A pet peeve of mine...

Slippertalk Orchid Forum

Help Support Slippertalk Orchid Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
O

Orchidzrule

Guest
...is mislabelled plants. The following was entered in our show as Paph Claire de Lune X Paph Van Belle (click on thumbnail for larger view):

MOS 2010 Show Pictures 044 (Small).jpg

Now, according to Orchid Wiz, there is no such thing as Paph Van Belle (or Bell), but there is a Paph Claire de Lune 'Edgard Van Belle'. I'm not totally certain this is it, but I suppose it *could* be. The colors are right for this old cultivar, but I'm not familar with it except through a few photos. As a result, I'm looking for confirmation or refutation. Thoughts?

The plant was entered by a fairly new grower, who I believe had originally purchased it from another club member. If so, there are probably a number of these mislabelled plants kicking around in my OS. I'd really like to put a proper name on it. My interest isn't purely academic--I admired the plant and the grower was kind enough to give me a division when she made it into three plants after it had finished blooming.

Cheers,

Rob
 
I totally agree with you!!

Here is a picture of our Paph. Claire de Lune 'Edgard van Belle' AM/AOS for comparison:

PaphClaireDeLune-Close-up8399.jpg


Robert
 
There would be a Paph. Rex Van Delden available….but I think we can very safely exclude that one from consideration to have been used (though….I would do it! Claire de Lune x Rex Van Delden…that would be an idea!)…. :drool::drool::drool:
 
Well at least it was reasonnably close and you had a picture. I write the newsletter for Les Orchidophiles de Montréal and sometimes I do scratch my head trying to confirm the names written free hand for the plants on the show table. I couldn't figure out some of them if it wasn't for OrchidWiz. :)
 
perhaps it is just the grower shortening the name so it would fit on to the tag
 
I have seen a multitude of labels written in ink that has faded by the sun or pencil that has been smudged or gotten so dirty that it's illegible. I've also seen lots of poor handwriting, akin to what I frequently see on doctor's prescriptions (okay, bad joke). There are all sorts of reasons why plants become "amnesia victims" or mis-identified over the years. My guess is that this one now has a correct identification.
 
My guess is that this one now has a correct identification.

I totally disagree. This one is NOT pure Clair du Lune and who knows if Clair du Lune is a parent. As in Robert's photo, Clair du Lune is very "hefty" and has a slight olive cast to the green colour. This flower looks a lot more like Maudiae than Clair du Lune. It's not "hefty" in form and it's got that typical apple green colour of Maudiae alba.....not to mention a very Maudiae-like flaring dorsal sepal shape. It's a very attractive NoID. Sorry. Now that you know the tag is wrong, you'll just have to accept it as a NoID. There is no way you can definitively figure this one out. To choose a name, put that on the tag and pretend thereafter that's what it is, would be perpetuating the very thing that is your pet peeve.
 
I totally disagree. This one is NOT pure Clair du Lune and who knows if Clair du Lune is a parent. As in Robert's photo, Clair du Lune is very "hefty" and has a slight olive cast to the green colour. This flower looks a lot more like Maudiae than Clair du Lune. It's not "hefty" in form and it's got that typical apple green colour of Maudiae alba.....not to mention a very Maudiae-like flaring dorsal sepal shape. It's a very attractive NoID. Sorry. Now that you know the tag is wrong, you'll just have to accept it as a NoID. There is no way you can definitively figure this one out. To choose a name, put that on the tag and pretend thereafter that's what it is, would be perpetuating the very thing that is your pet peeve.
A poor blooming couldn't be the cause of the differences?
 
A poor blooming couldn't be the cause of the differences?

IMO, no. I've owned and grown Clair du Lune 'Edgard Van Belle' and I've bloomed out hundreds of alba Maudiaes and Maudiae-types of various related breeding. Nothing had the same look as the Clair du Lune. Whether the Clair du Lune flowers were produced on a LARGE specimen plant, or a single or double growth division, they could've never been mistaken for a Maudiae. Clair du Lune 'EVB' is really quite distinctive in the subtleties of it's appearance. Robert's photo is of a correctly named division of this famous plant.
 
