# coconut water



## TyroneGenade (Feb 28, 2011)

Hello,

I visited one of the local Chinese shops* and saw them selling canned coconut juice/water. I am wondering if anyone out there has any experience in using this canned product as a substitute for fresh coconut water. We don't often get coco nuts in our local stores and this juice seems a good alternative.

Thanks

*Since 1994 there has been a flood of Chinese immigration to South Africa and many immigrants have established little supermarkets selling Chinese produce. I can think of no better name for these shops than "Chinese shops" so no derogation is implied by myself in using this term.


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## Marc (Feb 28, 2011)

Over here in the Netherlands we would call a shop that is specialised in selling chinese / azian food stuffs a "toko".

Can't give you a answer on your question though.


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## Ernie (Feb 28, 2011)

Good question. I'd check the label to see if anything was added, but have noticed that some non-US labels are vague or in, well, not English.  

Don't sweat it, even if you had coconuts, they're a pain in the butt to make us of.  Drill, saw, etc. We laughed at Tom Hanks in _Cast Away_ when he lost the water from many a coconut, but we have trouble with even power tools.


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## likespaphs (Feb 28, 2011)

TyroneGenade said:


> ...I am wondering if anyone out there has any experience in using this canned product as a substitute for fresh coconut water.....




would this be used on the orchids or something else?


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## Rick (Feb 28, 2011)

I've heard it used as the magic ingredient in paph flasking media.

I think its great for human consumption too.


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## John M (Feb 28, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Don't sweat it, even if you had coconuts, they're a pain in the butt to make use of.  Drill, saw, etc. We laughed at Tom Hanks in _Cast Away_ when he lost the water from many a coconut, but we have trouble with even power tools.



Hey Ernie! Don't you know the "coconut trick"? You don't lose the contents and no power tools are required to access the meat. Each coconut has 3 "eyes" at one end. Only one of them is soft. Use something that is almost as wide as the "eye" and poke it through to the inside. Either shake the coconut juice out; or, a faster way to empty it is to insert a thin straw to allow air in while the juice flows out through the small hole. Filter the juice and enjoy. Then, preheat your oven to about 350 and place the now empty coconut on the middle rack for about 5 minutes (until the outside shell is just too hot to touch). Take it out and whack it with a hammer. The shell will crack and split wide open and it will separate from the white meat inside. Sometimes the shell begins to crack while in the oven. If you tap the crack with a hammer, it will continue to migrate all around the shell. I once got the shell off with the entire coconut seed still in tact. Shoulda' taken a photo; but, I was too quick to eat it instead. Of course, the meat will be warm/hot; but, not cooked. For best results, chill in the fridge for a few minutes before eating.


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## John Boy (Feb 28, 2011)

And YES!!! it is used in Orchid-Media given that it contains no added substances. If it say's 100% pure (pasteurized) it's usable (as well as delicious).


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## Rick (Feb 28, 2011)

TyroneGenade said:


> Hello,
> 
> 
> *Since 1994 there has been a flood of Chinese immigration to South Africa and many immigrants have established little supermarkets selling Chinese produce. I can think of no better name for these shops than "Chinese shops" so no derogation is implied by myself in using this term.



Not being of Asian persuasion myself I also hope also not to step on any toes, but have found that there is a fairly strong national identity amongst the store owners, so check to see of your store is owned by Chinese vs Vietnamese vs Thai vs Korean vs Cambodian vs Malaysian vs Japanese.......for extra respect.


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## Ernie (Feb 28, 2011)

John M said:


> Hey Ernie! Don't you know the "coconut trick"?



