# Phrag. kovachii habitat photos from Isaias Rolando



## lienluu (Apr 7, 2007)

Isaias Rolando asked me to post these photos for him.


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## Barbara (Apr 7, 2007)

:drool: Beautiful, I can't wait to find one of these. Love the habitat photos, all that moss, they must like it on the acidic side. Thanks for sharing the photos.:clap:


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## Heather (Apr 7, 2007)

Very cool, and look at those reflexed petals in the first photo!


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## wonderlen3000 (Apr 7, 2007)

Wow. Nice picture. Some how i like the reflexed petals than those wide round petals. Look more natural to me.


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## smartie2000 (Apr 7, 2007)

I like that these plants have short foliage


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## WolfDog1 (C. Williams) (Apr 7, 2007)

Nice.....very nice.
Makes me want to take a trip to see 
them in person.


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## isaias m rolando (Apr 7, 2007)

Do you want me to organize an expedition to see these beauties in their natural homeland? Like the one we did with Dr Harold Koopowitz?
Will be my pleisure to do so...
We can take care of permits and all that to make your visit a wonderful one.
I will be doing some field research by June this year and later by November-December.


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## bwester (Apr 7, 2007)

ooooo, I'm in. Wait, no money and my wife would kill me.... maybe someday


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## bwester (Apr 7, 2007)

Beautiful pictures though!!!!


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## isaias m rolando (Apr 7, 2007)

Thank you lienluu for your kind assistance
I have more pics to post...


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## Hien (Apr 7, 2007)

OrchidNorth said:


> :drool: Beautiful, I can't wait to find one of these. Love the habitat photos, all that moss, they must like it on the acidic side. Thanks for sharing the photos.:clap:


 I always notice that my plants that have moss & algae in the pots actually more healthy than the ones without. So there must be something about it that is good for the orchids.
I thought Isaias post a pk website that says the pk should be raised with more alkaline because they are growing on limestone? was I mistaken?


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## Greenthings (Apr 7, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> Do you want me to organize an expedition to see these beauties in their natural homeland? Like the one we did with Dr Harold Koopowitz?
> Will be my pleisure to do so...
> We can take care of permits and all that to make your visit a wonderful one.
> I will be doing some field research by June this year and later by November-December.



Isaias I know, we all are anxious to see the natural habitats of orchids. We are all very anxious to see the exciting Pk habitats. Such is only natural for orchid growers.

However, when one is seriously concerned about orchid conserving/preserving, as you say you are re the Phragmipedium kovachii habitats, or whatever little is left of them, the last thing one wants to do is conduct public tours to them. You simply do not! It is a no-no!

When a large group of well fed "gringos" visit a Peruvian Pk habitat where poor farmers live nearby, the message you are sending them is, "there is money to be made." You can't blame these poor farmers for ripping out the Pk and selling them for a few bucks to vendors, or worse, on the Moyobamba market, where many of them died from high temperatures and improper care.

The habitat Dr. Harold Koopowitz and his large group visited in May 2003, had an estimated 2000 to 3000 mature Pk plants. 
Lee Moore, owner operator of Nuevo Destino Nurseries in Moyobamba, who has visited all known Pk habitats reported that a few weeks after that tour , the habitat was totally depleted. I suppose there may be a few plants left.

Others may agree with your tours there. I, having some experience with orchid conservation projects, totally disagree. We should not conduct public tours to endangered orchid species habitats.

The alternative, guarded Orchid Gardens near the habitats is a much better way of having tourists enjoy them, not unlike the one you created at the hotel in Machu Picchu. You may wish to tell the forum members about that project Isaias.

My two cents worth anyway.
Peter


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## Rick (Apr 8, 2007)

I think you make some good points Peter. Eco-tourism should leave no footprint.

But I think there must be some other way that well fed gringos can interact with real habitat and local culture without being spoon fed from parks. I'm not trying to put down the parks either, they will have their audiance and conservation benefit too.

This is a very interesting dilema that we should discuss more.


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## isaias m rolando (Apr 8, 2007)

