# The Case of the Mysterious Muncher



## Gcroz (Dec 4, 2011)

Over the course of the last week, I have had three buds mysteriously disappear from my paphs. I present to you the facts, as I know them, and ask for ideas on who/what could be the culprit.

The facts:

1. Paph. Memoria Larry Heuer with two "spikes", one spike intact. The second spike, with double bud, came up missing the buds one morning. Spike looked like it had been snipped.

2. 2 days later, after Larry Heuer incident, a Paph. malipoense shows up missing it's bud. Spike looks like it has been snipped.

3. Yesterday, a Paph. venustum shows up missing it's bud. Spike looks like it has been snipped. This plant, however, is directly in front of a venustum with 2 spikes, both intact.

4. No traces of the missing buds can be found on the bench or the floor.

5. Within the past week, we have not disturbed the table since the parvi's are resting and the others were not scheduled for water.


My current suspect is an errant grasshopper that I have not been able to locate.

Does anyone have any suggestions? Should I post pictures to help solve the case?


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## Marc (Dec 4, 2011)

I don't think that it are snales because they don't remove complete buds.

Maybe a hungry mouse?


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## Gcroz (Dec 4, 2011)

Marc said:


> I don't think that it are snales because they don't remove complete buds.
> 
> Maybe a hungry mouse?



No snails or slugs have been spotted in the vicinity, nor has their been any other damages attributable to them found.

However, a mouse maybe. But why would it be so selective? Wouldn't it eat as many buds as it could find?


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## Marc (Dec 4, 2011)

Gcroz said:


> No snails or slugs have been spotted in the vicinity, nor has their been any other damages attributable to them found.
> 
> However, a mouse maybe. But why would it be so selective? Wouldn't it eat as many buds as it could find?



Not sure, just to be sure set a few mousetraps.

Some chees on it covered with some extra peanutbutter should do the trick. ( If it's a mouse of course. )


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## Shiva (Dec 4, 2011)

Mice are not so smart, or maybe so hungry to eat them all at once. They can wait for the rest of the vegetables. :evil:

Set a couple of mousetraps with cheese or peanut butter. Now they should have a complete meal... and pay for it.


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## likespaphs (Dec 4, 2011)

a mouse sounds reasonable to me but also maybe a caterpillar?
do you visit the greenhouse at night? if so and it's a caterpillar, it may be a night feeder


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## Erythrone (Dec 4, 2011)

When I see those damages a greenhouse or in my growing room in the basement, it was always Mickey Mouse or some of its cousins (rats, voles, squirrels, etc.).


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## John M (Dec 4, 2011)

I get that now and then in my greenhouse. It'a always a field mouse. I have the little deer mice in there all year 'round; but, the field mice only come inside in the fall. Each fall, this year included, I always buy about 30 mouse traps and set them out. If I wait, eventually I'll begin to notice whole buds or stems of buds going missing; because as the field mice come inside, they begin building their nests. The deer mice don't do this. They take a nibble here and there, if at all. They are not a problem. However, a single field mouse can cause hundreds of dollars worth of damage in just a single night. They cut the buds, stems and flowers off and haul them away to use as nesting material. These guys also love the grass-like leaves of the more miniature Phrags and they will completely defoliate a plant in just one night.

Luckily, they are not around here in large numbers. When I see the damage, I set out the mouse traps and after I catch just one field mouse, the damage stops. These mice are fairly large, as mice go and they have a short tail. They look a bit like a miniature gopher.


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## jtrmd (Dec 4, 2011)

I have the same problem every once in awhile.Both times it has happened,I put out a trap when I notice one of the little bastards are chewing on something,and get it witin 48hrs.


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## Erythrone (Dec 4, 2011)

John M said:


> I get that now and then in my greenhouse. It'a always a field mouse. I have the little deer mice in there all year 'round; but, the field mice only come inside in the fall. Each fall, this year included, I always buy about 30 mouse traps and set them out. If I wait, eventually I'll begin to notice whole buds or stems of buds going missing; because as the field mice come inside, they begin building their nests. The deer mice don't do this. They take a nibble here and there, if at all. They are not a problem. However, a single field mouse can cause hundreds of dollars worth of damage in just a single night. They cut the buds, stems and flowers off and haul them away to use as nesting material. These guys also love the grass-like leaves of the more miniature Phrags and they will completely defoliate a plant in just one night.
> 
> Luckily, they are not around here in large numbers. When I see the damage, I set out the mouse traps and after I catch just one field mouse, the damage stops. These mice are fairly large, as mice go and they have a short tail. They look a bit like a miniature gopher.



Where I live now the problem is always from deer mice. That is the commonest species here. We live near forest. They really loved buds when they were living in my growing room.

