# Sick leave on Phrag. Eumelia Arias... Advice needed!



## Kavanaru (Mar 29, 2012)

My Phrag. Eumelia Arias has developed some brown dry areas on it's leaves. First I thought it was sunburn and cut off the damaged leaves, and gave it a prophylactic bath with a fungicide... However, the brown areas developed again... I can discard sunburn, as the plant is growing under shade, and also my 5 other Phrags (e.g. Peruflora's Cirila Alca, fischerii, lindenii, wallisi and warszewiczii) that are growing next to it (and under the same conditions and regime) do not develop this problem and are growing very well. Any ideas what this could be and how to treat/solve the problem? Note: the leave are not so yellow as in the pics. I used the flash on my mobile phone and it produced the light yellowish tone.




Phrag. Eumelia Arias 1 by kavanaru, on Flickr




Phrag. Eumelia Arias 2 by kavanaru, on Flickr




Phrag. Eumelia Arias 3 by kavanaru, on Flickr




Phrag. Eumelia Arias 4 by kavanaru, on Flickr


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## Kavanaru (Mar 29, 2012)

Note 2: the brownish powder on some leaves is residues of the fungicide bath...


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## NYEric (Mar 29, 2012)

Too much salt/ not enough water!


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## Kavanaru (Mar 29, 2012)

Receives not more than 120 ppm nitrogen every second watering and is always sitting on a 1 inch deep reservoir of water... Same as the other Phrags...


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## NYEric (Mar 29, 2012)

Then check the roots and media.


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## Kavanaru (Mar 29, 2012)

Ok, was planning to repot it this weekend... It is in this pot/substrat since last spring, as I repot the Phrags on a yearly basis...


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## NYEric (Mar 29, 2012)

The schlimii parent needs really pure water, BTW. Good luck.


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## Kavanaru (Mar 29, 2012)

Just curious, are schlimii hybrids more sensitive than fischeri species? I always thought that fischeri was one of the most sensitive ones and was always proud that it grows very well for me


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## NYEric (Mar 29, 2012)

I've never had really good luck w/ fischeri hybrids so maybe you're correct.


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## Magicboy (Mar 29, 2012)

What kind of substrate do you use?


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## John M (Mar 29, 2012)

I had the same issue with my Phrag. Shimmer 'Carlisle'. There are a number of people who've asked me for a division of this plant; but, I could not get it to increase because as new growths came up, I lost the old growths to a problem like this. Also, then the new growths began doing it! Finally, I repotted it into a mix containing 1/3 pea gravel, I reduced the potassium in my fertilizer and I increased the calcium a bit. Now, the plant is growing beautifully with no more browning leaves. I should be able to make divisions in a year or so. 

I suggest that you cut off all the affected parts of your plant, well down into the healthy tissue and repot immediately, adding a generous amount of pea gravel. I used to add sand, to try and get some silica in the mix; but, the sand kept the mix too wet. So, I switched to adding the gravel and then I got the improvement in disease resistence that I was wanting; but, the gravel continues to allow for good drainage.

Also, you might want to spray the plant with Aspirin water. I disolve 1 regular strengh Aspirin into 1 litre of water and then thoroughly spray the foliage. The ASA aids the plant in resisting infection. So far, since I've started using this, I have been able to stop *all* Erwinia problems that I find. Before, I had often lost plants that got Erwinia, because I just could not stop the rot, no matter how much of the foliage I removed; or how much I sprayed with anti-bacterials.


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## Kavanaru (Mar 29, 2012)

Magicboy said:


> What kind of substrate do you use?



Medium bark mixed with perlite... Originally tried LECA, but the Phrags were having problems with it when I moved to GH conditions....


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## Kavanaru (Mar 29, 2012)

What exactly is pea gravel? 

Interesting the experience with the aspirin... I know of some studies related to ASA in the jungle c plants are attacked by insects... How often do you that?


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## Lycaste53 (Mar 29, 2012)

I had the same problem and after adding some ´Dolomit`(50% CA Co2 + 35% MG Co3) a half teaspoon for a 12cm- pot, things turned and the new leaves look better. Best effort i had with the kovachii.


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## Erythrone (Mar 29, 2012)

John M said:


> I had the same issue with my Phrag. Shimmer 'Carlisle'. There are a number of people who've asked me for a division of this plant; but, I could not get it to increase because as new growths came up, I lost the old growths to a problem like this. Also, then the new growths began doing it! Finally, I repotted it into a mix containing 1/3 pea gravel, I reduced the potassium in my fertilizer and I increased the calcium a bit. Now, the plant is growing beautifully with no more browning leaves. I should be able to make divisions in a year or so.



too bad for the Shimmer 'Carlisle'... Maybe I will get a divivison one day 




John M said:


> Also, you might want to spray the plant with Aspirin water. I disolve 1 regular strengh Aspirin into 1 litre of water and then thoroughly spray the foliage. The ASA aids the plant in resisting infection. So far, since I've started using this, I have been able to stop *all* Erwinia problems that I find. Before, I had often lost plants that got Erwinia, because I just could not stop the rot, no matter how much of the foliage I removed; or how much I sprayed with anti-bacterials.



