# Check this e-bay offering out



## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Sep 4, 2010)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Paphiopedilum-c...283?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eafac0e5b

I could be wrong but in my mind there is a very good chance that this is not the species that they claim. Then, check out the shipping costs. I contacted the vendor and tried to explain how ridiculous this was. He said that it is over a 4 inch pot and with the bark wet that he had to figure on 15 pounds then so much for packing material and tape and ... Then when I respond that I didn't feel it was a fair price he said he just went to Krull Smith web site and put in a fake order and the shipping was almost the same cost. I just dropped it at that point. I didn't check Franks side but I believe that Frank no longer offers any paphs. The vendor also compared his shipping with Orchid Limited shipping costs. Is it just me or what?


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## PaphMadMan (Sep 4, 2010)

I buy from many eBay vendors and others on a pretty regular basis. The plant is over-priced and the shipping cost is ridiculous. I'll pay whatever I have to to get a plant I really want, but I doubt I'll ever buy from that vendor. That's a business that has or is going to have some serious problems.


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## John M (Sep 4, 2010)

He probably sells snake oil too! That is a nameless hybrid, worth about $20 at Home Depot. It's got charlesworthii in it's background; but, it definitely is NOT pure charlesworthii. The shipping does seem excessive.


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## emydura (Sep 4, 2010)

John M said:


> He probably sells snake oil too! That is a nameless hybrid, worth about $20 at Home Depot. It's got charlesworthii in it's background; but, it definitely is NOT pure charlesworthii. The shipping does seem excessive.



Agree. The shipping is outrageous.

David


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## mormodes (Sep 4, 2010)

the seller says they sell directly from Hilltop Orchids in Indiana. Are they reputable?


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## Kavanaru (Sep 4, 2010)

LOL if you trhink the price of that Paph hybrid is ridiculous, check this offer: http://cgi.ebay.com/ORCHID-MONTH-CL...795?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eaf8f127b (same vendor! - free shipping!)


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## Kavanaru (Sep 4, 2010)

mormodes said:


> the seller says they sell directly from Hilltop Orchids in Indiana. Are they reputable?



with those prices and ebay shop.. I don't think so! (or this ebay vendor is just misusing their name... )


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## etex (Sep 4, 2010)

Sounds very strange- crazy amount of fine print on his listing, and steep price for plant and shipping. Until I looked at his feedback as a seller- he sold a 2 growth, with one new growth, P Harold Koopowitz for $257.49 last month.
It appears he stopped selling for a few years after lots of negative feedback in '06.


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## Shiva (Sep 4, 2010)

:rollhappy::rollhappy::rollhappy::rollhappy:


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## SlipperKing (Sep 4, 2010)

Obviously Dick and Sandy are out of touch with the real orchid world. They claim growing orchids started in 1954. Give him the benefit and say he started at 15 years old, he would be 71, which equals "out of touch"!


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## etex (Sep 4, 2010)

Kavanaru said:


> LOL if you trhink the price of that Paph hybrid is ridiculous, check this offer: http://cgi.ebay.com/ORCHID-MONTH-CL...795?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eaf8f127b (same vendor! - free shipping!)




That is a good one!!



I like his statement under ebay description for the plant of the month club- "Take this opportunity while you can because it is not very often that you can do business with an accredited AOS judge when you have tough questions"


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## Kavanaru (Sep 4, 2010)

I liked this one better: "_These plants are high quality for future growing, however when it comes to the end of the month you could give them away or keep them for yourself. I don't advocate this but if you are simply using them as decor, you could throw them away like Mums in the fall._"


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## luvsorchids (Sep 4, 2010)

:sob:


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## PaphMadMan (Sep 4, 2010)

Not making any accusations, but if I wanted to launder illegally obtained money I might set up a bunch of fake auctions and bidder accounts, and pay myself with money orders. Just sayin'...


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## etex (Sep 4, 2010)

Or if you wanted positve feedback in case some idiot came looking before buying. But I would have changed store name too, under feedback as a seller-it's not pretty in '06.


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## John M (Sep 4, 2010)

Kavanaru said:


> I liked this one better: "_These plants are high quality for future growing, however when it comes to the end of the month you could give them away or keep them for yourself. I don't advocate this but if you are simply using them as decor, you could throw them away like Mums in the fall._"


 Since they'd be paying over $81.00 each month for each plant, most of which will probably be hybrid Phals, throwing them out after just 4 weeks seems like the only people who will go for this are those that have more money than brains. Plus, at $81.00 for a Phal. hybrid, I don't think saying the shipping is free is true at all. The shipping is obviously being paid for.


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## PaphMadMan (Sep 4, 2010)

etex said:


> Or if you wanted positve feedback in case some idiot came looking before buying. But I would have changed store name too, under feedback as a seller-it's not pretty in '06.



To be fair, they had good feedback history until a bad 6 weeks in '06 when it appears there may have been health issues, then they stopped selling for several years. Recent feedback is limited but all very positive.


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## Ernie (Sep 4, 2010)

I know Dick and Sandy quite well. They wouldn't do their own eBay sales. You're lucky if they return an e-mail. If I want to talk with Dick, I have to call Dick. Someone else buys from them then posts their items once in a while- note the seller is darren0987 and from Terre Haute. Obviously not Dick or Sandy from Cloverdale. It's probably labeled properly in the pot as a chuck hybrid, this Darren dude didn't bother to pull the tag up far enough to see the whole name or something. If you like the flower, the plant price is okay, but, yeah, shipping is over the top. Dick does grow in "mud" but it should never weigh 15 lbs for a 4" pot. 

Dick knows his orchids, epsecially phals, paphs, & phrags. I'll vouch for HIM there. Not exactly sure of his age, but I doubt he's 71. I'll try to tell Dick that Darren is spoiling their good name. 

Mud is a soilless mix based on coconut coir and lots of perlite. He grows phals, paphs, and phrags very well in it, but I repot any plants I get from them promptly because I don't know how to do mud myself. 

