# Clearex Salt Leaching Solution



## Candace (Mar 22, 2008)

http://rosemania.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/product209.html

I haven't bought any rose products from them, but do buy my Merit and a few other things from them. They sent me an e-mail today and this product was included. I've never heard of it before, but was thinking it may be useful for pre-washing chc or even used, sterilized leca.


----------



## SlipperFan (Mar 22, 2008)

Interesting. Let us know what happens if you try it.


----------



## MoreWater (Mar 22, 2008)

I've used it on a tub of diatomite (experimental s/h setup for catts). When I remember, I use it to leach - the tub has no drainage so salt buildup is pretty serious. Haven't used it on slippers, and haven't used it enough to express any opinion other than that it hasn't harmed the catts.


----------



## Corbin (Mar 24, 2008)

Interesting. Somebody try it on slippers andlet us know how it works. Im chicken


----------



## PaphMadMan (Mar 24, 2008)

Can someone who has this stuff please post the ingredient label? Or point me to the manufacturer's website? The chemist in me is curious...

PaphMadMan (Kirk)


----------



## Candace (Mar 24, 2008)

All I've been able to find out is that it's manufactured by Botanicare but so far haven't found out what's in the ingredient label either. Someone suggested that it was "sugar water". If someone could find the info. I'd be interested in seeing it.


----------



## MoreWater (Mar 24, 2008)

yeah, that's about right. 0.4 % glucose, 0.2% sucrose. Doesn't say what else. 

Does this mean I can make it? I don't know that it's worth having shipped. I have serious solid buildup problems so I basically'll try anything.


----------



## NYEric (Mar 25, 2008)

So the water just tastes less 'salty'. :evil:


----------



## Hien (Mar 25, 2008)

MoreWater said:


> yeah, that's about right. 0.4 % glucose, 0.2% sucrose. Doesn't say what else.
> 
> Does this mean I can make it? I don't know that it's worth having shipped. I have serious solid buildup problems so I basically'll try anything.



It sounds like you can mix a few drops of sugar in distilled water.
It would be so cheap compare to what ever they sell the stuff for?
Who is the chemist in the forum? what the heck is ionic solution?


----------



## Candace (Mar 25, 2008)

Ki, I couldn't even find the ingredients. Where did you see that? I don't know, but if it's this hard finding out what the chemical compostion is....the suspicious part of me says it's because no one would pay for what's in it.


----------



## MoreWater (Mar 25, 2008)

I got the info off the bottle. (yeah, I have one. I think I had credit somewhere to use up)

The logical explanation as to why there are no ingredients floating around is probably simply because it doesn't fall under regulated chemicals. (I am guessing here....) Hence no legal requirement to state ingredients.


----------



## Corbin (Mar 25, 2008)

MoreWater said:


> The logical explanation as to why there are no ingredients floating around is probably simply because it doesn't fall under regulated chemicals. (I am guessing here....) Hence no legal requirement to state ingredients.



that makes sense


----------



## PaphMadMan (Mar 25, 2008)

Hien said:


> It sounds like you can mix a few drops of sugar in distilled water.
> It would be so cheap compare to what ever they sell the stuff for?
> Who is the chemist in the forum? what the heck is ionic solution?



An ionic solution contains any salt-like compound that splits into positive and negative ions in solution. Most water soluble fertilizers would be ionic solutions.

This stuff must have more in it than the tiny amount of sugars that have been discussed here or it wouldn't do anything. Sugar makes a non-ionic solution BTW.


----------



## PaphMadMan (Mar 25, 2008)

MoreWater said:


> I got the info off the bottle. (yeah, I have one. I think I had credit somewhere to use up)
> 
> The logical explanation as to why there are no ingredients floating around is probably simply because it doesn't fall under regulated chemicals. (I am guessing here....) Hence no legal requirement to state ingredients.



That sounds likely, a 'proprietary' formula containing the kinds of things that don't have to be listed. I've heard of using a solution of epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) to leach mineral deposits out of old clay pots. This may be something like that, using a very soluble compound to help loosen up deposits of less soluble ones.

Does anyone who has this stuff have a way to test the pH? Even a mildly acidic solution could do a lot to break up carbonate deposits that are usually the worst part of mineral build up.

PaphMadMan (Kirk)


----------



## gonewild (Mar 25, 2008)

I have some questions.

Something with this product description does not make sense to me. Maybe someone can clarify the purpose.

