# Fungus?



## Stone (Nov 3, 2011)

This has probably been coverved before but would appreciate any ideas.
A couple of my Paph. bellatulum are developing a browning tip on the leaves.
It starts at the extream tip of the leaf and very very slowly makes its way
down the central vein not affecting the rest of the leaf at all. I know I could
cut it off but I would like to know what it is or what's causing it.


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## eggshells (Nov 3, 2011)

Is it salt build up on the medium?


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## SlipperFan (Nov 3, 2011)

Does the tip feel dry, or a bit moist?


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## Stone (Nov 3, 2011)

Definately dry to the touch and it can't be salt build up because I use one-eighth streangth feed and flush well often.


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## Paph_LdyMacBeth (Nov 3, 2011)

I don't grow brachy's but I have found with other paphs this can sometimes be caused by low humidity as well (or at least increasing humidity stopped this from happening as frequently). 
Other things that can cause browning is mechanical damage (are you maybe getting the tips of the leaves caught in between pots?), general age, or as others have said salt buildup. I would imagine different types of fertilizers, ratios, and such could cause this (ie too much of one type of nutrient), but I can't speak to that.


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## likespaphs (Nov 3, 2011)

could you post a photo?


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## Stone (Nov 3, 2011)

Sorry not ste up for that yet but imagine a thin brown line running down the very center of the leaf and moving really slow. I'm talking 1mm a month.
I dabbed a little cinnamon/alchohol on and that seems to have stopped it but who knows?


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## Rick (Nov 3, 2011)

"salt leaf tip burn" I think is just another symptom of excess K. It almost doesn't matter how frequently you flush the pots, but ratios of Ca/Mg to K and overall amount of K during feeding.

Goes back to bad growth of niveum seedlings.

I would repot and choke the K way down in future feedings. Add some form of crushed dolomitic limestone to the potting mix.

BTW you mentioned that your basic irrigation water was acidic. Do you know the hardness, alkalinity, pH and eC of your basic water?

Usually acidic waters are very soft with very low amounts of Ca and Mg.


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## Stone (Nov 3, 2011)

I use rain water collected from the roof so I imagine it has next to no nutrients in it apart from the odd bird offering. ec dosn't even register and ph
is about 6


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## Rick (Nov 4, 2011)

Stone said:


> I use rain water collected from the roof so I imagine it has next to no nutrients in it apart from the odd bird offering. ec dosn't even register and ph
> is about 6



A lot of the problems you are sharing with us are similar to what I've been experiencing over the years (with me using straight RO water).

Things like leaf tip burn, stalled seedling growth, root burn with Vanda, erwinia.... have become marginal issues since I started cutting 10% of my very crusty well water with the RO water I was exclusively using before, and replacing most of the K in the feed with Ca.

I still end up using a "soft" low salt water with hardness 20-30 ppm and alkalinity of 10-15 ppm pH is closer to 7.

But that starts the system out with a bit of Ca/Mg and silicates not in the RO water.


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## valenzino (Nov 4, 2011)

I agree with Rick,I had same problem cause my well water is nearly pure.Solved the problems with fertilizers and for Paphs adding white marble in the media and useing epson salts.

But for bellatulum this can be also a problem due to high temperature.That species is very sensitive to too high tremps and becames very suxceptible to illnesses.


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## eggshells (Nov 4, 2011)

I am using a product called cal-max to my regular fertilizing regime. It says: 

It says it prevents leaf tip burn and blossom end rot in tomatoes. I figure might be the same for orchids too.


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## Rick (Nov 4, 2011)

eggshells said:


> I am using a product called cal-max to my regular fertilizing regime. It says:
> 
> It says it prevents leaf tip burn and blossom end rot in tomatoes. I figure might be the same for orchids too.



You're pretty close to on track with this eggshells.

I know a lot of us have been growing a lot of stuff successfully for years, but usually with just a handful of persistant problems and accomodations.

