# What Should I Buy?



## Rabbit (Jan 4, 2010)

I've been reading the posts for a while, but finally decided to register and ask a question. I grow orchids in my Toronto condo in terrariums. I bought my !st orchids in Sept 08 - mostly phals at first, because I thought they were the easiest. Then I got a Paph Maudiae. It bloomed and rebloomed with no trouble whatsoever, so I bought several more - all Maudiae varieties. They are all growing very well with some getting ready to rebloom.

In Feb., I plan to go to an orchid show here in Toronto and purchase some more paphs. Can someone please recommend some beginner paphs that are not Maudiae? 

They will be going into terrarium conditions which are quite warm and humid. Summer temps average 26-28C (78-82F) with little variation between day and night. Winter temps are 22-24C (71-75F) daytime, down to 19/20C (66/68F) at night. Humidity averages 60% -70%, but can be 90% overnight and morning, before the lights come on and can drop to 40% if the top if left completely off. Tank height is 24". 

Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks a lot.


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## NYEric (Jan 4, 2010)

Wlcome from NYC! That's kind of too humid for parvi paphs so I don't know. Good Luck.


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## Paphman910 (Jan 4, 2010)

Paph callosum, Paph. venustum, Paphiopedilum sukhakuli, Paph. victoria-regina, Paph delenatii.

Paphman910


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## nikv (Jan 4, 2010)

How about a Paph. Pinocchio? They are usually quite easy to grow.


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## NYEric (Jan 4, 2010)

primulinum hybrids?


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## Rabbit (Jan 4, 2010)

Thanks for your suggestions. I've seen some of these and quite like them. Now I just have to track them down at the Show. How about paph concolor?


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## luvsorchids (Jan 4, 2010)

Welcome from Seattle. Paph. wardii is another good choice. 

Susan


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## Paphman910 (Jan 4, 2010)

Rabbit said:


> Thanks for your suggestions. I've seen some of these and quite like them. Now I just have to track them down at the Show. How about paph concolor?




Paph concolor would be another good choice.

Paphman910


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## Leo Schordje (Jan 4, 2010)

I will assume a terrarium in an apartment means the night temps are in the middle 60's F (about 18 C) or maybe even a little warmer. Any of the Indonesian and Malaysian species should do well, also the low elevation Thailand, Burma, & Indian species should be okay. I would stay away from the Chinese species generally because they want to be significantly cooler at night in winter. So with these thoughts I recomend:

Paphs niveum, godefroyae, & Greyii - and most of the hybrids in this group.

chamberlainianum (victoria-reginae), primulinum, glaucophyllum, Pinocchio, Salvador Dali, & liemianum; the hybrids here are especially easy.

appletonianum, virens (or javanicum), hookerae, callosum, lawrencianum, cilliolare, urbanianum, sukhakulii, superbiens, & curtisii

the only member of the insigne group I am certain doesn't want a cool off in winter is Paph exul, Paph insigne also may do okay in the terrerium, but if it doesn't bloom for you it might be because it needs a sharper day-night differential. 

Paph philippinense, stonei, praestans, lowii, & haynaldianum all like fairly warm temps, but they do need higher light than typical Maudiae hybrids to bloom well. Any rothschildianum hybrid with one of these species will be warm blooded enough that you can bloom them in a terrarium if there is enough light. All the hybrids from these species are easy to grow, especially with Paph lowii. (to some extent you can make up for low light intensity with longer daylength, say 18 hour days instead of 12 hour days) 

Hybrids that contain one or more species from this list should be easy in your conditions. If you run you home cooler at night in winter than my assumption, I think you could literally grow any Paph you wanted to, if you got light and other considerations in line. If you drop much below 60 F at night (15 C) you might have trouble with the warmer blooded Paphs on this list, though most of them are pretty tolerant to cooler than ideal conditions. 

Have fun, there are really few limits.


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## SlipperFan (Jan 4, 2010)

Welcome to Slippertalk, Rabbit! Lots of good suggestions above.

I just have one question: In your terrarium, do you have any air movement?


