# The Mother of All Morality Questions!



## Nutz4Paphs (Oct 20, 2008)

I haven't put this question to the forum because to be quite honest, I just haven't worried about it until recently...
OK, so I was at the WOC and bought 3 NBS emersonii plants from a wonderful gentleman. He only had the three so I grabbed all of them! Yes, it is true...I am known to hoard something that I REALLY like! 
So...although it isnt quite their season to bloom, one has just finished flowering. It is NOT emersonii but definitely hangianum. I am sure. Emersonii is my absolute favorite species and I have about a dozen different clones. These are VERY different. Much larger flowers, stronger fragrance, more greenish, etc.
My question that I am putting forth...Do I keep the plants and just keep quiet:evil:, turn them over to the 'Authorities':sob:, or well, I dont know of other options. 
I have some great plants in my collection and it worries me to have "contraband" lurking around. 
What say you fellow slipperphiles?


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Oct 20, 2008)

We all wish we had your predicament....Short of salving your conscience by sending them off to any one of us so that they are off your hands, I'd say be quiet and accept your good fortune. I really doubt that USFW will come searching at your door....these plants are all over the US now....and most of them are propagated plants, as yours appear to be. I think that at this point USFW will be targeting smugglers of collected plants, but ignoring the propagated plants that the rest of the world considers legal....pretty much "don't ask, don't tell". Take care, Eric


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## Nutz4Paphs (Oct 20, 2008)

Thanks. That is what I was thinking, but I just wanted some confimation maybe. They seem to really be thriving and are beautiful plants...Itd be a shame to send them to some F&WS office and have them die in a box somewhere!


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## goldenrose (Oct 20, 2008)

well let's see here. Which WOC did you purchase these plants? Only one plant has bloomed, correct? Then are you assuming that the other two are also hangianum? Oh my - what is one to do - you're stuck with a hangianum?! 
I want to know how many on this forum would be jumping for joy if this happened to them? 
Let's dig a little deeper....... if emersonii is your favorite, then did the plants out of bloom look different to you? Leaf size, leaf shape, markings underneath, there should be a difference, according to the descriptions I've read. How about the size of the plants? Emersonii is considered a small plant & NBS, should have been small! Hangianum is considered medium size & one bloomed, there should have been a bit of a size difference.
Time to come clean as long as you opened your mouth!


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## Kevin (Oct 20, 2008)

Yeah, how about some pictures too!! Don't worry - the 'authorities' don't read these forums


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## kentuckiense (Oct 20, 2008)

Kevin said:


> Yeah, how about some pictures too!! Don't worry - the 'authorities' don't read these forums



I would bet they do.

Keep the plants, but I wouldn't suggest posting photos.


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## Scott Ware (Oct 21, 2008)

Nutz4Paphs said:


> My question that I am putting forth...Do I keep the plants and just keep quiet...



If I recall correctly, that is pretty much what Roddy Gabel said to do in his presentation at the WOC. It almost seemed like F&W was taking a "Don't ask, don't tell" approach to all the iffy paphs at the WOC.


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## smartie2000 (Oct 21, 2008)

i am absolutely sure you are not the only one with hangianum. I wouldn't worry.

I have seen someone in the states with loads of hangianum, armeniacum, micranthum, jackii and posted them at RV orchid forum.

Obviously given what he posted all his plants were illegal


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Oct 21, 2008)

I fail to see the moral issue here? Chances are you have artificially propagated plants, thus reducing the pressure on wild populations.

It is very sad that any artificially propagated plant that doesn't get you high could be considered "contraband" and I'm sure USFW sees this, thus the "don't ask, don't tell".


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## KyushuCalanthe (Oct 21, 2008)

True, there are many such plants around, but I wouldn't consider internet forums safe places to be talking about them! I go along with the "don't ask, don't tell theory".


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## Heather (Oct 21, 2008)

Agree - just leave it alone.


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## Ernie (Oct 21, 2008)

Yeah, they shouldn't bug you as long as you keep them to yourself. Don't take them for shows, etc. 

