# Phal bastianii/mariae



## cnycharles (Apr 18, 2009)

I bought this plant from Jim Rice Orchids a while ago, it was labeled phal mariae. He had imported several phal species pre-cites, and had many mariaes that he would self and make outcrosses of. He also received some phal deltonii's, some of which I had purchased (and are now called phal bastianii as the name wasn't official). I don't remember how his mariae's looked, or if I ever saw any of the deltonii's/bastianii's, but the flowers on this plant look more like phal bastianii. It is very possible tags got switched in the greenhouse. I am also wondering if this plant might be an accidental hybrid of mariae and bastianii, so if there is anyone who can really tell the difference between the two I'd be happy to hear from you! It is really flowering this year, more than triple the number of buds/flowers that it's had before.



























I have Eric Christensen's Phal Species Monograph and from most descriptions and pictures, it sounds like phal bastianii more than mariae. Other plants that I have labeled mariae look a bit different, but they haven't flowered yet.


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## Yoyo_Jo (Apr 18, 2009)

Wow, congrats on those blooms, they make a gorgeous display. :clap:


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## Rick (Apr 18, 2009)

Charles
There seems to be allot of variation amongst the variations of mariae and bastianii

This particular flower looks quite a bit different from Tom Harper's awarded bastianii which virtually has red bands across the petals. The flowers of his bastianii are smaller (but more numerous per spike) than various mariae I've seen.

That being said I've seen many other "bastianii" that look much more like your flower. Tom Harper is an AOS judge and phal specialist. You might contact him and see what he thinks.


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## Kyle (Apr 18, 2009)

My guess is that you have a hybrid.

The flowers are cupped, but not enough to be marie, and the spike is to verticle, but not striaght up and down enough to be bastiani. Bastiani has very flat flowers. 

Cruise over to peter lins phal forum. This differences are discussed quite ofter and there are more then enough photo comparisions there.

Kyle


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## Candace (Apr 18, 2009)

Beautiful!


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## cnycharles (Apr 18, 2009)

Kyle said:


> My guess is that you have a hybrid.
> 
> The flowers are cupped, but not enough to be marie, and the spike is to verticle, but not striaght up and down enough to be bastiani. Bastiani has very flat flowers.
> 
> ...



*sigh* yes, I agree with these observations... I was actually on peter's site earlier looking at pics of bastianii, most looked more 'round' than star-shaped. that said there were others that did look like this plant, I think I'll contact a judge to see what they think. It does have nice flowers but I probably haven't had a mariae live and flower and the other bastianii that I had from Rice's isn't alive anymore


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## SlipperFan (Apr 18, 2009)

Then I wonder about mine. It's labelled mariae: I think I bought it from Oak Hill.


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## cnycharles (Apr 18, 2009)

well, christenson says that mariae has pendant flower spikes, and strongly recurved sepals/petals; bastianii has upright spikes and flat flowers. mariae is supposed to have lots of trichomes on the lip, bastianii few.

now, that said, the pictures of mariae in christenson's book are pretty flat, I don't see that much recurving. looking again at christenson's descriptions it looks more like mariae than bastianii. it looks like the flower in your picture is on an upright spike and has a flat flower. it also has lots of trichomes on the lip! 
(I have a headache...)

this reminds me of what aggravation flower i.d. is from trying to tell different grades of fall-flowering species of spiranthes apart, that likely have introgression between species. sometimes I think certain plants/species have too many mixed genes and our trying to fit them into a shoebox doesn't work so well

I also looked at more pictures of bastianii's on peter's site, there were plants there called bastianii that had flat inflorescences, lots of trichomes on the lip, and things like that that are supposed to be signs of mariae. I'm not convinced of anything, really, but don't know what is a 'real' mariae or bastianii. christenson does say that it's likely there are only a few real mariae in cultivation


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## SlipperFan (Apr 18, 2009)

It sure gives me a headache, also!
The truth is, I think the spikes are a bit pendant. I usually bring them upright to conserve space.


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## Kyle (Apr 18, 2009)

Yes, thats bastianii. I think Oak Hill is one of the main nurseries spreading the miss-labled plants. Mine came indirectly from there.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with bastianii.

