# (Phrag. x Mexipedium) Seed Capsule



## tomkalina (Dec 23, 2010)

Many people have tried to cross Mexipedium xerophyticum with every imaginable Phragmipedium species or hybrid and as far as I know, without success. With Phrag. longifolium fma album `Fox Valley Mint' and Mex. xerophyticum in bloom at the same time in our greenhouse, we had to try this one. Sorry for the darkness of the photo, but I think you can see the capsule and the blue tag showing that the capsule has been holding for about 2 1/2 months. Not sure whether there's actually any seed in the capsule and what to expect for a maturity date, but my (non-scientific) theory is that since the longifolium parent is an albino, maybe it's "defenses" against the xerophticum pollen tubes might be lower than normal, and pollination may have actually occured. Will keep you all informed as to progress......


----------



## Ray (Dec 23, 2010)

That's really cool. I hope it's fertile!

Out of curiosity, why would albinism have any impact on that?


----------



## SlipperKing (Dec 23, 2010)

What maturity would you expect for longifolium, as far as, harvesting a pod?


----------



## Ernie (Dec 23, 2010)

Sweet! Would be cool if it takes. 

Even if it turns out to be a selfing of long album, a winner.


----------



## tomkalina (Dec 23, 2010)

Hi Ray,

It's a non-scientific conjecture on my part. Since most albinistic species are poorer growers in general than their normally colored conterparts, it makes me wonder whether they might have weaker immune systems. Assuming the albino long has a weaker immune system (or whatever it's called in plants) I'm hoping there may be less chance of rejection of the xero. pollen tubes as they reach the long fma album ovary. This probably doesn't make sense to the scientific types on the forum, but in my old and twisted mind, it did when I saw the plants in bloom...... we normally harvest our long fma album seed capsules at 100 days. Since xero propagates so well w it's stolons, we don't do selfings or sibbings, so not sure what the maturation time would be for that species. In our experience, Phrag. capsules should be just beginning to split before harvest to achieve the highest lab germination rates, so I guess we'll have to keep a close eye on this one.


----------



## Scooby5757 (Dec 23, 2010)

Awesome Tom! Hey...this means you've been holding out on newer pics of the 'Fox Valley Mint'. oke:


----------



## Jorch (Dec 23, 2010)

I hope it's fertile! Sure sounds like an interesting cross


----------



## tomkalina (Dec 23, 2010)

Ty,

Here's a newer pic of `Fox Valley Mint' showing the (x self) seed capsule that eventually resulted in our first crop of seedlings. Notice the white petal, dorsal and synsepal margins of the flower. Under a microscope, the hairs on the staminode that are black on the normally colored longifoliums, were totally devoid of color - almost transparent on this clone.


----------



## NYEric (Dec 23, 2010)

Frankenstein!! 
If it takes remember your fan club here in NYC!


----------



## Bolero (Dec 23, 2010)

Sounds promising! I hope it works out. I wouldn't mind some seedlings of this one.


----------



## smartie2000 (Dec 24, 2010)

sending you the good luck vibes. I hope we see a new hybrid in future.


----------



## SlipperFan (Dec 24, 2010)

We'll all keep our fingers crossed. 

I've heard that pods that have developed between Phrags and Paphs are really selfings. Could this be possible with Mexipedium, also?


----------



## Drorchid (Dec 25, 2010)

Hey Tom,
I don't think the albinism trait has any effect on the pollination. I have also tried making Mexipedium/Phragmipedium crosses, and have them actually gotten them to germinate, but all of them after a few months seemed to crash in the lab, so this tells me that Mexipediums are definitely related to Phrags, but that there is some incompatibility issues going on that prevents the seedlings from growing, but I wish you success with your cross!

Robert


----------



## Phrag-Plus (Dec 27, 2010)

SlipperFan said:


> We'll all keep our fingers crossed.
> 
> I've heard that pods that have developed between Phrags and Paphs are really selfings. Could this be possible with Mexipedium, also?



I have also tried many crosses with mexipedium and I did harvest few seedpods too (wallisii, longifolium, Mem. dick Clements...etc), I was expected a lot from the one with wallisii to get a mini white long petaled cross. But unfortunately never got anything out of flask neither... 


If they were selfing, I'll gues I'll have some offspring?? But never tried to self it....


----------



## nikv (Dec 27, 2010)

Does anyone know the chromosome count for a Mexipedium? And for the various Phrag species? I wonder whether it would be possible to treat a Mexipedium with colchicine to convert it to 4N. Would that work better in hybridization? Just thinking out loud here.


