# kovachii x Saint Ouen



## Ron-NY (Mar 1, 2007)

The flower is open! The petal span is 4" X 1.5". It is being registered as Phrag Haley Decker, after Glen's daughter. 
It is a little hard to get the color correct with my camera but some 35mm shots have been taken as well and will post those later.
I have views from different angles for you.





I will follow with a few close-ups and some plant shots


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## Ron-NY (Mar 1, 2007)




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## gonewild (Mar 1, 2007)

It was worth it!


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## Ron-NY (Mar 1, 2007)

bud


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## Heather (Mar 1, 2007)

I really like it. Glen sent me the first photo last night but it's nice to see it from all the different angles, and how it opens. I think the kovachii influence came through really well.


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## gore42 (Mar 1, 2007)

Wow! I love the color (even assuming that the color isn't accurate) and I'm very impressed with how much of the kovachii came through. Beautiful!

- Matt


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## Pablo (Mar 1, 2007)

*First Phragmipedium kovachii hybrid*

 This is the first published picture of a Phragmipedium kovachii
hybrid: Phragmipedium kovachii x Phragmipedium Saint Ouen (Haley
Decker)
by Alfredo Manrique, Glen Decker y Fritz Schomburg

Height 3.8 cm
Width: 11 cm.

Saint Ouen = Hanne Popow x besseae
Hanne Popov = Phrag. schlimii x Phrag. besseae 'Newberry'

http://www.peruorchids.com/hibridos/PKxSaintOuen.htm

Best regards.

Pablo Bermúdez
Peruvian Orchid Club


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## NYEric (Mar 1, 2007)

Yay besseae hybrids! Thanx for posting.


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## Kyle (Mar 1, 2007)

Very Nice. I wonder if its done growing? 11cm is good, but I was hoping for more...

Kyle


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## Heather (Mar 1, 2007)

Welcome Pablo and thank you! 
I am going to combine this thread with the one that Ron just posted so we don't have two different threads going.


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## smartie2000 (Mar 1, 2007)

I'm so excited! Thank-you for posting, it is the most beautiful phrag


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## Ron-NY (Mar 1, 2007)

Kyle said:


> Very Nice. I wonder if its done growing? 11cm is good, but I was hoping for more...
> 
> Kyle


It may expand a bit more...time will tell. It could be nice to cross this back to kovachii and see if size can enlarged. I think the shape is nice.


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## gore42 (Mar 1, 2007)

Hey Ron, would you mind if I post these photos at the Denver Orchid Society forum? Or would you like to do it? Glen gave a talk about the kovachii saga last year, and I think a lot of the DOS members would love to see these photos.

- Matt


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## NYEric (Mar 1, 2007)

This is like having a god child!


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## Heather (Mar 1, 2007)

NYEric said:


> This is like having a god child!



It's true, all week I've been thinking it's like a friend expecting a new baby!


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## Leo Schordje (Mar 1, 2007)

Kyle said:


> Very Nice. I wonder if its done growing? 11cm is good, but I was hoping for more...
> 
> Kyle



From talking with Fritz today, this flower should keep expanding right up until it drops. So it will get bigger over the next few days. Also consider this is a small first bloom seedling. There is every reason to expect that next year's bloom will be much larger. This 11 cm bodes well for much larger flowers in the future. 

From my own experience, a first bloom besseae that has 6.5 cm flowers frequentlly will exceed 9 cm when bloomed on a 3 growth plant. I would expect next year's blooms on the Phrag Haley Decker to be 10 to 20% larger than this first bloom.


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## Ron-NY (Mar 1, 2007)

gore42 said:


> Hey Ron, would you mind if I post these photos at the Denver Orchid Society forum? Or would you like to do it? Glen gave a talk about the kovachii saga last year, and I think a lot of the DOS members would love to see these photos.
> 
> - Matt


 Matt is it possible to link to this forum so Slipper Talk gets some more exposure as well?


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## Ron-NY (Mar 1, 2007)

Leo Schordje said:


> From talking with Fritz today, this flower should keep expanding right up until it drops. So it will get bigger over the next few days. Also consider this is a small first bloom seedling. There is every reason to expect that next year's bloom will be much larger. This 11 cm bodes well for much larger flowers in the future.
> 
> From my own experience, a first bloom besseae that has 6.5 cm flowers frequentlly will exceed 9 cm when bloomed on a 3 growth plant. I would expect next year's blooms on the Phrag Haley Decker to be 10 to 20% larger than this first bloom.



