# kovachii culture; S/H, pH, and calcium?



## ssknapp777 (Jul 10, 2008)

Hello All,

I’m a new member and I had questions concerning Phrag. Kovachii, S/H and PrimeAgra. I emailed Lance a few questions (OK, actually many questions) privately since it looked like he has posted a lot about kovachii and grows his in PA. He thought they were good questions and asked me to post them so when he replies everyone can see. This will be my first public post anywhere so I hope I do this correctly. If anyone else has anything to add/suggest/recommend please feel free.

Sincerely,

Shayne 

____

OK, I noticed that your newer pictures have the crushed oyster shells on the top whereas your older pictures did not. Are your older kovachii from 06 still alive? Did you add oyster shells to them also? Or do you not need to after they reach a certain size?

I emailed Ray and he thought there might be enough calcium in the MSU Pure water formula but wasn't sure. Do you add the oyster shells for additional calcium or to raise the pH? If it is for calcium can you just add a calcium supplement?

That brings me to my biggest question that I hope you can answer. I've searched but can't find anything specific about pH of water and fertilizer solution and PrimeAgra. I can find the pH of the soil/medium kovachii naturally grows in (7.9), and I can find the pH of the rain water kovachii naturally gets (6-6.5). However, I don't know how to apply that to PrimeAgra. I understand the soil/medium will raise the pH of the water and I know kovachii likes more alkaline conditions whereas most other orchids need a slightly acidic environment to absorb nutrients. 

I'm assuming that PrimeAgra will not adjust the pH up or down so we can limit/focus just on our water fertilizer mix pH. Since I've read kovachii likes slightly alkaline conditions could I/do you adjust the pH between 7-7.9? But then if so does this restrict the plant in being able to take in needed nutrients?

My thinking is also that maybe in its natural habitat the alkaline soil balances the acid in the water and the sum is slightly acidic and it can still take in nutrients? Maybe the reason why people are adding oyster/calcium chips and lime is to overcome the acidity of the medium and then the fertilizer/water solution they are adding.

It seems like there are so many possible variables and since you have much more experience with kovachii in S/H maybe you have figured out all this pH stuff. I did read that someone asked you about this but you had (I think) left your pH meter in Peru and had not been testing pH. I also read that you were just using the MSU at 50 ppm Nitrogen and then going to 100 ppm when they got a bit bigger. However my own testing of MSU and pH is that even the pure formula drops the pH down to the 5/6 pH range, of course this is using 125 ppm nitrogen. 

Well, I hope this makes some sense, if it doesn't please ask for clarification. I guess to sum it up have you found the best adjusted pH value for your water and MSU RO formula mix that kovachii likes? Do you have to supplement calcium chips/oyster shells to the mix for older kovachii plants? If so is there a more elegant way/amount of adding calcium? Am I missing the point entirely concerning oyster shells and they are needed for another reason entirely.


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## NYEric (Jul 10, 2008)

Welcome from NYC. Mr. Norton, Orchidview, says Pk needs the calcium but its' hybrids don't need it as much. He also adds lime pellets but he says he's putting those on most phrags.


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## biothanasis (Jul 10, 2008)

Welcome from Greece...


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## Corbin (Jul 10, 2008)

Welcome from Atlanta.


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## SlipperFan (Jul 10, 2008)

Welcome, Shayne. Good questions.


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## Candace (Jul 10, 2008)

Sorry, although I grow 99% of my plants in s/h I don't grow kovachii or any of its hybrids...yet.


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## Rick (Jul 10, 2008)

These days I'm really questioning the whole notion that the calcareous species (which includes many paph species too) have a special calcium need, but rather a special phosphorus need.

As I mentioned in a previous thread (probably several threads actually) limestone typically carries a fairly high stable phosphate level. Much higher than typical rain forrest soils and leaf litters. Also the mobility of phosphorus is much better in the neutral to slightly alkaline pH ranges than at lower pH's . P is also tied up easily by iron and aluminum, and once again at the lower pH levels. I read a paper about the productivity of crops grown in tropical soils, and it was enhanced by the addition of lime. As it turned out it wasn't directly due to calcium uptake by plants, but the pH increase unlocked the phosphorus tied up by iron and aluminum, and the calcium helped stabilize the phosphorus and facilitate it into the plants.

I also found several papers where oyster shell is able to suck up lots of phosphorus. I use it as a potting mix supplement to, and speculate that the phosphorus of the MSU fert mix (which has pretty low P compared to standard "balanced" fetilizers) is sucked up by oyster shell and the plants utilize the oyster shell as a long term source of P as the oyster shell slowly dissolves.

My multifloral paphs (which are mostly calcareous species too) really do good for me.

I would look into the use of bone meal rather than lime or oyster shell. I'm seeing lots of great growth since I top dressed allot of plants with it at the beginning of the growing season this year. Bone meal increases pH, but not as much as lime or oyster shell. It also adds allot of P along with the calcium.

I don't have kovachii, but I do have fisheri, which is another calcareous growing phrag. And so far they seem to be enjoying the strategy.


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## ssknapp777 (Jul 11, 2008)

Thanks everyone for the warm greetings and welcomes!! Thanks also to Rick for the information on phosphorus. Ah, another thing to consider. Rick, what do you grow your fisheri in? Are they in S/H and Primeagra (PA)? Do you have a specific range for the pH of the water and fertilizer mix for calcareous species? 

