# Paphiopedilum coccineum Blooms



## Phred (Aug 18, 2020)

This is a reliable bloomer... two open flowers and a bud on its way.


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## DrLeslieEe (Aug 18, 2020)

Very nice. Well grown!

What are the dimensions of plant and flowers?

Hoping both of mine will bud soon.


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## Guldal (Aug 20, 2020)

#1 is just that! Such awesome colouring!


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## Pinebark (Aug 20, 2020)

Wow! Beautiful.


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## GuRu (Aug 21, 2020)

That's a very nice P. barbigerum (var. coccineum).


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## Guldal (Aug 21, 2020)

GuRu said:


> That's a very nice P. barbigerum (var. coccineum).



Rudolf, I think, the taxonomic nitpickers would insist on: P. barbigerum var. lockianum!


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## Phred (Aug 21, 2020)

GuRu said:


> That's a very nice P. barbigerum (var. coccineum).





Guldal said:


> Rudolf, I think, the taxonomic nitpickers would insist on: P. barbigerum var. lockianum!


Am I incorrect that Kew considers coccineum a valid species? Check out link:






Paphiopedilum coccineum Perner & R.Herrm. | Plants of the World Online | Kew Science


The native range of this species is Vietnam. It is a perennial and grows primarily in the wet tropical biome.




powo.science.kew.org


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## GuRu (Aug 21, 2020)

Phred said:


> Am I incorrect that Kew considers coccineum a valid species? Check out link:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Phred, we came across this issue in another thread few weeks ago. You get different, sometimes contrary statements from different but KEW based sources.
Your link to a KEW based source says P. coccineum is a true species. This link to another KEW based source says Paph coccineum is a synonym to P. barbigerum.
Even P. barbigerum var. coccineum or P. barbigerum var. lockianum are synonyms according to this source. It's a bit confusing and IMHO in the end everyone has to decide for himself which name he/she writes on the tag.


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## Guldal (Aug 21, 2020)

GuRu said:


> Even P. barbigerum var. coccineum or P. barbigerum var. lockianum are synonyms according to this source. It's a bit confusing and IMHO in the end everyone has to decide for himself which name he/she writes on the tag.



Rudolf, I, actually, in this case do not find, that it's just a matter of opinion (chacun son gout), more of the strength of the argument: Averyanov, Cribb, et al. in their 'Slipper orchids of Vietnam' have the strongest argumentation for considering these plants a variety of barbigerum, and hence their designation of them as 'P. barbigerum var. lockianum' ought to be followed. 
This is also a case demonstrating, why in such matters, one can't solely take recourse to a mere check list, but has to consult the litterature to see the discussion expounded in the full!
Ultimately, no one can of course control, what individual growers choose to write on their name tags, but that's quite another matter and not necessarily linked to the most valid botanical designation of the plants!


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## GuRu (Aug 22, 2020)

Guldal said:


> Rudolf, I, actually, in this case do not find, that it's just a matter of opinion (chacun son gout), more of the strength of the argument: Averyanov, Cribb, et al. in their 'Slipper orchids of Vietnam' have the strongest argumentation for considering these plants a variety of barbigerum, and hence their designation of them as 'P. barbigerum var. lockianum' ought to be followed.
> This is also a case demonstrating, why in such matters, one can't solely take recourse to a mere check list, but has to consult the litterature to see the discussion expounded in the full!
> Ultimately, no one can of course control, what individual growers choose to write on their name tags, but that's quite another matter and not necessarily linked to the most valid botanical designation of the plants!



Jens, my statement was meant with regard to the two contrary statements of KEW based sites. Of course there are always arguments to discuss before making a decision. I for myself who just can percept only for visible traits wouldn't consider it to be a true species but a variety of P. barbigerum. I would like the best P. barbigerum var. coccineum even when it's contrary to your sight. Funny how some people e.g. Orchids & more can't make a decision. They offer P. barbigerum var. coccineum and P. barbigerum var. lockianum side by side.


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## Phred (Aug 23, 2020)

According to AOS SITF see the following from their blog:

*Paphiopedilum barbigerum var. coccineum determined to be Paphiopedilum coccineum*
Posted on January 01, 2015

Paphiopedilum barbigerum var. coccineum , award 20142044, has been determined to be Paphiopedilum coccineum by SITF

(Jan 2015). 

