# Erwinia or minor infection?



## Kostas (Sep 19, 2015)

Hello,

Saw this on my P. kovachii this morning:












I applied a topical gram + and - antibiotic and the progress slowed down but it still is spreading, but quite slowly thankfully. Is this Erwinia or a minor rot of no consequence? That scale like leaf has been wrinkled since I got the plant a couple months back and I always expected that leaf to dehisce but the upper part of it has been healthy(the lower is dirty from the Erwinia infection it arrived with which ruined the mother rosette but I saved the pups with sanitation, hydrogen peroxide and antibiotics)and the lower has been hanging on with no active infection, till today morning(now it's night). Can I leave it there or shall I remove it? It's just that I have been waiting for it to bulk up and grow big and now I saw this, don't want to have to remove something yet again. If it's a minor infection, I would prefer to leave it dry there. Or I could bruise the damage on the surface to accelerate drying. Or just keep on the antibiotics till the plant kills the infection and infected tissues with its phenols

Thank you very much in advance!


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## Kostas (Sep 19, 2015)

The leaf was starting to yellow and the infection was moderately spreading, so I ended up removing the whole leaf. I see no infection below, did an antibiotic wash, dried the wound and the leaf bases below and hope all is clear again. The plant is growing well


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## abax (Sep 19, 2015)

I've been fighting this kind of bacterial infection on a couple
of Phrags. all summer. If the blotches return, get some
Dragon's Blood. I tried just about everything you've tried and the infection kept returning. The Dragon's Blood has
stopped it completely.


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## troy (Sep 20, 2015)

More air flow!!


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## Kostas (Sep 20, 2015)

Thank you very much for your replies!

I agree Troy, it's probably that but it's currently indoors and airflow can only be so much indoors and close to windows. I don't wet the plant though. 
I will try placing it in another spot that may allow a little more air circulation. If that doesn't solve it, I may have to get it outdoors again but I cleaned it when reporting and want to risk snails again

I will try getting some dragon's blood if it reoccurs. Do you apply that on top of the infection or do you still have to excise the infected tissues?


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## Erythrone (Sep 20, 2015)

I don't see any real problem here. Maybe there is an "infection" on this dying lower leaf since many fungii and bacterias colonize dying or dead tissues. But most of the time they are unable to establish on a healthy plant.

You wrote the scale llike leaf has been wrinkle since a few months. Trying to rescue a shrivelling/yellowing leaf with such a spot is not a good idea IMO and if you apply antibiotics as soon you see a spot, the bacterias (if it is a bacteria) can become antibiotic resistant. 

IMO such a small lower leaf dying is not really of concern ... Just remove it. If you are afraid of infection on the remaining growth, I would just apply dragon's blood or cinnamon.


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## abax (Sep 21, 2015)

I put the D's B directly on the affected area and put enough
to slide down into the area and down into the root zone.
Usually two or three drops does the trick if the area of bacterial infection isn't large.


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## Kostas (Sep 22, 2015)

Thank you very much Erythrone, great to know there was no real problem!I know exactly what you say, dying tissues are easily colonised by saprophytic microorganisms with no consequence for the plant usually as they have already been cut off by the plant.

Yes, that scale like leaf was wrinkled for months, but only the last day before removal did it start to yellow. It probably was its time to go as you said.

The rest of the plant is fine and growing well, no infection of the point of leaf dehiscence.

Thank you abax, i will keep it in mind and order some eventually


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## Kostas (Sep 22, 2015)

My newest P. kovachii arrived today with this on a couple of its leafs. What is it? I dont see any patterning on the newest leafs so i think that excludes virus. The seller told me that this happens in high temperatures and its probably mesophyll cell collapse. What do you think? I think he might be right about what it is but mine never did that in the high heat i grew it. It may be culture and fertilizer/water quality related maybe, such as too much K or too poor water in Ca or Mg making the leafs susceptible to it? Not sure but i think i should not see any of this under my care




In certain areas of a few leafs, i saw a yellow powder like covering the leaf underside in a patch. Thrips?




I also found orchid snails in the substrate. How do you deal with this and how do you get rid of them? I think they can damage orchid roots pretty extensively from what i have seen in other orchids of mine

Thank you very much in advance


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## abax (Sep 22, 2015)

I think I'd send the pictures to the seller. The vendor should send you either a replacement or your money back.
This discoloration and snails too is just too much crap to
be sending this to a buyer. I'd be quite angry if I received a plant with this kind of damage.


