# Two recent awards



## tim (Jun 4, 2008)

My two most recent awards given this last week:
Paph. liemianum 'Kate's Choice' AM/AOS...beautiful color but exceptional size: NS: 10.4, PW: 1.6, DSW: 4.3


Paph. emersonii 'Kate's Moon' HCC/AOS...very nice color, good symmetric shape, but on the smaller side...

Both of these plants were selected in flower at the Orchid Zone and photographed by Eric Hunt...

-Tim


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## goldenrose (Jun 4, 2008)

EXCELLENT!!! :clap::clap::clap: Congrats!!!


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## Candace (Jun 4, 2008)

Nice plants, but I'd rather bloom them myself and get the award. Of course, that's a pet peeve of mine.


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## Faan (Jun 4, 2008)

Tim, these are so nice.


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## NYEric (Jun 4, 2008)

Nice, I'd be happy just to get to OZ, much less enter plants.


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## SlipperFan (Jun 4, 2008)

Congratulations, Tim. Good selections.


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## rdlsreno (Jun 5, 2008)

Very nice Tim! Your Photos are excellent!!!


Ramon


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## Rick (Jun 5, 2008)

It's good to see awards on species Paphs. These are not new species, so there should be substantial award history to compete against.

What show or judging center awarded these beauties?


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## Corbin (Jun 5, 2008)

Rick said:


> It's good to see awards on species Paphs.



Species? Why the cultivar name if they are species? And I am not trying to be a "smarty" here I really not sure I understand this distinction.


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## Rick (Jun 5, 2008)

Corbin said:


> Species? Why the cultivar name if they are species? And I am not trying to be a "smarty" here I really not sure I understand this distinction.



You have to give cultivar names to awarded species too Ed. That will provide a name for those exceptional examples of the species that starts the naming heritage for future breeding. (Technically you can, and should, put a clonal name on any plant in your collection to keep track of it for breeding purposes).

In the judging aspect of slippers its an uphill battle to get a new example of a species awarded if they have been known in cultivation for any length of time, because the standard is raised by previous awards.


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## PaphMadMan (Jun 5, 2008)

Rick said:


> You have to give cultivar names to awarded species too Ed. That will provide a name for those exceptional examples of the species that starts the naming heritage for future breeding. (Technically you can, and should, put a clonal name on any plant in your collection to keep track of it for breeding purposes).



Also, if any plant is good enough to divide it should get a cultivar name, otherwise eventually someone could end up with what they think is 2 (or 200) different plants that are really just divisions of the same plant. Species or hybrid makes no difference.


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## Corbin (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks for the edification guys.:rollhappy:


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## NYEric (Jun 6, 2008)

You don't *have to* give an awarded plant a cultivar name do you?


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## Rick Barry (Jun 6, 2008)

Once again readers are confronted with Candace attempting to rain on someone else's parade. Apparently it irritates her that someone might purchase a plant and have it awarded although they didn't personally bloom it. Putting aside the fact that this is her own personal problem, and ignoring her rudeness in attempting to cast a shadow on someone else's moment in the sun, certain points must be raised in defense of this practice.

The distinction between floral quality and cultural awards must be recognized. An HCC, an AM or an FCC is granted to acknowledge the qualities inherent in the plant itself, and is in no way to be construed as a recognition of the exhibitor's skills as a grower. Exhibitors are granted cultural awards, plants receive quality awards. Exhibitors may take pride in recognizing the sort of qualities that the judges value, but that is the limit of the accomplishment. Nothing else is implied.

The judging process is a means of establishing the current state of the art of orchid breeding, and in the case of species it is accomplished through line- and selective breeding. Flawed though it may be (an entirely different debate), judging provides a permanent record of at least some of the best products of breeding programs throughout the world. To argue against exhibiting or awarding any superior plant is an argument in favor of limiting that record. Other than for personal reasons, it is hard to understand the rationale for advancing such an argument.

The implication here is that one should only submit plants for judging that they have personally bloomed. That would exclude plants that are boarded in a commercial greenhouse, since it is the operator of the greenhouse who actually grew and bloomed the plant. This might also be a source of irritation to Candace, but of course she can't know with any certainty exactly who grew any given plant. Perhaps she would be less irritated if the exhibitor simply lied and claimed to have grown the plant him- or herself. 

Sadly, some of the best orchid clones don't survive their first blooming, due to a variety of factors, some of which are unrelated to the quality of the plant. Should such plants merely be consigned to oblivion in the name of some misguided principle? I don't think so.

Congratulations Tim and Kate!

