# Problems growing mutiflorals



## Markedg (Jun 11, 2013)

Hi all, I live in Dublin,Ireland. I have spoken to caper in the UK but I would like to get others opinions as there are a lot of well grown plants on this site. I have most problems with paph seedlings, especially multiflorals. I have bought plants from a well known paph vendor in the USA over the last few years. I was told that the plants roots would die and they would regrow. Is this correct? Quite a few of this vendors plants I have had to bin and they were not cheap. I suspect it is a combination of bad or few roots and my overwatering. The plants look healthy but some have very little or no roots. I have repotted them in orchiata about a month or two ago.
I have a 10 x 12 ft greenhouse covered with a 50% shade cloth. I have a fan running and I am having issues keeping the humidity high enough. I have no issues with my cattleyas. What am I doing wrong? How do I get these paphs to grow roots? I am at my wits end and part of me would like to bin the lot. Any suggestions as to what I am doing wrong, would be greatly appreciated. TIA and sorry for the long post.


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## SlipperFan (Jun 11, 2013)

Not a long post at all.

Are you fertilizing? If so, with what? If you are having trouble getting roots, you may want to consider Rick's basket culture.


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## Stone (Jun 11, 2013)

Hi Markedg. I also buy all my paphs as seedlings. Its either that or go without!
I'm not sure how small yours are, but after buying 200 different seedlings over the last couple of years, I have come to realise the single most important thing to get roots going is heat regardless of the species. (along with plenty of air and humidity) The last thing you need to worry about is fertilizing. If you can set up a small area with a minimum of 20 degrees C and about 85-90% humidity with a fan 24/7, all your plants will start to throw out roots. THEN you can start to use very dilute feed. If you can get them to dry out in 2 or 3 days from the heat and air, you are on the right track! 
It took me a long time to get it though my head that the reason the plants struggle to put out roots is a lack of heat! Most of these things experience very high temps during the growing season in the habitat, and ALL like it when they're small.
Excuse the long winded reply. I'm in a typing mood today:rollhappy:

Check this out. I cannot recommend something like this highly enough!
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29925


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## mrhappyrotter (Jun 11, 2013)

If the plants have no roots or the roots are in poor shape when you get them, you should stop buying from that vendor, well known or not. If the roots are healthy when you get them, but they die afterwards, then you probably have a cultural issue you need to address. It's true that roots die off naturally and get replaced as the plant grows (same with the leaves), but it's going to be a gradual occurrence and you'd expect to find additional new roots growing in. If most or all of them die, then you have a problem.

I totally understand the tendency to over water. I have (maybe I should say had) the same issue when I was beginning. In the years since, I've made some changes that have drastically improved my success. First, I sold, gave away and killed off most of my paphs and instead focused on phrags, which I like a little more anyway. LOL Second, I switched to a much lighter, airier mix of sponge rock (large/medium perlite), large/medium charcoal and rockwool with a few additives here and there. Third, I started using those transparent pots that help me gauge moisture levels and root health in the pots, and thus have a better visual indication that keeps me from watering too much.

Temperatures could be one issue (as discussed above), but I grow indoors, so that's never a concern for me. Water quality can affect root growth and health as well. Coupled with that would be fertilizer & feeding rates. You have to be careful not to overdo it, otherwise salts and nutrients can build up to the point of being toxic -- remember a little bit is good, but too much of anything is bad.

Finally comes the snake oil. Okay, so maybe not snake oil, but a lot of us use products like seaweed extract, Superthrive, and other additives that contain nutrients, vitamins and hormones that can help stimulate root growth and/or support root health. I'm not going to say I'm 100% convinced they've made a significant improvement on plant health, but they don't seem to hurt (other than the dent in my orchid purchasing budget) when used reasonably.


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## mrhappyrotter (Jun 11, 2013)

One other thing to mention. I'm not going to name names, but I also used to buy seedlings from one of the better known U.S. paph vendors, but eventually said "no more".

The plants would always have great root systems and immaculate leaves, but outside of the grower's greenhouse environment and care, they would almost always go into a slow decline and eventually die. At first, I thought it was just my lack of skill and experience. However, after having success with plants from other sources and hearing from others who experienced the same difficulties with seedlings from that seller, I realized it was just better not to be tempted by his stock, regardless of the reason I had no luck with those plants.

The point being, it may be time to look around at other options in terms of sources for your paph seedlings.


