After 40 years - rethinking my place in the world of orchids

[Tony]

When the people who are supposed to be recruiting new members won't speak to anyone younger than 60 that doesn't bode well for the future of the organization lol

 

[big923cattleya]

I agree.
I have a woman here who says I am being unfair by buying 10 raffle tickets two weeks ago, I had seven winners! Some other lady said that Bill, me, is so sweet because I gave away the other six winners after picking a plant for myself.
The woman steadfastly refused to agree! I am unfair, period. Meanwhile she does not buy any extra raffle tickets. You get a free ticket when you wear your membership badge!
In her mind, I buy 10 tickets for $10 but if I win more then once, I am being unfair!! Oh brother!!

 

[tnyr5]

Luckily, the societies to which I belong are very congenial. Heck, at one, we like each other so much that our auction plants rarely sell for more than $12 because we don't like to bid against each other lol.

 

[Tom Reddick]

Original reply deleted now that I see where this was specific exchange was headed.

 

[Rob in Puyallup]

I've been in the background reading posts in Slippertalk for several years now. I started growing orchids when I was fourteen, nearly 50 years ago. I live in the Pacific Northwest about 30 miles south of Seattle. All those years ago we had several well established orchid growers in the area. Beall's Orchids on Vashon Island was famous for it's paphs, miltonias (miltoniopsis now), cymbidiums and other genera. Tacoma, my home town about 10 miles away from where I live now served as the PNW Regional Judging Center. Well known judges Gary Baker and Wil Chantry (owners of Baker and Chantry Orchids in Woodinville), Maurice Powers, Jim and Ken Woolery, Carl Montgomery amongst a host of others were active participants in the Tacoma Orchid Society (and the associated "Species Club" and "The Seedlings" (a club for the younger growers which I became the first "president") Maurice Powers was our mentor. Orchids seemed so much more exotic way back then, growers had passion, wanted to share their knowledge and trade plants, the orchid shows a huge production. Gone now is that passion, those judges and the knowledge of those days seems to have faded. Shows are no longer the huge production that they used to be. Now they're small displays the sellers put up, most of the space left for plants looking to be sold.

I miss all that. I especially miss all of those great people!

Coincidentally... Today I received a message on FB saying that the Tacoma Orchid Society disbanded on Dec 31, 2022.

I've been in the background reading posts in Slippertalk for several years now. I started growing orchids when I was fourteen, nearly 50 years ago. I live in the Pacific Northwest about 30 miles south of Seattle. All those years ago we had several well established orchid growers in the area. Beall's Orchids on Vashon Island was famous for it's paphs, miltonias (miltoniopsis now), cymbidiums and other genera. Tacoma, my home town about 10 miles away from where I live now served as the PNW Regional Judging Center. Well known judges Gary Baker and Wil Chantry (owners of Baker and Chantry Orchids in Woodinville), Maurice Powers, Jim and Ken Woolery, Carl Montgomery amongst a host of others were active participants in the Tacoma Orchid Society (and the associated "Species Club" and "The Seedlings" (a club for the younger growers which I became the first "president") Maurice Powers was our mentor. Orchids seemed so much more exotic way back then, growers had passion, wanted to share their knowledge and trade plants, the orchid shows a huge production. Gone now is that passion, those judges and the knowledge of those days seems to have faded. Shows are no longer the huge production that they used to be. Now they're small displays the sellers put up, most of the space left for plants looking to be sold.

I miss all that. I especially miss all of those great people!

Coincidentally, I received a message on FB today saying that the Tacoma Orchid Society "disbanded" on December 31st, 2022.

