# Paphs. not opening fully . . .



## NeoNJ (Jun 8, 2011)

I have a number of Paphs in spike/bud....and what I'm noticing is that the flowers are not opening fully ....the Dorsal is NOT fully erect. Anyone know what is causing this .... ? I had read I think that this may be related to low humidity levels .... but I'm not sure ....


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## NYEric (Jun 8, 2011)

No photo, no helpee!


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## Marc (Jun 8, 2011)

How long are they open, I've noticed that after I would consider a flower to be open it straightens out quite a bit in the first few weeks.

This also has to do with the ovary growing a bit longer while the flower is allready open.


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## NeoNJ (Jun 8, 2011)

NYEric said:


> No photo, no helpee!



Thanks for your nasty, arrogant comment !!!


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## NYEric (Jun 8, 2011)

I did not mean to be nasty or arrogant. It is easier to make an educated guess at the solution if you send a photo. the answar might be that the plants need to be staked, or as suggested above the blooms may have just opened and will progress, or that there is insufficient humidity. Sorry you found exception with my response.


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## Ernie (Jun 8, 2011)

Don't mind NYEric, he's just being silly. 

The cells in flowers rely on hydraulics to open the flower. Water helps cells expand to turgor. Not enough water (either humidity or via the roots), and the flowers may not open fully. Like we've said in the humidity thread, humidity might not a big deal as long as you have healthy roots and are watering properly. 

The flowers not opening fully could be a symptom that something's not quite right. Either your humidity is too low AND/OR you have poor roots AND/OR you are not watering properly (frequency, amount, etc). 

It could also be the nature of specific hybrids/clones/breeding trends in question. 

More info might be helpful (potting mix, water source/type, watering frequency, pot type (plastic, clay), fertilizing scheme, etc). As would a picture of the flowers in question and maybe a picture of your plants' roots. The more we know, the more we can help.


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## likespaphs (Jun 8, 2011)

NeoNJ said:


> Thanks for your nasty, arrogant comment !!!




d'oh!
you don't know Eric, do you?
one of the problems with this internet thing is that one can't hear tone....:viking:


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## jjkOC (Jun 8, 2011)

Maybe not enough humidity in the air around the bud? I noticed that when I started using a cool mist humidifier that the flowers seemed to extend petals and "open" more fully. Hope this helps!


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## NeoNJ (Jun 8, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Don't mind NYEric, he's just being silly.
> 
> The cells in flowers rely on hydraulics to open the flower. Water helps cells expand to turgor. Not enough water (either humidity or via the roots), and the flowers may not open fully. Like we've said in the humidity thread, humidity might not a big deal as long as you have healthy roots and are watering properly.
> 
> ...



Ok, well perhaps I'm being a bit prematue, since the 2 Paphs in question just opened a day ago, and like someone said, it may indeed take a week for the Dorsal to fully become upright.......

The first orchid is a Paph. venustum, and the second is a dark vini-colored maudiae type Paph. 

I haven't grown Paphs in a few years and don't recall this happening ......


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## NeoNJ (Jun 8, 2011)

*re: Paphs not opening fully ....*



jjkOC said:


> Maybe not enough humidity in the air around the bud? I noticed that when I started using a cool mist humidifier that the flowers seemed to extend petals and "open" more fully. Hope this helps!



Hmmmmmm.....that could be, because these 2 Paphs in quesion are not near a Cool-mist Humidifier ......

I would love to know what type of Cool-Mist humidifer you use --- I have 2 and neither seem to really do to much to increase the Humidity *(I have one of two of my three windowsills where I grow my Orchids)*


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## NeoNJ (Jun 8, 2011)

likespaphs said:


> d'oh!
> you don't know Eric, do you?
> one of the problems with this internet thing is that one can't hear tone....:viking:



Yeah. Ok, Well thats why its not a good idea to make comments like that in the first place on forums like this !

D'oh!


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## paphreek (Jun 8, 2011)

Just hang in there and listen to Ernie's advice. He has experience growing great plants indoors. With experience, you can successfully grow and flower Paphs in the home without high humidity. Every AOS flower quality award my flowers have received so far came from Paphs grown in the house *WITHOUT ANY ATTEMPT TO ADD EXTRA HUMIDITY.*

Grow the roots well and the plant and flowers will take care of themselves. With your concern for detail I have no doubt you can be successful growing Paphs in your environment.


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## goldenrose (Jun 8, 2011)

Welcome NeoNJ, glad you joined us!
You can use the search feature on the forum, just put in cool mist humidifiers & you'll get about 6 different threads. This was our most recent discussion, I believe -
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18808&highlight=cool+mist+humidifiers.

