# Aerides quinquevulnera v calayana



## SlipperFan (Dec 27, 2012)

When I checked Jay's Internet Orchid Encyclopedia, these flowers looked a lot more like odorata than quinquevulnera. So I googled Aerides quinquevulnera v calayana and a bunch of pictures came up -- some were labelled quinquevulnera v calayana and some were odorata v calayana, but they all looked very similar. Does anyone know for sure which name is correct?


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## wjs2nd (Dec 27, 2012)

I don't know about the name. However, your blooms are beautiful!


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## Hera (Dec 27, 2012)

So pretty. How big is the plant.


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## cnycharles (Dec 27, 2012)

very nice flowers. i'll bet peter o'byrne on the ogd would know; maybe you can post a link to here asking the same question


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## Erythrone (Dec 27, 2012)

Very nice!


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## The Orchid Boy (Dec 27, 2012)

I love the pendant spikes and the way the flowers are held.


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## Roy (Dec 27, 2012)

I have the same question Dot, which name. I have records from a major grower of Aerides from Asia that says its 'odorata', another quality reference I believe says its 'quinquevulnera'. I have a small plant so it looks like a holiday spare time job to come up with an answer. Too hot here to do much else.


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## SlipperFan (Dec 27, 2012)

cnycharles said:


> very nice flowers. i'll bet peter o'byrne on the ogd would know; maybe you can post a link to here asking the same question


He might be unhappy with me, but I can try -- it's a good idea.


Roy said:


> I have the same question Dot, which name. I have records from a major grower of Aerides from Asia that says its 'odorata', another quality reference I believe says its 'quinquevulnera'. I have a small plant so it looks like a holiday spare time job to come up with an answer. Too hot here to do much else.


I'll let you know if I learn anything.

How about sending some of your heat up here and I'll send you some of our cold. :wink:


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## abax (Dec 27, 2012)

I'm no expert, but I do grow several Aerides. It looks like odorata to me...at least it looks like the one I have. My quinque. has a lot more white
in the bloom than pink. Without looking at tags, I can usually tell by the
smell which is which. My quinque. has a much stronger, sweeter smell.


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## rdlsreno (Dec 28, 2012)

I have seen a couple of this species (Aer. odorata var. calayana, or Aer. calayana (new species)) back in the Philippines. One of easiest way to differentiate the two species is the serration on the side of the mid lobe (lip). Aer. odorata has none to few irregular serrations, where as for Aer. quinquevulnera it has well serrated side of the lip (see attached pictures of album type). I hope this help.

Ramon

Aer. odorata var. calayana f. album





Aer. quinquevulnera f. fameri (the true one)


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## Ozpaph (Dec 28, 2012)

lovely plant


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## SlipperFan (Dec 28, 2012)

Thanks, Ramon. That's good info. I'll have to look more carefully at the lip.

I did post on the OGD. We'll see what happens there.


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## SlipperFan (Dec 29, 2012)

With Peter O'Byrne's permission, here is his response to my question:
_
Aerides quinquevulnera is morphologically identical to A. odorata. Many growers and authors, particularly in the Philippines, are resistant to this idea, claiming that A. quinquevulnera differs in having (a) larger flowers, (b) a different scent, (c) different colour flowers.

Items (a) and (b) are false. If you actually measure flowers from a range of specimens (as I have), you discover that the largest flowers are found on plants from Borneo (ie A. odorata), with some Philippine clones coming in a close second. The scent claim doesn't hold true, either. The fragrance is due to 2 chemicals, which are present in different proportions throughout the range of these taxa. One chemical predominates in Malaysian plants, giving them a rather "lemony" smell; the other predominates in Philippine plants, giving them a sweeter scent. Plants from Borneo can smell either "more lemony" or "more sweet", while some clones from Sulawesi have no discernable odour.

Item (c) doesn't stand up to even the slightest inspection. Philippine growers tell you that A. quinquevulnera is a good species because it can be distinguished by the white sepals and petals with a red-purple "blood spot "at the apex. In the next breath they will tell you about various colour forms, including alba forms. I have taken alba flowers of the Philippine A. quinquevulnera and put them next to flowers from a Malaysian alba form of A. odorata. They are identical. The so-called "unique" colour combination of A. quinquevulnera isn't even unique. The scentless A. odoarata plants from Sulawesi that I referred to earlier also have creamy-white flowers with a "blood spot" at the tip of each sepal and petal. So much for colour as a significant difference. 

Since O. odorata is the earlier name, it is the correct one. A. quinquevulnera is a synonym. Icones has already pointed out that "variety calayana" is an unpublished epithet, and therefore has no validity._

Thank-you, Peter!


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## rdlsreno (Dec 29, 2012)

Taxonomist may be splitter or lumper and I respect their opinions. As of the moment, Kew recognize the two species as two different species not synonymous see link.

