# Greenhouse construction restarts



## paphreek (May 29, 2010)

With the delay in construction, I thought I'd start a fresh thread to continue the process. For anyone who has not been following things, you can catch up by checking out the first thread: http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16251 

My contractor was finished with his other job and back on site on Wednesday. A few days prior, the polycarbonate arrived in this crate. Total weight: 1300 lbs. or approx. 590 kilos.







The polycarbonate started being cut and attached on Thursday and Friday. On Friday morning, I discovered that we had received the wrong size aluminum screws for the cap of the cap and base system which joins the polycarbonate sheets.I contacted Sundance Supplies immediately and they are sending the correct size. Hopefully they will arrive on Tuesday. Because of the busy holiday schedule at work, I was not able to take pictures until this evening. 











Here's the doorway. Note the special barrier put up. Our cat, Trouble, had earlier "discovered" the pea gravel floor and decided that this was his new 768 square foot litter box!





Here's a closeup of a cross section of the 25mm triple wall polycabonate.


----------



## SlipperFan (May 29, 2010)

Naught kitty!

It's looking great, Ross!


----------



## NYEric (May 30, 2010)

Wow, triple wall looks really insulating.


----------



## paphreek (May 30, 2010)

NYEric said:


> Wow, triple wall looks really insulating.



25mm Triple Wall R Factor = 3.0 

I would have chosen the 25mm six wall with an even greater R factor of 3.7 for the same price. The one thing that stopped me was light transmission. The six wall clear transmits only 44% of the light, which would normally be great for an orchid greenhouse, but I also have to deal with partial shading on the site, especially in the winter. It still might have worked, but I didn't want to chance having too little light. It's easier and cheaper to reduce light with shade cloth than to increase light with HPS lamps.


----------



## John Boy (May 30, 2010)

Ross,
if my cat is anything to go by, your barrier is nothing but a little insult or challenge on your cats next way to "the bathroom"!

Great pictures otherwise.


----------



## paphreek (May 30, 2010)

John Boy said:


> Ross,
> if my cat is anything to go by, your barrier is nothing but a little insult or challenge on your cats next way to "the bathroom"!
> 
> Great pictures otherwise.



Trouble is about 14 years old and not quite as spry as he used to be. There are plenty of other good spots along the woods edge for him to use. All we had to do was make it less convenient and he got the hint.


----------



## Heather (May 30, 2010)

Looking pretty darn great, Ross!


----------



## John M (May 30, 2010)

Looking super nice! I'm envious of your polycarbonate. My greenhouse is an inflated double poly....always a huge worry when there's wind, especially if there's a power cut! Although, it is extremely energy efficient. But, it's a pain sometimes when I have to cancel plans and stay home just in case windy weather causes problems.


----------



## paphreek (May 30, 2010)

John M said:


> Looking super nice! I'm envious of your polycarbonate. My greenhouse is an inflated double poly....always a huge worry when there's wind, especially if there's a power cut! Although, it is extremely energy efficient. But, it's a pain sometimes when I have to cancel plans and stay home just in case windy weather causes problems.



If I had a more open site to use, I would have considered a double poly set up and had a greenhouse going at least two or three years ago. I've invested in a small power generator to keep fans running for the propane back up heater in the winter and the exhaust fans in the summer.


----------



## Clark (May 31, 2010)

Very nice.


----------



## John M (May 31, 2010)

paphreek said:


> If I had a more open site to use, I would have considered a double poly set up and had a greenhouse going at least two or three years ago. I've invested in a small power generator to keep fans running for the propane back up heater in the winter and the exhaust fans in the summer.



I went with the double poly because I could build a bigger greenhouse for the same money. At the time, I also bought and installed an automatic standby generator ($4,000.00!), to keep the fans and heaters running during a power cut......even when I wasn't there. However, it was a second hand generator and as it turns out, it's a bit of a white elephant. It's not in working order more often than it is in working order. Because of it's difficult "personality", I get no comfort or peace of mind by having it. I never know when it's going to break down next and NOT come on when there's a power cut. I REALLY need a new generator; but, that's just in my dreams right now.


----------



## KyushuCalanthe (May 31, 2010)

That's some kinda litter box!


