# hangianum and emersonii



## Stone (Sep 19, 2014)

I know it's probably been covered before but can we have another look at what the successful growers are doing with these two?
Do you grow them the same way? Have you found one technique better than another?
I have a flask coming


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## NYEric (Sep 19, 2014)

I have killed and and am trying to grow both. I have seen photos from Asia and they seem to be doing well in a less water retentive mix than I use. Also, they seem to grow warm. good Luck.


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## Paul (Sep 19, 2014)

I don't know why, but I grow both the same and with much more success with my two hangianum than my two emersonii. hangianum has produced many growths and roots after recovering from the first bloom, emersonii is much slower to recover but it slowly does.
While the seedling I had from Sam is hard to start. I think there is a point when the plant starts to grow faster, as for some species. 
Sam told me to grow a little cooler than average Paphs but brighter.

I think they like warm and humid summers and cooler (drier) winter like in their natural environnement


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## Stone (Sep 20, 2014)

Paul said:


> > I think there is a point when the plant starts to grow faster, as for some species.
> 
> 
> Yes I think it is much easier to start with a big plant but I can only get very small ones.
> ...


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## paworsport (Sep 23, 2014)

Paul said:


> I don't know why, but I grow both the same and with much more success with my two hangianum than my two emersonii. hangianum has produced many growths and roots after recovering from the first bloom, emersonii is much slower to recover but it slowly does.
> While the seedling I had from Sam is hard to start. I think there is a point when the plant starts to grow faster, as for some species.
> Sam told me to grow a little cooler than average Paphs but brighter.
> 
> I think they like warm and humid summers and cooler (drier) winter like in their natural environnement



I have experience with both species and for emersonii I have observed a strong recovery and growth and roots activity after giving dithane and a lot of fertilizer + osmocote. Emersonii needs a lot of food. I add dolomie too every two months. During growing season : hot humid a lot of water (never let the plant dry like micranthum) Both need to be cultivated dryer and cooler from december to end of february. I will test the same micranthum conditions for emer and hang for this period of time


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## eggshells (Sep 23, 2014)

paworsport said:


> I have experience with both species and for emersonii I have observed a strong recovery and growth and roots activity after giving dithane and a lot of fertilizer + osmocote. Emersonii needs a lot of food. I add dolomie too every two months. During growing season : hot humid a lot of water (never let the plant dry like micranthum) Both need to be cultivated dryer and cooler from december to end of february. I will test the same micranthum conditions for emer and hang for this period of time



You are the 3rd or 4th person that I know that had same results after applying mancozeb.


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## Chicago Chad (Sep 23, 2014)

Can either of you explain the relationship between the two?


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## Ozpaph (Sep 23, 2014)

In this country mancozeb often comes mixed with sulphur. Is it the sulphur??


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## Erythrone (Sep 23, 2014)

Dithane contains Mancozeb and Paworsport wrote about dithane.


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## Stone (Sep 24, 2014)

Ozpaph said:


> In this country mancozeb often comes mixed with sulphur. Is it the sulphur??



You can get stright mancozeb here too.


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## SlipperKing (Sep 24, 2014)

Dithane is a great source for Mn and I believe Zn as well.


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## paworsport (Sep 24, 2014)

SlipperKing said:


> Dithane is a great source for Mn and I believe Zn as well.



yes indeed and mancozeb if I 'm not wrong is the active substance in dithane which is a commercial name (I'm not sure some other things must be present in dithane)
I have given recently dithane to my 2 fairrieanum album and one month after application the two plants are greener make new strong roots and nice leaves. Before I have had hard time to grow them. A lack of something I suppose ? I give in 105210 to my paph often and I alternate with 202020 form peters or plant prod fert.


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## eggshells (Sep 24, 2014)

Well I think the idea was because we are fertilizing in diluted amount. Thus we are not giving them enough micros as what they would see in nature. 

If you have read Xavier's paper, there are some plants that can take significant quantities of a certain element. In this case Phal. malipoensis uptake of the element Boron.

From his paper:

"There are plants that can take crazy quantities of some elements, which would be totally deadly to some other plants. When Phalaenopsis malipoensis leaves were analyzed in Germany, the lab contacted me to ask for more samples, as they had never seen 210 ppm of boron in a plant that was still alive. The next batch of fresh wild leaves showed a figure slightly below 200, so the analyses were correct."

What element are we missing? Well that's the questions as I would assume that different plant species will be somewhat different. But folks are noticing improve results after applying mancozeb. Bjorn's with his seedlings/flask (randsii come to mind) and Philippe on his plants. I know of another grower who uses those on adductums too and we all know its hard to establish those. So what are are the ingredients on dithane/mancozeb? Boron, Mn, Zn or does it also contains Fe?