I totally disagree. This one is NOT pure Clair du Lune and who knows if Clair du Lune is a parent. As in Robert's photo, Clair du Lune is very "hefty" and has a slight olive cast to the green colour. This flower looks a lot more like Maudiae than Clair du Lune. It's not "hefty" in form and it's got that typical apple green colour of Maudiae alba.....not to mention a very Maudiae-like flaring dorsal sepal shape. It's a very attractive NoID. Sorry. Now that you know the tag is wrong, you'll just have to accept it as a NoID. There is no way you can definitively figure this one out. To choose a name, put that on the tag and pretend thereafter that's what it is, would be perpetuating the very thing that is your pet peeve.

IMO, no. I've owned and grown Clair du Lune 'Edgard Van Belle' and I've bloomed out hundreds of alba Maudiaes and Maudiae-types of various related breeding. Nothing had the same look as the Clair du Lune. Whether the Clair du Lune flowers were produced on a LARGE specimen plant, or a single or double growth division, they could've never been mistaken for a Maudiae. Clair du Lune 'EVB' is really quite distinctive in the subtleties of it's appearance. Robert's photo is of a correctly named division of this famous plant.

You are convincing me it's not Claire de Lune 'Edgard Van Belle' but your reasoning that it's not any kind of Claire de Lune is quite simply, wrong. You are confusing the lack of variation expected in a division/cultivar/clone (in this case Claire de Lune 'EVB'), with the considerably more expected variation in a grex (in this case Claire de Lune).

Claire de Lune is a cross of Emerald and Alma Gevaert. Both of these are half Maudiae. Alma Gevaert is the result of Maudiae crossed back to its parent lawrencianum, while Emerald is the result of a cross with curtisii. There is, thus, quite a bit of potential genetic diversity in a cross of Alma Gevaert & Emerald. Just as you & your siblings are not identical, neither are all non-vegetatively produced Claire de Lune plants. Indeed, there is no guarantee all Claire de Lunes would necessarily even be albas. (Although I've never seen a photo of a non-alba Claire de Lune.) To claim this is not a Claire de Lune, because you think it's not Claire de Lune 'EVB', is flawed reasoning, at best.

But I'll end this with a question. You stated above "Now that you know the tag is wrong, you'll just have to accept it as a NOID". Why will I have to "accept" this? On the contrary, I will do my best to find the original source of the plant, and, ideally, see the original tag. It may not be possible, but I'm going to try.
 
Standing in front of a heard of 5000 sheep, shouting for „Jack!!!“ I don’t fell confident to be able to identify "Jack" by the colour of his top hair, or by waiting for his reply. Granted, I could be separating all the rams, and start asking individually “Sorry mate, but are you Jack?”, but I have a feeling that wouldn’t be working either….:poke:
 
You are convincing me it's not Claire de Lune 'Edgard Van Belle' but your reasoning that it's not any kind of Claire de Lune is quite simply, wrong. That is your opinion. It is not necessarily true; but, you are entitled to your opinion, of course. To be clear; sure, I could be wrong; but, I don't think so. My experience tells me that I'm probably correct. However, if you have more experience than I, then, maybe you are correct; but, so far, I'm not seeing evidence of that. So far, I'm only seeing an argument that I might be wrong, not proof that you are right. You are confusing the lack of variation expected in a division/cultivar/clone (in this case Claire de Lune 'EVB'), with the considerably more expected variation in a grex (in this case Claire de Lune).
I'm not confusing anything, actually. I've been in orchids for a lo-ooong time and Paphs have been my genus of choice for the whole time. As a result, part of my opinion is based on what I know of people and the ignorant and crazy things that they do to name tags(!), which of course, is the thing that motivated you to start this thread. A plant that is labelled "Paph Claire de Lune X Paph Van Belle" says to me that someone who was not very knowledgeable "gave" that plant the name, because to them, it looked the same.....without even realizing that they have mistakenly used a clonal name as a parental name. Nobody who knows what they're talking about and has a piece of Clair de Lune 'Edgard Van Belle' in their collection would ever write the tag as "Paph Claire de Lune X Paph Van Belle". So, my educated guess is that an inexperienced person "put" that name on the plant because it was their best guess.