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## Justin (Jun 11, 2013)

agree with all above, esp. mr happyrotter. if the plants are coming to you without roots, then the seller should not be selling them.

if you start with quality plants they should be easy to grow.


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## Stone (Jun 11, 2013)

Justin, I agree with you but in my case, with the 200 or so plants I mentioned I would not be exaggerating when I say that NOT ONE of them had good roots when they came to me. Many had one root only some had two and none at all were established. These plants have come from at least 5 different vendors as well as ebay. My problem is that I quickly realised that if I wanted to grow paphs I would have to put up with what was available to me and come up with a way to recondition them so I could continue to enjoy growing them. I have no other choice. I think most sellers here either don't know or don't care how to grow them and because demand is very high and supply is low, the seedlings are shipped out before they are ready. (if they ever will be) If I sent them back because of bad roots I would have nothing!
I don't know what the situation is in Ireland, but buying advanced or established species here is just not an option.


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## emydura (Jun 11, 2013)

The first thing I'd recommend is buy plants from a different vendour. It is pretty obvious who you are talking about and you are not the only person on this forum who has had problems with this nursery. If you are starting out with plants with no roots then you are really up against it. It can take years to get them going again, if at all. I got 10 large multi-florals last year that had no roots and it has been a real battle. A few have put on good roots but some have not progressed at all. Fortunately they are all FS and are putting out new growths, so that should help them establish new roots.

Overall I think the multi-florals are the 2nd easiest Paph group to grow behind the Paphiopedilum group (insigne, henryanum etc.). As Mick said they do like warmer temperatures. You don't really want the minimun going below 15oC. I'd recommend starting off with big multi-growth plants from where you shouldn't have too much trouble growing them. They are a bit more robust.


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## Markedg (Jun 12, 2013)

Thanks all. I just thought it was me. I have gotten some insigne's from garden centres, with no problem. They flower every winter and on one I had 2 flowers on it. When I saw a post on this site about this issue, he gave a long reply and the 4 plants I received had the best roots I have ever seen on them!

I will have a look at Ricks post and see if I can get baskets here in europe. Some of his are growing fine and have multiple growths starting. It is very disheartening to look forward to getting the plants, thinking they were doing well, just to then realise they have very few roots, and some of them go downhill. It is also the amount of money spent on them. So I will have to say, I will not be buying anymore from this vendor.


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## Brabantia (Jun 12, 2013)

Stone said:


> Hi Markedg. I also buy all my paphs as seedlings. Its either that or go without!
> I'm not sure how small yours are, but after buying 200 different seedlings over the last couple of years, I have come to realise the single most important thing to get roots going is heat regardless of the species. (along with plenty of air and humidity) The last thing you need to worry about is fertilizing. If you can set up a small area with a minimum of 20 degrees C and about 85-90% humidity with a fan 24/7, all your plants will start to throw out roots. THEN you can start to use very dilute feed. If you can get them to dry out in 2 or 3 days from the heat and air, you are on the right track!
> It took me a long time to get it though my head that the reason the plants struggle to put out roots is a lack of heat! Most of these things experience very high temps during the growing season in the habitat, and ALL like it when they're small.
> Excuse the long winded reply. I'm in a typing mood today:rollhappy:
> ...


Good response Stone and I agree with it. And which kind of fertilizer would you recommend and at which concentration? Must the fertilizer be applied in foliar or on the substrate?
Concerning the heating: an excellent solution consists in warming the ambient air around the pots by means of a heating cable (as that used for terrariums) placed under these.


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## The Mutant (Jun 12, 2013)

emydura said:


> Overall I think the multi-florals are the 2nd easiest Paph group to grow behind the Paphiopedilum group (insigne, henryanum etc.). As Mick said they do like warmer temperatures. You don't really want the minimun going below 15oC. I'd recommend starting off with big multi-growth plants from where you shouldn't have too much trouble growing them. They are a bit more robust.


Aren't sigmatopetalums the easiest group? Or have I maybe misunderstood something again.


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## emydura (Jun 12, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> Aren't sigmatopetalums the easiest group? Or have I maybe misunderstood something again.



Certainly not for me. Not even close.


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## Paphman910 (Jun 12, 2013)

Sounds like your greenhouse is suited to cool growing orchids since Paph insigne grows well. What are your day temperatures during day and night during summer and winter?

