# Paph. gratrixianum = Paph. villosum var. gratrixianum?



## The Mutant (Mar 21, 2012)

Are these synonyms?

I bought the latter today and (but it will not be shipped until May) and I want to know. I've checked the SlipperOrchid.info web site and found nothing about this, but searching on the web I found it, like here for example Paph. gratrixianum. 

I also realized that I'm very lucky. I have managed to pick two species Paphs that *DON'T* require any limestone in the substrate. Go me!


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## eggshells (Mar 21, 2012)

I believe they are separate species. Also paphs that are lime loving or not is not a big of a deal. You can easily augment them by adding dolomitic lime or oyster shells. Heck you probably don't need them at all if you are watering with municipal tap water as those have ph of 7.5 upwards usually. I do believe that once you get a couple of them. They will multiply very quickly. They seem to invite other species or hybrids in their growing area.


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## The Mutant (Mar 21, 2012)

As far as I've checked and understood it seems as though they actually are synonyms. I don't know how reliable the sources I've found are, but it seems as if they're pretty much in agreement with each other. 

Here's another page I found: Paphiopedilum gratrixianum

Another one: Paphiopedilum gratrixianum

And here: Paphiopedilum gratrixianum

And the always reliable wikipedia  : Paphiopedilum gratrixianum



So are they synonyms?


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## Rick (Mar 21, 2012)

Gratrixianum (either as gratrixianum or affine) does not have the same size or patterning as any of the dozens of varieties of villosum.

So if you get a villosum and a gratrixianum, you will get to see two different flowers (and plant habits). Villosum is almost strictly an epiphyte, and the Vietnamese form of gratrixianum (argueably P. affine by some, but still very similar to the form in Laos), is almost strictly terrestrial.

The most recent taxonomy also does not have them as synonomous species, with gratrixianum given species (not varietal status). Although as you can see from some of the documentation you have brought up, that gratrixianum has gone through a lot of nomenclature and taxonomic revision.


Although neither of these species are found on limestone cliffs, all plants (not just orchids, or slipper orchids) have a calcium requirment. You might want to check out some of the earlier threads on K-Lite fertilizing. Limestone in the substrate is not important for any paph as long as potassium levels are kept to a minimum and there is plenty of soluble calcium and magnesium in your irrigation water. This is pretty normal anyway for surface drinking waters, so this is easy to accomplish.


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## Rick (Mar 21, 2012)

The Mutant said:


> As far as I've checked and understood it seems as though they actually are synonyms. I don't know how reliable the sources I've found are, but it seems as if they're pretty much in agreement with each other.
> 
> Here's another page I found: Paphiopedilum gratrixianum
> 
> ...



Maybe part of your confusion is the application of synonyms. At least in this case, the past names for gratrixianum are listed as synonyms, but since they are all varieties of something or other, they are not implying that things labled as gratrixianum, affine, villosum var gratrix, or villosum var affine are going to be visually or systematically identical to the nomiminal variety of villosum. The most recent works by Cribb, Averyonov, and Koopowitz (as one that you noted for 2000) all list gratrixianum as a distinct species from villosum rather than just a different variety of it.

But that doesn't make all the past names go away (synonyms).


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## The Mutant (Mar 21, 2012)

Thanks for your answers Eric. Let's see if I've understood them also.

To be honest, the K-Lite discussion is a bit too high level for me. I'm just a newbie and no hobby chemist. Add to that the continental differences (where you talk about ppm etc) and I'm completely lost. Maybe I will find the threads dealing with this subject more accessible in the future when I'm a bit more enlightened about Paphs in general.

If I've understood you correctly, it's important that Paphs get their calcium and magnesium. How do I know that the potassium levels are kept low? I don't think I can find any fertilizer here in Sweden that doesn't include any potassium, but I'm not certain about this. And how do I make sure my future Paphs get the calcium and magnesium they need?

The next issue is the Paph. gratrixianum or Paph. villosum var. gratrixianum. What have I bought? Could it be that the seller used one of the no-longer vaild names for a Paph. gratrixianum? I hope so, because I don't want a Paph. villosum.

I'm sorry for asking even more questions...


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## eggshells (Mar 21, 2012)

What I can suggest for now is just feed your paphs very lightly. A 1/4 strength of what your fertilizer is suggesting. Although fertilizers vary greatly and the quarter strength approach is very subjective. These should get you started for now. 