One for me is that I couldn't get ANY phal to survive if I grew it in a pot (regardless of media), but they generally did good for me when mounted. I always considered this an excessive watering problem. But when I cut K down and replaced with calcium (keeping N stable) I was amazed as to:
1) I have some potted phals doing just fine now
2) A few mounted plants that were on the verge of death (atributed to disease) are turning around at a fantastic rate
3) the plants I thought were doing good to start with are doing better than I've seen in the last 5 or more years.

I still have my first orchid (my wife gave me a hybrid phal in 2001 Valentines day). It grew like mad at first, bloomed like crazy, and then was on a downhill slide for the last 3 years. It looked crappy this winter, and I thought I was going to lose it. But in the last 6 months its been growing roots like mad, and new leaves big and stiff. I just spotted a new flower spike yesterday too.


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## Stone (Nov 6, 2011)

eggshells said:


> I am using a product called cal-max to my regular fertilizing regime. It says:
> 
> It says it prevents leaf tip burn and blossom end rot in tomatoes. I figure might be the same for orchids too.



I also bought myself some Cal-max even though the container didn't say
what form of Ca was in it. After a search I found it was calcium chloride!
It's still in my shed unopened.


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## eggshells (Nov 6, 2011)

Stone said:


> I also bought myself some Cal-max even though the container didn't say
> what form of Ca was in it. After a search I found it was calcium chloride!
> It's still in my shed unopened.



I didn't know that! Good to know. Although I have been using the product in a while now without any problems (touch wood). Actually I was looking at dynagro products at first but they only have mag-pro so no calcium on it. Perhaps you can use magnesium sulfate and calcium nitrate instead? Maybe Rick can recommend other source of calcium and magnesium supplements.


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## Stone (Nov 6, 2011)

Over here it's often recomended to use gypsum (cacium sulphate) but all the
samples I've checked are contaminated with limestone (ph9).


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## eggshells (Nov 6, 2011)

I was checking the chemical composition of the Cal-Max. Are you afraid that calcium chloride might hurt your plants?


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## Stone (Nov 6, 2011)

This is what I found about Chloride:
It is usually the first ion to produce recognizable symptoms: ( yellow margins or tips of leaves extending and evenually turning black).
Increases succulence of leaves leading to greater risk of fungal attack.
Whether using a small amount in your liquid feeds will have these affects, I
don't know but I'll wait for you to let us know


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## eggshells (Nov 6, 2011)

Interesting. What I found is calcium chloride is abundant in the environment and too much of it may do harm than good. Just like everything else in this world. However the reason why we are applying it is because of the deficiency in the first place? I don't know as I am not an expert. I have not seen the symptoms that you describe but you sure got me worried lol!


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## Rick (Nov 6, 2011)

I don't know if I would sweat the chloride that much. Since eggshell is already using it and hasn't seen any problems the calcium is doing more work than the chloride is causing problems.

Looking at what hits niveum, exul, concolor, godefroyae in the wild (i.e salt water) chlorides are obviously not a big deal to those species.

It's hard to generalize about peoples surface waters, but it's not uncommon to see 20-30ppm of chloride in most drinking waters (that growers typically use for watering orchids).

So dilute amounts of calcium chloride probably isn't going to put any more chloride into your plants than most growers get anyway from using drinking water.

However, I use calcium nitrate for my soluble calcium boost. Calcium sulfate (gypsum) is probably fine to, but has limited solubility (its a pain to dissolve). Bone meal (calcium phosphate) has been used in horticulture for years too, but its also not very soluble. Marilyn LeDeux (who I think is a fantastic Phrag grower) uses it routinely in her potting mixes.

You might also look at some of the Cal/Mag boosters from some other fertilizer brands. These will probably be some combination of calcium nitrate and mag sulfate (epsom salt). Recently I came across a cal/mag product (that I have not tried) for turf grass management that has calcium and magnesium chelated in organic sulfur materials (organo-sulfonates of some type). These may be really, good to try, but I have too many other things to play with already.


