# Awards value



## orcoholic (Apr 15, 2016)

Had a discussion at a show recently about awards. My friend wants AM's, FCC's, and all the flower awards he can get.

I think a growers award, CCM's and CCE's, is by far, the better of the two.

Neither of us do much breeding, but we do sell orchids. I understand the dollar value of awarded orchids is higher, but that's only if we sell a piece of the awarded plant or breed with it.

Interested in your opinions.


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## paphioland (Apr 15, 2016)

orcoholic said:


> Had a discussion at a show recently about awards. My friend wants AM's, FCC's, and all the flower awards he can get.
> 
> I think a growers award, CCM's and CCE's, is by far, the better of the two.
> 
> ...



See my previous thread on aos awards.

AOS awards don't add value to high end plants. The award can take away value at the high end. AOS awards for paphs are pretty much useless to serious collectors. If you cant see quality for yourself it is unlikely you are spending serious money on paphs. Lets be honest AOS judging of paphs is so atrocious and random it is pretty much useless. I would say it establishes some size criteria at the most but they rarely measure plants accurately.Orchids are too diverse. Paph experts as judges are rare. Even if it is well judged the award in general are so random it just makes the whole thing useless. In general I never get my plants AOS judged. Only if someone take my plant for a display or I create a display which has been twice in my life. I have sold divisions of paphs at the highest price levels with no awards. It is better not to show or award serious quality paphs even from a value standpoint. Even for breeding this holds. Again Ill bring up the orchid zone almost none of the plants were awarded. Even if they were Terry didnt even know. I think if paph judging were better if could be educational and fun. It could help build wider enthusiasm for a kind of obscure hobby. Too bad AOS judging is horrible in general for paphs.

Grower awards are great to acknowledge your accomplishment in growing but it adds almost zero to the plant value. Most of the value of a plant consists of its quality not number of growths. Put it this way a crappy roth that is 2 growths is prob worth 80 bucks. A crappy roth with 10 groths is prob worth 150 for someone who like multiple spikes. Space is a premium commodity to most growers. The space itself is expensive. I had a philipinense with probably 60 growths. I couldn't even lift it. I just stopped watering it and let it die. It was taking up so much space. The flower quality was average. I couldn't even imagine re-potting as it was so root bound and heavy.


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## NYEric (Apr 15, 2016)

I disagree. If there are 2 plants of the same cross, on e awarded and one not. and they are both the same size, I would buy the awarded one. The added value is in the plant moving faster. AOS judging of Paphs is pretty good at our centers also, Phrags, not so much. Everyone has differences in what they are looking for, quality/size...BTW, it hurt to read about letting a big plant just wither and die.


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## paphioland (Apr 15, 2016)

NYEric said:


> I disagree. If there are 2 plants of the same cross, on e awarded and one not. and they are both the same size, I would buy the awarded one. The added value is in the plant moving faster. AOS judging of Paphs is pretty good at our centers also, Phrags, not so much. Everyone has differences in what they are looking for, quality/size...BTW, it hurt to read about letting a big plant just wither and die.



Are you saying two flowers of equal quality? That almost never happens. If there are two paphs one with better flower quality and one with inferior quality and awarded would you buy the awarded one????? 
So you would buy the inferior flower because it had an award? You wouldn't judge the value based on the flower but the award some group that usually aren't paph focused gave it? If you choose to buy the higher quality flower the award has no value.

I can tell you that very few of the best quality of paphs are AOS awarded. Judges never even see them. At the high end AOS judging is a joke for paphs. Even if it is good at one center because there is a high end paph expert, the awards are so inconsistent it is a joke. High end collectors I know wouldnt pay extra for an award by the AOS. If you cant see the quality yourself why be a serious paph person? I think at the low end AOS awards may matter a little to some beginner or dabbling hobbyists. Once you get over Id say 500-1000$ the award does nothing. Like I said it may hurt the value for no reason because much of AOS paph judging is obtuse. This is in no way saying that inorder to enjoy paphs you need the best quality. That is not true at all. The question was just do AOS awards add value. People chasing those awards usually want quality but don't know what quality is. AOS by its very nature cannot effectively judge paphs. Orchids are too diverse. There are people like me just obsessed with paphs for a long time. How can I expect judges, many who never think or see paphs, never had any interest in paphs to judge my paphs. It is a joke. Ask me to judge any non paph phrag a knowledgeable person in that type of orchid would probably snicker. Snicker is what I do most of the time at AOS paph judging. I think these things need to be said for the best interest of our slipper orchid hobbyists . Many paph fanatics just have paphs and maybe phrags. AOS is not a very helpful organization for slipper orchid enthusiasts.