Anyway, my two cents.


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## SlipperFan (Sep 4, 2010)

What's wrong with being 71? Don't we all hope to be there someday? Why does age have anything to do with being "out of it." 

Just askin'


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## GaryB (Sep 4, 2010)

Don't mis the opportunity to buy ...AWARD WINNING PLANTS AND *CULTIVATORS* from Darren.

I'm thinking this one looks pretty good:








I can't understand why Dick would let Darren use Hilltop's name on Ebay. It's like me buying orchids from Oak Hill Gardens, then opening an Ebay store named "Oak Hill Gardens" and saying "Oak Hill Gardens" has expanded to Ebay.


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## GaryB (Sep 4, 2010)

Ernie said:


> Dick does grow in "mud" but it should never weigh 15 lbs for a 4" pot.



A 4" pot filled with concrete isn't going to weigh 15 lbs


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## Lanmark (Sep 5, 2010)

OMG! Wow! Just wow! Oy!

And a _cultivator_ too as GaryB pointed out! :rollhappy:

I'll have to disagree with Slipperking and agree with Slipperfan that age doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it. My grandmother lived to be 101 and she didn't even start to get "out of it" until she was about 98. Even so, she was still able to successfully live alone until only 4 months before her death. Being "out of it" can be due to any number of reasons, conditions or attitudes.

I want to agree with what Ernie said since I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. That being said, I had been planning on purchasing Phal. I-Hsin Spot Eagle 'Montclair' (Ta-Lin Spot X Black Eagle) from the Hilltop website but now I'm not so sure I want to make such a transaction. This whole thing seems way too risky to me now. 

The plant I want is listed on their website for $34.95 plus shipping. Shipping charges are quoted as being at actual cost plus 5% of the sale price or $10 (whichever is higher) for packing materials. Surely in the real world it shouldn't cost more than $15 and more likely only about $11 for a flat rate priority box at USPS to send a well-packaged compact plant from Indiana to Michigan. Add in that enormous $10 packing fee and the shipping still should top out at no more than $25. The site, however, states that they prefer to ship via 2nd day air using USPS, so this would theoretically bring the actual shipping cost up to around $23 when destined for my home. Add in that whopping $10 for packing materials, and the shipping costs become $33 -- only slightly less than the price of the plant -- for two day service! At Orchids Limited I recently paid $35 for guaranteed overnight FedEx delivery of a package to my home.

Now if we were to factor in some incredibly heavy potting and packing methods at Hilltop which could somehow make my package weigh a hefty 15 pounds, the cost to ship to my destination would rise to about $56 plus another $10 for that massive packing materials charge.

There's no way a 4 inch potted Phal in a box with packing materials could weigh 15 pounds. Packing materials for a single very compact Phalaenopsis plant in a 4 inch pot couldn't possibly cost more than $5 total even if you count the costs of the box, some kraft paper, some styrofoam peanuts, some tape and the ink used to write the label.

I'd like to think Dick and Sandy and their son Rich are going to treat me better than this Darren guy who is seemingly representing them on eBay, but I'm having a whole lot of doubts now about even making this purchase. My other alternative is Norman's. :sob:


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## John M (Sep 5, 2010)

Ernie said:


> It's probably labeled properly in the pot as a chuck hybrid, this Darren dude didn't bother to pull the tag up far enough to see the whole name or something. * But, he does list the clonal names of the parents. So, he must have pulled the tag and read the whole thing. Or, he just doesn't know what he's talking about. Or, he is trying to rip off some poor sucker.*
> 
> I'll try to tell Dick that Darren is spoiling their good name. *I'll say. I had a look and the whole thing gives the impression that you are dealing with Hilltop Orchids. I've never dealt with them; but, without reading the comments in this thread, I'd not have realized that this was not Hilltop's Ebay auction. Based on the various issues with the auction, I'd have decided to never ever deal with these people. I wonder how many potential customers this auction is scaring away from them?
> 
> Notice that out of the 3 plants, the one you get is the crappy one with the worst form and poor colour.*


..


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## Lanmark (Sep 5, 2010)

Oooooooh... a "Chain-Huey" and an "Unbollomed" Paph druryi.  Spelling is just atrocious everywhere you look. Some of his plants are _hybirds_ making me wonder if they can fly... :rollhappy:

...and pity the poor soul who placed the bid on this one. If you look closely at the tag on the plant in the photos you will see that the name of the plant doesn't match the title of the auction but rather it matches the name of the plant being offered in his other violacea auction. Look at the tag on the other violacea he is offering and you will see that the photos are in fact switched. I think both are overpriced anyway. Add in $9 for packing and another $13.25 to $76.05 for shipping (who knows?!) and the buyer has got themselves a fantastic little package deal. *NOT!* oke: 

I notice he is using statements about _cultivators_ in at least three of his Phrag auctions, saying _"This plant should be easy to maintain for people who are beginners, however master growers will be able to turn this plant into a cultivator,"_ or _"This plant should be used used as a cultivator based on the parent plant qualities if you like to play around with size."_ I think what he is trying to say is that the plants should or could be used for breeding. In other instances his use of the word _cultivator_ is clearly implied to mean _cultivar_, but his language skills seem to prevent him from distinguishing one word from the other.


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## etex (Sep 5, 2010)

GaryB said:


> Don't mis the opportunity to buy ...AWARD WINNING PLANTS AND *CULTIVATORS* from Darren.
> 
> I'm thinking this one looks pretty good:
> 
> ...


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## GaryB (Sep 5, 2010)

etex said:


> What the heck is that thing?



It's a cultivator, of course. Probably awardable too.


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## Candace (Sep 5, 2010)

Flat rate shipping costs being what they are...$35 for shipping makes no sense.


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## Shiva (Sep 5, 2010)

GaryB said:


> A 4" pot filled with concrete isn't going to weigh 15 lbs



A nice gold mix might do it. :crazy:


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## PaphMadMan (Sep 5, 2010)

Shiva said:


> A nice gold mix might do it. :crazy:



Or plutonium. A terrorist scheme for smuggling prohibited nuclear materials.


