# Paph gigantifolium status... legal flasks?



## gore42 (Sep 12, 2006)

Hello 

I've run across an opportunity to buy Paph gigantifolium flasks for a fair price from a vendor in Taiwan that can hand deliver them to me. However, I can't help but notice that this species is pretty much not available in the US. I know that Sam Tsui has sold flasks of the species from his legal plants, and I don't know of any other particular reason why these flasks would be illegal.

Barring a long investigation into the origin of the parent plants in Taiwan, do any of you have any reason to think that they might be illegal in the USA?

- Matt


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## slippertalker (Sep 12, 2006)

The key would be the CITES paperwork and whether you can get that past the bureaucracy. Since gigantifolium isn't native to Taiwan, there would have to be a paper trail from the country of origin proving they were legally exported. You might ask Sam Tsui how he legally obtained his flasks.


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## Leo Schordje (Sep 12, 2006)

If you are importing ANY Paph or Phrag across international borders, you must get ALL the required CITES paperwork. The Indonesia has allowed some P. gigantifolium to leave with paperwork. They key is whether or not your Taiwanese source can convince our USFWS and USDA that their paperwork links back to legally exported P. gigantifolium. It does not matter who else has gotten the plant into the our country. Even if you were importing Paph callosum or villosum from Taiwan you would need the same paperwork. Good luck. I would go to the USFWS websites or call the USFWS and be sure to you know what you need to meet the latest version of their requirements. Don't trust info from talk forums. I also believe you should have the plants come in through Miami for your port of entry, then have them reshipped to Fort Collins. Other ports of entry are notorious for goofing up and being inconsistient on their document requirements. 
Leo


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## gore42 (Sep 12, 2006)

Thanks guys! Let me clarify, though.

I've imported plenty of Paphs and flasks before. The procedure itself is not the issue. Indeed, Paphs that are still in flask are exempt from CITES, and only require phytosanitary certificates. Of course, the parents still must have been legal. (apparently, Sam Tsui imported legal mature plants, which he has bred to offer flasks).

I'll just copy and paste here from Title 50:

"...categorically excluded or exempted parts or derivatives of certain plants:...

(5) For Orchidaceae species: in Appendix I, seedling or tissue cultures obtained in vitro, in solid or liquid media, transported in sterile containers; in Appendix II, for artificially propagated Vanilla species, the fruits and their parts and derivatives "

Also, these flasks will be hand-delivered to me at a show I'll be attending, so it's not up to me to get them into the country. That won't be a problem. What might be a problem, though, is selling them later.

I suppose that I should contact Fish and Wildlife.

- Matt


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## SlipperFan (Sep 12, 2006)

It is confusing to me -- I just looked it up: http://www.cites.org/eng/app/appendices.shtml

In appendix I, it just says:
(For all of the following Appendix-I species, seedling or tissue cultures obtained in vitro, in solid or liquid media, transported in sterile containers are not subject to the provisions of the Convention) 
Aerangis ellisii 
Dendrobium cruentum 
Laelia jongheana 
Laelia lobata 
Paphiopedilum spp. 
Peristeria elata 
Phragmipedium spp. 
Renanthera imschootiana

--which would lead one to think that all Paphs and Phrags are on this list, but they are not. 

If you contact Fish & Wildlife, please let us know the results.


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## kentuckiense (Sep 12, 2006)

Slipperfan said:


> --which would lead one to think that all Paphs and Phrags are on this list, but they are not.



All Paph and Phrag species ARE on CITES Appendix I. However, the important thing to remember is that every inidividual country has made up their own CITES interpretations/rules. In addition, many countries have non-CITES rules that can interfere with with importation of organisms. For example, the Lacey Act is why those of us in the United States cannot legally purchase hangianum hybrids.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Sep 12, 2006)

As far as I know, all paphs and phrags are on App. I................Take care, Eric


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## Rick (Sep 12, 2006)

SlipperFan said:


> It is confusing to me -- I just looked it up: http://www.cites.org/eng/app/appendices.shtml
> 
> In appendix I, it just says:
> (For all of the following Appendix-I species, seedling or tissue cultures obtained in vitro, in solid or liquid media, transported in sterile containers are not subject to the provisions of the Convention)
> ...




I can't say exactly where I saw it, but I have seen several quotes in government documents that all Cypripedia (or at least paphs and phrags) where appendix I. I suspect thats because if its not in bloom you can't tell a trully endagered species from another. Also the rarity of a species is also considered only for the wild population. Subsequently roth is still an endangered species even though its pretty common in cultivation.

Interestingly I was conversing with an X employee from a large zoo/herbarium programn that also had a rescue center.

According to her about 90% of the confiscated plants being dumped on her center were phal meristem clones (the only problem was lack of correct paperwork). The occaisonal "jungle" plant that they saw was rarely in flower, and even more rarely identified to the species level until it bloomed.


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## gore42 (Sep 13, 2006)

I just got an email reply from Roddy Gabel, of USFW fame. 

Regarding the import of gigantifolium flasks, he said:



> The legality of the plants is determined by whether they were exported
> legally from the range country, which for gigantifolium is Indonesia, I
> believe. I would ask your source to demonstrate to you that they are
> propagating the flasks from legally acquired parental stock before you
> buy.



So, if the parents were legal AND they can prove it, then they are safe to import. Flasks are CITES exempt under those circumstances.

- Matt Gore


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## Stephan (Sep 13, 2006)

I'm willing to bet that your guys would be pretty much the same as our guys in this situation. Correct documentation? One certificate looks pretty much like any other - I wonder if they'd be able to confirm that the documentation was actually authentic - sheesh - depends very much on honesty all round yet the entire system has been created because of people's greed and dishonesty.

Gotta love bureacrats

Cheers
Stephan


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## Heather (Sep 17, 2006)

I just saw that Glen Decker also has seedlings of these plants available for sale in his new catalog. Legally obtained.


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