# HINI Swine Flu



## arcticshaun (Nov 1, 2009)

I just got vaccinated against H1N1 the other night (my shoulder is still sore). The entire procedure took less than 30 minutes. I'm not a big fan of 'flu shots' but with all the fear-mongering in the media and the number of cases we've had locally my family decided to try an ounce of prevention against this pandemic. We are lucky in that the NWT (Northwest Territories) has a good supply of the vacine and I think 30% of the population got shots in the first 5 days of vaccinations. It remains to be seen whether this is going to be as bad as the hype or if this shot was any help or not.
Anybody else thinking of getting an extra needle this year?

Shaun


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## Clark (Nov 1, 2009)

My wife and I declined as always.


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## goldenrose (Nov 1, 2009)

I'm with you Clark!


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## NYEric (Nov 1, 2009)

Well Shaun, now you have the flu and have to get vaccinated next year if you want to prevent the symptoms! None for me thanx!


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## Candace (Nov 1, 2009)

I'm more afraid of what's in these vacinations than catching the actual flu. I've never had a flu shot. Though if I worked around kids or in the health care field, I would probably give it more thought.


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## arcticshaun (Nov 1, 2009)

The real flu shot doesn't arrive here until later in Nov (another needle). With only a chance that it'll prevent or mitigate the symptoms of whatever strains of flu's actually arrive. I'm not a total conspiracy theorist but I worry because many horrible things have been done to people in the guise of helping them (too many X-Files episodes back in the 90's as well).
Our choice to proceed with the H1N1 was based on a) fear, b) 3 children in 3 different schools and c) both wife and myself work with large groups of people. I was going to skip it until the last round of deaths among relatively healthy people (according to the news). Here in Canada the fear of the pandemic and resulting panic lines for vaccinations are probably going to cause as much damage as this particular flu strain.

Shaun


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## rdlsreno (Nov 1, 2009)

I have to take it soon since I will be working in the medical field. This make me cringe since I never got a flu shot.

Ramon


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## Lanmark (Nov 1, 2009)

I get a flu vaccination every year and have done so for over a decade. I haven't gotten the flu once during that time, whereas before I started getting vaccinated, I managed to catch the flu almost every year.

I'll get vaccinated for H1N1 just as soon as I can. The vaccination isn't available here yet. I'll get vaccinated for the seasonal flu when that vaccination becomes available as well.

The shots contain no live viruses, and where I live they contain no adjuvant either. I'm not sensitive to thimersol, so I see no reason not to continue being vaccinated.

Generally I will feel a little tired and my arm will ache for a day or two after getting vaccinated. I've never gotten sick after getting a flu vaccination, and the mild symptoms I do experience go away rather quickly.

I'm not panicked about H1N1. I am doing my best to avoid getting sick, and I'll get the vaccination when I can. That's all I can do, so why worry?

As of last night my cousin's 2 year old daughter and 7 year old son were both admitted to hospital with 105°F fevers. Both are being given Tamiflu to combat the H1N1 virus and the girl is also getting antibiotics for pneumonia. They had the chance to get vaccinated for H1N1 almost three weeks ago but my cousin (a school teacher) wouldn't allow it. His brother is an MD who vaccinated both of his own children a couple of weeks ago, and they haven't gotten sick.

Vaccination is a personal choice. I think there is a lot of negative hype out there which is based on fear, ignorance and unfounded prejudice. I do believe the use of adjuvant (such as squalene) to boost the strength or stretch supplies of vaccines is a potentially dangerous practice. It's best to be well-informed before making your decision. That doesn't mean listening to talk radio show hosts or blindly accepting what your government or anyone else says. It means taking the time to look at legitimate websites showing legitimate research results, seeking out accurate information, learning the facts and discussing things with a doctor you trust.


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## Clark (Nov 1, 2009)

My wife seen masks being wore last week on NYC subway(Bronx).


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## KyushuCalanthe (Nov 1, 2009)

H1N1 is making the rounds here in Japan too. Lots of school closings or partial closings (individual classes). I had a Halloween party at my house for my students Saturday and only 8 out of 13 showed...all 5 were sick with it. The youngest kids seem to be the most susceptible so far. Shots are not available for most people - only kids, older folks (70s+), people with compromised immune systems, and pregnant women.


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## SlipperKing (Nov 1, 2009)

I have to side with Lanmark. I've been working with/ growing viruses for the past 29 years. I have never seen anything like this past year. When H1N1 came on the scene in May/April of this yr and the first baby died in your hospital we have been swamped with specimens with a high percent positive for the Swine. I never got a flu shot either for most of those years. I always felt my immune system was at it's peak, I had to be getting low level of exposure to all kinds of bugs. Well, this one is different. It's killing young kids at an alarming rate. We have two now in the PICU, one will probably make it but will have serious damage to their lungs. The other will not, their lungs are being liquidified by the virus and it is Tamaflu resistant. Not good news. This virus is constantly changing it's surface antigens that's why you need a flu shot each year. Why give this virus,H1N1 a chance to change more? The more people vaccinated the fewer host available for this virus to grow and change in. We don't need antiviral drug resistant Influenza bugs floating about killing more. Think about this, you catch the flu (H1N1) you're out for week coughing, sneezing and you get over it. While you were coughing and sneezing where did all those bugs go? Those bugs could end up in your neighbor's kids, a kid down the street, across town? I just saying the more people vaccinated the fewer chances of little kids catching it and dying because of it.


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## SlipperFan (Nov 1, 2009)

I'm with Rick and Mark. When both flu shots become available to me, I'll offer my arms.

Years ago, I think flu shot were made differently than they are today. For years I didn't get the shots because they made me sick. But about 3 years ago, my doctor talked me into getting one, and with great trepidation, I got one. I've gotten one every year since, and haven't gotten sick from the shots, or the flu. Stomach flu is another story...


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## Barbara (Nov 1, 2009)

Rick, I'm curious if there might be another way to create the vaccines without using eggs? I'm allergic to eggs, as is my sister. She had been getting the flu shot for a few years until she developed an auto-immune response (perhaps connected to the egg protein?) after getting a shot a couple years ago, and decided she was through with it.


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## SlipperKing (Nov 1, 2009)

Barbara said:


> Rick, I'm curious if there might be another way to create the vaccines without using eggs? I'm allergic to eggs, as is my sister. She had been getting the flu shot for a few years until she developed an auto-immune response (perhaps connected to the egg protein?) after getting a shot a couple years ago, and decided she was through with it.


What about the new form on the market. FluMist? The new form is snored up your nose. I'm not sure how it's made but the sales rep for FluMist buys us lunch on the first Wed of every month and I'll ask!


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## Barbara (Nov 1, 2009)

Oh that might work, it would be very helpful since I have asthma which can get pretty bad when I get sick. I'm not sure if that's available here in Canada though, I'll check it out. Thanks for the suggestion!


