# Protocol when someone sells you an original awarded plant



## Tom Reddick (Jun 14, 2019)

I was about to purchase an original plant that was recently awarded by the AOS and the seller wants to give me scans of the original certificate rather than the original itself. Also I would not be getting the award tag for the plant. 

Seller is an established breeder of exceptional reputation - no worries there. But am I wrong to expect the original certificate?


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Jun 14, 2019)

I do not think that you are wrong in expecting to get the original certificate. After all, what would the seller need it for? I'm sure you already checked this out but thought I would mention it anyways. Has the award been paid for? There are some people that get things awarded and never pay the AOS so the award doesn't stand. I can also think of one seller that doesn't pay for each award as it is given but rather waits until they have received a number of them and then pays up.


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## Tom Reddick (Jun 14, 2019)

Thank you Bob. Award was paid for and all. I did find out today that the laminated tag had been provided as well, but was just not affixed to the plant. In the Judging world, quality awards go to the plant and cultural awards (aside from ADs) go to the grower. And so if I can have the laminated tag and pdfs of the rest I am fine. I do not think that is too much to ask. We shall see...


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## valenzino (Jun 15, 2019)

is the whole 'plant or a division?if its a division the oriiginal award stays with the mother plant...to let others in future purchase other divisions and get a scan of the original award/photo of division with original award....


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## Tom Reddick (Jun 18, 2019)

Whole original mother plant. Arrived today with tag and all is well.


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## littlefrog (Jun 19, 2019)

Not sure I even have the paperwork for most of my awards... Maybe in a pile somewhere. Certainly not the award forms. I just look all that up on the AOS website when I need the information.


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## Phred (Jun 20, 2019)

Lol... I have dozens of AOS awarded Paph divisions I’ve bought for breeding over the years and I’ve never received award paperwork. It never even occurred to me. For an AOS award the certificate is given to the exhibitor and his name is on it as such. That is the case whether it’s a flower quality award or a cultural award so either way I would assume the award belongs to the exhibitor. A copy would be nice though.


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## Ozpaph (Jun 21, 2019)

I would never have expected the ward certificate unless that was a pre-specified part of the deal.


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## tnyr5 (Jun 23, 2019)

I talked this over with a friend who is an AOS judge before posting.
I have sent along the original paperwork with awarded plants only when they are going to good friends. After all, there's a bit of nostalgia and pride involved.

Regardless of the fact that the award goes to the plant itself, I took the plant in and got it awarded & my name's on the certificate. The credentials of the award belong to the plant, but the certificate itself is sort of like a congratulatory ribbon to hang on the wall, and it belongs to the grower. It would, to my feelings, be the same as someone demanding all the blue ribbons the plant has ever won at shows, as well. A copy is sufficient to prove the plant's pedigree.

My friend: "Think of it this way... If I had a race car, and I won lots and lots of trophies with that race car, then I decided to sell the race car, it would be unreasonable to expect to get the trophies as well."


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## Tom Reddick (Jun 24, 2019)

Thanks everyone. At the end of the day, I got the plastic plant tag- which was what I most wanted all along- and it turned out was mine all the time. There was some confusion in what each of us was calling the paperwork. The certificate would have been nice, but a copy is fine for me.

Glad I posted the question. This is a perfect example of a situation where I had no idea what was considered normal and was making guesses. I was surprised to see so many varying opinions- but you all make good sense.

Now I just need to keep the thing alive


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## ehanes7612 (Jun 24, 2019)

I have never heard of a buyer of an awarded plant receiving the original certificate. Cant imagine anyone wanting a certificate with someone else's name on it...but hey, I have seen some crazy stuff being sold in Ebay


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## Linus_Cello (Jun 24, 2019)

ehanes7612 said:


> ..but hey, I have seen some crazy stuff being sold in Ebay


My favorite is the championship winning air guitar


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## Tom Reddick (Jun 25, 2019)

ehanes7612 said:


> I have never heard of a buyer of an awarded plant receiving the original certificate. Cant imagine anyone wanting a certificate with someone else's name on it...but hey, I have seen some crazy stuff being sold in Ebay



As noted above- the original plastic tag that gets affixed to the plant was what I really wanted in terms of originals, and got that and so all is well. But I was curious if it was customary for the other documentation to come along (in original form) with regards to quality awards since they are technically to the plant. 

To give some backstory here since things might have changed since I was last dealing in plants at this level- back in the 90s in high school when I was repping for Carmela at shows and growing on my own, I was giving serious consideration to making orchids a side living right after college- a step which I ended up deferring until now.

At that time, and in the years preceding, mericloning was really getting widespread and much of the public was not yet aware of the perils of overdoing it and having resultant populations that bore little resemblance to original plants. And so Phalaenopsis stem props continued to sell for quite a premium (I was growing Phals at the time and the plant I refer to in this post is a Phalaenopsis).

While I would not say it was common, it was not infrequent for some commercial growers to stem prop mericlones, and then sell the stem props at the going rates for stem props from original plants- without disclosing that they were propping mericlones. Some admitted it privately, and sometimes it was obvious when the plants flowered.

In any event, I have commercial purposes in mind for this plant- ergo my desire to have as much documentation as possible that I do in fact own the original plant. It could matter at some point when and if people ask.


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