# sanderianum culture



## Stone (Jun 6, 2014)

What do I have to do to get my sanderianum seedlings moving?? They are kept at btween 20 and 30 degerees C. High humidity, lights, in bark perlite and fed very little if anything. They are a good green but refuse to move!! What am I missing?? Month after month nothing! Just how slow are these things?


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## Ozpaph (Jun 6, 2014)

How big are they? What are the parents?
I have one about 20cm across and it seems to be moving along. I doubt my conditions are as good as yours as they are outside. Mine would be grown cooler, though (just moved it into an enclosed area with lights and night warmth).


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## Stone (Jun 7, 2014)

Ozpaph said:


> How big are they? What are the parents?
> I have one about 20cm across and it seems to be moving along. I doubt my conditions are as good as yours as they are outside. Mine would be grown cooler, though (just moved it into an enclosed area with lights and night warmth).



I guess they average between 5 and 7 cm across. One lot are Accound x Select (whatever that is), and the other from Sam Tsui -Mini x something or other. Roths growing like weeds compared to these. Even anitums are doing better...... I dream of 20cm!


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## Ozpaph (Jun 7, 2014)

I had a few small ones - gone to heaven. I wonder if they're slow when small?Was lucky to pick up the bigger one.


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## cnycharles (Jun 7, 2014)

Most culture online reads slightly shady but then grower in Canadian orchid club journal states that in cliffs it has no shade so very bright multi light. Aside, lots if humidity fairly warm clean water little feed and supposedly growing on limestone on cliffs ( wet but airy)


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## eggshells (Jun 7, 2014)

Stone said:


> I guess they average between 5 and 7 cm across. One lot are Accound x Select (whatever that is), and the other from Sam Tsui -Mini x something or other. Roths growing like weeds compared to these. Even anitums are doing better...... I dream of 20cm!



Mike, what you need is time! Be patient and they will grow. It doesn't help if you look at them everyday and measure.

Perhaps the best way is to start with a blooming size plant. They mature growths faster than the seedlings. Still not fast compared to other multiflorals but about 50-70% faster than starting from a seedling. The only deterrent is the price.


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## ehanes7612 (Jun 7, 2014)

depends on the cross..some are sooooooo slow..some are really fast


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## ALToronto (Jun 7, 2014)

My seedling is growing in just sphagnum, in a 5 cm pot. I've had it since Feb 2013, and it was 8 cm across when I got it. Since then, it has put out 5 leaves and is working on the sixth, and is now 23 cm across. It's on a south facing windowsill, probably getting more light than it should, the leaves are quite pale, but it's moving. We had a very chilly winter, with temps dropping to 15 degrees on the windowsill, but it didn't slow down. I managed to keep the humidity above 60% through the winter, and it's staying at 60-70% through the summer as well.

I'm feeding it with K-lite and PlantProd 25-10-10 (ammonia and urea N) on alternate days, RO water mixed with about 20% tap, and an occasional addition of epsom salt. Both ferts are kept to 10-20 ppm N.


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## Stone (Jun 7, 2014)

eggshells said:


> > Mike, what you need is time! Be patient and they will grow. It doesn't help if you look at them everyday and measure.
> >
> > Perhaps the best way is to start with a blooming size plant. They mature growths faster than the seedlings. Still not fast compared to other multiflorals but about 50-70% faster than starting from a seedling. The only deterrent is the price.
> 
> ...


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jun 7, 2014)

I had read to start them off shady, then to grow bright at blooming size. Mine grow slowly but steadily...speed demons compared to my roths.


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## Ozpaph (Jun 7, 2014)

Stone said:


> eggshells said:
> 
> 
> > Ha, I'm usually very patient but they don't seem to have moved since I took them out of the flask :rollhappy:
> ...


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## cnycharles (Jun 7, 2014)

Well, that's only the equivalent price of a used car, not a new one! 


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## AdamD (Jun 8, 2014)

I've read in nature they grow on east-facing cliff walls, giving them full sun for most of the morning, then full shade the rest of the day. In this way, windowsill culture for this plant might not be such a bad idea... If proper conditions could be maintained. If I remember right, there was a fellow from Sweden who posted a pic of his blooming here a few months back who successfully grew his on the windowsill.


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## orcoholic (Jun 8, 2014)

Mine show a growth spurt after each repotting and then seem to slow down. So, I repot them a few times a year. Also, they are in very small pots and shady during warmest months. During hot summers they are actually under benches. Many have double growths now, but have never bloomed any----yet.


