Old Gen Roths Photos
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Dou Fang was wild collected
Green Valley was Rex x Mt Millais
Fly Eagle was apparently a Charles E x Borneo if I remember correctly
Song Sparrow no idea.
There has been a lot of bogus seedlings of Fly Eagle x Dou Fong that were sold, all extremely ugly with the exception of 2-3 plants, by accident. Definitely not the parents used.
In Europe there was a trend too to sell unnamed roths from Taiwan as Fly Eagle x various names a couple years ago.
I saw myself Dou Fong a long time ago in Taiwan, it was an exceptional wild collected roth for sure.
Green Valley was Rex x Mt Millais
Fly Eagle was apparently a Charles E x Borneo if I remember correctly
Song Sparrow no idea.
There has been a lot of bogus seedlings of Fly Eagle x Dou Fong that were sold, all extremely ugly with the exception of 2-3 plants, by accident. Definitely not the parents used.
In Europe there was a trend too to sell unnamed roths from Taiwan as Fly Eagle x various names a couple years ago.
I saw myself Dou Fong a long time ago in Taiwan, it was an exceptional wild collected roth for sure.
The only Green Valley x Dou Fong I ever saw that looked like Dou Fong is this one, by Fabrice Lacour....
He was very lucky, as it is really a beauty.
Dou Fong, there is a photo in Paphiopedilum in Taiwan II I remember, but the flowers are very similar.
Except two tiny divisions that are barely alive in the world, the entire plant perished in the Taiwan floods in 2009.
He was very lucky, as it is really a beauty.
Dou Fong, there is a photo in Paphiopedilum in Taiwan II I remember, but the flowers are very similar.
Except two tiny divisions that are barely alive in the world, the entire plant perished in the Taiwan floods in 2009.
astro
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Is there any Dou Fong divisions still alive to this day? It would be tragedy if it had been lost forever. I have heard that it produced exceptional flowers comparable to Mont Millais.
There might well be 1 tiny one, possibly two, but it will be years before it blooms, and it is not in Taiwan for certain... When I mean tiny is leafspan of 15-20cm max... So it will be a long while if any of those 2 by 2 different growers blooms, and if they don't die before...
emydura
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Here you go.
Dou Fong
Fly Eagle
Green Valley
Song Sparrow
Dou Fong
Fly Eagle
Green Valley
Song Sparrow
emydura
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I have a seedling of Dou Fong x Z2135. I believe z2135 is a Rex x MM plant. It has 2 gigantic growths which I keep thinking will flower each year, but they just keep growing. Maybe next season as I always say.
That may well be Green Valley x Dou Fong....
In Taiwan, it is very weird, but the rothschildianum clonal names are changed by anyone getting pollen or divisions, to their own, usually with a reference to the pedigree/type. Green Valley would not be a clonal name another Taiwanese would keep, as it is a company name.
As an example, Iweishen/ShenLiu excellent TN-SixFay is the same plant as NTP-266-Six, and the same as TK-SixFay, there is a fourth name I forgot.
They can rename the pollen/division, or they can even rename the seedlings if they buy them... That's how we end up with 266 x Z2135 or that kind of things, or ro-9 x ro-4, which can well be Bear-9 x Bear-4. The only way is to ask the photos of the parents, in that case, for the SixFay, we get the same photo from 3 different growers/sellers, with 3 different cultivar names...
The pollen/pod order is not always respected too either.
Another deep mystery is the Taiwan inch. When many nurseries in Taiwan say something is 2in, it is 6cm. The Taiwan inch is 3.03 cm....
Don't get your hopes up. I had some of these "Z2135" crosses from Taiwan and the flowers were pretty lousy. I still have one that is marginally OK.
Like Xavier said, you can be certain any plant with Fly Eagle, Dou Fang, or Green Valley on the tag is not true to the name, with the majority having poor flowers.
I tend to think that the reason Justin and I did buy the Mt Millais at a point was that we were just pissed off by those ' selected seedlings' or 'selected divisions' that are not even remotely close to the nice photos...