Since the PA should be inert and so I don't interfere with the wicking action of the PA, I'd like to attempt to add all needed nutrients of my orchids by liquid supplements. I'm not sure if this is possible but this is what I have in mind. Does anyone think this is possible? Or is it a bad idea?

Shayne


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## Rick (Jul 12, 2008)

ssknapp777 said:


> Thanks everyone for the warm greetings and welcomes!! Thanks also to Rick for the information on phosphorus. Ah, another thing to consider. Rick, what do you grow your fisheri in? Are they in S/H and Primeagra (PA)? Do you have a specific range for the pH of the water and fertilizer mix for calcareous species?
> 
> Since the PA should be inert and so I don't interfere with the wicking action of the PA, I'd like to attempt to add all needed nutrients of my orchids by liquid supplements. I'm not sure if this is possible but this is what I have in mind. Does anyone think this is possible? Or is it a bad idea?
> 
> Shayne



A newer one (growing for a few months now) is in a bark mix w/oyster shell top dressing. One I had for year + and beat up, I put into hydroton (with some oyster shell mixed in) a few months ago. It seems to be recovering with a new growth and leaves. The newer one is spiking now too. Even though its in a bark mix, I opened up the pot with more holes and keep it in a shallow tray of water.

I use RO for primary irrigation which has no buffering capacity, but with all the oyster shell in various potting mixes the pH of water in the catch pan should be about 7.0. I run the pH of my fertilizer mix up to around 6-6.5 with a dash of Protekt (KOH). The pH of the phosphorus boost I add intermittently to irrigation and misting water is about 6, but this is diluted way down when I use it.


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## cnycharles (Jul 12, 2008)

was happy to see this thread since i'll be inheriting some k hybrids from recent trades. was doing dishes and the little light bulb popped on again; I remember at work having a conversation with one of the other growers about the pH of the water holding tanks that are used for floor/bench flooding/watering; they are concrete blocks and they said that the pH of the water held in these tanks climbs right along (they are basically lined with limestone from mortar). was wondering if concrete chips could be added a few here and there in pots or s/h culture to help keep the pH higher? water is definitely being raised in pH as it stands in the tanks.....


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## Rick (Jul 12, 2008)

cnycharles said:


> was happy to see this thread since i'll be inheriting some k hybrids from recent trades. was doing dishes and the little light bulb popped on again; I remember at work having a conversation with one of the other growers about the pH of the water holding tanks that are used for floor/bench flooding/watering; they are concrete blocks and they said that the pH of the water held in these tanks climbs right along (they are basically lined with limestone from mortar). was wondering if concrete chips could be added a few here and there in pots or s/h culture to help keep the pH higher? water is definitely being raised in pH as it stands in the tanks.....



Very weathered concrete may be fine, but some concretes have additives with them, and sometimes the lime content is really high. I'd stick with something more tried and true. I'd take a good look at bone meal first.

I do use allot of oyster shell, but I also live in the land of limestone down here in TN, and I also have quite a few pots of multifloral paphs with limestone chips in the bottom of the pots.


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## NYEric (Jul 12, 2008)

10 years as a concrete inspector tells me concrete chips are a no-no!


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## Ray (Jul 13, 2008)

A very interesting thread.

I have read that the phosphorus demand of plants is actually quite low, and I know that was the reasoning behind the MSU formula's low level - it is intended for continuous feeding, after all - but just how low is it?

Rick's theory that oyster shell "captures" it and then the plants use the P and Ca as the shell bits dissolve would suggest to me that it is VERY low, as I imagine the oyster shell dissolves at a very slow rate.

Has anyone actually put oyster shell in pure water and measured the concentration of dissolved species as a function of time?

As an aside, I have some PK x besseae plants, some in S/H, some in a bark mix, both getting about 100-125 ppm N of the MSU RO formula at a pH of 5.8-5.9, and they are doing quite well.


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## Rick (Jul 13, 2008)

Ray said:


> A very interesting thread.
> 
> I have read that the phosphorus demand of plants is actually quite low, and I know that was the reasoning behind the MSU formula's low level - it is intended for continuous feeding, after all - but just how low is it?
> 
> ...



Based on the amount of P showing up in leaf digestion studies, the requirement for P is lower than for N and K is lower (rather than using the absolute term low), and yes the MSU mix is based on those ratios. 

But going through the soil/ag and eco literature, this may be more of an adaptation to living in a chemical environment where P is limited compared to N and K. It also looks like the role of mycorrhizae fungi and bacteria in the rhizosphere become even more critical as soil pH drops below 5.5 - 6.0

Under SH conditions, using the MSU mix P is mostly likely not limited since the "soil" is virtually inert/neutral, and there is always a sump of nutrient rich water in the bottom of the pot to wick up from.

The P deficiencies are more likely to show up in bark mixes, especially as they break down, and become even more acidic. In these cases P enters the system intermittently (through a weekly feeding), and has the potential to get tied up by the soil conditions.