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 1, 2009)

I got the seasonal flu shot in early October, got the H1N1 shot about 10 days ago. For years I avoided flu shots, as the one I got in the 70's made me sick. I don't get the flu anyway...but I started getting the shots about 10 years ago after being assured that they had been perfected in terms of side effects. I've gotten them every year since...when available. No effects other than a sore shoulder. The H1N1 didn't even give me that...felt fine afterwards..though my wife felt sick for a day and my son felt sick for 2 days...my oldest works in a hospital,and he can't even get the shot! I had the choice between the shot and the nasal spray ("flu snot") but I opted for the shot. I figure since I work with teenagers, and interact with over 100 people each day, it made sense to get the shot...Take care, Eric


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## Hera (Nov 1, 2009)

SlipperKing said:


> What about the new form on the market. FluMist? The new form is snored up your nose. I'm not sure how it's made but the sales rep for FluMist buys us lunch on the first Wed of every month and I'll ask!



Flumist is safe for those who are egg allergic, but not a good choice for those with asthma. THis puts my son out of the running for both. 

I personally get the flu shot every year. If I don't the flu turns into bronchitis for me and I end up on antibiotics. Then a round of Advair. Its just easier and cost effective for me to get the shot.


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## Lanmark (Nov 1, 2009)

I know the FluMist contains live (but weakened) virus. It is safe for a specific group of recipients but not safe for certain other individuals. Those who cannot have the mist should get the injection since there are no living viruses in the injectable form. I have no idea about the egg content of FluMist, but when I Googled it just now, there was an egg allergy warning associated with it.


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## Wendy (Nov 1, 2009)

I've never had a flu shot of any kind and I don't plan on starting now. My personal choice.


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## Bolero (Nov 2, 2009)

Nope, I never ever get flu shots. I know they say you can't get the flu after you have the shot but I get sick from colds and hay fever and whatever. One year I was sick for 3 weeks with a type of flu after having the shot.

Never again.......well not until I'm old and frail and don't want to die.......


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## TyroneGenade (Nov 2, 2009)

Hey, Piggy Piggy,
Up in the air,
With a cough and a sneeze,
You fly everywhere...

Vaccines are, in my cynical opinion, the wrong what to deal with this new irritation. Closing schools is the best and cheapest way forward. Schools are breeding grounds for disease, particularly of the viral kind. The high density conditions favor the virus which can infect the child at the desk next door the fastest, i.e. it favors the most virulent virus. If you shut down the schools then the least virulent virus is favored, i.e. the one which causes a low-level but persistent infection. In essence, you breed an attenuated strain which is less dangerous.

Here in South Africa the H1N1 virus arrived just before the winter school vacation. The virus was rampant before the holidays but now after the holidays it is hardly mentioned in polite conversation. You just can't beat a little quarantine to sort out a virus.


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## Yoyo_Jo (Nov 2, 2009)

I got my seasonal flu shot last weekend, but it will be sometime before I can get the H1N1 vaccination (and I will). The government has closed the mass clinics in our province until they can figure out a way to distribute the vaccines appropriately, ie. to the high risk people first. The lines ups for the clinics when they opened last week were so long that they cut them off at 10 AM. People here are ready to lynch the health authorities for screwing up the roll out of the vaccination process.


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## Clark (Nov 2, 2009)

How timely.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/11/02/outsmart.flu/index.html?eref=rss_topstories


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## goldenrose (Nov 2, 2009)

SlipperKing said:


> .... This virus is constantly changing it's surface antigens that's why you need a flu shot each year. Why give this virus,H1N1 a chance to change more? The more people vaccinated the fewer host available for this virus to grow and change in. We don't need antiviral drug resistant Influenza bugs floating about killing more. Think about this, you catch the flu (H1N1) you're out for week coughing, sneezing and you get over it. While you were coughing and sneezing where did all those bugs go? Those bugs could end up in your neighbor's kids, a kid down the street, across town? I just saying the more people vaccinated the fewer chances of little kids catching it and dying because of it.


 At this point in time I will not get a seasonal flu shot, but have been straddling the fence on the H1N1. Rick you make some good points, but it's leading me to more questions. Rick, I should say, I don't mean to put you on the spot, others can certainly chime in but that's what 29 years in the field does for you! Here goes ....
Why does a virus mutate? It's my understanding that it's for survival & it usually makes the virus weaker, but we're in the age of the opposite happening, the superviruses are here & have been. So wouldn't the more people being vaccinated also encourage this virus to mutate & thus become stronger?
Lanmark gave some wonderful advice _"It's best to be well-informed before making your decision. That doesn't mean listening to talk radio show hosts or blindly accepting what your government or anyone else says. It means taking the time to look at legitimate websites showing legitimate research results, seeking out accurate information, learning the facts and discussing things with a doctor you trust." _ but it makes me wonder how many Drs. actually fully read the inserts that come with all the vaccines & meds that they prescribe, do they really know all the contraindications? ... rather unlikely. Are the drug companies upfront? I'm sorry but they're only telling us a part of it. Now we need to trust these sources? It's really difficult to seek out accurate info. I have a friend, who has a friend that is tops in the field of immunology. When she was asked what her opinion was on H1N1 ....... if she made the comments about her true feelings, she would lose her job!


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 2, 2009)

The only "superviruses" are the ones newly introduced to the human population, to which we have no immunity..Ebola, Marburg, HIV. All evolved in animals before making the jump to humans...in many cases habitat destruction and intrusion of people and their animals into new areas has created the chance for the viruses to jump. In terms of the flu, the last "supervirus" was the 1918 "Spanish"flu...which has contributed some genes to the H1N1 strain, even though its more closely related to bird flu. The great fear is that a similar flu will reappear, hence the inordinate (and to me, misplaced) panic over H1N1. The real concern, in terms of medical treatments stimulating superbugs, are the antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria, like MRSA. This is a direct consequence of overuse of antibiotics in medicine and agriculture. Viruses mutate, and probably recruit new genes as they reproduce in our cells ...but bacteria can exchange genes even with unrelated species, and the prevalence of antibiotics in all bacterial environments is a powerful selecting agent for resistance. Take care, Eric


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## Clark (Nov 2, 2009)

SlipperKing said:


> While you were coughing and sneezing where did all those bugs go? Those bugs could end up in your neighbor's kids, a kid down the street, across town? I just saying the more people vaccinated the fewer chances of little kids catching it and dying because of it.


 I disagree. We have never had the flu. We don't put our fingers in our mouths, pick our nose, rub our eyes w/o keeping hygiene in mind. We wash and are aware of the surrounding enviroment. As far as I'm concerned, we gave up our shots for 2 children that we don't even know their names. We have no offspring, and practice excellent personal hygiene. Perhaps this is a good time for parents to teach their kids about being sanitary. I am finding it difficult to understand how this is such a emergency, if so few are getting it. Never had flu as a kid.


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## Renegayde (Nov 2, 2009)

not dealing with facts here so please do not jump me....both of my nieces received flu shots at school...both of them as well as a large percentage of the kids at the school became ill.....now the youngest of the two has swine flu.....according to my sister-in-law they were vacinated for swine flu......the older niece was out for almost 2 weeks but not sure she was tested for swine flu so the general feeling is that she just had the flu or a flu like reaction to the vacination.....No flu shot for me

Todd


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## Wendy (Nov 2, 2009)

In my opinion, the more stuff that is pumped into our bodies will only weaken our own natural resistance over time. Maybe I am wrong but it seems logical to me.


