 26, 2012)

I've been growing some Brachy's indoors on the kitchen 'sill and have had no problems with them... It seems this is a summer problem. I wonder if there isn't some fly buzzing about biting the plants and letting the infection in. 

I'm going spray everything with asprin and water with CaSO4. 

That said, while all the Masdevallia have rotted away the Restrepia and Tolumnia have done the best, chiefly because I keep them drier (yes, the Restrepia are drier in there clay pots) so it could be a moisture issue.


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## ericst11 (Dec 20, 2012)

The best thing i have ran across for any rot that works great on my orchids is pageant fungicide .I use it on all my stuff and stops most rot and diseases in its tracks and i grow everything from pleurothallis to Catt's about 300 different species. check it out costly but goes a long way and isn't even close to as bad as most fungicides for you or your plants. Heres a link it took a lot of research to find it. http://betterplants.basf.us/products/pageant-intrinsic-brand-fungicide.html

P.S if you really want to try it i would send you a little to see if it would save your plants.


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## TyroneGenade (Dec 21, 2012)

Well, I have sprayed with asprin twice now. Seems some of the young tender leaves of some of the Oncidium hybrids are still suffering but for the most part the epidemic has stopped. Sadly, my Gege Hughes didn't make it.


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## SlipperKing (Dec 21, 2012)

That's good but bad news at the same time. Sorry about the G. Hughes but sounds like the asprin cleared up your headache as well as the plants.
I tried the aspirn on a few problems as well but wasn't certain it did anything or if the rot had just run its course. Thanks for the update Tyrone.


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## Erythrone (Dec 21, 2012)

I tried aspirin too and I did not see any evidence that it did anything too. I had better results trying to find the best growing conditions for my plants


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## TyroneGenade (Dec 22, 2012)

Curses! I spoke too soon. Checked on some new growths from my mini Catts and the new growths had rotted back. Even of my Trick or Treat which is as tough as nails (I roasted it in the noon day sun last year and still just carried on). Seems it is mostly new growth which is affected. Again, the Restrepia seem fine as is the Masd. tovarensis (the sole survivor of my Masdi collection). I'm told the tovarensis prefers to be dryier... but the Restrepia want humidity so I can't see this as a humidity problem or being too wet. 

So much for the asprin. And the Catts are in crushed brick which is heavy on the lime and drains very freely so it can't be a Ca/Mg problem either.

I thought that maybe my old spray bottle or watering can was carrying the pathogen (darn organic fertilizer rubbish!) but I have replaced either and switched fertilizer. I don't think this is Erwinia. Maybe it is a fungus?


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## cnycharles (Dec 22, 2012)

an induced response from aspirin may not work right away, just thinking... also are you sure there hasn't been any change to your water supply, like it's getting saltier or more chlorine, or the chlorine has been changed to chloramine? (or just some other previously non-present water condition that has now changed)
I read here or somewhere where a water supply had changed their disinfectant to chloramine from chlorine, and it had a detrimental affect on their plants. also there may have been some contamination to a chemical that you used previously (like the benlate contamination years ago) that has messed up your plants

although thinking back on your posts if some of the above I listed was the case, it would affect the restrepias as well or worse (just trying to think around corners a bit)


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## Rick (Dec 23, 2012)

cnycharles said:


> an induced response from aspirin may not work right away, just thinking...



Yes

Erwinia rots are something very difficult to "cure", and with orchids it may take a year or so to get the foliage tough enough to withstand the assaults.

The K/Ca balance in tissue is not something that can be fixed after the growth has been developed.

So often the plant will need to turn over a bunch of growths under a different growing regime before you get resistant growths.


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## Rick (Dec 23, 2012)

TyroneGenade said:


> And the Catts are in crushed brick which is heavy on the lime and drains very freely so it can't be a Ca/Mg problem either.
> 
> I don't think this is Erwinia. Maybe it is a fungus?



Brick is typically fired clay, so not sure what this has to do with lime/Ca

Erwinia is pretty obvious with its sickly/sweet/fermenting like smell. Actually I've never seen it on a Catt before.

I've had black rots (also bacterial) taking out new growths on Catts. Generally new ones that were just acquired. The last time was for a newly obtained and potted Portia (in plain bark, but with styrofoam peanuts to make the growth shallow). After getting a bunch of new growths rot off I added a liberal top dressing of "Cichlid Sand". It put out a flush of new roots over the surface of the bark, and then all subsequent new growths came out fine.


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## SlipperFan (Dec 23, 2012)

Rick said:


> Yes
> 
> Erwinia rots are something very difficult to "cure", and with orchids it may take a year or so to get the foliage tough enough to withstand the assaults.
> 
> ...


I'm glad you posted this because, although I've been using K-lite for several months now, I still have battles with erwinia. Not as bad, I must say, but still fighting it.


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## Rick (Dec 23, 2012)

SlipperFan said:


> I'm glad you posted this because, although I've been using K-lite for several months now, I still have battles with erwinia. Not as bad, I must say, but still fighting it.



