# Inexpensive kovachii



## theorchidzone (Sep 23, 2015)

We are blooming quite a number of kovachii. I have listed one on EBAY with no reserve. Flower is not great, but I am hoping someone with limited budget can get a kovachii to try. Then maybe next time buy an expensive one.
I missed this one when it just had opened, so it was likely flat for a short period.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/262063120783?
JC


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## gonewild (Sep 23, 2015)

No offense....but... OZ should not sell that plant.


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## theorchidzone (Sep 23, 2015)

Why?



gonewild said:


> No offense....but... OZ should not sell that plant.


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## troy (Sep 23, 2015)

Interesting......


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## gonewild (Sep 23, 2015)

theorchidzone said:


> Why?



In my opinion it does not meet the standard of reputation OZ has earned over the years. It is by far the worst kovachii ever shown. 
Selling it does not do the reputation of the species any good justice either.

As I said just my opinion.


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## ehanes7612 (Sep 23, 2015)

gonewild said:


> In my opinion it does not meet the standard of reputation OZ has earned over the years. It is by far the worst kovachii ever shown.
> Selling it does not do the reputation of the species any good justice either.
> 
> As I said just my opinion.



i would be inclined to agree, and ebay is a place where one's reputation can be shredded pretty fast.


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## theorchidzone (Sep 23, 2015)

I am selling a seedling exactly as shown. Sometimes seedlings turn out well and sometimes not. I imported a few hundred seedlings from Ecuagenera and Peruflora in order to do selective breeding.

I have plenty of very good and excellent ones, but the prices are very high, as you can see on my other listings. And see my webpage.

I am trying to give someone the chance to grow a kovachii, who otherwise might not be able to afford it. They can learn about growing this still relatively rare species and then when they can afford it, they can buy an expensive one.
When I was a student, I could not easily afford any orchid above $10. I grew lots of cheap orchids, I had fun, and now I can afford to own Orchid Zone.

The alternative to selling this for cheap is to throw it away. I didn't want to do that.

If fellow STers advocate throwing the plant in the trash, please let me know.

JC


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## SlipperFan (Sep 23, 2015)

I think as long as you are honest in selling it, you are fine. Besides, this is a first bloom seedling, and we all know that the first flowering of a slipper is not necessarily a good judge of the plant's potential.


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## gonewild (Sep 23, 2015)

theorchidzone said:


> If fellow STers advocate throwing the plant in the trash, please let me know.
> 
> JC



As a professional breeder you should compost it and not perpetuate poor genetics.


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## silence882 (Sep 23, 2015)

I've got no issue with OZ selling this plant. OZ doesn't want it and no one doing any breeding's going to be using it, so why not let someone buy a kovachii for a low price?


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## gonewild (Sep 23, 2015)

silence882 said:


> I've got no issue with OZ selling this plant. OZ doesn't want it and no one doing any breeding's going to be using it, so why not let someone buy a kovachii for a low price?



Because in a few years OZ will have a reputation of selling crappy plants as opposed to their high standard they have now.


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## theorchidzone (Sep 23, 2015)

gonewild said:


> As a professional breeder you should compost it and not perpetuate poor genetics.



So you are telling me to throw away a CITES 1 species which is likely endangered?


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## ehanes7612 (Sep 23, 2015)

i wouldn't sell it on ebay, myself. perhaps orchidmall.com or even ST..much better chance of selling to people who are more understanding of the quality of the plant.


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## gonewild (Sep 23, 2015)

theorchidzone said:


> So you are telling me to throw away a CITES 1 species which is likely endangered?



Yes.

It's not an endangered species, it's artificially propagated and artificially survived. No self respecting pollinator would go near that flower in Nature.


If you do want to use the protecting a species concept then that is an even greater reason to cull out the weak plants that would not have survived if not for invitro germination and an ideal environment that allows "weak" genetic plants to survive to maturity. You need to be the predator and cull the herd.


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## NYEric (Sep 23, 2015)

I'll bid, I love a challenge.


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## abax (Sep 24, 2015)

I agree with Lance on both counts: reputation destruction and allowing bad genetic material out into the general
population. I realize it's a conundrum, but generally most
orchid people have a tendency to want to cross something with something just to see the result. I suspect that's why we see so many bad orchids.


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## Denver (Sep 24, 2015)

I have very mixed feelings on this as it could damage your reputation. But I also see it like you where someone who isn't sure they can provide the right conditions for the plant can have a chance to experiment on a BS size kovachii at a good price.

I do however think that those mentioning genetics are making a major assumption that what orchid people view as a "correct" flower is genetically superior. In terms of surviving in nature that plant could be the best plant in the world-we really don't know...


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## gnathaniel (Sep 24, 2015)

Sell it! I'd buy it if I had any money. 

Lance, why do you say this is a weak plant that wouldn't survive in the wild? Looks pretty healthy to me even with a wonky first bloom. Besides, even 'weaker' individuals often carry genes that are valuable to maintain in a population. If we're entertaining grandiose visions of preserving a rare species in captivity, then linebreeding for bigger, rounder flowers is probably a lot worse for the captive population's long term fitness than is failure to cull out subjectively uglier individuals.


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## Hugorchids (Sep 24, 2015)

It's not like bunch of us have these plants up the ying-yang to cull these plants--heck some of us don't even know how to grow them properly--what's the problem for OZ to release some plants for us to try growing them? The same could be said about their roths, there are some good and some bad. There's no reputation damage if he has already told you where they came(not from their own breeding), there's even a flower pic to go with it--fair disclosure, let the free market decide.


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## naoki (Sep 24, 2015)

Well-said, Nat, and I completely agree with Nat. Some of us are into the natural, functional beauty of plants (rather than human defined aesthetics). Not everyone likes pansies. Ex-situ conservation is near impossible, and line-breeding is particularly an enemy to reduce the effective population size. Different people have different values, so there is nothing wrong with line-breeding, neither. But there are people who avoid plants with beauty awards. So this plant looks perfect for those people.