I will continue to measure and see what it will max out at and report back on it.

There are also a kovachii x besseae and kovachii x Walter Schomberg as well as kovachii x Cape Sunset in spike to look forward to in the near future.


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## gore42 (Mar 1, 2007)

Ron, Certainly! I think that all three of the people that visit the DOS forum visit this one too, though  But I'll certainly add a link!

- Matt


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## toddybear (Mar 1, 2007)

Incredible flower! Overall, it is much as I would envision the cross. The colour is just about dead-on between the two parents....with the purple of kovachii being as dominant as the red of besseae I can see a flood of lovely fuchsia Phrags in the near future. I'm looking foward to seeing the results of kovachii with longifolium, caudatum and the others in that group. Will the purple dominate in those crosses like the red does when besseae is used? I would expect so....the results could be stunning. Time will tell.


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## Marco (Mar 1, 2007)

nice one Ron. thanks for the photo


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## gonewild (Mar 1, 2007)

Ron, can you post a picture showing the whole plant and flower?


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## isaias m rolando (Mar 1, 2007)

This is the beguining of a new era for Phrag hybrids:THE PK ERA. It is also interesting to quote that the pollen used here was PK and of course the mother plant was St Ouen. We can only predict that the following opening of the cross with P. besseae should be very similar. And probably the other two will be bigger. It is also true that PK enlarges the size of the opened flower by the 5 to 7 day. So probably we can espect to have a 15 cm new Phrag. and bigger in the following years...
This probably is a dominant character of the pollen. We need to see what will happen when using PK as the mother plant...Now that Mr Manrique has very well establish and carefully selected flowering PKs, we can use the PK as mother plants. I will obtain permission from Mr Manrique to post you photographs of his unique PK plants. Only after a very careful selection he has started to use them as mother plants. Hybrids as PK X Barbara LeAnn, PK X Eric Young, X Grande, X Jason Fisher ( of course), X richteri, X pearcei, and others, are coming in flask using both parents as pollen and mother plant. What we have seen for rates of growing, the right direction is to use well known fast seedling growers, as St Ouen and X richterii, pearcei, besseae and all their fast growing seedlings. Another fact that is contributing for the succes is the growing conditions in Hawai...
The future is so bright for PK...lets put down the pressure on ilegal wild collected plants in the black market around....lets go for the spectacular hybrids coming!


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## ohio-guy (Mar 1, 2007)

how long does a Pk flower usually last? And the St Ouen? The next interesting things to learn will be what the life span of the bloom will be, and if it will prove fertile....


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## Kyle (Mar 1, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> This is the beguining of a new era for Phrag hybrids:THE PK ERA. It is also interesting to quote that the pollen used here was PK and of course the mother plant was St Ouen.



That makes sense, but everywhere I see them listed including Piping Rocks site, PK is listed as the capsule parent. I thought that was unusual, but the people who are writing it should know the correct way to right it. 

Which is it? 

Becasue it does make a difference.


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## isaias m rolando (Mar 1, 2007)

Yes sir, it makes a big diference to use the pollen or PK as mother plant. Mr Decker has both because CJM orchids did both flasks. There are no "mistakes " here. The plants do not look like boisserianum or caudatum var wallisi...and the flowers for sure are truly kovachii hybrids...
Perhaps it could be more interesting for you to know that CJM Orchids has Phrag hybrids growing in their collection since 1996, when the Int Orchid Shows in Lima and some presentations in Miami area (Redland), Los Angeles, New York and other cities in the US. All these years the selection of Phrag hybrids were legally imported to Peru. You can ask INRENA about these importations. There are records of them.
If anybody is willing to offer a diferent version for legal stock of PK and legally imported and exported Phrag Hybrids has to prove it. There are no other legal importation for Phrags, according to INRENA data on Phrag Hybrids, requiring CITES II documents at Lima airport. CJM Orchids is the only bussines with all Phrags (species and hybrids) growing in legal conditions.


