# Native Orchids



## NYEric (Feb 1, 2012)

As you may have seen, I've been buying different types of live moss. Besides live sphagnum to use as orchid media I've made 2 trays for different types and I want to sow some live native orchid seeds in the trays. 

The vendor I got the seeds from posted this in his auction:
_"With each order of seeds I will include a small bag of soil (2x3 ziplock) from my most productive orchid patch. The soil is a cleaned and sifted humus that should contain all the micro-organisms necessary to germinate the seeds and feed the young plants, it can be used by itself or as an innoculant for the medium of your choice."_ 
What I'm wondering is, what is the best method for getting the micro-organisms into the moss for the seeds to take up and develope a symbiotic relationship? I am thinking of soaking the soil samples in water for an hour and then spraying on the moss. Any opinions?


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## Shiva (Feb 2, 2012)

Should work if the sprayer doesn't clog.


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## labskaus (Feb 2, 2012)

Microbes are living organisms, and as such, they are adopted to a certain way of live. Live in a pot is not what most of them are suited for, and live in moss, with its antimicrobial activity, even less. What you'll get to grow will be the rats among the microbes, and you'll be quite lucky if you find a nurse for your seed among the rats.
I'm wondering if your vendor ever has gotten good orchid germination in a pot by his method, or if he was just pulling your leg.

Good luck, Eric. I'm not very optimistic, but I wish it works.


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## NYEric (Feb 2, 2012)

In nature the seeds must go thru the moss to reach the soil so the method should be similar. I'm also thinking about sending 1/3 packs of seeds to a flasking lab. This is a wild ass reach for me!


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## tocarmar (Feb 3, 2012)

your best bet would be to dig some compost from under some trees. I know you live in the concrete jungle!!! If you can get to a good wooded area in central park, or someones yard. You would have a better chance to get the micro-organisms that you need as they grow in most compost.


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## NYEric (Feb 3, 2012)

In the moss beds, under the moss I have a peat moss based soil mix. I'm hoping the microbes will wash down and take/thrive in this. Also, as the orchid seeds I have came from a type of orchid I saw growing very wet, I'm making a moss bed in a circulating water tray, w/ very little soil.


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## Stone (Feb 5, 2012)

How will the locals feel about seeing a strange man suspiciously digging around under a bush and carrying a plastic bag under a trenchcoat in Central Park? Or is that a common sight there. :rollhappy:


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## goldenrose (Feb 9, 2012)

:rollhappy::rollhappy::rollhappy: :clap:


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## Rick (Feb 9, 2012)

I think you may do pretty good Eric.

Orchid seed is so fine that it will easily wash throught the moss.

The commercial mychorrizal innoculants and benificial bacterial supplements sold by companies like Worms's Way have pretty long shelf life, so I wouldn't be surprised if a bag of local dirt from a productive orchid patch will innoculate soil well.

I would avoid any fertilization or nutrient supplimentation. That seems to screw up the microbial ecology more than anything else.

Since your moss is already established on dirt I would peel back the moss a bit and sprinkle some of the innoculant dirt on top of that. It's not unlikely that this innoculant dirt will be kind of peaty anyway.


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## Rick (Feb 9, 2012)

Stone said:


> How will the locals feel about seeing a strange man suspiciously digging around under a bush and carrying a plastic bag under a trenchcoat in Central Park? Or is that a common sight there. :rollhappy:



A college prof told me about a study they did on centipedes in central park, trying to study copulation mechanisms. So they ran around at night with red lights on, with a can of liquid nitrogen. Poking around the bushes they would find mating centipedes and pour the nitrogen on them to freeze them incopulato. Of course this would produce a pretty big cloud of smoke/condensation, which looked extra weird with the red lights.

So I don't think a guy in a trenchcoat scooping up dirt is going to compete!!


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## Stone (Feb 9, 2012)

Yes, after all, thats where all extraterrestrials end up touching down when they visit.--or Washington.


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## Rick (Feb 9, 2012)

Stone said:


> Yes, after all, thats where all extraterrestrials end up touching down when they visit.--or Washington.



Was that MIB??


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## Leo Schordje (Feb 10, 2012)

Eric, add to your moss trays several roots, taken from several terrestrial orchids - Paphs, maybe a Phaius - Anectochilus - any of the terrestrial or semi-terrestrial orchids you have. Cut a healthy live root or two off, they can serve then as innoculum for your moss where you plan to plant the seed. Many adult plants will carry one or another symbiotic species. The roots will die after a few weeks, but while they are fresh they can supply fungi. 

Most rhododendron and azalea species and hybrids have endo-mycorhizal fungi - it is possible some of the species are the same fungi the orchids can use. So dig a few rhododendron roots up from your garden or Central Park. :evil: then you can really look like some kind of crazy. 

Pines, especially American White Pines have strong associations with a dozen or more ecto-mycorrhizal species of fungi. They are often the dominant tree in eastern US forests that are Cyp pubescens habitat. Dig around a white pine and harvest some of the white mycelial masses, you can try and use that too. A mix of several sources of innoculum would probably have a better chance of success than using only one source of innoculum. Of course it will be harder to figure out which one did the trick, but your end goal is germinating the orchid seed, rather than figuring out just which fungi is the ideal "fun guy to be with". 

