# Gloria Naugle Fine Black Spots on the Underside



## Happypaphy7 (Sep 4, 2014)

I have just received my order of two Gloria Naugle today.
I see these spots on the underside of the leaves again!
On all the leaves but the top two newest leaves on both plants.

I have bought one GN last month that came with this same spotting. It got worse and worse and I tossed that one.

I am an indoor grower and I do not use chemicals.
I also have a lot of other healthy plants, so when something questionable happens, I tend to just freak out and toss in fear of whatever the mystery issue might spread on to my other plants.

Now, those tiny black spots look as if the leaf underside had been stabbed all over with a fine needle.
They are only found on the underside and the top surface looks perfectly clean. These are not the same as the natural surface pigmentations commonly seen on hangianum hybrids.

I have a few other GN and they do not exhibit any such spots at all.
I have hundreds of paphs and I have never seen such issues.

Have anyone of you seen this or know what this is?
If yes, is this a disease of some sort?
What happened to your plants with this issue?

Thanks in advance!


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## NYEric (Sep 4, 2014)

Um, I think that's just the pattern on the bottom of the leaves.


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## paphioland (Sep 4, 2014)

Looks like maybe mite damage.


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## daniella3d (Sep 4, 2014)

I have one that is doing the same thing and I thought some mites, although not sure. I sprayed it with floramite and I will see. It does not seem to grow. I do use chimical when ever I need as I absolutely don't want pests inside my house and into my other plants.

I would isolate these plants and treat them for mites and insects and see if it spread. Is it something common with Gloria Naugle? I wonder.


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## Ozpaph (Sep 5, 2014)

I have seen that before and am not sure that its 'disease'. Worth using a strong magnifying glass or microscope to inspect.


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## paphioland (Sep 5, 2014)

Not saying the plant definitely has mites at this moment but it loos like it did at one point.


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## Justin (Sep 5, 2014)

looks like they have been damaged by bugs in a past life, and you are just seeing the leaf damage where some fungus moved in. inspect and treat them for bugs but they should be fine.


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## Erythrone (Sep 5, 2014)

if you discard it, please send it to me! oke:


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## likespaphs (Sep 5, 2014)

i agree with the possibility of mites, now or previously
the problem is that they may be broad mites or another truly microscopic mite
one typically sees the damage first because they are so small
they may be another type of mite that isn't so small
a good magnifying glass/photographer's loupe would be helpful


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 5, 2014)

NYEric said:


> Um, I think that's just the pattern on the bottom of the leaves.



No, each spots are a bit deep seated and a bit dented in. 
Certain spots are slight yellowish brown (hard to tell in these photos) and much bigger than each black spots.

All the spots on parvi hybrids ( I compare hybrids because straight species tend to have nearly fully saturated dark purple underside rather than spotting) are maroon or dark wine sort of color, and they are not dented in.


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 5, 2014)

paphioland said:


> Looks like maybe mite damage.



That's one possibility I was considering, but I do not see anything even with a magnifying glass. I'm puzzled.


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 5, 2014)

daniella3d said:


> I have one that is doing the same thing and I thought some mites, although not sure. I sprayed it with floramite and I will see. It does not seem to grow. I do use chimical when ever I need as I absolutely don't want pests inside my house and into my other plants.
> 
> I would isolate these plants and treat them for mites and insects and see if it spread. Is it something common with Gloria Naugle? I wonder.



How did you plant respond??

I sprayed my older one with this same symptoms, and guess what!
In just a day two, the spotting got much worse, and a few more days past, the leaves started to yellow, brown and completely blackened, dried up and died. well, two or three bottom most leaves died.
The surviving leaves had such ugly underside and I just got rid of it.


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 5, 2014)

Ozpaph said:


> I have seen that before and am not sure that its 'disease'. Worth using a strong magnifying glass or microscope to inspect.



I do not see anything though.
It's so frustrating.


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## likespaphs (Sep 5, 2014)

some mites are quite literally nearly microscopic


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 5, 2014)

Paphiopland & Justin - I got a response from the seller, and I was told that it might be mite damage from the past, but since the plants have been routinely sprayed, they should be fine, although I can return them if that's what I want. 
I haven't made up my mind yet. 

I have sprayed before one a GN displaying such symptom, and the plant declined quickly. I used Rose 3 in 1 stuff that I got from HD.
So, I'm not sure about spraying these new ones.
They look fine otherwise, which really puzzles me.
Also, these are supposedly blooming size, but quite small, and that is a big plus for me. Small plants that are mature size.

Erythrone- You are in Canada, though. 

likespaphs- Have you seen broad mite damage?
I have heard about them being very small, but I do not know much about them. This makes me really get rid of the plants then. If they are microscopic, then magnifying glass won't help, right?


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## paphioland (Sep 5, 2014)

Everyone has mites or has had mites. Especially if you grow indoors. Just keep them undercontrol. Spray with mineral oil if you are concerned regularly for a month. Or get ladybugs.


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## Erythrone (Sep 5, 2014)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Erythrone- You are in Canada, though.



Yes, but I did not know you aren't since you did not write your location on your profile! oke:



Happypaphy7 said:


> I have heard about them being very small, but I do not know much about them. This makes me really get rid of the plants then. If they are microscopic, then magnifying glass won't help, right?



You can use some magnifiers like these. I bought the 30 x a few years ago. But it is only userfull if you cut some tissue from the plant.

http://www.bustan.ca/product_detail.asp?menuID=1&SID=15&PID=457


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 5, 2014)

Sorry, I'm in New York City.