Apparently not.  I, personally, don't like the texture of coconut 'meat'. My wife and son have bought a couple out of novelty and expected the man of the house to know what to do with it. So much for that. One was a pet for the longest time- it just sat on the kitchen counter staring at us with those creepy eyes. We'd pick it up once in a while and shake it to hear the water slosh around. Then it eventually dried up. Intended on trying to make it a planter but never got around to it. The most recent coco-victim is now sitting on the garage floor. We got it open with brute strength but the fam didn't really find the water very tasty (my wife was probably expecting a pina colada to come gushing out) and the meat is stuck to the shell and getting moldy, but finally separating! The shell looks useful enough for something. Will try your suggestions on the next one to amaze them with my new skills! Thanks.


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## koshki (Feb 28, 2011)

Coconut and beets.


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## Brian Monk (Feb 28, 2011)

John M said:


> Hey Ernie! Don't you know the "coconut trick"?



Imagine, a Canuuk commenting on a post about a "Chinese store" in regards to a tropical fruit.

Only on the internet.oke:


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## John M (Feb 28, 2011)

Brian Monk said:


> Imagine, a Canuuk commenting on a post about a "Chinese store" in regards to a tropical fruit.
> 
> Only on the internet.oke:



LOL, Brian!


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## TyroneGenade (Mar 1, 2011)

Rick said:


> I've heard it used as the magic ingredient in paph flasking media.



This is the reason for my asking. I have some seed to sow. While I have got some success germinating on a banana medium the results were far from spectacular and the little protocorms don't seem very happy with it at all. So now I'm interested in hunting down some coconut water and may have found some. Guess I will have to experiment...

Can the coconut water also be used for replating?

Any other suggestions? I am yet to see organic pineapple juice locally.


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## paphioboy (Mar 1, 2011)

Well, not really related, but this discussion reminds me of this song.. :rollhappy:

Harry Belafonte - 'Coconut Woman'

Coconut woman is calling out, 
and everyday you can hear her shout, x2
"Get you coconut water (Four for five!)
man, it's good for your daughter (Four for five!)
Coco got alot of iron (Four for five!)
make you strong like a lion" (Four for five!)

A lady tell me the other day,
"Now, I can take a sweet man away"
I ask her, "what was the mystery?"
She said, "coconut water and a rice curry.
You can cook it in a pot, (Four for five!)
you can serve it very hot, (Four for five!)
Coco got alot of iron (Four for five!)
make you strong like a lion" (Roar!)

Coconut woman says,
"You'll agree , coconut makes very nice candy.
The thing that's best when you're feeling gloom,
is coconut water with a little rum.
It could make you very tipsy, (Four for five!)
make you feel like a gypsey. (Four for five!)
Coco got alot of iron (Four for five!)
make you strong like a lion." (Roar!) (Four for five!)

Aaaah! Play that thing!

Coconut woman is calling out 
and everyday you can hear her shout. x2
"Get your coconut water, (Four for five!)
man, it's good for your daughter, (Four for five!)
get your coconut candy, (Four for five!)
make you feel very dandy" (Four for five!)

Cococococococacoco... Coconut! x5
Cocacocacocacoca... Coconut! x2 
Bye bye bye bye bye... Cocacocacoco...


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## Brian Monk (Mar 1, 2011)

Coconut water has been shown to contain cytokinins, which with auxins allow the control of tissue growth and differentiation. Cytokinins may also encourage germination. Coconut water also has what are called "undefined" elements, which are probably other growht hormones, or analogs of cytokinins and auxins, that also encourage differentiation in the "correct" sequence.


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## orchidmaven (Mar 1, 2011)

I tend to stay away from these discussions however. With both feet.
Auxins, Cytokinins, and research organics tend to be heat labile. Therefore membrane filtration sterilization would retain the efficasy of the research organics, (coconut water). I have flasked Paphiopedilum for many years and in my studies have found banana tissue most effective. The limiting factor in my estimation usually has to do with Paphiopedilum photo-tropic reactions and pH issues, and not research organics and the list I have tried is quite long!

And like growing Paphiopedilums it is the dynamics not the mix or one factor, with the exception of pH. Some Paphiopedilum species are very specific about pH.

Hope this is helpful.