Kyle


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## cnycharles (Apr 18, 2009)

her flowers, though have lots of trichomes on the lip; isn't that supposed to be a sign of mariae or isn't that a good thing to go by? the picture in christenson's book of bastianii shows very few trichomes, also it has just as much if not more recurving of the sepals and petals as the pictures of mariae
???


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## Orchidzrule (Apr 18, 2009)

I was all set to say I bought one from a vendor who, in turn, had bought it from Oak Hill, but I see Kyle beat me to it! He & I bought from the same vendor a few years back. Mine has yet to bloom, but I'm sure it will be the same--bastiani mislabelled as mariae. Mind you, both are great looking flowers. If mine would ever bloom...


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## Rick (Apr 18, 2009)

Man I just looked at a bunch of pictures of both species on phals.net, and there is so much variation in color form and structure within each concept, I can't tell a thing.

Also at one point, bastianii was considered just a form of leudmaniani. If you check out that species, then you have a total mess.


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## SlipperFan (Apr 19, 2009)

Is this another case of splitter vs. lumper?


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## cnycharles (Apr 19, 2009)

it's tough to say; I've read that there are at least three different color forms of mariae probably depending on location, and bastianii isn't that far away as far as where it grows in comparison to mariae. it could be like the spiranthes that though not exactly the same thing, they are diverging and have lots of things mixed up. also plants in cultivation were probably all called mariae, and used for making outcrosses and are now different grades of hybrids; you take a wide mix of colors/shapes and then cross a few together and all around and it could be very tough to tell what is exactly what (unfortunately). to top it off, I was consoling myself that at least the mariae I had from oak hill would be a mariae, and here I hear that they are likely bastianii!  oh my aching head! this is why I didn't want to get into buying plants like phal cornu cervi and it's near neighbors pantherina and the others, and now these dark forms. I bought a phal pantherina from a usually reputable source, and later have been told that it actually is probably a nice cornu cervi, and that the cornu cervi I have could be a line bred creation with possible mixes with other things in it.
when things in nature are too close together, it's too easy to start saying 'new species', 'new varieties', and have to try and buy a bunch of different things and hope you are getting what the label says, or that the plants aren't really anything different


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## Leo Schordje (Apr 20, 2009)

Hey CHarles, 
THe problem with comparing your plant to photos on the net is that many of the net photos are misidentified. Go to the source. Email Eric Christiansen the pictures of your flower, I know he is in town this week. I will send you his email address in a PM. It is best to base your identification on the species type description, not some 3rd partie's photos on the net. 
Leo


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## cnycharles (Apr 20, 2009)

good advice! I think the rounder plants with more white are mariaes, and the ones with more color mixed through are bastianii, though mariae is supposed to have three color forms (??)
thanks,
charles


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## SlipperFan (Apr 21, 2009)

Eric Christiansen confirmed that the information and photos of bastianii and mariae on this website are true:
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/bernard...es%20mati%E8res/table%20des%20mati%E8res.html

Thanks to Wendy for calling my attention to this website.


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## cnycharles (Apr 21, 2009)

*hybrids*

I did email Mr. Christenson last night, and he confirmed that both my and Dot's phals pictured here are hybrids. He also said that he then went to look at a bunch of internet sites with pictures, and none of them he looked at were mariaes, both the pictures of bastianii and mariae on Jay Pfahl's website are of bastianii, and one other site the plant pictured was neither but a lueddemanniana hybrid! So, accurate pictures are very hard to find.

He pointed out that the real point to look for to find mariae, is a pendant flower spike. As he put it, that doesn't mean horizontal or sloping down, but hanging right down like limp spaghetti! He also made some points about differences in shape of sepals and petals, but I guess if that spike isn't drooping right down then it definitely isn't a mariae. I guess for these species, if you want to know what it is before buying it, you need to see the parents or a plant that has already flowered or at least has put out a spike long enough to be able to droop. *sigh*

Sorry Dot! Looks like the mariae/bastianii I also have from oak hill is probably a hybrid as well.


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## Kyle (Apr 21, 2009)

Thanks for posting the info.

