# Cypripedium acaule info



## JB_Orchidguy (Jul 2, 2006)

Hello everyone. I just made arangements for a trade with a gentleman on another board. I will be recieving 5 mature and big Cyp acaules ( light color form), from what he told me. His family owns some land in the mountains of Ga and they are growing on his property. These will be my first Cyps and was wondering if I could get some culture advise, and a recomended potting mix for here in Augusta area Ga. I live in Grovetown that is only a few miles away from Aug. The gentleman will be sending some of the dirt from the area they were growing for safe measures, but he said they shouldnt need it since these are mature flowering plants and not seedlings. Thanks for any and all advice.


----------



## Eric Muehlbauer (Jul 2, 2006)

OK....first of all, check your area....if there are any acaule's growing around you, you should have no problem. If not, get your soil tested...for success with acaule, you should have a sandy soil with a pH no higher than 5, preferably below that...the soil where I grow my acaules is 3.9...nutrients should be very low...they basically need acidic sand. If the soil doesn't match, take the soil he sends you...hopefully he will send you a lot...use it to fill the largest pot you can find, plant them, then sink it into the ground. The issue with acaule is that it needs very specific conditions...low pH, low nutrients, when established, low water is fine....when it has the right conditions, it is the easiest of all cyps to grow. If the conditions aren't exactly what it wants, it will be the fastest cyp to die....Take care, Eric


----------



## JB_Orchidguy (Jul 3, 2006)

Well, I am not sure how much soil he will be sending with the plants. I haven't seen any acaule in my area, but then again I haven't looked for them either. I really need to know how much light they need, and a soil mix too. I doubt he will ship enough soil with the plants to fill a large pot. So knowing what I should do to ammend my soil will help alot. My soil has a high sand content, but also clay. I would prefure pot culture first and a soil mix I can put together. I have ample peat since I use it with my carnivorous plants, and I can gather anything else I may need for a good mix. Thanks Eric for your help.


----------



## kentuckiense (Jul 3, 2006)

Ok, I apologize in advance if I sound like a jerk.

First off, I'm going to have to give my standard "don't get wild dug Cyps" speech. Cypripedium acaule is notoriously hard to maintain in a garden setting. They may flower for a season or two, but they quickly regress. I'd have to guess that it's even harder to maintain in a pot. Second, since these were wild, they are going to have a harder time adjusting and getting situated. Roots will be broken when the plant is dug. Possible fungal relationships will likely cease. It's just much easier to grow Cyps that have been lab propogated. They may be more expensive, but it shows good stewardship and you'll likely have healthier plants.

I've seen hundred(if not thousands) of C. acaule this spring and summer, and they've all had one thing in common: they were nestled in a thick bed of pine needles. Sometimes they were the only plant life aside from the pines. I'd recomend planting in decomposing pine needles, but I've never tried growing Cypripediums, so I'll wait for someone to answer that part. Also, their substrate must be acidic, as mentioned above. As for light, most of the plants I saw got light filtered by the pine canopy above.

Also, nobody on eBay currently offers lab propogated C. acaule. I know of several sellers that claim they do, but they definitely don't. I can attempt to answer any other questions you may have.


----------



## kentuckiense (Jul 3, 2006)

Also, here is the Georgia range of C. acaule:

http://plants.usda.gov/java/county?state_name=Georgia&statefips=13&symbol=CYAC3


----------



## JB_Orchidguy (Jul 3, 2006)

Thanks for the info. If they were from land other than his I wouldn't accept them, but they were grown on his property. Granted I am not there, and therefor do not know 100% for sure, but I trust him not to take something that is not on his land. I will have to see how long they survive, but I have seen others do ok. I duno about longer than 2 or 3 years out though so that might be the kicker there. I can get pine needles, and that will make things acidic. Thanks for the info. I was told on another forum that they are harder in pot culture, but then I see them in pot culture on websites so I duno. I guess some experimentation will be in order. He is sending some dirt from the area they were growing. Although on vermont slipper orchids they said the adult cyps do not need or use the fungal microryza(sp). I am not in the natural range of acaule. I am further east about i the middle og the diagonal border of Ga. I am basicly on the GA/SC border too. Thanks again everyone.


----------



## kentuckiense (Jul 3, 2006)

JB_Orchidguy said:


> Although on vermont slipper orchids they said the adult cyps do not need or use the fungal microryza(sp).



Tell that to Cypripedium irapeanum! However, C. acaule can do fine without, I think. It's just good to avoid all-encompassing statements.

It's be interesting to see if those pot culture photos are of 1 or 2 year-since-wild-removal plants.

I do realize that the plants come from private property, but I still encourage you to purchase lab propogated Cypripediums in the future. Here are several links:
http://www.uslink.net/~scl/
http://www.vtladyslipper.com/
http://www.phytesia.com/browse.php?rub=1&sub=3

Anyway, good luck with your plants!


----------



## JB_Orchidguy (Jul 3, 2006)

Thanks I will need it these are my first Cyps. There is just one problem with atleast two of the site posted. There stock is sold out. When do they normaly have seedlings available?


----------



## kentuckiense (Jul 3, 2006)

JB_Orchidguy said:


> Thanks I will need it these are my first Cyps. There is just one problem with atleast two of the site posted. There stock is sold out. When do they normaly have seedlings available?


Most places ship in the fall and/or spring.