OK, this will be very long, have a confortable chair and seat please...
-First of all, Lee Moore is not the Guru for PK information. He has NOT visited all pk habitats. PERIOD. There is a very good population in habitat Nº 3...and Nº 4...and probably there exist more habitats....
-Habitat Nº 2 was depleted...yes sure, after collecting permit Nº 2. Who did this? you all know that convicted person. Inrena-Cites Peru issued in 2003 a CITES Export permit for 300 plants of said "Phrag boissierianum" to this person. Do you think these were really boissierianum? Now you can explain better how you have pk hybrids like PK X besseae in the US.
-why you guys always repeat and insist that "poor locals" are constantly depleting PK wild population? Do you know that there are pictures of an helicopter landing near pk habitat? Where did this Helicopter was coming from? Not from Peru, certainly. They identified themselfs as chilean with northern accent....?
-Do you know that there is a country in Europe having a full greenhouse with hundreds of PK? That they also have the alba form?
-Do you know that there are thousands of pk in Ecuador? specially in a greenhouse full of this nice plant? Of course they constanly deny it. But a member of this well known family was police captured last year with 4500 illegaly extracted orchid plants?
-Do you know that pk was in Taiwan even before the description of the new specie? This is recent info and you will see soon how they will fill the market with pk hybrids, if not the specie itself. So the best efforts in Australia to reproduce their illegal obtained plants will be only for that local and big island.
-So please DO NOT BLAME ON POOR LOCALS. They are not responsible for pk extinction in the first two habitats. Responsibles have already been convicted by US Department of Justice but scaped from US and can not travel anymore because Interpol is after him. That is why the son is doing and perpetuating their illegal comercial activities. The father was also in prisson here in Peru. The Club Peruano de Orquideas put him out as a member by unanimous decision of ALL MEMBERS. How can he export? With the help of some bad officers at Inrena. I am sure when the new President will know about this illegal activities he will stop that bussines. All his plants should be confiscated and returned to where they belong: the peruvian jungle. He always exported but wild collected material, for the last 30 years at least.And he calls his plants "fresh material" (sic, means jungle collected looking like cultivated).
-Conservation in situ is the best way to save a wild orchid population. I believe pk is safe now from extinction, because it is everywhere in this planet. Please lets do something to preserve the wild existant population in the natural habitats. This is a land of no use for agriculture, perhaps some timber activities, but that's it. It is already a protected area, but anyopne can enter and take whatever they want. There are no Inrena controls or police controls.
-I agree with you Peter, but why do you want to not have tourist activities if whit this legal bussines the "poor locals" can obtain some income and not to depend of an illegal extraction of a few orchids. Lets do something diferent, like to create a real protected private land to preserve many orchids , not just pk. And to have paid visits with tourists coming from any corner of the planet, before we want to stop a few "poor locals" and doing nothing to stop the black market buying from them the specie and hybrids...
-Am I clear enough?
I know that posting this facts I risk my life, because I have some real enemies that act very badly when they are exposed....you will see...
VERITAS ILLUMINATIO MEA
IN GOD I TRUST


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## Greenthings (Apr 8, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> OK, this will be very long, have a confortable chair and seat please...
> 
> -Do you know that pk was in Taiwan even before the description of the new specie? This is recent info and you will see soon how they will fill the market with pk hybrids, if not the specie itself. So the best efforts in Australia to reproduce their illegal obtained plants will be only for that local and big island.
> -So please DO NOT BLAME ON POOR LOCALS. They are not responsible for pk extinction in the first two habitats. Responsibles have already been convicted by US Department of Justice but scaped from US and can not travel anymore because Interpol is after him. That is why the son is doing and perpetuating their illegal comercial activities. The father was also in prisson here in Peru. The Club Peruano de Orquideas put him out as a member by unanimous decision of ALL MEMBERS. How can he export? With the help of some bad officers at Inrena. I am sure when the new President will know about this illegal activities he will stop that bussines. All his plants should be confiscated and returned to where they belong: the peruvian jungle. He always exported but wild collected material, for the last 30 years at least.And he calls his plants "fresh material" (sic, means jungle collected looking like cultivated).




Hi Isaias,

I will not reveal the name of the Peruvian person you talk about, but simply call him Mr X.; his US partner Mr. Y. Many ST subscribers will already know who they are.

I am well aware of the many incidents you refer to in your post; I will not argue with you the different views you and I may hold about them.

I must point out that the person you speak of,(Mr. X,) was not convicted by the USDOJ for smuggling Pk; neither was Mr. Y. 

Please check the March 11 2004 USDOJ indictment against Mr.X and Mr.Y for the exact charges. You may well have evidence who was involved in Pk smuggling, but in all fairness to Mr X and Mr. Y. that is not what they were charged with.

peter


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## gonewild (Apr 8, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> -Habitat Nº 2 was depleted...yes sure, after collecting permit Nº 2. Who did this? you all know that convicted person. Inrena-Cites Peru issued in 2003 a CITES Export permit for 300 plants of said "Phrag boissierianum" to this person. Do you think these were really boissierianum? Now you can explain better how you have pk hybrids like PK X besseae in the US.



Who were these 300 plants of "Phrag boissierianum" exported to in the USA?
All exports must have a importer on the other end.