I am curious to see my bastianii come into bloom again. It came from Oak Hill, but I did not see any evidence of maria in the flower. Plus the plant was ID in person by Olaf, who did the original description of the species. Unfortunatly I never took a picture of the flower, so I will have to wait till it blooms again. Fingures crossed.

Kyle


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## mkline3 (Apr 22, 2009)

Whatever it is I love it!


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## Leo Schordje (Apr 22, 2009)

That this plant is a hybrid explains why I could not place the flower using the photos posted. 

On the pendant spike of the true Phal mariae, at a show, I believe St Louis, a wonderful Phal mariae was displayed. It had 3 or 4 pendant flower stems, they hung STRAIGHT DOWN, totally lax, no stiffness at all. THey hung down between 3 and 4 feet. THe owners said most of the flower stems were several years old and had been continuously blooming. There is a flush of blooms in spring, but mariae is one of the species that once mature will be in bloom year round for years at a time. The plant had at least 20 flowers open for the show.


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## SlipperFan (Apr 22, 2009)

OK. Now I have to find a real mariae!

Charles, keep us posted on the plant you got from Oak Hill. Kyle, you, also, please.


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## cnycharles (Apr 22, 2009)

Hello again Dot,
About your plant, you were asking about what name to give it? If you know when you got if from Oak Hill and asked them which source they got it from, they might be able to trace what breeding was done to make the plant. That might help a lot to determine if it is a lovely marie or what. I think mine likely was a mariae that had bastianii pollen put on it by mistake when some deltoniis came along with the mariaes. I did have a plant labeled as deltonii from Rice's and can remember the flower pics (the plant died) and from what I remember of the flowers they were probably straight bastianii. The mariae plant that I have (the oldest one) from Oak Hill looks sort of different from the bastianii hybrid, so I'm hoping that it is a mariae. I wasn't thinking before that they (oak hill) probably get plants from different sources right along so just because one has flowered as a hybrid, doesn't necessarily mean that all will be, but maybe it would be a good idea to let them know that a plant you purchased from them on such and such a date was tentatively identified as a hybrid. They may be able to put you on a track of a plant that can be clearly identified as a mariae. If so, remember your friends!


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## SlipperFan (Apr 22, 2009)

I might contact them. But some time ago, I did ask Hermann about a Phal species that I thought was misidentified, and his response was that names change and the name was what it used to be called. So I'm not sure this will go anywhere, but I guess it won't hurt to try. The problem is that I don't have a record of when I purchased the plant.


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## biothanasis (Apr 23, 2009)

I love phal flowers with this colour pattern!!! WOW


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## cnycharles (Apr 23, 2009)

half again of the flowers decided to start opening today, right before I boxed up my plants to go to the STOS show. I had registered the plant as phal bastianii, and decided not to change the registration to a hybrid because I don't know yet what it might be; though it might get a ribbon I'm sure there isn't any worry about aos awards, in which case it would have to be properly identified before an award would be final, and I would just refuse the award anyhow. I'm not very concerned about that happening, anyhow. It is nice to see all of those flowers after a long, cold (very few flowering plants) winter!


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## Paul (Apr 24, 2009)

that's very nice!!!


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## Leo Schordje (Apr 24, 2009)

Close scrutiny of the photos seems pretty certain (not absolute, but fairly certain) the hybrids pictured are (bastianii x mariae). It seems Eric Christiansen's opinion was this, so you have his authority behind it. If you are not making hybrids with your plant, or otherwise using it where the actual genetics are a big issue. I would say it is safe to exhibit the plant as:

Phalaenopsis Lovely Marie (bastianii x mariae) registered in 2007 by Lippold. 

If you sell or give away pieces of the plant at that time I would say it is important to point out how you came to give it the name Lovely Marie, but I think for ribbon judging at shows Lovely Marie is "Good Enough" a name. 

Leo


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## Rick (Apr 24, 2009)

Does anyone have plants guaranteed collected from the jungle that are blooming? Or pictures of in situ plants in bloom? However, even a few pics of jungle plants rarely captures the natural variation of complete populations.

It seems like 90%+ of internet photos are of hybrids all claiming to be the real deal. That's got to be the highest rate of miss-identification next to villosum varieties.


