# Roth flasks from TON



## kiwi (Jan 25, 2016)

I am thinking about buying roth flasks from Tokyo Orchid Nursery in particular mount millais x tarantula. They are very pricey and so was wondering firstly is this cross a good one or has the breeding moved on from this? Also what is the quality of flasks from TON?
Thanks


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## Ozpaph (Jan 25, 2016)

I've seen their flasks - exceptional quality. If it weren't for the price I'd snap them up.(and may still........)
Brad has plenty of experience with TON and roths, he's the best person to comment.


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## paphioland (Jan 25, 2016)

tarantula is the best roth from TON crossed back to its parent MM. Im not a huge fan of going back to MM in this cross. Ive imported close to 50 flasks from TON. They are high quality and large in flask.


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## Ozpaph (Jan 26, 2016)

paphioland said:


> tarantula is the best roth from TON crossed back to its parent MM. Im not a huge fan of going back to MM in this cross. Ive imported close to 50 flasks from TON. They are high quality and large in flask.



Why dont you like the back cross, If I can ask?


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## cattmad (Jan 26, 2016)

TON's flask quality is the best in the world, daylight second

Other thing to consider is you will likely get 30 to 35 plants in the flask not 20 so it's makes the price more reasonable

Ken, can you give us your view of why the MM back cross isn't something you would do?


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## cattmad (Jan 26, 2016)

I've bought about 30 flask from him myself, excellent flasks


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## kiwi (Jan 26, 2016)

Do they mind just a couple of flasks at a time?


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## cattmad (Jan 26, 2016)

That's no problem, you going to JPG?


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## kiwi (Jan 26, 2016)

Not this year but definitely next. A bucket list item for me. Do you go?


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## cattmad (Jan 26, 2016)

Yes im heading up again this year

How are you going to get flask from TON, got someone else going to pick them up for you?


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## kiwi (Jan 26, 2016)

I was hoping they would send over to New Zealand as Sam does.


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## cattmad (Jan 26, 2016)

PM'd you


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## Fabrice (Jan 26, 2016)

In my opinion, to cross Tarantula with the best of its 2 parents = MM is a very good idea.

If TON came in Europe, sure I would try some roths flasks. This cross and other of course!


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## cattmad (Jan 26, 2016)

I'm considering the Rex x tokyo fantasy cross


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## Justin (Jan 26, 2016)

I think the only drawback of backcrossing to MM is it is not likely to increase the flower size in the progeny any further. Color and form will be terrific though. That being said I would grow it myself.


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## ehanes7612 (Jan 26, 2016)

how does one get a TON flask list?


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## Justin (Jan 26, 2016)

http://www.tokyoorchidnursery.com/list/


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## Fabrice (Jan 27, 2016)

Justin said:


> I think the only drawback of backcrossing to MM is it is not likely to increase the flower size in the progeny any further. Color and form will be terrific though. That being said I would grow it myself.



Yes and no. MM x Val produced several awarded plants with more 30cms size while MM is not known for its big size and Val is smaller than MM.
(Dont' forget too TON use a special method to increase flower size. I think if I buy Tarantula tomorrow, I will never obtain 39cms flower size!)

If TON crossed MM with Tarantula, it's exactly to add Tarantula size to the color and form of MM, what is yet one of the best genetic parent.
Often, we know Big size x big size will produce big size but it's not always this result. Genetic is more complicated and the best results are often from a complementary cross. 
In my opinion, it's better to cross 2 plants with different characteristics than to cross big size x big size OR dark color x dark color, etc...


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## paphioland (Jan 27, 2016)

Fabrice said:


> Yes and no. MM x Val produced several awarded plants with more 30cms size while MM is not known for its big size and Val is smaller than MM.
> (Dont' forget too TON use a special method to increase flower size. I think if I buy Tarantula tomorrow, I will never obtain 39cms flower size!)
> 
> If TON crossed MM with Tarantula, it's exactly to add Tarantula size to the color and form of MM, what is yet one of the best genetic parent.
> ...



tarantula has better color and size than MM, so do most of the top roths.


