# Silence, I noticed your thread about Live Sphagnum moss



## Lance Birk (Dec 31, 2006)

Silence,

Live Sphagnum moss is really magic stuff. If you have any ailing orchid, potting it in the live (NOT the dead moss) will bring it back to health. This is the moss found growing in bogs in Michigan and other northern states. It can be collected and kept alive in a deep tray of distilled water. It needs sufficient light to maintain its health, but not so much as to allow algae to grow.

You need to pot the moss firmly, in a white (not clear) plastic pot and water it every time with distilled water. Rainwater might do as well, but since I’m in California, we don’t have rain here. Never use fertilizers with living Sphagnum. 

Before 1970, P. delenatii was just about impossible to grow (if you could ever find a piece of one), but I was given some live Sphagnum by Larry Heuer (who’s father lived in Michigan) and I potted my plant in it. Subsequently, I wrote an article about my success and had it published in the Orchid Digest, Vol.34/8, 1970. There are a few photos showing roots as thick as a Phalaenopsis. Read the article, it’s rather informative.

My first P. delenatii plant grew in a 3.5 inch square, white Jardiniere pot and produced 9 stems and 13 flowers. Larry’s dad died and I was unable to get more moss so I can’t tell you much more about how long it lasts, etc., but mine stayed in that pot for about 2 years or so, starting from a one and a half growth plant.

You should note, that in my paph book I suggest the use of moss in potting mixes, but NOT Sphagnum moss, it is the green moss, or sheet moss like that used to line Azalea baskets you see at the nurseries all the time. That moss is superb when used with fir bark and river sand.

Incidentally, if you do manage to get any living Sphagnum bog moss, I’d certainly appreciate having a small bag of it, but I guess that’ll have to wait until things thaw out. Can you let me know if you find a source?

And, how 'bout a progress on how your project turned out.

Lance Birk


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## kentuckiense (Dec 31, 2006)

Over the summer, while assisting with a floristic study, cdub and I ran across some stuff that looked like live sphag. No idea if if the stuff grows in eastern Virginia, but I know that cdub took a tiny bit and potted up a paph seedling. Maybe he could update us.


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## terrestrial_man (Dec 31, 2006)

*I grow sphagnum!*



Lance Birk said:


> Silence,
> 
> Live Sphagnum moss is really magic stuff. If you have any ailing orchid, potting it in the live (NOT the dead moss) will bring it back to health. This is the moss found growing in bogs in Michigan and other northern states. It can be collected and kept alive in a deep tray of distilled water. It needs sufficient light to maintain its health, but not so much as to allow algae to grow.
> 
> ...



Hello Lance,

It is Jerry Copeland up in Santa Maria. I have been growing sphag for a year or so. If you check my website and click on the banner to my bog you will learn what I did. You can grow sphagnum down there too. I use ro water. 
Here is the link to my front door, click on it to my front page
http://jsionline.freeservers.com/
I will be glad to send you some but confirm that your mailing address is still the p.o. box in SB?
you can email me at
<a href="mailto:[email protected]">Here</a>
does html work on this site??
The sphag is from NY.
Check out my bog pages you might find it interesting. I recommend that you start your own bog but don't weeds grow in it!!!

The freeservers site is funny as sometimes the images won't come up unless you right click and click Show picture
This may happen on my front door which is a cool image I did on this machine! Enjoy.


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## Persephone (Dec 31, 2006)

Hi there. I visited your site and enjoyed your bog journal. As a matter of fact I will revisit your site again to read the rest of your postings. Very interesting, very informative. I was looking into a moss garden on part of my property. The habitat has changed though this year. Several severe storms have taken out about six trees. I'll have to give it a year or so to see what springs up in the area. There's an old maple tree gone hollow that needs to come down in that area. I'm in Northern NJ so the habitat is quite different than yours.


