# Why Paph. Crystelle is not avaible?



## Erythrone (Sep 30, 2013)

Paph. Crystelle is (Paph. Double Trix x Paph. rothschildianum)

IMO it is the most wonderful Paph. ever bred. But why nobody seems to have remade the cross?


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## Justin (Sep 30, 2013)

would love to see a pic if you have one.


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## Erythrone (Sep 30, 2013)

You can see pictures here:

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8865


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## paphreek (Sep 30, 2013)

One of the reasons the cross was so great was the high quality of the parents used.


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## rob (Sep 30, 2013)

I won one of Frank Smith's Crystelle plants from an auction at the Slipper symposium several years ago, it was pricey just ask Eric, and sadly it has been going down hill since I got it. It is down to 2 small growths and I will probably lose it despite many attempts to fix whatever it is that it likes or doesn't. I can grow parvis, multis and species well, but give me a brachy and watch it die. For me I think it is water quality, I am also slowly killing a bunch of compots of Frank's leucochilums as well. So the short of it in my opinion is that it is a challenging plant to grow for many so you wont see many out there. I have a similar cross from Fred Clarke and it is growing better but after 5 years there is no sign of blooming
Rob


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## NYEric (Oct 1, 2013)

What media do you have it in? I find Brachys grow drier than most other Paphs. Try something that doesn't stay too wet.


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## Ozpaph (Oct 1, 2013)

I suspect a complex brachy crossed with a multi probably has a low fertility rate


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## paworsport (Oct 1, 2013)

I have not the complete name of this hybrid from Franck with me , but Sam Tsui offered a similar cross last year : brachipetalum "super bowl " x roth Atticus.
Super Bowl is 10 cm wide.

I have got one and it is a fast grower. Sam said me that an english paphanatic bought 25 plants of the cross. I suppose he is expecting nice flowers like paph Christelle.


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## rob (Oct 1, 2013)

Hi Eric,
It is in a course/ medium fir bark, sponge rock, charcoal mix as most my parvis are, well drained in my opinion and grown in a orchid heavy greenhouse with a 50% plus humidity and @ 60-70% shade. Brachys probably don't like my 55 degree lows at night in Jan-Feb.I'd love to save it or pass it on to someone with more expertise with this section, Frank assured me it would be awardable when it bloomed.
Rob


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## SlipperKing (Oct 1, 2013)

This may sound far fetched but grow it in a basket. I have a Paph Woluwense that gave me nothing but problems with boom and bust, spike then basal rot. The last time, tore off the rot and plopped it into a 6" teak basket. Zero rot and growing nicely. I have somewhere between 30 and 40 plants in baskets now. All are doing great.
Your second choice, send it to me


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## NYEric (Oct 1, 2013)

HaHa, good try. I don't remember you being there at the auction!
Rob, I would put it in a sunny spot w/less humidity.
Eurythrone, if you don't have one, Naive Saint, Woluwense, or Peppermint are very similar and more available.


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## Dido (Oct 2, 2013)

I would like to have one of this cross too, but the cross kolo X godefro can often look close to it. 
If someone remake it think on me.....


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## Justin (Oct 2, 2013)

Crysrelle crossed back onto roth would be mindblowing.


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## Cheyenne (Oct 2, 2013)

I always wish someone would go further with this breeding. At one point Hadley Cash made Rolfei x bellatulum which was very nice. I can't help but think how cool it would be a few generations down the line to have rounder flowers like this but held high on a multifloral stem. You never know what traits will come out. But most people tell me after the first gen of brachy x roth the plants are mostly sterile. I wonder if converting them to 4N would help. But it seems like no one does that anymore.


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## Dido (Oct 2, 2013)

Cheyenne said:


> I always wish someone would go further with this breeding. At one point Hadley Cash made Rolfei x bellatulum which was very nice. I can't help but think how cool it would be a few generations down the line to have rounder flowers like this but held high on a multifloral stem. You never know what traits will come out. But most people tell me after the first gen of brachy x roth the plants are mostly sterile. I wonder if converting them to 4N would help. But it seems like no one does that anymore.



On which way exactly could you make a 4N is this with colchizin but on which way. 

Rolfei to get into flower is soemthing sounds strange at first. 
At least after summer treatment out and dont look at it, it starts to grow year by year. since the last 2.


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## Cheyenne (Oct 2, 2013)

I was meaning that some of the fertility issues incountered with more complex crosses of phragmipediums were solved by converting the parents to 4n then making the cross. I don't know why or for what reason this helps but I wonder if using 4N parents would make these crosses with unlike parents more fertile.


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## TyroneGenade (Oct 2, 2013)

Cheyenne said:


> ...think how cool it would be a few generations down the line to have rounder flowers like this but held high on a multifloral stem...



These are called Phalaenopsis hybrids and grow much faster (and give fewer problems) than the slipper equivalent. I like the long, elegant petals of these crosses.

From ehanes7612's sell off a few months back I got some nice philippinense and a Double Grey and just as soon as I can I will cross them. There should be a pleasing mix of pure and mottled whites. I hope to have the cross made some time before my 40th birthday which will be 2018. Maybe I will have the first bloom seedlings before I'm 50. Then again, maybe K-lite will also work miracles for me as it does for Ray and I will see blooms before I'm 45. I'm not really giving any thought to line-breeding.


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## Drorchid (Oct 2, 2013)

Cheyenne said:


> I always wish someone would go further with this breeding. At one point Hadley Cash made Rolfei x bellatulum which was very nice. I can't help but think how cool it would be a few generations down the line to have rounder flowers like this but held high on a multifloral stem. You never know what traits will come out. But most people tell me after the first gen of brachy x roth the plants are mostly sterile. I wonder if converting them to 4N would help. But it seems like no one does that anymore.



We actually did make a 3rd generation cross in this line of breeding...

We had some plants of Paph. Black Lace, which is Paph. Rolfei x Paph. Sierra Lace. We were able to cross Paph. Black Lace onto a Paph. wenshanense. The plants had amazing flowers, very much Brachy influenced, but you could still see the rothschildianum influence too, as the size of the flowers were very big, I would say close in size to a Paph. Rolfei, but much better shaped.

We named it Paph. Jerry Lee Fischer. Here are 3 examples of that cross:












Robert


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## eggshells (Oct 2, 2013)

Those looks nice Robert.


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## NYEric (Oct 2, 2013)

yes.


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## goldenrose (Oct 2, 2013)

Robert- what would the next generation be? back to roth?


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## Drorchid (Oct 2, 2013)

goldenrose said:


> Robert- what would the next generation be? back to roth?



I think unfortunately we have come to a dead end after 3 generations....I have tried breeding with them, but no luck....

Yes, If it would breed, I agree going back to a multifloral would be the way to go, crossing it back to another brachy, would just make it look like any other brachy. Personally, the best cross would be to cross it onto a Paph. Lady Isabel...

Robert


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## Dido (Oct 2, 2013)

great crosses like them all.


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## Scott Ware (Oct 5, 2013)

Justin said:


> Crysrelle crossed back onto roth would be mindblowing.


 
We'll know in about 2 years. Frank made a couple versions of this cross right after Paph. Crystelle got the AQ/AOS. I haven't been able to talk him out of any of those seedlings.


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