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## Hien (Apr 8, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> OK, this will be very long, have a confortable chair and seat please...
> -First of all, Lee Moore is not the Guru for PK information. He has NOT visited all pk habitats. PERIOD. There is a very good population in habitat Nº 3...and Nº 4...and probably there exist more habitats....
> -Habitat Nº 2 was depleted...yes sure, after collecting permit Nº 2. Who did this? you all know that convicted person. Inrena-Cites Peru issued in 2003 a CITES Export permit for 300 plants of said "Phrag boissierianum" to this person. Do you think these were really boissierianum? Now you can explain better how you have pk hybrids like PK X besseae in the US.
> -why you guys always repeat and insist that "poor locals" are constantly depleting PK wild population? Do you know that there are pictures of an helicopter landing near pk habitat? Where did this Helicopter was coming from? Not from Peru, certainly. They identified themselfs as chilean with northern accent....?
> ...



Isaias

I am very impressed by the well of information. I did not know that so many countries have so many pk plants. And here I thought that we are the first pioneers in the whole world importing them into the US in flasks.

I agree that if you organize, and tell the local that if they preserve & protect the pk habitat site, they will have income year after year from tourist, if they sell them, when the plants are depleted, so will be the money (they can even import cheap pk seedlings from taiwan to sell at the gate before the tourist going home.
Years ago, My father once travelled to the USA, buy a toy totem at a native american reservation for me, it has a MADE IN CHINA stamped at the bottom)


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## lienluu (Apr 8, 2007)

Hien said:


> tell the local that if they preserve & protect the pk habitat site, they will have income year after year from tourist, if they sell them, when the plants are depleted



This method of conservation is employed all over the world with very good results. Similar ecotours are done with parrot species and once notorious pouchers have become part of the conservation team who work with the government to ensure survival of the species, with their salaries paid by tourism.


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## Paphman910 (Apr 8, 2007)

A few growers have told me that there will be lots of Phrag kovachii in the market very soon. I think I better save my money and purchase them later as the price will no doubt go down.

Paphman910


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## gonewild (Apr 8, 2007)

Isaias, It is good you are speaking out.



isaias m rolando said:


> OK, this will be very long, have a confortable chair and seat please...
> -First of all, Lee Moore is not the Guru for PK information. He has NOT visited all pk habitats. PERIOD. There is a very good population in habitat Nº 3...and Nº 4...and probably there exist more habitats....



Isaias did you read this....
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2384



> -Habitat Nº 2 was depleted...yes sure, after collecting permit Nº 2. Who did this? you all know that convicted person. Inrena-Cites Peru issued in 2003 a CITES Export permit for 300 plants of said "Phrag boissierianum" to this person. Do you think these were really boissierianum? Now you can explain better how you have pk hybrids like PK X besseae in the US.



I already asked you who these plants were exported to. People in other countries can't do anything to affect Peruvian exporters. You need to identify who the importers of illegal kovachii are. Then buyers can avoid paying money to support the black market.



> -why you guys always repeat and insist that "poor locals" are constantly depleting PK wild population?



I have said the Peruvian black market has a great effect on the population, but NOT THE "POOR LOCALS". The poor locals are not responsible or accountable for any economic or environmental problems. But there are plenty of RICH Peruvians who have hired poachers to get them plants. These guys are responsible who ever they are. 



> Do you know that there are pictures of an helicopter landing near pk habitat? Where did this Helicopter was coming from? Not from Peru, certainly. They identified themselfs as chilean with northern accent....?



Somebody flew a helicopter from Chile to Northern Peru to collect kovachii from the wild? Just because it landed in the area does not mean they were collecting orchids. I think helicopters have a much more valuable cargo to carry on that route. Helicopters land in Madre de Dios all the time, and they are not picking up castana.

What king of northern accent? USA or Columbian?



> -Do you know that there is a country in Europe having a full greenhouse with hundreds of PK? That they also have the alba form?



Name please. For reasons stated above.



> -Do you know that there are thousands of pk in Ecuador? specially in a greenhouse full of this nice plant? Of course they constanly deny it. But a member of this well known family was police captured last year with 4500 illegaly extracted orchid plants?



Is this a known fact or only what people believe to be true? 



> -Do you know that pk was in Taiwan even before the description of the new specie? This is recent info and you will see soon how they will fill the market with pk hybrids, if not the specie itself.



Taiwan usually gets the first of new fish species discovered also. They pay a lot of money.




> -So please DO NOT BLAME ON POOR LOCALS. They are not responsible for pk extinction in the first two habitats. Responsibles have already been convicted by US Department of Justice but scaped from US and can not travel anymore because Interpol is after him. That is why the son is doing and perpetuating their illegal comercial activities. The father was also in prisson here in Peru.



In prison in Peru for crimes involveing plants?



> The Club Peruano de Orquideas put him out as a member by unanimous decision of ALL MEMBERS. How can he export? With the help of some bad officers at Inrena.



Does the father own acciones in the company or is all in the name of the son?



> I am sure when the new President will know about this illegal activities he will stop that bussines.