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## eggshells (Sep 24, 2014)

Another thing that came to mind is Paph. ciliolaire. A friend from the Philippines told me that the reason why ciliolaire is hard to grow in culture is because they grow in ultramafic soil in the wild. So that soil perhaps contains Fe, Mn and other minerals.


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## Stone (Sep 24, 2014)

eggshells said:


> > What element are we missing? Well that's the questions as I would assume that different plant species will be somewhat different. But folks are noticing improve results after applying mancozeb. Bjorn's with his seedlings/flask (randsii come to mind) and Philippe on his plants. I know of another grower who uses those on adductums too and we all know its hard to establish those. So what are are the ingredients on dithane/mancozeb? Boron, Mn, Zn or does it also contains Fe?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Rick (Sep 25, 2014)

paworsport said:


> yes indeed and mancozeb if I 'm not wrong is the active substance in dithane which is a commercial name (I'm not sure some other things must be present in dithane)
> I have given recently dithane to my 2 fairrieanum album and one month after application the two plants are greener make new strong roots and nice leaves. Before I have had hard time to grow them. A lack of something I suppose ? I give in 105210 to my paph often and I alternate with 202020 form peters or plant prod fert.



Diavalent cationic metals like Mn and (especially Zn) are great antagonists of K.

My emersonii have taken off on low K and general "starvation" rations.


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## Rick (Sep 25, 2014)

eggshells said:


> Another thing that came to mind is Paph. ciliolaire. A friend from the Philippines told me that the reason why ciliolaire is hard to grow in culture is because they grow in ultramafic soil in the wild. So that soil perhaps contains Fe, Mn and other minerals.



I don't think they are hard to grow.

Rothschildianum is probably a better case of a species growing over ultramafic soil, and another plant that has very well for me giving it less than more.

Studies of tropical forest ultramic soils do not indicate high pH, and the most outstanding crazy element is usually nickel. But leaf tissue analysis of tropical plants over forest ultramafic soils don't generally show much anything different from plants growing over limestone.


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## Rick (Sep 25, 2014)

Once again we are looking at plants growing on limestone cliffs with lots of relatively low dilution water trickling over them. Generally impoverished environments. 

I don't think we are missing anything, but overloading these guys and causing imbalances.


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## Rick (Sep 25, 2014)

I would like to get CxCanh involved in this discussion.

According to Averyanov (with in situ pics) these guys are obligate lithophytes on bare limestone with roots exposed or partially embedded in mosses. Also he list hangianum found in conjunction with henryanum and tranlineanum. Emersonii seem to be found close by (or adjacent hills) but on harder limestone (hangianum on crumbling travertine).

Mike I think you should revisit your thread on crack/crevice dwellers before going into organic media.

Given that henryanum (I'm also not aware of folks having big problems with tranlineanum either) doesn't need exotic micro nutrient chemistry to do well, I seriously doubt that hangianum and emersonii need the kitchen sink treatment to do well.


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## naoki (Sep 25, 2014)

I don't have access to this, but does it have some interesting info?
http://kbd.kew.org/kbd/detailedresult.do?id=367319
If you have an access, I'd like to take a look at it.

Is this what you are talking about, Rick? Or are you looking at his book?

Thanks for the rapeseed info, Mike. Do you compost/ferment it? Without it, I guess most of the minerals aren't accessible, right?


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## Stone (Sep 25, 2014)

Rick said:


> > Mike I think you should revisit your thread on crack/crevice dwellers before going into organic media.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Stone (Sep 25, 2014)

naoki said:


> > Thanks for the rapeseed info, Mike. Do you compost/ferment it? Without it, I guess most of the minerals aren't accessible, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Rick (Sep 25, 2014)

I think there's something more recent This article (which I have) is the March 2005 issue. It's ok and covers much of what's already in the book, and some work he published on a pine tree in the limestone regions. Maybe a few better pics of the habitat and insitu emersonii pics than in the book. I pretty sure there's something more recent in either Orchids or OD.



naoki said:


> I don't have access to this, but does it have some interesting info?
> http://kbd.kew.org/kbd/detailedresult.do?id=367319
> If you have an access, I'd like to take a look at it.
> 
> ...



I'll check to see if that's a good reference to Orchids

It was fairly recent.

I also have his book.


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## Leo Schordje (Sep 30, 2014)

For what it is worth, I started my bonsai on K-Lite. I also located the Controlled release 4 month coated pellet version of K-Lite. I have been very pleased with the performance. I'm into year 2 with the K-Lite on the bonsai. The first year was rough, as I discovered I was under-fertilizing. This year my Japanese Black Pines finally put out the growth I was hoping for after significantly upping my dose rates. Color of my needles is great. My Japanese White pines are a beautiful blue-green, they used to be more yellow green. So all in all, K-Lite seems to be a great all round fertilizer. Rick, I think you hit a home run with this. Key for the trees was they really are heavy feeders. 

