# tigrinum - once again



## Bjorn (Aug 2, 2013)

Two years ago, I bought two seedlings, small ones, just some 2-3inch leaf span. I knew from before that this was not straight forward, since I had already lost one to rot, but decided to try again. The seedlings thrived and grew at a really good speed. and then the rot came. This time I was prepared so by proper cultural practices (rapid drying fans etc) I have been able to continue growing them. Then in April or May this year - now after almost two years in my posession, the following appeared on both of them:
Detail (May 30 2013)



Both plants



Yes, buds. What next? Reading this forum revealed that tigers are notorious bud-blasters, particularly whan young - as mine were- and that I should not expect sucessful flowering this time. So I decided to ignore all advices like keeping them crisp dry in the crown etc and just pour water over them as if nothing had happened. After all, these guys are from a monsoon area and the flowering is during the wet season so....well it sounded strange that they should blast because of humidity. Other factor might perfectly well blast them though, my suspicion goes to temperature fluctuations or more precisely: lack of. If it is not cold enough during night, the buds may blast. Keeping low temperatures at night is probably easier here in Norway than in most other places, but during summer, unless you move the plants outdoors it has its limitations. So, my plants have been subjected to a temperature regime of 17-18C at night and close to 30 at day. Humidity high, say 80%. The lower temperatures have increased though so now it may be 20 or so at the very low.
Ok, bud development was painfully slow but eventually it started to accelerate. But only one of them, the other blasted. One week ago it finally opened and here is the result. Picture from yesterday August 1 2013.




sideways:


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## Stone (Aug 2, 2013)

Bjorn, If you don't mind me saying so, I don't like all that moss covering the mix. A combination of that plus a plastic pot and you are sooner or later bound to run into trouble from various rots. especially from an epiphyte like tigrinum.
Nevertheless, a beautiful flower and excellent job with the malipos as well!


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## Secundino (Aug 2, 2013)

Wow, congrats for this sucessful flowering!!

And to your theory, I agree. 
I noticed those roundish dark (orange) dry spots on both your _malipoense_ and this _tigrinum_ (there is a second, soft and wet rot, isn't there, photos can be misleading though...) and these spots reminded those I had on a newly adquired 'Moustache' early this year ( http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=410879&highlight=leaves#post410879 ) . 
Of course, after noticing the 'rot' I kept them dry, but eventually I began watering again. This winter was very warm (high night temps!) and there was nearly no difference between max temps (23º) and min temps (20º). 
Now this plant sits outside, with much more light, even sun spotting on the leaves, it is watered daily and the temps have a difference of 12ºC ! No more spots! Plant (and roots) are growing well! 
That would match your observations, keeping in mind the differences between the needs of _tigrinum_ and a multifloral. 

Big envy as always when I see the mosses grow on your pics - that is water quality!


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## Bjorn (Aug 2, 2013)

Mike, you are right, for tigrinum, the moss plus plastic pot is not a good choice, that is why I lifted the plant a bit in the flowering pictures. You might notice its in kind of raised position. I belive that tigers have to be treated as were they epifytes - which they are.The rest of the moss is a bit seasonal, I remove it and then during winter mostly, it returns. It is a very "springy" type though and does not absorb so much water nor gets very dense, in this link you can have a look at it. http://www.bbsfieldguide.org.uk/sites/default/files/pdfs/mosses/Rhytidiadelphus_loreus.pdf
So I am not very concerned about it unless it gets too much. Then I remove it.


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## Bjorn (Aug 2, 2013)

Secundino said:


> Wow, congrats for this sucessful flowering!!
> 
> And to your theory, I agree.
> I noticed those roundish dark (orange) dry spots on both your _malipoense_ and this _tigrinum_ (there is a second, soft and wet rot, isn't there, photos can be misleading though...) and these spots reminded those I had on a newly adquired 'Moustache' early this year ( http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=410879&highlight=leaves#post410879 ) .
> ...



Thanks Secun, water quality is very important. I use 100% Natural water, which means unprocessed rain or surface water(soft). To that I add fertilizers (my own mix) plus soluble silica. since I started with silicon addition, I feel that the rate of rot and decease has declined. But as the improvement probably only affects new growth one should not expect quick improvements. I guess that you refer to the leaf with erwinia in the first picture? The plant is doing well, but the leaf of course is not. tigrinum has an astonishing capability of producing new leads so actually that plant which is the one that blasted, now looks better than the flowering. Except the flower of course.


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## Dido (Aug 2, 2013)

Did you ever try plastic pots with 90% holes in it, as you use it for cattleya like a basket I use it for my micranthums with really great success the roots get better and runners all over. the fastes grwoth I ever had of them....

Or you can try a basket. 

By the way a nice plant, could you safe pollen for me.


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## Bjorn (Aug 2, 2013)

Dido,
you mean those plastic net pots that they use for aquatics? No, I have not considered it, am afraid that it gets too dry. But on the other side, worth a try I guess. The plant is from Hilmar, so probably Tigerland x self. Did I tell you that I got a bunch of seedlings from Elsner as well? could try your idea with a few of those - grows like weed. About the pollen, I need a mail with details for that.
B


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## Dido (Aug 2, 2013)

Here is a pic of my pots

If micranthum make it Tigrinum could do too, I can send you some pots if you want. 
dont you have my address, I have moss on the outside and Kanuma, bark, perlite inside. 
Elsner you told me 




Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## Bjorn (Aug 2, 2013)

Ok, Dido found your adress. I think I have a few of such pots somewhere.


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## Dido (Aug 2, 2013)

If not I can send you soem fro trials. 

By the way elsner told me she use the biggest bark she could fien for them, as she think this is one of the keys.


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## Bjorn (Aug 2, 2013)

Thanks, seems important to treat themas epifytes obviously. I'll PM you


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## NYEric (Aug 2, 2013)

Nice tiger, congrats.


