# Phrag. Emerald Fire -one step closer to a white Phrag-



## Drorchid (Sep 19, 2007)

Below is a picture of Phrag. Emerald Fire. This is from my line of breeding where in I am trying to create all white Phrag's. It is a cross between Phrag. calurum var grandiflora and Phrag. boissierieanum. It has allready been registered by Baker and Chantry back in 1995. I have to say it is one more step closer towards an all white Phrag. I have already crossed it to a clone of Phrag. Hanne Popow flavum which had a lot of white in it. 







Robert


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## paphioland (Sep 19, 2007)

very pretty


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## gore42 (Sep 19, 2007)

What exactly is "Phrag. calurum var grandiflora"?

Beautiful bloom!

- Matt


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## Drorchid (Sep 19, 2007)

Phrag. Calurum is longifolium x Sedenii. This is a picture of a regular Phrag. Calurum:






The Phrag. Calurum var. grandiflora clone that we have is an old clone that dates back to the late 1800's/ early 1900's and was made with a lighter colored Sedenii (having a almost white schlimii in it's background).

Here is a picture of Phrag. Calurum var. grandiflora:






You can see that by crossing Phrag. Calurum var grandiflora to boissierieanum the offspring has turned lighter in color, with more white in the pouch.

Robert


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## Kyle (Sep 19, 2007)

What do you think would have happened if you crossed it with the alba longifolium?

Kyle


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## kentuckiense (Sep 19, 2007)

Those are some fantastic looking blooms, but attaching varietal status to a hybrid makes me cringe.


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## Drorchid (Sep 19, 2007)

I agree that "technically" it should not have a varietal status, but back when this hybrid was created people used to do that, and because this is an old clone dating back to that era, and to differ from the regular Calurum we are keeping the old name.


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## Drorchid (Sep 19, 2007)

Kyle said:


> What do you think would have happened if you crossed it with the alba longifolium?
> 
> Kyle



I think we could get some all white ones out of that too. Unfortunately I don't have access to a alba longifolium. If you know anyone who does, I would love to have some pollen.

Robert


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## Kyle (Sep 19, 2007)

The last three times I have been to Ecuador, it has either just finished blooming or is in spike. I haven't seen the flowers since Decmeber 05.

Kyle


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## gore42 (Sep 19, 2007)

Drorchid said:


> Phrag. Calurum is longifolium x Sedenii. This is a picture of a regular Phrag. Calurum:
> 
> 
> The Phrag. Calurum var. grandiflora clone that we have is an old clone that dates back to the late 1800's/ early 1900's and was made with a lighter colored Sedenii (having a almost white schlimii in it's background).
> ...




Interesting, thanks. I've seen varieties listed for older crosses of Sedenii, but that was in the 19th Century... and I've never seen one listed for Calurum  

- Matt


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## SlipperFan (Sep 19, 2007)

Drorchid said:


> I think we could get some all white ones out of that too. Unfortunately I don't have access to a alba longifolium. If you know anyone who does, I would love to have some pollen.
> 
> Robert


That's beautiful, Robert. Do you think this cross will be consistent with this coloration? If so, are there any for sale???

I think Tom Kalina might have an alba longifolium.


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## Drorchid (Sep 20, 2007)

SlipperFan said:


> That's beautiful, Robert. Do you think this cross will be consistent with this coloration? If so, are there any for sale???
> 
> I think Tom Kalina might have an alba longifolium.



This has been the second seedling out of this cross that bloomed. The first one was similar in color, but not as well shaped. Unfortunately I only got about 5 seedlings out of this cross that germinated, and I will probably keep them all, for future breeding. But eventually they will be big enough, that we can sell divisions.

Robert


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## lothianjavert (Sep 20, 2007)

Lovely! I really like the delicate coloration: the white with touches of green and pink. Would definitely be one I'd make space for.


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## NYEric (Sep 20, 2007)

Could make some interesting crosses w/ the OZ Phrag Ice Princess which is currently popular.


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## Carol (Sep 21, 2007)

Robert,
Are Phrag Emerald Fire seedlings available for purchase?