Not without a complete change in INRENA which has surrvived many Presidents.



> All his plants should be confiscated and returned to where they belong: the peruvian jungle.



No! They should be given to a legal person to propigate them. You should not return contaminated plants back to the jungle. That could introduce a disease from Lima.



> He always exported but wild collected material, for the last 30 years at least.And he calls his plants "fresh material" (sic, means jungle collected looking like cultivated).



So that means it is not only INRENA that is the problem but also SENASA for issueing phytosanitary permits on wild plants.



> -Conservation in situ is the best way to save a wild orchid population. I believe pk is safe now from extinction, because it is everywhere in this planet. Please lets do something to preserve the wild existant population in the natural habitats. This is a land of no use for agriculture, perhaps some timber activities, but that's it.



Timber harvest in that area will be of no threat to kovachii plants.



> It is already a protected area, but anyopne can enter and take whatever they want. There are no Inrena controls or police controls.



What protection status does the area have? Anyone can enter and take whatever they want anywhere in Peru, even in Manu and Tambopata.



> -I agree with you Peter, but why do you want to not have tourist activities if whit this legal bussines the "poor locals" can obtain some income and not to depend of an illegal extraction of a few orchids. Lets do something diferent, like to create a real protected private land to preserve many orchids , not just pk. And to have paid visits with tourists coming from any corner of the planet, before we want to stop a few "poor locals" and doing nothing to stop the black market buying from them the specie and hybrids...
> -Am I clear enough?



What is your idea? It sounds like you want to create a private reserve under a tourism concession? How will this help all the local poor people? 

Isaias, I lived in Puerto Maldonado for 6 years. I worked very closely with FENAMAD and I know the poor people well, they are my friends. I also know exactly how ONGs work. I have seen how the "poor people" despise the National Parks and protected areas. You must take care how you try to protect the environment least you lead the "poor people" to destroy it.
Your idea is good but the text book approach will not work well.

I support your efforts to try to preserve a piece of the jungle before it is too late. If you want to talk about your ideas with me feel free to contact me or start a thread (as Rick mentioned) on this forum about conservation that is separate from the equally important discussion about the black market.



> I know that posting this facts I risk my life, because I have some real enemies that act very badly when they are exposed....you will see...
> VERITAS ILLUMINATIO MEA
> IN GOD I TRUST



Somebody needs to speak up in Peru, you make a good start.
la lucha continua


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## isaias m rolando (Apr 8, 2007)

I can just appreciate all your coments.
All of you are very interested people.
But lets comunicate only by e-mail for your answers`
[email protected]
If you really want the answeres right me there
I think this Forum should stay at the "knowing the facts" level, otherwise we could fall in too deep discusion rather than enjoying our orchids...
Remember we are hobbiests, not comercial growers...
Have a good week


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## Heather (Apr 8, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> I can just appreciate all your coments.
> All of you are very interested people.
> But lets comunicate only by e-mail for your answers`



Personally, I think that what has been started publicly should be finished publicly. 

We are interested. 

It's been brought out into the open, by many people in this thread, now you wish to take it to private email? I don't think that's appropriate. If you want the truth to be known, let it be known in a public setting. If you don't want to finish it in public than perhaps it was a mistake to start it in the first place. Just my opinion, I don't mean to criticize.


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## John M (Apr 9, 2007)

I agree with Heather....and I DO mean to criticize. Isaias, you make many serious accusations. Most of us know who you are talking about and accusing of wrongdoing. If you were honorable, you'd produce proof to back up what you say, or you'd retract your accusations.


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## gonewild (Apr 9, 2007)

I agree with Heather. The forum members are interested in learning what is going on. It is not correct in a free society to give only a part of the story and expect people to make the correct decisions.

The only way to expose and stop the international black market is to talk about it in public. The internet is the perfect tool for Peruvians to bring problems to light.

SlipperTalk is the best place to discuss this subject publically, everyone here cares about what is said.


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## smartie2000 (Apr 9, 2007)

I do want to hear thanks This subject is very interesting indeed


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## isaias m rolando (Apr 9, 2007)

OK, remember you ask for this. You want to stay public, it is ok with me. But I thought you were not interested in the true story because it afects some very honorable comercial growers.
You will have ALL the true . all side by the end of this months. I am waiting some answers from US and elsewhere....
Thank you again for your coments, please wait to the end of this month.
Have a good week


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## NYEric (Apr 9, 2007)

...ominous and heavy with foreboding!


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## gonewild (Apr 9, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> OK, remember you ask for this. You want to stay public, it is ok with me. But I thought you were not interested in the true story because it afects some very honorable comercial growers.



In the USA nobody gets protected by everyone staying quiet, not even the President.