I have read studies that showed that a single mycorrhizal colony in the soil can infect, or be hosted by more than one tree and by trees of more than one species. One study in Colorado, showed that a radio isotope doped sugar, injected into a ponderosa pine at 10 feet above ground level traveled within one hour, some 100 feet away, the radio isotope sugar was detected in an aspen. The study continued, it was demonstrated by other techniques that one tree could supply water to its tree neighbors, even if the neighbors were of several different species - the recipients got the water through their shared mycorrhizae colony. (shades of the movie Avatar, with the fungal network that connected all life, and worked like a neural network)

So it is not crazy to innocculate north american terrestrials with white pine mycorrhizae or with rhododendron mycorrhizae. Or mycorrhizae of other orchids. 

The only hazzard is the odd chance you end up with a pathogenic fungi in there too. I wouldn't let that hazzard stop the experiment. 

One more thing, several bonsai suppliers sell spore powders of known mycorrhizal fungi. My favorite source is www.fungiperfecti.com Their 'Myco-Grow is a good one, but not the only one out there. Colin Lewis also sells a different mix of fungi. These spores were selected from known tree mycorrhizae, mostly pine symbionts. But, there is some evidence that orchids use several of the species that are used by the trees also. 

Go wild,

My reference and a great read: "Mycelium Running (How Mushrooms Can Help Save the World)" by Paul Staments, 2005 Ten Speed Press, Berkley, CA.

By the way, Paul Staments is also a world authority on the taxonomy of Psilocybe mushrooms, he described several new species. For what it is worth.


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## NYEric (Feb 10, 2012)

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately "White Pine" around here is only something painted white that they sell at Gothic Furniture!


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## biothanasis (Feb 10, 2012)

Eric, you might would like to get a look at this...

http://www.sumirenomiwaku.net/ran/tanetane02.htm


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## NYEric (Feb 10, 2012)

biothanasis said:


> Eric, you might would like to get a look at this...
> 
> http://www.sumirenomiwaku.net/ran/tanetane02.htm


Er,... Yes.


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## Stone (Feb 10, 2012)

biothanasis said:


> Eric, you might would like to get a look at this...
> 
> http://www.sumirenomiwaku.net/ran/tanetane02.htm



Can somebody -anybody- explain just what the hell is going on here


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## NYEric (Feb 10, 2012)

Honestly, "no"! LOL!


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## likespaphs (Feb 11, 2012)

it's all about growing wild orchid from seed and how to encourage the mycorrhiza fungi

{thank you google translate  }
copy the website
go to:
http://translate.google.com/
then paste the website address


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## keithrs (Feb 12, 2012)

Translated.....

§ § Grow from seed wild orchids

This time, I tried to challenge the sowing of silane and white flower Mojizuri Miyama. March 2, -2008 -
Orchidaceae plant, the bud does not go out very little sowing in ordinary iodine.
Strain of orchid yuan spring is said to be that in order to put forth buds, the nutrition that you need to get a run with the help of bacteria, and until now and how many seeds based on the parental strain, bacteria run sow the seed that was to have been made to the public. Around Showa 60 (I was one of them) to many enthusiasts had spread as a "revolutionary law seedlings" using the roots of spring-run "juice bed method" also. Published in horticultural magazine that the "easy to germinate and sow the seeds of the wild orchid iodine mixed with cardboard," Mr. Kato of the virtual meeting however Shigayama 1988. Was initially remained in the part of the Kansai, has led to today, "sowing cardboard" as "law seedlings of Miracles" from circa 1996 is spread across the country.
Sowing [cardboard]
● What you need

[Cardboard box]
[] Container and sow the seeds were chopped for the extract, the usual cardboard everywhere, to have something to cut elongated partition of iodine sowing
Flatware and PVC etc. Binipotto
There is a good product to average 100 (photo has created a drainage hole in the bottom container of sashimi) [iodine]
I used a mixture of perlite to bits - small particle of sand, sand, sun Fuji Kiryu sand. Iodine is good does not choose, even in single item, such as Kanuma soil. [Pan]
Good thing is somewhat deep. To use water from the bottom pot.
May obtain a Styrofoam box, etc. Super.
Have to average 100 plastic box

[Old] Sat
The use thickness to prevent the sow, who was older than new soil mixed with the soil will get better germination rate.
Of species with better and there is a little damp sphagnum moss []
Finer sieve, rubbing the eyes of the dry sphagnum moss.
Root [] use in stable attachment of the spring orchid seeds and humidity control of iodine
To promote the orchid fungus occurs, use a good root growth.
Safe to use because of vigorous spring orchid roots of survival compared to other orchid. [Mixer]
Use to make juice of spring orchid roots.
Was used at 500 yen.
● Working sowing
Extract a ball stage)
You finished the day before sowing, such as finely cut cardboard scissors, placed in a bucket, etc., and will be immersed in water overnight. Floor sowing 2)
Arranged at intervals of 2cm in the vertical partition as cardboard to sow the seed container, put the iodine in the meantime.
Let's cut the cardboard strips in advance. Put a thin, multiply the appropriate amount of iodine to partition 3) cardboard, about the moss is no longer visible topsoil water was prepared in advance. The extract calms over the ball from the top and stage. 4 seed)
Issues a seed by dividing the sheath. Species, such as fine powder as shown in the photograph. Let the wind with care.
Seamount species Mojizuri Left:
White flowers and seed pods of silane Right:

Mix the soil seed full 5). If there is moisture in the iodine species will adhere to clean. Sowing 6)
You sow to sow evenly distributed on the floor. Stage to extract the ball into the pan 7), carefully place it on the floor sown in it. We will add the water repeatedly until the wet ball moss extract water table stage. Ranked #, but takes a few hours, and put over the water, would flow to the place because of low iodine species, let's spear to be patient. ⇒ ⇒ ★ completed sowing cardboard (^ ^) /

METHODS: Juice floor;
8 then), I would like to challenge the law Juice floor.
The finely cut spring orchid roots well washed with water. Make the juice into the roots of chopped spring orchid 9) mixer. Turn until the pieces as much as possible. On the floor, white roots were disrupted (appears) after 11) Repeat steps 4 to 6 sows cardboard, is complete the resulting juice sprinkled evenly sown prepared in 10) 3.
※ does not use cardboard juice in bed method, this time (as it is to make too much extra) was seen with hip watering is water

※ This time so far. . . (To be reported tracking to flowering) until the bud is fun for one month after
◆ As of April 1
· We have kept only indoors wrapped in a plastic bag on the floor shot in. sowing.


• The state has become nest is like a mold that grew after one month, if you take a look inside, whitish spider was crawling.
← photo on the left immediately
◆ As of May 7
-Bud came out to Purokomu rounded white.

Death clumps Mojizuri Miyama, both Shirobanashiran.
◆ June 6
· Miyamamijizuri grow to a sheet-fed while big 3 ~ 4cm

Shirobanashiran is small-even 4mm and two leaves to grow.
◆ July 7, currently
Since the degree of growth is slow, had been to neglect. . . Two-thirds of the melt from the original strain? What is missing is not Suppo (sad Yara, Yara frustrating) than today, to stop the water management waist. There is no change in the state of the June 6, also apparently stopped growing. Only 10 each, repot in a mixture of iodine and water moss moss crawling the seedling looked fine.
◆ August 15
What a good compatibility with the bowl of magic, is the growth of two-fold compared to July.

Mistake or a label attached? Feel like a sheet of Shirobanashiran've been?
You will see clearly from the familiar to the next year, let us not worry ^ ^;
Leaf seedlings of two, has been with two to five leaves in a small. Growth to above do not feel too much.
◆ the date of September 15
-Root growth, no one leaves without Shirobanashiran, most mass to form a sphere

Miyama Mojizuri-root growth stops at the leaf is three to five leaves and enhancement of significant
◆ ~ October
No growth from mid-August. . . Shirobanashiran leaves are withered in late September, go into a dormant state. Leaves began to wither Mojizuri Miyama since the beginning of November, the only remaining bulbs went into a dormant state. An attempt planted believe that stored in a dark place until March of next spring.

※ in "cardboard sowing new", (completed sowing May 18, 11) to start Uchouran challenge, Ebine, Kakiran, Miyamauzura, to Iwachidori
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All rights reserved 2008-2012 Copyright © glamor of violet


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## keithrs (Feb 12, 2012)

Your local nursery or hydro store should carry Alaskan Humus or potting soils(FoxFarms) that have beneficials in them. Humus is your best soil option. 

I would not dig up any soil in the concrete jungle..... Who know what you'll come home with...oke:

As Leo pointed out... Fungiperfecti is the best on the market right now. Make sure you get the soluble form.... Plant success has a granular form that good if you just what the fungi. Dry spores are not cheap but your best bet is to combine both to see the best results.

You can also feed the soil with a tea catalyst A.K.A molasses. This will feed the beneficials in the soil so they can continue to reproduce.


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## Stone (Feb 12, 2012)

keithrs said:


> > Fungiperfecti
> 
> 
> 
> Now that's a name I will remember:rollhappy:


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## keithrs (Feb 12, 2012)

Also I will add.... Make sure you use some form of dechlorinated water. 

I'm guessing that there cold to cool germinating seeds?


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## NYEric (Feb 13, 2012)

I only use R.O. water and they're platanthera dilitata and in the fridge right now.


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## Leo Schordje (Feb 14, 2012)

Cool, in my opinion, more people need to attempt to domesticate the Platanthera. There are some really pretty species in this genera, and most come from fairly similar habitats. Figure out how to grow one species, and you will likely be able to do several different species. I would love to grow P. psychodes or P. leucophaea, or P. praecox, but especially for the last two, getting seed is an issue, they are rare near here and I only know them from protected sites. 

Let us know how it works out.


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