# Issue with multis - leaf flopping over



## silence882 (Nov 26, 2014)

Hi all,

I have had some issues in the past with the newest leaves on Paph multis flopping over. I recently got a new roth and sure enough, the newest leaf is now flopping over. I repotted it today so I know the roots are good. It's been getting consistent water so I am at a loss. Has anyone else had this problem?

Here's a pic for reference:




--Stephen


----------



## mrhappyrotter (Nov 26, 2014)

This is pretty common with healthy plants that are growing fast, particularly in the larger growing multiflorals. The plant looks quite healthy, the overall color is good, and you can see the floppy leaf is lighter colored near the center of the plant -- all indications of a plant in rapid, active growth.

Once the leaf finishes maturing a bit, it will begin to hold itself up, so I think you're all good.


----------



## AdamD (Nov 26, 2014)

My multis do this occasionally, especially roths. I stake them temporarily so they get maximum sunlight and remove the stake when the leaves are rigid enough to support themselves. No problems thus far.


----------



## Camellkc (Nov 26, 2014)

My Michael Koopowitz, Philippinese, William Ambler and Lowii often do this. The leave will get firm after it grows bigger or a new leave comes out. I think it is common for mutis.


----------



## emydura (Nov 26, 2014)

Most if not all of my multi's do this while the leaves are growing. Eventually the leaves will become erect. I don't consider this a problem.


----------



## Bjorn (Nov 27, 2014)

Congratulations! Your leaf grows fast! When leaves are fast growing they flop over. This is somehow a bit cyclic and you may experience it for a number of species. Eg. lowii. I measured the growth speed of such a leaf once and got 1.77mm a day over a period of two weeks or so. Amazing. Needless to say that the leaf stiffened up and became upright by its own - without staking etc.


----------



## Stone (Nov 27, 2014)

I believe that even though when this happens it usually rectifies itself it is not normal plant behavoir and idealy should not happen no matter how fast it is growing. Something is not right!
My theory: Either too much N or not enough K to balance it.


----------



## cnycharles (Nov 27, 2014)

Probably having some normal wind in a growing area might help stiffen things up, as a plants reaction to this movement is to be a bit shorter and stiffer. Not sure if that would cure, but it's likely we don't have as much air movement as in these plants natural environment


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## troy (Nov 27, 2014)

Fast growing dude!! These people are veteran growers


----------



## polyantha (Nov 27, 2014)

I agree with all of you. My roths do this sometimes. In nature the wind helps to stabilize the cell structure of the leaf tissue, as said by cnycharles.


----------



## PaphMadMan (Nov 27, 2014)

Stone said:


> I believe that even though when this happens it usually rectifies itself it is not normal plant behavoir and idealy should not happen no matter how fast it is growing. Something is not right!
> My theory: Either too much N or not enough K to balance it.





cnycharles said:


> Probably having some normal wind in a growing area might help stiffen things up, as a plants reaction to this movement is to be a bit shorter and stiffer. Not sure if that would cure, but it's likely we don't have as much air movement as in these plants natural environment



As most have said... this is pretty common, often corrects itself, rarely a real problem. I would still look at nutrients and air movement as suggested, and also consider cooler night temps and addition of silicon.


----------



## Rick (Nov 27, 2014)

Stone said:


> I believe that even though when this happens it usually rectifies itself it is not normal plant behavoir and idealy should not happen no matter how fast it is growing. Something is not right!
> My theory: Either too much N or not enough K to balance it.



I saw this problem more frequently when using regular MSU than Klite so I don't think your problem is inadequate K.

Ca is responsible for cell wall integrity and leaf stiffness, and is generally harder / slower to get into plants. Especially when K, or ammonium is high. Silicon also lends to leaf stiffness, but is not as universally found in plants or in the environment as calcium 

In general this is a common occurrence and not necessarily a problem. I agree its mostly a symptom of fast growth, but I think you could cut N down and see less of this.

I saw this a lot in lowii seedlings with and without high K, but it's rare for me to see it now that I've cut nitrogen application to around 5ppm (K is less than 1ppm now).


----------



## NYEric (Nov 27, 2014)

Why grow multis anyway!? :evil:


----------



## troy (Nov 27, 2014)

Yea multis are poopoo, grow a real orchid!!! Haha j.k.


