# Questions about some mass produced phals



## silence882 (Dec 30, 2014)

Hello,

I know nothing about phals (or 'gutter orchids' as I call them), but I have 2 that remain from my wedding 2 years ago that I am sentimentally attached to. I got 20 white ones from a local nursery that didn't come with tags. I sit them next to my paphs under lights and they seem to be doing well. They came in sphag so I have been repotting them in that once a year. I do have a few questions about them though.

Do these things every put out new fans like slippers do? This thing has just grown upward:




It has always bloomed/rebloomed on one spike at a time, but right now it is reblooming on one spike and seems to be putting out a second one. Does this happen on most mass produced phals as they get larger?




What should I do about the aerial roots? So far I've been leaving them alone because they look interesting.





The second phal that I kept almost died right after the wedding from what seemed like a pretty bad fungal infection. It seems to have bounced back since then and root growth is good. During the infection the emerging leaf died back and since then there has been no sign of new leaf growth. Will this plant ever recover to the point where it will bloom again?





Thanks!

--Stephen


----------



## gonewild (Dec 30, 2014)

The answer is.... Yes

They will sometimes make a new growth but normally just grow one upwards.

They will make more than one spike at a time

Leave the aireal roots alone

The plant with a dead center will probably make a new growth from the base.


----------



## Justin (Dec 30, 2014)

first one looks great. keep doing what you're doing. 

second one i would toss, honestly.

please post the white Phal flowers when you have pics...


----------



## PaphMadMan (Dec 31, 2014)

Lance answered your questions. I would just add that the second plant is worth saving if it means something to you. You seem to be managing OK with the sphagnum, but I think both plants would be better off in potting mix like you probably use for most Paphs. The second plant looks dehydrated, probably lacking healthy roots in that sphagnum. Bark mix and a terrarium environment would give it a better chance. Then it just needs consistent care and time.


----------



## Linus_Cello (Dec 31, 2014)

Sorry to be a "Debbie Downer" but I would get the phals tested for virus. It's quite common for mass produced phals to be virused. They are grown in such close quarters, and probably the folks who handled them probably didn't use the most sterile protocols to prevent spread of virus. 

If these plants do mean a lot to you, I would grow them in a separate area (my slippers are at home; the phals are in my office).


----------



## PaphMadMan (Dec 31, 2014)

Well, if you're going to be a downer, I think we have to assume that mass market anything is a pretty good candidate for virus - Oncids, Paphs, Zygos, Catts, whatever - including every other non-orchid plant you might have, and fresh fruits and vegetables, tobacco products, etc. And unless you test every plant in your collection for every possible virus you don't know. Even then there would be some false negatives, and another virus around every corner. 

The only other orchids mentioned here were Paphs, which aren't necessarily highly susceptible to all the viruses Phals might carry, and there is only so much you can do in an average household collection. A greenhouse full of valuable Phal breeding stock would be a different level of concern, of course. I'm not saying the caution about viruses is out of place, but it is easy to blow it out of proportion for a typical home collection. There is a trade-off between worrying more or just enjoying your plants.


----------



## NYEric (Dec 31, 2014)

gonewild said:


> The answer is.... Yes
> 
> They will sometimes make a new growth but normally just grow one upwards.
> 
> ...



Umm, I would mist the aerial roots a few times a day. They all will survive, IMO, just a struggle for the weak one.


----------



## gonewild (Dec 31, 2014)

I think the issue with mass market phals being full of virus is no longer applicable. Maybe in the beginning before the growers were regulated it was a problem. Now Phal producers in Taiwan have extremely modern and clean facilities. They are all inspected and tested on a regular basis for virus on site and plants are inspected and tested when they enter the USA.
Most of the nurseries that supply the mass markets produce millions of plants and they certainly can't afford to grow virused stock.


----------



## gonewild (Dec 31, 2014)

NYEric said:


> Umm, I would mist the aerial roots a few times a day. They all will survive, IMO, just a struggle for the weak one.



Yes definitely mist and water the aerial roots. When i said leave them alone I meant don't cut them off.


----------



## Linus_Cello (Dec 31, 2014)

gonewild said:


> I think the issue with mass market phals being full of virus is no longer applicable. Maybe in the beginning before the growers were regulated it was a problem. Now Phal producers in Taiwan have extremely modern and clean facilities. They are all inspected and tested on a regular basis for virus on site and plants are inspected and tested when they enter the USA.
> Most of the nurseries that supply the mass markets produce millions of plants and they certainly can't afford to grow virused stock.



