# CURRENT BREEDING TRENDS WORLDWIDE



## firehawk1972 (May 5, 2019)

This should be an interesting topic. What are you impressions/thoughts on current breding trends in paphs, especially multiflorals?
I have noticed that plants I have acquired in the last couple of years have flowers that are 2 or 3 times the size of plants that I acquired 5 years or more ago. Add it also seems that a persistent goal in roth line breeding has been larger flowers that are flatter with wider and wider dorsal sepals.
I would love to hear other countries' perspectives, too.. Pictured here is a recent acquisition, Paphiopedilum Spidermaster (Spiderman x rothschildianum)


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## Tony (May 5, 2019)

I see you grabbed the plant I forgot to bid on lol


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## firehawk1972 (May 5, 2019)

Tony said:


> I see you grabbed the plant I forgot to bid on lol


 The seller had more of the same cross by the way


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## Justin (May 5, 2019)

Really good one.

I am excited about current roth breeding. Also anything with adductum or anitum.


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## firehawk1972 (May 5, 2019)

Justin said:


> Really good one.
> 
> I am excited about current roth breeding. Also anything with adductum or anitum.


This one has adductum in the background (Spiderman = Michael Koopowitz x adductum)


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## Ozpaph (May 5, 2019)

Thats a lovely flower and a humungous photo!
Your observations are correct. Just read Sam's (Orchid Inn) lists to see what the standards are - roth hybrids - 6 flowers, dorsals at least 60mm, aiming 70mm, fat petals, 30cm. Darker colours. Faster growers. ..... can't wait for the seedlings to grow up.


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## musa (May 6, 2019)

Just bought some roth seedlings, so my answer will take somer more years...
btw, is there a Grammatophyllum in the background?


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## Tony (May 6, 2019)

I really love the crosses that have been done with anitum, but multi breeding in general seems to be headed toward fairly homogenous roths-like plants. I'm not a big fan of repetitive backcrosses, it gets to a point where you may as well just grow the species.

What I would most like to see is continued line breeding to work toward higher quality, easier growing species and the use of less popular species like randsii, kolopakingii, supardii, etc in breeding for a bit of variety instead of just trying to turn everything into a roths.


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## firehawk1972 (May 6, 2019)

musa said:


> Just bought some roth seedlings, so my answer will take somer more years...
> btw, is there a Grammatophyllum in the background?


Yes, it is my 12 year old G speciosum....I also have G wallisii, a giant G elegans, Broga Tiger, and more


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## firehawk1972 (May 6, 2019)

Tony said:


> I really love the crosses that have been done with anitum, but multi breeding in general seems to be headed toward fairly homogenous roths-like plants. I'm not a big fan of repetitive backcrosses, it gets to a point where you may as well just grow the species.
> 
> What I would most like to see is continued line breeding to work toward higher quality, easier growing species and the use of less popular species like randsii, kolopakingii, supardii, etc in breeding for a bit of variety instead of just trying to turn everything into a roths.


I have a large multi-growth Kolosand that I'm hoping will bloom this year..


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## spujr (May 6, 2019)

Nice topic!

On one hand, you are right, breeding efforts have led to bigger flowers. However, I think there is still a side trend in trying to miniturize the plant and make the inflorenscence more compact.

General color intensity is an important goal, which is one reason anitum crosses are popular.

I agree with Tony about about producing easier grown species. I think slowly we are doing that indirectly by continue culture of these plants, "survival at home in my conditions of the fittest".

I don't often see orchid producers making strategic crosses in the sense of improving the species itself. In some ways it's more like, "let's cross everything by everything and see what we get!". In my honest opinion some of the Parvi x Multiple primary hybrids are downright ugly. I guess there is a breeding emphasis towards novelty.

Personally I would like to see more backcross breeding, if only to drive taxidermist and judges crazy. Should a "Roth x sand x Roth x Roth x roth" be compared to a standard Roth?


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## firehawk1972 (May 6, 2019)

spujr said:


> Nice topic!
> 
> On one hand, you are right, breeding efforts have led to bigger flowers. However, I think there is still a side trend in trying to miniturize the plant and make the inflorenscence more compact.
> 
> ...


I agree totally... and who the heck knows what the judges want anyway?
I hate that the judging system is subjective, and not specific, i.e. x points for color, x points for shape, etc, with clear standards


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## Tony (May 6, 2019)

firehawk1972 said:


> I have a large multi-growth Kolosand that I'm hoping will bloom this year..



I just picked up a Kolosand x WBW. The flowers got a little beat up on shipping but I'm excited to see what it can do in the future. It has five flowers as a first bloomer, I'm hoping the kolo in it will push more as it matures.


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## Tony (May 6, 2019)

spujr said:


> I don't often see orchid producers making strategic crosses in the sense of improving the species itself. In some ways it's more like, "let's cross everything by everything and see what we get!". In my honest opinion some of the Parvi x Multiple primary hybrids are downright ugly. I guess there is a breeding emphasis towards novelty.



I love Parvis almost as much as multis, but the intersectional crosses are awful. Intersectional crosses in general don't do it for me.



> Personally I would like to see more backcross breeding, if only to drive taxidermist and judges crazy. Should a "Roth x sand x Roth x Roth x roth" be compared to a standard Roth?



You are the worst kind of person lol


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## pluckerup (May 7, 2019)

Intersectional crosses are the first step towards breeding multis with 4-5 flowers and lots of bright vibrant colours. Keep an eye on that breeding, although some could be end of line breeding - sterile. 
Long term, I wonder how much line breeding is going on with sanderianum and anitum. If there was the same type of work done like the Roths, then lookout. Is there any work going on with ploidy conversions that could really make a difference, especially with the big roths.