I do like John M.... I buy several traps every year (and I often reuse the old ones....). And I bought a lot of rodenticide... And we bought new screens last year at high cost. 

But the biggest problem is now in the kitchen and in the living room not in the growing room. 

John, when you talk about fiel mouse, are you talking about the meadow vole? Or a long tail jumping meadow mouce? I am familiar with english names of rodents.


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## cnycharles (Dec 4, 2011)

glen decker was telling us today that mice come into his production greenhouses and either eat sideways into certain buds going after the pollen, or remove whole buds or spikes. like others have said, any of the small critters could be responsible


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## rob (Dec 4, 2011)

Ive lost over 50 budded paphs do to mice in the last three weeks, 17 mice caught so far. The worst part is from Norito and ate 2 of the first Rex vandeldens that spiked after 5 years of growing. Oh the joy of growing!
Rob


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## rob (Dec 4, 2011)

Sorry for the typo, the Norito plants were Francisco baptista first bloom


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## Gcroz (Dec 4, 2011)

Well, I never would have thought mice would be an issue. But I have my marching orders. Off to the hardware store to get some traps.


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## NYEric (Dec 4, 2011)

Varmits! :fight:


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Dec 4, 2011)

Sounds like mice. I also have deer mice- white footed mice, right here in NYC. 90% of the mice I've trapped in my house were white footed mice...so much for my cats. (Just as well...one of them eats them if she catches one...I do not like coming downstairs to find mouse heads in my dining room.) While they're really cute, the nasty buggers can carry hantavirus.


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## chrismende (Dec 5, 2011)

Mice or other rodents. I had a couple instances of this early in my new/old greenhouse. I put out lots of bait stations, cubes of bait, and three sonic deterrent gizmos. The problem stopped! The bait is no longer out, just the sonic gizmos are still plugged in. If I have the problem again, more bait will go out on the benches.


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## John M (Dec 6, 2011)

Erythrone said:


> John, when you talk about fiel mouse, are you talking about the meadow vole? Or a long tail jumping meadow mouce? I am familiar with english names of rodents.


 I just googled "Field Mouse and found that what I'm calling a "Field Mouse" is what you call a "Meadow Vole". Very destructive critters in the greenhouse.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Dec 6, 2011)

Probably the same. Try "Peromyscus" in your search.


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## bullsie (Dec 7, 2011)

Also, if available, set out a few of the sticky traps for mice. Or low hung sticky fly traps. Might help if there are beetles about (can they do a number on plants, just like someone snipped off - and those monsters can be selective). Whether the sticky trap catches a mouse/mice or not, they tend to catch other 'critters' that lurk in the dark. Would give you an idea what is out with the orchids when your not.


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## bullsie (Dec 7, 2011)

Just read your location and being this time of year, yep, most definitely mice!


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## FlowerFaerie (Dec 7, 2011)

Shiva said:


> Set a couple of mousetraps with cheese or peanut butter. Now they should have a complete meal... and pay for it.



That would trap me too - cheese & peanut butter is a very nice combination. :drool:


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## John M (Jan 4, 2012)

John M said:


> I just googled "Field Mouse and found that what I'm calling a "Field Mouse" is what you call a "Meadow Vole". Very destructive critters in the greenhouse.



Well, it was my turn yesterday. I thought I'd managed to get through the fall without any mouse damage; but, as soon as I thought that....BAM! A Phrag. ecuadorense that I've been coaxing back to health suddenly had a leaf chewed off. The plant was only a single growth and only had about 5 leaves. I noticed that the leaf had been chewed off while I was watering on Monday......by the time I finished watering, I forgot about the plant and didn't set out any fresh traps. I spent the day in the house and finally remembered about the chewed plant mid evening. So, I went down to the greenhouse to set out some traps in the area where the plant was. TOO LATE! The mouse had come back already and chewed off the whole growth at the pot! I was so-ooooo angry! If only I hadn't forgotten about it for a few hours..... I set out 6 traps all around the area where the plant was. Today, I found one dead Field Mouse in one trap and the other traps had not been touched. I expected it to be a Field Mouse. The damage was so typical of what they do. Those ones don't take a nibble here and there, they chop down whole plants, especially anything with long, narrow, grass-like leaves. They love to destroy whole Phrags by cutting off virtually every leaf and hauling them away to build a nest.

My poor Phrag might die now; but, maybe not. The roots are still there and if there's enough rhizome, I might be lucky that it sends up a survival growth....if there is an untouched, dormant eye. Finger's crossed!