Yup

The biggest problem is calcium uptake. K will generally trump the uptake of Ca and Mg when present, and once Ca is really hard/slow to get into plants in the first place. Once a leaf is matured, it can't Ca anyway (although K and Mg are still mobile). So you are kind of stuck waiting for the new leaves and growths to dominate the plants.

The asprin may help toughen up the older leaves and growths in the meantime. Since it seems to be pretty mobile in the plant.


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## TyroneGenade (Dec 24, 2012)

Rick said:


> Brick is typically fired clay, so not sure what this has to do with lime/Ca



We have lovely white clay rich in lime so the bricks tend to be very alkaline. I must admit that maybe this is still a problem and a top dress with CaSO4 is still a good idea. It surely can't do any harm now.

Thanks


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## keithrs (Dec 24, 2012)

I personally dont think that Ca/Mg or aspirin will fix the problem if it already in the plant(s). I think a more aggressive approach is going to have to be taken. I think you'll need to use a systemic fungicide several times if your going to have any chance. Spray everything around your grow area. After you have fixed your rot problem(fingers crossed) than you can use a preventer like physan 20 or what I like is trichoderma and bacterial products like Sub Culture B. I had rot problems for a long time and these is how I have pretty much solved it. I tried using the high Ca/Mg rout without use SubC and I started to see problems come back. 

I feel your pain and wish you luck!!!


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## Erythrone (Dec 24, 2012)

keithrs, why use a fungicide if it is bacterial rot?


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## Rick (Dec 24, 2012)

TyroneGenade said:


> We have lovely white clay rich in lime so the bricks tend to be very alkaline. I must admit that maybe this is still a problem and a top dress with CaSO4 is still a good idea. It surely can't do any harm now.
> 
> Thanks



See if you can get a hardness check on leachate water.

Alkalinity is from hydroxides and carbonates (not calcium or maganesium). Alkalinity (HCO3 or OH) can be associated with any major cation (Na/K/Ca/Mg), and even if you demonstrated a high pH coming off the clay, it doesn't neccessarly mean you have high alkalinity.

Hardness measures Ca/Mg (with aluminum interference). You may have a high Ca clay, but once fired it may have no mobile Ca. So to determine mobile (bioavailable) Ca you need to measure hardness and not pH or alkalinity.


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## Rick (Dec 24, 2012)

keithrs said:


> I personally dont think that Ca/Mg or aspirin will fix the problem if it already in the plant(s).
> 
> you can use a preventer like physan 20



I generally agree that Ca/Mg/asprin will not "cure" a present infection.

However I've seen more people end up with all new problems after playing with Physan.

At one point I was able to find the company field research on Physan specifically for Erwinia infections.

The efficacy rate (or rate of cure) was less than 10% compared to doing nothing at all. Except for being statistically significant, it really doesn't seem very effective.

Antibiotics (like carbenocilyn) are perported to do better.

I've had good results with cinamon, surgery, and Dragons Blood.

But since the change in nutrition, I've had little need of "curing" bacterial rots, and I don't use pharmacutical or industrial chemicals as preventatives.


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## keithrs (Dec 24, 2012)

Rick said:


> I generally agree that Ca/Mg/asprin will not "cure" a present infection.
> 
> However I've seen more people end up with all new problems after playing with Physan.
> 
> ...



I was not talking about using Physan as a "cure" to infected plant only as a preventative to kill pathogens that may be in the grow area and in the pots. 

I as well have had zero need for chemicals since using Sub Culture B. 

I have never used cinnamon or dragon blood.... Sh*t, I have no clue what that even is! Just a good old hot knife. 

If it worth anything....Seaweed is said to stimulate the plants SAR as well.


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## keithrs (Dec 24, 2012)

Erythrone said:


> keithrs, why use a fungicide if it is bacterial rot?



Phyton 27 is a systemic Fungicide/bactericide that will protect the plant from bacterial soft rots. I use it after I remove the infected tissue.


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## Erythrone (Dec 24, 2012)

Sorry keithrs. I was not thinking about Phyton 27. I asked you that because your wrote: "I think you'll need to use a systemic fungicide several times if your going to have any chance. Spray everything around your grow area."

But now I understand that you were writing about a fungicide/bactericide


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## Rick (Dec 24, 2012)

keithrs said:


> I as well have had zero need for chemicals since using Sub Culture B.



Label ingredients on Sub Culture B is some beneficial bacteria and a low dose of a low K fert.

Sub Culture M is a mycorrhizae / beneficial bacteria inoculate with kelp.

So if you add Sub B to regular surface water you get a low K high Ca/Mg fert with beneficial bacteria. Can't hurt!

I've added things like SubC M before and got mixed results. Definitely didn't prevent erwinia.

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7208

I messed with a mycorrhizae inoculate back in 2008


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## keithrs (Dec 24, 2012)

The trichoderma is the important one. Rootshield is an all trichoderma product. I have recently started to use a product from a guy off eBay.


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## Rick (Dec 24, 2012)

keithrs said:


> The trichoderma is the important one. Rootshield is an all trichoderma product. I have recently started to use a product from a guy off eBay.



The Plant Success product I used had two species of trichoderma in it.