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## Happypaphy7 (Apr 15, 2016)

I agree with not everything but most of what Paphioland says.
By the way, purely curiosity's sake, I wonder why you use awarded stud as a nickname under your member ID? lol

To me, AOS awards mean nothing. 
It actually is highly annoying to me, because when vendors sell new crosses, they generally charge a lot more for using certain parents.
Sure, there is the hope and possibility of something resembling the "greatness" of the said parents, but with huge genetic mix and match involved in seed propagation, results are often not even at all. 
So, to me, this is just an excuse of charging more money.
I understand many people do put big emphasis on awards, hence the market goes.
I find that annoying as well. After talking to a few members in my local society meeting, I sense people have huge misconception like if you have awarded plants, it means you are a great grower. Ridiculous! Or awarded plants automatically means superior and get recognition. It is hard to put any sense into those people, and some are older and "experienced" folks with high ego and pride, even worse and harder to talk any sense into those. lol

It is natural that when there is any group of anything, people like come up with a system to categorize or "judge" things according to artificial criteria agreed upon by a certain group of people.

I just don't agree with how awards are given.
CCM and CCE might be slightly different case, but still.

Talk about inconsistency. I have seen plenty of pictures of awarded paph flowers that was not even up to their standard. Symmetry wasn't there, clearly wonky petals and sepals, it was just horrible! Many are good to look at, though. 

Just my view.

Also, as always been mentioned by Paphioland, serious collectors do not care about the awards. They have their own taste and standards, and they take what they want.
I have friends who grow orchids and never show. It just means nothing to them.


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## naoki (Apr 15, 2016)

Different people has different things they treasure, and I would guess that many hobbyists would like those "awards" (so the value can go up a little bit in the "mass" market). If there is a choice, I generally avoid the ones with AM or FCC, too, because they are likely to be plants far from the typical plants in the nature. It would be great if there is a way to judge how well a particular plant preserve the intra-populational and regional variations within the species, but it is not an easy criterion. In this aspect, I think carnivorous plant community is ahead of orchid world.


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## paphioland (Apr 15, 2016)

naoki said:


> Different people has different things they treasure, and I would guess that many hobbyists would like those "awards" (so the value can go up a little bit in the "mass" market). If there is a choice, I generally avoid the ones with AM or FCC, too, because they are likely to be plants far from the typical plants in the nature. It would be great if there is a way to judge how well a particular plant preserve the intra-populational and regional variations within the species, but it is not an easy criterion. In this aspect, I think carnivorous plant community is ahead of orchid world.



If you want wild looking plants just get old collected stuff and haphazardly cross them.


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## theshatterings (Apr 16, 2016)

naoki said:


> Different people has different things they treasure, and I would guess that many hobbyists would like those "awards" (so the value can go up a little bit in the "mass" market). If there is a choice, I generally avoid the ones with AM or FCC, too, because they are likely to be plants far from the typical plants in the nature. It would be great if there is a way to judge how well a particular plant preserve the intra-populational and regional variations within the species, but it is not an easy criterion. In this aspect, I think carnivorous plant community is ahead of orchid world.





paphioland said:


> If you want wild looking plants just get old collected stuff and haphazardly cross them.


I believe naoki is referring to preserving the natural variation of species populations that occur in the wild. For instance, geographical isolation of a population of a widespread species may incur selection of certain traits not present in another population, creating an infraspecific taxa. These subtleties may be subjective, but knowing this could aid in conservation/species reintroduction efforts because the more 'adapted' plants will invariable do better than a random plant of what is considered the same species.


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## JAB (Apr 17, 2016)

"Worth" and "value" are purely subjective as is AOS and other judging. AOS judges are no more intelligent nor necessarily experienced then the average Joe that puts his plant on an award table. When they come through and decide who gets what... it is purely whimsical as to their likes and dislikes. 

Take for example the fascination as of late with big, wide dorsal sepals. The bigger the more awarded it seems regardless of color shape etc. I personally do not like such a wide dorsal (exceptions occur, but overall I like something more akin to a _spicenarium _ whose dorsal sepal is conical). 

So if I am one judge and someone else LOVES a wide dorsal which Joe's clone does, I would give a lower score but what does that actually, REALLY mean?? Nothing. 

My amateur advice would be to get strong, healthy plants from nurseries and folks who have a reputation for good business, and excellent culture. The awards will come and go (along with your $$ ).

