# vendor integrity?



## likespaphs (Jun 26, 2006)

so...there's this Paph on eBay i'd kinda like. it's got a low starting bid and fairly hard to find.
the vendor is known to take pictures from other's website and use them in their auction. when this person was confronted on another website, they didn't see the error of their ways.
i have emailed the business from which the photo was taken to determine if the photo was legitimately used.
if i find out it's not can i bid on the plant or am i dipping my ethics and letting my greed for this plant overwhelm?


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## Marco (Jun 26, 2006)

Well if i was in the position and found out that his pictures we're used without permission or if it seems like photos were altered and they weren't a well known vendor link antec, or the like. I wouldn't buy it. What about if its tagged wrong or something? Who knows?

But if I really want the plant. And its worth the money and the risk then I'd buy it. I'd request for a current photo of the plant first though if its not already posted.


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## PHRAG (Jun 26, 2006)

I will say the same thing on this forum that I said on the other one. That seller does not deserve one dime from anyone until he stops stealing photos. Not only did he not take any responsibility for his actions, he was a childish whiner when confronted about it. 

Please do not support him, even if that photo is not stolen. I guarantee you at least one of his other auctions is using a stolen photo as we speak.

As someone who used to rely on photography for a living, I can tell you photo theft is a huge problem, and does impact someone whether you think it does or not.

If you are looking at the paph I think you are looking at, buy it from Parkside. They deserve your business.


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## littlefrog (Jun 26, 2006)

If you are in any way concerned about a vendor's ethical character, don't hesitate to avoid doing business with them. You don't need proof. All you need the perception of impropriety. Honor is a precious thing, easy to start with, hard to maintain, and even harder to get back once you lose it.

Sure, maybe the person is using photos with permission. Let him prove that, you don't need to. Until then, buy from somebody else. 

What are you looking for, anyway?


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## silence882 (Jun 26, 2006)

I have had very few bad experiences with eBay vendors. Most are reasonable sellers and enjoy their work.

However, if there's even a shadow of a doubt about a seller or their product, I would stay away. There are too many people out there looking for a quick buck.

One thing I've learned: Stay the hell away from Neo Orchids! They steal photos, color-shift their coerula photos, and sell crappy plants. I bought two phrag divisions from them that were in horrific condition when they arrived. When i asked about why they had just been potted up, leaving the decaying medium to kill the roots, and were falling over out of their pots, all I got was 'That is inconsistent with our policies, you're welcome to return the plants for store credit.'

--Stephen


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## Morphidae (Jun 26, 2006)

"buy it from Parkside. They deserve your business." 

Parkside has quite a few uncredited photos taken from the web on their site, what is different about this from ebay. It's wrong either way.


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## adiaphane (Jun 26, 2006)

Don't support bad vendors... I definitely would not. I would rather spend the extra buck and support the growers who have integrity and honesty, then go for the cheap deal.


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## PHRAG (Jun 26, 2006)

Morphidae said:


> "buy it from Parkside. They deserve your business."
> 
> Parkside has quite a few uncredited photos taken from the web on their site, what is different about this from ebay. It's wrong either way.


 
Uncredited, and "without permission" are two different things.


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## Jmoney (Jun 26, 2006)

may I ask which vendor? I've never purchased from neo, but their flagrant use of the contrast button, their extensive use of "library pics", and ridiculous descriptions steered me clear.

there are a few exceptional vendors on ebay for paphs, I mean some of the healthiest paphs I've gotten off ebay. then there are some that aren't so reliable. often the listing will give you clues as to whether the vendor is trustworthy.


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## Heather (Jun 26, 2006)

I have to say, I'm rather with Jason on this. I'd like to see one online forum be out and open about this sort of thing. 

I've had good luck with OrchidPaphJack (that name isn't quite right but Jack Schendowich) Paphrag, ShermantTP, and Suncoast (I bought my first plants from the Suncoast, and I have none of them now because they weren't really "great" plants but they were super healthy! As a newbie, they, Beth, did a great job at helping me out and making sure I was happy) and one pending... I think that is all I have bought from. And all the plants were as advertised. 