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## Kavanaru (Sep 5, 2010)

PaphMadMan said:


> Or plutonium. A terrorist scheme for smuggling prohibited nuclear materials.



Don't say that too loud!!! you will soon have not only CITES but also the CIA interfering with the Orchids Hobby in the USA!!!oke:


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## PaphMadMan (Sep 5, 2010)

Kavanaru said:


> Don't say that too loud!!! you will soon have not only CITES but also the CIA interfering with the Orchids Hobby in the USA!!!oke:



I'm sure Homeland Security already monitors this board.


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## Shiva (Sep 5, 2010)

PaphMadMan said:


> I'm sure Homeland Security already monitors this board.



And I read years ago in the AOS Bulletin that the FBI was investigating orchid growers who bought HID lamps thinking they were growing marijuana. We're definitely on their list of suspects. 

No doubt some people are wondering why I have those bright lights on late in the evening. However, living in Canada in a widely known area for marijuana culture (Quebec Gold), they shut up, just in case the police turn it's attention to them :noangel:


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## Kavanaru (Sep 5, 2010)

LOL I already had the police in my flat in Switzerland.. one weeks after installing T5 lights, they came to see whether I had Marihuana in my appartment...


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## rdlsreno (Sep 5, 2010)

Buyer beware.

Ramon


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## Clark (Sep 5, 2010)

Since the electrical upgrade 10 days ago, I have never felt safer in my development. :ninja:


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## Shiva (Sep 5, 2010)

Just had another idea.

Maybe the pots and potting mixes are feather light, so they put lead in the bottom of the pots to keep the plants from tipping over. :rollhappy:


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Sep 5, 2010)

A lot of Ebay sellers inflate shipping because Ebay doesn't take a cut out of that. However, the good Ebay dealers do not take too great an advantage of that. There is no excuse for that high a shipping charge for a paph. If the medium is too heavy, they should at least offer bare-root shipping. Its cheap, and for paphs, I think its preferable. I don't know how many potted paphs I have received with minimal to no roots. I have grown paphs in a "mud mix" of cocopeat and lots of perlite. They do OK, but make minimal root growth. I think bark is much better.


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## GaryB (Sep 5, 2010)

I've traded a couple of emails with Darren, who does appear to have a business relationship with Hilltop Orchids. So I apologize for implying otherwise. I think he is well meaning but is just a guy selling orchids for Hilltop and doesn't really know much about them. He did ask if I knew what the hybrid might be, but I'm not really sure.


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## Lanmark (Sep 6, 2010)

GaryB said:


> I've traded a couple of emails with Darren, who does appear to have a business relationship with Hilltop Orchids. So I apologize for implying otherwise. I think he is well meaning but is just a guy selling orchids for Hilltop and doesn't really know much about them. He did ask if I knew what the hybrid might be, but I'm not really sure.



Sadly, this does not reflect well on them at all. The guy is nigh unto illiterate, and he doesn't know orchids either.  Add to that some ridiculously high asking prices for average to below-average plants, absurd shipping charges and those inflated packing fees and Hilltop Orchids has just plopped itself onto the fast track to a permanently ruined reputation. I certainly won't be buying from their website now as I had been planning to do. This eBay portion of their operation was quite eye-opening, to say the least, and learning of it here has likely saved me a whole lot of heartache just in the nick of time.


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## goldenrose (Sep 6, 2010)

If I really wanted a plant from Hilltop, I'd deal with them direct & see if they were going to be at shows coming up, avoiding the shipping all together! My guess is that they'd do shows in western MI. & what vendor whould not bring a requested plant with them?


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## Lanmark (Sep 6, 2010)

goldenrose said:


> If I really wanted a plant from Hilltop, I'd deal with them direct & see if they were going to be at shows coming up, avoiding the shipping all together! My guess is that they'd do shows in western MI. & what vendor whould not bring a requested plant with them?



Good idea!


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## gonewild (Sep 6, 2010)

Witch hunt?
Burn um at the stake!

In two days and 5 pages of posts this thread has convicted Hilltop. 
Burned their reputation. At the very least charred it.

And all because someone else is reselling plants that they grew.

WOW!


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## Lanmark (Sep 7, 2010)

gonewild said:


> Witch hunt?
> Burn um at the stake!
> 
> In two days and 5 pages of posts this thread has convicted Hilltop.
> ...


Hardly a witch hunt. Hardly burning anyone at the stake. We've been discussing and commenting on what we have seen and uncovered to date. This eBay seller is representing himself as being an extension of the Hilltop Orchids business enterprise, not just as a reseller of their products, and true or not, it indeed reflects badly on Hilltop Orchids. That's just a fact. None of us want to buy from this eBay seller. Can you blame us?! But no one here, from what I've seen, has completely written off Hilltop Orchids just yet.

I guess you've missed the parts where some of us have said we would like to give Hilltop the benefit of the doubt, the parts where at least three people are making efforts at communication with the eBay seller and/or Hilltop's owners to ascertain exactly what affiliation there is between this eBay seller and Hilltop, and the part where one of those persons has already received at least some preliminary if not corroborated confirmation that there is an actual business relationship between said eBay seller and Hilltop.

Also, some of my comments were, in fact, directed directly at Hilltop's policy of charging a $10+ packing fee which is in addition to their shipping fee. I think it is excessive, and I am not ashamed to say so. I also agreed with Rose that a good way to do business with Hilltop might be to have them bring a plant to a local show so I could purchase it there. That hardly sounds like boycotting them to me. I'm keeping my options open.

