# Why don't some of you actually READ my book?



## Lance Birk (Nov 6, 2009)

Over the past couple of years I have noticed a great many of the same questions continually asked by people on this forum who have bought my paph book. These questions are fully answered if the text is actually read. I give altitude and habitat data as well as growing tips for each, separate species (for the most part), and in the cultural section you can learn everything you want to know about successful orchid growing in just about every situation. 

When I wrote the 1st edition in 1984 it changed the entire process of orchid culture, a fact confirmed by the publication of many new books on many different genera, by numerous new authors who had adapted my own techniques and conditions. Becoming a successful grower of orchids is no longer difficult when these techniques are utilized.

I just find it interesting to consider why some people fail to accept methods that will work, in any place (practically) around the world. I've been to many of those greenhouses and growing areas myself, and seen the results.

Come on fellas, read the text. Be brave. Get more fans, give them more light and water them well.

Be a success!


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## Ernie (Nov 6, 2009)

Rock on, Lance. 

-Ernie


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## Yoyo_Jo (Nov 6, 2009)

LOL. Guilty.


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## goldenrose (Nov 6, 2009)

What a woman Joanne, the 1st to admit it!
OK sometimes I'm a little guilty. Your book does have a wealth of info ....
but forgive me .......
I can't resist ........

ST's Top Ten excuses-
which one do some of you want to use? BTW feel free to add on!
1. Unfortunately it's a sign of the times - convenience - it's easier to post & ask on the forum than it is to read a book!
2. I can't find my glasses!
3. We like to socialize with our fellow addicts!


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## Ron-NY (Nov 6, 2009)

It is a very good book Lance! I pull it out often


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## andre (Nov 6, 2009)

Hey Lance,
I have your books and they have been a great guide!!! I also have your audio book The Last Orchid Hunter and find it full of descriptive habitat information and adventure. I love the story of the Blue Masdevallia...
Keep up the great work!!!
Andre


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## slippertalker (Nov 6, 2009)

I have the first book and still refer to it although several more species have been discovered since. The section on flasking is something that I re-read just yesterday.


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## rdhed (Nov 6, 2009)

Adding to 'TOP 10':

4. I would rather reinvent the mousetrap.
5. "Please mother, I would rather do it myself."
6. Quoting Dr. Phil "How's that working for you?"

--Allen--


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## NYEric (Nov 6, 2009)

Real men use photos not words! :evil:


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## Wendy (Nov 6, 2009)

That book is invaluable to me. I've read it cover to cover a few times and always look up cultural needs in it.


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## Paph_LdyMacBeth (Nov 6, 2009)

I'm one of those people who will read something, but I won't believe it or remember it until someone actually tells me so. Its a bad habit.


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## SlipperFan (Nov 6, 2009)

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but sometimes what works for one doesn't work for another. One can't always give a plant it's ideal conditions, so we have to "punt" sometimes, and experiment. Lance's book is a wealth of information, but so is orchidspecies.com, slipperorchids.info, phragweb.info, etc.


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## Jim Toomey (Nov 6, 2009)

I love the book's content and it is on my night stand, I refer to it often!
I also am very impressed with the quality of the printing and binding of the book! 
Awesome!
Jim T


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## Rick (Nov 6, 2009)

I started many of my growing practices just before getting your book Lance, and it validated much of what I was doing. Particularly in the Air Environment area.

That's probably got me up to about 80% of where I want to go, but biology is not infallible with lots of uncontrolled variables. I still have occasional losses and stubborn species that I could be doing better with that I just can't find the magic combination yet. (Even from your book ). 

So it doesn't hurt my feelings to post a question or try to respond to culture questions as they come up on the site to try to come up with that last 20%.


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## cnycharles (Nov 6, 2009)

though I don't own or haven't read the book, often after reading something it may take a few other readings until I actually remember it! otherwise sometimes it's more interesting to ask on a list or forum. some people may also zip through and look at pictures, and then forget if they were skimming. though if I were to buy the book then maybe I could keep a bellatulum alive and flower a micranthum!