I’m going with Paphiopedilum coccineum. I believe AOS has already awarded coccineum a CHM (certificate of horticultural merit)


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## GuRu (Aug 24, 2020)

Phred said:


> According to AOS SITF see the following from their blog:
> 
> *Paphiopedilum barbigerum var. coccineum determined to be Paphiopedilum coccineum*
> Posted on January 01, 2015
> ...



O.K. no problem Phred, maybe you're right. Just btw, after it's discovery it was descibed as P. coccineum in 2000. Few years later moved to P. barbigerum var. coccineum and P. barbigerum var. lockianum and from the beginnings there has been a struggle between taxonomists who see it as a true species v.s. others who see it as variety of P. barbigerum. And obviously the struggle is going on.


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## Phred (Aug 24, 2020)

GuRu said:


> O.K. no problem Phred, maybe you're right. Just btw, after it's discovery it was descibed as P. coccineum in 2000. Few years later moved to P. barbigerum var. coccineum and P. barbigerum var. lockianum and from the beginnings there has been a struggle between taxonomists who see it as a true species v.s. others who see it as variety of P. barbigerum. And obviously the struggle is going on.



I'm sure... lol.


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## DrLeslieEe (Aug 25, 2020)

Coccineum is an accepted valid species as of today (based on the latest Kew information). The AOS has since recognized it with a CHM in both 2017 and 2018. 

Lockianum is not accepted as barbigerum or coccineum but rather as vejvarutianum (as of today).

Hope that clears everything lol.


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## hamiltons (Aug 25, 2020)

Very nice type of coccineum, well grown healthy plant...Attached is photos of one coccineum I used to have, a very nicely colored clone, but unfortunately it died of spider mite attack along with mealy bugs...R.I.P


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## GuRu (Aug 25, 2020)

DrLeslieEe said:


> Coccineum is an accepted valid species as of today (based on the latest Kew information). The AOS has since recognized it with a CHM in both 2017 and 2018.
> Lockianum is not accepted as barbigerum or coccineum but rather as vejvarutianum (as of today).
> 
> Hope that clears everything lol.



Leslie, it isn't that easy, nothing is clear. You must read the thread from the beginning and furthermore follow the links. I'm sure after you have done this you will see the problem. Lol


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## GuRu (Aug 25, 2020)

hamiltons said:


> Very nice type of coccineum, well grown healthy plant...Attached is photos of one coccineum I used to have, a very nicely colored clone, but unfortunately it died of spider mite attack along with mealy bugs...R.I.P



Sorry to hear this sad story because it was a very good one. Damn stupid that this happened.


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## DrLeslieEe (Aug 25, 2020)

GuRu said:


> Leslie, it isn't that easy, nothing is clear. You must read the thread from the beginning and furthermore follow the links. I'm sure after you have done this you will see the problem. Lol


Guru, I have read the thread several times before I replied. 

No matter what is printed out there, this and that, the fact remains that the coccineum is a valid species. You can have all different opinions and same sources say otherwise, but as of today both Kew and AOS has determined coccineum as a true species. That is my whole point. And what judges at shows will follow when we screen this species,


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## DrLeslieEe (Aug 25, 2020)

hamiltons said:


> Very nice type of coccineum, well grown healthy plant...Attached is photos of one coccineum I used to have, a very nicely colored clone, but unfortunately it died of spider mite attack along with mealy bugs...R.I.P


Fantastic red colors on this one. Too bad it is no longer with us.


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## Phapbaby (Aug 25, 2020)

BEAUTIFUL!!!!


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## Phred (Aug 25, 2020)

DrLeslieEe said:


> Coccineum is an accepted valid species as of today (based on the latest Kew information). The AOS has since recognized it with a CHM in both 2017 and 2018.
> 
> Lockianum is not accepted as barbigerum or coccineum but rather as vejvarutianum (as of today).
> 
> Hope that clears everything lol.


Well that's just excellent... I have a vejvarutianum about to bloom. I've been waiting for a few years. I bought two from Andy's... bloomed one right away and selfed it. The flower was ordinary so I gave it to a friend. The two plants were identical in the beginning but the one I kept has developed a lot of red at the base of the leaves.


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## Phred (Aug 25, 2020)

My Paphiopedilum vejvarutianum leaves


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## DrLeslieEe (Aug 26, 2020)

Looks like the leaves and markings of my sulivongii, which incidentally is in bud. I wonder if both are similar and misidentified as well. Guess we can compare when they come into bloom.