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## Rabbit (Jan 5, 2010)

Wow! That's a lot to digest, but I'm glad I have so many choices.

As far as air circulation, SlipperFan, I have 5 tanks - 4 are 18" in height, 1 is 24". I'm thinking of replacing one with another 24", so I can grow more of the taller plants, so perhaps I'll need to install a fan.

So far none of the tanks have fans. I'm not having any problems with mold or fog. I'm experimenting with various openings in the tanks. One tank is completely open, with only the light fixture covering the top. The humidity is lowest of the tanks at 40% to 50%. The others have glass partially covering the openings. I'm thinking I will have to put a fan into the taller tanks, but as I said, things are growing well and blooming, so should I leave well enough alone?


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## NYEric (Jan 5, 2010)

if it works stick with it.


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## goldenrose (Jan 5, 2010)

Leo Schordje said:


> chamberlainianum (victoria-reginae), glaucophyllum, Salvador Dali, & liemianum; the hybrids here are especially easy.
> 
> Paph philippinense, stonei, praestans, lowii, & haynaldianum all like fairly warm temps, rothschildianum hybrid with one of these species will be warm blooded enough that you can bloom them in a terrarium if there is enough light.


As mature, blooming size plants these are going to be too big for an aquarium. 



Rabbit said:


> Wow! That's a lot to digest, but I'm glad I have so many choices.
> 
> As far as air circulation, SlipperFan, I have 5 tanks - 4 are 18" in height, 1 is 24". I'm thinking of replacing one with another 24", so I can grow more of the taller plants, so perhaps I'll need to install a fan.
> 
> So far none of the tanks have fans. I'm not having any problems with mold or fog. I'm experimenting with various openings in the tanks. One tank is completely open, with only the light fixture covering the top. The humidity is lowest of the tanks at 40% to 50%. The others have glass partially covering the openings. I'm thinking I will have to put a fan into the taller tanks, but as I said, things are growing well and blooming, so should I leave well enough alone?



It is alot to digest but it will also depend on what is appealing to you.

If humidity is as low as 40-50%, why have them in an aquarium at all? Running a humidifier can give you that & you reap some of the benefits as well! Some of them, with the addition of flower spikes, will exceed 24", a big drop in humidity could be a major cause for blooms to blast.

The fan situation ...... I think you're playing with fire. I have a GH & I saw quite a difference in my plants when I added clip on fans. When it comes to aquariums it's hard to find appropriate size & power fans but they're out there.


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## Rabbit (Jan 5, 2010)

The reason that I'm growing in terrariums is mainly that I can control the light. In a city apartment, even in the summer, windows and growing space is at a premium. Terrariums look more attractive than large growing stands, and after 11:00 in the morning, I have no sun due to balcony overhangs and the like. Light meter readings in the middle of the day are under 1000, even under 500 fc.

As long as plants grow and bloom for me, I'm not going to install fans. I'm trying to keep it simple. Thanks again for everyone's advice.


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## parvi_17 (Jan 5, 2010)

I would get a delenatii, Magic Lantern, Ho Chi Minh, Pinocchio, villosum, insigne, spicerianum, Satin Smoke, Deperle, or Norito Hasegawa (or all of the above ). There are tons of easy-growing Paphs out there. These are just some of my suggestions based on my own experience.


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## goldenrose (Jan 6, 2010)

Joe - I'm puzzled by the recommendation of Ho Chi Minh & Satin Smoke (or most parvis). According to Nick Tanacci good air circulation is a must & to be honest it wasn't until I added more fans & lightened my mix that I saw an improvement in mine. We know they are sensitive to neem but should he have a fungal problem that could further weaken the plant(s) & now are there other chemicals that they could be sensitive to? I wouldn't think Satin Smoke or any slow grower would be easy.


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## parvi_17 (Jan 6, 2010)

goldenrose said:


> Joe - I'm puzzled by the recommendation of Ho Chi Minh & Satin Smoke (or most parvis). According to Nick Tanacci good air circulation is a must & to be honest it wasn't until I added more fans & lightened my mix that I saw an improvement in mine. We know they are sensitive to neem but should he have a fungal problem that could further weaken the plant(s) & now are there other chemicals that they could be sensitive to? I wouldn't think Satin Smoke or any slow grower would be easy.



