# Fritz Schomburg triploid and tetraploid



## terryros (Feb 24, 2021)

With Jerry Fischer's permission, I am posting a couple of pictures that Orchids Limited posted on their Facebook page today. During the growth of a bunch of new plants from a standard diploid Fritz Schomburg cross, Jerry and Jason noticed a decidedly different plant in terms of leaf and plant structure. They suspected it was a natural tetraploid mutant. That plant is now in first flower and they happen to also have one of their excellent triploid Fritz Schomburg plants to compare. The next picture shows the two flowers side by side. It is obvious which spike and flower is the presumed tetraploid.




The next picture is of the presumed tetraploid flower next to Jerry's hand (Jerry is an average size man).




It is probably too soon to know if the tetraploid will do any reflexing as it matures, but the flower substance is heavy.

I had been thinking that a chemical conversion of a diploid FS cross was going to be needed to get to a tetraploid, but spontaneous mutation is another way to do it!


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## Linus_Cello (Feb 24, 2021)

Nice!


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## ScientistKen (Feb 24, 2021)

Are you sure that's not a toddler's hand? Pretty awesome. Great form and color too!


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## abax (Feb 24, 2021)

Impressive flower.


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## musa (Feb 25, 2021)

Wow!


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## monocotman (Feb 25, 2021)

That tetraploid is stunning! Yay polyploidy!
If it is tetraploid, then there is a good chance that it will breed...
David


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## monocotman (Feb 25, 2021)

Terry, do you know what the other differences were in the plant, apart from the flower?
David


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## terryros (Feb 25, 2021)

Jerry said he could tell by the leaves and the double thick flower stem.


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## PeteM (Feb 25, 2021)

terryros said:


> Jerry said he could tell by the leaves and the double thick flower stem.


Yeah. Look at that stem.


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## tomkalina (Feb 25, 2021)

Beautiful. Can OL still do chromosome counts?


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## NYEric (Feb 25, 2021)

Yay besseae hybrids! You can almost always tell increased ploidy from the leaves too. I believe the reflex in the petals is due to moisture (or insufficiency thereof) in the internal structure. Thanks for sharing.


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## richgarrison (Feb 25, 2021)

terryros said:


> With Jerry Fischer's permission, I am posting a couple of pictures that Orchids Limited posted .....



WOW to both!  

i just can't look at my FS plants the same way any more... so sad...


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## Duck Slipper (Feb 25, 2021)

Impressive. Are there any drawbacks to tetraploids?


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## monocotman (Feb 25, 2021)

Tetraploids tend to be slower growers than the others but it can vary quite a bit,
David


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## southernbelle (Feb 25, 2021)

Wowwawewo!!


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## terryros (Feb 25, 2021)

tomkalina said:


> Beautiful. Can OL still do chromosome counts?


Tom, I don't think they do since Robert left. I know they have sent some stuff out to a University from time to time.


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## terryros (Feb 25, 2021)

Duck Slipper said:


> Impressive. Are there any drawbacks to tetraploids?


Sometimes they are slower growing than diploids and triploids. You have to be patient. Jerry didn't say if this plant was slower than the siblings in the cross.


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## terryros (Feb 25, 2021)

southernbelle said:


> Wowwawewo!!


I know. We will probably never have a tetraploid FS. A selfing of this one or a chemical conversion of a diploid cross to make it tetraploid will take so many years I will probably have forgotten how to water things.


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## southernbelle (Feb 26, 2021)

Yep, truth hurts, but sometimes we just gotta be real. Amazing for OL!! Hard to imagine what Jason will see in his lifetime, though.


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## monocotman (Feb 26, 2021)

That tetraploid is going to be an amazing parent! 
David


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## NYEric (Feb 26, 2021)

southernbelle said:


> Hard to imagine what Jason will see in his lifetime, though.


That kid!? Are you kidding!?


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## terryros (Feb 27, 2021)

tomkalina said:


> Beautiful. Can OL still do chromosome counts?


In addition to chromosome counts being difficult/tedious, they may not always tell us what we want to know. A plant could have important mutations in genes without having extra chromosomes. I think the terms polyploid and “mixaploids” are getting at the fact that plants like these have popped up since the beginning of orchid collecting. Bigger, thicker leaves and bigger, thicker flowers. Some may be fully tetraploid, but many might just have mutations in particular genes. Chromosome counts would miss all of these. I would guess that full genome analysis of orchids like we use to find human mutations is a long way off because of finances.


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## NEslipper (Mar 17, 2021)

Amazing!


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