# K-Lite Trial



## Ray (Dec 17, 2011)

Time to work out specifics.

Looks like we're about to see a 13-1-1-10Ca-4Mg test product, meaning it should be diluted to 0.028g/gallon per desired ppm N

One pound, therefore, will result in 1.62143 gallons of final solution per ppm N. so, for example:

125 ppm N = 3.5g/gal - 130 gallons of final solution per pound of powder
100 ppm N = 2.8g/gal - 162 gallons
75 ppm N = 2.1g/gal - 216 gallons
50 ppm N = 1.4g/gal - 324 gallons

So, based upon those concentrations and your individual usage rate, estimate how much you'd like from this first bag. I'd like to "share the wealth" with as many as want to be serious about this, and we can always reorder, so please be conservative in your estimate, and reply with the desired amount. If we only get a handful of takers, we might expand it, but if we get 100 takers, we're going to have to refuse some...

My intent will be to package it in 2# screw-top jars, so that will be a minimum order to participate. If you expect to use it all at once, I'll heat-seal it in a plastic bag, instead, allowing me to chop $1.50 (my cost for the jar & lid) off of the price.

We're getting a break on the pricing for this first bag, so it'll be no more expensive than the standard MSU fertilizer, although I won't know the actual pricing until I get the bill.

As I get your responses, I'll post a cumulative list. Rick & I get first "dibs" - it's his "baby", and I'm doing all the work.


----------



## keithrs (Dec 17, 2011)

1 pound in a sealed bag please

Also thanks Ray for doing all the "ground" work!


----------



## cnycharles (Dec 17, 2011)

i'll try a half-pound, that will leave some for others. you can put it into a plastic bag for me, and i'll just drop it into a zip-lock bag or snap-top yogurt container.

oh, if a pound is the smallest size then i'll do a pound though a smaller bag is fine for me (unless there aren't enough people to use a whole bag then i'll go for the pound)


----------



## Eric Muehlbauer (Dec 17, 2011)

I'll go for a jar!


----------



## yakmanq (Dec 17, 2011)

2 lbs. for me, thanks Ray


----------



## fibre (Dec 17, 2011)

US only? Otherwise I would be interested in one pound...


----------



## jtrmd (Dec 17, 2011)

I would be interested in some probably 2-3lbs and the heat sealed bag would be great


----------



## SlipperFan (Dec 17, 2011)

Will this product have micro-nutrients, Ray? If so, do you know what?


----------



## keithrs (Dec 17, 2011)

I believe it has the same micros as msu


----------



## Jim Toomey (Dec 17, 2011)

2 pounds, or more (6#) if you have that much available.
I'd like to mix it up all at once in a barrel for the Dosatron
Thanks Ray,
Jim T


----------



## NYEric (Dec 17, 2011)

How many grams to a table spoon? Trying to figure out a 4 week/ fertilize once per week trial.


----------



## Ray (Dec 18, 2011)

fibre said:


> US only? Otherwise I would be interested in one pound...


I have no problem with shipping internationally - check usps.com for the shipping cost of a small, flat rate box.

What I'm more interested in is a serious test. Not just a bunch of folks "giving it a shot".

I have no idea of the homogeneity of the product - the Greencare products are usually made with large-scale users in mind - so am wary of half- or one-pound requests. Not to mention you are asking me to do a lot more labor that way.

Eric, I also have no idea what the mass/volume relationship is.

Dot, I posted Bill's complete formula proposal - I think in the original K-Lite thread.


----------



## Rick (Dec 18, 2011)

Ray

One to two pounds would keep me busy for a year, but I have a few folks in our Orchid society interested so if we come up short I could probably take 5 lbs and distribute down here.

What is the aprox cost per lb for break even?

I'm presently getting MSU from Roberts, and 5lb goes for $20 from Wayne. I would have no problems with this.


----------



## Rick (Dec 18, 2011)

Ray said:


> What I'm more interested in is a serious test. Not just a bunch of folks "giving it a shot".



To this end, everyone trying this needs to keep track of things like:
1) frequency of feed rate.
2) what water is used to make it up in (knowledge of the 7 major ions would be ideal).
3) supplemental additives (and frequency of use of these).
4) Type of potting mix.


This fertilizer is really being produced as a complete alternative to the standard MSU Pure Water. But talking to lots of other growers (outside of ST) indicates that very few growers use "pure water" or no other supplements even when using MSU Pure Water fert.

So I wouldn't expect everyone to trial this fert empirically, but it will be a better "ground proofing" if everyone keeps track of some of the more important variables.


----------



## jtrmd (Dec 18, 2011)

2lbs would last me close to a year also.


----------



## Ray (Dec 18, 2011)

Rick said:


> Ray
> 
> One to two pounds would keep me busy for a year, but I have a few folks in our Orchid society interested so if we come up short I could probably take 5 lbs and distribute down here.
> 
> ...


I won't know the actual final cost until I see the shipping costs to me, but Bill has given us a break for this trial, so I'm guessing that we're looking at about the $4/lb level - maybe less - in sealed plastic bags. If you want it in a resealable container, then I'll have to go with 2# by default, adding $1.50 per jar & lid.


