# Phrag. besseae 'Carlisle'



## John M (Jan 11, 2015)

My best besseae.


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## Ozpaph (Jan 11, 2015)

spectacular colour and shape


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## Bjorn (Jan 11, 2015)

Are you growing it in a tray, with others? Or is it your way to get around the climbing?


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## Paph_LdyMacBeth (Jan 11, 2015)

Lookin' good!


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## The Mutant (Jan 11, 2015)

Is that one whole plant or several in the same...eh...pot? 

Absolutely love that saturated red. Oh, and the shape. Almost forgot about that one.


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## Justin (Jan 11, 2015)

amazing. love it. how deep is the pot it's in? also what is the substrate?


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## phrag guy (Jan 11, 2015)

that is great John,and it is branching,one of the best


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## Clark (Jan 11, 2015)

Sexy.


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## John M (Jan 11, 2015)

Thanks everyone!




Bjorn said:


> Are you growing it in a tray, with others? Or is it your way to get around the climbing?



It's all one clone and until very recently, it was all one plant (there were even 3 more BS growths in the tray, all attached by the branching rhizome); but, I have cut the rhizome to encourage more new growths to sell and removed the 3 growths to a different pot. It's growing in a carrying tray (11" x 20" x 2" deep). Substrate is CHC and pea gravel. Yes, this is how to deal with the climbing habit in besseae. When in a 4" - 5" pot, they send their rhizomes straight up. When they're in large, shallow trays, the rhizomes go out horizontally and old, back growths tend to produce extra new growths more easily. [You can see two new starts inbetween the two oldest growths. Although, I did cut the rhizome between them and the front part of the plant to encourage the extra back growths to start up.] The plant will be repotted in the spring and the front and back divisions will be potted in separate trays; or, the back division there now will be divided again and each bit given it's own tray. Somehow, the plant's roots can sense when they're able to "run", as opposed to curling up tightly in a small pot. When the roots can run, the plants are happiest.

I've already removed a 3 growth piece (one old growth + 2 lead growths). You can see a big void on the left side, inbetween the oldest growths and the blooming one. That's where the other 3 growths came from. The division is for sale....oke:


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## The Mutant (Jan 11, 2015)

Hmm... Maybe I should try something similar with my Green Hornet since it likes to get new growths above the substrate. 

I suppose you do have some sort of drainage in the tray, drilled holes maybe?


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## NYEric (Jan 11, 2015)

Yay besseae!


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## Erythrone (Jan 11, 2015)

Wow!!! It is very happy!


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## Migrant13 (Jan 11, 2015)

That one is beautiful.


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## SlipperFan (Jan 11, 2015)

Wow Wow Wow!!!


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## MorandiWine (Jan 11, 2015)

Gorgeous! What a fine example of this elegant species, my long time favorite.

Tyler


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## John M (Jan 11, 2015)

Thanks everyone.

Yes, the trays come from the manufacturer with lots of drainage holes already present. I water this tray OFTEN. If it's not sopping wet, I water it. All the excess drains out; so, there's still lost of air getting into the mix too.


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## cnycharles (Jan 11, 2015)

Interesting. Might be good way to grow armeniacum


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## John M (Jan 11, 2015)

cnycharles said:


> Interesting. Might be good way to grow armeniacum



Why? I'd expect all that water to rot armeniacum. If you just mean in a large, shallow tray.....Yes, I agree. The best grown micranthums and armeniacums I've seen were grown in large, shallow trays; or large hanging baskets.


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## John M (Jan 11, 2015)

Here's the 3 growth division that I removed from the tray. I put it into a large, plastic vegetable bowl (with a drainage hole drilled in the bottom, of course); but, I chose poorly. That bowl is too small. I need to move this division up into something MUCH bigger in the spring.


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## eaborne (Jan 11, 2015)

Fantastic!


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## cnycharles (Jan 12, 2015)

John M said:


> Why? I'd expect all that water to rot armeniacum. If you just mean in a large, shallow tray.....Yes, I agree. The best grown micranthums and armeniacums I've seen were grown in large, shallow trays; or large hanging baskets.



Yes, thought was simply for large hanging tray like the pics posted of big baskets of armeniacum. ... Though they do require more water that way, definitely less than for Besseae. 
I had tried to come up with a similar solution to the climbing bess syndrome and auto watering to mimic the environment by using something like a paint roller tray with a water pump in bottom piping up to top for trickling. Tray seemed too small though it has a slant and progress stalled  if your tray were solid and you could catch water at bottom of slant somehow and pump up to top, you'd have something very similar to nature (and you wouldn't have to water every day  )


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## The Mutant (Jan 12, 2015)

John M said:


> Thanks everyone.
> 
> Yes, the trays come from the manufacturer with lots of drainage holes already present. I water this tray OFTEN. If it's not sopping wet, I water it. All the excess drains out; so, there's still lost of air getting into the mix too.


