# roth album



## ehanes7612 (Nov 15, 2011)

I wonder how much a Paph rothschildianum album would be worth? and how would you go about pricing it?


----------



## Marc (Nov 15, 2011)

Roth album might easily go into the ten thousands of dollars. I personally would never pay so much for a plant but there are people out there who will.

Now the questions remains, why are you asking this.


----------



## ehanes7612 (Nov 15, 2011)

Marc said:


> Roth album might easily go into the ten thousands of dollars. I personally would never pay so much for a plant but there are people out there who will.
> 
> Now the questions remains, why are you asking this.



ive wondered about how i would go about selling one if i happened to bloom one out, you know, along the lines of what i would do if i won the lottery...(my scenario involves a letter to my lawyer going out incriminating those i contacted about the plant, in the event i suddenly died and the plant was stolen)...hmm, wonder if the figure could reach 6 digits?


----------



## Hakone (Nov 15, 2011)

ehanes7612 said:


> I wonder how much a Paph rothschildianum album would be worth? and how would you go about pricing it?



Do you have Photos ?

thank you very much


----------



## ehanes7612 (Nov 15, 2011)

Hakone said:


> Do you have Photos ?
> 
> thank you very much



you are welcome..i dont actually have a roth album...and to my knowledge, one doesnt exist..the thread is HYPOTHETICAL...if one happened to come into existence, what would be the value


----------



## Hakone (Nov 15, 2011)

highest $ 1000


----------



## paphioboy (Nov 15, 2011)

Hmmmm... Maybe you could have a look at this thread in another forum when kolo alba was still quite rare and follow what the owner did? 

http://www.mombu.com/orchids/orchids-gardens/t-paph-kolopakingii-var-alba-9637742.html

And

http://forum.theorchidsource.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/133976/Paph_kolopakingii_v_alba.html


----------



## Hakone (Nov 15, 2011)

Sam sells for $ 200


----------



## ehanes7612 (Nov 15, 2011)

yeah, i wonder who that NYC person is? I can only guess...but i wont


----------



## jtrmd (Nov 15, 2011)

40$ a growth?


----------



## Clark (Nov 15, 2011)

You will find your answer within this vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QsFDpTEl84


----------



## Mocchaccino (Nov 15, 2011)

ehanes7612 said:


> you are welcome..i dont actually have a roth album...and to my knowledge, one doesnt exist..the thread is HYPOTHETICAL...if one happened to come into existence, what would be the value



I got the same thought. I believe those claimed to be sanderianum or roth album are bascially not true.


----------



## NYEric (Nov 15, 2011)

Theoretically, you already know how to go about selling such a plant. The only thing is what you would want to do with it. i.e., if you would want to give it to a breeder for future distribution or sell to someone's private collection. The latter would get you a higher price but would be really restrictive.


----------



## ehanes7612 (Nov 15, 2011)

NYEric said:


> Theoretically, you already know how to go about selling such a plant. The only thing is what you would want to do with it. i.e., if you would want to give it to a breeder for future distribution or sell to someone's private collection. The latter would get you a higher price but would be really restrictive.



exactly


----------



## eggshells (Nov 15, 2011)

I was actually googling about this a couple of weeks ago. Would it be possible that the roth breeding of today might yield a roth album even if the parents are not. Even a small percentage?


----------



## ehanes7612 (Nov 15, 2011)

eggshells said:


> I was actually googling about this a couple of weeks ago. Would it be possible that the roth breeding of today might yield a roth album even if the parents are not. Even a small percentage?



well, albums have to come from somewhere...even in the wild..i imagine albums are mutations that occur with normal adults in meiosis (pollen and egg production)...which are extremely unlikely random events but given the nature of artificial roth breeding in high numbers, that chance might increase from extremely unlikely to slightly less extremely unlikeliness


----------



## eggshells (Nov 15, 2011)

I saw this one at flickr. It says semi alba so not pure alba. Looks weird but I like!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/4599710912/


----------



## eggshells (Nov 15, 2011)

Not sure if true.. looks like a parvi cross.. NVM it looks like photoshopped


----------



## paphioboy (Nov 15, 2011)

eggshells said:


> I saw this one at flickr. It says semi alba so not pure alba. Looks weird but I like!
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/4599710912/



LOL. Bad photoshopping indeed :rollhappy:  Looks like he stuck a niveum lip onto a roth flower. There's no staminode..


----------



## ehanes7612 (Nov 15, 2011)

i agree..photoshopped...really bad photoshop too


----------



## eggshells (Nov 15, 2011)

Yea lol. the pouch is mis aligned too. Hopefully ehanes blooms one so we can get a real roth album!


