# Phrag kovachii - Chuck Acker's Plant - a week late



## Leo Schordje (Feb 12, 2009)

I made the journey last week, just to see this species myself. I was not able to travel the weekend of the show, so I got to the greenhouse a couple days later. The color is hard to describe and hard to capture. All these pictures are close, but not quite right. It is a pink flower, well, almost pink. A bit purple blue and brown too. Wonderful velvet texture. 

Notice that it has one flower and 2 buds coming, so 3 flowers on a first bloom seedling. By the way, that flower was well over 20 cm natural spread, 8 inches across. HUGE

The Phrag kovachii flower, open 5 days, at the greenhouse in natural sunlight












with the clouds rolling through, changed light conditions





Chuck's image taken a day earlier





Lois Cinert's image taken on the second day of the show, Feb 1.





side view: 





I really can't wait until my seedlings grow up. 
Enjoy - Leo


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## JeanLux (Feb 12, 2009)

super impressions of a super flower!!!! Thanks Leo!!! Jean


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## rdlsreno (Feb 12, 2009)

Nice!!!!


Ramon


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## nikv (Feb 12, 2009)

Wow! All I can say is wow!


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## Kavanaru (Feb 12, 2009)

hhhmmmm... I must admit this species has an amazing flower regarding size and colors... but (and please don't shut for this next statement! ) is it only me, the one who thinks the flowers have a weird (almost ugly) shape? like missing pieces and oversized ears? 

Even though I must admit I am also fascinated but this species, there is something in it which really keeps me unconvinced that I would like to have one


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## Paul (Feb 12, 2009)

That's really a huge flower,very impressive!!!

I can't wait to see mines blooming some day!! lol


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## biothanasis (Feb 12, 2009)

Great flower!!! And it is huge!!!Thanks!!!


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## Elena (Feb 12, 2009)

Thanks so much for the photos.

One day *sigh*


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## phrag guy (Feb 12, 2009)

very impressive.can't wait to see some flowering up here in canada


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## John M (Feb 12, 2009)

Glad to finally see that the era of blooming, seed grown kovachii is finally here. We should be in for some awesome "eye candy" in the next few years. Thanks very much, Leo, for making the trip and sharing your photos. I also see that Chuck has added a couple more photos to his website.

I'm looking forward to seeing the next generation of hybrids from this species. 'Should be lots of interesting and beautiful flowers coming along in time.


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## Rick (Feb 12, 2009)

oke:Who needs Cattleyas with flowers like thisoke:


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## parvi_17 (Feb 12, 2009)

Wow. That is breathtaking. I don't know about you guys, but I think this is the most beautiful slipper orchid out there right now.


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## Jorch (Feb 12, 2009)

I am one of the, perhaps odd one out like Ramón, who doesn't really like the kovachii flower. Nice color, nice size, but the shape just doesn't appeal to me. I like its hybrids more than the species itself! 

It sure is an impressive slipper in terms of size! Thanks for sharing


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## Hien (Feb 12, 2009)

Jorch said:


> I am one of the, perhaps odd one out like Ramón, who doesn't really like the kovachii flower. Nice color, nice size, but the shape just doesn't appeal to me. I like its hybrids more than the species itself!
> 
> It sure is an impressive slipper in terms of size! Thanks for sharing



According to Jason Fischer, one of the large hangianums he saw in Japan is 27.9cm (11 inch) which is about 8 cm (3 inch) bigger in spread.


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## likespaphs (Feb 12, 2009)

ha. kinda looks to me like chuck is saying no touch...


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## nikv (Feb 12, 2009)

Does Chuck having it growing with his Cymbidiums or was that only used as a backdrop for the photos? And does anyone know what Chuck plans to do with it? Self it? Hybridize with it? I'm curious to know.


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## Ernie (Feb 12, 2009)

How many of those lime green T shirts does Chuck own???  

Good info and pix, Leo! 

-Ernie


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## Leo Schordje (Feb 12, 2009)

I should thank Chuck for trusting me enough to leave me alone with the plant :evil: while he was taking care of his normal customers. They do a pretty brisk walk in trade there even on a weekday. Also thank Chuck and Lois C. for letting me use their pictures to demonstrate how lighting changes the color. The color really is elusive and I think for hybridizers it has hidden potential. 

