# Phrag. besseae: Differences between wild types?



## Vox (Jan 18, 2020)

Two years ago I got my first pure besseae, and after some difficulties (not enough watering…) now it’s growing okay. I always was a fan of this little beauty, and now I’m thinking of getting more of them. I know that there are “common” besseae to be purchased, and also line breeding types, like those Popow is selling here.

But on the other hand there seem to be wild forms, that might differ from the commonly sold besseae: Ecuagenera is selling four different forms that seem to be wild types from different locations (Limon, Chiguinda, Guarumales, Amazonas). There a pictures on their website, but honestly I can’t see the concrete differences of these types. By the way, that besseae on my windowsill is such an „Amazonas“. It didn’t flower till now.

Could anyone please say something about the specifications of these Ecuagenera types? In this forum there are older threads dealing with a Peruvian besseae. Is this Peru besseae identical with one of those Ecuagenera-besseae?

I'm simply not sure what I should look for. I could imagine that wild types for me are more interesting than "common" besseae. Thanks for opinions!

Thanks and sorry for my bad English. I’m working on it.
Greetings, Volker


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## tenman (Jan 21, 2020)

AFAIK, there are only two recognized varieties other than the type form: dalessandroi and flavum, and I'm not entirely certain of the formal status of the yellow, it may be forma, etc, since it's only a difference in color. There are, of course, different shades of color from a deeper red through bright orange and on to pale peach, but those are not considered 'varieties' in the formal sense.


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## NYEric (Jan 30, 2020)

Color (flavum) is not a form. There are definitely differences in the forms. The original collected type from Peru has nicest shape and good color but limited flowers and does not branch. P. besseae dalessandroi was collected in Ecuador by Denis and has drooping lateral sepals and has a more orangey color, but it branches freely, holds multiple blooms per spike, and has the yellow colorburst in the center.
The Chiguinda and Guarumales are similar, the flowers are poorly shaped and smaller than the first 2 types, but the plants branch freely, hold multiple blooms per spike and are darker (more red) than v. dalessandroi.
I don't have experience with type from Limon.


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## tomkalina (Jan 30, 2020)

Phrag. besseae fma flavum Braem is a form (“fma”) according to Braem.


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## tomkalina (Jan 30, 2020)

.....and Cribb.


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## Stone (Jan 30, 2020)

NYEric said:


> Color (flavum) is not a form. There are definitely differences in the forms. The original collected type from Peru has nicest shape and good color but limited flowers and does not branch. P. besseae dalessandroi was collected in Ecuador by Denis and has drooping lateral sepals and has a more orangey color, but it branches freely, holds multiple blooms per spike, and has the yellow colorburst in the center.
> The Chiguinda and Guarumales are similar, the flowers are poorly shaped and smaller than the first 2 types, but the plants branch freely, hold multiple blooms per spike and are darker (more red) than v. dalessandroi.
> I don't have experience with type from Limon.


Colour is ''form'' not variety. It cannot be anything else.


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## ORG (Jan 31, 2020)

Phrag. besseae forma flava is an accepted classification. It is not known how many besseae flava were found in the past. It was told only one plant. but I don't trust it.
When you are interested in the different local races, then look to my book About the genus. There I showed a lot of Pictures of plants of the different regions, but also mixtures.
Here one plant cultivated in Germany by Franz Glanz. I had around 12 inflorescences


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## NYEric (Jan 31, 2020)

Olaf, Ask Franz where he got it. I still believe all flavums come from the sport Tom Kalina grew from Popow.


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## BrucherT (Jan 31, 2020)

ORG said:


> Phrag. besseae forma flava is an accepted classification. It is not known how many besseae flava were found in the past. It was told only one plant. but I don't trust it.
> When you are interested in the different local races, then look to my book About the genus. There I showed a lot of Pictures of plants of the different regions, but also mixtures.
> Here one plant cultivated in Germany by Franz Glanz. I had around 12 inflorescencesView attachment 18106
> View attachment 18107


Holy god.


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## BrucherT (Jan 31, 2020)

tomkalina said:


> Phrag. besseae fma flavum Braem is a form (“fma”) according to Braem.


Hey Tom, what light can you shed on the yellow form? You have quite the story....


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## tomkalina (Jan 31, 2020)

The only additional light worth shedding is that the correct name of the yellow form is Phrag. besseae fma flavum Braem, not "flava" because the Genus epithet ends in M (masculine) not A (feminine). It would be called forma flava if it was a Cattleya,Miltonia, etc.


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## tomkalina (Jan 31, 2020)

ORG said:


> Phrag. besseae forma flava is an accepted classification. It is not known how many besseae flava were found in the past. It was told only one plant. but I don't trust it.
> When you are interested in the different local races, then look to my book About the genus. There I showed a lot of Pictures of plants of the different regions, but also mixtures.
> Here one plant cultivated in Germany by Franz Glanz. I had around 12 inflorescencesView attachment 18106
> View attachment 18107


Good book, Olaf. I wish it was published in English instead of German.


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## richgarrison (Feb 1, 2020)

tomkalina said:


> Good book, Olaf. I wish it was published in English instead of German.



reminds me of a conversation i had with Olaf at the paph forum a few years ago, where he had a few copies of the book. He looked at me with a smile and said, it has a lot of nice pictures.  

I truly wish i spent more time staying up on my german from college...


