Newly described in 2017 Paph. agusii and according to Kew Science Paph. agusii is still valid.Both very nice. I've never heard of Paph. agusii before, is this a newly described species? It appears to be closely related to P. acmodontum.
I bought it as a young plant from Orchidhouse Asia in Auetal, Germany.Where did you aquire it?
The plant is from Exotique Plant Company (Michael Tibbs): Exotic Plant CompanyAny information about the plants origin?
It’s normal for this dark wart spots in the measuresianums. Some more than others.That venustum is unusual. Not seen albo-viride with spots before. The downswept petals are also unusual.
Any information about the plants origin?
Which then disqualify them as measuresianum, as this epithet is only valid for the true albino form of venustum (i.e. those with no traces of anthocyanin - red pigmentation).It’s normal for this dark wart spots in the measuresianums. Some more than others.
Yes been there, done that.Which then disqualify them as measuresianum, as this epithet is only valid for the true albino form of venustum (i.e. those with no traces of anthocyanin - red pigmentation).
OMG. Leslie, haven't we recently been here? (Or maybe it was in a discussion of fairrieanum fma. bohlmannianum?)
No matter what, I fear, we kind of start to sound like the two fusty old men in The Muppet Show (Waldorf and Statler), going through the same routines over and over again: Statler and Waldorf - Wikipedia
The answer to that you'll find in my update in the thread: P. henryanum 'Yellow Valley Joy' BM/SOK 2022Kudos on the blooms but… what happened to that hebryanum?
I have now finally had some time to do a bit of homework - and, Leslie, I wouldn't in your shoes take recourse to invoke Braem's authority in this matter. Braem clearly and unequivocally asserts in the 2nd Edition of his comprehensive "The Genus Paphiopedilum", that " Plants offed as albinos of P. venustum sometimes show, although faintly, the remnants of reddish or brownish pigmentation. However, only those clones lacking any red or brown should be accepted as albinos" (p. 266, 2016). I can't distinguish any red or brown, however faint, in the photo in his book of this colour form (p. 389, ibid.).Yes been there, done that.
But for the sake of explanation and judging many of these (plus my intensive research and paper on the varieties of venustums), let’s elucidate further:
The initial discovery circa 1890’s of the ‘albino’ forms had these tiny spots in the base of the petals (2-3) and further line breeding produced ones with no spots and up to 10 spots (average 3-5 spots).
These spots were on the hairs or warts of the flowers, and were not part of the red anthocyanins on petal cells of the normal flower inheritance. This meant that they bred true as ‘albinos’ in yellow or alboviride progeny.
As a result, these alboviride forms with dark spots were considered by breeders and some taxonomists as the measuresianum forms.
If you want to get technical, the leaves of these albinoviride (with spots) do not have anthocyanins nor do these types produce colored type progeny when selfed.
In addition, even the occasional rarely found measuresianum flowers with no spots, when selfed, will produce green flowers with these spots in progeny.
Although some taxonomists and diehard fans champion the ‘albino’ term for var measuresianum, it really should be considered ‘alboviride’ as it’s a green flower and not white.
And finally… In almost every picture (but one) of books depicting this form, from Braeme to Grus, as well as awards from around the world, these spots were very much present.
Stephen might be right in assuming, that the original description was imprecise or lacking, but Leslie clearly errs, when he states:I, too, believed that measurianum had no spotting but thats not clear from the original description.
Braem quotes an anonymous, contemporaneous source on the November 28th, 1893, meeting of the Royal Horticultural Society, where Measures exhibited the colour form for the first time: "an extraordinary and beautiful form with white and green flowers, without any of the brown and red seen in the type" (p. 266, 2016).The initial discovery circa 1890’s of the ‘albino’ forms had these tiny spots in the base of the petals (2-3) and further line breeding produced ones with no spots and up to 10 spots (average 3-5 spots).
I can only second Jens' standpoint and in addition here is an excerpt of the preface of Olaf Gruss' book 'GENUS PAPHIOPEDILUM ALBINO FORMS'....................Gruß in his lavishly illustrated book on "The Genus Paphiopedilum. Albino Forms" shows photos of as well flowers without as with anthocyanin specks - but what the latters pertain, he clearly sees them as an abberation of the albino colour form, fma. measuresianum, as he explicitely makes the following qualifying statement in the photo caption: "shown as forma. alba [sic] but with black spots" (p. 181, 2008). A view that is fully in accordance with Gruß' overall concept of albinism in Paphiopedilums, which he presents in the introduction to the book (p. 8, ibid.)..................
.......I hereby rest my case. And henceforth I will discount my plant from belonging to the realm of that treasured botanical colour form, 'fma. measuresianum' - resigning myself to the use of the horticultural epithet 'fma. alboviride (Hort.)'.......
Hey Leslie, what an amazing article ! Very interesting reading material !I will attach a draft PDF copy here for your review (album breeding from pp.26-30):
Leslie, I dont know which was first ....albino flowers with these spots or such without these spots. I even don't know whether these spots inherit themselves or not. But in my eyes only flowers without these spots can be named as Paph. venustum var. measuresianum........The initial discovery circa 1890’s of the ‘albino’ forms had these tiny spots in the base of the petals (2-3) and further line breeding produced ones with no spots and up to 10 spots (average 3-5 spots).
These spots were on the hairs or warts of the flowers, and were not part of the red anthocyanins on petal cells of the normal flower inheritance. This meant that they bred true as ‘albinos’ in yellow or alboviride progeny.
Dr. G. Braem writes in his book 'PAPHIOPEDILUM' A monograph of all tropical and subtropical Asiatic-slipper-orchids (1988) [p.141] referring to Paph. venustum var. measuresianum :........ As a result, these alboviride forms with dark spots were considered by breeders and some taxonomists as the measuresianum forms.
In the above named book of Dr. Braem only flowers without spots are shown. But you are right O.Gruss shows in his book 'GENUS PAPHIOPEDILUM ALBINO FORMS' also some flowers with dark spots, but in the underline of the photos he writes ..... 'Shown as forma alba but with black spots'.And finally… In almost every picture (but one) of books depicting this form, from Braeme to Grus, as well as awards from around the world, these spots were very much present.
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