# KelpMax and flower induction



## terryros (Sep 1, 2016)

I am a regular user of KelpMax. The information that Ray has presented indicates that auxins predominate in the product, but many other substances are also present. This seems to indicate that KelpMax should be particularly beneficial for increased root development in orchids. In my indoor growing environment, I control the day length and the temperature and I will soon be entering my short day period, followed about a month later by a six week cooler day and night period. Following this, I will be gradually increasing day length and temperature to facilitate spike development.

I am uncertain whether applying the usual 15 mL/gallon concentration of KelpMax right now would be beneficial or inhibitory to flower spike induction? Any evidence, experience, or hypothetical thoughts?


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## gonewild (Sep 1, 2016)

What kind of orchids are you talking about?

Yes the auxins will have a effect depending on which ones it contains.


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## Ray (Sep 1, 2016)

Well, I can guarantee the manufacturer isn't about to release that info.

In my experience, I've seen non flowering inhibition, but I have seen taller flower spikes and larger flowers.


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## terryros (Sep 1, 2016)

I have a mixed collection of Paphs, Phrags, Phals, Catts, and Miltoniopsis. Not expecting that they all react the same.

Ray, I am not quite sure what you mean by "non-flowering inhibition". I think I interpret that you have had plants that were resistant to flowering decide to flower with KelpMax?


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## gonewild (Sep 1, 2016)

If they wont reveal the type of auxins then there is no way to predict the effect on flowering. 
They claim it promotes roots do they also claim it promotes flower induction?
Too bad they wont reveal the ingredients of the natural product.

At warm temperatures a particular auxin may induce roots and at cool temperature it may induce flowers or visa versa. Then if it's combined with another auxin the effects may be completely different.


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## terryros (Sep 1, 2016)

Ray has a pretty detailed list of all of the ingredients and in terms of concentration by mg/mL, the auxin content is much greater than the other substances. I think that Ray has used KelpMax year round and I was just hoping to confirm this from him and others. I am not seeking a "blossom booster", I just didn't want to work against the vernalization process.


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## Stone (Sep 1, 2016)

I don't think you will see much flower inhibition as long as you keep the dose lower rather than higher and not too often.


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## terryros (Sep 1, 2016)

At Ray's suggestion, I am using 15 mL per gallon RO water and I am only using it once per month because I only water/feed once per 7-12 days depending on the top of orchid. I am going to continue through this fall and just see what happens.


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## naoki (Sep 2, 2016)

Ray and Lance, there are a couple papers which analyzed phytohormones in the kelp used for Kelpak (Ecklonia maxima) or Kelpak (=MaxiCrop) and other related products. This one analyzes the raw kelp, so it could be slightly different from Kelpak.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...trates_when_stored_at_an_elevated_temperature

But what do you mean by different types of auxins? I think that it is not well known how different types of natural auxins play different roles. For the cytokinins and gibberellins, there are many different types and some are bioactive, and others are the metabolic intermediates (so they don't do much in terms of hormones). This one has some analysis about the gibberellins in Kelpak:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ial_seaweed_extract_made_from_Ecklonia_maxima

Gibberellins are the only known possible flower inducers in Paphs so far. Other hormones could indirectly influence flowering, but I haven't investigated that front at all.

Terry, I have also applied KelpMax (and now MaxiCrop) year around since I also grow indoor. It is difficult to tell if it has any influence on flowering. The plants which are happy seem to flower. There are some healthy plants which don't flower, but that's probably more to do with some other missing cues of flower induction (temp, light etc).


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## terryros (Sep 2, 2016)

Thanks, Naoki. My look at what is published also showed that there are so many substances in different mixes that it was difficult to know. That is why I wasn't looking for any stimulation of spiking, but just a reason why spiking might be inhibited.

It looks like there is no reason to halt during the short day and vernalization period. However, my watering/feeding frequency will lengthen as I also dry things out a bit so that will probably result a little decreased frequency of the kelp for about three months.


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## gonewild (Sep 2, 2016)

naoki said:


> But what do you mean by different types of auxins? I don't think that it is not well known how different types of natural auxins plays different roles



You don't think or you do think? I would agree with not well known. For that reason it would be good to know exactly what the kelp contains.



> For the cytokinins and gibberellins, there are many different types and some are bioactive, and others are the metabolic intermediates (so they don't do much in terms of hormones).



Auxin levels (ratio to other hormones) will alter the production of cytokinins. Since cytokinin levels do affect flowering an increase in auxin will most likely also have an effect on flowering. Excess auxin inhibits cytokinin production.

Applying kelp with high auxin levels may delay flowering while it increases root growth. But once the roots start to grow cytokinin production will increase and then flowering may also be increased even though it was time delayed. But what happens to the cytokinin production if high auxin containing kelp is applied repeatedly?

It seems like using kelp encourages root growth and may inhibit flowering. So maybe if the kelp (auxin) application is stopped the extra roots it caused to grow will send extra cytokinins up to cause flower induction. While the continued use of kelp may inhibit flower induction.