Do you grow Cattleya dowiana? If you can't grow this one, your chances of growing mulitfloral paphs are not good!


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## The Mutant (Jun 12, 2013)

emydura said:


> Certainly not for me. Not even close.


I suppose we all find different genera easy or difficult depending on our conditions and how we treat the plants.


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## NYEric (Jun 12, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> Aren't sigmatopetalums the easiest group?



yes.


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## annab (Jun 12, 2013)

I would like tell you my experience.
I purchased my plant from many ebay seller and not too,four nursery was from Germany, one from Uk ,well I have never totally satisfied of the condition of the roots and also leaf span ,its always more short of what the seller said ,but for me is very hard to complain ,I have never leave a negative feedback ,I have always thought that may be was normal for these seedling to have poor roots or in same cases have no roots,I'am sorry to complain,I don't want destroy the fame of anybody ,although I think that this is a wrong position.
In have had HCM with stalk and flower dry ,without that seller tell me nothing.
Parishii without roots only two and rot.
Delrosii with cochineal and a very pitiful condition.
always tiny plants ,never more big of my expectations.
now I have ordered 1 Michael Koopovitz and 1 Sanderianum from a France nursery .I hope that all goes well,and at least now I will satisfied .
pray for me ,I have no much money to spend for now, in Italy there is a great economic crisis.
bye bye,Anna


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## Secundino (Jun 12, 2013)

Hi Anna,
so sorry to read that, but yes, sometimes we get unhealthy plants for good money. There are two german nurseries I won't buy from again, on the other hand, I've had bad and good deliveries from the same seller, even bad and good plants in one sending. 
Up to now I've had very good experience with Claessen Orchideeën in NL and Elsner Orchideen in GER, but also with nardottoecapello.it . Have you tried them, too? Would keep the transport costs lower, at least. 
ciao, take care


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## goldenrose (Jun 12, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> Aren't sigmatopetalums the easiest group? Or have I maybe misunderstood something again.


Interesting comments you're getting! I find that some in the group are easy but there are some that certainly challenge me! Is it the individual plant? Me? My conditions? I have no idea but some just aren't appealing to me either. I'd have to say on a whole, I'd try hybrids of the group first.


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## Trithor (Jun 12, 2013)

goldenrose said:


> Interesting comments you're getting! I find that some in the group are easy but there are some that certainly challenge me! Is it the individual plant? Me? My conditions? I have no idea but some just aren't appealing to me either. I'd have to say on a whole, I'd try hybrids of the group first.



Safe and logical advice to be sure!


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## Markedg (Jun 12, 2013)

Paphman, no I do not grow that particular cattleya, but I do grow lots of cattleyas with no problems. maxima,mossiae,purpurata. They grow and flower well. I can grow phrags with NP and I have quite a big one in a soda bottle.


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## Stone (Jun 12, 2013)

Brabantia said:


> > which kind of fertilizer would you recommend and at which concentration? Must the fertilizer be applied in foliar or on the substrate?
> 
> 
> AT the moment for the plants with few roots I'm using plain water 2 times, kelp once, plain water 2 times and organic fermented fish at a VERY weak concentration in a rotation. I also warm the water to about 20C and water everything leaves and all. The biggest issue is having the patience to wait for the pots to dry out before watering/feeding! But I really think its the heat/humidity and air which is making the most difference. Everything has picked up from goyefroyaes and bellatulums to argus and hangianum. As David mentioned, the multis seem to be the fastest/easiest. Actually I was inspired after seeing Paphmans success with his Dunkels.http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19671&highlight=dunkel&page=4


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## Stone (Jun 12, 2013)

Brabantia said:


> > which kind of fertilizer would you recommend and at which concentration? Must the fertilizer be applied in foliar or on the substrate?
> 
> 
> AT the moment for the plants with few roots I'm using plain water 2 times, kelp once, plain water 2 times and organic fermented fish at a VERY weak concentration in a rotation. I also warm the water to about 20C and water everything leaves and all. The biggest issue is having the patience to wait for the pots to dry out before watering/feeding! But I really think its the heat/humidity and air which is making the most difference. Everything has picked up from goyefroyaes and bellatulums to argus and hangianum. As David mentioned, the multis seem to be the fastest/easiest.


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## emydura (Jun 13, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> I suppose we all find different genera easy or difficult depending on our conditions and how we treat the plants.



