Catt loddigesii or harrisiona?

[Rick]

Ok I'm sure this plant is messed up, but Brian Monk needs to weigh in on this.

I originally picked it up as C.leopoldii 'alba X cherry' with very trashed label with correction attempts on it. The grower is in my society and has thousands of Catts with at least a vague memory of everything he has, but periodically he brings in novices to help in his annual repotting bonanza and things can get "edited". He's pretty sure this was supposed to be a species plant.

When it bloomed out it obviously wasn't a leopoldii and really is a close match for loddigesii. Note plenty of shared letters in the name for a messed up tag.

Now that its bloomed a couple of seasons in a row (during summer) and it has a strong perfumey fragrance, its looking more of a match for Catt. harrisoniana (aka Catt. loddigesii var. harrisoniana). Also given that this flower turned into a blend of light, dark, and splash characteristics, I'm not sure if the 'alba' parent wasn't really a pale caerullea rather than clean white.

C. harrisoniana has narrower petal elements than loddigessii, and the albas and caeruleas are generally even more extreme (including imparting the "bowlegged" ventral sepals).

So Brian, If you are still planning your DNA work on this species, I'd be happy to send you a sample.

 

[Brian Monk]

That is NOT harrisoniana. The lips of hybrids using harrisoniana as one parent are similar to this, but if it were a primary, I would think that the labellar ridges would be more pronounced.

It may be a primary hybrid, but I don't know which one. Certainly leopoldii may be one parent, but the lateral lobes on the lip don't form the points that I typically recognize with leopoldii hybrids. Also I would consider amethystoglossa, as well as primaries between other bifoliates and intermedia! I see the hint of reticulation on the midlobe of the lip, which might rule in granulosa and schilleriana as well.

Lastly, you must consider the idea that this is not a primary. Thogh I don't know which. What I do know is that it is beautiful!

 

[Yoyo_Jo]

It certainly is beautiful...:drool:

 

[NYEric]

I know I need to work on my Catt species knowledge but that is a wild mix for sure!

 

[SlipperFan]

I agree -- beautiful!

 

[Rick]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/orquidario_oro_verde/4177570312/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/35101596@N03/5297462720/

Here's a pic of a coerulea and punctata varieties of harrisoniana for comparison.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...131&ty=130&page=1&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:11,s:0

http://www.flickr.com/photos/luizfilipevarella/5806289495/

The loddigessii lip is much more like my flower in the above pics.

I'm wondering if it's some type of cross of loddigesii and harrisoniana (all under the name of loddigessii

I sent some pics back to the grower to see if it will jog his memory.

 

[John M]

I've grown both species over the years and seen many more where I used to work. FWIW, when I saw the photograph I immediately said to myself that this was a NoID hybrid, not a species at all.

The original grower needs to do a MUCH better job of supervising his help. The world's most spectacular collection can be ruined by well-meaning: but, careless newbies trying to help. 'Been there and done that! I've had GREAT helpers (ie: Wendy) and I've had spectacular disasters (name(s) withheld).

It's SHOCKING but true, that sometimes the most intelligent, well-educated people cannot be trusted to work alone on two different plants without ending up switching the name tags by the time they're done.....or, potting a bunch of stuff and not replacing tags until there's 6 or 10 plants grouped together, all without any tag at all. Then of course, it's often impossible to tell which is which! Grrrrrrrr!

 

[paphioboy]

Very interesting colouration, whatever it is... I think its a hybrid too.. Harrisoniana and loddigesii I've seen here are all pink..

 

[Shiva]

Pretty but a hybrid.

 

[JeanLux]

Very nice, but because of the coloration I tend to agree for a hybrid!!! Jean

 

[Rick]

Also I don't think the fragrance is matching up either.

This has a very strong perfumey/floral smell you can pick up from a few feet away. This doesn't match any descriptions I've found for straight loddigesii/harrisoniana.

Fortunately I just got it for a few bucks at the society summer auction. It's pretty and will look good in my wife's office. If I can get a good name for it I can trade it out later.

 

[Rick]

The original grower needs to do a MUCH better job of supervising his help. The world's most spectacular collection can be ruined by well-meaning: but, careless newbies trying to help. 'Been there and done that! I've had GREAT helpers (ie: Wendy) and I've had spectacular disasters (name(s) withheld).

I can't give him too much trouble. The orchids are a hobby. Multiple thousands of plants, divorce, failing business...... something has to give.

But I appreciate everyone's comments to help me decide what I want to do with this plant.

 

[Candace]

It's a beauty and worth the bench space, id or no!

 

[SlipperKing]

Rick,
To me it looks very much like the naturally accuring hybrid between C.leopoldii and C. loddigesii pictured in The Brazilian Bifoliate Cattleyas and Their Color Varieties by Jack Fowlie

 

[Brian Monk]

Just weighing in on the links to the photos.

The first and second are harrisoniana.

The third is harrisoniana. I have never seen a tre loddigesii coerulea. Ever.

The last is a loddigesii.

 

[Rick]

Just weighing in on the links to the photos.

The first and second are harrisoniana.

The third is harrisoniana. I have never seen a tre loddigesii coerulea. Ever.

The last is a loddigesii.

That's just what's out there Brian. With all the talk of intergrades and both un-natural and natural hybrids is the type form too narrowly defined?

 

[W. Beetus]

Beautiful color, whatever it may be!

 

[Brian Monk]

That's just what's out there Brian. With all the talk of intergrades and both un-natural and natural hybrids is the type form too narrowly defined?

That is a reasonable question. But the types, as described in the original descriptions and as described by the Brazilian taxonomists now, are distinct.
What I think is a bigger problem is that intergrades that exist in culture are artificial, and have been created by well-intentioned individuals who were trying to include the "best of both worlds" in a single flower. The problem IMO was created by Veitch, when he combined the two into one. The change was not accepted, and the RHS views the two as distinct. But many others didn't.

This is the rough equivalent of crossing phillipinense and a laevigatum, and calling the result by one name or the other, instead of an intergrade. THis is wrong (IMO) for several reasons, but mostly because the two are distinct, and are separate for specific taxanomic reasons that are recognizable to even the minimally trained eye. The creation of these intergrades to create better flowers is something that we encourage, but when it is done the creation is a hybrid, and must be noted as such.

It wouldn't be the first time that "what was ot there" was mislabeled or grossly misidentified.

 

[Rick]

The creation of these intergrades to create better flowers is something that we encourage, but when it is done the creation is a hybrid, and must be noted as such.

Yes we've had this debate before for closely related paphs. I think compounding this is the use of peoples names instead of location names to label source specimens. Unfortunately a lot of these problems were started around 1900 when it seems like collection and breeding agendas were different from what they are now. The competition to name or produce the every lovely hybrid show flower really discouraged good science. It would be great to see GPS locations tagged with new specimens, and use them to keep things straight instead of relatively meaningless clonal name system that's been in use since the turn o the century.


Catts may actually be in worse shape than paphs in this respect since they were hit more commercially and developed into mericlones successfully.

 

[SlipperKing]

Brian, How many Cat harrisoniana have 7 flowers?