# Paph. sanderanium question



## NYEric (Jan 11, 2007)

I'm curious as to why it's so hard to find full grown sanderanium around [which is why plants command such a high price]. I have seen many large-sized sanderanium hybrids and have one at home so obviously it was available for breeding. Even (Orchid Fever) doesn't explain this well. What's the deal?


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## littlefrog (Jan 11, 2007)

I don't know... One thing (for me at least) is that the seedlings don't establish well out of flask, and seem to spend several years just sort of sitting there before they actually grow. I've not bloomed one yet, but I have some that are at least 8 years old, and I think this might be typical. I think this leads to increased mortality (more time to kill them). Fewer plants make it to blooming size = more bucks for the ones that do and not as many offered.

I keep hoping that the newer sanderianums (like Orchid Inn's latest crosses) will be easier growers. So far I have four seedlings remaining out of my flask, and they seem to be just sitting there, so perhaps I got a bad roll of the dice.


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## Heather (Jan 11, 2007)

I agree with Rob's take on this. I've had a couple that just sat there and languished and finally croaked. Both were older crosses (such as Jungle Monarch x Jungle Warrior). I have two newer crosses, on of which is Bruno Manser x Penanko, and it is growing almost rapidly compared to the others. I also have a seedling of sanderianum x gigantifolium that is downright quick! Luckily for me I guess, I don't really adore sanderianum, actually I prefer it's hybrids. 

I think they are just interminably slow growing plants, a little finicky, and consequently, many simply don't make it to blooming size.


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## smartie2000 (Jan 11, 2007)

zephyrus orchids will sell a division of Sanderianum 'Rapunzel' AM/AOS crowned World's Largest Orchid Flower by the Guinness Book of World Records for $19999CAD. It had 5 flowers with 29 feet of petals at the time of the record, but he claims it is blooming even larger now. A bit costly....


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## smartie2000 (Jan 11, 2007)

Heather said:


> I don't really adore sanderianum, actually I prefer it's hybrids.
> 
> I think they are just interminably slow growing plants, a little finicky, and consequently, many simply don't make it to blooming size.



I agree its hybrids are much prettier. My MK is grow sooooooooooo slow!


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## Heather (Jan 11, 2007)

29 feet? do you mean inches...? That'd be one unruly Paph!


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## Kyle (Jan 11, 2007)

I think its for the whole spike. Each petal is ~3 feet X 10 petals = about 29 feet.

Kyle


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## Heather (Jan 11, 2007)

Ooh, I see. Huh. Interesting way of measuring!


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## Jon in SW Ohio (Jan 11, 2007)

Sam at Orchid Inn had two in spike/blooming sanderianums at a show I was at a couple years ago for sale. I think most vendors don't list them for sale because most people don't want to spend that much on one plant when you can buy a seedling for a fraction of the cost.

If you had the cash in hand and were serious about buying one, I guarantee you could find at least a few vendors with one to sell you.

Jon


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## Wendy (Jan 11, 2007)

Mmmmm...sanderianum....my favourite.:drool: I have two seedlings right (10-12" LS) now and while they are both slow growers they do definitely show improvement month by month. I have another seedling on order that is the same cross as Heather's. Hopefully one day i will actually see them bloom.

Paphman 910 grows some nice seedlings as well. (One of mine is from him)


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## wilbeck (Jan 11, 2007)

I have a seedling with the longest leaf about 15cm. It is definitely growing because the newest leaf has been getting larger. I bought it at Windy Hill Gardens about two months ago. It appears a bit pallid, but then it did when I bought it. Marilyn said it would be five years or more to blooming.


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## kentuckiense (Jan 11, 2007)

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan sanderianum is a pain. My seedling was growing awesomely in the summer heat but then slowly ground to a halt as it got colder. Basically the exact opposite of my besseae.


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## Leo Schordje (Jan 11, 2007)

NY Eric, 
There are several reasons why there are few or no blooming size sanderianums available. One is that the seed is VERY slow to germinate. I was looking at mother flasks the other day, some mothers were just beginning to germinate after 3 years. So this is a real setback if you are in a hurry. 

