# Should this self cross continue



## baodai (Aug 29, 2009)

Your opinion needed, Should this his varigated pah helen continue self cross? what percentage seedling will be varigated?
Thanks,
BD


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## Drorchid (Aug 29, 2009)

That type of variegation pattern is not consistent from leaf to leaf, and usually that trait is not genetic, so it won't get inherited to the next generation. If you self it, all seedlings will have green leaves. The only way to keep that variegation, is to divide the plant.

Robert


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## goldenrose (Aug 29, 2009)

Robert does say 'usually' .........
or anyone else have a variegated helenae? .........
or a variegated anything that would make a nice X with helenae?


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## gonewild (Aug 29, 2009)

Drorchid said:


> That type of variegation pattern is not consistent from leaf to leaf, and usually that trait is not genetic, so it won't get inherited to the next generation.
> Robert



If the trait is not genetic what causes it?


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## mccallen (Aug 29, 2009)

gonewild said:


> If the trait is not genetic what causes it?



Well...not stable and heritable is probably a more accurate way of saying it.

Things like this are generally the result of the organism being a genetic
chimera.


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## PaphMadMan (Aug 29, 2009)

Yes, a chimera, 2 distinct tissue types in the same plant. A new growth might be completely white or completely green, and every leaf in a mixed white/green growth may have a different pattern. Rather than a chromosomal genetic difference it is probably a chloroplast defect in the white tissue, or complete lack of chloroplasts. While this could be passed on to progeny, a single reproductive cell would be either 'white' or 'green', not a mix, and if it was 'white' it would give rise to a plant with no chlorophyll, which would not survive. Chloroplasts are inherited through the mother line only, never from the pollen.


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## gonewild (Aug 29, 2009)

So is the chloroplast defect a genetic defect that is simply not normally passed along to progeny? Or is it a defect that is not genetic?


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## SlipperFan (Aug 29, 2009)

What kind of pot/medium is that in???


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## PaphMadMan (Aug 29, 2009)

gonewild said:


> So is the chloroplast defect a genetic defect that is simply not normally passed along to progeny? Or is it a defect that is not genetic?



Chloroplasts only arise from other chloroplasts. They can't be produced in a cell that lacks them. The original chloroplasts in a plant embryo are passed on from the mother line through the egg cell (at least in most plants). They also have a few genes of their own that are independant of the chromosomal DNA. They probably arose from intracellular symbiotic photsynthetic bacteria that became a permanent part of the host over eons of evolution.

The most likely case is that the white tissue lacks chloroplasts completely through a random accident at a cell division within the meristem of the plant. All parts of the plant that arose from the chloroplast-free cell are white because they lack the green pigments that are only found in chloroplasts. Alternatively, there could have been a cell where a mutation in the DNA of the chloroplast itself prevents it from making chlorophyll, and any cells that contain only these chlorophyll-free chloroplasts are white.

Either way, the defect can't be passed along genetically, though it may be due to the genes of the chloroplast itself.

This type of variegation due to a sectoral chimera is different than plants that normally have variegated leaves that occur in regular patterns. Those are due to chromosomal genes so they can be inherited.


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## gonewild (Aug 29, 2009)

Thanks for the explanation.


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## Faan (Aug 30, 2009)

goldenrose said:


> or a variegated anything that would make a nice X with helenae?



The flower in my avatar is insigne f sanderianum and it is a variegated plant. I have not been able to make any crosses with it yet. I have only tried once as I have not had the plant that long, but as soon as it flowers I will try again.

Has anyone got any suggestions as to what I should try it with?

Go to this post if you want to see it: http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=43145&highlight=insigne+sanderianum#post43145


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## NYEric (Aug 30, 2009)

IN DC last year there was a plant similar to your insigne for sale.


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## baodai (Aug 30, 2009)

Thank you all, I will try to cross it with hangi varigated. We will find out, wish me luck
Thanks,
BD


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## orchidmaven (Sep 1, 2009)

PaphMadMan said:


> Chloroplasts only arise from other chloroplasts. They can't be produced in a cell that lacks them. The original chloroplasts in a plant embryo are passed on from the mother line through the egg cell (at least in most plants). They also have a few genes of their own that are independant of the chromosomal DNA. They probably arose from intracellular symbiotic photsynthetic bacteria that became a permanent part of the host over eons of evolution.
> 
> The most likely case is that the white tissue lacks chloroplasts completely through a random accident at a cell division within the meristem of the plant. All parts of the plant that arose from the chloroplast-free cell are white because they lack the green pigments that are only found in chloroplasts. Alternatively, there could have been a cell where a mutation in the DNA of the chloroplast itself prevents it from making chlorophyll, and any cells that contain only these chlorophyll-free chloroplasts are white.
> 
> ...



Very interesting discussion. I have used Paph. Greenvale 'Hillsview' in a number of different crosses. I noticed early on that a percentage of seedling were showing up with veriegated foliage. Only when Paph. Greenvale was used as the pod parent. I would assume the veriegation is coming from the mitocondrial DNA? It is interesting that not all crosses using Paph. Greenvale 'Hillsview' as a pod parent yield veriegation. Only some of the crosses. Typically greens and also Paph. Hellas 'Westonbirt'.

Theresa


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## PaphMadMan (Sep 2, 2009)

orchidmaven said:


> Very interesting discussion. I have used Paph. Greenvale 'Hillsview' in a number of different crosses. I noticed early on that a percentage of seedling were showing up with veriegated foliage. Only when Paph. Greenvale was used as the pod parent. I would assume the veriegation is coming from the mitocondrial DNA? It is interesting that not all crosses using Paph. Greenvale 'Hillsview' as a pod parent yield veriegation. Only some of the crosses. Typically greens and also Paph. Hellas 'Westonbirt'.
> 
> Theresa



Interesting. Do you have a photo of the variegation? Is the pattern consistent? That it only occurs only with some pollen parents suggests that it probably isn't simply a sectoral chimera like the case discussed here. Some complex interaction of chloroplast and nuclear DNA may be involved. It is less likely that mitochondrial DNA plays a part.


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