# What makes an orchid breeding quality?



## Missgreen (Nov 29, 2013)

What makes an orchid and especially slippers breeding quality? Does it have to have been awarded? What criteria do you breeders use when you select stock plants for breeding?


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## NYEric (Nov 29, 2013)

Awarded, unusual color blooms or foliage, big blooms or large size, prolific, a survivor, unusually fragrant.


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## Trithor (Nov 29, 2013)

I think it depends on what you are aiming to achieve.
1) species preservation - documented origin, good representative floral and growth character (award preferable, but not essential)
2) Potplant - quick to mature, strong growth, disease resistance, easy culture, good flower presentation, good substance, flower durability, showy, fertility (award quality is not essential)
3) Line breeding - plants selected for a strong desirable trait presence (size, flowercount, shape, colour etc), award preferable
4) Collector/aficionado - need to select for trends and rarity. The albums, varieties are high in this group.

I am sure there are other groups as well with their own set of NBs, but this would be about the gist of it. More important is the reverse question, - which plants would you (rather) not use for breeding? Awarded or not does not include or exclude a plant! Poor anything would be a greater excluding factor, as in poor grower, slow to mature, poor substance, small and low flower count, deformed flower, etc (rated relative to plants of the same species or grex)


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## paphreek (Nov 30, 2013)

First and foremost, I try to select for vigor and good flower quality. If a plant doesn't have both, I most likely will not use it to breed. There are rare exceptions where the first parent has a unique quality I want, and I think the second parent can overcome the problems the first parent has.


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## Missgreen (Dec 1, 2013)

Thank you for your advice 
I know they are difficult to pollinate and grow and probably not for beginners, but I would like to try and breed my own Phrags eventually, as I find it very difficult to find the really interesting Phragmipedium hybrids in Europe. Most people here seem to be into Paphs and there is a huge selection available, but I find Phragmipediums to be more colourful as well as easier to grow. 

But there is no point in using inferior plants in breeding


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## monocotman (Dec 1, 2013)

*phrags*

If you want the best phrags then Ratcliffe's is the place to go.
They often have plants for sale from the Eric Young Orchid Foundation.
They have a nice set of divisions available at the moment on the web site,
Regards,
David


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## eteson (Dec 1, 2013)

One of the most important factors is the quality of the parents... poor parents means poor progeny. If you are planning to start a breeding line i would advice to stat with the best plants you can find. It takes a LOT of time and efforts the sowing, replating, replating again, deflasking....Then you have to wait at least two or three years more to see the first flowers... it worths only if the result is good, and the only way is to start with the best.


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## eaborne (Dec 1, 2013)

Well said Eliseo. 
Use parents with the qualities you would want passed on to future generations.


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## Rick (Dec 1, 2013)

Trithor said:


> I think it depends on what you are aiming to achieve.
> 1) species preservation - documented origin, good representative floral and growth character (award preferable, but not essential)
> 2) Potplant - quick to mature, strong growth, disease resistance, easy culture, good flower presentation, good substance, flower durability, showy, fertility (award quality is not essential)
> 3) Line breeding - plants selected for a strong desirable trait presence (size, flowercount, shape, colour etc), award preferable
> ...



Essentially "quality (beauty) is in the eye of the beholder". But Gary offers a very good list of quality values that people often base their opinions on.


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## Leo Schordje (Dec 5, 2013)

I personally have made at least 2 crosses that single handed have set orchid breeding backwards at least 50 years.  Paph (fowliei x callosum var sublaeve) and Odcdm (hastatum x bictoniense). Actually the Odcdm hybrid is very wispy, small star shaped flowers, and low flower count, but they do have incredible colors. 

At least one of my crosses worked out pretty darn good. Phrag. Inca Embers (Andean Fire x longifolium) has received a number of AM's and HCC's to seedlings produced from my seed pod. But that cross was made two decades ago. Old news. 

I took a flower with terrible form but small growth habit, Paph fowliei, and looking to produce a tea-cup sized Maudiae, cross it to a dwarf-ish growing Paph callosum sublaevae. The callosum I used was below average in the form department, it also had weak color. Its only strength was that it would bloom at about half the size of a normal Paph callosum. Well, the outcome was as expected, hybrid vigor gave larger plants than either parent, and the flowers were wretched. The worst of the form traits of Paph fowliei, including rolled and reflexed petals and narrow dorsals, from the callosum the habit that the dorsals rolled backward at the base. They were UGLY. I ended up composting all of them. It was some 8 years of work down the tubes. Yes, 8 years. 1 year to mature pods, 18 months to get replates back from lab. and another 6 years waiting for the best ones to bloom a second time to see if they really were that bad. Yep, they were. So the lesson is, it is possible to make horribly bad orchid hybrids. It is expensive to make bad hybrids. They cost the same to make as good hybrids. They also cost the same amount of time. 

A successful cross, or at least not ugly. (fowliei x wardii) the wardii is strong on transmitting flat, wide petals. Wardii also picks up the color from its other parent and moves it around a bit. So the end result was a pleasant, tea-cup sized hybrid, that strongly favored the wardii parent. I was so disgusted with my earlier fowliei cross, I never registered this one. I believe Ross Hella has remade it since. 

So we know callosum can make excellent hybrids, we know fowliei can make good hybrids (just check Ross Hella's website). It is important to realize that when making a cross, think about the strengths and weaknesses of each parent. If both are weak in the same category, the result will be even worse in that category. Always choose parents that compensate for the other parent's weaknesses. 

The rest is simple once you get that. The earlier lists of traits to consider in breeding all apply. For example, it is important to realize, crossing a plant that is slow to get around to blooming with another plant that is also slow, the offspring will be even slower on the average. So many of the non-AOS award criteria are very important to keep in mind when making crosses. 

I encourage you to try. My first cross ever was to cross 2 different clones of Broughtonia sanguineae. The results were encouraging, nice average looking progeny. No wards, but none had to go to the compost heap. Then I tried my hand at the Oncidium Alliance, then moved to Paphs, then Phrags. I largely stopped breeding about 12 years ago. I may get back into, I have a couple pods hanging right now. Good luck.


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## AdamD (Dec 5, 2013)

I didn't realize you made Inca Embers Leo! I have a 'Windy Hill' (AM/AOS) division coming into spike now, and putting out roots like crazy.


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## Missgreen (Dec 5, 2013)

Thanks for the encouragement Leo  

I have a special cross in mind that I would like to try, but I don't own either of the potential parent plants. I have two interesting Phragmipedium hybrids coming into bloom soon and hopefully they will bloom at the same time. 

The cross would, on paper, have some of the same qualities as Phragmipedium Walter Schomburg, though a little different. If I succeed, which I most likely won't, it would potentially be an interesting hybrid for further breeding. For instance with kovachii. As far as I can see nobody have registered that cross anywhere. 

I love Inca Embers too  I have a nice besseae flowering now and maybe I could try and cross that with my Anden Fire if it starts blooming soon enough. And hopefully create a European version of Inca Fire, though I prefer Inca Embers


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## Missgreen (Dec 5, 2013)

Thanks for the heads up on Ratcliffe's David, but I've been looking at their page and they don't seem to have what I'm looking for :sob:


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