Dehydrated near rootless P sanderianum seedling

[kc6847]

I've been dealing with this near rootless P. sanderianum seedling I received from Sam and I forgot to water it one day beforehand. The leaves became somewhat wrinkly, the bottom leaves have become droopy, and it has not grown a single root in the three months that I've had it. I've cut watering in half a month ago since I unpotted it and noticed a lack of roots and moisture in the middle of the media but I'm a bit concerned that the top of the media dries out too much for root production. Do you guys have any luck growing this in sphagnum? I find that sphagnum mixes dry more evenly but I'm a bit scared since most reports of multiflorals in sphag long term result in death. Below is an image of it a month ago when I unpotted it.

 

[Justin]

It looks salvageable. I would put it in a 2" pot with a mix of bark/sponge rock/sphagnum, and keep moist not wet. A little top dress of sphagnum will help with any roots that emerge. I also recommend using a kelp product when you water every week. I have found kelp to stimulate roots in Paphs when watered onto the rhizome. Ray here sells it or you can get some at your local hydroponics store. Kelpak Superior Biotimulant

 

[Theodoreorchidking]

How is it doing? Did anything work?

 

[kc6847]

The thing is pushing out a new leaf but I'm still not seeing any root growth which worries me. I placed a layer of sphagnum on top burying the seedling further two weeks ago, we shall see. My mature sanderianum is starting to push out some root tips but I'm afraid it might abort like my other new multifloral paph roots.

 

[Theodoreorchidking]

For your mature one what temp and humidity do you keep it at. I have one but I haven't had it long enough to see if it is going to flip out and die . Good luck and thanks

 

[Kalyke]

Gosh I don't want to say anything that will kill it for good, (so take this with a grain of salt) but I had a Druryi cross which was nearly dead and rootless. When it went downhill, it was an adult and gave one flower spike. Due to terrible sickness and an incompetent care-taker (in 2016), I lost my orchid collection, all but 4 plants, and upon finding their near dead state I treated them the same. I kept it so wet that it should have died. Several times during this, I thought it was dead and nearly threw it away. Get media that does not need to be changed often like rock wool rather than moss. Water every single day. Drain water out when needed. Use root stimulant. (I know it is not kosher for orchids, but Fertilome Root Stimulator and Plant starter solution worked and did not kill orchids). It also took at least 3 years and up to 6 years to look decent again and stop growing without medical attention. But I did not start the root stimulant until later like 1 year till it looked good. Also, get some plant inoculant, and use orchid fertilizer, but also make sure to drain the old salts out. It takes a while, Your goal is to (hope) that a new growth starts (whole new plant, with roots of course). The old leaves may be sacrificial. In other words don't give up-- the road back might be long. It now has 3 growths and I feel it is near to blooming.

 

[kc6847]

For your mature one what temp and humidity do you keep it at. I have one but I haven't had it long enough to see if it is going to flip out and die . Good luck and thanks

The mature one is being kept at room humidity (30% average), overwintered with temps ranging from 58 minimums. The thing seems to be doing well, just prone to soft rot if watered too often. Thankfully I caught it fast enough to stop it from progressing.

 

[Kalyke]

Talk to Ray Barklow. When he started to do semi hydroponics he says that the first orchids he tried it on were paphs. I tend to think that green strap leaf paphs love to have "wet" if not damp roots. I really think it is interesting that you state that the Sanderium is prone to "soft rot?" Now I know that the green "mottled" leaf paphs that live on forest floors do tend to rot if too wet. I am now having great success keeping them in constant moisture. With enough airflow to be sure-- which is why I have them in semi Hydro.

 

[spujr]

The mature one is being kept at room humidity (30% average), overwintered with temps ranging from 58 minimums. The thing seems to be doing well, just prone to soft rot if watered too often. Thankfully I caught it fast enough to stop it from progressing.

I have a bunch of these rootless sands from OI as well.

This is just my opinion so take it as you will: I would try to find a way to increase the relative humidity around the plant. 30% seems to low and may be difficult for the plant with a constant extreme dry to wet cycle. If you can increase it to 75% (humidifier) that should help, but you'll also want to make sure there is good air circulation. Air movement and relative humidity can sometimes be in conflict with each other when you live in a dry place, which is why I like to grow in the black tents with fans and humidifier.

I agree with Justin in his suggestions. Inocucor (Ray has this) does a good job in promoting root growth.

Of course be patient. Like Kalyke said you might lose some leaves. Try to not fiddle with it too see if the roots are emerging. I haven't tried looking to see if mine have started rooting yet.

 

[Tom Reddick]

About a month ago I took bare root delivery of all of Sam's remaining sanderianums- and with the warning there were root issues and a fair price to match FWIW. It was an unusual situation and I have the backstory - but the good news is it is reversible. And many of the ones I have are far worse off than this one- but so far I have not had any losses, and indeed there is already some leaf growth.

Justin's advice is spot on. The only variance with how I am handling mine is that I am not using sphagnum- but I am doing a light misting to the top of the mix every other day just as I do with compots to ensure that the very top layer of the mix does not completely dry out, and also remains moist only and not sopping wet. As spujr notes- higher humidity helps too, but 60% is about as high as I can manage in my home growing environment and that has been sufficient so far.

Sanderianums can be very slow to root, and the plants can get shockingly big on very few roots. I repotted a couple of blooming size seedlings this spring into 4 inch pots and both of them just had 3-4 roots that were at most 3-4 inches long (a guess since they were curled up in the shape of the smaller pot). In the past when dealing with flasks, it has not been uncommon for me to pot up plants out of compot in 2 inch posts with 3-4 inch leaf spans and still living on their flask roots.

