# P. Parishii & P.Dianthum



## Hyun007 (Feb 16, 2016)

Is it possible to differentitate this 2 plants by just observing the leaves?


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## troy (Feb 16, 2016)

I'm pretty sure parishii is bigger than dianthum, and leaves tends to be a little darker


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## Hyun007 (Feb 21, 2016)

troy said:


> I'm pretty sure parishii is bigger than dianthum, and leaves tends to be a little darker



It will be difficult for me to differentiate.
I bought myself a Parishii but a lady who has more experience with Paphiopedilum told me it is a Dianthum.

I will need some references please.


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## mrhappyrotter (Feb 21, 2016)

Hyun007 said:


> It will be difficult for me to differentiate.
> I bought myself a Parishii but a lady who has more experience with Paphiopedilum told me it is a Dianthum.
> 
> I will need some references please.



Can you post some photos of the foliage on here, and include some reference objects (i.e. ruler) to help us get a better idea of size? It may be possible that the experts on here could weigh in with some opinions. Granted, they'll basically be just that -- opinions, until the plant blooms, any ID would still be tentative.


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## PaphMadMan (Feb 21, 2016)

The defined physical differences between parishii and dianthum are mostly in the inflorescence and flower. Good photos might allow someone with an experienced eye to make a good guess. Measurements of leaf length and width and good pictures of whole plant and leaf tips may be most helpful.

Interpreting descriptions in Braem's Paphiopedilum 2nd edition, the clearest physical differences may be: 

distinctly bilobed leaf tips and leaf width significantly over 5cm should indicate parishii, but narrower leaves don't necessarily mean anything;

and leaf length significantly over 40cm may indicate dianthum, but shorter leaves don't necessarily mean anything;

and leaves curved upward with no more than 6 leaves per fan may indicate dianthum.

Maybe.


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## Hyun007 (Feb 21, 2016)

PaphMadMan said:


> and leaf length significantly over 40cm may indicate dianthum, but shorter leaves don't necessarily mean anything;
> 
> 
> Maybe.



I thought over 40cm should be Parishii??? I did read 15 to 20 inches for Parishii and Dianthum is 12-15inches long?


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## Happypaphy7 (Feb 21, 2016)

I thought flowers were clearly different to my eyes.
Petal colors and especially the angle of how two petals stretch outward, the dorsal rolling among other things.
never really paid attention to the leaves much.


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## emydura (Feb 21, 2016)

On my plants the leaves on the parishii are narrower and longer while the dianthum is much shorter and quite broad. The dianthum is quite a chunky plant with fleshy leaves. But this is all based on a small number of plants.


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## Hyun007 (Feb 22, 2016)

After reading, there are quite a few different opinions among us. 

I finally get another reference from slipperorchids.info as it was down for quite a number of days.

I measure the leaves, the fattest wide has to be over 6cm. One of the longer leaves is about 44cm. Most of the leaves tend to be more upright than curve. The end tip is like a small heart. I actually have 2 seperate plants, one is smaller but the other is a mature bunch. Judging by the website and some of the give informations here with reference, it is very likely to be a Paphipedilum Parishii. 

I am a little reluctant to show the picture as the experts here will straight away see whom i bought it from and there will be quite a few bullets firing at me for that.


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## SFLguy (Feb 22, 2016)

Why would there be bullets flying because of who you bought it from?


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## Hyun007 (Feb 22, 2016)

SFLguy said:


> Why would there be bullets flying because of who you bought it from?



It is from the wild.


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## PaphMadMan (Feb 22, 2016)

Since there was some question about which should have longer leaves I double checked what I paraphrased from Braem Paphiopedilum 2nd edition. No change here, just reiterating Braem.

parishii - leaves up to 40cm long and 6.5cm wide, two lobed at the tip

dianthum - leaves 20-50cm long and 2-5cm wide, obliquely obtuse (that would translate as rounded but acentric) at the tip, up to 6 leaves often curved upward 

I think it is worth remembering that leaf descriptions are a minor part (if any) of the details used to distinguish species in publication. What one book or any source says probably does not capture the extent of variability, and the real distinctions are in the flowers and inflorescence. While the plant in question here was apparently wild collected, plants in cultivation might have some parishii x dianthum background no matter how they are being represented, or several generations of selective breeding might significantly change traits seen in wild populations.