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## SlipperKing (Nov 2, 2009)

Rose, It doesn't happen quite this way "_So wouldn't the more people being vaccinated also encourage this virus to mutate & thus become stronger?"_ Look at the small pox virus, It was suppose to be wiped out from the world because of a energetic vaccine program. Of course it's still out there in a few spots. Small pox would also make a great bioterrorist tool because very few young people have immunity to it, (That's another topic!) You could say the virus is getting weaker as it mutates but that's not exactly right. The virus is adapting to it's host. The host can still be miserable but not dead! No living organism wants to kill off it's food supply!
That's want happen to the first HIV stains. They were so virulent that the host die before the virus had a chance to spread.
You all remember the Bird Flu that hit Southern Asia a few years ago? That was a H5N1 flu virus crossing over to humans. Why was there such a big scare with this one? And it was contained, for now! It had a 50% kill ratio that's why. Humans hadn't been expose to such a large drift in surface antigens from a flu virus that we had no natural defense to it. The Influenza virus is one of the fastest spreading viruses we have combined with the ablitiy to mutate it's suface antigens can translate to serious population damage.


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## Lanmark (Nov 2, 2009)

It's true that good nutrition, good rest and good hygiene go a long way toward promoting health and resistance to disease. For many of you this may be enough. It's good to remind ourselves that from 1918 to 1920 anywhere from 3% to 6% of the world's population died from infection by a variant of the H1N1 virus, and most of those victims were young healthy people with strong immune systems. I eat a healthy diet, get plenty of sleep and I'm nigh unto obsessive about washing my hands and not touching my face without washing my hands first or using an alchohol-based sanitizer product. I'm very aware of cross contamination as well. I even spray my mail with lysol just in case the mail carrier is sick  but I've been terribly sick for the past couple of years. A bout with any kind of flu could easily put me six feet under. 

Still, having never been exposed to the so-called swine flu virus in my lifetime, I'd much rather get my exposure to it via vaccination with dead viruses than from taking a sneeze in the face from an infected child. Pumping my arm full of dead viruses isn't the same as pumping my arm full of heroin. It won't make me sick. I might have an immune response, yes, but that is the whole purpose of the shot. It strengthens the immune system. It doesn't weaken it. I expect to feel a little sore and blah for a day or two after getting vaccinated. It's better than having my lungs dissolved by the living virus, although in reality, that actually happens to only a very few people who contract the H1N1 virus. There's a lot of hype out there and many people are panicked. Others are just the opposite. I'm somewhere in the middle. Concerned, yes. Panicked, no. 

Do I trust the pharmaceutical companies wholeheartedly in everything they do? No, but the manufacturing process used for creating flu vaccine is not a secret. It's not something new. The only thing different about the swine flu vaccination is that the virus used to create it is new to most of us. Any physician should know and understand very well the basics of how flu vaccine is made and what it contains. If your physician doesn't know these things, I suggest finding another physician as fast as you can. Flu vaccine manufacturing is standardized and it is a well-documented and well-known process. It's not a mystery. It's not a government conspiracy. It's not big business out to get us. Most importantly, few if any ordinary citizens are being forced to get flu vaccinations of any kind. Everyone has a choice. Actually I don't have a choice since neither the vaccination for H1N1 nor for the seasonal flu has been made available to me yet. 

Read about it. Inform yourselves. Learn. The flu vaccination isn't for everyone, but for many it can be lifesaving. Here's a good article which explains some basics including some information about the mutation of viruses. http://www.associatedcontent.com/ar..._and_the_flu_shot_make_an_informed.html?cat=5 Goldenrose, it doesn't sound to me as if mutation normally causes a virus to be weaker. It also seems to me that viruses will mutate whether or not vaccinations for them are in widespread use. Viruses simply mutate often. That's the nature of these tiny beasts. One thing I think it is important to know is that viruses can become resistant to antiviral drugs just as bacteria can become resistant to antibiotics. I'm already hearing rumors about Tamiflu resistance, but as far as I know, Relenza is still quite effective.


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## SlipperKing (Nov 3, 2009)

Clark E said:


> I disagree. We have never had the flu. We don't put our fingers in our mouths, pick our nose, rub our eyes w/o keeping hygiene in mind. We wash and are aware of the surrounding enviroment. As far as I'm concerned, we gave up our shots for 2 children that we don't even know their names. We have no offspring, and practice excellent personal hygiene. Perhaps this is a good time for parents to teach their kids about being sanitary. I am finding it difficult to understand how this is such a emergency, if so few are getting it. Never had flu as a kid.


 


Renegayde said:


> not dealing with facts here so please do not jump me....both of my nieces received flu shots at school...both of them as well as a large percentage of the kids at the school became ill.....now the youngest of the two has swine flu.....according to my sister-in-law they were vacinated for swine flu......the older niece was out for almost 2 weeks but not sure she was tested for swine flu so the general feeling is that she just had the flu or a flu like reaction to the vacination.....No flu shot for me
> 
> Todd


Clark
You can be the most sanitary person in the world and hold the record in the Guinness book but it only takes you being expose to a mist of virus to come down with the flu. The virus is spread by aerisols created by coughing or sneezing and you did nothing to break your sanitary status except walk outside.

Todd, depending on where your sister-in-law lives, the time of the year the infection occured and the type of testing done determines if the girls have/had Swine flu. It takes about two weeks to get a good immune response to the flu after you had the vaccine. So if you're expose to the virus soon after the vaccination then, yes, you will likely get sick. Here in Houston, between April/May and the first of Oct if you came down with the flu, you were pretty much guarantied to have H1N1. Since the the first week or so of Oct we have started picking up Influenza B viruses from patients which is part of the seasonal flu. There are two types of Influenza, the highly mutigenic A strain and the B strain. In the vaccine there are three virues 2 strains of A and B virus. Whatever is going a round in the Southern hemisphere during their winter is what we make vaccine to for our upcoming winter. Then it is reverse, whatever our winter flu is, the southern half of the world is making vaccine to. H1N1 (swine) doesn't follow the rules. It can infect anytime of the year in any season. To ID H1N1 it takes a highly specialized test, PCR molecular testing to do that. These "Doc-in-a-box" doctor clinics can't do that. They may send it off for testing but I doubt it. They may do the quickie test, 15 minutes and you know flu A, B or negative Then they assume it's H1N1 if their quickie test is flu A positive.


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## Renegayde (Nov 3, 2009)

my older niece got sick withing a week of being vacinated....my younger niece got sick about three weeks or so after the vacination....you are correct though in that they took her to the Dr. and were told I believe the same day that she tested positive for H1N1....the live here in IL and it was just this past week that my younger niece was diagnosed

Todd


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## emydura (Nov 3, 2009)

The H1N1 vaccination was released in Australia the same week I headed over to Nepal. I asked the doctor about it and they told me that there hadn't been enough testing before its release. They advised me not to have it until more knowledge of its side effects were known. They told me they weren't prepared to have it themselves.

I always have an annual flu vaccination. Our workplace actually pays for it. I've never had the flu in my life. The flu vaccinations only cover a few of the common ones. It doesn't cover all flues. And people often mistake the common cold as the flu. The flu is way more serious. It kills thousands of people a year in Australia alone. 

