# Phragmipedium kovachii



## Phragmatic (Oct 29, 2011)

Here is photos of two of my Phragmipedium kovachii. Both are self of the clone 'tupac Amaru' from Peruflora.

The whole plant for Eric! The second kovachii to bloom




38cm leafspan and a 18cm tall flowering stem 

A close-up of the same flower the 2nd day it opened



flower size 12.5cm wide X 10cm the day the photo was taken.

the same flower, a week old (overexposed like others in this thread, i know, i need a new camera.. sorry Dot!!)



The size is almost the same as the first kovachii.

the first kovachii to bloom, a week old, grown in warmer conditions



flower size 15.25cm wide X 12.25cm


----------



## JeanLux (Oct 29, 2011)

First, bravo for getting kovachii to bloom!!!! For how long do you have the plants?

the second pic shows the petals at their best!!!! 

Jean


----------



## Phragmatic (Oct 29, 2011)

JeanLux said:


> First, bravo for getting kovachii to bloom!!!! For how long do you have the plants?
> 
> the second pic shows the petals at their best!!!!
> 
> Jean



Those kovachiis came from a flask imported from peruflora in 2006. A long waiting!


----------



## Shiva (Oct 29, 2011)

I would go further than JeanLux. Congrats for growing it up to flowering size, and then for flowering it.


----------



## AquaGem (Oct 29, 2011)

Amazing.... congrats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## NYEric (Oct 29, 2011)

Hmmm, my first 1st post dissappeared! Still some gremlins in the system. 
THanks for sharing and great job getting them to blooming size.


----------



## John Boy (Oct 29, 2011)

Wowwwwwww!!!! That's good work, from flask to flowering! It's probably been asked many a time: do these flowers smell at all?


----------



## NYEric (Oct 29, 2011)

Good question!! I never thought to smell one!


----------



## Phragmatic (Oct 29, 2011)

John Boy said:


> Wowwwwwww!!!! That's good work, from flask to flowering! It's probably been asked many a time: do these flowers smell at all?



First, thank you all for the good comments
No,i have not noticed any fragrance at all.


----------



## Marc (Oct 29, 2011)

Really stunning, thanks for sharing.

Maybe one day.......


----------



## SlipperFan (Oct 29, 2011)

These really have a strong magenta and white differential -- I like!!!


----------



## Berthold (Oct 30, 2011)

Phragmatic said:


> Here is photos of two of my Phragmipedium kovachii. Both are self of the clone 'tupac Amaru' from Peruflora.



Can we have a look into the shoe from above please to see if there are yellow margins at the inner lip?


----------



## Phragmatic (Oct 30, 2011)

Berthold said:


> Can we have a look into the shoe from above please to see if there are yellow margins at the inner lip?



This photo is not the best but you can see some yellow.


----------



## SlipperKing (Oct 30, 2011)

Nice job. Do you still have more plants from the flask coming along?


----------



## phrag guy (Oct 30, 2011)

that is great Dennis,nice to see hear in Camada


----------



## Shiva (Oct 30, 2011)

Most of you probably don't know but Denis is responsible for the Orchid collection at the Montreal Botanical Garden. And so far as I can tell, he's doing a good job. He also has his own orchid collection. Kudos Denis. I hope the kovachii I bought from you will do as well as yours. :clap::clap::clap:


----------



## W. Beetus (Oct 30, 2011)

Beautiful! My favorite kovachii clone.


----------



## Phragmatic (Oct 30, 2011)

SlipperKing said:


> Nice job. Do you still have more plants from the flask coming along?



Yes, i do have other plants from that flask. A couple of those have made sheet but only two flowered this summer.


----------



## Paphman910 (Oct 30, 2011)

Very nice! Good to see it growing well in Canada!

Paphman910


----------



## peter.orchid (Oct 30, 2011)

I love to see a kovachii with flowers.
I have a seedling too and I hope to see
a flower next year.


----------



## Erythrone (Oct 30, 2011)

Mille fois bravo!!!

That species is not the easiest to bloom, is it?