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## NYEric (Apr 9, 2007)

Listen, when [ er, I mean if] Isaias gets whacked I claim half his plants!


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## Hien (Apr 9, 2007)

gonewild said:


> In the USA nobody gets protected by everyone staying quiet, not even the President.


 Lance, I think you are heavily influenced by the series 24 on TV.
After watching it, I am not sure of anything we see & hear are real anymore:sob:


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## gonewild (Apr 9, 2007)

Hien said:


> Lance, I think you are heavily influenced by the series 24 on TV.
> After watching it, I am not sure of anything we see & hear are real anymore:sob:



I don't know the "series 24" Did I miss something influencing?
After being heavily involved in the production of wildlife and nature programs I know better than to believe anything I see on TV!  

All joking aside...
In Peru there exists old families with old money. People do not say things in public that might embarrass a member of this part of society. In the USA we tell all, don't we? Or do we want to protect "some very honorable comercial growers"?


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## Hien (Apr 9, 2007)

gonewild said:


> I don't know the "series 24" Did I miss something influencing?
> After being heavily involved in the production of wildlife and nature programs I know better than to believe anything I see on TV!
> 
> All joking aside...
> In Peru there exists old families with old money. People do not say things in public that might embarrass a member of this part of society. In the USA we tell all, don't we? Or do we want to protect "some very honorable comercial growers"?


 24 is on tonight on FOX network. w/ agent Bauer (Keith Sutherland) in troulble all the times (I mean the country in trouble all the times).
I wonder , that by us asking about the pk situation all over the world, and trace them back to Peru, doesn't that put Isaias in trouble for stepping on some peruvian big toes.


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## gonewild (Apr 9, 2007)

Hien said:


> 24 is on tonight on FOX network. w/ agent Bauer (Keith Sutherland) in troulble all the times (I mean the country in trouble all the times).



OH that one. Never watched it, previews have too much scramming "Jack".



> I wonder , that by us asking about the pk situation all over the world, and trace them back to Peru, doesn't that put Isaias in trouble for stepping on some peruvian big toes.



Isaias brought this to us, we did not ask him to do it. He is aware of the problems it may cause for himself. He says he is willing to expose the problem because that is what he believes is the right thing to do. Bravo for him.

This is the same problem Peter has had with revealing his sources for his so called "rumors". Peter could not reveal names of who told him things for exactly the same reason you point out. But Isaias steps freely forward and is willing to fight for his cause, whatever it is. 

For us it is about plants, for the people of Peru it is about advancement of their democracy, which is very young by the way.

To tell Isaias to be quiet is to empower the darkside, to listen to and question what he says gives a light of hope.

My opinion.


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## Greenthings (Apr 9, 2007)

Hien said:


> I wonder , that by us asking about the pk situation all over the world, and trace them back to Peru, doesn't that put Isaias in trouble for stepping on some peruvian big toes.




Indeed he is stepping on some Peruvian toes. Possibly some US toes as well, in his next promised post. Isaias knew this before he posted in this thread. He was not asked by anyone on this forum to say anything; the questions by forum members came as a result of what Isaias volunteered to say on Slipper Talk. 

peter


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## isaias m rolando (Apr 17, 2007)

Thank you Peter
You always coment on what you believe is the total knowledge you have in this saga.
But probably there is much more to tell about FACTS and not "rumours" or "somebody coments...". I don't have to protect INRENA or any other source in Peru or the US to "protect" the origin of public information. 
Have a good day Peter


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## John M (May 1, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> OK, remember you ask for this. You want to stay public, it is ok with me. But I thought you were not interested in the true story because it afects some very honorable comercial growers.
> You will have ALL the true . all side by the end of this months. I am waiting some answers from US and elsewhere....
> Thank you again for your coments, please wait to the end of this month.
> Have a good week



Well?


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## isaias m rolando (May 1, 2007)

Sorry for the delay...I wasbussy traveling for a Telemedicine Project for my University and Vanderbilt University. but just got back to Lima and...
CHAPTER 1
" In 1990 visiting Moyobamba and Vivero Agroriente, Renato Villena told me the story that some locals have mentioned to him about a "zapatito azul", That time it was dificult to believe the existence of such a "blue" color in a Phragmipedium, but after the appearence of _Phragmipedium besseae_...anything could be posible, but certainly not a blue pigment in an orchid.
In 1997 a family already had documents for some land at kilometer "K" in the Carretera Fernando Belaunde Terry. One member of this family, Juan Perez Rojas observed a very unusual "zapatito". Insted of having "pasadores" (petals in the well known wallisii and boissierianum), this "blue slipper" had very wide petals and remarcable size and form. The area is close to Venceremos locality, a very weel known area for orchid collectors ( legal and illegal persons). Many Masdevallia for example are well known from this area and described in the last 30 years. One of these orchid collectors was Renato Villena and knew about this new and incredible orchid from that area. He started to study the new Phrag since 1999 and took him and his authorized firm more than two years to obtain enough material to send it to orchid taxonomists and finally Dr Eric Christenson was able to write the original and legal description of the new discovered _Phragmipedium peruvianum_ .
Another well known collector in the area was Mr Lee Moore. Rumors of the blue zapatito took him and his friend Kovach to travel to the area. Another local farmer, Faustino M., also collected some plants and with his family he used to sell orchids in his farm aisde the highway when Mr Kovach arrived, bought some specimens, took them out of the country and illegally introduced the plants to the USA and took them personally to Selby Gardens taxonomists who printed a "special number" of Selbyana to publish first the illegal name of _Phragmipedium kovachii_ After Grand Jury decisions and many unfortunate events in 2002 and 2003, we have clear convictions to three persons in the USA: Mr Michael Kovach, Mr Manuel Arias and his client. Also one institution: Selby Gardens.

