# pale new leaf



## fibre (Dec 29, 2012)

Some seedlings in the community-pot are showing new pale leaves. My guess is that they are missing some nutrients. But I don't know witch! 










But why don't the neighbours in the pot show the same pale leaves?


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## dodidoki (Dec 29, 2012)

Too much light or lack of N? Or something what is blocking absorbtion of N?


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## Ray (Dec 29, 2012)

Green = chlorophyll

Lack of magnesium?


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## Stone (Dec 29, 2012)

I would say Iron (if its nutrient related) Try a couple of very weak doses of Iron Chelate spray and drench but be careful because it can damage leaves sometimes. (small brown spots) You should see improvement in a week. If its Iron deficiency, you can usually correct if by reducing pH. The best way to do that is by repotting and go easy on the lime!
Why only some plants?...... Well it looks like only the vigorous ones are affected and that would be because they don't have enough Fe to keep up with the expanding leaf. The seedlings not growing much will not show deficiency.
Please keep us updated and let us know what you find out.


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## gonewild (Dec 29, 2012)

I would say... Nitrogen, Magnesium and Iron.


Are the roots healthy?


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## Stone (Dec 29, 2012)

gonewild said:


> I would say... Nitrogen, Magnesium and Iron.
> 
> 
> Are the roots healthy?



Definately not N and probably not Mg. (shows up in the old leaves) More N will make it worse. And to complicate things, too much manganese, copper or zinc can produce Fe deficiency symptoms.
It looks like a classic Fe problem IMO, and a pretty bad case as well.


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## Ozpaph (Dec 29, 2012)

just use a dilute, complete fertiliser a few times over the next 2 weeks and it'll perk up.


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## NYEric (Dec 29, 2012)

What does "complete fertilizer" mean? I'd just add Epsom salts.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Dec 29, 2012)

How about an epsom salt flush, followed by an MSU type fertilizer on the next few waterings?


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## Stone (Dec 29, 2012)

Magnesium deficiency does not show up in the new leaf!! It is relocated from the old leaves to the growing point so the new leaf will always appear greener than older ones. Mg deficiency will see a mottling, paling, reddening, yellow blotching on the OLD leaf. Same with N.


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## gonewild (Dec 29, 2012)

I don't see good color even in the old leaves. Looking at the coarse dry bark I suspect a general nutrient shortage, not just one element.


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## Rick (Dec 29, 2012)

Stone said:


> Magnesium deficiency does not show up in the new leaf!! It is relocated from the old leaves to the growing point so the new leaf will always appear greener than older ones. Mg deficiency will see a mottling, paling, reddening, yellow blotching on the OLD leaf. Same with N.



Frequently I've seen general pale plants green up real fast with nothing more than magnesium supplementation (via Epsom salts). But seeing only individual leaves pale while others green is something unexpected for Mg deficiency. Also Mg and K are highly movable through plant tissues, and can be relocated throughout the plant easily if needed in new leaves.

True "deficiencies" are very hard to produce in orchids, but antagonisms (overdoses of one nutrient blocking uptake of others) are very easy to induce in standard orchid culture.

I would check the TDS of the potting mix and then either replace/repot, or flush the heck of the mix with RO water. I've seen this pattern in compots of my old ways that I fed heavy, and ended up with too much salt buildup from fertilizing and pot ammendments.

I suspect that the root zone is overloaded in virtually any of the major nutrient ions. Depending on the water quality and any mix supplements like lime, alkalinity, Ca, K, Mg could already be threw the roof, and either pH is out of range (high or low) for normal N uptake, Ca could be through the roof blocking normal uptake of Mg, K, Fe, N, or K could be high blocking Ca, Mg, Fe, N, Cu, Mo....

Anyway I'd start from scratch rather than adding more of anything and trying to drive buy slamming on the brakes and the gas pedal at the same time.


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## Rick (Dec 29, 2012)

I had a compot of henryanums that got to looking like this. Wouldn't grow, pale new growth (what little new growth occured).... Maybe for 2 years straight.

So after trying more of everything, I ended up hitting it with a couple doses of a mycorrhizae inoculate. 

For all the plants it did absolutely nothing for, this compot of henry's just came to life. Within weeks turning green and started growing. 

After a few months I spread them out into individual pots. They got slow again (but stayed green). Probably lost 1/2 of them over the next couple of years. Then reduced K came along, they went wild and jumped to blooming size in a year.

