# micranthum having problems-what am I doing wrong



## Bjorn (Jul 21, 2015)

I havre some micranthums that I got as a flask in March 2012, and now some of them have started to produce flowers. The first one appeared in November last year and everything looked fine exept for one thing; the stalk did not want to grow. The flower as such was nice though. Overall the Whole plant got this "crashed" appearance.














I expected that it was this plant only and recently another one came with a bud.
And not just one bud! Actually with a doublet!!:clap:



But again, the stalk did not want to grow, better, but still too short.
















What could be the reason for this? I do have some theories, but would like some input from you guys


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## ehanes7612 (Jul 21, 2015)

have you checked the roots?


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## Bjorn (Jul 21, 2015)

No, with that substrate and anticipated few roots (and brittle) I have not. Might be an idea though.


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## valenzino (Jul 21, 2015)

temperature and light hours during budding?Sometimes particularly with parvis,too much hours of light and high temperature during night can result in compressed spikes and deformed flowers....


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## ehanes7612 (Jul 21, 2015)

if you are growing in a greenhouse then the plant should bloom in season if it's healthy. If you havent repotted in awhile this will give you an opportunity to check the roots. Micranthums seem to like being repotted more often than not. they seem to like a fresher mix. I used to grow micranthums when i had a greenhouse and i was quite successful, i actually saved a few and garnered a couple awards..i wouldn't dare grow them under lights...too warm and more difficult to mimic seasonal variances. I cant imagine there being a temp issue being in S Norway, maybe too much summer light as Valenzino suggested. It may just be that it's just a premature bloom and is blooming out of season ..it can happen with parvis.


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## Bjorn (Jul 21, 2015)

Sure, I used to grow micranthums sucessfully with annual flowering for 20 years, in same soil, but when I starteed fertilising (the high Level 2-300ppm TDS) they collapsed and died. Guess they cannot take high fertiliser levels well. Temperature should be ok here. In this case I feel (hope) that its caused by flowering out of season.


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## eggshells (Jul 21, 2015)

Bjorn, maybe because it's out of season. But I am with Valenzino. It might be temperature related. Probably got too high. It'll be alright next blooming.


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## gonewild (Jul 21, 2015)

My opinion....

What you are doing is noticing some condition and effect of environment that causes flower induction. The condition may be causing a juvenile plant to flower (become reproductive) before it has the ability to produce and support a full stem. Or maybe the condition that induced the flower spike was not followed by conditions favorable to the reproduction phase of growth so the spike stoped development.

Similar results happen when Phalaenopsis are induced to spike before the plant has reached sexual maturity. 

I don't think this is a sign of poor plant health caused by bad roots.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jul 21, 2015)

I would be more concerned about the plants. I see leaves yellowing and drying and such.

Regarding the spike length, I don't think it is necessarily an issue, well, other than that you do not like them too short.
I have seen many that are very short like these, and the longer ones were not very long either.


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## valenzino (Jul 21, 2015)

gonewild said:


> My opinion....
> 
> What you are doing is noticing some condition and effect of environment that causes flower induction. The condition may be causing a juvenile plant to flower (become reproductive) before it has the ability to produce and support a full stem. Or maybe the condition that induced the flower spike was not followed by conditions favorable to the reproduction phase of growth so the spike stoped development.
> 
> ...



Agree 100%


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## Happypaphy7 (Jul 21, 2015)

Not really. It makes no sense.

The term sexual maturity is rather incorrect to use for plants in this situation, but in that sense the way you'd like to use it, since flowers are sexual organs of plants, the fact that plants are flowering means that they have reached the "sexual maturity" whether it is the first time or second blooming does not matter.

The same goes with the term juvenile. Juvenile is young animals or humans or maybe plants that have not yet reached the sexual maturity, but as you use it, it still doe not make sense because juvenile making flowers (sex organs) just does not work.

I thought I would just clarify.

Regarding phalaenopsis, I won't go there here since it's not related, but I don't think I've heard of that ever. 
The spike length and flower count is mainly affected by temperature manipulation. Very well known fact. 

Unless the greenhouse in Norway gets super hot for an extended period of time, I can't think of any unfavorable conditions as Paph. micranthum in nature flowers from spring to summer, and the summer while being mostly mildly warm, it can get quite warm on occasions. Plus, micranthum habitat range can vary.

The spike length being short is not necessarily an issue.
They might get longer on the next bloom. or not.
Give time and let us know.


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## ehanes7612 (Jul 21, 2015)

well, the only way I know of dismissing the roots as a problem is to actually check the roots...but hey, I am just thinking out loud...and all this speculation is hurting my head


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## gonewild (Jul 21, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Not really. It makes no sense.



"My opinion" whether it makes sense to you or not. :wink:
However my opinion is based on fact.



> The term sexual maturity is rather incorrect to use for plants in this situation, but in that sense the way you'd like to use it, since flowers are sexual organs of plants, the fact that plants are flowering means that they have reached the "sexual maturity" whether it is the first time or second blooming does not matter.



Being sexually capable of reproducing and being sexually mature are different. When mature the plant can present it's reproductive organs in a complete strong efficient form that will enable competitive reproduction. Flowers produced on immature plants often are not capable of receiving the pollinator. An example is a slipper flower on a short stem that has a smashed pouch that blocks the pollination.



> The same goes with the term juvenile. Juvenile is young animals or humans or maybe plants that have not yet reached the sexual maturity, but as you use it, it still doe not make sense because juvenile making flowers (sex organs) just does not work.
> I thought I would just clarify.