----------



## Brabantia (Dec 18, 2011)

Just for my information: when you say 10 Ca and 4 Mg is it 10% CaO or 10% Ca and 4% MgO or 4% Mg? Is the nitrogen content 100% nitrate or a little bit ammonium?


----------



## keithrs (Dec 18, 2011)

I was being conservative with the amount of fertilizer I needed, Trying to let everyone who wanted to join in be apart of this. I take more if needed.

Personally, I think one pound( or year supply) is most one would need to determine if this regimen is worth wild. Yes, it may be more work but on the other hand, the more input the better idea we will get.

I would think homogeneity would be a problem no matter if it 1/2 lbs or 10 lbs if the source(#25 bag) is not homogenized to start.

Should we really use additives in this first trial? I think one could mask potential problems. 

How strict should we be on keeping records? Should we issue a spread sheet?


----------



## keithrs (Dec 18, 2011)

Brabantia said:


> Just for my information: when you say 10 Ca and 4 Mg is it 10% CaO or 10% Ca and 4% MgO or 4% Mg? Is the nitrogen content 100% nitrate or a little bit ammonium?



Check out the other "K lite" thread....


----------



## gonewild (Dec 18, 2011)

NYEric said:


> How many grams to a table spoon? Trying to figure out a 4 week/ fertilize once per week trial.



General rule of thumb is:
1 tablespoon of salt weighs 1 ounce (approx.).
1ounce = 28 grams

If you assume 16 tablespoons will weigh 1 pound you will be close.


----------



## Justin (Dec 18, 2011)

I already invested in 5 lb of MSU and 5 of Calcium Nitrate, which is going to last me quite some time...I'll have to sit back and watch the results of you all.


----------



## Brabantia (Dec 18, 2011)

keithrs said:


> Check out the other "K lite" thread....


Ups! If read well the thread mentioned and after some computations it is 10% Ca and 4% Mg.


----------



## Ray (Dec 18, 2011)

So far, this is what I've got:

Rick - 2 or 5
Ray - 2 or 4
Ross - 2
Eric M - 2 jar
yakmanq - 2 jar
jtrmd - 2 or 3
Jim T - 2 or 6
cnycharles - 0.5

That's 14.5# minimum, 24.5# max.

I think that, if we're are limited, we should allow participants in this forum to take precedence over others. Is that OK?


----------



## Rick (Dec 18, 2011)

Ray said:


> That's 14.5# minimum, 24.5# max.
> 
> I think that, if we're are limited, we should allow participants in this forum to take precedence over others. Is that OK?



That would be ideal for me Ray


----------



## Rick (Dec 18, 2011)

keithrs said:


> Should we really use additives in this first trial? I think one could mask potential problems.
> 
> How strict should we be on keeping records? Should we issue a spread sheet?



Probably two ways to look at your first question. Ideally the answer is yes, but since this is a bit more of a Beta test under real life hobby conditions, I wouldn't necessarily expect everyone to give up their personal creative experimenting.

Same for records. It's gotta be convenient or records fall apart. I already put in 40++ hours getting paid for producing data, but despite my personal knowledge and experience of the importance of good record keeping it's just about all I can manage in my hobby time to keep up with this forum (as a form of documentation).

So for my orchid growing, I try to put together something on a strict ritualistic schedule, and then document the start date (somewhere that I can find at a later date), and then just do it until something changes. 

Certainly with plants we are talking months and years rather than hours and days, so you would think it wouldn't kill me (or anyone else trying this) to use a log book and keep notes, but I'm sure I'll be the first one to slob out on this, and go by memory and intuition.


----------



## gonewild (Dec 18, 2011)

Better than records is just generally keeping track of what you do and do it on a regular basis or schedule. Use the K-lite fertilizer instead of your regular fertilizer and see what happens. If you all of a sudden notice that your plants look better, then the new fertilizer is effective. If you don't really notice a change then it has not made enough difference for a short test to determine anything.


----------



## jtrmd (Dec 18, 2011)

gonewild said:


> Better than records is just generally keeping track of what you do and do it on a regular basis or schedule. Use the K-lite fertilizer instead of your regular fertilizer and see what happens. If you all of a sudden notice that your plants look better, then the new fertilizer is effective. If you don't really notice a change then it has not made enough difference for a short test to determine anything.






That's what I was thinking.i use city water so the test results for that are always on the public works website.I keep tabs on when I feet already due to memory problems.everything but the mounted plants are in bark.i will just have to figure out what rate I would like to use.I would love to find something else that works besides what I use now.its getting harder to get the jacks 20-10-20 peat lite.


----------



## Mike (Dec 18, 2011)

Hi all, new to the forum, but have been actively reading the k-lite thread. I would be in for 2 lbs. I have been using MSU exclusively and getting ready to put in an RO system so i should be able to setup a controlled environment to keep track of all the variables. I have a couple hundred paphs (mostly seedlings) and enough mature plants to compare results as well. Let me know what other info you need from me to get going.

Mike


----------



## keithrs (Dec 18, 2011)

Rick said:


> Probably two ways to look at your first question. Ideally the answer is yes, but since this is a bit more of a Beta test under real life hobby conditions, I wouldn't necessarily expect everyone to give up their personal creative experimenting.