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## Fabrice (Jan 27, 2016)

Yes you're right but don't forget the potential genetic. MM proved to have a fantastic one.
Tarantula is MM x Val and in my opinion, the problem is Val in its genetic potential.
Tarantula is awesome but not sure it will be fantastic as parent.

In my opinion, I prefer to cross Tarantula with MM than to cross Tarantula with another "MM x Val" like Raptor or Perfection for example.

And to be honest, I prefer the roth. crosses with 2 parents from 2 differents breeding lines. For example "MM x Val" x "Green Valley x Dou Fong" or yet "MM x Val" x "MM x Rex" or even "MM x Val" x "Reachout x self"

Just my opinion. 

Because I have a last question. How many awarded plants (or potentially awarded) from "MM x Val" for how many bloomed? To know the percentage would be very interesting.


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## paphioland (Jan 27, 2016)

Fabrice said:


> Yes you're right but don't forget the potential genetic. MM proved to have a fantastic one.
> Tarantula is MM x Val and in my opinion, the problem is Val in its genetic potential.
> Tarantula is awesome but not sure it will be fantastic as parent.
> 
> ...



Id much rather have tarantula outcrossed to some other genetics. MM is always there. You already got the best of MM in the parent flowers, probably mm is the backround of the outcross as well. Why go back and get the bad parts of MM? MM wasn't that spectacular compared to modern roths. Id go back to tarantula just because nothing has come close to it.

I have bloomed out multiple Tarantula offspring. It will be a good parent. The best two roths I bloomed last year had tarantula as a parent. I already put a pod on it.


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## Fabrice (Jan 27, 2016)

Don't ask me why TON crossed Tarantula to MM. But ask Machan. I think there's a good reason and not just for his curiosity. You think this cross will get the bad parts of MM. I (and probably Machan too) think this cross will highlight the MM qualities added to the Tarantula size. In fact, I think this cross will give more percentage of awarded plants, simply. and many more than "MM x Val" and even "MM x Val" X "MM x Val".
About "MM x Val", I think the weakness of the cross was "Val" and necessarily, Tarantula have bad parts of Val in their genetic pool. To cross it again with a sister plant "MM x Val" is is not necessarily a good idea , or at least does not necessarily give a high rate of awarded plants , even if the other parent is as good as Tarantula.

I think phenotype is important but global genetic vision is more important.

About your Tarantula crosses, please give me the link to see the pictures because I don't remember to have already saw a bloom with Tarantula as parent on this forum. And I'm of course very interested!


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## kiwi (Jan 27, 2016)

So for you Roth experts which cross do you consider to have the best potential Mont Millais x tarantula or Rex x Tokyo Fantasy?


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## Justin (Jan 27, 2016)

The MM cross should have darker color while the Rex cross should be bigger with lighter yellow color.


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## emydura (Feb 2, 2016)

I'd love to have a flask or two involving 'Tarantula' or 'Tokyo Fantasy' but none of those crosses seem that appealing to me. They don't seem like a step forward. The price is a bit steep, notwithstanding the high number of healthy seedlings. That 'Tarantula' cross would cost $750 AUD. I think Sam's "Giant Wings" x "Canadian Club" has more potential and it is only around $250 AUD. 

I think there have been better 'Tarantula' and 'Tokyo fantasy' crosses on previous catalogs. Still you never seem to see 'Tarantula' or 'Tokyo fantasy' crossed with some of the other great TON clones such as "Giant Wings" or "Raptor". None of us could afford it anyway.


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## Ozpaph (Feb 2, 2016)

I like the Rex X TF - add some more size (hopefully) to one of the best roth in the world - already 34cm with 6.4cm dorsal.


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## Fabrice (Feb 2, 2016)

About price I agree. Yes, TON is probably the best roth. breeder in the world but I find the price is a little "optimistic"... 

