# tell me something about my roth.



## annab (May 14, 2013)

I am not sure if this is right place where to post this question,if don't,please move it.
maybe is stupid question.
on the tag of last roth purchased there is write ."rothschildianum orchidfactory02 (MM x chen)x sib"
what does mean ,what kind of roth is?
thanks in advance,anna


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## eggshells (May 14, 2013)

It could be that orchidfactory2 is the clonal name and the parents are (MM x chen)


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## Trithor (May 14, 2013)

It is simply rothschildianum (parents are both decended from MM and Chen), simply put, label it as rothschildianum, and hold your breath in delicious anticipation and wait for it to flower. There is no need to over complicate the situation.


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## Dido (May 14, 2013)

anna why you dont ask him directly he is a nice guy.


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## annab (May 15, 2013)

Dido said:


> anna why you dont ask him directly he is a nice guy.


surely is nice guy,but I suppose that him was very busy,because I send him an emails two day ago ,and him don't have still reply to my question .(but I asked him another question) .
bye and thanks,anna


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## annab (May 15, 2013)

thanks guys,but no one have answer my question,MM , chen and sib .what does mean in pratical. are these letter acronyms of some kind of roth'?
regards ,anna


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## slippertalker (May 15, 2013)

Anna,

the quick answer is that MM= Mont Millais. MM x Chen was a roth cross and two of the siblings were crossed (x sib). This tells us what the strain of roth this was produced from. Mont Millais is one of the better roth plants, at least before the best of its progeny.


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## Trithor (May 15, 2013)

Anna, if you look at my previous reply, it is simply rothschildianum (the parents are both good, so its genetics are good and although it can never be guaranteed, this plant should be good as well)
Be happy and wait for you rothschildianum to flower. It is rothschildianum 'MM' crossed with rothschildianum 'Chen', so it is simply put, ..... rothschildianum. (we often put too much emphasis on parent x parent, the only real importance other than if it is a hybrid, is that if a particular cross proves to be good, someone may wish to buy a plant from the same cross to stand an equal chance of the plant showing the same characteristic.


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## annab (May 15, 2013)

thanks,Bill .
please and Sorry about my lack of knowledge on this subject...,can you tell me who is chen ? 
anna


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## Ozpaph (May 15, 2013)

'Chen' is the clonal name of a particular rothschildianum, as it Mont Millias. The breeder crossed these 2 different plants together to produce many seedlings. TWO of these seedling rothschildianums flowered and I assume he liked them both so he crossed them together (brother and sister plants from the same parents MM X Chen). You have a seedling from that cross.
Trithor is correct, really, its just rothschildianum. Breeders quote the clones used to make the seedlings so they can differentiate their cross from other peoples and sell more plants (if good parents were used.)


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## Ozpaph (May 15, 2013)

this google search shows lots of rothschildianums with various clonal names - see how they vary a bit? You might find 'Mont Millias' in there somewhere. I cant find 'Chen' - but will check Orchid Wiz when I get home.
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=p...AfJrID4BA&sqi=2&ved=0CCsQsAQ&biw=1920&bih=955


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## annab (May 16, 2013)

thanks to all,now I understood.
I know that is irrelevant for grow up my seedling,and that is the first priority all in all for everyone and I know that is essentially a roth and nothing else but I am a curious person too and I have to satisfy this need.now I know what mean that acronyms on the tag of my roth.
Is very hard to find(for me) info about the story and the origin of these charming plants .for example why and who gave the name mont millais at this roth?is mont millais a UK place? (in internet I found nothing)-google say that mont millais is a hotel in uk.
if someone know some link,where I can find new and more,please tell me.
regards,anna


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## NYEric (May 16, 2013)

Mont Millais is a part of the Isle of Jersey, where the Eric Young Orchid Foundation, (EYOF), is. Maybe they had something to do with making this famous clone of rothschildianum. If you search STF for either EYOF or Mont Millais you will find plenty of info.


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## annab (May 16, 2013)

thanks Eric ,now I have one more reason to go in Uk.
so I can visit The display house of Eric young orchid foundation.
of course if my husband is agreed ,for him is very important that when him arrive in england can find -aglianico or barbera wine ,pasta better if gragnano pasta and pecorino romano or parmigiano reggiano di modena.
I think that surely is better if I go lonely too so I can focus on orchid and nothing else:rollhappy::rollhappy::rollhappy:.


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## emydura (May 16, 2013)

annab said:


> I know that is irrelevant for grow up my seedling,and that is the first priority all in all for everyone and I know that is essentially a roth and nothing else



I don’t agree with that. I’m not sure why people are saying the name on the tag is unimportant and all you need to know is that it is a roth. You are right to want to know what the parents names are and it is in fact important to know so. The clonal parents will give you a good indication of what your seedling will look like. The colour, size, shape, spike length, flower arrangement will all be influenced by the parents of your seedling. I recently bought some roth seedlings and I was doing a lot of research into what the parents look like so that I had a better chance of getting a roth I liked. They are not all fantastic.

If the parents are highly awarded (eg. FCC award) you stand a better chance of getting a higher quality plant. Mont Millais (MM) is an FCC awarded clone so that is in your favour. Try to choose seedlings from highly awarded clones. The more recent the award the better. An FCC awarded plant from 1980 would be not as good as one awarded more recently.

My interpretation of your label is the same as the others. That is, that the breeder has previously crossed roths ‘MM’ x ‘Chen‘. He has then grown and flowered those seedlings. He has then I assumed picked two of the best seedlings from those and crossed them to produce your plant. So ‘MM’ and ‘Chen‘ are the grandparents, not the direct parents. Having MM in the background is good and hopefully will produce nice dark flowers like MM. I can’t say I have heard of ‘Chen’ so I have no idea what influences it could have. Good luck with your roth.


