# Phrag. China Dragon 'Windy Hill III'



## abax (May 27, 2015)

Might this one be a Phrag. that doesn't like to sit in a clay
saucer of rainwater? I've lost an old growth...maybe two
old growths to what appears to be rot starting at the
bottom of the leaves and spreading upward. I've used
Cleary's hoping to stop the problem, but it seems to be
ineffective. I've cut the old growths off and there appears
to be a tiny new lead just poking out of the potting medium. I'm puzzled about what I might have done to this
very healthy plant that's been with me just a bit over a
month. All my other Phrags. are healthy and growing well
with the same regime. I've never lost a Phrag. and it's
going to break my heart if I lose this one. I'll take any
suggestions. Will hydrogen peroxide help?

If you want to see what the damage did look like before surgery, look at iwillard's post called "brown spots at the base".


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## iwillard (May 27, 2015)

Abax,

I just trashed 2 Phrag.dalessandroi with similar problem. Regardless of how much bad spots I removed,it was way into the base,I gave up and just chucked it into hillside where vegetation gets burned. Ones I caught early,I treated those with copper sulfate at concentrated level and a Q-tip as soon as I removed the bad sections and it's been 3 weeks without having jumpers into other growths in the same pot.
Phrags were nowhere near the paphs where I had problem but both had one thing in common,red mites which I've treated with Exclude a week ago, didn't faze them a bit,I was just out hitting all with Talstar and will use Floramite next week since it's been hot and I've been reluctant to get the leaves wet due to Erwinia.

Very discouraging to say the least.


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## troy (May 28, 2015)

Ouch!!! Sorry to hear that angela, I'll say a prair for your china dragon, hope it helps


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## SlipperFan (May 28, 2015)

China Dragon has caudatum in it. I find that hybrids with any of the caudatum complex in them don't want to stay as wet as other Phrags. I would never let them set in water -- I have enough trouble with erwinia even at that.


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## abax (May 28, 2015)

The plant will be out of the saucer tomorrow. I injected
the stump with H2O2 today and looked very closely with
a magnifying glass for erwinia and didn't see any. Didn't
see any critters on it either. The over-watering must have been the problem even in a clay pot and saucer.
I'm disheartened, but perhaps I've learned something...
maybe.

i willard, you have my deepest empathy...$150.00 worth!
In addition, I'd be willing to bet Windy Hill doesn't have
another one of that size. Oh woe is me.

Thank you, Troy. I appreciate it.


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## paphioboy (May 29, 2015)

abax said:


> ....looked very closely with
> a magnifying glass for erwinia and didn't see any.



Just curious, is it even possible to see Erwinia or discern its symptoms with a magnifying glass? As far as I know, Erwinia is a soft rot bacteria, and no bacteria can be seen only with magnifying glasses. You would need a microscope for that..


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## theorchidzone (May 29, 2015)

In my opinion there is little benefit to sitting any orchids in saucers of water which can become stagnant. Phrags do indeed like water but watering them very thoroughly every day or every second day is better. 

There is a cleansing benefit with regards to salts and other debris in watering through the pot very heavily. There is also benefit of drawing air into the mix, we believe. Finally, watering overhead heavily has the benefit of cleansing the crown. [contrary to the idea of not getting water in the crown]. 

As pointed out, caudatum hybrids like less water than besseae or kovachii. Watering every third day on average +/- depending on conditions (but thoroughly/heavily), would probably be best. Watering early in the day is advised also. 

Sometimes there is the impression that heavy watering causes rot. I don't think so. But once rot has begun, then water encourages the problem. 







abax said:


> The plant will be out of the saucer tomorrow. I injected
> the stump with H2O2 today and looked very closely with
> a magnifying glass for erwinia and didn't see any. Didn't
> see any critters on it either. The over-watering must have been the problem even in a clay pot and saucer.
> ...


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## Gilda (May 29, 2015)

Sorry about your China Dragon ! Hoping you can pull it through.

A funny story about caudatums sitting in water, which I always thought was a big NO. 

Touring HP Norton's greenhouse attached to the side of his house, there sat a beautiful in bloom caudatum in a tray of water. I looked at HP and said "I thought they didn't like sitting in water " and with that cute little grin he has and a twinkle in his eye , he said "That's what they say ". Go figure .......


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## orcoholic (May 29, 2015)

Wondering if it has anything to do with the seasons changing. I always have some problems with some Phrags when it gets hot out. I do grow the caudatum hybrids in saucers of water and recently got a CCM on a Tall Tails


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## abax (May 30, 2015)

I've gone over at least 100 possibilities for what I could have done to the plant in a month to cause the problem. No really definitive answers with the possible
exception that we've have very little sun and a lot of cloudy/rainy days and the plant just stayed too wet. All
my Paphs. and Phrags. are in clay pots with holes all the
way around the sides and bottom and I do water from the
top and let the run-off stay in the saucers for maybe one
or two days before rewatering and clearing the old water
out. I never, ever get water on the growths and there's
plenty of vigorous air movement in my greenhouse.

About the erwinia, there are characteristic marks that are
an indication of an erwinia infection and the plant doesn't
seem to have them. Besides that I've used Cleary's several times and H202 which should have eliminated
that possibility...maybe. I also gave the pot a shot of
Orthene when it arrived, so no bugs in my greenhouse.
I do have a small frog living in my gh...maybe he peed
in the pot. Hell if I know.

Just to be sure, I had my regular water and my rain barrel water tested today and it tested as usual at 7
and very, very clean.


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## Carkin (May 30, 2015)

I'm sorry to hear about your China Dragon. I lost one a couple of years ago to rot and I also could not figure out the cause, so frustrating! It's the only Phrag that I've ever had trouble with. I wonder if this cross is more susceptible to rot?


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## Gilda (May 30, 2015)

I find them difficult to get to bloom...not had rot problems.


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## abax (May 30, 2015)

On the other hand, a friend in Scotland has had a China
Dragon in bloom for 99 days. The plant was becoming a local celebrity. He's been posting photos with newspapers
on Orchid Source Forum for almost three months...same
bloom. It took him five years to bloom it, but the life of
the bloom was certainly worth it. Very pretty Dragon too!

I've decided to blame the problem on frog pee. I still
have one large growth and a very fast new growth coming along and Phyton 27 on order. Maybe there's
hope springs eternal or something like that!

Carkin, discourging is a mild word for this struggle. I'd call it a war. ;>)


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## Carkin (May 31, 2015)

Keep fighting Angela...I hope you win the war!


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