# paphiopedilum leucochilum black



## Hakone (Aug 7, 2011)

photo from friend, Nagoya Orchids Meeting July 2011


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## paphreek (Aug 7, 2011)

Incredible! Too bad the dorsal is deformed on this blooming


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## Shiva (Aug 7, 2011)

Black indeed. .


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## John Boy (Aug 7, 2011)

sorry, but I cant believe the picture to be true to the plants real colour.


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## goldenrose (Aug 7, 2011)

OMG!!! 


John Boy said:


> sorry, but I cant believe the picture to be true to the plants real colour.


Why? I look at the skin tones of the people in the background, looks rather normal, the white on the pouch is white & the color of the foliage is spot on for some brachys.


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## brice (Aug 7, 2011)

I am agree with you John Boy I can't believe it, and further more I think it's not really pretty. I would like to know the cross...

Brice


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## John Boy (Aug 7, 2011)

goldenrose said:


> OMG!!!
> 
> Why? I look at the skin tones of the people in the background, looks rather normal, the white on the pouch is white & the color of the foliage is spot on for some brachys.



Yeah, I'm getting your point, but I simply don't believe that Bachy-Breeding, even with the very latest leucochilum breeding in Thailand or Taiwan, has come to that point of colouration yet. I'm not saying that I don't believe it possible, but.... There's a lot of years in between a black (solid) flower and current breeding. I just don't believe we're there yet.

Besides: If there was a Brachy of that coulor out there: I'd expect better pictures of it. If someone found a plant like that say in Thailand it would have a 50.000$ price tag, if not more... so a decent picture would come with it, if it were introcuced to the world.


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## Rick (Aug 7, 2011)

Spray paint????

I've seen it done before at Halloween shows.


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## Lint (Aug 7, 2011)

Real or not, I think it's hideous. It looks diseased! Although I suppose if it was completely black without those pestilence-like blotches, it would have its charm.


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## SlipperKing (Aug 7, 2011)

That is messed up. I'd bet my last dollar there is a maudiae-vini somewhere in this flowers history then bred away from it. Back to leucochilum.


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## paphioboy (Aug 7, 2011)

Can you say 'freak of nature'?  That is interesting, but not sure if I want that in my collection...


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## John Boy (Aug 7, 2011)

SlipperKing said:


> That is messed up. I'd bet my last dollar there is a maudiae-vini somewhere in this flowers history then bred away from it. Back to leucochilum.



and you'd guess it would retain that sort of colour during these generations "of breeding it into or better hiding it into" a Brachy Line??? Interesting idea!


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## paphreek (Aug 7, 2011)

SlipperKing said:


> That is messed up. I'd bet my last dollar there is a maudiae-vini somewhere in this flowers history then bred away from it. Back to leucochilum.



I personally think that it is possible that it is a line bred species. After seeing some of the leucochilums from Thailand and Japan in Sam Tsui's presentation a few years back, this isn't that far a jump.



John Boy said:


> and you'd guess it would retain that sort of colour during these generations "of breeding it into or better hiding it into" a Brachy Line??? Interesting idea!



If it really is bred to a vini, here is what the F1 generation parent might look like. Paph (Impulse x leucochilum)


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## Hien (Aug 7, 2011)

I think it is possible.


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## SlipperFan (Aug 7, 2011)

I suspect the color is pretty close to accurate. What it lacks is light bouncing into the flower so the value (lightness/darkness) is exaggerated to the dark side.


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## Brian Monk (Aug 7, 2011)

It doesn't appear to be a photoshopped image, but that can be tricky. FWIW, I don't think this has Barbata anywhere in it.


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## W. Beetus (Aug 7, 2011)

I agree that it is possible, but I would like to see the next bloom before calling this 100% true.


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## NYEric (Aug 7, 2011)

I would take it and hope th eshape straightens out. I would like to have one of these and an album one to make the image like the original Taj Mahal design.