I would slightly disagree in that the mass market sells these plants as disposable flower arrangements, not to hobbyists who are interested in growing and reblooming these plants. Yes, there is an incentive for the mass market growers to prevent virus, but my understanding is that observable indications of virus do not often show up until the plants are stressed (e.g. in the hands of a consumer treating the plant as disposable). 

Taiwan phal producers selling cleaner plants is new information to me. Hopefully this is the case. But the "big box stores" (grocery stores, home stores, etc) selling phals probably aren't using the best sterile protocols...


----------



## gonewild (Dec 31, 2014)

Linus_Cello said:


> I would slightly disagree in that the mass market sells these plants as disposable flower arrangements, not to hobbyists who are interested in growing and reblooming these plants. Yes, there is an incentive for the mass market growers to prevent virus, but my understanding is that observable indications of virus do not often show up until the plants are stressed (e.g. in the hands of a consumer treating the plant as disposable).
> 
> Taiwan phal producers selling cleaner plants is new information to me. Hopefully this is the case. But the "big box stores" (grocery stores, home stores, etc) selling phals probably aren't using the best sterile protocols...




The big box stores probably don't even know what a virus is much less use good protocols. But it's not likely that many Phals are infected with viruses while on the stores.

It is not only in a big growers best interest to maintain virus free stock it is required by law. If a grower ships plants and they test positive for virus the nursery will loose their certification to import plants into the USA. Considering that may be a complete loss of a market for millions of plants growers are taking care because it would mean 10's of millions of dollars loss.


----------



## cnycharles (Dec 31, 2014)

most questions answered already, i would use another type of potting media. easiest culture answer for phals in general is if you know how to grow african violets successfully, duplicate the conditions for phal hybrids


----------



## silence882 (Jan 1, 2015)

Thanks, everyone, for all the tips! I'll keep doing as I've been doing and see what happens.

Unfortunately I don't have another space where these guys would do well so they'll have to stay with my slippers. The root growth so far has been good in the sphag, so I'm hesitant to change media. They're in clear pots and there's a lot of live moss that grows in the sphag that may be helping things.

I'll post pics as soon as they bloom!

--Stephen


----------



## Clark (Jan 2, 2015)

I have what you have. Very sentimental.
They are in the same sphag for seven years. 
Great plants. 
My only disappointment was I could not get the keiki to bloom while still attached to mother spike. Bud blast galore.
I have read glazed ceramic pots are a no no. Mine are doing fine.
I don't cut the spikes unless they turn brown. The green ones rebloom half the time.
Mine came from wegman's. No bargain.

Happy holidays.


----------



## mormodes (Jan 2, 2015)

gonewild said:


> [snip]
> 
> It is not only in a big growers best interest to maintain virus free stock it is required by law. If a grower ships plants and they test positive for virus the nursery will loose their certification to import plants into the USA. Considering that may be a complete loss of a market for millions of plants growers are taking care because it would mean 10's of millions of dollars loss.



Which certificate requires virus-free plants? Regulations require pest-free plants and soils, but this is the first I've heard about virus-free.

Speaking of which APHIS is asking for public comments on a proposal to allow importation of potted Oncidiums http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=APHIS-2014-0041-0001 to date 10 comments have been posted, one from Dot.


----------



## gonewild (Jan 2, 2015)

mormodes said:


> Which certificate requires virus-free plants? Regulations require pest-free plants and soils, but this is the first I've heard about virus-free.



The requirements state plants must be pest and disease free.
Virus falls under the disease part.

Part of the requirements and process for a Taiwan nursery to be able to export plants in media into the USA is to produce the plants in registered and certified greenhouses. The greenhouses must meet strict and specific requirements to be certified. The requirements are designed to prevent pests and disease from entering the production facility. As well the plants entering the facility must be inspected and certified disease free and the source propagation stock must have been inspected and be disease free. The inspections are done by the Taiwan government agency AND also by a USA APHIS inspector in Taiwan.

The rules if followed will provide disease free plants.