----------



## silence882 (Nov 27, 2014)

Thanks everyone for the input!

I have put in a stake for the leaf to lean against so it's mostly upright and can catch the light (and because it looks funny flopped over). I have a pretty strong fan blowing in my rather small grow area since I'm a big fan of air movement. I fertilize occasionally with either MSU or K-lite.

Since this seems to be a pretty common occurrence, I'm not gonna worry about it.



NYEric said:


> Why grow multis anyway!? :evil:



I wanted to branch out from something other than boring old besseae hybrids.


----------



## NYEric (Nov 27, 2014)

Child please!:viking:


----------



## Paphman910 (Nov 27, 2014)

This happens to me as well. It has to do with the lower light intensity during this time of the year. Just stake it and add more lighting.


----------



## Stone (Nov 28, 2014)

Paphman910 said:


> This happens to me as well. It has to do with the lower light intensity during this time of the year. Just stake it and add more lighting.



I have an Aerides falcata in a basket doing this right now. It did not happen last year and nothing that I can think of really changed. Certainly not light or air movement. Its a bit of a mystery. Maybe too much N combined with lower light? Come to think of it we have had a lot of cloudy days this spring. Maybe one sunny day per week.


----------



## Stone (Nov 28, 2014)

Rick said:


> > I saw this problem more frequently when using regular MSU than Klite so I don't think your problem is inadequate K.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Bjorn (Nov 28, 2014)

I get this feeling that we have to avoid fast growth because it is unsighty????
Has anyone checked whether or not this is natural and is the "norm" in nature?


----------



## Rick (Nov 28, 2014)

Bjorn said:


> I get this feeling that we have to avoid fast growth because it is unsighty????
> Has anyone checked whether or not this is natural and is the "norm" in nature?



I think these are very good questions. We most often see in situ pics of blooming plants, so the spike would hold that youngest leaf up by default.

My gut feeling on this is not just unsightly, but a chronic bent leaf could lead to damage at the "pinch point" with possible vector to infection. We always worry about air flow and crown rots. In a minority of cases I've had this problem in the past so I would stake leaves to alleviate the pinch and improve airflow to the crown.

Since it does not happen all the time (or even the majority of the time) I don't feel (in my gut) it's "normal". So worth trying to "correct".

Stone was considering the K factor on the basis of water balance and leaf turgidity. If that was the case then maybe inadequate water (either at the roots or air humidity) would be indicated.

If the leaf is turgid and water not limited, but wall strength is weak then improper macro nutrients could be indicated.


----------



## Rick (Nov 28, 2014)

By the way got some data from Manola at Peruflora on PK habitat. ( Not a multi-paph, but a big floppy fast growing Phrag in Karst habitat)

He had interstitial water chemistry from around the roots of in situ PK.

Ca = 45.6 ppm
Mg = 3.96
K = 0.39
Na = 1.2

alkalinity = 104 as CaCO3 (bicarb = 127 ppm)
Cl =14.2
SO4 = 7.68
N (not sure nitrate or total N) = 0.01 me/L so depending on N species less than 1ppm.
No data on P

Conductivity = 250 us/cm


Leaf tissue data
Ca = 23.4 mg/gr
Mg = 5.0
K = 4.9
No Na, S, Cl data

N = 7.2mg/gr
P = 0.8

Also there was a creek just downslope of the PK

Ca = 27ppm
Mg =2.28
K = 1.17
Na = 7.59
alkalinity = 68 ppm as CaCO3
SO4 = 3.84
Cl = 14.2
Conductivity = 130us/cm

Should also add that the water analysis concentrations are right in line what you'd find in the karst regions of Tennessee/Kentucky as well as the sinkholes and streams in the Lake Kutubu region of PNG. It would be great to compare to karst of Borneo and southern China/Laos/Vietnam, but I wouldn't expect to see a lot of difference.


----------



## Bjorn (Nov 28, 2014)

Interesting data, but claiming PK to be a fast growing floppy plant is contrary to many peoples experiences. Guess it can be fast growing, but how to make it, thats the question.
Regarding the floppy leaves syndrome, I see it on lowii, and seen it on some phrags. And recently on randsii as well. Its only when the new leaves push and after a while they stiffen up, raise and look exactly if they never were soft. Just what happens to most leaves in spring.