However, I would not buy again from OrchidTN. 
The plant I received was as advertised but I must say that I later noticed them using the same "this is the exact plant you are buying" plant photo on a philippinense, and the next week - same photo - on a roth.

Neo - I have not been impressed with.
Orchidspeed - needs to get *off* the speed! Take some decent pics and lose the million exclamation points. And stop re-listing the "same" plants for three years!!


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## SlipperFan (Jun 26, 2006)

PHRAG said:


> As someone who used to rely on photography for a living, I can tell you photo theft is a huge problem, and does impact someone whether you think it does or not.



As a former teacher of Photography Technology and Freelance Photographer, I totally agree.


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## Heather (Jun 26, 2006)

Ahem...scuse the rant...

To the original question. I think this is a larger issue. Relating more to how to sell effectively on ebay. 

Clearly, without a blooming photo, your sales will not be as high as they could be. So, what do you do if the plant that you are selling has not bloomed? Do you go to a person who has bloomed it and ask permission to use their photo? (and do you do the right thing and credit them??? Surely hope so!) The grex (ie. Lady Isabel), the exact parents (ie. 'Bion' x 'Bion')? what if they say no? what do you do? Do you ask every vendor who has that plant available or photographed online if you can use their photo? What if they ALL say NO? 

(disclaimer: I am not defending this by any means - but I tried to sell a few things recently on ebay and they were plants I had not bloomed myself and I didn't want to deal with the hassle of getting permission to get blooming photos from others which would have been so variable anyways it was just a complete waste of time! So I just posted photos of the plants with no blooms. I thought that the safest.) 

I think that not having blooming photos caused my plants to go for less money than they might have raised had there been blooming photos available. However, I was not interested in the money as much as getting some good feedback. The tactic was not my focus, but I think it is for many! 

ARE plant photos enough for you?
If not - if the photos/plants have attributions - is that enough?


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## adiaphane (Jun 26, 2006)

Whenever I look for plants on ebay, I would rather have the actual photo of the plant. I usually know what I want when I shop, and have a good idea of what the blooms will look like. Now, if I wanted a particular cross of a particular clone, I'll try to search for it on the web. I would rather the seller not steal photos, and instead, when I ask for a bloomed photo, to have the seller direct me to a site that does have one. I think that that is much better than taking credit for other people's work.


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## SlipperFan (Jun 26, 2006)

Using other's photos without permission is stealing. It is wrong, unethical, and against the law. If a person doesn't have a photo of the plant they are selling, and doesn't want to bother getting permission, or paying a phototographer for the use of one, then a verbal description should do. It's really that simple.


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## Mycorrhizae (Jun 26, 2006)

I think there are several things a vendor can do if they do not have bloom photos, especially if the plant up for auction is a hybrid. If the plant is a species, you can always suggest that the bidder use an internet search engine to locate photos of that species. If it is a hybrid - it may be too new for photos to exist, but there are other things a seller can do.

Even without a flower photo, displaying a photo of the actual plant up for auction gives the bidder a chance to see exactly what condition the plant is in, what size it is, the color of the leaves, the number of growths, the size in relation to its pot - all of these things are important to a buyer. For example, a plant might be advertised in a 5" pot, but the photo might reveal that it really belongs in a 3" pot. 

In the case of hybrids, sometimes all you can expect is a good photo of each parent if the auction plant has not yet bloomed. Sometimes a photo is available of a previously-bloomed sibling from the same cross. 

If a photo is available but permission to use it cannot be acquired, then the next best thing is to carefully describe the flower using those writing skills you insisted to your 7th grade Creative Writing instructor that you would never need. 

I have used all of these methods to sell unbloomed seedlings for hundreds of dollars - and never had to resort to stealing someone else's photo. You never really get a second chance to clear your name once the Net starts talkin' smack about you so you just can't ever give it a chance to start.

There's just no excuse to steal photos. The disgusting sense of entitlement many people feel just because there isn't a lock and key on something is nauseating. It's not only stealing, it demonstrates a complete lack of respect for anyone else, and it could be a sad prediction of how your transaction will go - with the vendor showing that same lack of respect and consideration for you.


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## SlipperFan (Jun 26, 2006)

Hear! Hear!