 

[big923cattleya]

Each judging center already has a Training Coordinator for the Center.
In turn, there is a National Training Coordinator. That person or position is in place.
Each judge from student to Senior is required to get 16 hours of training per year, 8 every six months. Most of that occurs at the center through talks given by orchid personnel. But you can attend for example, AOS webinars as one example of training hours.
All those training items plus discussing each student and associate judges progress is discussed at each centers semi-annual business meetings. Only accredited personnel attend those.
All lot of what you mention should not be going on. Talking bad about plants and exhibits. Team captains or judging team captains should control that.
Judging clerks are NOT part of the judging team, they are clerical only, assistants if you will. It is hard to keep an eye on them if they are off making comments.
Bill

 

[big923cattleya]

I should have added that the ribbon judging process at a show is extremely informal. It should in no way be equated to AOS judging in any way shape or form. So what clerks say about an exhibit or plant means nothing! Absolutely nothing.
On ribbon judging teams, we have AOS certified judges leading or captaining a team. We often are forced to have an AOS judge lead a ribbon team made up of them and club volunteers. Head clerks, Spotters and Ribbon clerks are the three types of clerks.
I for one like to keep my clerks involved on a limited basis. I want them to feel included, important, hopefully they will volunteer year after year. We need them to.
At a typical show we can not afford to take a lot of time to look at individual plants. We may have anywhere from 40-80 or more things to look at. Often times we have at most 2 hours to do that before the show opens to the public.
I am very lenient in awarding ribbons. I look at them as incentives for society members to bring in their plants to make a nice society exhibit. Sometimes a white Cattleya might get a blue ribbon because it was the only white Cattleya entered for ribbon judging. Other win ribbons because they are the best of those 4-5 entries in a particular class of plants. We encounter browning flowers all the time, especially up here where they are cold damaged from bringing them in. If a class has quite a few entries, most judging teams award multiple seconds or thirds. Are any of these AOS awardable, probably NOT.
But please keep in mind that ribbon judging is hugely different then AOS judging.
I have a clerk up here, I see him in Akron and Cleveland. He is constantly building up his personal plants within his clubs exhibit!! So much so I had to warn him about his behavior last year. I tried to explain to him why he can not do that. Did he remember. No!!! He came to monthly judging last week with a single flowered bulldog Paph. He was making remarks about his plant, just how good it was.
Judging decorum kept me form getting rid of him. My team captain is suppose to do that. I was just about to say something to this guy, but he walked away.

 

[Tom Reddick]

My local society has definitely been in decline, I've lived here 11 years and didn't actually join and get involved until last year when meetings resumed post-COVID. I went to their orchid show every year but the people manning the recruiting booth were so unfriendly and dismissive that I didn't bother trying to join until one of our judges talked me into giving it a chance. A few other younger (30s-40s) people joined at the same time and we've all banded together to get involved in show planning and modernization (web presence, social media, electronic payments, etc.) but there is resistance and resentment from some of the older members of the board who want to keep doing things the way they've always been done. Luckily the president and several other board members have been supportive and we are making at least some headway into joining the 21st century but I do wonder if it will be possible to sustain the local society model as us Gen X/elder Millenial types become the old folks.

I wish you good luck with that and I hope it goes well. If I had more time to take the long and patient route, I would have liked to effectuate that kind of change here, but the resistance was surprisingly fierce.

Curious to know if this is an issue in your area, but in Texas in general a big problem for many botanically oriented hobby groups is that garden centers, and other venues in general, have become dramatically more expensive to rent than in the past for a number of reasons (less government grant money, higher real estate costs, COVID-driven/accelerated repurposing of facilities etc.)

When I was in the Houston Orchid Society in the 80s and 90s, we got the big room at Hermann Garden Center, which could seat well over 100 people, for something like $5 a month on a long term lease. Many of the major Houston flower groups had similar arrangements and we all had our set date and time each month for the long term.

Those days are long gone. After COVID, I did a lot of research here in the DFW area for both meeting and show venues, as did some other members, and generally we were finding $150 per afternoon for monthly meetings and $1,200 for a 2 day show was about as good as it was going to get- with most options in the suburbs.

That doesn't seem so bad on the surface of it, but when you consider monthly dues for most groups are $30ish and most societies are now well under 100 members, all of a sudden rent is sucking up all your dues. And shows have not been profitable in years- though that has changed in a post-COVID world.