Carol


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## NYEric (Sep 21, 2007)

Hahahaha


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## Hien (Sep 21, 2007)

Drorchid said:


> This has been the second seedling out of this cross that bloomed. The first one was similar in color, but not as well shaped. Unfortunately I only got about 5 seedlings out of this cross that germinated, and I will probably keep them all, for future breeding. But eventually they will be big enough, that we can sell divisions.
> 
> Robert


 Only 5 seedlings?
This makes me wonder,
whether when we select for certain trait that we think desirable, we may also do away with the fertility, flowering capability etc... trait of the original species. What I mean is, a plant with a smaller flower or less desirable color may generate a lot of viable seeds (but we do not breed those plants)
I also wonder about the reputation of certain species to be hard to raise, slow to grow, difficult to flower.
In nature, any plant that produces the most viable seeds will get to increase in number.


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## Drorchid (Sep 21, 2007)

Carol said:


> Robert,
> Are Phrag Emerald Fire seedlings available for purchase?
> 
> Carol




See my post above...... oke:

Robert


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## Drorchid (Sep 21, 2007)

Hien said:


> Only 5 seedlings?
> This makes me wonder,
> whether when we select for certain trait that we think desirable, we may also do away with the fertility, flowering capability etc... trait of the original species. What I mean is, a plant with a smaller flower or less desirable color may generate a lot of viable seeds (but we do not breed those plants)
> I also wonder about the reputation of certain species to be hard to raise, slow to grow, difficult to flower.
> In nature, any plant that produces the most viable seeds will get to increase in number.




With Phrags when you deal with complex crosses (involving multiple species) you get less and less germination over time. You usually get the most germination with primary crosses, or if you keep crossing species with the same number of chromosomes. In Phalaenoposis for example all species have the same number of chromosomes, thus you are able to make very complex crosses, and usually (depending on ploidy level) each hybrid is fertile.

In this case (crossing Phrag. Calurum with boissierieanum) you are dealing with different number of chromosomes in each parent. Also the Phrag. Calurum may have an uneven number of chromosomes, making it partially sterile, and thus only 5 seedlings were able to germinate.

The viablity of the seed (being able to germinate or not) has nothing to do with the vigor however. This plant is pretty vigourous (just as vigourous as it's boissierianum parent). Also luckily with Phrag seedlings, even though you sometimes get very low germination, you still can get multiple plants out of a cross, due to proliferation of the seedlings in the lab.

And it is true that some breeders overlook other qualities (like vigor, fragrance etc) when they are selecting for certain traits. But it is usually a trade off.

Robert


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## gonewild (Sep 21, 2007)

Drorchid said:


> Also luckily with Phrag seedlings, even though you sometime get very low germination, you still can get multiple plants out of a cross, due to proliferation of the seedlings in the lab.
> 
> Robert



When you get multiple plants "due to proliferation of seedlings in the lab" do you get unique seedlings or are they actually clones of each other with exact genetic makeup?


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## Drorchid (Sep 21, 2007)

gonewild said:


> When you get multiple plants "due to proliferation of seedlings in the lab" do you get unique seedlings or are they actually clones of each other with exact genetic makeup?



They are usually exact clones with the same genetic makeup. As an example is our Phrag. besseae 'Iccarus' clone. This was a seedling that kept poliferating, and I kept track of the individual clone.


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## gonewild (Sep 21, 2007)

Drorchid said:


> They are usually exact clones with the same genetic makeup. As an example is our Phrag. besseae 'Iccarus' clone. This was a seedling that kept poliferating, and I kept track of the individual clone.



When seedlings proliferate do you always keep track of the individual clones or are there often random seedlings created in each flask that are clones of siblings? Do those "twins" become part of the mixed general population?

For some reason my question seems a little hard to write into words, does it make sense?


