Paph Barbilights '#16' & '#17'

[Ross]

#15

#16

 

[biothanasis]

Cool both of them but i think I like the second one more cause it is more greenish!!

 

[KyushuCalanthe]

Nice flowers, gorgeous photos.

 

[goldenrose]

:clap: :drool: Charming Barbi dolls!!

 

[Ross]

Cool both of them but i think I like the second one more cause it is more greenish!!

I like the color more on #16, too, but the overall shape is only OK. It will probably be on the sales table on Saturday at the OSM meeting. #15 is a borderline keeper. Positives: It's small vigorous growth habit (It's in a 2 1/4" pot.) and a fairly decent overall shape. Negatives: color, narrow petals, and the characteristic barbigerum dip in the center of the dorsal.

 

[etex]

I like the first one better. I adore the shape and the color combination!! It looks like the perfect fall slipper!

 

[tim]

Ross,

I like the first one better. I actually think the petals aren't bad for a barbigerum hybrid; it appears from the photo to be a nicely rounded flower. the second one does not

In discussion with a few other people about what to do in cases like this with novelties that don't do exactly what you want them to do, we've all seemed to come to the conclusion that the best bet is to sib and hope that the traits you want segregate out together - the small plant size and the nice round complex flower. the problem with crossing back to barbigerum is you lose shape, and crossing to a complex you gain size...

any thought? What are your next steps?

 

[Ross]

Ross,

I like the first one better. I actually think the petals aren't bad for a barbigerum hybrid; it appears from the photo to be a nicely rounded flower. the second one does not

In discussion with a few other people about what to do in cases like this with novelties that don't do exactly what you want them to do, we've all seemed to come to the conclusion that the best bet is to sib and hope that the traits you want segregate out together - the small plant size and the nice round complex flower. the problem with crossing back to barbigerum is you lose shape, and crossing to a complex you gain size...

any thought? What are your next steps?

The Barbilights are a second generation novelty made by Arnold Klehm. The original cross was Barbi Playmate = Kay Rinaman x barbigerum. This was then crossed to a medium sized complex called Nulight to create Paph Barbilight. I suspect that Mr Klehm did this to neutralize the barbigerums dominance of shape while still getting a certain number of small growers. At one time Oak Hill had tray loads of this cross, so I selected as many as I could afford, picking for small growth habit.

I'm guessing a sib cross would create a certain proportion of flowers dominated by the barbigerum grandparent, but a percentage would continue toward the classic complex shape, with some of those being of smaller growth habit. I have done a sib cross of Paph Barb Hella.I anticipate more dominance of barbigerum in this cross, but again, a few will have the right combination. I have attempted a few Barbilight crosses to other smaller species, but have not done a sibbing or complex x complex cross, yet. Both are worth considering.

 

[NYEric]

From the description of the pot size, I'd be interested in getting one. THanx for posting.

 

[tim]

I guess I feel that by crossing to species you're going to lose the complex shape. maybe that's less important to you as a breeder than I think...

have you considered having some of your flasks treated with colchicine or oryzalin? (esp. of Barb Hella, which would be diploid if made with Hellas 'Westonbirt' - you made yours with 'Sunset', right?; a novelty with Nulight in it is probably aneuploid and may breed reluctantly.) I'm not sure if there are stateside labs still doing that, but it would create something most interesting and obviously 4n, ready to breed on.

Interesting questions...

 

[slippertalker]

Where's #17? the title shows 16 & 17 but the pictures are 15 and 16....oke:

 

[Ross]

I guess I feel that by crossing to species you're going to lose the complex shape. maybe that's less important to you as a breeder than I think...

have you considered having some of your flasks treated with colchicine or oryzalin? (esp. of Barb Hella, which would be diploid if made with Hellas 'Westonbirt' - you made yours with 'Sunset', right?; a novelty with Nulight in it is probably aneuploid and may breed reluctantly.) I'm not sure if there are stateside labs still doing that, but it would create something most interesting and obviously 4n, ready to breed on.

Interesting questions...

Yes, I used the 'Sunset' cultivar for Paph Barb Hella.

You make some good points, Tim. Harold Koopowitz has described in his writing a two pronged approach. One approach involves working with small complexes to produce smaller ones, while the other involves building a complex from the ground up, using small species. The third approach is to use a combination of the two ideas, by adding small species to complexes as a first step, then crossing back to the complex as Arnold Klehm has done in the Barbilight. At this point do you continue with more complex breeding to improve the flower form and cull out the larger growing plants, or introduce another small species to keep the size down?

I think that some species might be able to do both. Check out Hadley Cash's article in the most recent Orchid Digest regarding Brachy influenced complexes. My thinking runs somewhat along those lines except with mini's rather than standard complexes. The introduction of small growing Brachy's may help widen the petals and round out the form while keeping the plant size small, especially if you use niveum and godefroyae, which are both small plants. Time will tell.

 

[Ross]

Where's #17? the title shows 16 & 17 but the pictures are 15 and 16....oke:

Oops, my goof! These are 15 & 16, but I can't figure out how to change the title.

 

[tim]

yes adding brachys to the mix would be most interesting. a problem with breeding brachys is that when crossed to non-brachys, the overall quality of the grex is very poor (just like most inter-sectional hybrids). That having been said, i think history would show us that at least a few are outstanding, and you'd probably get something pretty special.

another issue would be the probable sterility of these brachy crosses, something certainly white complex breeders have battled with for some time.

i think the idea of crossing back to another species is a poor one, and will result in non-complex flowers. if that's what you're shooting for - novelty breeding of non-complexes, rather than trying to achieve a complex flower on a small plant - then go for it! certainly that's up to the breeder entirely.

I guess that's why there's more than one pollenium...maybe you should put the Garibaldi pollen on it...

 

[fibre]

Can't get enough of your Barbylights-pictures! The variation is very interesting.

I myself love the characteristic barbigerum dip in the center of the dorsal.
If you kick away some of your wavy clones one day, please let me know ...

I like your thinking about breeding and the way you are going. I'm looking forward to your next steps!

 

[Ross]

Tim, I agree with you 100% that putting another species on it will result in a backward step flower wise. The only reason I would use it would be to pound the size back down a little further. At this point, I probably won't use #15 for anything, but just save the pollen and grow it on another season to see how it looks, then.

As for Garibaldi......I've got some other Paphs that are closer color-wise that I'm thinking about.

 

[goldenrose]

Oops, my goof! These are 15 & 16, but I can't figure out how to change the title.

even as a moderator, I don't think it can be changed or haven't figured out how that can be done, a more experienced one would need to give me some input!

 

[SlipperFan]

I don't see how you can improve on the first one.

 

[Bobc]

very nice.

 

[SlipperKing]

I'd keep #15 and ditch the other Ross. Interesting read breeding guys thanks