----------



## Brian Monk (Dec 28, 2010)

Fingers crossed! Robert - Have you tried to manipulate the media hormone concentration in the crosses that crash? I tend to think that the auxin:cytokinin ration may be manipulable, and possibly the addition og giberellins may have some ability to improve growth immediately post-germination.


----------



## PaphMadMan (Dec 28, 2010)

For those who have reported getting germination of phrag x mex crosses, which then die in flask... Have you tried chromosome doubling of protocorms in flask? Could be a shorter route than finding or making 4N parents.


----------



## tomkalina (Dec 29, 2010)

We haven't tried any of the popular methods of chromosome replication, but it would make for an interesting experiment. The problem, at least for us, is that the seedlings grow reasonably well in flask, but seem to damp off within the first 15-20 days out of flask. It seems like there is a certain genetic lethality that presents soon after deflasking. But, we keep trying.................


----------



## NYEric (Dec 29, 2010)

_"History shows, again and again, 
how Nature points up the follies of Men"_ - 'Godzilla' - Blue Oyster Cult


----------



## W. Beetus (Jan 2, 2011)

The longifolium blooms came out great! If the cross does work though, that will be quite an interesting one to see grown out.


----------



## John Boy (Jun 7, 2011)

Hiya Tom,
any update for us?
Bye the way: your pictures are gone. Any chance to pull them back up for us?


----------



## tomkalina (Jun 7, 2011)

John,

Sorry to report there was no germination. This has been the problem with all the (Phrag. x Mex.) crosses we've attempted in the past; the capsules look good, but the seed is apparently not viable. Here's the photo - sorry for the under-exposure.


----------



## John Boy (Jun 7, 2011)

Thank you Tom!
One thing I’ve been wondering since getting into Mexipedium *is the question of how much “pollen-matter” is needed, to truly pollinate another flower?*. We normally don’t come across this issue with other (tropical) slippers, but it seems to me there would have to be some sort of a discussion or consideration weather a single xerophyticum pollen, (and forget the issues of compatibility or chromosome counting,) is physiologically capable or able to pollinate a flower of any other “normal” Phragmipedium or Paphiopedilum proportion. On any daily basis I can easily pollinate 3-4 flowers (Paphiopedilum) with one pollen, if I need to. It seems to me (and I have no data or reference for this whatsoever) that a Mex. xerophyticum pollen is simply put not enough bio-material to pollinate something of a Paph. rothschidlianum size. So my theoretical starting point would be to use at least 2 or more pollen for any given pollination. 
I’m not even sure if that would be any practical, since very few people I know would have sufficient xerophyticum flowers available to give it a go… At the end of the day: It may well be pointless to try, since it’s just a funny idea of mine, which has nothing much more behind it, than a hunch.


----------



## TropiCool (Sep 21, 2011)

Hi, I know it's a few months on, but I just came across this thread...and am intrigued as the rest of you. I keep thinking Mexipedium could provide a bridge between phrags and hardy cyps...so I'm curious about what has been tried so far.

Anyway, one factor not mentioned so far is the length of the pollen tubes. Seems the programming for pollen tube length (reasonably enough) is set for the distance between pistil and ovaries. Mexipedium doesn't need to go far to hit the target, whereas phrags would have more of a stretch. So it's possible that the mexipedium pollen tube just stopped before reaching the ovules of the phrag. Could be the non viable seedlings are actually haploids, essentially products of stimulus without cross fertilization, and thus too weak to prosper.

Have you tried the reverse cross?

I've also read about hybridizers cutting through the flowers and applying pollen farther down the pistil (this on non-orchids).

Erik



John Boy said:


> Thank you Tom!
> One thing I’ve been wondering since getting into Mexipedium *is the question of how much “pollen-matter” is needed, to truly pollinate another flower?*. We normally don’t come across this issue with other (tropical) slippers, but it seems to me there would have to be some sort of a discussion or consideration weather a single xerophyticum pollen, (and forget the issues of compatibility or chromosome counting,) is physiologically capable or able to pollinate a flower of any other “normal” Phragmipedium or Paphiopedilum proportion. On any daily basis I can easily pollinate 3-4 flowers (Paphiopedilum) with one pollen, if I need to. It seems to me (and I have no data or reference for this whatsoever) that a Mex. xerophyticum pollen is simply put not enough bio-material to pollinate something of a Paph. rothschidlianum size. So my theoretical starting point would be to use at least 2 or more pollen for any given pollination.
> I’m not even sure if that would be any practical, since very few people I know would have sufficient xerophyticum flowers available to give it a go… At the end of the day: It may well be pointless to try, since it’s just a funny idea of mine, which has nothing much more behind it, than a hunch.


----------



## NYEric (Sep 22, 2011)

Welcome to the forum.


----------