Several crumdgeons oke: complain about the form of the flower, but they couldn't possibly be true dedicated slipper growers could they?  We all have our favorites, I grow a B. nodosa, but I also really dislike all the B. nodosa hybrids that involve C. aurantiaca or any of the unifoliate Cattleya. I feel the nodosa kills the charm of the other parent, leaving you with a flower not as good as either parent. Again, personal taste. 

Chuck feels that the curled edges on the dorsal may be transitory environmental effect and possibly won't re-occur on later flowers. So basically, his flower seems to be everything a good 'typical' kovachii should be. (not going to get into AOS criteria) I can't say what average is, when my sample size is one. Basically, it is what it is. Funny that besseae and schlimii are two of its closer relatives. Now schlimii has the near 'perfect' ideal shape for full and round form. The improvements in line bred besseae give a clue what a few selection generations might do for filling out the form of kovachii. I think there is a real possibility to get a great line of phrag hybrids with 5 inch or greater flowers, Round or oval in shape, in colors of hot pink to hot red-orange to purple and bluish-purple. And the hybrids with the caudatum types may give us massive long petalled hybrids. The flower size tends to be the geometric average of the 2 parents. So (surface area x surface area) / 2 if a fair predictor of flower size. Think about what Bouley Bay or China Dragon x kovachii would look like? I can hardly wait.

I for one am really excited about this species being available.


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## Ernie (Feb 12, 2009)

Leo, buddy, your math is rusty. Geometric mean is the nth root of the product of n values. So, if you have two numbers, you mulitply them together then take the square root of the product. If three, multiply them then take the cube root, etc. Usually, one considers the geo mean of a length measurement or floriferousness (which oddly holds up pretty well in my experience). Although SA can be considered, it is not common in judging simply because it's not simple to do on the fly. Hmmm, I can adapt my electrophoresis/Western gel and micrograph imaging software for orchid judging... I commonly dream of developing such a metric of proportion during my train naps... Cheers! 

-Ernie


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## slippertalker (Feb 12, 2009)

I am quite intrigued by the hirsute stems and sepals. It certainly adds unique character to the flowers. Also, 3 flowers on the stem is pretty good flower count for a first bloom seedling. My largest seedlings are just starting 2nd and 3rd growths so I am hopeful that blooms might show up in the next year or two.


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## Ernie (Feb 12, 2009)

slippertalker said:


> I am quite intrigued by the hirsute stems and sepals. It certainly adds unique character to the flowers. Also, 3 flowers on the stem is pretty good flower count for a first bloom seedling. My largest seedlings are just starting 2nd and 3rd growths so I am hopeful that blooms might show up in the next year or two.



Saw it in person too. It is downright FUZZY. Front back top and bottom. 

-Ernie


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## Leo Schordje (Feb 12, 2009)

nikv said:


> Does Chuck having it growing with his Cymbidiums or was that only used as a backdrop for the photos? And does anyone know what Chuck plans to do with it? Self it? Hybridize with it? I'm curious to know.



The kovachi is growing in that greenhouse, which is at least 40% Phrags. There are Cymbidiums in there, but I think they are plants that were brought in as finished plants in bud or bloom for resale, they were not raised in that house. There was no plan toward backdrop - other than get the sun light coming from behind the camera onto the face of the subject. 

You would have to ask Chuck if you wanted specifics, but I know he has said he already made selfings and hybrids with it. Each pollen mass was sub-divided, so Chuck has made half a dozen hybrids and a selfing. Time will tell whether thay take.


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## John M (Feb 12, 2009)

Leo Schordje said:


> Think about what Bouley Bay or China Dragon x kovachii would look like? I can hardly wait.
> 
> I for one am really excited about this species being available.



My point exactly, Leo. The next 10 to 15 years is going to see new and vastly different crosses coming into bloom. It's an exciting time! I hope that the rumours of an alba being discovered a while back were true. ....And I hope that it is in good hands and is being propagated and used in hybridizing.


