# Advice needed kovachii seed sowing



## eteson (Jun 13, 2013)

After years waiting.... I´ve got a "pod" of Pk :rollhappy:. I suspect that it is a selfing from an self-pollinated plant. The pod is impressive in size... almost 1.2 cm W x 7 cm L... and it is full of seed.
I've read in this forum some advices from some time ago...
I´ve read that Pk is hard to germinate, somewhere I read that it is really easy... somewhere that needs a medium with high pH... somewhere that the pH does not matter...
I´ve been succesful with schlimii, besseae, lindenii, longifoluim and others using half strengh P668 + coconut water and very low agar concentration... but I am a bit scared about this sowing  because I´ve been waiting for a long time to get the seed and I could take a long time to get more...

Any advice is more than welcome


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## eteson (Jun 13, 2013)

*Pictures of the Phragmipedium kovachii seeds*

Almost 95% of the seed has viable embryos!

Phragmipedium kovachii seed 40X @ Transmitted Light






Phragmipedium kovachii seed 40X @ Reflected Light





Phragmipedium kovachii seed 100X @ Transmitted Light





Phragmipedium kovachii seed 100X @ Reflected Light


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## eggshells (Jun 13, 2013)

Hey that is very cool. I cant help but good luck to you.


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## NYEric (Jun 14, 2013)

Cool. IDK, maybe one of the breeders here will know.


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## eteson (Jun 14, 2013)

NYEric said:


> maybe one of the breeders here will know.



In any case I am going to sow some of the seed tomorrow. I've prepared:
P668 at half strenght (sugar corrected to 18g/l)
100ml/l of coconut water
3.5 gr/l of agar
pH corrected to 6.0

Sucess or Failure will be posted here.


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## Trithor (Jun 17, 2013)

Good luck! I look forward to a positive next post from you.


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## eteson (Jun 17, 2013)

Trithor said:


> Good luck! I look forward to a positive next post from you.



Thanks a lot Trithor.

Two batches of seed were sow yesterday.
The first as described above, the second one in liquid medium (as was adviced for Paphios by Xavier).

Let´s wait a couple of weeks....


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## The Orchid Boy (Jun 17, 2013)

Anxious to hear the results!


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## eteson (Jun 27, 2013)

First report:

Testas are out, embryos growing in both media.  (germination in dark conditions)

In the first medium (P668 1/2 + CW) the embryos seem to be slightly more developped than in liquid media.

No green color yet but everything seems to be going pretty well... fingers crossed.


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## Trithor (Jun 29, 2013)

Well done, it sounds as if you are having good success!


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## Rick (Jun 29, 2013)

Wow that seems fast for germination.

Very good!

What was your sterilization procedure?


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## eteson (Jun 29, 2013)

Rick said:


> Wow that seems fast for germination.
> Very good!
> What was your sterilization procedure?



Hi Rick,

The night before sowing I put the seed in a test tube containing water + table sugar, I put a rubber cap and apply vaccum with a syringe. (8h of vaccum treatment is enough)
My standard sterilization procedure is 10 minutes in 10% bleach, 10 minutes in 5% bleach and one rinse in distilled water.


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## eteson (Jul 18, 2013)

Update... some green!

Sorry the poor quality of the pictures.











The seed in liquid media is not going that fast.


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## Trithor (Jul 19, 2013)

That is great! Seeing this makes me impatient to get started myself! Congratulations.


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## phrag guy (Jul 20, 2013)

they like to be cool


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## eteson (Jul 22, 2013)

phrag guy said:


> they like to be cool



They are at 23°C (73F) 24h/day. This temperature works well for the germination and development of schlimii, besseae, andreettae... etc, and seems to me also fine for kovachii.


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## Missgreen (Sep 4, 2013)

That's fantastic! I would love to try and sow my own Phrags  any chance of a new pic?


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## eteson (Sep 6, 2013)

Missgreen said:


> That's fantastic! I would love to try and sow my own Phrags  any chance of a new pic?



Hi Missgreen, If you do not have experience with in-vitro procedures I would advice to start with something easier... Phrags are not especially hard to germinate but need some "special cares"...

This weekend I can take a new picture for you... they are going quite fine but much more slower than other phrags.


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## Missgreen (Sep 8, 2013)

Oh I'm not going to try and sow anything just yet  next on the list is to get a flask of seedlings of some kind. But which orchids are easier than Phrags?


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## Missgreen (Sep 8, 2013)

Missgreen said:


> Oh I'm not going to try and sow anything just yet  next on the list is to get a flask of seedlings of some kind. But which orchids are easier than Phrags?


