# Have you seen something like this on the leaves?



## Happypaphy7 (Aug 25, 2016)

This is Paphiopedilum Louis Jernigan (roth x Wellesleyanum).

I had two medium sized seedlings about two years ago, and they have been growing very very well so far.

As I was examining the underside of the leaves today, I noticed something very disturbing on one of the plants. 
Of 12 leaves, all the leaves except for the very bottom two leaves and the newest leaf on top, show this symptom.

There are lots of these lighter greenish yellowish regions all over the leaves, but only visible from the underside.
The advanced cases have orange brown mark at the center as seen on the second picture. 
By the way, those big dark marks are mechanical damage caused by me last year. 

The other seedling is free of this symptom. 

In the third picture, the one with two growths on the right side is the one with this strange marks.

The last photo is from the internet and something I'm looking forward to, although I know the chance of having that is quite low here, not to mention see this thing ever even flower.


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## Ma_sha1 (Aug 25, 2016)

I am interested to know what they are. I have similar spots on my Phrag China Dragon.


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## gonewild (Aug 25, 2016)

Picture does not have enough resolution to see detail.
Could be mite damage.


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## Ray (Aug 25, 2016)

My thought, as well.


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## Happypaphy7 (Aug 25, 2016)

Nope. These are not mite damage.

By the way, these are not the best pictures, but on my screen, I can see pretty well.
Do you see those mottling all over the leaf in the first picture??
About three of them have darker center.

Then, the second photo shows lots of them with the dark center.

I'm thinking rust disease, which is fungal I believe?
Or virus? I remember seeing oncidium intergeneric with certain virus looking similar. 
Whatever it is, it is just horrifying to me. 
I hate problems!


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## gonewild (Aug 25, 2016)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Nope. These are not mite damage.
> 
> By the way, these are not the best pictures, but on my screen, I can see pretty well.
> Do you see those mottling all over the leaf in the first picture??



I see the spots but when I enlarge the image to try to see detail in the spots they are too blurry to evaluate.


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## Stone (Aug 25, 2016)

I had the same thing on a couple of leaves of a Phrag caudatum last year.
Most of the yellow blotches didn't form dark lesions. At first I thought it was a deficiency but it's not. It wasn't any kind of pest either. That leaves a fungus of some kind.
Check out Phyllosticta too!
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...ved=0ahUKEwie6pbV3d3OAhUGjJQKHfmqDjUQ_AUICCgB


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## Happypaphy7 (Aug 25, 2016)

Sorry, just phone camera here. lol 

Well, there aren't much to see actually. 
There are no indentation. Just smooth fiat surface with these mottling happening inside the leaves but only on the underside. 
Then when they get older, these orange brown marks set in. 
Literally like a rust. 

Sort of like the Gloria Naugle I posted last year, except with GN, the dark marks are nearly black and very small, like a pin head. 

Now, I looked up some nutritional deficiency with spots. Mn, Zn, Ca. I can erase out the first two because with these, there is usually other symptoms before the spots appear. Ca is closer but I've been feeding good this year, and other plants are fine. So I doubt this is nutritional.
Plus, overall growth of this particular plant has been great. Still getting bigger and lushing a new leaf as you can see in the third pic. 

So that's why I'm looking at diseases. But what?


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## Happypaphy7 (Aug 25, 2016)

I guess I'll wait and see. 
I just hate this idea of it being a disease and possibly spreading to other plants while waiting to see what happens. 
I'm a bit, or a lot, paranoid when it comes to suspicious marks on plants. 
Then, again, who doesn't like clean healthy looking plants?


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## Stone (Aug 25, 2016)

Happypaphy7 said:


> I guess I'll wait and see.
> I just hate this idea of it being a disease and possibly spreading to other plants while waiting to see what happens.
> I'm a bit, or a lot, paranoid when it comes to suspicious marks on plants.
> Then, again, who doesn't like clean healthy looking plants?



Well you should spray a good fungicide anyway. Can you get Bayleton or Zaleton there?


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## Happypaphy7 (Aug 25, 2016)

But I'm an indoor grower. 
I don't want to use anything harmful for me.


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## gonewild (Aug 25, 2016)

If it were a rust there should be some "rust" powder formed. 
I dont think it is a Rust fungi, wipe the leaf with a white tissue and see if anything wipes off. 
It could be a different fungal infection but taking guess based on what we can see in the pictures will just likely mislead you.

If you suspect a nutrient deficiency and can't confirm one then also consider a potential toxicity. But that is not going to be easy to prove.

Have you looked real close with a magnifying glass?