----------



## Eric Muehlbauer (Jul 3, 2006)

C.acaule does fine from collected plants as long as the soil is the right type. I have had good success from acaule's salvaged from the Atlanta area...Again, the key is the soil...if it is to their liking, acaule is the easiest of all cyps to grow. If not, it dies the fastest..forget a season or two...it will never come back after the first season. As for light, dappled woodland light is the best. I have mine in open oak woods...when the plants first emerge in late April, they have essentially full sun. By bloom, the oaks have leafed out. But keep in mind that oaks offer open shade...lots of patches of sun for varying times during the course of the day. I have heard that for pot culture, a mix of 50:50 sand and milled sphagnum works well...but I have always grown them in my LI soil, even when trying them in pots....Take care, Eric


----------



## JB_Orchidguy (Jul 4, 2006)

Thanks again Eric. I asked this same question on another site I was on, and that happens to be the same site the gentleman I am trading with is on. After reading the thread and others saying that there is a high mortality rate for wild collected Cyps he said he is sending some smaller Cyps also and including about a gallon of dirt they were growing in. We both want this transplant to be successfull. Sorry to those folks that don't like people collecting wild plants. It was already done before he told me he was doing it.

I plan on building a raised bed area for them and using pine needles and redwood mulch if I can find it. I also might want to add some sand too. So what kind of sand would be recomended to use? I also will build a frame over the bed and put some lattice to dample out some of the sun, but still give bright light. How does this sound to you guys? I have success using a simmilar setup for my Cattleyas I have outside. Do you believe this will be too bright for the Cyps? Thanks everyone for the help.


----------



## Eric Muehlbauer (Jul 4, 2006)

Use ordinary builders sand...not playsand. It must be silica sand...much of the Playsand sold is actually oolitic aragonite, a Ca carbonate compound...certain, probably instant death for acaule. (Although for the reefkeepers on the list...much oolitic playsand, like Southdown, is excellent in a reef tank, and dirt cheap.) Your setup should be fine for acaule...they will survive with less light, but bloom better with more...just don't let them get full sun during the summer for any length of time. Take care, Eric


----------



## JB_Orchidguy (Jul 4, 2006)

Thank you again.


----------



## Rick (Jul 4, 2006)

kentuckiense said:


> Also, nobody on eBay currently offers lab propogated C. acaule. I know of several sellers that claim they do, but they definitely don't. I can attempt to answer any other questions you may have.




Vermont Ladyslippers has been propogating them for several years now, along with a few other species.

There are quite a few hobby cyp growers that are flasking, but I don't know if they are doing acule. Ron Birch was flasking a bunch of different Cyp species.

There are also allot of salvage plants out there too.

Also try Orchidmix.com to see what cyps he's been propogating.

I agree its generally poor stewardship to dig these out of undeveloped areas, but there are allot more that are getting bulldozed by developers before getting a chance to grow in someones back yard.

Try getting John Tullock's book Growing Hardy Orchids. There are allot of soil (and comprehensive culture) reccomendations for many species including acule in there.


----------



## kentuckiense (Jul 4, 2006)

Rick said:


> I agree its generally poor stewardship to dig these out of undeveloped areas, but there are allot more that are getting bulldozed by developers before getting a chance to grow in someones back yard.



Oh, I agree. But you can bet that if I ever own a house of my own and there is Cypripedium acaule on my property, I sure as hell won't be selling or trading them for personal profit. I know the seller/trader has every right to do so, but that's my personal opinion.


----------



## JB_Orchidguy (Jul 4, 2006)

Well I believe when there is a big stand of them on your property and your not disturbing the entire stand why not trade them for something else. Now robbing the entire stand is one thing, but as long as there are others there to grow, and produce seed then why not? That way if something happens to his stand I now have plants from that reagon I can send back to him to reintroduce if the need arises. Never keep all your eggs in one basket.


----------



## kentuckiense (Jul 4, 2006)

JB_Orchidguy said:


> Well I believe when there is a big stand of them on your property and your not disturbing the entire stand why not trade them for something else. Now robbing the entire stand is one thing, but as long as there are others there to grow, and produce seed then why not? That way if something happens to his stand I now have plants from that reagon I can send back to him to reintroduce if the need arises. Never keep all your eggs in one basket.


Are you being serious? You're grasping at air at this point. So this whole trade was simply so that you would be able to maintain some of his 'stock' should some catastraphe destroy the individuals on his property? Let's be honest here. He wanted a profit and you wanted fast and easy Cypripedium acaule. Sure, that's perfectly legal and everything. However, it's pretty clear that you made no prior effort to attempt to find artificially propogated plants. That's the mindset that puts many of our native orchids at risk. Honestly, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you were laying down a pretty thick line of BS with your last post.

Seriously, I wish you and your plants the best when they arrive. May they bloom for many more seasons to come. In the future, I just urge you to look into more ethical means of acquiring native orchids.


----------



## JB_Orchidguy (Jul 4, 2006)

kentuckiense You are correct I wanted a cheap and quick way to get some cyps, but with every acquisition from friends you act as a backup plan should something happen. Regardless of what was the motive in the beginning there is always that backup plan for the future. Now I am sorry that some folks do not like the fact that these were wild collected plants. The fact is though that every orchid you or anyone else owns once had to be gathered from the wild at one point in time. Prior to the knowledge of how to lab propagate.

The market still keeps the prices of these guys high and so that resulting high prices requires that I go through some other means to acquire plants. Now had they been wild collected from land other than the owners land or the collection had wiped out a stand then I wouldn't have done it. 

Also I do not believe there is anything unethical about the aquasition I just made. Had they been on governemt property or someone elses land with out permision to gather or wiping out an entire stand thats different, but none of those were the case. Different views and ways of thinking I guess.


----------



## Heather (Jul 4, 2006)

JB_Orchidguy said:


> The market still keeps the prices of these guys high and *so that requires that I go through some other means to acquire plants.*



Hmm...that's an interesting statement...Vermont Ladyslipper's prices are only about $35 for mature plants. I'd hate to see what you'd do for a kovachii.