Thank you for the tip!


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## Stone (Mar 29, 2012)

Be aware that fluoride can cause this problem. Some species such as cymbids are very susceptible. Perlite contains fluoride. It can be nutralized by mixing a little soil with your first watering. Mains water can also contain fluoride. This may not be your problem?


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## SlipperFan (Mar 29, 2012)

I agree with John. Also, Mr. Alfredo Manrique told me that kovachii requires a lot of calcium. I put a lot of oyster shell and chiclid (SP?) sand in my mix, about 20% by volume.


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## Stone (Mar 29, 2012)

SlipperFan said:


> I agree with John. Also, Mr. Alfredo Manrique told me that kovachii requires a lot of calcium. I put a lot of oyster shell and chiclid (SP?) sand in my mix, about 20% by volume.



I must say that I'm skeptical about claims that certain sp. require more Calcium than any other plant. Someone may have an experience where by adding lime they correct a deficiency or bring pH up to where it should be, and conclude that this or that particular plant needs more Ca.


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## SlipperFan (Mar 29, 2012)

Well, Mr. Manrique owns one of the two Peruvian nurseries that legally has kovachii. He's done a lot of research on their native habitat, so I suppose he knows what he is talking about.

http://www.phragmipediumkovachii.com/PKculture/PK-culture.htm

I exaggerated the amount of oyster shell.  Nonetheless...


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## Rick (Mar 29, 2012)

This looks like classic leaf tip burn.

As discussed in the K-lite threads, K is the positively charged half (cation) of a typical salt. As compared to sodium it is much more potent.

If you are using typical "balanced fertilizers with high potassium concentrations with and "pure" or ionically weak irrigation water then its easy to get "salt" burn from the potassium, with little or no calcium to balance it.

There should always be more calcium than potassium in the plants environment.

It's not a matter of certain species having "calcium requirements". All plants require calcium. And in the environment calcium is generally far more common available than potassium.

Various diseases such as Erwinia and Botrytus are also symptomatic of plants with calcium deficiencies caused by excess K (documented for non orchid species). Several of us that have gone to K-lite feeding have seen significant decrease in Erwinia without the use of asprin.

So you might want to refer to some of the K-lite threads we had running for a while, as your phrag looks classic for things we talked about in those threads.


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## Rick (Mar 29, 2012)

Stone said:


> Be aware that fluoride can cause this problem. Some species such as cymbids are very susceptible. Perlite contains fluoride. It can be nutralized by mixing a little soil with your first watering. Mains water can also contain fluoride. This may not be your problem?



Fluoride is a real binder to calcium. That's part of the protective aspect of adding it to drinking water, is that it binds to calcium in tooth enamel making insoluble calcium fluoride (rock). I had a big toxicity test (several years ago) to do with fluoride using (soluble) sodium fluoride. Just about as soon as it hit hard water with plenty of calcium in it, it would produce precipitates that clogged up my system!! Even after soaking in dilute acid some of those precipitates remain today like hard scale deposits.:sob:

The mains water may be at a ppm or two of fluoride, and that doesn't seem to be a problem to plants. If there are high levels of a soluble fluoride salt in Perlite, it could easily get neutralized with dolomite.


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## Stone (Mar 29, 2012)

Mr Manrique uses the following in his p/mix: Granite 50%-acid and can have high K, T/fern-very acid pH3-4 and high K, bark-acid and high K. Obviously all but the most acid loving plants would soon suffer without the addition of liming materials of some kind to bring the pH to the neutral territory of the habitat and to balance the K. My point: kovachii does not need _extra_ Calcium. It needs the same amount as Paph. bellatulum, sanderianum or charlsworthii.


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## Rick (Mar 29, 2012)

pH has nothing to do with calcium concentration (that's regulated by hydroxides and carbonates), and I agree that kovachii has no special need of Ca compared to any other plants. But circling back to the K -lite topic, orchids have even less of a need for K than Ca. And we have plenty of evidence that K is antagonistic to Ca and Mg (causing apparent "deficiencies" of divalent cations). In some cases high K may be countered with addition of Ca, making it appear (conversely) that the plants have a higher than normal Ca requirement rather than an inherent intolerance of high K. 

No need to start this all over again, but several of us have "cured" our problems with phrag leaf tip burn by dropping K and ensuring normal levels of soluble Ca (even while maintaining fairly high N).

