# Are Smaller Seedlings Worth Keeping?



## Happypaphy7 (Jan 9, 2015)

I am posting a picture of three seedlings that I potted up individually earlier in the summer. I had a little over 30 seedlings and divided them into three groups according to their size. Large, not so large, and small. I did throw away super tiny ones, about 4 seedlings I think. Not too many casualties.

For reference, the pots have 3 inch diameter.
The smaller two plants are from the small group and the other one is from the not so large group.

Now, I wonder if the smallest seedlings are worth keeping long term because I read somewhere that the largest seedlings that grow the best and bloom the earliest are usually the best of the crop.
For those who has experience with lots of seedlings, is that statistically true?

I wouldn't mind keeping them all and see how they all do in the end, but if the smallest ones are not worth the time and effort, then I would rather save space, time and energy with some other stuff for the fun of having more varieties. 

Thanks in advance!


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## Linus_Cello (Jan 9, 2015)

If you have space, yes.


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## Bjorn (Jan 9, 2015)

What is it? Malipoense? 
Generally the fast growers are faster and get bigger. But someone said on this forum that slower plants sometimes give better flowers so....


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 9, 2015)

It has 25% mali in it. It is Helen Congleton.
It is Flower quality is my main concern.

I have seen your pictures. You seem to grow many plants of the same kind, and very well at that! I'm jealous! 
What is your opinion or observation based on your first hand experience??


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 9, 2015)

Linus_Cello said:


> If you have space, yes.



Space is precious in NYC!


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## Bjorn (Jan 9, 2015)

Thanks, generally the fast growers are so much faster than the rest so.....I am not certain that its worth keeping the runts. I do it though, cannot let them go simply. Time will show if the slow ones yield good flowers.


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## eggshells (Jan 9, 2015)

If its a rare plant I will keep it even if its a small one. If its easy to acquire I prefer multigrowth plants. If its not a multi growth. I will wait until it becomes available. 

Surely it will be less time to find a multi growth plant than to watch it grow in to one. :rollhappy:

Seriously, I try to be patient and picky these days. Mainly because my space is very limited.


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## gonewild (Jan 9, 2015)

Often the slow growers produce a unique flowers differing from the others and often they are very nice. Also these will sometimes be the more compact growth habit plants. Unless they just are not growing at all I would keep them.


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## Clark (Jan 9, 2015)

I would hold on to them for a year. 
If you don't want them, put them in a box and I'll give you my address.


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## fibre (Jan 9, 2015)

Not always the big seedlings are the first to bloom.

For example: 
I have 100 seedlings of Paph. Sandro Botticelli. About 15 of these are flowering or in bud. 4 of the 15 have a leave span less than half of the others and are in the very first group to bloom! 

An other thing is that not always the big seedlings in the flask are the best growers in your growing area. Some adapt easily others don't. 
Sometimes the fast growing seedling are affected by rot but the others not...

IMO you can't know for sure if the speedy ones at the start are the winners at the end of the marathon.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 9, 2015)

Thank you for all the input!

Fibre- Thanks! True, some of the biggest ones out of the flask really didn't like getting out of the flask and the new leaves were smaller, while some are getting bigger as they should.
hmmm I guess I'll have to just keep them all. hahaha


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## NYEric (Jan 9, 2015)

I'll take them. There's always room for more orchids! :crazy:


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## PaphMadMan (Jan 9, 2015)

In a commercial operation, time and space are money. Extra time spent with small seedlings taking up space and needing care is a significant expense. Or, if you're trying to raise hundreds of seedlings on a hobby level you probably need to consider some triage as well unless you have the rare commodity of unlimited space. 

On a smaller hobby scale, raising a few flasks of seedlings, that one compot of runts from each flask is your insurance. Unless space is a real issue those few small pots cost little, and may provide trading or gift plants if you don't need them yourself in the long run. Especially if the cross turns out exceptionally good you'll appreciate having them. I'd keep them.