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## Cochlopetalum (Dec 25, 2012)

I use a powder of trichoderma to dust roots, when I repott new plants. I find it to be effectiv on fungus like Fusarium, Pythium and Phytophthora, I think it have saved me some Phalls and paphs with realy bad rot.


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## Rick (Dec 25, 2012)

A concept to consider about the presence/absence of beneficial microbes is to ask why they are generally present in natural soils and not in orchid potting mixes already (especially when we see disease in our plants).

In practice you should be able to inoculate a potting mix once, and if the environment is conducive to these microbes they should proliferate and keep everyone happy forever. These same microbes have been noted on orchid roots in the wild, so what happens to them in transfer and pot culture that makes them go away?

The logic is similar to what I've proposed generally with low k feeding and using moss as indicators of good pot conditions.


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## keithrs (Dec 25, 2012)

Rick said:


> A concept to consider about the presence/absence of beneficial microbes is to ask why they are generally present in natural soils and not in orchid potting mixes already (especially when we see disease in our plants).
> 
> In practice you should be able to inoculate a potting mix once, and if the environment is conducive to these microbes they should proliferate and keep everyone happy forever. These same microbes have been noted on orchid roots in the wild, so what happens to them in transfer and pot culture that makes them go away?
> 
> The logic is similar to what I've proposed generally with low k feeding and using moss as indicators of good pot conditions.



I agree.... 

One thing that comes to mine is that salts effect the life of microbes. 

I will be trying N fixing microbes next spring.


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## Erythrone (Dec 25, 2012)

N fixing microbes for orchids??


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## Rick (Dec 25, 2012)

keithrs said:


> I agree....
> 
> One thing that comes to mine is that salts effect the life of microbes.
> 
> I will be trying N fixing microbes next spring.



Yes

I also noticed that the microbes in Sub Culture B where listed as "high salt" adapted species. Although the trichoderma were not part of Sub Culture B.

One thing I found in the moss literature was that moss assemblages often include blue-green algae that are N fixing species. So since orchids are frequently associated with mosses, it's not unlikely that the orchids are getting their fixed N from the blue-green algae in the moss.


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## keithrs (Dec 26, 2012)

Rick said:


> Yes
> 
> I also noticed that the microbes in Sub Culture B where listed as "high salt" adapted species. Although the trichoderma were not part of Sub Culture B.



Not sure your source.. But the back of the package I have here list two spp of trichoderma.


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## Rick (Dec 26, 2012)

keithrs said:


> Not sure your source.. But the back of the package I have here list two spp of trichoderma.



The label was upside down on the web, so I might have missed them by the time I flipped and scrunched the label.

I saw the trichoderma on the Sub Culture M though.

reviewing the labels I see T. harzianum for SC B, but SC M has both T harzianum and T. konigii.


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## keithrs (Dec 26, 2012)

Rick said:


> The label was upside down on the web, so I might have missed them by the time I flipped and scrunched the label.
> 
> I saw the trichoderma on the Sub Culture M though.
> 
> reviewing the labels I see T. harzianum for SC B, but SC M has both T harzianum and T. konigii.


Your right only one is listed...


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## TyroneGenade (Dec 27, 2012)

This funny infection my plants have is getting more and more interesting. Last year one of my Eulophia speciosa growths rotted (or so I thought). This years, same things: the new leaves began to rot and die back. Fearing the worst I took the think out of its pot and lo-and-behold, the tuberoids were A-OK. Even last year's growth that rotted still had a healthy tuber. There was no damage to the plant itself, it is only the new leaves. On closer examination I see my L. anceps (both of them) all have new growths which are dying back. What ever this it isn't killing the plant, only the new leaves (which is death to a Paph or Phrag). Maybe something has changed in my water supply? I begin to doubt this is a real infection but maybe a mineral shortage or something.


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## Rick (Dec 27, 2012)

TyroneGenade said:


> This funny infection my plants have is getting more and more interesting. Last year one of my Eulophia speciosa growths rotted (or so I thought). This years, same things: the new leaves began to rot and die back. Fearing the worst I took the think out of its pot and lo-and-behold, the tuberoids were A-OK. Even last year's growth that rotted still had a healthy tuber. There was no damage to the plant itself, it is only the new leaves. On closer examination I see my L. anceps (both of them) all have new growths which are dying back. What ever this it isn't killing the plant, only the new leaves (which is death to a Paph or Phrag). Maybe something has changed in my water supply? I begin to doubt this is a real infection but maybe a mineral shortage or something.



Do you have a TDS or conductivity meter? I found this a pretty critical piece of equipment recently.


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## dodidoki (Dec 27, 2012)

TyroneGenade said:


> This funny infection my plants have is getting more and more interesting. Last year one of my Eulophia speciosa growths rotted (or so I thought). This years, same things: the new leaves began to rot and die back. Fearing the worst I took the think out of its pot and lo-and-behold, the tuberoids were A-OK. Even last year's growth that rotted still had a healthy tuber. There was no damage to the plant itself, it is only the new leaves. On closer examination I see my L. anceps (both of them) all have new growths which are dying back. What ever this it isn't killing the plant, only the new leaves (which is death to a Paph or Phrag). Maybe something has changed in my water supply? I begin to doubt this is a real infection but maybe a mineral shortage or something.




