# Cyp. acaule in woods



## DukeBoxer (May 29, 2007)

Here are some pics of C. acaule that me and my wife found in West Woods trails in Guilford, CT. We actually came across the first ones when my wife saw a plant in the middle of the trail that someone ripped out of the ground. It came out with no roots and they just threw it down, didn't even bother to take the flower, it was still attached. Man that really pisses me off to see that!





I love this one, with the shadow in the background. My wife has a good eye




This one looks like it couldn't decide whether to lift the petals or let them droop, so it did both




This one I found (My wife saw all the rest) It was all alone, the other ones had other plants around them but none with flowers.

Enjoy!

-Josh


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## cdub (May 29, 2007)

I love seeing photos of C. acaule from different places. Some bloom with the leaves still pleated together, some with leaves flat, some with flower held very high, some very short so the flower is barely above the leaves, some pouches hang straight down, some project outward, some are dark pink, some are light pink.

I would search around a bit more Josh. There are probably other companion orchids hiding around your lady's slippers!


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## Marco (May 29, 2007)

great photo of a great cyp


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## DukeBoxer (May 29, 2007)

Yeah I know, we were actually in a hurry to get home for our dog. We were in some trails near where we are living and found some Goodyera pubescens, along with some seedling C. acaule. The goodyeras I found about 5 years ago but the cyps weren't there or at least I never saw them. What I really want to find is a habeneria. Around our house I have found Coral Root and Epipactis heleborine but thats about all I have ever found around here.

-Josh


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## Ron-NY (May 29, 2007)

nice finds...I was hoping to get a hike in this past weekend but it never came to fruition


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## cdub (May 29, 2007)

I love Epipactis heleborine. It is the first US native orchid I ever saw _in situ_.


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## TADD (May 29, 2007)

Mine didn't survive my heat here! Great to see them in situ!


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## cdub (May 29, 2007)

cdub said:


> I love Epipactis heleborine. It is the first US native orchid I ever saw _in situ_.



EDIT: Epipactis heleborine is NATURALIZED from Europe, not native. Phew! Wanted to clear that botanical slip-up before anyone caught it.


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## Heather (May 29, 2007)

DukeBoxer said:


> Here are some pics of C. acaule that me and my wife found in West Woods trails in Guilford, CT. We actually came across the first ones when my wife saw a plant in the middle of the trail that someone ripped out of the ground. It came out with no roots and they just threw it down, didn't even bother to take the flower, it was still attached. Man that really pisses me off to see that!



Me too! 
I went nosing around the old barn today to no avail. Gonna get out on the trail tomorrow when my boss is in a meeting and do some Cyp. hunting.


Is that your boxer, Josh? I love boxers! We adore critter photos here too....oke:


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## DukeBoxer (May 30, 2007)

Yup, thats him, Duke. I got him in Costa Rica for $250, a lot cheaper than up here and he has all his papers, like the AKC but it's called ACC (the Costa Rican AKC). He's my first dog and is really great tempered. Everyone in my family complements on how well behaved he is.


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## NYEric (May 30, 2007)

Nice fotos. You're lucky to have those near you. Enjoy.


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## likespaphs (May 31, 2007)

i went to some friends' house last night and they have lots on their property. i even pollinated a few! i'm so excited to go back and check on them.


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## TheLorax (Aug 5, 2007)

You all are probably going to be irritated with me but I've got quite a few Epipactis helleborine popping up here and I hand pull them and waste them when I find them. They're beautiful and all but they have naturalized in 25 states and I don't want them getting a foothold on my property.

Now here's where it got a little tricky for me. The Green Bracted Orchid, a native to my area that also goes by the common name of Frog Orchid (Coeloglossum viride, Syn. Habenaria viridis) looks a little bit like the weedy introduced E. helleborine. I ran across this plant here and almost ripped it out of the ground. 

One of the ways to tell the difference between the two is to look for 2-3 teeth at the tip of the flower. I now have two C. viride growing here and I sure hope they begin reproducing. They haven't done much of anything since I first found them 3 years ago but I keep hoping. 