Yes, but I think most people would find the Paphiopedilum group the easiest to care for. There are a few tough species (faiirieanum, charlesworthii, tigrinum for example) but the vast majority are some of the easiest orchids of all to grow. Species like insigne, villosum, gratrixianum and spicerianum can be grown by just about anyone under a wide range of conditions. They can be grown quite cool, so can handle life outside in the back yard. They multiply very fast and can reach specimen size in a short period of time. No matter how much abuse and neglect they receive, they keep on keeping on.

Compare that to the sigmatopetalums which require warm temperatures and high humidity, conditions that most of us can only provide in specialised glasshouses. Most of these species do not clump well and rarely increase to more than a handful of growths. I think most of the general public would struggle to keep these species alive for any considerable time.


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## The Mutant (Jun 13, 2013)

emydura said:


> Yes, but I think most people would find the Paphiopedilum group the easiest to care for. There are a few tough species (faiirieanum, charlesworthii, tigrinum for example) but the vast majority are some of the easiest orchids of all to grow. Species like insigne, villosum, gratrixianum and spicerianum can be grown by just about anyone under a wide range of conditions. They can be grown quite cool, so can handle life outside in the back yard. They multiply very fast and can reach specimen size in a short period of time. No matter how much abuse and neglect they receive, they keep on keeping on.
> 
> Compare that to the sigmatopetalums which require warm temperatures and high humidity, conditions that most of us can only provide in specialised glasshouses. Most of these species do not clump well and rarely increase to more than a handful of growths. I think most of the general public would struggle to keep these species alive for any considerable time.


Ah, now that you say it... You have a very good point actually. I do hope that many of my sigmatopetalums will get more growths and stay with me for a long, long time. 

How is fairrieanum a bit more difficult? I have one and I keep it together with the rest of the paphiopedilums and it grows like a little weed. Is it difficult to bloom?


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## annab (Jun 13, 2013)

emydura said:


> > the vast majority are some of the easiest orchids of all to grow. Species like insigne, villosum, gratrixianum and spicerianum can be grown by just about anyone under a wide range of conditions.
> 
> 
> just those who do not like me(I like but not so much)
> ...


I am not sure have understood,David does you say that paphs multifloral without greenhouse hardly flowering or grow up?


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## The Mutant (Jun 13, 2013)

annab said:


> I am not sure have understood,David does you say that paphs multifloral without greenhouse hardly flowering or grow up?


No, he's talking about sigmatopetalums, barbata types. I'm sorry, it's my fault that this thread veered off of multifloras. 

I have multiflora Paphs and they grow for me even though I don't have a greenhouse. If I can get them to flower though, that's a whole different topic.


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## annab (Jun 13, 2013)

Thanks The Mutant, I misunderstood ,now I know that David have talk about sigmatopetalums barbata types and that multifloral have nothing to do.
damn ignorance.
Anna


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## SlipperFan (Jun 13, 2013)

annab said:


> Thanks The Mutant, I misunderstood ,now I know that David have talk about sigmatopetalums barbata types and that multifloral have nothing to do.
> damn ignorance.
> Anna


But that's why we are all here -- to learn and share...


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## emydura (Jun 15, 2013)

The Mutant said:


> Ah,
> How is fairrieanum a bit more difficult? I have one and I keep it together with the rest of the paphiopedilums and it grows like a little weed. Is it difficult to bloom?



This can be a tough one to keep alive long term. They can grow and flower well initially but then slowly decline. This is my experience and others as well. Maybe K-lite will help with this. 

Hopefully yours will continue to grow like a weed as it is a magnificent species. Best of luck.


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## The Mutant (Jun 15, 2013)

emydura said:


> This can be a tough one to keep alive long term. They can grow and flower well initially but then slowly decline. This is my experience and others as well. Maybe K-lite will help with this.
> 
> Hopefully yours will continue to grow like a weed as it is a magnificent species. Best of luck.


Thank you, i need all the luck I can get since it seems I have some deficiency issue with the entire collection.


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## Paphman910 (Jun 15, 2013)

Markedg said:


> Paphman, no I do not grow that particular cattleya, but I do grow lots of cattleyas with no problems. maxima,mossiae,purpurata. They grow and flower well. I can grow phrags with NP and I have quite a big one in a soda bottle.



Sounds like your greenhouse is in the cool to intermediate temperature range. I bet Miltonopsis grows well for you!


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