# Names and pronunciations



## Jimsox (Apr 13, 2009)

I was wondering about a good book to purchase on finding out how to say all these names?? I feel like a dummy sometimes trying to tell what I have and want. Also could some one please explain the way a paph is named, like Paph. Michael koopowitz (philippinese ‘birchwood’ x sanderianum ‘fox croft’). What stands for what here? Is there an order to this madness? Any books to help with this? Web sites would be ok too!!!! Thanks for the help in advance!!! Jimi


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## Orchidzrule (Apr 13, 2009)

Hi Jimi,

I'll take a stab at this. If you see a plant with a Latinized name it's usually a species. By the way, although many people will use "specie" as singular for a species, this is wrong, wrong, WRONG. (When I hear some people saying it, I have to fight a strong urge to slap him/her! LOL I'm kidding--sort of.) Species is correctly used both as a singular and a plural. (Like sheep. You don't say sheeps.)

(There are a few exceptions to a Latinized name being used only for species. I'll deal with them later.) Anyhow, if it's a hybrid, it will either have a non Latin name (English, French, Chinese, whatever), or it will have two (sometimes more) Latin names with an X (or x) between them, signifying a cross between those species. (Or between two or more hybrids, just to make it more confusing!)

If someone makes a cross, they can register it with the Royal Horticultural Society and name it. From that point on, all crosses made from the same parental types are known by that registered name. In the example you used, any cross between sanderianum & philippinense is Michael Koopowitz. There are some crosses that never get registered and must always be identified by the parental names with the x between them. I have no idea why some don't get registered.

The Royal Horticultural Society has a website where you can look up crosses. You can inquire what the proper name of the offspring of any cross is, or you can type in the name of hybrid and it will tell you the name of the parents. The URL is:
http://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/registerpages/orchidresults.asp

This information can also be found by software like OrchidWiz. In my opinion, it's *much* easier to use than the RHS website, which is rather cumbersome.

There are some very old hybrids that may have Latinized names. One I can think of off the top of my head is Phragmipedium Sedenii, a cross between schlimii & longifolium. Originally, hybrids could have Latin names, then the powers that be ruled against it. I believe natural hybrids are still allowed to be given Latin names.

The last part of a name is a clonal name, and they are always enclosed by single quotation marks. In your example, 'Birchwood' & 'Fox Croft" were particular clones of presumably superior examples of philippinense & sanderianum, respectively. All Paph philippinense 'Birchwood' originated as a single plant, of which divisions have been made.

So, I've probably made this as clear as mud! I can only say that you will find the terminology easier to use, and you'll feel more comfortable with it, as you continue to work at it. It will get better--I promise!

If there are any items I've missed, I hope others will jump in.


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## Elena (Apr 13, 2009)

This is a website that I found (and still do!) useful for all sorts of info.
http://ladyslipper.com/paphfaq.htm

_What does the name on my label mean?_ is answered towards the bottom of the page

Hope this helps


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## PaphMadMan (Apr 13, 2009)

A good book on pronunciation of botanical names: 'Botanical Latin' by William T. Stearn. You should be able to find in on Amazon or elsewhere for about $20.

Using your example, Paph. Michael Koopowitz (philippinense ‘Birchwood’ x sanderianum ‘Fox Croft’):

Michael Koopowitz is the registered hybrid name for the cross between 2 species, Paph. philippinense and Paph. sanderianum, in either order. No other Paph. hybrid may be given the same name. The only ways to get Paph Micheal Koopowitz is to cross those 2 species, or cross Michael Koopowitz with another Michael Koopowitz or itself. Only RHS can approve an orchid hybrid name.

When a cross is listed like (philippinense x sanderianum), it tells you the first species (or hybrid) listed carried the seed pod, and the second one listed provided the pollen.