Looking up the breeding record, it took 6 years out of flask to get the survivors to blooming size.

In comparison I received another compot of a related batch of henry's a year ago, nice and dark, and already I have a few that are BS (with 2nd growths). No losses.

I'm not advocating mycorrhizae but rather advocating a 'less is better" approach when it comes to orchid culture.


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## abax (Dec 30, 2012)

I agree with Rick; back off the fertilizer and maybe repot in Orchiata. I think I might order some K-Lite if you don't already have some from Ray.
I've never seen that kind of paleness and dark veins in orchids, but I have
seen it in other plants that were lacking iron and/or a virus like tobacco
mosaic virus.


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## Ozpaph (Dec 30, 2012)

NYEric said:


> What does "complete fertilizer" mean? I'd just add Epsom salts.




A fertilizer that is NPK balanced with micro-nutrients, as opposed to Epsom Salts which is a 'punt' that this is magnesium deficiency.


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## keithrs (Dec 30, 2012)

Generally, Mg def. will show up in older leaves first. What I have seen in garden plant(which may not apply here) is that veining is usually a Fe problem. I would also suggest feeding a balanced diet with micros. Also try kelp and a small amount if slow release fert.


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## Rick (Dec 30, 2012)

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18566&highlight=gratrixianum&page=5

Here's some highlights from a gratrixianum I had similar problems with, which went into very fast growth after going into basket.

Very pale new leaves. Although I initially hit it with a bit of supplemental Mg and K, it really didn't improve significantly till after getting the TDS meter, determining that pot EC was very high, and then flushing the pot until getting conductivity back down to about 150-200 uS/cm.

I was still using standard MSU when it went into the basket, but it wasn't long before going low K, and its been getting K-lite for the last year. Both standard MSU and K lite have plenty of Fe. So at least in this case the problem wasn't for lack of Fe being applied, but maybe for lack of Fe getting into the plant.

At this time it has normal green leaves.


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## fibre (Dec 30, 2012)

WOW! I'm impressed by all your answers! I thank you very much!




Stone said:


> Magnesium deficiency does not show up in the new leaf!! It is relocated from the old leaves to the growing point so the new leaf will always appear greener than older ones. *Mg deficiency will see a mottling, paling, reddening, yellow blotching on the OLD leaf. Same with N.*


 
Thanks, that's the information I was looking for! 



Stone said:


> I would say Iron (if its nutrient related) Try a couple of very weak doses of Iron Chelate spray and drench but be careful because it can damage leaves sometimes. (small brown spots) You should see improvement in a week. (...)



Well, I will do this tomorrow in the morning!



Stone said:


> (...) If its Iron deficiency, you can usually correct if by reducing pH. The best way to do that is by repotting and go easy on the lime!
> Why only some plants?...... Well it looks like only the vigorous ones are affected and that would be because they don't have enough Fe to keep up with the expanding leaf. The seedlings not growing much will not show deficiency.
> Please keep us updated and let us know what you find out




I got these seedlings three month ago. It is a cross with P. niveum. All of my niveums are growing very well with lots of limestones in the potting mix. The bark I used is Orchiata. 
As I received them all seemed to be very vigorous but the roots were few and short. Some of them had extraordinary short roots. So maybe these are the now pale-leaved ones.


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## fibre (Dec 30, 2012)

O.k, thanks Rick, I will flush the mix and inoculate a couple doses of a mycorrhizae, too.


I will show you the results.


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## gonewild (Dec 30, 2012)

What have you been fertilizing with for the 3 months since you potted them? How much fertilizer have you applied?


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## Rick (Dec 30, 2012)

gonewild said:


> What have you been fertilizing with for the 3 months since you potted them? How much fertilizer have you applied?



With all that lime (or really just limestone rock?) and orchiata bark, the alkalinity/pH may be too high and making nitrogen ( from nitrate) and iron unavailable.

What do you water with as well as what do you fertilize with?


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## Stone (Dec 30, 2012)

Rick said:


> With all that lime (or really just limestone rock?) and orchiata bark, the alkalinity/pH may be too high and making nitrogen ( from nitrate) and iron unavailable.
> 
> What do you water with as well as what do you fertilize with?



Thats why orchid bark here has ferrous sulphate added during the composting process which is enough to last for years at pH 5 to 6.5 or so.
My understanding is that orchiata does not do this. So if you pH drifts up too much, the small amount added in ferts as chelate may not be enough.


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