So a Zoom-based future with occasional in-person gatherings (say 2-3 times a year) not only offers a great deal of opportunity to access interesting speakers or play existing recorded presentations without the cost of bringing someone in live, but given what it costs just to get 20 or more people in a room together, it seems to be to be a necessity. But like you say- hard sell, even if you offer to do all the transition work.

 

[Tony]

We're lucky in that regard, the state garden club owns a building that we are allowed to use at no cost and we also have a partnership with the local zoo who has hosted the yearly show at no cost for 20+ years. Our yearly dues are only $20 per person or $25 per family. The downside to this is that some of the older board members are very resistant to any kind of fundraising, we had an auction at the end of last year using member donations plus the collection of a former member but it was a fight to convince the board to do that instead of just giving away the collection plants because some of them thought we had too much in the bank already.

 

[big923cattleya]

The Judging Center moved recently from the Matthaei Botanic Garden to Washtenaw
Community College.
Matthaei did not charge us anything for rent but the Judhing Center made a yearly donation of $500.
Washtenaw is charging us $100 a month with December free.
We left Matthaei primarily because of lots of staff turnovers. They are on the second new Director in three years! Their Liason booking our event was not reliable. We judge on the third Saturday every month. Over the last 3 years she has given away our room forgetting we had a yearly contract in place.

Yearly Society dues for Lansing Orchid Society is eight bucks!!! $8. If you pay $100, you can get a lifetime membership which I did back in 2018.
The Michigan Orchid Society dues are $15 a year.

 

[My Green Pets]

Best and thanks for listening, Tom.

Hey Tom, in response to your initial post, I think you made the right move.

I'm breeding plants and just started getting my first seedlings back this year. Everything I put up for sale was gone almost as soon as they came in. I've been documenting the whole process for years and my social media community was chomping at the bit to grab a seedling by the time they were ready. Troy Meyers' reservation list suggests well over 50 flasks were sold from my first cross. Hopefully I am on the right track to having a small, at-home, online business myself.

I think there are some big international shows that will continue, but the small ones do seem to be petering out. Maybe orchid conventions—'cons'—will be the new thing. People love going to cons. Could just be a branding issue.

Denver's society is dwindling, and I think Boulder's is going to disband as well. The Rocky Mountain Judging Center is down to 4 judges I think. If there are others, I never see them.

Yet the Denver Orchid Grower's Facebook page is nearly 900 strong. So the interest is out there and I think with the recent plant craze, it's only going to increase. Social media is the way to go for now, in my opinion.

 

[Julius]

What an amazing exchange here people. The posts here shed light on many aspects of internet benefits and detractors. I work in health care and can't believe the effects of both good and absolutely horrific misinformation courtesy of how individuals manage to promote themselves on various internet venues. Evaluating the source of information has always been paramount, but it is utterly overwhelming to do so at times these days. When I joined the local orchid society in the Niagara Region in the 90's, even though the membership was relatively small, I truly enjoyed the interaction with the group. Even then, the executive meant very well in doing their best to encourage membership and involvement in the community, but my people pleaser personality just found their very reasonable pressure too much, so I gave up going to meetings after the several years that I enjoyed. I wanted to contribute in my way, helping new members find info, share extra plants, help members find members with similar interests, contribute to showing plants at meetings, to share the joy and let other members know how much I appreciated their sharing of orchid culture and experience.
I was however very busy in my practice and the pressure to do more for the group was a big reason I left, feeling I couldn't give the group what it wanted (be secretary, manage the library, set up show displays in other regions, join other clubs etc) so I felt I shouldn't be there. I couldn't commit to monthly meetings and executive meetings so I committed to helping build the societies display at several shows. Even though you had to persevere that 10% that were rude, self important and disrespectful of others as pointed out, the 90% of truly amazing individuals made it very rewarding. One of my favourite memories was tearing down a display and being concerned that someone's ribbon must have fell off near one of my plants, only to be shown it was for a brassavola I had grown. What had become a long weekend entrusted with the care of other members favourite orchids felt amazing. I will be going to my first show in years next week in Toronto, and it will be interesting to see the displays after reading the posts here. Years ago the displays were always a great blend of societies, vendors and individuals. I too remember the joy of seeing those wonderful people who kept us interested in growing. I also remember the heartfelt loss when you learned that one had passed away, but as it was mentioned above, that was all part of the experience. I wish I could mention and honour all of their names in memory, along with the invaluable pearls of wisdom that each one shared, but I would worry of leaving one out, or the transgressing some internet courtesy I am unaware of.
In final, you wonderful contributors here have given me hope that orchid growing and sharing will continue in some manner, and ultimately, as in every other aspect of our lives, it is up to us as individuals to evaluate what information we see everywhere as best we can, and to share responsibly. Thank you to everyone here for sharing