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Jan 4, 2012)

John, your not alone. I noticed a few spikes that were partially or totally gone. At first I blamed myself for being careless. I even thought, possible my lovely wife did it while trimming dead leaves, but as we all know it's those darn mice. I was also watering the greenhouse a couple of weeks ago and saw one of the mice. I didn't know what to do, so sprayed the water at it. Like that will do anything other then give him a cold bath. I also set out traps and poison. The next day in the same area I found one mouse in the trap. I thought I had it under control but noticed the poison missing. I haven't seen any more mice or any more damage (but did lose about 6 spikes) since the start. My question is, if one bite of the poison kills them, then where does all the poison disappear too?


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## jtrmd (Jan 4, 2012)

I say a mouse,and I found that cheese curls on the trap will get them quickly every time.


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## Gcroz (Jan 4, 2012)

Well, since you all figured it out, I have killed 5 mice in the greenhouse. Unfortunately, there is at least one mouse, probably more, which routinely gets the bait off the mouse trap without springing the mechanism. Now it's become all out vendetta in the greenhouse!


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## cnycharles (Jan 5, 2012)

friend in orchid club had mysterious invaders chopping things off in his small greenhouse, and couldn't catch anything. he finally got some of those industrial strength sticky traps, and a few day later there were some reddish-brown hairs where a chipmunk had gotten partially stuck and managed to dislodge itself. it would sit in the aisle and watch mike as he was repotting plants at his bench. I think finally someone told him to remove all clutter against the outside of the greenhouse and it didn't come around after that

I had a very nice polystachya tayloriana that was quickly turning itself into a nice specimen, that I had placed on a deck railing years ago. one day, half of the plant was gone and a big hole in the media on one side of the pot; a squirrel had dug/chewed into the pot, and the plant was so insulted it curled up and died  :fight: :sob:


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## Shiva (Jan 5, 2012)

Gcroz said:


> Well, since you all figured it out, I have killed 5 mice in the greenhouse. Unfortunately, there is at least one mouse, probably more, which routinely gets the bait off the mouse trap without springing the mechanism. Now it's become all out vendetta in the greenhouse!



Put the trap on a smooth plate of glass or ceramic. Their little feet won't have any grip when trying to move out. Works every time. :evil:


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Jan 5, 2012)

I don't know if I should be happy or sad. Caught another mouse this morning in a spring trap. This summer, I also had a chipmunk invade the greenhouse. I started noticing pots tore up and on their side. Especially, 2 inch seedlings. Lost a number of plants before I saw the little guy. I put out a small have a heart trap that I picked up at one of the big box stores. Laid a trail of nuts into it and had the little guy within 24 hours. I kept the trap set for a few more weeks but never got another one.


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## NYEric (Jan 5, 2012)

One good thing about having cats!


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## koshki (Jan 5, 2012)

NYEric said:


> One good thing about having cats!



Without permission (  ) my daughter came home with a fancy rat as a pet. She hid him in her room in a small cage for several days, until she felt sorry for it and asked me to get a larger cage for the varmint.

I'm such a softy, I couldn't toss the critter out in the lake; instead I went to the pet store a dropped $100 on cage, food and toys for that goofy animal.

Ah, you ask, but what about my three cats? Well, those guys are ALL afraid of that goofy rat. They will occasionally sit and watch it in his cage, but if he is roaming around on the floor, they scoot. 

So, I'm not convinced my cats would solve my rat problem!


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## Marc (Jan 5, 2012)

If you want something to take care of rats I can recomend a Dachshund or Dachshund Jack Russel crossbreed. My parents have two of them and the oldest of them has proven to be an excellent rat killer. Two times in a week or so it managed to kill a rat in the following way.

The oldest one searching like crazy through the garden and then standing still and barking at the door of the big shed in my parents backyard. I go there and as I open the door he charges in and before I even have fully openend I hear a loud squeeeek and as I turn the light on I see a rat on the floor twitching with a broken back. The dog sniffs the rat one more and looks at me then walks away.


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## Shiva (Jan 5, 2012)

Marc said:


> If you want something to take care of rats I can recomend a Dachshund or Dachshund Jack Russel crossbreed.



OK! Question from a cat person. What do you do with the dog once all the rats are dead? :evil:


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## koshki (Jan 5, 2012)

Marc said:


> If you want something to take care of rats I can recomend a Dachshund...



I may have to borrow my sister in law's dog! 

We had a long haired dachshund when I was growing up, but I can't imagine she would have killed anything. Sweetest dog I ever knew...Mutzi.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jan 5, 2012)

My wife's cousin breeds wire haired dachsunds.....they're really cute.


