# rot/erwinia problems with Phrags.



## abax (Jun 30, 2015)

The weather is terrible this summer. Very little sun and lots of rain and overcast days. I've been using Phyton 27
every ten days or so to prevent rot for the last month. Is
this effective control? I only have two Phrags. showing a
bit of dark splotching on old growth that doesn't seem to
be spreading. I have lots of air movement so that's not
the problem. Any suggestions other than Phyton?

Oh, might the weather cause a St. Eligius bud to blast?
The first bud doesn't look good, but there are some buds
developing that seem fine...so far. Is it possible that drenching with Phyton might encourage a bud to blast?


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## gonewild (Jul 1, 2015)

abax said:


> Is it possible that drenching with Phyton might encourage a bud to blast?



Yes.


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## Ray (Jul 1, 2015)

Angela, give the Inocucor Garden Solution a try. I had an pricey phal with erwinia, so I sprayed it daily for a week, and the rot stopped and the plant has resumed normal growth.

I am using it regularly in the greenhouse this summer (1% solution every 3-4 weeks) and have seen no rots whatsoever.


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## eaborne (Jul 1, 2015)

Ray said:


> Angela, give the Inocucor Garden Solution a try. I had an pricey phal with erwinia, so I sprayed it daily for a week, and the rot stopped and the plant has resumed normal growth.
> 
> I am using it regularly in the greenhouse this summer (1% solution every 3-4 weeks) and have seen no rots whatsoever.



Ray, Are you using it as a foliar mist or watering with it also? How do I use it in conjunction with KelpMax? Thanks.


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## eaborne (Jul 1, 2015)

abax said:


> Oh, might the weather cause a St. Eligius bud to blast?
> The first bud doesn't look good, but there are some buds
> developing that seem fine...so far. Is it possible that drenching with Phyton might encourage a bud to blast?



I agree that Phyton can cause the bud to blast as well as a number of other things. Our weather here in LA hasn't been much different from yours except for a little hotter. I don't think weather is the issue. I am excited for you getting it to bloom though!


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## Paph_LdyMacBeth (Jul 1, 2015)

If your plants are outside I certainly feel for you. I'm an indoor grower (under lights) who has typically summered my plants outside. I gave up on this last summer due to erwinia -its just not worth the months it takes me to get them to recover! Good luck and i'll be watching your progress


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## abax (Jul 1, 2015)

I grow in a greenhouse. It would be impossible to grow
outside back here in the woods with all the critters like
squirrels, raccoons, possums, chipmunks, etc. that might
see it as a cafeteria offering.

Eron, it ain't bloomed yet. It's been in bud for about a
month as the stem elongates. If it's not the overcast
weather or Phyton, I can't imagine why the bud's looking
rather "blastish". 'Ice Princess' is the Phrag. with a very
small spot that might be rot and China Dragon had rot,
but is doing well now...so far. Perhaps I'm over-doing
the Phyton do you think? There appears to be three small buds developing further down on the St. Eligius
spike. Send good Louisiana vibes! All my other Phrags.
are growing so well, but being quite stubborn about spiking. Damned weather!!!

Thank you for the suggestion Ray. I generally don't spray anything
if I can drench the medium, but I might just give it a try. My Phals.
are thriving as are my Paphs. It's the Phrags. that worry me to death as I'm still a newbie with them.


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## Secundino (Jul 2, 2015)

Strange. With good air movement, reasonable tº's and nothing organic near that could contain Erwinia, there shouldn't be no problem. 
Keep the water extremely _fresh_, don't let stay in water for a while but water daily. Perhaps some epsom salts...
Luck with your plants! Phrags have been the easiest group for me ... You say you have *lots* of air movement ... _and_ Erwinia. Could it be that during cold and dark spells you should move the plants to somewhere with less air movement? Could it be that strong air movement makes it too cold for them to fell happy? Just my thoughts...


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## Ray (Jul 2, 2015)

eaborne said:


> Ray, Are you using it as a foliar mist or watering with it also? How do I use it in conjunction with KelpMax? Thanks.



Eron,

For "curative" treatments, I apply a 2% IGS solution from a hand-spray bottle, completely wetting the plant and soaking the medium. For general proactive treatment, I use a 1% solution applied via a hose-end sprayer, and again, the plants and pots get drenched.

