Hey, Ernie. It bloomed.

ncart · Oct 24, 2009

Paphiopedilum primulinum fma. flavum (‘Flutter’ X ‘Surprise’)

I think the 2nd growth is going to have a spike.

NYEric · Oct 25, 2009

Thanx for sharing.

SelectOrchids · Oct 25, 2009

With this type of leaves, sorry but that's a Pinocchio... Primulinum has more "skinny" dark green leaves with different veins. On those leaves we easily can see the influence of glaucophyllum...

biothanasis · Oct 25, 2009

Very beautiful!

Hakone · Oct 25, 2009

that's a chamberlainianum var. primulinum

SelectOrchids · Oct 25, 2009

Hakone said:
that's a chamberlainianum var. primulinum

Quite not, that's glaucophyllum x primulinum, better known as Pinocchio, selfed a couple of time... like most primulinums around. Even many plants coming from Indonesia are in fact Pinnochio linebred. Primulinum is very rare in the wild, in fact, there are no sure primulinum coming from the wild for the last 10-15 years.

On the other side, one very large pot-plant nursery from Bandung bought a lot of Pinnochio from the Netherlands in flask quite a bit of years ago. They are growing nicely, but they are not very well cared of, in growing beds on the ground. That's the source of many 'primulinum' sold from Indonesia for at least 15 years if not more. The original primulinums had beefy shiny dark green leaves, quite narrow. Quite a few had 10-15cm x 1cm leaves in fact.

One man working as a trader for the Eric Young Foundation sold to many very famous breeders, including in California, a lot of Pinnochio under the name of Primulinum select, or primulinum 4n. That's the same guy who sold a few dozen division of roth Mt. Millais in less than 5 years, to assess his reliability. Many of those fake primulinums foudn their way in the breeding programs of many nurseries worldwide.

SlipperKing · Oct 25, 2009

I'm in agreement with Sanderianum. After looking in a one of old books, this is not primulinum. Reflexing dorsal, incomplete twisting of the petals, staminode flat across the bottom side without the center tooth. I can also remember leaves being as Sanderianum discribes, including wavey as well.

Hakone · Oct 25, 2009

Paphiopedilum chamberlainianum forma primulinum var. falvum FOWLIE , Orchid Digest 37:104; 1973

please see:

Genus Paphiopedilum Albino Forms - Olaf Gruss - page 153

Paphiopedilum glaucophyllum var. moquetteanum forma flavoviride

SelectOrchids · Oct 25, 2009

Hakone said:
Paphiopedilum chamberlainianum forma primulinum var. falvum FOWLIE , Orchid Digest 37:104; 1973

please see:

Genus Paphiopedilum Albino Forms - Olaf Gruss - page 153

Paphiopedilum glaucophyllum var. moquetteanum forma flavoviride

glaucophyllum album and moquetteanum are fakes.

glaucophyllum album was made by a man whose first name is Mike T. from England, he actually made another scam with the rothschildianum album sold to Japan. I got amongst the first flasks ever released, and quite a few flowered typical of Pinocchio... Now after a couple of generation maybe they have solved the problem, but glaucophyllum album has never been found.

For moquetteanum album I have been amongst the first to get "divisions" and selfed it, when the selfings bloomed it was definitely another scam. The original plant came from a nursery dealing in pot-plant actually, who claimed they had that "jungle plant" from the ancient time.

So far in the strange things from that group, apart from primulinum that is albinistic, the real things ever found were :

- liemianum album. Dead, no progeny, beautiful flowers actually, I saw it in Indonesia few years ago...

- victoria-mariae album. In Japan, no selfing, single unique plant

- chamberlainianum blue, with a blue cattleya pouch.

All those moquetteanum, glaucophyllum, etc... album are simply fake ones...

Ernie · Oct 25, 2009

Okay, a challenge then... Who has pix of REAL primulinum flowers and leaves. I can see where Xavier is coming from since prim fma purpurascens does have narrow, thick leaves, but EVERY prim (flavum) I've ever seen is like this. Seems the market is overrun with Pinocchios. Who's lying now little wooden boy?

-Ernie

SelectOrchids · Oct 25, 2009

Ernie said:
Okay, a challenge then... Who has pix of REAL primulinum flowers and leaves. I can see where Xavier is coming from since prim fma purpurascens does have narrow, thick leaves, but EVERY prim (flavum) I've ever seen is like this. Seems the market is overrun with Pinocchios. Who's lying now little wooden boy?