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## Stone (Nov 10, 2011)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Here is a pic of the problem I was on about


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## Ozpaph (Nov 10, 2011)

I've been trying this, an Oz product. Has low K and high Ca and Mg - http://shop.nutri-tech.com.au/catal...d=194&osCsid=67303f7886912d1cdda7acdcd975bbe2


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## Ozpaph (Nov 10, 2011)

Stone said:


> Here is a pic of the problem I was on about



Is the white stuff something you painted on?


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## Marc (Nov 10, 2011)

Ozpaph said:


> Is the white stuff something you painted on?



Looks like a white fungicide in powdered form that can be directly applied to affected area's.


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## Stone (Nov 10, 2011)

Thanks for the product link Ozpaph. Yes that's a fungicide I painted on to see if it would stop the progression of that brown line and it does seem to
but I'd like to know exactly what it is. it only seems to affect species with
succulent leaves, mainly brachypetulum. Maybe I should mist less and increase ventilation?


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## Rick (Nov 10, 2011)

Going down the vein like that looks somewhat different from the typical leaf end burn, which usually browns a wider swath at the tip before progessing down the leaf.

That looks almost like a mechanical split. In times gone past my brachy's were more "succulent" but now they are more like leather.

Could it be too much water retention causing a spit at the vien?


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## Stone (Nov 10, 2011)

I can't see any splitting, just drying out of the tissue.




Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## Stone (Nov 10, 2011)

Here's another.




Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## likespaphs (Nov 10, 2011)

how do you water? do you move them or water in place?


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## Rick (Nov 10, 2011)

Did you also apply fungicide to the plant in lower photo? There is a symmetrical
dusty pattern that looks like hard water evaporation line.


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## Rick (Nov 10, 2011)

Ozpaph said:


> I've been trying this, an Oz product. Has low K and high Ca and Mg - http://shop.nutri-tech.com.au/catal...d=194&osCsid=67303f7886912d1cdda7acdcd975bbe2



Have you been using this long enough to see any results?

I like the numbers on this stuff.


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## Stone (Nov 10, 2011)

likespaphs said:


> how do you water? do you move them or water in place?



I water by ''carefully'' dipping into a bucket but I've always done that with seedlings. I don't think that's the problem.


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## Stone (Nov 10, 2011)

Rick said:


> Did you also apply fungicide to the plant in lower photo? There is a symmetrical
> dusty pattern that looks like hard water evaporation line.



No that's not hard water, everything else in the g/house is clean. That might be fungicide residue from when the leaf was still developing?
It's still happening, I've noticed it starting on some other leaves (concolor & bellatulum. All the other sp. (parvi. paphio. barbata ect.) are fine.


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## Ozpaph (Nov 11, 2011)

Rick said:


> Have you been using this long enough to see any results?
> 
> I like the numbers on this stuff.



Only a few months, Rick. I purchased it after following your 'low K, high Mg/Ca' advice. I think I'm a believer.
I rotate fertilizers on a monthly schedule - so only time will tell.


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## Ozpaph (Nov 11, 2011)

Stone said:


> No that's not hard water, everything else in the g/house is clean. That might be fungicide residue from when the leaf was still developing?
> It's still happening, I've noticed it starting on some other leaves (concolor & bellatulum. All the other sp. (parvi. paphio. barbata ect.) are fine.



My guess is its a split from the leaves expanding and contracting under variable turgidity and perhaps low humidity. The paste will help to keep the bugs out of the injured leaf area.


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## bricki (Dec 3, 2011)

Hi all!
This year I started growing paphs. And I'm still learning from you! 
I bought all my plants from ebay!
But here are some leaves:



















Should I worry about them?
And what can I do to prevent this in a future?
Thanks!!!


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## eggshells (Dec 3, 2011)

First one looked like mite damage. the rest looks like cell collapse. nothing to worry about. However I think you should check the first one. 