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## Drorchid (Sep 21, 2007)

Yes it makes sense. When I am dealing with an important cross, and I only have a few seedlings that germinated (less than 20), Yes, I keep track of the individual clones. But say if I am dealing with a sib cross of a species, and I get 500 seedlings to germinate. Even though they are proliferating, no I don't keep track of the individual clones, so in the end when you have 200 seedlings in that cross that get planted out (I usually don't keep all of them, but select the most vigorous ones) you can end up with 10 seedlings within the 200 that are actually clones of each other, so to answer your question, yes those "twins" become part of the mixed general population. Another reason I don't track them if I have a lot of germination, it is harder to determine what the individual clones/seedlings are.

Also this proliferation does not always occur, most of the time you get one plant out of each seedling. Or sometimes I only get a few seedlings to germinate, of which only one or 2 will proliferate, but the others will not.

Robert


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## gonewild (Sep 21, 2007)

Is there any relation to vigor and the proliferation? Do the individuals that proliferate tend to be the most vigorous or weakest?


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## Drorchid (Sep 21, 2007)

Not that I can tell. (I think it is a genetic trait that alows them to proliferate or not, but it is not neccesarily linked to vigor).


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## Kyle (Sep 21, 2007)

From my observations with phrags, is that the seed media will affect proliferation quite a bit.

I would like to find out a media recipe that doesn't cause proliferation, and encourages root growth. I have phrags to replate in the next couple of weeks.

Kyle


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## Drorchid (Sep 21, 2007)

Kyle said:


> From my observations with phrags, is that the seed media will affect proliferation quite a bit.
> 
> I would like to find out a media recipe that doesn't cause proliferation, and encourages root growth. I have phrags to replate in the next couple of weeks.
> 
> Kyle



I agree, that the media has a big effect too, but that does not explain why some seedlings within the same cross do proliferate and others do not. Also I have noticed that long petalled species (caudatum etc) tend not to proliferate, while anything with besseae proliferates a lot (even if you use the same media).

To prevent too much proliferation I have increased the percentage of auxins, and have noticed that seems to help (promotes root growth and inhibits shoot formation).

Robert


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## Kyle (Sep 21, 2007)

Your right that long petals don't appear to proliferate. I got wallisi x kovachii and not a single proliferation, while my kovachii x besseae and kovachii x schlimii proliferated like crazy. Now I just have to get them to grow roots.

What do you use as an auxin? Would banana be a good source? Do you use charcoal in your replate media?

Kyle


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## gonewild (Sep 21, 2007)

Drorchid said:


> Not that I can tell. (I think it is a genetic trait that alows them to proliferate or not, but it is not neccesarily linked to vigor).



Have you noticed if the plants that you produced with the proliferation tend to grow more shoots when they mature than their normal siblings? In other words does the genetic trait to proliferate in the seed flask carry through to adult hood to make a busher plant?


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## gonewild (Sep 21, 2007)

Kyle said:


> Your right that long petals don't appear to proliferate. I got wallisi x kovachii and not a single proliferation, while my kovachii x besseae and kovachii x schlimii proliferated like crazy. Now I just have to get them to grow roots.
> 
> Kyle



So what you will wind up with is a a lot of plants that are clones as opposed to a lot of different seedlings. 

I wonder how many kovachii species seedlings are actually repetitious clones rather than unique individuals? That would certainly account for all the pictures of the kovachii protocorm masses people have posted in the flasks they bought. Maybe the kovachii gene pool is going to be rather small.


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## Kyle (Sep 21, 2007)

Lance your right, I will end up with a bunch of clones. But the wallisi cross should be all distinct clones. I agree the pools will be smaller then assumed.

I really think that the sowing media makes a big difference in the amount of proliferation. I have been able to get proliferation from the species seedlings I got in June. Not much, but a few.

Kyle


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## Drorchid (Sep 21, 2007)

gonewild said:


> Have you noticed if the plants that you produced with the proliferation tend to grow more shoots when they mature than their normal siblings? In other words does the genetic trait to proliferate in the seed flask carry through to adult hood to make a busher plant?



No, once they are out of the lab (not growing on tissue culture) they don't seem to proliferate/become bushy anymore, and the ones that proliferated in the lab grow the same compared to the ones that did not proliferate.