I did conduct one experiment (not quantified) where I placed about a tablespoon of oyster shell into RO water (I think about a liter), shaking intermittently the pH and hardness (indirect measures of Ca and Mg concentration) where very high in roughly twelve hours. I posted this result on a thread about oyster shell a couple of years ago so I can't remember the numbers. At the time I wasn't aware of the P absorption capacity of oyster shell so I didn't try soaking oyster shell in dilute phosphoric acid to try that idea out. But it's apparent that oyster shell can give up Ca at a pretty decent rate in acidic conditions, and soil microbes would facilitate this even more. Actually there are lots of ag papers that show how oyster shell and lime boost soil pH, and a paper published in AOS on oyster shell addition in bark media boosted soil pH. We debated that paper on this forum (that may be where I did the oyster shell/RO water trick). The fast P adsorption phenomena by oyster shell is well documented (Google search if you like). So I don't think its too far fetched to put the two ideas together that oyster shell could be a sump for P in a standard bark mix the same as the sump in a SH system works.

On a new side note/theory. Since I've been messing around with increased P I've noticed a decline in blue-green algae in my SH style systems and algae covering up mosses. The mosses are doing much better, and losing the overgrowth of blue-green slime.


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## Rick (Jul 13, 2008)

In the category "there's more than 1 way to shin a cat".

Refer to Marilyn LeDoux's article on growing phrags in OD, 2003.

She advocates the use of a fertilizer "such as Dyna-Gro" (7-9-5 versus MSU 15-5-15), and a bark mix formula that includes bone meal (another big P boost).

I don't think anyone could argue that Marilyn knows how to grow phrags.

Also in review of Sanderianum's 5/08 thread on paph nutrition he advocates the use of a 10-52-10 fertilizer, but also states that a source of "carbonate (such as calcium carbonate)" is necessary in the potting mix. Since oyster shell is primarily CaCO3 this alludes to my "theory" that oyster shell acts as sink for P in bark or CHC based mixes.

The more I read keeps pointing to how easy it is to maintain a good N and K budget, but P balance is real easy to screw up. 


Recently there was some excitement about some type of SH media that caused allot of growth problems. If I'm not mistaken most SH medias are clay based, and clay is primarily formed of Al and Fe silicates. Al and Fe are general P binders, and a product called activated aluminum is especially effective at binding P. Is it possible that this product had "activated" Al in it, and essentially caused a nutrient imbalance??


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## Rick (Jul 13, 2008)

Ray said:


> A very interesting thread.
> 
> I have read that the phosphorus demand of plants is actually quite low, and I know that was the reasoning behind the MSU formula's low level - it is intended for continuous feeding, after all - but just how low is it?



shoot. I was trying to upload a link to a Springer article that I saved the abstract from. Try www.springerlink.com/content/p5w1u6277832152x/

It's just the abstract, but the gist is P leaf contents of species studied (tropical plants in 2 different serpentine areas) varied on the basis of nutrient restriction rather than physiological need, while K, Mg, and Ca, content were based on physiological need rather than soil availability.

So the premise that P in the MSU formula (derived from leaf content analysis of a limited number of orchids) is the correct and physiological need based level of P for all orchids is strongly challenged by this article.

But I don't think this is that new of a debate.


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## Ray (Jul 13, 2008)

Is P translocatable between leaf cells, and is it "dumpable" by a plant? And I suppose that f the answer to either is 'yes", then the rate might be important, too.

Rhetorical questions, but I wonder if the percentages in leaf analyses reflect the current nutrient flux are are just an accumulation/time lag - or as you said earlier, an adaptation for "lean times".


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## Rick (Jul 13, 2008)

Ray said:


> Is P translocatable between leaf cells, and is it "dumpable" by a plant? And I suppose that f the answer to either is 'yes", then the rate might be important, too.
> 
> Rhetorical questions, but I wonder if the percentages in leaf analyses reflect the current nutrient flux are are just an accumulation/time lag - or as you said earlier, an adaptation for "lean times".



That may be a critical question Ray. I'm not sure how much P is incorporated into cell "structures" versus its use in cell metabolism. My current knowledge of P is that it is primarily used for metabolic function (the ATP pathways). That could imply that it's content is quite variable given a plants energetic state. An analogy may be like gasoline to a car. Is the plant idling, accelerating? Under conditions of acceleration (growing, blooming, rooting, fighting disease), the gas needs to be there to keep from running lean and stumbling. If the plants just idling it takes hardly any gas.


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## ssknapp777 (Jul 14, 2008)

This has turned into a very good discussion. Thanks everyone. 

This P vs. Ca and what function the oyster shells are actually performing is exactly what I hoped to find out from people. I have learned it might not just be Ca but maybe additional P is needed. It almost seems like we need to experiment a bit. Start with a neutral media (PA) and a pure water source (RO, distilled, clean rainwater), and fertilizer (lets go with MSU RO). Adjust pH to between 7-7.7, (or is this too high for kovachii?). This could be our baseline. Then we would just need to change the variables in a controlled way. Is it Ca? We could have a pure Ca supplement (add 1 ml for x duration) note results, we may have to increase or decrease amount of Ca in ml over time. Go back to our baseline, instead of adding/adjusting a pure Ca supplement add a P only supplement. Monitor plant. Although there might be too many other variables e.g. more light one day or over a period of time than another. I guess it would also be too time intensive. But it seems like you sure could tailor to exactly what the plant needed over time with lots of experimenting.