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## NYEric (Nov 6, 2009)

Or you could buy me a copy, send me your plants and have me bloom them!


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## JeanLux (Nov 7, 2009)

Lance, good point!!!!
I went so far creating me an excel sheet with parts of the content of the 1st part describing the species (temp, light, size, requir..), but confess that there are still some pages left to read!!!! Jean


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## paphjoint (Nov 7, 2009)

once you understand that Paph growing is not an exact science then you only need the books for id purposes.........


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## Bolero (Nov 7, 2009)

Lance,

Yes I have your book and I really do like it. I have read it cover to cover and the information specific to each species is very helpful as is all the cultural information. 

However, part of the reason I ask questions here is to be part of the community and to contribute something. I love participating in forums and even though I do refer to your book from time to time I also like asking questions of others.

Also, I have checked some temperature information in your book and I get some dispute from experienced growers over this as well. For example I believe some minimum temps can often be lower or higher than those listed in the book. So I am just checking to make sure I do the right thing, I enjoy it when you have responded to my posts in the past and it's also interesting hearing from alternative points of view.

For example I have people (experienced) here telling me I can grow bellatulum in this climate at a cooler level than you cite in your book. I am not saying the book is wrong but I will say that your book is one of many sources I use to make an informed decision. I hope that makes sense.

I am waiting for your cymbidium book as well........is it coming???

P.S. I note someone saying above that it does take a few reads to consolidate the information......I agree, I should have read the book more than once. I also agree with another post that growing orchids isn't an exact science and sometimes things can vary from the ideal and still work out.


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## bio_lover (Nov 7, 2009)

Its interesting to read your message above. If you don't mind, I would like to know the name of your book.


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## Bolero (Nov 7, 2009)

bio_lover said:


> Its interesting to read your message above. If you don't mind, I would like to know the name of your book.



The Paphiopedilum Grower's Manual by Lance Birk.

It's a great book.


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## bio_lover (Nov 7, 2009)

Thank you so much Lance Burke.


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## Lance Birk (Nov 7, 2009)

Interesting confession session!!!

I do appreciate your favorable comments about my book, and thanks. I also understand the realities of life and how we just have to read something for the 3rd time (at times) just to let it sink in. I've done that myself. And the comments about the variations of life and environments is certainly true, as are the exceptions to rules. Such as they are.

But I'm also wondering about ones self-confidence in their own ability to just plain understand what they see, in their own growing area. This really isn't rocket science, it's just plain science. We water: plants get wet. Then, how do they dry off? We give light: Is it too much or not enough? You can see it for yourself..... right? We give air: Is it enough or not enough? 

Seems easy....

We humans can learn. And that is the reason for my first question. A few posters here might just need a little confidence boost, so...... here it is!

But sorry Bolero, to the back of the class for you.........

It's BIRK.

.....On your belly and give me 50!


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## Bolero (Nov 7, 2009)

bio_lover said:


> Thank you so much Lance Burke.



Really unnecessary.


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## Bolero (Nov 7, 2009)

Lance Birk said:


> Interesting confession session!!!
> 
> I do appreciate your favorable comments about my book, and thanks. I also understand the realities of life and how we just have to read something for the 3rd time (at times) just to let it sink in. I've done that myself. And the comments about the variations of life and environments is certainly true, as are the exceptions to rules. Such as they are.
> 
> ...



Yes sorry about the spelling, I realised just after that I had made a mistake and have now corrected it.

You are right, I think to some extent it is about confidence in our own judgements. I think time growing them helps with that.


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## Rick (Nov 7, 2009)

I guess something else to discuss, is what constitutes success?

More are surviving than dying?

Overall low collection mortality rates?

Zero mortality?

100% of plants grow to flowering specimen plants?

Plants grow from seedling to flower in 3 years?

Every plant would recieve an AOS quality or cultural award?

