# Phragmipedium Zapatilla de la Virgen



## Djthomp28 (Mar 15, 2021)

Only two flowers this year. The third bud blasted early on. I think I accidentally sprayed it with alcohol trying to spray a plant behind this one. Oh well there is always next year.

Just to check my logic with this cross. This is Phrag humboldtii x warszewiczianum. Phrag Stairway to Heaven wallisii x humboldtii. Since wallisii is a synonym for warszewiczianum, Stairway to Heaven and Zapatilla de la Virgen are essentially the same, correct?


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## Paphluvr (Mar 15, 2021)

Very nice, I've never tried growing any of the long-petaled varieties of Phrags. Sorry, can't help you on the naming convention.


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## NYEric (Mar 15, 2021)

Green. I don't know.


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## tomkalina (Mar 15, 2021)

If the species are synonymous, the 2006 registration of Phrag. Stairway to Heaven would give it priority since Phrag. Zapatilla de la Virgen wasn''t registered until 2019.


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## abax (Mar 15, 2021)

Lovely graceful presentation...and it ain't all green Eric!


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## sergeharvey (Mar 16, 2021)

tomkalina said:


> If the species are synonymous, the 2006 registration of Phrag. Stairway to Heaven would give it priority since Phrag. Zapatilla de la Virgen wasn''t registered until 2019.


I would agree with that.


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## Djthomp28 (Mar 16, 2021)

Thanks! I appreciate the explanation. Kew lists wallisii as a syn. for warszewiczianum. hmm.


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## paph_fan (Aug 29, 2022)

I just checked AOS.org. This cross is real and registered. And was awarded this year AM/AOS 80pts. by St Louis judging center.


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## FrankRC (Aug 29, 2022)

Djthomp28 said:


> Thanks! I appreciate the explanation. Kew lists wallisii as a syn. for warszewiczianum.


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## FrankRC (Aug 29, 2022)

The correct name is Stairway to Heaven. We need to unravel some of these hybrid names as there are many, many duplicates and triplicates.


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## Ray (Aug 30, 2022)

FrankRC said:


> The correct name is Stairway to Heaven. We need to unravel some of these hybrid names as there are many, many duplicates and triplicates.


Who is “we”? The RHS registrar appears to be happy leaving the “mistakes” alone.


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## FrankRC (Aug 30, 2022)

Ray said:


> Who is “we”? The RHS registrar appears to be happy leaving the “mistakes” alone.


We are those of us in the Phragmipedium community that want to understand what we have and what a name means. 

Of course this would not apply to everyone, and anyone who wants to keep different names on the same hybrid is welcome to do so, as is anyone who wants to continue to sell the same hybrid under different names.


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## Ray (Aug 30, 2022)

I'm all for clearing out the messes made by misidentification, synonyms, etc., but remember that what is considered a synonym today, might not be tomorrow!


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## NYEric (Aug 31, 2022)

Same problem with Phrag. Mem. Ann Stuckey and Phrag. Polar Shift, It's mostly a matter of timing.


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## abax (Aug 31, 2022)

Eric dear, please explain "matter of timing".


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## FrankRC (Sep 1, 2022)

Ray said:


> I'm all for clearing out the messes made by misidentification, synonyms, etc., but remember that what is considered a synonym today, might not be tomorrow!


Science is not static. Perhaps one day someone will prove me wrong using the same science I applied to the checklist of species. I am on the record in numerous places that as our knowledge expands, our understanding of the species concept and how we apply that to the genus must also expand. In 20, 30, 50 years I hope we have not only more actual species in the genus (such as kovachii, besseae and cabrejosii) but more access (assuming we don't wipe everything out) to the habitats so we can test and verify our assumptions and propositions. That being said, there does appear to be agreement that certain species are synonyms of others and that is not likely to change. Those names include ecuadorense, czerwiakowianum, reticulatum, kaieteurum and unpublished names such as amazonica. The last three publications on the genus (Cribb, Braem, and myself) agree on more than it might seem at first blush and that each of these names are synonyms of others is not in doubt at this time. 

