# C. acaule



## TheLorax (Aug 9, 2007)

I just finished reading another thread started by another new member. C. acaule was a plant that I had somewhat discounted being able to grow here where I live year round because I'm pretty sure I've seen this pink acaule growing in situ on my own property up north and did not believe I could duplicate those conditions down here. Don't ask me if that is the orchid I have up north or not for sure because it is finished blooming by the time school lets out when we go up for a few weeks so in all these years I've only seen them in bloom twice and it was totally fluke I was up there because of deaths in the family in mid May. I have seen both pink and yellow orchids on my property. Anyway, I can't duplicate what's going on up north here where I live year round but I think I might have a chance trying an acaule because I read these comments contributed by Eric Muehlbauer-



> As for light, dappled woodland light is the best. I have mine in open oak woods...when the plants first emerge in late April, they have essentially full sun. By bloom, the oaks have leafed out. But keep in mind that oaks offer open shade...lots of patches of sun for varying times during the course of the day. I have heard that for pot culture, a mix of 50:50 sand and milled sphagnum works well...but I have always grown them in my LI soil, even when trying them in pots....Take care, Eric



I'd like to try one plant but I'd like the area I create to be able to accommodate a few should I find I am able to successfully grow these plants. My thoughts are to dig out a small area and to place roofing liner down. Then I could fill the area with the appropriate sand and sphagnum peat. I have the oaks and hickories to provide the dappled shade mentioned by him. Question, should the tube sand (not play sand) be rinsed before added to the hole? Should a few perforations be made in the liner to allow for some drainage? 

Note to self to avoid digging around for info in that other thread- "Use ordinary builders sand...not playsand. It must be silica sand...much of the Playsand sold is actually oolitic aragonite, a Ca carbonate compound...certain, probably instant death for acaule."

A member named kentuckiense suggested several nurseries but the first two were sold out as mentioned by the other new member and the third was in Belgium and I am not familiar with them anyway and would not feel comfortable ordering from them. How does one go about getting on a waiting list to purchase plants when a nursery is sold out or how does one go about pre-ordering a year or so in advance? Simply by contacting the nurseries and respectfully asking? 

I checked out the site recommended by a member named Rick for availability of acaule. He mentioned http://www.orchidmix.com/cyps.htm
They have acaule in a near bloom size and a bloom size for only $40 and $55 respectively. Is bigger and more mature better when ordering this plant? If I place an order with him would I ask for the plant to be shipped to me in the pot in the event the medium was injected with mycorrhizal fungi as opposed to bare root? 

An organization was mentioned by the name of Gore Orchid Conservatory. Do they sell cyps and does anyone have a link to them please? 

Next question, I am leery of alleged "salvage" plants. How does one know if plants being sold are actually rescues and not field collected and being sold under the guise of having been salvaged? I wouldn't even consider taking a Cyp from my own property up north for colony gene pool concerns mentioned by that kentuckiense (there were only about 50 plants on my property of the pink and right around the same number of the yellow) as well as losses of specialized pollinators and I would absolutely cringe if I found out I had purchased a plant that was field collected regardless of whether it was from someone's own property or not. It's not in me to directly or indirectly promote field collection. Anyway, is this simply something that comes with time and getting a chance to allow a nursery's reputation to surface? 

And what about ordering from a nursery such as this-
http://www.troymeyers.com/
Supposedly, they flask on a special order basis. Not that I know what to do with an orchid that has been de-flasked but I did find one site that offered some direction that may or may not be within my skill set-
http://www.cypripedium.de/forum/Deflasking of Cypripedium seedlings.pdf

Previously I had asked for suggestions on books to purchase. I caught this suggestion in that other thread from the member named Rick, "Try getting John Tullock's book Growing Hardy Orchids. There are allot of soil (and comprehensive culture) recommendations for many species including acule in there." This sounds very good to me. Would anyone be able to recommend any others?


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## Candace (Aug 9, 2007)

I'm not a cyp. grower so can only answer your one question of Matt Gore's site which is www.goreorchids.com/

He's a member here so you could also private message him or contact him through his site if he doesn't respond directly to your thread.


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## TheLorax (Aug 9, 2007)

Thank you for the link. He doesn't currently have anything I would be interested in trying right now but inventories do change from time to time so I will peek back from time to time. 

I found this online at a cp forum when googling for cultural requirements of C. acaule-



> With five plants you can hope that one might survive. More than that would be unusual. If they all die then that might not reflect on you - it is just very hard to adapt wild-grown Cyp. acaule to cultivation, probably due to the quite profound fungal symbiosis that wild plants achieve. Plants propagated in vitro have lived their lives (outside of flask anyway) without such quite intimate contact with the fungus and can cope better with transplanting and so forth. But they are very expensive.
> 
> Soil can be either organic or mineral. I don't like the sound of the soil on the website linked to above. Peat and spagnum derivatives are not ideal in cultivation. There IS a semi-bog-growing form of C. acaule, but as yours come from woodland - along with all I have heard of in cultivation - don't attempt that as they will just rot away. Go for a humousy, acidic, pine-foresty mix with very good drainage:
> 
> ...



Interesting that mention is made of a "semi-bog-growing form of C. acaule" as opposed to a woodland form of the plant. This person recommends pine needles in the medium. The pine needles actually sound as if they would be a fine addition. Presumably, any plant I purchase (not interested in purchasing field grown plants) will be the "semi-bog-growing form of C. acaule" mentioned by this person, am I correct?


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## Candace (Aug 9, 2007)

Also, the search feature at the top of the page may be of use to you. If you click on the search button you can type in acaule or another type of cyp. that you're interested in and then the search parameters to find other threads about the subject. I know there have been several good threads on cyp. culture. Hope that helps.