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## Paphman910 (Aug 2, 2013)

Really beautiful! Wow!


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## Ozpaph (Aug 2, 2013)

a wonderful flower


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## emydura (Aug 2, 2013)

That's a great clone. Love the way the petals face forward. Way above average.


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## Rick (Aug 2, 2013)

I totally recommend growing them as epiphytes in baskets.









These were purchased as newly deflasked seedlings from Sheerwood Orchids in 2002. Both of these have been up and down as multigrowth plants, blasting with every growth, and up to 4 growths it's been a case of annual root loss and rots when in pots with various bark or CHC mixes and MSU feeding at 100ppm N.

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7631&highlight=Tigrinum For a couple of years I even had them semi hydro. That did as good or better than any of the potted systems.


As you can see, the one on the left is the surviving fragment of pre basket, high K feeding, but it is already 2X bigger than it was this past winter. The bigger plant (now 10 growths) was always the worst of the two for root and growth rots. It went crazy in basket, and the less I feed it the faster it grows. Actually those baskets are mostly large limestone gravel rather than moss.

Now if I can get the blasting to stop.:wink: Earlier this spring I moved the larger plant to a brighter location. Growth rate is very good, but so far still blasting.


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## Stone (Aug 2, 2013)

Thats a very nice specimen Rick but I don't see any flowers. What's that white s**t on the leaves?
(mines in a basket too and doing very well!)


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## Rick (Aug 2, 2013)

Stone said:


> What's that white s**t on the leaves?
> (mines in a basket too and doing very well!)



White dust (hard water deposits) from the fogger.

It's already blasted 2 spikes this spring, and has two more down low. Up until basket and starvation feed (2011), it's never made it to more than 4-5 growths before going into a rot snit. So maybe it has the momentum this time.

After 10 years of abuse, it may make me pay for another few years!! I have a roth with similar history (a year older actually) and finally seeing the first spike on it!!!


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## Trithor (Aug 3, 2013)

Impressive growth Rick!


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## Justin (Aug 3, 2013)

very nice flower. hope you can find a way to grow them more on the dry side. if you can get Phyton 27, that will help with the rot symptoms.


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## Roth (Aug 3, 2013)

Justin said:


> very nice flower. hope you can find a way to grow them more on the dry side. if you can get Phyton 27, that will help with the rot symptoms.



No, Bjorn got colletotrichium, he needs to use azoxystrobin or a similar systemic fungicide. That's the same fungus doing the spots on the paph malipoense in his other post. 

Paph tigrinum is a complicated species. I grow it very wet, and the Chinese did grow hundreds of clumps before in pure sphagnum moss, soaking wet. They had clumps of some dozen growths this way, easily, and no rot. 

Sometimes we want to grow a plant on the dry side, because it prevents diseases, but in the perfect environment, they can be grown wet. The question is what is the perfect environment for tigrinum...


As for Bjorn colletotrichium, it makes holes in the leaves, circles or half circles, and when it spreads, it makes stripes... The holes in the new leaves of the malipoense are the same disease. It tends to stop when the weather is drier, and resumes when it is cold. It is contagious too.


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## Ozpaph (Aug 3, 2013)

Roth, cant get asoxystrobin in 'hobbist' quantities in Oz. Any other suggestions? Thanks.


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## Roth (Aug 3, 2013)

Ozpaph said:


> Roth, cant get asoxystrobin in 'hobbist' quantities in Oz. Any other suggestions? Thanks.



Triadimefon can do the job, and most of the triazoles ( propiconazole, cyproconazole...). Other than that, thiophanate methyl is no longer effective.


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## Ozpaph (Aug 3, 2013)

Roth said:


> Triadimefon can do the job, and most of the triazoles ( propiconazole, cyproconazole...). Other than that, thiophanate methyl is no longer effective.



Much appreciated. Ill try to look up the commercial names here.


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## Bjorn (Aug 5, 2013)

Thank you for the advices Xavier,
problem here is to get the fungicides, everything quite restricted these days. My personal opinion (as yours is if I understand you right) is that with perfect growing conditions, these things should not be a problem. Strengthening of the plants immune system could be one approach towards the perfect. There are lots of results from other crops indicating that silicon is important to make plants tolerate stress; all kinds - heat, drought, insects, fungi etc. - and the last six months or so, I have been adding soluble silica to my water. Does it help? difficult to say, its a slow process and only long term results will show. I do however have a feeling that things are improving, there has not been any black rot on my Cattleyas, the erwinia(pseudomonas) incidences are fewer and seems not to spread that quickly etc. But is it coincidental or? Difficult to say, but I continue. So far, no negative effects have been seen.


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## SlipperFan (Aug 5, 2013)

Interesting thread. Beautiful tigrinum -- congrats!


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## SlipperKing (Aug 6, 2013)

I recently placed my tiger in a basket as well. I haven't notice any roots poking out yet but I don't doudt they're not far behind. At least its holding its own now.
*Dido,*your parvis look very dry, are they? or do you keep them damp/wet all the time?


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## Dido (Aug 6, 2013)

SlipperKing said:


> I recently placed my tiger in a basket as well. I haven't notice any roots poking out yet but I don't doudt they're not far behind. At least its holding its own now.
> *Dido,*your parvis look very dry, are they? or do you keep them damp/wet all the time?



As I have Kanuma in it, it stays wet longer the shpag I use is dry and I use it only that the Kanuma dont fall out. 
I water often, but they seem to like that, only they dont liked the k lite, since I give my old fertilizer again they started to grow fast, for them its maybe not right. 

Mainly micranthums in at the moment, they seem ton like it only 2 aremniacums and 10 in big baskets, but this micranthum seems not to like....


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