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## Justin (Sep 24, 2015)

nothing wrong w/selling a plant as-is. it's kovachii, folks, not a line-bred roth, which i believe they do cull.


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## paphreek (Sep 24, 2015)

It's a tough call, John, but you are selling it in the most ethical way by giving photos of both the plant and flower. The buyer can make their own value judgement.


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## gonewild (Sep 24, 2015)

gnathaniel said:


> Lance, why do you say this is a weak plant that wouldn't survive in the wild? Looks pretty healthy to me even with a wonky first bloom. Besides, even 'weaker' individuals often carry genes that are valuable to maintain in a population. If we're entertaining grandiose visions of preserving a rare species in captivity, then linebreeding for bigger, rounder flowers is probably a lot worse for the captive population's long term fitness than is failure to cull out subjectively uglier individuals.



Because the flower is very much different from the normal wild species form it can be considered a runt or genetically weak individual. The plants that OZ bought from SA growers (this seedling) are not likely line bred but rather bred from wild collected parents. So the offspring should carry the traits of the parent population. I dont see how "weaker" genes have value to a population. My comments are not about beauty but rather about proper plant breeding.


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## NYEric (Sep 24, 2015)

I'm worried about growing and learning cultural requirements, not breeding, so it's not an issue if I win it!


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## paphioland (Sep 24, 2015)

gonewild said:


> As a professional breeder you should compost it and not perpetuate poor genetics.



These are plants not animals and even animals you would just prevent it from breeding. Just because it is uglier than average to me doesn't make it unhealthy. Everything is relative. People breed crap all the time I wouldn't. How can you control that. People could go to home depot buy a paph and self it. You could say 99% percent of orchids shouldn't be bred. That is the exact reason why John is selling it. He is not encouraging people to breed with it. It is being sold at pot plant price and has no reserve on ebay. It is accurately described and pictured. It may even bloom better next time. There is no reason in my eyes to trash this plant if someone will enjoy it and maybe get it to bloom a little better next time. And almost no orchid place trashes pot plants unless they are weak growers or prone to disease. They sell them as pot plants. John is just nice enough to give an enthusiast the chance to buy it instead of selling it to pot plant buyers.


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Sep 24, 2015)

I had been trying to keep out of it, BUT I'm with Paphioland on this one. He couldn't have said it better. I don't grow a single phrag. but thanks John for offering it to others to learn on, as well as enjoy.


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 24, 2015)

Many great points have been made here about OZ selling this plant, and I see some very flawed reasoning as well as usual. 
I also agree with pretty much everything positive said about it. 

I don't see how it should ruin OZ reputation. He was being clear about everything, the photos of the flowers (sure, ugly, but not everyone has the same beauty standard and some people also just love oddity), pricing, and the purpose, which is great because someone out there who finds this flower pretty and don't have to spend tons of money can get this and be happy with it.


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## gonewild (Sep 24, 2015)

So in the end OZ becomes known as a source of low quality plants at cheap prices, that's a change and I guess people want change.


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## Heather (Sep 24, 2015)

It is interesting to me that I can't recall another thread like this on on of our vendor forums. I am somewhat disturbed by the judging of John and his decision. The Orchid Zone has been a great supporter of this forum since John took over the operation of the business and it has been so nice to have Orchid Zone finally participate more in this community. Not too long ago very few of us could buy anything from their breeding. I remember a time where folks complained about the exclusivity of the business and now this?

Shame that something like this may drive them away from sharing opportunities and participating here.


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## NYEric (Sep 24, 2015)

Forget everyone else, I've always been a fan John! :evil:


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## gonewild (Sep 24, 2015)

Heather said:


> It is interesting to me that I can't recall another thread like this on on of our vendor forums. I am somewhat disturbed by the judging of John and his decision. The Orchid Zone has been a great supporter of this forum since John took over the operation of the business and it has been so nice to have Orchid Zone finally participate more in this community. Not too long ago very few of us could buy anything from their breeding. I remember a time where folks complained about the exclusivity of the business and now this?
> 
> Shame that something like this may drive them away from sharing opportunities and participating here.



Actually I did not express my opinion to criticize John or OZ. I did so as what I feel is sound advice for them to safe guard the high reputation OZ has achieved. John asked why, so I gave him an answer. Since having an open discussion is no longer politically correct please delete my posts.


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## paphreek (Sep 24, 2015)

I support John in this instance. I also face this quandary when selling plants in bloom, and I do something similar:
1. I sort the plants in order of the flower quality
2. I price them accordingly, with lesser quality flowers cheaper and
3. Put them out on the table together and let the buyers choose.

Some pay for the higher quality and some happily grab the lower priced plants. There have been times when someone picks up a lesser flower and states that they like it better than the other ones. As has been said earlier: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


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## tant385 (Sep 24, 2015)

But selling with the full disclosure now does not guarantee that this plant several month later will appear on ebay with tag "OZ breeding" without ugly looking flower and with very good price and somebody will buy it. And then the reputation can be ruined


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## gonewild (Sep 24, 2015)

tant385 said:


> But selling with the full disclosure now does not guarantee that this plant several month later will appear on ebay with tag "OZ breeding" without ugly looking flower and with very good price and somebody will buy it. And then the reputation can be ruined



Exactly my point.


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## mormodes (Sep 24, 2015)

I'm with Lance. 

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 24, 2015)

Actually, not so.

When someone considers buying a previously flowered paph, and for quite a bit of money, it is wise to ask the seller for flower pictures. 
Well, actually this should not be the order. When selling a previously bloomed paph for premium claiming it is from so and so, and the seller has nothing to hide, then he will and must post a picture showing the flower. That's just how it should be done.

