# Limestone and bonemeal



## Wendy (Mar 30, 2009)

I already add limestone screenings to my Paphs (that need it). I've noticed that some people have mentioned using bonemeal. Please tell me more about bonemeal? Do you use it in addition to limestone? At what rate? Why do you use it? I hope these aren't silly questions but if I can do something to improve on my culture using bonemeal I would like to know.

Thanks!


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## NYEric (Mar 30, 2009)

Don't use the yellow kind made w/ porcine material, you will get flies and maggots!


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## SlipperKing (Mar 30, 2009)

It adds Phosphates to your growing media. I also find it to be a fantastic anti- rot agent as well.


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## nikv (Mar 30, 2009)

Is there a particular group of paphs that benefit from bonemeal and/or limestone? I haven't been using either one on any of my plants.


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## Rick (Mar 30, 2009)

NYEric said:


> Don't use the yellow kind made w/ porcine material, you will get flies and maggots!




This is all I could get lately too, but I haven't had a problem with flies and maggots. But I'm in a GH so I may be clueless.

I use it in conjunction with oyster shell and/or limestone screenings for the calcerous paphs and all by itself for barbata and other non calcereous orchids.

As noted it's great for a phosphorus boost (much more than limestone), and a mild support of pH (not as strong as limestone or oyster shell).

I've been adding it to all my orchid potting mixes for about a year now, and pretty happy with growth in general. Marylin LeDoux uses it in her phrag potting mixes too, and there's not much argument about the quality of her plants.

If you are using a high P fertilizer then it's probably a waste. If you are using a balanced or MSU fert then I think its a good idea.

I haven't seen the help for rot that Rick has seen or that I was hoping for.


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## SlipperKing (Mar 30, 2009)

I've used it on all of mine for more then 6 mos. (Paphs and Phrags)and have seen no ill effects. Only positive or no apparent effect so far. I did read somewhere that "vini" colored species were phosphate starved so if you would use bone meal on them it could effect the outcome. I would like to see someone else verify this info. Any members here, that could verify this?


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## Rick (Mar 30, 2009)

SlipperKing said:


> I've used it on all of mine for more then 6 mos. (Paphs and Phrags)and have seen no ill effects. Only positive or no apparent effect so far. I did read somewhere that "vini" colored species were phosphate starved so if you would use bone meal on them it could effect the outcome. I would like to see someone else verify this info. Any members here, that could verify this?



I speculated on this in an old post, but I've never seen any definitive work on this. I think it popped up in a post about a blue cochlopetalum.

Anecdotally, I've been adding it to my callosums, and the var sublaeve I just posted has pretty good color (though not a vini to start with).


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## Wendy (Mar 30, 2009)

Thanks all. I noticed it on the shelf at the local garden centre the other day so I will pick up a tub. Do you top dress or does it matter? A couple handfuls?


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## Rick (Mar 30, 2009)

Wendy said:


> Thanks all. I noticed it on the shelf at the local garden centre the other day so I will pick up a tub. Do you top dress or does it matter? A couple handfuls?



I top dress and mix it into new batches of potting mix. This stuff goes allot farther than you'd expect, so more like a tsp or so for 1/2 gal of mix.

If you are top dressing then maybe a 1/4 tsp per 4"-6" pt.


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## Wendy (Mar 30, 2009)

Thank you! Much appreciated!


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## Elena (Mar 30, 2009)

I started adding bonemeal last summer after reading Rick's posts (I was already top dressing with oyster shell then) and so far, so good. Obviously it's hard to talk about the exact difference it makes because I don't have a control group or anything like that to compare with but it doesn't seem to be doing any harm and I'm happy with the plant's growth and flowering.

I can't remember what source mine is from but I've had no issues with maggots or anything. The box says it's sterilised so maybe that makes a difference. I only use a small amount, no more than a tea spoon depending on the size of the pot. It definitely goes a long way. 

Btw, I noticed that some gardening stores sell it as a supplement to "promote strong root growth" Any thoughts on that with regards to orchids/slippers?