'Birchwood' and 'Fox Croft' are clonal names (also called cultivars). One original plant of a species or hybrid is given such a name to distinguish it from all others, and all plants that are propagated from that original by division (or cloning with some types of orchids) are given the same name. In orchids you can not propagate a cultivar by seed. When naming a hybrid (as for Michael Koopowitz) the clonal names of the parents do not matter, but are often provided to be specific about desirable parents. Anyone can give their plant a clonal name, but a clonal name can only be used once with a particular species or hybrid, so choices should be made with care to be unique.

I'm sure others will (or already have) provided answers too. Try not to get overwhelmed, it will all make sense eventually.


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## goldenrose (Apr 14, 2009)

Pronunciation - :rollhappy: nobody butchers 'em like I do! If in doubt shorten it! In most cases one can get by, by sounding it out. Another part is the syllables. 
Ex. - bellatulum, shorten it to bella, most know what you mean! In my way of sounding it out = bella tu lum. What is the proper pronunciation? 
bel latch u lum. 
Species ending in double i's, pronounce both i's. 
Ex. sangii = san gee i.
How did I do?


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## Elena (Apr 14, 2009)

How'd ya pronounce that Pharg warwekczpklsxz........

Actually, rothschildianum is the one I'm never quite sure about. 

I might get that Botanical Latin book :rollhappy:


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## nikv (Apr 14, 2009)

I've had an ongoing debate with an orchid friend over the proper pronunciation of the artificial genus Vuylstekeara. Anyone here want to join in on the debate? I've been wanting to know how to pronounce it for twenty years now.


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## Ron-NY (Apr 14, 2009)

goldenrose said:


> Pronunciation - :rollhappy: nobody butchers 'em like I do! If in doubt shorten it! In most cases one can get by, by sounding it out. Another part is the syllables.
> Ex. - bellatulum, shorten it to bella, most know what you mean! In my way of sounding it out = bella tu lum. What is the proper pronunciation?
> bel latch u lum.
> Species ending in double i's, pronounce both i's.
> ...


bel latch u lum...This is the pronunciation that I use...hopefully correctly


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## Ron-NY (Apr 14, 2009)

Elena said:


> How'd ya pronounce that Pharg warwekczpklsxz........
> 
> Actually, rothschildianum is the one I'm never quite sure about.
> 
> I might get that Botanical Latin book :rollhappy:


You have to be Polish to pronounce the fist one, LOL. 

rothschildianum is an easier one...most of these species names have a person's last name as part of it...in this case it is named after Baron Ferdinand de Rothschild, a famous Victorian Period orchid grower. ...so, although I am not an English major, it is pronounced roths-child-ee-an-um


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## Ron-NY (Apr 14, 2009)

nikv said:


> I've had an ongoing debate with an orchid friend over the proper pronunciation of the artificial genus Vuylstekeara. Anyone here want to join in on the debate? I've been wanting to know how to pronounce it for twenty years now.


Well...here is my shot at this one ....vul-stek-ee-AH-ruh...at least this is how I have heard it pronounced multi times. I am positive on the last three syllables It was named for Charles Vuylsteke, an early 20th century Belgian orchid hybridizer.


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## nikv (Apr 14, 2009)

^ ^
Cool! I win!  My friend keeps pronouncing it vul-stuh-CARE-ee-uh.


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## Elena (Apr 14, 2009)

Ron-NY said:


> rothschildianum is an easier one...most of these species names have a person's last name as part of it...in this case Rothschild. ...so, although I am not an English major, it is pronounced roths-child-ee-an-um



See that was my instinct too. However, couple of years ago they were showing EYOF on TV as part or Chelsea Flower Show coverage and the EYOF employee pronounced it differently. He said it quickly but it sounded a bit peculiar, something like rotskil-dye-anum


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## Leo Schordje (Apr 14, 2009)

I will toss in my 2 cents. First botanical descriptions and names are deliberately in a blend of several dead languages - Vulgate Latin and Classical Greek being the most common sources for this blend. Most of the words used are adjectives and nouns, ie. descriptors. The names chosen tend to describe a trait of the species being described, or the location, or a person involved with the discovery. Since Vulgate Latin died out of common use over a millenium ago:

