# How much improvement is likely in roths future bloom?



## Tony (Feb 25, 2022)

My first bloom roths are starting to open and I'm starting to consider what is worth keeping and what isn't. This one has two major flaws in my eyes, narrow sepals and droopy petals. Are either likely to improve enough to make it worth several more years of taking up bench space or would it be better to cull it now?


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## Linus_Cello (Feb 25, 2022)

If it blooms (easily), no?


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## Tony (Feb 25, 2022)

Linus_Cello said:


> If it blooms (easily), no?



An easy bloomer is no good to me if it's a mediocre flower every time.


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## TyroneGenade (Feb 25, 2022)

You can send you rejects to me to cull. I am happy with less than perfect easy bloomers -- that assumes they survive my care.


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## Duck Slipper (Feb 25, 2022)

I’m not sure that culling on the first bloom would be good to do…So the petals are a little droopy? 
How many flowers on first bloom? Could be a considerable change on second, third blooming.


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## Tony (Feb 25, 2022)

Only two flowers, but I'm not worried about that. Between the cold, dark winter we had and me not being able to keep up with feeding as well as I should have last summer my flower counts are low on everything this year. I'm just wondering if it could improve enough to justify several more years in my greenhouse or if it is likely to bloom again with a better count but still have droopy petals and narrow sepals.


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## Ozpaph (Feb 26, 2022)

Id cull. Never going to be a superior flower.


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## BrucherT (Feb 26, 2022)

Tony said:


> Only two flowers, but I'm not worried about that. Between the cold, dark winter we had and me not being able to keep up with feeding as well as I should have last summer my flower counts are low on everything this year. I'm just wondering if it could improve enough to justify several more years in my greenhouse or if it is likely to bloom again with a better count but still have droopy petals and narrow sepals.


I say you never know. You can’t know. You don’t list any parentage of your plants here. You admit that your culture was subpar, by your own standards, so blaming the results on the plants doesn’t seem fair. I hope that by “cull,” you mean give away or sell. An easy-blooming Roth is not to be sneezed at and those “droopy” laterals presumably preserve a wild trait that allows them easily to shed rain.


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## Tony (Feb 26, 2022)

BrucherT said:


> I say you never know. You can’t know. You don’t list any parentage of your plants here. You admit that your culture was subpar, by your own standards, so blaming the results on the plants doesn’t seem fair. I hope that by “cull,” you mean give away or sell. An easy-blooming Roth is not to be sneezed at and those “droopy” laterals presumably preserve a wild trait that allows them easily to shed rain.



In my eyes parentage only matters before a bloom, to give you an idea of the potential a seedling has. Once it blooms it is good or it is not, a turd from two FCC parents is still a turd. In any case the cross is 'New Horizon' × 'Raptor'. I posted to get some feedback from serious growers who are more experienced in seeing roths mature over time, I don't have a problem blooming them and I have at least 50 more roths and hundreds of other plants so if it's not likely to improve enough to justify its bench space then it needs to go. "It blooms" might be good enough for the windowsill crowd but I'm trying to build a quality collection.


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## Justin (Feb 26, 2022)

Nice roth, but if you are looking for something in the awardable realm, I would move on from this one.

I have a few seedlings left from a flask of this cross, but they are a few years away.


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## emydura (Feb 26, 2022)

I would cull too. It has a lot of flaws as you say. The colour is also average and the petals are very thin. Unfortunately a lot of these things are not going to improve much in future. Given you have so many roth's coming through, I don't think it is worth pursuing. 

This cross is proving to be disappointing. Of the flowers I have seen, the dark colour of raptor is just not coming through. The flowers seem to be dominated by 'New Horizon' but not in a good way.

I wonder if the petals are droopy because the humidity was low and it had been very hot. That happens with mine in such conditions. They normally look best in the early morning.


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## Tony (Feb 26, 2022)

emydura said:


> I would cull too. It has a lot of flaws as you say. The colour is also average and the petals are very thin. Unfortunately a lot of these things are not going to improve much in future. Given you have so many roth's coming through, I don't think it is worth pursuing.
> 
> This cross is proving to be disappointing. Of the flowers I have seen, the dark colour of raptor is just not coming through. The flowers seem to be dominated by 'New Horizon's but not in a good way.
> 
> I wonder if the petals are droopy because the humidity was low and it had been very hot. That happens with mine in such conditions. They normally look best in the early morning.



I have two of the cross and the second holds its petals well compared to the first so I doubt it's environmental. Both are dominated by 'New Horizon' as you've said, the second I'll give another chance to see how it does on a more mature plant. It will probably end up being a future cull as well but it seems to have more potential than the first.


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## Tony (Feb 26, 2022)

My favorite so far is one I didn't have particularly high expectations for, ('Jungle Select' × 'Atlantis') × '426'. I picked up two on the cheap a couple of years ago just for the hell of it. The only parent I could find a record of is Atlantis, an SM/TPS from almost 20 years ago but I love the color and proportions. The sibling is a few weeks behind and I'm curious now to see how it turns out.


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## emydura (Feb 26, 2022)

Tony said:


> I have two of the cross and the second holds its petals well compared to the first so I doubt it's environmental. Both are dominated by 'New Horizon' as you've said, the second I'll give another chance to see how it does on a more mature plant. It will probably end up being a future cull as well but it seems to have more potential than the first.



Yes, a bit better but still very consistent with how this cross is turning out. It is almost hard to believe Raptor could be a parent in these seedlings. It just goes to show, that even with the very best breeding, you have to flower a lot to get a good one. And some crosses, that include very good parents, just don't seem to produce quality seedlings.

Here is raptor.


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## emydura (Feb 26, 2022)

Tony said:


> My favorite so far is one I didn't have particularly high expectations for, ('Jungle Select' × 'Atlantis') × '426'. I picked up two on the cheap a couple of years ago just for the hell of it. The only parent I could find a record of is Atlantis, an SM/TPS from almost 20 years ago but I love the color and proportions. The sibling is a few weeks behind and I'm curious now to see how it turns out.



That one is nicer. Better colour and a nicer dorsal.


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## Ozpaph (Feb 26, 2022)

A bit better.
Not sure how it could be a jungle select - I think they've been protected for ? 50yrs?


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## Tony (Feb 26, 2022)

Ozpaph said:


> A bit better.
> Not sure how it could be a jungle select - I think they've been protected for ? 50yrs?



There are a number of ex-collected roths in cultivation, including important breeding clones like 'Mont Milais' and 'Borneo'.


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## tnyr5 (Feb 26, 2022)

Size, flower count, and segment width will improve with age, but a dud will always be a dud. These are big plants; be ruthless in your culling.


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## kiwi (Feb 26, 2022)

I flowered half a dozen of this cross this past spring and they were among some of the best. Sometimes you just get lucky.


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## Ozpaph (Feb 27, 2022)

Tony said:


> There are a number of ex-collected roths in cultivation, including important breeding clones like 'Mont Milais' and 'Borneo'.


 Yes, but "Jungle Select" wasnt one of them.


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## emydura (Feb 27, 2022)

Ozpaph said:


> Yes, but "Jungle Select" wasnt one of them.



What is the background of this cross? Taiwanese?


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## Tony (Feb 27, 2022)

emydura said:


> What is the background of this cross? Taiwanese?



That's what I assume but I couldn't say for sure, I got them from a US reseller.


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