Isn't the point of this "experiment" to see how this fertilizer works? Hows one going to know the real results if one is adding kelp, rooting hormones, or what ever else one uses? 



> Same for records. It's gotta be convenient or records fall apart. I already put in 40++ hours getting paid for producing data, but despite my personal knowledge and experience of the importance of good record keeping it's just about all I can manage in my hobby time to keep up with this forum (as a form of documentation).



Agreed but records are important for others and yourself..... I guess weekly up date on a thread may work. 




> Certainly with plants we are talking months and years rather than hours and days, so you would think it wouldn't kill me (or anyone else trying this) to use a log book and keep notes, but I'm sure I'll be the first one to slob out on this, and go by memory and intuition.



This is why people involved need a year supply


----------



## keithrs (Dec 18, 2011)

gonewild said:


> Better than records is just generally keeping track of what you do and do it on a regular basis or schedule. Use the K-lite fertilizer instead of your regular fertilizer and see what happens. If you all of a sudden notice that your plants look better, then the new fertilizer is effective. If you don't really notice a change then it has not made enough difference for a short test to determine anything.



Isn't that part of recording records?


----------



## gonewild (Dec 18, 2011)

keithrs said:


> Isn't the point of this "experiment" to see how this fertilizer works? Hows one going to know the real results if one is adding kelp, rooting hormones, or what ever else one uses?



The major point is to see how the low potassium levels effect growth. So ideally you would just substitute this formula for your base formula that you have been using. Continue to add your extras. The results you see will be because of the low potassium level.



> Agreed but records are important for others and yourself..... I guess weekly up date on a thread may work.



Records are good but.... Even without records you will have an opinion whether or not you see an improvement of growth or less disease problems. That overall opinion everyone forms is the result, regardless of what is in recorded records.




> This is why people involved need a year supply



I think Rick said he noticed "results" in a few months time? Rick?

A possible obstacle to seeing results is that your media that is in the pots already may me overdosed with potassium already. That may slow down the quickness of seeing any results.


----------



## keithrs (Dec 18, 2011)

Ray said:


> So far, this is what I've got:
> 
> Rick - 2 or 5
> Ray - 2 or 4
> ...



So you going on min or max?

I'll take 2 lbs if theres room.


----------



## gonewild (Dec 18, 2011)

keithrs said:


> Isn't that part of recording records?



Sure, but folks here are mostly hobbyists and may not be so good at keeping good records. Incomplete records are not of much value and can actually be misleading. This experiment (test) is more like a clinical trial where a bunch of people are given a new drug and sent home to take the doses and then see if they are cured after some time. Maybe Ray should make a percentage of "placebo" bags up to send to random experimenters? :evil: Just kidding.

It would be a good idea to keep records in a thread on the forum. Each user could state what their usage plan is that they intend to do. Then when they see something they think might be reportable they could post. Pictures of plants at the beginning would be enjoyed by readers as well as would progress pictures.


----------



## keithrs (Dec 18, 2011)

gonewild said:


> The major point is to see how the low potassium levels effect growth. So ideally you would just substitute this formula for your base formula that you have been using. Continue to add your extras. The results you see will be because of the low potassium level.


I thought we where testing both?!?!?! 



> Records are good but.... Even without records you will have an opinion whether or not you see an improvement of growth or less disease problems. That overall opinion everyone forms is the result, regardless of what is in recorded records.


True




> I think Rick said he noticed "results" in a few months time? Rick?
> 
> A possible obstacle to seeing results is that your media that is in the pots already may me overdosed with potassium already. That may slow down the quickness of seeing any results.



He said in a few post back that it would take months and years. You may see result in a few months but you also need to see results a year from now.


----------



## gonewild (Dec 18, 2011)

keithrs said:


> I thought we where testing both?!?!?!



If you use both at the same time on different plants you will be testing both!
Most people that will be trying the k-lite already have experience and know how their plants are growing. When they change to the new formula and start seeing plants growing differently (hope better) they can simply compare what the remember they used to look like. Not very scientific but if a % of the users report positive results then we can assume the formula was effective. Then likely many people will do some formal tests with control groups and good records.




> He said in a few post back that it would take months and years. You may see result in a few months but you also need to see results a year from now.



Long term results will take years. But if in a few months you start seeing plants produce more growths than before or notice that plants are not rotting anymore then the experiment is final and the formula is a success.


----------



## Jim Toomey (Dec 18, 2011)

Anyone willing to take photos of at least some of their plants that include a ruler?


----------



## SlipperFan (Dec 18, 2011)

Ray said:


> ...
> Dot, I posted Bill's complete formula proposal - I think in the original K-Lite thread.


Yes -- I just went through the whole thread and found this:
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=328370&postcount=202

I'd love to join in getting some of this now, but I have nearly 1/2 bag of MSU rain water formula that I'm trying to proportion with Cal/Mag. I'll be very interested in watching how all of you do with this formula.


----------



## emydura (Dec 18, 2011)

On larger plants you will easily be able to compare the size of the new growths against older previously flowered growths.


