# Please help with potting medium



## orchideya (Oct 9, 2013)

The few mature paphs that I currently have are potted into bark mix (Shulz orchid mix from WM) and they are not doing great. The only reason they are still alive - because they came to me with very nice roots, but I already managed to rot about half of those roots already. So I really have to do something about it.
My deflasked seedlings are in the sphag moss and clay, but 
I know that straight moss is not good in the long run, so I have ordered some ammendments and would like to make a mix that would work for me, preferrably avoiding the bark alltogether.

Here are the goodies that I have (or will get soon):
NZ sphagnum moss
Coconut husk chips
Perlite
Leca clay pellets

What proportions should I use to mix the above ingredients? Am I missing something else that paphs would benefit from?
I also ordered some air cone plastic pots to go with this mix. Would it work?
Or should I still add some bark, but maybe not Shultz mix?

Thank you so much for your help.


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## gonewild (Oct 9, 2013)

How often do you like to water?


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## orchideya (Oct 9, 2013)

gonewild said:


> How often do you like to water?



It doesn't matter to me since I don't do it on schedule. I have a habit of checking my tanks everyday and water whoever needs it. I am more concerned about roots health now, so whichever option is better for roots - I will go with it.
I should probably mention that paphs are at the bottom of the larger tank with t5 HO lights, 25C temps and 60-70 % humidity.

Thanks again!


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## gonewild (Oct 9, 2013)

orchideya said:


> What proportions should I use to mix the above ingredients?



NZ sphagnum moss 20%
Coconut husk chips 10%
Perlite 10%
Leca clay pellets 40%



> Am I missing something else that paphs would benefit from?



Charcoal 5%
Coarse sand 5%



> I also ordered some air cone plastic pots to go with this mix. Would it work?



The media with 40% leca will provide enough aeration. I would not use the aircones on paphs.



> Or should I still add some bark, but maybe not Shultz mix?



No



> Thank you so much for your help.



You are welcome.


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## orchideya (Oct 9, 2013)

Great. Thank you Lance!
Now I need to find the charcoal, it should be horticultural charcoal, right?

What are the other 10% accounting for? I counted only 90% of listed stuff :
NZ sphagnum moss 20%
Coconut husk chips 10%
Perlite 10%
Leca clay pellets 40%
Charcoal 5%
Coarse sand 5%


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## gonewild (Oct 9, 2013)

orchideya said:


> Great. Thank you Lance!
> Now I need to find the charcoal, it should be horticultural charcoal, right?



It just needs to be burnt wood in it's natural form. Not charcoal briquettes or other reconstituted forbest to get charcoal intended for hort or aquatic use. But basically it is all the same as far as the media goes as long as it does not have additives.



> What are the other 10% accounting for? I counted only 90% of listed stuff :
> NZ sphagnum moss 20%
> Coconut husk chips 10%
> Perlite 10%
> ...



The other 10% is for Air space! 

measurements don't need be exact. If you want the media to hold more moisture add more moss if you want to water more often add more leca.

Instead of trying to use % to calculate the % of 100% just use parts....

NZ sphagnum moss: 20 scoops
Coconut husk chips: 10 scoops
Perlite: 10 scoops
Leca clay pellets: 40 scoops
Charcoal: 5 scoops
Coarse sand: 5 scoops


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## orchideya (Oct 9, 2013)

got it! Thanks! 
I think I found some on amazon.com and it ships to Canada:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001ACPZ0W/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

It should work, right?


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## Cheyenne (Oct 9, 2013)

First of all the schutz orchid mix not what I would really call a bark mix. It may have bark in it but it is reSt is mostly peat isn't it. I would try a real bark mix if I were you. Try one of the nurseries. Like parkside or orchids limited. The Schultz does not leave close to enough air space. When i started growing I bought a bag and immediately threw it away after I opened it.


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## orchideya (Oct 9, 2013)

Cheyenne said:


> First of all the schutz orchid mix not what I would really call a bark mix. It may have bark in it but it is reSt is mostly peat isn't it. I would try a real bark mix if I were you. Try one of the nurseries. Like parkside or orchids limited. The Schultz does not leave close to enough air space. When i started growing I bought a bag and immediately threw it away after I opened it.



No, no. There is no peat in our shulz. There are bark, perlite and charcoal. Bark was pretty chunky so I picked out large pieces leaving the medium and small ones. There was no peat or any other mosses in it.
My trouble with bark - I cannot tell if it is dry or wet. Moss is easy to tell, bark is impossible...


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## gonewild (Oct 9, 2013)

orchideya said:


> got it! Thanks!
> I think I found some on amazon.com and it ships to Canada:
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001ACPZ0W/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
> 
> It should work, right?



Yes that will work. You can probably find it close to yo if you check hydroponic supply stores. A big garden center might have small bags in the houseplant section.

This would be good also...
http://www.generalgardens.com/popup/cabonrefill.html


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## gonewild (Oct 9, 2013)

orchideya said:


> My trouble with bark - I cannot tell if it is dry or wet. Moss is easy to tell, bark is impossible...



