# Phrag x paph



## mhtay1 (Jan 26, 2017)

Is this real? 
http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/Special/enbxm.html

If it's real, I want one. 


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## Happypaphy7 (Jan 26, 2017)

Nope. Fake. I think. 
At least, it cannot be from micranthum and besseae.
Look at the flower color and patterns. 

I think some people just willfully bend facts just to see if they can get away and be famous.
Like people who claim red noefinetia was found in the wild or the yellow one is a pure species for example.

We even have people in Korea who bring in rare and expensive Cymbidiums from Japan, plant them in the mountain near their village. Go back and "discover" in a few years.


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## PaphMadMan (Jan 26, 2017)

I have never seen evidence presented that convinces me a true Phrag x Paph hybrid exists. It seems that if anyone had such plants they would want them examined and tested and proven quite publicly, not seen once in a couple photos and never shown again. They would be valuable plants just for the novelty and scientific interest, no matter what they looked like. But are the plants or the test results well publicized? No. 

As for the pictures in that link... Those pics have been around for quite some time, and definitely don't convince me. Someone played around in a Brachy x Cochlo gene pool, plus something like tigrinum or henryanum, maybe some Parvi and produced a couple interesting hybrids. Then decided to pass them off as something else to get attention, and probably took them home and burned them so no one could ever prove them wrong. 

In one case where the plant actually was tested no Phrag chromosomes were found, only Paph, but that didn't stop it from being registered as a Paph x Phrag hybrid. As have several others. I'll believe it when I see proof, or at least a halfway convincing photo.


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## NYEric (Jan 26, 2017)

I believe they have been made.


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## blondie (Jan 27, 2017)

I have heard serval times that there have been crosses of these two genus. Yet the photos are eaier very unclear or show very heavy signes of the pod parent and nothing of the pollen parent. 

I remeber when working on the RHS orchid committee there was talks of these, as the one above was so spoke about, and they spoke about the other hybrids that had been made cant find the picture of it. The pic you could not tell if it was a paph or a phrag, yet it was said to be sterile. 

There have been quite a few regestered with the RHS, 

Phrphm. Charming Daughter; Registered by N. Toyoshima as Phrag. longifolium × Paph. henryanum
Phrphm. Confusion; Registered by Dr./Mrs. W.W. Wilson (Mans./Hatcher) as Phrag. Grande × Paph. Memoria J. H. Walker
Phrphm. Elisabeth Schrull; Registered by J. Werner as Paph. dayanum × Phrag. Sedenii
Phrphm. Fourman's Freckles; Registered by T. Fourman (O/U) as Paph. bellatulum × Phrag. schlimii
Phrphm. Fourman's Twilight; Registered by T. Fourman (O/U) as Phrag. schlimii × Paph. micranthum
Phrphm. Hanes' Magic; Registered by J. Hanes as Paph. stonei × Phrag. Albopurpureum
Phrphm. Malhouitri; Registered by Boullet as Paph. Harrisianum × Phrag. schlimii
Phrphm. n.r. (Phrag. besseae x Paph. micranthum)

I an open to the possiblity of crosses but with them being from different contents, and vastley different i dont think the DNA would cross.


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## PaphMadMan (Jan 27, 2017)

NYEric said:


> I believe they have been made.



And you have a whole basement full of them that you just haven't shared with the world, I suppose...


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## MorandiWine (Jan 28, 2017)

Without pictures or some sort of write up (peer reviewed would be best) I would say that Phrag x Paph hybrids would be considered #AlternativeFacts


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## mrhappyrotter (Jan 29, 2017)

I'd like to think that these intergeneric crosses are possible, but I've never been convinced from those specific photos, which I recall seeing on Dr. Tanaka's site many years ago. They certainly look well within the range of what you could expect from Paph hybrids with at least one cochlopetalum parent, and IIRC, they were supposedly parvi x besseae. Just doesn't add up, Occam's Razor, overwhelming precedence, and lack of substantial evidence all strongly suggest that those aren't really Phragmipaphiums.


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## orcoholic (Jan 29, 2017)

Alternative orchid.


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## Hien (Jan 29, 2017)

I don't know if this individual case is real or not , but I know it can be done , years ago I made a cross between a phrag mother plant w/ the pollen from a paph (don't remember exactly any more , I believe the mother is a hybrid , could be a Don Wimber with a parvi or a cochlopetalum pollen.
I am very sure because the first thing I did was taking the pollen from the mother phrag away to use on a different paph , so the only pollen on the phrag mother is the pollen from the paph.
The flasker took a sample of the seeds & examined under microscope and reported that the chance is almost none since they don't look like with embryo .
However we proceed with flasking , and it did result with one very strong single seedling with multiple grow in flask , the leaves look more like phrag than paph but not quite like the leaves of the mother plant .
Unfortunately , I am not skillfull with raising seedling from flask , and the plant died .
I wish I know a grower who could raise that plant properly at the time i would have donated that plant so it would survive.
The only reason that I had try it, was that I did not have a lot of experience with orchids at that time, so I did not have the inhibition of what can be done/not done nor of trying something not in line with conventional wisdom .
I would say that everyone should do it, if he/she has a lot of paph and phrag flower at the same time.
-Because other peoples say it is impossible does not mean it is impossible .
-Because someone had failed does not mean that you would fail .
-Because you failed before does not means you will fail in the future .


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## Drorchid (Jan 31, 2017)

I have tried many times to make Paph/Phrag crosses. I even tried crossing a tetraploid Paph with a tetraploid Phrag to hopefully increase my odds of a successful mating, and a few times I even actually got a seed pod to grow, but I have never been able to germinate any viable seedlings..I think those two genera are probably too genetically distant that it is highly unlikely to ever get viable plants, let alone a plant that will ever bloom. It may be likely (like Hien mentioned) to get an actual seedling to germinate (although the chance is very small), but most likely if you get an actual seedling to grow, it will be short lived.. All the photo's I have seen on-line of so-called Phragmipaphiums flowers turned out to be either 100% Paphiopedilums or 100% Phragmipediums.

I have been able to make Mexipedium/Phragmipedium crosses, and got viable seedlings to grow in the flask, unfortunately they were very weak growres, and even though we planted some seedlings in the greenhouse, they were short lived, and we were never able to see any in bloom :sob:

Robert


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## NYEric (Feb 1, 2017)

I agree it's probably difficult; but when I look at Mr. Glickenstein's intergeneric hybrids I think anything is possible.


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## mhtay1 (Feb 2, 2017)

Can someone try the same cross and see if it's real? Wish I owned a huge nursery to stock all the species and a lab to try crisscross all paphs n phrags species. 


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## valenzino (Feb 7, 2017)

I have few seedlings from a cross i've made sargentianum x rothschildinaum.... but plants are really looking 100% sargentianum at the moment...(to do it well i have removed pollen from pod parent just when flower opening...maybe happens same as crossing Zygopetalum with some other generas...outcome is just 100% Zygopetalum phenotype...)...let's see in some years...
Another cross i've meda was Don Wimber x armeniacum....same as described above... some seedlings germinated but short lived,or mumified and never grown...after years they just died...


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## valenzino (Feb 7, 2017)

Drorchid said:


> I even tried crossing a tetraploid Paph with a tetraploid Phrag to hopefully increase my odds of a successful mating



that was what i wanted to really test to see if was possible....but never had the chance to have a 4N Paph specie....

My top test will be Phrag sargentianum 4N x Paph rothschildianum 4N


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