----------



## Eric Muehlbauer (Jul 4, 2006)

In all fairness, C. acaule was probably the last cyp to be successfully grown from seed under lab conditions....for years, growers were finding them easy to germinate and grow through the first flasking, but that was the end of the line. Only recently have growers had success in raisng them to marketable size, and they are expensive. ....I'm not even sure if they can be successfully grown in the long run, in an outdoor, in ground environment (not pot culture)...they haven't been around long enough.At the same time, acaule is the most common cyp in the US, occurring in larger quantities over a wider area than parviflorum or reginae. And again, as I said before, all they need is the right soil to thrive. I have found healthy acaules growing right by the Long Island Expressway....and can withstand responsible collecting.The main objection to collecting acaule is when irresponsible dealers claim that they are "easy" plants, like that guy on Ebay....most dealers who sell acaule stress that these plants are very demanding and are not for average growers. I guarantee that acaule will never become a hot in demand garden plant...and that is, in many respects, its best guarantee of protection from overcollecting.Take care, Eric


----------



## kentuckiense (Jul 4, 2006)

JB_Orchidguy said:


> kentuckiense You are correct I wanted a cheap and quick way to get some cyps,


Ok, glad we got that out the way in the beginning.



JB_Orchidguy said:


> but with every acquisition from friends you act as a backup plan should something happen. Regardless of what was the motive in the beginning there is always that backup plan for the future.


Quite frankly, you're full of it. You know the original plan wasn't for you to act as some sort of safety deposit box. Quit trying to portray yourself as some sort of philanthropist.



JB_Orchidguy said:


> Now I am sorry that some folks do not like the fact that these were wild collected plants. The fact is though that every orchid you or anyone else owns once had to be gathered from the wild at one point in time. Prior to the knowledge of how to lab propagate.


Honestly, is that your best argument? I just bought 3 Phragmipedium fischeri from Matt Gore. Obviously, the great grandparents of these were probably nestled in the Ecuadoran mountains. However, I'd like to point out the differences between your case and mine. By purchasing from a reputable nursery that practices asymbiotic propogation, I am helping the conservation efforts of the species. No individuals were ripped from the wild as a result of my purchase, and the money from my purchase helps Gore Orchid Conservatory keep on doing what they do. In your case, you are DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for the removal of wild plants. In addition, you are only encouraging such actions. I'd also like to point out that you didn't even bother to research the cultivation of this species until AFTER the trade was finalized.




JB_Orchidguy said:


> The market still keeps the prices of these guys high and so that resulting high prices requires that I go through some other means to acquire plants. Now had they been wild collected from land other than the owners land or the collection had wiped out a stand then I wouldn't have done it.


The market price is high? Thirty-five dollars at Vermont Ladyslipper Company. Sure, they are out of stock. To a responsible cultivator with the wellbeing of the species in mind, that means "I'll just wait until the next batch is ready." It simply sounds like you refuse to pay the price for responsible orchid cultivation.



JB_Orchidguy said:


> Also I do not believe there is anything unethical about the aquasition I just made. Had they been on governemt property or someone elses land with out permision to gather or wiping out an entire stand thats different, but none of those were the case.


Ok, then tell me how many individuals you would collect? Would you collect half? Would you collect a quarter? What's your arbitrary number? After all, we don't want to "wipe out an entire stand."



JB_Orchidguy said:


> Different views and ways of thinking I guess.


You're right. I guess it just comes down to your mentality of "I do what I want."

Josh, I tried to be nice in the beginning. I tried to push you in the direction of artificially propogated plants and yet you still imply that you have every intention of just going for the cheap and easy solution in the future. Never the less, I do hope your plants will do well. Good luck.



Eric Muehlbauer said:


> In all fairness, C. acaule was probably the last cyp to be successfully grown from seed under lab conditions....for years, growers were finding them easy to germinate and grow through the first flasking, but that was the end of the line. Only recently have growers had success in raisng them to marketable size, and they are expensive. ....I'm not even sure if they can be successfully grown in the long run, in an outdoor, in ground environment (not pot culture)...they haven't been around long enough.At the same time, acaule is the most common cyp in the US, occurring in larger quantities over a wider area than parviflorum or reginae. And again, as I said before, all they need is the right soil to thrive. I have found healthy acaules growing right by the Long Island Expressway....and can withstand responsible collecting.The main objection to collecting acaule is when irresponsible dealers claim that they are "easy" plants, like that guy on Ebay....most dealers who sell acaule stress that these plants are very demanding and are not for average growers. I guarantee that acaule will never become a hot in demand garden plant...and that is, in many respects, its best guarantee of protection from overcollecting.Take care, Eric


I certainly understand what you are saying, and I really don't disagree with most of it. However, I'm simply of the mentality that if a native orchid is happy in its native habitat, then just let it be. Go hike out to it on a nice saturday afternoon. I'm certainly for the rescue of native orchids that are in danger. When I can, I help out a local group that does just that. I'm just tired of the mentality that we SHOULD just do what we want because we CAN do it, especially when there are more ethical alternatives.

One of the largest colonies of Cypripedium acaule in the area(if not the state) is just a few miles from where I'm sitting. Several years ago, the plants reportedly numbered over 1,000. At least half were then poached. No doubt, that poaching continued for several years. I went out to the site this spring and could barely count 25 or 30 plants. Take that for whatever it's worth, I guess.


----------



## kentuckiense (Jul 4, 2006)

As pointed out to me to another member, I have a Mexipedium xerophyticum and Phragmipedium besseae that can trace their division history back to wild plants. Both 1988, I believe. However, I am of the opinion that my acquisition of both didn't result in or encourage further collection.


----------



## Heather (Jul 4, 2006)

I think a lot of this comes down to how you, as a grower, justify and condone wild collection of plants. 

Is it okay to trade say, a kovachii if you have extra on your property for a besseae of your neighbors? 

Is it okay to collected and sell 1000 kovachiis on your property and wipe out the habitat completely just to make a buck? How about on someone else's property?

Is it okay to collect 1000 boisserianum and sell them as kovachii just to make a buck? 

Is it okay to save 10 kovachii from a site being clearcut or bulldozed and move them to a lab where they can be artificially propogated? 