Hello!
I hope I can help you. My problem was similar for more than 2 years, I thought that I give up dealing with orchids because this problem. I tried everything, drier conditions, cinnamon, Cu, every fungicides, all of were insufficient. This diseases killed many of my catts, eg. dowiana rosita ( I was very sad...), symptoms were similar: all of new growths turned to black and died. All of new, otherwise healthy plants were put in my greenhouse showed the sign of diseases within few days: started new growts rotted black within a week.
After reading many of articles I accused Pseudomonas , it is a bacteria wich is resistent against fungicides, of course, spreads with water ( even by humidifier, tha explains rapid spreading)quickly.
After than I spayed my plants with ciprofloxacine and using 1,5 ml/l NaOCl 5% solution for desinfecting water. Symptoms disappeared within a week and can't be seen in my culture for more than a year.


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## Erythrone (Dec 27, 2012)

Rick said:


> The label was upside down on the web, so I might have missed them by the time I flipped and scrunched the label.
> 
> I saw the trichoderma on the Sub Culture M though.
> 
> reviewing the labels I see T. harzianum for SC B, but SC M has both T harzianum and T. konigii.



So it should better to use SC M???


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## NYEric (Dec 27, 2012)

You cant just walk into a store and get Cipro.


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## Rick (Dec 27, 2012)

Erythrone said:


> So it should better to use SC M???



Probably if you think that probiotics will do it for you. My results were very mixed back in 2008 when I was still using high K fertilizer.

I also think if the chemical environment (TDS mix) of your substrate is poor to start with, then it won't make a difference. Especially in the long term.

So I think best bet is to get a TDS meter, flush pots down to as low as they will get, innoculate, and then feed at much lower rates than previous to keep TDS at bay.


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## Erythrone (Dec 27, 2012)

dodidoki said:


> Hello!
> I hope I can help you. My problem was similar for more than 2 years, I thought that I give up dealing with orchids because this problem. I tried everything, drier conditions, cinnamon, Cu, every fungicides, all of were insufficient. This diseases killed many of my catts, eg. dowiana rosita ( I was very sad...), symptoms were similar: all of new growths turned to black and died. All of new, otherwise healthy plants were put in my greenhouse showed the sign of diseases within few days: started new growts rotted black within a week.
> After reading many of articles I accused Pseudomonas , it is a bacteria wich is resistent against fungicides, of course, spreads with water ( even by humidifier, tha explains rapid spreading)quickly.
> After than I spayed my plants with ciprofloxacine and using 1,5 ml/l NaOCl 5% solution for desinfecting water. Symptoms disappeared within a week and can't be seen in my culture for more than a year.



IMO antibiotist should be used only for humain disease... Antibiotic resistance poses a significant problem.


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## TyroneGenade (Dec 28, 2012)

Erythrone said:


> IMO antibiotist should be used only for humain disease... Antibiotic resistance poses a significant problem.



I am of similar opinion, but the advice you gave, dodidoki, is still good. Seems my original idea of spraying everything down with dilute H2O2 was a good one.

Pseudomonas are naturally antibiotic resistant. Any bacterium is resistant to at least 2 antibiotics so a medical treatment for them is normally a cocktail of 3 antibiotics. Not a good idea for plants... 

I will proceed with H2O2 spraying as well as a little bleach in the water. When you say 1.5 mL 5% bleach, to what volume is that 1.5 mL added? 

Thanks


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## dodidoki (Dec 28, 2012)

TyroneGenade said:


> I am of similar opinion, but the advice you gave, dodidoki, is still good. Seems my original idea of spraying everything down with dilute H2O2 was a good one.
> 
> Pseudomonas are naturally antibiotic resistant. Any bacterium is resistant to at least 2 antibiotics so a medical treatment for them is normally a cocktail of 3 antibiotics. Not a good idea for plants...
> 
> ...



Oh, yes, 1,5 ml 5% bleach added to one liter.


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## dodidoki (Dec 28, 2012)

dodidoki said:


> Oh, yes, 1,5 ml 5% bleach added to one liter.



I tried peroxide, too, but my opinion it hurts the tip of roots especially in cattleyas. Bleach doesn't do that for a long time.


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## dodidoki (Dec 28, 2012)

Erythrone said:


> IMO antibiotist should be used only for humain disease... Antibiotic resistance poses a significant problem.



Don't worry, I don't use antibiotics regulary, I used only once ( otherwise antibiotics could be toxic for plants, too), after I tried all of usual ways and chemicals and none of them was effective.


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## TyroneGenade (Dec 28, 2012)

dodidoki said:


> I tried peroxide, too, but my opinion it hurts the tip of roots especially in cattleyas. Bleach doesn't do that for a long time.



Thanks! That is good advice. Bleach it will be.


