# Massacre in Orlando



## My Green Pets (Jun 12, 2016)

Situation

At least 50 murdered in a gay dance club last night by one gunman.
Picture painted by media is that the shooter was a religious extremist targeting a specific demographic. The shooter cannot speak for himself because he is dead.

Thoughts

That could have been me.
That could have been someone I know.
This will happen again.
I don't feel safe - anywhere.
I want to fight this.
I don't want to die.
If I really want to fight this, I can't be afraid to die.
The fear of dying affects my decisions.
I am manipulated by fear.
A leader who makes me feel safe has a better chance of getting my support.
Strong fear can be subdued by strong assurance and strong actions.
People are easily united against a common enemy.
A leader will deliver strong assurance by directing strong actions against a common enemy.
Who decides the common enemy?
Who receives the blame?
Will I support strong actions against certain people because I am afraid?
Will I support strong actions against certain people because I want retaliation?
To what degree will I allow fear to control me?
To what degree am I already controlled?
What circumstances have lead to the present situation?
What can I do to improve the present situation for everyone?

This is not the first massacre in history. It is not the last. It is a strong action meant to provoke a strong response. The anticipated response is anger, fear, and/or retaliation. The anticipated response is the desired response.

How will I respond?


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## troy (Jun 12, 2016)

I agree lance


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## Lanmark (Jun 12, 2016)

The shooter's father says his son was motivated by hatred for and anger against gay men and not by his religion, though I can't help but believe his religion and maybe even his father may have played a part in fueling his hatred.


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## Lanmark (Jun 12, 2016)

It is now being reported that the shooter called 911 before the shooting and pledged his allegiance to ISIS/ISIL.


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## Lanmark (Jun 12, 2016)

Huh?


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## ehanes7612 (Jun 12, 2016)

gonewild said:


> The FBI has him on a terror list and did nothing to stop him. The FBI allowed him to carry out the murder of 50+ people. The FBI has 20 "Ranchers" (Oregon) in prison waiting trial on terrorism charges for having a peaceful (non violent) occupation of a remote wildlife refuge. One rancher was executed by law enforcement and the others systematically arrested and held in solitary confinement on charges of terrorism. This is happening right now. YET the FBI lets a real terrorist suspect manage to kill 50 people. Is the FBI really that stupid or are they being directed to allow Islamic terrorists to remain free while professed American "Patriots" are imprisoned?



There are hundreds if not thousands on terror lists..should we just go lock them all up on a hunch? This person was a US citizen..should we just have stripped his rights on a hunch or an affiliation to Islam because his parents were from Afghanistan? This was a random act that could have happened anywhere..the timeline doesn't compare to what happened in Oregon. Oregon was a long drawn out episode in which the participants were given ample opportunity to stand down. How do you know what the FBI did or did not do?..were you part of their investigation?..do you have access to their reports?..don't be a pawn by spreading misinformation. You are enflaming the issue by comparing apples to orangutans and giving more fuel to hatred. Why don't you STFU before all the facts come in, you obviously cant hold back your anger, which is making you stupid.


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## ehanes7612 (Jun 12, 2016)

gonewild said:


> STFU???? For you to say that based on what I wrote only shows you are the pawn. You always tell someone with an opposing political opinion to STFU or use some other offensive term. And I did not even state a political opinion.
> 
> Who said anything about hatred? Not me.
> But since you asked about locking up the gentleman....The media reports the sweet young citizen made contact with foreign terror cells. His work associates are quoted as saying he had a bad attitude about non Muslums. And his wife said he constantly beat her for no reason. So yes the FBI should have locked him up, especially since he was a Citizien.
> ...



telling people to STFU is not me taking away anyone's rights..just so you know..me preventing someone from posting would be me taking away their rights..you really have a perverted view about the constitution and you seem to have a hard time making proper distinctions , huh? You really don' understand the consequences of your rants do you? you really don't seem to understand how you jumping to conclusions affects people? you have little respect for keeping the calm..you are someone who seems to get off on spreading fear... well, here is me pushing it back in your face


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## ehanes7612 (Jun 12, 2016)

gonewild said:


> How and when have I spread fear or mis information?
> Have you seen the news? ISIS takes credit for the attack. The terrorist called it in and pledged allegiance to ISIS. The guy beat his wife. He was an Islamic Terrorist. The only reason I replied to this thread was because the original post was worded to sound like the shooter may have been a Christian extremist that hated Gays. So I stated hat was already fact It was an Islamic terrorist. Everything I wrote about the event has been published as factual.
> 
> Now according to PCness an Islamic terrorist has nothing to do with an accepted religion since Islam does not tolerate violence or hatred. So again I was correct to point out the inadvertent error in the original post which could mislead people into thinking the shooter was a white redneck Christian homosexual hater..