Second, they grow a but slower than a rothschildianum, about the same speed as a Paph stonei. This means that under ideal conditions (Hawaii) you are looking at 5 or 6 years to blooming, under the conditions mere mortals can provide, you are looking at 10 to 12 years from flask to first bloom. They are simply slow growers. There are a few sanderianums in 4 inch and 6 inch pots coming out of Hawaii wholesalers, but only a few.

Blooming plants are expensive because if a greenhouse has to charge $10 per year just to cover a 4 inch pot's cost of heat and watering, then a 10 year old plant has a minimum break even cost $100 without including aquisition cost, repotting cost, or even a little profit for beer money. (see Jon, one CAN work beer into any plant discussion) 

I have a NBS sanderianum available, go to my vendor area for details.


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## Rick (Jan 11, 2007)

I think there may be more blooming size plants out there than most of us are aware of, and they are just not for sale. I know of some in TN that have been blooming for several years, and may not being bredas far as I know.

I may be screwed up on this, but it seems that just 5 years ago there was still alot of concern about seedlings available from legally imported plants, and allot of adult stock was being stashed to avoid confiscation.

They were not common or easily accesable so very few made it out of Borneo after "rediscovery" in the eighties or nineties, and I think allot of plants took years to adapt to greenhouse conditions.

Subsequently, the widerspread market is just now seeing 1st generation seedlings in many cases, and the oldest of them from 5 or so years ago are just getting big enough to bloom.


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## NYEric (Jan 12, 2007)

Is there a chance that blooming sized plants are more common in the region where the originally harvested plants were?


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## Rick Barry (Jan 12, 2007)

Some growers claim that Paphiopedilum sanderianum isn't that difficult to grow, but the relative dearth of cultivated plants at shows as well as private collections seems to indicate otherwise. I have seen many offerings of seedlings but I rarely see flowering plants. Some of the best known cultivars languish even now in the hands of some of the most respected of Paph growers.
Especially for the more difficult orchid species, plants are best grown under conditions approximating those the plants would normally encounter in the wild. The conditions I refer to are all-inclusive and include such factors as temperature, humidity and position (with respect to the sun as well as to air flow), and the composition of the substrate as well. Some species are more tolerant of variability of conditions than others, and species of very limited distribution both geographically and climatically can be very intolerant to changes. 
It is my understanding that P. sanderianum can be very finicky in some respects. First blooming seedlings often die shortly after flowering. I have been told that the first spike should be removed shortly after the last flower has opened, to conserve energy for new growth. 
I won't specify cultural requirements here, as any good book on Paphs should provide all the information needed for the cultivation of sanderianum. As any comprehensive reference will indicate, its native climate is relatively stable throughout the year, varying mostly in rainfall totals (ranging from moderate in 'dry' months to monsoonal in the 'wet' season) and prevailing wind direction. Temperatures remain the same throughout the year, with average highs of around 83 degrees F and lows around 70 degrees, indicating a fairly tight diurnal range. While growers can usually meet the watering requirements, the temperature requirements can be expensive to maintain. Keeping any greenhouse (or even a home) in a northern climate within the proper range can require a considerable amount of energy for heating as well as cooling.
As is true for many species orchids, Paph sanderianum can also be intolerant of root disruption, and repotting should be minimized in frequency. For the same reason don't divide your plant unless it falls apart of it's own volition, which in itself may be a really bad sign in a young (less than 15-20 years) plant. Similarly, be very careful in purchasing divisions of sanderianum, being aware that you are acquiring a plant that may well be recovering from a relatively massive trauma. 
Assume that this plant reqires consistency above all else. Consistancy can be maintained by choosing its proper location in the growing area and leaving it there permanently. Resist the urge to move or rotate the plant to achieve better or faster growth. If you have to move the plant for any reason, mark its orientation on the shelf so you can replace it in the same position. 
Stability. That's the key, and it's not so easy to achieve.


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## NYEric (Jan 12, 2007)

Rick, et al. First, this was merely an academic exercise. I don't think I will soon purchase a Paph sanderanium because I'm not that good a grower of Paphs and I think that they are a resource that shouldn't be toyed with. Second, you mention the composition of the substrate, I've often wondered about the value that having the native soil a species developed from has. One would think that there are minerals, plant materials, and even micro-organisms in the native soil that the species have evolved with that should be used to grow the plants in. I wish I could get native soil to put w/ my plants to see if this would be a factor. Your thoughts?