If the seller fails to show flower pictures and tries to sell previously bloomed plant for a premium wherever the plant comes from, it is instantly suspicious and only dumb people will fall for it. 

Plus, when the sale is not directly from OZ, and when the full disclosure is not given, then OZ cannot be blamed. Some people still might, but that's their problem being irrational and unreasonable.

Also, lastly, this plant is not of OZ breeding but an import from South America.


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 24, 2015)

paphreek said:


> I support John in this instance. I also face this quandary when selling plants in bloom, and I do something similar:
> 1. I sort the plants in order of the flower quality
> 2. I price them accordingly, with lesser quality flowers cheaper and
> 3. Put them out on the table together and let the buyers choose.
> ...



Exactly. There are markets for everything and different people have different tastes/standards. With broader options to offer, more people can have access to different plants.
No reason to ruin reputation. Only more people will be happier, and the bitching will always be there.


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## John M (Sep 24, 2015)

No vendor, who has bills to pay and a business to run, has an obligation to trash a plant just because it's not up to show quality standards. This plant, just like the really good ones, represents part of John's net worth and it is responsible for a share of his expenses. As long as it's in good health, he has every legal, moral and ethical right to sell it at what the market will bear....as long as people know what they're buying. 

John has excellent ethical standards by providing FULL DISCLOSURE and showing current photos of the plant and flower. If anything, I believe his reputation will be enhanced by doing this. People who don't care about show quality form can now afford to buy healthy plants from the Orchid Zone......And, people who want quality and are paying for it, will know that John has pre-culled the pre-bloomed plants with poor form out of his "high-end" sales stock and that means they're far less likely to get a "bad one". Now, if a person pays $350 for a pre-bloomed plant, they can rest assured that they're not going to get a plant with flowers like this. They know that John culls them and sells them off at a different price point. They know that what they get will be exactly what they want and paid for. That makes for a happy customer and more repeat business at both ends of the price spectrum.

So, this strategy serves the people who want to grow orchids; but, can't afford the normal prices and it serves the high-end growers who don't want to pay normal or high prices and end up with average or poor show quality. It also serves John's desire/need to bring in revenue and pay his bills and make a living while he keeps his business healthy and prosperous. It's a win/win/win for John and all his customers, regardless of their financial standing.

As long as the plant is healthy, there's nothing wrong with this at all....nothing.


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 24, 2015)

couldn't agree more!


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## dodidoki (Sep 24, 2015)

I would buy it soon, but I'm out of US. By the way, most of USA wendors are suffering with this silly problem: no sell out of US. However these plants are arteficially propagated. US lows need to modify, I think. I never understood why these arteficially propagated plants are prohibited for exports.


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## NYEric (Sep 24, 2015)

How do you prove they're artificially propagated?


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## dodidoki (Sep 24, 2015)

I think not just about this one, but flasks!!!! I just wrote it because one USD for a kovachii is very cheap even it is the worst kovachii of the world. But I can't buy....BUT: I can't get to a stonei album , because all of available flasks are sold by US vendors, exept one, but his min. value of order is more than 1.000 USD. Anyway I can pay for a flask , 5 plants/flask 300 USD.


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## gonewild (Sep 24, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> If the seller fails to show flower pictures and tries to sell previously bloomed plant for a premium wherever the plant comes from, it is instantly suspicious and only dumb people will fall for it.



That's a very difficult expensive task for a grower to be required to do. Photograph every plant that did not sell in bloom and maintain a library of photos of each plant. That would be very expensive for a grower such as OZ. The reality is it would probably cost $20 per plant in employee time for the photos. In the past a growers reputation made it not necessary to see photos. 

Just look at the hassle selling a low quality plant for 99 cents has already caused.  You might blame me for saying it but I bet plenty of people seeing the ad are thinking it.


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## gonewild (Sep 24, 2015)

dodidoki said:


> I would buy it soon, but I'm out of US. By the way, most of USA wendors are suffering with this silly problem: no sell out of US. However these plants are arteficially propagated. US lows need to modify, I think. I never understood why these arteficially propagated plants are prohibited for exports.



US law does not prohibit the export of the plants. The sellers just dont want to get the required permits and that is because the buyers dont want to pay the cost. It's not US law it is a CITES requirement (international law).


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## gonewild (Sep 24, 2015)

NYEric said:


> How do you prove they're artificially propagated?



By growing the plants in a licensed nursery and having the propagation process inspected by the responsible government agency. oke:


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## paphioland (Sep 24, 2015)

gonewild said:


> US law does not prohibit the export of the plants. The sellers just dont want to get the required permits and that is because the buyers dont want to pay the cost. It's not US law it is a CITES requirement (international law).



There is really no such thing as international law. It is a multilateral Treaty. A country has to agree and choose to adopt parts or all of the treaty. Each country has their own interpretation as well. The US obviously adopted CITES and has a very strict interpretation. If the US wanted to it could totally ignore CITES. The only law in the US is US law.


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## dodidoki (Sep 24, 2015)

gonewild said:


> US law does not prohibit the export of the plants. The sellers just dont want to get the required permits and that is because the buyers dont want to pay the cost. It's not US law it is a CITES requirement (international law).



High cost for permission is the same as laws. I think there is nonsense to pay for cites in case of flasks.


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## gonewild (Sep 24, 2015)

paphioland said:


> There is really no such thing as international law. It is a multilateral Treaty. A country has to agree and choose to adopt parts or all of the treaty. Each country has their own interpretation as well. The US obviously adopted CITES and has a very strict interpretation. If the US wanted to it could totally ignore CITES. The only law in the US is US law.


 
US law does requires that the US enforce the international treaty.
Actually I dont think they interpret it incorrectly they just enforce it as it is stupidly written.