----------



## Ruth (Nov 28, 2014)

> This happens to me as well. It has to do with the lower light intensity during this time of the year. Just stake it and add more lighting.


I agree with paphman910, since I have been giving my paphs more light, I don't seem to have as much of a problem with floppy leaves.


----------



## troy (Nov 28, 2014)

Even with enough light and humidity during a rapid growth spurt that happens I have an esquirolei that grew an inch and a half in 1 month it's just starting to stiffen up I can post a pic if you want, it's still kind of floppy


----------



## Stone (Nov 29, 2014)

Rick said:


> By the way got some data from Manola at Peruflora on PK habitat. ( Not a multi-paph, but a big floppy fast growing Phrag in Karst habitat)
> 
> He had interstitial water chemistry from around the roots of in situ PK.
> 
> ...


----------



## Rick (Nov 29, 2014)

Any low K program is closer to these constituent ratios than the old MSU or a 20-20-20 at 100ppm N. Obviously there's a ton of latitude that the plants will tolerate since we have a lot of good looking plants to show for it.

But yes you could grow plants on nothing but tap water too (and some people do that too). That would be closer to what nature provides.


----------



## Rick (Nov 29, 2014)

Stone said:


> Habitat data is begining to look more and more incomplete to me!



Incomplete, or not matching up to the notions we construct on how we think the world should operate:wink:


Also interesting was rainfall pattern. This was "dry season" data. When it just rains part of every day.

Sampling during "Wet Season" is prohibitive since it rains continuously for days on end, and the creeks are impassible raging torrents!! Subsequently mineral constituents would be much reduced by dilution during wet season.


----------



## gonewild (Nov 29, 2014)

Rick said:


> Incomplete, or not matching up to the notions we construct on how we think the world should operate:wink:
> 
> 
> Also interesting was rainfall pattern. This was "dry season" data. When it just rains part of every day.
> ...



Sampling during the wet or dry season will yield about similar results, not much in the flowing water.
Insitu nutrient data won't tell us much more until we find a way to determine the nutrients that organisms provide directly to the plant. The flora and fauna that live IN and on orchid roots are likely providing most of the nutrients the plants get from Nature. There is not enough nutrients in stemflow to supply what the plants are using and orchid roots are not well adapted for removing nutrients from substrates.

Yes floppy leaves do happen in the wild but not normally. I think the "flop" is a result of a combination of rapid growth caused by high nutrients, warmer than normal remps, darker than normal conditions and increased water supply that happen to coincide with a certain stage the leaf growth is in.


----------



## Rick (Nov 29, 2014)

gonewild said:


> The flora and fauna that live IN and on orchid roots are likely providing most of the nutrients the plants get from Nature. There is not enough nutrients in stemflow to supply what the plants are using and orchid roots are not well adapted for removing nutrients from substrates.



Given the N in PK leaf tissue I'd agree that most of the N is coming in from nitrogen fixing flora, but there's plenty of K, Ca, and Mg to support the plant in stemflow.

Plants are less than 1% macros and micros wet weight. So it doesn't take much to support them.


----------



## naoki (Nov 29, 2014)

Folliar overdosing of auxins (e.g. Kelp) when there isn't enough light and/or temp? It's a wild speculation, but auxins are involved in etiolation (e.g. bean sprout) and phototropisms.


----------



## SlipperFan (Nov 29, 2014)

Well, I sometimes experience this with both my multis and my Phrags. I just brace them a bit until the leaves stiffen on their own. I don't see it as a big problem.


----------



## cnycharles (Nov 30, 2014)

Wouldn't there be more mineral in runoff during high rain and flooding? Water usually gets muddier because of erosion and though higher volume of water past roots it still has constant nutrients in it. Constant flow could allow high potential for overall access just a thought 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rick (Nov 30, 2014)

cnycharles said:


> Wouldn't there be more mineral in runoff during high rain and flooding? Water usually gets muddier because of erosion and though higher volume of water past roots it still has constant nutrients in it. Constant flow could allow high potential for overall access just a thought
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



These are soluble ion measurements and do not account for solids. You can have more solids loss (yes more particulates/TSS) under higher flows, but solubility of solids is relatively constant per element of concern (under natural conditions of temp and pH), so with more water you just dilute more from the constant pool of leaching solids. Calcareous materials are generally the slowest and monovalents (sodium and potassium) the fastest. Given that Ca is the highest cation in solution you can see that the source pool of Na and K is small and washed out

When you look at stormwater runoff the "first flush" after an extended dry period is the most concentrated, but it dilutes fast as the rain event continues.