I have never had any problems with any of the Parvis I mentioned. As a matter of fact, I have never had problems with any Parvis, but I listed some of the ones that are cheaper, easier to get, and easier to bloom. For me, they have been strong, vigorous growers and are easy bloomers (though Ho Chi Minh tends to grow slower). Satin Smoke in particular is very easy to grow, no more difficult than a Maudiae type. It blooms reliably each year and clumps up quickly. I am not a greenhouse grower and have no special set-ups. I don't even run fans most of the time. However, I don't grow in terraria. I'm just saying that in my experience, all of the plants I mentioned are easy to grow. I don't know why Parvis get such a bad rap for being hard to grow. Many are slow growers, and many are tough to bloom (and again, none of the ones I mentioned are), but they are not hard to grow. Maybe I'm just lucky.

If air movement is the issue here, I'm surprised you didn't question Leo's recommendation of Brachys, which are perhaps more prone to rot than any other type of Paph (By the way Leo, I'm not falsifying your recommendation, just mentioning it for the sake of this argument).


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## parvi_17 (Jan 6, 2010)

By the way, Nick Tannaci is a great grower. I've read articles he's written, and I use some of his techniques. However, you can't ever follow someone else's growing regimen, because no one has the same conditions in their growing area. For example, in a recent article published by Nick in the Orchid Digest, he describes his four-step watering and fertilizing program that he uses. A great program, but if I were to follow it exactly, I'd get undesirable results; for example, in step three, he waters the plants after they have dried out, I think it says 7-10 days. If I were to do that the plants would have been bone dry for 4 or 5 days before they got watered again. I would have to adjust this so that I water after about 2 or 3 days to get the same effect. Someone else might have to do the opposite. 

The number one most important thing you can do to advance this hobby is experiment. Definitely the advice of others is valuable, but it should all be taken with a grain of salt. There is no right or wrong way to grow orchids, and everyone has different experiences. So, I've made my recommendations based on my own experiences, and I stand by them. I do realize that Rabbit is growing in a terrarium, which has higher humidity than my growing areas. But honestly, in high humidity any Paph should get good air circulation, not just Parvis. Rabbit will have to experiment to see what works best for him/her, but I would be surprised if he/she had any more difficulty with the Parvis I mentioned than with any of the other Paphs mentioned here.


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## Rabbit (Jan 6, 2010)

I completely understand that everyone's growing conditions differ and can produce very different results. My conditions are probably at the extreme end of growing orchids. I have been looking at all your suggestions and will continue for a while. A lot will depend also on what I will find available at the Show.

Right now, because all my paphs are quite similar, I will try to find something completely different, yellow, pink, or white - something like niveum, delanatii, concolor, godefroyae, or hybrids from those groups. However, I might end up with something I don't expect if I fall in love with it at the show.

I am going to keep investigating all your suggestions over the internet. Thanks again.


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## Ernie (Jan 6, 2010)

parvi_17 said:


> The number one most important thing you can do to advance this hobby is experiment. Definitely the advice of others is valuable, but it should all be taken with a grain of salt. There is no right or wrong way to grow orchids, and everyone has different experiences.



Joe's a wise man. Must've heard one of my lectures.  

-Ernie


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## emydura (Jan 6, 2010)

parvi_17 said:


> I would get a delenatii, Magic Lantern, Ho Chi Minh, Pinocchio, villosum, insigne, spicerianum, Satin Smoke, Deperle, or Norito Hasegawa (or all of the above ). There are tons of easy-growing Paphs out there. These are just some of my suggestions based on my own experience.



While the paphiopedilum group (villosum, insigne, spicerianum) are generally very easy to grow, most of them need a cooling period in order to flower. The growing conditions described in the terrarium are very warm. I think you would have a snow flakes chance in hell of flowering an insigne at these temperatures. I think you are largely restricted to the warmer growing Paphs.

