# Phrag. Cardinale



## SlipperFan (Oct 16, 2015)

My Phrag. Cardinale seedling that I purchased from Glen Decker has bloomed. It looks so different from my other mature Cardinale that I decided to photograph them and send them to Glen, asking for his opinion. Here is his response:

"Your other "Cardinale" is probably Phrag. Schlimii 'Wilcox' or 'Birchwood' .... This is a much older hybrid. Back when these clones were shown, they were labeled and awarded as the species "schlimiii". However, overtime the AOS finally realized that this was not a species, but a hybrid. Nobody really knows for sure what that hybrid is, so the closest thing that came to mind is that it must be Phrag. Cardinale, but like I said, nobody knows for sure and nobody has been able to duplicate. Unfortunately, back when, hybridizers were very secretive, and many lied about the breeding to keep that secret. 

The plant in the top picture is indeed Phrag. Cardinale (Sedenii x schlimii) 

The plant in the middle picture is probably Phrag. Schlimii 'Wilcox' AM/AOS or 'Birchwood' AM/AOS, however people except it as Phrag. Cardinale as well.

Now, just to add a little more confusion ...

Phrag. Sedenii is a hybrid with longifolium ... longifolium is extremely variable, both in size of flower and size of plant. So, depending on what longifolium was used will also give you variability. 

Hope this helps you ..."​
So, instead of my seedling being the questionable hybrid, it turns out that the original Cardinale is the questionable one!


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## Justin (Oct 16, 2015)

Dot, I bought this plant as Sedenii, but the opinion on the forum last year was that it was Cardinale. So not knowing much about Phrags I thought that must be right. Looks a whole lot like yours. 

Either way it is a great plant with awesome flowers so I am happy to grow it.

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38850&highlight=phrag+cardinale


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## troy (Oct 16, 2015)

Very nice blooms!!! Well grown!!


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## abax (Oct 17, 2015)

Aaahhh a little mystery to add to the beauty of the flowers.
Intriguing.

I wish I could bloom my Phrags. so well. I huff and puff rainwater to
them. I added LED lighting over them. In short, I've done everything right according to the literature on growing them. I've got several
very large ones and they're not blooming either. I've bloomed one
sedenii and four besseae and the rest just grow and grow and don't
bloom. Makes me want to grit my teeth!


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## trdyl (Oct 17, 2015)

Dot, I like it a lot. Your post makes me wonder if the ones that were awarded as schlimii are line bred polyploids.


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## Achamore (Oct 17, 2015)

abax said:


> Aaahhh a little mystery to add to the beauty of the flowers.
> Intriguing.
> 
> I wish I could bloom my Phrags. so well. I huff and puff rainwater to
> ...



Angela, what temperature zone do you grow them in?


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## phraggy (Oct 17, 2015)

abax said:


> Aaahhh a little mystery to add to the beauty of the flowers.
> Intriguing.
> 
> I wish I could bloom my Phrags. so well. I huff and puff rainwater to
> ...



If they're large plants with multiple growths ---- split it ---- shock it into flowring. It works for me!!

Ed


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## Secundino (Oct 17, 2015)

Both are gorgeous - and that Schlimii is out of doubt one of the best there are. Sedenii can be very variable, from disappointing to marvellous. Cardinale is usually on the better side.

Lovely photographs, as always!


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## SlipperFan (Oct 17, 2015)

Secundino said:


> Both are gorgeous - and that Schlimii is out of doubt one of the best there are. Sedenii can be very variable, from disappointing to marvellous. Cardinale is usually on the better side.
> 
> Lovely photographs, as always!



But re-read the first paragraph of Glen's reply. Although awarded as schlimii, it is not schlimii.


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## eteson (Oct 17, 2015)

Sedenii seems to be very variable... not only by the longifolium side but also from the "schlimii" side. I am sure that some "Sedenii" were made using andreettae, fischerii, manzurii or anguloi prior to the description ot the mentioned species. My Cardinale is exactly as your second picture and was made here in Colombia so is not "wilcox" or "Birchwood".