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## Leo Schordje (Feb 12, 2009)

Ernie said:


> Leo, buddy, your math is rusty. Geometric mean is the nth root of the product of n values. So, if you have two numbers, you mulitply them together then take the square root of the product. If three, multiply them then take the cube root, etc. Usually, one considers the geo mean of a length measurement or floriferousness (which oddly holds up pretty well in my experience). Although SA can be considered, it is not common in judging simply because it's not simple to do on the fly. Hmmm, I can adapt my electrophoresis/Western gel and micrograph imaging software for orchid judging... I commonly dream of developing such a metric of proportion during my train naps... Cheers!
> 
> -Ernie



Duh! - I'm so busted.  You are right, I am glad you caught it. I was relying on memory, and it ain't what it used to be. 

 Now I just hope my buddy Tom F has sense enough to not follow my suggestion on how to cure his radon problem in the basement Boy, if he listens to me, that one could get ugly.


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## nikv (Feb 12, 2009)

^ ^
Thanks for the information, Leo! Glad to hear that there will be selfings of this gorgeous plant. I hope that all of his crosses take.


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## Leo Schordje (Feb 12, 2009)

Ernie said:


> ...... can adapt my electrophoresis/Western gel and micrograph imaging software for orchid judging... I commonly dream of developing such a metric of proportion during my train naps... Cheers!
> -Ernie



You have software that does that stuff for you now? It's amazing what can be done now. Great idea. Go for it, maybe you get a patent out of it
Leo


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## Ernie (Feb 12, 2009)

Leo Schordje said:


> You have software that does that stuff for you now? It's amazing what can be done now. Great idea. Go for it, maybe you get a patent out of it
> Leo



Sure do. Can snap a pic of fluorescent cells or whatever and have it count them, determine coverage, perimeter, axes lengths, intensity... click a button and POW. No reason it couldn't work with a regular pic of a flower. 

-Ernie


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## goldenrose (Feb 12, 2009)

Kavanaru said:


> hhhmmmm ... is it only me, the one who thinks the flowers have a weird (almost ugly) shape? like missing pieces and oversized ears? ...


I can understand that, especially depending on what stage of opening one sees it. You can see the changes that take place in a 24 hour span & I think most of the larger flowers of paphs & phrags all have an ugly duckling stage while opening. You must see it in person!


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## Kavanaru (Feb 12, 2009)

well, I mean the really well open flowers... have laready seen them, and there is still something missing for my taste  cannot explain it, but I do not get very very into it (although, I must admit I think the plant has a great potential!)


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## goldenrose (Feb 12, 2009)

Oh - that's OK - we all have different tastes!


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## SlipperFan (Feb 12, 2009)

I, for one, like kovachii. But then, I'm not necessarily one who thinks round is perfect.

Leo, do you know the history of this plant? Where and when did Chuck get this plant? Does he have others?


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## Ron-NY (Feb 12, 2009)

There are many Phrag species that have intriguing shapes. I too don't love kovachii but that does not stop me from having one in my collection. I would like it better if it hada more pronounced dorsalWhat besseae brought to Phrag breeding in color, kovachii will also influence breeding to that level if not greater due to it's size and color. I too look forward to the future generations with kovachii in the background :drool:


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## Leo Schordje (Feb 12, 2009)

SlipperFan said:


> I, for one, like kovachii. But then, I'm not necessarily one who thinks round is perfect.
> 
> Leo, do you know the history of this plant? Where and when did Chuck get this plant? Does he have others?



The history of the plant is up on Chuck's website, it originated from one of the first batches of Peruflora flasks to be released. I got mine from the Marique / Piping Rock group a couple years later. You can always inquire with Chuck, he might have some sibbs from that batch available. 

http://www.flasksbychuckacker.com/

Leo


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## Ron-NY (Feb 12, 2009)

I believe I saw that Manuel Arias has blooming sized kovachii plants for sale


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## NYEric (Feb 12, 2009)

Go for it Dot! :evil:
The color on the one at the WOC seemed darker, more toward purple, but maybe it was just the lighting or the closeness of the floor the bloom was lying on after it was knocked off! It will be a great plant for hybridizing w/ schlimii x fischeri. 

About computer analysis, it won't account for the objective review. Did we forget the story of the GNYOS judging of the Pk hybrid where they didn't award it *and* had nothing to compare it to!!


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## Ron-NY (Feb 12, 2009)

the color varies with lighting and age of the flower


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## SlipperFan (Feb 12, 2009)

Thanks, Leo.

I've had such poor luck with kovachii seedlings, I'm reluctant to get anymore right now...