----------



## Eric Muehlbauer (Dec 18, 2011)

Just to be clear....I'm down for 1 2lb jar, not 2 of them? I'm not that good at math...so I've just generally been using 1 tspn/gal MSU for catts, Vanda's, Cyms, and strap leafed paphs.....1/2 tspn/gal for the rest of my paphs, pleuro's, species phrags, and bulbo's....successfully. Can I keep the same dosing with this formula?


----------



## Ray (Dec 18, 2011)

Keith, I'm sorry. When going from a handwritten tally to typed, I left you out. You originally asked for 1#, but 2 seems fine.


----------



## Rick (Dec 18, 2011)

keithrs said:


> I thought we where testing both?!?!?!
> 
> 
> True
> ...




You may actually see some effects (like changes in leaf color) in just a week or so. Plants with healthy root systems (especially mounted plants) may really jumpstart after just a few feedings ( a month??). As mentioned you may be purging K from older potting mixes and not see much of anything for a few months. Ultimately we need to be watching for true deficiencies that may take at least 1 full year if not a few years. Do big adult plants quit blooming and just keep adding growths?? Seed pods crapping out?? 

The majority of problems I feel I identified from the high K system are more manifest over multiple years rather than short term acute toxicity problems of less than a few months. So this is really a long haul program.


Getting back to records, try to keep this fun, because of this gets tedious, then records go down the tubes. Over detailed records can be just as unhelpful as incomplete. I think some of our best options are going to be before and after pictures. So pick a few of your worst plants and photograph them now (with some scale if handy).

Yes perfect experiments would control just a single or few variables. But since we are comparing to a very uncontrolled population already, Lance is looking at this about the same as I see it. 

Everybody uses fertilizers in unique ways already. So rather than trying to understand this down to the elemental level, we are black boxing everything else we do, and just reduce the K to see what happens for gross effects.


----------



## keithrs (Dec 19, 2011)

Ray said:


> Keith, I'm sorry. When going from a handwritten tally to typed, I left you out. You originally asked for 1#, but 2 seems fine.



No problem....

Yes.... Like I mentioned... I was trying to "share the wealth" and I still will if others want to join..... I'll just use it on fewer select plants.

Rick,Ray,Gonewild..... I'm ok to do this how you guys would like! I was just throwing out suggestions on my thoughts.... But maybe a standard on info like water type, PPM N used, Ect.... At lease to start...


----------



## cnycharles (Dec 19, 2011)

it was mentioned that we didn't need to get a lot of fertilizer to start, since we could always get more. if we wanted to spread the first bag around that would get people started and if more were interested, we could get another bag (or two)

also, people doing the test don't necessarily need to use it on all of their plants. if they have a bunch of phals and a bunch of paphs, grab some of each and use it on them, and can compare to the other stuff they have (if they have the time to do that) just thoughts


----------



## Ray (Dec 19, 2011)

I, like Ross, work through a proportioning pump that adds the fertilizer to my irrigation water as it is used. 100% of my plants - most in LECA and S/H culture, some mounted, some in EcoWeb, some in Orchiata - straight or with perlite/charcoal - will get this stuff.

I figure this is a fairly low-risk trial. With this formula, there is no gross "poisoning" potential, but there is always a possibility of a deficiency in the K itself (unlikely, in my opinion), or a deficiency in something else brought on by the low K. Deficiencies are easier to see than to specifically identify, but considering the most significant change is the K level, if you see a deficiency, switch back to the regular fertilizer, and it'll be remedied in no time.


----------



## gnathaniel (Dec 19, 2011)

I'd like to get a pound or two if there's enough. I can take it in a bag since I'll be storing in my own sealed container anyway. If I get more than a pound I'll also share with my Dad for him to try on his Paphs and Catts.

I hope to try this on seedlings of several genera; I have a few groups of individuals from the same flasks, including Catt acklandiae, Den canaliculatum, Bulb plumatum, and some others. Not sure whether I should try different regimens within the groups or just feed them all with K-Lite in distilled water and stick to my regular feed (MSU WW in tap) for everything else. Opinions on this are welcome.

If there's not enough to go around please leave me out first, I don't mind waiting until later to get some of this. My collection is so small and I'm such an under-fertilizer that I'm not going to add much info anyway. Thanks Ray and Rick for your hard work and ideas to get this going!

--Nat


----------



## tocarmar (Dec 19, 2011)

I'll take 1#. I have a small collection in house & I will try it on the Cyps. outside in the spring/summer.


----------



## Clark (Dec 19, 2011)

If any neighbors want to share a shipment, please pm me.


----------



## SlipperKing (Dec 19, 2011)

I've been out of touch for a few days. If there is any left Ray I'll take up to 5lbs. Thanks


----------



## tocarmar (Dec 19, 2011)

Clark said:


> If any neighbors want to share a shipment, please pm me.



pmed


----------



## Ray (Dec 20, 2011)

I just had an idea. What do you all think of this: I will sell the fertilizer to you at $5/lb (minimum 1# package - heat-sealed plastic bag), and the profit will be donated to the forum.


----------



## cnycharles (Dec 20, 2011)

fine with me.


----------



## tocarmar (Dec 20, 2011)

Ray said:


> I just had an idea. What do you all think of this: I will sell the fertilizer to you at $5/lb (minimum 1# package - heat-sealed plastic bag), and the profit will be donated to the forum.