A reputation is indeed a precious commodity. None of us have been spreading rumors. We have all simply commented on the facts as they've appeared before us plain as day on eBay's pages and on Hilltop's website. Why deny the fact that something like this gives me pause and makes me wonder whether or not I want to do business with Hilltop? It's the truth! I hope to learn more about this situation in the near future. This isn't the end of the story, and it could go either way. They may be totally exonerated. They might not. I don't have a crystal ball. Outrageous eBay auctions like those we've been referencing herein are going to make people talk. There's no way around it. I will neither blindly condemn Hilltop nor blindly give them 100% of my support. I'll wait until all the facts are in before my mind is made up. That's my two cents and then some.


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## NYEric (Sep 7, 2010)

I dont think its a witch hunt, just someone pointing out some problems w/ an eBay auction. THe plant is miss-labled, teh shipping price is high (although that is an old way to make a profit on ebay), and it does present the image that it is from Hilltop directly.


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## goldenrose (Sep 7, 2010)

etex said:


> What the heck is that thing?





GaryB said:


> It's a cultivator, of course. Probably awardable too.


:rollhappy::rollhappy: BTW Gary - I couldn't agree more, someone took great care, look at how nice & shiny & well groomed and it had to work about as hard as the cultivars on our benches!
Come on Lance - didn't you find this funny? at least worth a little chuckle? .........laughter is the best medicine!
That does bug me when someone has multiple gross spelling errors, I'm grabbing the dictionary all the time!



NYEric said:


> I dont think its a witch hunt, just someone pointing out some problems w/ an eBay auction. THe plant is miss-labled, teh shipping price is high (although that is an old way to make a profit on ebay), and it does present the image that it is from Hilltop directly.


I don't think it's a witch hunt either. At first I felt guilty but then went back & reread the whole thread. Well ..... 
I'm really trying ......
I can't bite my tongue.........
and how did Nick's auctions go? We were chastised for that too. Serious hobbyists are what's keeping alot of orchid growers in business, we're willing to pay the price if it's reasonable, there's nothing wrong with that. I work at Jewel (grocery store), they do have higher prices than competitors but they also have customer service & selection that the competition is not even coming anywhere near and that's what keeps the customers coming thru the door in these hard times! Sounds to me like Darren is maybe trying to get ahead & afterall ebay is the quick easy way to let your computer work for you while you do nothing but collect the money right? It's a learning experience for both, they both can survive but they need to make some changes, together or seperately ASAP.


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Sep 9, 2010)

Hi Guys and Girls. I started this post and thought at this point it was my duty to chime in. Since I started this post Darren has apparently signed up as one of our members in order to defend himself. Apparently, once you sign up you can P.M. someone yet not be able to post for a number of days. In any case Darren like myself doesn't want to get into a argument with anyone. He read our posts and took them to heart and feels that most of these problems where possible created by himself rather then Hilltop Orchids. He is trying to change some things but will need the approval of the owner before changing anything. He however has already changed his listing and is working on drastically reducing the price of shipping. As we all know they will need to do that in order to survive in this rough economy. Darren also wanted me to mention that he is willing to communicate with any and all of us in order to make things better. Before, writing this I went to the members list and still don't see his name Darren0987 as a member, yet he has contacted me a few times. I suggest we all get together and try to give him as much help as we can. He is willing to listen and correspond with all of us.


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## Candace (Sep 9, 2010)

Hi Bob,
I changed a setting on that user ID. For some reason it was in the wrong "group" and not showing up as registered. Thanks for the heads up.


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## goldenrose (Sep 9, 2010)

Bob in Albany said:


> Hi Guys and Girls.....
> He however has already changed his listing and is working on drastically reducing the price of shipping. As we all know they will need to do that in order to survive in this rough economy. Darren also wanted me to mention that he is willing to communicate with any and all of us in order to make things better.....
> I suggest we all get together and try to give him as much help as we can. He is willing to listen and correspond with all of us.


:clap::clap: Darren - consider bareroot shipping, on medium - large size plants it can make a difference in the weight & also the size of the box. Most experienced hobbyist are probably comfortable with their own mix & will repot the plant anyway. As a seller on ebay, I'm almost preferring bareroot as it tells me exactly what kind of root system that plant has, as a buyer, one of the first things I or they see is the roots, great way to make a first impression! 
If a person wants it shipped inpot then there could be an additional charge. I had a seller request the empty pot, they had the potting media but wasn't sure on the pot size needed - that was no problem!


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## nikv (Sep 9, 2010)

I think all-in-all this has been a rather informative and educational thread. And I would also like to welcome Darren to the board! Hopefully, this forum can help him learn about orchids an improve his eBay business. I've been growing orchids for over twenty-five years and I'm still learning from others on this board, too. As for eBay auctions, I find that most Paphiopedilums are in need of repotting anyway when they arrive, so bareroot is ideal.


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## Lanmark (Sep 9, 2010)

Bob in Albany said:


> Hi Guys and Girls. I started this post and thought at this point it was my duty to chime in. Since I started this post Darren has apparently signed up as one of our members in order to defend himself. Apparently, once you sign up you can P.M. someone yet not be able to post for a number of days. In any case Darren like myself doesn't want to get into a argument with anyone. He read our posts and took them to heart and feels that most of these problems where possible created by himself rather then Hilltop Orchids. He is trying to change some things but will need the approval of the owner before changing anything. He however has already changed his listing and is working on drastically reducing the price of shipping. As we all know they will need to do that in order to survive in this rough economy. Darren also wanted me to mention that he is willing to communicate with any and all of us in order to make things better. Before, writing this I went to the members list and still don't see his name Darren0987 as a member, yet he has contacted me a few times. I suggest we all get together and try to give him as much help as we can. He is willing to listen and correspond with all of us.



