# Epiphytes



## Stone (Apr 1, 2013)

How many paphs have been found growing as epiphytes? So far I know of helenae, tigrinum, villosum, hermanii, concolor, lowii and varieties, sanderianum?, drudyii, parishii, venustum. I think I may have seen a pic of malipoense low on a tree somewhere?


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## Rick (Apr 1, 2013)

Did you mean druryii? I thought that one was a ground dweller. Much of its range doesn't have much in the way of trees to start with.


It's also news to me that helenae and hermanii (normally cliff dwellers) have been found in trees. But in some ways it may not be that much of a difference to them as longs as there is moss to root into.

I've read that a few barbatum species like appletonianum will occasionally be up around the base of trees, but generally not even to the lower branches.

I think randsii and anitum may have been found as low epiphytes.


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## Stone (Apr 2, 2013)

Rick said:


> > Did you mean druryii? I thought that one was a ground dweller. Much of its range doesn't have much in the way of trees to start with.
> 
> 
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> ...


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## Ray (Apr 2, 2013)

Maybe I take the definition too broadly, but I consider any orchid that does not routinely sink its roots into soil - and leaf litter on the forest floor is not "soil" - to be epiphytic.


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## Rick (Apr 2, 2013)

Ray said:


> Maybe I take the definition too broadly, but I consider any orchid that does not routinely sink its roots into soil - and leaf litter on the forest floor is not "soil" - to be epiphytic.



I think the dictionary definition is something that lives on other plants. So I don't think rocky cliffs count (technically).

But physiologically I think that orchids on cliff faces are very similar to those growing on trees.

Lowii (and sanderianum if it has true epiphyte documentation) on Borneo can be found growing on the same limestone cliffs together. But Lowii is commonly found in trees. It doesn't seem to care, (trees/cliffs). Ive seen pics of tigrinum in trees, but probably more of them on the ground on steep grade, or in moss/humus accumulations built up behind a tree trunk on steep grade.


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## Rick (Apr 2, 2013)

Stone said:


> Rick said:
> 
> 
> > Yes. I'm sure I read somewhere that it will occasionally be found on small Euphorbia trees with its roots exposed. But probably not the best of situations for it but it shows how tough they can be.
> ...


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Apr 2, 2013)

Well, maybe your question should be re-phrased, as "What paphs prefer to grow as epiphytes?" Given the right humidity, a lot of humus growing plants can probably grow as epiphytes...its where the seed ends up. But is that the ideal, preferred habitat? Or simply what it is capable of, if it has no other "choice"?


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## Stone (Apr 2, 2013)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> Well, maybe your question should be re-phrased, as "What paphs prefer to grow as epiphytes?" Given the right humidity, a lot of humus growing plants can probably grow as epiphytes...its where the seed ends up. But is that the ideal, preferred habitat? Or simply what it is capable of, if it has no other "choice"?



Yes obviously the limiting factor here is water and that was really the reason for the question. The availability of water to plants with some conection to the ground will be far greater than that for epiphytes regardless of how much moss or whatever has collected. ie: no rain no water. So it seems some species at least, has evolved enough to withstand the greater moisture fluctuation of an above-ground life. And you can see it in some of the leaves. Helenae for example has thick little leaves almost like a succulent. So does hermannii and my little sulivongii seedlings also have thick leaves. So even if some of these never leave the ground, they must definately come from vastly different ecosystems than a hookeri or a callosum. Just more small clues for cultivation?


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## Stone (Apr 2, 2013)

Ray said:


> Maybe I take the definition too broadly, but I consider any orchid that does not routinely sink its roots into soil - and leaf litter on the forest floor is not "soil" - to be epiphytic.



Yes so do I really. The only difference being that the tree dwellers must rely on rainfall only ( and fogs ) On the ground they can have seepage etc.