David


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## Kavanaru (Nov 3, 2009)

Lanmark said:


> Do I trust the pharmaceutical companies wholeheartedly in everything they do? No, but the manufacturing process used for creating flu vaccine is not a secret. It's not something new. The only thing different about the swine flu vaccination is that the virus used to create it is new to most of us. Any physician should know and understand very well the basics of how flu vaccine is made and what it contains. If your physician doesn't know these things, I suggest finding another physician as fast as you can. Flu vaccine manufacturing is standardized and it is a well-documented and well-known process. It's not a mystery. It's not a government conspiracy. It's not big business out to get us. Most importantly, few if any ordinary citizens are being forced to get flu vaccinations of any kind. Everyone has a choice. Actually I don't have a choice since neither the vaccination for H1N1 nor for the seasonal flu has been made available to me yet.



Landmark has out it exactly how it is  I must admit I need to smile everytime I read that there are not enough tests done to show the efficacy of this "new" vaccine  and I am sure that if at the end some people who were vaccinated get the swine flu, the press will make a big shwo around it... 

now some facts that most people forget or just ignore:

1.- Flu virus is extremely infectious, and although it is recommended as a good practice to keep good hygiene, this is also not a 100% warranty you will not be infected. A good health is more important in this case than washing your hands! Good nutrition and strong inmune system are the key! however, not yet 100%.
2.- Flu vaccine is effective only in about 60% of the population (keep this in mind, as you probably will belong to the 40% which does not get 100% inmunity!) Please do not blame the Pharma industry for this if you get the Flu even though you had a flu shot!! Blame your Phycisian for not telling you this!! 
3.- Flu kills a couple of thousands people every year ("and nobody cares!" <- common argument given by people thinking of Swine Flu and tammiflu and Co as a "XXXX" conspiracy to reduce world population or making money) Swine Flu has killed just less than a couple of hundreds.... hhhmmm.. true, but needs to be seen in detail  If you see plain numbers, I agree totall with these statements. However, if you check percentages, we have a different story. At the very beginning, the Swine Flu was very aggresive and "deadly". If that virus train would have infected the same number of people infected every season with "Normal" Flu virus, we would have a couple of millions instead of a couple of thousands death cases. That's the reasons why the WHO was so alarmed, and everybody was running around to increase the production of Tamiflu and create the vaccine.
4.- The scenario changed within a short time, but the risk is still very high that we come back to the original one. As has been already mentioned here, flu virus mutate a lot, and this is teh reason why youcan get the Flu every year. You do not have a new virus species every year, but a variation of the previous ones. Swine Flu virus mutated very quick, and became a lot less aggressive and almost no lethal (I can testify of 5 confirmed cases in my office, which went with swine flu but even milder than normal flu, almost like a regular cold!) What doe sthis all mean? ONLY, that we have had more time to get ready... same wway as the virus mutated to become less aggressive, it can mutate to become even more aggressive. Even worst, we still have some strains of avian flu "fyling" around. Ifthis two viruses get mixed, then we have a big BIG problem here, as the avian virus is extremely aggressive and lethal (remember the spanish Flu, which has been confirmed long ago to be avian flu)
5.- Pharmaceuticals, Secondary Effects and Press... All, and I say ALL, medicines have secondary effects, and there is no, I say NO, medicine, which provides 100% protection! This is a fact, which cannot be denied. All medicines are tested before the are authorized by Health Authorities to go into the market. The rules are very strict, the test are strongly regulated, and this applies to almost everywhere in the world (some countries don't have these rules, but all big Pharma companies work under these rules, otherwise tehy will not be allowed to launch their product in the most important markets) In the case of USA, it is the FDA who decideds which product is allowed and which not. Authorization for marketing is given after putting on the balance Benefits Vs. Risk.
You would probably be surprised to know that some over the counter products you buy are even more lethal than those "finger pointed" by the press as dangerous. It all depends on the coverage given by the press to specific events. The swine Flu is the current "Gold mine" for yellow press: "Not enough tests done"; "Adjuvants used are deadly"; "Guvernamental Conspiration to reduce world population"; "BIG business between Goverment and Pharma Companies", and so on.... easy, people are not well informed about Swine Flu, and are extremelly afraid of it. Anything new in the press, sells! And we must accept, that humans are sensationalists by nature! news like "100000000000 people save by Tamiflu" are much less interesting than "*YOUR Neighbour died after taking Tamiflu* and 3 bottles of Tequila!"  For example, and going to extrems, did you know that a lot of people die or have very serious adverse events after taking Aspirin or acetaminophen (Paracetamol) but almost not a single case is ever covered by the press (same for many of the anti-depressive and pain killers sold over the counter in the USA), but the few cases of people dying after taking Ecstasy are almost always covered by the press? Note: I am not saying that Ecstasy is not dangerous! I am giving an example of over devilization of a prodcut by the press!!

Final Note: if someone wants to know... yes... I work for one of the Pharmas involved in the swine flu pandemia control... and no, I do not use all our products, have never taken Tamiflu and will also not get the Swine Flu shot - even though I had the regular flu shot this year. I do not believe in world conspiracy to reduce the world population (as the half known none in Spain said in her video) and do agree that some people have used the pandemia to make more money (business is busines and that rules the world!), but I do not fingerpoint at any of the pharma companies involved, as most of them have been over criminalized by the press in this case: Press releases the bad side ofthe story more often than teh good side (No, I am not saying Pharma Companies are angels! but also not devils!)


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## KyushuCalanthe (Nov 3, 2009)

Ramon, thank you for that response.


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## TyroneGenade (Nov 3, 2009)

I'm very skeptical about all this pandemic stuff. I've watched all the hype about SARS end in nothing more spectacular than a handful of out breaks... I've seen the bird flu scare and nothing come of it other than the decimation of the poultry industry in a few countries. So far H1N1 hasn't lived up to the hysteria either...

I have never gotten any flu shots. In 31 years I have had flue 5 times. 2 of those 5 times was in 2006 and 2007 when I was stressed out teaching high school science. My diet was pretty shoddy too. This year I haven't had the flu nor a cold. I'm inclined to think the vitamins and etc I get in by using Herbalife but thats not very scientific. Based on 30+ years of living experience flu is simply a very rare event for me. This is in part, I believe, because I enjoy a healthy diet with lots of vitamin C and essential fatty acids (both very important for immune system function) and regular moderate exercise. The virtues of a healthy diet and moderate exercise are better than any flu vaccine. Flu deaths normally piggy-back in on other healthy conditions such as heart/cardio vascular disease. This tends to be the result of lack of exercise and poor diet (i.e. you are or were fat).

Of course, here in Sunny South Africa the majority of the population do not enjoy a healthy diet and also live at high density. In spite of about 60 H1N1 deaths (compared the 100s of normal flu fatalities this year) there was no epidemic even though hear in South Africa there were millions of people at high risk.

H1N1 is, in my opinion as a rational scientist with no monetary interest in H1N1 research, nothing to worry about.