I'm glad to know that I was not jumping to conclusions or hunting witches as Lance asserted. Darren0987 is not simply reselling products grown by Hilltop Orchids, but in fact he represents the owner of Hilltop Orchids on eBay and must get his permission to change some things. I'd like to think any scorching that occured will only improve things in the end. I know grilled steaks can be very tasty indeed, and second chances are priceless.
_____________________

I would like to say "Welcome" to Darren too!  I'm not looking for impossible bargains when shopping at eBay. I am actually quite happy to pay fair and reasonable plant prices and fair and reasonable packing and shipping fees, provided the plants are reasonably healthy, reasonably well-protected inside their boxes and promptly shipped. I do expect someone who sells me orchid plants to be at least somewhat knowledgeable about what they are selling to me. We all make mistakes, but the appearance of the listings in question seemed to reflect not only a poor level of knowledge about orchids but also an alarming level of carelessness when spelling proper plant names and other words. A seller who takes the time to get it right when spelling cultivar (not _cultivator_) names such as 'Ching-Ruey' (not _'Chain-Huey'_) will keep me from worrying that my package might get lost in transit due to an address label filled with gross spelling and numerical errors. I hope you can get your listings cleaned up, Darren. Doing so will present a much better image and greatly help to improve sales. Be very careful as well not to mix up the plants, the plant photos, the plant labels and the auction titles. It's heartbreaking to purchase one thing, wait expectantly and then receive something altogether different. Following through to make sure every customer receives what they have paid for is essential if you hope to build a base of happy, satisfied customers who return again and again and who tell all their friends about how wonderful it is to do business with you.


etex said:


> I like his statement under ebay description for the plant of the month club- "Take this opportunity while you can because it is not very often that you can do business with an accredited AOS judge when you have tough questions"





Ernie said:


> I know Dick and Sandy quite well. They wouldn't do their own eBay sales. You're lucky if they return an e-mail. If I want to talk with Dick, I have to call Dick.



As a customer I'd also like to know that Dick would actually return my emails and answer my questions if I were to have any.
_____________________

So that's what I have to say about all of this at this point in time. Again, welcome, Darren, and good luck with getting your eBay listings all sorted out. I'm a reasonable sort of guy, and I offer my sincere apologies if my prior criticisms offended you. 

I happen to take my orchid hobby very seriously. I expect someone who grows and sells orchids to do the same. Every penny counts in this economy -- and that's where I was coming from.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Sep 9, 2010)

Bare root paphs are always best. For one thing, if the seller sees that the roots are bad then amends can be made before a customer gets upset.


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## Ernie (Sep 9, 2010)

Yes. It's good to have some of this cleared up. I hope it turns out for the best.


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## etex (Sep 10, 2010)

I'm a recent convert to bare root shipping. You know what the roots look like, and save enormous amounts of money over shipping in pot!


Darren,
Welcome to the forum! You'll find there are many helpful people here! I have only been growing orchids for 2 years and I am so grateful to the other serious hobbyists here who answer all my questions.


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## Lanmark (Sep 11, 2010)

Lanmark said:


> names such as 'Ching-Ruey' (not _'Chain-Huey'_)



'Chian-Huey' is actually more likely what you were trying to type. Both 'Ching-Ruey' and 'Chian-Huey' happen to be valid cultivar names. :wink:


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## darren0987 (Sep 12, 2010)

Hello everyone. I am Darren0987, and I am finally able to post on a forum. As Bob has indicated, Hilltop Orchids now has a store on Ebay. Since I am pretty good with a computer, Dick Wells took me in to run an Ebay business not even a month ago. I look forward to speaking with anyone that has issues, problems, or general questions. If I can not answer it with 100 percent confidence, then I will get the answer for you within a day or so. Please give the store a visit and give me some input. I am still learning as we all are, but I think most problems have been hammered out. I have grown orchids for 7 years, and have a collection that is well over 300 plants. I have Orchid Wiz to find information about 98% of the plants I sell. I have a masters degree in economic geograhpy from Indiana State just to let some of the posters know I am not stupid. (It has been indicated in past posts) I have known Dick Wells for over 5 years now, and he and I discussed how internet sales was a good thing for business. The more product we move the more breeding we can do and expand hybridizing to bring everyone new crosses. So this is the relationship I have with Hilltop, a little about me (because some think I am stupid according to posts), and finally a way to contact me for information. We are still evolving, however I think if you all visit the store, you can see vast improvements. In addition, I have taken bare root shipping under advisement, however it is not my call. I would say if the plant is in bloom we would not do it, but all others I feel is possible in my thoughts, I just need Dicks approval. I will try to get back to anyone who messages me within 24 hrs, however it may take longer due to other obligations and the simple everday bumps life throws at you. I would like to close in saying thanks to Bob for taking the high road and speaking for me when I had no voice to defend myself even though he had legitimate complaints about the web site that I have changed already for the most part.

Thanks,
Darren
Hilltop Marketing Director


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## Lanmark (Sep 12, 2010)

darren0987 said:


> I have a masters degree in economic geograhpy from Indiana State just to let some of the posters know I am not stupid. (It has been indicated in past posts)



Welcome, Darren!  I sincerely mean it. You've made a lot of improvements to your auction pages, and it shows. You are on the right track, but now comes my constructive advice. I don't know a more kind or gentle way to state this, so I will simply be blunt. Believe me, I wouldn't bother to tell you any of this if I simply didn't give a rat's ass. I do care, however, and I am trying very hard here to be fair and honest with you and to help you understand something very important about marketing. Read the auction title for eBay item number 200518650983. What is an unbollomed orchid -- an orchid which is unsullied by the touch of Gollum's evil brother, Bollom? If you think calling an orchid "unbollomed" doesn't make you look stupid, you need to think again. Your Store description at eBay, furthermore, still states:

"QUALITY ORCHIDS GROWN AND SHIPPED DIRECTLY TO YOU FROM HILLTOP ORCHIDS. WE CARRY RARE, ONE OF A KIND, AND SPECIMEN QUALITY ORCHIDS. ON A FEW OCCASIONS WE WILL BE OFFERING DIVISIONS OF AWARD WINNING PLANTS AND *CULTIVATORS*."

Fix these things if you want people to take you more seriously. You may have an education and you may be knowledgeable about orchids, but at eBay, you and your grammar aren't doing a very good job of showing it yet. Call me rude. Call me crude. Call me whatever you want. At least I am being honest with you, and I am trying my damnedest to help you improve your game. You can get defensive about it, or you can try to improve. You will look much more professional if you clear up all of your spelling errors.

