# My Paphiopedilum rungsuriyanum have arived



## ByeBye (Jun 26, 2022)

These are seed grown Paphiopedilum rungsuriyanum I got 2 weeks ago.
*See the repotting video on **my YouTube channel*
*Paphiopedilum rungsuriyanum - ORIGIN - HABITAT - CARE - REPOT*


----------



## Herbert (Jun 26, 2022)

Fine! They seem to be flowering size! May I ask where they are from?


----------



## ByeBye (Jun 26, 2022)

Herbert said:


> Fine! They seem to be flowering size! May I ask where they are from?


Yes, they are flowering size, 2 already started new growths.

I got them from *Exotic Plant Company* in the Netherlands


----------



## Russ1992 (Jul 25, 2022)

@Ray If I recall correctly weren't you looking for one of these?


----------



## Ray (Jul 25, 2022)

Grungemanbaby92 said:


> @Ray If I recall correctly weren't you looking for one of these?


Yeahy, but not being in EU, that could be quite an issue...


----------



## NYEric (Jul 25, 2022)

People still seem to not realize that they have not ever been legally exported.


----------



## ByeBye (Jul 25, 2022)

NYEric said:


> People still seem to not realize that they have not ever been legally exported.


Mine were LEGALLY imported as seedlings from Thailand in to Europe with CITES
They may be illegal in the US, but not in Europe, with the necessary papers.


----------



## hamiltons (Jul 25, 2022)

ramp said:


> These are seed grown Paphiopedilum rungsuriyanum I got 2 weeks ago.
> *See the repotting video on **my YouTube channel*
> *Paphiopedilum rungsuriyanum - ORIGIN - HABITAT - CARE - REPOT*
> 
> View attachment 35188


Have you got Them from Holland? Looks like it in these gro tubes


----------



## ByeBye (Jul 25, 2022)

hamiltons said:


> Have you got Them from Holland? Looks like it in these gro tubes


I got them from *Exotic Plant Company* in the Netherlands.
Michael only has a few left.
They are doing very well after repotting in my new mix.

Expected next week from Thailand, more P. helenae aureum and other Paph's.
+ some others I pre-ordered.


----------



## Ozpaph (Jul 25, 2022)

good luck.
Hopefully grown from seed.


----------



## ByeBye (Jul 25, 2022)

Ozpaph said:


> good luck.
> Hopefully grown from seed.


Thanks and yes they are.
4 years out of flask with low germination rate


----------



## NYEric (Jul 26, 2022)

ramp said:


> Mine were LEGALLY imported as seedlings from Thailand in to Europe with CITES
> They may be illegal in the US, but not in Europe, with the necessary papers.


No, I hate to inform you but, there is no CITES agreement with the country of origin. Trust me, few people know more about the production of the plants from A. than I do.


----------



## FrankRC (Jul 27, 2022)

Lets back track these plants and lets give ramp the benefit of the doubt. He has done nothing wrong himself and I hope his plants are happy in his collection for years to come. 

Ramp, "legally imported" is vague, and I think the issue some members are having is that you are using that language in a blanket manner that appears to cover the entire journey of not only your plants, but the mother plant(s) from which these seedlings came. 

The only known location from which this species comes is in Laos. While possible, I am not aware of any populations in Thailand nor are any of the larger and well known Thai nurseries and Paph collectors. It is highly doubtful that Laos issued a permit to collect plants of rungsuriyanum and a CITIES to export the plants. That being said, almost every large Thai nursery and Paph collector in that country has quantities of this species and we can see photos of their plants on Facebook on a pretty regular basis. I do know, because I have tried, that Thailand is not giving CITIES to export rungsuriyanum. Thailand does, however, give CITIES to export Paph hybrids. The plant inspectors at the airports in Bangkok and ChiangMai are knowledgable as to orchids but occasionally somethings gets past their watchful eye. The last plant inspector I spoke with in ChiangMai told me in straight terms they are looking out for this species and not allowing exports of rungsuriyanum.

Therefore, while it may be true that your plants are legally imported, and there is no reason to doubt that, it is not possible that they are legally imported from Thailand as rungsuriyanum, nor is it possible that your plants, or the mother plants used to produce them, were ever legally collected and exported from Laos in the first place. What is likely is that these plants were exported from Thailand with a CITIES as Paph hybrids making your assertion of legal importation correct. If this is in dispute ask for a copy of a Thai issued CITIES with the name rungsuriyanum on it. You won't find one. 