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## Kostas (Sep 23, 2015)

I did sent them asking for info on cause and what to do. Got a short reply about it. I can't say I am angry about the damage as it's something that tends to happen and kovachii hate the drying out 1 and a half weeks in the mail can do. Packing could have been different to keep it moister, but it was very well packed in general. I saw photos of the plant prior to shipment, the broken leafs were broken from back then and I can just barely discern that the dark discoloration on the leafs was present from then, but the angle of the photos doesn't allow easy viewing of it. Any idea what causes this? I am thinking malnutrition in conjunction to some kind of stressor as i see none of it on the new leafs. All ideas welcome 

No matter from which orchid nursery I have purchased, orchid snails and slugs have been pretty universal hitchhikers with very few exceptions where I am pleasantly surprised! With a very thorough repot, I have gotten some of my orchids rid of them but it's not possible with all orchids as many retain a fair amount of medium stuck on the roots. I also don't like repotting just to get rid of the snails, if there is another way totally safe for the plant and non-toxic for me, it would be great


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## Erythrone (Sep 23, 2015)

I agree the first pic could be mesophyll collapse ... I sometimes saw this on Phrags when the temperature is very high. Not a great concern IMO if you adjust the temperarature before the plant declines.


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## Kostas (Sep 23, 2015)

Thank you very much Erythrone, great to have some confirmation on it! This is past damage, not under my care, so its not saying me anything yet. The weather is cool currently, right in the good growing temperatures for this species and i let it enjoy the fresh, humid air(its been raining).

A Paphiopedilum callosum that arrived alongside with it, is starting to show some fresh damage on it, something like mesophyll collapse as well. Maybe from the dryness during the trip or maybe the parcel got exposed to heat during transit? No idea


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 23, 2015)

The very beginning posts, anytime you see suspicious browning like that, it is best to trim off the affected leaf and keep a very close eye.
I think I see some mealy bugs although it is not clear. Perhaps a little piece of perlite or calcium deposit dried up on the leaf?

Regarding the new purchase, I am very picky and do not accept anything with marks and this seems to my preference, is shocking. lol
I have not seen this kind of things happen even in the over 90 summer days in my dry apartment.
Strange things can happen in the dark box during the shipping. 
I would still trim that leaf (hopefully just one leaf?) and see if any more browning occurs.

Those little bush snails are such a pain for me as well, and many pots come loaded with them.
I think repotting is a great way of instantly getting rid of majority of the population. You will eventually see them again because tiny babies and eggs might be stuck on the root hair and other little bits of old mix that are stuck on the roots.

I have not tried any chemicals for bush snails, but I either repot, hand pick them out every night until I see none (I know this is tedious but works quite a bit). I also find drowning them works. You can soak the pot over night. This won't hurt the plants but snails will either crawl out or die inside the pots. Of course, some will survive, but I have had great success getting rid of them almost completely this way.

Regarding mail order, always contact the seller about the conditions of the plants. I have bought many via mail order although I do not like that because I prefer to buy in person after examining the plants myself very closely.

I have only had a couple of problems.
Trust me, don't keep any plants that came with browning. All the explanations are not exact diagnosis of what's really going on. 
Most likely you are just getting sick plants and you will get more sick plants because of it eventually. Why not start fresh and clean? Things can only go wrong. Starting with clean and healthy plants and keeping them that way is easier and headache free. 

Oh, and last, virus, just because there are no symptoms on the newer leaves does not mean anything. So there.


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## Kostas (Sep 23, 2015)

Thank you very much for your extensive reply, i truly appreciate it that you took the time to see my post through and reply 

None of the plants have mealy bugs(for my original one i am sure, the other you never know till some days after) but there do are a few salt crystals from guttation and calcium deposits as well as soil and packing material remnants on the leafs which could appear like tiny progeny of mealy bugs.

I understand what you mean. I generally don't like marked leafs on orchids or any plant that holds the leafs for quite a while but its ''acceptable'' to me given that misfortunes can happen to any plant even under the best care. And even under our care. Getting a plant in awful condition in the mail is something that definitely happens unfortunately. Most orchid nurseries pack very well and plants arrive in tip top shape. But both P. kovackii arrived at awful condition, the first with Erwinia, from which it recovered/is recovering and the second the way you see it....

If you check thoroughly through the photos, there are numerous yellow and dying leafs which from my experience so far, i think are beyond repair and will eventually die soon. We are looking at least for 3 leafs gone and some scale like leafs. 