In my greenhouse setup, the RO water has fertilizer injected in the hose stream, so that is applied all the time, when adding the IGS or KelpMax, i use the hose end sprayer. I usually do one at the start of the month (or so...), and the other around mid-month, so they really are more-or-less independent of each other.

The only time I use them together is in situations involving rootless rescues, new imports being potted up, or transplants.


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## Linus_Cello (Jul 2, 2015)

Secundino said:


> Strange. With good air movement, reasonable tº's and nothing organic near that could contain Erwinia, there shouldn't be no problem.
> Keep the water extremely _fresh_, don't let stay in water for a while but water daily. Perhaps some epsom salts...
> Luck with your plants! Phrags have been the easiest group for me ... You say you have *lots* of air movement ... _and_ Erwinia. Could it be that during cold and dark spells you should move the plants to somewhere with less air movement? Could it be that strong air movement makes it too cold for them to fell happy? Just my thoughts...



I concur. My phrags definitely do better outside. Even with all the rain we've been having, I think the air movement compensates. I don't see any difference between my phrags in bark vs s/h.
What type of light are your phrags getting outside?


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## iwillard (Jul 3, 2015)

Angela,I truly feel your pain. I've been away on the road for 2 weeks now,drove down south then on the 3rd day I decided to fly back to check on the orchids,flew back down again and weather held up on the cool side long enough to wait 4 days before flying back again. Flew back and this time I drove back home. In 2 weeks,only one showed some sign of erwinia.

Prior to my departure,I soaked every single plant in kleengrow and repotted all in Inocucor soaked chc mixture and so far only 1 plant in 2 weeks is a record for me,just removed the bad section soaked the plant in kleengrow then sealed it with dragon blood. Phyton didn't work me along with umpteen other solutions.

Good luck to you with your battle,I'm sure mine is not over yet but somewhat contained.


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## abax (Jul 3, 2015)

I don't think it's cool temps. for sure. Temps. have been in the high 80's-low 90's here. A bit lower in the greenhouse
with all the air movement.

iwillard, I think I've got disease symptoms under control
which is about all anyone can do really. I change the
rainwater in the saucers every day and pour new rainwater through the pots. I still think the one or two
spots that are under control are due to the unceasing rain
and overcast. The poor babies need some SUN!

Hey you traveling in the south, come visit!!! I live about
five miles from I-75, exit 29. We'll take you out to eat
and we can cry on each other's shoulder about Phrag.
problems. Bring an umbrella. That goes for anyone on
ST traveling south on vacation. I love orchid company
and we have an apartment we call the barndominium for
guests.


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## iwillard (Jul 4, 2015)

Thank you for your kind offer,Angela! 

If I'm anywhere near KY,I will definitely let you know and hope you'll do the same while I'm in PA. Right now my endless search is for the Coastal SC and Golden Isles,GA area,I figure if my poor orchids really mind the heat,I might as well take them to the heart of it and see how they like them apples.. 

Once I get my old bones,my orchids and my dogs/cats down there,you and ST members are always welcome for a visit. DH says he'll visit during warmer months but will be there when he sees first snow flake gently coming down from the sky.
Just the thought of Redlands will be within a daylight driving distance instead of over couple of days of driving time is enough reason to stop and visit.


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## abax (Jul 5, 2015)

I have a friend who just moved from Utah mountains to
an island off the coast of GA and she LOVES it...also her
orchids are thriving. I wish I could remember the name
of the island. Perhaps it will come to me later. Her dog
loves the outside play time all year too. I got the impression that real estate on that particular island isn't
outlandish as some of the coastal areas are. Good luck!


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## eggshells (Aug 19, 2015)

Angela, have you tried Bacillus subtilis for prevention?


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## Gilda (Aug 19, 2015)

If you're looking for a nice small town.Darien, Ga. is quaint.
We have friends that live on a private barrier island called Kittles...real close to Sapelo which is only reachable by boat. Scope it out


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## phraggy (Aug 19, 2015)

Treatments are expensive. Have you tried the cheap and effective way of curing ailments --- a soak in water containing enough bleach to show a few bubbles when stirred.
Works well for me. I got this method from an orchid grower of many years. I have tried it myself with great success and never lost a plant 

Ed


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## SlipperFan (Aug 19, 2015)

I'd sure like to know your bleach formula! This is way too vague for me.