Others will probably chime in. Goodluck


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## likespaphs (Dec 3, 2011)

what sort of mix do you use?
your mix is different than mine and looks kinda chunky. 
have you been growing other orchids too?
how long have you been growing?
also, where are you located? (it sometimes helps with cultural advice but if you prefer not to say, that's absolutely at your discretion)


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## bricki (Dec 3, 2011)

I use COMPO Mix for terrestrial orchids.
And sphag on the top is only for keep humidity.
I grow some orchids since last year, most phals and dendrobiums.
But this year I bought more species. 
My favorite - Paphs!!! :wink:

Thanks for the answers!


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## SlipperFan (Dec 3, 2011)

Hi bricki, and welcome to Slippertalk.

I agree with eggshells, but I might also include the second and fourth ones in that suggestion. Do you know if they've had or have spider mites?


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## Marc (Dec 4, 2011)

Could you show us wat kind of material compo mix is?


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## bricki (Dec 4, 2011)

Sorry, I have finished all my packages...
But here is the link:
http://www.international.compo.com/en/consumer/blumenerde/composana.html
Maybe it's not the best mix, but it's only what I have fast... 
About spider mites - I think there are some on the down side of the leave on the last picture (I'm not 100% sure about the type of bug  )
Now tell me please, where to read about these monsters!!! :evil:
How to kill them???


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## Marc (Dec 4, 2011)

You can gently rub down the bottom of the leaves with a piece of white toilet / kitchen paper. If small red streaks apear it probably are spider mites.

I've treated versus spider mites with an insecticide a few times, but last time one plant had a few mites on it I took it to the bathroom and hosed it with the shower head from all directions. Since then they haven't returned, spider mites don't like it too humid.

Regarding the potting material you have used. I'm a bit worried there, I've seen a similar material and allthough it has it's uses I wouldn't use it for my Paphs. Because of it's peat content it tends to compact and if it compacts root loss is around the corner.


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## likespaphs (Dec 4, 2011)

you use their orchid mix?


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## bricki (Dec 4, 2011)

Yes, I do!
I know that is not the perfect for paphs, but it's temporary... 
I hope to gather ingredients for more appropriate mix, till next year! 
Any help will be appreciated!


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## SlipperFan (Dec 4, 2011)

Mark's suggestion is good. If you have a strong magnifying glass, you might actually be able to see the mites with it -- they are very tiny. There are two kinds: red spider mites and two-spotted spider mites. Ray (First Rays) sells something called SucraShield that worked very well for me when I had an outbreak of mites on my Paphs and Phals a couple years ago. I don't know if he ships overseas, but you might ask him.


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## Rick (Dec 4, 2011)

Most spider might problems are also associated with too dry (low humidity) conditions. As Marc pointed out.

Unless these turn out to be the special tropical kind, you can usually eliminate spider mights by keeping the humidity up higher (>60% RH).

If you are running dry, then you will probably be surprised how much better your plants do in general with a humid environment.


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## likespaphs (Dec 5, 2011)

i don't think that the sphag on top will help with humidity but i could be wrong


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## Stone (Mar 16, 2012)

Stone said:


> I can't see any splitting, just drying out of the tissue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok Sorry to bring this up again but its still occuring here and there and really giving me the #%$^*&(*(*) not knowing what's causing it.
Some info: Mostly on seedlings, one bellatulum in a compot of 4 otherwise perfectly healthy, good color, glossy leaves, good roots. both hainanese in a compot, otherwise good health and growing fast. Low fert levels, calcium provided. an appletonianum, concolor, urbanianum, roth and sanderianum all have it, but again all growing well. I think humidity is ok ( 60-70%) Plenty of air. Min. temp during this past summer- about 65F. 18-20C Max. about 95F 35C for a short time only, usually max. of 80F 27C. Does not progress further than in the pic. (usually not even that far) Not present on other paphs treated exactly the same!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not mites. Someone??? Anyone seen this/knows what it is?? I noticed the pic of concolor in L. burk's book has it. I can take more/better pics if it will help.
Thanks for any thoughts.