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## smartie2000 (Jan 12, 2007)

Great info! oops I unpotted my paph MK like twice to make sure it was doing ok since it was doing nothing and I moved it from window to fluorescent lights. It took a year to grow half a leaf finally.... Its a mature since growth, mostly likely a division, but I don't see where the plant was disconnected, maybe its not a division?...another eBay plant where the actual plant sent was not pictured


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## Rick (Jan 12, 2007)

NYEric said:


> Rick, et al. First, this was merely an academic exercise. I don't think I will soon purchase a Paph sanderanium because I'm not that good a grower of Paphs and I think that they are a resource that shouldn't be toyed with. Second, you mention the composition of the substrate, I've often wondered about the value that having the native soil a species developed from has. One would think that there are minerals, plant materials, and even micro-organisms in the native soil that the species have evolved with that should be used to grow the plants in. I wish I could get native soil to put w/ my plants to see if this would be a factor. Your thoughts?



Some of Rick Barry's points really wrang a bell for me, especially about consistancy to the point of keeping them in the same place. I have purchased a total of 5 sanderianum seedlings since 2001 and have lost 2. The oldest is now >14" LS and is growing at a fairly good rate compared to other multis in my collection.
I experimented a fair amount with the first two (one is dead, the other is the big one doing well) before I got a combination of culture parameters and a special spot that they seem to be happy with. 2 of the three recently purchased seedlings seem to be responding to this total package, and growing at a very good rate.

I think the issue of native soil is much more important to adult imports than for captive raised seedlings, but only for what we can learn about what they like in the wild. Many paphs live in "pseudo-soils" such as humus accumulations that break down and otherwise change very quickly, so after recieving a portion of it, I suspect it will not be retained in a condition favourable for growing very long. We might get a good dose of the appropriate microorganisms, but I doubt if we could maintian a reasonable approximation of the micro eco environment for very long. So ultimately we need to come up with surogates that work with the environment that we can provide for these plants. It doesn't have to be trial by error, which is why I often talk about the environment (chemical and all) produced by a certain potting mix, and trying to relate it back to the natural geology and soil type the wild plants are found in.

Also from some of the pictures and descriptions I've come across, sanderianum may be attached directly to limestone rock with virtually no "soil" accumulation around the plant at all. So in the cases of lithophytic plants its probably not going to happen that we can get chunks of rock shipped to us from the native habitat.

As a special note on sanderianum. I will agree that they have the finest and most delicate brittle roots of any paph seedling I've come across, and frequent repotting is a risky business. My larger plant has pretty normal roots for multis, but I don't think I started to see the bigger roots till it cleared 10-12".


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## NYEric (Jan 12, 2007)

I wonder if it's legal to send soils across borders, and if it is would there be a market for them?


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## NYEric (Jan 12, 2007)

Non-sterilized soils that is.


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## gonewild (Jan 12, 2007)

NYEric said:


> Non-sterilized soils that is.


The USDA prohibits importation of soil.


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## NYEric (Jan 13, 2007)

Of course.


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## Tony (Jan 18, 2007)

My sanderianum seedling is my fastest growing multi. I grow it in fine-grade aliflor with a generous helping of oyster shell mixed in, and also top-dress with oyster shell every month or so. I fertilize weekly with Dyna-gro 7-8-6 and Superthrive.


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## Rick Barry (Jan 18, 2007)

Eric,

Soil, in the case of sanderianum, is a limestone cliff face with bits of humus and leaf litter. Difficult enough to duplicate, but impossible to import.

Rick


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## NYEric (Jan 19, 2007)

Rick Barry said:


> Eric,
> 
> Soil, in the case of sanderianum, is a limestone cliff face with bits of humus and leaf litter. Difficult enough to duplicate, but impossible to import.
> 
> Rick


Then why can't you make the same humus and leaf litter from domestic samples of plants that the native sanderanium grow in. If you use limestone in the media then the only differences would be the water and any microorganisms. Water quality varies greatly between municipalities and even city blocks in the U.S. Did anyone do a chemical analysis of the water where [?] sanderainum comes from?


