Paphiopedilum hangianum

Kavanaru · Jun 13, 2010

This is a first bloomer. The flower has some deformities which I hope are correct for the next blooming (there is a second flower coming on this spike and a second spike growing too). Not the best shape as it is right now, the petals could also be wider, and the color pattern is not very symetric... however, I think the color of this plant is reason enough to keep it and wait for improvements in the coming years

John Boy · Jun 13, 2010

I hate to say this, but: that's not a hanginanum, it seems (hence the colour freakin'out), that there's something or someone else in there as well. Looks like a micrathum-type-pattern colouration to me....

Also the second flower/bud looks suspiciously like a micrathum trait…

PS: Any chance to see the rest of this plant? I'm wondering what these leafs look like.

Kavanaru · Jun 13, 2010

John Boy, I also have my doubts about this plant as the staminode does not look 100% like hangianum to me...

as for micranthum, I would discard it, as it would be the first Paph Paphiopedilum hangianum with plain green leave I would have seen.

The plant has plain green leave, which makes me discard that this is a primary hibrid with any other Parvi or Brachy.

John Boy · Jun 13, 2010

Ramón,
I'd be verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrryyyyy careful with that sort of thing. I have seen Glauria Naugle in flower looking like small rothschildianums just by seeing the leafs. I'm sort of unsure if the micrathum leaf-pattern has to be visible in every Hybrid all the time. I have a strong feeling that this doesn't have to the case... But as you say: it would be easier to accept if the pattern would be present... Maybe the others have better ideas.

likespaphs · Jun 13, 2010

i was wondering if it has primulinum in it.

PaphMadMan · Jun 13, 2010

Interesting color/pattern. I haven't had they chance to see hangianum hybrids in person, but my first impression was something like hangianum x Ma Belle.

Jorch · Jun 13, 2010

Could it be Paph Alexej (hangianum x roth)? Of the pictures of hangianum x primulinum available on the web, the petals are not dark colored like Ramon's plant. just my guess

It's definitely a keeper for that color though!

Kavanaru · Jun 13, 2010

ok, here more info about this plant. In theory, it should come from the same or similar batch of hangianum as this one: http://www.popow-orchids.com/module...11&cPath=27051&showpage=3&new=0&location_id=5 )I say in theory, as it was only told to me by the owner of the nursery, but it is not written on the label)

as for hangianumxprimulinum, I have seen many of these plants and they all look different than this flower. Petals are more like "foxhound ears", somehow similar to Golddollar too. and the leve are also completely different.

Please note that the "pseudo-patterns" on the leave are actually a problem I satarted having since I changed to MSU, and which I have not been able to control yet.

paphioland · Jun 13, 2010

Hang x Roth is my opinion

John Boy · Jun 13, 2010

just what I thought!

Many thanks for these pictures. I've spent the last 20 seconds 2 inches away from the screen with my nose. Most of these leafs are slim enough, and have enough pattern (for me),...for me to uphold my initial micrathum idea. Seeing the more or less entire plant, and the tall spike I'd say micrathum or a strong micrathum primary hybrid...

The only thing that is holding me back is: from a simple hangianum x micrathum (gut-feeling!) I'd have expected a more V-shape staminoid disc, not a flat one, as a delenatii would leave the offsprings with.

John M · Jun 13, 2010

I love it! This is very beautiful; but, it's not pure hangianum. It looks exactly like what I would expect to see from a cross of Harold Koopowitz and hangianum. Check out the photos of Harold Koopowitz on the web and compare the staminode with that of hangianum. The staminode of this flower is intermediate.....so is the rest of the flower. Presumably, a nice, dark hangianum was used to cross with a Harold Koopowitz to get that nice, rich colour in the petals.

It basically looks like an improved Harold Koopowitz, (rounder shape, richer colours), which is what you'd expect a good hangianum parent to do when crossed with HK.

John Boy · Jun 13, 2010

Hmmmm, interesting.

John, I hear what you say, but have an idea (no idea on what base) that H.K. x hangianum should (or would) mean darker leafs and a bulkier, bigger plant...possibly with much wider leafs. Also, but that's just me again...I'd be expecting much bigger flower from H.K. x hangianum.

Kavanaru · Jun 13, 2010

John Boy said:
just what I thought!

Many thanks for these pictures. I've spent the last 20 seconds 2 inches away from the screen with my nose. Most of these leafs are slim enough, and have enough pattern (for me),...for me to uphold my initial micrathum idea. Seeing the more or less entire plant, and the tall spike I'd say micrathum or a strong micrathum primary hybrid...

