# Heavy fire in Malibu



## Berthold (Nov 12, 2018)

with more than 30 fatal injured people. Mainly caused by local mismanagement?


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## orchid527 (Nov 12, 2018)

It is too soon to tell if local emergency management screwed up the evacuation. The area is bone dry and has years of accumulated underbrush. The strong winds make it impossible to stop the fire. I think this one was moving too fast to get out of the way. My daughter was nearly caught in a forest fire in Colorado a few years ago. The authorities came around and told them to be prepared to evacuate in a few hours and then came back a few minutes later and said *GO NOW*!!! The fire had jumped the ridge. By the time they got out to the main road, the traffic was jammed up with everyone trying to leave. The fire was on both sides of the road with embers blowing overhead. Fortunately, no one died that day.

There may be an issue in forest management where small fires that would normally burn along the ground are put out as soon as they start. This leads to the accumulation of a lot of tinder on the forest floor, so when the fire does get out of control, the entire tree catches on fire. You then end up with fire storms.

We have a problem in the western mountains with the pine bark beetles killing the trees, because it doesn't get cold enough anymore in the winters to kill the beetles. The forest service is doing a pretty good job of cutting down these trees near populated areas, but there are millions of dead trees. So because of all of the dead trees and the accumulated tinder and the dry conditions, we will probably be seeing these fires for years. Mike


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## Berthold (Nov 12, 2018)

orchid527 said:


> There may be an issue in forest management where small fires that would normally burn along the ground are put out as soon as they start. This leads to the accumulation of a lot of tinder on the forest floor, so when the fire does get out of control, the entire tree catches on fire. You then end up with fire storms.
> 
> Mike


Yes, that seems to be the major problem.
In Greece there was the same situation. But now they even burn down every year little amount of tinder.

Second problem I see in regulation for the buildings. 
In Germany each building must be safe against fire attack, which also means a minimum distance between house and trees.

Even the tree houses at Hambacher Forrest were cleared by the police with the argument of missing fire protection.


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## orchid527 (Nov 12, 2018)

I think they are right about being safe against fire. The homes that burned around my daughters home had wood shake roofs or trees too close to the houses.

That said, I believe the big fire in California has burned homes with tile roofs, and it has burned all of the homes in some communities regardless of their landscaping.

The fires really are becoming an issue out west. We've had to make detours during two of our recent vacations because of fires. I've also had to delay backpacking trips because of nearby fires. I didn't want to get caught in a remote location on foot. Mike


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## ehanes7612 (Nov 12, 2018)

These fires have nothing to do with forest mismanagement as they are in developed areas .. too much development and naturally dry areas don’t mix well ... not to mention drier than usual conditions


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## Berthold (Nov 12, 2018)

ehanes7612 said:


> These fires have nothing to do with forest mismanagement as they are in developed areas .. too much development and naturally dry areas don’t mix well ... not to mention drier than usual conditions



It is called mismanagement, if forest management doesn't fit to much developement in dry areas. What about regulations of fire protection of the buildings?


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## orchid527 (Nov 12, 2018)

Ehanes

I believe the fire started in the Plumas National Forest.

Mike


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## troy (Nov 12, 2018)

Donald trump caused my grandmas bunions to flare up!!!!!!!!!!


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## ehanes7612 (Nov 12, 2018)

Berthold said:


> It is called mismanagement, if forest management doesn't fit to much developement in dry areas. What about regulations of fire protection of the buildings?




okay, well, I thought you would broaden the definition


and as far as the second.....in many places where those fires happen, people don't want regulations..the less the better...just like how there are lack of proper building codes in Houston area for flooding, Oklahoma (no basements) for tornadoes...hell, in Seattle the city leaves it up to the builder to make sure their hi rise buildings wont collapse...the city does not even check

and Strict codes for housing costs money..you roll the dice with most housing because developers want cheap and fast..no matter the danger..they wont be living there