1.) There is no ultimate authority on how these things are pronounced, there are regional conventions, but there is no "ultimate" authority toward pronounciation. Just listen to how others pronounce the words locally, that is the 'correct' pronounciation. The book that PaphMadMan cited is the best starting point for the USA regional 'dialect' of botanical language. BUt if you are off a bit - don't worry. Nobody will scold you, it is not like mispronouncing French. oke:

2.) Many - perhaps half or more of the botanical names honor a person. In this case, as much as practical, pronounce the base name as the namesake would say it, in that language. The latinized ending should not change the syllable that is accented in the source name. Paph lowii and Paph sangii are named after Mr. Sang, and Mr. Low. Phrag warscewiczianum is after Baron Joseph Ritter von Rawicz, or Warscewicz in Polish. (Var sha vicks is my approximation of the prounciation) Unfortunately I do not have a clue how to handle Mr. Vuylsteke 's name. 

3.) names that are descriptors often come from the same latin roots that some English names come from. Rose's example Paph bellatulum does come from the latin root beau in the masculine form and belle in the feminine meaning beautiful, which is the same in French similar in Italian. So many of these names really have familiar root words. 

Basically, keep those thoughts in mind, and relax & enjoy 
Leo


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## Ron-NY (Apr 14, 2009)

Leo, I came across this recently

"Joseph Warscewicz, Ritter von Ravicz (1812 -1866)
The above spelling of the man’s name is the correct version and it is pronounced ‘Warsse-witch’. There are a number of plants bearing this name as the specific epithet and some of the erroneous spelling had been accepted"


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## Heather (Apr 14, 2009)

I think Ron is right here, and roth is roth-schild-ianum. 

I love that botanical latin book but remember that taxonomy changes practically daily. It might all be different soon! 

Just a thought.


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## Drorchid (Apr 14, 2009)

Ron-NY said:


> Well...here is my shot at this one ....vul-stek-ee-AH-ruh...at least this is how I have heard it pronounced multi times. I am positive on the last three syllables It was named for Charles Vuylsteke, an early 20th century Belgian orchid hybridizer.



That is probably the "English" way to pronounce it. I am assuming that Vuylsteke is a Flemmish name so it should be pronounced a little different. There is no equivalent in English to the way you pronounce "V*uy*l" but it is the same as in the Dutch word "H*u*is"

When it comes to Latin words we in the Netherlands and most of the continental Europe, pronounce the Latin words different as well compared to how they are pronounced in English speaking countries. We pronounce them more like how the French or Italian would pronounce them (an e is pronounced as "a", an i is pronounced as "e" etc). It was kind of confusing when I first came to the States, as I would pronounce all the botanical species all the Dutch way.

Robert


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## JeanLux (Apr 14, 2009)

Reminds me of my visit to the Dijon WOC!! Listening to the lectures given in english by a lot of different people of different nationalities, I was happy to understand ( but only in most cases) about what genus or species they were talking: that set, the rest was rather easy to follow!
taking the example of paph bellatulum I will try to reproduce my understanding of its 'luxembourgish' pronunciation in english  :
bell u t oo(short) l oo(short) m

crazy but different, I would not dare to attac rothschildianum pronunciation

 Jean


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## arcticshaun (Apr 14, 2009)

Interesting ... because I read 'Orchidese' all the time but rarely do I get to try to speak it with other orchid growers. I do get a few odd looks at orchid shows when I try to discuss certain species (I say sar-ko-chi-lus, raised eyebrow, do you mean Sar-ko-kay-lus , er uh yes I do). At least my Taylor's Guide to Orchids has some pronunciations included but that doesn't stop me from butchering names all the time.

Shaun


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## Leo Schordje (Apr 14, 2009)

Ron-NY said:


> Leo, I came across this recently
> 
> "Joseph Warscewicz, Ritter von Ravicz (1812 -1866)
> The above spelling of the man’s name is the correct version and it is pronounced ‘Warsse-witch’. There are a number of plants bearing this name as the specific epithet and some of the erroneous spelling had been accepted"



Thanks Ron, you are right. Almost does not count when spelling. 
I got to keep more reference books here at work. Memory is not enough. 