With the high boron in Paph malipoense wild collected leaves. Is this observed result an indication of what the plant needs for optimum growth or is this an indication of the species ability to tolerate high environmental presence of this toxic at high doses for most plants? It this a tolerance that allows malipoense to exploit a habitat, there by reduced competition. In the USA the borax salt flats are almost devoid of vegetation due to toxic concentrations of boron. So are leaf contents indications of nutritional needs or adaptation to hostile environments? I don't know the answers. I do know K-Lite, 2 year into usage seems to be an improvement over the generally good results I was getting from the MSU formulations.


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## Leo Schordje (Sep 30, 2014)

I find Paph emersonii and hangianum to be "no problems really" type plants. Some of my Paph emersonii clones I have been growing for over 20 years. My only complaint is that they are both slow growing species. Emersonii in particular is very slow. My plants that are 20 years in my care have bloomed maybe 3 or 4 times in that period, neither bloomed until they were more than 3 growths, which took over 10 years for me to get them up to that size. Of course my culture changed significantly over that period of time, especially my fertilizer programs. My first blooms came when I moved to Dyna-Grow, then more frequent blooms came when MSU was started. I have had one bloom since starting K-Lite, and I expect the other soon, so emersonii seems to be responding favorably, but it certainly is a slow growing species for me. I assume in the wild it grows quicker than what I am experiencing, so I am continuing to look for improvements I can make. But I will take slow with few problems over a fast growing disease prone plant any day. 

Hangianum is relatively new for me so I don't have a lot to say about it, though it seems easy enough and grows much quicker than emersonii in my conditions.


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## Linus_Cello (Sep 30, 2014)

What is the controlled release 4 month coated pellet version of K-Lite? Where did you get it? Can you post a web link to a vendor?


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## Happypaphy7 (Oct 4, 2014)

Stone said:


> naoki said:
> 
> 
> > Yes it must be mieralized by bacterial action before it becomes available.
> ...


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## Trithor (Oct 4, 2014)

Very interesting thread!


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## Stone (Oct 4, 2014)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > I used to have it as a kid, but on my non-orchid plants. didn't grow orchids then.
> ...


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## Leo Schordje (Oct 7, 2014)

Thanks Mike for the link to Tanaka's page. 

Fertilizer cakes are a standard method frequently used by the bonsai people. Often affectionately referred to as "poo balls". I have yet to "make friends" with using them. I find they create their own set of problems. When the cakes break down the sediment is fine grained, which will eventually block the air spaces in the media for both my bonsai and my orchids. Often in a shorter period of time than my preferred repotting schedule. I don't want to repot my older pines more than once every 4 or 5 years. It only takes maybe 2 seasons for poo balls to clog up the air voids in my mix, water doesn't drain, and then I have to be very cautious with watering to avoid rotting roots. 

Fertilizer cake is interesting, on bonsai, if placed on a tree with a healthy mycorrhizal colony, you will see in the early morning when the air is humid the cake enveloped by mycelium, the mycorhiza feeding on the cake. This is good. When placed on a tree or an orchid that does not have a well developed mycorrhiza colony, sometimes you end up feeding a "not so helpful" fungi, maybe not necessarily pathogenic, but I have had snow mold go nuts in orchid bark when I put "poo balls" on my Cymbidiums. Though I must admit, I think the snow mold was there first, which is never good, though it is not "pathogenic" until it has taken over the pot. The take over can happen quickly.

Some of the "old timers" here may remember when using horse manure for a fertilizer was being promoted. Manure in general is a time honored fertilizer, and it can work very well. Chicken, bird manure in general, goats, sheep, horses, cows, llama, camel, all manner of dung from herbivorous creatures make good plant fertilizer. 

(Note: dung from carnivores has health issues presenting a risk to people, don't use dog poop without first reading up on the proper preparation, I don't know the details, I have no dog right now). 

I have several Paph philippinense that were raised by their previous owner on cow manure. They were big beefy plants with roots filling one gallon nursery cans - roughly a deep 6 inch diameter by 10 to 12 inches deep pot (15 cm diameter & 20 or 25 cm deep). The previous owner had good results until he began neglecting the watering. So all in all the organic fertilizers have a long, time honored history of working, but you do have to adapt your style of growing in order to use them. Frequent repotting is key, you can't let an orchid go 2 years if you are using dung. (well maybe, Cymbidiums seemed to be able to grow in muck, he used to not repot the Cymbidiums, as the media would collapse, turn to fines and wash out the drain hole, he would just refill the pot with manure, kept this going a decade or more. The Cymbidiums looked great, until he started letting them get bone dry between watering. Then they all crashed. 

So I stick to K-Lite, cleaner, easy to use, does not plug up drainage.