Beautiful photos of C. acaule. I, too, find it incredibly disturbing when I find that someone has ripped plants out of the ground.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Aug 5, 2007)

No offense, but I love Epipactis helleborine. It is the only orchid to grow naturally (that is, unplanted by human effort) in NYC...and there are a few growing a block away at the playground near me. At my summer place, it grows all along roadsides and driveways. It is definitely not invasive. It appears in one spot, grows there a few years, then disappears and pops up elsewhere. Non-native plants are not black and white issues...there are more shades of grey than I ever thought possible.
I am more than happy to wantonly destroy oriental bittersweet when I see it. However, not all aliens are invasive, even if they appear everywhere. Orchids. with their tiny seeds, can spread very far under the right circumstances. Oeceoclades maculata is naturalized in Fla, and I believe it got their without human intervention. E. helleborine arrived, I believe, in soil attached to European plants. Arrival method is unimportant, its just splitting hairs. The fact is, in this modern world, alien species are inevitable, and to some point, integrated with the local ecosystem. Look in your yard...wherever it is...and half the species you see will not be native. Plantains, dandelion, wild lettuce, you name it. Certainly your earthworms are foreign...we can't afford to be purists anymore. We have to accept what has integrated itself into our ecosystems successfully, and fight the ones that do not integrate, but take over: Bittersweet, Loosestrife, Water Hyacinth, Melaleuca, these are seriously invasive plants, and need the equivalent of a wartime approach in some areas. Now, don't take this the wrong way- I am not condemning your approach...destroying E. helleborine is not wanton cruelty, and if your motive is to simply remove as many non-native plants from your garden, I do not object- its your yard, and your gardening preference...go for it. I'm simply pointing out that "non-native" is inevitable in this day and age, (and always was, to a far lesser extent), and that non-native doesn't equal invasive.....Take care, Eric


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## TheLorax (Aug 6, 2007)

Little bit of an ouch at first read but no offense taken. I need to think about this a bit before replying so please don't think I am ignoring you.


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## TheLorax (Aug 6, 2007)

> It is the only orchid to grow naturally(that is, unplanted by human effort) in NYC...and there are a few growing a block away at the playground near me. At my summer place, it grows all along roadsides and driveways. It is definitely not invasive.


I believe E. helleborine was introduced to this continent much the same way the domestic cat was… by early settlers however there is no strong evidence supporting whether the introduction was unintentional as you believe or intentional as I believe. 

It is not formally identified as being invasive by the Feds. I suspect that day will come in the not so distant future given several states are now informally referring to it as invasive while some are referring to it as a noxious weed. The plant seeds readily and is well adapted to disturbed sites such as the playground, roadsides, and driveways you described which is why many biologists and botanists are classifying it as invasive. Although not a direct threat to public health such as Alliaria petiolata, Pastinaca sativa, or Albizia julibrissin; it is an alien species nonetheless capable of ecological damage in that it is documented as having a strong foothold in our environment and has quite successfully out-competed native species for resources which reduces biological diversity and may in time prove to have changed ecosystem functions. 

Naturalized is a term exclusively reserved for alien species. Native plants don’t naturalize because they belong in the ecosystem in which they occur naturally. Oeceoclades maculate is indigenous to Florida just as Lactuca biennis is indigenous to Illinois. Some earthworms are indigenous, most are not. In my region, there are no earthworms that are indigenous since the glacial retreat. Exotic earthworms are doing a tremendous amount of damage to forests around here by disrupting the nutrient cycling. I probably won’t be high on anyone’s list for wasting worms onto my driveway for the birds to gobble up when I run across them but that’s what I do. I’ve discovered another creative way to get them to surface to be able to deal with them and have several worm-reduced test areas here that would knock your socks off. One of the reasons why I felt comfortable attempting to try my hand at adding some native terrestrial orchids to my landscape. 

Based on an inventory prepared for me by an environmental engineering firm, my property was upwards of 85% non-native species when we purchased it. That number rose to about 90% once we began the clean up process. Best estimate is that my property is down to 30% non-native species and the regeneration process has begun since the removal of the allelopathic aliens that had taken over the understory. To me, it’s a matter of preserving diversity so that my grand children don’t have to view pictures of species that once existed exclusively in picture books. 

Although not a purist by any stretch of the imagination, I remove the plant you love for the simple reason that I personally place a high value on diversity. I’d much prefer to see the native species of orchids dotting my landscape while growing the exotic orchids inside my home or in a greenhouse. I also love the looks of the plant but if I want to see E. helleborine, I’d prefer to go back to Europe to see it. I’m a naturalist. I grow many exotic/alien species much to the chagrin of good folk with whom I work who bite their tongues when they see some of the plants I have growing here but I will not knowingly grow any species that has escaped cultivation to the extent it is documented as having naturalized in 5 States let alone 25. 