But from what i just saw, we may have not seen the worst of its damages still....Here are some pictures taken just now:
























Watersoaked areas have appeared on many leafs right out of the blue. At least i didn't remember seeing them before, maybe due to the dehydration of the plant. 

Something else i saw is that the tissue of some good leafs is whitened close to the petiole junction. I thought this happens when a leaf is about to die and not on healthy ones, so i didn't like seeing it on the 3rd newest leaf




Is it senescence related here or declaration stemming from a deficiency/light deprivation, whatever?

The only good thing is that its leafs have perked up considerably and that its guttating all over now. I think it grew some as well.


Thank you very much for the tips on the snails. I have been hand picking them at night too but they are not always in visible spots. Some more ''jungly'' pots i have are difficult to hand pick too and the bark wants to float when i try soaking. I tried the beer lures one but no snail got caught. I will try looking for some natural enemies like certain nematodes which parasitise and kill them fast. I know this works wonders with slugs but i am not sure about the normal snails. I will ask and probably try them anyway as its easy and non-toxic for us and the plants.

Buying in person is not an option for me here as there are no orchid nurseries in Greece for species orchids, so everything i want, i have to mail order. I usually buy from nurseries i know well and i know the plants arrive in tip top shape and it never ceases to amaze me how well they pack even brittle inflorescences. But even from those nurseries, i have gotten plants that arrived with an Erwinia outbreak or had all roots dead rotten/dead. So it happens even in the best families as we say. The seller of my kovachii is very well reputed in this forum. I have sent him the above photos i posted to see.

I pretty much have no alternative but to keep any plants that arrive in whatever condition cause even a half dead one is better than none of a certain species i want to grow. And i manage to slowly nurse them back to health. Its certainly annoying and gets me out of my way to save them but most sellers are definitely not happy to replace plants no matter how they arrive. I don't blame them and don't push for that as they did sent a plant, as agreed. The transport took a beating on it which can't be attributed in a definite way to anyone, though a packing fitting the plant's humidity and water requirements *may* have helped it arrive in better shape. One never knows how a replacement will arrive either.
If i show you how my official palm imports from Florida frequently look like on arrival, you would cry... i know i do when i see them. Worse than old lettuce on a market shelf and way crispier... All these need a huge amount of TLC to bring back to life basically and many months or a few years of patience till they can look like something again. But you can't tell the seller much either, cause its either order and suck it up, or you can't order again... I still order...And i definitely hate everything about how the plants arrive but at least i can get to grow some of the species i like that are not source-able in Europe.

If you think there is something i can do in this particular case, i would love to hear it. I don't like flaming people and i am usually reluctant to demand something that would make me an unwanted buyer. I don't like excluding myself from useful sources because a plant arrived in bad shape. Still i hate it when it goes so wrong

What do you mean with browning, the brown marks on the live leaf? Here is a fresh photo




How can i exclude the possibility of virus? It doesn't seem viral to me, the pattern doesn't appear right but it would be much better to know for sure. 

I never use runners on my orchids nor cut any green/live tissue, plus i don't expose any of the orchids to the water of another orchid, so chance of virus transmission should be very low in my collection. I always keep these standards and new plants are quarantined away from others than can share pathogens or pests.

Thank you very much again for your help


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## SlipperFan (Sep 23, 2015)

It doesn't look like erwinia to me, or virus. Could it be fungal?


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## Kostas (Sep 24, 2015)

You mean the last picture with the brown marks? Would be great if virus can be excluded from a possibility

As for the water soaked spots, I also don't think this second plant has Erwinia but rather something else, possibly less aggressive. The seller told me that he has seen this when he imported the plants from Peruflora 2 years ago. Some leaf parts were lost but it didn't kill the plants. Lets see how it goes


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## Kostas (Sep 24, 2015)

The plant has resumed fast growth now and is growing multiple cm of new leaf per day. It's also guttating. 
The yellowed leafs are drying and not getting infected. I hope it's on its way to recovery now and whatever damage it got, is mostly finished and not progressing much

Any insight as to what caused the watersoaked areas to suddenly appear? What could the brown spotting be from? It was great to have confirmation from Erythrone that the brown patterning seems like mesophyll collapse and not virus. Any more info on cause, why probably happened and how to prevent it, would be awesome 

Thank you very much in advance


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## gonewild (Sep 24, 2015)

Kostas said:


> The plant has resumed fast growth now and is growing multiple cm of new leaf per day. It's also guttating.
> The yellowed leafs are drying and not getting infected. I hope it's on its way to recovery now and whatever damage it got, is mostly finished and not progressing much
> 
> Any insight as to what caused the watersoaked areas to suddenly appear? What could the brown spotting be from? It was great to have confirmation from Erythrone that the brown patterning seems like mesophyll collapse and not virus. Any more info on cause, why probably happened and how to prevent it, would be awesome
> ...