I am not going to take this thread on a tangent. Everyone who reads the posts on this site regularly knows I do not support CITIES as constructed and are well aware of the methods some of the larger nurseries use to legalize otherwise illegal plants. I would guess that each and every person on this list either has plants that were illegal at some point from the jungle source or are derived from illegally collected and exported plants and to think otherwise is naive. How many of you have kovachii hybrids from Ecuadorian nurseries? How many of you have sanderianum or anitum hybrids with Taiwanese plants in the background? Are we so naive as to assume Peru, Malaysia and the Philippines gave special permits to collect the mother plants to these nurseries followed by a CITIES to remove them from their respective countries? But none of that matters because they were imported "legally" and we happily buy up all these legally imported plants.

Ramp, good for you. Keep your plants and I wish you many years of good growing. Rungsuriyanum is something special. Everyone should have this species in their collection. 

Best,


----------



## BrucherT (Jul 27, 2022)

Dying for this species. Dying. It seems to be available everywhere but here…except for people bragging about passing it around on the west coast. It makes no sense when the entire trade could be supplied by one or two seed pods. Sigh.


----------



## GuRu (Jul 27, 2022)

BrucherT said:


> Dying for this species. Dying. It seems to be available everywhere but here…except for people bragging about passing it around on the west coast. It makes no sense when the entire trade could be supplied by one or two seed pods. Sigh.


Brucher, could it be you are peeved about that issue? No need to be that ! Life offers more pretty things not only Paph. rungsuriyanum.


----------



## GuRu (Jul 27, 2022)

Frank, thanks for your very interesting clarification.


----------



## BrucherT (Jul 27, 2022)

GuRu said:


> Brucher, could it be you are peeved about that issue? No need to be that ! Life offers more pretty things not only Paph. rungsuriyanum.


I don’t know that I’d characterize my feelings as “peeved.” I don’t actually begrudge folks their flask-grown plants. I definitely begrudge their poached wildlings. But I believe, as most seem to, that flasked plants are the solution to overcollecting that leads to the extinction of wild plants. I think Laos is wrong not to issue permits for verifiably flask-grown plants. I would buy one.


----------



## NYEric (Jul 28, 2022)

I must correct my statement. Laos did join CITES in 2004, however this plant was never exported with a permit. I know who got and flasked the seed in Thailand. I commend him for his work. I also know who has the plant here. If push comes to shove those seedlings could be confiscated. I think it is necessary to bend rules to help species survive, but still not legal.


----------



## ByeBye (Jul 29, 2022)

FrankRC said:


> Lets back track these plants and lets give ramp the benefit of the doubt. He has done nothing wrong himself and I hope his plants are happy in his collection for years to come.
> 
> Ramp, "legally imported" is vague, and I think the issue some members are having is that you are using that language in a blanket manner that appears to cover the entire journey of not only your plants, but the mother plant(s) from which these seedlings came.
> 
> ...


The problem in the first place is:
1 - the plants were discovered in Thailand in between a bunch of P. canhii from Laos. How they got to Thailand in the first place is a grey zone. 
2 -, they also seem to grow around the North Western border of Vietnam.
3 - Some plants were shipped to Germany for identification and description of this species.

I know and saw that in Vietnam,masses of all kinds of orchids are harvested from the wild, still at this moment. When I was there,they were sold all around ont he sidewalk, sold in bundles by the poor people. If you don't believe me, do a YouTube search, even there Vietnamese are proud to offer bundles of orchid species,no one seem to mind this. Do stripping nature from all types of orchids.
Do I like it? NO!, Can I do something about it? No! These people do this to get a bit of money for food but don't understand the consequences for nature. After all,you still can see that nature is still recovering from what of the Americans did there,many years ago.
Smart Thai venders, buy up some of this vast amount of collected plants and ship them out, sometimes they just drive over the borders. Vietnam and Laos are not that fussed,specially when it comes to border control. As long as you got some money in your pocket, border control is OK with it in many places. I don't respect this, but it is what it is. Everywhere in the world, people use back-doors to get what they want. Now if someone, wherever, takes the time to pollinate, germinate and grow a species on, rare or not,and exports these with the right permits, that I can respect.
How the original plants arrived in Germany, also is in the grey area but this species is pollinated and grown on there too, making these plants legal in Europe.
It's odd that such a rampant comes from the US and specially to my post! Not seen on other posts on this forum.
The US is known all over to have the most illegal (exotic) animals and plants (orchids) in the world. Look at P. kovachii!