Rick Barry


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## Candace (Jun 6, 2008)

I was rather polite, I think. Your rant, on the other hand, quite rude. Many people feel the same as I do. I'm just not shy. And I'm not going to get into this considering there is another thread dedicated to what I call "buying awards". Funny that the people most outraged by what I believe are those who buy the most awards....


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## Rick (Jun 6, 2008)

NYEric said:


> You don't *have to* give an awarded plant a cultivar name do you?



Yes. The Award will not be given without naming (the AOS does give you some time to come up with a name if you don't have one ready on the spot). How else will you be able to distinguish it from all the non awarded examples of a species (or hybrid)?

In this case there are thousands of leimianums and emersonii's in culture. Given the years these species have been in cultivation there are probably somewhere between 20 and 50 quality awards given out to these species (all with their own distinctive name). And now Kates Choice is added to the distinctive list of awarded clones for these two species.

Also if future bloomings are even better then they can potentially have the awards "upgraded". They will already be named but the quality award will go up.


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## slippertalker (Jun 6, 2008)

While it is not against the rules to purchase a plant and then submit it for judging, there is something inherently diminished in my mind about doing so. There is much more accomplishment in growing a plant from flask or seedling status into an awarded plant but that being said it is still nice to have any plant awarded.

While cultural awards are for the exhibitor and quality awards are for the plant, in my experience a very well grown plant is usually what pushes a nice plant to an awarded plant. If your ability to cultivate such plants is above average then your chances of getting them awarded is increased if the genetic possibilities are there. In the end, good culture is the goal.


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## Rick (Jun 6, 2008)

Another way to look at this, is that a quality award is suposed to be given to the plant, and the grower is supposed to be anonamous. (What RB said another way). At shows (and judging centers for that matter) its often apparent who the plants owner/grower is.

I don't care what is getting judged (dogs, cats, chickens, or orchids), I always here the grumblings in the background, that there is bias for the big growers and breeders. Subsequently, I think it reflects well on the judging system that you can get a quality award on a plant without having to have been the grower.


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## aquacorps (Jun 6, 2008)

Candice, Rick's post was cogent and well reasoned. You appear to have a deep seated problem with the present AOS judging system. If you feel so strongly about this issue why don't you petition the AOS to change the rules for awards? Real simple solution.

Did Abraham Lincoln, Rosa Parks, or Harvey Milk sit back and let injustice flourish? No, they changed the system! Will you become the Rosa Park's of the orchid world? Rusty


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## Candace (Jun 6, 2008)

Nope, no "deep seated" problems with the AOS, but I am entitled to my opinion. The last time I checked, this forum was about free speech. I have already commented fully on the other thread so I really don't feel I need to argue my point or my standards. 

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5351&highlight=respect+ethics

Edit: And I agree with Rick's statement about grumbling about awards. I'm sure people in dog showing, cats etc. deal with the same issues.


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## Heather (Jun 6, 2008)

Frankly, I agree with Candace, and I know other members here who also do. Sometimes we get a little well...insert word here..." "


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## paphlady (Jun 6, 2008)

It appears that people who are offended by others buying quality plants and getting them awarded are the ones that are too frugal or lack the appreciation for quality plants.


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## paphlady (Jun 6, 2008)

Rick said:


> I don't care what is getting judged (dogs, cats, chickens, or orchids), I always here the grumblings in the background, that there is bias for the big growers and breeders.



Actually the "big growers/breeders" can be a double edged sword. I know of instances where the plants are not awarded or given a much lesser award (e.g. a gold medal/FCC quality plant given a bronze medal/HCC or screened out) because they belong to certain establishments.


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## Rick (Jun 6, 2008)

paphlady said:


> Actually the "big growers/breeders" can be a double edged sword. I know of instances where the plants are not awarded or given a much lesser award (e.g. a gold medal/FCC quality plant given a bronze medal/HCC or screened out) because they belong to certain establishments.



I was not implying that there is (or isn't) an awards bias for big growers (by judges), but you confirmed my experiences that no award seems to go without some kind of political scrutiny.:evil:


Actually I would hope that "big growers" are able to get the bulk of awards. They dedicate there lives to finding/breeding/growing/showing the orchids that the rest of us want to pay for. So by default if they had crappy unawardable plants they wouldn't be able to stay in the biz long.


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## Heather (Jun 6, 2008)

paphlady said:


> It appears that people who are offended by others buying quality plants and getting them awarded are the ones that are too frugal or lack the appreciation for quality plants.



Ha! The conservationists I work with would laugh loud over this. We get paid a pittance and do a goddamn lot of work for these plants to survive in the wild.