Thanks - Leo


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## Clark (Apr 14, 2009)

Perhaps last year I heard of a site, that if one typed in the Latin, an audio
replied the name. Never found that site. Anyone?


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## Orchidzrule (Apr 14, 2009)

I didn't even attempt to address the issue of pronunciation! LOL I do think, though, Leo really hits the nail on the head when he points out nomenclature is based mainly on dead languages, "Vulgate" (a term I'd never heard before and which I'm going to have to look up in my dictionary!) Latin & Classical Greek, among others (?), and there is no ultimate authority on their pronunciation.

If it's someone's name, pronounce it according to his or her language of origin, otherwise don't worry if you have it absolutely correct or not.

I've really found many of the comments on this thread to be enlightening!


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## Elena (Apr 14, 2009)

Warsse-witch-ianum is doable although popowii is easier still :rollhappy:




Leo Schordje said:


> 2.) Many - perhaps half or more of the botanical names honor a person. In this case, as much as practical, pronounce the base name as the namesake would say it, in that language.





Orchidzrule said:


> If it's someone's name, pronounce it according to his or her language of origin



Right, so, would it then be rot-shilt-ianum rather than roths-child-ianum? :sob:


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## Paph_LdyMacBeth (Apr 14, 2009)

I was at an orchid show a year ago and I witnessed two men "arguing" over the pronunciation of the word Keiki. I put arguing in quotations because they were not at all having a discussion/argument about the pronunciation of the word, but a discussion about a plant that had only ever grown keiki's. 

One man would use the word pronounced one way, and the other would use the word his way. Every time they would use this word they would get louder and slower (as if they were speaking to someone who didn't understand the language). They probably went on for a good couple of minutes, it was really quite humorous for those of us listening. 

Now I believe the word Keiki is Hawaiian? So, I am sure there is a correct pronunciation and one of these men was right. Hardly worth arguing over in my opinion...everyone will put their own intonation onto pronunciations anyway. "Potato. Potato. Tomato. Tomato."


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## Ron-NY (Apr 14, 2009)

Elena said:


> Right, so, would it then be rot-shilt-ianum rather than roths-child-ianum? :sob:


Well let's see his father was one of the Vienna Rothschilds but his mother was of the British Rothschilds clan and upon her death he moved to England. so do we use the British or the Viennese pronunciation, LOL


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## Jimsox (Apr 14, 2009)

WOW, such great information here. Thanks to everyone. I will definately have a lot to consider. But being patient is a good one.


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## WolfDog1 (C. Williams) (Apr 14, 2009)

OK, I have to plug my orchid society. The Oregon Orchid Society produced a book entitled "An Orchidist's Lexicon" that I really like. It covers some of these issues and has really helped me pronounce a lot of the orchid names more correctly. We have many copies available, but I cannot remember how much they are. You could come to our show over Mother's Day weekend where we will have many copies available and at a discount! 

Here's a link to our website www.oregonorchidsociety.org

Craig


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## Jimsox (Apr 14, 2009)

Wolf, as much as I'd love to see Oregon in the spring.......I can't make that trip. Thanks though, and maybe if you could get me the info on obtaining this book, I'd be more than happy to contribute.


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## Ernie (Apr 14, 2009)

One of my favorites is Phrag czeriakowianum! I used to pronounce every syllable per zer-wee-ack-ow-ee-ann-um, but was schooled to say it sher-va-cove-ee-ann-um. 

-Ernie

Oops, missed a w; should be czerwiakowianum.