The water soaked areas could be from ruptured cell walls caused by extreme water stress/pressure differential.

I dont think the brown is virus either, if it were the spots would probably be discolored yellow and not drying tissue.


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## Kostas (Sep 25, 2015)

Thank you very much Lance, I appreciate your insight a lot


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## Bjorn (Sep 26, 2015)

The oedema is normally not a decease, more a cultural thing. Mostly it disappear after a while. So with whitening of leaves, sometimes my phrags show this behaviour, likely to be an intermittent deficiency. Might have to do with insufficiently developed roots when growt flush commences?


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## Kostas (Sep 26, 2015)

Thank you very much for your reply Bjorn, i appreciate it! Great to hear the translucent/watersoaked appearing areas on the leafs are not caused by a pathogen and that they disappear after a while! I was actually searching today for some of the ones i photographed and couldn't find them on the leafs, which was a relief. I did find some but many i didn't. What seems to causes it from your experience?

Good to know the whitening isn't associated with a dying leaf only but with a deficiency. The plant appears well rooted but i have not repotted it and can only guess on its roots from what i see. 

Its doing quite well now and growing fast with daily watering, so hopefully it will get beautiful again in a few months and maybe i see a flower within a year


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## Kostas (Sep 26, 2015)

Shall I removed the 2 oldest leafs of the left growth or wait them out to dry more? I don't like the succulent/wet browning that is starting to develop at their still live leaf bases. Both leafs are dead and have dried nicely, and i am waiting them to fully dry before removal for no open wounds and nutrient relocation. But I think this browning is too close to the base now and may spread before they dry. Would you leave or remove now? I also don't like the wet brown marks seen on the edge of the third oldest leaf. That leaf is also slowly dying and drying but the lower half of it is still green(the plant was severly water stressed from the transport and this leaf was apparently much affected too, arriving half yellow, so i think it will dehisce soon). I am thinking of waiting that out but maybe remove the 2 oldest. I think it shouldn't compromise the structure of the plant but I don't like leaving them thin at the base, so let me know what you think

The oldest scale leaf of the right growth is now fully dry and will remove it today.


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## gonewild (Sep 26, 2015)

This is what I would do...

Cut the brown leaves off about 1 inch above the base.
The split apart lengthwise the remaining leave stubs down to the base, but dont pull them off.

That will allow air to get in around the base of the green leaves and still not create any wound in he other leaves. Then later after the stubs are all dried up remove the.


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## Kostas (Sep 27, 2015)

Thank you Lance!

I removed the oldest leaf as the wet looking browning was very close to the base(does this damage/wound the stem or do the leafs pull off where they would naturally dehisce if left to dry, thus not wounding the trunk or taking with them stem tissues they shouldn't?)

The other leafs are still ok at the base, so I am leaving be for now


Any idea what these surface yellow marks are from? They seem like spider mites but not quite. Maybe dried up plant excrements(from when that leaf was still developing)?


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## gonewild (Sep 27, 2015)

Kostas said:


> Thank you Lance!
> 
> I removed the oldest leaf as the wet looking browning was very close to the base(does this damage/wound the stem or do the leafs pull off where they would naturally dehisce if left to dry, thus not wounding the trunk or taking with them stem tissues they shouldn't?)



When you remove a leaf before it is ready to go, sometimes it comes clean at the normal dehisce point and sometimes it doesn't. When it doesn't it can cause some damage to the remaining leaf bases. On a healthy plant that damage is no problem but if you suspect there might be some pathogen present it's safest to do as I described above. 
Sometimes if there is a potential rot problem it is good to split the leaf stub base that is below the dehisce point to let air in to help dry it up (sometimes).



> The other leafs are still ok at the base, so I am leaving be for now



Give it some time.



> Any idea what these surface yellow marks are from? They seem like spider mites but not quite. Maybe dried up plant excrements(from when that leaf was still developing)?