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## Stone (Jun 8, 2014)

I've talked to people who have visited the habitat. They were in full sun for a considerable amount of time every day.
No doubt that the very high humidity tempered the effect of the sun.
Once you have a multi growth mature plant, culture would probably be a lot simpler.
I just want to know how to get them to maturity without losing too many. Not that I've killed many but their growth is glacial!!


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## annab (Jun 10, 2014)

mine doing very well without specific attention,I think is most important to have a good seedling ,maybe this aspect is the first thing we must be careful .
Anna


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## gonewild (Jun 10, 2014)

Maybe correct this issue... "and fed very little if anything."


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## Stone (Jun 10, 2014)

gonewild said:


> Maybe correct this issue... "and fed very little if anything."



First rule in horticulture. Don't feed a plant that's not growing! (unless you want to make it worse)


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## Stone (Jun 10, 2014)

annab said:


> QUOTE]I think is most important to have a good seedling



Yes! ....but not so easy.


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## paphioboy (Jun 11, 2014)

Stone said:


> First rule in horticulture. Don't feed a plant that's not growing! (unless you want to make it worse)



Except if the reason its not growing is because there is no food! I would try placing a few slow-release prills and see how they go. Usually paphs respond quite well to these, in my conditions anyway.


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## Stone (Jun 11, 2014)

paphioboy said:


> > Except if the reason its not growing is because there is no food!
> 
> 
> 
> True but that's almost never the reason.


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## gonewild (Jun 11, 2014)

Stone said:


> First rule in horticulture. Don't feed a plant that's not growing! (unless you want to make it worse)



You are so wrong. 

Now it is time for you to do what you demand from others.... prove this preposterous statement by providing published scientific proof.


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## gonewild (Jun 11, 2014)

Stone said:


> paphioboy said:
> 
> 
> > True but that's almost never the reason.
> ...


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## Stone (Jun 14, 2014)

What happend to all the replies on this thread
Anyway someone asked about kelp and yes I do use it every 2 weeks. It works very well on most things and I notice new roots about 10 days after I use it (kelpak), at least I think I do. A freind of mine swears by a product sold here called ''Plant Starter'' which contains IAA and NAA in small amounts. I might try that too!


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## Cheyenne (Jun 14, 2014)

I think after the conversation with Lance started everyone said "I'm out'.


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## gonewild (Jun 14, 2014)

Cheyenne said:


> I think after the conversation with Lance started everyone said "I'm out'.



Gee thanks.


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## emydura (Jun 14, 2014)

Stone said:


> What happend to all the replies on this thread
> oo!



See here - 

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=487275#post487275


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## Stone (Jun 14, 2014)

emydura said:


> See here -
> 
> http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=487275#post487275



That clears it up. Thanks David.


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## Leo Schordje (Jun 16, 2014)

Honestly, when I have tried to treat sanderianum different than my other paph seedlings I would run into disasters. I have bloomed many (well more than 6 different clones) of sanderianum, from small seedlings. It takes time. Most of my first bloomers were at least 6 ot 7 years old. Some still have not bloomed and are coming up on 12 years old. Part of the problem is inconsistiency in my care, but overall they are not at all hard to grow. They seem to grow well during my warmer months, (here my warm is usually under 90F, Chicago area is not hot, like Texas).The sanderianum seem to do better in more shady positions, especially when small. I have bloomed some under 4 tube fixtures of old fashioned T12 shop lights with ordinary cool white bulbs. So I would say just treat them like a shade loving rothschildianum or stonei, and don't chill them. Mine sit still doing nothing when temps drop below 70 during the day. Other than that, everybody gets fertilizer every time I water, usually about 70 ppm as N of K-Lite, which is about 1/4 teaspoon per gallon. That's it, it works for me. If my growing area stayed warmer in winter I suspect I would be blooming them quicker, my slow results are likely do to the fact that 4 or more months out of the year my growing area is not as warm as sanderianum would like. Hope this helps. Yes, I read all the habitat stuff, and figure that growing in a flower pot is quite different than the wild, so I gave up trying to duplicate the wild. What works for related species (for example Paph stonei) will work for sanderianum. The only quirk they have is more tolerance for shade than most multiflorals.


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## Stone (Jun 16, 2014)

Thanks Leo. So what are your temeratures during the 4 coldest months? Did you find much difference between the 6 clones you bloomed- growth wize?