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## Paph_LdyMacBeth (Apr 14, 2009)

Ernie said:


> One of my favorites is Phrag czeriakowianum! I used to pronounce every syllable per zer-wee-ack-ow-ee-ann-um, but was schooled to say it sher-va-cove-ee-ann-um.
> 
> -Ernie



Now there is a discussion I would like to witness oke:


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## Elena (Apr 15, 2009)

Ron-NY said:


> Well let's see his father was one of the Vienna Rothschilds but his mother was of the British Rothschilds clan and upon her death he moved to England. so do we use the British or the Viennese pronunciation, LOL



*runs off screaming* 

:rollhappy:


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## Heather (Apr 15, 2009)

I'm not sure that's the right spelling for that...


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## Ernie (Apr 15, 2009)

Heather said:


> I'm not sure that's the right spelling for that...



czerwiakowianum- I corrected a typo in the original post. Some people spell it boisserianum though.  

-Ernie


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## Leo Schordje (Apr 15, 2009)

Ernie said:


> czerwiakowianum- I corrected a typo in the original post. Some people spell it boisserianum though.
> 
> -Ernie



Named after Pierre Edmond Boissier the famous Swiss Orchid collector - Of Course ! Was that French, German or Italian speaking Swiss. Or like most Swiss citizens - all three.


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## GaryB (Apr 15, 2009)

Paph_LdyMacBeth said:


> I was at an orchid show a year ago and I witnessed two men "arguing" over the pronunciation of the word Keiki. I put arguing in quotations because they were not at all having a discussion/argument about the pronunciation of the word, but a discussion about a plant that had only ever grown keiki's.
> 
> One man would use the word pronounced one way, and the other would use the word his way. Every time they would use this word they would get louder and slower (as if they were speaking to someone who didn't understand the language). They probably went on for a good couple of minutes, it was really quite humorous for those of us listening.
> 
> Now I believe the word Keiki is Hawaiian? So, I am sure there is a correct pronunciation and one of these men was right. Hardly worth arguing over in my opinion...everyone will put their own intonation onto pronunciations anyway. "Potato. Potato. Tomato. Tomato."



From the Maui visitors guide for pronouncing Hawaiian words:

keiki (KAY-kee) child or children


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## streetmorrisart (Apr 15, 2009)

Totally funny, all of this. I'm still scared to open my mouth in public! I started reading books about orchids before I knew any "orchid people", so I mentally pronounced all of the names based on my Classical Latin training. Once I put this into play in person, I got everything from laughs to disdainful corrections. Now I understand it's different! Bellatulum is one that makes my head really hurt...the pronunciation could be as dignified and appealing as the plants, but it sounds like a disease when the horticulture crowd in the know speaks their names.


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## WolfDog1 (C. Williams) (Apr 15, 2009)

The Orchidist's Lexicon book is $8. It's a small paperback book, but I find it worth the price. PM me and maybe I can get together several of you who want one and get a good discount on them. 

Craig


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## Heather (Apr 16, 2009)

streetmorrisart said:


> Totally funny, all of this. I'm still scared to open my mouth in public! I started reading books about orchids before I knew any "orchid people", so I mentally pronounced all of the names based on my Classical Latin training. Once I put this into play in person, I got everything from laughs to disdainful corrections. Now I understand it's different! Bellatulum is one that makes my head really hurt...the pronunciation could be as dignified and appealing as the plants, but it sounds like a disease when the horticulture crowd in the know speaks their names.



I cannot tell you how many times Brian (Likespaphs) has corrected me when we speak in person. I think part of it is the internet and the fact that we type more than we speak. My biggest regret is not having taken a Latin course. I could really use it now!


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## Leo Schordje (Apr 16, 2009)

streetmorrisart said:


> Totally funny, all of this. I'm still scared to open my mouth in public! I started reading books about orchids before I knew any "orchid people", so I mentally pronounced all of the names based on my Classical Latin training. Once I put this into play in person, I got everything from laughs to disdainful corrections. Now I understand it's different! Bellatulum is one that makes my head really hurt...the pronunciation could be as dignified and appealing as the plants, but it sounds like a disease when the horticulture crowd in the know speaks their names.



If your Classical Latin class was taught in the USA, more or less - that is the correct way to pronounce the botanical words that came from latin, except those from Greek ....etc. 