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## gonewild (Sep 21, 2007)

Drorchid said:


> No, once they are out of the lab (not growing on tissue culture) they don't seem to proliferate/become bushy anymore, and the ones that proliferated in the lab grow the same compared to the ones that did not proliferate.



Thanks for the info it is very interesting.


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## Hien (Sep 21, 2007)

Kyle said:


> Lance your right, I will end up with a bunch of clones. But the wallisi cross should be all distinct clones. I agree the pools will be smaller then assumed.
> 
> I really think that the sowing media makes a big difference in the amount of proliferation. I have been able to get proliferation from the species seedlings I got in June. Not much, but a few.
> 
> Kyle



Kyle,
I agree with you totally about the medium formula assessment.
All my pk flasks from peru-flora proliferate like crazy. small things grow by the hundred but not too many roots.

I think they should adjust the formula to reduce the proliferation & transfer some of those grow energy to the root system.

I may be wrong but I think Peruflora formula may be the answer to get a lot of identical clones for phrag. But you do have to switch the formula at 1st replate stage to stop that tendency & encourage roots development.


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## gonewild (Sep 21, 2007)

Kyle said:


> I really think that the sowing media makes a big difference in the amount of proliferation. I have been able to get proliferation from the species seedlings I got in June. Not much, but a few.
> 
> Kyle



Were they already proliferating when you got them or did you induce the proliferation?


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## Hien (Sep 21, 2007)

gonewild said:


> Were they already proliferating when you got them or did you induce the proliferation?



Lance,
When I first got the flasks, there are 7 single growth seedlings in each.
After a while, each of them becomes 20 growths or more, but they don't grow bigger or grow large leaf. sometimes they produce these broccoli head at the top of the trunk, sometimes tiny pieces from those broccoli head detach themselves, fall onto the medium & start again (I did not move or touch the flasks, so no movement that would induce the detaching)


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## tan (Sep 21, 2007)

Nice,
white color? you are getting there.....


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## gonewild (Sep 21, 2007)

Hien said:


> Lance,
> When I first got the flasks, there are 7 single growth seedlings in each.
> After a while, each of them becomes 20 growths or more, but they don't grow bigger or grow large leaf. sometimes they produce these broccoli head at the top of the trunk, sometimes tiny pieces from those broccoli head detach themselves, fall onto the medium & start again (I did not move or touch the flasks, so no movement that would induce the detaching)



Hien, 
Are they still alive and proliferating still after all this time?


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## Hien (Sep 21, 2007)

gonewild said:


> Hien,
> Are they still alive and proliferating still after all this time?



The ones that survive the heat are alive, the one that can not handle the heat die.
Yes they still do this crazy thing, brocoli head & sprout. If I have a lab facility, I bet I can divide 30 plantlets from each of the original seedling
But, because of the roots are scarce & the leaves are needle thin, most of the deflasked ones have a tough time to survive. I am sure professional growers get totally different outcome.
I may have to take them out no matter what regardless of sizes & roots situation , because they seems to approach the exhaution stage now.

I never seen this before in any flask that I bought (this formula is very different) I seen the same thing with another person's Peru-flora pk flask.
So it is not coincidental.

I suspect that if you can unveil this proprietary formula, you hold in your hand the key to mericlone the slipper orchids. Or close to that goal.


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## gonewild (Sep 21, 2007)

Hien said:


> The ones that survive the heat are alive, the one that can not handle the heat die.
> Yes they still do this crazy thing, brocoli head & sprout. If I have a lab facility, I bet I can divide 30 plantlets from each of the original seedling
> But, because of the roots are scarce & the leaves are needle thin, most of the deflasked ones have a tough time to survive. I am sure professional growers get totally different outcome.
> I may have to take them out no matter what regardless of sizes & roots situation , because they seems to approach the exhaution stage now.
> ...



Why don't you send your protocorms to a lab and have them divided and repleted onto medium that will induce roots? Or buy the supplies and do it yourself in your kitchen?


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