I think the bulk of us are confident enough to say we are up to level 2, but many are pushing for greater levels of success, which I think requires experience, experimentation, and collaboration outside of reading texts. Maybe even some good luck (we can't control the weather, and can't control the genetics of our purchases). Much of growing is like driving a car. You have to be able to "read" the upcoming conditions and respond as you go. Beginning drivers can read all the text they want, but until they gain experience reading the observed conditions, they are not expert drivers.


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## cnycharles (Nov 7, 2009)

very good analogy. i've gotten to three, which I'm proud of, though that doesn't mean that some that haven't died are happy (eek), or that we give away all those that will die eventually if we don't pull the trigger now! things would be much better if the last few years weren't plagued by the creepy crawly things and it was easier to spray them or otherwise kill the bugs. when I was first in an orchid society, I took three plants I had to a club meeting. a well-known vendor remarked that I had very nice culture for my plants. it may have been, but until that point I had never had insects infest my plants. at some point not long after that they made their appearance and being at a loss and not being crazy or knowledgeable about what or how to spray, things went downhill. also having more plants means less time to scout or do what needs to be done when something is at issue...

there needs to be a 'mealy nuke-gun'


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 7, 2009)

Lance, I love your book and still refer to it frequently. But, in all fairness, you yourself stated (in a primulinum thread) that modern breeding has changed the species from the original collected forms....either through hidden or forgotten hybridizing, or simple line bred selection of traits. Our modern post CITES paphs may very well behave differently from their wild ancestors. (On a side note, it seems that I used to have better luck in the past with wild collected plants..my original venustum, while small, lasted maybe 20 years....the new ones I can't keep alive more than 2 years..and I strongly suspect that the insigne I have been growing since 1982 was from a collected plant.) Since most paph species are no longer like their wild progenitors, their culture is probably different also. Not to mention that all of us grow under different conditions....a windowsill in NYC is quite different from a shadehouse in California...or a greenhouse anywhere. I can do what I can to emulate proper growing conditions for parvis...but I'll have settle for delanatii being the only reliable one, while growers in the Pacific northwest find them all to be easy. Take care, Eric


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## Roth (Nov 7, 2009)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> Lance, I love your book and still refer to it frequently. But, in all fairness, you yourself stated (in a primulinum thread) that modern breeding has changed the species from the original collected forms....either through hidden or forgotten hybridizing, or simple line bred selection of traits. Our modern post CITES paphs may very well behave differently from their wild ancestors.



Lance book is extremely interesting. In fact in his potting mix chapter, he points out about two things, the use of sheet moss, and the use of sand in the potting mix, Interestingly ehough, sheet moss is far more successful than sphagnum, and the multiflorals love to have a bit of sand in their mix, the roots exactly follow the sandy areas, as Lance said.

Thus said, a lot of the species in the trade are still jungle collected, no one should be fooled to think that all plants are art propagated. emersonii, malipoense, armeniacum, micranthum, haynaldianum, most of the blooming size plants are jungle collected, cultivated plants. sangii, mastersianum... it is possible to name a lot.

Of course there are some sib self crosses sold, but some are maybe not truly from seed - like some of the micranthum as an example... and most of the 'generic' species are coming from the wild. a micranthum without proven parentage is from the wild. A blooming size mastersianum, sangii, violascens, zieckianum, etc... is from the wild. ciliolare, anitum, adductum, randsii... when they are blooming size they are 100% jungle collected, with a few exceptions - violascens has been marginally propagated, sangii as well, but the bulk of the trade is made of jungle plants.


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## Lance Birk (Nov 8, 2009)

Eric,

I believe all jungle collected plants have that "jungle vigor," something that stays with them for several years. You know what it is. I also believe that it often stays within the root zone until that next repotting, and then it usually seems to vanish. I think these orchids retain a Mycorrhiza but then the plant either rejects (kills) it or we otherwise lose it through ignorance of how to maintain it's presence.

But best practices of culture can then provide a climate and the opportunity for those plants to continue to prosper and to propagate. In that regard, a grower once told me that a "good grower is one who successfuly cultivates his plant for at least 5 years, and at the end of that time the plant is in better condition than when he got it." Seems like a good criteria to me.