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## TheLorax (Aug 9, 2007)

Hi Candace, so far I have read 2/3rds of all threads in the Cypripedium Forum here. I did this before I made my first post. Somehow I missed the one started by that other new member JB Orchidguy but I found that last night and that's the thread from here by us where I pulled up the information I quoted above from Eric Muehlbauer on acaule. The other post that came up was fluke from when I googled and it happened to be a thread started by that same new member here on the same plant only at a different forum. I'm trying. I just am not too good with search engines. Not too good with computers in general but I try.


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## Candace (Aug 9, 2007)

Oh, o.k. I didn't know if you had tried it. And I thought maybe you'd get some answers right away using it. Many people are at work and tied up so you'll probably get some answers soon. I'm not great with search engines either, you're not alone;>


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## parvi_17 (Aug 9, 2007)

Okay - Cyp. acaule is a very difficult plant to grow. It took me several tries to get it right. You should only attempt it if you have a few years' experience with hardy terrestrials - not necessarily Cyps, as it grows very differently from other Cyps. If you're going to grow it artificially (ie not introducing plants into an established natural growing site), I would recommend buying artificially propagated plants that have been nursery grown - they will be easier to establish. The plant needs a large hole to be dug and filled to the top 2" or so with pure acidic sand that cannot contain any lime whatsoever. Note that many sands you buy do contain lime so look out for that - perhaps collecting from coniferous woods is a better idea. You can soak the sand in a water/vinegar solution to further acidify it over night. You want a pH of 3-4.5. A pH of over 5 will quickly kill the plant. Then you'll spread the rhizome over the sand and cover with a combination of pine duff and partially composted pine needles, which you'll probably have to collect from a forest. Finally, mulch with some conifer needles to form a slight mound. I recommend planting in a raised bed or slight slope as it is sensitive to wet. A location with dappled shade is best. When growing, keep slightly moist the first season to establish the plant. Never fertilize and always use RO, distilled or rain water, mixed with vinegar (2 tbsps per 1 gallon water). After the first season, you don't need to water the plant, as it is quite drought-tolerant. Only water if it is a very abnormally dry year, and check the pH often, using the vinegar solution to adjust when necessary.


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## TheLorax (Aug 9, 2007)

I found a lot of places I can get information online when I started googling but I don't have the time to join a gazillion forums so I picked this forum to join after reading a sampling of threads from other sites. This one seemed to have a diverse mix of mature members with few kiddies repeatedly getting totally off topic. I found the search engine here too and probably should have simply posted some of my questions right in that acaule thread started by that JB Orchidguy but I didn't want to get involved over there. I happen to believe I know a little bit about that situation and he "traded" those plants from a 16 or 17 year old kid who dug them up from his parents' property. Based on photos of the property that I have seen, my best guess is there were only about 25 orchids growing on the site. The other deal is that I caught in that post that this JB Orchidguy was asked how his 5 field collected acaule were doing and he didn't reply. I suspect they're dead which is a shame. No sense dredging up a thread like that by posting a new reply in it because evidently the member here named kentuckiense properly identified that new member who disappeared off the face of the earth for what he is. So, I think I'll stay here and get help here. I've got time on my hands to sort this out. Probably until next spring when the few plants I intend to order will be shipped. Lots of experience here even if most aren't in a position to respond immediately. Until just recently, I used to work full time myself. It certainly was difficult finding time to get online for myself with kids who needed the computers to get online for homework and such in the evenings. 

You're a sweetie for giving me the heads up that most people are tied up at work though, I do appreciate that.


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## TheLorax (Aug 9, 2007)

Oops, posting while parvi_17 was posting, really sorry about that. 

Although I did order two C. arietinum, I have not ordered an acaule yet. Should I just stick to trying those two arietinum and maybe a kentuckiense and a reginae for now? You know, just because I want to try a plant doesn't mean I have to do it right now this instant. I'd rather wait if you think I'm going to destroy it. 

Thanks for your comments. I could easily get my hands on as much pine duff and pine needles as I want because my property up north is predominantly coniferous forest. There are stands of white pine around here on people's property so I can also easily get white pine needles. Your growing instructions are very good, I don't know that I would be able to be constantly testing the pH more so because in the summer we are gone a lot and if there was a pH crash in a raised bed because of heavy rains (happens quite frequently around here), I take it that could kill acaule?


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## parvi_17 (Aug 9, 2007)

Well, if you have the materials, it's not like you HAVE to have experience (I was a little extreme in my last post), it's just handy. This plant is hard to grow in garden conditions, but in a specially created and maintained environment it is quite easy once established. If you want to try it, by all means give it a try; you'll have to try it sometime, right? The pH crash could be a serious problem, and for that reason you might need to create a microclimate for the acaules to avoid it. To do this, you would select a large area on your property, preferably populated by coniferous trees (though deciduous would do as well, or even large shrubs) and have all the soil in the upper level (top 12-16") amended with or replaced by the acidic sand, then covered in the pine duff/needles. This obviously is a lot of work, perhaps I'm being a little extreme by suggesting it, but it may be the only way if pH crashing is a problem. You could also build an alpine house (or even just a simple frame of modest size) or grow in pots. What I did is I just grew it in a raised bed in the same way explained above, but my climate is quite dry, so a pH crash isn't a problem.


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## TheLorax (Aug 9, 2007)

I only have a deciduous woodland here where I live year round. It's up north where the coniferous forest and coniferous woodlands are. I did begin creating a windbreak of coniferous trees on this property. I used Pinus, strobus, P. banksiansa, and P. resinosa but they're all juveniles and not producing much duff or needles at all so collecting from this property is out. I do have a neighbor who has quite a few strobus on her property who likes her messy needles "cleaned up" and that's where I've been getting my needles to mulch some of my CP bogs. 

I don't think you were extreme at all in your comments. I never even thought of a pH crash until you mentioned raised bed combined with an optimal pH of 3-4.5 with a pH greater than 5.0 being the kiss of death to acaule. Glad you mentioned that and good timing too because 4 days ago my rain gauges told me we received 4.5 inches of rain in under 3 hours, two days ago we received another 2-3", last night we received another 2-3" and low and behold I had a small pond crash. Nothing that a little baking soda couldn't fix but if I hadn't been home to deal with it, the critters in there would have been dead and I'm babysitting those fish for somebody else. That's way too much rain for small volumes of water or soil to handle particularly when one is in the habit of taking off for a few weeks at a time during the summer. Truly glad you mentioned the pH. 

