# getting slightly disappointed with phrags



## orchideya (Feb 12, 2015)

I have been growing phrags for almost a year and yesterday I made an honest assessment of the results and it seems that I am not very good with them. 
For some reason they grew full pots of roots, but not much of the foliage. On the contrary - some type of brown rot would snap half a leaf here and there until I can't look at it anymore and throw the whole fan away.
The only one that grows nicely both roots and leaves and has no problems at all is caudatum, but its leaves are harder and thicker, maybe that's why. Rest are besseae hybrids and they don't like my tank. 
Temps around 16C now, there is a fan running on the schedule, watering with distilled water.
What's not to like?


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## Secundino (Feb 12, 2015)

Generally speaking, a plant with roots is happy. Leaf damage occurs mostly with high salt content of water - but if you use destilled water only, there are no high salt contents and that can not be the reason - there must be something else:
- what do you feed?
- what type of substrate do you use?
- the fan is good, but watch the humidity of the surrounding air!
- how many sun you allow to reach the plants for how long?


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## orchideya (Feb 12, 2015)

Secundino said:


> Generally speaking, a plant with roots is happy. Leaf damage occurs mostly with high salt content of water - but if you use destilled water only, there are no high salt contents and that can not be the reason - there must be something else:
> - what do you feed?
> - what type of substrate do you use?
> - the fan is good, but watch the humidity of the surrounding air!
> - how many sun you allow to reach the plants for how long?



Ok, thank you Secundino for giving some hope, they certainly have great roots. Here are the answers:

-Through this all time I fed just twice with very diluted solution of balanced 20-20-20 all purpose ferts that I use on all my orchids.
- Substrate is bark with perlite and river stones
- Humidity in that tank is around 60%. Often I see clear liquid collecting on the leaves, but it is not a water, it seems like they produce maybe some type of sap, I don't know. I wipe it away as soon as I see it.
- T5 HO lights are on from 6 am to 8 pm
So, what am I doing wrong?


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## gonewild (Feb 12, 2015)

If you want to grow leaves you have to provide the plant nutrients. The amount of fertilizer you have used is not enough.

I solved the type of rot problem you describe by reducing potassium in the fertilizer.

16c is too cold for day temperature.

If caudtum is doing well and besseae hybrids are not then you may not be watering enough.

If your tank is enclosed you may have low CO2 levels.


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## orchideya (Feb 12, 2015)

gonewild said:


> If you want to grow leaves you have to provide the plant nutrients. The amount of fertilizer you have used is not enough.
> 
> I solved the type of rot problem you describe by reducing potassium in the fertilizer.
> 
> ...



How often should I fertilize?

Underwatering is not a problem because they sit in saucers with water and are always wet, I think roots like it and grow like crazy.
Temps are hovering between 15-16 at night to 17-18 when lights are on. I thought they liked it cooler. My phals are fine there and even blooming.


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## NYEric (Feb 12, 2015)

I have basically a ton of besseae hybrids. I have also killed a ton due to either bad rotten media or humidity issues. Why do you have the plants in a tank?


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## PaphMadMan (Feb 12, 2015)

Not a Phrag expert, but it does sound like you have under-fertilized. I wouldn't increase dramatically though, maybe try that dilute solution once or twice a month and watch for a change. The rot you describe could mean calcium deficiency in some plants - one necrotic spot allows rot in and the leaf collapses at that point. Make sure your fertilizer is supplying some calcium and magnesium, and the usual micro-nutrients.


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## orchideya (Feb 12, 2015)

NYEric said:


> I have basically a ton of besseae hybrids. I have also killed a ton due to either bad rotten media or humidity issues. Why do you have the plants in a tank?


Humidity in the house drops to 25%, I thought it would be too dry for phrags. No?
I guess I could try to put them into bathroom, should be slightly more humid.


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## orchideya (Feb 12, 2015)

PaphMadMan said:


> Not a Phrag expert, but it does sound like you have under-fertilized. I wouldn't increase dramatically though, maybe try that dilute solution once or twice a month and watch for a change. The rot you describe could mean calcium deficiency in some plants - one necrotic spot allows rot in and the leaf collapses at that point. Make sure your fertilizer is supplying some calcium and magnesium, and the usual micro-nutrients.