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## Jmoney (Jun 27, 2006)

Heather said:


> I have to say, I'm rather with Jason on this. I'd like to see one online forum be out and open about this sort of thing.
> 
> I've had good luck with OrchidPaphJack (that name isn't quite right but Jack Schendowich) Paphrag, ShermantTP, and Suncoast (I bought my first plants from the Suncoast, and I have none of them now because they weren't really "great" plants but they were super healthy! As a newbie, they, Beth, did a great job at helping me out and making sure I was happy) and one pending... I think that is all I have bought from. And all the plants were as advertised.
> 
> ...



I have had a couple of nice plants from suncoast. Too bad they don't sell more paphs. OrchidTN I caught using a Bel Royal pic that was taken less than a week prior to their unauthorized use. It was removed after I demanded it be; however as I had been contemplating purchasing at some point, that's one fewer customer for them. paphrag used to sell some large plants from excellent breeding lines for dirt cheap. doesn't seem to do that much now though. shermanTP I've seen using my pics a couple of times. always has an excuse though and an apology  

if you like aluminum foil as packaging, then orchidspeed is your vendor.

enough with the smack, some of the healthiest paphs I've ever purchased were from dnl.orchidshop. some of their stuff can be had for cheap too.


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## Mahon (Jun 27, 2006)

Hey, if it's that Paph. godefroyae var. alba with the pic of a flower and part of the plant, then the "actual plant" inside the same frame... it's not the actual species they are offering up... the leaves are much different, looks like it is P. primulinum x P. bellatum (or one of those related species)...

I wouldn't trust them if they were stealing pics... they have a criminal mindset in action, so you may never see your plant or get your money back... don't even do it even if it comes to like $5... because they do that to 20 people, then they made an easy $100... 

-Pat


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## Carol (Jun 27, 2006)

*Orchid Babies*

Hi,
Has anyone purchased from Orchid Babies nursery in Alabama? I am looking to purchase a Paph Shin-Yi Prince(Prince Edward of York x sanderianum) and located one in their web catalog. I also saw one in the Parkside catalog, but their shipping is very high. I also pay state tax since I live in Western PA.
OR, does anyone have any suggestions where I might purchase this paph.


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## PHRAG (Jun 27, 2006)

I have ordered a couple of times from Orchid Babies and always been happy with the plants I have received. That is my experience.


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## Jmoney (Jun 27, 2006)

well yet another time "shermantp" has grabbed a photo of mine without permission. this time I'll make it clear that he isn't to use any more and not to bother to ask permission.

I used to be able to end ebay listings after complaining about photo theft...I wonder if it still works. the funny thing is these aren't even professional-quality photos...but I still paid a lot of money for my camera and I'll be damned if some mofo I don't know is using them to help sell a plant.


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## Heather (Jun 27, 2006)

Nitidissimum huh? 
Dang.... timely....

I would have no issue at all if these people asked for, and received, permission. In general, though, it seems that they just don't take the time to even ask! Which is really pretty wretched.


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## silence882 (Jun 28, 2006)

Hrm i didn't know shermantp was filching pics. I've gotten a few plants from him and they've been top quality.

--Stephen


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## Marco (Jun 28, 2006)

I dunno if shermantp rips pictures. After taking a quick look at his for sale inventory, his Phal. pulchra is the same from http://www.doweryorchids.com/phal.htm.

I don't know if it is used with permission, but there is no reference to dowery.


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## Jmoney (Jun 28, 2006)

I don't think you can necessarily correlate stealing pics with bad plants...I've gotten maybe two from this guy, a cattleya that showed up OK (not bursting with vigor but acceptable) that never grew and eventually died, and a phal amabilis that I gave away as a gift. I've never refused a pic request from a vendor with whom I have a good relationship, but this guy has taken my pics at least 3 times in the past (without asking), and feigns ignorance and apologies when confronted. Enough is enough.


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## paphreek (Jun 28, 2006)

shermantp has occasionally offered divisions that I have been interested in. I will now ignore his offerings.


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## Jmoney (Jun 28, 2006)

I appreciate the sentiment...I am not calling for a boycott, just telling it like it is, while we're on the subject. I take no offense if all of you bid on his stuff, I just won't.


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