# On the use of CHC as substrate



## Brabantia (Nov 19, 2007)

Recently I had included this question in a subject which was covered approximately a year ago(http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1850&page=6). Drowned in the innumerable ones discussed this question received only one answer. 
I thus allows me to republish it in a new thread:
One year later, is it news about this subject? It is very interesting because we have a similar discution on a french forum. Is it new opinions on the use of CHC for paphs? Can we use CHC for Paph rothschildianum and sanderianum? Can CHC induce deprives in iron? Many thanks in advance for your news comments on this extreme subject.


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## DavidH (Nov 20, 2007)

I've been using CHC for about 2 years. I use a west coast version of the MSU fertilizer and haven't noticed any iron deficiencies. Summer time has no problems, but in winter CHC stays a bit too wet. Some of the major growers I know on the east and west coast who were once proponents of CHC have switched back to fir bark. I am currently successfully growing roths in CHC and my sanderianums haven't done too well, but that could be because they are sanderianums. My phrags, on the other hand, really love the CHC, especially if I let them sit in a bit of water.


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## Bolero (Nov 20, 2007)

I've been using it for close to 2 years and haven't noticed this being a problem. In fact it's the best media I've ever used, the root systems and growth rates on my plants are amazing.


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## SlipperFan (Nov 20, 2007)

I've been using CHC with diatomite and a little sponge rock for my Paphs and Phrags for over a year. So far, they like it just fine.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 20, 2007)

As I said in another post, CHC gets gradually waterlogged over time. Its still a great medium, but you must add LOTS of inorganic aerating media...spongerock, lava rock, diatomite, whatever you prefer. While the mix may be able to be good for 2 years (multiforals can easily go 3 years in the mix) its probably safest to repot after a year. Take care, Eric


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## Bolero (Nov 20, 2007)

In addition I've been growing my plants in it over 2 winters and have not noticed it staying too wet but it depends on your conditions and the plants. I grow mainly Parvi's and their hybrids and give them a watering rest, they dry out a bit never too much and the roots are growing well. Also my cattleya's are growing quite well which is actually quite surprising to me.

I will never go back to bark, it's too arid in my conditions, especially in summer.

P.S. It might get waterlogged over time but I repot my Paphs every 6 months at the moment so it doesn't get a chance to get waterlogged I guess.


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## goldenrose (Nov 21, 2007)

DavidH said:


> I've been using CHC for about 2 years... but in winter CHC stays a bit too wet. Some of the major growers I know on the east and west coast who were once proponents of CHC have switched back to fir bark. I am currently successfully growing roths in CHC and my sanderianums haven't done too well, but that could be because they are sanderianums. My phrags, on the other hand, really love the CHC, especially if I let them sit in a bit of water.



Roths & sands like water BUT they should have an open mix .... this is probably why they went back to firbark. Most phrags, anything with bess in it, will prefer to sit in water & they're not too fussy about the media, as long as they don't dry out.


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## NYEric (Nov 21, 2007)

I decided to use CHC in my mix after I had a plant in CHC and one of my porthos grew into it. when I decided to remove it the roots were so numerous that I had to dynamite them out of the pot!


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## Mrs. Paph (Nov 21, 2007)

I really prefer CHC's as a media...as for the comment about them holding more water over time...think about what Bark does over time! LOL, waterlogged would be an understatement for something that more quickly turns to Mush over time. As someone else said, I repot about yearly, sometimes more with small plants, and it tends to still be holding up Really well at that point, so I throw it into the mix for my 'other' orchids...my step 'chids I guess - Phals, Cats, etc. they're dutiful 'chids and don't complain about the handmedowns. As always though, quality of bark and CHC's varies.


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## joan (Nov 22, 2007)

I have read that when potting orchids, fresh media should be used so as not to spread any disease, or fungus from one plant to the next. If the media, such as lava rock , is sterilized , then its ok to reuse it.