Why would you want to "unlock the ionic bond between the nutrient and the soil or soilless grow substrate"? A nutrient salt that is locked to the soil is not normally a problem salt. Is it? The salts that we want to flush out of the orchid media are salts that are soluble and not locked. The locked nutrient salts are there for the plant roots to unlock for the plant to use.


----------



## MoreWater (Mar 25, 2008)

PaphMadMan said:


> Does anyone who has this stuff have a way to test the pH?



I can't find my pH meter. Besides, there is only a little clearex left in the bottle so it might be rancid.


----------



## Candace (Mar 25, 2008)

Unless someone can suggest an epsom salt mixture dosage, say x amt. of tablespoons per gallon etc. that has worked for them, I'm going to start throwing my leca out. I hate to do that since the Crop King leca I buy is so expensive-shipping mainly. I've just started noticing this season that I'm starting to have some salt build up specifically on the top layer of leca. I do use R.O. probably don't flush as often as I should and my misters that are on almost constantly in the summer are run off my regular hard water, water line. So, 3-4 years of useage and at least one sterilization and reuse is pretty good to get out of any media I suppose. It's a lot of work to sterilize it and I don't want to waste any more time soaking in epsom salts if it's not going to get it pretty much back to brand new.

I've pretty much decided the hydroton I can get locally might just be chucked rather than sterilized and reused. I spent many hours sterilizing leca this weekend and who knows how much natural gas I used doing it...I think I can pinch pennies in other areas and save myself a lot of work. Just a couple of thoughts I've been mulling over.


----------



## Hien (Mar 26, 2008)

Would it be faster if you use a big pot [throw away condition].
-boil the water
-dump the pebble in there (if you want to cook them thoroughly)
-use a big laddle to stir, then to scoop them out after a few minutes
-Lately, I get more lazy, and I also use a chinese mesh screen wok so I don't have to scoop them out in small portions.

maybe something similar likes the Eastman outdoors 10.5Qt. Aluminum Cooking Set from HomeDepot would work faster too.


----------



## Hien (Mar 26, 2008)

Sorry, I could not link the home depot site to the right item.
It keeps showing all the cooking utensils.


----------



## NYEric (Mar 26, 2008)

Remind me *not* to come over to your house for spagetti Hien. oke:


----------



## Candace (Mar 26, 2008)

Hein, boiling leca is worse than heat sterilizing on the grill. Odor, mess, work etc. and it doesn't take care of the salt build up. Hubby would have fits if I did that in the house. He works from home and doesn't enjoy being fumed out of his job.


----------



## Hien (Mar 26, 2008)

NYEric said:


> Remind me *not* to come over to your house for spagetti Hien. oke:


----------



## John D. (Mar 26, 2008)

From what I remember of chemistry The post of salts dissolving making an ionic solution fits. The + and - atoms disassociate (seperate) when dissolved in water which is a polar solvent (the molecule has a distinct + and - area) which is why it works well as a solvent for salts. If you are using fert with calcium nitrate and magnesium sulfate in the SH as the solution evaporates at the surface you have a local area of high concentration which means that the calcium can bond with the sulfate to form gypsum which is not very soluble. As you said, the well water in your sprinklers may be adding the hardness of the water (other Ca and Mg compounds that are not readily soluble). Using an acid should help remove the deposits before you are boil the leca. Try vinager (acetic acid) or check Lowes or Home depot for Muratic acid - brick wash (it is Hydrochloric acid) If you use it remember add acid to water when you dilute it not water to acid. It creates heat.


----------



## NYEric (Mar 26, 2008)

Ooh Ooh, more fun w/ home chemistry! :drool:


----------



## gonewild (Mar 26, 2008)

Candace said:


> Hein, boiling leca is worse than heat sterilizing on the grill. Odor, mess, work etc. and it doesn't take care of the salt build up. Hubby would have fits if I did that in the house. He works from home and doesn't enjoy being fumed out of his job.



Actually boiling will take care of the salt build up. Hot water will quickly dissolve soluble salts. I'm not sure why you are worried about the mineral buildup on the leca. Most likely the mineral you refer to as salt is actually some form of calcium. Gypsum is a mineral that is used to amend soils and calcium is desirable also. So why are you worried about the mineral deposits?
Just look at the mineral deposits as free oyster shells.


----------



## Candace (Mar 26, 2008)

Because I don't know what it is. Guessing that it's gypsum when it's accumulated salts won't help my plants. And it looks bad. I may try the vinegar route and see if that helps with the build up.