Sounds good to me also!!


----------



## Rick (Dec 20, 2011)

Ray said:


> I just had an idea. What do you all think of this: I will sell the fertilizer to you at $5/lb (minimum 1# package - heat-sealed plastic bag), and the profit will be donated to the forum.



Sounds good to me.


----------



## Marc (Dec 20, 2011)

I'm interested in this product but I'm wondering about two things.

What would the total cost be incl. shipping to the Netherlands.

And would shipping fertilizer actually be possible, will it require customs paperwork? Or is it banned completely on airmail because of the threat it could potentialy provide.


----------



## Ray (Dec 20, 2011)

I could probably fit a 2 pound bag into a small flat rate box - cost $13.95 for shipping, $10 for the fertilizer.

I don't think it would be an issue in such a small package, and there appears to be no restriction on either end. I have shipped 2# jars of the MSU stuff all over Europe.


----------



## SlipperKing (Dec 20, 2011)

Sounds great Ray


----------



## Ray (Dec 22, 2011)

OK, the fertilizer is in!

Here's what I have for distribution - in pounds, all in sealed plastic bags, unless otherwise noted:


Rick 5	
Ray 5	
Ross 4	
Keithrs 2	
cnycharles 1	
Eric M 2 (Jar)
yakmanq 2 (jar)
jtrmd 3	
gnathaniel 2	
tocamar 1	
Rick H 5	
Jim Toomey 16	
Marc 2

Price is $5/lb, plus shipping. All profits will go to this forum.

Please place a "gift certificate" order HERE, using a credit card for payment. Ignore any service fees, they will not be charged (I do the processing off-line, so you card won't be charged until ti's ready to go). You may also call or fax the payment info to 888-283-5094.

If you don't want to participate, please let me know.


----------



## Rick (Dec 22, 2011)

Ray said:


> OK, the fertilizer is in!
> 
> Here's what I have for distribution - in pounds, all in sealed plastic bags, unless otherwise noted:
> 
> ...




I think Jim Toomey's max was 6 lbs (not 16).

But we have 13 people to divide 25 lbs (2 lbs each = 26). With cnycharles and tocamar only wanting 1lb each that 's back to 24 lbs with everyone else still getting 2lbs.

2lbs is fine for me.


----------



## Ray (Dec 22, 2011)

Actually, I ordered 2 bags, allowing those wanting more to get the larger amount, and Jim contacted me telling me he wanted more...


----------



## Ray (Dec 22, 2011)

This is also available at my website.


----------



## Rick (Dec 22, 2011)

Pretty cool!

Then I'll stick with my 5lb, and up my gift certificate when I get a chance.


----------



## cnycharles (Dec 22, 2011)

pretty snazzy chart! my g.c. is purchased

um, will the $5 service fee be waived for this transaction?


----------



## Jim Toomey (Dec 22, 2011)

Thank you Ray!
I used the gift certificate to pay for the 16 #.
Thanks again!


----------



## Rick (Dec 22, 2011)

I just got back a few of the last well water analysis results.

Keep in mind I'm over limestone in middle TN, well pump is roughly 150 ft down (though productive water usually at less than 50 ft).

Hardness of 450mg/L CaCO3
Alkalinity = 164
Conductivity 800useimens (that should be TDS~550)
Sulfate = 270
Ca =162
Mg = 11.7
Na = 2.9
K was Non detect at 1mg/L


When you add up Ca, Na, Mg, Bicarb, and Sulfate and subtract from the aproximate TDS, there's not much left (if at all) for chloride or phosphate.

I've been diluting this about 10:1 for irrigation water.

So just about any watering the plants would be getting 16 mg of Ca, 1.7 mg of Mg, 27 mg of sulfate, and an alkalinity of 16. No significant K, Na, Cl, P, or silicates.


----------



## Ray (Dec 23, 2011)

Thanks to Rick, Keith, Jim Q, Charles, Jim T, and Rick H for placing the orders.

There will be no service fee involved.

No need to actually specify any particular dollar amount on the "gift certificate" purchase - I'll adjust the pricing by the pounds requested in the list I posted earlier. Put in $1, to keep the software happy.

Also, concerning shipping costs - for 1 or 2#, I'll use a small USPS flat rate box, so shipping domestically will be $5. For larger amounts, I'll only pass on my discounted FedEx Home Delivery or Ground (ship to a business address, it's cheaper) rates. In either case, it's cheaper than the post office.

Also know that submitting a credit card on my web store does not get it charged right away. After I do the repackaging - and I'm waiting to get more responses - I'll pack and process the orders before shipping. Youll get an email with tracking info from the carrier.


----------



## Ray (Dec 23, 2011)

Thanks Ross.

Eric M, jtrmd, gnathaniel, tocamar, Marc - I would like to repackage and ship early next week, so please get your orders in, or let me know to drop it.

I also see that I missed a request from another person. Anyone willing to give up a pound or two?