-Ernie

Yes, the primulinum plants and even flower shape originally looked very similar to the purpurascens, apart from the uniform green color. I ll try to dig up a picture of a real primulinum in the coming days, but so far I have seen real ones only very few times, and always very old plants - including one of the original ones that was still alive at Marcel Lecoufle place, used to make the first Pinnochio. Narrow very dark green a bit rough leaves...

Nearly all the plants in the trade are the fake Pinnochio... When the fake primulinum entered the market, the real genuine ones were far less appealing - but very fragrant, as are all the real primulinum... though some hybrids carry that, but at least, if the flower is not fragrant, it is absolutely sure it is not a primulinum. So most growers sold their "crappy" primulinum to simply breed and sell the "selected primulinum". Big mess.

Same thing happened with callosum sanderae, and lawrenceanum hyeanum. So far, I have seen only 1 genuine lawrenceanum hyeanum. Tradition is an hybrid, as are all the lawrencenum hyeanum in the teade. Same for curtisii sanderae and superbiens sanderae, they are from a Dutch pot-plant nursery originally, breeding things like Gowerianum, Goultenianum... and that eventually had some plants whose flowers came close to those rare albino species.

SlipperFan · Oct 25, 2009

Interesting discussion. And disconcerting!

Yoyo_Jo · Oct 25, 2009

What do you think of this one? I was told it was the real deal.

Paph. primulinum (‘Green Elf’ x ‘Hsingyin’)

Yoyo_Jo · Oct 25, 2009

Here's the plant:

And for comparison, here's the plant side by side with my Pinocchio (in bud

)

ncart · Oct 25, 2009

SlipperFan said:
Interesting discussion. And disconcerting!

Thank you. I like the flower. I am keeping it as Paphiopedilum primulinum fma. flavum (‘Flutter’ X ‘Surprise’)

goldenrose · Oct 26, 2009

SlipperFan said:
Interesting discussion. And disconcerting!

Isn't it though! I'm wondering what mine is?

It's from Antec & is a somewhat smallish plant.

rdhed · Oct 26, 2009

Seems we have had this same discussion.
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1492&highlight=royal+horticulture+society

--Allen--

Bob in Albany N.Y. · Oct 26, 2009

I'm a little confused. Truthfully, a few weeks ago I purchased a group of paphs. In that group where 2 that were labeled as pinocchio. One bloomed out like this:
http://www.slipperorchids.info/paphdatasheets/cochlopetalum/primulinum/PaphPinocchio.jpg

This is what I had expected. Then the other one bloomed out like the one we are all discussing here. Truthfully, I thought it was mislabeled and replaced the label with primulinum var. flavin.

How could they both be pinocchio's and look so differently?

SlipperFan · Oct 26, 2009

Maybe some were made with primulinum (flavum) and the others with var. purpuratum?

Ernie · Oct 27, 2009

Bob in Albany said:
I'm a little confused. Truthfully, a few weeks ago I purchased a group of paphs. In that group where 2 that were labeled as pinocchio. One bloomed out like this:
http://www.slipperorchids.info/paphdatasheets/cochlopetalum/primulinum/PaphPinocchio.jpg

This is what I had expected. Then the other one bloomed out like the one we are all discussing here. Truthfully, I thought it was mislabeled and replaced the label with primulinum var. flavin.

How could they both be pinocchio's and look so differently?

IMO... The one you show, Bob, is a Pinocchio that I think was actually made with moquettianum (ex. glaucophyllum var. moquettianum). I'm guessing this because of the general shape and more so, the dorsal sepal. This is now considered Paph. Cloud's Prime Crystal (moquettianum X primulinum) since the RHS has since teased out moquettianum from glaucophyllum. Whether it's a true Pinocchio (glaucophyllum X primulinum) or a Cloud's Prime Crystal, you can potentially get albino plants. Primulinum seems to be pretty strong for passing on albinism. Maybe Robert Q can give us the stats on exactly how strong. Or Dot's suggestion that a prim pur was used could also be true to give colored progeny.

The other thread mentioned and linked back to Matt Gore's picture thread was more on the use of a form/variety name for the albino version of primulinum. Since the albino form was the type for the species, properly no var/fma is used to designate it. However, paph primulinum forma purpurascens is used to denote the colored form. Again, as far as I know (could be dated info). BUT, many sellers (us included) specifically mention, in some way, that a primulinum is albino simply to avert a barrage of inquiries... are your primulinum (or Pinocchio

) albino or pink?

-Ernie

Hey, Ernie. It bloomed.

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