Say I feed with a quarter of 7-9-5 NPK fertilizer per gallon of water once a week. Of course I have other nutrition that I put but for now you can start there.


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## The Mutant (Mar 21, 2012)

Thanks eggshells! I highly appreciate your suggestion. I'll use the same 5-5-5 fertilizer I use for my Phals (I always feed with a quarter of recommended dosage), since it's the one with the lowest ratio of potassium. I can add calcium and magnesium to this if necessary since I've found a calcium 70% and magnesium 30% powder mix online (it's a nutritional supplement, but I figured I could use it for the Paphs instead).

How does this sound? Good? Bad? Insane?


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## eggshells (Mar 21, 2012)

I think you got it. Just get calcium nitrate and magnesium sulfate if its available to you. Rick can tell you how much per gallon of water plus your 5-5-5


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## The Mutant (Mar 21, 2012)

Thanks again for writing out the full names of the chemicals needed. I've found both of them online and they're just a mouse-click away. Now I might have some happy Paphs later on.


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## Rick (Mar 21, 2012)

The Mutant said:


> The next issue is the Paph. gratrixianum or Paph. villosum var. gratrixianum. What have I bought? Could it be that the seller used one of the no-longer vaild names for a Paph. gratrixianum? I hope so, because I don't want a Paph. villosum.



The odds are very good that if gratrixianum was listed as either the species or variety name, you should not get a regular villosum.

Even when not in bloom the plant habit is usually quite easy to tell apart. Although the big wide leafed version of gratrixianum from Laos is closer to a regular villosum in plant habit.

Generally gratrixianum (at least the more common variant from Vietnam) is a small/medium plant with narrow upright leaves and purple spotted on the backside of the leaves from the base to maybe 1/3 up the leaves. Regular villosum is a large floppy leaved plant that may or may not have some purple spotting around the base of the plant, but in general much less than what a gratrixianum would have. The Laotian gratrixianum can be somewhat intermediate in plant habit between a typical villosum and a Vietnamese gratrixianum (sometimes called P. affine). But for some reason the Laotion gratrixianum do not seem as commonly available as the Vietnamese forms.

I think you can search for an old thread (I think by Poozcard, or maybe Paphioboy) that had some insitu photos of Laotian gratrixianum.


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## eggshells (Mar 21, 2012)

I forgot to add teaspoon. Should be 1/4 teaspoon per gallon.


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## The Mutant (Mar 22, 2012)

Rick said:


> The odds are very good that if gratrixianum was listed as either the species or variety name, you should not get a regular villosum.
> 
> Even when not in bloom the plant habit is usually quite easy to tell apart. Although the big wide leafed version of gratrixianum from Laos is closer to a regular villosum in plant habit.
> 
> ...


Again, thank you so very much. Unfortunately I won't get the plant until May so I'll have to be patient.

Do you have anything to add to the calcium nitrate and magnesium sulfate question? Like how much I should add to a gallon of water and a 1/4 tsp of 5-5-5 fertilizer? 



eggshells said:


> I forgot to add teaspoon. Should be 1/4 teaspoon per gallon.


I made that assumption, but it's good that you clarified it.


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## Rick (Mar 22, 2012)

What is the normal recommended mixing rate for the 5-5-5?

Does it have a trace nutrient mix too?

Can you get a kelp extract?


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## emydura (Mar 22, 2012)

Both villosum and gratrixianum are pretty easy to grow. In fact I would say gratrixianum is the easiest of all Paph species to grow and flower. They both form large clumps easily and quickly.

I noticed huge improvements in my Paphs when I decreased the potassium and increased the calcium and magnesium as Rick suggests. Having said that both villosum and gratrixianum were flourishing before this fertiliser change. So they should do well under most conditions.


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## The Mutant (Mar 22, 2012)

Rick said:


> What is the normal recommended mixing rate for the 5-5-5?
> 
> Does it have a trace nutrient mix too?
> 
> Can you get a kelp extract?


The recommended mixing rate is 7ml/L (1.4 tsp/0.3 gallons) every second watering. So far I've only used 1/4 of the recommended dosage and according to a member of OB I haven't fed my Phals any fertilizer at all.

