# Teacup Paph Wossner Helene



## gonewild (Dec 1, 2006)

I found this one today. (helenae x charlesworthii)
LS is about 7 inches and the height form soil to top of flower is about the same. 





Anyone know anything about this hybrid?


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## Heather (Dec 1, 2006)

Nope, but it is quite adorable!


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## SlipperFan (Dec 1, 2006)

gonewild said:


> Anyone know anything about this hybrid?


It's cute!


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## blueovalgal (Dec 1, 2006)

Beautiful plant and flower!


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## Greenpaph (Dec 1, 2006)

I love it!

:drool:


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## TADD (Dec 2, 2006)

Insanely cool!


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## Barbara (Dec 2, 2006)

Love it. Look at the colour. Hard to believe there can be so much complexity in something so small. 
Barb


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## lylye (Dec 2, 2006)

Lovable hybrid


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## Gideon (Dec 2, 2006)

Lance, that is quite lovely, and a great photo too


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## gore42 (Dec 2, 2006)

Very cool! I thought that helenae and its hybrids were still illegal in the USA.

- Matt


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## TADD (Dec 2, 2006)

I saw a helenae x complex at Normans for sale --> orchids.com


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## gore42 (Dec 2, 2006)

Yeah, but Norman's also had a hangianum hybrid up there, and they are definitely illegal, so that doesn't mean much to me 

- Matt


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## Heather (Dec 2, 2006)

gore42 said:


> Yeah, but Norman's also had a hangianum hybrid up there, and they are definitely illegal, so that doesn't mean much to me
> 
> - Matt



Apparently it doesn't mean much to Norman either. oke:


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## gonewild (Dec 3, 2006)

gore42 said:


> Very cool! I thought that helenae and its hybrids were still illegal in the USA.
> 
> - Matt



I guess that is knowing something about the hybrid. I'm glad I did not bring it home. 

I looked up the registration and _Wossner Helene _was registered by Glanz in 2000. I would assume the parents or pollen were legal in Germany or they would not have registered the hybrid. I also found a statement on the internet that Vietnam had allowed export of P.helenae, but not an official statement only a referral to to it.

Anymore ideas?


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## Kyle (Dec 3, 2006)

I thought Antec has some. They got them from a rescue center, like they got vitnamense. I remember them selling venustum x helenea

They are legal in Canada. Cloud's Orchids sells them, in case any Canadians are interested.


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## gore42 (Dec 3, 2006)

Well, you'll find that our German friends have registered tons of hybrids with species that are generally illegal in the USA. Virtually all of the new Vietnamese species are in cultivation in Germany, but still illegal in the USA due to differences in the enforecement of CITES. Although CITES is international, the way that it is enforced is nation specific. 

Antec may have some helenae (I don't know) but they haven't released any flasks to my knowledge, and that's what would make them legally available in the States.

- Matt


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## cdub (Dec 3, 2006)

I just hope a batch of helenae become legal here in the US because I love these little ones. That photo is great.


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## Sangii (Dec 4, 2006)

this is a cutie !


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## gonewild (Dec 4, 2006)

News Flash:evil: 

This hybrid is not Wossner Helene.

When I photographed the plant I asked the grower what the name was. He said (with Mexican accent) "charlesworthii crossed helena". 
(I did not read the label myself)

I used the online RHS grex finder and entered "charlesworthii" x "helena" and it returned "Wossner Helene" which I assumed to be correct based on the miniature size. 

After the legal status was questioned I went back and read the label myself. The plants are labeled Paph. Helen. The grower was meaning it was a _charlesworthii _cross named "Helen" and not _charlesworthii_ crossed with _helena_.

*Paph. Helen* is _charlesworthii x dayanum_ and was registered in 1900.

So, I only missed the correct hybrid registered name by 100 years.:sob: 

It is interesting the RHS search mixed up _helena_ with _helenae_ since there is a hybrid registered as Helena.

So now does anybody know anything about *Paph. Helen*

The picture is correct and the plant is a teacup size.


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## gore42 (Dec 4, 2006)

I don't know anything about Paph. Helen, although I have to say that I don't see any dayanum in that hybrid... no mottled leaves, no dayanum shape in the bloom, and it's too small... any chance it could be something else?