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## Paph Paradise (May 7, 2019)

I can only claim to be a novice roth breeder since mine are still years from blooming, but here's my take.

The plants themselves have indeed gotten much larger, especially Orchid Zone breeding. Terry liked big flowers. Flowers are in essence modified leaves so bigger flowers came along with bigger leaves. 

Addressing spujr's comment that they are not bred strategically, that is not always the case. It depends on the breeder. Machan at Tokyo Orchid Nursery breeds for compact growing plants and fast turn around from flask to flower. I have a line that seeks to enhance red color and another where we are aiming for solid colored petals. If we have a particularly large flower we will usually cross that into a very dark strain in hope of getting the best of both parents in some of the offspring. In the end, bigger and darker is always better. At least that's seems to be what folks want. 

We have one clone that was awarded with 7 flower on one spike on its first bloom. Looks like 7 again this year but it did seem like it wanted to have 8 on its first bloom. We are having a terrible blooming season due to late repotting and a cold wet winter, so maybe next year. If we can get 8 from it, we will try to raise the bar to 7 or 8 for all of our next generations.


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## firehawk1972 (May 7, 2019)

pluckerup said:


> Intersectional crosses are the first step towards breeding multis with 4-5 flowers and lots of bright vibrant colours. Keep an eye on that breeding, although some could be end of line breeding - sterile.
> Long term, I wonder how much line breeding is going on with sanderianum and anitum. If there was the same type of work done like the Roths, then lookout. Is there any work going on with ploidy conversions that could really make a difference, especially with the big roths.


 That's a great observation about send eriana. That plant has long petals which is obviously spectacular, but if you take away those petals and look at things like the dorsal sepal and general flower size, most Sandy's are kind of doggy-looking


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## Justin (May 7, 2019)

Paph Paradise said:


> I can only claim to be a novice roth breeder since mine are still years from blooming, but here's my take.
> 
> The plants themselves have indeed gotten much larger, especially Orchid Zone breeding. Terry liked big flowers. Flowers are in essence modified leaves so bigger flowers came along with bigger leaves.
> 
> ...



That is really incredible. I grow indoors and most roth seedlings I have grown from flask do two, sometimes three in their first blooming. This is in my poor in-home conditions. And it has been a long road for many of them. 

I own a true division of roth MM, however, that I have owned for many years and it consistently blooms with five flowers, every year. Well, this year only four.


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## emydura (May 8, 2019)

Paph Paradise said:


> I ca
> 
> We have one clone that was awarded with 7 flower on one spike on its first bloom. Looks like 7 again this year but it did seem like it wanted to have 8 on its first bloom. We are having a terrible blooming season due to late repotting and a cold wet winter, so maybe next year. If we can get 8 from it, we will try to raise the bar to 7 or 8 for all of our next generations.



That is incredible. I have not heard of any roths with 7 flowers. Do you have any photos?


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## Paph Paradise (May 8, 2019)

emydura said:


> That is incredible. I have not heard of any roths with 7 flowers. Do you have any photos?


It was awarded with 5 flowers and 2 buds. I didn't take any more photos at that point as I had ruthlessly ripped pouches off. The award description is here: http://csnjc.org/May2017/paphrothschildianum.html


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## firehawk1972 (May 8, 2019)

Paph Paradise said:


> It was awarded with 5 flowers and 2 buds. I didn't take any more photos at that point as I had ruthlessly ripped pouches off. The award description is here: http://csnjc.org/May2017/paphrothschildianum.html


WOWZA that's a real beauty!


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## emydura (May 9, 2019)

Thanks Dave. Great colour as well. A wonderful clone.


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## orchid527 (May 9, 2019)

I agree, that is an incredible plant. I did not know that 7 flowers were possible. I have not bloomed very many, but I only get 3-4 flowers. Mike


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## Justin (May 9, 2019)

My MM with 5 flowers last year. Only 4 this year but petals hit 30 cm.


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## firehawk1972 (May 10, 2019)

Justin said:


> My MM with 5 flowers last year. Only 4 this year but petals hit 30 cm.


Wow, what a stunner!
White cross is it? What does MM stand for


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## Linus_Cello (May 10, 2019)

firehawk1972 said:


> Wow, what a stunner!
> White cross is it? What does MM stand for



I think "Mont Milais" (FCC/RHS)


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## emydura (May 10, 2019)

Just stunning Justin. The flower presentation is just magnificant.




firehawk1972 said:


> Wow, what a stunner!
> White cross is it? What does MM stand for



MM is wild collected from a long time back. It is probably the most important clone behind todays modern bred roths.


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## Justin (May 10, 2019)

Thanks everyone. Yes this is a division of roth 'Mont Millais'


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## Ozpaph (May 10, 2019)

You are a very lucky man. Magnificent.
You can post the image and not just the thumbnail from postimage.org


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## spujr (May 11, 2019)

Justin said:


> My MM with 5 flowers last year. Only 4 this year but petals hit 30 cm.


Any theories about why only 4 flowers this year? Cultural differences or just plant year to year variance?

I used to own the variety 'Charles E' and 'Rex' but gave them to the university. Always enjoyed the plant habit of multi s when growing well.


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## Justin (May 11, 2019)

spujr said:


> Any theories about why only 4 flowers this year? Cultural differences or just plant year to year variance?
> 
> I used to own the variety 'Charles E' and 'Rex' but gave them to the university. Always enjoyed the plant habit of multi s when growing well.



I am certain it is because I cut back on the fertilizer much more this fall and winter. I only bloomed a few roths this year but they all had lower flower count than usual.


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