... to sow I mean :rollhappy:


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## raymond (Oct 5, 2013)

eteson said:


> Hi Rick,
> 
> The night before sowing I put the seed in a test tube containing water + table sugar, I put a rubber cap and apply vaccum with a syringe. (8h of vaccum treatment is enough)
> My standard sterilization procedure is 10 minutes in 10% bleach, 10 minutes in 5% bleach and one rinse in distilled water.



I do not know the procedure you explained the first pase vacuum with sugar is to the effect that it seeds?. I often contamination sown when I open the pods. your bottle okay?


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## eteson (Nov 20, 2013)

Update:

Are going much slower than expected...

Starting differentiation before replating:








This is a cross of besseae x andreettae that I sow the same day ...


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## NYEric (Nov 20, 2013)

Very cool! Thanks for the updates.


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## Trithor (Nov 21, 2013)

That is very cool (and impressive), made even more so because of what they are!


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## eteson (Nov 27, 2013)

I made first replate last saturday:


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## Modden (Nov 27, 2013)

Nice, let me know when besseae x andreettae flasks are up for sale  

Like raymond i was also interested in what the vacuum does to aid the sterilization process=)


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## eteson (Nov 27, 2013)

Modden said:


> Nice, let me know when besseae x andreettae flasks are up for sale
> 
> Like raymond i was also interested in what the vacuum does to aid the sterilization process=)



I have only a few flasks of besseae x andreettae... I am planning to sell the first batch as NBS or at least as well established seedlings... but more to come!

I did not understood correctly the question from Raymond, my English is not very good and I think he made a direct translation with google translate.

The process is quite easy:

As you may know one of the fundamental problems during Phragmipedium seed sterilization is that the seed does not wet easily and it is common to have high rates of contamination.

My procedure is as follows:

-Put the seed in a small vial 2-3 cc with a rubber cap.
Make a solution of 1tsp of sugar in 100cc of distilled water and add a couple of drops of Tween20 or regular liquid soap.

-Insert the solution in the vial using a syringe (fill the vial up to 2/3 of the total volume).

-with the same syringe apply vaccum to the vial (extract all the air from the vial).

-Shake it well for 5-10 minutes and let it overnight or up to 24 h

The solution should be able to wet the seed completely and the sugar helps to the decapsulation of some types of sopres and other contaminats... Also I have found that this procedure reduces the germination time

After this process you should sterilize the seed using the regular procedure of Calcium or Sodium hypochlorite.

Hope it helps.


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## Modden (Nov 27, 2013)

Thank you for that detailed account =)


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## Migrant13 (Nov 27, 2013)

This is all very interesting especially for folks like me who have not flasked before. Now if I can just remember all these tips when I get to it someday!


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## eteson (Dec 9, 2013)

Update. They are growing quite fine... slower than expected but everything is ok.


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## eteson (Dec 9, 2013)

As you can see I am pretty bad taking pictures


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## eteson (Dec 9, 2013)

error


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## gonewild (Dec 9, 2013)

Get excited when you see roots! That is when you know you have the right formula for kovachii.


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## NYEric (Dec 9, 2013)

Grow, grow, grow...!!!


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## Secundino (Dec 10, 2013)

Fantastic! Enhorabuena, Eliseo!


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## dodidoki (Dec 10, 2013)

I think it is an amazing topic, from only group of 30 tiny cells to a living plant....very well documented, many thanks for that!I hope the end of topic will be a nice group of flowering plants there and if these ones are from selfings, maybe there will be a white kovachii among them!!! ( and then you will be a rich man!!!)


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## eteson (Jan 29, 2014)

Update: some seedlings are starting to root. they are developing very slowly but I think that i have got the correct media.






I also constructed a box connected to the air conditioning system to keep some phrag species, specially kovachii, cooler than the hybrids.


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## Stone (Jan 31, 2014)

Nice work. Can I ask what your media is?


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## eteson (Jan 31, 2014)

It is P668 at 1/2, sugar corrected to 20gr/l and 50g/l of homogeneized banana. It is important to use a good buffer (MES for example) to avoid pH decrease and keep the flasks cool. I've lost some flasks because of temperatures above 26C.

Enviado desde mi SGH-I337M mediante Tapatalk


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## NYEric (Jan 31, 2014)

Excellent, good luck.


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## eteson (Feb 26, 2014)

Very Bad news....
I had to travel and during my ausence the cooling system went off. My growing room reached 42°C during 3 days... I´ve lost a huge amount of Phrag flasks... of course 90%-95% of the kovachii died. I am going to be very happy If i can rescue 25-50 kovachii plantlets. I am devastated.

andreettae crosses are quite resitant to heat and are starting to recover slowly.

I have some pictures but are so obscene for slipper growers.


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## NYEric (Feb 26, 2014)

:sob:
Very bad news is correct. You should find a helpful friend to check on things when you are away. Good luck. (show the photos)


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## cnycharles (Feb 26, 2014)

Sorry to hear


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## SlipperFan (Feb 26, 2014)

That is sad! I hope you can salvage some.