----------



## gonewild (Nov 30, 2014)

cnycharles said:


> Wouldn't there be more mineral in runoff during high rain and flooding? Water usually gets muddier because of erosion and though higher volume of water past roots it still has constant nutrients in it. Constant flow could allow high potential for overall access just a thought





Rick said:


> These are soluble ion measurements and do not account for solids. You can have more solids loss (yes more particulates/TSS) under higher flows, but solubility of solids is relatively constant per element of concern (under natural conditions of temp and pH), so with more water you just dilute more from the constant pool of leaching solids. Calcareous materials are generally the slowest and monovalents (sodium and potassium) the fastest. Given that Ca is the highest cation in solution you can see that the source pool of Na and K is small and washed out
> 
> When you look at stormwater runoff the "first flush" after an extended dry period is the most concentrated, but it dilutes fast as the rain event continues.



Remember the run off that most orchids get comes from rock, not mud laiden ground that washes away in a rain or covers orchid plants in a flood. Even during torrential downpours most of the rain water in tropical type habitat flows in channels and the orchids are either beside or over the ground flow. As Rick said the first rainfall will carry the most dissolved nutrients but the plants exposure to that water is very short and quickly followed by huge amounts of 0 EC water.
The high rain and run off water would be more of a clear water flush than a nutrient bath.


----------



## troy (Nov 30, 2014)

When the leaves get floppy thats when you should eat them as a salad or blend them up as a veggie drink. Lol...


----------



## gonewild (Nov 30, 2014)

troy said:


> When the leaves get floppy thats when you should eat them as a salad or blend them up as a veggie drink. Lol...



I prefer a crispy salad.


----------



## Stone (Nov 30, 2014)

Rick said:


> > Incomplete, or not matching up to the notions we construct on how we think the world should operate:wink:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Rick (Nov 30, 2014)

Stone said:


> Rick said:
> 
> 
> > Another example. I have a Phal schilleriana which I very happy with at the moment. Nice big round fleshy leaves like I would expect in the wild plants.
> ...


----------



## Bjorn (Dec 1, 2014)

One brief comment; remember that pot growing restricts the roots severely. Most paphs in the wild have very big root systems as compared to a pot-bound plant and will therefore be able to capture more nutrients. To compensate for that, we need to add the nutrients as a higher dose, which may, or may not have negative side-effects. The solution to this would probably be to grow our plants in rather shallow, but wide containers. That way the roots would have space but unfortunately, the number of plants per square meter would drop; so .....Guess we will have to build even bigger greenhouses boys (and girls)!:clap:


----------



## Stone (Dec 1, 2014)

Bjorn said:


> > One brief comment; remember that pot growing restricts the roots severely. Most paphs in the wild have very big root systems as compared to a pot-bound plant and will therefore be able to capture more nutrients. To compensate for that, we need to add the nutrients as a higher dose, which may, or may not have negative side-effects.
> 
> 
> I agree with this completely. Some epiphyte roots are measured in tens of feet. Up to 30 feet long on a little plant!! That is a HUGE surface area and does not come close to our poor plants!
> No wonder they need feeding. Or does the extra feeding inhibit this massive root growth? either way the results are the same. I have never observed the massive breakdown that Rick keeps quoting


----------



## Rick (Dec 1, 2014)

Bjorn said:


> One brief comment; remember that pot growing restricts the roots severely. Most paphs in the wild have very big root systems as compared to a pot-bound plant and will therefore be able to capture more nutrients. To compensate for that, we need to add the nutrients as a higher dose, which may, or may not have negative side-effects.



However, we normally see root rot before root bound.oke:

It takes NPKCaMg to make roots as well as leaves and flowers. So adding more concentrated NPK to make bigger leaves unsupported by big roots doesn't make sense.

Also more roots really means more water before more nutrients. Plants are 99% water and carbon. Only 1%NPK. Also plants inhale/exhale (evapotranspiration) water, but the inorganics stay in the plant to work.