@OZpaph: I agree with you. This cross is maybe "the best quality/price ratio".


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## paphioland (Feb 2, 2016)

emydura said:


> I'd love to have a flask or two involving 'Tarantula' or 'Tokyo Fantasy' but none of those crosses seem that appealing to me. They don't seem like a step forward. The price is a bit steep, notwithstanding the high number of healthy seedlings. That 'Tarantula' cross would cost $750 AUD. I think Sam's "Giant Wings" x "Canadian Club" has more potential and it is only around $250 AUD.
> 
> I think there have been better 'Tarantula' and 'Tokyo fantasy' crosses on previous catalogs. Still you never seem to see 'Tarantula' or 'Tokyo fantasy' crossed with some of the other great TON clones such as "Giant Wings" or "Raptor". None of us could afford it anyway.



There are Tarantula x perfection and Tarantula x giant wings. I have a bunch of them. I think that Machan has made Tarantula x Raptor but he doesnt sell them. I will make the cross soon but dont know if I will sell any.


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## Fabrice (Feb 2, 2016)

Do you mean you have Tarantula division and Raptor division in your collection?

About my previous request, I ask you again pictures or links to see your blooms of last generation roth. with Tarantula and others. 

Thank you.


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## paphioland (Feb 2, 2016)

Fabrice said:


> Do you mean you have Tarantula division and Raptor division in your collection?
> 
> About my previous request, I ask you again pictures or links to see your blooms of last generation roth. with Tarantula and others.
> 
> Thank you.



Yes. I have the three you are talking about Tarantula, Tokyo Fantasy and Raptor

Uploading pics takes time lol which I have little of. When I get around to it I will.


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## ronan (Feb 2, 2016)

paphioland said:


> Yes. I have the three you are talking about Tarantula, Tokyo Fantasy and Raptor
> 
> Uploading pics takes time lol which I have little of. When I get around to it I will.



no offense, but you write a lot and we don't see a lot! just like Xavier, lot of references and knowledge for sure, but always promissing things, talking about all they have, but we saw nothing...5 pictures in 2015 (including a "just ok" roth), and 3 in 2014, and no roth...but many internet pictures and speculations. oke:
It's time to show us your benches, right? or let me know who you are.
thx


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## theorchidzone (Feb 2, 2016)

I can verify that Paphioland has everything he says he has.
It is also abundantly clear that his views are well informed.
JC




ronan said:


> no offense, but you write a lot and we don't see a lot! just like Xavier, lot of references and knowledge for sure, but always promissing things, talking about all they have, but we saw nothing...5 pictures in 2015 (including a "just ok" roth), and 3 in 2014, and no roth...but many internet pictures and speculations. oke:
> It's time to show us your benches, right? or let me know who you are.
> thx


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## ronan (Feb 2, 2016)

theorchidzone said:


> I can verify that Paphioland has everything he says he has.
> It is also abundantly clear that his views are well informed.
> JC


good to know, but still nothing to see...:rollhappy:


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## emydura (Feb 2, 2016)

Ozpaph said:


> I like the Rex X TF - add some more size (hopefully) to one of the best roth in the world - already 34cm with 6.4cm dorsal.



I agree, that is probably the pick. It will add a bit of genetic diversity. But I think I would prefer it if TF was crossed with a select clone of 'Rex' x 'MM' rather than just 'Rex' itself. That would be more of a step forward.


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## cattmad (Feb 2, 2016)

TON did offer other TF crosses last year.

I bought flasks of black star x TF and another non related one macura five star x TF

MFS is wild collected but huge according to TON


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## Fabrice (Feb 3, 2016)

Agree with ronan.

About division of all the best roths in the world, maybe they are not already bloomed at your house. So, I will be patient for them.

But when you told us you had bloomed several crosses with Tarantula and other, I immediatly searched on the forum. No picture while they are the last generation of select TON roth. Very surprising.