----------



## Gilda (Oct 30, 2011)

:clap::drool: Congrats !!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Berthold (Nov 1, 2011)

Phragmatic said:


> This photo is not the best but you can see some yellow.



Thanks, Denis.

Meanwhile I believe plants without these yellow edges are bastards.


----------



## SlipperKing (Nov 1, 2011)

"Meanwhile I believe plants without these yellow edges are bastards."

*Hunnnn?*


----------



## SlipperFan (Nov 1, 2011)

Double Huhhhhh?!


----------



## likespaphs (Nov 1, 2011)

perhaps he means hybrids?


----------



## NYEric (Nov 1, 2011)

crossed with what? probably means runts!


----------



## Berthold (Nov 2, 2011)

likespaphs said:


> perhaps he means hybrids?



I confirm. Yes bastard are hybrids. 

But I have no idea which partner can be involved to delete the yellow edge at the lip.


----------



## Hakone (Nov 2, 2011)

NYEric said:


> crossed with what? probably means runts!



Speculation:sob:


----------



## mormodes (Nov 2, 2011)

Berthold said:


> I confirm. Yes bastard are hybrids.
> 
> But I have no idea which partner can be involved to delete the yellow edge at the lip.



I guess I still don't understand. Are you saying that all the kovachiis you've ever seen have yellow on the lip and now you've seen some coming to market without it? Couldn't the presence or absence of yellow just be evidence of individual variation within a selfing? I've never seen a kovachii in person, only pictures on the web & some people say these have been photoshopped. So I wonder what you know that I should know too, *G*. Again, I don't mean to sound argumentative. I just want to learn.


----------



## li'l frog (Nov 2, 2011)

The yellow edge on the interior of the lip is characteristic of Phrag kovachii mature flowers. It doesn't appear until after day 5, and is fully apparant before the flower drops.


----------



## Berthold (Nov 2, 2011)

mormodes said:


> Couldn't the presence or absence of yellow just be evidence of individual variation within a selfing?



It can but I don't believe because the yellow edge is an extrem item of the lip and I think it has something to do with pollination and so it will be never absent at wild plants of that species.

But to confirm my theorie I try to find out about that colour item at all available and documented flowers.

My own plants from two different sources are not yet of flowering size.


----------



## Hakone (Nov 2, 2011)

What is that?

please 2x click in the photo 

http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=...0149834847&page=2&ndsp=25&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:24


----------



## Berthold (Nov 2, 2011)

Hakone said:


> What is that?



a true kovachii


----------



## li'l frog (Nov 2, 2011)

Pics of the Phrag kovachii displayed at the Orchid Growers' Guild show in 2009, owned by Chuck Acker. The first pic is day 3 (plant came into the show as a day 1 flower). The second pic was taken about day 8. Thank you, Leo, for the pic.


----------



## mormodes (Nov 2, 2011)

Berthold said:


> It can but I don't believe because the yellow edge is an extrem item of the lip and I think it has something to do with pollination and so it will be never absent at wild plants of that species.
> 
> But to confirm my theorie I try to find out about that colour item at all available and documented flowers.
> 
> My own plants from two different sources are not yet of flowering size.



Thanks, Berthold. So what would someone hybridize kovachii with in order to get a flower that looks just like a kovachii except it doesn't have the yellow? Again, I do not mean this to be an argumentative question. Just wondering. Andrettae? Hmmm.... 

Anyway, My kovachiis and hybrids arent' anywhere near blooming size. sigh.


----------



## mormodes (Nov 2, 2011)

li'l frog said:


> The yellow edge on the interior of the lip is characteristic of Phrag kovachii mature flowers. It doesn't appear until after day 5, and is fully apparant before the flower drops.



Thanks!


----------



## Phragmatic (Nov 2, 2011)

li'l frog said:


> The yellow edge on the interior of the lip is characteristic of Phrag kovachii mature flowers. It doesn't appear until after day 5, and is fully apparant before the flower drops.



Thanks for the info, that's indeed what hapened to my flower.