Good luck with your eBay sales! I do hope Hilltop succeeds in its business ventures.

Over and out. :sob:


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## GaryB (Sep 12, 2010)

Lanmark said:


> As a customer I'd also like to know that Dick would actually return my emails and answer my questions if I were to have any.



It could just be a generational thing regarding email. If you called him, he may talk to you all day.


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## Lanmark (Sep 12, 2010)

GaryB said:


> It could just be a generational thing regarding email. If you called him, he may talk to you all day.


True.  Maybe he could tell me why the name on the tag on the plant shown in the photos for this auction still doesn't match the name given for the plant in the title of the auction even though I pointed out this error several days ago. oke:

Darren has obviously put a lot of effort toward clearing up the confusion over shipping charges, but so far he hasn't addressed some of the other really important issues including plant photos not matching the auction titles and descriptions.

I think I'll just shut up now and watch what happens from here on out. I've already said way too much. You'd never know it, but I'm really not a snarky person. I admit I've sure come across that way lately. I like to call things as I see them. Sometimes being painfully blunt and honest is a good thing, but there's also something to be said for politeness and tact. I realize as well that my opinion is not always desired, requested nor appreciated, and I'm thinking that it's probably best if I just shut my mouth and live and let live. Those who will succeed shall succeed, and those who will self-destruct shall self-destruct, myself included.


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## darren0987 (Sep 13, 2010)

I am still hammering out all the details that everyone has shared. I have made some progress as far as shipping. You will notice some offerings now have different shipping methods. Bare root, spike cut, or both. The plants we will do $17.00 shipping on (bare root and spikes cut if needed) are determined by an elevated standard shipping rate, weight of the plant, irregular box, or a combination of everything. Much above $25.00 and we will offer it. However, we do reserve the right not to offer it on certain items. We will share why if anyone inquires, but it could be several reasons; it just depends on the plant. Each listing will have a statement if it meets the criteria.

Also, a few posters have been interested in certain spellings ect. A few are just plain mistakes. But large amounts are due to character limitations. Sometimes you can get your point across by spelling a word incorrectly to save characters, but you still get your point across. I think everyone would agree it is not the greatest grammar; however they understand what you are saying. On the mistakes in spellings, well I keep trying spell check and it never shows any thing. I actually don’t think it is working at all. So I will start my ads in word and paste them in to ensure proper grammar and spelling. Well I have been very busy so I must go now. Check out the improvements and new selection at the store. There are some real fine plants.


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## darren0987 (Sep 13, 2010)

Yep, you were right, and we were able to pull them quick enough that nobody bought one. When ever there is any question we do a verification. The error was done while flasking at another facility. The actual plant is:
charlesworthii Top Hat X Black Cherry
X
charlesworthii Top Hat 
3/4 charleswothii, and looked very similar to some and very different from others. Well hope this sloves any quesions about that subject.
Darren0987


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## Lanmark (Sep 13, 2010)

Looking good! :clap:


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## Ernie (Sep 13, 2010)

Good job Darren.


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## Lanmark (Sep 13, 2010)

Darren, I can't help but notice that this plant is still being advertised as Baden's Blue x Gulfstream when in fact the tag on the plant in the photo states July Fourth x Amazing Grace.

The other violacea which you just sold a couple of days ago as being July 4th x Amazing Grace showed the photo of a plant which was tagged as Baden's Blue x Gulfstream.

Everything else, however, is truly starting to look a helluva lot better!
Now I'll have to start watching for something I might want to buy.


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## darren0987 (Sep 13, 2010)

I understand the confusion, however when I went in to change it, ebay restricted it because it was too close to the end of the auction time. The tag is correct on that particular plant. I will see what I can do, but where edits show up at this point may be placed on the ad in an obscure place. I will try though. The mistake happend when I was creating templates of species plants and did notice that we had two different violaceas we were working with. Thanks for your input, I am really trying hard and I give refunds if I have too when I make mistakes.
Thanks
Darren


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## darren0987 (Sep 13, 2010)

I put the information about the violacea in the ad. If you go to it now, you can see what I am saying. The change will probably not even be seen because it is at the very bottom of the page. A lot of ebayers bid then read the ad from what I have noticed. Nearly all the time we send the plants we take the pictures of, however if something happens to that particular plant, we always send a larger better plant or give a full refund with no questions asked. I am 100 percent sure the tag is right, which you can see in the picture. It is vague and still an accident, but what you see in the ad pictures is what you get, so this should not be a huge issue (at least I hope). 
Thanks
Darren


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## Lanmark (Sep 13, 2010)

darren0987 said:


> I understand the confusion, however when I went in to change it, ebay restricted it because it was too close to the end of the auction time. The tag is correct on that particular plant. I will see what I can do, but where edits show up at this point may be placed on the ad in an obscure place. I will try though. The mistake happend when I was creating templates of species plants and did notice that we had two different violaceas we were working with. Thanks for your input, I am really trying hard and I give refunds if I have too when I make mistakes.
> Thanks
> Darren





darren0987 said:


> I put the information about the violacea in the ad. If you go to it now, you can see what I am saying. The change will probably not even be seen because it is at the very bottom of the page. A lot of ebayers bid then read the ad from what I have noticed. Nearly all the time we send the plants we take the pictures of, however if something happens to that particular plant, we always send a larger better plant or give a full refund with no questions asked. I am 100 percent sure the tag is right, which you can see in the picture. It is vague and still an accident, but what you see in the ad pictures is what you get, so this should not be a huge issue (at least I hope).
> Thanks
> Darren



I think both buyers (the bidder on this auction and the bidder on your previously ended violacea auction) will probably be happy as long as each receives the actual plant shown in the photos on the auction page where the winning bid was placed. This mixup between these two plants was a problem I pointed out here in this thread in one of the posts I made way back on September 5th, three days before the first auction ended and eight days before the second one ended today. I probably should have called or contacted you via eBay in order to more quickly and effectively bring the problem directly to your attention.