----------



## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Jun 1, 2010)

John I don't know about your stand by generator, but on mine it tests it's self once a week and runs for 5 minutes. You can set that at any time of day or night. So, we set it when we are sure we will be home. It is nice to know your generator will run when it is suppose to. They are indeed expensive but worth every penny. Originally, we went with a stand alone gas generator that you had to start yourself. This way we no longer have to worry about it. The generator runs not only the fans the vents and the heat but also runs our house with a few exceptions. The size we bought won't do the dryer or the house airconditoning but other than that and a light here and there we keep warm all winter. It was great when it came on last year when we had an ice storm and lost all power. I know one can't do everything at once. We had to wait also but I'm now happy with it. I friend of mine who had a gas stand alone generator couldn't get it started when the power went off. He lost almost everything int he greenhouse.


----------



## John M (Jun 1, 2010)

Bob, I'm really sorry about your friend's loss. A disaster like that is financially and emotionally devastating. You're right. A good, reliable auto standby generator is worth every penny.....but, you have to have enough pennies! I was unlucky when I got this second-hand one and now, I just can't afford another one. I do have a manual start generator; but, I need to be here to put it on of course. Unfortunately, I happen to live in an area that seems to have a poor electricity grid. I experience power interuptions way too frequently; so, it's a constant worry right now. I envy people I know in neighbouring regions that haven't had a power interuption in years!


----------



## paphreek (Jun 3, 2010)

Putting up the polycarbonate has been delayed for the past few days as we waited for the proper sized screws to be sent for the cap. The original order sent 1/2 inch aluminum screws and with our 25mm (1 inch) polycarb, we needed 1 1/2 inch screws to seal down the cap. In the mean time, Kenny and Ed started some other work on the foundation.


----------



## NYEric (Jun 3, 2010)

Looking good.


----------



## paphreek (Jun 3, 2010)

The correct screws for the caps arrived today and Kenny and Ed went right to work on the roof. Unfortunately we may be short on the foam padding for the channels on the base. More has already been ordered. Hopefully it won't delay work.

Starting one side of roof.





End of day Note: Caps on channels between sheets of polycarb.


----------



## eOrchids (Jun 4, 2010)

Loving the progress!!!

Sorry to hear about the delays!


----------



## baodai (Jun 4, 2010)

Ross, 
It seems there is a gap between top wall and the roof, what are you filling this gap with ?
Thanks,
BD


----------



## etex (Jun 4, 2010)

The greenhouse is coming along great!! Looks like it will be really big!


----------



## paphreek (Jun 4, 2010)

The polycarbonate on the side wall extends right up to the underside of the polycarbonate sheet on the roof. The small gap between the two sheets will be sealed with caulking.


----------



## John M (Jun 4, 2010)

God! That's beautiful! My inflated, double poly greenhouse looks like the Hindenburg is parked in my back yard!


----------



## goldenrose (Jun 4, 2010)

Ross you got me started, my GH is 15 yrs.old & we've been pricing materials. My current is 7.5' x 12.5', space would allow for me to go to 12' x 20', this will be a DIY project as my husband welds, (he's a custom cabinet maker by trade), has a brother that's a general contractor & a very good friend that's a brick layer. I can't wait - our question has been the use of wood, looks to be treated, but in a GH environment? What will the half walls be covered with?


----------



## paphreek (Jun 4, 2010)

goldenrose said:


> Ross you got me started, my GH is 15 yrs.old & we've been pricing materials. My current is 7.5' x 12.5', space would allow for me to go to 12' x 20', this will be a DIY project as my husband welds, (he's a custom cabinet maker by trade), has a brother that's a general contractor & a very good friend that's a brick layer. I can't wait - our question has been the use of wood, looks to be treated, but in a GH environment? What will the half walls be covered with?



All the wood is treated lumber. The studs are 2x6 and the walls inside and out are made from the same treated plywood used for basement exterior walls. The space between the walls will be filled with foam insulation. The new treated lumber, ACQ, does not contain arsenic like the old treated lumber. While I'd like to get into the greenhouse right away, I'm considering coating with a preservative, letting the wood dry for a few weeks, and then possibly staining. It'll be easier to do now before the plants come in.


----------



## L I Jane (Jun 4, 2010)

Nice Ross! Obviously your cat understands.You said you used pea gravel so what do you think the cat thought when he saw it :rollhappy:


----------



## alexta6 (Jun 4, 2010)

the cat part is funny. haha


----------



## paphreek (Jun 7, 2010)

Today, dirt was back filled around the structure, and the exhaust fans were installed. The only other work scheduled for the week is insulating the walls. It's getting hard to stay patient.