I do not believe that the very fact of hybridization automatically will improve the sustainability of an orchid. It does, in some cases. But you yourself can make the comparison between one of those jungle-collected plants, and any one of your hybridized plants. I think you already have that answer

My paph book is all about culture and in the second half it details how to provide the techniques and the conditions for paphiopedilums. It was when those 1980s paph growers began to introduce the ideas from my book into their growing arena, that cattleyas, oncidiums, phalaenopsis and all the other genera of orchids suddenly began to respond positively under the new conditions of growing. This, to me, shows that it is more important to provide the proper conditions and techniques of growing, than it is to find "the EXACT' conditions for each and every different species of orchids.

Don't you agree?


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## Rick (Nov 8, 2009)

Sanderianum said:


> Thus said, a lot of the species in the trade are still jungle collected, no one should be fooled to think that all plants are art propagated. emersonii, malipoense, armeniacum, micranthum, haynaldianum, most of the blooming size plants are jungle collected, cultivated plants. sangii, mastersianum... it is possible to name a lot.



Blooming size plants start as seedlings, and take about 5 or so years to get to blooming size.

I have seen the flasks of emersonii, malipoense, armeniacum, micranthum, haynaldianum in the US purchased started seedlings from them and now 5 years later they are blooming size.

As an example I have a 3 growth emersonii that a purchased as a seedling from Orchid babies about 5 years ago that came out of a flask from Paphinatics. Similarly a stonei that I posted blooming pictures of this past spring. It's just about impossible to find a jungle collected rothchildianum in the US for sale, and they are considered inferior to the intraspecific crosses that are out there now. There are so many sanderianum seedlings on the market now that you can get NBS plants for about $100 now. And recently a forum member showed "compot flats" of blooming tigrinums. In the US seed propagation is not that big a deal, and a lot of people are raising seedlings in decent numbers.

The South Pacific stuff like sangii, wentworthianum, and masterianum is stuff tough to grow, and I don't see either a lot of seedlings or adult plants offered for sale.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 8, 2009)

Lance, I thoroughly agree....and Sanderianum- I certainly agree with what you say about the wild origins of many plants...but here in the US, many (obviously, not the newer species) species are available as seedlings...I know, because those are the only ones I can afford. My violascens and mastersianums were all small seedlings..and the violascens seedlings probably cost as much if not more than the collected plants I bought from Richard Topper 20 years ago (at least one as "papuanum"). They actually bloomed, or at least spiked for me...My volonteanums are seedlings (one is obviously a charlesworthii...you get these things with seedlings...)..so is my 3" wide emersonii...Parentage is rarely given, but a seedling is a seedling. Take care, Eric


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## joan (Nov 8, 2009)

What book are you talking about? The name is not mentioned anywhere I can see?


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## Roth (Nov 9, 2009)

Rick said:


> I have seen the flasks of emersonii, malipoense, armeniacum, micranthum, haynaldianum in the US purchased started seedlings from them and now 5 years later they are blooming size.



Definitely yes, but many sellers still offer precultivated jungle plants of micranthum, malipoense, armeniacum, emersonii... They are cheaper than any flask.



> There are so many sanderianum seedlings on the market now that you can get NBS plants for about $100 now. And recently a forum member showed "compot flats" of blooming tigrinums. In the US seed propagation is not that big a deal, and a lot of people are raising seedlings in decent numbers.



It comes to a big deal when a multigrowth jungle, precultivated sanderianum 2-3 growths is sold by the Taiwaneses for 80USD wholesale. Some customers will want that kind of plants...