Aer. odorata http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/namedetail.do?name_id=4130

Aer. quinquevulnera http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/namedetail.do?name_id=4144

Ramon


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## abax (Dec 30, 2012)

Smell is so subjective that I'll have to agree with the info., however, the
two smell different to me. I guess I now have two odoratas.


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## SlipperFan (Dec 31, 2012)

More from Peter O'Byrne:

If we are going to follow horticultural conventions, then I'd say your plant is a (rather nice) hybrid between A. lawrenceae and either A. quinquevulnera or a Philippine form of A. odorata. I have been shown similar plants before by Philippine collectors, who say they occur in the wild. They wanted me to describe them as a new species; I declined. It isn't that I don't believe them; I'm sure they were telling the truth, and that wild populations exist. For me, the issue is a taxonomic one, involving the status of A. odorata, A. quinquevulnera and A. lawrenceae.

In the western part of its range, A. odorata usually has a linear midlobe with entire lateral margins. However, the population in Peninsular Malaysia and Thailand can be divided into northern and southern races .... the northern race is tetrapoid (76 chromosomes) while the southern race is diploid (38 chromosomes) [Ref: Kamemoto & Sagarik, Beautiful Thai Orchids (1975): 11]. The northern race was described by Carr as A. odorata var. bicuspidata, and some plants have a midlobe with erose to toothed lateral margins. So the entire/erose/toothed midlobe margins are not a reliable character for differentiating between species.

Many people (including Ramon) state that A. quinquevulnera has toothed lateral margins to the midlobe. While this is usually true, it is not always the case. In Ames & Quisumbing's New or Noteworthy Philippine Orchids IV (Phil. J. Sci. December 1934), there is a description & photos of A. quinquevulnera Lindl. var. album Williams, based on plants collected in Calayan Island. These specimens have midlobe lateral margins that are entire, or at the most, very slightly uneven, much like the plant in Ramon's photo. This suggests that "var. alba" is likely to be the correct name for "var. calayana". I don't know why this taxon doesn't show up in the Kew Checklist; the absence implies that the name is invalidly published, though it may have been overlooked. From a taxonomic point of view, the Calayan plants merely confirm that there is no specific difference between A. odorata and A. quinquevulnera. 

A. lawrenceae Rchb.f. is taxonomically the most difficult to deal with. Plants from the Philippines typically have a relatively broad midlobe that is folded along the longitudinal axis, and toothed lateral margins. Identical plants occur in South-East Sulawesi. However, some Philippine plants have a narrower, more linear midlobe that is folded and toothed. This brings A. lawrenceae very close to the northern race of A. odorata (Carr's A. odorata var. bicuspidata). To see what I mean, have a look at the Senghas drawing of a Thai specimen (identified as A. lawrenceae) at:

http://orchid.unibas.ch/phpMyHerbar...ceae/Reichenbach_Heinrich_Gustav/specimen.php

Is this plant A. lawrenceae or A. odorata ? 

I would like to maintain A. lawrenceae as a valid taxon, but it is too close to A. odorata to be treated as a distinct species. For the moment, I'm following Holttum and treating it as A. odorata var. lawrenceae, though I recognise that even this distinction may be unsustainable.

So, back to your plant. The Philippine collectors I mentioned wanted me to describe it as a species. The best I could have done would be to describe it as an inter-varietal hybrid (A. odorata var. lawrenceae x A. odorata var. odorata). What would be the point of doing that ? You can go down this path indefinitely, splitting taxa into ever smaller groupings, without adding anything meaningful to our knowledge of orchids. So I declined the offer.


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## abax (Jan 1, 2013)

Very interesting information and I'm grateful for it. I know that my odorata
came from Malaysia, but I have no idea exactly where. I'm guessing Sarawak...maybe. Since I bought the quinque. from the same vendor, I
assume it came from there as well. However, they appear to be quite
different. Now I'm throughly confused. How about you Dot?


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## SlipperFan (Jan 1, 2013)

abax said:


> Very interesting information and I'm grateful for it. I know that my odorata
> came from Malaysia, but I have no idea exactly where. I'm guessing Sarawak...maybe. Since I bought the quinque. from the same vendor, I
> assume it came from there as well. However, they appear to be quite
> different. Now I'm throughly confused. How about you Dot?



Well, I told Peter that this was all very confusing. He responded by saying "You ought to see the results of DNA analysis of Aerides species. It is a truly dreadful confusion."

I will have to figure out what I'll put on the tag. For sure, not Calayana.


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## abax (Jan 2, 2013)

I also have an Aerides I call Hootoo because I can't ever remember how to
spell the name correctly. It looks very different from the former qunique.
and the odorata and also came from Malaysia via Dowery if I recall...also
smells different. I think I'll call them Joan, Alice and Fred now that I know
everyone is confused. What the hell!


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## Roy (Jan 2, 2013)

I've just caught up again with this discussion & I don't think its really clarified anything, maybe confused it more. I think I'll leave mine as labelled, Aer. odorata var calayana. When & if it gets sorted out I'll change the label.


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## Stone (Jan 7, 2013)

Beautiful is what it is..


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