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## Ron-NY (Mar 1, 2007)

gonewild said:


> Ron, can you post a picture showing the whole plant and flower?


the picture I took of this was with a flash and I was unhappy with the color. I found that natural light was better for my camera with this plant. So ignore the flower color


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## SlipperFan (Mar 1, 2007)

Take a look at this, just posted on the OGD:
http://www.peruorchids.com/hibridos/PKxSaintOuen.htm


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## Ron-NY (Mar 1, 2007)

SlipperFan said:


> Take a look at this, just posted on the OGD:
> http://www.peruorchids.com/hibridos/PKxSaintOuen.htm


I don't see any credit for my pics do you?


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## Heather (Mar 1, 2007)

Pablo just registered here today and posted that link here (earlier in this thread) also. You might want to send him a note, Ron.


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## SlipperFan (Mar 1, 2007)

Ron-NY said:


> I don't see any credit for my pics do you?


These are yours????
"Pictures published with authorization of Alfredo Manrique"


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## SlipperFan (Mar 1, 2007)

Heather said:


> Pablo just registered here today and posted that link here (earlier in this thread) also. You might want to send him a note, Ron.


Yea, I missed that earlier posting. When I realized it was there, I came back to edit my post, but am too late.

Whose ever photos they are, the flowers are gorgeous. I am totally in love...:smitten:


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## Ron-NY (Mar 1, 2007)

SlipperFan said:


> These are yours????
> "Pictures published with authorization of Alfredo Manrique"


Dot if you check page one..you will see the same pics that I posted here today

When Pablo posted the link this morning the other pictures weren't on the site just the first picture which Glen took and most likely e-mailed to Alfredo, you(Heather), and me last night. The bud pictures I took weeks ago, the flower opening shot I took on Tues and the flower shots I took this morning. 

My pictures must have been downloaded from this forum for I haven't shared them with anyone except through the forums. It really doesn't bother me that they are being used. I know Alfredo Manrique and consider him a friend.


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## SlipperFan (Mar 1, 2007)

Ron-NY said:


> ...just the first picture which Glen took and most likely e-mailed to Alfredo, you, and me last night.


No -- someone posted the link to that page on the OGD. I happened to be looking at the picture on page 3 of this thread when the OGD came to my computer. I thought it was timely, so posted the link. Actually, I thought I had read the first two pages of this thread last night, so I went directly to page 3. It turned out I hadn't. (I need an "embarassed" smiley...)

The photos are very nice, Ron. I suspect Alfredo thought it OK to post them since you sent them to him. Why don't you ask him to give you a credit line. That would certainly be fair.


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## Ron-NY (Mar 1, 2007)

It is no big issue. I am happy to share.
The thing is I didn't send my pics to Alfredo yet. I was going to send him a link to this page but haven't gotten around to it. So, I think Pablo took it upon himself to download my pics from this forum all but the first pic with the black background Alfredo didn't have.


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## SlipperFan (Mar 1, 2007)

Actually, I think you are very lucky to be among the very first to see this gorgeous flower!!! And to photograph it.


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## Candace (Mar 1, 2007)

He needs to make it right and correct his wording...sounds like he's saying they are his photos. Friend or not.


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## Ron-NY (Mar 1, 2007)

It has been cool watching this one develope..I can't wait to see some of the sibs bloom and it won't be too much longer until we see a couple of the other crosses.


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## Ron-NY (Mar 1, 2007)

Candace said:


> He needs to make it right and correct his wording...sounds like he's saying they are his photos. Friend or not.


Actually, I think it might have been done by Pablo...I have written him a PM. Things are done a little different in Peru


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## Barbara (Mar 1, 2007)

This is an exiting development, good job Ron, you must be a very proud parent.


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## Kyle (Mar 1, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> Yes sir, it makes a big diference to use the pollen or PK as mother plant. Mr Decker has both because CJM orchids did both flasks. There are no "mistakes " here. The plants do not look like boisserianum or caudatum var wallisi...and the flowers for sure are truly kovachii hybrids...
> Perhaps it could be more interesting for you to know that CJM Orchids has Phrag hybrids growing in their collection since 1996, when the Int Orchid Shows in Lima and some presentations in Miami area (Redland), Los Angeles, New York and other cities in the US. All these years the selection of Phrag hybrids were legally imported to Peru. You can ask INRENA about these importations. There are records of them.
> If anybody is willing to offer a diferent version for legal stock of PK and legally imported and exported Phrag Hybrids has to prove it. There are no other legal importation for Phrags, according to INRENA data on Phrag Hybrids, requiring CITES II documents at Lima airport. CJM Orchids is the only bussines with all Phrags (species and hybrids) growing in legal conditions.



