# Paph.esquirolei'Taka' FCC/AOS



## Ice (Mar 15, 2011)

Paph.esquirolei'Taka' FCC/AOS








thanks


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## NYEric (Mar 15, 2011)

Interesting dorsal. Congrats on the award.


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## Ernie (Mar 15, 2011)

Not sure if FCC is high enough. We gotta invent a higher award.


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## eOrchids (Mar 15, 2011)

Perfection!

The color, the shape and the well defined lines!!! :drool:


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## emydura (Mar 15, 2011)

Amazing. Where do you go from here. It is hard to improve on perfection.

David


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## Tinh (Mar 15, 2011)

emydura said:


> Amazing. Where do you go from here. It is hard to improve on perfection.
> 
> David



Taka is the complexhybrid esquirolei x Birborough. A german seller sold several selected plants under the false name of esquirolei.

Here photo of Paphiopedilum Hans Strahl that are like esquirolei - photo by grex manufacturer







And link to website of seller:

http://www.orchideen-wichmann.de/ozw/shop/artikel/pflanzen/Paphiopedilum/PA0763PG1Paphiopedilumhirsutissimum_Gold_Paph.Bidborough.php

Some close to esquirolei some closer to bidborough.

They like very big esquirolei but they most of them are sterile polyploid.


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## smartie2000 (Mar 15, 2011)

stunning bloom on the FCC! I love the clean lines.

You are not suggesting that this awarded plant is a hybrid, are you Tinh?


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## rdlsreno (Mar 16, 2011)

Excellent! Wow!:clap:

Ramon


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## paphioboy (Mar 16, 2011)

Fantastic bloom!  

IMHO, the pouch shape of the esquirolei and the hybrid are pretty different...


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## Tinh (Mar 16, 2011)

smartie2000 said:


> stunning bloom on the FCC! I love the clean lines.
> 
> You are not suggesting that this awarded plant is a hybrid, are you Tinh?



esquirolei Taka FCC/AOS is indeed a complex hybrid

one more proof for the owner is to count the chromosomes the number is 43



paphioboy said:


> Fantastic bloom!
> 
> IMHO, the pouch shape of the esquirolei and the hybrid are pretty different...



M. Wichmann had over 2000 seedlings of this cross. Picture of 3 is just small sample. He confirms that he sold many in bloom to a german trader and some were like very huge esquirolei.


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## Ernie (Mar 16, 2011)

Hmmm, very interesting. Keep the info coming on this 'Taka'...


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## mormodes (Mar 16, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Hmmm, very interesting. Keep the info coming on this 'Taka'...



There's a 2009 Slippertalk thread on this. One of the 1st results in a google search.


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## Ernie (Mar 16, 2011)

mormodes said:


> There's a 2009 Slippertalk thread on this. One of the 1st results in a google search.



Cool. Interesting because it is also argued that 'Taka' is a wild collected esq and _not _a hybrid, but a triploid.


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## tomkalina (Mar 16, 2011)

Careful examination of the flower of Paph. esquirolei `Taka' FCC/AOS reveals no evidence of any other parent but another esquirolei. Given the fact that most complexes are polyploid, at least to some degree, the influence of a complex parent should be obvious.


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## mormodes (Mar 16, 2011)

These sorts of discussions are frustrating because so many knowledgable people hold such disparate opinions. For me, its enough to know that there's some sort of question about the background of 'Taka'. Doesn't detract from the flower. 

Maybe I should start collecting ignoble orchids and displaying them just for their checkered pasts. Phrag sedenii 'Westonbirt', C loddigessia 'Streeter's Choice', C walkeriana 'Pendentive' and 'Kenny'. Terry Root's spicerianums, Paph esqueroli Taka, hmmm I could come up with quite a nice collection that way...


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## Ernie (Mar 16, 2011)

mormodes said:


> Doesn't detract from the flower.



Cheers to that!


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## Kavanaru (Mar 16, 2011)

mormodes said:


> These sorts of discussions are frustrating because so many knowledgable people hold such disparate opinions. For me, its enough to know that there's some sort of question about the background of 'Taka'. Doesn't detract from the flower.
> 
> Maybe I should start collecting ignoble orchids and displaying them just for their checkered pasts. Phrag sedenii 'Westonbirt', C loddigessia 'Streeter's Choice', C walkeriana 'Pendentive' and 'Kenny'. Terry Root's spicerianums, Paph esqueroli Taka, hmmm I could come up with quite a nice collection that way...



jejeje.. don't forget to add Cattleya mossiae 'Willowbrook' FCC/AOS, Cattleya lueddemaniana 'Stanley' and many others :rollhappy:


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## SlipperFan (Mar 16, 2011)

Well, it's gorgeous!