For those of us in the Phragmipedium community that want to understand the name on the tag in the pot, peeling back the layers is important to us. For example, notwithstanding agreement in all three of the aforementioned deep dives into the genus that ecudorense is not a species (it never was and I explain in detail why) there are still commercial growers pushing "fantastic, wow, special" breeding lines on the Phragmipedium community based on ecuadorense. Not only is this wrong, it leads to a profusion of additional hybrid names that serve no purpose other than to confuse and generate plant sales. There is a reason so many hybrids look alike, some hybrids are indistinguishable from species, and multiple names apply to the same plants. The registry contains numerous errors, which I am sure will be corrected eventually. Until that time groups such as this serve an important function in helping understand not only the recent profusion of names, but how to grow our plants.

Always happy to help at anytime, lets keep it focused on the plants and civil.

I am waiting for one of my Phrag. vitattum to put up a spike. I might be here looking for pollen or pod parents to get some hybrids going. It is a ***** to grow so any flower is priceless.

Best,

Frank
​


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## Phrag-Plus (Sep 4, 2022)

Djthomp28 said:


> Only two flowers this year. The third bud blasted early on. I think I accidentally sprayed it with alcohol trying to spray a plant behind this one. Oh well there is always next year.
> 
> Just to check my logic with this cross. This is Phrag humboldtii x warszewiczianum. Phrag Stairway to Heaven wallisii x humboldtii. Since wallisii is a synonym for warszewiczianum, Stairway to Heaven and Zapatilla de la Virgen are essentially the same, correct?
> 
> View attachment 26248



In hybridization it is well known that the pod parent is transmitting more characters than pollen parent to the progeny. 
So it is not a mistake to register a reverse cross hybrid… It's just a matter of perspective… 

In hybridization both crosses genetic potential can be used in different ways to get the best out of it in a F2... 

I’m agreeing with you that the registry is containing some errors in the Phragmipediums sections… 
The register trusting the good will of those who register their hybrids not their knowledge…

And I’m agreeing it is very important to keep records of the parentage and to know the origin of our plants. That especially if you are doing hybridization…

Regards
Jean-Pierre


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## Phrag-Plus (Sep 4, 2022)

FrankRC said:


> Science is not static. Perhaps one day someone will prove me wrong using the same science I applied to the checklist of species. I am on the record in numerous places that as our knowledge expands, our understanding of the species concept and how we apply that to the genus must also expand. In 20, 30, 50 years I hope we have not only more actual species in the genus (such as kovachii, besseae and cabrejosii) but more access (assuming we don't wipe everything out) to the habitats so we can test and verify our assumptions and propositions. That being said, there does appear to be agreement that certain species are synonyms of others and that is not likely to change. Those names include ecuadorense, czerwiakowianum, reticulatum, kaieteurum and unpublished names such as amazonica. The last three publications on the genus (Cribb, Braem, and myself) agree on more than it might seem at first blush and that each of these names are synonyms of others is not in doubt at this time.
> 
> For those of us in the Phragmipedium community that want to understand the name on the tag in the pot, peeling back the layers is important to us. For example, notwithstanding agreement in all three of the aforementioned deep dives into the genus that ecudorense is not a species (it never was and I explain in detail why) there are still commercial growers pushing "fantastic, wow, special" breeding lines on the Phragmipedium community based on ecuadorense. Not only is this wrong, it leads to a profusion of additional hybrid names that serve no purpose other than to confuse and generate plant sales. There is a reason so many hybrids look alike, some hybrids are indistinguishable from species, and multiple names apply to the same plants. The registry contains numerous errors, which I am sure will be corrected eventually. Until that time groups such as this serve an important function in helping understand not only the recent profusion of names, but how to grow our plants.
> 
> ...




I do agreeing too that the science is not something static. As far as we can go back in the past, the Phragmipediums taxonomy has been changed many times according to the knowledge of the time... And it seems that taxonomist were closer to the horticulture world in the past too…

Now the broad species concept proposed by botanists is very interesting for the taxonomist in me. But at the same time as a breeder it is reductive and insufficiently detailed for the present horticultural needs.

When using a kaieteurum I the past we all knew that we were working with a miniature from the Platypetalum.

The same thing for pearcei and ecuadorense they look different and that difference is kept in propagation and breeding.

And when using hincksianum, you are expected red / rose coloration.

I do agree it can turn out a bit confusing for the Phragmipediums community htese days.

But I’m very glad to have my own made collection it is easier to understand where I’m going through…

Like Frank, I’m keeping my mind open and wanted to help in some way… 
It's always interesting to be able to share different visions and opinions...

PS: congratulation for the vittatum I can't wait to see them in bloom... 

Regards
Jean-Pierre


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