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## Roth (Aug 8, 2011)

John Boy said:


> Yeah, I'm getting your point, but I simply don't believe that Bachy-Breeding, even with the very latest leucochilum breeding in Thailand or Taiwan, has come to that point of colouration yet. I'm not saying that I don't believe it possible, but.... There's a lot of years in between a black (solid) flower and current breeding. I just don't believe we're there yet.
> 
> Besides: If there was a Brachy of that coulor out there: I'd expect better pictures of it. If someone found a plant like that say in Thailand it would have a 50.000$ price tag, if not more... so a decent picture would come with it, if it were introcuced to the world.



The color could be real, they have exceedingly dark plants of brachys in Japan. Now, the problem is that they are not the pure species, but hybrids with a specific stran of bellatulum in the background, crossed back and forth. I ll try to find out the name of the hybrid and the nursery that made such things, but they were exceedingly dark. They are not pure species either...

They use a very rare and special strain of bellatulum, called bellatulum 'Royal Strain', or bellatulum vinicolor. There are no plants in commercial nurseries anywhere of that pure bellatulum strain (except in Vietnam ), because they belong to the Thai Royal Family orchid collection, so no one propagates/touch those. They all come from only one single wild collected plant. However, one breeder made hybrids of that bellatulum with leucochilum, already in Thailand, and it appears that some leucochilum strains are contaminated with this bellatulum for a while. The best of those F1 bellatulum vini x leucochilum have been sold to Japan over a decade ago, and I know they passed the next generations as pure leucochilum with very dark flowers... This bellatulum is as well in the ancestry of the 'Red Devil' leucochilum and this kind of leucochilum with the very dark pattern.





If you raise seedlings from plants of 'leucochilum' by yourself you cannot know for sure which one are pure, but you can know if some are contaminated. Quite a lot of the Fx's raised from that bellatulum, and sold as high quality leucochilum, will produce a lot of 'normal leafed' seedlings, big dark leaves, 'typical of leucochilum' and always a few ( from 1-20) with a very heavy leaf mottling, slightly softer leaves. Seems they could not erase completely the bellatulum leaf habit...


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## tenman (Aug 8, 2011)

Since some don't like it, you can send it to me. I'll give it a very good home! I'd like to see a second blooming to see if the dorsal improves. Even if not, it has great breeding potential.


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## paphioboy (Aug 8, 2011)

Perhaps a lot of breeding with paph Mem. Hirohisa Kawai was incorporated?  This hybrid is simply amazing BTW...
http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/society/paphio/7th-kansyou/7th-nyusyou/0306-003_s.jpg
http://www.orchidweb.jp/orchidshow/kobe2004/IMG_7405.jpg
http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/verandaorchids/rtkpg1006/MemHirohisaKawai_BlackCandyBMIOK.jpg


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## biothanasis (Aug 8, 2011)

Very interesting, but weird at the same time, flower!!


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## Braem (Aug 8, 2011)

Hakone said:


> photo from friend, Nagoya Orchids Meeting July 2011


That thing is ugly as hell!


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## Hakone (Aug 8, 2011)

Braem said:


> That thing is ugly as hell!



for selected person


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## John Boy (Aug 8, 2011)

Braem said:


> That thing is ugly as hell!




And so are some people... inside, or out!


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## TyroneGenade (Aug 8, 2011)

This looks like a first bloom seedling. I think its too soon to call it ugly. It may flatten out next time and have great shape. It is certainly no more hideous than some of the really dark vini-colors I have seen.


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## goldenrose (Aug 8, 2011)

This is interesting, do those that think it's ugly not like any dark flowers? (Like Frdclkr. After Dark, a cym Black Sambo are the first to come to mind) or is it more the misshapen dorsal? I'll admit my first response was yuck but it was due to the dorsal, straighten out the dorsal and what's wrong with it?


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## Lint (Aug 8, 2011)

As I said, if it was completely black, I would probably like it. I don't mind (near)black flowers like vinicolors or Fredclarkeara After Dark. 