Now, you are just equivocating



> You are not as smart as you think you are or you would not assume I am stupid. You would not suggest that I spread hatred since I have not made any hateful statements.
> 
> I really don't care what you think or say about me but I do hate rudeness. I really did not know it was now the accepted way for educated people to speak and write in public. Stupid me.



Well, if you hate rudeness then you actually care what I say, about you. Educated people are humans, they can be rude as much as anyone else....you need to get out more. And I am as smart as I am ...sometimes I am smarter , sometimes not so much. I act stupid sometimes...we all do, we all have our trigger points that stress us and make us act the way we do. Obviously, my rudeness offends some people...definitely you..so be it...but you should understand that your dribble affects people too. You can rationalize it all you want but you just keep digging your hole deeper and deeper.


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## ehanes7612 (Jun 12, 2016)

"Instead of telling people to STFU you should maybe extend them their rights as a Citizen"

okay, you don't even know what you wrote and it's right in front of you..you are lost and confused now.......I think you need to take a long breather..maybe a vision quest ..take some hallucinogens and go on a hundred mile hike and find yourself or something...BTW, you can have the last word


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## Lanmark (Jun 12, 2016)

gonewild said:


> The only reason I replied to this thread was because the original post was worded to sound like the shooter may have been a Christian extremist that hated Gays.



The original poster most certainly did not make it sound like it was a Christian extremist. Christianity was never even mentioned.

The facts are these: a bunch of people are dead and wounded due to hatred, bias, bigotry and all-too-easy access to guns. It keeps happening in this country over and over and over again. It's sickening, and something has to change.

This event has nothing to do with the odious yahoos in Oregon who decided to hole up with a bunch of weapons on federally protected land.

The FBI, furthermore, didn't shoot up all these people. We are a nation of laws. The FBI followed the letter of the law.

Stop with the red herrings. Put blame squarely where it belongs: ignorance, bias, hatred, intolerance, bigotry, the roots for most of these things being in religion of some sort or another. Also to blame is the easy access to assault weapons and high-caliber guns and ammunition. The facts and statistics are there. All you have to do is compare the gun violence statistics of this nation to those of Japan or the UK. As Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan stated, "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion but not to his own facts."


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## Lanmark (Jun 12, 2016)

How do you live with terrorism? With dignity, courage, strength, defiance and resistance. With better policing and better security. With education. By looking at and addressing some of the underlying causes which include poverty, discrimination and social injustice. Those are some places to start. We have a lot of work to do.

The fact is this: this shooter in Orlando today only just recently went out and bought the guns he used to kill all these people -- because he could. That is a fact.

There will always be terrorist attacks, but this one might have been prevented if the shooter hadn't been able to buy the damn guns! We should be looking at that. There is no need for such access to assault rifles. Tighter controls and better background checks need to be in place as well.

The logic of arming everyone with assault rifles doesn't make sense. If it did, it would also make sense for every Tom, Dick, Harry and Hamid to carry bazookas, personal sized nuclear weapons, vials of cyanide and ricin and on and on. That wouldn't make sense. Neither do all these guns.

Gun violence does *NOT* happen much more in most other western countries. *Check your facts.*

Give it up about your Oregon heroes. Few here, if any, share your sentiments, and you're not going to change the rest of our minds about them.

Last but not least, I wish you peace. I disagree with you, but I don't harbor ill will toward you.


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## Lanmark (Jun 12, 2016)

Better policing is needed. I already stated that. That would include better policing on the part of the FBI. Still, the primary blame for this act rests squarely on the shoulders of the shooter. Does the FBI share some blame here? It's possible. I don't have all the facts. Does easy access to assault rifles share some blame here? I believe it does.