Is it okay to import and grow wild collected plants with no intent to re-sell, breed or distribute? just to grow and enjoy the plant?


I'm using kovachii as an example because it is fresh in everyone's mind, but I think it can be just as easily applied to any native plant in demand.


----------



## kentuckiense (Jul 4, 2006)

Josh, what it comes down to is this: in the future, if you wish to continue native orchid cultivation, please make every possible effort to get lab propogated plants. I would greatly appreciate it. There's really not much more I can say.


----------



## JB_Orchidguy (Jul 5, 2006)

Thank you for the information. I'm done with the argueing. You insult me by telling me I am pulling statements out of my ass. Dude you have no clue about me as this is just the first time interacting with me. I don't have the luxury of going to the plants to see them. There are NONE in my area, and I do not have knowledge of any stands. Regardless of what you may think, every plant I own that came from someone else is a chance for them to recieve it back should something happen to thier plants. This goes for my sarracenia and any other plant I have. A few of my sarracenia are more endangered than the cyps are in the wild. I recieved them as devision from plants collected from the wild orriginaly, some rescues some not. I also have a seed grown S. oreophila and recieving another soon. 

The story you have of 1000 cyps turning into 25 to 30 plants. Thats wrong. No doubt about it. Those plants were illegaly collected. Although I have nothing to do with that stand shrinking. Maybe if there were more plants available in the market then the need for poaching would decrease. There is a difference in controlled collection of privately held stands then illegal poaching of unowned property.

Granted there may have been other ways to acuire these plants, but I chose to go this rought. With other species I can't aquire in a trade then I will buy from some place that lab propigates. Now if I know the plants are illegaly collected from private or government lands I would not finalize the trade. I have just one regret, and that is letting people know they were wild collected since it just brings brow beating from some indeviduals. I also get compaired to the poachers who take plants from goverment lands or private property without permision.

I am also not going to reseach something till the need arises for me to research it. I started researching as soon as the offer for the trade was made to me. The gentleman knew I wanted Cyps, and I had items he wanted. So the trade was offered. I started doing research for the plants as soon as the i hour conversation over the trade ended so when they arrived I could do what I needed to do for them. The fact that I started research for the plants as soon as the trade was offered is irrelavent.



> I think a lot of this comes down to how you, as a grower, justify and condone wild collection of plants.


Yes it is. Since I believe everything is not black and white.



> Is it okay to trade say, a kovachii if you have extra on your property for a besseae of your neighbors?


Yes its your land and plants it would be the same as tradeing fot a plant you have potted up.



> Is it okay to collected and sell 1000 kovachiis on your property and wipe out the habitat completely just to make a buck? How about on someone else's property?


Well if you want to destroy the habitat on your property that your business. I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't wipe out a population on someone elses property either. If tye do it thats there business.



> Is it okay to collect 1000 boisserianum and sell them as kovachii just to make a buck?


Now that is just fraud.



> Is it okay to save 10 kovachii from a site being clearcut or bulldozed and move them to a lab where they can be artificially propogated?


Yes that the ideal method of propigation.



> Is it okay to import and grow wild collected plants with no intent to re-sell, breed or distribute? just to grow and enjoy the plant?



No. since many of those wild collected plants were collected without permision. See I do have plans to one day be in the position to resell plants I have aquired thoguh my growing. I plan to breed plants and make hybreds. I don't plan on going into debt to do it so its going to be slow, but I will have an orchid/carnivorous plant nursery one day.



> I'm using kovachii as an example because it is fresh in everyone's mind, but I think it can be just as easily applied to any native plant in demand.



kovachii also had to be taken from the wild so it could be lab propigated. People had to learn how to grow it and then it needs to be refined so that it can be grown a little more compactly.

I duno what else to say. The plants are already collected. 

I will look for lab plants in the future, but regardless privately owned plant be them potted or be them in the ground will still be traded. Still regardless of what you think I am for conservation of orchids and CPs.


----------



## kentuckiense (Jul 5, 2006)

JB_Orchidguy said:


> I'm done with the argueing.


As am I.



JB_Orchidguy said:


> I will look for lab plants in the future


That's all I ask.


----------



## silence882 (Jul 5, 2006)

My turn my turn!

It is not inherently unethical to havest a wild-growing orchid. Cyp acaule is uncommon, but not rare and certainly nowhere near endangered. It is not poor stewardship to harvest a few plants from a large colony on private property. In fact, I would argue that restricting reasonable harvestation (i.e. not injuring a colony) is far more dangerous to the survival of a species. A colony can be reduced then allowed to rejuvinate. When that's done, you haven't hurt the colony and there are more plants in cultivation.

This isn't rural Vietnam where paph colonies are stripped and those that aren't sold in the local market are fed to the pigs. The slippery-slope argument doesn't apply.

Also, has everyone in the world but me seen wild cyp acaule?

--Stephen

p.s. As far as I know, xerophyticum has been found in only one location in Oaxaca, Mexico. It has been visited only twice, both times by scientific expeditions and entire plants were never collected. Divisions of 7 plants were collected and two of those ('Oaxaca' and 'Windy Hill') are the source of every plant in cultivation. No way in Hell this contributed to the demise of a species...


----------



## PHRAG (Jul 5, 2006)

I was going to respond a page ago, but then got distracted, and now I am too tired to type what I was going to type.

Josh is right about some things.
Zach is right about some things.
Stephen is right about some things.

Heather, ummmm. Heather is just wrong. :rollhappy: 

It is a complicated world we live in. I blame everything evil on Bush. It gets me through the day.


----------



## kentuckiense (Jul 5, 2006)

silence882 said:


> My turn my turn!
> 
> It is not inherently unethical to havest a wild-growing orchid. Cyp acaule is uncommon, but not rare and certainly nowhere near endangered. It is not poor stewardship to harvest a few plants from a large colony on private property. In fact, I would argue that restricting reasonable harvestation (i.e. not injuring a colony) is far more dangerous to the survival of a species. A colony can be reduced then allowed to rejuvinate. When that's done, you haven't hurt the colony and there are more plants in cultivation.
> 
> ...