What's to loose by adding less to get better results:wink:


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## Rick (Mar 29, 2012)

Stone said:


> Mr Manrique uses the following in his p/mix: Granite 50%-acid and can have high K, T/fern-very acid pH3-4 and high K, bark-acid and high K.



Actually whatever the inherent K is in these plant products, they also have even more inherent Ca, and probably as much Mg as the internal K. As noted from the leaf litter analysis of rain forest plants, plants in general retain more Ca in their tissues than K. K is primarily stored in fruits, tubers, and starchy seeds..corn seed is the prime example. 

Most granites is not high in K (even insoluble forms) or low pH. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granite

The amount of available K in the substrates is negligible compared to the amount added by typical fertilizers. 

The natural karst limestone habitats for kovachii are highly deficient in K.

So correct, kovachii has no special Ca requirement, but an intolerance to high K.


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## Stone (Mar 30, 2012)

Rick said:


> > Actually whatever the inherent K is in these plant products, they also have even more inherent Ca,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Stone (Mar 30, 2012)

Rick said:


> > pH has nothing to do with calcium concentration
> 
> 
> Not so! A high ph in soil or p/mix almost always indicates a high calcium carbonate level.
> ...


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## Rick (Mar 30, 2012)

Stone said:


> Rick said:
> 
> 
> > Not always, Chc and many fern fibers have very high K and very low Ca concentrations. Pine bark has enough K to make it unnecessery to add more for a year.
> ...


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## Kavanaru (Mar 30, 2012)

Wow! Thanks a lot for the tips and the informative discussion... I have been following the K-Lite thread, and had decided to start a test with some friends on our Catasetinae, as we had some issues we have not managed to solve (the good about Catasetinae, is that if it will have a negative impact, you will see results in one growing cycle)... Did not plan to apply to me other p lants, as they are all performing very well, and wanted to see more results coming from you... Maybe I will use I it for my Phrags as well...

Some more detailed information regarding the conditions of my plant in this thread, which is missing:

Aware of the information that Pk needs "extra" calcium, I do add two tsp of dolomite sand to the pot of bot Pk hybrids I have (also to fischeri). Fluoride in the well water is below 1.5 ppm. I use well water, which is pretty soft here, and fertilize with Rain Mix for soft water (Dutch brand, developed according to MSU standards, and pretty similar to it - funnily, when using MSU and RO I started seeing deficiency symptoms in many of my plants, which disappeared after changing to Rain Mix). Perlite, is less than 25% of the substrate... Maybe I should reduce it as well...
what confuses me the most, is that of the two Pk hybrids, only one developed the symptoms shown in the pics above... Actually, this is the only plant in my collection with those symptoms...

As mentioned, I will repot the Phrags today, and check the roots and compared the quality of the substrate in all 5 Phrags...


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## Rick (Mar 30, 2012)

Another compounding factor with K is how different potting compounds selectily retain K rather than Ca/Mg as a Cation Exchange property.

Some things like CHC really likes to suck up K and release divalents. So unless you repot frequently the potting mix can be saturated with K, increasing the effective K dose well beyond the amount pulled by the plant during fertilizing.

Root mass, ratio of root mass to pot volume, feeding rate, growth trajectory on plants all increases the variable nature of the symptoms, not to mention the genetic composition of the individual plant.

Since fertilizers were basically developed for corn and corn is a totally domesticated plant, then you can't tell how many generations of selective presure will it take to get different orchids to "adapt" to a high k regulated environment. Complex phal and catts hybrids may be totally domesticated at this point.

The concept of "success" is relative. When I reduced K I was focused on the problem plants, but I was surprised as to the number of plants in my collection that I considered as already doing good, are better than ever.


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## Brabantia (Mar 31, 2012)

Kavanaru said:


> Receives not more than 120 ppm nitrogen every second watering and is always sitting on a 1 inch deep reservoir of water... Same as the other Phrags...



120 ppm Nitrogen is to hight! I use AKERN Rain Mix at 65 ppm Nitrogen one time per week this is enough. I flush the substrate with rain water one time per month. If you hold the pots in water make some holes (6 mm diam.) at 3 cm from the bottom of the pot that will allow air to renter in the substrate what is not possible if you maintain the bottom of the pot in a level of water.


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## Kavanaru (Mar 31, 2012)

Brabantia said:


> 120 ppm Nitrogen is to hight! I use AKERN Rain Mix at 65 ppm Nitrogen one time per week this is enough. I flush the substrate with rain water one time per month. If you hold the pots in water make some holes (6 mm diam.) at 3 cm from the bottom of the pot that will allow air to renter in the substrate what is not possible if you maintain the bottom of the pot in a level of water.