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## SlipperKing (Mar 30, 2009)

I don't know if this is something Eric wants to cut & "post" in his culture MEGAthread. But here it goes, another ST member whom apparently has done a lot of research on physiological requirements of paphs. Says that the addition of limestone etc. added to the mix is not to stablize the pH as much as it is for the creation of HCO3 (ant)ions. Apparently, carbonate ions causes a physiological change in the roots to start producing acid. The acid inturn dissolves minerals, chemicals etc that the plant needs. When you think about it, it does make some since. In nature, the plants don't have the luxury of being repotted each year. *This is only my opinion, *We start our plants out in a new pot with new media and are told to feed them with water slightly acid so they can take up what they need. As time goes on, the media breaks down, becomes more acid. The plant is producing acid and we are still feeding with an acidic water source. What do you get? Rotten roots and a stuggling plant. Most of the Paph species are growing in association with limestone out crops. I was told long ago it was because of competition with other plants. That maybe true but I also think the Paphs are on the limestone because they need it to survive, dissolve it and extract what they need. Like I said, this is only my theory that I've come up with from what I've read.


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## Rick (Mar 30, 2009)

SlipperKing said:


> I don't know if this is something Eric wants to cut & "post" in his culture MEGAthread. But here it goes, another ST member whom apparently has done a lot of research on physiological requirements of paphs. Says that the addition of limestone etc. added to the mix is not to stablize the pH as much as it is for the creation of HCO3 (ant)ions. Apparently, carbonate ions causes a physiological change in the roots to start producing acid. The acid inturn dissolves minerals, chemicals etc that the plant needs. When you think about it, it does make some since. In nature, the plants don't have the luxury of being repotted each year. *This is only my opinion, *We start our plants out in a new pot with new media and are told to feed them with water slightly acid so they can take up what they need. As time goes on, the media breaks down, becomes more acid. The plant is producing acid and we are still feeding with an acidic water source. What do you get? Rotten roots and a stuggling plant. Most of the Paph species are growing in association with limestone out crops. I was told long ago it was because of competition with other plants. That maybe true but I also think the Paphs are on the limestone because they need it to survive, dissolve it and extract what they need. Like I said, this is only my theory that I've come up with from what I've read.



There's pros and cons of your discusion. Just for clarification, HC03 is bicarbonate (rather than carbonate CO3). I wouldn't say most paphs are calcareous. Very few if any of the barbata and pardopetalum are found on limestone. With a few exceptions brachys and parvis are, and most coryopetalum too. The single flower strap leaves are split about 2/3 calcareous too I beleive. Roth is an odd ball being associated with serpentine (Mg Si hydroxides). I don't think paphs are found on limestone to avoid competition. The plant species list that Averyanov includes in his descriptions of paph habitats is pretty impressive, and here in TN (karst limestone country), plant diversity is also very high. Also in the tropics it would seem that orchid diversity is highest for epiphytes (??) with pockets of accumulated moss and humus having a fairly low pH.

I think things are a bit more complex than just pH for understanding orchid community ecology, but at the gross physiological level, most of the basic nutrients that orchids need are bioavalable around neutral pH (6-8), and for a host of reasons pot pH drops with time, so adding a mild buffer to help keep the pH in a good range longer tends to help.


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## SlipperKing (Mar 31, 2009)

Rick said:


> There's pros and cons of your discusion. Just for clarification, HC03 is bicarbonate (rather than carbonate CO3). I wouldn't say most paphs are calcareous. Very few if any of the barbata and pardopetalum are found on limestone. With a few exceptions brachys and parvis are, and most coryopetalum too. The single flower strap leaves are split about 2/3 calcareous too I beleive. Roth is an odd ball being associated with serpentine (Mg Si hydroxides). I don't think paphs are found on limestone to avoid competition. The plant species list that Averyanov includes in his descriptions of paph habitats is pretty impressive, and here in TN (karst limestone country), plant diversity is also very high. Also in the tropics it would seem that orchid diversity is highest for epiphytes (??) with pockets of accumulated moss and humus having a fairly low pH.
> 
> I think things are a bit more complex than just pH for understanding orchid community ecology, but at the gross physiological level, most of the basic nutrients that orchids need are bioavalable around neutral pH (6-8), and for a host of reasons pot pH drops with time, so adding a mild buffer to help keep the pH in a good range longer tends to help.


I'm reading the same thing I stated, just in a different order! The only thing missing is "this is my opinion" or facts with references. I'm not sure whether you're trying to add to the conversation or insult me.