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## eteson (Feb 27, 2014)

Some Pictures of my disaster as requested by Eric:















On the positive side:
1-I´ve learned that I cannot trust in electronic devices.
2-The few surviving plants are going to be extremely heat resistant


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## NYEric (Feb 27, 2014)

Owwww!


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## eaborne (Feb 27, 2014)

I am so sorry to hear this Eliseo.


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## MorandiWine (Mar 1, 2014)

NOOOOOOO!!!!

But like you said, heat resistant PK could be a great bonus!!

Sorry 

Tyler


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## Trithor (Mar 2, 2014)

Hell Eliseo! That is terrible, I am very sorry that this had to happen. ( a few months ago I lost a whole flask import, because a staff member who was charging his cell phone, turned on a heater at the same time and cooked the whole consignment of flasks) so it is not only electronic devices you can't trust, human error can be just as devastating!


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## chrismende (Mar 3, 2014)

You know this story is not nearly as unusual as we would wish! Flask rooms are very, very vulnerable! If I ever have that kind of space I will have to buy an auxiliary generator and the services of a human to monitor when I'm not there!
Eliseo, I'm so very, very sorry this happened to you.


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## eteson (Mar 3, 2014)

Thanks a lot for your comments.
I just made an order for this device:
http://www.elertus.com/
I think that the combination of this device and a cell phone with internet connection in the growing room is going to allow me to monitor the GR conditions from my smartphone.
Definitively, most part of the species seedlings are not recovering , but some crosses are quite happy...for example, the andreettae x pearcei flasks were boosted by the heat.


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## eteson (Mar 22, 2014)

Did you thought that the disaster in my growing room was going to be the end of this thread? Me too... 
...but some kovachii flasklings are tough enough to keep fighting!
Some plants are recovering!


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## AdamD (Mar 23, 2014)

Good news! Glad to see these guys overcame the adversity. You have a natural selection experiment going on, only the strongest and most adaptable survived!


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## Rick (Mar 23, 2014)

Very Cool Etson:wink:


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## NYEric (Mar 24, 2014)

Amazing. Good luck.


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## Trithor (Mar 25, 2014)

Good to see that not all is lost! 
Eliseo, the P668 that you are using is from Sigma? If it is, my understanding is that P668 is half strength M&S, so in effect you would be using Quarter strength M&S, not so? The reason why I am asking is that I am using half strength M&S with a few additives, and am considering further reducing the concentration for mother flasks.


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## eteson (Mar 25, 2014)

Hi Gary, I am using 1/2*P668 from Phytotechlab that is in effect 1/4*M&S. I use to correct sugar to 20 gr/l, and vitamins to full strength. I am testing also the effect of correcting peptone to full strength. To avoid pH unwanted changes I add 1gr/l of MES.
Also I made a couple of flasks with the NPK ratios of Klite.

Enviado desde mi SGH-I337M mediante Tapatalk


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## SlipperFan (Mar 25, 2014)

That is good news!


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## Trithor (Mar 26, 2014)

Hi Eliseo, thanks for replying. Have you tried Half strength M&S (full strength p668)? I am trying to figure out if there is any benefit to reducing the concentration any further. I am getting good results with half strength M&S , with. Vitamins, peptone and sugar adjusted to full strength. I have started testing an amino acid based formula, and a hybrid of M&S with added amino acids, but it. Is still to early to tell if there is any benefit. All this medium testing is generating a lot of flasks, and seed supply has now become my biggest limiting factor. I have started with the replanting, but that is a tedious task and there are hundreds that need doing.


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## Justin (Mar 26, 2014)

i am so sorry to hear about your disaster! hopefully you have some new pods started already so you can re-stock your lab...


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## eteson (Mar 26, 2014)

Hi Gary, thanks for sharing your receipes! I do use p668 full strength for catts but seem to me quite 'hot' for phrags... at least for species. I'll try for hybrids.
Justin, thanks for your words. I do have some new pods hanging out thee, but for others I have to wait till next flowering season...

Enviado desde mi SGH-I337M mediante Tapatalk


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## eteson (Jun 19, 2014)

We lost some posts here during the server switch...

A Few seedlings (about 200) have recovered from the cooking event in my growing room and are starting to do it well again.

Following the suggestion of Eric and Lance I am going to call this strain "spartans" because the seedlings are among the 1/1000 most heat resistant from the whole seedpod... so the seedlings have been highly "selected"... I do not know if this is going to be positive in flower size and shape but for sure is going to be good to start a line of heat resistant kovachiis as was said by Lance.


