# Has anyone planted a flask of paphs directly into sphagnum?



## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Sep 12, 2020)

Well it's all there in the title. I've planted flasks of phals directly into sphagnum moss but never paphs. Has anyone done this? Looking for pros and cons.


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## Ray (Sep 12, 2020)

I’ve done paphs flask-to-S/H several times, so I don’t see how flask to sphagnum would be a problem unless you packed it too dense and saturated it.


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## orchid527 (Sep 12, 2020)

Bob in Albany N.Y. said:


> Well it's all there in the title. I've planted flasks of phals directly into sphagnum moss but never paphs. Has anyone done this? Looking for pros and cons.


I put some tigrinum seedlings out of a flask from Sam into sphagnum and they are doing just fine after 2 months. Also, I have started putting phrag seedlings from flask into sphagnum and it seems to work well, especially for kovachii. The phrags show excellent root growth in moss and I am hoping to see the same with the tigrinums. I've not seen a downside yet, but I change the moss several times a year and I only use it with small plants in small pots. Mike


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Sep 12, 2020)

I am planting them in the 4.5 inch square compot trays that Orchid Limited sells. These are 2.5 inches high. However, I bought these some time ago when you could buy a clear 4 inch top. I love these for getting flasks started. Actually have a fair number of these if someone can't find them. I had my normal seedling mix that I use for 2 1/2 inch pots and even placed the first 4 or 5 seedlings into it, before deciding to to to sphagnum moss. These complex seedlings had stayed in the flask to long so had started to lose the lower leaves to browning. Just got the flask so couldn't have potted out sooner. When I purchased the flasks I wasn't aware of this, HOWEVER, the price were more than fair. The other two flasks one a species and one another complex look great. Will leave them in the flask for a while. The helenae flask even is showing lots of roots on the bottom of the flask. Just as a side note, I've done phrag. flasks directly in moss and they did do great. Then just moved them up to 2 inch pots with moss.


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## KateL (Sep 13, 2020)

I plant all my Paph and Phrag flasklings into sphagnum in the first instance, with good results. Do you have a particular concern, Bob?


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Sep 13, 2020)

KateL said:


> I plant all my Paph and Phrag flasklings into sphagnum in the first instance, with good results. Do you have a particular concern, Bob?



No Kate, no real concerns. Just never had great luck with paph. flasks in the past and wanted to do it right. My thoughts were that possible it would be too wet as many of the flasklings had a very small root system. As luck would have it, when I went to get out the sphagnum moss I didn't need to soak it as I had recently put it way damp after using it last time. So didn't need even need to water the seedlings after potting them out.


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## KateL (Sep 13, 2020)

One mistake I have made with paph flaskings is that I have tried to “separate and sort” them just out of the flask like I do phrags, which seems to set the Paphs back. Their roots tend to be more brittle. Also, I “tent” my flasklings for a while out of flask to help transition them out of the flask environment to the real world - with Paphs, I have to watch them more closely as they seem more prone to damping off. So I am usually untenting them within about 2 weeks. I suspect others might treat with Physan or something, but I generally don’t.
If you have poor flask roots, sphagnum is the way to go. It really stimulates root growth in my experience. 
Best of luck!


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## KateL (Sep 13, 2020)

orchid527 said:


> I put some tigrinum seedlings out of a flask from Sam into sphagnum and they are doing just fine after 2 months. Also, I have started putting phrag seedlings from flask into sphagnum and it seems to work well, especially for kovachii. The phrags show excellent root growth in moss and I am hoping to see the same with the tigrinums. I've not seen a downside yet, but I change the moss several times a year and I only use it with small plants in small pots. Mike


Hi Mike, I was interested in the comment that you change the moss several times a year. I do find that phrags, in particular, respond well to ”freshening“, but not that often. For me, I change when they are doing really well (upsize) or really poorly (rescue attempt) or at six months from deflasking and then yearly. If I can keep up. . . .lol. I have used sphagnum all the way to large plants, but am transitioning out for most 4 inch pots and up. I would say the long-petalled ones especially dislike sphagnum after the first pot up from the compot. For me, of course. I continue to get excellent root growth at all sizes, but the vegetative parts seem to be suboptimal at some point in the sphagnum. Not sure why that is, but if I transition them to the M LeDoux bark mix (as modified for my habits/environment), I get firmer leaves and what looks like stronger growths. I am relatively early into this transition, so I am not sure about how it will work longer term. Best, Kate


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## orchid527 (Sep 13, 2020)

Kate

After 4-6 months, I have a lot of algae growing on the moss. It doesn't cause any problems, but I don't care for the look. By then, the fastest growing plants are ready to move into single pots. So, I gather all of the compots from the source flask and remove all of the seedlings. This is the first time I do serious culling and the largest get moved into 21/2 inch pots with moss. All of the rest are put into compots again with fresh moss and foam peanuts on the bottom. I keep repeating this as the algae builds up and finally I end up with a handful of runts that I usually throw away. The compots are 4 inch and I have been doing this with phrags for about 2 years. Previously, I had used Promix, but the moss results in better root growth. I used both concurrently for about a year for comparison.