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## emydura (May 16, 2013)

NYEric said:


> Maybe they had something to do with making this famous clone of rothschildianum.



I believe Mont Millais was a wild collected plant.


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## Trithor (May 17, 2013)

If I remember correctly, Paul Phillips knows quite a lot about MM. I seem to remember that it was wild collected and that there was some dispute about it and another clone arround at the time, as to weather they were both divisions of the same collected plant.
Concerning the issue of well known FCC parents yielding the best offspring, that is not always true for a number of reasons. Firstly there is the issue of line breeding and award perception/fashion versus actual species characteristics (if you are buying a species for the beauty of the species, or award characteristics, they are not always the same thing. There are a lot of spicerianum and charleswothii arround which do not resemble the actual species anymore). Secondly there are a large pool of great plants out there which have not been put up for award, and would most certainly get awards if they were submitted, many of these have got clonal names like 'Chen', 'Fred's Best' and '#106'. Then there are many plants which have a lower award clasification, but breed better than those with higher awards. Having said all this, yes, progeny from superior parents will on average be better than progeny from inferior parents. But that is not always guaranteed, as genetic expression is more complex than good parent x good parent = good offspring.


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## emydura (May 17, 2013)

Trithor said:


> Concerning the issue of well known FCC parents yielding the best offspring, that is not always true for a number of reasons. Firstly there is the issue of line breeding and award perception/fashion versus actual species characteristics (if you are buying a species for the beauty of the species, or award characteristics, they are not always the same thing. There are a lot of spicerianum and charleswothii arround which do not resemble the actual species anymore). Secondly there are a large pool of great plants out there which have not been put up for award, and would most certainly get awards if they were submitted, many of these have got clonal names like 'Chen', 'Fred's Best' and '#106'. Then there are many plants which have a lower award clasification, but breed better than those with higher awards. Having said all this, yes, progeny from superior parents will on average be better than progeny from inferior parents. But that is not always guaranteed, as genetic expression is more complex than good parent x good parent = good offspring.



I don't disagree with any of that. But you explain why it is important to check out the parents used in the breeding. If you don't want a line bred spicerianum with a flat dorsal, check out the parents that are used. None of the roth seedlings I ordered were produced with awarded parents. But I did check out the photos of the parents to ensure they had traits I liked. As you say this doesn't guarantee I will get plants I like. But flowering seedlings is a probability game. If the parents are high quality or contain traits you like, you increase the odds in your favour. If you just buy seedlings ignorant of the breeding, it is a complete lucky dip.


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## SlipperKing (May 17, 2013)

With all of that said. the only real way to increase your odds of getting a great plant (in your eyes) is to buy quanity! Buy lot and lot of roths!


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## emydura (May 17, 2013)

SlipperKing said:


> With all of that said. the only real way to increase your odds of getting a great plant (in your eyes) is to buy quanity! Buy lot and lot of roths!



Or just fork out the money and buy a top clone. You should be able to afford a MM division Rick.


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## Trithor (May 17, 2013)

SlipperKing said:


> With all of that said. the only real way to increase your odds of getting a great plant (in your eyes) is to buy quanity! Buy lot and lot of roths!



Yup, that is the bottom line


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## Trithor (May 17, 2013)

Errr? David, which part of eveything do you not agree with?
That Paul Phillips knows quite a lot about the MM clone and the roths arround at the time?
That a number of species which have been line bred are very different from the wild species?
That there are a number of unawarded clones of plants in collections that have not been put forward for award, but if they were, they would be given awards
That #106 is a superior clone
That good parents do not nessesarily guarantee a superior seedling
or that non of the above are true?
I never suggested to buy blind, I merely pointed out that just because a clone is unknown to you, does not mean that it is bad, and that offspring are pretty much 'lucky dip' at the best of times, as Rick points out, the only real way to be reasonably certain of getting a good clone is to buy a lot of them (and yes I agree with you, preferably from good breeding lines, as that will give you a better chance of that great clone)

PS #106 is a great clone in hangianum, you will find you have to pay significantly more for its seedlings than most others from awarded parents, and guess what .... it is not awarded.


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## emydura (May 18, 2013)

Trithor said:


> Errr? David, which part of eveything do you not agree with?
> .



I just don't know anymore. I might just bail out now. 

My comments were more directed at Anna who seem to think her original question was in her words 'irrelevant'. I don't want to discourage people from posting, especially beginners. I thought it was a good question because that is not the easiest of labels to interpret.

Anna - here is a photo of Mont Millais for your interest. If yours turns out nice and dark like that you will be very lucky.

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20672


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## JeanLux (May 18, 2013)

Anna, I have a roth that I bought from l'Amazone in Belgium Years ago (still waiting for the first bloom), that is 'Chen' x *'H + H'* (??): so at least some relative of your plant ! Jean


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## Trithor (May 18, 2013)

emydura said:


> I just don't know anymore. I might just bail out now.
> 
> My comments were more directed at Anna who seem to think her original question was in her words 'irrelevant'. I don't want to discourage people from posting, especially beginners. I thought it was a good question because that is not the easiest of labels to interpret.
> 
> ...



You are quite correct, people need to be encouraged to post questions as there is a huge wealth of infomation on this forum, with a lot of very experienced growers who give advice freely and honestly. (a little sparring just adds a touch of friendly spice, and a lot of info which normally would not have surfaced )


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## annab (May 19, 2013)

thanks to all those who have spoken,thorough and complete explanation,now i know something more about roth mont millais .
again thanks,anna


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## Ozpaph (May 19, 2013)

I enjoyed reading and contributing to the thread. Thanks Anna for posting.


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