It seems like others are doing this for lights and hydroponics. When I was researching LED grow lights I found a guy that was reviewing these lights you could buy. The produced lights already moved away from a full white spectrum and was just red and blue. However, the reviewer noted that growth vs. blooming of plants needed different ratios of blue to red LEDS. So now he & others are building their own lights so blue LEDs are on a different circuit than the red LEDS and he can adjust the intensity of the blue vs. the red depending on the stage of growth the plant is in. All very interesting and similar to us adjusting and fine tuning a specific chemical need of orchids. 

Shayne


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## Rick (Jul 14, 2008)

Not exactly sure if I understand where you are heading with this one Shayne. Is your basic question to optimize growth of PK under semi hydro or more general conditions? I think there are multiple ways to get PK to grow well, and there are a ton more variables to worry about besides Ca an P balance.

I am a much stronger proponent of providing proper humidity/airflow/light and temp regimes before fine tuning with potting mixes and fertilizers.

Also I don't know who has a few dozen spare PK to set up in controlled experiments.

But there is an Ag experiment with a link access in one of Sanderianum's posts (the thread is "CHC or not to CHC" I think) which may give you some good ideas.
Ca (from gypsum, CaSO4) was used as a Ca source in some of these experiments. There is no practical source of elemental Ca. Many pure elemental forms of light metals are extremely unstable (often explosive). So you will most likely need to content yourself with either the SO4, NO3, Cl, or Phosphate forms of Ca.

I'm wondering if it might be a good exercise to set up two groups. One with standard SH with PA, and one with PA washed in phosphoric acid.


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## ssknapp777 (Jul 14, 2008)

Rick, I'm sorry I've confused the matter concerning my previous post. It was my understanding that you believed the function the oyster shells provided was providing a phosphorus need by PK and calcium wasn't as important. So I was simply trying to design an experiment that I thought could determine what was more important to PK, calcium or phosphorus. I was trying to limit to a single variable, that being calcium or phosphorus, and keep the others the same. The light example was just an analogy. If you switch from one brand of white light to another and there is an improvement in plant growth, you may not know what change in what spectrum actually made a difference in plant growth. Only by limiting and then adjusting known variables can you define what is improving growing conditions.

My basic question concerns the growth of PK in S/H. Specifically with what I asked in my original post at the beginning of the thread. 

I agree with what you said about humidity/airflow/light and temperature. Those however I know what people have recommended and am following. It is transferring kovachii from a bark oyster chip lime mix to a S/H with PrimeAgra medium; without adding the oyster chips or lime which would restrict air to the roots and the wicking ability of the PrimeAgra.

I hope this clarifies things a bit.

Shayne


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## Rick (Jul 15, 2008)

ssknapp777 said:


> design an experiment that I thought could determine what was more important to PK, calcium or phosphorus. I was trying to limit to a single variable, that being calcium or phosphorus, and keep the others the same.
> My basic question concerns the growth of PK in S/H. Specifically with what I asked in my original post at the beginning of the thread.
> 
> Shayne



With those conditions in mind..... Maybe try this:

3 groups.

Group 1 PA no special prep, standard setup (control)
Group 2 PA washed in phosphoric acid. MSU plus a phosphous amendment(Maybe potassium phosphate).
Group 3 PA washed in strong lime (CaOH) solution. MSU plus a bit of CaCl2.

After the washes the PA will need to be rinsed to get them close to neutral pH again.

For statistical significance you probably need 6 or more plants in each group.

pH should be around 7 for all groups. ( I looked up the Harold Koopowitz article in OD, and the soil pH around the roots of PK was high 6's to low 7's).

Do you have the 18 some odd PK to trial?


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## ssknapp777 (Jul 16, 2008)

Rick,

That does look like a good experiment. However, I don't have 18 PKs so I guess it won't be me that will be running the experiment. I only have one and I've only had it about 4 weeks. From searching this thread it looks like Lance has given a lot of information concerning PK and S/H and I had hoped he would have chimed in with some information but he must be busy. 

I've been keeping my pH in the 7s and it seems to be taking to the PA pretty good so far. I used a rooting hormone when first transfering to S/H with no MSU. Every week I water it I decrease the rooting hormone by half and increase the amount of MSU by doubling it. I started adding MSU the second week at 1/8 teaspoon. I'm recording the TDS and pH and I think I will hang out at just under 300 tds total and keep the pH in the 7s. 

So far it seems to be doing well and growing each week so maybe I don't need to worry about the oyster shell and what it is doing at all. But I want to know what to do if things start to go downhill. Especially if it happens quickly.

Shayne


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## Candace (Jul 16, 2008)

Shayne, Lance lives part-time in Peru and is sometimes unavailable. He may be there now. It may be better to PM or e-mail him.


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## ssknapp777 (Jul 16, 2008)

Thanks Candace that is good to know. I did email him first with the questions privately and then again letting him know I started this thread as he suggested. So I will just wait until he has time to answer. He did say in his first email the oyster shell serves several purposes and promotes better growth in kovachii for several possible reasons. He also said to water the plants daily in leca at least until they have grown some new roots. I think he wanted to go into greater detail in the forum section so others could be helped by the information.

Shayne


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## gonewild (Jul 21, 2008)

I'm here now. Sorry for not responding sooner. I will read through the posts soon and make some comments and suggestions.