I think you completely missed the point of my question. And I think Ron probably has the answer. Is this kovachii x St. Ouen or St. Ouen x kovachii?

Kyle


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## Ron-NY (Mar 1, 2007)

Kyle said:


> I think you completely missed the point of my question. And I think Ron probably has the answer. Is this kovachii x St. Ouen or St. Ouen x kovachii?
> 
> Kyle


 As far as I am aware, it is kovachii x Saint Ouen. That is how it is labeled so I assume it is correct.


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## Heather (Mar 1, 2007)

I have to say, I was THRILLED to get the photo last night and it was all I could do to wait for Mr. Delinquent, aka Ron, (j/k Ron!!) to get around to posting today but I knew he had permission from Glen and I did not. 

I worked for Glen last weekend at my local show and boy was I left excited for all of these goings on this week! Aiiieee!


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## PHRAG (Mar 1, 2007)

I am too lazy to open multiple windows. Can someone post some comparison photos of a kovachii species, a St. Ouen and the hybrid?


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## Kyle (Mar 1, 2007)

Thanks Ron.


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## isaias m rolando (Mar 2, 2007)

No sir. I have not missed the point. The fact you want to disregard accurate info is because you may be acting for the competitors. Of course after their "mistakes" and convicted actions against CITES and US Department of Justice they are trying to use some people to disregard the good results of legal PK and hybrids in the market.
I am out of this discusion. I will respond to legal tenants of PKs and hybrids only...
Have a good week


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## kentuckiense (Mar 2, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> No sir. I have not missed the point. The fact you want to disregard accurate info is because you may be acting for the competitors. Of course after their "mistakes" and convicted actions against CITES and US Department of Justice they are trying to use some people to disregard the good results of legal PK and hybrids in the market.
> I am out of this discusion. I will respond to legal tenants of PKs and hybrids only...
> Have a good week



Sorry, I'm pretty sure Kyle is not "acting for the competitors." This damn plant drives everyone off the deep end.


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## gore42 (Mar 2, 2007)

> No sir. I have not missed the point. The fact you want to disregard accurate info is because you may be acting for the competitors. Of course after their "mistakes" and convicted actions against CITES and US Department of Justice they are trying to use some people to disregard the good results of legal PK and hybrids in the market.
> I am out of this discusion. I will respond to legal tenants of PKs and hybrids only...
> Have a good week




WTF?

- Matt


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## John M (Mar 2, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> No sir. I have not missed the point. The fact you want to disregard accurate info is because you may be acting for the competitors. Of course after their "mistakes" and convicted actions against CITES and US Department of Justice they are trying to use some people to disregard the good results of legal PK and hybrids in the market.
> I am out of this discusion. I will respond to legal tenants of PKs and hybrids only...
> Have a good week



Does anybody know what the hell he's talking about?


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## John M (Mar 2, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> Yes sir, it makes a big diference to use the pollen or PK as mother plant. Mr Decker has both because CJM orchids did both flasks. There are no "mistakes " here. The plants do not look like boisserianum or caudatum var wallisi...and the flowers for sure are truly kovachii hybrids...
> Perhaps it could be more interesting for you to know that CJM Orchids has Phrag hybrids growing in their collection since 1996, when the Int Orchid Shows in Lima and some presentations in Miami area (Redland), Los Angeles, New York and other cities in the US. All these years the selection of Phrag hybrids were legally imported to Peru. You can ask INRENA about these importations. There are records of them.
> If anybody is willing to offer a diferent version for legal stock of PK and legally imported and exported Phrag Hybrids has to prove it. There are no other legal importation for Phrags, according to INRENA data on Phrag Hybrids, requiring CITES II documents at Lima airport. CJM Orchids is the only bussines with all Phrags (species and hybrids) growing in legal conditions.



Again; What the hell....?


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## gonewild (Mar 2, 2007)

John M said:


> Does anybody know what the hell he's talking about?



INTERVENTION! 