I'm not in a position to amend a large area of this property. Maybe someday when the trees in the windbreak begin taking off I will have that micro climate of which you speak. My guess would be about 10 years on that area.

What's an alpine house? Not that I'm up to one this year but I'd be interested in knowing what one is and how it applies to acaule.


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## parvi_17 (Aug 9, 2007)

An alpine house is essentially a greenhouse in which conditions of an alpine or subalpine area are maintained using special equipment. A lot of botanical gardens and serious hobbiests use these who operate in areas where such conditions do not occur naturally, or conditions occur in their area that do not in the natural habitat (such as heavy rainfall). Note that C. acaule probably does occur somewhere in your area, but in dense forest where it is protected from the heavy rains, which is why I suggested the microclimate. Alpine houses are expensive to build and maintain but are great if you are very serious in cultivating Cyps and other hardy terrestrials. You could also just build a simple coldframe or shadehouse, which would protect the plants from the rains and would be cheap to build, with no operating costs. If you are serious about Cyps, I would recommend that you buy Cribb's book, The Genus Cypripedium. It's a little outdated now what with the massive number of hybrids that have become available recently which are barely mentioned, but all of the cultural and taxonomic information within is completely valid. It explains in detail the cultivation of Cyps (including all of the rarer species) in each of the situations I've mentioned.


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## TheLorax (Aug 9, 2007)

Thanks for the explanation. I can't afford something like that. I'm sort of embarrassed to say what we just spent on a new greenhouse what with permits, excavation costs, pouring the concrete and getting the drains in, connecting it to utilities, and then there was the little surprise of having to buy a swamp cooler. I still don't have all the proper shelving and other accessories in there yet because every time I turn around there is something else to buy so it's going to sit half empty for a while. If I ultimately go beyond being a native plant entry-level hobbiest with orhids, an Alpine house is going to have to wait until after the kids are out of college and that's a long ways off. For now, a simple cold frame might be in my budget. A simple cold frame has the added benefit of having no operating costs. 

I'll have to re-think trying an acaule. You didn't discourage me from trying one, you just gave me good points to consider. Maybe I could work at looking for an appropriate location for a natural looking raised bed out in the woodland that might be able to accommodate one or two some day. Something that wouldn't stick out like a sore thumb.


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## parvi_17 (Aug 9, 2007)

I'm glad I was able to give you some useful input. There are, as I'm sure you already know, other Cyp species that are easy to establish in the garden. I've got C. pubescens, makasin, reginae and macranthos growing in my flower beds, along with several hybrids (which are fantastic plants). My selection of garden-worthy species is limited only to the sources I have nearby as I have yet to splurge on having some shipped in from elsewhere - there are other easier species too such as kentuckiense, calceolus (which isn't really easy but not hard either) and formosanum, and probably others too I've forgotten about. If you can get hybrids though, make an investment as they are wonderful!


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## TheLorax (Aug 9, 2007)

Yes, you gave me a lot of good things to think about. 

Backing up a little bit because I evidently got hung up on your comments about an Alpine house when dollar signs started getting stuck on my brain but you wrote this, "If you are serious about Cyps, I would recommend that you buy Cribb's book, The Genus Cypripedium. It's a little outdated now what with the massive number of hybrids that have become available recently which are barely mentioned, but all of the cultural and taxonomic information within is completely valid. It explains in detail the cultivation of Cyps (including all of the rarer species) in each of the situations I've mentioned."

Cribb's book will be perfectly fine as I'm not all that serious into any one orchid genus more so very serious about any plant that is native. It's the cultural and taxonomic information I'd be interested in. I'm definitely into straight species and naturally occurring hybrids than I am into the cultivars hitting the market. 



> There are, as I'm sure you already know, other Cyp species that are easy to establish in the garden. I've got C. pubescens, makasin, reginae and macranthos growing in my flower beds, along with several hybrids (which are fantastic plants). My selection of garden-worthy species is limited only to the sources I have nearby as I have yet to splurge on having some shipped in from elsewhere - there are other easier species too such as kentuckiense, calceolus (which isn't really easy but not hard either) and formosanum, and probably others too I've forgotten about. If you can get hybrids though, make an investment as they are wonderful!


 I'm not all that familiar with Cyps other than I'd know one if I saw one and I am familiar with which ones are indigenous or not to my county. It's pretty bad when you own property and only know that one of the cyps growing on it is pink and might be acaule and one is yellow. Anyway, I garden down here not up there and use a book written by two men for whom I have the utmost respect, Floyd Swink (deceased) and Jerry Wilhelm. I've volunteered under both of them in the past. They wrote the book "Plants of the Chicago Region" and it's my Bible so to speak. They have documented populations of acaule, parviflorum, calceolus pubescens, candidum, and reginae throughout my county. Interestingly enough, of the species you mentioned above that are easy to establish, I do want to try the reginae and the kentuckiense you suggested. Someone else suggested parviflorum so I'll be checking into that one too. As far as the hybrids, tempting because of hybrid vigor and all but I'm thinking I'd rather try my hand at a 4-5 different species by getting those down pat so they will survive beyond the magical three years before branching out. Right now I'm narrowing down which 4 or 5 I will be trying to grow. The only one that I am for sure going to try is arietinum because I just ordered two of those. 

Other hardy native terrestrial orchids that I will be exploring for this property will be Platanthera, Goodyera, and Aplectrum. Actually, any other orchids that I might be able to grow here that would be indigenous to Northern Illinois such as Galearis and Liparis will be checked into also. I do have Spiranthes here as well as Calopogon. Then there are my inside interests... so many plants, so little time.


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## parvi_17 (Aug 9, 2007)

TheLorax said:


> so many plants, so little time.