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## terrestrial_man (Dec 31, 2006)

*Moss habitat??*

Hi Persephone!
Thanks for visiting. I got alot about the different plants I grow but not as much I want to write about, such as the Selaginella and the Lycopodiums which are both surviving my lack of really trying to cultivate them. 

I grow my mosses in pots or actually now I am using little food storage cups that I have poked holes in. Will have to image one and post. At the moment I have no idea what is doing that great. Been too busy on many many things. But here is a tidbit. I had gotten a Selaginella species from an East Coast grower and set it outside and later discovered that a piece of it fell into one of the mosses and it has grown even though the large plant sufferred and is now in my greenhouse in a glass jar!

I would recommend that you take a digital and image every area where your mosses are growing to see what is there. I also recommend that you try growing in a container just to see how the plant responds and perhaps you can grow a bunch of "plugs" that you can use to start mosses at appropriate spots. 

I am attaching an image of a moss that I used on a sheet I made up on mosses that I am growing though I do not know if they are all in tip top shape at this time-I just spray and water as many are buried under the shade of other plants and I do not want to disturb them until I try repotting. 

Enjoy.

Also my website contains some personal experiences that may interest those whose path lie in the unordinary or I don't believe this stuff!!! But :crazy: might be a better word!!!!:rollhappy: 

Cheers.


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## silence882 (Dec 31, 2006)

Hello Lance,

My experiment was a spectacularly mundane failure. I got a bag of it from Equilibrio Carniverous Plants (http://equilibriocarnivorousplants.com/). I 'planted' it by placing it on dead sphag in a saucer. It survived and stayed green as long as I kept the saucer wet, but it never seemed to grow. I grow indoors, so humidity is never high and I don't think the sphag appreciated it. Eventually I ended up throwing out what little I had.

I never used it as a medium for my paphs. I started using a CHC mix after converting to Antec-ianity and got such great results, that I lost interest in my experiment.

If you're looking for a supplier, Equilibrio still carries cultivated Canadian sphag for $5 a liter. It is listed on their site under supplies -> potting mixes.

--Stephen


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## terrestrial_man (Dec 31, 2006)

Hello Silence,
I tried your link above but got a 404 site not found error message. If Lance wants he can get some from me. 
What sphagnum likes is quality water, coolness at least at night. If you mist frequently each day it should be no problem. Cheers.


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## Ernie (Dec 31, 2006)

Copy and paste the link and remove the close parenthesis ")". It got included in the url link and causes a misfire. 

-Ernie


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## Rick (Dec 31, 2006)

I have allot of mosses (not just sphagnum) growing with my orchids, and although I wouldn't claim them to be a panacea to sick orchids, I would say that the plants with thriving moss do seem to do better than those without.

Allot of the mosses in my collection came in incidentally with various orchids (especially the Pleurothallids) and I just transplant pieces here and there with new plants and save sections when I repot.

I water with RO water and maintain humidity levels in xcess of 70%.


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## Bolero (Dec 31, 2006)

Does anyone else have problems with the moss staying to wet for to long?

Mine never dries out for some reason and it's a worry......not that I want it completely dry but a little bit would be good.

;-)


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## terrestrial_man (Jan 1, 2007)

Bolero said:


> Does anyone else have problems with the moss staying to wet for to long?
> 
> Mine never dries out for some reason and it's a worry......not that I want it completely dry but a little bit would be good.
> 
> ;-)



Don't water so much!!!:rollhappy:


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## likespaphs (Jan 1, 2007)

Bolero said:


> ...Mine never dries out for some reason and it's a worry......



don't worry.
don't let it go dry. it won't mind, as long as the water isn't stagnant...
only time i've lost live moss is when it goes dry.
in my experience, it takes a very long time to grow. the moss has to 'awaken', then grow until it's mature enough to make those thingies moss makes instead of flowers, then they'll mature and makes spores(?) then those will have to germinate, grow until mature enough to make those thingies, etc...
a long time ago (six+ months) i cut up a bunch of live sphag as i've heard that's one way to propagate it... i think they're just now starting to grow.