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## kentuckiense (Jan 19, 2007)

NYEric said:


> Then why can't you make the same humus and leaf litter from domestic samples of plants that the native sanderanium grow in. If you use limestone in the media then the only differences would be the water and any microorganisms. Water quality varies greatly between municipalities and even city blocks in the U.S. Did anyone do a chemical analysis of the water where [?] sanderainum comes from?


Limestone can vary from place to place and domestic samples of said plants are probably pretty hard to track down.


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## NYEric (Jan 19, 2007)

Next time in that neighborhood I'll scoop up a baggie full of soil and humus and pack it back home!


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## Rick (Jan 20, 2007)

kentuckiense said:


> Limestone can vary from place to place and domestic samples of said plants are probably pretty hard to track down.



Not that long ago Averyanov wrote an article for Orchids magazine that indicated that P emersonii and P hangianum were ecologically separated on the basis of the type of limestone that they are found on.

But I think potting mixes are overemphasized with regard to culturing slippers. Once out of the wild we just have to come up with a good surogate.

I think that the air environment is more important to sanderianum than the substrate it attaches to once its in the greenhouse. That's not to say that potting mix is irrelavent, but I think its more the fine tuning after more significant parts of the program.


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## Rick (Jan 20, 2007)

NYEric said:


> Then why can't you make the same humus and leaf litter from domestic samples of plants that the native sanderanium grow in. If you use limestone in the media then the only differences would be the water and any microorganisms. Water quality varies greatly between municipalities and even city blocks in the U.S. Did anyone do a chemical analysis of the water where [?] sanderainum comes from?



When you refer to the water where sanderianum comes from I guess you are talking about the rain water dripping off the rocks and percholating through the moss and humus near the plants.

Actually that has been done to a limited extent (ususally only pH and conductivity..TDS.. is measured in the field). One can also make inferences from looking at what happens to rain water as it driblles over limestone in this country too. The results are pretty variable depending on the source of limestone and the duration and magnitude of watering. But in generally you are looking at pH's from mid 6's to mid 7's with fairly noticilble conductivity (maybe around 150 or more) and hardess (probably less than 80 mg/L).


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## silence882 (Jan 20, 2007)

I've found two articles that give good descriptions of the habitat of Paph. sanderianum:

Fowlie, J.A. "Malaya Revisited. XXXIV: Paphiopedilum Sanderianum on Limestone and Dolomite Pinnacles of Gunong Mulu National Park, Sarawak." Orchid Digest 51, no. 4 (Oct/Dec 1987): 182-86.

"This species enjoys at least two separate and distinctive habitats, both on limestone and dolomite within the boundaries of Gunong Mulu National Park. The first habitat is atop limestone cliffs over rivers in bright positions on the limestone fifty feet above the river. In such situations the river had cut down through stone and formed deep chasms with unclimbable ninety-degree rock walls on either side of the river. The plants are loosely rooted on the stone, the flower scapes of fifteen inches arching out over the abyss and bearing two or three flowers with their three-foot-long petals dangling down in the gorge. In this location they are accompanied by Paphiopedilum lowii which grows similarly on the base of trees and flowers the end of March. The latter has a narrower, longer and darker leaf and favors trees or the base of tree trunks hanging out over the gorges. Elevations of some 300 to 1,500 feet above sea level and daytime spring temperatures of 78 degrees Fahrenheit to 83 degrees Fahrenheit maximum with good air movement have been reported at midday in March. Paphiopedilum sanderianum is in loose bud for a first or second week of April, maixmum flowering season in this location. But only a small percentage flowers per year of the colonies."
"The second habitat is atop limestone buttresses in the park between 300 and 1,500 feet above sea level. Here, it grows.... protected by the stone from the sweep of fires during periodic droughts every ten years or so. The limestone has eroded irregularly, leaving steep-sided ridges and hills exposed to the full fury of the winter monsoon from the north-northeast in November, December, January, and subsiding in February. After a brief drier interlude in March and April, convectional storms will come off the South China Sea almost every afternoon, and continue in May and June with a second slightly dry period at the end of July through September. Since Gunong Mulu formations are the second highest in Borneo (Gunong Mulu rises to 7,830 feet, or 2,376 meters), they effectively cause moisture-laden air masses moving from off the South China Sea to have to rise abruptly, and in so doing, cool them reapidly, which looses tremendous quantities of rainfall in districts west and north of Gunong Api and Gunong Mulu. Over two hundred inches per year is not uncommon here. This is why the vestigial species is confined here."
"Moss grows lithophytically over the surface of the limestone pinnacles, and sinlight striking it causes blue-green algae within to manufacture nitrogenous solutions which feed the roots of the ladyslipper with the next condensation period. This may either be rainfall or a mist-like condensation which crowns the hills in the evenings or after rains, or drips off the leaves of the trees."