----------



## Berthold (Nov 3, 2011)

li'l frog said:


> The yellow edge on the interior of the lip is characteristic of Phrag kovachii mature flowers. It doesn't appear until after day 5, and is fully apparant before the flower drops.



I cannot confirm this. I only know plants where the lip immediately shows the yellow edges.


----------



## Leo Schordje (Nov 5, 2011)

Denis,
Nicely grown and flowered. By the way, for a plant that matures as large as kovachii does, 5 years from flask to bloom is fast, you are at the head of the pack, rather than trailing. Good growing. I like your plant. Nice flower. By the way, I have no doubt that it is truly a kovachii, no visual evidence of DNA from other species. 



Berthold said:


> Thanks, Denis.
> 
> Meanwhile I believe plants without these yellow edges are bastards.



For what it is worth, here is my opinion;
Kovachii has not been in cultivation long enough for back cross hybrids to be blooming size. The key floral characteristics used to describe a species are all morphology related traits, morphology = precense or absence of structures and their SHAPES and proportions relative to other parts of the whole; shape of staminode, shape of petals, dorsal, pouch, etc. Color is usually NOT a significant taxonomic trait. If the only difference between a plant on hand and photos of the type specimens is the presence or absence of a little yellow color, the difference is trivial and not significant. Differences in shape of significant structures like the staminode or the pouch are key, color is not. 

Again, nobody has ever seen more than a few kovachii in bloom, live and in person. Kovachii simply has not been in cultivation long enough. As you have said, you haven't bloomed yours yet either. Checking a photograph is not the same as seeing a plant live. The angle of the camera can show or hide various traits and distort the appearance and proportions of shapes. Colors are often shifted by photographs. Taxonomy from photographs is fairly weak, and should always be qualified with a disclaimer stating so.


----------



## gonewild (Nov 5, 2011)

Leo Schordje said:


> Denis,
> Taxonomy from photographs is fairly weak, and should always be qualified with a disclaimer stating so.



And dried pressed flower specimens are not a good way to add subtle color descriptions either.


----------



## Berthold (Nov 5, 2011)

Leo Schordje said:


> Differences in shape of significant structures like the staminode or the pouch are key, color is not.



Generally I agree completely but not in this case.

I believe the yellow colour at the exposed position of the flower is important for the pollination process and therefore it is esential for the species.

But I am still unsure and will proceed in collecting data.


----------



## gonewild (Nov 5, 2011)

Berthold said:


> Generally I agree completely but not in this case.
> 
> I believe the yellow colour at the exposed position of the flower is important for the pollination process and therefore it is esential for the species.
> 
> But I am still unsure and will proceed in collecting data.



Really? With the giant purple bloom I would think that was what attracted the pollenator and not the yellow that is not very visible.


----------



## Berthold (Nov 5, 2011)

gonewild said:


> Really? With the giant purple bloom I would think that was what attracted the pollenator and not the yellow that is not very visible.



Yes but there must be a special motivation for somebody to scrabble _into_ the shoe


----------



## likespaphs (Nov 6, 2011)

what's the chance that there is a range of colors (i.e. with our without the yellow) and that the ones in the wild that are most successful have the yellow and ones that were not successful (i.e. not pollinated) may not have the yellow
just a thought 
(but i imagine it was said before)


----------



## Berthold (Nov 6, 2011)

likespaphs said:


> what's the chance that there is a range of colors (i.e. with our without the yellow) and that the ones in the wild that are most successful have the yellow and ones that were not successful (i.e. not pollinated) may not have the yellow



right, but if there is no pollination due to missing yellow the plant cannot survive and would have been exstinguished.


----------



## Marc (Nov 6, 2011)

Maybe it's a specific trait for a specific pk colony. At the moment I think it's a bit far fetched to make assumptions based on pictures viewed on the net regarding if a plant shown on a picture is a species yes or no.


----------



## Kyle (Nov 6, 2011)

Berthold said:


> right, but if there is no pollination due to missing yellow the plant cannot survive and would have been exstinguished.