Kind of like gasoline goes in and out of a car when its running, but the nuts and bolts that hold it together are constant (and relative to the size of the car). Little cars few nuts and bolts, big cars more nuts and bolts. Also they only need to be replaced for maintence, not to make the car go down the road.

Plants need big roots to support big leaves, and bigger leaves allow you to pump more water (which takes more roots to get the water). Vicious circle.


----------



## Rick (Dec 1, 2014)

Stone said:


> Bjorn said:
> 
> 
> > No wonder they need feeding. Or does the extra feeding inhibit this massive root growth? either way the results are the same. I have never observed the massive breakdown that Rick keeps quoting
> ...


----------



## Rick (Dec 1, 2014)

Stone said:


> Some epiphyte roots are measured in tens of feet. Up to 30 feet long on a little plant!! That is a HUGE surface area and does not come close to our poor plants!



Unless I'm missing some sarcasm, I think you just agreed with my long term premise that the environment is dilute/ impoverished.

And that root water data for PK isn't missing something.:wink:


----------



## Bjorn (Dec 2, 2014)

Rick said:


> Bjorn said:
> 
> 
> > No wonder they need feeding. Or does the extra feeding inhibit this massive root growth? either way the results are the same. I have never observed the massive breakdown that Rick keeps quoting.
> ...



??? I did not say that? BUT according to my theories, accumulation of cations, particularly potassium, may cause Your roots to rot. Look into another thread(repotting) for more on that


----------



## Stone (Dec 2, 2014)

Rick said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > > What massive breakdown? Everyone else keeps thinking all the N comes from breakdown of aerial leaf litter, insect and frog poop, but I don't believe that.
> ...


----------



## Stone (Dec 2, 2014)

Rick said:


> > Unless I'm missing some sarcasm
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Stone (Dec 2, 2014)

Rick said:


> > Root growth and leaf growth on my mounted plants increased with reduced K (remember I dropped K before dropping N). So would indicate that K was inhibitory.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## gonewild (Dec 2, 2014)

Stone said:


> Rick said:
> 
> 
> > Stone said:
> ...


----------



## gonewild (Dec 2, 2014)

Rick said:


> Everyone else keeps thinking all the N comes from breakdown of aerial leaf litter, insect and frog poop, but I don't believe that. I think it comes from live N fixing bacteria and BG algae.



100% correct. That's why orchids have specialized roots that provide an environment that can support the nutrient supplying living organisms.

Not all artificial environments allow the micro organisms to populate well enough to supply the orchid plants needs and that is where liquid fertilizer steps in as an artificial life support system.

That is also why some people can grow fantastic orchids without using fertilizer, because their environment has populated with the correct micro organisms.


----------



## gonewild (Dec 2, 2014)

Stone said:


> > "Rick" Further reducing N over the past year or so has not inhibited root or leaf growth in my mounted plants suggesting that N beyound the 5ppm/saturated spray per day was a waste.
> 
> 
> 
> Its not a watse Rick. re-read all the Phal trials.



Do you have a link to a Phal trial where they applied nutrients daily at various concentrations? I've only seen trials done with longer time span between irrigations.


----------



## Rick (Dec 2, 2014)

Stone said:


> Bjorn said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with this completely. Some epiphyte roots are measured in tens of feet. Up to 30 feet long on a little plant!! That is a HUGE surface area and does not come close to our poor plants!
> ...


----------



## Rick (Dec 2, 2014)

Stone said:


> Rick said:
> 
> 
> > Stone said:
> ...


----------



## naoki (Dec 2, 2014)

Stone said:


> No No I mean the boom and then bust you attribute to high rates of fertilizer. The reason your schill went down hill was not because you were feeding it too much. How old was it? They don't just keep getting bigger like other orchids. They have a definite life span. You don't see Phals hanging around from last century like you do with some Paphs and Catts.



Are you sure about this, Mike? This page is in Japanese, but search for "cluster", and you'll see huge Phalaenopsis specimen plants.

http://ranwild.org/Phalaenopsis/monthly/monthlyhead.html

P. pulchra, P. luddemaniana, P. schilleriana, P. stuartiana etc. Each photo is a single individual. They were originally grown in Phillipine, and imported to Japan. It is not easy to achieve this (maybe easier with P. pulchra) in the temperate zone for some reason (maybe higher temp).