I remember the Berkeley/ Oakland Hills fires a while back (1991?..I was living in Newark , Ca) ..every house burned down except one...it was owned by an architect who made the house out of concrete, knowing the area could be destroyed by a fire

There was guy in Eastern Wa in 2015 who made his house into a concrete dome..it survived the devastating fires we had 

I would never live in a fire prone area unless I could build it to resist fire just like if I lived near the beach in Hawaii, my house would be on stilts ...makes no sense to me...humans are kinda stupid


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## ehanes7612 (Nov 12, 2018)

orchid527 said:


> Ehanes
> 
> I believe the fire started in the Plumas National Forest.
> 
> Mike



fires in malibu started in those hills north of LA..which happens very often and is part of the natural cycle but given the extra dry conditions, strong winds and development ,..perfect recipe for fires 

The Camp Fire did start in a rural area but the development is encroaching more and more into those forested areas, especially the foothills...I have driven a lot through those areas ...lots of sprawl..same as in the Puget Sound (but we are much wetter) You have fires in the Sierras where there is no development (except for logging) that are happening with greater frequency because of terrible forest thinning practices that has been going on for a century as well as drier conditions...but what's happening around Chico , areas like Paradise...has more to do with urban/suburban development...you put more people in an area, more chance for a spark..just like the cause of the devastating fire over the summer near Shasta/Redding was started by a steel rim of a wheel causing sparks after the tire blew out (The Carr Fire)


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## Berthold (Nov 13, 2018)

What I read is the Woolsey fire began in a hilly terrain overgrown with dense Chaparral shrubbery north of Los Angeles. Because it hasn't rained in Southern California since May, the *man-high bushwork* had completely dried up, and the flames could spread explosively.

I my eyes it is a typical fatal forest mismanagement. Administration just did not learn.
Since the devastating fires in Yellowstone National Park in the Eighties, park fire departments have only extinguished fires when they threaten buildings or valuable natural monuments. This reduces large swaths of dead and undergrowth, and future wildfires find less food. In part, fire departments even put controlled fires in the national parks to burn off the undergrowth.

As I remember the Malibu area always was a very dry scenery.
About 40 years ago the people were not allowed to wash their Rolls Royce and to refill their pools due to dryness and water shortage.

Sorry but if more than 30 people were killed in an overcrowded extra dry forest area it is not a natural catastrophe. It is men made of course.


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## Linus_Cello (Nov 13, 2018)

I have no comment on this, but interestingly Axl Rose apparently does:

https://grist.org/article/axl-rose-...mail&utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=daily


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## NYEric (Nov 13, 2018)

Over-development in potentially unsafe, fire-prone, areas!


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## ehanes7612 (Nov 13, 2018)

Berthold said:


> Sorry but if more than 30 people were killed in an overcrowded extra dry forest area it is not a natural catastrophe. It is men made of course.



is someone saying that it is a natural catastrophe?


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## Berthold (Nov 13, 2018)

ehanes7612 said:


> is someone saying that it is a natural catastrophe?



Yes of course, a lot of people say the main reason is climate change with more and more dry periods.
Even fire assurances use this argument to raise their prizes.


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## KyushuCalanthe (Nov 13, 2018)

Welcome to the jungle!


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## cnycharles (Nov 13, 2018)

I am sad for those who have lost their lives and property. That said, if you build using match sticks, in the midst of other match sticks, then there is an obvious result. 

It is horrendous how people have been caught and burned by the wind blown fire.... but watch how quickly people will rebuild on the ashes of unfound burned people


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ehanes7612 (Nov 13, 2018)

Berthold said:


> Yes of course, a lot of people say the main reason is climate change with more and more dry periods.
> Even fire assurances use this argument to raise their prizes.




you just have to keep trying to wiggle that argument into a thread,.. I dont think you really care about anything other than continuing that conversation


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## troy (Nov 13, 2018)

Donald trump started the fires.


