# one more Phrag primary



## Ron-NY (Feb 20, 2007)

let see if this will be as easy


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## Kyle (Feb 20, 2007)

This one is a little tougher.

boisarianum x lindllianum?

The frills on he petals make me think the parent isn't longifolium

Kyle


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## Ron-NY (Feb 20, 2007)

pretty close Kyle


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## Kyle (Feb 20, 2007)

bois x sargintianum?


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## Ron-NY (Feb 20, 2007)

no, one parent correct


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## Kyle (Feb 20, 2007)

Which one is correct?

Is it: 

Boisarianum/reticulatum/cwerkovanum (sp?) x lindlianum/kaiatorum/sargentianum?

Kyle


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## Ron-NY (Feb 20, 2007)

one from column A, none from column B


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## Kyle (Feb 20, 2007)

bois x richterii


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## Ron-NY (Feb 20, 2007)

that is a good guess, but no...still have one correct parent...don't second guess your instincts


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## Kyle (Feb 20, 2007)

bois x klotz?

Or bois x pearcii.

I'm having trouble figuring out where it gets the color from.

Kyle


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## Ron-NY (Feb 20, 2007)

boisserianum is one parent the other parent was mentioned somewhere in this thread


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## Kyle (Feb 20, 2007)

Every guess I've made has included bois as a parent. 

Ron, I'm stumped. Tell me what it is so I can get some work done today!

Kyle


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## kentuckiense (Feb 20, 2007)

Praying Mantis? bois x long


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## Kyle (Feb 20, 2007)

That must be it. I did mention longifolium.

I think i had a mental block. Personally, I don't understand why people make hybrids between two closely related species. As a hybridizer, what did they hope to accomplish with this hybrid?

Or wallisii x caudatum. Or besseae x dalessandroi.

Kyle


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## ORG (Feb 20, 2007)

How is it with Phrag. lindleyanum X Phrag. vittatum?

Best greetings

Olaf


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## Ron-NY (Feb 20, 2007)

kentuckiense said:


> Praying Mantis? bois x long


 :clap:that is it!! Kyle you did mention it in your first post but then second guessed yourself


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## kentuckiense (Feb 20, 2007)

Ron-NY said:


> :clap:that is it!! Kyle you did mention it in your first post but then second guessed yourself


Yeah, I feel bad for that one. I pretty much just drafted off Kyle and then passed him at the finish line.


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## Kyle (Feb 20, 2007)

Ass hole


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## NYEric (Feb 21, 2007)

Kyle said:


> Personally, I don't understand why people make hybrids between two closely related species. As a hybridizer, what did they hope to accomplish with this hybrid?
> Or besseae x dalessandroi.
> 
> Kyle


Actually, the Jersey [of course if it really is besseae x dalessandroi!?!] is different and will add colors to its hybrids!


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## Kyle (Feb 21, 2007)

But no different then if you were to use a pure besseae or dalessandroi to make hte hybrid. But it does create the opportunity for hybrids to be confused for species. From a conservation point of view, its bad.

It seems to me to be alot of time and effort for a grower to go from setting seed to get a blooming plant just to have it turn out like as they do. It take just as much effort to raise a good hybrid as it does a crappy one. 

Hybridizers should set goals. 

I don't see any goals being met when besseae and dalessandroi are crossed (or wallissii and caudatum or bois and longifolium)

To quote lien luu: Don't you all start yelling at me...


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## gonewild (Feb 21, 2007)

Kyle said:


> But no different then if you were to use a pure besseae or dalessandroi to make hte hybrid. But it does create the opportunity for hybrids to be confused for species. From a conservation point of view, its bad.
> 
> It seems to me to be alot of time and effort for a grower to go from setting seed to get a blooming plant just to have it turn out like as they do. It take just as much effort to raise a good hybrid as it does a crappy one.
> 
> ...



Not yelling but.....

Breeders need to consider many other factors other than the actual flower.

Once a hybrid is made the "specie form" is no longer a factor or even a concern to the breeder. The hybrid was made to change from the reality of nature to a fantasy for human appreciation.