Things are truly looking much better now on your auction pages -- more professional, less errors, less confusion! 

On another note...
Do you happen to know how many awards Hilltop has gotten over the years for their plants? I've found one so far, Phal Black Peoker 'Rich's Ruby' AM/AOS, which is said to have originated from Hilltop.


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## darren0987 (Sep 14, 2010)

Phalaenopsis Darrin Nathan Wells (Phalaenopsis Flight of Birds x Phalaenopsis Carolina Red Aileen) 2001 Midamerica monthly judging. HCC/AOS 79pts

Phalaenopsis Hilltop Rich (Phalaenopsis Carolina Red Aileen x Phalaenopsis Golden Bells) 2002 HCC/AOS 75pts (Hilltop Hybrid)

Phalaenopsis Hilltop's Jewel (Phalaenopsis Golden Peoker x Phalaenopsis John Ewing) 2007 Midamerica monthly judging AM/AOS 81 pts

Doritaenopsis Linda's Rosey Cheeks (Doritaenopsis Memoria Alice Ainsworth x Phalaenopsis Cathay) AM/AOS Cincinnati (Hilltop Hybrid) 80 pts

Phalaenopsis Sandy's Cottontop (Phalaenopsis Sandy Wells x Phalaenopsis Land O' Cotton) HCC/AOS 77 pts Midamerica 2005

Phalaenopsis Shelby Katelyn (Phalaenopsis Golden Music x Phalaenopsis King's Ransom) 2 awards. One by Hilltop, One by a customer. HCC/AOS 2001

Thats what I know off hand. I think there are more, but I will have to ask Dick. Who knows, there is so much breeding that it is hard to track anymore. Hope this helps. Also, yes if you need my attention it is easy to catch me on ebay messages. They go striaght to email as well.
Thanks
Darren


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## Justin (Sep 14, 2010)

I have a few nice plants in my collection that originated with Hilltop...Oakland Nursery here in Columbus seems to get a lot from the them wholesale. I have a P. Macabre from Hilltop via a fellow OS member that I really like.


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## SlipperFan (Sep 14, 2010)

I have purchased quite a few nice plants from Dick over the years. One I posted not long ago, Phal. mannii: http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17406&highlight=mannii

Dick has his strengths and weaknesses, just like the rest of us. He is a good grower, although I would not use the same growing media he has used in the past, but I would not bad-mouth him.


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## Lanmark (Sep 15, 2010)

SlipperFan said:


> I have purchased quite a few nice plants from Dick over the years. One I posted not long ago, Phal. mannii: http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17406&highlight=mannii
> 
> Dick has his strengths and weaknesses, just like the rest of us. He is a good grower, although I would not use the same growing media he has used in the past, but I would not bad-mouth him.



I suspected he was a pretty good grower. Seems like I've seen him at the GLOS in the past. I just questioned the way things were going with those eBay auctions there at first. They really didn't leave a good impression. Now, however, things are looking much better in that regard. 

I still don't care for the $10+ packing fee as listed at the Hilltop website, a fee which is in addition to the actual shipping charges, but I do understand time and expense are involved in packing and shipping. I just think the fee is a bit much. Maybe I'm out of touch.

Indeed we all have our strengths and weaknesses, Dot. :wink::noangel: <- me​


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## Justin (Sep 15, 2010)

Now that i think about it i have a lot of plants from Hilltop--like i said they wholesale to a local nursery here, and sometimes it is hard to pass up something nice in bloom when I stop in. 

As someone here mentioned, Hilltop seems to grow everything in "mud" (pro-mix, which is peat-based medium with perlite). It is not a bad system for orchids if you know how to water with it. I actually keep the plants in that mix for catts and oncidiae in smaller pots. Paphs and phals, or oncidium in larger pots, I repot out into my usual bark mix. I can also vouch for the quality of their pot-plant-market orchids -always nice blooms.


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## darren0987 (Sep 15, 2010)

I agree with the heavy mix that Dick was using made it a little more difficult to grow for most people, however he has a setup that makes it work. We all know that everybodys growing conditions are different. I found the best way to fine tune your growing is to get some cheap plants (A few dollars) that don't look so good and try to bring them back to health using a very specific method that you create. Of course, there will be some that will die, but when one thrives, you know that you are on to something.

Also, Dick has changed just recently to a slightly lighter mud mix and added about 20 percent rice husks. This really helped and made the plants grow like mad. I will say, I have seen some really wierd potting mixes, but nothing like this before, nor have I seen a change in potting mixes make this big of improvements on the plants.


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## gonewild (Sep 15, 2010)

Lanmark said:


> I still don't care for the $10+ packing fee as listed at the Hilltop website, a fee which is in addition to the actual shipping charges, but I do understand time and expense are involved in packing and shipping. I just think the fee is a bit much. Maybe I'm out of touch.



Is their $10 fee per plant or per shipment?


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## Justin (Sep 15, 2010)

darren0987 said:


> Also, Dick has changed just recently to a slightly lighter mud mix and added about 20 percent rice husks. This really helped and made the plants grow like mad. I will say, I have seen some really wierd potting mixes, but nothing like this before, nor have I seen a change in potting mixes make this big of improvements on the plants.



That's interesting. I have also found that additional perlite also makes a good ammendment to pro-mix.


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## Lanmark (Sep 15, 2010)

gonewild said:


> Is their $10 fee per plant or per shipment?



Packing and shipping charges are calculated from the subtotal of the order at the rate of 5% for packing fee plus the direct cost for shipping, with a minimum of $10 as the packing fee. The customer assumes all liablity for the plant(s) unless they choose USPS Express Mail® service and allow Hilltop decide when to ship. These terms apply only to their website and not to the way their eBay sales are currently configured.

