# Phrags: pot sit in water or not?



## Noah Arthur (Oct 24, 2019)

I now have 3 phrags here at the Ventura house: a Calurum (Sedenii X longifolium), a Don Wimber (Eric Young X besseae), and an Incan Treasure (kovachii X longifolium), and I've been hearing conflicting info about whether or not to sit their pots in water. At the orchid show last weekend I talked with Harold Koopowitz (really nice guy!) about phrag care, and he said to sit them in shallow saucers of water. A couple people on the phrag Facebook group have also advised me to do that. However, I had yet another good grower tell me not to...

What is the current thinking on this? Should the phrags sit in saucers of water? Or should I just water them from the top frequently?


----------



## monocotman (Oct 25, 2019)

How humid is the air in your growing area? I grow indoors and here sitting the plants in water is definitely a plus as the air can be quite dry, especially in winter. If you have a very humid growing area then I guess it is less necessary,
David


----------



## monocotman (Oct 25, 2019)

Way more important than sitting your phrags in water is the actual quality of the water. To grow them well you do really need high quality water low in dissolved solids. If you have access to rain water then use that exclusively. If you have this resource then growing phrags is pretty easy. They grow way more quickly than paphs,
David


----------



## Ray (Oct 25, 2019)

FWIW, I grow all of my phags in semi-hydroponics and they love it.


----------



## monocotman (Oct 25, 2019)

Agreed. Phrags love it wet. If you are always fussing over your plants and like to water don’t bother sitting them in water. If you're a bit forgetful then do sit them in it,
David


----------



## Leo Schordje (Oct 25, 2019)

I've been growing Phrags since 1990, and I still keep them in trays of water through the entire year. Even Phrags potted in sphagnum are in shallow trays of water. Water in the saucers and trays gets changed every time I water, usually every 5 to 7 days.


----------



## Leo Schordje (Oct 25, 2019)

NOTE: 
While rain water, or RO quality water is ideal. This would be water that is less than 100 ppm total dissolved solids, you can to some degree grow sensitive plants in medium and hard water by keeping them wetter. As media approaches dryness, the salts in the water get concentrated in the remaining water film. If you keep you media moist to wet, you can get away with higher total dissolved solids water. 

My municipal water is 225 ppm total dissolved solids and a total alkalinity of 180 mg/liter as calcium carbonate. This is Lake Michigan sourced water. This is considered medium hardness, not soft, not particularly hard water. This water is fine for species Phrags including kovachii, besseae, xeriphyticum, and majority of the others. Phrag schlimii does well in this water, provided you keep your media moist to wet. Don't dry your Phrags out. 

I knew of a growers with success in medium hard water with no trouble. If you keep your media wet, you should be able to grow with water as hard as 800 ppm total dissolved solids, or somewhere around 600 mg/l total alkalinity as calcium carbonate. But the higher the TDS & Alkalinity, the more critical it is to not let your potting media approach dryness. 

Majority of Phrags, especially the hybrids are surprisingly forgiving.


----------



## mrhappyrotter (Oct 25, 2019)

For the plants you listed, I would recommend allowing them to sit with water in their saucer at all times. Now, as others have pointed out, there are caveats. When you grow this way, you don't want to drown the entire root system, so generally you don't leave the saucer full to the top. And you still need to flush the pot periodically with very pure water to leach out excess nutrients. I think it's also important to keep the plants reasonably well lit and sufficiently warm when growing this way.

I think people who say you shouldn't grow Phrags sitting in water are doing others a disservice because while that may work for them, for the vast majority of Phrags and the vast majority of growers I've ever talked to, wet feet is the way to go.

One thing I will mention is that I've found that there are some Phrags that seem to have issues when grown sitting in water. It's mostly a case by case basis, but it tends to be the long petaled species and their hybrids. They tend to get rot that starts at the base of the leaves, and while increasing airflow and various treatments reduce the incidence, the most reliable way I've found to make them happy long term is to water them when I water the Paphs and empy the saucers after. Unfortunately, I've not found any hard rule here, as I have plenty of caudatum-types and caudatum hybrids that actually prefer to grow with wet feet and have presented no problems with it.


----------



## Linus_Cello (Oct 25, 2019)

Did Harold Koopowitz show you Paph Harold Koopowitz?


----------



## Noah Arthur (Oct 25, 2019)

So it looks like wet feet is the way to go with phrags. 

