# At it again, this is very frustrating!



## NYEric (Jan 8, 2009)

http://cgi.ebay.com/CG-Cypripedium-...ptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116


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## biothanasis (Jan 8, 2009)

LOL... I was just looking at this seller on ebay at this very moment!!!!! Lots of the names are messed up though!!!!! LOL The pleiones seem nice...


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## NYEric (Jan 8, 2009)

He has about 5 groups of cyps there that would set my hands on fire if I bought them. Since you're in Europe why don't you get some of those!?


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## biothanasis (Jan 8, 2009)

LOL... I recently bought some Cyps (different species) at lower prices and I cannot afford these prices...!!! LOL I was thinking of the pleiones before...! The S&H is much lower to your country...


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## NYEric (Jan 8, 2009)

The point is those species he's offering are tres hot!!!


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## biothanasis (Jan 8, 2009)

NYEric said:


> The point is those species he's offering are tres hot!!!



:rollhappy::rollhappy::drool::drool:


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## kentuckiense (Jan 8, 2009)

I thought that seller came here and made some little pledge to stop selling wild collected plants. I guess that didn't last very long.

All of his Cypripediums are wild collected, difficult to grow species, and will likely die if purchased and grown by anyone other than an accomplished Cypripedium grower.

So, please don't purchase these Cyps. They will die and you will only be facilitating and encouraging more (and often illegal) collecting of wild Cypripediums.


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## biothanasis (Jan 8, 2009)

That is what I thought Ken, cause of the Cyp lichiangiense that is sold and I remember your advice on this... Thanks again for the tip!!!


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## kentuckiense (Jan 8, 2009)

I encourage anyone thinking about growing Cyps to read Tom's enlightening run-down of species: http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6700

As for the species ChineseGreen is offering:

"new species" = album guttatum
"smithii" = calcicolum


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## biothanasis (Jan 8, 2009)

WOW!!! I hadn't seen these posts of Tom so far! Thanks Ken!!!


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## Hien (Jan 8, 2009)

NYEric said:


> The point is those species he's offering are tres hot!!!



I am not sure that they are really forbidden fruits & not existing in the USA already.
Quite a few nurseries in the USA carrying them before in the past (maybe back 10 or so years ago).
I don't remember exactly which species anymore, but I am pretty sure the ones that were sold in USA were asians & not the common US native cyps (At that time my taste had not been sophisticate at all, so I did not buy them [not that my taste is any better now], I thought all orchids are the same, and I preferred phals, dens, catts etc... at the time)
So someone in the US are probably still growing them from those plants that were sold legally in the past.
Many years ago, Dragon Agro of New Jersey used to have many of these fancy cyps .(one that made the impression in my memory was the tibeticum). So obviously someone were capable to grow & propagate them.
We all fail in the ones peoples think easy, and vice versa. So it should not be a blanket statement that something is impossible to grow or propagate.
By the way, perhaps the number of sophisticate growers are not many, as a result, the growers can not make money selling high-art plants. First hand witness, I saw Dragon Agro selling phals & dens like hot cakes (you know the garden varieties) at the last GREATER NEW YORK ORCHID SOCIETY show at Rockefeller center .


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## cnycharles (Jan 8, 2009)

on the plant listings they say that they're located in florida, but if you look down on plant descriptions they are 'sent from china'. so, is this deceptive advertising or are they actually in florida but originally from china?


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## NYEric (Jan 8, 2009)

Oh, with those plants and in the numbers listed I know they're not in the USA. It was just annoying to see them listed, so close and yet so far! 
BTW Hien, I tried and failed a few years ago w/ some of Pearl & Tito's cyps!


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jan 9, 2009)

As far as I know, cyps are not Appendix 1, and can be shipped with internationally with proper paperwork. The paphs are all in flask...and, unlike the other Chinese and Thai people on Ebay, he at least offers paperwork on the wholesale stuff...lets see if it can go through with the hangianum flask....not the best situation, but better than a lot of what I've seen from asia on Ebay. Take care, Eric


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## NYEric (Jan 9, 2009)

Well, if any of you wholesale owners can get some of those cyps [that aren't available] at a 'wholesale' cost I'm sure you'll find customers here!


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## Hien (Jan 9, 2009)

NYEric said:


> Well, if any of you wholesale owners can get some of those cyps [that aren't available] at a 'wholesale' cost I'm sure you'll find customers here!