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## Leo Schordje (Oct 7, 2014)

To get the pelleted 4 Month Controlled Release version of K-Lite, with the same wonderful line up of macro and micro nutrients, contact Ray at First Rays Orchids. If he doesn't have it in stock, ask him to order it in. Ray is a member here. It is the Controlled Release 9-1-1 formulation made by the same wholesale manufacturer that Ray has blend the K-Lite. It should be a couple bucks per pound more than the soluble K-Lite, but not much more than a couple bucks more.


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## Linus_Cello (Oct 7, 2014)

Leo Schordje said:


> To get the pelleted 4 Month Controlled Release version of K-Lite, with the same wonderful line up of macro and micro nutrients, contact Ray at First Rays Orchids. If he doesn't have it in stock, ask him to order it in. Ray is a member here. It is the Controlled Release 9-1-1 formulation made by the same wholesale manufacturer that Ray has blend the K-Lite. It should be a couple bucks per pound more than the soluble K-Lite, but not much more than a couple bucks more.



Ray- I would buy some if you made it available for sale.


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## Stone (Oct 7, 2014)

Leo Schordje said:


> > When the cakes break down the sediment is fine grained, which will eventually block the air spaces in the media for both my bonsai and my orchids.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## myxodex (Oct 8, 2014)

Ozpaph said:


> In this country mancozeb often comes mixed with sulphur. Is it the sulphur??



Dithane/mancozeb are dithiocarbamate type compounds which do contain sulphur. In moisture and light they will decompose to release H2S (amongst other compounds) which can be absorbed by plant leaves and assimilated.

I've been interested in the results folk here have reported using this treatment (see some of Bjorn's recent threads). There is a connection between the S biochemistry in plants and the transition metal micros (Fe,Mn,Zn,Cu and Ni), their uptake, transport and binding into the metalloproteins that use these metals. All these metals can generate reactive oxygen species (ROS) if not properly complexed/chelated when in the plants (phytochelatins are S containing compounds found in all plants), and all of these metals can be toxic in excess. Studies have shown for some plants that are challenged with excess Fe (e.g. wheat) , will respond by increasing S uptake at the roots. I can only guess that applying extra Mn,Zn and/or Cu without the extra S, could actually harm your plants especially if your fert regime is S limited.


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## naoki (Oct 8, 2014)

myxodex, it is pretty interesting points. If it is not too much trouble, can you point to the papers (Fe challenge and S uptake)? This isn't a science forum, but some of us appreciate the primary literature!

There seem to be quite a bit of difference in attitudes toward Organic vs inorganic fertilizer in different country. I think in Japan, we used to consider organic ones are the typical fertilizer for hobbyists (both orchids and other plants). I believe that people in Brazil also use quite a bit of organic fert.

After reading Rodrigues et al (2010) (organic+inorganic was better), I tried to make fermented cake with cotton seed meal, but it didn't ferment. I think the temperature was too low in AK, so I probably need to try again in the hottest time next year. The paper also point out that unknowns in the organic fertilizer could cause a bit of challenge (e.g. they suspected B toxicity in one organic fertilizer). The paper briefly mention about S deficiency, too, myxodex.

Some people in Japan seem to have good results with rapeseed for the mounted orchids (just hung a cake or tea bag near the top of the mount).


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## Leo Schordje (Oct 9, 2014)

Stone said:


> Leo Schordje said:
> 
> 
> > ...............You're not still with the low K thing are you? Have you not seen enough evidence yet? :evil:
> ...


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## Stone (Oct 10, 2014)

Leo Schordje said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > > What evidence? My seem to be growing better than ever
> ...


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## Bjorn (Oct 10, 2014)

Excuse me, but what has this to do with emersonii and hangianum?
Perhaps a new thread would be appropriate? FWIW: My personal opinion is that the trick lies in use of low fertiliser levels. Just read old literature; advices are 1/4 -1/10 of "normal" which transform to 100-250ppm TDS (NOT as N but all of it). Perhaps lower levels are even better??? (Its the amount and not K that is the culprit here) Another thing: where in nature do you find orchids that are fed intermittently with heavy loads of fertiliser for then, the next day, being flushed with very low fertiliser levels?:evil:


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## Ozpaph (Oct 10, 2014)

I'm thinking a bit like Bjorn; less fertilizer is better and plenty of high quality water.


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## Stone (Oct 10, 2014)

Bjorn said:


> Excuse me, but what has this to do with emersonii and hangianum?
> Perhaps a new thread would be appropriate? FWIW: My personal opinion is that the trick lies in use of low fertiliser levels. Just read old literature; advices are 1/4 -1/10 of "normal" which transform to 100-250ppm TDS (NOT as N but all of it). Perhaps lower levels are even better??? (Its the amount and not K that is the culprit here) Another thing: where in nature do you find orchids that are fed intermittently with heavy loads of fertiliser for then, the next day, being flushed with very low fertiliser levels?:evil:



:clap:


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