# Opinions on Nutricote?



## Ernesto (Jul 19, 2022)

I’ve been a die-hard fan of K-Lite since I started growing orchids in 2020, getting consistent growth and flowers over the past few years. However, mixing fertilizer up in a bucket and dunking one plant after another has proven to be a time intensive task— 4 hours on a weekend morning! I grow indoors and can’t speed this up with a pump sprayer (not enough water flow to beat the speed of the bucket method). Watering in the sink with the sink sprayer I can water everyone in an hour or so, but nobody gets fertilized. In an effort to get the best of both worlds I’ve decided to move to Nutricote’s 18-6-8 180 Day formulation, which isn’t quite the K-Lite 12-1-1 formula, but was _as close as I could get to a high N low K formula (_I’ll make up for the lack of Mg and Ca with a monthly dose of Epsom Salts and a top dressing of oyster shell) It’s also supposed to be _less temperature sensitive than Osmocote_, so I can ease my worry about my slow release fertilizer dumping all the nutrients into my pots on a hot day and frying my roots. I’m planning to also dose at _half the recommended amount _since Paphs aren’t heavy feeders. Does this line of thinking track?

tldr; spending too much time watering, moving to Nutricote to save time. Pros: high N low K like K-Lite, more controlled release than Osmocote. Posting to make sure I haven’t missed anything


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## abax (Jul 19, 2022)

I hope Ray chimes in on this post. I've never used a slow release fertilizer and am
curious about details. Sometimes I'd like to give my Spot Shot (and me) a rest.


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## Ray (Jul 20, 2022)

All slow-release fertilizers’ rates of nutrient release rate is dependent upon temperature. I suppose the polymer coating on the Nutricote might have a lower thermal expansion coefficient than that of Osmocote, but I don’t see that as being a particular advantage - to get proper nutrition, one must select the formula + temperature profile + amount that’s appropriate for their conditions.

I have never used slow-release fertilizers on my orchids, because it does not give me the control that water-soluble fertilizers do, I’m not comfortable that it will mix uniformly with most orchid media, and I simply do not have a good grasp on the temperatures in my various pot sizes, colors, and media choices to allow me to be confident of what’s actually being released. Most larger-scale growers I know that do use them do so at no more than half the recommended rate, and continue with solution fertigation.

I did consider doing so after moving to windowsill culture from a greenhouse, but decided to do a “mechanical” workaround instead, by placing my plants in large “boot trays” to collect the drainage and direct it into buckets I could dump as needed. I also bought a battery-powered sprayer to eliminate the pumping.


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## TyroneGenade (Jul 20, 2022)

Ernesto said:


> ...4 hours on a weekend morning! ...


That is about half an hour per day. Why not just space the work out over the week?

I had been using Osmocote and was happy with it and then I started watering once a week with K-lite on Ray's advice (previously I had been spraying daily) and the result has been impressive. A small roth that was doing nothing is suddenly pushing up a new growth. I would much rather spread the work out than go back to slow release or other fertilizer regimens.


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## Ernesto (Jul 20, 2022)

Ray said:


> All slow-release fertilizers’ rates of nutrient release rate is dependent upon temperature. I suppose the polymer coating on the Nutricote might have a lower thermal expansion coefficient than that of Osmocote, but I don’t see that as being a particular advantage - to get proper nutrition, one must select the formula + temperature profile + amount that’s appropriate for their conditions.
> 
> I have never used slow-release fertilizers on my orchids, because it does not give me the control that water-soluble fertilizers do, I’m not comfortable that it will mix uniformly with most orchid media, and I simply do not have a good grasp on the temperatures in my various pot sizes, colors, and media choices to allow me to be confident of what’s actually being released. Most larger-scale growers I know that do use them do so at no more than half the recommended rate, and continue with solution fertigation.
> 
> I did consider doing so after moving to windowsill culture from a greenhouse, but decided to do a “mechanical” workaround instead, by placing my plants in large “boot trays” to collect the drainage and direct it into buckets I could dump as needed. I also bought a battery-powered sprayer to eliminate the pumping.


Thanks for the input, Ray. I agree that the lack of precision with dosing is a cause for concern. I also considered the mechanical workaround, but unfortunately I don’t have the space to install a drainage system in my current setup, and I don’t want to lug anymore buckets around than I currently have to (we have an aquarium in the same room). All that being said, I’d rather underfertilize than overfertilize with Nutricote, so I’m doing my best to manage temps here and also use no more than half the recommended amount. It may not be optimal growth, but something has got to give and my fertigating routine might have to be it.