Quite the opposite, producing seed take a lot of energy from a plant. Plants which never do this likely will be stronger. And since the plants live indifinatly, those plants likely form large clumps and were most attractive to collectors. I doubt your hybrid theory, could just be a mutant.

Kyle


----------



## Berthold (Nov 6, 2011)

Kyle said:


> Quite the opposite, producing seed take a lot of energy from a plant. Plants which never do this likely will be stronger. And since the plants live indifinatly, those plants likely form large clumps and were most attractive to collectors. I doubt your hybrid theory, could just be a mutant.
> 
> Kyle



no, individual livetime is always limited due to never perfect genetic multiplying and therefore no plant exists in the world which can only multiply in a vegetative way.


----------



## Kyle (Nov 6, 2011)

Berthold said:


> no, individual livetime is always limited due to never perfect genetic multiplying and therefore no plant exists in the world which can only multiply in a vegetative way.



If I understand you correctly, you are wrong. In theory, an orchid could live forever.


----------



## Berthold (Nov 6, 2011)

Kyle said:


> an orchid could live forever.



no sorry, that is not possible because the reproduction process of the cell doesn't work 100% perfectly.
And by that You always get a degeneration effect after a certain number of reproductions.


----------



## NYEric (Nov 6, 2011)

I've personally seen orchids over 100 years old. I cant see why a plant kant keepsetting bulbs, etc, to continue growing.


----------



## likespaphs (Nov 6, 2011)

some species have long lived plants and others seem to grow for a short time, then die
i don't know if kovachii has been grown long enough in cultivation to know this
i was thinking that the pouch color is a variable that keeps coming up. perhaps a previous pollinator preferred the yellow rim and that's why it keeps coming up in some individuals, just in case that pollinator comes back around.
i dunno, probably just a silly theory


----------



## Kyle (Nov 7, 2011)

Berthold said:


> no sorry, that is not possible because the reproduction process of the cell doesn't work 100% perfectly.
> And by that You always get a degeneration effect after a certain number of reproductions.



I don't usually get baited into silly arguments, but, hear I am..

I put in theory because there are exceptions.

Some plants may mutate themselfs to death, but the vast majority do not, and I'm talking 98%. Plants don't get cancer, not like animals. If in fact there are plants without yellow, they are likely outliars in the bell curve of variation. I am not convinced the yellow serves any function.


----------



## valenzino (Nov 7, 2011)

To find out you must first discover wich is the pollinator..or pollinators...
then,if same pollinator also pollinate another Phrag species for example,you will already know that the yellow lines are useless or only makeing a small difference...
And as Leo said is impossible to have already 2nd generation Pk's hybrids,only way to have a Pk similar flower...
and even if it was possible,there still a good percntage that genetically the hybrid will show the yellow lines in a part of seedlings...so I think is a nearly impossible speculation to solve that way...is better you go to Peru' during Pk flowering season and go see flowered plants in the wild,to solve your doubts.
Good luck!



Berthold said:


> Generally I agree completely but not in this case.
> 
> I believe the yellow colour at the exposed position of the flower is important for the pollination process and therefore it is esential for the species.
> 
> But I am still unsure and will proceed in collecting data.


----------



## Berthold (Nov 7, 2011)

Kyle said:


> I don't usually get baited into silly arguments, but, Some plants may mutate themselfs to death, but the vast majority do not, and I'm talking 98%.



No, that is wrong, 100% of induviduals mutate to death, not via cancer of course. 
All individual plants (not the species) have a limited live time, but the mechanism which courses the limitation differs between animals an plant.


----------



## Erythrone (Nov 7, 2011)

Maybe you are right Berthold. I never heard of this. Any reference on the subject?


----------



## Berthold (Nov 7, 2011)

Erythrone said:


> Maybe you are right Berthold. I never heard of this. Any reference on the subject?



Have a look at the work of this lady http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiane_Nüsslein-Volhard
She got the Nobel prize for studies on that subject (not plants but human beeings)


----------



## valenzino (Nov 7, 2011)

Berthold said:


> No, that is wrong, 100% of induviduals mutate to death, not via cancer of course.
> All individual plants (not the species) have a limited live time, but the mechanism which courses the limitation differs between animals an plant.