I don't think anyone said anything about being "frugal" nor being appropriately "appreciative" in this thread. I think there is just more pride in growing something ones-self in these instances. That's how I feel, anyway. I spent a huge amount on a small plant that has grown well under my care and I am much more proud of anything it receives, award wise (whether AOS or local Orchid Society,) because I grew it up myself. There is something to be said for that, I believe.


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## Rick (Jun 6, 2008)

Personally I try not to worry about the judging and awarding thing to much outside of the shows and judging centers. My goal is to enjoy my flowers. I enjoy owning and growing some of the better examples of these, and I enjoy the competition at the shows, and learning the qualities of an awardable flower at the judging centers. But outside of those venues I'd just assume to just appreciate what I and others like to grow and show off.

By the way I added some cultural brags to posts on druryi and primulinum var purperescens, and no one has commented yet!!


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## tim (Jun 7, 2008)

*My two cents on buying awards*

Hi...

I figured I should comment since this was me buying awards...

As an AOS probationary judge I think one of the most interesting and meaningful experiences a person can have with regards to judging and education about what makes a "good" flower (of course according to the AOS) is to see a large number of that species or grex all at once. The chance to see little differences and little anomalies that distinguish between average and exceptional qualities is a rare and wonderful one. Unfortunately, there are very few places save select commercial growers at which you can do such a thing. I've been able to pick one out of 200 wardiis from A&P in Massachusetts, one of of 75 liemianums, one out of 2000 green complexes and one from a dozen emersoniis at Orchid Zone. Not only did I get to select one, but I got to purchase it as well!! It's a rare grower who allows such a thing.

Candace, I would absolutely love the chance to bloom out my own seedlings and get them awarded - I certainly will at some point. Until then, until I get space, until my plants get bigger, and until I have good stock from which to breed, it makes sense for me to take advantage of the opportunity to purchase stellar parents. It's the same as buying a dozen seedlings and flowering them all...just that I don't have to take the time and the space to do it myself!! Add in the educational component of seeing huge batches of plants in flower all at once, and in the end, it's definitely worth it.

Likewise, it's pretty stupid for me to claim credit for these plants...they're Terry's plants. They'll likely never bloom as well as they did when he bloomed them...He's a fantastic grower and hybridizer and I certainly wish the AOS had a little bit higher regard for his work. I'm so pleased to have the chance to own them and use them to make my own seedlings (both of them have pods on them right now - thanks Rick!!) and to add to the award records of these species.

If anyone out there has never had the opportunity to see more than 50 of the same grex in flower at once, please, please take a chance to find the opportunity to do so. It's an amazing experience...

Again, just my two cents and thanks all for the interesting discussion and comments...no harm done 

Regards,
Tim


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## Phyrex (Jun 7, 2008)

Congrats Tim. Love the liemianum


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## paphioland (Jun 8, 2008)

I was going to try and refrain from joining in but can't help myself. I think Tim makes good points which I have tried to make before. 

For me it is not a competition as to who is the best grower.It is about beautiful flowers and the genetics and skill that go into hybridizing. It is like the difference between a great composer and a musician.There are many great pianists but few great composers. Most composers are decent musicians on multiple instuments as well. The musician is almost a technician carrying out someone else's ideas. History almost never remembers musicians who don't compose because to be honest their work is somewhat common compared to a great composer. Playing lead violin the best it has ever been played in a performance of Beethoven's 9th does not change the way the masses understand music.People outside of violinists probably don't even know who they are or how good of a job they did. It is like growing. It is almost expected that if you grow a certain type of orchid for some time you should be good at it.I also believe that people who are truly musically gifted, passionate and perceive music as a whole on another level can't resist composing because they want to hear what they feel should be. This is not so different between orchid growers and hybridizer. In both circumstances you need both people. But the skill of hybridizing and composing shows another depth of understanding, talen and vision. The grower/musician is more of a technician trying to make sure someone else's creation gets displayed as best it can be. 
To be honest when I go to see plants I am not thinking wow this plant is sooo well grown. I am looking at the quality of the bloom. The only time I look at the plant is to gather more info on the true potential of the plant. I grow paphs for the blooms not the vegetation. 

So if you want to at all hybridize you need to start off with good plants. It is very foolish to just buy random seedlings unless you buy in the case of complexes thousands you will never get the material to create good ones.Even if you buy a few of a "good cross". The generational time of something like roths make it impossible to catch up to the head of the pack unless you get super lucky in buying a few flasks which is highly improbable.If you line breed with crappy plants and the generational time is 7 yrs you are screwed. It is also selfish not to show these plants to others. Other hybridizers can learn how particular clones of a grex or the grex itself can create nice or poor crosses. If you don't believe in awarding or showing plants unless you grew them from whatever, seedling? Compot? Hybridize them yourself?-you really wish to hurt and stunt the development of paphs without even knowing it. Sorry this is long and written from a blackberry. Excuse the poor structure but you get my points.