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## gonewild (Sep 24, 2015)

dodidoki said:


> High cost for permission is the same as laws. I think there is nonsense to pay for cites in case of flasks.



:clap:


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## Chicago Chad (Sep 24, 2015)

> .BUT: I can't get to a stonei album , because all of available flasks are sold by US vendors, exept one, but his min. value of order is more than 1.000 USD.


contact Ono Achima
He has 5 plant flasks and no minimum order. He ships to me from Thailand, through Miami and to my desert wasteland in 4-5 days.


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## Heather (Sep 24, 2015)

gonewild said:


> Since having an open discussion is no longer politically correct please delete my posts.



No one is deleting anything; you should know me better than that by now. This has become an interesting discussion and may be moved, however, because I've been asked to close this vendor forum by the vendor. While a valuable discussion, I'm not sure this was exactly the right place for it. 

The vendor forums are for vendors to sell their plants and advertise their offerings.


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 24, 2015)

gonewild said:


> That's a very difficult expensive task for a grower to be required to do. Photograph every plant that did not sell in bloom and maintain a library of photos of each plant. That would be very expensive for a grower such as OZ. The reality is it would probably cost $20 per plant in employee time for the photos. In the past a growers reputation made it not necessary to see photos.
> 
> Just look at the hassle selling a low quality plant for 99 cents has already caused.  You might blame me for saying it but I bet plenty of people seeing the ad are thinking it.



Well, I don't think it is very difficult at all. 
Plus, I'm talking about quality plants that are sold for good money. 
Without providing a flower photo when selling previously bloomed plants, it is just not right. 
If you look around, actually all the well-known vendors show pictures when selling something that cost hundreds to thousands of dollars. 
I mean who wants to drop that much money without seeing the quality?
No one. 

When you charge so much money, you have to do some work and keeping photos in file ( now we have computers that help) is so easy breezy.

The "hassel" here has nothing to do with selling. Don't you see there are at least two people who are ready to buy the plant? NYC and Germany? oke:


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## gonewild (Sep 24, 2015)

Heather said:


> No one is deleting anything; you should know me better than that by now. This has become an interesting discussion and may be moved, however, because I've been asked to close this vendor forum by the vendor. While a valuable discussion, I'm not sure this was exactly the right place for it.
> 
> The vendor forums are for vendors to sell their plants and advertise their offerings.



 yes Heather I know you would not sensor. My suggestion to delete was not as censorship but rather to not dirty up his vendor thread. That was not my intent but John did ask "why".


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## Heather (Sep 24, 2015)

Ok, thanks Lance.


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## gonewild (Sep 24, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Well, I don't think it is very difficult at all.



Actually it really is a tremendous amount of work if you have a volume of product. Very time consuming to associate and catalog the pictures to a specific plant (or other product)



> Plus, I'm talking about quality plants that are sold for good money.
> Without providing a flower photo when selling previously bloomed plants, it is just not right.
> If you look around, actually all the well-known vendors show pictures when selling something that cost hundreds to thousands of dollars.
> I mean who wants to drop that much money without seeing the quality?
> No one.



I was basically considering the average plant that is what most people buy and a quantity is on hand. Plants that sell for hundreds of dollars or more are the exception and certainly photos are in order.



> When you charge so much money, you have to do some work and keeping photos in file ( now we have computers that help) is so easy breezy.



Easy Breezy? :rollhappy: not if you have a couple hundred a day to do.




> The "hassel" here has nothing to do with selling. Don't you see there are at least two people who are ready to buy the plant? NYC and Germany? oke:



They will probably be outbid! It will wind up selling for $100 just because it is from OZ.


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## 17andgrowing (Sep 24, 2015)

Mixed feelings here.


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## Hien (Sep 24, 2015)

Well,
we, slippertalk members obviously missing something about the quality of this plant ..
Someone likes it enough to set the price at 61.00 dollar at this moment , and we still have one day to go


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## abax (Sep 24, 2015)

I wasn't attacking John either. I do hope he understands
that. I own a wholesale tree nursery to sell to garden centers, large landscapers in several states...in short, we
sell by tractor trailer loads to people in the business. We
don't advertise and our customers are knowledgeable about what they're buying and are free to come tag the
specific trees. Laurel Nursery IS our reputation for quality and is priced accordingly. OZ has been highly respected for as long as I can remember and I'd hate to
see that reputation suffer because of an ugly plant no
matter how honest John is about it. Specialized businesses are terribly vulnerable to word-of-mouth.


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## troy (Sep 24, 2015)

Who cares you guys!!! get a grip!!!! there are newbies who would love to grow a kovachii as starter phrag thats not award quality why not? o.z. to me grows better healthier plants than I've seen anywhere, who cares if they want to sell a less than what a judge or a veteran
would call award quality


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## NYEric (Sep 25, 2015)

t's already above $60! "Inexpensive", is relative.


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## Fabrice (Sep 25, 2015)

It's a false controversy.

There's the flower picture (it would just be better to see the whole plant)
The buyer will appreciate the form and will probably grow this plant for his pleasure, just to bloom it in the next 2,5 10 or 25 next years.
I don't understand where is the genetical problem in this case. And more, it's necessary to be careful. For me, this flower could be like that because of another environnemental problem when it spiked. 2nd bloom could be normal.

Personnaly, I wouldn't buy this plant but I know why. If someone like the esthetic and if the plant grow normally, no problem. That stops the controversy.


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## Heather (Sep 25, 2015)

*Thread Moved*

Since I will be closing the vendor forum this was originally posted in, I've moved the discussion here to Breeding & Production. There will be a redirect from the original site as well but once I close the forum I'm not sure it will be accessible. 

This may not be the most appropriate forum fit to continue the discussion but it seemed to be the best contextually. 

Carry on!