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## Ron-NY (Feb 12, 2009)

SlipperFan said:


> Thanks, Leo.
> 
> I've had such poor luck with kovachii seedlings, I'm reluctant to get anymore right now...


Dot, all my Pk hybrids are now in S/H and loving it. I am sorry I didn't go that route from the start


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## SlipperFan (Feb 12, 2009)

Ron-NY said:


> Dot, all my Pk hybrids are now in S/H and loving it. I am sorry I didn't go that route from the start



Mine are in diatomite. Maybe I need to water them more often. Guess I'll try that. Thanks, Ron.


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## NYEric (Feb 12, 2009)

I had trouble w/ really small ones; but most are OK now.


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## Wendy (Feb 12, 2009)

Myself I like pure Pk better than the hybrids I've seen so far. I had two Pk...one died but the second one is growing very well. I also have a Pk x wallisii seedling.


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## Hien (Feb 12, 2009)

SlipperFan said:


> Thanks, Leo.
> 
> I've had such poor luck with kovachii seedlings, I'm reluctant to get anymore right now...



I agree with you,
I had all the flasks (various pk crosses) from Peru-flora. The plants were too small. They did not make it.
I also had the species flasks (much larger then Peru-flora) from Glen. Twice, they were killed by insects.
Then I have medium size different hybrid of pk from Glen, again the insects devoured them. (the exception are the pk x Living Fire from Glen, something in the back-ground of the "Living Fire" parent seems to give them the edge to survive)


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## John M (Feb 12, 2009)

NYEric said:


> The color on the one at the WOC seemed darker, more toward purple, but maybe it was just the lighting or the closeness of the floor the bloom was lying on after it was knocked off!



I didn't know that somebody had already bloomed a pure kovachii. I thought that this one by Chuck was the first....at least in the USA and Canada. So, are there any photos of the one at the WOC? Who owned/grew it? .....And who knocked the flower off? If not the owner, did the owner let them live!?


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## Clark (Feb 12, 2009)

Hello all.
I did not get to see Pk at the WOC.
Who was the owner?
After seeing Pk with flower, are flask available (species)
to the hobbyist?
And also, the photography on this site is beyond words.
Thank you Clark


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## Kyle (Feb 12, 2009)

the one at the woc was imported in flower from peru by peru flora.


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## Paul (Feb 13, 2009)

Hien said:


> I agree with you,
> I had all the flasks (various pk crosses) from Peru-flora. The plants were too small. They did not make it.
> I also had the species flasks (much larger then Peru-flora) from Glen. Twice, they were killed by insects.
> Then I have medium size different hybrid of pk from Glen, again the insects devoured them. (the exception are the pk x Living Fire from Glen, something in the back-ground of the "Living Fire" parent seems to give them the edge to survive)



I have also bought 2 small flasks from Peruflora with very small plants inside . It was very hard to make them start but now I have a dozen that grows. Now maybe a couple years to bloom the first ... 



John M said:


> I didn't know that somebody had already bloomed a pure kovachii. I thought that this one by Chuck was the first....at least in the USA and Canada. So, are there any photos of the one at the WOC? Who owned/grew it? .....And who knocked the flower off? If not the owner, did the owner let them live!?



The first (or one of the first) to bloom out of flask, I think is from "La Cour des Orchidées", a French producer, last months.


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## Kavanaru (Feb 13, 2009)

John M said:


> I didn't know that somebody had already bloomed a pure kovachii. I thought that this one by Chuck was the first....at least in the USA and Canada. So, are there any photos of the one at the WOC? Who owned/grew it? .....And who knocked the flower off? If not the owner, did the owner let them live!?



There is a nursery in France http://www.lacourdesorchidees.fr/index.htm they have bloomed PK already (at least the picture is their website since at least two months) and they claim "Probably the first blooming of Pk grown from in vitro culture" (Probablement la première floraison de Phragmipedium kovachii issue de culture In Vitro) <-- who knows whether true... oke:

...and I saw one bloming in The Netherlands, but cannot say whether wild collected (I doubt as the plant was too small, to "healthy", and it was in a show)...