To add wood on the fire of conspiracy theories:



> _Today any Professor will betray the truth for 100 marks. It would be something unusual if he were only willing to do it for 1000 marks. _
> 
> Otto Warburg to Hans Krebs in 1929 when a loaf of bread in Germany cost only 430 000 000 000 marks a few years before...


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## Kavanaru (Nov 3, 2009)

TyroneGenade said:


> I'm very skeptical about all this pandemic stuff. I've watched all the hype about SARS end in nothing more spectacular than a handful of out breaks... I've seen the bird flu scare and nothing come of it other than the decimation of the poultry industry in a few countries. So far H1N1 hasn't lived up to the hysteria either...



Tyrone, that's more or less for the sam ereasons I gave above. One said, hey people be aware and be ready in case this happens (as there is a chance this happens!), and teh press release (and from many bad informed peopel) will say: "AVIAN FLU will kill all of us soon!!!" Then everybody is waiting for the day of the final judgement to come in less than one week, it does not come, and people say that the first who raised the alert was a liar... If people would have read the advice of the scientific comunitiy, it would have been clear thatit was a "There is a risk ofthis to happen, we need to be aware of it and be prepared to act in case i thappens" instead of a "The KILLER Virus is here and waiting for you!!!". That was the message I use to send all my friends and family all the time... though, many of them did not listen to it anyway 

Footnote: Avian Flu does not have the same press coverage as before (Swine Flu is currently more interesting ), but the risk is still there, as it was before... IMO, it is much much much better, that the press does not cover it anymore that often, so we can avoid that global paranoia we had a couple of years ago...




TyroneGenade said:


> H1N1 is, in my opinion as a rational scientist with no monetary interest in H1N1 research, nothing to worry about.


Under the current status, I totally agree with you  which means: The virus is not that lethal anymore; the risk of mutating to killer virus is there, but also not very probable; there is treatment in case you get the flu (OK, in some countries/regions, it is not easily available... but this is a different discussion too)

my message: enjoy the life as it is! ready!!

P.S.- I was ver yshocked as I read an article with recommendations for the parents and kids in the USA on how to behave during halloween: Don't let your kids eat these or those candys (some can not be washed others will destroy their teeth)! Wash all candies before your kids eat them (can be infected with swine flu virus!! <- what about other dieseases in former years?); have a bottle of desinfectant gel with you and use everytime before knocking at each door, and immediately after too (the door may be infected with swine flu virus!!)... C'mon...


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## Clark (Nov 3, 2009)

Fortunately, we know a couple of families whose child has had H1N1. Kid gets sick, stays home from school, and nobody else in the family gets the flu. 
I was on the CDC site last night-
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/

If I'm reading this correctly, of the nearly 25,000 cases so far for 2009, there have been 74 pediatric deaths. 
Just a thought, how many parents mistake school for daycare, or are distracted and don't realize their child is sick. 

Last paragraph. 
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,571008,00.html?test=latestnews


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## Lanmark (Nov 3, 2009)

I just got word that my cousin's 7 year old son is being sent home from the hospital today. He and his 2 year old sister were admitted two days ago with high fevers and diagnoses of probable H1N1 infection. Both are being treated with Tamiflu. The 2 year old girl is still being treated with antibiotics for pneumonia as well, but she's expected to be discharged within a day or two. 

Hopefully this whole H1N1 pandemic thing will settle down. Keeping things in perspective is important. I try my best to not overreact one way or the other. There's no point to getting all worried and stressed over it, but I don't want to be careless and ignore the situation entirely either. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. I'm hoping for the best.

:wink:


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## Ruth (Nov 3, 2009)

My husband and I have been getting the flu shots for about 10 years. In all of those years, I remember getting the flu about once, and that could have been a bad cold. I tend my 5 month old granddaughter every afternoon, and I certainly wouldn't want her to get sick so we got the flu shot and the H1N1 vaccine. I watch and read the news quite regularly, and I haven't heard of anyone getting the flu from the shot. I have heard of about 125 children dying of the Swine flu since April. I don't want to take that chance with my granddaughter.
As far as being clean and sanitary, washing our hands etc., the opportunity to pick up germs is everywhere. How about handling money, pushing the grocery cart, opening a door. There are so many ways to get exposed that we don't think about. 

On another note, how many orchid growers take extra care when they administer pesticides, herbicides, fertilizers and all of the other stuff that we expose ourselves too so we can have beautiful orchids. If you read the msds sheets on those, you probably wouldn't use any of them. What is a little flu shot in comparison to those.


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## Candace (Nov 3, 2009)

> On another note, how many orchid growers take extra care when they administer pesticides, herbicides, fertilizers and all of the other stuff that we expose ourselves too so we can have beautiful orchids. If you read the msds sheets on those, you probably wouldn't use any of them. What is a little flu shot in comparison to those.



Guilty as charged. :<


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## Kavanaru (Nov 3, 2009)

Ruth said:


> If you read the msds sheets on those, you probably wouldn't use any of them. What is a little flu shot in comparison to those.



Do they have an msds sheet!!? oke:


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## cnycharles (Nov 3, 2009)

I know in this area (utica rome, ny) there are lots of kids that have the flu. Not so many older people as they were probably exposed to it in the '60's as I've heard, and several co-workers that have kids say that their kids have had the flu. I've heard that down in nyc area there aren't as many. Being healthy doesn't always do it, though it helps; during ww1, thousands who died were young and relatively healthy but didn't have any antibodies, and they were exposed to the flu which had had two types join together, because troops were near where they were storing pigs and poultry, which allowed both types to merge together and go crazy. Maybe I'm lucky that I'm not at work for a little while as there often are people who don't use healthy practices, and are around lots of kids that probably aren't healthy. Not sure if the h1n1 shot is available in this area yet, and not sure about getting it.
One winter I spent months cleaning a hedgerow at my uncle's farm outside in the blustery bitter cold, and never got sick. I was also not around people to get bugs, which helps a lot. I think sometimes people go too far with the whole antibiotic soaps and hand washes, but maybe for kids it might not be a bad idea though they would probably be having to wash every ten seconds!


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## goldenrose (Nov 4, 2009)

This is a website that I use to frequent, they now have my new email address! Anyway this sheds more light on the subject. I'm wondering how many Drs that are recommending flu shots are also telling people that due to the continued use of mercury &/ aluminum in the vaccinates can open the door for a host of neurological problems, such as MS, Alziehmers & encyphalitis? There is a long audio interview with a top neurologist, as well as others links you could access if you sign up. It's touted as being safe & being tested - guess how long the testing period is ? Read & listen to find out!
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...arned-About-the-Great-Swine-Flu-Pandemic.aspx


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## Lanmark (Nov 4, 2009)

goldenrose said:


> This is a website that I use to frequent, they now have my new email address! Anyway this sheds more light on the subject. I'm wondering how many Drs that are recommending flu shots are also telling people that due to the continued use of mercury &/ aluminum in the vaccinates can open the door for a host of neurological problems, such as MS, Alziehmers & encyphalitis? There is a long audio interview with a top neurologist, as well as others links you could access if you sign up. It's touted as being safe & being tested - guess how long the testing period is ? Read & listen to find out!
> http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...arned-About-the-Great-Swine-Flu-Pandemic.aspx



There seem to be a lot of faithful followers of Dr. Russell Blaylock, the person who is featured in the link given above. Some of his biggest fans are Sarah Palin. Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh. It also appears there is widespread controversy and a lot of accusations of fraud, quackery and charlatry surrounding this man. Dr. Blaylock may be a retired neurosurgeon, but a large percentage of what he preaches today goes directly against established medical knowledge and practice. There are truths laced in and throughout everything he teaches and preaches, but it's wise to take note he is also in the business of selling tickets to his touring lectures, books, audio and video products, nutritional supplements and so forth. The more scare and hype he can generate, the more money he makes. 