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## Roth (Nov 22, 2007)

*CHC and a reply to the other post*

I just noticed the other thread http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1850&page=6 where parts of my emails have been quoted in it. Actually, I did not notice, so that's why I did not reply to it at that time.

About the trials, one has been conduced by the Netherlands largest orchid plug supplier, on phalaenopsis. This research has been watched by people from the largest consulting company in the Netherlands. It was an early one from 1998. A document of 38 pages give the summary for this research, and has been supplied to all of their largest customers only.

They compared bark/coconut with bark/coconut/sphagnum and bark/sphagnum, for a complete growing cycle ( from flask to bloom). The results showed clearly that the bark/coconut plant had much more roots, but many were chlorotic and stunted compared to the bark/sphag mix. The bark/spag/coconut mix was below average, but not as worse as the bark/coconut mix.

The sampling for each trial ( they even tred 4 different fertilizer as well at the same time) were about 400 plants of 5 clones for each sample. So it has to be pretty accurate.

At that time, an internal document in the Netherlands pointed out an excess of sodium and potassium in the coconut coir, CHC, whatever. They included a protocol to rinse the CHC, which I published on the OrchidWEB forum some years ago. After having been called a fool by one of this forum member, who incidentally published several PDF files on their website about the use of CHC as a potting medium, they posed on OrchidWeb their 'Discovery' regarding the fact that CHC after many rinses with pure water still holds a huge amount of unreleased sodium and potassium. They gave the same protocol I posed some weeks before.

I have to say that I do not blame them to have called me 'crazy', because the occurence of insoluble sodium salts like that is very, very, very rare, and some years before, I would not have believed it. 

For the history, it is a laboratory in south Germany who made a mistake, they reduced the coconut chips in ashes, thinking that the customer ordered a destructive analysis, and then they found a very high rate of sodium in the analysis, with a fresh water extract of the fresh product giving an EC of 80 or 100µS...

Two others companies asked me to make a reasearch for that. One for paphiopedilum, and another one for phals again, to try to be able to use this material.

First, I have used for few years coconut products, in a blend sold by Bas van Buuren, that I ordered specially. Coconut pieces ( not exactly square chips, more shredded and irregular sized parts) + 3cm big washed bark + PG-Mix (micronutrients blends and fertilizer) + lime ( 3kg/m3 of Dolocal). It was working great, except some losses, and, I discovered lated, some permanent stunting of some of the plants. Abnormal growth occured from time to time, but I attributed it to the use of pesticides. The largest supplier of species orchids in the Netherlands was using a blend a bit similar, albeit smaller.

One year, I went to this nursery, and most of the plants were yellowish, stunted, and dead. I think he lost in a year about 30.000-40.000 plants, paying very expensive consulting fees. I will not go deeper in the details, but basically, that year, the coconut killed a lot of his plants.

He was followed, like every single Dutch plant grower, by a consulting team, who forwarded his case to the Wageningen University. They had a lot of headache, but he switched back to bark and sphagnum, and the new plants did not die anymore. The older ones were unrecoverable.

There were auctions on ebay and sales of compots and plants of paphiopedilum potted in the coconut chips, and I remember that I posted several times a big warning, because the plants looked heavily stunted and chlorotic, like the ones from the Netherlands. No one followed at that time my advise, of even did comparative tests.

Even the Orchid Zone plants were looking more chlorotic than a couple year before when I visited them. The leaf color was more yellowish, the plants 
looked less healthy.

The 3 trials I did ( two for two companies and one for me), showed that initially the coconut products will promote great root growth, but after a while the plants will start to be stunted, nearly always. In commercial pot-plant production ( they are usng it a lot), it is not a problem because first they use a drip irrigation system for many of them, and the coconut is partially washed ( not completely, but it delays the intoxication heavily), so the plant collapse will occur after the plants are sold, much later. Some plants are tolerant of coconut however.