I think there has been a misunderstanding. English to Castillian Spanish to English.

I see an error with translation and meanings of words and phrases.

I think Isaias misunderstood Kyle to be questioning whether the pollen source for the hybrids was legal. He explained that CJM has all the hybrids in Peru to make the crosses legally.

Isais, I think Kyle meant that it makes a genetic difference whether kovachii is the pollen or pod parent. Is that correct Kyle?

If I'm wrong then move the argument to the kovachii battle thread.

Everybody be friends in this nice thread and enjoy the bloom.

No I'm not a moderator, but so what?


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## kentuckiense (Mar 2, 2007)

gonewild said:


> I see an error with translation and meanings of words and phrases.


Yeah, I think that's what happened.

Back on track: this hybrid definitely exceeded my expectations. I can't wait to see Pk x besseae!


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## ohio-guy (Mar 2, 2007)

I hope the beauty of this hybrid bodes well for the native pk's as I think most (or many) hobbyists will be more interested in growing crosses which will have hybrid vigor and improve on faults of parent plants, such as floppy flowers, or small flowers, or difficulty or slowness to blooming. And it certainly seems the crosses are availible in good numbers...it will be exciting to see the remainder crosses bloom, and then to see the next generation after these.


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## ohio-guy (Mar 2, 2007)

By the way, look back again at post 27 of the whole plant. It looks like this was blooming on a little 3 leave plant, the flower looks huge in relation to the young plant...


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## Kyle (Mar 2, 2007)

gonewild said:


> INTERVENTION!
> I think Isaias misunderstood Kyle to be questioning whether the pollen source for the hybrids was legal. He explained that CJM has all the hybrids in Peru to make the crosses legally.
> 
> Isais, I think Kyle meant that it makes a genetic difference whether kovachii is the pollen or pod parent. Is that correct Kyle?



Thats exactly what I was asking, and I think it runs a little deeper then bad translation, considering I made a second post more clearly outlining what my question was.

I just wanted some clearification considering everywhere the seedlings are being advertised for sale with PK as the capsule holder, then a guy with inside info comes out and says the opposite is true. 

For me, I would like to know becasue I do some amuture phrag breeding and would like to figure out what traits PK passes on through its pollen or vice versa. That was my motivation for the question.

I apologize to Ron for the blip in an otherwise fantastic thread, and to every one incase this guy doesn't post the pictures of the mother plants as he promised, becasue I pissed him off.

And for the record, I have met Manolo Arias (the competion) but am no way acting in his behalf and do not keep in contact with him, nor have I spoken with him in over a year. 

I would be foolish (and it would be impossible) for me to say that that plant is anything but a kovachii hybrid (which I think everyone (but one guy...) knows that wasn't what I was asking.

Carry on!


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## Ron-NY (Mar 2, 2007)

ohio-guy said:


> By the way, look back again at post 27 of the whole plant. It looks like this was blooming on a little 3 leave plant, the flower looks huge in relation to the young plant...


There are 4 mature leaves...I obviously didn't get one into the picture.

Kyle the mother kovachii plants were posted in my thread when I returned from Peru.


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## John M (Mar 2, 2007)

Kyle said:


> Thats exactly what I was asking, and I think it runs a little deeper then bad translation, considering I made a second post more clearly outlining what my question was.



I'm with Kyle - 100%. It was much more than a translation problem. What came to my mind was "Oh God, not another misinformed big FAT ego!". It'd be nice to stick to the facts, stay on topic and not resort to accusations so easily.

My appologies to Ron for my contributing to the tainting of his thread. I love the photos and would love to see more as things change. Thanks Ron!


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## NYEric (Mar 2, 2007)

kentuckiense said:


> Back on track: this hybrid definitely exceeded my expectations. I can't wait to see Pk x besseae!


Ummm.. This is the third mention of a Pk x besseae hybrid in this thread and I think I'm pretty well tapped into besseae hybrids. Has anyone ever had these for sale and WHOM!!! :fight:


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## Kyle (Mar 2, 2007)

I read (and saw pictures) on another forum that someone in the US have besseae x kovachii in spike. Shouldn't be long till we see those.

I think this hybrid gives us a good idea of what kovachii brings to this type of breeding. Although its difficult to make any judgements from one flower.