For me, I bought batches and batches of roths, I did breed mine since the 90s from my own motherplants. In my own breeding, they all would be indeed the progeny of the parents, all the ones that bloomed were obviously correct. A couple suppliers, In Charm, Shen Liu/Iweyshen, and Paph Paradise, the same. Paph Paradise comes first in flower quality, then ShenLiu, then In Charm ( who had some very nice roths... even if not up to day standard, honesty has to be acknowledged too... and they were from his parents, no doubt when they bloomed) All plants bloomed between the parents.
The remaining, there has been so many old generation roths, seedlings made before the Taiwanese had any good roth, proliferated flasks, wild capsules, 'just roth because it is expensive today' 5 years later, etc... and surplus stocks sold in bulk, nurseries closing, etc... and none of them ever appeared on the market as ' well that's generic roths' or Charles E x Borneo, or whatever. It is obvious that all of them were sold, and obvious that they were sold with a name tag that is attractive and profitable. It is a business, it is not a high level intellectual not-for-profit exercise to grow and sell plants... So some put their losses on their balance, some others will find a way to turn potential huge losses into a profit.
For me, I bought batches and batches of roths, I did breed mine since the 90s from my own motherplants. In my own breeding, they all would be indeed the progeny of the parents, all the ones that bloomed were obviously correct. A couple suppliers, In Charm, Shen Liu/Iweyshen, and Paph Paradise, the same. Paph Paradise comes first in flower quality, then ShenLiu, then In Charm ( who had some very nice roths... even if not up to day standard, honesty has to be acknowledged too... and they were from his parents, no doubt when they bloomed) All plants bloomed between the parents.
The remaining, there has been so many old generation roths, seedlings made before the Taiwanese had any good roth, proliferated flasks, wild capsules, 'just roth because it is expensive today' 5 years later, etc... and surplus stocks sold in bulk, nurseries closing, etc... and none of them ever appeared on the market as ' well that's generic roths' or Charles E x Borneo, or whatever. It is obvious that all of them were sold, and obvious that they were sold with a name tag that is attractive and profitable. It is a business, it is not a high level intellectual not-for-profit exercise to grow and sell plants... So some put their losses on their balance, some others will find a way to turn potential huge losses into a profit.
emydura
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I have heard the same thing. My seedling does come from Shen Liu, who as Xavier has said, is one of the most reputable of the Taiwanese nurseries. So I am still hopeful.
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Does this rank of Tiawan reputable growers apply to other paphs as well? I remember getting a sanderianum flask of InCharm x Shin-Yi back in 03', which at the time was advertised as the best cross available but nothing came close the parents for me and I haven't seen anybody else getting rewards from that cross.
In theory it should have... Did you get it directly from either In Charm or Shin-Yi?
Tom-DE
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I just pulled out the tag on mine and I have the same cross....I bought a tiny seedling from John(Parkside) on July 26, 2003...
Here is a photo of 2021 blooming--the final petal length is almost 32 inches. Not sure what you expect/think but it is an awardable quality in my eyes....but as you know, I don't grow it for that. Can you show me a photo of yours?
I don't know your domestic source, but mine is from the same flask that John brought back from Taiwan personally.
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Very good sanderianum indeed, what I would expect from the cross. I have a division of Shin-Yi.
You need to be careful as well to get the flasks directly from the grower and insist on that. It is not uncommon, to say the least, that some traders will swap a bit the tags before exporting in Taiwan...
Tom-DE
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Can anyone post a photo of the Borneo clone(FCC)? TIA
emydura
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Tom-DE
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Thank you for the photo, David. Here is the "Borneo" X self that I have...
The 'Borneo" clone could not match (some of) the current ones in terms of flower size, flower count, and form, but one great thing about the "Borneo" clone is the compact plant size.
The 'Borneo" clone could not match (some of) the current ones in terms of flower size, flower count, and form, but one great thing about the "Borneo" clone is the compact plant size.
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