About the hormons that are not water soluble, in fact, many hormons are not soluble in pure water... Second, there are still some oils and similar water insoluble compounds that binds to the fiber, those can be washed off by using some very strong solvents ( and incidentally, the coconut starts to perform better, but I highly doubt many people will wash their coconut in boiling acetone, unless they want to quickly die !).

If people think a little bit, there is NO reason why plants would root "better" in CHC than other mixes if there were no chemicals present...

Regarding the last matter :

I have been asked to make a huge report, classified, that will be used in a court trial against several very large coconut products importers. At least in Europe, there are some regulations :

- Coconut products must be steam sterilized at 121°C. They never, never are...
- Coconut products must have a standard organic matter content. Here again, never seen
- Coconut products must have a level of sodium not exceeding a certain level. Never seen again.

I had to question most of those importers. I will not go deep into the details, but just give some "tips" :

- First, they prefer to get green coconut to make the chips. It is easier to cut than old, dark brown coconut. The green coconut chips have a lighter color than the ripe coconut. They blend it sometimes, to keep the customer happy. Try to repot a paphiopedilum in fresh lettuce leaves, and you will see what I mean... green coconut is highly unstable, and will be prone to many breakdown.

- Second, they do not respect any quality standards, except one company that is working exclusively for Dutch growers. The salts contents, organic matter content, absence of pathogens, rinsing ( yes, to add to the scam, many exporters of coconut from Sri Lanka claim now that their product is sterilized and washed with calcium nitrate, they provide fake analysis certificate...)

There were many others problems as well ( presence of a huge load of fusarium and pseudomonas in one batch, from ground contamination, etc...)

There might be serious coconut products exporters in Sri Lanka, but I have yet to see them. Some of them even went to the extent of manufacturing fake bags with a famous Dutch Brand, a RHP logo, and some ISO9001, European Standard agreements and so on.

In the tropics, people use coconut pieces from ripe coconut, and according to the countries, I think there are varous qualities depending on the coconut variety, planting soil, etc... There can be very good results then with it. Thai people have used it for quite a while ( even if they can be the Gods of the pesticides, most of the time).

My general conclusion regarding CHC products is that it is a product that is too unpredictible to use in any valuable culture. It is fine for pothos plugs or tomato hydroponics ( and even, not always...), but for orchids I wound never advise its use.

I have noticed with a big smile that the people who first promoted the CHC use in paphiopedilum potting mix now advise the use of bark based mixes. Their plants actually looks very nice in the bark mixes.

Now, to the people who claim to have wonderful plants of paphs in coconut, please post pictures of your plants that have been potted for a year in coconut. "Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder" sometimes !

I just typed in coconut chlorosis, and I got already one:

http://www.usu.edu/cpl/PDF/CoconutCoirPaper.pdf


If any more specific question, feel free to ask, I am tired of typing now...


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## goldenrose (Nov 22, 2007)

Great post! Thanks for taking the time to share with us!


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## Roy (Nov 23, 2007)

To add to this discussion, I have been told recently by some Soil Scentists that have done some experiments with Coconut and found that, like the composted Pine bark we use in Oz, extracts large amounts of Nitrogen from your fertilizer and stores it. The Nitrogen is then Not available to the plant. There is more work being done on Coconut at present and I believe a paper is to be released maybe early next year on the results.


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## TheLorax (Nov 23, 2007)

Very nice post Sanderanium. I was considering trying CHC but this comment has definitely deterred me from ever doing so-


> presence of a huge load of fusarium


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## NYEric (Nov 23, 2007)

Hmmm..what happened to my post. 
Thanx for the info.


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## Candace (Nov 23, 2007)

A very interesting read, indeed.


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## NYEric (Nov 23, 2007)

I'm now looking into a mix like what paphioboy seems to be using.


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## Brabantia (Nov 23, 2007)

I thank all the people having answered to my request and more particularly Sanderianum for his very concise informations.