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## ehanes7612 (Nov 13, 2018)

troy said:


> Donald trump started the fires.



surprised he hasn't blamed it on the democrats or CNN


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## Heather (Nov 14, 2018)

Berthold, please stop posting topics to stir the pot and then asking me to delete things because you don’t like the way the thread is going. I don’t have time for this nonsense.

Also PSA, members can delete their own posts.


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## Ray (Nov 14, 2018)

Fire is a natural part of chaparral ecology, just as it is in southeastern US pine forests.

If folks build there, they should expect this.

That said, how about a bit of compassion, rather than blame-seeking?


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## xiphius (Nov 14, 2018)

ehanes7612 said:


> surprised he hasn't blamed it on the democrats or CNN



Lol! I'm still waiting on the twitter rant... :rollhappy:


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## xiphius (Nov 14, 2018)

Ray said:


> Fire is a natural part of chaparral ecology, just as it is in southeastern US pine forests.
> 
> If folks build there, they should expect this.
> 
> That said, how about a bit of compassion, rather than blame-seeking?



Well-put! I grew up in Florida and they would do quite regular controlled burns there. The ecology of the area depends on fire. There are actually a lot of plants from fire-prone areas that use fire to help reproduce (like the ubiquitous saw-palmettos of the southeast US).


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## Berthold (Nov 14, 2018)

Ray said:


> That said, how about a bit of compassion, rather than blame-seeking?



Yes, I agree. At a catastrophe with more than 50 killed people and a damage of much more than 2 Billion $ the question for cause should be allowed, especially if it is not natural origin as we all agree in.
But political blames are some kind of perverse. I fully agree in that point.


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## troy (Nov 14, 2018)

Many european nations run their power underground, that prevents fires, if u.s. pulls their heads out their ass, and stop with the billion dollar political slander, and use it to run power underground, or rebuild our infrastructure, these fires will continue, the camp fire started from faulty power lines


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## ehanes7612 (Nov 14, 2018)

https://www.sanpatricioelectric.org/content/overhead-vs-underground-power-lines

http://theconversation.com/should-the-us-put-power-lines-underground-83771


there are inherent risks to any type of placement of power lines ...PGE has a reputation for not servicing their lines properly...they could start with that


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## Berthold (Nov 16, 2018)

I think the accusation against Pacific Gas & Electric is silly. There is only a very small blame on that side.


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## ehanes7612 (Nov 17, 2018)

Berthold said:


> I think the accusation against Pacific Gas & Electric is silly. There is only a very small blame on that side.



Every fire starts with an ignition source. I am sure an investigation will determine the e degree of their culpability ... but I can say you have absolutely no credibility in determining this


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## Berthold (Nov 17, 2018)

ehanes7612 said:


> . but I can say you have absolutely no credibility in determining this



May be You are right but I was running a company on the field of electric power and gas transportation and distribution.
In Germany we have the safest power supply of all countries in the world, including voltage levels from 230 V to 400 kV alternating current .

I could explain a lot of details to You but it would not help. It is an advantage for understanding to have a master degree in electricity engineering or physics.
But do not hesitate to ask if You have any questions.


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## ehanes7612 (Nov 17, 2018)

Berthold said:


> In Germany we have the safest power supply of all countries in the world, including voltage levels from 230 V to 400 kV alternating current .




exactly...US grid and power lines are not as SAFE!!!


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## Ozpaph (Nov 17, 2018)

Many bush fires in Australia are deliberately lit by arsonists. Its very hard to prevent those.


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## Berthold (Nov 17, 2018)

Ozpaph said:


> Many bush fires in Australia are deliberately lit by arsonists. Its very hard to prevent those.



If the bush is not set in fire by natural reasons every year the administration or other arsonist have to do so.
That's the only way to keep the fire under control


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## Ozpaph (Nov 17, 2018)

Arsonists, not controlled burning.