What are the measurements of the tray (height, width, length) and the plant (the whole thing)? I'm seriously considering moving my Green Hornet to something similar. I've found seed trays that look promising, but some measurements as comparasion would be very helpful.


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## John M (Jan 12, 2015)

The Mutant said:


> What are the measurements of the tray (height, width, length) and the plant (the whole thing)?



See post #9, page #1.

Not sure what you mean by "....and the plant (the whole thing)?"


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## The Mutant (Jan 12, 2015)

John M said:


> See post #9, page #1.
> 
> Not sure what you mean by "....and the plant (the whole thing)?"


I'm so sorry. I don't know how to use my eyes apparently. Thank you. 

'The whole thing' as in how much space does it occupy. Not only the leafspan of the largest growth for example, but the dimensions of the entire plant. I'm sorry for being such a pain.


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## Lmpgs (Jan 12, 2015)

I like very much the way you planted it.


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## John M (Jan 12, 2015)

The Mutant said:


> I'm so sorry. I don't know how to use my eyes apparently. Thank you.
> 
> 'The whole thing' as in how much space does it occupy. Not only the leafspan of the largest growth for example, but the dimensions of the entire plant. I'm sorry for being such a pain.



LOL! You're not a pain! 

I'll measure the largest growth for you tomorrow. However,just using the known dimensions of the tray, you can see that the plant is pretty big and make a pretty good guess at the leafspan. Actually, when I replant it in the spring, I'm going to put the front half in one tray and probably split the back 2 growths apart and put them into their own individual tray. The front half will not go back into the same size tray. It's too small. It will go into a tray of about twice the size @ 24" x 24" x 2" deep. Then, the plant will be allowed to grow and multiply undisturbed for the next 6 to 8 years, or so.

Here's a different besseae that started out as a single back growth with just 2 leaves. 






Here is the same plant just shy of 3 years later. Missing from this photo are the 3 growths that I'd already taken off. It had gone from one old growth with 2 leaves to 21 growths in 35 months.


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## tomkalina (Jan 12, 2015)

I don't think I've ever seen a better grown besseae, John. Have you tried this method successfully with any other Phrag. species?


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## MorandiWine (Jan 12, 2015)

HOLY CRAP!! That is a TON of growth for just 3 years!

WOW

tyler


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## John M (Jan 12, 2015)

Thank you, both.

No Tom, I haven't tried it with anything else. It never occurred to me because the other Phrag. species I have are all natural clumpers. But, perhaps I should give schlimii a try. It'd be nice to make a "Super-clump!" Hmmmmm?


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## Justin (Jan 12, 2015)

now that is worthy of some kind of grower's award.


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## SlipperFan (Jan 12, 2015)

I've tried growing besseae in bulb pans without this success. Maybe they are still just too deep. I'll have to try this shallow tray idea. Thanks, John. This is really a beautifully grown plant!


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## cnycharles (Jan 12, 2015)

Because the tray bottom literally is a screen, it isn't like a shallow tray and allows much more aeration. The very frequent watering may also be what is allowing this to be very successful!


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## John M (Jan 12, 2015)

But, it's not a screen; or anything like one. It's got some holes melted into it during the manufacturing process. The bottom is mostly solid. I believe it's actually the roots being able to run along, attached to the bottom that makes the difference. Orchid roots function more efficiently at the point where they contact and attach to some kind of surface. So, the ample room on a large tray bottom allows for this. The fact that it's very shallow allows most of the root mass to be in contact with the bottom.


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## cnycharles (Jan 12, 2015)

Okay, the tray looks about the same size as trays we have that hold seedling plug trays and have a wide mesh or grid bottom

I have seen other trays about that size but are longer I think and just have a few slits in the bottom (I think) 


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## John M (Jan 12, 2015)

Yes, there are a lot of greenhouse carrying trays and they have many different designs. The one my plant is potted in has a few slits melted in the bottom; otherwise, it's solid. Also, the glass dish that the huge plant is growing in, is of course, quite solid; except for a single 3/4" hole drilled in the centre.


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## The Mutant (Jan 13, 2015)

John M said:


> LOL! You're not a pain!
> 
> I'll measure the largest growth for you tomorrow. However,just using the known dimensions of the tray, you can see that the plant is pretty big and make a pretty good guess at the leafspan. Actually, when I replant it in the spring, I'm going to put the front half in one tray and probably split the back 2 growths apart and put them into their own individual tray. The front half will not go back into the same size tray. It's too small. It will go into a tray of about twice the size @ 24" x 24" x 2" deep. Then, the plant will be allowed to grow and multiply undisturbed for the next 6 to 8 years, or so.
> 
> ...



That's one happy besseae!