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## papheteer (Aug 20, 2015)

Angela, sorry about this. I used to encounter rot when i watered with R/O water and all-nitrate fertilizer. Now that I use tap water with lots of calcium, coupled with urea-based fertilizer, rot is non-existent. Just my experience.


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## Brabantia (Aug 20, 2015)

phraggy said:


> Treatments are expensive. Have you tried the cheap and effective way of curing ailments --- a soak in water containing enough bleach to show a few bubbles when stirred.
> Works well for me. I got this method from an orchid grower of many years. I have tried it myself with great success and never lost a plant
> 
> Ed


At which concentration do you use bleach solution? Here in Belgium the household solution has a concentration of 15 degrees chlorometric = 47.55 gr/l chlorine.


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## Gilda (Aug 20, 2015)

papheteer said:


> Angela, sorry about this. I used to encounter rot when i watered with R/O water and all-nitrate fertilizer. Now that I use tap water with lots of calcium, coupled with urea-based fertilizer, rot is non-existent. Just my experience.


r

I too have experienced this ..with Rain water and fertilizer..I was also fertilizing phrags too much and not flushing the pots.


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## Justin (Aug 20, 2015)

agree with paphateer. i had the same problem with R/O with not enough Calcium and mine do much better now with tapwater and Urea. Do you give your plants enough Calcium and Magnesium?


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## eggshells (Aug 20, 2015)

Justin said:


> agree with paphateer. i had the same problem with R/O with not enough Calcium and mine do much better now with tapwater and Urea. Do you give your plants enough Calcium and Magnesium?



Ditto! I hate using rain water. The first time I used rain water. Five of my plants got rot literally the next morning. They were fine the day before.


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## dodidoki (Aug 20, 2015)

papheteer said:


> Angela, sorry about this. I used to encounter rot when i watered with R/O water and all-nitrate fertilizer. Now that I use tap water with lots of calcium, coupled with urea-based fertilizer, rot is non-existent. Just my experience.



I agree, Ca is one of the most important element what hepls to keep integrity the wall of cells. Lack of Ca causes weak cell membrane gives way to the invasion of the bacterial agents. Rick mentioned the role of citrate, too and maybe it works especially with urea based fertilizers. I had a lot of erwinia problems in the past, nowadays very rare, but there are some sp. what notoriously affected, eg. philippeinense.


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## Ray (Aug 20, 2015)

eggshells said:


> Ditto! I hate using rain water. The first time I used rain water. Five of my plants got rot literally the next morning. They were fine the day before.



Add a bit of the Inocucor Garden Solution to the rainwater, and you'll not see that at all. In fact, they'll be more-than-likely improved.


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## eggshells (Aug 20, 2015)

Ray said:


> Add a bit of the Inocucor Garden Solution to the rainwater, and you'll not see that at all. In fact, they'll be more-than-likely improved.



Yeah, I heard some people uses live culture (aerobes) and put it in their water. Helps to ward off and supress nasty pathogens and anaerobic bacteria.


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## phraggy (Aug 20, 2015)

SlipperFan said:


> I'd sure like to know your bleach formula! This is way too vague for me.



Hi Dot. Nothing vague about this just the opposite. It's so easy you have nothing to think about. Our household bleach here is called Domestos. It's a thick bleach and when mixed with water ( and stirred ) produces a few bubbles on top. Just dip the whole plant including roots into it for a minute or so and all bugs will be dead. You can then clean the plant with fresh water and repot into new compost, your plant will be free from a whole manner of problems. Give it a try you might be very surprised and it wont harm the plant -- and it's cheap.

Ed


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## SlipperFan (Aug 20, 2015)

Thanks, Ed. I've not seen that kind of bleach here. I have used a 1% solution of our regular chlorine bleach in my watering at times, which has helped control fungus gnats.


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## abax (Aug 20, 2015)

Phraggy, now you must send all of us some Domestos. The
only bleach I've seen here is Clorox and it's a chlorine
bleach. I wouldn't get it anywhere near my orchids!


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## phraggy (Aug 21, 2015)

abax said:


> Phraggy, now you must send all of us some Domestos. The
> only bleach I've seen here is Clorox and it's a chlorine
> bleach. I wouldn't get it anywhere near my orchids!