A matter of fact is that green Maudiae type Paphs have been produced in massive quantities for the pot plant trade and sold without names or with incorrect ones for years and years. A LOT of dubiously identified green Paphs have been imported from Holland for our North American disposable pot plant market. It is reasonable to think that an orchid enthusiast has at some point purchased one (a NoID) and then wanted to have a name for it. Since there are way more green Paphs out there that are Maudiae based breeding (without the very dominant curtisii in the family tree), odds are that this NoID plant, which looks like a Maudiae hybrid (without the dose of curtisii), is a Maudiae hybrid (without a dose of curtisii). In keeping with John Boy's farm animal theme :)rollhappy:).....if if looks like a duck and quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, it probably is a duck! This looks like a Maudiae type hybrid that does not have curtisii as close as a grand parent....but, what hybrid??????....who knows.


Claire de Lune is a cross of Emerald and Alma Gevaert. Both of these are half Maudiae. Alma Gevaert is the result of Maudiae crossed back to its parent lawrencianum, while Emerald is the result of a cross with curtisii. There is, thus, quite a bit of potential genetic diversity in a cross of Alma Gevaert & Emerald. Yes; but, the contribution of curtisii wouldn't be completely absent....it is too distinctive. Just as you & your siblings are not identical, neither are all non-vegetatively produced Claire de Lune plants. However, since all Clair du Lune plants have curtisii as a grand parent, I believe that more curtisii would be evident in the offspring. Indeed, there is no guarantee all Claire de Lunes would necessarily even be albas. Of course not. For the purposes of this conversation/debate, we are only talking about alba breeding....eg. white/green versions of each species. (Although I've never seen a photo of a non-alba Claire de Lune.) To claim this is not a Claire de Lune, because you think it's not Claire de Lune 'EVB', is flawed reasoning, at best. I'm not saying that it's not CdL because it's not the 'EVB' clone; I'm saying I don't think it's CdL because I don't see enough evidence of curtisii and I'm seeing too much evidence of callosum (one of the parents of Maudiae). It looks more like Holdenii (Maudiae x callosum), than Clair du Lune; but of course, I couldn't say that definitively either. It's easier to say what something is NOT, than it is to say what something IS and I don't think that this is Clair du Lune; but, what is it?....I don't really know....and neither do you....unless you do track down the original plant and find that there is a reasonable explanation about the screwed up name label......and that you can then figure out what the correct name label was supposed to be. This is not likely to happen....thus, my comment that you will have to be content with this as a NoID.

But I'll end this with a question. You stated above "Now that you know the tag is wrong, you'll just have to accept it as a NOID". Why will I have to "accept" this? On the contrary, I will do my best to find the original source of the plant, and, ideally, see the original tag. It may not be possible, but I'm going to try. Right! If you do manage to do this, and you are able to dicipher the tag and learn the correct name, you should then have the correct identification. However, I'm not about to make a bet that you will be successful at tracking down this information. Odds are stacked against you; but, as you say, it's worth a try. You never know, you might get lucky. Good luck. It's always nice to get a mistake corrected and give a nice NoID plant its correct name.
..
 
Last edited:
.... It's easier to say what something is NOT, than it is to say what something IS and I don't think that this is Clair du Lune; but, what is it?....I don't really know....and neither do you....unless you do track down the original plant and find that there is a reasonable explanation about the screwed up name label......and that you can then figure out what the correct name label was supposed to be. This is not likely to happen....thus, my comment that you will have to be content with this as a NoID..
I absolutely second these words!!
You can be sure to name it rightly not before you'll find its origin - and that's very hard, nearly impossible.
In all other cases a name on the tag doesn't say more than no name on the tag (NOID).
 
That's a lovely blue point avatar you have, but peeves do make excellent pets. You can stroke and feed them as much as you want, then just forget about them for weeks at a time.

My experience with pet peeves is that they gnaw at you all the time. They wake you up in the middle of the night and stop you from getting back to sleep! They raise their ugly heads at any time of day and can ruin a perfectly good moment. ....And yet, they are there for us at a moment's notice. When we need to indulge in our pet peeve, they are always ready and willing to make and appearance and perform for us! A pet peeve is a lifelong commitment.:wink:
 
My experience with pet peeves is that they gnaw at you all the time. They wake you up in the middle of the night and stop you from getting back to sleep! They raise their ugly heads at any time of day and can ruin a perfectly good moment. ....And yet, they are there for us at a moment's notice. When we need to indulge in our pet peeve, they are always ready and willing to make and appearance and perform for us! A pet peeve is a lifelong commitment.:wink:

One can become obsessed with any pets. But at least the health department won't condemn your house for too many peeves, and they rarely leave a mess on the carpet. No shots are required, and licensing costs are low too.
 
Back
Top