----------



## SlipperKing (Dec 23, 2011)

Ray said:


> Thanks Ross.
> 
> Eric M, jtrmd, gnathaniel, tocamar, Marc - I would like to repackage and ship early next week, so please get your orders in, or let me know to drop it.
> 
> I also see that I missed a request from another person. Anyone willing to give up a pound or two?



Sure Ray, whatever works


----------



## Ray (Dec 23, 2011)

Thanks Rick. I'll take a pound from you and one from me for Mike.

If I don't hear from some of the others shortly, I'll take it from them, instead.


----------



## jtrmd (Dec 23, 2011)

done


----------



## Ray (Dec 23, 2011)

jtrmd said:


> done



Thanks!


----------



## gnathaniel (Dec 23, 2011)

Sorry I haven't gotten mine in yet, Ray, having some trouble with the browser on a new computer so I've temporarily switched back to an older one. I assume it's okay if I order other stuff along with the fertilizer? I've been wanting to try some orchiata and I need a few other things too. In any case I'll get my order in ASAP.

--Nat


----------



## Mike (Dec 23, 2011)

Order placed. Thanks for the accommodation.


----------



## Ray (Dec 23, 2011)

Thanks, Mike.

No problem, Nat. As long as I know you're in.


----------



## gnathaniel (Dec 23, 2011)

Okay, got mine in, thanks Ray! Looking forward to seeing how my seedlings like the K-Lite.

--Nat


----------



## Stone (Dec 23, 2011)

Everyone doing this K-lite trial might end up with different results depending on the media they are using. Looking forward to seeing the outcome!
Are your plans to give the trial a full growing season before making conclusions?


----------



## Rick (Dec 24, 2011)

Stone said:


> Everyone doing this K-lite trial might end up with different results depending on the media they are using. Looking forward to seeing the outcome!
> Are your plans to give the trial a full growing season before making conclusions?



I doubt anyone is going to wait that long before saying anything. I suspect results will trickle in over the next couple years, which may actually cause refinement of various growers conditions.

This group is really into tinkering, and good(or bad) results will be pounced on pretty quickly, with another tweak here and there.:wink:


----------



## NYEric (Dec 24, 2011)

Is there any left?


----------



## Eric Muehlbauer (Dec 24, 2011)

Sent off my payment...thanks Ray for doing all the work for us!


----------



## billc (Dec 25, 2011)

NYEric said:


> Is there any left?



I was wondering the same thing, should have paid more attention to the thread.

Bill


----------



## tocarmar (Dec 25, 2011)

Payment sent.. Thank You Ray!!!!


----------



## Ray (Dec 25, 2011)

Sorry, all committed.

Not to worry, if we see something interesting - or conversely, don't see anything obviously negative - I'm sure well be reordering to keep up the supply, and you can jump in then.


----------



## Rick (Dec 25, 2011)

billc said:


> I was wondering the same thing, should have paid more attention to the thread.
> 
> Bill



In the meantime you could use the work around I've been using for the last 6 or so months.

1/8 tsp each (for winter) of MSU, Ca NO3, and MgSO4


----------



## cabnc (Dec 25, 2011)

*April Trip*

Ray,

"1/8 tsp each (for winter) of MSU, Ca NO3, and MgSO4"

How much water is this added to ?? How does the mix change for spring / summer ??

Any thought of getting more K-Lite to sell on your April Trip / speaking engagements into North Carolina ??

Charlie
VP CFOS
Wilmington, NC


----------



## Rick (Dec 25, 2011)

cabnc said:


> Ray,
> 
> "1/8 tsp each (for winter) of MSU, Ca NO3, and MgSO4"
> 
> ...



I came up with this actually. The general idea was to "dilute" the K in the MSU with supplemental Nitrogen from calcium nitrate and increased Mg sulfate. Those amounts are for 1 gallon of water, and I feed once a week (in winter I skip when its not sunny, so sometimes every 2-3 weeks). In summer I was using a 1/4 tsp each per gal.

The irrigation water should be soft-very soft water (but not straight RO).

To be precise, the MgSO4 is anhydrous (not Epsom salts) and the Ca Nitrate has 4 waters of hydration.

If you can only get Epsom salts then use 1/4 tsp/gal instead of 1/8 tsp.


----------



## billc (Dec 26, 2011)

I've been using this for the last 2 months or so after reading some of the posts Rick and Rick H. had posted their thoughts and observations on the benefits of diluting the K and upping the calcium and magnesium levels.
http://grotekusa.com/products/guide/product.asp?code=calmax

I didn't really pay that much attention in chemistry class all those years ago, so I'm getting a little lost with all the formulations being tossed back and forth in the threads, but this stuff seemed to fit the bill.

I'm using it @1/4 tsp Cal-Max, 1/4 tsp MSU(pure water) per gallon every other watering. 

Bill


----------



## Brabantia (Dec 26, 2011)

billc said:


> I'm using it @1/4 tsp Cal-Max, 1/4 tsp MSU(pure water) per gallon every other watering.
> Bill


Caution: on reading the Grotek CalMag data sheet I see that Ca (Calcium) is from Calcium chloride. Maybe this is not very important for vegetables culture in soil ... but for Paphs and Phrags ??