I know exactly what you mean. Definately you should check out Cribb's book if you like Cyps; another good one is "Growing Hardy Orchids" by John Tullock, which has an entire section on C. acaule in fact, but covers many hardy genera with an emphasis on Cyps and Bletilla. With species Cyps, by far the easiest is Cyp. parviflorum var. pubescens. I have quite a few of these in my garden. Cyp. parviflorum var. parviflorum is very similar to var. makasin which I grow - they are both like pubescens but smaller. All three grow pretty much the same. The other ones you mentioned are great too, though arietinum I've heard is difficult (I think I already told you that); I have no experience with it but would try it if I had access to it. You also mentioned Cyp. candidum - one of my favorite species but hard to come by. If you ever get one, grow it with grasses as it likes more sun but not full sun; it naturalizes well with grass. A good substitute for it is C. x andrewsii, which I'm currently trying to get my hands on.


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## SlipperFan (Aug 9, 2007)

TheLorax, you asked about Troy Meyers Conservatory. I've purchased a bunch of plants from him, at several different times. I think I've gotten good value and excellent service from him. I'd certainly recommend him to anyone who is willing to grow species from seedlings or flask.


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## TheLorax (Aug 9, 2007)

"Growing Hardy Orchids" by John Tullock was the other book recommended to me. I ordered it last night along with another publication titled, "Wild Orchids Across North America" by Keenan more so because I wanted to get a feel for the native plant communities in which they grew. I must admit my husband picked up two books for me for the few indoor orchids I have. One is "The Complete Guide to Orchids" endorsed by the American Orchid Society which looks ho hum for my purposes and the other is "Growing Orchids" by Ritterhausen and I haven't even opened that book up to take a peek. I can probably pick up the information I need for jewel orchids online so no big deal. I've got the Cribb's book on my list to order the next time I go to Amazon. Thanks much again for that suggestion. I should be good to go now for Cyp books between the two of those plus the one I selected. 

Say parvi, I notice you live in Canada. Do you by any chance have a permit to import orchids that are an appendix II? That arietinum is a II and the man who owns the nursery over in the UK is a friend of mine who grows CPs who I met at Kew a long time ago. He's come over here and stayed with us with his whole family a few times and they're wonderful people. We're going back to stay with them next summer. You should see what the Brits can grow on a postage size lot! He doesn't have a lot of the arietinum but he had offered three to me for a very good price. I wanted only one because I was told here that they're difficult but he was pushing me to take all three to experiment growing them under different conditions. We settled on two for me which leaves one. I'm relatively confident he would sell it to you at the same price I'm paying which is £25 but he'd have costs that will probably be high shipping just one plant out to Cananda. I don't know what the exchange rate is off hand but it's usually not in our favor. 

Cyp candidum I haven't checked into yet. I'm getting there between cleaning out cabinets and closets here, cooking, popping in here to see what's going on in my threads, and driving kids around. I'll go check out the C. x andrewsii per your suggestion. 

I was given two Bletilla striata from a friend who said to keep them contained because they'd take off. So far so good on those. They bloomed an attractive medium purple but I dead headed them because they seemed to produce a decent quantity of seed. I think they're Asian but they were a gift. 

Hi SlipperFan, I don't quite know if I'm ready for de-flasking just yet. I re-read that article on de-flasking and I dunno. I just backed out of trying to grow acaule so I'm not exactly a risk taker. Maybe if I have somebody to walk me through the process of growing cyps from seedlings next year. A topic for another thread some day in the dead of winter I suppose.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Aug 9, 2007)

OK....a few things based on my experience. First- you mentioned a liner. I'd avoid that. Although I have heard about acaule growing in "bog" conditions, and once saw one blooming by a streamside, overall, I have found them to prefer very dry conditions. I have seen wild acaule's come back and bloom the year after they had 3 continuous months of no rain at all. Secondly, salvage plants are perfectly OK, ethically, although I'd agree that you can't trust just anybody. Check Carson Whitlow's CypHaven (on the Orchid Mall)..he usually puts out a new list at this time of year, and his salvaged plants are as kosher as can be. Several of my acaule's were salvaged plants from the Atlanta area. In my case, that was an advantage- they were pre-adapted to the heat of a LI summer...on the other hand, acaules from the north do not do well in our heat. Search you area thoroughly in late May, to see if acaule grows anywhere in your area. First, if the soil is the same, it will do OK with you. If not, then dig up as much soil as you can transport, and use that as your base. Rather than use a liner, sink a large pot into the ground (cheap nusery can type) and fill it with natural soil for acaule. I used to pollinate mine- sent some to Try Meyers, but they didn't work out. Haven't had enough blooms in recent years to pollinate again. Take care, Eric


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## TheLorax (Aug 9, 2007)

That's what I get for walking away from the computer to try to eat... another good post came in.

Hi Eric- I pretty much got cold feet and talked myself out of trying acaule. I'll check with that Carson Whitlow of CypHaven and if I see any acaule show up available as salvage from anywhere around where I garden, I'll revisit trying to grow one. I have first-hand bad experiences with southern as opposed to northern races of the same species so I understand exactly what you mean by trying to locate a plant that would be from a location similar to mine. Location location location, just like what realtors try to drum into our heads.


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## TheLorax (Aug 9, 2007)

Say parvi, look for your x andrewsii here-
http://www.orchidmix.com/cyps.htm

I just spotted the plant you were looking for thanks to Eric M in another thread.


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## parvi_17 (Aug 9, 2007)

Hey TheLorax,

Unfortunately I do not have a CITES permit at this time; this is something I need to get in the future but cannot afford it right now. I have actually found a few sources for x andrewsii, but they all either require a CITES permit or have high shipping costs. I'll get one eventually; I'm just waiting 'till I am a little more flush and I can buy enough plants to make the shipping worth it. Thanks for the link though! Oh, and by the way, I have the book by Ritterhausen too; great book. One more thing: if you are into tropical slippers, Cribb has released three versions of his book "The Genus Paphiopedilum" which are all REALLY good, and another really good one by him is "Slipper Orchids of Vietnam".