 Eric,
you spent so much time volunteer at the GNYOS shows that you did not pay attention to what was sold.
Had you buy some of the rare asian cyps like tibeticum from Dragon Agro at those earlier shows, they would not have to stop raising cyps, and sell Taiwanese phal & dens instead to make a living.oke:


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## SlipperKing (Jan 9, 2009)

Hien said:


> Eric,
> you spent so much time volunteer at the GNYOS shows that you did not pay attention to what was sold.
> Had you buy some of the rare asian cyps like tibeticum from Dragon Agro at those earlier shows, they would not have to stop raising cyps, and sell Taiwanese phal & dens instead to make a living.oke:


You funny Hien:rollhappy:


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## NYEric (Jan 9, 2009)

Hien, don't forget those ever-popular heart shape plants!  
PS if I had spent any more money at the GNYOS show I wouldn't have hands to type w/ now!


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## KyushuCalanthe (Jan 9, 2009)

Definitely taken from the wild to be sold on the world market. The vast majority of Cyps coming out of China go back to one source, a "famous" exporter (a least in woodland perennial plant circles) who continues to successfully get plants out of the country. I guess it pays to have friends in high places.

A number of growers in Europe and the US have been working with micropropagating the Cyps making it out and at this point many have been successfully grown from seed. Having said that, US growers are not openly selling any of them. The reason is simple, they could get busted and their entire collections could be confiscated. It has happened to a few already. Enforcement of CITES is variable depending on the country. The US is very strict, but Canada much more lax. Same with the EU countries - plants are around for sale and 90% were wild taken. A number of species were grown in Germany before CITES took effect, so that is one way documentation has been created for some - they were in effect "grandfathered-in".  Some of these have been exported to the US via different sources, most notably Paul Christian in the UK (one plant that comes to mind is C. froschii).

The flood of Chinese plants that hit the market in the late 90's were all wild collected. Like the bonanza on Paph. armeniacum and Paph. micranthum in the late 80's, the flow was unchecked for several years, but eventually the hammer came down. That is why you don't see them being sold openly anymore. The source didn't dry up, the regulations got tougher. BTW, most of those original plants that made it to the states entered into a veritable black hole - no body is talking about them so they are either dead or people are quietly growing them. Within the EU and Canada plants are more openly talked about and are being sold.

Take heart though Cyp growers! Due to the efforts of a number of people, more are coming available each year. One wholesaler in Belgium, Phytesia, in particular has been propagating and distributing a large number of species worldwide. As far as I know these are documented. Other companies have been busy as well, notably Judith Prins in Belgium, Paul Christian, Orchids by Post in the UK, and Werner Frosch in Germany (most of his stuff is hybrids, but not all). Others exist as well. Regarding Chinese companies, the only one that is micropropagating that I know of is Hengduan Mountains Biotechnology, LTD. in Sichuan. They aren't exporting yet, but keep your eyes open for plants in the coming years.


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## NYEric (Jan 9, 2009)

Thanx for the info - _waiting._


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## Hien (Jan 9, 2009)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> ....
> 
> Take heart though Cyp growers! Due to the efforts of a number of people, more are coming available each year. One wholesaler in Belgium, Phytesia, in particular has been propagating and distributing a large number of species worldwide. As far as I know these are documented. Other companies have been busy as well, notably Judith Prins in Belgium, Paul Christian, Orchids by Post in the UK, and Werner Frosch in Germany (most of his stuff is hybrids, but not all). Others exist as well. Regarding Chinese companies, the only one that is micropropagating that I know of is Hengduan Mountains Biotechnology, LTD. in Sichuan. They aren't exporting yet, but keep your eyes open for plants in the coming years.



Yes , I remember read about Biotechnology effort that you mentioned in the AOS magazine. Did it involve some German scientist?
I will bet you that the exporting of orchids all over the world can & will happen very soon, for one thing the chineses are very practical (specially, regarding business & commerce). They are one of the best peoples when it comes to business.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Jan 9, 2009)

Hien said:


> Yes , I remember read about Biotechnology effort that you mentioned in the AOS magazine. Did it involve some German scientist?
> I will bet you that the exporting of orchids all over the world can & will happen very soon, for one thing the chineses are very practical (specially, regarding business & commerce). They are one of the best peoples when it comes to business.



You remember correctly Hien. The German doctor is Holger Perner. At some point plants will be sold abroad, but when is an interesting question. Last year he was fishing around for interest abroad, but outside of Japan he didn't catch any "big fish"...so exporting to the States and Europe may be more spotty. The bottom line is that small orders means small money, and most folks aren't interested. That is particularly true for the CITES covered stuff since it is so expensive to line everything up legally. Add to that this current recession and...who knows! The same situation exists here in Japan - most growers aren't interested in exporting because the hassle isn't worth the dough.


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## Hakone (Jan 10, 2009)

Cypripedium, which produce in Europe, are more favorable than import of China. CITES and dispatch costs are void


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## NYEric (Jan 11, 2009)

Don't european nurseries still charge for CITES paperwork needed to export plants to USA?


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## Hakone (Jan 11, 2009)

NYEric said:


> Don't european nurseries still charge for CITES paperwork needed to export plants to USA?



