# Slow niveums



## Stone (Nov 1, 2011)

Recently bought a fask of line bred niveum and potted them into a bark/scoria mix. One month later, no new root initials so I decided they were
too dry and put them into sphag compots. one month later---no roots!
They're on bottom heat (25c) and all quite healthy.
It's now been 10 weeks and still waiting. Is this normal for niveum seedlings or do I need to have a word with them?


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## SlipperFan (Nov 1, 2011)

Two words: Grow up!

No roots at all???


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## Stone (Nov 1, 2011)

No need for the insult Dot .Yes no funtioning roots!!!!!!


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## likespaphs (Nov 1, 2011)

{she was talkin' to the plants!}


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## Stone (Nov 1, 2011)

Oh I see please forgive
The thing is that I've had sanderianums,fairrianums,bellatulums,micranthums
all put out new roots within a week of defask.


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## likespaphs (Nov 1, 2011)

i killed the only compot and only flask i've ever tried


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## paphioboy (Nov 2, 2011)

Relating to the other thread you started about pH, niveum is a species that really loves alkaline media. I have seen large clumps that didn't flower until the grower threw in a handful of limestone. Do you have limestone in the mix? Or just straight sphag? How big are they (leafspan)?


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## Stone (Nov 2, 2011)

Hi paphioboy.
No limestone just staight moss for now. they are still to small to worry about
specific amendments I think but I have a larger one doing well in bark/rock
mix and my water is slightly acid.


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## TyroneGenade (Nov 2, 2011)

Is this live or dead moss? Live moss stimulates root development very well. I don't think dead damp moss would be something niveum would like. It is too acid. Repot into crushed brick, dolomite or something similar but keep the humidity high. I put some moss with the rock of my Brachies to keep the humidity higher and they seem to like it. I put moss at the bottom of the pot and on top of the rock mix. I have only worked with NBS and BS plants so I can't speak for seedlings... But in nature these plants are lithophytes.


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## valenzino (Nov 2, 2011)

Stone said:


> Hi paphioboy.
> No limestone just staight moss for now. they are still to small to worry about
> specific amendments I think but I have a larger one doing well in bark/rock
> mix and my water is slightly acid.



Ph is very important for rooting seedlings.Also as you have acid water,is possible is poor on Ca Mg..You must add Calcium and Magnesium to feeding and put some limestone and charcoal to the mix to stabilize Ph.
Also plants usually start to root when they feel dry and nt wet,cause they go searching water,,,
Hope it helps


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## Marc (Nov 2, 2011)

Allthough I have no experience with niveum seedlings I can say that they do react to their culture.

I had a niveum that was growing in my standard paph mix that has spagnum but no calcium source and it was standing still for most of the year.

Only after repotting it in a calcium rich substrate it started new roots and the new growths started growing.

See this topic.

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21790&highlight=niveum

Reminds me to make some new shots of the plant and update the above topic.


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## Stone (Nov 2, 2011)

I'm Still not convinced as to the need of limestone in the p/mix.
Paphioboy said he saw large niveums that only flowered after limestone was added. The very fact that they were large plants in the first place shows to me they must have been healthy, unhappy plants don't get large especially 
slow growers like brachypetalum. As far as I know healthy plants don't need
extra calcium or change in ph to flower so it must have been something else?
Also Lance Birk says he has seen concolor growing in trees! Surely this shows
that they are getting their Calcium from organic sources not from the limestone.
I'm begining to think the most important thing for niveums is heat, light, heat,
air, heat, humidity, and more heat!


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## SlipperFan (Nov 2, 2011)

Stone said:


> Recently bought a fask of line bred niveum and potted them into a bark/scoria mix. One month later, no new root initials so I decided they were
> too dry and put them into sphag compots. one month later---no roots!
> They're on bottom heat (25c) and all quite healthy.
> It's now been 10 weeks and still waiting. Is this normal for niveum seedlings or do I need to have a word with them?





SlipperFan said:


> Two words: Grow up!
> 
> No roots at all???





Stone said:


> No need for the insult Dot .Yes no funtioning roots!!!!!!





likespaphs said:


> {she was talkin' to the plants!}



 I was trying to be funny, Stone. You asked if you needed to have a word with them. Sorry. I never try to be offensive or insulting.


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## Stone (Nov 2, 2011)

SlipperFan said:


> I was trying to be funny, Stone. You asked if you needed to have a word with them. Sorry. I never try to be offensive or insulting.



Yes Dot, I hadn't even remembered what I wrote.I feel so stupid, Just call me Otto!


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## Rick (Nov 2, 2011)

I recently got some thaianum and godefroyea (which grows sympatrically with niveum) seedlings (in fact they arrived in flask). Unfortunately they got real beat up in shipment and ended up losing about 1/2 of them in short notice.