Theresa Hill
Hillsview Gardens


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## Brian Monk (Mar 2, 2011)

I beg to differ. Some auxins and cytokinins are heat labile, but not completely destroyed by heat. IAA, for example, is thoroughly unaffected by temperature. The only plant hormone that is completely destroyed by heat are the giberellins.


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## Rick (Mar 2, 2011)

orchidmaven said:


> I tend to stay away from these discussions however. With both feet.
> Auxins, Cytokinins, and research organics tend to be heat labile. Therefore membrane filtration sterilization would retain the efficasy of the research organics, (coconut water). I have flasked Paphiopedilum for many years and in my studies have found banana tissue most effective. The limiting factor in my estimation usually has to do with Paphiopedilum photo-tropic reactions and pH issues, and not research organics and the list I have tried is quite long!
> 
> And like growing Paphiopedilums it is the dynamics not the mix or one factor, with the exception of pH. Some Paphiopedilum species are very specific about pH.
> ...



Theresa

I think there is a lot of merrit to your comments. I have not flasked anything myself, but have noticed a pretty wide (and often consistent) success rate in germinating various paphs seed. 

For instance, it seems anyone can get great germination for sukhakulii or callosum seed. But the same people (with the same media formulas) seem to have all kinds of problems with venustum (all within the Barbata group).

Likewise lowii seems a walkin, but parrishii a pain.

Until recently some would say that randsii was impossible to breed because of inbreeding depression, but Sam figured out how to get around that, and has offered flasks of his plants. 

Probably working with hybrids homogenizes the difference between the species to where you might have more universal success with a "standard paph media".


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## orchidmaven (Mar 2, 2011)

Brian Monk said:


> I beg to differ. Some auxins and cytokinins are heat labile, but not completely destroyed by heat. IAA, for example, is thoroughly unaffected by temperature. The only plant hormone that is completely destroyed by heat are the giberellins.



Because research organics are heat labile to some extent why not filter sterilize. It's not a difficult technique and the efficacy of the research organic would be unaffected. Many new to germination of orchid seed and Paphiopedilum in particular do not understand the need for seed to germinate in complete darkness.


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## TyroneGenade (Mar 2, 2011)

Thanks for the news about banana. Do you use green or just ripe banana?

Also, how fast should the protocorms develop? Mine are now about 6 months old and are still little green dots with a little spike on top (the growth point I assume). These are of a cross of insigne x (Red Glory x Knock Knock). For a long time now the protocorms have been just sitting there doing nothing. Would replating onto fresh medium be a good idea? Germination was quite low---only 5 protocorms---and they were left to germinate in the dark.

I used Knudson C as my medium with banana as per the suggestion of Ian Walters (who also claims no problems with banana and Paphs).

Thanks


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## Brian Monk (Mar 2, 2011)

orchidmaven said:


> Because research organics are heat labile to some extent why not filter sterilize. It's not a difficult technique and the efficacy of the research organic would be unaffected. Many new to germination of orchid seed and Paphiopedilum in particular do not understand the need for seed to germinate in complete darkness.



No reason one couldn't filter sterilize. It is just an unnecessary step in media preparation. If one doesn't mind the inconvenience and (significantly) added expense of this step, then it is perfectly reasonable lab technique. I use it for gibberellins, as well as some other fungal inhibitors.

As far as seed germinating in total darkness, my answer is a solid "maybe". Certainly most epiphytic genera don't reuire any dark period, at least not in my experience. I have had various success with Paph seed, germinating in both light and dark conditions, and various combinations of the two.


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## Brian Monk (Mar 2, 2011)

TyroneGenade said:


> Thanks for the news about banana. Do you use green or just ripe banana?
> 
> Also, how fast should the protocorms develop? Mine are now about 6 months old and are still little green dots with a little spike on top (the growth point I assume). These are of a cross of insigne x (Red Glory x Knock Knock). For a long time now the protocorms have been just sitting there doing nothing. Would replating onto fresh medium be a good idea? Germination was quite low---only 5 protocorms---and they were left to germinate in the dark.
> 
> I used Knudson C as my medium with banana as per the suggestion of Ian Walters (who also claims no problems with banana and Paphs).