The only thing that is holding me back is: from a simple hangianum x micrathum (gut-feeling!) I'd have expected a more V-shape staminoid disc, not a flat one, as a delenatii would leave the offsprings with.

John, as I said, those patterns in the leave has apperaed just recently when I changed to MSU. I have the same problem in most of my other Paphs. They were not there 6 months ago. In that case, you can really trust me that this plant has plain green leave!

As you said, teh stami of Liberty Taiwan looks different: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28895012@N08/4453780074/

John M · Jun 13, 2010

John Boy said:
Hmmmm, interesting.

John, I hear what you say, but have an idea (no idea on what base) that H.K. x hangianum should (or would) mean darker leafs and a bulkier, bigger plant...possibly with much wider leafs. I don't feel the leaf colour is off. From what I've seen of hangianums, they are normally a grass green, not as dark as this foliage. In fact, this foliage looks pretty dark to me; but, maybe that's just my computer screen? Also, I think that the leaf size and shape depends a lot on the clones used in the breeding. If roth 'Rex' had been use, the offspring would be monstrous! If 'Commander' had been use, the offspring would be very compact. Plus, even though malipoense has relatively wide leaves, roth and hangianum have more strap shaped leaves that are more succulent. The leaves in the photo look about right for me.Also, but that's just me again...I'd be expecting much bigger flower from H.K. x hangianum. 'Not sure why you are saying that. We haven't been told the size of this flower. You can't accurately tell the size of a flower by looking at a 2 dimentional photo with no ruler for reference.

..

Kavanaru · Jun 13, 2010

hangianumx roth... hhmm... coloration would be as expected, however, I recall longer petals on that hybrids, and taller spikes too

Kavanaru · Jun 13, 2010

John M, the leave are actually grass green (and I insist, with no pattern, except the problem caused after using MSU!)

the flowers are 12 cm wide (4.7" NS)

John M · Jun 13, 2010

Kavanaru said:
John M, the leave are actually grass green (and I insist, with no pattern, except the problem caused after using MSU!) That means the pattern is there - genetically, it's just hidden by the normal amount of chlorophyl. When the production of chlorophyl is thwarted, the pattern shows through. The fact that this plant has a slight pattern (even though it is normally hidden from our eyes), supports the idea that it's got malipoense as a grand parent.

the flowers are 12 cm wide (4.7" NS) Thanks. That's a good size and again, it falls within what I'd expect from a hang x HK hybrid.

Also, notice that the pouch on your flower has a slight pointed up rim right in the front. HK hybrids have a much more pronounced "point" in the same place. I bet Popow Orchids records will show that he was making crosses with a HK at the same time that he crossed his two hangianums. Unfortunately, he got some HK pollen onto the toothpick that was supposed to have only hangianum pollen on it. It would be very interesting to know if Popow could confirm that he made HK crosses at the same time as this hangianum (red x red), cross.

..

John Boy · Jun 13, 2010

I’m getting your point John. Regarding the size issue:
I agree, you are right! We haven’t been given the flower dimensions before. I have used the wire, clip and wooden-stick to arrive at my judgement, which is not very professional, I admit. On that base the flower does/would appear small, even in hangianum terms.
The first time I have ever seen a Harold Koopowitz I nearly passed out because of is enormity. I do know that H.K. hybrids do pass on the “big flower gens”…

John M · Jun 13, 2010

Kavanaru said:
hangianumx roth... hhmm... coloration would be as expected, however, I recall longer petals on that hybrids, and taller spikes too

I disagree with this statment....sorry. Roth primary crosses typically take on the background colour of the other parent....and they retain the striping of the roth parent. Think of bright yellow Dollgoldi, or bright pink Gloria Naugle, or medium pink Delrosi, or honey coloured Lady Isabel, etc. So, I don't think that this is a primary with roth only. Along with roth as a grand parent, I think a particularly dark malipoense is a grand parent and a particularly well coloured hangianum is a parent.

Kavanaru · Jun 13, 2010

John M, I understand what you say, however teh pattern you see there is more a problem with nutrition. similar to what you see in the pictures below (two primary hybrids, species involved: Paph. helenae, Paph charlesworthii and Paph gratrixianum - none ofthem have patterned leave) I also have the same "chlorotic pattern" in two Cattleyas. And though, I would never say these are species with "hidden" pattern.

as for the hangianumxroth color patterned, I said "as expected" as it is the color of the 3 Paph Alexej I have seen. I am not very much into hybridization of Paphiopediul, therefore I do not knoe what is normally to be expected from roth, however, I know what I have seen...

Paphiopedilum hangianum

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