The other 1/2 are doing pretty good. I'm using a bark mix amended about 30% with chopped sphagnum. There is also sand and a small amount of pH buffering "cichlid sand" (a CaribSea product) in the bark mix.

I've had lots of seedlings come roaring out of flask for a few months and then stop growing, and then trickle away over the following years.

So I applied all the same logic on K overdose to the feeding regime for the seedlings, and the surviving seedlings from these latest flasks are continuing to add new leaves and roots at a pretty good rate.

I should add that I add a small dose of kelp extract to my fertmix, which probably has a bunch of cool hormones in it to induce new leaf and root growth. 

So anyway I recommend very light feeding very restrictive in K and the use of kelp extract.


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## SlipperFan (Nov 2, 2011)

Stone said:


> Yes Dot, I hadn't even remembered what I wrote.I feel so stupid, Just call me Otto!


Don't feel stupid. We both made a little mistake -- all in the past now.


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## Rick (Nov 2, 2011)

Stone said:


> I'm Still not convinced as to the need of limestone in the p/mix.
> Paphioboy said he saw large niveums that only flowered after limestone was added. The very fact that they were large plants in the first place shows to me they must have been healthy, unhappy plants don't get large especially
> slow growers like brachypetalum. As far as I know healthy plants don't need
> extra calcium or change in ph to flower so it must have been something else?
> ...



What I've discovered recently is not that they need Xtra Ca or Mg, but they are very susceptible to K overdose. I have accumulated several articles that demonstrate that plants selectively and actively uptake K, and as K builds up in the plant tissues it locks out Ca and Mg. Eventually when K gets high enough (the plants can't stop!!) the blocked Ca/Mg blocks uptake of PO4.

Plants may appear to be P or Mg deficient (turning purple) when there is more than enough Ca/Mg/P in the fertilizer or potting mix, but the excess K in the plant tissues blocks the uptake of the other nutrients.

Compounding the plant tissue stress, organic potting mixes (chc, bark, sphag) all have a certain amount of ion exchange capacity, also with a preference to retain Na and K while giving up Ca Mg. So over time with each feeding event, the potting mix retains high and higher levels of K while Ca/Mg levels drop. Adding some form of easily dissolved Ca/Mg source to the mix can reduce the K buildup rate in the mix. 

Plants in general need good roots to uptake Ca, but can take up K and probably Mg through the leaves. If your plants have shot roots, Ca uptake will be very poor.

I have had some success turning "locked up plants" around by extra doses of epsom salts. (I think it helps purge the excess K in plant tissue). Once you get even root nubs, the plant will be able to uptake Ca more readily.

We were all amazed to see the insitu pics of niveum on Krabi growing in full sun, in tiny cracks on limestone cliffs, within reach of salt spray from the ocean waves.

It's obvious that these plants are not generally sensitive to salts, but they definitely come from an environment that is very rich in Ca/Mg and impoverished in K. (Sea water has much more Mg than either Ca or K. Na seems to have little bearing in this system).

This would apply to just about any calcareous species as K is extremely low in limestone.


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## Rick (Nov 2, 2011)

Stone said:


> Also Lance Birk says he has seen concolor growing in trees! Surely this shows
> that they are getting their Calcium from organic sources not from the limestone.



If you look at leaf tissue concentrations of almost all green plants (that haven't been exposed to artificial fertilizers) you would find a similar ratio of N p k Ca Mg regardless of the environment they grow in naturally. Also in order of tissue concentration you would generally find N>Ca>K>/=Mg>P as the concentration priority. In some ecosystems you would also find higher levels of tissue silicates than K.

So depending on whether you are epiphytic on a tree or on a limestone cliff, you are generally cycling and recycling some or most of your nutrients from an "organic" source, and at much higher concentrations than the solid substrates your roots are attached too.


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## Stone (Nov 2, 2011)

Rick said:


> I recently got some thaianum and godefroyea (which grows sympatrically with niveum) seedlings (in fact they arrived in flask). Unfortunately they got real beat up in shipment and ended up losing about 1/2 of them in short notice.
> 
> The other 1/2 are doing pretty good. I'm using a bark mix amended about 30% with chopped sphagnum. There is also sand and a small amount of pH buffering "cichlid sand" (a CaribSea product) in the bark mix.
> 
> ...



I will definately try to lower K on my established plants but of course we have to wait a full growing season to be able to properly judge results.
Kelp is a fantastic product. I've had miraculous recovery of some non orchid plants a while back. Don't forget though that kelp is also very high in K.
At least the Tasmanian Bull-Kelp we get down here.
I wouldn't use it more than once a month or less if I was trying to reduce K


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## paphioboy (Nov 2, 2011)

Stone said:


> I'm Still not convinced as to the need of limestone in the p/mix.
> Paphioboy said he saw large niveums that only flowered after limestone was added. The very fact that they were large plants in the first place shows to me they must have been healthy, unhappy plants don't get large especially
> slow growers like brachypetalum. As far as I know healthy plants don't need
> extra calcium or change in ph to flower so it must have been something else?
> ...