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## consettbay2003 (Jan 10, 2015)

I know that Ratcliffe's believe that sometimes the slower growers produce the better quality flowers. This might be due to the fact that they might be tetraploids.
You need to determine whether they are slower growers or just runts of the litter.


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## Rick (Jan 10, 2015)

The other thing not mentioned so far is that the slower ones are not adapting to what you are offering rather than blaming the slow growth on the nature of the plant.

I changed how I applied fertilizer years ago and lots of the old runt plants took off, and within a whole compot I now see less variation in size.

So I don't pitch my runts, but use them as learning opportunities.

(and sometimes they'll stay small no matter what:wink


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 10, 2015)

So, for what kind of fertilizer did you use to make them happier??


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## Rick (Jan 10, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> So, for what kind of fertilizer did you use to make them happier??




Almost no fertilizer just water


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 10, 2015)

??? really?? for how long?


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## Rick (Jan 10, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> ??? really?? for how long?




Happy

Go ahead and use the search function to read through the threads on nutrition. There will be a lot to catch up on. 

I've been pushing the low K concept since 2011, and refined to run N strength down to a max of 5 ppm N applied daily.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 10, 2015)

I stopped reading that thread with so much confusion. lol
I'll go see again, but I'm just a simple guy who mixes locally bought liquid concentrate fertilizer with my tap water.


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## fibre (Jan 11, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> I stopped reading that thread with so much confusion. lol
> ... but I'm just a simple guy who mixes locally bought liquid concentrate fertilizer with my tap water.



That's a good way to get healthy Paphs and be a happy non confused Paph lover


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## Rick (Jan 11, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> I stopped reading that thread with so much confusion. lol
> I'll go see again, but I'm just a simple guy who mixes locally bought liquid concentrate fertilizer with my tap water.



Then I'd suggest doing 1/10th the rate you are presently doing and see what happens.:wink:


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## consettbay2003 (Jan 11, 2015)

These seedlings all come from the same flask. They represent the largest (middle back is in low bud) and the smallest. They have all had the same growing conditions. I'll probably discard the smaller ones.


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## NYEric (Jan 11, 2015)

I'll send you my address!


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 11, 2015)

fibre said:


> That's a good way to get healthy Paphs and be a happy non confused Paph lover



Thanks! 
Do you use tap water in Germany? hard water, yeah?


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 11, 2015)

Rick said:


> Then I'd suggest doing 1/10th the rate you are presently doing and see what happens.:wink:



What I'm currently using is 7-5-6 with micro elements, and I'm already using it about 1/2 strength. I thought it was too weak, but I guess not.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 11, 2015)

consettbay2003 said:


> These seedlings all come from the same flask. They represent the largest (middle back is in low bud) and the smallest. They have all had the same growing conditions. I'll probably discard the smaller ones.



Oh, wow~
How long have these guys been out of the flask??
Thanks for the picture comparison!


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## Migrant13 (Jan 11, 2015)

Great thread. Soaking it all in.


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## fibre (Jan 11, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Thanks!
> Do you use tap water in German? hard water, yeah?



This - exactly.


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## Rick (Jan 11, 2015)

Spicerianum seedlings 




Wardii seedlings

Both out of flask about March 2013.

Not much size variation among the spicerianum seedlings except for those pulled out of the compot into individual pots.

The wardii have much wider variation in size. But also looking at leaf color there's a lot of variation too. I pulled out the nicest dark leaf and pale leaf versions. The dark leaf has grown a lot more than the pale leaf version. 

So in these two groups of plants there may be a lot more genetic predilection for size variants in the wardii, but not for the spicerianum.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 11, 2015)

fibre said:


> This - exactly.



Good to know!


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 11, 2015)

Those look so cute and so nice! 
That largest wardii plant has very beautifully marked leaves.