It's just the blotchyness on the pouch that makes it look so diseased. 
It also reminds me of a really bad bruise. oke:


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## Ricky (Aug 9, 2011)

Braem said:


> That thing is ugly as hell!



Indeed!

Anything seems possible but it is necessary?


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## Hakone (Aug 9, 2011)

Ricky said:


> Indeed!
> 
> Anything seems possible but it is necessary?



Why not ?. How many black car run on the road in Germany ?


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## Shiva (Aug 9, 2011)

Bottom line is if it has been crossed with other species to increase the black, it's no more a leucochilum.


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## Ricky (Aug 9, 2011)

Hakone said:


> Why not ?. How many black car run on the road in Germany ?



It´s not the color but the shape that make it ugly.


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## SlipperKing (Aug 9, 2011)

Ricky said:


> It´s not the color but the shape that make it ugly.



OK, how many dented up black cars then?oke::rollhappy:


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## Hakone (Aug 9, 2011)

That is first blooming, a second blooming much better


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## Mister_T (Aug 9, 2011)

็Hakone! are you sure that is pure leuco ?


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## Hakone (Aug 9, 2011)

Mister_T said:


> ็Hakone! are you sure that is pure leuco ?



Hello Mister T,

I have photo from friend from japan.


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## Mister_T (Aug 9, 2011)

Hakone said:


> Hello Mister T,
> 
> I have photo from friend from japan.



but anyway i love that! thanks for shared.:drool::clap:


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## Hakone (Aug 9, 2011)

Mister_T said:


> but anyway i love that! thanks for shared.:drool::clap:



thank you very much:rollhappy:


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## Braem (Aug 9, 2011)

How do you know if it is first blooming ... you haven't seen the second blooming !


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## Hakone (Aug 9, 2011)

Braem said:


> How do you know if it is first blooming ... you haven't seen the second blooming !



the gardner knows immediately , that is first blooming. How many growth has the plant ?. How larg is leafspan ( for blooming size ) ?


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## Braem (Aug 9, 2011)

Hakone said:


> the gardner knows immediately , that is first blooming. How many growth has the plant ?. How larg is leafspan ( for blooming size ) ?


That is not the point ... you haven't seen the second blooming ... therefore you DONT KNOW WHAT IT WILL BE ... anything else is BULL


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## Berthold (Aug 9, 2011)

Hakone said:


> the gardner knows immediately , that is first blooming. How many growth has the plant ?. How larg is leafspan ( for blooming size ) ?




There is an alian logic in this answer.


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## paphioboy (Aug 9, 2011)

I think Hakone is just saying that the plant is only showing its first blooming because of the size of the plant (from the pic, a single mature fan and 2 new starts) and the plant has not shown a second bloom yet, so possibly it should improve in the future..


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## Kavanaru (Aug 10, 2011)

OMG... isn't it already enough to read and re-read all this rubbish and BULL (as Braemie sais) ? Guy, behave!! as you already mentioned in another thread (I am using your own words!): USE YOUR EYES AND BRAIN!!! it all sounds like school girls having a non-sense discussion (or in another context, like the typical Prof Dr Dr L-M-A-A-Actitude "I know better than anybody else because I am Prof Dr Dr C100 L-M-A-A! Whatever you say is BULL because you not even have a Dr and are no one to talk to me") 
Not sure about what's that all about but why don't you let your "crush" on the guy at a private level, instead of annoying everybody here? I think it would be healthier for the forum... 

Some people write books, some other people don't give a big S about them, some people grow plant and some other don't even care about them, some people put hands on fir for classical taxonomy and others believe in molecular phylogeny, some people have ideas and others copy them... That's life! take or leave it!

as for this case, Hakone has said a second bloom will be better, the same way as almost everybody in this forum states it will be, when one post a picture of a first bloomer with no perfect shape (review all teh post and you will find that!). And why he said that? BECAUSE that's teh experience of most of us here: second/Third blooms are normally BETTER than the first one... Thats also the reason why most of us gives a second/third chance tomost plants instead of throuwing them into the bin inmediately after first bloom.