PS. Eric did apologize. He's a character, give it a chance, he grows on most of us! Your right, that's a problem with any forum, you don't know the person & we need to think a bit before typing. We tease each other quite a bit, don't give up on us, there's ALOT of value information & experience that can be had here!


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## jjkOC (Jun 8, 2011)

Hi NeoNJ, I think Goldenrose's suggestion of checking out various threads on humidifiers is a very good one. 

For me, I just bought an inexpensive one from Target for $30 (Safety 1st Ultrasonic 360 Degree). 

I think the extra humidity helps my plants because I live a little inland in southern California, where the air can get really dry. I grow on my windowsills too, and most of my Paphs are doing well with just humidity trays and misting the top of the medium every morning.

For the humidifier, I use distilled/RO water so that I don't get any crusty mineral deposits in the device or on my plants. 

Good luck and hope all goes well with your plants 




NeoNJ said:


> Hmmmmmm.....that could be, because these 2 Paphs in quesion are not near a Cool-mist Humidifier ......
> 
> I would love to know what type of Cool-Mist humidifer you use --- I have 2 and neither seem to really do to much to increase the Humidity *(I have one of two of my three windowsills where I grow my Orchids)*


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## NeoNJ (Jun 8, 2011)

Thanks everyone for your great advice ..... I guess I do get a bid "panicky" when it comes to Humidity levels. I have great natural light levels, plus I have supplemental lighting (mainly because I grow Angraecum and Aerangis) but my window exposures are Southeast and Southwest.....

I just am not seeing a big difference in Humidity levels with using Cool-Mist Humidifers ----->>> except Overnight! In the morning, the Humidity levels are 60-65%. During the day, I can barely get them to 50%. So I have resorted to "misting", which I'm not big on .....

I use DISTILLED water exclusively for all of my Orchids, and in the Humdifiers.


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## Ernie (Jun 8, 2011)

Humidity almost always rises at night. Some mumbo jumbo about dew points or absolute/relative humidity or something. Ask Tom Skilling on WGN- he'll over-explain it for you. 

You're wise using "good water" in the humidifiers. The manual says you can use tap water because they want you to wreck the unit and buy a new one.  

Your issue is that your volume of air you're trying to humidify is too large. Just give in and give your den or spare bedroom to the orchids. Take out all the furniture, and go NUTS. Garages and basements work too! 

You also need to get lots more plants and group them together to help localize some of the humidity- seriously! They "breath out" moisture through their leaves (transpiration). Sorta like having a bunch of people in an elevator. 

You should see NYEric's collection (he has a crazy thread here). No one knows where he sleeps, sits, cooks, or eats because every surface of his apartment is COVERED with plants! Resistance is futile! 

Anyway, keep it up. I think you know more than you're giving yourself credit for.


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## Rick (Jun 8, 2011)

The ability of a humidifier is based on the volume of air you are trying to humidify, and how high your are trying to get it.

At work we have test rooms that are about 10X10 with a drop ceiling at 8ft. (about 800 cuft). The drop ceiling is pretty leaky as is the gap under the door.

The testing we do has trays of little cups full of water that are supposed to have identical temperature in all cups and all tests (+/1 1degree C). With a humidity of less than 50% there is as much as a 3-5 degree C difference between sealed (with tight fitting lids) and open cups. This differential is mostly gone at 70% humidity.

We started with one of those $30 drugstore units because it said it could handle a 144 square foot room (but lucky to get up to 50% in the winter). 
We ended up with 4 of these units per test room, which we were constantly filling and changing wicks. Eventually we went to the consul type units on wheels. Much more manageable and get the rooms to the requisite 70%. I think those big units run up to $200.

You can see by David's post from Australia that moving away from the window sill, and using a big sealed tank, he was pretty cheaply able to get humidity and ease of maintenance.

I know of another member that enclosed a bakers rack with plastic sheets, add lights to the shelves, and got away with one of those drugstore units just fine.


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## NeoNJ (Jun 9, 2011)

*Re: Humidity . . .*



Ernie said:


> Humidity almost always rises at night. Some mumbo jumbo about dew points or absolute/relative humidity or something. Ask Tom Skilling on WGN- he'll over-explain it for you.
> 
> You're wise using "good water" in the humidifiers. The manual says you can use tap water because they want you to wreck the unit and buy a new one.
> 
> ...



Hey Ernie:

Well all of my orchids are grown on 3 bedroom Windowsills - which are quite large - One of the windowsills has supplemental lighting (3 CFL fixtures dangling over the plants) the other 2 windowsills have natural light (SW exposure). It took awhile, but a few years ago I managed to get a Paph. Julius and a Paph Berenice to bloom ......'patience' is the key. 