 

[tenman]

I have been saying the judging system needs revamped for over 20 years. Our local center here has such a long litany of malfeasance, misfeasance, and downright corruption it is too long for a single post. I have spoken with two different AOS judging chairs and an AOS president about it. The result? Nothing. It's an old boy/old girl network which deserves to die like the dinosaur it is because it steadfastly refuses to acknowledge its faults or attempt to change. The training? Ridiculous. I'm asked to identify plants at shows for judges - and have had on numerous occasions to identify not only the genus but the family an orchid belongs to when a judge has made an erroneous identification. The general level of knowledge in judges here is minimal at best. And they have no interest in learning to cover areas of ignorance, a fatal flaw. Not a surprise given that the primary qualification for judging here is being convivial and "getting along". NOT knowledge, commitment, and an impartial attitude. A two year training would be better than what there is now - if it actually taught something. Years of being an "applicant" instead of actually entering the program while they use the applicants as gofers and decide whether they LIKE them enough. No other qualification required or accepted. Getting rid of the cult of personality would be a first necessary step, and the AOS codifying and homogenizing the program to oversee the process would be a good start. It needs to be redone from scratch. Of course no one wants to be a judge - I have three friends who quit in the midst of the program for the above mentioned reasons, they were so disgusted. When a longtime judge and center chair looks at a plant and says "oh, it has a clonal name [in pencil] - it must have had an award. We can't do anything til we find that". And everyone is afraid to contradict her because (their words) she's such a b*tch, there is NO impartiality - and the lack of knowledge - and hubris - is staggering. And another tells a plant owner who brought a plant to judging "oh, we can't find much on it (an uncommon but recognized, previously unawarded species, for which at the time there WERE a few references on the web) - bring it back when it has some awards and we'll take another look at it. [?????] Isn't that THEIR job?? Another plant of the species was awarded not much later at a different judging center. I could continue the list, but it gets old after the 15th or 20th incident. To say nothing of the AOS awarded plants I see at which I have to shake my head as they were clearly (due to damage, misshapen flower, or other misqualifications) unawardable - sometimes laughably so. Not even eligible. Fully 1/4 to 1/3 of the awarded plants in one specific genus are mislabled. But no one cares when it is brought to their attention. But when certain commercial growers or longstanding breeders bring in any plant - no matter how unqualified - it is simply awarded without question. Final quote from a judge about another judge's plant: "well, she went to the trouble of bringing it in - we should give it SOMETHING." And they did - a lesser award than previously bestowed on the cross, but this time on a plant with smaller, fewer flowers no better colored or shaped thant the awarded one. Caveat: I am aware there are some good, impartial, and knowledgeable judges and I personally know a couple. They are far in the minority and do nothing to change or improve the system which is so egregiously flawed. They can't because no dissension is acceptable.

 

[big923cattleya]

Man, I have to say that in brief, you do not know much about the AOS judging system. I won’t get into all of your erroneous statements.
What center are we talking about?
I have no idea as to who you are or where you are from but I find your post to be narrowly construed.
Is the judging system perfect? Of course not! Are there a few bad judges, of course there are! But to sit on the outside and take pot shots at a system that you find fault with is disappointing to put it nicely.
Malfeasance and corruption? My goodness.