Cheers
JAB


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## troy (Apr 17, 2016)

A flower is only as good as the beholder beleives it is, too me complex paphs are garbage disposal food to many they are awardable


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## paphioland (Apr 17, 2016)

troy said:


> A flower is only as good as the beholder beleives it is, too me complex paphs are garbage disposal food to many they are awardable



Well not everyone has good taste. oke:oke:


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## troy (Apr 17, 2016)

Lol... everybodys prefrance is different!! I love the parvi x multis alot of people don't like them


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## Linus_Cello (Apr 18, 2016)

If I remember "The Orchid Thief" correctly, the author suggests that the awards help dictate trends and sales of the major vendors in the area; so in FL most of the awards go to vandas, while slippers get ignored.


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## orchid527 (Apr 19, 2016)

The judges at the center nearest me are experienced paph and phrag growers and I do value their opinions. I have been growing slippers for some time, but these judges have seen orders of magnitude more slippers than I have. They make mistakes and they are not the most noted experts on the planet, but they know more than I do. Also, when I see a nice plant, I start looking around for flasks to purchase. I rarely get a chance to see the parents that were used, but if they were awarded, I can have some confidence that there might be some good ones. Mike


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## Happypaphy7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Good point, also, Mike.


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## Ray (Apr 20, 2016)

Linus_Cello said:


> If I remember "The Orchid Thief" correctly, the author suggests that the awards help dictate trends and sales of the major vendors in the area; so in FL most of the awards go to vandas, while slippers get ignored.




There's that, and the fact that in a particular region, you will find more of something that grows better there, even if there aren't any vendors nearby. I have several customers in Alabama and Mississippi that have great vandaceous plants, but I don't hear a great deal about cool-growers...

Better-growing plants equals more judging submissions.


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## Linus_Cello (Apr 20, 2016)

Ray said:


> There's that, and the fact that in a particular region, you will find more of something that grows better there, even if there aren't any vendors nearby. I have several customers in Alabama and Mississippi that have great vandaceous plants, but I don't hear a great deal about cool-growers...
> 
> Better-growing plants equals more judging submissions.



But many multifloral paphs are warm growers. A respected paph grower mentioned that the judges don't know them that well in FL and pass on judging them.


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## gonewild (Apr 20, 2016)

Linus_Cello said:


> A respected paph grower mentioned that the judges don't know them that well in FL and pass on judging them.



If a Judge does not know a plant type well enough to judge it he should not be a judge. Passing a plant because the judges don't know how to judge is not even close to fair to the plant or the grower who spent time, effort and money to take it to judging.


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## paphioland (Apr 20, 2016)

gonewild said:


> If a Judge does not know a plant type well enough to judge it he should not be a judge. Passing a plant because the judges don't know how to judge is not even close to fair to the plant or the grower who spent time, effort and money to take it to judging.



I agree and goes back to my point that being an adequate judge of the various generas and hybrids of orchids is nearly an impossible task. So judging is pretty useless.


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## li'l frog (Apr 21, 2016)

So much for the seven + years it takes to become an accredited judge, with the research papers, monthly educational hour, the 4,000 + plants most centers see at shows and monthly judgings each year.


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## gonewild (Apr 21, 2016)

li'l frog said:


> So much for the seven + years it takes to become an accredited judge, with the research papers, monthly educational hour, the 4,000 + plants most centers see at shows and monthly judgings each year.



That's why there is no excuse for a judge to pass a plant because they don't know enough about the genera. A judge should be able to recognize exceptional qualities in any flower and judge it based on what he sees and not just on how he was taught by seeing others work.

Personally I recognize the value of an award on a plant and it does give the plant more monetary value.


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## paphioland (Apr 21, 2016)

li'l frog said:


> So much for the seven + years it takes to become an accredited judge, with the research papers, monthly educational hour, the 4,000 + plants most centers see at shows and monthly judgings each year.



That's correct. Low barrier to entry. What percent of people who want to be judges are rejected after they go through the training because they are not adequate? Are there standardized tests with required percentile compared to other judges?What is the process for removing an incompetent or corrupt judge? There is no financial reward. No market force pushing talented people to become judges. Makes for very inconsistent quality judges, or ones with impure motives trying to do a task which if you are not very very dedicated and have lots of natural talent is almost impossible. By the way 4,000 is almost nothing. Especially with varied genera. So if judges are wildly inconsistent the process is useless. There are some great judges I'm sure. Most of those are probably great in an area they are interested in.


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## troy (Apr 22, 2016)

Well said!!!!


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## JAB (Apr 23, 2016)

I find it amusing that we (humans) think we can judge a creation of nature! And even more ego maniacal to think that such an "award" gives more value or means... well ... anything.


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