-Ernie


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## Hien (Oct 21, 2008)

1) I kind of agree with other members' opinions.
2) You can not be sure about what your plants are, since no one see the flowers but you. I think you should google images "hangianum" to compare your new flowers with those pictures, not with your other emersonii, emersoniis can be different, yours can also be hybrids (I bought 2 supposedly hang x rothschildianum from California, and surprises.. surprises, the leaves look like a hybrid between malipoense & Gods know, what the other parent may be, one thing for sure, other forum members said the leaves did not look like either of the quoted parents. Needless to say, I do not order there again)
3) Think about the problem & how much harm you may have create for the seller if you turn over these plants. With all due respect, This is the kind of nightmarish buyers that sellers hate to sell to.
4) It scares me to think that China becomes more free & we become less so.
They made zillions of hang flasks in China (Exaggeration). Had it been a cheap labor profit for the CEOs, they would have lobby congress to have free trade on "hang" already.
5) And if you still want to send them to rescue centers (thinking of the sins, after-life and heaven), I am sure they will not languishingly die in some corner gathering spider webs the way you worry about. I am sure someone at the same caliber of Antec will be able to breed them and have legal hangs in a few years like the helenaes, vietnamenses etc... Actually, I wonder if there are some hangs being reproduced at some rescue centers at this point already. Does anybody know?


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## SlipperFan (Oct 21, 2008)

You bought them in good faith. Keep them without guilt. You don't know for sure, anyway, that they are not what you thought when you purchased them.


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## Nutz4Paphs (Oct 21, 2008)

WOW, lots of opinions, but pretty much all the same. 
Responding to a few of the questions...
The plants are a bit larger. Leaves seem more succulent and definitely longer. Several of you may be right however...emersonii is quite diverse in its appearance. The size of the bloom is what kind of threw me off - very round and VERY big for an emersonii.
Hien, Im not the kind of buyer that would tattle on my seller - so no offense taken. I did buy them in good faith (dont we all buy unbloomed seedling in good faith?) and I was secretly (not any more) thrilled. I just started wondering if I was putting the rest of my collection in jeopardy - Ive heard horror stories of FW raids - not that I have enough plants to constitute a 'raid'. Anyway, thank you for all of your opinions. It has put my conscience at ease.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Oct 21, 2008)

There are hangianums that overlap in size with emersonii. Smaller hangianums at blooming size can be smaller than the larger emersonii's...although the largest hang's are supposed to be larger than the largest emersonii's....also, I think that hangianum does not have the faint tesselation that emersonii's frequently have. Also, a grower once showed me a CITES certificate for hangianum flasks produced in Vietnam. They hadn't yet reached the US, but it is a possibility that these plants have since been imported. At this point, there are so many propagated Vietnamese plants out there if even 1 permit exists, all may be at least superficially covered. Look at those alba vietnamense that you had mentioned in another post...as far as I know, the only purely above board legal viet's in this country are from, or descended from, the Antec plants...none of which were alba. Yet the alba's are here. Look at delanatii- the (now, not so) new vietnamese clones. They are/were as illegal as any of the new paphs. But, since delanatii is an established species in cultivation, they were all freely distributed within a year or so of their discovery. Take care, Eric


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## Bolero (Oct 21, 2008)

Certainly not the mother of all moral issues but a good question.

I would just keep them, it's hardly your fault.


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## Hien (Oct 22, 2008)

Nutz4Paphs said:


> WOW, lots of opinions, but pretty much all the same.
> Responding to a few of the questions...
> The plants are a bit larger. Leaves seem more succulent and definitely longer. Several of you may be right however...emersonii is quite diverse in its appearance. The size of the bloom is what kind of threw me off - very round and VERY big for an emersonii.
> Hien, Im not the kind of buyer that would tattle on my seller - so no offense taken. I did buy them in good faith (dont we all buy unbloomed seedling in good faith?) and I was secretly (not any more) thrilled. I just started wondering if I was putting the rest of my collection in jeopardy - Ive heard horror stories of FW raids - not that I have enough plants to constitute a 'raid'. Anyway, thank you for all of your opinions. It has put my conscience at ease.



Do the flowers look different from each other (or they are uniform in look)
The reason I ask is I hope that you did make sibbling cross from them so in case they do not survive in the future, you get some seedlings from your own flasks.