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## Paphman910 (Jun 17, 2014)

I find sanderianum grow real slow but that could be because my plant is a runt to begin with. I find them to be easy grower that do well with Phal bellina conditions.

Water quality is really important for them to do well!


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## orchideya (Jun 17, 2014)

So glad I found this thread. My sanderianum deflasklings are so slow that hangianums deflasked in March already almost catching up to them. I understand now that it might has to do with temps only around 20C in the large tank. It is probably good for hangs but not so much for sandies.
I will move sanderianums to smaller tank with 25C where my phals are and make sure to keep them in the shade.
Hopefully it will speed up their growth.


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## annab (Jun 18, 2014)

mine after one year in my hands,so far grow health she has lost 1 leave at the base of the fan and put out 2 ,the only disappoint is that she has the color of the leafs a bit yellow,I noticed this only recently and I don't know if this is normal.




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bye,Anna


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## Stone (Jun 18, 2014)

annab said:


> mine after one year in my hands,so far grow health she has lost 1 leave at the base of the fan and put out 2 ,the only disappoint is that she has the color of the leafs a bit yellow,I noticed this only recently and I don't know if this is normal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ciao Anna,

That is a beautiful plant!.....but I agree the leaves look a bit yellow compared to the habitat plants were they are really dark green. Could be too much light? or maybe the fertilizer is not balanced for this plant? But still very nice. I wish it was mine. :drool:
I Just had a close up look. Because the yellowing is more in the center of the plant, I think it's not light but nutrient problems.
Do you use limestone? If the pH is too high in the mix it may not get enough iron.


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## Justin (Jun 18, 2014)

I just.looked at my sands and they all have a similar look with lighter color in the center. Maybe increase fert very slightly but otherwise it looks healthy.


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## SlipperKing (Jun 18, 2014)

Looking at Anna's mix, she may have some limestone component in the root zone. If she is using a K-lite fertilizer, increasing the concentration could make things worst.


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## annab (Jun 18, 2014)

Stone said:


> > Do you use limestone? If the pH is too high in the mix it may not get enough iron.


yes MIke as you can see the mix is full of marble and piece of coral.
bye,Anna


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## Stone (Jun 18, 2014)

annab said:


> yes MIke as you can see the mix is full of marble and piece of coral.
> bye,Anna



Then this is probably the problem. The trace metals are becoming locked. More fertilizer will not help and will probably make it worse.

This is only my opinion, but I would replace most, if not all, of the marble with similar sized bark without removing the plant if possible.

You should see improvement in the colour quickly.


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## naoki (Jun 19, 2014)

Interference due to lime (Ca) seems to be well documented (here is a simple explanation). Mike, are there studies of how applicable this is for epiphytes (and/or serpentine plants)? Some aspects of nutrients dynamics seem different in the coarse media, so I was wondering the generality of the soil based research (no, I'm not questioning, I'm just curious to learn new things).


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## Stone (Jun 19, 2014)

naoki said:


> Interference due to lime (Ca) seems to be well documented (here is a simple explanation). Mike, are there studies of how applicable this is for epiphytes (and/or serpentine plants)? Some aspects of nutrients dynamics seem different in the coarse media, so I was wondering the generality of the soil based research (no, I'm not questioning, I'm just curious to learn new things).



Well if you look at the pH chart I posted a while back (can't find it), it shows that at pH 6.5 (in organic potting mixes not mineral soils which can still have Fe available at 8.5) the availability of Fe becomes vanishingly low. Mn, Cu, an Zn is also quite low. How this relates to course as opposed to fine media, I don't know.

However when we consider that there is a high probability that using marble chips without much in the way of buffering, there is a high probability the media surrounding the roots of Anna's plant is alkaline. Possibly as high as pH 8?

If this is the case it is also possible that the problem could take months to manifest itself as this plant is so slow growing. (in which case a speedy reversal may not be so easy to achieve)

Some might not even see it as a problem but personally I would try to fix it.
It's how we become better growers no?

One way around it could be to feed low rates every watering together with foliar feeding but it's really not the long term solution.

Of course all this assuming its not light causing the yellowing and the photo colour is true!


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## naoki (Jun 19, 2014)

I think that it was Ray who mentioned that low CEC of orchid media could change the pH chart, but I haven't investigated deeper into this. But I agree, reducing the pH seems to be a good thing to try.

My 2 P. sanderianum seedlings (and other warm multi-) grow fairly slow, too. It sounds like that the lower temp is the problem of mine. They seem to grow better in the summer when I can get 30/21C (86/70F).


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