I simply don't believe he speaks the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I guess it's up to each of us to decide who and what to believe.


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## smartie2000 (Nov 4, 2009)

I am sick with H1N1 right now. I can barely think straight so I'm just going to mention that I have never gotten so sick so fast. I felt like nightmare or death, but not because I am so scared to die. I'm on Tamiflu right now and I think I am having some progesses. My symtoms started sun and got really bad on monday, so it has been four days of sickness. Unfortunately I reacted poorly compared to some other individuals


I missed two university exams and there is still an assignment for friday. I don't think one prof realizes how tough it is to write emails in this state,

If I could have prevented this I would have...Halloween got me. I will have to read the rest of the thread later


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## SlipperFan (Nov 4, 2009)

Get well, Fren! Take care of yourself -- we need you here.


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## Lanmark (Nov 4, 2009)

Ditto! Please fight hard and get well soon, Fren!


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## Yoyo_Jo (Nov 4, 2009)

Aww, poor Fren. Wishing your a speedy recovery buddy.


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## cnycharles (Nov 4, 2009)

Hello Fren, 
I also had the flu before my finals when first in school, some teachers don't pay any attention to anything but their schedules and have little sympathy. I hope you recover well and things work out for you


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## Ernie (Nov 4, 2009)

Got my immunization today. No line at all. At 3:27, found out U Illinois Med Center (it's next door to the College of Pharmacy where I work) had them on my way to a seminar. Hopped over to the hospital, got the shot, and was back in the College and in the lecture hall at 3:31. No line. BUT, it's for UI employees only, so you other Chicago folks might not get satisfaction if you storm the UI hospital tomorrow. 

Seemed like a good idea for me since I ride a train with 1400 other people (no joke) twice a day. 

-Ernie


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## Lanmark (Nov 5, 2009)

Ernie said:


> Got my immunization today.
> -Ernie




OMG and you didn't DIE from it? 

I wonder how long until your toes fall off. 

The government can hear your thoughts now, though, and that is truly scary! 

I bet Obama will steal your personal information right out of your mind to make a birth certificate for himself...right after he shuts down the internet and kills a few grandmothers. :arrr:
oke:

:rollhappy:
:evil:


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## PaphMadMan (Nov 5, 2009)

Lanmark said:


> OMG and you didn't DIE from it?
> 
> I wonder how long until your toes fall off.
> 
> ...



Lanmark, you are my hero. Unfortunately, some in this forum will miss your sarcasm and take your statements as fact. They saw it on the internet, it must be true...


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## goldenrose (Nov 5, 2009)

I'm sorry to hear that frem has a bad case of the flu. Yes I said the flu, were you tested specifically for H1N1? Seems that the majority of cases of flu are not being tested but are automatically being labeled as H1N1. A big part of why I'm not choosing to be vaccinated for either is -what are the other ingredients in the vaccines & I can't remember the last time I've had the flu. I do recall a 24 hour bug & even that was a long time ago, was it even the flu? Doesn't seasonal flu come on fast? The symptoms frem describes sounds like seasonal flu to me. I'm in an easy situation compared to others, I don't have children but I do work at Jewel, exposed to fellow workers & all the general public that walks thru the door.
I think most of us are aware that there are studies that will support which ever side of the fence that you are on, which doesn't make it easy for us trying to make a decision. 
Lanmark states his opinion of Dr. Blaylock, what's your opinion of Dr. Mercola?
In the newsletter today there is a link that goes over the ingredients of the 4 approved H1N1 vaccines in the U.S., the length of any studies done on these vaccines, who should or shouldn't get it, it's efficacy and by the way the info is taken off the inserts included with vaccine. 
These are Mercola's final thoughts-

"How Effective is the H1N1 Vaccine, Really?

"Specific levels of HI antibody titers post-vaccination with inactivated influenza virus vaccine have not been correlated with protection from influenza virus. In some human studies, antibody titers of 1:40 or greater have been associated with protection from influenza illness in up to 50% of subjects." 

You will find that paragraph in all the vaccine inserts. 

What that paragraph says, is that the vaccine only works in half, or less, of those individuals who attain the specified level of seroconversion after vaccination. The FDA defines seroconversion as achieving an antibody titer of 1:40. 

This means that if a vaccine was 100 percent effective at achieving this level of seroconversion, it would protect up to 50 percent of the recipients of the vaccine.

But none of the vaccines are 100 percent effective at achieving seroconversion. 

CSL's vaccine insert, for example, (see pages 11-12), states that their H1N1 vaccine provides seroconversion for:

•48.7 percent of people aged 18-65 
•34 percent for seniors, 65 and older 
That means that, at best, their vaccine works in one out of every four people! (49 percent of 50 percent). 

Which, of course, means that the vaccine does NOT work in three out of every four people… 


Is it REALLY worth it? 

Final Thoughts

Hopefully, this compilation of data will help you weigh the risks and benefits, to make a more educated decision for yourself and your family."


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## Ernie (Nov 5, 2009)

This is like a taxonomy discussion. 

If you think it'll hurt you, don't take it. If you want it, get it. No matter what there will be people that got it that'll say it made them sick or dead. And there'll be just as many peole that say it saved them from swine flu. Whatever. 

It cost me nothing but 4 minutes of my life. Plus I got to see some cute nurses. 

-Ernie


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## Clark (Nov 5, 2009)

A cute nurse can cure alot of ailments.

Of my peer group, it is 50/50, for and against.
One family, the husbands sleeping on the couch over the debate.
Another family wasn't getting it until tradegy struck one of the childs schoolmates.
Toxic subject.
And yes, the possiblity does exist of getting sick from the shot, as my wife does attendence at her job. Coworker had to leave work less than 24hrs. after receiving dose.
I am not pushing views to one side or another, but at this moment both of us will continue to decline.


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## Lanmark (Nov 5, 2009)

Dr. Mercola is also a controversial figure whose credibility has come into question time and time again. He has been cited with warnings at least twice by the FDA for making false claims about products he has offered for sale. He has a large newsletter and internet operation and he is out to make money in much the same way as Dr. Blaylock does. Birds of a feather flock together. Is Dr. Mercola sincere? Is he deceptive? I think it is a matter of personal opinon. His advice is often contrary to widely held scientific beliefs, something which makes him attractive to certain segments of the population. My own opinion is that I do not wish to live as humanity lived in the Middle Ages. Modern science, while far from perfect, has certainly made my quality of life much better than that of most people who lived during the dark ages.