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## gonewild (Jun 19, 2014)

eteson said:


> We lost some posts here during the server switch...
> 
> A Few seedlings (about 200) have recovered from the cooking event in my growing room and are starting to do it well again.
> 
> Following the suggestion of Eric and Lance I am going to call this strain "spartans" because the seedlings are among the 1/1000 most heat resistant from the whole seedpod... so the seedlings have been highly "selected"... I do not know if this is going to be positive in flower size and shape but for sure is going to be good to start a line of heat resistant kovachiis as was said by Lance.




Yes, the first step is to establish a line that will grow at warm temps better than the wild plants, and then later start to improve the flower quality.


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## Dawn (Jun 19, 2014)

As an orchid enthusiast (husband says addict) I would be interested in more heat tolerant Kovachii. Dawn Dawson


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## NYEric (Jun 20, 2014)

I can't believe my beautiful posts are gone.


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## eteson (Oct 12, 2014)

Has been a while since my last update...
Here we go!





Finally the kovachii seedlings started to grow a little bit faster.


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## Rick (Oct 12, 2014)

What media are you using with these Eliseo?


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## eteson (Oct 12, 2014)

I've tested several media... some comercial and some made by myself... I am having the best results with MS at 1/4 adding some calcuim nitrate, banana, and maltodextrine. Sometimes I put also peptone but not always. It is critical to buffer the media. (I use MES).
The use of maltodextrine allows to decrease the agar to 2-3gr/l keeping fair consistency of the media and very good difussion rates (this gives you more time between replates).


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## NYEric (Oct 13, 2014)

Looking good. Hopefully you will have blooming size before you firstborn graduates from college!


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## eaborne (Oct 15, 2014)

NYEric said:


> Looking good. Hopefully you will have blooming size before you firstborn graduates from college!



:rollhappy:


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## eteson (Oct 15, 2014)

If they keep growing at the same rate probably not....


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## NYEric (Oct 15, 2014)

Stop cooking them! oke:


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## eteson (Oct 15, 2014)

The ones treated for polyploidy are much smaller.


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## troy (Oct 16, 2014)

I want to know why it takes 1+ years to get a flask back from the the lab


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## troy (Oct 16, 2014)

Yours went much much faster


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## eteson (Oct 16, 2014)

Troy, Phrag species are much slower than hybrids... but in about one year under normal conditions you can have kovachii seedlings ready to be deflasked.
I cooked my flasks because my AC system went off for a few days and the surviving seedlings had to start again from undiferenciated callus...

I sow at about the same time some andreettae hybrids and are ten times the size of the kovachii seedlings...


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## eteson (Dec 8, 2014)

New update: seedlings are ready for the last? replate.






The root system is doing it fine.


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## naoki (Dec 8, 2014)

They are looking nice, Eliseo! They are already bigger than the ones from Peruflora.


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## NYEric (Dec 8, 2014)

Cool, keep growing.


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## Peru (May 19, 2016)

Hello Eliseo! what hqppens with the seedlibgs at the end?


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## eteson (Dec 28, 2016)

Growing very slowly... but growing!


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## eteson (Dec 28, 2016)

Growing very slowly... but growing!


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## tomkalina (Dec 28, 2016)

They look good, Eliseo! How about sharing a few growing tips? Like substrate, water quality in terms of TDS and pH, light levels and temperatures! Also, how long have they been in compot?

Thanks,


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## eteson (Dec 28, 2016)

Tom, I grow them side by side with the other Phrag. seedlings. The substrate is perlite mixed with sphagnum. In some of the pots I put some calcareous fragments of 0.5 to 1 cm but I do not see better results.
I think that the key factor is the temperature:
Here I do have nights of about 12C to 14C and during the day the peak temperature is about 30C for a couple of hours at noon.
About fertilizing I do have a proportional pump mixer that is giving a final concentration of about 10PPM of N. I use MSU pure water alternated with WuxalCa or Klite. I water them 3 times/week, two fertizing and one without fertilizer. The seedlings are geting a couple of hours of direct sunlight early in the morning.
I made the first deflask about 6 months ago and they are growing slowly... but i am very happy!


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## tomkalina (Dec 28, 2016)

Thanks, Eliseo. I hope ours look as good after 6 months!


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## TrueNorth (Jan 7, 2017)

They look good. Are these the ones that got cooked when your A/C failed?


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## eteson (Jan 13, 2017)

Yes, the spartans!

Enviado desde mi SM-J700M mediante Tapatalk


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## NYEric (Jan 13, 2017)

Good name!


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## Greg (Apr 25, 2019)

eteson said:


> Hi Rick,
> 
> The night before sowing I put the seed in a test tube containing water + table sugar, I put a rubber cap and apply vaccum with a syringe. (8h of vaccum treatment is enough)
> My standard sterilization procedure is 10 minutes in 10% bleach, 10 minutes in 5% bleach and one rinse in distilled water.


When you say 10%, is that 1 part standard houeshold bleach and 9 parts water?


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