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## W. Beetus (Mar 16, 2011)

Beautiful! Great shape.


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## valenzino (Mar 17, 2011)

I used to know that "taka"was a original wild plant.
After,a german seller bought the hybrid from Wichmann and sold as divisions of "Taka".
Last year I've seen in Thailand a wild plant similar to "taka"(someway even more interesting colour...petals nearly purple from tip to staminode),
The most famous clone awarded as a species,but in reality a wickmann hybrid,was the GM,best in show at Dijon WOC in France.(I remember to have seen the plants,declared that was hybrid,stimulating laughs around me...  )


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## JeanLux (Mar 17, 2011)

A pic of the Dijon bloom!!! Jean


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## chrismende (Mar 17, 2011)

Whoa! I'm too new to Orchids to know about all this intrigue yet, but it's certainly fascinating!


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## chrismende (Mar 17, 2011)

fascinatinger and fascinatinger! Anyway, I agree with others that these are wonderful flowers, no matter their exact chromosomal makeup.


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## valenzino (Mar 17, 2011)

JeanLux said:


> A pic of the Dijon bloom!!! Jean



Yes,I can recognize the leave of the beautifull Calanthe seiboldii of Franz glanz.Unfortunately from the picture,is difficult to understand the crazy measurements of the flower...nearly doubble size than a normal one.


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## Marc (Mar 17, 2011)

valenzino said:


> Yes,I can recognize the leave of the beautifull Calanthe seiboldii of Franz glanz.Unfortunately from the picture,is difficult to understand the crazy measurements of the flower...nearly doubble size than a normal one.



What would these dimensions be?


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## paphreek (Mar 17, 2011)

mormodes said:


> These sorts of discussions are frustrating because so many knowledgable people hold such disparate opinions. For me, its enough to know that there's some sort of question about the background of 'Taka'. Doesn't detract from the flower.
> 
> Maybe I should start collecting ignoble orchids and displaying them just for their checkered pasts. Phrag sedenii 'Westonbirt', C loddigessia 'Streeter's Choice', C walkeriana 'Pendentive' and 'Kenny'. Terry Root's spicerianums, Paph esqueroli Taka, hmmm I could come up with quite a nice collection that way...



Don't forget Phrag. schlimii 'Wilcox'oke:


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## mormodes (Mar 17, 2011)

paphreek said:


> Don't forget Phrag. schlimii 'Wilcox'oke:



[slaps forehead] Argh! I meant schlimi 'Wilcox' and wrote Sedeni 'Westonbirt'. My bad. Now I'll have to apologize to westonbirts everywhere that I meant no stain on their honor, LOL!!


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## JeanLux (Mar 17, 2011)

valenzino said:


> ....Unfortunately from the picture,is difficult to understand the crazy measurements of the flower...nearly doubble size than a normal one.



You are right: the size was INCREDIBLE; I would guess 22 cm + !? (Quite some time passed since ) Jean


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## biothanasis (Mar 18, 2011)

Impressive!!!!


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## Ernie (Mar 18, 2011)

So I think I got lost somewhere along the way...

The actual plant awarded as 'Taka' was a real, likely polyploid, esq, but someone then made a mass-produced hybrid that looked like a monster esq, so they marketed it as 'Taka'??? It just get this impression because it seems like it's a widespread "clone" (ie different plants/clones of a consistent look-a-like complex hybrid in this case)

Or are we arguing that the awarded 'Taka' itself is an (esq. X complex) hybrid?


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## valenzino (Mar 18, 2011)

Ernie said:


> So I think I got lost somewhere along the way...
> 
> The actual plant awarded as 'Taka' was a real, likely polyploid, esq, but someone then made a mass-produced hybrid that looked like a monster esq, so they marketed it as 'Taka'??? It just get this impression because it seems like it's a widespread "clone" (ie different plants/clones of a consistent look-a-like complex hybrid in this case)
> 
> Or are we arguing that the awarded 'Taka' itself is an (esq. X complex) hybrid?



This is my opinion more or less. "Taka"is not polyployd,is normal dimension,but spectacular shape and colour.

After,a big group of hybrid (esq. X complex),flowered and the ones that were more similar to esquiroley(nearly identical but much bigger)were selected and sold as esquirolei.One of them reached WOC/Dijon and won first price.(Larger than my hand and my hand is big so 22cm or more).In reality I am not 100% shure about it.Maybe also taka is from that group.I remember someone offering division of WOC one,Taka and other very big ones....Same week I received warning about those fake plants so not bought them.But I remember about taka before WOC/Dijon...but maybe I m wrong.Have to check the date of the award of Taka.
Maybe Tinh can expalin us his version and so maybe we can find the truth...maybe in the middle...


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