The tray I'm looking at is solid with some holes in the bottom so it sounds like it's something similar to what you have. 

The only thing I'm worried about is that the Green Hornet is potted in a pretty deep pot which means the roots have grown downwards. I guess I could trim them if I put it in a tray, but I'm worried that it might be too much abuse for it. I guess I could cut off the two new growths as soon as they have developed root systems and put them in a tray and see how it goes, but then I'll have two Green Hornets again... The whole point of me trying this is to only have one plant after all. :rollhappy:

If I manage to pull it off and get a very happy Green Hornet, it will take over my apartment. It only has three mature growths, but those still manage to give the plant a diameter of around 72cm (28"). It's a real spacehogger but I still like it.


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## eggshells (Jan 13, 2015)

Wow, monster bessae, I too would like to grow on a shallow but wide pot but there is this problem called "space". Its very limiting...


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## Hamlet (Jan 13, 2015)

Amazing plant & flower. Congrats!


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## JeanLux (Jan 14, 2015)

Bravo John, and thanks for the growing tips!!!! Jean


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## jjkOC (Jan 14, 2015)

Love the fat petals! Have you seen the photo of the besseae cultivar that filled a huge barrel? Maybe that'll be your 'Carlisle' pretty soon!


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## goods (Jan 14, 2015)

John M said:


>



John, do you have any idea what the fern species is growing alongside this besseae? It's very nice and looks like it could be an Elaphoglossum species (ie not a typical greenhouse weed)


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## John M (Jan 15, 2015)

No, I have no idea what the fern is. They just showed up in my greenhouse years ago. A nice one is very beautiful; but, they volunteer too much and they've killed a lot of seedlings and small, slower growing orchids. That one in the pot was planted there by me as an attractive accent. However, a year later I had to cut it out as it was growing too aggressively and crowding out the besseae.


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## Ruth (Jan 15, 2015)

So nice!!!!
Do you think a bonsai container/dish
would be deep enough?


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## John M (Jan 15, 2015)

Thanks. A depth of just a couple inches is plenty. What's important is that it's BIG!


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## SlipperFan (Jan 15, 2015)

John M said:


> Thanks. A depth of just a couple inches is plenty. What's important is that it's BIG!



Hmmmm -- that for the roots to crawl?


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## John M (Jan 16, 2015)

SlipperFan said:


> Hmmmm -- that for the roots to crawl?



Yes, Dot. The plants do better if they have room to "run", rather than coiled up tightly in a small pot.


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## Bjorn (Jan 16, 2015)

John M said:


> Yes, Dot. The plants do better if they have room to "run", rather than coiled up tightly in a small pot.



I have seen that for other species/paphs as well. When potting up my flats of deflasked seedlings, I normally have to coil up the roots since they had been growing (crawling) rather extensively in the tray; which by the way is quite similar to those you use for bessae John. Tray growing is however too space consuming for most of us, my greenhouse is about to burst now. If those Roths (100 approx) grow more, it will get serious!!!:sob:


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## The Mutant (Jan 16, 2015)

Bjorn said:


> I have seen that for other species/paphs as well. When potting up my flats of deflasked seedlings, I normally have to coil up the roots since they had been growing (crawling) rather extensively in the tray; which by the way is quite similar to those you use for bessae John. Tray growing is however too space consuming for most of us, my greenhouse is about to burst now. If those Roths (100 approx) grow more, it will get serious!!!:sob:


You could always send a few of them to me, let me 'care' for them awhile, and then I'll send them back after they've shrunk a bit. :rollhappy:


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## John M (Jan 16, 2015)

The Mutant said:


> You could always send a few of them to me, let me 'care' for them awhile, and then I'll send them back after they've shrunk a bit. :rollhappy:



oke:


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## Bjorn (Jan 16, 2015)

The Mutant said:


> You could always send a few of them to me, let me 'care' for them awhile, and then I'll send them back after they've shrunk a bit. :rollhappy:



Better kill some myself!:viking::viking::viking::fight::fight:


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## gnathaniel (Jan 17, 2015)

Holy crap, John, those plants are incredible! I think I'll be putting my besseae in a shallow pan ASAP.


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## Phrag-Plus (Jan 18, 2015)

Congratulation John! This is a very well grown and happy plant!


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## Ozpaph (Jan 19, 2015)

That is masterly growing. What is the moss growing on top of the mix?


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## orchidsimplicit (Jan 19, 2015)

A Great thread. Thanks John.


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## John M (Jan 19, 2015)

Thanks all!




Ozpaph said:


> That is masterly growing. What is the moss growing on top of the mix?



I have no clue. It's just sheet-moss that I collected from the forest. Eventually, it died off and was replaced by a much nicer, emerald green sheet-moss that volunteered on it's own.


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## Ozpaph (Jan 20, 2015)

Thanks.


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