Hi abax. Domestos is a 5% chlorine based bleach. No worries, No problems & No bugs . Go on don't be shy give it a go!!!

Ed


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## Linus_Cello (Aug 21, 2015)

eggshells said:


> Ditto! I hate using rain water. The first time I used rain water. Five of my plants got rot literally the next morning. They were fine the day before.



Interesting, my plants really seem to prefer rainwater; granted I have them outside, so maybe it's the additional air circulation.


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## eggshells (Aug 21, 2015)

Linus_Cello said:


> Interesting, my plants really seem to prefer rainwater; granted I have them outside, so maybe it's the additional air circulation.



Yes, but I have 5 fans blowing on them 24/7. And it really doesn't make any sense and explain 0 incident that I have prior to that and suddenly 5 plants manifested rot the next morning just after using collected (through gutters) rain water day before. 

I suspect that I introduce the bad pathogens through the rain water (It stinks after all). Unfortunately I think my mix has very little to no rhizobacteria to suppress the (bad) pathogens since they are indoors. 

Anyhow, I will try to use some inoculates. Perhaps that would help in regards to plant immune system. I have been reading a lot about *organic* biological and natural control of pest and diseases since my wife and I are expecting and I do not want to use systemics around especially indoors. I have to say that I am very intrigue about these live cultures and how they can help the plants not only for suppressing diseases and pest but also on plant growth.


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## Erythrone (Aug 21, 2015)

eggshells said:


> Yes, but I have 5 fans blowing on them 24/7. And it really doesn't make any sense and explain 0 incident that I have prior to that and suddenly 5 plants manifested rot the next morning just after using collected (through gutters) rain water day before.
> 
> I suspect that I introduce the bad pathogens through the rain water (It stinks after all). Unfortunately I think my mix has very little to no rhizobacteria to suppress the (bad) pathogens since they are indoors.
> 
> Anyhow, I will try to use some inoculates. Perhaps that would help in regards to plant immune system. I have been reading a lot about *organic* biological and natural control of pest and diseases since my wife and I are expecting and I do not want to use systemics around especially indoors. I have to say that I am very intrigue about these live cultures and how they can help the plants not only for suppressing diseases and pest but also on plant growth.



I grow my orchids almost "organically" (I still use some "chemical" fertilizers, though). Yes, I am heretic! And proud to be! I think you should try subculture B. I use it for a few years now and diseased plants are rare now.


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## eggshells (Aug 21, 2015)

Erythrone said:


> I grow my orchids almost "organically" (I still use some "chemical" fertilizers, though). Yes, I am an heretic! And proud to be! I think you should try subculture B. I used it for a few years now and diseased plants are rare now.



Thanks I will check it out.


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## daniella3d (Aug 21, 2015)

I am afraid of using rain water for my orchids. I prefer to use osmose water which is less likely to carry harmful bacterias.

Rain water is stained with all sort of nasty little microbes.

I don't beleive any biological stuff can suppress pests. It might control a bit but never supress completely. I bought 6 orchids from Le Paradis des Orchidées here in Quebec and they use only biological control. All 6 of my plants had mealy bugs and spider mites. I have to use Floramit and Imidacloprid (systemic) and glad I did. Plants started blooming and growing like mad after that. Flowers lasted months instead of days.




eggshells said:


> suddenly 5 plants manifested rot the next morning just after using collected (through gutters) rain water day before.
> 
> I suspect that I introduce the bad pathogens through the rain water (It stinks after all). Unfortunately I think my mix has very little to no rhizobacteria to suppress the (bad) pathogens since they are indoors.
> 
> Anyhow, I will try to use some inoculates. Perhaps that would help in regards to plant immune system. I have been reading a lot about *organic* biological and natural control of pest and diseases since my wife and I are expecting and I do not want to use systemics around especially indoors. I have to say that I am very intrigue about these live cultures and how they can help the plants not only for suppressing diseases and pest but also on plant growth.


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## gonewild (Aug 22, 2015)

It's not the rainwater quality that is the problem, it is how the rainwater is collected and stored. Clean rainwater is a perfect water source. But if you have unsanitary gutters or storage tanks you are exposed to harmful microbes. Clean your equipment.

It's also not likely at all that microbes in rainwater would cause rot to appear in less than 24 hours. More likely a pre-existing condition.