I want to see hybrids with plants from different sections of the genus phrag. Wallisii hybrids should bloom soon.

Kyle


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## Ron-NY (Mar 2, 2007)

NYEric said:


> Ummm.. This is the third mention of a Pk x besseae hybrid in this thread and I think I'm pretty well tapped into besseae hybrids. Has anyone ever had these for sale and WHOM!!! :fight:



This cross was made by both Arias and Manrique. I don't know if any one is offering any at this time. I had seen that HP Norton was offering some at a lecture in VA last September


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## NYEric (Mar 2, 2007)

When I spoke to H.P. last year he said he would have the but was at least a year away from have them in a size to sell.


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## NYEric (Mar 2, 2007)

THanx for the link. I will give H.P. a call and I should be in S.C. within the month, so I can get one.


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## NYEric (Mar 2, 2007)

Woohoo! I just got off the phone w/ Mr. Norton and he says a kovachii x besseae should be in flower w/in 2 weeks. I ordered one from him. I also sent in an order to Woodstream so my Phrag list will grow [as my bank account shrinks!!!].


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## Ron-NY (Mar 2, 2007)

FYI...the Peru Orchid Club has added copyright credits to my pics.


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## Candace (Mar 2, 2007)

Ron, check out the end of the thread titled Please remove me from the forum. I find it very interesting your photo is on his page as well....

Edit...I don't see any credit given to you on his website, either. Seems like your photos are really getting around!


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## isaias m rolando (Mar 2, 2007)

Do you know that members of the Portilla family travels very often to Peru with no INRENA permits to collect peruvian orchids? There are videos and Press reports of local police arresting one member of this family. 
Why I am posting this? Ask Kyle how many ilegal PKs the Portillas have in Ecuador. He sure had the oportunity to see them when he was in Ecuador.
...before I forget, you could never piss me off Kyle...you are not at my level in international presentations for orchid conservation....and I am not a Misinformed FAT ego, John M. I just wanted you to know some facts that you prefer to ignore. It is up to you. This is a free world. But there is a big, big PK black market that we all should stop, instead of trying to ignore the facts. I just want to be fair with the peruvians working with legal PK plants and hybrids, not only CJM Orchids, and some peruvian universities doing the DNA fingerprint to work for forensic International trade for orchids. Are you people afraid of this? Why? You always stated that you would like accurate info. Well, I am offering some tools and facts. If you want to ignore them, do not insult peruvians or my inteligence trying to direct attention to your coments.
Do not worry I will post recent pics of mature PK plants once I learn how to do it. I have already the pictures.
Finally I think this forum is worth. I do not care if people insult me. They just show who they are doing this...
Have a good night


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## adiaphane (Mar 2, 2007)

Isias--

I am confused. It doesn't seem like anyone is insulting you. I don't understand why there needs to be such a harsh tone, and certainly no one here is insulting Peruvians. I hope we can have a discussion without any negative undertones.


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## isaias m rolando (Mar 2, 2007)

Please explain why is it a "negative undertone" to question about some facts that appaerently you want to ignore? The AOS has already a warning and full detailed info, because they wanted to be informed about ilegal PK in the world. If you don`t want that information, please let me know. It is time everybody should know the reality about PK everywhere not only in the US. All we peruvians want is to keep Pk in the habitat, because the legal collection is already in artificial reproduction and in the proper marketing with good growers in th US and in Hawai.


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## adiaphane (Mar 2, 2007)

I think that the information can be shared without accusing people. I certainly would like to read whatever information you are willing to share. But I do not believe that harsh words need to be exchanged for that information.

We are orchid growers and conservation is a high priority. We are not robbers. I'm sure everyone here would love to protect this species in the wild. 

That being said, please, share any information you have.


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## bwester (Mar 2, 2007)

Well, I know what i'm NOT going to do to this thread.....
What is it about this plant that gets everybody's panties in a wad?


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## Ron-NY (Mar 2, 2007)

I believe part of the attitude is because this plant has been raped and pillaged from it's habitat. Although I do believe that most of the plants were removed by native Peruvians trying to make a few dollars after they found out that there is a value in this palnt. Correct me if I am wrong Isaias.


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## Ron-NY (Mar 2, 2007)

Candace said:


> Ron, check out the end of the thread titled Please remove me from the forum. I find it very interesting your photo is on his page as well....
> 
> Edit...I don't see any credit given to you on his website, either. Seems like your photos are really getting around!