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## NYEric (Aug 26, 2020)

Thanks for sharing and the info. I never thought coccineum is the same as barbigerum. Doesn't look the same. ?


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## Guldal (Aug 26, 2020)

hamiltons said:


> Very nice type of coccineum, well grown healthy plant...Attached is photos of one coccineum I used to have, a very nicely colored clone, but unfortunately it died of spider mite attack along with mealy bugs...R.I.P


A sad tale of a very coccineum (red) flower! My most heartfelt commiserations!



DrLeslieEe said:


> Lockianum is not accepted as barbigerum or coccineum but rather as vejvarutianum (as of today).
> Hope that clears everything lol.



Well, Leslie, now you make the confussion total: P. barbigerum var. lockianum was described by Averyanov, Cribb, et al. as endemic to Vietnam (maybe also the South West of China, will have to look that up, when at home and with "Slipperorchids of Vietnam" at hand). P. Vejvarutianum is found in SW China and Thailand?

I bought my Vejvarutianum from a local (as in Denmark) orchid provider, who herself is of thai origin, and acquainted with mr. Vejvarut. Having seen the plant in flower once, I would say, that it clearly differs from lockianum/barbigerum - hopefully I wil one day be able to present a photo to take the discussion further.

Do you have a source for the proposition, that "Lockianum is not accepted as barbigerum or coccineum but rather as vejvarutianum (as of today)"? That would be an interesting read!

Kind regards,
Jens


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## DrLeslieEe (Aug 26, 2020)

There is really no confusion with the most updated information on the WCSP website from Kew, which the world’s taxonomists and judges follow:




All other information and literature (books, reviews, opinions, textbooks, articles, etc) are for reference only. Unless Kew changes the name in future, the experts follow this for now.


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## Hakone (Aug 26, 2020)

has any of you already seen coccineum semi album?


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## Phred (Aug 26, 2020)

Off subject but here's a photo of my first vejvarutianum to bloom.


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## DrLeslieEe (Aug 26, 2020)

Hakone said:


> has any of you already seen coccineum semi album?


I think the coccineum album/aureum is much prettier.


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## DrLeslieEe (Aug 26, 2020)

Phred said:


> Off subject but here's a photo of my first vejvarutianum to bloom.View attachment 21924


These all look like barbigerums with slight color differences. IMO they should be relegated to varietal subspecies of barbigerum.


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## Phred (Aug 26, 2020)

DrLeslieEe said:


> These all look like barbigerums with slight color differences. IMO they should be relegated to varietal subspecies of barbigerum.


Mine are much bigger than any barbigerum I've ever seen.


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## DrLeslieEe (Aug 26, 2020)

Phred said:


> Mine are much bigger than any barbigerum I've ever seen.


Indeed there are size differences for sure in regards to floral and vegetative parts, but there are some large barbigerum plants and flowers too. 

The vejvarutianums do have more distinct elongated stems reminiscent of sulivongii, with densely purple dots. For this reason, sulivongii IMO also is part of the barbigerum complex, perhaps a subgroup.


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## GuRu (Aug 27, 2020)

DrLeslieEe said:


> There is really no confusion with the most updated information on the WCSP website from Kew, which the world’s taxonomists and judges follow:
> ....................All other information and literature (books, reviews, opinions, textbooks, articles, etc) are for reference only. Unless Kew changes the name in future, the experts follow this for now.



O.K. Leslie, so I will delete this link The Plant List from my favourites.


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## DrLeslieEe (Aug 27, 2020)

Guru, do not delete as it is still a good source of information. Just know that WCSP from Kew has the final say in the legal current acceptable name (though there might not always be agreeable to all, even experts, and may change over time with new evidence ).


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## Hakone (Aug 27, 2020)

he's beautiful too

Paphiopedilum barbigerum f. duyduongii


https://orchidee.de/neubeschreibungen/2018/11/Paphiopedilum_barbigerum_f_duyduongii.pdf


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## blondie (Aug 27, 2020)

Really nice blooms


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## DrLeslieEe (Aug 27, 2020)

Here’s my sulivongii in bud. Note the similarity of the intense dark purple spotting on the stem, similar to the vejvarutianum.




Interestingly sulivongii has been moved by WCSP to a variety of gratrixianum (from previously barbigerum!). Great way to confuse more people lol. See below.


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