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## gonewild (Aug 17, 2008)

Sorry for the long delay with answers, I will try to catch up...



ssknapp777 said:


> Hello All,
> OK, I noticed that your newer pictures have the crushed oyster shells on the top whereas your older pictures did not. Are your older kovachii from 06 still alive? Did you add oyster shells to them also? Or do you not need to after they reach a certain size?



Yes all of my kovachiis are still alive.
I have added oyster shell or crushed limestone to all kovachii. 
I think kovachii will benefit from limestone presence through all stages of growth. I will explain later on.



> I emailed Ray and he thought there might be enough calcium in the MSU Pure water formula but wasn't sure. Do you add the oyster shells for additional calcium or to raise the pH? If it is for calcium can you just add a calcium supplement?



I added oyster shells to both add calcium and raise the pH. Also top dressing restricted the air flow through the media. Contrary to normal s/h practice this is what I wanted to do. The leca is to coarse for small seedlings unless they are top watered frequently or maintained in a very high humidity. With new seedlings the new roots come from the base of the plant which sits on top of the leca pebbles. The very surface of the coarse leca stays too dry to support a perfect environment for these delicate new emerging roots. By top dressing with oyster shell the moisture content of the media surface is increased and more humidity is maintained in the upper zone of the pot. This creates a better environment for the new "baby" roots.

I do not think the added Calcium from the oyster shell dissolving plays much of a role with kovachii. I did trials using additional Calcium Nitrate and the results were not dramatic. However kovachii does want more Calcium than MSU fertilizer provides.



> That brings me to my biggest question that I hope you can answer. I've searched but can't find anything specific about pH of water and fertilizer solution and PrimeAgra. I can find the pH of the soil/medium kovachii naturally grows in (7.9), and I can find the pH of the rain water kovachii naturally gets (6-6.5). However, I don't know how to apply that to PrimeAgra. I understand the soil/medium will raise the pH of the water and I know kovachii likes more alkaline conditions whereas most other orchids need a slightly acidic environment to absorb nutrients.



Alfredo Manrique in Lima was kind enough to show me a bag of freshly collected soil from the root zone of a wild kovachii. The soil consisted of chunks of limestone and clay. NOT MOSS. The pH of the soil will be high. The flowing water will be direct rain water and the pH will be near neutral. So much rain falls in the habitat that the water does not have much chance to saturate with salts or minerals before it passed through the root zone. The roots need to be wet and the soil is not well aerated at all.



> I'm assuming that PrimeAgra will not adjust the pH up or down so we can limit/focus just on our water fertilizer mix pH. Since I've read kovachii likes slightly alkaline conditions could I/do you adjust the pH between 7-7.9? But then if so does this restrict the plant in being able to take in needed nutrients?



Do not assume PrimeAgra will not effect the pH. In all my sampling, the pH of PrimeAgra was constantly dropping low.
With my kovachii I have not seen pH to be super critical although higher is better than lower so I would not say kovachii must have an alkaline media.
Rather than trying to adjust the pH up I would (I did) add limestone to the media. Mix crushed limestone or oyster shell throughout the pot, not just as a top dressing. 



> My thinking is also that maybe in its natural habitat the alkaline soil balances the acid in the water and the sum is slightly acidic and it can still take in nutrients? Maybe the reason why people are adding oyster/calcium chips and lime is to overcome the acidity of the medium and then the fertilizer/water solution they are adding.



I think the roots of kovachii want to be in direct contact with wet limestone. There is likely a benefit for the root hairs to actually touch the mineral that goes beyond simple pH.



> It seems like there are so many possible variables and since you have much more experience with kovachii in S/H maybe you have figured out all this pH stuff. I did read that someone asked you about this but you had (I think) left your pH meter in Peru and had not been testing pH.



I have since retrieved my pH meter. Normal low pH will not kill kovachii. High pH will not make kovachii grow faster. Don't get to preoccupied with pH, just keep it from dropping too low.



> I also read that you were just using the MSU at 50 ppm Nitrogen and then going to 100 ppm when they got a bit bigger. However my own testing of MSU and pH is that even the pure formula drops the pH down to the 5/6 pH range, of course this is using 125 ppm nitrogen.



This is the problem with trying to replicate Nature. How to maintain a high media pH while applying an acidic fertilizer. There is no simple answer. I do not think you can even come close with true s/h culture. You need to constantly refresh the media with irrigation water. By washing the media with the nutrient solution frequently you will keep the pH from falling lower. But the you will be hydroponic and not simi hydroponic. But who cares what you call it.



> Well, I hope this makes some sense, if it doesn't please ask for clarification. I guess to sum it up have you found the best adjusted pH value for your water and MSU RO formula mix that kovachii likes? Do you have to supplement calcium chips/oyster shells to the mix for older kovachii plants? If so is there a more elegant way/amount of adding calcium? Am I missing the point entirely concerning oyster shells and they are needed for another reason entirely.



Your questions make sense.
Mix limestone into your mix, this will in effect adjust your pH.
Add Calcium with periodic irrigations of Calcium Nitrate if you want to be elegant.
Water often and do not rely on wicking of the leca. 
Keep the humidity of the soil surface high (wet).

Any other questions?

P.kovachii grows well in leca especially fresh out of the flask.
For several reasons I am now growing all my kovachii in a more traditional mix.
I'll try to get some current photos posted, a few plants are on their 3rd growth but they all grow slowly compared to hybrids.