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## slippertalker (Jun 8, 2008)

My position is counter to paphioland's opinion. While I understand the point he is making regarding hybridizing, most of us cannot afford to pay the price of high quality mature plants. 

In my experience, the best success for awardable plants is by close watching breeding trends over time and either hybridizing or purchasing high quality flasks. Growing compot and flasks is a great way to learn how to grow orchids, and the plants will adjust to your conditions. It is fun to bloom a good population of a great cross and the variation is interesting. The best plants are awardable in crosses that have good genetics and are designed well.

About half of my awards are from plants out of flask, and there is no doubt that they bloom best when grown very well. The quality of the bloom is definitely connected to culture and genetics in almost equal proportions.

If my priority was hybridizing, then perhaps paphioland's approach would be preferred. With the proper friends, pollen exchanges can accomplish the same quality without have such a large stock of plants.


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## Heather (Jun 8, 2008)

slippertalker said:


> With the proper friends, pollen exchanges can accomplish the same quality without have such a large stock of plants.



And you won't have to pay Terry Root a thousand bucks. 
oke:

(not to mention a good reason for us here at Slippertalk to chat, no?)


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## Rick (Jun 8, 2008)

If you are watching trends you will always be behind the big growers curve since it takes an average of about 7 years to go from pollination to flowering, and they have invested (and continue to invest) into the breeding stock, facilities, and culture research, that us part time hobbyists just aren't prepared to keep up with.

I don't think its worth arguing over who gets the most satisfaction from their efforts, but as a hobbyist with a little over 140 square ft of GH space and a full time job, I'm not adverse to buying and showing an awardable plant when I can find and afford one to support my limited aspirations. I have been breeding for a few years now and have come to appreciate the massive resource investment required to be consistently "competitive" for AOS awards.


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## paphioland (Jun 8, 2008)

slippertalker said:


> My position is counter to paphioland's opinion. While I understand the point he is making regarding hybridizing, most of us cannot afford to pay the price of high quality mature plants.
> 
> In my experience, the best success for awardable plants is by close watching breeding trends over time and either hybridizing or purchasing high quality flasks. Growing compot and flasks is a great way to learn how to grow orchids, and the plants will adjust to your conditions. It is fun to bloom a good population of a great cross and the variation is interesting. The best plants are awardable in crosses that have good genetics and are designed well.
> 
> ...


You would have to grow out 4000 complexes or 250 roths or more. That is a bunch of flasks. You would need a ton of space. There aren't many people who have the quality of plants needed to make crosses on the level of TON or OZ. I think Tim is right. Awards don't mean much. Until you see hundreds of a cross with good parents you can't fully inderstand how good that species or hybrid can be. Almost all of the best examples of paphs are not awarded. So just looking at awards won't give you the whole scope of how good the species or hybrid can be. You have to get out and see alot. Also you have to have a "good eye" to pick what is good and what is not. What goes well together and what does not.


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## slippertalker (Jun 9, 2008)

paphioland said:


> You would have to grow out 4000 complexes or 250 roths or more. That is a bunch of flasks. You would need a ton of space. There aren't many people who have the quality of plants needed to make crosses on the level of TON or OZ. I think Tim is right. Awards don't mean much. Until you see hundreds of a cross with good parents you can't fully inderstand how good that species or hybrid can be. Almost all of the best examples of paphs are not awarded. So just looking at awards won't give you the whole scope of how good the species or hybrid can be. You have to get out and see alot. Also you have to have a "good eye" to pick what is good and what is not. What goes well together and what does not.



Complex paph crosses produce uneven quality at best and a good one is the exception in many crosses. In fact, many of them are terrible....A more prudent way to select complex crosses from flask is to purchase those with a proven record. 

Select breeding in paph species is a great way to find a few that are very good and you don't need 4000 plants to find a keeper. Modern phrag breeding has a high level of quality if you ensure the parents are of high quality. 

Out of 15 Jason Fischer flask seedlings I purchased from Hans Burkhardt years ago, about half are award quality. His phrag besseae's flask seedlings were the basis of OZ's besseae's. I have received 2 FCC's and 3 AM's out of that cross........They have all improved vastly as the plants mature.

If you closely watch, and anticipate hybridizing improvements it is not difficult to figure out what will be very good. I do agree that it takes a trained eye and years of experience to sort though all of this. 