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## papheteer (Nov 23, 2007)

Miss Paphiopedilum said:


> I really prefer CHC's as a media...as for the comment about them holding more water over time...think about what Bark does over time! LOL, waterlogged would be an understatement for something that more quickly turns to Mush over time. As someone else said, I repot about yearly, sometimes more with small plants, and it tends to still be holding up Really well at that point, so I throw it into the mix for my 'other' orchids...my step 'chids I guess - Phals, Cats, etc. they're dutiful 'chids and don't complain about the handmedowns. As always though, quality of bark and CHC's varies.



U mean you reuse media? I din't think that's a good idea.


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## Bolero (Nov 23, 2007)

Well I don't care, my plants that have been growing in it look great and considering I see a lot of plants when judging, my plants look as good if not better than other growers in bark. A large number of nurseries in Australia also use it quite a lot.

I understand you have done extensive research but none of my plants are stunted and they all are growing and flowering well. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder? Of course but I have an objective view of the thousands of plants I see every year when judging as well as the thousands of plants my friends own and they are being awarded.

It's an interesting article though and I will be mindful of it when my plants eventually fail as you predict. For over 2 years now however they have been growing well and flowering as well as they ever did in bark. Maybe it's my regular repotting and not waiting 3 years to repot them that does it.

I will try to remember to take pictures later today.


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## Candace (Nov 23, 2007)

> U mean you reuse media? I din't think that's a good idea.


 It's absolutely not a good idea to reuse media, unless it's sterilized leca. That's a good way to spread fungus, pests, bacteria and virus to all your plants.


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## Bolero (Nov 23, 2007)

*Chc*

Here are pictures of plants that have been growing in the media for at least 18 months and some for over 2 years.........I hope this helps.

This one has been growing in it for over 2 years.







All of these for over 2 years






18 months






Seedlings growing in it for just over 18 months






Seedlings for over 12 months






2 years
















This Pleuro for over 2 years.






Another Masdevallia for over 2 years.






So for now I will continue growing in it, this year I have converted all but a handful of plants over to the new mix and the roots and growth are sensational. I have to admit that it's a high quality product without the fine particles that has a quality check on it. It is also thoroughly rinsed by the manufacturer.

If all my plants become stunted or die then you can tell me "I told you so".

Thanks


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 23, 2007)

Well, I am currently re-evaluating my use of CHC on paphs....While multiflorals can last for years in the mix, repotting every year for other paphs seems to offset the original advantage..which was being able to avoid repotting for 2 years or so. Bob W.....do you still like CHC as much as you did a few years ago? That said....for orchids other than paphs, CHC is still by far the medium of choice for Cattleyas, Oncidiums, and just about any other epiphyte. They thrive in it, and seem to like it more than any other medium I have used...I only repot when they are totally overgrown. Not phals...they never liked it at all in my experience (for which I was insulted by Andy Easton...I guess that's a badge of honor in orchid circles)..neither do phrags or pleuros...Take care, Eric


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## Bolero (Nov 23, 2007)

Well all my pleuros and Phals grow in it. I don't doubt people have problems with it but I haven't so far. Everything is looking good.

Having said the above I also acknowledge that just because I have an opinion, it doesn't make me right but so far so good.

I have been trying to live by the premise that just because someone has an opinion, it doesn't make them right and me wrong.........and the same works in reverse. So I respect and honour every opinion in this forum even though it may be different to mine. And I will always admit when I've been proven wrong.


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## TheLorax (Nov 23, 2007)

Pseudomonas don't exactly thrill me but fusarium sends chills down my spine. Although I don't know which fusarium species was found in the one batch of CHC, I know one thing- I've always had a healthy respect for filamentous fungi because some can produce mycotoxins. 

Sanderanium, which fusarium was found if you know.


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## Bolero (Nov 23, 2007)

*Masdevallia Falcata in CHC*

Just repotting this Masdevallia today, it's been in CHC for 2 years.

