# Paph leaf issue, next episode: gratrixianum



## musa (Mar 15, 2021)

Hi, 
my gratrixianum hasent bloomed for 8 years now, therefor I neglected it completely and didn't mind if leaves were getting wet in caring for neighbouring plants. Now by chance I discovered a severe damage. I think It is bacterial infection (acidovorax?).
Should I throw it out right away or try to cure it? Thanks for your oppinion!

upper side of the leaf



and below






habit



black spotting on upper leave side. As these are not described for gratrixianum, are these already signs of infection?
I haven't realized them as they are similar to the spotting of the lower leaf side.


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## Ozpaph (Mar 16, 2021)

spider mites???


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## musa (Mar 17, 2021)

There are definitely no mites on it, I checked it with a microscope, no signs of it, no imago, larvae, egg or olf shells. What I could see is that the brown spots are wet and go on a bit within the parenchyme...

Off topic:
Anybody has an idea what function the usual spotting at the base of the leaves has? There are less to no stomata in that area.


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## Ray (Mar 17, 2021)

I don’t know that this has any connection to any of the issues you’ve experienced, but I was talking to someone recently who has access to a low-magnification microscope, and he was telling me he was able to see all sorts of mites and/or small insects at 50x that were not seen with a 10x loupe.


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## Hardwood (Mar 17, 2021)

this is an excellent source of information about leaf problems.





Orchid Diseases







www.staugorchidsociety.org


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## Ray (Mar 17, 2021)

Hardwood said:


> this is an excellent source of information about leaf problems.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, it absolutely is... But getting a reliable ID by comparing photos with what's in front of you is almost as "iffy" as correctly ID-ing hybrids from their blossoms.


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## musa (Mar 17, 2021)

Ray, I use a stereo microscope with 40 x magnification, that gives already a good view into the cellular structure of a leave, I guess it will be enough to find all sort of mites.

Harwood, thanks for the link, it looks like acidavorax could be right.


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## richgarrison (Mar 17, 2021)

Ray said:


> Yes, it absolutely is... But getting a reliable ID by comparing photos with what's in front of you is almost as "iffy" as correctly ID-ing hybrids from their blossoms.



Ya know.... thanx so much for saying that.. I've been thinking that for years... and get very stressed at not being able to diagnose problems... 

this was soo much easier with 5 plants.. ;-) (but what fun is that!)


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## Brabantia (Mar 18, 2021)

I have the same issue on a Paph. hirsutissimum. I treated with a maceration of powdered cinnamon in iso-propyl alcohol. I wait and see....


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## Ray (Mar 18, 2021)

You can simply add about 15-20 ml powdered cinnamon to a 500ml bottle of isopropanol, wait overnight and filter out the sediment. It gives you a decent bactericide loaded with cinnamaldehyde, which is a mild bactericide and fairly effective fungicide.

If you want a stronger fungicide, use cinnamon leaf oil in alcohol instead - it contains eugenol.


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## werner.freitag (Mar 19, 2021)

Ray, how to apply ? 
is the solution stable ?


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## musa (Mar 22, 2021)

Never heared of connamon leaf oil. Any idea where I can get it?


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## Ray (Mar 22, 2021)

I buy it from Cinnamonvogue.com, but I don’t know where it might be available in Europe. Their stuff originates in Sri Lanka.


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## Ray (Mar 22, 2021)

I just took a look at their website, and they claim the now ship to EU - but I have no idea the cost. A little goes a long way.


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## werner.freitag (Mar 22, 2021)

werner.freitag said:


> Ray, how to apply ?
> is the solution stable ?


any idea?


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## musa (Mar 23, 2021)

Thanks, Ray!


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## Ray (Mar 23, 2021)

Sorry...missed that.

It appears to be very chemically stable, and is sold in a glass bottle with sprayer. I have used the cinnamon leaf oil on both plants (1% in isopropanol - I have never tried it undiluted) and myself (straight from the bottle) to cure a persistent toenail fungus issue, amazing my doctor and dermatologist.


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## werner.freitag (Mar 23, 2021)

thank you, worth trying


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## southernbelle (Mar 23, 2021)

Ray said:


> I don’t know that this has any connection to any of the issues you’ve experienced, but I was talking to someone recently who has access to a low-magnification microscope, and he was telling me he was able to see all sorts of mites and/or small insects at 50x that were not seen with a 10x loupe.


Ray, I concur. I’ve dealt with mites for years on other plants, roses, etc. I’ve never dealt with ones that are barely identifiable at 40 power. Only if I wipe the leaf with a Qtip with alcohol and study the Qtip, then they are squirming so I can see them as insects. A 60x magnifier helps, except it’s so hard to hold it still it’s frustrating. A 10x loupe is pretty worthless for orchids imo.


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## fibre (Mar 28, 2021)

If I have a damage like this I do apply some portions of Amblyseius swirskii, cucumeris and barkeri. And it works. So it must be a sort of Mites, if you see it or not.


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## southernbelle (Mar 28, 2021)

musa said:


> There are definitely no mites on it, I checked it with a microscope, no signs of it, no imago, larvae, egg or olf shells. What I could see is that the brown spots are wet and go on a bit within the parenchyme...
> 
> Off topic:
> Anybody has an idea what function the usual spotting at the base of the leaves has? There are less to no stomata in that area.


What power microscope?
Here is about the best diagnostic with photos of any orchid problem (maybe, but most by far). 


https://www.staugorchidsociety.org/PDF/OrchidPestsandDiseasesbySueBottom.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1iuMYwXjUEUYg5_VWMTIzXTr2OSiy9VZpZbg6scGOmuhXXbcjqEhV2qAA


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## musa (Mar 29, 2021)

southernbelle said:


> What power microscope?
> Here is about the best diagnostic with photos of any orchid problem (maybe, but most by far).
> 
> 
> https://www.staugorchidsociety.org/PDF/OrchidPestsandDiseasesbySueBottom.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1iuMYwXjUEUYg5_VWMTIzXTr2OSiy9VZpZbg6scGOmuhXXbcjqEhV2qAA


It is a 40 x stereo microscope. It is an older model with no possibility of taking fotos, I do it just by taking pictures with a cheap camera through one of the oculars what blurs unfortunately the image and laks the stereo effect. You can see that on the foto.
I think a magnification of 40 x is sufficiant, as the stereo vision gives a much clearer 3D view on things. With a moving light source you also can adjust contrasts giving you different images of whatever you are keen on seeing. With higher magnification the focus range gets narrower, hindering sight. With 40x already you can't focus the surface of the leave and the sunken spots at the same time.

Thanks for the link, it is great.
It seems quite clear now that my problem is acidovorax.


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## Just1more (Apr 26, 2021)

Ray said:


> Sorry...missed that.
> 
> It appears to be very chemically stable, and is sold in a glass bottle with sprayer. I have used the cinnamon leaf oil on both plants (1% in isopropanol - I have never tried it undiluted) and myself (straight from the bottle) to cure a persistent toenail fungus issue, amazing my doctor and dermatologist.


Ray, when you’ve used this to treat toenail fungus, how often did you apply it?


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## Ray (Apr 27, 2021)

2x/day


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