Fischer, J. "Borneo Calls, Exploring for Orchids in Their Native Habitats Sheds New Light on Their Cultural Needs." Orchids 69, no. 1 (Jan 2000).


grows on limestone outcrops, generally east-facing
roots spread out on the rock and cling to the moist outer layer, sometimes exposed to the air and sometimes surrounded by moss
rarely found growing on the sides of trees along with P. lowii
light 700-1000 fc duing most of the day, can spike to 4000 at times
rainfall pH 6.0-6.4
blooms mid-april to mid-june
soil: pH 7.3-7.5, nitrogen 50ppm, calcium 142ppm, magnesium 26ppm, potassium 4ppm, phosphorous virtually 0

--Stephen


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## Rick (Jan 20, 2007)

Very nice info Stephen.

Dennis D'Alesandro reports lower pH (about 6.5), but that could be after a big rain flush.

The calcium and magnesium values calculate to a hardness of over 450 ppm as CaCO3!!

Thats very crusty pore water, but should be very low in sodium too.


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## NYEric (Jan 20, 2007)

That's the secret!


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## johnndc (Jan 21, 2007)

Interesting, the low light levels - OrchidWeb says on their web site as well that sanderianum's do well in phal level lighting - I thought that sounded kind of low, but the fc levels sure sound low in that description above.


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## Rick (Jan 21, 2007)

johnndc said:


> Interesting, the low light levels - OrchidWeb says on their web site as well that sanderianum's do well in phal level lighting - I thought that sounded kind of low, but the fc levels sure sound low in that description above.



I've tried more exposed places in my GH too, expecting them to enjoy light levesl that most multis enjoy, but the place were they do best for me is low and shaded in the gh in direct access to the highest and most humid air flow.


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## Heather (Jan 27, 2007)

These guys seem to have the growing of this species down pat. 
Scroll down to the bottom for some looongggg petals.  

http://x4.net.vnu.edu.tw/~tbgweb/cgi-bin/topic.cgi?forum=62&topic=2479&show=0

Note the interesting way he has "caged" the leaves upright. Space saving technique, perhaps?


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## smartie2000 (Jan 27, 2007)

I would think the caging is to keep the leaves from touching the petals cuz they stop growing after they touch something right?
Someone translate the Chinese...I'm an illiterate chinese


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## IdahoOrchid (Feb 11, 2007)

Check out this article series. There are three total but only the first two have been preserved.

http://www.nascentorchids.com/Library/sandchron/Intro.html

A fourth one is planned in the next while, according to the author.


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## Heather (Feb 11, 2007)

I think Tom (Elpaninaro) showed up again over at SOF recently, someone should try to get him over here, I don't have his email though. These are several years old but full of useful information.


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## paphioland (Feb 12, 2007)

Supposedly very hard to get seed.


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## IdahoOrchid (Feb 12, 2007)

paphioland said:


> Supposedly very hard to get seed.



Are you saying this is one reason for the expense of sand. seedlings?


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## NYEric (Feb 14, 2007)

But, again, why are there so many BS hybrids running around w/ sanderanium in them!?!?


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## Jason Fischer (Feb 14, 2007)

sanderianum? Hard to grow? Nah, piece of cake, this thing is a weed.


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## NYEric (Feb 15, 2007)

How long has that been growing and how long ore the leaves?


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## Shadow (Feb 16, 2007)

So does this one cost as a weed too? I'm the first one in a queue ! oke:


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## NYEric (Feb 16, 2007)

I think that instead of dealing w/ a difficult species plant I will get one to the more prolific hybrids.


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