You know I respect you and your opinion very much. However, I'm not totally sure about your 'rejunivation' hypothesis. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that decrease the gene pool of the colony? Obviously, that doesn't really happen in cases of minor collection.

I have a question about Mexipedium xerophyticum though. What is the 'Fairy Slippers' clone awarded in 2000? Is that just a cross between 'Oaxaca' and 'Windy Hill?'

And I suppose it's time that I accept my place in Slippertalk.com history as "that over-obsessive native orchids guy."


----------



## kentuckiense (Jul 5, 2006)

PHRAG said:


> Heather, ummmm. Heather is just wrong. :rollhappy:


Guys, I think we can *ALL* agree on that one! Who wants a group hug? ::cue happy sitcom music::


----------



## silence882 (Jul 5, 2006)

PHRAG said:


> I was going to respond a page ago, but then got distracted, and now I am too tired to type what I was going to type.
> 
> Josh is right about some things.
> Zach is right about some things.
> ...



I corrected your post so everyone would be clear  

--Stephen


----------



## PHRAG (Jul 5, 2006)

*cough*God-complex*cough*


----------



## kentuckiense (Jul 5, 2006)

PHRAG said:


> *cough*God-complex*cough*


These are for you.


----------



## JB_Orchidguy (Jul 5, 2006)

Sorry to set such hard feelings in motion, and I hope they have passed. i am not trying to alienate myself. I hope to still be able to fit into this community and be a valuable part of it.


----------



## PHRAG (Jul 5, 2006)

JB_Orchidguy said:


> Sorry to set such hard feelings in motion, and I hope they have passed. i am not trying to alienate myself. I hope to still be able to fit into this community and be a valuable part of it.


 
You are welcome here. You haven't even begun to do half the stuff some of us have. I am the king of the message board idiots.


----------



## kentuckiense (Jul 5, 2006)

JB_Orchidguy said:


> Sorry to set such hard feelings in motion, and I hope they have passed. i am not trying to alienate myself. I hope to still be able to fit into this community and be a valuable part of it.


I should apologize too. I get wound up sometimes.

I love you.

I want to be with you.


----------



## PHRAG (Jul 5, 2006)

kentuckiense said:


> I want to be with you.


 
Manwhore.


----------



## silence882 (Jul 5, 2006)

Good question! I know nothing about population genetics, and therefore I know nothing about how it applies to colonial species. Sounds like a fascinating topic, though. However, imagine a deer eating two of the plants and causing enough damage to kill them. How is that different from collecting a few?

I can't say for sure but I strongly suspect that 'Fairy Slippers' is a result of Marilyn Ledoux's xerophyticum breeding using one or both of the original clones. She would be the woman to ask: [email protected]

Fanaticism must be tempered by reason! Otherwise things get screwed up.

--Stephen



kentuckiense said:


> You know I respect you and your opinion very much. However, I'm not totally sure about your 'rejunivation' hypothesis. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that decrease the gene pool of the colony? Obviously, that doesn't really happen in cases of minor collection.
> 
> I have a question about Mexipedium xerophyticum though. What is the 'Fairy Slippers' clone awarded in 2000? Is that just a cross between 'Oaxaca' and 'Windy Hill?'
> 
> And I suppose it's time that I accept my place in Slippertalk.com history as "that over-obsessive native orchids guy."


----------



## JB_Orchidguy (Jul 5, 2006)

kentuckiense now your scaring me.  :ninja:


----------



## silence882 (Jul 5, 2006)

Wow, this thread got real weird real fast.



PHRAG said:


> Manwhore.


----------



## JB_Orchidguy (Jul 5, 2006)

I was thinking the same thing!


----------



## PHRAG (Jul 5, 2006)

Since when has any thread on this board stayed normal? Especially when Heather or Zach are involved. Just calling it like I see it.


----------



## kentuckiense (Jul 5, 2006)

_Once you go Zach you never go back_


----------



## PHRAG (Jul 5, 2006)

Josh, you should be happy. You know Zach has made peace and is on the way to becoming your friend when he tells you that he wants to touch you inappropriately.


----------



## kentuckiense (Jul 5, 2006)

PHRAG said:


> he wants to touch you inappropriately.


Only with consent. Not by force.


----------



## adiaphane (Jul 5, 2006)

Sorry guys, I am going to have defend Heather while you all are on your love fest. Besides, I'm sure Heather can take you all; as a matter of fact, I believe redheads are known for 'eating men like air.'

Josh--Welcom to the Forum where if you ask for an opinion, someone will tell you exactly what is on their mind wihtout fear of being banned.


----------



## JB_Orchidguy (Jul 5, 2006)

kentuckiense said:


> Only with consent. Not by force.



Well, atleast that is a plus.  Now if only Zach was female we would be getting someplace. oke: 

And in Bubba the love sponge fassion. I love you too in a non-gay way.


adiaphane said:


> Sorry guys, I am going to have defend Heather while you all are on your love fest. Besides, I'm sure Heather can take you all; as a matter of fact, I believe redheads are known for 'eating men like air.'
> 
> Josh--Welcom to the Forum where if you ask for an opinion, someone will tell you exactly what is on their mind wihtout fear of being banned.



I can take someone giving me their opinion, I just didn't expect the opinion I recieved.


----------



## PHRAG (Jul 5, 2006)

adiaphane said:


> Sorry guys, I am going to have defend Heather while you all are on your love fest. Besides, I'm sure Heather can take you all; as a matter of fact, I believe redheads are known for 'eating men like air.'


 
We wait till she goes to sleep to get our shots in.  



adiaphane said:


> Josh--Welcom to the Forum where if you ask for an opinion, someone will tell you exactly what is on their mind wihtout fear of being banned.