I enjoy growing flasks of paphs and phrags for the variety that they present. The poor ones are culled and the good ones improve my collection. If you have patience and the space, I wouldn't do it any other way. If you have limited space, no patience and a ton of money, then buy the best from OZ. Of course, using the plants for hybridizing would be useless since he's already a generation ahead of you...oke:


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## paphioland (Jun 9, 2008)

slippertalker said:


> Complex paph crosses produce uneven quality at best and a good one is the exception in many crosses. In fact, many of them are terrible....A more prudent way to select complex crosses from flask is to purchase those with a proven record.
> 
> Select breeding in paph species is a great way to find a few that are very good and you don't need 4000 plants to find a keeper. Modern phrag breeding has a high level of quality if you ensure the parents are of high quality.
> 
> ...





No matter how good a complex cross is to get an *exceptional *one you need at least hundreds or more.

Even a good species cross like rex x mm, if you even could get flasks the chances of you blooming out 'Wide Horizon' or 'Mighty' is not likely.
Look at 'Val' x 'mm'. You could have bought 10 flasks of this exceptional cross and the chances of you getting 'perfection' or 'titanic' would have been small. 

When it comes to judging how good plants are by awards, I place little stock in awards because like I said most truly exceptional plants are not awarded. Especially complexes.

I enjoy quality flowers. The higher the quality as I perceive it the more Valuable the plant is to me. Even if you don't care about hybridizing it makes little economic sense for someone who desires really top quality clones to grow tons of flasks unless they truly enjoy it or are a business who can sell the culls. Also many high level crosses are not for sale before they are bloomed.

Why do you say that? Terry unlike other breeders will frequently sell the best of a new cross. Why would the cross you made always be behind? On the topic of the OZ, people complain about the prices but Terry is actually pretty fair with the pricing. At least he never tries to screw you which happens at many other establishments.The overhead at the OZ must be tremendous. So to bloom those one in a thousand plants, because that is what some of them are takes money. He sells the pot plants and part of that profit goes into lowering the price of the select plant. I think you could buy a thousand flasks of Jason fischer from other breeders and not find another 'triplicate'. 


The thing is that everyone enjoys different aspects of growing orchids. I respect other people's goals and how they achieve them. This is a hobby for most and so you should do what you enjoy. Some people insist on discretely putting down how some people find joy in their hobby. They think they are better than others because they do their hobby in a certain way. This is really ridiculous. 

I never talk about my growing because it is not as important to me as my goal. It is part of my process to achieve my end goal. That is how I do my hobby. It is how my mind enjoys itself. So why should I change? Because Heather thinks so?? I sit back and idly take the snide remarks about not growing or blooming things. I grow and bloom many things. If I didn't buy them as select plants they are rarely worth sharing. I can tell you that I am a better grower than most who make the comments. It is not because I have some magic gift or am better than others-it is because others have been gracious enough to teach me and I have been doing it for some time now with what are over a thousand plants now, counting seedlings prob 2k. If I had the time and resources I think I could grow really really well but I have to work. As much as I like orchids I like my job, friends and family 10 x more. So that is my hobby, that is how I do it. I know this sounds angry but it really isn't I am just being open. And Heather I am not trying to target or hate on you specifically. You know you make provocative comments but you are not alone by any means. Actually, I really don't have a problem with the remarks but I feel I need to speak my mind. I feel better now.


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## slippertalker (Jun 9, 2008)

Thanks for the opinion. We differ on our approaches to how to afford quality plants for our personal satisfaction but not in our love for orchids.


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## paphioland (Jun 9, 2008)

slippertalker said:


> Thanks for the opinion. We differ on our approaches to how to afford quality plants for our personal satisfaction but not in our love for orchids.




Well put. Thanks


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## tim (Jun 10, 2008)

*costs...*

Yeah...the liemianum was $75...definitely not that expensive. I could have bought 3 seedlings or one fantastic blooming plant and I would have paid the same price and I would have not gotten the opportunity to see a large number of them in flower at the same time and had the chance to pick out a good one. How much does a flask of liemianum cost? How much does it cost to grow them for 5 years to get flowers? What if none of them are award quality? To be perfectly honest, it's significantly more expensive to produce, grow and flower a large enough crop to get a good one than it is to simply go and pick a good one in flower, to say nothing of the cost of my time. Which in my opinion is expensive .

I'm so happy this has generated an interesting discussion. I hope that 10 years from now when I've bloomed out seedlings I've grown from my own hybridization program that I can be as lucky as well. Like you've all said there are many ways to enjoy paphs; perhaps that why they're so much fun!!

Thanks for your opinions,

Tim


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