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## TheLorax (Aug 10, 2007)

Good to know the Ritterhausen book is a keeper. I sort of browsed through the first one he bought me and thought, "Oh, that's a nice picture book for a coffee table" and didn't bother looking at the other book which you say is a great book. 

Since I have a particular fondness for mottled leaf paphs, please tell me which of the three versions of Cribb's book "The Genus Paphiopedilum" to look for. I will order one of them along with his other book "The Genus Cypripedium". I am going to take a pass on his "Slipper Orchids of Vietnam" for right now. I grow my paphs in a bathroom of all places. Our home has humidity of around 35% during the winter but in that particular bathroom my husband takes a shower every morning and at night I run the steam shower for my plants. My bet is the humidity in there is somewhere around 40-50% most of the time which they seem to like. There's something I love about the flowers of my paphiopedilums. Most of them bloom twice a year which is an added bonus for me. 

I hear you on the CITES. The other deal with that type of permitting is that they really check your background thoroughly. At least here in the US they do. You may or may not be aware of this but I believe seed of Appendix II species should be ok for you to import without a permit. Please check this out though before you do anything. I believe there to exist a weight limit of x grams.


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## parvi_17 (Aug 10, 2007)

Oops I got confused with the Paph books - Cribb only made two. Get the second edition, as it is more current. It cost me $170 though!


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## TheLorax (Aug 10, 2007)

I'm in need of some smelling salts here-
http://www.orchidsbooks.com/book.asp?id=100&look=look

And now I'm in need of a defibrillator-
http://www.amazon.com/Genus-Cypripedium-Botanical-Magazine-Monograph/dp/0881924032

John Tullock's book was only around $20 and Philip Keenan's book was only around $30. I can afford $50 for two books. $500 for two books would really be pushing it. You must have bought your books a while ago. Looks as if they've gone up in price. I don't think I will be owning a copy of either of those books any time soon. I think I'm done book shopping now  Time for me to get off the fainting couch and go back outside to pull some more weeds while it's still cool out there.


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## parvi_17 (Aug 10, 2007)

Oh wow the Cyp book really went up in price. 2 years ago I paid $60 for it... The Paph one I did pay $170 for though. I believe they're both out of print now that's why.


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## TheLorax (Aug 10, 2007)

(Sigh) I will not be getting either of his books. Must wait for a new edition of both.


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## TheLorax (Aug 12, 2007)

Unexpected change of direction here. I am going to be receiving a gift of an acaule. The plant is a Wisconsin genotype from Marinette County. The parent plants were salvage plants that were legally collected when a road was widened. I am told the plant is a bloom size. He indicated he would also give me a few Goodyera pubescens. I don't recall where he stated the Goodyera was from. 

parvi 17- if I send you a private message with my personal e-mail address, would you be able to photograph the pages of the Cribb book that cover acaule for me and e-mail them to me? I don't know that you even have a digital camera or the time to take photos but if you do, I would be greatly appreciative. I tried an interlibrary loan and evidently my public library system does not have either one of his books.

Eric Muehlbauer- you mentioned sinking a large nursery style pot in the ground. Would you please be more specific. Are we talking a 5 gallon, 10 gallon, or larger? I have a location in mind and the area is somewhere around 50% shade. Does this sound ok to you? As far as digging up natural soil, I can dig a little bit from my own property, maybe a few gallons. What other medium could I use to mix with about 2 gallons of natural soil? And this pot that will be stuck in the ground... does it stay in the ground year round or do you want me to lift it out of the ground and move it into my heated garage for the winter where the temps are not allowed to drop below 38° F?


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## goldenrose (Aug 12, 2007)

Great gift!


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## TheLorax (Aug 12, 2007)

Yes, but somewhat premature on the acaule because I got cold feet the more I read. He didn't know I had decided against trying an acaule for a few years. He just heard I was interested and wants me to go for it. That plant I will be receiving this fall. Time to get out the stakes and chicken wire so the squirrels don't get into the area.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Aug 12, 2007)

I used a 3 gal nusery can...(in my NYC yard). 5 gal would have been better. I did not use a soil mix. I dug up enough soil from my LI property to fill the can, then sank it into the ground- permanently. The acaule's eventually died, not because of the soil, but because my location got overgrown by other plants (azaleas, Japanese maple, and Aesculus) and became too shady for them. C. acaule must have some sun to bloom- best situation is with open trees overhead, so that it gets continual patches of sun during the day, alternating with shade. Direct sun is OK in early spring before trees leaf out. Take care, Eric


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## TheLorax (Aug 13, 2007)

I'll go for a minimum of a 5 gallon and if at all possible, I'll try to get a 10 gallon. I might just have a 10 gallon here from a Pagoda Dogwood I planted this past spring. 

I'll switch locations to an area that has more dappled shade. Leaving it in the ground year round sounds wonderful to me. I do need to enclose it in staked chicken wire. Squirrels are already beginning to do their thing with hickory nuts. 

Thank you very much for all of your help. Guess I'll be going for my first Cyp here shortly. I sure hope it does well.


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## parvi_17 (Aug 13, 2007)

TheLorax said:


> Unexpected change of direction here. I am going to be receiving a gift of an acaule. The plant is a Wisconsin genotype from Marinette County. The parent plants were salvage plants that were legally collected when a road was widened. I am told the plant is a bloom size. He indicated he would also give me a few Goodyera pubescens. I don't recall where he stated the Goodyera was from.
> 
> parvi 17- if I send you a private message with my personal e-mail address, would you be able to photograph the pages of the Cribb book that cover acaule for me and e-mail them to me? I don't know that you even have a digital camera or the time to take photos but if you do, I would be greatly appreciative. I tried an interlibrary loan and evidently my public library system does not have either one of his books.



Yeah, I can do that, no problem. Nice gift, by the way!


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## TheLorax (Aug 13, 2007)

Thank you parvi.