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## cnycharles (Dec 28, 2012)

peroxide and near equivalents have been used on seedlings and cuttings in the misting stage with no damage to any plant part, so it is likely if you were seeing root damage it was at too strong of a concentration (though it definitely isn't out of the question that some plant would rebel against a weak peroxide treatment). I sprayed plants with peroxide directly out of the bottle a few times onto mealybugs (yes, bugs....) and didn't see any damage with the one treatment. at that rate, however, I did some damage to leaves after three applications, but that was also at a higher rate than I had read on the internet to use


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## Rick (Dec 28, 2012)

Thing is things like chlorine bleach and peroxide are general oxidants and go after all life forms (not just pathogenic organisms). Survival is based on how big the organism is, and how much tissue can be burned away without loosing viability.

Plants are pretty big compared to microbes, but it always cracks me up as a toxicologist when I see larval fish getting killed almost instantly at the same low dose of chlorine that we routinely drink (or water our plants with), and we don't even realize that some part of us, or the plant and pot flora that is of beneficial use is getting knocked back too.

We frequently see pathogenic strains of bacteria getting a certain amount of resistance to fairly high doses of chlorine. I see a lot of biology going on in cooling towers were regular or constant applications of biocides (such as chlorine bleach) are employed. Some of the fungi that come out of these environments are particularly scary. I've seen them "decompose" living fish in a matter of hours.

Typically habitats that recieve chronic low doses of biocides end up with really tough scary populations of bugs, that require sporadic heavy "shock treatment" with massive doses of the biocides to knock them back in line.


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## Erythrone (Dec 28, 2012)

Rick said:


> Probably if you think that probiotics will do it for you. My results were very mixed back in 2008 when I was still using high K fertilizer.
> 
> I also think if the chemical environment (TDS mix) of your substrate is poor to start with, then it won't make a difference. Especially in the long term.
> 
> So I think best bet is to get a TDS meter, flush pots down to as low as they will get, innoculate, and then feed at much lower rates than previous to keep TDS at bay.




Many thanks Rick!


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## TyroneGenade (Dec 31, 2012)

Rick said:


> Typically habitats that recieve chronic low doses of biocides end up with really tough scary populations of bugs, that require sporadic heavy "shock treatment" with massive doses of the biocides to knock them back in line.



Yeah, in my aquarium I have a population of hair algae which is totally resistant to glutaraldehyde. Thankfully, potassium permanganate still hurts it as does a direct application of 30% H2O2. I'm amazed by how quickly these nasties evolve to cope with what we subject them to.

I've begun dosing with bleach and will continue to do so every 2 days until I stop seeing problems. My Paph Silverlight's new leaf rotted sometime yesterday. It looked fine on Saturday and this morning it was rotted to the base. The plant is still healthy so it should respond with a new growth but if that too rots then that will be the end of it. Grrr! I hope the bleach does the job. At this rate, in a year or so I will have no viable orchids left.


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## TyroneGenade (Jan 11, 2013)

Hello,

A question for dodidoki: how long a period did you continue to water the plants with the bleach? I haven't seen any rotted new growths for a little while now and it looks like some plants may actually manage to get a new growth out now. I am probably going to continue spraying once a week from this point onwards until I'm sure... but would like to know how long it took you to solve the problem you had.

Thanks


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## TyroneGenade (Jan 16, 2013)

Grr! Still spraying/watering with bleach every 2nd or 3rd day and to no avail. My Stanhopea's leaves were perfect yesterday and today they are rotten---only one of the two plants.

I have also been spraying with some extra Ca/Mg (3:1) in the water. 

The new growth of my alba philippinense has also rotted off. I'm now very fed-up and have resigned myself to watching the collection slowly die. Whatever survives, well good for it, but it seems I can't win.


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## dodidoki (Jan 16, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> Grr! Still spraying/watering with bleach every 2nd or 3rd day and to no avail. My Stanhopea's leaves were perfect yesterday and today they are rotten---only one of the two plants.
> 
> I have also been spraying with some extra Ca/Mg (3:1) in the water.
> 
> The new growth of my alba philippinense has also rotted off. I'm now very fed-up and have resigned myself to watching the collection slowly die. Whatever survives, well good for it, but it seems I can't win.



Hello!

Beach solution won't heal the sick plants, especially slippers. Bleach solution ( as I wrote 5% 1,5 ml/ one litre water) only protect healthy plants against rot. I lost many plants, too.
I use it continously not for spraying but I give 3 dl bleach into 200 L rain water holder. I use this water for watering, but I never spray my plant, only two ultrasonic humidifier keep air humidity around 75-80%. Even more I switch of humidifiers after watering till all leaves become dry.


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## dodidoki (Jan 16, 2013)

Problem solved in about 2 months. I haven't seen this problem about one and half year.


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## TyroneGenade (Jan 16, 2013)

Ok, I will keep at it for the next 2 months. My gripe is that these are healthy growths turning rotten. Oh well... at worst this will give me an excuse to start over...


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## keithrs (Jan 16, 2013)

You may want to take a big swing and use a bactericide. I have had success with Phyton 27. Also, I would suggest to dry your plants and growing area out. The more you water the more you'll spread it. 

Good luck... It's not easy to rid plants of infections.