David


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## Paphman910 (Jan 6, 2010)

Your growing conditions are similar to my conditions in the apartment except that I grow them under 400W Metal Halide lights. My Paph delenati vinicolor compot grows really well under warm conditions.

Paphman910


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## parvi_17 (Jan 6, 2010)

emydura said:


> While the paphiopedilum group (villosum, insigne, spicerianum) are generally very easy to grow, most of them need a cooling period in order to flower. The growing conditions described in the terrarium are very warm. I think you would have a snow flakes chance in hell of flowering an insigne at these temperatures. I think you are largely restricted to the warmer growing Paphs.
> 
> David



You are probably right about that. I forgot about the warm winter temps when I mentioned insigne. Easy to grow, but does need a significant cool period to flower. However, I flower spicerianum and villosum easily in my warmer growing area, although even it is probably a little cooler than 19C at night in the winter, I'd say closer to 17C.


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## parvi_17 (Jan 6, 2010)

Ernie said:


> Joe's a wise man. Must've heard one of my lectures.
> 
> -Ernie



Actually, I missed your lecture when you came to Edmonton, but not by choice. I hope you will return in the future!


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## goldenrose (Jan 6, 2010)

parvi_17 said:


> I have never had any problems with any of the Parvis I mentioned. As a matter of fact, I have never had problems with any Parvis, but I listed some of the ones that are cheaper, easier to get, and easier to bloom. For me, they have been strong, vigorous growers and are easy bloomers (though Ho Chi Minh tends to grow slower). Satin Smoke in particular is very easy to grow, no more difficult than a Maudiae type. It blooms reliably each year and clumps up quickly........


I just have one question Joe -
why doe you have to live in Canada? I'd love to get some of these plants from you! I don't know if in the states these are going to be cheap or easy to get but sometimes if one is not looking for that type they don't recognize how available they might be. I would certainly think that with prim as a parent of Satin Smoke it should be easier, but that's what I thought of Brecko Bubble with liemianum as a parent too. Would you find it makes a difference as to which one is the pod parent?



parvi_17 said:


> If air movement is the issue here, I'm surprised you didn't question Leo's recommendation of Brachys, which are perhaps more prone to rot than any other type of Paph (By the way Leo, I'm not falsifying your recommendation, just mentioning it for the sake of this argument.


I'm not trying to argue with anyone, please don't feel like I'm picking on you! I didn't question Leo's comment, thinking more along the lines of niveum & delenatii are usually 2 easier brachys. When slow growing is factored in, I feel one needs to try to hit every aspect of culture right, there's less room for error. Beginners or experienced, we can all make mistakes or miss something and it could just boil down to that particular plant.
.... something told me I was making a mistake with that previous post!:wink:


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## parvi_17 (Jan 6, 2010)

goldenrose said:


> I just have one question Joe -
> why doe you have to live in Canada? I'd love to get some of these plants from you! I don't know if in the states these are going to be cheap or easy to get but sometimes if one is not looking for that type they don't recognize how available they might be. I would certainly think that with prim as a parent of Satin Smoke it should be easier, but that's what I thought of Brecko Bubble with liemianum as a parent too. Would you find it makes a difference as to which one is the pod parent?



It's actually not as easy as you may think to get plants in Canada. In the States, cities are much closer together. If you live in New York, you can travel to a different city in Pennsylvania or New Jersey in a couple hours, but in Canada (particularly in the part of the country where I live), you have to travel accross the second-largest country in the world to get anywhere, so shipping is the only option for buying from distant nurseries, which increases costs and risks. Because we have 1/10 the population of the States, there is also less demand for orchids, so there are far fewer vendors, meaning less selection overall. Therefore, if I want to get the rarest plants, I either have to buy from the States or Europe, or wait for those vendors to come to me. Every vendor in the States that ships outside the country has a $1000-2000 minimum order (thanks to CITES), so that's out of the question, and it can take a long time for the vendors I like to come to our show or society meetings! I am grateful, however, that the largest orchid nursery in Canada (Paramount Orchids) is in the fairly close-by city of Calgary, and we have many members in our society that buy abroad and sell divisions and extras from flasks, etc. So, it could be worse.