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## Kostas (Sep 25, 2015)

For under 100$, I would happily buy and bid for it if OZ allowed. I have a friend who wants to grow this species but can't because of price and would happily give it to him. I also see it as mostly stemming from environmental factors or something random and not poor genetics, second bloom will show but I am 95% sure it will be pretty normal looking, even if not award quality. But awards are pretty subjective to my eyes, I care for what a species looks like in nature and I am not so much for line breeding


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## emydura (Sep 25, 2015)

The whole thing is pretty irrational to me. If you don't like it don't buy it. The argument that it damages the Orchid Zone's reputation doesn't wash with me. John would sell many unflowered seedlings where results like this can occur. In fact he could have sold this seedling before it flowered. It doesn't matter how good the breeding is, there will be some plants that will be of inferior quality. That doesn't mean it damages the reputation of the Orchid Zone. If John has to be able to guarantee that all plants that leave the Orchid Zone are of top quality, he would not be able to sell unflowered seedlings. He would have to flower all plants first to ensure quality control. A totally ludicrous situation that neither benefits him or us.


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## gonewild (Sep 25, 2015)

emydura said:


> The whole thing is pretty irrational to me. If you don't like it don't buy it. The argument that it damages the Orchid Inn's reputation doesn't wash with me. John would sell many unflowered seedlings where results like this can occur. In fact he could have sold this seedling before it flowered. It doesn't matter how good the breeding is, there will be some plants that will be of inferior quality. That doesn't mean it damages the reputation of Orchid Inn. If John has to be able to guarantee that all plants that leave the Orchid Inn are of top quality, he would not be able to sell unflowered seedlings. He would have to flower all plants first to ensure quality control. A totally ludicrous situation that neither benefits him or us.



It's not unflowered. And you are right it wont damage the reputation of image of Orchid Inn.


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## emydura (Sep 25, 2015)

gonewild said:


> It's not unflowered. And you are right it wont damage the reputation of image of Orchid Inn.



DOH!!! Apologies to Sam and John, I have corrected my post above. 

My point still stands though. You make the point that if the buyer of this plant later on sells this plant claiming it is a quality plant from OZ, it damages OZ's reputation. If he had bought the plant before it flowered, he could do exactly the same thing and sell it as a quality plant from OZ. There is no difference. The reputation of the seller is at question here, not OZ.


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## ehanes7612 (Sep 25, 2015)

ebay sucks


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## gonewild (Sep 25, 2015)

emydura said:


> DOH!!! Apologies to Sam and John, I have corrected my post above.
> 
> My point still stands though. You make the point that if the buyer of this plant later on sells this plant claiming it is a quality plant from OZ, it damages OZ's reputation. If he had bought the plant before it flowered, he could do exactly the same thing and sell it as a quality plant from OZ. There is no difference. The reputation of the seller is at question here, not OZ.



About reputation....
OZ built it's reputation for quality by not selling low quality. Historically they did not sell unflowered seedlings. The point is when you purchase an unflowered seedling you take your chances. In this case OZ took the chance and "lost"(not really since ebay buyers are paying a profitable price). Based on OZ's previous reputation they would not likely sell that runt plant with their name on it simply because it is so far below the normal quality.

I just don't believe a commercial breeder of quality plants should send to market every plant that survives, culling is part of the advancement.
But that's just my opinion.

And no matter who resells it in the future OZ is responsible for creating it...good or bad. When low quality plants have a source label on them they will over time reflect on the quality the source nursery produces.
Sure it's just one plant but what if OZ sells all their runts, will they maintain the high standard they are known for?


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## paphioland (Sep 25, 2015)

This might be the most absurd thread to date in my opinion. It is John's business. He can do what he wants. People can give their opinions if they want. You know what they say about opinions? Actually I think John has benefited lots of people on here with access to plants they might not have previously had access to. 

By the way Terry sold every plant he could. He only culled plants that were money losers. Meaning they grew really slow or were prone to disease. He sold Crappy plants as pot plants. There were lots of them. You know what percentage of even a great complex cross are pot plants???? I'd say over 80 percent. Anyone could buy pot plants. He was happy to get rid of them. Most of them went to florists, or casinos or Hollywood studios or anyone who wanted to buy them. So this whole thread is absurd.


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## NYEric (Sep 26, 2015)

"pot plants"!?:evil:


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## monocotman (Sep 26, 2015)

*Selling a 'runt'*

There is a world of difference between selling the runts from a complex hybrid cross and and what appears to be one from a straight species. 
There will be a much bigger percentage of poor plants from the complex cross. 
My view is that it is very likely that this plant will flower out with a perfectly acceptable flower when older and bigger. You can see from the third photo that the plant is a small first flowering seedling with just a few paleish leaves. 
Who was it that said ' never toss a Phrag until it has flowered three times?' 
The first flowering of my Phrag kovachii hybrid La Vingtaine was hopeless. You would have thrown it there and then if you believed that this was going to be the final result. The third flowering is my avatar and a nice thing. 
Two good things from a breeding perspective I can see in this plant. The colour is good plus it wants to flower even when not at its best. It could mean that it is a free flowering clone. 
Personally I would buy it if I could and have no problems with its sale. 
You know what you are getting which is much more than can be said compared to unflowered seedlings from a complex cross. 
David


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## Ozpaph (Sep 26, 2015)

Ferrari will never sell a mass consumer vehicle; its a reputational risk.
'Big Brands' dont sell 'seconds' themselves, they outsource to 'factory outlets'. 
Similarly, if I was a 'high end' orchid vendor I'd sell it through a 'third party' without my name attached. ie disconnect the brand from the inferior product and still re-coup costs.
The logic is simple - an inferior product is distributed through a mass media outlet (in this case eBay) with the 'aspirational' brand name attached. The more this occurs the greater the likelihood the brand becomes attached to inferior products................not what most companies aspire to.
Id re-think my brand strategy if I were them.


