paphiopedilum x cribbii

Paph. villosum and paph. appletonianum are legal. If one crosses villosum with appletonianum, is this hybrid legal in America?

If the parents are legal, then the off-spring are.

thanks P-chan,

Why I don´t have cultural report over :

- x affine
- x aspersum
- x dalatense
- x hermannii
- x cribbii

from the USA

HaKone,
If I understand CITES correctly, any and all slipper orchids are illegal to import or export from the USA. Unless you have the proper paperwork from the government allowing movement of such plants. Even "legal" plants have to have CITES documents to be imported or exported. Permission is very resticted to get legal paperwork.

SlipperKing said:

HaKone,
If I understand CITES correctly, any and all slipper orchids are illegal to import or export from the USA. Unless you have the proper paperwork from the government allowing movement of such plants. Even "legal" plants have to have CITES documents to be imported or exported. Permission is very resticted to get legal paperwork.

Click to expand...

The question is:
- one takes appletonianum (legal in USA) crosses with villosum (legal in USA), one gets x cribbii. Are these x cribbii are legal ?

Legal to import/export?

NYEric said:

Legal to import/export?

Click to expand...

to cultivate and export

The artificial hybrid
between Paph. appletonianum and Paph. villosum
official name Paphiopedilum Talofa, breeded 1997 by Stewart is legal.
The natural hybid Paph. X cribbii is illegal, when you have not the official papers.

Best greetings

Olaf

ORG said:

The artificial hybrid
between Paph. appletonianum and Paph. villosum
official name Paphiopedilum Talofa, breeded 1997 by Stewart is legal.
The natural hybid Paph. X cribbii is illegal, when you have not the official papers.

Best greetings

Olaf

Click to expand...

Hello Olaf,
thank you, can we artificial paph. x talofa and natural paph. x cribbii differentiate ?

The artificial hybrid is Paph Talofa (no 'x'); the natural hybrid (found in nature, not made by people) is Paph x cribbii . Artificail hybrids of legal species is legal. But the possesion of natural hybrids that were not legally exported from the country of origin is illegal.

Kyle

Dear Hakone,
it is impossible to differentiate between both.
But it is a difference if you have a artificial propagated plant or a collected one.
The differences in the names you can find also in other hybrids.
The natural hybrid between micranthum and emersonii has the name Paph. x glanzii, the artificial hybrid the name Paph. Lola Bird.

Best greetings

Olaf

Hello Olaf and Kyle,
summary:

-paphiopedilum Talofa is legal, paph. x cribbii is illegal
-paphiopedilum Lola Bird is legal , paph. x glanzii is illegal


only because of the name

Theoretically speaking, a person would have to have offical papers from both countries, in and out to bring plants to USA. It doesn't matter if it's man-made or natural hybrid. Apparently now there are nuseries that are offically recognized as propagation centers. Where they guaranty their plants are man-made products from legally obtained plants. Which could be a species or a hybrid. This must be true seeing how we have so many In-Charm plants floating a round this country with the new species as parents!
Now for your plant, Paph x cribbii if it where to enter the USA without papers a person would have to change the name to Paph Talofa in order to publicly display it and not get themselves into trouble. Thus, the plant losses it's identity, what value is that?

Hakone said:

Hello Olaf and Kyle,
summary:

-paphiopedilum Talofa is legal, paph. x cribbii is illegal
-paphiopedilum Lola Bird is legal , paph. x glanzii is illegal


only because of the name

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It is not only because of the name.

Since x cribbii is a natural hybrid, all plants of it in cultivation are, by necessity, collected from the wild. You can't "make" a natural hybrid. Thus, x cribbii would always be illegal to import into the United States due to the Lacey Act and our interpretation of CITES. This is the case for all natural hybrids in the genera Paphiopedilum and Phragmipedium.

:evil: It is best to ignore them, (USFWS & Lacey Act) if you pay attention to them it only encourages them. :evil:

Hakone said:

Hello Olaf,
thank you, can we artificial paph. x talofa and natural paph. x cribbii differentiate ?

Click to expand...

The man-made Paph. Talofa is different than the natural hybrid Paph. x cribbii. This is true for most man made versus natural hybrids (for instance the man made hybrid Paph. Conco-bellautlum is different compared to Paph. wenshanense fka Paph x conco-bellatulum), they will be both genetically and morphologically different from one another.