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## Stone (Aug 25, 2016)

Here is a sequence of pics of the caudatum starting with the worst , first affect leaf. (After regular spraying. Nothing else changed)





Next leaf




Next leaf




Next....slowly getting better




Newest leaf on this growth. Problem is finally gone




Fl bud! :clap:


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## Happypaphy7 (Aug 25, 2016)

Wait, so those strange yellow marks went away?? 
What's in that spray you used? 
Is it like Mancozeb?


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## abax (Aug 25, 2016)

Cleary's 3336 is a good fungicide that is systemic rather
than a spray. I have an enormous bag of it that I bought
and stored. If you'd like to try it, I can send you all you
want. If I remember correctly, I have about 30 lbs. of it!
It was on sale...whatcha gonna do.


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## Erythrone (Aug 26, 2016)

Happypaphy7 said:


> I guess I'll wait and see.
> I just hate this idea of it being a disease and possibly spreading to other plants while waiting to see what happens.
> I'm a bit, or a lot, paranoid when it comes to suspicious marks on plants.
> Then, again, who doesn't like clean healthy looking plants?



My 2 cents.... I am with you when you say you are an indoor grower and don't want to use stuff that is too "strong" (even outdoors I don't use such stuff anymore). So, we don't know for sure what is the problem with your plants and you don't want to use "strong stuff". And, worse, you are afraid it could spread. So maybe you could use a home made remedy that is useful against fungii, bacterias, insects, mites... Cinnamon extract/alcool-water. I always have a few bottles of this stuff, ready to use if I don't really know what I am fighting (I am not always sure if something is fungal of bacterial... ). Of course, if the plant became sick because of cultural fault, we must change something in the growing conditions.


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## Stone (Aug 26, 2016)

Happypaphy7 said:


> Wait, so those strange yellow marks went away??
> What's in that spray you used?
> Is it like Mancozeb?



Yes Mancozeb and cinnamon. No, the marks do not go away but each new leaf had less and less until they came out clean. Kind of strange!


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## Brabantia (Aug 27, 2016)

Erythrone said:


> My 2 cents.... I am with you when you say you are an indoor grower and don't want to use stuff that is too "strong" (even outdoors I don't use such stuff anymore). So, we don't know for sure what is the problem with your plants and you don't want to use "strong stuff". And, worse, you are afraid it could spread. So maybe you could use a home made remedy that is useful against fungii, bacterias, insects, mites... Cinnamon extract/alcool-water. I always have a few bottles of this stuff, ready to use if I don't really know what I am fighting (I am not always sure if something is fungal of bacterial... ). Of course, if the plant became sick because of cultural fault, we must change something in the growing conditions.


Erythrone have you a good procedure to prepare alcohol cinnamon extract ? Do you use ethanol or rubbing alcohol (isopropanol IPA). How much cinnamon powder for 1 liter of alcohol?

Envoyé de mon Nexus 9 en utilisant Tapatalk


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## Erythrone (Aug 27, 2016)

Brabantia, you can thank Ray for the procedure since mine is inspired from the one on his website:

http://firstrays.com/free-information/pests-ailments/home-remedies/
I basically use extract with rubbing alcohol, but at the end I add water to the remaining liquid (50 % water for 50 % extract). I prefer doing this since I've found isopropyl alcohol to be too much dessicant for many plants.


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## Happypaphy7 (Aug 27, 2016)

abax said:


> Cleary's 3336 is a good fungicide that is systemic rather
> than a spray. I have an enormous bag of it that I bought
> and stored. If you'd like to try it, I can send you all you
> want. If I remember correctly, I have about 30 lbs. of it!
> It was on sale...whatcha gonna do.



Thanks for the offer, Angela. 

I've heard about that stuff, but yes, they are sold in a large quantity because they are for commercial growers as I understand it. 

Let me think about it.


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## Happypaphy7 (Aug 27, 2016)

Erythrone said:


> Brabantia, you can thank Ray for the procedure since mine is inspired from the one on his website:
> 
> http://firstrays.com/free-information/pests-ailments/home-remedies/
> I basically use extract with rubbing alcohol, but at the end I add water to the remaining liquid (50 % water for 50 % extract). I prefer doing this since I've found isopropyl alcohol to be too much dessicant for many plants.



I read that ethanol penetrates tissues and therefore do damages to plants.


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## Happypaphy7 (Aug 27, 2016)

Stone said:


> Yes Mancozeb and cinnamon. No, the marks do not go away but each new leaf had less and less until they came out clean. Kind of strange!



They look similar. Did those mottling eventually develop darker centers on them??

Glad to hear things are under control.
I heard mancozeb is not that scary but it's all relative, right?
I'm not even sure if I could get it in a small package, though.