Is grocery store bottled water pure enough to use as standing water in the saucers? I don’t have access to rainwater most of the year (this is California), and even when we do get rain it’s nasty and smog-laden.


----------



## monocotman (Oct 25, 2019)

If you’re not sure about water quality get yourself one of the cheap salt pens or conductivity meters which give you a rough readout of the levels of dissolved salts.
This makes watering and feeding much less of a guess in the dark,
David


----------



## Linus_Cello (Oct 25, 2019)

Some fish pet stores sell Reverse osmosis or distilled water


----------



## mrhappyrotter (Oct 25, 2019)

A lot of stores in the US sell deionized or reverse osmosis water. Places like Walmart often have the fill your own fountain stations. Might be worthwhile to check around.


----------



## richgarrison (Oct 25, 2019)

97 cents a gallon (ish i've seen it as low as .79$) for distilled water at the grocery store... We many windowsill growers in our society that use that to water their plants...


----------



## abax (Oct 25, 2019)

I grow in a very humid greenhouse and sitting any
of my Phrags in water invariably ends in rotted
roots. I suspect humidity in the growing area
is the deciding factor.


----------



## monocotman (Oct 26, 2019)

I’d reach out to your local orchid groups and see what they do with their phrags. 
David


----------



## NYEric (Oct 28, 2019)

Yes we grow in water; we have about 150 (lying to self). People are concerned about diseases being transmitted through the water. Most Phrags rot from the crown though; just get you media right. we use clay pellets at the bottom and then semi-organic mix (bark, coarse perlite, charcoal) and then a more moisture retaining mix (bark, perlite, sphagnum, grow cubes) on top. The roots grow into the water in the bottom and across the top mix. I will try to post photos later. R.O. system is an investment that paid for itself in 3 weeks.


----------



## Ray (Oct 28, 2019)

richgarrison said:


> 97 cents a gallon (ish i've seen it as low as .79$) for distilled water at the grocery store... We many windowsill growers in our society that use that to water their plants...


Buy an RO system. $0.04-$0.10/gallon is the norm, and there's nothing to lug home from the store!


----------



## Noah Arthur (Oct 29, 2019)

Thanks for helping out, everyone! I've got them sitting in shallow saucers of water, and their potting medium has stayed quite wet. I'll probably cycle them in saucers for a few days, then out for a few days, as Mr. Koopowitz advised. My humidity hovers in the 50s to low 70s.


----------



## bullsie (Oct 29, 2019)

I have a counter top r/o system - thank you soooo very much Ray for this fabulous apparatus - and it has been an absolute essential to my growing orchids.


----------



## Fan Tan Fannie (Oct 29, 2019)

I collect the rain water and store it in the plastic bottles that I saved. It is totally free. I water my phrag often so they don't sit in water. They seem to like it better. When I go travel, they will sit in shallow water.


----------



## Noah Arthur (Nov 20, 2019)

Update on this situation: I tried sitting them in water for awhile, but their medium was constantly soggy wet, and the surface of one grew a coating of mold. So I discontinued sitting them in water and have been instead just watering them frequently. Maybe my humidity is too high for wet feet (hovers between high 50s and low 70s)?


----------



## monocotman (Nov 21, 2019)

My humidity is 65-70% and they do fine sat in water. Being constantly soggy wet is fine for these hybrid phrags. They love it.
David


----------



## richgarrison (Nov 21, 2019)

Noah Arthur said:


> Update on this situation: I tried sitting them in water for awhile, but their medium was constantly soggy wet, and the surface of one grew a coating of mold. So I discontinued sitting them in water and have been instead just watering them frequently. Maybe my humidity is too high for wet feet (hovers between high 50s and low 70s)?



in the spirit of "*what works for you works for you*"  

i stopped sitting mine in water and just water every day... awesome growth and root health... obviously your mix (root environment) and RH-air movement-temps-light (foliage environment) will affect what works as a combination...

i know of others that say "na... i don;t sit my plants in water. i just water them."


----------



## monocotman (Nov 21, 2019)

I'm too lazy to water every day when I gets the results I do with just sitting them in water!
David


----------



## richgarrison (Nov 21, 2019)

monocotman said:


> I'm too lazy to water every day when I gets the results I do with just sitting them in water!
> David



exactly  what works for you works for you... 

watering everyday gets me to look at each plant every day... 