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## Rick (Mar 31, 2009)

No insult intended, just trying to increase accuracy, and lend other ideas to the discussion.

1) There is a real difference between carbonate (CO3) and bicarbonate(HCO3)
2) When I did a rough count of calcareous to non-calcareous paph species it came out to about 33 to 42 (will depend on who's taxonomy used), lots of barbata species which are not found in association to outcrops of any particular geology, so I wouldn't say that most paphs are found in association with limestone outcrops.
3) I disagree with the idea that limestone outcrops are particularly challenging for plants to take advantage of leaving them available to fringe species like orchids. Actually I think they are very productive and diverse areas that allow for a higher number of rare plant species that captalize on deceptive pollination systems.
4) I agree totally that pot pH is an important parameter to consider in paph culture, and in closed pot culture the pH will drop with time and cause problems.


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## nikv (Apr 1, 2009)

Is there a list somewhere of the species that benefit from limestone and/or bonemeal? If so, please provide a link if you have one. Thanks!


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## SlipperKing (Apr 1, 2009)

nikv said:


> Is there a list somewhere of the species that benefit from limestone and/or bonemeal? If so, please provide a link if you have one. Thanks!


Nik,
I was actually trying to put one together for myself. I will take time tonight and put together what I have found so far.


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## Elena (Apr 1, 2009)

This is the link that I use 

http://www.ladyslipper.com/calsub.htm


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## SlipperKing (Apr 1, 2009)

Elena said:


> This is the link that I use
> 
> http://www.ladyslipper.com/calsub.htm


This is a good start Elena but it outdated( a few new speices need to be added)


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## nikv (Apr 1, 2009)

Thank you!


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## Rick (Apr 1, 2009)

nikv said:


> Is there a list somewhere of the species that benefit from limestone and/or bonemeal? If so, please provide a link if you have one. Thanks!



Nikv Just about any orchid will benefit from a shot of bonemeal during a fast growth time. Limestone or oyster shell should be used more judiciously.

Rick should have a good list coming up.


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## Wendy (Apr 1, 2009)

I'm really looking forward to the list! :clap:


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## SlipperKing (Apr 2, 2009)

This is a combination list from Antec and Stephen Manza's SlipperOrchids.info. I have a large number of old OD that I'm planning on looking through to see if anything old has been missed as well.
armeniacum
emersonii
hangianum
huonglanae
malipoense
micranthum
jackii
vietnamense all grow in the presence of limestone.
delenatii... no

bellatulum
concolor
godefroyae
(leucochilum)
niveum
thaianum
ang thong all yes to limestone

philippinense
sanderianum
stonei
glanduliferum (prasatans)
wilhelminiae
gigantifolium
kolopakingii *(updated)*
supardii
platyphyllum all yes to limestone

adductum (anitum) *updated*
randsii
rothschildianum
ooii no to limestone in their habitat


dianthum yes to limestone

haynaldianum
lowii sometimes yes and most of the time not growing in the presence of limestone

parishii no

glaucophyllum
moquetteanum
primulinum
liemianum
victoria reginae(chamberlainianum) yes to limestone

kalinae *(updated)*
victoria mariae no to limestone 

*more later*


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## Clark (Apr 2, 2009)

Thank you much. Clark
If its not too much trouble, is there a list up for the Phrags? Thanks


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## Rick (Apr 2, 2009)

From Cribb and Birk sources.

I have Limestone yes for kolo, and no for adductum and kalinae.

In situ photos of dianthum (Averyanov) do not look like plants are always in presence of rock outcrops though that may be the prevailing geology of the area. My sense is that this species is as dependent on limestone as lowii.


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## Wendy (Apr 2, 2009)

Thank you!


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## SlipperKing (Apr 2, 2009)

Thanks Rick. I updated the info listed above according to your fines.


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## Lance Birk (Apr 2, 2009)

nikv....

Do NOT think for even an instant that I have at any time recommended the use of limestone, or calcium, in the potting media for any paph species that I list in my book. Specific references in my book are strictly limited to the citations where particular species are found growing on limestone.

I have, on occassion, recommended the use of calcium to be incorporated into a potting medium for paphs, STRICTLY as a buffer against highly acidic water sources. If you wish for a list of species that would BENEFIT from calcium, you need to post the analysis of your water supply.