I think have not to be considered a "mutation".Is degeneration in the DNA.More or less what happens to humans...the reason why we became old unfortunately...obviously in plants,particularly the ones that regenerate compleately new organs every year,is different and slower...but think about it...the older plants around known can have 10-15000 years?...There are no plants around that are milions years old....
so Berthold is right in my opinion about degeneration or as he call it mutation...But that dont mean that an orchid can live enough to do what Kyle says.
I understand the point that Berthold take up,but in my opinion he is too strict in his point....every liveing creature have peculiarities,organs etc...that may seems to be important but in reality are useless but still carry them...and absolutely a difference like the one of the yellow lines can be a symptom that demostrate that the plant is hybrid...first you have to find out also evidence of the genetic of another plant inside...
This because,as all species originate from evolution of mutation..from a species to another,and many times including natural hybridization,if we hang to strictly to those small peculiarity,we might consider all slipper orchids as bastards...as probably are originated from the same milions years old ancestral plant.


----------



## gonewild (Nov 7, 2011)

Berthold said:


> No, that is wrong, 100% of induviduals mutate to death, not via cancer of course.
> All individual plants (not the species) have a limited live time, but the mechanism which courses the limitation differs between animals an plant.



You assume that all mutations are in a degenerative direction? 
100% to death is a difficult number to defend in a valid argument.


----------



## gonewild (Nov 7, 2011)

valenzino said:


> obviously in plants,particularly the ones that regenerate compleately new organs every year,is different and slower...but think about it...the older plants around known can have 10-15000 years?...There are no plants around that are milions years old....



But the limitation of no million year old plants being around is a result of sexual reproduction and evolution changing the plant to a new species for the progeny that are dispersed.
It could be possible to have an individual plant live a million years if the environment it was located in remained constant. So based on this concept let's assume the plant reproduces vegetative for a million years and never mutates but the earth mutates (erodes) away and no longer provides a home for the un-mutated plant. That is why there are no 1 million year old plants.


----------



## gonewild (Nov 7, 2011)

valenzino said:


> ..is better you go to Peru' during Pk flowering season and go see flowered plants in the wild,to solve your doubts.
> Good luck!



I'll be there in January and will have a look at wild pk to find one without yellow.


----------



## Berthold (Nov 7, 2011)

gonewild said:


> That is why there are no 1 million year old plants.



No, the reproduction process of a cell doesnt work properly by 100%. And the bugs in the genetic control structures summarize at each reproduction step and lead to death after a certain number of steps.


----------



## Berthold (Nov 7, 2011)

gonewild said:


> I'll be there in January and will have a look at wild pk to find one without yellow.



To confirm my theory I hope You are not sucessful


----------



## gonewild (Nov 7, 2011)

Berthold said:


> To confirm my theory I hope You are not sucessful



Do you want to define the exact color of yellow?


----------



## Berthold (Nov 7, 2011)

gonewild said:


> Do you want to define the exact color of yellow?



Yes, let us take the colour RAL 1026 ( luminous yellow) as the discussion base. 

and please have a look at the pollinators


----------



## gonewild (Nov 7, 2011)

Berthold said:


> Yes, let us take the colour RAL 1026 ( luminous yellow) as the discussion base.
> 
> and please have a look at the pollinators



The actual pollinators will be the RAL 1026 colored ones that go to the flowers correct? oke:


----------



## Marc (Nov 8, 2011)

Isn't it time that this topic is split?


----------



## gonewild (Nov 8, 2011)

Split the topic? I don't know maybe it is big enough to divide. Just need to make sure both divisions have good roots.

:evil:


----------



## Erythrone (Nov 8, 2011)

gonewild said:


> Split the topic? I don't know maybe it is big enough to divide. Just need to make sure both divisions have good roots.
> 
> :evil:


:rollhappy::rollhappy:


----------