It should be much healthier I know, it is stunted and doesn't have enough roots either. Must be time to go back to bark.......;-)


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## Bolero (Nov 23, 2007)

TheLorax said:


> Pseudomonas don't exactly thrill me but fusarium sends chills down my spine. Although I don't know which fusarium species was found in the one batch of CHC, I know one thing- I've always had a healthy respect for filamentous fungi because some can produce mycotoxins.
> 
> Sanderanium, which fusarium was found if you know.



I have no idea what this means I'm sorry.......what are mycotoxins exactly?

Disregard this question, I found a good link to the info here...........

http://www.botany.hawaii.edu/faculty/wong/bot135/lect11.htm


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## Roth (Nov 23, 2007)

Mmmh... Bolero, you will kill me, but for the paphs, I can see exactly what the large Dutch grower has been experiencing...

Here is your picture edited, red circles are the plants concerned.


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## Bolero (Nov 23, 2007)

Yes you've picked out the lighter coloured leaves and that's fine but they are meant to be lighter as they are different hybrids/species. They are not all the same hybrid/species plant. They are all different in age and development as well.

For instance the darker ones could be Magic Lanterns and Fumi's Delight but the one of the lighter ones is sukhahulii which is as it should be.

Can you be more specific as to why you are concerned about those specific plants? I am genuinely interested in this stuff, I don't want to lose my collection.


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## Brabantia (Nov 24, 2007)

Bolero said:


> I will try to remember to take pictures later today.


Do you use only CHC or a CHC/bark mixture like sustrate or other additives.


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## TheLorax (Nov 24, 2007)

Hey Bolero, barring all else shared by Sanderanium please delve more into exactly why fusarium is deemed such a serious threat to public health. 

Here is a link with some basics-
http://healthandenergy.com/diseases_linked_to_molds.htm

I believe you might find this article interesting being as how many of the countries importing CHC have other "crops" that are being "managed"-
http://www.drugwar.com/fusarium.shtm


> Some strains of Fusarium oxysporum produce the toxic substances fusaric acid, moniliformin , trichothecenes and fusarin C . Trichothecenes is dangerous enough to be listed as a biological weapons agent in the draft Protocol to the UN Convention on Biological and Toxic Weapons.
> 
> Fumonisins have been shown to cause a neurological disease, equine leucoencephalomalacia in horses, pulmonary edema in swine, hepatotoxic and nephrotoxic effects in other domestic animals, and carcinogenesis in laboratory animals. *In humans, mycotoxins can cause reduced growth rate, decreased resistance to infection, fatty liver syndrome and death*.14


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## Bolero (Nov 24, 2007)

Thanks guys, I will look into that further. I wasn't aware that there were such serious health concerns related to the product. And I have to say a large number of high quality Australian Nurseries use it extensively now as well.

I have one or two plants with some stunted growth but I put this down to the fact they were also stunted when in bark.

I mainly use CHC now on its own, I don't see any benefit so far of mixing it with other products but might change my way of thinking when I repot them again next year. I used to use 'sponge rock' I think you call in the mix but I don't see the point of bark.

I know a number of growers who don't mix the CHC with anything and because this particular product is so high in quality I didn't think it would be necessary either.

I guess I need to investigate the issue further.

Thanks


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 24, 2007)

I only use spongerock and other aerating media with CHC when I pot paphs. All my epiphytes only go into straight CHC...and as I said, they love it. Eric


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## Brabantia (Nov 25, 2007)

Bolero said:


> Thanks guys, I will look into that further. I wasn't aware that there were such serious health concerns related to the product. And I have to say a large number of high quality Australian Nurseries use it extensively now as well.
> 
> I have one or two plants with some stunted growth but I put this down to the fact they were also stunted when in bark.
> 
> ...



I grow cattleyas and laelias in 30%V CHC and 70%V bark + a little charcoal with great succes. I change the substrate all the two years. In fact I consider CHC as a water retensive material because I don't like sphagnum.


