# Sorcerer's Apprentice 92 pts



## Hera (Mar 21, 2010)

This one isn't mine, but I took pictures of it at the show in Pittsburgh put on by the Orchid Society of Western Penn. It earned 92 pts. FCC.


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## NYEric (Mar 21, 2010)

92 FCC!? Congrats to the owner, but I really hope you have another photo w/ lots more flowers!!


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## SlipperFan (Mar 21, 2010)

That is the darkest Sorcerer's Apprentice I've ever seen! Wow -- 92 points!


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## smartie2000 (Mar 21, 2010)

That is a far bigger bloom and deeper coloured than usual though...


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## NYEric (Mar 21, 2010)

True but F-C-C!!!???


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## Hera (Mar 21, 2010)

NYEric said:


> True but F-C-C!!!???



Well I didn't see the paperwork, but that's what I was told while I was at the show. I'm sure about the points, but the rest.... there was a lot of buzz going on about the plant and that was what was being said. Now I'm curious to find out the details.


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## toddybear (Mar 21, 2010)

Fantastic!


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## Shiva (Mar 21, 2010)

I'll need to read the official description for that one. Hera, do you know the name given to this cultivar?

Oops! Got the answer before I even wrote.


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## SlipperKing (Mar 21, 2010)

Sorry but that's NOT Sorcerer's Apprentice. It's a hybrid of one but that is NOT, I repeat NOT S. Apprentice
It looks like my Intel's Tears


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## smartie2000 (Mar 21, 2010)

SlipperKing said:


> Sorry but that's NOT Sorcerer's Apprentice. It's a hybrid of one but that is NOT, I repeat NOT S. Apprentice
> It looks like my Intel's Tears



Rick, I had the same thought. But I didn't want to be the first to say it because I didn't know what else it would be off the top of my head.


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## Hera (Mar 21, 2010)

Good lord, I should know better than to open my mouth unless I have the nitty gritty details. These were the facts as I was told them. I was just excited that there was something awarded so many points at a show that I went to. It was my husband's first time at a show too, and he was very impressed by the beauty and diversity. 

Obviously I don't have enough facts for the pros, did anyone else go to the OSWP show?


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## SlipperKing (Mar 21, 2010)

This is SA













Inti's Tears


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## Leo Schordje (Mar 21, 2010)

Sorry Hera, I know you are just the messanger. I agree with Rick that it is mislabelled. But rather than Inti's Tears, I would guess that it is *Phrag Les Dirouilles (Sorcerer's Apprentice x Grande), *Eric Young Foundation first made this cross as the 4N form, and years later remade by Fritz Schomburg. He created a huge number of flasks of this cross using 4N parents some 6 or 8 years ago, most were whole-saled through Quintal Farms in Hawaii. The tags used by Quintal Farms at that time had the bad tendancy to fade and become hard to read. If the exhibitor missed the x Grande part on the tag, that's where the mistake was made. There are quite a number of mature seedlings of this cross around. No way is that photo of Sorcerer's Apprentice, but Les Dirouilles is quite possible.


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## Scooby5757 (Mar 21, 2010)

I can't promise it is or it isnt a SA, but I had the same thought as Rick...it looked like my Inti's Tears...nicer than mine though and a real polyploid from the looks of the pouch









A bunch of these came out, some SA 4N x wars. 'Ron'. Two or three have been awarded, as Inti's Tears...


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## Leo Schordje (Mar 22, 2010)

So Hera, please don't feel bad. The 'jumping' that you are seeing is because guys like Rick and myself are really tired of AOS judging centers getting obvious identification problems wrong. And what is worse, once an award is published, the AOS has no provision to go back and correct the mistakes. So we tend to jump up and down a lot, mostly out of frustration. 

We know it was not your plant, and I think I will quietly give a polite call down to someone I know in the Cinncinnatti judging center. Hopefully they are still in the loop and able to look into this. 

Thanks for letting us know about it. 
Leo

P.S. Actually I have seen fewer errors in the Phrag identification the last 5 or 10 years, AOS jugdes have been trying to be more careful. But this one is an obvious mistake.


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## Pete (Mar 22, 2010)

i agree with all of you guys, its not Sorcerer's Apprentice, Leo probably has it right.. and regardless which SA cross it is, its just not an FCC. this is what ive been talking about lately, it seems, in a bunch of threads about awards.. i feel like FCC's should like never be given out... or extremely rarely.. a 85-89 point AM is *super high*.. FCC is like.. i dunno. perfect.


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## Hera (Mar 22, 2010)

Thanks for having patience with me guyes, I was just excited. Usually I take pics of the plant and the tag right after, but with having husband and child in tow, I was trying to snap quick pics and keep moving. The info I had was from other people from the show.


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## NYEric (Mar 22, 2010)

Fcc!?!?
I'm no expert on green phrags but ...if that got an FCC!?!?


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## smartie2000 (Mar 22, 2010)

Can we un-award something that just got awarded? sorry I have a feeling that is a stupid question.

I hope it was not a FCC, but an accident by Hera (no offence)

And do they change the names of the awards that are wrong inside the database which the judges use? Obviously the measurements on those mislabelled plants should not be used for comparing plants. (or maybe they should add notes under them or something)
There is schlimii 'wilcox' and a handful of hangianum hybrids that are labelled as emersonii (like Sugar Suite). I doubt all judges can tell the difference with the recent hangianum mix ups!


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## aquacorps (Mar 22, 2010)

Leo, AOS judges never make mistakes, just ask them.