With that little rant out of the way, Satin Smoke is the only micranthum x Cochlo cross that I have grown, so I can't say much about the others. I also only have one cultivar of this hybrid, so if others are having difficulties, it could be that I got lucky with a strong individual, or more likely, a strong cross, as the nursery I bought it from continues to sell the plants (which presumably are from the same cross) and they turn up at shows in flower.




> I'm not trying to argue with anyone, please don't feel like I'm picking on you! I didn't question Leo's comment, thinking more along the lines of niveum & delenatii are usually 2 easier brachys. When slow growing is factored in, I feel one needs to try to hit every aspect of culture right, there's less room for error. Beginners or experienced, we can all make mistakes or miss something and it could just boil down to that particular plant.
> .... something told me I was making a mistake with that previous post!:wink:



No hard feelings here! I was just having a discussion with you. Sometimes I can come off as a little excited (in a negative way) when I talk about orchids online. But I didn't mean any harm.


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## orcoholic (Jan 6, 2010)

Paph Pinocchio, as suggested above is a good choice. It sepuential. Just keeps blooming and blooming off the same spike.


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## cnycharles (Jan 6, 2010)

so parvisepalums don't handle being sprayed with neem oil well? I was thinking about doing just that to some armeniacums...


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## parvi_17 (Jan 6, 2010)

cnycharles said:


> so parvisepalums don't handle being sprayed with neem oil well? I was thinking about doing just that to some armeniacums...



I have sprayed mine a few times (including my armeniacum) and haven't seen any damage...


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## goldenrose (Jan 7, 2010)

Whew - glad I didn't offend you & none taken on my end! I'm not always the most tactful person & I try to watch what I'm saying/typing, when we hang out long enough online we get to kinda get to know one another, (or at least we may think so :wink, & say things that a newcomer/stranger might take differently. I have taught pet obedience classes for 25 yrs. & when someone says they're a beginner I go into a different mode!


cnycharles said:


> so parvisepalums don't handle being sprayed with neem oil well? I was thinking about doing just that to some armeniacums...





parvi_17 said:


> I have sprayed mine a few times (including my armeniacum) and haven't seen any damage...



Rose had a moment, yesterday was goofy - 3 different jobs in one day! Sorry it's the brachys that are sensitive to neem.


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## NYEric (Jan 7, 2010)

Um, in the description of his growing areas [terrariums w/out fans] I would not recommend any of the Chinaparvis either.


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## Rabbit (Jan 7, 2010)

I like P. Norito Hasegawa and Pinocchio but the flower spike (in some pictures I've seen) are very tall. Are they?

And for the benefit of some of you who are doing the he/she thing - Rabbit is a she.


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## Clark (Jan 7, 2010)

One could always start a new grow area.


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## luvsorchids (Jan 7, 2010)

Clark E said:


> One could always start a new grow area.



Enabler oke:.

Susan


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## parvi_17 (Jan 7, 2010)

NYEric said:


> Um, in the description of his growing areas [terrariums w/out fans] I would not recommend any of the Chinaparvis either.



I would not recommend any Paph for a terrarium with no fans. You will find no article on Paph culture (or orchid culture for that matter) that doesn't say high humidity should be coupled with good air movement. Parvis are in no more need of this than other orchids. But it doesn't hurt for her to try, especially since she already grows orchids, including Paphs, in it. Obviously something about the terrarium is working.


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## parvi_17 (Jan 7, 2010)

Rabbit said:


> I like P. Norito Hasegawa and Pinocchio but the flower spike (in some pictures I've seen) are very tall. Are they?
> 
> And for the benefit of some of you who are doing the he/she thing - Rabbit is a she.



Either can get very tall, especially P. Pinocchio since it is a sequential bloomer. I've seen Pinocchio spikes that are 2 feet tall. The spikes on my Norito get about 16-18" tall. I've seen them shorter though. It may depend on how much light they get - the more light, the shorter they are. It could also be genetics.