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## Erythrone (Aug 27, 2016)

Happypaphy7 said:


> I read that ethanol penetrates tissues and therefore do damages to plants.



I use isopropyl alcool, not ethanol.


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## Stone (Aug 27, 2016)

Happypaphy7 said:


> They look similar. Did those mottling eventually develop darker centers on them??
> 
> Glad to hear things are under control.
> I heard mancozeb is not that scary but it's all relative, right?
> I'm not even sure if I could get it in a small package, though.



No darker centers. You can get mancozeb on ebay here in small packets. Maybe they will send to you?


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## Happypaphy7 (Aug 27, 2016)

Stone said:


> I had the same thing on a couple of leaves of a Phrag caudatum last year.
> Most of the yellow blotches didn't form dark lesions. At first I thought it was a deficiency but it's not. It wasn't any kind of pest either. That leaves a fungus of some kind.
> Check out Phyllosticta too!
> https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...ved=0ahUKEwie6pbV3d3OAhUGjJQKHfmqDjUQ_AUICCgB



Thanks for the link.
Yes, I'm familiar with this disease. Pretty much all the vandas in botanical garden here have this on them. Very unsightly! It's possible the spores travelled home with me. lol 
Since the symptoms vary depending on the genus, I have no idea how this disease manifest itself on paphiopedilums.


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## Happypaphy7 (Aug 27, 2016)

Erythrone said:


> I use isopropyl alcool, not ethanol.



Good!


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## Happypaphy7 (Aug 27, 2016)

Stone said:


> No darker centers. You can get mancozeb on ebay here in small packets. Maybe they will send to you?



I'll have a look, but I really rather not spray.


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## JAB (Aug 28, 2016)

Just because you grow inside does not mean you have to apply anything inside. Take it outside and spray it. 
The SOLE way to prevent fungal and bug infection is prophylactic spraying on a regular basis.


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## Ozpaph (Aug 28, 2016)

Id take it outside and use a good fungicide.


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## Happypaphy7 (Aug 29, 2016)

I'll think about it. 
One bad memory comes to mind, though.

Once, I was spraying a couple of plants outside. 
I was making sure the wind direction is in a way that I won't get showered by the spray. 
Well, a sudden change of wind at the moment of spraying had it all over my hands and face. I dropped everything and ran back inside and took a very loooong shower. lol


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## Ozpaph (Aug 31, 2016)

Fungicides aren't that toxic - but good to shower/wash if sprayed.


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## abax (Sep 3, 2016)

I repeat Cleary's 3336 is not a spray. It is a drench and
free if you want some.


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## JAB (Sep 7, 2016)

Uhhhhh.... Ozpaph.... there are fungicides out there that when combusted turn into cyanide. To make a statement like "fungicides aren't that toxic" is both ill-informed and irresponsible! 
I am not sure about Aus. but most every state in the union has a permit course (ours is through the WA state dept. of agriculture for instance) one has to take to apply pesticides/fungicides, and they offer a study guide for said test. I cannot suggest enough that every single person who keeps more then 2 plants get the book and study it (not necessary to take the test unless you are working in the hort field). You will learn a lot (like for instance fungicides CAN be lethal!) and have a new found respect for our earth and the f*$%ed up **** man creates and dumps back into said earth! 

Knowledge is power. 
Cheers
JAB


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 7, 2016)

abax said:


> I repeat Cleary's 3336 is not a spray. It is a drench and
> free if you want some.



Thank you, I'll give it a thought.

I'd like to read about their safety. In case the solution land on my skin or eveys and they will deteriorate into dark foamy mush in five minutes kind of stuff. jk! 
You know what I mean. I'm a bit crazy that way, but safety rules for me!


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 7, 2016)

I just had a looooong last look at my Louise Jernigan and threw it away in the garbage. It just looked too horrible and I also bought some more plants that are on their way, and I want to buy new flask now. hahahaha

I gave one plant away to Eric as part of bartering for DB.
Thank you, again, Eric!!

Lately, I'm dealing with more spotting diseases than I've even had. This has never happened before. 
I took one bulb out of four on each and every tier. hopefully this will help. 

I might need to move more toward leuchochilum, niveum, thaianum and other warmer growing plants. rather stressed and burned out is how I feel.

On the flip side, I am excited about Wössner China Moon and Rolfei in low sheath among other things. Please don't be ugly! hahaha


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## Justin (Sep 7, 2016)

Having totally clean leaves is near impossible. They are living organisms...some scarring over time is normal.


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## Happypaphy7 (Sep 7, 2016)

It is possible. Vast majority of my plants are spotless. 
I'm not worried about mechanical damage, but potential diseases freak me out. it takes the fun of the hobby out for me.


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