----------



## troy (Dec 2, 2014)

Naoki your site is in japanese!!!! Pretty pictures but terrible when your searching for info


----------



## gonewild (Dec 2, 2014)

troy said:


> Naoki your site is in japanese!!!! Pretty pictures but terrible when your searching for info



Try this link
http://ranwild.org/Phalaenopsis/Eindex.html


----------



## Stone (Dec 2, 2014)

gonewild said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > Rick said:
> ...


----------



## gonewild (Dec 2, 2014)

Stone said:


> I don't really know much about them. But the guy who wrote the book on them (name??) sais 10 years is considered old.



What's "the book"?
Is he saying 10 years is old because people kill them with poor culture or they just die of old age no matter what?



> Well no, I'm sure they are easy to kill if you really try!



And easy to keep alive if you really try!


----------



## Stone (Dec 2, 2014)

gonewild said:


> > 100% correct. That's why orchids have specialized roots that provide an environment that can support the nutrient supplying living organisms.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Stone (Dec 2, 2014)

gonewild said:


> Do you have a link to a Phal trial where they applied nutrients daily at various concentrations? I've only seen trials done with longer time span between irrigations.



Pretty sure many were fed at every watering. But the intervals are not important in this discussion. The responce to concentrations is.


----------



## Stone (Dec 2, 2014)

Rick said:


> Stone said:
> 
> 
> > Also keep in mind that roots of epiphytes (especially those giant vanda roots) are not inorganic hollow pipes, but living, organic, photosynthesizing, and productive part of the whole plant.
> ...


----------



## Stone (Dec 2, 2014)

naoki said:


> Are you sure about this, Mike? This page is in Japanese, but search for "cluster", and you'll see huge Phalaenopsis specimen plants.
> 
> http://ranwild.org/Phalaenopsis/monthly/monthlyhead.html
> 
> P. pulchra, P. luddemaniana, P. schilleriana, P. stuartiana etc. Each photo is a single individual. They were originally grown in Phillipine, and imported to Japan. It is not easy to achieve this (maybe easier with P. pulchra) in the temperate zone for some reason (maybe higher temp).



I'll need to have a longer look at this naoki. Superb plants! from the qiute look I only saw multi planted slabs and with perhaps lots of keikis growing but not too many clups arising from the same stem. But even so, I don't believe they are particularly long lived plants compared to some orchids. Perhaps that is why they are so prone to producing kiekis on the flower stem or the roots.
But all this aside, My point was that I don't see a reason to blame feeding- which produced a massive plant-to also be suddenly the cause of it's demise.
How does that part work? 
I was looking for another possibility for the plants downfall. Age? Infection? Sudden chill? could be anything. If it's feeding doing it, why does it take a decade? Doesn't make sense...... K does not take a decade to build up in the tissues and cause problems does it?


----------



## gonewild (Dec 2, 2014)

Stone said:


> gonewild said:
> 
> 
> > > But those N fixing organisms are every where in the soil and on leaves and ALL plants and trees utilize them not just orchids and they need a massive root system to gather it.
> ...


----------



## gonewild (Dec 2, 2014)

Stone said:


> Pretty sure many were fed at every watering. But the intervals are not important in this discussion. The responce to concentrations is.




But intervals and frequency is important in this discussion! 

Most Phal growers and Phal trials water and fertilize once per week or as long as 10 days.
I asked if you had reference to a trial so we could compare the trial you mentioned to watering with low N dose of 5ppm every day as Rick stated he does. 
Interval and frequency makes a huge difference. How does 5ppm everyday compare to 200ppm once per week? It's well known that Phals in commercial culture get their nutrients directly from irrigation water and not the media. It is also known that if you can manage a media that allows for more frequent irrigations the plants grow faster. Phal growers apply 200 ppm N once per week and the roots soak up what they can and use the N until the roots dry then they don't grow until they get watered again (basically). How does the frequency of watering everyday with 5ppmN compare to an interval of ten days with 200ppmN.
Frequency is directly related to concentration of nutrients for plant growth.


----------



## gonewild (Dec 2, 2014)

Stone said:


> K does not take a decade to build up in the tissues and cause problems does it?



As you said most Phals don't live a decade. Most die much sooner. 