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## Cheyenne (Jan 16, 2013)

I was going to suggest to dry them out too. I am sure you know, but I am always surprised how long they can really dry out with no damage. Especially since I try to water every five to seven days. Whenever I get rot I remove the infected tissue and put the plant away from the other ones and let it dry for a few weeks. If I mist or water the plant to soon the rot comes back immediately. But in the cases that I really dry out the plant I can usually get it to stop. Then when I water again things plump up and go back to normal.


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## cnycharles (Jan 16, 2013)

the drying, and if you haven't tried using peroxide, I would. it basically burns up rotten type things and that which causes them and while decomposing gets some oxygen into the system. not that they made need that, but try it out.. take a something that has started to rot and spray it all around with peroxide. there are things online which give rates, but i've dumped straight peroxide on phal growths and had good results


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## Hera (Jan 16, 2013)

Have you cleared out the growing space and sprayed down the benches , walls and floors with a bacteriacide? Spores permeate the growing area and it might be time for a good cleaning. Forgive me if I am repeating someone.


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## TyroneGenade (Jan 18, 2013)

Thanks for the advice. I think I must just keep at it. Around here the weather is hot and windy so plants dry out very fast: plants in stone need almost daily watering, and plants in bark every 3-4 days. 

If I don't see any improvement in a months time then I will try the peroxide etc... The whole area is swept out weekly and the area left to dry. I think that perhaps a repot is in order.


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## keithrs (Jan 18, 2013)

H2O2 gos great with repots! Wink wink


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## TyroneGenade (Jan 19, 2013)

Ho Keith,

Thanks for the subtle hint.

I forgot to mention, that I water about 2x a week and the rest I spray/mist. so I'm either watering with the bleach or spraying. I had been bleaching/fertilizing alternatingly but I think I will stick to bleaching for now.

Over the next week I will start repotting and quarantining symptomatic plants (not that I think there are any unaffected plants).

Thanks for all the help.


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## jtrmd (Jan 19, 2013)

This time last year I had the same issue.It took about a month to get it completely under control with a combo of Green Sheild,Bleach,and then Phyton 27.Plus getting on my hands and knees to pick up every last piece of dead leaves,bark,etc off the GH floor that I missed in the Fall.Any of the ''Junk'' plants just got tossed,and didn't bother with trying to save them.


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## Justin (Jan 19, 2013)

i'm sure this has been covered in this thread, but when i was having rot problems it was partially due to mineral deficiencies in my watering & feeding program.

good luck!


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## Rick (Jan 19, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> Ho Keith,
> Over the next week I will start repotting and quarantining symptomatic plants (not that I think there are any unaffected plants).



This is a total epidemic that I've never encountered before. How many total plants are effected (or lost) and what percentage of the population is this?


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## TyroneGenade (Jan 21, 2013)

Hi Rick,

It looks like everything is affected. The moment anything starts a new growth the new growth rots from the leaf tips down. This weekend I found that one of the two growths on my Dendrochilum wenzelii had rotted... I suspect the source of the infection was the organic fertilizer I was spraying a while back. It was derived from earth worm cultures...

So far the only plants which are unaffected are:
Masdevallia tovarensis
Paph. insigne
Paph. Leeanum
There are several other Paphs which have not lost growths but also haven't put out any new growths...
I had previously thought my Restrepia were immune but several new growths also rotted. The only plant which lost mature growths was my Phrag bessae which went from 4 mature growths to one (and that one doesn't look happy). My Den. virginalis and Nobile hybrid seems OK but the kingianum and speciosum lost several growths. Both the Den virginalis and Nobile hybrid was far away from the other plants when they were sending out new growth so this does seem to be some sort of contagion. The Neofinetia and Renanthera is also, so far, unscathed. I am not sure if the Phals are resistant. I lost a lot of Phals this last year but I think it was neglect more than anything else.

Affected plants are: Tolumnia, Restrepia, Paphs, Phrags, Catts/Laelia, Dens, Cymbidiums, Dendrochilums, Masdevallia and Stanhopea.

I have started adding Ca/Mg to my water. 

Jtrmd, your experiences give me some encouragement. I am now only watering/spraying with the bleach solution and hope this will prove effective.


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## Rick (Jan 21, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> Hi Rick,
> I have started adding Ca/Mg to my water.



Is there any way to get Hardness/alkalinity/conductivity values for your water, and points in between when the plants see it?


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## TyroneGenade (Jan 22, 2013)

Hi Rick,

No... Our tap water is generally soft (about 1-2 GH). I'm supplementing now with Ca/Mg up to the levels in the MSU fertilizers.

In the past, soft water hasn't been a problem.


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## TyroneGenade (Jan 23, 2013)

Some photos of the problem:












In the picks you can see a Catt Trick or Treat and Dendrobium kingianum. The new growths had withered back (rotted and then stopped). There is no damage to the pseudobulbs (they are even sending out roots). Since watering with the bleach some new growths have come along better but I am not sure they are viable. The Catt growth has stalled, not growing any more for about a month now. (The L. anceps in the background, I think, is pretty much wasted, having run out of nodes to sprout new growth.) Root tips are green and growing so I don't think this a bleach problem.