You're free to state your opinion. I'm sorry if that sounded like a command. It was a suggestion that you stop wasting your breath about those Oregon criminals. They are only freedom fighters and folk heroes in the eyes of anti-federalists. They are off-the-wall outlaws to the rest of us, but recruit away if you must.


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## abax (Jun 12, 2016)

I think we're all quite upset as we should be at such
merciless killing, however, being unkind to each other
won't change anything. This is my kum-ba-ya moment
until we all calm down. Please don't take your anger and
frustration out on each other.


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## Lanmark (Jun 13, 2016)

CambriaWhat said:


> This is not the first massacre in history. It is not the last. It is a strong action meant to provoke a strong response. The anticipated response is anger, fear, and/or retaliation. The anticipated response is the desired response.
> 
> How will I respond?



This terrible act is being met with an outpouring of unity, resolve, strength and love within the gay community. This is the response which is the most powerful and lasting.


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## NYEric (Jun 13, 2016)

Should not have been allowed to buy War machines, plain and simple.


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## Ray (Jun 13, 2016)

NYEric said:


> Should not have been allowed to buy War machines, plain and simple.





BINGO!!!!!!

I have no problem with gun ownership, have won shooting awards, and was even in the NRA a long time ago, but no individual needs an assault weapon or one with full automatic capability.

Nor do I think that banning them would be a violation of anyone's constitutional rights.


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## troy (Jun 13, 2016)

If guns were never invented nobody would kill each other.... hahaha


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## orcoholic (Jun 13, 2016)

Ray said:


> I have no problem with gun ownership, but no individual needs an assault weapon or one with full automatic capability.
> 
> Nor do I think that banning them would be a violation of anyone's constitutional rights.



100% agree.

Another way I think would stop some of the shooters is to not allow the news to publish the shooters picture, name, or anything else about them. 

Some of these people may really be religious fanatics, but I think a lot of them just want to die and leave their pitiful lives behind. They want go out in a blaze of glory, be remembered, and don't have the guts to kill themselves.


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## orcoholic (Jun 13, 2016)

gonewild said:


> I could not agree more.
> Exactly my point. The FBI has laws at it's disposal that could have been used to prevent this person from easily purchasing firearms. When they investigated him for making death threats (at least twice) they could have and should have revoked his permit to carry a concealed weapon and flagged his name to prevent or at least delay gun purchases.



What laws do the FBI have at their disposal? Aren't gun purchasing rules dealt with at the state level?

What law could they use to revoke his permit to carry? 
I thought permits to carry are also state laws. FBI are a national police force.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jun 13, 2016)

Sick of this kind of thing happening over and over, and some stupid media are busy talking about ISIS and terror.

Doesn't really matter what it is, whether it is terror, religion, psychopath full of hate, they gotta cut at the source. 
Gun control is the only way, or this will happen again and again.

We talked about this in a different thread in the past and it is the same story.

As Mark pointed out and I have before, this kind of stuff does not happen in other civilized countries, sure it happened once in Norway, but nothing of this frequency as in U.S. 

The reason is very simple and clear. 
Nothing ever changes. The conservative politicians point to mental illness and terror, but so what? 
Crazy and hateful people are everywhere and there are too many. Virtually impossible to control those.

Speaking of crazies, I happened to be near the Stonewall Inn area yesterday where there was a gathering regarding the Orlando massacre, and I saw this young black woman with three little children yelling these horrible things against gays. Typical things from go the hell to all of yall should die, lots of f bombs and on and on and on. It was just unthinkable what came out of her mouth! 
I almost wanted to smack her in the mouth. It was obvious that this person wasn't just hateful, but she was definitely mental. I felt bad for her children having to grow up with a mother with a mouth and brain like that. 
Imagine she had a gun! lol

If people can't have access to this kind of mass killing machine, this kind of mass killing just won't happen, at least not like this.
Remember that lots of other shootings at smaller scales are only covered in local papers. It is just terrible!

This is very American problem. They must fix this ****!!!!!


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## troy (Jun 13, 2016)

Happypaphy, what are you going to do when a terrorist runs down a crowd of people in a car? He's going to run away? Or excercise your right to bear arms and shoot him?


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## Fabrice (Jun 13, 2016)

Sorry for this dramatic event.
Sadly, as french, I know well what you can fell at this time...

We need to continue to live without fear. Easy to tell, more difficult to do. But it's necessary.