It seems K can build up to toxic levels (depending of genetic tolerance) within a few years time. Many growers experience batches of seedlings that grow very well and lush for a couple seasons and then suddenly the batch starts to decline, get rot and die off... for no apparent reason with no environmental failures. They question is is the sudden disease problem caused by random bacteria or is it a result of too much K.

Some individual plants probably have more tolerance to high K levels than others so there is a random presentation of problems.


----------



## Brabantia (Dec 3, 2014)

gonewild said:


> But intervals and frequency is important in this discussion!
> How does the frequency of watering everyday with 5ppmN compare to an interval of ten days with 200ppmN.
> Frequency is directly related to concentration of nutrients for plant growth.



I would have preferred 5 ppm each day compared with 50 ppm all the ten days.
In Phalaenopsis culture I am pretty sure on bases of what I have seen the Dutch distribute the fertlyser each day. In the morning this an automatic distribution


----------



## gonewild (Dec 3, 2014)

Brabantia said:


> In Phalaenopsis culture I am pretty sure on bases of what I have seen the Dutch distribute the fertlyser each day. In the morning this an automatic distribution



They water approximately every 5-7 days. And they apply concentrations of 150-200ppm N with every watering.

If we assume they watered every 7 days and applied only 150ppn N each time that would be equivalent to 21ppm N every day. But not really because the roots are only wetted once in the time frame. The math does start to resemble Ricks small daily doses of 5ppm N.

What benefits the plant more 5ppm N per day or 35ppm N once per week?


----------



## Rick (Dec 6, 2014)

after Bjorn's post about pot bound paph roots, I was cracking up when poking around the GH this morning.





These stonei seedlings are just sitting in an empty plastic tote. The plant on the left ran a root over to the plant on the right, traveling past the potted one between them.:rollhappy: It's only been a couple weeks max since I pulled these guys out of the tote to check them too.

I ended up breaking the tip off the root trying to pull it out of the basket it had grown into. but no shortage of roots coming out of these baskets.


----------



## emydura (Dec 6, 2014)

That is amazing Rick. I would have thought once the root tip was out of the potting mix and in thin air it would die off. But they keep growing like the roots of a Phalaenopsis


----------



## Bjorn (Dec 7, 2014)

Wonderful Rick! I see that as well, but it is entirely dependent on ultra-high humidity, so I rarely see it on top of the pots. Under the pots however there are relatively often some roots peeking out and wandering around. Onthe top however, occasionally but quite rarely there is a root sneaking into the neighbours to have a forbidden taste. Of course with baskets, this incidence must be much more common, - as long as you keep the environment moist enough. People tend to underwater IMHO so I guess it a rare phenomenon after all. Pls look after those ferns, they tend to take over the pot and easily transform into a problem. I weed them all the time. For some reason, I have been invaded by at least three tropical kinds, that never were deliberately introduced, plus adiantums, that I introduced deliberately. The adiantums are not invasive but with the others there is a constant battle!:arrr::arrr::fight:


----------



## Rick (Dec 7, 2014)

Bjorn said:


> Wonderful Rick! I see that as well, but it is entirely dependent on ultra-high humidity, so I rarely see it on top of the pots. Under the pots however there are relatively often some roots peeking out and wandering around. Onthe top however, occasionally but quite rarely there is a root sneaking into the neighbours to have a forbidden taste. Of course with baskets, this incidence must be much more common, - as long as you keep the environment moist enough. People tend to underwater IMHO so I guess it a rare phenomenon after all. Pls look after those ferns, they tend to take over the pot and easily transform into a problem. I weed them all the time. For some reason, I have been invaded by at least three tropical kinds, that never were deliberately introduced, plus adiantums, that I introduced deliberately. The adiantums are not invasive but with the others there is a constant battle!:arrr::arrr::fight:



Yes You are quite right on needing the ultra humidity to perpetuate that kind of root growth with the paphs. These baskets are kept in a plastic tote, so sometimes there is a little extra water on the bottom of the box for an extended period of time, and I'm sure the humidity down in the tote is higher than for the baskets hanging in the GH. And as you noted in your other thread, I've been able to water much heavier without root rot at lower feed rates.

Yes ferns all over and lots of weeding. Sometimes I think this helps give the paphs in baskets something secure to root into once the sphagnum starts to wash out. Lots of times I chop off the tops leaving the roots behind rather than pulling the whole mess out.


----------