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## Faan (Jan 23, 2013)

What I will do is to cut away the rotten pieces as in my experience most of these "attacks" do not like fresh air and will dry up in a few day's time. Leave the wound open and give it lots of fresh air. 
My concern is always that if you put something on that is wet it will just make the problem worse, unless it is something that will dry the "wound" fairly quickly.
Sometimes I have experienced that when the air circulation is not that good I could find a small area in the leave that would start a fungal or bacterial rot. I would put a needle or something similar into the area and open it up. In most cases the rotting will stop and become dry in a short period of time.

When it is like in your pictures I think you do not have much of a choice to cut the bad pieces away. The bad news is that by the time you remove those affected pieces the "sickness" could have been into the rest of the plant although you cannot see it.


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## dodidoki (Jan 23, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> Some photos of the problem:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes, I had exactly the same disease. It is pseudomonas cattleyae. But as I can see, potting media is not right. You should use only bark for catts, 2-2,5 cm size. I usually put in the bottom of pot some clay for draining water.


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## TyroneGenade (Jan 23, 2013)

Hello dodidoki, and thank for confirming. Why I hadn't posted photos before I don't know... But at least know I can be a bit more confident in my bleaching the plants.

Faan, your advice about pricking the infected tissue is what I have been doing, more or less. I think once the tissue is open to the air the bacteria can't progress---kind of like gangrene.


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## Rick (Jan 27, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> Hi Rick,
> 
> No... Our tap water is generally soft (about 1-2 GH). I'm supplementing now with Ca/Mg up to the levels in the MSU fertilizers.
> 
> In the past, soft water hasn't been a problem.



However, it can take years for plants to build up excess K in their tissues that ultimately make them sensitive to disease. This is especially the case if you are adding true calcareous materials to your potting mix at intervals while having your soft water wash it away in between. It's a push-pull based on rates of fertilizing, pot amending/repotting, and watering. 

I converted your German Hardness values to mg/L CaCO3 which comes out to (~) 18 to 36 mg/L CaCO3) which is indeed considered soft (low Ca/Mg water). Note that even though the units are expressed as Calcium Carbonate, there doesn't have to be any carbonate in the system at all. In European convention, carbonate is often labeled as KH hardness, but I know it as Alkalinity (also expressed as a CaCO3 unit). For plants/animals, the need for Ca/Mg (as US hardness values) is distinct from the need for carbonate/bicarbonate buffer (as US alkalinity).

What forms of Ca and Mg are you adding to your MSU? When I first came up with the low K system I cut the amount of MSU and "diluted" it with Calcium nitrate and MgSO4 (Epsom salt).


This feeding regime cannot "cure" infected plants, but makes all the subsequent new growth tougher and disease resistant.


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## TyroneGenade (Jan 28, 2013)

Hi Rick,

If I recall correctly, I it is a solution of calcium chloride and magnesium sulfate. For some odd reason I didn't list the contents (and concentrations) on the bottle, only the dose (2 mL to 1 L). When it is done I will need to rethink the mix. 

I have lots of new growth coming and I am hopeful that some of these will make it.

I have an expert visiting me this coming Friday to have a look and give some advice.

Thanks for your advice.


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## Rick (Jan 28, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> Hi Rick,
> 
> If I recall correctly, I it is a solution of calcium chloride and magnesium sulfate. For some odd reason I didn't list the contents (and concentrations) on the bottle, only the dose (2 mL to 1 L). When it is done I will need to rethink the mix.
> 
> ...



You might consider some basic hardness and alkalinty test kits from an aqurium supply (or on-line). It sounds like you are flying blind on your water conditions.


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## TyroneGenade (Jan 29, 2013)

Ah, found it. The mix would give 56 ppm Ca and 48 ppm Mg in the fertilizer solution (given the soft tap water, I haven't bothered to factor it into the formulation). The salts were both chlorides. This would give 2 mol Ca per mol Mg.


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## Bjorn (Apr 9, 2013)

Tyrone,
Has there been any progress?
B


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## TyroneGenade (Apr 9, 2013)

Hello,

I'm glad you asked! At the end of Feb I stopped bleaching the plants and there hasn't been any more casualties or than a Paph godefroudae "dwarf" which wasn't looking good. I am not sure if it was the bleach, the Ca/Mg added to the fertilizer or moving the plants into a more sunny spot but my Trick or Treat has managed to get two growths up and there haven't been any more casualties. Of course, I will go home to day and find another... In any case, I have now given up and what must die must die.

The bleach (and I used a higher concentration than suggested!) did not seem to hurt the plants at all. I haven't noticed any improvement in leaf color due to the Ca/Mg or move into the sun. It does look like the growths are a bit stiffer though.

Hope that helps.


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## Mathias (Apr 9, 2013)

I have had exactly the same problems as you show in your pictures. In my case I believe it was/is a deficiency of Ca or Mg. I had used an organic fertilizer that turned out to be high in K and low in Ca/Mg in combination with RO-water. The Ca that was in the fertilizer was in a slow release form. I have used K-lite and MSU for a few months ans added well water and things have improved. Hopefully I will have nice growths coming now in spring.