If you cross Cardinale x Cardinale the result is going to give you a lot of segregation of characteres... you can ask Glen to send you some pictures of the same cross to see if all the plants are very similar or you can see the mentioned segregation.

BTW. If you write Glen please say him to replace the andreettae picture in his website. The picture is anguloi. Or if he is selling anguloi he should then add a "0" to the price.


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## eteson (Oct 17, 2015)

One of my two Cardinale is in flower right now. This one seems to be similar to your plant.


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## SlipperFan (Oct 17, 2015)

eteson said:


> Sedenii seems to be very variable... not only by the longifolium side but also from the "schlimii" side. I am sure that some "Sedenii" were made using andreettae, fischerii, manzurii or anguloi prior to the description ot the mentioned species. My Cardinale is exactly as your second picture and was made here in Colombia so is not "wilcox" or "Birchwood".
> 
> If you cross Cardinale x Cardinale the result is going to give you a lot of segregation of characteres... you can ask Glen to send you some pictures of the same cross to see if all the plants are very similar or you can see the mentioned segregation.
> 
> BTW. If you write Glen please say him to replace the andreettae picture in his website. The picture is anguloi. Or if he is selling anguloi he should then add a "0" to the price.





eteson said:


> One of my two Cardinale is in flower right now. This one seems to be similar to your plant.



Thanks, Eliseo. I think I will, especially with the photos you posted. It indeed does look like mine. Will the petals twist? That seems to be a characteristic of mine. Which form of longifolium did you use in your cross?


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## abax (Oct 17, 2015)

Don, it's turning cold and definitely fall. Frosted last night
and first freeze tonight. Generally, lows are 60F and the
highs on a sunny day can get up to about 80F. However,
it's goin' down. My night heater is set on 63F, but is actually a bit cooler in the Phrag. section of the greenhouse. These temps. suit my Phals. and Paphs., but
might still be a bit warm for Phrags. What do you think?

Phraggy, I have several that are large, multi-growth plants. I'm
giving them one more chance to bloom this winter. If they don't,
I will divide them and see how they like them apples!


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## Achamore (Oct 18, 2015)

Angela, what potting medium, and frequency of watering? The temp sounds fine to me.


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## monocotman (Oct 18, 2015)

*Flowering phrags*

Abax,

I grow my phrags much cooler than you do and have no difficulty flowering them. Winter day times are usually not much above 15c and night go down to 10c. Summer can get up to 25c on occasions but not often. These are just the house temperatures indoors. This may or may not be relevant!
They receive full sun in a west facing window, cattleya light levels and grow sat in water year round. Feed is very low at every watering.

Regards 

David


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## trdyl (Oct 19, 2015)

eteson said:


> One of my two Cardinale is in flower right now. This one seems to be similar to your plant.



Eliseo, Those are lovely!


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## eteson (Oct 25, 2015)

SlipperFan said:


> Thanks, Eliseo. I think I will, especially with the photos you posted. It indeed does look like mine. Will the petals twist? That seems to be a characteristic of mine. Which form of longifolium did you use in your cross?



Dot, The petals in mines twist as propellers too. This was made with a standard longifolium.
I put a picture in Phrag section where you can see full mature flowers.


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## SlipperFan (Oct 25, 2015)

eteson said:


> Dot, The petals in mines twist as propellers too. This was made with a standard longifolium.
> I put a picture in Phrag section where you can see full mature flowers.



Thanks Eliseo. It is very much like my plant, only better. Mine isn't branching.


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## eteson (Oct 25, 2015)

SlipperFan said:


> Thanks Eliseo. It is very much like my plant, only better. Mine isn't branching.



It will branch. Give it another shot, it is a nice clone.


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## abax (Oct 25, 2015)

Don, my Phrags. are potted in Orchiata and all sit in rainwater that is changed every day or so. Well, one isn't
in a saucer of rainwater because Dot suggested that it's
genetic background wasn't a constantly wet Phrag. type.
She is right because it began doing much better when I
took away the saucer. All the Phrags. look very healthy.


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