I do believe non-native is inevitable because we humans (myself included) tend to tinker with nature which has and continues to have some rather disastrous results. I do not believe “_Bittersweet, Loosestrife, Water Hyacinth, Melaleuca, these are seriously invasive plants, and need the equivalent of a wartime approach in some areas_”. I believe a little bit of public education and good solid integrated pest management programs funded by our tax dollars will be able to address the negative impact these species have had given a few more decades. What's the rush... they're not going anywhere without our intervention so no need to freak out the public at large with a wartime approach. Lythrum salicaria is biting the dust in my area right now as I type thanks to the colonization of several viable biological controls. I do not believe we have “_to accept what has integrated itself into our ecosystems successfully_”. To do so means to embrace species such as Euonymus alatus, Ailanthus altissima, and Paulownia tomentosa at the expense of many natives struggling to eek out an existence. You do realize there are gardeners out there who love those species as you love E. helleborine and believe they shouldn’t be removed from the continent of North America. Where do we draw the line? That’s a question that can only be answered by one’s self based on their own personal life experiences and belief system. 

Eric, please know I would never stand in judgment of you or your gardening practices and I certainly do not condemn you leaving helleborines standing. There are considerably worse invasives out there as noted by you. I deal with them virtually every day on public lands as well as on my own property. 

I came to this site to try to learn from Cyp experts how to care for two species of Cyps that are documented at the research station as having existed on my property over a hundred years ago. It had been my intent to reintroduce them plus three others that are native to NA. There's that human in me tinkering with nature by adding species from a few states south of me. My little attempt at cleaning up some of this mess on my own property while adding a few non-invasives as eye candy for myself. 
 
I look forward to learning from you,
TheLorax


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## SlipperFan (Aug 6, 2007)

Interesting. I knew that earthworms are not native, but which ones are and which are not?


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## TheLorax (Aug 6, 2007)

To the best of my knowledge, only a few genera of Lumbricid are indigenous to North America and those exist down south where they were spared due to the glacial retreat of around 12,000 years ago. You garden in Michigan, none are native to either lower MI or the UP. Makes it easy for people like you and me when any and all earthworms we run across in our soils are introduced. No need to learn to identify any of them when they're all exotic. 

I don't know that you are interested but here are basic articles that I found when I googled-
http://www.wnrmag.com/stories/2005/aug05/eworm.htm
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/health_science/articles/2006/12/11/when_worms_turn/
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/invasives/terrestrialanimals/earthworms/index.html
http://www.wvnps.org/earthworms.html

I remove worms by tossing them on my driveway. The birds are so used to me doing this that they have begun to hang out when I garden waiting for their free meal. That leaf litter the worms are chowing down on has increasingly become very important to me.


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## NYEric (Aug 6, 2007)

Your's is an interesting way of looking at things. I suppose that since non-native [read European] human inhabitation of Illinois has occurred that population should be removed as well.


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## TheLorax (Aug 6, 2007)

My way of looking at things isn't all that interesting. 

Humans are all Homo sapiens. We were present on the continent of NA prior to European colonization. I do believe we are a weedy species though (pun intended).


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## SlipperFan (Aug 6, 2007)

Thanks for the links, TheLorax. I will check them out. After reading your post, I did wonder if there were any indigenous to Michigan. 

So now I have another question (related indirectly) -- if earthworms are not natives, were there moles here before earthworms were introduced, and if so, what did they eat? We've had moles so bad on our property that we've hired a "Moleman" to take them away. He says it's a myth that moles eat grubs, and that their food is earthworms. I think, if made to choose between the two, I'd chose earthworms.

And then an interesting scenario: no earthworms, no moles????


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Aug 6, 2007)