(TO BE CONTINUED)


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## kentuckiense (May 1, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> Mr Manuel Arias and his client.



The Phrags in the George Norris "scandal" do not include kovachii.


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## tan (May 2, 2007)

me too !!!


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## Greenthings (May 2, 2007)

kentuckiense said:


> The Phrags in the George Norris "scandal" do not include kovachii.




Isaias made that erroneous statement three weeks ago in post # 14. I corrected him in post # 15.

The USDOJ Publication # 156:03-11-04 Re the Indictment of Manuel Arias and George Norris does not mention Phragmipedium kovachii.

Here is the link to the USDOJ publication: 

http://usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2004/March/04_enrd_156.htm

Those convicted in the Pk case are: 
1) Marie Selby Botanical Gardens Inc.
2) Dr. Wesley Higgins, Director of Systematics at MSBG
3) Michael Kovach


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## Heather (May 2, 2007)

Okay, right. Well, I look forward to the "to be continued" cause I don't think we learned anything new there, did we?


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## John M (May 2, 2007)

Heather said:


> Okay, right. Well, I look forward to the "to be continued" cause I don't think we learned anything new there, did we?



Nope.


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## kentuckiense (May 2, 2007)

It's just Chapter 1, guys. Let's be patient.


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## bwester (May 2, 2007)

I personally, am as excited about it as I was for a sequel to Spice World.


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## Hien (May 2, 2007)

kentuckiense said:


> It's just Chapter 1, guys. Let's be patient.


 I am very patient, however, I was excited thinking about a blue orchid ( similar to the color of meconopsis betonicifolia). 
So the blue we are talking about is similar to the word "blue" or "red" that phalanopsis peoples using to describe something violet/purple.


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## gonewild (May 2, 2007)

Hien said:


> I am very patient, however, I was excited thinking about a blue orchid ( similar to the color of meconopsis betonicifolia).
> So the blue we are talking about is similar to the word "blue" or "red" that phalanopsis peoples using to describe something violet/purple.



A matter of interpretation and translation. To rural Peruvian people a purple flower could be easily described as azul (blue). A very light purple colored flower seen in a group of dark purple flowers would likely be called blanco (white). So don't hold your breath for the white kovachii either.


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## isaias m rolando (May 2, 2007)

COMENTS ABOUT CHAPTER 1

Thanks for the kind coments...and the "other" coments.
Again, Mr Creuzen, you are so wrong about the convictions. I will prove in Chapter Nº 2 what was sent, according to dates, documents and CITES, who and what each of Mr Arias's clients received that year of international scandals in orchid trafic.
All of you would think there is nothing new, but thanks for your patience you will have your facts soon.
Thanks to Hien and Lance for their genuine interpretation about "colors" for local Andean habitants of those regions. For them, a blue is similar to violet. But, as a matter of fact I have new information about the appearence of a second alba PK...yes, definetively I am waiting for a picture of it. Hope to have it soon. I am searching to what happened to the plant and to inform INRENA to follow up this information.
Excuse my ignorance BWESTER, but what is Spice World?
Have a good night


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## NYEric (May 3, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> COMENTS ABOUT CHAPTER 1
> But, as a matter of fact I have new information about the appearence of a second alba PK...yes, definetively I am waiting for a picture of it. Hope to have it soon.


There goes my IRA!


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## Greenthings (May 6, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> COMENTS ABOUT CHAPTER 1
> 
> Thanks for the kind coments...and the "other" coments.
> Again, Mr Creuzen, you are so wrong about the convictions. I will prove in Chapter Nº 2 what was sent, according to dates, documents and CITES, who and what each of Mr Arias's clients received that year of international scandals in orchid trafic.



What a lot of nonsense. 

All the indictments, charges and convictions I have posted on this forum are true and can be found on the USDOJ website under Press Releases. 