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## Hyun007 (Feb 22, 2016)

Very well written PaphMadMan.


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## Stone (Feb 22, 2016)

Parishii has thicker, more succulent leaves to withstand the long dry as an epiphyte. Dianthum leaves are standard. This is from my young plants and the big parishii I had once. It had very thick leaves. Maybe 5mm at the thickest part.


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## troy (Feb 22, 2016)

Just because it's from the wild doesn't mean wverybody hates you. What I or we don't like is removing whole hillsides stripping every plant out, so there is none left to repopulate, there is an idiot that posts on here sometimes that does that, I'd love to see him face to face I'd smash his eyeballs with a hammer


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## SFLguy (Feb 22, 2016)

Did you know in advance that they were collected from the wild? Is the seller the type of person who'd rip out a whole hillside?


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## emydura (Feb 23, 2016)

Stone said:


> Parishii has thicker, more succulent leaves to withstand the long dry as an epiphyte. Dianthum leaves are standard. This is from my young plants and the big parishii I had once. It had very thick leaves. Maybe 5mm at the thickest part.



Mine are the total opposite. As PaphMadMan said I don't think you can make generalisations about leaves.


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## Hyun007 (Feb 23, 2016)

emydura said:


> Mine are the total opposite. As PaphMadMan said I don't think you can make generalisations about leaves.



I think the likely obvious different might be Dianthum leaves are more curvy, where else a Parishii is more straight up/straight pointed direction. This is my little observation from some pictures that i saw online but i could still be wrong.


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## Stone (Feb 23, 2016)

emydura said:


> Mine are the total opposite. As PaphMadMan said I don't think you can make generalisations about leaves.


I had another good look at my plants yesterday. Parishii has smoother more glossy leaves. Much thinker in cross section, more succulent, very smooth, no undulations at all. A clean even curve from tip to base.

Diabthum, less glossy, undulation on the leaf edge, much more flexible than parishii. Leathery rather than succulent. 

Like I said my plants are very young but I have 3 of each and they are easy to tell apart at the moment.


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## Happypaphy7 (Mar 2, 2016)

troy said:


> Just because it's from the wild doesn't mean wverybody hates you. What I or we don't like is removing whole hillsides stripping every plant out, so there is none left to repopulate, there is an idiot that posts on here sometimes that does that, I'd love to see him face to face I'd smash his eyeballs with a hammer



I know, it is off topic, but I agree with your sentiment.
I hate those people, but unfortunately, no laws can keep those senseless people from doing what they do.


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## Happypaphy7 (Mar 2, 2016)

PaphMadMan said:


> Since there was some question about which should have longer leaves I double checked what I paraphrased from Braem Paphiopedilum 2nd edition. No change here, just reiterating Braem.
> 
> parishii - leaves up to 40cm long and 6.5cm wide, two lobed at the tip
> 
> ...



Great point! 

I always thought somehow the flowers were the main features to distinguish them. Does the book mention anything about that??


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## mormodes (Mar 2, 2016)

A recent study of 5 DNA regions. See pg 82 and pg 111. 
http://bbktheses.da.ulcc.ac.uk/88/


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## naoki (Mar 3, 2016)

mormodes said:


> A recent study of 5 DNA regions. See pg 82 and pg 111.
> http://bbktheses.da.ulcc.ac.uk/88/



Nice find mormodes! It mentioned the mechanism of autonomous selfing (self-fertilization done without the help of any insects). It mentions that the pollen sac liquefy and pollen can reach to the stigma if no pollinators arrive in time. This is off-topic, but I have always wondered how Paphs can do self-fertilization by itself (I think Rick mentioned that his P. mastersianum does it).


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## mormodes (Mar 3, 2016)

I think the authors mention it (self fertilization as a scheme) in Chapter 5. But only in passing. I spent a lot of time googling terms when I read this paper.  Also the difference in fragrances. All in all pretty good article.


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