If temperature is lowered with intent to induce flowering wouldn't it be better to lower the auxin level and raise the ctyokinin or giberillin levels?

Too many big words. Maybe just stop applying kelp when the temperature is lowered to encourage flower formation.


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## Ray (Sep 2, 2016)

First let me say that to orchid growers, it appears to be the root-growth stimulation that is the primary draw. I would speculate, however, that 99.999+% of the products' sales go to growers of food crops, which suggests a benefit to flowering.

Lance, to answer your "repeated applications" question, I believe it depends on both frequency and concentration. After some experimentation, I found that about 1:250 is effective, but not extreme, and doing so no more that once a month appears to increase the overall average metabolic rate without negative effects.

When you "spike" the process with the auxins, the time for the reaction to reach a peak and fade back to the normal baseline can be a short as about a week, or as long as two. Add to that the repeated spike of the cytokinin process, but with a built-in "lag time", and it seems that the overall process can take from two- to three weeks. I suppose it might be OK to repeat the treatment at that point, but doing so monthly seems safer, and easier to remember.

Yes, I have been using the product year round for about 5 years now, but a caveat here is that I grow no plants that need rest periods. If I did, I would only start applying it after the plants had broken dormancy.


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## terryros (Sep 2, 2016)

It makes sense that this could be orchid genera specific. For example, my Cattleyas that need to rest and be relatively dry until they bloom, like C.trianaei, might not be good choice for KelpMax during the rest period. I think I will be careful about this with my trial during this Fall. I would probably not worry about Phrags at all and maybe not with Phals and Miltoniopsis.

Uncertainty, but that is true for most things we do!


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## naoki (Sep 2, 2016)

gonewild said:


> You don't think or you do think? I would agree with not well known. For that reason it would be good to know exactly what the kelp contains.



Oops, nice catch, corrected. I meant that
I think that it is not well known how different types of natural auxins play different roles.

For the rest of your logic, I don't know enough, Lance. Sorry. People are familiar with the fact that auxins are associated with lateral roots initiation, but it has lots of other important roles in plant physiology. e.g., the shape of flowers (or leaf pattern) is influenced by auxin gradient near the meristem (this is related to something called phyllotaxis, link to wikipedia). Or it is important in development of fruits. For these other examples, I'm not sure if sprayed auxins have any effects or not. This multiple functionality of plant hormones is one difference between animal and plant hormones. I think that 1 animal hormone is related to 1 set of function in general. But the punch line is that it is probably pretty complicated (especially since Kelp contains other hormones).


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## gonewild (Sep 2, 2016)

naoki said:


> For these other examples, I'm not sure if sprayed auxins have any effects or not.



Sprayed on auxins definitely have an effect.


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## gonewild (Sep 2, 2016)

naoki said:


> For the rest of your logic, I don't know enough, Lance. Sorry.



Neither do I. :wink: But I keep trying to learn more about it.
I have a pdf with tons of info, 400 pages. I've not read it all or even seen every page but every time I do read a part a little bit more makes sense. I'm not sure where I found the document to link to so I uploaded it to my server to share it here.

The Effects of Benzyladenine on Ornamental Crops.

Please read it so you can explain it! I think it contains the answer about the effect of kelp on plant growth.


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## naoki (Sep 3, 2016)

gonewild said:


> Sprayed on auxins definitely have an effect.



Well, I was talking about how the internal auxin gradient could influence the shape of flowers, and I wasn't sure how external auxins influence the pattern. This is a bit tricky to explain, and probably my explanation doesn't help. Sorry if it is the case, and it can be safely ignored. 

Flowers are basically modified leaves. There are 4 layers (whorls) in a flower (sepals, petals, filament/anther, style/ovary). In orchids 3rd and 4th layers are fused. There is an apical meristem of undifferentiated cells, which will produce the different parts of flowers, and it will go through cell divisions. Near the apical meristem, you'll see the sepal and petal primordia at the early stage of flower development. The spatial distribution of these primordia can influence the shape of final flowers. Apical meristem produces auxins, and the auxins get dispersed actively around the meristem. This creates certain micro-"pattern" in auxin concentration gradients. This micro gradient is used as the location signal to tell which cells start to develop as sepal/petal primordia.

So the internal gradient of auxins are important to determine the shape. So what I said was that I'm not sure how sprayed auxins will influence this internal gradient. There are some experiments where you do micro injection of auxins to certain cells near the meristem. But spraying to the entire plant is different. Also, auxin transportation proteins are somewhat known. Auxins generally get transported away from the meristem. In other words, auxins absorbed in leaves or something is less likely to go up to the meristems.

Thanks for the link to BA study, Lance! It looks like an interesting read. I tried coconut water spray a couple years ago, but I've never tried chemical BAP spray. I didn't see anything with coconut water, but I should read about this thesis and learn more about it whenever I get some time (not for a while).


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