Juveniles of all life forms can reproduce before they have reached maturity.
Maturity means being fully developed to genetic potential, being capable of sexual reproduction does not require maturity in plants or animals (especially not in humans). I'm not sure you clarified the point if you consider that a first bloom plant almost always has inferior flowers compared to what it will have once it "matures" several bloomings later.



> Regarding phalaenopsis, I won't go there here since it's not related, but I don't think I've heard of that ever.
> The spike length and flower count is mainly affected by temperature manipulation. Very well known fact.



This is not correct. Read any info about commercial Phalaenopsis production and there will be discussion on the need to prevent immature plants from blooming because the spikes will be short with few flowers. Only mature plants will produce a marketable blooming plant with mass market standards.



> Unless the greenhouse in Norway gets super hot for an extended period of time, I can't think of any unfavorable conditions as Paph. micranthum in nature flowers from spring to summer, and the summer while being mostly mildly warm, it can get quite warm on occasions. Plus, micranthum habitat range can vary.



That's what people thought about Phalaenopsis until research showed that certain conditions will induce out of season flowering consistently. My suggestion is that a similar effect may be possible with the micranthum, especially since temperature is known to affect blooming. 



> The spike length being short is not necessarily an issue.
> They might get longer on the next bloom. or not.



It seems the spike length is an issue, since it has happened on two plants that are likely immature.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jul 21, 2015)

You are making things up, redefining terms as you wish. Fine, do what you want. 

I know you will not stop with your ridiculousness, but let me teach you one thing that is probably a lot simper and straightforward among other things and then I will exit from this thread. 

What you talk about phalaenopsis is wrong, not me. 
Commercial growers of phalaenopsis keep their greenhouses above certain temperature to keep the plants from spiking. Spike length is not the issue. 
It's the flower count and the quality. Also, they want to gear the flowering time for certain holidays when the market demand gets big.
Another main thing they do in Taiwan and Japan is they keep their plants at certain temperature (cool) to encourage the spike tip continue to elongate so they have a very long spike with many many flowers.
These are facts, you have apparently no idea what you are talking about.
I'm not surprised because it's not new coming from you.


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## gonewild (Jul 21, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> These are facts, you have apparently no idea what you are talking about.
> I'm not surprised because it's not new coming from you.



I expected rudeness from you for some reason but I thought I would take a chance of having a reasonable discussion about growing plants. Why make every discussion personal? What did I ever do to you?

I do have an idea about the facts. I've been growing Phals for a very long time and I am producing them commercially now using refrigerated spike induction on a scheduled program in a hostile growing environment, but that's off topic.

Ridiculous.


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## gonewild (Jul 21, 2015)

Bjorn you asked what you were doing wrong.
The simple point I suggested is to figure out what environmental condition induced the spikes and avoid that condition on your immature seedlings since the micranthum seem to want to flower prematurely. If you do figure out what caused the spikes to form you may be able use that condition to induce spikes to form out of season on mature plants. If you do figure out how to do it think twice before sharing.


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## Stone (Jul 21, 2015)

Micranthum needs a long cold dormancy with bright light and little water. This is what triggers the hormonal signals to flower properly. (including spike length) Growing hyacith without a cold dormancy is a perfect example. Very short distorted flower spikes and eventually they die.
It should have a min of 5 - 10C for at least 3 months and dryish roots. (even 10 is probably a bit high)
Whenever I grow cold climate trees from seed I need to stratify them for 3 months at 4C or germination will be very poor. Same thing.
I find micranthum grows well at a min of 20C while young but that should definitly stop when it reaches maturity. IMO

The other night at our club meeting the short life of fairrieanum was brought up. I suspect the same issue may be causing that.


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## Bjorn (Jul 22, 2015)

I am pretty certain that it may be connected to what I call "out of season". That includes most of the elements listed above perhaps excluding bad roots and that "sex-part". Agree that it is better to wait with sex until maturity has commenced. Perhaps not only for Paphs............
What is going to be superbly interesting is the outcome of these swellings.....They are also a bit out of season, but here I feel that the roots should be far better. Eric, pay attention......:evil:


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## eggshells (Jul 22, 2015)

Oh no! Why are you messing with the jinx. Sending some positive vibes to counter it. Nice micranthum alba.


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Jul 22, 2015)

Can't wait to see these bloom, as I have the same cross. Mine are larger than yours but no sheaths yet.


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## Bjorn (Jul 23, 2015)

time will tell...there are two buds btw.


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## Bjorn (Jul 23, 2015)

another thing, the original short-stalked one seems to grow a bit. Perhaps it will end up normal for the second flower???


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## NYEric (Jul 23, 2015)

Bjorn said:


> What is going to be superbly interesting is the outcome of these swellings.....They are also a bit out of season, but here I feel that the roots should be far better. Eric, pay attention......:evil:



Sorry, I was upset by all the vitriol above!  Yes I see your albums. I may have something nicer in a few years! :evil:!!!


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## cnycharles (Jul 24, 2015)

Phals and others can flower initially with a small number of so so flowers and then later with more growth have more and nicer flowers. 
Phals of certain types grown commercially are often held at higher temps; these do have a cool dip trigger. While they are held warm not flowering they are storing up energy so they later have a more impressive display. It is generally known that living organisms can be manipulated into a reproductive state by exposing them to general hormone like chemicals. It's recently been found that chemical by products in our environment are causing human children to become reproductive clearly before their overall physical state has matured, especially the nervous system
There is no reason to not have strong opinions, but if a statement can't be expressed without a personal slam, then it's more likely the particular statement lacks basis and the speaker thinks moving backwards an opponent will counter or silence criticism. If a statement can't be calmly expressed and or defended then maybe it's best to wait until more details can be gathered to support a discussion point


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