# Phragmipedium unknown x besseae



## Secundino (Sep 2, 2013)

Got this with the tag 'longifolium x besseae'. I'm pretty sure it isn't. Any guesses?

Young plant, first flowering. Still opening.


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## Susie11 (Sep 2, 2013)

Don't know but it looks pleasant.


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## mrhappyrotter (Sep 2, 2013)

It wouldn't surprise me if it was Hanne Popow (schlimii x besseae). If it is fragrant ... definitely HP.


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## NYEric (Sep 2, 2013)

If it's x besseae it's a Hanne Popow. Yay besseae hybrids!


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## Missgreen (Sep 2, 2013)

Lovely


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## goldenrose (Sep 2, 2013)

doesn't look like a Hanne Popow to me, this one shows no hint of schlimii.
Do you like it? That's what matters most!


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## NYEric (Sep 2, 2013)

goldenrose said:


> doesn't look like a Hanne Popow to me, this one shows no hint of schlimii.


If its a first generation hybrid then it has to be something with a pubescent pouch, fischeri, andreetae,etc... If it's a complex then it's a guessing game.


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## SlipperFan (Sep 2, 2013)

Pretty color, anyway.


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## Secundino (Sep 3, 2013)

I bought this plant last year as_ longifolium x besseae_ with four leaves, now it has 9 leaves and a strong new growth, the leaves are near to 50 cm long. The plant indeed looked like the vigorous _longifolium_, until a thin and greenish flower spike appeared. The spike is reddish-brown now, pubescent with colourless hairs.
The pouch is pubescent, like in i.e. Mem. Dick Clements, which flowered in May. _Besseae_ is pubescent, too. No scent so far. 

I have never seen Phragm. Hanne Popow with this colour. The flower looks tiny, but it has 8cm NS. It 'closed' last night, and it seems it is still growing and 'flapping' to its final form and stance. I'll try to make a new photograph then. 





From this afternoon. Still too much brightness to make good photographs with a little camera, sorry.

Do I like it? Thats a good question. I like to get what a paid for. But I know how easy it is to loose a tag, to mislabel a plant, to think in one word, lets say 'lindleyanum' and write down 'lindenii', and more so if you are writing thirty, forty labels,... Been there. If it turns out to be 'Andean Fire', than I own two plants that are as similar as they can be, so that I'll be the only one at home to distinguish them. It would have been nice to have a Eric Young; but certainly this plant looks prettier than some Eric Youngs out there. I'm not going to complain, of course, but it would be nice to have a name and it would be nice to have something different. I'm new to Phrags, but they like me and I like them. Some cross like Inca Ember or similar, would be fine, or some of the gorgeous _dalessandro x longifolium_ out there.... You see, I'm dreaming. Or maybe it's just the heat...

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me!


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## NYEric (Sep 3, 2013)

Well you can be prety sure it's not an Eric Young, more likely Mem. Dick Clements or Andean Fire. BTW, do you get dalessandroi hybrids there?


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## Secundino (Sep 3, 2013)

If you mean, where I live: no!! Here we get freckled Phalaenopsis, peloric noids, and such stuff florists sell. All things that are interesting for orchidolics we have to order from the big continental nurseries (french, german, dutch). Phrags are kind of _avis rara_; even the big nurseries only have a few of them. For real good ones you must go to UK. And yes, they have _dalessandroi_-hybrids.


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## Dido (Sep 3, 2013)

If you send me your Mail I can send you then peruflora list they will come in 4 weeks to Europe and will send parcel out.


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## Secundino (Sep 3, 2013)

Thanks, I've this list already!


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## NYEric (Sep 3, 2013)

Secundino said:


> If you mean, where I live: no!!.


Oh, par algun razon Yo crei que tu etais en Sudamerica, no Espana. Lo siento.


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## eteson (Sep 3, 2013)

Dido said:


> If you send me your Mail I can send you then peruflora list they will come in 4 weeks to Europe and will send parcel out.



Manolo Arias sells very good plants and he is very honest in business.
Some of the peruflora´s plants are 3-4 times the size you would spect for the price. Highly recommended...
He has some interesting crosses involving besseae var dalessandroi.


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## Secundino (Sep 6, 2013)

*Phragmipedium Andean Fire*






It is, confirmed, lindleyanum x besseae. 6,2 x 8,4 cm; no scent.


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## Secundino (Sep 15, 2013)

Two flowers at one time, the second is slightly bigger than the first one.