Use ripe banana, as ripe as you can get. I prepare a large batch with the blender, and freeze in aliquots (ice cube trays wor well, but I freeze in a large flat sheet. It maes it easier to brea pieces off to get a needed weight. I still use 25 gm/Liter, but also use 25 gm potato puree/L. If I used only banana, I would use 50 gm/L.

Most germination media has a lower concentration of sugars, so seedlings need to be replated once germination has occured to insure faster growth by providing a higher plane of nutrition. Replating onto a "hotter" media may help your protocorms grow faster.


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## TyroneGenade (Mar 2, 2011)

Thanks of the info, Brian. I will replate and see where that goes.

Interesting about the very ripe bananas. Others I have spoken to swear by green bananas---maybe that is why their Paph's don't germinate. Mine were semi-ripe (as green as I could get them).

I wonder if using less banana and more potato is your secret to Paph success. Thoughts, anyone?


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## orchidmaven (Mar 2, 2011)

TyroneGenade said:


> Thanks for the news about banana. Do you use green or just ripe banana?
> 
> Also, how fast should the protocorms develop? Mine are now about 6 months old and are still little green dots with a little spike on top (the growth point I assume). These are of a cross of insigne x (Red Glory x Knock Knock). For a long time now the protocorms have been just sitting there doing nothing. Would replating onto fresh medium be a good idea? Germination was quite low---only 5 protocorms---and they were left to germinate in the dark.
> 
> ...



I use Gerber Baby Food 'First Food' banana. It works the best and is consistent for quality. 

I keep my mother bottles in complete darkness for at least 6 weeks before checking for germination. Do not keep peaking at the bottles. Let them be! After 6 weeks I am looking for white protocorm masses with maximum germination. The leaf primordial will be showing attached to a protocorm. They will be completely white, no photosynthesis will occur till you put them in the light.

Some crosses will be more productive than others. 

I use as a base medium PytoTechnology Labs medium, P658 Orchid Maintenance Medium to which I add research organics and other additions from our last 35 years of experimentation. This will give you a good start and PhytoTechnology Labs will help with technique. 

Hope this is helpful without giving away the store!

Sincerely,

Theresa Hill
Hillsview Gardens


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## Brian Monk (Mar 2, 2011)

I have used the baby food mashed bananas as well, but my experience is different thaqn yours, Theresa. However, you can't beat bananas in a jar for consistency and ease!

When I was growing up, and I would develop a leg cramp, my mother always told me I needed more potassium, and to eat a banana. Is this familiar to anyone else? The reason I ask is because we know that an incpotassium drives root growth, encouraging longer and deeper roots. Is there any trtuth to the idea that bananas have a significant level of potassium in them? Might this also encourage stronger growth of protocorms, or at least drive earlier differentiation?


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## chrismende (Mar 3, 2011)

Wow, Theresa! You gave us a lot! (not that I'm about to try this yet...)


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## chrismende (Mar 3, 2011)

As an aside for Brian: my iPhone nutrition program tells me :100 grams of raw banana has an average of 358 mg potassium vs 100 grams of orange juice having only 181 mg. Boiled kidney beans have more, though: 100 grams = 419 mg potassium!


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## Ernie (Mar 3, 2011)

If I was stranded on an island and had only one tree to choose to find/grow, it'd be banana.


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## Marc (Mar 3, 2011)

Ernie said:


> If I was stranded on an island and had only one tree to choose to find/grow, it'd be banana.



I must agree with you completely as long as I can remember I'm eating a banana each and every day for breakfast. It's even that bad that I can become grumpy when were out of banana's. :rollhappy:


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