That is why I like a coarse well drained media. If the media is correct it is almost impossible to over water. And at the same time the media holds enough moisture so that it spans the time periods when you neglect to water.


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## NYEric (Oct 9, 2013)

gonewild said:


> The other 10% is for Air space!
> 
> 
> NZ sphagnum moss: 20 scoops
> ...



This mix will retain too much moisture if you water frequently.


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## gonewild (Oct 9, 2013)

NYEric said:


> This mix will retain too much moisture if you water frequently.



Not too much moisture but rather enough. The moisture will be retained within the media particles and the space between will provide air for the roots. Basically it allows the roots to dry but at the same time gives them access to moisture.


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## orchideya (Oct 9, 2013)

I can water less frequently, it is not a problem as long as I can tell when it is dry.
I have maxillaria tenuifolia in large plastic pot in pure moss and water it once every 2-3 weeks and it grows nicely, because I can tell exactly when it is dry.
Bark usually looks bone dry at the top but is totally wet in the middle and when I tried skewer method, it seems it is always the same slightly damp (very confusing).


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## gonewild (Oct 9, 2013)

orchideya said:


> Bark usually looks bone dry at the top but is totally wet in the middle and when I tried skewer method, it seems it is always the same slightly damp (very confusing).



That is because the surface bark has not deteriorated like the bark inside the pot.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Oct 9, 2013)

I would can the CHC and get a high quality bark like Orchiata. Mix it very well with spongerock and some charcoal, and you will have a very open mix. While some of us have had luck with CHC, a lot of us...myself included..have done poorly with CHC and paphs. It would be fine if you are willing to repot 3-4 times a year. But a good aerated mix with orchiata will easily last a year or more.


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## NYEric (Oct 9, 2013)

gonewild said:


> Not too much moisture but rather enough. The moisture will be retained within the media particles and the space between will provide air for the roots. Basically it allows the roots to dry but at the same time gives them access to moisture.


Won't the fines (sand) fill the air spaces? I speak from (bad) experiences.


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## gonewild (Oct 10, 2013)

NYEric said:


> Won't the fines (sand) fill the air spaces? I speak from (bad) experiences.



NO. The % of sand is small, not enough to fill air space. What the sand will do is get between the larger pieces of media and keep them a little separated and that creates more airspace.


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## orchideya (Oct 10, 2013)

Sorry if the questions are silly.
About sphagnum: I guess I need to chop it up for mix, right? 
How large should the pieces be?
And also 20 scoops of dry moss or wet moss?
Our garden centers don't sell coarse sand, but I found some sand in the reptile section of PetSmart. Would it work?
Thanks again for all the help.


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## gonewild (Oct 10, 2013)

orchideya said:


> Sorry if the questions are silly.
> About sphagnum: I guess I need to chop it up for mix, right?



To make it easier to mix chop it up.



> How large should the pieces be?




not to big and not to small but just right!
(maybe 1"?)



> And also 20 scoops of dry moss or wet moss?



Best if everything is wet or moist before mixing.



> Our garden centers don't sell coarse sand, but I found some sand in the reptile section of PetSmart. Would it work?



Yes it will work fine. You can also find sand it your home center that is for making plaster or cement.



> Thanks again for all the help.



Just remember that all the amounts are approximate nothing needs to be exact. The important thing is that after you have mixed it all together grab a handful and squeeze it. A good media should feel firm, solid and coarse. And it should feel good to you, your thought should be that the plants will love it. If you don't feel that then add a little more of one of the ingredients until you are happy with it.


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## orchideya (Oct 13, 2013)

Lets see if I did it right.
Here is how the mix looks:







And here are few newly repotted paphs:






Does it look OK? Please be brutal in your critique, I really need to get it right.
Thanks again for all your help.


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## gonewild (Oct 13, 2013)

It looks good.
With the media this coarse you can plant the plants a little deeper. This may help to establish new surface roots that emerge above the first leaf.


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## keithrs (Oct 13, 2013)

orchideya said:


> Our garden centers don't sell coarse sand, but I found some sand in the reptile section of PetSmart. Would it work?



You can use play sand from home depot or your local hardware store.


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## Brabantia (Oct 14, 2013)

Good substrate but it seems to me that a few small pieces of inert material (terracota, polystyrene or coarse bark) at the pot bottom will be a good option. Personally I use a quantity of material which forms a thickness of at least 2 cm (0.8"). This allow a good air circulation through the potting. I think that you call it "Crooking" or "Croaking".
I also avoid the use of the sphagnum because it has a tendency to keep salts, I prefer using some coarse peat.


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## keithrs (Oct 14, 2013)

Brabantia said:


> I also avoid the use of the sphagnum because it has a tendency to keep salts, I prefer using some coarse peat.



What's the difference?


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## Brabantia (Oct 14, 2013)

keithrs said:


> What's the difference?