My apologies if I am being rude, but I think I am not the only one already tired of reading this kind of insulting messages on every thread some people write/start... Let's stay respectfull... ok? you can have different opinions, but there is no need to be aggressive and insulting... 

and if we have moderators in this forum, please take an action! no,. I am not saying you should block anyone... just send a message and callback to decent level... 

my opinion!


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## Hakone (Aug 10, 2011)

Braem said:


> That is not the point ... you haven't seen the second blooming ... therefore you DONT KNOW WHAT IT WILL BE ... anything else is BULL


*
My Question :*

How many growths has the plant ?. How larg is leafspan ( for blooming size ) ?

your Answer , please ? . You place only questions 

also you don´t know . How many leucochilum are you saw?


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## Hakone (Aug 10, 2011)

Kavanaru said:


> OMG... isn't it already enough to read and re-read all this rubbish and BULL (as Braemie sais) ? Guy, behave!! as you already mentioned in another thread (I am using your own words!): USE YOUR EYES AND BRAIN!!! it all sounds like school girls having a non-sense discussion (or in another context, like the *typical Prof Dr Dr L-M-A-A-Actitude *"I know better than anybody else because I am *Prof Dr Dr C100 L-M-A-A! Whatever* you say is BULL because you not even have a Dr and are no one to talk to me")
> Not sure about what's that all about but why don't you let your "crush" on the guy at a private level, instead of annoying everybody here? I think it would be healthier for the forum...
> 
> Some people write books, some other people don't give a big S about them, some people grow plant and some other don't even care about them, some people put hands on fir for classical taxonomy and others believe in molecular phylogeny, some people have ideas and others copy them... That's life! take or leave it!
> ...



2. Educational channel is not spectacular. Professor is an occupation in Germany , not otherwise.


Joh.Wolfgang v. Goethe wrote

Achte auf Deine Gedanken,
denn sie werden deine Worte.
Achte auf Deine Worte,
denn sie werden Deine Handlungen.
Achte auf Deine Handlungen,
denn sie werden Deine Gewohnheiten.
Achte auf Deine Gewohnheiten,
denn sie werden Dein Charakter.
Achte auf Deinen Charakter,
denn er wird Dein Schicksal.​


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## Kavanaru (Aug 10, 2011)

Hakone, my previous post is also valid for you.. ok? 

let's stay quiet... ok? or at least have discussion at a decent, reasonable and respectfull level, without insulting or attacking or provoking each others...


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## Hakone (Aug 10, 2011)

Kavanaru said:


> Hakone, my previous post is also valid for you.. ok?
> 
> let's stay quiet... ok? or at least have discussion at a decent, reasonable and respectfull level, without insulting or attacking or provoking each others...



Hello Kavanaru,

thank you very much . With certain people is missing the educated cultivated discussion. He must learn. Probably too late :sob:


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## Hakone (Aug 10, 2011)

Berthold said:


> There is an alian logic in this answer.



" USE YOUR EYES AND BRAIN!!! " . G. Braem


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## labskaus (Aug 10, 2011)

to breed an almost black godefroyae is quite an achievement.

From the photo I cannot say for sure, if this is the first bloom on this plant, since we see just one side of it. There might have been a previous growth which has been removed or which has wilted. On the other hand I would assume (assumptions again) that the breeder was so keen to show this spectacular flower that he carried it to this meeting on the very first occassion, no matter what serious flaws the flowers had.

And I'm not so sure if this flower will improve on the next flowering. If you compare with other hyper-pigmented flowers such as some Maudiae-type vinicolors (petals in particular) or Halequin-Phals you'll always note some crippling in the areas where there is too much pigment.