Well, when I said I "love" E. helleborine, it was certainly not in the sense that I am passionate about it....I just appreciate its presence. And, at least, as I have seen in Eastern LI, it never remains in any one location for long...a maximum of 4 years, then its gone, only to reappear elsewhere. (I have had no luck at intentionally trying to transplant it..). And you read far too much into what I was saying...I certainly wasn't worth such a long reply. If someone has the luck to own property, and has the knowledge to appreciate what lives there, and the time and resources to work on it, then anything within your vision is fine. I see nothing wrong with removing anything that is non- native, and restoring a purely natural site. I for one, like non-native plants..in my garden. I love the fragrance of my Rhododendron luteum, the glow of my Rhododendron japonicum, and (when it was alive) the stateliness of my Cyp formosanum. But a garden is a contained place, intended to be adjusted to an owner's design. I would never endorse the idea of planting non-native plants in wild areas, and certainly do not appreciate seeing them in natural woods. The point I was trying to make is that non-native plants, in and of themselves, are not automatically invasive or destructive. Of course, context matters....earthworms (and, as stated by others, none are native in the northern part of the country) can be incredibly destructive in forest ecosystems. If your property borders on natural woodlands, than by all means kill all you see (an exercise in frustration, perhaps...). In my Queens garden, earthworms pose no danger....there is nothing natural in the area at all,,,in fact, all of LI was cut down in the 18th and early 19th centurys, and none of what grew back is truly natural. My Cutchogue garden has natural woods...don't have to worry about earthworms, as there are very few in this acidic, sandy soil...but I can grow C. acaule....even if E. hellborine will only grow near the roads. Take care, Eric


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## TheLorax (Aug 6, 2007)

Yes, moles were here before European and Asian earthworms were introduced. There are fossil remains from the Pleistocene. You probably have Scalopus aquaticus (Eastern Mole). It's insectivorous and eats somewhere around 50% or more of its own body weight a day to be able to survive and reproduce. Some moles eat up to 100% of their body weight a day. Moles will eat worms, grubs, larvae, and any other invertebrates they come across when tunneling. Moles are actually a friend to gardeners not a foe because they do a bang up job gobbling up pest larvae and insects if you can put up with their food collection tunnels that are really close to the surface. I use to pay to have them relocated but now I put up with their holes and tunnels in exchange for their free pest control services. I've twisted many an ankle out in my yard stepping in their holes over the years and I keep reminding myself that they do eat snails and slugs and that snails and slugs eat my plants while I swear at the moles. I have two moles on this property I think. Not sure. 

I can't answer your mole diet question but I'll take a stab at trying. What did moles eat prior to the glacial retreat... probably much the same as what they eat today. There were many species of earthworms present prior to the glacial advances. Now, the really good question would be what did moles eat after the glacial retreat but before European colonization and the introduction of earthworms? In captivity, moles will eat just about anything from birds to mice to hamburger meat. My guess would be that in the absence of preferred foods, they ate what ever was available to survive much like they do when in captivity. There are reports of them surviving for years in captivity on canned dog food.


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## SlipperFan (Aug 7, 2007)

I suspect if you have two moles, you probably will soon have many more.

I have a hard time thinking of moles as my friends. They make a mess of my yard and garden -- their tunnels lift the grass up so that the roots dry up and the grass dies. We keep the yard and garden watered, as well as the garden. Whenever I work in my garden, it seems I am always tripping on their runs. If anyone wants my moles, I'll gladly give them to you.

But your info is very interesting, and I am a bit more educated about them now.


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## TheLorax (Aug 7, 2007)

Seems as if you have a soft spot for them like me. I usually have a few moles around here these days so what's another one or two. If they run out of food, they'll just branch out farther from my home. They actually relocate pretty well if you move them in spring/early summer. Trying to move them now would probably be a death sentence though because they won't have time to create lower tunnels. They don't hibernate. I don't know where you live or if you ever have occassion to drive to the Chicago area but I'll take your moles next spring or early summer. I'm not taking any more chipmunks though. They've been having a field day over here in my pots with the sunflower seeds from my neighbor and my hawk that was keeping their numbers down has taken up residence in someone else's yard who has a bumper crop of squirrels this year. I'm having a chipmunk explosion over here these days and am sort of hoping that ingrate of a hawk decides to come back.


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## jediphrag (Aug 8, 2007)

Get and outside cat. They will keep the chipies in check.
Dawn


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## Grandma M (Aug 8, 2007)

My husband once killed a mole when my son was there. He became very upset. "Dad, what if that mole was a mother and her children are waiting for her?" We each have a different way of looking at things.


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## DukeBoxer (Aug 8, 2007)

You know 3 moles tunneled into a sugar plantation and popped their heads out 1 by one from the hole. The first mole said he thought he smelled some worms, the second thought he smelled some grubs and the third, struggling to get his head out of the hole said all he could smell was molasses.


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## Heather (Aug 8, 2007)

Hehehe, cute.


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## SlipperFan (Aug 8, 2007)

I should have seen that one coming...:rollhappy:


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## rdlsreno (Aug 10, 2007)

Beautiful!

Ramon


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