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## SlipperFan (Sep 15, 2013)

Lovely!


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## Secundino (Oct 3, 2013)

Third flower.


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## Erythrone (Oct 3, 2013)

Are you sure it is lindleyanum x besseae??


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## Secundino (Oct 3, 2013)

Yes. Why not?


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## Erythrone (Oct 3, 2013)

The shape of the bloom (somewhat too.. round?)... the way the petals are held... The rather light color... It is miles away from the Andean Fire I grow


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## NYEric (Oct 3, 2013)

Phrag. dalessandroi x sargentianum - Grosnez, maybe??


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## Drorchid (Oct 3, 2013)

I agree with Erythrone; when I look at it, I definitely see besseae, sargentianum (or perhaps lindleyanum) and some schlimii in it.

How about (sargentianum x schlimii) x besseae = Phrag. Coral Jewel x besseae = Phrag. Will Ostrander

Unfortunately no pictures on the web :-(

Robert


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## Secundino (Oct 3, 2013)

I got this plant from Elsner Orchideen; if you look at her site, you see a very similar flower. 
But I agree in that this plant looks different compared to some of the Andean Fire you can see in the web, BUT: there are a lot of japanese photographs of Andean Fire with the same characteristics. 
I thought first, it could be Inca Fire, but it is not as consistlently red. Though the temperatures (night always more than 22ºC) might infere in the colour. 
I don't see any _schlimii_ in it, the slender pouch, the opening, the staminode - but you are the experts, I'm new to growing _Phragmipedium_.


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## Dido (Oct 3, 2013)

you should ask here directly what it is and if there could be a mix up or not, she will answer you honestly.


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## Erythrone (Oct 3, 2013)

You are right Secundino... the picture of Andean Fire on the website of Elsner Orchideen looks a lot like your plant

But.. I am pretty sure it is not a real Andean Fire. Let's see what Drorchid think about it:

http://www.elsner-orchideen.de/englisch/start.htm


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## Drorchid (Oct 3, 2013)

I do agree, that Secundino's plant is the same as what they show on their website as "Andean Fire". I am not ruling it out 100% that is what it is, it just looks off to me. For one, it is too light (too pink) for me, especially if you look at the staminodal shield, all the Andean Fire that I have seen (just do a google search) will be darker and more "reddish" colored, and always will have more red hairs on the staminodal shield. This one (and the one they show on their website) is almost all white, with just a few dark pink colored hairs. Even the shape of the staminodal shield is off, on the one that Secundino is showing the shield is more round in shape (compare it to the picture of Erythrone), which could come from it's schlimii background.

Also the background color of Andean Fire tends to be more "yellow" in color (look at Erythrones picture) This one (and the one they show on their website) has more of a "white" background. And finally most Andean Fire, have more of a "wavy" edge to the petals, this one does not have a wavy edge, and the petals seem more "rounded". That is why I believe there is some "schlimii" in the background. A similar cross that has schlimii, sargentianum and besseae in the background is Phrag. Elizabeth Castle.

Robert


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## Erythrone (Oct 3, 2013)

Drorchid said:


> I do agree, that Secundino's plant is the same as what they show on their website as "Andean Fire". I am not ruling it out 100% that is what it is, it just looks off to me. For one, it is too light (too pink) for me, especially if you look at the staminodal shield, all the Andean Tears that I have seen (just do a google search) will be darker and more "reddish" colored, and always will have more red hairs on the staminodal shield. This one (and the one they show on their website) is almost all white, with just a few dark pink colored hairs. Even the shape of the staminodal shield is off, on the one that Secundino is showing the shield is more round in shape (compare it to the picture of Erythrone), which could come from it's schlimii background.
> 
> Also the background color of Andean Tears tends to be more "yellow" in color (look at Erythrones picture) This one (and the one they show on their website) has more of a "white" background. And finally most Andean Tears, have more of a "wavy" edge to the petals, this one does not have a wavy edge, and the petals seem more "rounded". That is why I believe there is some "schlimii" in the background. A similar cross that has schlimii, sargentianum and besseae in the background is Phrag. Elizabeth Castle.
> 
> Robert



You're certainly talking about Andean Fire, not Andean Tears, are'n t you?


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## Drorchid (Oct 3, 2013)

Erythrone said:


> You're certainly talking about Andean Fire, not Andean Tears, are'n t you?



oeps, yes, you are right, I meant Andean Fire...was typing too fast..

made the edits..

