# Phrag amazonica



## Achamore (Nov 19, 2015)

Here's a good one for discussion, I would wager. I bought this a few days ago, from the same woman who sold me the Raymond Faroult. Now some folk say this is a variety of richteri, others that it is a variety of pearcei, and yet to my eye this particular specimen doesn't look like either of those.

Sue and I have also had some discussion as to whether it should be called "amazonica" or "amazonicum". Any views?


----------



## Berthold (Nov 19, 2015)

Achamore said:


> Sue and I have also had some discussion as to whether it should be called "amazonica" or "amazonicum". Any views?



What is the opinion of Sue?

amazonic*um* would be correct, the same sex as the genus


----------



## eggshells (Nov 19, 2015)

Is there any paper about Phrag. amazonica? It is the first time I have heard about it.


----------



## Rob Zuiderwijk (Nov 19, 2015)

As far as I know _Phrag_. _amazonica _hort. is a tradename and therefor synonym of _Phrag_. _richteri_ (or _Phrag_. ×_richteri _depending what view you follow).
I agree with you that the plant you show does not look like a "regular" _Phrag_. _richteri _.

It is however a very nice flower.

All the best,

Rob Z.


----------



## Achamore (Nov 19, 2015)

Berthold said:


> What is the opinion of Sue?
> 
> amazonic*um* would be correct, the same sex as the genus



She agreed with your point above. Yet all listings I have seen refer to amazonica, the feminine form.


----------



## Achamore (Nov 19, 2015)

Here's the richteri I got from Ecuagenera, which I photographed in August. As Rob says, the amazonica doesn't look much like this richteri. The amazonica is also a good bit bigger.


----------



## NYEric (Nov 19, 2015)

green hybrid!


----------



## SlipperFan (Nov 19, 2015)

Definitely a hybrid. Rob is correct about the name amazonica. I wonder if someone is giving the name Amazonica to a hybrid? If so, it's not registered. Nice flower, at any rate.


----------



## abax (Nov 19, 2015)

I love the long, twisty petals on the first one. It's
gorgeous. I see that I need a really good book on
Phrags. in English. There's sooo much I don't know!


----------



## troy (Nov 20, 2015)

Great color and shape!!! How big is the plant?


----------



## Achamore (Nov 20, 2015)

I just measured the bloom of the amazonicum. The dorsal sepal is 55mm long and the petals are 110mm long. The richteri isn't in bloom at the moment, but there is another bud coming along. My recollection is that the richteri is about 2/3's the size of this bloom of the amazonicum. (I'm favouring the masculine ending, as the logic is there from Sue.)

The leaves reach a maximum length of about 42cm (16.5").

If this is a hybrid, then of what? The only likely candidate is Phragmipedium Grassau, but I can't find any photos online to compare. Sue has no further details of when and where she bought the plant.


----------



## eteson (Nov 20, 2015)

Richterii is the natural hybrid between pearcei and boissierianum and Taras the man made one. Olaf described also something called Phrag merinoi that at the end is the same.
Richterii can be very variable because one of the parents (boissierianum) is also very variable (some people even split boissierianum in three species). Your first picture seems to me also Richterii
IMHO we should not use Amazonica anymore.


----------



## Achamore (Nov 21, 2015)

Well, I have grown boissierianum and richteri, but have not seen any specimens that would produce this as a cross. 

Here it is a bit backlit, as I felt there were qualities that the other photos didn't bring out.


----------



## trdyl (Nov 21, 2015)

That is so pretty!


----------



## eteson (Nov 21, 2015)

So nice! Not sure what do you mean...
This one is in flower right now in my greenhouse. It is pearcei (pod parent) x boissierianum.


----------



## 17andgrowing (Nov 21, 2015)

That's lovely.


----------



## SlipperFan (Nov 21, 2015)

Pretty much look the same to me.


----------



## Achamore (Nov 22, 2015)

SlipperFan said:


> Pretty much look the same to me.



I agree. Thank you, that pretty much clarifies the matter..! I hadn't seen that cross before.


----------



## Rob Zuiderwijk (Nov 22, 2015)

To avoid misunderstandings first of all, no offence to anyone intended. Anyone is entitled to his own opinion.

When it comes to the flower shown by Don I still think that Eliseo is mistaken in thinking it is a richteri. The photo Eliseo published I think confirms my believes. In Don's plant the shape of the staminodal shield is different from what one would expect from a richteri. Second the lateral petals are very long and they lack the (how do you call that properly in English) curled edges which are characteristic for boissierianum and its hybrids, and which are clearly present in Eliseo's plant. Also, but that is more of a gut feeling, the more elongated shape of and dot patern on the centre of the lip reminds me more of longifolium than of boissierianum and/or pearcei.

All in all, IMHO the flower shown by Don shows more longifolium influence and no boissierianum influence. But then again, what do I know. 

As I said in my earlier post in this thread what ever it is Don, it is a beautifull plant.

All the best,

Rob Zuiderwijk


----------



## Achamore (Nov 22, 2015)

Good points Rob..!

Anyone know of a photo of longifolium x richteri?


----------



## trdyl (Nov 22, 2015)

Achamore said:


> Good points Rob..!
> 
> Anyone know of a photo of longifolium x richteri?



Don't have a photo. The hybrid name is Phrag Grassau


----------



## SlipperKing (Nov 23, 2015)

The fine pink spotting inside the pouch of the first discounts richteri for me. More on the lines of a klocianum(?) hybrid. maybe pearcei as the other parent. Also, boissierianum throws allot of ruffles in to the petal edges as well as the dorsal edging as seen in Eteson's plant. So much red/pink. Even your richteri is extremely pink. You must have allot of Mg in your source water.

Edit: I was also thinking one of the diminutive forms of longifolium as Rob mentioned.


----------



## Achamore (Nov 23, 2015)

Hmmm... doesn't appear to be a registered cross of klotzscheanum x richteri. That's an opportunity for someone..!


----------