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## Ernesto (Jul 20, 2022)

TyroneGenade said:


> That is about half an hour per day. Why not just space the work out over the week?
> 
> I had been using Osmocote and was happy with it and then I started watering once a week with K-lite on Ray's advice (previously I had been spraying daily) and the result has been impressive. A small roth that was doing nothing is suddenly pushing up a new growth. I would much rather spread the work out than go back to slow release or other fertilizer regimens.


I attempted to space out watering over several days before, but with my current schedule it’s been really easy to get behind and tracking which groups of plants have/have not been watered has been an extra mental task I don’t want to deal with lol. The routine that has worked for me is having one big watering day on a weekend morning that also serves as some nice quiet alone time with the plants, and giving the seedlings and phrags a second watering halfway thru through the week.

When you switched to K-Lite, was it in combination with Osmocote or K-Lite alone? A big concern of mine is overdoing it with the slow release ferts.


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## TyroneGenade (Jul 21, 2022)

I started using K-lite when I came to the USA and started growing semi-hydropinically. I was living in Iowa with rock-hard well water and it was a total disaster as it was impossible to stop the salt accumulation on the leca. I started misting instead and watering with distilled water and using osmocoat which didn't' work so well either as it turns out. Now in TN I have soft tap water and am again fertilizing with K-lite weakly weekly. I still put some osmocoate in the pots for the heavy feeders but will likely scale this back.

For Paphs I would put the osmocoat along the edge of the pot where the roots are.


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## Ray (Jul 22, 2022)

I think Tyrone has hit and important and usually unconsidered aspect of orchid feeding - “exposure”.

Terrestrial plants tend to have root systems that are fine and “hairy”, extending throughout the container of medium. Orchids, on the other hand, have root systems that are very narrowly “channeled”, so nutrient solutions must be in close proximity to them in order to be absorbed. Repot a plant up against the side of a pot and water the opposite and it gets nothing.

Then there’s the “time of exposure” aspect. A bare-root vanda’s exposure is only when the roots are hit with fertilizer solution. On the other end of the spectrum is a plant In hydroponics, whose roots are constantly exposed to sold and can absorb them.

This all means, of course, that “feeding” is not only related to concentration and frequency of application, but extent of the root system and the ability of the potting medium to deliver it to where the roots are…


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## Russ1992 (Sep 16, 2022)

Does


Ernesto said:


> Thanks for the input, Ray. I agree that the lack of precision with dosing is a cause for concern. I also considered the mechanical workaround, but unfortunately I don’t have the space to install a drainage system in my current setup, and I don’t want to lug anymore buckets around than I currently have to (we have an aquarium in the same room). All that being said, I’d rather underfertilize than overfertilize with Nutricote, so I’m doing my best to manage temps here and also use no more than half the recommended amount. It may not be optimal growth, but something has got to give and my fertigating routine might have to be it.


Ernesto maybe test out a few lower valued plants with just slow release, then another set with both slow release and fluid, and finally the rest of the collection can be your usual treatment. 

Also since you have an aquarium you might want to use the fish deposit water to help fertilize as another experiment. It seems some big commercial nurseries have done this in the past.


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## Russ1992 (Sep 16, 2022)

Also @Ray do you know what Sam Tsui is using for his slow release? All recent plants I have gotten from him have had these granules in the pots.


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## Ray (Sep 16, 2022)

Russ1992 said:


> Also @Ray do you know what Sam Tsui is using for his slow release? All recent plants I have gotten from him have had these granules in the pots.


Sorry. I have no idea.


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## Russ1992 (Sep 16, 2022)

Ray said:


> Sorry. I have no idea.


No worries at all. Was curious as his most recent crop I received have the been the largest paphs I've ever gotten in 2in pots from any nursery. They are doing really well.


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## abax (Sep 16, 2022)

Russ1992 call Sam and ask him what and how he's fertilizing. He's a very nice man and will answer any
questions he can.


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## Ray (Sep 17, 2022)

I don’t know if it’s still the case, but when I used to visit EFG orchids in Deland FL, they were contract growing a large stock of Sam’s plants.


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## Russ1992 (Sep 19, 2022)

Thanks @abax will try Sam but sometimes he answers my questions and other times he ignores them. I think I might of annoyed him asking too many culture questions.  I know he's retiring soon too so I'm sure he's been busy.


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## Russ1992 (Sep 19, 2022)

Ray said:


> I don’t know if it’s still the case, but when I used to visit EFG orchids in Deland FL, they were contract growing a large stock of Sam’s plants.


Cool will check out this lead thanks! 

- Russ


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## Russ1992 (Nov 1, 2022)

Ray said:


> I don’t know if it’s still the case, but when I used to visit EFG orchids in Deland FL, they were contract growing a large stock of Sam’s plants.


