# Cochicine treatment and defects



## PHRAG (Jun 8, 2006)

So I have this 3N bloomer, and the bud just opened. While even I like the ugliest of flowers, this one is a real dog. Big time fangs on the petals and a pouch smaller that the rest of the flower with big teeth on the rim. I am afraid to go near the thing it has so many teeth. 

I have heard that these polyploidy plants can grow out of these things and produce great flowers. However this is the second bloom on the second mature growth. How long does it take for these things to grow out of it?!?!


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## lienluu (Jun 8, 2006)

PHRAG said:


> So I have this 3N bloomer, and the bud just opened. While even I like the ugliest of flowers, this one is a real dog. Big time fangs on the petals and a pouch smaller that the rest of the flower with big teeth on the rim. I am afraid to go near the thing it has so many teeth.
> 
> I have heard that these polyploidy plants can grow out of these things and produce great flowers. However this is the second bloom on the second mature growth. How long does it take for these things to grow out of it?!?!



Do you have a photo of it? I would love to see it!


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## kentuckiense (Jun 8, 2006)

Do you know if that very plant was treated with colchicine? If it was, then that mutation could be permanent. If it's just the product of a 4N x 2N cross, then I have no idea what to tell you.


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## kentuckiense (Jun 8, 2006)

lienluu said:


> Do you have a photo of it? I would love to see it!


I'd like to echo this request.


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## PHRAG (Jun 8, 2006)

Oh yeah, it is a 3N. So I guess it isn't exactly colchicine's fault directly. Taking pics now. Be prepared to gasp in horror!


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## likespaphs (Jun 8, 2006)

i'm drawing in my breath in anticipation of horror...


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## Jmoney (Jun 8, 2006)

I assume it's a phrag?

You hear about these things more with the 4N phrags--ragged petals, ragged pouches, etc. If you look at pictures of the Eric Young 'Rocket Fire' 4N that is frequently used in breeding, you see that its petals aren't smooth at all.

Haven't heard too many of these issues with 3N plants, but then again, 4N x 2N doesn't always produce clean 3N. You are bound to get some aneuploidy here and there, maybe a 5N or who knows what. If the deformity persists after a couple bloomings, it's probably there to stay.


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## kentuckiense (Jun 8, 2006)

Jmoney said:


> I assume it's a phrag?
> 
> You hear about these things more with the 4N phrags--ragged petals, ragged pouches, etc. If you look at pictures of the Eric Young 'Rocket Fire' 4N that is frequently used in breeding, you see that its petals aren't smooth at all.
> 
> Haven't heard too many of these issues with 3N plants, but then again, 4N x 2N doesn't always produce clean 3N. You are bound to get some aneuploidy here and there, maybe a 5N or who knows what. If the deformity persists after a couple bloomings, it's probably there to stay.



And colchicine treatment can also produce 3N. That's why I'm wondering if this plant was from a batch of protocorms that were treated as opposed to the result of a 4N x 2N cross.


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## Jmoney (Jun 8, 2006)

oh absolutely, it could have been a colchicine-exposed cross. most phrags on the market are already the product of 4N x 2N or 4N x 4N though. I guess much of the colchicine-induction is done behind closed doors.


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## kentuckiense (Jun 8, 2006)

Jmoney said:


> oh absolutely, it could have been a colchicine-exposed cross. most phrags on the market are already the product of 4N x 2N or 4N x 4N though. I guess much of the colchicine-induction is done behind closed doors.


Right. I mean, I figure it's probably a 4N x 2N cross because I kind of doubt this plant is straight from a colchicine batch... That means someone had to take the time to do a chromosome squash, etc.


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## PHRAG (Jun 8, 2006)

From deep in the dark recess of evil, striking fear into hearts of its victims, comes FANG! Flesh eating plant of doom!!!









Sadly, this one is a hybrid made with Eric Young 'Rocket Fire'. And this is the third time a growth has bloomed on this plant, so I guess the fangs are here to stay? This is why I am now sorry I bought so many 3N and 4N plants made with Eric Young. I won't buy polyploid plants in the future unless I see them bloom first. And it is getting hard to find any 2N plants any more.


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## kentuckiense (Jun 8, 2006)

Meh, it's not so bad. Still looks pretty to me.


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## PHRAG (Jun 8, 2006)

Well, I did try to capture it's good side.


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## Jmoney (Jun 8, 2006)

bah, that's not so bad 

just to clarify, most of the EY 'Rocket Fire' hybrids are fine. I have a wimber made with that as a parent that has no problem at all. again, you get a higher percentage of ectopic teeth on 4N plants but I hope you're not turned off from the polyploids--the average one is still pretty good and the best ones are jawdroppers. also it's nearly impossible to get 2N phrag hybrids (unless you stick to the primary hybrids) due to chromosome issues.


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## phrag guy (Jun 8, 2006)

It doesn't look that bad. I have a few 3n plants and all have flowered fine. The only thing I don't like about them, is I can't do crosses with them.


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## paphreek (Jun 9, 2006)

Here's an example of a Don Wimber 3N made using Eric Young 'Rocket Fire'





About four or five years ago, it was given the Best Hybrid of Show at the St Paul Winter Carnival and pulled for AOS judging, but not awarded. This blooming is not quite as good, but still nice.


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## Jmoney (Jun 10, 2006)

very smooth color and great shape! the 3N wimbers really are great...


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## lindafrog (Jun 10, 2006)

*cochicine treatment*

What do the leafs look like.? I've grown several flask of different cochicine treated phrags. There is always a variety of plants within each group. Some leafs are big and lush. OThers are smaller and thicker, some even form tubes within the leafs. Perhaps one could tell from leafs if the flower is going to be - shall we say unique. Have other growers had similar experience?
Happy growing from sunny but frost warning Michigan
Lindafrog


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## PHRAG (Jun 10, 2006)

The plant above is big and lush, multiple growths. I am going hang onto it, because I can't bring myself to trade/sell it. But it will always be my "ugly chid". :rollhappy:


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