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## Rabbit (Jan 7, 2010)

I understand the skepticism of some of the posters. I wasn't sure of my success either, when I started this terrarium thing a year and a half ago. Some info I had at the time was discouraging, and some said to do it.

But when My lone Maudiae rebloomed, I rescued 3 more sorry looking ones from a local nursery. I wasn't even sure of the colour because they were finished blooming. Well a couple days ago, I found a new bud on one of them. Another one I bought more recently, still in bloom, is also sending out buds.

Time will tell if I can sustain this growth. Maybe because I'm home all day ( I work at home) fiddling and fussing with the terrariums and removing the tops, the air doesn't get too stagnant.

I appreciate all your comments and ideas, even those that are not all positive.


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## Paphman910 (Jan 7, 2010)

parvi_17 said:


> Either can get very tall, especially P. Pinocchio since it is a sequential bloomer. I've seen Pinocchio spikes that are 2 feet tall. The spikes on my Norito get about 16-18" tall. I've seen them shorter though. It may depend on how much light they get - the more light, the shorter they are. It could also be genetics.





A suggestion: Cut off the flower spike!

Paphman910oke:


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## NYEric (Jan 7, 2010)

Rabbit said:


> And for the benefit of some of you who are doing the he/she thing - Rabbit is a she.



OOPS!


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## parvi_17 (Jan 7, 2010)

Rabbit said:


> I understand the skepticism of some of the posters. I wasn't sure of my success either, when I started this terrarium thing a year and a half ago. Some info I had at the time was discouraging, and some said to do it.
> 
> But when My lone Maudiae rebloomed, I rescued 3 more sorry looking ones from a local nursery. I wasn't even sure of the colour because they were finished blooming. Well a couple days ago, I found a new bud on one of them. Another one I bought more recently, still in bloom, is also sending out buds.
> 
> ...



I call the success you have had encouraging, and I don't think it would hurt to try something different. Good luck, and let us know how it goes! We love photos!


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## parvi_17 (Jan 7, 2010)

Paphman910 said:


> A suggestion: Cut off the flower spike!
> 
> Paphman910oke:



:rollhappy: Norito has nice leaves! It could be grown as a foliage plant .


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## Paphman910 (Jan 7, 2010)

parvi_17 said:


> :rollhappy: Norito has nice leaves! It could be grown as a foliage plant .




If it doesn't flower....call it a Jewel paph plantoke:

Paphman910


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## NYEric (Jan 7, 2010)

Wow! You guys are terrible! oke:


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## Ernie (Jan 7, 2010)

Rabbit said:


> And for the benefit of some of you who are doing the he/she thing - Rabbit is a she.



Hmmm. Is it fair to unleash Steve Jobs on a newbie folks??? There are tons of places we could go with this. 

-Ernie


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## cnycharles (Jan 7, 2010)

just wanted to point out a reminder that where someone lives/grows can make a big difference in their conditions and how they should approach growing their plants. though most people would never suggest trying to grow paphs in aquariums without air movement, since in most cases there would be too much humidity around the plant. I think though that here rabbit has much lower humidity in her house/apartment because of being in ontario and likely using central heat a lot. in effect, the moist air in the aquariums is probably almost sucked out into the much drier living areas, so there may be some passive air movement because of this. her conditions may be right on the edge where she hasn't had too many problems because of this, but if a few more plants were put in the tanks or a little more water was added over time, things may change the other way (and thing might start rotting)


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## baodai (Jan 7, 2010)

Rabbit,
Here is another suggestion for you, since you are living in CA, it is easy to get cold than get heat in the winter time. It requires a little bit work for 2 months but it can be done. You will then grow any paph you like.
Get some buckets of water and put it outside, when you got some ice, bring it inside, put the ice into a basket, then put the basket on top of the bucket. you can use a fan to blow cold air into your terrarium tank. In the morning you can remove the ice and start over again at night. It can be done if you put time into it.
Good luck,
BD


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## parvi_17 (Jan 7, 2010)

cnycharles said:


> just wanted to point out a reminder that where someone lives/grows can make a big difference in their conditions and how they should approach growing their plants.



That was exactly my point. You hit the nail on the head.


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