Hello NYEric,

In Europe does not need import from China, cyp gives enough in Europe. The USA white I not


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## KyushuCalanthe (Jan 11, 2009)

Hakone said:


> Hello NYEric,
> 
> In Europe does not need import from China, cyp gives enough in Europe. The USA white I not



Europe definitely has more material going around compared to the states. Of course nearly all of these plants are either wild sourced or are first generation plants from wild ones. Thankfully some folks have been micropropagating them and so seedling, sub-adult, and young-adult plants are just beginning to come available. 

Phytesia, for instance, has offered such rarities as C. lichiangense and C. yunnanense in the past few years - deflasked seedlings only though. These seedlings were produced from wild collected plants and a number have entered the States presumably legally. To sum up, the relatively Cyp-saturated European market is due to diligent efforts by growers for sure, but this is backed up by a continuous flow of plants out of the wild as well. In America few or no sources of ANY Chinese species exist - that is, in-country sources. That doesn't mean nobody's got any, they just aren't selling them yet (not even fairly common stuff like C. macranthos).


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## shakkai (Jan 11, 2009)

Ratcliffe (through their Hardy Orchids part of the business) propagate and sell Cyps. They have 25 species listed in the list on their website:

http://www.hardyorchids.co.uk/

including Cyp. lichiangense and Cyp. yennanense, as mentioned above. All of their plants are propagated from nursery stock, so these species must have been available here in the EU for some time.

Eric, I checked the Paul Christian Rare Plants site, and they charge £17.50 (so just over $20) for the CITES paperwork per Genus. Which sounds pretty reasonable to me.

http://www.rareplants.co.uk/product.asp?s=dmXs9i260096&strParents=&CAT_ID=94&P_ID=1128


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## NYEric (Jan 11, 2009)

That depends on how much the plants themselves cost!


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jan 11, 2009)

While we're discussing cyps on Ebay, this one caught my interest-http://cgi.ebay.com/Cypripedium-parviflorum-Yellow-Ladyslipper_W0QQitemZ230297554809QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116
Has anyone dealt with this company? It seems like it could be a good place......Take care, Eric


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## Hien (Jan 11, 2009)

shakkai said:


> Ratcliffe (through their Hardy Orchids part of the business) propagate and sell Cyps. They have 25 species listed in the list on their website:
> 
> http://www.hardyorchids.co.uk/
> 
> ...



The orchid community in the US was very upset when the Immigration gave Ratcliffe so much problem that they decided to close their nursery in Florida.


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## cnycharles (Jan 11, 2009)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> While we're discussing cyps on Ebay, this one caught my interest-http://cgi.ebay.com/Cypripedium-parviflorum-Yellow-Ladyslipper_W0QQitemZ230297554809QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116
> Has anyone dealt with this company? It seems like it could be a good place......Take care, Eric



I was surprised to see that the vendor was located in delhi, ny which isn't far from here. I did a google search under delhi ny orchids and couldn't find anything. I got distracted, but am going to continue searching to see if I can find out who this is. Not to say that I could miss someone offering native orchids for sale in my front yard but could just be a reseller of seedlings from flask. So, maybe someone contacting them and inquiring in a friendly fashion where they get their supplies from and what their business name is in delhi. If they have been in business for a while then I guess I need to open my eyes a bit more! 

apparently they do business as woodside gardens, and they have been doing business with a lot of nature products for around 20 years. I thought in the back of my mind that there was a predatory insect company that was in delhi, and this business sells predatory insects so it's probably them. they aren't per se an orchid vendor so aren't listed anywhere as such, but if you check out their sites they sell very many outdoors-related things! (and looks like they grow all of their own orchids)


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## NYEric (Jan 11, 2009)

I hae an order in with that firm in Delhi, NY Eric. Someone here has had a problem with them however. I'll try to look up the thread.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Jan 13, 2009)

NYEric said:


> I hae an order in with that firm in Delhi, NY Eric. Someone here has had a problem with them however. I'll try to look up the thread.



I believe Ron Burch will have some for sale this March. I don't remember where these plants originated though - he has plants that fall within the range of v. maksin, the rarer southern form of v. parviflorum, and also v. parviflorum from the woodlands of Connecticut. Here is the link to his webstore. You can be assured that he will send very healthy plants at a reasonable cost.


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## NYEric (Jan 14, 2009)

Ya Ron is one of the 5-6 vendors I bought cyps from last year. However, I'm worried that we're getting so little snow this year that the ones I planted outside already wont have enough moisture.


