# Cypripedium subtropicum



## Hakone (May 15, 2012)

grown from seed (5 years ago ) in Dalat , photo taken from friend in Dalat ( South Viet Nam )


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## Berthold (May 15, 2012)

Hakone said:


> grown from seed (5 years ago ) in Dalat ,...



I don't believe that, it's digged out.


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## Hakone (May 15, 2012)

congratulations, you are a wise man . If you fly over there you can go for yourself.


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## KyushuCalanthe (May 15, 2012)

Neat species that I think one day will be reclassified into its own genus.

As for seed growing them, they seem quite easy to germinate from even mature pods. As for growing them on to flowering size, I've heard no reports yet. So, it is possible this one is seed grown. Currently there are a number of folks with plants in flask or just out of flask. I'm sure we won't be hearing much about them for some time though regardless of their fate.


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## Berthold (May 15, 2012)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> Neat species that I think one day will be reclassified into its own genus.
> .
> .
> .
> So, it is possible this one is seed grown.



it is closely related to Cypripedium wardii.

But I don't think it is possible to bring it to flower within 5 years.


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## KyushuCalanthe (May 15, 2012)

Berthold said:


> it is closely related to Cypripedium wardii.



I know that is the current thinking, but I suspect the reality is quite different.



> But I don't think it is possible to bring it to flower within 5 years.



Maybe, but not tested to my knowledge (present plant excluded). It will be interesting to see what happens with all the seedlings coming along now. I'd say there's a fair chance that most won't even survive, let alone bloom, but who knows for sure? I hope they make it!


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## W. Beetus (May 15, 2012)

Very interesting bloom!


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## Berthold (May 16, 2012)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> I know that is the current thinking, but I suspect the reality is quite different.



But the construction of flower elements are very similar. You can confirm it when You hold both flowers in Your hand.


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## kentuckiense (May 16, 2012)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> I know that is the current thinking, but I suspect the reality is quite different.



Hey Tom. I was pretty skeptical too, but a recent phylogenetic analysis of the genus has C. wardii and C. subtropicum clading together: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1055790311002739

The usual caveats apply, of course.


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## KyushuCalanthe (May 16, 2012)

Hey folks, didn't mean to cause trouble, it is just a matter of opinion, and you know about opinions...:rollhappy:

My judgement is not based on cladistic studies or chasing allozymes - it is more from an intuitive level and from talking about it to other folks "in the know". This plant is an odd one, at once primitive in design and yet with lots of unique features all to its own. The Mexican/Guatemalan species are like that too - off in their own little world, but among Cyps, C. subtropicum is truly odd. 

I hope some can be propagated before the last is stripped out of the wild. It would be even better if a few could be left alone unharassed, but with Burma seeming to want to open up relations with China that region is going to be under the gun like never before.


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## PaphMadMan (May 16, 2012)

kentuckiense said:


> Hey Tom. I was pretty skeptical too, but a recent phylogenetic analysis of the genus has C. wardii and C. subtropicum clading together: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1055790311002739
> 
> The usual caveats apply, of course.



It appears one would have to make up an 'organization' to even be allowed to register to buy the article. <sigh>


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## Roth (May 16, 2012)

KyushuCalanthe said:


> Hey folks, didn't mean to cause trouble, it is just a matter of opinion, and you know about opinions...:rollhappy:
> 
> My judgement is not based on cladistic studies or chasing allozymes - it is more from an intuitive level and from talking about it to other folks "in the know". This plant is an odd one, at once primitive in design and yet with lots of unique features all to its own. The Mexican/Guatemalan species are like that too - off in their own little world, but among Cyps, C. subtropicum is truly odd.
> 
> I hope some can be propagated before the last is stripped out of the wild. It would be even better if a few could be left alone unharassed, but with Burma seeming to want to open up relations with China that region is going to be under the gun like never before.



Dont' worry it comes only from Vietnam...


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## quietaustralian (May 17, 2012)

Roth said:


> Dont' worry it comes only from Vietnam...