I do not agree with Dr. Mercola's scaremongering about the H1N1 vaccination. He refutes for the most part an H1N1 pandemic. An immediate local test for H1N1 isn't available, and the CDC has decided not to test every single person exhibiting a fever and other flu symptoms. Dr. Mercola has used these facts to support his statements implying some sort of conspiracy. I think there is no conspiracy. I think the medical community is responding in an educated and responsible manner to a virus which demands our attention.
_________________________

Regarding the information taken from the medical inserts which come with each vial of vaccine, I think Rose and Dr. Mercola are reading far more into it than what it is intended to say.

Let's take a look at this statement: _"Specific levels of HI antibody titers post-vaccination with inactivated influenza virus vaccine have not been correlated with protection from influenza virus. In some human studies, antibody titers of 1:40 or greater have been associated with protection from influenza illness in up to 50% of subjects."_

This statement explains that it hasn't yet been determined beyond a shadow of a doubt the exact mechanism of action by which the vaccine works. The researchers can't say for certain that the protection from influenza which people gain after being vaccinated is a result of specific levels of HI antibodies which have been measured in test groups of post-vaccinated individuals. Some studies, however, have already shown an association between elevated antibody titers and a quantifiable exhibited level of protection from influenza illness. The numbers given are not absolutes. They only show the levels of protection which scientists have so far been able to associate with the vaccination using very rigorous standards and controls. The actual levels of protection provided by this vaccine are most likely higher than the numbers given here.

In other words, they know the vaccination works. Already they have seen evidence of this in vaccinated individuals. They're pretty sure they know why the vaccination works, too, but they don't yet want to state it as an absolute fact until more research has been completed and proof obtained. The evidence they have gathered so far points in the direction of elevated antibody titers.

I'm really glad our scientific medical community is this meticulous and cautious. They don't want to throw around numbers and statements willy nilly and call them facts until they have ample proof that what they are saying is true.

________________

Now let's take a look at some statements found on medical inserts placed in the packages of other medications which are being used with great success by millions of people today.

*Lopressor* is a well-known beta blocker drug commonly used by patients with heart failure. This drug is very effective at lowering blood pressure. It is used by vast numbers of people, often in combination with other medications to manage heart disease. It saves and prolongs lives. Here are two statements from this drug's insert:

_"The mechanism of the antihypertensive effects of beta-blocking agents has not been elucidated. However, several possible mechanisms have been proposed:"_

_"The precise mechanism of action of Lopressor in patients with suspected or definite myocardial infarction is not known."_

*Elocon* is a very widely used skin ointment. It is a topical corticosteroid which reduces itching and inflammation. It is prescribed for itchy rash type skin conditions such as psoriasis and atopic dermatitis. Doctors prescribe it and patients use it because it works. Here is a statement from the insert which comes with Elocon:

_"The mechanism of the anti-inflammatory activity of the topical steroids, in general, is unclear. However, corticosteroids are thought to act by the induction of phospholipase A2 inhibitory proteins, collectively called lipocortins."_

*Acetaminophen/Paracetamol aka Tylenol* is something almost everyone has used at one time or another. Let's see what the Tylenol company has to say on the inserts which it includes in hospital-bound packages of their product:

_"Although the exact site and mechanism of analgesic action is not clearly defined, acetaminophen appears to produce analgesia by elevation of the pain threshold. The potential mechanism may involve inhibition of the nitric oxide pathway mediated by a variety of neurotransmitter receptors including N-methyl-D-aspartate and substance P."_
________________

I can't imagine what life would be like if we only utilized things in this world which we understood and could explain completely.
________________

Flu vaccinations aren't for everyone. Most people aren't sensitive to the trace amounts of Thimerosol found in vaccines. The benefits of vaccination far outweigh the risks in my opinion and in the opinions of most people in the medical and scientific communities. Not everyone who gets vaccinated will avoid getting sick with the flu. Not everyone who refuses to get vaccinated will inevitably get sick with the flu either. Not everyone who gets sick with the flu will die from it. The way I see it, it's just a little prick and I'll take it any day if it will help me avoid coming down with a nasty little bug which will make me feel like crap for days on end. My choice is mine. Yours is yours. What's it gonna be?


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## smartie2000 (Nov 5, 2009)

goldenrose said:


> I'm sorry to hear that fren has a bad case of the flu. Yes I said the flu, were you tested specifically for H1N1? Seems that the majority of cases of flu are not being tested but are automatically being labeled as H1N1.



nope I was not tested. He just said that he would swab me but they were getting too many positive swabs and we are not giving them out anymore. So my diagonsis was based on the symptoms and assumptions. I've never had a flu quite like this and one that progressed to quickly though. But I think I might have to get the shot anyway since I don't know whether I have H1N1 or just a really bad normal flu.

I'm better today...Hurray for Tamiflu


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## ohio-guy (Nov 5, 2009)

My understanding is that the test for the h1n1 flu is rather expensive at about 200$, and takes about 2 days to get back in the best cases. As it is there is often a backlog and it can take more than a week to get results. 
Often, those that are testing positive for flu A by the rapid test (performed right in the care givers office oftentimes) in fact are showing a cross reaction to h1n1, and the assumption is made that these positive flu tests actually represent h1n1. Tamiflu is an antiviral drug to reduce the viral load and thus lessen the severity of symptoms, but works best if started in the first 48 hrs of symptoms. 
Most people don't get to their doctor in the first day or so, and would complain to have to wait 2 or more days, or maybe a week, to get back a test that will cost 200$, and then be too late to start the treatment....
People should hopefully have some kind of relationship of trust with their doctor, and if he feels you have the flu, and tamiflu is prescribed, accept that they know what they are talking about. But a lot of people find it easier to trust some remote talking head who feeds on their doubts.

edited to reflect the correction noted below by Ramon


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## Kavanaru (Nov 5, 2009)

ohio-guy said:


> Tamiflu is a drug to lessen the severity of symptoms, but works best if started in the first 48 hrs of symptoms.
> Most people don't get to their doctor in the first day or so, and would complain to have to wait 2 or more days, or maybe a week, to get back a test that will cost 200$, and then be too late to start the treatment....



I need to disagree here... completely!! *Tamiflu is NOT a treatment to lessen the severity of the symptoms* (you have Aspirin and Acetaminophen for that if you want!)

Tamiflu is an antiviral drug which prevents the virus to attack new cells, and therefore reducing its reproduction in the body. The FLU virus can reproduce extremely quick. Thumb-rule: the most virus you have in your body the stronger the Flu Symptoms and and the weaker your health. For this reason, it is recommended to start Tamiflu treatment within 48h after the first symptoms start! One ofthe recommendations given is "Start Tamiflu as soon as you have flu symptoms, independently whether you will have a swine flu test done or not!" (which by the way, is not as expensive as people say! 200$ per test is quite high! Ifthat's the price in the USA.. WOW!)

Of course, as mentionned above, if you start Tamiflu treatment at an early stage, you will have less virus in your body, and also milder symptoms.


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## Ron-NY (Nov 5, 2009)

well...the Flu epidemic of 1918 killed an estimated 50 million people, 1/5 of the world's population at that time. When it emerged in the spring of 1918 a few people died, when it struck in the fall of that year it was more rampant...some people died within hours of the first symptom others it took days. Their lungs filled with fluid and they drowned. We will again see this, maybe not with H1N1 but with another epidemic. I know these stats for my grandfather lost one of his wives to that flu. 