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 26, 2015)

What you said about the high end brands strategy is very true. 

I think it is somewhat different here with plants though when you consider it's plants although the basic principle might be similar.

Personally, I don't have any problem with eBay.
Sure there are lots of strange and inferior products but there are also lots of great stuff. It is also a very convenient and easy way to sell products given its high visibility and popularity. 
I like the fact that I can see the plants offered on eBay as I prefer being able to see the plants before buying to avoid any disasters.





Ozpaph said:


> Ferrari will never sell a mass consumer vehicle; its a reputational risk.
> 'Big Brands' dont sell 'seconds' themselves, they outsource to 'factory outlets'.
> Similarly, if I was a 'high end' orchid vendor I'd sell it through a 'third party' without my name attached. ie disconnect the brand from the inferior product and still re-coup costs.
> The logic is simple - an inferior product is distributed through a mass media outlet (in this case eBay) with the 'aspirational' brand name attached. The more this occurs the greater the likelihood the brand becomes attached to inferior products................not what most companies aspire to.
> Id re-think my brand strategy if I were them.


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## John M (Sep 26, 2015)

NYEric said:


> "pot plants"!?:evil:



Oh Eric....grow up! oke:

Context is everything. This context has nothing to do with "your kind" of pot plants! :rollhappy:


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## John M (Sep 26, 2015)

Ozpaph said:


> Ferrari will never sell a mass consumer vehicle; its a reputational risk.
> 'Big Brands' dont sell 'seconds' themselves, they outsource to 'factory outlets'.
> Similarly, if I was a 'high end' orchid vendor I'd sell it through a 'third party' without my name attached. ie disconnect the brand from the inferior product and still re-coup costs.
> The logic is simple - an inferior product is distributed through a mass media outlet (in this case eBay) with the 'aspirational' brand name attached. The more this occurs the greater the likelihood the brand becomes attached to inferior products................not what most companies aspire to.
> Id re-think my brand strategy if I were them.



Hmmm? That's good food for thought. That way, costs are recouped and someone still gets a relatively cheap kovachii; but, the high-end brand name's status is maintained and does not become known as "just another orchid nursery".


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## paphioland (Sep 26, 2015)

Ozpaph said:


> Ferrari will never sell a mass consumer vehicle; its a reputational risk.
> 'Big Brands' dont sell 'seconds' themselves, they outsource to 'factory outlets'.
> Similarly, if I was a 'high end' orchid vendor I'd sell it through a 'third party' without my name attached. ie disconnect the brand from the inferior product and still re-coup costs.
> The logic is simple - an inferior product is distributed through a mass media outlet (in this case eBay) with the 'aspirational' brand name attached. The more this occurs the greater the likelihood the brand becomes attached to inferior products................not what most companies aspire to.
> Id re-think my brand strategy if I were them.



Oh they don't? How about the california? They have levels as well. The ff is crap. Many Ferraris were crap. The comparison is not relevant either. The oz has been selling all levels of their breeding as long as I can remember and their brand is just fine. Plants are a genetic lottery with the odds slightly influenced by breeding. You are going to compare them to cars? I think it's funny if the oz threw out all pot plants and only sold highly select plants then they would be astronomically expensive. I think what many people think is good is crap. Where do you draw the line? Throw out anything that is not spectacular? 99 the percentile?


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## Lint (Sep 26, 2015)

Everyone suggesting to trash the plant should be ashamed of themselves. Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. I for one am sick of every species being bred towards flat dinner plate shape. 

So the plant does not fit your arbitrary ideas about beauty? Big deal! Someone else will like it. It's sold as is with flower picture, so whoever buys it knows what they are getting themselves into.


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## gonewild (Sep 26, 2015)

Lint said:


> Everyone suggesting to trash the plant should be ashamed of themselves. Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. I for one am sick of every species being bred towards flat dinner plate shape.
> 
> So the plant does not fit your arbitrary ideas about beauty? Big deal! Someone else will like it. It's sold as is with flower picture, so whoever buys it knows what they are getting themselves into.



 Not arbitrary ideas based on beauty. The judgment is in comparison to what a wild normal kovachii looks like. Culling the plant is how to keep a captive strain of a species consistent and in a genetic form that represents wild plants in Nature.


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## jtrmd (Sep 26, 2015)

I know I would trash(cull) it, if it were in my GH. I just got done throwing(culling) away another 30 plants that in my opinion weren't up to par of putting time into growing on. 
As for this kovachii I say sell it, so someone could get it cheap. That way they can learn how to grow it. They wouldn't be out a whole bunch of $, if it dies I have two kovachii's that are about blooming size. If they bloom out ugly they will join all the others in the compost pile.


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## Secundino (Sep 26, 2015)

This whole 'award-prize-beauty' thing is very questionable. I'd prefer a floppy 'bad' tridimensional _Phal. equestris_ a hundred times before getting a line-bred plant that for some reason is still called 'equestris' and does not look like a wild _equestris_ at all.

Look at the in-situ photographs which have been posted in this forum, for Paphios, Cypris and Phrags: not all are perfect, and some are even deformed. As long as their propagating organs work in the way they should - forming a capsule and releasing seed - they are substantial part of the genetic pool of that species at that specific place. 
That has nothing to do with beauty (beautyful to whom? the hoover fly?) and even less with any arbitrary award-judgement. 
For nature 'beauty' as we see it is unsubstantial; vigour and the ability to procreate _whatever_ strain is essential. 

I don't like _kovachis_ (in fact, the 'best' are the ugliest to me) and this one isn't cheap any more (for my purse) but if I had the opportunity where I live to buy a cheap and interesting _species_ like this plant, I'd do.

Of course, I understand the point that those, like me, who we don't like _Phrag. kovachii_ because we don't think it is a nice flower at all, this special one could reinforce our opinion! Not all of the thousands and thousands of orchids species coming from Peru can be just simply gorgeous!

