# spicerianum varieties



## goldenrose (Oct 31, 2008)

I came across a listing of spicerianum var. tibetensis. Anyone heard of, or know what the difference might be? I'm guessing regional?


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## labskaus (Nov 6, 2008)

Is it Billy's buds?
That guy's trying to fool you, Rose. St.Albans is a famous old clone of the normal variety and the other may be one of his own (not so famous).
I know only of one variety of spicerianum, that is var. giganteum with larger plants and flowers than normal.

Wikipedia tells me that Tibets cultural area reaches parts of Western Yunnan. and there was an article in the OD recently about a small population of spicerianum having been found on Chinese territory (can't remember exactly where). I can't remember if the authors have given this population some varietal name, but I recall these things looked like the average spicerianum. *If* this or any other nearby population has been plundered, and *if* the other parent in this cross is from a chinese population called var. tibetense, the use of St. Albans as one parent makes any varietal name for the cross redundant.

A list like that one on that homepage makes me believe that guy is a skilled sales person...

Best wishes, Carsten


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## Roy (Nov 6, 2008)

Carsten, an interesting description of spicerianum V Giganteum flower. Where did you get it?
I bought a spicerianum v Giganteum off a species specialist who gets his plants from, as I understand it, very reliable sources. Yes, the plant is much, much larger than a standard spicerianum BUT the flowers are actually smaller than a normal wild spicerianum..
This is a genuine comparison of the two plants collected in the wild. Some of the outcrosses spicerianums flowering today dwarf the giganteum.


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## goldenrose (Nov 6, 2008)

labskaus said:


> Is it Billy's buds?
> That guy's trying to fool you, Rose..... A list like that one on that homepage makes me believe that guy is a skilled sales person...Best wishes, Carsten


Thanks Carsten - Yes it was. 
Has anyone had dealings with him/them? They do have quite a list. Hopefully some of our Minnesotians have an opinion!


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## labskaus (Nov 6, 2008)

Roy said:


> Carsten, an interesting description of spicerianum V Giganteum flower. Where did you get it?
> I bought a spicerianum v Giganteum off a species specialist who gets his plants from, as I understand it, very reliable sources. Yes, the plant is much, much larger than a standard spicerianum BUT the flowers are actually smaller than a normal wild spicerianum..
> This is a genuine comparison of the two plants collected in the wild. Some of the outcrosses spicerianums flowering today dwarf the giganteum.



I think Cribb mentioned variety giganteum in his book, but I'd need to check that.
My giganteum is also is from a source which I consider reliable. I have to admit that the flower was normal in size when I received it, but it was still a small plant and the vendor convinced me it should get larger on a larger plant. Actually, I can hardly complain since the vendor gave it to me for nothing cos it had a damaged new growth. Plant is much larger than my normal one.

I've seen some spicerianums at a show recently which were "giganteum", and there's a thread in a european forum which shows both forms together:

http://forum.orchideenfreunde.eu/showthread.php?tid=367&pid=1705&highlight=spicerianum#pid1705

I've no idea where or if the giganteum form thrives in nature.

Best wishes, Carsten


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## paphreek (Nov 6, 2008)

goldenrose said:


> Thanks Carsten - Yes it was.
> Has anyone had dealings with him/them? They do have quite a list. Hopefully some of our Minnesotians have an opinion!



Jim Bull is the owner. The former name of the business is Castle Rock Orchids, originally owned by Mr. Wharton Sinkler, a noted hybridizer of Paphs and Miltonias. Most of the Paphs are from Mr. Sinkler's breeding. I noticed that the spicerianum parent in question bears the cultivar 'Maple Plain'. This is a cultivar name commonly used by Wharton Sinkler. In going over the listings, Mr. Sinkler would sometimes note a particular species as coming from a certain area most likely in order to distinguish it from other plants of the same species that he owned. On this list, Jim has merely printed the crosses exactly as noted on the original tags from Castle Rock.

Jim Bull's specialty is Cattleyas, but he is coming "up to speed" quickly on Paphs. In order to stay in business with such a large facility, Jim's business includes wholesale sales to the florist trade; providing perrenials, including native orchids and Hostas, to the general public and local landscaping companies; and supplying exotic cut flowers, including Paphs, for weddings, etc.


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## NYEric (Nov 6, 2008)

Thanx for the info.


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## Candace (Nov 6, 2008)

Rose, I placed an order. I'll PM you.


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## slippertalker (Nov 6, 2008)

I vaguely remember a listing from Rand's of Paph spicerianum var tibetensis, and it was at the tail end of the legal importation of paph species. Obviously it came from China (Tibet) as compared to the normal population in India (Bhutan) and I believe it was sold as being a bit more green than the typical tan form.


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## labskaus (Nov 7, 2008)

slippertalker said:


> I vaguely remember a listing from Rand's of Paph spicerianum var tibetensis, and it was at the tail end of the legal importation of paph species. Obviously it came from China (Tibet) as compared to the normal population in India (Bhutan) and I believe it was sold as being a bit more green than the typical tan form.



Ray Rand was apparently a rich source of names 

I looked up this years OD April/May/June issue last night, and yes, the spicerianum form from South Yunnan was described as being greener than the Indian form.
I also looked into my books and couldn't find a written reference for var. giganteum. Both Cribb and Braem (1988) shared the opinion (how could that happen?) that spicerianum was variable in flower-and plant size and did not recognize any varieties. Matt Gore mentions this variety on his webpage, but neither the Kew list nor the Wellensteins Paph name bibliography know this epiphyt. Makes me think that "var. giganteum" is just a trade name as is "var. tibentense", in fact.

Best wishes, Carsten


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## Roy (Nov 7, 2008)

labskaus said:


> Makes me think that "var. giganteum" is just a trade name as is "var. tibentense", in fact.
> Best wishes, Carsten



I think you are correct with this thought Carsten. Some time ago I purchased a Paph liemianum v Giganteum which was imported decades ago, probably in a first import batch. According to Olaf Gruss, there is no such variety, its just a trade or commercial name.


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