Candace the frontal view with the black background is a photograph taken by Glen Decker. All other shots are mine. Peter Crozen will be posting them to his site as well with my permission and credit given.


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## John M (Mar 2, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> ...before I forget, you could never piss me off Kyle...you are not at my level in international presentations for orchid conservation....and I am not a Misinformed FAT ego, John M. I just wanted you to know some facts that you prefer to ignore.



EGO TRIP! So now, you can read my mind as well? VERY impressive!.....Except for the fact that I have NOT chosen to ignore any FACTS. I simply take offense to your attitude that you are 100% correct and anyone who dares to debate you is wrong. One thing you are not Isaias, is a "breath of fresh air".


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## John M (Mar 3, 2007)

Ron-NY said:


> I believe part of the attitude is because this plant has been raped and pillaged from it's habitat. Although I do believe that most of the plants were removed by native Peruvians trying to make a few dollars after they found out that there is a value in this palnt. Correct me if I am wrong Isaias.


Ron; That is what I've always understood as well. While the collection of wild Pk was fuled by the promise of foreign money, it was the local Peruvians who saw an opportunity and collected all the plants. It was also the Peruvian authorities who did not bother to stop this from happening. Perhaps a couple of well paid, armed guards might have helped to keep more PK in their natural habitat. Funny how there is money to pour into a government bureaucracy like INRENA, but no money to pay good wages to some well placed armed guards who's purpose is to protect this most important natural, national treasure.

Oh, and if Isaias thinks that you are wrong, he WILL correct you. Count on it!


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## isaias m rolando (Mar 3, 2007)

Ron
Yes, you are wright. Ilegal collectors of PK are mostly peruvians, that is correct. But they were mostly paid by ecuadorians (you know them very well), some europeans (you also know them) and a well known comercial grower in Lima. The market is loaded with thousands of ilegal PKs. There are already hybrids in Taiwan and Japan. This is not new. P. besseae started in the 80s, the actors of this tragedy were the same people. Yes, same traficants acting now. This is like cocaine trafic. We all now that Peru produces the coca leaves, but the big profit in drug trafic is elsewhere. Probably you don`t know that for each dollar entering to Peru for coca leaves, there are 99 dollars entering to an account in Fisrt World Banks from the cocaine markets. Globalization also includes drug trafic, and the orchid black market.
But again, if I am writing here is because there are some peruvians working in the legal side, with academic interest for new knowledge coming from the PK. We have already reports of a new habitat. We would like you all to protect this place. It is not an issue of posting gards to protect. It is more an issue of education at all levels, from ilegal collectors, to Inrena officers, politicians, comercial growers and finally good people and hobbiests like you all.
I have never considered myself an expert. I am so far to be one expert. All I did is to study at Selby Garden to handle orchid conservation proyects in my country. We did something in Macchu Picchu Sanctuary already. Now we would like to do some more with PK and other peruvian species in the habitat.
I am willing to share my information with people who would like to increase their skills growing orchids, specially phrags. For example, I have seeing one spike of PK containing 6 (yes, six!) flowers seats. When the local was asked how many flowers had he observed, the answer was 4 at the same time. If you please teach me how to post pics in the forum I can show you a picture of 2 flowers and one bud from last week PK clone named "Miluska". CJM is arriving to very fine growing conditions to be able to produce 3 flowers per spike in artificial cultivation.


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## Ron-NY (Mar 3, 2007)

Isaias I upload my photos to a Photobucket.com album and then I copy the Image link and post it here. I find that the easiest way to do it Photobucket is free. If you need help with that let me know via PM or e-mail. Would love to see the pics.


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## Heather (Mar 3, 2007)

There is also a tutorial here: 
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=178


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## isaias m rolando (Mar 3, 2007)

Ron, Heather
Pleasesend me your e-mails, so I can send you pics for you to post them, ok?
Thanks


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## Rob Zuiderwijk (Mar 4, 2007)

Ron,

Thank you for showing us photos of this new hybrid.

These are exciting times indeed. I'm looking forward for the other hybrids that are about to show their flowers. I too am anxious to see what influence Phrag. kovachii has in the hybrids with species of the other sections of the genus Phragmipedium.