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## NYEric (Jan 1, 2007)

I think the longest I kept moss alone alive for was 9 mo. Good Luck.


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## terrestrial_man (Jan 1, 2007)

You can keep mosses going a long time. Generally most are damaged by fertilizers and pesticides. Drench your pots with the mosses especially after feeding your orchids as that might help extend the life of the mosses.
I have been growing the same moss population for over 2 years. Image is of one that was growing on regular commercial planting mix. Just don't ask me what it is. Haven't had time to find out!!


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## Lance Birk (Jan 3, 2007)

Silence, thanks for the update.

For other posters who have responded here, it seems my point was missed, so I'll try again.

Live Sphagnum moss (bog moss) is Magic. If you have a sickly plant, potting it in live Sphagnum moss will bring about a remarkable recovery. It should be the sole ingredient. This is not the moss that grows on tops of media, and this moss should not be used as part of some other mix ingredient.

Live Sphagnum needs to be potted firmly, in WHITE plastic pots, and watered only with distilled water and/or open-collected rainwater (not runoff-collected). Fertilizers will kill the moss as will softened water or chlorine and chloramines. 

If I had any phrags, I'd pot them in this live moss only.

Lance Birk


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## NYEric (Jan 3, 2007)

Umm, Lance what were those I bought from you?


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## NYEric (Jan 3, 2007)

Must be a different Lance.


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## Heather (Jan 3, 2007)

NYEric said:


> Must be a different Lance.



Most definitely....


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## Persephone (Jan 3, 2007)

Lance Birk said:


> Silence, thanks for the update.
> 
> Live Sphagnum moss (bog moss) is Magic. If you have a sickly plant, potting it in live Sphagnum moss will bring about a remarkable recovery. It should be the sole ingredient. This is not the moss that grows on tops of media, and this moss should not be used as part of some other mix ingredient.
> 
> ...



Why only _*white*_ plastic? If fertilizers will kill the moss, how does one use any fertilizer for the orchid, or are you saying that no fertilizer should be used at all. If no fertilizer is used at all, and you're using distilled water, from where does the orchid get any nutrients? Sorry if my questions seem silly, but I'm quite new at all this.


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## gonewild (Jan 3, 2007)

Different Lance here....

I don't know much about moss but Belinda is growing some pretty nice moss in our seedlings. This is a paph compot planted in NZ sphagnum from a bale. It was potted up about 5 months ago. The moss is growing quite well now and gets a fertilizer solution several times daily intended for the paph seedlings. 

So is this not Sphagnum? It certainly grows with fertilizer added to the water.







As to Lance's original comment about Sphagnum having a healing effect for plants, that certainly could be true as indegious people in Peru use Sphagnum type moss as a medicinal plant. I can't quite remember what the old fellow told me it was good for but he said it was a good plant to heal with.


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## gonewild (Jan 3, 2007)

NYEric said:


> Must be a different Lance.



I'm a different Lance, what was your question?


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## gore42 (Jan 3, 2007)

Persephone,

Lance Birk suggests using white pots because 1) clear pots let in too much light and promote algae growth, 2) dark pots don't let in enough light for the moss to grow. 

I haven't tried growing anything in pure sphag, so I don't know this from experience, this is something that Lance explained to me or I read it in his book (more likely), I don't remember which.

I have found that fertilizer, at the very dilute amount that I use it, doesn't seem to kill the moss that I have growing on the tops of my pots, though.

As Ever,
Matthew Gore


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## Persephone (Jan 3, 2007)

I see I'm going to have to purchase a few books!


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## Lance Birk (Jan 3, 2007)

Persephone,

Matt gore answered correctly about white pots.

And, you will get an excellent education by reading books and orchid journals, especially some of the very old AOS Bulletins and any of the past Orchid Digest periodicals.