----------



## gonewild (Mar 26, 2008)

You are confusing accumulated salts with insoluble mineral deposits.

When we speak of "accumulated salts" we refer to soluble salts that can and will cause growth problems The problems are because soluble salts easily dissolve in the moisture around the roots causing an increase in the salinity of the water which could result in tissue damage.

The white deposits that you see on the surface of leca, that won't dissolve or wash off are insoluble "limestone". I say limestone because the same type of precipitation are what forms in limestone caves and springs. You pretty much know what the minerals are because they come from the fertilizer you water with. 

The white deposits are not a good reason to discard the leca. But if it looks ugly to you that might be a good reason.  
But so much for leca being re-usable? 
Why not just use the old leca for plants that you add lime to anyway?


----------



## Candace (Mar 26, 2008)

I guess I'm second guessing myself because an AOS judge and commercial grower kind of gave me some sh*t a few nights ago, that my leca was full of salts and would eventually kill my plants. He made a big deal, announcing it to the group and telling everyone in the society not to grow in it because it's collects salts and "look at all these salts". He called it halite which I've never heard that before! But it got me worried. I do think I am confusing salts with mineral deposits.


----------



## gonewild (Mar 26, 2008)

I doubt seriously that you have Halite on the surface of your leca. The judge is wrong.

Halite is pure sodium chloride. Rock salt. It is the name used for naturally occurring sodium chloride salt crystals. It is extremely soluble so much that it will turn to mush in a humid atmosphere. If your white powder deposits on the surface of your media are halite then they would instantly dissolve in water and wash (flush) away. Look closely at the deposits. Do they look like little squarish salt crystals? if so they may be sodium and you need to flush with more water. But I bet the powder looks like a fine white crust just like that would build up on the chrome around a faucet. That is calcium and won't dissolve easily in water.

The "judge" should stick to measuring flowers and not tell people you have Halite on your leca, he really spread false info.


----------



## Candace (Mar 26, 2008)

> But I bet the powder looks like a fine white crust just like that would build up on the chrome around a faucet. That is calcium and won't dissolve easily in water.



That's what it looks like, exactly. I came home that evening and googled halite and was very confused by the statement. I guess I shouldn't start questioning my growing technique based on negative comments. But, I do tend to give more weight to AOS judges/commercial vendors feedback. Of course one AOS judge told me 5 years ago that he was very concerned about my orchids and that they were going to rot. I ignored that comment and I guess I shouldn't have let this one bother me, either. Thanks for pointing out that I was looking at mineral deposits and not salts.


----------



## gonewild (Mar 26, 2008)

Based on the photos of your plants you post you should not second guess your growing techniques. Just because someone is a judge does not mean they have great cultural skills and commercial growers often give biased advice to sway possible customers to their own products or methods but for saying your media is full of halite is very misleading and irresponsible. You should correct his error at your next meeting for the benefit of all the members. Imagine if you threw out all your leca based on his advice, what would that cost you? :fight:


----------



## smartie2000 (Mar 26, 2008)

!!!! halite ...lol:rollhappy: That is quite an erroronous statement, I would have thought an AOS judge would be smarter than that. 
I think I could imagine a judge being fussy enough to take off points because the S/H potting looked crappy though. A possible reason to put nicer looking pebbles on top for judging perhaps?


----------



## Sirius (Mar 26, 2008)

smartie2000 said:


> I think I could imagine a judge being fussy enough to take off points because the S/H potting looked crappy though. A possible reason to put nicer looking pebbles on top for judging perhaps?



Please tell me this is a joke? Do they actually judge something lower based on the media and potting?


----------



## smartie2000 (Mar 26, 2008)

ok I don't have much to back me up on that one, it was sort of a joke.... I personally would not judge based on the potting.
I always thought AOS judges do want plants to look well groomed and well presented. They want us to wash leaves of all residues. Spikes all staked and well presented. Good looking potting might as well be important in the overall presentation. Depending on the judge, maybe crusty looking S/H doesn't define well groomed in his opinion.


----------



## Brian Monk (Mar 26, 2008)

Candace et al. - 

I use a two step process to clean and sterilize my clay pots. First, I soak them overnight in a bleach bath. After the bleach, I soak them in a solution of muriatic acid. They are then rinsed and dried. With this process, they look brand new. All of the white mineral build-up dissolves, and the pots are clean and pathogen-free. I don't see any reason you could not do this same thing with hydroton, leca, or even lava rock.