Rob.


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## Heather (Mar 4, 2007)

*Photos from Isais*


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## isaias m rolando (Mar 4, 2007)

So, now I am not a "...breath of fresh air...".
How would the good people in this forum would call the attitude of smuggling PK and their hybrids to Canada, fooling Mr Peter Creuzen?
I call that inmoral...

Have a good sunday John M... is the "M" for moral....?


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## Greenthings (Mar 4, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> So, now I am not a "...breath of fresh air...".
> How would the good people in this forum would call the attitude of smuggling PK and their hybrids to Canada, fooling Mr Peter Creuzen?
> I call that inmoral...
> 
> Have a good sunday John M... is the "M" for moral....?




Isaias,

Please, leave my name out of your posts. I know John M and he is a good guy, as 
confused by your posts as most of us are. 

peter


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## Heather (Mar 4, 2007)

OMG. Enough of the DRAMA! 
can we talk about the plants please?? No one is even going to see the photos I posted for Isaias because we continue to dwell on the drama! Crazy. 

honestly....


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## isaias m rolando (Mar 4, 2007)

sorry, my appologies for all good people having a good time with the pics.
But please, do not provoque me. I have plenty of information to show who are the ones insulting peruvians in the legal bussines and who are the ones suporting the ilegal trade...
more pictures soon...
next is PK growing as an epiphyte in the habitat...


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## isaias m rolando (Mar 4, 2007)

sorry Peter
I thought you always wanted to expose the facts...my big mistake if not the case. My appologies again to you and all the friends in the legal bussines.


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## Ron-NY (Mar 4, 2007)

Nice Pics Isiais!! I, for one, am interested in hearing more of the kovachii saga.


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## isaias m rolando (Mar 4, 2007)

Thank you Ron
All the passion involved with PK saga...is it really worth?
We all want to enjoy the beauty of nature depicted in this wonderful orchid
Glad that I can share this with you all...


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## PHRAG (Mar 4, 2007)

> I have plenty of information to show who are the ones insulting peruvians in the legal bussines and who are the ones suporting the ilegal trade...



Isaias,

Please, share with us this information.


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## John M (Mar 4, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> I have plenty of information to show who are the ones insulting peruvians in the legal bussines and who are the ones suporting the ilegal trade...



Yes Isaias; Do tell......You keep accusing people of choosing to ignore the truth. So please, share the truth with us all.


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## Ron-NY (Mar 4, 2007)

I am glad to see that a well grown species of kovachii can be multifloral. That gives hope to these hybrids that they will have more than one flower once the plant is mature.:clap:


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## SlipperFan (Mar 4, 2007)

Heather said:


>


Don't you just love those fat buds???


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## Heather (Mar 4, 2007)

Yes, but that downward stance would have me a little worried...


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## SlipperFan (Mar 4, 2007)

Maybe they perk up as the bud develops?


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## PHRAG (Mar 4, 2007)

Oh gawd, tell me you aren't already applying judging standards to them. 

:evil:


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## Heather (Mar 4, 2007)

John, are you on a tear again? oke: 


and NO, I just think the habit is interesting. Leaning down like that, a 7" flower could, well, fall right on off! 

And people say size doesn't matter.


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## Greenthings (Mar 5, 2007)

Phragmipedium Haley Decker

Congratulations are in place for Peru's legal Pk nursery, Centro de Jardineria Manrique. Congratulations to Alfredo Manrique, Glen Decker, and Fritz Schomberg, who's combined efforts produced this Pk hybrid


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## SlipperFan (Mar 5, 2007)

For sure.
The orchid world just got a little brighter!


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## isaias m rolando (Mar 5, 2007)

I will like to extend congratulations also for Mr Manuel Camacho, collector of PKs for legal permits Nº 1 and 3. For Miluska Damian, Ms Sc and Biologist, conducting the lab at CJM Orchids and fellow at UF at Gainsville for DNA research with PK and other peruvian phrags. Also instrumental in doing the first 4 hybrids now in the market. To Angela Mirro, Dr Harold Koopowitz and all the members of the first PK botanical expedition and legal collection with permit Nº 1. 
Finally to thanks God for the wonderful oportunity for legal groups to work together and offer the orchid comunity the results of their fine work...


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