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## Kyle (Aug 17, 2008)

gonewild said:


> For several reasons I am now growing all my kovachii in a more traditional mix.
> I'll try to get some current photos posted, a few plants are on their 3rd growth but they all grow slowly compared to hybrids.



Care to share the reasons? And, please some updated photos!

Kyle


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## ssknapp777 (Aug 19, 2008)

Thanks Lance!!!

That answers pretty much all my questions. My one kovachii is doing well. Mine was bigger than just out of flask. I had four roots at least 2-3 inches long and three leaves, leaf span of 6-7 inches. It's done really well so far with the newest leaf growing at least 3/4 of an inch, if not more, in the last two months. I'm not sure if that's fast or slow but it seems to be slowing down over the last few weeks. I water once a week and spray the top surface with water once a day, five to six times a week. I've been raising the pH of the fertilizer mixture with pH up to somewhere in the 7.x range after having added 1/2 tsp of MSU fertilizer with a total TDS of 342-400 range when added to the kovachii. 

Thanks for the suggestion of calcium and calcium nitrate. I have calcium nitrate, how do you add calcium only and how much if using MSU? Is there a liquid supplement? After adding these two I should have most of the cultural requirements met. I hope!

I would also love to see pictures of your kovachii!


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## Phrag-Plus (Aug 19, 2008)

Interesting, but is in it a little bit complicated.... I’m growing my Pk without any problems in the same way I’m growing all others. I'musing my usual mix of Chilean sphagnum moss with perlite, bark an a bit a charcoal. They are thriving and growing very nicely. Some of them did already get very nice size and are showing some new growths.


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## ssknapp777 (Aug 19, 2008)

Jean-Pierre,

WOW!! That one looks great. Maybe your right?!? I however, switched over to S/H and PA about a year ago. I have all my orchids in PA except a Disa, Dracula Vampira, and three others that are mounted. I still have extra PA left so for me it's a matter of not wanting to buy and go back to another medium. So you are correct I am making things more complicated because I'm trying to replicate your success in a S/H culture and medium.

How old are your PK, especially the one pictured? Did you start with a flask?

Shayne


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## Phrag-Plus (Aug 20, 2008)

Hi Shayne,
I did try S/H culture for some of my Phrags (mature plants and seedlings) and did try it for my Pk seedling too. I’m growing exclusively Phrags and water them 2 or 3 times a week. For that reason and with my environmental condition, except the fact than I was seing the roots systhems it makes no difference between S/H and growing them in moss. After a year and a half I return all my plants in moss. Sorry, I don’t understand what PA mean? 

Yes I’ve got some flasks from Peruflora and that picture was taken last spring they are out of flask since 2 years now. Lots of them are showing a new growth, and one of them is showing me 4 new growths (2 big and 2 small one.)....
Hope it will flower within a year???


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## Ray (Aug 20, 2008)

...an editorial comment:

*THIS* thread is what these forums are all about!!! No sustaining of misinformation, but the sharing of observation and science!

Thanks to all who have participated.


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## cnycharles (Aug 20, 2008)

ssknapp777 said:


> Thanks Lance!!!
> 
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion of calcium and calcium nitrate. I have calcium nitrate, how do you add calcium only and how much if using MSU? Is there a liquid supplement? After adding these two I should have most of the cultural requirements met. I hope!



if you want to just add calcium to your fertilizer mix or with clear water, you can use calcium nitrate which is often labeled as 15.5-0-0 or just 15-0-0. You mix up in water just like any other fertilizer. 

I did some math a few years back and determined that to get 100 ppm of calcium nitrate (which math I did was to get 100 ppm of nitrogen, not calcium) I would add 0.086 oz/gal or 0.52 teaspoons per gallon of water. I weighed tablespoons and teaspoons and then later found a dry conversion on a chart somewhere using a certain weight for a tablespoon of fertilizer and other chemicals like insecticides and fungicides; it was pretty close all around for measuring at small scale (I use a two-gallon spray tank at home or a five-gallon bucket for drenching). 200 ppm was double at 0.172 oz/gal or 1.04 tsp/gal. If you aren't sure, you can just measure with a tds meter to see how much the ppm is raised by adding a certain amount of the calcium nitrate (or other fertilizer).

If you were going to use msu but wanted to add some calcium nitrate, then use slightly less msu and add a bit of calcium nitrate; either that or just alternate waterings with your regular fertilizer and the calcium.

hope this helps,
charles


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## Wendy (Aug 21, 2008)

I have two Pk seedlings. One is doing well and is on it's second growth. The other has sat in 'suspended animation since I got it. Both are grown the same so I have no idea why one is doing fantastic and one isn't. They are potted in small coconut, perlite and treefern fibre with limestone added. Both are grown intermediate, phal light and kept wet. Here are a couple photos. The big one has great roots while the small one only has 'nubs'. (the lower leaf on the big one looks yellowish but it's not)


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## SlipperKing (Aug 21, 2008)

Wendy said:


> I have two Pk seedlings. One is doing well and is on it's second growth. The other has sat in 'suspended animation since I got it. Both are grown the same so I have no idea why one is doing fantastic and one isn't. They are potted in small coconut, perlite and treefern fibre with limestone added. Both are grown intermediate, phal light and kept wet. Here are a couple photos. The big one has great roots while the small one only has 'nubs'. (the lower leaf on the big one looks yellowish but it's not)


Wendy, the small one is in a clay pot, so they're not grown the same maybe an aircone is in order?