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## Bjorn (Apr 10, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> Hello,
> 
> The bleach (and I used a higher concentration than suggested!) did not seem to hurt the plants at all. I haven't noticed any improvement in leaf color due to the Ca/Mg or move into the sun. It does look like the growths are a bit stiffer though.
> 
> Hope that helps.



I am on a regularly basis troubled with similar symptoms on my cattleyas, but not only new leads, also older mature leaves can get it. It seems normally to be the last one though. I do not think that it is a deficiency, I am more leaning towarsd pseudomonas as didioki has pointed out. The fact that bleaching helps, points in the direction of some pathogen. The link to mineral deficincy may be that with e.g. too high potassium, the natural resistance of the plants are weakened and the outbreak gets more virulent. Although I have it regularly, I do not consider it a major problem, simply because it does not spread that much.
Guess we should pay more attention to the plants immune system, and that is probably the main benefit from reducing K and boosting Ca and Mg. Personally I add Si to that list, you may check my threads on that matter.


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## TyroneGenade (Apr 10, 2013)

Interestingly, at our last orchid meeting there was a plant pathologist and he exclaimed that behind leaf spotting, rot etc... he almost always found that the plants had a magnesium deficiency. Perhaps you should be misting your plants with a Mg solution? Or working some Mg carbonate into the substrate?


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## Bjorn (Apr 10, 2013)

They are all mounted so it must be as solution. I did that previously, but the situation was exactly (or worse) adding Mg-sulphate. For the last year or so K-lite has been used.


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## Trithor (Apr 10, 2013)

Hi Tyrone,
I have been reading this thread over the last few days, and was saddened to find out about your problem and the resultant losses. I hope the problem corrects itself. 
I had a similar situation about 18 years ago. I nearly lost my whole collection. When it was over, I was so disillusioned that I gave the remaining plants away, and stopped growing orchids for about 12 years. 
I hope your situation does not have a similar effect on you. I now tend to overreact to any potential rot problem, quarantine affected plants and treat the whole greenhouse as if they are all affected.


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## TyroneGenade (Apr 11, 2013)

Well, this morning I had a look at the Trick or Treat and again, some young new growths had rotted centres so the problem hasn't gone away. Seems the bleach was the major factor in getting some good growths. It is still only the new growth and leaves which are affected. My Dendrochilum wenzelli is shooting now so back to the bleach for a bit... Its pushing out 6 new growths from two leads so I don't want to loose this one. Its doing so well... all things considered.

Trithor, I am unlikely to give up. I just need some hope for the fight.


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## Rick (Apr 15, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> Interestingly, at our last orchid meeting there was a plant pathologist and he exclaimed that behind leaf spotting, rot etc... he almost always found that the plants had a magnesium deficiency. Perhaps you should be misting your plants with a Mg solution? Or working some Mg carbonate into the substrate?



Excess K causes the plant to reduce Mg uptake. Adding more Mg (via epsom salts) can help some, but it is fighting an uphill battle if you don't reduce K.

Secondarily Mg should not exceed Ca chronically, and can cause another set of problems.

So if you don't reduce K, then try some judicious use of a Cal/Mag supplement rather than straight Epsom salt. But I would avoid the "adding to compensate for antagonism spiral". Eventually you just hit the TDS wall.


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## TyroneGenade (Apr 16, 2013)

Yes, Rick. You are quite right. I maintain planted aquariums with high light and CO2 and deficiencies develop very often. The impulse is to add to make up for the deficiency but then you get a news set of problems... I've learnt to rather step back and let the system reach a "balance" by itself while correcting my overall fertilizer schedule. So, now when I dose with anything I make sure I dose in proportion of other nutrients. If the dose doesn't work, then I change the proportion rather than supplement.

I am trying this approach with the orchids as well. When I fertilize with the Seagrow I add Mg/Ca into the solution at the MSU concentrations. So far this is working well. Growths do look better. Time will tell if I am getting accumulation problems. I have also repotted into a different substrate: plain sandstone gravel for the Paphs and many others with some leaf litter worked in for moisture retention and fertilizer. I had done some experiments with Complex Paphs previously, potting them in gravel and leaf litter, and this worked well. I got both good root growth and plant growth (but these were not fertilized in any way other than leaf litter). Time will tell if it is working.


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## Trithor (Apr 17, 2013)

That Seagrow stuff is yuck! There are even bits of decomposed fish skeletons in it. Are you sure this is not the source of your ongoing problem.
I have had 50kg of 'K-lite' mixed up by a big fertilizer company, I am going to package and distribute it through the Orchid Council at cost if you are interested. I am sure it will need a bit of tweeking, but I am confident that I will have it sorted soon.


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## TyroneGenade (Apr 18, 2013)

I only started using Seagrow after the epidemic and it quickly brought plants back into health and got them growing... But I am interested in the K-lite...

tt4n


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## Trithor (Apr 18, 2013)

TyroneGenade said:


> I only started using Seagrow after the epidemic and it quickly brought plants back into health and got them growing... But I am interested in the K-lite...
> 
> tt4n



Tyrone,
I am collecting the first batch of fertilizer tomorrow, as well as mag nitrate and calcium nitrate as separate components, will keep you updated. I am not sure how homogenous it will be, but I am excited.


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