# yellow besseae vigor



## ohio-guy (Jan 25, 2008)

Are the flavum besseae the result of a simple recessive trait?
It so, couldn't vigor be bred into them easily by doing a cross of a big improved red besseae with a yellow, then an f1 cross to get 1/4 new robust yellow phrags in the next generation? 
Or are there other problems with fertility? I just always wonder why there are so few yellows, when they are so different and appealing.

Maybe DrRob can give some insight.
Also, why so little flavum breeding in crosses....are the results too often unsatisfactory?
Or was the flavum only more recently discovered, and therefore not fully utilized yet?


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## NYEric (Jan 26, 2008)

I know there is only one original flavum besseae so ...


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## Kyle (Jan 26, 2008)

To my knowledge, what you've outlined is a way to increase the vigor in yellow besseaes. I think the reason why it isn't done very often is money, the time to do it takes 4 or 5 years. Actually, I guess there could be people doing it and we just don't know. There is a plant out there (I think its in bloomfields catalouge) called 'hidden agenda', its is red split for yellow.

Another way of speeding up the process (but maybe not achieving the desired results) is to cross a red and yellow, then taking the red offspring and crossing it back to a yellow. You'll get 50% yellow instead of 25%.

There was a thread about a year back on this.

Kyle


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## ohio-guy (Jan 26, 2008)

Any idea how to find the thread?


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## Kyle (Jan 26, 2008)

Yeah, I just spent 10 minutes looking for it...

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2864&highlight=split

Kyle


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## ohio-guy (Jan 26, 2008)

Thanks, I was hunting myself too.


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## NYEric (Jan 26, 2008)

Interesting thread, I forgot that Dean (Paphinesss) had mentioned that vigorous plant. I have to check w/ John Chant [if he ever gets back to me ].


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## paphiness (Jan 28, 2008)

A number of points touched on previously, so here's my contribution to the thread:

(1) My besseae var. flavum 'Juggernaut' has a very long waiting list for divisions. It originated from the Orchid Zone, and was described to me as the most vigorous flavum they had seen. I doubt that divisions will be available for quite some time.

(2) I have other very nice, multi-growth, vigorous, besseae var. flavums that I *might* be convinced to part with. Serious offers only, please. Starting price range is ~$300. Please email me directly at [email protected].

(3) When you see "Hidden" in the name of a plant, it means that it (probably) came from OZ, as that is what they use to denote a heterozygous state for a given trait. In other words, it is a recessive carrier for a given allele of a gene. If these terms are confusing, please check out "A Gentle Intro to Orchid Genetics" here:
http://paphinessorchids.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22&Itemid=63

(4) As for breeding vigor into flavums: it seems simple on paper, but in practice it has proven difficult. Phrag. besseae var. flavum is hard to get seed from in crosses. In theory, the gene giving rise to the wild-type red/mutant yellow pigmentation could be tightly linked to gene(s) required for vigorous growth, and you would then need to grow out many, many hundreds, maybe thousands, of plants over a couple of generations before you found an individual that happened to unlink the color gene allele from the vigor gene allele.


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## NYEric (Jan 28, 2008)

Thanx Dean; that'll be the next thing I get after the St. Ouen 'Sweet Ice'!!! :crazy:


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## Jason Fischer (Feb 1, 2008)

Dean is right. 

I just finished separating some compots of charlesworthii 1/2 albino siblings, and so far the 20% or so that came out albino are about 1/2 the size of the regular charlesworthii, which means the goal of putting better vigor into the albinos did not work among the few that I have. If I had thousands of plants to work with, perhaps I would have been more lucky!


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## rdlsreno (Feb 4, 2008)

I do have some problem in growing them! Really needs RO water. They are little less forgiving.

Ramon


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## paphlady (Feb 11, 2008)

Jason Fischer said:


> Dean is right.
> 
> I just finished separating some compots of charlesworthii 1/2 albino siblings, and so far the 20% or so that came out albino are about 1/2 the size of the regular charlesworthii, which means the goal of putting better vigor into the albinos did not work among the few that I have. If I had thousands of plants to work with, perhaps I would have been more lucky!