You can read some chapters of my own book by visiting- lancebirk.com, I suggest you read the chapter "Potting Media."

Good luck,

Lance Birk


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## Eric Muehlbauer (Jan 3, 2007)

Although sphagnum has a reputation for harboring sporotrichosis, it also has the reputation of being good for treating wounds...this goes way back, apparently it was traditionally used in bandaging wounds, even in the US...my guess is that the acidic pH prevented bacteria from growing...of course, sporotrichosis is a different thing (a fungus, I believe?)..and I'm not so sure as to how seriously warnings should be taken about it....I'll wash my hands well after potting with sphagnum, but I'm not into the rubber glove thing....Take care, Eric


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## terrestrial_man (Jan 3, 2007)

Bolero,
What kind of mix is your moss growing on top of??

Normally a healthy growth of moss will indicate a soil mix that has broken down or a very closed mix which could be bad for most epiphytic types of orchids. This does not include mosses on mounts or used as a topping on gravel or inert mixes.


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## terrestrial_man (Jan 3, 2007)

Hey Lance Birk (didn't realize there are two Lances here!!)
are you still looking for sphagnum. I grow it.
I will mail you some but I need to know if you will be around to pick it up at your p.o. box
Can't do it until I hit town next week!

Eric,
Not rubber gloves but the latex ones-perfect thin and are not a hassle. Use them to keep the hands clean and dry!


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## terrestrial_man (Jan 3, 2007)

gonewild said:


> Different Lance here....
> 
> I don't know much about moss but Belinda is growing some pretty nice moss in our seedlings. This is a paph compot planted in NZ sphagnum from a bale. It was potted up about 5 months ago. The moss is growing quite well now and gets a fertilizer solution several times daily intended for the paph seedlings.
> 
> ...



Lance, gonewild
Did someone answer you on your moss. That is some good looking sphagnum moss!!!!! 
Looks like fertilizing is not harming it. I think what it is is how often you water and just how much watering you do. such as drenching rather than sprinkling. ??


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## terrestrial_man (Jan 3, 2007)

Here is a link to my experiences in growing sphagnum.
http://www.jsionline.freeservers.com/p1bog.html
Enjoy.


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## Ernie (Jan 4, 2007)

Lance Birk said:


> Persephone,
> 
> Matt gore answered correctly about white pots.
> 
> ...



Persephone,

Lance's book is VERY insightful. A must read for slipper growers IMO. He treats cultural conditions as dynamic and interactive (with each other :wink: ) which few other authors stress. As far as the pictures in it, i've heard folks say they are poor, BUT he has pix in there of plants in/from their natural habitats, not awarded clones. Gives a better perspective of them. Great job Lance. My two fave orchid books are Lance's and Taylor's Guide to Orchids. 

-Ernie


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## NYEric (Jan 4, 2007)

gonewild said:


> I'm a different Lance, what was your question?


Oh, I was refering to the Phrags I purchased from Lange/Gonewild's online store. Don't mind me, I was just confused.


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## gonewild (Jan 4, 2007)

NYEric said:


> Oh, I was refering to the Phrags I purchased from Lange/Gonewild's online store. Don't mind me, I was just confused.



That is me. I am the different Lance. Lance Birk started this thread and I tried to help you become unconfused.


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## gonewild (Jan 4, 2007)

terrestrial_man said:


> Lance, gonewild
> Did someone answer you on your moss. That is some good looking sphagnum moss!!!!!
> Looks like fertilizing is not harming it. I think what it is is how often you water and just how much watering you do. such as drenching rather than sprinkling. ??



The moss pots get fertilizer water sprinkled on with a micro wand two times per day. Enough water to wet the moss but not a drench. The fertilizer is MSU added to RO water at a rate of about 450-600 ppm total. Additionally several times per day the pots are misted with a micro mist with pure RO water. The moss does stay wet but not saturated.