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## Marc (Jan 6, 2012)

Shiva said:


> OK! Question from a cat person. What do you do with the dog once all the rats are dead? :evil:



Can't help you with that, I'm a dog person and as a bonus I'm also allergic to cat ( or cat hair ) so I have no answer to your question.


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## goldenrose (Jan 6, 2012)

My dogs prefer bigger game, I'm not a cat person but refrained from chasing off the stray cat, which is now 2 but little rodents have disappeared!


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## Justin (Jan 6, 2012)

Bob in Albany said:


> John, your not alone. I noticed a few spikes that were partially or totally gone. At first I blamed myself for being careless. I even thought, possible my lovely wife did it while trimming dead leaves, but as we all know it's those darn mice. I was also watering the greenhouse a couple of weeks ago and saw one of the mice. I didn't know what to do, so sprayed the water at it. Like that will do anything other then give him a cold bath. I also set out traps and poison. The next day in the same area I found one mouse in the trap. I thought I had it under control but noticed the poison missing. I haven't seen any more mice or any more damage (but did lose about 6 spikes) since the start. My question is, if one bite of the poison kills them, then where does all the poison disappear too?



They can transport the poison back to their nests. With the common household mouse poison they don't die immediately.

We've had lots of trouble with mice where we live, and traps were largely ineffectual. 

I finally started putting out poison. Problem solved.


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## koshki (Jan 6, 2012)

I was thinking about this thread today, as I was watching _The Green Mile_!


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## biothanasis (Jan 7, 2012)

Be careful with poisons, as rodents in general get immune over the time...


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## Gcroz (Jan 16, 2012)

Ok, so today there were no missing buds. However, all the moss I attached to a cork plank for a Max. sophronitis was eaten away. I have "dispatched" about 6 mice in the greenhouse, and now must do away with more. Man, what a pain! 

6 more trap are down as I type...


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## John M (Jan 17, 2012)

Shiva said:


> OK! Question from a cat person. What do you do with the dog once all the rats are dead? :evil:



Easy! You never get rid of the dog because "all the rats" are NEVER dead!

Unfortunately, when you have a greenhouse, rodent control is a non-stop activity. It's as integral to good growing as watering your plants.


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Jan 17, 2012)

Remember, it's good to move those traps around every now and then.


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## Gcroz (Jan 17, 2012)

You know, I'd had never been a problem before. Even when i worked at a orchid nursery in Virginia, never had an issue with mice. Of course, in Virginia we had a few resident Blacksnakes and Rat snakes, perhaps they kept the mice and rat populations in check!


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Jan 17, 2012)

Gcroz, don't feel bad. You aren't the only one. I started losing spikes and set out some poison and traps. In the last couple of weeks I caught 5 or 6 in the traps and the poison is being eaten. I think I've gotten them but won't stop putting out poison or traps. My problem is I have to collect all the poison and traps before doing my weekly watering and then have to re put them all back out. What a pain. But worth it!!


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## Gcroz (Jan 17, 2012)

Oh I don't feel bad... at least not anymore. Begining to feel like the Terminator with my current death count! Also, gives me a good excuse to justify that pet snake I've always wanted!:evil:


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## John M (Jan 21, 2012)

Bob in Albany said:


> Gcroz, don't feel bad. You aren't the only one. I started losing spikes and set out some poison and traps. In the last couple of weeks I caught 5 or 6 in the traps and the poison is being eaten. I think I've gotten them but won't stop putting out poison or traps. My problem is I have to collect all the poison and traps before doing my weekly watering and then have to re put them all back out. What a pain. But worth it!!



I buy mouse traps on sale at $1.99 for a pack of two. Then, I use sunflower seeds in the shell as bait, not cheese or peanut butter or anything else that will spoil quickly in the high moisture environment of the greenhouse. Once I set out the traps, I don't collect them before watering. I water one bench each day and spray the entire rest of the greenhouse with a coarse spray every day there is sun and some days that there is no sun. The seeds stay attractive to the mice for up to about 8 weeks. I buy the (not for human consumption grade), seeds at the bulk food store. They carry a lot of wild bird seeds and the unsalted, raw, sunflower seeds in the shell is one of the items that they have. So, in a greenhouse that is 1440 sq ft, it's still pretty cheap each year. I spend about $30 to $40 a year on new traps and the seeds are a couple bucks for enough to set traps for many years. Eventually, the traps begin to rot and rust and they must be replaced; but, by then, it's warmer and I don't have trouble with mice in the warmer weather. They don't mind staying outside when it's warm. But, each fall, they start to seek the warmth of the greenhouse. I end up with a very disporportionatly high population relative to the square footage inside the greenhouse. They are all looking for food and nesting material. That's when the spikes and buds and new growths begin to disappear.


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