----------



## ehanes7612 (Nov 15, 2011)

eggshells said:


> Yea lol. the pouch is mis aligned too. Hopefully ehanes blooms one so we can get a real roth album!



if that happened i would be too afraid to advertise it...but i would probably self it...sell it (if it survived breeding) and then say something...but i am not counting on it


----------



## eggshells (Nov 15, 2011)

Can plants be insured? I wonder if it can. With all these stealing and such. One might need into looking for insurance.


----------



## ehanes7612 (Nov 15, 2011)

eggshells said:


> Can plants be insured? I wonder if it can. With all these stealing and such. One might need into looking for insurance.



i heard years ago that some high end insurers of antiques would insure a plant but that it was prohibitively expensive..i would imagine that businesses can get some kind of protection just from their regular insurance


----------



## Kavanaru (Nov 15, 2011)

eggshells said:


> Not sure if true.. looks like a parvi cross.. NVM it looks like photoshopped



LOL there is no photoshop in that photo... That was taken as a joke (I think it was a thread here in ST or other forum)... Leucho lip on a book (Roth pic)


----------



## Marc (Nov 17, 2011)

eggshells said:


> Can plants be insured? I wonder if it can. With all these stealing and such. One might need into looking for insurance.



With the right amount of money anything can be insured. Lot's of famous artists, musician and atletes have insurance on specific body parts.


----------



## Roth (Nov 17, 2011)

Marc said:


> With the right amount of money anything can be insured. Lot's of famous artists, musician and atletes have insurance on specific body parts.



What about Rocco Siffredi ????


----------



## NYEric (Nov 17, 2011)

Probably! I am! :evil:


----------



## Drorchid (Nov 17, 2011)

ehanes7612 said:


> well, albums have to come from somewhere...even in the wild..i imagine albums are mutations that occur with normal adults in meiosis (pollen and egg production)...which are extremely unlikely random events but given the nature of artificial roth breeding in high numbers, that chance might increase from extremely unlikely to slightly less extremely unlikeliness



In the 11 years that I have worked here at Orchids Limited, I have experienced twice that we got "album" plants out of regular colored plants. This usually happens when a plant has been selfed for one or two generations, so if a recessive mutation has occurred (which a albino form usually is) it will express it self when both recessive genes are present (and the chance of this occuring increases with inbreeding, or selfing).

The first example is when we selfed a regular colored Houletia brocklehurstiana. About 1/4 of them turned out album.

Regular H. brocklehurstiana:






albino form:











The same is true when we selfed one of our Phal. hieroglyphica's. Interestingly the plant we selfed was already lighter colored than a regular Phal. hieroglyphica, so I think the albino gene was already present, but there was only one copy. By selfing this plant, some seedlings got two copies of the recessive gene, and became albino.

Regular Phal. hieroglyphica:





Lighter colored Phal. hieroglyphica:






albino hieroglyphica.





We have now bred this line of albino hieroglyphica's by sibing two of the albino's. We are already in our 3rd generation.

So yes, in theory I think eventually we will see an "albino" rothschildianum, and the same is true for an "albino" Phrag. kovachii. Now the value is all in the "eye of the beholder"....

Ps. Private me if you come across one, and I will give you $ 100 for it!!


----------



## ehanes7612 (Nov 17, 2011)

yeah but who selfs roths anymore?


----------



## eggshells (Nov 17, 2011)

Not sure but do people still self Mont Millais?


----------



## Justin (Nov 17, 2011)

ehanes7612 said:


> yeah but who selfs roths anymore?



I'm very excited about doing a 'Borneo' x self this spring if all goes well, as it looks like my plant is in bud. There are some very nice, very colorful roths that can come out of this selfing, and they don't have the homogeneous form of the current breeding.


----------



## emydura (Nov 17, 2011)

eggshells said:


> Not sure but do people still self Mont Millais?



A guy here just bought a seedling recently of this selfing.

David


----------



## Roth (Nov 17, 2011)

eggshells said:


> Not sure but do people still self Mont Millais?



Yes, I did this year. MM selfings can be really excellent, especially if tetraploids. However most people would make siblings between two roths, which means that the chances of getting an albino out of siblings is close to 0.

There has been some albino paphs that appeared as a result of selfings, and are unknown in the wild. Kolopakingii ( I am pretty sure it was a selfing, not a sibling... maybe two pieces of the same plants crossed together, or sister plants from the wild), coccineum ( two different strains), hennissianum, fowliei. and twice delenatii ( one at Vacherot and Lecoufle, one at Ratcliffe, out of the old strain, decades ago).