The reason is that man made primary hybrids are exactly 50% one parent and 50% the other parent. Natural hybrids can be a number of things:
1. they too can be 50% one parent and 50% the other parent (In this case it is hard to distinguish the man-made versus the natural hybrid).
2. They can have become a separate isolated population (separated from both original parents)and bred with one another (natural hybrid x natural hybrid), but over time you get segregation and selection for certain characteristics, so they do not look identical to the original natural hybrid. Over time they can even become a separate species. (This is one of the theories of how new species come into existence). In my mind comes Paph ang-thong. People are still uncertain about the status of this plant (some consider it a variety of Paph. godefroyae and others consider it a natural hybrid). In my opinion it is a natural hybrid between Paph. godefroyae and Paph. niveum that has become separated over time.
3. They can outcross back to either parent. This occurs when both parents and the natural hybrid grow in the same area. So you get Natural Hybrid x Parent A or Natural Hybrid x Parent B, or Natural Hybrid x Natural Hybrid. The outcome will still be called a Natural Hybrid (even though within the population you will have different genetic backgrounds; some may be 10% Parent A and 90% Parent B, some 50 % Parent A and 50% Parent B, some 90% Parent A and 10% Parent B etc etc). An example would be Paph. wenshanense. This is why some plants of Paph. wenshanense look more like Paph. concolor, while other plants of Paph. wenshanense look more like Paph. bellatulum.

I think situation 3 occurs most often.

Robert

Hello Robert,
thank you

Drorchid said:

The man-made Paph. Talofa is different than the natural hybrid Paph. x cibbii. This is true for most man made versus natural hybrids (for instance Paph. Conco-bellautlum is different compared to Paph. wenshanense fka Paph x conco-bellatulum), they will be both genetically and morphologically different from one another.

The reason is that man made primary hybrids are exactly 50% one parent and 50% the other parent. Natural hybrids can be a number of things:
1. they too can be 50% one parent and 50% the other parent (In this case it is hard to distinguish the man-made versus the natural hybrid).
2. They can have become a separate isolated population (separated from both original parents)and bred with one another (natural hybrid x natural hybrid), but over time you get segregation and selection for certain characteristics, so they do not look identical to the original natural hybrid. Over time they can even become a separate species. (This is one of the theories of how new species come into existence). In my mind comes Paph ang-thong. People are still uncertain about the status of this plant (some consider it a variety of Paph. godefroyae and others consider it a natural hybrid). In my opinion it is a natural hybrid between Paph. godefroyae and Paph. niveum that has become separated over time.
3. They can outcross back to either parent. This occurs when both parents and the natural hybrid grow in the same area. So you get Natural Hybrid x Parent A or Natural Hybrid x Parent B, or Natural Hybrid x Natural Hybrid. The outcome will still be called a Natural Hybrid (even though within the population you will have different genetic backgrounds; some may be 10% Parent A and 90% Parent B, some 50 % Parent A and 50% Parent B, some 90% Parent A and 10% Parent B etc etc). An example would be Paph. wenshanense. This is why some plants of Paph. wenshanense look more like Paph. concolor, while other plants of Paph. wenshanense look more like Paph. bellatulum.

I think situation 3 occurs most often.

Robert

Click to expand...

Just to add that this problem is not specific to the slippers... I'm working on correct identifications of the Brazilian Catasetums... and the same problems occur there with respect to overlapping populations. To make matters even worse... the Catasetums produce male, female [very different in appearance], and hermaphroditic flowers... sometimes on different spikes on the same plant.

I agree that most wild occuring Paph species are actually in a state of minor change... affected mostly by their adaptation to their environment... and influences from other species pollen carried by pollinators within their area.

One sure way to determine what is what with regard to species is to self pollenate the flower... raise a swarm of it's seedlings to flowering size... and look for differences in the resulting flowers. If they all look the same... probably a 'pure' species... or if there are significant differences in the results... most likely a 'natural occuring hybrid'.
I hope this is not too confusing... Curtis.

Welcome to the forum Curtis. Thanks for the info as well.

Yes Curtis, welcome to the forum! And I agree with your statements!

Robert