Maybe it's time to stop posting on this forum and even leave it.
It certainly not pleasant to be accused of illegality when it's not.
No more for me or I might be shot eventually!


----------



## NYEric (Jul 29, 2022)

Just to clarify, you are saying they are legal because they came into a country with another bunch of plants that were shipped illegally? They are legal because someone has planted them in a country other then the one of their origin? Or, they are legal because they were illegally shipped somewhere for description? None of these make them legal. And don't worry about kovachii in America, it was in Europe way before that. 
I would just say "Bye bye" if you're going to act thin skinned. The point of the forum is conversation, whether you like what you read/hear or not.


----------



## GuRu (Jul 30, 2022)

ramp said:


> The problem in the first place is:
> 1 - the plants were discovered in Thailand in between a bunch of P. canhii from Laos. How they got to Thailand in the first place is a grey zone.
> 2 -, they also seem to grow around the North Western border of Vietnam.
> 3 - Some plants were shipped to Germany for identification and description of this species.
> ...





ramp said:


> These people should be shot or imprisoned immediately.............


It was you who used harsh and in my eyes inappropriate words in the P. kovachi thread.
Now when it comes to your Paph rungsuriyanum your words are much milder and you try to find reasons and apologies why this is how it is. Of couse it's a tragedy when orchids have been plundered from the wild.....no matter in which country all around the world. You already described the reasons why it is this way, so I don't need to repeat it.
In the end there beat two hearts in my chest. One which says, without a permit collected plants in the wild stay illegal even if the were smuggled over a border, propagated legally in another country and the offsprings were shipped with CITES papers to Europe. The other heart says, it's good to save such endangered plants from extinction in the wild.....sometimes with unconventional methods.


----------



## GuRu (Jul 30, 2022)

NYEric said:


> .......The point of the forum is conversation, whether you like what you read/hear or not.


Eric, these are exactly my thoughts.


----------



## ByeBye (Jul 30, 2022)

GuRu said:


> Eric, these are exactly my thoughts.


I won't even react to this anymore. Keep on pushing members out of this forum.


----------



## GuRu (Jul 30, 2022)

ramp said:


> I won't even react to this anymore. Keep on pushing members out of this forum.


Nobody pushed you out of this forum ...... except yourself !


----------



## ByeBye (Jul 30, 2022)

GuRu said:


> Nobody pushed you out of this forum ...... except yourself !


All I did, was post that I bought some P. rungsurianum that were seed grown. You and tour Buddy started accusing me, not the other way around. 
Go do what you do best.


----------



## cnycharles (Jul 30, 2022)

I’m glad I don’t ‘grow’ paphs! 

… I barely grow phrags; pouch people get way too wild and touchy


----------



## fibre (Jul 31, 2022)

Some weeks ago I liked to by rungsurianum from_ Exotic Plant Company_ in the Netherlands. So I have asked for CITES or at least a copy of their import permit for Paph. rungsurianum. I didn't get any.


----------



## NYEric (Aug 1, 2022)

ByeBye said:


> All I did, was post that I bought some P. rungsurianum that were seed grown. You and tour Buddy started accusing me, not the other way around.
> Go do what you do best.


NO one accused anyone of anything, as far as I can read. There are no, none, zero, keinen, nichivo, legal rungsuriyanum outside of Laos, period.


----------



## Russ1992 (Aug 4, 2022)

ByeBye said:


> I won't even react to this anymore. Keep on pushing members out of this forum.


Please Bye Bye don't leave. The fact of the matter is we all love these plants and don't want them to go extinct. Whether yours are legal or not is of little importance, especially if they are seed grown. What is important is that you are helping keep the genetics alive, enjoying them in the process, and allowing the greater community to enjoy them with you. End of story.


----------



## ByeBye (Aug 4, 2022)

Grungemanbaby92 said:


> Please Bye Bye don't leave. The fact of the matter is we all love these plants and don't want them to go extinct. Whether yours are legal or not is of little importance, especially if they are seed grown. What is important is that you are helping keep the genetics alive, enjoying them in the process, and allowing the greater community to enjoy them with you. End of story.