Eric Muehlbauer said:


> Lance, I thoroughly agree....and Sanderianum- I certainly agree with what you say about the wild origins of many plants...but here in the US, many (obviously, not the newer species) species are available as seedlings...I know, because those are the only ones I can afford. My violascens and mastersianums were all small seedlings..and the violascens seedlings probably cost as much if not more than the collected plants I bought from Richard Topper 20 years ago (at least one as "papuanum"). They actually bloomed, or at least spiked for me...My volonteanums are seedlings (one is obviously a charlesworthii...you get these things with seedlings...)..so is my 3" wide emersonii...Parentage is rarely given, but a seedling is a seedling. Take care, Eric



Yes, there are hobbyists who grow from seed their plants to blooming size. But look at that one - the seller, who is on that forum, has not enough experience to know that those plants are jungle collected at all, and has been cheated by his supplier for sure, but I know it first hand, as I know his supplier, and the supplier of that supplier, and even some of the collectors of that supplier:

Wild-collected dayanum







Wild-collected volonteanum






Wild-collected ciliolare






Wild-collected sugiyamanum






Wild-collected stonei






more jungle stonei






More






Basically, the price of a jungle volonteanum - USD4 will always be cheaper than flasking, growing for 2-5 years, etc... A jungle stonei sells at present time in Malaysia for USD 2-4. Of course the flowers are crappy, but they are 'genuine' stonei... And anyway, I think that many Taiwanese stonei are not really stonei...

Most blooming size mastersianum in the US offered for sale are wild, cultivated plants. Taiwan sells precultivated jungle mastersianum for USD6. Of course there are flasks of many, if not most species, but I have yet to see a company offering blooming size, seed-grown volonteanum so far. The seedlings of that kind of species are sold as young plant most of the time, as they are quite a lot in demand... So most growers do not have blooming size volonteanum from seed to offer.


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## NYEric (Nov 9, 2009)

Does "wild collected" mean damaging to wild or illegal or just possibly prone to disease?


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 9, 2009)

Sanderianum- what do you mean by "precultivated"? Do you mean a wild collected plant that has grown and been divided? Technically, those would be OK by CITES (assuming that the parent was collected and originally propagated in its country of origin...theoretically, that is..not like its likely to be provable). Also, having grown on would allow the plant to adapt to cultivation. To most of us, wild collected means dug up, shipped out, potted up. To me, a plant that has been grown long enough to divide is a propagated plant..I would consider it "wild", or "natural", but its still propagated. Take care, Eric


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## Jimsox (Nov 9, 2009)

What Book?!?!?!?!?!???


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## kentuckiense (Nov 9, 2009)

For those that do not know what book Lance wrote:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=lance+birk+book

oke:


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## cnycharles (Nov 9, 2009)

funny how when I was looking for a used copy of the second version and did a search, one vendor I think had new ones for $65, and used ones listed for over $100!


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## nikv (Nov 10, 2009)

I've had this book for longer than I can remember. One of the first books on orchids that I've purchased. It has a copyright date of 1983. Couldn't find anything to identify which edition it is. Anyone know? It's a very good book. My copy has a brown cover with a rothschildianum drawing on the cover.


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## paphioboy (Nov 10, 2009)

Sanderianum, the stonei in the photos are obviously jungle collected. The root system is so damaged that it can fit inside that small pot. Well cultivated stonei has quite extensive roots.. But I can't be sure about the barbata species that you have shown above (sugiyamanum and dayanum)..


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## Rick (Nov 10, 2009)

paphioboy said:


> Sanderianum, the stonei in the photos are obviously jungle collected. The root system is so damaged that it can fit inside that small pot. Well cultivated stonei has quite extensive roots.. But I can't be sure about the barbata species that you have shown above (sugiyamanum and dayanum)..



Not necessarily Paphioboy.

The blooming stonei that I posted this spring (with a 30 inch leaf span) is in a 2" pot. The pot is crammed with roots, but many of my big multiflorals seem happy to be that underpotted. I raised it from seedling (Paphinatics source via Orchid Babies) to bloom in 4 years.

I also have a couple of Matt Gores stoneis'. I can tell they were divisions of larger plants and I know they were Asian imports. They were a bit shocky at first but they are adding growths now and looking good. I can probably rest assured that they are stoneis based on Sanderianums knowledge of the situation. I also got a couple of his ciliolare that are also doing well, but they do not appear to be divisions from bigger plants, although they were also Asian imports.