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## TheLorax (Aug 16, 2007)

I have been given this exact planter/water feature from a neighbor for free-
http://www.maccourt.com/products/ponds/pp3814.html

Somewhat larger than the 3-5 gallon recommended but I could take a 1/2 inch drill and go at the bottom of it to provide proper drainage. Think this would work for one plant if I add more soil from an area in which cyps grow? 

I do have a 10 gallon pot here that I could also sink in the ground but I keep looking at this 34 gallon patio water garden and thinking that it might be better just in case I do ok with the acaule and want to plant another one in the future. I guess I'm thinking along the lines of adding another plant at some point in time.


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## TheLorax (Aug 21, 2007)

One of the books I ordered came in. I've got Keenan's "Wild Orchids Across North America" in my hands. Still waiting for the other book to come but at least I've got a book for the road. Very please. Te book looks good.


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## TheLorax (Sep 3, 2007)

I was able to read all of Keenan's book while I was on vacation. It was of no help to me in the acaule department. I found that Tullock's book had been delivered here sometime while I was gone. I will get around to reading that cover to cover as soon as I have time. 

While I was on vacation, we were able to get to the site where acaule is growing up on hummocks of sphagnum in relatively deep shade. Really neat. I am going to admit to pulling one up out of the sphagnum to look at the roots. We all gathered around to take a peek before putting the plant back. The roots of acaule growing on sphagnum hummocks go straight down. They are nothing like the roots of the acaule I was given that spread out. The difference is quite remarkable. 

Speaking of which, my acaule are here. I was given four not one. Somewhat concerned about having received more than one because I only brought one 5-gallon bucket of soil home with me. If I would have known I was getting more than one plant, I would have brought home four 5-gallon buckets of that soil. I don't suppose there is a way to innoculate the medium I will be planting them in by purchasing the fungus I need is there? Am going to hunker down today and begin bailing water out of the hole that was dug for me before I left. Think I will have to dig it down a foot or so deeper and add some sort of drainage but then again 20+ inches of rain is unheard of for this area at this time of year particularly in such a short time frame. The gravel I had ordered to be delivered while I was gone is the wrong gravel. I wanted river rock not the decorative white limestone and had specifically told them I wanted the multicolored round type gravel. Time to start rinsing the coarse sand, at least they delivered the right sand. I'll take photos of what I am doing for the acaule but have no idea how to post photos.


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## NYEric (Sep 3, 2007)

Good luck sounds like you have your hands full. I'm sure you can put a few plants together to temp. share the bed. There are threads here instructing how to post photos, I recommend Photobucket, but do it at your leisure.


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## TheLorax (Sep 3, 2007)

More so than I imagined. Back outside to rinse sand. I've got a photobucket account. I guess I'll have to search for the threads on how to use the pictures in it.


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## TheLorax (Sep 5, 2007)

I have just finished getting the acaule in the ground. I'm going to share what I did and why along with photos that hopefully will post and not knock anyone out who has a dial up. 

Here' goes. It was the holiday weekend and nobody would deliver the river rock gravel I wanted to go around the planter so I began driving my car back and forth to a materials yard that was open and I took a shovel and got my own materials. I made something like 4 trips with 5 gallon and 10 gallon containers. I think I about passed out in the heat which zoomed back up to 90. My husband was definitely not thrilled with me carrying that much weight in my car but I didn't want to put off getting the plants in the ground.


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## TheLorax (Sep 5, 2007)

This is the hole that was dug for me. You can see the solid clay starting at about 6-8" from ground level right where the water line is. I came home to this slop mess. I had to use buckets to get the water out and then I realized that the hole wasn't going to work so I began making it larger myself. I dug out another 8-10" all the way around and then I dug down into the clay another 18" deeper. I have no idea what the total volume of the hole ended up being but I needed drainage in the event we ever ended up with horrible rains again such as what we had recently. You can't see it but there is a 3" pvc pipe running from about 8" below ground level off about 10' away so that the hole will never be able to fill up with water beyond that point.


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## TheLorax (Sep 5, 2007)

It wasn't until after I loaded the bottom of the hole with about 10 qallons of river rock gravel that I began realizing I should really add the pvc to drain water away from the hole. Here was where I placed concrete blocks for the bottom of the preform to rest on so that I could level it. The hole is actually a lot bigger than it looks. Those are the jumob concrete blocks down there at the bottom.


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## TheLorax (Sep 5, 2007)

Next step was to go back to rinsing the sand. With all I have read, I decided to rinse all my materials until the water ran clear. I've seen where these plants grow and I doubt seriously if the contaminants and heavy metals are present in concentrations as they are around here and we take such care to water our plants with rain water that this didn't seem like a process I wanted to skip being as how the coarse sand was going to get mixed into my mediums. Rinsing sand sucks and it takes about 12-15 flushes to get the water to run clear. 






That photo was about 5 flushes away from running clear.


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## TheLorax (Sep 5, 2007)

I rinsed a lot of sand. I rinsed sand under the flood lights until I was ready to drop. I have lost a lot of hair from my arms from swishing it around to get it to run clear.


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## TheLorax (Sep 5, 2007)

The gravel only took a few flushes to run clear and the same deal with the pea gravel-


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## TheLorax (Sep 5, 2007)

Next step was to drill holes in the liner. I knew I was going to raise it out of the ground by 8" based on the Cribb's writings sent to my be Parvi and also based on his recommendation that these be in a raised bed so I based my holes on where the preform would ultimately rest above grade-

Drilling was easy. The bit pops right through after it slides around a bit from side to side then comes to rest before going through the rigid plastic.






I feel relatively confident I have enough holes at the right heights.


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## TheLorax (Sep 5, 2007)

I set the pre-form in the ground and began wheel barreling the gravel over to fill in around the edge. From there I placed about 4" of pea gravel in the bottom of the pre-form. From there I created a layer of pea gravel and a humousy soil mix. That layer of mix was about 10" or so.