Please take a little time and let's share this pleasure with us!


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## emydura (Feb 3, 2016)

cattmad said:


> TON did offer other TF crosses last year.
> 
> I bought flasks of black star x TF and another non related one macura five star x TF
> 
> MFS is wild collected but huge according to TON



I liked those crosses much better. I think there was also 'Black Star' x 'Tarantula' x and 'Black Star' x 'Raptor'.


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## Ozpaph (Feb 4, 2016)

Did you get some???


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## emydura (Feb 4, 2016)

Ozpaph said:


> Did you get some???



No. A little pricey for me especially as I'm not 100% confident yet in my deflasking ability. I also didn't realise the quality and quantity of seedlings in the flask. Plus I didn't expect they would post one or two flasks.


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## paphioland (Feb 14, 2016)

kiwi said:


> So for you Roth experts which cross do you consider to have the best potential Mont Millais x tarantula or Rex x Tokyo Fantasy?



Im not crazy about either cross compared to other TON roth crosses. Depends on your taste. I think that the tokyo fantasy cross with rex will probably make really nice roths but they will have yellow. If that doesn't bother you go for it. The tarantula cross will be nice too I just don't think it has much chance of passing tarantula with regression toward the mean plus going back to a parent. The general quality of the cross will likely be raised though.


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## paphioland (Feb 14, 2016)

ronan said:


> no offense, but you write a lot and we don't see a lot! just like Xavier, lot of references and knowledge for sure, but always promissing things, talking about all they have, but we saw nothing...5 pictures in 2015 (including a "just ok" roth), and 3 in 2014, and no roth...but many internet pictures and speculations. oke:
> It's time to show us your benches, right? or let me know who you are.
> thx



You're a funny guy.:rollhappy:


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## paphioland (Feb 14, 2016)

I'm a gentleman, I don't waste time taking pics of every orchid that blooms to post on the internet. Instead I make a roth bouquet for the lady. Two are Perfection x Tarantula. See if you can pic them Ronan and Fabrice.


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## Fabrice (Feb 14, 2016)

I agree, Ronan is a funny guy. 

But when I look at your last picture, I think he's not alone... 

What I don't understand, you take your precious time to take in picture some roths what are not exceptional. But you keep for you the best blooms. I don't understand the logic, that's all.

But you're a free gentleman...


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## Justin (Feb 14, 2016)

This thread is too funny.

Really nice roth flowers. Love the one in front w the dark petals.


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## paphioland (Feb 14, 2016)

Justin said:


> This thread is too funny.
> 
> Really nice roth flowers. Love the one in front w the dark petals.



That's one of the first bloom perfection x tarantula. Bloomed on a tiny plant.


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## paphioland (Feb 14, 2016)

Fabrice said:


> I agree, Ronan is a funny guy.
> 
> But when I look at your last picture, I think he's not alone...
> 
> ...



Don't hate the playa, hate the game. 

I am relatively free, at least for now. 

I take pics when I'm in the mood. I'm excited by seeing the first of a new cross. I'm not too busy that week with work. I'm going to sell it. The plant bloomed to expectation. When , time is on my side. Pictures of orchids to post are low on my list of priorities.


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## Justin (Feb 14, 2016)

that is clearly the winner out of the group. what's the flower at the very top? with the dark pouch it looks like it could be an OZ red baron cross.


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## paphioland (Feb 14, 2016)

Justin said:


> that is clearly the winner out of the group. what's the flower at the very top? with the dark pouch it looks like it could be an OZ red baron cross.



I have no idea. Prob have over 500 oz roths so it is possible. I think most of them were first blooms from new ton crosses. I clearly remember the one with dark petals as it was one of the best on such a small plant. Hence I cut it so it can bloom to potential hopefully next year.


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## Fabrice (Feb 14, 2016)

I like a lot the middle flower with dorsal "flame".