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## Wendy (Aug 21, 2008)

It was in an aircone...I switched to clay in hopes that it might like that. Sorry; I should have put that in my first post.


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## ssknapp777 (Aug 22, 2008)

To Jean-Pierre -- Yes, I hope you do get a flower soon. That would be cool. PA is just an abbreviation for PrimeAgra a type of s/h medium.

To Charles -- Thanks for the information, that really, really helps me out. I think I'm going to try a bit less msu and add a bit of calcium nitrate. Is there any symptoms/signs to watch for that the plant is getting too much nitrogen, since it will be getting the nitrogen from the msu and the nitrogen from the calcium nitrate? I'm thinking it will be fine but I think it's always good to try and notice changes before things go too wrong.

Shayne


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## Phrag-Plus (Aug 22, 2008)

ssknapp777 said:


> To Jean-Pierre -- Yes, I hope you do get a flower soon. That would be cool. PA is just an abbreviation for PrimeAgra a type of s/h medium.
> 
> To Charles -- Thanks for the information, that really, really helps me out. I think I'm going to try a bit less msu and add a bit of calcium nitrate. Is there any symptoms/signs to watch for that the plant is getting too much nitrogen, since it will be getting the nitrogen from the msu and the nitrogen from the calcium nitrate? I'm thinking it will be fine but I think it's always good to try and notice changes before things go too wrong.
> 
> Shayne



Hi Shayne, thanks I didn't what was PA....
Ok about fertiliser…
I’m mainly use fish emulsion, and always put a spoon of meal bone on the top of my pots also. 
But as chemical, I’m using Peter’s 13-2-13 with 6% ca and 3% Mg. This fertiliser is made especially to grow in peat moos because it is very poor in nutriments.... And I’m growing all my plants in moss... It almost the same thing as MSU but much more cheaply, I’m paying 35$ for 25 pounds....

PPM pencil is very good to know what is the concentration of total salt dissolve in the water but not exactly represent the plants need. 
If you are using rain water or r-osmose it is much more easyer to figure out the needs. 

In horticulture, when we are saying than the plant need 100 or 150 PPM it is mean of N but you can calculate it for any chemical element too...
The way to calculate it is:

PPM x volume = gr (volume is what you want to get)
N% x 10

If I’m using my 13-2-13 (N-P-K) and if you want 100 PPM of N you take the 13 N

100 PPM x 100 lt = 76 grams of 13-2-13 to get 100 PPM
13 %N x 10

But if you are looking at the PPM pencil it could be at 320 PPM of total dissolve salt... But 100 PPM of N what's the plant need...
It is that why it is always important to use pure water specially in Phrags culture.
Plants need is N P K.... In moss and clay Ca and Mg but it is like us it is always good to have different sources of food... Not always the same...
Hope it help!


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## NYEric (Aug 22, 2008)

ssknapp777 said:


> To Jean-Pierre -- Yes, I hope you do get a flower soon. Shayne



Yep that would be nice; except it's 3/4 at least size of the smallest blooming size Pk I've ever seen. :wink: BTW, has anyone seen a purple Pk, not counting the one at WOC.


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## gonewild (Aug 22, 2008)

ssknapp777 said:


> Thanks Lance!!!
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion of calcium and calcium nitrate. I have calcium nitrate, how do you add calcium only and how much if using MSU? Is there a liquid supplement? After adding these two I should have most of the cultural requirements met. I hope!



Mix the Calcium Nitrate separate from your MSU. When mixed together with the acidic MSU solution, Calcium Nitrate may react by forming gypsum. If this happens , and it does easily, the Calcium will form a solid and fall to the bottom of your fertilizer tank. 

I mix Calcium Nitrate is a separate tank at the same concentration I mix the MSU. That will still give you about the same Nitrogen level and higher Calcium.
So for example I have a 9 gallon tank that I mix 3 tablespoons of MSU to get the concentration I want. In a separate 9 gallon tank I mix 3 tablespoons of Calcium Nitrate.

You can alternate waterings between the two different fertilizer solutions. Or you can just do it every so often and the results are about the same. The idea is to shift the ratios of the other elements to Calcium without altering the ratios between the MSU elements. It seems to be beneficial for a surge in calcium levels to occur every so often. 
I would not mix the Calcium Nitrate with the MSU because that will throw off the balance between the major elements of the MSU.
Consider the addition of Calcium Nitrate as a treat for the plants but is not one that they need everyday.

I think you can buy liquid Calcium Nitrate but all it is is Calcium Nitrate dissolved in water. Calcium Nitrate dissolves easily in water so you can mix it yourself. Calcium Nitrate comes in several dry forms. The most common now is a prilled form that is intended to be applied directly to the soil or below the soil surface in its dry form. To make the "prills" the Calcium Nitrate is coated with wax to form little free flowing balls. Unfortunately the wax makes a mess when you dissolve the prills in water. It won't hurt anything but it may clog up a filter or injector. Best to get the plain Calcium Nitrate that dissolves cleanly in water if you can find it.