----------



## Rick (Dec 26, 2011)

Brabantia said:


> Caution: on reading the Grotek CalMag data sheet I see that Ca (Calcium) is from Calcium chloride. Maybe this is not very important for vegetables culture in soil ... but for Paphs and Phrags ??



Can't say about paphs or phrags generally, but I don't think that amount of chloride would put a dent in orchids generally.

Remember that a few paph species (supposedly salt sensitive species) live so close to the ocean that they get sprayed with salt water (tons of chloride in that). And all the growers using tap water from rivers and lakes get a good amount of chloride in that.

I also uncovered a paper on optimizing K use in hybrid phales production (high K!), but the Ca, Mg, and much of the K was added as the chloride salts of these elements so chloride ended up as much as 100 ppm too! 

So at this point I haven't seen anything specific for phrags. They may be special.

I'm thinking that sodium and chloride may be a form of antidote for keeping K from locking up a plant.


----------



## Rick (Dec 26, 2011)

billc said:


> I've been using this for the last 2 months or so after reading some of the posts Rick and Rick H. had posted their thoughts and observations on the benefits of diluting the K and upping the calcium and magnesium levels.
> http://grotekusa.com/products/guide/product.asp?code=calmax
> 
> I didn't really pay that much attention in chemistry class all those years ago, so I'm getting a little lost with all the formulations being tossed back and forth in the threads, but this stuff seemed to fit the bill.
> ...



Any results yet?

"Every other watering" really doesn't tell me what your frequency of watering is. If you water only once a week then I think you would be fine, but if you water more than once a week, then you might want to slow your feeding down some.


----------



## Jim Toomey (Dec 26, 2011)

Observations seen during the two months?


----------



## billc (Dec 26, 2011)

I'm watering probably 3 times every 2 weeks. I haven't seen any changes either good or bad. The plants have slowed down some due to the lower temps in winter. I grow in an unheated basement and the night time temps are about 52-55 degrees F. Day time, when the lights are on, is about 72-75F. The roots I can see in the clear pots look good with nice white tips so I don't think I'm hurting them. 


Bill


----------



## Rick (Dec 26, 2011)

billc said:


> I'm watering probably 3 times every 2 weeks. I haven't seen any changes either good or bad. The plants have slowed down some due to the lower temps in winter. I grow in an unheated basement and the night time temps are about 52-55 degrees F. Day time, when the lights are on, is about 72-75F. The roots I can see in the clear pots look good with nice white tips so I don't think I'm hurting them.
> 
> 
> Bill



What is the chemistry of your irrigation water without fertilizer in it?


----------



## billc (Dec 26, 2011)

Rick said:


> What is the chemistry of your irrigation water without fertilizer in it?



I use rainwater most of the year. I really have no idea of the chemistry of that, other than it's probably on the acidic side. Once in a while in the dead of winter, if everything is frozen precipitation, I'll get a few gallons of RO at the grocery store and add a tad less than 1/8 tsp MSU to that . In this year of no winter so far I may be able to use rainwater all winter:wink:.

Bill


----------



## Rick (Dec 26, 2011)

billc said:


> I use rainwater most of the year. I really have no idea of the chemistry of that, other than it's probably on the acidic side. Once in a while in the dead of winter, if everything is frozen precipitation, I'll get a few gallons of RO at the grocery store and add a tad less than 1/8 tsp MSU to that . In this year of no winter so far I may be able to use rainwater all winter:wink:.
> 
> Bill



I think it would be better to add in a bit of tap water to your rainwater instead of MSU, and fertilize every 3 waterings instead of every 2.

Those 1/8 tsp/gal of MSU is always adding 20-25 ppm of K to the system without the benefit of having it buried in Ca and Mg.


----------



## NYEric (Dec 27, 2011)

Ray said:


> Sorry, all committed.
> 
> - I'm sure well be reordering to keep up the supply, and you can jump in then.


OK.


----------



## Ray (Dec 27, 2011)

With one exception - and if you check your email, you'll know who you are - the K-Lite fertilizer has been shipped.

You will all note that it is VERY heterogeneous. I mixed it as well as I can, but I strongly suggest that you make a stock solution out of all of it for later dilution.


----------



## abax (Dec 28, 2011)

Might it be advantageous to start a new thread for this
experiment? The discussion/orders are 10 pages long now.
I assume for most of us who want to keep up with developments might appreciate a thread dealing with the
results/observations in a specific area.


----------



## Ray (Dec 28, 2011)

Probably right, Angela. I'll do just that.


----------



## cnycharles (Dec 31, 2011)

I was wondering at what total ppm phrag growers would recommend of this fertilizer, for watering species and hybrids? I have an ebb/flood irrigation tank and s/h of some others, wondering what would be the best very low rate to use for feeding/watering phrags? I read in some places where people say phrags are 'heavy feeders' and then others where I read to 'not use fertilizer' very often. 
I have two kovachii hybrids that can grow very quickly, so these I might need to ask about a higher rate for them as when I first got them I had slow-release plant food lightly on top of the media. 
Would it be better for phrags, for me to sprinkle blood and bone meal on top of the media instead of mixing up fertilizer in the water?