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## TheLorax (Sep 5, 2007)

Over the top of that layer, I layered an inch or so of the cypripedium soil I brought home from up north-


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## TheLorax (Sep 5, 2007)

Next I mixed up some more of the soil from up north with about 5 gallons of perlite and 5 gallons of that humousy soil again. 






I ended up adding two more bags of perlite because it didn't look right to me.


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## TheLorax (Sep 5, 2007)

I added that layer which was only about 8" or so and then watered it down heavily with parvi's mix of 2 Tblsp cider vinegar to 1 gallon of water. 






I went to start testing the soil and found that my Ph tester wasn't calibrating properly. I will never buy another Oakton pH meter again in my life. Those things are too fussy no matter how good of an instrument they claim to be. I quick fast went online and ordered a brand new pH meter. I ordered the Bluelab Truncheon. I'd been meaning to do that for a while anyway. Hope it gets here soon so I can start checking the pH.


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## TheLorax (Sep 5, 2007)

Next layer was a really great mix of about 4 gallons of the soil from up north, 4 gallons of coarse sand, 5 gallons of soil from the site where the acaule came from, and 4 gallons of that humousy soil. I wanted a fast draining medium for this layer. 






I mixed all of these mixes by hand to make sure it was all thoroughly mixed. I get concerned about perlite compressing over time and definitely wanted that previous layer mixed well. 

Here's where I spread out the upper layer-


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## TheLorax (Sep 5, 2007)

Lastly I began positioning the plants along with the soil they came with. I mounded them up per parvi as well as other resources I tapped into online. 






I watered these in well using the cider vinegar. The pH in the area the plants came from was 4.5 so that's what I'm going for.


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## TheLorax (Sep 5, 2007)

Here's parvi's layer of pine needles and duff that I collected from up north. I have more set aside. 






Total for the preform was about 37 gallons not the 34 stated on the label when the preform was given to me. That pre-form is 8" above grade. I know it doesn't look like it from the angle I took the photo but it is raised up and out of the ground. 

I've done my homework and gotten help and advice from the best of the best so I hope these plants live. I've spent from dawn to dusk for the past few days preparing the area for these plants based on all I have learned and in consideration of my site and I've done my best. My best may not be good enough. I am tired, my body is sore from hauling material around in the wheelbarrel back and forth to the site, and I feel like doing a face plant right about now. I've probably sweated off a gazillion pounds. I am the dark horse I guess which is why I had only wanted one of these plants to start with not four and even then I wanted to put off trying one of these because they are too touchy and nobody seems to be able to get them to live beyond 3 years other than parvi.

I treated myself to the purchase of two parviflorum that will be delivered this fall. I figure those won't fail me and at least if my acaule die (odds are not with mine living based on everything I've read), I'll have the two parviflorums to look forward to blooming next spring as well as the two ariatium I ordered a bit ago for delivery next spring. Then if my acaule die, parvi can maybe work with me and tweak what I did based on my above photo documentation of the process so I can try acaule again and again until I get it right. Here's the big problem- My friend who gave them to me as a gift stated there were more where those came from and that if I don't take them and keep trying to grow them, they'll just be left to be bulldozed. He's got some sort of a permit to remove the plants before the widening of the road starts and his group was just granted a one year extension to go back in and get more plants. I guess the construction company and all of its sub contractors is not happy with his conservation group- oh well. These plants mean a lot to them. I didn't know that. They want me to try my best to get them to live to preserve the genotype. That's why they gave me four not one. That's why they have given these plants to other personal friends to try their best so that somebody may have success. Great, I'll feel even worse if something happens to them. I'm going to stake chicken wire around them so deer don't eat them next and maybe I better drape some fruit tree netting over them so squirrels don't scale the chicken wire to bury their nuts and acorns in there. That's all I need is a squirrel uprooting one of those plants while I'm out and about. 

parvi, if you see anything I could do better, please let me know. I have no problems digging everything up to get to a layer that might need to be tweaked. It's ok if I did something wrong, just let me know so I can correct it to the best of my ability. 

Here's the area I scoped out to plant the parviflorum (my treat to myself for getting the acaule in the ground) based on my readings and seeing where they grow in the wild which quite frequently is with maiden hair ferns.


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## TheLorax (Sep 5, 2007)

Forgot to mention, I can't test the pH yet. I didn't get the new replacement probe for the Oakton and I didn't receive the new Bluelab yet. Isn't that a piss. I can't even test the pH yet.


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## TheLorax (Sep 5, 2007)

Speaking of which, I need to buy a light meter to test what levels these plants are receiving. I've been using the photo meter to my camera as a general approximation but best for me to get a real photo meter for the acaule. Any suggestions? If I have to cut down a tree around the acaule to get the right level of light or if I have to plant a tree, I'll do it. I think I sited it properly based on watching the sun's path over the sky in that area throughout the course of the day but now I don't know any more.


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## NYEric (Sep 6, 2007)

Wow! Good job, and Good luck. I hope they don't get sunburned or anything. Can you get litmus paper to estimate pH?


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## TheLorax (Sep 6, 2007)

Thank you. I pooled from many resources to come up with the above mediums and set up. Now all I need is a horseshoe or two to stick up my rear and I should be good to go. 

I don't think they'll get sunburned, at least I hope not. I scoped out that site for a few days and walked out almost hourly. What you are seeing was morning sun then dappled sun. 

I could probably pick up some litmus paper but at this point the new pH meter should be here any day. 

Sounds horrible but I'm really glad they're in the ground. That was more work than I anticipated.


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## TheLorax (Sep 25, 2007)

Here's an upate of the area. Little bit more work to do in and around the raised bed but not much other than hand pulling some invasives and sinking plugs in and around it. 

This area will have a round chicken wire enclosure created to place over the top of it to keep cats from using it as a litter box and squirrels from burying nuts in it. So far, chipmunks have stayed away.


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## NYEric (Sep 26, 2007)

I won an eBay bid for 2 Cyp. acaule's last night but I'm not going to go through that much work to grow them!