The rather common practice of using different forms of calcium, limestone, etc., in practically any potting mix used for _Paphiopedilum_ orchids is nothing more than BS (Bogus Science). This ridiculous idea has been perpetrated by ignorant individuals who are not thinking.

If it were true, that some paph species REQUIRE calcium (common preception), then why is it that in habitat we often find the same species growing both on limestone rocks AND on trees? 

Seems to me we'd have a lot more properly educated people if more of them would not base their education simply on what they read on the 'net.


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## Rick (Apr 2, 2009)

Lance Birk said:


> nikv....
> 
> Do NOT think for even an instant that I have at any time recommended the use of limestone, or calcium, in the potting media for any paph species that I list in my book. Specific references in my book are strictly limited to the citations where particular species are found growing on limestone.
> 
> ...



Lance your point on calcium needs has been discussed allot, and I believe there is a consensus that the plants are not after calcium per se as opposed to a balanced pH environment. Limestone, oyster shell, dolomitic and horticultural lime, and bone meal do help buffer pH in potting mixes. This has been thouroghly documented by non-bogus research. The effects of improper pH on plants (including paphs) has been studied allot too.

The selected use of any of the above items for pH control is a matter of individual strategy as much as anything else. In a bark based mixed with soft to moderately hard tap water for irrigation, pot pH's will drop fairly quickly, neccesitating frequent repotting. With the above materials pot pH will remain stable over much longer time frames.

Understanding the geology were these plants come from (at least for me)
has much more to do with understanding the stability and overall pH level these plants prefer to keep their roots attached to, rather than understanding their needs for particular element.

Horticulturists have been adding calcium bearing supplements to potting mixes and garden plots for 100's of years (for pH control), so I don't think anyone would hold you responsible for loosing their plants if they thought the habitat of these plants neccesitated certain horticultural requirements. 


I still think the air environment (as detailed in your book) is the most critical area that needs to be addressed for orchids before dealing with potting mixes and fertilizers.


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## Gilda (Apr 2, 2009)

So, what do you do with X's of these ? Do you use the same guidelines ?


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## Rick (Apr 2, 2009)

Lance Birk said:


> nikv....
> 
> If it were true, that some paph species REQUIRE calcium (common preception), then why is it that in habitat we often find the same species growing both on limestone rocks AND on trees?
> 
> Seems to me we'd have a lot more properly educated people if more of them would not base their education simply on what they read on the 'net.



Actually all plants and animals "require" calcium at some level for osmotic and metabolic function. Often in specific ratios to other elements too.

But generally there is more than enough Ca cycling around in the environment to meet this minimal need.

I would aggree that I have not seen any good research indicating that calcereous paphs require more than the ordinary amount of calcium than any other plant would require.

I would also hypothesize that limestone areas are a good source of phosphorus with stable pH's for optimal bioavalability(with good root microflora) year round. In tropical forest leaf litter, P is seasonally limiting.


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## Rick (Apr 2, 2009)

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ie50297a020

Does anyone want to spend the $30 to get this paper? The first page looks appropriate.


I'll see if I can get it through work otherwise.


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## Rick (Apr 2, 2009)

Gilda said:


> So, what do you do with X's of these ? Do you use the same guidelines ?



What do you mean by x's Gilda? Exceptions? If you are referring to non-calcareous species then my present strategy is to add more sand or leca to the otherwise basic bark media, add a dash of bone meal and try to stay religious about annual repotting.


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## nikv (Apr 2, 2009)

I think she meant crosses or hybrids. I would guess that one should research the pedigree of a particular hybrid and make an assessment of whether more than 50% of the genes are from species that grow in or near limestone.

I think I'll go with the bonemeal top dressing and hold off on the oyster shell or crushed limestone for now.


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## Gilda (Apr 2, 2009)

Rick said:


> What do you mean by x's Gilda? Exceptions? If you are referring to non-calcareous species then my present strategy is to add more sand or leca to the otherwise basic bark media, add a dash of bone meal and try to stay religious about annual repotting.



A hybrid X made with one parent that is calcareous and the other parent is non was what I was referring to. What do they get ?