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## Berthold (Nov 17, 2018)

Yes, but true nature always keeps fire areas under control with spontaneous random ignition.

The secret at this is to avoid to much flammable material.

Nobody can initiate a fire storm in a healthy fire forest except the US-Airforce in Hamburg or Dresden very long time ago.


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## ehanes7612 (Nov 17, 2018)

Berthold said:


> Nobody can initiate a fire storm in a healthy fire forest except the US-Airforce in Hamburg or Dresden very long time ago.



see, there it is..was wondering how long it would take


I agree that the largest culpability has to do with forest management along with encroaching development ...clearcutting is widely used in the NorthWest and this creates extremely dry zones with a great deal of fuel on the forest floor left over. I have been to dozens of clearcuts (living here in the Northwest) and it's always the same. You have a forest service (meaning the Rangers and certain applicable county sherrifs) up here doing everything they can to prevent fires but they can only do so much with regard to the power of the logging industry and encroaching development. So they try to prevent the second biggest issue...ignition points...cant do anything about lightning so have to hope someone isnt careless...given the increasing population in every area of the state encroaching on wilderness and clear cutting not abating ...I dont see much change ..it's only gonna get worse....especially if we continue on a trend of springtime drying out sooner here than normal after our usual wet winters that produce a lot of vegetation. The northwest US has seen a trend over the last several years of increasing fire activity and more intense fires, larger fires. Before 2015 I never noticed smoke in Seattle or Portland (lived here since 1991)...but we have had significant smoke in our skies each of the last three summers..the only benefit I can see is that it will help control the beetle infestation to some of the forests


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## Berthold (Nov 18, 2018)

ehanes7612 said:


> see, there it is..was wondering how long it would take


Sorry, a completely absurd emotional post.

I am very happy that the Americans, their allies and the Soviets have stopped and annihilated the terrible Nazi terror regime in Germany.
Of course, I also accept collateral damage which is inevitable if you want to protect the lives of your own soldiers as much as possible.


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## ehanes7612 (Nov 18, 2018)

Berthold said:


> Sorry, a completely absurd emotional post.
> 
> I am very happy that the Americans, their allies and the Soviets have stopped and annihilated the terrible Nazi terror regime in Germany.
> Of course, I also accept collateral damage which is inevitable if you want to protect the lives of your own soldiers as much as possible.



not emotional...just an observation..and one that any of us can predict because you always turn a thread into some issue you have obsessed about in the past on this forum


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## Berthold (Nov 18, 2018)

ehanes7612 said:


> .. you always turn a thread into some issue you have obsessed about in the past on this forum



Nonsense, what should it be?


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## ehanes7612 (Nov 18, 2018)

obsessed about what is strongly political in nature while you know that the political forum has been removed and for good reason...you like to cheat...some people would say you are a shifty person


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## Berthold (Nov 19, 2018)

ehanes7612 said:


> obsessed about that is strongly political in nature while you know that the political forum has been removed and for good reason..



Why do *You *post this foolish political statement in Post 19 and 20?

19:


troy said:


> Donald trump started the fires.



20:


ehanes7612 said:


> surprised he hasn't blamed it on the democrats or CNN


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## ehanes7612 (Nov 20, 2018)

Yes, 'foolish' as in nonsensical and silly..not attempting to push a political agenda by shifty backdoor tactics ..but interject some humor into a tense subject...levity.


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## Berthold (Nov 20, 2018)

ehanes7612 said:


> obsessed about what is strongly political in nature while you know that the political forum has been removed and for good reason...you like to cheat...some people would say you are a shifty person



It was smart of You to delete the main part of Your post because my answer would have been: Is this a forum for white democratic Americans only?


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## ehanes7612 (Nov 20, 2018)

No, the smart thing would be not to engage with your bullshit anymore. You make no sense whatsoever..goodbye, Berthold


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## Berthold (Nov 20, 2018)

ehanes7612 said:


> goodbye, Berthold



Thank You, You will find much time for Your master degree, in whatever field. Much luck to You.