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## TheLorax (Sep 26, 2007)

How are you going to try to grow them?


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## NYEric (Sep 26, 2007)

Well they're going into the fridge for this year, then next year I'll give them to the green garden downstairs and the German women who runs the thing will take charge. I should take photos of downstairs. It's a community garden w/ about 20 different growers; it has both native and exotic plantings.


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## TheLorax (Sep 26, 2007)

Yes, please take photos!


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## NYEric (Oct 2, 2007)

I rec'd the 2 Cyp acaule seedlings from the eBay vendor and I am pleasantly suprised at the size. The vendor took the leaves off but there is a small green sprout in each one. Should I leave by the window to grow some more or put into the fridge now? I will take photos and post tomorrow.


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## fundulopanchax (Oct 2, 2007)

NYEric said:


> I rec'd the 2 Cyp acaule seedlings from the eBay vendor and I am pleasantly suprised at the size. The vendor took the leaves off but there is a small green sprout in each one. Should I leave by the window to grow some more or put into the fridge now? I will take photos and post tomorrow.



Hi, it is definitely time to put into the refrigerator now for nice long sleep. You should put them into pots in moist pine duff. If seedlings that have grown in media are stored out of it during the winter they will usually die before spring.

Ron


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## NYEric (Oct 2, 2007)

Thanx, they are in pots now w/ a media I don't know so I'll keep them in that. Should I dry the media out a little? I don't want mold, etc.


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## TheLorax (Oct 2, 2007)

Based on experiences with CPs out of sync, my little voice says to put your acaule in the frig right now lest you risk depleting reserves they're going to need next spring. My thoughts are that it might be best for them stay in the frig an additional 30 days or so as opposed to letting them grow some more sitting on the window sill to get that ideal 90 day dormancy. They're ready to go down now as the photoperiod has been slowly reducing so no sense stressing them unnecessarily by growing them out any further.


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## NYEric (Oct 3, 2007)

OK. I put them [whole pot] into 1 gallon zip-lock bags and into the crisper in the fridge. My reginae seedlings still have leaves should I put them away also?


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## TheLorax (Oct 3, 2007)

I have like next to no experience with hardy cyps (unless you count me creating that area to grow my acaule and digging holes for the other species to plant straight in the ground in the past few months) but I've got that little voice that says if there's anything green on those reginae that they're still photosynthesizing so I'd not stick those in the frig yet.


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## NYEric (Oct 3, 2007)

*$10 Cyps from Hirts in Ohio.*

Cyp acaule seedlings that went into fridge this AM.









Bad photos of garden downstairs. I'm never around when it's open to the public; I'll take more later.


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## TheLorax (Oct 3, 2007)

For $10 a seedling, I'm tempted to find another location to try growing acaule a little bit differently than what I'm currently doing but I want to keep any potential gene pool clean. 

I'm really excited for you that you have those seedlings. This is going to be fun. Here's hoping one of us has some success with the acaule. 

I LOVE YOUR GARDENS! I love it when people ram plants in every square inch and create outdoor living spaces!


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## NYEric (Oct 3, 2007)

Where I live has the most unused area of land of any private property in Manhattan, there is a private garden, plazas, native wood ssection and the public community garden. I'll try to take some photos.


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## TheLorax (Oct 3, 2007)

That's a common area? Wild! We do not have any common areas like that around here. Our common areas are mostly turf and roses that are on their last leg. People are sorely lacking in the creativity department where I live. Who plants all the plants by you to make it look like a million bucks and who takes care of it all? Do people use that area or do you pretty much have it all to yourself" We sit outside all the time. If I lived by a garden like that I'd be outside every waking moment.


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## NYEric (Oct 3, 2007)

I don't do any outdoor gardening. My dad used to make me move trees around until he liked how they looked; including planting 1200 seedlings one weekend! The photos are the community garden which is only open to the public at certain times. individuals get a limited space to plant [no lettuce or anything like that] so the mix is ecclectic, lotus and water lilies to native plants. Our building also has a garden (mostly roses and gladiolas, etc)and lawn.


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## NYEric (Oct 4, 2007)

This is what it looks like where I live.


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## Candace (Oct 4, 2007)

That's nice, Eric. I don't remember seeing any grass when I was last in Manhattan.


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## NYEric (Oct 4, 2007)

Candace said:


> That's nice, Eric. I don't remember seeing any grass when I was last in Manhattan.



Yes, the only grass in Manhattan is on my block. oke:
Now I'm going to have to post pictures of NYC parks.


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## TheLorax (Oct 4, 2007)

I love Central Park. I get a kick out of all the itsie bitsie teeny tiny dogs people walk there. Lots of people even have their dogs poking out of carry-all bags. Central Park is a nice green oasis in the middle of all that concrete and asphalt. 

Great photos, I like where you live. Wish they'd take down some of the fences though so you could get in there and weed or something. I'm a compulsive weeder and dead header. You've really got some nice parks where you live.


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## kentuckiense (Oct 4, 2007)

Eric, a few of those photos are in focus! Are you feeling ok?!


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## NYEric (Oct 4, 2007)

I got confused!


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## SlipperFan (Oct 4, 2007)

Nice to see green among all those tall buildings. But you can have the city...


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Oct 4, 2007)

Wow Eric! I didn't know that you lived there....I had a friend in high school who lived in that complex...many fond memories of hanging out there. Actually saw him a few days ago, at my HS reunion....I apologized for times I threw up at his place...he said it was OK, everybody did...........Take care, Eric


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## NYEric (Oct 4, 2007)

Before the next GNYOS show I'll have to have a cocktail party. No throwing up though..


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Oct 5, 2007)

I think I'm past that stage.......


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## TheLorax (Oct 22, 2007)

Just found this-
http://www.cypripedium.de/forum/messages/177.html

He's been growing them for over 30 years and claims-


> Its only requirement is for extremely acidic soils; reactions are no higher than pH 4.5, commonly around 4.0, and down through the 3's.


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