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## Bob Wellenstein (Apr 3, 2009)

Hybrids between types tend to be the best of both worlds, not very finicky, treat them any way you want and they'l be fine. A couple of notes. Accurate communication depends on learning and using accurate terminology. The plants we are talking about are calcicoles, or calcicolous. They live on or in proximity to limestone substrate. A calcareous plant would be one using a calcium matrix of some sort for plant structure. I have some calcareous macro algae in a couple of my saltwater aquariums, but am not sure of what plants may fit this description. A couple of other points to remember, these have been in the articles at Ladyslipper.com for more than a decade, they are not new, but they seem to slip away in the instant forum world. Living as a calcicole may or may not be obligate. In other words, some plants may absolutely need these conditions, wheras others may tolerate it well but not require it. Another point, calcium carbonate, limestone, is not soluble in water. It is the H+ ions in the water that make it soluble, so its effects in a mix will depend on the pH of the irrigation water and its interactions with the other mix components. Just as a related side note, ignore the discussions of temperature of water relative to its ability to dissolve limestone, as said before solubility in water is near nil, the main reason cold rainfall can dissolve ever so slightly more limestone is that it has a higher capacity to pick up CO2 while falling, making it more acid. Those that said the tropical rains don't dissolve limestone have not looked at the karst formations where these plants often grow. Another terminology point, karst simply refers to heavily eroded limestone formations, not a chemical type of limestone specifically. A lot of questions about how this works (which is a great improvement over twelve or fifteen years ago when I first started talking about this and no one listened because limestone "didn't dissolve in tropical rains"). I have long argued that it wasn't anything to do with calcium, all plants have very high calcium needs and there are much better ways to supply it, and in experiments with supplying extra calcium to calcicoles without raising pH it did not do the trick. I do think pH plays a key role, but that is not the final answer. I think Rick is correct in that extra phosphorus is needed for these plants, we have always pulsed high phosphorus feedings as part of a fertilizing program (when I have been on the ball at least!). Listen to Rick on this. I am beginning to believe that the microbial population of the rhizosphere is the biggest key. Les Kirkegaard really provided some information that really convinced me, after some initial thoughts along these lines emerged from the success some folks were having adding methanol to their fertilizer, a sure way to boost microbial growth in the medium. This also fits in with the observation that use of oystershell or bonemeal properly also seems to accelerate the breakdown of the medium. Out of time for now!


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## Bob Wellenstein (Apr 3, 2009)

And one last comment - even if you ignore everything above, pull out the Epsom Salts and water all your plants with at least a teaspoonful per gallon next watering. And repeat every few months, regardless of what your water quality is or whatever miracle fertilizer you use, or secret incantation. A good magnesium boost from Epsom salts is one of the best regular additions to any program. Try it, it'll work.


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## Rick (Apr 3, 2009)

Thanks for the terminology corrections Bob. Having a background in reef tanks also, I incorrectly use the calciolus and calcareous terms interchangably.

I aggree that the solubility of limestone is just about nil as a free standing material under most clean water conditions,

But I have taken crushed limestone and stired into RO water over night, and got fairly decent amounts of disolved hardness and PO4 out of it. Otherwise to disolve it fast you need to get to a pH of <4.0

It should be noted that there are many forms (species if you like) of limestone with different solubilty characteristics. The closer it gets to dolomite the faster it breaks down and provides faster buffer support. In my experience, oyster shell is a much better buffer than most limestones, but contains no P initially. However, it sucks up phosphates like a sponge, and once saturated will act allot like bone meal for use.


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## Rick (Apr 3, 2009)

Bob Wellenstein said:


> And one last comment - even if you ignore everything above, pull out the Epsom Salts and water all your plants with at least a teaspoonful per gallon next watering. And repeat every few months, regardless of what your water quality is or whatever miracle fertilizer you use, or secret incantation. A good magnesium boost from Epsom salts is one of the best regular additions to any program. Try it, it'll work.



This is a good one that I know is used by lots of great growers.

With regards to our present thread. Dolomitic lime is heavier in magnesium than other forms of limestone, so using dolomitic lime in a potting mix could be a slow release version of magnesium spiking.


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Apr 3, 2009)

Bob- I didn't know you were into salt water also....I tried growing Halimeda once...it lasted maybe a few hours before my tang ate it all......Take care, Eric
PS..on another note...I have bought some bags of Espoma pelleted dolomite...while its for my yard, I did toss a few pellets in some of my parvi pots....Take care, Eric


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