Thanks. I will try every 2 weeks and see.
Will they like crushed oyster shells for calcium? I have some that I use for paphs.


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## NYEric (Feb 12, 2015)

If they are in trays of water I would not worry about it. I think your problem might be about too much humidity on the leaves. In the airflow takes care of that problem.


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## gonewild (Feb 12, 2015)

orchideya said:


> How often should I fertilize?
> 
> Underwatering is not a problem because they sit in saucers with water and are always wet, I think roots like it and grow like crazy.
> Temps are hovering between 15-16 at night to 17-18 when lights are on. I thought they liked it cooler. My phals are fine there and even blooming.



Temperatures: They enjoy cool nights but need warmer day temperature. A good basic rule is 10 degrees difference between day and night. 

Fertilizer: If your growing environment remains constant then your nutrient application should remain constant. meaning give them small amounts of nutrients every time you water. 
The basic thing you need to remember that plants need nutrients to use to build leaves. Without nutrients there is nothing to build with, kind of like trying to build a brick house without mortar. You can stack the bricks but not very high. And be aware that CO2 is a nutrient, it supplies carbon to the plant. Carbon to a plant is like the bricks in the brick house, without bricks the mortar is useless. When a plant grows it needs CO2 and "fertilizer" to physically build the leaves and the amount the plant has access to will effect the amount of leaves the plant can grow.

What I just said does not answer your question about how much fertilizer to use but you need to use more. Think bout the examples I gave and read some of the fertilizer threads here on the forum and base the amount of fertilizer on your environment. Or just copy what the K-lite growers are using with the low dosages.

I suggest using the K-lite type fertilizer because I have found that reducing the potassium corrects the type of rot symptom you described. Even though you have not applied enough 20-20-20 fertilizer to create an excess of potassium what you have created by using basically no fertilizer may be a high ratio of potassium available from the substrate. Applying fertilizer with low potassium will bring the total nutrient ratio into a better balance.


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## orchideya (Feb 12, 2015)

I have K- Lite, but I didn't start using it yet because cannot figure out how to dissolve it, in what proportions to the water. I don't have any weighting-measuring tools besides "spoons". Using my 20-20-20 is easy, it comes with a scoop, so I take quarter of the scoop and everything is happy. 

For phrags I did separate solution in a small bottle with just a few crystals. I guess, I need to be more scientific.


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## Paul (Feb 12, 2015)

Hi,

just add K-Lite powder at 1/4 of what you give with your 20-20-20 powder into the distilled water and everything should be ok!! 

If leaves remain black, then maybe you could have bacterial problems (acidovorax) but I doubt...


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## orchideya (Feb 12, 2015)

Paul said:


> Hi,
> 
> just add K-Lite powder at 1/4 of what you give with your 20-20-20 powder into the distilled water and everything should be ok!!
> 
> If leaves remain black, then maybe you could have bacterial problems (acidovorax) but I doubt...




That sounds easy. Thank you.

So, my course of actions for the besseae hybrids:
- move them out of tank;
- switch to K-Lite ferts;
- fertilize every 2 weeks.

Hope it works.


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## Secundino (Feb 12, 2015)

If you have Phals in the same tank and they flower and thrive well, then the Phrags are simply not getting enough light! 

This sap the leaves exude - guttation drops - are a sign of extremely high humidity. Something that is very likely to happen in a tank. It is the trick the plant does to force transpiration. I could be, that the leaves that 'rotted', just weren't able to assimilate as they should have and the plant droped them and replaced them. The new fan would be not as big ? 

My Phragmis grow very quick - the most of all my orchids, like a Miltonia...! - and a quick and strong growing plant transpirates a lot and needs lot of water. Fresh substrate and continuos low feeding is ok for them.

River pebbles - you now what they are? Marble-like or flint or quartzite? 
I assume you change the water the pots are sitting in; for even with low fertilizing, if you leave these 'waste'-water in the bottom, it will concentrate. 