I sent pollen to SlipperKing from my last ciliolare blooming, so we should be able to get a few seedlings moving to US hobbyists in a few years.


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## Bolero (Nov 10, 2009)

Yes I agree with you completely. Can you explain that to my wife? I need a heated hot house out in the backyard as soon as possible.............


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## Roth (Nov 10, 2009)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> Sanderianum- what do you mean by "precultivated"? Do you mean a wild collected plant that has grown and been divided? Technically, those would be OK by CITES (assuming that the parent was collected and originally propagated in its country of origin...theoretically, that is..not like its likely to be provable). Also, having grown on would allow the plant to adapt to cultivation. To most of us, wild collected means dug up, shipped out, potted up. To me, a plant that has been grown long enough to divide is a propagated plant..I would consider it "wild", or "natural", but its still propagated. Take care, Eric



Yes, precultivated means ,as an example for the sugiyamanum, they have been collected from the wild, put in a pot for some weeks or 2-4 months, they made 1 leaf and they are sold. Of course it is not OK by the CITES at all, because each plant is a plant from the jungle, there is no division or real propagation.

The volonteanum as an example have been collected straight out of the jungle, the ciliolare have been collected, they made 2 leaves, and they were sold. 

NYEric, yes it means every single of those plants is coming from the wild by itself, not divided or otherwise. The wholesaler is located in Johore, but the exporter is much further north. The stonei are very typical of fresh jungle plants as well. Many people think of jungle collected plants as a big mess with all broken roots and leaves, but in fact, the exporters browse through the fresh batches, and choose plants that look not too damaged, such as the stonei or the volonteanum. The really damaged plants end up in the garbage, for three reasons. First one, a damaged one will take years to restart and look nice again, second, most of the exporters do not know how to grow them, third, the fresh plants are so cheap that it is not even interesting to buy a pot to pot them.

The other problem being that those plants are not 'adapted to cultivation' at all. The real diseases and hard time for a wild collected paph is around 6 months to a year. That's why they sell them as fresh from the jungle, or precultivated 2-4 months. Keeping them 1 year without very careful, proper care, would mean losses up to 90%.

As for the stonei, they are usually collected in big clumps, and divided/cut to fit the orders. The exporters have a standard size, like 2 growths plants, so they cut accordingly the fresh plants. If you are lucky and they are extrafresh, they can restart without too much trouble. If they have been stored improperly for a couple weeks, they will be gone within a year or two maximum.

The point is not to criticize that plants are still wild collected - in fact some species are so common in the wild, like sanderianum, that it's nearly unbelievable. They are there by the dozen of thousands, collected by the thousands, but still many colonies... The point is to inform clearly, and show how thew things are really doing. Sugiyamanum is far more rare than sanderianum or rothschildianum in the wild. Furthermore a jungle plant has to be grown in a different way from a seedgrown plant for some years, that's why the buyer must know the origin of the plants he buys...

The last point is that the plants are selected to be crappy. As for ciliolare, there is a quite common strain called ciliolare gigantea. The plants are 40-50 leafspan, blooms in the 12-15 cm. Really gorgeous. In fact they are so big that Golamco when he described paph xMindanaense though they were superbiens. 

Randsii exists as randsii gigantea, 2m leafspan plants, 10-18 flowers on a stem. Some sanderianun are over 1.2m leafspan. There are jungle rothschildianum that have 6-7 40 cm flowers and are bigger than an average kolopakingii.... Think of using one of those plants to replace Rex in the world famous Rex x Mt Millais cross, and clearly RxMM would become just as average as Charles E x Borneo is right now...

But those plants will never be exported from Malaysia, Philippines... They take medium to small sized plants, because there are less leaf markings than the big ones, they dehydrate within some months, where a very large randsii would dry up in a couple of weeks, so they can be stored awaiting the customer... The collectors always charge by bag, and one bag would have around 400-600 ciliolare medium size, but only 100-200 ciliolare giant strain. For roth, a bag would be 120 plants of the medium size, but only 10-15 of the giant strain.