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## biothanasis (Jan 14, 2009)

Judging from all the above, how can someone be at a very good percent sure that what one buys is not wild collected???? I know that if flasks and manmade hybrids are offered, then these themselves are ok, but what happens with the native ones?? (Of caurse the rare are suspicious)!!! TY


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## KyushuCalanthe (Jan 14, 2009)

biothanasis said:


> Judging from all the above, how can someone be at a very good percent sure that what one buys is not wild collected???? I know that if flasks and manmade hybrids are offered, then these themselves are ok, but what happens with the native ones?? (Of caurse the rare are suspicious)!!! TY



It can be very difficult to know with established plants. Recently collected plants typically have cut roots, darkened roots (brown and or black parts), and rotten places on the rhizome and roots. Realize that most lab produced plants that are adult size are still pretty young since most species haven't been in production very long. If you see a long rhizome or complex rhizome with multiple shoots, it is likely it was wild collected (especially with the rarer species or Chinese ones). Even "common" species such as C. tibeticum have been only recently raised to maturity from micropropagated material. Face the facts, the bulk of adult size Chinese species were wild sourced. Oh, one more thing, if you are paying less than say $40 per plant, then it is likely sub-adult or wild collected.


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## kentuckiense (Jan 14, 2009)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> Face the facts, the bulk of adult size Chinese species were wild sourced. Oh, one more thing, if you are paying less than say $40 per plant, then it is likely sub-adult or wild collected.



AND ChineseGreen has a long and storied history of selling obviously wild-collected Paphs. Nobody on Earth would be offering adult lab-propagated lichiangense, for example, at those prices.


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## NYEric (Jan 14, 2009)

The US cyps and the ones from the established European firms are generally not wild collected. I have dealt w/ Cyp Haven, Gardens at Post Hill, Hillside Gardens, Spangler Creek, Vermont Ladyslipper, adn a couple of eBay vendors.


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## em_tee_w (Jan 14, 2009)

Robert's Flower Supply seems like a good reputable source, as well. http://www.orchidmix.com/


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## NYEric (Jan 14, 2009)

Seems to have a decent supply plus has other native USA orchids. Thanx.


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## biothanasis (Jan 14, 2009)

Thank you all for the info!!!


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## KyushuCalanthe (Jan 14, 2009)

NYEric said:


> Seems to have a decent supply plus has other native USA orchids. Thanx.



I don't speak against any vendors openly unless they are up to something downright bad, but then again, I would say be careful. PM me and I'll likely say more.

Eric, BTW, regardless of what continent a nursery resides, if they are selling mature Chinese species then those plants are very likely wild sourced or only a generation away from wild collection. You are right that nowadays the NA species are grown from seed or division with the exception of C. acaule which is commonly collected and sold still. That's not to say wild plants aren't being dug up anymore by enthusiasts, so be wary of giving precise directions to plants you know about.


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## NYEric (Jan 15, 2009)

True about that last statement. THanx.


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## biothanasis (Jan 15, 2009)

Is it ok if we bought Cyps that have been from wild collected plant later divisions! I mean if the plants purchased are from wild collected plants that have been divided over, grown, divided again, grown...etc and sold! (But this could not be easily understood though...  ) Just a thought!


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## nikv (Jan 20, 2009)

I spotted this auction on eBay. What do you think the odds are that these plants are collected from the wild?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Paph-armeniacum-and-micranthum-all-with-flower-bud_W0QQitemZ160311119953QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item160311119953&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A10%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

I don't plan on bidding.

Best Regards,
Nik


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## Renegayde (Jan 20, 2009)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Orchid-Species-...ryZ42218QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem



whats the story with this one?

Todd


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jan 20, 2009)

That is concolor v. longipetalum...coming from Thailand, it could be a propagated plant....and could be legal too...but I for one am too wary of odering paphs from overseas....Ebay is a very public place to buy something of questionable legality......Take care, Eric


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## Renegayde (Jan 20, 2009)

no I was not thinking about buying it.....was just curious as to what it was exactly....when I did a search for Paph Longipetalum it came up with several hits on concolor v longipetalum so I was curious if indeed thats what it was....being a newbie seeing Paph Longipetalum made me wonder if it was a species that was not legal in the US

Todd


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## NYEric (Jan 20, 2009)

Someone posted one here before.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Jan 21, 2009)

nikv said:


> I spotted this auction on eBay. What do you think the odds are that these plants are collected from the wild?



Interesting that there is no mention about the phyto certificate or CITES at all. Not surprising really since they will be shipped in a shoe box with no identification other than "souvenirs" written on the customs label. Probability of wild collection somewhere between 99 and 100%, I'd say.


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## biothanasis (Jan 22, 2009)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> Not surprising really since they will be shipped in a shoe box with no identification other than "souvenirs" written on the customs label.



Did you see that you can get them with "local pickup"??? From the us to china!!! LOL!!!!

_Kyushu:_ Many ebay sellers do not offer Phyto and Cites papers whether the plants are wild collected or propagated!!!! additionally many may offer such papers even if the plants are indeed wild collected....


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