I'm really torn on this aspect of it. I guess I can see how it's worth it if the plant or plants arrive undamaged, but I still think the fee is somewhat high and should be more flexible for smaller orders. I am sympathetic with their need to control costs and maintain a profit, but in the USA during these tough economic times, customers are struggling too. A competitor who offers great plants and cheaper shipping will be more likely to make the sale. Some people only order one plant at a time. Others order several to be delivered all at once.


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## SlipperFan (Sep 15, 2010)

darren0987 said:


> I agree with the heavy mix that Dick was using made it a little more difficult to grow for most people, ... Also, Dick has changed just recently to a slightly lighter mud mix and added about 20 percent rice husks. This really helped and made the plants grow like mad...



The last time I talked with Dick, he acknowledged that many people have trouble with his mix. Yes, it is now modified. I still don't care for it for mature plants, but I really like it for seedlings -- it's light and moisture-retentive. But even so, I do tend to add a little sponge rock to it to make it more airy.


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## darren0987 (Sep 20, 2010)

gonewild said:


> Is their $10 fee per plant or per shipment?



The way Hilltop charges for packing is really not much different than other people on e-bay or the internet. They use specific boxes for their plants, use the softest cotton they can find to protect the buds, bamboo stakes with butterfly clips or twist ties; which ever is better for that particular plant. In addition, the air space is filled with the soft peanuts. With all of that material used, the charge would be 7 dollars. Very small plants we only charge 4-5 dollars. If another plant can fit into the same box it is 2 dollars. A third in the same box 2 dollars.......and so on. Once a new box is needed full shipping will be paid again. Some boxes for tall Phals. are 12x12x36 so they can get expensive. Ill answer as many questions as you all have. There are some nice plants for sale right now.
Thanks
Darren


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## Lanmark (Sep 21, 2010)

darren0987 said:


> The way Hilltop charges for packing is really not much different than other people on e-bay or the internet. They use specific boxes for their plants, use the softest cotton they can find to protect the buds, bamboo stakes with butterfly clips or twist ties; which ever is better for that particular plant. In addition, the air space is filled with the soft peanuts. With all of that material used, the charge would be 7 dollars. Very small plants we only charge 4-5 dollars. If another plant can fit into the same box it is 2 dollars. A third in the same box 2 dollars.......and so on. Once a new box is needed full shipping will be paid again. Some boxes for tall Phals. are 12x12x36 so they can get expensive. Ill answer as many questions as you all have. There are some nice plants for sale right now.
> Thanks
> Darren



That's not what it says on their website, but I do respect their need to recoup packing costs. The packing fees you have quoted above are more reasonable. I don't know how other sellers still manage to do it for less, but some of them do. Most likely some other sellers incorporate some of their packing costs into the prices of their plants. Hillside's website clearly states that packing and shipping charges are calculated from the subtotal of the order at the rate of 5% for packing fee plus the direct cost for shipping, with a minimum of $10 to be charged per order as the packing fee in addition to the actual cost of shipping. The customer assumes all liablity for the plant(s) unless they choose USPS 2nd Day Air (Express Mail®) as the method for shipping and allow Hilltop to decide when to ship. Based on those policies, the cost for packing and shipping one plant could effectively bump up the real price of a single plant quite substantially over its catalog list price. I'm not saying all this just to be picky. I'm just saying that the fees you have quoted above are in fact lower than the fees which are listed at the website, and the packing fees listed at the website really do "feel" a bit pricey. I'm just saying...for whatever it's worth. Others may not feel the same about this as I do. The only reason we are even talking about any of this now is because of the initial problems which drew everyone's attention in the first place. Things are improving now, however, and we can see it. :wink:

I'm heading off now to check out what you have for sale this week on eBay and at the website. :clap:


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## Ernie (Sep 21, 2010)

Any box over a cubic foot or where the L+W+H is greater than 36" will be a little pricey via USPS if it's going more than a state or four away. USPS has flat rate boxes that do okay for plants that aren't too tall, but most plants are lighter than would make the flat rate a bargain- great for supplies though. For taller plants, they offer shipping "tubes" that work great. All these shipping supplies are free at the USPS web site. Just don't abuse the generosity or the free-ness might go away. For anything over a cubic foot, FedEx is the next best. USPS is very easy because you know what you pay up front. With our FedEx account, we often get billed a little different than our quote at ship time. And it takes weeks to see the charge sometimes. If you walk it into a FedEx Kinkos, you know the price when you pay the cashier, but it's usually more than doing it online. They have different prices for self-serve online w and w/o an account #, walk in a FedEx store w and w/o and account #, and walk in an actual FedEx facility w and w/o an account #.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Sep 24, 2010)

I see there is a villosum now on Hilltop's listing, but for a really high price...something like $69? I hope its awarded....otherwise, no villsoum should cost that much. I got one of similar size from Clackamas this year for maybe $10, and much less shipping.


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## Lanmark (Sep 25, 2010)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> I see there is a villosum now on Hilltop's listing, but for a really high price...something like $69? I hope its awarded....otherwise, no villsoum should cost that much. I got one of similar size from Clackamas this year for maybe $10, and much less shipping.



That auction has ended now. There was no cultivar name mentioned for the plant nor was there any mention of awards being associated with that plant. There was no photo of that particular plant's flower and no mention of its parentage either.The only thing it said was three growths. Is a nice large three-growth villosum worth 62.49 + $14.55 shipping? I don't have a clue. 

Some of the other plants I have seen being offered in the past week or two seem to me to be a little bit overpriced as well...this is just my non-expert opinion. I could be wrong. It's not that I am unaccustomed to spending a pretty penny for a plant. Lord knows I have dropped uber mega dollars on many a plant in recent years, but these have been nice divisions of super rare named varieties of Neofinetia falcata, variegated and dwarf Sedireas, a fine selected Sapphire's Indigo Blue Equalacea (Phal.), carefully tended divisions of extremely rare and collectible varieties of Rohdea japonica and so forth.


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