# Paphiopedilum Saint Swithin X hangianum



## ORG (Nov 12, 2010)

Here the attractive cross between *Paph. Saint Swithin* and *Paph. hangianum *the *Paphiopedilum Palace Harmonie*.

















Best greetings

Olaf


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## NYEric (Nov 12, 2010)

Terrible! Send it to me right away. BTW, I'm composing a nasty-gram to US fishery and Wildlife today about their archaic CITES interpretation.

It looks like a Super Gloria Naugle!


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## Darin (Nov 12, 2010)

That is awesome Olaf. I love the colours on this one. (and I typically dont like the multiflorals)


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## Shiva (Nov 12, 2010)

Stunning beauty. :drool::drool::drool: So that's one for NYEric and one more for me.


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## Leo Schordje (Nov 12, 2010)

Beautiful, is it a more rapid grower due to the use of St. Swithin? Or is it as slow growing as (rothschildianum x hangianum) ?

The (Parvisepalum group x Corypetalum group) hybrids are lovely when you get a good one, but often they are rather slow growing and have a high percentage of mis-shapen flowers. 

Have you noticed which multi-floral parent gives easier growing results?


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## Candace (Nov 12, 2010)

Now that is one HOT cross.


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## ORG (Nov 12, 2010)

This hybrid grows better and flowers easier then the cross with _Paph. rothschildianum_, *Paph. Alexej.*
Olaf


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## likespaphs (Nov 12, 2010)

does it carry any of the hangianum fragrance?


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## Kavanaru (Nov 12, 2010)

nice! and interesting to see this clon, with much better petals (and pouch) than all other pictures of this cross I have seen before..


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## tenman (Nov 12, 2010)

Fantastic! Me want!!!!!


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## Brian Monk (Nov 12, 2010)

I'm with ERic. I'll take two. I would love to photograph this baby.


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## Ernie (Nov 12, 2010)

WOW! 

Oops. I think I just self-pollinated.


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## Potterychef (Nov 12, 2010)

Stunning!


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## smartie2000 (Nov 12, 2010)

wow that is stunning...

The flower is very big right?


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## e-spice (Nov 12, 2010)

Absolutely amazing!

e-spice


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## Justin (Nov 12, 2010)

awesome!!!!


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## emydura (Nov 12, 2010)

Amazing color. Good shape as well.

David


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## mormodes (Nov 12, 2010)

NYEric said:


> BTW, I'm composing a nasty-gram to US fishery and Wildlife today about their archaic CITES interpretation.



Me too. I wonder why the USFWS interpretation can't be challenged as restriction of trade under NAFTA. Either by the US vendors being restricted from trading in the Canadian legal orchids or the Canadians being locked out of the lucrative US market by the US's atypical interpretation. Oh well.


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## Gcroz (Nov 12, 2010)

Wow... I'll be adding this to my wish list!!!


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## wojtek (Nov 12, 2010)

Gorgeous !!!


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## Brabantia (Nov 12, 2010)

Wonderful hybrid!


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## Darin (Nov 12, 2010)

Ernie said:


> WOW!
> 
> Oops. I think I just self-pollinated.





EWWWWWWW..... You arent supposed to tell everyone when that happens oke:


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Nov 12, 2010)

That sure is a beauty. Thanks for taking the time to share it with us.


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## goldenrose (Nov 12, 2010)

:clap: Much better than I expected!


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## rob (Nov 12, 2010)

I hear it is a slow grower


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## SlipperFan (Nov 12, 2010)

That is just wild and fantastic! Nice photos, also, Olaf.


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## SlipperKing (Nov 12, 2010)

That is amazing. I really like the pouch shape and the color saturation.


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## Bolero (Nov 12, 2010)

Where can I get these? Amazing!


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## John M (Nov 12, 2010)

Wow! That is the most outstaning hybrid that I've seen in a long time. Thanks for posting this Olaf!



mormodes said:


> Me too. I wonder why the USFWS interpretation can't be challenged as restriction of trade under NAFTA. Either by the US vendors being restricted from trading in the Canadian legal orchids or the Canadians being locked out of the lucrative US market by the US's atypical interpretation. Oh well.



Good point! I wouldn't be surprised if a challenge could be filed with Nafta against the US interpretation of CITES as it relates to restricting trade of hangianum and it's hybrids from Canada; but, it probably will never be done because our hobby/industry just isn't important enough for the Canadian government to bother with our issues. Plus, who in the private sector will take on this cause and pay for all the legal wrangling? I certainly can't afford to do that....and I will have hangianum seedlings to sell in a couple years. I sure would love it if the US market was open to me. There's only 34 million people in Canada. There's 10 times that many people in the USA.


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## paphioboy (Nov 12, 2010)

Holy cow... This is one awesome hybrid...  The owner is one very lucky guy (or gal)..


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## Kevin (Nov 12, 2010)

Awesome! I love it!! :clap::clap::drool::drool:



Ernie said:


> WOW!
> 
> Oops. I think I just self-pollinated.