Robert


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## Secundino (Oct 3, 2013)

Yes, it looks exactly like the Phrag. Elisabeth Castle posted in 2009 by JeanLux. A mislabelled plant, too. Still will keep the old tag, but it's likely to be changed again. And I'll keep an open eye at the european catalogues - there are not so many options for _Phragmipedium_. 

How big are the flowers of Phrag. Elisabeth Castle? 

Thanks to you both!


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## Erythrone (Oct 3, 2013)

I think Robert is right. Your plant looks a lot like Elisabeth Castle. 

Elisabeth Castle can have a NS of 7 to 10 cm.


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## Secundino (Oct 4, 2013)

Just got answer from Regina Elsner - thanks! - and she is sure that there is no Hanne Popow in this cross - just Andean Fire. 
The actual flower measures 6,0 x 8,0 cm.


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## Dido (Oct 4, 2013)

I think she is a trustable seller, at least she is really resonabel. 
She always told me if she is not sure if the tag is right, so if she think it is, then it should be. 
But I think she bought the flask or young plants somewhere, as she normaly dont breed phrags.


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## Secundino (Oct 4, 2013)

Oh yes, i like buying there just because of being a very trustable and plant-caring seller. Never got a bad plant from her, and if a plant is very little, or to big to send, she tells before.
I've been browsing the www for both plants and parentages. Leaving aside all the flowers-pics that are very improbable of beeing what they claim for, I do see that there seem to be two very close groups of Andean Fire; a more yellowish _and at the same time more wavy type, opposed to a whitish and not so wavy form. 
Elisabth Castle is nearly always whitish, the staminode always is. And the petals are rounder. And ther are indeed some Elisabeth Castle -pics that match my plant (and diiffer from the more rosy-white Elisabeth Castle).
But two main differences between Elisabeth Castle and Andean Fire seem consistent: the pouch is not as inflated as in schlimii-hybrids (to my eye besseae-hybrids have a 'slender' pouch) and my plant has no rosy flowers, it is red with underlying white zones, but no rosé at all. It is very difficult getting the right tone with a photo, for in the morning light the flowers are more red, red-orange, while in the afternoons the bluish red is predominant. 
In any case, it will stay 'Andean Fire' now, the most likely (and simple) cross; with an exclamation mark to remember that it could be something else.
Thanks to all of you!_


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## Secundino (Oct 8, 2013)

Fourth flower opened last night. What ever it is, this one is a keeper!


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## Secundino (Oct 20, 2013)

The fifth flower is opening right now and there will be a sixth - the bud is there! I'm very happy with these Phrags - the new growth is much stronger than that one flowering. I must get more!


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## The Mutant (Oct 20, 2013)

They are quite addictive, aren't they? The second bud is about to open on my Sunset Glow now, they are just so FAST compared to Paphs. 

Yours is a cutie pie.


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## Secundino (Nov 10, 2013)

The sixt and last flower from Phragmipedium Andean Fire. In all, just 4 days without flowers (gap between the fifth and this one) 75 days flowering. 
Yes, Phrags are addictive, and as you look at the new growth, the size of the plant itself will double soon - at an incredible speed comparing to Paphs!:rollhappy:


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## NYEric (Nov 10, 2013)

Lovely but, I still say the color and form are not right to be Andean Fire. 
This is. 


Erythrone said:


>


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## SlipperFan (Nov 10, 2013)

It certainly is not Andean Fire. But it doesn't look like Elizabeth Castle -- all the ones I've seen have a light edge on top of the pouch. But it is something schlimii, I think.


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## AdamD (Nov 10, 2013)

I agree with Eric, too much micropetalum in that pouch for Andean Fire...


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## NYEric (Nov 10, 2013)

Schlimii or fischeri!!


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## abax (Nov 11, 2013)

I say really lovely and definitely a keeper.


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## Erythrone (Nov 11, 2013)

I agree. As I wrote earlier, it is a very nice bloom, but not Andean Fire !


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## Secundino (Nov 11, 2013)

Wubben and Elsner sell these plants with the same name... Andean Fire. Until any better option, I'll keep this name (and the plant, of course, it's growing at high-speed!) But I'll keep DrOrchid's advice in mind and will not rule out it could be another cross. Thanks to you all!


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## eaborne (Nov 11, 2013)

I also agree this has schlimii in the background. A lot of times schlimii primary hybrids have a dividing line through the petals like yours has.


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