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## gonewild (Aug 22, 2008)

Wendy said:


> I have two Pk seedlings. One is doing well and is on it's second growth. The other has sat in 'suspended animation since I got it. Both are grown the same so I have no idea why one is doing fantastic and one isn't. They are potted in small coconut, perlite and treefern fibre with limestone added. Both are grown intermediate, phal light and kept wet. Here are a couple photos. The big one has great roots while the small one only has 'nubs'. (the lower leaf on the big one looks yellowish but it's not)



The answer is simple.....

Genetics.

25% of all the seedlings grow slow and would normally be culled and not offered for sale. P.kovachii seedlings are so rare I think every protocorm was saved in an attempt to increase numbers. Probably most vendors that offer kovachii seedlings are shipping off their smaller less vigorous plants and keeping the best for themselves. The slow growers will likely always be slow and most likely will not have a long life. In nature the slow growers would never survive long enough to grow a first root.


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## gonewild (Aug 22, 2008)

Wendy said:


> It was in an aircone...I switched to clay in hopes that it might like that. Sorry; I should have put that in my first post.




I think an aircone would have been the wrong way to go. P.kovachii really likes wet feet.


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## gonewild (Aug 22, 2008)

NYEric said:


> Yep that would be nice; except it's 3/4 at least size of the smallest blooming size Pk I've ever seen. :wink: BTW, has anyone seen a purple Pk, not counting the one at WOC.



Do they come in colors other than purple now?


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## Kevin (Aug 22, 2008)

gonewild said:


> Do they come in colors other than purple now?



Yeah, that's what I was wondering. Maybe they aren't purple at all, but mauve or something like that. What is the 'true' colour of kovachii (never having seen one in person yet)?


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## suss16 (Aug 22, 2008)

Lance,

I purchased calcium nitrate (Tiger Brand 15.5-0-0) at a local nursery. It was pretty darn inexpensive... I planned on using it on my orchids, but I was concerned it was not design for orchid use. That may sound silly, but I would rather sound silly than be stupid.

Tony


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## NYEric (Aug 22, 2008)

gonewild said:


> Do they come in colors other than purple now?



Most I've seen aren't really purple. I need that color guide again!


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## gonewild (Aug 22, 2008)

NYEric said:


> Most I've seen aren't really purple. I need that color guide again!



I would generalize that they are purple. But I just asked Belinda what color they are and she said Purple-red. She said more red than purple and she is pretty good with colors. So I'll say reddish-purple or purpleish-red. :wink:

So I just looked up a picture I took in Lima and sure enough the flower is both red and purple. The top of the pouch is red and the petals purple.
The color in this image is exactly correct on my calibrated monitor.
So what color is it?


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## SlipperFan (Aug 22, 2008)

I'd call it magenta-red, or red-violet. Having a pigment/artist background, the color I call purple (syn. violet) on the pigment color wheel is half-way between blue and red. The intermediate color between those would be red-violet. On the "light" color wheel, violet (purple) would be called magenta.
Pigment: http://www.reuels.com/reuels/media/jh/jh3451.jpg
Light: http://www.d.umn.edu/~mharvey/colorwheel.jpg


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## Kevin (Aug 23, 2008)

Does the pouch on Pk feel 'velvety'? It looks like it should on that photo. Very impressive!


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## cnycharles (Aug 23, 2008)

gonewild said:


> Mix the Calcium Nitrate separate from your MSU. When mixed together with the acidic MSU solution, Calcium Nitrate may react by forming gypsum. If this happens , and it does easily, the Calcium will form a solid and fall to the bottom of your fertilizer tank.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you can buy liquid Calcium Nitrate but all it is is Calcium Nitrate dissolved in water. Calcium Nitrate dissolves easily in water so you can mix it yourself. Calcium Nitrate comes in several dry forms. The most common now is a prilled form that is intended to be applied directly to the soil or below the soil surface in its dry form. To make the "prills" the Calcium Nitrate is coated with wax to form little free flowing balls. Unfortunately the wax makes a mess when you dissolve the prills in water. It won't hurt anything but it may clog up a filter or injector. Best to get the plain Calcium Nitrate that dissolves cleanly in water if you can find it.



Geez, I'm a grower whose seen the calcium precipitate out of solution and forgot about that fact! (calcium settling out in a stock tank) Usually it happened in concentrated solution with fertilizers that had sulfur in it, but Lance's idea of avoiding putting it in solutions that are acidic coming out of the hose is much easier to remember. Another thing you can do if you really want to have msu mixed with calcium nitrate is to mix both with water separately, then add the two together. Some places have a few injectors nearby, then have them mix together down the line in a mixing tank so that you have even amounts coming out of the hose. Fertilizers at application rates (diluted) are much less likely to have reactions when mixed together; it is usually at concentrated levels that they will react and precipitate.
If you like cool science, you can mix a bunch of calcium in with a concentrated solution that is acidic or has sulfur in it, and you will get an endothermic reaction (one that soaks up energy or gets very cold as a result) and you will see ice possibly on the outside of the container and maybe slush in the barrel, and you will likely see fog. Also in the bottom will be mostly insoluble calcium.

I hadn't seen the prills of wax-covered calcium. The 25 lb or so bags are usually water-dissolvable. You can also buy 2.5 gallon jugs of concentrated flowable limestone, figure out the rate you want and add to water. Also you can buy pelleted lime which is I believe powdered and then formed into pellets. You can just dump some in a bucket of water and let it dissolve after a while and then apply.


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