120 ppm is what I have used for more than 6 years without major problems... As for the pot, that's how they are constructed... 3 cm reservoir and holes at that level... The pot is filled to the top at each watering and the water flushes away, leaving only the reservoir...


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## Kavanaru (Mar 31, 2012)

By the way, I repotted the plant yesterday... Substrate was in good shape (1 year old) roots in the center were dead, but there were plenty of good roots (with active tips) on the sides...


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## John M (Mar 31, 2012)

Kavanaru said:


> What exactly is pea gravel?
> 
> Interesting the experience with the aspirin... I know of some studies related to ASA in the jungle c plants are attacked by insects... How often do you that?



Pea gravel is simply small, rounded gravel, about the size of a large green pea. You can buy it in bulk from landscaping companies.

If you google and look around on the Internet, you will find plenty of published studies that show the benefits of ASA in helping plants to fight off disease. I was skeptical at first; but, I've become convinced now that I've seen the results of using it. I only spray plants that have a problem. I try to grow my plants in an environment and with nutrition that does not encourage Erwinia; but, I do see it in some plants, from time to time. Usually, once a plant gets an Erwinia infection, it is very difficult to stop the infection, even if all the affected tissue is removed. However, I've found that if I remove the affected tissue and then thoroughly spray the entire plant with the ASA solution, the Erwinia does not come back. I've only been using it for a few months; but, I'm very pleased with the results so far.


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## Kavanaru (Mar 31, 2012)

Thanks a lot for sharing the experience with ASA!

PS.- I have checked for pea gravel in Wikipedia, as it made curious...


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## Brabantia (Apr 2, 2012)

@John: what is the ASA concentration you use to drench your plant?


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## John M (Apr 2, 2012)

I disolve 1 regular strength (325mg), tablet in 1 litre of water. I've seen it published that even as little 1 extra strength (500mg), tablet in 2 US gallons (~ 8 litres) works. I haven't used it at that low concentration. I'm happy with the results I'm seeing now and it's not as if I can't afford to use a whole tablet in just 1 litre of spray solution.


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## SlipperFan (Apr 2, 2012)

Even the 1 tablet per litre of water seems dilute!


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## Ruth (Apr 2, 2012)

How often do you spray with the asprin water?


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## Kavanaru (Apr 3, 2012)

SlipperFan said:


> Even the 1 tablet per litre of water seems dilute!



According to the articles I have read, the ASA itself does work against the infection, but induces the plant to activate a defense metabolism producing metabolites that work against the infection. Only very low concentrations of ASA are needed for this.... One of the cases they studied was on trees in the jungle, which (when attacked by caterpillars) produced those defense mechanisms, including as well the production of ASA and some volatiles. The presence of ASA in the ground (due to fallen leaves) and/or the volatiles in the air, were sufficient to induce the activation of the defense mechanism in all trees around the infected one...


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## SlipperFan (Apr 3, 2012)

Kavanaru said:


> According to the articles I have read, the ASA itself does work against the infection, but induces the plant to activate a defense metabolism producing metabolites that work against the infection. Only very low concentrations of ASA are needed for this.... One of the cases they studied was on trees in the jungle, which (when attacked by caterpillars) produced those defense mechanisms, including as well the production of ASA and some volatiles. The presence of ASA in the ground (due to fallen leaves) and/or the volatiles in the air, were sufficient to induce the activation of the defense mechanism in all trees around the infected one...


Interesting -- thanks for the info. Sound a bit like homeopathy.


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## John M (Apr 4, 2012)

Kavanaru said:


> According to the articles I have read, the ASA itself does work against the infection, but induces the plant to activate a defense metabolism producing metabolites that work against the infection. Only very low concentrations of ASA are needed for this.... One of the cases they studied was on trees in the jungle, which (when attacked by caterpillars) produced those defense mechanisms, including as well the production of ASA and some volatiles. The presence of ASA in the ground (due to fallen leaves) and/or the volatiles in the air, were sufficient to induce the activation of the defense mechanism in all trees around the infected one...



I think you found the same study that I found on the Internet. The ASA doesn't itself kill the pathogens, it boosts the "immune response" of the plants to the presence of the pathogens.

Ruth, I cut away all affectdd tissue and spray thoroughly just once. Then, I watch the plant very closely. If I notice any more discolouration that looks like the return of the Erwinia, I spray again. Over all, most plants don't need the second spraying and those that do, so far, have managed to shake off the rot with just two applications. In the past, I've had plants that get Erwinia, for whatever reason...and no matter how much of the plant I removed and dusted with cinnamon or sulfur, the rot came back and killed more of the plant. Some plants simply ran out of healthy leaves to become infected. Of course, with no leavs left, that means the plant was dead.


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## Ruth (Apr 4, 2012)

Thanks for the info, I have paph that I am going to try it on. Hopefully it isn't to far gone.


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