I nearly don't feed my plants. And when I do, - once or twice a month - it is a very diluted 20-20-20 solution. Once in a blue moon epsom salts. Thats it. I don't believe in low-K-feeding, and my plants are growing well. They get sun most of the year! Not as much as Cattleya, but much more than Phals get. In winter (and, to be honest, most times of the year) I can't provide a day-night difference of more than 5 or 6ºC. Now I have 16 - 20ºC. No sun - no warmth. 

Whatsoever you want to change, make it gradually!


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## ehanes7612 (Feb 12, 2015)

I find it hard to undernourish a besseae hybrid and water trays can be a blessing or a curse (they were a curse for me)..just depends on everything else. When I grew in my GH i got a lot of sap, now that I grow in the house with lower humidiity , no sap..I would agree with Secundino, humidity maybe too high and get rid of the water trays for a month just to see if there is any improvement, you can always go back to them


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## Paph_LdyMacBeth (Feb 12, 2015)

Brown rot on phrags is in my experience erwinia. I've experienced this a few times, always when I put my phrags outside for the summer. In my case it could be due to either hard water or cool nights.


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## orchideya (Feb 12, 2015)

Thank you everybody for your thoughts and advice.




Secundino said:


> If you have Phals in the same tank and they flower and thrive well, then the Phrags are simply not getting enough light!
> 
> This sap the leaves exude - guttation drops - are a sign of extremely high humidity. Something that is very likely to happen in a tank. It is the trick the plant does to force transpiration. I could be, that the leaves that 'rotted', just weren't able to assimilate as they should have and the plant droped them and replaced them. The new fan would be not as big ?
> 
> ...



I will change one thing at the time, so to understand what helped(if anything will help)
I think I will start with removing them from tank. Maybe high humidity is the problem. I will repot them into fresh media, move to bathroom window and make sure I change the water in the saucers more often.
That window has south-west exposure - lots of sun.


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## gonewild (Feb 12, 2015)

orchideya said:


> I have K- Lite, but I didn't start using it yet because cannot figure out how to dissolve it, in what proportions to the water. I don't have any weighting-measuring tools besides "spoons". Using my 20-20-20 is easy, it comes with a scoop, so I take quarter of the scoop and everything is happy.
> 
> For phrags I did separate solution in a small bottle with just a few crystals. I guess, I need to be more scientific.



A few crystals in a small bottle of water is about the same as pure water as far as the plant is concerned.

You could use the same scoop amount for K-lite and the result would be lower nutrient application than with the 20-20-20.

You might also consider switching from distilled water to RO water. Distilled water contains no minerals like calcium and most RO water has some calcium in it and buying RO water should be cheaper than distilled.


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## gonewild (Feb 12, 2015)

orchideya said:


> Thank you everybody for your thoughts and advice.
> I will change one thing at the time, so to understand what helped(if anything will help)
> I think I will start with removing them from tank. Maybe high humidity is the problem. I will repot them into fresh media, move to bathroom window and make sure I change the water in the saucers more often.
> That window has south-west exposure - lots of sun.



All of the things on your list will help so change them all soon, no need to experiment with these basic improvements.


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## Paphman910 (Feb 12, 2015)

orchideya said:


> I have been growing phrags for almost a year and yesterday I made an honest assessment of the results and it seems that I am not very good with them.
> For some reason they grew full pots of roots, but not much of the foliage. On the contrary - some type of brown rot would snap half a leaf here and there until I can't look at it anymore and throw the whole fan away.
> The only one that grows nicely both roots and leaves and has no problems at all is caudatum, but its leaves are harder and thicker, maybe that's why. Rest are besseae hybrids and they don't like my tank.
> Temps around 16C now, there is a fan running on the schedule, watering with distilled water.
> What's not to like?



First check your water quality! Should be low in TDS and make sure the pH is about 6.5 to 6.8.


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## gonewild (Feb 12, 2015)

Paphman910 said:


> First check your water quality! Should be low in TDS and make sure the pH is about 6.5 to 6.8.



The water being used has no quality!....it is distilled water.


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## Paphman910 (Feb 12, 2015)

gonewild said:


> The water being used has no quality!....it is distilled water.



Thanks! Missed that!