As the plant and pot sizes increase, I move to Orchiata + perlite. The moss stays wet for too long in larger pots and the risk of rotted roots is too great. I get good results for 5 - 8 inch pots with Orchiata + Perlite. For plants in large nursery containers, I am comparing Promix vs Orchiata + Perlite. I have traditionally used the former, but some plants just don't do well in the long run. I do not know yet if the O+P is a better choice. Those comparisons have been going on for about a year.

For paphs, I have just started with the tigrinums. I have some in O+P and some in moss. All previous paph flasks have been put into compots with O+P, but Sam indicated that he was seeing a lot of loss with tigrinums, so I thought the moss might be worth a try. I'll post some photos later so you can see for yourself.

Mike


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## orchid527 (Sep 13, 2020)

Here are the photos comparing tigrinum in Orchiata + perlite vs moss. The plants have been in the compots for about 2 months. The roots of the seedlings did not appear to penetrate into the flask medium very well, but they were adequate. After taking the time to compare these, I've decide to move ALL of them into moss tomorrow. Mike


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## Ozpaph (Sep 13, 2020)

I stopped using sphag. The paphs do well for a few months them poorly. Back to bark based mix...........


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## Ray (Sep 14, 2020)

Kate’s suspicion that folks deflask seedlings then treat them with Physan is, unfortunately, all too common.

I don’t know why folks would do that. The seedlings coming out of the flask are, and have been sterile from the get go, and Physan does not lend any protective action going forward. Plus, it is a stress they don’t need.

If you want to increase the likelihood of survival, go with a probiotic, instead. There is a lot of evidence that Inocucor did just that. Now that it’s no longer being made, I suspect that Quantum-Total (Quantum Orchid at a much better price) has similar protective benefits, but I have no first-hand knowledge of that.


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## littlefrog (Sep 14, 2020)

I have always thought the same thing as Ray, flasklings are sterile until you make them unsterile... No point in treating with physan and I never do that. Really never understood why that was a thing. I have seen my success rate really jump when I moved to using innocucor.

I deflask 20-40 flasks per year (sometimes more, sometimes less, depends on how frisky I get when I see Sam at a show and how many of my own flasks come back).

I don't separate seedlings for paphs or phrags. I rinse off as much of the agar as I can (I didn't even do that in the past, it still works), and split the clump roughly down the middle to make two (rarely three) clumps. Those go into 3.5" short round pots in a bark based medium (no orchiata - just regular old fashioned seedling bark) which has been pre-wetted with Innocucor. I usually spray the tops with more innocucor solution. Everything goes into a quart ziplock bag with the bottom corners cut off, the bag is sealed and I proceed to basically ignore them for several months. After a few months I open the top and water as needed (never more than once a week in my conditions) for a few more months. Then I remove the bag entirely and either pot up or let them sit until they look ready to pot up.

I have used sphagnum in the past, but for me it is just more work with no additional benefit. I work faster with seedling bark than sphagnum. And I'm usually doing at least a dozen flasks at a time.

Oh, and labels. Labels!!! Don't assume if you label one and put the other one next to it you will know what it is in 6 months. You won't. Trust me.


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## richgarrison (Sep 14, 2020)

littlefrog said:


> Oh, and labels. Labels!!! Don't assume if you label one and put the other one next to it you will know what it is in 6 months. You won't. Trust me.


Amen brother.... Dunno how many plants I have with 'either this that or the other thing' on the label. Where waiting for a flower is all I can really hope for.


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## Bob in Albany N.Y. (Sep 14, 2020)

As far as marking compots and pots I finally found something that has worked great. It's a gold marker by pilot. (extra fine point paint marker). You need to shake it up then press the tip down and write. It takes a little getting used to because if you hold that tip down too long a blog of paint comes out. Love it on black or dark green pots the best but also works on clear pots. Can also use it on labels. I believe the number on the product may be 41500.


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## KateL (Sep 15, 2020)

Ray said:


> Kate’s suspicion that folks deflask seedlings then treat them with Physan is, unfortunately, all too common.
> 
> I don’t know why folks would do that. The seedlings coming out of the flask are, and have been sterile from the get go, and Physan does not lend any protective action going forward. Plus, it is a stress they don’t need.
> 
> If you want to increase the likelihood of survival, go with a probiotic, instead. There is a lot of evidence that Inocucor did just that. Now that it’s no longer being made, I suspect that Quantum-Total (Quantum Orchid at a much better price) has similar protective benefits, but I have no first-hand knowledge of that.


Ray, I have been husbanding my Inocucor, just using it with KelpMax for new new flasklings (and a couple of rescue missions). It really has seemed to help with the survival rate, particularly the weaker flasklings that might otherwise damp off.


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