- Matt


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## Gilda (Dec 4, 2006)

How adorable !!:clap:


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## gonewild (Dec 4, 2006)

gore42 said:


> I don't know anything about Paph. Helen, although I have to say that I don't see any dayanum in that hybrid... no mottled leaves, no dayanum shape in the bloom, and it's too small... any chance it could be something else?
> 
> - Matt



It is clearly labeled "Paph. Helen" as are the other plants in the group.

I've tried to find pictures of any _Paph. dayanum_ cross and there does not seem to be much on the net. Stephen has two _Paph. dayanum_ hybrid pictures on his site but they are only flower pictures and kind of blurry. By looking at those two hybrids it appears that _Paph. dayanum _is not very dominant as a parent.

The foliage of this P. Helen does have slight mottling like _Paph. charlesworthii._

Hopefully someone has knowledge about Paph. Helen and can give some input. Any pictures of any _Paph. dayanum_ hybrid would be helpful to see also. 

Could the miniature size be from a dwarf form of _Paph. charlesworthii_?


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## gore42 (Dec 4, 2006)

Well, just for comparison's sake... here are some links to other dayanum hybrids.

tigrinum x dayanum
http://www.larsen-twins.dk/orch-new/Orc_paph_thumbs/P_dayanum_x_markianum_622-12x.html

Collosum x dayanum
http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/society/paphio/18-saloon/18-tenzi/088.jpg

henryanum x dayanum
http://www.paphiopedilum.org.uk/images/dayanum%20'vincolor'%20x%20henryanum.jpg

dayanum x fairrieanum
http://www.slipperorchids.info/paphdatasheets/sigmatopetalum/dayanum/PaphConstableanum.jpg

- Matt


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## gonewild (Dec 4, 2006)

gore42 said:


> Well, just for comparison's sake... here are some links to other dayanum hybrids.
> 
> henryanum x dayanum
> http://www.paphiopedilum.org.uk/images/dayanum%20'vincolor'%20x%20henryanum.jpg
> ...



Looking at the henryanum x dayanum hybrid I can see where charlesworthii x dayanum could look like the picture of Helen. Now to know if dayanum passes foliar dominance.


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## labskaus (Dec 5, 2006)

If there weren't the unusual colouration of the dorsal and the petals getting broader towards the tips I'd say it is a straight charlesworthii with a curled-back dorsal.
Dayanum should inherit the shape of its dorsal to some extend, and some hairs on thew petals. Also, if you look at Stephens site, all intersectional crosses of paphiopedilum x sigmatopetalum species appear to have broad leaves with at least some mottling.

It is a beautiful flower, though.

Cheers, Carsten


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## gonewild (Dec 5, 2006)

labskaus said:


> If there weren't the unusual colouration of the dorsal and the petals getting broader towards the tips I'd say it is a straight charlesworthii with a curled-back dorsal.
> Dayanum should inherit the shape of its dorsal to some extend, and some hairs on thew petals. Also, if you look at Stephens site, all intersectional crosses of paphiopedilum x sigmatopetalum species appear to have broad leaves with at least some mottling.
> 
> It is a beautiful flower, though.
> ...



I don't think it is straight charlesworthii. Here is a shot of the staminoid.


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## Heather (Dec 5, 2006)

oooh, the plot has thickened since I last read this thread....
I noticed the spotting on the bud...totally going out on a limb here but could there be some villosum or gratixianum influence perhaps?


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## gonewild (Dec 5, 2006)

Heather said:


> oooh, the plot has thickened since I last read this thread....
> I noticed the spotting on the bud...totally going out on a limb here but could there be some villosum or gratixianum influence perhaps?



Bud spots. (Is the spotted part technically the bud?)


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## Heather (Dec 5, 2006)

No, I'd call that the sheath, upon closer inspection.  
But, I think my gratixianum did that. It also had reddis spotting at the base of the leaves (and on the undersides).


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## kentuckiense (Dec 5, 2006)

Heather said:


> No, I'd call that the sheath, upon closer inspection.


Subtending bract 

(I guess that's the "scientific" name. Heck if I know.)


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## GuRu (Dec 5, 2006)

gonewild said:


> Here is a shot of the staminoid.