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## Mrs. Paph (Nov 25, 2007)

In answer to several posts, YES, I reuse media, did I say it was a GOOD idea for things you don't want to risk, NO.  Besides, if you don't have any disease, you can't spread it by reusing media. Things like Phal. hybrids are pretty robust though - I would never reuse media for Paphs or Phrags! They get all the best, the rest get some percent recycled media, and get run-through water from the slippers - and don't anyone freak out about that either, b/c they thrive well enough, and that's all I want out of 'other' orchids LOL Though I may be converting more 'others' to S/H for convenience, which coincidentally people also seems to either love or love to bash! Anyway, I do what works for me, and if a plant doesn't do well the way I'm growing it, media or otherwise, I make changes as necessary/where possible.


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## Candace (Nov 25, 2007)

> Besides, if you don't have any disease, you can't spread it by reusing media.



Everyone has disease of some kind. The key is not spreading it around. Many of the Tawaiinese phal hybrid clones on the market have virus so if you've got any of those in your collection, odds are you've got some virus. And if the media has been reused on your other phals, they would also have it. Since this thread is about CHC, I'm not going to hijack it, but it's really not good to premise bad sanitation and culture practices with "it works for me." I think it's best to teach newbies especially, the correct way to grow orchids, not the risky way.


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## TheLorax (Nov 25, 2007)

I sort of re-use all of my medium. Every last bit goes into a composter. I can't bear to toss it out knowing what I pay for the ingredients. I turn it regularly and the temps hit over 180° so that takes care of most problems. I use the compost around the yard for perennial flower beds. I feel better about not being wasteful when I put it in the composter.


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## Mrs. Paph (Nov 25, 2007)

Sorry, didn't mean to cause any confusion, I just wasn't thinking of teaching newbies at the time, was probably just rambling during a lunch or study break actually. As I said though, I only do this with the plants that aren't valuable to me, neither in cash value nor sentimental value, and of course I am selective - if it comes from a pot with a healthy slipper in it, isn't broken down, and looks good as far as I can see, then I know perfectly well that something could still go wrong, but it's a calculated risk on my part. I didn't intend to promote/recommend bad sanitation etc., just saying that since I accidentally aired 'dirty laundry' per se, that I wanted to clarify that I'm aware that it's dirty, but not cleaning it saves me some $$ on media/work hand hauling DI water, and hasn't killed any plants - yet. When it does, someone else will have already given me more 'other orchids' that they're killing, for me to save and bloom.  Anyway, back to CHC....I can't complain about them so far, but based on some of the posts I'll continue to rinse mine Alot and be careful if I see changes in quality when getting a new batch!


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## papheteer (Nov 25, 2007)

It's better safe than sorry.


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## papheteer (Nov 25, 2007)

I hope newbies don't get the idea of reusing media and run-off water is OK for ANY ORCHID. It would make trading and buying plants among hobby growers really SCARY. Not all diseases show symptoms.


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## papheteer (Nov 25, 2007)

TheLorax said:


> I sort of re-use all of my medium. Every last bit goes into a composter. I can't bear to toss it out knowing what I pay for the ingredients. I turn it regularly and the temps hit over 180° so that takes care of most problems. I use the compost around the yard for perennial flower beds. I feel better about not being wasteful when I put it in the composter.



At least you're not using it on other orchids.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 25, 2007)

Compost....hmmm.....all my bark based media either goes into the composter or is used as a mulch on my rhododendrons. CHC just gets dumped over the side of my deck. I don't compost it, as it doesn't break down in the compost. Note: stuff that breaks down readily in an orchid mix doesn't necessarily break down in compost. For those of us who've been in this hobby for many years- remember the cork chip mixes? They were so highly touted...until people actually used them and found that they rotted super fast? Well, if I toss wine corks in my compost, they never, ever, break down...so I stopped doing that. Wine corks in my vandas? They disappear ....It must be the fertilizer. Take care, Eric


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## papheteer (Nov 25, 2007)

Back to CHC. I do have some plants in CHC. I find plants that tolerate higher pH and more minerals do better in it, like my parvis. No stunting so far.