----------



## JeanLux (Jun 8, 2010)

A Great House, But all the work that can be done as long as it is empty is 'easy' work !!!! 
(mine yearly great cleaning of my gh is to be done ,as well as some electric work ) Jean


----------



## goldenrose (Jun 8, 2010)

:clap: EXCITING!!!


----------



## eOrchids (Jun 8, 2010)

It's almost like waiting for a Paph to bloom!


----------



## NYEric (Jun 8, 2010)

Why be patient?! Start filling that puppy!


----------



## John M (Jun 8, 2010)

'Looks awesome! I love it! I want one just like it!

Eric - your enthusiasm knows no bounds; but, finishing the work while empty *IS* the better way! Being able to work unimpeded by plants and their needs makes the work go so much faster.


----------



## NYEric (Jun 8, 2010)

I just have no patience!


----------



## goldenrose (Jun 8, 2010)

NYEric said:


> Why be patient?! Start filling that puppy!


:clap::clap: :rollhappy: Ross will have no problem with that! .....nor would I!


----------



## tenman (Jun 8, 2010)

OK, went back and read both threads. Let me say first how lucky you are not to have to build this to code. The poured footer and block foundation were half the time and money here. I am unclear about the '25mm' triple-wall; it looks much wider than that. Is that measurement correct? I used triple-wall also and every winter when I get my gas bill am glad I did that and insulated the outside of the foundation (unheard of here) with 1"styro and made it an attached GH. I do however have a friend here who has the under-floor heating and his is in sand also topped by paving brick. When we took a visiting speaker for a tour of local greenhouses three years ago in the dead of a very cold winter, I was so happy when we walked into his - my feet were warm for the first time all day! What is the reason for the solid wall half-way up the sides? I'm curious as I have floor-level benches also and it seems you are limiting you light and ability to later add lower-lever benching. Trust me, within a year the GH will be too small and you'll be looking for more space!

Another thought: aren't you worried about vermin such as rats, snakes, moles, etc, tunneling into the GH w/o a concrete or block foundation?


----------



## NYEric (Jun 8, 2010)

tenman said:


> Trust me, within a year the GH will be too small and you'll be looking for more space!


Shhhhhh! Let's keep that our little secret! Bahhahhahhahahaa! :evil:


----------



## KyushuCalanthe (Jun 8, 2010)

I can imagine your impatience to get that puppy filled! Looking sweet. :clap:


----------



## SlipperFan (Jun 8, 2010)

It looks fabulous! :smitten:


----------



## paphreek (Jun 9, 2010)

tenman said:


> OK, went back and read both threads. Let me say first how lucky you are not to have to build this to code. The poured footer and block foundation were half the time and money here. I am unclear about the '25mm' triple-wall; it looks much wider than that. Is that measurement correct? I used triple-wall also and every winter when I get my gas bill am glad I did that and insulated the outside of the foundation (unheard of here) with 1"styro and made it an attached GH. I do however have a friend here who has the under-floor heating and his is in sand also topped by paving brick. When we took a visiting speaker for a tour of local greenhouses three years ago in the dead of a very cold winter, I was so happy when we walked into his - my feet were warm for the first time all day! What is the reason for the solid wall half-way up the sides? I'm curious as I have floor-level benches also and it seems you are limiting you light and ability to later add lower-lever benching. Trust me, within a year the GH will be too small and you'll be looking for more space!
> 
> Another thought: aren't you worried about vermin such as rats, snakes, moles, etc, tunneling into the GH w/o a concrete or block foundation?




All good points, Tennis.

The solid wall allows me to add more insulation (R 20+) in those areas at least. In hind sight, a three foot wall might have been better. The triple wall is 25mm (1 inch). I have small fingers. As for vermin, we'll have to wait and see and deal with it as it happens.


----------



## Shiva (Jun 9, 2010)

It'a magnificient greenhouse. You gave a lot of thought to it and it pays off. I haven't read all the threads but what is your ultimate objective with this greenhouse ?


----------



## paphreek (Jun 9, 2010)

Shiva said:


> It'a magnificient greenhouse. You gave a lot of thought to it and it pays off. I haven't read all the threads but what is your ultimate objective with this greenhouse ?



My ultimate objective is to get the greenhouse in shape to grow mainly Paphs, so I can continue hybridizing compact and miniature Paphs. As I become accustomed to the conditions in the greenhouse, I will probably find opportunities to grow orchids I couldn't in the house. For instance, Julie loves mounted orchids and now we will have the entire north wall to experiment with mounted plants.