I like being in the greenhouse... almost more than anywhere else


----------



## monocotman (Nov 21, 2019)

Rich,
As I grow indoors I don’t need a reason to go look at my phrags. They are just sitting there! It’s one if the main reasons I grow indoors. I love having the plants next to me. I usually spend 15 mins at the end of the day communing it’s them before going to bed. It puts me in a good mood for the following day,
David


----------



## BrucherT (Nov 21, 2019)

Fan Tan Fannie said:


> I collect the rain water and store it in the plastic bottles that I saved. It is totally free. I water my phrag often so they don't sit in water. They seem to like it better. When I go travel, they will sit in shallow water.




I use RO water with First Ray’s k-lite...every 3rd watering, I flush the pots by soaking for an hour in pure RO up to the rim, then running that pure RO through the pot, then running RO + 0.25 tsp/gallon water through, draining, them setting pot in around half an inch of pure RO. It’s important that they not sit in even a weak fertilizer solution; I was getting brown tips and yellowing when that would happen. Now I have really lush plants with no bad tips and fingers crossed I’m getting some buds (my Phrags are mostly rescue plants from an orchid show, single-growth postbloom weaklings, a couple high-quality besseae seedlings a year or more for from bloom. One P. besseae flavum in LECA.


----------



## richgarrison (Nov 22, 2019)

monocotman said:


> Rich,
> As I grow indoors I don’t need a reason to go look at my phrags. They are just sitting there! It’s one if the main reasons I grow indoors. I love having the plants next to me. I usually spend 15 mins at the end of the day communing it’s them before going to bed. It puts me in a good mood for the following day,
> David



I totally get that... my watering routine is more like a daily checkup... then on my in the house after work i always enter via teh greenhouse and just enjoy looking around... decompressing from the day...


----------



## monocotman (Nov 23, 2019)

It’s a mental support for me as well as helping me unwind. Although I work I am a carer when I get home as my partner had a stroke a few years ago. We get out but not as often as I would like,
David


----------



## Silverwhisp (Nov 23, 2019)

A question for those of you who have your Phrags. sitting in water. 

Once the water In the tray/saucer is gone, or almost gone, how long do you wait to drench the plant again with water? When I try sitting them in water, the plant is still quite heavy when the water is all soaked up. 

Do you wait to water until it’s as light as it would be under a non-tray scheme, i.e., following a standard Phrag. watering plan?


----------



## monocotman (Nov 23, 2019)

If the plant is saturated you can wait a couple of days before adding more water. It probably doesn’t matter that much. 
David


----------



## Silverwhisp (Nov 23, 2019)

Thanks, David. So you add water to the tray itself; not through the pot?


----------



## monocotman (Nov 23, 2019)

No I add it through the pot so that it flushes the pot as well,
David


----------



## Silverwhisp (Nov 23, 2019)

Great. Thank you.


----------



## Reiner Stachel (Nov 23, 2019)

I have three phrags sitting in water and three phrags not sitting in water and if you would ask me which ones do better I would have to say they are performing the same in my opinion it doesn't make any difference


----------



## Silverwhisp (Nov 23, 2019)

Reiner Stachel said:


> I have three phrags sitting in water and three phrags not sitting in water and if you would ask me which ones do better I would have to say they are performing the same in my opinion it doesn't make any difference



Interesting. Are they in the same media mix?


----------



## Reiner Stachel (Nov 24, 2019)

Yes I have them all in 70% orchiata and 30% new Zealand spagnum


----------



## Ray (Nov 24, 2019)

And in your growing conditions, how often do you water? A lot of folks are still hung up on "orchids needing to dry out between waterings" (hogwash), so the gross departure to that of letting a plant stay constantly moist via a tray might be a benefit.

Water is the driving force for growth. To gain 1 kg in mass - something that takes a few weeks for a corn plant, 2-3 years for a phrag, or a lifetime for a tiny pleurothallid, a plant must absorb and process only about 10-11 g of N-P-K fertilizer (95% N) but 180-200 kg of water.


----------



## Reiner Stachel (Nov 24, 2019)

I water them once a week by soaking them in filtered water for ten minutes and give them half strength fertilizer (shultz) every second watering,starting 2 weeks ago I also have them under full spectrum glow lights. One which is a phrag. Geralda is in bloom as we speak


----------

