# First Bud of the Black Leucochilums



## DrLeslieEe (May 22, 2021)

Two days ago this peeked out... signalling the end of their wintry hibernation and the coming of the brachy season in my little forest abode.

It also means summer is here... earlier than most years in Canada. But I’m not complaining lol.


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## GuRu (May 22, 2021)

Leslie, this looks promising and not really sure, but it seems a first time bloomer. So hopefully it is a true leucochilum with a pure white pouch.
I will buy my next leucochilum only in flower to see if the pouch has spots. Good luck and fingers crossed!


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## DrLeslieEe (May 22, 2021)

Rudolf, this is a black petal leucochilum that I bought in bloom that has solid black petals, and speckled lip. Though lip is not white, it came from leuco line.


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## Ozpaph (May 23, 2021)

the outside of the bud doesnt look black


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## DrLeslieEe (May 23, 2021)

Ozpaph said:


> the outside of the bud doesnt look black


Yes many are white flowers with dense black spots that coalesce in the front into black areas. Only one or two of mine are black on both front and back. This isn’t one of them.


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## Hien (May 23, 2021)

exciting


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## werner.freitag (May 24, 2021)

just wait


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## DrLeslieEe (May 26, 2021)

Another bud!!! Must be the season for black leucochilums...


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## DrLeslieEe (Jun 9, 2021)

Finally! It’s opening… never thought I’d see the day! 

Introducing ‘Darth Vader Too’!








Still expanding so let’s see in a few days the results.


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## NYEric (Jun 9, 2021)

Not bad.


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## Hien (Jun 9, 2021)

there seems to be a few separated lines of black breeding.
this one is relying on the spots to be close enough to become black , the shape is good . Are both of them divisions ? or just the leucochilum CH 'Blackest Knight' (chingher orchids?) ?
The second line breeding is the Red Vulcano breeding, which the Bordeaux wine red, the flowers are saturated , but the shapes are cupped .
I am looking forward to see the other breeding line that you have , saturated total black front & black back plants (perhaps similar to these?)


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## DrLeslieEe (Jun 9, 2021)

Today it opened flatter… 





This isn’t the breeding from Chinghua, although I have a few. Selected seedlings from first bloom couple years ago.


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## Hien (Jun 9, 2021)

DrLeslieEe said:


> Today it opened flatter…
> 
> View attachment 28304
> View attachment 28305
> ...


was "Blackest Knight" a clone named by yourself (if it is not a division plant) ?


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## DrLeslieEe (Jun 10, 2021)

I don’t remember naming ‘Blackest Knight’ but I like that name … so maybe I’ll use that for my other leucochilums. 

I also don’t have divisions, just original plants selected from first blooms.


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## Ozpaph (Jun 10, 2021)

i like this one better than the 'all black' ones


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## GuRu (Jun 10, 2021)

Leslie, these are lovely flowers I like them very much, but........



DrLeslieEe said:


> Rudolf, this is a black petal leucochilum that I bought in bloom that has solid black petals, and speckled lip. Though lip is not white, it came from leuco line.



even with your explaination I can't understand why you call them Paph. leucochilum. In my understanding you as a well-respected judge couldn't judge these plants as Paph. leucochilum.....even when some anchestors (which you don't know) had been Pap. leucochilum and even when Paph. leucochilum is written on the tag. Or am I wrong?


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## Hien (Jun 10, 2021)

DrLeslieEe said:


> I don’t remember naming ‘Blackest Knight’ but I like that name … so maybe I’ll use that for my other leucochilums.
> 
> I also don’t have divisions, just original plants selected from first blooms.


The Tag inside the small bud plant's pot , in the photo said the clone name is 'Blackest Knight'


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## DrLeslieEe (Jun 11, 2021)

Hien said:


> The Tag inside the small bud plant's pot , in the photo said the clone name is 'Blackest Knight'


OMG you’re right lol. 

I had made tags of these two years ago, and named them … I like to play with words and wanted it to sound like ‘Blackest Night’. And forgot completely I used ‘Knight’ to spice it up. 

So yes ‘Blackest Knight’ is another selected from first bloom with darker flowers. That is, hopefully, I didn’t put in the wrong black leucochilum. We will see in 2-3 weeks.


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## DrLeslieEe (Jun 11, 2021)

GuRu said:


> Leslie, these are lovely flowers I like them very much, but........
> 
> 
> 
> even with your explaination I can't understand why you call them Paph. leucochilum. In my understanding you as a well-respected judge couldn't judge these plants as Paph. leucochilum.....even when some anchestors (which you don't know) had been Pap. leucochilum and even when Paph. leucochilum is written on the tag. Or am I wrong?


I completely understand your logic that a non-white pouch cannot be designated the term leucochilum. The very term defies the definition of what we see. 

However, in order to keep the lineage correct, that this plant came from breeding only from leucochilums and sibs, and not from godefroyae, the name remains despite the visual discrepancy. 

Since leucochilum has full species status (WCSP 2021), it is more important now than ever to keep this separation intact. 