----------



## paphreek (Jun 9, 2010)

Got home from work, today to see that wall insulation was done.


----------



## tenman (Jun 10, 2010)

I see foam. I assume the full-height insulated wall is the north wall. Is this foam a special type which doesn't degrade in sunlight as many do?


----------



## paphreek (Jun 10, 2010)

tenman said:


> I see foam. I assume the full-height insulated wall is the north wall. Is this foam a special type which doesn't degrade in sunlight as many do?



Yes, the full height wall is the north wall. The insulation will be enclosed with an interior wall, so it will not be exposed to the sun. We are planning on using the north wall for mounted plants.


----------



## Mrs. Paph (Jun 10, 2010)

I Really try to save my time & money for Paphs too, but I seem to have a quickly growing group of mounted plants (obviously not Paphs) that are getting by impressively well for being indoors (out in summer if they like heat), but I know I'd have more opportunities for that in a GH! Can't wait to see your Paphs get settled into the GH, and your north wall come alive too!


----------



## Roy (Jun 11, 2010)

Ross, a magnificent growing area but are you going to be able to afford the plants to fill it up now ?? heheheheh


----------



## paphreek (Jun 11, 2010)

Roy said:


> Ross, a magnificent growing area but are you going to be able to afford the plants to fill it up now ?? heheheheh



My biggest concern was being able to afford heating it when temps drop to -20F. Once I move my plants out there, the benches will be at least half full already, with many of the plants being seedlings.


----------



## Roy (Jun 11, 2010)

Is the name of your new set up called....... Arctic Orchids ?????


----------



## Ray (Jun 12, 2010)

For those of us in northern climes, heating cost is always an issue. I use propane, and upgraded to a separated-combustion heater several years ago, and it cut 40% of the cost of the standard Modine heater it replaced. By drawing outside air for combustion (through a flue that is inside of the exhaust flue, preheating the air), it doesn't draw the already heated and humidified air out.

I am considering doing something I read in the AOS Bulletin many moons ago: Some guy had a trench dug in his yard that was a couple of feet below the frost line, and at a depth where the soil temperature was more-or-less constant year round. Into that he place large clay sewer pipe, with one end in the GH, the other reaching the surface. With the right combination of diameter and length of the pipe, the air - drawn into the GH by a fan - was always roughly 65°. Certainly warm enough for winter, while having a cooling effect for the summer.

I also recall that the clay absorbed the condensed summer humidity and passed it to the soil in summer, and drew it from the soil and added it to the cold, dry incoming air in winter, so it sounds pretty sweet.


----------



## Kavanaru (Jun 12, 2010)

Ray said:


> For those of us in northern climes, heating cost is always an issue. I use propane, and upgraded to a separated-combustion heater several years ago, and it cut 40% of the cost of the standard Modine heater it replaced. By drawing outside air for combustion (through a flue that is inside of the exhaust flue, preheating the air), it doesn't draw the already heated and humidified air out.
> 
> I am considering doing something I read in the AOS Bulletin many moons ago: Some guy had a trench dug in his yard that was a couple of feet below the frost line, and at a depth where the soil temperature was more-or-less constant year round. Into that he place large clay sewer pipe, with one end in the GH, the other reaching the surface. With the right combination of diameter and length of the pipe, the air - drawn into the GH by a fan - was always roughly 65°. Certainly warm enough for winter, while having a cooling effect for the summer.
> 
> I also recall that the clay absorbed the condensed summer humidity and passed it to the soil in summer, and drew it from the soil and added it to the cold, dry incoming air in winter, so it sounds pretty sweet.



sounds interesting... this is more or less the same principle used for geothermal pumps (becoming quite trendy in europe to heat houses in winter and cool them down in summer).

however, I am not sure whether I have undertoos correctly what you have explained, Ray. Please correct me if I am wrong here, but from what you have written I have understood that one of the ends of the pipe its open to the environment outside of the greenhouse, and the air is pulled through it into de ground and then into the greenhouse (other end of the pipe). Is this right? Did the guy in teh AOS explained how long and how deep under the ground the pipe were? and how cold it was outside in winter where his GH was located?


----------



## Candace (Jun 12, 2010)

Looking good, Ross.


----------



## paphreek (Jun 18, 2010)

*Work progresses*

Here's a bit of what has happened this week.