Wish I did have an "Orchid Room"..LOL....but there isn't a spare room in this apartment/condo. So you make do with what you have and hope you can BLOOM an orchid. They will all Grow here, but I want to Bloom them !

I can't possibly give them the High Humidity levels they are used to in the wild. Most of my Paphs are species .....I have only a scattering of Hybrids.


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## NeoNJ (Jun 9, 2011)

*RE: Humidity....*



Rick said:


> The ability of a humidifier is based on the volume of air you are trying to humidify, and how high your are trying to get it.
> 
> At work we have test rooms that are about 10X10 with a drop ceiling at 8ft. (about 800 cuft). The drop ceiling is pretty leaky as is the gap under the door.
> 
> ...



Hey Rick:

Well, that bakers rack with the plastic sheeting is similar to my one windowsill which is covered with plastic and a drape (which is taped to each side of the wall to enclose the windowsill) - On that windowsill is a cool-mist humidifer + a oscillating fan. Overnight I get 65% Humidity.


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## likespaphs (Jun 9, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Humidity almost always rises at night. Some mumbo jumbo about dew points or absolute/relative humidity or something....




i thought it was because temps usually fall at night and air can hold less water the colder it gets and whatnot
then again, i ain't got no real idea


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## Rick (Jun 9, 2011)

We measure relative humidity and not total moisture in air.

Yes colder air holds less moisture than warmer, but if you only put a set amount of water into the system, % saturation is easier to reach at cooler temps than warmer.

In leaky boxes, with hotter air, you have to put more water in to reach the same level of saturation, but it's leaving your GH/box at the same time, requiriing even more water.


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## SlipperFan (Jun 9, 2011)

The only thing I have to add, besides Welcome to Slippertalk! -- is to echo Eric's request to show a picture. Even after reading all the posts here, I'm not sure whether what you are seeing is normal, or a problem. A good picture would help a great deal. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.


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## NeoNJ (Jun 10, 2011)

*My Paphs not opening fully .....*

Well, as of today --- the Paph. in question still has not opened fully, and the Dorsal sepal is still not extended upright, and its been 3-4 days....

So I will move the plant tonite to the enclosed windowsill with the humidifier, and try and take a PIC of it tomorrow and post it here....
so you can see the flower ..... 

Thanks again.


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## SlipperFan (Jun 10, 2011)

Great! Thanks, NeoNJ. Looking forward...


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## Ernie (Jun 11, 2011)

NeoNJ said:


> and take a PIC of it tomorrow and post it here....
> so you can see the flower .....



Plant pic might be helpful too.


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## NeoNJ (Jun 11, 2011)

*re: Paphs not opening fully ....*

HELP ! I'm trying to post Photo's of the Paph in question and can't figure out
how to do it....

Nothing is working. is there some sort of tutorial available on how to Upload Photos ??

Thanks.

PATRICK
(NeoNJ)


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## likespaphs (Jun 11, 2011)

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=177&

where are you hosting photos?


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## NeoNJ (Jun 14, 2011)

jjkOC said:


> Hi NeoNJ, I think Goldenrose's suggestion of checking out various threads on humidifiers is a very good one.
> 
> For me, I just bought an inexpensive one from Target for $30 (Safety 1st Ultrasonic 360 Degree).
> 
> ...



I took your recommendation and purchased the 'Safety 1st Ultrasonic 360 Degree Humidifer'. WOW! WHAT a difference! This humidifer pushed the Humidity level to 99% ----- it certainly is alot better than the Cool-Mist humidifiers I had been using. Thanks for the recommendation. It has done wonders in increasing the humidity levels ..


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## jjkOC (Jun 19, 2011)

Glad to hear that it helped! Hopefully you'll see improvement with your future blooms! 



NeoNJ said:


> I took your recommendation and purchased the 'Safety 1st Ultrasonic 360 Degree Humidifer'. WOW! WHAT a difference! This humidifer pushed the Humidity level to 99% ----- it certainly is alot better than the Cool-Mist humidifiers I had been using. Thanks for the recommendation. It has done wonders in increasing the humidity levels ..


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## NeoNJ (Jul 15, 2011)

jjkOC said:


> Glad to hear that it helped! Hopefully you'll see improvement with your future blooms!



Well, the problem continues. I have a total of 5 Paphs in flower - and all of them have the same problem ---- the Dorsal has not opened fully on any of them. Even with the new humidifier.

I'm really becoming very concerned (ok, upset) over this, coz I think to see a Paph in bloom where the Dorsal is drooped over and you cant really appreciate the flower is a real Bummer !


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## jjkOC (Jul 15, 2011)

That is a bummer... can I ask what kind of Paphs they are? 