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## Ernie (Mar 22, 2010)

aquacorps said:


> Leo, AOS judges never make mistakes, just ask them.



I never make misnakes. And that looks a lot like our Les Dirouilles. Inti's Tears would be another good guess. 

-Ernie, AOS Judge


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## Hera (Mar 22, 2010)

No offense taken, but this has certainly been a learning experience for me.


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## NYEric (Mar 22, 2010)

FCC - First Class Certificate, is like the highest award for flowers!! Look up the FCC's given and you'll see why this got such a response.


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## Leo Schordje (Mar 24, 2010)

smartie2000 said:


> Can we un-award something that just got awarded? sorry I have a feeling that is a stupid question........
> 
> And do they change the names of the awards that are wrong inside the database which the judges use? Obviously the measurements on those mislabelled plants should not be used for comparing plants. (or maybe they should add notes under them or something)
> There is schlimii 'wilcox' and a handful of hangianum hybrids that are labelled as emersonii (like Sugar Suite). I doubt all judges can tell the difference with the recent hangianum mix ups!



Your questions are perfectly reasonable, I have asked them myself. 

Unfortunately Fren, to the best of my knowledge as of the last time I checked, maybe 2004, the AOS has so far refused to address these issues. Once an award is published, there is NO mechanism for going back and changing anything, at all. At least that is the way it was as of 2004 or so. It might be different now, but I would not be surprised to hear nothing has changed.

However, before an award is published, the AOS Judging Center chairman can make corrections, there is usually a couple month time period between the judging session and the publication of the award where where changes can be made. The Judging Center chairman has to sign off on it, but it is possible. 

Ernie or any other judge want to weigh in? Am I right in this?


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## aquacorps (Mar 24, 2010)

Leo, email Dr. Gary Kraus. He is head of judging for AOS and will know the answer. He is a decent fellow who will reply to your email. I have his address if you need it.


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## tim (Mar 24, 2010)

There is a policy for challenging awards - another judge has to challenge an award in writing, and the challenge is reviewed by the Judging Committee. I have no idea if this has ever been done, but it's been on the books as a possibility for maybe 3-4 years (?).


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## NYEric (Mar 24, 2010)

Someone let me know if this won an FCC and I'll draft the letter, otherwise I'm taking a lot of plants in for judging!


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## Drorchid (Mar 24, 2010)

I agree with Leo and Rick, Definately NOT a Sorcerer's Apprentice, but an Inti Tears or Phrag. Les Dirouilles

Here is a picture of one of our Phrag. Les Dirouilles (4N) for comparison:





Robert


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## Hera (Mar 25, 2010)

Gentlemen, before you start yanking awards away from people, don't you think you should request the official photo of the plant. All this talk is begining to snowball. Remember, I was at a crowded show, with a husband and kid, and I couldn't get close enough to the plants to photograph properly, and most importantly I'm an amature hobbyist. I think I'm more likely capable of a mistake than a judge. I got the info from others at the show and I couldn't see the paperwork first hand. Perhaps I shouldn't have threaded this, but I was excited, it was a great show with plants that I haven't seen in my area before. Please request an official photo before you assume that I'm infallible. What if I was shown the wrong thing to begin with. I know paphs better to differentiate between them than I do phrags. After seeing the pictures posted, I know that I still may not know the difference without seeing the tag. I'm seriously regreting this thread.


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## Drorchid (Mar 25, 2010)

Hera said:


> Gentlemen, before you start yanking awards away from people, don't you think you should request the official photo of the plant. All this talk is begining to snowball. Remember, I was at a crowded show, with a husband and kid, and I couldn't get close enough to the plants to photograph properly, and most importantly I'm an amature hobbyist. I think I'm more likely capable of a mistake than a judge. I got the info from others at the show and I couldn't see the paperwork first hand. Perhaps I shouldn't have threaded this, but I was excited, it was a great show with plants that I haven't seen in my area before. Please request an official photo before you assume that I'm infallible. What if I was shown the wrong thing to begin with. I know paphs better to differentiate between them than I do phrags. After seeing the pictures posted, I know that I still may not know the difference without seeing the tag. I'm seriously regreting this thread.



Don't blame yourself, you were just the messenger! It is always exciting to see an FCC plant, so we understand your excitement as well. It was just that the picture you posted put some doubt in some of our minds if that was really a Sorcerer's Apprentice. Maybe you took a picture of the wrong plant (which I doubt, but mistakes do happen), but if this was indeed the plant that got an FCC, we were just debating what the correct identity was, and what should be done if a wrong identified plant gets an AOS award, which in itself is an interesting debate.

So, THANK YOU for posting this thread!!! (and don't feel bad about it).

Robert


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## Hera (Mar 25, 2010)

I have a retraction, it was an HCC not FCC. Someone else that was at the show confirmed that designation. Like I said it was crowded and there were several conversations going on about this plant.
However, the picture is the correct plant according to the one they have as well. I am working on getting a copy of their picture.


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## Hera (Mar 27, 2010)

Here is the picture from somone else that went to the show. She also took a picture of the paperwork, and she is going to send me a copy. I'll post when I get it.


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## SlipperKing (Mar 27, 2010)

WhooWee, you sure had us going! Thanks for the update it's appreciated.


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## Hera (Mar 27, 2010)

Here's the document ( thanks to a more observant grower than I), and it is indeed Sorcerer's Apprentice. And a 92 point HCC. (MY BAD!)

You can't quite see it but the grower is Marriot Orchids.


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