I am not a proponent of flu vaccines but I did get a regular flu shot this year. A couple of weeks ago I came down with the Flu. I am assuming it was the H1N1. For me it was fairly mild. low grade fever, body aches, mild cough, fatigue, headache...near the end I had stomach and intestinal symptoms as well. It took about a week to recover.

It needs to be a personal decision but consider prior stats when making a decision.


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## Kavanaru (Nov 5, 2009)

Ron-NY said:


> well...the Flu epidemic of 1918 killed an estimated 50 million people, 1/5 of the world's population at that time. When it emerged in the spring of 1918 a few people died, when it struck in the fall of that year it was more rampant...some people died within hours of the first symptom others it took days. Their lungs filled with fluid and they drowned.
> 
> We will again see this, maybe not with H1N1 but with another.
> I am not a proponent of flu vaccines but I did get a regular flu shot this year. A couple of weeks ago I came down with the Flu. I am assuming it was the H1N1. For me it was fairly mild. low grade fever, body aches, mild cough, fatigue, headache...near the end I had stomach and intestinal symptoms as well. It took about a week to recover.



Ron, you are completely right here. That's why everybody was in alert when the first cases of avian Flu were detected (the Flu from 1918 has been confirmed to be avian flu, and not swine flu). Luckily, the avian flu virus has not learned to jump from human to human, however the swine flu virus, which is closely related to avian flu has done. If by chance both virus or avian plus human flu occur in the same host, there is a high chance that both viruses get mixed, and then you can have a situation like in 1918!!

important to keep in mind is that Flu Symptoms are similar but quite different than normal cold (and you would be surprised how many people mix them up!). Flu symptoms (no matter if human, swine or avian) start very quick and strong, while cold starts quite slow increasing severity with time. So, if your symptoms are quick.. go to the doctor!




P.S.- Not Flu related... it's 11:00 pm here and my flat is more or less dark now. While I am writting these lines I have been "hit" by "flashes" of a very strong and sweet fragrance.. I have been wondering all the time what it is... I just saw now that my cleaning lady moved my Bc Maikai and put it on the top of my acuarium... WOW!!! These plant has been in bloom since 1 week, and I had not been able to detect any fragrance in it.... it is just fantastic!!


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## ohio-guy (Nov 5, 2009)

Ron-NY said:


> well...the Flu epidemic of 1918 killed an estimated 50 million people, 1/5 of the world's population at that time.
> 
> 
> > Actually the world population was higher at the time according to wickipedia....An estimated 50 million people, about 3% of the world's population (approximately 1.6 billion at the time), died of the disease. An estimated 500 million, or 1/3 were infected.[5]
> > Still a tremendous loss of life, and when one sees such numbers, one can understand why vaccines can be a great benefit.


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## Lanmark (Nov 5, 2009)

{ Hey Ramón, how sweet about the Bc Maikai  I love it when orchids are nicely fragrant! }

It is my understanding that the 1918 Flu Pandemic has now been confirmed to have been caused by an H1N1 type variant and _not_ an Avian Flu type, but perhaps I am mistaken. 

There's one thing I would like to make perfectly clear, and I hope everyone will read this. I do not ridicule or "look down upon" anyone who chooses not to get a flu vaccination of any type for any reason. I respect each and every one of you no matter what you choose to do with your personal healthcare decisions. I respect you. I respect your choices.

My main concern and reason for making so many posts here in this thread is that I care. I genuinely like people, especially orchid people  and I'd be very sad to hear that any of you had suffered some terrible complication (or worse) from either the flu illness itself or from getting vaccinated for it. 

I also have a pet peeve for misinformation, and there seems to be a lot of it floating around this year regarding a wide variety of hot topics. Sometimes bits of information presented to us as factual are just exactly that: they are indisputable facts. Sometimes the things we hear are only a matter of opinion. Separating fact from opinion can often be more than a little bit difficult in this day and age.

Regarding both the seasonal flu and the H1N1 flu and their respective vaccines, my sincere hope is that each of you will take the time to ensure that the information you have is factually accurate. An informed decision is a good decision. Whether or not you decide to get a flu vaccination, it is a judgement call, pure and simple. You take what you know and combine it with what you feel is best. For some it's an easy "yes" or "no" and for others it's more complicated than that. Ultimately we must each take ownership of the decisions we make for ourselves, and as friends we can all be supportive of one other's decisions as well. That's what friends do.



I'm so happy to be a part of this great forum and I hope my big pushy posts regarding the flu haven't offended any of you. That was not my intent, but if that is what I accomplished, I hope you will accept my sincere and heartfelt apologies. I plan to stick around a good long while and learn about Slippers. I am a "virgin" after all. :rollhappy:


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## Kavanaru (Nov 5, 2009)

Lanmark said:


> { Hey Ramón, how sweet about the Bc Maikai  I love it when orchids are nicely fragrant! }


  this was really a very nice surprise... I was already surprised that having B nodosa in the background it was not fragrant... 



Lanmark said:


> It is my understanding that the 1918 Flu Pandemic has now been confirmed to have been caused by an H1N1 type variant and _not_ an Avian Flu type, but perhaps I am mistaken.



The virus was isolated from frozen tissues from victims in Alaska or Canada (don't remember correctly).. That's why you also have the "World Conspiracy theory" running around that these FLU pandemic was set on purpose to reduce the world population and solve many of the financial problems we currently have... or something like that... 



Lanmark said:


> I also have a pet peeve for misinformation, and there seems to be a lot of it floating around this year regarding a wide variety of hot topics.


 hit the nail on the head!! 



Lanmark said:


> I am a "virgin" after all. :rollhappy:


 you wish... oke::rollhappy:


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## Wendy (Nov 5, 2009)

Lanmark said:


> There's one thing I would like to make perfectly clear, and I hope everyone will read this. I do not ridicule or "look down upon" anyone who chooses not to get a flu vaccination of any type for any reason. I respect each and every one of you no matter what you choose to do with your personal healthcare decisions. I respect you. I respect your choices.



Thank you. I was getting a bit peeved at the tone of some posts. Myself I choose to fore go the flu shots. Not because of any media hyped rumours but because it is my personal choice. I do however understand the frustration of listening to the naysayers who only listen to rumours. And thank you for caring.


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## SlipperFan (Nov 5, 2009)

I just wish there was enough of both normal flu and H1N1 vaccine available -- I'd like to be able to make a choice!


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## Clark (Nov 5, 2009)

A little clean up for my last post--My wife's coworker had the regular flu shot before she became ill, NOT the H1N1. She just cleared this up with me.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 5, 2009)

The 1918 flu has been shown to be most closely related to Avian flu...so I guess you can say that the 1918 flu was a bird flu...but there are some 1918 genes incorporated into H1N1, leading to the confusion that H1N1 is the same as the 1918 version.
"it's just a little prick and I'll take it any day".....I wish all the little pricks I had to deal with were as useful............................Take care, Eric


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## Jimsox (Nov 5, 2009)

I just get 'em because they make me sick, blame it on my employer for offering them free and get a few more days off!!!


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