----------



## Corbin (Mar 26, 2008)

Very Good and informative discussion. the kind I came here for.

Thanks,


----------



## JDY (Mar 26, 2008)

I have used Clearex for a few years now it seems to work. I use 1oz. to the gallon on all my Orchids about every 6 months. When I pot a plant I soak it for 20 minutes then flush with RO water. I use it for soaking coco & leca I haven't used it on old leca with any heavy buildup so I can't say if it would work, but I think it would be worth a try. I haven't checked the pH my meter doesn't work. Paphs, Phrags, Odonts, Cyms I have used it on all of them & it seams to work with no ill effects.
web site http://www.americanagritech.com/product/product_detail.asp?id=1&pro_id_pk=11&pattern=clearex
hope this helps
Jon


----------



## gonewild (Mar 26, 2008)

JDY said:


> I have used Clearex for a few years now it seems to work. Jon



What do you think it does to help your culture compared to not using it?
I am not trying to discredit the product but rather understand if it actually enhances and improves the media in some way.


----------



## gonewild (Mar 26, 2008)

Brian Monk said:


> Candace et al. -
> 
> I use a two step process to clean and sterilize my clay pots. First, I soak them overnight in a bleach bath. After the bleach, I soak them in a solution of muriatic acid. They are then rinsed and dried. With this process, they look brand new. All of the white mineral build-up dissolves, and the pots are clean and pathogen-free. I don't see any reason you could not do this same thing with hydroton, leca, or even lava rock.



Hopefully one of our chemists will comment on the use of muriatic acid.

I'm not sure I would use Muriatic Acid (hcl) to clean the media that the roots actually grow in. It would be good to clean the pots as you do but I think it may turn the calcium carbonate deposits into calcium chloride which would be an undesirable compound in the growing media. Especially for leca which would hold the solution within the pebbles. 
I'm not sure about this, this is just what I think. 
Also the fumes may be somewhat explosive? (hydrogen gas?


----------



## JDY (Mar 26, 2008)

gonewild said:


> What do you think it does to help your culture compared to not using it?
> I am not trying to discredit the product but rather understand if it actually enhances and improves the media in some way.



I think that it helps flush the salt buildup out of the pot. I check with my TDS meter & after using the Clearex & flushing with RO it drops a lot more than with just plan RO.
Jon


----------



## Candace (Mar 26, 2008)

Since the Clearex is supposed to help flush salts, it wouldn't do anything for mineral deposits then, right?

Thanks, Jon. At least we know it doesn't hurt orchids. What medium are you mainly using?


----------



## PaphMadMan (Mar 26, 2008)

JDY said:


> I think that it helps flush the salt buildup out of the pot. I check with my TDS meter & after using the Clearex & flushing with RO it drops a lot more than with just plan RO.
> Jon



Thanks for offering a verifiable observation (the change in TDS vs. RO alone). That's the first thing that makes me think this stuff might be more than bullshit and wishful thinking. The product descriptions I've found online are great exercises in scientific sounding hyperbole but almost devoid of actual information. Still, I'm pretty sure you could get the same benefits from much cheaper products.

PaphMadMan (Kirk)


----------



## Roth (Mar 27, 2008)

The judge meant for sure haYDite, not halite... Then it makes sense. That's a kind of product that looks similar to Leca.

Many people tried haydite for orchids, there were even big advertisements in the orchid reviews woldwide for its use, but what was odd, the plants would make roots and grow to eventually collapse some years laters.


----------



## JDY (Mar 27, 2008)

Candace said:


> Since the Clearex is supposed to help flush salts, it wouldn't do anything for mineral deposits then, right?
> 
> Thanks, Jon. At least we know it doesn't hurt orchids. What medium are you mainly using?




Bark mix for Phrags, Coconut for just about everything else.
Jon


----------



## Elena (Mar 27, 2008)

I've read about people soaking coconut husks first in epsom salt and then in Calcium Nitrate solutions to leach salts.


----------



## Candace (Mar 27, 2008)

Thanks, Sanderianum. Off to google HAYdite now...


----------



## NYEric (Mar 27, 2008)

So now in addition to Epson salt, lime and oyster shell I should add sugar water!?! Sounds like a weird margarita! 
BTW, H.P. Norton stopped using coconut chip products due to yellowing leaves, and problems in Phals. I'm going to change my mix up to include less CHC and more fir bark, or was it pine bark? ??