(And Trump is not the solution... )


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## ehanes7612 (Jun 13, 2016)

The problem with putting focus on this tragedy as a terrorist event (and it is, whether or not he was actually a scumbag of ISIL) is that it takes away focus from the actual victims. I am hearing a lot from gay couple friends that their biological families are silent and offering no support..as what happened when they were married as well as when the SCOTUS ruling came down. This is first and foremost an attack on the LGBT community and I think(but its only my theory) that the ISIL claim is a distraction. I am hearing from many people who have tenuous ties to the homophobic community (mostly via biological ties), that the discourse among them is one of thrill that a gay nightclub was attacked.Fortunately, those voices are being drowned out by the news media and general population. This country has a long way to go to be inclusive. It has a long way to go to deal with a very racist and homophobic past. ISIL and terrorism is a threat but it pales in comparison to our own legacy that we have brought on our own citizens and our children


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## Lanmark (Jun 13, 2016)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ITdjAb3VcE


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## Happypaphy7 (Jun 13, 2016)

Is this like British version of fox? lol
The older man in this video is such an ass!
Trying to deny and distort what's so obvious. 

I wish he had a gay or lesbian child who died like these people did in this tragedy, and I would love to see if he would still be this much of a disgusting ass. 

The same goes for the woman. These are real trash of human society!

The media must be focusing on real problems like gun control and homophobia.


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## cnycharles (Jun 13, 2016)

I just learned about this late this morning, very sad. 
Saw interview with emergency trauma workers, they say now injuries from high speed guns showing up every day, used to be rare. Definitely assault type 'professional' weapons have no place being sold to general population. I agree with original reasons for amendment allowing citizens to have 'the guns of that day' but have 0 support for allowing war equipment in hands of those who have not been trained highly to use them in protection mode (and too obviously able to inflict wrongful harm in too quick of a fashion)
Also saw interview with father; likely son was disturbed, and highly influenced by hate from father who is afghan. Son claims allegiance to a wide range of terror groups, some who do not ally with each other, so likely he doesn't know anything real about them but is using parts of each to support his own agenda (very familiar story from human history)
Retaliation is senseless thought because shooter is dead. Who is retaliated against? Also in news they said the shooter at one point was hoping the fbi would storm him so he could be dead; not sure I would be allowing a gun permit to someone like this with that frame of mind 
The news sensationalizes nutters in this country and unfortunately gives wind to sails of other nutters, very unfortunate 


Elmer Nj


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## Heather (Jun 13, 2016)

The bottom line here is everyone is upset. Please let's try to keep this debate civil and productive and refrain from name calling and making things more upsetting than they already are. 

Thank you.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jun 13, 2016)

cnycharles said:


> The news sensationalizes nutters in this country and unfortunately gives wind to sails of other nutters, very unfortunate
> 
> 
> Elmer Nj



Says yet another nutter. :clap::clap::clap:


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## Happypaphy7 (Jun 14, 2016)

Yes. It doesn't matter whether the person is straight or gay. 
Homophobic means what the word says. 

Internalized homophobia leading to self-hate. 
This is not new. Many people have this reportedly, and remember back in the day when closeted gay officials in the U.S. turned other gays in. 

Either way, homophobia brings nothing pleasant. 

As this picket I saw, people need to realize that some people are gay and get over it. lol


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## NYEric (Jun 14, 2016)

Actually the definition was originally about self-hate.


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## NYEric (Jun 14, 2016)

troy said:


> Happypaphy, what are you going to do when a terrorist runs down a crowd of people in a car? He's going to run away? Or excercise your right to bear arms and shoot him?


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## orcoholic (Jun 14, 2016)

The more I hear about this, the more convinced I am that the FBI and the people enforcing the Terrorist Act need to be put under very close examination to see if there is any competency in any of the agencies.

They had this guy in their sights and decided not to do anything about him??? They decide the people in Oregon are terrorists and arrest them???

In the recent past, the police shot someone in the back while he was running away. Also, the police gave Freddie Gray a "rough ride" in Baltimore and ended up breaking his neck and killing him. Other examples of police misbehavior are constantly being exposed because everyone has a camera.

What the heck is going on?