I can say that I have been in the judging program for 28 years. First NY metro, then Tampa and now Michigan. And in all of those years, I can honestly say I have known only one horrible judge. He was eventually removed from the system. I think it speaks well of the judges in general! Over my years, I have probably shared judging duties with well over a hundred of them. Most have been a pleasure to work with! But to sit on the outside and make assumptions about corruption, I find that unfortunate.

At this current time, I have a few judges that I regularly work with up here. I am always positive with them. If I find them to be weak in some areas, I work with them, council them, teach them without be littling them.
So much depends upon what center you come from. Some centers are stretched pretty thin. Some centers have judges that fly in to attend judgings. Some centers are no blessed with great Training Coordinators. Some centers and judges may have fallen into bad habits but to claim only a few are any good is laughable.
I am in the program because I deeply love orchids and I love judging. Why not work hard to get in the program to improve things rather then condemn it?

What makes you think that speaking as an outsider to Judging Chairs or an AOS President would make a difference? Why listen to you?

 

[Ray]

Man, I have to say that in brief, you do not know much about the AOS judging system. I won’t get into all of your erroneous statements.
What center are we talking about?
I have no idea as to who you are or where you are from but I find your post to be narrowly construed.
Is the judging system perfect? Of course not! Are there a few bad judges, of course there are! But to sit on the outside and take pot shots at a system that you find fault with is disappointing to put it nicely.
Malfeasance and corruption? My goodness.

What makes you think that speaking as an outsider to Judging Chairs or an AOS President would make a difference? Why listen to you?

As a moderator, let me state that you do not know the gentleman, and you are out of line to personally criticize him for his opinions about a situation you are unaware of.

 

[Happypaphy7]

Thank you, Ray.

 

[kc6847]

I didn't do a good look of what was said beforehand on this thread, all I can say is I just don't like the AOS judging standards, especially for Cattleya alliance plants. My eyes might just snap off my optic nerve the next time I hear "Isn't this flower so beautiful? Its a perfect circle!" from growers/hybridizers for the 100th time. I'm a relatively young orchid grower (23) who has been growing for around 17 years and members in my society of similar age agree. Having standards to judge by is necessary to make awarding fair but some of the most beautiful plants (in my opinion, such as the lowland form of Catt. maxima coerulea) would be considered inferior by AOS standards. Until these standards change, I have been refusing any offers to become an AOS judge and only breeding plants that appeal to my own sensibilities.

 

[Ray]

I think that’s a general problem with any conformation standard. Someone, somewhere convinced others “this” is better, and it went from there. It can be just too arbitrary.

I draw a parallel with show dogs - both collies and Irish Setters (which we showed) were moving toward tapered, pointy heads with no “forehead”. Then it was noted that they were inadvertently breeding for smaller brains. Someone was smart enough to reverse the trend.

 

[JayeL]

I draw a parallel with show dogs - both collies and Irish Setters (which we showed) were moving toward tapered, pointy heads with no “forehead”. Then it was noted that they were inadvertently breeding for smaller brains. Someone was smart enough to reverse the trend.

I used to show Weimaraners... and I thought it was a race to the bottom of the intelligence ladder between them and Irish Setters in the gundog group...

But would still never trade them in for any other breed... They kind of addictive like paphs...

JL

 

[BrucherT]

I didn't do a good look of what was said beforehand on this thread, all I can say is I just don't like the AOS judging standards, especially for Cattleya alliance plants. My eyes might just snap off my optic nerve the next time I hear "Isn't this flower so beautiful? Its a perfect circle!" from growers/hybridizers for the 100th time. I'm a relatively young orchid grower (23) who has been growing for around 17 years and members in my society of similar age agree. Having standards to judge by is necessary to make awarding fair but some of the most beautiful plants (in my opinion, such as the lowland form of Catt. maxima coerulea) would be considered inferior by AOS standards. Until these standards change, I have been refusing any offers to become an AOS judge and only breeding plants that appeal to my own sensibilities.