Huh? Whats the story?

Mick


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## Roth (May 17, 2012)

quietaustralian said:


> Huh? Whats the story?
> 
> Mick



There is only one nursery who can get cypripedium subtropicum from the wild, and they have the absolute monopoly. I know the owner, and he got his plants from the border of China and Vietnam, but entering Vietnam mountains, it is a hard road, and indeed we cannot access that part of the mountains from Vietnam, except by walking a couple days, it is one of the no man's land close to Laos Vietnam and China junction.


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## quietaustralian (May 17, 2012)

A couple of days ago, I was looking for some Paph pictures on the Swiss Orchid Foundation website and came across some pics of C. subtropicum, it was claimed that these in situ pics were taken at Malipo, Yunnan. *If that is true*, it's reasonable to expect that they may be found in northern Hà Giang province, VN as Malipo is only 15kms directly west of the border and the terrain and climate are the same.

http://orchid.unibas.ch/phpMyHerbarium/190029/1/Cypripedium/subtropicum//specimen.php

http://orchid.unibas.ch/phpMyHerbarium/118590/1/Cypripedium/subtropicum//specimen.php

Mick


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## Roth (May 17, 2012)

quietaustralian said:


> A couple of days ago, I was looking for some Paph pictures on the Swiss Orchid Foundation website and came across some pics of C. subtropicum, it was claimed that these in situ pics were taken at Malipo, Yunnan. *If that is true*, it's reasonable to expect that they may be found in northern Hà Giang province, VN as Malipo is only 15kms directly west of the border and the terrain and climate are the same.
> 
> http://orchid.unibas.ch/phpMyHerbarium/190029/1/Cypripedium/subtropicum//specimen.php
> 
> ...



That nursery in Kunming has those photos, and many more, including collectors taking up plants... and they definitely do not come from the Malipo area... another case of 'kindly borrowed photos'. As an aside, that nursery there claims the plants to come from Malipo, to avoid any question, or collectors to locate more plants and compete. A mature plants sells now for a couple hundreds USD in China.


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## quietaustralian (May 17, 2012)

Roth said:


> That nursery in Kunming has those photos, and many more, including collectors taking up plants... and they definitely do not come from the Malipo area... another case of 'kindly borrowed photos'. As an aside, that nursery there claims the plants to come from Malipo, to avoid any question, or collectors to locate more plants and compete. A mature plants sells now for a couple hundreds USD in China.



So, the photo credited to Holger is a fraud?

Mick


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## Roth (May 17, 2012)

quietaustralian said:


> So, the photo credited to Holger is a fraud?
> 
> Mick



Let's say to make the things peaceful, that if Holger saw it in the wild, he has been incredibly lucky to see them about 300 km east from their real location, and second if a westerner had seen them, it would be weird that only a Chinese has the monopoly ( that very same Chinese who sold some worldwide famous pictures of Paphiopedilum tigrinum in the wild 'from China', where in fact those photos were taken in Burma... and he is indeed the largest orchid trader in the area.)... and that Holger had to buy from him his plants of subtropicum at premium price. :evil: but of course nothing is impossible to men of good will, like finding hangianum in China... or gigantifolium maybe one day...


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## kentuckiense (May 17, 2012)

What about the plants described as singchii and appendiculatum? Same population or different?


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## Roth (May 17, 2012)

To reply, yes Holger did not take that photo, but the collector, see here :

http://www.cypripedium.de/forum/messages/2838.html

That's the commercial offer from the Kunming man I told you... with the photo credited supposedly to Holger on another website... Holger therefore did not take that photo.


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## Kavanaru (May 17, 2012)

Maybe he has the copyright for cropping the photo


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## quietaustralian (May 17, 2012)

Roth said:


> To reply, yes Holger did not take that photo, but the collector, see here :
> 
> http://www.cypripedium.de/forum/messages/2838.html
> 
> That's the commercial offer from the Kunming man I told you... with the photo credited supposedly to Holger on another website... Holger therefore did not take that photo.