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## ehanes7612 (Jun 14, 2016)

Many LGBT struggle with their sexual identity when they are young...and it doesn't help that many times they come from homophobic communities and families..where they have absolutely no support network. If Mateen was gay ..it's quite possible that he could not resolve the inner conflicts coming from his religious exposure and from the greater society (that is taught from Old Testament teachings that being Homosexual is wrong) and he broke...if this is true , then society as a whole needs to bear some responsibility, at least as a reflection on the influence we have on young people...this is our legacy.,


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## Lanmark (Jun 14, 2016)

The more I hear about this, the more I am convinced this was a targeted hate crime more than anything else. Society and religious beliefs are the sources of the seeds of homophobia.


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## cnycharles (Jun 14, 2016)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Says yet another nutter. :clap::clap::clap:



 congratulations on always being right
.. And to prove it I'll dredge up that famous bit of American childish wisdom "it takes one to know one! Hah! :rollhappy: "


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## SlipperFan (Jun 14, 2016)

NYEric said:


> Actually the definition was originally about self-hate.



That's my theory. He couldn't accept himself because his religion taught him that homosexuality is immoral. So all those people he killed were himself. And he swore allegiance to ISIS as a justification.


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## Lanmark (Jun 14, 2016)

gonewild said:


> Now the media is reporting the shooter was a patron of the nightclub.
> If true it seems he was a confused terrorist and maybe not a homophobic.
> 
> Serious questions...
> ...



I think it could be construed as offensive.

The latest I've heard in the news this evening indicates he may not have been a self-loathing gay man at all, but rather, a predatory creep who was thoroughly researching, scoping out the scene, plotting and making preparations before he committed his crime of hate.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jun 14, 2016)

cnycharles said:


> congratulations on always being right
> .. And to prove it I'll dredge up that famous bit of American childish wisdom "it takes one to know one! Hah! :rollhappy: "



What is wrong with you lately?
Where did I say I was always right, or did I even hint?
Weren't you the one who is right?? and if someone says something different even slightly, then you turn like this?

You were the one who twisted other's comment, and I had to say something back using your own expression, and you are still like this? Great!

Oh, and I didn't grow up here and never heard of that quote, why don't you just keep that to yourself?
Thanks, bye~


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## ehanes7612 (Jun 15, 2016)

http://alldigitocracy.org/word-matt...radical-and-not-a-radical-american-homophobe/


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## PaphMadMan (Jun 15, 2016)

It has become pretty clear that the shooter's motivation was self hate or obsession fueled hate, perhaps promoted by religious background or his father's attitudes. That the religion involved is Islam is almost irrelevant. The last minute allegiance to ISIS was not really part of the motivation, more like an excuse. Crazy is just crazy sometimes, and evil is just evil sometimes. Terrorism, sure, but not ideologically motivated terrorism.


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## abax (Jun 16, 2016)

Exactly right, Mr. Hanes. Excellent analysis and the hate
won't stop until we all assess just how our institutions such
as churches and schools, etc. keep passing along the same
old lies.


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## ehanes7612 (Jun 16, 2016)

http://thoughtcatalog.com/daniel-hayes/2016/06/i-am-an-ar-15-owner-and-ive-had-enough/


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## Lanmark (Jun 16, 2016)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/06/13/the-men-who-wrote-the-2nd-amendment-would-never-recognize-an-ar-15/

Maybe we should ban anything that isn't a musket or a flintlock pistol, or maybe we should rethink the 2nd Amendment. Everyone treats it as if it is sacred text, written in stone by the finger of God. It's not.


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## Happypaphy7 (Jun 16, 2016)

Angela & Mark, 
I hope changes will come sooner. 
America then will be a much greater country!


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## abax (Jun 16, 2016)

I think the man with the AR-15 has no penis. I think guns
are penis substitutes for those with little to no education,
are basically hostile to almost everything and get a "high"
when killing. The two relatively gentle bills before congress will not get past the House. Geez, he needs an
assault rifle to kill pigs...oh my.


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## ehanes7612 (Jun 19, 2016)

"I dont think you should arm individuals where people drink"...NRA response to Trump

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/19/politics/donald-trump-chris-cox-nra-orlando-shooting/index.html


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## abax (Jun 20, 2016)

People with guns in a dark night club shooting everywhichway...really gooood idea Trump. The man is
totally insane.


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