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## Nutz4Paphs (Oct 22, 2008)

Hien, only one plant bloomed so I did not make a sib cross.
Eric, thank you for mentioning the tesselation on emersonii. This flower did have a faint tesselation pattern. So, from what I have read online on other sites (thanks to your mention of that pattern) it appears that I just have 3 GREAT emersonii. 
Thanks everyone for your input. Problem resolved.


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## Hien (Oct 22, 2008)

Nutz4Paphs said:


> Hien, only one plant bloomed so I did not make a sib cross.
> Eric, thank you for mentioning the tesselation on emersonii. This flower did have a faint tesselation pattern. So, from what I have read online on other sites (thanks to your mention of that pattern) it appears that I just have 3 GREAT emersonii.
> Thanks everyone for your input. Problem resolved.



I believe Eric is talking about leaf tesselation ( not flower tesselation )
The experts mentioned that the leaves are so similar, that it is very hard to tell them apart. (but it is mentioned somewhere that one species has more wavy leaf, one has faint tesselation pattern in leaf. I forgot which one is which)
If you google emersonii & hangianum. You can see that they can never be confused, specially the staminode part (one is fat, the other one is skinny)
The flower texture (One is opaque , one is more translucent )
The pouch (one is opaque, the other shows spots thru the outerface)

hangianum:

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7691&highlight=hangianum

emersonii (also huonglanae)

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7682&highlight=huonglanae


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## goldenrose (Oct 23, 2008)

Is there any purple spotting on the underneath side of the leaves near the base? Emersonii would/could have, whereas hangianum rarely, usually not.


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## Ron-NY (Oct 23, 2008)

Sometimes when one is buying from foreign vendors, unbloomed plants, one will get plants that are mislabeled. I have seen that before and I am sure I will see it again. Unfortunately, without paperwork from a legal population, you can't propogate it to sell.


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## Kevin (Oct 23, 2008)

Ron-NY said:


> Unfortunately, without paperwork from a legal population, you can't propogate it to sell.



Why not? Or, do you mean, you _shouldn't_?


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## SlipperKing (Oct 23, 2008)

Ron-NY said:


> Sometimes when one is buying from foreign vendors, unbloomed plants, one will get plants that are mislabeled. I have seen that before and I am sure I will see it again. Unfortunately, without paperwork from a legal population, you can't propogate it to sell.


yea right


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## Ron-NY (Oct 24, 2008)

Kevin said:


> Why not? Or, do you mean, you _shouldn't_?


 That statement is from a legal basis. The seedlings from it would be just as illegal as the plant itself.


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## Candace (Oct 24, 2008)

The fruit of a forbidden tree is also forbidden.


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## e-spice (Oct 25, 2008)

If the plants were sold to you as emersonii, I would enjoy them and assume that is what they are. You bought them in good faith that they were legal plants. If they turn out to be something different someday then it's not your fault. Oh and I wouldn't take them to shows either.

e-spice


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## NYEric (Oct 27, 2008)

When I read your first post I thought you have huonglanae. Search the paph photos here to compare. And dont worry I've already contacted the orchid police and they're on their way. [I plan on buying some hangianums w/ my reward money! :evil:]


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## likespaphs (Oct 27, 2008)

NYEric said:


> ...I plan on buying some hangianums w/ my reward money! :evil:...



you're a funny guy....


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## SlipperKing (Oct 27, 2008)

I guess it's OK....look what this guys got
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9687

In Calif no less!!!


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## Renegayde (Oct 27, 2008)

ok newbie question...is Paph Exul illegal in the US?

Todd


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## nikv (Oct 27, 2008)

^ ^
I dunno but I see it offered on eBay frequently.


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## Scott Ware (Oct 27, 2008)

I think you're pretty safe with Paph. exul. The earliest repot date I have on the back of the tag of one of my Paph. exul is 1958. It has been here awhile


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## NYEric (Oct 28, 2008)

Hmm, I got some [OZ source] phrags years ago from a similar sounding site.


SlipperKing said:


> I guess it's OK....look what this guys got
> http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9687
> 
> In Calif no less!!!


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