If there were real growers of paphs in Malaysia and Philippines - with 1-2 notable exceptions in Malaysia, one exports, the other one not... - they would force the collector to take some of those amazing plants, and propagate specimens that would be completely mind-blowing.

By the way, watch those ciliolare for brevipalpus mites. The asian grower of those ciliolare has a lot of spidermites in his place, and that's a imidacloprid-boosted strain of brevipalpus, nasty to kill...


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## paphioboy (Nov 10, 2009)

> Not necessarily Paphioboy.
> 
> The blooming stonei that I posted this spring (with a 30 inch leaf span) is in a 2" pot. The pot is crammed with roots, but many of my big multiflorals seem happy to be that underpotted. I raised it from seedling (Paphinatics source via Orchid Babies) to bloom in 4 years.



Oh, yes Rick.. I remember your plant.. Have you repotted it yet..?  and not to mention Dr Orchid's multi paphs, which always bloom in small pots. But apart from root mass, I think its quite clear that those stonei shown above are wild collected.. Wild plants often have reddish brown markings and even lichens growing on their leaves, something that you don't find on nursery-grown plants.. 

Sanderianum, I know that Hourai orchids in Malaysia genuinely propagates paphs from seed and they export as well.. Were you referring to them..?


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## etex (Nov 11, 2009)

Lance's book is on the way to my house. Can't wait to get it! I sounds awesome! It will be a well read book, I can tell! Very reasonably priced, too.


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## Roth (Nov 12, 2009)

paphioboy said:


> Oh, yes Rick.. I remember your plant.. Have you repotted it yet..?  and not to mention Dr Orchid's multi paphs, which always bloom in small pots. But apart from root mass, I think its quite clear that those stonei shown above are wild collected.. Wild plants often have reddish brown markings and even lichens growing on their leaves, something that you don't find on nursery-grown plants..
> 
> Sanderianum, I know that Hourai orchids in Malaysia genuinely propagates paphs from seed and they export as well.. Were you referring to them..?



Yes Hourai propagates quite a fair share of their offer of paphs. So far they are the only one to do it in Malaysia. The remaining is close to none...


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## Rick (Nov 14, 2009)

Sanderianum said:


> Yes Hourai propagates quite a fair share of their offer of paphs. So far they are the only one to do it in Malaysia. The remaining is close to none...




Do they sell to any US or European vendors?


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## paphioboy (Nov 15, 2009)

Rick, Hourai does do international shows. I'll pm you their e-mail address.


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## Pete (Nov 16, 2009)

hey lance
love the book. i always reference it. i agree with more or less everything in it and my cultural practices are only slightly varied..


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## valenzino (Nov 16, 2009)

Sanderianum said:


> Yes Hourai propagates quite a fair share of their offer of paphs. So far they are the only one to do it in Malaysia. The remaining is close to none...



I work often with Houray and can confirm that they are the only nursery in Malaysia that really propagate paph species.

Another interesting basic fact is CITES.I have helped them with some strange CITES procedures some years ago.They wanted to talk and do a REAL CITES registered nursery.As I live near Switzerland I was able to go to Geneve and talk to central CITES officials.After several years Houray managed to be a Geneve Cites Registered Nursery for Malaysian species reproduction.
Go to this page and press malaysia on the left.

http://www.cites.org/common/reg/e_nu.html

If we look all this pages,we can see that there are nearly no other "REAL" authorized nursery in south east asia(2 in Myanmar and strangely really a lot in India).So In theory "NO ONE" can export App I plants legally from SEA than those nurseries...

Maybe Sanderianum or someone else can explain us how this works and how ex..thailand exports thousands Paphs with Cites but dont have an "authorized" nursery.

And also if an authorized nursey registered in this list,that have the authorization of CITES for reproduce the Vietnam species that are illegal in the usa,can export there legal plants and flasks...

Someone knows?


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