Maybe it is certain salts in water that hampers the moss growth and not just "fertilizer" in general?


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## terrestrial_man (Jan 4, 2007)

gonewild said:


> The moss pots get fertilizer water sprinkled on with a micro wand two times per day. Enough water to wet the moss but not a drench. The fertilizer is MSU added to RO water at a rate of about 450-600 ppm total. Additionally several times per day the pots are misted with a micro mist with pure RO water. The moss does stay wet but not saturated.
> 
> Maybe it is certain salts in water that hampers the moss growth and not just "fertilizer" in general?




Hello Lance Gonewild!
Sounds great what you are doing. What bothers the mosses is for salt accumulation that will burn the plants to death. But with the constant supply of water intermingled with applications of diluted fertilizer they are not impacted as long as the water drains through the pot.

Sphagnum needs to be wet. If you checked out my bog pages you will see that my moss is in a container from which there is no drainage at all. I may modify it when I start pulling out the sedges that have grown in the bog and insert a tube that I can pour water into and have it flood out over the lip of the tub. I spray the bog daily several times a day except like today when it is raining here. 

Your method on the paph seedlings looks like a great system. Have you tried with phrag seedlings??


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## gonewild (Jan 4, 2007)

terrestrial_man said:


> Your method on the paph seedlings looks like a great system. Have you tried with phrag seedlings??



Yes, Phrag seedlings grow even better.


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## smartie2000 (Jan 6, 2007)

Interesting info Birk  I hope to try live sphag one day


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## likespaphs (Jan 6, 2007)

i've got several types of mosses i'm trying to grow...perhaps i've mentioned that. a while ago i read somewhere about cutting up moss into very small pieces and the moss will regenerate. i did that with one type, i don't think a sphagnum-type, about eight months ago and put the pieces into the water tray i keep filled for the some of the carnivorous plants. nothin' happened. a few months ago, i transfered one tray to a cooler growth chamber, that we just happen to have open right now and a few weeks ago, i noticed tiny green things floating on some weird goo that was in the tray. took a look at it today, and it's moss! little tiny moss!


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## terrestrial_man (Jan 11, 2007)

likespaphs said:


> i've got several types of mosses i'm trying to grow...perhaps i've mentioned that. a while ago i read somewhere about cutting up moss into very small pieces and the moss will regenerate. i did that with one type, i don't think a sphagnum-type, about eight months ago and put the pieces into the water tray i keep filled for the some of the carnivorous plants. nothin' happened. a few months ago, i transfered one tray to a cooler growth chamber, that we just happen to have open right now and a few weeks ago, i noticed tiny green things floating on some weird goo that was in the tray. took a look at it today, and it's moss! little tiny moss!



What types of mosses are you trying to grow?
Got any images?
How is this surprise little moss doing?


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## likespaphs (Jan 11, 2007)

surprise little moss is doing well. just on my way out for the day, so no photos today. if i remember, maybe tomorrow or over the weekend....
most of the moss is just random stuff that started to grow on the sphag and peat in which i have my carnivorous stuff planted. some is some live sphag a guy in the new england carnivorous plant society gave me...


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## likespaphs (Jan 13, 2007)

tried to take some photos, they came out very poorly, so, no photos....


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## Heather (Jan 14, 2007)

likespaphs said:


> tried to take some photos, they came out very poorly, so, no photos....



So, how will we know you are telling the truth, oh Master of the Moss??


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## Mark (Jan 14, 2007)

Not having enough live sphag for the whole pots, I've potted up a couple of plants needing reviving with dead chilean in the bottom and a wreath of the live stuff around the plant itself. We'll see if it'll jump start these that have been just keeping time in sphag-and-box.


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## likespaphs (Jan 14, 2007)

Heather said:


> So, how will we know you are telling the truth, oh Master of the Moss??



is this were i'm suppose to say bend over and i'll show you?
oh, wait a minute. that's what i'm not suppose to say....