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## TheLorax (Nov 26, 2007)

Come to think of it, you're right. The wine corks never do decompose in the composter. I still find them out in flower beds from time to time along with the tops of pineapples and avocado pits. Those don't decompose either. Doesn't really matter if everything I offer to the compost gods fully decomposes or not for what I'm using it for. The big problem with composting old medium for me is the perlite in any mixes. That stuff doesn't look the greatest in my flower beds and if we get heavy rains it sort of floats to the edge of the bed and looks like snow. Then I have to bend over and try to scoop it out with my hand from where it has collected.


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## Bolero (Nov 27, 2007)

I have written an email to a number of nurseries that I deal with and they haven't noticed any stunting problems yet. Some have been using it for a long time and some for a short time. I guess time will tell.

I don't often fertilise though and they suggested that for the 2 plants that have stunting (were stunted before CHC) that perhaps I haven't fertilised enough so I thought I would increase over the rest of summer slightly the regularity with which I do it. Maybe this will fix it and maybe it won't.......will let you know the outcome.


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## goldenrose (Nov 27, 2007)

TheLorax said:


> The wine corks never do decompose in the composter


I've known of some that grow vanda alliance & use them exclusively as the media!


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## Roth (Nov 27, 2007)

Bolero said:


> I have written an email to a number of nurseries that I deal with and they haven't noticed any stunting problems yet. Some have been using it for a long time and some for a short time. I guess time will tell.
> 
> I don't often fertilise though and they suggested that for the 2 plants that have stunting (were stunted before CHC) that perhaps I haven't fertilised enough so I thought I would increase over the rest of summer slightly the regularity with which I do it. Maybe this will fix it and maybe it won't.......will let you know the outcome.



It is unlikely to solve the problem actually. Do they have picture of their growing area out of curiosity, especially for paphiopedilum ? 

I remember those following pictures posted by a CHC promoter. To me the plants looks at least unhealthy...

http://merklesorchids.com/1Images/1JPEGS/paphorchilla.jpg

Note the dehydrated, dull, yellowish looking leaves ( Flowering is very nice, but has nothing to do with the plant healthiness)

http://merklesorchids.com/1Images/10JPEGS/paph_purpuratum.jpg

The chlorosis ( I will post pictures later of my purpuratums, very dark green leaves in high light). To many people some years ago those two plants looked 'wonderfully grown', whereas they are not at all.


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## Bolero (Nov 27, 2007)

I'm not sure they have pictures of their growing areas. I honestly don't think many of mine have an issue with the stuff (maybe one or two do though).

I will keep an eye on them and continue doing my research on it. Who knows, next time I repot I will change to something else but it will need to be better than bark for my growing conditions.


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## Ed M (Nov 28, 2007)

Sanderianum said:


> It is unlikely to solve the problem actually. Do they have picture of their growing area out of curiosity, especially for paphiopedilum ?
> 
> I remember those following pictures posted by a CHC promoter. To me the plants looks at least unhealthy...
> 
> ...



Hi. Actually, those are very old photographs on my website and they pre-date my use of CHC potting media. Those plants in the photos were potted in a fir bark mix at the time. In addition, the "chlorosis" and dryness in the leaves is not actual but rather an artifact of my poor photographic and uploading skills at that time. These plants are currently very healthy and happy. However, I did have some problems starting about two years ago when I over-applied Physan. I found that repotting of the affected plants into fresh mix turned them right around.  I currently use a mix of CHC, charcoal, and spongerock...heavy on the charcoal. I think its 7 parts CHC, 3 parts charcoal, 1 part spongerock.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Nov 29, 2007)