 
That's right. Josh knows this though. He started the thread linking to the Orchid Source Forum. Let's see him try that on any other orchid message board. They would ban him. I wish they were more open about linking to our forum over there at Orchid Source. Just know that in the future Josh you may encounter people with opinions very different from your own, and unless they become abusive, are given every chance to speak their mind.


----------



## JB_Orchidguy (Jul 5, 2006)

oh I have no hard feelings about it. I would expect nothing less, because believe me there will be a time when I come across a subject that I am just as passionate about.

I didn't realize the orchid source was like that. The only site I have had a problem with linking to other sites have been RV orchidworks. I stopped going there just about all together. since my warning about linking to other sites. I coulnd't even post my homepage there because I had links to terraforum and the orchid source. I have linked to threads from the orchid source at Terraforum all the time. As long as its not to a commercial site selling carnivorous plants I don't think they care. In fact terraforum is not afiliated with petflytrap anymore so I don't think it matters there anymore. They are a free entity.


----------



## Heather (Jul 5, 2006)

PHRAG said:


> Heather, ummmm. Heather is just wrong. :rollhappy:



Excuse me? I posed questions - how exactly is that wrong? 



PHRAG said:


> We wait till she goes to sleep to get our shots in.



This is all Brian's fault, he started the "Harsh on Heather Day" celebrations yesterday morning... shame on the rest of you people for not saying these things while I was awake. Cowards!  



adiaphane said:


> Sorry guys, I am going to have defend Heather while you all are on your love fest. Besides, I'm sure Heather can take you all; as a matter of fact, I believe redheads are known for 'eating men like air.'



Thank you, Tien, the second time today too....at least someone around here knows what's what.


----------



## Heather (Jul 5, 2006)

Just a note re: other forums...

In all fairness to OSF, I don't think they'd ban anyone over this but they've made it clear that linking, at least to other orchid forums - is not welcomed. I cannot put a link to my homepage or this forum (oh wait, same thing) without it being removed by someone without mention. 

RVO though is totally ridiculous about this, IMO - you cannot even say you got something at Home Depot without the Home Depot reference being edited out. I think it is really overkill and I think they've lost a fair amount of traffic because of it. Garden web also will lock you out if you post too many links to other related web sites. 

AOS is very tolerant of it, but who knows if anyone would actually see it over there?


----------



## Marco (Jul 5, 2006)

PHRAG said:


> I am the king of the message board idiots.



Josh you need to take a look at some of the pictures our idiots post. Like the one of John in the kovachii suit and Tadd......ummm....I'll just let you figure that one out on your own. oke:


----------



## JB_Orchidguy (Jul 5, 2006)

Marco. Have you got a link to some of these pictures? :evil:


----------



## PHRAG (Jul 5, 2006)

Heather said:


> Excuse me? I posed questions - how exactly is that wrong?


 
Oh, what you said wasn't wrong. I meant you are wrong just on principle. 
You know we wouldn't pick on you if we didn't love you. :smitten:


----------



## Rick (Jul 6, 2006)

After all that, now I double dare y'all to read John Tullock's book. Especially the chapter on ethics of collection and artificial propagation.


----------



## Marco (Jul 6, 2006)

JB_Orchidguy said:


> Marco. Have you got a link to some of these pictures? :evil:



You didnt get it from me oke: 

View the second link at your own risk. And dont tell me that I didn't warn you.


http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=372

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=365


----------



## likespaphs (Jul 8, 2006)

Heather said:


> ...This is all Brian's fault, he started the "Harsh on Heather Day" celebrations yesterday morning...



is it time to start again? i mean, good morning all. isn't this a lovely day to be alive and be friends with all the people on the earth?...yeh, that's it....


----------



## JB_Orchidguy (Jul 12, 2006)

Ok I went to Lowes today to get some redwood mulch, pine needles and sand. The only thing I was able to find was sand. I got play sand, but the bag said it was 100% silica sand (quartz). Is this adiquate? I assume it is, since I was told to only used silica sand. Ok I am sure I can find pine needles, I just need to look in a different place. I don;t think I am going to find redwood mulch here. 

I am affriad to try to use my soil ammended with anything, so I will be constructing a raised bed about 6 inchs deep. I will put a layer of weed block down then add some shredded pine needles, to help aid the decomposition of the needles. To this I was going to add the sand. Would a little peat moss for moisture retention and acidity be good? After mixxing that up I was going to spread the gallon of soil sent with the acaula plants that contains some fungus. I can see the microryzae filiments in the debris. Then I was going to plant the plants and cover with intact pine needles. How does this sound? The plants came in yesterday, and I was busy all day today. So I will definately be getting on it tomorrow evening. Thanks


----------



## cdub (Jul 13, 2006)

JB, sounds OK to me. I guess we'll have to wait and see how your plants respond. We'll look for word next Spring. Oh and I think your last issue is light. I know you spoke of constructing something to shield the plants from the hot GA Summer sun. Make sure those plants aren't in full sunlight. Although I have seen acuale's growing in near full sun here in Virginia, they didn't seem to be doing so well, and were definitely not blooming. Baking those leaves in the sun will kill them faster than anything.


----------



## JB_Orchidguy (Jul 13, 2006)

Yes I plan on constructing an awning of sorts over the bed to shield it from the sun. I was just going to use a piece of lattice os the sun rays move with the sun accross the bed.