Hi Lance,

The staminoide looks pretty similar to P. barbigerum. Have a look at this thread from two weeks ago.
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1815
P. barbigerum is appropriate to the size and the look of the whole plant.  
Just a thought!

Best regards from Germany, GuRu.


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## cdub (Dec 5, 2006)

Heather's right about the spotting with influence from gratrixianum, but charlesworthii has the spotted leaves and bracts too. I'd say Guru's on the right track. charlesworthii x barbigerum.

So where can a get one?


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## gonewild (Dec 5, 2006)

cdub said:


> Heather's right about the spotting with influence from gratrixianum, but charlesworthii has the spotted leaves and bracts too. I'd say Guru's on the right track. charlesworthii x barbigerum.
> 
> So where can a get one?



I'm having a tendency to agree with that. The barbigerum staminoid area sure looks the same and the foliage is very much like charlesworthii.

Orchids of Los Osos has a few plants available. Here is a direct link to the sale page.


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## gonewild (Dec 5, 2006)

GuRu said:


> Hi Lance,
> 
> The staminoide looks pretty similar to P. barbigerum. Have a look at this thread from two weeks ago.
> http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1815
> ...



Good observation, barbigerum sure looks like it is in there.


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## slippertalker (Dec 5, 2006)

The plant looks a bit smaller than charlesworthii, and that pretty much dismisses gratrixianum, boxalii, etc. I think it has to be barbigerum or helenae, but I haven't seen the results of any helenae crosses to make that judgement. Helenae is the smallest plant and flower in the entire genus, and my guess is that it will produce quite small hybrids.


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## Heather (Dec 5, 2006)

I don't know, so I'll ask. Does barbigerum have the spotting? Or is that just from the charlesworthii? Interesting! I thought it might just be charlesworthii but the one I had, I got in bud, and I don't think the sheath was spotted. So, I was going on my spotted sheath experience. 

I find all of this very interesting. I hope you don't mind me throwing (incorrect) thoughts out there!


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## gonewild (Dec 5, 2006)

Heather said:


> I don't know, so I'll ask. Does barbigerum have the spotting? Or is that just from the charlesworthii? Interesting! I thought it might just be charlesworthii but the one I had, I got in bud, and I don't think the sheath was spotted. So, I was going on my spotted sheath experience.
> 
> I find all of this very interesting. I hope you don't mind me throwing (incorrect) thoughts out there!



Keep throwing any thoughts you think might be pertinent.
Here is a side shot of charlesworthii.


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## gonewild (Dec 5, 2006)

Here it is side by side with charlesworthii.


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## Heather (Dec 5, 2006)

Well, both certainly have that spotting! I hereby withdraw my possibility, Clearly it is charlesworthii dominant. 


Yummmmm, I love olives!


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## paphreek (Dec 5, 2006)

Here's two Paph (barbigerum x charlesworthii)


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## GuRu (Dec 6, 2006)

paphreek said:


> Here's two Paph (barbigerum x charlesworthii)



The staminoide of the barbigerum relative P. coccinenum is very similar to P. barbigerum but the flower is more reddish / maroon. Have a look at
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1643&page=2
 
One parent of the cross is surely P. charlesworthii the other in my opinion P. barbigerum or P. coccineum not P. helenae (due to the shape of the flower the leafspan and the whole size of the plant).
Keep on seeking!!!
Best regards from Germany, GuRu


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## gonewild (Dec 22, 2006)

I have confirmed the hybrid is _charlesworthii x dayanum_ which is Paph. Helen. 
It is clearly labeled with the parents.

Here is a picture now with 3 blooms open.


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## slippertalker (Dec 22, 2006)

It's interesting that the plant size is diminished compared to charlesworthii since dayanum is a bit larger. Also, I would expect some mottling on the leaves. Sometimes a species can be quite dominant in delivering it's traits, although primary hybrids are usually intermediate between the two species.


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## SlipperFan (Dec 22, 2006)

That's really nice. I love the dorsal.


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## IdahoOrchid (Dec 22, 2006)

I just stumbled on a picture that purports to be helenae

http://www.slipperorchids.info/paphspecies/Paphhelenae1.jpg

and barbigerum x charlesworthii

http://www.slipperorchids.info/paphprimaries/Paphbarbigerumxcharlesworthii1.jpg

and it says it is unregistered!!!!!


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