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## Tom-DE (Nov 26, 2018)

troy said:


> Donald trump caused my grandmas bunions to flare up!!!!!!!!!!




now that is funny, boy! and I will give you thumbs up for that!:rollhappy:


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## ehanes7612 (Dec 30, 2018)

told you

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/30/us/california-fires-pge-charges/index.html


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## Berthold (Dec 31, 2018)

ehanes7612 said:


> told you
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/30/us/california-fires-pge-charges/index.html



Share holders of PG & E, don't panic please.

PG & E is an American company, not an Iranian or German company.

A smart independent American court won't judge its own American company after all.


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## ehanes7612 (Dec 31, 2018)

Berthold said:


> Share holders of PG & E, don't panic please.
> 
> PG & E is an American company, not an Iranian or German company.
> 
> A smart independent American court won't judge its own American company after all.



you mean, like Wells Fargo???


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## Berthold (Jan 1, 2019)

ehanes7612 said:


> you mean, like Wells Fargo???



These are peanuts compared to the BP problem in the Gulf of Mexico and the Volkswagen problem with the diesel engine.

Tesla never had problems with the court despite multiple deaths from faulty automatic vehicle control.


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## ehanes7612 (Jan 15, 2019)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/14/business/pge-bankruptcy-wildfires/index.html


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## Berthold (Jan 15, 2019)

Normally a utility company stops service in case of bankruptcy and switches off all gas and electricity supply.
So the residents and the court should be careful.


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## Ray (Jan 15, 2019)

Berthold said:


> Normally a utility company stops service in case of bankruptcy and switches off all gas and electricity supply.
> So the residents and the court should be careful.





Did you even read the article?

"PG&E, the state's largest utility, said Monday it will file for bankruptcy on January 29, after a 15-day waiting period required by California law. *It needs to use the bankruptcy process, which will allow it to shed some of its debt, to pay for damages and stay in business to provide gas and electric service to its customers.*"

Being that they are likely the only public utility in the area, they cannot legally end their service.


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## Berthold (Jan 15, 2019)

Ray I know about the situation but in case of bankruptcy everything is possible regardless if there is no legal way. 
Therefore residents should be careful.


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## ehanes7612 (Jan 15, 2019)

Berthold said:


> Normally a utility company stops service in case of bankruptcy and switches off all gas and electricity supply.
> So the residents and the court should be careful.




Really showing your IQ on that response, huh?

it's a chapter 11, which means restructuring..not liquidation and what Ray said


https://calmatters.org/articles/what-happens-if-pge-goes-bankrupt/


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## Berthold (Jan 15, 2019)

I see, business is not Your field.


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## ehanes7612 (Jan 15, 2019)

Berthold said:


> I see, business is not Your field.



no, but I know how to read an article and I know how to do some light research...and not just spew bullshit statements


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## Berthold (Jan 15, 2019)

Sorry, it makes no sense to discuss with you problems for creditors and clients when a company becomes insolvent regardless of quality of insolvency.

US law differs from German law but not so much.


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## ehanes7612 (Jan 15, 2019)

It goes back to me saying that this will come down hard on PGE and you dismissing their culpability in this...that's the point of me posting the articles...to show that you underestimated the seriousness of their involvement..which you just dismissed as an opinion of what should or should not be....oh wait, you're doing it again but now you are using a corporate bullying tactic ..but I really don't care about the particulars of bankruptcy ...just that the company faces some serious problems as a result of what is being considered as neglect.


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## Berthold (Jan 16, 2019)

The utility company has only a small blame because the lightning strike of a thunderstorm can have the same effect as the arc of a power cable. And that can happen all the time.
Therefore, it makes no sense for the community to destroy the utility by paying compensation.