I know some of the St. Louis area AOS judges, they could use a refesher course on Latin pronounciations, you go girl! :viking: Your pronounciation is probably "more correct" than those AOS judges. This is of course knowing that there is no one real "authority". 

It is enough to drive a one bonkers.


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## Ernie (Apr 16, 2009)

Usually, if you sound out all the syllables, you're on the right track. Vowels next to each other seem to give the most problems (ae, ii, etc). Just do your best. In the Smithsonian Museum's fish division, I'd commonly hear the same name pronounced five+ different ways. We all knew what the other was talking about though- that's the whole point. 

-Ernie


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## NYEric (Apr 16, 2009)

THat's why I like talking to people *here*!


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## JeanLux (Apr 17, 2009)

NYEric said:


> THat's why I like talking to people *here*!



I totally agree Eric!!!!  !!!! Jean


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## PaphMadMan (Apr 17, 2009)

One very important thing to remember... Anyone who makes you feel embarrassed about the way you pronounce an orchid name is a jerk. No one alive today speaks Latin as a native language, and modern botanical usage incorporates names of people and places that bring in spellings and pronunciations the Latin was never meant to have. Educate yourself, make a good faith effort, and roll your eyes at anyone with a superior attitude.


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## goldenrose (Apr 17, 2009)

streetmorrisart said:


> Totally funny, all of this. I'm still scared to open my mouth in public!...
> Bellatulum is one that makes my head really hurt...the pronunciation could be as dignified and appealing as the plants, but it sounds like a disease when the horticulture crowd in the know speaks their names.


:clap: :rollhappy: :clap: :rollhappy: I feel like we're 2 peas in a pod! After 25+ years of teaching dog obedience classes, I have a big, loud mouth but when I'm in public, not sure how to pronounce a name, it's amazing how I can whisper and then they're going 'what', (because they can't hear me) and that's when then panic sets in & I shorten it! You know, nice bella! (No disease in this name!)




NYEric said:


> THat's why I like talking to people *here*!





JeanLux said:


> I totally agree Eric!!!!  !!!! Jean



I'll make that 3!


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## Ron-NY (Apr 17, 2009)

we all try our best and can't ask for better. I try to listen to others and ask when I am not sure. Most of my latin pronunciation come from learning medical terms. There can be a big difference form here in the US and in Brittan with the pronunciation of the same words.


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## NYEric (Apr 17, 2009)

Not to mention those funny accents! :evil:


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## ORG (Apr 17, 2009)

It is really interesting to read this thread as an european who has learned in school the traditional latin with the oldstyled classical pronounciation.
Latin was used for the plant- and animalnames that we have a possibility to understand over all language-borders.
But when I came the first time to USA I could not understand a lot of the names because the pronounciaton was so far away from the original. Then I learned also the pronounciation. But again Germany and other states in Europe it is really necessary to return to the classical way of pronounciation.
But I had more problems in Japan or Taiwan with a mixture of the pronounciation between american and asian style.

So it would be necessary to find really an international standard.

One note beside. Also when the name of a plant based on a name like Phragmipedium boissierianum var. czwerwiakowianum then we should use the latinized pronounciation, not for boissierianum the french and then for czerwiakowianum the polish.

Best greetings

Olaf


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## likespaphs (Apr 18, 2009)

PaphMadMan said:


> One very important thing to remember... Anyone who makes you feel embarrassed about the way you pronounce an orchid name is a jerk. No one alive today speaks Latin as a native language, and modern botanical usage incorporates names of people and places that bring in spellings and pronunciations the Latin was never meant to have. Educate yourself, make a good faith effort, and roll your eyes at anyone with a superior attitude.



exactly! 



ORG said:


> ...One note beside. Also when the name of a plant based on a name like Phragmipedium boissierianum var. czwerwiakowianum then we should use the latinized pronounciation, not for boissierianum the french and then for czerwiakowianum the polish.
> 
> Best greetings
> 
> Olaf



really? that's opposite what i've heard. funny.


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