Jason, do you mean the flower size or the plant size is half of the regular ones?


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## NYEric (Feb 11, 2008)

I'm sure it's plant size.


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## paphlady (Feb 11, 2008)

OZ had crossed a regular red besseae to a flavum many years ago. Last I know, they bloomed out some flavums about 3-4 yrs ago that were the result of the best "half flavum" back to a flavum. Dean, is 'Juggernaut' one of these?


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## paphiness (Feb 11, 2008)

OZ has done a number of crosses to produce besseae var. flavums, as I've seen a number of different "Z" numbers (i.e., their cross designation usually starts with Z). 'Juggernaut' is definitely produced by OZ, but I don't recall which Z number it is. The waiting list on 'Juggernaut' is so long now, that I figure it'll be at least seven years before divisions will become available should anyone want to get on the list now!

In any case, I do have some other multi-growth besseae flavums from OZ (reluctantly) available. They are priced in the $300+ range. If anyone is interested, please email me directly at [email protected].


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## paphlady (Feb 12, 2008)

NYEric said:


> I'm sure it's plant size.



I guess 3 consecutive nights of just 5 hrs of sleep is catching up to me. :snore:


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## Drorchid (Feb 14, 2008)

ohio-guy said:


> Are the flavum besseae the result of a simple recessive trait?
> It so, couldn't vigor be bred into them easily by doing a cross of a big improved red besseae with a yellow, then an f1 cross to get 1/4 new robust yellow phrags in the next generation?
> Or are there other problems with fertility? I just always wonder why there are so few yellows, when they are so different and appealing.
> 
> ...




I am working on it as we are speaking....

We already have some yellow x red besseae's planted out. I will select the most vigorous of those, sib them together, and probably cross them to a yellow beseae, and voila, we will have a certain percentage of vigorous (and hopefully larger flowers) yellow besseae's.

I have been doing quite a lot of breeding with yellow besseae's, but I prefer to use our 4N awarded yellow beseae: besseae flavum 'Taiyo' AM/AOS (one of the best crosses thus far are our Saint Ouen's was made with 'Taiyo'), but I think the main reason you see more crosses made with the red besseae is like you said availability.

Robert


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## NYEric (Feb 15, 2008)

I have 17 besseae flavum crosses; they're not that uncommon you have to search around. I was mistaken in a previous estimation of crosses by The Orchid Zone, Terry makes a lot of crosses it's just a little difficult to obtain them!


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## ohio-guy (Feb 15, 2008)

hey NYEric
How successful are the crosses you have? In your experience, what should I look for if I want a nice really yellow ....yellow like a "yellow cab"which is almost orange, not a pale butter yellow?
And more importantly, if _you_ have one, when it is ready to divide, do you have a piece you want to share or trade?
(Ohio)Eric


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## paphlady (Feb 15, 2008)

Drorchid said:


> I have been doing quite a lot of breeding with yellow besseae's, but I prefer to use our 4N awarded yellow beseae: besseae flavum 'Taiyo' AM/AOS (one of the best crosses thus far are our Saint Ouen's was made with 'Taiyo'), but I think the main reason you see more crosses made with the red besseae is like you said availability.
> 
> Robert



I think the better size and shape of the red besseae is more likely the reason, not so much the availability.


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## Scooby5757 (Feb 15, 2008)

NYEric said:


> I have 17 besseae flavum crosses; they're not that uncommon you have to search around. I was mistaken in a previous estimation of crosses by The Orchid Zone, Terry makes a lot of crosses it's just a little difficult to obtain them!



Where are they going?


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## Heather (Feb 15, 2008)

NYEric, have you found that they live long enough to get big enough to divide?


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## NYEric (Feb 19, 2008)

I have some that were dividible [sic?] when I got them. The hybrids grow much faster than straight besseae flavum. I know where to get a 2 growth one but thats about the biggest and even that's pricey.


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