So, what do you feed them?
just a simple version without making my head spin. :wink:





Rick said:


> Spicerianum seedlings
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Rick (Jan 11, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Those look so cute and so nice!
> That largest wardii plant has very beautifully marked leaves.
> 
> So, what do you feed them?
> just a simple version without making my head spin. :wink:



They get splashed daily with a weak solution of K lite, my Mg/PO4/SO4 solution and diluted well water.

N is about 5ppm so if 1/2 tsp per gal was 80 to 100 ppm N, then down to the equivalent of 1/32 to 1/40th of a tsp of dry K-lite. Since I don't have measuring spoons that small I make up a more concentrated stock and dip out a tablespoon/gallon.

So what is the N per teaspoon/gal of your fert of choice? 

If you use 1/4 tsp/gallon then try 1/4 tsp per 5 or 10 gallons.


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## Rick (Jan 11, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Those look so cute and so nice!
> That largest wardii plant has very beautifully marked leaves.



But also getting back to your original point of big and little babies, that big dark plant wasn't pulled out of the compot because it was the biggest, but because it had the darkest foliage. Same for the other extreme light plant. Before going into the individual baskets they were about average for the larger plants in the compot at the time. 

Going into the baskets they are growing faster than the ones left behind in the compot.

This is probably more obvious for the spicerianums. The two I pulled out weren't obviously the biggest, but I found 2 nice ones that had the most basal leaf pigmentation. The reason they are so much bigger now compared to the ones still in the compot would be due to cultural differences rather than genetic differences.

In years past I could only count on a small percentage of really good doers to move out of compot and a bunch of stumpies. However, even moving into their own pots wouldn't necessarily improve their odds, in fact I'd end up with more losses as they came out of compot, than just leaving them in compot.

So after 3 or so years I'd generally end up with all the stumpies anyway while most of the faster growing ones would crap out from the individual attention.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 11, 2015)

Rick said:


> They get splashed daily with a weak solution of K lite, my Mg/PO4/SO4 solution and diluted well water.
> 
> N is about 5ppm so if 1/2 tsp per gal was 80 to 100 ppm N, then down to the equivalent of 1/32 to 1/40th of a tsp of dry K-lite. Since I don't have measuring spoons that small I make up a more concentrated stock and dip out a tablespoon/gallon.
> 
> ...



I use 7-5-6 fertilizer at the moment. I use a little less than 1/4 tsp per gallon. 

By the way, Mg/PO4/SO4, do you add PO4 to Epsom Salt??
I also have Epsom Salt, which I have only used about twice, but the package is still sitting around somewhere. 

What are your seedlings potted that they are ok being watered daily and not rot out??


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 11, 2015)

I wonder if it's the crowing, then?
I read that certain plants may release chemicals to attack others, sometimes even those of the same species. 
Or just the more space allows each plant to do better?

I see this all the time when I used to garden with annuals.
The more space they got, the bigger the plants became compared to the ones that were planted too close to one another.

In the compot, I always have a few that are much bigger than the rest no matter what. This might be genetic, right?




Rick said:


> But also getting back to your original point of big and little babies, that big dark plant wasn't pulled out of the compot because it was the biggest, but because it had the darkest foliage. Same for the other extreme light plant. Before going into the individual baskets they were about average for the larger plants in the compot at the time.
> 
> Going into the baskets they are growing faster than the ones left behind in the compot.
> 
> ...


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## gonewild (Jan 11, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> I use 7-5-6 fertilizer at the moment. I use a little less than 1/4 tsp per gallon.



You need to increase the Nitrogen percentage (ratio) regardless of the concentration you apply.


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## Rick (Jan 11, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> I use 7-5-6 fertilizer at the moment. I use a little less than 1/4 tsp per gallon.
> 
> By the way, Mg/PO4/SO4, do you add PO4 to Epsom Salt??
> I also have Epsom Salt, which I have only used about twice, but the package is still sitting around somewhere.
> ...



Actually I add some phosphoric acid to some Magox (milk of magnnesia) to produce Mg PO4 with a pH of about 6.0. Then I add more epsom salt on top of that. It would probably be easier for you to get the Dynagrow Bloom Boost Mag Pro. (which is the same thing except includes a dash of potassium nitrate).