Thus, this will be judged as leucochilum, and not godefroyae, all over the world today.


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## tnyr5 (Jun 11, 2021)

Lovely, now make one as dark as those Account lines, but with a pure white pouch.


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## GuRu (Jun 11, 2021)

tnyr5 said:


> Lovely, now make one as dark as those Account lines, but with a pure white pouch.



I completely agree.......because this will avoid confusion.


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## Michael Bonda (Jun 11, 2021)

A beautiful flower indeed. I see why Dr. Leslie is fond of black colored paphs.


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## Guldal (Jun 16, 2021)

DrLeslieEe said:


> ...in order to keep the lineage correct, that this plant came from breeding only from leucochilums and sibs....


As I'm here in agreement with Rudolf, I would love to see photos of all the alleged leucochilums forming the ancestral lineage for your flower to ascertain whether they are all indeed leuchos - or whether somewhere along the line a (good) godefroyae misidentified as leucho shows up?


DrLeslieEe said:


> A) Since leucochilum has full species status (WCSP 2021), it is more important now than ever to keep this separation intact.
> B) Thus, this will be judged as leucochilum, and not godefroyae, all over the world today.


Re A: Since your flower does not adhere to the botanical description of leucochilum, it might instead count as proof, that the decision to raise leuchos to species status is wrong - and that it, even more so if your plant's ancestry is profoundly leucochilum, would make much more sense to sink both leuchos and godefroyaes within the species godefroyae, as the outside, pure white pouch in casu can't be seen as a stable trait.
Re B: Which doesn't say anything definitive about the botanical status of these plants!

PS. I got so carried away, that I almost forgot to state how much I like your wonderful godefroyae!


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## Ozpaph (Jun 16, 2021)

its a spurious argument. A few spots on the pouch doesnt invalidate the 'speciation'. There werent any 'black' leuco/godefroyaes when the species was described. So does that make it a new species or form? I dont think so. These are all heavily line bred. There will be more variation. 
Maybe one day genetic testing will tell the tale (they will probably be indistinguishable, genetically)


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## DrLeslieEe (Jun 20, 2021)

Finally, the brother Blackest Knight has arrived!! And he’s a handsome one!


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## orchidmouse (Jun 20, 2021)

Marvelous!


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## Ozpaph (Jun 20, 2021)

great colour and petals nice and 'flat'.


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## GuRu (Jun 21, 2021)

Leslie, these are gorgeous flowers, without any doubt......but you know we can't find consensus about their name....Lol


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## DrLeslieEe (Jun 21, 2021)

GuRu said:


> Leslie, these are gorgeous flowers, without any doubt......but you know we can't find consensus about their name....Lol


I agree, so I will call them godefroyae (former leucochilum) lol.


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## TyroneGenade (Jun 21, 2021)

It is unreasonable to expect textbook leucochiliums from intensely selectively bred plants. The goal of the breeding is to create aberrations like what we see here. We know from pylori mutations that pouch color can transfer to the petals and vice versa. What we see here is hardly surprising.


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## Hien (Jun 21, 2021)

yes, breeding material for sure ,
I mean ,cross them to each other right away,
unless you are waiting for another black ready to bloom in a few day.


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## Guldal (Jun 21, 2021)

DrLeslieEe said:


> Finally, the brother Blackest Knight has arrived!! And he’s a handsome one!View attachment 28496
> View attachment 28497


Gorgeous beauties both of them!   



Ozpaph said:


> There werent any 'black' leuco/godefroyaes when the species was described. So does that make it a new species or form?


Stephen, you are indeed right, there weren't any 'black' godefroyaes, when the species was described - but the original, botanical description of godefroyae had it with spotting on the outer lip. Both Leslie's flowers adhere to that description.
The botanists that afterwards tried to establish godefroyae var. or fma. leucochilum described the flowers of these plants as having an outer unspotted pouch.
Thus, actually, "a few spots on the pouch" does "invalidate the 'speciation'" form a morphological point of view!

I've seen someone trying to distinguish more clearly between godefroyae and leucochilum by referring to differences in other morphological features as f.ex. differences in leaves or roots. I haven't, though, stumbled upon litterature, where these differences have been really convincingly described. If anyone here is familiar with articles or authors describing such differences validly, I would really be happy to know?!

However, Stephen might be right in ascertaining, that further progression and refinement in genetics could be, what's needed as the final solution to whether we are dealing with two varieties or colourforms of godefroyae (fma. godefroyae and fma. leucochilum) or two distinct species in their own right?


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## NYEric (Jun 21, 2021)

Wt...?


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## richgarrison (Jun 22, 2021)

tnyr5 said:


> Lovely, now make one as dark as those Account lines, but with a pure white pouch.


Photo shop?


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## tnyr5 (Jun 22, 2021)

If we can make complex greens that are almost 20cm across from the species of subgenus Paphiopedilum, we can make a black leucochilum with a white pouch. *stomps foot*


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