For Arias and Norris you will find the following:

In March of 2004 Peruvian Manuel Arias Silva and US citizen George Norris
are charged with “conspiring to smuggle into the United States protected orchid specimens, including specimens of the genus Phragmipedium”
(note, P. kovachii is not mentioned anywhere) 

According to the indictment, Arias sold several shipments of orchids to Norris between January of 1999 and October of 2003. Arias would obtain a CITES permit from INRENA, but include in the shipment species not included on the CITES permit. He would put false labels on them and give Norris a code by which he could identify what the true species was.

Manuel Arias and George Norris were not charged with smuggling or possessing Phragmipedium kovachii (which was not even an option in the period 1999-2002) It is totally false and unfair for you to say that they were convicted in connection with Pk, as you clearly did in an earlier post.

Unless you are addressing another person, my last name is Croezen. Thank you.


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## isaias m rolando (May 6, 2007)

Dear ST Fellows
It seems that Mr Creuzen owns the truth and perhaps my english is not good enough for you to read what you want to read. Mr Creuzen is concluding things that I have never said. Please let me know if I can write in Spanish, so there will be no more "mistakes" interpreting what I have wrote.

CHAPTER 2 IS READY....in spanish

Have a good Sunday


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## gonewild (May 6, 2007)

Isaias,

I can read your Spanish.
Translation is also available online at Babel Fish Translation
It would be excellent if you would post what you write in both Spanish and English. 

Post facts and proof in any language. Members can discuss the translation. You can answer their questions. Forum members want to hear the truth and see the proof you offer.

Puedo leer su español. La traducción es también accesible en línea en [ los pescados Translation[/URL de URL="http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr"]Babel ] ella sería excelente si usted fijaría lo que usted escribe en español e inglés. 

Hechos y prueba del poste en cualquier lengua. Los miembros pueden discutir la traducción. Usted puede contestar a sus preguntas. Los miembros del foro desean oír la verdad y considerar la prueba que usted ofrece.


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## Greenthings (May 6, 2007)

gonewild said:


> Isaias,
> 
> I can read your Spanish.
> Translation is also available online at Babel Fish Translation
> ...



Lance, I agree with you. One can get the general idea, but there are unfortunate changes of meanings; exactly what we do not want to happen.

Here is how babelfish translates your Spanish paragraph:

I can read its Spanish. The translation is also accessible in line in [ the fish Translation[/URL de URL="http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr"]Babel ] she would be excellent if you would fix what you write in English Spanish and. Facts and test of the post in any language. The members can discuss the translation. You can answer your questions. The members of the forum wish to hear the truth and to consider the test that you offer __________________


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## gonewild (May 6, 2007)

Peter,
Yes, there can always be something lost in direct translations. That is why I suggest it be posted and then discussed. If Isaias posts something that is translated incorrectly either by himself or someone or something else he will have an opportunity to explain what he means.

Online translators are not perfect but if you think about the translation as you read it you will understand what it is trying to say.

In the case of his chapter one I don't really see where Isaia's English has made any great errors. He stated what he was going to show proof and made suggestions that the persons with convictions were involved with kovachii plants. Just because the indictment does not include something does not mean that Isaias does not have evidence to show otherwise.

I think Isaias should post his opinions, statements, proof, accusations or whatever he has to say in whatever language he wants to use. Freedom of speech is here for everyone. He should also be prepared to defend any statements he makes.

Everyone has always wanted evidence and proof for rumors and statements surrounding P.kovachii, let's hear it.


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## Greenthings (May 6, 2007)

I have corresponded by private e-mails with Isaias for many years. I guarantee he has no problem with English. 

I for one do not like to see other languages on ST. 

Peter


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## Heather (May 6, 2007)

gonewild said:


> Everyone has always wanted evidence and proof for rumors and statements surrounding P.kovachii, let's hear it.



Yes, PLEASE, let's get on with it already!


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## gonewild (May 6, 2007)

Greenthings said:


> I have corresponded by private e-mails with Isaias for many years. I guarantee he has no problem with English.
> 
> I for one do not like to see other languages on ST.
> 
> Peter



Well, I have had no problem understanding Isaias and I look forward to all of his chapters. What he says seems very clear.


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## John M (May 6, 2007)

What he started in english, he should finish in english. His original accusations were made in english, his "proof" should be posted in english as well. Changing languages in mid-thread seems too much like an attempt to confuse the discussion and avoid providing the solid proof he has promised.


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## SlipperFan (May 6, 2007)

John M said:


> What he started in english, he should finish in english. His original accusations were made in english, his "proof" should be posted in english as well. Changing languages in mid-thread seems too much like an attempt to confuse the discussion and avoid providing the solid proof he has promised.


I agree. It was Isaias who wondered if his English was good enough. No one else...