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## Hakone (Aug 10, 2011)

http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/Special/leuco/enleuco5.html

are the plants fist bloom or second/third bloom.


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## Braem (Aug 10, 2011)

And who says that is the same plant?????????


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## Hakone (Aug 10, 2011)

Braem said:


> And who says that is the same plant?????????



Your Answer , please SIR .

How many growths has the plant ?. How larg is leafspan ( for blooming size ) ?


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## labskaus (Aug 10, 2011)

Hakone said:


> Your Answer , please SIR .
> 
> How many growths has the plant ?. How larg is leafspan ( for blooming size ) ?



Hakone, I must admit that I find it sometimes challenging to follow your thoughts. Future improvement of a flower depends not only plant age, but even more on plant genetics, epigenetics and growers skills.
Why did you direkt us to the FCC plants on Dr. Tanakas web page? Please explain.


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## Braem (Aug 10, 2011)

Hakone said:


> Your Answer , please SIR .
> 
> How many growths has the plant ?. How larg is leafspan ( for blooming size ) ?


What the heck does this mean? Do you really know what you are writing? I suggest you get some help somewhere.


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## Berthold (Aug 10, 2011)

labskaus said:


> Hakone, I must admit that I find it sometimes challenging to follow your thoughts. Future improvement of a flower depends not only plant age, but even more on plant genetics, epigenetics and growers skills.
> Why did you direkt us to the FCC plants on Dr. Tanakas web page? Please explain.



fog bombs


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## Hakone (Aug 10, 2011)

Braem said:


> What the heck does this mean? Do you really know what you are writing? I suggest you get some help somewhere.




------------------------------




Braem said:


> How do you know if it is first blooming ... you haven't seen the second blooming !






Hakone said:


> the gardner knows immediately , that is first blooming. How many growth has the plant ?. How larg is leafspan ( for blooming size ) ?




" USE YOUR EYES AND YOUR BRAIN!!! " . G. Braem


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## Hakone (Aug 10, 2011)

Hakone said:


> photo from friend, Nagoya Orchids Meeting July 2011



Hello labskaus,

- How many growths has these plant ?

- How larg is leafspan ( cm ) of leucochilim for first blooming ?

- How larg is leafspan these plant ?


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## labskaus (Aug 10, 2011)

Oups, two starter growth. Sorry.

I think I start to understand what you're trying to write throughout the last couple of pages: You think that blooming fan is too large to be the first one. With that you're saying "thanks a lot to all of you for your kind comments and good wishes for the plants future bloomings, but I believe this is as good as it gets".

I'm with you in this aspect.


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## Brian Monk (Aug 10, 2011)

Really? THAT is what yo got ot of his comments? 

Though I think making broad assumptions about anything is probably ill advised, Hakone's logic is easy to follow. It is a small plant with one growth that hasn't bloomed. Ergo, it is a first bloom plant. 

Everything else is conjecture or educated guess. (Both of which are common in all fields, in my experience.)


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## Hakone (Aug 10, 2011)

Brian Monk said:


> Really? THAT is what yo got ot of his comments?
> 
> Though I think making broad assumptions about anything is probably ill advised, Hakone's logic is easy to follow. It is a small plant with one growth that hasn't bloomed. Ergo, it is a first bloom plant.
> 
> Everything else is conjecture or educated guess. (Both of which are common in all fields, in my experience.)



Hello Brian Monk,

thank you very much , your explanation.

-	leucochilum flowers with leafspan about 10 cm (3.937 inch )
-	the plant has 2 growths : one old and one young growths
-	the old growth flower now




Braem said:


> How do you know if it is first blooming ... you haven't seen the second blooming !



Sir ,Please

" USE YOUR EYES AND YOUR BRAIN " , G. BRAEM !!!


Knowledge and experience are different
You can buy knowledge but not experience.


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## labskaus (Aug 10, 2011)

There's so much of conjecture and educated guessing in this thread that I'm getting tired.


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