Were you able to post the photo via hosting site? I load all my photos on Picasa and then copy the image address (by right clicking on the image to open options and select "copy image address"). You can imbed the photo into the thread using the notation:






Where "url" refers to the copied image address. When you copy the address, it usually starts with "https:". I usually delete the "s" from the "https". 

Your photo will display automatically if you have the proper notation. Good luck!


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## Ernie (Jul 15, 2011)

Are they Maudiae-type hybrids? What are the crosses? Got pix? Sometimes you just get hoody dorsals, not always your fault.


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## SlipperFan (Jul 15, 2011)

Pictures would certainly help. Many Paphs' dorsals don't stand upright. Names would help, also.


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## NeoNJ (Jul 16, 2011)

Ernie said:


> Are they Maudiae-type hybrids? What are the crosses? Got pix? Sometimes you just get hoody dorsals, not always your fault.



Hmmmm. Really? I've never really seen Paphs with drooping hoody Dorsals. Didn't realize that could happen...

In any event, the Paphs that currently have drooping Dorsals are:

- Paph. sukhakulii
- Paph. impulse x Ruby Leopard x Hsinying Glory
- Paph. Lady Macbeth
- Paph Calsow (Alma Gavaert 'Hager' x Onynx 'Maybrook'.

I guess I find these unattractive when their Dorsal is not up and erect.


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## Ernie (Jul 16, 2011)

Droopy dorsals certainly aren't desirable in most cases. The first on your list, sukhakulii, should have a very nice, upright dorsal though, so it could be something cultural. I'd guess the Impulse cross would be the most likely to not fully flatten a dorsal, but the suk, Lady Macbeth, and Calsow can be nice and perky.


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## SlipperFan (Jul 16, 2011)

In nature, what is the function of the dorsal sepal? Is it not to shield the pouch from getting rained into? If it's straight and vertical, can it do that?

I still say pictures would be very helpful, to know exactly what you are talking about.


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## atlantis (Oct 25, 2011)

Hello *NeoNJ*:

The problem you're talking about seems to be more frequent in vini-color Maudiae than in other plants.

I had the same problem with mine and I´ve heard and read more cases of people having a not-fully-open-dorsal in their vini-color Maudiae.

If it happens in all your flowers, you have probably an environmental problem, BUT in the case of vini-color Maudiae, the quality of the plants that were used to obtain the cross could be one of the reasons for this to happen.






As you see, I had troubles with the whole flower (dorsal, petals...). I hope better results for the next flowering. If it happens again in the future, I´ll eat this plant in a delicious salad.

greetings!

_Alberto_

P.D. If you have any trouble understanding what I´ve written, please tell me and I will try again with other words.


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## NeoNJ (Oct 25, 2011)

SlipperFan said:


> In nature, what is the function of the dorsal sepal? Is it not to shield the pouch from getting rained into? If it's straight and vertical, can it do that?
> 
> I still say pictures would be very helpful, to know exactly what you are talking about.



LOL, you are to funny. I don't think it is to difficult to "visualize" a Slipper orchid with a limp dorsal. I'm just trying to figure out why this happens,
as I (for one) find it a very unattractive trait in Slipper orchids, and I have had a few this past Spring that did it, and it ruined the entire look of the plant, so I thought it might have something to do with "Culture" or lack thereof, and if it is something I can fix, control, or correct so it doesn't happen again.

All of the Paphs that I have seen on display at Shows have had "vertical, straight, upright" dorsals.


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## SlipperFan (Oct 25, 2011)

NeoNJ said:


> LOL, you are to funny. I don't think it is to difficult to "visualize" a Slipper orchid with a limp dorsal. I'm just trying to figure out why this happens,
> as I (for one) find it a very unattractive trait in Slipper orchids, and I have had a few this past Spring that did it, and it ruined the entire look of the plant, so I thought it might have something to do with "Culture" or lack thereof, and if it is something I can fix, control, or correct so it doesn't happen again.
> 
> All of the Paphs that I have seen on display at Shows have had "vertical, straight, upright" dorsals.


I wasn't really trying to be funny. Perhaps it is a language issue: To me, "limp" is not the same thing as "droopy" or "hoody" or "not fully opened."


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## cnycharles (Oct 26, 2011)

it's much easier for you to take a picture and for us to look at it and compare in our minds, what has happened for this plant to end up looking like that; than for you to talk and talk and talk and have every different person have a different image in their head of what they think you are trying to explain, especially if someone doesn't have english as their first language. 

'a picture is worth a thousand words'... really is true! and yes it's a pain for people to figure out the first time how to post pictures, but then once the bullet has been bitten, it's done and becomes second nature!  a plant will have different 'looks', and different forms of 'limp' or 'non-upright' dorsals; the very good paph growers here can look at a plant or group of plants, and pretty much know right away what the cause likely is (from their experience) and relate to you what needs to be done


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