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## SlipperFan (Apr 24, 2009)

Rick said:


> Does anyone have plants guaranteed collected from the jungle that are blooming? Or pictures of in situ plants in bloom? However, even a few pics of jungle plants rarely captures the natural variation of complete populations.
> 
> It seems like 90%+ of internet photos are of hybrids all claiming to be the real deal. That's got to be the highest rate of miss-identification next to villosum varieties.


Please see my previous post:
Eric Christiansen confirmed that the information and photos of bastianii and mariae on this website are true:
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/bernard....ati%E8res.html


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## Leo Schordje (Apr 24, 2009)

Rick said:


> Does anyone have plants guaranteed collected from the jungle that are blooming? Or pictures of in situ plants in bloom? However, even a few pics of jungle plants rarely captures the natural variation of complete populations.
> 
> It seems like 90%+ of internet photos are of hybrids all claiming to be the real deal. That's got to be the highest rate of miss-identification next to villosum varieties.



Beacause of the $$$ motive that enters into orchid collecting, all information is suspect. Unless you collect it yourself can you really "know" for certain where a plant came from? 

Every time a plant changes hands, each person selling, has a motive to tell the person buying what they want to hear, rather than the specific truth. Sometime you get accurate information, sometimes you don't. Since from the wilds to collectors in the states you typically have 5 to 10 or more different middle men, all you need is one middleman to pass on mis-information, then your provenance is false. Most people are fairly honest, but it just takes one mistatement in the chain and the history of a plant becomes a fiction. 

Given that, habitat photos are very helpful even if they don't have all the details one would ideally need. There are old photos of early collected plants, check AQ for some of them. Use the AQ with the caveat that there are many mis-identified species awards published by the AOS, and even when they know they right name, they refuse to go back and change or correct names. In order to get it right one must read and re-read the original lit and the monographs that result, like Christiansen's "The Genus Phalaenopsis". 

Regardless, we need a new generation of orchid growers to develop the desire to become expert on their favorite groups and really study the original descriptions & literature in order to clear up these messes. I'm passing the challenge on, charge !!! :viking:

There are people who are wrong on the internet, they must be corrected. :evil: Go out and correct them. :arrr:


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## cnycharles (Apr 24, 2009)

Leo Schordje said:


> Close scrutiny of the photos seems pretty certain (not absolute, but fairly certain) the hybrids pictured are (bastianii x mariae). It seems Eric Christiansen's opinion was this, so you have his authority behind it. If you are not making hybrids with your plant, or otherwise using it where the actual genetics are a big issue. I would say it is safe to exhibit the plant as:
> 
> Phalaenopsis Lovely Marie (bastianii x mariae) registered in 2007 by Lippold.
> 
> ...



sounds good. since the plants are somewhat near in nature in the philippines, has there every been any checking to see if there are natural hybrids between the two?


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## Leo Schordje (Apr 25, 2009)

I would check Eric Christiansen's book to find out about natural hybrids. Also Herman Sweet's book. 

You said your plant came from seed. I would assume it is the man made hybrid rather than the natural hybrid, simply because you have no clear provenance other than it did come from seed in a nursery in the USA. To label it as a natural hybrid has the potential of muddying the waters in the future, when your plant goes to other people hands and they don't know the story.


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## cnycharles (Apr 25, 2009)

Leo Schordje said:


> I would check Eric Christiansen's book to find out about natural hybrids. Also Herman Sweet's book.
> 
> You said your plant came from seed. I would assume it is the man made hybrid rather than the natural hybrid, simply because you have no clear provenance other than it did come from seed in a nursery in the USA. To label it as a natural hybrid has the potential of muddying the waters in the future, when your plant goes to other people hands and they don't know the story.



close, I pointed out that he made seedlings at times, but whether or not the pods made viable seed or the flasks made it back to him and/or they were killed or not is the question. he also had many that were just imported. though he had very nice plants that were imported and grew most of his species pretty well, the culture for seedlings out of flask at times wasn't very special!  just covering all of my thoughts as to if there were plants that were imported that could have possibly been natural hybrids. many more plants came in that were from other foreign nurseries or were imported after collecting than ever made it out of a pod, into a compot and grew to be sold. more than likely I'll just label it as phal lovely marie and suggest no breeding unless a flower could be sent to be identified where the taxonomist was confident enough to state it wasn't a natural hybrid, and most likely just a straight hybrid between mariae and bastianii
thanks for the help!