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## NYEric (May 6, 2007)

Not really caring. I believe we all know about Pk and it's introduction into this country. If there are other international violations there is little we can do about them here. I don't think pointing fingers at people is going to solve the problems of orchid stripping and illegal exports. Just my way of saying let's grow up and hear solutions not problems!


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## Hien (May 6, 2007)

NYEric said:


> Not really caring. I believe we all know about Pk and it's introduction into this country. If there are other international violations there is little we can do about them here. I don't think pointing fingers at people is going to solve the problems of orchid stripping and illegal exports. Just my way of saying let's grow up and hear solutions not problems!


 Solution: An orchid safari adventure land, complete with native guides (provide for local jobs, once it is their living, they will protect the source of income, similar to the effort with parrots), selling seedlings (artificially created in Taiwan, raised in Southeast Asia) at the door before the tourists get a chance to empty their pockets somewhere else.


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## NYEric (May 6, 2007)

OK Hien, go for it!


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## gonewild (May 7, 2007)

Hien said:


> Solution: An orchid safari adventure land, complete with native guides (provide for local jobs, once it is their living, they will protect the source of income, similar to the effort with parrots), selling seedlings (artificially created in Taiwan, raised in Southeast Asia) at the door before the tourists get a chance to emty their pockets somewhere else.



They made a TV program about that place. It was called Fantasy Island.

Seriously, Hien it is a gallant idea but it does not work. The similar efforts with parrots have not helped the local communities improve their lives. In fact it has torn communities apart socially.
Tourism as a tool to protect the environment really only serves to make a few people wealthy and alienate the "poor locals" even further to the point they become hateful toward the subject being protected.


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## Greenthings (May 7, 2007)

gonewild said:


> Tourism as a tool to protect the environment really only serves to make a few people wealthy and alienate the "poor locals" even further to the point they become hateful toward the subject being protected.




Thanks for saying it Lance, I agree with you; having lived there, you know it and probably have seen it first hand.


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## Hien (May 7, 2007)

gonewild said:


> They made a TV program about that place. It was called Fantasy Island.
> 
> Seriously, Hien it is a gallant idea but it does not work. The similar efforts with parrots have not helped the local communities improve their lives. In fact it has torn communities apart socially.
> Tourism as a tool to protect the environment really only serves to make a few people wealthy and alienate the "poor locals" even further to the point they become hateful toward the subject being protected.


 Lance & Peter, 
I should not believe in most of the things I saw on TV (And here I though I am too jaded already), The PBS documentary made it seem so rosey.


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## gonewild (May 7, 2007)

Greenthings said:


> Thanks for saying it Lance, I agree with you; having lived there, you know it and probably have seen it first hand.



I have seen it first hand. I'm sorry to say that I have hundreds of interviews on videotape with local people telling about their problems and grievances with tourism projects and conservation NGOs.
The money just does not trickle down.


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## gonewild (May 7, 2007)

Hien said:


> Lance & Peter,
> I should not believe in most of the things I saw on TV (And here I though I am too jaded already), The PBS documentary made it seem so rosey.



Sorry, TV nature programs are not reality anymore. They in the beginning but not any longer. All fake and scripted.


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## isaias m rolando (May 10, 2007)

It is hapening already
The "others" are acting against my reputation at my university and threatening members of my family. I have a pregnant wife at this moment and she just mentioned to me that the phone and the e-mail are constantly receiving very dirty messages and warnings.
My friends, family and lawyers consulted recomended me to stop all comunications.
I deeply regret to decide not to continue with this. I will only stay as an observer.


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## NYEric (May 10, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> phone and the e-mail are constantly receiving very dirty messages and warnings.


Sorry to hear these things are being inflicted upon you and your family. do keep the emails as records.


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## Hien (May 10, 2007)

isaias m rolando said:


> It is hapening already
> The "others" are acting against my reputation at my university and threatening members of my family. I have a pregnant wife at this moment and she just mentioned to me that the phone and the e-mail are constantly receiving very dirty messages and warnings.
> My friends, family and lawyers consulted recomended me to stop all comunications.
> I deeply regret to decide not to continue with this. I will only stay as an observer.



Ayay yay, Valentino, all of our shooting the breeze in this dark smokey bar, and I am not coming to your tent to night, and making out under the moonlight?:drool: 
And here I am all working up for naught.! Do you really mean that our whole [pk] affair ends at chapter numero uno :sob: 
Better get a cold shower quick , Hien, or all these KI in the meridians will go haywire.
Seriously, Isaias, the safety of yourself & your family should come first. Nothing is really worth it.


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## isaias m rolando (May 21, 2007)

Thanks for all the friends and memebers of ST that have sent public and private messages.
I will keep you posted through my pics. If something happen to me you will see no mkore of my pics


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