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## NYEric (Jan 16, 2019)

All utilities should be underground.


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## ehanes7612 (Jan 16, 2019)

Berthold said:


> The utility company has only a small blame because the lightning strike of a thunderstorm can have the same effect as the arc of a power cable. And that can happen all the time.
> Therefore, it makes no sense for the community to destroy the utility by paying compensation.



and yet, it is more complicated than that .Not turning off power when the problem is known....and having a history of this. Not reporting fires when they have the information. Therefore, it makes perfect sense to hold them liable. Your simple minded hyperbolic rhetoric like 'destroy' and 'happen all the time' would not hold up in a court of law and with any reasonably intelligent person...maybe Trump though...you communicate like him.


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## Berthold (Jan 16, 2019)

NYEric said:


> All utilities should be underground.


Yes, but that is much more expensive, especially in mountain terrain. 
Customers have to pay for all.


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## Berthold (Jan 16, 2019)

ehanes7612 said:


> ..maybe Trump though...you communicate like him.



That's a shame, I am not born in the USA so I cannot be elected as President.


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## ehanes7612 (Jan 16, 2019)

Berthold said:


> That's a shame, I am not born in the USA so I cannot be elected as President.



we should all feel relieved


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## Berthold (Jan 16, 2019)

Berthold said:


> Yes, but that is much more expensive, especially in mountain terrain.
> Customers have to pay for all.



In addition, Eric, You can reduce Your military budget by 15% and invest the money into the utility structure each year. That will help quickly.
But You cannot avoid a fire like Malibu fire in the last year because it can be ignited all the time by thunderstorms.
So You have to think about something else regardless if Your utility company runs into bankruptcy or Chapter 11 only.


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## ehanes7612 (Jan 16, 2019)

Berthold said:


> In addition, Eric, You can reduce Your military budget by 15% and invest the money into the utility structure each year. That will help quickly.
> But You cannot avoid a fire like Malibu fire in the last year because it can be ignited all the time by thunderstorms.
> So You have to think about something else regardless if Your utility company runs into bankruptcy or Chapter 11 only.



most reasonably intelligent people in the US know this,..our priorities are fucked


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## Berthold (Jan 16, 2019)

ehanes7612 said:


> most reasonably intelligent people in the US know this,..our priorities are fucked



See, as Your President I would push through this point.


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## ehanes7612 (Jan 16, 2019)

Berthold said:


> See, as Your President I would push through this point.



then you would never be elected


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## Berthold (Jan 17, 2019)

ehanes7612 said:


> then you would never be elected



So You must live with bush fire, electricity and drinking water black out, flooding and so on. But no problem if You are lucky.


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## Berthold (Sep 13, 2020)

Rappel


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## Berthold (Sep 14, 2020)

Is the California government completely incapable of doing anything meaningful about California's annual bushfires?
I am wondering.


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## Ray (Sep 14, 2020)

The areas that are burning are chaparrals that are _supposed_ to burn in nature, keeping the underbrush cleaned out. Where we have gone wrong is letting folks develop those areas and not do controlled burns to keep it low.

Some of those places are wilderness and do naturally burn, but when “Happy Acres” development is built along side, encroaching on the wilderness...


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## Berthold (Sep 14, 2020)

Ray said:


> The areas that are burning are chaparrals that are _supposed_ to burn in nature, keeping the underbrush cleaned out. Where we have gone wrong is letting folks develop those areas and not do controlled burns to keep it low.


Yes, annual controlled burn down should be a good and easy way to keep it low


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## Ray (Sep 14, 2020)

Yeah, but "good and easy" doesn't fit well with "millions of acres".


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## Berthold (Sep 14, 2020)

I think 10% of Your military budget would be good enough to kill all fires in the democratic California.


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## Ozpaph (Sep 14, 2020)

Same in Australia. The problem arises when people choose to live in remote, bushfire prone areas.........................what do they expect????


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