This was in a Facebook group ‘Paphiopedilum’. I asked where she got it. They are apparently somewhat readily available.
Paph rungsuriyanum avail online
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Tom-DE
Well-Known Member
legally here?
mrhappyrotter
Grand Chupacabra
I've seen hybrids available online which lead me to believe they are legally available here in the USA in some capacity. It is/was my understanding that the legality of the hybrids is tied directly to the legality of the species. However, I haven't really been out hunting for this species.
I have not seen the species itself offered from any reputable vendors, though. If you do find a legal option from a reputable vendor, I'd love to know about it. I assume the prices will be higher than what I'm willing to pay for something I might kill, so most likely it will be quite some time before I give this species a try.
I also know they've been quite available on the not so legal back channels for quite some time, but that's the case with a lot of newly discovered species.
I have not seen the species itself offered from any reputable vendors, though. If you do find a legal option from a reputable vendor, I'd love to know about it. I assume the prices will be higher than what I'm willing to pay for something I might kill, so most likely it will be quite some time before I give this species a try.
I also know they've been quite available on the not so legal back channels for quite some time, but that's the case with a lot of newly discovered species.
I don't think they are "legal". but then again it's not illegal unless you get caught right? and to get caught means someone of authority has to care about what you are doing.
They are not legal anywhere outside country of origin according to CITES. Thai vendors have made flasks and hybrids but...
I found one on line vendor that said they had 12 in stock and $42 each. Delivery time was early July.
This species was being openly sold at both Tamiami and Redlands this year. The vendors made no attempt to hide the plants. Plants were on the table and in full view. If any country, including Thailand, has issued a CITIES to export this species and USDA allowed the plants into the country after inspection, then the plants are legal here. Yes, it is accurate the last I heard Laos was not happy. However, all one needs to do is claim
they found the species in Thailand or Vietnam (known locations are very, very close to the borders with both countries), and Laos can make as much noise as they want but are powerless to stop the export unless they enforce at their own borders. This is what happened with the first plants labeled as Phrag. andreettae, which was never, ever in Ecuador but was legally exported due a claim
the plants were found there. Using this logic, all plants labeled as andreettae are likewise illegal as they were illegally brought into Ecuador. It is a poorly kept secret that USDA goes to both the Taniami and Redlands shows. Not sure what to think about all this as the technicalities of this species are not clear. Plants and hybrids are everywhere, in the US, Europe and throughout Asia.
Best,
they found the species in Thailand or Vietnam (known locations are very, very close to the borders with both countries), and Laos can make as much noise as they want but are powerless to stop the export unless they enforce at their own borders. This is what happened with the first plants labeled as Phrag. andreettae, which was never, ever in Ecuador but was legally exported due a claim
the plants were found there. Using this logic, all plants labeled as andreettae are likewise illegal as they were illegally brought into Ecuador. It is a poorly kept secret that USDA goes to both the Taniami and Redlands shows. Not sure what to think about all this as the technicalities of this species are not clear. Plants and hybrids are everywhere, in the US, Europe and throughout Asia.
Best,
Nelson Wong
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There are tons of rungsuriyanum being sold on ebay, Facebook groups and even orchid websites.
It's hard to identify their origin, flask or picked from Thailand and Laos.
To be realistic and pragmatic . Honestly not much is being done. It's hard regulate such a small plant when there are bigger things like drugs and guns being smuggled.
So I would say if you really want one and see it sold on ebay, Facebook group or website. Roll the dice and buy it. Maybe you will get it, maybe you will lose your money.
It's hard to identify their origin, flask or picked from Thailand and Laos.
To be realistic and pragmatic . Honestly not much is being done. It's hard regulate such a small plant when there are bigger things like drugs and guns being smuggled.
So I would say if you really want one and see it sold on ebay, Facebook group or website. Roll the dice and buy it. Maybe you will get it, maybe you will lose your money.
Tom-DE
Well-Known Member
Is it legal to own one? That is my only concern...not the availability. Sure, everything is okay until you get caught. Would you take the risk of being fined or put in prison for a plant? It only needs one agent who decides to take on the case for whatever reason, like you are too happy...
Be careful if you own one here in U.S.......just saying.
Be careful if you own one here in U.S.......just saying.
Nelson Wong
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I am certainly not encouraging it. But do it at the individual's own risk.
It's illegal to posses a CITES apx1 species or even a part of a species without a permit from USFW. Applies equally to plants and animals. Just because they are not enforcing the law today for certain species doesn't mean they won't tomorrow.
On top of CITES is the Lacy Act requirement holding the American purchaser responsible for any law broken broken by anyone in the supply chain of the species.
I saw it in a Fb group online. I’ve asked her what country she’s in, to see if it’s US. She’s not responded.
However, if country A issues a valid CITIES export permit for rungsuryanum, and a proper import is in place here in the US, and USDA allows the plant into the country, then it is legal here. This is apparently what happened twice that I know of, as plants were being openly sold at the Tamiami show and at Redlands. Thus, the Lacy act is not applicable since the exporting country and the US legally allowed the plant to move across borders and there is no way to determine if the plant was nursery raised. There are thousands of seed raised rungsuryanum in Thailand, as well as flowering size plants of dozens of primary hybrids. We have all seen the photos. There is nothing illegal about that.
Holds t
ru
Holds true for hybrids, too. I have a rungsurianum x fairianum cross…it’s gorgeous but it stays in the greenhouse.
"and there is no way to determine if the plant was nursery raised"? Wouldn't that cast doubt on the validity of a CITES certificate indicating the plants were legally artificially propagated?
Nelson Wong
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It's not like every plant have a CITES certificate associated with it, like each plant with the QR code for the CITES cert. More importantly, if someone wants to sell an illegal plant, they can print and fake a CITES certificate so the plants look like they are artificially propagated. Do vendors provide the CITES certificate for plants? My experience is many of them do not.
Again not encourage obtaining plants that are illegal.
But raising the question - how do you know your plants are artificially propagated or illegal picked, raised, then sold? The reality is that we can't and it near impossible to identify. Not saying regulation should be abandoned because regulation is needed to ensure ethnically raised plants, but we as consumers rely on the vendors transparency and not all vendors are transparent and always ethical because making a profit in the competitive world of orchid sales is very difficult.
Again not encourage obtaining plants that are illegal.
But raising the question - how do you know your plants are artificially propagated or illegal picked, raised, then sold? The reality is that we can't and it near impossible to identify. Not saying regulation should be abandoned because regulation is needed to ensure ethnically raised plants, but we as consumers rely on the vendors transparency and not all vendors are transparent and always ethical because making a profit in the competitive world of orchid sales is very difficult.
This part is important for Americans....
"but we as consumers rely on the vendors transparency and not all vendors are transparent and always ethical."
The Lacey Act directly requires purchasers of CITES listed plants to do their due diligence and verify the legitimacy of all parts of the supply chain.
Actually that's almost impossible to accomplish. And that is probably the intent of the laws authors.
Remember the burden of legality proof is on the accused.
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Tom-DE
Well-Known Member
Rude? You have "no idea"!
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Tom-DE
Well-Known Member
That is not smart to make a public announcement! Where is the snitch?
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