----------



## Rick (Dec 31, 2011)

cnycharles said:


> I was wondering at what total ppm phrag growers would recommend of this fertilizer, for watering species and hybrids? I have an ebb/flood irrigation tank and s/h of some others, wondering what would be the best very low rate to use for feeding/watering phrags? I read in some places where people say phrags are 'heavy feeders' and then others where I read to 'not use fertilizer' very often.
> I have two kovachii hybrids that can grow very quickly, so these I might need to ask about a higher rate for them as when I first got them I had slow-release plant food lightly on top of the media.
> Would it be better for phrags, for me to sprinkle blood and bone meal on top of the media instead of mixing up fertilizer in the water?



I feed my Phrags (all species) at the same rate as everything else. Presently that turns out to be 37.5ppm N in a 10% well water. The feeding is done once per week (unless too cloudy, cool). Some things are in SH, some in bark based mix in standard pots, and some are in baskets. The long petaled phrags, besseae, and kovachii are in the baskets.

Obviously the SH systems are going to hang onto the fertilizer longer than the potted systems and baskets, but in just about all cases the SH plants are also big overgrown plants too. I have a big longifolium in SH that is really sucking it down. You saw the pics of the caricinum I posted recently.


----------



## Ray (Jan 4, 2012)

Just to keep everyone up-to-date:

I finally got the bill for the fertilizer, so could "do the math", and have made a $115 donation to the Slippertalk Fund on all of our behalf's.


----------



## Rick (Jan 4, 2012)

Ray said:


> Just to keep everyone up-to-date:
> 
> I finally got the bill for the fertilizer, so could "do the math", and have made a $115 donation to the Slippertalk Fund on all of our behalf's.



That's pretty awesome:clap:


----------



## SlipperFan (Jan 4, 2012)

Ray said:


> Just to keep everyone up-to-date:
> 
> I finally got the bill for the fertilizer, so could "do the math", and have made a $115 donation to the Slippertalk Fund on all of our behalf's.


Thank you, Ray!


----------



## Eric Muehlbauer (Jan 4, 2012)

Good man! Thanks for all your efforts.


----------



## cnycharles (Jan 5, 2012)

very nice! applied my first batch today, managed to spill some on my new, fake laminate pressboard floor (which doesn't like water)


----------



## Ray (Jan 5, 2012)

Don't thank me alone - I only purchased 10% of the batch, so contributed 10% of that.


----------



## paphreek (Jan 5, 2012)

Ray said:


> Don't thank me alone - I only purchased 10% of the batch, so contributed 10% of that.



But you and John did all the development and "leg work". Thanks!

I mixed all 4 pounds at once as recommended and watered with it yesterday. Any conjecture as to how long it might take for the plants "rebalance" at the lower K level?


----------



## Rick (Jan 5, 2012)

paphreek said:


> But you and John did all the development and "leg work". Thanks!
> 
> I mixed all 4 pounds at once as recommended and watered with it yesterday. Any conjecture as to how long it might take for the plants "rebalance" at the lower K level?



It's not so much a matter of "rebalancing" as "unlocking" plants (or potting mixes) that are saturated with K Ross.

Repotting your most stubborn plants into fresh mix sped things up quite a bit for many of my worst cases. You may have repotted a bunch that you thought had stalled due to "stale or sour" mix and already seen a new burst of growth. 

Mounted stuff or plants in inorganic mixes will also not the change pretty quick since they don't have a bunch of K saturated bark (or CHC) surrounding the roots.

I've noticed differences in just a few weeks with the newest leaves or burst of root growth. A few more beat up plants put on a burst of new basal growths after about a month.

It can really depend on the species too. My bulbo cornutum put on a burst of new growths and the first wave all had bunches of little black specks in the leaves. This was actually kind of attractive, so didn't alarm me. The new flecked leaves were also considerably longer and with much better/stiffer substance. For years this plant would produce bulbs and leaves that layed against the side of the mount with the leaves very soft and floppy. The new growth stands out almost perpendicular stiffer and shiny. Also the newer growth since all the black flecked leaves is just solid green with no flecs???

But overall I would expect you to see some differences within a month.


----------



## Ray (Jan 6, 2012)

Just ran across this article about potassium uptake in bromeliads - looks interesting and has one or two orchid-related references:
Winkler & Zotz


----------



## Rick (Jan 6, 2012)

Ray said:


> Just ran across this article about potassium uptake in bromeliads - looks interesting and has one or two orchid-related references:
> Winkler & Zotz



I have a similar one that was part of my references when I was looking into this phenomena earlier. Could be the same authors since a lot of the lanquage is the same.

I don't think it was a "link-able" paper and is probably sitting on my home computor as a pdf file.


----------



## Heather (Jan 6, 2012)

Thanks to all who participated and for the donations! You guys are AWESOME!


----------



## Rick (Jan 6, 2012)

Ray said:


> Just ran across this article about potassium uptake in bromeliads - looks interesting and has one or two orchid-related references:
> Winkler & Zotz



What a coincidence.

It's the same paper I downloaded in August


----------



## Lanmark (Jan 7, 2012)

How did I miss this thread before now 

I'll be interested to see how this all plays out. I'm interested in trying this product in the future if you (Ray, or anyone else for that matter) decide to offer this product for sale on a regular basis.


----------