Unfortunately Sam isn't getting back to me at all even if it's relating to new orders. I called with no answer I hope he's ok.

So finally followed up with these folks and talked to George seems like a great guy.

In short they no longer contract out Sam's plants and George doesn't know what he used for the slow release.


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## Russ1992 (Nov 1, 2022)

It looks like EFG really grows incredible plants. So I asked a lot of culture questions. 
His responses for Paphs:

• Fertilizer: Peter's 20-10-20 at 200 to 400 ppm twice a week. Flush ever 4th watering.
• Fungal infections: Zerotol active ingredient Hydrogen Peroxide at a higher dosage than over the counter. (says it works on Rhizoctonia and Fusarium)
• PH needs to be 5.6 - 6.6 for absorption


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## Ray (Nov 2, 2022)

One important correction here: zero-tol, when applied, has a MUCH LOWER concentration of hydrogen peroxide than does the drugstore stuff; if I remember correctly, it’s on the order of 0.3%, rather than 3%.


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## bjw86 (Nov 2, 2022)

Russ1992 said:


> Does
> 
> Ernesto maybe test out a few lower valued plants with just slow release, then another set with both slow release and fluid, and finally the rest of the collection can be your usual treatment.
> 
> Also since you have an aquarium you might want to use the fish deposit water to help fertilize as another experiment. It seems some big commercial nurseries have done this in the past.


Wouldn't snails be a possible cause for alarm? I have never had a planted aquarium that didn't have a few hitchhikers in it.


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## Stone (Nov 15, 2022)

I use nutricote 15.8 - 3.9 - 7.8 on everything. (yes everything) It's probably all that is required but I do give the occasional liquid feed with either organic or hydroponic to some plants. Both liquids high K. I prefer the K to be around the same as the N. For a medium sized plant in a medium sized pot (say 4-5 inch), top dress at about 10-15 pills/pot and you're done. I have brought paphs (like bellatulum) ex flask to flowering size in 2-3 years in 20 -30C with this practice. I find using a fine bark to top up the potting helps with keeping the nutricote on top of the the mix rather than falling down through it were it will be less efficient.
''Pros: high N low K like K-Lite'' ..... Low K is not a ''pro''. I would have though this silly notion would have died by now.  It's utter nonsense and the sooner you get it out of your mind the happier you will be!


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## Ray (Nov 15, 2022)

@Stone, my plants have been getting K-Lite for over a decade now, and they haven’t figured out how silly that notion is and keep merrily growing and blooming, so I’m not telling them any different.

I see no need to relitigate this case, but there is a lot of scientific info available that shows that plants really don’t need a lot of potassium, recycle it well, with orchids being particularly undemanding of it. Whether that is a physiological difference or just because they’re slow growers, I have no idea.

Potassium is not a chemical component of the structure of a plants, apparently acting as a role in catalysts and transfer phases, so it makes sense that it would be highly relocatable and recycled, keeping the demand low.


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## Russ1992 (Nov 15, 2022)

Thanks for the input all! Either low K or high K. Liquid feed or just Nutricote. I will experiment with all variables eventually and report back my findings. 

Finding out how to grow better orchids is just as interesting as the plants themselves. Even with seemingly similar conditions people will use, and swear by, wildly different techniques in culture, and the plants look incredible regardless. It's all a mystery.


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## Russ1992 (Nov 21, 2022)

bjw86 said:


> Wouldn't snails be a possible cause for alarm? I have never had a planted aquarium that didn't have a few hitchhikers in it.


That's a great point! I haven't done this myself but have just heard of it's benefits.


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## Russ1992 (Nov 21, 2022)

Ray said:


> One important correction here: zero-tol, when applied, has a MUCH LOWER concentration of hydrogen peroxide than does the drugstore stuff; if I remember correctly, it’s on the order of 0.3%, rather than 3%.


Ray I'm seeing it at 5% man.


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## eds (Nov 22, 2022)

Aquatic snails (of the types that are inadvertently introduced to aquarium) are aquatic and will not survive long term unless you have permanent pools of water in your growing space. The most common two are small Ramshorn snails or Malaysian trumpet snails. Neither will cause an issue for your orchid. 

I wouldn't be dumping lots of them or silt and debris from the tank onto your orchids though as all that fine organic matter could clog up your media and decay.


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## Ray (Nov 22, 2022)

Russ1992 said:


> Ray I'm seeing it at 5% man.


Russ, what product is that? That company has put out many products with the same general name, and identical products with different names, intended for different market segments, some to be used straight, others to be diluted before application.

The Zero-tol material I have, for example, is 25% peroxide and intended to be diluted 1:85, making the applied solution 0.3%.