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## Paul (Feb 13, 2009)

Kavanaru said:


> There is a nursery in France http://www.lacourdesorchidees.fr/index.htm they have bloomed PK already (at least the picture is their website since at least two months) and they claim "Probably the first blooming of Pk grown from in vitro culture" (Probablement la première floraison de Phragmipedium kovachii issue de culture In Vitro) <-- who knows whether true... oke:




Yes! It's true, and a few French growers have plants from the same producer that have grown very fast and are now mature (remember the plant of Philippe, here...)


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## NYEric (Feb 13, 2009)

Ummmm, I hate to say this but Pk has been out and about for a while. The hybrids I got and traded were previously bloomed! I know I took a photo of the one at the WOC but I'm not sure whether I posted it in the thread.


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## NYEric (Feb 13, 2009)

Hien said:


> I also had the species flasks (much larger then Peru-flora) from Glen. Twice, they were killed by insects.
> Then I have medium size different hybrid of pk from Glen, again the insects devoured them. (the exception are the pk x Living Fire from Glen, something in the back-ground of the "Living Fire" parent seems to give them the edge to survive)



Um, Hien, I don't think the cross is really a solution to the problem! oke:

Clark, so far, Glen Decker at Piping Rock has had the largest Pk plants that I've seen for sale. Flasks, I don't come across often but you might try Orchidview.


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## Hien (Feb 13, 2009)

NYEric said:


> Um, Hien, I don't think the cross is really a solution to the problem! oke:
> 
> Clark, so far, Glen Decker at Piping Rock has had the largest Pk plants that I've seen for sale. Flasks, I don't come across often but you might try Orchidview.



I know, different insects are the solution


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## NYEric (Feb 13, 2009)

This spring I'm going to by a carton of ladybugs, I'll send you some if you want.


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## Ron-NY (Feb 13, 2009)

NYEric said:


> This spring I'm going to by a carton of ladybugs, I'll send you some if you want.


 NYC apartment and carton of lady bugs...sounds very interesting oke:


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## Clark (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks for the info Eric. After reading post about preorder with
A. Manrique, I thought maybe you were getting some younger Pk.
Have a great trip to DC, we almost went this year.
Can ladybugs and geckos share living space?


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## NYEric (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't really have a pest problem, although even after the Merit 75 and Neem a few plants are hiding our little friends  ;but I thought they would be cool and I can put some on the Cyps in the gardens! BTW, I'm getting some Pk hybrids.


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## SlipperFan (Feb 13, 2009)

Clark, welcome to Slippertalk!


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## Hien (Feb 14, 2009)

As mentioned before, I believe kovachii x Living Fire from Piping rock is a strong cross in term of survival, that I would recommend.
I have two survived plants of the same cross left from previous purchase, but this weekend, I got a in-spike one from Glen at Deepcut show .


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## Clark (Feb 15, 2009)

Thanks Dot, happy to be here! Are there photos of your
basement growing area, possibly on another thead?
I also bought Pk x Living Fire at Deepcut in 2007. No buds yet,
but growing like a weed the last 3-4 months.


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## Phrag-Plus (Feb 15, 2009)

Wow! Those photos are very nice! I can't stand to see mine in bloom too...
Mine ane doing very well in moss media, the same I use for all my other one. I just put a little bit more of bone meal as a top dressing. And they are doing very well and easy to grow. And hopping some will bloom this year...!


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## P-chan (Feb 15, 2009)

Beautiful photos! I think it's an awesome bloom. I could stare at it all day. Mine has a long way to go, as it's about 5" so far! :rollhappy: The bloom is so fuzzy..like velvet. It's my favorite orchid by far.


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## SlipperFan (Feb 16, 2009)

Clark Edward said:


> Thanks Dot, happy to be here! Are there photos of your
> basement growing area, possibly on another thead?


Yes, Clark. I posted photos of both my growing spaces here:
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1004&highlight=megathread&page=19
You are welcome to post your growing space on that thread also.


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## wonderlen3000 (Apr 3, 2009)

WOW that's huge!! How long it take for the plant to reach flowering size from seedling. I am thinking about getting a 4"LS seedling for $99 but, judeing from the plant size, at least 3-4 times the size of besseae, it's worth to wait 6-8 years? =(


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## Kyle (Apr 3, 2009)

Plants are not as big as you think. I would say 1 to 1.5 times as big as a besseae on blooming. 

Kyle


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## Jimsox (Apr 3, 2009)

either you are a midget or that thing is HUGE!!! Very nice, great looking plant/flower.


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