There's several potting mixes and systems in these pics. The sphagnum, chc, gravel, baskets, pots, aircone pots, mix n'match.
when you feed at very low N concentrations with very low K the mixes hardly rot, and the roots are very high in calcium and are disease (rot) resistant.


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## Rick (Jan 11, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> I wonder if it's the crowing, then?
> I read that certain plants may release chemicals to attack others, sometimes even those of the same species.
> Or just the more space allows each plant to do better?
> 
> ...



At this point I wouldn't be surprised if crowding is an issue, and water competition is slowing down the tight pots. But you can see (especially in the case of the spicers) that they are all about the same size within each group based on how long they came out of the compot. Also note how crowded that compot is AFTER taking out about a dozen to go into individual pots (I've also gifted a few of the ones that went into the 2 inch pots) so they don't seem to be poisoning themselves out.

In the past it was pretty normal to get a few huge with the majority being runts. Nowadays its more normal to get the majority growing at a pretty good even rate, and only a few runts.


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## Rick (Jan 11, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> I use 7-5-6 fertilizer at the moment. I use a little less than 1/4 tsp per gallon.



OK 1/4 tsp/gall of a 7% N fert is 23ppm N

If you used a heaping 1/4 tsp per 5 gallon bucket then you be under 5 ppm N.

If you mix this in a moderately hard tap water the calcium and magnesum will be up in good ranges (probably around 20+ ppm Ca) and a tiny dash of epsom salt would be helpful.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 11, 2015)

Thanks for all the input, Rick.

I might try that.
but here's one thing I keep thinking.
So you see better results with such low amount of fertilizer, but did you see any effect of overfertilization in the past before switching to this new fertilizing regimen? 

Because I have apparently been giving my orchids way too much according to this, although I have always thought I was being very "gentle".
Yet, I don't think I've seen some huge lush green vegetation or fertilizer burn at all. 
Maybe orchids do not respond to fertilization in a very sensitive manner??

Anyways, I'd like to try this very low fertilization this year and see what I get.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 11, 2015)

gonewild said:


> You need to increase the Nitrogen percentage (ratio) regardless of the concentration you apply.



I've always used "balanced" or nearly balanced fertilizers.
I know there are ones like 30-10-10.
Well, this thread is already going into fertilizer thread. 

Do you really see difference with fertilizers with high N?


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## Rick (Jan 12, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Thanks for all the input, Rick.
> 
> I might try that.
> but here's one thing I keep thinking.
> ...



Your Welcome

Actually you kind of answered the question with your question. 

I didn't go to this new regime because I was happy with the results of the old regime.

So the reason I questioned my old high feed regime was because I got crappy results. (Which I would include high rates of runts, poor survivorship, slow growth......).

I'm an aquatic toxicologist by trade and noted that the basic concentrations of N and K we throw on our plants are lethal to sensitive aquatic organisms, and cause environmental degradation in many ecosystems (like the coral reefs)
Further research indicated that the concentrations of N and K in the plants native environment are a fraction of what we typically apply to our plants.

Further research indicated that leaf tissue concentrations (particularly the ratio of K and Ca) are reversed in wild plants compared to cultivated plants fed a typical high NPK rate.

We always say that "Mother Nature Knows Best" but for some reason we never follow that advice when throwing chemicals on our plants. 

So I've been giving Mother Nature a chance for the last 3 years, and I've not been disappointed.


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## gonewild (Jan 12, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> I've always used "balanced" or nearly balanced fertilizers.
> I know there are ones like 30-10-10.
> Well, this thread is already going into fertilizer thread.
> 
> Do you really see difference with fertilizers with high N?



Yes you will see a difference with a higher nitrogen ratio.
Not saying to use more fertilizer just a higher percentage of nitrogen compared to other nutrients.
You can get the same result by lowering the percentage of the other nutrients which is basically what K-lite does.


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