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## Ray (Feb 12, 2015)

orchideya said:


> How often should I fertilize?


My approach is to mimic nature: there is very little nutrition available to the plant, but it's always present.

I feed very dilute solutions at every watering, flooding each time.


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## cnycharles (Feb 12, 2015)

If in the tank do you have fans? Moving air would help many things. Can leave in rank if you allow air exchange. If you need some more feed and need calcium then you could use calcium nitrate. This will add n and c and make possible k ratio lower

Clark just told me he was able to stop rot by not watering from over top and watering from bottom in a bucket


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## Paphman910 (Feb 12, 2015)

Do you have a photo of your setup in the tank?


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## AdamD (Feb 12, 2015)

I have one suggestion that really helped me with the K-Lite. Get a coffee grinder! I have one devoted solely to crushing up K-Lite. It was $20. Well worth it. I use 1/4 tsp/gal almost every watering. Granted I got rid of my phrags... I grow too hot and bright. Hope this helps. It was suggested to me and I don't know what I would've done without it!


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## tnyr5 (Feb 12, 2015)

Try this : 
get two gallon jugs, a measuring teaspoon, and an 8oz cup. 
-Measure two level teaspoons of K-lite and mix with distilled water in a gallon jug, shake to dissolve. 
-Add one 8oz cup of this mixture to the second jug, then fill to the top with distilled water. Use this to water your plants at 9 out of every 10 waterings. 
- On the rare occasions you don't use it, mix one or two cups of tap water into a gallon of distilled water. Adding a pinch of epsom salts wouldn't be a bad idea, either. 
- Open the lid to the terrarium for 20 -30 minutes every night to allow gas exchange
- follow everyone's advice & add a small fan inside the tank 

I'm certainly no expert; many people here know a LOT more than I do, and I'm sure they could come up with better ways, but this is pretty easy to follow. 
Tony


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## Stone (Feb 12, 2015)

gonewild said:


> If you want to grow leaves you have to provide the plant nutrients. The amount of fertilizer you have used is not enough.
> 
> I solved the type of rot problem you describe by reducing potassium in the fertilizer.
> 
> ...



I agree with all this...except for the potassium:evil:
Also, 1 year is nowhere near long enough to learn how to grow a difficult group of orchids. I think I might just be learning how to grow SOME Paphs after 3 years and I'm sure it will take another 5 to perfect it.


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## Stone (Feb 12, 2015)

gonewild said:


> The water being used has no quality!....it is distilled water.



So that make it high quality then....or low quality if you are growing orchids :evil:


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## gonewild (Feb 12, 2015)

Stone said:


> So that make it high quality then....or low quality if you are growing orchids :evil:



To be either good or bad quality it must have some mineral content otherwise it is just water and certainly there is no reason to test it.

High quality water has just the right amount of nutrients.
Low quality water has too many bad chemicals.
No quality water has nothing.
:wink:


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## Stone (Feb 12, 2015)

gonewild said:


> To be either good or bad quality it must have some mineral content otherwise it is just water and certainly there is no reason to test it.
> 
> High quality water has just the right amount of nutrients.
> Low quality water has too many bad chemicals.
> ...



Purity is a quality:wink:


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## abax (Feb 12, 2015)

Orchideya, can you collect rainwater? I have a 55 gal.
barrel under a downspout and I use that rainwater exclusively for Phrags. I don't fertilize much or heavily in
winter because there's very little sun to utilize larger amounts of fertilizer. I will gradually increase the amount as spring and summer changes the light situation. I've been growing Phrags. just about a year too and it does take some time to observe and learn just
what they like and don't like. I use K-lite at 1/4 tsp. twice a month now in the rainwater and I never let my
Phrags. sit in water. I hand water the Phrags. first and
let them sit in water while I water the rest of the greenhouse and then empty the saucers. I use clay pots
to aid in transpiration and it seems to suit them in the high humidity of my greenhouse. I might add that my
greenhouse has a lot of air movement and one small
muffin fan directing air slightly over the Phrags. So far,
so good. I'm learning too. We'll work it out together!


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## orchideya (Feb 13, 2015)

Paphman910 said:


> Do you have a photo of your setup in the tank?