It's just a plant! Sell it! No harm at all ...


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## Chicago Chad (Sep 26, 2015)

This whole thing is bullshit. Should my friends that breed AKC bloodline Pits just go ahead and shoot the little bastards with small paws and skinny heads?!!? 
It's the same damn thing.
All bullshit.
Sorry John. Keep emailing the lists out if this isn't going to work here.


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## Hien (Sep 26, 2015)

The bid ends at 222.50


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## gonewild (Sep 26, 2015)

Hien said:


> The bid ends at 222.50



Bidders likely influenced by the reputation OZ has for high quality.
Sorry, that plant was not worth that price.


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## troy (Sep 26, 2015)

Why do you hate orchid zone? Lance?


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## gonewild (Sep 26, 2015)

troy said:


> Why do you hate orchid zone? Lance?



I dont hate them! Read what I have been writing, it's not out of hate but rather trying to offer valid advice. I want Orchid Zone to remain a high quality orchid nursery icon like they are. I dont want to see the tradition die and them become just another common nursery known for selling low end plants. It takes years to earn a good reputation but only days to mess it up, especially now with the internet.

I have not expressed any negative opinion about OZ. My opinion is about the act of selling low quality plants and how it will hurt the business in the end. I'm sorry people are not able to see the positive side of my comments.

My last comment is based on this... 
It's simple, look at the ad and description for the plant on ebay. Nowhere in the ad does it allude to the plant being low quality but here on ST John does acknowledge that fact. In the ad it says a chance to own the species "without breaking the bank" but that is likely perceived to relate to the 99cent starting price and not the idea that the plant will sell for a cheap price. So the inexperienced uninformed buyers will likely bid based on the reputation OZ has for selling high quality.
Looks to me like that is what happened. Great way to make a profit but not so good for maintaining a good reputation. 
No hate from me.


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## tant385 (Sep 26, 2015)

100% agree with Lance! It was targeting the experienced grower. And it worked! I am king of newbie myself and first thing you get to know that there are "good quality vendors" and then you suddenly realize that not all the plants with the same name are the same..


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## Linus_Cello (Sep 26, 2015)

Hien said:


> The bid ends at 222.50



Is this more or less than an Aibo robot?


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## jtrmd (Sep 26, 2015)

Linus_Cello said:


> Is this more or less than an Aibo robot?



HAHAHAHHAHAHA! Much less, but never looked at them on Ebay.


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## NYEric (Sep 27, 2015)

Linus_Cello said:


> Is this more or less than an Aibo robot?



:rollhappy: :rollhappy: You are most evil!! :evil:


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## Justin (Sep 27, 2015)

i'm sorry but some of what has been said in this thread is just ludicrous. i am thankful my business is not a public one where people can use the internet to spew nonsense about my practices.


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## gonewild (Sep 27, 2015)

Justin said:


> i'm sorry but some of what has been said in this thread is just ludicrous. i am thankful my business is not a public one where people can use the internet to spew nonsense about my practices.



If you had a public business you would know what is being said is not nonsense.


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## jtrmd (Sep 27, 2015)

I don't think its all nonsense, and some people have good points. The internet can ruin a reputation for a business quick(ex: Orchid Forums with experienced growers). I say who cares what they sell or do? It is a different OZ than when it was just Terry. If someone wants to buy a runt off of them let them. The day OZ starts selling 'Box Store' quality orchids on a daily basis at a high price. That will make a difference to me.


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## SlipperFan (Sep 27, 2015)

This has been an interesting thread, and I think both sides have made very good points. Thanks, Heather, for the appropriate move.

But what I sure do not understand is why, if this is such a poor flower (and there seems to be no disagreement there), why would someone actually pay 200+ dollars for it when they could get a good one for about the same price?! THAT doesn't make sense!


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 27, 2015)

It is called excuse. You want to make money, you have to work for it.

I don't think you follow as usual. But let me try again one last time, into details.
You don't have to take pictures of every plant you sell and no one does that.
You don't even have to use pictures of your own stock. 
Just one representative picture for each group will do. 

For plants that cost hundreds of dollars and more, usually division or previously flowered plants, you must have pictures of the flowers of those plants being sold.

Are you saying you have hundreds of these top quality orchids that you have hard time photographing? I highly doubt it. 
No one does. 




gonewild said:


> Actually it really is a tremendous amount of work if you have a volume of product. Very time consuming to associate and catalog the pictures to a specific plant (or other product)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## gonewild (Sep 27, 2015)

SlipperFan said:


> But what I sure do not understand is why, if this is such a poor flower (and there seems to be no disagreement there), why would someone actually pay 200+ dollars for it when they could get a good one for about the same price?! THAT doesn't make sense!



Dot that is the point of what I have been saying about reputation. Not all orchid buyers have easy access to knowledge about quality/value/price. Maybe they do have access but they don't use it. In the case of ebay buyers bids are very much determined by the reputation of the seller. So when buyers see the OZ brand they know 100% the quality is high...based on years of reputation. That reputation is priceless and that is why in my opinion they should not offer low quality plants to the general public under their own name. I don't think that is "ludicrous or bullshit".


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## Hien (Sep 27, 2015)

Linus_Cello said:


> Is this more or less than an Aibo robot?



I am wondering what is an Aibo robot, so I google it , damn those robot dogs are so cute.:drool::drool::drool:


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## gonewild (Sep 27, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> It is called excuse. You want to make money, you have to work for it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Really no one has hundreds of high quality orchids? OK.

Hundreds would not be too much of a problem but if you look at the benches at OZ you will realize they have thousands.