Ok, No doubt that these are the same photo and your explanation sounds plausible. I note that Dr Perner's pic is copyrighted a month earlier than the post in the link.
From the information you have given, it seems that you are saying that these plants have been found near the China/Việt Nam border in the vicinity of Lai Châu. If this is the case, this would be about 800kms from the site mentioned when first described?

Mick


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## Hakone (May 18, 2012)

the whole plant with four old shoots ( 1. year, 2. year, 3. year and 4. year )

photo taken from friend in Dalat ( South Viet Nam )


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## Hakone (May 18, 2012)

another plant , 2. year


photo taken from friend in Dalat ( South Viet Nam )


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## Roth (May 18, 2012)

quietaustralian said:


> Ok, No doubt that these are the same photo and your explanation sounds plausible. I note that Dr Perner's pic is copyrighted a month earlier than the post in the link.
> From the information you have given, it seems that you are saying that these plants have been found near the China/Việt Nam border in the vicinity of Lai Châu. If this is the case, this would be about 800kms from the site mentioned when first described?
> 
> Mick



Well, here is the collector's picture, taken in may ( blooming season june...):







And the picture credited to Holger:






They are from the same set of photos indeed, of the same plant. The seller's photo indeed was posted by someone who is a relative of the man who has the monopoly in Kunming, and I got confirmed that this whole set was taken by the two collectors, not Holger, as it appears clear ( as well, how come an unpublished photo from Holger would end up in a trader's network...). The man in Kunming said that those photos were taken in june 2009, which is consistent with the flower buds. Mid july, they would be in full bloom...

It is not the only case this happened over the years, there are even more famous ones, including several staged photos in Slipper Orchids of Vietnam.

Not Lai Chau, it would be too easy, it comes from an area north of A Pa Chai, but it is impossible to access normally, except through a military road from the Chinese side...


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## quietaustralian (May 18, 2012)

No argument from me. 
As many people are, I'm intrigued by this species so I have a couple of questions:

Do you believe that this species was found in-situ at Mêdog,Xizang, *Tibet* (China) as the original description says?

If you agree with the above, it would mean that the population that you mentioned would be just over 1000kms from the Mêdog area. I realize that the Malipo area has been well worked over by collectors but the frontier area of Lai Châu to a lesser degree. Is there any reason that this species couldn't be found in Lai Châu or in the vacinity of Malipo, Yunnan?

Mick


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## Hakone (Jun 13, 2012)

Another photo taken from friend in Sapa


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## Rick (Jun 13, 2012)

This last photo is awesome.

I hope a lot more breeding goes on with this plant.


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## NYEric (Jun 13, 2012)

Freaking amazing! I wish I could get some here.


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## NYEric (Jun 13, 2012)

How did I miss this thread before ?! :rollhappy:



KyushuCalanthe said:


> It would be even better if a few could be left alone unharassed, but with Burma seeming to want to open up relations with China that region is going to be under the gun like never before.



Yeah, Burma wants to open up relations like you'd want to open relations with the man standing on your neck! 




Roth said:


> Dont' worry it comes only from Vietnam...



The Glorious People's Democratic Republic once again request reorganization of the Imperialist borders placed upon our southern cousins' lands! 




Roth said:


> :evil: but of course nothing is impossible to men of good will, like finding hangianum in China... or gigantifolium maybe one day...



_"Child please!?" _


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## KyushuCalanthe (Jun 13, 2012)

Fantastic species. I hope efforts to grow them from seed work out. By the sounds of it every new colony that is found is quickly stripped. 



NYEric said:


> How did I miss this thread before ?! :rollhappy:



Sometimes you just have to wait for a good thing!



NYEric said:


> Yeah, Burma wants to open up relations like you'd want to open relations with the man standing on your neck!



As the Japanese saying goes, "Shouganai" - no choice. Who'd want to be sandwiched between India and China.


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