Here I posted my slippers tank a little while ago:http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34485


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## orchideya (Feb 13, 2015)

abax said:


> Orchideya, can you collect rainwater? I have a 55 gal.
> barrel under a downspout and I use that rainwater exclusively for Phrags. I don't fertilize much or heavily in
> winter because there's very little sun to utilize larger amounts of fertilizer. I will gradually increase the amount as spring and summer changes the light situation. I've been growing Phrags. just about a year too and it does take some time to observe and learn just
> what they like and don't like. I use K-lite at 1/4 tsp. twice a month now in the rainwater and I never let my
> ...




Angela, I could collect rainwater from the downspout, but I am just afraid of all the garbage collected in the eavestrough, and all the water will go through it. I only have 5 phrags, so buying for them distilled water from drugstore wasn't a big spending.
I am wondering about clay pots, wouldn't roots grab on it for good?


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## NYEric (Feb 13, 2015)

Can you show us an updated photo and the phrags?


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## orchideya (Feb 13, 2015)

NYEric said:


> Can you show us an updated photo and the phrags?




Sure, I will take pictures tomorrow.
I have repotted them yesterday and placed on the windowsill in the bathroom. Hope they like it in there.


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## ALToronto (Feb 13, 2015)

Making K-Lite concentrate, step by step:

1. Buy a small precision scale

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/B0012L...id=1423834394&sr=8-2&keywords=precision+scale

2. Buy a 1 L glass bottle (Dollarama)

3. Measure 33 g of K-Lite and dissolve in 1 L of distilled water. This makes a 4000 ppm N solution. 

4. Use 5 g of concentrate (1 tsp) per litre of water for 20 ppm N. Adjust as necessary. 

5. Keep the concentrate in the fridge.


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## orchideya (Feb 13, 2015)

Thank you AlToronto. Would 5 g of concentrate (1 tsp) per litre of water be good for phrags too?
For how long will solution be good in the fridge?


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## NYEric (Feb 13, 2015)

NO-too much IMO.


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## Paphman910 (Feb 13, 2015)

NYEric said:


> NO-too much IMO.



I totally agree!


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## ALToronto (Feb 13, 2015)

NYEric said:


> NO-too much IMO.



That's why I said 'Adjust as necessary'. I use 10-15 ppm N with every watering, and the plants don't seem to be complaining. It might be too much for paphs - mine are always struggling - but the phrags like it. They're growing well, and no brown leaf tips. 

In fact, I might be underfeeding the paphs, they're getting light coloured spots.

Eric and Paphman910 - what N dosage are you using?

The concentrate keeps for 3-4 months before white mold develops. If you boil the distilled water, it will keep longer. I use 'instant-hot' RO water and disinfect the glass bottle before dissolving the fertiliser.


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## NYEric (Feb 13, 2015)

I have no idea. I only rarely fertilize.


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## Happypaphy7 (Feb 13, 2015)

It sounds like rot. Good thing you got rid of it.
I had two phrags of the same kind. One constantly got the exact same thing you described while the other one did not. 
They were both treated the same way.

Indoor humidity- no matter how low it might be, as long as you breathe fine, plants are fine, not ideal, but they will be fine as long as watering is done correctly.
With the exception of something that must have high humidity and cool temperature to stay alive like Draculas.

If you see just one or two plants having problems while the rest is fine, it's not likely that it's due to culture unless they are completely different kind of plants that need very different care. 

Plants disease organisms are everywhere and some plants are just more susceptible and the only thing you can do it to toss and start new with healthy plants.


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## Happypaphy7 (Feb 13, 2015)

What did you see on your paphs?
Struggling is too vague and I'm just curious. 
It'll help others if you specify the details. and what kind of paphs are they?

I am now using about 20 ppm N every watering or every other watering for a while.
I used to used quite strong dilution in the past with no ill effect at all, although I only fertilized about once a month.
Hence, I'm curious about your paphs.





ALToronto said:


> That's why I said 'Adjust as necessary'. I use 10-15 ppm N with every watering, and the plants don't seem to be complaining. It might be too much for paphs - mine are always struggling - but the phrags like it. They're growing well, and no brown leaf tips.
> 
> In fact, I might be underfeeding the paphs, they're getting light coloured spots.
> 
> ...