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## cnycharles (Apr 26, 2009)

*ooops*

before I had posted the plant and flower pics in this thread, I had pre-registered it as phal bastianii in the stos show in binghamton, ny. after I got there I mentioned to a few people that I wasn't sure if it was still a species or a hybrid, but that I didn't think it would be winning any awards so didn't bother going through the process to change the name and division and all that and have a new label printed out. I was surprised to see today that it had received a blue ribbon for best phal species and best miniature phal species.....  I was almost going to mention to one of the judges who vends beforehand that if a certain plant came up for anything to let it pass but didn't do so because I didn't want anyone to think I was trying to 'influence' anything. next time it will be registered as a hybrid... people really like it, though


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## truemadman (Apr 27, 2009)

Hi All.

These phal are imported from the Philippines. The first is phal mariae and the second is phal bastianii. Hope this will help a bid. Sorry for the quality of the pictures. If a closeup needed, let me know.


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## Leo Schordje (Apr 27, 2009)

Congrats Charles, remember, ribbons are more for good culture and good flower presentation, rather than specific conformation to some "ideal". Good growing.


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## cnycharles (Apr 27, 2009)

thanks, and thanks for the pictures. mariae is now pretty clear to me after seeing plants with descending spikes and flowers hanging down. I had always thought before that the plants with more white area on them would be mariae, but the old notes before that mariae had three color forms (this probably originated before bastianii/deltonii was known about) always made room for confusion. 

that all said, does anyone have a source for known mariaes, or have one for sale?  i've checked a few places now and one source told me to hang on until their seedlings flowered so that they could tell for sure, and another in utah sold them all before I had found their site!  I now have three plants from oak hill, two labeled mariae and one bastianii, and have also heard that they are getting them from the same source as before but now know that they aren't mariae but bastianii, so being sold as bastianii


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## nikv (May 1, 2009)

^ ^
I don't have a source for mariae, but orchidtn has bastianii for sale on eBay (U.S.) as a Buy It Now for 6.99 each. I just purchased one this morning.

http://cgi.ebay.com/species-Phalaenopsis-Bastianii-NBS_W0QQitemZ140316787383QQihZ004QQcategoryZ42218QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262


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## Rick (May 1, 2009)

truemadman said:


> Hi All.
> 
> These phal are imported from the Philippines. The first is phal mariae and the second is phal bastianii. Hope this will help a bid. Sorry for the quality of the pictures. If a closeup needed, let me know.



I'd like to see a closeup of the lips of each, and a whole plant shot of each to see a good comparison of the ascending vs descending spikes.


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## cnycharles (May 1, 2009)

nikv said:


> ^ ^
> I don't have a source for mariae, but orchidtn has bastianii for sale on eBay (U.S.) as a Buy It Now for 6.99 each. I just purchased one this morning.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/species-Phalaenopsis-Bastianii-NBS_W0QQitemZ140316787383QQihZ004QQcategoryZ42218QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262



 if anyone desires a bastianii seedling, I must have four now, all hoping to get mariae, but all are from Oak Hill so are bastianii 

hey, guess what! I was doing a mariae google search last night, and found this link
http://www.cnyos.org/vstfiles/vst1003.html

turns out it's a picture I posted back seven years ago, a plant I think which is now dead but the plant was definitely mariae 
irony is terrible... I had forgotten that the picture was still on our orchid club website


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## cnycharles (May 5, 2009)

*mariae source soon*

I talked with Oak Hill, and they said that they have some identified phal mariae in the works, and should have some in a little while. Tom Harper identified the plant they have as phal mariae.


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## SlipperFan (May 5, 2009)

cnycharles said:


> I talked with Oak Hill, and they said that they have some identified phal mariae in the works, and should have some in a little while. Tom Harper identified the plant they have as phal mariae.


Good to know. I'll keep my eyes out for it.


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