New main electrical box





Cement pad for LP gas back up generator





North wall with circuit breakers. I wasn't wild about the conduuit being so low, but it was installed while I was gone. I have been assured that it is well sealed and impervious to water. I not totally convinced.





Overhead florescent work lights. Note: temporary hook up for exhaust fans which are 20" fans, each capable of moving 4000 cubic feet of air per minute. With an air volume of about 7600 cu.ft., the two fans should theoretically turn over the air in one minute. The intake vents have finally arrived, so we won't have to leave the door open for fresh air in take once they are install next week.


----------



## NYEric (Jun 19, 2010)

Plants!


----------



## SlipperFan (Jun 19, 2010)

Looks like it will be a hard-working greenhouse!


----------



## paphreek (Jun 19, 2010)

NYEric said:


> Plants!



Won't be in until I'm satisfied with light levels, temperature control, benches, and I have watering set up ready.


----------



## NYEric (Jun 21, 2010)

Consider me the 5 y.o. nephew. 
No plants!?


----------



## paphreek (Jun 21, 2010)

NYEric said:


> Consider me the 5 y.o. nephew.
> No plants!?



:rollhappy::rollhappy::rollhappy: I'm getting [email protected] impatient, myself. Will be experimenting with the shade cloth and setting up water while I wait for benches to be installed on the week after the 4th of July (I hope).


----------



## Jim Toomey (Jun 21, 2010)

I've been using aluminet and it really does the job in diffusing the light and keeps it cool in the summer and warmer in the winter.

You may be able to get remnants to fit at a cheaper price...

With your clear glazing you may want to try:

Aluminet 50% on the outside and grey 50% aluminet inside.

Check out polysack:
Grey: http://www.polysack.com/index.php?page_id=201

Aluminet:
http://www.polysack.com/index.php?page_id=76

Best of luck,
Jim T


----------



## paphreek (Jun 21, 2010)

Jim Toomey said:


> I've been using aluminet and it really does the job in diffusing the light and keeps it cool in the summer and warmer in the winter.
> 
> You may be able to get remnants to fit at a cheaper price...
> 
> ...



Thanks, Jim!


----------



## KyushuCalanthe (Jun 21, 2010)

paphreek said:


> :rollhappy::rollhappy::rollhappy: I'm getting [email protected] impatient, myself. Will be experimenting with the shade cloth and setting up water while I wait for benches to be installed on the week after the 4th of July (I hope).



Patience Grasshopper!  Sounds like you'll have everything settled before the cold sets in anyway. Looks great so far!


----------



## tenman (Jun 22, 2010)

Jim Toomey said:


> I've been using aluminet and it really does the job in diffusing the light and keeps it cool in the summer and warmer in the winter.
> 
> You may be able to get remnants to fit at a cheaper price...
> 
> ...



I would think you'll want less shading than 50% if you can keep it cool, which shouldn't be a problem there. In central Ohio, I have triple-wall glazing which allows in 85% of light. Between that and the 30% shadecloth, 60% of sunlight is admitted. None of the higher-light paphs are even close to burned, and I think they'd even like a little more light. Their flowering has been greatly improved since I decreased the % of shadecloth and moved them to a brighter location. I can keep the GH temps reasonable with the one evap cooler. What sort of cooling are you planning on? There's some tree shade early in the AM and some in late afternoon. It's a 14x24 lean-to. You're temps won't be warmer than mine, and your light is somewhat less. You may want to look into zoning your shade for higher light/lower light plants (i.e., callosum vs. roth), either by using different % on the roof, which would limit your flexibility in plant placement, or, probably more reasonably, one % across the whole roof, and installing light additional shade inside above lower light plants (or put them underneath the others - either under bench or by building up and putting higher light ones atop and lower-light ones on the main bench height). I remove my shadecloth sometime in Oct. and it goes back on in March. All I can say is watch your plants closely the first year especially. I'm still adjusting to the GH and so are the plants - and this is the third summer in the GH! One thing a friend tried to ease heating in the winter: a plastic dropped ceiling in the winter. It did cut light a little bit more, but stabilized temps and cut heating costs. Thin roll plastic sheeting could easily be stapled to those rafters if you don't have plants above that area, and easily removed for the warmer weather.


----------



## paphreek (Jun 22, 2010)

Good comments, Tennis. I'm going to install the first pieces of shade cloth in 16' x 7' pieces that will run on a track to open and close for flexibility. This time of the year, the shade from a large oak starts to shade the greenhouse around 3PM, which should help cooling during the hottest part of the day.


----------