:rollhappy::rollhappy::rollhappy::rollhappy:


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## Kevin (Nov 12, 2010)

mormodes said:


> Me too. I wonder why the USFWS interpretation can't be challenged as restriction of trade under NAFTA. Either by the US vendors being restricted from trading in the Canadian legal orchids or the Canadians being locked out of the lucrative US market by the US's atypical interpretation. Oh well.



CITES has nothing to do with NAFTA. I'm sure other neighbouring countries have the same problem. Each country interprets the rules differently, and has nothing to do with trade. Don't even get started with NAFTA - the U.S. will only think it is 'fair' when it gets it's way, so if NAFTA was involved, Cananda would get the short end of the stick, so I say just let it be.


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## ORG (Nov 13, 2010)

It would be interesting, how there were the experiences of Holger Perner in importation flasks and or seedlings to USA, especielly products of Paph. hangianum.
Paph. hangianum was found in Vietnam and also found in China (described as Paph. singchii).
When China gives a CITES for exporting flasks and seedlings of this species and the hybrids also then there would be no problem in the future when USA accept these papers.

But there are also (legal) plants of hangianum in USA which were sold at the WOC in Miami. Perhaps somebbody has made so also this hybrid.

Best greetings

Olaf


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## Wendy (Nov 13, 2010)

wow, that is spectacular! I need to find one. :drool:


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## NYEric (Nov 14, 2010)

ORG said:


> But there are also (legal) plants of hangianum in USA which were sold at the WOC in Miami.



Really!? :ninja:


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## likespaphs (Nov 15, 2010)

i heard the view was that if the plants were being grown by individuals and not being sold, they will not be pursued. if they were in the hands of a vendor, though, they would be prosecuted. 
THIS IS HEARSAY. I DON'T KNOW FOR SURE.


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## Kavanaru (Nov 15, 2010)

ok, but here is where I have kind of a retoric question... how come that "the system" let these "legal" plants be brought into the USA and be sold at the WOC in Miami, but then they are still considered under ilegal status? Isn't it a bit sick?


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## Paph_LdyMacBeth (Nov 15, 2010)

Don't know how I missed this. Its awesome!


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## toddybear (Nov 15, 2010)

Omg!


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## tenman (Nov 15, 2010)

Kavanaru said:


> ok, but here is where I have kind of a retoric question... how come that "the system" let these "legal" plants be brought into the USA and be sold at the WOC in Miami, but then they are still considered under ilegal status? Isn't it a bit sick?



Are you implying that logic has any place in the behavior of bureaucrats? You may need help, because such an assertion is dangerously close to psychosis.

:rollhappy:


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 15, 2010)

Ummm....those hangianum plants were apparently sold openly...but that doesn't necessarily make them legal. Unfortunately, to the best of my knowledge, hangianum and its progeny are still 100% illegal in the USA. On the other hand, who knows what percentage of "emersonii" hybrids sold in the US are actually from emersonii? I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of the "emersonii" hybrids sold in the US now are actually hangianum crosses....especially those ubiquitous Taiwanese crosses with the yellow tags.


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## likespaphs (Nov 15, 2010)

Kavanaru said:


> ok, but here is where I have kind of a retoric question... how come that "the system" let these "legal" plants be brought into the USA and be sold at the WOC in Miami, but then they are still considered under ilegal status? Isn't it a bit sick?



i think it was something about one department enforcing the law and a different one approving the paperwork, or something.


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## Kavanaru (Nov 16, 2010)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> Ummm....those hangianum plants were apparently sold openly...but that doesn't necessarily make them legal. Unfortunately, to the best of my knowledge, hangianum and its progeny are still 100% illegal in the USA. On the other hand, who knows what percentage of "emersonii" hybrids sold in the US are actually from emersonii? I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of the "emersonii" hybrids sold in the US now are actually hangianum crosses....especially those ubiquitous Taiwanese crosses with the yellow tags.



Eric, if the paperwork to bring the plants in was approved at the custom, the plants are accepted as legal... They at the customs cannot say "Oops! We did not know about them being not legal and that's why we approved them!" Therefore the plants sold at WOC were accepted as legal, and anybody with a good lawyer could win a case like that!


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## Leo Schordje (Nov 16, 2010)

Olaf, the American legal system was nicely described by Franz Kafka, in "Vor dem Gesetz" und "Der Prozess", or for those who don't drink "Bier", "Before the Law" and "The Trial". :evil:

By the way, what USFW service does when seizing orchid plants and arresting importers has been described many times on this site, accurately and in depth, but few bother to take notice and simply bark up the wrong trees about the issue. The *USFWS does not enforce CITES*, they enforce *the LACEY ACT*. :viking: Period, FULL STOP. So stop jabbering about CITES, that is not the law that USFWS enforces. Use the search function to bring yourselves up to speed, but please quit already going over a non-issue because that is not what USFWS is doing. 