To late. I reply to your reaction out of respect.
I will never post here again.
One of my rungsy's is in spike now.
If you want to see more of them and my other orchids, you can follow me on my YouTube channel.
Sorry, but that's all I still want to say!


----------



## NYEric (Aug 5, 2022)

Seems like you crave attention. You're not sorry, you are just peeved that someone challenged your incorrect statement that you had LEGAL seedlings, and you're not adult enough to admit you were wrong.


----------



## Ray (Aug 5, 2022)

No personal attacks, please.


----------



## GuRu (Aug 5, 2022)

NYEric said:


> Seems like you crave attention. You're not sorry, you are just peeved that someone challenged your incorrect statement that you had LEGAL seedlings, and you're not adult enough to admit you were wrong.


Ray, these aren't personal attacks but the truth. In the whole thread nobody attacked anybody, that's a fact therefore there isn't any reason to act the way ramp/Bye Bye did.


----------



## TyroneGenade (Aug 5, 2022)

NYEric said:


> ... If push comes to shove those seedlings could be confiscated. I think it is necessary to bend rules to help species survive, but still not legal.


That would not be the worst thing in the world. US FWS and DA operate a program where confiscated plants and animals are placed in the care of "sanctuaries" wherein they can be bred/propagated and enter the trade legally. If memory serves, this has happened with several orchids previously where their illegal import got the plants confiscated and put in care of a grower who propagated the plants and distributed legal seedlings into the US trade. Too bad no one is selflessly-deceitful enough to import some plants for them to be confiscated and rehabilitated back into the hobby. But maybe one day someone will order something from Thailand and the order will be stuffed up and some poor soul with be facing a compot of rungsuriyanum instead of one or another Bracy hybrid. Bad luck for them, good luck for us. Well... good luck to the rest of you who like this plant. I'm not too impressed. For all I care all the plants can stay in Laos.


----------



## tnyr5 (Aug 5, 2022)

TyroneGenade said:


> That would not be the worst thing in the world. US FWS and DA operate a program where confiscated plants and animals are placed in the care of "sanctuaries" wherein they can be bred/propagated and enter the trade legally. If memory serves, this has happened with several orchids previously where their illegal import got the plants confiscated and put in care of a grower who propagated the plants and distributed legal seedlings into the US trade. Too bad no one is selflessly-deceitful enough to import some plants for them to be confiscated and rehabilitated back into the hobby. But maybe one day someone will order something from Thailand and the order will be stuffed up and some poor soul with be facing a compot of rungsuriyanum instead of one or another Bracy hybrid. Bad luck for them, good luck for us. Well... good luck to the rest of you who like this plant. I'm not too impressed. For all I care all the plants can stay in Laos.


You're asking for more than you think. USFW would never let it happen without sending someone to jail & imposing six-figure fines just to show off. We'd be asking someone to sacrifice...basically everything, their lives, their livelihood, just so we can have a plant. 

Since the originator of this thread has been driven out & is no longer with us, I suggest that #mods lock it.


----------



## Russ1992 (Aug 5, 2022)

tnyr5 said:


> You're asking for more than you think. USFW would never let it happen without sending someone to jail & imposing six-figure fines just to show off. We'd be asking someone to sacrifice...basically everything, their lives, their livelihood, just so we can have a plant.
> 
> Since the originator of this thread has been driven out & is no longer with us, I suggest that #mods lock it.


Lock the thread because it's controversial or lock out the thread originator?


----------



## Ray (Aug 5, 2022)

GuRu said:


> Ray, these aren't personal attacks but the truth. In the whole thread nobody attacked anybody, that's a fact therefore there isn't any reason to act the way ramp/Bye Bye did.


I was referring to the "you're not adult enough to admit" comment, which IS directed at someone.

I have actually no issue with the facts of the discussion, which I why I did not delete a "reported" comment earlier.


----------



## TyroneGenade (Aug 5, 2022)

tnyr5 said:


> You're asking for more than you think. USFW would never let it happen without sending someone to jail & imposing six-figure fines just to show off. We'd be asking someone to sacrifice...basically everything, their lives, their livelihood, just so we can have a plant.


Yes indeed. You would have to be mad to think as I have expressed. It is in the best interest of the agencies to get a conviction for an accidental important than be merciful. Given the fall out of past cases, one might be better off to torch mislabeled plants than try turn them in. What a sad world we have created.


----------



## Ray (Aug 5, 2022)

I believe all angles have been expressed at this point, so I shall lock it.


----------