This is the plant I was talking about (belongs to my friend):






If I'm not mistaken, the pot diameter is 10 inches (25cm). The original media was charcoal and fern root. It didn't flower despite being such a huge clump. only when I advised him to add limestone to the mix did he obtain several spikes..


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## Stone (Nov 3, 2011)

Whatever the reason, all I can say is that I hope my plant will look like that some day! Wonderful specimen:drool:


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## Stone (Nov 3, 2011)

Rick, do you use an ec meter?
I run my fert. solutions at .3 mS/cm or 320 TDS (in ppm) for paphs but I think this might be to low.


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## Rick (Nov 3, 2011)

Stone said:


> Rick, do you use an ec meter?
> I run my fert. solutions at .3 mS/cm or 320 TDS (in ppm) for paphs but I think this might be to low.



Not for orchid fertilizing.

I conduct aquatic toxicity tests and use it all the time for that purpose.

I really don't like to use TDS as a surogate for nitrogen or any other nutrient in complex mixtures. Especially if the fertilizer is mixed into a tap or well water (with its own inherent TDS).

200 useimens is already about average for Nashville tap water so that means that if the final eC of the solution is 300 then I have 100eC from fertilizer?

I prefer to keep track of mass additons of a specific target compound for fert additon.

Actually since many successful growers NEVER fertilize and one of the best Brachy collections I've seen only fertilizes for a portion of spring and summer I don't think you can ever be too low when it comes to fertilizing (just too high).


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## valenzino (Nov 3, 2011)

Stone;321278... said:


> I'm Still not convinced as to the need of limestone in the p/mix.......
> .... especially slow growers like brachypetalum. As far as I know healthy plants don't need
> extra calcium or change in ph to flower so it must have been something else?



The important is to give the right ammount of Mg,Ca and as cleaverly sais Rick,lower K.
So you can add limestone to the mix or give with fertilizer.This depends also from your source of water...

...brachypetalums are not slow grower,in reality are in the fastest growers.In favourable conditions leucochilum can flower in16-18 months out of flask...Seen also niveum flower in 18 months in Thailand and Malaysia.So as your plants will find the right conditions must grow fast,if they have high temperatures(ideal 20-24C° night 28-30C° day).But also too high temperatures can really stress the small seedlings.I will keep them for the first 6 month in a stable environment(lower ligh 20C°N 26C°D).


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## NYEric (Nov 3, 2011)

paphioboy said:


> .



I opened this page and thought this was the pot of slow niveums and almost passed out!


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## Stone (Nov 3, 2011)

valenzino said:


> The important is to give the right ammount of Mg,Ca and as cleaverly sais Rick,lower K.
> So you can add limestone to the mix or give with fertilizer.This depends also from your source of water...
> 
> ...brachypetalums are not slow grower,in reality are in the fastest growers.In favourable conditions leucochilum can flower in16-18 months out of flask...Seen also niveum flower in 18 months in Thailand and Malaysia.So as your plants will find the right conditions must grow fast,if they have high temperatures(ideal 20-24C° night 28-30C° day).But also too high temperatures can really stress the small seedlings.I will keep them for the first 6 month in a stable environment(lower ligh 20C°N 26C°D).



I have the following seedling all sitting in a warm tank with bottom heat 25c 

sanderianum
fairrianum
bellatulum
concolr
niveum
spicerianum
hainanese 
micranthum
malipoense
armeniacum
supurbiens
hangianum
esquirolei
delenatii
The brachys are by far the slowest growers for me.


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## Stone (Nov 3, 2011)

niveums are finally putting out new roots:clap:
Live sphag is the best!


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## paphioboy (Nov 3, 2011)

Stone said:


> niveums are finally putting out new roots:clap:
> Live sphag is the best!



Check Hardy's previous thread on thaianum seedings and live sphag. the seedlings did well for a while and then went downhill... Use the search function to find it..


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## Stone (Nov 3, 2011)

Oh they'are definately going back into regular mix as soon as their roots 
are 5mm long! I hate sphag as a growing medium but unsurpassed as a root 
starter.


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## valenzino (Nov 4, 2011)

Stone said:


> Oh they'are definately going back into regular mix as soon as their roots
> are 5mm long! I hate sphag as a growing medium but unsurpassed as a root
> starter.



At this point I suggest you can do an experiment.Put mostly all seedlings in your regular mix/way,but some in limestone rich media and see if make difference for you or not.
Good luck!


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## Stone (Nov 5, 2011)

valenzino said:


> At this point I suggest you can do an experiment.Put mostly all seedlings in your regular mix/way,but some in limestone rich media and see if make difference for you or not.
> Good luck!



Yes I will try that.


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