----------



## Brian Monk (Mar 31, 2008)

gonewild said:


> Hopefully one of our chemists will comment on the use of muriatic acid.
> 
> I'm not sure I would use Muriatic Acid (hcl) to clean the media that the roots actually grow in. It would be good to clean the pots as you do but I think it may turn the calcium carbonate deposits into calcium chloride which would be an undesirable compound in the growing media. Especially for leca which would hold the solution within the pebbles.
> I'm not sure about this, this is just what I think.
> Also the fumes may be somewhat explosive? (hydrogen gas?



Yes, it does turn Calcium carbonate into calcium chloride. Which is soluble in water, as it is a souble salt. So any amount of rinsing would work. I don't recommend using muriatic acid straight. As you have noted, it is hydrocchloric acid. However, it is sold as muriatic acid in much lower concentrations (about 30%) as a swimming pool product. I would think that any number of pesticides would be of a greater danger to your average grower.


----------



## Brian Monk (Mar 31, 2008)

JDY said:


> I think that it helps flush the salt buildup out of the pot. I check with my TDS meter & after using the Clearex & flushing with RO it drops a lot more than with just plan RO.
> Jon



Huh? No offense, but this "test" holds no water. TDS measurements measure Total Dissolved Solids. So the measurement should be HIGHER after using Clearex because the product supposedly helps dissolve the salt build-up.


----------



## Candace (Mar 31, 2008)

I got a gallon jug of vinegar at the grocery store to try. Any suggestions as to how much to use per gallon of water?


----------



## MoreWater (Mar 31, 2008)

Similar question - I think I heard someone say the ph needs to be 4.5 (or was it 4?) for salts to be dissolved - T or F?


----------



## Brian Monk (Mar 31, 2008)

Candace - 

I did try vinegar at first, but the concentration had to be very strong. I would start at 50%, and work up from there.


----------



## Candace (Mar 31, 2008)

> I think I heard someone say the ph needs to be 4.5 (or was it 4?) for salts to be dissolved - T or F?



I'm talking about dissolving mineral deposits, not salts. See, I'm not the only one.


----------



## John D. (Mar 31, 2008)

Candace
What Brian said is a good place to start with vineger. It is a "weak" acid and is diluted to only about 5% as it is sold in the grocery. With the calcium deposits (calcium carbonate etc.) and acid what happens is a chemical reaction to produce the more soluble salts. The acid is consumed as the reaction takes place. The carbonates are also more soluble in weak acids than pure water, solubility increases as concentration increases. The hardness in water is from what is dissolved as the water passes through the soil or rock. Water has Carbon dioxide gas dissolved in it from the air. This makes a weak acid (carbonic)


----------



## JDY (Mar 31, 2008)

Brian Monk said:


> Huh? No offense, but this "test" holds no water. TDS measurements measure Total Dissolved Solids. So the measurement should be HIGHER after using Clearex because the product supposedly helps dissolve the salt build-up.



I'm sorry I should have explained it in more detail the TDS was higher at first but at the final flush the TDS was lower on the plant I used the Clearex on. Both plants were Odonts potted at the same time & same size pots. Soaked for 20 minutes then flushed with 2 gallons of RO water each.
Jon


----------



## PaphMadMan (Mar 31, 2008)

Candace said:


> I'm talking about dissolving mineral deposits, not salts. See, I'm not the only one.



Actually, the 'mineral deposits' in question are at least mostly salts, just not readily soluble ones.


----------



## Candace (Mar 31, 2008)

> Actually, the 'mineral deposits' in question are at least mostly salts, just not readily soluble ones.



O.K. Lance said they're good. Now they're bad?


----------



## MoreWater (Mar 31, 2008)

Candace said:


> O.K. Lance said they're good. Now they're bad?



:rollhappy: Quite honestly have not been staying focused on this thread. I remember it being said that minerals are fine, so I assumed you wanted to dissolve salts, not minerals. But whatever it is, does it really matter?  Either they are bad or they look bad, so they have to go pronto. Yes, I'm being a bit simplistic, but I'm having one of those days when I'm thinking I spend way too much time reading/talking/thinking/watering/grooming/mounting/repotting/tossing plants.


----------



## smartie2000 (Apr 1, 2008)

Candace I agree with Lance. If they are calcium deposits,which is likely, you are fine. If any deposit has low solubility I cannot see how it can do much harm anyway since it can only go into the plant via water.
My university's entire plant collection (including orchids) are in old clay pots are all covered in nasty looking deposits and they grow fine.


----------