From this site: _*Here*_
Peat: is composed mainly of partially decomposed Sphagnum moss species. Commonly called peat moss or sphagnum peat moss. 
Sphagnum moss:A group of mosses that grow in bogs. In horticulture, sphagnum moss refers to the live portion of the plant that is available packaged in whole pieces, dried or fresh. It is often confused with sphagnum peat moss. Sphagnum moss is most often used to line wire hanging baskets and other types of containers. It is not used as a soil amendment.
Cation Exchange Capacity 
The cation exchange capacity (C.E.C.) indicates a soil ability to adsorb and hold nutrients until they are needed by plants.
Peat has an excellent cation exchange capacity value of 110 to 130 meq/100 gr. 
Dry sphagnum: because its lower bulk density the quantity of exchange sites is lower and thus its exchange capacity/100 gr.


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## gonewild (Oct 14, 2013)

> Originally Posted by Brabantia
> I also avoid the use of the sphagnum because it has a tendency to keep salts, I prefer using some coarse peat.






> Originally Posted by keithrs
> What's the difference?






Brabantia said:


> From this site: _*Here*_
> 
> Cation Exchange Capacity
> The cation exchange capacity (C.E.C.) indicates a soil ability to adsorb and hold nutrients until they are needed by plants.
> ...



I think you are confusing CEC and "keeping more salt".

If a media has a lower CEC then it has a lesser affect on salts in the media. So based on your quoted reference fresh sphag will keep less salt than peat moss.


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## Brabantia (Oct 14, 2013)

gonewild said:


> So based on your quoted reference fresh sphag will keep less salt than peat moss.


Yes and therefore the sphagnum will release lesser nutritious elements when the roots will need these. CEC measure the ions exchange capacity (like for an ion exchange resin) and near this phenomenon a part of the ions can be fixed irreversibly and I think that sphagnum hold irreversibly a greater quantity of salts than peat? Unfortunately I can find comparative studies on this subject.


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## gonewild (Oct 14, 2013)

Brabantia said:


> Yes and therefore the sphagnum will release lesser nutritious elements when the roots will need these.



That is why we supply nutrient fertilizer solutions on a regular basis. We don't rely on CEC of the media to capture and supply the plants with nutrients. A high CEC capacity is actually a disadvantage when you are working with a small amount of media in a small container. 



> and I think that sphagnum hold irreversibly a greater quantity of salts than peat? Unfortunately I can find comparative studies on this subject.



How is it holding a greater quantity of salts if it has a lower CEC?
Remember CEC is the capacity for media to absorb and then release the salts. The higher the CEC the more salts are retained for release to plant roots. With lower CEC the media is more inert.


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## Brabantia (Oct 15, 2013)

If you search a substrate as inert as possible why not recommend rockwool (small cube) or synthetic moss (like the one used to fill cushions) instead of sphagnum?
PS Lance: I like peat because next to its faculty to keep water it can re-liberate natural products (humic acid ...) which help growth.


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## gonewild (Oct 15, 2013)

Brabantia said:


> If you search a substrate as inert as possible why not recommend rockwool (small cube) or synthetic moss (like the one used to fill cushions) instead of sphagnum?
> PS Lance: I like peat because next to its faculty to keep water it can re-liberate natural products (humic acid ...) which help growth.



I did not recommend either sphag moss or peat.
Orchideya posted a list of ingredients and asked what proportions of each to use to make a good media. All of the listed ingredients are good components so I made the mix recommendation based on using available materials.

The media would work just as well without the sphag moss but since it was on the list I included it at the proportion I thought best. 

The idea with this mix was not to create an inert media. When I mentioned the inert concept it was in relation to your comments about the use of peat vs sphag.

Sphag moss has an advantage over peat in an open media like this in the fact that it may come back to life and provide the benefits that living moss has compared to (dead) peat moss. 

Brabantia, I like peat moss also and use it all the time, but I would not use it in a media like this one combined with the other ingredients, it is too fine in texture and would be difficult to manage.

About "inert"... The benefit with using inert components in the media is to avoid the media holding and releasing unknown amounts of certain nutrients that may lead to nutrient imbalances. 

FYI... I would never consider to use cushion filling, who knows what toxins are in there? That material is only intended to grow couch potatoes. :rollhappy:


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## Brabantia (Oct 15, 2013)

@ Lance: I mentioned synthetic moss like the one used for cushion (it was a picture to explain what I think) but of course if I use it it should be horticultural quality. And thank you for this discussion about a subject with which I am very interested.


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## gonewild (Oct 15, 2013)

Brabantia said:


> @ Lance: I mentioned synthetic moss like the one used for cushion (it was a picture to explain what I think) but of course if I use it it should be horticultural quality. And thank you for this discussion about a subject with which I am very interested.



I know you used the cushions as only an example, that's why I used the "couch potato" refrence. 

As a side note about peat moss.. In about 1969 I experimented with a media mix of 50% perilite and 50% coarse peat moss. We planted Phals, Catts, Paphs, and many other genera in it. It worked extremely well for all genera except Paphs. The mix had three main issues for commercial growing that were negative. 1. it was expensive. 2. It lasted less than one year and repotting was expensive. 3. It was very easy to over water and cause root loss.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Oct 15, 2013)

I experimented with rock wool in the late 80's. It was awful. Supported disgusting algae growth accompanied by mass quantities of fungus gnats. Plants declined in it. NZ sphagnum is far better.


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