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## NYEric (Jan 14, 2007)

Since I never see any it must be illegal to sell in NYC.


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## terrestrial_man (Jan 15, 2007)

Mark said:


> Not having enough live sphag for the whole pots, I've potted up a couple of plants needing reviving with dead chilean in the bottom and a wreath of the live stuff around the plant itself. We'll see if it'll jump start these that have been just keeping time in sphag-and-box.



Mark, I think your approach will work as long as you use distilled or r/o water. In making a bog I used peat moss which is just ground up dead sphagnum plus other mosses and whatever else was in the ground that they harvested!




NYEric said:


> Since I never see any it must be illegal to sell in NYC.



Eric, have no clue why you cannot find live sphagnum in NY. There are no carnivorous plant dealers there anymore? The live sphagnum I got came from NY. You should probably find Chilean live for sale from carnivorous plant growers ?????

likepaphs, :drool: 
please try again when you can on getting images of your mosses. It would be cool to see them. And you do not have to bend over to do so !! Yo!:noangel: 

Heather!!!!!!:rollhappy: :rollhappy:


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## likespaphs (Jan 15, 2007)

*you asked for it...*

here are some of the mosses
oh, and just for the record, i don't consider myself as the king (though i just got a crown at the dentist's...), i just feel i got lucky....
this is the green goo that i think preceeds moss, though i could be wrong









some of the floating moss 'buttons' i dropped in the water





yeh, i got a lotta peat in those trays... dead leaves too... oh well.


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## smartie2000 (Jan 15, 2007)

I think the green gooo is an alga
Nice healthy bryophytes!


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## Heather (Jan 15, 2007)

You certainly have a knack for growing and *blooming* the CPs there Brian. Very nice! 

I have moss envy.


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## likespaphs (Jan 15, 2007)

smartie2000 said:


> I think the green gooo is an alga...



i dunno. it seems that shortly after the goo is seen on the media (typically peat moss), moss starts growing. i'm quick to jump to conclusions, though....


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## Rick (Jan 21, 2007)

I wondered about this as the "magic" of growing paphs in moss. Keep in mind that the active ingredient in Superthrive (napthyl acetic acid) is a synthetic auxin, or auxin mimic to Indole-3-acetic acid.

http://journals.tubitak.gov.tr/botany/issues/bot-02-26-1/bot-26-1-3-9912-2.pdf

This paper says that mosses produce these hormones, but doesn't say they excrete these hormones. But a healthy growth of live moss will also have a bed of dead and composting moss underneath as an alternative way to release these growth regulating hormones.


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## Rick (Jan 21, 2007)

Here's another paper that suggests a more fundamental reason for live moss. Nitrogen fixing.

http://www.evergreen.edu/ICAN/pdfs/gradprogram pdfs/3_Nutrient cycling/clark et al. 2003.pdf


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## smartie2000 (Jan 21, 2007)

Definitely N fixing in rain forests, I learned in botany. I also have some green balls on my phrag's bark and roots in addition to bryophytes. They look like Nostoc to me, which are N fixing alga. I don't know what else the green balls could be...


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## likespaphs (Jan 22, 2007)

took a look under a microscope at the green goo and it's mostly what appear to be green single celled organisms, or how i might imagine algae would look under a microscope... some of them move around.
actually, i should say single celled as i wouldn't necessarily know what a single celled organism looked like if it bit me on my a$$...
hmmm... biting my @$$... it _is _almost my birthday...


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## etex (Oct 1, 2010)

Good stuff, once the confusion over the 2 Lance's was cleared up!!


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## SlipperFan (Oct 1, 2010)

Rick said:


> Here's another paper that suggests a more fundamental reason for live moss. Nitrogen fixing.
> 
> http://www.evergreen.edu/ICAN/pdfs/gradprogram pdfs/3_Nutrient cycling/clark et al. 2003.pdf



Link doesn't work for me. Do you have another way in?


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