Now for roth album, there are still heaps of rothschildianum in the wild, slowly collected colony by colony, so it is possible that sooner or later an albino will appear ( if the plant is not in the casualties before it blooms).



emydura said:


> A guy here just bought a seedling recently of this selfing.
> 
> David



I have seen a lot of rothschildianum Mt Millais selfings offered in the past, some were bogus. It depends where he got his plant from. Tokyo Orchids used to have selfings blooming size, Fumi had some too of his own, Frank Smith had selfings, though I don't know if he made them himself or not, Azhar Mustapha had selfings of MM at a point too. The remaining, there are many really doubtful plants sold under the name MM x self, believe me.

The Orchid Zone did not make any selfings, and the EYOF used to have some selfings maybe 15 years ago ( including the tetraploid ones, like Trinity).

Kevin Porter used to sell MM selfings maybe 10 years ago, they were apparently real too. This is another issue when buying expensive plants, if the competition label bogus plants with the same name as the expensive parent, the market price drops for no real reason...


----------



## NYEric (Nov 18, 2011)

I believe I saw a MM on eBay last week but i would not pay higher price for one unless i knew it was true.


----------



## silence882 (Nov 18, 2011)

Roth said:


> There has been some albino paphs that appeared as a result of selfings, and are unknown in the wild. Kolopakingii ( I am pretty sure it was a selfing, not a sibling... maybe two pieces of the same plants crossed together, or sister plants from the wild), coccineum ( two different strains), hennissianum, fowliei. and twice delenatii ( one at Vacherot and Lecoufle, one at Ratcliffe, out of the old strain, decades ago).



Do you have any more information on the albino delenatiis from the old strain? Do you know if they were ever mentioned in any orchid literature? I was under the impression that the old strain plants derived from a very limited importation that may have shrunk to as little as a single surviving plant before they were widely propagated. It seems in that case that an albino being found within that breeding line would be highly unlikely. Perhaps the albino appeared and then died before the population bottleneck?

The large number of albino delenatiis now available on the market are undoubtedly from the rediscovery of delenatii in Vietam in 1990. There were more than enough collected and exported for at least a few to have popped up. Of course, as far as I know Vietnam never agreed to legally export any of those plants. That would make every albino delenatii on the market progeny of an illegal plant...

--Stephen


----------



## emydura (Nov 18, 2011)

Roth said:


> I have seen a lot of rothschildianum Mt Millais selfings offered in the past, some were bogus. It depends where he got his plant from. .



All I know is that Sam Tsui transported the plant into the country but that the plant was from Japan. Sam was just acting as a courier. It is supposedly NFS.

David


----------



## Justin (Nov 18, 2011)

Sam himself had flasks of MM x self a few years ago. I have a few small seedlings from that one.


----------



## Rick (Nov 19, 2011)

Justin said:


> Sam himself had flasks of MM x self a few years ago. I have a few small seedlings from that one.



Try the basket method Justin. (And cut the K)

Some roth seedlings I put in baskets have been growing really fast since I put them in it.


----------



## Justin (Nov 20, 2011)

Hi Rick,

Baskets won't work for me as I am indoors; however, I am a full convert to your low-k philosophy. 

Since I started cutting my MSU fert with calcium nitrate and epsom salts (I know you use a different magnesium form), my plants have exploded with vigorous, stiff, healthy green growth. And no major resurgence of bacterial or fungal infection...


----------



## John Boy (Nov 22, 2011)

Well, I've got 2 of them! So...just make me an offer!


----------



## SlipperFan (Nov 22, 2011)

Justin said:


> Hi Rick,
> 
> Baskets won't work for me as I am indoors; however, I am a full convert to your low-k philosophy.
> 
> Since I started cutting my MSU fert with calcium nitrate and epsom salts (I know you use a different magnesium form), my plants have exploded with vigorous, stiff, healthy green growth. And no major resurgence of bacterial or fungal infection...


How long have you been on that regimen, Justin?


----------



## NYEric (Nov 23, 2011)

Ha! I just went over this thread and saw I missed roberts post of the albinos! Very nice. :drool:


----------



## dodidoki (Nov 23, 2011)

John Boy said:


> Well, I've got 2 of them! So...just make me an offer!
> 
> Dear John!
> You forgot to mention that this plant arrived at you from my collection!!!!oke:


----------



## tenman (Apr 26, 2012)

A roth album - let's see, the first kolo albums went for around $6K, so I'm guessing at least double that. Then again, it would depend on whether it was a seedling grown up and bloomed (then there would be a premium on others of the same cross, and the one in question qwould be less valuable, but still probably $6K-$10K) or a collected plant (in which case, only one of a kind, maybe $50K - IIRC, the first - and only - yellow phrag besseae went fo around that, or a bit more).


----------