Perhaps the hybridizers are looking at something other than improved flowers. Growth habit, vigor, environmental tolerances, flowering time and many more factors can be breed for using similar species. 

I don't know if dalessandroi can bring in any backstage improvements but perhaps there is a reason to use it in combination with besseae.

Perhaps some generations down the line besseae hybrids will be improved with the use of similiar species and some hybridizing goals may be seen.


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## Heather (Feb 21, 2007)

gonewild said:


> I don't know if dalessandroi can bring in any backstage improvements but perhaps there is a reason to use it in combination with besseae.



Yes, such as cutting down on besseae's penchant for climbing! 

However, I do agree that Jersey has confused the besseae/dalessandroi species quite a bit (having purchased at least one "dalessandroi" that was clearly Jersey).


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## gonewild (Feb 21, 2007)

Heather said:


> Yes, such as cutting down on besseae's penchant for climbing!



Exactly.



> However, I do agree that Jersey has confused the besseae/dalessandroi species quite a bit (having purchased at least one "dalessandroi" that was clearly Jersey).



Yes, But it was not the hybridizer who caused the confusion. Nor was it the hybrid itself. Someone either through error or deceit mislabeled the plant you bought and that caused the confusion.


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## Kyle (Feb 21, 2007)

I can't think of many reasons to use the hybrids. 

Don't like climbing? Use 100% dal in oyur hybrids

Want 'frilly' petals? Use 100% bois. 

I was thinking of other characteristics then flower. And I can't think of many reasons to hybridize two very closely related species. Other then, they are both in bloom and you have an extra tooth pick.

Kyle


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## Kyle (Feb 21, 2007)

gonewild said:


> Yes, But it was not the hybridizer who caused the confusion. Nor was it the hybrid itself. Someone either through error or deceit mislabeled the plant you bought and that caused the confusion.



But human nature being what it is, its bound to happen that people will miss lable the plant to make money. I think most people would rather have phrag dalessandroi then Phrag Jersey.

Kyle


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## Persephone (Feb 21, 2007)

Kyle said:


> But human nature being what it is, its bound to happen that people will miss lable the plant to make money. I think most people would rather have phrag dalessandroi then Phrag Jersey.
> 
> Kyle




Hey!  
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## SlipperFan (Feb 21, 2007)

I can see a situation where a hybridizer, back in the days when dalessandroi was not considered a separate speciea, might use one plant for it's color/shape and another for it's branching habit.


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## Kyle (Feb 21, 2007)

I think the was the case with the Eric Young Foundation. 

Kyle


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## Heather (Feb 21, 2007)

Yes, hence Jersey. Blah.....


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## Kyle (Feb 21, 2007)

Once the registar began allowing dalessandroi as a seperate species, EYOF went back and re-registered all there old hybrids with new names. They had been using dalessandroi all along.

Kyle


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## gonewild (Feb 22, 2007)

Kyle said:


> I can't think of many reasons to use the hybrids.
> 
> Don't like climbing? Use 100% dal in oyur hybrids



Then you loose the 4 or 5 generations of "improved" flower form bred into besseae. 

To breed away from the climbing habit I would think you would want to select the biggest, brightest, and _bestest_ besseae available and breed it with the most compact, least climbing dalessandroi you can lay your hands on.



> Want 'frilly' petals? Use 100% bois.



The other species must have some unique characteristic to impart?



> I was thinking of other characteristics then flower. And I can't think of many reasons to hybridize two very closely related species. Other then, they are both in bloom and you have an extra tooth pick.



I'm sure a lot of crosses are made for that exact reason. But each species can have it's own influence on a hybrid and although slight it may ultimately be important.


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## gonewild (Feb 22, 2007)

Kyle said:


> But human nature being what it is, its bound to happen that people will miss lable the plant to make money. I think most people would rather have phrag dalessandroi then Phrag Jersey.
> 
> Kyle



Your point is well taken.

But is someone who would purposely mislabel a plant just to make money really "people"? Not in my opinion, There are better names for them.

If most people would do this then the whole concept of labeling plants is a waste and so is the registration process.


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## NYEric (Feb 22, 2007)

I would rather have both. Plus the besseae x dalessandroi definately make a distinct color difference.


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