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## NYEric (Feb 3, 2020)

I have the German book on South American Lady Slippers by Olaf. I should start the translation!!!


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## Vox (Feb 3, 2020)

Are you talking about Olaf Gruß, _Lateinamerikanische Frauenschuhe_, Ruhmannsfelden 2014? It seems to be completely sold out by all common providers... :-(


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## NYEric (Feb 4, 2020)

Yes. I spoke to my GF today about it. Her German is decent so we will look into it.


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## richgarrison (Feb 4, 2020)

but then i need a copy of that book seems like it's value is already skyrocketing based on your post


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## Vox (Feb 5, 2020)

NYEric said:


> Yes. I spoke to my GF today about it. Her German is decent so we will look into it.



That's a nice project. If you need any help - my English might be quite bad, but my German definitely is better... ;-I


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## NYEric (Feb 5, 2020)

Hahah. You can look at mine in NYC.


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## ORG (Feb 6, 2020)

For persons, who did not Need all the Pictures, my Editor produced my smaller book About the genus some monthes ago. Around 120 pages with nearly 300 Pictures.
Perhaps it would be interesting to produce a english Version of my first book, ut it is difficult to find an Editor for. 

Olaf






Best greetings

Olaf


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## richgarrison (Feb 6, 2020)

Personally, i'd love to have your content in both a hard copy as well as a digital copy. Merging my digital journal with digital content for reference has always been a dream of mine... it's certainly very possible with today's technology, and ridiculous (at least to me) that we don't have a platform that makes it possible.... 

Think apple or amazon music where you can buy a track... we'd buy articles as they are available, updates to books with recent changes and discoveries... 

Any investors with deep pockets listening?...


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## ORG (Feb 7, 2020)

Would be interesting. Perhaps in the future!!


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## NYEric (Feb 7, 2020)

Hi Olaf!


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## Vox (Feb 8, 2020)

Great Photos! Thanks Olaf Gruß for showing this. Still try to find an antiquarian copy of the long version, but it's difficult. Threads like this probably won't lower the prices...

By the way, this Peru-Version from 1985 is extremely nice. And I shall call Franz Glanz if he has this 'Top Wössen 4n' for sale.


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## Chaunie (Feb 9, 2020)

Olaf, have you considered Timber Press? I don't know anything about book publishing, only that Mary Gerritsen and Ron Parsons have their books published there. It would be wonderful if your book was available again and in an English language version.


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## ORG (Feb 10, 2020)

Dear Chaunie, meanwhile also 2 other books About the genus were published, also when they don't include so many Pictures. Please wait another orchidfriend will publish soon another book about the genus with many habitatpictures. 
I am working just this time for a book about Paphiopedilum, also with a lot of Pictures. Perhaps the first part will be published this year, but also (for you perhaps sadly in german). Another book About Phalaenopsis shall be published soon in english and chinese. It is redy for print. The last contro was made and now it must be produced. 
Good luck Vox for getting an antiquarian copy. It is very difficult. Most of the people 'loved' my book. Perhaps we will find a possibility for electronic Publishing. Best greetings from the rainy and stormy Germany


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## Vox (Feb 10, 2020)

ORG said:


> Good luck Vox for getting an antiquarian copy. It is very difficult. Most of the people 'loved' my book.



Yes, seems so. There is not even a small path to it somewhere. 
Interestingly the book is even rare in scientific libraries. After using the Karlsruher Virtueller Katalog I had to realize that it is to be found in German libraries only in the FU Berlin and available for lending.


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## ORG (Feb 11, 2020)

You can get it also from the library of the German Orchid Society!


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## MaxC (Feb 13, 2020)

This is an "Amazonas" I recently got from Ecuagenera. Coloring is nowhere near what I was expecting, more a coral/orange than a red. Was this possibly mislabeled plant or just an atypical Amazonas, any insights?


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## NYEric (Feb 18, 2020)

Hi Max, I am unable to get into STF via my email. The color is typical besseae, remember the color lies in the fine hairs on the surface, not the back ground. A deep red besseae is rare and you will find a lot of the redder hybrids have a purple parent like schlimii or fischeri in them. Nice meeting you.


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## MaxC (Feb 18, 2020)

Thank you. Eric, are there also some besseae with pink coloring? I thought I saw an older post mentioning a pink besseae.

Vox, do you have a picture of your flowering Amazonas?


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## Vox (Feb 19, 2020)

MaxC said:


> Vox, do you have a picture of your flowering Amazonas?



Sorry Max, till now it didn't flower for me. Good to have your photos. If my besseae Amazonas will flower, we might compare to watch for continuities of this form.

I'm wondering if these local forms offered by Ecuagenera are from seeds or if they are divisions. In last case they would be more single clones then local or regional types.


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## Silverwhisp (Feb 19, 2020)

Vox said:


> Sorry Max, till now it didn't flower for me. Good to have your photos. If my besseae Amazonas will flower, we might compare to watch for continuities of this form.
> 
> I'm wondering if these local forms offered by Ecuagenera are from seeds or if they are divisions. In last case they would be more single clones then local or regional types.



Vox and Max,

I’ve got a besseae ‘Amazonas’ from Ecuagenera as well; just biding my time until it decides to bloom. Will post photos, whenever that is!


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## NYEric (Feb 21, 2020)

I have seen red, orange, and yellow besseae, never pink. It's good to get the different varieties because they have different strengths, color, branching, holding multiple blooms, etc.


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