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## Erythrone (Aug 22, 2015)

daniella3d said:


> It might control a bit but never supress completely.



The goal with biological control is to "work with nature", and yes, that often means only controling some pests and not trying to eradicate them (they often will be back anyway with many new plants coming from orchids producers using chemicals... I received bugs from *almost* every growers.) 

I did not see any mealies in my collection for more than a year now. I am pretty sure there are still a few in my 500 plants but at such a low level that they are not disturbing. And, gosh, I saw a few thrips last months.... One plant showed Erwina last week... Only one and the plant will survive for sure!

And for many plants flowers last for months, not only a few days.... And many people got some of my plants and they never complained about pests... I just don't have real problems with disease now. Actually, my plants are healthier than ever.

By the way... I used "strong" chemicals for *decades*!!!! For my personnal use, but also at work. I applied many stuffs or have been in close contact with many "strong chemicals" : Cygon, Orthene, DDT (yes... DDT ), Chlordane, Benlate, 2-4-D, nicotine bomb (I add such nicotine in my blood my insurance company though I was a smoker...), etc.

Then one day, I decided enough is enough. It was not easy though since all is a matter of balance with biological control. I had to think differently. I now see myself like an "ecosystem manager" 

What I mean is....if something doesn't work for someone, it can work for other people. oke:


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## Secundino (Aug 22, 2015)

Erythrone said:


> Then one day, I decided enough is enough. It was not easy though since all is a matter of balance with biological control. I had to think differently. I now see myself like an "ecosystem manager"



Like that! It's like being the conductor of a very big and surprisingly diverse orchestra.

Not easy at all.


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## Erythrone (Aug 22, 2015)

Secundino said:


> Like that! It's like being the conductor of a very big and surprisingly diverse orchestra.
> 
> Not easy at all.



Not easy at first because many practices must changed. If someone wants to introduce auxiliaries, he must be able to identify the problem, he must be aware that beneficials are more tricky to 'raise' than aphids, thrips or mealies. Maybe he will discover auxilaries cannot survive in his collection because of residues of some pesticides!!! Troublesome but it is true... He will also realize many 'friends' just can't multiply as quickly as their "food". Predator-prey cycles are a natural process, and he should deal with it. But maybe like me, he will find a way to raise some "friends". And maybe like me, after a strong reduction of pest populations, he will decided to spray its collection every 3 weeks with Botanigard, applied benefial fungii and bacteria with almost every watering, and, in summer, to introduce auxilaries only once to companion plants, some bearing pollen useful for some auxiliaries (orochid pollen doesn't seem to be interesting for the auxiliairies I tried to introduce). 

But biological control is also dificult because lots of practices are not well documented for orchid growing.... there are few people growing organically orchids in the world. I think Le Paradis des Orchidées is the only commercial grower with such a certification. I often talked to the owner Laurent Leblond (we love to share ideas on the subject) and I consider him a pioneer and is always searching for new solutions.


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## daniella3d (Aug 24, 2015)

I don't know about their certification, but I can tell you that if you buy a plant from them, count of mealy bugs and trips. mine were all infested.

If you go there, you can see a table in the back full of plants that prove that biological control just don't work, at least not for them. they are simply transfering the problem to the customer.



Erythrone said:


> I think Le Paradis des Orchidées is the only commercial grower with such a certification. I often talked to the owner Laurent Leblond (we love to share ideas on the subject) and I consider him a pioneer and is always searching for new solutions.


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## Erythrone (Aug 25, 2015)

And if you come here you will see biological control could work... My plants are not infested.


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## Justin (Aug 25, 2015)

i would never pursue biological controls alone for orchid growing. to support the predator organisms you need a food supply for them, and anything other than zero tolerance for mealies, scale, etc. is not good orchid growing practice considering insects are known vectors for pathogen.


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## Erythrone (Aug 25, 2015)

Justin said:


> i would never pursue biological controls alone for orchid growing. to support the predator organisms you need a food supply for them, and anything other than zero tolerance for mealies, scale, etc. is not good orchid growing practice considering insects are known vectors for pathogen.



As I wrote, I don't rely only on auxilaries. If after 35 years of growing orchids biological control has been the most successful way of growing orchids for me, why should I change?


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## SlipperFan (Aug 25, 2015)

You shouldn't.


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