----------



## terrestrial_man (Dec 24, 2006)

*A good thread here-enjoyable exchange!*

Here are my two cents worth. No discing intended.
There is definitely a need to develop the horticultural expertise to be able to grow and propagate our native orchids and other plants that may be endangered. Sadly for most they will slip away into obscurity before such occurs. 
I am not too sure that this kind of success can be attained by amateurs though serendiptiy does happen where a novice can contribute significantly to the successful mastery of such cultivation efforts. 
What is needed is for a concerted scientific/horticultural effort at the mastery of growing such plants as C. acaule so as to enable general commercial exploitation that would of itself protect native stands when availability is such that cost makes the desecration of natural habitats unprofitable. Yet are there any real efforts apart from those few enterprises that are slowly succeeding at in vitro production? 
To my mind not enough! What I would like to see is an entire package of plant, substrate, and whatever else is required as a consumer package that would provide some degree of success provided cultural limitations are met. 
The means to do so are available. The fact that no one is doing so is the barrier that prevents both an effective approach to protecting native stands and to providing the opportunity for the gardening public to embellish themselves with the beauty of these challenging plants.

Maybe this has been four bits worth!


----------



## Per (Feb 26, 2007)

First, I agree with the consensus that lab propagated Cyps are the way to go. I am happy to say that I have had the will power to pass up a few wild collection opportunities. Nevertheless, it is not my place to tell others what to do with their land, so I will stay out of the main debate. 

Second, I have a slightly different ethical question for the group (it seemed natural to continue it here, so sorry if this is the wrong place – I’m new). My question is purely hypothetical. I have not wild collected pollen, nor do I plan to do so, but I was wondering about the ethics of that practice. Is it unethical to collect pollen from a wild stand to pollinate a specimen already in one's collection to create lab-grown specimens with greater genetic diversity (assume no harm to the stand beyond that to the individual flower)?

Thanks!


----------



## dave b (Feb 26, 2007)

*so what ever happened*

Were there ever any follow ups from this guy regarding his transplants? 

Seems like one would be inclined to "show off" if successful, or run and hide in shame to never be seen again if they all died.

The outcome sounded bleak. Unfortunate. 

Just curious.


----------



## gonewild (Feb 26, 2007)

Per said:


> Second, I have a slightly different ethical question for the group (it seemed natural to continue it here, so sorry if this is the wrong place – I’m new). My question is purely hypothetical. I have not wild collected pollen, nor do I plan to do so, but I was wondering about the ethics of that practice. Is it unethical to collect pollen from a wild stand to pollinate a specimen already in one's collection to create lab-grown specimens with greater genetic diversity (assume no harm to the stand beyond that to the individual flower)?
> 
> Thanks!



Expect many different opinions.
I say it is perfectly OK.
But it is probably illegal to do so on public land.


----------



## kentuckiense (Feb 26, 2007)

gonewild said:


> I say it is perfectly OK.
> But it is probably illegal to do so on public land.



I agree with Lance here. However, I will add something: just don't overdo it.


----------



## NYEric (Feb 27, 2007)

If you take the pollen away how will the wild plants be fertilized?!?


----------



## Heather (Feb 27, 2007)

Interesting question Per, I too agree with Lance but I would imagine if it was a large group of acaule, taking some pollen from one or two would likely not harm the native population.


----------



## kentuckiense (Feb 27, 2007)

NYEric said:


> If you take the pollen away how will the wild plants be fertilized?!?


I don't think anyone is suggesting that taking ALL the pollen from a C. acaule population is acceptable. Taking pollen from a couple plants in a healthy population and then using it for conservation/propagation purporses seems ok in my book.


----------



## gonewild (Feb 27, 2007)

NYEric said:


> If you take the pollen away how will the wild plants be fertilized?!?



At least you did not say "If you take the pollen away what will the bees eat?" oke:


----------



## gonewild (Feb 27, 2007)

kentuckiense said:


> I don't think anyone is suggesting that taking ALL the pollen from a C. acaule population is acceptable. Taking pollen from a couple plants in a healthy population and then using it for conservation/propagation purporses seems ok in my book.



That is what I assumed.


----------



## Eric Muehlbauer (Feb 27, 2007)

I have personally taken pollen from wild C. acaule in order to pollinate my plants on Long Island, but whenever possible, I pollinated the wild plants while I was at it. Also, if the only wild plant has a single bloom on a single growth, there is no damage, as you are contributing to the propagation of the species...and selfing a single bloom on a single plant, causing it to put energy into seed, may prevent it from blooming or producing multiple growths, in the next season. Take care, Eric


----------



## NYEric (Feb 28, 2007)

gonewild said:


> At least you did not say "If you take the pollen away what will the bees eat?" oke:


Bees dont eat pollen. They use it for sex-lube! :rollhappy:


----------



## NYEric (Feb 28, 2007)

When I was a little boy in school I got cuffed by a teacher for refering to a bee sting as "the f^(k of death!"


----------



## NYEric (Sep 8, 2008)

Major bump. I just got 4 Cyp. acaules from an eBay source. A couple of them snapped below the leaves [still green] but the rest of the plant looks healthy. They were in what appears to be a peat moss media. [I'd post photos but when I went to J&R's to look at a "Oh you just must get one." DSL [$450 + another $450 for the micro lens] my wallet burst into flames, so no photos for you! Anyway, I figure there are 5 choices of what I could do w/ the plants. 
1. Try to make a home potting media and grow them for a while in my apartment. 
2. Put them in the fridge to cool them down and plant them next year. 
3. Pot them in the media and leave outside to finish the year and cool down. 
4. Plant them under a pine tree in the mixed garden where they are potentially vunerable to the public and animals. 
5. Plant them in the native landscape garden where no people can get to them but there's no pine needles and still animals could dig them up. 
I don't have a pH meter to check the soil yet. Any advice?


----------



## Eric Muehlbauer (Sep 8, 2008)

Bill Steele told me that after years of trying, he finally hit on a potting media that was OK for acaule: 50% sand, 50% fine sphagnum. Try potting them up in that mix....or, if you have transportation, go to an area where acaule is native, like eastern Long Island, and dig up a few cups of soil. If I were out there now, I'd bring some soil (its really sand...with trace amounts of oak humus, with a pH of 3.9) from my LI place. The advantage of getting the soil is that the mycorrizae would already be there. Regardless, pot them up and leave them outdoors to age naturally, then put them in the fridge for the 4 month cold treatment. Take care, Eric


----------



## Kevin (Sep 8, 2008)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> Regardless, pot them up and leave them outdoors to age naturally, then put them in the fridge for the 4 month cold treatment. Take care, Eric



Just wondering why the fridge method is necessary for native species.