This thread has gotten me inspecting my paphs very carefully....and I'm definitely noticing some patterns. Most paphs do fine in CHC....particularly parvi's and most of the multiflorals, insigne and its relatives do fine as do the complex paphs...but....the Maudiae types are the ones that are bleaching. Not only that, but their hybrids do just as badly, even when crossed with parents that love CHC...philipinense thrives in CHC even with no repotting (blooming is another story though....) as do its hybrids...but the crosses with mastersianum and Maudiae hybrids tend to bleach. lowii doesn't seem to appreciate CHC, and haynaldianum doesn't grow as well as it did in bark...although hybrids aren't affected in the same way as Maudiae hybrids. So...I'm gradually going to repot many of my paphs...the ones that are fine in CHC will stay there, the others will be shifted into bark...yet again....Take care, Eric


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## goldenrose (Nov 30, 2007)

Ed M your animated avatar is darling!


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## NYEric (Nov 30, 2007)

Repot!??


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Dec 3, 2007)

OK...yesterday I did a load of repotting. My Maudiae types had lousy roots in CHC...bottom roots were dead, in many cases all were dead, but in most there were live roots at the top. These were all repotted into bark. The cochlo's I repotted had good roots, growing normally, so I potted them back into CHC. I wonder if its a pH issue. Through all my years of bark growing, I got into the habit of adding Pro-Tekt to raise pH in my fertilizer....I add only a trace since I switched to MSU, but it may be just too basic for the barbata paphs in CHC....Take care, Eric


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## Scooby5757 (Dec 6, 2007)

What about mixing CHC into a bark mix? I swear I just read this whole post, but I don't remember reading it. I grow underlights and watering isnt an easy task (I imagine NYEric has some idea what Im talking about) and I appreciate how the CHC holds more moisture than the bark, because for years of reading "Don't over water" I was/maybe still am an _under-waterer._ I know sphag as a addition might do the same thing, but it breaks down fast and I can't stand how messy it can be. Does using, lets say, 3 parts bark to 1 part CHC help diffuse the problem enough.

On a side note - Crap, now i gotta go buy bark. I thought i was all cool and moving into the 21st century with my CHC.


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## Corbin (Dec 6, 2007)

Eric Muehlbauer said:


> ...but....the Maudiae types are the ones that are bleaching. Take care, Eric



This is interesting. This past summer after my Maudiae orchids finished blooming I potted one of them in CHC. Within a couple months the new growth started becoming very pale (as in cream colored) and the leaves of the new growth started twisting. When I became convinced it was the CHC I re-potted in bark. The new leaves are still twisted but the color is very slowly returning to the proper color. The one that I did not put in CHC has a spike that is about 4" tall while the one that was in CHC has a sheath that is just barely discernible down among the leaves. 

I will point out that they are two different Maudiae types but last year they bloomed within a week of one another.


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## Brabantia (Dec 10, 2007)

Scooby5757 said:


> What about mixing CHC into a bark mix? I swear I just read this whole post, but I don't remember reading it. I grow underlights and watering isnt an easy task (I imagine NYEric has some idea what Im talking about) and I appreciate how the CHC holds more moisture than the bark, because for years of reading "Don't over water" I was/maybe still am an _under-waterer._ I know sphag as a addition might do the same thing, but it breaks down fast and I can't stand how messy it can be. Does using, lets say, 3 parts bark to 1 part CHC help diffuse the problem enough.
> 
> On a side note - Crap, now i gotta go buy bark. I thought i was all cool and moving into the 21st century with my CHC.


I use a mix 50/50 bark CHC and a little charcoal to grow all my paphs and phrags. I sprinkel them two times per week in spring and one time in winter. I prefer also CHC versus sphagnum because CHC are more rigid.


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## NYEric (Dec 10, 2007)

I went away from bark mix after reading about problems when the mix breaks down. Now I'm going to start adding a little to the mix, the problem is which type of bark? Also is Reptibark suitable? I'm sure there are some chemicals added to it.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Dec 10, 2007)

Reptibark is the same bark sold for orchids...just more expensive. I look for Sequoia brand bark, rather than Rexius. I've had horrible experiences with Rexius, but that was many years ago...maybe now they've fixed it. Take care, Eric


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