But about the photography part I do know exactly what i am talking about. I have sold 10s or thousands of individual items online over the last 10 years. Mostly small pieces of wood. Each one had to be individually photographed, usually with 4 or 5 images. Each item had to be put on a shelf and it's photos filed on a hard drive. To sell the item pictures had to be retrieved and either sent in an email to a buyer or uploaded online. The time it takes to do that process I know well and it is expensive. The actual taking of the picture is not the main expense but if you want it to appear online as it really looks color wise you have to individually adjust each picture....time(cost). The whole process is costly in an employees time. You might be surprised how few images an employee will produce in a day. It's much more profitable to maintain a good reputation so your customers don't need to see a photo. But those were the good Old Days.


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## NYEric (Sep 28, 2015)

Hien said:


> I am wondering what is an Aibo robot, so I google it , damn those robot dogs are so cute.:drool::drool::drool:



Then you need to search, "LostinPeru" or, "Aibo" here on STF!!


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 28, 2015)

Lance-

Sorry I forgot the very important part of the sentence, but I thought you'd still get it as it was a response to your statement.
A couple hundreds a day. 
So that should make more sense now.

I know well about ORchod Zone and business so no need to lecture me on. 

Again, what you say is just an excuse. 
You want to charge hundreds of dollars per plant, then you have to put on some efforts. Photograph is the least you can do. 
Talking about time and money it takes is absurd as it is all part of money making. 

By the way, even in the good old says as you day, they had photos


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## Secundino (Sep 28, 2015)

The bidding has an extra part - the gambling. It is not like buying from a Catalogue, you want to get what your are bidding for, you want to avoid others to get what you want to get - and that implies paying a lot more - normally - as you would have done if you just look at a photograph in a catalogue or a plant on a shelf ...

But - it is a _species_. Many would claim that there is no crappy species! So, may be, the buyer is happy now, because a) he/she has won the bidding and b)he/she has the plant he or she wanted to have. 
Beauty and to some extend quality are very subjective.

btw, me too had to google the robot ...


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## gonewild (Sep 28, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> By the way, even in the food old says as you day, they had photos



Crappy ones and very difficult to see on your phone.


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 28, 2015)

What are you talking about?

Back in the day, no cell phones.

Plus, pictures in the catalogue was not crappy. 

This is my last posting on this thread.


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## Fabrice (Sep 29, 2015)

Lance, Ok you have your point of view, different of many growers here.

So please, don't try to change all the opinion.

The majority of sellers (and probably OZ too) sells regulary plants already bloomed (and not kept for their breeding programm) or plants from a cross less good than hoped (decided after to bloom the 1st plants). In France, we named that "rebus"
Do you think it is better than this ebay kovachii with flower?

$222 for this plant, one more reason to think this kind of flower can interest many growers and I don't think it's a problem for the OZ reputation.

But the good question is to know if other plants like that will bloom later. If yes, that's the real problem. 
But one "bad" flower, no breeding problem and no reputation problem for me.


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## Hien (Sep 29, 2015)

NYEric said:


> Then you need to search, "LostinPeru" or, "Aibo" here on STF!!



Ha ha,
I did not know there is a post about Aibo on STF, where was I at the time that thread was started?:clap::clap::clap: 
thanks Eric


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## NYEric (Sep 29, 2015)

It was a chapter in our lives that is better hidden, like Bell-bottoms and platform shoes!


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## 17andgrowing (Oct 3, 2015)

Happypaphy7 said:


> What are you talking about?
> 
> Back in the day, no cell phones.
> 
> ...



What are you man or mouse. Never let anyone chase you away, just my 2cents.


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## gonewild (Oct 3, 2015)

17andgrowing said:


> What are you man or mouse. Never let anyone chase you away, just my 2cents.



I'm not gone. Just waiting for someone else to speak up.


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## ronan (Oct 4, 2015)

Oz reputation was based on his selling practice: you souldn't afford the priceless plants that were supposed to be amazing. Only for the Elit Secret Growers Members. And all the "runts" (it means all other plants) were "trashed" or sell somewhere and you will never know...: The magic of secret! And maybe it was so...
Now we can see the priceless plants (well, in my imagination they were better: The magic of the secret again), we can see the runts, and we can see the New Elit Growers (LOL). Magic is gone and maybe is what lance said.
But buisness is buisness.
Just my to cents.


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## cnycharles (Oct 5, 2015)

Quite a thread. Lots of angst. I believe before most public people could not buy an orchid zone plant. In this case, why should those previously not able to buy those plants be concerned about an oz 'elite' reputation? Occasionally selling plants listed as not elite standard will attract more attention to the new policy of selling more to the general public. The general public does not care about elite status if they have the opportunity to buy something not otherwise affordable. 
Glen decker was talking with many at our orchid show last weekend and stated that the days of lots of high end buyers spending thousands on big plants or elite are gone; it was necessary to tap a bit more of the 'public' market. .. and if you think that one plant offered as non elite started at a lower price is going to damage a reputation, I think the discussion point is not statistically valid. Amid offers of thousands of plants on ebay and the Internet, one is not likely to create a publicly noticeable trend. If happens over and over there may be more chance of this.
Business is business. I don't care if oz loses elite status and lowers themselves to 'darned good' status along with the opportunity to buy something I otherwise couldn't. Oz has sold a bunch of big species that weren't up to their quality with flower pictures for reasonable prices and many of us would have been happy to get them; who is to say what will or won't come from the wild and ditch something because it 'doesn't match; vendors plant searchers and growers in many countries for more than just orchid plants are looking for any variation that doesn't match the 'norm' and try to sell it as a 'different' variety, species etc. If it doesn't match the expected who cares. This is all fuss just because it's kovachii and everyone gets riled about this species. It's just another plant; sell it with pic, move on, find better quality source and go from there


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NYEric (Oct 5, 2015)

gonewild said:


> I'm not gone. Just waiting for someone else to speak up.



Sometimes less said is more!


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