Thanks for the info about the magnifier. So with this one, you can see broad mites?? I have a very good vision and I do not consider spider mites small. 
just for comparison.


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 5, 2014)

likespaphs said:


> some mites are quite literally nearly microscopic



How does one combat against them, then??

I have seen pictures of "possible" broad mite damage on phalaenopsis leaf on the internet, and it showed up nothing like that of spider mite damage.
In fact, it looked nothing like damage from bugs, but it showed up as large yellowing of the leaf upper surface.

Do you know how to recognize the symptoms of damage done by broad mite or other microscopic sized-mites??


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 5, 2014)

paphioland said:


> Everyone has mites or has had mites. Especially if you grow indoors. Just keep them undercontrol. Spray with mineral oil if you are concerned regularly for a month. Or get ladybugs.



I don't think I do.
I have over one hundred paphs all indoor, and I do not see funny leaves or actually bugs. I have a very good vision and I can readily identify spider mites, but I'm not sure about the other mites if they are truly "insivible", but at least I do not see any damage of any kind other than some random brown rot on the leaf in the summer on a couple of plants. 

I find paphs to be very tough and resistant of anything, which is great.


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## Erythrone (Sep 5, 2014)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Sorry, I'm in New York City.
> 
> Thanks for the info about the magnifier. So with this one, you can see broad mites?? I have a very good vision and I do not consider spider mites small.
> just for comparison.



Actually I saw flat mites very well! And I read 20 X is a minimum for broad mites.


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## daniella3d (Sep 5, 2014)

I sprayed them last week but they have no negative effect from floramite yet. They look perfect. I was very carefull not to dose too strong.

What product did you use?

I bought Floramite from ebay and you can get 2ml bottle for around 15$ or so. Regular stuff for insects don't usually kill mites, so a miticide is the product to use. There is also the product called Sucrashield for those who prefer a more ecological solution. I went with the big gun 

There are a few miticide products available on ebay, and floramite seem to be safe for plants. The instructions on the bottle said .3 to 1.2ml but I used .7 just to be safe.




Happypaphy7 said:


> How did you plant respond??
> 
> I sprayed my older one with this same symptoms, and guess what!
> In just a day two, the spotting got much worse, and a few more days past, the leaves started to yellow, brown and completely blackened, dried up and died. well, two or three bottom most leaves died.
> The surviving leaves had such ugly underside and I just got rid of it.


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 6, 2014)

Erythrone said:


> Actually I saw flat mites very well! And I read 20 X is a minimum for broad mites.



Thanks, good to know!
I'll look into it.

Wait, someone mentioned broad mite. 
Are flat mites also microscopic?
Do you know what the damage of flat mites look like??


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 6, 2014)

daniella3d said:


> I sprayed them last week but they have no negative effect from floramite yet. They look perfect. I was very carefull not to dose too strong.
> 
> What product did you use?
> 
> ...



I believe it was Safer brand and the label said it covers mites.
Well, it definitely covered the plants as well. lol

I just looked up Floramite and I'm a bit scared. It says you have to wear PPE and do this and that. 

I have read about Sucrashield, and it seems safer (for me) but not sure how effective it might be. Have you used it?


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## daniella3d (Sep 6, 2014)

Really? I just brought my plants outside and sprayed them not even wearing gloves. I washed my hands well after. The plants show no sign of dammage from it so far.

If you are afraid of chimical, why not use Sucrashield? it is said to be good for mites and it is natural I think, not toxic.



Happypaphy7 said:


> I believe it was Safer brand and the label said it covers mites.
> Well, it definitely covered the plants as well. lol
> 
> I just looked up Floramite and I'm a bit scared. It says you have to wear PPE and do this and that.
> ...


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## Erythrone (Sep 6, 2014)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Thanks, good to know!
> I'll look into it.
> 
> Wait, someone mentioned broad mite.
> ...



I am not a mites expert but I try to learn about them. I've found these links useful:

http://www.staugorchidsociety.org/PDF/Johnson-Mites.pdf
http://www.aos.org/Default.aspx?id=131
http://www.natsorchids.com/index_htm_files/Orchid Pests and Diseases.pdf
http://www.staugorchidsociety.org/culturepests-pests-mites.htm
http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/cropprot/mites.htm
https://ucanr.edu/repositoryfiles/ca509p11-71638.pdf
http://e-gro.org/pdf/E_GRO_2_17.pdf
http://ucanr.org/sites/ipm/pdf/pmg/pmgfloriculture.pdf

A few notes:

Flat mites (False spider mites):

-They are larger than tarsonemid mites, but they are smaller than the well known spider mite (red spider mite, Tetranychus).
-Flat mites genus on orchids : Brevipalpus, Tenuipalpus (Phalaenopsis mite). 
-A lot of information is available about flat mites on orchids. 
-No web. 
-Don’t move quickly. 
-Botanigard if effective against the species I’ve found in my collection. 
-Some auxilliaries can eat them (I introduced Neoseiulus cucumeris and Amblyseius swirski and found fast moving mites thought the flat mites colonies on my Masds. Sorry, unable to know if it was cucumeris or swirski!). 

Tarsonemid mites (Thread-footed mites) : 

-Cyclamen mites and Broad mites. Also Bulb scale mites, but not of concern on orchids. 
-I’ve found difficult to find accurate informations about Tarsonemid mites on orchids.
-Magnification: 20 X to 40 X


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 6, 2014)

Thank you for the input.

I'll look them up.


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