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## Russ1992 (Nov 22, 2022)

Oh jeez you're totally right Ray! It's called Zerotol HC. Undiluted it's 5.34% Hydrogen Peroxide and 1.36% Peroxyacetic acid. It asks to be diluted to 1:150. 

Oh dear that seems so weak. How can this possibly be better than over the counter 3% Hydrogen peroxide?


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## Ray (Nov 22, 2022)

Russ1992 said:


> Oh jeez you're totally right Ray! It's called Zerotol HC. Undiluted it's 5.34% Hydrogen Peroxide and 1.36% Peroxyacetic acid. It asks to be diluted to 1:150.
> 
> Oh dear that seems so weak. How can this possibly be better than over the counter 3% Hydrogen peroxide?


It works because the peroxide decomposition happens (almost) molecule by molecule, continuing until it is dry. The energy released is sufficient to break down the cell walls of pathogens.

In drugstore peroxide, once a single molecule starts to decompose, it triggers a cascading reaction, releasing many magnitudes more energy almost instantly, even among molecules that are not in contact with the pathogens, so it an miss some, and worse, it is damaging to the sub-microscopic root hairs that are responsible for water and nutrient uptake.


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## Russ1992 (Nov 22, 2022)

Ray said:


> It works because the peroxide decomposition happens (almost) molecule by molecule, continuing until it is dry. The energy released is sufficient to break down the cell walls of pathogens.
> 
> In drugstore peroxide, once a single molecule starts to decompose, it triggers a cascading reaction, releasing many magnitudes more energy almost instantly, even among molecules that are not in contact with the pathogens, so it an miss some, and worse, it is damaging to the sub-microscopic root hairs that are responsible for water and nutrient uptake.


Honestly Ray where would we all be without you? Thank you for your insights. Will be testing it out against Physan.


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## Ray (Nov 23, 2022)

I switched from Physan to Zero-Tol because - despite advertising saying otherwise - some plants are negatively affected by Physan, which is my opinion is best used as a disinfectant for the greenhouse structure and benches than for treating plants.


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## Russ1992 (Nov 23, 2022)

Ray said:


> I switched from Physan to Zero-Tol because - despite advertising saying otherwise - some plants are negatively affected by Physan, which is my opinion is best used as a disinfectant for the greenhouse structure and benches than for treating plants.


Yes from my experience this is true. I have burned plants in the past using Physan. The EFG nursery owner told me the same thing which is why he prefers Zerotol. 

Plus Physan states it will cause blindness if it gets in the eyes. I told this to Norman Fang at orchids.com his response was, "Oh they all say that! Peroxide is worse." 

Once again 30,000+ orchid species and 300,000,000 opinions on how to grow them. 

Will stick with Zerotol HC 5% peroxide undiluted. I have noticed others here on ST using Zerotol 2.0 which is 27% peroxide undiluted. If you go to the company's website they explicitly state that HC was made for hobbyists. Some of these diseases may be too strong for that product at the recommended dilution. Will report back findings using it less diluted on some problem plants.


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## Ray (Nov 24, 2022)

As a general comment, I no longer use such products at all after coming to a stark reality about my culture - that I was “pushing” it too much by growing too many plants requiring different conditions, in close proximity with each other, so wasn’t really doing a good-enough job at it. That conclusion forced better discipline.

By “thinning the herd” to plants more closely aligned culturally and providing more space, which allowed my to do a better job of meeting the needs of the plants and keep up better with the housekeeping, the need for disinfecting has shrunk. I’m sure my regular use of probiotics has also helped, but I saw improvement prior to that.


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## Russ1992 (Nov 29, 2022)

Ray said:


> As a general comment, I no longer use such products at all after coming to a stark reality about my culture - that I was “pushing” it too much by growing too many plants requiring different conditions, in close proximity with each other, so wasn’t really doing a good-enough job at it. That conclusion forced better discipline.
> 
> By “thinning the herd” to plants more closely aligned culturally and providing more space, which allowed my to do a better job of meeting the needs of the plants and keep up better with the housekeeping, the need for disinfecting has shrunk. I’m sure my regular use of probiotics has also helped, but I saw improvement prior to that.


Yes thinning the herd makes all the sense in the world. Quality over quantity.


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## Just1more (Nov 30, 2022)

I’ve done. Quick search for zero tolerance and only finding it for sale in 1 gal. containers. Is anyone buying it in a smaller size, if so where have you found it?


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## Russ1992 (Dec 7, 2022)

Just1more said:


> I’ve done. Quick search for zero tolerance and only finding it for sale in 1 gal. containers. Is anyone buying it in a smaller size, if so where have you found it?


Unfortunately I have never found it any smaller myself.


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