Um, yes, it has:
Boron 0.02%
Copper 0.004%
Iron 0.04%
Manganese 0.02%
Molybdenum 0.002%
Zinc 0.004%

I don't know... I'll have to check.



emydura said:


> Both villosum and gratrixianum are pretty easy to grow. In fact I would say gratrixianum is the easiest of all Paph species to grow and flower. They both form large clumps easily and quickly.
> 
> I noticed huge improvements in my Paphs when I decreased the potassium and increased the calcium and magnesium as Rick suggests. Having said that both villosum and gratrixianum were flourishing before this fertiliser change. So they should do well under most conditions.


Yes, I've read that here so it's great that the Paph. gratrixianum is one of my favourite. I don't know how difficult the second one is, it's a Paph. cermanense (or a Paphiopedilum bullenianum var. celebesense). I think this is the one that I'll receive first.


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## The Mutant (Mar 22, 2012)

Question: Is kelp extract the same as seaweed extract? If so, I can get it.


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## eggshells (Mar 22, 2012)

The Mutant said:


> Question: Is kelp extract the same as seaweed extract? If so, I can get it.



Yes that's right.


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## The Mutant (Mar 22, 2012)

Cool. Thanks again eggshells.


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## Rick (Mar 22, 2012)

So if you are only dosing at 1/4 strength, then your effective feeding rate is actually 1.25-1.25-1.25 rather than 5-5-5

So I would make up a gallon of your 1/4 strength 5/5/5 and add 1/8 tsp of calcium nitrate, and 1/4 tsp of Epsom salts (only 1/8 tsp if you use anhydrous MgSO4).

If your seaweed/kelp extract is similar to mine (no significant NPK), then I add 1/4 tsp per gallon to the above fertilizer mix.

This should give you a fertilizer mix that doses N at roughly 30 or so ppm, and you can feed this weekly instead of every other week.

If you are growing in a GH and expect longer/warmer/brighter summer days then you can probably use 1/4 tsp/gal of calcium nitrate.

Sorry for lack of metric units for this orchid cooking recipe


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## The Mutant (Mar 22, 2012)

Rick said:


> So if you are only dosing at 1/4 strength, then your effective feeding rate is actually 1.25-1.25-1.25 rather than 5-5-5
> 
> So I would make up a gallon of your 1/4 strength 5/5/5 and add 1/8 tsp of calcium nitrate, and 1/4 tsp of Epsom salts (only 1/8 tsp if you use anhydrous MgSO4).
> 
> ...


Thank you so very much. I'll do this when my two victims have arrived. I'm only a windowsill grower, so no greenhouses for me.

It's perfectly okay, there are plenty of converters online I can use to translate your units to mine. 

Again, thank you!


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## The Mutant (Mar 23, 2012)

Pweh! I've now ordered the epsom salt, seaweed extract, and almost the calcium nitrate. The last one is not easy to find and impossible to buy online. Considering all the googling I've done on it I wouldn't be surprised if the police paid me a visit (it must be a reason why it's so impossible to find and hard to order). This all for some mere orchids! :rollhappy:


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## Marc (Mar 23, 2012)

Buy K-lite from Ray, it's main nitrogen source is calcium nitrate if I'm not mistaken. I payed around 25,- euros incl shipping from the US to the Netherlands.


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## Rick (Mar 23, 2012)

Marc said:


> Buy K-lite from Ray, it's main nitrogen source is calcium nitrate if I'm not mistaken. I payed around 25,- euros incl shipping from the US to the Netherlands.



Yes, do so if you can get it into Sweden. You can still add the kelp to it also.


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## The Mutant (Mar 23, 2012)

Rick said:


> Yes, do so if you can get it into Sweden. You can still add the kelp to it also.


Does he ship to Sweden? I honestly think it'll be cheaper for me to buy these things separately here in Sweden instead (they'll last me a lifetime I think!). I know that most stores in the UK won't ship any liquids to Sweden, why this is so, I don't know.


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## Rick (Mar 23, 2012)

The Mutant said:


> Does he ship to Sweden? I honestly think it'll be cheaper for me to buy these things separately here in Sweden instead (they'll last me a lifetime I think!). I know that most stores in the UK won't ship any liquids to Sweden, why this is so, I don't know.



K-lite is dry powder/granule


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## The Mutant (Mar 24, 2012)

Rick said:


> K-lite is dry powder/granule


Aha, I had no idea! :rollhappy:

I still think it's cheaper for me to buy the necessary things here in Sweden though.


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