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## orchideya (Feb 14, 2015)

Updated pictures of my "Phrags setup".I repotted them and documented everything.
Mix - sponge rock with small fir bark:






and these river stones added:





Roots example - Eumelia Arias:





New setup - out of tank, bathroom window, south-west exposure glass with privacy screen, still very bright spot, no water in saucers:






From left to right:
Hanne Popow, Eumelia Arias, Eric Young, Friz Schoburg. I repotted caudatum too but left it in the tank since it likes it there.





Looking good?


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## Secundino (Feb 14, 2015)

Yes! They indeed look under'fed' - now that they get more light they will surely grow better. Growing is done through assimilation - not primary through uptake of nutrients. Light (energy) is the first 'nutrient' - light, water and air. 

Wish you good luck with your plants!


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## NYEric (Feb 14, 2015)

true.


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## abax (Feb 15, 2015)

Orchideya, I usually soak clay pots in warm water for maybe 15 minutes before dropping on and have had very
few issues with roots sticking to the clay. I'm one of the
shake the root ball and pot on type growers. I try not to
disturb the roots anymore than I absolutely have to. I 
use exclusively Orchiata with a bit of sphag. and Hydroton and most of the clay pots have holes around
the sides. In my very humid greenhouse conditions, I find that air exchange is far more important than just about anything else. I do have to water more often using
this growing method though. I have a LOT of mounts that I have to water, so extra watering is not a bother.
However, this time of year lugging gallon jugs of rainwater back and forth is a pain in the butt!

Oh, addressing the issue of junk in the rain barrel: I keep
the barrel covered with fine screening and a top and my
roofing is 26 gauge steel so the run off is quite clean. I
donno about shingled roofing.


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## orchideya (Feb 15, 2015)

I looked and looked and couldn't find Orchiata for sale anywhere here in Canada. Does anybody know where?


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## ALToronto (Feb 15, 2015)

orchideya said:


> I looked and looked and couldn't find Orchiata for sale anywhere here in Canada. Does anybody know where?



I'll check for you at the SOOS show.


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## Paphman910 (Feb 15, 2015)

orchideya said:


> I looked and looked and couldn't find Orchiata for sale anywhere here in Canada. Does anybody know where?



Can't get it here in Canada due to trade restrictions!


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## ALToronto (Feb 15, 2015)

Paphman910 said:


> Can't get it here in Canada due to trade restrictions!



I just learned the same thing - it's considered a pathogen risk and cannot get brought in because it's a tree product.


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## ALToronto (Feb 15, 2015)

Put them in lava rock - mine love it. Water every day.


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## orchideya (Feb 17, 2015)

Ok, so no orchiata for canadian growers. That's sad.
Thanks for letting me know.
Alla, I think they are good in my mix, at least roots don't rot and grow nicely. I just thought orchiata was "better" bark.


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## Linus_Cello (Feb 17, 2015)

orchideya said:


> Ok, so no orchiata for canadian growers. That's sad.
> Thanks for letting me know.
> Alla, I think they are good in my mix, at least roots don't rot and grow nicely. I just thought orchiata was "better" bark.



My impression is orchidata is "better" bark in that it resists breaking down. Using an inorganic media could serve the same purpose: lava rock, Leuca clay balls, turface, maybe even gravel.

Apparently Orchid Zone uses lava rock, and waters all the time. For s/h I use the leuca clay balls (and water once or twice a week).


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## SlipperFan (Feb 17, 2015)

ALToronto said:


> I just learned the same thing - it's considered a pathogen risk and cannot get brought in because it's a tree product.



That is weird. Apples, oranges, nuts, etc. are all tree products.


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## gonewild (Feb 17, 2015)

SlipperFan said:


> That is weird. Apples, oranges, nuts, etc. are all tree products.



Pine bark could easily harbor insect pests that do not exist in Canada and if a pest were to be introduced it could devastate the pine forests and cause huge economic losses.
The US also has strict laws governing import of tree bark.


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