----------



## Eric Muehlbauer (Sep 8, 2008)

They need a cold dormant period for their survival. In ground, winter does the trick...put in pots in a home or greenhouse, the fridge has to do the job that winter would do.......Eric


----------



## NYEric (Sep 8, 2008)

Well, I may be in L.I. thursday, wonder how much trouble I'll get in digging along the LIRR in Babylon!?


----------



## Kevin (Sep 9, 2008)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> They need a cold dormant period for their survival. In ground, winter does the trick...put in pots in a home or greenhouse, the fridge has to do the job that winter would do.......Eric



I am very aware of the needed dormant period. I put my potted native/hardy plants outside for the winter. Is this mainly for Eric, since he is in an apartment? That obviously would not do.


----------



## Eric Muehlbauer (Sep 9, 2008)

Yes...in an apartment, all you have is the fridge. An outside deck is unreliable...NYC winters can be astoundingly mild...some years we only have real winter weather for a month or two...but they can also be really cold and tough...A plant subjected to freezing temperatures in the ground will do OK...but a plant in a pot that is on a deck, frozen and cold on all sides, would probably freeze to death, unless the pot is really large. Take care, Eric


----------



## cnycharles (Sep 9, 2008)

especially if your deck or patio is on the 22nd flr, the temperature extremes could be pretty great. worst thing would be for the pot to thaw out, then get cold again, maybe a few times in a winter. deep underground the temperature wouldn't fluctuate that much. plus the pigeons might poop on the pot and then you'd have too much fertilizer in the media and the plant would die.


----------



## Kevin (Sep 9, 2008)

Thanks for the clarification. A pot of any plant left on a deck in cold winters is not a good idea.

JB - any update on your acaule?


----------



## NYEric (Sep 10, 2008)

I still haven't potted or planted my acaule yet. The vendor said they had been in a mix of natural mosses and pine mulch. So there I am carrying home my Walmart shopping from NJ [that's right kiddies, no Walmart in Manhattan] plus a bag of sphagnum/peat moss. I'll be in Long Island on thursday so I'll gather some sandy soil to add in the mix; then I have to go back to NJ on saturday for the 'small' 2 cubic foot bag of pine mulch!


----------



## Eric Muehlbauer (Sep 10, 2008)

If you can get that good sandy soil from LI, that's all you need...no additives. Eric


----------



## NYEric (Sep 11, 2008)

The person I'm meeting said there's no fields near the Babylon station. I told him I can just go to the nearest park and dig up some dirt. Hope I don't see myself on the Police Blotter tomorrow!


----------



## Eric Muehlbauer (Sep 11, 2008)

A park may not have natural soil for the area....what you need is the natural soil from the woods in eastern LI. Out past exit 60 or so...I once saw plants of acaule just off the expressway around exit 62 ....don't ask me what I was trying to do in the bushes there...but it was even harder to do considering that I had a black racer snake in one hand and a box turtle in the other...............Eric


----------



## NYEric (Sep 12, 2008)

Well since I was limited to the LIRR station area I starteds to dig some soil near the parking lot and of course the police rolled by so I only got a little. I'm going to Home Depot in NJ tomorrow and I'll lug the 2 CF bag home!


----------



## Heather (Sep 12, 2008)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> ...don't ask me what I was trying to do in the bushes there...but it was even harder to do considering that I had a black racer snake in one hand and a box turtle in the other...............Eric



I think you're going to have to tell us about this little jaunt, Eric. Inquiring minds want to know!


----------



## cnycharles (Sep 12, 2008)

NYEric said:


> Well since I was limited to the LIRR station area I starteds to dig some soil near the parking lot and of course the police rolled by so I only got a little. I'm going to Home Depot in NJ tomorrow and I'll lug the 2 CF bag home!



:rollhappy: oh my... if you're going to be in nj, there must be a sandy hill with some pines on it, probably has acaule growing there as well


----------



## Eric Muehlbauer (Sep 12, 2008)

Alright.....I was going out to LI with my family...the car stalled by the thruway. So, I saw, being on the edge of the Pine barrens, there might be some stuff to see while we waited...so I went off into the scrub by the parkway.... Found some garbage, and an old camp fire.....and a 5' black racer coiled up. I grabbed the racer, and as I grabbed it I saw a box turtle right near my feet. Grabbed that....went off to show the family...but first I had to do something...you know its dry there, and the scrub can use any liquid that it can get...was happy to supply it...so went to the fence...and of course, as I balanced my reptiles, there were 2 nice acaule's on the other side of the fence. No, I did not give them any fertilizer....went up to show the critters to the wife and kids, and the cops who had arrived to see what happened...all were suitably impressed. (Both reptiles released, btw...) Aren't you glad you asked? Take care, Eric


----------



## NYEric (Sep 15, 2008)

Nature boys trapped in the city! :rollhappy:


----------



## NYEric (Oct 3, 2008)

OK, I got the cyp acaules planted, a couple each in the 'natural landscape' garden and one of the eclectic planted gardens [but at least in pine needles under a pine tree]. I planted them [along w/ some goodyera pubescense] in the mixture they came in w/ some pine mulch added. The squirrels went on a rampage and attacked them overnight so some custom wirecovered cages were added. I received some [4] cyp reginae seedlings from an eBay vendor. I also have the remaining survivors of the plantlets I got from Gardens at Post Hill earlier this year, plus I'm waiting for some blooming sized ones to arrive. The question is, "should I plant them outside or cool them off and plant next Spring?"


----------