The yellow marks look like they might be a stain from when that point of the leaf was emerging from the base as the leaf grew. Notice how the pattern is basically the same shape on each side of the midrib. That indicates the stain happened when the leaf was still folded and the color happened at the point when the tender underside of the leaf was in contact to the older leaf below, air, and surface water.


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## Kostas (Sep 27, 2015)

How can it damage the remaining leaf bases? I can see how it could cause some stem damage or scarring but don't know how it could damage the leafs above it.
I think the ones i have removed so far have come relatively clean but the leaf bases on this kovachii are very fibrous and the fibres don't break, so i left the ones that wouldn't break in order not to cause any damage. My other kovachii has leaf bases without such strong fibres

I have split the leaf base of the other brown leaf that had some slight rot towards the base but haven't removed it. Hope it fully dries soon and can be removed. One more dying leaf left and i think i am done with the drought stress damaged leafs. Its growing well, so i look forward to seeing it fully replace its canopy and be beautiful 

Yes, i noticed the identical shape and thought exactly the same. So i guess its nothing to worry about.


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## gonewild (Sep 27, 2015)

Kostas said:


> How can it damage the remaining leaf bases? I can see how it could cause some stem damage or scarring but don't know how it could damage the leafs above it.
> I think the ones i have removed so far have come relatively clean but the leaf bases on this kovachii are very fibrous and the fibres don't break, so i left the ones that wouldn't break in order not to cause any damage. My other kovachii has leaf bases without such strong fibres



It's actually the tearing fibers that can peel away tissue past the base of the leaf if you keep pulling and they don't break. That tearing of the lower tissue is what I meant y damage to the base of other leaves.


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## Kostas (Sep 27, 2015)

I get what you mean now. I have always been wary not to pull on fibres that don't break clean easily as i grow palms and i have seen what pulling on them can do by photos from other growers. That can happen with both green and brown leafs if they are not ready. I go easy on them...


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## Kostas (Sep 28, 2015)

Looks like it's one more leaf to go and it's done with the drought damage from the shipping












Fortunately they are growing well and fast.

Why are the motherplants so much stunted in kovachii compared to their pups? I always see the original motherplant grown from seed to be punny/with strange and slower growth habits compared to the pups. Both the pup and the motherplant are growing for me but the pup is faster so far


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## gonewild (Sep 28, 2015)

Kostas said:


> Why are the motherplants so much stunted in kovachii compared to their pups? I always see the original motherplant grown from seed to be punny/with strange and slower growth habits compared to the pups. Both the pup and the motherplant are growing for me but the pup is faster so far



Because the pups have more support as the plant gets older so each growth can be bigger aand stronger than the previous...until the plant reaches maturity.
Also kovachii does not like to keep older growths, they usually fade away as the new growths take over.


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## Kostas (Sep 28, 2015)

So a big older growth can waste away without ever flowering, just because it grew a pup? The older growth of this one keeps growing, just slower. Is it bound to stop growth and waste away or should it eventually flower?


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## gonewild (Sep 28, 2015)

Kostas said:


> So a big older growth can waste away without ever flowering, just because it grew a pup? The older growth of this one keeps growing, just slower. Is it bound to stop growth and waste away or should it eventually flower?



Probably wont flower, usually the spike forms just as the growth is finished growing leaves. The growths have to meet a certain time frame of age to reach sexual maturity to flower. Just because a growth is big enough to flower does not mean it is old enough. Let me clarify that... the plant as a whole has to reach a certain age to mature, not each individual growth. The plant may need to be 4 years old to bloom but no single growth on the plant has been there for 4 years, but the base/rhizome has been.


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## Kostas (Sep 28, 2015)

I understand. I think this one is both old enough and big enough to flower within 1 year. If the old growth won't flower, then what will it do? Just stop growing and go leafless eventually?


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## gonewild (Sep 28, 2015)

Kostas said:


> I understand. I think this one is both old enough and big enough to flower within 1 year. If the old growth won't flower, then what will it do? Just stop growing and go leafless eventually?



The old growth will produce and support the new growth. When well grown the growths on a near mature kovachii can produce as many as 5 new growths! Suddenly the plant can get big. But as you suspect the old growth you have now will begin to loose its leaves and disappear. But that just makes room for the new growths to occupy the space. The old growth built the foundation for the mature plant. So after the new growth starts to get some size don't panic when you see the old growth start to "die". It's not dying, it's just shedding much like little limbs do on a tree trunk as the tree grows.


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## Kostas (Sep 28, 2015)

Thank you Lance! That helps a lot to know


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