Mike.


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## SlipperFan (Mar 16, 2012)

It looks like residue from water that sits in a cavity in the leaf. The water evaporates and leaves that residue.


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## Stone (Mar 17, 2012)

SlipperFan said:


> It looks like residue from water that sits in a cavity in the leaf. The water evaporates and leaves that residue.



No thats just a bit of fugicide Dot. What I'm talking about is browning on the extreme tip of the leaf and it only progresses down the central vein for 2-3mm and then stops.


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## Roth (Mar 17, 2012)

Stone said:


> Someone??? Anyone seen this/knows what it is?? I noticed the pic of concolor in L. burk's book has it. I can take more/better pics if it will help.
> Thanks for any thoughts.
> 
> Mike.



It is a micronutrient deficiency, but very hazardous to correct directly. You should be careful to lower a bit your potting mix pH, lower the calcium applications and use some organic stuff like fish emulsion to correct it as a spray ( not kelp). It will work just fine. I have seen some thousands plants affected in the Netherlands some years back, multifloral hybrids and Primcolor etc...

As an aside, it can develop a couple years later in a total plant collapse, especially after flowering. That deficiency first makes the plant grow really fast and nice, then there start to be that leaf tip thing, some older leaves are not as clean green as they should be, and at a later stage, if they are really very deficient, you can loose most of the leaves within a week or two. Most of the time you will never reach the extreme deficiency level. It is a translocatable micronutrient, but slowly, and the stocks once depleted cannot be replenished in the older tissues...


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## Stone (Mar 18, 2012)

Thanks for replying Roth. Yes I did check the pH of a selection of pots yesterday and found an average of around 5.5-6. I have not been adding Dolomite/Limestone as I believe most paphs seem to do better with a slightly acid p/media. but I think 5.5 might be getting a bit low. All my water is very pure in fact my mains water has the same pH as my rain water- 6.3 approx. and effectively 0 EC.
I can supply Ca with cal-nitrate but I think this will take a long time to bring up pH .5 or so. I have been feeding with 50/50 organic ( home made Japanese recipe + blood and bone and 50% Hydroponic solution at very low rate. I have been trialing this feed on some perennial cuttings and seems good. Also use kelp and humic acid from time to time. Maybe this is a watering issue??????????????????????????? I will find out eventually. I'm sure the solution is staring me in the face.


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## Stone (Mar 19, 2012)




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## vinhpicohp (Mar 26, 2012)

Some of my friends are still discussing about fungicide to treat fungus on orchids as those ordinarily comes into their media. I wonder whether it will contribute the risks to Symbiotic fungus, which decomposes the media and benifits the orchids?


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## Stone (Mar 26, 2012)

vinhpicohp said:


> Some of my friends are still discussing about fungicide to treat fungus on orchids as those ordinarily comes into their media. I wonder whether it will contribute the risks to Symbiotic fungus, which decomposes the media and benifits the orchids?



From what I've read, mychorriza at least, is not greatly affected by most non-systemic fungicides. I try to keep all fungicides down to a minimun anyway. I don't believe the above problem is caused by a fungal infection.


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## vinhpicohp (Mar 27, 2012)

Stone said:


> From what I've read, mychorriza at least, is not greatly affected by most non-systemic fungicides. I try to keep all fungicides down to a minimun anyway. I don't believe the above problem is caused by a fungal infection.



Greatly thanks! Neither do I, keep all fungicides down to a minimum


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## Stone (May 29, 2012)

Stone said:


>



Ok, I'm going to go out on a limb and speculate. I no longer have this problem! New leaves are good. So the only thing I've changed is cutting down on the Calnitrate and gypsum and upped the Boron and Ammonium a little.
Maybe too much soluble calcium in the media/not enough B?? Just guessing!! If you look at various pics of B deficiency you often see a kind of corky tissue forming which is what this looks like up close. But again....?????


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## Ozpaph (Jun 1, 2012)

nice photos, thanks. Keep us informed


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