You are very right to keep close watch on the foliage- that will tell the tale, and sanderianum is pretty quick to express displeasure which means if you act quickly there is usually time to correct the course. It may take months for yours to put out new roots- but as long as the leaves look good then you know you are on the right track.

Since your water is keeping the media moist in the middle and the plant is showing a bad reaction after just one missed watering- I think misting or using just a bit of sphag to help keep moisture in the top layer of mix is your best first step. And if you use sphag, I would pull out and soak individual strands and lace them throughout the top later of the mix- don't wrap the root ball in it, but rather just spread it around to help keep the entire top layer of mix moist.

 

[noochka1]

I got a very similar NBS (LOL!!!!) sanderianum about 6 months ago. It had not a single living root and the medium was horrific. I figured it was probably going to end up dead, but I did what I always do with new plants and soaked it in a KelpMax solution for about an hour and then planted it in straight pumice in semi-hydro. It definitely took a minute to adjust to the new medium but after 6 months it seems pretty happy. I've got new active roots and a new leaf has appeared. I'm in S. Florida, so my temps are high and humidity is almost always over 65%.

PS - I didn't notice the name on the tag until after I posted this. Absolutely no disrespect is intended. I get great plants from OI. This one was definitely an exception, but it's doing just fine now.

 

[spujr]

Yes, I should clarify that I knew what I was getting from OI before ordering so wasn't intending to imply poor quality from Sam.

 

[Theodoreorchidking]

What I have found that works is to use pumice and small bark. Then were the rot nubs are put a single/ two layers of rock wool cubes: im sure spagnum moss would work. After that put a layer of the bark mix on that. When the roots grow out maybe switch out for medium bark so there is less of a chance for rot. The rock wool should get enough air flow is the top layer of bark is not to thick. A heat mat might speed this up.

 

[kc6847]

Update: added kelp extract to watering regimen, lost largest bottom leaf. After knocking it out of the pot accidentally today, found another black shriveled root tip, so the growth rate is just one root per month. Existing roots unaffected. It seems like anything sanderianum related has these issues since now my other multiflorals without sanderianum are pushing new roots in open air without issues. I decided to wrap the remaining top inch of root ball with sphagnum and kept the remaining medium grade bark mix underneath. If this doesn't work, I'm throwing it in pure sphagnum. This thing infuriates me to no end.

 

[DirGo]

A lot of advice has already been given here, but there is one aspect I am missing a bit: fix the plant in his pot with 4 stakes, two at each side of the plant, to make sure there is no wiggling of the plant to avoid any fresh weak roots being damaged. Specially if a plant is using his very last energy to create a new root, you don't want to loose that by shaking of the plant. In a greenhouse , where you don't move your plant around when watering this might be less important, but when growing indoor, you will for sure pickup containers for watering and I have found that shaking/movement is bad in that critical phase of recovery. Good luck with all sanders mentioned in this post. Keep us informed how it is going !

 

[big923cattleya]

I agree. Lower light, I use straight sphagnum for a media under these conditions. I mist them whenever I can keeping the humidity way up. I keep them staked with a single stake. It takes anywhere from 8 weeks to 24 weeks to see significant root growth with most Paphs.

But you should address the low humidity levels long term. Unless you want to specialize in succulents. Long term levels of 30% will not be good for orchids in general. My home is 20% during the winter, but 48-65% around my light carts. Trays have standing water all the time as the plants sit atop egg crate. Humidity levels now are running 58-85%. I go from one extreme to the other but that 30% is troublesome.

 

[Theodoreorchidking]

Amy signs of roots?

 

[kc6847]

Amy signs of roots?

I finally got a new flush, so far no aborting as of now but its a bit too soon to see. I think I've nailed the issue down, the top layer of bark dries too rapidly while the interior of the pot dries too slowly. The smaller seedling has now been repotted into a mix of 50/50 sphagnum and bark, which causes water to be wicked evenly throughout the media. My larger one is also throwing out roots after repotting into orchiata power plus in a slotted plastic pot with a 3" mound of sphagnum as top dressing covering part of the base of the newest growth. It seems that sanderianum and its primary hybrids are still the only ones with this problem. I'll monitor if any other multiflorals have this issue as I build the collection but so far, here are the ones that don't have this problem:

rothschildianum and roth heavy hybrids
phillipinense
parishii
anitum heavy hybrids

Still monitoring stonei for this but we shall see.

 

[kc6847]

Update: I did not nail the issue down.

The new longer roots aborted root tips (again). The longest healthy root completely rotted off. If the next flush aborts again, I'm throwing it in pure perlite and 100% humidity. I swear to god this thing is the bane of my existence. Meanwhile, the new sanderianum seedling I got with Bionic Man has been growing great roots in bark for the past month. Maybe I just got a runt.

 

[Theodoreorchidking]

Update: I did not nail the issue down.

The new longer roots aborted root tips (again). The longest healthy root completely rotted off. If the next flush aborts again, I'm throwing it in pure perlite and 100% humidity. I swear to god this thing is the bane of my existence. Meanwhile, the new sanderianum seedling I got with Bionic Man has been growing great roots in bark for the past month. Maybe I just got a runt.
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Hahaha I have one that looks identical. It pains me that is doesn't do well and I'm going to keep it till it dies . The set back will probably add another 3 years for flowers
Good luck