And of course, the 1st one color petals is very interesting.


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## emydura (Feb 15, 2016)

WOW. A bouquet of roths. The Tarantula cross clone is wonderful. Great colour.

It would be nice if you took a good photo of your 'Tarantula' clone when it is well flowered. All the photos I have seen on the internet are terrible making it hard to judge.

You say 'Tarantula' and 'Tokyo Fantasy' are by far the best clones. Have you crossed these two or are planning to?


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## cattmad (Feb 15, 2016)

paphioland said:


> Im not crazy about either cross compared to other TON roth crosses. Depends on your taste. I think that the tokyo fantasy cross with rex will probably make really nice roths but they will have yellow. If that doesn't bother you go for it. The tarantula cross will be nice too I just don't think it has much chance of passing tarantula with regression toward the mean plus going back to a parent. The general quality of the cross will likely be raised though.



That's what I figured, the average will be better, but tarantula is going to be very difficult to surpass


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## Fabrice (Feb 16, 2016)

Here we can find a "better" picture of Tarantula.

http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/widehill01/3026653.html

About this wonderful clone, is Machan bloomed it with more 4 flowers? If not, it's maybe one way to progress and to create a Super Tarantula with 5 to 6 flowers.

Now necessary to find a 6 very good flowers roth and there are not a lot. (In fact, I have just one in my mind)


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## Ozpaph (Feb 16, 2016)

Thanks for those photo links


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## cattmad (Feb 16, 2016)

Fabrice said:


> Here we can find a "better" picture of Tarantula.
> 
> http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/widehill01/3026653.html
> 
> ...



Two years ago Machan offered flasks of 'Knights sunshine' x 'tarantula'. Knights sunshine is known to flower with 6 flowers


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## emydura (Feb 16, 2016)

Thanks Fabrice. That is a nicer photo than I have seen previously. There are photos from that show but they don't have the same punch.

'Tarantula' is pretty amazing, but based purely on photos I still prefer 'Tokyo Fantasy'. The colour is so incredible and unique. That is a very distinctive roth. Maybe if I saw them in person I would have a different opinion as size doesn't translate to photos.

http://www.tokyoorchidnursery.com/2012/12/13/paph-rothschildianum-tokyo-fantasy-gm-eoc/


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## Fabrice (Feb 16, 2016)

cattmad said:


> Two years ago Machan offered flasks of 'Knights sunshine' x 'tarantula'. Knights sunshine is known to flower with 6 flowers



Ok, thank you for information but are you sure about that?

In 2008, Knight sunshine bloomed with 4 flowers. But it was maybe not in perfect conditions.

http://www.orchidweb.jp/orchidshow/jgp2008/red_ribbon.htm


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## paphioland (Feb 16, 2016)

Fabrice said:


> Here we can find a "better" picture of Tarantula.
> 
> http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/widehill01/3026653.html
> 
> ...



Tarantula has flowered with 5 flowers.


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## cattmad (Feb 16, 2016)

Fabrice said:


> Ok, thank you for information but are you sure about that?
> 
> In 2008, Knight sunshine bloomed with 4 flowers. But it was maybe not in perfect conditions.
> 
> http://www.orchidweb.jp/orchidshow/jgp2008/red_ribbon.htm



Yes, Machan told me


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## e-spice (Feb 17, 2016)

paphioland said:


> I'm a gentleman, I don't waste time taking pics of every orchid that blooms to post on the internet. Instead I make a roth bouquet for the lady. Two are Perfection x Tarantula. See if you can pic them Ronan and Fabrice.



That may be the world's most expensive bouquet.


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## Fabrice (Feb 17, 2016)

Of course not! No value in it! Just a special bouquet of love for the "frenchies"! :smitten:


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## ronan (Feb 17, 2016)

2flowers/stem?! oke:. 
i don't think you're a gentleman, not with such nails and delicate fingers...
thx for the picture btw, i may reiterate my provocation to get the best from you .


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