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## Rick (Apr 3, 2013)

Stone said:


> Yes so do I really. The only difference being that the tree dwellers must rely on rainfall only ( and fogs ) On the ground they can have seepage etc.



A cliff face can have seepage year round too. They have year round wet limestone cliffs in Tennessee, and it rains half as much as it does in the tropics. Tranlineanum is similar to helenae in plant habit, but the cliff faces its found on are almost constantly dripping. We haven't mentioned the cochlopetatums much, but Birk has them on almost constantly dripping wet rock faces.

Interestingly parishii (pretty much only found low in trees) has been tested for CAM or C3 metabolism, and was found to be C3 despite its thickish leaves. (The author specifically mentioned that this debunks the correlation of leaf thickness to water requirements). C3 plants require much more water than CAM and C4 plants. High air humidity is a requirement for a C3 plant since pores will be open during the day regardless of humidity/temperature.

I'm not sure that orchids can only uptake water through the roots in liquid form. But you will probably also find a correlation that if a paph is frequently found in a tree, it will probably have a lot more rainfall in that area than what you used to in Australia.


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## Rick (Apr 3, 2013)

Stone said:


> Helenae for example has thick little leaves almost like a succulent.



None of mine ever have. They have all been like small versions of barbigerum and henryanum.

Maybe you are underwatering yours.

My mexipedium had very thick/short succulent like leaves pre low K. Almost as thick as sedum. I thought this was normal given its xerophyticum title, but I watered it the same as everything else anyway. But since low K the leaves have almost doubled in length, and are no thicker now than the parishii leaves.


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## Rick (Apr 3, 2013)

Villosum (like parrishii) is almost strictly a tree dweller. These are big floppy leafed plants that don't have especially thick/tough leaves. Much thinner in texture than lowii and parishii.

I also don't think it appreciates having its water restricted any more than my barbata types.


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## Stone (Apr 3, 2013)

Rick said:


> > Interestingly parishii (pretty much only found low in trees) has been tested for CAM or C3 metabolism, and was found to be C3 despite its thickish leaves.
> 
> 
> Yes but parishii comes from a different climate/eco system than a Cattleya. The Catt has evolved to grow bare-root on a branch and will almost completely dry out in a matter of hours after rain. The parishii as you say comes from low down on the tree, probably with its roots covered in moss etc and also probably only has to live without (or much less) rain for a couple of months during the dry season not every day like the catt. So I'm not surprised that its C3 but I also that it has thick leaves.
> ...


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## Rick (Apr 3, 2013)

Stone said:


> Rick said:
> 
> 
> > Yes but parishii comes from a different climate/eco system than a Cattleya. The Catt has evolved to grow bare-root on a branch and will almost completely dry out in a matter of hours after rain. The parishii as you say comes from low down on the tree, probably with its roots covered in moss etc and also probably only has to live without (or much less) rain for a couple of months during the dry season not every day like the catt. So I'm not surprised that its C3 but I also that it has thick leaves.
> ...


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## Rick (Apr 3, 2013)

The Paph villosum case in Asia, may be comparable to the super long-petaled phrags in South America. Often found low in trees. Leaves are comparable in thickness to villosum too.

But aggreed most Catts are found either much more exposed (crowns of trees, or sparse trees) and more severe wet/dry systems.

What a lot of C3 plants do in times of drought is just drop leaves, and live on stored root water (unless they have something like pseudo bulbs).


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Apr 3, 2013)

My current helenae has thick leaves, but all my previous helenae's had thinner leaves, pretty much like barbigerum.


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## Stone (Apr 4, 2013)

Rick said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > > Doesn't this contradict what you just said about paphs in trees not getting water after rain regardless of how much moss/mulch has built up around the roots.
> ...


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## Stone (Apr 4, 2013)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> My current helenae has thick leaves, but all my previous helenae's had thinner leaves, pretty much like barbigerum.



I only have 3 seedlings (although I think one is going to flower soon:clap and all from the same flask so I can only use these as examples.


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