If you want to change things, write or talk with your Congressman about ammending the LACEY ACT, because that is US law that can be changed without re-negociating an international treaty. :fight: The Lacey Act was ammended to cover the basic requirements of CITES, but the Lacey Act existed for 50 years or more before the first CITES Treaty. The Lacy Act covers many facets of requlations around plants and animals. It was originally written to stop the killing of wild birds for the feather trade nearly a century ago. CITES is a small part of what it covers, CITES could disappear tomorrow and that would not change a thing as far as the USFWS enforcement goes, because they don't enforce CITES, they enforce the LACEY Act. 

You have USDA - APHIS enforcing a set of rules governing the health status and labeling of what crosses the border and separately you have USFWS enforcing the Lacey Act, which is a set of laws outlining what species of plants and animals can cross the border. If the label is compliant to standards, and the health status of the plant or animal is acceptable, then USDA says it can pass their check points, but that does not mean it is acceptable under the Lacey Act. It does sound like a play written by Kafka, but it is US law. The two agencies are doing different things. 

OK, I'm done being grumpy. Lets go back to talking about plants.  Olaf, that is one beautiful hybrid, and I do know there are people working to get legal Paph hangianum here in the USA, and sooner or later this won't be an issue. Don't forget folks, the rescue center that recieve confiscated plants can release plant parts that were grown here in the USA to private citizens. The dozen or so rescue centers have been getting seized hangianums for 20+ years now, sooner or later enough divisions, pollen and seed will have been legally released in the US so that this issue will become moot. 

Back to my 'Bier' :evil:


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## JeanLux (Nov 16, 2010)

Wow Leo, this is a 'great' post, thanks for these clarifications (fortunately I do not have to care about these US law ambiguities; but IMO those do exist everywhere)!!!!

Maybe we should have a special Thread/sub-forum for discussing the international problems of CITES and similar!!!!

Jean


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## ORG (Nov 16, 2010)

Dear Leo,
many thanks for your words. For the europeans it is really very strange

Best greetings

Olaf


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## Kavanaru (Nov 16, 2010)

Dear Leo,

indeed a very interesting explanation of how the USAmerican System works and its ambiguities... As Olaf said, for non-USAemericans it sounds very strange... now a bit exagerated from my side, but it sounds like if I would bring 20 Kgs Cocaine into the USA but have all papers and labels correct (I am sure I could get some sort of Phytosanitary papers and documents stating that it was obtained from organic pure Coca plants in culture and not theatened or something like that from some of the friends of the president of my country of origin:evil Then havingsomeone at the customs sayingthat everything is fine and I can bring my stuff "legally" into the USA (technically seen, it is legally entered!), but then having another guvernamental entity hunting me because my stuff is not legal... 

For me the ambiguity, lies on the fact (and here I must disagree with your point of view) that even though both entities deal with "two different laws", they are dealing in this case with exactly the same problem: Legality of Orchids in the USA... therefore it sounds very weird that one side of the law says "It is ok, everything according to *my* law" and then another one says "STOP! ILLEGAL, according to my law"... keeping in mind that both are part of the same state, well.. ambiguous laws...


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## NYEric (Nov 16, 2010)

I was told that the paperwork was not valid. I know there was an individual who picked up all the hang seedlings. The flasks were still available when I got to the vendor but i don't do flasks so I wasn't interested.


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## Leo Schordje (Nov 16, 2010)

Another point of clarification, with the orchids, or cycads or any other plant where sale of the plant is restricted; the plant itself is NOT illegal, it is whether or not its importation was illegal. Should someone off handedly say; "That hangianum is illegal." the statement is not correct, the statement should be; "That hangianum was imported illegally which makes its sale, or resale an illegal activity." It is the transactions that are regulated, not the plant it's self. If the plant were illegal, then Paph helenae & Paph vietnamense would NEVER have been able to become available. So at least in theory there is a possibility that some hangianum could be distributed legally. So keep these things in mind, because sometime in the future there will be a population of legally imported, or legally released from rescue centers, hangianum that will produce plants with a legal paperwork trail of the import and sale transactions behind them. 

This also explains why the USFWS is mainly focusing on the importers, sellers and resellers of these restricted plants rather than focusing on the hobby grower. It is the transaction that is illegal, rather than the plant.


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## Ernie (Nov 16, 2010)

Leo Schordje said:


> . This also explains why the USFWS is mainly focusing on the importers, sellers and resellers of these restricted plants rather than focusing on the hobby grower. It is the transaction that is illegal, rather than the plant.



Since moving to this neck of the woods, have had some interesting conversations. If the transaction is the shady part, why would judging ever be an issue as so many contend??? Also, during kovachii depositions, deposees were asked if they ever handled the specimen as touching it could be damning.


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## NYEric (Nov 16, 2010)

You need to talk to the local (Fla) friend about the solidity of import paperwork. Apparently foreign local government branches are making and selling paperwork to make money; then the overall goverment agencies are denying that the paperwork is legal!


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## musiclovertony (Nov 17, 2010)

I like!


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## wojtek (Nov 18, 2010)

:clap::drool::smitten::clap::drool::smitten::clap::drool::smitten:


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