Here is a document outlining the requirements... 
www.toga.org.tw/images/upload/File/1001490780.pdf


----------



## mormodes (Jan 2, 2015)

gonewild said:


> The requirements state plants must be pest and disease free.
> Virus falls under the disease part.
> 
> Part of the requirements and process for a Taiwan nursery to be able to export plants in media into the USA is to produce the plants in registered and certified greenhouses. The greenhouses must meet strict and specific requirements to be certified. The requirements are designed to prevent pests and disease from entering the production facility. As well the plants entering the facility must be inspected and certified disease free and the source propagation stock must have been inspected and be disease free. The inspections are done by the Taiwan government agency AND also by a USA APHIS inspector in Taiwan.
> ...



Nah, I think it's more like this, see paragraph 2. I can only assume that since Phals aren't imported for propagation they don't have to be screened for viruses. The insect protocols you cite and which they ask about in the Oncidium document are sufficient. The microfungi issue had already been exempted back in 2008. Thanks for the learning opportunity.: http://www.aphis.usda.gov/wps/porta...t_pests/sa_plant_pathogens/ct_plant_pathogens


----------



## gonewild (Jan 2, 2015)

mormodes said:


> Nah, I think it's more like this, see paragraph 2. I can only assume that since Phals aren't imported for propagation they don't have to be screened for viruses. The insect protocols you cite and which they ask about in the Oncidium document are sufficient. The microfungi issue had already been exempted back in 2008. Thanks for the learning opportunity.: http://www.aphis.usda.gov/wps/porta...t_pests/sa_plant_pathogens/ct_plant_pathogens



That regulation is specifically about importing the actual plant pathogen organism as in the pest or microbe. The exemption in paragraph 2 means you don't need a separate permit to import the plant if you have a permit to import the pest. yes people do import plant pests on purpose! This is not about importing plants for growing purposes.

Beyond the type of import permit requirements imposed by the USDA on USA importers (such as you referenced) the certifications I wrote about are specific requirements imposed on the Taiwan Exporters and growers before the can even get a permit to move the plants to the USA. The requirements assure that the greenhouses the Phals are produced in are disease free to capable of producing disease free plants.


----------



## ALToronto (Jan 3, 2015)

Who assures it, Lance? Some inspector who was slipped a Benjamin or two ($100-200) to sign a certificate? Is anyone from the US going to visit the mega-nurseries with a suitcase full of virus test kits? 

I posted a comment on the APHIS document.


----------



## gonewild (Jan 3, 2015)

ALToronto said:


> Who assures it, Lance? Some inspector who was slipped a Benjamin or two ($100-200) to sign a certificate? Is anyone from the US going to visit the mega-nurseries with a suitcase full of virus test kits?
> 
> I posted a comment on the APHIS document.



I have no idea if the USDA follows their own law. But the requirement is that the Taiwan nurseries must be inspected by an APHIS inspector. That means that an inspector from APHIS is in Taiwan doing inspections. That is why USDA has allowed the plants to enter the USA in media, because they are satisfied that the facilities, plants and media are disease free.
No they don't travel around with a suitcase full of virus test kits, they rely on tests done by certified labs.
Nurseries are required to test propagation stock plants as virus free before tissue is taken or seed or pollen is transferred to assure the stock is disease free. The propagation labs must be certified and maintained with disease free protocols. Then the disease free plantlets are tested before they enter a disease free growing area. Chances that when the ship out of the growing area they are not infected with virus.

Are the APHIS inspectors taking bribes to allow virused plants to enter the USA? I doubt it.

I'm not trying to defend imports from Taiwan just pointing out that there is no valid reason to assume that imported Phals are loaded with virus.
It sort of appears that the Taiwan nurseries are better organized to produce virus free Phals than any Phal grower in the USA. How many USA orchid nurseries are sealed in with anti-insect screen?


----------



## bullsie (Jan 7, 2015)

Virus test. Unless you know the source quite well. 

While it sounds nice that the USDA, docs and aphis etc are all up and running, yet with the huge import of invasive insects species striking the USA - and it is an established fact that after 9-11 just about everything could enter the country uninspected, or inspected by someone who had no clue the difference between a daisy and a head of cauliflower - I don't know if inspections are up to proper standards by now. Maybe things have changed in this time frame. A few years back, 80 percent of Phals imported were virused. For now, I would virus check. Then you have peace of mind - especially since you are growing all together.

I also think, if your protocol works, don't fix it - good growth and regular blooming sounds like all is working well, and the roots are very nice.


----------

